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LoneReconEagle
May 19th, 2007, 01:09 PM
Its been talked enough though different threads and not condensed into one.

Let's sort out the rumors and get the facts.


Why is Torri Higginson really leaving?
What is/are the real reason(s) Torri is leaving?
Did Torri at anypoint mention unhappiness or hinted she wanted to leave?
Was Torri forced off the show?
Was Amanda Tapping's contract signed before or after Torri's announcement for leaving?
What is Torri's episode contract for Season 4?
How will Torri's name appear in the credits, during the theme or show intro?


When posting/replying, please provide source links to the interview and/or the person's name & job description/title from your source.

Please no character, personal, or actor/ess bashing.

"The Truth Is Out There"

So, let's get to it...

sueKay
May 19th, 2007, 01:13 PM
* Why is Torri Higginson really leaving? - The writers basically stated 'changes needed to be made', Weir was one of those changes
* What is/are the real reason(s) Torri is leaving? - No-one knows
* Did Torri at anypoint mention unhappiness or hinted she wanted to leave? - She's been unhappy with the writing (Stargate official mag, latest ed)
* Was Torri forced off the show? - She was given the option to stay in a limited capacity, so technically no, but since she stayed on for a few eps this year it indicates she'd have preferred to stay for a full season.
* Was Amanda Tapping's contract signed before or after Torri's announcement for leaving? Before - it was a two year contract, signed at the start of s10
* What is Torri's episode contract for Season 4? - Recurring; Four episodes so far
* How will Torri's name appear in the credits, during the theme or show intro? Show into as either 'guest starring' or 'special guest appearance'.

parisindy
May 19th, 2007, 03:05 PM
* Why is Torri Higginson really leaving? - The writers basically stated 'changes needed to be made', Weir was one of those changes
* What is/are the real reason(s) Torri is leaving? - No-one knows
* Did Torri at anypoint mention unhappiness or hinted she wanted to leave? - She's been unhappy with the writing (Stargate official mag, latest ed)
* Was Torri forced off the show? - She was given the option to stay in a limited capacity, so technically no, but since she stayed on for a few eps this year it indicates she'd have preferred to stay for a full season.
* Was Amanda Tapping's contract signed before or after Torri's announcement for leaving? Before - it was a two year contract, signed at the start of s10
* What is Torri's episode contract for Season 4? - Recurring; Four episodes so far
* How will Torri's name appear in the credits, during the theme or show intro? Show into as either 'guest starring' or 'special guest appearance'.

thank you for that..those are the facts as how i understood them too :)

vaberella
May 19th, 2007, 03:53 PM
Its been talked enough though different threads and not condensed into one.

Let's sort out the rumors and get the facts.


Why is Torri Higginson really leaving?
What is/are the real reason(s) Torri is leaving?
Did Torri at anypoint mention unhappiness or hinted she wanted to leave?
Was Torri forced off the show?
Was Amanda Tapping's contract signed before or after Torri's announcement for leaving?
What is Torri's episode contract for Season 4?
How will Torri's name appear in the credits, during the theme or show intro?


When posting/replying, please provide source links to the interview and/or the person's name & job description/title from your source.
Please no character, personal, or actor/ess bashing.

"The Truth Is Out There"

So, let's get to it...

I'd just like to say, I made an effort to follow your request as to where the information came from, I doubt I need to list the title and role. The only questionable source since I never saw the interview---since I don't purchase the stargate mag myself, is Killdeer's post. But I doubt he'd quote incorrectly something that could easily be verified, so I accepted it as the truth. As for the links for JM's blog, you can look it up yourself, not too hard. It would take ages to get those link, when all you have to do is press on April or any respective month and click the find button under the Edit listing next to File, and find all posts. Or just click on the month an scroll down to the date. Hence the reason I listed the date to find the post if not the link.


Why is Torri Higginson really leaving?
[a] There is nothing to say she is actually leaving. All the information is thrown here or there. The role is put down to recurring, but we have no solid proof as to why.
Proof of Recurring status and really not knowing the extent of why she is recurring.

JM's Blog:
April 11, 2007

Anonymous #1 writes: “ Gee. I remember a bunch of people telling you they'd heard Torri was going to be in four episodes, and you ridiculed them. Looks like they were right all along. Their sources must be good.”

Answer: Given the law of averages, everyone eventually gets it right with a little luck - or in this case the proper timing. Last month, when rumors were flying that Weir would be appearing in four episodes, she had actually only been signed for three. Imagine if I’d made that announcement then? The fourth episode became a reality a couple of weeks ago after I pitched Torri the story and she agreed to come back do it. So, for now, four episodes as of the officially done deal - which closed yesterday.



What is/are the real reason(s) Torri is leaving?

Again, she is recurring, if that means leaving, I didn't know. If the question is why she is put to recurring no one knows since there has been no formal announcement as to why. TH did make a statement which you can find quoted by Killdeer from a stargatemag he didn't mention the issue date, but either it was June or July.
Here are his posts:
1. http://forum.gateworld.net/showpost.php?p=6634730&postcount=170
2. http://forum.gateworld.net/showpost.php?p=6634781&postcount=171
This should give some input for D.


[B]Did Torri at anypoint mention unhappiness or hinted she wanted to leave?

[c]Before the statement above? Not that I know of. Apparently she claims dissatisfaction with her characterization, rather than wanting to leave.


Was Torri forced off the show?

[d]Doubtful---her statement which I listed in B states that she was aware that changes were to be made, but was awaiting an answer. Gave me the impression anyone of the character players could have gone.


Was Amanda Tapping's contract signed before or after Torri's announcement for leaving?

[e] I have no idea about the contract but I can say that JM said continuous times on the blog that the decision of Weir was made long before Carter was asked to join.

JM's Blog:
1. April 29, 2007

Anonymous #5 writes: “So you have no problem with an equally capabale (or possibly more capable) actress being out of work so TPTB can keep their golden child in the franchise?”

Answer: I’ve already made it perfectly clear that the decision to bring Carter aboard was in no way connected to the decision regarding Weir. Nevertheless, feel free to cling to whatever wild, unsubstantiated theory makes you feel all warm, tingly and, oh yeah, superior.

2. March 8, 2007

Foolishpleasure writes: “If SG1 had been renewed, what would have happened to Carter? […]Would Weir still be a reg on SGA, or would she have been dumped no matter what?”

Answer: Re: Carter - not sure. Re: Weir - we would have made the same decision.

3. March 7, 2007

NightSpring writes: “Carter's a done deal. […] On the other hand, we could possibly handle that if we weren't also losing Torri. Why is there not room for both of them to do 14 or so episodes??”

Answer: At the risk of repeating myself, it’s not an either or situation. The addition of Carter wasn’t the reason we decided to take Weir in a new direction.

4. March 5, 2007

Anonymous #3 writes: “Don't you feel like you're selling out the Atlantis fans to make people who watched SG1 happy?”

Answer: Not at all. As I stated in a previous entry, the decision on the Weir character was made BEFORE the decision to bring in Carter. If it hadn’t been Carter, it would have been someone else.


What is Torri's episode contract for Season 4?
[f] Look at Answer A for a snippet on the details of Torri's contract. And currently it is remaining at 4, until/if JM makes a new announcement once all the eps of the season are written and cleared.


How will Torri's name appear in the credits, during the theme or show intro?
[G] For the last detail I'm not certain, but I will use logical deduction. I guess she'd be listed the same as a guest star, since she's no longer a regular. Directly after they list the title of the episode---as they did for Rainbow Sun Francks in Lost Boys/The Hive--so it would be Torri Higginson, then David Nykl and Kavan Smith then anyone else who shows up the ep. It seems it's done in alphabetical order if you watch any of the eps. So she might come second if there is another guest star who has a last name that begins with a letter before H. There is no special title like "Guest Star" given, just the name listed after the title.

parisindy
May 19th, 2007, 04:45 PM
can jm be trusted? i personally wouldn't trust anything he says in that blog as truth. Sure some things are but i can't see as all being facts.

PG15
May 19th, 2007, 04:47 PM
Do you have any evidence pointing to him NOT telling the truth?

I mean, you're free to think he's lying, but you should be able to, say, point out past instances when that has happened. I'm willing to trust him because I've never seen him purposefully lie about the show.

Wraith_Boy
May 19th, 2007, 04:53 PM
can jm be trusted? i personally wouldn't trust anything he says in that blog as truth. Sure some things are but i can't see as all being facts.

Why would he need to lie?

It doesn't make any bit of difference to him. He's shown before that he can take stick & doesn't mind offending people with his comments.

He's plainly said that PM won't be getting his 3rd episode as was originally planned. He's also stated Ford won't be appearing in S4, even saying that he maybe is dead.

If he was trying to keep everyone sweet, then he wouldn't have peeved off the Beckett fans by specifically saying he won't be getting his 3rd ep.The same to the Ford fans knowing that it'll be at leeast S5 (if ever) they get to see him back on the show again. If he wanted to keep everyone sweet for the time being, why not simply say that he can't comment & you'll need to wait & see for yourselves. Just like he did when asked about Teyla's pregnancy arc etc.

Again he has nothing to lose. People that read his blog, people that come here are only a few 1000. Internet fandom make up a small fraction of the overall Stargate viewership.

vaberella
May 19th, 2007, 04:54 PM
can jm be trusted? i personally wouldn't trust anything he says in that blog as truth. Sure some things are but i can't see as all being facts.

He's the show runner and further more, never have I had the displeasure of having him lie to me. Lastly I doubt he'd lie since people would call him out on it. You, sueKay, Killdeer, PG15, TH, myself and anyone else who doesn't know the "real" bureaucratic goings on cannot be trusted when we say something. He on the other hand...he has access to those details. So if he gives us a bit of information, I'm bound to agree that it's confirmation--since I can't prove otherwise.

parisindy
May 19th, 2007, 05:08 PM
Do you have any evidence pointing to him NOT telling the truth?

I mean, you're free to think he's lying, but you should be able to, say, point out past instances when that has happened. I'm willing to trust him because I've never seen him purposefully lie about the show.

no but alot of what he has said is not exact clear and cut and lot of people are jumping to conclusions. As well as he doesn't want to give it all away, i wouldn't put it past him to throw out a few red herrings. that is all

PG15
May 19th, 2007, 05:16 PM
Ok yeah, that's one thing JM excels at (the being-vague thing). However, most of what he said that has been used as evidence has been pretty straightforward.

Agent_Dark
May 19th, 2007, 05:24 PM
can jm be trusted? i personally wouldn't trust anything he says in that blog as truth. Sure some things are but i can't see as all being facts.

I'm pretty sure he's a far more reliable source of information that a fan is. Especially fans that are already biased in their dislike for the changes.

parisindy
May 19th, 2007, 05:30 PM
I'm pretty sure he's a far more reliable source of information that a fan is. Especially fans that are already biased in their dislike for the changes.

ahhh yes thanks for making it personal, i suppose pro fans are completely unbiast right ;)

Agent_Dark
May 19th, 2007, 05:35 PM
ahhh yes thanks for making it personal, i suppose pro fans are completely unbiast right ;)

Nup, but then again the 'pro fans' aren't coming up with massive conspiracy theories on why something is happening. And what's so personal about it? That I'm not convinced at all by a clearly biased fan's views of what's really going on? It's exactly the same thing that happened in the anti-season 10 thread, which I have exactly the same opinion about.

ps. you need to shake this 'us vs them' mentality you've got going on. As far as I can see the only people perpetuating it are... yourselves.

parisindy
May 19th, 2007, 05:49 PM
Nup, but then again the 'pro fans' aren't coming up with massive conspiracy theories on why something is happening. And what's so personal about it? That I'm not convinced at all by a clearly biased fan's views of what's really going on? It's exactly the same thing that happened in the anti-season 10 thread, which I have exactly the same opinion about.

ps. you need to shake this 'us vs them' mentality you've got going on. As far as I can see the only people perpetuating it are... yourselves.


Oh yeah thats rich! http://i34.photobucket.com/albums/d142/mercurys_winter/icon_roflmao.gif
best laugh i've had all day, i won't even bother refuting that its so full of baloney hehe

man there are so many fallacies there i wouldn't know where to start LMAO

ToasterOnFire
May 19th, 2007, 05:56 PM
Hmmm...I don't know quite what to think about the insider info from Joe M. and other PTBs. Showrunners are representatives of the show and their job is to "sell" the show. That often means putting a positive spin on news, leaving out or trivializing negative news, or not giving the whole story. They're very similar to politicians or PR agents for companies. Sometimes it can be hard to sift out what's true, what's not, and what's deliberately vague or twisted around to serve their interests. In other words, I take almost everything TPTB say about controversial show decisions/changes with a grain of salt. Not dismissing it outright, but not taking everything they say as the full and complete truth either. ;)

Look at this recent event with BSG - Olmos and Sackhoff were both reported to have said that s4 was going to be the last at a recent event, and Eick (the producer) immediately released a "maybe it is, maybe it isn't, Olmos has said this sort of stuff before (even though he hasn't)" kind of statement. Eick thought it was important enough to not confirm this negative news. So did he lie? Uncertain. Did he obfuscate the situation to make things seem not as negative and/or dire? Absolutely. Do I think that the Stargate PTB do this as needed when things get sticky? Yep.


ps. you need to shake this 'us vs them' mentality you've got going on. As far as I can see the only people perpetuating it are... yourselves.
Untrue. :)

Alipeeps
May 19th, 2007, 06:00 PM
My experience of people's willingness to believe what JM says is that it seems to be very much based on their personal preferences/preconceptions. You don't see people suggesting Joe is lying/being vague/deliberately misleading when the answers he gives fit with what the fans in question want to hear... but on the flip side of that, no matter how many times he states something as FACT, some fans are determined to believe that he is lying because the answer he is giving doesn't suit their particular opinion.

Personally, I feel he knows a heck of a lot more about everything stargate-related than any of the fans (I sure hope so, seeing as he's running the show) and we can speculate and guess as much as we like but it doesn't make it true. There are questions he cannot/will not/should not answer, no matter how often he is asked and there are some things over which he is deliberately vague.. and usually with good reason. But teasing us with "maybes" and "possiblies" etc is one thing, outright lying or misleading us, which some folks are claiming he is doing, is another. And without proof of that... I will err on the side of the benefit of the doubt. :)

Pegasus_SGA
May 19th, 2007, 06:01 PM
Its been talked enough though different threads and not condensed into one.

Let's sort out the rumors and get the facts.

Why is Torri Higginson really leaving?
What is/are the real reason(s) Torri is leaving?
Did Torri at anypoint mention unhappiness or hinted she wanted to leave?
Was Torri forced off the show?
Was Amanda Tapping's contract signed before or after Torri's announcement for leaving?
What is Torri's episode contract for Season 4?
How will Torri's name appear in the credits, during the theme or show intro?
When posting/replying, please provide source links to the interview and/or the person's name & job description/title from your source.

Please no character, personal, or actor/ess bashing.

"The Truth Is Out There"

So, let's get to it...

The only source this has come from is from my mind, so no linkies :D

The thing is, yes, people want to know the reason behind her leaving/reocurring, but the fact remains that we don't know. We can speculate till our hearts content. But until Torri, her manager or one of the cast producers provide reasons, we will NEVER know. No matter how much we want to. Let me put this question back to those who want to know the reasons behind her leaving. If you were in a very public job, and your hours were reduced, or you were asked to leave would you want the whole world knowing those reasons? I certainly wouldn't, we have no right as fans to ask those questions of an actor/actress even though it may pain us not knowing. It's a private matter between the individual and their boss.

To be honest even if we did know the answer, would that change the way people feel about the situation? I doubt it would. There is so much animosity over this, that people who normally post are hesitant about posting, for fear of getting their opinions blasted into a million pieces. And this is from ALL sides. And while I appreciate that people start these threads to find out answers, the bottom line is unless we hear the full reasons from a reliable source it is all speculative and only continues to drive on the hostility, the hurt or whatever it is people are feeling.

At the end of the day, it's just my opinion...

Agent_Dark
May 19th, 2007, 06:03 PM
Untrue. :)

Care to give examples of why then? People happy over the changes does not mean that they are doing it to spite you (paraphrasing some of the comments I've seen from the 'anti s4' people)

Mitchell82
May 19th, 2007, 06:07 PM
Its been talked enough though different threads and not condensed into one.

Let's sort out the rumors and get the facts.


Why is Torri Higginson really leaving?
What is/are the real reason(s) Torri is leaving?
Did Torri at anypoint mention unhappiness or hinted she wanted to leave?
Was Torri forced off the show?
Was Amanda Tapping's contract signed before or after Torri's announcement for leaving?
What is Torri's episode contract for Season 4?
How will Torri's name appear in the credits, during the theme or show intro?


When posting/replying, please provide source links to the interview and/or the person's name & job description/title from your source.

Please no character, personal, or actor/ess bashing.

"The Truth Is Out There"

So, let's get to it...

Good questions
*Why is she leaving? TPTB have stated that changes had to be made and in their minds Torri was one of those things.
*What is the real reason? Beides the fact that TPTB wanted changes Torri herself was unhappy with the writting.
*Was she unhappy? Yes as stated above she was not content with how they were writting her character.
*Was she forced out? I doubt it but no one knows.
*Was Amanda's contract signed before reducing Torri's?
Yes and no. The decison to get rid of her was during production of season 3 and Amanda had a two year contract. The decison to put Amanda on SGA was done after.
*What is Torris contract? As far as I know only 4 eps.
* How will she appear in credits? She won't exept for guest credits.

Mitchell82
May 19th, 2007, 06:08 PM
can jm be trusted? i personally wouldn't trust anything he says in that blog as truth. Sure some things are but i can't see as all being facts.

I belive he can. So far he as done nothing to make me not trust him.

parisindy
May 19th, 2007, 06:13 PM
So far he as done nothing to make me not trust him.

and thats totally fine that you think that, thank you for sharing your opinion as i have shared mine :)

Mitchell82
May 19th, 2007, 06:16 PM
and thats totally fine that you think that, thank you for sharing your opinion as i have shared mine :)

I know you're not a big fan of the new changes but even though we disagree I am glad that we can remain civil about it. I hope I'm right and season 4 will be as good as it sounds.

Killdeer
May 19th, 2007, 06:16 PM
Since I've been quoted (and BTW, it's "she", not "he" :D ), here's the revelant quote and citation.


"I was told right when we wrapped that there would be changes and that it was my choice if I want to come back and do some recurring [work] or walk away," states Higginson. "Weir is an interesting character and if she's up there working, that would be fun to do because it's a great bunch of people in Vancouver. I'd love to go back and revisit so we'll see what happens and go from there."

That's word for word from Issue #16 (May/June 2007) of Stargate Magazine, from the article titled "Weir & Now", page 43, last paragraph. Emphasis mine.

My interpretation:

TH was given two choices:
A) Go to recurring
B) Leave completely.

The option of staying as a regular was never on the table. I think they wrote First Strike in such a way as to accommodate whatever choice she made. But I don't get the feeling from this quote that Torri wanted this. *shrugs* Probably the reason it took so long for JoeM to tell us how many episodes she was in was because they were still negotiating whether she would even return or not.

Honestly, I think they were getting rid of Weir no matter what. I'm not happy about that, and I'm not happy that Carter was selected to replace her, but I think TH being gone was a done deal, no matter what AT decided to do.

Now as for the reasons TPTB made that particular call: I doubt anyone knows but those involved.

Mitchell82
May 19th, 2007, 06:18 PM
Since I've been quoted (and BTW, it's "she", not "he" :D ), here's the revelant quote and citation.



That's word for word from Issue #16 (May/June 2007) of Stargate Magazine, from the article titled "Weir & Now", page 43, last paragraph. Emphasis mine.

Now as for the reasons TPTB made that particular call: I doubt anyone knows but those involved.

And I doubt we wiwll ever know wwhat happend b/c it's confidential and they can't talk about it. I don't think they even are allowed to talk about what happend with MS all those years ago.

vaberella
May 19th, 2007, 06:19 PM
I think what else should be taken into consideration is that plans change. What people seem to think is that when something is said...hmmm, 5 months ago will be in effect within the next 5 months. Things change, plans change, stories change, ideas change. These also need to be considered. One thing can be said by one person---and this could have been fact at the time, but within a period of minutes if not ours, that turns into misinformation because something has occurred to change the direction that was initially going to be taken.

What is then at fault is that people are speaking too soon, that doesn't mean the person is out right lieing. It's much like the post above by JM. He makes two points that reflect this. He couldn't confirm the 4 eps although it was rumored to be the case, but TH was contracted for 3 eps. What if TH couldn't do the fourth ep...then it would be down to three. Now the contract has changed. This is the same thing with PM. There was talk in a meeting of having PM for three episodes rather than just two...of course no confirmation, but there was talk. Now a poster on another thread has said that JM has said that the third ep fell through. Things change and nothing is set in stone until the eps or the season is in play.

Pretty much everything needs to be taken with a grain of salt, but again as I've said JM has been straight forward on some of his answers. Especially in regards to some of the questions brought forth from the thread starter. Other questions haven't been answered by JM or Torri or whoever else, so there's no real basis to know. And in regards to Torri's response, because we don't have TPTB's full side, then we have a biased view. In some instances as Ali has said it, isn't his place to answer some of the specific questions detailing any of his casts contracts. Not to metnion, what if we did know what was gonig on in the meetings. We really can't change the decisions too much of TPTB and I'm speaking of those that JM himself answers too. We have no clue the pressure or not their forced into.




ps. you need to shake this 'us vs them' mentality you've got going on. As far as I can see the only people perpetuating it are... yourselves.
Untrue. :)

Yeah think? Not to get too personal, but the amount of reds I get for stating my opinion when my initial "on topic" post was questioned and I answered...says otherwise. Oh, and let me not forget to mention the idiot who thought it was cute to say to me "why don't you just shut up? you're just trying to get torri fired"!! <---see the accusation (rephrased to be accurate). There is an "us vs. them" mentality that I feel pushed on me, when I posted nothing on the actor. I should list all the reds with the nasty little comments to prove the point. But I'll refrain. :(


Since I've been quoted (and BTW, it's "she", not "he" :D ), here's the revelant quote and citation.



That's word for word from Issue #16 (May/June 2007) of Stargate Magazine, from the article titled "Weir & Now", page 43, last paragraph. Emphasis mine.

My interpretation:

TH was given two choices:
A) Go to recurring
B) Leave completely.

The option of staying as a regular was never on the table. I think they wrote First Strike in such a way as to accommodate whatever choice she made. But I don't get the feeling from this quote that Torri wanted this. *shrugs* Probably the reason it took so long for JoeM to tell us how many episodes she was in was because they were still negotiating, and I think he's said as much.

Honestly, I think they were getting rid of Weir no matter what. I'm not happy about that, and I'm not happy that Carter was selected to replace her, but I think Weir being gone was a done deal, no matter what AT decided to do.

Now as for the reasons TPTB made that particular call: I doubt anyone knows but those involved.

Figured that was going to be the case, that you're not a he and a she. Oy. I was supposed to put the "s/he" sign, but I forgot.

Yeah, I wasn't wanting to quote you but your post really, since it was relevant to the thread questions.

nowvoyager908
May 19th, 2007, 06:22 PM
Nup, but then again the 'pro fans' aren't coming up with massive conspiracy theories on why something is happening. And what's so personal about it? That I'm not convinced at all by a clearly biased fan's views of what's really going on? It's exactly the same thing that happened in the anti-season 10 thread, which I have exactly the same opinion about.

ps. you need to shake this 'us vs them' mentality you've got going on. As far as I can see the only people perpetuating it are... yourselves.


That's because the pro fans (who are clearly biased in their own way) don't care why the changes are happening . . . they either approve of them or they'll watch anything Stargate so the whys and hows, or the behind the scenes politics, don't really matter.

But for some of us, when we see a good actress like TH being tossed aside and then voila, like magic, AT becomes available to fill the spot, its bound to fire the imagination. And the more TPTB and pro-fans alike protest and say its all a coicidence, the more it strikes some of as as being just a little too convenient.

All I know is, that as a viewer formerly known as casual, I wandered on to this website a few months ago innocently trying to find out when the second half of season three was going to air. Instead I got hit full force by the news that two of my favorite characters were being axed. It changed my view of SGA and the show runners on the spot. Maybe I would feel differently if I knew that either TH or PM had chosen to leave voluntarily . . .it's certainly not without precedent. Rob Lowe voluntarily left the West Wing and I watched 'til the end. But the various reports have more than hinted that neither actor had a choice. Sorry, but that just sucks . . . big ones.

Mitchell82
May 19th, 2007, 06:25 PM
That's because the pro fans (who are clearly biased in their own way) don't care why the changes are happening . . . they either approve of them or they'll watch anything Stargate so the whys and hows, or the behind the scenes politics, don't really matter.

But for some of us, when we see a good actress like TH being tossed aside and then voila, like magic, AT becomes available to fill the spot, its bound to fire the imagination. And the more TPTB and pro-fans alike protest and say its all a coicidence, the more it strikes some of as as being just a little too convenient.

All I know is, that as a viewer formerly known as casual, I wandered on to this website a few months ago innocently trying to find out when the second half of season three was going to air. Instead I got hit full force by the news that two of my favorite characters were being axed. It changed my view of SGA and the show runners on the spot. Maybe I would feel differently if I knew that either TH or PM had chosen to leave voluntarily . . .it's certainly not without precedent. Rob Lowe voluntarily left the West Wing and I watched 'til the end. But the various reports have more than hinted that neither actor had a choice. Sorry, but that just sucks . . . big ones.

Well as a pro fan I might be biased to AT but that doesnt mean I'm not aliitle leary of the changes. I hat that PM was forced out but as far as I know Torri wasnt happy so it's possible it was mutual on that front. I know how you feel but I just happen to believe it will turn out well.

Agent_Dark
May 19th, 2007, 06:31 PM
That's because the pro fans (who are clearly biased in their own way) don't care why the changes are happening . . . they either approve of them or they'll watch anything Stargate so the whys and hows, or the behind the scenes politics, don't really matter.
So you feel threatened by them because they like the show? You can't "let them win" because if they "win" that means they've liked the show, in contrast to your own not liking the show?

Come on....

Pegasus_SGA
May 19th, 2007, 06:31 PM
That's because the pro fans (who are clearly biased in their own way) don't care why the changes are happening . . . they either approve of them or they'll watch anything Stargate so the whys and hows, or the behind the scenes politics, don't really matter.

But for some of us, when we see a good actress like TH being tossed aside and then voila, like magic, AT becomes available to fill the spot, its bound to fire the imagination. And the more TPTB and pro-fans alike protest and say its all a coicidence, the more it strikes some of as as being just a little too convenient.

All I know is, that as a viewer formerly known as casual, I wandered on to this website a few months ago innocently trying to find out when the second half of season three was going to air. Instead I got hit full force by the news that two of my favorite characters were being axed. It changed my view of SGA and the show runners on the spot. Maybe I would feel differently if I knew that either TH or PM had chosen to leave voluntarily . . .it's certainly not without precedent. Rob Lowe voluntarily left the West Wing and I watched 'til the end. But the various reports have more than hinted that neither actor had a choice. Sorry, but that just sucks . . . big ones.

Okay, hang on a second, before this starts getting to a US v them mentality. Because a person is pro season 4 doesn't necessarily mean that they don't have concerns over Torri leaving. It may mean that they have decided that there is nothing they can do about it, and are just going with the flow. Please don't speak for all pro S4 fans or all anti S4 fans...and you know what I really am starting to dislike this for and againts crap! Sorry to be blunt, but why can't a person be a supporter of Torri and Sam, have reservations but is neither for or against?

So getting off topic here. Thanks Kildeer for posting that snippet it's much appreciated as i've not seen it before. I like Torri, and am sad to see her go, changes were made to the character, and from the article Kildeer posted she had a choice. It may not have been the choice anyone wanted, but that was apparently the choices laid out. Doesn't the fact that she decided to stay in SGA say something? If she was that 'pissed off' would you want to stay? I wouldn't want to stay in a place where I wasn't welcome, but the fact is (from that article) that Torri chose to stay, and the only people that are having a problem with it are the fans. Which I completely understand btw, but you have a choice accept it or move on, and accept the fact that we will NEVER know the whole story behind the decisions made.

*gets off her soapbox*

parisindy
May 19th, 2007, 06:35 PM
gahhhh! i hate when i run out of green

Just a little aside ... i don't like to red anyone to me its just unnecessary and hurtful

I have only ever redded two people ever and it was because they redded me first.
(I shouldn’t have done it back in retaliation but I was angry, it was petty of me)

And one person I later talked it out and both apologized and I plan on greening that person in the future.

I would rather someone talk to me or pm me if they want, there are just way way to many assumptions being made.

We should be able to be civil but because the subject is near and dear to all of us its not always possible. Redding someone just seems redundant imho? What does it prove? What does it accomplish but more hurt feelings and resentment

Killdeer
May 19th, 2007, 06:41 PM
Yeah, I wasn't wanting to quote you but your post really, since it was relevant to the thread questions.

I'm not upset about it! :D It's not a problem.

ToasterOnFire
May 19th, 2007, 06:46 PM
Care to give examples of why then?
The "us vs. them" mentality is not limited to one group of fans. I've seen pro fans making sweeping generalizations about anti fans, I've seen anti fans making sweeping generalizations about pro fans. I've seen pro and anti fans claim the "true fan" status, thus trivializing the other side. I've seen digs against "the other side" given in both pro and anti threads. I've seen pro fans upset that certain anti fans give out red for praising TPTB/s4 and I've seen anti fans upset that certain pro fans just want them to shut up and go away. And then the actions of these few are extrapolated out and applied unfairly to the whole group (XXX, who is a YYY fan, made a really nasty comment. Therefore, all YYY fans are nasty people. And then a YYY fan reads this opinion, even though they never said anything nasty, and they feel unfairly labeled and lash out in return. Lather, rinse, repeat.)

Quite frankly, I'm getting tired of it all. The fandom around here is really going to pot and I'd love to figure out how all of these different factions can come together or at least stop being so nasty to each other. Otherwise it's going to be a long, LONG wait until s4. :(

parisindy
May 19th, 2007, 06:50 PM
Quite frankly, I'm getting tired of it all. The fandom around here is really going to pot and I'd love to figure out how all of these different factions can come together or at least stop being so nasty to each other.

agreed, i would support that cause

Pegasus_SGA
May 19th, 2007, 06:51 PM
agreed

Ditto! Maybe we (royal we) :P need more therapy sessions on the Fandom wars thread :lol:

Killdeer
May 19th, 2007, 06:52 PM
The "us vs. them" mentality is not limited to one group of fans. I've seen pro fans making sweeping generalizations about anti fans, I've seen anti fans making sweeping generalizations about pro fans. I've seen pro and anti fans claim the "true fan" status, thus trivializing the other side. I've seen digs against "the other side" given in both pro and anti threads. I've seen pro fans upset that certain anti fans give out red for praising TPTB/s4 and I've seen anti fans upset that certain pro fans just want them to shut up and go away. And then the actions of these few are extrapolated out and applied unfairly to the whole group (XXX, who is a YYY fan, made a really nasty comment. Therefore, all YYY fans are nasty people. And then a YYY fan reads this opinion, even though they never said anything nasty, and they feel unfairly labeled and lash out in return. Lather, rinse, repeat.)

Quite frankly, I'm getting tired of it all. The fandom around here is really going to pot and I'd love to figure out how all of these different factions can come together or at least stop being so nasty to each other. Otherwise it's going to be a long, LONG wait until s4. :(

Oh WORD WORD WORD WORD WORD! I agree with every single word here. I'd green you but can't right now! :D

Pegasus_SGA
May 19th, 2007, 06:52 PM
Oh WORD WORD WORD WORD WORD! I agree with every single word here. I'd green you but can't right now! :D

Done it for you :D

nowvoyager908
May 19th, 2007, 06:54 PM
So you feel threatened by them because they like the show? You can't "let them win" because if they "win" that means they've liked the show, in contrast to your own not liking the show?

Come on....


What? I'm sorry, but I can't even respond to this because I have no idea what you're talking about. Threatened? Let them win? Win what? I didn't realize this was a contest of some kind. I thought this was thread about why TH is really leaving. I didn't realize there would be prizes for the right answer. GMAB.

Mitchell82
May 19th, 2007, 06:54 PM
Quite frankly, I'm getting tired of it all. The fandom around here is really going to pot and I'd love to figure out how all of these different factions can come together or at least stop being so nasty to each other. Otherwise it's going to be a long, LONG wait until s4. :(

Agreed. We need to all take a chill pill and discuss rationally. Just because some fans disagree with others doesnt mean we can't be civil does it?

Killdeer
May 19th, 2007, 06:54 PM
Done it for you :D

Thanks! ;)

Agent_Dark
May 19th, 2007, 06:55 PM
What? I'm sorry, but I can't even respond to this because I have no idea what you're talking about. Threatened? Let them win? Win what? I didn't realize this was a contest of some kind. I thought this was thread about why TH is really leaving. I didn't realize there would be prizes for the right answer. GMAB.

I can link you the posts in the threads if you want?

vaberella
May 19th, 2007, 06:57 PM
gahhhh! i hate when i run out of green

Just a little aside ... i don't like to red anyone to me its just unnecessary and hurtful

I have only ever redded two people ever and it was because they redded me first.
(I shouldn’t have done it back in retaliation but I was angry, it was petty of me)

And one person I later talked it out and both apologized and I plan on greening that person in the future.

I would rather someone talk to me or pm me if they want, there are just way way to many assumptions being made.

We should be able to be civil but because the subject is near and dear to all of us its not always possible. Redding someone just seems redundant imho? What does it prove? What does it accomplish but more hurt feelings and resentment

The red is one thing. The red means nothing to me. I don't really care how many reds, it's the comments accompanying the reds that I don't like. So then if something happens to an actor, because I have problems with the way it's written and I state my reasons...I then there fore want to get the actress/actor fired. Is that even sane for someone to say that? Or telling someone to "shut the hell up" like they have the right. It's those little digs and comments that unnerve me. And I have gotten it from one side, and one side alone.

Then when I see people saying this or that in defense of these people, I'm like you need to ask the other side.

No one knows the full reason as to who and what caused TH to be reduced. Some people may have problems with Weir, such as myself, in paticular the way she's written. But that didn't mean I wanted the character off the show.

My complaints were always wanting them to improve her and make her grow as the show has grown. But that was never the case. What further unnerves me is the fact apparently everything I said is nothing that TH, herself hasn't complained about if you read the article comments posted by Killdeer. And then these same people who red me, say she was right; but I'm the devil incarnate and need to "shut the hell up".

In any event, until an announcement we won't be clear, and there are a multitude of factors in which TH might have left. We know of her dissatisfaction.

Killdeer
May 19th, 2007, 06:59 PM
I can link you the posts in the threads if you want?

If you're referring to what I think you're referring to, those were comments made by ONE person in the anti-Season 4 thread, and that person is not here, so I don't think it's fair to drag them into this, or to apply one person's comments to everyone who posts in that thread, or to even pull the comments out of context. Who knows what they meant at that particular point in time or what they were responding to?

parisindy
May 19th, 2007, 07:00 PM
Agreed. We need to all take a chill pill and discuss rationally. Just because some fans disagree with others doesnt mean we can't be civil does it?

the problem is i have temper that i have yet learned to curve lol. Often its not the opinion of another person that gets me going but the way they state it and their agressiviness with it.

we need to give peace a chance :lol:

PG15
May 19th, 2007, 07:02 PM
What we need is to shut this board down for a few days and let everyone cool off.

parisindy
May 19th, 2007, 07:03 PM
The red is one thing. The red means nothing to me. I don't really care how many reds, it's the comments accompanying the reds that I don't like. So then if something happens to an actor, because I have problems with the way it's written and I state my reasons...I then there fore want to get the actress/actor fired. Is that even sane for someone to say that? Or telling someone to "shut the hell up" like they have the right. It's those little digs and comments that unnerve me. And I have gotten it from one side, and one side alone.



thats because there is no reason for 'your own' side to red you, why would you get redded from someone that agrees with you?
i can say the exact same thing only on the flip side

Agent_Dark
May 19th, 2007, 07:04 PM
If you're referring to what I think you're referring to, those were comments made by ONE person in the anti-Season 4 thread, and that person is not here, so I don't think it's fair to drag them into this, or to apply one person's comments to everyone who posts in that thread.

Well, aside from the posts agreeing with that person and the discussion that followed it, sure one person (the person is here too btw).

nowvoyager908
May 19th, 2007, 07:05 PM
Okay, hang on a second, before this starts getting to a US v them mentality. Because a person is pro season 4 doesn't necessarily mean that they don't have concerns over Torri leaving. It may mean that they have decided that there is nothing they can do about it, and are just going with the flow. Please don't speak for all pro S4 fans or all anti S4 fans...and you know what I really am starting to dislike this for and againts crap! Sorry to be blunt, but why can't a person be a supporter of Torri and Sam, have reservations but is neither for or against?*gets off her soapbox*

Bolding is mine. Because unfortunately this has been turned into a stupid war and its hard to stay neutral. I never claim to speak for all fans and I apologize if that's how it came across. I usually am very clear about speaking for no one but myself. Everybody is quite capable of speaking their own mind; we're not a hive mind. But I was responding to a poster who used the "pro fan" designation and I fell into the trap of responding in kind. I guess there's a reason why I rarely venture beyond certain threads . . . just takes all the fun out of posting. :(

parisindy
May 19th, 2007, 07:09 PM
Bolding is mine. Because unfortunately this has been turned into a stupid war and its hard to stay neutral. I never claim to speak for all fans and I apologize if that's how it came across. I usually am very clear about speaking for no one but myself. Everybody is quite capable of speaking their own mind; we're not a hive mind. But I was responding to a poster who used the "pro fan" designation and I fell into the trap of responding in kind. I guess there's a reason why I rarely venture beyond certain threads . . . just takes all the fun out of posting. :(

(((((((((((((((((((((HUGS))))))))))))))))))))))))))

Mitchell82
May 19th, 2007, 07:11 PM
What we need is to shut this board down for a few days and let everyone cool off.

Seconded.

Pegasus_SGA
May 19th, 2007, 07:11 PM
thats because there is no reason for 'your own' side to red you, why would you get redded from someone that agrees with you?
i can say the exact same thing only on the flip side

But that's just it hon, we talk about 'sides', and that's where the divition comes in. We're all on the SAME side (hopefully) :lol: in that we want SGA to stand on it's own two feet and continue on until i'm hoping S10 :D

Whether that will happen or not, I don't know. Will Torri's leaving impact on the viewing figures? Only time will tell, I like Torri, though I thought her character was underutilised, but the reasons for her leaving/reocurring may never be known and because we have all this time on our hands until S4 everyone...well sligh exaggeration, lol, some people are jittery and are causing trouble and pitching the whole for and against crap. It's happening on both sides, and both sides are sick of it, because of a handful of people stirring the pot.

I agree with PG15, shut GW down for a few days and let people cool off, :lol: but since that's never gonna happen....

*looks at the title of the thread*

Ooops. What was the question again? :P

the fifth man
May 19th, 2007, 07:14 PM
Looks like there needs to be lots of hugs around here.

Pegasus_SGA
May 19th, 2007, 07:14 PM
Bolding is mine. Because unfortunately this has been turned into a stupid war and its hard to stay neutral. I never claim to speak for all fans and I apologize if that's how it came across. I usually am very clear about speaking for no one but myself. Everybody is quite capable of speaking their own mind; we're not a hive mind. But I was responding to a poster who used the "pro fan" designation and I fell into the trap of responding in kind. I guess there's a reason why I rarely venture beyond certain threads . . . just takes all the fun out of posting. :(

((((((((((((((Hugs))))))))))))))

I think everyone's just hurt, upset and angry about the whole situation, and the wait for S4 is not helping things. I've said it before that it upsets me that people feel they can't step out of the safety of their own threads, and i'm sorry if I made you feel like that. It is an easy trap to fall into.

vaberella
May 19th, 2007, 07:18 PM
Agreed. We need to all take a chill pill and discuss rationally. Just because some fans disagree with others doesnt mean we can't be civil does it?

Depends on what you mean by civil. I think people need to grow up first. I have nothing against a little heated discussion.

This all started with the whole JM may not be telling the whole truth. I put down his information as the closest to viable account to the questions by the original creator of the thread.

If he was accepted as having some inside information we don't have, maybe this whole thing wouldn't have started. Since he does have info...and he has never outright lied. But it's become a mini argument between pro vs. anti...meh!

Until the pros can be ambivalent and say what they want without accompanying nastiness (I'm one of the few who hasn't seen nastiness posted to anti's in the same elk)...and the anti's can just realize some of us like Sam and that doesn't mean we hate Weir; or get over some of us not dissapointed about Weir...there will always be some bloody problem until S4---then people can just whinge and moan about the plot, characterization, and nitpick all the badly cut up scenes or uni malfunctions. Or in the case of techies debate how many drones it would take to take out one hive ship.:D


thats because there is no reason for 'your own' side to red you, why would you get redded from someone that agrees with you?
i can say the exact same thing only on the flip side

Maybe I don't get your point. I don't care about a red, that's a color addition to my list of things displayed. I'm talking about the unneeded insults that needs to be cut out. I don't need to be insulted and I think those people have nerve.

the fifth man
May 19th, 2007, 07:20 PM
The "us vs. them" mentality is not limited to one group of fans. I've seen pro fans making sweeping generalizations about anti fans, I've seen anti fans making sweeping generalizations about pro fans. I've seen pro and anti fans claim the "true fan" status, thus trivializing the other side. I've seen digs against "the other side" given in both pro and anti threads. I've seen pro fans upset that certain anti fans give out red for praising TPTB/s4 and I've seen anti fans upset that certain pro fans just want them to shut up and go away. And then the actions of these few are extrapolated out and applied unfairly to the whole group (XXX, who is a YYY fan, made a really nasty comment. Therefore, all YYY fans are nasty people. And then a YYY fan reads this opinion, even though they never said anything nasty, and they feel unfairly labeled and lash out in return. Lather, rinse, repeat.)

Quite frankly, I'm getting tired of it all. The fandom around here is really going to pot and I'd love to figure out how all of these different factions can come together or at least stop being so nasty to each other. Otherwise it's going to be a long, LONG wait until s4. :(

Brilliant post. I agree with you entirely. Have some green.

parisindy
May 19th, 2007, 07:20 PM
Seconded.

i fail to see how that would help anything
the opinions and problems would still exsist when we return



But that's just it hon, we talk about 'sides', and that's where the divition comes in. We're all on the SAME side (hopefully) :lol: in that we want SGA to stand on it's own two feet and continue on until i'm hoping S10 :D

but there are sides there is no getting around it, it’s the animosity between the two that is the problem. Not everyone wants SGA to stand on its own two feet and many believe that we need SG1 and Sam. I can deal with others opinions but when i start getting treated badly for mine i get angry and yes i get petty and in turn treat others badly. Its a vicious circle, one that i am not proud of but i am also not sure can be fixed. Even though i would be willing to try there is always going to be some person thats going to act like a jerk and it will start up all over again.

nowvoyager908
May 19th, 2007, 07:21 PM
((((((((((((((Hugs))))))))))))))

I think everyone's just hurt, upset and angry about the whole situation, and the wait for S4 is not helping things. I've said it before that it upsets me that people feel they can't step out of the safety of their own threads, and i'm sorry if I made you feel like that. It is an easy trap to fall into.


Thanks, but I just hate adding fuel to the fire. We keep going round and round in endless circles with the pros and the antis and them against us. Its kind of like navigating a mine field. LOL.

parisindy
May 19th, 2007, 07:22 PM
((((((((((((((Hugs))))))))))))))

I think everyone's just hurt, upset and angry about the whole situation, and the wait for S4 is not helping things. I've said it before that it upsets me that people feel they can't step out of the safety of their own threads, and i'm sorry if I made you feel like that. It is an easy trap to fall into.

but i'm not waiting for season 4, i can not be party to the changes
love that you are willing to try and make peace babes thats a very cool thing

((hugs))

vaberella
May 19th, 2007, 07:23 PM
Looks like there needs to be lots of hugs around here.

If people start singing kumbaya...I'll have to red you and then leave! :D

parisindy
May 19th, 2007, 07:25 PM
Maybe I don't get your point. I don't care about a red, that's a color addition to my list of things displayed. I'm talking about the unneeded insults that needs to be cut out. I don't need to be insulted and I think those people have nerve.

i guess my point is that this is not just happening to one side


If people start singing kumbaya...I'll have to red you and then leave! :D


*SNORK!*

ohhh that deserves green :lol:

Pegasus_SGA
May 19th, 2007, 07:29 PM
i fail to see how that would help anything
the opinions and problems would still exsist when we return

but there are sides there is no getting around it, it’s the animosity between the two that is the problem. Not everyone wants SGA to stand on its own two feet and many believe that we need SG1 and Sam. I can deal with others opinions but when i start getting treated badly for mine i get angry and yes i get petty and in turn treat others badly. Its a vicious circle, one that i am not proud of but i am also not sure can be fixed. Even though i would be willing to try there is always going to be some person thats going to act like a jerk and it will start up all over again.

But that's what i'm saying, there shouldn't be sides. people should be able to have a difference of opinion without it becoming 'sides'. People don't want SGA to stand on it's own two feet? :(

I think it can be fixed, but maybe we just need to think about things before we post. And for those that are deliberately stirring the pot... ignore them. Or call them on it.

Anyway i'll shut up now, because i'm way off topic :lol:


Thanks, but I just hate adding fuel to the fire. We keep going round and round in endless circles with the pros and the antis and them against us. Its kind of like navigating a mine field. LOL.

:lol: only a mindfield would probably be better to navigte around, at least you'd have a good idea that all of them are likely to blow up in your face so you'd take precautions. Here, you never know, lol.

*gets out her protective suit* :D

parisindy
May 19th, 2007, 07:32 PM
Anyway i'll shut up now, because i'm way off topic :lol:

off topic but at least a healthy conversation, something thats been sorely missing around here as of late

PG15
May 19th, 2007, 07:40 PM
i fail to see how that would help anything
the opinions and problems would still exsist when we return

True, but I find that, when I start posting opinion pieces or really participate in a debate, I tend to get into a "zone" where I'm just more combative overall. Hurt feelings only beget hurtful responses. By stopping this vicious cycle for a while, we might be able to lessen the more rude remarks.

That, and we get to take a break from our Stargate opinions for a few days. :D

Killdeer
May 19th, 2007, 07:42 PM
True, but I find that, when I start posting opinion pieces or really participate in a debate, I tend to get into a "zone" where I'm just more combative overall. Hurt feelings only beget hurtful responses. By stopping this vicious cycle for a while, we might be able to lessen the more rude remarks.

That, and we get to take a break from our Stargate opinions for a few days. :D

Maybe.....if it was just the Season 4 forum - that seems to be the hotspot right now. No need to punish everyone else....:D

parisindy
May 19th, 2007, 07:43 PM
True, but I find that, when I start posting opinion pieces or really participate in a debate, I tend to get into a "zone" where I'm just more combative overall. Hurt feelings only beget hurtful responses. By stopping this vicious cycle for a while, we might be able to lessen the more rude remarks.

That, and we get to take a break from our Stargate opinions for a few days. :D

i agree but i think we need a more permanent fix that would only fix things temporarily

PG15
May 19th, 2007, 07:51 PM
Believe me, I've had my share of fandoms (Star Trek and Stargate), there aren't any permanent solutions save banning everyone "on one side".

And that just raises a whole bunch of other problems. We'll all just have to deal with it.

ToasterOnFire
May 19th, 2007, 08:03 PM
I'm very happy to hear that fans of all sorts would like a healthier, more productive, and more tolerant atmosphere here at GW. :)

We have indeed gone massively off topic on this thread (apologies to the OP :o) but I would like this conversation to continue. Would anyone be willing to start an open, honest thread about this for all fans? Alas, my thesis is demanding my time RIGHT NOW. :mckay: I'd love to have a place where people can post their feelings and reach reconciliations and solutions - no finger-pointing, no adding to the negativity, no generalizing or grouping fans.

Killdeer
May 19th, 2007, 08:08 PM
I'm very happy to hear that fans of all sorts would like a healthier, more productive, and more tolerant atmosphere here at GW. :)

We have indeed gone massively off topic on this thread (apologies to the OP :o) but I would like this conversation to continue. Would anyone be willing to start an open, honest thread about this for all fans? Alas, my thesis is demanding my time RIGHT NOW. :mckay: I'd love to have a place where people can post their feelings and reach reconciliations and solutions - no finger-pointing, no adding to the negativity, no generalizing or grouping fans.

I think there is one, if people want to use it. It appears the last topic of conversation was ship wars, but the title would apply here too. What do you think?

Fandom Wars: A misunderstanding or an inevitabilty? (http://forum.gateworld.net/showthread.php?t=43729&page=5&highlight=Fandom+Wars)

parisindy
May 19th, 2007, 08:10 PM
I think there is one, if people want to use it. It appears the last topic of conversation was ship wars, but the title would apply here too. What do you think?

Fandom Wars: A misunderstanding or an inevitabilty? (http://forum.gateworld.net/showthread.php?t=43729&page=5&highlight=Fandom+Wars)

i'll post a link from there to here so people can reference it
thanks for digging the link up again

((hugs)) to all

the fifth man
May 19th, 2007, 08:16 PM
I'm very happy to hear that fans of all sorts would like a healthier, more productive, and more tolerant atmosphere here at GW. :)


I feel the same way. It's nice to know so many would like things to change for the better around here. If even in a small way. It will be an ongoing process though. Things definitely won't change over night.

Mitchell82
May 19th, 2007, 08:28 PM
Depends on what you mean by civil. I think people need to grow up first. I have nothing against a little heated discussion.

This all started with the whole JM may not be telling the whole truth. I put down his information as the closest to viable account to the questions by the original creator of the thread.

If he was accepted as having some inside information we don't have, maybe this whole thing wouldn't have started. Since he does have info...and he has never outright lied. But it's become a mini argument between pro vs. anti...meh!

Until the pros can be ambivalent and say what they want without accompanying nastiness (I'm one of the few who hasn't seen nastiness posted to anti's in the same elk)...and the anti's can just realize some of us like Sam and that doesn't mean we hate Weir; or get over some of us not dissapointed about Weir...there will always be some bloody problem until S4---then people can just whinge and moan about the plot, characterization, and nitpick all the badly cut up scenes or uni malfunctions. Or in the case of techies debate how many drones it would take to take out one hive ship.:D



Maybe I don't get your point. I don't care about a red, that's a color addition to my list of things displayed. I'm talking about the unneeded insults that needs to be cut out. I don't need to be insulted and I think those people have nerve.

Very good point. But at least you and I are pros that have not been nasty, or at least done our best not to be.

Mitchell82
May 19th, 2007, 08:30 PM
I'm very happy to hear that fans of all sorts would like a healthier, more productive, and more tolerant atmosphere here at GW. :)

We have indeed gone massively off topic on this thread (apologies to the OP :o) but I would like this conversation to continue. Would anyone be willing to start an open, honest thread about this for all fans? Alas, my thesis is demanding my time RIGHT NOW. :mckay: I'd love to have a place where people can post their feelings and reach reconciliations and solutions - no finger-pointing, no adding to the negativity, no generalizing or grouping fans.

Agreed. I treally makes this enviornment a nasty one when we can't have a healthy discussion no matter if we are pro, anti or neutral.

Irish Eyes
May 19th, 2007, 08:52 PM
The "us vs. them" mentality is not limited to one group of fans. I've seen pro fans making sweeping generalizations about anti fans, I've seen anti fans making sweeping generalizations about pro fans. I've seen pro and anti fans claim the "true fan" status, thus trivializing the other side. I've seen digs against "the other side" given in both pro and anti threads. I've seen pro fans upset that certain anti fans give out red for praising TPTB/s4 and I've seen anti fans upset that certain pro fans just want them to shut up and go away. And then the actions of these few are extrapolated out and applied unfairly to the whole group (XXX, who is a YYY fan, made a really nasty comment. Therefore, all YYY fans are nasty people. And then a YYY fan reads this opinion, even though they never said anything nasty, and they feel unfairly labeled and lash out in return. Lather, rinse, repeat.)

Quite frankly, I'm getting tired of it all. The fandom around here is really going to pot and I'd love to figure out how all of these different factions can come together or at least stop being so nasty to each other. Otherwise it's going to be a long, LONG wait until s4. :(

Mental green for you!!:D

I hate to say it, but I don't feel comfortable posting in a lot of threads right now, even the one I used to consider my "home" thread. Oh well.

Keeping OT, I personally think the only people who know why Torri is going to recurring are TPTB and possibly Torri. And they're not talking, presumably due to confidentiality clauses or something similar.

So all we can do is speculate until they tell us something official (which could be never).

Killdeer
May 19th, 2007, 09:01 PM
I'm very happy to hear that fans of all sorts would like a healthier, more productive, and more tolerant atmosphere here at GW. :)

We have indeed gone massively off topic on this thread (apologies to the OP :o) but I would like this conversation to continue. Would anyone be willing to start an open, honest thread about this for all fans? Alas, my thesis is demanding my time RIGHT NOW. :mckay: I'd love to have a place where people can post their feelings and reach reconciliations and solutions - no finger-pointing, no adding to the negativity, no generalizing or grouping fans.

I think there is one, if people want to use it. It appears the last topic of conversation was ship wars, but the title would apply here too. What do you think?

Fandom Wars: A misunderstanding or an inevitabilty? (http://forum.gateworld.net/showthread.php?t=43729&page=5&highlight=Fandom+Wars)

Are people happy with using the above thread to continue the discussion, or do you want to open a new thread? I was only presenting this as one option, not as the ONLY option.

But I agree that it would be good if the discussion could continue, on the above thread, or another one. :)

PG15
May 19th, 2007, 09:11 PM
I'd like a new one, to be honest (not to lessen your effort in finding that thread though :)). That one is already 5 pages long, doesn't exist in this forum and thus aren't dedicated to our issues specifically, and there is a lot of shipping going on in there that, as far as I see, isn't really a large part of our discussions.

Killdeer
May 19th, 2007, 09:16 PM
I'd like a new one, to be honest (not to lessen your effort in finding that thread though :)). That one is already 5 pages long, doesn't exist in this forum and thus aren't dedicated to our issues specifically, and there is a lot of shipping going on in there that, as far as I see, isn't really a large part of our discussions.

Then, please, feel free.... :D Or PM me with suggestions on the guidelines and title and I can do it. I just don't want to jump out there and start a new thread assuming I'm speaking for everyone.

PG15
May 19th, 2007, 09:24 PM
Oh, you don't want me to start a thread for that. I am anything BUT mediating. ;)

If anything, I should be barred from that thread at all costs. :p

There are a few posters who I think can do it justice. You're one of them. As for the title...hmm...how about "Stop the Madness!!"

---

See, that's why I can't do it.

Killdeer
May 19th, 2007, 09:36 PM
Oh, you don't want me to start a thread for that. I am anything BUT mediating. ;)

If anything, I should be barred from that thread at all costs. :p

There are a few posters who I think can do it justice. You're one of them. As for the title...hmm...how about "Stop the Madness!!"

---

See, that's why I can't do it.

:LOL: Drat. Alright. Ummm. Give me a few minutes to think about this and I'll get something up. People, feel free to PM with thoughts.

parisindy
May 19th, 2007, 09:52 PM
Oh, you don't want me to start a thread for that. I am anything BUT mediating. ;)

If anything, I should be barred from that thread at all costs. :p

There are a few posters who I think can do it justice. You're one of them. As for the title...hmm...how about "Stop the Madness!!"

---

See, that's why I can't do it.

I disagree i think you should totally be apart of that thread

PG15
May 19th, 2007, 09:52 PM
Oh believe me, I don't think I'll be able to keep away from it. :D

Pegasus_SGA
May 19th, 2007, 09:53 PM
I'd like a new one, to be honest (not to lessen your effort in finding that thread though :)). That one is already 5 pages long, doesn't exist in this forum and thus aren't dedicated to our issues specifically, and there is a lot of shipping going on in there that, as far as I see, isn't really a large part of our discussions.

The fandom wars thread wasn't started for a discussion about shippers, it was set up for all parts of the fandom, characters, seasons, divitions within SG1 and SGA to discuss the problems with fandom wars in general and why they happen and hopefuly tips to stop them happening. But i'll leave it up to you if you want to start another thread, don't want to look like i'm pimping my own thread, :lol:

parisindy
May 19th, 2007, 09:57 PM
hehe maybe when people piss me, off and oh i am sure they will, i'll just post a link to the peace thread :lol:

which ever way we choose to go

Killdeer
May 19th, 2007, 10:21 PM
As requested -

The Conference Room - A Thread for Season 4 peace talks (http://forum.gateworld.net/showthread.php?t=44086)

PG15
May 19th, 2007, 10:41 PM
The fandom wars thread wasn't started for a discussion about shippers, it was set up for all parts of the fandom, characters, seasons, divitions within SG1 and SGA to discuss the problems with fandom wars in general and why they happen and hopefuly tips to stop them happening. But i'll leave it up to you if you want to start another thread, don't want to look like i'm pimping my own thread, :lol:

Right you are! I was looking at the first post of the fifth page of that thread (which was filled with 'shipper abbreviations ;)) and mistaked it for the first post.

Pegasus_SGA
May 19th, 2007, 10:45 PM
Right you are! I was looking at the first post of the fifth page of that thread (which was filled with 'shipper abbreviations ;)) and mistaked it for the first post.

I think GW needs lots of 'Peace be in the Pegasus Galaxy threads' to balance all the other threads out. :lol:

Killdeer
May 19th, 2007, 10:48 PM
I think GW needs lots of 'Peace be in the Pegasus Galaxy threads' to balance all the other threads out. :lol:

LOL. I should have named it that! Thanks for being OK with it. I suppose I should have waited a little longer and gotten more feedback before posting. :o

*looks around* Wow, this thread has been oddly unmodded tonight. I think it's been productive, but we are so far away from topic it's not funny. :D

Pegasus_SGA
May 20th, 2007, 02:50 AM
LOL. I should have named it that! Thanks for being OK with it. I suppose I should have waited a little longer and gotten more feedback before posting. :o

*looks around* Wow, this thread has been oddly unmodded tonight. I think it's been productive, but we are so far away from topic it's not funny. :D

Akunamata *hugs*

:lol: I always wonder what the OP thinks when their poor thread loses their way to a point of no return. Oops. Sorry.

Alipeeps
May 20th, 2007, 02:50 AM
But for some of us, when we see a good actress like TH being tossed aside and then voila, like magic, AT becomes available to fill the spot, its bound to fire the imagination. And the more TPTB and pro-fans alike protest and say its all a coicidence, the more it strikes some of as as being just a little too convenient.

All I know is, that as a viewer formerly known as casual, I wandered on to this website a few months ago innocently trying to find out when the second half of season three was going to air. Instead I got hit full force by the news that two of my favorite characters were being axed. It changed my view of SGA and the show runners on the spot. Maybe I would feel differently if I knew that either TH or PM had chosen to leave voluntarily . . .it's certainly not without precedent. Rob Lowe voluntarily left the West Wing and I watched 'til the end. But the various reports have more than hinted that neither actor had a choice. Sorry, but that just sucks . . . big ones.

The thing is... that's TV. That's life in the entertainment business.. and Torri and Paul and everyone else know that. I'm not saying it's not a shame their roles were reduced or cut or that I'm not sorry to see them go... but to behave as though this happening is some dreadful insult to the actors and that TPTB should be ashamed of themselves etc etc... well, I understand people being fans of the actor concerned and feeling protective of them, but it does kinda come across as a little self-righteous (and I'm not meaning to have a go at anyone here, just giving my thoughts). Shows get cancelled all the time, roles get cut and amended all the time.. that's life as an actor. And being the wonderful, talented people they are, I'm sure Torri and Paul will go on to other incredible, enjoyable roles.


But that's just it hon, we talk about 'sides', and that's where the divition comes in. We're all on the SAME side (hopefully) :lol: in that we want SGA to stand on it's own two feet and continue on until i'm hoping S10 :D



But that's what i'm saying, there shouldn't be sides. people should be able to have a difference of opinion without it becoming 'sides'. People don't want SGA to stand on it's own two feet? :(


Sadly, no - not everyone wants SGA to stand on its own two feet/succeed. Not wanting to tar all people of one opinion with the same brush, but I have certainly seem a couple of individuals posting to say that they hope the show is cancelled. And how can that be anything but divisive? To effectively say that because you don't want to watch the show anymore, you hope no-one else gets to either.

I'm hoping comments like that are just made in the heat of the moment and that those one or two people don't genuinely want to see *all* the fans disappointed and all the actors/crew etc who make a living from SGA have to look for new work, just because they don't like the changes to the show.

nowvoyager908
May 20th, 2007, 09:16 AM
The thing is... that's TV. That's life in the entertainment business.. and Torri and Paul and everyone else know that. I'm not saying it's not a shame their roles were reduced or cut or that I'm not sorry to see them go... but to behave as though this happening is some dreadful insult to the actors and that TPTB should be ashamed of themselves etc etc... well, I understand people being fans of the actor concerned and feeling protective of them, but it does kinda come across as a little self-righteous (and I'm not meaning to have a go at anyone here, just giving my thoughts). Shows get cancelled all the time, roles get cut and amended all the time.. that's life as an actor. And being the wonderful, talented people they are, I'm sure Torri and Paul will go on to other incredible, enjoyable roles.


Well, obviously I can’t agree with the self-righteous part. LOL. I would feel protective of anyone in any situation who I felt had been treated badly by someone in a position of authority. It’s a knee-jerk reaction I’ve had dating way back to the teachers in grade school . . . but that’s a whole ‘nother issue probably requiring a couch and some ink blots.

As you say, this may be the way it is in the entertainment business, but IMHO that doesn’t make it right or palatable. And I give TH a lot of credit, because if I had been given the option to walk away on the spot or come back for a few episodes, I would have told TPTB where to shove their offer. But that’s just me. ;)
Guess she chose not to burn any bridges.

parisindy
May 20th, 2007, 09:35 AM
The thing is... that's TV. That's life in the entertainment business.. and Torri and Paul and everyone else know that. I'm not saying it's not a shame their roles were reduced or cut or that I'm not sorry to see them go... but to behave as though this happening is some dreadful insult to the actors and that TPTB should be ashamed of themselves etc etc... well, I understand people being fans of the actor concerned and feeling protective of them, but it does kinda come across as a little self-righteous (and I'm not meaning to have a go at anyone here, just giving my thoughts). Shows get cancelled all the time, roles get cut and amended all the time.. that's life as an actor. And being the wonderful, talented people they are, I'm sure Torri and Paul will go on to other incredible, enjoyable roles.

Sadly, no - not everyone wants SGA to stand on its own two feet/succeed. Not wanting to tar all people of one opinion with the same brush, but I have certainly seem a couple of individuals posting to say that they hope the show is cancelled. And how can that be anything but divisive? To effectively say that because you don't want to watch the show anymore, you hope no-one else gets to either.

I'm hoping comments like that are just made in the heat of the moment and that those one or two people don't genuinely want to see *all* the fans disappointed and all the actors/crew etc who make a living from SGA have to look for new work, just because they don't like the changes to the show.


first ali loves ya so ((hugs))

second i would like to see the show cancelled not to spite all the pro people, its just that i feel that the show has jumped the shark and that it has lost all its integrity. I hate to see something i loved turned into the cheesy low quality junk that is everywhere. I want something better for the fans and the show. Its like x-files (like someone said and thats a brilliant example) that show should have ended when it left Vancouver, as everything from there on it just didn't have the quality of previous seasons and it had lost its integrity.
And yes that only my opinion yadda yadda not all antis agree with me etc etc

how would you feel if it was Joe that got canned?

if they some how magically could turn things around... restore torri and pauls characters to what they were, and not have Sam, keller, or Ellis in any sort of main roles i would be watching and supporting, but i know that won't be happening


Well, obviously I can’t agree with the self-righteous part. LOL. I would feel protective of anyone in any situation who I felt had been treated badly by someone in a position of authority. It’s a knee-jerk reaction I’ve had dating way back to the teachers in grade school . . . but that’s a whole ‘nother issue probably requiring a couch and some ink blots.

As you say, this may be the way it is in the entertainment business, but IMHO that doesn’t make it right or palatable. And I give TH a lot of credit, because if I had been given the option to walk away on the spot or come back for a few episodes, I would have told TPTB where to shove their offer. But that’s just me. ;)
Guess she chose not to burn any bridges.

well said and maybe i should join you on the couch LOL

Pegasus_SGA
May 20th, 2007, 09:58 AM
first ali loves ya so ((hugs))

second i would like to see the show cancelled not to spite all the pro people, its just that i feel that the show has jumped the shark and that it has lost all its integrity. I hate to see something i loved turned into the cheesy low quality junk that is everywhere. I want something better for the fans and the show. Its like x-files (like someone said and thats a brilliant example) that show should have ended when it left Vancouver, as everything from there on it just didn't have the quality of previous seasons and it had lost its integrity.
And yes that only my opinion yadda yadda not all antis agree with me etc etc [/spoiler]

I'm very surprised to hear you say that hon. But now that you've said you want it to be cancelled, can I ask why? Maybe in the peace loving thread :lol: I'd be interested to know why you feel it's 'jumped the shark' ang how it's lost it's integrity. Happy to chat with you on any thread you feel comfortable on :D



how would you feel if it was Joe that got canned?

if they some how magically could turn things around... restore torri and pauls characters to what they were, and not have Sam, keller, or Ellis in any sort of main roles i would be watching and supporting, but i know that won't be happening

well said and maybe i should join you on the couch LOL

If Joe got canned then i'd be unhappy. I was unhappy when RDA left and that was of his own volition :lol: and although I didn't like the changes, I had a gripe aired my grievences and didn't post in any seasons after he left unless I had something positiveish to contribute. I was a regular poster for SG1, but that all stopped when I found I never had anything good to say anymore. And I hated feeling like that. But I still watched, not as regular as I did, but I think i've only once or twice posted in the threads that relate to seasons 8, 9 and 10 because I couldn't be constructive and rational because I missed Jack and the feel of the show. And while I felt I couldn't contriute effectively and be rational about things I didn't see the point of continually moaning after each and every ep or each new season.

if you're asking if i'd stop posting if Joe left, the honest answer I can give is I don't know. Although he's my favourite character, it didn't stop me from enjoying the eps centered around the other characters, I loved Sateda and TRW because for me it's not just about one person it's the team and the stories I love, and if that disappeared, then so would I. I'd find something else that I enjoyed... I'd certainly have more free time :lol:

Does that answer your question?

parisindy
May 20th, 2007, 10:05 AM
I'm very surprised to hear you say that hon. But now that you've said you want it to be cancelled, can I ask why? Maybe in the peace loving thread :lol: I'd be interested to know why you feel it's 'jumped the shark' ang how it's lost it's integrity. Happy to chat with you on any thread you feel comfortable on :D


the peace thread would be fine alought it might have to be a bit later on i got some work to do and this has been taking wayyy to much of time as of late :lol:



I loved Sateda and TRW because for me it's not just about one person it's the team and the stories I love, and if that disappeared, then so would I. I'd find something else that I enjoyed... I'd certainly have more free time :lol:

Does that answer your question?

for me either... gads i love sateda.. for me its all about the team and the team has been destroyed... its one of the many reasons its jumped the shark imho

but yeah a discussion for another time, after the dog is walked, the garden is and and lunch is made hehe

Skydiver
May 20th, 2007, 10:07 AM
soooooo why did torri really leave?

or has this thread run its course and needs to be closed :)

The simple fact of the matter is, we will never REALLY know why torri is leaving. The truth is between her, tptb adn the fly on the wall...and that fly ain't talking. :)

It's her business and out of respect to her, maybe this topic is one best not continued

Mitchell82
May 20th, 2007, 10:09 AM
soooooo why did torri really leave?

or has this thread run its course and needs to be closed :)

The simple fact of the matter is, we will never REALLY know why torri is leaving. The truth is between her, tptb adn the fly on the wall...and that fly ain't talking. :)

It's her business and out of respect to her, maybe this topic is one best not continued
Denise I agree. It is really none of our buisness as to why she left. Mabey it wowuld be best if you closed this.

Pegasus_SGA
May 20th, 2007, 10:20 AM
Denise I agree. It is really none of our buisness as to why she left. Mabey it wowuld be best if you closed this.

I agree it's none of our business and tbh it's not like we've kept on topic... sorry OP, sorry mods.:o

*runs out the thread*

parisindy
May 20th, 2007, 10:24 AM
agreed ..hugs to all ((hugs))

Celcool
May 20th, 2007, 10:38 AM
Did Torri at anypoint mention unhappiness or hinted she wanted to leave?
I don't think she ever did, quite the opposite. In regards to this, I'd like to post the following Torri quotes from her latest GW interview from August.


GW: <snip>How do you feel this year is shaping up as a whole?

TH: Actually, I've enjoyed this year more than the first two. I think for various reasons. It does take a while to really settle in to something, especially when your geographically away from your home. I think people are a little bit more nervous and not quite as comfortable because they don't have their natural support around them. And so for me Year Three has been just much more relaxed, and much more enjoyable as far as the relationships with the people that you work with. I think, too, the writers have done some interesting things this year as far as breaking those set boxes a little bit more. <snip> So I've been enjoying Year Three very much.



GW: Great. What has been the most joyous moment of this year thus far for you, and also for whatever reason, what has been the most horrible?

TH: Oh, dear. Well, the most joyous -- you know what -- really is coming to work. Getting to work with RDA again. I just get giddy around him. He is such a joy to work with, and he's such a flirt. He's just fun. He's really fun. So I feel very lucky. I've had two or three episodes with him this year. That always makes me happy, when I read a script and I go "Yippee!" And I get to be the one that deals with him, and I feel very lucky in that.

Sedgewick also gets to be in the show again this year. That always makes me very happy. And the other thing is I had a date! I get to kiss a boy! Hoohoo! I don't know if I can say that. Maybe I shouldn't say that! [Laughter] But that was fun.

http://www.gateworld.net/interviews/the_real_weir.shtml



Was Torri forced off the show?

She didn't go of her own will, it's obvious from the Stargate mag interview, she took the best option and that's the recurring with no promise of a better status, so yeah, I'd say she was forced off the show.


Hmmm...I don't know quite what to think about the insider info from Joe M. and other PTBs. Showrunners are representatives of the show and their job is to "sell" the show. That often means putting a positive spin on news, leaving out or trivializing negative news, or not giving the whole story. They're very similar to politicians or PR agents for companies. Sometimes it can be hard to sift out what's true, what's not, and what's deliberately vague or twisted around to serve their interests. In other words, I take almost everything TPTB say about controversial show decisions/changes with a grain of salt. Not dismissing it outright, but not taking everything they say as the full and complete truth either. ;)

Look at this recent event with BSG - Olmos and Sackhoff were both reported to have said that s4 was going to be the last at a recent event, and Eick (the producer) immediately released a "maybe it is, maybe it isn't, Olmos has said this sort of stuff before (even though he hasn't)" kind of statement. Eick thought it was important enough to not confirm this negative news. So did he lie? Uncertain. Did he obfuscate the situation to make things seem not as negative and/or dire? Absolutely. Do I think that the Stargate PTB do this as needed when things get sticky? Yep.

That's exactly it, that's why I could never take anything he says as an absolute fact.

Edit: yay, not closed yet.