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    Death Counts

    I've been watching B5 again. Well I recently finished up the entire series. It TOOK forever and a day to do this but it was worthwhile.

    My only question now is why are the death counts always so low? I mean the entire Narn home world is destroyed and the deaths are in the millions.... The Earth-Minbari war only sees a few million human causalities. I don't understand that figure since the outer colonies were totally destroyed and so were all human ships. One would think that that death count would rise into the tens of millions. I mean come on 25-30 million Russians died during WWII.

    Even the Drakh battle should have had 100,000 to a million human causalities. I think it said 250 destroyers were lost and even if 100 people man a destroyer (unlikely) then that is at least 100,000+ deaths. Some might have made it out during the evacuation call.

    #2
    My friend mentioned that to me recently and I paid no attention to him. You and him bring a good points about the death count though. The figures seem a little lopsided.

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      #3
      in terms of the earth/minbari war though keep in mind that they only attacked the colonies, when really the two largest earth populations are on earth and mars. I'd expect on most colonies there'd only be about half a million at most.
      Please do me a huge favour and help me be with the love of my life.

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        #4
        ^That's a fair point. If the Minbari had ever attacked Earth, casualties would've been much higher.

        Narns had been living in pretty miserable conditions since the Centauri occupation ended. I would hazard a guess that the Narn population decreased dramatically during and after the desertification of the planet.
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          #5
          somehow i think maths wasn't the writer strong point when it comes down to triva

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            #6
            Well the Minbari were working on the caste system, they'd kill a colonies defenders (warriors) and then move on, they wouldn't just totally annihalate a colony.
            All that is necessary for the triumph of evil is that good men do nothing-Edmund Burke

            The question which once haunted my being has been answered. The future is not fixed, and my choices are my own... and yet, how ironic! For I now find, I have no choice at all! I am warrior... let the battle be joined.-Dinobot-Code of Hero

            Don't blame me, I voted Cthulhu

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              #7
              Originally posted by jds1982 View Post
              Well the Minbari were working on the caste system, they'd kill a colonies defenders (warriors) and then move on, they wouldn't just totally annihalate a colony.
              If you remember the B5 movie that had Londo narrating it shows that all humans especially able body males were fighting the Minbari. Even fighting the Minbari in hand to hand combat. Also all ships capable of fighting were going against the Minbari even though they were being destroyed. And the only way to keep the death count in the low millions is if each destroyer carries less than 100 crew members.

              These were built after the Earth Minbari War but JMS says that the Omega class destroyer is 1.7 km and that is over a mile long. He also says that this great machine can run with only 360 people but can also hold 1,000 crew members. I assume there is room for ground troops. It also carries 36 Starfuries so at minimum compacity 10% of the crew is just Starfury pilots. Now call me crazy but Starfuries need specialized maintenance crews and generally you would have more than one man backing up the Starfury so even if its just two mechanics per Starfury then you are looking at what 30% of your crew dedicated to keeping the Starfury either in working order or running missions. Then you need the maintenance crews to keep the destroyer running and that does not get into the specialists needed to run each station in a mile long ship. How many people are needed to maintain the energy weapons? How many people are needed to maintain the propulsion system. His numbers are just too low in my opinion.

              The great thing about B5 that most political decisions and social interactions were realistic. A planet like Earth with 10 billion humans would most likely have more than 50 million people in its global army. That is just 0.5% of the global population. Most current major powers have a higher percentage in their military and when at war the percentage would increase. I just think his numbers are low.

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                #8
                Yep, what jds said, they really only attacked the military portions of the population. And also as P-90 said, they really only attacked some of the outer colonies. They completely bypassed Mars, the most populated Earth colony, and never actually attacked Earth itself. So I'd say they're numbers were fairly reasonable.

                As for the Drakh battle, I think those numbers came from the Crusade episode "War Zone" which I personally don't put much faith in. JMS from the beginning that he wanted to start the series 6 months into the Excalibur's mission but TNT wanted him to make a pilot episode that would give background information on both the characters and the main plot. JMS himself doesn't even consider the episode as canon.
                Folding@Home|Babylon 5 Canon Guide

                Delenn: This is Ambassador Delenn of the Minbari. Babylon 5 is under our protection. Withdraw,...or be destroyed.
                Earth Captain: Negative. We have authority here. Do not force us to engage your ship.
                Delenn: Why not? Only one human captain has ever survived battle with a Minbari fleet. He is behind me. You are in front of me. If you value your lives, be somewhere else.
                --Babylon 5 - "Severed Dreams"

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                  #9
                  Originally posted by Xicer View Post
                  Yep, what jds said, they really only attacked the military portions of the population. And also as P-90 said, they really only attacked some of the outer colonies. They completely bypassed Mars, the most populated Earth colony, and never actually attacked Earth itself. So I'd say they're numbers were fairly reasonable.

                  As for the Drakh battle, I think those numbers came from the Crusade episode "War Zone" which I personally don't put much faith in. JMS from the beginning that he wanted to start the series 6 months into the Excalibur's mission but TNT wanted him to make a pilot episode that would give background information on both the characters and the main plot. JMS himself doesn't even consider the episode as canon.
                  Don't get me wrong I understand that JMS lays down the law in all things B5 but I just think his numbers are low.

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                    #10
                    FEMA actually does its job in the future

                    the alien version of FEMA is even more competent

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                      #11
                      I thought this too.

                      In fact, I have this problem in general with scifi. On Star Trek for instance they mention "thousands" of people dying during the Cardassian war. Hah. I realize that Galaxy class ships weren't around back then, but they carry over 1000 crew members at all times. The smaller ships that were around still carried 500+. That alone would mean billions of deaths in all likelyhood. Think of how many civilian freighters a civ like the federation must have.

                      And even then, I'm flabbergasted that any writer would think that an interstellar war between two mammoth civilizations that each control millions of star systems (not all inhabited, and not all with planets, but still) would be engaged in with only a few hundred ships. They have 100+ max population earthlike worlds in the Federation, not including countless colony worlds and outposts. And you can have asteroid mining posts and shipyards even in the dead systems, even in systems with no planets.

                      And they only had a couple hundred military vessels? (sorry, not military ships. Science ships with a torpedo tube duct taped onto the side) Ahahahaha. Bad bad bad writing.

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                        #12
                        I'm just thinking that interstellar war would be too unprofitable to pursue for long. So they'd have ships for defense, but not necessarily all that many for attack. Smaller planets would be left with a planetary defense grid and some fighters, they just couldn't afford to have ships in permanent orbit around any except the mother worlds, in additions to squadrons in space that would be sent to any trouble spot fairly quickly (within weeks).
                        sigpic

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                          #13
                          Originally posted by gopher65 View Post
                          In fact, I have this problem in general with scifi. On Star Trek for instance they mention "thousands" of people dying during the Cardassian war. Hah. I realize that Galaxy class ships weren't around back then, but they carry over 1000 crew members at all times. The smaller ships that were around still carried 500+. That alone would mean billions of deaths in all likelyhood.
                          This obliquely brings up something almost all TV shows and movies have gotten wrong ever since it became fashionable to have great big explosions:

                          In war, to "destroy" something, all you have to do is destroy its ability to fight or move. Those massive explosions are nonsense, just like automobiles blowing up in huge fireballs are nonsense. But movies and TV shows aren't made for military personnel, they're made for civilians, and civilians want massive destruction and huge death tolls so they can feel secure in their moral superiority. Shows rarely mention wounded, because civilians only care about killed. The rare script that does usually bases the numbers on an actual historic battle.

                          If you're looking for it in Babylon 5 (and to a lesser degree Star Trek), the ongoing behind-the-scenes argument gets kind of comical: In some episodes a ship is taken out by disabling its propulsion and weapons. (And there are lifepods.) In others we see fires (e.g. B5's "Severed Dreams"). And in others there are the cliche big explosions and debris clouds.

                          An offshoot of the "Explosions! We need explosions! Explosions! Whee!" school of entertainment is that everything is equipped with a self-destruct device. Oh my, my unarmed merchant ship is being overrun by pirates. I know, I'll set the self-destruct and blow it up and kill all the pirates! Bwahahaha! --Absolute nonsense. And if people can't figure out five or ten reasons why blowing a ship or building to smithereens is stupid, I despair for them.

                          Think of how many civilian freighters a civ like the federation must have.
                          Not sure what this has to do with the issue.

                          And even then, I'm flabbergasted that any writer would think that an interstellar war between two mammoth civilizations that each control millions of star systems (not all inhabited, and not all with planets, but still) would be engaged in with only a few hundred ships.
                          Because ships of war must be built and equipped and shaken down, and must travel to mission sites. Because many are set to guard detail; only a few are out looking for trouble. Because people need to figure out how to build it all and fly it all and mend it all when it goes wrong (which it constantly does). It takes time and strategy, and no one who cares likes to lose.

                          They have 100+ max population earthlike worlds in the Federation, not including countless colony worlds and outposts. And you can have asteroid mining posts and shipyards even in the dead systems, even in systems with no planets.

                          And they only had a couple hundred military vessels? (sorry, not military ships. Science ships with a torpedo tube duct taped onto the side) Ahahahaha. Bad bad bad writing.
                          Someone has to turn the raw materials into ships and engines and guns and (if your universe has them) shields. That takes people and time, and it has to be paid for. People just don't want to work when they're starving, threadbare, or injured, no matter how big an honor they're told it is; in fact, they often just want to die so it will be over.

                          And many of the people you need are usually already engaged in the trade--the specialists, the engineers, the designers. (The analysts, the linguists, the sergeants, the colonels...) You can't siphon them off, so where do you get more? Most people wouldn't dream of signing up: "It's not my war." "It'll be over any day now, so why bother?" "I want to stay home." "Maybe my neighborhood will be ignored if we stay quiet." "I wasn't asked in a way that appealed to me." "I have to protect my property." "I can make better money in my current job." And those newbies you do get have to learn how to do it. It takes a lot of time just to get the unskilled workers trained. It takes years, often decades, to train more specialists.

                          For reality in your writing, pick a historic war. Or pick a current war and ask what changes did I make in my life? How have I helped to bring a speedy peace? How many military funerals have I attended? How many wounded am I helping to adapt to their new lives?
                          Last edited by Wordsmit2; 24 October 2007, 04:33 PM.
                          Wordsmit2

                          The story of my life. I finally find a city like this, intact, deserted for ten thousand years, probably contains hundreds of patents that I can exploit--and I'm going to die. I can appreciate dramatic irony as much as the next person, but this is pushing it a bit. --Max Eilerson, Crusade "War Zone"

                          Mess with me, you mess with my whole family. --Max Eilerson, Crusade "Ruling From the Tomb"

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                            #14
                            I think the assumption here is that if a spaceship blows up, everyone on board dies. A few may escape in pods, but certainly those too would be vulnerable to enemy fighters.

                            Today, if a particular battle has a casualty rate of 10%, it's considered a major disaster. In some battles during the American Civil War, over 30% of troops were killed.
                            sigpic

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                              #15
                              I'm guessing every ship whether in B5 or ST only has the needed crew onboard which reduces the casualties. for example in ST during the Dominion war even the Galaxy class ships wouldn't have a crew of 1000+ since they were fighting and thus didn't need scientists and other personnel. just wanted to add this
                              sigpic
                              The Sam Carter/Amanda Tapping Thunk thread The Sam/RepliCarter Ship Thread

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