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View Full Version : Why Colonel Sheppard Should Not Be In Command ~The Pro-Sam Thread~



FallenAngelII
October 28th, 2007, 10:38 PM
To start with, I have no problem with promiscuous people. However, when their promiscuity is endaring themselves, others, they are in denial about it (that they are promiscuous) or whatever, I will use the term "Slut". Secondly, just because this colonel happens to be male doesn't mean he's any less of a slut (no, the word "Player" does not exist in my vocabulary).

Also, it has been pointed out that as Sam is now a full bird Colonel, she's now also the Military Command and he's only the Second in Command. Listen carefully now, because this will probably be the only time I say this: I'm glad Sam came to Atlantis. I really am. Because that at least means John's no longer in command, a position I now see that he's clearly unfit for.

I have never really disliked John. I am, after all, an avid supporter of McShep and I have downright defended him in discussions where his judgement and character have been put in question. And also, look at my avatar. He's not my favourite character on Atlantis, but he's not very far down on the list.

However, I had never felt pure hatred for him 'til 4x05 - Travelers. See my companion thread 4x05 - The Most Immature Episode Ever for more about my views on the episode, or as Katie Griffith would call it: Schmeppisode.

Let's walk down memory lane, shall we:
Exhibit A - Chaya - Despite what avid Sheppard Thunkers will deny, John showed extremely poor judgement in the handling of Chaya. Before anyone jumps in with "But he just wanted to be friendly with the people with the great technology", let's remind ourselves of the fact that John met Teer after GFI (Genii Fiasco I) and the botched Genii Invasion (GFII). Yet, what does he do when he meets her? He trust every single lie she spouts and not only takes her back to Atlantis, but also tells her what consoles do what (so that it'll be easier for the Genii to control the city should she turn out to be a Genii spy)! And on a side note, he goes on a picnic with her (obviously, this was beyond duty and "Being nice to the locals". This was date with a genuine Alien Priestess here), giving her some of their last supplies of certain delicacies (despite them being cut off from Earth). Yes... ha ha, how romantic. And what does he do when Rodney points out that she isn't to be trusted and that she's lying? He tells him to "Shut up".
Exhibit B - Princess Space Slut - In the endless Suckfest that is "The Tower", John had a little encounter with a gal who "wanted his genes". She drops off all of her clothes to prove this (and thank God this isn't on Showtime any more). Yes, the episode does leave what follows that dropping-of-the-clothes up for speculations and the Defenders of Sheppard constantly point out that John said that he turned down the Princess and the Kingdom, but the line could easily be interpreted to mean that John turned down marriage to the Princess, especially as we "in the know" know that the writers originally planned to confirm that John and the Princess really did the naughty. yes, the writers originally thought it to be a good idea to have John Slut It Up with Random Alien Princess because, really, what guy wouldn't, right? Captive on an alien planet with ruling despots who feast on delicacies while the people are starving and oppressed, what to do? Bang the Alien Princess.
Exhibit C - Teer - People like to point out that John had been stuck in there for six months and yaddi yaddi yadda, but, really, right before Teer told John the bone-chilling news that she'd been telepathically stalking him for months and that she'd had visions since since was a child about him being "The One" (To Take Her Virginity) and that he'd lead them to Ascension and Ascend with them (and really, this is where he had to know she was off her rocker because he knows himself the best. Not to mention the fact that the minute she says "You're the one", he not only assumed but also hoped that she meant "The one to take my virginity/The one I will spend the rest of my life with". And he knew he probably wouldn't spend the rest of her life with her because Ascension's just not his thing, but he hoped that's what she meant because then he'd get some Space Tail (after which he'd abandon her and go back to Atlantis). Also, she's clearly delusional because she thinks he's The One who's not only destined to take her virginity but also destined to spend eternity with her. And what does he do? He bangs the hot alien while he's got the chance. It's almost taking advantage of a less intellectual (read: stupid) person.

While I hated those three episodes, they didn't make me hate the character of John Sheppard. Hell, I only considered it to be a small character flaw.

Also, the Protectors of Sheppard will claim that these are just three (now four) little moments in time throughout 3 (now 3 + a few weeks) years of his life. However, why is it that out of every single member on Altantis John is the only guy who's ever gotten to make out with people (under amicable circumstances) or had scenes indicating he got laid?! And not just once but now four times. If you're claiming that John just made four misteps during his time on Atlantis, then you must also be claiming that no one else on Atlantis has had sex in 3+ years of time. It's a special thing when a single character Kirks themselves four times in three+ seasons.

And then the Suckfest that is Travelers happened (again, see my companion thread). I must be Teer, only better (because you know, I'm not delusional) because I knew what would happen the moment Laryn said "Be a shame to have to do too much damage" in reference to John's face.

And happen it did, towards the end, Colonel Space Slut inexplicably (or is that "expectedly" given his track record) decides to start making out with Laryn right after telling a Wraith to run off to his Dart and go home. What the Hell was that Bimbo (and I'm referring to John here) thinking?! Here's the woman who'd tortured you earlier (multiple times), who'd threatened to kill you repteadly and you're currently in a hostile situation. Yet, the moment she ends up pressed up to you and starts batting her eyelashes at you, you decide it's a good idea to start making out?!

And how engrossed wasn't he in the make-out session if his reflexes were too slow to punch her in the face the minute he felt her yank the stunner out of his back pocket?! This was obviously a man who was expecting to get some Intergalactic Tail and therefore ignored all reason and let all his defenses drop.

Not to mention the fact that a Wraith had just been there! He could rush in and bumrush John at any moment (and how prepared would he have been to stun him?!) or maybe he sprinted back to the Dart and got some more stunners and would be back any second to bum-stun.

And really, this is after three years of experience with the galaxy, with people like the Chaya, Genii, Dagan and the Asurans that should've taught John to not start randomly trusting people randomly just because they have a high level of technology or are hot!

This was, of course, followed by John "omitting" some facts from his mission report/debriefing/whatever as the rest of the team didn't know he had decided on an impromptu make-out session. Good show, Colonel. You're pushing 40, who were once in command of the most important expedition in human history and you're supposedly a role model to your men but you have no problems lying when the truth would give you minus points in status (I very much doubt that the homophobic and partiarcal American Military would punish him for getting some Space Tail).

At first I was afraid, I was petrified when I learned that Sam would not only take over control of the city but also control of the military contingent. After Travelers, however, I'm glad.

Who knows what kind of disasters Colonel Space Slut could've created by randomly deciding to throw caution to the wind and start making out while the Wraith were on the loose!

I can't wait for the next time the writers decide to write a new episode to eventually be featured on a special DVD called Stargate Atlantis - The Major-Colonel-Whatever Space Slut Chronicles.

So what are you views of John's actions in these four episodes, but especially Travelers?

I'm trying to keep it positive[/b], [i]trying not to get upset[/b], I'm positive, but I'm really pissed at that [i]brunette. I really feel like slapping him to the floor, pulling his hair and calling him whore.
The above sentence is a reference to "Legally Blonde - the Musical"

PG15
October 28th, 2007, 11:12 PM
Poor guy; 3+ years and only made out with 4 women. How does a guy even deal with that?

I gotta give him props for endurance. I'd never last that long.

FallenAngelII
October 28th, 2007, 11:13 PM
Poor guy; 3+ years and only made out with 4 women. How does a guy even deal with that?

I gotta give him props for endurance. I'd never last that long.
So if we don't see it, it never happened, ever? Good god, then how do they go to the bathroom because I've never seen one. Do they all go down to the pier and squat over the edge?

We haven't seen a single other character make out with someone on the show, yet John's either made out with or been propositioned/alluded to having sexual relations with four different women now. It's the writers' way of saying that he gets around (a lot more than the rest).

PG15
October 28th, 2007, 11:18 PM
Weir in Sunday.

EDIT: Oh, and Carson and Rodney in Duet, of course.

FallenAngelII
October 28th, 2007, 11:20 PM
Weir in Sunday.

EDIT: Oh, and Carson and Rodney in Duet, of course.
Wasn't the "Sunday"-debacle a brief kiss? And Carson and Rodney had a brief kiss as well, not a make-out session.

One kiss does not a make-out session make. And said kisses didn't come from Random Aliens Who Might Kill Us Any Minute (or at least who shouldn't be trusted, even though Teer was just delusional, but she was delusional nonetheless) or lead to immediate sex (nor did the involve expect them to).

In Rodney's and Carson's case, the "Why" is obvious (unless you're one of those Slashers). In the "Sunday"-case, then well, no further hint of it was made and the city went into Alert Mode right afterwards, after all.

PG15
October 28th, 2007, 11:25 PM
I'm not any kind of slasher (or any kind of shipper, actually, at least for this show).

I was just responding to your assertion that "We haven't seen a single other character make out with someone on the show". We have, and since that statement didn't mention any extenuating circumstances (i.e. danger), I responded as such.

I shall let people who care more about your rantings to reply to the rest of this...rant.

FallenAngelII
October 28th, 2007, 11:36 PM
I was just responding to your assertion that "We haven't seen a single other character make out with someone on the show". We have, and since that statement didn't mention any extenuating circumstances (i.e. danger), I responded as such.
Yet you mentioned zero such occasions. I specifically said "make out". I'm sure Wikipedia has an article on "Making out" so I shouldn't have to explain it here, but you seem to have a much deeper grasp of the English language than just a rudimentary one, so you should know that a single brief kiss (without tongue) does not a make-out session make.

Also, you misused the word "extenuating". The fact that there was danger present was hardly an extenuating circumstance. It made the misdeed even more vile.

bluealien
October 28th, 2007, 11:37 PM
Let's say that I disagree with everything you said in your first post and to feel pure hatred for any fictional character is quite sad IMO..



Wasn't the "Sunday"-debacle a brief kiss? And Carson and Rodney had a brief kiss as well, not a make-out session.

Really.... but one random kiss for Sheppard does lead to a make out session in your opinon.


One kiss does not a make-out session make. And said kisses didn't come from Random Aliens Who Might Kill Us Any Minute (or at least who shouldn't be trusted, even though Teer was just delusional, but she was delusional nonetheless) or lead to immediate sex (nor did the involve expect them to).

You thought Teer might kill us at any minute? Random Aliens in the operative word here.. 2 women in four years... definitley random..


In Rodney's and Carson's case, the "Why" is obvious (unless you're one of those Slashers). In the "Sunday"-case, then well, no further hint of it was made and the city went into Alert Mode right afterwards, after all.


Well obviously Rodney can kiss whomever he wants, but Shep is a slut if he looks at a woman. Double standards hey!!!


Sheesh, your hatred for a character who interacts with women in a charming and easy going way is quite astounding. Shep has had a mere few interactions with women over a four year period... good grief the man is a saint.

nekoi
October 28th, 2007, 11:39 PM
His kiss in this episode was just as long as the one shared by Carson and Rodney. (If any difference, there was probably only a few seconds.)

Cry moar.

FallenAngelII
October 28th, 2007, 11:44 PM
His kiss in this episode was just as long as the one shared by Carson and Rodney. (If any difference, there was probably only a few seconds.)

Cry moar.
Wrong.

Rodney and Carson had one brief close-mouthed kiss without tongue.

You can clearly see and hear that they are making out with open mouths in this episode and they kissed more than once in quick succession (with open mouths and possibly tongue), which constitutes making out. The only reason why the making-out was aborted was because Larrin had managed to snag the stunner from John.

nekoi
October 28th, 2007, 11:48 PM
Wrong.

Rodney and John had one brief close-mouthed kiss without tongue.

You can clearly see and hear that they are making out with open mouths in this episode and they had kissed more than once, which constitutes making out. The only reason why the making-out was aborted was because Larrin had managed to snag the stunner from John.

If it was interupted/aborted, it doesn't count. Stop pushing unfufilled intentions to the extreme. John's weakness for women was used against him, so it's not like they're making the kissing entirely cliche.

Also, Rodney and John never kissed. Carson and Rodeny kissed, though. :P

FallenAngelII
October 28th, 2007, 11:48 PM
Really.... but one random kiss for Sheppard does lead to a make out session in our opinon.
It was a make-out session. It was not just one close-mouthed kiss-


You thought Teer might kill us at any minute? Random Aliens in the operative word here.. 2 women in four years... definitley random..
She was obviously delusional, claiming John would Ascend with her (and he knew that wasn't going to happen because, hey, he knows himself). As such, she's not to be trusted. She'd also just revealed that his friends were on their way to save him and that she'd been stalking him for months.

The fact that we haven't had any indicating of anyone else having sex on the show yet had 3 ambiguous ones for John says something.


Well obviously Rodney can kiss whomever he wants, but Shep is a slut if he looks at a woman. Double standards hey!!!
We have never ever seen Rodney, out of his own free will, kiss anyone on the show. I can't remember what happened in "Home", but that was the aliens messing with his mind and, hey, he actually knew her (to some extent). Both the kissing of Katie and Carson were the works of Laura Cadman.

If I grabbed your hand and used it to stab someone, would you be liable for the murder?


Sheesh, your hatred for a character who interacts with women in a charming and easy going way is quite astounding. Shep has had a mere few interactions with women over a four year period... good grief the man is a saint.
In contrast to everyone else having zero. The writers are trying to tell us something when he's the only one getting action here. Or are you saying John Sheppard is just your typical person getting Galactic Tail only sporadically while everyone else are nuns and monks who never ever even make-out with other people?

FallenAngelII
October 28th, 2007, 11:51 PM
If it was interupted/aborted, it doesn't count. Stop pushing unfufilled intentions to the extreme. John's weakness for women was used against him, so it's not like they're making the kissing entirely cliche.

Also, Rodney and John never kissed. Carson and Rodeny kissed, though. :P
The fact that the make-out session was aborted because Hostile Alien had succeeded in disarming Colonel Space Slut does in no way redeem John. In John's mind, he was getting Intergalactic Tail and he had no problems endangering the entire galaxy (with the Wraith possibly still lurking around) for it. He was presented with the opportunity and went for it.

Also, I cannot remember a single time when John's weakness for women has been "used against him" (and succeeding). Chaya was genuinely pathetic and therefore longing for some Space Tail herself and Wraith Worshipper Girl failed in getting information out of him.

That was a typo. Correcting now.

nekoi
October 28th, 2007, 11:55 PM
Larrin used her looks to lure him in, defenseless and took him by surprise. She did stun him successfully after all.

I don't know... that sounds like using his weakness against him to me.

FallenAngelII
October 28th, 2007, 11:57 PM
Larrin used her looks to lure him in, defenseless and took him by surprise. She did stun him successfully after all.

I don't know... that sounds like using his weakness against him to me.
I misread it was that John's weakness had been successfully used against him before. I apologize.

This doesn't change anything as this thread is to discuss how John's weakness makes him entirely unsuitable for his position on Atlantis. Should Sam be thrown into a Black Hole (or slip on a fork in the mess), John would be the ranking military officer. While Atlantis fails and the Wraith gate to Earth, John could be standing around making out with a Wraith worshipper because his weakness had once more been successfully used against him.

nekoi
October 29th, 2007, 12:00 AM
(I'll remove the edit from my last post and put it here:)

She did stun him once the Wraith were gone and John was confident that his friends were on their way. He felt safe, as if he had earned her trust after working together, but of course, she betrayed him.
At the point his Kirk-esque weakness was used against him, he thought they weren't in any danger.... but of course, isn't the universe ALWAYS in danger?

I'm pretty sure he's smart enough to deal with impending doom before romance. :\

FallenAngelII
October 29th, 2007, 12:05 AM
(I'll remove the edit from my last post and put it here:)

She did stun him once the Wraith were gone and John was confident that his friends were on their way. He felt safe, as if he had earned her trust after working together, but of course, she betrayed him.
At the point his Kirk-esque weakness was used against him, he thought they weren't in any danger.... but of course, isn't the universe ALWAYS in danger?

I'm pretty sure he's smart enough to deal with impending doom before romance. :\
My points is that all of his "thoughts" were unfounded and that he acted without reason or thought.

There was no way for him to know that his friends were coming. He just assumed they'd get there first (a false assumption) and that it would matter. After all, what would the Atlantis guys do with their jumpers? Threaten to blow the ship up with John on it unless ownership was transfered?

He also had no way of knowing the Wraith wouldn't be lurking behind a corner, poised for attack. He didn't, after all, wait more than 30 seconds after the Wraith got out of sight before behind down to cop a feel followed by staring at her hotness and then making out with her. Had the Wraith even been slow on the walking away, they'd both have been fed on in a heartbeat.

Also, this was the woman who had confirmed she had no qualms about killing her own people for her own nefarious purposes (the exposing of them to deadly radiation for instance) and who had tortured him repeatedly, yet he decided it'd be a good idea to make out with her because she was making "Come Hither"-eyes at him?

Yah, no redeeming points here.

KiLL3r
October 29th, 2007, 12:25 AM
jeez if you dont like it watch a different show ffs. all your threads are complaining about something to do with shepard., so why keep watching and spamming the forums with rediculous threads about the same issue

FallenAngelII
October 29th, 2007, 12:29 AM
jeez if you dont like it watch a different show ffs. all your threads are complaining about something to do with shepard., so why keep watching and spamming the forums with rediculous threads about the same issue
I've made three threads in my entire life where the theme is complaining about John Sheppard. All three happened to spring out of the same episode.

I take it you're a heterosexual male and therefore very much appreciate John Sheppard showing off his Kirkness by yet again get some Space Tail (to the detriment of the expedition). I assure you that a lot of women (and non heterosexual men) do not appreciate said plotlines and misuse of women.

morjana
October 29th, 2007, 01:32 AM
To start with, I have no problem with promiscuous people.

Obviously you DO - why else would you type this rant?


However, when their promiscuity is endaring themselves, others, they are in denial about it (that they are promiscuous) or whatever, I will use the term "Slut". Secondly, just because this colonel happens to be male doesn't mean he's any less of a slut (no, the word "Player" does not exist in my vocabulary).

Good grief.

[Takes a deep breath...]

You're for McShep, but you have problems with Sheppard romancing women?

Pardon me, but I think your bias is showing.

Morjana

FallenAngelII
October 29th, 2007, 01:38 AM
Obviously you DO - why else would you type this rant?
It's nice how you omitted the rest of that sentence.


You're for McShep, but you have problems with Sheppard romancing women?

Pardon me, but I think your bias is showing.
Yes, because obviously everyone who's for a certain pairing can't possibly be unbiased when it comes to discussing pairings.

I don't care if John's portrayed as a heterosexual on the show. I've got a problem with how that's done, however. I would be complaining just the same if the one Kirking were Ronon or Lorne. I would be complaining just the same if said character was a woman, as well.

Some of us can actually think objectively.

KiLL3r
October 29th, 2007, 01:43 AM
I've made three threads in my entire life where the theme is complaining about John Sheppard. All three happened to spring out of the same episode.

I take it you're a heterosexual male and therefore very much appreciate John Sheppard showing off his Kirkness by yet again get some Space Tail (to the detriment of the expedition). I assure you that a lot of women (and non heterosexual men) do not appreciate said plotlines and misuse of women.

what does sexual preference have to do with any of it? SO your proud of being gay good for you, doesnt mean your opinion is better than everyone elses and the show should be altered for people like you

FallenAngelII
October 29th, 2007, 01:47 AM
what does sexual preference have to do with any of it? SO your proud of being gay good for you, doesnt mean your opinion is better than everyone elses and the show should be altered for people like you
I'm merely pointing out how while a lot of heterosexual men liked episodes such as "Sanctuary", "Irresistible" and "Travelers", a lot of women and gay men hated them for the exact same reasons.

You fact that you are a healthy heterosexual male who appreciates it when such a character gets intergalactic tail might make you biased when women and gay men who aren't themselves heterosexual males who wished the same thing would happen to them consider the exact same thing to be detrimental to the plot, show and women in general.

Linzi
October 29th, 2007, 01:56 AM
Obviously you DO - why else would you type this rant?



Good grief.

[Takes a deep breath...]

You're for McShep, but you have problems with Sheppard romancing women?

Pardon me, but I think your bias is showing.

Morjana
Yeah, I agree.

Fallen, you seriously have some issues, sweetie.

morjana
October 29th, 2007, 01:58 AM
Some of us can actually think objectively.

LOL!

Now...that WAS funny.

Morjana

Linzi
October 29th, 2007, 02:08 AM
LOL!

Now...that WAS funny.

Morjana
:lol: It was! ;)

morjana
October 29th, 2007, 02:12 AM
:lol: It was! ;)

We should nominate this thread for a comedy award in rant writing, Linzi.

Morjana

Linzi
October 29th, 2007, 02:14 AM
We should nominate this thread for a comedy award in rant writing, Linzi.

Morjana
Good idea. I really do find threads such as these entertaining! They're hysterical! :)

nekoi
October 29th, 2007, 02:14 AM
We should nominate this thread for a comedy award in rant writing, Linzi.

Morjana

You've got my vote. :P

bluealien
October 29th, 2007, 02:23 AM
I've made three threads in my entire life where the theme is complaining about John Sheppard. All three happened to spring out of the same episode.

I take it you're a heterosexual male and therefore very much appreciate John Sheppard showing off his Kirkness by yet again get some Space Tail (to the detriment of the expedition). I assure you that a lot of women (and non heterosexual men) do not appreciate said plotlines and misuse of women.

UM ...I'm a woman and don't have any problem with the plotlines and don't see any misuse of women.

And I don't see Sheppard doing anything to the detriment of the expedition... she kissed him once so stop throwing in things that never happened...

So big deal, he allowed her to kiss him for a few seconds... I wonder how many guys wouldn't have done the same thing... and he had just saved her life twice so not a huge presumption to expect they had established a bit of trust between them.... and I guess in the long run they did.. or she wouldn't have let him go.

Your arguments are totally baseless and without any foundation... men and women can actually be attracted to each other without it jeopardising the whole galaxy.... it doesn't have to spell doom and gloom because two people have some sort of chemistry going on... Sheppard managed to escape, lock Larrin up, defeat the Wraith and send a signal to his people, so how did his banter or one kiss with Larrin jeopardise anything.....

So she betrayed the trust he thought he had built up with her... she would have just hit him from behind or knocked him out as soon as his back was turned anyway.... he thought they were still working together and would have had his guard down whether she hit him over the head or kissed him....

So kirking was not the issue here and even if Shep hadn't of been stunned her people arrived shortly afterwards and Shep would have been overpowerd again anyway...

FallenAngelII
October 29th, 2007, 02:45 AM
UM ...I'm a woman and don't have any problem with the plotlines and don't see any misuse of women.
I said women, not all women. It's a statistically sound argument if you go by past posts here on Gateworld.


And I don't see Sheppard doing anything to the detriment of the expedition... she kissed him once so stop throwing in things that never happened...
She initiated the kiss by leaning in, John leaned in in turn and opened his mouth for the kiss and then they started making out. People seem hellbent on making it sound like she kissed him when he was caught off guard and that it was just a chaste kiss, but it's clear that he was onboard with the idea and that it was a make-out session aborted only because she'd gotten his gun.

Why was it a make-out session? Open mouths, more than just one chaste kiss and sloppy wet kissing sounds.


So big deal, he allowed her to kiss him for a few seconds... I wonder how many guys wouldn't have done the same thing... and he had just saved her life twice so not a huge presumption to expect they had established a bit of trust between them.... and I guess in the long run they did.. or she wouldn't have let him go.
This is the women who earlier had shown no qualms about exposing her own people to deadly radiation to get what she wants, who had tortured him and hit him repeatedly in the face and who had threatened him at gunpoint. Smart people (and really, John ougta be one by now, what with the Genii, Asuran and Chaya-fiascos of trusts) would be dubious about it when she suddenly thinks they should kiss face.

He didn't just allow her to kiss him, he went with the flow and kissed back (as evidence by the engaged make-out session and the fact that his face tilted and didn't just stay still). This wasn't John letting her kiss him or her surprising him when he was caught off guard. John actively participated. Stop trying to make it sound like he didn't like it or didn't decide "What the heck!" when she offered.


Your arguments are totally baseless and without any foundation... men and women can actually be attracted to each other without it jeopardising the whole galaxy.... it doesn't have to spell doom and gloom because two people have some sort of chemistry going on... Sheppard managed to escape, lock Larrin up, defeat the Wraith and send a signal to his people, so how did his banter or one kiss with Larrin jeopardise anything.....
The thing is that in this case (and in past cases), it John has jeopardized the entire galaxy or at least Atlantis when engaging in chasing Galactic Tail.

What John had managed to do before this does not matter. The remains fact that despite all this, he decided to go for the Galactic Tail and was defeated for it, losing an Ancient warship in the process.

It does not matter if I save 12 children if I later fail and get 25 other children killed. I should still be blamed for getting those 25 children killed.


So she betrayed the trust he thought he had built up with her... she would have just hit him from behind or knocked him out as soon as his back was turned anyway.... he thought they were still working together and would have had his guard down whether she hit him over the head or kissed him....
He thought they were suddenly working together now because...? So, yes, they'd just worked together to kill off the Wraith, a common enemy. The woman who had no qualms about killing her own people and who was hellbent on gaining control of the ship would have no problems about sneak attacking him.

A smart person would just lock her up again.


So kirking was not the issue here and even if Shep hadn't of been stunned her people arrived shortly afterwards and Shep would have been overpowerd again anyway...
It does not matter what would have happened anyway. What matters is what actually happened and how it jeaopardized everything. What if the jumpers had been the first to arrive and John was being held hostage by Larrin? He also had no way of knowing that the Traveler ships would get there first. He genuinely believed the jumpers would get there first.

It's like saying that Sam's judgement shouldn't be put into question by how much she trusted RepliCarter since RepliCarter had already gotten what she needed by the time it dawned on everybody that they should just kill her or that RepliCarter's betrayal later lead to them finding the Dakarra Device. Sam still made a grave mistake, just like John.

To let his guard down and chase the Intergalatic Tail who had no qualms about killing her own people for personal gain isn't really that smart.

If John had held Larrin hostage, what were the Traveler warships going to do? Threaten to blow them both up? "Give us the ship or we'll blow it, you and our leader up!". Yeah, great threat.

Pegasus_SGA
October 29th, 2007, 04:41 AM
As I’m in work FAII you’ll have to excuse the formatting.. as I know how important that is for you. :D Okay so this is in about 2/3 parts. It’s all FAII’s fault. :D
FAII saysTo start with, I have no problem with promiscuous people. However, when their promiscuity is endaring themselves, others, they are in denial about it (that they are promiscuous) or whatever, I will use the term "Slut". Secondly, just because this colonel happens to be male doesn't mean he's any less of a slut (no, the word "Player" does not exist in my vocabulary).Also, it has been pointed out that as Sam is now a full bird Colonel, she's now also the Military Command and he's only the Second in Command. Listen carefully now, because this will probably be the only time I say this: I'm glad Sam came to Atlantis. I really am. Because that at least means John's no longer in command, a position I now see that he's clearly unfit for. Really? You could have fooled me from your umpteen Travelers posts about the innuendo/sex/boobs/LT Col Slut! :lol: No I can see you have no issues with people being promiscuous as long as they’re not called Shep! ;)And actually you can’t call Shep a ‘slut’ because he’s not a women! Check the definition, FAII. :P As for the Sam comments…. Are you going to know delete all your posts then in the Anti Sam thread now that you’ve come to this revelation? I’m actually really pleased he’s not the commander now. How could he possibly get whumped sitting behind a desk? Mind you those pins and staplers pack a mean punch I hear! ;)Unfit for command… on what do you base this assumption? After the airing of Travelers where he controlled his ATA gene, got himself and alliance and made some friends… yep definitely he’s unfit to serve… :rolleye:
I have never really disliked John. I am, after all, an avid supporter of McShep and I have downright defended him in discussions where his judgement and character have been put in question. And also, look at my avatar. He's not my favourite character on Atlantis, but he's not very far down on the list.However, I had never felt pure hatred for him 'til 4x05 - Travelers. See my companion thread 4x05 - The Most Immature Episode Ever for more about my views on the episode, or as Katie Griffith would call it: Schmeppisode.You like John? Really? You could have fooled me, :lol: But never mind I’m willing to hear you out. :D Sigs do not make the person FAII, however, mine I believe fits my personality quite well… moving swiftly on. Not hating Shep!! Sorry, I keep having to remind myself of that when you post… I really don’t know why though… Could it possibly be Fallen that you hated him because he wasn’t with Rodney, and you may have felt a teensy bit jealous that Larrin was monopolising his time instead of McKay? Who the heck is Katie Griffith and why bring her into the equation if she’s not posted?
Let's walk down memory lane, shall we:Have I said how much I enjoy our walks down memory Lane FAII, it’s a shame though your memories and mine differ so. ;)
Exhibit A - Chaya - Despite what avid Sheppard Thunkers will deny, John showed extremely poor judgement in the handling of Teer (from now on referred to only as Squid). Before anyone jumps in with "But he just wanted to be friendly with the people with the great technology", let's remind ourselves of the fact that John met Teer after GFI (Genii Fiasco I) and the botched Genii Invasion (GFII). Yet, what does he do when he meets her? He trust every single lie she spouts and not only takes her back to Atlantis, but also tells her what consoles do what (so that it'll be easier for the Genii to control the city should she turn out to be a Genii spy)! And on a side note, he goes on a picnic with her (obviously, this was beyond duty and "Being nice to the locals". This was date with a genuine Alien Priestess here), giving her some of their last supplies of certain delicacies (despite them being cut off from Earth). Yes... ha ha, how romantic. And what does he do when Rodney points out that she isn't to be trusted and that she's lying? He tells him to "Shut up". You do know that the thunkers are individuals right? Just checking. ;)You know it would also help clear up the crap, if you stuck to the facts instead of changing names, details to suit your purposes… I’m just saying. ;) So let me get this straight than Chaya + Teer+ Shep = Poor judgement? Does that sum up what you’re saying? Okay here’s some facts. Both women were ancient, and maybe, just maybe Shep’s spidey sense was tingling therefore he trusted them? There was no objective evidence to suggest that these women were being anything but honest in their intentions. IE none of them posed a threat to Atlantis. Each planets were rudimentary and the Atlantis team needed an alliance, therefore Shep (being the leader of the away team) held diplomatic relations ( with Chaya) does it really matter if it went any further. So he ate with her and had a picnic. He had to eat didn’t he? So why not build up trust by having a simple picnic? As for Teer, she instigated the whole thing… and he’d been there for months. So hardly think this is what you’d call ‘sluttish behaviour’. Have you never had lunch with local folks after they offered their hospitality?PART i :D

Pegasus_SGA
October 29th, 2007, 04:42 AM
Sorry peeps I’m just having far too much fun :D
FAII continues to say - Exhibit B - Princess Space Slut - In the endless Suckfest that is "The Tower", John had a little encounter with a gal who "wanted his genes". She drops off all of her clothes to prove this (and thank God this isn't on Showtime any more). Yes, the episode does leave what follows that dropping-of-the-clothes up for speculations and the Defenders of Sheppard constantly point out that John said that he turned down the Princess and the Kingdom, but the line could easily be interpreted to mean that John turned down marriage to the Princess, especially as we "in the know" know that the writers originally planned to confirm that John and the Princess really did the naughty. yes, the writers originally thought it to be a good idea to have John Slut It Up with Random Alien Princess because, really, what guy wouldn't, right? Captive on an alien planet with ruling despots who feast on delicacies while the people are starving and oppressed, what to do? Bang the Alien Princess. Well I wouldn’t have minded getting into Shep’s jeansgenes? And actually she threw herself on him, the little hussy. Did she have no shame in wanting Shep to have her babies.. the little hussy :rolleyes: Actually if you read the commentary Shep rejected her advances and didn’t sleep with her. Again, I fear your mind is still in the gutter. :P bang the alien princess? You do know that this is a PG forum don’t you, so it might be worth toning the language down a tad. Wouldn’t want to corrupt any little ‘gaters now would we?
Exhibit B - Teer - People like to point out that John had been stuck in there for six months and yaddi yaddi yadda, but, really, right before Teer told John the bone-chilling news that she'd been telepathically stalking him for months and that she'd had visions since since was a child about him being "The One" (To Take Her Virginity) and that he'd lead them to Ascension and Ascend with them (and really, this is where he had to know she was off her rocker because he knows himself the best and he knew that he wouldn't do that), she also told him that his friends were coming for him. He knew that they were coming for him. As he didn't know he was currently in a Time Dilation Field, he must have assumed she meant "minutes/hours/days" and not "weeks, months, whatever" and we know that they came, like, the very next day or something. Also, she's clearly delusional because she thinks he's The One who's not only destined to take her virginity but also destined to spend eternity with her. And what does he do? He knows they're coming to save him, so he bangs the hot alien while he's got the chance. It's almost taking advantage of a less intellectual (read: stupid) person.*snort* What is it with you and your thinking that women are stalkers? :lol: how do you know she was a virgin? Did she confide in you FAII or are you hypothesising or assuming again? He bangs her? Oh Fallen! I’d see it as mutual tbh. One night of sex in 3 years the man is practically a monk! :lol: And for the record she hadn’t at that point told him about his friends. So ergo flawed reasonings.
While I hated those three episodes, they didn't make me hate the character of John Sheppard. Hell, I only considered it to be a small character flaw.And yet 4 threads about this issue. ;)
Also, the Protectors of Sheppard will claim that these are just three (now four) little moments in time throughout 3 (now 3 + a few weeks) years of his life. However, why is it that out of every single member on Altantis John is the only guy who's ever gotten to make out with people (under amicable circumstances) or had scenes indicating he got laid?! And not just once but now four times. If you're claiming that John just made four misteps during his time on Atlantis, then you must also be claiming that no one else on Atlantis has had sex in 3+ years of time. It's a special thing when a single character Kirks themselves four times in three+ seasons.Protectors of Sheppard… ah won’t that please Shep that he’s got a whumper as a guardian angel. :D
And then the Suckfest that is Travelers happened (again, see my companion thread). I must be Teer, only better (because you know, I'm not delusional) because I knew what would happen the moment Laryn said "Be a shame to have to do too much damage" in reference to John's face.And happen it did, towards the end, Colonel Space Slut inexplicably (or is that "expectedly" given his track record) decides to start making out with Laryn right after telling a Wraith to run off to his Dart and go home. What the Hell was that Bimbo (and I'm referring to John here) thinking?! Here's the woman who'd tortured you earlier (multiple times), who'd threatened to kill you repteadly and you're currently in a hostile situation. Yet, the moment she ends up pressed up to you and starts batting her eyelashes at you, you decide it's a good idea to start making out?! I saw and responded in kind, but alas the next reply will have to wait until I get home. I hope you can wait that long hon. It’s just I don’t want you to shoot your load too early, and for me not being there on the receiving end. :P
And how engrossed wasn't he in the make-out session if his reflexes were too slow to punch her in the face the minute he felt her yank the stunner out of his back pocket?! This was obviously a man who was expecting to get some Intergalactic Tail and therefore ignored all reason and let all his defenses drop.Not to mention the fact that a Wraith had just been there! He could rush in and bumrush John at any moment (and how prepared would he have been to stun him?!) or maybe he sprinted back to the Dart and got some more stunners and would be back any second to bum-stun.And really, this is after three years of experience with the galaxy, with people like the Chaya, Genii, Dagan and the Asurans that should've taught John to not start randomly trusting people randomly just because they have a high level of technology or are hot!This was, of course, followed by John "omitting" some facts from his mission report/debriefing/whatever as the rest of the team didn't know he had decided on an impromptu make-out session. Good show, Colonel. You're pushing 40, who were once in command of the most important expedition in human history and you're supposedly a role model to your men but you have no problems lying when the truth would give you minus points in status (I very much doubt that the homophobic and partiarcal American Military would punish him for getting some Space Tail). Would you take someone on that had a gun in your belly?
At first I was afraid, I was petrified Why FAII did you just break out into song there? Isn’t that I will survive? I never realised you were so musically inclined. Fancy a duet?
I'm trying to [i]keep it positive[/b], [i]trying not to get upset[/b], I'm positive, but I'm really pissed at that brunette. I really feel like slapping him to the floor, pulling his hair and calling him whore.Are you a secret Shep whumper, FAII? I’d have never realised! If the deserve to thwack Shep over the head takes your fancy, then I say go forth! :D

FallenAngelII
October 29th, 2007, 05:21 AM
Really? You could have fooled me from your umpteen Travelers posts about the innuendo/sex/boobs/LT Col Slut! :lol: No I can see you have no issues with people being promiscuous as long as they’re not called Shep! ;) And actually you can’t call Shep a ‘slut’ because he’s not a women! Check the definition, FAII.
Why do you ignore a great deal of my talking about my definition of a slut? It's ok to be sexually promiscuous as long as you have no problems acknowledging it, owning up to it and declaring it your way of life (or at least a personal preference).

John, however, denies it every time he's accused of being promiscuous. He argues with Rodney every time he's called "Kirk" and he even lied (or at least omitted vital information) in his debriefing about the events in "Travelers" as none of the others knew about the little make-out session that most probably cost them an Ancient warship.

He doesn't own it.

I also see that you've got a double standard. Only women can be sluts, you say? How so? Because if men are promiscuous, it's a status symbol and they are to be called players?

Too bad Wikipedia and Dictionary.com disagree. In the modern day, the term slut can be used for men as well. I'm an equal opportunity offender and champion of equal rights and equal responsibilities for all.

Men and women can be sluts all alike regardless of gender. If John would just own up to being promiscuous, I would start referring to him as The Guy Who Gets Around or something else other than "slut".


:P As for the Sam comments…. Are you going to know delete all your posts then in the Anti Sam thread now that you’ve come to this revelation? I’m actually really pleased he’s not the commander now. How could he possibly get whumped sitting behind a desk?
I'm glad Sam's on Atlantis and the military commander. I'm, however, not glad for anything else concerning Sam's presence on Atlantis.

John, before the arrival of Sam, had been the acting military commander of Atlantis for three years, yet he'd gone off world in almost every single episode and whumped countless time.

He was never "sitting behind a desk". In fact, have we ever seen his office?


Mind you those pins and staplers pack a mean punch I hear! ;)Unfit for command… on what do you base this assumption? After the airing of Travelers where he controlled his ATA gene, got himself and alliance and made some friends…
Sheer dumb luck. If he had handled himself better and not let his libido get the best of him, he'd have gotten an Ancient warship out of the deal instead.

And it was sheer dumb luck that he managed to talk Larrin down. This was, after all, a woman who had no qualms about exposing her own people to deadly radiation to blackmail John to do her bidding. Not one to trust or to assume would be OK with an alliance, especially not after she kidnapped John and then tortured him for information she already knew.

In "Sanctuary", John brought back Chaya, an unknown woman to Atlantis and proceeded to tell her which consoles did what. This was after the attempted Genii invasion, so if she had been a Genii spy, it would've been much easier for them to take ogver the city.

In "The Tower", he indulged himself into a little nookie while kept prisoner in an Atlantis-clone while his team was off doing what knows what (for all knew, they could all be dead).

And in "Travelers", he made out with an obviously hostile woman because she batted her eyelashes at him while a Wraith might have been lurking only a few feet away.

This is clearly a person who lets their libido get the best out of them even while in hostile situations and who is not fit to serve as military commander of Atlantis.


Could it possibly be Fallen that you hated him because he wasn’t with Rodney, and you may have felt a teensy bit jealous that Larrin was monopolising his time instead of McKay?
As opposed to a lot of people, I do not let myself be biased when posting about important matters. I couldn't care less that McShep will never be canon or that John romances women.

You seem to biased by your love for John to ever acknowledge that he could make a mistake. You also seemed to be biased by the fact that you're a heterosexual male (you are, right?) as you claim that only women can be called sluts.

I care, however, about the fact that John romances women at the most inopportune times, endangering himself and others. I couldn't care less if John went for girls like Teyla, Elizabeth, Keller or Sam. At least those are safe people to be around and he can trust them.

Him romancing Teyla wouldn't lead to any danger. However, he has seemingly few inhibitions and doesn't really seem to care about what happens to the rest of the world while he's off getting some tail as proven by Chaya, Maara and Larrin.

If Larrin had been someone he'd known for a few days at least and who he knew could be trusted instead of, well, who she was, then yeah, that wouldn't really be much of a problem.

Teer he actually knew, but she was delusional and he knew that, so that was just weird.


Who the heck is Katie Griffith and why bring her into the equation if she’s not posted?
Popular culture. If you don't know who she is (I mispelled her name, BTW, it's Kathy Griffin), Google her.


Have I said how much I enjoy our walks down memory Lane FAII, it’s a shame though your memories and mine differ so. ;)You do know that the thunkers are individuals right? Just checking. ;)You know it would also help clear up the crap, if you stuck to the facts instead of changing names, details to suit your purposes… I’m just saying. ;)
Point out a single detail I changed. The only name I might've gotten wrong is Maara because I can never remember her name. The rest, I just gave some nicknames.


So let me get this straight than Chaya + Teer+ Shep = Poor judgement? Does that sum up what you’re saying? Okay here’s some facts. Both women were ancient, and maybe, just maybe Shep’s spidey sense was tingling therefore he trusted them?
Yes, because a Spider Sense is so reliable.

"My spidey senses are tingling! I should bring this woman I just met back to Atlantis, woo her with a picnic and proceed to give her a tour of Atlantis complete with intructions of what consoles do what!". And we know he was wrong about Chaya and that Rodney was right. Despite Chaya being friendly, she was lying. And John swallowed all of her lies! His spidey senses were way off. What if she had been lying about things other than who she was and her intentions?! What if she had been a Genii spy (this happened, after all, after the failed Genii invasion).

Teer wasn't untrustworthy. But she was hardly completely sane. She had been stalking him for months. She was obviously off her rocker. Add to that that she had just told him that his friends were coming. So he knew they were gonna be there any minute, yet he decided to get some tail while he could. Also, she told him that he would Ascend with her and spend eternity with her, that he was destined to. He knows himself the best and as such, he knew that she was delusional. There was no way he'd Ascend with her. But he still had sex with this delusional little girl half his age because, well, it was fun.


There was no objective evidence to suggest that these women were being anything but honest in their intentions. IE none of them posed a threat to Atlantis.
Doesn't mean that John did right by bringing Chaya back and revealing priviliged information to her. There was no objective evidence to suggest that the Genii were being anything but honest about their intentions, i.e. posing a threat to Atlantis when they first met, either. But they did.

People who are sneaky like that. This is why it's practice not to bring unknown people back to hidden secret bases, especially not to reveal how advanced technology works to them!


Each planets were rudimentary and the Atlantis team needed an alliance, therefore Shep (being the leader of the away team) held diplomatic relations ( with Chaya) does it really matter if it went any further. So he ate with her and had a picnic. He had to eat didn’t he? So why not build up trust by having a simple picnic? As for Teer, she instigated the whole thing… and he’d been there for months. So hardly think this is what you’d call ‘sluttish behaviour’. Have you never had lunch with local folks after they offered their hospitality?PART i :D
He went "beyond the necessary" and into "the Kirking territory". You do not hold diplomatic meetings by romancing the alien priestess. What if the priestess ended up wanting more? Like, say, marriage? If he refuses, there'd be a diplomatic scandal.

Also, he had no way of knowing that she wasn't a Genii spy! You do not do what he did when doing it jeapordizes Atlantis!

It does not matter who instigated what. If you agree on something without any doubt and without any coersion, you're as much guilty as the other party. You cannot claim "I was only cheating on you because they instigated it!", you agreed to as well.

John isn't some innocent guy who just has lots of women hitting on him and forcing themselves on him. He flirts back and then agrees on taking it further when they want to.


And actually she threw herself on him, the little hussy. Did she have no shame in wanting Shep to have her babies..
Did he have no shame but to agree to banging her because she threw herself at him? Men who aren't governed by their penises would say "No" flatly. She just wanted his genes. Doesn't mean he has to agree. Especially not while he's a captive of a supposed despot who wants his genes to continue his rule. Not to mention that he didn't know where the rest of his team was. They could all be dead or fighting for survival for all he knew and he decided to pass the time by getting some Space Tail because he could.

It does not matter who started it when it comes to blame. Both parties are to blame, only the one who start it is to garner more blame. John, however, is not exempt of said blame.


Actually if you read the commentary Shep rejected her advances and didn’t sleep with her.
An interview confirms that the script originally called for him to accept said advances. The writers obviously changed their minds, but that doesn't really make much difference. Their little MarySue tendencies are still evident in later episodes.


Again, I fear your mind is still in the gutter. :P bang the alien princess? You do know that this is a PG forum don’t you, so it might be worth toning the language down a tad. Wouldn’t want to corrupt any little ‘gaters now would we?*snort* What is it with you and your thinking that women are stalkers?
So she wasn't stalking him, you say? Despite her confirming it by saying that she'd been using her clairvoyant abilities to follow him wherever he went for months?

FallenAngelII
October 29th, 2007, 05:21 AM
(It wouldn't fit into just one post, exceeded the 12000-character count)

How do you know she was a virgin? Did she confide in you FAII or are you hypothesising or assuming again? He bangs her?
TEER: Because I knew you were coming that night, and I knew where you would be in the field; and I have known since I was a child that you would sit here with me as you do now. (John looks shocked.) I've been able to close my eyes and see your face my entire life, John. You are the one.
SHEPPARD: The one what?
TEER: The one who will lead us to ascension.
SHEPPARD: Oh! (He frowns.)
TEER: What is it?
SHEPPARD: Nothin'. I just was hoping you were going in a different direction with that.
TEER: I've seen that as well. (John stares at her.) That's why I waited for you.

Cleraly indicates she's been saving herself for him.



Oh Fallen! I’d see it as mutual tbh. One night of sex in 3 years the man is practically a monk! :lol: And for the record she hadn’t at that point told him about his friends. So ergo flawed reasonings.And yet 4 threads about this issue. ;)
Actually, three. And the fact that he knew about his friends coming was just a small part of a big ball of wax. I'm currently going through the script and you seem to be right.

He still knew she was delusional and a stalker.

John didn't just have possible-sex twice and intended to have sex a third time in 3 years time (Chaya - Glowy Ascended "Sharing", Teer - Virgin for the Taking, Larrin - Space Leader With Dark Motives). If you're arguing that as long we don't see it, it's never ever happened, then I guess the expedition never goes to the bathroom, because I can't remember a single time where someone indicates they're going to the bathroom.

I've never seen Elizabeth's quarters either or heard references to them, so she must have slept on the pier. I have never seen Daniel shower, so he must not do that.

And not a single character other than John has ever been indicated as getting some Space Tail or Tail At All on Atlantis. Rodney and Katie didn't get much out of their date according to later episodes and the spoilers tell us, well, something.

John, however, gets tons of action. The writers are obviously telling us that he's promiscuous. Or are you claiming that he's only gotten Space Tail twice, gotten offered once but rejected it and then intended to get some Space Tail a third time? Because if you are, then the same argument can be made that not a single member of the expedition other than John has had sex in over three years.

I edited by original post, by the way. Any reference to him knowing his people were coming has been removed and I've added the part where his libido made him hope that she meant he was the one destined to take her virginity instead of the one destined to help them all Ascend.

Linzi
October 29th, 2007, 05:25 AM
Sorry peeps I’m just having far too much fun Well I wouldn’t have minded getting into Shep’s jeansgenes? And actually she threw herself on him, the little hussy. Did she have no shame in wanting Shep to have her babies.. the little hussy :rolleyes: Actually if you read the commentary Shep rejected her advances and didn’t sleep with her. Again, I fear your mind is still in the gutter. :P bang the alien princess? You do know that this is a PG forum don’t you, so it might be worth toning the language down a tad. Wouldn’t want to corrupt any little ‘gaters now would we?*snort* What is it with you and your thinking that women are stalkers? how do you know she was a virgin? Did she confide in you FAII or are you hypothesising or assuming again? He bangs her? Oh Fallen! I’d see it as mutual tbh. One night of sex in 3 years the man is practically a monk! And for the record she hadn’t at that point told him about his friends. So ergo flawed reasonings.And yet 4 threads about this issue. ;)Also, the Protectors of Sheppard will claim that these are just three (now four) little moments in time throughout 3 (now 3 + a few weeks) years of his life. However, why is it that out of every single member on Altantis John is the only guy who's ever gotten to make out with people (under amicable circumstances) or had scenes indicating he got laid?! And not just once but now four times. If you're claiming that John just made four misteps during his time on Atlantis, then you must also be claiming that no one else on Atlantis has had sex in 3+ years of time. It's a special thing when a single character Kirks themselves four times in three+ seasons.Protectors of Sheppard… ah won’t that please Shep that he’s got a whumper as a guardian angel. :DI saw and responded in kind, but alas the next reply will have to wait until I get home. I hope you can wait that long hon. It’s just I don’t want you to shoot your load too early, and for me not being there on the receiving end. Would you take someone on that had a gun in your belly?Why FAII did you just break out into song there? Isn’t that I will survive? I never realised you were so musically inclined. Fancy a duet?Are you a secret Shep whumper, FAII? I’d have never realised! If the deserve to thwack Shep over the head takes your fancy, then I say go forth!
:lol: I just love your posts, because they always make me smile! Well, except when you don't agree with me, and then I want to thwack you! ;) I'm not going to say anything other than:



DITTO!!!!

Seriously, you're saving me from RSI here, because I don't have to answer such posts, because you said what I was going to, only much better and in such an amusing and unique way! You are SOOOO CHEEKY! ;) So, from now on, I'll designate you my official spokesperson and you can get RSI instead. I know, whump Shep not self and all. Hey, I had no idea Fallen was a secret Shep whumper! He's turned to the darkside! :eek:

dana
October 29th, 2007, 05:53 AM
I'm going to be a minority here as it seems, but I do agree that some women are misused in SGA (or SG universe) and that Sheppard seems to be the male version of Mary Sue of SGA. This Shep!Whoring should cease. Period. I'm not interested in that. It doesn't develop his character any way and only puts him in the promiscuous category.

And mocking somebody for their opinions is very mature. :sheppardanime31:

Ruined_puzzle
October 29th, 2007, 06:33 AM
ITA with Dana.

Also apparently it's totally fine to make fun of certain people but when it comes to others, oh noes, they wll have your head off.

FallenAngelII I agree Shep is a h0re but I'd prefer Cadwell to be in command.

PG15
October 29th, 2007, 07:01 AM
I'd rather think I was mocking his behavior, not opinion.

FallenAngelII
October 29th, 2007, 07:08 AM
I'd rather think I was mocking his behavior, not opinion.
My... behavior? You mean the expression of said opinion? Because that's really all I've been doing here. And while some of my points were faulty (like the point where I thought Teer told John the others were coming before he slept with her), you have yet to provide any real arguments to counter the majority of them (in my opinion).

And at least I don't mock your opinions.

Xaeden
October 29th, 2007, 08:53 AM
Chaya[/b] - Despite what avid Sheppard Thunkers will deny, John showed extremely poor judgement in the handling of Teer (from now on referred to only as Squid). Before anyone jumps in with "But he just wanted to be friendly with the people with the great technology", let's remind ourselves of the fact that John met Teer after GFI (Genii Fiasco I) and the botched Genii Invasion (GFII). Yet, what does he do when he meets her? He trust every single lie she spouts and not only takes her back to Atlantis, but also tells her what consoles do what (so that it'll be easier for the Genii to control the city should she turn out to be a Genii spy)!

They found her on a planet with a space gate, so there was no way she could've been a Genii spy. On the other hand Mckay was worried that they might be another technologically advanced race who was pretending not to be, but Weir approved of the tour and Mckay offered to help Sheppard show her how the systems worked so he was not acting alone. They all thought that the benefit of getting their hands on a possible ZPM or finding a sanctuary far outweighed the risk.

prion
October 29th, 2007, 09:07 AM
I have no problem with any of hte characters getting a 'little action' as well, none of them are monks, but it should be few and far between because this is SGA, not a soap opera.

Anyway, it didn't bother me that Shep kissed Larrin. What DID bother me was the timing. Sorry, but you let wussy wraith slink out on his own good word that he'll return to his ship and leave? Uh huh. Sorry, but neither shep nor larrin were doing the smart thing - escorting the dangerous wraith back to his ship or at least monitoring him on the lsd. No no, they were too busy grabbing each other and Shep was, sigh, dumb enough to fall for that. after all the stuff larrin pulled, i wouldn't trust her to empty my cat's kitty litter. he had the gun and he let her get her hands on it.

i'd fault sheppard for this but instead i'll fault the writers (yes, more than one no matter what anybody says as the producers have final say on what ends up on screen) for not giving us a more credible way of shep losing the ship. i honestly would have believed it more if shep turned his back for a second and she clobbered him.

FallenAngelII
October 29th, 2007, 09:29 AM
They found her on a planet with a space gate, so there was no way she could've been a Genii spy. On the other hand Mckay was worried that they might be another technologically advanced race who was pretending not to be, but Weir approved of the tour and Mckay offered to help Sheppard show her how the systems worked so he was not acting alone. They all thought that the benefit of getting their hands on a possible ZPM or finding a sanctuary far outweighed the risk.
I'm not saying she must've been a Genii spy, but after the Genii debacle, he should've been much more careful with strangers. She could've had ulterior motives for any number of reasons.

Also, they obviously have high technology and according to the Genii, they were once a great confederation. Maybe a lost Genii faction.

I doubt Rodney would've gone into detail about exactly what consoles did what and John took said woman on a tour on his own. She could've turned around, drawn a gun out of her hair and taken him hostage at any point. You do not bring a stranger into Atlantis and then wander off alone with them for hours on end.

And this is what transpired in that episode:
SHEPPARD: Come back to Atlantis... see who we really are...Once Othara learns more about us...

John, without discussing it, at all, with anyone decided to spring this suggestion on Chaya (after (c)overtly flirting with her, what with the "I was hoping you'd say that" when she said she'd make tea and being "stunned by her beauty when he first laid eyes on her" and all), despite Rodney's obvious dislike and distrust (not yet so very obvious, though) for her.

If Elizabeth or Rodney had anything to say, I'm sure he smoothed them over.

Elizabeth suggested a "full tour". I doubt such a tour would include "And that console controls this and that" but more "And this is the room with the nice mosaic". Rodney suggested he'd tag along to explain some systems John had no idea of what they did, he did not say that he'd tell Chaya how to work them or what consoles controlled them.

The full tour could also just mean "And over there is a big machine that handles the climate", nothing Evil Aliens would have any real use of in case of a foothold.

John also revealed really priviliged information to her:
* That they came from a planet called Earth in another galaxy
* He also told her they came through the Stargate and cannot return
* That he was the one who woke up the Wraith
* He pointed out with consoles controlled what: Main control, environmental controls (like the halon gas dispenser-thing), communications

You usually don't tell strangers information like this just to be friendly after a botched Genii invasion.

Pegasus_SGA
October 29th, 2007, 09:36 AM
Why do you ignore a great deal of my talking about my definition of a slut? It's ok to be sexually promiscuous as long as you have no problems acknowledging it, owning up to it and declaring it your way of life (or at least a personal preference).

Because it's not an accurate definition, you can't call a man a slut! Check the dictionary definition. If you want to still maintain that he's a slut, then your argument is flawed from the onset. Why would anyone go around saying that they are a slut and they sleep around. Sex is between two people, and not something that should be broadcast throughout the galaxy, so sorry, that may be my very prudish view, but who's business it it who you sleep with? So if Shep went round saying he bedded everything that moved, would that reinforce your argument, or alleviate the feelings you currently have about him and his 'slut status'?



John, however, denies it every time he's accused of being promiscuous. He argues with Rodney every time he's called "Kirk" and he even lied (or at least omitted vital information) in his debriefing about the events in "Travelers" as none of the others knew about the little make-out session that most probably cost them an Ancient warship.

I also see that you've got a double standard. Only women can be sluts, you say? How so? Because if men are promiscuous, it's a status symbol and they are to be called players?


When has someone asked him if he was promiscuous? Do you go aroud telling all your friends/acquantances who you've slept with? It's considered bad form, and a tad tacky to be honest, and not very mature if you ask me. So the fact that he's actually not said anything just reinforces the fact of how mature he is, doesn't it? So he rolls his eyes at Rodney calling him Kirk... doesn't that eye roll in itself suggest something? Maybe a 'whatever'? He lied about sleeping with someone? OH how dare he keep something like that private. You mean he didn't even go into details about what positions he liked, or the fact that she took advantage after he let his guard down? Shame on him, didn't his mother ever teach him to share?

It's not my double standards hon, it's the dictionary's take it up with them. :lol:



Too bad Wikipedia and Dictionary.com disagree. In the modern day, the term slut can be used for men as well. I'm an equal opportunity offender and champion of equal rights and equal responsibilities for all.


Wikipedia is not the be all and end all. Why not check the Oxford dictionary for the proper definition.. oh and shall I just quote from Dictionary. com since you won't?

1.a dirty, slovenly woman. 2.an immoral or dissolute woman; prostitute.

Ooh lookey I was right! There's a shocker. :D



Men and women can be sluts all alike regardless of gender. If John would just own up to being promiscuous, I would start referring to him as The Guy Who Gets Around or something else other than "slut".


Actually no, the term slut is derogatory female term. Hell if a women sleeps around she's called a slut, if a man does it, he's a stud! ;) That's the difference. :lol:



I'm glad Sam's on Atlantis and the military commander. I'm, however, not glad for anything else concerning Sam's presence on Atlantis.

John, before the arrival of Sam, had been the acting military commander of Atlantis for three years, yet he'd gone off world in almost every single episode and whumped countless time.

He was never "sitting behind a desk". In fact, have we ever seen his office?


So, your being involved with the anti Sam thread was what? Bad judgement? ;)

I never said he was sitting behind a desk, his desk was probably Weir's office. Ah yes... the whumpage, you gotta love a sexy vulnerable man who gets whumped. *thud*


Sheer dumb luck. If he had handled himself better and not let his libido get the best of him, he'd have gotten an Ancient warship out of the deal instead.

Right, and if he didn't care about the two men who were about to be radiated he would have got the Aurora class. I personally think it's a disgracefull quality helping someone out when they've been near death, and expecting a bit of trust! Absolutely dispicable. The man should be shot for trying to do that... and you'd have preffered him to do what? Leave her there on the ground and locked her in... sorry that's not his style and being a 'fan of Sheppard's' as you said you were. you'd know that. :P



And it was sheer dumb luck that he managed to talk Larrin down. This was, after all, a woman who had no qualms about exposing her own people to deadly radiation to blackmail John to do her bidding. Not one to trust or to assume would be OK with an alliance, especially not after she kidnapped John and then tortured him for information she already knew.


Sheer dumb luck? So was it also sheer dumb luck when he got the Athosians on board to? Have you watched the ep again? Did you not see that they were in fact 'working together' when she shot him?



In "Sanctuary", John brought back Chaya, an unknown woman to Atlantis and proceeded to tell her which consoles did what. This was after the attempted Genii invasion, so if she had been a Genii spy, it would've been much easier for them to take ogver the city.

In "The Tower", he indulged himself into a little nookie while kept prisoner in an Atlantis-clone while his team was off doing what knows what (for all knew, they could all be dead).

And in "Travelers", he made out with an obviously hostile woman because she batted her eyelashes at him while a Wraith might have been lurking only a few feet away.


He also trusted Teyla on their first meeting and brought the Athosians back... so, was that the wrong choice?

*giggles* A little nookie! hehehe nice to know the language has been toned down. :D Actually as I said before he rejected her advances.

One kiss = making out? Right okay then? :rolleyes: As I said to you before, us women have wonderful feminine wiles that can make a fair few men crumble to their knees. What can I say, it's a gift!



This is clearly a person who lets their libido get the best out of them even while in hostile situations and who is not fit to serve as military commander of Atlantis.

As opposed to a lot of people, I do not let myself be biased when posting about important matters. I couldn't care less that McShep will never be canon or that John romances women.


Right, so in CG, the Siege, The Return, Sateda, The Hive, shall I continue? In those eps he allowed his libido to make command decisions? That is what you're saying isn't it?



You seem to biased by your love for John to ever acknowledge that he could make a mistake. You also seemed to be biased by the fact that you're a heterosexual male (you are, right?) as you claim that only women can be called sluts.


*giggles* Ah I wondered when this old chestnut would come out, it reminds me of the first time we met FAII. You know, i've given this some careful thought hon, I only watch SGA for lusting after Shep, and I am so not interested in the technoogy, the races, the ships, the CGI, the score, the characters. None of that appeals to me. The only thing i'm actually interested in is Shep wearing the black t-shirt of yum and then taking it off! Which is why I absolutely detest any episodes where he's not the star! Oh wait... I loved TRW, and GUP and Sateda, so I was watching them in the hopes of what?

Oh no, I have no problem saying if he's wrong or out of line. So, once more your assumption of me and what I like has been shot down in flames, would you like to try again?

You're asking me if i'm male when I told you earlier that I had big boobs? :lol: Well, I suppose men can have big boobs. *gets a mirror and checks her plumbing* Nope I can definately say without a shadow of a doubt i'm female. Close FAII, but no cigar!

I

care, however, about the fact that John romances women at the most inopportune times, endangering himself and others. I couldn't care less if John went for girls like Teyla, Elizabeth, Keller or Sam. At least those are safe people to be around and he can trust them.

Him romancing Teyla wouldn't lead to any danger. However, he has seemingly few inhibitions and doesn't really seem to care about what happens to the rest of the world while he's off getting some tail as proven by Chaya, Maara and Larrin.


So you're concerns are that his 'bedding' would result in the destruction of Atlantis... from one woman? Don't you think he'd rather die himself than allow that to happen? There's this little thing called integrity, ya know!



If Larrin had been someone he'd known for a few days at least and who he knew could be trusted instead of, well, who she was, then yeah, that wouldn't really be much of a problem.

Teer he actually knew, but she was delusional and he knew that, so that was just weird.


Popular culture. If you don't know who she is (I mispelled her name, BTW, it's Kathy Griffin), Google her.


He did put his trust in her, they were working together, what would that suggest to you? I'm not interested in Kathy Griffin tbh, her thoughts and feelings have got nothing to do with this debate.



Point out a single detail I changed. The only name I might've gotten wrong is Maara because I can never remember her name. The rest, I just gave some nicknames.


Can you say squid?


Yes, because a Spider Sense is so reliable.

You obviously haven't heard about mine then I take it?



"My spidey senses are tingling! I should bring this woman I just met back to Atlantis, woo her with a picnic and proceed to give her a tour of Atlantis complete with intructions of what consoles do what!". And we know he was wrong about Chaya and that Rodney was right. Despite Chaya being friendly, she was lying. And John swallowed all of her lies! His spidey senses were way off. What if she had been lying about things other than who she was and her intentions?! What if she had been a Genii spy (this happened, after all, after the failed Genii invasion).



Spidey senses are 'gut feelings' when you work in certain situations, you rely on your gut, that's what i'm talking about. Most of the time you're right, but it's not falliable. However, there comes a point where trust comes into play. And sometimes it takes the braver person to make that first move and lower your guard as you never know where it can lead. In this case it may have lead to a tentative alliance... so how is that a bad thing?



Teer wasn't untrustworthy. But she was hardly completely sane. She had been stalking him for months. She was obviously off her rocker. Add to that that she had just told him that his friends were coming. So he knew they were gonna be there any minute, yet he decided to get some tail while he could. Also, she told him that he would Ascend with her and spend eternity with her, that he was destined to. He knows himself the best and as such, he knew that she was delusional. There was no way he'd Ascend with her. But he still had sex with this delusional little girl half his age because, well, it was fun.


Again with the stalker stuff! Because she had visions she was a stalker? Little girl? Hardly! So he slept with her, being with her for 6 months is not exactly jumping into bed with the first woman he set eyes on. :lol:

TBC :D

Xaeden
October 29th, 2007, 09:57 AM
Here we see Weir came up with the idea of the tour on her own and is annoyed only that Sheppard had the same idea and promised it to Chaya before consulting her.


WEIR: I hope you don't mind but our doctors do require a medical exam of all offworld team members and our visitors but after that perhaps you would like a full tour.

CHAYA: I would love that.

TEYLA: Major Sheppard has already promised to do so.

WEIR: Of course he has.

Here Mckay offers to help show her advanced systems and Sheppard walks off without him not because he wants to be alone with her, but because Mckay was shooting off his mouth to her on the planet and Sheppard had to order him back to the jumper before he blew it.


MCKAY: Maybe I should tag along in case you have any questions the Major can't answe-

SHEPPARD: *holds hand up* I think I can handle it Rodney.

MCKAY: There are a lot of systems you know absolute-

SHEPPARD: Got it covered. *walks off*

Here Mckay references the Genii situation to Weir and despite it she still allows Chaya to tour the city. She of course would've been aware that Sheppard was showing her the city's systems. You have to realize how close they were to the Wraith attack at this point and how they really thought they would lose the city and had to find some place to escape to. Gaining her trust was a priority over protecting a doomed city.


MCKAY: Take another team back in the jumper. Scan the planet for energy signatures. Chaya's people won't have a clue what we're doing from orbit unless they are a technically advanced race which they pretend not to be. Which has happened before...*they stop*

Here Sheppard tells Telya that Weir wanted Chaya to see everything and Telya, realizing Sheppard likes her, calls him on how showing her a view of the city at night is doing what Weir wanted.


SHEPPARD: Doctor Weir wanted me to make sure that Chaya saw everything.

SHEPPARD: Well...not everything uh...Chaya mentioned she wanted to see the best view of the city at night which I think is at the top of the south west pier and...and since it's such a long walk I thought I'd...bring along a few provisions.

Here Weir is defending Chaya despite all the evidence Mckay is building against her (notice it's not Sheppard who is blinding doing so - Sheppard yells at Mckay later on but only because Mckay is handling it in his usual loud mouth manner).


MCKAY: Look the biometric differential is not insignificant Elizabeth. What I'm saying is...*quietly* the woman set off an alien alarm.

WEIR: Come on you don't know that for certain. Now Grodin says *McKay sighs* you are nowhere close to understanding what the nature of that device is.

MCKAY: There are too many unknown variables. There's the energy weapon, the fact that they claim never to have seen the Wraith...what about the fact that she's essentially a text book *Weir rolls eyes and walks off to office* case of healthy.

WEIR: All very mysterious yes. But what does it prove?

MCKAY: That we should give her a one way ticket back home.

WEIR: *comes back out* There is obviously something very...different about her yes. But that doesn't necessarily make her a threat.

MCKAY: It doesn't rule it out either.

WEIR: Then for the moment I think what we can gain by securing a treaty is worth the risk of her being here. *walks off*

MCKAY: Fine.

A few other things...

*Chaya had an X-ray so there was no way she could've been hiding a weapon and they likely patted her down before then.
*Sheppard telling her about Earth wasn't privilaged. The Wraith already knew about it so it didn't matter who he told at this point.
*Him telling her that they could not return to Earth was an important part of getting her to realize just how badly they would've needed her sanctuary.

Pegasus_SGA
October 29th, 2007, 10:37 AM
Where was I?


FallenII - the continution

Doesn't mean that John did right by bringing Chaya back and revealing priviliged information to her. There was no objective evidence to suggest that the Genii were being anything but honest about their intentions, i.e. posing a threat to Atlantis when they first met, either. But they did.

And Weir did right bringing the Wraith, Michael and the Ladon into Atlantis? You know there comes a time when you have to trust someone. Sheppard trusted her, it turns out his instincts (read: spidy sense) was correct... wasn't it?



People who are sneaky like that. This is why it's practice not to bring unknown people back to hidden secret bases, especially not to reveal how advanced technology works to them!


He went "beyond the necessary" and into "the Kirking territory". You do not hold diplomatic meetings by romancing the alien priestess. What if the priestess ended up wanting more? Like, say, marriage? If he refuses, there'd be a diplomatic scandal.


How was she sneaky, because she didn't reveal who she was right away? Do the Atlantis expedition when they go off world? And when did he show her how the control systems worked? Well, she was the spokesperson for her people, so would you rather he spoke to the 'monk' who knew diddly squat? Go straight to the source I say! So what if she wanted more? *snort* A diplomatic scandal? How on earth do you figure that one out, and hon, lets stick to what we know rather than hypothosising all the coulda, woulda, shoulda stuff? Yes?



Also, he had no way of knowing that she wasn't a Genii spy! You do not do what he did when doing it jeapordizes Atlantis!


Who wasn't a Gennii spy? Larrin? With that technology? :lol:



It does not matter who instigated what. If you agree on something without any doubt and without any coersion, you're as much guilty as the other party. You cannot claim "I was only cheating on you because they instigated it!", you agreed to as well.

John isn't some innocent guy who just has lots of women hitting on him and forcing themselves on him. He flirts back and then agrees on taking it further when they want to.


Yep, so what's wrong with flirting? I'm not sure what you mean or where you're going with the coersion thing.



Did he have no shame but to agree to banging her because she threw herself at him? Men who aren't governed by their penises would say "No" flatly. She just wanted his genes. Doesn't mean he has to agree. Especially not while he's a captive of a supposed despot who wants his genes to continue his rule. Not to mention that he didn't know where the rest of his team was. They could all be dead or fighting for survival for all he knew and he decided to pass the time by getting some Space Tail because he could.


How many men don't think about sex, or wouldn't think about it, if it was someone they fancied, or if they were throwing themselves at them? Show of hands here please. :D Don't be shy. I'm not Larrin, I don't bite. :P The thing is he didn't sleep with her. So what does that suggest?



It does not matter who started it when it comes to blame. Both parties are to blame, only the one who start it is to garner more blame. John, however, is not exempt of said blame.


An interview confirms that the script originally called for him to accept said advances. The writers obviously changed their minds, but that doesn't really make much difference. Their little MarySue tendencies are still evident in later episodes.


So she wasn't stalking him, you say? Despite her confirming it by saying that she'd been using her clairvoyant abilities to follow him wherever he went for months?

I never said his judgement was off regarding Larrin. He trusted her (after they worked together and supported each other) He thought they were on a mutual level of trust and it turns out they weren't. If you're asking me If I think he shouldn't have kissed her in that sort of situation, the answer is yes. He should have waited until they got to his cell... at least there was a bed there. ;) However Shep did not kirk! Kirking suggests one motive, and I think that he had more things to concentraite on than having a quickie.

I hate to break it to you, hon, but Mary Sue's are perfect. Shep is not perfect. No one is perfect and people make mistakes, it's called being human.

Nope, that was her gift and it was something she used with everyone including the village, so nope not stalking. Do you want to get into the defination of staking to?


(It wouldn't fit into just one post, exceeded the 12000-character count)

TEER: Because I knew you were coming that night, and I knew where you would be in the field; and I have known since I was a child that you would sit here with me as you do now. (John looks shocked.) I've been able to close my eyes and see your face my entire life, John. You are the one.
SHEPPARD: The one what?
TEER: The one who will lead us to ascension.
SHEPPARD: Oh! (He frowns.)
TEER: What is it?
SHEPPARD: Nothin'. I just was hoping you were going in a different direction with that.
TEER: I've seen that as well. (John stares at her.) That's why I waited for you.

Cleraly indicates she's been saving herself for him.

Not necessarily and how is that Sheppard's fault, or that he shouldn't be a commander because she's been waiting for him? Did he ask her to? So she saved herself? What's your point? That this indicates stalkering? Because she had a vision that she'd be with someone who would help her and her people?



Actually, three. And the fact that he knew about his friends coming was just a small part of a big ball of wax. I'm currently going through the script and you seem to be right.

He still knew she was delusional and a stalker.


He giveth and he taketh away. :P



John didn't just have possible-sex twice and intended to have sex a third time in 3 years time (Chaya - Glowy Ascended "Sharing", Teer - Virgin for the Taking, Larrin - Space Leader With Dark Motives). If you're arguing that as long we don't see it, it's never ever happened, then I guess the expedition never goes to the bathroom, because I can't remember a single time where someone indicates they're going to the bathroom.


ooh 3 times in 3 years! What a tart! ;) I'm not arguing that we didn't see it. I think he did have sex with her (Teer) Is the glowy thing sex then? Didn't Shep say it was better than sex? So ergo not sex?



I've never seen Elizabeth's quarters either or heard references to them, so she must have slept on the pier. I have never seen Daniel shower, so he must not do that.

And not a single character other than John has ever been indicated as getting some Space Tail or Tail At All on Atlantis. Rodney and Katie didn't get much out of their date according to later episodes and the spoilers tell us, well, something.


Sheppard has never said to anyone that he had sex with the 3 you stated, because that's not who he is. Likewise have we heard of Ronon, Weir, Teyla sleeping with anyone... Maybe they slept with LL! :eek: Isn't that what LL suggested in teh ep, that he bedded the women sometimes all at once? I'm just saying. ;)


John, however, gets tons of action. The writers are obviously telling us that he's promiscuous. Or are you claiming that he's only gotten Space Tail twice, gotten offered once but rejected it and then intended to get some Space Tail a third time? Because if you are, then the same argument can be made that not a single member of the expedition other than John has had sex in over three years.

Tonnes of action? If 3 (if we're counting all of them is tonnes in 4 years) then sorry not slutty by my standards, yours however may differ.



I edited by original post, by the way. Any reference to him knowing his people were coming has been removed and I've added the part where his libido made him hope that she meant he was the one destined to take her virginity instead of the one destined to help them all Ascend.

thanks for that.


:lol: I just love your posts, because they always make me smile! Well, except when you don't agree with me, and then I want to thwack you! ;) I'm not going to say anything other than:



DITTO!!!!

Seriously, you're saving me from RSI here, because I don't have to answer such posts, because you said what I was going to, only much better and in such an amusing and unique way! You are SOOOO CHEEKY! ;) So, from now on, I'll designate you my official spokesperson and you can get RSI instead. I know, whump Shep not self and all. Hey, I had no idea Fallen was a secret Shep whumper! He's turned to the darkside! :eek:

hehehe well the fingers are whumped. :D Cheeky is much more fun than being serious. :D FAII may disagree. :D hehehe I never realised it to! We've converted him to the dark side. Who would have thought it!! next step agreeing to everything I say. ;)


I'm going to be a minority here as it seems, but I do agree that some women are misused in SGA (or SG universe) and that Sheppard seems to be the male version of Mary Sue of SGA. This Shep!Whoring should cease. Period. I'm not interested in that. It doesn't develop his character any way and only puts him in the promiscuous category.

And mocking somebody for their opinions is very mature. :sheppardanime31:

Oooh we're on to Shep whoring now! Woohoo!

Definition of whore:
Etymology: Middle English hore, from Old English h?re; akin to Old Norse h?ra whore, h?rr adulterer, Latin carus dear — more at charity (http://www.meriam-webster.com/dictionary/charity) Date: before 12th century 1: a woman who engages in sexual acts for money : prostitute (http://www.meriam-webster.com/dictionary/prostitute); also : a promiscuous or immoral woman2: a male who engages in sexual acts for money3: a venal or unscrupulous person

*reads the defiition*

Hmmmmmmm I think not!! Unless you'd like to disagree? Mocking? In what way was I mocking? Because I feel it's a ridiculous topic that has no basis? And have provided my reasonings? Okay if that's mocking, then i'll hold my hand up and say, I know it and I love it! :D


ITA with Dana.

Also apparently it's totally fine to make fun of certain people but when it comes to others, oh noes, they wll have your head off.

FallenAngelII I agree Shep is a h0re but I'd prefer Cadwell to be in command.

Actually Fallen and I are debating... surprisingly that's what the forum is for, if you disagree, fine. But if you look at the title of the thread it does say, "Why Colonel Sheppard should not be in command" So wouldn't that suggest that people coming in would give their reasonings? Which I did, so because I disagree with Fallen i'm biting his head off? Silly me, I thought the whole idea of debating was just that coming at things from two different points of view. *looks up at RP's post* At least I gave my opinions and the point of your post was to agree shep was a whore and that's it? No he's a whore because... ?

stclare
October 29th, 2007, 10:38 AM
On the Sanctuary front, the only thing that i felt was wrong of Sheppered was that he seemed to refuse to listen to Rodneys concerns, but then so did Weir. there a team hes there leader i think it showed a lack of trust in Rodneys abilitys. i dont know why the writters played it that way. Carter listened to Keller about her concerns in DG would sheppered have if there roles were reversed or is it just a pretty face thats able to sway Shep to a certain path?

i dont like the inconsistencys i see in shep but maybe thats just me being over sensitive ;)

PG15
October 29th, 2007, 12:20 PM
My... behavior? You mean the expression of said opinion? Because that's really all I've been doing here. And while some of my points were faulty (like the point where I thought Teer told John the others were coming before he slept with her), you have yet to provide any real arguments to counter the majority of them (in my opinion).

And at least I don't mock your opinions.

Well, I haven't tried to seriously counter any of your "arguments" because I think using that much effort in this particular thread is a horrible waste of...effort. Besides, a lot of other people are doing just fine without me.

And it does not surprise me one bit that you can't tell the difference between mocking someone's opinion and mocking how they express said opinion. After all, if you did, your posts would be vastly different.

Agent_Dark
October 29th, 2007, 12:40 PM
sif delete teh picture of alf. it was highly appropriate to this thread.

Linzi
October 29th, 2007, 01:11 PM
sif delete teh picture of alf. it was highly appropriate to this thread.
:lol:
It made me chuckle! ;)

Mitchell82
October 29th, 2007, 05:16 PM
Also, it has been pointed out that as Sam is now a full bird Colonel, she's now also the Military Command and he's only the Second in Command. Listen carefully now, because this will probably be the only time I say this: I'm glad Sam came to Atlantis. I really am. Because that at least means John's no longer in command, a position I now see that he's clearly unfit for.
*yawn* Your constant griping is putting me to sleep because it's nothing new. YOu are finding anything you can to bash this show and coming very close to the "t" word.


I have never really disliked John. I am, after all, an avid supporter of McShep and I have downright defended him in discussions where his judgement and character have been put in question. And also, look at my avatar. He's not my favourite character on Atlantis, but he's not very far down on the list.
Really? Your posts seem to indicate otherwise.


However, I had never felt pure hatred for him 'til 4x05 - Travelers. See my companion thread 4x05 - The Most Immature Episode Ever for more about my views on the episode, or as Katie Griffith would call it: Schmeppisode.
To have pure hatred to a fictional character brings one word to mind. Sad. And I have seen your newest gripe thread and wholy disagree with you.


Let's walk down memory lane, shall we:
Exhibit A - Chaya - Despite what avid Sheppard Thunkers will deny, John showed extremely poor judgement in the handling of Chaya. Before anyone jumps in with "But he just wanted to be friendly with the people with the great technology", let's remind ourselves of the fact that John met Teer after GFI (Genii Fiasco I) and the botched Genii Invasion (GFII). Yet, what does he do when he meets her? He trust every single lie she spouts and not only takes her back to Atlantis, but also tells her what consoles do what (so that it'll be easier for the Genii to control the city should she turn out to be a Genii spy)! And on a side note, he goes on a picnic with her (obviously, this was beyond duty and "Being nice to the locals". This was date with a genuine Alien Priestess here), giving her some of their last supplies of certain delicacies (despite them being cut off from Earth). Yes... ha ha, how romantic. And what does he do when Rodney points out that she isn't to be trusted and that she's lying? He tells him to "Shut up".
Uh sorry you have this backwards. Rodney was the one that was being an ass the entire ep and one of my least fav Rodney eps I try to ingore him in that one. Chaya wasn't lying nor was she untrustworthy she was an Ancient who was punished for helping her people. SHE fell in love with him. She was hiding her true nature but not lying as you suggest. I do not see your point of view on this one at all.

Exhibit B - Princess Space Slut - In the endless Suckfest that is "The Tower", John had a little encounter with a gal who "wanted his genes". She drops off all of her clothes to prove this (and thank God this isn't on Showtime any more).
Ok I do agree that was a bit extreme and while the ep isn't the best of season 2 it is not that bad. As to the showtime comment that makes absolutly no sense as there was ONE instance of nudity.

Yes, the episode does leave what follows that dropping-of-the-clothes up for speculations and the Defenders of Sheppard constantly point out that John said that he turned down the Princess and the Kingdom, but the line could easily be interpreted to mean that John turned down marriage to the Princess, especially as we "in the know" know that the writers originally planned to confirm that John and the Princess really did the naughty. yes, the writers originally thought it to be a good idea to have John Slut It Up with Random Alien Princess because, really, what guy wouldn't, right? Captive on an alien planet with ruling despots who feast on delicacies while the people are starving and oppressed, what to do? Bang the Alien Princess.
So by your pov it's wrong for him to have sex once in a while? Who cares if they did or not the thing here is, it was a setup for them to control the planet for generations to come with his superior genes. So yes I would defend him.

Exhibit C - Teer - People like to point out that John had been stuck in there for six months and yaddi yaddi yadda, but, really, right before Teer told John the bone-chilling news that she'd been telepathically stalking him for months and that she'd had visions since since was a child about him being "The One" (To Take Her Virginity) and that he'd lead them to Ascension and Ascend with them (and really, this is where he had to know she was off her rocker because he knows himself the best. Not to mention the fact that the minute she says "You're the one", he not only assumed but also hoped that she meant "The one to take my virginity/The one I will spend the rest of my life with". And he knew he probably wouldn't spend the rest of her life with her because Ascension's just not his thing, but he hoped that's what she meant because then he'd get some Space Tail (after which he'd abandon her and go back to Atlantis). Also, she's clearly delusional because she thinks he's The One who's not only destined to take her virginity but also destined to spend eternity with her. And what does he do? He bangs the hot alien while he's got the chance. It's almost taking advantage of a less intellectual (read: stupid) person.
You do realize the more you go on the less your statement that you don't hate Shep looses credibility right? First they admited that Epiphany didn't turn out as they wanted, personally I loved it. So you also know what he was thinking huh? Gee wish I was telepathic like you. They had a deep conection to each other and whether or not they had sex is a moot point. I really don't see where you get this bull from because they never showed nor mentioned or insinuated that they had sex.


While I hated those three episodes, they didn't make me hate the character of John Sheppard. Hell, I only considered it to be a small character flaw.
Really? COuld have fooled me.


Also, the Protectors of Sheppard will claim that these are just three (now four) little moments in time throughout 3 (now 3 + a few weeks) years of his life. However, why is it that out of every single member on Altantis John is the only guy who's ever gotten to make out with people (under amicable circumstances) or had scenes indicating he got laid?! And not just once but now four times. If you're claiming that John just made four misteps during his time on Atlantis, then you must also be claiming that no one else on Atlantis has had sex in 3+ years of time. It's a special thing when a single character Kirks themselves four times in three+ seasons.
First we don't know that he has had sex with anyone in the entire series. There is a remote possibility that he did in Tower but as I said remote. I see you put amicable circumstances however your point is he is the only character who has made out with someone. Well I disagree. Rodney made out with Katie in Duet not to mention Carson. And Wier has been shown kissing Simon, and Mike in SUnday. Still don't see your point.


And then the Suckfest that is Travelers happened (again, see my companion thread). I must be Teer, only better (because you know, I'm not delusional) because I knew what would happen the moment Laryn said "Be a shame to have to do too much damage" in reference to John's face.
Nope sorry you are as I completly disagree.


And happen it did, towards the end, Colonel Space Slut inexplicably (or is that "expectedly" given his track record) decides to start making out with Laryn right after telling a Wraith to run off to his Dart and go home. What the Hell was that Bimbo (and I'm referring to John here) thinking?! Here's the woman who'd tortured you earlier (multiple times), who'd threatened to kill you repteadly and you're currently in a hostile situation. Yet, the moment she ends up pressed up to you and starts batting her eyelashes at you, you decide it's a good idea to start making out?!
She led him on and he regretted it so sorry don't agree.


And how engrossed wasn't he in the make-out session if his reflexes were too slow to punch her in the face the minute he felt her yank the stunner out of his back pocket?! This was obviously a man who was expecting to get some Intergalactic Tail and therefore ignored all reason and let all his defenses drop.
SO I guess you've never been taken off guard by someone? *geesh* :rolleyes:




And really, this is after three years of experience with the galaxy, with people like the Chaya, Genii, Dagan and the Asurans that should've taught John to not start randomly trusting people randomly just because they have a high level of technology or are hot!

This was, of course, followed by John "omitting" some facts from his mission report/debriefing/whatever as the rest of the team didn't know he had decided on an impromptu make-out session. Good show, Colonel. You're pushing 40, who were once in command of the most important expedition in human history and you're supposedly a role model to your men but you have no problems lying when the truth would give you minus points in status (I very much doubt that the homophobic and partiarcal American Military would punish him for getting some Space Tail).

At first I was afraid, I was petrified when I learned that Sam would not only take over control of the city but also control of the military contingent. After Travelers, however, I'm glad.

Who knows what kind of disasters Colonel Space Slut could've created by randomly deciding to throw caution to the wind and start making out while the Wraith were on the loose!

I can't wait for the next time the writers decide to write a new episode to eventually be featured on a special DVD called Stargate Atlantis - The Major-Colonel-Whatever Space Slut Chronicles.

So what are you views of John's actions in these four episodes, but especially Travelers?

I'm trying to keep it positive[/b], [i]trying not to get upset[/b], I'm positive, but I'm really pissed at that [i]brunette. I really feel like slapping him to the floor, pulling his hair and calling him whore.
The above sentence is a reference to "Legally Blonde - the Musical"
*yawn*zzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzz oh sorry fell asleep. Sory this whining is old,tiresome and anoying.

Agent_Dark
October 29th, 2007, 05:20 PM
coming very close to the "t" word.

"Terrorist"?

Mattathias2.0
October 29th, 2007, 07:10 PM
To start with, I have no problem with promiscuous people. However, when their promiscuity is endaring themselves, others, they are in denial about it (that they are promiscuous) or whatever, I will use the term "Slut". Secondly, just because this colonel happens to be male doesn't mean he's any less of a slut (no, the word "Player" does not exist in my vocabulary).

Males tend to have almost twice as many mates (lovers, boyfriends, husbands, w/e) than females.


Also, it has been pointed out that as Sam is now a full bird Colonel, she's now also the Military Command and he's only the Second in Command. Listen carefully now, because this will probably be the only time I say this: I'm glad Sam came to Atlantis. I really am. Because that at least means John's no longer in command, a position I now see that he's clearly unfit for.

Weir was in command before Carter, and during John's brief tenure in command, no shannigans happened (the end of Lifeline, Ellis was in command).


I have never really disliked John. I am, after all, an avid supporter of McShep and I have downright defended him in discussions where his judgement and character have been put in question. And also, look at my avatar. He's not my favourite character on Atlantis, but he's not very far down on the list.

...


However, I had never felt pure hatred for him 'til 4x05 - Travelers. See my companion thread 4x05 - The Most Immature Episode Ever for more about my views on the episode, or as Katie Griffith would call it: Schmeppisode.

Pure hatred? I don't hate anybody or anything, and I don't bother feeling hate for fictional characters.


Let's walk down memory lane, shall we:
Exhibit A - Chaya - Despite what avid Sheppard Thunkers will deny, John showed extremely poor judgement in the handling of Chaya. Before anyone jumps in with "But he just wanted to be friendly with the people with the great technology", let's remind ourselves of the fact that John met Teer after GFI (Genii Fiasco I) and the botched Genii Invasion (GFII). Yet, what does he do when he meets her? He trust every single lie she spouts and not only takes her back to Atlantis, but also tells her what consoles do what (so that it'll be easier for the Genii to control the city should she turn out to be a Genii spy)! And on a side note, he goes on a picnic with her (obviously, this was beyond duty and "Being nice to the locals". This was date with a genuine Alien Priestess here), giving her some of their last supplies of certain delicacies (despite them being cut off from Earth). Yes... ha ha, how romantic. And what does he do when Rodney points out that she isn't to be trusted and that she's lying? He tells him to "Shut up".

Actually, I think Chaya was one of the better ones being Ascended and all. Not to mention she admitted she was posing as the Priestess so her people would accept her (because they did not know she was an ascended being). As far as I know, there is no account that Chaya and Shep did anything bad though.


Exhibit B - Princess Space Slut - In the endless Suckfest that is "The Tower"...

I have no response. Too long and the grammar ("Space Slut", "Suckfest") is not worth a decent response.


While I hated those three episodes, they didn't make me hate the character of John Sheppard. Hell, I only considered it to be a small character flaw.

I thought it was suppose to be comedic.


Also, the Protectors of Sheppard will claim that these are just three (now four) little moments in time throughout 3 (now 3 + a few weeks) years of his life. However, why is it that out of every single member on Altantis John is the only guy who's ever gotten to make out with people (under amicable circumstances) or had scenes indicating he got laid?! And not just once but now four times. If you're claiming that John just made four misteps during his time on Atlantis, then you must also be claiming that no one else on Atlantis has had sex in 3+ years of time. It's a special thing when a single character Kirks themselves four times in three+ seasons.

Wrong. There is Rodney/Cadman & Carson, Rodney & Katie Brown, and Weir & the guy in Sunday.


And then the Suckfest that is Travelers happened (again, see my companion thread). I must be Teer, only better (because you know, I'm not delusional) because I knew what would happen the moment Laryn said "Be a shame to have to do too much damage" in reference to John's face.

Beyond the Sheppard sexy girl thing, I thought the episode was quite good. Again, with the Grammar ("Suckfest").


And happen it did, towards the end, Colonel Space Slut inexplicably (or is that "expectedly" given his track record) decides to start making out with Laryn right after telling a Wraith to run off to his Dart and go home. What the Hell was that Bimbo (and I'm referring to John here) thinking?! Here's the woman who'd tortured you earlier (multiple times), who'd threatened to kill you repteadly and you're currently in a hostile situation. Yet, the moment she ends up pressed up to you and starts batting her eyelashes at you, you decide it's a good idea to start making out?!

I think the entire audience was probably thinking the same thing. Doesn't mean he shouldn't be in command though.


And how engrossed wasn't he in the make-out session if his reflexes were too slow to punch her in the face the minute he felt her yank the stunner out of his back pocket?! This was obviously a man who was expecting to get some Intergalactic Tail and therefore ignored all reason and let all his defenses drop.

...


Not to mention the fact that a Wraith had just been there! He could rush in and bumrush John at any moment (and how prepared would he have been to stun him?!) or maybe he sprinted back to the Dart and got some more stunners and would be back any second to bum-stun.

Confused.


And really, this is after three years of experience with the galaxy, with people like the Chaya, Genii, Dagan and the Asurans that should've taught John to not start randomly trusting people randomly just because they have a high level of technology or are hot!

Actually, I do think they trust each other, but she has to look out for her people.


This was, of course, followed by John "omitting" some facts from his mission report/debriefing/whatever as the rest of the team didn't know he had decided on an impromptu make-out session. Good show, Colonel. You're pushing 40, who were once in command of the most important expedition in human history and you're supposedly a role model to your men but you have no problems lying when the truth would give you minus points in status (I very much doubt that the homophobic and partiarcal American Military would punish him for getting some Space Tail).

...


At first I was afraid, I was petrified when I learned that Sam would not only take over control of the city but also control of the military contingent. After Travelers, however, I'm glad.

Petrified? A bit dramatic, aren't we?


Who knows what kind of disasters Colonel Space Slut could've created by randomly deciding to throw caution to the wind and start making out while the Wraith were on the loose!

I can't wait for the next time the writers decide to write a new episode to eventually be featured on a special DVD called Stargate Atlantis - The Major-Colonel-Whatever Space Slut Chronicles.

So what are you views of John's actions in these four episodes, but especially Travelers?

Not worth a response.


I'm trying to keep it positive[/b], [i]trying not to get upset[/b], I'm positive, but I'm really pissed at that [i]brunette. I really feel like slapping him to the floor, pulling his hair and calling him whore.
The above sentence is a reference to "Legally Blonde - the Musical"

So all in all, completely disagree with almost everything whether based on real facts, or entertainment purposes. And I find your use of "Suckfest" and other terms very non-civilized in discussion. The insults to Sheppard and the show also do not help your case as far as I am concerned.

morjana
October 29th, 2007, 09:15 PM
And mocking somebody for their opinions is very mature. :sheppardanime31:

If we were debating the the topic of, let's say, how many angels can dance on the head of a pin, then everyone's opinion would be just that -- their opinion, and worthy of discussion and respect.

HOWEVER, the topic that FAII has raised is, quite frankly, pure prejudice and bias, towards heterosexuals.

If, instead, FAII, had posted a topic bashing gays, would you be defending FAII's opinion as well?

We should at all realize by now that our sexuality is the result of many factors, but the number one factor is our DNA/gene coding.

The human race has had 10,000 years + of civilization/culture to allow us to ATTEMPT to control our basic instincts, but they're still there.

Also, FAII should practice tolerance.

As long as there are two consenting adults involved; and as long as children, animals, the recently deceased (of any species), and coercion (rape/extortion/blackmail/) are NOT involved, then what those two consenting adults do in their bedroom is their own business.

AND...being a minority in ANYTHING does NOT give the minority any mulligans in common courtesy.

Morjana

Elinor
October 30th, 2007, 01:54 AM
However, I had never felt pure hatred for him 'til 4x05 - Travelers.

Yikes! Pure hatred is a very deep, intense amount of energy to waste on a 'pretend' character!

Anyhoo...what was the title of this thread again? Oh yeah, why Cl. Sheppy shouldn't be in command. I like him just where he is and I have no problems with his behaviour at all. Well...apart from the fact that he won't take his shirt off and could be whumped a bit more!

http://www.clicksmilies.com/s1106/mittelgrosse/medium-smiley-124.gif

FallenAngelII
October 30th, 2007, 02:25 AM
Because it's not an accurate definition, you can't call a man a slut! Check the dictionary definition. If you want to still maintain that he's a slut, then your argument is flawed from the onset. Why would anyone go around saying that they are a slut and they sleep around. Sex is between two people, and not something that should be broadcast throughout the galaxy, so sorry, that may be my very prudish view, but who's business it it who you sleep with? So if Shep went round saying he bedded everything that moved, would that reinforce your argument, or alleviate the feelings you currently have about him and his 'slut status'?
John denies been someone who sleeps around or at least who flirts with anything female and mildly attractive on pretty much every other episode. Every single time Rodney accuses him of Kirkism, he denies it, vehemently.

Check any modern dictionary. We've come far in equality and the word "Slut" (sometimes "Manslut") can now be used even for men. No, they are not "Players". It's not a status symbol. They are sluts.

It would be misogyny to consider women who sleep around sluts and men who do the same players.


When has someone asked him if he was promiscuous? Do you go aroud telling all your friends/acquantances who you've slept with? It's considered bad form, and a tad tacky to be honest, and not very mature if you ask me. So the fact that he's actually not said anything just reinforces the fact of how mature he is, doesn't it? So he rolls his eyes at Rodney calling him Kirk... doesn't that eye roll in itself suggest something? Maybe a 'whatever'? He lied about sleeping with someone? OH how dare he keep something like that private. You mean he didn't even go into details about what positions he liked, or the fact that she took advantage after he let his guard down? Shame on him, didn't his mother ever teach him to share?
He is the second in command of Atlantis. When debriefing, he's got an obligation to include every single detail, even those that would embarass him, especially those. His weak points must be exposed so everyone else know.

What about next time some sexy alien chick decides to flirt her way to grab his gun or whatever? If Teyla knew about the Travelers-incident, she'd politely step in and trip said alien chick or something.

Professionals do not omit important facts in debriefings because they're embarassing.


It's not my double standards hon, it's the dictionary's take it up with them. :lol:
Dictionary.com/Wikipedia. Check them before speaking, "hon".


Wikipedia is not the be all and end all. Why not check the Oxford dictionary for the proper definition.. oh and shall I just quote from Dictionary. com since you won't?
(American Heritage Dictionary) * A person, especially a woman, considered sexually promiscuous.

Also, see manslut (http://www.urbandictionary.com/define.php?term=manslut). It's common daily English.


Actually no, the term slut is derogatory female term. Hell if a women sleeps around she's called a slut, if a man does it, he's a stud! ;) That's the difference. :lol:
Is that your actual opinion?


So, your being involved with the anti Sam thread was what? Bad judgement? ;)
I'm still anti-Sam. There is, however, now, one redeeming factor about her being on Atlantis.


Right, and if he didn't care about the two men who were about to be radiated he would have got the Aurora class. I personally think it's a disgracefull quality helping someone out when they've been near death, and expecting a bit of trust! Absolutely dispicable. The man should be shot for trying to do that... and you'd have preffered him to do what? Leave her there on the ground and locked her in... sorry that's not his style and being a 'fan of Sheppard's' as you said you were. you'd know that. :P
I think it was much more of a "I don't wanna die"-moment. He didn't wanna die of radiation as well. After all, these were men who had tortured him and threatened to kill him. They were basically enemy combatants.

I would have preferred for him to help her up and then pushed her away when she leaned in to make-out as it was obviously not the right time and place to do it.


Sheer dumb luck? So was it also sheer dumb luck when he got the Athosians on board to? Have you watched the ep again? Did you not see that they were in fact 'working together' when she shot him?
Because they had to. Because there were three Wraith on ship. Three Wraith who were by then either dead or about to leave the ship. Danger averted. And, hey, he was wrong. Larrin grabbed his gun and shot him and then imprisoned him.

And until he managed to talk her down by revealing the existence of the Asurans, she was gonna keep him locked up and bring him back with her.


He also trusted Teyla on their first meeting and brought the Athosians back... so, was that the wrong choice?
Because the Athosians were being culled by the Wraith. You do not leave people to their deaths. However, you do not unconditionally trust people just like that when you first meet them. Also, the Athosians did not receive grand tours of Atlantis complete with "this does this" and he didn't spend lots of time alone with a single one of them and then make out with them, allowing for them to take him hostage.


*giggles* A little nookie! hehehe nice to know the language has been toned down. :D Actually as I said before he rejected her advances.
* Original script had him confirm that he accepted
* Filmed, but cut scene had him reject her

The writers obviously thought twice about how it should go. That they even considered having him accept is inexcusable.


One kiss = making out? Right okay then? :rolleyes: As I said to you before, us women have wonderful feminine wiles that can make a fair few men crumble to their knees. What can I say, it's a gift!
You must have been watching the wrong episode. It was not just one chaste peck. Open mouths, repeated kissing, leaning of heads, possible tounges, wet, sloppy sounds.

They had just initiated a make-out session and in John's mind, he was getting some tail. The make-out session ended abruptly because Larrin was pretty fast on grabbing the stunner.


Right, so in CG, the Siege, The Return, Sateda, The Hive, shall I continue? In those eps he allowed his libido to make command decisions? That is what you're saying isn't it?
His libido has clouded his judgement countless times. Counting how many times it didn't is like trying to defend a killer for "all those people he didn't kill".


Oh no, I have no problem saying if he's wrong or out of line. So, once more your assumption of me and what I like has been shot down in flames, would you like to try again?
Then why are you so vehemently defending his actions in "Travelers". He obviously make a mistake and paid for it.


You're asking me if i'm male when I told you earlier that I had big boobs? :lol: Well, I suppose men can have big boobs. *gets a mirror and checks her plumbing* Nope I can definately say without a shadow of a doubt i'm female. Close FAII, but no cigar!
Yes, because I obviously put to mind everything every single person on this forum says about themselves.


So you're concerns are that his 'bedding' would result in the destruction of Atlantis... from one woman? Don't you think he'd rather die himself than allow that to happen? There's this little thing called integrity, ya know!
It's not that he'd intentionally let Atlantis be destroyed. But his libido might cloud his judgement, making him go for that Alien Tail at the wrong moments, allowing Atlantis in turn to be destroyed because he was too busy getting tail. This episode proves that.


He did put his trust in her, they were working together, what would that suggest to you? I'm not interested in Kathy Griffin tbh, her thoughts and feelings have got nothing to do with this debate.
Yes, and he was wrong, was he not?


Spidey senses are 'gut feelings' when you work in certain situations, you rely on your gut, that's what i'm talking about. Most of the time you're right, but it's not falliable. However, there comes a point where trust comes into play. And sometimes it takes the braver person to make that first move and lower your guard as you never know where it can lead. In this case it may have lead to a tentative alliance... so how is that a bad thing?
It might have lead to a tentative alliance?! Oh, yes. I want an alliance with someone so I'll make out with them and then maybe have sex with them. That's the perfect way to start an alliance!

No, he wanted some tail and he thought she was cool and on board. Obviously his gut was wrong.


Again with the stalker stuff! Because she had visions she was a stalker? Little girl? Hardly! So he slept with her, being with her for 6 months is not exactly jumping into bed with the first woman he set eyes on. :lol:
She said that she'd been following him with her mind. She didn't randomly get hit with visions of him. Every single time he left the cloister, she used her powers to stalk him.

She was delusional and he knew it. In her mind, he'd spend eternity with her as an Ascended being and he knew fully well that would never happen (because he knows himself best), yet he lead her on because he wanted sex.

FallenAngelII
October 30th, 2007, 02:33 AM
Here we see Weir came up with the idea of the tour on her own and is annoyed only that Sheppard had the same idea and promised it to Chaya before consulting her.
It does not matter if Elizabeth came up with the idea as well. John, blinded by his attraction for Chaya (literally at first sight), came up with the idea that she should come to Atlantis and receive a full tour (including important information that would be dangerous in enemy hands) without consulting anyone, not even Elizabeth.


Here Mckay offers to help show her advanced systems and Sheppard walks off without him not because he wants to be alone with her, but because Mckay was shooting off his mouth to her on the planet and Sheppard had to order him back to the jumper before he blew it.
He declined anyone following them and walked around alone with Chaya for most of her stay on Atlantis because he wanted to flirt some more. Smart people would at least have brought a marine or two for security. I doubt even diplomatic leaders are allowed to wander around alone with a single escort who's too smitten to react if they decided to drop-kick them and grab their weapon.


Here Mckay references the Genii situation to Weir and despite it she still allows Chaya to tour the city. She of course would've been aware that Sheppard was showing her the city's systems. You have to realize how close they were to the Wraith attack at this point and how they really thought they would lose the city and had to find some place to escape to. Gaining her trust was a priority over protecting a doomed city.
Why would she? John hadn't consulted with anyone or told anyone of his intentions before.

This episode came two episodes before "The Brotherhood", which they found out the Wraith were coming, so that's no reason as well.


Here Sheppard tells Telya that Weir wanted Chaya to see everything and Telya, realizing Sheppard likes her, calls him on how showing her a view of the city at night is doing what Weir wanted.
See everything, not hear about what systems do what. Or about where they're from, who woke up the Wraith, how they're stuck in this galaxy. Dangerous information should it ever reach the Wraith, Genii or any of their hidden enemies.


Here Weir is defending Chaya despite all the evidence Mckay is building against her (notice it's not Sheppard who is blinding doing so - Sheppard yells at Mckay later on but only because Mckay is handling it in his usual loud mouth manner).
John would not have yelled at Rodney if he hadn't been too infatuated to see reason, to see that there was something suspicious with this woman (Carson pointed out that she was too healthy).

What Elizabeth did as well has no bearing on John's behaviour. It's like saying "Well, someone else also killed someone today, so it's OK if I do so as well". They were both wrong.


*Chaya had an X-ray so there was no way she could've been hiding a weapon and they likely patted her down before then.
*Sheppard telling her about Earth wasn't privilaged. The Wraith already knew about it so it didn't matter who he told at this point.
*Him telling her that they could not return to Earth was an important part of getting her to realize just how badly they would've needed her sanctuary.
* She could've hidden the weapon and drawn it the minute they walked into Atlantis. John trusted her completely and had her accompany them even before consulting with Elizabeth (although she must've given them permission)
* That the Wraith knew does not mean that everyone else in the Pegasus galaxy knew. The Genii finding this out? They'd redouble their efforts to take over Atlantis and then gating all of their people to Earth.
* Nonetheless was that important information that would be dangerous in the hands of their enemies

FallenAngelII
October 30th, 2007, 02:47 AM
And Weir did right bringing the Wraith, Michael and the Ladon into Atlantis? You know there comes a time when you have to trust someone. Sheppard trusted her, it turns out his instincts (read: spidy sense) was correct... wasn't it?
As you actually blaming Elizabeth for "Alliance"? They had no choice. It was either "ally" themselves or have every single hive ship in the galaxy come and blow them up. It wasn't Elizabeth's decision to make. Her decision was "choose the least of two evils". Ladon was under strict guard his entire stay. If he'd moved a muscle the wrong way, he'd be toast. He didn't get a full tour of Atlantis complete with what systems do what or received priviliged information nor did Elizabeth skip off on a one-on-one with him without any guards around.

Sheppard's instincts were wrong. She was lying about pretty much everything. It doesn't matter if her lies were harmless. John had been so blinded he trusted everything she said, but she was lying the entire time. About who she were, about Athar, about how the "device" works, why she came with them, about her maybe changing her mind. Pretty much everything she'd told him were lies. Harmless (to the Atlantis expedition) lies, but lies nonetheless.

Now she'd been some evil mastermind planning to take over Atlantis, John would've been equally blinded and trusted everything she'd said. The problem is not that she lied and that her lies were harmless. The problem was how John allowed his libido to overtake all of his other senses and trusted her so completely.


How was she sneaky, because she didn't reveal who she was right away? Do the Atlantis expedition when they go off world? And when did he show her how the control systems worked? Well, she was the spokesperson for her people, so would you rather he spoke to the 'monk' who knew diddly squat? Go straight to the source I say! So what if she wanted more? *snort* A diplomatic scandal? How on earth do you figure that one out, and hon, lets stick to what we know rather than hypothosising all the coulda, woulda, shoulda stuff? Yes?
If you strike up a relationship with an Alien Priestess and make out with her and then dump her (because there was no way she was coming to Atlantis to stay and John wouldn't relocate to Proculus), a lot of locals would take offense on him defiling their priestess and then running off.

She was sneaky because she lied about pretty much everything. See above.


Yep, so what's wrong with flirting? I'm not sure what you mean or where you're going with the coersion thing.
It's inappropriate for a man of his age and position to constantly be doing so when it can get them into trouble. Flirt with the wrong person, get your team thrown into jail. Flirt and Kirk at the wrong times, your team gets killed while you're getting Tail. It hasn't happened yet, but John keeps putting himself in positions where it could.


How many men don't think about sex, or wouldn't think about it, if it was someone they fancied, or if they were throwing themselves at them? Show of hands here please. :D Don't be shy. I'm not Larrin, I don't bite. :P The thing is he didn't sleep with her. So what does that suggest?
That the writers got cold feet and rewrote the episode? Men think about sex, so do women. I think about sex. I like sex. But as the military commander of Atlantis, I wouldn't go around thinking about it while on missions or in hostile situations where I might die at any time.


I never said his judgement was off regarding Larrin. He trusted her (after they worked together and supported each other) He thought they were on a mutual level of trust and it turns out they weren't. If you're asking me If I think he shouldn't have kissed her in that sort of situation, the answer is yes. He should have waited until they got to his cell... at least there was a bed there. ;) However Shep did not kirk! Kirking suggests one motive, and I think that he had more things to concentraite on than having a quickie.
I'm strictly going by the Rodney-definition of Kirking. But that's not even the important thing here. John's lapse in judgement cost the Atlantis expedition an Aurora-class ship.


I hate to break it to you, hon, but Mary Sue's are perfect. Shep is not perfect. No one is perfect and people make mistakes, it's called being human.
"The definition today has widened considerably to encompass most clichés found in fiction"


Nope, that was her gift and it was something she used with everyone including the village, so nope not stalking. Do you want to get into the defination of staking to?
When did she say that she telepathically followed every single villager every single day?

"TEER: I knew. (John looks at her.) I was following your journey in my mind. I was with you since you left the Cloister."


Not necessarily and how is that Sheppard's fault, or that he shouldn't be a commander because she's been waiting for him? Did he ask her to? So she saved herself? What's your point? That this indicates stalkering? Because she had a vision that she'd be with someone who would help her and her people?
She said the following about her visions:
* John was the one to take her virginity (something John's dirty mind hoped for)
* John was the one who would help them Ascend
* John would Ascend with them and spend eternity with her

She's clearly delusional here. She's not just looking for a little sex with the man she's been waiting for. She thinks he's destined to spend eternity with her. She thinks he'd gonna ascend with them.

John knows himself best so he knows he would never Ascend. Yet he takes advantage of her delusion and has sex with her because it felt good, intending very much on leaving her first chance he got, getting her hopes up.

Up until the very end, she thought he'd Ascend with her.


Tonnes of action? If 3 (if we're counting all of them is tonnes in 4 years) then sorry not slutty by my standards, yours however may differ.
He's the only one we see get action. The writers are trying to make him look like a stud.

FallenAngelII
October 30th, 2007, 02:52 AM
*yawn* Your constant griping is putting me to sleep because it's nothing new. YOu are finding anything you can to bash this show and coming very close to the "t" word.
Then don't read it. I do not make threads to praise great parts of the show. No good discussion ever comes out of 29 post praising how well the expedition handled a certain situation. I create threads where meaningful discussion will arise.


Uh sorry you have this backwards. Rodney was the one that was being an ass the entire ep and one of my least fav Rodney eps I try to ingore him in that one. Chaya wasn't lying nor was she untrustworthy she was an Ancient who was punished for helping her people. SHE fell in love with him. She was hiding her true nature but not lying as you suggest. I do not see your point of view on this one at all.
She was untrustworthy and lying. Everything she'd told the expedition about herself and Athar were lies. She was untrustworthy because she was too healthy, as Carson pointed out.

She didn't fall in love with him. She was infatuated, just like John was infatuated with her... and trusted every single one of her lies.


Ok I do agree that was a bit extreme and while the ep isn't the best of season 2 it is not that bad. As to the showtime comment that makes absolutly no sense as there was ONE instance of nudity.
If this was Showtime, the nudity would've been frontal.


So by your pov it's wrong for him to have sex once in a while? Who cares if they did or not the thing here is, it was a setup for them to control the planet for generations to come with his superior genes. So yes I would defend him.
He should've said flat no. And we should've seen it instead of leaving it ambiguous.


You do realize the more you go on the less your statement that you don't hate Shep looses credibility right? First they admited that Epiphany didn't turn out as they wanted, personally I loved it. So you also know what he was thinking huh? Gee wish I was telepathic like you. They had a deep conection to each other and whether or not they had sex is a moot point. I really don't see where you get this bull from because they never showed nor mentioned or insinuated that they had sex.
"They had a deep connection with each other"? O... K... They didn't insinuate they had sex?

(Not direct quotes)
Teer: I've seen in my visions you're the One.
John: The one what?
Teer: The one who leads us to Ascension.
John: Oh, I'd hoped you meant something else.
Teer: I saw that too. Tonight.
John: *smiles*

Yah... sooooo not having sex.


First we don't know that he has had sex with anyone in the entire series. There is a remote possibility that he did in Tower but as I said remote. I see you put amicable circumstances however your point is he is the only character who has made out with someone. Well I disagree. Rodney made out with Katie in Duet not to mention Carson. And Wier has been shown kissing Simon, and Mike in SUnday. Still don't see your point.
Rewatch Epiphany. Elizabeth gave Mike a chaste kiss. Elizabeth was also in a devoted relationship with Simon, so it wasn't some kind of slutty behaviour.

Rodney did not make out with Katie or Carson. One close-mouthed kiss is not making out, although the one with Katie lasted pretty long. Those were both Cadman forcing Rodney's body to do her bidding.


SO I guess you've never been taken off guard by someone? *geesh* :rolleyes:
A smart man would not have put himself in that position. John did wrong and paid for it because he let his libido and dirty mind get the best of him, despite her being a ruthless killer (should the need arise).

FallenAngelII
October 30th, 2007, 02:57 AM
Males tend to have almost twice as many mates (lovers, boyfriends, husbands, w/e) than females.
Yeah... like this has anything to do with anything. There are many other males on Atlantis.


Weir was in command before Carter, and during John's brief tenure in command, no shannigans happened (the end of Lifeline, Ellis was in command).
We don't know for sure. And just because nothing happened doesn't mean John might not endanger himself and the expedition yet again sometime in the future because he's chasing Alien Tail.


Actually, I think Chaya was one of the better ones being Ascended and all. Not to mention she admitted she was posing as the Priestess so her people would accept her (because they did not know she was an ascended being). As far as I know, there is no account that Chaya and Shep did anything bad though.
She only admitted this after she had revealed herself as an Ascended being to John. There was no point in lying anymore.

Before that, she'd lied to John about everything and John had believed her.


Wrong. There is Rodney/Cadman & Carson, Rodney & Katie Brown, and Weir & the guy in Sunday.
Not a single instance was a make-out session.


Beyond the Sheppard sexy girl thing, I thought the episode was quite good. Again, with the Grammar ("Suckfest").
The episode went downhill from the first double entendre/sexual innuendo and I just knew by then that the episode would suck. But it didn't become a Suckfest 'til they made out.


I think the entire audience was probably thinking the same thing. Doesn't mean he shouldn't be in command though.
Oh really? Note all of the posts defending him.


Actually, I do think they trust each other, but she has to look out for her people.
He trusted her. She betrayed him. His trust was clearly misplaced.


So all in all, completely disagree with almost everything whether based on real facts, or entertainment purposes. And I find your use of "Suckfest" and other terms very non-civilized in discussion. The insults to Sheppard and the show also do not help your case as far as I am concerned.
"Suckfest" is a reference to Buffy the Vampire Slayer. Look it up.

"Non-civilized"? I am not insulting you or any user on Gateworld nor am I directly insulting the writers' characters. I'm pointing out character flaws and insulting a fictional character. If you're too blind in your love for said character to have a meaningful discussion, then that's your choice.

FallenAngelII
October 30th, 2007, 02:59 AM
HOWEVER, the topic that FAII has raised is, quite frankly, pure prejudice and bias, towards heterosexuals.
Prejudiced towards heterosexuals you say? I wouldn't care less if John was gay and did the same thing with guys. I don't watch Torchwood because from what I hear, Jack Harkness is doing the same thing, only worse, with both genders.


If, instead, FAII, had posted a topic bashing gays, would you be defending FAII's opinion as well?
Where did I bash heterosexuality? I am, however, condemning letting your libido get the best out of you at the wrong times. I couldn't care less if John had little Kirk-moments (if they were limited) durings times where there wasn't impending danger.


As long as there are two consenting adults involved; and as long as children, animals, the recently deceased (of any species), and coercion (rape/extortion/blackmail/) are NOT involved, then what those two consenting adults do in their bedroom is their own business.
There are circumstances. Delusional Teer, Lying Chaya, Betraying Larrin, Gene-hungry Maara.

talyn2k1
October 30th, 2007, 04:48 AM
This thread seems to be getting a bit waylaid so I shall attempt to get it back on track.

imho, John and any other character on Atlantis can cop off with whatever aliens they like as long as it does not interfere with their duties.
In SG-1, both Jack and Daniel had their fair share of tail in the first few seasons and they generally ended up putting their lives in danger. This was generally through women they originally believed to be trustworthy betraying them, which imho they can't be blamed for.

Now I can't speak for any of the other episodes where Shep got lucky as they tend to be real yawners from my perspective, but in Travellers Shep had been taken hostage by a group of people commanded by a woman who is reputed to throw people out of airlocks and repeatedly betrays him in the course of a day or two, and he STILL lets down all his defenses for a quick snog, thus allowing her to get his weapon and take back the Ancient Warship that he has just stolen from them.

When Daniel and Jack got in trouble because of their women it was generally unexpected circumstances (I may be wrong, I`m just working off the top of my head here) but Shep clearly couldn't trust her and was a complete fool to drop his guard so she could steal his weapon.

I'm not against characters copping off with random aliens, honestly I couldn't really care less about anything remotely resembling shipping/slashing, etc. But it just makes the character look stupid when he lets his guard down for a quick snog with a clearly untrustworthy woman and then ends up getting shot.

If PTB want Shep to get lucky on occasion, that's fine. But atleast make sure its not his fault when he gets double-crossed.

Xaeden
October 30th, 2007, 07:10 AM
Because they had to. Because there were three Wraith on ship. Three Wraith who were by then either dead or about to leave the ship. Danger averted. And, hey, he was wrong. Larrin grabbed his gun and shot him and then imprisoned him.

And until he managed to talk her down by revealing the existence of the Asurans, she was gonna keep him locked up and bring him back with her.

Because the Athosians were being culled by the Wraith. You do not leave people to their deaths. However, you do not unconditionally trust people just like that when you first meet them. Also, the Athosians did not receive grand tours of Atlantis complete with "this does this" and he didn't spend lots of time alone with a single one of them and then make out with them, allowing for them to take him hostage.

For a better example watch Common Ground. He bonded a bit with the Wraith who fed on him and he helped him out a little more than he had to in the escape. This was the same situation - He thought he bonded with Lirran in saving her life and perhaps gained a new ally despite what happened previously. It had nothing to do with her being female, he's just a trusting kind of guy. The only difference between those two situations is that the Wraith was nice enough to return the favor right away where as Lirran needed a little bit of convincing.


It does not matter if Elizabeth came up with the idea as well. John, blinded by his attraction for Chaya (literally at first sight), came up with the idea that she should come to Atlantis and receive a full tour (including important information that would be dangerous in enemy hands) without consulting anyone, not even Elizabeth.

There isn't a shred of evidence that he liked Chaya from the start. His interest in her developed as they spent time in Atlantis, but like Weir he knew what the importance of that sanctuary meant to them and so he tried to do what was best for his people. As for not consulting anyone you have to realize that this was season 1 where he and Weir did not yet see eye to eye on who should make what decisions. In fact, this was right after Hot Zone so that little quip where Weir said; "Of course he did," in response to him promising to give Chaya a tour before consulting her was a great way to show that there may have still been some tension between them despite the agreement they had at the end of the episode (change does not happen overnight).


He declined anyone following them and walked around alone with Chaya for most of her stay on Atlantis because he wanted to flirt some more. Smart people would at least have brought a marine or two for security. I doubt even diplomatic leaders are allowed to wander around alone with a single escort who's too smitten to react if they decided to drop-kick them and grab their weapon.

Weir did the same thing - Mckay wanted her to keep an extra eye on her and she ignored him (again you have to realize this was season 1 where Mckay wasn't taken as seriously). Was she smitten with Chaya as well or was she trying to not show their guest that she mistrusted her and thus give her cause to mistrust them?


Why would she? John hadn't consulted with anyone or told anyone of his intentions before.

This episode came two episodes before "The Brotherhood", which they found out the Wraith were coming, so that's no reason as well.

They found out the Wraith were coming in Poisoning the Well, they just didn't know exactly when. Steve specifically told them that all their Hives woke up and were comming for them once they revisited their feeding grounds and got their strength back. Watch Sanctuary again and you'll see the references to them knowing they were doomed if they didn't do something (they needed a ZPM or at the least a planet to escape to since they couldn't get back to Earth).


See everything, not hear about what systems do what. Or about where they're from, who woke up the Wraith, how they're stuck in this galaxy. Dangerous information should it ever reach the Wraith, Genii or any of their hidden enemies.

You really think Weir wouldn't have been made aware of what Sheppard was doing and complained if she thought he was stepping over the line? And for the record Sg-1 showed Linea (the destroyer of worlds) how their computers worked and it turned out badly for them. Which you may use as all the more reason to not trust other people, but I use it as a reason to show the trusting nature of many of the people in the Stargate program that has nothing do with with romantic feelings. There are times when this works in their favor and there are times where it does not. In this case it seemed worth the risk. Bad idea or not though, Sheppard did not do it because of any relationship that later developed no more than Mckay was willing to show her the advanced systems or Weir allowed it.


John would not have yelled at Rodney if he hadn't been too infatuated to see reason, to see that there was something suspicious with this woman (Carson pointed out that she was too healthy).

What Elizabeth did as well has no bearing on John's behaviour. It's like saying "Well, someone else also killed someone today, so it's OK if I do so as well". They were both wrong.

No, John would not have yelled at Mckay if Mckay handled the situation better. He even said himself he was not a sensitive person in situations like that and kept flapping his mouth off more so. He started this kind of behavior back on the planet right in front of her and almost ruined any chances they had with getting her help. He had an issue with crossing the line and thus Sheppard was telling him to "Not go there." Mind you though, Mckay's ramblings to Sheppard came after the tour and was at the point where Weir was trying to trade their spiritual knowledge with her so the time Sheppard spent with her at this point was totally personal.

As for what Weir did, it most certainly does. You keep going on about how Sheppard did something wrong and yet there is no evidence that he made any decisions differently than Weir. From my perspective he did everything he did for his people and while he was spending time with her they developed a relationship. That was after he led her around and showed her Atlantis' systems. Your only excuse for why that might not be the case was because that was seemingly dangerous, but Weir had no problem with any of it either and last I checked she wasn't in love with Chaya. And btw, he really liked her - He wasn't just trying to sleep with her and move on.


* She could've hidden the weapon and drawn it the minute they walked into Atlantis. John trusted her completely and had her accompany them even before consulting with Elizabeth (although she must've given them permission)

You realize that marines run to the gate whenever the wormhole activates, right?


* That the Wraith knew does not mean that everyone else in the Pegasus galaxy knew. The Genii finding this out? They'd redouble their efforts to take over Atlantis and then gating all of their people to Earth.

That makes no sense. The Genii do not have a power source to gate them to Earth nor do they know that they need one and they have no understanding of an 8 symbol address. More so why would they care to gate them back? Because they would get trapped there and be out of their way (like they wouldn't be out of their way just as easily if they were killed)? Sheppard never said they couldn't get reinforcements from Earth, just that it was one way. And for the record Beckett was talking to her about what he knew happened to the Ancients before Sheppard said anything to her and he told her that some Ancients returned to Earth. You're going out on a bit of a limb here.

BECKETT: Well...some returned to Earth after the war with the Wraith. That much we know. But we also know that some of them ascended.

SHEPPARD: Well not simply. *head up some stairs* We knew going into it that it was probably going to be a one way trip...but we thought what we would find here would be worth the risk.

It gets better. Here's a quote from; The Storm...

KOLYA: You believe your people -- who are not even of this galaxy -- are closer to the Ancients than we are? Your arrogance is astounding. We will take this city, we will mount a defence, and we will win -- with or without your help, Doctor Weir.

Remind me again how knowing the name "Earth" (which cannot be found in any Ancient database since they had a different name for it) is any different than their enemy knowing that they are from another galaxy?

FallenAngelII
October 30th, 2007, 07:57 AM
For a better example watch Common Ground. He bonded a bit with the Wraith who fed on him and he helped him out a little more than he had to in the escape. This was the same situation - He thought he bonded with Lirran in saving her life and perhaps gained a new ally despite what happened previously. It had nothing to do with her being female, he's just a trusting kind of guy. The only difference between those two situations is that the Wraith was nice enough to return the favor right away where as Lirran needed a little bit of convincing.
John is not the trusty kind of guy. He's quite suspicious. He just let his guard down.

The Wraith in "Common Ground" was desperate and really needed John. Larrin did not.


There isn't a shred of evidence that he liked Chaya from the start.
Rewatch the episode:
* He was "stunned" when he first saw her and her radiant beauty
* When she said she'd make some tea (or have someone do it, I can't remember), he said "I hoped you'd say that" with a "charming" little smile
* He was mightily annoyed with Rodney and told him to stay out of it so he could spend time alone with her. While Rodney can be quite whiney and rude, John doesn't tell him to stay away from someone. In fact, that's the only time John as far as to keep Rodney away at all costs... because he liked her.


His interest in her developed as they spent time in Atlantis, but like Weir he knew what the importance of that sanctuary meant to them and so he tried to do what was best for his people. As for not consulting anyone you have to realize that this was season 1 where he and Weir did not yet see eye to eye on who should make what decisions. In fact, this was right after Hot Zone so that little quip where Weir said; "Of course he did," in response to him promising to give Chaya a tour before consulting her was a great way to show that there may have still been some tension between them despite the agreement they had at the end of the episode (change does not happen overnight).
Still very poor judgement, especially after the fiascos with the Genii. And he liked her from the start. See the "stunned"-part.


Weir did the same thing - Mckay wanted her to keep an extra eye on her and she ignored him (again you have to realize this was season 1 where Mckay wasn't taken as seriously). Was she smitten with Chaya as well or was she trying to not show their guest that she mistrusted her and thus give her cause to mistrust them?
She wanted the technology. John was, however, smitten and took Chaya on a picnic. You cannot deny that.


They found out the Wraith were coming in Poisoning the Well, they just didn't know exactly when. Steve specifically told them that all their Hives woke up and were comming for them once they revisited their feeding grounds and got their strength back. Watch Sanctuary again and you'll see the references to them knowing they were doomed if they didn't do something (they needed a ZPM or at the least a planet to escape to since they couldn't get back to Earth).
Yes, John took her on a picnic and kissed her all in the name of securing a new home for them.

If push came to shove, they could've hid out on the Kid Planet for a while. It's not like they were out of options, they were just looking for a better one. To endanger the entire city by bringing in an unknown person who was obviously lying (what with the energy burst which had been established as "Not possibly a natural phenomena) and who was obviously hiding something (in Carson's words, she was "too healthy) and giving them a great tour of everything of the city including what consoles did what (alone with them) and telling them some highly classified information isn't exactly something you'd do normally, even under desperate circumstances and must I remind you again of the Genii. Obviously he wanted to spend time alone with her.

While she was most probably not a Genii spy, she could've been just as bad as the Genii, friendly at first but with a hidden agenda. John ignored Rodney's input without a second thought. Why? Not just because Rodney wasn't taken as seriously back then, but because he was obviously smitted (see stunned-part) and didn't want to think she was lying about everything.


You really think Weir wouldn't have been made aware of what Sheppard was doing and complained if she thought he was stepping over the line?
John was giving Chaya a tour of the city alone, without anyone else around. How the Hell was Elizabeth supposed to know exactly what John was and wasn't telling her?


And for the record Sg-1 showed Linea (the destroyer of worlds) how their computers worked and it turned out badly for them. Which you may use as all the more reason to not trust other people, but I use it as a reason to show the trusting nature of many of the people in the Stargate program that has nothing do with with romantic feelings.
That was years ago. And John should've read that file and known how badly it can end up with you show someone unknown around your facility and give them a full tour of everything. This just makes it even worse.

Smart people learn from the mistakes of others as well.


There are times when this works in their favor and there are times where it does not. In this case it seemed worth the risk. Bad idea or not though, Sheppard did not do it because of any relationship that later developed no more than Mckay was willing to show her the advanced systems or Weir allowed it.
Elizabeth and Rodney were prepared to go to great lengths for an alliance. John was just prepared to go even further and did. It's obvious he was smitten the moment he laid eyes on her (see beginning of episode). And it's obvious he did far more than strictly necessary.

Besides, Rodney was only prepared to give her the tour at the beginning but later became suspicious of her while John was taking her alone on one-on-one picnics and one-on-one tours of the city.


No, John would not have yelled at Mckay if Mckay handled the situation better. He even said himself he was not a sensitive person in situations like that and kept flapping his mouth off more so. He started this kind of behavior back on the planet right in front of her and almost ruined any chances they had with getting her help. He had an issue with crossing the line and thus Sheppard was telling him to "Not go there." Mind you though, Mckay's ramblings to Sheppard came after the tour and was at the point where Weir was trying to trade their spiritual knowledge with her so the time Sheppard spent with her at this point was totally personal.
It's all big ball of wax. And John knew about Rodney's suspicions all throughout the episode, but swallowed all of Chaya's lies without question and never questioned her. Also, must I repeat myself? Too much information, too thourough a tour and, most importantly, he was almost always alone with her. Had she been Larrian, she could've just overpowered him and stolen his gun and then where would we be with her holding John hostage?


As for what Weir did, it most certainly does. You keep going on about how Sheppard did something wrong and yet there is no evidence that he made any decisions differently than Weir. From my perspective he did everything he did for his people and while he was spending time with her they developed a relationship. That was after he led her around and showed her Atlantis' systems. Your only excuse for why that might not be the case was because that was seemingly dangerous, but Weir had no problem with any of it either and last I checked she wasn't in love with Chaya. And btw, he really liked her - He wasn't just trying to sleep with her and move on.
John did a whole lot more than Elizabeth was prepared to do. And you really think he would've abandoned his position for her and go back to Proculus to live with her? She's their High Priestess of Athar, so it's a given she couldn't possibly have moved to Atlantis.


You realize that marines run to the gate whenever the wormhole activates, right?
You realize that having John as a hostage is a powerful tool of negotiations, right?


That makes no sense. The Genii do not have a power source to gate them to Earth nor do they know that they need one and they have no understanding of an 8 symbol address. More so why would they care to gate them back? Because they would get trapped there and be out of their way (like they wouldn't be out of their way just as easily if they were killed)? Sheppard never said they couldn't get reinforcements from Earth, just that it was one way. And for the record Beckett was talking to her about what he knew happened to the Ancients before Sheppard said anything to her and he told her that some Ancients returned to Earth. You're going out on a bit of a limb here.
It's important information. Anyone knowing the Atlantis expedition cannot go back would know that if they were to disappear, they'd still be around somewhere in Pegasus and keep looking for them.

It's classified information and should not be shared with unknown people.


[I]BECKETT: Well...some returned to Earth after the war with the Wraith. That much we know. But we also know that some of them ascended.
Yes, she would've been able to make so much use of this information if she was an enemy.


Remind me again how knowing the name "Earth" (which cannot be found in any Ancient database since they had a different name for it) is any different than their enemy knowing that they are from another galaxy?
John had, earlier in the episode, told Chaya that they were new to the galaxy (he'd also explained what a galaxy was).

Niteshadow
October 30th, 2007, 08:06 AM
I've made three threads in my entire life where the theme is complaining about John Sheppard. All three happened to spring out of the same episode.

then maybe you should not watch that epsidoe again....you seem to not like it.

I take it you're a heterosexual male and therefore very much appreciate John Sheppard showing off his Kirkness by yet again get some Space Tail (to the detriment of the expedition). I assure you that a lot of women (and non heterosexual men) do not appreciate said plotlines and misuse of women.

damn right i'm heterosexual i do like boobs. ;)

would you be happier of there did have a gay character in the show that you could relate to. i think so of the probelms that people have with you is becuase there don't see your view point becuase there are heterosexual??

thus soemtimes leaves to the conflicts

FallenAngelII
October 30th, 2007, 08:08 AM
damn right i'm heterosexual i do like boobs. ;)

would you be happier of there did have a gay character in the show that you could relate to. i think so of the probelms that people have with you is becuase there don't see your view point becuase there are heterosexual??

thus soemtimes leaves to the conflicts
I would be happier if we kept the Kirking out of the show. I do not watch "Torchwood" despite it being lauded as a great sci-fi show.

Why? Because the character Captain Jack Harkness is bisexual and does John's thing, only more of it and with both genders. I could care less if John was gay and romancing men instead. It's bad writing and bad TV.

prion
October 30th, 2007, 08:48 AM
I would be happier if we kept the Kirking out of the show. I do not watch "Torchwood" despite it being lauded as a great sci-fi show.

Why? Because the character Captain Jack Harkness is bisexual and does John's thing, only more of it and with both genders. I could care less if John was gay and romancing men instead. It's bad writing and bad TV.

If folksl want to see characters falling into bed with each other, that's why networks create shows like Desperate Housewives, and populate the daytime with soaps. SGA is an action/adventure/scifi program, and the purpose of those programs is action/adventure/scifi. I don't get Torchwood as I don't get BBC America (darn darn darn) but since I didn't like the character at all when he was on DOCTOR WHO, it's no loss to me.

Basically, if Shep is gonna 'kirk', then at least let's not the end result of that be losing alien technology. That's my biggest gripe. had the ship but because of the kiss, lost the ship. Stupid is as stupid does ;)

Xaeden
October 30th, 2007, 09:27 AM
John is not the trusty kind of guy. He's quite suspicious. He just let his guard down.

The Wraith in "Common Ground" was desperate and really needed John. Larrin did not.

Actually she did. Neither of them had a weapon and the Wraith were making their way to the control room. Had they not worked together the Wraith would've gotten their hands on the ship and that was something neither of them could allow. Then there's the issue of John saving her life twice - I would count that as her needing his help.


Rewatch the episode:
* He was "stunned" when he first saw her and her radiant beauty
* When she said she'd make some tea (or have someone do it, I can't remember), he said "I hoped you'd say that" with a "charming" little smile
* He was mightily annoyed with Rodney and told him to stay out of it so he could spend time alone with her. While Rodney can be quite whiney and rude, John doesn't tell him to stay away from someone. In fact, that's the only time John as far as to keep Rodney away at all costs... because he liked her.

He was being nice with the tea thing. You look too deeply into things. As far as ordering Rodney back, pay attention to how he was acting:

MCKAY: More importantly it's protected by that weapon of yours...

CHAYA: Weapon? I'm aware of no such thing on Proculus.

SHEPPARD: *glances at McKay* You sure about that?

CHAYA: Yes.

MCKAY: Oh please...

SHEPPARD: *whispers* Rodney. Best behavior.

MCKAY: This is as good as it gets, Major. Chaya, the only reason we are alive is because of a powerful energy weapon that emanated somewhere on the surface of this planet, it destroyed the ships that were shooting at us. That weapon is what's keeping the Wraith away.

...

SHEPPARD: Chaya...there are a lot of people who are just like...you and me...who are in need because of the Wraith...What you have here-what Othara has provided you with here is a very rare thing. *McKay rolls eyes* but we have a lot to offer too...That's what friends do they share. I think we could help each other.

...

TEYLA: Perhaps Chaya is just unaware of the weapon's existence.

FORD: Or she knows...and she wants to keep it a secret from us.

SHEPPARD: Doesn't strike me as the lying type either. *McKay snorts, silence*.........Ok let's just see what...Othara has to say. *Sits*

MCKAY: So...pay no attention to the man behind the curtain hmm?

SHEPPARD: Exactly. *lies down*

....

MCKAY: And you really had to chant all that time to come up with that.

SHEPPARD: McKay.

TEYLA: Is there any way we can ask Othara to reconsider?

CHAYA: Othara understands and sympathizes. These Wraith are a scourge among our stars but she has to place the lives of her people first.

MCKAY: Well *stands* I think we both knew what you were going to say long before you even went in there.

CHAYA: *Not a happy camper* We prayed for Othara's guidance.

MCKAY: And what did Othara say? You're hiding behind your religion to justify your complete and utter selfishness.

MCKAY: If Othara existed she would be ashamed of herself.

ZARAH: We ask only to be left alone. And in peace.

MCKAY: So... untold thousands possibly...millions of people will die out there when they could have been saved. All in the name of Othara. How very very peaceful of you.

CHAYA: You should be grateful to Othara.

MCKAY: This is a waste of time.

CHAYA: *turns to Sheppard* Othara regrets that she cannot help you.

MCKAY: And I'm sure those were her exact words.

SHEPPARD: That's enough! Head back to the jumper. I'll be there in a minute.

MCKAY: Why?

SHEPPARD: Because you're not helping.

Notice how everyone but him was trying to be diplomatic. Notice how many times Sheppard tried to get him to tone it down before ordering him back to the jumper. Also, watch the scene where they turn back to the jumper - Ford gives Mckay a look after previously saying he didn't think she was lying. Was Ford letting his feelings toward her cause him to act differently as well?


Still very poor judgement, especially after the fiascos with the Genii. And he liked her from the start. See the "stunned"-part.

Being surprised by her beauty goes to show that she is different than everyone else (as in a genetically perfect Ancient). Beckett later made a comment about her being as beautiful on the inside as on the outside. That's not to say Sheppard wasn't instantly attracted to her, but physical attraction and an emotional interest are two different things. Your claim is that he let his feelings get in the way of his judgement and you do not do that over a basic attraction.


She wanted the technology. John was, however, smitten and took Chaya on a picnic. You cannot deny that.

Sheppard wanted the technology as well and his actions up until that point were based on trying to get it. When it did get to the picnic he was nervous about his feelings as we can see from that scene where he had a talk with Telya and she says the following:

TEYLA: *grins* I know that as ranking military officer here in Atlantis that you feel a heavy burden of responsibility...but you are allowed to have feelings for others...

He is allowed to have a relationship with someone so long as it does not get in the way of his duties and as I've been pointing out nothing he did before the picnic was something that anyone had a problem with - Having a picnic is not a threat to national security.

Yes, John took her on a picnic and kissed her all in the name of securing a new home for them.

If push came to shove, they could've hid out on the Kid Planet for a while. It's not like they were out of options, they were just looking for a better one. To endanger the entire city by bringing in an unknown person who was obviously lying (what with the energy burst which had been established as "Not possibly a natural phenomena) and who was obviously hiding something (in Carson's words, she was "too healthy) and giving them a great tour of everything of the city including what consoles did what (alone with them) and telling them some highly classified information isn't exactly something you'd do normally, even under desperate circumstances and must I remind you again of the Genii. Obviously he wanted to spend time alone with her.

If you want to make a case that trusting her was a mistake on the part of Atlantis as a whole that is fine (Weir, Ford, Sheppard, and Telya all made that mistake then). But you're also trying to claim that the mistake was made because he had feelings toward her and you're overlooking my attempts to show you that he did not show her how the systems worked and gave her a tour because of that.

Remember also that the sanctuary was more than just a home for Atlantis, it could've been a home for millions of people throughout the galaxy and that there was a possibility that they could get a ZPM out of this. There were so many benefits of getting her to trust them.


While she was most probably not a Genii spy, she could've been just as bad as the Genii, friendly at first but with a hidden agenda. John ignored Rodney's input without a second thought. Why? Not just because Rodney wasn't taken as seriously back then, but because he was obviously smitted (see stunned-part) and didn't want to think she was lying about everything.

Now it's probably? She wasn't a Genii spy, I thought we've established this. You just don't like to admit you were wrong in thinking something and want to find some sort of gray area to retreat to, don't you? And again, Rodney was being ignored by everyone without a second thought. However, I will remind you that Sheppard only ignored his mistrust for her after he showed her everything. In fact, it was because Sheppard was showing her things and she touched one the counsels that Rodney figured out that she set off an alien detector. Before he was just complaining about her religion.


John was giving Chaya a tour of the city alone, without anyone else around. How the Hell was Elizabeth supposed to know exactly what John was and wasn't telling her?

Did you really watch the episode or did you just watch part of it? There were other people around when he was telling her what counsels are what. That is when she activated the alien detector device and a nearby scientist explained that they hadn't figured out what it did yet and just moved it there from another part of the city. Considering this was a big deal that Mckay and Weir were made aware of I'd be surprised if he didn't have to explain that it happened while Sheppard was showing Chaya what things do. Also Weir was around when Mckay offered to help Sheppard show her the more advanced systems.


That was years ago. And John should've read that file and known how badly it can end up with you show someone unknown around your facility and give them a full tour of everything. This just makes it even worse.

Smart people learn from the mistakes of others as well.

That was one of many examples. Other times trusting people worked out. But anyway I fail to see how Sheppard would've had the time to read thousands upon thousands of mission reports during his short time in season 1. It wasn't like he prepared for this job - He was thrust into it and suddenly became very busy leading an offworld team and running the military aspect of things within the city. Perhaps you should be blaming Weir for not learning from that mistake as she would've been in a better position to have been aware of that.


It's all big ball of wax. And John knew about Rodney's suspicions all throughout the episode, but swallowed all of Chaya's lies without question and never questioned her. Also, must I repeat myself? Too much information, too thourough a tour and, most importantly, he was almost always alone with her. Had she been Larrian, she could've just overpowered him and stolen his gun and then where would we be with her holding John hostage?

Sheppard knew that Rodney was rambling about "not" stealing a ZPM and how her religion was nonsense. He didn't have any real basis to not trust her and both Ford and Telya didn't think there was cause to think she was lying.


John did a whole lot more than Elizabeth was prepared to do. And you really think he would've abandoned his position for her and go back to Proculus to live with her? She's their High Priestess of Athar, so it's a given she couldn't possibly have moved to Atlantis.

Actually if you really think about it there was a chance that they would have no move there so they would see each other all the time and even if they did not there would've been a chance they could see each other between his missions. There's no reason Weir wouldn't have let him visit her planet from time to time.


You realize that having John as a hostage is a powerful tool of negotiations, right?

Not enough to take control of the city. Further more this is not the only time they've brought people back without checking them for weapons ahead of time.


John had, earlier in the episode, told Chaya that they were new to the galaxy (he'd also explained what a galaxy was).

My point exactly. The Genii knew that they were new to this galaxy as well. Chaya just also knew the name of the exact planet they came from. For some reason you ignored my quote from The Storm though. Your original point was that the Genii could send them back to Earth with the information Sheppard gave her and I was trying to explain that the only thing she knew over the Genii was the name, Earth, which is useless information.

Linzi
October 30th, 2007, 09:29 AM
If folksl want to see characters falling into bed with each other, that's why networks create shows like Desperate Housewives, and populate the daytime with soaps. SGA is an action/adventure/scifi program, and the purpose of those programs is action/adventure/scifi. I don't get Torchwood as I don't get BBC America (darn darn darn) but since I didn't like the character at all when he was on DOCTOR WHO, it's no loss to me.

Basically, if Shep is gonna 'kirk', then at least let's not the end result of that be losing alien technology. That's my biggest gripe. had the ship but because of the kiss, lost the ship. Stupid is as stupid does ;)
Do you honestly believe Sheppard and co would have taken the Aurora class ship? Do you think the Atlantis expedition would have stolen it from the Travelers, who had found it? I don't. Therefore kissing or not has no relevance here. It was Larrin and co's ship. Maybe they might have tried to make a deal for it, but knowing Larrin needed it to house her people, no way would Sheppard take it from her - that's not the type of person he is. Instead they now have an ally with an Aurora class ship, access to technology etc... So the point about whether letting Larrin kiss Sheppard meant he lost the ship is rather a moot one, I think.

Also, sorry, where I come from one kiss doesn't equate falling into bed or anything from Desperate Housewives...

FallenAngelII
October 30th, 2007, 09:49 AM
Actually she did. Neither of them had a weapon and the Wraith were making their way to the control room. Had they not worked together the Wraith would've gotten their hands on the ship and that was something neither of them could allow. Then there's the issue of John saving her life twice - I would count that as her needing his help.
Yes, but once the Wraith were defeated, she had no need for him any more.

The Wraith needed John up until they finally managed to escape through the Stargate. Heck, John didn't even fully trust that Wraith.


He was being nice with the tea thing. You look too deeply into things. As far as ordering Rodney back, pay attention to how he was acting:
Nice my tuchas. He's always flirting around like that. He was also momentarily stunned by her beauty just seconds before saying that.


SHEPPARD: Doesn't strike me as the lying type either. *McKay snorts, silence*.........Ok let's just see what...Othara has to say. *Sits*
My point exactly. He was blinded by her beauty and trusted her because she had a nice body and face. Meanwhile, she lied to him about pretty much everything.


Notice how everyone but him was trying to be diplomatic. Notice how many times Sheppard tried to get him to tone it down before ordering him back to the jumper. Also, watch the scene where they turn back to the jumper - Ford gives Mckay a look after previously saying he didn't think she was lying. Was Ford letting his feelings toward her cause him to act differently as well?
Doesn't matter what Ford thought or didn't think. John was in the wrong. He trusted a woman who lied about everything.


Being surprised by her beauty goes to show that she is different than everyone else (as in a genetically perfect Ancient). Beckett later made a comment about her being as beautiful on the inside as on the outside. That's not to say Sheppard wasn't instantly attracted to her, but physical attraction and an emotional interest are two different things. Your claim is that he let his feelings get in the way of his judgement and you do not do that over a basic attraction.
His "feelings" in Larrin's case were basic attraction as well. John lets that get in his way a lot.

And then there's a whole bunch of crap I don't agree with but don't have to energy to argue against because we keep repeating ourselves. We disagree. Leave it at that.

FallenAngelII
October 30th, 2007, 09:50 AM
Do you honestly believe Sheppard and co would have taken the Aurora class ship? Do you think the Atlantis expedition would have stolen it from the Travelers, who had found it? I don't. Therefore kissing or not has no relevance here. It was Larrin and co's ship. Maybe they might have tried to make a deal for it, but knowing Larrin needed it to house her people, no way would Sheppard take it from her - that's not the type of person he is. Instead they now have an ally with an Aurora class ship, access to technology etc... So the point about whether letting Larrin kiss Sheppard meant he lost the ship is rather a moot one, I think.
So what exactly did John originally plan to do once he'd hijacked the ship? Hyperdrive to the closest gate and gate home? No, he was gonna take it back to Atlantis and then shove the Travelers through a gate to some planet where they could get back home.

DetriusXii
October 30th, 2007, 09:56 AM
I'm going to agree that Sheppard be removed from command. And to the posters arguing that McKay and Carson has relationships, well the counterpoint is that they're relationships weren't security threats. Sheppard's relationships are always security threats and he doesn't belong. Neither does Ronon though, since he's willing to be insubordinate.

Basically, both these members are willing to put their own interests ahead of earth's interests. If the military aspect of the show was still present in Stargate (I think it would be safe to say that it corresponds to the same time in the decline of ratings), we would not have all these childish episodes where Sheppard becomes flustered by the girl or lets his guard down.

Xaeden
October 30th, 2007, 10:12 AM
Yes, but once the Wraith were defeated, she had no need for him any more.

The Wraith needed John up until they finally managed to escape through the Stargate. Heck, John didn't even fully trust that Wraith.

At which point he thought the two had learned to trust each other. Anyway, Lirran told him about how badly they needed the ship and had a little moment where she revealed to him why they had to kidnap him rather than ask for help. On top of that he had saved her life twice and the two had worked together successfully.

As for the Wraith, he stopped needing the Wraith before he escaped into the Stargate. The Wraith could've attacked him at any time before then, but Sheppard the Wraith restored him after taking out the Genii soldiers so they learned to trust each other. Likewise Lirran let Sheppard go after they had that talk in that cell, so it just took her a little longer to do the right thing. He needs to be a lot more cautious, but I can certainly see why he thought he could trust her at that point. Thus if she was a male instead I can easily see Sheppard turning his back on him and the guy grabbing the gun from his belt. Lirran just had a more direct approach and she even commented on how Sheppard didn't think to lock her up at that point because he assumed his people would get their before hers did. The only thing that had anything to do with Sheppard being attracted to her in the episode was his willingness to kiss her back. Everything else was reasonable and within character for him to react to anyone.


Nice my tuchas. He's always flirting around like that. He was also momentarily stunned by her beauty just seconds before saying that.

My point exactly. He was blinded by her beauty and trusted her because she had a nice body and face. Meanwhile, she lied to him about pretty much everything.

I think you have a problem with people who show their attraction to other people. You're jumping to wild and nonsensiable conclusions based purely on a simple physical attraction. Nothing Sheppard did between that point and the picnic was unprofessonal or more trusting than he or Weir would've been had she been ugly.


Doesn't matter what Ford thought or didn't think. John was in the wrong. He trusted a woman who lied about everything.

Yes it does matter. You're not just saying Sheppard was wrong. You're saying he blinded by emotions and did the wrong thing because of that. Yet other people did the same "wrong" things (by your definition) and it had nothing to do with any romantic feelings toward her. You're berating him for thinking he could trust her and letting everyone else off the hook just because Sheppard ended up having a relationship of sorts with her. However, that argument does not pan out. Either everyone was wrong because they were blinded by her beauty or Sheppard had valid reasons for taking her back to Atlantis and giving her the full tour.


His "feelings" in Larrin's case were basic attraction as well. John lets that get in his way a lot.

And how exactly did it get in the way with Chaya when he and everyone but Mckay were in agreement about how he should go about things? Obviously Sheppard should not have kissed Larrin and he suffered for doing so, but here he did everything (before the picnic) for the good of his people and the benefits of what they could've gotten out of trusting her far outweighed any risk.


We disagree. Leave it at that.

Fair enough.

Pegasus_SGA
October 30th, 2007, 02:46 PM
Is this round two? ;) Don't say I never warned you. :P

*Disclaimer* I don't think anything will be closed in this thread FAII, so just to warn you, I may talk of slut! Given the thread, I feel i'll be on topic this time. ;)


John denies been someone who sleeps around or at least who flirts with anything female and mildly attractive on pretty much every other episode. Every single time Rodney accuses him of Kirkism, he denies it, vehemently.

He doesn't admit it because he's a gentleman. As i've said to you before, real men don't talk about what happens in the bedroom... or the closet. ;) He denies it because it's crap! The joke was actually started not as a result of Shep flirting, but because he was possessive about the PJ. Well, I guess you could argue that the PJ is a 'she' so.. ;)



Check any modern dictionary. We've come far in equality and the word "Slut" (sometimes "Manslut") can now be used even for men. No, they are not "Players". It's not a status symbol. They are sluts.

It would be misogyny to consider women who sleep around sluts and men who do the same players.


I quoted you from dictionary.com. You chose not to accept it! I'm not prepared to go to a modern dictionary thanks, as I prefer something that's accurate! Slang words are not proper definitions. I have standards ya know.


He is the second in command of Atlantis. When debriefing, he's got an obligation to include every single detail, even those that would embarass him, especially those. His weak points must be exposed so everyone else know.

Please FAII let's not talk about de-briefing in the slut thread, you'll get me all excited again. :D



What about next time some sexy alien chick decides to flirt her way to grab his gun or whatever? If Teyla knew about the Travelers-incident, she'd politely step in and trip said alien chick or something.

Professionals do not omit important facts in debriefings because they're embarassing.


If some sexy alien woman wants to grab his tackle, then I say good for her! Sometimes a woman just gets the urge for such things. ;)

Yes, well Teyla wasn't there was she? So it's irrelevant. It's again, shoulda, woulda, coulda...

Again with the debriefings.... oh my i've come over all unecessary *pictures images that she shouldn't be picturing* Who said he omitted anything? We don't know that he didn't tell Carter everything, do we? Just because he didn't tell the team, does not mean he didn't tell Sam. And trust me if you put every single thing about a mission, it would likely be novel length. So no, why would he put something like a kiss in. Chances are he wrote;

In PJ, captured by a group known as the Travelers. Tortured and beaten to extract information. Escaped and accessed a new ship! Captured again. Released after diplomatic relations were established. The end. Short sweet and to the point unlike our debates. ;)


Dictionary.com/Wikipedia. Check them before speaking, "hon".

I sense you do not feel my luff, hon. Would sweetie or babe be more appropriate? ;)

And as stated above my original source was quoted from that site. Wikipedia is not a source for accurate information! Next!



(American Heritage Dictionary) * A person, especially a woman, considered sexually promiscuous.

Also, see manslut (http://www.urbandictionary.com/define.php?term=manslut). It's common daily English.


Is that your actual opinion?


Why don't you quote from a reliable source FAII, maybe like websters, or the oxford dictionary? You call people mansluts daily??!! FAII you should be ashamed of yourself.

It's my perception that women and men are treated differently, yes.



I'm still anti-Sam. There is, however, now, one redeeming factor about her being on Atlantis.


So, you're being Pro-Sam when it suits your agenda then? ;)



I think it was much more of a "I don't wanna die"-moment. He didn't wanna die of radiation as well. After all, these were men who had tortured him and threatened to kill him. They were basically enemy combatants.

I would have preferred for him to help her up and then pushed her away when she leaned in to make-out as it was obviously not the right time and place to do it.


Given how much you like his character do you really think that Shep gives a toss about his own life? it's his character that he won't kill unless he absolutely has to. He has a tendancy just incase you didn't know to form alliances.... the CG wraith ring a bell? Ladon? Shall I go on? So why wouldn't he form an alliance with someone like Larrin. Given what was to be gained for Atlantis, he'd put aside his differences wouldn't he?




Because they had to. Because there were three Wraith on ship. Three Wraith who were by then either dead or about to leave the ship. Danger averted. And, hey, he was wrong. Larrin grabbed his gun and shot him and then imprisoned him.

And until he managed to talk her down by revealing the existence of the Asurans, she was gonna keep him locked up and bring him back with her.




Actually, no, not because he had to, because he chose to. There's a difference. And actually the wraith were not dead when they teamed up! he was wrong about Larrin? Not really, because why then did she let him go? Particularly after saying she wouldn't. Must have been one good bit of nookie for her to change her mind. ;)



Because the Athosians were being culled by the Wraith. You do not leave people to their deaths. However, you do not unconditionally trust people just like that when you first meet them. Also, the Athosians did not receive grand tours of Atlantis complete with "this does this" and he didn't spend lots of time alone with a single one of them and then make out with them, allowing for them to take him hostage.


You just contradicted yourself with your previous statement. Ummmm hate to tell you this, but he spent time with Teyla!!



* Original script had him confirm that he accepted
* Filmed, but cut scene had him reject her

The writers obviously thought twice about how it should go. That they even considered having him accept is inexcusable
.

Or they wanted to leave it up to the viewers so that they could have something to talk about. ;)



You must have been watching the wrong episode. It was not just one chaste peck. Open mouths, repeated kissing, leaning of heads, possible tounges, wet, sloppy sounds.

Ooooh your description sounds so pornographic. :lol: It was a kiss, one kiss! Did you see tongues? Really? repeated kissing? Were we watching the same ep? :lol: I like yours better than the one I watched, especially with all that smooching. Can you lend me your copy? :P



They had just initiated a make-out session and in John's mind, he was getting some tail. The make-out session ended abruptly because Larrin was pretty fast on grabbing the stunner.


His libido has clouded his judgement countless times. Counting how many times it didn't is like trying to defend a killer for "all those people he didn't kill".


*Snort* If you call that a makeout session, might I suggest to you some nite time reading? The kamasutra perhaps? A word of advice Fallen, once a woman knows what she wants, she doesn't hesitate. So, she grabbed his tackle.... *imagines that image*

What were we talking about again?




Then why are you so vehemently defending his actions in "Travelers". He obviously make a mistake and paid for it.


Actually my arguments were well reasoned. Certainly not vehement. Did I say that I agreed with him kissing Larrin in that situation? I think you'll find I said he should have waited until they got back to his cell. :D



Yes, because I obviously put to mind everything every single person on this forum says about themselves.


I do. Surprisingly I like to know who i'm talking to. :D



It's not that he'd intentionally let Atlantis be destroyed. But his libido might cloud his judgement, making him go for that Alien Tail at the wrong moments, allowing Atlantis in turn to be destroyed because he was too busy getting tail. This episode proves that.


His libido cloud his judgement after all those eps I mentioned where it didn't? You take one moment out of 4 years? Good logic there. Hate to disappoint ya, but he didn't have sex with her, he kissed her, once.




It might have lead to a tentative alliance?! Oh, yes. I want an alliance with someone so I'll make out with them and then maybe have sex with them. That's the perfect way to start an alliance!

No, he wanted some tail and he thought she was cool and on board. Obviously his gut was wrong.


Right! He allowed himself to be captured just to have sex with an unknown Alien that likes to beat him up!


She said that she'd been following him with her mind. She didn't randomly get hit with visions of him. Every single time he left the cloister, she used her powers to stalk him.

She was delusional and he knew it. In her mind, he'd spend eternity with her as an Ascended being and he knew fully well that would never happen (because he knows himself best), yet he lead her on because he wanted sex.

Are we still on this stalking thing? Do you really want to go there with me on this Fallen? Think about it.

Pegasus_SGA
October 30th, 2007, 03:19 PM
Back :D


As you actually blaming Elizabeth for "Alliance"? They had no choice. It was either "ally" themselves or have every single hive ship in the galaxy come and blow them up. It wasn't Elizabeth's decision to make. Her decision was "choose the least of two evils". Ladon was under strict guard his entire stay. If he'd moved a muscle the wrong way, he'd be toast. He didn't get a full tour of Atlantis complete with what systems do what or received priviliged information nor did Elizabeth skip off on a one-on-one with him without any guards around.

Did I lay blame? I think not! I said that sometimes people have limited choices, and have no alternative to do something that you would not necessarily do... ie... form an alliance with people who killed several of your own people. You work with what you've got.



Sheppard's instincts were wrong. She was lying about pretty much everything. It doesn't matter if her lies were harmless. John had been so blinded he trusted everything she said, but she was lying the entire time. About who she were, about Athar, about how the "device" works, why she came with them, about her maybe changing her mind. Pretty much everything she'd told him were lies. Harmless (to the Atlantis expedition) lies, but lies nonetheless.


What? No one is allowed to have an off moment? Just because your 'the man' does that mean you're going to be right 24/7 365 days a year? No one, and I mean no one is falliable.

Actually he didn't trust her until they started to work together, and felt they had built up a commeraderie... maybe he thought that after working with the wraith, that this would be on the same par. People draw on their experiences.



Now she'd been some evil mastermind planning to take over Atlantis, John would've been equally blinded and trusted everything she'd said. The problem is not that she lied and that her lies were harmless. The problem was how John allowed his libido to overtake all of his other senses and trusted her so completely.


Okay, can i ask you to put the name of the person you're referring to, this jumping around from all these different women is making things difficult to respond to. So whose evil mastermind? Larrin, Teer, Chaya?

I'm responding as if you mean Chaya. And you know this how? Do you really think he'd sacrifce the city? Particularly after the events in the Siege and 'The Storm/The eya'.

So he trusted her, did she do anythin that could be construded as hurting the city? Nope! Did she save the boys from the wraith? Yep. So in a nutshell his instincts were right about her weren't they?




If you strike up a relationship with an Alien Priestess and make out with her and then dump her (because there was no way she was coming to Atlantis to stay and John wouldn't relocate to Proculus), a lot of locals would take offense on him defiling their priestess and then running off.

She was sneaky because she lied about pretty much everything. See above.


Defiling their priestess? Dumping? Which ep was this then, Fallen? Do you know about the social customs of the people from Proculus? Defiling? is that how you see sex or the glowy thing? How do you know they'd take offence? Are you an anthropologist on Proculus and haven't told us? :)

Right,she omitted she was an ancient. Just like the expedition team omit they're from Atlantis? Why? To hide their identity for fear of strangers.




It's inappropriate for a man of his age and position to constantly be doing so when it can get them into trouble. Flirt with the wrong person, get your team thrown into jail. Flirt and Kirk at the wrong times, your team gets killed while you're getting Tail. It hasn't happened yet, but John keeps putting himself in positions where it could.


So a young man in his prime and sexy to boot isn't allowed to flirt? When has he ever put his team at risk, because of a woman? So on 3 occasions in 4 years is what you would define as continually putting himself into positions that could jespordise the team?



That the writers got cold feet and rewrote the episode? Men think about sex, so do women. I think about sex. I like sex. But as the military commander of Atlantis, I wouldn't go around thinking about it while on missions or in hostile situations where I might die at any time.


Men actually think about sex more than women. So being in the military means that once you enlist that actually castrate you, put you on meds and labotomise you so that the word or thought of sex is wiped from your existance? Hmmmmmm i think not. So, when Kolya stormed Atlantis, he thought that he'd let him roam free while he bedded someone? Or while on the Wraith ship he decides to have a bit of nookie with the Wraith Queen, because she's a female, and disregards his team... right he does that all the time! :rolleyes:



I'm strictly going by the Rodney-definition of Kirking. But that's not even the important thing here. John's lapse in judgement cost the Atlantis expedition an Aurora-class ship.

Rodney said it as a joke... it's a shame some people can't take it as such.




"TEER: I knew. (John looks at her.) I was following your journey in my mind. I was with you since you left the Cloister."


She said the following about her visions:
* John was the one to take her virginity (something John's dirty mind hoped for)
* John was the one who would help them Ascend
* John would Ascend with them and spend eternity with her



The bolded part is your interpretation! When did she mention the word 'virginity'? After 6 months being without sex, maybe he was feeling a bit horny? She certainly was. :lol:

Establish to me that Shep has a dirty mind? Just because your mind is permanently in the gutter. :lol: It doesn't mean that everyone else's is, and if you go in to an ep with those preconceptions then that is what you will see.



She's clearly delusional here. She's not just looking for a little sex with the man she's been waiting for. She thinks he's destined to spend eternity with her. She thinks he'd gonna ascend with them.

John knows himself best so he knows he would never Ascend. Yet he takes advantage of her delusion and has sex with her because it felt good, intending very much on leaving her first chance he got, getting her hopes up.


How does that make her delusional? have you ever heard of love at first sight, or fancied someone that doesn't fancy you. Here's a thought, maybe he actually liked her. He was lonely he missed his friends and family, they'd been talking to each other for months, she stood by him, they talked openly about things and grew to care for each other during the 6 months he was there.. they had sex. So?



He's the only one we see get action. The writers are trying to make him look like a stud.

No, he's the only one you think we see in action. Of course no one else on Atlantis has dated, got pregnant, had sex in 4 years.... of course not.

bluealien
October 30th, 2007, 03:34 PM
So what exactly did John originally plan to do once he'd hijacked the ship?
Escape !!


Hyperdrive to the closest gate and gate home?
Possibly.


No, he was gonna take it back to Atlantis and then shove the Travelers through a gate to some planet where they could get back home.

Another assumption on your part. How do you know what Shep intended to do with the Ship... the only reason he took it in the first place was to escape. Why would be want to take the ship from the Travelers... he thought he had come to an understanding with Larrin and that they were helping each other, so why would he want to steal the ship from her... and secondly when did Shep turn into a space pirate where he would willingly try and steal a ship that was not his, and which was a means to helping an entire race of people stay alive.

So a 3 second kiss in your eyes is a reason Sheppard shouldnt be in command, but stealing other races property is fine...

prion
October 30th, 2007, 03:44 PM
Do you honestly believe Sheppard and co would have taken the Aurora class ship? Do you think the Atlantis expedition would have stolen it from the Travelers, who had found it? I don't. Therefore kissing or not has no relevance here. It was Larrin and co's ship. Maybe they might have tried to make a deal for it, but knowing Larrin needed it to house her people, no way would Sheppard take it from her - that's not the type of person he is. Instead they now have an ally with an Aurora class ship, access to technology etc... So the point about whether letting Larrin kiss Sheppard meant he lost the ship is rather a moot one, I think.

Also, sorry, where I come from one kiss doesn't equate falling into bed or anything from Desperate Housewives...

Never said that the Lanteans would steal the ship, but the writers could come up with a better way for the Travelers to keep the ship, rather than Shep let his guard down cuz he's not thinking with the right brains ;) *cough* and I AM a Sheppard fan. This is a problem with how the writers perceive Sheppard. He was so smart in escaping, handling the ship, but flat on his ass when Larrin played the wounded doe. She'd already demonstrated the capability to be very ruthless, starting with his violent abduction.

John's main goal was to escape the whackos who abducted him. And the Lantean ship was his means. I'm sure if he did escape with it and brought it back, carter would probably be averse to giving it back seeing as how it was Lantean technology and a military asset and the IOA would say keep it and she would be behooved to follow orders ;)

As for the kiss, etc., well, it's a slippery slope ;) And alas, the writers (at least some of them) have him do stupid things like this.

sherryw
October 30th, 2007, 03:59 PM
As I have nothing of real value to add here, I'm just going to say that I'm enjoying the debate. Carry on. :D

KiLL3r
October 30th, 2007, 04:57 PM
i like to bold irrelevant words too


anyway sheppard isnt in command and im glad too. Id much rather see him out about in the galaxy killing wraith, forging alliances and sleeping with all the sexy alien broads with big boobs.

bring back weir! or give sam a haircut like in the sg1 days :D

Mattathias2.0
October 30th, 2007, 05:45 PM
To get back on subject. Since when is Sheppard in command (it was Weir and now Carter), what does that have to do with this episode (I didn't see him command anybody, except himself), and what does all this have to do with Carter (she is in command!)?

This whole thread seems rather irrelevant to me.

Why don't we let it die a nice peaceful death with post 80 (not 42 either :()? :D

FallenAngelII
October 31st, 2007, 01:02 AM
To get back on subject. Since when is Sheppard in command (it was Weir and now Carter), what does that have to do with this episode (I didn't see him command anybody, except himself), and what does all this have to do with Carter (she is in command!)?

This whole thread seems rather irrelevant to me.

Why don't we let it die a nice peaceful death with post 80 (not 42 either :()? :D
Until Sam's arrival, John was the Military Commander of Atlantis. I never claimed he was the leader of Atlantis.

Pegasus SGA, I see no point in reply to your posts anymore as you keep repeating the same things, forcing me to repeat the same things and your posts are riddled with "humour" which I at time find belittling and insulting. Never refer to me as "hon", again.

Pegasus_SGA
October 31st, 2007, 05:51 AM
Until Sam's arrival, John was the Military Commander of Atlantis. I never claimed he was the leader of Atlantis.

Pegasus SGA, I see no point in reply to your posts anymore as you keep repeating the same things, forcing me to repeat the same things and your posts are riddled with "humour" which I at time find belittling and insulting. Never refer to me as "hon", again.

I have no problem with you not replying to me sweetie pie. I would like to say though that you are a great adversary, and I really enjoy debating with you on these topics. However, just because you won't reply to me, doesn't mean that I won't reply to your posts! ;) Given my thoughts, I felt we covered a variety of areas relating to Shep's claimed slutty behaviour and command decisions. I certainly don't feel as if we're going round in circles. I'm sure there's lots more to discuss. Sorry about forcing you to reply, I guess I have been getting the whip out more this year to beat other posters. Thanks for letting me know, i'll try and use it more sparinigly in future. :D If you don't like how I post or debate, don't talk to me then, hon. I certainly won't take offence. Sometimes i'm too much of a woman for certain men to deal with. ;) :P :D
And please, call me Peggy all my other friends do. :D
ETA: Force of habit, calling people hon. Note to self: Not everyone likes to feel the luff!

joebags
October 31st, 2007, 08:38 AM
So a young man in his prime and sexy to boot isn't allowed to flirt? When has he ever put his team at risk, because of a woman? So on 3 occasions in 4 years is what you would define as continually putting himself into positions that could jespordise the team?

Just jumping in. When on duty, a military commanding officer shouldn't be flirting with anyone, and yes, Sheppard has put his team at risk, in fact in Sanctuary, he put the entire base at risk when he showed an alien their equipment and even said they didn't know much about the Ancient systems. If Chaya had been a spy, Atlantis would have been toast.



Men actually think about sex more than women. So being in the military means that once you enlist that actually castrate you, put you on meds and labotomise you so that the word or thought of sex is wiped from your existance?

Yeah, guys always think of sex, but in the military you are taught duty, honor, respect, and restraint. I think Sheppard missed the restraint part.


Establish to me that Shep has a dirty mind? Just because your mind is permanently in the gutter. :lol: It doesn't mean that everyone else's is, and if you go in to an ep with those preconceptions then that is what you will see.

There was an episode, No Man's Land I think, where Sheppard gets into a fix and says, "I wish I had listened to McKay", then we get a flashback where McKay and Zelenka are talking and Sheppard isn't listening because he is too busy making eyes at a pretty girl at the next table. I guess the writers thought it was cute, but Sheppard almost caused the mission to fail because of it. Yeah, its okay to look at a cute girl, but not when members of your team are trying to talk to you and explain a situation! The guy is just careless.


Of course no one else on Atlantis has dated, got pregnant, had sex in 4 years.... of course not.

Ya know, I don't care. I don't want to know who is making out with whomever, or who is preggers, or who is horny 24/7. I want to see a good adventure show. I want to see intelligent people behaving in a mature, intelligent manner. Why do people have to have things be "realistic"? Go watch Desperate Housewives or The OC, if you want sex and semi-realism! I prefer good scifi.

blue-skyz
October 31st, 2007, 10:21 AM
There was an episode, No Man's Land I think, where Sheppard gets into a fix and says, "I wish I had listened to McKay", then we get a flashback where McKay and Zelenka are talking and Sheppard isn't listening because he is too busy making eyes at a pretty girl at the next table. I guess the writers thought it was cute, but Sheppard almost caused the mission to fail because of it. Yeah, its okay to look at a cute girl, but not when members of your team are trying to talk to you and explain a situation! The guy is just careless.
Sheppard was not on duty; he was eating with McKay and Zelenka. They were arguing with each other not explaining anything to him; then they turned to him for an opinion. He wasn’t paying attention. He could have been thinking about some new training exercise or how much fun he could have with a pile of C4 and a bunch of stumps. It doesn’t matter, he had not been part of the scientific conversation. As smart as he is, I don’t think he can be expected to remember every conversation around him. :rolleyes:

Starpass
November 2nd, 2007, 06:14 AM
I think the main reason Amanda (Carter) was contracted to be in Command of Atlantis is for ratings. Having said that I personally like to have Carter as the "leader" of the expedition because I think it is in the best interests of the show.

Why Sheppard shouldn't be in command is because; if he was in Command of Atlantis he wouldn't be able to go off world very much, like when Colonel O'Neill became General O'Neill. Most of the time O'Neill was at Stargate Command.

With Carter coming in as the Commander, she can run the Base while Sheppard does what he does best; lead a team that goes off world to fight the fight.
edit: In the beginning of Travelers Sheppard was flying a uncloaked Jumper while alone in space...and why did he not pick up the Travelers ship on his sensors?

He makes too many mistakes to be the Commander of Atlantis.

Mattathias2.0
November 2nd, 2007, 02:32 PM
Until Sam's arrival, John was the Military Commander of Atlantis. I never claimed he was the leader of Atlantis.

I don't understand how you are saying this situation proves he isn't fit for command. In fact, I think it is completely the opposite.

1. He sent a signal that he knows if discovered, people from Earth (specifically Rodney) would be able to understand (the SOS signal),
2. Even though at first Larrin and Sheppard were enemies because of her tactics. When the Wraith arrived, they worked together so both of them would survive,
3. His speech to Larrin at the end proved he empathized with her people and situation. This would open up a possible alliance with the Travelers in the future.

Mitchell82
November 2nd, 2007, 05:46 PM
Then don't read it. I do not make threads to praise great parts of the show. No good discussion ever comes out of 29 post praising how well the expedition handled a certain situation. I create threads where meaningful discussion will arise.
Oh so those of us who like the show and particular episodes don't have meaningfull discussions? :rolleyes:



She was untrustworthy and lying. Everything she'd told the expedition about herself and Athar were lies. She was untrustworthy because she was too healthy, as Carson pointed out.
To protect her people, it wasn't nefarious.


She didn't fall in love with him. She was infatuated, just like John was infatuated with her... and trusted every single one of her lies.
No he simply trusted her and she never lied she just never said she was an ascended Ancient trying to protect her people.



If this was Showtime, the nudity would've been frontal.
Only if the producers agreed which they wouldn't which is one of the reasons it is no longer on Showtime.




"They had a deep connection with each other"? O... K... They didn't insinuate they had sex?

(Not direct quotes)
Teer: I've seen in my visions you're the One.
John: The one what?
Teer: The one who leads us to Ascension.
John: Oh, I'd hoped you meant something else.
Teer: I saw that too. Tonight.
John: *smiles*

Yah... sooooo not having sex.
She said she had seen they would it doesnt mean they did, and even if they did it's not a big deal.



Rewatch Epiphany. Elizabeth gave Mike a chaste kiss. Elizabeth was also in a devoted relationship with Simon, so it wasn't some kind of slutty behaviour.
First it was Sunday and I didn't realize we were only looking for slutty behavior if that's the case then it's pointless to debate this.




A smart man would not have put himself in that position. John did wrong and paid for it because he let his libido and dirty mind get the best of him, despite her being a ruthless killer (should the need arise).

Yeah ok whatever.

Mitchell82
November 2nd, 2007, 05:48 PM
"Terrorist"?

"Troll"

Pegasus_SGA
November 3rd, 2007, 11:22 AM
Just jumping in. When on duty, a military commanding officer shouldn't be flirting with anyone, and yes, Sheppard has put his team at risk, in fact in Sanctuary, he put the entire base at risk when he showed an alien their equipment and even said they didn't know much about the Ancient systems. If Chaya had been a spy, Atlantis would have been toast.

Well, as someone who dealt with the military for years and we're talking 15 years plus, here. I'm going to disagree with you on this. Maybe they shouldn't be flirting, but trust me they do! In fact they flirt more than me whilst on duty, and that's tri nation hon. Army, Air Force and Navy. By showing her some equipment (that was not top secret) he was putting the base at risk... and Weir allowed him knowing this because.....?



Yeah, guys always think of sex, but in the military you are taught duty, honor, respect, and restraint. I think Sheppard missed the restraint part.


Yes, I agree, they're taught all of those things. Restraint? In what sense? You mean dating someone, flirting? You mean there's never been any conduct charges for fratenizing, or adultery, because one on duty they are taught honour, respect and restraint. I could tell you a few stories that would make your hair curl. :lol:




There was an episode, No Man's Land I think, where Sheppard gets into a fix and says, "I wish I had listened to McKay", then we get a flashback where McKay and Zelenka are talking and Sheppard isn't listening because he is too busy making eyes at a pretty girl at the next table. I guess the writers thought it was cute, but Sheppard almost caused the mission to fail because of it. Yeah, its okay to look at a cute girl, but not when members of your team are trying to talk to you and explain a situation! The guy is just careless.

I know the scene you mean, but the scientists were talking shop over luch, and when someone does that with me, i'd switch off to. :lol: Yes, maybe Shep should have paid attention, but if someone talks about something that doesn't interest you, would you pay attention or tune it out?


[/quote]Ya know, I don't care. I don't want to know who is making out with whomever, or who is preggers, or who is horny 24/7. I want to see a good adventure show. I want to see intelligent people behaving in a mature, intelligent manner. Why do people have to have things be "realistic"? Go watch Desperate Housewives or The OC, if you want sex and semi-realism! I prefer good scifi.[/quote]

Oh, I agree i'm not into any of that, I love good plots, good story's. I'm not into who's dating who, or who is horny that's not why I watch the show. I love seeing a story that enthralls me and keeps me watching, which SGA has in abundance. I don't like the girly girl type of programmes out there and certainly don't watch the OC or desperate housewives because it really doesn't interest me. SGA does. We're not talking about realism, though, we're talking about human interaction and human falliables. Shep is not perfect, he makes mistakes, for me it just makes it more believable and if he flirst, so what, as long as the ep i'm watching is not lovey dovey for 42 minutes, i'm sure I can cope with a few lines of innuendo. Why? Because it is realistic, and for an ep to work for me, there has to be a certain amount of believablilty. Are you saying you wouldn't flirt with a good looking guy/girl to get what you wanted?


I think the main reason Amanda (Carter) was contracted to be in Command of Atlantis is for ratings. Having said that I personally like to have Carter as the "leader" of the expedition because I think it is in the best interests of the show.

Why Sheppard shouldn't be in command is because; if he was in Command of Atlantis he wouldn't be able to go off world very much, like when Colonel O'Neill became General O'Neill. Most of the time O'Neill was at Stargate Command.

With Carter coming in as the Commander, she can run the Base while Sheppard does what he does best; lead a team that goes off world to fight the fight.
edit: In the beginning of Travelers Sheppard was flying a uncloaked Jumper while alone in space...and why did he not pick up the Travelers ship on his sensors?

He makes too many mistakes to be the Commander of Atlantis.

I wouldn't want him to be in command, and I don't think Sheppard would like it either to be honest. He prefers to be out there front and center, he's more a hands on rather than sit behind the desk kinda person. I honestly think if that happened he'd resign his commision.


"Troll"

:lol:

FallenAngelII
November 6th, 2007, 04:02 PM
I don't understand how you are saying this situation proves he isn't fit for command. In fact, I think it is completely the opposite.
Funny how you ignored every single point I brought up and instead brought up other points, as if they automatically absolve him from all other possible wrong-doings.

And what you quoted makes no sense. He was the military commander of Atlantis. And I'm quite glad he no longer is.


To protect her people, it wasn't nefarious.
Doesn't mean she didn't lie... and John believed every single lie (and ignored all of the strangeness, like her too-healthiness) without question. It does not matter if this particular liar happened to be, well, good. The military commander believed every single lie.


No he simply trusted her and she never lied she just never said she was an ascended Ancient trying to protect her people.
She lied about who she was, what the "weapon" was, who Athar was, why she went to Atlantis with John and she lead the Atlantis expedition on, thinking they had at least a miniscule chance of getting their hands on the "weapon", among other things.


She said she had seen they would it doesnt mean they did, and even if they did it's not a big deal.
John said "he hoped they'd do it" (paraphrasal), smiled when she said "Yes, i saw that too" and then he kinda moves towards her. Do you need more indication of that they did it?

This was a woman who was clearly delusional. She claims she's seen him as the one to take her virginity in her visions and that she's saved himself for him. Meanwhile, she also claims he'll Ascend with her. Clearly delusional.


First it was Sunday and I didn't realize we were only looking for slutty behavior if that's the case then it's pointless to debate this.
Sorry for mistyping. This thread was here to debate whether John is fit for command due to his history with alien women. Then some people claimed he's not the only one who's gotten tail in the past despite this not being true. Then someone brought up Simon.

Pegasus_SGA
November 6th, 2007, 11:34 PM
*waves*


Funny how you ignored every single point I brought up and instead brought up other points, as if they automatically absolve him from all other possible wrong-doings.

And what you quoted makes no sense. He was the military commander of Atlantis. And I'm quite glad he no longer is.

WOW FAII! We actually agree on something. We should celebrate. Cake anyone? :D I don't want him to be the military commander sitting behind a desk either, I want him out there getting into all kinds of trouble. That was what you meant wasn't it? ;)




Doesn't mean she didn't lie... and John believed every single lie (and ignored all of the strangeness, like her too-healthiness) without question. It does not matter if this particular liar happened to be, well, good. The military commander believed every single lie.


And you know he believed her 'lies' because you've become psychic a la Teer? :P

Thing is FAII, the Atlantis expedition team omit who they are and where they're from to protect their people. Don't you think that Chaya is affording her people that same protection? She omitted who she was because at that time she didn't know if she could trust them. I don't tell people what I do for a living because of issues that could potentially crop up? People (and I use the genral term) don't tell their life story immediatley after meeting someone new. They get to know them and gradually build upon that. So he trusted her. Maybe his ATA gene was tingling?



She lied about who she was, what the "weapon" was, who Athar was, why she went to Atlantis with John and she lead the Atlantis expedition on, thinking they had at least a miniscule chance of getting their hands on the "weapon", among other things.


She did? The team may have thought they were in with a chance and probably would have liked to get their hands on the weapon, but she certainly didn't give them any indication that she would.



John said "he hoped they'd do it" (paraphrasal), smiled when she said "Yes, i saw that too" and then he kinda moves towards her. Do you need more indication of that they did it?


Is this the bit you're talking about? Or are you talking about Teer? You keep jumping from different people and different eps. It could possibly be miscontruted that you're trying to confuse us. ;)

SHEPPARD: Well, I mean ... nothing. It’s just that ... this is the first time I’ve been in a romantic situation with a woman from another planet, and it just strikes me as really, um ...
CHAYA: Wrong?
SHEPPARD: No! God, no! Just, just funny. I’m sorry – I-I just thought that I would, uh ...
CHAYA: You said it yourself. We’re both human.
SHEPPARD: Yes, we are. And I’m really glad you didn’t say ‘family’, otherwise I’d have to leave.
CHAYA: You don’t.
(John sits down on the floor next to Chaya.)
SHEPPARD: I’m not going anywhere.


This was a woman who was clearly delusional. She claims she's seen him as the one to take her virginity in her visions and that she's saved himself for him. Meanwhile, she also claims he'll Ascend with her. Clearly delusional.

So you're on to Teer now? Yes? She actually said that she wanted Shep to take her virginity... or is that you projecting again? Where did she say he'll ascend with her? She asks him if he'll come with her, and that automatically suggests that he's fit for command? How? So if he'd have gone with her, would it have meant that was unfit or he wasn't?

FallenAngelII
November 7th, 2007, 02:20 AM
So you're on to Teer now? Yes? She actually said that she wanted Shep to take her virginity... or is that you projecting again? Where did she say he'll ascend with her? She asks him if he'll come with her, and that automatically suggests that he's fit for command? How? So if he'd have gone with her, would it have meant that was unfit or he wasn't?
TEER: I have known since I was a child that you would sit here with me as you do now. I've been able to close my eyes and see your face my entire life, John. You are the one.
SHEPPARD: The one what?
TEER: The one who will lead us to ascension.
SHEPPARD: Oh! (He frowns.)
TEER: What is it?
SHEPPARD: Nothin'. I just was hoping you were going in a different direction with that.
TEER: I've seen that as well. (John stares at her.) That's why I waited for you.
(John raises his eyebrows.)
SHEPPARD: Really?
TEER: Tonight.

So maybe not a screaming confirmation she saved her virginity for him, I'll give you that. And then...

TEER: And in the coming days, once you have defeated the Beast, we will ascend together -- all of us.
SHEPPARD: You mean all of you.
TEER: I haven't given up on you just yet.

What kind cooky precognitive powers does she have if she doesn't know he won't Ascend with them?

Mattathias2.0
November 7th, 2007, 10:52 AM
What kind cooky precognitive powers does she have if she doesn't know he won't Ascend with them?

Isn't this off-topic with this thread that you created? Suppose I should ask.

g.o.d
November 7th, 2007, 10:57 AM
What kind cooky precognitive powers does she have if she doesn't know he won't Ascend with them?

LOL! good point:)

FallenAngelII
November 7th, 2007, 11:03 AM
Isn't this off-topic with this thread that you created? Suppose I should ask.
Read original post.

Mattathias2.0
November 7th, 2007, 11:20 AM
So am I to understand that the accuracy of Teer's precognitive abilities has everything to do with Sheppard's Command Ability and Carter taking over Weir's place?

Pegasus_SGA
November 7th, 2007, 11:41 AM
TEER: I have known since I was a child that you would sit here with me as you do now. I've been able to close my eyes and see your face my entire life, John. You are the one.
SHEPPARD: The one what?
TEER: The one who will lead us to ascension.
SHEPPARD: Oh! (He frowns.)
TEER: What is it?
SHEPPARD: Nothin'. I just was hoping you were going in a different direction with that.
TEER: I've seen that as well. (John stares at her.) That's why I waited for you.
(John raises his eyebrows.)
SHEPPARD: Really?
TEER: Tonight.

So maybe not a screaming confirmation she saved her virginity for him, I'll give you that. And then...

TEER: And in the coming days, once you have defeated the Beast, we will ascend together -- all of us.
SHEPPARD: You mean all of you.
TEER: I haven't given up on you just yet.

What kind cooky precognitive powers does she have if she doesn't know he won't Ascend with them?

maybe she hoped that given the amount of time they'd spent together he would change her mind, or maybe she can only see certain things relating to him? Honestly I don't know. But i'll ask you again... if you don't want to answer me, that's fine, i'm just curious. If Shep had said 'Yes' he would go with her, would that make him more or less unfit for command than what you're implying?


So am I to understand that the accuracy of Teer's precognitive abilities has everything to do with Sheppard's Command Ability and Carter taking over Weir's place?

I was going to ask the same thing, :lol: but you beat me to it. :lol: I think what FAII is implying is that his judgement was clouded with regards to her, and remember this was original titled the slut thread, so him having relationships goes away (in FAII's mind) i'm guessing given the response that he's unfit for command due to the 'many' relationships he's had. Is that a fair assessment FAII?

Mattathias2.0
November 7th, 2007, 12:04 PM
Maybe it's me but it sounds like she is trying to convince him to ascend with her. He was reluctant from the beginning about that.

In the end, the accuracy of her precognitive abilities has little or nothing to do with their relationship, whatever it may be, or his command abilities.

FallenAngelII
November 8th, 2007, 06:32 AM
So am I to understand that the accuracy of Teer's precognitive abilities has everything to do with Sheppard's Command Ability and Carter taking over Weir's place?
He knew she was delusional and was hoping/thinking he'd Ascend with her (and thus spend eternity with her) and slept with her anyway, getting some nookie while he could.


If Shep had said 'Yes' he would go with her, would that make him more or less unfit for command than what you're implying?

If John had said "Yes" to Ascending with her, then, well, he would've Ascended. That's certainly his choice and I'll ask you this: would you turn down Ascension?

However, he didn't. And she clearly expected him to... she thought they'd spend eternity having kinky Japanese tentacle sex, but clearly, that's not what John wanted. He just wanted some nookie before she Ascended and then left her behind (or above) without looking back.

Pegasus_SGA
November 8th, 2007, 09:49 AM
He knew she was delusional and was hoping/thinking he'd Ascend with her (and thus spend eternity with her) and slept with her anyway, getting some nookie while he could.

I don't think we'll ever agree on this point. What's the problem with him having sex with her? They're consenting adults, technically he wasn't military at that point was he? He'd been there 6 months without any sign or chances of getting home, and while he may not have given up getting back to Atlantis, he wasn't there as a soldier was he? He was just a man trying to do what he could to get home. he probably thought that after 6 months that he'd be there indefinately.



If John had said "Yes" to Ascending with her, then, well, he would've Ascended. That's certainly his choice and I'll ask you this: would you turn down Ascension?


Yes, but that's not what I asked you. I asked you if you thought that him not ascending makes him more or less unfit for command.

As for whether I would ascend? I think not. Too many rules and people telling me what I couldn't do, and those nifty powers would be useless if you couldn't use them. :lol: So I think i'd pass. :D What about you?


However, he didn't. And she clearly expected him to... she thought they'd spend eternity having kinky Japanese tentacle sex, but clearly, that's not what John wanted. He just wanted some nookie before she Ascended and then left her behind (or above) without looking back.

She didn't seem that cut up when he said no She accepted his decision to stay behind and moved on. Now if she was the delusional stalker that you felt she was, wasn't her behaviour quite normal? Didn't it suggest that she accepted his decision and allowed him to do what he felt was best. Sounds like she was quite rational actually. As for the nookie, well at that point, how long had they been trying to ascend? A loooooooong time. They didn't know how, and it was only when Sheppard told them to face their face their fears and come together did they achieve ascension. He's such a clever sausage isn't he. ;)

Xaeden
November 8th, 2007, 11:26 AM
TEER: And in the coming days, once you have defeated the Beast, we will ascend together -- all of us.
SHEPPARD: You mean all of you.
TEER: I haven't given up on you just yet.

What kind cooky precognitive powers does she have if she doesn't know he won't Ascend with them?


The same Jonas had - The future is not set in stone and from what she said she made it sound very much like she wasn't entirely sure that he would. Thus she said that she hadn't given up (on the possibility) not that she knew he would/wouldn't (for sure). It's also doubtful that she had control over her powers, rather she probably gets visions randomly and therefore doesn't know every little detail of the future or how scenes she sees in her head came about. Otherwise she would know how Sheppard helped them and could've rallied her people to face the monster without him. Instead she probably just saw flashes of him and their time together and then flashes of them ascending.


He knew she was delusional and was hoping/thinking he'd Ascend with her (and thus spend eternity with her) and slept with her anyway, getting some nookie while he could.

How is someone with super powers delusional for telling someone the particulars of those powers anymore than someone like Sheppard would be delusional for telling some regular Joe that he travels to other galaxies and then backs it up with proof? You keep throwing that word around like you're talking about a person who says those things in real life.


If John had said "Yes" to Ascending with her, then, well, he would've Ascended. That's certainly his choice and I'll ask you this: would you turn down Ascension?

However, he didn't. And she clearly expected him to... she thought they'd spend eternity having kinky Japanese tentacle sex, but clearly, that's not what John wanted. He just wanted some nookie before she Ascended and then left her behind (or above) without looking back.

Sheppard had no idea he would not spend the rest of his life with her. As far as he knew Atlantis had given up on him and he was stuck there. Had he turned down ascending with her and her people, he would've been left there, on his own, for the rest of his life. So I really don't see your problem with him here. You act like he should've known that Mckay was coming soon and he had a third option.

O'neill was in the same situation - He held out hope for returning to Earth for some time, but eventually he gave up entirely and started a new life with a woman there until Teal'c came through and he realized he could go home (that doesn't mean he cared for that woman any less or was just trying to have sex while he was "temporarily" stuck there). However, unlike Sheppard, he should've known that the Tok'ra would eventually be able to send a ship (he knows it takes awhile for them to be able to use one to help Earth) where as Sheppard was completely on his own as far as he knew. So do you have similar/worse feelings toward O'neill as you do toward Sheppard or are you just being hypocritical?

As far as Teer goes, you have no idea what she really thought. As previously mentioned she said she had not given up hope on him before hinting at sex, not that she truly thought they would be together forever and was only having sex with him because of that. In the end, she wasn't that broken up or surprised as Pegassus SGA said, so I don't see why you are getting upset for her. She seemed to be a very intelligent woman who was fully capable of making her own decisions, but because some of the things she said came from visions you've turned her into a child who was taken advantage of.

They had an adult relationship. All the time people get into relationships where they care about each other, but they go in knowing that it may not last forever and they share this with their partner who is willing to see where it goes anyway. People can be deeply in love, but they break up because it's important that they go to a college out of state or move to the otherside of the country for family or job obligations and the other person tells them that they love them, but their life is here and they cannot go with them. That's all that happened here. Teer knew there was a chance Sheppard and her would not ascend together and she went into that relationship anyway. More so, she could've made a decision not to ascend, but instead go back to Atlantis with Sheppard and live out her life with him as mortals. But ascention was important to her and Sheppard's duties were important to him so they parted (on good terms). It's not a big deal - Nobody was hurt besides a delusional poster who has strange ideas on how a relationship "needs" to be.

FallenAngelII
November 9th, 2007, 02:08 AM
I don't think we'll ever agree on this point. What's the problem with him having sex with her? They're consenting adults, technically he wasn't military at that point was he? He'd been there 6 months without any sign or chances of getting home, and while he may not have given up getting back to Atlantis, he wasn't there as a soldier was he? He was just a man trying to do what he could to get home. he probably thought that after 6 months that he'd be there indefinately.
Read... the... post... again... please.

It's not that he had sex with her. It's that he had sex with a woman who clearly thought/was hoping/claimed to have seen him Ascending with her, spending eternity with her. He knew deep down inside that he would never do that. Not only would he not be able to not interfere, he wouldn't be able to leave his people behind to wage a war he started.

He knew this. And he also knew what Teer at least hoped. Teer wanted a mate for eternity. John wanted some no-strings-attached sex.


Yes, but that's not what I asked you. I asked you if you thought that him not ascending makes him more or less unfit for command.
Why would it? Choosing to have sex with a woman because he could while she clearly expected more, delusional or not, is, however, bad.


She didn't seem that cut up when he said no She accepted his decision to stay behind and moved on. Now if she was the delusional stalker that you felt she was, wasn't her behaviour quite normal?
Because the writers are men and thought women would react that way. And she's delusional and off her rocker. Of course her behaviour is irrational.


Thus she said that she hadn't given up (on the possibility) not that she knew he would/wouldn't (for sure). It's also doubtful that she had control over her powers, rather she probably gets visions randomly and therefore doesn't know every little detail of the future or how scenes she sees in her head came about. Otherwise she would know how Sheppard helped them and could've rallied her people to face the monster without him. Instead she probably just saw flashes of him and their time together and then flashes of them ascending.
She had been following him the entire time he spent away from the cloister. It's not just flashes.


How is someone with super powers delusional for telling someone the particulars of those powers anymore than someone like Sheppard would be delusional for telling some regular Joe that he travels to other galaxies and then backs it up with proof? You keep throwing that word around like you're talking about a person who says those things in real life.
Because she claims to have seen stuff she shouldn't have seen because they couldn't ever possibly happen?


Sheppard had no idea he would not spend the rest of his life with her. As far as he knew Atlantis had given up on him and he was stuck there ... You act like he should've known that Mckay was coming soon and he had a third option.
Earlier in that very same scene (the one where she said "Oh, Studly Major, worship at my womanly temple!"), John had just returned from the caves with provisions sent through by his people and marvelled at how long it took but that they're at least coming for sure.

I'm sorry, but that argument holds zero water. John knew his people were coming for him. After all, only hours earlier had he found their stuff.


O'neill was in the same situation - He held out hope for returning to Earth for some time, but eventually he gave up entirely and started a new life with a woman there until Teal'c came through and he realized he could go home (that doesn't mean he cared for that woman any less or was just trying to have sex while he was "temporarily" stuck there). However, unlike Sheppard, he should've known that the Tok'ra would eventually be able to send a ship (he knows it takes awhile for them to be able to use one to help Earth) where as Sheppard was completely on his own as far as he knew. So do you have similar/worse feelings toward O'neill as you do toward Sheppard or are you just being hypocritical?
Read above. Jack's gate was buried beyond help (as far as he knew) and he hadn't just found a sign that people were coming for him.

Besides, the woman he stayed with hadn't just revealed she was a delusional stalker.


Teer knew there was a chance Sheppard and her would not ascend together and she went into that relationship anyway. More so, she could've made a decision not to ascend, but instead go back to Atlantis with Sheppard and live out her life with him as mortals. But ascention was important to her and Sheppard's duties were important to him so they parted (on good terms). It's not a big deal - Nobody was hurt besides a delusional poster who has strange ideas on how a relationship "needs" to be.
Teer had been stuck inside that cloister her entire life. Their people came there "generations ago", meaning that she would've been born there. Living in such a closed society, she was probably brought up very innocent (not to mention prudish).

She had also been saving herself for John (allegedly) because she had seen that he'd be "the one". Of course she wanted much more than a one-night stand (as opposed to John, who knew his people would be there any day now).

bluealien
November 9th, 2007, 03:12 AM
He knew she was delusional and was hoping/thinking he'd Ascend with her (and thus spend eternity with her) and slept with her anyway, getting some nookie while he could.


If John had said "Yes" to Ascending with her, then, well, he would've Ascended. That's certainly his choice and I'll ask you this: would you turn down Ascension?

However, he didn't. And she clearly expected him to... she thought they'd spend eternity having kinky Japanese tentacle sex, but clearly, that's not what John wanted. He just wanted some nookie before she Ascended and then left her behind (or above) without looking back.

Why does everything have to turn into sex for you?. And again how do you know what John wanted. He had spent 6 months with this woman and grew fond of her. They were 2 concenting adults who decided to have sex.... or maybe they just kissed all night .... who knows. But I see nothing wrong with John having sex with a woman he had known for 6 months. Not all relationships or sex end up with people walking off into the sunset for eternity. John never wanted to ascend and that has nothing to do with him having sex with Teer... he didn't even know she would suceed in ascending in his lifetime.. for all John knew he could have ended up living the rest of his days on the planet with her.

Why do you keep saying Teer was delusional. Believing in something (that in the end actually happened) is not being delusional. She had a gift and her whole purpose in life was to asend, nothing wrong with that... but even after his time on the planet John was still not ready for that. He knew he was needed by his people to help defeat the Wraith.

Linzi
November 9th, 2007, 03:39 AM
Why does everything have to turn into sex for you?. And again how do you know what John wanted. He had spent 6 months with this woman and grew fond of her. They were 2 concenting adults who decided to have sex.... or maybe they just kissed all night .... who knows. But I see nothing wrong with John having sex with a woman he had known for 6 months. Not all relationships or sex end up with people walking off into the sunset for eternity. John never wanted to ascend and that has nothing to do with him having sex with Teer... he didn't even know she would suceed in ascending in his lifetime.. for all John knew he could have ended up living the rest of his days on the planet with her.

Why do you keep saying Teer was delusional. Believing in something (that in the end actually happened) is not being delusional. She had a gift and her whole purpose in life was to asend, nothing wrong with that... but even after his time on the planet John was still not ready for that. He knew he was needed by his people to help defeat the Wraith.
Agreed. Teer wasn't some poor little child, she was an adult perfectly capable of making decisions.

I think the whole point that's being missed by some folks here, is that Sheppard and Teer had a relationship which had grown for six months. They got to know eachother, as friends, and the kiss or whatever happened after that, (and we don't know they actually had sex), was something that happened after two people had known eachother for a long time, and who wanted it to happen.

Teer wanted something to happen between her and Sheppard; she initiated it and he was willing. Now, why is Sheppard taking advantage here, and who says he knew he didn't want to ascend at that point, if the team had never turned up? For all he knew he'd be stuck there forever, and would've ended up ascending with all of the cloister in the end.

I agree about your other points here. When we embark on a relationship, chances are we know it won't work out. In the scheme of things more relationships do fail than work out, so Teer couldn't have expected Sheppard to necessarily join her in ascension. Maybe she thought she could persuade him, maybe not, we just don't know. Thus the whole 'Sheppard slept with Teer and then just dumped her' is complete rubbish. Teer was intent on ascending, Sheppard on returning to his people. People have different priorities. As Blue says, Teer could've chosen not to Ascend and joined Shep on Atlantis had she felt strongly about him.

Xaeden
November 9th, 2007, 03:51 AM
She had been following him the entire time he spent away from the cloister. It's not just flashes.

What I meant was that her visions of certain events were probably sketchy. You are assuming she saw every little detail of the future and would therefore know if John would or would not ascend with her. You also assume that she is not fully aware that the future is not sent in stone and she had that they have the power to change those visions.

However, she has two different powers. One to see visions of the future and one where she can following someone in real time. So your example does not show how extensive her ability to see the future is.


Because she claims to have seen stuff she shouldn't have seen because they couldn't ever possibly happen?

Are you for real? It's a fictional show where she can and did indeed see those things. Next you're going to be saying Daniel is delusional for revealing to people that he was once an energy being which is an impossibility in real life. Maybe the little girl was delusional too. She said she could heal people and she did! Wow wee.


Earlier in that very same scene (the one where she said "Oh, Studly Major, worship at my womanly temple!"), John had just returned from the caves with provisions sent through by his people and marvelled at how long it took but that they're at least coming for sure.

I'm sorry, but that argument holds zero water. John knew his people were coming for him. After all, only hours earlier had he found their stuff.

After several months all they did was send him food. Not very encouraging. Previously this was said:

AVRID: Those that came before us made certain that there could be no indecision. Once you set foot within the Sanctuary, your path was chosen.

So at this point in his mind he probably thought that his friends since discovered it was a one way trip and had no way to do anything about it so he was indeed trapped. Mckay would never have taken several months (remember he knew nothing about the time dialation aspect) to figure out how to free him if it was indeed possible, so he pretty much thought he was screwed. He said it himself when they found him so you making up what you think he should've thought when he found the food doesn't hold water:

SHEPPARD: First thing to go when we get home. (Elizabeth smiles and nods.) Never thought I'd see any of you again. Kind of even ... missed you a little.

But apparently you think he's a liar and that he really thought something entirely different - It's easy to say what you think he should've thought as a viewer who knows everything that was going, but you have to try to see things from his perspective. The guy never even heard of a time dialation field before and here he was for months with only one bag of food from his friends after it all begun. If it was me I'd think the team finally convinced Weir to let them go back and they threw it in hopes that he was still alive despite not having any way to confirm it without going through and getting trapped themselves. Sort of like how you throw a flower down on the last place you saw someone who you suspect to be dead, but a little less so since if he is indeed alive he will need more than a flower.


Read above. Jack's gate was buried beyond help (as far as he knew) and he hadn't just found a sign that people were coming for him.

Besides, the woman he stayed with hadn't just revealed she was a delusional stalker.

Neither did Sheppard. They sent him some food after 6 months. There's no way to even begin to imagine what Sheppard might have thought of them at that point. If they really were coming for him why would they forget about him for all that time and then send food? It doesn't compute without the information we, as viewers, know about the time dialation field.

As far as O'neill goes, he's a smart guy who knows damn well their situation with the Tok'ra. Had Teal'c not gotten through at that point it was only a matter of time before the Tok'ra got a ship over to that planet. You blast Sheppard for over looking what you consider the obvious, but O'neill gets a pass for ignoring that. Plus his love interest was a normal person who didn't have powers that can't possibly exist unless it was a fictional show where such things were possible...I see how it is.


Teer had been stuck inside that cloister her entire life. Their people came there "generations ago", meaning that she would've been born there. Living in such a closed society, she was probably brought up very innocent (not to mention prudish).

That's how you would expect such a person to be in that situation, but she clearly wasn't.


She had also been saving herself for John (allegedly) because she had seen that he'd be "the one". Of course she wanted much more than a one-night stand (as opposed to John, who knew his people would be there any day now).

Again that is how you expect someone in such a situation to act, but it has no basis with what happened on screen. She was fine parting with him. She did not cry, she did not act irrationally, she did not even offer to turn her back on ascention so they could be together (it was 'maybe you'll be ready one day' bye). If anything she was the one who knew she would be leaving and took advantage of Sheppard. Of course in order to take advantage of someone you can't go around being up front with them about your plans and intentions to begin with like both of them were. But, oh the difference is that one of them had utilized most of her brain making her extremely intelligent although not wordly and had powers that allowed her to see beyond the simple life she embraced so she must've been incapable of making decisions for herself. She was depicted in a way similar to a monk living on a mountain somewhere - They have not received college educations or watched tv, but they spend their entire lives looking for truth in themselves and in the simpleness of life around to them to where one expects to go to them and receive great wisdom. She was perfectly aware of what sex meant, what ascention would mean, and John's feelings - She was not a helpless little girl who needs you defend her because she's otherwise easily taken advantage of. You're projecting onto her to make your argument work despite her acting in a completely different manner on screen.

Alipeeps
November 9th, 2007, 04:06 AM
She had also been saving herself for John (allegedly) because she had seen that he'd be "the one".

Uhhh.. where on earth do you get that from? Where was there any statement, indication or even hint that Teer had been "saving herself", that she was some sheltered virgin, keeping herself for her one and only? This is mere supposition. YOu have absolutely no way of knowing whether she was a virgin or not. These people have been living in the Cloister for generations... meaning they have been *breeding* in there for all that time. Just because you're on the road to ascension doesn't mean you don't love and be loved, and that includes sex.

She said he was "the One" who would lead them to Ascension. Not "the ONe" she had been saving her virginity for! :rolleyes:

Linzi
November 9th, 2007, 05:21 AM
Uhhh.. where on earth do you get that from? Where was there any statement, indication or even hint that Teer had been "saving herself", that she was some sheltered virgin, keeping herself for her one and only? This is mere supposition. YOu have absolutely no way of knowing whether she was a virgin or not. These people have been living in the Cloister for generations... meaning they have been *breeding* in there for all that time. Just because you're on the road to ascension doesn't mean you don't love and be loved, and that includes sex.

She said he was "the One" who would lead them to Ascension. Not "the ONe" she had been saving her virginity for! :rolleyes:
I think the confusion stems from the scene where Sheppard returns after his 10 hour excursion and Teer says she'd been waiting for Sheppard. Some take it to mean she was saving the honour of being de-flowered to Sheppard, while myself, and others, took it to mean she was waiting in his room to speak to him, knowing what would happen. Thus we have no idea if Teer was a virgin or not. It's not discussed at all, and the fact that she is the one who initiated intimacy with Sheppard suggests to me, it's not the first time she's certainly kissed a man!

Alipeeps
November 9th, 2007, 06:17 AM
I think the confusion stems from the scene where Sheppard returns after his 10 hour excursion and Teer says she'd been waiting for Sheppard. Some take it to mean she was saving the honour of being de-flowered to Sheppard, while myself, and others, took it to mean she was waiting in his room to speak to him, knowing what would happen. Thus we have no idea if Teer was a virgin or not. It's not discussed at all, and the fact that she is the one who initiated intimacy with Sheppard suggests to me, it's not the first time she's certainly kissed a man!

Wow. I thought it was obvious from that scene - and from Sheppard's response to her comment about waiting for him - that she meant she'd been waiting for him to return.. because he'd been gone for 10 hours withou explanation! It never even occured to me to interpret that any other way. And really, why would she completely out of the blue announce that she had been saving her virginity for him as soon as he steps into the room? It's a heck of a conversation opener! :eek:

And I'm pretty sure if that had been what she meant, and Sheppard had realised that, the scene following would have gone rather differently.. most likely starting with a "Huh? Wha? I'm sorry, what did you say?!" reaction from Sheppard! :lol:

FallenAngelII
November 9th, 2007, 06:26 AM
Of course they had sex.

Teer said she'd seen he'd been the one. John wondered "To do what". She said "To lead us to Ascension". John was visibly disappointed and said he was hoping she was talking about something else.

She then says "Well, I saw that, too", whereby John perks up. She continutes by stating "Tonight!". And John smiled.

So, yes, they had sex.

She also said "That's why I waited for you". So maybe she wasn't a virgin. But she'd been waiting for him probably a long time, expecting him to be her eternal companion.

saberhagen83
November 9th, 2007, 06:37 AM
Why does everything have to turn into sex for you?. And again how do you know what John wanted. He had spent 6 months with this woman and grew fond of her. They were 2 concenting adults who decided to have sex.... or maybe they just kissed all night .... who knows. But I see nothing wrong with John having sex with a woman he had known for 6 months. Not all relationships or sex end up with people walking off into the sunset for eternity. John never wanted to ascend and that has nothing to do with him having sex with Teer... he didn't even know she would suceed in ascending in his lifetime.. for all John knew he could have ended up living the rest of his days on the planet with her.

Why do you keep saying Teer was delusional. Believing in something (that in the end actually happened) is not being delusional. She had a gift and her whole purpose in life was to asend, nothing wrong with that... but even after his time on the planet John was still not ready for that. He knew he was needed by his people to help defeat the Wraith.

I completely agree with you. I see nothing wrong with John having sex with Teer. Like you said, they had known eachother for 6 months. I'd say that is a decent amount of time that they spent together. So if this is FAII's defenition of beeing a "slut", then it's a major reach! So are we gonna call Jack that too? Seen "A hundered days" lately, FAII?. It is after all, pretty much the exact same scenario. Both knew that their people would try to rescue them, but neither knew how long, if ever, before that would happen. And you have to remember that John didn't know that time was going faster where he was. So he thought he was gone for 6 months.

When it comes to "The Tower". I disliked that ep very much, and would put it as one of the worst in SGA. However, we don't know if they really did anything. Maybe they did or maybe they didn't, but I don't really care as I rather forget the entire ep completely! ;). And Chaya fell in love with him, it's not like he used her or anything. Sure he seemed to fall for her right from the start...but still again we didn't see them doing anything more than kissing.

Xaeden
November 9th, 2007, 08:25 AM
She also said "That's why I waited for you". So maybe she wasn't a virgin. But she'd been waiting for him probably a long time, expecting him to be her eternal companion.

All we know is that she knew she would meet him and that she had feelings for him. This eternal companion nonsense is something you cooked up to give greater weight to your argument. As people have been said repeatedly in this thread, for someone who expected them to be together forever, as you so claim, she was not broken up when they parted (in fact she picked ascention over being him) and she knew good and well that there was a high chance that he wouldn't ascend with her. Otherwise she wouldn't have said she hadn't given up hope (hope is not something you have when you expect something to happen). Try to stick to the facts and not go off on these baseless tangents.

Pegasus_SGA
November 9th, 2007, 10:56 AM
The same Jonas had - The future is not set in stone and from what she said she made it sound very much like she wasn't entirely sure that he would. Thus she said that she hadn't given up (on the possibility) not that she knew he would/wouldn't (for sure). It's also doubtful that she had control over her powers, rather she probably gets visions randomly and therefore doesn't know every little detail of the future or how scenes she sees in her head came about. Otherwise she would know how Sheppard helped them and could've rallied her people to face the monster without him. Instead she probably just saw flashes of him and their time together and then flashes of them ascending.

Agreed. heck if she could have seen the future with that much clarity she would have realised that it was a futile exercise even asking Shep to stay. The impression I got, was with certain things she can only see so far ahead. So I never got the impression from her, that she could influence anyone's thoughts, or their actions. Her purpose was to let things happen as they happend, that seemed to be all their philosphies.


How is someone with super powers delusional for telling someone the particulars of those powers anymore than someone like Sheppard would be delusional for telling some regular Joe that he travels to other galaxies and then backs it up with proof? You keep throwing that word around like you're talking about a person who says those things in real life.

It's because people fear what they don't understand, and instead of reading up on these things and trying to think 'outside the box' they ridicule it.



Read... the... post... again... please.

Which... part... would.... that ..... be ..... sweetie pie...?



It's not that he had sex with her. It's that he had sex with a woman who clearly thought/was hoping/claimed to have seen him Ascending with her, spending eternity with her. He knew deep down inside that he would never do that. Not only would he not be able to not interfere, he wouldn't be able to leave his people behind to wage a war he started.


Did she EVER say, Sheppy, darling you and I are meant to be together for all eternity. I've seen us Ascend and go to our happy place. You can't change fate my darling, you must come with us? Hope and expecting are two very different things. I hope to one day go and visit the SGA set, but I don't expect to. That's the difference.

Irrespective of whether he slept with her or not, your point when you started this thread was "Shep is commander space slut and is unfit for command" So with that in mind, if he did sleep with her, does that make him unfit for command? If he had agreed to go with her would that make him unfit for command. Isn't that the crux of the matter? Yes he hoped one day that he would get back to Atlantis, but he's not the sort of person to 'give up' without a fight, and he hadn't at that point given up hope of being rescued, I agree with you there.... and now i'm even confusing myself. What were we talking about again? :S


He knew this. And he also knew what Teer at least hoped. Teer wanted a mate for eternity. John wanted some no-strings-attached sex.

Are you now a mind reader? How can you say that Shep wanted no strings attached sex, and that she wanted a mate for all eternity in Shep? There are no guarantees in this world. Things happened on that planet that she had no control over. Yes, she may have had the visions to see things, but variables come into play, such as freedom of choice. Her people from what we could see had not met someone like Shep before. So when you have the unpredictability what happens? Anything?



Why would it? Choosing to have sex with a woman because he could while she clearly expected more, delusional or not, is, however, bad.


How do you know they never had a conversation before hand or afterwards? At that point, given that 6 months had passed was he not entitled to spend time with her and get closer? Was he never supposed to start a relationship... because there might be a one in a million chance of him being rescued? Was he destined to remain alone forever? Why shouldn't he have sex with her? If both come to a mutual understanding, what's the problem?


Because the writers are men and thought women would react that way. And she's delusional and off her rocker. Of course her behaviour is irrational.

Yep, the writers are men, so i'm assuming you believe that they wrote her as a delusional stalker type female that wanted nothing more than to get her leg over? Is that what you're saying? I still am not seeing how her behaviour was irrational, because of the visions she had it made her irrational or are you saying that women in general are irrational? ;)




She had been following him the entire time he spent away from the cloister. It's not just flashes.


And we know this how? Was she not concerned for him because he'd been away for so long? Surely if she was all seeing and all knowing she wouldn't have been so concerned for him?



Earlier in that very same scene (the one where she said "Oh, Studly Major, worship at my womanly temple!"), John had just returned from the caves with provisions sent through by his people and marvelled at how long it took but that they're at least coming for sure.


:lol: Oh studly Major worship at my womanly temple? ROFLMAO where do you come up with these?

*attempts to be serious while failing miserably*

What you mean this scene?

TEER: I've seen that as well. (John stares at her.) That's why I waited for you.

(John raises his eyebrows.)

SHEPPARD: Really?

TEER: Tonight.

SHEPPARD: Tonight?! (He grins.) I ... I wish you woulda told me -- I wouldn't have gone on a ten-hour run.

Hmmmmm no worshipping of the womanly temple here. That must have been the scene they cut because it's no longer on showtime. ;) Ergo it has to be kept PG. The 'worshipping' must have happened after that scene ended.. oh and looky she didn't say she waited for him all her life, she waited for him that night. She also said. "You're the one!" Which did not intimate Shep was the one to take her virginity, she meant and infact said he was the one to lead them to ascension.. sooooooooooo?



I'm sorry, but that argument holds zero water. John knew his people were coming for him. After all, only hours earlier had he found their stuff.


maybe that's what he hoped, but if you had been left for 6 months without any word from your team would you think they'd still be coming after you?



Read above. Jack's gate was buried beyond help (as far as he knew) and he hadn't just found a sign that people were coming for him.

Besides, the woman he stayed with hadn't just revealed she was a delusional stalker.


And the same could be said for Shep.... they could have stepped through after him, but didn't. Wouldn't Shep have been wondering why they hadn't? Maybe he thought they couldn't?

No you're right she only told him she was a delusional stalker after they had sex. :rolleyes: Nice try, but no cigar. She actually told him about the visions before they apparantly did it.


Teer had been stuck inside that cloister her entire life. Their people came there "generations ago", meaning that she would've been born there. Living in such a closed society, she was probably brought up very innocent (not to mention prudish).

She had also been saving herself for John (allegedly) because she had seen that he'd be "the one". Of course she wanted much more than a one-night stand (as opposed to John, who knew his people would be there any day now).

She didn't seem that prudish. :lol: As mentioned above, she meant 'he was the one to lead them to ascension'. She only mentioned the sleeping with him part after Shep the little hussy said he was expecting her to say something else. I'm sure you watched a different ep to me. :lol:


Wow. I thought it was obvious from that scene - and from Sheppard's response to her comment about waiting for him - that she meant she'd been waiting for him to return.. because he'd been gone for 10 hours withou explanation! It never even occured to me to interpret that any other way. And really, why would she completely out of the blue announce that she had been saving her virginity for him as soon as he steps into the room? It's a heck of a conversation opener! :eek:

And I'm pretty sure if that had been what she meant, and Sheppard had realised that, the scene following would have gone rather differently.. most likely starting with a "Huh? Wha? I'm sorry, what did you say?!" reaction from Sheppard! :lol:

:lol: I can just hear that conversation now. *shall not repeat those thoughts as it's a family forum* :P


Of course they had sex.

Teer said she'd seen he'd been the one. John wondered "To do what". She said "To lead us to Ascension". John was visibly disappointed and said he was hoping she was talking about something else.

She then says "Well, I saw that, too", whereby John perks up. She continutes by stating "Tonight!". And John smiled.

So, yes, they had sex.

She also said "That's why I waited for you". So maybe she wasn't a virgin. But she'd been waiting for him probably a long time, expecting him to be her eternal companion.

Well according to Shep he was too knackered... or maybe he was just playing hard to get? ;) :P

Linzi
November 9th, 2007, 11:49 AM
Well according to Shep he was too knackered... or maybe he was just playing hard to get? ;) :P

Hell yes! Hubby unusually commented on that line, and said '10 hour run?' No way was anything happening! :lol:

Pegasus_SGA
November 9th, 2007, 12:16 PM
Men!! They really don't have much stamina do they? ;)

Personally I thought Teer was the intergalactic little hussy, did you note Linz, it was her who kissed him? I've noticed that a lot with the women, they just seem to fall at Shep's feet, and the poor man obviously has to reciprocate otherwise he might offend their culture that results in a diplomatic incident! :eek: So really he had no choice but to kiss her. Shep certainly couldn't afford the wrath of ascended beings aswell as the Wraith now could he? I think that with that one little kiss he's actually disproven FAII's theory and by that one simple act has redeemed himself. Don't you think so? :P

Linzi
November 9th, 2007, 12:32 PM
Men!! They really don't have much stamina do they? ;)

Personally I thought Teer was the intergalactic little hussy, did you note Linz, it was her who kissed him? I've noticed that a lot with the women, they just seem to fall at Shep's feet, and the poor man obviously has to reciprocate otherwise he might offend their culture that results in a diplomatic incident! :eek: So really he had no choice but to kiss her. Shep certainly couldn't afford the wrath of ascended beings aswell as the Wraith now could he? I think that with that one little kiss he's actually disproven FAII's theory and by that one simple act has redeemed himself. Don't you think so? :P
Oh yes, I do. In fact, I think Sheppard is the victim here. What's a guy to do when alien women throw themselves at his feet? Reject them and cause an intergalactic diplomatic incident? Oh, no. Shep would take one for the Atlantis expedition, that's the selfless kind of man he is. Take note, guys... ;)

Pegasus_SGA
November 9th, 2007, 12:41 PM
Oh yes, I do. In fact, I think Sheppard is the victim here. What's a guy to do when alien women throw themselves at his feet? Reject them and cause an intergalactic diplomatic incident? Oh, no. Shep would take one for the Atlantis expedition, that's the selfless kind of man he is. Take note, guys... ;)

Oh I agree, we need to start a SOS thread, his virtue needs saving I fear from all the women that keep throwing themselves at his feet! OMG, i've just had a thought!! We need to keep those little hussies in the ep, because they're doing just what we want... well not exactly, but think about it, all their weight on shep's feet! That's gotta be painful. :eek: And I think it just goes to show how creative the writers are being in their whumping shep. :P

Actually Linz, i'm going to have to disagree with you on your last bit, taking one, is what got him into this mess to begin with!! ;) But looking at everything holistically, I think his one... or maybe multiple self sacrificing acts, ;) and avoiding what I know could potentially be a diplomatic incident, he's actually created an extreemly useful ally. I think Teer owes him one! ;) Well it's always nice to reciprocate these kind of gestures isn't it? :P

Linzi
November 9th, 2007, 01:54 PM
Oh I agree, we need to start a SOS thread, his virtue needs saving I fear from all the women that keep throwing themselves at his feet! OMG, i've just had a thought!! We need to keep those little hussies in the ep, because they're doing just what we want... well not exactly, but think about it, all their weight on shep's feet! That's gotta be painful. :eek: And I think it just goes to show how creative the writers are being in their whumping shep. :P

Actually Linz, i'm going to have to disagree with you on your last bit, taking one, is what got him into this mess to begin with!! ;) But looking at everything holistically, I think his one... or maybe multiple self sacrificing acts, ;) and avoiding what I know could potentially be a diplomatic incident, he's actually created an extreemly useful ally. I think Teer owes him one! ;) Well it's always nice to reciprocate these kind of gestures isn't it? :P
It certainly is. I think it shows why Sheppard SHOULD be in command :)

Pegasus_SGA
November 9th, 2007, 02:07 PM
It certainly is. I think it shows why Sheppard SHOULD be in commandO :)

I think you missed a letter off there ;) I corrected it for you, don't worry. ;) :P :D

Linzi
November 9th, 2007, 02:09 PM
I think you missed a letter off there ;) I corrected it for you, don't worry. ;) :P :D
:lol:

StarSkimmer
December 9th, 2007, 06:41 PM
To start with, I have no problem with promiscuous people. However, when their promiscuity is endaring themselves, others, they are in denial about it (that they are promiscuous) or whatever, I will use the term "Slut". Secondly, just because this colonel happens to be male doesn't mean he's any less of a slut (no, the word "Player" does not exist in my vocabulary).

Also, it has been pointed out that as Sam is now a full bird Colonel, she's now also the Military Command and he's only the Second in Command. Listen carefully now, because this will probably be the only time I say this: I'm glad Sam came to Atlantis. I really am. Because that at least means John's no longer in command, a position I now see that he's clearly unfit for.

I have never really disliked John. I am, after all, an avid supporter of McShep and I have downright defended him in discussions where his judgement and character have been put in question. And also, look at my avatar. He's not my favourite character on Atlantis, but he's not very far down on the list.

However, I had never felt pure hatred for him 'til 4x05 - Travelers. See my companion thread 4x05 - The Most Immature Episode Ever for more about my views on the episode, or as Katie Griffith would call it: Schmeppisode.



:confused: I don't get it. Why do you feel "pure hatred" for Shep? Just because he kissed that woman? I'm a strong Shweir shipper myself, but episodes such as The Tower, Epiphany, and Travelers don't really bug me.

Sure, Shep is a slut. But then, aren't most men? (No offense, guys, I love you all, really... :D) Daniel and Jack weren't exactly angels in SG-1 either... (as Jack put it, Daniel was soon going to have "a girl on every planet", if I remember correctly) do you think that Jack should have never gotten promoted to general because of his, erm, history?

I don't think Shep is unfit for command because of this - even if he was irresponsible for taking um, whatshername into Atlantis (Chaya! Right, that's it) you should hate the writers for that, not Shep - I mean, he is a created character, not a real person.

I still don't get why you hated Shep after Travelers, though - he had a much more serious relationship with Teer (and they didn't just kiss, either), why didn't you hate him then? Like I said, I'm strongly Shweir, so I can understand if it ruins your OTP, but still... hate is a pretty strong word, don't you think? Specially for a TV show character.

As for the Teer issue (as in, Shep "took advantage" of her because she expected him to ascend with her, etc.) I'd just like to point out that he *did* chase away the monster thing, allowing them to ascend in the first place. And when Teer ascended, she didn't seem upset or even *surprised* that Shep wasn't coming along.


Pegasus_SGA
Quote:
Originally Posted by Linzi
It certainly is. I think it shows why Sheppard SHOULD be in commandO

I think you missed a letter off there I corrected it for you, don't worry.

LOL! You guys are baaaad.... :sheppard28: << (Look! Shep approves...)

Replicator Fifth
November 25th, 2008, 05:05 PM
To start with, I have no problem with promiscuous people. However, when their promiscuity is endaring themselves, others, they are in denial about it (that they are promiscuous) or whatever, I will use the term "Slut". Secondly, just because this colonel happens to be male doesn't mean he's any less of a slut (no, the word "Player" does not exist in my vocabulary).

Also, it has been pointed out that as Sam is now a full bird Colonel, she's now also the Military Command and he's only the Second in Command. Listen carefully now, because this will probably be the only time I say this: I'm glad Sam came to Atlantis. I really am. Because that at least means John's no longer in command, a position I now see that he's clearly unfit for.

I have never really disliked John. I am, after all, an avid supporter of McShep and I have downright defended him in discussions where his judgement and character have been put in question. And also, look at my avatar. He's not my favourite character on Atlantis, but he's not very far down on the list.

However, I had never felt pure hatred for him 'til 4x05 - Travelers. See my companion thread 4x05 - The Most Immature Episode Ever for more about my views on the episode, or as Katie Griffith would call it: Schmeppisode.

Let's walk down memory lane, shall we:
Exhibit A - Chaya - Despite what avid Sheppard Thunkers will deny, John showed extremely poor judgement in the handling of Chaya. Before anyone jumps in with "But he just wanted to be friendly with the people with the great technology", let's remind ourselves of the fact that John met Teer after GFI (Genii Fiasco I) and the botched Genii Invasion (GFII). Yet, what does he do when he meets her? He trust every single lie she spouts and not only takes her back to Atlantis, but also tells her what consoles do what (so that it'll be easier for the Genii to control the city should she turn out to be a Genii spy)! And on a side note, he goes on a picnic with her (obviously, this was beyond duty and "Being nice to the locals". This was date with a genuine Alien Priestess here), giving her some of their last supplies of certain delicacies (despite them being cut off from Earth). Yes... ha ha, how romantic. And what does he do when Rodney points out that she isn't to be trusted and that she's lying? He tells him to "Shut up".
Exhibit B - Princess Space Slut - In the endless Suckfest that is "The Tower", John had a little encounter with a gal who "wanted his genes". She drops off all of her clothes to prove this (and thank God this isn't on Showtime any more). Yes, the episode does leave what follows that dropping-of-the-clothes up for speculations and the Defenders of Sheppard constantly point out that John said that he turned down the Princess and the Kingdom, but the line could easily be interpreted to mean that John turned down marriage to the Princess, especially as we "in the know" know that the writers originally planned to confirm that John and the Princess really did the naughty. yes, the writers originally thought it to be a good idea to have John Slut It Up with Random Alien Princess because, really, what guy wouldn't, right? Captive on an alien planet with ruling despots who feast on delicacies while the people are starving and oppressed, what to do? Bang the Alien Princess.
Exhibit C - Teer - People like to point out that John had been stuck in there for six months and yaddi yaddi yadda, but, really, right before Teer told John the bone-chilling news that she'd been telepathically stalking him for months and that she'd had visions since since was a child about him being "The One" (To Take Her Virginity) and that he'd lead them to Ascension and Ascend with them (and really, this is where he had to know she was off her rocker because he knows himself the best. Not to mention the fact that the minute she says "You're the one", he not only assumed but also hoped that she meant "The one to take my virginity/The one I will spend the rest of my life with". And he knew he probably wouldn't spend the rest of her life with her because Ascension's just not his thing, but he hoped that's what she meant because then he'd get some Space Tail (after which he'd abandon her and go back to Atlantis). Also, she's clearly delusional because she thinks he's The One who's not only destined to take her virginity but also destined to spend eternity with her. And what does he do? He bangs the hot alien while he's got the chance. It's almost taking advantage of a less intellectual (read: stupid) person.

While I hated those three episodes, they didn't make me hate the character of John Sheppard. Hell, I only considered it to be a small character flaw.

Also, the Protectors of Sheppard will claim that these are just three (now four) little moments in time throughout 3 (now 3 + a few weeks) years of his life. However, why is it that out of every single member on Altantis John is the only guy who's ever gotten to make out with people (under amicable circumstances) or had scenes indicating he got laid?! And not just once but now four times. If you're claiming that John just made four misteps during his time on Atlantis, then you must also be claiming that no one else on Atlantis has had sex in 3+ years of time. It's a special thing when a single character Kirks themselves four times in three+ seasons.

And then the Suckfest that is Travelers happened (again, see my companion thread). I must be Teer, only better (because you know, I'm not delusional) because I knew what would happen the moment Laryn said "Be a shame to have to do too much damage" in reference to John's face.

And happen it did, towards the end, Colonel Space Slut inexplicably (or is that "expectedly" given his track record) decides to start making out with Laryn right after telling a Wraith to run off to his Dart and go home. What the Hell was that Bimbo (and I'm referring to John here) thinking?! Here's the woman who'd tortured you earlier (multiple times), who'd threatened to kill you repteadly and you're currently in a hostile situation. Yet, the moment she ends up pressed up to you and starts batting her eyelashes at you, you decide it's a good idea to start making out?!

And how engrossed wasn't he in the make-out session if his reflexes were too slow to punch her in the face the minute he felt her yank the stunner out of his back pocket?! This was obviously a man who was expecting to get some Intergalactic Tail and therefore ignored all reason and let all his defenses drop.

Not to mention the fact that a Wraith had just been there! He could rush in and bumrush John at any moment (and how prepared would he have been to stun him?!) or maybe he sprinted back to the Dart and got some more stunners and would be back any second to bum-stun.

And really, this is after three years of experience with the galaxy, with people like the Chaya, Genii, Dagan and the Asurans that should've taught John to not start randomly trusting people randomly just because they have a high level of technology or are hot!

This was, of course, followed by John "omitting" some facts from his mission report/debriefing/whatever as the rest of the team didn't know he had decided on an impromptu make-out session. Good show, Colonel. You're pushing 40, who were once in command of the most important expedition in human history and you're supposedly a role model to your men but you have no problems lying when the truth would give you minus points in status (I very much doubt that the homophobic and partiarcal American Military would punish him for getting some Space Tail).

At first I was afraid, I was petrified when I learned that Sam would not only take over control of the city but also control of the military contingent. After Travelers, however, I'm glad.

Who knows what kind of disasters Colonel Space Slut could've created by randomly deciding to throw caution to the wind and start making out while the Wraith were on the loose!

I can't wait for the next time the writers decide to write a new episode to eventually be featured on a special DVD called Stargate Atlantis - The Major-Colonel-Whatever Space Slut Chronicles.

So what are you views of John's actions in these four episodes, but especially Travelers?

I'm trying to keep it positive[/b], [i]trying not to get upset[/b], I'm positive, but I'm really pissed at that [i]brunette. I really feel like slapping him to the floor, pulling his hair and calling him whore.
The above sentence is a reference to "Legally Blonde - the Musical"

Bravo!! :zelenka25: