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MacGuyverThis
June 13th, 2007, 09:49 AM
Now that Would be a fight .Both ships have shields .Both ships are fast and maneuvable and armored .

Defiant :Quantum and Photon Torpedos Tri barrel burst Phasers ,Ablative Armor and a cloak .Defiant was Design to take on Borg Cubes and other ship

Daedulas : Conventional Missles, MK 5 Nukes , Multi Rail Guns ,Fighters, Shields ,Daedulas was design for Ha Taek Ships in mind .


Both ships are pretty even match .This would be a tough call here . The Defiant can Cloak and fire .But Daedulas has Fighters that can be launch to cover her . Photon and Quantum Torpedo are more accurate then conventional missle and nukes .

Daedulas is do to get upgrades after USAF as done some study of the upgrades to Odessey .I'm sure they will com up with some type Beam weapons for the other Daedulas Class ships.

This fight I'd have to give to the Captians .Capt.Sisko or Col.Caldwell .Both have some good backgrounds ,

Sisko Survivor of Wolf 359, Lead the Assualt to retake DS9 ,and the was involve in the final Attack on Cardasia Prime .

Caldwell lead the the rescue of Atlantis against the Wraith ,has had several combat campaign against the Wraith .

I might have to give this to Sisko more Comabt Experience .But Caldwell no push over either ..


Makes me wonder ....USS Daedulas vs USS Voyager or USS Odessey

Now what do you think ?

Phantom6
June 13th, 2007, 10:05 AM
Now that Would be a fight .Both ships have shields .Both ships are fast and maneuvable and armored .

Defiant :Quantum and Photon Torpedos Tri barrel burst Phasers ,Ablative Armor and a cloak .Defiant was Design to take on Borg Cubes and other ship

Daedulas : Conventional Missles, MK 5 Nukes , Multi Rail Guns ,Fighters, Shields ,Daedulas was design for Ha Taek Ships in mind .


Both ships are pretty even match .This would be a tough call here . The Defiant can Cloak and fire .But Daedulas has Fighters that can be launch to cover her . Photon and Quantum Torpedo are more accurate then conventional missle and nukes .

Daedulas is do to get upgrades after USAF as done some study of the upgrades to Odessey .I'm sure they will com up with some type Beam weapons for the other Daedulas Class ships.

This fight I'd have to give to the Captians .Capt.Sisko or Col.Caldwell .Both have some good backgrounds ,

Sisko Survivor of Wolf 359, Lead the Assualt to retake DS9 ,and the was involve in the final Attack on Cardasia Prime .

Caldwell lead the the rescue of Atlantis against the Wraith ,has had several combat campaign against the Wraith .

I might have to give this to Sisko more Comabt Experience .But Caldwell no push over either ..


Makes me wonder ....USS Daedulas vs USS Voyager or USS Odessey

Now what do you think ?




I gotta give it to the Defiant. Sisko's not above decloaking, launching an attack and recloaking.

Really all the Daedalus has in this fight is size, Shields (Asgard shields appear more durable than federation) and the F302's, which in reality the 302's aren't that much of an advantage, the Defiant does posses conventional phasers (Beams) and the 302's aren't shielded.


And remember, Quantum Torpedoes utilize Zero Point Energy to enhance their explosive yield.

IcyNeko
June 13th, 2007, 10:05 AM
You're inane to be confusing the SG-1 Cruiser "Daedalus", which they refer on the show as the USAF Daedalus, with the USS Daedalus, a front-runner design starship that came before the USS Enterprise ( http://memory-alpha.org/en/wiki/Daedalus_class ) in a section where we just got done telling someone that these cross-universe VERSUS threads are retarded.

WE HAVE NO PLACE TO COMPARE THE OUTPUT OF ASGARD SHIELDS AGAINST FEDERATION EQUIVALENTS SO STOP COMPARING STARGATE TO ANY OTHER UNIVERSE AND PUT THIS THREAD IN THE GAMES FORUM WHERE OTHER GORG THREADS BELONG.

Now, if you were comparing the Defiant-class to the Daedalus-class from the star trek universe... I'd say your thread is retarded still. The Daedalus-class is from the 22nd century and, by the 24th century, is far outdated.

In other words, stop posting.

s09119
June 13th, 2007, 10:08 AM
You're inane to be confusing the SG-1 Cruiser "Daedalus", which they refer on the show as the USAF Daedalus, with the USS Daedalus, a front-runner design starship that came before the USS Enterprise ( http://memory-alpha.org/en/wiki/Daedalus_class ) in a section where we just got done telling someone that these cross-universe VERSUS threads are retarded.

And yet, ANOTHER one pops up! That must surely mean that not everyone is ignorant of other people's likes and dislikes like you! So I suggest leave him alone :D

I vote for the Daedalus. Her shields are VERY strong, and as powerful as the Defiant's missiles are, the Deadalus could beam a nuke onboard to end it.

Buba uognarf
June 13th, 2007, 10:11 AM
The Defiant would rape the Deadalus. Rail guns would have no effect and the Defiant could dodge and withstand the majority of nukes the deadalus fires.

Captain Sisko is the most decorated combat officer in Starfleet! He has a huge amount of experience compared to Caldwell.

Buba uognarf
June 13th, 2007, 10:12 AM
And yet, ANOTHER one pops up! That must surely mean that not everyone is ignorant of other people's likes and dislikes like you! So I suggest leave him alone :D

I vote for the Daedalus. Her shields are VERY strong, and as powerful as the Defiant's missiles are, the Deadalus could beam a nuke onboard to end it.

What makes you think the deadalus can beam through the Defiants shields?

IcyNeko
June 13th, 2007, 10:12 AM
And yet, ANOTHER one pops up! That must surely mean that not everyone is ignorant of other people's likes and dislikes like you! So I suggest leave him alone :D

Post this gorg crap in the games thread where it belongs.

Evil_Genius_McKay
June 13th, 2007, 11:23 AM
Not another one! I'm with the people who are saying you can't compare shield strengths between different universes. That being said Defiant would kick the crap out the Daedalus!

It seems like any fight a Daedalus class might win always comes to can they beam through shields or not?

In Star Trek you can't so I'm guessing they couldn't beam nukes on board.

Jimbo-DR
June 13th, 2007, 11:42 AM
I'm thinking the Defiant wouldn't put up as much of a fight as people think. Federation starships shields have NEVER been very good at keeping all energy outside the shield arc, and the Defiants shielding is already weaker than most capital ships. It was designed to fight the Borg, but its an attack ship, and its shielding leaves something to be desired. Against the Daedalus it would need to cause critical damage extremely fast, and even with its firepower the Daedalus' shields have proven themselves to be extremely strong.

Evil_Genius_McKay
June 13th, 2007, 12:08 PM
Again how do you compare shields between two different universes? The Defiant has ablative armor as well. It had good enough defense to hold out against a Borg Cube.

the_dark_light
June 13th, 2007, 12:09 PM
Ships from alternate sci-fi shows don't compare. They all use different interpretations of The Theory Of Hollywood Physics

Jimbo-DR
June 13th, 2007, 12:14 PM
Again how do you compare shields between two different universes? The Defiant has ablative armor as well. It had good enough defense to hold out against a Borg Cube.

No, it doesn't. We've never seen the Defiants shields stand up to the Borg well, and it was already canon that Defiant was designed for heavy damage output, but it cannot withstand sustained combat with the enemies it was meant to engage. In first contact it gets ripped up pretty bad just by some Borg phaser fire.

IcyNeko
June 13th, 2007, 12:18 PM
The defiant-class destroyer was more of a quick-strike ship with warp engines more powerful than the space-frame was capable of dealing with, hence why the prototype was mothballed.

What was said about the Federation shields is correct. Star Trek shields seem to be more of a "percentage coverage" and "likelihood of getting struck by laser fire" indicator. Especially in the games, when a ship's shields drop anywhere below 90%, the hull starts getting scorched.

Evil_Genius_McKay
June 13th, 2007, 12:30 PM
No, it doesn't. We've never seen the Defiants shields stand up to the Borg well, and it was already canon that Defiant was designed for heavy damage output, but it cannot withstand sustained combat with the enemies it was meant to engage. In first contact it gets ripped up pretty bad just by some Borg phaser fire.

Yeah that is after how long of an engagement? Many of the other ships were already wiped out including the admiral's ship which you can't tell me was anything less than a Galaxy at any rate it was probably a ship of the line. Yeah compared to say a Sovereign class then yeah it has week shields, compared to a lot of 24th century vessels it has weeker shields, but we are talking about the Defiant, a 24th century tech ship, built by the Federation which has the technical knowledge of how many races? Compaired to a 21st century vessel using the hi-technology of one race the Asgards. I love the Asgard they are one of my favorite races in Stargate and one of the highest tech levels in Stargate but put them up against the knowledge of all of those races some which have been around for quite some time themselve before the 24th century.

IcyNeko
June 13th, 2007, 12:38 PM
To show you some cross-universe issues....

Neutronium, which is the basis of Asgard technology and integrated into their ship armor and all other things Asgard... as well as replicators... exists in Star Trek as well.

In Star Trek, Neutronium is the hardest substance they know, and is impervious to phaser fire. You can't destroy Star Trek's Neutronium hulls.

But you can destroy an asgard ship just fine.

See a problem?

Womble
June 13th, 2007, 12:41 PM
Now that Would be a fight .Both ships have shields .Both ships are fast and maneuvable and armored .

Defiant :Quantum and Photon Torpedos Tri barrel burst Phasers ,Ablative Armor and a cloak .Defiant was Design to take on Borg Cubes and other ship

Daedulas : Conventional Missles, MK 5 Nukes , Multi Rail Guns ,Fighters, Shields ,Daedulas was design for Ha Taek Ships in mind .
Nope. A Barby doll vs. Godzilla- now THAT would have been a fight.

Or, better, yet, anyone posting crossover comparisons of ships vs. the Russian olympic judo team. I'd so buy a ticket to that one.

s09119
June 13th, 2007, 12:42 PM
To show you some cross-universe issues....

Neutronium, which is the basis of Asgard technology and integrated into their ship armor and all other things Asgard... as well as replicators... exists in Star Trek as well.

In Star Trek, Neutronium is the hardest substance they know, and is impervious to phaser fire. You can't destroy Star Trek's Neutronium hulls.

But you can destroy an asgard ship just fine.

See a problem?

So what...? We want to compare them and we're willing to overlook the differences. You're not. So leave...?

IcyNeko
June 13th, 2007, 12:52 PM
So what...? We want to compare them and we're willing to overlook the differences. You're not. So leave...?

Clearly you lack comprehension of HOW one goes about comparing things. You have to have some sort of universal basis upon which you can compare everything in the universe. Firepower and effectiveness in combat and defensive capabilities... the things that are teh basis of the "who would win" comparison... can't be quantized without a universal point that is in both series.

Laws of Physics doesnt' always work since Hollywood rewrites theirs. So let's go with the periodic table. Hence why I brought up Neutronium. By that point alone, I just solved your question now and forever. I ended any future need to compare star trek and stargate. :P

But if you ignore that fact, you could go on and on fanwanking about "ZOMG TEH LAZORS ARE SO POWARFOOL BOOM BOOM PEW PEW".


Or, better, yet, anyone posting crossover comparisons of ships vs. the Russian olympic judo team. I'd so buy a ticket to that one.

YESSSSSSSSSSSSS! I wish to pursue this to the Nth degree. So say the Russians take steroids and are drinking vodka while punching the hull of the Prometheus...

MacGuyverThis
June 13th, 2007, 01:32 PM
Take it easy it's just a fantasy thing ok thats how you come up with scifi stuff you imagine what could happen if you combine stuff from other shows.Help they got beam tech from star trek even the Replicators and I don't mean the bugs .This is why we watch scifi to see what we can imagine to see if the tech from another show will work for another show .Because if I was a guy in the StarGate Universe I'd be using Star Trek as a Template for ideas for the SGC and other Scifi shows .

Hell I'd be seeing if I could make a lightsaber with the asgard tech .I'd even be tring to make my own Gundam if I could You may like the VS thing but others do it's just fun .

So relax and if you don't like this look at something else.but this is stil a free country do what you feel you need to do .

IcyNeko
June 13th, 2007, 01:55 PM
do what you feel you need to do .

How is this different from what I've been doing? :)

PG15
June 13th, 2007, 02:02 PM
If the Deady had the upgrades, the Defiant is toast.

If not...well, the Defiant can easily dodge missles and nukes; I doubt the railgun fire would do much of anything, and the fighters are worth nothing.

The Defiant will win, eventually, as long as it keeps firing at the Asgard shield. It'll deplete it...some day.

Jimbo-DR
June 13th, 2007, 02:25 PM
The defiant-class destroyer was more of a quick-strike ship with warp engines more powerful than the space-frame was capable of dealing with, hence why the prototype was mothballed.

What was said about the Federation shields is correct. Star Trek shields seem to be more of a "percentage coverage" and "likelihood of getting struck by laser fire" indicator. Especially in the games, when a ship's shields drop anywhere below 90%, the hull starts getting scorched.


Yep. Bridge Commander is terrible about that. In Stargate for the most part the shields seem to completely protect the hull as long as they are operating. Except for one or two occasions(The Daedalus holding back a coronal mass ejection, for instance), this holds true. In Star Trek, the shields seem to be able to stop the majority of force behind kinetic and energy impacts, but a little bit always seems to leak through. In BC, even with shields at 100% sometimes phaser fire will cause minor damage to the hull. And Torpedo's will seem to sometimes just "leak" through your shield grid, bypassing them entirely. While that seems like bad game coding, its really more following the show. Sometimes even with shields the ships just take damage anyway. Voyager dealt with it all the time. So theres a chance that some Railgun fire would seep through the shields, and if a nuke managed to get through, or go off too close and some of the heat and energy got through, it would spell very bad news for the Defiant.

Jimbo-DR
June 13th, 2007, 02:31 PM
So what...? We want to compare them and we're willing to overlook the differences. You're not. So leave...?

Its not that you can't compare them, you just have to be able to quantify the comparions your trying to make. Numbers really are the only thing that matters in this universe, every single facet of your brain uses them.
You can't say "DEFIANT CAN SHOOT LAZARS WITH SOUNDS THAT MAKE ME HAPPY WHEN THEY COME OUT OF MY TV IT WOULD WIN"

We need to be able to quantify just how powerful the weapons are, and just what effect they would have on Daedalus' shields. After the Neutronium comparison, I'm guessing the answer is not much.

And by the way, comparing the tech level of the Asgard to anything in Star Trek is ludacris. The Asgard and the Ancients have been around for potentially millions of years. We know the Ancients have been around for somewhere greater than 50 million. Even with the knowledge of other races included in the Federation, NOBODY comes anywhere near that. The Asgard were crossing the Galaxy hundreds of thousands of years before the races in Stargate even got out of their own atmospheres. Keep in mind also, that the Federation is actually a culmination of knowledge, but that humans greatly helped increase its power. In Star Trek Enterprise, the Vulcans ships go around Warp 7, and they don't share their knowledge with humans. After that it became a collaboration, and all the sudden the humans were surpassing them and helping the Federation to become the major power of the quadrant.

SoulReaver
June 13th, 2007, 02:52 PM
USS Defiant vs. DSC Daedalus

=> USS Defiant wins - because I say so
(yeah sucky logic, but just as valid as any other within the present context -)

IcyNeko
June 13th, 2007, 02:53 PM
Oh snap! Ok folks! Thread over. :(

Jimbo-DR
June 13th, 2007, 02:55 PM
USS Defiant vs. DSC Daedalus

=> USS Defiant wins - because I say so
(yeah sucky logic, but just as valid as any other within the present context -)

Well some people say cucumbers taste better pickled.

darth_timon
June 13th, 2007, 02:55 PM
The Daedalus OWNS the Defiant. Torpedoes are in the multi-megaton range at best whilst the Daedalus packs missiles weighing in at the gigaton range.

The very first naquadah enhanced nukes seen in Stargate were said to have a total yield of 1 gigaton- some ten years later, and the Mark 9 missiles pack yields in the region of between 800GT to over 1,000GT.

A Mark 5 would sit somewhere between that, exactly where I cannot say, but even if it were no better than the first enhanced nukes seen on the show, it would still be enough to punch through the Defiant's shields with one shot.

If the Defiant cloaks, she will lose shields and the detonation of a few nukes will send powerful energies in all directions that will surely find their mark. This may not destroy the Defiant but it will certainly damage her at the very least.

The Defiant does not have the firepower to hurt the Daedalus.

darth_timon
June 13th, 2007, 02:58 PM
You're inane to be confusing the SG-1 Cruiser "Daedalus", which they refer on the show as the USAF Daedalus, with the USS Daedalus, a front-runner design starship that came before the USS Enterprise ( http://memory-alpha.org/en/wiki/Daedalus_class ) in a section where we just got done telling someone that these cross-universe VERSUS threads are retarded.

WE HAVE NO PLACE TO COMPARE THE OUTPUT OF ASGARD SHIELDS AGAINST FEDERATION EQUIVALENTS SO STOP COMPARING STARGATE TO ANY OTHER UNIVERSE AND PUT THIS THREAD IN THE GAMES FORUM WHERE OTHER GORG THREADS BELONG.

Now, if you were comparing the Defiant-class to the Daedalus-class from the star trek universe... I'd say your thread is retarded still. The Daedalus-class is from the 22nd century and, by the 24th century, is far outdated.

In other words, stop posting.

Tell me Nekyo, if you don't like versus threads, why are you so active in the Ori army vs WWII army thread?

IcyNeko
June 13th, 2007, 02:59 PM
Actually, photon torpedoes and quantum torpedoes have explosive yields measured in the isoton range. http://memory-alpha.org/en/wiki/Quantum_torpedo

:)

I'm not sure if there's a comparison between a megaton and an isoton.

darth_timon
June 13th, 2007, 03:05 PM
Here's a tip for you Neko- if you are so dead-set against versus threads, then don't read them. You are not being forced to take part, you don't have to do any thinking about the topic at all- so don't.

If you actually intend to carry on posting in these threads that you appear to loathe so much, then consider that there ARE ways of comparing different sci-fi universes.

There are examples from Star Trek, Star Wars, Stargate, Babylon 5 and other sci-fi universes of planetary attacks, asteroids being blown up etc- we can quite easily work out how much firepower is needed to perform those acts by applying some simple science- the mechanics of how the weapons work is not important- we can still measure the effects of those weapons.

If that's too time consuming for you, then by all means, complain about versus threads. Way I see it, you don't have to read them.

the_dark_light
June 13th, 2007, 03:10 PM
Here's a tip for you Neko- if you are so dead-set against versus threads, then don't read them. You are not being forced to take part, you don't have to do any thinking about the topic at all- so don't.

You've hit the nail right on the head.

SoulReaver
June 13th, 2007, 03:12 PM
Well some people say cucumbers taste better pickled.k then, new match : Defiant vs Daedalus with Daedalus' standard railgun shells replaced with pickled cucumbers (to "spice" things up)

PG15
June 13th, 2007, 03:16 PM
The Daedalus OWNS the Defiant. Torpedoes are in the multi-megaton range at best whilst the Daedalus packs missiles weighing in at the gigaton range.

The very first naquadah enhanced nukes seen in Stargate were said to have a total yield of 1 gigaton- some ten years later, and the Mark 9 missiles pack yields in the region of between 800GT to over 1,000GT.

A Mark 5 would sit somewhere between that, exactly where I cannot say, but even if it were no better than the first enhanced nukes seen on the show, it would still be enough to punch through the Defiant's shields with one shot.

If the Defiant cloaks, she will lose shields and the detonation of a few nukes will send powerful energies in all directions that will surely find their mark. This may not destroy the Defiant but it will certainly damage her at the very least.

The Defiant does not have the firepower to hurt the Daedalus.

Don't forget though, that the Defiant is VERY manuverable. Just take a look at some of its moves in "Sacrifice of Angels" and "Shattered Mirror", where it was running circles around DS9 and the Regent's Negh'Var.

It doesn't matter how powerful the missiles are if they can't hit their target.

Jimbo-DR
June 13th, 2007, 03:26 PM
Don't forget though, that the Defiant is VERY manuverable. Just take a look at some of its moves in "Sacrifice of Angels" and "Shattered Mirror", where it was running circles around DS9 and the Regent's Negh'Var.

It doesn't matter how powerful the missiles are if they can't hit their target.

I unfortunately haven't seen most of DS9 :(
Although I do know that the Defiant is suprisingly manuverable, but still, Nukes have a pretty big radius that they throw energy around in. Also, Daedalus can beam nukes, and even if they can't penetrate Defiant's shields, couldn't they just beam them right NEXT to the Defiant's shields? I'm sure that would still be pretty effective.

Evil_Genius_McKay
June 13th, 2007, 03:44 PM
Yeah even though Daedalus has a lot of firepower I'm seriously doubting it can actually hit the Defiant.

Crunch this math- 1 Defiant Quantum Torpedo has 50+ isotons

which is equivalent to about 64.41 megatons

1,000 megatons = 1 gigaton

If a Deadalus missile is indeed over a gigaton then getting hit buy one Daedalus missile would be like getting hit with 15 quantum torpedos.

Largest Nuke to date 50 megatons.

http://memory-alpha.org/en/wiki/Isoton

So in a turn around I think that yeah if the Defiant gets hit it is going to loose, the question is can you hit it?

But on that note I believe any weapon that is in 1,000 gigaton range based on current human technology is extremely far feched given that are best weapon now is only 50 megatons. Your saying the Naquadah enhances the explosion by 950 megatons? Come on? In first movie Ra says it will increase the destructive power of the explosive by 100 times.

That would be only 500 megatons compaired to several gigatons if they followed the original movies naquadah enhancement.

PG15
June 13th, 2007, 03:45 PM
No; what will happen is, the Deady will beam the nuke, and Sisko would detect it and go to warp. However, the explosion mixed with the puncturing of subspace in going to warp will throw the Defiant back in time.

Hilarity ensues. :D

Phantom6
June 13th, 2007, 03:48 PM
Actually, photon torpedoes and quantum torpedoes have explosive yields measured in the isoton range. http://memory-alpha.org/en/wiki/Quantum_torpedo

:)

I'm not sure if there's a comparison between a megaton and an isoton.

"Isoton" Like "KiloQuad" is a made up measurement to reflect growth in measurement in the future.


So it's likely IsoTon is SIGNIFICANTLY greater than Gigaton.

Evil_Genius_McKay
June 13th, 2007, 04:03 PM
This is what I would do if I was the Defiant captain, jump to warp and lauch all of my torpedos I had at Daedalus. Torpedos in Star Trek have their own warp so you both distance and escape the Daedalus while simultaneously kicking the crap out of it. I know the nuke on Deddy wouldn't catch Defiant in warp.

The Defiant has 64 torpedoes, I think that is plenty to wipe out a Deddy
At least that is 4,122.24 megatons of force or like 4 of those nukes hitting you in short order.
Like someone pointed out the isotons could be even more potentially powerful than what is stated.

MacGuyverThis
June 13th, 2007, 04:56 PM
Hey the Daedulas could have a Horizion in her Bomb bay . Bay opens and those nukes fire out of the booster .We are talking 6 Tactial Nukes here fired at once . now thats a edge there I almost forgot about that .

s09119
June 13th, 2007, 05:07 PM
And throw this in: The Daedalus simply beams a nuke on top of the Defiant's shields. On top of, so the beam doesn't have to punhc through them. It goes off instantly, probably knocking them offline. Then it beams a nuke onto the ship itself.

Victory.

Jimbo-DR
June 13th, 2007, 05:14 PM
And throw this in: The Daedalus simply beams a nuke on top of the Defiant's shields. On top of, so the beam doesn't have to punhc through them. It goes off instantly, probably knocking them offline. Then it beams a nuke onto the ship itself.

Victory.


If a multi gigaton device went off right next to the Defiant, It would probably be the only one required. Think of the Gatebuster. I'm pretty sure the Defiants shields wouldn't protect against that.

s09119
June 13th, 2007, 05:15 PM
If a multi gigaton device went off right next to the Defiant, It would probably be the only one required. Think of the Gatebuster. I'm pretty sure the Defiants shields wouldn't protect against that.

Even better :D what he said

PG15
June 13th, 2007, 05:21 PM
Sorry, I don't see that working, for the simple reason that it takes a few seconds for the bomb to materialize; therefore, the Defiant would've travelled a sufficiently large distance from it by the time it can go off.

s09119
June 13th, 2007, 05:24 PM
Sorry, I don't see that working, for the simple reason that it takes a few seconds for the bomb to materialize; therefore, the Defiant would've travelled a sufficiently large distance from it by the time it can go off.

It takes a split second for something to materialize, as we've seen in numerous episodes. The only reason it takes some time for the bomb to go off is that Hermiod always programmed it for a 5 second delay (Siege 3). If they set it for 1 second it would go off instantly, not giving it any time to manuever away.

SG-25CSAR
June 13th, 2007, 05:30 PM
I have a question, If the USS Defiant goes to Warp, for whatever reason, How would the USAF Deadalus fallow? It uses Hyperspace witch is a different concept.

If they both use warp then the Deady cold try other tactics. If they both use hyper space then the Defiant can't warp away from danger and make hit and runs in that manner.

BuggyMan
June 13th, 2007, 05:33 PM
But on that note I believe any weapon that is in 1,000 gigaton range based on current human technology is extremely far feched given that are best weapon now is only 50 megatons. Your saying the Naquadah enhances the explosion by 950 megatons? Come on? In first movie Ra says it will increase the destructive power of the explosive by 100 times.

That would be only 500 megatons compaired to several gigatons if they followed the original movies naquadah enhancement.

50*100 = 5000

Also I wanted to add that using nukes in close combat (that's what the Defiant is designed for) could be a bad decision.

s09119
June 13th, 2007, 05:35 PM
I have a question, If the USS Defiant goes to Warp, for whatever reason, How would the USAF Deadalus fallow? It uses Hyperspace witch is a different concept.

If they both use warp then the Deady cold try other tactics. If they both use hyper space then the Defiant can't warp away from danger and make hit and runs in that manner.

Good question... I honestly don't know. Depends on which universe the fight was taking place in, I guess.

PG15
June 13th, 2007, 05:42 PM
It takes a split second for something to materialize, as we've seen in numerous episodes. The only reason it takes some time for the bomb to go off is that Hermiod always programmed it for a 5 second delay (Siege 3). If they set it for 1 second it would go off instantly, not giving it any time to manuever away.

I don't think time actually elapses during beaming. Besides, 1 second is a long time for a starship to manuver away, or even jump to warp to avoid the explosion.

Also, is there a limit to how far Asgard transporters can beam stuff to? What if the Defiant stays outside of that limit and just fire her weapons from there?

Evil_Genius_McKay
June 13th, 2007, 06:20 PM
50*100 = 5000

Also I wanted to add that using nukes in close combat (that's what the Defiant is designed for) could be a bad decision.

My Bad thanks! lol That's why I'm not a math major. That's a big difference. Naquadah really is kickin isn't it? 5,000 megatons!

I'm guessing the nuke they had in the first movie wasn't a 50 megaton bomb though.

s09119
June 13th, 2007, 06:38 PM
I don't think time actually elapses during beaming. Besides, 1 second is a long time for a starship to manuver away, or even jump to warp to avoid the explosion.

Also, is there a limit to how far Asgard transporters can beam stuff to? What if the Defiant stays outside of that limit and just fire her weapons from there?

Well, in "Ex Deus Machina", the Prometheus beams a skyscraper from Earth when it's out near the moon... That's pretty far.

Jimbo-DR
June 13th, 2007, 06:43 PM
Well, in "Ex Deus Machina", the Prometheus beams a skyscraper from Earth when it's out near the moon... That's pretty far.

Indeed. Also, if even modern day Earth can fire missles and other weapons which take into account the movement of an object, I'm sure we could time a beam transmission to be right about where the Defiant was by the time it got to that point. Also, when your beaming multi gigaton explosive devices, you don't have to be perfect. They go KABOOOOM for a good reason. With the speed of the Defiant at full impulse, 5 seconds WOULD be a very long time. But if you time the nukes, or better yet, remote detonate them with the push of a button, then I don't see it getting nearly far away enough.

s09119
June 13th, 2007, 06:45 PM
Indeed. Also, if even modern day Earth can fire missles and other weapons which take into account the movement of an object, I'm sure we could time a beam transmission to be right about where the Defiant was by the time it got to that point. Also, when your beaming multi gigaton explosive devices, you don't have to be perfect. They go KABOOOOM for a good reason. With the speed of the Defiant at full impulse, 5 seconds WOULD be a very long time. But if you time the nukes, or better yet, remote detonate them with the push of a button, then I don't see it getting nearly far away enough.

Indeed. The explosions from First Strike are massive, probably dozens of kilometers across. So I'm assuming the Defiant couldn't simply outrun the explosion.

Jimbo-DR
June 13th, 2007, 06:51 PM
Yep. And they expand pretty darn quick too. Also, even if Defiant outruns most of the explosion, we've seen a lot of instances from both shows where a ship gets relatively far away but still takes anywhere from minor to massive damage from a high gigaton explosion. I'm remembering when Sisko and co destroyed that Ketracel White planet, and the explosion went off a little sooner than planned. Even though they were moving away at High impulse, the explosion caught them and totally knocked out their warp drive, and damaged other systems as well. Defiant isn't actually a bastion of strength, so how much energy like that could it really withstand.

PG15
June 13th, 2007, 07:25 PM
Actually, they were in a Jem"Hadar attackship.

But yeah, I get your point. Still, if they react fast enough, they can simply jump to warp to avoid the shockwave; it'll be very close though.

TKG
June 13th, 2007, 07:27 PM
ok for one... Icy neko for some one with the word 'icy' in their name your plainly not.

Now back to the matter at hand The USS defiant versus the daedelus, I vote for the defiant.

Mow here's the reasoning, for one despite what everyone wants to beleive the defiant was not designed as a borg killer but instead it was there to be a escort craft. This is a role it performs with absolute perfection. it like most escorts would comensate for thin armor syndrome by being more agile thus making it harder to hit making it by all means deadly on attack but lackluster on defence.

If you compare that to the daedelus which is one of earth's early starships with it's trinium hull and less then advanced weapons loadout and compareably slow accelerationa nd maneuvering one has to ask. Well crap how can a ship of that size hit something that might be a third of it's size and will be twice as fast?

then theres the fan-wank section that starts talking of beaming? to be fair whats to stop the defiant from beaming pre-set warheads over? after all it should be a well known fact the defiant carries at least one high powered warhead behind the sensor array inthe nose and a maximum of three such warheads each of which makes a photon torp look like a a three pound block of c4.

Here's a tip for you Neko- if you are so dead-set against versus threads, then don't read them. You are not being forced to take part, you don't have to do any thinking about the topic at all- so don't. -Darth Timon

Very wise advice but I doubt he'll take it.

And throw this in: The Daedalus simply beams a nuke on top of the Defiant's shields. On top of, so the beam doesn't have to punhc through them. It goes off instantly, probably knocking them offline. Then it beams a nuke onto the ship itself. Victory. -S09119

Unless the defiant beams the nuke back aboard the deadalus....Nuclear hot potato wrath!

Evil_Genius_McKay
June 13th, 2007, 07:37 PM
For that matter Defiant could beam over an away team and warp out without Daedalus ever knowing with their cloak and then take Daedalus from within! There are so many different scenarios that could happen some ending in Daedalus' defeat others in Defiant's defeat. I still like my run away at warp and shoot all your quantum torps out the aft launchers see how they like that! :D:ronananime01:

darth_timon
June 14th, 2007, 01:09 AM
The Defiant may be an agile craft but in order to line up her fancy pulse phasers she will have to be coming pretty much straight at the Daedalus, which can in turn shoot off missiles at very fast rates (See 'No Man's Land'). Those missiles are also quicker than torpedoes.

Beaming weapons is only really viable if you know the course of the other ship, thought the nukes in 'First Strike' weigh in at a minimum of 800GT, so such an explosion in space, especially if there is more than one of them, could buffet the Defiant from all angles. A direct hit from even the earliest enhanced nukes developed by the Stargate program would take out the Defiant's shields and the Daedalus has shields that can handle repeated multi-gigaton weapons fire from Goa'uld ships. It would take a lot more than 64 torpedoes to breach her shields. The Defiant can either run or be destroyed. It can't win.

Alterran1.
June 14th, 2007, 02:40 AM
Quantum torpedoes use zero point energy to do their damage

s09119
June 14th, 2007, 04:04 AM
ok for one... Icy neko for some one with the word 'icy' in their name your plainly not.

Now back to the matter at hand The USS defiant versus the daedelus, I vote for the defiant.

Mow here's the reasoning, for one despite what everyone wants to beleive the defiant was not designed as a borg killer but instead it was there to be a escort craft. This is a role it performs with absolute perfection. it like most escorts would comensate for thin armor syndrome by being more agile thus making it harder to hit making it by all means deadly on attack but lackluster on defence.

If you compare that to the daedelus which is one of earth's early starships with it's trinium hull and less then advanced weapons loadout and compareably slow accelerationa nd maneuvering one has to ask. Well crap how can a ship of that size hit something that might be a third of it's size and will be twice as fast?

then theres the fan-wank section that starts talking of beaming? to be fair whats to stop the defiant from beaming pre-set warheads over? after all it should be a well known fact the defiant carries at least one high powered warhead behind the sensor array inthe nose and a maximum of three such warheads each of which makes a photon torp look like a a three pound block of c4.

Here's a tip for you Neko- if you are so dead-set against versus threads, then don't read them. You are not being forced to take part, you don't have to do any thinking about the topic at all- so don't. -Darth Timon

Very wise advice but I doubt he'll take it.

And throw this in: The Daedalus simply beams a nuke on top of the Defiant's shields. On top of, so the beam doesn't have to punhc through them. It goes off instantly, probably knocking them offline. Then it beams a nuke onto the ship itself. Victory. -S09119

Unless the defiant beams the nuke back aboard the deadalus....Nuclear hot potato wrath!

Why is beaming fan-wank? It's a usable ability, so why not use it in the battle? If it came to a fight, Caldwell would certainly try it.

As for the Defiant beaming a nuke back, the Daedalus' shields would prevent a beam-through. If they tried the same tactic I'm suggesting... I don't know. The Daedalus alone might not be able to take it, but the Daedalus with a ZPM installed or Asgard upgrades would probably just keep going.

Good point though, I'd forgotten that ST transporters don't need a transporter at the other end... Wow, I need to watch more ST now lol... That's sad.

s09119
June 14th, 2007, 04:06 AM
For that matter Defiant could beam over an away team and warp out without Daedalus ever knowing with their cloak and then take Daedalus from within! There are so many different scenarios that could happen some ending in Daedalus' defeat others in Defiant's defeat. I still like my run away at warp and shoot all your quantum torps out the aft launchers see how they like that! :D:ronananime01:

The Daedalus' shields would prevent an away team getting in, the transport wouldn't work. Maybe if the Defiant had a ring platform installed... ;)

TKG
June 14th, 2007, 05:02 AM
Why is beaming fan-wank? It's a usable ability, so why not use it in the battle? If it came to a fight, Caldwell would certainly try it.

You really know why? Because thats the first thing anyone can seem to think of when it comes to tactics and the deadelus. It's not all that hard to come up with a better plan then that.

As for the Defiant beaming a nuke back, the Daedalus' shields would prevent a beam-through. If they tried the same tactic I'm suggesting...

I never said a thing about a beam through....I said beam it back... remember the whole beam a nuke right in front of the defiant comment? Two can readily play at that game.

I don't know. The Daedalus alone might not be able to take it, but the Daedalus with a ZPM installed or Asgard upgrades would probably just keep going.

Now defiant versus odyseey...I'd vote for odyssey, that ship is just a 50 gallon drum of whupass. but in terms of the deadelus as is eh...I suspect it might not be a battle of weapons but maeuvers.

Good point though, I'd forgotten that ST transporters don't need a transporter at the other end... Wow, I need to watch more ST now lol... That's sad.

Yeah...I admit it I've watched a lot of trek, In the end it'd be one hell of a fight, one that a lot of folks would probably kill to see.

s09119
June 14th, 2007, 05:17 AM
You really know why? Because thats the first thing anyone can seem to think of when it comes to tactics and the deadelus. It's not all that hard to come up with a better plan then that.

I had a few other ideas, but a lot were already listed, and that wasn't, so I posted it.


I never said a thing about a beam through....I said beam it back... remember the whole beam a nuke right in front of the defiant comment? Two can readily play at that game.

Oh, okay. Sorry, I misunderstood. I don't think you could. First, the ST crew could have to detect it appearing, and THEN they'd have to lock onto its signiture, THEN transport it back... All in under a split second. I don't think ti would work, but then again it's sci-fi, so it might.



Now defiant versus odyseey...I'd vote for odyssey, that ship is just a 50 gallon drum of whupass. but in terms of the deadelus as is eh...I suspect it might not be a battle of weapons but maeuvers.

True, the Odyssey would pretty much destroy ANYTHING. And the Defiant would certainly have the advantage of agility, though Daedalus-class ships are pretty fast, too.


Yeah...I admit it I've watched a lot of trek, In the end it'd be one hell of a fight, one that a lot of folks would probably kill to see.

Not gonna argue there :)

SG-25CSAR
June 14th, 2007, 06:22 AM
The Daedalus could release some nukes to make the defiant fly into the path of a Horizon sys. Those things travel Really fast, I forgot the speed though. So could anyone tell me how fast those nukes go?

Since it seems easier to penetrate Star Trek shields I am guessing that if they could put the shield modulator on the railguns we could scratch up the Defiant's hull. That and leading the Defiant into the Horizon should take care of it.

IcyNeko
June 14th, 2007, 08:12 AM
"Isoton" Like "KiloQuad" is a made up measurement to reflect growth in measurement in the future.


So it's likely IsoTon is SIGNIFICANTLY greater than Gigaton.

I would bring this point back up again. Since Megaton warheads were used in World War 3 (ST universe), and Enterprise used weapons that were more advanced, I'd venture to guess that by the 24th century, using shields that CAN withstand quantum torpedoes (Zero Point weapons), the defiant could stand up to a few gatebusters.

And as for my loyal fans whom are so interested in giving me advice, carry on children. Know that I'm happily filing your concerns in the circular filing cabinet.

Buba uognarf
June 14th, 2007, 08:18 AM
Actually the 64 megaton number is total BS. It comes from a non canon source and we've seen Torpedoes display high megatons of firepower.

Even if we do assume that a 25 isoton torpedo is 64 megatons Voyager is quoted to have 200 isoton weapons i think the defiant would pack something atleast as strong. The Defiant does have the firepower to take down the Asgard shields and i doubt the nukes will be as effective as everyone thinks. Rail guns would do nothing against the Defiants ablative armor hull.

s09119
June 14th, 2007, 08:33 AM
Actually the 64 megaton number is total BS. It comes from a non canon source and we've seen Torpedoes display high megatons of firepower.

Even if we do assume that a 25 isoton torpedo is 64 megatons Voyager is quoted to have 200 isoton weapons i think the defiant would pack something atleast as strong. The Defiant does have the firepower to take down the Asgard shields and i doubt the nukes will be as effective as everyone thinks. Rail guns would do nothing against the Defiants ablative armor hull.

I don't know about saying the railguns round be useless... Railguns are designed to fire projectiles at hundreds of km/h... that's pretty **** fast, and packing once heck of a punch.

IcyNeko
June 14th, 2007, 08:35 AM
It's a kinetic, projectile weapon. The Federation starship defiant has ablative hull, which is designed to crumble away once it takes enough damage. Also, since the biggest threat in space is decompression, structural integrety fields usually can be boosted to strengthen the hull and frame against projectile weapons.

Finally, Star trek shields can be rotated. Since Projectile weapons don't cause huge energy dispersal like phasers, only a small portion would be effected. They could rotate their shields and ignore you all day.

Hypochondriac
June 14th, 2007, 08:38 AM
The rail guns on atlantis were mach 5, it should be faster in the vacuum of space. Whats the top speed of the Defiant? I know the Galaxy class enterprise was said to be capable of .9c but never traveled at the speed because of the relevastic effects.

.9c thing I believe was in the technical manual, which IIRC is not considered canon by some. I betting the Defiant can out run the railguns

Wasn't there a Star trek episode in which they mentioned speed in several hundred kps ?

http://memory-alpha.org/en/wiki/Impulse_drive

By the 2270s, impulse was capable of reaching 80% of light speed without the warp drive even being online. (Star Trek: The Motion Picture)

How fast to the missiles go? I don't think they could catch the defient

Evil_Genius_McKay
June 14th, 2007, 09:49 AM
I would bring this point back up again. Since Megaton warheads were used in World War 3 (ST universe), and Enterprise used weapons that were more advanced, I'd venture to guess that by the 24th century, using shields that CAN withstand quantum torpedoes (Zero Point weapons), the defiant could stand up to a few gatebusters.

And as for my loyal fans whom are so interested in giving me advice, carry on children. Know that I'm happily filing your concerns in the circular filing cabinet.

I was going to bring this up. Nuclear powered weapons are considered old news in the Star Trek Universe. Very primitive.

s09119
June 14th, 2007, 09:50 AM
I was going to bring this up. Nuclear powered weapons are considered old news in the Star Trek Universe. Very primitive.

Ewoks were also considered primitive... ;)

Sorry, couldn't reisist.

Evil_Genius_McKay
June 14th, 2007, 10:00 AM
Ewoks were also considered primitive... ;)

Sorry, couldn't reisist.

Get off the Ewoks! They are an anomoly! Freaks!

Jk I like Ewoks but they are an exception to the rule. Besides they had a little help from Han Solo and company.

IcyNeko
June 14th, 2007, 10:15 AM
The rail guns on atlantis were mach 5, it should be faster in the vacuum of space. Whats the top speed of the Defiant? I know the Galaxy class enterprise was said to be capable of .9c but never traveled at the speed because of the relevastic effects.

.9c thing I believe was in the technical manual, which IIRC is not considered canon by some. I betting the Defiant can't out run the railguns

Wasn't there a Star trek episode in which they mentioned speed in several hundred kps ?

http://memory-alpha.org/en/wiki/Impulse_drive

By the 2270s, impulse was capable of reaching 80% of light speed without the warp drive even being online. (Star Trek: The Motion Picture)

How fast to the missiles go? I don't think they could catch the defient

Magnetically propelled projectiles can't beat impulse drive. At least not full impulse. Neither can they sustain their speed forever. Gravity effects of planets and friction from space debris would slow it down.

s09119
June 14th, 2007, 10:17 AM
Magnetically propelled projectiles can't beat impulse drive. At least not full impulse. Neither can they sustain their speed forever. Gravity effects of planets and friction from space debris would slow it down.

Not if the engagemement was in deep space. Planets would be so far out that their gravity would be negligible (and it is NEAR planet's, too, mostly), and there wouldn't be much in the way of space debris.

IcyNeko
June 14th, 2007, 10:18 AM
Such parameters weren't specified in the previous discussions and will be summarily disregarded. Because if I were adding things, like you seem to like, I'd say "NUH UH. WHAT IF THERE WAS A BLACK HOLE. THEN EVERYONE WOULD LOSE".

In fact, I think I will use that everytime you post a theory from now on. A portable black hole.

s09119
June 14th, 2007, 10:23 AM
Such parameters weren't specified in the previous discussions and will be summarily disregarded. Because if I were adding things, like you seem to like, I'd say "NUH UH. WHAT IF THERE WAS A BLACK HOLE. THEN EVERYONE WOULD LOSE".

In fact, I think I will use that everytime you post a theory from now on. A portable black hole.

WTF are you talking about? The thread said what if they fought, no location was used. Every battle NEEDS a location, and it CAN have an impact. I made a valid point. If they're in deep space, your gravity argument (which i still think is VERY overrated... Earth's gravity is useless on the space station, remember?) loses its validity. In fact, I don't think it works PERIOD.

And what if there was a black hole? Both ships could probably just warp/hyperspace out of there and survive.

IcyNeko
June 14th, 2007, 10:28 AM
WTF are you talking about? The thread said what if they fought, no location was used. Every battle NEEDS a location, and it CAN have an impact. I made a valid point. If they're in deep space, your gravity argument (which i still think is VERY overrated... Earth's gravity is useless on the space station, remember?) loses its validity. In fact, I don't think it works PERIOD.

Space stations use orbital thrusters to stay in geosynchronous orbit. They don't just magically stay up there. They're also placed at a position where the gravity will be less of a pull on the station. Bullets, on the other hand, are fired at an arbitrary position and direction and subject to a number of variable gravitational fields.


And what if there was a black hole? Both ships could probably just warp/hyperspace out of there and survive.

Just how much scifi have you seen? Ships don't exactly make it out of black holes. At least not easily. Daedalus isn't equipped with anything remotely capable of escaping gravitational wells of that magnitude. I doubt the Odyssey could either.

And the Defiant? There are reasons why the navigational computer controls warp. It takes the starship clear away from black holes because otherwise the ship would be torn apart.

Take your fanwank out of the applicable science and tech section.

s09119
June 14th, 2007, 10:34 AM
Space stations use orbital thrusters to stay in geosynchronous orbit. They don't just magically stay up there. They're also placed at a position where the gravity will be less of a pull on the station. Bullets, on the other hand, are fired at an arbitrary position and direction and subject to a number of variable gravitational fields.



Just how much scifi have you seen? Ships don't exactly make it out of black holes. At least not easily. Daedalus isn't equipped with anything remotely capable of escaping gravitational wells of that magnitude. I doubt the Odyssey could either.

And the Defiant? There are reasons why the navigational computer controls warp. It takes the starship clear away from black holes because otherwise the ship would be torn apart.

Take your fanwank out of the applicable science and tech section.

I'm using Stargate's laws of physics here. I seem to remember Odyssey going into a blackhole, then using its gravity to slingshot out. And if they opened a hyperspace window in front of them (facing the black hole), why couldn't they just enter it?

So why don't you please leave me alone?

Evil_Genius_McKay
June 14th, 2007, 10:39 AM
Space stations use orbital thrusters to stay in geosynchronous orbit. They don't just magically stay up there. They're also placed at a position where the gravity will be less of a pull on the station. Bullets, on the other hand, are fired at an arbitrary position and direction and subject to a number of variable gravitational fields.



Just how much scifi have you seen? Ships don't exactly make it out of black holes. At least not easily. Daedalus isn't equipped with anything remotely capable of escaping gravitational wells of that magnitude. I doubt the Odyssey could either.

And the Defiant? There are reasons why the navigational computer controls warp. It takes the starship clear away from black holes because otherwise the ship would be torn apart.

Take your fanwank out of the applicable science and tech section.

Agreed, Neko.

Anyways projectile weapons in space are eventually going to get pulled into some gravity-well whether it be planet, star, whatever.

A black-hole would be completely unescapable with warp and hyperspace drives. For instance the gravity well of many large objects in space, including a planet have sufficient gravity to prevent warping or hyperspacing untill you get far enough away from the gravity well. I know it is like that in Star Wars and in many other Sci-fi shows. One of the only shows I saw that broke the rule was the new Lost in Space movie where they hyperspaced through the sun's core as they got sucked into it which was rediculous in itself but clearly breaks a lot of longstanding rules in Sci-fi.

You can skirt black-holes at quite a distance to shave the distance of your travel by quite a bit, but your still a long ways away.

darth_timon
June 14th, 2007, 10:40 AM
I would bring this point back up again. Since Megaton warheads were used in World War 3 (ST universe), and Enterprise used weapons that were more advanced, I'd venture to guess that by the 24th century, using shields that CAN withstand quantum torpedoes (Zero Point weapons), the defiant could stand up to a few gatebusters.

And as for my loyal fans whom are so interested in giving me advice, carry on children. Know that I'm happily filing your concerns in the circular filing cabinet.

There is evidence from The Next Generation that torpedoes are only in the kiloton range (see 'SKin of Evil' and 'Pegasus', seasons 1 and 7 respectively).

And even if torpedoes are in the high megaton range, there is simply no way for the Defiant to stand up to a gatebuster. The gatebuster was between 800 gigatons and over 1,000 gigatons. No Federation ship on Star Trek has ever approached this level of firepower.

In the meantime, if you wish to take part in versus debates whilst at the same time criticising their existence, go ahead- it's a very ironic stance for a person to take....

Evil_Genius_McKay
June 14th, 2007, 10:44 AM
I'm using Stargate's laws of physics here. I seem to remember Odyssey going into a blackhole, then using its gravity to slingshot out. And if they opened a hyperspace window in front of them (facing the black hole), why couldn't they just enter it?

So why don't you please leave me alone?

What episode was that? In an early SG-1 episode either season 1 or 2 a black hole opens up near to a planet that they have a team on and it slows time down to virtually nothing. The gate was open so the effects start to effect Earth as well in that episode they said the black hole would have destroyed both the alien planet and Earth with its enormous gravity. It even sucked the iris off of the gate. The whole mountain was in a time anomoly.

IcyNeko
June 14th, 2007, 10:50 AM
There is evidence from The Next Generation that torpedoes are only in the kiloton range (see 'SKin of Evil' and 'Pegasus', seasons 1 and 7 respectively).

The torpedo yield can be varied. They made a big point of this in star trek enterprise when Malcolm said that, with the new torpedoes, he could destroy a starship or take the tip off some rock formation. Or something to that order. :)


I'm using Stargate's laws of physics here. I seem to remember Odyssey going into a blackhole, then using its gravity to slingshot out. And if they opened a hyperspace window in front of them (facing the black hole), why couldn't they just enter it?
They thrusted AROUND the event horizon of the blackhole. If they went INTO the blackhole, there would be one less starship. And even when they went AROUND it, they took considerable damage.

Recall when the replicators escaped from the time-inverted black hole and how Thor was shocked. Yeah, if the asgards are shocked, that means that anyone suggesting blackhole travel is easy (you) should stop posting. Submit Reply isn't an order.


So why don't you please leave me alone?
If you pointed out things that were accurate to begin with, I wouldn't have anything to correct now would I?

darth_timon
June 14th, 2007, 10:50 AM
In 'The Pegasus Project' the Odyssey slingshots around the event horizon of a black hole. It doesn't actually go in the black hole as such, but it does get very close and is able to escape again.

Evil_Genius_McKay
June 14th, 2007, 10:52 AM
There is evidence from The Next Generation that torpedoes are only in the kiloton range (see 'SKin of Evil' and 'Pegasus', seasons 1 and 7 respectively).

And even if torpedoes are in the high megaton range, there is simply no way for the Defiant to stand up to a gatebuster. The gatebuster was between 800 gigatons and over 1,000 gigatons. No Federation ship on Star Trek has ever approached this level of firepower.

In the meantime, if you wish to take part in versus debates whilst at the same time criticising their existence, go ahead- it's a very ironic stance for a person to take....

That is regular photon torpedos though not quantum torpedos that they used in those seasons and they work off of antimatter not zero point energy.

darth_timon
June 14th, 2007, 10:54 AM
The torpedo yield can be varied. They made a big point of this in star trek enterprise when Malcolm said that, with the new torpedoes, he could destroy a starship or take the tip off some rock formation. Or something to that order. :)

In 'Pegasus' the Enterprise had to destroy an asteroid containing an experimental ship and do so thoroughly enough to ensure that the Romulans wouldn't find anything worth salvaging. It was stated that they would need most of their torpedoes to destroy a 3KM hollow asteroid. If torpedoes have variable yield, they could have simply upped the yield of a torpedo until they had the firepower they needed. They didn't do this.

darth_timon
June 14th, 2007, 10:56 AM
That is regular photon torpedos though not quantum torpedos that they used in those seasons and they work off of antimatter not zero point energy.

Then please point out where quantum torpedoes display firepower that is in same region as what naq-enhanced nukes can do.

s09119
June 14th, 2007, 10:58 AM
What episode was that? In an early SG-1 episode either season 1 or 2 a black hole opens up near to a planet that they have a team on and it slows time down to virtually nothing. The gate was open so the effects start to effect Earth as well in that episode they said the black hole would have destroyed both the alien planet and Earth with its enormous gravity. It even sucked the iris off of the gate. The whole mountain was in a time anomoly.

It was in "The Pegasus Project", and I know that normally, you could never escape a black hole once yu passed the event horizon.

Evil_Genius_McKay
June 14th, 2007, 11:01 AM
Then please point out where quantum torpedoes display firepower that is in same region as what naq-enhanced nukes can do.

I never did, look back through the posts. Of course the Naquadah enhanced nukes are more powerful.

I'm merely saying that at the power that they have a full compliment of torps on the Defiant has plenty enough power to take out Daedalus because it is equal to getting hit with like 4+ of those Naquadah enhanced nukes at the very least. That isn't taking into account the pulse phasers. I guessing a deddy can take out another deddy(non-asgard upgrade like Odyssey) with four of thos high yield nukes.

darth_timon
June 14th, 2007, 11:09 AM
I never did, look back through the posts. Of course the Naquadah enhanced nukes are more powerful.

I'm merely saying that at the power that they have a full compliment of torps on the Defiant has plenty enough power to take out Daedalus because it is equal to getting hit with like 4+ of those Naquadah enhanced nukes at the very least. That isn't taking into account the pulse phasers. I guessing a deddy can take out another deddy(non-asgard upgrade like Odyssey) with four of thos high yield nukes.

There's no evidence to suggest that quantum torpedoes are even remotely powerful enough to take out the Daedalus. The tech manuals state quantum torpedoes are about twice as powerful as photon torpedoes and there is no onscreen evidence to suggest even quantum torpedoes are in the same league as the enhanced nukes used by the Daedalus. The Daedalus can withstand far more of a beating to her shields and the Defiant is all but killed with one hit.

s09119
June 14th, 2007, 11:16 AM
In 'The Pegasus Project' the Odyssey slingshots around the event horizon of a black hole. It doesn't actually go in the black hole as such, but it does get very close and is able to escape again.

Really? I could have sworn they went past the event horizon... I'll have to rewatch that and check. I suppose the extreme slowing of time could have thrown me off, but okay. Thanks for clearing that up.

Regardless, I still think that diving into a hyperspace window while inside the horizon might save the ship.

PG15
June 14th, 2007, 11:33 AM
The Defiant may be an agile craft but in order to line up her fancy pulse phasers she will have to be coming pretty much straight at the Daedalus, which can in turn shoot off missiles at very fast rates (See 'No Man's Land'). Those missiles are also quicker than torpedoes.

Beaming weapons is only really viable if you know the course of the other ship, thought the nukes in 'First Strike' weigh in at a minimum of 800GT, so such an explosion in space, especially if there is more than one of them, could buffet the Defiant from all angles. A direct hit from even the earliest enhanced nukes developed by the Stargate program would take out the Defiant's shields and the Daedalus has shields that can handle repeated multi-gigaton weapons fire from Goa'uld ships. It would take a lot more than 64 torpedoes to breach her shields. The Defiant can either run or be destroyed. It can't win.

It can run until the Deady run out of super-missiles, and then it can just fire at it without caring for anything else.

Assuming if it survives the initial barage, of course, which as you say, is not a guarentee.

SGFerrit
June 14th, 2007, 11:37 AM
Actually, photon torpedoes and quantum torpedoes have explosive yields measured in the isoton range. http://memory-alpha.org/en/wiki/Quantum_torpedo

:)

I'm not sure if there's a comparison between a megaton and an isoton.


"Isoton" Like "KiloQuad" is a made up measurement to reflect growth in measurement in the future.


So it's likely IsoTon is SIGNIFICANTLY greater than Gigaton.

2.6 megatons equates to 1 isoton

Link (http://http://memory-alpha.org/en/wiki/Isoton)

PG15
June 14th, 2007, 11:46 AM
The tech manual ain't canon

Evil_Genius_McKay
June 14th, 2007, 11:48 AM
2.6 megatons equates to 1 isoton

Link (http://http://memory-alpha.org/en/wiki/Isoton)

Ok I went to my source books on this one to look it up for official information not crap floating on the internet.

What I found was that each quantum torp that the Defiant has is equal to 52.3 isotons(officially)
So maybe we can start from there
The number of torps it can carry are 64
64x52.3=3,347.2 isotons.
Now somebody figure out what that would equal in gigatons.
From what I found there is no possible way to convert over because no direct conversions have ever been given only people theorizing on how much it is based on kg of antimatter which may not be accurate at all since again quantum torps use zero point energy instead.

In addition all of the Defiant's defensive systems are shut down in cloak including shields so it is extremely vulnerable.

Ablative armor is meant to be good against phaser fire and as seeing as the Deddy uses railguns and nukes I'm not sure how good that is going to do them. It is just an extra dispersal of energy once the shields are down.

Hypochondriac
June 14th, 2007, 11:50 AM
What do you mean my Destroy? The cloaking device Riker wanted to destroy was rather small and he wanted a 0% change of the Romulans finding it.

That Episode can be used to justify almost any yield you want.


Too bad the Books aren't Canon.. There was a Star Trek book in which it was mentioned nukes have no effect on the shields of Star Trek ships.

Buba uognarf
June 14th, 2007, 11:51 AM
In 'Pegasus' the Enterprise had to destroy an asteroid containing an experimental ship and do so thoroughly enough to ensure that the Romulans wouldn't find anything worth salvaging. It was stated that they would need most of their torpedoes to destroy a 3KM hollow asteroid. If torpedoes have variable yield, they could have simply upped the yield of a torpedo until they had the firepower they needed. They didn't do this.

Actually skin of evil shows an explosion valued in the region of 500 megatons from the blast.

You can bring in low yield examples of ST weapons if you want but then i'll bring in SG low examples.

Hypochondriac
June 14th, 2007, 11:59 AM
Actually skin of evil shows an explosion valued in the region of 500 megatons from the blast.

You can bring in low yield examples of ST weapons if you want but then i'll bring in SG low examples.

Let's compare the best yields from both shows.

For Star Trek that would be the episode "The Dice is Cast" what would it be for Star Gate? Unending? or That episode when the Ori were first trying to make a supergate?

IcyNeko
June 14th, 2007, 12:11 PM
In 'Pegasus' the Enterprise had to destroy an asteroid containing an experimental ship and do so thoroughly enough to ensure that the Romulans wouldn't find anything worth salvaging. It was stated that they would need most of their torpedoes to destroy a 3KM hollow asteroid. If torpedoes have variable yield, they could have simply upped the yield of a torpedo until they had the firepower they needed. They didn't do this.

It's possible that the torpedos of that generation didn't contain enough yield to blow up. The ST:TNG tech manual documents huge improvements in destructive power since the 1701 herself. That's not even taking into account the NX-generation warheads.

Evil_Genius_McKay
June 14th, 2007, 12:18 PM
This argument really is a moot point when one of the vessels main armaments is based on a way of measuring yield that isn't even real.

Evil_Genius_McKay
June 14th, 2007, 12:20 PM
What do you mean my Destroy? The cloaking device Riker wanted to destroy was rather small and he wanted a 0% change of the Romulans finding it.

That Episode can be used to justify almost any yield you want.


Too bad the Books aren't Canon.. There was a Star Trek book in which it was mentioned nukes have no effect on the shields of Star Trek ships.

Your talking about the novelizations right?

Hypochondriac
June 14th, 2007, 12:28 PM
Your talking about the novelizations right?

I'm taking about "The Captain's Table" books. I believe it was mentioned in one of those

IcyNeko
June 14th, 2007, 12:31 PM
This argument really is a moot point when one of the vessels main armaments is based on a way of measuring yield that isn't even real.

BUT if they fight in a blackhole, it all makes sense.

Because none of them would survive.

So off to the blackhole we goooo

Evil_Genius_McKay
June 14th, 2007, 12:36 PM
BUT if they fight in a blackhole, it all makes sense.

Because none of them would survive.

So off to the blackhole we goooo

Yeah probablly right there!

No wait lets have them fight at the edge of the Star Trek universe where thought becomes reality. That way all they would have to do is think the other ship is destroyed, and poof it is magically so!

Take some of my maginificent mind powers vs. your multi-gigaton warheads!:D

IcyNeko
June 14th, 2007, 12:39 PM
What if the USS Enterprise (United States Navy) suddenly appeared in space and began firing it's LARAZSS PEWW PEWW?

Evil_Genius_McKay
June 14th, 2007, 12:47 PM
What if the USS Enterprise (United States Navy) suddenly appeared in space and began firing it's LARAZSS PEWW PEWW?

Man I'm thinking if Q is captaining the Defiant then he can delete the Daedalus anywhere in the Universe.

IcyNeko
June 14th, 2007, 12:48 PM
Actually, if I still had Bridge Commander installed, I could settle this whole debate in a 2 minute simulation. :O

Hypochondriac
June 14th, 2007, 12:50 PM
Man I'm thinking if Q is captaining the Defiant then he can delete the Daedalus anywhere in the Universe.

Even better his kid q, he have the replicators show up and remove everyones uniforms

IcyNeko
June 14th, 2007, 12:51 PM
.... let's steer this discussion back into the "G" rating... :O

Hypochondriac
June 14th, 2007, 12:56 PM
.... let's steer this discussion back into the "G" rating... :O

Ok On-topic

Anyone have figures from "The Dice is Cast" and Ori episode where they first tried to stop the supergate? I believe those episodes have the highest yields on the respective shows.

Evil_Genius_McKay
June 14th, 2007, 12:56 PM
Even better his kid q, he have the replicators show up and remove everyones uniforms


Wow somebody's mind is wandering! There is that Star Trek episode "The Naked Now."

Evil_Genius_McKay
June 14th, 2007, 12:58 PM
Ok On-topic

Anyone have figures from "The Dice is Cast" and Ori episode where they first tried to stop the supergate? I believe those episodes have the highest yields on the respective shows.


Sadly no.

darth_timon
June 14th, 2007, 12:59 PM
Let's compare the best yields from both shows.

For Star Trek that would be the episode "The Dice is Cast" what would it be for Star Gate? Unending? or That episode when the Ori were first trying to make a supergate?

'The Die is Cast' shows some impressive pyrotechnics but no visible signs of disruption to the planet's surface in the aftermath of the shots. 'Skin of Evil' shows an impressive fireball and then.... no sign of damage to the planet's surface. Neither episode actually supports high firepower for torpedoes, when you stop to look at planetary damage (or lack thereof).

Hypochondriac
June 14th, 2007, 01:01 PM
'The Die is Cast' shows some impressive pyrotechnics but no visible signs of disruption to the planet's surface in the aftermath of the shots. 'Skin of Evil' shows an impressive fireball and then.... no sign of damage to the planet's surface. Neither episode actually supports high firepower for torpedoes, when you stop to look at planetary damage (or lack thereof).

If you go by dialog then ignore the visual effects errors

Evil_Genius_McKay
June 14th, 2007, 01:10 PM
Ok I'm breaking out Skin of Evil to watch that.

Evil_Genius_McKay
June 14th, 2007, 01:18 PM
I just remebered that the Borg Sphere on Star Trek First Contact shot what appeared to be several torpedo like shots at the surface and the damage we saw wasn't even close to gigaton scale, probably only a fraction at most. Given the high level of tech the Borg possess if they could wouldn't they have nuked the area? They were certaintly trying to kill everyone. I know they weren't quantum torpedos but still...

Of course then the Enterprise shoots the sphere with only three to four quantum torps and totally annihilates it.

Ugh.

PG15
June 14th, 2007, 01:21 PM
I'm guessing the Borg wanted to 1). stop First Contact and 2). not screw around with the timeline TOO badly.

And why would the Quantum torpedoes need to be calibrated to super-high energies when only a few of them at low energies could blow up the sphere?

Buba uognarf
June 14th, 2007, 01:25 PM
'The Die is Cast' shows some impressive pyrotechnics but no visible signs of disruption to the planet's surface in the aftermath of the shots. 'Skin of Evil' shows an impressive fireball and then.... no sign of damage to the planet's surface. Neither episode actually supports high firepower for torpedoes, when you stop to look at planetary damage (or lack thereof).

You keep repeating the same arguements against these cases but the fact remains your arguements are stupid no offense. We never saw the damage at ground level but both shower huge explosions the yields are calculated from the size of the blast.

What lack of planetary damage? Die is cast shows huge explosions followed by a statement saying 30% of the crust is destroyed and Skin of evil shows a big fireball.

Phantom6
June 14th, 2007, 01:33 PM
ok for one... Icy neko for some one with the word 'icy' in their name your plainly not.

Now back to the matter at hand The USS defiant versus the daedelus, I vote for the defiant.

Mow here's the reasoning, for one despite what everyone wants to beleive the defiant was not designed as a borg killer but instead it was there to be a escort craft.

No.


I'm sorry but no. The Defiant was the first class of ship ever designed PURELY as a warship. She was OFFICIALLY classified as an Escort (One reason being that the Federation/Starfleet didn't want to get into the habit or reputation of building ships designed solely for war), the original intention for the Defiant Class of ships was to combat the Borg threat.

Not in single combat but as part of an armada of ONLY Defiant Class ships.

Picture the Borg cube as a Tarantula, The Defiant is a Fire Ant.

A single Fire ant against a tarantula is going to do little more than annoy the arachnid.

But an entire armada of Defiant class vessels, an ARMY OF FIRE ANTS is capable of killing a Tarantula.


That was the original intention of the Defiant class, but when the borg threat was deemed not urgent and the problems with the Defiant Prototype came to light (Over powered, what do they expect with a Sovereign Class Ships Engines in a tiny ship like that?) it was mothballed until Sisko requested it because he knew it "Had teeth".


Most of this is stated in the first episode of DS9 that the Defiant appears in.

IcyNeko
June 14th, 2007, 01:44 PM
Actually, according to memory alpha, she was an escort battleship. Her size made her an escort ship. Her firepower made her a battleship.

Evil_Genius_McKay
June 14th, 2007, 01:57 PM
I have to agree with Phantom here. Everything I've read supports this it does have the firepower of a battleship though and the size of an escort so your right there.

I don't know about Defiant but there are weapons capable of mass annihilation in Star Trek as well like that probe that wiped out Florida in "Enterprise." The devastation from that was crazy.

Special Effects have advanced a lot since first season of Star Trek so I would go more with what they said the torpedo did than what it actually looked like.

Buba uognarf
June 14th, 2007, 02:00 PM
I have to agree with Phantom here. Everything I've read supports this it does have the firepower of a battleship though and the size of an escort so your right there.

I don't know about Defiant but there are weapons capable of mass annihilation in Star Trek as well like that probe that wiped out Florida in "Enterprise." The devastation from that was crazy.

Special Effects have advanced a lot since first season of Star Trek so I would go more with what they said the torpedo did than what it actually looked like.

well the larger probes could crack moons and destroy planets so it's pretty clear that ST are more powerful then some like to admitt.

Phantom6
June 14th, 2007, 02:18 PM
Actually, according to memory alpha, she was an escort battleship. Her size made her an escort ship. Her firepower made her a battleship.


Yeah I'm going by what was said on the show.

IcyNeko
June 14th, 2007, 02:19 PM
So is memory alpha.

darth_timon
June 14th, 2007, 02:21 PM
You keep repeating the same arguements against these cases but the fact remains your arguements are stupid no offense. We never saw the damage at ground level but both shower huge explosions the yields are calculated from the size of the blast.

What lack of planetary damage? Die is cast shows huge explosions followed by a statement saying 30% of the crust is destroyed and Skin of evil shows a big fireball.

Without wanting to sound rude, use your eyes. In SG1 'Beach Head' we see a huge fireball and we also cut to a scene on the planet's surface that shows the molten remains of the surface. The fireball was nearly 100km in diametre, which translates as a event measuring in at 800GT minimum.

'The Die is Cast' shows shockwaves but no fireballs from the points of impact and when those shockwaves have passed there is zero indication of damage to the planet's surface. 'Skin of Evil' has a fireball, but again, when that clears, zero damage to the planet below.

TNG 'Pegasus' actually fits in well with the visuals from both episodes, portraying multi-kiloton firepower at best.

KRiZ
June 14th, 2007, 02:25 PM
No.


I'm sorry but no. The Defiant was the first class of ship ever designed PURELY as a warship. She was OFFICIALLY classified as an Escort (One reason being that the Federation/Starfleet didn't want to get into the habit or reputation of building ships designed solely for war), the original intention for the Defiant Class of ships was to combat the Borg threat.

Not in single combat but as part of an armada of ONLY Defiant Class ships.

Picture the Borg cube as a Tarantula, The Defiant is a Fire Ant.

A single Fire ant against a tarantula is going to do little more than annoy the arachnid.

But an entire armada of Defiant class vessels, an ARMY OF FIRE ANTS is capable of killing a Tarantula.


That was the original intention of the Defiant class, but when the borg threat was deemed not urgent and the problems with the Defiant Prototype came to light (Over powered, what do they expect with a Sovereign Class Ships Engines in a tiny ship like that?) it was mothballed until Sisko requested it because he knew it "Had teeth".


Most of this is stated in the first episode of DS9 that the Defiant appears in.

This is true, the defiant is a warship, designed to combat the Borg, this was stated in the episode the ship was introduced.

the reason it was so highly powered is so it could have the amount of weaponry on it, 4 forward facing pulse phasers, quantum torpedos (only otherwise seen on a sovereign class).

It was designed to be agile and fast with a big punch so that the borg would have trouble tracking it combined with a small crew compliment to run it (as it was designed for WAR)

Buba uognarf
June 14th, 2007, 02:30 PM
Without wanting to sound rude, use your eyes. In SG1 'Beach Head' we see a huge fireball and we also cut to a scene on the planet's surface that shows the molten remains of the surface. The fireball was nearly 100km in diametre, which translates as a event measuring in at 800GT minimum.

'The Die is Cast' shows shockwaves but no fireballs from the points of impact and when those shockwaves have passed there is zero indication of damage to the planet's surface. 'Skin of Evil' has a fireball, but again, when that clears, zero damage to the planet below.

TNG 'Pegasus' actually fits in well with the visuals from both episodes, portraying multi-kiloton firepower at best.

To create the shockwaves would take tremendous power though!!! Why can you not understand that? Everyone who's ever done calculations on that episode will tell you the weapons were powerful fitting the dialogue. For both these cases we can blame poor effects for lack of ground level visual damage but the intention was clear big blasts showing damage.

On the subject of the die is cast how can you create shockwaves spreading for hundreds of kilometers without a huge amount of energy? And in skin of Evil how can you create a huge fireball without a lot of explosive force? Answer those questions or concede the point.

darth_timon
June 14th, 2007, 02:44 PM
To create the shockwaves would take tremendous power though!!! Why can you not understand that? Everyone who's ever done calculations on that episode will tell you the weapons were powerful fitting the dialogue. For both these cases we can blame poor effects for lack of ground level visual damage but the intention was clear big blasts showing damage.

On the subject of the die is cast how can you create shockwaves spreading for hundreds of kilometers without a huge amount of energy? And in skin of Evil how can you create a huge fireball without a lot of explosive force? Answer those questions or concede the point.

I don't have to concede anything. The onus is on you to explain how supposedly powerful events like those can leave behind NO VISIBLE DAMAGE whatsoever. It's plainly impossible to possess firepower to the levels you are suggesting and yet see NO visual effects at all. I'm not going to dismiss the visuals because even back in the days of 'Skin of Evil' it was entirely possible to show a crater or some other sign of impact damage. In 'The Die is Cast' there is NO excuse, as by that time special effects had advanced considerably.

the_dark_light
June 15th, 2007, 05:41 AM
I don't have to concede anything. The onus is on you to explain how supposedly powerful events like those can leave behind NO VISIBLE DAMAGE whatsoever. It's plainly impossible to possess firepower to the levels you are suggesting and yet see NO visual effects at all. I'm not going to dismiss the visuals because even back in the days of 'Skin of Evil' it was entirely possible to show a crater or some other sign of impact damage. In 'The Die is Cast' there is NO excuse, as by that time special effects had advanced considerably.

It may be impossible, but then again we're talking about TV. Reality isn't always a factor. Certainly you're right, the effects need to make a scene look more believable, it's hard to enjoy something that looks plain wrong. With shows like these, the effects can make or break a scene.

Evil_Genius_McKay
June 15th, 2007, 12:01 PM
It may be impossible, but then again we're talking about TV. Reality isn't always a factor. Certainly you're right, the effects need to make a scene look more believable, it's hard to enjoy something that looks plain wrong. With shows like these, the effects can make or break a scene.


Again we're talking about SFX that were made using models primarily not CGI. But I know what you mean.

Buba uognarf
June 15th, 2007, 02:11 PM
I don't have to concede anything. The onus is on you to explain how supposedly powerful events like those can leave behind NO VISIBLE DAMAGE whatsoever. It's plainly impossible to possess firepower to the levels you are suggesting and yet see NO visual effects at all. I'm not going to dismiss the visuals because even back in the days of 'Skin of Evil' it was entirely possible to show a crater or some other sign of impact damage. In 'The Die is Cast' there is NO excuse, as by that time special effects had advanced considerably.

what are you on about? We clearly saw huge explosions requiring huge amounts og energy to generate. You we saw explosions from space we just didn't see anything ground level. It's a flawed point we never saw a ground level shot so you can't say actually damage was minimal all you saw were HUGE explosions. We're going in circles.

Ok explain to be how huge explosions can be created without huge energy because that's what we saw big explosions unless you can offer an explanation on how kiloton weapons made explosions comparable to high megatons and even Tetratons in the case of TDIC you don't have a point.

Integrabyte
June 15th, 2007, 02:20 PM
Does this topic refer to Caldwell's ship? "Daedulas"?

TKG
June 15th, 2007, 05:09 PM
And even if torpedoes are in the high megaton range, there is simply no way for the Defiant to stand up to a gatebuster. The gatebuster was between 800 gigatons and over 1,000 gigatons. No Federation ship on Star Trek has ever approached this level of firepower.

three words: Tri Cobalt Warhead.

darth_timon
June 16th, 2007, 02:32 AM
what are you on about? We clearly saw huge explosions requiring huge amounts og energy to generate. You we saw explosions from space we just didn't see anything ground level. It's a flawed point we never saw a ground level shot so you can't say actually damage was minimal all you saw were HUGE explosions. We're going in circles.

Ok explain to be how huge explosions can be created without huge energy because that's what we saw big explosions unless you can offer an explanation on how kiloton weapons made explosions comparable to high megatons and even Tetratons in the case of TDIC you don't have a point.

Think about it. If the explosions were in the gigaton range, why did we not see one single shred of damage on the planet's surface?

The fireballs and shockwaves we saw could have been generated by some kind of funky unknown effects for all we know. What we DO know is that there was no visible damage to the planets' surfaces in either example you cited. How therefore can the damage be in the high megaton or gigaton range, let alone the teraton range?

Buba uognarf
June 16th, 2007, 03:13 AM
Think about it. If the explosions were in the gigaton range, why did we not see one single shred of damage on the planet's surface?

The fireballs and shockwaves we saw could have been generated by some kind of funky unknown effects for all we know. What we DO know is that there was no visible damage to the planets' surfaces in either example you cited. How therefore can the damage be in the high megaton or gigaton range, let alone the teraton range?

We didn't see the planet at ground level though so you have nothing to base your claims of no damage on. We saw that huge damage was caused from orbit.

So you're dismissing the huge fireballs and shockwaves by saying they were caused by some funky effect and the weapons themselves were actually very weak? :rolleyes:

SG-25CSAR
June 16th, 2007, 10:52 AM
Think about it. If the explosions were in the gigaton range, why did we not see one single shred of damage on the planet's surface?

The fireballs and shockwaves we saw could have been generated by some kind of funky unknown effects for all we know. What we DO know is that there was no visible damage to the planets' surfaces in either example you cited. How therefore can the damage be in the high megaton or gigaton range, let alone the teraton range?

It could be that the special effects people did not get the memo...

Hypochondriac
June 17th, 2007, 10:13 AM
Whats rated higher Canon or Dialog? I always assumed the Dialog was rated higher. Take the Dialog from Dice is cast and forget about the visual goofs.

darth_timon
June 17th, 2007, 02:39 PM
We didn't see the planet at ground level though so you have nothing to base your claims of no damage on. We saw that huge damage was caused from orbit.

So you're dismissing the huge fireballs and shockwaves by saying they were caused by some funky effect and the weapons themselves were actually very weak? :rolleyes:

We SEE the surface of the planet AFTER the fireball in 'Skin of Evil' and the ground beneath that apparently impressive explosion is NO DIFFERENT to how it appeared BEFORE the explosion. How can you even BEGIN to argue for impressive firepower when there is NO VISIBLE DAMAGE TO THE PLANET?

Likewise with 'The Die is Cast'. We see the planet's surface prior to the attack, we see fancy shockwaves pass across the surface as weapons are being fired, and does the planet's surface look damaged at all? No, it doesn't. The weaponry in both 'Skin of Evil' and 'The Die is Cast' is all flash and no bang.

Xicer
June 17th, 2007, 03:25 PM
What is the point of these threads anyway? Everyone always seems to get into one big, pointless argument that lasts for months without ever a resolution.

Evil_Genius_McKay
June 17th, 2007, 07:42 PM
What is the point of these threads anyway? Everyone always seems to get into one big, pointless argument that lasts for months without ever a resolution.

The point is so that we have something utterly pointless to argue about!:D

Besides would you rather be in one of the shipper threads. I know I wouldn't.

Xicer
June 17th, 2007, 07:58 PM
lol you got me there!

Hypochondriac
June 18th, 2007, 04:22 AM
Still waiting for an answer, whats rated higher Dialog or visual effects?

darth_timon
June 18th, 2007, 09:32 AM
Still waiting for an answer, whats rated higher Dialog or visual effects?

Depends on how you plan to examine the events on screen. If you suspend your disbelief for a moment and consider the shows to be 'real', as though you are watching a documentary rather than fiction, then it's best to favour the visual evidence.

Mister Oragahn
June 18th, 2007, 04:42 PM
But if you consider that the VFX department didn't make the correct choices, based on behind the scene descriptions and the script, it's sometimes better to go with what was intended, since dialogue and visuals both end in the episode at the same time.

The better thing to do, however, is simply to look away.