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Jsmith45
October 6th, 2007, 01:02 PM
As we know, the McKay-Carter Intergalactic Gate Bridge works by a macro. The first gate dials the second gate, but the second gate does not open a wormhole. but merely establishing the connections between the hyperspacial buffers. So a person enters the event horizon and is stored in the first gates buffer. They are transfered to the second gates buffer. The connection between the gates is terminated, terminating the connection between the hyperspacial buffers. The second gate dials the third gate, but no event horizon is formed. The people are transfered to the next buffer. This repeats until the gate at midway where a half-wormhole (event horizon) is formed. When the people arrive at the buffer of this last gate, they emerge through the event horizon. this process takes some time and is definitely not instantaneous.

But in S04E01, Apollo engages in real-time communication with midway via the pegasus-side stargate. The only logical explanation is that they used a ZPM to direct dial that stargate (a zpm would be needed because of the distance, but it is a pegasus gate, so the special control crystal of Atlantis should not be needed). Otherwise, the communication would be delayed as the gates called each other to pass the transmission between hyperspacial buffers.

But Apollo does not have a ZPM that I am aware of, so what is going on?

(As for normal operation of the bridge, It is interesting to note that only 2 half-wormholes are created, the rest being hyperspacial connections. This is important because the kwoosh would otherwise empty the hyperspacial buffer. )

P-90_177
October 6th, 2007, 02:05 PM
i don't think they were using the gate. (could be wrong. would have to re-watch the eppy.) but were using their subspace communication system which is practically instantaneous.

Sicktem
October 6th, 2007, 02:12 PM
No they dialed in. Carter even asked them how they were contacting them since the planet Atlantis was headed to didn't have a Stargate and they traveled to a nearby world.

Reign
October 6th, 2007, 02:12 PM
Wasn't the Apollo given one of the ZPMs? They had 3 after taking back Atlantis from the replicators and Rodney wanted to keep all 3 but was told that they couldn't and one had to be sent back to earth and I thought the other was given to the apollo. I could be wrong, I'd have to rewatch again.

Mattathias2.0
October 6th, 2007, 02:18 PM
I wasn't aware that in order to connect to a gate within the same network needed a ZPM. Last I checked, a gate activated on one end of the galaxy can create a stable wormhole with another one at the other side, which is a huge amount of distance.

So, why the need for a ZPM?

P-90_177
October 6th, 2007, 02:18 PM
Wasn't the Apollo given one of the ZPMs? They had 3 after taking back Atlantis from the replicators and Rodney wanted to keep all 3 but was told that they couldn't and one had to be sent back to earth and I thought the other was given to the apollo. I could be wrong, I'd have to rewatch again.

no. one was given to the earth outpost, one to atlantis and the third to the odyssey.

Jsmith45
October 6th, 2007, 02:27 PM
I wasn't aware that in order to connect to a gate within the same network needed a ZPM. Last I checked, a gate activated on one end of the galaxy can create a stable wormhole with another one at the other side, which is a huge amount of distance.

So, why the need for a ZPM?

Because the distance to midway is far far larger than the diameter of a galaxy. Thats the whole reason the Gate bridge consists of 34 gates, 17 Milky way, 17
Pegasus. If they could direct connect to midway, only one gate for each would be needed, located at midway.

FallenAngelII
October 7th, 2007, 10:36 AM
Because the distance to midway is far far larger than the diameter of a galaxy. Thats the whole reason the Gate bridge consists of 34 gates, 17 Milky way, 17
Pegasus. If they could direct connect to midway, only one gate for each would be needed, located at midway.
Which is also the answer here. The Apollo dialed into the first gate in the galactic bridge, a feat that doesn't require a ZPM. Said gate then dialed the next and then that gate did the same and voila, connection to the bridge.

Ace
October 7th, 2007, 10:44 AM
The Apollo obviously has the macro needed to dial the Intergalactic Bridge to reach the gateway station. All they would need to do is put the ship in orbit of a planet that does have a stargate and dial it.

Ace

Sicktem
October 7th, 2007, 11:05 AM
The Apollo obviously has the macro needed to dial the Intergalactic Bridge to reach the gateway station. All they would need to do is put the ship in orbit of a planet that does have a stargate and dial it.

Ace

Nobody's denying that they could've have dialed the gateway station by modifying the macro. They're saying that the bridge does not work in such a way where it allows for real time communication. As the original poster said, the macro works so the gate on the planet the Apollo was over dials the first gate in the bridge. Both gates then shut down and the first gate of the bridge dials the second gate. Once a connection is made it transfers over any data it stored in it's buffers from whatever was sent through the gate on the planet that the Apollo was over. Both the first and second gate in the bridge then shut down and the second gate dials the third...Repeat the process of dialing, transfering data, and shutting down until we reach the midway station gate. By this point only two gates should've been active and none of them would've been the one on the planet the Apollo was in orbit over so they shouldn't have been able to say something while Sam replied and so on and so forth.

In order for them to be able to communicate with the midway station, they would've either had to send a pre-recorded communication that told them which gate they were dialing from and what was going on with Atlantis. Then they would've had to wait 30 minutes while Sam loaded the macro to send her own communication back to them or the Apollo would've had to send a person over that she could talk to and the Apollo would've had to wait 30 minutes for that person to be sent back. So, the original poster is quite right that it was a mistake to have them talking the way they were.

Ace
October 7th, 2007, 12:20 PM
Nobody's denying that they could've have dialed the gateway station by modifying the macro. They're saying that the bridge does not work in such a way where it allows for real time communication. As the original poster said, the macro works so the gate on the planet the Apollo was over dials the first gate in the bridge. Both gates then shut down and the first gate of the bridge dials the second gate. Once a connection is made it transfers over any data it stored in it's buffers from whatever was sent through the gate on the planet that the Apollo was over. Both the first and second gate in the bridge then shut down and the second gate dials the third...Repeat the process of dialing, transfering data, and shutting down until we reach the midway station gate. By this point only two gates should've been active and none of them would've been the one on the planet the Apollo was in orbit over so they shouldn't have been able to say something while Sam replied and so on and so forth.

In order for them to be able to communicate with the midway station, they would've either had to send a pre-recorded communication that told them which gate they were dialing from and what was going on with Atlantis. Then they would've had to wait 30 minutes while Sam loaded the macro to send her own communication back to them or the Apollo would've had to send a person over that she could talk to and the Apollo would've had to wait 30 minutes for that person to be sent back. So, the original poster is quite right that it was a mistake to have them talking the way they were.

Really? I don't remember the Gate Bridge working like that... The way I understood it was the first gate dials the second gate and using the macro it forwards to the third gate so on and so on thereby having all the gates open at the same time until it reaches the end of the line at the gateway station. Thereby allowing real time communication...

Am I wrong? Perhaps somebody could point me towards a transcript where they explain the situation as you have described it.

Ace

P.S. Didn't they already have real time communication in the Season 3 episode "The Return Pt. 1"? I recall Landry calling Sheppard and Sheppard cutting him off

Naonak
October 7th, 2007, 12:36 PM
Really? I don't remember the Gate Bridge working like that... The way I understood it was the first gate dials the second gate and using the macro it forwards to the third gate so on and so on thereby having all the gates open at the same time until it reaches the end of the line at the gateway station. Thereby allowing real time communication...

Am I wrong? Perhaps somebody could point me towards a transcript where they explain the situation as you have described it.

Ace

P.S. Didn't they already have real time communication in the Season 3 episode "The Return Pt. 1"? I recall Landry calling Sheppard and Sheppard cutting him off
McKay's explanation in 'The Return I':

McKay: Thirty-four Gates from both the Milky Way and Pegasus Gate systems have been strategically placed in the massive void between our two galaxies. Simply enter on either side -- for example, Atlantis -- and boom! A macro that I have written specially for the occasion will command each Gate in the chain to store you in its buffer and forward you along to the next, and the next, and the next, and the next, and the next until you arrive here.

Once at the midway space station you simply exit the Pegasus Gate system and enter the Milky Way Gate system where a similar macro designed by yours truly will forward you along to the S.G.C. Total travel time, a little over thirty minutes.
I think that's the best we get, which doesn't really seem to come down on either side definitively.
I've always interpreted it the same way as Jsmith45 and Sicktem, with each gate dialling the next, shutting down, etc.

Could a Stargate have both an incoming and outgoing wormhole?

You're right about Landry calling John in 'The Return I', though, and they said then too that the MW gate was activating. So, even if it doesn't make sense, it seems to be an established fact that communication via the gate bridge is possible.

Jsmith45
October 7th, 2007, 12:43 PM
McKay's explanation in 'The Return I':

I think that's the best we get, which doesn't really seem to come down on either side definitively.
I've always interpreted it the same way as Jsmith45 and Sicktem, with each gate dialling the next, shutting down, etc.

Could a Stargate have both an incoming and outgoing wormhole?

You're right about Landry calling John in 'The Return I', though, and they said then too that the MW gate was activating. So, even if it doesn't make sense, it seems to be an established fact that communication via the gate bridge is possible.

But the message Landry sent was not necessarily real-time. Sheppard cut him off by tuning off the display, but that does not necessarily mean that communication was a real time message, rather than a data burst being sent along in the same way as an object would.

Ace
October 7th, 2007, 12:51 PM
McKay's explanation in 'The Return I':

I think that's the best we get, which doesn't really seem to come down on either side definitively.
I've always interpreted it the same way as Jsmith45 and Sicktem, with each gate dialling the next, shutting down, etc.

Could a Stargate have both an incoming and outgoing wormhole?

You're right about Landry calling John in 'The Return I', though, and they said then too that the MW gate was activating. So, even if it doesn't make sense, it seems to be an established fact that communication via the gate bridge is possible.

Maybe I have interpreted it wrong... but I always thought that all the gates in the sequence were on and using the "Anubis call forward" device/method it would transfer anything stored in the buffer such as a person on to the next gate until it reached it's destination.

Ace

Mattathias2.0
October 8th, 2007, 10:06 AM
Ok, but aren't we comparing matter transmisson vs a radio signal?

I think it has more to do that the only two compatible gates to create a stable wormhole to and from the Pegasus and Milky Way, is the Earth Gate and the Atlantis Gate (seen in multiple episodes), because Atlantis has a special control crystal.


From the episode Home

McKAY: It is, but that’s because it’s the only one with an additional control crystal that allows an eighth chevron to lock.
SHEPPARD: It’s probably a security measure.
McKAY: It doesn’t matter. As long as we have the control crystal, I can make the other Gate work.
WEIR: You’re suggesting we remove it from our DHD and bring it to M5S-224?
McKAY: Yes.
WEIR: Isn’t that risky?
McKAY: I’ll be fine.
SHEPPARD: I think she means in terms of breaking our own Gate.
McKAY: I know what I’m doing. Besides, the control crystal’s useless without enough power.

So, it shouldn't require the Atlantis Stargate any extra power to establish a wormhole with Earth (with at least one ZPM), but it would require extra power and that control crystal for a Pegasus Gate to establish a wormhole with Earth.

But the Gate Bridge is NOT having one gate from the Pegasus dial another in the Milky Way, so power is NOT an issue. There is no extra power needed for a gate within the same network to dial another in the same gate network - so reasonably speaking Ellis wouldn't need a ZPM to dial another Pegasus gate for that reason.

Maybe the macro does not function until matter enters one of the 4 enter/exit gates, and then automatically forwards. This could explain how the SGC actually had no issue contacting Sheppard using that gate, but the macro did not begin working until Sheppard entered the first Milky Way gate.

As far as distance goes, we have no real way to measure any comparison between any of the gates in any galaxies. There simply is not enough information to state what is and isn't possible, but we have seen it happen, so it does work.

We do know for a fact, that in order for Atlantis to Gate anywhere in the Milky Way, requires a ZPM, and in order for Earth to gate to Atlantis, requires them to have a ZPM, but as long as Atlantis has a ZPM, Atlantis can gate Earth anytime. We do for a fact that Pegasus Gates cannot dial another Milky Way Gates without extra power and that control crystal, as stated by McKay.

Sicktem
October 8th, 2007, 02:26 PM
I don't get your point. Is it that the Apollo should've been able to directly dial the mid-way station gate without needing any extra power other than the DHD already provides and since they were just sending radio signals along it wouldn't use as much power as if you were sending people through? The problem is that we know that what drains power is not the act of sending things through the wormhole, but the actual wormhole being active. The longer the distance of a wormhole, the more power is required to sustain it. Thus, in Letters to Pegasus, Rodney was able to make a connection to the Earth Stargate for 1.3 seconds without a ZPM (sending a data burst was possible since it travels through the wormhole faster than a person - a person would've been a fraction of the way through when the wormhole cut off). A ZPM simply would've kept it opened longer.

Under the same conditions the Apollo should've been able to dial the midway station for only about 2.6 seconds since it's about half the distance and the intergalactic bridge is designed so each gate is just far enough away from each other so a stable connection can be made with the power that they each have at hand. The problem is that Mckay had to really push all their naqahdah generators to the limits to get that brief connection. Where as the Apollo had a long back and forth conversation with Sam which should not have been at all possible.

ItsDan
October 9th, 2007, 09:42 AM
Regardless of whether the gates are simultaneously open, or open in turn, it should have taken 15 minutes for the message to reach the midway station (half the travel time from milkyway to pegasus via bridge).

KnightCrusader
October 9th, 2007, 08:25 PM
Oh thank god I am not the only one that noticed this issue. As soon as I heard them talking back to each other via the connection, I was like "They can't do that!". The gates require you to store the matter or data from one while they dial the next gate and forward you on.... 17 times in the case of one galaxy to the midway station. And, as far as I can tell from the past 11 years of established gate physics, a single gate can only sustain one connection to another gate, no more. (Actually, one connection per area of space, as two nearby gates cannot be used at the same time.) So, with this in mind, each gate in the bridge would have to shut down from the previous one before it dials up to the next one to upload the buffer. So, because of the store-and-forward design of the bridge, you can only send matter and data bursts one way with a total latency of a little over 15 minutes from the midway station to each end. However, carrying a full duplex two-way real-time connection is impossible. (Hmmm some networking terminology found itself in that explanation there...lol)

Jsmith45
October 11th, 2007, 08:17 AM
Ok, but aren't we comparing matter transmisson vs a radio signal?

I think it has more to do that the only two compatible gates to create a stable wormhole to and from the Pegasus and Milky Way, is the Earth Gate and the Atlantis Gate (seen in multiple episodes), because Atlantis has a special control crystal.

My understanding is that other milky way gates may be able to dial Pegasus gates, but clearly that theory has not been tested. I agree that the control crystal is required for Pegasus gates to dial Milky Way gates.




So, it shouldn't require the Atlantis Stargate any extra power to establish a wormhole with Earth (with at least one ZPM), but it would require extra power and that control crystal for a Pegasus Gate to establish a wormhole with Earth.

With a ZPM and a control crystal any Pegasus gate should be able to dial Milky-Way gates. Agreed.





But the Gate Bridge is NOT having one gate from the Pegasus dial another in the Milky Way, so power is NOT an issue. There is no extra power needed for a gate within the same network to dial another in the same gate network - so reasonably speaking Ellis wouldn't need a ZPM to dial another Pegasus gate for that reason.


This I disagree with. My feelings are that power is the issue. The DHDs or orbital gate supplies have sufficient power to connect with the other gates in the galaxy. However distance does matter. This is the whole reason why there are a total of 34 gates in the bridge. If power was not a problem, why are there so many gates? Only one gate of each type would be needed, located at the midway space station.



Maybe the macro does not function until matter enters one of the 4 enter/exit gates, and then automatically forwards. This could explain how the SGC actually had no issue contacting Sheppard using that gate, but the macro did not begin working until Sheppard entered the first Milky Way gate.

As far as distance goes, we have no real way to measure any comparison between any of the gates in any galaxies. There simply is not enough information to state what is and isn't possible, but we have seen it happen, so it does work.

We do know for a fact, that in order for Atlantis to Gate anywhere in the Milky Way, requires a ZPM, and in order for Earth to gate to Atlantis, requires them to have a ZPM, but as long as Atlantis has a ZPM, Atlantis can gate Earth anytime. We do for a fact that Pegasus Gates cannot dial another Milky Way Gates without extra power and that control crystal, as stated by McKay.

escyos
June 17th, 2009, 09:13 PM
maybe they dialled the first gate which sent a transmission to the second gat which dialled the thrid gate and so on and they communicated via sub space, which went through the first gate came out the second gate travelled across space tot he thrid gate and through to the fourth gate then across to the fifth gate and so fourth


Apollo>>>Gate>>>Gate--Subspace--Gate>>>Gate---Subspace---Gate etc

hammerbutt
July 4th, 2017, 07:34 AM
You would think there would be some issues both physically and mentally with being in a wormhole for 30 minutes