PDA

View Full Version : SG Universe should have a F302 Carrier



McSwift
July 12th, 2007, 11:53 AM
Do you guys think that SGA should get a new type of ship. Instead of having capabilties like the DSC304, we have a ship like an aircraft carrier with many F302s?

Col. Matarrese
July 12th, 2007, 12:17 PM
Do you guys think that SGA should get a new type of ship. Instead of having capabilties like the DSC304, we have a ship like an aircraft carrier with many F302s?

it isn't what we need right now. We need battle cruisers, not carriers for low end fighter craft with mediocre pilots.

IcyNeko
July 12th, 2007, 12:19 PM
A carrier is a cruel thing to have if it doesn't have enough shields. If the carrier is lost, the 302's going to haev a long flight home. Long. really long.

Prior_of_the_Ori
July 12th, 2007, 01:40 PM
Don't think Earth has anywhere near the population or interstellar state capabilities to risk pilots against enemies that are most likely both technologically superior as well as outnumbering Earth.

2ndgenerationalteran
July 12th, 2007, 11:06 PM
At best a F302 is a support vehical, you can't expect them or any other fighters for that matter to change the tides of a space battle. Against Hives, maybe but the number of darts outnumber the 302s we can put out. A carrier would be useful if we are invading a planet, though but that doesn't fit us. Thinking logically though, its size will allow a lot of room for weapons turrets, but the power requirements should be quite large. Maybe later as our Capital ship, but that seems to have pretty much been given to the Odyssey.

ManiacMike
July 12th, 2007, 11:16 PM
Carriers should not be on front of the list of ships we need, but maybe somewhere in the middle.

Right now we need war ships.

Then maybe some cruisers.


THEN we can use carriers when they are companied by warships.

Carriers in war are usually cannon fodder because they have limited offensive capabilities.

Exiled Master
July 12th, 2007, 11:22 PM
Carriers should not be on front of the list of ships we need, but maybe somewhere in the middle.

Right now we need war ships.

Then maybe some cruisers.


THEN we can use carriers when they are companied by warships.

Carriers in war are usually cannon fodder because they have limited offensive capabilities.

Carriers are by no means cannon fodder, but they do need to be protected.

McSwift
July 13th, 2007, 03:14 AM
A carrier is a cruel thing to have if it doesn't have enough shields. If the carrier is lost, the 302's going to haev a long flight home. Long. really long.

Look. Battlestar Galactica or Pegasus is a pretty huge ship with alot of firepower. No shields, and can handle a firefight.

Daedalus held off a dozen hive ships and support ships in 2x01 for several minutes no problem.

Odyssey and Korelev handled an Ori ship, although did horribly, lasted just as long too.



If anything, now since we have Asgard Tech, and Asgard Shields. I'm sure we can handle ourselves now. I'm pretty sure a carrier should would be best used in Atlantis, where F302s have been proven as a valuable resource to use against the Wraith.

BTW. Remember that the new Asgard Shields held up against the Ori in Unending.

wise one
July 13th, 2007, 05:20 AM
right now i think we have transport ships but the oddessy is kinda like a super defence transport ship

earth needs to make a ship that can go into war and destroy other ships and once we fould a way to make crazy energy weapon maybe knowledge from the ancients or asgard then we will certainly rock!!!!!

MechaThor
July 13th, 2007, 05:36 AM
Yeah we have one. Its called the Odessey! Which is not only a battleship but also a carrier fro F-302s. However i think we should instaed build bigger and more powerful battle ships with advanced weapons than have a fleet of carriers. Also small Alkesh like bombs would be cool.

Jimbo-DR
July 13th, 2007, 08:24 AM
Everyone is thinking of very linear terms on this. In Star trek, they could build a constitution class Hull, which is old compared to next Gen ships, but if they put the most advanced weaponry and shields on it, it could easily be a match for Next Gen ships. With the limited resources we have anyway, why bother building something so crappy?

I mean, we could build the carrier, and then say, well, you know, it really wouldn't be that hard to put Beam weapons on the sides and maybe upgrade the shields, why not do that?

The shape and "Class" of the ship really mean nothing, it's the subsystems that mean everything.

ManiacMike
July 13th, 2007, 11:11 AM
Look. Battlestar Galactica or Pegasus is a pretty huge ship with alot of firepower. No shields, and can handle a firefight.

Daedalus held off a dozen hive ships and support ships in 2x01 for several minutes no problem.

Odyssey and Korelev handled an Ori ship, although did horribly, lasted just as long too.



If anything, now since we have Asgard Tech, and Asgard Shields. I'm sure we can handle ourselves now. I'm pretty sure a carrier should would be best used in Atlantis, where F302s have been proven as a valuable resource to use against the Wraith.

BTW. Remember that the new Asgard Shields held up against the Ori in Unending.

It also had a zpm in it.

we dont have a big supply of those.

VSHARMA
July 13th, 2007, 12:45 PM
The DSC is a Carrier

D=DEEP

S=SPACE

C=CARRIER

It carriers 16 F302's

spacecowboy000
July 13th, 2007, 01:35 PM
Look. Battlestar Galactica or Pegasus is a pretty huge ship with alot of firepower. No shields, and can handle a firefight.

Daedalus held off a dozen hive ships and support ships in 2x01 for several minutes no problem.

Odyssey and Korelev handled an Ori ship, although did horribly, lasted just as long too.



If anything, now since we have Asgard Tech, and Asgard Shields. I'm sure we can handle ourselves now. I'm pretty sure a carrier should would be best used in Atlantis, where F302s have been proven as a valuable resource to use against the Wraith.

BTW. Remember that the new Asgard Shields held up against the Ori in Unending.

The main idea behind a battlestar is the concept of a battle wagon. A ship designed to not only deploy large amounts of fighters, but to also provide fire support and engage capital ships. The Wraith Hiveships are designed in this way. The 304's primary objective is capital ship combat with fighter deployment as a secondary objective. In that respect it has more in common with Wraith cruiser. I believe perhaps one maybe two (one in MW & one in Pegasus) Earth designed battle wagons should be considered in the future, but for now Earth should concentrate on the creation of 304's on a cost/gain analysis.

Wraith_Boy
July 13th, 2007, 03:15 PM
Do you guys think that SGA should get a new type of ship. Instead of having capabilties like the DSC304, we have a ship like an aircraft carrier with many F302s?

It would be a total waste. Firstly they are lacking any proper warships. Which is a far more valuable thing to have in a firefight.

302's have no energy weapons, shields or any of the rest. Hives carry many hundreds of the things. So even if you built a huge ass ship that had 50 or whatever of them. Do you think they'd be able to take on a few hundred Darts at least, combined with multiple turret blasts every few seconds.

They would take out some but they'd be massacred. Just look at 'No Man's Land' & see how easy they took Shep out in the space of a few secs. A 304 can't take even a single Wraith hit or it's goodnight.

302's are only good for something like a bombing run or whatever. Why use 302's to protect or take out Darts, when you can install rail guns all over it & fire 10,000+ rounds a minute from each one at them all.

If the carrier went up, then the 302's would be screwed if there wasn't a nearby planet. We've never seen a proper dedicated fighter carrier from anybody thus far & for good reason. The only way they should even consider it would be if they could fit it with energy weapons, Wraith beaming technology, Asgard beaming technology, shields & power source, hyperdrive & cloaking generator. If they could do that, then it would be worth considering because each new breed of fighter would be a match for anything that they came up against.

As things stand, it'd be a terrible waste of resources. The priority for the forseeable future would be to build up as many warships as possible. If not a new breed, then at least upgraded 304's equal to Odyssey (minus the ZPM of course).


Look. Battlestar Galactica or Pegasus is a pretty huge ship with alot of firepower. No shields, and can handle a firefight.

Daedalus held off a dozen hive ships and support ships in 2x01 for several minutes no problem.

Odyssey and Korelev handled an Ori ship, although did horribly, lasted just as long too.

If anything, now since we have Asgard Tech, and Asgard Shields. I'm sure we can handle ourselves now. I'm pretty sure a carrier should would be best used in Atlantis, where F302s have been proven as a valuable resource to use against the Wraith.

BTW. Remember that the new Asgard Shields held up against the Ori in Unending.

BSG is set in an entirely different universe, so because that show has something doesn't make it exactly equal for anything that goes on in Stargate land! Not to mention they don't have multiple Aliens with incredible powerful weapons contantly fired at them in any firefight. ;)

In 2x01, if you watch it, hardly any of the ships were firing at it never mind all of them. In 2x20, it got it's ass kicked by 2 very quickly. In 3x01, it got it's ass severely kicked again. So simply put it can't handle Hives without any serious problems. The only time they got lucky resulted in a single hit & it took every missile they had in order to achive it, leaving them out of ammo & defenceless if anything else had happened like another ship suddely appearing or whatever.

Daedalus could have been easily destroyed in 2x20, it was the Hives who left it alive for whatever reason. Simply put, 304's cannot handle Hives until they get energy weapons & a little power upgrade to boost the shields.

Odyssey & Korolev didn't do anything other than pointlessly fire their weapons in vain. Also they didn't 'last' as you put it. They weren't taking constant fire. The Ori ships were taking on 20/30+ allied ships so the weapons fire was being spread out between them. Odyssey took 2 hits & it was totally on it's back. Korolev took 3 & it was gone. That's not called 'lasting', 'surviving', 'fighting' or whatever term you may think it justifies. Odyssey had a ZPM in 10x20 & it still took a heck of a beating from the Ori ships.

Lastly the 304's have always had the same shields since they were first introduced in S2 of Atlantis. They didn't magically get brand new shields in 'Unending'! The shields were the exact same as the one Daedalus sporeted in Atlantis 2x01. What they had over the other 304's was the ZPM to boost the shields to full power.

That's why they were given the ZPM in 'Echoes'.

"WEIR: OK, how about the Odyssey then? They’re getting the other ZPM to help them in their fight against the Ori."

The 304's have always had the same shields, they've simply lacked a proper power source to run the Asgard technology to it's maximum potential like the shields, hyperdrive etc. Remove the ZPM & it's shields go back down regulation strength.

The end up is that carriers with 302's as they are an incredible waste of resources & time. If you were gonna build a huge ship, then why not cut that & build 2 304's. Equip them with energy weapons & send them out to multiple locations. Why bother building a huge 1/2km+ ship to ferry 302's that can only carry a few warheads each, a small number of bullets & virtually nothing else. A single hit from a Wraith weapon & it's done. It has no shield, no energy weapons, no cloak, no beaming tech, no hyperdrive or anything.

Then comes the next point, 50 or whatever 302's getting launched from it, when a Hive rolls up & deploys many many hundred opposing fighters that don't need to worry about their weapons running out of ammo.

The Asurans are the main threat, Wraith are contained in Pegasus. Asurans are building ships to wipe out Earth & the human population. Yet they would consider wasting all their time & resources building a carrier ship for crappy little fighters. 304 missiles can't even damage Goa'uld shields correctly. So 302's would be pointless against any sort of shielded target.

If they are facing a horde of enemy Darts, the best & only proper tactic was what Caldwell suggested in 2x01. That was to fire all the rail guns at them! Rail guns can fire 10,000+ round per minute each at the very least. Use all them on the 304 to mow the Darets to pieces & you save yourself billions of dollars, many, many, many months in construction time & enough resources to build 2/3/4 304's that they can outfit with the Asgard weapons & all the rest.

In real life, if someone suggested wasting such resources on a secondary enemy that are no real threat to you in your home galaxy. While another enemy that can attack & wipe you out easily whenever they wanted is left free to their own schemes to take you out, then honestly, that person would be fired/sacked straight away for incompetence!

The Asurans are the main threat to not only Atlantis but also Earth. They need to get as many ships as they can for when the time comes that they'll be doing battle. That is & should always be their only priority!

Jimbo-DR
July 13th, 2007, 05:08 PM
Actually we don't know whether or not the Asgard upgraded our shields in Unending..

It's very possible that they didn't give us their top of the line technology UNTIL unending. A lot of people say its just because of power issues, but thinkn about this:

The Asgard, even before Unending, hooked us up with a whole bunch of crap, as long as it wasn't offensive. It stands to reason that they'd also give us a good enough generator to power those devices. So I think its more than likely that we did NOT have their best technology UNTIL Unending.

Col. Shadow Quinn
July 13th, 2007, 08:24 PM
Do you guys think that SGA should get a new type of ship. Instead of having capabilties like the DSC304, we have a ship like an aircraft carrier with many F302s?

Hell no! What we need are heavy warships capable of dishing out **** loads of damage against an enemy capital ship. Carriers don't have the firepower to take on a Hatak and win. In Stargate, it's never about how many fighters you have, it's about the weapons being used against enemy capital ships.

Ripple in Space
July 13th, 2007, 08:35 PM
If Earth does get a Capital Ship, Caldwell needs to command it.

Gen. Nuke
July 13th, 2007, 08:47 PM
F-302's is not even effective offensively as the F-35s...It carries only number of missiles. F-302 is only limited to air superiority role, not strike role...

And we had not yet developed a weapon that can be carried by a single fighter to destroy a capital ship..I think that will be the start of the carrier dominance.

If we will be developing carries, we must developed various kinds of craft too.

2ndgenerationalteran
July 13th, 2007, 09:36 PM
Hell no! What we need are heavy warships capable of dishing out **** loads of damage against an enemy capital ship. Carriers don't have the firepower to take on a Hatak and win. In Stargate, it's never about how many fighters you have, it's about the weapons being used against enemy capital ships.

Agreed, almost all the shields were shown to be impervious to all fighter fire. In the Lost City Pt II even the Prometheus with some, pretty low tech shields handled the constant bombardment from dozens of death gliders and Alkesh, then broke off and headed straight for Anubis's capital ship. But the Lucian Alliance puts the Odyssey with great respect, and they seem to fear it, so perhaps they do more damage to Hatak shields than we thought.

But it should be noted we do not have a standing fleet, we only have several ships that serve multiple functions. American naval carriers are always escorted, usually by several battle ships, subs and other ships. They carry around 90 planes each. If Earth makes a space carrier they would have to exceed these, and be escorted everywhere by at least 3 304s. They should have more functions than a 304 can have, and giving the size it would take to hold over 100 302s and other classes of ships we haven't even made yet the only way we could effectively power the ship would to use a ZPM. But the main focus would not be on the multitude of fighters on board, it would be the new things we update that ship with. (and we can all admit we want a new ship with a completely new look)

The Asgard core seems pretty permanent, and if it cannot be removed from the Odyssey, i would recommend a second option that hasn't been brought up in a long time. Building over the Odyssey, the last time this was brought up was when someone proposed the Prometheus should be upgraded to a larger capital ship. It would require no removing of the Asgard core, but the ship would be pretty torn up on the outside until we finish enhancing it. If it happens i don't expect it to happen for a long, long time and it would only be shown in Atlantis.

VSHARMA
July 14th, 2007, 01:14 PM
Anyone know how many Death Gliders a Ha'tak can have? I'm sure it more than 16?

If you want to make Earth more powerfull, a fleet of Alkesh would be great

Mister Oragahn
July 14th, 2007, 01:38 PM
it isn't what we need right now. We need battle cruisers, not carriers for low end fighter craft with mediocre pilots.

Ditto.
F-302s are literally pointless in most situations, and we just lack the stuff to engage capital ships.

Seriously, we can't even engage ha'taks yet!

IcyNeko
July 16th, 2007, 08:01 AM
Look. Battlestar Galactica or Pegasus is a pretty huge ship with alot of firepower. No shields, and can handle a firefight.

Daedalus held off a dozen hive ships and support ships in 2x01 for several minutes no problem.

Odyssey and Korelev handled an Ori ship, although did horribly, lasted just as long too.

If anything, now since we have Asgard Tech, and Asgard Shields. I'm sure we can handle ourselves now. I'm pretty sure a carrier should would be best used in Atlantis, where F302s have been proven as a valuable resource to use against the Wraith.

BTW. Remember that the new Asgard Shields held up against the Ori in Unending.

Uhh yeah, let me share a few gems with you.

Battlestars and basestars exist in a universe in which those factions only have ONE ship, and those ships attack other ships with projectile weaponry and fighters. In such a case, fightercraft ARE important. Galactica can't really handle herself in a firefight either. 1:1 is pretty close. 2:1 or worse, and Galactica's screwed. And that's fighting an enemy with projectile weapons.

Stargate's dealing with enemies that have multiple crafts for multiple purposes, and they use energy weapons that fire and have the potential to be more devastating. Fightercraft aren't as useful here because they CAN'T intercept energy beams. In fact, ONLY the humans are using projectile weapons. Slightly out of the league of fighters, no?

Only in specific cases are fighters useful. When they did the bombing run on Anubis's ship, for instance. But that took a lot of planning and a modified 302. By and far, the 302s are generally useless cept for providing enough air support so that the carrier's guns can be pointed elsewhere besides the fighters. But cept for the Odyssey and her ZPM, most fleet carriers wouldn't be able to squeeze off shots from the asgard weapons with much speed. They'd still rely on the rail guns.

It would be much better to design gun cruisers and worry about the fighter carriers later.

McSwift
July 20th, 2007, 05:32 AM
Uhh yeah, let me share a few gems with you.

Battlestars and basestars exist in a universe in which those factions only have ONE ship, and those ships attack other ships with projectile weaponry and fighters. In such a case, fightercraft ARE important. Galactica can't really handle herself in a firefight either. 1:1 is pretty close. 2:1 or worse, and Galactica's screwed. And that's fighting an enemy with projectile weapons.

Stargate's dealing with enemies that have multiple crafts for multiple purposes, and they use energy weapons that fire and have the potential to be more devastating. Fightercraft aren't as useful here because they CAN'T intercept energy beams. In fact, ONLY the humans are using projectile weapons. Slightly out of the league of fighters, no?

Only in specific cases are fighters useful. When they did the bombing run on Anubis's ship, for instance. But that took a lot of planning and a modified 302. By and far, the 302s are generally useless cept for providing enough air support so that the carrier's guns can be pointed elsewhere besides the fighters. But cept for the Odyssey and her ZPM, most fleet carriers wouldn't be able to squeeze off shots from the asgard weapons with much speed. They'd still rely on the rail guns.

It would be much better to design gun cruisers and worry about the fighter carriers later.


Hey There!

I must say that this response is probably the BEST RESPONSE I have ever heard anyone say on Gateworld. Pat on your back and thumbs up!:)

My logic is that yes, the capability of this carrier will probably not work in the MW, especially since we saw:

1) F302 engagement with Ori Sat. Weapon = Pointless

2) F302 engagement with Ori mothership = Pointless

3) F302 engagement with Anubis = Too much planning like you said

4) F302 engagement in Antarctica = Won out but was attacking smaller ships

I noticed that at the ending of S2 of SGA when the F302 engaged the Wraith darts, remember that they only launched 4 F302, whereas the Wraith launched a large squadron of Darts, clearly they got outnumbered!

The F302 was so good that it was able to latch on to the Wraith Hive Ship without being detected. What if the F302 were able to have smaller nukes and attack the hive ships using smaller nukes up close? Wouldn't that be good?

We also saw that in that particular engagement, 1 F302's missile took out a bunch of darts (through secondary explosions).

I say that this craft is only useful in the Pegasus Galaxy where it would be best used against the wraith!

Mister Oragahn
July 20th, 2007, 09:52 AM
They need bombers, not fighters.

Now, considering how small naqahdah enhanced warheads can be, this shouldn't be a problem even for F-302s. They just have to rethink their role.

Have you seen the latest size of gatebusters?

http://www.stargatecaps.com/sga/s3/320/html/firststrike0193.html
http://www.stargatecaps.com/sga/s3/320/html/firststrike0225.html
http://www.stargatecaps.com/sga/s3/320/html/firststrike0226.html
http://www.stargatecaps.com/sga/s3/320/html/firststrike0227.html
http://www.stargatecaps.com/sga/s3/320/html/firststrike0236.html

Sidewinder sized.
Okay, naqahdria is ought to be heavy, but sheesh, a F-302, with a couple of things removed, could almost lift up a stargate into space.

I don't see much problem for a F-302 taking off from a ship located in space. Gravity won't be much of a problem. Besides, look at the size of the rockets on the Horizon MIRV, there's not much difference with a F-302.

Trouble is that F-302 will be easily gunned down. And they lack the hyperdrive that would make them absolute kick ass long range bombers.

The other trouble is that you may try to think about ways to carry F-302s through hyperspace.

Like in Star Wars, with specific docking pods, hyperspace capable, but at this ponit, you'd have to defend them, they'd be sitting ducks, and why simply not go there with the 304?

Or use al'kesh sized bombers, but then they'd be hardly transportable in a 304.

So, huh, the F-302 is very useless.

The only advantage it has is that for a fighter of this size, it's the only one I've seen in many franchises which can carry warheads of such a power.
But beyond that, there's nothing much good in it.

spacecowboy000
July 20th, 2007, 10:40 AM
We should stop expecting things from the 302's that they were not designed to do. They were primarily designed to defend Earth. All that was required of them was short range orbital combat. They weren't designed to be long range (in terms of space) interceptors. They are continually put into situations that they were not designed for and still somewhat successful. However, you are right in the fact that a new fighter needs to be designed and that a bomber class is now a need, not a want.