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View Full Version : Keller in "Missing" good or bad??



The.Road.Not.Taken
November 12th, 2007, 09:58 AM
tell me please what you think to keller because i have heard mixed opinions about her. because i really think she was great but not many do she was wicked to hear her experince at summer camp!!

jenks
November 12th, 2007, 10:28 AM
Good, I'm glad they didn't make her unrealistically macho.

GateLadyM
November 12th, 2007, 11:18 AM
Bad. The more I see her, the more I dislike her. She doesn't come across as a truly professional doctor, and all that whining, whew, I wanted to duct tape her mouth!

PG15
November 12th, 2007, 11:30 AM
Good.

No, check that, great; totally relatable and realistic.

Integrabyte
November 12th, 2007, 11:34 AM
Keller will cancel the show :cameron:. Seeing Keller makes me realise how good Carson was. I didn't even like him that much but now, he is 5 times better than miss "fix it" .

The.Road.Not.Taken
November 12th, 2007, 11:41 AM
haha see i told you all theese mixed opinions woooooo go mixed opinions!! continue posting what you think did you like that bit in missing were she ate that disgust bug EWWW!!

o-0
November 12th, 2007, 12:07 PM
There were enough wimps in Atlantis before Carson died, but with Keller around now, there's one too many!! Also, I lost the little respect I had for Keller already when I saw her cowering in fear, hesitating to cross a bridge, and refusing to eat something that actually looked delicious ;). I'm not sure whether Keller would've put herself at risk like Carson did on Sunday, even though she saved Naval while being hunted. I'm a little confused with her behavior because she'd be fearless when it comes to healing someone and cowardly when it comes to her own survival...

jelgate
November 12th, 2007, 12:13 PM
Keller is a good character who hasn't been given a chance by a lot of the fans. There are a lot of people who were very loyal to Beckett and will absolutely not give Keller a chance. I saw the same thing when Mitchell replaced O'Neill.

Ruined_puzzle
November 12th, 2007, 12:21 PM
Keller is a good character who hasn't been given a chance by a lot of the fans. There are a lot of people who were very loyal to Beckett and will absolutely not give Keller a chance. I saw the same thing when Mitchell replaced O'Neill.

I gave her a chance. I think most people gave her a chance. Heck she got fandom love because she was in Firefly however now that people have seen her character....well they don't like her. It might change but if this was her episode then I doubt it.

cshawzye
November 12th, 2007, 12:22 PM
I'm a little confused with her behavior because she'd be fearless when it comes to healing someone and cowardly when it comes to her own survival... I think that's part of the problem. IMO, the character really flip-flopped throughout the entire episode. When she was whining about her medical stuff and not wanting to cross the bridge all I could think was that it might as well have been Rodney in the scene. Then, at other times I felt like they were trying to resurrect Carson with the way they made her the "cowardly doctor." Then again, on top of that she had these moments of great courage where it was easy to really admire the character.

I think it was all meant to illustrate Teyla's point that you'd be surprised what you can go through when you have to. Which, I guess is a pretty good idea, but the way it was done just made Keller look kind of odd.

bossluna
November 12th, 2007, 12:27 PM
I kinda like keller. just because she's a doctor doesn't automatically mean she'll keep her wits about her when her life's on the line. Knowing that Teyla didn't have any weapons on her really didn't help the situation and ease her already frayed nerves. It's possible to have nerves of steel when doing surgery yet be a total wimp when facing your own fears (real or imagined) in a hostile environment. But the fact that she found the courage to face them is admirable and totally relatable.

She's young and inexperienced in these type of situations. But given some time hanging around Carter and Teyla, she'll learn to toughen up. After this incident Carter will no doubt have her take some basic self-defense training and weapons handling.

Now if Carter were with Teyla on that trip you know Sam would take no chances going off-world no matter how benign the situation would seem. She would have had a gun hidden away in her pack and maybe a knife in her boot. They'd kick some major butt and would've enjoyed torturing the Genii (the piece of scum that he is) for info about the whereabouts of the Athosians in no time and wouldn't have needed the boys to rescue them. :teylaanime03::samanime15:

jelgate
November 12th, 2007, 12:27 PM
I gave her a chance. I think most people gave her a chance. Heck she got fandom love because she was in Firefly however now that people have seen her character....well they don't like her. It might change but if this was her episode then I doubt it.I'm not talking about the average fan who posts here. There are some who just don't like Keller. I was pointing out the die-hard Beckett fans never even gave Keller a chance.

ToasterOnFire
November 12th, 2007, 12:32 PM
Not so good. While I found her fear realistic, I had a hard time buying that they'd let someone work at Atlantis nowadays with so little combat or survival skills. She didn't have a very good idea of how to stay hidden.

Many of her lines could have just as easily been said by Carson or McKay.

I preferred her in other eps like DG.

jelgate
November 12th, 2007, 12:36 PM
Not so good. While I found her fear realistic, I had a hard time buying that they'd let someone work at Atlantis nowadays with so little combat or survival skills. She didn't have a very good idea of how to stay hidden. Many of her lines could have just as easily been said by Carson or McKay. I preferred her in other eps like DG.Carson and McKay started out with little or no combat skills. Missing showed that McKay can adqueatly fire a P-90. Give Keller a little time

The.Road.Not.Taken
November 12th, 2007, 12:41 PM
Carson and McKay started out with little or no combat skills. Missing showed that McKay can adqueatly fire a P-90. Give Keller a little time

yh defo she will deafantly improve i really hope she comes back in season 5 shes wicked

Atlantis1
November 12th, 2007, 12:41 PM
I like her and I was not a fan of firefly. I liked Carson as well. Through all Kellers' fear, in the end she came through.She shot the guy in the leg leaving him alive. If the guy hadn't gotten away during them being rescued, Teyla would have had a chance to question him.

WingedPegasus
November 12th, 2007, 12:44 PM
From a realistic standpoint, her performance was good.

From my standpoint . . . not so good.

Yes, it was realistic for her to be scared, but it got pretty annoying. Teyla was getting fed up with her too. (Talking to her like she was a child, putting her hand over her mouth to make sure she didn't give them away, leaving her on the other side of the rope bridge . . .) Fortunately, she got a little better as the episode wore on, and I was pleased she had the good sense to give the Bolo Kai a false gate address. I was also happy when she shot Nebal in the leg.

Hopefully, the experience will have taught her enough about such situations that she won't be such a tactical disaster next time.

The.Road.Not.Taken
November 12th, 2007, 12:59 PM
From a realistic standpoint, her performance was good.

From my standpoint . . . not so good.

Yes, it was realistic for her to be scared, but it got pretty annoying. Teyla was getting fed up with her too. (Talking to her like she was a child, putting her hand over her mouth to make sure she didn't give them away, leaving her on the other side of the rope bridge . . .) Fortunately, she got a little better as the episode wore on, and I was pleased she had the good sense to give the Bolo Kai a false gate address. I was also happy when she shot Nebal in the leg.

Hopefully, the experience will have taught her enough about such situations that she won't be such a tactical disaster next time.

i loved him when she shot nebal she turned all bad ass and jumped on him woooooo go keller did you see her face it was wicked and hallrious

jenks
November 12th, 2007, 01:36 PM
If anyone thinks that was cowardice, you haven't lived. Considering the situation, I think she did herself proud not to freak out. Sounds like some people watch too much TV...

Mitchell82
November 12th, 2007, 03:19 PM
Great. I was skeptical at first but when I saw her in First Strike she seemed prommising and I went into season 4 with high hopes and I havent been disapointed. She is a great character and has been growing constantly. Almost have forgotten about Carson.

nekoi
November 12th, 2007, 03:22 PM
The only whimpy bit I can see about Keller is that she doesn't have much faith in herself and seems to constantly question her position and whether or not she's suited for it.

Her character, however, is quite believable... not all Doctors are epicly brave, seriously stoic or macho.

During the wilderness survival scenes, I could really relate to her character in the way that she was afraid and defenseless in the woods. I enjoyed being able to relate to her feelings and felt her acting and reactions to be very genuine.

The character has different sides to her in different situations. When she calls up the courage, she can do great things. I have faith in her as a developing character and addition to the Atlantis expidition.

Aginor37
November 12th, 2007, 06:25 PM
From the perspective of someone outside looking in (this is my first actual post here, though I have been lurking for over a month now) it really does seem that people have somewhat of an unrealistic view on Keller.

I mean, we had almost 3 full seasons to get to know Carson, and to see what kind of person he was through all that. Until Missing, keller probably had less than 45 minutes total screen time, nowhere near enough to get a good idea of who she is. Even after Missing, it seems too soon to make an accurate judgment as to how well she fits in, both in terms of "in the show" and as one of the characters.

Personally, I found her performance in Missing to be pretty much spot on considering what we have seen of her so far. I will go one further and say that her responses are pretty much exactly what we would have seen from Beckett or McKay in the 5th or 6th episodes of season one. Keep in mind, the same Beckett that became such a strong character before the end also whined and complained about having to help the Athosians secure their village before the hurricane. Heck, Teyla had pretty much the same "I am so about to smack you" look on her face during Keller's "Oh no, too high" tirade that she had with Beckett's "I'm not wearing the right boots for this" whine.

Another thing the two have in common is the huge difference in how they respond to stress in offworld situation vs. how they respond to stress in medical emergencies. In the sickbay, they are in their element and in control; Outside they are as helpless in unknown situations as any relatively sheltered civilian (which non batlefield doctors certainly qualify as)

I do have to say that it's refreshing to see a civilian not turn into a gun-toting hero from exposure to the main team. I liked that she was vulnerable, scared witless and completely out of her element. At the end when she jumps the wraith worshipper, you can almost see the "That's it, I just snapped!" on her face, where she has gone about as far as she is willing to and she is going to lose it.

In the end, I guess I feel like she is doing well so far, but being about 3 seasons behind the rest of the crew in terms of character development makes it harder to relate to her than it should be. If she is going to stick around and be a real part of the group, more episodes will need to be focused on developing her.

Amalthea
November 12th, 2007, 07:18 PM
I think Keller was very interesting in this episode. Yes, the whining was annoying, but she was just in way over her head. Since the moment Weir promoted her, she's felt overloaded. I mean, here she was, on a simple "house call" with candies, and then she's being chased by cannibals. That'd be a little much for anyone.
I like the non-machoness of SGA. On SG1, everyone was military (except Daniel). There's a mentality associated with that in regards to all the personnel that would be on the show. On SGA, they can explore more character types, like Keller, and we can watch them grow. That's what dedicated viewers look for, I think.

Avenger
November 12th, 2007, 08:30 PM
The last three posts are all green worthy.

Jedted
November 12th, 2007, 09:06 PM
I really like Jewel's character and think she's a lot like Carson was in season 1, a brilliant doctor but unsure of herself whenever she goes off world. This was i think the first time we've seen her off world and on a mission and i think she did pretty well. I hope they continue to develop Keller like this and not just write her off when Carson comes back.

p-pos
November 12th, 2007, 09:58 PM
i like her and what she brings to the show, i also thought her to be spot on in mission. she was out of her element and in a situation that she wasn't prepared for how is she suppose to act.

if keller would have gone an rambo on us it would have been unbelievabe

Gate gal
November 12th, 2007, 10:02 PM
Definitely good! I think she was very realistic, and she was the perfect character to balance Teyla. She showed real growth by the end of the episode. Hey, she Shot the man she'd just stitched up the night before. Honestly, Keller is becoming one of my very favorite characters. I almost feel like a trader for saying it. I mean I hate that Carson isn't around, and I'd love to see an ascended Carson in as many episodes as possible.

Trek_Girl42
November 12th, 2007, 11:17 PM
I really liked it- Keller went though a great character journey throughout the episode which was exactly what she needed at this point. We now know her and who she is. Who wouldn't love her at the sight of that giant jar of lollipops? I wanted to giver her a hug right there she was so awesome!

And throughout the ep.....sure Keller whined, but really, she was a trooper and by the end I was just thrilled when she fought that guy and got the gun, because she earned that scene and that moment. :zelenka25:

I really loved the duo of Keller and Teyla- nicely contrasting, and two awesome ladies! I hope to see more of them on screen together in the future.

My only tiny nit-pick was that I though JS's acting was a bit off in a couple of scenes- mainly right before the bridge (maybe they shot that scene first or separate from the rest of the ep?), but throughout the rest she was fantastic!

Landers
November 13th, 2007, 05:58 AM
The only whimpy bit I can see about Keller is that she doesn't have much faith in herself and seems to constantly question her position and whether or not she's suited for it.

That's the problem I have with her. The IOC, or Stargate Command, or whoever is doing the hiring for the Atlantis program, has the ability to pick the cream of the crop, the absolute BEST to go live off world, knowing completely that they may not make it home, especially since Atlantis has been invaded before. Why would anyone hire Keller? A very young girl, with little experience, and no self-confidence in herself? It astounds me that she was given this post!

Carson was a chicken, yes, but he had also worked in Antarctica, and for the military and was well schooled in the Ancients, aliens, the whole Gate program. He was a nervous dude, but he did the work, and he wasn't a whiny wimp like Keller.

Integrabyte
November 13th, 2007, 11:09 AM
I wish the Wraith end up eating her :) :wraithanime11::wraithanime11:

FoolishPleasure
November 13th, 2007, 11:29 AM
I mean, we had almost 3 full seasons to get to know Carson, and to see what kind of person he was through all that. Until Missing, keller probably had less than 45 minutes total screen time, nowhere near enough to get a good idea of who she is.

When I first watched "Rising" years ago, the very first scene involving Carson hooked me, and I said, "I hope this guy is a reg - I really like him!" He was the cuddly teddy bear, who was scared of the unknown, but went on the expedition anyway. He was the "every day" person on the team for me - the only one I could really identify with. We've sceen Carson scared, but never saw him resort to being the sniveling coward!

I have yet to connect to Keller. I don't find her the least bit loveable, or even likeable. She comes across as a rather cold, clinical doctor, with very little self-worth, and the only emotion I've seen from her is when she was concerned for herself in "Missing".

I don't see this girl handling a busy trauma center with any confidence, much less engaging in space exploration and dealing with alien diseases and risk of mortal danger!

Jenner8675309
November 13th, 2007, 11:36 AM
IGN gave it and her a not so great review:

http://blogs.ign.com/SCI-FI-BRAIN/2007/11/12/71462/

Integrabyte
November 13th, 2007, 11:38 AM
IGN gave it and her a not so great review:

http://blogs.ign.com/SCI-FI-BRAIN/2007/11/12/71462/


After a performance like that ...you need to walk the plank :D

FoolishPleasure
November 13th, 2007, 12:26 PM
From the TV.com review:

To begin with I loved Jewel Staite, in Firefly and she's been fairly good so far on Atlantis. I should say, I love Jewel Staite; period, but I found her too frail and whiny in tonight's episode.

Mitchell82
November 13th, 2007, 05:34 PM
IGN gave it and her a not so great review:

http://blogs.ign.com/SCI-FI-BRAIN/2007/11/12/71462/

Big surprise there they rarely like the show. I can't agree with a thing they said.

Avenger
November 13th, 2007, 05:43 PM
From the TV.com review:

To begin with I loved Jewel Staite, in Firefly and she's been fairly good so far on Atlantis. I should say, I love Jewel Staite; period, but I found her too frail and whiny in tonight's episode.

Which is exactly how the character was supposed to be. Keller was supposed to be frail and self-doubting in the episode and if that's how people found her, then all the more credit to Jewel Staite for portraying the character that way.

Mitchell82
November 13th, 2007, 05:47 PM
Which is exactly how the character was supposed to be. Keller was supposed to be frail and self-doubting in the episode and if that's how people found her, then all the more credit to Jewel Staite for portraying the character that way.

Bravo!:jack_new_anime07::weiranime17:

Avenger
November 14th, 2007, 01:02 AM
It also would have been completely absurd for her to be completely calm and collected in the situation given that she's a civilian doctor. The only way I could fathom Keller reacting differently than she did would have been if she was a military doctor who had served time in Iraq or some other combat zone, treating wounded soldiers under fire.

SG13-NightOps
November 14th, 2007, 03:18 AM
Which is exactly how the character was supposed to be. Keller was supposed to be frail and self-doubting in the episode and if that's how people found her, then all the more credit to Jewel Staite for portraying the character that way.

Green for the common sense!

Keller did whine an awful lot - and I am happy to admit that at some points, it really grated. Yet despite the whine, she still crossed the bridge, she still ate the icky squid guts, she still saved Teyla. Great character development for Keller in this episode. One of the most realistic characters to date to boot.

vaberella
November 14th, 2007, 10:13 AM
She annoyed me, but I didn't question her reaction. As I said in a post in the ep thread, common sense takes a backseat when you're in a situation and your life is in danger. Most people don't react with common sense but with instinct.

Because most people don't use their brain as adrenaline is pumping throught their veins. So her fear, I understood, her reactions, I understood. So I don't fault her reactions or actions...except maybe her blind trust for that idiot Nable. I would know for sure not to trust anyone I meet besides my crew when my crew is saying don't trust someone.

SG13-NightOps
November 14th, 2007, 03:48 PM
She annoyed me, but I didn't question her reaction. As I said in a post in the ep thread, common sense takes a backseat when you're in a situation and your life is in danger. Most people don't react with common sense but with instinct.

Because most people don't use their brain as adrenaline is pumping throught their veins. So her fear, I understood, her reactions, I understood. So I don't fault her reactions or actions...except maybe her blind trust for that idiot Nable. I would know for sure not to trust anyone I meet besides my crew when my crew is saying don't trust someone.

Well, I would have thought that the fact he was dressed like an Athosian despite the fact that Teyla advised her that he wasn't an Athosian would have sent up some red flags for her. Also I thought it was Nable. Good to see I am not losing my mind! :D

The whining was annoying. It was at its worst at the bridge. Just wanted to smack her. But I put that down to the fact that we have never had a great deal of exposure to the non military contingent. The most we got before that was Kavanagh, and he was a whiner too. Sometimes the best in their field is not the best in the field, and that too is to be expected.

CalmStorm
November 14th, 2007, 06:08 PM
I think her character had an honest reaction to the situation. It did become slightly grating with all the "I can't" talk, but seemed fairly normal for someone exposed to that situation for the first time.

I think we'll see her character grow from this and perhaps be a little more "can do" in future off-world travels. Confidence comes with experience.

jckfan55
November 14th, 2007, 07:04 PM
From my standpoint . . . not so good.

Yes, it was realistic for her to be scared, but it got pretty annoying. Teyla was getting fed up with her too. (Talking to her like she was a child, putting her hand over her mouth to make sure she didn't give them away, leaving her on the other side of the rope bridge . . .) Fortunately, she got a little better as the episode wore on, and I was pleased she had the good sense to give the Bolo Kai a false gate address. I was also happy when she shot Nebal in the leg.

Hopefully, the experience will have taught her enough about such situations that she won't be such a tactical disaster next time.

I could certainly see her being scared and feeling in over her head, but I think that sort of whiny-ess was ovedone. At some point (and earlier I think) self preservation should have kicked in.
I have liked Keller overall in the eps we've seen, though.

sparky
November 15th, 2007, 03:41 AM
I quite like Keller's character overall. However, I found her whiny and annoying in 'Missing' add to that there were one or two scenes when I wasn't convinced by Jewel's acting.

Yay4CarsonBeckett
November 15th, 2007, 03:48 AM
Bad. The more I see her, the more I dislike her. She doesn't come across as a truly professional doctor, and all that whining, whew, I wanted to duct tape her mouth!

Yup my sentiments exactly. Keller sucks.

If it had been Carson there, he would have made some comment about the Bola Kai looking like extras from Br-r-r-raveheart.:beckett:

Geral
November 15th, 2007, 09:05 AM
Bad. The more I see her, the more I dislike her. She doesn't come across as a truly professional doctor, and all that whining, whew, I wanted to duct tape her mouth!

I agree. I respected her before the episode but I didn't like her at all in this one and I saw several conflicts between her and Teyla I thought were interesting.

I like how they didn't make her all macho like but she came off as a complete wimp - worse than McKay. Even though she is a doctor, I found her coming off as pretty weak.

CalmStorm
November 15th, 2007, 11:56 AM
Carson and McKay started out with little or no combat skills. Missing showed that McKay can adqueatly fire a P-90. Give Keller a little time

LOL ...he adequately fired a weapon that time, however, in one episode he ended up ejecting the clip from his sidearm instead of firing the weapon. Even considering his training since he first arrived, I wouldn't necessarily feel safe knowing McKay had a projectile weapon. When he panics, which he does often, the ability to successfully use a weapon greatly diminishes. :P

Keller may pick up some self-defense skills in later episodes, however, she is not wired to hurt people. She is a doctor and her first instinct is not violence or self-defense. She would end up shooting her attacker, and then providing medical aid to that same attacker. Carson was the same way. Different character/actor, same basic traits.

Arica12
November 15th, 2007, 12:46 PM
I cannot stand Keller and this episode just confirmed it for me however I actually see a missed opportunity that might have made me a little more sympathetic. If at any point Teyla had told her she was being a selfish little brat and then we had actually seen Keller trying to be brave, maybe not even succeeding, but at least recognising that she needed to take a little more responsibility for herself I may have had more time for her. I mean in the end she did fight back, but that was only when Teyla was no longer in a position to do anything. Being brave is not about shooting someone because you have no choice, that's survival instinct and despite what horror movies try and tell you people do not stand screaming when someone is trying to kill them, I think being brave is recognising that there are things more important than your own fear, like not endangering others because of your fear.

BoyNamedSue
November 15th, 2007, 12:48 PM
I really want to give her a chance, but she is getting WORSE with every single episode! Keller in Missing was annoying, condescending and whiny. She came off sounding immature, self-centred, and spoiled. You'd expect a bit more from someone, who - in her own words - "signed up to be a chief of medicine in a whole other galaxy". Which, by the way, is not quite true, as she was appointed CMO by Weir following Carson's death, and was anxiously awaiting a quick reassignment. I know that the story about visiting her father at the end was a kind of thank-you to Teyla, but considering that the Athosian just lost a village full of her people and a man she loved, it was incredibly insensitive of Keller to say that. Jewel is a good actress and I loved her in Firefly, but there's only so much she can do with the material she's given, which IMO is substandard.

ko2008
November 15th, 2007, 01:59 PM
Good, I'm glad they didn't make her unrealistically macho.

Yeah, me too, I mean I love Beckett, but shes good too. However, I cant wait for him to return. :tealc39:

SG13-NightOps
November 15th, 2007, 03:48 PM
I really want to give her a chance, but she is getting WORSE with every single episode! Keller in Missing was annoying, condescending and whiny. She came off sounding immature, self-centred, and spoiled. You'd expect a bit more from someone, who - in her own words - "signed up to be a chief of medicine in a whole other galaxy". Which, by the way, is not quite true, as she was appointed CMO by Weir following Carson's death, and was anxiously awaiting a quick reassignment. I know that the story about visiting her father at the end was a kind of thank-you to Teyla, but considering that the Athosian just lost a village full of her people and a man she loved, it was incredibly insensitive of Keller to say that. Jewel is a good actress and I loved her in Firefly, but there's only so much she can do with the material she's given, which IMO is substandard.

Well, actually, if you work it all out properly, she had no idea what she was signing up for at all. In intruder they explained that they have to sign a blind one year commitment. The wording is slightly off and could have been better... But with all that prior knowledge of how it all works and how it happened, its easy to accept that it may have been meant that way.

CalmStorm
November 15th, 2007, 03:57 PM
Well, actually, if you work it all out properly, she had no idea what she was signing up for at all. In intruder they explained that they have to sign a blind one year commitment. The wording is slightly off and could have been better... But with all that prior knowledge of how it all works and how it happened, its easy to accept that it may have been meant that way.

I'll have to re-watch that episode, but I don't remember that specific comment. I thought that all they had to do was sign a confidentiality agreement so that they could be briefed about the position they were being considered for. I don't think they would require a blind commitment and then send someone to another galaxy without their consent. I think they let them know what they are getting into and give them the opportunity to continue to be considered for the position or withdraw themselves from consideration.

Mitchell82
November 15th, 2007, 04:05 PM
She annoyed me, but I didn't question her reaction. As I said in a post in the ep thread, common sense takes a backseat when you're in a situation and your life is in danger. Most people don't react with common sense but with instinct.

Because most people don't use their brain as adrenaline is pumping throught their veins. So her fear, I understood, her reactions, I understood. So I don't fault her reactions or actions...except maybe her blind trust for that idiot Nable. I would know for sure not to trust anyone I meet besides my crew when my crew is saying don't trust someone.
She did me too at first but upon more watchings she didn't annoy me one bit. As to the trusting Nabel well she had no reason not to not to mention her ethics wouldn't allow her to just leave him.

PG15
November 15th, 2007, 04:18 PM
I'll have to re-watch that episode, but I don't remember that specific comment. I thought that all they had to do was sign a confidentiality agreement so that they could be briefed about the position they were being considered for. I don't think they would require a blind commitment and then send someone to another galaxy without their consent. I think they let them know what they are getting into and give them the opportunity to continue to be considered for the position or withdraw themselves from consideration.

Here's that whole passage:


FLASHBACK. SGC. BRIEFING ROOM. Carson is sitting at the briefing table, going through a huge pile of personnel files.
BECKETT (indicating the file he’s looking at): Look at this! Four years’ relief work in the Sudan and Ethiopia; graduate studies at John Hopkins and Harvard; half a dozen research grants – oh, and she also enjoys judo, horseback riding, origami and something called base jumping.
WEIR: Parachuting from cliffs and tall buildings.
BECKETT: Oh! Of course(!)
WEIR: You said you wanted the best.
BECKETT: But all these people are more qualified than I am! How am I supposed to choose between them?
WEIR: Carson, you are my chief surgeon. No-one is more qualified than you. (She smiles at him. He smiles back.)
BECKETT: Well, I’ve managed to make a shortlist. (He hands her the list.) I was hoping you’d make the final selections.
WEIR (looking at the list): This is your shortlist?! (Carson smiles ruefully. She looks at the list.) Did you review the file of a Doctor Simon Wallace?
BECKETT: Why? He was also more qualified than I am.
WEIR: Why isn’t he on the list?
BECKETT: Well, the candidates were required to sign off on a blind commitment to a one-year term.
WEIR: Doctor Wallace has been given security clearance. He knows what this is all about.
BECKETT: Maybe that’s the problem.
WEIR: What do you mean?
BECKETT: He hasn’t signed.



http://www.moon-catchin.net/gatenoise/sgatranscripts/s2/202theintruder.htm

CalmStorm
November 15th, 2007, 05:22 PM
http://www.moon-catchin.net/gatenoise/sgatranscripts/s2/202theintruder.htm

Sure enough, there it is. Gateworld also has transcripts available too, including this episode at:
Intruder Transcript (http://www.gateworld.net/atlantis/s2/transcripts/202.shtml)

I would be surprised if it is a totally "blind commitment." To me, I think it means, that if they go through the selection process, their blind commitment of one year, is a commitment to be able to dedicate their time for that year. To be able to walk away from their life and everything in it for a year. I would think that they would have to know at some point that they are being sent to another galaxy where life sucking aliens will threaten their very existence. If they cannot dedicate a year or do not want to, they can be removed from consideration without the need to divulge the info on assignment or the stargate.

In regards to Keller, perhaps she did take part in the blind commitment, however, it also sounds like she made a conscious commitment as well. I think anyone singing a blind commitment has two commitments to make. The initial one that is required, and then a second one to themselves and the situation once they learn what it is.

Avenger
November 15th, 2007, 05:46 PM
Yup my sentiments exactly. Keller sucks.

If it had been Carson there, he would have made some comment about the Bola Kai looking like extras from Br-r-r-raveheart.:beckett:

Carson would have **** himself if the same thing had happened on his first mission off Atlantis back in the first season. It took him some time to get comfortable with the idea what leaving Atlantis can be very dangerous.

Mitchell82
November 15th, 2007, 07:02 PM
Sure enough, there it is. Gateworld also has transcripts available too, including this episode at:
Intruder Transcript (http://www.gateworld.net/atlantis/s2/transcripts/202.shtml)

I would be surprised if it is a totally "blind commitment." To me, I think it means, that if they go through the selection process, their blind commitment of one year, is a commitment to be able to dedicate their time for that year. To be able to walk away from their life and everything in it for a year. I would think that they would have to know at some point that they are being sent to another galaxy where life sucking aliens will threaten their very existence. If they cannot dedicate a year or do not want to, they can be removed from consideration without the need to divulge the info on assignment or the stargate.

In regards to Keller, perhaps she did take part in the blind commitment, however, it also sounds like she made a conscious commitment as well. I think anyone singing a blind commitment has two commitments to make. The initial one that is required, and then a second one to themselves and the situation once they learn what it is.
Sorry but the SGC and Atlantis is classified beyond top-secret so that means they sign off blindly then are told just what they got themsleves into. Keller included.

Equinox_Abyss
November 15th, 2007, 07:29 PM
Neither. She was GREAT! I enjoyed getting to find out a bit more about her past and how much she can handle/endure. What really had me interested was her interaction and relationship with my favorite Stargate Atlantis character; Teyla! She brings a whole new element into the show. She's new, young, fresh, unsure of herself/insecure, somewhat shy, eager, intelligent, and a little geeky. In my opinion that is a very nice combination. I think that in the short time that she has been on the show she has definately made it better and more entertaining. That's saying something considering how awesome and entertaining the show was before her character was introduced into the show!

CalmStorm
November 15th, 2007, 07:36 PM
Sorry but the SGC and Atlantis is classified beyond top-secret so that means they sign off blindly then are told just what they got themsleves into. Keller included.

Why the need to apologize?

As far as the 'beyond top-secret' nature of the stargate that is understandable. However, plenty of people seem to be aware of the stargate and many without signing a blind commitment. The stargate is not as big a secret as it might have once been.

The bottom line is that Keller said she knew what she was signing up for. So, to me, it is entirely believable that she meant just that. From the information that has been provided, we I cannot be certain without a doubt that she had to sign a blind commitment. There are plenty of others who did not have to do so.

It is hard to imagine the SGC forcing someone to travel to another galaxy without their consent upon knowing what they would be doing. I don't see Landry, Oneill, Hammond, or any one else in that position doing such a thing. Even Weir gave everyone at the start of the journey the chance to back out of it.

I think they are just looking for someone who is willing to start out by signing a blind commitment. Someone not afraid to do such a thing. Almost a test of sorts. More importantly, to me, it seems like it is also a gauge to see if they have the ability to sign up for a year and be able to drop everything and everyone to fulfill the job.

SG13-NightOps
November 16th, 2007, 12:46 AM
Here's that whole passage:
http://www.moon-catchin.net/gatenoise/sgatranscripts/s2/202theintruder.htm


WEIR (looking at the list): This is your shortlist?! (Carson smiles ruefully. She looks at the list.) Did you review the file of a Doctor Simon Wallace?
BECKETT: Why? He was also more qualified than I am.

That transcript STILL irks me. He says Aye, not Why.

jelgate
November 16th, 2007, 04:34 AM
In some cultures Aye is an another way to say yes

SG13-NightOps
November 16th, 2007, 04:56 AM
In some cultures Aye is an another way to say yes

:beckettanime14: I know.. I wasnt asking why he says Aye, I was pointing out that the transcript has written him as saying "Why", and it irks me because he says "Aye", like a good scotsman.

and its totally OT now! LOL

BoyNamedSue
November 16th, 2007, 08:04 AM
Sure enough, there it is. Gateworld also has transcripts available too, including this episode at:
Intruder Transcript (http://www.gateworld.net/atlantis/s2/transcripts/202.shtml)

I would be surprised if it is a totally "blind commitment." To me, I think it means, that if they go through the selection process, their blind commitment of one year, is a commitment to be able to dedicate their time for that year. To be able to walk away from their life and everything in it for a year. I would think that they would have to know at some point that they are being sent to another galaxy where life sucking aliens will threaten their very existence. If they cannot dedicate a year or do not want to, they can be removed from consideration without the need to divulge the info on assignment or the stargate.

In regards to Keller, perhaps she did take part in the blind commitment, however, it also sounds like she made a conscious commitment as well. I think anyone singing a blind commitment has two commitments to make. The initial one that is required, and then a second one to themselves and the situation once they learn what it is.

That's exactly what my beef with Keller is - she's been thrust into Atlantis (and the viewers/fans) without rhyme or reason.

It would be reasonable to assume that the Pegasus expedition team was hand-picked after careful deliberation and review of their qualifications (including psych evaluations, special training, etc.). One would think that a secret project of this magnitude would require the best and brightest, people who are naturally predisposed to dealing well with unexpected and threatening situations, not just anyone who cares to join. That's why Keller as a CMO of Atlantis - especially after viewing Missing - is a very questionable choice.

BoyNamedSue
November 16th, 2007, 08:15 AM
Which is exactly how the character was supposed to be. Keller was supposed to be frail and self-doubting in the episode and if that's how people found her, then all the more credit to Jewel Staite for portraying the character that way.


It also would have been completely absurd for her to be completely calm and collected in the situation given that she's a civilian doctor. The only way I could fathom Keller reacting differently than she did would have been if she was a military doctor who had served time in Iraq or some other combat zone, treating wounded soldiers under fire.

This whole frail, self-doubting shtick is getting a little old after 5 of 8 episodes she's supposed to be in this season. I think it's expected that the CMO may be required to treat wounded off-world and in combat situations, and that they should be able to deal with it. Maybe that's the problem, maybe Atlantis needs a military doctor (one like Janet Fraser), someone with experience of dangerous, high-pressure situations. PG is not for the faint-hearted.

Someone else said that confidence comes with experience - CMO is a senior position, and it's reasonable to think that it would be filled by someone with experience. I understand that appointing Keller as a replacement was necessary because of the crisis they were in at the time, but it's not like Atlantis is STILL cut off from Earth and lacking access to an experienced replacement. Carter arrived from Earth to replace Weir after all. Military leader for a civilian one, so maybe same should have been done with the CMO.

blue-skyz
November 16th, 2007, 09:25 AM
I think it's expected that the CMO may be required to treat wounded off-world and in combat situations, and that they should be able to deal with it. Maybe that's the problem, maybe Atlantis needs a military doctor (one like Janet Fraser), someone with experience of dangerous, high-pressure situations. PG is not for the faint-hearted.
I agree that most of the non-scientists should be military. The reasons are economics and practicality. Beckett was part of the original group, however they came together. And, besides, he was a scientist, too. The other doctors should have been military, as well as all of the nurses and all of Atlantis’s support personnel. Top secret clearance investigations are very expensive and take a long time. It would be much more economical to perform them for personnel already contracted to the government, e.g. the military. I have often wondered what the logistics are for hiring a cook or a janitor for a beyond top secret facility in another galaxy. Drawing from government services, the military, is the most expeditious and economical method. Best for security, too, to have employees that can also defend the city.

jelgate
November 16th, 2007, 09:28 AM
I agree that most of the non-scientists should be military. The reasons are economics and practicality. Beckett was part of the original group, however they came together. And, besides, he was a scientist, too. The other doctors should have been military, as well as all of the nurses and all of Atlantis’s support personnel. Top secret clearance investigations are very expensive and take a long time. It would be much more economical to perform them for personnel already contracted to the government, e.g. the military. I have often wondered what the logistics are for hiring a cook or a janitor for a beyond top secret facility in another galaxy. Drawing from government services, the military, is the most expeditious and economical method. Best for security, too, to have employees that can also defend the city.


When your in a placce like Atlantis sometimes you need the best of the best in terms of sciencetist. Sometimes these people aren't military.

blue-skyz
November 16th, 2007, 09:44 AM
When your in a placce like Atlantis sometimes you need the best of the best in terms of sciencetist. Sometimes these people aren't military.

I agree that most of the non-scientists should be military.
Ordinary medical doctors would not be scientists.

CalmStorm
November 16th, 2007, 10:13 AM
I agree that most of the non-scientists should be military. The reasons are economics and practicality. Beckett was part of the original group, however they came together. And, besides, he was a scientist, too. The other doctors should have been military, as well as all of the nurses and all of Atlantis’s support personnel. Top secret clearance investigations are very expensive and take a long time. It would be much more economical to perform them for personnel already contracted to the government, e.g. the military. I have often wondered what the logistics are for hiring a cook or a janitor for a beyond top secret facility in another galaxy. Drawing from government services, the military, is the most expeditious and economical method. Best for security, too, to have employees that can also defend the city.

Yes, the stargate program is primarily a U.S. military operation, which is why on SG-1 you had a heavy presence of military scientist and doctors. The program was not exclusively military personnel only, but they seemed to account for a very large percentage of the program.

The Atlantis expedition is a joint venture of sorts with other countries. While it may be a bit more costly in terms of clearance investigations, that cost should also be distributed among the participating countries.

Regardless, of military versus non-military, all those in the program should go through regular self-defense training. The scientist have defended the city on countless occasions through their knowledge, not their brawn (or lack of). It is the job of the military to protect the city and its inhabitants from physical assaults and attacks. That is the primary purpose of any military, to serve and protect those who cannot protect themselves.

I think it is good that the expedition is a well rounded mix of military and non-military. As for Keller, she and any other non-military personnel who will potentially go off-world, should go through self-defense and basic training techniques to protect not only themselves, but to help from becoming a liability to those they are with.

Keller, being the CMO, should have already been exposed to self-defense knowing that she would have to go off-world at some point. It would only make sense. So do we blame the character for not being trained in self-defense, or the leader of the expedition for not requiring and seeing to it that the scientist and non-military are properly trained, or the head of the military contingent for not fighting harder to have those people trained? Whose responsibility is it to ensure that everyone on the base has some self-defense training?

blue-skyz
November 16th, 2007, 10:21 AM
Keller, being the CMO, should have already been exposed to self-defense knowing that she would have to go off-world at some point. It would only make sense. So do we blame the character for not being trained in self-defense, or the leader of the expedition for not requiring and seeing to it that the scientist and non-military are properly trained, or the head of the military contingent for not fighting harder to have those people trained? Whose responsibility is it to ensure that everyone on the base has some self-defense training?
The writers.

BoyNamedSue
November 16th, 2007, 11:49 AM
I agree that most of the non-scientists should be military. The reasons are economics and practicality. Beckett was part of the original group, however they came together. And, besides, he was a scientist, too. The other doctors should have been military, as well as all of the nurses and all of Atlantis’s support personnel. Top secret clearance investigations are very expensive and take a long time. It would be much more economical to perform them for personnel already contracted to the government, e.g. the military. I have often wondered what the logistics are for hiring a cook or a janitor for a beyond top secret facility in another galaxy. Drawing from government services, the military, is the most expeditious and economical method. Best for security, too, to have employees that can also defend the city.

I'm working on a fanfic that explains that :)




*snipped*

Keller, being the CMO, should have already been exposed to self-defense knowing that she would have to go off-world at some point. It would only make sense. So do we blame the character for not being trained in self-defense, or the leader of the expedition for not requiring and seeing to it that the scientist and non-military are properly trained, or the head of the military contingent for not fighting harder to have those people trained? Whose responsibility is it to ensure that everyone on the base has some self-defense training?


The writers.

LOL!!! blue-skyz, you're so in my head! That was my answer as soon as I've read CalmStorm's comment. I blame TPTB, JM and Co. The average Stargate fan is quite analytical and insightful, IMO, and they keep ignoring that. Yeah, yeah, I know it's just a tv show, and we're discussing a secret expedition fighting the Wraith in the Pegasus Galaxy, but would it hurt if the grounds for picking a certain person for a certain job would be explained and based on reason?

CalmStorm
November 16th, 2007, 12:54 PM
LOL!!! blue-skyz, you're so in my head! That was my answer as soon as I've read CalmStorm's comment.

It is also the answer I had in mind. The character is a result of the lines provided. If people want to complain about the characters whiny nature, then that is a result of the writers providing whiny lines. If people want to talk about the lack of training for the characters, it is because the writers are not incorporating training into the characters.

To critique Keller as good or bad, is to critique how she is written. If Keller was written as strong and confident, would there be as much criticism on how good or bad she is, with the focus being on the bad?

Lack of confidence seems to be a plague throughout the series. McKay, generally speaking, has a whiny 'this is impossible, we're all going to die' attitude, and then always pulls out a miracle. They wrote Weir as someone who at times seemed confident and put on a strong appearance, but showed her as someone who also questioned her abilities. They wrote Beckett and Keller much the same way. Carter, for the most part, knows she is brilliant, but at the same time was always doubting her leadership abilities. Perhaps now that has changed for the Carter character, but how many years did that take?

This is a group of brilliant, successful people. Why can they not be written with a lot more confidence and trust in their abilities? If this is the best and the brightest of military and scientist, then why is basic self-defense even an issue? Why has it not been incorporated into the program? You would think it would be common sense to train those going into a possibly hostile environment the very basics of self-defense.

Mitchell82
November 16th, 2007, 01:40 PM
Why the need to apologize?
I was playing it safe as it seems it is easy to offend some these days. I'd rather appolagise in advance just in case.;)


As far as the 'beyond top-secret' nature of the stargate that is understandable. However, plenty of people seem to be aware of the stargate and many without signing a blind commitment. The stargate is not as big a secret as it might have once been.
Um just a question but who? Kinsey and any other civilian would have to sign a non disclosure aggrement. Just as would all military personell and any guests ie, Teal'c, Vala, Jonas, etc..This comes from expiernce mind you. Anyone who is let in to a top secret or above program either signs an NDA or a blind commitment.


The bottom line is that Keller said she knew what she was signing up for. So, to me, it is entirely believable that she meant just that. From the information that has been provided, we I cannot be certain without a doubt that she had to sign a blind commitment. There are plenty of others who did not have to do so.
Neither can I but you say plenty others just exactly who? It is possible that many like the military would already know but Carson was the one that said that and it makes sense for the civilian screening. However regardless it is higlhy possible she didn't look before she lept. In other words didn't realise just what she got herself into.


It is hard to imagine the SGC forcing someone to travel to another galaxy without their consent upon knowing what they would be doing. I don't see Landry, Oneill, Hammond, or any one else in that position doing such a thing. Even Weir gave everyone at the start of the journey the chance to back out of it.
Yeah and the trip to the SGC was after said documents were signed and yes the military would do that as a safeguard. They would sat just enough to entice someone and give them the option. In order to know more you must sign otherwise they point to the door. That is usually standard with non military. As said in "secrets" civilians sign NDA. I know from experience that if they are unaware of what they are going to see will sign before they are shown and if they are it is for insurance.

jelgate
November 16th, 2007, 01:41 PM
Ordinary medical doctors would not be scientists.My point still applies, you want the best doctors in Atlantis, sometimes the best isn't military

Avenger
November 16th, 2007, 01:53 PM
This whole frail, self-doubting shtick is getting a little old after 5 of 8 episodes she's supposed to be in this season. I think it's expected that the CMO may be required to treat wounded off-world and in combat situations, and that they should be able to deal with it. Maybe that's the problem, maybe Atlantis needs a military doctor (one like Janet Fraser), someone with experience of dangerous, high-pressure situations. PG is not for the faint-hearted.

Someone else said that confidence comes with experience - CMO is a senior position, and it's reasonable to think that it would be filled by someone with experience. I understand that appointing Keller as a replacement was necessary because of the crisis they were in at the time, but it's not like Atlantis is STILL cut off from Earth and lacking access to an experienced replacement. Carter arrived from Earth to replace Weir after all. Military leader for a civilian one, so maybe same should have been done with the CMO.

She was unsure of being given the CMO position after Carson was gone. She was scared when she was being chased by cannibals. It was her first off-world mission. Your real issue is why they chose a civilian doctor instead of military doctor with field experience, which is a legitimate question that should be directed at TPTB. The character of Dr. Keller reacted just as a regular person would have.

jelgate
November 16th, 2007, 01:57 PM
She was unsure of being given the CMO position after Carson was gone.?* She was scared when she was being chased by cannibals.?* It was her first off-world mission.?* Your real issue is why they chose a civilian doctor instead of military doctor with field experience, which is a legitimate question that should be directed at TPTB.?* The character of Dr. Keller reacted just as a regular person would have.I Agree 100%. Dr. Keller acted like any civilian given?* her situation. I know I would panic if canibals were chasing me.

Aginor37
November 16th, 2007, 02:19 PM
You know, another thing came to me while I was reading over some of these responses. I think I finally, really understand why I think some of the Keller hate in this thread is a bit speculative (Everyone is entitled to their opinions, of course, and I do respect them; I just think that there's a bit of an unfair standard being applied).

I'm going to go out on a limb and say that no non-military person period, doctor or otherwise, would have been equally terrified. I realize I said that earlier, but here's what I think people aren't getting.

I am sure that the full scope of a medical officer's duties on Atlantis were brought up before she signed on. Dealing with new viruses and diseases, going to other worlds to provide medical support as part of a team, even battlefield medicine, again as medical support along with soldiers and other team members.

The events in Missing were completely outside the scope of anything any non-SG team member has ever encountered offworld. I doubt the possibility of that happening was ever presented to her, because let's face it; Nobody ever thinks "well, there's always a possibility that on a routine trip to friendly territory, you could be hunted by previously-unknown cannibals for a day or so, with an encounter with a wraith worshipper thrown in for spice" because hey, who thinks stuff like that is ever going to happen? :)

Seriously though, she isn't a part of the exploratory team (Sheppard, other teams; personnel), she is support staff who was caught in a one in a million situation. Note that she did perform her actual job (stitching up a supposedly innocent man) with due skill and diligence while under the pressure of being hunted. It's the other, unforeseeable stuff that got to her, which is completely understandable.

So I would say that if she ever goes offworld into a situation similar to the one Dr. Frasier died in ala Heroes and cracks up, then it's time for the criticisms. But in this case, I think Keller deserves some slack.

CalmStorm
November 16th, 2007, 02:27 PM
<snipped>

Um just a question but who? Kinsey and any other civilian would have to sign a non disclosure aggrement. Just as would all military personell and any guests ie, Teal'c, Vala, Jonas, etc..This comes from expiernce mind you. Anyone who is let in to a top secret or above program either signs an NDA or a blind commitment.

Neither can I but you say plenty others just exactly who? It is possible that many like the military would already know but Carson was the one that said that and it makes sense for the civilian screening. However regardless it is higlhy possible she didn't look before she lept. In other words didn't realise just what she got herself into.

<snipped>

In regards to my comment that it is not as big a secret as it once was, there are plenty of people aware of the stargate now as opposed to when it was first discovered. Yes, they sign a non-disclosure, but as time has gone on, many more know about the program and have signed the non-disclosures.

As for who, many more governments and their scientist are aware of the stargate. Any non-military scientist on Atlantis is aware of the stargate. As the stargate program continues to grow, so do the number of people involved. Many more military personnel are aware of the stargate than previously. The IOA and its members are aware of the stargate.

Hence, more people are aware of the secret beyond military personnel.


I have no disputes with NDAs. I do question how 'blind' the blind commitment is and the purpose it serves. However, I realize now that I have moved away from the topic of this thread and will try to bring my focus back to the topic. :o

Of course, one of the possibilities is that Keller leaped before she looked. Another possibility is that, as Keller said, she knew exactly what she was signing up for. Perhaps, like others, she signed a non-disclosure and was informed of the position and given an opportunity to accept or decline. Or perhaps, she was already a doctor at the SGC and was given the opportunity to transfer. Regardless of the situation with which she found herself in the Pegasus Galaxy (known or unknown), she should have developed at the very least, basic self-defense skills to prepare her for off-world travel since her arrival.

jelgate
November 16th, 2007, 02:55 PM
]l ?* Regardless of the situation with which she found herself in the Pegasus Galaxy (known or unknown), she should have developed at the very least, basic self-defense skills to prepare her for off-world travel since her arrival.Why would a medical doctor who would normally not go into hostile territories need to learn self-defense situation. The name of the episode escapes me at the moment, the one where Micheal made giant Iratus bugs, began with Ronan to teach McKay self-defense. McKay still couldn't defend himself in hand to hand combat like Dr. Keller

CalmStorm
November 16th, 2007, 03:00 PM
Why would a medical doctor who would normally not go into hostile territories need to learn self-defense situation. The name of the episode escapes me at the moment, the one where Micheal made giant Iratus bugs, began with Ronan to teach McKay self-defense. McKay still couldn't defend himself in hand to hand combat like Dr. Keller

They are in a hostile environment in the Pegasus Galaxy, that is the norm. As the doctor, she will undoubtedly need to go off-world from time to time and it seems likely that she would encounter hostile situations. Beyond off-world, we have seen the inside of the city itself play-out some hostile situations.

McKay's defense skills do leave something to be desired, but at the very least he is getting the training.

In my opinion, anyone thrown in that type of environment should be required to have self-defense training, regardless of their primary function on the base. Not all of them will be the best at, but at least they will have been trained and exposed to the very basics of self-defense.

jelgate
November 16th, 2007, 03:20 PM
They are in a hostile environment in the Pegasus Galaxy, that is the norm.?* As the doctor, she will undoubtedly need to go off-world from time to time and it seems likely that she would encounter hostile situations.It was mentioned by someone else and I beleive it still has merit. If Dr. Keller panics while atttending to a patient then I'll agree with you. I can speak from experence that when you a trying to help?* a friend that you forget about your personal well-being ?*
Beyond off-world, we have seen the inside of the city itself play-out some hostile situations.We have seen Dr. Keller behave rationally when there have problems in the city ie Adrift and Tabula Rasa.
McKay's defense skills do leave something to be desired, but at the very least he is getting the training.?* McKay should have defense skills. He is a member of Sheppards (they should give those teams names) and should be able to defend himself because he is dangerous situations quite often

CalmStorm
November 16th, 2007, 03:38 PM
It was mentioned by someone else and I beleive it still has merit. If Dr. Keller panics while atttending to a patient then I'll agree with you. I can speak from experence that when you a trying to help?* a friend that you forget about your personal well-being ?*

I'm not sure I understand this paragraph.


We have seen Dr. Keller behave rationally when there have problems in the city ie Adrift and Tabula Rasa.?* McKay should have defense skills. He is a member of Sheppards (they should give those teams names) and should be able to defend himself because he is dangerous situations quite often

I believe the Atlantis offworld teams are referred to as AR1, AR2, etc , for Atlantis Reconnaissance.

As far as problems in the city, I was referring to incursions, such as when the Genii entered the city to attack and on the numerous occasions the wraith have been present in the city. This situation has not occurred while she has been there, but it's a possibility that something of that nature could happen again.

I am not looking for Keller and the other scientist to be able to fight successfully against a wraith or a trained Genii soldier. I am looking for her and the others to be exposed to basic self-defense tactics so that they are at least, a little familiar with defense when those situations arise. Also, so they are not as great a liability to those who are suited for combat.

I believe that Keller would have benefited from basic self-defense and survival training, especially in this situation.

I guess in the end, I would think that anyone going to another galaxy would not only be required to train in basic self-defense and survival skills, but would want to do so.

Agent_Dark
November 16th, 2007, 03:44 PM
keller owned, get over it. kneecapping noobs 9mm represent

jelgate
November 16th, 2007, 03:45 PM
You are 100% correct

Agent_Dark
November 16th, 2007, 04:55 PM
no doubt

Avenger
November 16th, 2007, 05:20 PM
They are in a hostile environment in the Pegasus Galaxy, that is the norm. As the doctor, she will undoubtedly need to go off-world from time to time and it seems likely that she would encounter hostile situations. Beyond off-world, we have seen the inside of the city itself play-out some hostile situations.

McKay's defense skills do leave something to be desired, but at the very least he is getting the training.

In my opinion, anyone thrown in that type of environment should be required to have self-defense training, regardless of their primary function on the base. Not all of them will be the best at, but at least they will have been trained and exposed to the very basics of self-defense.

All the training in the world can only prepare you so much for what happens in the real world. I started EMS training las fall and wildland firefighting training in the spring. It was great. I learned a lot. However, all the practice patient assessments I did in class didn't properly prepare me for the first time I had to deal with a patient who was in bad shape. All the training I did to fight fires certainly helped, but I was shaky out on my first fire because of a lack of real fire line experience.

Any one who thinks that training would really prepare someone to deal with what Keller had to deal with in Missing is sadly mistaken and has never done a job that can even be considered close to life threatening. Training can not replicate the stress of a real world life and death situation. You have to experience it and learn from it.

jelgate
November 16th, 2007, 05:24 PM
Avenger, picture two hands. Those two hands are cappling because of your post. To futhur explain, I kinda know what your saying. Four years ago, when I was in high school, I got CPR certified. Practicing on this manichins helped but it isn't the same when you have to try to rescitate a person. I actually had to do it once.

Avenger
November 16th, 2007, 05:27 PM
And that's where you really learn. When you put those skills into real world use.

CalmStorm
November 16th, 2007, 05:46 PM
All the training in the world can only prepare you so much for what happens in the real world. I started EMS training las fall and wildland firefighting training in the spring. It was great. I learned a lot. However, all the practice patient assessments I did in class didn't properly prepare me for the first time I had to deal with a patient who was in bad shape. All the training I did to fight fires certainly helped, but I was shaky out on my first fire because of a lack of real fire line experience.

Any one who thinks that training would really prepare someone to deal with what Keller had to deal with in Missing is sadly mistaken and has never done a job that can even be considered close to life threatening. Training can not replicate the stress of a real world life and death situation. You have to experience it and learn from it.

Of course there is nothing to truly prepare you like experience. However, how much more shaky would you have been without the training and the knowledge that training provided? Was the training completely useless?

I wouldn't particularly want a fresh faced, brand new EMT treating me, especially if that EMT did not go through any kind of preparation or training. I would expect that EMT to have training, and then to continue that training in the field. I would expect that EMT to be apprenticing with one who had field experience.

As I said previously, I would not expect Keller to be able to go out and kick a**. I would expect her to be just as shaky as she was. This is one experience that she will be able to build upon. At the same time, I still believe that training would be advisable for anyone in that position.

To me, some basic self-defense training and survival skills training would seem to be a no brainer. However, at this point, I'll just have to move along and agree to disagree.

wraith form Replicator
November 16th, 2007, 05:58 PM
I like her.

Mitchell82
November 16th, 2007, 06:06 PM
In regards to my comment that it is not as big a secret as it once was, there are plenty of people aware of the stargate now as opposed to when it was first discovered. Yes, they sign a non-disclosure, but as time has gone on, many more know about the program and have signed the non-disclosures.

As for who, many more governments and their scientist are aware of the stargate. Any non-military scientist on Atlantis is aware of the stargate. As the stargate program continues to grow, so do the number of people involved. Many more military personnel are aware of the stargate than previously. The IOA and its members are aware of the stargate.

Hence, more people are aware of the secret beyond military personnel.


I have no disputes with NDAs. I do question how 'blind' the blind commitment is and the purpose it serves. However, I realize now that I have moved away from the topic of this thread and will try to bring my focus back to the topic. :o
Agreed and you're right we have no idea how blind those commitments are.


Of course, one of the possibilities is that Keller leaped before she looked. Another possibility is that, as Keller said, she knew exactly what she was signing up for. Perhaps, like others, she signed a non-disclosure and was informed of the position and given an opportunity to accept or decline. Or perhaps, she was already a doctor at the SGC and was given the opportunity to transfer. Regardless of the situation with which she found herself in the Pegasus Galaxy (known or unknown), she should have developed at the very least, basic self-defense skills to prepare her for off-world travel since her arrival.
I see your point but I still disagree that she should have had training when her field doesn't require it.

PG15
November 17th, 2007, 12:22 PM
Of course there is nothing to truly prepare you like experience. However, how much more shaky would you have been without the training and the knowledge that training provided? Was the training completely useless?

That raises a question: Did Keller get trained?

I mean, a lot of people seemed to have assumed that she didn't just because she was "panicking", but now that we understand that training doesn't rule out panic, maybe she DID get training but it really didn't prepare her well enough?

Or did I miss a line in the episode that makes this whole argument of mine moot?

BoyNamedSue
November 17th, 2007, 01:02 PM
She was unsure of being given the CMO position after Carson was gone. She was scared when she was being chased by cannibals. It was her first off-world mission. Your real issue is why they chose a civilian doctor instead of military doctor with field experience, which is a legitimate question that should be directed at TPTB. The character of Dr. Keller reacted just as a regular person would have.

I have asked JoeM in the comments of his blog on numerous occasions - nice and polite - and was either ignored or rewarded with a snarky response.

I guess that's my problem with Keller. As I've mentioned before, she and everyone else recruited for PG should not be 'regular' and 'ordinary', they are supposed to be the BEST and the brightest. This means being able to deal with what's thrown at them, and most of the time it will mean extraordinary, dangerous situations. Following this reasoning, it seems that a successful senior 'officer' (civilian or military) on Atlantis should have the following (in no particular order):

CMO (or other senior position)= self-confidence + trust in own abilities + superior skills at the job + adequate surivial and self-defence skills + ability to perform under pressure + experience in all of the above.


That raises a question: Did Keller get trained?

I mean, a lot of people seemed to have assumed that she didn't just because she was "panicking", but now that we understand that training doesn't rule out panic, maybe she DID get training but it really didn't prepare her well enough?

Or did I miss a line in the episode that makes this whole argument of mine moot?

I think that training needs to go hand in hand with experience, and training alone will not IMO make up for the lack of experience. It is being assumed (by me anyway) that she has not had enough training in terms of self-defence/survival and that she has not had enough experience handling unexpected and dangerous situations, or applying her medical skills in combat. Therefore she is panicy and whiny, and unfit to be CMO.

Missing was literally a missed opportunity, as someone menitoned earlier (Arica?), where the writers could have had Keller find her inner strenght and some guts, and become a likable character who had overcome her limitations. And in order for this to work, the trun-around should have happened a lot earlier in the episode (like by the time they got to the rope bridge take it on bravely and do her best) and not at the very end. There could have been a lot of positive charachter development for Keller - instead we got choppy stop and go action from 'bravely' helping the Genii, cowering behind Teyla, not eating the earth-squid, deciding it's not so 'disgusting' after all and eating it, to shooting the same guy in the leg, but not before threatening him with a cliche action-hero kind of a line. All of this has left me very confused about the exact picture this episode was supposed to paint of Keller. Opinions, anyone?

PG15
November 17th, 2007, 02:12 PM
I think that training needs to go hand in hand with experience, and training alone will not IMO make up for the lack of experience. It is being assumed (by me anyway) that she has not had enough training in terms of self-defence/survival and that she has not had enough experience handling unexpected and dangerous situations, or applying her medical skills in combat. Therefore she is panicy and whiny, and unfit to be CMO.

But that just goes against what Avenger said. No way can training prepare you for everything that's out there, and in this case Keller was faced with something that the training didn't cover very well, apparently.

BoyNamedSue
November 17th, 2007, 03:19 PM
But that just goes against what Avenger said. No way can training prepare you for everything that's out there, and in this case Keller was faced with something that the training didn't cover very well, apparently.

That's why it's necessary to also have PREVIOUS experience.

jelgate
November 17th, 2007, 03:23 PM
That's why it's necessary to also have PREVIOUS experience.Why get experence in an area that you are rarely in. Training can only do so much. Its not like a doctor needs to be trained to fight. The only time a doctor would go offworld in a hostile situation is to care for an injured patient. The doctor would be too busy tending to a patient to fight off an attack

SG13-NightOps
November 17th, 2007, 03:40 PM
That's why it's necessary to also have PREVIOUS experience.

I can so totally see that!
IOA Stooge: "Now Doctor, Last Question before we can consider you. What are your experiences in other galaxies with life sucking aliens or the extras from LoTR?"

Yep, because having civie doctors on earth with integalatic warfare experiences (Despite having never seen the stargate) is totally believable.

Best in her field is not necessarily the same as the best in the field. They were after the best Doctors and scientists - not the best fighters who also happen to be doctors and scientists. Knowing that for a fact, and knowing that as far as she knew, she was going to give check ups and candy to Athosian kids, NOT go into the battle field completely unarmed and unprepared, the situation is far more believable.

Kanetsidohi
November 17th, 2007, 04:33 PM
I guess that's my problem with Keller. As I've mentioned before, she and everyone else recruited for PG should not be 'regular' and 'ordinary', they are supposed to be the BEST and the brightest.

That's what I feel too. These people went to other galaxy, the very thought is frightening! Even if it's natural to have some fear, there must be confidence and power inside or that fear can cause harm.


Missing was literally a missed opportunity, as someone menitoned earlier (Arica?), where the writers could have had Keller find her inner strenght and some guts, and become a likable character who had overcome her limitations. And in order for this to work, the trun-around should have happened a lot earlier in the episode (like by the time they got to the rope bridge take it on bravely and do her best) and not at the very end. There could have been a lot of positive charachter development for Keller - instead we got choppy stop and go action from 'bravely' helping the Genii, cowering behind Teyla, not eating the earth-squid, deciding it's not so 'disgusting' after all and eating it, to shooting the same guy in the leg, but not before threatening him with a cliche action-hero kind of a line. All of this has left me very confused about the exact picture this episode was supposed to paint of Keller. Opinions, anyone?

I understand what you say because I feel the same since "First Strike."

I dare to think the writers still don't know whom she really is and write Keller as two separate entities. In the same ep she's annoying/endearing, insecure/focused, cold/caring, spoiled/mature.

I understand the idea of "Missing," putting then in danger to show that Keller is not a field doctor, that she's an average person whom panic at being in such a dangerous situation to finally, let us see how she overcoming it all.

But the execution was poorly done. I can understand her being afraid, who wouldn't? But they didn't need to make her so utterly afraid that she recedes to being a five years old, a very annoying five years old. If I have any hope about liking Keller in the future, this episode crushed it.

Ironic, but I think "Missing" is a tittle more fitting that ever because of the opportunities lost for character development. Not just for Keller but Teyla as well.

PG15
November 17th, 2007, 05:40 PM
That's why it's necessary to also have PREVIOUS experience.

...with savage cannibals?

jelgate
November 17th, 2007, 05:44 PM
...with savage cannibals?How do you gain experence for fighting cannibals? :S

BoyNamedSue
November 17th, 2007, 05:59 PM
Why get experence in an area that you are rarely in. Training can only do so much. Its not like a doctor needs to be trained to fight. The only time a doctor would go offworld in a hostile situation is to care for an injured patient. The doctor would be too busy tending to a patient to fight off an attack


I can so totally see that!
IOA Stooge: "Now Doctor, Last Question before we can consider you. What are your experiences in other galaxies with life sucking aliens or the extras from LoTR?"

Yep, because having civie doctors on earth with integalatic warfare experiences (Despite having never seen the stargate) is totally believable.

Best in her field is not necessarily the same as the best in the field. They were after the best Doctors and scientists - not the best fighters who also happen to be doctors and scientists. Knowing that for a fact, and knowing that as far as she knew, she was going to give check ups and candy to Athosian kids, NOT go into the battle field completely unarmed and unprepared, the situation is far more believable.

You've misunderstood me - in Keller's case, she should have experience practicing medicine in the field (combat/dangerous situations), and be able to do it under extraordinary pressure without second-guessing herself, since it is reasonable to assume that she will find herself in unusual and/threatening circumstances in PG.

Also, like someone else said, if she has NO training/experience in defending herself, she becomes a liability. It's fine and well when a doctor (not trained in combat) has a military escort, but what happens when that escort is killed off in an assault? The doctor should just wave a white flag, or fend for him/herself?

jelgate
November 17th, 2007, 06:10 PM
You've misunderstood me
My apolgys

- in Keller's case, she should have experience practicing medicine in the field (combat/dangerous situations) - and YES, have some self-defence training AND experience - since it is reasonable that she will encounter unusual and/threatening circumstances in PG. Like someone else said, if she has NO training/experience in defending herself, she becomes a liability. Also, it's fine and well when a doctor (not trained in combat) has a military escort, but what happens when that escort is killed off in an assault? The doctor should just wave a white flag, or fend for him/herself?
It wouldn't make sense for the SGC to spend to money to train doctors. They rarely go offworld into hostile situation. The only time is when a patient is seriously wounded (ie Heroes). In that experence you block out everything that is going on you except caring to that person. If you don't beleive me ask, Avenger he is an EMS.

PG15
November 17th, 2007, 07:00 PM
You've misunderstood me - in Keller's case, she should have experience practicing medicine in the field (combat/dangerous situations), and be able to do it under extraordinary pressure without second-guessing herself, since it is reasonable to assume that she will find herself in unusual and/threatening circumstances in PG.

Which she did when she treating Nabel. She was a doctor in a hostile situation, and yet she healed him up pretty well. Seems to me she did have some training after all.

However, last I checked, crossing rope bridges despite vertigo and fighting cannibals are not part of "practicing medicine in the field".


Also, like someone else said, if she has NO training/experience in defending herself, she becomes a liability. It's fine and well when a doctor (not trained in combat) has a military escort, but what happens when that escort is killed off in an assault? The doctor should just wave a white flag, or fend for him/herself?

Pretty much. That's why doctors have military escorts, no? Besides, if the escorts are all killed, what chance will a doctor have, trained or otherwise?

BoyNamedSue
November 17th, 2007, 07:33 PM
That's what I feel too. These people went to other galaxy, the very thought is frightening! Even if it's natural to have some fear, there must be confidence and power inside or that fear can cause harm.

I understand what you say because I feel the same since "First Strike."

I dare to think the writers still don't know whom she really is and write Keller as two separate entities. In the same ep she's annoying/endearing, insecure/focused, cold/caring, spoiled/mature.

I understand the idea of "Missing," putting then in danger to show that Keller is not a field doctor, that she's an average person whom panic at being in such a dangerous situation to finally, let us see how she overcoming it all.

But the execution was poorly done. I can understand her being afraid, who wouldn't? But they didn't need to make her so utterly afraid that she recedes to being a five years old, a very annoying five years old. If I have any hope about liking Keller in the future, this episode crushed it.

Ironic, but I think "Missing" is a tittle more fitting that ever because of the opportunities lost for character development. Not just for Keller but Teyla as well.

Claudia

Well said, Claudia! Talk about a split personality, eh? I think the writers would do themselves and us, viewers, a favour if they'd finally decide which side of the fence she's on: forever self-doubting or finally developing some backbone..?


Which she did when she treating Nabel. She was a doctor in a hostile situation, and yet she healed him up pretty well. Seems to me she did have some training after all.

However, last I checked, crossing rope bridges despite vertigo and fighting cannibals are not part of "practicing medicine in the field".

Pretty much. That's why doctors have military escorts, no? Besides, if the escorts are all killed, what chance will a doctor have, trained or otherwise?

Maybe having vertigo should have disqualified her from joining the expedition, because with all her shortcomings, SGC could sure find someone WITHOUT the vertigo, who was equally, if not more, qualified to fill the job.

I say let's send her off-world to some Wraith-infested planet, where the escort comprising of redshirts is promptly killed off, Keller is kidnapped by rabid replicators and never heard from again.

jelgate
November 17th, 2007, 07:40 PM
Maybe having vertigo should have disqualified her from joining the expedition, because with all her shortcomings, SGC could sure find someone WITHOUT the vertigo, who was equally, if not more, qualified to fill the job.
CARTER:If your fear your fired. I want you off my base.
*10 minutes later
Carter stands in deserted Atlantis. We all have a fear



I say let's send her off-world to some Wraith-infested planet, where the escort comprising of redshirts is promptly killed off, Keller is kidnapped by rabid replicators and never heard from again.
We got rid of Weir,Beckett,and Ford. You want to kill off a fourth character

PG15
November 17th, 2007, 07:46 PM
Well said, Claudia! Talk about a split personality, eh? I think the writers would do themselves and us, viewers, a favour if they'd finally decide which side of the fence she's on: forever self-doubting or finally developing some backbone..?

A bit of both is impossible now? Surely you've heard of people developing into a stronger person but who can still revert back to their old nature given the right circumstances?


Maybe having vertigo should have disqualified her from joining the expedition,

What about McKay's various allergies (or Daniel's)?


SGC could sure find someone WITHOUT the vertigo, who was equally, if not more, qualified to fill the job.

How do you know this? How can you be so "sure"?

SG13-NightOps
November 18th, 2007, 05:53 AM
You've misunderstood me - in Keller's case, she should have experience practicing medicine in the field (combat/dangerous situations), and be able to do it under extraordinary pressure without second-guessing herself, since it is reasonable to assume that she will find herself in unusual and/threatening circumstances in PG.

Also, like someone else said, if she has NO training/experience in defending herself, she becomes a liability. It's fine and well when a doctor (not trained in combat) has a military escort, but what happens when that escort is killed off in an assault? The doctor should just wave a white flag, or fend for him/herself?

Why? She wasn't going into the field. Thats where she ended up, yes, but she was going to New Athos - not even Teyla came prepared "just in case". No one expected savage cannibals.

They probably have military medics for triage in the field, and the best available Doctor as CMO.

dec55
November 18th, 2007, 07:47 AM
JS did Kellers complex feelings brilliantly....her character had a real transformation than most characters. I;d say it was one of the best this season.

BoyNamedSue
November 18th, 2007, 08:18 AM
Why? She wasn't going into the field. Thats where she ended up, yes, but she was going to New Athos - not even Teyla came prepared "just in case". No one expected savage cannibals.


She wasn't going in the field this time. So - if I follow your reasoning - in Missing, Keller was not prepared to deal with the danger because it was UNEXPECTED, but somehow she'll find the courage and ability - let's say a week later - to function (as a doctor/member of the expedition) in a threateing situation, because she's been made aware of it prior to stepping through the gate? Is that what you mean?



We got rid of Weir,Beckett,and Ford. You want to kill off a fourth character

I never said I wanted any of these three to go. If Carson would still be around, we wouldn't be having this discussion. Hey, it's sci-fi, they can always bring them back. But they won't.

And yes, I wouldn't mind if Keller would meet an untimely and horrifying end. Hopefully by the end of season 4. But that's not going to happen.





What about McKay's various allergies (or Daniel's)?

How do you know this? How can you be so "sure"?

It's been well established that McKay and Daniel Jackson are THE foremost experts in their respective fields, especially as related to the Stargate. Keller - not so much - at least NOT that we've been shown so far. We just have to take Joe M's word that she's "brilliant".

Can you be 'sure' that there were no better qualified candidate? They've fetched Carter from earth to replace Weir, couldn't they also get a qualified & experienced doctor to replace Beckett?

jelgate
November 18th, 2007, 08:24 AM
I never said I wanted any of these three to go. If Carson would still be around, we wouldn't be having this discussion. Hey, it's sci-fi, they can always bring them back. But they won't.

And yes, I wouldn't mind if Keller would meet an untimely and horrifying end. Hopefully by the end of season 4. But that's not going to happen.
At this point we'll have to agree to disagree because she is just as talanted as Beckett




McKay and Daniel Jackson are THE foremost experts in their respective fields, especially as related to the Stargate. Keller - not so much - at least NOT that we've been shown so far. We just have to take Joe M's word that she's "brillant
To quotePG15, oh ye off little faith. That medical work on Weir in Adrift was fantastic

Can you be 'sure' that there were no better qualified candidate? They've fetched Carter from earth to replace Weir, couldn't they also get a qualified & experienced doctor to replace Beckett?[/QUOTE]
Who said Keller isn't quailified and experence. Atlantis is made up of the best of the best meaning would have to be experenced and quailifies

CalmStorm
November 18th, 2007, 09:04 AM
At this point we'll have to agree to disagree because she is just as talanted as Beckett




To quotePG15, oh ye off little faith. That medical work on Weir in Adrift was fantastic



How can we honestly know in the few episodes that we've seen her in if she is just as talented as Beckett?

Beckett is the one who not only discovered the ancient gene, but was also the one who was able to synthesis it and introduce it into others without the gene (Hide and Seek). He is the one who developed the retro-virus (Michael). He is the one who assisted with the completion of the drug to prevent wraith feeding (Poisoning the Well). These are just a few examples. What have we seen from Keller up to this point to indicate that she is just as talented as Beckett?

As far as Adrift, she provided what seemed to be standard medical care for someone with a brain injury. However, it was McKay who was able to reprogram the nanites in Adrift that saved Weir's life. I cannot use this episode alone to place her on the same brilliant level as Beckett.

That is not to say she is less talented than Beckett or is not just as capable. It is only to say, based on what has been presented, it seems there is not enough evidence to place her on the same pedastool as Beckett at the moment.

SG13-NightOps
November 18th, 2007, 09:18 AM
She wasn't going in the field this time. So - if I follow your reasoning - in Missing, Keller was not prepared to deal with the danger because it was UNEXPECTED, but somehow she'll find the courage and ability - let's say a week later - to function (as a doctor/member of the expedition) in a threateing situation, because she's been made aware of it prior to stepping through the gate? Is that what you mean?
No, I am saying that there is no proof that she is expected to go into an actual battle field. Janet did because she is a military doctor. Keller isn't. She is a civilian Doctor and would probably not be sent into the field. She is not the only medic on the base - they probably have Medics qualified to do that. She would probably only be expected to go off world for the fuzzy work - like check ups on known safe worlds.

But just because she can't defend herself - does not mean she is incorrectly assigned as CMO.




Can you be 'sure' that there were no better qualified candidate? They've fetched Carter from earth to replace Weir, couldn't they also get a qualified & experienced doctor to replace Beckett?

Well, if you take on board the fact that they already have the best people willing to sign the blind commitment at Atlantis (Intruder) - then Yes, I can be sure there is no better qualified candidate.

atfan
November 18th, 2007, 12:13 PM
Hmm I have mixed reactions.
She was annoying. I find it hard to believe that Carter would have allowed Keller to go offworld with no training. Add to that the fact that back in season two of SG-1, they established training for civilians stationed at the SGC. So are we as fans supposed to believe that Keller somehow skipped the training or neither Carter or Sheppard or even Beckett when he was alive noticed the fact that she had no training what so ever?

I think this was a major oversight by the powers that be. Why oh why do they have to portray the female characters as weak? Everyone knows even a so-called safe planet can harbor danger for the unprepared?

The rope bridge thing didn't bother me as much as the whole oh no bad guys what should I do? I could see her having a fear of heights or something but jeez she was scared and whining the entire time. Add to that, the fact even basic field skills like evading the enemy and using stealth seemed beyond her.

I see her being scared when she is captured but the whole time? When she accepted the Atlantis job what did she think complete safety all the time?
It did a great disservice to her character especially since most people really liked Beckett and were sad to see him go.

I tried to give her character a chance I even started to like her but now I find that I am back to square one.

I just saw the seer episode and she is somewhat back to normal.

I would love to have an episode where Keller was adequately trained in field ops. Not a weapons master but able and willing to use a weapon to defend herself or her team in an emergency.
scared in some aspects but brave enough and tough enough to handle the pressure.
Telya trying to help her overcome her fears and getting to know each other.
I think I might have to write a fan fic fix to this episode.
End rant*

atfan
November 18th, 2007, 01:16 PM
My apolgys

It wouldn't make sense for the SGC to spend to money to train doctors. They rarely go offworld into hostile situation. The only time is when a patient is seriously wounded (ie Heroes). In that experence you block out everything that is going on you except caring to that person. If you don't beleive me ask, Avenger he is an EMS.

I am sorry to have to disagree it would make perfect sense. Even if you are a civilian and you are posted on a military base or post the military requires you to take a course in basic field operations. I was a hospital corpsman and I had to take such a course before I could advance to E-4 Petty Officer. During the course I was stationed with a bunch of Marines and learned the basic of search and evasion SAR training and field medicine are you telling me a doctor wouldn't have the same course , of course not. In fact some of the other members of my class were civilian doctors and nurses that were stationed at other bases in the military.

Add to that the fact the facts that the SGC has such a training course for civillains Daniel attended it and so did Jonas. Why not Keller as well? What made her so special that she somehow skipped the training? With Landry in charge I maybe buy it but Weir should have made her attend before being stationed in Atlantis.

Janet went offworld alot more than that. Singularity was the first time and there are others as well.

SG13-NightOps
November 18th, 2007, 02:29 PM
I would love to have an episode where Keller was adequately trained in field ops. Not a weapons master but able and willing to use a weapon to defend herself or her team in an emergency.
scared in some aspects but brave enough and tough enough to handle the pressure.
Telya trying to help her overcome her fears and getting to know each other.
I think I might have to write a fan fic fix to this episode.
End rant*

You saw that in Missing. She saved Teyla and even shot Nable in the leg.

And with no training either!

Elite Anubis Guard
November 18th, 2007, 03:15 PM
I'm a little confused with her behavior because she'd be fearless when it comes to healing someone and cowardly when it comes to her own survival...

That's what makes her that bit more interesting and believable, if you ask me. Plenty of people are like that. And it makes her more admirable if she cares more about other people than herself. Lets face it. Sheppard is the same. So are many COs. Just Keller might seem weaker, is all.

MechaThor
November 19th, 2007, 03:31 AM
I liked her. the only bit I bit not like was when she feel of the rope bridge. But that was only because I am still waiting for the day when someone in a film or TV DON'T fall of a rope bridge! :mckay:

Also I don't think this episode would have worked aswell with Carson as he has some understanding of how tosurvive in the woods and combat and will most likly be more fimilar with eating cool yet strange Forest Ground Squids.
Or as I call them the: "Greater-Spotted Forest Ground Squid" - (I want that to be its offical name!)

Commander Ivanova
November 19th, 2007, 05:11 AM
I liked her, shows promise. Nice touch when she toughened up enough to shoot the guy despite all her previous whining.
Enjoying all the female bonding going on between her and Teyla and Sam, by the way.

jenks
November 19th, 2007, 11:31 AM
I find it amusing how many Carson fans are complaining about whining, have they forgotten how much he used to do it?

Major Tyler
November 20th, 2007, 06:02 AM
I thought Keller was realistic in "Missing," but you have to take into account that people selected for the Stargate Program must have a little more mettle and common sense than she displayed.

When she started yelling after Teyla near bridge, and then started screaming her head off, Teyla should have lobbed a rock at her. I mean, when you're being HUNTED BY CANNIBALS you don't really want to be giving away your position by shrieking like a maniac. I don't care how scary the wobbly bridge is, being EATEN BY CANNIBALS is much scarier.

I also thought she was incredibly petty and insensitive when Teyla heard that all her people were dead. Teyla is now the last survivor of a dead people, and all Keller can talk about is how "eating gross food" is the worst thing she can imagine. I was not impressed.

jelgate
November 20th, 2007, 06:37 AM
I thought Keller was realistic in "Missing," but you have to take into account that people selected for the Stargate Program must have a little more mettle and common sense than she displayed.

When she started yelling after Teyla near bridge, and then started screaming her head off, Teyla should have lobbed a rock at her. I mean, when you're being HUNTED BY CANNIBALS you don't really want to be giving away your position by shrieking like a maniac. I don't care how scary the wobbly bridge is, being EATEN BY CANNIBALS is much scarier.
I'm sorry but I am going to have to disagree with you on that one. As I said before, it is hard to get rid of your fears. You can't nhonestly tell me that you would be panicing if you were being hunted by cannibals. I find it part of human nature to be scarad that is so far out of a persons area of expertise. Its only Keller nature to panic considering she has no experence with going offworld and fighting. Beside cannibals can be scary, I know I would be screaming.

MechaThor
November 20th, 2007, 07:55 AM
I thought Keller was realistic in "Missing," but you have to take into account that people selected for the Stargate Program must have a little more mettle and common sense than she displayed.

When she started yelling after Teyla near bridge, and then started screaming her head off, Teyla should have lobbed a rock at her. I mean, when you're being HUNTED BY CANNIBALS you don't really want to be giving away your position by shrieking like a maniac. I don't care how scary the wobbly bridge is, being EATEN BY CANNIBALS is much scarier.

I also thought she was incredibly petty and insensitive when Teyla heard that all her people were dead. Teyla is now the last survivor of a dead people, and all Keller can talk about is how "eating gross food" is the worst thing she can imagine. I was not impressed.

At the point inwhich Keller was moaning about eating the Greater-spotted Grpund Squid, both her and teyla still did not know where the athosians had gone. They did not know if Teyla was the infact the last of her people. Even if that was the case, It would not stop you from moaning about eating gross food. I am sure even Mckay would have still moaned if it was him not keller, maybe even Carson would of.

I also Though here shouting after Teyla on the rope bridge was a bit silly, But if you was panicing out in an unkown woods, beings hunted my cannibals I am sure you would not be thinking stright. Especailly if you are new to all the off world stuff. Finally, Keller is affraid of hights (Atlantis is made of tall building however?) and she was hanging off a rope bridge, with rocks and water below, she also did not known if Teyla would come back, there4 screaming would be allowed. Would you hang near death from a rope bridge and be very calm and quite about it? I doubt it.

Major Tyler
November 20th, 2007, 10:32 AM
At the point inwhich Keller was moaning about eating the Greater-spotted Grpund Squid, both her and teyla still did not know where the athosians had gone. They did not know if Teyla was the infact the last of her people.They were told so by the "Genii" they rescued, and they had no reason to disbelieve him at the time.
Even if that was the case, It would not stop you from moaning about eating gross food. I am sure even Mckay would have still moaned if it was him not keller, maybe even Carson would of.Yeah, I'd be too emotionally destroyed to eat anything, much less whine.
I also Though here shouting after Teyla on the rope bridge was a bit silly, But if you was panicing out in an unkown woods, beings hunted my cannibals I am sure you would not be thinking stright.While I find your assertion that you "know" what my state of mind would be to be narcessistic, I can assure you that my fear of being CAPTURED BY CANNIBALS would override my instinct to scream my head off.
Especailly if you are new to all the off world stuff. Finally, Keller is affraid of hights (Atlantis is made of tall building however?) and she was hanging off a rope bridge, with rocks and water below, she also did not known if Teyla would come back, there4 screaming would be allowed.It's not like screaming makes a difference, and even if it did, she should have allowed herself to plummet to her death rather than risk Teyla's life by giving away both of their positions. Keller clearly is not cut out for the Stargate program. I'm not saying she's a bad person or a bad doctor, just that this kind of work is not for her. Why she was let near a Stargate I cannot fathom. Put her at Area 51-Medical, or something.
Would you hang near death from a rope bridge and be very calm and quite about it? I doubt it.I wouldn't have been foolish enough to fall.

ciannwn
November 20th, 2007, 01:57 PM
I've got nothing against the idea of Keller being frightened in this situation. After all, this was realistic for a girl with her background. The problem I have with her is the way she was made to show fear. People can react in all kinds of ways so why did they have to make her so 'little girly scared'? I found her irritating, not appealing, and so did my husband.

The Pegasus galaxy is known to be a war zone now so why didn't Earth send them a military doctor who's had experience with working in dangerous situations? The doctor concerned needn't be the CMO but he/she could go on any offworld medical missions. Yes, I know it wouldn't have been a Keller story then but I'd much rather they'd come up with a different way of giving her some character growth.

PG15
November 20th, 2007, 09:18 PM
They were told so by the "Genii" they rescued, and they had no reason to disbelieve him at the time.

Actually, the Genii only told them those things AFTER the squid was caught and Keller rejected it.

Major Tyler
November 21st, 2007, 08:13 AM
Actually, the Genii only told them those things AFTER the squid was caught and Keller rejected it.I was talking about the scene after that when Keller did eventually eat the ground squid.

valaCB
November 23rd, 2007, 06:06 AM
Keler is awesome!

Roxystar49
November 24th, 2007, 03:46 PM
I kinda like keller. just because she's a doctor doesn't automatically mean she'll keep her wits about her when her life's on the line. Knowing that Teyla didn't have any weapons on her really didn't help the situation and ease her already frayed nerves. It's possible to have nerves of steel when doing surgery yet be a total wimp when facing your own fears (real or imagined) in a hostile environment. But the fact that she found the courage to face them is admirable and totally relatable.

She's young and inexperienced in these type of situations. But given some time hanging around Carter and Teyla, she'll learn to toughen up. After this incident Carter will no doubt have her take some basic self-defense training and weapons handling.

Now if Carter were with Teyla on that trip you know Sam would take no chances going off-world no matter how benign the situation would seem. She would have had a gun hidden away in her pack and maybe a knife in her boot. They'd kick some major butt and would've enjoyed torturing the Genii (the piece of scum that he is) for info about the whereabouts of the Athosians in no time and wouldn't have needed the boys to rescue them. :teylaanime03::samanime15:


I guess I don't know much about military policies or anything, but if she were to go off world, even if you're just mostly living on a safe base, you'd think they'd make EVERYONE, civilians especially take some basic self defense courses since they know what they're going into. (Space with occasional hostile aliens) Especially if they're military ran base. Even Beckett at the end was holding a gun. Otherwise, there are plenty of military doctors they could've chosen from. Of course, this isn't the case.

Aginor37
November 24th, 2007, 03:53 PM
I guess I don't know much about military policies or anything, but if she were to go off world, even if you're just mostly living on a safe base, you'd think they'd make EVERYONE, civilians especially take some basic self defense courses since they know what they're going into. (Space with occasional hostile aliens) Especially if they're military ran base. Even Beckett at the end was holding a gun. Otherwise, there are plenty of military doctors they could've chosen from. Of course, this isn't the case.

In the end, sure he was. But look how Carson acted in The Eye... couldn't keep his mouth shut (endangering Ford and Teyla in the process), jumping at everything, and basically being about as annoying as Keller in Missing (Annoying as in in-character, as I found both performances amusing).

Salas1
November 24th, 2007, 05:38 PM
Keller may pick up some self-defense skills in later episodes, however, she is not wired to hurt people.

Rumours of a ship between her and Ronon could mean he trains her in the deadly art of 'weirdhandmovementswhichscytheopponentstothegroundate/fu.

FoolishPleasure
November 28th, 2007, 02:05 PM
Rumours of a ship between her and Ronon could mean . . . .

Don't say anymore. That freaky idea is enough to make me seriously ill. :S

nelldevere
November 29th, 2007, 08:36 AM
I think Jewel Staite did a great job of showing the not-so confident girl suddenly outdoors faced with scary situations, but she is just not convicinn enough as the supposed medical team leader for such an important mission. Carson had presence, a deeply caring approach and he could handle pressure. In SG1 Janet Frasier was combat trained and she gave the impression of immense capability. Losing Carson was a massive mistake. Can't wait to see him again later in series 4.

jelgate
November 29th, 2007, 08:42 AM
Don't say anymore. That freaky idea is enough to make me seriously ill. :S
Agreed, but to fair I am not a fan of most ships.

I think Jewel Staite did a great job of showing the not-so confident girl suddenly outdoors faced with scary situations, but she is just not convicinn enough as the supposed medical team leader for such an important mission. Carson had presence, a deeply caring approach and he could handle pressure. In SG1 Janet Frasier was combat trained and she gave the impression of immense capability. Losing Carson was a massive mistake. Can't wait to see him again later in series 4.
I'm sorry, I don't see how Keller is uncaring and can't handle pressure. When Dr. Weir was dieing in Adrift Keller was able to handle the pressure.

Fenrir Foxz
November 29th, 2007, 12:59 PM
I'm sorry, I don't see how Keller is uncaring and can't handle pressure. When Dr. Weir was dieing in Adrift Keller was able to handle the pressure.

Yeah in her own field of expertise Dr Keller can take charge and handle pressure, I think she is a real credit to Atlantis...

Integrabyte
November 30th, 2007, 02:47 PM
Don't say anymore. That freaky idea is enough to make me seriously ill. :S

Keller and Ronon is like shooting yourself in the head to make a headache go away :P.

Avenger
November 30th, 2007, 03:00 PM
All of Keller's critics don't seem to want to mention that the "mission" was never supposed to have been dangerous. It was implied that Carson had been going to see the Athosians to take care of the medical needs. he never encountered any danger on the trip, so it was safe enough for them to assume that there was no threat for Keller or Teyla when they went either.

Integrabyte
November 30th, 2007, 03:04 PM
All of Keller's critics don't seem to want to mention that the "mission" was never supposed to have been dangerous. It was implied that Carson had been going to see the Athosians to take care of the medical needs. he never encountered any danger on the trip, so it was safe enough for them to assume that there was no threat for Keller or Teyla when they went either.


...did Carson go screaming and shouting when the Invisible monster attacked them? Did Carson insist to go back in the nest in Conversion? Was Carson a girly wirly character in those episodes? Nope...but hey....he ain't no teenage queen at the end of the day. I guess that counts more nowadays....geee...demographics...

jelgate
November 30th, 2007, 03:45 PM
...did Carson go screaming and shouting when the Invisible monster attacked them? Did Carson insist to go back in the nest in Conversion? Was Carson a girly wirly character in those episodes? Nope...but hey....he ain't no teenage queen at the end of the day. I guess that counts more nowadays....geee...demographics...
He was scarad in The Eye because he was new to combat just like Keller was in Missing. Whats with the new avatar

Jumper_One
November 30th, 2007, 03:46 PM
He was scarad in The Eye because he was new to combat just like Keller was in Missing. Whats with the new avatar

you don't like RepliCarter? :eek: :P

Integrabyte
November 30th, 2007, 04:46 PM
He was scarad in The Eye because he was new to combat just like Keller was in Missing. Whats with the new avatar

If that was scared then Keller was what? She was wearing a diaper...

Dusk
December 4th, 2007, 07:05 AM
Keller will cancel the show . Seeing Keller makes me realise how good Carson was. I didn't even like him that much but now, he is 5 times better than miss "fix it" .

Are you guys serious? Carson was just as big of a wimp as Keller, and just as much of a whiny biatch. The only difference is, Keller is younger, and may still yet come into her own as she gains more experience.

Granted she needed a firm slap in the start of "Missing" but there was character progression throughout this episode. And that is important, no matter how dismal the rest of the story.

HaHaHeHe
December 9th, 2007, 10:47 PM
i was starting to like Keller.....(its hard to replace Beket(spelling??))
but now ive seen what shes really like....i dont like her as much

delrey
January 21st, 2008, 05:29 PM
In my opinion i think that she has too little to offer the mission for how much complaining she does, i was not a huge fan of becket either but appreciated his ability to use acient tech and his willingness to go into battle situations to help, and as for rodney i think most people hate his complaining but i think his arrogance is funny and frankly he usualy is the savor- and keller well if i wasnt a big sg fan i would have turned off this episode after the first few minutes of her complaning and complete lack of professionalism, and if she wasnt so hott more people would hate her. I dont see the need to introduce her character to the storyline, except for the reason that sex sells.
But il still give her a slim chance

Major Tyler
January 21st, 2008, 05:35 PM
Ik verafschuw Keller.

jelgate
January 21st, 2008, 05:38 PM
Ik verafschuw Keller.Green to the person who translates

Jumper_One
January 21st, 2008, 05:40 PM
Green to the person who translates

I think Major Tyler hates Keller but I'm not sure

Major Tyler
January 21st, 2008, 05:50 PM
I think Major Tyler hates Keller but I'm not sure"Hate" is a bit of a strong word. BTW, why did you bold my name?

PG15
January 21st, 2008, 05:52 PM
I don't know about Jumper, but from where I come from, you typically bold a person's name out of respect.

Jumper_One
January 21st, 2008, 06:00 PM
"Hate" is a bit of a strong word. BTW, why did you bold my name?

so I was right? most people bold the name when they're mentioning someone without actually quoting them. that way it's just much more obvious who you're talking about


I don't know about Jumper, but from where I come from, you typically bold a person's name out of respect.

I guess that's another reason

Major Tyler
January 21st, 2008, 06:01 PM
so I was right?Not precisely.
I don't know about Jumper, but from where I come from, you typically bold a person's name out of respect.Really? To me it seems kinda sarcastic, like yelling someone's name every time you say it but speaking the rest of the sentence at a normal volume.

PG15
January 21st, 2008, 06:21 PM
Well, what I can say; I've been bolding names for years now to show respect and to make the name stand out.

Jumper_One
January 21st, 2008, 06:23 PM
Not precisely.

but you don't like her right?

jelgate
February 7th, 2008, 03:30 PM
Ik verafschuw Keller.Why do you loathe Keller?

Fenrir Foxz
February 7th, 2008, 05:20 PM
Well, what I can say; I've been bolding names for years now to show respect and to make the name stand out.

LoL... Same here, It never occured to me that some people would consider it shouting/expressing the name at a louder volume... I always thought writing in CAPITALS had that effect...

Jumper_One
February 7th, 2008, 05:32 PM
LoL... Same here, It never occured to me that some people would consider it shouting/expressing the name at a louder volume... I always thought writing in CAPITALS had that effect...

same here

Major Tyler
February 9th, 2008, 06:50 AM
Why do you loathe Keller?I think she is a completely ridiculous choice for Atlantis' chief of medicine. She'd be a fine character for a regular doctor, but not in charge. She's far too young, has no common sense, collapses at the smallest application of pressure, and she WHINES. ALL. THE. TIME.

A poor substitute for Carson.

P.S. I love Jewel, BTW, it's just Keller I find objectionable.

Save Carson
May 6th, 2010, 10:53 AM
Herp de derp i'm Keller i fall down and sprain my ankle derrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrr

Shippygirl
July 11th, 2010, 08:52 AM
Arrives several years late to the thread because I'm watching Atlantis episodes for the first time... I'm surprised no one mentioned Keller revealing confidential patient information. She told Teyla about Rodney's restless leg medication. That's supposed to be confidential.

The writers usually only breach doctor/patient confidentiality for a very good reason like when a commanding officer needs to know something about a patient because it could put the base at risk. I was disappointed that the writers wrote Keller casually revealing medical information about a person to his teammate. Sure, it's not a big as something like, "Yes, I know he's gay because I'm his doctor.", but it still is confidential information divulged for no reason.

Keller did get on my nerves in this episode, but she did improve near the end. I hope the writers write her getting training before the next time she is off-word. But, the SGA writers haven't done a good job of writing training (with the exception of Rodney) for civilians going off-world before now, so I don't hold out hope. :(

albatross
July 12th, 2010, 04:13 AM
I have a feeling I'm going to be in the minority here, but I really like Keller. Her nervousness is *slightly* annoying in this episode, but for me it was like the writers were saying: If you found yourself in this situation, how would you react? I reckon I'd react pretty much the same as Keller. I know she's supposed to have had training dealing with stressful off-world situations, etc, but she is relatively new and thrown in at the deep end when Carson "left". I think it's reasonable to have some characters in a show like this that aren't the obvious courageous hero types, but are actually more like real people. For me Keller makes this show even more accessible.

TennisMennis
August 14th, 2010, 08:26 PM
tell me please what you think to keller because i have heard mixed opinions about her. because i really think she was great but not many do she was wicked to hear her experince at summer camp!!

I've thought about this, and having just seen the episode, it is fresh in my mind. Keller played that part beautifully. I did chuckle when she took out a big bruising dude, but nevertheless, the problem for me with Keller is that she is no Carson. I am still grieving over losing Carson, thus, it is hard for me to appreciate Keller. Again I will say - Keller is fine, no complaints from me about her talent.

Erin
October 15th, 2011, 01:10 PM
Just want to say I've watched Atlantis all over again.... and this is by far a favorite episode and Keller is AWESOME in it!

Falcon Horus
October 16th, 2011, 02:39 PM
Just want to say I've watched Atlantis all over again.... and this is by far a favorite episode and Keller is AWESOME in it!

Too bad the episode was supposed to be all about Teyla... :S

jelgate
October 16th, 2011, 02:55 PM
It seemed like it was about both to me.

The Lady Blue
October 24th, 2011, 05:20 AM
I think that's the problem. At least it was for me. This was supposed to be Teyla's 'big' episode, and besides a couple of fight scenes it seemed like most of the episode was about Keller. It was a disappointment all the way around for me. This episode did a poor job of adding much of anything of consequence to the practically nonexistent Athosian storyline and the progression of the Teyla character. :(

gateraid
October 25th, 2011, 06:03 PM
I've been thinking about this ep lately. With the benefit of hindsight (it's oh so easy to say now, after the fact), I wonder if this episode wouldn't have been better if it were Teyla and Sheppard together? Or even Teyla and Ronon? It seemed like the reason for Keller being there at all was fairly contrived, although that could be said about many instances where a supporting character is added to to the 'away team'.

Killdeer
October 26th, 2011, 05:32 AM
I would have enjoyed a Teyla and Ronon episode, or a Teyla and Rodney episode - both things I wanted very much during the show's run and never got.

I actually would have enjoyed this the most as a Teyla and Elizabeth episode though. Unfortunately that wasn't possible. :(

I have wondered though if going into the episode with the expectation that it was going to be a Teyla-focused episode made any difference in how I saw it. Maybe I wouldn't have been quite as annoyed with it if I hadn't believed it was supposed to be our first Teyla episode in three seasons. :S I don't know.

I think I still would have been annoyed though. I mean, sure, Teyla was part of the story, but the A story definitely revolved around Jennifer. I think the problem was not so much that they gave Jennifer a "fish out of water" story, but that they decided they had to put it here. Teyla's fear and grief over the disappearance of her people - the revelation of Kanaan - none of those were considered important enough to spend more time on. No, Jennifer's flailings are considered more interesting. I think that's what the problem is. If they'd reversed the focus - if Teyla had been the main focus of the story and Jennifer's troubles more of a background thread - I think the episode would have gone over a whole lot better.

Southern Red
October 26th, 2011, 05:57 AM
I've been thinking about this ep lately. With the benefit of hindsight (it's oh so easy to say now, after the fact), I wonder if this episode wouldn't have been better if it were Teyla and Sheppard together? Or even Teyla and Ronon? It seemed like the reason for Keller being there at all was fairly contrived, although that could be said about many instances where a supporting character is added to to the 'away team'.

It's like Killdeer said, this seemed to be a "fish out of water" story, so they had to go with Keller. Now why they thought to make a supposedly Teyla-focused ep, a "fish out of water" story is the real question.

And as for it being better with someone else, Shep would have taken over, Ronon would have been too much like Teyla and Rodney would have been arguably even whinier than Keller. Elizabeth would have been perfect, but alas. Instead, we get an inside look at Teyla's more earthy side which we never see again. It would also have been a great place to introduce Kanaan in the flesh with a flashback.

Why is it that the further removed I get from this show, the worse I think these writers really were? No need to answer.

gateraid
October 26th, 2011, 06:40 AM
I would have enjoyed a Teyla and Ronon episode, or a Teyla and Rodney episode - both things I wanted very much during the show's run and never got.

I actually would have enjoyed this the most as a Teyla and Elizabeth episode though. Unfortunately that wasn't possible. :(

I have wondered though if going into the episode with the expectation that it was going to be a Teyla-focused episode made any difference in how I saw it. Maybe I wouldn't have been quite as annoyed with it if I hadn't believed it was supposed to be our first Teyla episode in three seasons. :S I don't know.

I think I still would have been annoyed though. I mean, sure, Teyla was part of the story, but the A story definitely revolved around Jennifer. I think the problem was not so much that they gave Jennifer a "fish out of water" story, but that they decided they had to put it here. Teyla's fear and grief over the disappearance of her people - the revelation of Kanaan - none of those were considered important enough to spend more time on. No, Jennifer's flailings are considered more interesting. I think that's what the problem is. If they'd reversed the focus - if Teyla had been the main focus of the story and Jennifer's troubles more of a background thread - I think the episode would have gone over a whole lot better.

Yeah, if it hadn't been hyped so much as a Teyla ep I may not have been so annoyed at the shift in focus. It's a real shame, because there's some dark stuff going on with Teyla, yet the emphasis is on Keller. The fact that Teyla is killing real people barely rates a mention. While eventually I grew to tolerate Keller, even like her in a couple of episodes, during s5, episodes like this did the character no favours.


It's like Killdeer said, this seemed to be a "fish out of water" story, so they had to go with Keller. Now why they thought to make a supposedly Teyla-focused ep, a "fish out of water" story is the real question.

And as for it being better with someone else, Shep would have taken over, Ronon would have been too much like Teyla and Rodney would have been arguably even whinier than Keller. Elizabeth would have been perfect, but alas. Instead, we get an inside look at Teyla's more earthy side which we never see again. It would also have been a great place to introduce Kanaan in the flesh with a flashback.

Why is it that the further removed I get from this show, the worse I think these writers really were? No need to answer.

They could have even used Carter in that ep, under the guise of meeting the Athosians for the first time. It might've been a valuable insight for Carter into Teyla's character and history. The flashback side of things hadn't occured to me, but that would've been an excellent way to go.

The Lady Blue
October 26th, 2011, 06:41 AM
I've been thinking about this ep lately. With the benefit of hindsight (it's oh so easy to say now, after the fact), I wonder if this episode wouldn't have been better if it were Teyla and Sheppard together? Or even Teyla and Ronon? It seemed like the reason for Keller being there at all was fairly contrived, although that could be said about many instances where a supporting character is added to to the 'away team'.

I guess Sheppard could have worked if the writers did a good job of balancing the focus. I don't know about the doctors though. Radek might have been interesting and he definitely would have been there to support Teyla. Beckett would have been better than Keller if they were going to keep the same premise for visiting the village. I could go for Weir if the story happened inside of the city of Atlantis. As a diplomat she doesn't have much field training, and by this time in the series she was already gone. McKay might have worked, but I doubt it. It wouldn't have been as bad as Keller, but it would have been close.

I guess I just really wanted an episode that told me more about Teyla as a person and about her people as she tried to find them. This could have been a very richly done two part episode about the quest to find her people and her journey in life as a leader, a woman, and a warrior. If they were going to go with Kannan they could have briefly introduced him, but I didn't care much for what I saw of the character. Just like Jewel, the actor is good. I think I saw him when he either guest starred on Fringe or 24, and Jewel was fun to watch in Firefly. I just don't care for their SGA characters.

The Lady Blue
October 26th, 2011, 06:49 AM
Yeah, if it hadn't been hyped so much as a Teyla ep I may not have been so annoyed at the shift in focus. It's a real shame, because there's some dark stuff going on with Teyla, yet the emphasis is on Keller. The fact that Teyla is killing real people barely rates a mention. While eventually I grew to tolerate Keller, even like her in a couple of episodes, during s5, episodes like this did the character no favours.

She fought in self defense. It was understandable to me. I'd have to watch the episode again to know if she killed anyone. I remember seeing her fighting with sticks, but she might have used a knife at one point.
.




They could have even used Carter in that ep, under the guise of meeting the Athosians for the first time. It might've been a valuable insight for Carter into Teyla's character and history. The flashback side of things hadn't occured to me, but that would've been an excellent way to go.

I forgot about Carter. That could have worked so long as the balance in focus was there. Carter's got science skills and field training and good combat experience. That might have been nice.

Lythisrose
October 26th, 2011, 08:35 AM
I certainly wanted the focus to be on Teyla in this ep. The idea of Radek being the one to accompany her sounds good. The writers wouldn't have tried to make us feel so sorry for him as they did with Jennifer. And as much as I want to see John in every episode, they wouldn't have been able to highlight Teyla's skills and knowledge as much with him or Ronon.

gateraid
October 26th, 2011, 02:09 PM
I guess Sheppard could have worked if the writers did a good job of balancing the focus. I don't know about the doctors though. Radek might have been interesting and he definitely would have been there to support Teyla. Beckett would have been better than Keller if they were going to keep the same premise for visiting the village. I could go for Weir if the story happened inside of the city of Atlantis. As a diplomat she doesn't have much field training, and by this time in the series she was already gone. McKay might have worked, but I doubt it. It wouldn't have been as bad as Keller, but it would have been close.

It's debatable how well any of the other characters would have worked in this ep, but I do think it would have put the focus back onto Teyla, instead of the dual purpose of the aired episode - discover what happened to the athosians, and discover more about the CoM.



I guess I just really wanted an episode that told me more about Teyla as a person and about her people as she tried to find them. This could have been a very richly done two part episode about the quest to find her people and her journey in life as a leader, a woman, and a warrior. If they were going to go with Kannan they could have briefly introduced him, but I didn't care much for what I saw of the character. Just like Jewel, the actor is good. I think I saw him when he either guest starred on Fringe or 24, and Jewel was fun to watch in Firefly. I just don't care for their SGA characters.

The two parter thing is interesting *whistles innocently about deleting Travellers from the lineup* I think if they were to put Kanaan in the ep, it would work better if they sprinkled in a few flashback scenes of Teyla in the village with Kanaan and the other Athosians with what was happening in the present.

Keller would have worked better if they'd written it more as her seeking guidance from Teyla, rather than (what came across as) completely freaking out.



She fought in self defense. It was understandable to me. I'd have to watch the episode again to know if she killed anyone. I remember seeing her fighting with sticks, but she might have used a knife at one point.
.
I'm not saying it wasn't justifiable, but it was a bit of a contrast for one of the main characters, when generally we only see them killing Wraith.



I forgot about Carter. That could have worked so long as the balance in focus was there. Carter's got science skills and field training and good combat experience. That might have been nice.

Possibly. I don't know whether they considered it, but it would've been a great way to introduce Carter, without overshadowing Teyla.


I certainly wanted the focus to be on Teyla in this ep. The idea of Radek being the one to accompany her sounds good. The writers wouldn't have tried to make us feel so sorry for him as they did with Jennifer. And as much as I want to see John in every episode, they wouldn't have been able to highlight Teyla's skills and knowledge as much with him or Ronon.

It may have had a darker feel with Ronon in it too, IDK. It was some time beforehand, but in Trinity, they both spoke of the differences between them and the expedition. It'd have been interesting to put that to the test.

As it was, while I can't fault the idea itself (introduce Keller, and throw her in the deep end in the process), the execution detracted from what was meant to be the real focus of the episode - what happened to the Athosians.

The Lady Blue
October 26th, 2011, 04:51 PM
I certainly wanted the focus to be on Teyla in this ep. The idea of Radek being the one to accompany her sounds good. The writers wouldn't have tried to make us feel so sorry for him as they did with Jennifer. And as much as I want to see John in every episode, they wouldn't have been able to highlight Teyla's skills and knowledge as much with him or Ronon.

I still think Ronon could have worked because he seemed to already look up to her in a way, and they'd gone out together a couple of times without it overshadowing Teyla. I can understand your hesitation though. The writers might have been tempted to write 'Ronon action episode' and poor Teyla and her people would have been left behind in that case. I guess the same goes for Sheppard.



It's debatable how well any of the other characters would have worked in this ep, but I do think it would have put the focus back onto Teyla, instead of the dual purpose of the aired episode - discover what happened to the athosians, and discover more about the CoM.

Oh it is likely that no matter who gets paired with whom that there's going to be somebody that doesn't like it, so I'm more inclined to just go with whomever would have allowed the most for what it seemed to me the main story of the episode was supposed to be about: Teyla and her people.



The two parter thing is interesting *whistles innocently about deleting Travellers from the lineup* I think if they were to put Kanaan in the ep, it would work better if they sprinkled in a few flashback scenes of Teyla in the village with Kanaan and the other Athosians with what was happening in the present.

Keller would have worked better if they'd written it more as her seeking guidance from Teyla, rather than (what came across as) completely freaking out.

I don't know if flashbacks would have been necessary. It all depends on the story being told. Historically speaking, I'm more interested in understanding the history of her people in terms of legacy as opposed to simple village scenes, but that's only me.

With Keller, I think they tried the advice route with Teyla showing her how to eat in the forest and keep her strength up and things like that, but it still didn't work to me. For what reason I don't know, they made Keller almost as helpless as possible in Missing, and then they made that and her fear the focus of the episode imo. Did she really have to sprain her ankle?


.

I'm not saying it wasn't justifiable, but it was a bit of a contrast for one of the main characters, when generally we only see them killing Wraith.

This is where I think a two part episode really would have helped. Teyla mentions that the Bola Kai (sp?) were basically bad people, but that's all we get. They are introduced in Missing and then we never hear about or see them again. That's too bad. I saw potential there. *shrugs*



Possibly. I don't know whether they considered it, but it would've been a great way to introduce Carter, without overshadowing Teyla.

With the right balance I think it could have worked. She would have been able to really help Teyla in combat, and then there could have been a good trade off of equals. I'm sure Carter read mission reports, but that's nothing like being in the field and she knows that. She could have learned about this 'new' galaxy from someone who probably knew the most about it, and Teyla might have learned a couple of things from her too.



It may have had a darker feel with Ronon in it too, IDK. It was some time beforehand, but in Trinity, they both spoke of the differences between them and the expedition. It'd have been interesting to put that to the test.

I agree.



As it was, while I can't fault the idea itself (introduce Keller, and throw her in the deep end in the process), the execution detracted from what was meant to be the real focus of the episode - what happened to the Athosians.

I can, because that wasn't what the idea was advertised as for this episode. I am perfectly fine with Keller getting an episode where she is introduced as a 'fish out of water'. It just didn't need to be this one. The idea for this one was supposed to be Teyla and her people, or so I thought. :(

Lythisrose
October 26th, 2011, 04:56 PM
Well, when the time came for submitting a performance to one of those awards programs, TPTB submitted Jewel's work in this episode, not Rachel's. So you can see where their focus was.

The Lady Blue
October 26th, 2011, 05:00 PM
Well, when the time came for submitting a performance to one of those awards programs, TPTB submitted Jewel's work in this episode, not Rachel's. So you can see where their focus was.

Greened.

jelgate
October 26th, 2011, 05:08 PM
Well, when the time came for submitting a performance to one of those awards programs, TPTB submitted Jewel's work in this episode, not Rachel's. So you can see where their focus was.I'm sure Rachel being on maternity leave had nothing to do with it:P

gateraid
October 26th, 2011, 08:15 PM
Well, when the time came for submitting a performance to one of those awards programs, TPTB submitted Jewel's work in this episode, not Rachel's. So you can see where their focus was.

Ouch. That pretty much says it all. Sometimes I wish I just watched the show and that was all I knew.


I'm sure Rachel being on maternity leave had nothing to do with it:P

True, too. But I guess it's a real indication of what they thought worked (Keller) and what didn't (Teyla). I'd have switched the names, but I must be in the minority :o

jelgate
October 26th, 2011, 08:32 PM
Ouch. That pretty much says it all. Sometimes I wish I just watched the show and that was all I knew.



True, too. But I guess it's a real indication of what they thought worked (Keller) and what didn't (Teyla). I'd have switched the names, but I must be in the minority :oTo be fair Jewel's name is more known then Rachel and the award shows are rarely about quality and more who you know

gateraid
October 27th, 2011, 12:18 AM
To be fair Jewel's name is more known then Rachel and the award shows are rarely about quality and more who you know

And again, to be fair, Rachel's stuff was more action oriented, while Jewel had more material to work with. Don't look at me like that, she had a bigger range of emotions to convey. Like you say, quality is subjective :p

Here's something that was prepared earlier, by the wonderful Falcon Horus, it's their screentime in this ep

RL/TE
Time = 25m34s – 1534s

JS/JK
Time = 26m12s – 1572s

I don't have the ones for wordcount for that ep, but I suspect Keller's/Jewel's would be considerably higher than Teyla's/Rachel's. It's hard not to get the impression that Keller overshadowed Teyla in that ep, which may be why a lot of people (at least on GW) thought she had a negative effect on that ep. I thought her presence in that ep was a bad idea, and a bad introduction to the character. I didn't mind her in s5, but it was in spite of this ep (and DG), not because of it

jelgate
October 27th, 2011, 05:35 AM
That is not a big difference in time and just confirms my belief it was about both of them. I don't really care about the word count difference. Quality not quanity

gateraid
October 27th, 2011, 10:25 AM
That is not a big difference in time and just confirms my belief it was about both of them. I don't really care about the word count difference. Quality not quanity

True. I was actually surprised that they came out so close re time. It's been a while since I watched that ep, but it's the Keller scenes that I remember.

The Lady Blue
October 27th, 2011, 11:08 PM
Ouch. That pretty much says it all. Sometimes I wish I just watched the show and that was all I knew.



True, too. But I guess it's a real indication of what they thought worked (Keller) and what didn't (Teyla). I'd have switched the names, but I must be in the minority :o

You're not in the minority as an audience member, but you maybe would be if you were a producer for the show. They always seemed a little 'disconnected' from what really worked for the audience and what they just personally liked for themselves. In this case, I agree with jelgate: It was more about who they liked best and not necessarily who performed best.


And again, to be fair, Rachel's stuff was more action oriented, while Jewel had more material to work with. Don't look at me like that, she had a bigger range of emotions to convey. Like you say, quality is subjective :p

Not really. The only real emotion Keller conveyed was fear. And here's something else: For the bridge scene, uRachel actually was really afraid, and Jewel was not. Just my own personal opinion, but I think it's harder to fake being well poised and calm when you really are scared than it is to fake fear when you're alright. Rachel did a great job because I couldn't tell.




Here's something that was prepared earlier, by the wonderful Falcon Horus, it's their screentime in this ep

RL/TE
Time = 25m34s – 1534s

JS/JK
Time = 26m12s – 1572s

I don't have the ones for wordcount for that ep, but I suspect Keller's/Jewel's would be considerably higher than Teyla's/Rachel's. It's hard not to get the impression that Keller overshadowed Teyla in that ep, which may be why a lot of people (at least on GW) thought she had a negative effect on that ep. I thought her presence in that ep was a bad idea, and a bad introduction to the character. I didn't mind her in s5, but it was in spite of this ep (and DG), not because of it

This is proof that Keller got most of the focus. :S

I actually didn't mind Keller so much in Doppelganger. I did mind her in about most of season 5 though. *shrugs* I agree that this was the wrong episode for introducing the character, and the way it was done didn't help either.


... Quality not quanity

Unfortunately, quality is not what I think I got out of this episode. That's too bad because I remember looking forward to finally seeing 'Teyla's BIG episode.' :(

gateraid
October 28th, 2011, 02:10 AM
You're not in the minority as an audience member, but you maybe would be if you were a producer for the show. They always seemed a little 'disconnected' from what really worked for the audience and what they just personally liked for themselves. In this case, I agree with jelgate: It was more about who they liked best and not necessarily who performed best.

Hard to say re what the regular audience member is feeling. There's a strong anti-Keller sentiment on GW, but I don't really know how she was received in the general public. Let's face it, GW isnt exactly a representative sample (for one thing, not everyone posts on the pro/anti threads :o ). Playing Devil's Advocate, I can (kinda) see where they were coming from with the you-will-like-keller mantra. I hated Carson initially (wtf was up with that accent??), but he grew on me. They probably thought that would happen with Keller. IMO, they were three years too late with the character. It was unbelievable to me that she would react the way she did to everything in her first year when she would've had a fair idea what she was getting herself into.




Not really. The only real emotion Keller conveyed was fear. And here's something else: For the bridge scene, uRachel actually was really afraid, and Jewel was not. Just my own personal opinion, but I think it's harder to fake being well poised and calm when you really are scared than it is to fake fear when you're alright. Rachel did a great job because I couldn't tell.

Was Rachel actually on the bridge, or a double? I seem to recall they used a double and just used close-ups, but I could be wrong about that. Seriously, I could be a mile off with that :o



This is proof that Keller got most of the focus. :S

I actually didn't mind Keller so much in Doppelganger. I did mind her in about most of season 5 though. *shrugs* I agree that this was the wrong episode for introducing the character, and the way it was done didn't help either.


While I'm not a I-hate-Keller-coz-she-replaced-Carson person, I thinked they went wrong by having her focus ep not being about her field of expertise. Carson's focus ep was Poisoning the Well, Keller's was Missing. And it was meant to be Teyla's ep :S


Unfortunately, quality is not what I think I got out of this episode. That's too bad because I remember looking forward to finally seeing 'Teyla's BIG episode.' :(

But...but....it was a big ep for Teyla. She....ahhhh....oh wait, that's right, her people were kidnapped. I almost forgot :S

The Lady Blue
October 29th, 2011, 03:57 AM
Hard to say re what the regular audience member is feeling. There's a strong anti-Keller sentiment on GW, but I don't really know how she was received in the general public. Let's face it, GW isnt exactly a representative sample (for one thing, not everyone posts on the pro/anti threads :o ). Playing Devil's Advocate, I can (kinda) see where they were coming from with the you-will-like-keller mantra. I hated Carson initially (wtf was up with that accent??), but he grew on me. They probably thought that would happen with Keller. IMO, they were three years too late with the character. It was unbelievable to me that she would react the way she did to everything in her first year when she would've had a fair idea what she was getting herself into.


I hear what you're sayin', but why wouldn't gateworld be a representative sample of the Target audience for shows like this one? I can understand why gateworld isn't representative of the average television viewer, but I don't get why it couldn't be representative of the average sci-fi or at least stargate television fan. :confused: I know not everyone posts on the pro/anti threads, but reading around different places I've kind of gotten a general feel of how the character seemed to be taken. These are also boards where only some people post and not everyone that watches the show, but that, who you know, and conventions are mainly what you've got to gauge feedback unless you're the network or studio. There's also no way to say that people who post online are more likely or less likely to have taken to the character, so I think it's possible that the samples we've gotten are representative. It's also possible that they're not.

Besides, you were saying that you 'must' be in the minority as to what you thought worked and what you didn't. There's no way to know that for sure, but I can surely tell you that you're not alone ;)


I can understand why they thought people would take to the character more than they did, especially with Jewel in the role, but I don't understand why they thought people would like her more specifically because of this episode. I remember one of them saying something like 'wait until Missing, that's when you'll love Keller'. I was all prepared for that to be the case. Too bad it wasn't.

Carson was okay to me when he was first introduced, but Poisoning The Well made me love him. Perhaps that's what they were shooting for with Keller here, but it would have been better to me to have given her her own episode instead of giving her someone else's. :S




Was Rachel actually on the bridge, or a double? I seem to recall they used a double and just used close-ups, but I could be wrong about that. Seriously, I could be a mile off with that :o

Oh gosh, I read somewhere that both of them were actually on the bridge. It's possible that it was in the commentary, but I'm almost 100% sure I read it. Mm, maybe the magazine? I can search around for it if you like.



While I'm not a I-hate-Keller-coz-she-replaced-Carson person, I thinked they went wrong by having her focus ep not being about her field of expertise. Carson's focus ep was Poisoning the Well, Keller's was Missing. And it was meant to be Teyla's ep :S

They might have strayed away from that because people were already complaining that she was too young to be believable as CMO.

Another thing that helped Carson was that his episode was actually his, and it was advertised that way. Could you imagine what you might have thought if Poisoning The Well was advertised as 'Ford's BIG episode'? :eek: There might have been a few raised eyebrows at that.



But...but....it was a big ep for Teyla. She....ahhhh....oh wait, that's right, her people were kidnapped. I almost forgot :S

Yeah... :S :(

gateraid
October 29th, 2011, 04:47 AM
I hear what you're sayin', but why wouldn't gateworld be a representative sample of the Target audience for shows like this one? I can understand why gateworld isn't representative of the average television viewer, but I don't get why it couldn't be representative of the average sci-fi or at least stargate television fan. :confused: I know not everyone posts on the pro/anti threads, but reading around different places I've kind of gotten a general feel of how the character seemed to be taken. These are also boards where only some people post and not everyone that watches the show, but that, who you know, and conventions are mainly what you've got to gauge feedback unless you're the network or studio. There's also no way to say that people who post online are more likely or less likely to have taken to the character, so I think it's possible that the samples we've gotten are representative. It's also possible that they're not.

Besides, you were saying that you 'must' be in the minority as to what you thought worked and what you didn't. There's no way to know that for sure, but I can surely tell you that you're not alone ;)

Oh, trust me, when I first joined GW I did my fair share of anti-Keller posts. Still do on occassion, although I've reached a zen-like state now (by comparison ;)). I think I'm one of the few that found Brainstorm hilarious, although it wasn't an episode of SGA by any stretch of the imagination, but I digress.

I take your point about 'the average poster' and what not, but the reason I brought it up is that there are a lot of people who don't post in the pro-anti threads, or even the gen threads. While the Keller hatred/love might be strong, it's generally voiced by the same people. Amanda Tapping asked Martin Wood in one of the commentaries about the character and McKeller, and he said the fans loved the whole situation. I don't know whether he was just saying that in a cheerleading capacity, or whether he was basing that on audience research that they'd done (I'd be surprised if they didn't do at least some sort of audience testing), or if there was another reason. My impression is that the gen fans didn't feel particularly strongly either way - they didn't hate her, but they didn't love her either - but I could be way off with that. My own opinion is that they endulged their obsession with the character to the detriment of the other characters :(



I can understand why they thought people would take to the character more than they did, especially with Jewel in the role, but I don't understand why they thought people would like her more specifically because of this episode. I remember one of them saying something like 'wait until Missing, that's when you'll love Keller'. I was all prepared for that to be the case. Too bad it wasn't.

I never understood the criticism that they (the writers) were writing Keller like Kaylee from Firefly until I actually watched Firefly. I think that's a little harsh, but certainly they wrote some scenes where they knew she would have to react the same way. Kaylee worked for Firefly, but she didn't for Atlantis



Carson was okay to me when he was first introduced, but Poisoning The Well made me love him. Perhaps that's what they were shooting for with Keller here, but it would have been better to me to have given her her own episode instead of giving her someone else's. :S

With Carson, it seemed to me that they wrote him as a Doctor first, then expanded his material and character development around that. With Keller, at times it seemed the opposite was true.



Oh gosh, I read somewhere that both of them were actually on the bridge. It's possible that it was in the commentary, but I'm almost 100% sure I read it. Mm, maybe the magazine? I can search around for it if you like.


I wouldn't bother. If you've heard that, it's most likely true.



They might have strayed away from that because people were already complaining that she was too young to be believable as CMO.

Marine Captain Jennifer Keller might have been slightly more believable *shrugs*


Another thing that helped Carson was that his episode was actually his, and it was advertised that way. Could you imagine what you might have thought if Poisoning The Well was advertised as 'Ford's BIG episode'? :eek: There might have been a few raised eyebrows at that.

Most notably at Ford getting an episode :p

The Lady Blue
October 29th, 2011, 05:54 AM
Oh, trust me, when I first joined GW I did my fair share of anti-Keller posts. Still do on occassion, although I've reached a zen-like state now (by comparison ;)). I think I'm one of the few that found Brainstorm hilarious, although it wasn't an episode of SGA by any stretch of the imagination, but I digress.

I take your point about 'the average poster' and what not, but the reason I brought it up is that there are a lot of people who don't post in the pro-anti threads, or even the gen threads. While the Keller hatred/love might be strong, it's generally voiced by the same people. Amanda Tapping asked Martin Wood in one of the commentaries about the character and McKeller, and he said the fans loved the whole situation. I don't know whether he was just saying that in a cheerleading capacity, or whether he was basing that on audience research that they'd done (I'd be surprised if they didn't do at least some sort of audience testing), or if there was another reason. My impression is that the gen fans didn't feel particularly strongly either way - they didn't hate her, but they didn't love her either - but I could be way off with that. My own opinion is that they endulged their obsession with the character to the detriment of the other characters :(

I'm at peace with what I did and didn't like. Still feel the same way though. I honestly don't know if they did do audience testing. My impression was that they took a likable actress from a sci-fi hit of cult-like popularity and figured it would just work. I could be wrong though. They didn't seem to do much testing when they got rid of Carson though. They said they were quite surprised with the massive fan response they got. I have to say I agree with 'your own opinion'. Teyla hadn't gotten to lead an episode in more than two years (since I think The Gift). She finally gets this one only for me to find out that um, no, she didn't.



I never understood the criticism that they (the writers) were writing Keller like Kaylee from Firefly until I actually watched Firefly. I think that's a little harsh, but certainly they wrote some scenes where they knew she would have to react the same way. Kaylee worked for Firefly, but she didn't for Atlantis

Mm, I'm exercising my right to remain silent mostly here. But I think you're on to something. I didn't say anything when you said you disliked Travelers because my main reason for not liking it was that it seemed kind of like a Firefly ripoff and I did jot want to get into comparisons. I especially thought that when I saw the engine room girl in season 5. I don't think sga needed injections of other shows. It just needed to be itself.



With Carson, it seemed to me that they wrote him as a Doctor first, then expanded his material and character development around that. With Keller, at times it seemed the opposite was true.

I think so too. Maybe it's because they liked her so much, maybe not.



I wouldn't bother. If you've heard that, it's most likely true.

Ok.



Marine Captain Jennifer Keller might have been slightly more believable *shrugs*

You never know. Maybe if Extinction were made... :)

Jennifer: "No. That's Captain Doctor to you." :P



Most notably at Ford getting an episode :p

You've got me there, especially if he's normal. :P

Falcon Horus
October 29th, 2011, 02:52 PM
Well, when the time came for submitting a performance to one of those awards programs, TPTB submitted Jewel's work in this episode, not Rachel's. So you can see where their focus was.

Like I said ... supposed to be about Teyla...


I don't have the ones for wordcount for that ep, but I suspect Keller's/Jewel's would be considerably higher than Teyla's/Rachel's.

I can't help you with this as I'm on my notebook in France, and my numbers are at home. I shall try to remember to take a look at it when I'm back monday. In the meantime, I'm going to enjoy my convention some more... :D

s09119
October 29th, 2011, 03:14 PM
Like I said ... supposed to be about Teyla...

That was my big problem with the episode when it aired. The plot was pure Teyla/Athosians... and yet somehow it turned into a Keller-athon of development with Teyla just kind of tagging along.

gateraid
October 29th, 2011, 04:45 PM
I'm at peace with what I did and didn't like. Still feel the same way though. I honestly don't know if they did do audience testing. My impression was that they took a likable actress from a sci-fi hit of cult-like popularity and figured it would just work. I could be wrong though. They didn't seem to do much testing when they got rid of Carson though. They said they were quite surprised with the massive fan response they got. I have to say I agree with 'your own opinion'. Teyla hadn't gotten to lead an episode in more than two years (since I think The Gift). She finally gets this one only for me to find out that um, no, she didn't.

My impression too, sadly. It probably would have been more believable had she been a Marine (not a doctor) on someone's team, or some other position which was more age appropriate.

As for The Gift, while everyone else was in that episode, they were still mostly focused on her. Her character drove the whole episode. Somehow they forgot that when writing this ep :(



Mm, I'm exercising my right to remain silent mostly here. But I think you're on to something. I didn't say anything when you said you disliked Travelers because my main reason for not liking it was that it seemed kind of like a Firefly ripoff and I did jot want to get into comparisons. I especially thought that when I saw the engine room girl in season 5. I don't think sga needed injections of other shows. It just needed to be itself.

It hadn't occured to me that Travelers was a rip off of Firefly :o But yeah, that engine girl was definitely a nod to Kaylee.



You never know. Maybe if Extinction were made... :)

Jennifer: "No. That's Captain Doctor to you." :P

:lol:



You've got me there, especially if he's normal. :P

Then again, Ronon's focus eps were essentially the same eps, just with more stuff added into them.


Like I said ... supposed to be about Teyla...

Yes. T - E - L - Y - A.



I can't help you with this as I'm on my notebook in France, and my numbers are at home. I shall try to remember to take a look at it when I'm back monday. In the meantime, I'm going to enjoy my convention some more... :D

I'd be extremely surprised if Keller didn't have a lot more dialogue. Especially if you count all the shrieks :p


That was my big problem with the episode when it aired. The plot was pure Teyla/Athosians... and yet somehow it turned into a Keller-athon of development with Teyla just kind of tagging along.

I wonder if they'd promo'd it differently (ie as a Teyla and Keller ep) if we'd still be having this discussion.

Falcon Horus
October 31st, 2011, 04:34 PM
Home again so I have access to my research. Wordcount for both Teyl/Rachel and Keller/Jewel goes as follow:

Total wordcount for the episode was 3444 words.

Rachel/Teyla
Words = 1317

Jewel/Keller
Words = 1320

Screentime:

Total time of the episode was 42m54s.

Rachel/Teyla
Time = 25m34s – 1534s

Jewel/Keller
Time = 26m12s – 1572s

So... yeah... what can I say? :p

jelgate
October 31st, 2011, 04:52 PM
Home again so I have access to my research. Wordcount for both Teyl/Rachel and Keller/Jewel goes as follow:

Total wordcount for the episode was 3444 words.

Rachel/Teyla
Words = 1317

Jewel/Keller
Words = 1320

Screentime:

Total time of the episode was 42m54s.

Rachel/Teyla
Time = 25m34s – 1534s

Jewel/Keller
Time = 26m12s – 1572s

So... yeah... what can I say? :p

It was pretty much equal:P

gateraid
November 1st, 2011, 10:53 AM
Home again so I have access to my research. Wordcount for both Teyl/Rachel and Keller/Jewel goes as follow:

Total wordcount for the episode was 3444 words.

Rachel/Teyla
Words = 1317

Jewel/Keller
Words = 1320

Screentime:

Total time of the episode was 42m54s.

Rachel/Teyla
Time = 25m34s – 1534s

Jewel/Keller
Time = 26m12s – 1572s

So... yeah... what can I say? :p

Thank you for that :D That is quite surprising. I would have thought Keller/Jewel would be rocketing ahead in both, but the data tells a different story. I guess when you look at it like that, it's probably not too different to what any other actor/character would have gotten in that episode (had they been in her place). So I guess she wasn't really stealing the episode then, just sharing.


It was pretty much equal:P

Quality is subjective :p

Falcon Horus
November 1st, 2011, 11:22 AM
So I guess she wasn't really stealing the episode then, just sharing.

Too bad it was supposed to be Teyla's big episode, which in on itself is seriously shameful. A character shouldn't be having a "big" episode, especially not one of the so called main characters, and then never to be heard of again, pushed to the sideline in favor of other and better.

The Lady Blue
November 1st, 2011, 02:49 PM
Home again so I have access to my research. Wordcount for both Teyl/Rachel and Keller/Jewel goes as follow:

Total wordcount for the episode was 3444 words.

Rachel/Teyla
Words = 1317

Jewel/Keller
Words = 1320

Screentime:

Total time of the episode was 42m54s.

Rachel/Teyla
Time = 25m34s – 1534s

Jewel/Keller
Time = 26m12s – 1572s

So... yeah... what can I say? :p


Too bad it was supposed to be Teyla's big episode, which in on itself is seriously shameful. A character shouldn't be having a "big" episode, especially not one of the so called main characters, and then never to be heard of again, pushed to the sideline in favor of other and better.

I agree. In both cases (in terms of screentime and lines), Keller got more than Teyla and the episode was supposed to be about Teyla.

I disagree that it happens the other way around because we absolutely never see Teyla get to take over or 'share' anyone else's 'BIG' episodes. It certainly never happened with any of Keller's.

It's just wrong and sad. There was so much opportunity to do so much with such a great character as Teyla was and we practically got nothing. I don't understand it. :confused:

hedwig
November 1st, 2011, 06:30 PM
Too bad it was supposed to be Teyla's big episode, which in on itself is seriously shameful. A character shouldn't be having a "big" episode, especially not one of the so called main characters, and then never to be heard of again, pushed to the sideline in favor of other and better.

I wouldn't go so far as to say "better". :) More like "in favor of another" than anything else.

gateraid
November 2nd, 2011, 02:21 AM
Too bad it was supposed to be Teyla's big episode, which in on itself is seriously shameful. A character shouldn't be having a "big" episode, especially not one of the so called main characters, and then never to be heard of again, pushed to the sideline in favor of other and better.

I was thinking about Teyla earlier (get your mind out of the gutter) and her storyline. There are a number of ways they could have included her more, but for some reason they didn't. The times when she's shone for me are when she is arguing something against the expedition, based on her lifetime in the PG. They never made enough use of that side of things. The one time that they pulled out all the stops to make an Athosian centred ep in season four, the impression was that it was more about another character. Not only is that a fail, it's a slap in the face to Teyla.


I agree. In both cases (in terms of screentime and lines), Keller got more than Teyla and the episode was supposed to be about Teyla.

I disagree that it happens the other way around because we absolutely never see Teyla get to take over or 'share' anyone else's 'BIG' episodes. It certainly never happened with any of Keller's.

It's just wrong and sad. There was so much opportunity to do so much with such a great character as Teyla was and we practically got nothing. I don't understand it. :confused:

I'm okay with her not getting a 'BIG' episode. I'd rather have seen her get more input into the regular episodes. While I wouldn't have said her role in Misbegotten was massive, her scene with Michael is one of the standouts of the whole show for me.

Arica15
November 2nd, 2011, 11:21 AM
I think the problem is not that Teyla's character was actually pushed to the side in Missing, she wasn't, there is a heck of a lot of really good stuff from Teyla in that episode. I think we don't remember how much, or how good it was because we're too busy thinking about how bad Keller was.

I'll freely admit I was very angry at them getting rid of Carson, and I thought then and still think now that they decided to axe Beckett to bring in Keller. But that didn't mean I was going to hate Keller, I had similar feelings about the Weir situation, but I ended up really liking Carter and Woolsey.

For the first few Keller episodes I was pretty indifferent to Keller, I wasn't overly impressed but thought the character might improve over time...then came missing. Like everyone else I was excited about this episode because finally Teyla got a plot line but I was horrified by how the Keller character was written. Whiny, self pitying, self important and immature are some of the nicer things I can say.

Unfortunately the Keller of Missing was a pretty accurate blue print for the rest of her episodes and to me she remains the worst regular character in any of the Stargate shows.

Killdeer
November 2nd, 2011, 04:05 PM
I think the problem is not that Teyla's character was actually pushed to the side in Missing, she wasn't, there is a heck of a lot of really good stuff from Teyla in that episode. I think we don't remember how much, or how good it was because we're too busy thinking about how bad Keller was.

I don't know that I agree with that, personally. Screen time and word count doesn't tell the whole story, and to me, Teyla is clearly the secondary character throughout the episode when she should have been the focus character. Nearly the entire episode is focused on Keller's POV, not Teyla's, and it should have been the other way around.


I'll freely admit I was very angry at them getting rid of Carson, and I thought then and still think now that they decided to axe Beckett to bring in Keller. But that didn't mean I was going to hate Keller, I had similar feelings about the Weir situation, but I ended up really liking Carter and Woolsey.

For the first few Keller episodes I was pretty indifferent to Keller, I wasn't overly impressed but thought the character might improve over time...then came missing. Like everyone else I was excited about this episode because finally Teyla got a plot line but I was horrified by how the Keller character was written. Whiny, self pitying, self important and immature are some of the nicer things I can say.

Unfortunately the Keller of Missing was a pretty accurate blue print for the rest of her episodes and to me she remains the worst regular character in any of the Stargate shows.

I wasn't all that attached to Carson, so losing him really didn't bother me that much (although I'll admit the method of writing him out was stupid). But I was not particularly a fan of Jewel Staite on Firefly and so was not overjoyed when I heard she was cast (part of that being I felt like she was way too young for the role of Head of Medical). In retrospect, however, I was mostly fine with her when they weren't writing her as Stargate!Kaylee. Kaylee, while not my favorite character, fit in the Firefly universe. She didn't fit in Stargate. I'm still ok with Keller in episodes like Doppelganger and Tracker (I didn't like Tracker, but it was because of the Rodney/Ronon stupidity, not because of Keller). Episodes like Missing, Quarantine, Identity....yeah, not so much. :(

I still think though that I wouldn't have been nearly as annoyed with Keller in Missing as I was if I had gone into it expecting it to be a Keller-focused episode. But going in expecting it to be totally focused on Teyla and the loss of the Athosians (and the revelation of Kanaan), and instead getting so much Keller......that was really really annoying. It was like "I don't care!!! Let's focus on the story I do care about!!!" But no. :(

gateraid
November 3rd, 2011, 01:51 AM
I admit to being totally surprised by the wordcount and screentime stats, because the bits that I remember from Missing are Keller pieces. That's neither here nor there in the grand scheme of things - there are Teyla bits in other eps that stand out for me, and the same for other characters - but as you've both (Killdeer and Arica15) alluded to, it's the impression of it being a Keller-centric episode that is the real problem. It should have been a Teyla-centric episode. Even at 50:50 wordcount and screentime, it still doesn't play out as a Teyla focused ep.

I don't know what the 'real' aim of this episode was. I suspect that there was more than one. They had to establish the Athosian subplot and how that affected Teyla, then they had to showcase their new Chief of Medicine. It's a pity they tried to do these things within the same episode.

bluealien
November 3rd, 2011, 03:08 AM
I think the problem is not that Teyla's character was actually pushed to the side in Missing, she wasn't, there is a heck of a lot of really good stuff from Teyla in that episode. I think we don't remember how much, or how good it was because we're too busy thinking about how bad Keller was.

Totally agree with this. I don't think Teyla's screentime would be such an issue if she had been paired with Rodney/John or Ronon. I'm pretty sure that each of them, well maybe not Ronon would have had more focus and more screentime than Teyla and no one would have had a problem with it. Most of the comments seem to be about how BAD Keller was and everything else seems to fade into the background.



I'll freely admit I was very angry at them getting rid of Carson, and I thought then and still think now that they decided to axe Beckett to bring in Keller. But that didn't mean I was going to hate Keller, I had similar feelings about the Weir situation, but I ended up really liking Carter and Woolsey.

Again I agree. I missed Carson but I was willing to give Keller a chance. In many cases the new character can be just as good as the replaced one as in the case of Carter and Woolsey, but Keller was a let down from the start. Her introduction was fairly medicore and I hoped she would improve, but she went from medicore, to bad to downright terrible, and Missing was the start of this terrible transition.


For the first few Keller episodes I was pretty indifferent to Keller, I wasn't overly impressed but thought the character might improve over time...then came missing. Like everyone else I was excited about this episode because finally Teyla got a plot line but I was horrified by how the Keller character was written. Whiny, self pitying, self important and immature are some of the nicer things I can say.

Yup that about covers it. But amongst all this whiny self pitying immature moments we still had some awesome moments from Teyla and she is the one that stood out for me in this episode. Keller is just remembered more because no one expected her to be that bad.

Killdeer
November 3rd, 2011, 05:05 AM
You're probably right that it would have been better received if it had been someone else with Teyla instead of Keller. I would probably have enjoyed it more myself, depending on how it was handled. But for me personally, if John or Ronon or Rodney had been shoved to the front of what I was expecting to be a Teyla-centric episode, I still would have been annoyed. Maybe not AS annoyed (or maybe more so, depending on how annoying they made Rodney to be - and I say that as a Rodney fan), but personally my #1 gripe with this episode has always been that the writers apparently didn't consider Teyla or the beginning of this story arc interesting enough to carry the episode. That irritation is of course exacerbated by Keller getting on my nerves, and how Keller was written here IS a problem - I'm not saying it's not. I'm just saying that, to me, it isn't the MAIN problem.


but as you've both (Killdeer and Arica15) alluded to, it's the impression of it being a Keller-centric episode that is the real problem. It should have been a Teyla-centric episode. Even at 50:50 wordcount and screentime, it still doesn't play out as a Teyla focused ep.

I agree.


I don't know what the 'real' aim of this episode was. I suspect that there was more than one. They had to establish the Athosian subplot and how that affected Teyla, then they had to showcase their new Chief of Medicine. It's a pity they tried to do these things within the same episode.

Very true.

And, moving away for a moment from the Teyla issue, it is telling to me how they chose to showcase their new Chief of Medicine. As others have pointed out, Carson's spotlight episode in S1 focused on his skill and compassion. This episode focuses on Keller's....unfitness for the position? Really? Is that what you really want to highlight in your new character? :rolleyes:

This brings up all sorts of thoughts about the differences in how the writers chose to portray male and female characters, but (fortunately ;)) I'm out of time.

gateraid
November 3rd, 2011, 10:12 PM
Totally agree with this. I don't think Teyla's screentime would be such an issue if she had been paired with Rodney/John or Ronon. I'm pretty sure that each of them, well maybe not Ronon would have had more focus and more screentime than Teyla and no one would have had a problem with it. Most of the comments seem to be about how BAD Keller was and everything else seems to fade into the background.

I think it could have played well if she'd been paired with John, Carter, or Ronon (in that order). It would've given Carter a good into to the PG, and if it were Ronon it would've been an opportunity to show that he and Teyla don't always do things the same as the expedition, but with John I think it would've finally been an opportunity to truly appreciate Teyla's 'other' life. I'm not saying he didn't before, but it seemed to me that they all took it for granted that she spent so much time with Atlantis/the team/expedition. This episode might've been a chance for him to see how they played on her conscience, and for a "I'm not on your team right now, don't tell me what to do Colonel" moment. In my head, I see it playing out a bit like the LFP scene, but with bigger repercussions. Probably what would've happened is that TPTW would've written it as Teyla breaking her leg and John having to carry her :rolleyes:



Again I agree. I missed Carson but I was willing to give Keller a chance. In many cases the new character can be just as good as the replaced one as in the case of Carter and Woolsey, but Keller was a let down from the start. Her introduction was fairly medicore and I hoped she would improve, but she went from medicore, to bad to downright terrible, and Missing was the start of this terrible transition.


Yep, they can be just as good. And as I said, I hated Carson initially (although that was mostly based on his annoyingly fake accent), so I tried to ignore her. But this episode did her no favours. It was the first time that I'd watched Stargate and thought "please stop talking" in regards to a main character :S



Yup that about covers it. But amongst all this whiny self pitying immature moments we still had some awesome moments from Teyla and she is the one that stood out for me in this episode. Keller is just remembered more because no one expected her to be that bad.

There's some good Teyla stuff there, I agree. It should have been enough to carry the episode


You're probably right that it would have been better received if it had been someone else with Teyla instead of Keller. I would probably have enjoyed it more myself, depending on how it was handled. But for me personally, if John or Ronon or Rodney had been shoved to the front of what I was expecting to be a Teyla-centric episode, I still would have been annoyed. Maybe not AS annoyed (or maybe more so, depending on how annoying they made Rodney to be - and I say that as a Rodney fan), but personally my #1 gripe with this episode has always been that the writers apparently didn't consider Teyla or the beginning of this story arc interesting enough to carry the episode. That irritation is of course exacerbated by Keller getting on my nerves, and how Keller was written here IS a problem - I'm not saying it's not. I'm just saying that, to me, it isn't the MAIN problem.

Re the bolded bit, it's almost like they forgot there was another side to her life, except when it was convenient. In Vengeance, Teyla mentions she has been helping the Terranans get settled - wtf? I'm not saying it's illogical for her to do so - quite the opposite in fact - but maybe once or twice we could have seen something like that. Perhaps start a show with information gained from the Athosians, or meet Teyla on another planet when she contacts them with some 'interesting' information. Little details like this are the type of thing that only has to happen once or twice a year for viewers to pick up on it, yet they apparently didn't think it was necessary



And, moving away for a moment from the Teyla issue, it is telling to me how they chose to showcase their new Chief of Medicine. As others have pointed out, Carson's spotlight episode in S1 focused on his skill and compassion. This episode focuses on Keller's....unfitness for the position? Really? Is that what you really want to highlight in your new character? :rolleyes:

This brings up all sorts of thoughts about the differences in how the writers chose to portray male and female characters, but (fortunately ;)) I'm out of time.

With other characters, I didn't really think TPTW were sexist, at least not with the main characters. They seemed to have done a reasonable job up until then, although they tended to write them as genderless. There are episodes we could all point to and say "uggggh" in regard to that, but on the whole I think they have done a better job than say CSI or NCIS. But seriously, what other reason could there be for accentuating the worst features of Keller's character in that way? All it did was to make her character seem like a poor choice for the job, which seems unlikely given that they still had the gatebridge and ample opportunity to headhunt someone else.

Killdeer
November 4th, 2011, 11:51 AM
with John I think it would've finally been an opportunity to truly appreciate Teyla's 'other' life. I'm not saying he didn't before, but it seemed to me that they all took it for granted that she spent so much time with Atlantis/the team/expedition. This episode might've been a chance for him to see how they played on her conscience, and for a "I'm not on your team right now, don't tell me what to do Colonel" moment. In my head, I see it playing out a bit like the LFP scene, but with bigger repercussions.
That might have made for an interesting episode, actually. But with these writers it probably wouldn't have gone that way - it more than likely would have been just what you said.


Probably what would've happened is that TPTW would've written it as Teyla breaking her leg and John having to carry her :rolleyes:
I don't doubt it for a moment (see also: Phantoms, The Ark, etc.). Can't have John not being the Big Damn Hero after all. Teyla would have unfortunately been turned into the helpless one. :( It happened too many other times not to know that's how it would have gone.