Orion vs. Odyssey(upgrade)

[Evil_Genius_McKay]

Ok here is a vs. thread that stays in the Stargate Universe. A fully operational Orion vs. an Odyssey with new upgrades. I'm going to go with the Orion on this one. Since both ships are from the same universe this should be some fairly good comparisons.

[Ranlier]

Does each ship have fully competent pilots for the technology at hand?

[Evil_Genius_McKay]

yes

[immhotep]

I would say Oddesey actually. If it has the merlin cloak it should be able to phase until the run out of drones. And even with no cloak. A ZPM powered shield which is damn near ancient as we could get. Plus weapons able to take out an OMS in 6 hits. A normal Aurora doesnt have a ZPM like atlantis so i doubt would stand up to much. We know Oddesey with a ZPM is more powerful than an Aurora because in Echoes the pilot guy was on an Aurora, the solar flare destroyed that ship and the Oddesey survived. Could we survive a drone attack? Maybe, is this in a couple of years, because by then we might have thought about it, in light of the asurian threat adn found a way to make our shields drone proof with our new technology. In which case we would win. Even if we dont do that, i still think wed put up a good fight, if we kept moving and used our rail guns to take out the drones or beam them away. Also we know we can beam on to Auroras so we can nuke the Aurora the same way we did to hives first time round. They dont have a countermeasure and we know that..

[IcyNeko]

Yeah. Tough call. The Ori ships, on one hand, represent tech level prior to the Ancients leaving Alterra. They've had a while to advance. Lantien tech is 10,000 years old, so it's pretty new. So using Ori as a point of comparison might not be accurate... :|

[immhotep]

But on the other hand we have beamed on and off a Aurora before, we know they dont have countermeasures even with shields up. Because we beamed them out when they were still shielded in no mans land. Their shields were up but couldnt fire so went out. If thats the case a Gatebuster would obliterate the Orion.
With Beaming a nuke, if we were quick enough i think we could get off enough hits and be powerful enough to at least make an Orion damaged. If we hyperspaced in, started firing and tried beaming a nuke off at once. i think wed win. Lets face it the Aurora class only has drones. And the PG drones explode on Impact, they arent phased like the ones in TLC so they might not get through our shields. If they impact our shields and dont get through then we have one without a doubt. If they went through we might have more of a problem. But we could use rail guns to intercept them, if they can take out darts and not phase through then us hitting them with Rail gun shells should be able to defend against it. In which case our shields wouldnt be touched. With a ZPM boosting Asgard weapons i can see us putting up a major fight against almost any ship.

[Jimbo-DR]

I have seen and thought about a lot of evidence recently which points to the Ancients have a distinct military superiority to the Ori. Even though Odyssey managed to destroy 2 Ori Motherships, I would still give any fight to a fully powered Ancient Warship.

[Jimbo-DR]

I would say Oddesey actually. If it has the merlin cloak it should be able to phase until the run out of drones. And even with no cloak. A ZPM powered shield which is damn near ancient as we could get. Plus weapons able to take out an OMS in 6 hits. A normal Aurora doesnt have a ZPM like atlantis so i doubt would stand up to much. We know Oddesey with a ZPM is more powerful than an Aurora because in Echoes the pilot guy was on an Aurora, the solar flare destroyed that ship and the Oddesey survived. Could we survive a drone attack? Maybe, is this in a couple of years, because by then we might have thought about it, in light of the asurian threat adn found a way to make our shields drone proof with our new technology. In which case we would win. Even if we dont do that, i still think wed put up a good fight, if we kept moving and used our rail guns to take out the drones or beam them away. Also we know we can beam on to Auroras so we can nuke the Aurora the same way we did to hives first time round. They dont have a countermeasure and we know that..

Thats incorrect. The Orions shields dropped when they fired the Drones. They didn't have enough power to use both at once, and when they launched Drones their shields went down.

[Evil_Genius_McKay]

Yeah. Tough call. The Ori ships, on one hand, represent tech level prior to the Ancients leaving Alterra. They've had a while to advance. Lantien tech is 10,000 years old, so it's pretty new. So using Ori as a point of comparison might not be accurate... :|

True

One hypothetical question I have is that if indeed our ships(Tau'ri) could beat Ancient Lantean ships, then are the Tau'ri ready to take on the mantle of a spacefaring empire? If we could mass produce Deddy class ships like the Odyssey the Tau'ri would definately be the main power in the Stargate Universe, because I'm sure the Ori will be neutralized soon. Not that the Tau'ri aren't already one of the main powers

To me if the Tau'ri with or without help from other races could beat Lantean tech then it kind of cheapens the whole mythos around the ancients.

[immhotep]

The mythos around the ancients hasnt been cheaped already? Sheppard and Mkcay both said the Anceints are just over ambitious arrogent failures. The mythology surrounding them is probley just that a mythology and not really that accurate. The anceints we have met who are alive are pretty annoying, im indoctrinated to love them because of 10 years of absolutly drooling at anything ancient but the more we learn the less they are amazing.
The Ascended while cool and amazing are pretty much the same, they are failures, irresponsible and pathetic, its only those who rebel that have ever done any good for our galaxy. They have let the Orii steam rolelr us, the could have wiped out 3 of thier own failures of life, the wraith, replicators and Anubis yet they standby and watch as billion of people are wiped out for something they have left for other people to clean up. People are not able too, they are arrogent and ignorant, they are the only race who can clean up thier own mess but because of thier "rules" they are as evil as the creatures they left behind, the blood of the wraith and replicators are on the ancients hands for leaving them and not dealing with thier own mistakes when they got the power. Im not saying they should fix everything but cleaning up your own mess is a moral obligation they should have learned in 50million years.

[Evil_Genius_McKay]

The mythos around the ancients hasnt been cheaped already? Sheppard and Mkcay both said the Anceints are just over ambitious arrogent failures. The mythology surrounding them is probley just that a mythology and not really that accurate. The anceints we have met who are alive are pretty annoying, im indoctrinated to love them because of 10 years of absolutly drooling at anything ancient but the more we learn the less they are amazing.
The Ascended while cool and amazing are pretty much the same, they are failures, irresponsible and pathetic, its only those who rebel that have ever done any good for our galaxy. They have let the Orii steam rolelr us, the could have wiped out 3 of thier own failures of life, the wraith, replicators and Anubis yet they standby and watch as billion of people are wiped out for something they have left for other people to clean up. People are not able too, they are arrogent and ignorant, they are the only race who can clean up thier own mess but because of thier "rules" they are as evil as the creatures they left behind, the blood of the wraith and replicators are on the ancients hands for leaving them and not dealing with thier own mistakes when they got the power. Im not saying they should fix everything but cleaning up your own mess is a moral obligation they should have learned in 50million years.

I'm inclined to agree with you there. I feel kind of the same way. But like you said after 10 yrs of them being built up as the greatest thing ever on the shows it is hard to look down on them, and they do have some really great achievements.

After all though 50 million years old or not they are still human and humans make mistakes.

[jds1982]

We know Oddesey with a ZPM is more powerful than an Aurora because in Echoes the pilot guy was on an Aurora, the solar flare destroyed that ship and the Oddesey survived.

Did they say he was on an Aurora? I don't think they ever mentioned what type of ship he was on.

Lets face it the Aurora class only has drones. And the PG drones explode on Impact, they arent phased like the ones in TLC so they might not get through our shields.

Really? What do you base any of this on? We've seen what, two Aurora classes? The only time we've seen one in battle was in No Man's Land, which was hardly a good demonstration of it's abilities because it wasn't fully functional. We also see the Orion's drones rip through the Hive ship multiple times NOT exploding on impact, so is it really that Pegasus drones don't phase through things or that the person controlling the drones used them in the "explode" setting? The only time we've seen Pegasus Galaxy drones go up against shields was when the Asurans shot at the Puddle Jumper. Maybe the Ancients built safeguards in so that their drones knew not to attack their ships, or maybe Ancient shields are immune to drones, we don't know. All we know is that in one case drones didn't go through an Ancient shield, but that does not mean they won't go through other shields.

[Evil_Genius_McKay]

Did they say he was on an Aurora? I don't think they ever mentioned what type of ship he was on.



Really? What do you base any of this on? We've seen what, two Aurora classes? The only time we've seen one in battle was in No Man's Land, which was hardly a good demonstration of it's abilities because it wasn't fully functional. We also see the Orion's drones rip through the Hive ship multiple times NOT exploding on impact, so is it really that Pegasus drones don't phase through things or that the person controlling the drones used them in the "explode" setting? The only time we've seen Pegasus Galaxy drones go up against shields was when the Asurans shot at the Puddle Jumper. Maybe the Ancients built safeguards in so that their drones knew not to attack their ships, or maybe Ancient shields are immune to drones, we don't know. All we know is that in one case drones didn't go through an Ancient shield, but that does not mean they won't go through other shields.

Nice observations on shields, kind of what I was trying to get at about the Ancient Satlellite weapon in another thread. Ancient wepons are largely untested against shields.

[Integrabyte]

But on the other hand we have beamed on and off a Aurora before, we know they dont have countermeasures even with shields up. Because we beamed them out when they were still shielded in no mans land. Their shields were up but couldnt fire so went out. If thats the case a Gatebuster would obliterate the Orion...

Their shields were up ONLY when they exited hyperspace. As seen in the first screen shot I attached. In the second shot, Zelenka, diverts power from the shields to the drones, therefore, the first salvo sacrificed the shields. You can already see how Orion takes damage whilst firing the drones. As soon as target one is destroyed, target two focuses on Orion and inflicts massive damage. The screen shots clearly show this. Caldwell had an easy task because ORION was dead in the water. With no shields beaming was a snap.

But we could use rail guns to intercept them, if they can take out darts and not phase through then us hitting them with Rail gun shells should be able to defend against it.

Suicidal darts cannot intercept the drones and you think rail guns will? Check out the last picture to see how drones scatter in order to avoid the darts. Mate, you need to pay closer attention to the drones. They DO NOT EXPLODE on IMPACT. Look at the attachments and you will see they pass through the ship like a hot knife through butter. Pay attention to the second to last picture. See how the drones surround the hives and return to finish what they started? They did the same thing with Anubis's fleet. It took ORION a couple seconds to finish off the first hive. With shields up ORION can KO several hives without suffering damage.

Did they say he was on an Aurora? I don't think they ever mentioned what type of ship he was on.

Ship was called Adarus/Adaris(pick one ) and it was a science vessel. (Echoes 31mins:25s)


Odyssey is a good ship with many new upgrades, however, mano-a-mano with a fully working Orion powered by a ZPM and with a full drone complement. Odyssey may have problems.

[Wraith_Boy]

I would say Oddesey actually. If it has the merlin cloak it should be able to phase until the run out of drones. And even with no cloak. A ZPM powered shield which is damn near ancient as we could get. Plus weapons able to take out an OMS in 6 hits. A normal Aurora doesnt have a ZPM like atlantis so i doubt would stand up to much. We know Oddesey with a ZPM is more powerful than an Aurora because in Echoes the pilot guy was on an Aurora, the solar flare destroyed that ship and the Oddesey survived. Could we survive a drone attack? Maybe, is this in a couple of years, because by then we might have thought about it, in light of the asurian threat adn found a way to make our shields drone proof with our new technology. In which case we would win. Even if we dont do that, i still think wed put up a good fight, if we kept moving and used our rail guns to take out the drones or beam them away. Also we know we can beam on to Auroras so we can nuke the Aurora the same way we did to hives first time round. They dont have a countermeasure and we know that..

By default it doesn't have the Merlin phase technology, so I don't think that counts among the upgrades.

As for the power of the Aurora because of 'Echoes' thing:

SHEPPARD: Adaris is a ship we found in the Ancient database.

McKAY: It’s an Ancient science vessel. About fifteen thousand years ago, it ran into some trouble. The entire crew was killed except for the pilot.

It was a science ship mentioned in that ep, not a warship, meaning it wasn't an 'Aurora' class!

But on the other hand we have beamed on and off a Aurora before, we know they dont have countermeasures even with shields up. Because we beamed them out when they were still shielded in no mans land. Their shields were up but couldnt fire so went out. If thats the case a Gatebuster would obliterate the Orion.
With Beaming a nuke, if we were quick enough i think we could get off enough hits and be powerful enough to at least make an Orion damaged. If we hyperspaced in, started firing and tried beaming a nuke off at once. i think wed win. Lets face it the Aurora class only has drones. And the PG drones explode on Impact, they arent phased like the ones in TLC so they might not get through our shields. If they impact our shields and dont get through then we have one without a doubt. If they went through we might have more of a problem. But we could use rail guns to intercept them, if they can take out darts and not phase through then us hitting them with Rail gun shells should be able to defend against it. In which case our shields wouldnt be touched. With a ZPM boosting Asgard weapons i can see us putting up a major fight against almost any ship.

From 'No Man's Land':

CALDWELL: You'll have thirteen hours en route to get your weapons and shields online, but we need to leave right now to make this window. Are you go or no go?

LORNE: We're having a little difficulty transferring power from shields to weapons.

ZELENKA (pulling himself free): We sacrificed our shield capability for our first salvo! This ship is going to blow any moment, Major!

They diverted shield power to enable them to fire their weapons. By the time they were beamed off, there was no shields up! There is no need to countermeasures for a shielded target, simply because Asgard beaming technology cannot go through anything with a shield. Wraith needed to develop them because they didn't have the luxury of shields.

From 'Revelations':

O'NEILL
Why don't you just beam him out?
HEIMDALL
Although my sensors can penetrate the Goa'uld shields, my transportation device cannot.

If Asgard can't beam through crappy Goa'uld shields, then there is no way in hell their transporters can beam through shielded Ancient shields!

As to the original question. If the Aurora gets it's Drones fired & they hit the Odyssey, then I believe it'll be game over! If the 304 could get in quickly, then fire the energy weapons immediately. I think it may have the upper hand. However if 100's or 1000's of Drones are coming towards them, I doubt they'd be able to stand up & take them. So if Drones get launched, they need to jump back into HS.

Aurora would win if it gets it's Drones off. If the 304 can get it's energy weapons in, then it may have the upper hand. It simply depends on what kind of weapons they have. The phazers they got in 'Unending' took out an Ori ship in the space of a few shots. However they may have ben designed specifically to target the Ori shields & may not be as effective against other shielded targets!