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daniejam
February 14th, 2007, 11:40 PM
who would win in a fight 10 asgard vessels vs 10 wraith hives with their crusers and darts?

The Doctor
February 15th, 2007, 01:20 AM
Definitely Asgard. They have superior weapons and shielding. No contest really...

The Great Lord Baal
February 15th, 2007, 02:43 AM
easily asgard superior fire power sheilds and manouverability

wise one
February 15th, 2007, 03:16 AM
with a oniel or the beliskner they could win in minutes

Buba uognarf
February 15th, 2007, 03:24 AM
with a oniel or the beliskner they could win in minutes

no, with an Oneill they could win....with a beliskner or daniel jackson they'd lose neither can take on a hive and 3 cruisers...

daniejam
February 15th, 2007, 05:09 AM
no, with an Oneill they could win....with a beliskner or daniel jackson they'd lose neither can take on a hive and 3 cruisers...

I dont know where you get your information, but none of us actually know just how powerful asguard weapons are, for all we know they could be useless against the wraith.

Buba uognarf
February 15th, 2007, 05:19 AM
I dont know where you get your information, but none of us actually know just how powerful asguard weapons are, for all we know they could be useless against the wraith.

what are you talking about?!? for starters there are people on this thread making claims that outdated weaker asgard ships could take down the Wraith i'm only saying the Asgards most power warship the pinacle of their technology is superior to the Wraith ships which probably aren't even the best they could come up with...

The Asgard weapons are powerful...New Order 6 shots from an Oneill are able to blow a replicator ship to pieces pretty darn strong i think they'd be less effective against the Wraith unless they're weapons are many times stronger which seems unlikely plus hives are about 3-5 times larger than Oneills...

It wouldn't be easy but the Asgard would win imo against the Hives but factoring in 30 cruiser escorts which themelves have roughly half the fire power of a hive and it would be close

belistner
February 15th, 2007, 05:50 AM
no, with an Oneill they could win....with a beliskner or daniel jackson they'd lose neither can take on a hive and 3 cruisers...

where do u come up with this .
the old beliskner class can beat the crap out of a hatak no problem (bar anubis's).the wraith hives dont use shields they wouldn't stand a chance against the beliskner . and darts wouldn't do a lot to stop the asguard weapons like they do against our nukes .
and as far as we know the daniel jackson is the newest model of ship the asguard have made .
even though it's only a science vessel it's pretty safe to say it's up there with the oniell's .
it would probably not be made from all the same stuff as the oniell's but at the least it would have the latest shields and weapons .

anyway the aguard would own the wraith one on one no matter what ship they were using .
plus cruisers dont really count as they tend to run as soon as the hive falls .

HAL
February 15th, 2007, 06:06 AM
didnt the powers that be


Ie the writers of the shows say the Asguard would win 1-1 battles?

Buba uognarf
February 15th, 2007, 06:11 AM
where do u come up with this .
the old beliskner class can beat the crap out of a hatak no problem (bar anubis's).the wraith hives dont use shields they wouldn't stand a chance against the beliskner . and darts wouldn't do a lot to stop the asguard weapons like they do against our nukes .
and as far as we know the daniel jackson is the newest model of ship the asguard have made .
even though it's only a science vessel it's pretty safe to say it's up there with the oniell's .
it would probably not be made from all the same stuff as the oniell's but at the least it would have the latest shields and weapons .

anyway the aguard would own the wraith one on one no matter what ship they were using .
plus cruisers dont really count as they tend to run as soon as the hive falls .

A hiveship is many times larger than all Asgard vessels and has dozens of meters of armor it would own a Beliskner. The Beliskner is outdated it couldn't stop 2 anubis ha'tak i think a Hive would crush 2 Anubis ha'tak pretty easily...

The promethus shields could withstand atleast a minute of fire from Anubis's supership when they were nearly depleted and yet a Beliskner who would have stronger shields can't even beat 2 of Anubis's normal Ha'taks in that time...

The shields on the Beliskner our outdated even compared to Deadalus shields (shown by colour) and the fact that Ha'tak weapons can drain them means that a Hive and 3 cruisers are gonna stomp on it...

The shear size and armor on Hives is gonna mean that the Beliskners weapons aren't going to be as effective as you think especially when said weapons were unable to affect Anubis's shields. Obviously darts are't going to be trying to stop asgard weapon fire lol

even if it could win 1 on 1 the cruiser would finish it off...

The daniel jackson is not a warship so it's not going to be well armed it may be able to take down a hive but not the cruisers as well...

Cruisers do count! the thread includes escorts and as long as they have adequet numbers i don't see them running they only ran from the deadalus because they at that time had no defense against the beaming...

and this thread isn't one on one it's one on four....1 asgard ship vs 1 hive and 3 cruisers + darts

bar the Oneill the Wraith win and even then it's a close call imo

Integrabyte
February 15th, 2007, 06:14 AM
Why are we even thinking to compare the Wraith to races less advanced than the "Ancients"? I mean the Ancients were better one on one but they lost because they were outnumbered. Same thing will happen to the Asgard. The SG teams are the only "inferior" race to beat the Wraith. Why? Because it is a film :P. Nobody finds it funny how we are always inferior to all races yet we always beat up everyone? :cool:


L.E. Buba, we are talking about ships more powerfull than the one Thor had when he was captured. Freyr comes with 3 Asgard vessels with upgraded shields and firepower.

belistner
February 15th, 2007, 07:08 AM
The shields on the Beliskner our outdated even compared to Deadalus shields (shown by colour) and the fact that Ha'tak weapons can drain them means that a Hive and 3 cruisers are gonna stomp on it...


what's the colour of the shield got to do with the strenth of it ?
yes a hatak can drain the beliskner shield but and this is a big but they were no ordinary hataks the shields and weapons were upgraded using ancient knowledge .
the belisnker class weapon as far as i can tell are on par with the tollon ion cannons . ie one or two shots would wipe out a standard hatak .


The shear size and armor on Hives is gonna mean that the Beliskners weapons aren't going to be as effective as you think especially when said weapons were unable to affect Anubis's shields. Obviously darts are't going to be trying to stop asgard weapon fire lol


i'll say again anubis's shields were of ancient design there is no wonder the asguard couldn't defeat them .
and again the hive's dont have shields and from what wev'e seen(the hive) they are not that armoured .
in the hive there were two firing on each other and neither lasted longer than a minute .
so as far as i can see there is no way a hive would be able to drain the shields on a beliskner before it gets destroyed .


Cruisers do count! the thread includes escorts and as long as they have adequet numbers i don't see them running they only ran from the deadalus because they at that time had no defense against the beaming...

i think theyd run when the hive falls but if the cruisers didn't run . with less armour than the hive they wouldn't be able to take more than one shot each even from a beliskner .

Buba uognarf
February 15th, 2007, 07:20 AM
what's the colour of the shield got to do with the strenth of it ?
yes a hatak can drain the beliskner shield but and this is a big but they were no ordinary hataks the shields and weapons were upgraded using ancient knowledge .
the belisnker class weapon as far as i can tell are on par with the tollon ion cannons . ie one or two shots would wipe out a standard hatak .

haven't you noticed how colour seems to determain the strength or the advancement of shields in SG? I've already pointed out that the Ha'tak weapons can't be that strong when you compare them to the time Anubis's flagship was attacking the Promethus, and they were still able to beat the Beliskner....the Hives drain the superior deadalus shields from full power in a few minutes were it takes a minute of fire from Anubis to bring down the shields of an already greatly weakened promethus...


i'll say again anubis's shields were of ancient design there is no wonder the asguard couldn't defeat them .
and again the hive's dont have shields and from what wev'e seen(the hive) they are not that armoured .
in the hive there were two firing on each other and neither lasted longer than a minute .
so as far as i can see there is no way a hive would be able to drain the shields on a beliskner before it gets destroyed .

They weren't of ancient design they were simply enhanced Goa'uld shields and the fact that the other goa'uld could fight a fairly successful campaign against him even with his advanced shields means they can't be that strong...

They are very armored it's just that Wraith weapons are very powerful and with 3 additional cruiser the beliskner is going to go down quickly...


i think theyd run when the hive falls but if the cruisers didn't run . with less armour than the hive they wouldn't be able to take more than one shot each even from a beliskner .

Bear in mind there is more than 1 hive here this is fleet on fleet, Cruisers would circle the Beliskner and pound it will the Hive takes the main fire...a single beliskner can't take on a hive and it's escort proven by the fact it can't take on 2 ha'tak (and i realise they were anubis enhanced ones)

Integrabyte
February 15th, 2007, 09:59 AM
They weren't of ancient design they were simply enhanced Goa'uld shields and the fact that the other goa'uld could fight a fairly successful campaign against him even with his advanced shields means they can't be that strong...

I beg to differ. No Goa'uld technology was advanced enought to eliminate any Asgard ship. The shields, the weapon that destroyed Abydos, and the device that linked Thor to the ship were of Ancient design. You recall Anubis is caught between two planes of existence? He was ascended and he had access to some of the Ancient knowledge. Why do you think he decimated the Goa'uld in such a short period of time?

Coming back to the topic...

We are comparing


Ships of the Beliskner class are powered by a series of four neutrino ion generators, possess two rear thrusters for propulsion, and utilize a forward-mounted deceleration drive to control planetary reentry. The ships possesses a series of energy dampening fields that contain and negate the potential damage caused by internal explosions. Ships of the Beliskner class are equipped with defensive energy shield systems. There is no quick, easy method with which to disable or destroy them. The ships mount a number of high-energy weapon systems though the Asgard typically use a single forward firing cannon. A single Asgard ship is more than a match for several standard Goa'uld Ha'tak motherships, although warships modified with Ancient technology by Anubis have been known to pose a greater threat.

vs.



A Wraith Hive-Ship has a large number of weapon ports stationed across the exterior of the ship. These ports rapidly fire blue energy pulses which are powerful enough to destroy another Hive-Ship after several hits, working in concert with each other, Hive-Ships are able to bring down the Asgard designed shields of the Daedalus in less than a minute. The ship does not appear to have any point defence weapons to fight off smaller ships such as F302s. However the Wraith Dart has been shown to defend the hive from incoming fire.


Basically we are comparing apples with oranges. As soon as we compare an upgraded Asgard vessel with both the Ancient technology upgraded Goa'uld Vessel and a Wraith Hive ship things will change. Proof? Anubis runs like a coward when Freyr comes with 3 O'Neill ships...



The O'Neill class is later mass-produced and serves as the main warship of the Asgard, replacing the Beliskner-class cruiser. Three of them are used to scare away Anubis when he threatens to kill SG-1 as well as the Asgard scientist Heimdall. Thor came in an O'Neill ship to ask SG-1's help to defeat the Replicators. When the Replicators try to attack the new Asgard homeworld Orilla, the Asgard dispatch six O'Neill-class ship to destroy the arriving Replicator ship. The six ships are able to destroy the Replicator ship when it exits hyperspace but they can't stop the Replicator blocks from raining down onto the planet.

The O'Neill class has better shields than the Daedalus. We need to take in consideration that even though the asgard were our friends they were reluctant to share technology. I highly doubt they gave us their best shields and their best intergalactic hyperdrive.

The Daedalus is not as fragile as it seems. It stood in front of the sun with a ZPM powering its shields and saved the whole Lantea planet. I think that was more than any Wraith Hive Ship can do. Imagine a fully working Aurora ship with a ZPM powering its shields or the O'Neill class ship with a ZPM powering its shields. That would kneel Wraith.

We need to be patient. Sg1 started like this too against the Goa'uld. They were "out of date" but slowly came into play. In S4 and S5 we will see Hives destroyed due to new weapons or maybe asgard intervention.

Mate this thread is a waste of time, because at the end of the day both Asgard, O'Neill class, and Ancient ships, Aurora, Orion, can take a Hive down one on one. Wraith are aware of this that is why they never attack anything ancient related without bring minimum 3 hives.

Ouroboros
February 15th, 2007, 10:32 AM
10 Wraith hives with cruisers and Darts?

If we take 3 as the average number of cruisers to escort a hive that's 40 Wraith capships vs only 10 Asguard ones.

The Asguard have a tech advantage but not one big enough to overcome 4 on one odds, and that's not even counting the darts. The shorter grey guys die, and probably pretty quickly to.

VSHARMA
February 15th, 2007, 10:55 AM
Definitely I think the Wraith will win.

The Asgard have more powerful weapons, But I have never seen ‘quick fire’ weaponry coming from a Asgard Mothership.

Daedalus classes can hold off darts for one reason only. Rail Guns. Missiles won’t do much to hundreds of darts approaching from a hive (never mind 10)

Asgard ships will only be able to take out Darts one energy blast at a time. And as far as I know Asgard energy blasts take they time. While the Asgard as fighting off the Darts, the Hive will be doing Major damage to the Shields. (Or other way round)

Not forgetting the size of a Wraith Hive, fair enough they have no shields, but judging from the size, the Hives armour must be great. (Note from taking a direct make IX nuke)

All that I say is that it’s session 4 now . We need to see an Asgard ship in the PG. Yeah Yeah I know the Asgard as at War with the Replicators and still fighting. But we're at war with the Ori, the Asurans, and the Lucian Alliance.

My point.................................No point.

Boxytheboxed
February 15th, 2007, 11:59 AM
The Asgard would win hands odwn. A couple hits fom an Oneill's energy wearon would put a hole through the hives, and they would lose air, and be sucked into space. 1 energy shot from a Oneill would distroy a cruiser, no problem

Ripple in Space
February 16th, 2007, 11:13 AM
A single O'Neill-class ship would easily take out a small Wraith fleet; 1 Hiveship, 3 Cruiser, and Hundreds of Darts. As for the Darts, I'm sure that the Asgard have some sort of secondary weapon for point defense. The Asgard have been at odds w/ the Gould for a long time, I'm sure they took Death Gliders into account when developing their ships. Even if they don't have "rapid-fire lasers" we know that the Asgard modified their beaming tech to be used as a weapon. This would be more than sufficient to destroy fleets of darts, just beam off chunks of their hulls. For that matter they could beam off chunks of the Wraith Hive hull too.

It would be a slaughter, Asgard all the way. The problem is that the Wraith have numbers on their side and they can "grow" fleets of ships. The Asgard have a finite amount of people, and they're 1st rebuilding their empire. If the entire might of the Wraith fleet were to invade Ida, I think the Asgard would lose.

Jimbo-DR
February 16th, 2007, 07:35 PM
A single O'Neill-class ship would easily take out a small Wraith fleet; 1 Hiveship, 3 Cruiser, and Hundreds of Darts. As for the Darts, I'm sure that the Asgard have some sort of secondary weapon for point defense. The Asgard have been at odds w/ the Gould for a long time, I'm sure they took Death Gliders into account when developing their ships. Even if they don't have "rapid-fire lasers" we know that the Asgard modified their beaming tech to be used as a weapon. This would be more than sufficient to destroy fleets of darts, just beam off chunks of their hulls. For that matter they could beam off chunks of the Wraith Hive hull too.

It would be a slaughter, Asgard all the way. The problem is that the Wraith have numbers on their side and they can "grow" fleets of ships. The Asgard have a finite amount of people, and they're 1st rebuilding their empire. If the entire might of the Wraith fleet were to invade Ida, I think the Asgard would lose.

i agree, but if the Wraith could get to Ida, I still the Asgard would win. We've never seen anybody but the Replicators attempt to attack an Asgard planet, and I'm assuming that they have pretty big and powerful defenses around there worlds at this point.

Atlantean Engineer
February 16th, 2007, 08:35 PM
Asgard should win with even numbers of Asgard warships and Wraith hives (and their fleet of associated cruisers). I would love to see such a battle. Due to the size advantage, the Asgard will most likely work together in order to swarm a few hives at a time.

The problem is that in a full pitched battle between the races, the Asgard will be outnumbered greatly and since the Ancients weren't able to fight them off, I doubt the Asgard would be able to either.

monkey_man132
February 16th, 2007, 09:01 PM
If i could throw my two cents in...

The Asgard would most likely win.As seen when they destroyed that replicator ship they do have a fast rate of fire and their ships are plenty bigger than the 304 so size might not be a issue vs wraith.O'Neill class ships have better energy weapons than hive and the Asgard ships will be difficult to incapacitate wile wraith ships will be dead quick.You also have to consider that even though the 304s have Asgard shields the power output on the Asgard's more powerful power generators make them way stronger than the 304.Its like when you power a shield with a ZPM, because u have more power the shield is stronger and lasts longer.I don't think the Asgard would lose one ship.

Ouroboros
February 16th, 2007, 10:15 PM
Just about everyone in this thread is claiming that Asguard ships will blow up Wraith cruisers in one shot or that they have superior firepower or this and that.

Is there anything that supports that other than the Asguard ships being shinier and smoother and thus "more advanced".

All I've ever seen from Asguard ships is one slow moving fireball a second on a good day, from a few thousand feet away, and while both ships were nearly or completely stationary.

Not exactly awe inspiring performance when measured against Wraith firepower feats like draining a ZPM boosted shield in under a week with that fleet and the shots making explosions visible from orbit in misbegotten.

The Asguard have some good stuff. I'm not disputing that they're an advanced race with some very impressive technology. I do think they have a tendancy to get wanked out a bit around here though, often without anything in the way of support other than "they're the Asguard, they're super advanced, of course they win!".

They're also a peaceful race of scientists who promote peaceful relations and have trouble conceptualizing weaponry as simple as slug throwers. Is it really that unreasonable to think that their weapons technology might lag a bit behind given that they're not exactly a race of murderous warmongers.

So far we've seen them beat on Goa'uld Ha'taks (the SGverse equivalant of the Ford Pinto when it comes to warships) and one replicator ship that got caught coming out of hyperspace with no shields.

Londo Molari
February 16th, 2007, 10:27 PM
Asgard should win.
- They have shields, the Wraith do not. Daedalus shield seems to be able to stand up to Wraith hiveship fire, so the Asgard's own shields can be expected to be even superior.
- 2 Nuclear weapons from the Daedalus disabled a hive ship, where-as the naquida enhanced nukes at the end of season 1 did not penetrate Goa'uld shields. Asgard weapon can easily overwhelm Goa'uld shields. So the Asgard energy weapons should be stronger than Earth's nuclear missiles, and they are too fast to be intercepted by darts.

However it is possible that the Asgard's weapons are all designed with shield-draining in mind, and may not be as effective against a shield-less Wraith hive... but I find that unlikely.

Atlantean Engineer
February 16th, 2007, 10:52 PM
Is there anything that supports that other than the Asguard ships being shinier and smoother and thus "more advanced".

All I've ever seen from Asguard ships is one slow moving fireball a second on a good day, from a few thousand feet away, and while both ships were nearly or completely stationary.

Not exactly awe inspiring performance when measured against Wraith firepower feats like draining a ZPM boosted shield in under a week with that fleet and the shots making explosions visible from orbit in misbegotten.

The Asguard have some good stuff. I'm not disputing that they're an advanced race with some very impressive technology. I do think they have a tendancy to get wanked out a bit around here though, often without anything in the way of support other than "they're the Asguard, they're super advanced, of course they win!".

I'm not sure which Asgard battles you're referring to, but that Asgard science vessel moved pretty well in the battle against the Ori and held out much better than Earth and Jaffa/Lucian Alliance vessels. They might've moved slow against Goa'uld ships because of arrogance, but if needed, they seem to be capable of putting up a good fight. Anubis, even with his ascended knowledge enchanced ship was a afraid of a few Asgard battleships.

The difficulty of pitting Asgard vs. Wraith is that they're in two different galaxies. The only link between them for comparison are Earth vessels. From various episodes of Atlantis, it seems plausible that with a ZPM, even the downgraded Asgard shields on the Daedelus could withstand quite a bit from a hive ship. From my judgement, a few O'Neil class Asgard ships are probably much more powerful than a BC-304 with a ZPM. The logic is circular and not fool proof. It could very well be like rock-paper-scissors. Daedy with ZPM matches/beats Hive, O'Neil class pwns Daedy with ZPM . . . doesn't mean that O'Neil pwns Hive. But, in most cases in the real world, you don't get a three way like that. Power is power and simply put, the Asgard have more oomph in their ships.


They're also a peaceful race of scientists who promote peaceful relations and have trouble conceptualizing weaponry as simple as slug throwers. Is it really that unreasonable to think that their weapons technology might lag a bit behind given that they're not exactly a race of murderous warmongers.

So far we've seen them beat on Goa'uld Ha'taks (the SGverse equivalant of the Ford Pinto when it comes to warships) and one replicator ship that got caught coming out of hyperspace with no shields.

Peaceful eh? They've give the Goa'uld pretty good thumpings and have fought replicators constantly. I think that gives them quite a bit of experience and most likely forces them to not only focus on technology but battle tactics.

You can call Goa'uld motherships whatever you want, but they were pretty scary for over half the series. I think much of that had to do with the manpower that the Goa'uld could command on their motherships. Currently the Lucian Alliance and Jaffa ships are pretty pathetic because most Jaffa probably want to sit on their planets and enjoy being free of false gods. Fewer of them are willing to fight, so their ability deteriorates. The same can be seen with the US military.

Ouroboros
February 17th, 2007, 01:02 AM
I'm not sure which Asgard battles you're referring to, but that Asgard science vessel moved pretty well in the battle against the Ori and held out much better than Earth and Jaffa/Lucian Alliance vessels. They might've moved slow against Goa'uld ships because of arrogance, but if needed, they seem to be capable of putting up a good fight. Anubis, even with his ascended knowledge enchanced ship was a afraid of a few Asgard battleships.

Moving quickly doesn't mean much, and the warship they sent to the supergate battle seems to have got its ass kicked just like everything else there did.


The difficulty of pitting Asgard vs. Wraith is that they're in two different galaxies. The only link between them for comparison are Earth vessels. From various episodes of Atlantis, it seems plausible that with a ZPM, even the downgraded Asgard shields on the Daedelus could withstand quite a bit from a hive ship. From my judgement, a few O'Neil class Asgard ships are probably much more powerful than a BC-304 with a ZPM. The logic is circular and not fool proof. It could very well be like rock-paper-scissors. Daedy with ZPM matches/beats Hive, O'Neil class pwns Daedy with ZPM . . . doesn't mean that O'Neil pwns Hive. But, in most cases in the real world, you don't get a three way like that. Power is power and simply put, the Asgard have more oomph in their ships.

I'd agree that the Asguard ships will have fantastic shielding. They'll also be much bigger targets than a 304. What I'm disputing is claims about how the Asguard will blow up a hive with every bolt and such. I've never seen anything from them that would suggest that they actually have weapons that powerful on their ships. Hives can take dozens of hits from other hives and their weapons are very powerful, as shown in episodes like misbegotten.


Peaceful eh? They've give the Goa'uld pretty good thumpings and have fought replicators constantly. I think that gives them quite a bit of experience and most likely forces them to not only focus on technology but battle tactics.

I think we both know that they hardly need to do anything more than show up to defeat the Goa'uld.

As for the replicators. They lost their entire galaxy spanning civilization to the replicators. That's not exactly a ringing endorsment of their military competence.


You can call Goa'uld motherships whatever you want, but they were pretty scary for over half the series. I think much of that had to do with the manpower that the Goa'uld could command on their motherships. Currently the Lucian Alliance and Jaffa ships are pretty pathetic because most Jaffa probably want to sit on their planets and enjoy being free of false gods. Fewer of them are willing to fight, so their ability deteriorates. The same can be seen with the US military.


Ha'taks were scary in the begining but lately they've been more like level 1 enemies in a video game where all the heroes have moved up to level 50 and are used to fighting level 50 enemies. That's to say when you see them now they seem more like cannon fodder or annoyances than threats. The universe has opened up and shown us that there are things out there far worse than the Goa'uld Earth once feared.

ACharmedAsgard
February 17th, 2007, 06:02 AM
I would have to say Asgard would win. Most battles the Asgard have been in they have had one or two ships (because of the lack of availablity) and have usually managed to win.

I would say that because of there superior shields and the weapons (which would realistically would deafeat a hive after a few shots not one) The Asgard would win. I think that now they have defeated the replicaters that as we know are a far worse and a more powerful enemy then the Wraith (Thus why the expidition team are more concerned about them), the experience they gained will allow them to fight much better.

When the Deady first fought it managed to destroy 2 out of 12 hive ships before it had to leave. If a less advanced ship like the deady can do that then I think 10 O'Neil Class ships would win

Atlantean Engineer
February 17th, 2007, 08:42 AM
As for the replicators. They lost their entire galaxy spanning civilization to the replicators. That's not exactly a ringing endorsment of their military competence.

Germany lost the second World War, the USSR lost the Cold War, but I wouldn't consider them weak adversaries for the Allied powers or the US. You can't judge the strength of combatants just by the outcome of the war. Seriously, who would you pick in a battle? Wratih or Replicators? I think hands down the Replicators would win. Through manipulation of their powerful force fields, time dilation devices, and other crazy technologically challenging methods, the Asgard managed to hold off the Replicators. The same couldn't be said for any other race except the Ancients and possibly the Ori.