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BobTheWrath
October 28th, 2007, 12:07 AM
Remember way back when that one Genii from season one, not kolya or the girl, but the one from star trek, talked about he Genii once being a confederation of many races with advance techs and what not. When Larrin said that they once had the ability to make more ships, could it be possible that the Travelers once were part of the confederation?

jds1982
October 28th, 2007, 01:49 AM
Kinda was thinking that myself.

Xaeden
October 28th, 2007, 02:41 AM
Could be, but I'm more interested in knowing when that confederation took place and how long have the Travelers been building ships for. I have this sneaking suspicion that perhaps the more advanced Humans in the galaxy were helping the Ancients fight the Wraith during the war and after the Ancients left the Travelers just wandered around trying to survive.

Redhooks
October 28th, 2007, 11:52 AM
I agree that more history on the Travelers should have been given or at least hinted at better. With them only being in one more episode this year (BAMSR) I don't think we will know any more of their history this season. :(

garhkal
October 28th, 2007, 02:08 PM
Kinda was thinking that myself.

Same here. Heck i mentioned it in the Travelers general thread..

WingedPegasus
October 28th, 2007, 05:30 PM
Remember way back when that one Genii from season one, not kolya or the girl, but the one from star trek, talked about he Genii once being a confederation of many races with advance techs and what not. When Larrin said that they once had the ability to make more ships, could it be possible that the Travelers once were part of the confederation?

Huh, maybe. Good thought. BTW, I think the guy's name was Cowen. ;)

Vapor
October 28th, 2007, 07:53 PM
Yes, it was Cowen.

I just got through mentioning that it'd be cool to see the three groups form an uneasy alliance to pull off some incredibly huge operation. But, now that I've heard this thought of the Travelers having once been part of a larger confederation with the Genii, it just makes the idea that much cooler.

SaberBlade
October 29th, 2007, 01:15 AM
I think the Genii being connected to the Travellers is interesting, but I can't really see it. What I can't see is the Genii and the Travellers being part of the space race. The Genii couldn't even master radiation shielding for their atomic weapons programs, and on top of that it took them god knows how many years to develop the weapons.

I don't think they would have technologically regressed knowing that their technology could be the only thing that saves them. Their scientists would have ended up working on bigger and better things which is what the Travellers seemed to do.

The Genii and the Travellers at some point being part of a alliance (like the four great races but less advanced) is interesting and it would open the door to a vist the Genii, their history and whatnot while learning more about the human life in Atlantis.

Say it turned out that Athosians built the ruined city and not Ancients (because we need something in the plot to relate to Atlantis in one way), then it adds to more backstory for the Athosians and why they were originally friends with the Genii. I do think this confederation deserves more exploration. Who knows, maybe the Genii along with the Athosians both regressed to a more primative state.

FallenAngelII
October 29th, 2007, 01:52 AM
Say it turned out that Athosians built the ruined city and not Ancients (because we need something in the plot to relate to Atlantis in one way), then it adds to more backstory for the Athosians and why they were originally friends with the Genii. I do think this confederation deserves more exploration. Who knows, maybe the Genii along with the Athosians both regressed to a more primative state.
Wow, the Athosians must really have gone senile at some point if they not only forgot about how they were the ones who built that city on Athos (as Teyla clearly states that it was built by "The Ancestors") or that the Genii weren't on the same technological level as Earth's Amish people (as Teyla was clearly surprised when it was revealed that they weren't).

Prior_of_the_Ori
October 29th, 2007, 03:58 AM
An interesting idea though personally I can't really see it. Though I do agree that the Confederation of the Genii worlds history should be explained more. Personally, I think that world where the Taranans went to in season 3, the one where Michael made his bug people, might have been a Genii world because the people employed the exact same defensive mechanism as the Genii which is building a large underground bunker.

I think a more interesting avenue for the future storyline is perhaps an alliance forming between the Genii and the Travelers. The Genii provide food and supplies from their worlds as well as covert operations while the Travelers provide technology and space travel. Would be cool to see....

SaberBlade
October 29th, 2007, 05:34 AM
Wow, the Athosians must really have gone senile at some point if they not only forgot about how they were the ones who built that city on Athos (as Teyla clearly states that it was built by "The Ancestors") or that the Genii weren't on the same technological level as Earth's Amish people (as Teyla was clearly surprised when it was revealed that they weren't).

Well they are Athosians. These are the same people who wanted to return home even after being told their planet was completely scorched and life wouldn't return. They aren't exactly known for common sense either, as I do believe they wanted to stay on the mainland during "The Storm". Plus its always easier for them to blame the Ancestors for building an Outpost that drew the Wraith instead of just accepting they did it themselves. Eat a few people, vaporise a few buildings and who knows what you could make people believe.

jds1982
October 29th, 2007, 10:53 AM
I don't think the Genii purposely regressed, I'm sure the Wraith blasting the crap out of their civilization might have something to do with it. I imagine the travellers ancestors were in space when any attacks happened, and they ran away so they wouldn't be slaughtered. Whereas the Genii were stuck on a planet with a destroyed infrastructure and slowly had to regain knowledge.

Ltcolshepjumper
October 29th, 2007, 12:58 PM
Remember way back when that one Genii from season one, not kolya or the girl, but the one from star trek, talked about he Genii once being a confederation of many races with advance techs and what not. When Larrin said that they once had the ability to make more ships, could it be possible that the Travelers once were part of the confederation?

I think its very much possible. they're styles are similar. Maybe the Travelers decided to pursue space travel isntead of going underground like the genii. It would explain why their ships are so rusted. They also act the same.

Heaven
October 29th, 2007, 01:02 PM
I don't think the Genii were that advanced in their height
remember their bunker city is supposedly from their old civilization, and it doesn't seem that advanced at all
the fact that they had a confederation that consisted of many planets doesn't necessarily mean they were technologically advanced

Ltcolshepjumper
October 29th, 2007, 01:04 PM
I'm not saying that. What if the Travelers were once on the level of the Genii?

Dalario
October 29th, 2007, 07:11 PM
The Genii couldn't even master radiation shielding for their atomic weapons programs.


Well, their civilization have been destroyed, even if some people survived, I don't think they would remember how to build spaceships or nuclear weapon... Imagine earth getting destroyed tomorrow, even if you were in a bunker and managed to survive, I don't think you would be able to create a nuclear bomb...

Vapor
October 29th, 2007, 07:45 PM
Well, their civilization have been destroyed, even if some people survived, I don't think they would remember how to build spaceships or nuclear weapon... Imagine earth getting destroyed tomorrow, even if you were in a bunker and managed to survive, I don't think you would be able to create a nuclear bomb...

Agreed. I think it's still possible that the Genii and the Travellers were once close to being technological equals, but the Genii were nearly obliterated, and the few people (almost all of them civilians who were hiding) had to start over and do their best with what little they had to carry on.

Why would regular civilians with regular jobs know about how to build spaceships and beam-weapons? Especially after they all died and their kids and grandkids had to survive off of the bare essentials they had left.

And that's only including those that didn't just simply leave and assimilate into some other planet somewhere far away.

Ltcolshepjumper
October 30th, 2007, 12:46 PM
You're going on the idea of the Genii degrading from the Travelers' level, right?

Because I would argue that it would be much more plausible if the Travelers advanced from the Genii's level.

FallenAngelII
October 30th, 2007, 12:49 PM
You do not go from Travelers-level to Genii-level just because the Wraith cull you. For that to happen, they'd have had to have culled every single scientist on the Genii homeworld and destroyed every single piece of storage equipment and book on technology at the same time.

Redhooks
October 30th, 2007, 12:54 PM
The Genii's confederation could just have been planets with Stargates that formed an alliance in brief periods between Wraith culling cycles. None of them had to have technology to go into space. I think Paul Mullie errored in not giving us a better explanation of the Travelers history. Of course that would have left less time for the action portion of the episode. The biggest oversite to me is Sheppard not talking to Ronon about the Travelers having the same type of energy pistol as he does. Maybe in another episode, but I doubt it.

Xaeden
October 30th, 2007, 01:58 PM
You do not go from Travelers-level to Genii-level just because the Wraith cull you. For that to happen, they'd have had to have culled every single scientist on the Genii homeworld and destroyed every single piece of storage equipment and book on technology at the same time.

Unfortunately, the Wraith don't just cull technologically advanced planets, they bombard them. The people in Poisoning the Well only saved their knowledge by building identical vaults throughout the city that were well fortified and held all their knowledge (incase some were destroyed others would still exist). Without the same preperation another race could've easily lost the bulk of their knowledge. Survivors of such an attack would be busy just trying to continue living with food being rare. By the time they managed to rebuild anything of value more knowledge that they held only in their memories could be lost and overall, without proper schools and tools to teach the next generation a couple of scientists who survived are not going to be able to give them what they need to go back to building advanced technology such as spaceships. Eventually those people would die and at best people would have various scribblings and some texts that they cannot make complete sense of.

Of course, I don't buy into the idea that the Genii could once built spaceships, but it's not impossible that a once advanced civilization would be reduced to even a village environment and have to build themselves back up. Look at Ronon's people - There were only 300 survivors and they all fled to various village planets. Even if they returned to their planet after the culling how far do you think they would get with the ruins that remained? Anything of technological significance was probably among the first targets for their fire and rebuilding to their previous level without proper man power, all their previous knowledge, and various resources would be impossible.

Vapor
October 30th, 2007, 07:30 PM
You do not go from Travelers-level to Genii-level just because the Wraith cull you.

It's pretty well established that the Wraith would pretty much try to wipe out any race with sufficient technology to escape/harm them in any significant way. It's not beyond the realm of possibility that they would do more than just go eat a few of them. They would want to erase them altogether.

ciannwn
November 23rd, 2007, 08:53 AM
I think Paul Mullie errored in not giving us a better explanation of the Travelers history. Of course that would have left less time for the action portion of the episode.

I think the lack of history could be a case of 'Leave it vague so we can make it up as we go along". :)

Was the Pegasus galaxy and everything in it planned out in detail before the scriptwriters even started writing anything? The following from the Production section for 'Travellers' gives me the distinct impression it wasn't.

One of the nice things about SG-1, for instance, is that we'd be able to go off-world and encounter technologically advanced people as well as low-tech people. But the problem with Atlantis in the Pegasus Galaxy is we said that whenever a race would get technologically advanced the Wraith would come in and wipe them out. So there was never opportunity for a race to reach that level.

"So we decided, actually there is a way: We'll just put them in ships. And so there's an armada of ships that go from planet to planet. They come down and scavenge the leftovers of societies that have been culled by the Wraith.


It would be nice to have explanations for the following -

When did Larrin's ancestors become technologically advanced enough to have space ships? After all, a lot of societies in Lantean times were being manipulated via 'The Game' - the one we saw in that story had been technologically primitive for 10,000 years because the planet's inhabitants were waiting for their Oracle to tell them what to do next.

Nola answering the question about Wraith attacks -

They’ve come periodically -- culled our people, destroyed our villages. Those who survived rebuilt, but only to the level at which the Oracle had instructed before he left. We found ourselves stalled in our development, unwilling to push forward without the Oracle’s guidance, hoping one day he would return to us.

Did the Travellers develop space travel before the war with the Wraith, during it or were they just very lucky in that the Wraith didn't find them while they were becoming technologically advanced? If it was before the war, were the Travellers part of 'The Game' experiment and their society was pushed forward quickly to provide a comparison with results of much slower development?

Larrin says "Our fleet is old. There was a time when we had the resources to build new ships, but now we don't. When we lose one, it's gone for good,"

It's very clear here that the Travellers were able to build their own ships at one time. Where were their shipyards? The society in 'The Ark' managed to construct a space station inside their moon and two shuttles but this isn't the same thing at all as building an armada which can transport a lot of people around the galaxy. When did they lose the resources to build new ships and how?

Redhooks
November 23rd, 2007, 10:41 AM
I think the lack of history could be a case of 'Leave it vague so we can make it up as we go along". :)

Was the Pegasus galaxy and everything in it planned out in detail before the scriptwriters even started writing anything? The following from the Production section for 'Travellers' gives me the distinct impression it wasn't.

One of the nice things about SG-1, for instance, is that we'd be able to go off-world and encounter technologically advanced people as well as low-tech people. But the problem with Atlantis in the Pegasus Galaxy is we said that whenever a race would get technologically advanced the Wraith would come in and wipe them out. So there was never opportunity for a race to reach that level.

"So we decided, actually there is a way: We'll just put them in ships. And so there's an armada of ships that go from planet to planet. They come down and scavenge the leftovers of societies that have been culled by the Wraith.

I definitely think they producers make this stuff up as they go along and don't have a planned five-year arc like Babylon 5 had which was one of the strengths of that show to me. Also, it had one person, J. Michael Straczynski, guiding the whole thing and writing the majority of the episodes. I don't think any of the writers or producers on SG-1 or SGA have his level of writing talent. The lack of a plan is the biggest weakness to SGA to me and the minimal Travelers backstory may have done on purpose so that the writers could make up something later even though that hasn't stopped them from re-writing canon (i.e. Larrin being able to use a LSD without having the ATA gene) as they go along. Having watched Travelers a couple of times in the last few days, I noticed that Paul Mullie made interesting choices of what to explain (Sheppard turning on the ship's intercom from the control chair to talk to Larrin) and what not to explain (Wraith Cruisers launching darts and Sheppard not detecting them from the control chair, Larrin using the LSD, Sheppard falling for Larrin's kissing ploy, Sheppard being able to avoid Wraith darts firing on him in Rising with very little time/experience in a jumper and yet three years later, he made no attempt to evade the Travelers ship after they fired the first shot, and Sheppard not telling Ronon about the Travelers having the same type of energy pistol as he does.)


It would be nice to have explanations for the following -

When did Larrin's ancestors become technologically advanced enough to have space ships? After all, a lot of societies in Lantean times were being manipulated via 'The Game' - the one we saw in that story had been technologically primitive for 10,000 years because the planet's inhabitants were waiting for their Oracle to tell them what to do next.

Nola answering the question about Wraith attacks -

They’ve come periodically -- culled our people, destroyed our villages. Those who survived rebuilt, but only to the level at which the Oracle had instructed before he left. We found ourselves stalled in our development, unwilling to push forward without the Oracle’s guidance, hoping one day he would return to us.

Did the Travellers develop space travel before the war with the Wraith, during it or were they just very lucky in that the Wraith didn't find them while they were becoming technologically advanced? If it was before the war, were the Travellers part of 'The Game' experiment and their society was pushed forward quickly to provide a comparison with results of much slower development?

Larrin says "Our fleet is old. There was a time when we had the resources to build new ships, but now we don't. When we lose one, it's gone for good,"

It's very clear here that the Travellers were able to build their own ships at one time. Where were their shipyards? The society in 'The Ark' managed to construct a space station inside their moon and two shuttles but this isn't the same thing at all as building an armada which can transport a lot of people around the galaxy. When did they lose the resources to build new ships and how?
I think Mullie tried to explain some of it (Sheppard mentioning to Larrin at the end that the Travelers being "able to survive for thousands of years",) but didn't do it very well in my opinion because there was not enough time due to the stupid decision to set up this relationship between Sheppard and Larrin with all the sexual tension and banter. Even though I am a fan of Jill Wagner's and enjoyed seeing her in a different show than the crap-fest that was Blade: The Series, I still think this is the weakest episode so far this year due to some bad writing and creative decisions. What is sad to me is this episode held the most promise before the season aired for interesting information about how people, and the Travelers in particular, survived the cullings of the Wraith since the Ancients abandoned the Pegasus galaxy 10,000 years ago.

ciannwn
November 23rd, 2007, 11:24 AM
I think Mullie tried to explain some of it (Sheppard mentioning to Larrin at the end that the Travelers being "able to survive for thousands of years",) but didn't do it very well in my opinion

I've just looked at the transcript.

SHEPPARD: You've been running and hiding for thousands of years.

All this tells us is that the Travellers developed their advanced technology a long time ago.


because there was not enough time due to the stupid decision to set up this relationship between Sheppard and Larrin with all the sexual tension and banter.

Maybe they thought that was more important than providing some real history. On the other hand, maybe it was a way to avoid giving us any details. :)

Cynical me sees 'Travellers' planning on the following lines -

After the decision to 'just put them in ships' they wanted a story where Sheppard is kidnapped by the hot female alien in a low cut leather top.

Q: Why does she kidnap Sheppard?
A: They've found an Ancient warship and she needs him for his Ancient gene.

Q: If Travellers don't have the Ancient gene where did they get their ships from? Their ancestors couldn't have found Ancient ships in the past and taken possession.
A: They built their own ships.

Q: If they can build their own ships, why do they need this Ancient warship?
A: We'll throw in something vague on the lines of them no longer having the resources to build ships.


What is sad to me is this episode held the most promise before the season aired for interesting information about how people, and the Travelers in particular, survived the cullings of the Wraith since the Ancients abandoned the Pegasus galaxy 10,000 years ago.

We've yet to learn how the Lanteans were responsible for the Wraith's emergence as a species, how and where Wraith built their ships (hives, darts, battle cruisers etc.) and what this 'life force' is that they feed on. Seeing as we're now into the 4th season it's hardly unusual that we didn't learn anything much about the Travellers in their very first episode.

asdf1239
March 30th, 2010, 01:35 PM
how can ships smaller than 304s hold an entire race. it just seems illogical to me