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View Full Version : CotG/Avenger 2.0 Inconsistancy and a possible soultion!



Crazedwraith
May 4th, 2004, 10:30 AM
Right in CotG, Dannyboi says he's tried many many combinations using but couldn't make a connection because if steller drift right?

Yet in "Avenger 2.0" We learn that DHDs update each other to compensate for stellar drift. Dun-dun-duuuunn! It doesn't make sense!!

Yet i was watching the movie and to the best of my knowledge we never see a DHD, this coupled wit hthe fact danny appears to have move the 'gate to a different part of the pyramid seems to suggest he found the DHD it a different part of the pyraimd and move the gate to it, this suggest the DHD was not hooked up to the Gate and therefore didn't receive the coraaltive updates for a while after daniel recoonected it, hence it didn't work.

So whatja thin? Any major flaws? Minor flaws? or is it all just completely wrong?

Teal'c
May 4th, 2004, 11:00 AM
Ugh, how many times does this have to come up. Watch CotG, Daniel says:"Well, I tried the same here and it didn't work either. But I figured the destinations I tried are either destroyed or... buried, but some of them somewhere must still exist." He couldn't connect, not because of stellar drift, but because of what he said.

And there was no DHD in the movie because Brad & Jonathan created the concept of the DHD for the show.

Crazedwraith
May 4th, 2004, 11:15 AM
Ugh, how many times does this have to come up. Watch CotG, Daniel says:"Well, I tried the same here and it didn't work either. But I figured the destinations I tried are either destroyed or... buried, but some of them somewhere must still exist." He couldn't connect, not because of stellar drift, but because of what he said.

And there was no DHD in the movie because Brad & Jonathan created the concept of the DHD for the show.


What are the chances of Danny both getting a adress that should work and dialing one that was bired at the same time? Pretty slim. Aside from the nebuloud issue it might not be stealler drift that caused the gate not to work any other problems.

And as for the DHD issue, well the film is still cannon right? It *happened* right? I'm looking for a In-universe answer not the "its just a movie" cop-out. We don't see a DHD in the film we do in CotG DHDs can't miraculously appear from no where can they? So this leaves 2 possiblities:
1) The DHD was supposed to be there in the movie we just did'nt see it on camera.

2) It was in a different part of the pyriamd and Danny & co moved their gate to it.

I favour 2) seeing as it would also explain why the gate is in a differnet room in the movie than it was in CotGs.

Teal'c
May 4th, 2004, 11:19 AM
What are the chances of Danny both getting a adress that should work and dialing one that was bired at the same time? Pretty slim. Aside from the nebuloud issue it might not be stealler drift that caused the gate not to work any other problems.

And as for the DHD issue, well the film is still cannon right? It *happened* right? I'm looking for a In-universe answer not the "its just a movie" cop-out. We don't see a DHD in the film we do in CotG DHDs can't miraculously appear from no where can they? So this leaves 2 possiblities:
1) The DHD was supposed to be there in the movie we just did'nt see it on camera.

2) It was in a different part of the pyriamd and Danny & co moved their gate to it.

I favour 2) seeing as it would also explain why the gate is in a differnet room in the movie than it was in CotGs.
Firstly, the movie is not canon, because there's no way in hell someone can say "Oh, Ra had an Asgard body!!! Look how smart I am that I figured that out!" again without me going on a violent rampage :P

Anyway, what's this dialling a gate that should work and is burried? What do you mean? He just dialled some addresses, none of them worked... I don't know what these odds are though...

Crazedwraith
May 4th, 2004, 11:29 AM
I was basically saying: how many gates are buried? Comapare to the number of gates out there? Seems unlikely that every one of the ones he dialed were either not actually addesses or buried, surly he really should have been able ot get a connection through sheer chance.


As for the film not being cannon, howe can it not be? Obviously its a lower tier cannon (meaning where it and SG-1 directly contradict we believe SG-1 is the "truth") but it still *happened* im the SG-1 universe otherwise what where Hammond and O'Neill yapping on about in "CotG"? Hoew did Jack know Danny? Etc. Etc.

Mr Prophet
May 4th, 2004, 12:39 PM
I was basically saying: how many gates are buried? Comapare to the number of gates out there? Seems unlikely that every one of the ones he dialed were either not actually addesses or buried, surly he really should have been able ot get a connection through sheer chance.


The addresses on the Abydos map were out of date. Sam fed the images into the computer, which then generated the new addresses based on the stellar drift calculations. That's why Sam says that they will be getting a trickle of addresses each week, which were supplemented by addresses which Teal'c knew.

By Season 8 they also have the extra addresses from the Ancients' archive, which presumably were corrected when Jack entered them, based on the knowledge downloaded into his brain.

Crazedwraith
May 4th, 2004, 01:06 PM
The addresses on the Abydos map were out of date. Sam fed the images into the computer, which then generated the new addresses based on the stellar drift calculations. That's why Sam says that they will be getting a trickle of addresses each week, which were supplemented by addresses which Teal'c knew.

By Season 8 they also have the extra addresses from the Ancients' archive, which presumably were corrected when Jack entered them, based on the knowledge downloaded into his brain.


All of which means Dick to Danniel inbetween the movie and CotG. When he was randomly dialing whit h DHD that *should* compensate for stellar drift.

Mr Prophet
May 4th, 2004, 01:14 PM
All of which means Dick to Danniel inbetween the movie and CotG. When he was randomly dialing whit h DHD that *should* compensate for stellar drift.

There are almost two and a half million combinations of the Stargate. Random dialling is unlikely to turn anything up, even given that Daniel knew the point of origin (without that knowledge the number is about 78 million).

What he was doing was dialling invalid addresses from a Goa'uld source.

Teal'c
May 4th, 2004, 03:00 PM
The addresses on the Abydos map were out of date. Sam fed the images into the computer, which then generated the new addresses based on the stellar drift calculations. That's why Sam says that they will be getting a trickle of addresses each week, which were supplemented by addresses which Teal'c knew.

By Season 8 they also have the extra addresses from the Ancients' archive, which presumably were corrected when Jack entered them, based on the knowledge downloaded into his brain.
Nope, Avenger 2.0 and Lost City show that the addresses stay the same, it's just the co-ordinates the symbols target that change.

Daniel probably treked out to the catouche room, took 5 random addresses, wrote them down, went back, tried to dial, figured 5 didn't work... maybe i'll try next week, then next week Jack shows up :P

Crazedwraith
May 5th, 2004, 07:35 AM
There are almost two and a half million combinations of the Stargate. Random dialling is unlikely to turn anything up, even given that Daniel knew the point of origin (without that knowledge the number is about 78 million).

What he was doing was dialling invalid addresses from a Goa'uld source.


Oops your right, but the reason according ot you was that Stellar drfit meant the adresses where uselss, hence the contradiction with Avenger that i was trying to explian anyway so you've just proven my point for me.

spg_1983
May 5th, 2004, 08:30 AM
All of which means Dick to Danniel inbetween the movie and CotG. When he was randomly dialing whit h DHD that *should* compensate for stellar drift.
thats assuming that its recieved the corrlative updates. daniel says he discovered it after jack left the first time so yeah it wasnt hooked up to the gate to recieve the updates. sam says in Avenger that they theorises that the DHD's do corrlative updates every hundred years or so. daniel had unburied the DHD and hooked it up(although how i dont know since there are no wires or anything connecting the gate and DHD, but thats a different discussion) a between the first abydos mission and when jack came back, which was just over a year right? so the DHD hadnt been updated yet. thats why he couldnt connect anywhere

System Lord Anubis
May 5th, 2004, 08:45 AM
Firstly, the movie is not canon, because there's no way in hell someone can say "Oh, Ra had an Asgard body!!! Look how smart I am that I figured that out!" again without me going on a violent rampage :P

Anyway, what's this dialling a gate that should work and is burried? What do you mean? He just dialled some addresses, none of them worked... I don't know what these odds are though...
Actually I discovered in the RPG Sourcebook for the Goa'uld that it is suggested Ra had taken one as a host to escape from his Asgard pursuers. I'll type it up:


"9,177 B.C. - Ra, badly injured, flees Asgard pursuers into an alien system. There he finds a lush world inhabited by a large population of primitives that bow to his divinity. This world - Earth - contains a vast number of natives that are suitable for blending. Transferring his essence to a human host, Ra is infused with new vigor and life. He quickly determines that these humans provide a near-ideal host for the Goa'uld. Using a Stargate he brought with him, Ra claims the world of the Tauri as his own." - (SG-1: Living Gods RPG Sourcebook, 9)
As in Star Wars, that's a cannon source unless they contradict it on the show. I believe it is hinted at that he came to Earth with an Asgard host because his Unas body was injured. Remember Unas didn't work well with sarcophagus technology and they were dying from it. That's why they changed hosts to be humans. I just felt the need to address that because it was a long-standing issue on here a while back.

spg_1983
May 5th, 2004, 08:52 AM
Actually I discovered in the RPG Sourcebook for the Goa'uld that it is suggested Ra had taken one as a host to escape from his Asgard pursuers. I'll type it up:


As in Star Wars, that's a cannon source unless they contradict it on the show. I believe it is hinted at that he came to Earth with an Asgard host because his Unas body was injured. Remember Unas didn't work well with sarcophagus technology and they were dying from it. That's why they changed hosts to be humans. I just felt the need to address that because it was a long-standing issue on here a while back.
no where in the show has it ever suggested Ra had taken an asgard as a host. in the movie he sorta looked like an asgard with teeth because that was E & D's idea. Show cannon overrides the movie. and the RPG has never and is not a cannon source. just because they say something in the book and its not directly contradicted in the show doesnt make it cannon. only stuff stated in the show or specifically said by the PTB is cannon. otherwise anyone could make up whatever the wanted and claim it was cannon.

Flyboy
May 5th, 2004, 09:09 AM
That whole thing with RA when he's in the explosion (assuming you mean that is when you see the Asgard form) I always put down to the explosion. It is most likely, that that was the original intended form of the Goa'uld as we do not see nor here mention of the snakes.

Mr Prophet
May 5th, 2004, 09:09 AM
Well, in the movie, he was a kind of glowy, flying Roswell thing that had merged with the boy rather than a snake in his noggin.

I think that in CotG the addresses were still treated pretty much coordinates, while by The Lost City they are clearly not only more like the SGC's reference numbers, but in fact relate directly to the Ancient name for the world.

System Lord Anubis
May 5th, 2004, 09:16 AM
It's from an official source. Therefore should be aknowledged as cannon. There's a difference if it's coming from a fan (see way above at the start of this thread) or if it's official publication. The SG-1 RPG books are official publications and therefore are cannon. TPTB aren't going to explain every little thing like we consider they have lives...we don't. :p

Besides, that's where the RPG books come in most RPG sourebooks are widely aknowledged as a cannon resource. Don't like it? Tell that to the people in the Star Wars community or any other community for that matter. They all aknowledge sourcebooks as being cannon material.

Mr Prophet
May 5th, 2004, 09:20 AM
It's from an official source. Therefore should be aknowledged as cannon. There's a difference if it's coming from a fan (see way above at the start of this thread) or if it's official publication. The SG-1 RPG books are official publications and therefore are cannon.

They're a licensed publication, not official. The PTB have no input on the SGC roleplaying game, so it's no more canon than the licensed novels will be.

System Lord Anubis
May 5th, 2004, 09:24 AM
I editted my reply. Please see above. The difference between official and officially licensed is? To me it means the same exact thing. You can be skeptical if you'd like, but have you even got the books or read them? If so, have you noticed the detail it goes into?

spg_1983
May 5th, 2004, 09:32 AM
It's from an official source. Therefore should be aknowledged as cannon. There's a difference if it's coming from a fan (see way above at the start of this thread) or if it's official publication. The SG-1 RPG books are official publications and therefore are cannon. TPTB aren't going to explain every little thing like we consider they have lives...we don't. :p

Besides, that's where the RPG books come in most RPG sourebooks are widely aknowledged as a cannon resource. Don't like it? Tell that to the people in the Star Wars community or any other community for that matter. They all aknowledge sourcebooks as being cannon material.

no being licensed doesnt mean its from an official source. the writers and creators of the show have nothing to do with the creation of the books. being licensed just says that they have permision to use the stargate universe and characters, it doesnt make what they say cannon. the only way something is cannon is if it is said in the show or comes directly from TPTB saying "this is cannon". i love star wars and have read all the novels but im not really into the community. if in the Star Wars community they accept the source books as cannon thats cool for them. with stargate the only source for cannon is the show. i mean come on we have enough problems with people pointing out the differences between the movie and show, we don't need another source of misinformation to muddy the waters

System Lord Anubis
May 5th, 2004, 09:37 AM
I shall reliterate. :)


You can be skeptical if you'd like, but have you even got the books or read them? If so, have you noticed the detail it goes into?

Mr Prophet
May 5th, 2004, 09:38 AM
I editted my reply. Please see above. The difference between official and officially licensed is? To me it means the same exact thing. You can be skeptical if you'd like, but have you even got the books or read them? If so, have you noticed the detail it goes into?

Official means that it's a production of the PTB, vetted by the series creative authorities and thus canon. Licensed means that someone - in this case Alderac Entertainment Group - is granted a license to publish their own material, incorporating the series' intellectual property. Licensed material is not canon because it is entirely unvetted.

Star Wars is a unique case, and is practically the only franchise on the market for which almost every licensed product is produced under sufficient control to be treated as canon. Even then, there are two separate canons - movie and expanded universe, which don't agree since the prequels' treatment of clones thus far contradicts the infinitely superior Heir to the Empire - and three if you include Marvel's Star Wars comics (a licensed product).

I haven't got the books, but I have read parts of them. I haven't bought them because I disagree with them on certain key points, including:

1) Ashraks are described in the core book as renegade Goa'uld; in the series they are explicitly the assassins of the System Lords, not mercenaries.

2) The core rules make no class distinction between 'scientist' and 'scholar'.

System Lord Anubis
May 5th, 2004, 09:44 AM
Alright, but I consider the RPG books for SG-1 cannon though. Seeing how it's the only officially licensed thing out there that gives explinations for things that aren't completely fan created. (I.E. The movie taking place in an alternate universe.)

spg_1983
May 5th, 2004, 09:55 AM
Alright, but I consider the RPG books for SG-1 cannon though. Seeing how it's the only officially licensed thing out there that gives explinations for things that aren't completely fan created. (I.E. The movie taking place in an alternate universe.)
of course you can choose to believe whatever you wish, but technically the the RPG books and therefore their explinations are fan creations as well

Hostile
May 5th, 2004, 09:57 AM
Surely any inconsistency is explained by the fact that it was the idle day-dream of an incredibly useless scientist?

Flyboy
May 5th, 2004, 10:00 AM
Let's stay away from alternate universes k? It's a cheap and easy escape!

spg_1983
May 5th, 2004, 10:03 AM
Let's stay away from alternate universes k? It's a cheap and easy escape!
lol but AU explains everything!!!!!!!!!!!

Crazedwraith
May 5th, 2004, 11:49 AM
thats assuming that its recieved the corrlative updates. daniel says he discovered it after jack left the first time so yeah it wasnt hooked up to the gate to recieve the updates. sam says in Avenger that they theorises that the DHD's do corrlative updates every hundred years or so. daniel had unburied the DHD and hooked it up(although how i dont know since there are no wires or anything connecting the gate and DHD, but thats a different discussion) a between the first abydos mission and when jack came back, which was just over a year right? so the DHD hadnt been updated yet. thats why he couldnt connect anywhere

Oh for crying out loud thats the same theory i propsed in my ******* opening post!!!!!!!!

Crazedwraith
May 5th, 2004, 11:51 AM
Surely any inconsistency is explained by the fact that it was the idle day-dream of an incredibly useless scientist?
The only part of Avenger 2.0 thats a day dream is the cat-fight at the end, You don't beleive me? Wathc "Grace" where the al'kesh O'Neill stole in "avenger" id referenced as the source of the prommies new hyperdrive core.

spg_1983
May 5th, 2004, 01:07 PM
Oh for crying out loud thats the same theory i propsed in my ******* opening post!!!!!!!!
yes and you were correct, so i was basically agreeing with you

Crazedwraith
May 5th, 2004, 01:11 PM
yes and you were correct, so i was basically agreeing with you
:S Well you could have just said that!! :o

spg_1983
May 5th, 2004, 01:13 PM
:S Well you could have just said that!! :o
well when i wrote that particular post i wasnt remembering what you had said exactly in your first post, other wise i would have, sorry! :p

Teal'c
May 5th, 2004, 03:24 PM
Actually I discovered in the RPG Sourcebook for the Goa'uld that it is suggested Ra had taken one as a host to escape from his Asgard pursuers. I'll type it up:


As in Star Wars, that's a cannon source unless they contradict it on the show. I believe it is hinted at that he came to Earth with an Asgard host because his Unas body was injured. Remember Unas didn't work well with sarcophagus technology and they were dying from it. That's why they changed hosts to be humans. I just felt the need to address that because it was a long-standing issue on here a while back.
The RPG books are not, repeat, ARE NOT CANON!!!

They get so many things wrong, it's not funny. Have you read what they say about Jaffa? It's not canon because it's not in the show. That's what canon is. It's what's in the show. Can I say that Chevron Guy attends rodeos every week and cheats using a Zat? Because that's canon unless they contradict it in the show :P

Teal'c
May 5th, 2004, 03:28 PM
Alright, but I consider the RPG books for SG-1 cannon though. Seeing how it's the only officially licensed thing out there that gives explinations for things that aren't completely fan created. (I.E. The movie taking place in an alternate universe.)
Think what you want, but I don't want you spouting that nonscence as fact. :P

evan
May 5th, 2004, 04:37 PM
Someone refresh my memory, how did they dial the gate back to Earth in the movie if they didn't use a DHD?


I don't want you spouting that nonscence as fact. :P
As opposed to the rest of us, who are talking about solid scientific principles such as wormhole physics and stargate addresses. ;)

spg_1983
May 5th, 2004, 06:20 PM
Someone refresh my memory, how did they dial the gate back to Earth in the movie if they didn't use a DHD?
they never showed them actually dialing back home, its assumed they just did a manual dial

KayMan2k
May 5th, 2004, 08:32 PM
So whatja thin? Any major flaws? Minor flaws? or is it all just completely wrong?

... the DHD was buried and hidden during the first trip to Abidos. Unable to communicate with the gate, it was unable to obtain any system updates. The only reason that they were able to dial Earth again in the movie is because Ra's ship provided power to the gate and then they could have manually dialed.

Of course the real inconsistency is changes from the movie to the tv show. But why not find a good way to explain it?

spg_1983
May 5th, 2004, 08:36 PM
The only reason that they were able to dial Earth again in the movie is because Ra's ship provided power to the gate and then they could have manually dialed.
how do you figure Ra's ship provided power to the gate?

Cyrstal Skull Alien
May 6th, 2004, 08:12 AM
I think that in CotG the addresses were still treated pretty much coordinates, while by The Lost City they are clearly not only more like the SGC's reference numbers, but in fact relate directly to the Ancient name for the world.

I think that we discovered that the Ancients had given names to the symbols on the gate. And the serious of symbols gave it its name, not the other way around for example if a gate address was(Forgive the fact my keyboard has english letter and not gate symbols) F.R.A.N.C.E. the place would be called france because those were they symbols to enter and not the address was chosen because of the name of the place.


now when the the DHD update every hundred years or so, they say to each other, okay now this point in space has moved x in direction y from original position, so when the team enters the address for a planet the DHDs know where to go.