Ancients help the asgard? (spoilers!!!)

[matta]

Seeming the asgards and the ancients were part of the 4 great races wouldnt you think the ancients would help the asgard out by helping to reverse the side effects of cloning? I know the ancients have strict rules about not interfering in "lowers" plain of existance but c'mon they were part of an allience i think throwing a bit of knowledge the asgards way wouldnt harm things to much

thoughts anyone?

[g.o.d]

they're the Ancients. They don't care about us. The Asgard were there allies and friends. At least they should have helped them to ascend in th Unending

[Forseti (a.k.a. Thor's lawyer)]

I got the impression that the "Alliance of the Four Races" is nothing more than a relic from a time long gone. The remaining Ancients ascended, the Nox seem to have lost interest in the rest of the galaxy (they weren't even present to witness the Asgard's final act) and the Furlings off course disappeared in thin air. In those 10 years of SG-1 there hasn't been any sign of recent interaction between the four races, so lets face facts: the alliance is dead in the water.

Secondly the ascended have made it very clear that it is their highest rule not to interfere with the lower plains, whatever the cost may be. It's not that they don't care, they just fear it's a slippery slope that will lead to self corruption.

Personally though I think the concept of ascention has been cheapened over the years. I thought it to be more a "state of mind" thing (releasing your burden) than a physical thing (to quote Oma: "when the mind is enlighted, the spirit is free and the body matters not"). But hey, it wouldn't be the first SG-inconsistency.

On the other side, ascending the Asgard now would make it substantially harder to resurect them in a future movie/storyline (if it ever were to be made).

[g.o.d]

I got the impression that the "Alliance of the Four Races" is nothing more than a relic from a time long gone. The remaining Ancients ascended, the Nox seem to have lost interest in the rest of the galaxy (they weren't even present to witness the Asgard's final act) and the Furlings off course disappeared in thin air. In those 10 years of SG-1 there hasn't been any sign of recent interaction between the four races, so lets face facts: the alliance is dead in the water.

yep, it's only a relic. We don't know what they were really doing. Did they share technology, knowledge, or were they only a some kind of discussion party? But they were allies and friends, I suppose.

Secondly the ascended have made it very clear that it is their highest rule not to interfere with the lower plains, whatever the cost may be. It's not that they don't care, they just fear it's a slippery slope that will lead to self corruption.

why would they become corrupted? Was Oma corrupted when she was helping "lowers" to ascend?No, she wasn't. She was a good person who made one terrible mistake and paid for it. Was Chaya corrupted when she was protecting the people she knew? No, she wasn't. I understand the Others are afraid that they can eventually become like the Ori. But, this rule is absurd. Helping a good people (or your allies) to ascend doesn't make you suddenly corrupted.

Personally though I think the concept of ascention has been cheapened over the years. I thought it to be more a "state of mind" thing (releasing your burden) than a physical thing (to quote Oma: "when the mind is enlighted, the spirit is free and the body matters not"). But hey, it wouldn't be the first SG-inconsistency.

I personally think the ascension is a question of evolution.

[Forseti (a.k.a. Thor's lawyer)]

why would they become corrupted? Was Oma corrupted when she was helping "lowers" to ascend?No, she wasn't. She was a good person who made one terrible mistake and paid for it. Was Chaya corrupted when she was protecting the people she knew? No, she wasn't. I understand the Others are afraid that they can eventually become like the Ori. But, this rule is absurd. Helping a good people (or your allies) to ascend doesn't make you suddenly corrupted.

OK, you've got a point there. But maybe it's not only fear for self corruption, but also (as I explained in the Chaya thread) fear for the (bad) consequences of interference. Oma concerned herself with the individual and created a monster based on what she thought was "good". Remember: helping someone ascend means giving him/her incredible power/understanding of things. What criteria do you use to decide whether someone is worthy of that power? As Anubis told Daniel: "If you deserve to be here, you should be able to get here on your own." Seems indeed the only way to prove yourself.
Then, if it is already hard to determine if one is worthy, consider a whole race. How do you even define who is "good" or "worthy of ascention"? For example, what would you do with disgraced asgard scientist Loki ?
Lastly, there is the problem of consistent policy. If the Asgard should be helped because they are "good" and were allies at a certain point in time, why shouldn't you help other "good" people?

I personally think the ascension is a question of evolution.

I'd say there that's one of two ways. Clearly Daniel, Jack ("Abyss"), the Abydonians, the people from "Epiphany" weren't higher on the evolutionary ladder when they ascended (or got the offer). However they did manage to release their mental burden (with the exception of Jack).

[g.o.d]

OK, you've got point there. But maybe it's not only fear for self corruption, but also (as I explained in the Chaya thread) fear for the (bad) consequences of interference. Oma concerned herself with the individual and created a monster based on what she thought was "good". Remember: helping someone ascend means giving him/her incredible power/understanding of things. What criteria do you use to decide whether someone is worthy of that power? As Anubis told Daniel: "If you deserve to be here, you should be able to get here on your own." Seems indeed the only way to prove yourself.

Ascension doesn't make all-knowing. It's a beginning of another journey. I still think the Asgard are worthy of it. The Asgard were protecting humans in MW (protected planet treaty with goa'uld.

Then, if it is already hard to determine if one is worthy, consider a whole race. How do you even define who is "good" or "worthy of ascention"? For example, what would you do with disgraced asgard scientist Loki ?
Lastly, there is the problem of consistent policy. If the Asgard should be helped because they are "good" and were allies at a certain point in time, why shouldn't you help other "good" people?

I'm talking about the Asgard not about "other" people or "lowers". Loki was desperate, he was trying to save his race. He didn't kill a single human.

as Oma said:"The success or failure of your deeds does not add up to the sum of your life. Your spirit cannot be weighed. Judge yourself by the intention of your actions and by the strength of which you faced the challenges that have stood in your way."

As I said he didn't kill any human.

[Liam Kincaid]

they're the Ancients. They don't care about us. The Asgard were there allies and friends. At least they should have helped them to ascend in th Unending

I thought I read somewhere that the Asgard lost the ability to ascend because of the cloning process.

[g.o.d]

I thought I read somewhere that the Asgard lost the ability to ascend because of the cloning process.

it was said in the Unending. But, Abydonians were evolutionary too primitive for ascension and they ascended with Oma's help(Oma ascended them)

[Forseti (a.k.a. Thor's lawyer)]

As I said he didn't kill any human.

Well, mini-Jack was lucky enough to get treatment from Thor, but I'm not sure if he or any of the other clones who actually died would agree with that statement.

Victory at all costs ?!

[g.o.d]

Well, mini-Jack was lucky enough to get treatment from Thor, but I'm not sure if he or any of the other clones who actually died would agree with that statement.

Victory at all costs ?!

other clones? He cloned only Jack. Other people were returned home

[Forseti (a.k.a. Thor's lawyer)]

other clones? He cloned only Jack. Other people were returned home

Remember all the other abductees Daniel interviewed in the episode, Loki cloned them too.

JACKSON: "We had the abductees DNA that Teal'c and I interviewed scanned for the same abnormalities as ... duplicate O'Neill. As far as we can tell, none of them are clones."

HAMMOND: "Which means?"

CARTER: "Well, in all likelihood, the Asgard responsible, took the original people
and replaced them with duplicates so as not to arouse suspicion."

JACKSON: "They studied the original for a period of time and then switched them back."

At the end of the episode Carter's suspicions are confirmed:

THOR: "Again, I apologize for any inconvenience Loki may have caused."

YOUNG O'NEILL: "Yeah, that's what I'd call it."

THOR: "Unfortunately, the eventual genetic breakdown of the clone is not my doing, but rather the result of Loki's inept methods." (Loki seems none to pleased with that statement.)

LOKI: "There was no need for the clones to survive."

So yes, the originals were returned, but the clones eventually died.

[Liam Kincaid]

it was said in the Unending. But, Abydonians were evolutionary too primitive for ascension and they ascended with Oma's help(Oma ascended them)

There is a difference. The brains of Abydonians and humans are not advanced enough yet to cause their bodies to transform to energy without help. But the cloned bodies of the Asgard, if I understand it correctly, are physically incapable of being trasformed into energy, with or without help.

[General David Niemi]

they're the Ancients. They don't care about us. The Asgard were there allies and friends. At least they should have helped them to ascend in th Unending

Perhaps that's what happened. Yes! They did that because they...

Spoiler:

killed themselves so they could ascend

I thought I read somewhere that the Asgard lost the ability to ascend because of the cloning process.

Lies! Maybe.

it was said in the Unending. But, Abydonians were evolutionary too primitive for ascension and they ascended with Oma's help(Oma ascended them)

So the Asgard could have done it too!

There is a difference. The brains of Abydonians and humans are not advanced enough yet to cause their bodies to transform to energy without help. But the cloned bodies of the Asgard, if I understand it correctly, are physically incapable of being trasformed into energy, with or without help.

They ascended. End of story. (I just need a happy end to this.)

[MartianManhunter]

Seeming the asgards and the ancients were part of the 4 great races wouldnt you think the ancients would help the asgard out by helping to reverse the side effects of cloning? I know the ancients have strict rules about not interfering in "lowers" plain of existance but c'mon they were part of an allience i think throwing a bit of knowledge the asgards way wouldnt harm things to much

thoughts anyone?

That would be nice, but i highly doubt it. The only way that i see the Asgard returning is if we go back in time or enter an alternate reality.

But thats only my opinion and ill always hope that theyll find a way to bring them back.

[wise one]

well once we have learned of the cure from like a AU we could if getting a opputunity to give them the cure..


like while going back in time why dont we give the asgard the cure