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garhkal
February 23rd, 2007, 04:46 AM
Just for SnGs, could the Asurans assend?

jenks
February 23rd, 2007, 04:58 AM
We don't know.

Prior_of_the_Ori
February 23rd, 2007, 04:58 AM
Unknown. Its never been known for a machine to ascend. So it would be unprecedented... though Niam believed that as long as their aggressive programming was still present then they would never be able to ascend.

IcyNeko
February 23rd, 2007, 07:56 AM
It's spelled ASCEND.

Use the new firefox (www.mozilla.org). It'lll spell check for you.

VSHARMA
February 23rd, 2007, 09:10 AM
^^^^Why does everyone feel necessary to correct other peoples spelling? :mad: ^^^^

IcyNeko
February 23rd, 2007, 12:58 PM
Because a forum is designed to help people communicate ideas, and if you don't respect your fellow forumgoer by spelling correctly, you defeat the entire purpose of a forum because no one UNDERSTANDS YOU.

So stop whining and use that time to get a spell checker.

Daniel Jackson
February 23rd, 2007, 01:20 PM
Just for SnGs, could the Asurans assend?
I don't think so. A human being has three parts: body, mind, and spirit/soul. An Asuran has body and mind, but does he have a spirit/soul? I assume that's the key component in ascending.

IcyNeko
February 23rd, 2007, 01:42 PM
That's the real moral question, though. :) How can we say that they don't have a soul? How can we say that they do?

Niam seemed to be able to not follow the collective and try and help Weir, but was reset by the collective.

But then again, humans can haev that happen to. We call it brainwashing. :)

Daniel Jackson
February 23rd, 2007, 04:54 PM
That's the real moral question, though. :) How can we say that they don't have a soul? How can we say that they do?
I believe in God and that he created the entire galaxy including all life within. Therefore, a biological entity would be a creation of God. A machine would be a creation of man or a fellow machine. That's why I don't think machines have souls. I do believe a machine can be sentient and thus alive, but the tragedy is that it would die with it's body. :(


Niam seemed to be able to not follow the collective and try and help Weir, but was reset by the collective.
When Niam got reset, it was equal (to me) to being killed and replaced with an alternate personality. :(


But then again, humans can haev that happen to. We call it brainwashing. :)
I disagree. Brainwashing is where the mind is conditioned to believe something it would not normally believe. In Niam's case, he was deleted and replaced with Evil Niam. :eek:

garhkal
February 23rd, 2007, 07:18 PM
That's the real moral question, though. :) How can we say that they don't have a soul? How can we say that they do?

Niam seemed to be able to not follow the collective and try and help Weir, but was reset by the collective.

But then again, humans can haev that happen to. We call it brainwashing. :)


Very true, how can we know they dont Heck, how do we know for a fact we DO?

Anonmatel
February 23rd, 2007, 07:31 PM
seriously people... it's spelt Arse-end.

got it now ?

dzineguy84
February 23rd, 2007, 07:36 PM
[COLOR="Blue"]Therefore, a biological entity would be a creation of God. [COLOR]

to be fair to the asurans, they contain a biological component as well as mechanical, unlike the milkyway humanform replicators, which were nothing but nanites. so honestly, they fall under the biological entity requirement that you uphold. ;)

-PITBULL-
February 23rd, 2007, 07:51 PM
Well seeing how they explain that Ascention is nothing more then releasing the energy from the body an letting go , I dont see why they couldnt Ascend ...

The QUESTION is will they Ascend ... Seeing that the Ancients ascended couse they learned to control there anger and learned how to release there Energy ...

P-90_177
February 23rd, 2007, 07:57 PM
I reckon they could. After what mckay said in 'the tao of rodney' I reckon it's possible.

Daniel Jackson
February 23rd, 2007, 08:03 PM
to be fair to the asurans, they contain a biological component as well as mechanical, unlike the milkyway humanform replicators, which were nothing but nanites. so honestly, they fall under the biological entity requirement that you uphold. ;)
I don't care if they are full cyborgs. My point is they were made by man or fellow machine, not God. We are, of coarse, discussing my point of view. It's not so much an issue of weather they are alive or have biological components. It's an issue of weather or not they have a spirit/soul which I feel is critical to ascension.

P-90_177
February 23rd, 2007, 08:24 PM
that's probably true i'm a bit torn personally. i don't like to think that a machine could develop a soul but in this case i think it could be posible. the question is what's the definition of a soul?

IcyNeko
February 23rd, 2007, 09:22 PM
to be fair to the asurans, they contain a biological component as well as mechanical, unlike the milkyway humanform replicators, which were nothing but nanites. so honestly, they fall under the biological entity requirement that you uphold. ;)

No they don't. They're machines on the nanite level, which mimics biological components.

If they had any biological component, Niam would have been unable to be revived. Biological components die in the cold vacuum of space. If that didn't get them, the radiation from the sun would have, since there's no ozone to deflect radiation.

-PITBULL-
February 23rd, 2007, 09:37 PM
I don't care if they are full cyborgs. My point is they were made by man or fellow machine, not God. We are, of coarse, discussing my point of view. It's not so much an issue of weather they are alive or have biological components. It's an issue of weather or not they have a spirit/soul which I feel is critical to ascension.

YOU got a good point in some way ... But at the sametime i got to ask you this ...

Do you belive that ANIMAL'S can go to Heaven ... and if so , do animals like Lions , or any animal that eats or kills another animal goes to hell ??

With that being said , and im not going to get into it about heaven and god , couse this is a Sci-Fi show , not a reality show ... the Asurans made a good point ...

Ascention isnt a form of dieing , rather a form of evolving ... The Ancients also explain that when you Ascend , the Energy from your BODY ... Thats Energy , not the Soul or spirit ... Seeing how todays COMPUTERS and technology can evolve in todays world , Why cant teh Asurans in a Sci-Fi show evolve and Ascend to a higher plane ...????

Artus
February 24th, 2007, 01:54 AM
Well i would say its very possible for the asurans to ascend, in ascending there's no mention of a soul needed, not once have i heard that there's one needed and as replicarter said to Danial, when he said she wouldnt understand cause she was a machine and she replied that so was he just of an inferior make and to an extent that's true and in Tao of Rodney Elizabeth did say to Rodney something like "its not religion" but evolving to a point at which the brain reaches such a state and one can let go...... :cool:

Betelgeuze
February 24th, 2007, 04:30 AM
I don't care if they are full cyborgs. My point is they were made by man or fellow machine, not God. We are, of coarse, discussing my point of view. It's not so much an issue of weather they are alive or have biological components. It's an issue of weather or not they have a spirit/soul which I feel is critical to ascension.

In the Stargate universe humans were created by the Ancients, and are an earlier form of Ancients. By your reasoning the humans in the Stargate universe would not be able to ascend because, like the Asurans they were created by the Ancients who are advanced humans. And the Ancients being the result of evolution, not creation (Before I Sleep) they would not be able to ascend either.

In Tao of Rodney, McKay says that inorder to ascend one would only need to bring their brain into the requierd state. There is no spirit/soul involved in the process.

As humans are able to ascend, albeit with the help of an Ancient, and the Ancients themselves of course ascended and the fact that non-human life forms (Anubis) can ascend, there is imo no reason why the Asurans should not be able to ascend. All they would have to do is get there brain into a similar state that Ancients/humans need to ascend.

wise one
February 24th, 2007, 09:57 AM
yes they can

why you ask???
well oma desala ascended daniel and his abydos mates with their clothes they were wearing so in some crazy idea way they can, if not then the asurans would be kicking themselves saying"a stupid ragg of clothes got to ascend and i didnt!!!!"

jenks
February 24th, 2007, 10:31 AM
Just because they appeared to have clothes on when they were ascended doesn't mean she actually ascended the clothes :rolleyes:

jenks
February 24th, 2007, 10:32 AM
I don't care if they are full cyborgs. My point is they were made by man or fellow machine, not God. We are, of coarse, discussing my point of view. It's not so much an issue of weather they are alive or have biological components. It's an issue of weather or not they have a spirit/soul which I feel is critical to ascension.

What for? Your point of view doesn't apply to the Stargate Universe...

sg1adam
February 24th, 2007, 10:52 AM
Just my 2 pen'th, doesn't the whole SG story line go against what we were taught at school etc... about creation etc... Man being made in his image, blah, blah, blah........

Keeper
February 24th, 2007, 11:15 AM
I don't care if they are full cyborgs. My point is they were made by man or fellow machine, not God. We are, of coarse, discussing my point of view. It's not so much an issue of weather they are alive or have biological components. It's an issue of weather or not they have a spirit/soul which I feel is critical to ascension.

well... one possible argument is to assume that man/ancients/et cetera were made by 'God'.


from this point of view, we can say that the creation of god has created the asuran/replicator.


hence, indirectly, god has created (or is responsible for the creation of) the asurans, since he is the one who created the asuran's creators the way they are.

Team SG-1*save the show*
February 24th, 2007, 01:29 PM
In the Stargate universe humans were created by the Ancients, and are an earlier form of Ancients. By your reasoning the humans in the Stargate universe would not be able to ascend because, like the Asurans they were created by the Ancients who are advanced humans. And the Ancients being the result of evolution, not creation (Before I Sleep) they would not be able to ascend either.

In Tao of Rodney, McKay says that inorder to ascend one would only need to bring their brain into the requierd state. There is no spirit/soul involved in the process.

As humans are able to ascend, albeit with the help of an Ancient, and the Ancients themselves of course ascended and the fact that non-human life forms (Anubis) can ascend, there is imo no reason why the Asurans should not be able to ascend. All they would have to do is get there brain into a similar state that Ancients/humans need to ascend.


this is true. however do the Asurans have a subconscious mind as that is what they would need. We also saw this in SG-1 season five episode 21 'meridan' where daniel Jackson subconsciously talked to oma desala.

jenks
February 24th, 2007, 04:33 PM
Just my 2 pen'th, doesn't the whole SG story line go against what we were taught at school etc... about creation etc... Man being made in his image, blah, blah, blah........

You were taught that in school? Was it a catholic school or something?

wolverine_nl
February 24th, 2007, 04:55 PM
God created man and so a machine cant ascend, you mix fiction with reality!
Ancients created humans in the Stargate universe, therefore, you say that the Ancients are "God" :S ? Very tricky reasoning, but it is what the series implies. And what we were taught at school isnt exact science, we dont know who or what God is, we can only speculate or just believe in it (realitycheck)
But humans can ascend, so the "other" creation of the Ancients, the replicators/assurans, should be able to ascend if they have a certain life energy that needs to be released.

Anubis-
February 24th, 2007, 10:23 PM
I don't think so. A human being has three parts: body, mind, and spirit/soul. An Asuran has body and mind, but does he have a spirit/soul? I assume that's the key component in ascending.

Does they have mind or wise program?

Betelgeuze
February 24th, 2007, 11:02 PM
this is true. however do the Asurans have a subconscious mind as that is what they would need. We also saw this in SG-1 season five episode 21 'meridan' where daniel Jackson subconsciously talked to oma desala.

Good point, it all depends how well they managed to mimick their creators. Another problem might be that they exists within a collective. Ascension appears to be something you have to do alone. it might not be possible to ascend if your mind is linked to other people.

garhkal
February 25th, 2007, 02:00 AM
God created man and so a machine cant ascend, you mix fiction with reality!
Ancients created humans in the Stargate universe, therefore, you say that the Ancients are "God" :S ? Very tricky reasoning, but it is what the series implies. And what we were taught at school isnt exact science, we dont know who or what God is, we can only speculate or just believe in it (realitycheck)
But humans can ascend, so the "other" creation of the Ancients, the replicators/assurans, should be able to ascend if they have a certain life energy that needs to be released.

But since the ancients assended could they then be considerd gods?

jenks
February 25th, 2007, 04:34 AM
No.

wolverine_nl
February 25th, 2007, 05:16 AM
But since the ancients assended could they then be considerd gods?

Then define "God" in the Stargate Universe?
That is THE question that makes the SG-1 series.

IcyNeko
February 25th, 2007, 05:37 AM
False Gods.

Lord Chris
February 25th, 2007, 05:39 AM
they could ascend because of all the nice things they find if you had to choose one person to ascend who would it be
i'd choose McKay

bniblett
February 25th, 2007, 07:08 AM
although we don't really know, I would say there are 2 things possibly holding them back from ascending NATURALLY:


1) All ascended beings (ancient or not) that we know of, have all been an organic life form, not a machine. Don't know if this would make a difference or not, we just don't know.

2) One needs to be pure of spirit to ascend naturally, and I don't think trying to kill all humans in pegasus because their creators like the humans better then the asurans, is all that "pure of spirit".

I know some were focusing on ascending, but we just don't know until they try.

jenks
February 25th, 2007, 07:15 AM
although we don't really know, I would say there are 2 things possibly holding them back from ascending NATURALLY:


1) All ascended beings (ancient or not) that we know of, have all been an organic life form, not a machine. Don't know if this would make a difference or not, we just don't know.

2) One needs to be pure of spirit to ascend naturally, and I don't think trying to kill all humans in pegasus because their creators like the humans better then the asurans, is all that "pure of spirit".

I know some were focusing on ascending, but we just don't know until they try.

Since when?

Betelgeuze
February 25th, 2007, 08:53 AM
They would only need to be "pure of spirit" if an ascended helps them ascend. And even that isn't really necessary, because Anubis managed to trick Oma Desala. In order to ascend they would have to release their burden, and get their brain into the proper state. Being a good person isn't necessary.

wolverine_nl
February 25th, 2007, 09:12 AM
Being pure of spirit, doesnt mean pure good or evil for that matter.:mckay:
there should be a guide to ascension which can be bought on amazon or something :jack_new_anime18:

g.o.d
February 25th, 2007, 09:29 AM
2) One needs to be pure of spirit to ascend naturally, and I don't think trying to kill all humans in pegasus because their creators like the humans better then the asurans, is all that "pure of spirit".



No, you don't have to be a pure spirit.You have to be a pure spirit only if you get any help from the MW Ancients(Oma Desala and others)

garhkal
February 25th, 2007, 05:10 PM
1) All ascended beings (ancient or not) that we know of, have all been an organic life form, not a machine. Don't know if this would make a difference or not, we just don't know.


Did not replicarter say that organics are still machines, but lesser ones?

[quote]Then define "God" in the Stargate Universe?
/quote]

God.. Someone who is higher/supreme in power... To me that closely resembles what the ancients became when they ascended.

SoulReaver
February 27th, 2007, 11:16 AM
That's why I don't think machines have souls.
I do believe a machine can be sentientcontradiction detected http://img.presence-pc.com/forum/images/perso/loupiote.gif

DetriusXii
February 27th, 2007, 07:10 PM
First off, what is a soul and what function does it have that's different than the mind? What are the physical properties of a soul and how do some beings end up having it while others don't? I don't believe it's necessary to adding in a unquantifiable and noninteracting object to our universe. We have something unquantifiable and that's called our human mind, but it interacts with our body through the computational mechanisms of our meat computer, the human brain. We've never discovered a biological process within ourselves whose only explanation can be attributed to the interaction with the soul.

Now relating this to the Stargate universe, the Asurans happen to have a collective consciousness but the same can be argued with telepathy in the Stargate universe and we know telepaths can still ascend. And the Asurans do show individual ethic even if there base code is aggressive, whatever that means. Our base code, our genetic instruction, is to procreate and have sex, although the latter is more likely. But the Catholic Church has been able to recruit people to reject their base programming and join take on vows of celibacy for ~2000 years. More recently, government bodies and NGOs are concerned about populations stripping sustainable resources bare and individuals at other sites I visit have argued that having more than one of your own genetic offspring is unethical as there are many excess children in foster homes going around.

And lastly, ascension has an interaction with the physical, mortal universe in Stargate. So it should be explained by physical laws. The Ancients who couldn't ascend on their own created technology to get their genetics to ascend. I could argue that this would be exactly like creating an interface to the ascended plane and that the Asurans should be capable of creating this interface aswell. Our genetics is a random assortment of atomic elements, and we don't notice a spiritual quality to our elements when looking at the periodic table.

Gravity
February 27th, 2007, 08:09 PM
Remember SGA S1 EP3 (Hide & Seek)

There they found some sort of Power being...

What is the chance that it might have been and experiment on one of the Asurans? We know that the Ancients wanted to hasten their ascend with the wraith knocking on their doorstep...

If I was an Ancient... I would rather do my science test with a Asuran than a fellow Ancient...

I know it is a thumb suck, but that treat was never finished in Atlantis, so it always open for some sort of exploit...:sheppard:

Katiekat
February 28th, 2007, 11:44 PM
Did not replicarter say that organics are still machines, but lesser ones?

[quote]Then define "God" in the Stargate Universe?
/quote]

God.. Someone who is higher/supreme in power... To me that closely resembles what the ancients became when they ascended.Im not sure what you all mean by organics. I don't believe the reps or their counterparts can ever ascend. They do not have souls and are only machines with chips,etc that are run off a program. They were created by non ascending beings. The ancients were superior beings who were smart and had much power. I would believe they could but not the reps. I would think if they did it would have a horrible consiquence. I would not want them as gods.:) :)

Betelgeuze
March 1st, 2007, 12:22 AM
Im not sure what you all mean by organics. I don't believe the reps or their counterparts can ever ascend. They do not have souls and are only machines with chips,etc that are run off a program. They were created by non ascending beings. The ancients were superior beings who were smart and had much power. I would believe they could but not the reps. I would think if they did it would have a horrible consiquence. I would not want them as gods.

Why would they need a soul to ascend? Like another poster said, what is a soul? Ascension seems to be about reaching a certain state of mind, get your brain functions right. I don't think their is any reason that the Asurans couldn't reach a state of mind that corresponds with that of the Ancients.

NATIK
March 1st, 2007, 12:38 AM
Just my 2 pen'th, doesn't the whole SG story line go against what we were taught at school etc... about creation etc... Man being made in his image, blah, blah, blah........

That depends on what kind of school you go to, here in Denmark only fanatical christian schools teach that kind of stuff the public schools have religion teaching something like 1 hour a week and it focus on alternate religions mostly to broaden our horizons.

In Stargate a soul has never been mentioned in connection with ascending, all you need to do to ascend is be at peace with yourself and your surroundings and learn how to turn the matter of your body into pure energy.

Souls are also purely a thing of belief, I doubt someone like Anubis believed in souls when he ascended his religion was the worship of himself as a supreme being.
While you may think that a soul is something everyone have, I for example don't believe in them and view humans as biological machines aswell.

HyperionOmega
March 1st, 2007, 07:30 AM
Of course they can ascend. 1) because there's no reason they can't and 2) TPTB introduced Niam's goal for a reason. As long as Atlantis keeps going for a while, they will almost certainly explore it further, culminating in an ascended Asuran.

On that note, our "souls" are the product of our biology and our environment. It's just extremely complex and capable of consciously influencing itself, which is what makes it special. Humans can control their own selection. Such advanced machines would almost certainly be able to this.

Artus
March 1st, 2007, 11:02 AM
On that note, our "souls" are the product of our biology and our environment. It's just extremely complex and capable of consciously influencing itself, which is what makes it special

Sorry could you explain this:confused: im not sure what you ment thanks:cool:

NATIK
March 1st, 2007, 11:58 PM
What I think he is saying is that what people describe as a "soul" is in fact the product of our sentience, which is our ability to percieve the world around us, think about it and the fact that we are self-aware (which arguably is not needed for sentience but that is another discussion), in which case the Asuran would have "souls" aswell as they are capable of these things just as well as we are.

Since sentience is most definatly required for ascension you can from that definition say that a "soul" is required for it aswell as they are both descriptions of the same, one is just religious while the other is scientific.