PDA

View Full Version : Atlantis turning into Spooks



knowles2
March 11th, 2007, 03:54 AM
Well I have just been reading Joe blog.

And he was talking about how he likes spooks.

Just in case you do not know what Spooks is, it a BBC show about a team of t MI5 agents who deal with terrorist and criminals and protect Britain from inside and outside threats, and even from the CIA. A very British centric show with everyone else the bad guys basically.

But the reason I bring it up is because Joe was talking about how he like how the show has killed of a major character every season since it was created. And it does not seem to harm the show in anyway what so ever . And Joe seemed to be pointing to the fact that the show keeps the viewers by knocking of these characters and bring in new ones every season and it what he liked about the show.

Do thing that Joe have decided that Atlantis should go down the same route knock of a main cast member every season and bring in someone else. Spooks done this well and kept it audience even through it a team base show.

Last season ended with several cast members being killed and the season final look a other season will begin with a lost of a other major character.

What do you think, is Joe going ot be taking Atlantis down the same road.

I personally hopes he does as spooks is one of my favorite shows.

So what people think.

vaberella
March 11th, 2007, 05:57 AM
Well I have just been reading Joe blog.

And he was talking about how he likes spooks.

Just in case you do not know what Spooks is, it a BBC show about a team of t MI5 agents who deal with terrorist and criminals and protect Britain from inside and outside threats, and even from the CIA. A very British centric show with everyone else the bad guys basically.

But the reason I bring it up is because Joe was talking about how he like how the show has killed of a major character every season since it was created. And it does not seem to harm the show in anyway what so ever . And Joe seemed to be pointing to the fact that the show keeps the viewers by knocking of these characters and bring in new ones every season and it what he liked about the show.

Do thing that Joe have decided that Atlantis should go down the same route knock of a main cast member every season and bring in someone else. Spooks done this well and kept it audience even through it a team base show.

Last season ended with several cast members being killed and the season final look a other season will begin with a lost of a other major character.

What do you think, is Joe going ot be taking Atlantis down the same road.

I personally hopes he does as spooks is one of my favorite shows.

So what people think.

He's not the only one thinking like that. I haven't watched a lot of Lost, but it knocked out quite a few of major characters, and I'm sure the guys left are just there for flavoring. Just to keep some familiarity.

I heard rumors that half the cast of Heroes is gonna go adios, and I'm like "hope no one got attached." I was watching Hex and the girl they based the show on was killed off, and I'm like 'Can people kill off majors like that?" Apparently so. Main characters are always killed off, some come back, some don't.

Meh, I'm used to this, I live on soaps on my spare time----that's all they do. I have seen charaters decapitated go to Switzerland and come back with a new face and a new body. Or my personal faves include lots of retconning and the kids go from being 8 on Tuesday to 25 with a kid of their on by the end of Wednesday's ep.

Sure one could say, that's soaps, I'm like that's just tv. Sometimes there's that one couple or character you really can't touch for while, but pretty much the entire thing is a free for all and TPTB does what it wants, you're just along for the ride.

I don't think this show is really influencing him in the collective decision making, but it could be a point of reference as to what most shows normally do to keep a show fresh and exciting.

Mitchell82
March 11th, 2007, 09:54 AM
He's not the only one thinking like that. I haven't watched a lot of Lost, but it knocked out quite a few of major characters, and I'm sure the guys left are just there for flavoring. Just to keep some familiarity.

I heard rumors that half the cast of Heroes is gonna go adios, and I'm like "hope no one got attached." I was watching Hex and the girl they based the show on was killed off, and I'm like 'Can people kill off majors like that?" Apparently so. Main characters are always killed off, some come back, some don't.

Meh, I'm used to this, I live on soaps on my spare time----that's all they do. I have seen charaters decapitated go to Switzerland and come back with a new face and a new body. Or my personal faves include lots of retconning and the kids go from being 8 on Tuesday to 25 with a kid of their on by the end of Wednesday's ep.

Sure one could say, that's soaps, I'm like that's just tv. Sometimes there's that one couple or character you really can't touch for while, but pretty much the entire thing is a free for all and TPTB does what it wants, you're just along for the ride.

I don't think this show is really influencing him in the collective decision making, but it could be a point of reference as to what most shows normally do to keep a show fresh and exciting.

If he follows that route the show is done for simply b/c most fans will give up. It'd be a very bad move IMO.

duckedtapedemon
March 11th, 2007, 04:27 PM
It wouldn't be a problem if Atlantis was that kind of show, that focused more on plot than characters.

Unfortunatly, Atlantis without characters is doomed. Even if they are ruining it.

prion
March 11th, 2007, 04:58 PM
Well I have just been reading Joe blog.

And he was talking about how he likes spooks.

Just in case you do not know what Spooks is, it a BBC show about a team of t MI5 agents who deal with terrorist and criminals and protect Britain from inside and outside threats, and even from the CIA. A very British centric show with everyone else the bad guys basically.

But the reason I bring it up is because Joe was talking about how he like how the show has killed of a major character every season since it was created. And it does not seem to harm the show in anyway what so ever . And Joe seemed to be pointing to the fact that the show keeps the viewers by knocking of these characters and bring in new ones every season and it what he liked about the show.

Do thing that Joe have decided that Atlantis should go down the same route knock of a main cast member every season and bring in someone else. Spooks done this well and kept it audience even through it a team base show.

Last season ended with several cast members being killed and the season final look a other season will begin with a lost of a other major character.

What do you think, is Joe going ot be taking Atlantis down the same road.

I personally hopes he does as spooks is one of my favorite shows.

So what people think.

well, if they decide to kill off a charcter every season, won't be much left of the show. SciFi shows have a large fan base devoted to characters, and when you bump off said characters, fans scream. I know that it's very popular on American tv nowadays to just kill characters if the actors want to leave (or you fire them) but it's boring and for me, it makes me want to watch a show less as the incentive to get interested in a character is less as well, if they're going to die, why bother watching?

cshawzye
March 11th, 2007, 07:50 PM
It wouldn't be a problem if Atlantis was that kind of show, that focused more on plot than characters.

Unfortunatly, Atlantis without characters is doomed. Even if they are ruining it.

Yeah I think that's exactly it.

You could look at any of these popular shows that kill off characters left and right and make the argument that it doesn't harm a show to kill of "mains." Problem is, they're often completely different types of show. The problem is not in killing characters, it's in writing for the kind of show you're creating and what your audience expects and who they are.

A show like Atlantis, IMO, is about the characters and their interactions with each other just as much as it's about the adventure they're on. To kill off main characters is to effectively kill off that part of the show which is it's lifeblood. In a show like SGA if you're constantly killing off regulars and not giving your audience time to connect or care for your characteres how do you make them care about what happens to the city? Some big Wraith attack is happening? So what? A couple of regs will die and next week (episode, season, whatever) we'll have a new set of team members to go exploring through pegasus. The only suspense you could have there is which regular cast member is going to die in this epsiode. That kind of thing could get old quick. Not only that, but how do you make your audience connect to the new characters you bring on, if they know that the character is just going to end up dead in a season or a couple of episodes or something? After a while it wouldn't, at least in my opinion, be worth it to try and get into a character you figure is just going to end up off the show anyway.

I definitely understand that in telling a good story sometimes you do have to axe characters, and main ones at that. But I don't think a show like Atlantis should be doing it on a regular basis.

Copernicus
March 11th, 2007, 07:52 PM
I'd only kill off a character on any one of three conditions.


The actor or actress became unavailable
I had a better character I wanted to introduce that could not function with the other character around
The character no longer served a function in the show

What I worry about is the mentality that there needs to be some hard and fast rule about the characters' mortality one way or the other. They don't all need to live, but we don't them dying at a constant rate either. Rules like that only serve to override common sense, and common sense is probably the best way to decide who lives and who dies anyway.

The primary goal has to be the improvement of the show, which should be measured by a combination of factors that include ratings and other considerations. What do I mean by other considerations? Look at Studio 60 on the Sunset Strip. The show has lower ratings than would be expected by a network for a normal show, but its ratings are huge in high income households, which means that its ad buy is huge and it is possible to make money off of it anyway.

The capitalist in me says that if the powers that be focus on making a show that will bring in money for the network, they will more than likely end up with a good show simply because the same factors that bring in money tend to be the factors that improve show quality. I'm sure you can find exceptions to this idea, but it is certainly a good rule of thumb.

kymeric
March 18th, 2007, 11:15 AM
How many ppl left because of RSF? Not alot probably. Everyone loves Ronan now. Im pretty sure this trend will continue for some time to come. They way the show is set up it is stargate ATLANTIS, and not tied to any characters (mcshep would probably be difficult but not impossible to cut)

with the existance of other identical Atlantis ships it is even possible to destory atlantis and eventually relocate to another city or interm outpost.

This show is much more a stargate Universe show than SG1 which was centric to 4 or so specific characters. And i think this will be good for the show overall.

I bet the new spinoff will go back to the main character essentials like sg1. That would make the franchise more flexible.

J_B
March 18th, 2007, 03:21 PM
Love how they seem to like killing off characters & replacing them. Pity MGM don't feel the same way about the same old clique over at 'Bridge Studios'. That would be the signle biggest factor in rejuvanating the Stargate franchise, by putting out new people in charge of it.

It looks like they'll go the same way as the Star Trek franchise. Let Brannon & Braga run everything, then it goes stale & nobody gets interested. They've already done it 50% with SG-1 going. So I can't see how they even think about knocking off characters. If your going to boast about how great it is, then do it with one of the top players of the show.

It's easy to knock off lesser characters. So if they want some kind of respect or credit for doing so, then have the gonads to go big with their killing off. They'd never have the guts to take out O'Neill with SG-1 when RDA was still into the role. They'll never have the guts to kill off Shep or McKay permanently while they either want to continue playing the roles. Next to not be taken out is Ronon. If they did that, then it'll look like they were wrong to take out Ford in the 1st place. So while JM's still up for the role, I think he's fairly safe. The obvious candidate is Teyla. She hasn't done much other than bare flesh at any opportunity. The only thing I think that's keeping her around this long is the fact that she's a minority character. She has potential as well as every other character. So why not focus on writing the characters that you have better then that way you won't need to bring in anybody new...It's kinda simple!

However if cast changes keep it fresh, then why is SG-1 off the air now. If he seriously thinks fans like to see it continually happening to characters they've been watching for years, then bringing in brand new characters that they have to get to know right from the beginning again, then he's sadly mistaken. That's why the original SG-1 team was on the air for so long. Most people tune into shows to watch characters.

It takes time for people to warm to new characters. Atlantis doesn't have time. A few low ratings in S4, could see it being canned very early like they did with SG-1 last season. Not only killing off 1, but reducing another one's role, then bringing in other new characters. Combined with dropping back the Wraith to a background role, while rehashing old SG-1 villans as the new big bads is a very risky thing to do. Ultimately I think they will both combine to cost Atlantis it's lifespan sooner than tptb think. Then they'll be clawing out the DVD movies at £15 or whatever a pop to keep them in a job.

I have a strong feeling that tptb will find this out either in S4 or S5 max when Atlantis goes off the air & they're all out of a job. Maybe then, they'll finally see how (un)cool it is to be killed off after all! :mckay:

Don't fix what ain't broke! They had the perfect cast already. They should have kept Grodin, Chuck, Ford, Bates around. They could have added Ronon in S2 as planned, put Ford out for an arc where he goes awol. Then brought him back before the end of season 2. Written better stories & scenarios for them all. Then fleshed out the Wraith better back to the scary space vampires that they were portrayed as in 'Rising'. The race that supposedly defeated the Lanteans & all their technology. Had they done that, then they'd have been onto a winner!

Ltcolshepjumper
March 18th, 2007, 03:28 PM
SGA isn't that type of show. its centered around the characters.

PG15
March 18th, 2007, 03:59 PM
My God people, they've killed one character. It's not like they're chopping mains left and right.

And before anyone says anything, we don't know how Weir's situation is going to turn out, and I'm not going to trust any rumors at the moment.

sueKay
March 18th, 2007, 04:03 PM
Aren't we forgetting something?

Mr Mallozzi hasn't had too much to do with Atlantis until now...he was working on SG1.

Want to blame someone for SGA? Blame Brad Wright or N. John Smith, both of whom have had more creative involvement. Joe has devoted more time to SG1 in the past 2 years.

expendable_crewman
March 18th, 2007, 04:47 PM
My God people, they've killed one character. It's not like they're chopping mains left and right.

And before anyone says anything, we don't know how Weir's situation is going to turn out, and I'm not going to trust any rumors at the moment.You're right, as far as regular cast goes. On the SGA side, the character of Peter Grodin was recurring. The character of Ford became recurring (role reduced significantly) but wasn't killed off.

I guess I agree here. I'm not ready to ring any big bells.

Spoiler warning for season 3:

Then again, while I can feel sorrow at the loss of Beckett, and acknowledge that I liked him tremendously, I don't feel as though the character's death impacted my interest in the show.
That's me. I'm not holding out the hope that the characters I like will play in first-run eps until I (me, myself) am tired of them, nor do I expect the series itself to run forever. Such is the way of TV shows I watch.

That means I can experience a loss like, say Grodin's (and I liked Grodin, I'll be honest, as much as anyone on the regular cast), and within the context of the show, which is through the eyes of the other characters without it pulling me out of the show.

Like your sig, PG15.

Mister Oragahn
March 18th, 2007, 05:18 PM
Joe... you got things the wrong way.

Knocking characters is not what makes the show good.

It's interesting characters that makes a good show.

Once you learn that, then you'll be able to think about killing characters the audience likes and cares for.

knowles2
March 23rd, 2007, 09:17 PM
SGA isn't that type of show. its centered around the characters.

You obviously have not seen Spooks because the stories are often center around the character, like SGA and are in a team format to, as they work and go save Britain as a team, and yet I bring you back to the central point it have not done spooks any harm whats so ever knocking a character of every season intentional or not. That why I pointed out spooks the show underlying format team goes out to defend the world /Britain from the scum that want to harm us, except is SGA it human eating vampires in spooks its your everyday terrorist or some other plot to topple Great Britain.

The concept and team formats are the same in both shows, instead in one they travel across the universe to do their, spooks it usually more local, in and around London, making them ideal for comparing how the creatures have treated it.

In fact I even stay spooks is even more character orientated than SGA is most of the time.


So just because it does not a hysterical fan base who moans at every time they kill a character does not mean they different type of show completly. and you can still compare them.

Easter Lily
March 23rd, 2007, 11:47 PM
I can understand the killing off of characters in Spooks (a show I think very highly of)... it makes sense because it's a cloak and dagger sort of show with high degree of continuity. People's lives are in constant jeopardy and it makes sense within the context of the subject matter. I can even understand people dying in Atlantis (Grodin, for example) because in those kinds of situation people get hurt.

But I'm totally against killing off people for the sake of ratings or as a kind of plot gimmick. I suppose it's very trendy these days for shows to try their best to shock without really giving heed to how it fits in with the premise.
When Atlantis had story arcs, character deaths made a lot more sense... Letters from Pegasus was a terrific way to deal with that. I liked the build up at the end of S1. The urgency was stated and it increased one's sense of desperation. But in S2 and 3, the show became more episodic and characters dying have become Trek-like which to me feels more obligatory rather than necessary.

I suppose our arguing this is moot anyway. TPTB will get rid of whomever they want to whenever they want to. Hopefully they will start establishing stronger character arcs so that when people "disappear" for some reason or other, it would make much more sense to the audience.

knowles2
March 24th, 2007, 06:29 AM
However if cast changes keep it fresh, then why is SG-1 off the air now



Because scif afre stupid idiots is the reason, they have admitted it do more with production cost of the show, than the actual rating which it out perform most of their other shows without the backing or the advertising they get.

The cast changes is not what cause the cancellation and more the changing of shows it run with and timing and even the rise of the internet and downloading and I also suspected that scifi just wanted these two season to get in the record books, once that happen I always thought it would be canceled, so out of the entire list of reasons it was cancel new characters coming board it probably the lease important,
in fact no advertisment for the show was probably the most important as the only episode to be advertise extensively was the 200th ep and that had extremely good ratings, which crushed BG and every other show on the scifi channel.

huntress
March 24th, 2007, 07:00 AM
Yeah well it is wonderful for him if he wants the show to be like Spooks. I stopped watching after season two because I didn't like the cast changes. I watched the set with Tom Quinn and that's it. Also I agree with Easter Lily who has made some really good points. Spooks is a complety different format and to kill off loved characters in SGA just for the sake of ratings is beyond lame. The TPTB can kill off as many characters as they want to and exchange them but they shouldn't be surprised if that stunt completely backfires.

knowles2
March 25th, 2007, 07:25 AM
Explain to me what the difference between spooks is apart from the over hysterical fans.

And part the genre their is as far as can no other differences.

Oreo
March 25th, 2007, 08:09 AM
Love how they seem to like killing off characters & replacing them. Pity MGM don't feel the same way about the same old clique over at 'Bridge Studios'. That would be the signle biggest factor in rejuvanating the Stargate franchise, by putting out new people in charge of it.

Someone else agrees with me!!!

It's going to be Star Trek all over again because MGM just wants to milk it and doesn't care what goes on with the shows as long as they get DVD sets.

Matt G
March 25th, 2007, 02:21 PM
Explain to me what the difference between spooks is apart from the over hysterical fans.

And part the genre their is as far as can no other differences.

Which show are you talking about concerning hysterical fans?

I've dipped into the Spooks fandom, they take the show 'way' too seriously last I checked - it felt like more of an extension of the current affairs scene than TV chat!

Shep
March 25th, 2007, 04:27 PM
I've dipped into the Spooks fandom, they take the show 'way' too seriously last I checked - it felt like more of an extension of the current affairs scene than TV chat!


that's actually a pretty funny statement given the board you're making it on.;)

PG15
March 25th, 2007, 05:39 PM
Yeah...

Ok, I guess there are no differences between the shows after all. :D

Flyboy
November 21st, 2008, 12:15 PM
I'm sorry, but personally I feel that Spooks characters are given way more depth than the Stargate Atlantis characters, and the show survives despite numerous characters killed off or discharged from the service. So what if Spooks feels more like a current affairs scene? It adds to the drama, and thus makes it better, why is it mandatory for a show to be tongue in cheek if its to be good. Spooks is imo one of the greatest shows ever, and a triumph of writing.

Stargate can only dream of being as good.

knowles2
November 23rd, 2008, 09:36 AM
Thanks for the green. You dug up a really old thread here.

I agree with you on all accounts.
Through I personally think over the last season the writing has improve a lot.
And the kill one other character permanently and brought one back through cloning. As kill two enemies off to.

Just to add I thin SGU might have more potential to be like spooks.

Flyboy
November 24th, 2008, 02:20 AM
SGU? Really? It looks like it's shaping up more like Spooks: Code 9 than Spooks.

I do think S5 has improved but I still think any Stargate post S6 SG1 has a long way to go, in terms of tone and quality of writing before it makes the Spooks level of quality.



EDIT: Hurrah 4000th non-offtopic post!

jenks
November 24th, 2008, 02:39 AM
If SGU is like Spooks them it will be ****ing amazing.