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IrishPisano
September 29th, 2007, 07:34 AM
i think we can all agree with sheppard on how he handled the situation... especially given all we've seen and know about the asurans and replicators...

now who thinks sheppard should have knocked out McKay or done a little bit more to stop him when he first suggested it?

Ltcolshepjumper
September 29th, 2007, 07:57 AM
I do. Or at least had him locked up. Would've been more interesting.

Cautious Explorer
September 29th, 2007, 08:49 AM
Of course Sheppard was already suited up to go out into space at the time, so not a lot he could do right then. Great timing.

I'm not sure the apology should have been accepted so easily either. Sure, in the middle of an emergency situation is not the time to dwell on grudges, but I think there should be some consequences. It would have made more sense for Sheppard to tell McKay they'd deal with it later.

IrishPisano
September 29th, 2007, 09:46 AM
Of course Sheppard was already suited up to go out into space at the time, so not a lot he could do right then. Great timing.

I'm not sure the apology should have been accepted so easily either. Sure, in the middle of an emergency situation is not the time to dwell on grudges, but I think there should be some consequences. It would have made more sense for Sheppard to tell McKay they'd deal with it later.

tru, the priority was fixing/saving atlantis... they should have a disciplinary board for McKay when the time's right... especially if the nanites are reactivated by the borg... i'm sorry, the asurans...

2. if i were weir, i'd kill myself to spare atlantis from the possible reactivation of the nanites

gebtkd
September 29th, 2007, 10:04 AM
I can't believe there is a tread about this. Talk about double standard.
How many times, Sheppard has disobeyed Weir instruction to save one person. He has always been a loose cannon, Mister I follow my own rule, but has there been a tread about disciplinary action against Sheppard? Of course not, Weir always came back as the bad one, She was wrong and he was right. Don't get me wrong, I like Sheppard, and it was funny to see that he was the voice of reason and Rodney was the loose cannon, however, John & Rodney were the leaders at the time and needed to show that they were working together. Also, by accepting Rodney's apology, I believe Sheppard proved that he wasn't completely against the plan. He does trust Rodney. I also think people should wait until Lifeline to see the development of the story. Reactivating the nanite could have an impact on the storyline. Everyone is always pointing Rodney's mistakes, but he is not the only one who has made them, however, nobody else ever get that thrown back in their faces. Whooping boy again, the guy is the one keeping them from all dying right now and he came up with the idea of not only the hyperdrive for the jumper but also going to steal the ZPM from the Asurans. Give the guy a break.

Cautious Explorer
September 29th, 2007, 10:08 AM
tru, the priority was fixing/saving atlantis... they should have a disciplinary board for McKay when the time's right... especially if the nanites are reactivated by the borg... i'm sorry, the asurans...

2. if i were weir, i'd kill myself to spare atlantis from the possible reactivation of the nanites

They may want to include Keller in that disciplinary hearing. She knew Sheppards decision, yet kept urging McKay on as if Sheppard had given the go ahead.

But since nobody else has ever received more than a verbal reprimand for disobeying orders in the series, I wouldn't expect anything formal. I think it's a little more serious than something that can be excused by a brief apology. Especially when Rodney is making comments like "I know you're not happy with me, and you may have some cause." He still doesn't seem to have a clue what he's done wrong here.

blue-skyz
September 29th, 2007, 10:47 AM
I think it's a little more serious than something that can be excused by a brief apology. Especially when Rodney is making comments like "I know you're not happy with me, and you may have some cause." He still doesn't seem to have a clue what he's done wrong here.
I think for McKay that much of an apology was equivalent to getting down and begging for forgiveness. It is so like McKay to say “you MAY have some cause.” The first thing Elizabeth said to them after they told her about the nanites had to be that it was a big mistake. The same kind of thing that she repeats to Teyla later. By the time he apologized, McKay had to know that he was wrong about what Elizabeth would want.

Spoilers for Lifeline
Even if the nanites contribute to saving their lives and Atlantis, that doesn’t retroactively make what McKay did okay. I think there will be future consequences.

I don’t think Keller shares the blame. McKay had to be the one to determine if the state of the nanites would be safe enough for Sheppard. He knew they weren’t, but at that point he felt like he would be responsible for Elizabeth’s death. The point he didn’t understand, that Sheppard did, was that Sheppard had already assumed the responsibility for Elizabeth’s death.

IrishPisano
September 29th, 2007, 11:28 AM
keller should be verbally reprimanded to a small extent... it is her job to save people... and against her oath to let someone die when she has the ability to save them


mckay, however, is vastly more responsible for the situation and should be disciplined accordingly...

it would be nice to see sheppard come down hard on McKay for this as it would add some complexity to Mr. Rule-Breaker... of course, when you go from being an underling to being the one in command, one's views can and sometimes do change... it would be a nice char evolution for sheppard...

but of course it looks like the decision on rodney and keller might be saved until they see what happens with weir... besides, atlantis has a slightly skewed portrayal of the military and i doubt they'd allow a storyline where the #2 civilian in atlantis has his ass handed to him...

kymeric
September 29th, 2007, 12:54 PM
I can't believe there is a tread about this. Talk about double standard.
How many times, Sheppard has disobeyed Weir instruction to save one person. He has always been a loose cannon, Mister I follow my own rule, but has there been a tread about disciplinary action against Sheppard? Of course not, Weir always came back as the bad one, She was wrong and he was right. Don't get me wrong, I like Sheppard, and it was funny to see that he was the voice of reason and Rodney was the loose cannon, however, John & Rodney were the leaders at the time and needed to show that they were working together. Also, by accepting Rodney's apology, I believe Sheppard proved that he wasn't completely against the plan. He does trust Rodney. I also think people should wait until Lifeline to see the development of the story. Reactivating the nanite could have an impact on the storyline. Everyone is always pointing Rodney's mistakes, but he is not the only one who has made them, however, nobody else ever get that thrown back in their faces. Whooping boy again, the guy is the one keeping them from all dying right now and he came up with the idea of not only the hyperdrive for the jumper but also going to steal the ZPM from the Asurans. Give the guy a break.

Haha, u know what it is? For the first time everyones lives are on his @$$. Not soo easy to be risky when hes the boss. He flipped over saving one person in afganistan, imagine if he killed 50-60 or how ever many a skeletion crew is.

VSS
September 29th, 2007, 01:27 PM
Hate to disagree with most of you, but this is Keller's fault. She, as the doctor in charge, has the last word regarding what happens to any patient in that infirmary. And yes, she has the obligation to save a life (even an enemy, as we have seen several times on SG-1) but the definition of "life" is not clearly defined. That is why, in real life, we have things called "living wills". In this situation Elizabeth was clearly not happy to have been saved, because she doesn't have the life she knew, and furthermore, is a potential danger to everyone else. When I saw Keller accept McKay's proposal to use the nanites, the only thing I could think of was that Keller was new and didn't know very much about the nanites and replicators. She didn't question him nearly as much as she should have. She was uninformed and unable to render a sound medical decision.

Primum non nocere, Dr. Keller. First, do no harm.

IrishPisano
September 29th, 2007, 06:03 PM
Hate to disagree with most of you, but this is Keller's fault. She, as the doctor in charge, has the last word regarding what happens to any patient in that infirmary. And yes, she has the obligation to save a life (even an enemy, as we have seen several times on SG-1) but the definition of "life" is not clearly defined. That is why, in real life, we have things called "living wills". In this situation Elizabeth was clearly not happy to have been saved, because she doesn't have the life she knew, and furthermore, is a potential danger to everyone else. When I saw Keller accept McKay's proposal to use the nanites, the only thing I could think of was that Keller was new and didn't know very much about the nanites and replicators. She didn't question him nearly as much as she should have. She was uninformed and unable to render a sound medical decision.

Primum non nocere, Dr. Keller. First, do no harm.

actually, in a situation like that, where the security of the Atlantis base and, possibly, earth is at stake, Sheppard, as acting base commander, has the authority to override the chief medical officer's decisions in the interest of base security...

and yes, Sheppard was base commander, not Weir, and not McKay...

Weir was out of commission and since Atlantis was under seige and in an active state of war with the Asurans, authority would fall to Sheppard who should have established martial law in the city...

rarocks24
September 29th, 2007, 06:10 PM
I can't believe there is a tread about this. Talk about double standard.
How many times, Sheppard has disobeyed Weir instruction to save one person. He has always been a loose cannon, Mister I follow my own rule, but has there been a tread about disciplinary action against Sheppard? Of course not, Weir always came back as the bad one, She was wrong and he was right. Don't get me wrong, I like Sheppard, and it was funny to see that he was the voice of reason and Rodney was the loose cannon, however, John & Rodney were the leaders at the time and needed to show that they were working together. Also, by accepting Rodney's apology, I believe Sheppard proved that he wasn't completely against the plan. He does trust Rodney. I also think people should wait until Lifeline to see the development of the story. Reactivating the nanite could have an impact on the storyline. Everyone is always pointing Rodney's mistakes, but he is not the only one who has made them, however, nobody else ever get that thrown back in their faces. Whooping boy again, the guy is the one keeping them from all dying right now and he came up with the idea of not only the hyperdrive for the jumper but also going to steal the ZPM from the Asurans. Give the guy a break.

And yet, he disobeyed a direct order from Col. Sheppard. Regardless of whether it paid off for Atlantis in the end. Given how easily Atlantis was able to steal the ZPM, they probably could have done it without the help of Dr. Weir.

Actually, they do. There are consequences for every action. Not only was it dangerous and reckless on the part of Mckay, it was against the wishes of Dr Weir, and she herself admitted it was too great the risk.

ToasterOnFire
September 29th, 2007, 06:22 PM
Come on, no one ever suffers serious or long term consequences on this show unless their character is dumped or killed. TPTB haven't written it for 3 seasons, why start now? :rolleyes:

rarocks24
September 29th, 2007, 06:25 PM
Come on, no one ever suffers serious or long term consequences on this show unless their character is dumped or killed. TPTB haven't written it for 3 seasons, why start now? :rolleyes:

Which is unfortunate, they really should. But I digress, if they did that, there wouldn't be a show would there? Hell, if they were held accountable for their actions, SG1, Atlantis, things would be a LOT different.

McKayManiacs92
September 29th, 2007, 06:35 PM
I thought the apology was fine, I kind of took Sheppard's quick acceptance as how Sheppard didn't want Weir to die either or anything...no one on Atlantis did, hence the extreme measures to save her. There was a way to save Weir but they were not willing to do it only because they were unsure about the nanites contacting the Asurans and so on....and no one knew for sure (unless you count Shep) until the nanites were already activated and Weir was back that her wishes would have been against it. Sheppard was right about Weir, but how was McKay suppose to know that...how was anyone suppose to know 100% without her telling them (which she hadn't) that was her wishes.

Plus, by the time McKay gave the apology to Shep about reactivating the nanites it was already too late (I believe) for the hyperdrive to work- so it's not like they could have gone anywhere anyways. Would they rather let her die and then they all would have died or save her and deal with whatever happens next?

VSS
September 29th, 2007, 07:01 PM
actually, in a situation like that, where the security of the Atlantis base and, possibly, earth is at stake, Sheppard, as acting base commander, has the authority to override the chief medical officer's decisions in the interest of base security...

and yes, Sheppard was base commander, not Weir, and not McKay...

Weir was out of commission and since Atlantis was under seige and in an active state of war with the Asurans, authority would fall to Sheppard who should have established martial law in the city...

Okay, I can agree with that. My beef is the interaction between McKay and Keller. That's where Keller failed. By acting on incomplete information, she failed to act in the best interests of her patient. She let McKay roll right over her.

gebtkd
September 29th, 2007, 07:32 PM
Okay, I can agree with that. My beef is the interaction between McKay and Keller. That's where Keller failed. By acting on incomplete information, she failed to act in the best interests of her patient. She let McKay roll right over her.
Were you watching the same show? She knew exactly what she was asking Rodney. She read the report from Carson and I think everybody seem to forget that Keller has been on Atlantis this whole time. She did not appear out of thin air. In First Strike that was made clear, so she is not the naive new arrival from earth. Second, Rodney did not roll over her. She told him time was running out and he acted on what she was telling him. He obviously did not want Weir to die and was confident that he neutralized the nanites. Again, this tread is pointless. In my opinion, Sheppard should have been reprimanded several times for going against orders in past episodes, but because it's Sheppard it's o.k. and it's not when it's Rodney. Again, double standard, obviously this tread is written by Sheppard's fan who are not looking at this objectively. Sheppard has made several bad decisions in the past, like McKay, like Weir, that's what make the show interesting, they are human and they do make mistakes and learn from them. That's why I was so concerned about having Carter on the show because miss perfect never makes mistakes. That's not what the show need, it needs to continue to show that this people are totally out of their elements and although they have learned through experience how to deal with certain things, they still have a lot more to learn from the Pegasus galaxy.

Trek_Girl42
September 29th, 2007, 08:03 PM
I thought the apology was fine, I kind of took Sheppard's quick acceptance as how Sheppard didn't want Weir to die either or anything...no one on Atlantis did, hence the extreme measures to save her. There was a way to save Weir but they were not willing to do it only because they were unsure about the nanites contacting the Asurans and so on....and no one knew for sure (unless you count Shep) until the nanites were already activated and Weir was back that her wishes would have been against it. Sheppard was right about Weir, but how was McKay suppose to know that...how was anyone suppose to know 100% without her telling them (which she hadn't) that was her wishes.

Plus, by the time McKay gave the apology to Shep about reactivating the nanites it was already too late (I believe) for the hyperdrive to work- so it's not like they could have gone anywhere anyways. Would they rather let her die and then they all would have died or save her and deal with whatever happens next?
I really liked the apology- did he absolutely have to? No. But I would have been unhappy if he hadn't. Mckay's a good guy, and when it comes down to the really important moments and the big stuff, he apologises, he admits things he wouldn't otherwise say, he shows his caring side. From an unemotional perspective he made a huge mistake (I think) in disobeying Sheppard's orders. But then again, I'd probably have done the exact same thing Mckay did, if I had that much confidence in myself. :P Mckay apologises because he wants things to be okay between them, even if they disagreed, because that's needed in their situation. This was Mckay's way of communicating, "I disobeyed you this time, but I still respect you". I think Sheppard is still going to be pretty upset with Mckay for disobeying his orders, but that apology was the opening for them not to let it set a rift. If it hadn't happened, there would be all sorts of questions over Sheppard's leadership, Sheppard lets people walk after disobeying orders blah blah blah, this is a bit of an out. We can't forget that Mckay put Sheppard in a position of almost having to give the order to kill Weir. So as a good person, he owed that apology, even if he didn't need to give it.

garhkal
September 29th, 2007, 08:20 PM
it does seem like McCay has cooled off his normal tactless self since Tao.. and i see his quickness to aplogise to shep as sign of that.

Lauriel
September 29th, 2007, 08:30 PM
it does seem like McCay has cooled off his normal tactless self since Tao.. and i see his quickness to aplogise to shep as sign of that.

And the emotional aspects of his decision in the first place. He willingly made the decision and overrode Sheps preexisting order because he cared for Elizabeth and didn't want her to die. His commitment to his emotions rather than his logic/science views marks this change as well, IMO.

IrishPisano
September 29th, 2007, 08:45 PM
And the emotional aspects of his decision in the first place. He willingly made the decision and overrode Sheps preexisting order because he cared for Elizabeth and didn't want her to die. His commitment to his emotions rather than his logic/science views marks this change as well, IMO.

i felt the apology was only half felt from McKay... and i'm pretty sure, though i don't like it, that we won't see any real after effects of the Rodney-Sheppard incident...

what astounds me, though, is mckay's sheer inability to know his own limitations, especially in a situation like this... they're talking about reprogramming ASURAN nanites... not replicators, not asgard tech, but ASURAN tech... somewhere deep down i'm pretty sure that mckay knew that he could not be 100% positive, but his ego and desire to be smartest and right forced his hand... and this is kind of glossed over...

it would be nice if the nanites are reactivated by the asurans, weir turns into Picard-Locutus, atlantis is compromised, and McKay is faced, finally, with the realization that he is not always right... and he actually comes to terms with it...

but i think it would take something more than this happening to weir to really wake him up, maybe if his ego-ineptitude harms carter or his sister we'll see it happen...

and it has to happen otherwise his character will not have changed and that, literarily speaking, is not good...

Lauriel
September 29th, 2007, 08:48 PM
I agree about his ego - but that has been inherent in his character since the very beginning. However, I feel in this circumstance it was his care for Wier that was driving him, not his ego or desire to prove himself right. However, his overconfidence in these areas does leave room for an interesting plot regarding Wier's future. :D

Nitegate
September 29th, 2007, 10:09 PM
I do. Or at least had him locked up. Would've been more interesting.

yeah they should lock him up for caring about a friends life and while the city is ready to lose their shield in the vast of space. :mckay:

Trek_Girl42
September 29th, 2007, 11:38 PM
And the emotional aspects of his decision in the first place. He willingly made the decision and overrode Sheps preexisting order because he cared for Elizabeth and didn't want her to die. His commitment to his emotions rather than his logic/science views marks this change as well, IMO.
I like this evolution for Mckay- he can't be completely insulting all the time, and with the way he is, the moment when he does go out on a limb and make emotional pronouncements when faced with death, they actually have resounding impact. He's an absolute jerk to all these people, but it doesn't mean that he doesn't care about them! And he'll go back to being condescending next week. The important thing is that he gets these moments- it shows why his team puts up with him, and why they do like him, as much as he drives them nuts. I also think his actions in this ep very much stem from "Tao of Rodney" when Weir was trying so hard to persuade him to ascend. This is very much a reversal of that. As certain as he is of himself, I don't think that he'd have taken the same risk a couple of seasons ago, I think he would have agreed with Sheppard; it's some nice character growth.

Lauriel
September 30th, 2007, 02:26 AM
I like this evolution for Mckay- he can't be completely insulting all the time, and with the way he is, the moment when he does go out on a limb and make emotional pronouncements when faced with death, they actually have resounding impact. He's an absolute jerk to all these people, but it doesn't mean that he doesn't care about them! And he'll go back to being condescending next week. The important thing is that he gets these moments- it shows why his team puts up with him, and why they do like him, as much as he drives them nuts. I also think his actions in this ep very much stem from "Tao of Rodney" when Weir was trying so hard to persuade him to ascend. This is very much a reversal of that. As certain as he is of himself, I don't think that he'd have taken the same risk a couple of seasons ago, I think he would have agreed with Sheppard; it's some nice character growth.

Bingo! Well said. I can't green you, so have some mental green. :D I loved that you pointed out that this is one of the reasons why his team accept him as a friend and teammate, not just put up with him for his abilities. These moments of caring and protecting McKay really show the his heart, as do the occasional vulnerable moments we see.

Willow'sCat
September 30th, 2007, 02:52 AM
I can't believe there is a tread about this. Talk about double standard.
How many times, Sheppard has disobeyed Weir instruction to save one person. He has always been a loose cannon, Mister I follow my own rule, but has there been a tread about disciplinary action against Sheppard? Of course not, Weir always came back as the bad one, She was wrong and he was right. Don't get me wrong, I like Sheppard, and it was funny to see that he was the voice of reason and Rodney was the loose cannon, however, John & Rodney were the leaders at the time and needed to show that they were working together. Also, by accepting Rodney's apology, I believe Sheppard proved that he wasn't completely against the plan. He does trust Rodney. I also think people should wait until Lifeline to see the development of the story. Reactivating the nanite could have an impact on the storyline. Everyone is always pointing Rodney's mistakes, but he is not the only one who has made them, however, nobody else ever get that thrown back in their faces. Whooping boy again, the guy is the one keeping them from all dying right now and he came up with the idea of not only the hyperdrive for the jumper but also going to steal the ZPM from the Asurans. Give the guy a break.I am in mostly agreement with you. I don't buy Sheppard's acceptance of the apology, he looked grumpy to me :p but yeah funny I thought McKay was third in charge so surely he had every right to try this, and as you say Sheppard has disobeyed so many direct order in the past anyway.... So this just came off as incredibly hypocritical of Sheppard. :mckay:

Bottom line; McKay was trying to save his leader, not trying to bake a fraking cake! He took it seriously, he wouldn't have tried it if he really hadn't believed it would work... it did work:cool:

Unlike a little thing in season 2/3 with Sheppard and Carson and the retro virus :cool: :rolleyes:

McKay is not the bad guy here. ;) And to me he has always shown he cares, why some are surprised is beyond me... I couldn't have him as my fave character if I didn't think he had compassion and understanding... he just hides it better then say Teyla. :);)

bluealien
September 30th, 2007, 04:49 AM
I am in mostly agreement with you. I don't buy Sheppard's acceptance of the apology, he looked grumpy to me :p but yeah funny I thought McKay was third in charge so surely he had every right to try this, and as you say Sheppard has disobeyed so many direct order in the past anyway.... So this just came off as incredibly hypocritical of Sheppard. :mckay:

Bottom line; McKay was trying to save his leader, not trying to bake a fraking cake! He took it seriously, he wouldn't have tried it if he really hadn't believed it would work... it did work:cool:

Unlike a little thing in season 2/3 with Sheppard and Carson and the retro virus :cool: :rolleyes:

McKay is not the bad guy here. ;) And to me he has always shown he cares, why some are surprised is beyond me... I couldn't have him as my fave character if I didn't think he had compassion and understanding... he just hides it better then say Teyla. :);)

I don't think anyone disagrees that Rodney doesn't care but he let his emotions get in the way. It was very noble that he wanted to save Weir but at the same time he was putting the lives of the entire expedition in danger. I don't see anything hypocritical in Sheppards actions.. He was the base commander and had every right to expect Rodney to follow his orders. As to Sheppard disobying orders in the past.. in Afghanistan he risked only his own life to save his friend... not anyone elses. In Hot Zone he did what he did to save the entire expedition.. as he didnt fully trust Weirs action at that time. In the Return he risked only his own life to save Atlantis... his team were there of their own free will. In The Ark, again Sheppard only risked his own life to save Teyla... so these are all very different to Rodneys situation.

Rodney's confidence that he can work miracles with ancient/alien technology has been tested before .. ie Trinity.. and as Sheppard knows ... nothing is guaranteed when it comes to operating alien technology, so Rodney could never be sure that he could prevent Weir from sending a signal to the rest of the Asurans and that is why Sheppard didn't want Rodney to re-activate the nanites, and was so angry at him when he did.

VSS
September 30th, 2007, 05:46 AM
Were you watching the same show? She knew exactly what she was asking Rodney. She read the report from Carson and I think everybody seem to forget that Keller has been on Atlantis this whole time. She did not appear out of thin air. In First Strike that was made clear, so she is not the naive new arrival from earth. Second, Rodney did not roll over her. She told him time was running out and he acted on what she was telling him. He obviously did not want Weir to die and was confident that he neutralized the nanites. Again, this tread is pointless. In my opinion, Sheppard should have been reprimanded several times for going against orders in past episodes, but because it's Sheppard it's o.k. and it's not when it's Rodney. Again, double standard, obviously this tread is written by Sheppard's fan who are not looking at this objectively. Sheppard has made several bad decisions in the past, like McKay, like Weir, that's what make the show interesting, they are human and they do make mistakes and learn from them. That's why I was so concerned about having Carter on the show because miss perfect never makes mistakes. That's not what the show need, it needs to continue to show that this people are totally out of their elements and although they have learned through experience how to deal with certain things, they still have a lot more to learn from the Pegasus galaxy.

It's unnecessary to be rude. I'm quite certain of the TV program I watched on Friday night. And yes, I am aware Keller didn't just get off the boat, but she wasn't in charge when Weir got the nanites in the first place. What would Beckett have done? The bottom line is, it was her decision to make, not McKay's. She is the doctor, not McKay. She could have stopped him and she didn't. So my point remains the same. It's Kellers fault Weir's in the shape she's in. Sheppard wasn't even around when the decision was made. Whether or not McKay should be reprimanded is beside the point, to me. He was doing what McKay does, but Keller wasn't doing what she should have.

elbo
September 30th, 2007, 07:03 AM
I don't see how Rodney was wrong to reactivate the nanites. Sheppard asked him if he was sure he can control the nanites. Well he was! What is the problem? Sheppard do not have such deep scientific expertise and he must trust the expertise of one of the finest scientist we have.

There was no specific order of Sheppard, to not pursue this solution, but just an unfinished discussion, which left the door open, if Rodney is able to programm the nanites in such way to not connect the Asuran colective. Then a time constrain decision, when there wasn't phisicaly thhe time for a meatphisical-scientific debate trough radio between Rodney and Shepp.

About 'Lifeline':



The nanites are behaving in Rodney's programming; more the Rodney's decision is the one that make the mission possible in the first place.

At the 'Adrift' moment and the Atlantis situation, we have actualy more to gain from the replicators than what they could have gained for us.

And before consider Rodney recless in 'Adrift', consider that Sheppard aproove a similar mission in 'Lifeline', which could have ended with much more damage than Atlantis being destroyed.

But recless do not mean necesarely bad. If they would have played 100% safe, they will all be dead right now, in tha vacuum.



Remember that SG series are based on both following orders and sometimes breaking them. There is absolutely no character to not at least once broke an order. And who decide when a order can be broken? The character do, regarding the circumstances.

I still belive that in this case we deal more with expoiting a order, than with breaking it.

Cautious Explorer
September 30th, 2007, 07:41 AM
I don't see how Rodney was wrong to reactivate the nanites. Sheppard asked him if he was sure he can control the nanites. Well he was! What is the problem? Sheppard do not have such deep scientific expertise and he must trust the expertise of one of the finest scientist we have.

There was no specific order of Sheppard, to not pursue this solution, but just an unfinished discussion, which left the door open, if Rodney is able to programm the nanites in such way to not connect the Asuran colective. Then a time constrain decision, when there wasn't phisicaly thhe time for a meatphisical-scientific debate trough radio between Rodney and Shepp.

About 'Lifeline':



The nanites are behaving in Rodney's programming; more the Rodney's decision is the one that make the mission possible in the first place.

At the 'Adrift' moment and the Atlantis situation, we have actualy more to gain from the replicators than what they could have gained for us.

And before consider Rodney recless in 'Adrift', consider that Sheppard aproove a similar mission in 'Lifeline', which could have ended with much more damage than Atlantis being destroyed.

But recless do not mean necesarely bad. If they would have played 100% safe, they will all be dead right now, in tha vacuum.



Remember that SG series are based on both following orders and sometimes breaking them. There is absolutely no character to not at least once broke an order. And who decide when a order can be broken? The character do, regarding the circumstances.

I still belive that in this case we deal more with expoiting a order, than with breaking it.

Which way was it, an open-ended conversation or exploiting an order? Can't be both.

IMO Sheppard ordered McKay not to do it. McKay pushed and Sheppard ended the conversation. Leaving the answer as "no" until the conversation was resumed at a later date and McKay could assure Sheppard that activating the nanites would not be a security risk to Atlantis.

McKay's guilty reaction when Sheppard realized what he had done, makes it very clear that McKay took it as an order -- not just a dropped conversation.

elbo
September 30th, 2007, 08:22 AM
I have respectfully to disagree.

Sheppard said: "I'm not having this conversation UNTIL you are sure". The word 'until' suggest that that there wasn't a order either way, just a ball passed to Rodney. If you have the script that present Sheppard's order to drop the matter, then please let me see it (otherwise is not an order).

Following the proper chain of command (Rodney second in command) and considering the fact that wasn't enough time to contact Sheppard and explain him the basics of programming miroscopic technological organisms, Rodney was entitle to take this scientific/medical based decision, either way.

The main concern was if Rodney is able (sure) to program the nanites in such way to not be a danger for the the city and he was.

Sheppard said later: "You can't be sure", which i sincerly find childish, an verdict ouside of his skills. Rodney is head of science department and probably the finest expert in nanite technology, which means that he must recive credit in this domain.

Cautious Explorer
September 30th, 2007, 08:47 AM
I have respectfully to disagree.

Sheppard said: "I'm not having this conversation UNTIL you are sure". The word 'until' suggest that that there wasn't a order either way, just a ball passed to Rodney. If you have the script that present Sheppard's order to drop the matter, then please let me see it (otherwise is not an order).

Following the proper chain of command (Rodney second in command) and considering the fact that wasn't enough time to contact Sheppard and explain him the basics of programming miroscopic technological organisms, Rodney was entitle to take this scientific/medical based decision, either way.

The main concern was if Rodney is able (sure) to program the nanites in such way to not be a danger for the the city and he was.

Sheppard said later: "You can't be sure", which i sincerly find childish, an verdict ouside of his skills. Rodney is head of science department and probably the finest expert in nanite technology, which means that he must recive credit in this domain.

Thank you for clarifying. So you believe it was strictly an open-ended conversation between Sheppard and McKay, as opposed to your later statement that McKay was exploiting an order.

I have to wonder though, because it's my understanding that Sheppard was never out of radio contact, but I could be wrong here, why McKay didn't at least give him a heads up. Tell Sheppard he's solved the problem and as they've previously discussed, Keller is now using the nanites to heal Weir. Instead, he kept quiet and looked guilty when Sheppard showed up. That's my interpretation anyway.

elbo
September 30th, 2007, 09:06 AM
That's where the exploiting part come in. Not exploiting a order (my mistake), but exploiting a open-ended discussion. Rodney took a little initiative by himself and i think that he purposly avoided to contact Shep, even if this was possible.

From the time when he had the first conversation with Sheppard and until the deadline, he was able to program the nanite cells accordingly (which we find out in the dialog with Keller). But how can you convince a military person, that you are sure, without making him understand the principles of programming nanites? And do this by radio?

So he go for it, avoiding an unconvenient dialog, and remember, saved a life without producing danger to the city. You can say that he was SURE, as a fact. That's why i cannot see him violence worthy, as some people suggest.

lirenel
September 30th, 2007, 01:09 PM
I have to say, I'm on the "Rodney-defenders" side here, if only because of the fact that Sheppard has routinely disobeyed orders without any consequence, so it seems. Granted, as someone pointed out, often he was only endangering himself. (though Hot Zone was different, as he endangered the whole city by breaking quarantine) However, as military commander of Atlantis, he really shouldn't be allowed to take the risks he does, leaving Atlantis without a military commander if anything happens to him.

Anyway, I thought it was good to see Rodney think with his heart along with his head. In "The Eye" he had to be convinced to give Ford, Carson, and Teyla two minutes to save them, despite the danger to the city. Now he was willing to take a risk to save a life (and what he perceived to be a minimal risk at that!)

bluealien
September 30th, 2007, 01:23 PM
I don't see how Rodney was wrong to reactivate the nanites. Sheppard asked him if he was sure he can control the nanites. Well he was! What is the problem? Sheppard do not have such deep scientific expertise and he must trust the expertise of one of the finest scientist we have.

Rodney was not able to guarantee that he could control the nanites... and he has been proved wrong before. In Trinity he insisted severel times that he could control the energy in the black hole, and look how that turned out.


There was no specific order of Sheppard, to not pursue this solution, but just an unfinished discussion, which left the door open, if Rodney is able to programm the nanites in such way to not connect the Asuran colective. Then a time constrain decision, when there wasn't phisicaly thhe time for a meatphisical-scientific debate trough radio between Rodney and Shepp.

Sheppard told Rodney not to re-activate the nanites.. to me that was a clear order.

About 'Lifeline':




The nanites are behaving in Rodney's programming; more the Rodney's decision is the one that make the mission possible in the first place.

At the 'Adrift' moment and the Atlantis situation, we have actualy more to gain from the replicators than what they could have gained for us.

And before consider Rodney recless in 'Adrift', consider that Sheppard aproove a similar mission in 'Lifeline', which could have ended with much more damage than Atlantis being destroyed.

No the nanites did not behave in Rodneys programme... when Weir left the jumper and he tried to de-activate them, it didn't work... so he had already lost control of her and she could have posed a huge threat to them if Oberoth had suceeded in reprogramming the nanites in her.. it looked like he was succeeding and obviously by now Weir could already be in the control of the Asurans... This is exactly what Sheppard was trying to prevent when he ordered Rodney not to re-activate the nanites.. and even Weir agreed with him


But recless do not mean necesarely bad. If they would have played 100% safe, they will all be dead right now, in tha vacuum.



Not sure what you mean by dead in the vacuum.. the outcome could have been potentially much worse... it turned out that Weir did in fact help them.. but who knows what kind of a threat she will pose in the future.


Remember that SG series are based on both following orders and sometimes breaking them. There is absolutely no character to not at least once broke an order. And who decide when a order can be broken? The character do, regarding the circumstances.

I don't see it as a given that all characters have to disoby orders but as you say if they do the circumstances have to be taken into acount for each instance. Rodneys actions may have been a touch reckless as he didnt really think about the outcome.. but his heart was in the right place.. he acted on his emotions to save a friend.

technoextreme
September 30th, 2007, 01:37 PM
i felt the apology was only half felt from McKay... and i'm pretty sure, though i don't like it, that we won't see any real after effects of the Rodney-Sheppard incident...

what astounds me, though, is mckay's sheer inability to know his own limitations, especially in a situation like this... they're talking about reprogramming ASURAN nanites... not replicators, not asgard tech, but ASURAN tech... somewhere deep down i'm pretty sure that mckay knew that he could not be 100% positive, but his ego and desire to be smartest and right forced his hand... and this is kind of glossed over...

it would be nice if the nanites are reactivated by the asurans, weir turns into Picard-Locutus, atlantis is compromised, and McKay is faced, finally, with the realization that he is not always right... and he actually comes to terms with it...

but i think it would take something more than this happening to weir to really wake him up, maybe if his ego-ineptitude harms carter or his sister we'll see it happen...

and it has to happen otherwise his character will not have changed and that, literarily speaking, is not good...
You mean it didn't happen the time he blew up a freaking solar system and nearly ripped apart another universe?
No the nanites did not behave in Rodneys programme... when Weir left the jumper and he tried to de-activate them, it didn't work... so he had already lost control of her and she could have posed a huge threat to them if Oberoth had suceeded in reprogramming the nanites in her.. it looked like he was succeeding and obviously by now Weir could already be in the control of the Asurans... This is exactly what Sheppard was trying to prevent when he ordered Rodney not to re-activate the nanites.. and even Weir agreed with him
The problem is that she isn't really a threat because Sheppards problems was with having Atlantis being destroyed because the nanites contacted the Asurans.

IrishPisano
September 30th, 2007, 01:38 PM
as we have seen so many times before, Rodney is often in over his head and not always right... in a situation like this one, Rodney's inability to see his limitations should be taken into account, and he should've been ordered not to activate the nanites...

2. just bc sheppard has broken orders before does not mean he is not allowed to issue orders and expect them to be followed as he is the base military commander, and with weir ooc, commander period...

elbo
September 30th, 2007, 02:39 PM
Rodney was not able to guarantee that he could control the nanites... and he has been proved wrong before. In Trinity he insisted severel times that he could control the energy in the black hole, and look how that turned out.

Sorry, but 'guarantees' is just not a practical word in this situation. Is like asking Sheppard to offer 'guarantees' before engaging in any mission that he will bring anyone back in one piece or that he will not be capture and offer information to the enemy (how can Sheppard offer those type of guarantees?). There is the guarantee that came with the job and the position, head scientist. He made a over-confidence mistake in 'Trinity' indeed, still Rodney progressed after that and his decisions became more mature and the fact that he was not fired and still has the position, is a proof enough for his scientific expertise to be respected, especially for ppl (Sheppard) who don't posess extensive knowledge in that domain.



Sheppard told Rodney not to re-activate the nanites.. to me that was a clear order.

As i said before, there was more discussion than an order, a discussion ended with no conclusion. Sheppard seem to be open to this, IF (it's a big IF) Rodney is able to program the nanites to do only what they want. I repeat, this discussion is not ended with an order and if Rodney wasn't enirely sure he can program the nanites at this specific moment, later, in the dialog with Keller he is. What more proof do you want? The nanites are behaving as programmed: they repair Weir's damage and they don't contact the Asurans. I don't see when Rodney was wrong !?

About 'Lifeline':



No the nanites did not behave in Rodneys programme... when Weir left the jumper and he tried to de-activate them, it didn't work... so he had already lost control of her and she could have posed a huge threat to them if Oberoth had suceeded in reprogramming the nanites in her.. it looked like he was succeeding and obviously by now Weir could already be in the control of the Asurans... This is exactly what Sheppard was trying to prevent when he ordered Rodney not to re-activate the nanites.. and even Weir agreed with him



This has nothing to do with their programming. As suggested, either the human part of Weir exercise some kind of control (which is free will which no one can guarantee it), either the interference in the AR field are responsable for that. Weir seems in control very much to suggest that the programmed nanites are responsable for her behaviour. For example and comparison, a medic can save the life of a criminal, but you cannot hold that medic responsible for any murder that the criminal comits afterwards.

I should remaind you that the decision to take Weir in the mission and to activate the link with the collective, even if suggested by Rodney, belong to Sheppard and this is no part of any guarantee or brosure made by Rodney. If Weir would have stayed away of this mission nothing would have happened and i repeat, not the nanites are responsable for Weir free will decision in 'Lifeline'. Let's not suggest now that Rodney is also responsable for every action made by Weir's human part.





Not sure what you mean by dead in the vacuum.. the outcome could have been potentially much worse... it turned out that Weir did in fact help them.. but who knows what kind of a threat she will pose in the future.



I repeat, there 2 causes that made Weir fall in the replicators hands and none of them is Rodney responsability:

1. Sheppard decision to go for the heist and to include Weir in the mission.
2. Weir decision to leave the Jumper in order to buy some time for the team.

Weir didn't acted under the nanites control and if Rodney would have been able to shut down the nanites they would all have been captured, mission failed and Atlantis either destroyed or evacuated.





I don't see it as a given that all characters have to disoby orders but as you say if they do the circumstances have to be taken into acount for each instance. Rodneys actions may have been a touch reckless as he didnt really think about the outcome.. but his heart was in the right place.. he acted on his emotions to save a friend.

I partially agree, but was more than heart. Was a very heavy decision to make, because not saving a life when you have the knowledge and expertise to do it without puting others in danger (which is in my opinion this case), can be considerated murder in most of Earth's penal laws.

IrishPisano
September 30th, 2007, 03:45 PM
no, there are no guarantees in combat situations... but in a situation like you have with replicators, you NEED guarantees... or AT LEAST to have the benefits outweigh the risks... in this case, the risk of the Asurans finding out where atlantis is and that its crippled is not outweighed by saving weir's life...

Sicktem
September 30th, 2007, 05:05 PM
The nanites are behaving as programmed: they repair Weir's damage and they don't contact the Asurans. I don't see when Rodney was wrong !?

Have they now? Mckay was still working on reprogramming them to repair her damage instead of replacing damaged cells with nanites. So it begs the question; Did they really work perfectly, is she part replicator right now, or did they not shut down after they healed her, leaving open the possibility that something worse will happen?

I suspect he was on the right path, but wrong in saving her before he finished reprogramming them - Something bad is going to come out of it.

IrishPisano
September 30th, 2007, 08:49 PM
or we could put spoilers in spoiler tags

EdenSG
October 1st, 2007, 04:36 AM
I am going to trow my 2 cents in...

My thoughts about Rodney making the decision against Sheppard’s wishes and reactivating the nanites; this is one of those examples that no matter what decision is made, it is both right and wrong. Right because Rodney was thinking from the heart and just wanted to save Weir – wrong because he did fail to consider possible negative consequences and he failed to consider what Weir’s wishes would have been. I don’t think Sheppard was cold as he took into consideration not only the safety of the city but also what he thought Weir’s wishes would be.


Rodney is a problem solver – he saw a way to save Weir and thought with his heart. But he truly could not be 100% certain that the nanites would not take over at the time he first spoke with Sheppard. Sheppard was thinking in a broader view of what the risk would be to the city and from the viewpoint of what Weir would want. Hence his statement to Rodney, “I want to save Elizabeth as much as anyone, but she wouldn’t want us risking the city, not even for her.” I think he was making a decision from his POV as leader and from what he thought Elizabeth would want.

In all fairness to John, when Rodney was telling Sheppard he could reprogram the nanites to be harmless Sheppard said, “I am not having this conversation until you are sure.” This did not sound like he was saying an outright no to the nanites but that he wanted to be sure that they could be reprogrammed successfully and not be a threat to the city or to Weir. However when Rodney did activate them he had not accomplished that; when Keller reported Elizabeth was crashing he said, “I need more time.” He had not finished reprogramming the nanites. But because there wasn’t time he transferred the program knowing he had not finished it and without consulting John before he did - and he knew Sheppard would say no to using them to save Elizabeth since he had not finished the reprogramming. Rodney made a big, risky decision on his own, one that could affect both Weir and the city adversely. Was it hypocritical of John to be mad at Rodney for making that decision? I can see where one can make the case for that. John has disobeyed orders in the past, but on the other hand, perhaps he is learning from those ‘mistakes’ and now that he is in charge he realizes he cannot take those risks with so many other lives at stake. What’s that old saying? You can learn a lot walking in another person’s shoes.

So who was right and who was wrong? I think in some ways they were both right and wrong, because there is no straightforward answer. But they will both all have to deal with the consequences of the decision, and that is what matters now. This is why I think Rodney’s apology for going against Sheppard and Sheppard accepting it was a good human/friendship moment between the two of them. It was a show of respect and understanding between the two of them – yeah we disagreed, yeah I don’t think you should have done what you did but we can move beyond what just happened and together deal with the consequences. It shows a sense of maturity and growth in their friendship instead of the usual one upmanship rivalry they often display by one always having to be right and the other wrong.

belanna30
October 1st, 2007, 06:31 AM
OK, now, based on EdenSG's statements, even IF Rodney didn't get the programming 100% correct the first time around, what is there to say that he couldn't fix it later? He could reprogram Niam and all of the others.... Why couldn't he fix any flaw later? Then again, Rodney has tons of faith in computers and machines, that's how he is.

IrishPisano
October 1st, 2007, 06:45 AM
thinking from one's heart and acting as such does not necessarily make one right...

saving a person's life is almost always of the utmost importance... but NOT at the risk of having a situation develop such as the compromise of Atlantis, its personnel, and the gate to eart...

i still maintain that Rodney's actions were, regardless of their outcome, completely wrong under the situation... you have to remember that Atlantis is at war and decisions about life and death are judged differently during times of war...

elbo
October 1st, 2007, 08:12 AM
So, the nanites are not evil, they can be programmed and used like tools, even for medical purposes, without posing any kind of danger. If you don't understanf a scientific concept, this doesn't mean that everyone else is wrong and you are right.

Rodney original ideea was to programm the nanite in order to repair the damage and then to shut them off. There wasn't time for that so he do the next best thing under the circumstances, he program them to replace the original organic cells, completly safe for Weir and the city.

Major 'Lifeline' spoiler:



Why don't yoiu wait for 'Lifeline', if you didn't see it, before making this kind of judgements. Everything good that happen in this episode and the fact Atlantis make it saftely is because Rodney's decision. The fact that Weir ends up in enemy's hands is her own decision: her wish to activate the replicator base code that command them to attack the Wraith followed by Sheppard's aproval and also her decision to make contact with Oberoth and take control of the colective, in order to buy time for the team.



Not that i don't like apocalyptic speculations and assumptions, and the worst possible scenarios, but i'm still for the facts when making a judgement, so maby someone is so kind to indicate how this Rodney's decision was wrong regarding the effects, how in fact was a danger for the city? Did the nanite took control of Weir or tried to contact the Asurans (Sheppard ONLY concern)?

I don't like Weir character as much as the next guy, but i will never support a murder, when it can easily be avoided by knowledge. There is no place for prejudicies in SG series, the Earth sience and philosophy evolve above that. We have numerous cases in which the same type of decision were made, numerous situation in which the characters have been hosts to symbiots or other alien entities or subject to DNA mutations. No one came up with "Let's kill Sheppard" in "Conversion", even if they had hardly an ideea of what genetic process he was going through, even if he was a real danger for the city and if i'm not mistaken 2 soldiers died in the process of saving him. In this case the things were much simpler and Rodney cleary have/had the expertise to deal with microtechnology in order to make it perfectly safe for the pacient or the city. Please present facts to proove otherwise!

There is still the issue if Weir would have want this treatment or not. Well if the pacient is incapacitated or his free will compromised, somebody else should take this decion for her.

Trek_Girl42
October 1st, 2007, 08:12 AM
thinking from one's heart and acting as such does not necessarily make one right...

saving a person's life is almost always of the utmost importance... but NOT at the risk of having a situation develop such as the compromise of Atlantis, its personnel, and the gate to eart...

i still maintain that Rodney's actions were, regardless of their outcome, completely wrong under the situation... you have to remember that Atlantis is at war and decisions about life and death are judged differently during times of war...
I won't disagree with you there, however I think the point was that this shows how much Rodney has evolved since season one. Even with his extreme self-confidence, he would never have taken this action back then- remember that his sense of self-preservation is enormous. By taking the actions he did in Adrift, he's pretty much throwing that out the window. It's an important moment for his character. :mckay:

Cautious Explorer
October 1st, 2007, 08:17 AM
OK, now, based on EdenSG's statements, even IF Rodney didn't get the programming 100% correct the first time around, what is there to say that he couldn't fix it later? He could reprogram Niam and all of the others.... Why couldn't he fix any flaw later? Then again, Rodney has tons of faith in computers and machines, that's how he is.

I think the problem was that if Rodney made a miscalculation, it would only take an instant for the Asurans to be alerted to Atlantis' location. There wouldn't be any time to fix his mistake. If Rodney's wrong, they're all dead.

P-90_177
October 1st, 2007, 09:16 AM
additionally there may have been a risk of the nanites taking over weir and taking her on a killing rampage (ok probably not but you gotta take all possibilities into consideration when you take that sort of risk)

IrishPisano
October 1st, 2007, 09:53 AM
in wartime situations, which this was, you cannot wait for the results to determine if a choice was the right one or not...

EdenSG
October 1st, 2007, 11:10 AM
First let me say that I find the discussion on this thread very interesting and I think everyone has had good points to make.

Second, let me add some clarification to my first post.
In the end I don’t think Rodney should have reactivated the nanites. What I meant by neither being right or wrong is that there is both right and wrong in what they were thinking and feeling. But the question is, can you be right about certain things and still make a bad decision?

I have not seen Lifeline so I have no idea what the repercussions of activating the nanites are – but at the time Rodney reactivated them he had no idea either and neither did Sheppard. So I do think Rodney took a big risk activating them before he had finished the reprogramming. They were both making decisions based on what they saw their responsibilities were and their own feelings. Rodney made his decision from a very human POV, ‘I am a brilliant scientist. I can do this. I can’t be the one to let her die.’ Sheppard from a more militaristic POV ‘I am in charge now. It is my responsibility to protect Atlantis and everyone’s life. I can’t be the one to do this to Weir (turn on the nanites when he didn’t know what they would do to her). I can understand both POV and I can see “right” in both POV’s. This was a no win situation – the decision not to reactivate the nanites and Weir dies, or the decision to reactivate the nanites and risk the nanites taking over which puts Atlantis, the people on board and Weir at risk. At this point, now that the nanites have been reactivated, as far as I know or as far as Rodney or Sheppard knows it could go either way – they either remain dormant or they take over Weir or something in between.

Would it have been murder to let Weir die?
This brings up a very philosophical question and a subject that can be highly charged – How do does one decide to take one off life support and who gets to decide? And there are people who believe it is never “right” to remove life support.

As someone who has worked in critical care for over 12 years I have been frequently asked by family members whose loved ones are dying, “What should I do? Use artificial life support, choose risky, painful surgery, resuscitate or don’t resuscitate, what will happen if I do or what will happen if I don’t?” I usually tell them there is no wrong or right decision, that they can only make the best decision they feel they can based on what they know at the moment - because no one truly knows the full consequences of any decisions until much later. The advice we give is to think about what your loved one would have wanted, what their choice would be, because it is their life and since they cannot communicate what they would want for themselves you need to, by taking into account all that is going on, including your own feelings and their wishes.

This is an issue where I feel Sheppard was right, he not only took into account the welfare of Atlantis but also what Weir would want, and based on her statement to Teyla at the end, I think he was more on target. After all, she is the one who will ultimately live, die or pay the price for having the nanites reactivated.

Sorry if this was a bit long winded, but I think this is an interesting discussion. I just think that is it difficult to definitively say one was right or and the other is wrong - I think it comes down to what would have been the best decision for Atlantis and for Weir. And people may have different answers based upon whose POV they identify more with – Rodney’s or Sheppard’s.

belanna30
October 1st, 2007, 11:47 AM
I have to agree with Eden again. John definitely knew what Elizabeth would or would not want in this certain situation and Rodney probably should have listened a little more.

Now, any repercussions of this can not be judged on Lifeline. This was a risk and even IF something good does come from it (I haven't seen Lifeline, so I can't speculate and don't want to) hopefully can we agree that they (Rodney and Keller) took a roll of the dice with this one. It could turn out badly just as easily as it could have turned out well. (Rodney isn't infallible. Remember Return II? Reprogramming Niam didn't work there.)

It's all in the writer's hands at this point as to the outcome, but there were definitely a lot of ways that this could have turned bad for Atlantis and Weir.

And to clarify, I was trying to think of ways to get rid of Repli-Weir for just plain-jane Weir and bring her back as a more "main" and well "normal" character. :) (Because I am a Weir fan and would love to have her in more than four episodes. I know that doesn't apply to 100% of SGA fandom, so my apologies to those of you who are happy about the change. I mean NO disrespect.)

elbo
October 1st, 2007, 02:31 PM
There are several points made, that i want to comment:

1. 'the life support' issue. I think that this case is a little different regarding the effects: the nanites hadn't only the ability to mentain the patient in a comatose state but to actually 'restore' the pacient to her previous state. Do you sincerly belive that all the people will preffere death instead of having few microscopic machines, completly safe, in their brains, after suffering a severe/fatal injury?

2. Weir indeed said : "This was a bad decision" or "This was very risky", but not for a moment suggest the nanites to be shut down, which was possible at any moment, in 2 ways, one being a EM pulse. Sometime the desire to live goes beyond simple words that seem appropiate for a situation.

I think that whole this discussion is having place, because people do not trust Rodney that he can do what he says. Sheppard also don't trust him for that matter. There is no other explanation for it. You DO think that Rondney would lie, to save a friend, even if this puts in danger all the city, his friend or him included. Not even for a second stop to consider, that the heart played only one part of his conviction, and he actually knew what is doing and he can program some damn nanites to do a specific task. He is the one that change their entire base code.

We deal here with some kind of risk management. In fact the whole expedition is a bigger risk for a lot more of other people. Nobody put a nuke in the city yet, to eliminate any risk for replicators or Wraith finding their way to Earth. The difference here is that we deal with a risk that cannot be quantified: every people from few hundreds can present one day to a Wraith planet with the schematics for inter-galactic hyperdrive and the stelar location of Earth, from various human reasons, or somethingelse. You just blindly trust they won't, all few hundreds of them. Still one marine was kind enough to present a 'fake message' to Atlantis, in 'Vengance'. Well in 'Adrift', Rodney had the expertise to quantify that risk and deem it non-existent. Is like the Ancients puting failsafes in the replicator basecode, few command lines, which ELIMINATE the risk of hurting the Ancients. Why are we dancing around the ball but never touch it? The only risk that exist in this situation is the 'risk' that came from not understanding that the programming is based on a exact science, which is the mathematic, or distrust in Rodney's abilities.

Of course all this talk is more theoretic than practical. I'm not even considering the situation of Atlantis at that moment, in which we should have prayed for the replicators to came to us and give us the opportunity of another life boat, rather than 'safley' waiting to run out of air.

Freekzilla
October 1st, 2007, 02:39 PM
Heh! I've been wanting Sheppard to beat the living doo-doo out of Rodney for a long time now. McKay has no business being in charge of a hot-dog stand let alone anything as important as Atlantis. He's an annoying arrogant jerk. I wouldn't be suprized if Sheppard has had to work overtime to keep other people from shooting McKay.

I think that Rodney reactivated the nanites for many possible reasons. One, because subconsciencely he knows that he's not cut out to be a leader. Two, because he's afraid the person that would replace Weir wouldn't be as lenient. Three, because he's so arrogant and self indulgent he thought he was the only intelligent person around so he had to make the decision. Four, because he already had lost a friend (Beckett), one of his few friends, and didn't want to lose another.

It's probably a combination of all of them. Still though, he disobeyed orders. He deserves to get punished, and maybe even a little quiet time in the corner.

elbo
October 1st, 2007, 02:52 PM
Five, he was always hating Sheppard for his hair.

Klenotka
October 2nd, 2007, 06:15 AM
Heh! I've been wanting Sheppard to beat the living doo-doo out of Rodney for a long time now. McKay has no business being in charge of a hot-dog stand let alone anything as important as Atlantis. He's an annoying arrogant jerk. I wouldn't be suprized if Sheppard has had to work overtime to keep other people from shooting McKay.

I think that Rodney reactivated the nanites for many possible reasons. One, because subconsciencely he knows that he's not cut out to be a leader. Two, because he's afraid the person that would replace Weir wouldn't be as lenient. Three, because he's so arrogant and self indulgent he thought he was the only intelligent person around so he had to make the decision. Four, because he already had lost a friend (Beckett), one of his few friends, and didn't want to lose another.

It's probably a combination of all of them. Still though, he disobeyed orders. He deserves to get punished, and maybe even a little quiet time in the corner.


wth? Sheppard went for a walk, to be a hero and left whole Atlantis in hands of Rodney. Rodney, who made repairs, tried to reprogramme the nanites and actually was in command of whole city for some time...too much for one person, isn´t it? Why Sheppard didn´t send Lorne? Where was Lorne anyway? Lorne should have been there to "play hero" and let Sheppard in command. Well, Sheppard shouldn´t be in command of anything anyway. I know that lots of people haven´t seen Lifeline yet, but Sheppard was there so annoying that I wanted to kick him. He is acting like a jerk many times. "Come on McKay" "move McKay", "do a miracle in two seconds, McKay"...and so on.
I think Rodney made this decision how he felt to do. He is a scientist and Elizabeth´s friend first. And Sheppard told him "when you are sure they won´t send a message", and he was.
I mean, Ronon is acting like an idiot in most of S2, isn´t listening orders, Teyla and Rodney both argue with Sheppard. Sheppard has no authority, and now he wonders that he even can´t handle the situation. Part of the guilt should be at him, too. He left, during crisis, somewhere, where his presence wasn´t necessary and even didn´t say who should be in command!
So, as you see, I completely disagree.

Why do we solve this? Is anywhere here a section about how Sheppard disobeyed orders? (few times?) In "old times" of SG1 it was "IN" to disobey, now we have to talk and critizise everything and blame for most of the "bad" things McKay, which is also very "IN" now. :rolleyes: What do people want? On one hand they say that he is a selfish egoistic jerk, and when he makes something so obviously unselfish and from love to some person, they want him to be punished.
I simply don´t understand that. I really don´t.

elbo
October 2nd, 2007, 06:35 AM
Few very good points. I already stated somewhere that i think Sheppard is over-used. Nothing wrong with him, the poor guy, but the writers are exagerating with the classical uber-action-hero routine.

Unfortunately Lorne was on Apollo and they had to used what they had. Still i think that they should develop a mini-action-guy for situations like these. I guess that they will have a action-girl now, Sam. :)

I still belive Rodney did the right thing, i would have done the same thing, friend or not, not wanting a murder on my constience. Of course if this do not put the city in danger, which we have all ther reasons to take it as a fact.

Cautious Explorer
October 2nd, 2007, 06:51 AM
wth? Sheppard went for a walk, to be a hero and left whole Atlantis in hands of Rodney. Rodney, who made repairs, tried to reprogramme the nanites and actually was in command of whole city for some time...too much for one person, isn´t it?

When did Sheppard turn command over to Rodney? Sheppard was still in the city, just outside the shield. He was never out of radio contact. And I don't recall Rodney making any effort at all to make contact with Sheppard before jumping in to use the nanites on Weir. Even if Sheppard had turned control over to Rodney temporarily, he made his intentions regarding the nanites very clear. Rodney deliberately went against those wishes without any effort whatsoever to advise Sheppard of what he was going to do.



Why Sheppard didn´t send Lorne? Where was Lorne anyway? Lorne should have been there to "play hero" and let Sheppard in command.

Lorne was on the Apollo.



Well, Sheppard shouldn´t be in command of anything anyway. I know that lots of people haven´t seen Lifeline yet, but Sheppard was there so annoying that I wanted to kick him. No, a lot of people have not seen Lifeline, so it might be better not to reference it here or to at least put your thoughts in spoiler tags out of courtesy.



He is acting like a jerk many times. "Come on McKay" "move McKay", "make a miracle in two seconds, McKay"...and so on.
I think Rodney made this decision how he felt to do. He is a scientist and Elizabeth´s friend first. And Sheppard told him "when you are sure they won´t send a message", and he was.

Was he sure? He told Keller he wasn't ready yet.



I mean, Ronon is acting like idiot in most of S2, isn´t listening orders, Teyla and Rodney both argue with Sheppard. Sheppard has no authority, and now he wonders that he even can´t handle the situation. Part of the guilt should be at him, too. He left, during crisis, somewhere, where his presence wasn´t necessary and even didn´t say who should be in command!

Do you think Rodney has the right to expect Zelenka and the rest of his staff to follow his directions? Maybe they should all ignore Rodney and do as they please, since Rodney doesn't listen to anyone. Maybe everyone on Atlantis should do whatever they feel is best, regardless of any command structure.



So, as you see, I completely disagree.

Why do we solve this? Is anywhere here a section about how Sheppard disobeyed orders? (few times?) In "old times" of SG1 it was "IN" to disobey, now we have to talk and critizise everything and blame for most of the "bad" things McKay, is also very "IN" now. :rolleyes: What do people want? On one hand they say that he is a selfish egoistic jerk, and when he makes something so obviously unselfish and from love to some person, they want him to be punished.
I simply don´t understand that. I really don´t.

I'm willing to bet if you look at viewer comments regarding Hot Zone, you'll see more than a few comments criticizing Sheppard for disobeying Weir's orders. In this particular instance it was Rodney who ignored a direct order and endangered the city.

I don't disagree that Rodney's actions towards Weir were unselfish, but by ignoring Sheppard's order he endangered Teyla, Ronon, Zelenka and every other person in the city.

VSS
October 2nd, 2007, 07:15 AM
<snip>

Would it have been murder to let Weir die?
This brings up a very philosophical question and a subject that can be highly charged – How do does one decide to take one off life support and who gets to decide? And there are people who believe it is never “right” to remove life support.

As someone who has worked in critical care for over 12 years I have been frequently asked by family members whose loved ones are dying, “What should I do? Use artificial life support, choose risky, painful surgery, resuscitate or don’t resuscitate, what will happen if I do or what will happen if I don’t?” I usually tell them there is no wrong or right decision, that they can only make the best decision they feel they can based on what they know at the moment - because no one truly knows the full consequences of any decisions until much later. The advice we give is to think about what your loved one would have wanted, what their choice would be, because it is their life and since they cannot communicate what they would want for themselves you need to, by taking into account all that is going on, including your own feelings and their wishes.

This is an issue where I feel Sheppard was right, he not only took into account the welfare of Atlantis but also what Weir would want, and based on her statement to Teyla at the end, I think he was more on target. After all, she is the one who will ultimately live, die or pay the price for having the nanites reactivated.

<snip>

I agree with your point completely. While Rodney says the nanites are under control, when Elizabeth awoke, she clearly was unhappy with what had been done. We are not, in fact, sure that the nanites are "completely safe". And, even if they are, it is not up to others to impose their definition of what constitutes life, or health, on another person. This is a widely-accepted tenet of medical ethics. I have seen people die for want of a simple blood transfusion because of their religious beliefs. I don't see how not wanting reactivated nanites is somehow less logical than that, from Elizabeth's point of view. It really doesn't matter what anyone else thinks.

As a person in health care, EdenSG, you know that many times family and friends will want everything to be done, no matter how slim the chances or horrible the outcome. They often do not do what the patient would want, or they don't do it until the medical staff sits down and goes over the situation repetitively. Because they are thinking about their own loss, which is a natural thing to do, but which doesn't help the patient. I think that's what McKay was doing, while Shep truly was thinking about what Elizabeth would want. And he would probably know. In Entity Jack and Janet Frasier both knew Sam had a living will. People in dangerous situations usually do. It is logical that Weir would have shared that information with Shep.

Klenotka
October 2nd, 2007, 09:46 AM
When did Sheppard turn command over to Rodney? Sheppard was still in the city, just outside the shield. He was never out of radio contact. And I don't recall Rodney making any effort at all to make contact with Sheppard before jumping in to use the nanites on Weir. Even if Sheppard had turned control over to Rodney temporarily, he made his intentions regarding the nanites very clear. Rodney deliberately went against those wishes without any effort whatsoever to advise Sheppard of what he was going to do.

The point is, that he didn´t turn the command. He left, told Rodney unclear instruction like "if you are sure" and left. And he told him to be sure about the nanintes not contacting the others Replicators, not that he shouldn´t activate them at all. He left without leaving instructions. What if he would die outside? Then the city would be in hands of Rodney and bunch of scientists. As a temporal commander, he had no place outside, he should have stayed inside. He probably wouldn´t like it but it is the way it is. Leave the city in such state was very irresponsible from him.




Lorne was on the Apollo.

I didn´t know that. But I am sure there are many other soldiers in Atlantis who could have done it.


No, a lot of people have not seen Lifeline, so it might be better not to reference it here or to at least put your thoughts in spoiler tags out of courtesy.

Sorry, I put this wrong. I meant that Sheppard was acting like a jerk even before. And this his sometimes blind faith to McKay ("McKay, you have twenty seconds before we die unless you fix it") coliding with obvious distrust when McKay fails, is really annoying.



Was he sure? He told Keller he wasn't ready yet.

I think he told her that he isn´t sure about switching off the nanites again after they would be done with healing of Elizabeth´s brain. He said that he is sure that they won´t contact other Replicators.



Do you think Rodney has the right to expect Zelenka and the rest of his staff to follow his directions? Maybe they should all ignore Rodney and do as they please, since Rodney doesn't listen to anyone. Maybe everyone on Atlantis should do whatever they feel is best, regardless of any command structure.

And aren´t they doing this already? In Atlantis is such havoc in command that I wouldn´t be suprised if Teyla would be in command of the city :rolleyes: It´s obvious that nobody is listening. You can see how Elizabeth didn´t have respect from the beginning. And when she did later, she was very influenced by Sheppard who has looked into her eyes and she went and did exactly what he wanted. You can see it in Sheppard´s team, where they are arguing instead of running (Vengeance is a good example). So I think some structure isn´t really important.



I'm willing to bet if you look at viewer comments regarding Hot Zone, you'll see more than a few comments criticizing Sheppard for disobeying Weir's orders. In this particular instance it was Rodney who ignored a direct order and endangered the city.

Well, yeah, but it was when? Two years ago?


I don't disagree that Rodney's actions towards Weir were unselfish, but by ignoring Sheppard's order he endangered Teyla, Ronon, Zelenka and every other person in the city.

...and if he weren´t unselfish and decided not to help Elizabeth, people would call him selfish and arrogant jerk and that Elizabeth´s death is his fault (if she would die). So no real option here.

People critisize his decision, but how do we know how we would react? He isn´t a soldier, he reacted as normal human being worried for a friend. That´s all, and I would take that this way.
And punish him? When they didn´t do it for 10 years in SG1 and 3 in SGA, why start now? And when, technically, it was very confused situation, without clear orders and under pressure.

Mitchell82
October 2nd, 2007, 10:29 AM
Of course Sheppard was already suited up to go out into space at the time, so not a lot he could do right then. Great timing.

I'm not sure the apology should have been accepted so easily either. Sure, in the middle of an emergency situation is not the time to dwell on grudges, but I think there should be some consequences. It would have made more sense for Sheppard to tell McKay they'd deal with it later.

To paraphrase Han Solo "Easy?! You call that easy?!" It wasnt easy nor 100% accepted. He was still very cold and frustrated which IMO was realistic.

Turbo
October 3rd, 2007, 02:08 PM
Ok, here's one thing I don't get about this whole debate - why are people blaming Rodney? Keller was the one who had the idea to use the nanites, and Keller was the one who insisted to Rodney that they had to use the nanites immediately, even though Weir would be part Replicator.

If it's anyone's "fault", it's Keller's, for going to such an extreme to save Elizabeth. And I can't blame her for that. She's a doctor; she's going to do whatever it takes to save a life, and with Rodney assuring her that the nanites wouldn't harm Elizabeth or contact the Replicators, she was justified in trying to save Elizabeth.

Cautious Explorer
October 3rd, 2007, 02:19 PM
Ok, here's one thing I don't get about this whole debate - why are people blaming Rodney? Keller was the one who had the idea to use the nanites, and Keller was the one who insisted to Rodney that they had to use the nanites immediately, even though Weir would be part Replicator.

If it's anyone's "fault", it's Keller's, for going to such an extreme to save Elizabeth. And I can't blame her for that. She's a doctor; she's going to do whatever it takes to save a life, and with Rodney assuring her that the nanites wouldn't harm Elizabeth or contact the Replicators, she was justified in trying to save Elizabeth.

Because Keller couldn't have done anything on her own. She suggested the nanites to Rodney, she encouraged him to activate them, but she wasn't capable of doing it herself.

Rodney is responsible for his own actions. Keller didn't have the authority to authorize the use of the nanites. So the blame is going to fall on Rodney. But I do agree that Keller should be held accountable as well.

technoextreme
October 3rd, 2007, 05:07 PM
Ok, here's one thing I don't get about this whole debate - why are people blaming Rodney? Keller was the one who had the idea to use the nanites, and Keller was the one who insisted to Rodney that they had to use the nanites immediately, even though Weir would be part Replicator.

Because McKay had the option to say no??? What would have Keller done??

IrishPisano
October 3rd, 2007, 06:04 PM
Because McKay had the option to say no??? What would have Keller done??

agreed

you are responsible for your own actions... as the nuremberg trials showed us...