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Daniel Jackson
October 1st, 2007, 10:23 AM
If they can rig a Puddle Jumper for one or two hyperspace jumps, why not go to a local Stargate, then use that Stargate to dial the midway station, then from there, get Earth to send him two ZPM's (Earth's and the Odyssey's) through the Stargate, fly back to the Pegasus Galaxy, then make that second hyperspace jump back to Atlantis?

jenks
October 1st, 2007, 10:26 AM
That's assuming Earth still has two ZPM's, they could get used up in the movies...

Daniel Jackson
October 1st, 2007, 10:32 AM
This is entirely possible, but the movies aren't out yet, so we're left to assume the other two ZPM's are still usefull unless an Atlantis episode says otherwise.

Prior_of_the_Ori
October 1st, 2007, 10:38 AM
Problem being though that supposedly Ark of Truth AND Continuum have happened already so if they had Atlantis showing them getting one of the ZPMs and the movies show them used up then we have have one big continuity foul up.

Daniel Jackson
October 1st, 2007, 10:41 AM
The problem with that is The Ark of Truth won't be out until Season 4 is either ending or over. Continuum won't come out until just before or after Season 5 begins. If the two ZPM's that Earth got from Atlantis "The Return, Part 2" have been used up, then they need to say so in one of these episodes, otherwise it makes the Atlantis Expedition look incompetent. :S

FallenAngelII
October 1st, 2007, 10:42 AM
Because those gates would not be connected to the Intergalatic Bridge. It's specifically pointed out in 4x02 "Lifeline" that the connection had to be re-astablished, even though the Lantean gate had once been connected, which means that even after re-calibrating the gate, they had to do it all over again.

Most probably, there are strenous fail-safes and firewalls and what-nots in place to prevent others from just hacking their way in front other gates. Most probably, the gates have to be synchronized from both sides, the Bridge and the gate in question.

Daniel Jackson
October 1st, 2007, 10:54 AM
Because those gates would not be connected to the Intergalatic Bridge. It's specifically pointed out in 4x02 "Lifeline" that...
I stopped reading since "Lifeline" hasn't aired yet. :rolleyes:

Gregorius
October 1st, 2007, 11:08 AM
Why steal from the Asurans when it can be done easier? Simple, it doesn't require much continuity or, God forbid, thinking up a credible storyline by TPTB.

There are legio alternatives: Why don't they place McKay in that evolution machine and use him in that state to develop ZPMs for them? Or what about searching in the database for ZPMs? Or even hooking up all the puddlejumpers to the main power grid to keep them shield running while they perform repairs on the power conduits? Let alone they try to put everyone in puddlejumpers, shut down the shield and then use their EVA suits to repair the damage done to the power conduits?

Basically the asnwer to those questions is the same as the one to yours: It requires thinking critical about plotholes and the plot of an episode, it requires thinking in general by TPTB. And since that is much harder than creating a simple plot they'll always go with a simple plot like stealing.

Wraith_Boy
October 1st, 2007, 11:11 AM
The problem with that is The Ark of Truth won't be out until Season 4 is either ending or over. Continuum won't come out until just before or after Season 5 begins. If the two ZPM's that Earth got from Atlantis "The Return, Part 2" have been used up, then they need to say so in one of these episodes, otherwise it makes the Atlantis Expedition look incompetent. :S

The problem with that is that both movies already happened before S4 began. This has already been coinfirmed by both AT & JM.

So if the events happened after 'First Strike' & before 'Adrift', then how exactly are they supposed to put it in?

Fact is it was already said in 'Echoes' where they were going, we've saw Odyssey get pounded in 'Unending', as well as it'll also take a sure beating in the movies. There is no need to put in every little detail of it's use. Why didn't SG-1 put in a reference as to how Atlantis was using the ZPM that they received from Egypt in S2. Especially since the Ori quickly became a threat soon after. So those ZPM's are now in Atlantis history, most likely never to be heard of ever again. Not to mention Apollo knew they had serious power problems. Therdfore if either of the ZPM's were still available, then Ellis had every opportunity to contact the SGC via Midway & get it sent through. The fact they didn't should show that those ZPM's are gone.

As for the whole incompetence thing you refer to, I'm sorry to say that that happened in the very first few eps. In 'Suspicion' we see them take tazers with a limited one shot capacity & 20ft range over to use on Wraith. Yet never even think of taking along Zat's with them. Extended range & pretty much unlimited shot capacity. That's only a few of the things they've done wrongly since the beginning.

As to the original question, the PJ had a range of only around 2000ly's. There was only a limited number of planets in which they could have jumped to. Presumably all of them were previously checked or still remained explored. Those planets would be useless because they wouldn't have found anything worthwhile to help them in the matter of power capabilities. Not to mentiopn what happened if they jumped in, then found the Stargate was gone or not working any longer. Asuras was the only surefire choice in which they knew 100% about the place. While also had Weir as their inside mole. However in reality, I'm sure 2 would have been made. 1 to jump to another planet, so that they could gate to a Stargate, then use the gate to contact Apollo with the new coordinates of Atlantis rather than risking everything on the outcome of their dangerous heist to the Asuran homeworld. They the 304 could deal directly with the SGC to see if any ZPM's or whatever would be available to use. If so, the intergalactic bridge would be used to transport it thropugh to Pegasus & onto Atlantis. While the other went ahead with the heist on Asuras.

Daniel Jackson
October 1st, 2007, 11:35 AM
Why steal from the Asurans when it can be done easier? Simple, it doesn't require much continuity or, God forbid, thinking up a credible storyline by TPTB.
It seems to me that they're trying to force a conflict between Atlantis and Asuras instead of letting the story naturally flow wherever.


There are legio alternatives: Why don't they place McKay in that evolution machine and use him in that state to develop ZPMs for them? Or what about searching in the database for ZPMs? Or even hooking up all the puddlejumpers to the main power grid to keep them shield running while they perform repairs on the power conduits? Let alone they try to put everyone in puddlejumpers, shut down the shield and then use their EVA suits to repair the damage done to the power conduits?
All interesting possibilities, but contacting Earth and telling them to send them the other two ZPM's seems like the simplest sollution. In the mean time, they could fit as many people into the remaining Puddle Jumpers as possible just in case the shield fails.


Basically the asnwer to those questions is the same as the one to yours: It requires thinking critical about plotholes and the plot of an episode, it requires thinking in general by TPTB. And since that is much harder than creating a simple plot they'll always go with a simple plot like stealing.
Don't be too harsh. I suspect a big part of this irritating confussion comes from the fact that the SG-1 movies were suppose to have premiered on DVD before "Adrift" aired which may also be why Season 4 started so late.


The problem with that is that both movies already happened before S4 began. This has already been coinfirmed by both AT & JM.[QUOTE]
I understand this, but since the movies got delayed, the Atlantis episodes should have been reworked to explain these things to the audience instead of leaving us thinking the show is being poorly written.

[QUOTE]Fact is it was already said in 'Echoes' where they were going, we've saw Odyssey get pounded in 'Unending', as well as it'll also take a sure beating in the movies. There is no need to put in every little detail of it's use.
At the end of "Adrift," how about a very simple bit of dialogue. Someone like Teyla or Ronan suggests going to Earth to retrieve the other two ZPM's, Sheppard mentions they were used up in Earth's war with the Ori, then McKay suggests the raid on Asuras. I mean, come on, see how easy that is?


Why didn't SG-1 put in a reference as to how Atlantis was using the ZPM that they received from Egypt in S2.
They did. It was stated in the "Moebius" two-parter that they were retrieving the ZPM specifically for Atlantis.


So those ZPM's are now in Atlantis history, most likely never to be heard of ever again. Not to mention Apollo knew they had serious power problems. Therdfore if either of the ZPM's were still available, then Ellis had every opportunity to contact the SGC via Midway & get it sent through. The fact they didn't should show that those ZPM's are gone.
Speculation. I seem to recall numerous times where Atlantis needed the other two ZPM's, and Earth wouldn't give them up. However, this time Atlantis is on the verge of destruction, so... that's a different matter.


As for the whole incompetence thing you refer to, I'm sorry to say that that happened in the very first few eps. In 'Suspicion' we see them take tazers with a limited one shot capacity & 20ft range over to use on Wraith. Yet never even think of taking along Zat's with them. Extended range & pretty much unlimited shot capacity. That's only a few of the things they've done wrongly since the beginning.
Tazers can be repaired and recharged. If a zat breaks or runs out of power, that's that. The main reason why zats aren't used (beyond episodes featuring the SGC) is to keep the shows separate to some extent.


As to the original question, the PJ had a range of only around 2000ly's. There was only a limited number of planets in which they could have jumped to. Presumably all of them were previously checked or still remained explored. Those planets would be useless because they wouldn't have found anything worthwhile to help them in the matter of power capabilities. Not to mentiopn what happened if they jumped in, then found the Stargate was gone or not working any longer. Asuras was the only surefire choice in which they knew 100% about the place.
That's the first good reason I've seen for going to Asuras, thanks. :)


However in reality, I'm sure 2 would have been made. 1 to jump to another planet, so that they could gate to a Stargate, then use the gate to contact Apollo with the new coordinates of Atlantis rather than risking everything on the outcome of their dangerous heist to the Asuran homeworld. They the 304 could deal directly with the SGC to see if any ZPM's or whatever would be available to use. If so, the intergalactic bridge would be used to transport it thropugh to Pegasus & onto Atlantis. While the other went ahead with the heist on Asuras.
Most likely, they only have time to rig one Puddle Jumper.

Gregorius
October 1st, 2007, 11:40 AM
[COLOR="Blue"]It seems to me that they're trying to force a conflict between Atlantis and Asuras instead of letting the story naturally flow wherever.

Which is a symptom of, guess what, bad writing.


All interesting possibilities, but contacting Earth and telling them to send them the other two ZPM's seems like the simplest sollution. In the mean time, they could fit as many people into the remaining Puddle Jumpers as possible just in case the shield fails.

Again, the lack of this what does it return to? Bad writing.


Don't be too harsh. I suspect a big part of this irritating confussion comes from the fact that the SG-1 movies were suppose to have premiered on DVD before "Adrift" aired which may also be why Season 4 started so late.

I am not being harsh. These are people that have written and led a show for 10 years, they should be able to write decent storylines and overall storyarcs. It's not like we're talking about an upstarting show, no we're talking about a spin-off from another show with the same PTB that had already ran for 7 years. If anything I'm being mild.

Compare it to teaching: You will forgive a beginning teacher for making mistakes, but the longer a person has been teaching the less forgiving you'll be because you expect them to be capable. And if they are not capable they should be fired and replaced with people who are capable, at least that's how it works in most buisnesses.

technoextreme
October 1st, 2007, 12:15 PM
Why steal from the Asurans when it can be done easier? Simple, it doesn't require much continuity or, God forbid, thinking up a credible storyline by TPTB.

There are legio alternatives: Why don't they place McKay in that evolution machine and use him in that state to develop ZPMs for them? Or what about searching in the database for ZPMs? Or even hooking up all the puddlejumpers to the main power grid to keep them shield running while they perform repairs on the power conduits? Let alone they try to put everyone in puddlejumpers, shut down the shield and then use their EVA suits to repair the damage done to the power conduits?


Well the evolution machine is a simple answer. First I have no idea where it was so it could have been in a depressurised part of the city. Second of all the effect is random. We could have had blobby McKay. Also, the machine's effect was gradual.l He wouldn't have been able to create a ZPM in time and we have no clue what constituent materials a ZPM is made of. Using project Acturas would have been an infinitly beter idea than that. The puddlejumper suggestion is another no go. People were seriously injured and the only place where they could receive treatment is in the tower. Shutting down the shield for the tower is essentially cripiling any medical services.

Speculation. I seem to recall numerous times where Atlantis needed the other two ZPM's, and Earth wouldn't give them up. However, this time Atlantis is on the verge of destruction, so... that's a different matter.

Once and not only that they would have gotten the two zpms but there wasn't enough time. Remember in that episode there was no reason to have the ZPMs until Rodney discovered the solar burst which was too late to recall both the ZPMs.
Most likely, they only have time to rig one Puddle Jumper.

McKay only rigged one Puddle Jumper and he wasn't even sure if it was going to work.

Gregorius
October 1st, 2007, 01:02 PM
Well the evolution machine is a simple answer. First I have no idea where it was so it could have been in a depressurised part of the city. Second of all the effect is random. We could have had blobby McKay. Also, the machine's effect was gradual.l He wouldn't have been able to create a ZPM in time and we have no clue what constituent materials a ZPM is made of.

It's effects differ per person, since I distinctly recall being stated in the "Tao of Rodney" that it maps out the best evolutionary path for an individual based on his or her genetics. And since Rodney's genetics hasn't changed one bit since that episode it's safe to assume the effects would be the same every time you put him in it.

Also, it doesn't matter if the effects are gradual. They had time and since his intelligence increases exponentially he probably would've figured out a new way to reroute power before he reached near Ascended levels.


The puddlejumper suggestion is another no go. People were seriously injured and the only place where they could receive treatment is in the tower. Shutting down the shield for the tower is essentially cripiling any medical services.

Then use a puddlejumper shield to hold atmosphere inside the medical facilities and the control room and use another jumper or even a naquada generator to power the equipment. If a jumper's shield can hold back an ocean for some time before it gives out it should easily be capable of holding in the air for a long period of time until it gives out and by that time you already have a second jumper in place.

s09119
October 1st, 2007, 01:10 PM
It's effects differ per person, since I distinctly recall being stated in the "Tao of Rodney" that it maps out the best evolutionary path for an individual based on his or her genetics. And since Rodney's genetics hasn't changed one bit since that episode it's safe to assume the effects would be the same every time you put him in it.

Also, it doesn't matter if the effects are gradual. They had time and since his intelligence increases exponentially he probably would've figured out a new way to reroute power before he reached near Ascended levels.



Then use a puddlejumper shield to hold atmosphere inside the medical facilities and the control room and use another jumper or even a naquada generator to power the equipment. If a jumper's shield can hold back an ocean for some time before it gives out it should easily be capable of holding in the air for a long period of time until it gives out and by that time you already have a second jumper in place.

...but that would make for a rather boring and un-interesting plot, as they just wait to be rescued...

IcyNeko
October 1st, 2007, 01:14 PM
Wow, hey, way to put a spoiler in teh title! A+

Gregorius
October 1st, 2007, 01:18 PM
...but that would make for a rather boring and un-interesting plot, as they just wait to be rescued...

It would make an interesting plot because you have a lot of people convined to a small space, that means lots of room for inter-character relationship development. And then there is the "Who will go outside to work on the power conduits" part, who is willing to leave the shelter of the shield to help the others.

I'd say it would make for an excellent episode, especially if they want to make this season more character driven.

Sicktem
October 1st, 2007, 01:24 PM
Actually what was said is as follows:


McKAY: Yeah, it just came to me. I was, I was, I was floating in this, this big black emptiness and then the answer just came out of nowhere. Look, the device was designed to manipulate your D.N.A. It couldn’t reverse the evolutionary advancement process because everyone’s D.N.A. was different. It makes certain changes that causes the D.N.A. to evolve in ways specific to your own unique physiology.

...

McKAY: Despite the fact that the Ancient database states that its effects on people are wildly unpredictable and that I’m just lucky I wasn’t instantly melted down into a pool of protoplasm.

Personally, I take that to mean that its effects on a person are completely random and has nothing to do with their DNA. If it doesn't work on you it is because the machine is flawed, not because your DNA is special and it has the ability to modify that specific DNA time and time again.

However, even if he did have a 100% chance of not becoming goo he may not be able to figure out the spiritual aspect again and die. He wouldn't be the first in such a situation (Orlin). It was a fluke that it didn't take him years the first time, we don't need to force him into another live or die situation when there are other possibilities available to them.

technoextreme
October 1st, 2007, 01:38 PM
Then use a puddlejumper shield to hold atmosphere inside the medical facilities and the control room and use another jumper or even a naquada generator to power the equipment. If a jumper's shield can hold back an ocean for some time before it gives out it should easily be capable of holding in the air for a long period of time until it gives out and by that time you already have a second jumper in place.
The puddlejumper doesn't have a shield. It was an ad hoc replacement for the cloaking device. Not only that but Atlantis would have to have oxygen scrubbers for your plan to even work. Otherwise it's just suicide to contain the air in a single room and breathe it. It's a good question though.

McKAY: Despite the fact that the Ancient database states that its effects on people are wildly unpredictable and that I’m just lucky I wasn’t instantly melted down into a pool of protoplasm.
This was when John wanted to join in on the fun right?

Ark_Commando
October 1st, 2007, 01:38 PM
No why steal a ZPM from the ASurans.... well for one the two ZPMS still in the Milky way are needed. The Oddessy needs its for battles against the Ori to power its Asgard weapons and shields and stuff. And the Earth one is obviously needed if the Ori ever attack Earth. And besides the Asurans have plenty to spare.

garhkal
October 1st, 2007, 01:42 PM
And as to the looking in the database for the ZPMS they have already done so..

Iguana775
October 1st, 2007, 01:49 PM
I find it hard to believe they could actually pull it off unless they had an Asgard beam put in to a jumper that cloaks, flies in and beams a bunch of ZPMs out. Even then, I would have be bet that they could still detect a cloaked Jumper. Seems entirely impossible. but you never know. It will be interesting to see how it happens.

Alipeeps
October 1st, 2007, 01:56 PM
Why steal from the Asurans when it can be done easier? Simple, it doesn't require much continuity or, God forbid, thinking up a credible storyline by TPTB.

There are legio alternatives: Why don't they place McKay in that evolution machine and use him in that state to develop ZPMs for them?

This has already been convered quite comprehensively but the short answer remains that the machine doesn't work properly and has as much chance of turning you into goop as evolving you. Plus, hey, for all we know the power requirement of running the machine could drain way more power than they can spare.



Or what about searching in the database for ZPMs?

Right. Cos in the past three years - and especially that first year where they had no ZPM and no defences against the wraith - it just didn't occur to them to search the database for ZPMs? If they haven't been able to find ZPMs through a database search in three years, it's unlikley they're suddenly going to be able to now.



Or even hooking up all the puddlejumpers to the main power grid to keep them shield running while they perform repairs on the power conduits? Let alone they try to put everyone in puddlejumpers, shut down the shield and then use their EVA suits to repair the damage done to the power conduits?

Interesting idea but a) you have no idea how much power the shield requires and whether the jumpers can supply that much (or whether they can hook them up in time) and b) McKay pretty clearly stated that the best they can do with the conduits is to patch them up (which they were already doing):

"We wouldn’t be able to repair them completely, not without landing and shutting down and such.."

technoextreme
October 1st, 2007, 01:59 PM
Right. Cos in the past three years - and especially that first year where they had no ZPM and no defences against the wraith - it just didn't occur to them to search the database for ZPMs? If they haven't been able to find ZPMs through a database search in three years, it's unlikley they're suddenly going to be able to now.
Well the only other alternative is to somehow fake being an ancient and get the ZPM they lost from the cult.

Shipperahoy
October 1st, 2007, 02:07 PM
I've edited the thread title to remove reference to the Replicator homeworld because it's a spoiler for Adrift. I realize that it seems like you wouldn't need to monitor spoilers in the titles of threads in the season 4 folder but if this thread is the most recent thread posted in in this folder it shows up on the main page and can spoiler people who haven't been able to see Adrift yet.

Sicktem
October 1st, 2007, 02:19 PM
I find it hard to believe they could actually pull it off unless they had an Asgard beam put in to a jumper that cloaks, flies in and beams a bunch of ZPMs out. Even then, I would have be bet that they could still detect a cloaked Jumper. Seems entirely impossible. but you never know. It will be interesting to see how it happens.

They couldn't detect Sheppard's cloaked jumper in orbit after the Apollo left it there for an hour. If they were able to they would've fired on it. But anyway now is the perfect time to sneak in. It's only a very brief time after the attack. They have Asurans who were destroyed/damaged in the bombings and need to be redownloaded/reformed. So they'd have lots of people working towards helping them with that. Then they'd have many more out and about repairing whatever damage they could while a number are still looking into the extent of the damage elsewhere. They have a lot of ground to cover and on top of it they've been pouring resources into destroying Atlantis so all in all they will be largely distracted.

Technically it should be very easy and very quick if done properly, (detect a lone ZPM power station that is out of the way, land, run in, fire on any Asurans in your way, [if any] grab the ZPM, run out, and fly away) but of course something will go wrong to make it more interesting. Possibly because of Mckay - Personally I suspect that either Weir will get them in trouble due Mckay screwing up the reprograming of her nanites or Mckay will get greedy and try to make a run for another power station so he can get more ZPMs. We'll see.

garhkal
October 2nd, 2007, 02:14 PM
Interesting idea but a) you have no idea how much power the shield requires and whether the jumpers can supply that much (or whether they can hook them up in time) and b) McKay pretty clearly stated that the best they can do with the conduits is to patch them up (which they were already doing):

"We wouldn’t be able to repair them completely, not without landing and shutting down and such.."

Getting back to the pjs... We have never been shown how long they last or how they aer powered, but we have seen them run out of power... during grace under pressure.. So imo while thye could gain some power for a little, it would not make much difference.. maybe 2-3 more hours.

IWKYZerocool
October 3rd, 2007, 12:39 AM
They couldn't detect Sheppard's cloaked jumper in orbit after the Apollo left it there for an hour. If they were able to they would've fired on it. But anyway now is the perfect time to sneak in. It's only a very brief time after the attack. They have Asurans who were destroyed/damaged in the bombings and need to be redownloaded/reformed. So they'd have lots of people working towards helping them with that. Then they'd have many more out and about repairing whatever damage they could while a number are still looking into the extent of the damage elsewhere. They have a lot of ground to cover and on top of it they've been pouring resources into destroying Atlantis so all in all they will be largely distracted.

Technically it should be very easy and very quick if done properly, (detect a lone ZPM power station that is out of the way, land, run in, fire on any Asurans in your way, [if any] grab the ZPM, run out, and fly away) but of course something will go wrong to make it more interesting. Possibly because of Mckay - Personally I suspect that either Weir will get them in trouble due Mckay screwing up the reprograming of her nanites or Mckay will get greedy and try to make a run for another power station so he can get more ZPMs. We'll see.

Well hopefully we find the storage room for the zpm's then we can take 3 to power Atlantis and another couple for our ships and a spare one.

P-90_177
October 3rd, 2007, 12:58 AM
If they can rig a Puddle Jumper for one or two hyperspace jumps, why not go to a local Stargate, then use that Stargate to dial the midway station, then from there, get Earth to send him two ZPM's (Earth's and the Odyssey's) through the Stargate, fly back to the Pegasus Galaxy, then make that second hyperspace jump back to Atlantis?

well they have only about a day until the shield fails. granted it's one hell of a coincidence but the asuran homeworld is reletively close. now think about how long it would take for earth to transport the zpms back to atlantis...by the time they got back the shield would have failed.

Franklyn Blaze
October 3rd, 2007, 01:06 AM
Better yet, steal the knowledge on how to manufacture ZPMs from the replicators.

Defiant
October 3rd, 2007, 01:12 AM
I can't believe the Atlantis database doesn't mention how to recharge a ZPM lol

Defiant
October 3rd, 2007, 01:15 AM
I find it hard to believe they could actually pull it off unless they had an Asgard beam put in to a jumper that cloaks, flies in and beams a bunch of ZPMs out. Even then, I would have be bet that they could still detect a cloaked Jumper. Seems entirely impossible. but you never know. It will be interesting to see how it happens.

I think they will get detected because something Torri said in the gateworld interview tells me she saves them

P-90_177
October 3rd, 2007, 01:16 AM
Better yet, steal the knowledge on how to manufacture ZPMs from the replicators.

yes and then how long would it take to actually make one? for all we know (and for all they know) it takes months to create a zpm. time that the team don't have.


I can't believe the Atlantis database doesn't mention how to recharge a ZPM lol

you can't recharge zpm's. once they're depleted that's it. they each derive their power from a pocket of somespace. but once that collapses there is no more power.

Defiant
October 3rd, 2007, 01:20 AM
you can't recharge zpm's. once they're depleted that's it. they each derive their power from a pocket of somespace. but once that collapses there is no more power.

Still don't see how an advance race can't come up with a simple recharge method

Franklyn Blaze
October 3rd, 2007, 01:24 AM
Its subspace, not somespace. :D

P-90_177
October 3rd, 2007, 01:36 AM
Its subspace, not somespace. :D

ooops. sorry didn't notice that. my mind must have been elsewhere.

Franklyn Blaze
October 3rd, 2007, 01:40 AM
ooops. sorry didn't notice that. my mind must have been elsewhere.
Hehe it's ok, it was good for a gigglesnort.

P-90_177
October 3rd, 2007, 01:42 AM
Still don't see how an advance race can't come up with a simple recharge method

probably cos it might not be that simple.

Franklyn Blaze
October 3rd, 2007, 01:46 AM
probably cos it might not be that simple.
Yup. Most people don't use rechargeable batteries compared to the single use ones. Why do people want to recharge them when they can just get more, maybe the ancients thought the same thing.

Defiant
October 3rd, 2007, 06:33 AM
Yup. Most people don't use rechargeable batteries compared to the single use ones. Why do people want to recharge them when they can just get more, maybe the ancients thought the same thing.


I use rechargeable batteries with all the remotes etc I have because I save a small fortune

P-90_177
October 3rd, 2007, 06:54 AM
strange isn't it that no one buys rechargeable battries because they're too expensive and yet in the end you save loads cos you don't have to keep replaceing standard ones.

anyway. back to stargate.

Samildanach
October 3rd, 2007, 08:19 AM
They should just use the jumpers to slow down the city enough so that they can use the gate. the city is moving under inertia at the moment. Use the jumpers to slow it down enough so you can use the gate.

P-90_177
October 3rd, 2007, 08:20 AM
that wouldn't work. the city is too big. even with all the jumpers.

Mattathias2.0
October 3rd, 2007, 08:46 AM
If they can rig a Puddle Jumper for one or two hyperspace jumps, why not go to a local Stargate, then use that Stargate to dial the midway station, then from there, get Earth to send him two ZPM's (Earth's and the Odyssey's) through the Stargate, fly back to the Pegasus Galaxy, then make that second hyperspace jump back to Atlantis?

That would take up too much time. We don't know what has happened on Earth lately or if the Odyssey is on a mission or something. Depending upon circumstances, it could take several weeks, esp. if the IOA were to get involved. It's very doubtful Atlantis would be able to acquire the ZPMs anyways.


The problem with that is The Ark of Truth won't be out until Season 4 is either ending or over. Continuum won't come out until just before or after Season 5 begins. If the two ZPM's that Earth got from Atlantis "The Return, Part 2" have been used up, then they need to say so in one of these episodes, otherwise it makes the Atlantis Expedition look incompetent. :S

Doesn't reflect on anyonne on Atlantis.


I understand this, but since the movies got delayed, the Atlantis episodes should have been reworked to explain these things to the audience instead of leaving us thinking the show is being poorly written.

Poorly written? I think the current stories are even better than previous ones. And I firmly disagree. Those could be crucial plot points in the movies. I, for one, do not want to know until I see the movies for myself.

Alipeeps
October 3rd, 2007, 09:38 AM
I can't believe the Atlantis database doesn't mention how to recharge a ZPM lol

Info on how to create ZPMs etc probably is in the database.. but the database is huuuuge and, from what we know, doesn't seem to have any kind of organised index.. they are working their way through it but it will take years....

Gregorius
October 3rd, 2007, 11:40 AM
Getting back to the pjs... We have never been shown how long they last or how they aer powered, but we have seen them run out of power... during grace under pressure.. So imo while thye could gain some power for a little, it would not make much difference.. maybe 2-3 more hours.

2 to 3 hours per jumper times 20 gives you 60h at most to make the repairs while you completely depower the city. Also, keep in mind that in Grace under Pressure the shields were holding back an ocean, and we all know that the pressure water creates is far larger than the pressure air creates, this is basic physics, and considering that the power the shield requires is proportional to the force excerted on it, see Grace under pressure, and the time available increases. Add to that that you can use the naquada generators to supply additional power to the jumpers and the time increases even more. Therefore they'll propably last even longer and thus giving the expedition even more time to make the repairs. Although 60h should be more than enough time to fix the primairy power conduits, test them and fully restore power to the city.


This has already been convered quite comprehensively but the short answer remains that the machine doesn't work properly and has as much chance of turning you into goop as evolving you. Plus, hey, for all we know the power requirement of running the machine could drain way more power than they can spare.

And for all we know the machine can work on the power supplied by the Naquada generators, ergo you're assuming as much as I do.


Right. Cos in the past three years - and especially that first year where they had no ZPM and no defences against the wraith - it just didn't occur to them to search the database for ZPMs? If they haven't been able to find ZPMs through a database search in three years, it's unlikley they're suddenly going to be able to now.


Info on how to create ZPMs etc probably is in the database.. but the database is huuuuge and, from what we know, doesn't seem to have any kind of organised index.. they are working their way through it but it will take years....

I sense a contradiction in your own statements.


Interesting idea but a) you have no idea how much power the shield requires and whether the jumpers can supply that much (or whether they can hook them up in time) and b) McKay pretty clearly stated that the best they can do with the conduits is to patch them up (which they were already doing):

"We wouldn’t be able to repair them completely, not without landing and shutting down and such.."

Why land a _damaged_ city ship if you can do repairs in space in a 0G environment, any (space) engineer will tell you that it would be ridiculous since it would complicate a lot of things, and you don't know how the structural integrity is of the city after being hit by so many meteors. For all we know the force excerted on the city while it's this damaged exceed the maximum allowed value for the normal and shear stresses in the structure, this will especially be the case during re-entry where high G values are encountered.

Also, with my idea it's easy to completely shut down the entire city, make repairs to the power system, test it and repower the entire city. That way you would even have the shields to reduce the strain on the structure while it lands.

Samildanach
October 3rd, 2007, 12:09 PM
that wouldn't work. the city is too big. even with all the jumpers.

That assumes you

a) know how fast the city is moving.
b) know how much maximum thrust each jumper is capable of.
c) know the 'fuel/power consumption rate' of a jumper
d) know the maximum speed at which a gate can travel and yet stay active
e) know what the city masses as inertia is tied to mass.

and a bunch of other unknowns. In short you can't definitively say this wouldn't work. As for evidence in favour of this idea.

We know at least one of the jumpers has power enough for a 4000 light year hyperspace jump. That implies potentially a ridiculous amount of potential power per jumper which means potentially a huge amount of thrust if you maxed out the engines in each jumper which implies a decent amount of deceleration over a 24 hour period.

When it comes to mass advanced composites are usually much lighter, especially when it comes to spacecraft, so who knows what that city masses, it might only be a few thousand tonnes.

Sicktem
October 3rd, 2007, 12:47 PM
We know at least one of the jumpers has power enough for a 4000 light year hyperspace jump. That implies potentially a ridiculous amount of potential power per jumper which means potentially a huge amount of thrust if you maxed out the engines in each jumper which implies a decent amount of deceleration over a 24 hour period.

All we know is that Mckay's modified jumper has that power. We don't know if he managed to tap into the jumper's regular power source for this, if he built something unique that could hold more power, or if he hooked up a naqudah generator to it or not. To assume that all other puddle jumpers would have the same amount of power at this point is a bit premature.

Samildanach
October 3rd, 2007, 01:01 PM
All we know is that Mckay's modified jumper has that power

Guess we find that out in the next episode. :) However I would have assumed the ancients ,being the ancients, that at the very least each jumper would have the equivalent of a naq generator. After all the gould are using them all over the place and the ancients are far more advanced implying they would have a much better power source for small flying machines.

Mitchell82
October 3rd, 2007, 01:04 PM
That assumes you

a) know how fast the city is moving.
b) know how much maximum thrust each jumper is capable of.
c) know the 'fuel/power consumption rate' of a jumper
d) know the maximum speed at which a gate can travel and yet stay active
e) know what the city masses as inertia is tied to mass.

and a bunch of other unknowns. In short you can't definitively say this wouldn't work. As for evidence in favour of this idea.

We know at least one of the jumpers has power enough for a 4000 light year hyperspace jump. That implies potentially a ridiculous amount of potential power per jumper which means potentially a huge amount of thrust if you maxed out the engines in each jumper which implies a decent amount of deceleration over a 24 hour period.

When it comes to mass advanced composites are usually much lighter, especially when it comes to spacecraft, so who knows what that city masses, it might only be a few thousand tonnes.

Sorry it won't work. The city's mass is way more than anything the jumpers could handle. It's way too big.

Samildanach
October 3rd, 2007, 01:05 PM
What does the city mass?

Alipeeps
October 3rd, 2007, 03:46 PM
Although 60h should be more than enough time to fix the primairy power conduits, test them and fully restore power to the city.

I'll reiterate - McKay himself, as quoted from the episode, stated that they would NOT be able to repair the conduits without landing the city and shutting everything down.



And for all we know the machine can work on the power supplied by the Naquada generators, ergo you're assuming as much as I do.

Hence why that comment was an additional one - as indicated by the "plus". As in.. I was offering it up as another concept to consider. I wasn't stating it as any kind of fact... hence no assumption.

However, you have completely ignored the first part of my argument, which was that it is CANON, from Tao of Rodney, that the machine doesn't work properly and that there is no way to predict whether it will enhance you or turn you into goop.


I sense a contradiction in your own statements.

Nope. The two statements refer to the same issue... IF the information is in the database, they haven't found it yet in 3 years of looking, which makes it unlikely they would stumlble across it right now, just when they need it. Which doesn't exclude the possibility that the info IS in the database... but, as explained in my second comment, the database is huge and unindexed and would take years and years to go through completely. There is no contradiction here.. I didn't say the info isn't in the database, I merely explained that they hadn't found it yet and explained part of the reason why they have not been able to find it (if it's there to find).



Why land a _damaged_ city ship if you can do repairs in space in a 0G environment, any (space) engineer will tell you that it would be ridiculous since it would complicate a lot of things, and you don't know how the structural integrity is of the city after being hit by so many meteors. For all we know the force excerted on the city while it's this damaged exceed the maximum allowed value for the normal and shear stresses in the structure, this will especially be the case during re-entry where high G values are encountered.

Also, with my idea it's easy to completely shut down the entire city, make repairs to the power system, test it and repower the entire city. That way you would even have the shields to reduce the strain on the structure while it lands.

I'm afraid on this point, I'm going to trust McKay's opinion over yours... he said they cannot repair the conduits without landing the city and shutting everything down. In my book, that makes your argument moot.

Gregorius
October 3rd, 2007, 08:52 PM
I'll reiterate - McKay himself, as quoted from the episode, stated that they would NOT be able to repair the conduits without landing the city and shutting everything down.

Yes I know he said that and since I actually have some knowledge in the area of Space Engineering I know that doing so, attemption re-entry and landing with a damaged vessel, would be extremely idiotic*. But I'm not blaming you for following that line, it's a mistake made by the writers, they should really consult engineers on that issue.

* Compare it to a submarine with microfractures in its hull diving deeper and deeper from the surface. There is a large chance the microfractures will grow due to the increased pressure, or in Atlantis' case increasing gravity forces as well as re-entry and aerodynamic forces, and in that case the submarine will sink because the microfracture became fractures and this resulting in fatal structural damage.


However, you have completely ignored the first part of my argument, which was that it is CANON, from Tao of Rodney, that the machine doesn't work properly and that there is no way to predict whether it will enhance you or turn you into goop.

From what I gather from cannon that only depends on the person and was why Sheppard wasn't allowed to use the machine by Weir because they didn't know what he would turn into. But in the case of Rodney he would simply turn back into Ancient Rodney.


Nope. The two statements refer to the same issue... IF the information is in the database, they haven't found it yet in 3 years of looking, which makes it unlikely they would stumlble across it right now, just when they need it

I'll exclude your second part since it makes sense, but this part doesn't. More unlikely things have happened, especially in this episode. How large do you think the chance is that you drop from hyperspace, near an asteroid field and conviently close to a stash of ZPMs? Taking this into account, as well as Beckett's magical retro-virusses, it would be entirely in the line of prediction that they would stumble upon it.


I'm afraid on this point, I'm going to trust McKay's opinion over yours... he said they cannot repair the conduits without landing the city and shutting everything down. In my book, that makes your argument moot.

I'll stick to my argument which my education in Space Engineering is telling me would be the proper one. If you have all the tools and your structure in damaged it's easier to simply repair the ship in space because then there wouldn't be those nasty forces acting on your structure.

The only reason McKay, a scientist and not an engineer, probably said they had to land is because of the shield. But if you place the people in the jumpers you can completely turn off Atlantis and fix the problem in space and avoid re-entry with a damaged vessel (We all know how well re-entry with a damaged vessel goes don't we, see Columbia).

Anyway, since you don't have a background in (Space) Engineering I can understand why you prefer to follow McKay's, and thus the writers' who aren't engineers also, opinion. :)

Sweetsong
October 3rd, 2007, 09:47 PM
I suspect a big part of this irritating confussion comes At the end of "Adrift," how about a very simple bit of dialogue. Someone like Teyla or Ronan suggests going to Earth to retrieve the other two ZPM's, Sheppard mentions they were used up in Earth's war with the Ori, then McKay suggests the raid on Asuras. I mean, come on, see how easy that is?


Speculation. I seem to recall numerous times where Atlantis needed the other two ZPM's, and Earth wouldn't give them up. However, this time Atlantis is on the verge of destruction, so... that's a different matter.



Apparently the writers do not feel the need to explain everything that happens in the episodes. Same way they did not explain how Weir's hair grew back so quickly after her surgery in Adrift. They knew fans would speculate and come up with plausible answers like we've seen here so far.

As for the times Atlantis needed the other ZPMs I think there was no time to get it to them.

PG15
October 3rd, 2007, 10:15 PM
I'll exclude your second part since it makes sense, but this part doesn't. More unlikely things have happened, especially in this episode. How large do you think the chance is that you drop from hyperspace, near an asteroid field and conviently close to a stash of ZPMs? Taking this into account, as well as Beckett's magical retro-virusses, it would be entirely in the line of prediction that they would stumble upon it.

So you want another Deus Ex Machina/contrivance onto the list? Wouldn't that just make it even worse? I mean, I'm sure you'll be complaining about that if the writers went that way with it. ;)


The only reason McKay, a scientist and not an engineer, probably said they had to land is because of the shield. But if you place the people in the jumpers you can completely turn off Atlantis and fix the problem in space and avoid re-entry with a damaged vessel (We all know how well re-entry with a damaged vessel goes don't we, see Columbia).

Do we have proof that they could've piled everyone into the jumpers and not have the CO2 scrubbers (or whatever air circulation the PJs use) fail too soon? It all depends on this, after all, right?


Anyway, since you don't have a background in (Space) Engineering I can understand why you prefer to follow McKay's, and thus the writers' who aren't engineers also, opinion. :)

You know, this slight holier-than-thou attitude here is starting to grate. I mean, this is the 3rd time you mentioned it in your relatively short post.

FallenAngelII
October 3rd, 2007, 10:39 PM
That assumes you

a) know how fast the city is moving.
b) know how much maximum thrust each jumper is capable of.
c) know the 'fuel/power consumption rate' of a jumper
d) know the maximum speed at which a gate can travel and yet stay active
e) know what the city masses as inertia is tied to mass.

and a bunch of other unknowns. In short you can't definitively say this wouldn't work. As for evidence in favour of this idea.
Let's assume the characters all knew this and therefore didn't consider this option.

And let's assume you don't know these things enough to claim they'll work.


We know at least one of the jumpers has power enough for a 4000 light year hyperspace jump. That implies potentially a ridiculous amount of potential power per jumper which means potentially a huge amount of thrust if you maxed out the engines in each jumper which implies a decent amount of deceleration over a 24 hour period.
That was a modified jumper. And just because it had enough to do that large of a jump does not mean anything. The BC-304s and DSC-30Xs are able to jump into hyperspace how many times and able to travel how fast without a ZPM now? And they're running on non-Ancient fuel! Not to mention the fact that the power needed merely to open the hyperdrive window differs greatly depending on the size of the object. Of course a jumepr isn't gonna need much to go into Hyperspace!

And unlimited power means unlimited speed since when, now? Just because you take a Dodge Viper and interface it with a ZPM doesn't mean it'll be able to drive across Earth within 5 minutes.


When it comes to mass advanced composites are usually much lighter, especially when it comes to spacecraft, so who knows what that city masses, it might only be a few thousand tonnes.
And we're back to complete speculation. They were in space... space. Atlantis is huge, huge! Several kilometers across. And it was obvious they were travelling at a very high speed. Did you know that jumpers are hollow cylinders? Not much mass to get there.

Not to mention the fact that the city is, still, huge.

Gregorius
October 4th, 2007, 04:25 AM
So you want another Deus Ex Machina/contrivance onto the list? Wouldn't that just make it even worse? I mean, I'm sure you'll be complaining about that if the writers went that way with it. ;)

I would but I was merely stating that more unlikely things have happened in recent seasons. :)


Do we have proof that they could've piled everyone into the jumpers and not have the CO2 scrubbers (or whatever air circulation the PJs use) fail too soon? It all depends on this, after all, right?

It depends on how large you can expand the shield of the jumper. If you can create a large enough bubble the CO2 filters should easily be capable of handling it especially if you start overlapping the shields over various puddlejumpers. Also keep in mind it would only have to be for a short time, until the primary power conduits were fixed.


You know, this slight holier-than-thou attitude here is starting to grate. I mean, this is the 3rd time you mentioned it in your relatively short post.

Yes to ensure the point gets across. This because on GW recently it seems that to get a point across you have to repeat yourself, especially on topic that are related to technical points.

Samildanach
October 4th, 2007, 04:54 AM
Let's assume the characters all knew this and therefore didn't consider this option.

And let's assume you don't know these things enough to claim they'll work.

I prefer to make no assumptions. Making speculations about whether the characters all knew something is pointless because it was Sheppard making the decision and most likely he went with the simple military solution ie blow those asteroids up. I don't know enough to KNOW it would work but neither do you KNOW enough to be sure it wouldn't.



That was a modified jumper. And just because it had enough to do that large of a jump does not mean anything. The BC-304s and DSC-30Xs are able to jump into hyperspace how many times and able to travel how fast without a ZPM now? And they're running on non-Ancient fuel! Not to mention the fact that the power needed merely to open the hyperdrive window differs greatly depending on the size of the object. Of course a jumepr isn't gonna need much to go into Hyperspace!

Actually it means several things, we know that the power source that a single jumper contains (if its using its standard power supply which is yet to be seen in the next episode) is significant. Other arguments to prove this include extending the shield at the bottom of the ocean etc. To take that kind of pressure you need a horrendous amount of power output.
The fact that other craft are able to jump into hyperspace says nothing about the jumpers. You are assuming there is only one way to generate a hyperspace window.


And unlimited power means unlimited speed since when, now? Just because you take a Dodge Viper and interface it with a ZPM doesn't mean it'll be able to drive across Earth within 5 minutes.

I'm making no such assertion. what I am saying is that a jumpers acceleration and therefore max thrust can be quite high. By the way dodge vipers can't run on zpm's, they are combustion based, zpm's are electrical.



And we're back to complete speculation. They were in space... space. Atlantis is huge, huge! Several kilometers across. And it was obvious they were travelling at a very high speed. Did you know that jumpers are hollow cylinders? Not much mass to get there.

Precisely, no friction in space. The size of the city is irrelevant unless you know what its mass actually is. You are simply basing the weight of the city on todays technology but with technologies the ancients would have had available to them like nanomanufacturing (evidence they designed and used nanites) the city could weigh 1/4 to a half what you think it weighs.


Not to mention the fact that the city is, still, huge.

I believe I made the point that size does not necessarily equal weight. Even the puddlejumpers have inertial compensators which allow them to increase or decrease their weight as needed. which means the city likely has the same technology built into it.

Alipeeps
October 4th, 2007, 05:01 AM
Yes I know he said that and since I actually have some knowledge in the area of Space Engineering I know that doing so, attemption re-entry and landing with a damaged vessel, would be extremely idiotic*. But I'm not blaming you for following that line, it's a mistake made by the writers, they should really consult engineers on that issue.

* Compare it to a submarine with microfractures in its hull diving deeper and deeper from the surface. There is a large chance the microfractures will grow due to the increased pressure, or in Atlantis' case increasing gravity forces as well as re-entry and aerodynamic forces, and in that case the submarine will sink because the microfracture became fractures and this resulting in fatal structural damage.

You're talking about structural damage here. From what McKay said in the episode, the damage is to the power conduits, not the actual infrastructure of the city (therefore not meaning that the city is structurally weakened and more likely to break up on re-entry). Plus, they would *have* to have the shield at full power covering the entire city for re-entry anyway.. so the shield would be taking the strain of re-entry, not the physical structure of the city.



From what I gather from cannon that only depends on the person and was why Sheppard wasn't allowed to use the machine by Weir because they didn't know what he would turn into. But in the case of Rodney he would simply turn back into Ancient Rodney.

I guess that's a matter of interpretation then... from my understanding of what Rodney said at the end of Tao of Rodney, the effects of the machine are random and it cannot be predicted whether it will enhance someone or kill them... there was no mention of the random effect depending on the person and that your genetic make-up dictated whether it would enhance you or kill you. It is a random effect. Rodney was lucky it didn't turn him into goop not because his genetic make-up was one the machine liked but because the random effect of the machine worked in his favour on that one occasion.



I'll exclude your second part since it makes sense, but this part doesn't. More unlikely things have happened, especially in this episode. How large do you think the chance is that you drop from hyperspace, near an asteroid field and conviently close to a stash of ZPMs? Taking this into account, as well as Beckett's magical retro-virusses, it would be entirely in the line of prediction that they would stumble upon it.

But here's the thing.... if you were in that situation... if you were Sheppard or McKay.. would you let the survival of everyone in that base rest on the faint hope/random chance that you might be able to find in the database within the next 30 hours the information on how to make a ZPM (and the even more faint hope that you have the time and power to do so)? That's what we're talking about here... what the team *should* have done in that situation. Would your advice have been, "Spend the next 30 hours searching the database and hope you find how to make ZPMs"?



I'll stick to my argument which my education in Space Engineering is telling me would be the proper one. If you have all the tools and your structure in damaged it's easier to simply repair the ship in space because then there wouldn't be those nasty forces acting on your structure.

The only reason McKay, a scientist and not an engineer, probably said they had to land is because of the shield. But if you place the people in the jumpers you can completely turn off Atlantis and fix the problem in space and avoid re-entry with a damaged vessel (We all know how well re-entry with a damaged vessel goes don't we, see Columbia).

Anyway, since you don't have a background in (Space) Engineering I can understand why you prefer to follow McKay's, and thus the writers' who aren't engineers also, opinion. :)

I have to admit, I find it slightly amusing that you are using your "education in space engineering" to argue that you know better than the characters in the show how the technology of a flying, space-travelling ancient city works. Although set in the real(ish) world, SGA is a science fiction show and whilst you can extrapolate current knowledge to try and understand the principles involved, the premise of the show requires suspension of disbelief... and the conceit that the characters living within that universe who are specialists in that technology, know better than we do how it works and what best to do with it.

Personally, I'm happy to indulge that suspension of disbelief so, again, until you can show me that your eduction in space engineering includes Ancient city technology, structural limitations and shield technology, I'll continue to give precedence to McKay's expertise. :)

Vala_M
October 4th, 2007, 05:03 AM
They want to keep the shows separate is the real answer. Also, they DID NOT get the Odyssey's ZPM for Atlantis, contrary to what so many people on here said.

And I don't think that the ZPM's will be depleted in the movies, at least I hope that they won't, but rather not mentioned at all or just kept. Plus, isn't SG-1 going to the Ori galaxy to defeat them, not the other way around? So why would the Earth ZPM be in danger? Just the Odyssey's but in order to full drain it, they would have to suffer an attack similar to what Atlantis did at the hands of the Wraith in "The Seige, pt. 2".

That and according to Col. Ellis, the priorities of Earth and the IOA have changed so Atlantis is expendable, not Earth in their eyes.

Vala,

Sicktem
October 4th, 2007, 08:22 AM
And I don't think that the ZPM's will be depleted in the movies, at least I hope that they won't, but rather not mentioned at all or just kept. Plus, isn't SG-1 going to the Ori galaxy to defeat them, not the other way around? So why would the Earth ZPM be in danger? Just the Odyssey's but in order to full drain it, they would have to suffer an attack similar to what Atlantis did at the hands of the Wraith in "The Seige, pt. 2".

Just because they took the Odyssey to the Ori galaxy doesn't mean the Ori ships in the Milky Way are no longer around. They could've made a pass at Earth while the Odyssey was away for all we know. It's also possible the Odyssey took both ZPMs, but doubtful as that would leave Earth unprotected. However, a simpler explaination could be that we lost the Odyssey's ZPM and the conclusion of the Ori storyline isn't as final as we thought. So, Earth may be fearful that the remaining Ori ships will attack Earth and so they would never agree to give up their only ZPM. At this point it's anyone's guess, but my point is that it's not unreasonable to assume there's a logical explaination as to why they would never be able to get a replacement ZPM from Earth even if there was enough time to complete the exchange - Assuming they only have one ZPM: Unless Earth has a ship in orbit right now they may have to transport the ZPM from the outpost to the Stargate by traditional means on top of everything else (although they should have some cargo ships left over from season 10 now that I think about it).

garhkal
October 4th, 2007, 02:03 PM
Do we have proof that they could've piled everyone into the jumpers and not have the CO2 scrubbers (or whatever air circulation the PJs use) fail too soon? It all depends on this, after all, right?

Well we know they can last with a full team for a long time (15+ hrs), as evidenced by the Ancient one, where they found that old wraith on the planet. Now i seriously doubt they would have gone there without knowing if they had enough air to get back..


But here's the thing.... if you were in that situation... if you were Sheppard or McKay.. would you let the survival of everyone in that base rest on the faint hope/random chance that you might be able to find in the database within the next 30 hours the information on how to make a ZPM (and the even more faint hope that you have the time and power to do so)? That's what we're talking about here... what the team *should* have done in that situation. Would your advice have been, "Spend the next 30 hours searching the database and hope you find how to make ZPMs"?

Actualy not only do they have to find the knowledge, but some way to MAKE them... which i seriously doubt they could do in 30 hrs.

PG15
October 4th, 2007, 02:39 PM
Well we know they can last with a full team for a long time (15+ hrs), as evidenced by the Ancient one, where they found that old wraith on the planet. Now i seriously doubt they would have gone there without knowing if they had enough air to get back..

True, but that was only for 4 or 5 people. Who knows how many are still left in Atlantis.

And it just dawned on me that those who are in need of medical attention, i.e. Weir, would not be able to get said attention if they're stuck in Jumpers.

Steven_the_Atlantean
October 4th, 2007, 09:22 PM
No why steal a ZPM from the ASurans.... well for one the two ZPMS still in the Milky way are needed. The Oddessy needs its for battles against the Ori to power its Asgard weapons and shields and stuff. And the Earth one is obviously needed if the Ori ever attack Earth. And besides the Asurans have plenty to spare.

Hmmm, Fair enough the Odyssey need it’s ZPM for the fight against the Ori, but the ZPM just powers the shield and increased the speed in hyperspace travel, the Asgard core, powers the Asgard weapon and other Asgard modifications. HOWEVER, it is not always engaging battle with the Ori and plus Atlantis need one ZPM to make the jump into hyperspace, so Who cares about the Odysseys ZPM, Earth can now Dial the Midway station and send its ZPM over. (Look the Ori knows that Earth has weapons that are capable of destroying their ships, if they do send a wave against Earth it would be a suicide) so they wouldn’t launch an attack anytime soon!

But who cares now, :D Now that the expedition stole the ZPM from the Asurans (its so obvious and predictable that they successed but as we all know there is always a cliff hanger or loss), Atlantis has two ZPM’s :D so it’s a great start for season four!
But how long will they last for????

Gregorius
October 4th, 2007, 11:48 PM
You're talking about structural damage here. From what McKay said in the episode, the damage is to the power conduits, not the actual infrastructure of the city (therefore not meaning that the city is structurally weakened and more likely to break up on re-entry).

Have you seen the impact craters those asteriods left? I'd call that a severe weakening of structural integrety.


Plus, they would *have* to have the shield at full power covering the entire city for re-entry anyway.. so the shield would be taking the strain of re-entry, not the physical structure of the city.

I already considered that, but the main problem would be after re-entry when they land. The moment they have to power down the shield to make repairs the loads caused by the gravity could easily cause structurally damaged parts to collapse. Take for example the tower, it got serverely hit by the Asuran beam so it's logical to assume that besides the damage to the power conduits, who could also collapse due to a decreased structural integrity, there will also be structural damage to it.


But here's the thing.... if you were in that situation... if you were Sheppard or McKay.. would you let the survival of everyone in that base rest on the faint hope/random chance that you might be able to find in the database within the next 30 hours the information on how to make a ZPM (and the even more faint hope that you have the time and power to do so)? That's what we're talking about here... what the team *should* have done in that situation. Would your advice have been, "Spend the next 30 hours searching the database and hope you find how to make ZPMs"?

I wouldn't, I'd go for the shutting down completely and using the jumpers as lifesupport system so I could repair the power conduits properly solution.

You also have to keep in mind that this particular solution about looking for ZPMs in the database was more of a jest solution since more improbably things have happened.


I have to admit, I find it slightly amusing that you are using your "education in space engineering" to argue that you know better than the characters in the show how the technology of a flying, space-travelling ancient city works.

No, I'm using it to argue that I know better than the writers none of whom, as far as I'm aware of, have any education in the field of engineering and this reflects in McKay's line.

Small question: How would you repair a ship? Inside a dry dock, space, where you can access everything relatively easy and have little to no forces acting on your ship, or on a stormy sea, a planet, where there are extreme pressure forces acting on the ship, where it's tough to get to all the locations on the outside and where it's storming (See the storm as gravitational forces although it could storm on a planet)? (There is a reason that ST has the Planetia Utopia shipyards which are located in space and not on a planet)


Although set in the real(ish) world, SGA is a science fiction show and whilst you can extrapolate current knowledge to try and understand the principles involved, the premise of the show requires suspension of disbelief... and the conceit that the characters living within that universe who are specialists in that technology, know better than we do how it works and what best to do with it.

Sure, I could do that but as you said it's set in a real(ish) world and thus it will still be subjected to the same laws of physics as in our world. This makes it in my opinion either a fault of the writers or suddenly certain laws don't apply anymore in that world, such as common sense.


Personally, I'm happy to indulge that suspension of disbelief so, again, until you can show me that your eduction in space engineering includes Ancient city technology, structural limitations and shield technology, I'll continue to give precedence to McKay's expertise. :)

My education also includes common sense and quite the amount of mechanical engineering, those two are telling me that McKay, and thus the writers, are extremely wrong in this case.

Gregorius
October 4th, 2007, 11:52 PM
True, but that was only for 4 or 5 people. Who knows how many are still left in Atlantis.

And it just dawned on me that those who are in need of medical attention, i.e. Weir, would not be able to get said attention if they're stuck in Jumpers.

Jumper shields, they are stuck within the expanded shields the jumpers generate and the equipment could easily run on Naquada generators. Besides that, it probably wouldn't take too long to repair the power conduits and raise Atlantis' shield again.

On a sidenote: Who creates a city space ship and doesn't make it airtight when the shield has to be turned off? Talk about poor engineering.

Alipeeps
October 5th, 2007, 12:14 AM
Have you seen the impact craters those asteriods left? I'd call that a severe weakening of structural integrety.

Ahh but this isn't what we were talking about... we were talking about repairing the city's power supply/power conduits so that it can safely make planet-fall without needing to steal ZPMs from the Asurans to provide power. If you're now talking about having to also repair any structural damage from the asteroid impacts before being able to land the city, then you've changed the whole basis of the discussion... and it's going to take a LOT more than your theorised 60 hours leeway though using the jumpers to fix the asteroid damage we saw in Adrift.



I already considered that, but the main problem would be after re-entry when they land. The moment they have to power down the shield to make repairs the loads caused by the gravity could easily cause structurally damaged parts to collapse. Take for example the tower, it got serverely hit by the Asuran beam so it's logical to assume that besides the damage to the power conduits, who could also collapse due to a decreased structural integrity, there will also be structural damage to it.

But they wouldn't die of asphyxiation in the vacuum of space would they? Again, you're changing the parameters of the discussion here... the premise of this discussion is whether there was a better way for them to resolve the situation of them being trapped in space with failing power than the writers' solution of stealing ZPMs from the Asurans. How they manage landing the city on a planet and the consequences of the structural damage within a gravity environment is a whole different discussion... all that comes after they've dealt with getting enough power to get the city into hyperspace and avoid dying in space.



No, I'm using it to argue that I know better than the writers none of whom, as far as I'm aware of, have any education in the field of engineering and this reflects in McKay's line.

You don't actually know what education the writers have though, do you? ;) Given that they've spent four years writing SGA scripts (and for some of them, more years writing SG1 scripts) and writing plenty of technical/scientific/engineering technobabble for McKay and Zelenka and Carter etc, it's reasonable to suspect that they either have some understanding of such principles themselves or have advisors on such matters or actually do some research. Plus, then there's the whole fiction part of the writing...



Small question: How would you repair a ship? Inside a dry dock, space, where you can access everything relatively easy and have little to no forces acting on your ship, or on a stormy sea, a planet, where there are extreme pressure forces acting on the ship, where it's tough to get to all the locations on the outside and where it's storming (See the storm as gravitational forces although it could storm on a planet)? (There is a reason that ST has the Planetia Utopia shipyards which are located in space and not on a planet)

Your analogy is specious. Repairing the city in space is not quite the easier/safer dry dock option you suggest... even if they could use the jumpers in the way you suggest, you're talking about people working in zero gravity, in bulky spacesuits (witness Radek's comment about the gloves making it harder/slower for him to complete the repairs on the control array) with every hour that passes bringing increased risk of encountering some other hazard and brining them closer to death by asphxiation. On a planet, however, the only force acting on the city is the relatively weak (as these things go) force of gravity and there is the advantage that if something does go wrong or the repairs can't be completed, or completed quickly, or even if the city suffers any structural collapse, the people won't die from lack of breathable atmosphere.

P.S. The reason the Utopia shipyards are in space is partly because a lot of the ships built are never meant to enter atmosphere and are not designed for planetary landfall and/or take-off.



Sure, I could do that but as you said it's set in a real(ish) world and thus it will still be subjected to the same laws of physics as in our world. This makes it in my opinion either a fault of the writers or suddenly certain laws don't apply anymore in that world, such as common sense.

My education also includes common sense and quite the amount of mechanical engineering, those two are telling me that McKay, and thus the writers, are extremely wrong in this case.

See, this is where I have an issue with your argument. I'm not saying there's necessarily anything wrong with your suggestion of using the jumpers etc.. we don't know that it would work and we don't know that it wouldn't work. It's an interesting alternative theory on how to resolve the crisis. The problem is, you are not presenting it as theory, you are presenting it as FACT. You are stating that the writers are wrong and you know better than them.

And despite your expertise in engineering, you still cannot account for the fact that you don't know anything about Ancient technology or architecture or structural compositions or jumper capabilities etc etc.. and McKay does.

When you present an alternative theory/suggestion for how they might have been able to resolve the crisis and discuss how or whether that might have worked, that's an interesting discussion. When you flat out state the writers are wrong and your solution definitely would have worked and they should have done what you suggest.. it comes across as kinda arrogant... and it doesn't allow for much discussion.

Alipeeps
October 5th, 2007, 12:17 AM
On a sidenote: Who creates a city space ship and doesn't make it airtight when the shield has to be turned off? Talk about poor engineering.

We've seen this several times before. As mentioned in The Storm and in Echoes, the Ancients relied (too heavily, it would seem) on the fact that they had the shield. With no concerns about being able to power the shield, it would never occur to the Ancients to plan for scenarios where the shield wasn't available. They would probably consider it poor engineering to even think about having the city in space without the shield.

FallenAngelII
October 5th, 2007, 08:15 AM
We've seen this several times before. As mentioned in The Storm and in Echoes, the Ancients relied (too heavily, it would seem) on the fact that they had the shield. With no concerns about being able to power the shield, it would never occur to the Ancients to plan for scenarios where the shield wasn't available. They would probably consider it poor engineering to even think about having the city in space without the shield.
And the reasons why are obvious:
They (and the Asurans) were capable of creating seemingly endless amounts of ZPMs and it's not like they used the city as some kind of luxury cruise. It's not like they moved around every few years.

wise one
October 9th, 2007, 11:31 AM
And the reasons why are obvious:
They (and the Asurans) were capable of creating seemingly endless amounts of ZPMs and it's not like they used the city as some kind of luxury cruise. It's not like they moved around every few years.

atlantis expidtion must of wasted enough zpm's more than the ancients could make them