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daveyboy
May 5th, 2004, 01:27 PM
Shouldn't gate symbols be unique everywhere? Each of the gate symbols represents a constellation that can only be seen from Earth, but these same symbols appear on gates throughout the universe. Since a constellation will only look like that particular shape if you are on Earth, or at least on a relatively straight line between Earth and that constellation, then these become meaningless shapes at every other gate location. I realize that this would make getting home rather difficult since the address would be different from every location, and so perhaps the gate builders did it for simplicity, but then wouldn't they have picked constellations as seen from one of their own worlds rather than those seen in Earth's sky? Has this been discussed?

spg_1983
May 5th, 2004, 01:34 PM
Shouldn't gate symbols be unique everywhere? Each of the gate symbols represents a constellation that can only be seen from Earth, but these same symbols appear on gates throughout the universe. Since a constellation will only look like that particular shape if you are on Earth, or at least on a relatively straight line between Earth and that constellation, then these become meaningless shapes at every other gate location. I realize that this would make getting home rather difficult since the address would be different from every location, and so perhaps the gate builders did it for simplicity, but then wouldn't they have picked constellations as seen from one of their own worlds rather than those seen in Earth's sky? Has this been discussed?
this has been discussed at length, heatedly at times. my personal theory and some agree with me, is that the symbols are not based on the constelations as seen from earth. they are based on some Ancient system that we have no understanding of. the reason the constelations look like the symbols is because ancient man saw them on the gate first and then drew them with the stars. if you think about it it makes sense. ancient man would have seen the gate as something holy and of the gods since only the gods used it so they worshipped it and since stars and the sky in general have often played big part in religions it makes sense that they would connect the gate with the sky.

Storm
May 5th, 2004, 01:40 PM
"Shouldn't gate symbols be unique everywhere?"
I agree. And here's another twist: Each planet has its own unique symbol, the always necessary 7th symbol to mark the destination. Without each of those symbols on each gate, how does one travel anywhere?

I'm not trying to ruin the fun or be nitpicky, it's just a question that occurred to me.

Storm

(aka Kjev1)

Ugly Pig
May 5th, 2004, 01:41 PM
Shouldn't gate symbols be unique everywhere?
Yeah. They should. But they're not. Nobody can say why with any certainty. In the original Stargate movie the symbols were different between the Earth and the Abydos gates.

Mr Prophet
May 5th, 2004, 01:44 PM
I agree. And here's another twist: Each planet has its own unique symbol, the always necessary 7th symbol to mark the destination. Without each of those symbols on each gate, how does one travel anywhere?


The unique symbol is the point of origin. It marks where you started and is essentially the 'finished' button. Moreover, Daniel's use of Apophis' Gate in The Serpent's Lair and the fact that the Antarctic Gate's symbol is different to that of the Giza Gate implies that you just have to hit the PoO for the Gate, rather than the planet.

daveyboy
May 5th, 2004, 01:50 PM
"Shouldn't gate symbols be unique everywhere?"
I agree. And here's another twist: Each planet has its own unique symbol, the always necessary 7th symbol to mark the destination. Without each of those symbols on each gate, how does one travel anywhere?

I'm not trying to ruin the fun or be nitpicky, it's just a question that occurred to me.

Storm

(aka Kjev1)
No, the 7th symbol is the origination, which is why it only has to be on the gate for the planet it is on. The first six symbols combine to form a point in space, the destination (six points required to define a point in 3 dimensional space). That is why whenever they dial out from the Earth gate, the symbol representing Earth is always the last.

Teal'c
May 5th, 2004, 03:17 PM
OK, I know there're a couple of threads going on about gate-related stuff, but I wanted to start this one to put my entire theory about the gate in it (Well, it's nearly all canon, so mostly it's an explaination :P)

SPOILERS Season 7 up to Lost City, and some Atlantis.

So, let's start with Stargate basics. To turn on the gate seven symbols must be entered: 6 co-ordinates and a point of origin. The 6 co-ordinates give three lines, which intersect to give the point of destination, so the wormhole goes from PoO to PoD.

The Stargate has 39 symbols on it. 38 of these are the same on every gate, and the 39th is the PoO, unique on some or most gates (I'll get to that later). What has to be remembered about the Stargates is they are clearly designed to be mix and match. Any gate can go on any planet with any DHD.

So we come to the first bump. Using the DHD. Now, the DHD features 38 symbols in 2 rows and a big red button (BRB). The most logical thing would be that the 38 symbols are the 38 standard symbols, and you would enter your 6 symbols to dial, then hit the BRB.

Unfortunately, the majority of times they seem to dial 7 symbols, followed by the BRB. That would mean they press the PoO symbol on the DHD, which would mean that each DHD is missing one symbol, which means you can't dial any address featuring that symbol. That doesn't make much sense. It would also make the DHDs very unmixable. [Sorry, couldn't come up with a better term :P]

There have been times when the logical 6 glyph dialing has taken place, but also there have been 4 glyph, 8 glyph and even 9 glyph dialings. In addition, with the 7 glyph dialing it's not normally a PoO symbol pressed 7th, it's normally one of the standard 38, which makes even less sense.

So, in this instince, we'll have to accept that the logical solution is correct, 6 glyphs followed by the BRB, despite the common 7 glyph dialing.

Now, on to some explaining. Why are the 38 glyphs the same on every Stargate? Well, thanks to SPG_1983 (God, I hope I god the number right! :P), the following theory does make sense: The symbols were simply made up by the Ancients (They could be some sort of old script in their culture, which could be where their sounds came from). Ancient man knew about the Stargate, and mapped them out in the sky, which isn't as difficult as you'd think. The stars would have changed over the millions of years since the Stargates were built, but not over the last 10,000 years by much.

Point of Origin is different to the Point of Origin symbol! The Point of Origin is wherever the Stargate is, it changes if you move the gate. The PoO symbol stays the same, it just represents wherever the Stargate is at that time.

Uh oh... I'm starting to blank... I had some other stuff I wanted to say! :P Ah, I remember!

Point of Origin symbols unique? Maybe not so... So far we've seen only 4 unique PoOs: The A symbol, the one in Solitudes, the Abydos symbol, and the one in The Gamekeeper. However, due to production constraints, they can't make a unique PoO symbol for every gate and have, in fact, shown the A symbol on several gates... an explaination follows.

Go back to the mixability [Sorry, someone give me a better term! :P] of the Stargate network. We've already established that any Gate can be used on any planet, and DHDs are all the same, and thus easy to produce. Having each gate have a different 39th symbol would make them harder to produce en mass.

So what if the A symbol is a standard PoO? You'd still be able to tell, since it wouldn't be on the DHD (We've already discussed that). It would make gates easier to interchange. And Atlantis (Both the show and team's patch) use the A symbol still... The other symbols could be designed for special gates, for example the Solitudes symbol was for Earth's original gate, which had an Ancient outpost. The Taonas gate could also have had a special symbol. The Abydos gate could have been taken by Ra from the same planet he found the Lost City tablet...

Hmmm... I think that's all, for now.

What I would like is some logical, thought-out responses, maybe try and pick some holes in it.

What I don't want is someone to come along and say "Well, I say an episode last night where they dialed 7 symbols, so you're wrong" because I've already explained that, DON'T DO THAT! (I have to drill it in, but someone will say it inevitably... :P)

spg_1983
May 5th, 2004, 03:37 PM
wow that is awesome, the most concise, clear and easy to understand summary of the whole issue (thanks for the nod by the way) another word instead of mixability: interchangability. Kudos to you! :p

ShadowMaat
May 5th, 2004, 04:08 PM
You're WRONG, Snake Boy, completely and utterly WRONG!

I just had to say that. ;)

Atum
May 5th, 2004, 05:29 PM
Unfortunately, I don't think TPTB thought it out as thoroughly as you. Nice work...

bcmilco
May 5th, 2004, 06:07 PM
Considering how long it would take to populate the entire galaxy with gates I would assume that they would fix or upgrade gate features over that period of time, upgrade hardware components, etc. The different PoOs may be a way to tell what "version" of the Stargate was being used without having to open it up...

That might also be another way of explaining the inconsistency with the number of points dialed (6 or 7).

ShadowMaat
May 5th, 2004, 07:35 PM
Actually, I'm just gonna agree with whatever Snake Boy said. It sounded really logical right up until the bit with the math in. :P I can't process nunbers, my head was built for words. Plus, I recall being more or less in agreement with him about this on a similar thread on the old board.

Sam_o_Neill
May 8th, 2004, 12:55 PM
You've really thought about that a lot haven't you? :p
I do agree with you that it would of been easier to have the >o symbol as the PoO symbol of every DHD would be simpler then the DHD's could be moved around wherever they want.
The only problem with that is that in the episodes when SG-1 go to another planet they always press a different symbol for the PoO like in Shades of Grey it is Triangulum and in Within the Serpents Grasp(I think) they use serpens caput which are both normal symbols which are on every gate.....

I might not be making much sense cause i'm tired and i'm starting to confuse myself so I think it'll be best if I stop :p

Teal'c
May 8th, 2004, 01:32 PM
You've really thought about that a lot haven't you? :p
I do agree with you that it would of been easier to have the >o symbol as the PoO symbol of every DHD would be simpler then the DHD's could be moved around wherever they want.
The only problem with that is that in the episodes when SG-1 go to another planet they always press a different symbol for the PoO like in Shades of Grey it is Triangulum and in Within the Serpents Grasp(I think) they use serpens caput which are both normal symbols which are on every gate.....

I might not be making much sense cause i'm tired and i'm starting to confuse myself so I think it'll be best if I stop :p
Yeah, I know they do that, I think I pointed that out up there, but since we've already agreed that only 6 symbol dialling makes sense, then that doesn't really matter :P

Chevron_nine
May 8th, 2004, 05:18 PM
It's been a really long time since I've seen CotG, but in CotG didn't O'neill, or someone else draw the >o POO in the sand and Teal'c recognised they were from earth. How would that be possible if the symbol is on multiple gates?

Also, If I recall properly, in earlier seasons doesn't daniel usually look at the DHD to determine the POO before dialing. Why would he need to determine the POO if it's the big red button?

I say it's 7 symbol dialing and the big red button is like the send button on a cellphone.

It's possible one or more of the symbols on the gate are just extra symbols which are never used in gate addresses but have some other purpose. The DHD's are like universal TV remote's which are missing some of the buttons your original remote had:p

LtLisa
May 8th, 2004, 07:11 PM
the POO could be a smilie face or a dog or whatever...its just the symbol for the button to be pressed; if I change the images on keys on my keyboard they're still going to send the same information to my computer.

so, I think the POO thing you mentioned works

BTW, when did they only dial 3 and 4 chevrons? I can't remember

Mr Prophet
May 9th, 2004, 12:12 AM
Some good work there, Teal'c, although I remain unconvinced that the symbols still relate to a coordinate system. If they represent the syllables in a planets Ancient names...Well, in terms of mathematical linguistics I suppose that wouldn't be impossible for a civilisation like the Ancients, but it seems like a rather unnecessary effort.

Teal'c
May 9th, 2004, 10:05 AM
Well, what happens is the symbols represent points in space. But these points move due to stellar drift, so when the DHDs are updated the coordinates change, but the symbols stay the same. i.e. Orion could repsent 007,044,123 (Just taking carthesian planes as an example, I'm sure the Ancients did it differently) and then whatever Orion was representing moved due to stellar drift, the gate would still be using Orion as 077,044,123 and when it updated Orion would then target 079,041,122 or whatever the new coordinates were.

So really, the 38 symbols just represent these coordinates, they're not the actual coordinates themselves, and so can be named anything, like Tao or Sh...

Teal'c
May 9th, 2004, 10:06 AM
BTW, when did they only dial 3 and 4 chevrons? I can't remember

I had a list somewhere, but I've lost it. In Demons though Sam dials 9 symbols! :P

Mr Prophet
May 9th, 2004, 11:11 AM
So really, the 38 symbols just represent these coordinates, they're not the actual coordinates themselves, and so can be named anything, like Tao or Sh...

Strictly it's not a coordinate model; if the symbols represented three-dimensional cartesian coordinates, then you'd only need one. Rather, two points define the line which intersects them both, and the meeting of three of these lines constructs a destination point.

But anyway, my point is that whatever you call them, the mathematical intricasies of divising a system of labels which would spell out the names of every planet in the network by their addresses would be incredible to the level of pointless.

Sam_o_Neill
May 9th, 2004, 12:54 PM
Yeah, I know they do that, I think I pointed that out up there, but since we've already agreed that only 6 symbol dialling makes sense, then that doesn't really matter :P
LOL, OK 6 symbol dialling it is. But I would still like an official answer from TPTB so I could be sure....:p

shelsfc
May 9th, 2004, 02:18 PM
Wow! Fair play to you Teal'c, that all makes a lot of sense. Thank you for making it easy enough to read for those of us who can't usually get our heads around it! :o

Teal'c
May 10th, 2004, 01:05 PM
LOL, OK 6 symbol dialling it is. But I would still like an official answer from TPTB so I could be sure....:p
I would too! :P

ShadowMaat
May 10th, 2004, 01:19 PM
Maybe the seventh symbol can be used, but doesn't have to be used. The Ancients added it on just in case somewhere down the line some group of primitive morons tried to use the gate without attaching a DHD. ;) So they built a token seventh symbol into the pattern, but it doesn't actually affect anything. It just makes the monkeys feel better. :P

SGSlugger
May 10th, 2004, 01:20 PM
Teal'c, you've got too much time on your hands don't you? :p

I like it the theory. I'm gonna throw a something at you though from CotG (probably not really in synch with what has been explained later in the serious though):

If glyphs are just symbols, and not the actual coordinates, how was Daniel able to map them from the Abydonian sky? Didn't he say something like:

Daniel (in Ra's hidden chamber): "I recognized some of these constallations and plotted them in the Abydian sky."

spg_1983
May 10th, 2004, 01:55 PM
Teal'c, you've got too much time on your hands don't you? :p

I like it the theory. I'm gonna throw a something at you though from CotG (probably not really in synch with what has been explained later in the serious though):

If glyphs are just symbols, and not the actual coordinates, how was Daniel able to map them from the Abydonian sky? Didn't he say something like:

Daniel (in Ra's hidden chamber): "I recognized some of these constallations and plotted them in the Abydian sky."
at that point the show was still developing and figuring out stuff and that is really a hold over from the movie. as the show has grown, its become obvious that the symbols cant really be constelations

Teal'c
May 10th, 2004, 03:15 PM
Well there's a lot of stars in the night sky, and some would be orientated similar to Earth, seeing how Abydos is between 4 and 10 light years from Earth, but he'd still be able to form them with any random paterns really. And he did say some, not all.

puddlejumper747
July 12th, 2004, 04:52 PM
I agree that you should only have to dial 6 buttons on the DHD to connect to another planet. Now concerning the episodes where we see someone dialing more or less than 6 buttons:

1) In Demons, Carter dials one button, then stops. When she continues later, we see her physically push 3 more chevrons, then the camera switches away from her. In the backround we now hear the the sound of 5 different chevrons being locked. I think it is possible that the scene we are seeing is not being played out in real time. We see Carter push chevrons 2,3, and 4; then when we jump over to O'Neill, we hear again her push 2,3,4, then 5 and 6 in the backround of the conversation. This would mean that there were indeed only 6 chevrons encoded, and that this was simply an instance when two important things were happening at once, we saw both happen one after another, and we just weren't supposed to really notice. (Whew!)

2) As for any of these supposed 3-4 total chevron addresses, all I can say is that yes, we only see them push a few buttons, but then the camera moves away for a few minutes before coming back to see them push the BRB, or we only see them pushing the last few chevrons because they have already been working at it while the camera was elsewhere.

Now I actually have a few questions (and they're all kind of linked):

1) Couldn't it be possible that in some instances if we see someone pushing 7 chevrons on a DHD, that this is intended? Couldn't the DHD simply be supplying the extra energy that Earth has so much trouble providing?

2) In the movie, if I remember correctly, Daniel had so much trouble trying to find the 7th symbol in order to dial home. (If it was really the 6th, someone please tell me, because it would make this so much easier.) Why did he need the 7th if this was simply the point of origin hardwired into the DHD? Or did he really need it, because in the beginning, someone mentioned the team being in the "Kaliem Galaxy", and "on the other side of the known universe"? Were they still in the Milky Way, and perhaps being in the "Kaliem Galaxy" meant that this is simply the point that they appeared to be in if viewing from Earth's sky?

3) (Last question, I promise.) Were the symbols on the Abydonian gate entirely different, or was it simply the point of origin that changed? What about other stargate symbols? (I seem to remember Daniel saying in There But For The Grace Of God that the symbols could change, but their order was always the same.) And if the Earth point of origin symbol was instead a standard symbol on many gates, how could Teal'c or Sha're recognize this symbol as being something of Earth?

OK, I think that's all. (Sorry.) I would be much appreciated if someone could help me figure this out or let me know what you think of my ideas.

uknesvuinng
July 12th, 2004, 06:51 PM
The alpha (Giza) gate and the beta (Antarctic) gate both use At(the A) as their POO. Solitudes is the only time the unique supposed POO was attempted, and it failed (they were also trying to dial the very planet they were on, so this in itself is inconclusive). At was used several times successfully and visibly while the beta gate was in use by the SGC. Clearly At is the proper POO for ANY gate used on Earth.

As for DHD dialing, I would go with the 7 symbol dialing; however, the DHD does only have 38 symbols, so 6 symbol dialing is agreeable assuming the DHD has the means to know where it is at the time of dialing.

We also find POO's appearing on gates that don't use that symbol for a POO. so these symbols either become useless, or represent that particular POO's location. While either is possible, it would seem more logical to use it as a non-POO symbol in other addresses, though to my knowledge we have never seen this done before. The DHD itself may be capable of changing the symbols on the buttons to correctly represent the gate to which it's attached and link the POO to the BRB (surely such tech wasn't beyond the Ancients). This is a change to my previous reasoning that gates would have limited interchangability with DHDs, but it just occurred to me, so I thought I'd share it. This also means either the 38 stay the same with the unique symbol represents the POO for the planet the gate originates, or there's minor variation in gate symbolage as you go along. Considering we've seen At (earth's POO) on at least 3 gates (Alpha, Beta, Bedrosia("New Ground")), it's possible gates have minor variation, although it's also entirely possible that the Ancients made multiple (at least 3) gates intended for Earth, perhaps even placed the second gate on earth, as the beta gate was buried before their likely departure.

Of course, this all implies that the POO is unique to locations and not gates, which makes sense. While the DHD is capable of knowing where it is, and linking that to the BRB, the gate has to be told where it is. The gate is designed solely to be a wormhole creation device, with rudimentry backup dialing features; the majority of the computing done by the DHD appliance. Since the gate uses it's location to plot the course, it would be fruitless to make the POO the "name" of the gate. Going to everyone's favorite metaphor, the phone system, the POO would be telling the switchboard where the call is incoming from. The switchboard then connects that origin phone to its destination phone. It would do the switchboard no good to know that Bob wants to call the number, it needs to know WHERE Bob's calling from. In fact, it could care less if Bob is holding the phone or Mary Sue from Altoona, it just needs to know where the phone is.

Explination of Acronyms just in case:
DHD = Dial Home Device - The pedastal-like device with 38 buttons representing stargate symbols arranged in a circle and a large bulb in the center.

POO = Point Of Origin - A stargate symbol that represents the location of the dialing gate. The POO is required by the stargate to calculate the course of the wormhole its forming, and also possibly determines power consumed to make the wormhole.

BRB = Big Red Bulb - The Red bulb in the center of the DHD that inputs the POO and commences sending the dialing data to the stargate. Atlantis Spoiler (highlight): The bulb becomes the BBB (Big Blue Bulb) in the Pegasus galaxy.

Greensilver
July 13th, 2004, 06:00 AM
This thread interested me enough to jump in, so this is, er, my first post around these parts. Be gentle.

I prefer the idea that the gate addresses go to places, not gates - so that they don't actually "dial a gate," they dial an address and and there's a gate there. As I believe was already pointed out, if they dialed actual gates, why would stellar drift matter?

Of course, there's a slight problem with that idea in that the Earth gate, for example, would be changing position all the time as the planet orbits the sun. But then, I think that's something the DHD would adjust for - given that the DHDs already adjust automatically for stellar drift, I have to imagine that it's quite possible for them to take into account planetary orbits, as well.

The fact that the gates know where they are relative to other gates makes me lean in favor of six-symbol dialing, as well. In Serpent's Lair, Daniel uses Earth as the point of origin - but if the DHD knows where it is, then it could've adjusted its point of origin automatically and all he would've had to do is hit the big red button. Admittedly, half the Stargate movie is spent looking for the Abydos point of origin so that they could dial home, but as far as I can tell DHDs weren't established in movie canon. They were probably dialing manually.

Point of origin symbols being on the stargates themselves gives me a bit of a headache, because I like to think of the stargates as mobile - mix and match, the way telephones are. Also, as has been pointed out, the Earth symbol has been shown on a number of gates on other planets. My own pet theory on that particular bit is full of big, gaping holes, so I won't inflict it on you. :)

Joe Chen
August 4th, 2004, 10:17 PM
Definitely an interesting thread as we who enjoy such sci-fi shows always want to try to get rid of our suspension of disbelief and try to explain things that just bug us like variances in gate dialing. Okay, so my few thoughts.

1. We're dialing locations, not gates. With the billions of permutations for locations, only so many have gates to connect a wormhole to. Many episodes have the locals having no clue how to use the gates because they've never managed to dial the right number of symbols, or a location the gate can connect to.

2. SG-1 have gated onto a mothership in orbit because that gate opened rather than the one on the planet they were aiming for, right before it jumped into hyperspace. Makes me wonder however, how the antarctica gate never opened before and it was always the one at SGC that would open. Hmm...

3. The At symbol on Stargates other than our home ones could be used in the dialing sequences for in-between galaxies as the Ancients must have done some various intergalaxy travel. That's why they show up on other gates. They may be locations that have the ability to go to other galaxies, which may not be inherent in various other gates. It just had become associated with the Tau'Ri because it was PoO for Earth, and if Ancients started there, then it's really more for "Milky Way". So in Pegasus or anywhere else there is a gate network, the 8th symbol (or really 7th) will be galaxy destination of At, with the 8th symbol as PoO. Much like in SGA Rising, Daniel writes out 7 symbols, pushes our PoO At over, and draws in a 7th symbol for Pegasus, so I'd imagine we'll find that symbol on several gates in Pegasus.

3a. This brings up an interesting side tangent of how did the Ancients boost power to gates to go between galaxies. Hopefully the SGA episode where they manage to get home for a bit helps explain. Otherwise, they must be juicing up a gate whenever they needed to dial an 8th chevron. "Hey, plug in the extra battery, we need to dial Pegasus."

4. In respect to the original movie or CotG, I'd go with how earlier civilizations just made constellations from the gate symbols. Look at any sky, from Abydos or Chulac or anywhere else, and you can probably find a cluster of stars in the thousands you see that looks like gate symbols. With respect to the movie, and having translated it as "Stargate" rather than "doorway of the gods", and realizing correlations to constellations, we understand that the 7 symbols of a cartouche mapped to something "out there in space". The MALP sends back data from the other side knowing that the gate is the same and a bit different on the other side, and that the trip may only be one way if they can't figure out how to dial back. That's why they needed to find the cartouche for the return trip. From there, we learned gate addresses we could dial which we knew would work, and from later episodes, we acquire even more gate addresses.

5. I'd go with 7 symbols plus BRB. The dialing computer on Earth just uses the enter key since once our 7 chevrons are locked, the gate powers and opens. With a DHD, once the 7 are punched in, you gotta hit the BRB to activate the gate (after telling everyone to get away from the gate to not get caught in the backwash of the gate opening and getting vaporized). If you know what the home gate looked like, figuring out the unique 39th symbol should be easy. Just look at the DHD and go, "hmm, never seen that one before, must be PoO for this gate". They may have not realized it was that simple in the movie or early on, since in the movie they had just started using the gate so had to learn how to dial earth, finding the first 6 and then needing the 7th symbol because it's an incomplete address to them, at least from their point of view. It must have been easier because later on, all SG teams (and seemingly just about everyone) knows how to dial Earth. Just memorize 6 symbols, and look for the PoO and you'll get home from whatever planet you're on. However, knowing that the At symbol seems to be on more than one gate, and at least one not on this planet, I'd say that really, the 38 common gate symbols may not be true, just seemed that way until we found even more gates. This would mean that not every gate in the network is capable of getting to every other gate. On occasion, you may need to use a transfer station if your gate doesn't dial another specifically, perhaps as in going from galaxy to galaxy.

Okay, that's my 2 cents. Well, probably more than 2 cents since I started babbling.

WurdBendur
August 5th, 2004, 12:42 AM
I've always assumed that the standard symbols could also be PoOs for different planets. Maybe instead of adding a unique symbol to each Stargate, the builders simply used the symbols they already had, perhaps for constellations used to locate the planets in question. There's no sense in making more until the 38 available symbols are used up. Then, when the Stargate network grew until the 38 symbols ran out, they may have made new DHDs that could locate themselves without needing the user to enter the seventh symbol.

Of course, the extra symbol for the point of origin would be on the Stargate, but it would work just like the BRB to initiate the dialing process for lack of a working DHD.

This doesn't really explain what the extra symbol is on the Stargates that use a standard symbol for their PoO, but maybe when dialing manually, the last symbol is not really the PoO. It could just be an activation chevron. This would also explain why several of the gates have the At symbol on them. It could have been a standard activation symbol, though to natives of other planets, it would simply represent the far-off world that was the home of the Gate Builders.

But I have often speculated that the Goa'uld probably brought our gate from another planet, and perhaps even put their own symbols on several of them, which would explain why the At symbol includes a pyramid. It may have originally referred to the Goa'uld and later to Earth because that's where the Goa'uld went to harvest humans and take them away as slaves.

Also, it's been suggested that most of the work is done by the DHD, including locating the PoO in space, but there have been several instances of manual dialing without a working DHD, so the gates must do more than we give them credit for.

And how exactly does any of it locate any point in space? Maybe there's something there marking it, forming a network that the gates use to locate themselves, like a galactic GPS system. That, however, is entirely speculation.

And yes, in the movie, the gate on Abydos has entirely different symbols than the one on Earth, but that's just one of the inconsistencies between the movie and the series that you have to ignore.

There are a lot of different suggestions and possibilities here, and I'm not sure which I really think are accurate. I too would like to hear some more official statements on this matter.

Osiris
August 5th, 2004, 03:04 AM
OMG This have discussed thousand times before: the PoO IS NOT the red button.
Maybe I have to repost the screencaps proving this. They always dial 7 symbols on the DHD. For Earth: Auriga, Bootes, Cancer, Centaurus, Scutum, Eridanus, the Poo + the BRB.

You're very studborn Teal'c. Bow before your GOD! :P

Mio
August 5th, 2004, 03:54 AM
I just found more evidence that says Manual Dialing should never ever work:


They couldn't manually dial out in 'deadman switch', but shouldn't the gate have had enough power stored even after That guy removed the crystal from the DHD?

VirtualCLD
August 5th, 2004, 04:18 AM
I just found more evidence that says Manual Dialing should never ever work:


They couldn't manually dial out in 'deadman switch', but shouldn't the gate have had enough power stored even after That guy removed the crystal from the DHD?
Ah, but did they know of a planet within 300 light years?
SPOILER PRISONERS





However, I will agree the whole manual dialing thing is fluky, for example, when stuck on the prison planet (Prisoners) where did they manually dial to, and was it close enough for a manual dial?

Crazedwraith
August 5th, 2004, 04:21 AM
I just found more evidence that says Manual Dialing should never ever work:


They couldn't manually dial out in 'deadman switch', but shouldn't the gate have had enough power stored even after That guy removed the crystal from the DHD?
So? The "it'll have enough power the manually dial once" was just a Nemesis Plot Device. Besides that was For the earth Gate which has a different power supply. The DHD gives the Gate just enoguh power for the dialing you want to do. The earth system draws 10% more power according to Carter in "Heroes" what if that power isn't actually used at all it just stays in the gate and permently frees up the Inner tract?

VirtualCLD
August 5th, 2004, 04:27 AM
True, it's possible the DHD prevents the gate from retaining it's charge, maybe the charge is back fed into the DHD's power supply.

aschen
August 5th, 2004, 05:00 AM
But the gate does retain some charge... I remember one time they had to manually dial the gate and they used the left over energy.

VirtualCLD
August 5th, 2004, 05:02 AM
Yeah, there are a lot of problems with that. It seems like TPTB choose to use or ignore the left over charge as is needed to fulfill the plot.

Mio
August 5th, 2004, 05:31 AM
At least they did away with manual dialing in Atlantis.

VirtualCLD
August 5th, 2004, 05:57 AM
At least they did away with manual dialing in Atlantis.
We don't know that yet. :: Quickly goes to find wood to knock on ::

Pdixie
August 5th, 2004, 06:54 AM
Givin that the DHD has 38 symbols to the gate's 39, it would make more sense to have the BRB input the Poo (do you realize how funny that sounds? Poo? :D ), but gahh, all that onscreen evidence to the contrary....

VirtualCLD
August 5th, 2004, 06:56 AM
I know it's frustrating. Someone ought to tech those prop designers about "continuity".

Mio
August 5th, 2004, 08:54 AM
We don't know that yet. :: Quickly goes to find wood to knock on ::
Ugh, Please let there be no manual dialing...

Ugly Pig
August 5th, 2004, 08:58 AM
Ugh, Please let there be no manual dialing...
What's wrong with manual dialing?

Mio
August 5th, 2004, 09:26 AM
What's wrong with manual dialing?
it contradicts much established stargate science.

Gorthaur
August 5th, 2004, 10:38 AM
I think the sysblos just represent a piont in space. and as for the dailaling (whats the word um weirdness works for now) mabe it is becasue there are only a few props and they didn't expect anyone to look that closely at them so they don't change the poo. and the teams mgiht just be hiting butons to make it look like there dialing again becasue they didn't expect anyone to look that close.

VirtualCLD
August 5th, 2004, 10:41 AM
I never understood why 6 points are necessary. Using the destination coordinate system they used in the movie, four coordinates is enough, beccause the form two straight lines. And two straight lines can only intersect at one point, no matter what. The third line is pointless.

Ugly Pig
August 5th, 2004, 10:45 AM
And two straight lines can only intersect at one point, no matter what.
Which is all well and good, if you're living in a two-dimensional universe. :p

VirtualCLD
August 5th, 2004, 10:47 AM
Even in three dimensions that's the case.

Gorthaur
August 5th, 2004, 11:00 AM
Even in three dimensions that's the case.
Mabe the acients just like to be very presice.

Metonic
August 5th, 2004, 11:30 AM
I agree with Teal'cs Theory on the DHD it makes the msot sense.
But im wondering..If there are diffrent points of Orgin, then thered have to be a Difrrent point of Orgin for everyplanet or solar symbol(mostlikely every planet) So that would actually support the idea of the BRB being the point of Orgin, because I assume if you take a stargate and dhd from planet A and but it on planet Z and planet Z was already assigned a POO then the DHD would take that POO(if it is the BRB) if not then it would assign the POO wouldnt it? Im not sure if i make sense, but to clearfy the POO is the BRB and the POO would change from planet to planet wouldnt it?

Teal'c
August 5th, 2004, 12:53 PM
I'm taking my name off my theory just so I don't have to deal with people who will simply post the following over and over again:

The BRB isn't the POO because they press 7 symbols then the BRB, thus you're wrong!!!

I can't take the stress, I'll end up with an ulser or something :P

Crazedwraith
August 5th, 2004, 01:28 PM
But the gate does retain some charge... I remember one time they had to manually dial the gate and they used the left over energy.

Ys, but that was the earth gate.Which draws 10% more power. Like i said in my post.

Crazedwraith
August 5th, 2004, 01:47 PM
I'm taking my name off my theory just so I don't have to deal with people who will simply post the following over and over again:

The BRB isn't the POO because they press 7 symbols then the BRB, thus you're wrong!!!

I can't take the stress, I'll end up with an ulser or something :P

Yes, this is because you actually haven't explained this away. Despite filmed example of people Pointing at a DHD symbol and saying this is the PoO. You have no refuted this. Thus it stands. Basically you are doing the txt equilivent of sticking your fingers in your ears and going "lalaallaalalalla" I'm not listening.

Metonic
August 5th, 2004, 08:55 PM
Yes, this is because you actually haven't explained this away. Despite filmed example of people Pointing at a DHD symbol and saying this is the PoO. You have no refuted this. Thus it stands. Basically you are doing the txt equilivent of sticking your fingers in your ears and going "lalaallaalalalla" I'm not listening.

Actually he kinda did explain it. said that in the seires some times they dial 6 sometiems they dial 7 and occansionally they dial 3,4,5, or 8 or whatever.

Crazedwraith
August 6th, 2004, 02:41 AM
Actually he kinda did explain it. said that in the seires some times they dial 6 sometiems they dial 7 and occansionally they dial 3,4,5, or 8 or whatever.
Basically he's said there examples of the possibly dialing different different numbers of symbols and thats suddenly means what i said is right. "lalalalalallalalala I'm not listening."

I would like examples of said under and over dialing please so I can check them out. (specific parts of episodes would be appreciaited)

And alos he still hasn;t refuted the fatc Carter expected to find the PoO on the DHD in "Solidutes" which she would if the BRB was the PoO.

VirtualCLD
August 6th, 2004, 04:48 AM
As far as I understand it, the BRB (or BBB depending on the galaxy) or "activation button" is NOT the PoO. It would make sense if it is, but it's not. The DHD has 38 buttons and one BRB, however, it is missing one symbol button to make it complete. We have seen on several occasions, the seperate PoO symbol on the DHD. You can also move gates from planet to planet, I'm positive we have seen/heard examples of that. This means a PoO is not specific to a planet, but most likely the gate.

SPOILERS Avenger 2.0











In order to get it right, the DHD probably does a little update from the gate network when it is activated. Maybe not, that is just a theory of mine, and it has holes.

AsgardCarnage
August 8th, 2004, 07:20 PM
to be totally sure about what the PoO is and how most of the stuff works, we would need to see how the gate acts in a few situations (none of which i can think of at the moment)

1. Have we ever seen 2 gates in the same solar system? could u gate from one planet to another in the same system?

2. have we ever seen the symbols on a gate that has been moved before and after it was moved to a new planet? because u have to remember even the gou'ld have the technology to make what looks like stone symbols to move around (think the tablet things they have, that u sue a stone to turn to the next page, sorry i dont know the names off all the tech). maybe the symbols can change (even if it is just the PoO) depending on where they are.

the way i see it the BRB is like a "go now" button, you input the 7 symbol address and then the worm hole dosn't engage untill you hit the BRB, just in case u arn't ready yet or someone is in the way of the event horizen?

So the acients built this system for everyone to use, but the really advanced races got the full system specs, because the asgurd and some other races can dial a gate with out the DHD and even with out the whirlpool thing so there are alot of things we dont know about the gates. these theries seem to be best to describe the system from what i have seen so far in the series.

sorry for long post but here's a question for atlantis to answer as the show goes on but how do u dial any gate from the pudle jumper does it have every PoO on that small keyboard or do the symbols change?

Donks
August 8th, 2004, 08:21 PM
I never understood why 6 points are necessary. Using the destination coordinate system they used in the movie, four coordinates is enough, beccause the form two straight lines. And two straight lines can only intersect at one point, no matter what. The third line is pointless.

I think the third line is necessary. I don't remember how it was explained in the movie, but using for points you would get one line, which would roughly be a particular heading from the PoO. Say there is another gate on a planet that is directly behind Abydos as seen from the Earth (no matter how far behind), then you wouldn't be able to travel to it because they would have the same address. The 5th and 6th coordinates define how far in that line you travel.

Itchnov
August 8th, 2004, 09:50 PM
I think the third line is necessary. I don't remember how it was explained in the movie, but using for points you would get one line, which would roughly be a particular heading from the PoO. Say there is another gate on a planet that is directly behind Abydos as seen from the Earth (no matter how far behind), then you wouldn't be able to travel to it because they would have the same address. The 5th and 6th coordinates define how far in that line you travel.

There have been so many discussions on this... I haven't bothered to post since old forums but here is a crappy paint pic that I think represents best how the symbols work.
http://news.mjsd1.ca/~jkennedy/stargate%20theory.bmp

I do not understand why 3 lines are required either, but perhaps there is another explanation somewhere that I haven't noticed.

GbaGuy
August 8th, 2004, 10:49 PM
Been wondering about this myself... here's my 2 cents:

Space is 3 dimensional as we all know. That means 3 numbers
(X horizontal, Y vertical, Z depth) to define a 3d point.

Each symbol could be a 2 number set that could represent any
two co-ordinate (co-ordinal?) components depending on context (location
in the dialing sequence). This (I think) would give yet more combinations.

These sets would reduce (somehow, like I know everything ;) ) into 3
lines pinpointing a region of space that should contain a gate. I would
assume the Ancient technology would be able to lock on a gate if you
point it in the right direction (seems the dispute is on how the "pointing"
works).

About that orbital stuff. With a region, I suppose the region would be
like the solar system. If you're off too much, you get a "frosty face"...

Or, (really going out on a limb here... but it's late, so I don't care) ever
notice how the animation of the wormhole twists and turns? Well perhaps
having 6, 2 number sets would define simple (X,Z,Y=0 for example) lines
to create the wormhole (easier to stabilize).

Also, we've never been told what sort of commands the computers are
giving the StarGate, I don't suppose it uses a USB connector...

kopd
August 8th, 2004, 11:53 PM
I don't know if anyone has brought this up, but toward the end of Fifth Race, as O'Neil is flying out of the gate on the Asgard planet in the galaxy Ida you can clearly see the >o symbol on the gate. I'm not sure if there is any significance to that.

Joe
August 10th, 2004, 02:37 PM
There have been so many discussions on this... I haven't bothered to post since old forums but here is a crappy paint pic that I think represents best how the symbols work.
http://news.mjsd1.ca/~jkennedy/stargate%20theory.bmp

I do not understand why 3 lines are required either, but perhaps there is another explanation somewhere that I haven't noticed.
The 7th one may by just a diffent zone

lord_rblade
September 8th, 2004, 10:41 PM
I read the first page and most of the second (sorry, some of you were starting to get long-winded! :D )

Anyhow, I was thinking that maybe the PoO IS a different symbol, but not unique for each gate - but unique for each 'sector' of space.

My question is why the heck there are nine chevrons on the gates, when 7 are used for normal dialing, and only 8 are used for intergalactic dialing.

confused_canary
October 3rd, 2004, 03:22 PM
i prefer to forget about all the talk about points of origin and stuff like that - and pretend its just a phone number:

in that mental model, the DHD is a sort of computer that corrects automatically for star drift and the number stays the same.

the earth gate had no DHD so they had to do all that farce with the computers to make it work.

Mio
October 3rd, 2004, 04:19 PM
i prefer to forget about all the talk about points of origin and stuff like that - and pretend its just a phone number

As do I.

COL PAUL EVELEIGH
November 20th, 2004, 11:23 AM
Ok guys i have read all the threads

I am sure that you have to put in 6 symbols then the the 7th symbol then press the red button to activate the gate on the DHD there is the same amount of symbols on each DHD.But what you dont relise is that if you look at earth from a different part of the galaxy the symbol of earth would differ slighty because of the angle .The earth symbol is on every DHD and so is the abydos and so on. but just maybe slighty different in shape depending apon the angle.But i am contridicting my self here because then each DHD would be individuals so there fore each DHD was made then keys added to the DHD im getting a head ache see if you guys add this to the theroy.



The symbols are actually in the night sky because i have found them myself.I know it sounds strange but its true for example i found all symbols apart from the abydos symbol

P.S FAR AS USING 4 OR 5 SYMBOLS THAT I HAVE NOT SEEN SO IF SOME ONE CAN TELL ME WHICH EPISODE MUCH APPRECIATED


COL. PAUL EVELEIGH
STARGATE COMMAND
SGE
WWW.STARGATEGALAXY.FSNET.CO.UK

dazzelina
November 20th, 2004, 06:17 PM
Ok Ok, I just had a Stargate birthday party for my 9 year old son and 24 of his closest friends. At the beginning of the party, I gave a mission briefing during which I had to explain, convincingly enough, how the stargate worked to a room full of third graders. I used the 6 points/3 intersecting lines story with a 7th point of origin and they bought it. When we were done, I asked if everyone understood - they sized me up and shook their heads in agreement. So the third graders have voted! Later on I did have one guest ask why our gate had 9 chevrons when we only needed to dial 7 points - sheesh I guess there's one in every crowd ;) - I mumbled something about distance and the fourth dimension as they shoved off on their zipline ride through our gate - and, fortunately for me, the subject didn't come up again. I wish I had seen this thread before the party - I'm sure I would've been much more convincing - or well - maybe just more confused.

BTW there are pictures of our party and stargate posted on this forum in the general discussion section in a thread titled "Stargate Birthday Party - Help" on page 4. :D

Wandering Tamer
February 25th, 2005, 05:48 PM
Ok, I know this is an old thread but the six symbols are needed to determine a point in space.


There have been so many discussions on this... I haven't bothered to post since old forums but here is a crappy paint pic that I think represents best how the symbols work.
http://news.mjsd1.ca/~jkennedy/stargate%20theory.bmp

I do not understand why 3 lines are required either, but perhaps there is another explanation somewhere that I haven't noticed.


That's a rule, given space and such. If you only had four points, you would get a location but it would only be two dimensional, not three. That's why there are six symbols, not four. Thy symbles are also constellations. That last one is to plot a course, otherwise it is just a destination with no idea of where you're starting from.

In "Solitude," Sam says that she doesn't recognize one of the symbols on the DHD which leads her to realize that it's the PoO symbol. This makes me think that the Stargates are not interchangeable w/ DHD's because that last symbol would have to be the same on the SG and DHD. The reason I think this is because then even if the calculations say that there are millions of possible worlds, then there would still only be 39 worlds because of the point of origin. Thus, the PoO is different from every world and must go with the stargate that has the same different symbol.

As for why all the symbols on the DHD and SG look the same, they were probably based on the constellations locations, based on the Ancients homeworld, so all of them are recognized.

matthew_kokai
March 18th, 2005, 04:55 PM
In a 7 chevron dialing system there are 6.36 x 10^10 combi9nations. Writen out this is 63606090240 combinations. Thats just for one galaxy! However if you take the dialing system to a 3 combination system to determine the dialing location you have a mere 50616 locations. Thats a quite low number of gates per galaxy.

However we live in a 4D space. 3 spatial dimensions plus time (which is Einstien's space-time). However quatum theory has said we may have 7, 9, or even 27 dimensions. There are 9 chevrons on the gate, we've only ever dialed 8 for another galaxy. What if the co-ordinates are taken not from a 3D world but from an 9D world? What would 9 locked chevrons take you to? How much power? It could take you to a parellel universe. We've met people from a parellel universe before. What if the system of transport they used was a subset of gate technology? And by plugging enough power into the gate you could dial a ninth chevron and choose a parellel universe to go to.

By that theory, one of the chevron's would control the time. The ancients knew how to travel time, what if they built a time manipulating function into their gate system? All you'd need to know is get as many stargate locations as you can (including ones from Pegasus, Ida, and the Milky Way) and compare their gate addresses. Easy.

spg_1983
March 18th, 2005, 05:15 PM
wow, blast from the past thread

Wandering Tamer
March 18th, 2005, 06:05 PM
I'm back. I additionally think that the reason we have such discrepancies between the function of our gate and others is because, as McKay said to Sam, the system we use is ignoring half of the 400 signals a DHD sends out. Those signals might be why some systems dial differently then others. That and, gatecoordinates are the same in Pegasus as they in the MW, so they must be distance finders because the constellations don't work in Pegasus the same. If you think about this, then it makes sense because even in SG, Daniel only accidentally discovers the meaning of the symbols and is much like Sam in the fact that it was hit and miss. They only accidentally found what it meant, so we got lucky.

jbuford
January 3rd, 2006, 11:03 AM
I never understood why 6 points are necessary. Using the destination coordinate system they used in the movie, four coordinates is enough, beccause the form two straight lines. And two straight lines can only intersect at one point, no matter what. The third line is pointless.

Not Necessarily...a 6 point system gives you a point in 3D space. Remember that space is not flat. Think about this in terms of earth. You have latitude and longitude then you can get to a place on the surface of the earth, but what if you were trying to fly to a place within the Earth (pretend for a second...) You'd need the other line to pinpoint where in the earth that you would like to go. Space is curved and it's possible that a line won't necessarily intersect another line in only one place. That would be the reason for the 6 points. The 7th is the caller ID for the calling gate.

jbuford
January 3rd, 2006, 11:14 AM
to be totally sure about what the PoO is and how most of the stuff works, we would need to see how the gate acts in a few situations (none of which i can think of at the moment)

1. Have we ever seen 2 gates in the same solar system? could u gate from one planet to another in the same system?

2. have we ever seen the symbols on a gate that has been moved before and after it was moved to a new planet? because u have to remember even the gou'ld have the technology to make what looks like stone symbols to move around (think the tablet things they have, that u sue a stone to turn to the next page, sorry i dont know the names off all the tech). maybe the symbols can change (even if it is just the PoO) depending on where they are.

the way i see it the BRB is like a "go now" button, you input the 7 symbol address and then the worm hole dosn't engage untill you hit the BRB, just in case u arn't ready yet or someone is in the way of the event horizen?

So the acients built this system for everyone to use, but the really advanced races got the full system specs, because the asgurd and some other races can dial a gate with out the DHD and even with out the whirlpool thing so there are alot of things we dont know about the gates. these theries seem to be best to describe the system from what i have seen so far in the series.

sorry for long post but here's a question for atlantis to answer as the show goes on but how do u dial any gate from the pudle jumper does it have every PoO on that small keyboard or do the symbols change?

With the exception of Earth, I don't think we've ever seen two gates within the same solar system - IN THE MILKY WAY GALAXY - I don't know for sure about Pegasus, but I don't think we've seen this yet. It doesn't seem good policy to make only 1 gate per planet much less a solar system does it? I mean think about how many cars/planes/trains/etc... we have on earth today. That's just ONE planet full of people. I'm going to make a full post on this later, so check back!

However, no - you can not gate from one planet to another in the same solar system. I can't remember the episode name, but it was at the end of S1 start of S2 when SG1 gated onto the Mothership in another solar system. Daniel was the only one left on the ship at the end and he said that he realized that he was close enough to earth to use it as the point of origin, so he traveled to the alpha site and then back to earth from that stargate. (which leaves the question...what happened to the mothership stargate?).

Lastly, I wouldn't be suprised if the symbols on the DHD's occasionally changed during a correlative (sp?) update (the avenger 2.0 episode). You're right, even the Goul'd have the ability to change apparent carvings on stone. As the constellations change, so one would think that the DHD symbols would have to change.

hawkmajor
June 30th, 2009, 01:30 AM
is the area code on an 8 chevron address the first or 7th glyph???

hawkmajor
June 30th, 2009, 01:50 AM
other than the address dialed from earth and the one in pegasus, how many other addresses are there for atlantis???

Merlin1701
June 30th, 2009, 02:00 AM
welcome to Gateworld pjp.

As I understand the concept behind gate travel the majority of the address is the area code with the final cheveron being the point of origin. Using six symbols to pinpoint a location in three dimensional space, seen in the stargate movie, and the seventh is the point of origin that plots the course.

Using this concept the galaxy cheveron must go first to then locate the planets and then plot a course.

hawkmajor
June 30th, 2009, 02:04 AM
Using this concept the galaxy cheveron must go first to then locate the planets and then plot a course.


Thanks, so does that mean that the area code for atlantis is the pegasus glyph