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Morrolan
July 18th, 2007, 07:56 AM
Maybe this has been brought up before, but I cannot find an answer. Where did the name Tau'ri come from? Is it just a creation of the writers, or does it have factual basis in Egyptian culture? I really like the name much more than terrans or humans. Maybe we should adopt it as our name when we do finally meet our universal counterparts.

s09119
July 18th, 2007, 08:02 AM
It's Goa'uld for "First World" (Earth) and "People of the First World" (Humans of Earth).

Some think the "Tau" part is a nod to Warhammer 40k and their race called the Tau... Or vice versa.

Morrolan
July 18th, 2007, 08:20 AM
It really is such a fitting name. :)

g.o.d
July 18th, 2007, 08:47 AM
Terra sound much better than Tau´ri

Morrolan
July 18th, 2007, 10:40 AM
Terra sound much better than Tau´ri

To each his own. I prefer Tau'ri.

Londo Molari
July 18th, 2007, 11:34 AM
Its a modification of the word Terran.

rlr149
July 18th, 2007, 01:47 PM
Terra sound much better than Tau´ri

terra or terrans? plus it might be a touch confusing to off worlders if misheard

:daniel:..... we're the terra....

local.......the TERROR!!, kill them..........kill them all
:(

i like terrans or tau'ri:)

Jarnin
July 18th, 2007, 10:56 PM
Its a modification of the word Terran.
No it isn't. It's Tauri, shortened form of Centauri, which would be the constellation Sol (our sun) is part of.

Master_Templar
July 19th, 2007, 12:45 AM
Tau (for both 40k and Stargate) could also originally come from Dune. Can't remember exactly what it meant though, something about origin.

Stargate SG1 came before the introduction of the Tau race to Warhammer 40k anywho.

TheBigFlush
July 19th, 2007, 08:11 AM
I think it means "Peace be the Journey".

tainor
July 19th, 2007, 09:59 AM
tau'ri litrally means "first born" in Go'uld language because, all the humans in the Milky Way Galaxy were transported by the Go'uld from Earth to other planets. This begs to ask, when the Ancient(Alterans) fleet to Pegasus Galaxy they seeded life back in the Milky Way Galaxy but how come there was life only on Earth and not on the other suitable planets.? It had to be spread by the Go'ulds to all other planets?

Morrolan
July 19th, 2007, 10:32 AM
tau'ri litrally means "first born" in Go'uld language because, all the humans in the Milky Way Galaxy were transported by the Go'uld from Earth to other planets. This begs to ask, when the Ancient(Alterans) fleet to Pegasus Galaxy they seeded life back in the Milky Way Galaxy but how come there was life only on Earth and not on the other suitable planets.? It had to be spread by the Go'ulds to all other planets?

Perhaps they seeded Earth and then left.

ManiacMike
July 19th, 2007, 12:52 PM
Earth being the "first" planet was an old tale told by the people under the rule of the Goa'uld.

Earth was simply a vacation planet for Ra. Earth used to have Naq. but he mined it all out, so the system lords didn't have any need for the planet.

s09119
July 19th, 2007, 03:34 PM
Earth being the "first" planet was an old tale told by the people under the rule of the Goa'uld.

Earth was simply a vacation planet for Ra. Earth used to have Naq. but he mined it all out, so the system lords didn't have any need for the planet.

Where in the world did you get that? It's canonical fact that Earth IS the "first world" of the Milky Way. They've said it throughout the entire series.

Atlanis
July 19th, 2007, 04:36 PM
Tau'ri is a federation world in star trek mentioned in the season one tng ep "The last outpost"

Master_Templar
July 19th, 2007, 11:51 PM
Earth never had Naquadah. It was just the centre of the Empire. If there were Naquadah, we'd know about it, as there will always be trace amount.

Though, strategically for Ra, Earth is an excellent home base. Strategically, we are out of the way (in comparison to the galaxy) and capturing Earth means all you gain is a planet with few useful minerals (for the Goa'uld).

g.o.d
July 20th, 2007, 04:21 AM
Terra as a planet
Terrans as a people

s09119
July 20th, 2007, 09:34 AM
I would've liked to see us get a cooler name in Atlantis... As it is it goes like:

:sheppard:: Hey there! How are ya?

Alien: We are the (Alien Name)s. Who are you?

:sheppard:: We're humans from the planet Earth in another galaxy, but right now we're living in Atlantis.

Alien: So are you Earthans or Atlanteans?

:sheppard:: Neither. What, you thought the writers would let us have a cool name? (rolls eyes) NAAT!

Wraith_Boy
July 20th, 2007, 02:38 PM
I would've liked to see us get a cooler name in Atlantis... As it is it goes like:

:sheppard:: Hey there! How are ya?

Alien: We are the (Alien Name)s. Who are you?

:sheppard:: We're humans from the planet Earth in another galaxy, but right now we're living in Atlantis.

Alien: So are you Earthans or Atlanteans?

:sheppard:: Neither. What, you thought the writers would let us have a cool name? (rolls eyes) NAAT!

Earthans!!! Don't you mean 'Earthlings'?

Which is the perfect name to describe us as we are from the planet Earth. The other appropriate name is 'Human'. They simply screwed that bit up in SG because nearly every race is human themselves whose ancestors were slaved out from Earth many millenia ago by Ra.

s09119
July 20th, 2007, 05:11 PM
Earthans!!! Don't you mean 'Earthlings'?

Which is the perfect name to describe us as we are from the planet Earth. The other appropriate name is 'Human'. They simply screwed that bit up in SG because nearly every race is human themselves whose ancestors were slaved out from Earth many millenia ago by Ra.

I said "Earthan" because most races are named in the fashion of: (Planet name)an. So "people from Earth" would be "Earthans" to most cultures we've met.

But in the Pegasus galaxy, NO ONE has any idea what Earth is, so Earthan/Terran/Earthling/Tau'ri (ok that might work) would be useless.

ATLANTIS, however, is known. But we can't call ourselves Lanteans: those were the Ancients. The only times we've ever really been named were in "The Storm"/"The Eye" and "No Man's Land". In both cases, we are called "Atlanteans".

So, although it makes no sense considering Atlanteans and Lanteans are used interchangably to describe the Ancients, we're Atlanteans :D.

tainor
July 22nd, 2007, 12:28 PM
Well I still like the name Tau'ri sounds cool IMO better then Earthling (very simular to Furlings which we never sow thank you TPTB again) so I'll stick with Tau'ri until or if they came up with cooler name in time.

Seastallion
July 23rd, 2007, 11:36 AM
Earth never had Naquadah. It was just the centre of the Empire. If there were Naquadah, we'd know about it, as there will always be trace amount.

Though, strategically for Ra, Earth is an excellent home base. Strategically, we are out of the way (in comparison to the galaxy) and capturing Earth means all you gain is a planet with few useful minerals (for the Goa'uld).

You are correct that the Earth never had any Naquadah. However, as far as I know it was never the 'center' of any empire per se. Earth was the first world upon which the Ancients settled after having arrived in the Milky Way galaxy at least 50 Million years ago. (Hmmm... maybe THEY wiped out the Dinosaurs..!! :P ) They named Earth, 'Avalon' and began rebuilding the civilization they had left behind in the Ori home galaxy. Earth was the home base of the lost city of Atlantis about 3 to 5 Million years ago, until it left for the planet of Lantea in the Pegasus galaxy. As far as it is known, a few remained at the Antartic oupost after Atlantis left and eventually died out. At some point during or after this, the Earth was reseeded so that human life would re-evolve.

It was ONLY because of the presence of humans (and later, possibly, the discovery of 'Ancient' artifacts) that the Goa'uld had any desire to be on Earth. Essentially they found humans to be a MUCH more comfortable host than the Unas they had been using since before they left their own home world. Humans were also more intelligent and versatile as slaves (although not stronger) than the Unas. Upon finding humans, the Goa'uld as a race divided the planet among themselves to rule over the various cultures. Eventually, a power struggle ensued that necessitated the dispersal of the other Goa'uld Lords to worlds of their own. By that time they had already begun transplanting humans from Earth to mining colonies and such other similiar places. In time the only Goa'uld Lord still on Earth was Ra who had supposedly found it in the first place. Of course humans eventually rebelled and Ra left, seemingly without much fight. The most likely reason being, that Earth simply had NO resources the Goa'uld desired other than humans which they had already seeded the stars with millions of them. By transplanting humans, the Earth lost its one unique treasure that the Goa'uld wanted.

As to the Earth humans being the only 'descendents' of the Ancients to evolve in this galaxy that all other human-form races came from, that would seem to be false. There are several other VERY close to human races that did NOT originate from Earth. The Aschen, the race of the bounty hunter Aris Boch, and others would seem to indicate that other worlds independently evolved near-human beings as well. So in that, Earth would seem not to have been unique as originally thought. That being aside from the worlds in Pegasus that were seeded with human life.

As to the word, "Tau'ri", while it is an obvious reference to Earth (and the humans inhabiting it), the origin of the word itself is unclear. The word 'Tauri' was used long before Stargate used it, with it being a dominant symbol for 'Earth', and 'The Bull', one of the most ancient signs of the zodiac. The origins of the Taurus constellation go so far back into antiquity that its origin is unknown. In the case of Stargate, knowing that the Taurus was the chief symbol for the Earth element of the constellations of the zodiac, the writers may have simply decided to use it as one more link with the use of constellations within the realm of stargate.

Blackwater
July 23rd, 2007, 05:45 PM
Earthers!

Blackwater

Morrolan
July 23rd, 2007, 07:29 PM
You are correct that the Earth never had any Naquadah. However, as far as I know it was never the 'center' of any empire per se. Earth was the first world upon which the Ancients settled after having arrived in the Milky Way galaxy at least 50 Million years ago. (Hmmm... maybe THEY wiped out the Dinosaurs..!! :P ) They named Earth, 'Avalon' and began rebuilding the civilization they had left behind in the Ori home galaxy. Earth was the home base of the lost city of Atlantis about 3 to 5 Million years ago, until it left for the planet of Lantea in the Pegasus galaxy. As far as it is known, a few remained at the Antartic oupost after Atlantis left and eventually died out. At some point during or after this, the Earth was reseeded so that human life would re-evolve.

It was ONLY because of the presence of humans (and later, possibly, the discovery of 'Ancient' artifacts) that the Goa'uld had any desire to be on Earth. Essentially they found humans to be a MUCH more comfortable host than the Unas they had been using since before they left they're own home world. Humans were also more intelligent and versatile as slaves (although not stronger) than the Unas. Upon finding humans, the Goa'uld as a race divided the planet among themselves to rule over the various cultures. Eventually, a power struggle ensued that necessitated the dispersal of the other Goa'uld Lords to worlds of their own. By that time they had already begun transplanting humans from Earth to mining colonies and such other similiar places. In time the only Goa'uld Lord still on Earth was Ra who had supposedly found it in the first place. Of course humans eventually rebelled and Ra left, seemingly without much fight. The most likely reason being, that Earth simply had NO resources the Goa'uld desired other than humans which they had already seeded the stars with millions of them. By transplanting humans, the Earth lost its one unique treasure that the Goa'uld wanted.

As to the Earth humans being the only 'descendents' of the Ancients to evolve in this galaxy that all other human-form races came from, that would seem to be false. There are several other VERY close to human races that did NOT originate from Earth. The Aschen, the race of the bounty hunter Aris Boch, and others would seem to indicate that other worlds independently evolved near-human beings as well. So in that, Earth would seem not to have been unique as originally thought. That being aside from the worlds in Pegasus that were seeded with human life.

As to the word, "Tau'ri", while it is an obvious reference to Earth (and the humans inhabiting it), the origin of the word itself is unclear. The word 'Tauri' was used long before Stargate used it, with it being a dominant symbol for 'Earth', and 'The Bull', one of the most ancient signs of the zodiac. The origins of the Taurus constellation go so far back into antiquity that its origin is unknown. In the case of Stargate, knowing that the Taurus was the chief symbol for the Earth element of the constellations of the zodiac, the writers may have simply decided to use it as one more link with the use of constellations within the realm of stargate.

Very informative. I'd like to know more.

Jarnin
July 26th, 2007, 03:49 PM
You are correct that the Earth never had any Naquadah.
Reason being: Naquadah is a transuranic element. Any element with a mass higher than Iron can only be produced by a supernovae when a supermassive star goes ka-blooey (or in a supercollider here on Earth).
Once you get to elements higher than Uranium on the periodic table, their half-lives dwindle quickly down to fractions of a second, until you get atomic numbers upwards of 114-120ish. At that point, it's believed that elements become stable again, and this is where elementary Naquadah would live (hypothetically speaking of course).

In order for Naquadah to be produced naturally, you'd need a super massive star to go supernova, and apparently none have done so around Earth in the past 4.5 billion years or so.


However, as far as I know it was never the 'center' of any empire per se.
The Roman Empire, the British Empire... I jest of course :)


Earth was the first world upon which the Ancients settled after having arrived in the Milky Way galaxy at least 50 Million years ago.
The first? That's complete conjecture based only on circumstantial evidence at best.
I'm guessing your saying this because the original DHD found in Antarctica was claimed to be one of the oldest in the gate network. That doesn't necessarily mean they settled here, only that the gate they put here was one of the first.


(Hmmm... maybe THEY wiped out the Dinosaurs..!! :P )
They were ~15 million years too late to take credit for that. Not to mention, using an asteroid to wipe out the Dinosaurs would be pretty lame for a intergalactic species.


They named Earth, 'Avalon' and began rebuilding the civilization they had left behind in the Ori home galaxy.
Again, conjecture. The first mention of "Avalon" in season 9 by Daniel seems more likely to be the Altera name for the Milky Way Galaxy than for Earth. Of course further mentions of "Avalon" are inconsistent, which is probably why you're saying Earth = Avalon.


Earth was the home base of the lost city of Atlantis about 3 to 5 Million years ago, until it left for the planet of Lantea in the Pegasus galaxy.
Not to pick nits, but Atlantis wasn't 'the lost city' until about 10,000 years ago.


As far as it is known, a few remained at the Antartic oupost after Atlantis left and eventually died out.
Ayiana was the only Lantean seen in the outpost as Atlantis left Earth. No other remains were found, so it's very unlikely that anybody beside Ayiana remained behind (and we still don't know why she remained here, though I'm sure everybody has a guess).


At some point during or after this, the Earth was reseeded so that human life would re-evolve.
Again, based on no evidence and actually contrary to the fossil record in real life.


It was ONLY because of the presence of humans (and later, possibly, the discovery of 'Ancient' artifacts) that the Goa'uld had any desire to be on Earth.
More conjecture...What ancient (Altera or Lantean) artifacts did the Goa'uld discover here? As far as I can remember, NONE. There are no Alteran ruins on Earth (the Glastonbury Caves are Lantean, built by Merlin within the last ~1500 years).


Essentially they found humans to be a MUCH more comfortable host than the Unas they had been using since before they left their own home world.
Comfortable? That had nothing to do with it at all. For all intents and purposes, Unas are superior hosts to humans in almost every way.
The reason why the Goa'uld decided to switch to human hosts is because their technology (which is based on Altera technology) works better with a human host because ancients are, for all intents and purposes, human.


Humans were also more intelligent and versatile as slaves (although not stronger) than the Unas.
I would argue that Unas and humans are equally intelligent and versatile. The only reason why you're concluding that humans are more intelligent is due to the fact that most Unas we;ve seen live a paleolithic lifestyle.

Chaka, in the episode The First Ones lives a paleolithic lifestyle, but when we see him in Enemy Mine he has tailored clothing and at least a rudimentary understanding of the English language.

Considering that we haven't seen any Unas since season 6, it's impossible to say Unas are less intelligent or less versatile than humans (we need more data).


Upon finding humans, the Goa'uld as a race divided the planet among themselves to rule over the various cultures.
Ra ruled earth, and those who were subjugated by Ra (as Supreme System Lord) were allowed to come to Earth and take humans from various indigenous cultures.

This is why Apophis, who was allied with Ra against Sokar had human hosts, slaves and Jaffa, while Sokar, who was not allied with Ra, didn't get human hosts and slaves until he came through the Antartica gate around 1000 CE.


Eventually, a power struggle ensued that necessitated the dispersal of the other Goa'uld Lords to worlds of their own.
Conjecture.


In time the only Goa'uld Lord still on Earth was Ra who had supposedly found it in the first place.
Ra was the only Goa'uld System Lord in control of Earth, and he didn't supposedly find Earth, he did find Earth.


Of course humans eventually rebelled and Ra left, seemingly without much fight. The most likely reason being, that Earth simply had NO resources the Goa'uld desired other than humans which they had already seeded the stars with millions of them. By transplanting humans, the Earth lost its one unique treasure that the Goa'uld wanted.
Agreed.


As to the Earth humans being the only 'descendents' of the Ancients to evolve in this galaxy that all other human-form races came from, that would seem to be false. There are several other VERY close to human races that did NOT originate from Earth. The Aschen, the race of the bounty hunter Aris Boch, and others would seem to indicate that other worlds independently evolved near-human beings as well. So in that, Earth would seem not to have been unique as originally thought.
Any alien species that looks even remotely humanoid are related to the ancients. As Carter pointed out in Frozen, the odds of a totally alien life form evolving to look like us are astronomical.


That being aside from the worlds in Pegasus that were seeded with human life.
Seeded with protohuman life from Earth. There is no chance you can have humans in Pegasus and the Milky Way, at the same stage of evolution, unless the Lanteans brought them along for the ride.


As to the word, "Tau'ri", while it is an obvious reference to Earth (and the humans inhabiting it), the origin of the word itself is unclear. The word 'Tauri' was used long before Stargate used it, with it being a dominant symbol for 'Earth', and 'The Bull', one of the most ancient signs of the zodiac. The origins of the Taurus constellation go so far back into antiquity that its origin is unknown. In the case of Stargate, knowing that the Taurus was the chief symbol for the Earth element of the constellations of the zodiac, the writers may have simply decided to use it as one more link with the use of constellations within the realm of stargate.
You should really cite your references (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Taurus_%28constellation%29).

Seastallion
July 30th, 2007, 11:18 AM
Reason being: Naquadah is a transuranic element. Any element with a mass higher than Iron can only be produced by a supernovae when a supermassive star goes ka-blooey (or in a supercollider here on Earth).
Once you get to elements higher than Uranium on the periodic table, their half-lives dwindle quickly down to fractions of a second, until you get atomic numbers upwards of 114-120ish. At that point, it's believed that elements become stable again, and this is where elementary Naquadah would live (hypothetically speaking of course).

In order for Naquadah to be produced naturally, you'd need a super massive star to go supernova, and apparently none have done so around Earth in the past 4.5 billion years or so.

I think someone thought that Naquada might be element 115 or something, I heard somewhere. Maybe. Those higher elements would no doubt have some sort of interesting uses in real life.


The Roman Empire, the British Empire... I jest of course :)

LOL


The first? That's complete conjecture based only on circumstantial evidence at best.
I'm guessing your saying this because the original DHD found in Antarctica was claimed to be one of the oldest in the gate network. That doesn't necessarily mean they settled here, only that the gate they put here was one of the first.

Yet, you forget that it has been cited on Stargate Atlantis by the Ancients themselves, that the Earth WAS in fact their original homeworld, before Lantea in the Pegasus galaxy. If I also recall correctly, the dialing crystal necessary to connect a stargate from the Pegasus galaxy would ONLY dial to Earth specifically. I admit I could be wrong about that, but that seemed to be the case from what I remember of the top of my head.


They were ~15 million years too late to take credit for that. Not to mention, using an asteroid to wipe out the Dinosaurs would be pretty lame for a intergalactic species.

Yeah it was ~65 million years ago wasn't it? In any case it was a joke. :p


Again, conjecture. The first mention of "Avalon" in season 9 by Daniel seems more likely to be the Altera name for the Milky Way Galaxy than for Earth. Of course further mentions of "Avalon" are inconsistent, which is probably why you're saying Earth = Avalon.

I suppose you could play around with what Daniel was saying, but taken as it was said, would lead one to believe that they were indeed talking about Earth itself, and NOT another planet or the galaxy in general. He (Daniel) said they came to a 'great belt of stars' (a galaxy), and then came upon a world (specific place), and colonized it, naming it Avalon. One could continue to nitpick that it isn't definitive, and that is all well and good, but until there is evidence suggesting otherwise, there is in fact no reason to suggest that it WASN'T Earth that was being referred to.


Not to pick nits, but Atlantis wasn't 'the lost city' until about 10,000 years ago.

Agreed. :p But the point about that was, that the Ancients had indeed been living on Earth.


Ayiana was the only Lantean seen in the outpost as Atlantis left Earth. No other remains were found, so it's very unlikely that anybody beside Ayiana remained behind (and we still don't know why she remained here, though I'm sure everybody has a guess).

As to wether there was anyone other than Aiyana left in Antartica, that too is up for debate. Aiyana (besides some Jaffa) was the only one found SO FAR. Also, Aiyana may have been a rather special case for all we know. It is clear that she had been attempting to ascend when she was caught in the ice. As far as we know, the Ancients didn't necessarly all just happen to have extra-normal abilities beyond great intelligence. Usually, it was those getting close to ascension that began to exhibit those qualities. Aiyana was ill, that is certain, and it would seem very likely that her goal had been to use ascension to escape it. Then she got stuck in the ice.

The fact is, there COULD be an entire continent of Ancient ruins under the ice of Antartica. There is a plate of ice a mile thick covering much of the continent. It could very well be that there are many cities and such hidden beneath. One of MY personal nitpicks (sort of covered in 'The Lost City') was that the writers forgot that Antartica wasn't actually AT the South Pole 3-5 million years ago, and was in fact much further north, and much warmer. As I recall there are petrified trees, and evidence of free flowing rivers in Antartica even now from as a short time ago as 10,000 years ago. On the other hand, there are a lot of little flaws here and there, and one just has to get over it. :p Again, the point being that there may have been many thousands of people left on Earth for all we know when Atlantis left. We only saw Aiyana on the SG:A pilot (because we were already familiar with her), but we can't assume there wasn't ANYONE else. You see, assumptions can run both ways, and most of us are guilty of it at some point.


Again, based on no evidence and actually contrary to the fossil record in real life.

*shrugs*


More conjecture...What ancient (Altera or Lantean) artifacts did the Goa'uld discover here? As far as I can remember, NONE. There are no Alteran ruins on Earth (the Glastonbury Caves are Lantean, built by Merlin within the last ~1500 years).

Well, for one (possibly) was the Tel'chak device. As far as we know it had not been offworld until the Tau'ri found it. That being aside from the Antartic gate that was CERTAINLY there before the Goa'uld arrived, along with the Ancient outpost.


Comfortable? That had nothing to do with it at all. For all intents and purposes, Unas are superior hosts to humans in almost every way.
The reason why the Goa'uld decided to switch to human hosts is because their technology (which is based on Altera technology) works better with a human host because ancients are, for all intents and purposes, human.

Not so. Hathor herself told Daniel that humans were particularly enjoyable for them as hosts. Also, they had been using Unas to work with leftover Ancient technology for many years before they even found humans. On the other hand, the Goa'uld are hedonists, and have made no secret of their enjoying the sensuality of the human host. Very likely much nicer than the rough skinned Unas.


I would argue that Unas and humans are equally intelligent and versatile. The only reason why you're concluding that humans are more intelligent is due to the fact that most Unas we;ve seen live a paleolithic lifestyle.

Chaka, in the episode The First Ones lives a paleolithic lifestyle, but when we see him in Enemy Mine he has tailored clothing and at least a rudimentary understanding of the English language.

Considering that we haven't seen any Unas since season 6, it's impossible to say Unas are less intelligent or less versatile than humans (we need more data).

Unas are much stronger, that is certainly true. That we have yet to encounter an un-Goa'ulded Unas that wasn't practically living a stone-age life style, isn't to say they don't have the potential for creating a more technologically advanced society, they just haven't so far as we know, not even on their original homeworld, where the odds for it would've been best, if only for the amount of time available to have done so.

It is true that Chaka was wearing tailored clothes, but NOT because of the skill of the Unas in tool making. It was because they were living among humans with greater tool making skills, and there was trade between them following peace (albeit a fragile one apparently), which is of course a hallmark of Unas diplomacy (as seen in 'Enemy Mine'). My point only being that humans aren't necessarily 'better' than Unas, only that humans have strengths that Unas don't, and vice-versa.


Ra ruled earth, and those who were subjugated by Ra (as Supreme System Lord) were allowed to come to Earth and take humans from various indigenous cultures.

This is why Apophis, who was allied with Ra against Sokar had human hosts, slaves and Jaffa, while Sokar, who was not allied with Ra, didn't get human hosts and slaves until he came through the Antartica gate around 1000 CE.

I agree that Ra was indeed the Supreme System Lord, but that didn't stop the Goa'uld from fighting with each other, or even Ra himself, long before Jack and Daniel killed him. If you recall, Apophis was fighting Ra for control of a planet long before the stargate had been opened on Earth, and it was a major turning point for Teal'c in his beliefs about the divinity of the Goa'uld. Ra was the chief System Lord only in so far as he was the leader of the combined forces of the System Lords (as Yu, and then Ba'al were later). That isn't to say I disagree with all of your above assessment, as there is likely a good deal of truth to it. Keep in mind though, that there WAS a power struggle on Earth before Ra abandoned it. That was why Hathor, Osiris, and Isis were placed in stasis, and Seth hid amongst the humans. It was because of an internal struggle for power on Earth against Ra. It was likely after (or during?) this, that many of the other Goa'uld (such as Yu, Nirti, Cronis, and others) started to leave Earth building the centers for their domains elsewhere.


Conjecture.

Not so much as you claim, as I explained above.



Ra was the only Goa'uld System Lord in control of Earth, and he didn't supposedly find Earth, he did find Earth.

I was allowing for flexability. Certainly, as far as it is known, that Ra was the first to come to Earth and establish an order. That isn't to say that he hadn't had a scout (servant?) find it first and report back, before he came himself. There was never that much detail given. Nor is it really necessary in the long run.


Agreed.

Thanks! :p


Any alien species that looks even remotely humanoid are related to the ancients. As Carter pointed out in Frozen, the odds of a totally alien life form evolving to look like us are astronomical.

Probably, but not necessarily. As far as I know, neither the Asgard or the Nox had any biological relationship to the Ancients, and yet both look remarkably humanoid.


Seeded with protohuman life from Earth. There is no chance you can have humans in Pegasus and the Milky Way, at the same stage of evolution, unless the Lanteans brought them along for the ride.

Possibly, but not necessarily, as we don't know the exact methodology the Ancients used. It is clear that they had done some experimentation with societal development. So who knows?


You should really cite your references (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Taurus_%28constellation%29).

Oh well... I did look in several place. Wiki isn't the only place with that info. I saw much of the info repeated at different places.

Jarnin
July 30th, 2007, 03:11 PM
I think someone thought that Naquada might be element 115 or something, I heard somewhere. Maybe. Those higher elements would no doubt have some sort of interesting uses in real life.
There hasn't been any mention of the atomic number in the series, but the now defunct SG-1 role-playing game said it was #244 or so. Of course that's so far off it's laughable.


Yet, you forget that it has been cited on Stargate Atlantis by the Ancients themselves, that the Earth WAS in fact their original homeworld, before Lantea in the Pegasus galaxy.
If I'm recalling your reference, you took that statement out of context. Which episode was it exactly?


If I also recall correctly, the dialing crystal necessary to connect a stargate from the Pegasus galaxy would ONLY dial to Earth specifically. I admit I could be wrong about that, but that seemed to be the case from what I remember of the top of my head.
It was set up that way so they could return to Earth after they lost the war with the Wraith.


I suppose you could play around with what Daniel was saying, but taken as it was said, would lead one to believe that they were indeed talking about Earth itself, and NOT another planet or the galaxy in general.
Again, you're taking statements out of context to support your ideas.


He (Daniel) said they came to a 'great belt of stars' (a galaxy), and then came upon a world (specific place), and colonized it, naming it Avalon.
Why don't you reference the material instead of summarizing it?


DANIEL: Once upon a time, there was a race of people that went on a great journey through space, across the universe. They were called the Altera. After much time…and I think this means thousands of years, they found a great belt of stars...

DANIEL: It says that the Alterans named their new home "Avalon," and that they built many Astria Porta.
Great belt of Stars... They named their new home 'Avalon'...

Earth is not a great belt of stars, it's a planet. Their new home was a galaxy, not a single world, otherwise why even mention that they built many 'astria porta'?

See, you're taking dialog out of context to support your own ideas, and then you don't even reference the material so nobody can check your citations.


One could continue to nitpick that it isn't definitive, and that is all well and good, but until there is evidence suggesting otherwise, there is in fact no reason to suggest that it WASN'T Earth that was being referred to.
There are LOTS of reasons to suggest it wasn't Earth, you're just ignoring those reason because you WANT it to be Earth.


Agreed. :p But the point about that was, that the Ancients had indeed been living on Earth.
But we don't know how long they lived here. There are no Alteran ruins on Earth, and the only Lantean structures found was the Antarctica Outpost.
As far as we know, they stopped by here, messed with the DNA of life on Earth, then left.


As to wether there was anyone other than Aiyana left in Antartica, that too is up for debate. Aiyana (besides some Jaffa) was the only one found SO FAR.
And until they find other remains, there's no reason to think more will be found unless the writers give us a reason.


Also, Aiyana may have been a rather special case for all we know. It is clear that she had been attempting to ascend when she was caught in the ice.
She was on 'the path to ascension' defined by the events in the Atlantis episode Epiphany. There's no evidence that she was intentionally trying to ascend, otherwise why would she leave the outpost and get stuck in the ice? Why wouldn't she stay in the outpost and ascend?


As far as we know, the Ancients didn't necessarly all just happen to have extra-normal abilities beyond great intelligence. Usually, it was those getting close to ascension that began to exhibit those qualities.
Ancients were regular ol' humans unless they were 'on the path', which is when they developed special abilities.

Also, their 'great intelligence' isn't exactly a given. They simply have a much bigger library of knowledge to refer to when they need to study/learn something. It's not like they were all geniuses.


Aiyana was ill, that is certain, and it would seem very likely that her goal had been to use ascension to escape it. Then she got stuck in the ice.
That's a weak hypothesis I would tend to agree with.


The fact is, there COULD be an entire continent of Ancient ruins under the ice of Antartica. There is a plate of ice a mile thick covering much of the continent. It could very well be that there are many cities and such hidden beneath.
Then why was Atlantis perched on top of the ice when it was shown at the beginning of Rising?

Also, there was about mile of ice covering the Atlantis Outpost, not the actual surface of the continent. The actual surface of the continent is, in many areas, below sea level, and has been for 15+ million years due to the pressure of the ice pushing down on it.

I guess that would explain why Atlantis was perched on the ice though, wouldn't it?


One of MY personal nitpicks (sort of covered in 'The Lost City') was that the writers forgot that Antartica wasn't actually AT the South Pole 3-5 million years ago, and was in fact much further north, and much warmer.
You should probably read about that (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Antartica#Geological_history_and_paleontology) which you clearly have no knowledge of.


As I recall there are petrified trees, and evidence of free flowing rivers in Antartica even now from as a short time ago as 10,000 years ago.
Wrong again. There hasn't been any living trees in Antarctica in at least 6 million years, and more likely 15 million years.


On the other hand, there are a lot of little flaws here and there, and one just has to get over it. :p
Or one could educate oneself about such subjects before they start writing fan fiction as if it were true.


Again, the point being that there may have been many thousands of people left on Earth for all we know when Atlantis left.
There's absolutely no evidence to support this claim.


We only saw Aiyana on the SG:A pilot (because we were already familiar with her), but we can't assume there wasn't ANYONE else. You see, assumptions can run both ways, and most of us are guilty of it at some point.
If you had even the tiniest clue about how the scientific method worked, you wouldn't be making such a claim.

You only make a hypothesis when there is EVIDENCE to support your assumptions. Otherwise it's just conjecture.


...

Apparently this forum doesn't allow posts with more than 12,000 characters, so I'm splitting my reply in two.

Jarnin
July 30th, 2007, 03:12 PM
Well, for one (possibly) was the Tel'chak device. As far as we know it had not been offworld until the Tau'ri found it. That being aside from the Antartic gate that was CERTAINLY there before the Goa'uld arrived, along with the Ancient outpost.
You're making things up yet again.

The Tel'chak device was an ancient device, I'll grant you that, but it was called the Tel'chak device because it was named after a Goa'uld named Tel'chak. The Goa'uld who invented the Sarchophagus. The Goa'uld Anubis went to war with in order to obtain the device for himself, and the Goa'uld who was defeated by Anubis. Tel'chak hid the device on Earth in one of his temples, and that is where Daniel and Dr. Lee found it.


Not so. Hathor herself told Daniel that humans were particularly enjoyable for them as hosts.
That was her opinion, not the opinion of all the Goa'uld.


Also, they had been using Unas to work with leftover Ancient technology for many years before they even found humans.
But they stopped using Unas as hosts when they discovered that ancient technology worked better with a human host.


On the other hand, the Goa'uld are hedonists, and have made no secret of their enjoying the sensuality of the human host. Very likely much nicer than the rough skinned Unas.
You're forgetting that when a Goa'uld takes a host they blend with their host's mind, taking on many qualities of the host. As an Unas they'd take on Unas qualities, and in a human, they'd take on human qualities.

They only like sex because humans like sex.


Unas are much stronger, that is certainly true. That we have yet to encounter an un-Goa'ulded Unas that wasn't practically living a stone-age life style, isn't to say they don't have the potential for creating a more technologically advanced society, they just haven't so far as we know, not even on their original homeworld, where the odds for it would've been best, if only for the amount of time available to have done so.
Since we haven't been back to the Unas' original homeworld, there is a lack of data either way, as I already pointed out.


It is true that Chaka was wearing tailored clothes, but NOT because of the skill of the Unas in tool making. It was because they were living among humans with greater tool making skills, and there was trade between them following peace (albeit a fragile one apparently), which is of course a hallmark of Unas diplomacy (as seen in 'Enemy Mine').
The Unas on their homeworld were not living among humans, or at least there was no mention of it in any episode.

In Beast of Burden Chaka was apparently still living a paleolithic lifestyle. Then, in Enemy Mine he was wearing clothing that would indicate a neolithic lifestyle.

Daniel stated in Enemy Mine that he (singular) had periodic contact with Chaka, and that he'd made impressive progress in his understanding of humans. That would indicate that Chaka made those clothes himself, and learned about human ways all on his own, thus showing intelligence.


I agree that Ra was indeed the Supreme System Lord, but that didn't stop the Goa'uld from fighting with each other, or even Ra himself, long before Jack and Daniel killed him.
I never implied that the Goa'uld weren't backstabbing each other under Ra's rule. Only that he kept them in check.


If you recall, Apophis was fighting Ra for control of a planet long before the stargate had been opened on Earth, and it was a major turning point for Teal'c in his beliefs about the divinity of the Goa'uld.
Apophis was an outcast system lord, a rebel against Ra. This happened after Ra and Apophis had allied themselves against Sokar.


Keep in mind though, that there WAS a power struggle on Earth before Ra abandoned it. That was why Hathor, Osiris, and Isis were placed in stasis, and Seth hid amongst the humans. It was because of an internal struggle for power on Earth against Ra.
Not on Earth, throughout the galaxy. I don't know why you continue to make Earth this important place in history for both the ancients and the Goa'uld; perhaps you're a geophile?


It was likely after (or during?) this, that many of the other Goa'uld (such as Yu, Nirti, Cronis, and others) started to leave Earth building the centers for their domains elsewhere.
Again with Earth...

These Goa'uld thought Earth was a back-water planet with no important qualities beyond the humans they used for hosts. Ra was the only Goa'uld that seemed to spend a lot of time here. The others came, played the god part, gathered humans who worshiped them for hosts, slaves and Jaffa, then headed back to where the action was.


Not so much as you claim, as I explained above.
Ok, lets call it a weak hypothesis then. You are using some evidence from the series, but you're weaving it with your own ideas to tell a story; that's called fan-fiction in my book.


I was allowing for flexability. Certainly, as far as it is known, that Ra was the first to come to Earth and establish an order. That isn't to say that he hadn't had a scout (servant?) find it first and report back, before he came himself. There was never that much detail given. Nor is it really necessary in the long run.
So what you're saying is you're writing fan-fiction and passing it off as fact. I've seen your "The Sci. & Tech. Concordance and Discussion Thread" and it's just as flawed with conjecture and fan-fiction as your original post in this thread.


As far as I know, neither the Asgard or the Nox had any biological relationship to the Ancients, and yet both look remarkably humanoid.
Which should be evidence enough to indicate a common link between them. See, there's actually evidence here!


Possibly, but not necessarily, as we don't know the exact methodology the Ancients used. It is clear that they had done some experimentation with societal development. So who knows?
Humans in the Pegasus galaxy could not have developed as quickly as they did if the ancients started their grand experiement from scratch. It's biologically impossible.


Look, I see a lot of merit in what you've written, but you simply cannot pass fan-fiction off as fact. Unless there is direct evidence from the series, it's an unknown.

I get that you want to fill in the blanks, but it's not our place as fans to do that. If you want to write stories and create Stargate History, that's great. Just don't try to pass it off as fact.

Seastallion
August 1st, 2007, 10:29 AM
To begin with, I'm not here to argue with you, so lets dial down the tone. ok? I simply don't have the time for it, as my time is limited right now. Once I get regular internet usage available to me again, I could take more time. As it is, I'm having to write quickly and go for now. Hopefully in a couple of months that situation will change.


There hasn't been any mention of the atomic number in the series, but the now defunct SG-1 role-playing game said it was #244 or so. Of course that's so far off it's laughable.

If I'm recalling your reference, you took that statement out of context. Which episode was it exactly?

Several, in which the Atlantis team had had opportunity to have contact with the Ancients themselves. If I recall, (and again, I'm not saying my memory is exact or infallible) the Ancients on board the Ancient Warship were headed to Earth themselves. Also, why, on god's green Earth, would they be heading TO Earth of all places in the galaxy if it didn't hold some sort of importance for them? I ALREADY said I didn't think the Earth had been the center of any empire, of them OR the Goa'uld, with the possible exception of when Ra was on Earth.


It was set up that way so they could return to Earth after they lost the war with the Wraith.

Again, why Earth of all places they could go? It is clear (from what Morgan Lefay told Daniel), that they didn't find what they had hoped for. They got there and found they wouldn't be able to rebuild their society on Earth, so they either left Earth, went and lived among the primitive tribes of man, or became hermits in order to ascend. It would seem that they had been expecting to find something on Earth, and were dissappointed. i.e.- something went wrong. Perhaps their civilization had been along the coastlines, which had been seriously flooded at the end of the last ice age, and buried beneath the waters. Who knows? I'm just throwing ideas out there...



Again, you're taking statements out of context to support your ideas.

Why don't you reference the material instead of summarizing it?

Great belt of Stars... They named their new home 'Avalon'...

Earth is not a great belt of stars, it's a planet. Their new home was a galaxy, not a single world, otherwise why even mention that they built many 'astria porta'?

See, you're taking dialog out of context to support your own ideas, and then you don't even reference the material so nobody can check your citations.

Okay, I can go with that. So the galaxy was named Avalon. See? I'm not unreasonable. I'm not infallible. I see no reason for a hostile tone. One reason, I'm NOT taking the time to reference things right now, is (as I said above) I don't have time. I only have a limited time to be on. So give me a break? When I have the luxury to take time and do as such, I will. Right now, I don't have it.


There are LOTS of reasons to suggest it wasn't Earth, you're just ignoring those reason because you WANT it to be Earth.

But we don't know how long they lived here. There are no Alteran ruins on Earth, and the only Lantean structures found was the Antarctica Outpost.
As far as we know, they stopped by here, messed with the DNA of life on Earth, then left.

And until they find other remains, there's no reason to think more will be found unless the writers give us a reason.

Again, I doubt they would've come back specifically to Earth, if they hadn't EXPECTED to find something to rebuild their civilization with. Why didn't they go to another world, where they knew they'd have what they needed to begin again? Earth WAS more important to them than just as some arbitrary seed world. That much is certain. As I said, Earth has suffered serious geological disturbances in the last few million years, and that could've buried what it was they were expecting to find. (ruins? cache of technology? whatever...)


She was on 'the path to ascension' defined by the events in the Atlantis episode Epiphany. There's no evidence that she was intentionally trying to ascend, otherwise why would she leave the outpost and get stuck in the ice? Why wouldn't she stay in the outpost and ascend?

From what we've seen it took time for even Ancients to ascend. It was why Merlin and Lefay became hermits after reaching Earth. It was a prolonged process. For all we know, it was necessary for Aiyana to leave the outpost for some emergency or something. There is no way to know why she went outside.


Ancients were regular ol' humans unless they were 'on the path', which is when they developed special abilities.

Also, their 'great intelligence' isn't exactly a given. They simply have a much bigger library of knowledge to refer to when they need to study/learn something. It's not like they were all geniuses.

No, they weren't all geniuses, but as a general rule, even their less educated would've been considered above average in our society.


That's a weak hypothesis I would tend to agree with.

Bit of a back handed compliment, but thanks... :S


Then why was Atlantis perched on top of the ice when it was shown at the beginning of Rising?

Also, there was about mile of ice covering the Atlantis Outpost, not the actual surface of the continent. The actual surface of the continent is, in many areas, below sea level, and has been for 15+ million years due to the pressure of the ice pushing down on it.

I guess that would explain why Atlantis was perched on the ice though, wouldn't it?

You should probably read about that (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Antartica#Geological_history_and_paleontology) which you clearly have no knowledge of.

Wrong again. There hasn't been any living trees in Antarctica in at least 6 million years, and more likely 15 million years.

Admittedly, I'm no scientist. I haven't made it my business to know everything about the prehistoric past of Antartica, but I have read some things here and there. There are those that do believe that Antartica was further north 10,000 years ago than it is today. Some of them tend to be referred to as revisionist historians, but isn't that precisely what Stargate itself is? To qoute O'Neill, as far as Stargate goes, "Darwin would be crushed..." Stargate violates history and even scientific assumptions all the time. I'm not saying your wrong, I'm just saying that given we're dealing with a fictional universe it's okay to be a little extra flexible. Wouldn't you agree?


Or one could educate oneself about such subjects before they start writing fan fiction as if it were true.

Again, with the tone. Chill dude. This isn't heart surgery. It's fiction.


There's absolutely no evidence to support this claim.

No, but again, there is NO reason to believe that there might NOT have been either. Unless you have some evidence indicating otherwise?


If you had even the tiniest clue about how the scientific method worked, you wouldn't be making such a claim.

You only make a hypothesis when there is EVIDENCE to support your assumptions. Otherwise it's just conjecture.
...
Apparently this forum doesn't allow posts with more than 12,000 characters, so I'm splitting my reply in two.

I know how it works. I also know how to be flexible. There is evidence to support that the Ancients had lived on Earth. Why in god's starry universe would Atlantis have been on Earth in the first place, if they hadn't lived there en mass? You really think they just packed their whole civilization into that one city and just flew off? You don't think it might've joined an entire armada of ships for the trip? I would think the idea that they just took off in Atlantis alone to be a bit ridiculous. At the very beginning of the Pilot eps. you see a Puddlejumper returning to Atlantis. Where had it been? Obviously they had more interests on Earth than just the city itself (which was on top of the outpost...).

I'll write more when I have time. I simply don't right now.

Also... If the writers don't 'fill in the gaps' there is NO reason why we fans can't do it. I do it all the time, because I like continuity in my universe. If they don't fill it in, I (and any other fan) have EVERY right to fill it in for my self. As do you.

Jarnin
August 1st, 2007, 02:15 PM
To begin with, I'm not here to argue with you, so lets dial down the tone. ok?
I wasn't under the impression that text can have a 'tone'.


Several, in which the Atlantis team had had opportunity to have contact with the Ancients themselves. If I recall, (and again, I'm not saying my memory is exact or infallible) the Ancients on board the Ancient Warship were headed to Earth themselves. Also, why, on god's green Earth, would they be heading TO Earth of all places in the galaxy if it didn't hold some sort of importance for them?
Dr. Elizabeth Weir. That is why they were headed back to Earth. As soon as they learned she was from Earth, they decided to retreat there.

Of course once they got there, they found Earth to be completely inhospitable and primitive. Apparently they should have asked some questions about Earth before their retreat.


I ALREADY said I didn't think the Earth had been the center of any empire, of them OR the Goa'uld, with the possible exception of when Ra was on Earth.
No, but you consistently make Earth more important than it is in the show.
You've made claims that the ancients had lived there for eons. You've made claims that several Goa'uld systems lords ruled every corner of the Earth for a time. You haven't stated that it was a centerpiece to any empire per say, but you have made it a centerpiece.


It is clear (from what Morgan Lefay told Daniel), that they didn't find what they had hoped for. They got there and found they wouldn't be able to rebuild their society on Earth, so they either left Earth, went and lived among the primitive tribes of man, or became hermits in order to ascend. It would seem that they had been expecting to find something on Earth, and were dissappointed. i.e.- something went wrong. Perhaps their civilization had been along the coastlines, which had been seriously flooded at the end of the last ice age, and buried beneath the waters. Who knows? I'm just throwing ideas out there...
Like I said, the Lanteans based their idea of Earth as a retreat on the appearance of Dr. Weir in the past. Once she showed up and explained she was from Earth, they decided to go there. They should have asked her more questions.


Okay, I can go with that. So the galaxy was named Avalon.
As I explained earlier, the name 'Avalon' has been inconsistently used since they brought it up in season 9. In some episodes, the writers seemed to imply that Avalon was the Altera name for the Milky Way. In other episodes, they seem to imply it was the Altera name for Earth, or even Merlin's caves in Glastonbury.


See? I'm not unreasonable. I'm not infallible. I see no reason for a hostile tone.
I'm not being hostile towards you. I'm hostile towards your ideas because they contradict several things from both series.


Why didn't they go to another world, where they knew they'd have what they needed to begin again?
They did eventually. As Morgan said, some stayed on Earth to live among the primative humans and seed our civilization. Others left and did their own thing.


Earth WAS more important to them than just as some arbitrary seed world. That much is certain.
It was the last planet they knew before leaving for Pegasus. In the 5 million or so years while they were gone, they probably had thought that humanity had advanced to the point that they could live with them, but it turned out human civilization was still too primitive for their liking.

It was Dr. Weir traveling back to the past that gave them the impression that Earth was more advanced than it was. That's why they returned there.


As I said, Earth has suffered serious geological disturbances in the last few million years, and that could've buried what it was they were expecting to find. (ruins? cache of technology? whatever...)
This is conjecture. There isn't any evidence from the show to support this idea.
Is it possible? Sure, next week they could find Lemuria on the bottom of the Pacific ocean and find all sorts of ancient ruins, but since it hasn't happened there's no reason to speculate such things.


No, they weren't all geniuses, but as a general rule, even their less educated would've been considered above average in our society.
Again, conjecture. Making statements without evidence to support those statements is no way to conduct a discussion.


Bit of a back handed compliment, but thanks... :S
I call it like I see it. It was neither back-handed or a compliment.


Admittedly, I'm no scientist. I haven't made it my business to know everything about the prehistoric past of Antartica, but I have read some things here and there. There are those that do believe that Antartica was further north 10,000 years ago than it is today.
And a resounding majority of scientists would disagree with those findings.


Some of them tend to be referred to as revisionist historians, but isn't that precisely what Stargate itself is?
Sorry, no. Revisionists make up history to support their own hypotheses. Science looks back at history and uses the evidence they find to make their hypotheses.

Revisionism isn't science.


To qoute O'Neill, as far as Stargate goes, "Darwin would be crushed..."
You're taking that statement out of context. With what little information O'Neill had at the time he made that statement, he would have been correct. However, with the information we have now, as of season 10, he would have been completely wrong.


Stargate violates history and even scientific assumptions all the time.
Not really. It bends the rules, it doesn't break them.


I'm not saying your wrong, I'm just saying that given we're dealing with a fictional universe it's okay to be a little extra flexible. Wouldn't you agree?
I would agree, as long as it's based on evidence from the series.


Again, with the tone. Chill dude.
Enough already. I'm debating your statements and you're accusing me of ad hominem?


This isn't heart surgery. It's fiction.
It's a debate. It doesn't matter what the subject matter is.


No, but again, there is NO reason to believe that there might NOT have been either. Unless you have some evidence indicating otherwise?
You're the one making statements without evidence, and as Carl Sagan said, "Extraordinary claims require extraordinary proof."

The burden of proof (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Burden_of_proof_%28logical_fallacy%29) is yours.


There is evidence to support that the Ancients had lived on Earth. Why in god's starry universe would Atlantis have been on Earth in the first place, if they hadn't lived there en mass? You really think they just packed their whole civilization into that one city and just flew off?
That's what the evidence from the show implies.


You don't think it might've joined an entire armada of ships for the trip?
No, I don't. See, there's no evidence to support that supposition. Without evidence, it's just a fanciful idea and nothing more.


I would think the idea that they just took off in Atlantis alone to be a bit ridiculous.
You can deny the evidence, but it won't make your position any stronger.


At the very beginning of the Pilot eps. you see a Puddlejumper returning to Atlantis. Where had it been?
Considering the writers never explained that part, there's no information available to explain it.


Obviously they had more interests on Earth than just the city itself (which was on top of the outpost...).
Conjecture. Again.


Also... If the writers don't 'fill in the gaps' there is NO reason why we fans can't do it.
I'm not saying you can't. I'm saying don't present your fan-fiction as fact on the Science and Technology forum.


I do it all the time, because I like continuity in my universe.
I noticed. But your fan-fiction isn't canon and should be presented as conjecture and hypotheticals in this forum.


If they don't fill it in, I (and any other fan) have EVERY right to fill it in for my self. As do you.
You don't own the material you're writing about. MGM/SONY does. If they wanted to, they could sue the pants off anybody who creates anything with their intellectual property, but they don't because they'd be biting the hand that feeds them.

In other words, you have NO RIGHT AT ALL to take their property and make it your own. MGM/SONY allows you to do so in the hopes that you'll remain a fan of the franchise.

Seastallion
August 2nd, 2007, 07:54 AM
I wasn't under the impression that text can have a 'tone'.

Certainly it can. What you write, and the words you use do indeed have a 'tone'. Tone is implied by the body of text itself.


Dr. Elizabeth Weir. That is why they were headed back to Earth. As soon as they learned she was from Earth, they decided to retreat there.

Of course once they got there, they found Earth to be completely inhospitable and primitive. Apparently they should have asked some questions about Earth before their retreat.

No, but you consistently make Earth more important than it is in the show.
You've made claims that the ancients had lived there for eons. You've made claims that several Goa'uld systems lords ruled every corner of the Earth for a time. You haven't stated that it was a centerpiece to any empire per say, but you have made it a centerpiece.

Like I said, the Lanteans based their idea of Earth as a retreat on the appearance of Dr. Weir in the past. Once she showed up and explained she was from Earth, they decided to go there. They should have asked her more questions.

Sorry, but you are completely wrong about this. They didn't go to Earth because of Dr. Weir. They were WELL aware that she had come from the distant future (they even had a debate in counsel over the subject), and they had been sending people to Earth before Dr. Weir even arrived. Using a single stargate, it would take time to evacuate an entire galaxy's worth of Ancients. By the time Weir arrived the last ships were arriving to Atlantis for evacuation, just before they closed the city down for good. Talk about making stuff up... I don't know what the Ancients would have expected to find, but it had nothing to do with Dr. Weir's arrival. The only thing that Dr. Weir's arrival caused was the emergency protocols (to save Atlantis) put in place by Janus, the Ancient scientist that Weir befriended.


As I explained earlier, the name 'Avalon' has been inconsistently used since they brought it up in season 9. In some episodes, the writers seemed to imply that Avalon was the Altera name for the Milky Way. In other episodes, they seem to imply it was the Altera name for Earth, or even Merlin's caves in Glastonbury.

Well, whatever.


I'm not being hostile towards you. I'm hostile towards your ideas because they contradict several things from both series.

That's no reason to come off like a jerk. You can disagree without being disagreeable. Try being a little more polite. It goes a long way.


They did eventually. As Morgan said, some stayed on Earth to live among the primative humans and seed our civilization. Others left and did their own thing.

It was the last planet they knew before leaving for Pegasus. In the 5 million or so years while they were gone, they probably had thought that humanity had advanced to the point that they could live with them, but it turned out human civilization was still too primitive for their liking.

First is YOUR assumption that Earth was the last planet they knew. The series does NOT support that argument. We ONLY know that Atlantis left from Earth, not if any other worlds were evacuated to Pegasus as well. Second, yet again you are assuming something that isn't given any basis for in the series. Some of the Ancients DID go and live with the humans despite living conditions. You might be right, but there is no indication that that was specifically what they were expecting. That they might have had something left behind there that they thought would help them rebuild is just as valid a theory.


It was Dr. Weir traveling back to the past that gave them the impression that Earth was more advanced than it was. That's why they returned there.

Again, that is a completely bogus argument. They were well aware that she was from the distant future, and there is no doubt that she explained her predicament, as well as how she got into it in the first place. The Ancients KNEW that humans on Earth at the time they left, weren't yet that advanced.


This is conjecture. There isn't any evidence from the show to support this idea. Is it possible? Sure, next week they could find Lemuria on the bottom of the Pacific ocean and find all sorts of ancient ruins, but since it hasn't happened there's no reason to speculate such things.

Your full of it. It is NOT conjecture that the Earth has suffered catastrophic disasters in the past several million years. I'm not talking about continents rising or falling necessarily. I'm talking about severe climate change (the end of the last ice age which flooded a massive amount of the worlds coastal regions killing a very great many people??), earthquakes and other geological disturbances, such as Krakatoa and similiar eruptions. The shock wave from Krakatoa was literally heard around the world. The legends of the Thunderbird coincide with disasterous quakes and Tsunamis. Every ancient culture on Earth has it's own version of 'Noah and the Flood'. It isn't coicidence. The Mediterranean valley flooding and then becoming a sea, as a result of a crack in what is today known as the Rock of Gibraltar (Pillars of Hercules) which formed because of an Earthquake, thus allowing water from the Atlantic ocean to fill the great valley until it became a great sea. There are many examples of geological and meteorological disturbances that have had sever impact upon humanity and the planet itself. The end of the last ice age caused the loss of literally millions of square miles of habitable land. It's consequences were felt all over the world. ...and by the by, it was about 10,000 years ago, that that specific event happened. It was a very turbulent time for the planet.


Again, conjecture. Making statements without evidence to support those statements is no way to conduct a discussion.

You really believe a race of people capable of ascension really had that many idiots? I doubt it. Sure, their intelligence made them arrogant, and thus prone to mistakes, but it would be whacked to assume that they weren't in general more intelligent than modern humans in general.


I call it like I see it. It was neither back-handed or a compliment.

Whatever...


And a resounding majority of scientists would disagree with those findings.

Maybe, but that doesn't mean they are right either. Just because a thousand people say something doesn't make it so. They could be mistaken. There are lots of commonly held ideas that are mistaken, and many in the past have taken a long time before those perceptions were corrected. I'm not saying they're wrong, but just that they COULD be. Scientist can be everybit as territorial as religious zealots, and just as blind too. Sometimes the truth is more elusive than people think.


Sorry, no. Revisionists make up history to support their own hypotheses. Science looks back at history and uses the evidence they find to make their hypotheses.

Not neccessarily. Some of those that are called Revisionist simply have a different theory of how it might've been, but in many cases their isn't sufficient evidence to support or debunk said theories. Or in other cases there is evidence, but it is shouted down or covered up by Academia. Don't think that historians and scientist of Academia are to noble and righteous to not do such things. They've been doing it for thousands of years, and they still do it today. The difference is that there is at least a forum for some ideas to still survive somewhat, even if they are on the so-called 'fringe'. There are many 'fringe' ideas that in time became commonly accepted ideas after more evidence was uncovered. Sometimes it took quite a while. Just one example. The Sphinx of egypt has vertical erosion rather than horizontal. This is indicative of rain, whereas horizontal erosion is the result of wind and sand. There has been little rainfall over egypt since the end of the ice age 10,000 years ago, which would beg the question; where did all that water erosion come from then? Main stream archaeology doesn't want to support the idea that the sphinx might be as old as that, even though it was a geologist that examined and reported his findings. One would suppose a geologist would be more familiar with the causes of erosion than an archaeologist.


Revisionism isn't science.

Didn't say it was. It can be useful, if only to get people to think and re-examine old ideas from time to time though.


You're taking that statement out of context. With what little information O'Neill had at the time he made that statement, he would have been correct. However, with the information we have now, as of season 10, he would have been completely wrong.

Not really. It bends the rules, it doesn't break them.

Stargate revises 'actual' history all the time. Main-stream academia would say they did break actual history, but generally leave it alone because it is presented as fiction for entertainment (which it is..).


I would agree, as long as it's based on evidence from the series.

Enough already. I'm debating your statements and you're accusing me of ad hominem?

It's a debate. It doesn't matter what the subject matter is.

You're the one making statements without evidence, and as Carl Sagan said, "Extraordinary claims require extraordinary proof."

The burden of proof (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Burden_of_proof_%28logical_fallacy%29) is yours.

That's what the evidence from the show implies.

No, I don't. See, there's no evidence to support that supposition. Without evidence, it's just a fanciful idea and nothing more.

You can deny the evidence, but it won't make your position any stronger.

Considering the writers never explained that part, there's no information available to explain it.

Conjecture. Again.

I'm not saying you can't. I'm saying don't present your fan-fiction as fact on the Science and Technology forum.

I noticed. But your fan-fiction isn't canon and should be presented as conjecture and hypotheticals in this forum.

You don't own the material you're writing about. MGM/SONY does. If they wanted to, they could sue the pants off anybody who creates anything with their intellectual property, but they don't because they'd be biting the hand that feeds them.

In other words, you have NO RIGHT AT ALL to take their property and make it your own. MGM/SONY allows you to do so in the hopes that you'll remain a fan of the franchise.

Sorry, just didn't have time to work on the rest. Maybe later. ;)

Jarnin
August 2nd, 2007, 05:09 PM
Certainly it can. What you write, and the words you use do indeed have a 'tone'. Tone is implied by the body of text itself.
I disagree. 'Tone' is interpreted by the reader. Specially in this case.


Sorry, but you are completely wrong about this. They didn't go to Earth because of Dr. Weir.
Was there a single mention by any Lanteans that they were going to retreat to Earth before they learned that Weir was from Earth? No. Not a single word. They find out she's from Earth and then they decide to retreat there.


They were WELL aware that she had come from the distant future (they even had a debate in counsel over the subject)
I agree.


and they had been sending people to Earth before Dr. Weir even arrived.
Conjecture. Yet Again. Where is the evidence that anybody had traveled to Earth, while Atlantis was in Pegasus, prior to Weir arriving in Atlantis 10,000 years ago?


Using a single stargate, it would take time to evacuate an entire galaxy's worth of Ancients.
There's been plenty of references that the Wraith fought the Lanteans and pushed them back until Atlantis was all that remained. The only people that went to Earth were those in Atlantis and a single ship that was in contact with Atlantis.


By the time Weir arrived the last ships were arriving to Atlantis for evacuation, just before they closed the city down for good.
Moros asked Weir if she was from Earth. Once she said yes, they suddenly had plans to evacuate the city to Earth.


I don't know what the Ancients would have expected to find, but it had nothing to do with Dr. Weir's arrival.
There's circumstantial evidence that supports what I said.


That's no reason to come off like a jerk.
Ad hominem.


First is YOUR assumption that Earth was the last planet they knew. The series does NOT support that argument.
There's no evidence that says otherwise.


We ONLY know that Atlantis left from Earth, not if any other worlds were evacuated to Pegasus as well.
Conjecture. If you can provide evidence for that statement, I might see differently.


Second, yet again you are assuming something that isn't given any basis for in the series.
Dr. Weir is the evidence. They knew she was from the future, but they had no idea that humans 10,000 years ago were any less civilized than her.


You might be right, but there is no indication that that was specifically what they were expecting.
They were retreating to Earth because they thought they'd have a chance there. They were wrong. Pegasus Project makes this case.


That they might have had something left behind there that they thought would help them rebuild is just as valid a theory.
No it isn't. It's conjecture.

A theory has evidence that has been tested several times by several people to support it, and theories have to be able to make predictions about future events.

A hypothesis has untested evidence that supports it. If it survives testing, and can make predictions about future events, it might become a theory.

A conjecture has no evidence that supports it.


Again, that is a completely bogus argument.
No, it isn't.


They were well aware that she was from the distant future, and there is no doubt that she explained her predicament
There obviously is doubt. There's no evidence that she told them anything about Earth, and there's actually evidence that supports the idea.


The Ancients KNEW that humans on Earth at the time they left, weren't yet that advanced.
5 million years had passed. They had no clue what humans on Earth were like. Their only clue was Dr. Weir.


Your full of it.
This is a second case of Ad hominem in your post, so I'm done. You can argue against my ideas, but when you resort to name calling you've already lost the debate.

Look, I've made my point here several times, and you've ignored it. Instead of providing evidence to support your claims, you ignore evidence and continue coming up with conjecture to support your fan fiction.

If you can provide evidence to support your claims, then I'll give them another look and see if it all makes sense.

Seastallion
August 3rd, 2007, 11:25 AM
Funny. I was just about to drop the debate myself. I don't have time for it, and it really doesn't matter. However, I never once called you (Jarnin) a name. I said you were 'full of it'. None of those three words are a name, nor have I called you one in a previous post. We obviously disagree, so lets just leave it at that. Take care, and long live the gate..!

Regardless of our differences of opinion. ;)

Heaven
August 3rd, 2007, 11:55 AM
maybe I don't get the timeline thing
but the way I understand it the only universe that was affected by alternate Weir's actions is ours, in her original universe the ancients came back to Earth without ever meeting her.

Seastallion
August 3rd, 2007, 12:03 PM
maybe I don't get the timeline thing
but the way I understand it the only universe that was affected by alternate Weir's actions is ours, in her original universe the ancients came back to Earth without ever meeting her.

True enough. Although, I suppose some might say it was just a paradox. However, it wouldn't explain those universes where Earth never found Atlantis, but the Ancients came back anyways.