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GateWorld
February 14th, 2007, 06:04 PM
<DIV ALIGN=CENTER><TABLE WIDTH=450 BORDER=0 CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=7><TR><TD STYLE="border:0;"><DIV ALIGN=LEFT><FONT FACE="Arial" SIZE=2 COLOR="#000000"><A HREF="http://www.scifistream.com/doctor-who/s3/"><IMG SRC="http://www.scifistream.com/wp-content/uploads/304.jpg" WIDTH=160 HEIGHT=120 ALIGN=RIGHT HSPACE=10 VSPACE=2 BORDER=0 STYLE="border:1px solid #000;" ALT="Visit the Episode Guide"></A><FONT SIZE=1 COLOR="#888888">DOCTOR WHO SERIES 29</FONT>
<FONT SIZE=4><A HREF="http://www.scifistream.com/doctor-who/s3/" STYLE="text-decoration: none">DALEKS IN MANHATTAN</A></FONT>
<FONT SIZE=1>EPISODE NUMBER - 2904</FONT>
<IMG SRC="/images/clear.gif" WIDTH=1 HEIGHT=10 ALT="">
In 1930 New York City, the surviving Daleks take advantage of Depression-era poverty to construct the Empire State Building and to experiment on their future evolution. The Doctor and Martha come to the aid of a chorus girl when her boyfriend goes missing.

<FONT SIZE=1><B><A HREF="http://www.scifistream.com/doctor-who/s3/">VISIT THE EPISODE GUIDE >></A></B></FONT></FONT></DIV></TD></TR></TABLE></DIV>

Billz
April 21st, 2007, 10:46 AM
These are the worst american accents I have ever heard.

A more in-depth review to come after the episode finishes.

Missster.Freeman
April 21st, 2007, 10:59 AM
What do ya mean? D'ose akcents are poifect, oi tells ya!

Alas, I'll have to watch it later. I was too busy and I've missed a good ten minutes of this week's episode.

Admiral Mappalazarou
April 21st, 2007, 11:59 AM
lol I liked the accents.

Chaka's_Mum
April 21st, 2007, 12:05 PM
lol I liked the accents.

I have to admit I wasn't tuned in to the accents that much, but I was settled back with my head on a cushion and therefore only really listening with one ear. Plus the window was a bit open so I was getting quite a lot of traffic noise too.

That said, I quite enjoyed the efforts with the accents where I picked them up more clearly - though of course they're not always successful!

Admiral Mappalazarou
April 21st, 2007, 12:52 PM
An okay episode, I preferred last weeks.

I feel like they're really over-using the Daleks now, even if it is the cult of Skaro that remains. I preferred the first part of the episode to the last part and wondered why the Daleks didn't recognise the Doctor....It was an interesting episode overall.

Here's my theory for next week;

The normal Daleks will turn against Dalek Sec because of his evolution, and the Doctor will then have to stop both sides from destroying humanity with the aid of the poor people.

wise one
April 21st, 2007, 12:53 PM
i found that episode very dissapointing, was as good then i thought

Naonak
April 21st, 2007, 02:09 PM
This was probably the weakest episode of the season so far, to be honest, although it was by no means bad. There was nothing actually bad about it, the positives just weren't that strong.

I liked the conversation about what date it was. "You're getting good at this?"

This is a very... interesting move for the producers to make, regarding the Daleks. Hopefully they won't get of the old pepper pots for good. :D

The Pig-Slaves must be of really low intelligence to not notice the Doctor and Laszlo slipping in with the other prisoners. :rolleyes:

So has Martha actually become a companion now, or is he still doing the "just one more trip" thing. He mentioned something about New York being a detour...

6-7/10

pbellosom
April 21st, 2007, 03:10 PM
This was probably the weakest episode of the season so far, to be honest, although it was by no means bad. There was nothing actually bad about it, the positives just weren't that strong.

It's true.



The normal Daleks will turn against Dalek Sec because of his evolution, and the Doctor will then have to stop both sides from destroying humanity with the aid of the poor people.

I totally agree with you on that one.

I thought the accents were awful.

The Signal
April 21st, 2007, 03:13 PM
I'm torn on this one, the scenes in the sewers, and the scenes in the Empire State Building seemed very classic Who, on the other hand you had the slightly... naff (technical term that ;)) scenes which just put me off entirely, which basically adds up to everything in the theater, and any scene with that god aweful showgirl in the angel costume.

6/10 - some moments of brilliance, but they weren't enough to make up for the weaker parts of the ep.

Favorite line:

Martha: Daleks? - One word, but it showed a major difference between the increasingly impressive Martha, and Rose. Martha recognised the name from last week's ep, but didn't make a big deal of it. Rose on the other hand, would have probably gone on for a while. I also like Martha barking orders at The Daleks, just something about her absolute confidence, made me smile.

I agree with Map, considering the hints in this episode, I'd say there's going to be a Doctor, Thay, Jast and Caan vs Human Sec all out battle in the next ep, with the residents of Hooverville in the crossfire

Easter Lily
April 21st, 2007, 04:19 PM
I liked this episode well enough although I'm not sure I want to see Animal Farm every week. The accents? Well, I'm not American so I didn't find them too grating. Tellulah's was probably the most obviously put on...

All those things aside, I thought this was a compelling episode. Slow moving but not inappropriately so. I liked the Depression backdrop and as someone else has said, there are a lot of classic Who elements to it. I'm especially glad to see them taking the Daleks to a different level because after seeing last week's preview I was thinking... "Eeeuw... not another Dalek ep. Die already." But the idea of them "evolving" is interesting.

I'm really liking S3 so far. :)

Shipperahoy
April 21st, 2007, 04:51 PM
I thought it was a pretty good episode but I agree that the Daleks are starting to lose their impact from overuse. As far as the accents go, some of them were quite good but when they were bad....ooh boy were they bad. Of course most Americans couldn't do a convincing British accent to save their lives so I shouldn't say anything.

ShadowMaat
April 21st, 2007, 05:28 PM
It's that whole Brooklyn accent thing. It always sounds fake and cheesy, even when Americans are doing it. :P Farm Boy wasn't too bad and the Mayor of Hooverville was okay, but Tallulah (or however it's spelled) was awful... which kinda matched her character, actually. Very over done. Ditto the Architect and the rest of 'em.

Not quite sure what to make of the ep yet. It was a little disjointed in places but I still liked it. The "Human Dalek" is kinda icky and I'm not sure I like the look of it. Too much human, not enough Dalek, maybe.

Still loving Martha. Loved her ordering the Daleks around. "Report!" hee!

One thing that confused me, though, is how come the intelligence scan didn't pick up the fact that she's a time traveler? I suppose it's one of those things that you have to be looking for in order to pick up on it, but it still seemed a little ood odd. ;)

I agree that the Daleks are being overplayed, though. We had them early in S27 and then in the finale, we had them in the S28 finale, we've got them again now and they're probably going to put in an appearance later this season... C'mon, I know Daleks are one of the uber-baddies, but that doesn't mean we have to run into them all the time.

knowles2
April 21st, 2007, 06:01 PM
Personally their should be the very last time we see them, for at least ten years.


They getting boring, that do not look interesting, and some of the shots of them seemed to unreal, and poorly done, compare to past epidsodes.


Part from that it was alright, the accents, we just call even shall we, when American shows/films start making sure they have descent english accent we can make our sure how have descent american accent.

Willow'sCat
April 21st, 2007, 06:36 PM
You know I am beginning to think I am on a completely different page to the rest of the Doctor Who fans on GW.

I loved this! Made all the better as it isn't being rushed (2 parter). :D

I don't think you can over-use The Daleks, they are Doctor Who as much as Darth Vader is Star Wars *shrugs* maybe why they are being "used" could be better realised in these episodes, but I have thought that with almost all of the Classic episodes featuring The Daleks without Davros ;) to me it was Davros that made the episodes what they were.

The Daleks have always been his creatures, his slaves even, they never should have been able to go forth and be their own race (plan or no plan) and I am not a fan of the Cult and I also think Davros and The Doctor had a weird but interesting relationship, you just cannot have a relationship with a Dalek, they are not made that way, so ultimately you end up with a Dalek ranting about supreme beings and a Doctor just trying to kill them. :cool: :rolleyes:

All that aside.

I liked the location, the accents were believable in the way that accents never are on TV and I also liked the three stories coming together it felt so much like a Classic Who episode that when the big reveal happened I didn't cringe at the very questionable make up job :p it was like watching "The brain of Morbius" again! lol

I am doubtful about the experiments, The Daleks should prefer death over (what?) melding their DNA with humans, humans are nothing but scum to The Daleks. I hope next week we find out what is really going on as that will not sit well with me, I mean all the races and they choose the one they hate the most, why? Just because we survive? I bet the rats survive too why not use them. :rolleyes:

Did others pick up on the shielding of the Dalek missing? I assume that is what the panelling is made of; so who or what are they summoning? Or is the plan to destroy Earth after they take all the intelligent people, and if it is intelligence they want why on earth did they start with Americans!!! :p :D *runs away*

Down side.

Really annoyed with the Martha TimeLord!Crush. :cool: I did like the line: "he likes musical theatre".

Also the pigs? That made zero sense to me, why not just use people? Resources being what they are I don't see why they needed to go the extra mile and waste time and effort "transforming" them into pig slaves.

While not perfect, this is IMHO the best one of series 29 so far; but I will wait until next week to make my mind up completely. There are just too many unanswered questions.

Elinor
April 21st, 2007, 11:27 PM
Also the pigs? That made zero sense to me, why not just use people? Resources being what they are I don't see why they needed to go the extra mile and waste time and effort "transforming" them into pig slaves.



Yes, I thought the same. Just didn't see the point of them really. Perhaps we'll learn a bit more next week.

I thought this episode took a while to get going. My mind wandered off a few times 'cos I got a bit bored! Got better toward the end though.

Intriguing idea to have the Daleks evolve. I hope they do. I just can't get past that '60's' look they still have, even though they've been 'whizzed' up a bit! :D

It'll be interesting to see where they go with this.

:)

Easter Lily
April 22nd, 2007, 12:04 AM
^^ I liked it... I like the set up and I thought DT was particularly good. In fact, he's been great the last few episodes.
The accents... meh... I don't care... I don't know any better... Apparently most of the actors were American anyway. Frank, the farm boy, Diagonas and Lazslo are Americans apparently.
The running around along corridors sewer tunnels reminded me of classic Who...
The makeshift Who lab was cool... it's been a while since the Doctor was in scientist mode.

Commander Ivanova
April 22nd, 2007, 12:13 AM
Hmmn, main problem for me was that I was distracted by some of the accents and a lot of the acting.

The pig-men extras were too lethargic and apathetic to make proper henchmen, they needed to put a bit more effort into their lumbering down tunnels intimidating the humans shtick.
Foreman guy should've been screaming and gibbering in terror, not just standing there being ever-so-lightly restrained by a couple of half-asleep goons and asking intelligent and pertinent questions that cleverly helped to advance the plot.
What is it with the animal masks, first rhinos now pigs. And why pigs? Unless that bit will be explained next week.
And the guys on top of the Empire State looked exactly like they were farting about in a studio with the wind machine on medium. Come on, the fella's wobbly cap even managed to stay on in a 'howling gale'!
The make-up job on the Dalek-human hybrid was awful. (On the other hand, in the classic Who tradition so maybe not so bad.)

On the upside, it was nice to get out of London for a change.
I'm not tired of the Daleks - yet. But it's getting close.
And Martha is great.

Easter Lily
April 22nd, 2007, 12:20 AM
The make-up job on the Dalek-human hybrid was awful. (On the other hand, in the classic Who tradition so maybe not so bad.)


I was thinking Scaroni from The City of Death.

Commander Ivanova
April 22nd, 2007, 01:51 AM
Forgot to say the overt shipping of Martha and the Doc, especially in the media (what did anyone else think of the TV ads?), is my least favorite aspect of the current series. Please don't ship the Doctor (unless it's with Cap'n Jack of course ;))

wise one
April 22nd, 2007, 02:31 AM
judging from next week episode it looks like the daleks would be exterminated once and for all with their vunerability!!!

Willow'sCat
April 22nd, 2007, 02:49 AM
judging from next week episode Hmm, not that what you posted is a real spoiler but if you must talk about specualtion to do with another episode (a future one) can you please put it in spoil tags with a reason for the tags so no-one has to accidently be spoiled? :cool:

Reefgirl
April 22nd, 2007, 04:42 AM
I have to say I wasn't impressed with this episode at all, that's about all I have to say, it felt poorly written. Tallulah's accent was naff, Soloman/Bloke from Casualty City looked really out of place as hardman/peacemaker in Hooverville. I spent the first half wondering whether Black-Suit-Soprano-Type-Bloke was going to end up as Davros and thinking how much he looked like my Other Half's brother, that's how much impact the episode made. And talking of The Sopranos where were the Mafia? they would have wanted a piece of the action AND the had the unions sewn up, sorry I'm a history buff and tend to pick holes in these kind of episodes. All in all a huge disappointment

Dusk
April 22nd, 2007, 06:25 AM
Hmmmmmm... quite possibly the strangest Who episode I've ever seen, and that's saying something! I can't imagine what non-Who watchers would make of all this...

I too am tiring of the Daleks, true they are classic villains in the show, but with too much exposure, they lose their effect. Their 'evolution', whilst bold and slightly disturbing, is yet another example of anthropomorphizing in sci-fi that is unnecessary and pointless. More on this next week.

You're all complaining of the accents, but have any of you been to New York? There are people in downtown Manhattan that sound exactly like Telullah, neow kiddin'! I loved her character the most, truly played to perfection. The stage show was great!

Taking the series out of London is an EXCELLENT direction, and they really need to do this more often. Putting the story amongst a well-known historical event is also a perfect decision.

As for the pig-men... um, no. I don't know what they were thinking. They've done pigs, time to move on. I mean pigs?? This element of the story heavily depreciates from the potential quality. Uhhhhh...

All in all, entertaining enough to keep me watching. I fear, however, that next week will be virtually a carbon copy of this one, with some added Dalek assaults on huu-mans.

ShadowMaat
April 22nd, 2007, 06:38 AM
Unless the Daleks are somehow connected with the Slitheen (and given the time frame, that seems unlikely) the pig-men seem a little strange. Although I suppose a case could be built that the pig-men were a way to perfect the formula (whatever they were injecting into Sek) for the Dalek-man.

Commander Ivanova
April 22nd, 2007, 06:50 AM
I suppose a case could be built that the pig-men were a way to perfect the formula (whatever they were injecting into Sek) for the Dalek-man.

You could be right, if I recall right pig DNA is fairly similar to human DNA. We're already using pigs to grow human organs. So genetic human/pig hybrid experiments would make perfect sense in the Dr Who world.

ShadowMaat
April 22nd, 2007, 07:07 AM
Yeah, but where pig and human DNA might be a close match, I highly doubt that Dalek and human DNA are even in the same playing field. Or if it is, there goes the whole "Daleks are superior" argument. LOL!

MechaThor
April 22nd, 2007, 07:17 AM
A good episode not as good as last weeks classic however.

Although the daleks are starting to get over shown a still find it intresting to watch them talk amoung themselves and to other people as if they where a true lifeform and not just an "exsterinating evil robot".

The pig slaves look cool however i am confused?
Why Pig slaves? Where the first ones actually modified pigs? or where they all Humans? If so why turn humans into Pigs?

One last thing what was that Jellyfish? a baby dalek? in was disapointed that no one said "it looks like a jellyfish" when he question what it is.

6.5/10

ShadowMaat
April 22nd, 2007, 07:44 AM
Yeah, I was a bit confused as to why no one made the jellyfish connection, either. Or at least said, "Watch out for the tentacles, they might sting," which was one of MY first thoughts. ;)

Pitry
April 22nd, 2007, 10:29 AM
Agreed this was prolly the weakest of the episodes so far (this series, I'd still take it every day over Idiot's Lantern!) - but I suspect, at least on my part, this has had something to dow ith me really waiting for a showdown between the Doctors and the Daleks, something like CE got to do in Dalek, after everything and Doomsday. Alas, it seems this would be put off for another week.

The accents? No, unlike Dalek (sorry, I love Anna Louise Plowman, but American accents aren't her strongest point) I bought them. Might be because I'm actually rather used to heavy Brooklyn accents :)

Anopther week point was the way tey tried to get the Hooverville efeling - yeah, all true and history, but they should have done it more subtle, felt like preaching more than showing an episode. And coming from me that's rich because I usually don't mind too much :)

Martha was great - as someone mentioned her "report!" bit to the Daleks, loved that! And the "Hey, I know that name" face when she heard the word Dalek, bwaha. Oh, yeah, one thing - whatever happened to "one trip on the TARDIS and then home?" Felt a bit like The Powers That Be, Teal'c joining the team off world without any apparent explanation.

Oy, Dalek man.... it definitely looked like a cross ebtween Davros and the green alien monster from city of death.... I actually thought it was quite anice touch, the one-eyed-Davros-esque bit, it'd make sense the Daleks, when taking human form, would try and get as mucha s Davros - hopweevr I'm not sure I'm too hot on that human-form Dalek bit, I know they addressed the purity issue but I still think Daleks would be much more aversed to the idea.
Ah, well, let's hope next week's gonna deliever the Doctor-Daleks show down, hooray,....

Easter Lily
April 22nd, 2007, 03:35 PM
If memory serves, the original daleks were humanoid... they were descendants of the Thal race, mutated after a nuclear holocaust.
I'm sure those among us who are more knowledgeable will be correct me if I'm wrong.

SaberBlade
April 22nd, 2007, 04:34 PM
I have to say, the whole 30's accents and the name Tallulah had me expecting pies to be thrown at some point. I had this "i'm gonna fill you full of lead"/Bugsy Malone feeling when watching the episode. I think someone may have been watching a bit too many gangster movies in mind when they wrote it.

But I am surprised at the Dalek's in this episode, by how far they'll fallen. During the cyberman invasion, the Dalek's said it would take just one to defeat 5 million cybermen, but 4 Dalek's can't destroy humanity in 1930's America and need to resort to making themselves less pure by incorporating human DNA. If the Dalek's enounctered by the 8th hated themselves because they were created from human, to have a member of the cult become the Davros seems to be a complete change of character.

I have to say that no one saying the "dalek" looked like a jelly fish surprised me. It's the first thing that came to my mind when I saw it.

Willow'sCat
April 22nd, 2007, 04:47 PM
If memory serves, the original daleks were humanoid... they were descendants of the Thal race, mutated after a nuclear holocaust.
I'm sure those among us who are more knowledgeable will be correct me if I'm wrong.They were I believe mutated and then mutated again by Davros and encased in what we commonly call The Dalek, I don't recall the "race" originally being so single minded, I think that is all Davros. The master race influence was his alone. *I think* Canon in Doctor Who is not my strong point and even if it was I have a feeling Canon in Doctor Who is confused to begin with, and not getting any clearer. ;) :D

BBC site has a beginner's guide to Doctor Who which just confuses me! :D

cheese
April 22nd, 2007, 04:50 PM
Worst episode of the new run I'd say. Hardly a single positive point after the last few minutes. Why didn't the Daleks recognise the Doctor? They recognised him within seconds in the finale last year. Those exact Daleks have met him. They know what he looks like.
The New York accents were poor. The storyline was pretty weak, considering how well plotted the last few episodes have been. I don't like the direction they are going with the Daleks in this, the new evolved Dalek surely is much weaker without the armoured shell, shields and weapons.

A few chuckles saved it from utter drivel.

A causal viewer friend said if this was the first episode they'd seen they'd never watch again... I'd be seriously tempted to skip the next episode if the preview hadn't shown that there was going to be a few good explosions.

Phantom Limb
April 22nd, 2007, 05:13 PM
But I am surprised at the Dalek's in this episode, by how far they'll fallen. During the cyberman invasion, the Dalek's said it would take just one to defeat 5 million cybermen, but 4 Dalek's can't destroy humanity in 1930's America and need to resort to making themselves less pure by incorporating human DNA. If the Dalek's enounctered by the 8th hated themselves because they were created from human, to have a member of the cult become the Davros seems to be a complete change of character.

completely agree, it just goes to show the writing talent of RTD far outstrips that of Helen Raynor (writer of the Torchwood ep, Ghost Machine) IMO.
RTD knows how to write for the Daleks, he knows their character and motivations, he knows their history. The biggest problem i had with the ep is that the Daleks are trivialised, they're like any other Doctor Who monster where as before it had always been an event to see those plunger wielding pepperpots.
but none, and i mean none of the Dalek dialogue was memorable, where was all the character we saw in Doomsday? the dialogue they had in that was great, the fact that even when they're down and out they still think they can "exterminate!" everything non Dalek and win, and that as mentioned in the quote is a massive plot hole in this ep, Daleks where bred to hate and kill, why not just obliterate mankind in the 1930's?
ok the cult of Skarro were given imaginations and allowed to think outside the box as it were, but they still have the Daleks prime directives, they are in New York in the 1930's humanity would have no hope of survival, did we even see a Dalek kill anything in this episode!? no they piss off and build the empire state building, wha? Daleks werent ever exactly known for their subtlety, but they're skulking and scheming like the slitheen, and who gives a s*** about them.

hmm, i feel i should end on a positive note, performances from the lead actors were top notch as usual, ive liked Martha more than Rose from the moment she came on screen and Tennant as usual just fantastic, and the moment where the Dalek came out of the lift was pretty cool i thought, just seeing the styles of Dalek and art deco together looked good on screen.
im not going to comment on the pig people for the simple reason that this is Doctor Who, nuff said.

bring on "Evolution of the Daleks" where hopefully we'll get to see some old school Dalek romper stomping.

Matt G
April 22nd, 2007, 05:14 PM
OK...

1. Not sure what the point of the pig things were, surely the Daleks could have come up with better henchmen.

2. Accents...known worse.

3. I liked the idea of Diagonis, not so sure I like the idea of this Dalek-human hybrid.

4. Definately liked Martha here.

Overall though, nice ideas, but it felt like the weakest of the Dalek eps. Still solid though and better than Gridlock.

Easter Lily
April 22nd, 2007, 05:46 PM
They were I believe mutated and then mutated again by Davros and encased in what we commonly call The Dalek, I don't recall the "race" originally being so single minded, I think that is all Davros. The master race influence was his alone. *I think* Canon in Doctor Who is not my strong point and even if it was I have a feeling Canon in Doctor Who is confused to begin with, and not getting any clearer. ;) :D

BBC site has a beginner's guide to Doctor Who which just confuses me! :D

I decided to have a look at the Wikipedia entry and apparently Terry Nation fudged with Dalek continuity so I'm not surprised that we're confused. :D
Basically, what you've said is what I've read in Wikipedia. They were experimented on further by Davros (The Genesis of the Dalek) to become emotionless, killing machines.

I am very surprised at the general dislike for this episode. I must be more easy to please than I thought! :D I've seen it twice and like it even more on second viewing. I think it's better than The Shakespeare Code, to be honest.

Jonzey
April 22nd, 2007, 05:59 PM
Missed out on a brilliant opportunity in this episode. I was waiting for the Doctor to make a quip about being pig-headed. If it doesn't happin in part 2 I'll be really disappointed.

ShadowMaat
April 22nd, 2007, 06:10 PM
Why pigs? This is the second time we've had aliens creating pig people. Even if you disregard the entire simian family aren't there still other animals who are "similar" to us?

unruhbrady
April 22nd, 2007, 08:31 PM
These are the worst american accents I have ever heard.

thery're not 'american" accents they are 1930's Brooklyn accents...sound VERY diffrent from an "american" accent I for one found them right on the money!

ShadowMaat
April 22nd, 2007, 08:55 PM
The accent probably is authentic, but that doesn't make it good. :P

Not fond of NY/Brooklyn accents, authentic or otherwise.

docballen
April 22nd, 2007, 10:04 PM
The accent probably is authentic, but that doesn't make it good. :P

Not fond of NY/Brooklyn accents, authentic or otherwise.

Yeah, it's a Brooklyn accent... ol' Talullah reminds me of Bugs Bunny. (I like Bugs Bunny.)

I'm having trouble watching this episode... my usual source has run dry. I'm an American so I can't download it from BBC. **sigh**

Willow'sCat
April 23rd, 2007, 03:02 AM
I decided to have a look at the Wikipedia entry and apparently Terry Nation fudged with Dalek continuity so I'm not surprised that we're confused.
Basically, what you've said is what I've read in Wikipedia. They were experimented on further by Davros (The Genesis of the Dalek) to become emotionless, killing machines.I love the "The Genesis of the Daleks" I can actually remember the first time I watched it (on its first run in Australia) scared the life out of me. :D

I think if Doctor Who fandom can agree on anything it is that canon has been fudge a lot over the years to suite the plot/storyline of the day. I don't really mind that, and after so many years it is not surprising.


I am very surprised at the general dislike for this episode. I must be more easy to please than I thought! :D I've seen it twice and like it even more on second viewing. I think it's better than The Shakespeare Code, to be honest.
I'm not surprised; I think many had already said before the episode aired that they were sick of seeing The Daleks. I agree on The Shakespeare Code, but then I wasn't that impressed with the witches so.... :D

Back to the ep: One thing that is really bugging me, the guy, the one in charge of the project. Why use him? There is no way he was the most intelligent of the lot, even if we are meant to buy that The Daleks are a little slow when understanding what true intelligence is (they seemed happy with him just being greedy for power and control) they had that test thing (which is new to me) but I don't remember them checking him just to be sure? So why make such a huge decision just on one minor rant about power?

This is the problem with the episode so far there are too many plot holes, too many unanswered questions, too many weird decisions being made by The Daleks.

Oh and the reason IMHO that they (The Daleks) have fallen so low as some have said, is because in Doomsday they knew they had the Arc (full of Daleks) it (the stuff about 4 Daleks taking on all those Cybermen) was "trash talk".

They now know they are alone, there is no Arc, no army of Daleks waiting in the wings, all the other Daleks have been sent to the void thingy.

They are as alone as The Doctor, which is the plot and the whole point of the episode, to rebuild themselves into an army of human/Dalek things. ;) :D

Tanduay
April 23rd, 2007, 03:21 AM
I thought it was an ok ep.

As for the accents. You should remember that NY was the principle arrival point for immigrants. In 1900 the population was 3,437,202, by 1930 it was 6,930,446.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Demographics_of_New_York_City

If anything the mix of accents would have been even worse.

The pigmen? Daleks have used roboslaves before but I think it would be part of their "genetic" modification plan to mess about with DNA for research purposes rather than helmets on this occasion. As has been pointed out above (and in the ep "most men are pigs") human and pig DNA is close enough to make really simple slaves. Looks like robomen might be in the next ep as well.

I had my doubts about a black man fighting in WW1 what with the segregation but I did some research and found limited numbers were allowed.

"The treatment of Negro soldiers was very poor considering Pershing’s nickname of Black Jack came from early service in the then Negro 10th Cavalry. Only the 368th Infantry of the Buffalo Division saw action briefly, the rest being used as pioneers, but four independent Negro units saw action with the French Army: 369th (ex-15th New York Infantry), 370th (ex-8th Illinois Infantry), 371st and 372nd Infantry, the 369th served 191 days in the line, longer than any other unit. The French were so impressed with the Negroes they called them the Black Watch!"
http://www.powell76.freeserve.co.uk/Americans%20in%20WW1.htm

The new hybrid is certainly rather Davrosy.

Too many people guessing the Doctor is an alien these days I thought.

Pitry
April 23rd, 2007, 03:53 AM
Back to the ep: One thing that is really bugging me, the guy, the one in charge of the project. Why use him? There is no way he was the most intelligent of the lot, even if we are meant to buy that The Daleks are a little slow when understanding what true intelligence is (they seemed happy with him just being greedy for power and control) they had that test thing (which is new to me) but I don't remember them checking him just to be sure? So why make such a huge decision just on one minor rant about power?


I thougth that was the point tho. With their arrogance, they classify people tolower and higher intelligene but they never consider any of them as intelligent as a Dalek. His greed for power, however, reminds them of a Dalek - so, rather than choose by intelligence which they think they can't match, they'd go witht he most Dalek-esque trait they can find.

Well, reasonable to me :)

Reefgirl
April 23rd, 2007, 03:53 AM
I also had problems with Black man serving in the army and being the 'leader' of Hooverville, 1930 was only 65 years after the civil war ended and yes I know New York is in the North but attitudes hadn't changed that far that quickly, surely?

ShadowMaat
April 23rd, 2007, 04:31 AM
I thought they used the builder guy because he thinks like a Dalek.

Did anyone else pick up on the echo between the Daleks and the Doctor? In the scene where the Dalek's looking out over the city, it makes some complaint about how humanity always survives while the Daleks suffer (or something to that effect.

In a later scene the Doctor vents about how the Daleks always survive while he's left with nothing.

Thought it was interesting how they see things.

Anubis69
April 23rd, 2007, 06:36 AM
I think this whole story arc hinges on whatever the fudge the Daleks are doing with The Empire State Building. If it turns out to be some death ray that turns everyone into those really suave pin-stripe suited weirdos then it would be absolutely fabulous! But ridiculous. I hope there's some more depth to it than that.

I agree with whoever said that the Dalek dialogue was lacking. It was just generic bad-guy talk. And not even particularly menacing at that.

(I apologise about the fashion comment(s), but I couldn't resist a couple of those gags. Come on, an alien cyclops... in a suit? Only in Doctor Who.)

Daleks in Manhattan, Evolution of the Daleks... The Daleks Wear Prada?

Commander Ivanova
April 23rd, 2007, 07:44 AM
Daleks in Manhattan, Evolution of the Daleks... The Daleks Wear Prada?

Now that WOULD be progress, LOL! :D

Jenn Calaelen
April 23rd, 2007, 09:05 AM
I think part of the problem with the episode was the fact that they put the Daleks in the preview of the episode. It would have been far more interesting to keep them as a suprise as there didn't really seem to be much in the episode that had not been shown in the preview.
It had some good moments, but was the first episode this season that I didn't want to watch again, having seen it for the first time.

jonno
April 23rd, 2007, 10:02 AM
Yeah - it was a bit of a disappointment - slightly less than a standard episode, but compounded because it was a dalek ep, which we expect to be the best.

I don't think there was even an 'EX-TER-MIN-ATE' in the entire episode...

Jenn Calaelen
April 23rd, 2007, 10:34 AM
I don't think there was even an 'EX-TER-MIN-ATE' in the entire episode...

I'm pretty certain that there wasn't. I hadn't thought of it at the time!

Pitry
April 23rd, 2007, 11:31 AM
I thought they used the builder guy because he thinks like a Dalek.

Did anyone else pick up on the echo between the Daleks and the Doctor? In the scene where the Dalek's looking out over the city, it makes some complaint about how humanity always survives while the Daleks suffer (or something to that effect.

In a later scene the Doctor vents about how the Daleks always survive while he's left with nothing.

Thought it was interesting how they see things.

Actually I felt there was a differnet parallel - the Dalek going on about his homeowrld being destroyed in the Time War. Reminds me of someone... ;)

Commander Ivanova
April 23rd, 2007, 12:37 PM
I think part of the problem with the episode was the fact that they put the Daleks in the preview of the episode.

The title was a bit of a giveaway too, LOL, does what it says on the tin!

Willow'sCat
April 23rd, 2007, 04:28 PM
The title was a bit of a giveaway too, LOL, does what it says on the tin!LOL! That was my thought.

And back to the guy (the builder guy) being used. I understand the base reason being he has a ruthless streak (and as I said power, greed and all that) but The Doctor said it himself The Daleks are intelligent, they should (if only to make them more menacing) be smart enough to go on more then just a "rant" from a human. It may have been why they used him but it makes The Daleks look stupid and impulsive which I don't think they are. :cool:

If they had added a line about needing to do this now, because "such and such" a time was coming (made it super urgent) then I could buy it, but other then the usual urgency of these things ;) it seemed like the same old same old.

*yes I know the tower thing needed to be completed urgently but we get no indication that they both linked*

Madeleine
April 24th, 2007, 03:48 AM
I thought this was a real mix of good and bad. It semed very jumbled. The script and the look of the piece were fine, and the concept of a human-dalek hybrid is a great next step for the pepperpots, but somehow the episode just didn't seem right.

Then I read -


Helen Raynor... was given this shopping list by Davies: "New York 1030s, Pig Men, sewers, showgirls, the empire State Building - and Daleks."

- and all became clear. I'm sorry, I know little about TV scripts so it may be commonplace for the show runner to hand out shopping lists, but it seems to me a naff way to go about things: you start with a bunch of disparate things and have to tie them together in a way that may be contrived or it may be ineffective, but is certainly artificial.

And although this 'evolution' is a good idea for how to use the Daleks, they are definitely getting overused.

Pitry
April 24th, 2007, 04:20 AM
It sounded to me tho as if that's the way RTD dopes with all the writers who aren't him - DW doesn't have a regular writing staff (other than RTD), does it?
I think it's uncommon for television but common for Doctor who.

Madeleine
April 24th, 2007, 04:26 AM
Oh. Maybe other writers are better at it, or maybe other lists are more easy to mesh, or maybe this one just wasn't suited so well to my tastes.

The sproggies loved it, anyway.

Asthaloth
April 24th, 2007, 03:32 PM
My Theory;
Sek activates the Dalekeium enhanced tower, turning several humans into Huleks, and flees into time to be encountered next series.
They always survive afterall, and Three Daleks and a Hulek isn't really going to be doing too much damage by themselves...
Well okay, the Emperor messed thing's up nicely, but Doomsday doesn't count as they had the Prison ship there.

RDFXapollo
April 24th, 2007, 11:42 PM
The americans sounded very funny *giggles* and I think I might be the only on ehow thought it but didn't the human darlek look like davi jones out pirates of the caribeen.
It isn't the best darlek storyline but I have to say it was a very well written episode :cameron:

Willow'sCat
April 26th, 2007, 03:55 AM
Aw, I think a lot of scifi shows go with the shopping list or at least it would explain a lot about what went wrong with Torchwood.

We are not talking stellar TV, no matter how much I love my Doctor Who I am more then aware of all the faults ;) I just think in some ways the faults here may become less so when the second half airs.

Of course I could be wrong. :rolleyes:

EDIT: Spoilers "Evolution of the Daleks" you are warned....I was so very, very wrong. :S :P

Madeleine
April 26th, 2007, 12:40 PM
Aw, I think a lot of scifi shows go with the shopping list or at least it would explain a lot about what went wrong with Torchwood.

Torchwood Shopping list
6 pints blood
9 swearwords of a mild nature
12 swearwords that rhyme with "duck"
A same-sex kiss
Gwen lying to Rhys
Jack looking dishy
Attempted or actual sexual assault
Don't forget the same-sex kiss, mind
Shots of Glamourous Cardiff

Pitry
April 26th, 2007, 01:30 PM
You forgot the sex scene(s). Can't really be Torchwood without the sex scenes. :)

Madeleine
April 26th, 2007, 11:01 PM
d'oh!

Missster.Freeman
May 1st, 2007, 06:55 PM
Well finally! I almost never watched this episode after reading through the thread. I'll have to try and steer clear of the discussion threads if I miss an episode on its first run.

The episode wasn't too bad; it was a bit predictable in places - I instantly knew that Laszlo wouldn't make it out of the sewers - but there were some brilliant scenes particularly Martha, who was excellent in this episode. I was impressed with how she managed to summon up some courage to order the Daleks around even though she looked terrified. She just gets better with each episode.

I don't know what to make of the new and improved Dalek (Hulek?) hybrid other than that he sure is one ugly looking...thing. I have a couple of questions. Did we see those pig slaves in an earlier episode (I'm sure I did) and should I watch part 2? :S

ShadowMaat
May 1st, 2007, 07:07 PM
Did we see those pig slaves in an earlier episode (I'm sure I did) and should I watch part 2? :S
The Slitheen modified a regular pig to look humanoid (although small) to act as "pilot" to their "crashed alien space ship."

Darkstar 2.0
May 11th, 2007, 04:37 AM
Not enough Art-Deco, too much pork and too much Extermination mixed in.

Wasen't good enough to keep me watching and in a rare event I got up and did something else rather than watch more, that for me is bad, I can watch Dr to the end then feel good or bad but this episode was awful, the Accents were terrible and the whole social depression idea was way too familiar like the first quater of King-Kong.....I didn't even want to see the next episode and so I skipped it and saw the one after out of protest.

2/10 at a push :(

Trek_Girl42
July 16th, 2007, 10:07 PM
Weird ep. After hearing everything about it, I was prepared for the worst, so it wasn't as bad as I imagined. There just wasn't much there..... No really great dialogue. Tallulah's accent was dreadful (I thought the rest were okay), but then again Brooklyn accents realy bother me to begin with. Actually, the entire character of Tallulah was dreadful. Sewers were good, Martha was great, again. Sciencey Doctor was good, was expecting a jellyfish comment, as someone said earlier in the thread it's like Animal Farm every week now. :P But the pigs didn't bother me, they're pretty low on the complaint list. But I thought the "evolved" Dalik looked pretty stupid, and the "cliffhanger" didn't even feel cliff-hangery.....it didn't feel like peril. All in all, this episode didn't leave me weeping for next week (we didn't even get a promo), like every other ep of Doctor Who has.

Easily the weakest ep of the season, the only one that I haven't loved.

MmmmMcKAy
July 17th, 2007, 05:03 PM
Wow, you summed up "Daleks in Manhatten" very well, Trek Girl. It was not an engaging episode, at all. I almost found myself bored....and I'm never bored during Doctor Who. ;)

Disappointing after 3 really good episodes. Hopefully, number 5 will be an improvement.

MasySyma
July 27th, 2007, 08:31 PM
That was odd. It felt like a Doctor-lite episode even though it wasn't.

I agree with removing the Daleks for awhile or at least feed them to cybermen. They were much better last time. Why did four Daleks make it to New York? At the end of Series 2, it looks like only Dalek Sec makes the temporal shift. I agree that the Doctor should have been a bit more worried about the jelly-fish thing, given he saw the inside of a Dalek with Rose.

The pig people made no sense to me either. I agree that while pigs are close to humans in some physical aspects, the experiments still don't explain why we couldn't have Dalek racoons or Dalek sewer rats.

The episode was also dreadfully slow. One family member on my end quit watching, and I found myself constantly staring at the clock. The bad song didn't help.

I like Martha, and her behavior this episode continues to show why she is a great companion for the Doctor. It just wasn't enough to save a bad episode.

A 6/10. I hope it will get better, but I doubt it based on the other thread. At least we got to skip the Ninja monks or someone screaming "Feed Me" this time. :)

ShadowMaat
July 29th, 2007, 05:51 PM
For all that everyone (including myself, I think) have complained about Tallulah's accent I'm watching Singin' in the Rain right now and the character Lina Lamont sounds quite a bit like Tallulah... only more annoying. ;)

maneth
July 10th, 2012, 10:27 PM
:lol: Funnily enough Tallulah's accent didn't bother me nearly as much as her name! Made me think of Bankhead far too much. Those "special" Daleks that do something more than just chant "exterminate, exterminate" all the time are boring, IMO. And the hybrid looked like a man with a jellyfish on his head.

maneth
August 20th, 2014, 08:11 PM
No better on second viewing, I'm afraid...