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View Full Version : Are the Asurans now more Advanced then the Ancients were??



Lord batchi ball
July 26th, 2007, 03:32 PM
I would have to say that they are, in the sense that they made the death ray with the stargate attached to it. But then they will never reach a higher plane so is that the altiment advancement?

Jarnin
July 26th, 2007, 03:52 PM
I would have to say that they are, in the sense that they made the death ray with the stargate attached to it. But then they will never reach a higher plane so is that the altiment advancement?
An emulation cannot surpass that which it is emulating. The Asurans are nothing more than a copy of the Lanteans. That includes the Lanteans' technology, culture and so on.

Apparently the Asurans are stuck at the moment. They want to ascend in order to equal their creators, but they don't know how. That would indicate that they're still not equivalent to the Lanteans, even though they want to be.

JSPuddlejumper
July 26th, 2007, 04:17 PM
Asurans can make anything the Ancients ever did, but much faster.

So they are more powerful than the Ancients.

They cannot yet Ascend.

If the Ori did not have Ascended beings backing them up, the Asurans would be a far more formidable enemy.


The Atlantis team is going be in huge trouble, even if they get the latest Asgard technology. They are vastly out numbered. They will have to come up with ingenious ways to win.

Lord batchi ball
July 26th, 2007, 04:29 PM
An emulation cannot surpass that which it is emulating. The Asurans are nothing more than a copy of the Lanteans. That includes the Lanteans' technology, culture and so on.

Apparently the Asurans are stuck at the moment. They want to ascend in order to equal their creators, but they don't know how. That would indicate that they're still not equivalent to the Lanteans, even though they want to be.

They have been created in the image of the Lanteans but they are just a Lifeform that is made of multiple blocks, they can reason, feel and have emotions and most important they are free thinking.

Jarnin
July 26th, 2007, 04:32 PM
Asurans can make anything the Ancients ever did, but much faster.
I suppose you have intimate knowledge of how fast Lanteans could create things compared to the Asurans? No?


So they are more powerful than the Ancients.
Based on your erroneous statement above?


They cannot yet Ascend.
Yet? I think the fundamental question is can they ascend at all?


If the Ori did not have Ascended beings backing them up, the Asurans would be a far more formidable enemy.
I think this falls into the 'no duh' category.


The Atlantis team is going be in huge trouble, even if they get the latest Asgard technology.
Considering we haven't seen Asgard technology versus Lantean technology, I'd say you're predictions are a bit premature.


They are vastly out numbered.
The Asurans haven't committed to an all-out attack, so their numbers aren't a big deal at this point.


They will have to come up with ingenious ways to win.
Isn't this how it always is?

JSPuddlejumper
July 26th, 2007, 04:36 PM
They are REPLICATORS, nobody can built ships faster. They already proved this, in a couple of months they had 30+ ships ready!

Even the Ori could not hope to match that.


Machines are superior at building machines.


They are thinking and learning machines...


They are thus a more powerful enemy than the Ancients! Only saving grace: They cannot built ships as fast as the ML replicators (who could build a ship in a few seconds!), but the Asurans are more advanced having all the Ancient knowledge.

Niam was pretty sure he can Ascend, just needed a changing of the base code. Now weather Obleroth (sp?) or the Council wants that is another question.

There were some spoilers for Season 4: 7 Hives and the Daedalus and the Apollo taking on the Replicators. I believe it was John saying if that is all the Hives they could get. Implying they were facing a massive Asuran fleet.

Jarnin
July 26th, 2007, 04:46 PM
They have been created in the image of the Lanteans but they are just a Lifeform that is made of multiple blocks, they can reason, feel and have emotions and most important they are free thinking.
First, they weren't created in the image of the Lanteans, they emulated the Lanteans.
Second, they're an emulated lifeform, not a genuine lifeform.
Third, their reasoning is emulated.
Fourth, their feelings are emulated.
Fifth, their emotions are emulated.
Sixth, their will is emulated.

Ltcolshepjumper
July 26th, 2007, 04:51 PM
Well, I wouldn't put it more advanced, but rather utilize all of their knowledge and technology. But to put it simply, yes, you could consider the Asurans more advanced than the Ancients. Although the Ancients already had their own version of the Asuran satellite (Redemption) and they definitely could have built a mega city if they had the time and resources. More advanced, not really. Smarter and more practical, definitely.

Jarnin
July 26th, 2007, 04:54 PM
They are REPLICATORS, nobody can built ships faster.
They're not replicators, they're Asurans. There is a difference.


They already proved this, in a couple of months they had 30+ ships ready!
That is far from proven. We know the Lanteans had the capability to fabricate technology quickly, not to mention that I have no idea where you're pulling that "30+ ships" figure from.


Even the Ori could not hope to match that.
Your assumption is based on nothing.


Machines are superior at building machines.
Again, your assumptions are faulty.


They are thinking and learning machines...
Which has no bearing on this discussion.


They are thus a more powerful enemy than the Ancients!
I'm sure the exclamation point in that statement makes it true.


Only saving grace: They cannot built ships as fast as the ML replicators (who could build a ship in a few seconds!), but the Asurans are more advanced having all the Ancient knowledge.
So you admit there is a difference between Asurans and Replicators then?


Niam was pretty sure he can Ascend, just needed a changing of the base code.
He wasn't pretty sure he could ascend; he wanted to ascend. Big difference. He believed that getting rid of their aggresive sub-routines would allow him and the others to attain ascension, but there was no proof either way.


Now weather Obleroth (sp?) or the Council wants that is another question.
Weather = whether.
Obleroth = Oberoth.

Apparently Oberoth and the others still feel they haven't accomplished everything up to ascension.


There were some spoilers for Season 4: 7 Hives and the Daedalus and the Apollo taking on the Replicators. I believe it was John saying if that is all the Hives they could get. Implying they were facing a massive Asuran fleet.
Cool, can't wait.

2ndgenerationalteran
July 26th, 2007, 05:15 PM
They emulate the Ancients, but built a city more grand than anything we have evidence the Ancients made. They can repair highly damaged things remarkably fast, probably meaning they can do the same with constructing ships. They seemed to have met the Ancient's level of technology before they left, if not surpassed it, just because you try to be like a race doesnt mean your stuck at that technological level forever or until the race you emulate comes back and proceeds onwards.

Lord batchi ball
July 26th, 2007, 05:18 PM
First, they weren't created in the image of the Lanteans, they emulated the Lanteans.
Second, they're an emulated lifeform, not a genuine lifeform.
Third, their reasoning is emulated.
Fourth, their feelings are emulated.
Fifth, their emotions are emulated.
Sixth, their will is emulated.

What is alife form has been a major question in many Scifi shows
In the episode entity a computer based life infects Carter they said it was a life form, and in Glactica the machines eventually became some what human and in the process became more advaced.
What I am trying to prove that they in time can become more advanced because they indepently grow.
And the Asurans never have to sleep so they could work forever

JSPuddlejumper
July 26th, 2007, 06:57 PM
They ARE replicators, build from many trillions of nanites.

They have bettered the Ancients technologically:

Far grander than the Ancients in their construction (of their home world), according to the Asurans. To reach the level of the Ancients, Niam said they must Ascend.

Another example of Asuran technological superiority:

Asurans satellite cannot be destroyed, immensely powerful and a sustained beam. Compare that the Ancient satellite: takes a lot of time to power up and was easily destroyed.

Ancients vs Asurans round 2: couple of 100 Asurans easily defeated about 100 Ancients of the Tria. The Ancients seems quite hapless and inept at war, possibly even worse than the Asgard.

Ex: Commander of Tria did not raise shields when the Asuran approached Atlantis, she ASSUMED too much. She should have someone ready to the launch the drones ASAP as well.

The Earthlings now with Asgard tech would have likely destroyed the Ancients of old.


P.S: I do not see why you are having trouble understanding that machines can build other machines much faster. It is very simple logic and deduction. It is observed in the real world as well.

2ndgenerationalteran
July 26th, 2007, 07:21 PM
I agree with JSpuddlejumper but the satelite only had an impregnable shield because it never would have ran out of energy until the gate shut down cutting off energy it took from the beam. We dont know if the Lagrange point defense satelites had a shield, it was possible they did but it was damaged beyond a timely repair or they just couldnt give enough energy to power the beam and the shield at the same time.

But the Asurans have slightly more impressive technology than the Ancients had.

jds1982
July 26th, 2007, 08:43 PM
I have no idea where you're pulling that "30+ ships" figure from.

There were what, five targets in First Strike? And I believe there were about six ships per target, at least in the photo we saw, so about 30 ships.

JSPuddlejumper
July 27th, 2007, 03:21 AM
Assuming that the Ancient satellite had shields before (solid assumption), it would have no where near the shield strength of the Asuran one (with their nearly unlimited ZPMs). Asuran one was clearly so much better. It is better than anything built before, it was INDESTRUCTIBLE.


Just looked at the tape:

There were 6 targets and each target had about 5-7 ships each. They started building 2 months ago.

That was from the footage taken 3 weeks ago by the Daedalus! They could have added a few more ships I would think, considering their building speed.

So 30 ships is a very low ball number. It could be as high as 60 ships.

Assuming they were building no more ships, at most they would have 42 ships.

They could have had 60 ships for all we know if they started building more ships in those 3 weeks since the photos were taken. Another indication why in season 4 that JS was disappointed that only 7 Hives join them.

Even though we destroyed all their construction facilities, shipyards, materials, the Asurans build ultra fast. They could have a fleet of at least 20 ships facing against 7 Hives+Daedalus and Apollo.

Another example of Asuran building speed: Atlantis main tower got destroyed in a huge explosion (the bomb set off by the Atlantis team), Asurans built it all back in less than 2 hours! Humans would have needed many weeks to repair it!


So the Atlantis team is fighting an enemy that is technologically superior to the Ancients, even if only slightly and can built much faster than the Ancients. The Milky Way replicators very nearly destroyed the Asgard and the humans. Even though the Asgard eventually had planetary wide anti replicator weapons (somethings the Ancients clearly did not have).

If the Atlantis team takes on the replicators by brute force instead of ingenuity, they will lose. They need the planetary wide anti replicator weapons to really have any effect. The Asurans may also decide to spread to other planets, knowing that Earth has AR weapons and launch an attack on Earth. They could also adopt to the frequency of the AR weapons.

All in all, they have found an enemy that makes the Wraith look like toddlers. Only the Ori, because of Ascended help may be a bigger threat.

Lord batchi ball
July 27th, 2007, 05:35 AM
The Asurans are different from the human looking replacators in one big way.
you can not really kill the Asurans, if they get shot with a AR they are just remade on their home world. So even if we can destroy all of them maybe they have a back up program that just makes them all again. And I hope that their communcation data dosn't look like TV fuzz.

Rudy Pena
July 27th, 2007, 11:35 AM
The Asurans are different from the human looking replacators in one big way.
you can not really kill the Asurans, if they get shot with a AR they are just remade on their home world. So even if we can destroy all of them maybe they have a back up program that just makes them all again. And I hope that their communcation data dosn't look like TV fuzz.
lol, This is SGA, not BSG.;)

wise one
July 27th, 2007, 11:53 AM
i would say they must have progressed a little more since 10,000 years have gone by

but maybe they dont know all the stuff the ancients know..... like biuld a time machine

Jyral Nadreth
July 27th, 2007, 11:56 AM
i would say they must have progressed a little more since 10,000 years have gone by

but maybe they dont know all the stuff the ancients know..... like biuld a time machine

I completely disagree-they went backwards in technology
Just kidding, your right, definatly correct from my point of view

2ndgenerationalteran
July 27th, 2007, 01:38 PM
They did not copy the ancients perfectly, they coppied their style. they kept the style as they advanced. The purpose of the new controls on their PJ i honestly don't know but if they are the same then it shows they were starting be become a little more original with their design. And quite frankly i dont remember the Ancients building anything near this http://www.stargatecaps.com/sga/s3/305/html/progeny069.html

JSPuddlejumper
July 27th, 2007, 01:42 PM
Asurans are technologically better than the Ancients.

Thus it makes them the most dangerous enemy in universe (without the Ori, only because they get Ascended help).

Rudy Pena
July 27th, 2007, 01:45 PM
Asurans are technologically better than the Ancients.

Thus it makes them the most dangerous enemy in universe (without the Ori, only because they get Ascended help).
Are you forgeting the Ori are ascended?

JSPuddlejumper
July 27th, 2007, 02:01 PM
Obviously I meant to say the Ori followers.

If those idiots weren't getting Ascended help, the Asurans would easily be #1.

Jyral Nadreth
July 27th, 2007, 02:03 PM
That we know of??????

Rudy Pena
July 27th, 2007, 02:13 PM
Obviously I meant to say the Ori followers.

If those idiots weren't getting Ascended help, the Asurans would easily be #1.
oh, ok

Lord batchi ball
July 27th, 2007, 02:28 PM
Can anyone fly a Asuran made vessel ?

JSPuddlejumper
July 27th, 2007, 02:29 PM
Ori are Ascended, there can be noting more powerful in the SG universe. We would have gotten a hint by now if something that is more powerful than Ascended beings existed.

Jyral Nadreth
July 27th, 2007, 02:30 PM
Probably-the ones they were building in First Strike were made like every other starship rather than being made up of nanite( They learned their anti-replicator weapon lessons well)

Lord batchi ball
July 27th, 2007, 02:35 PM
Probably-the ones they were building in First Strike were made like every other starship rather than being made up of nanite( They learned their anti-replicator weapon lessons well)

No I ment that they are not Ancients so it won't work on the ATH gene (is that right)
Or do they have DNA ?

Jyral Nadreth
July 27th, 2007, 02:38 PM
It is ATA (Ancient Technology Activation Gene) -I would have thought that they would have disabled it-Major Carter was trying to disable an Ori ships Prior control thingy. It would probably be controlled by their subspace network or the good old fashioned way of do it yourself BUTTONS!!!!!!!

I think ATH was the Ancient technology hormone therapy Beckett gave out so the Ancient Tech can be used

Rudy Pena
July 27th, 2007, 02:44 PM
It is ATA (Ancient Technology Activation Gene) -I would have thought that they would have disabled it-Major Carter was trying to disable an Ori ships Prior control thingy. It would probably be controlled by their subspace network or the good old fashioned way of do it yourself BUTTONS!!!!!!!

I think ATH was the Ancient technology hormone therapy Beckett gave out so the Ancient Tech can be used
Dont you mean Col. Carter?

Lord batchi ball
July 27th, 2007, 02:47 PM
Yes thats it, but if you disabled it and used the Buttons it would be slow,
And the subspace network thing might be able to hack into any ship and take it over.
And the Asurans would kind of become one with aircraft that would make it faster.

Jyral Nadreth
July 27th, 2007, 02:49 PM
You can do a similar thing with humans-use a neural link

s09119
July 27th, 2007, 05:27 PM
I'd say they only equal the Lanteans:

- Asuras is impressive, yes, but we've never seen an actual Lantean world. I mean one that billions of Ancients lived in. All we've seen is Atlantis, because the Wraith destroyed all the other Lantean worlds. For all we know, Asuras is just like others in the Ancient Empire.
- Asuran technology looks to be exactly the same as that of the Ancients. Just because they had a fancier satelite than the ONE we've seen doesn't mean they were more advanced. And the Lanteans were fighting the Wraith, there's a good chance the La Grange satellite was specifically designed to take out hive ships. Makes sense, seeing as they didn't use them on anything else.
- We have ZERO evidence that the Asurans have advanced any farther than the Ancients did. Everything they have is an exact copy of Lantean tech.

JSPuddlejumper
July 28th, 2007, 04:45 AM
Their tech must have advanced slightly in 10000 years. Their tech was already at near a pinnacle, so the advancement would be very slight. Nonetheless, you expect some advancement.


Niam: "We built a city FAR GRANDER then they EVER achieved".


The Replicator planet is one giant city, the entire planet.

Lord batchi ball
July 28th, 2007, 07:41 AM
Is it one giant city? thats cool if it is
Then where did they build the ships? to me the land mass looked very green like a forest or somthing, They had to know that the dedlious was monitering them the Asgard can moniter hyperspace so can Asurans detect it if so the next time might be trick.

Ripple in Space
July 28th, 2007, 09:27 AM
I don't understand some of your reasoning..... The Asurans build ships conventionally, albeit surely with more advanced techniques, but they don't "replicate" their ships, this has been specifically stated. They aren't more advanced than the Ancients, but in a slugfest they could take down Asgard tech.

Asgard tech may be top notch, eventually surpassing the Ori, but Lantean tech is the top of the SG-verse totem pole. Using uncoventional methods though, Asgard tech could prevail, using PWARWs, but Lantean-grade drones overpower any conventional shields, so it would be a tough battle.

Lord batchi ball
July 28th, 2007, 01:19 PM
I am talking about how they figured out that the Asurans were building ships and that the Dedalis flew by the planet regulary, they had to know that the dedalis was up there.

2ndgenerationalteran
July 28th, 2007, 03:15 PM
Probably our proximity sensors ring when we have some cruisers flying light years away from us.

Jimbo-DR
July 29th, 2007, 08:14 AM
Ori are Ascended, there can be noting more powerful in the SG universe. We would have gotten a hint by now if something that is more powerful than Ascended beings existed.

And yet it took about 5 shots from the Asgard's most recent development to wipe out an Ori ship that you guys claim was "built with ascended knowledge".

Ascension DOES NOT MAKE YOU ALL KNOWING. It gives you a conduit with which to gather and understand information in a different and deeper level than you can while living a corporeal existence. It simply provides the opportunity to learn and understand more, but it doesn't turn you into a God.

Jyral Nadreth
July 29th, 2007, 08:16 AM
Only when you become like Q(Star Trek) do you become all knowing-that is on a much higher plain than the Ancients/Ori are on

Rudy Pena
July 29th, 2007, 12:47 PM
Only when you become like Q(Star Trek) do you become all knowing-that is on a much higher plain than the Ancients/Ori are on
And all powerful.

2ndgenerationalteran
July 29th, 2007, 12:56 PM
And yet it took about 5 shots from the Asgard's most recent development to wipe out an Ori ship that you guys claim was "built with ascended knowledge".


Actually we don't know how many shots were fired, but if you count at the rate of their fire i would say around 9-10 shots. Either way Ascended beings are clever enough to make a shield that would withstand that many hits with ease. And after rewatching the episode we never had a confirmed kill on that second ori ship.

Lord batchi ball
August 1st, 2007, 12:13 PM
Ok I just watched the return part 1and 2 and now I am wondering how did the Asurans get into Atlantis, the Ancients raised their shields just before the bombs hit and why did they not return fire, And the Asuran ship was still intact.

2ndgenerationalteran
August 2nd, 2007, 12:51 AM
But Atlantis has a slow rising shield, i dont think they had enough time to fully close it.

wise one
August 2nd, 2007, 04:37 AM
But Atlantis has a slow rising shield, i dont think they had enough time to fully close it.

i agree cos the asurans knows where the atlantis shield generator is and knew exactly where to fire like when a asuran had his hand in sheppard after (in his mind) escaped the asurans and went back to atlantis and then a senario of 15+ wraith ships attacking atlantis, and then rodney crying saying wraith are shooting they know where to hit us......

so i think the asurans did that and this allowed the shield to come offline or something allowing them to somehow get onboard atlantis, maybe they have a puddle jumper on there ship.......

rlr149
August 2nd, 2007, 05:36 AM
Only when you become like Q(Star Trek) do you become all knowing-that is on a much higher plain than the Ancients/Ori are on

Q wasn't all knowing, i would say he was the same as the ascended in SG but with no "messing with lower planes" rules

ascendedancient42
August 2nd, 2007, 06:27 AM
Q wasn't all knowing, i would say he was the same as the ascended in SG but with no "messing with lower planes" rules

Actually, the Q continuum did have a no messing with mortals rule. Q just tended to ignore it for the sake of fun.

He also did occasionally have actual business with mortals, like the first and last episode of next generation.

Hrm...I'd like to see one of the ascended playing with people like a child plays with bugs. That'd be interesting, but given what we've already seen, never gonna happen.

rlr149
August 2nd, 2007, 05:29 PM
Actually, the Q continuum did have a no messing with mortals rule. Q just tended to ignore it for the sake of fun.

He also did occasionally have actual business with mortals, like the first and last episode of next generation.

Hrm...I'd like to see one of the ascended playing with people like a child plays with bugs. That'd be interesting, but given what we've already seen, never gonna happen.

i never mentioned the continuum ;) you are right though, forgot about them tbh:S

i meant on a "level of understanding" and power(speculation on SG ascended power, never seen one really unleash it), though he defiantly demonstrates the power more(affecting time, changing reality, etc) however their business was putting us on trial, affectively not abiding by their own rules of "not messing" .................. morally different to SG ascendeds due to the Q being in "judgement" despite their rule