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    No More Black Holes ?

    If new calculations are correct, the universe just got even stranger. Scientists at Case Western Reserve University in Cleveland, Ohio, have constructed mathematical formulas that conclude black holes cannot exist. The findings--if correct--could revolutionize astrophysics and resolve a paradox that has perplexed physicists for 4 decades.

    On the surface, a black hole seems like a simple concept. It's a point in space where gravity grows infinitely strong. At a particular distance from the center of the hole--called the event horizon--gravity is already so strong not even light can escape. So material falls in never to be seen again. Calculations support this theory, but they also support something stranger. In 1974, theoretical physicist Stephen Hawking showed that thanks to quantum mechanics matter can escape black holes in a tricky way. By random chance, a particle-antiparticle pair can flit into existence straddling the event horizon. One partner falls into the hole, while the other just barely makes it free. Because of this effect, dubbed Hawking radiation, a black hole slowly evaporates, so that anything that enters is eventually released over billions or even trillions of years. But how can black holes be both airtight and leaky?

    Physicist Lawrence Krauss and Case Western Reserve colleagues think they have found the answer to the paradox. In a paper accepted for publication in Physical Review D, they have constructed a lengthy mathematical formula that shows, in effect, black holes can't form at all. The key involves the relativistic effect of time, Krauss explains. As Einstein demonstrated in his Theory of General Relativity, a passenger inside a spaceship traveling toward a black hole would feel the ship accelerating, while an outside observer would see the ship slow down. When the ship reached the event horizon, it would appear to stop, staying there forever and never falling in toward oblivion. In effect, Krauss says, time effectively stops at that point, meaning time is infinite for black holes. If black holes radiate away their mass over time, as Hawking showed, then they should evaporate before they even form, Krauss says. It would be like pouring water into a glass that has no bottom. In essence, physicists have been arguing over a trick question for 40 years.

    Asked why then the universe nevertheless seems to be full of black holes, Krauss replies, "How do you know they're black holes?" No one has actually seen a black hole, he says, and anything with a tremendous amount of gravity--such as the supermassive remnants of stars--could exert effects similar to those researchers have blamed on black holes. "All of our calculations suggest this is quite plausible," Krauss says.

    Not so fast, says astronomer Kimberly Weaver of NASA's Goddard Space Flight Center in Greenbelt, Maryland. Although she appreciates the physics the Case Western Reserve team is describing, the problem is "we have never observed any events that would back this up." At the site of the supermassive black hole at the center of the Milky Way, for example, she says astronomers routinely observe what looks like interstellar material disappearing without a trace. Also, no one has yet detected Hawking radiation, which would be prerequisite evidence for black hole evaporation, Weaver says.

    http://sciencenow.sciencemag.org/cgi...ull/2007/621/1

    #2
    Black holes, worm holes, beurocratic loopsholes.... Everybody is always arguing over their existance and very nature...

    From my thoughts, I have concluded that black holes never fully form. At a certain point in their formation, the matter would be moving so slowly because of the time distortion of gravity, they would essentialy stop. Unless, of course, gravity is a sluggish force and takes time to build up... None of it makes any sense. They are what gives a universe of amazing logical predictability a paradox that cannot be explained.

    Basically, don't even bother trying to prove or disprove them. Just let us watch our scifi.

    Comment


      #3
      I agree that black holes have been used to plug in a lot of theories about where the Universe has been and is going. But even if what we think are black holes don't actually exist, I doubt it would change the nature of the Universe very much on a whole grand scale.

      Supernovaes will still occur and whatever is left in the voids we call black holes afterwards will still behave the same as they always do when it comes to affecting everything around them. This just means that what will happen inside the event horizon will be different.Outside we'll still orbit the Sun, the Solar System will still float around the Milky Way, the Milky Way will still float around the Local Group, etc. as normal.

      There are still plenty of mysteries left out there to try to figure out. What is dark matter? Where do the dim red dwarf stars end up after they fade out of visible view? No more black holes doesn't change what else there is to solve about the Universe.

      And scientists will still have work.
      StarshineRoxie
      A woman that allows herself the balance of cool wisdom and strength of heart.
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      Comment


        #4
        Originally posted by starshineRoxie View Post
        I agree that black holes have been used to plug in a lot of theories about where the Universe has been and is going. But even if what we think are black holes don't actually exist, I doubt it would change the nature of the Universe very much on a whole grand scale.

        Supernovaes will still occur and whatever is left in the voids we call black holes afterwards will still behave the same as they always do when it comes to affecting everything around them. This just means that what will happen inside the event horizon will be different.Outside we'll still orbit the Sun, the Solar System will still float around the Milky Way, the Milky Way will still float around the Local Group, etc. as normal.

        There are still plenty of mysteries left out there to try to figure out. What is dark matter? Where do the dim red dwarf stars end up after they fade out of visible view? No more black holes doesn't change what else there is to solve about the Universe.

        And scientists will still have work.
        Us being wrong about black holes won't change a darn thing. The universe exists the way it does regardless of our understanding. Either way, if Nasa makes BIG headway I'm sure this will be allll over the news rather than just a side story.
        www.theamericanright.com

        A website by the people, for the people.

        Comment


          #5
          Short answer: Hawking Radiation doesn't work. It runs headlong into the wall that is General Relativity. Weather or not particle-antiparticle pairs can form near the event horizon of a black hole is a moot point when you consider that, due to the extreme time dilation near the event horizon of a black hole, the antiparticle will never actually CROSS the event horizon for the same reason that the spacecraft given in the scientist's example won't cross the event horizon-

          That being, as one approaches the event horizon of a black hole, due to time dilation, you will appear to go slower relative to a stationary observer outside the black hole's field of influence. This means, given ANY finite time frame, no particle will cross the event horizon of a black hole.

          Comment


            #6
            I do think we have seen black holes. Black holes emit x-ray raidiation witch we can pick up. if we see a large source of it, it could be a black hole.
            Also, the center of a galaxy must be a black hole, what else can hold the galaxy togther with gravity.

            Comment


              #7
              Originally posted by Starxgate View Post
              If new calculations are correct, the universe just got even stranger. Scientists at Case Western Reserve University in Cleveland, Ohio, have constructed mathematical formulas that conclude black holes cannot exist. The findings--if correct--could revolutionize astrophysics and resolve a paradox that has perplexed physicists for 4 decades.

              On the surface, a black hole seems like a simple concept. It's a point in space where gravity grows infinitely strong. At a particular distance from the center of the hole--called the event horizon--gravity is already so strong not even light can escape. So material falls in never to be seen again. Calculations support this theory, but they also support something stranger. In 1974, theoretical physicist Stephen Hawking showed that thanks to quantum mechanics matter can escape black holes in a tricky way. By random chance, a particle-antiparticle pair can flit into existence straddling the event horizon. One partner falls into the hole, while the other just barely makes it free. Because of this effect, dubbed Hawking radiation, a black hole slowly evaporates, so that anything that enters is eventually released over billions or even trillions of years. But how can black holes be both airtight and leaky?

              Physicist Lawrence Krauss and Case Western Reserve colleagues think they have found the answer to the paradox. In a paper accepted for publication in Physical Review D, they have constructed a lengthy mathematical formula that shows, in effect, black holes can't form at all. The key involves the relativistic effect of time, Krauss explains. As Einstein demonstrated in his Theory of General Relativity, a passenger inside a spaceship traveling toward a black hole would feel the ship accelerating, while an outside observer would see the ship slow down. When the ship reached the event horizon, it would appear to stop, staying there forever and never falling in toward oblivion. In effect, Krauss says, time effectively stops at that point, meaning time is infinite for black holes. If black holes radiate away their mass over time, as Hawking showed, then they should evaporate before they even form, Krauss says. It would be like pouring water into a glass that has no bottom. In essence, physicists have been arguing over a trick question for 40 years.

              Asked why then the universe nevertheless seems to be full of black holes, Krauss replies, "How do you know they're black holes?" No one has actually seen a black hole, he says, and anything with a tremendous amount of gravity--such as the supermassive remnants of stars--could exert effects similar to those researchers have blamed on black holes. "All of our calculations suggest this is quite plausible," Krauss says.

              Not so fast, says astronomer Kimberly Weaver of NASA's Goddard Space Flight Center in Greenbelt, Maryland. Although she appreciates the physics the Case Western Reserve team is describing, the problem is "we have never observed any events that would back this up." At the site of the supermassive black hole at the center of the Milky Way, for example, she says astronomers routinely observe what looks like interstellar material disappearing without a trace. Also, no one has yet detected Hawking radiation, which would be prerequisite evidence for black hole evaporation, Weaver says.

              http://sciencenow.sciencemag.org/cgi...ull/2007/621/1
              Wow........if that's true that will throw a whole lot of Sci-fi stories out the window. lol.
              Please do me a huge favour and help me be with the love of my life.

              Comment


                #8
                Fascinating, but I don't see it as proving or disproving anything. The "black holes" whatever you call them will still exist and we will continue to find more of them so the title of the thread is misleading, basically all your doing is changing the name of a black hole which really doesn't mean anything. It is kind of like the demotion of Pluto to dwarf-planet. Pluto is still Pluto nothing has changed about it except our perception of it which is constantly changing for all things.
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                Comment


                  #9
                  So to an outside observer a ship entering the black-hole would simply stop. Thats because light cannot escape the event horizon, so they can't see the ship being sucked in and crunched.

                  But that doesn't mean time has stopped at the black hole. Just because OUTSIDE OBSERVERS can't see activity past the event horizon, it doesn't mean its not happening.

                  I guess I don't understand their argument.

                  Comment


                    #10
                    Originally posted by Londo Molari View Post
                    So to an outside observer a ship entering the black-hole would simply stop. Thats because light cannot escape the event horizon, so they can't see the ship being sucked in and crunched.

                    But that doesn't mean time has stopped at the black hole. Just because OUTSIDE OBSERVERS can't see activity past the event horizon, it doesn't mean its not happening.

                    I guess I don't understand their argument.
                    That's right it just appears that time has stopped to outside observers but it hasn't. These researchers say that it does though.

                    If black holes radiate away their mass over time, as Hawking showed, then they should evaporate before they even form, Krauss says. It would be like pouring water into a glass that has no bottom. In essence, physicists have been arguing over a trick question for 40 years.
                    This is the part that I find a little perplexing. If their is infinite time then matter would be in the process of being sucked in forever and the black hole would be evaporating for ever at the same time. The matter has to be sucked to the event horizon for it to escape evaporate whatever you want to say and not all of it evaporates. So the rate of evaporation may not be more than the rate of matter coming into the black hole. I don't see how they conclude it would evaporate before it is actually formed. Like they point out at the end as well black hole evaporation has never been observed.
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                    Comment


                      #11
                      Why can't someone build a Bistromathic drive and go find out?
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                      Comment


                        #12
                        Einstien created equations relating to the universe that contained black holes in the fabric of the equation. Relativity and quantim physics both state that there are black holes. They even lead the equations to ways of thinking that humans can't comprehend. Black holes do exist, they just might be a little advanced for us.

                        Comment


                          #13
                          Originally posted by Arania View Post
                          Short answer: Hawking Radiation doesn't work. It runs headlong into the wall that is General Relativity. Weather or not particle-antiparticle pairs can form near the event horizon of a black hole is a moot point when you consider that, due to the extreme time dilation near the event horizon of a black hole, the antiparticle will never actually CROSS the event horizon for the same reason that the spacecraft given in the scientist's example won't cross the event horizon-

                          That being, as one approaches the event horizon of a black hole, due to time dilation, you will appear to go slower relative to a stationary observer outside the black hole's field of influence. This means, given ANY finite time frame, no particle will cross the event horizon of a black hole.
                          But if no particle will cross the event horizon of a black hole, from the outside as well as from the inside, then how could the black hole have formed in the first place, if not by sucking the matter in?
                          If Algeria introduced a resolution declaring that the earth was flat and that Israel had flattened it, it would pass by a vote of 164 to 13 with 26 abstentions.- Abba Eban.

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