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Daniel Jackson
February 8th, 2007, 04:08 PM
This thread contains spoilers for the end of 3-20 "First Strike."

I haven't seen "First Strike," but I am aware of how the episode ended in relation to the city and Dr. Weir, so don't spoil the rest of the episode for me. :p

We know Tapping is signed on to Season 4 for a total of 14 episodes, which is almost equal to being there as a full time regular. We also know that Torri Higginson has been reduced from a series regular to a recurring guest star, but the number of episodes is unkown.

I'm hoping Weir will remain in charge of Atlantis, and that the actress's demotion to recurring guest star simply means Weir won't be in ever single episode. I'd be cool with this so long as it's something like 10-15 episodes.

However, I feel that there is a very strong chance that Weir will either step down, be severely injured and thus incapable of leading Atlantis, or be killed off. This would allow Sheppard to take over the Atlantis Expedition or it could allow Carter to take over the expedition. Think about it... Atlantis, the technological marvel, lead by Carter. It just makes sense. Carter's brains would be applied to the city while McKay's brains are applied in the field. Why else would Carter spend so much time in Atlantis? It just makes sense.

If this is the case, do you think this'll be good or bad for the show? If you don't think Carter will replace Weir, tell us why!

langdonboom
February 8th, 2007, 04:11 PM
Personally, I don't think it seems NECCESARY to do this, but I wouldn't be devestated. I really like the character of Weir, and I have seen First Strike in which some developments occur that make me see your theory as highly plausible.

It just didn't seem like the show was crying out for it, but hey, bringing in an established SG-mythology character is not a terrible thing - to me it was much more a stretch of the imagination after the events of Lost City that all of SG-1 wouldn't be working in Atlantis for a while!

So, here I am, non comittal but hoping for it to be handled well.

P-90_177
February 8th, 2007, 04:12 PM
why would carter replace weir? she's the same rank as sheppard and it's been said that she will command her own ship. people seem to keep thinking that weir may be killed off but there's no evidence to support that.

P-90_177
February 8th, 2007, 04:16 PM
Personally, I don't think it seems NECCESARY to do this, but I wouldn't be devestated. I really like the character of Weir, and I have seen First Strike in which some developments occur that make me see your theory as highly plausible.

It just didn't seem like the show was crying out for it, but hey, bringing in an established SG-mythology character is not a terrible thing - to me it was much more a stretch of the imagination after the events of Lost City that all of SG-1 wouldn't be working in Atlantis for a while!

So, here I am, non comittal but hoping for it to be handled well.

in a realistic environment after the ori are gone, all of SG-1 would head over to atlantis due the huge resource they are. that's why i quite like the idea of carter coming over (i would have prefered daniel but fair enough)

Daniel Jackson
February 8th, 2007, 04:21 PM
why would carter replace weir?
If Weir leaves the show, I forsee Sheppard, Carter, or some new guy taking command.


she's the same rank as sheppard
She could always get a promotion. I know she just got a promotion three years ago, but the woman's a genious! Besides, I am sure that are a few people in the military who have moved up in the chain of command quite fast.


and it's been said that she will command her own ship.
No, it has not. It's been said she will come in her own ship. That could simply mean she's commanding the ship in her first episode, but that could quickly lead to a command transfer. It could also mean that Carter has a personal ship, like a Puddle Jumper for example.


people seem to keep thinking that weir may be killed off but there's no evidence to support that.
"First Strike" is evidence to suppot the speculation. Obviously she doesn't die in the season premiere, because she'll be in more than one episode. However, she could always die of her injuries, be killed in an explosion later on, or sacrifice herself to save the city.

P-90_177
February 8th, 2007, 04:28 PM
I severly doubt it.
All it means to me is that the team will be going off world more often for the whole episode so there less need for weir.

True!Ancient
February 8th, 2007, 04:44 PM
Well carter might be the commander for a season with wier as her advisor then after her contract has run out wier takes over becouse carter says she does a good job,she couldnt do it bla bla back to normal

Quinn Mallory
February 8th, 2007, 04:48 PM
There is no point to kill Weir. I can see a story arc involving the power struggle between Weir and the military that leads to Carter being in command temporarily. That would make some interesting stories.

P-90_177
February 8th, 2007, 04:55 PM
Sams and weir are too nice to let there be a power struggle. A power struggle between weir and sheppard would be cool though. If anything Carter would be weirs advisor but again I doubt that'll be how it'll go.

Hairy_Little_Muffin
February 8th, 2007, 05:38 PM
Personally I'd like to see Dr. Jackson in charge of Atlantis. ;)

Bragi
February 8th, 2007, 05:43 PM
The episode is 3-20. . . . . . but that's neither here, nor there.

P-90_177
February 8th, 2007, 06:22 PM
Personally I'd like to see Dr. Jackson in charge of Atlantis. ;)

if weir ever had to leave i'd love for that to happen. Daniel is the next best qualified person to lead the expedition.

Killdeer
February 8th, 2007, 07:54 PM
This thread contains spoilers for the end of 4-20 "First Strike."

I feel that there is a very strong chance that Weir will either step down, be severely injured and thus incapable of leading Atlantis, or be killed off. This would allow Sheppard to take over the Atlantis Expedition or it could allow Carter to take over the expedition. Think about it... Atlantis, the technological marvel, lead by Carter. It just makes sense. Carter's brains would be applied to the city while McKay's brains are applied in the field. Why else would Carter spend so much time in Atlantis? It just makes sense.

If this is the case, do you think this'll be good or bad for the show? If you don't think Carter will replace Weir, tell us why!

Wow-I know I'm stepping in dangerous waters here, since I'm a newbie and this is a hotly debated topic on this board. Hopefully I won't get in over my head.

After watching First Strike, I'm really not sure which way they're going to go, but I think one of the two will end up leading (Sheppard or Carter). There were foreshadowings in the episode that could be interpreted either way. I'm pretty sure that Elizabeth will be in less than half of the episodes. No, don't ask me where I get that idea from. It's just my own feeling based on the fact that both Hammond and Landry on SG-1 retained a place in the credits, and I don't think Weir would lose that if she was only going to take a similar background role. I'd be happy to be proven wrong though.

I can't tell where they're taking the show next year, and I think that will have a lot of bearing on who commands. If the situation they find themselves in at the end of the season is only temporary, and they return to the status quo within two or three episodes, then, yeah, I could see Carter taking command. If in fact this was a way of launching the show in a whole new direction, then I think (and personally hope) that Sheppard will command.

This again is just my opinion, but I hope they go with the latter option, and not just because of the command issue. I think it opens up a lot of exciting possibilities.

Trying to stay on topic...Could Carter replace Weir? It's possible. Would it be a good thing? That's up for debate, obviously, depending on how you feel about the Carter character. Personally, I don't want to see Carter replacing Weir, and I don't think it would be good for the show. I'm ok with her in Atlantis otherwise, but I'd rather not have her in command. This is only my opinion-I'm not trying to criticize others who disagree. As to why I feel that way.... well, I'll just stick with saying it's just my opinion. The issue of Carter in command (whether of SG-1 or Atlantis) has come up before on this board while I was still an anonymous lurker, and been long and bitterly debated. I'm getting braver, but I'm still not brave enough to stick my neck on that chopping block. :) And so, signing off now...feeling some small measure of fear for daring to post here.... (Squawk!)

TheReturnOfTheLantian
February 8th, 2007, 08:04 PM
If Carter lead's atlantis this means sheppard might loose his militry responsabillitys i would hate to think that carter would be taking over, they should stay where they are, and how they gonna wield this around the 2movies because she get's trapped on a ship and lives out 50years of her life

ussrelativity
February 8th, 2007, 08:19 PM
Could she replace Weir? Not unless she suddenly learns five languages, and then adds Ancient to that. And not unless she has some secret history as a diplomat/negotiator we don't know about.


I wonder if we'll ever get to see Weir use her language skills again. Not since "Lost City, Part I" have we seen her speak another language.

Daniel Jackson
February 8th, 2007, 09:05 PM
Could she replace Weir? Not unless she suddenly learns five languages, and then adds Ancient to that. And not unless she has some secret history as a diplomat/negotiator we don't know about.
Why would Carter need to know five languages and be a diplomat/negotiator? That's Weir's background, not the requirements for leading Atlantis. :rolleyes: Ideally, Daniel would be the suitable replacement for Weir, but I'm guessing Shanks doesn't want to cross over, so Carter is the next best choice.


Carter could replace Shep because of her military background or McKay because of her scientific background, but TPTB wouldn't dare mess with their golden boys. That's why she's muscling in on Weir's position, no matter how unqualified she is for the job.
Carter's already played the brainiac scientist on SG-1 for ten years and doubled as team leader in Seasons 8-10. I know Cam is technically team leader in Seasons 9-10, but it really depends on the episode since Cam and Sam are the same rank. One thing we haven't seen Carter do is command a space ship or run a large base of opperations like Stargate Command or Atlantis. Obviously, she can't replace Sheppard, because he is the star of the show. If she could do that, she would have replaced RDA on SG-1 as star of the show instead of Mitchell being brought in. McKay is clearly the production crew's favorite character on SG:A, so he's not going anywhere. Naturally, the only character for Carter to replace is Weir. It just makes sense to me.

Now, we don't know Carter will replace Weir. It's just an educated guess.

Ravroz
February 8th, 2007, 09:17 PM
Well, we do know that Carter will be in quite a number of episodes in the coming season. I had just assumed that they would involve her fighting with McKay. It also suggests that Atlantis gets back into contact with Earth at some point. Although, it would also be pretty cool if she were to replace Weir. That would totally change things, possibly for the better.....

Daniel Jackson
February 8th, 2007, 09:25 PM
I'm sure Atlantis will be rescued after a few episodes. We've already had two lost in space shows recently, Star Trek: Voyager and Battlestar Galactica (the remake) which is still on and airs on the same network as SG:A. I really don't see SG:A keeping Atlantis lost in deep space for more than a few episodes. It's got a been there, done that feel to it. Besides, it's pretty similar to SG-1's Season 4 finale where the ship was lost in deep space with a main character believed to be dead. That was resolved in the very next episode, and without a reboot.
Aophis actually died for good!
I think this episode, if nothing else, will result in the city having a new leader weather it be Sheppard, Carter, or some new guy.

Devmen
February 8th, 2007, 09:27 PM
After watching first strike i was going crazy with the vagueness, but thats usual

i dont want carter to take over atlantis and replace weir because atlantis is civilian based dangit! carters gots a rank and all and would make the place into another sgc. Over my dead body!

Daniel Jackson
February 8th, 2007, 09:32 PM
Carter's not some gung-ho soldier. I think she'd do as well as Weir.

Peoples_General
February 8th, 2007, 09:39 PM
It also makes sense IF that scenario your describing of how Carter replaces Weir happens. I mean think about...

Carter is:
-scientist... intelligent woman and with techno-babble as good as McKay's :D
-military... tough girl that can shoot guns and kick arse
-spokesperson to the public much like Weir (many times always speaking with the press or some audience in SG1)

She's by far the most well rounded character in terms of talents and abilities.

travis
February 8th, 2007, 09:49 PM
Can Carter replace Weir? off course she can as she is very capable and experience but frankly I don't want her too. Why because we already seen her character in SG1 for 10 years now. I will always relate Atlantis with Weir anyway so if they choose to have another leader by all means that their descision/power but I will not like. Though I'm sure I'll adjust to the change but will truly never be satisfied. I guess I just adore Weir's character so much that any replacement is just not good enough no matter how good or perfect they might be.
LOL to think that I feel this way over a fictional character is a bit funny but I guess I'm just a simple fan who does not want his fav character to be recurring or erased.

Mitchell82
February 8th, 2007, 11:11 PM
I severly doubt it.
All it means to me is that the team will be going off world more often for the whole episode so there less need for weir.

I agree. I think some are going overboard thinking Weir is gone for good.

travis
February 9th, 2007, 12:49 AM
Well, when the character was set up, obviously those were the qualities they wanted in their leader. It sets her apart from the other characters. Carter is just another military person like Lorne or Shep, or just another scientist like McKay or Zelenka. Weir is one of the few characters that stands out as having an individual set of skills that you don't see in the other characters on th show.

nice post simple and to the point

jannagalaxy
February 9th, 2007, 12:57 AM
The thing I don't get is that SG1 wasn't messed with until later in to the show.....years and years later. But Atlantis is still young and they've messed with it since season 1.

StratoBOB
February 9th, 2007, 01:02 AM
I hope Sam will notreplace Weir in the charge because this will mean that Atlantis will totaly militarysed and then all the crew must follow the military decision from the SGC and e.t.c. I remember one interview with Brad Wright saying that they allways wanted to have a non military commander in the SGC, so this is the reason they used Weir as a SGC commander and later moved her in SGA.
I also thing that Carter will came in Atlantis to help fixing the problem with the power and landing the city in other destination.

huntress
February 9th, 2007, 01:16 AM
Honest answer to that question? I.Don't.Care.Anymore.

Really

I think it is very possible that Carter is there to replace Liz. 14 episodes is more then half of all the episodes that are in a season. She is in fact a regular, so yeah chances are that either Carter replaces Lizzy or John takes the job from Liz and Carter helps him.....but like I said before - I don't care. I am not going to watch season four :shrugs:

SGFerrit
February 9th, 2007, 02:33 AM
As they told PM when they told him they were killing off his character, they want to "shake things up" to boost ratings. How they think that bringing a character in from a show that was cancelled due to a lack of ratings will solve the problem is beyond me. It's just going to turn off existing Atlantis fans who don't watch SG1. The number of Atlantis fans who don't watch SG1, or even hate SG1 would be around 50 percent. That's the number they risk seriously pissing off with this move.

See it's not just some show that got cancelled from lack of ratings (Which were practically the same as the ratings of Atlantis anyway) it is Atlantis' mother show. It is one big franchise. There would be no Atlantis if it wasn't for SG-1, in terms of the franchise and the actual story. The TPTB aren't going to stop the crossover of a character from the mothershow because some Atlantis characters don't like SG-1. Sorry but that's the way it is.

SGFerrit
February 9th, 2007, 02:35 AM
Given the last interview with Paul McGillion and the fact that he and Torri were the ONLY ones who said that the futures of some of the character were in doubt, I think it's reasonable to react the way many have.

Better to be save than sorry, and if Torri's being screwed out of a job as Paul was as a stunt to make a quick grab at ratings, then I think she'd like to know that people support her, instead of thinking that they couldn't give a stuff.

Torri isn't out of a job though. She still has her job.

SGFerrit
February 9th, 2007, 02:38 AM
Well, when the character was set up, obviously those were the qualities they wanted in their leader. It sets her apart from the other characters. Carter is just another military person like Lorne or Shep, or just another scientist like McKay or Zelenka.

And you said it right there. Carter is military, and scientist. There are very few characters other than her that are both in the SG universe. Plus(as has been said), like Weir she is a good spokesperson to the public.

I don't want Sam to replace Weir. But isn't definate. Infact there has been no real proof to show it will happen. But some people, for some reason, seem to think it is definate.

Vespasianus
February 9th, 2007, 05:01 AM
After Ellis's comment on leadership in First Strike, I believe that Sheppard will take over from Weir, not Carter.

FallenAngelII
February 9th, 2007, 05:05 AM
No, because it would be stupid.

"Let's kill off a regular, demote another, bring in two new characters (well, Sam's an old one, but not from the same show. She's only guest starred on the show once)"

That's bad enough already. Tons of changes, a lot of new directions. Now let's randomly make Sam the head of Atlantis?!

For one thing, why?! What makes her so capable of leading the Atlantis expedition? She's a soldier and a scientist. What possible training does she have to lead the expedition?

For another: Fanboyism, much? "We love Sam so much we're gonna force her onto the show, into the light and make her one of the most important characters on the show! Because we like her!".

prion
February 9th, 2007, 05:24 AM
After Ellis's comment on leadership in First Strike, I believe that Sheppard will take over from Weir, not Carter.

I think Shep's going to have leadership dumped on him in the first few episodes until Weir is back on her feet (or out of her coma) but I don't see him as overall leader as then he wouldn't be able to go out on field trips ;)

But Carter as leader? No, don't see her as having the ability. She's a scientist, a soldier, but not a leader. Of course, the writers do whatever they want and damn the logic so it wouldn't surprise me if they thought of doing that. Hope they don't.

huntress
February 9th, 2007, 05:26 AM
Torri isn't out of a job though. She still has her job.

Barely and only as a guest star. Look how that worked out for Rainbow Sun Francks

prion
February 9th, 2007, 05:26 AM
Torri isn't out of a job though. She still has her job.

If Torri is no longer a regular on the show, but recurring (Brad Wright or RCC said she was going to be recurring) that means a step down in pay, definitely.

metabog
February 9th, 2007, 05:43 AM
OMG i never thought of it that way, carter could be promoted to general.

FallenAngelII
February 9th, 2007, 05:47 AM
It also makes sense IF that scenario your describing of how Carter replaces Weir happens. I mean think about...

Carter is:
-scientist... intelligent woman and with techno-babble as good as McKay's :D
-military... tough girl that can shoot guns and kick arse
-spokesperson to the public much like Weir (many times always speaking with the press or some audience in SG1)

She's by far the most well rounded character in terms of talents and abilities.
And that's the problem. She's got a foot in every door. She's "perfect". She's John, Elizabeth and Rodney combined. Do we really need a character like that not only on the show but also leading the expedition?

People will either get bored because they're basically seeing the same things twice or the PTB will go nuts and just remove John, Rodney and/or Elizabeth altogether.

SGFerrit
February 9th, 2007, 06:01 AM
(well, Sam's an old one, but not from the same show. She's only guest starred on the show once)"

Surely it has been more than once?

Edit: I checked she has been in 3 episodes. One each season so far.

We don't knwo if she is going to lead Atlantis yet. Lets wait and see. There is nothing we can do about it in the meantime.

Betelgeuze
February 9th, 2007, 06:10 AM
I don't really care who is leader of Atlantis, Weir or Carter. I like Weir, but given the current circumstances in the Pegasus Galaxy Carter may be more qualified then Weir. They now face two enemies, the Wraith and the Asurans. Carter has a lot of experience dealing with the replicators, she was the one who created the ARG's. The IOA may want a military leader because the situation has become more dangerous than before.

I don't think that Sheppard will become the permanent leader, because this would mean he won't be able to go ofworld as often, and the show pretty much revolves around Sheppard and his team.

Linzi
February 9th, 2007, 06:25 AM
I don't really care who is leader of Atlantis, Weir or Carter. I like Weir, but given the current circumstances in the Pegasus Galaxy Carter may be more qualified then Weir. They now face two enemies, the Wraith and the Asurans. Carter has a lot of experience dealing with the replicators, she was the one who created the ARG's. The IOA may want a military leader because the situation has become more dangerous than before.

I don't think that Sheppard will become the permanent leader, because this would mean he won't be able to go ofworld as often, and the show pretty much revolves around Sheppard and his team.
I agree.
I wouldn't want Sheppard to be leader in the long term. I like the going off world as a team stuff, personally. Besides, Sheppard just wouldn't want to be in charge, I don't think. All that paper work...;)
I think Carter could well replace Weir because the IOA decide to militarise Atlantis. That could easily be the way the writers and execs are taking the show. I think in RL, if such a scenario were to happen, it would have happened right about the time that TPTB on Earth found out that the wraith knew about Earth.

immhotep
February 9th, 2007, 06:37 AM
I think Carter should be given command, she is the only person in two galaxies that could outsmart Mkcay if the time came to it and she has more combat and intelectual experience in alien craft's, technological experiments, experimental warfare, alien negociations and she has the rank to out do Sheppard.
Now in the situation that we are in on altantis, which is at all out war with two highly advanced races on a ship that is finally a ship not a floating city. Now in those situations having someone who has major experience in fighting aliens is the kind of person i would want in charge. No offence to Weir but she isnt a fighter, yes she can order people to do stuff but carter has field experience and can make up plans and has the rank to execute them.
Should she replace wier, yes. In fact i think she is the only person who could replace weir and be able to take the heat from those under her. People do respect Carter, right now the Atlantis expedition is becoming more military than civilian, and while atlantis is technological wonder it needs a military commander but one that will not make it a military base. That person is Carter for obvious reasons, she is a brilliant scientist but can fight better than most. Can she lead? Can wier? Lets face it all she does is sit in her office and shout raise the shield every now and then while making speaches over the intercom about mkcays plans that she knows nothing about. With carter she can do that, she can verify and challenge anything Mkcay could come up with. So yes i think she can lead. Also if the ship is actually going to become a ship and gets some ZPM's off the oddesey (which is the ship carter WILL come on, there isnt any other options) then she can also use her knowledge of ships and thier systems effectively to command the ship as if it was really a ship.
Could Carter replace weir, yes. Should she replace Weir, absolutly.

Night Spring
February 9th, 2007, 01:11 PM
I think Carter should be given command, she is the only person in two galaxies that could outsmart Mkcay if the time came to it
I'm not sure why we need someone to "outsmart" McKay -- if you mean someone to put him in his place, well, both Sheppard and Weir do a good enough job at that. Even Zelenka has been known to put McKay in his place a few times. So we don't need someone else to do that.

If you mean someone who's smarter than McKay, well, that could be useful, I suppose, but again, McKay's solved pretty much every problem the Pegasus galaxy's thrown at him so far, so I'm not feeling any burning need to go looking for someone to "outsmart" him in that sense, either.

The thing is, when McKay says "Why don't I just go on the missions by myself, hm?" we laugh because we know it's a joke. With Sam, when you list all her credentials, you *really* wonder, "Well, what do we need any of the other characters around for? She can do all of their jobs by herself!"

That, IMO, is not a very good way to write a character. And of course, in SG-1, she didn't start out that way. She just acquired skill and expertise as time went on. But when you transplant such a character into another show, then it's basically like you wrote a new character for the show she's being transplanted into -- and if you stop and think about it, if you were writing a new character to bring into the show instead of bringing in a ready-made one, you'd never write a character who can do everything. Which means Sam's the wrong character to transplant.

So if you pretend that the show is real, and evaluate things in terms of what could happen in the context of the show's universe, yes, Carter could be seen as the ideal person to replace Weir. But seeing it from the perspective of keeping the show interesting, she's the worst character to replace Weir. You'd either get dizzy trying to utilize all her various talents, or you'd end up using just one or two of her talents, and get accused of underusing her. Which come to think of it, weren't people complaining she's being underused in SG-1?

PG15
February 9th, 2007, 06:38 PM
Oh, and I don't know how accurate this is, or where it's come from, but someone on my LJ flist has told me that she's heard that Torri will be in four episodes. FOUR for crying out loud. That's pathetic. It's another reason I won't be watching season four, and I'm not the only one.

If you don't know where it's from nor it's accuracy, then why trust it at all?

Mitchell82
February 9th, 2007, 06:42 PM
I think Carter should be given command, she is the only person in two galaxies that could outsmart Mkcay if the time came to it and she has more combat and intelectual experience in alien craft's, technological experiments, experimental warfare, alien negociations and she has the rank to out do Sheppard.
Now in the situation that we are in on altantis, which is at all out war with two highly advanced races on a ship that is finally a ship not a floating city. Now in those situations having someone who has major experience in fighting aliens is the kind of person i would want in charge. No offence to Weir but she isnt a fighter, yes she can order people to do stuff but carter has field experience and can make up plans and has the rank to execute them.
Should she replace wier, yes. In fact i think she is the only person who could replace weir and be able to take the heat from those under her. People do respect Carter, right now the Atlantis expedition is becoming more military than civilian, and while atlantis is technological wonder it needs a military commander but one that will not make it a military base. That person is Carter for obvious reasons, she is a brilliant scientist but can fight better than most. Can she lead? Can wier? Lets face it all she does is sit in her office and shout raise the shield every now and then while making speaches over the intercom about mkcays plans that she knows nothing about. With carter she can do that, she can verify and challenge anything Mkcay could come up with. So yes i think she can lead. Also if the ship is actually going to become a ship and gets some ZPM's off the oddesey (which is the ship carter WILL come on, there isnt any other options) then she can also use her knowledge of ships and thier systems effectively to command the ship as if it was really a ship.
Could Carter replace weir, yes. Should she replace Weir, absolutly.

I agree she could easily fill the role I'd rather her take military command and still have Weir in the backround.

PG15
February 9th, 2007, 06:56 PM
It was correct.

But that doesn't mean every rumor is correct...

Mitchell82
February 9th, 2007, 06:57 PM
Let's see -- several people told us that Torri was out late last year, and nobody believed it. Now we find out she's been cut to recurring. What does that tell you about that information?

Well it tells me that her role is reduced not out completly.

Major Tyler
February 9th, 2007, 07:57 PM
Personally, I love the idea of Carter in command of Atlantis. It makes the most sense, really. She's got the brains, experience, expertise, and she's respected by both the civilian and military worlds. She's the perfect combination of everything. To make it work, I think Carter would have to be promoted to full-bird Colonel, leaving Sheppard her 2IC, and leader of the flagship team.

Dr. Weir (should she fully recover) could still play a role in the adminstration of Atlantis. She could be Sam's civilian liaison, and be the chief civilian leader...she just wouldn't have the final say anymore. Or, even more prestigious, she could be Earth's Ambassador to the Pegasus Galaxy! Heck, she could be all those things! This just might work!

Now, if Weir doesn't fully recover, she could still be there in whatever capacity remains to give advice and be an inspiration for the expedition members. If Elizabeth's mental faculties were compromised by the blast, she might speak in cryptic riddles whose meaning is not immediately understood. Lots of shows have a mysterious character that they consult in times of crisis, "Kosh" of Babylon 5 being one example.

I can picture a scene of Sheppard and company entering a darkened room (so as not to irritate the skin grafts or the scars on her retinas from the laser) in the infirmary, where all you can hear is the quiet beep of the life-support monitors and the hiss of the respirator. Shep softly briefs Weir about their latest predicament, and after a long (but inciteful) pause, you see a bandaged hand glide slowly but gracefully over the keyboard of a laptop positioned on a stand over the bed.

Once the clicking of the keys dies away, you hear the monotone electronic sound of Weir's artificial voicebox squawking out the sage words she typed. Though the team initially puzzles over their meaning, by the end they are able to decipher it in time and it is vital to whatever solution Sam and the others devise. It wouldn't have to be the end of Weir! They could even wheel her out on occasion once her retinas heal. Wow! This would be a very unique and unexpected twist, and an intriguing way to develop Weir's character.

Personally, I hope they go for more of something in my first suggestion, but the second idea would be very interesting, too.

FoolishPleasure
February 9th, 2007, 08:11 PM
OMG i never thought of it that way, carter could be promoted to general.

Carter and Sheppard both hold the same rank of Lt. Colonel, however, since Carter has held the rank longer, she would technically be his superior. The net gossip vine is whispering that Carter will be promoted to full Bird, which definitely makes her Sheppard's boss. BTW, she could not jump two ranks at once and become Brig. General.

Major Tyler
February 9th, 2007, 08:22 PM
BTW, she could not jump two ranks at once and become Brig. General.That's not technically true. It is possible to jump over a rank, but it's very, very rare. It's called "deep selection" and usually only happens with flag officers. For instance, it's more likely that a Brigadier General would be deep selected into a Lt. General position (bypassing Major General), than it is for a Lt. Colonel to jump to Brig. General.

Also, some excellent officer candidates with sufficient credentials (mostly medical doctors) are deep selected into a Captain rank upon joining, bypassing both Lieutenant grades.

Coremae
February 9th, 2007, 09:25 PM
And that's the problem. She's got a foot in every door. She's "perfect". She's John, Elizabeth and Rodney combined. Do we really need a character like that not only on the show but also leading the expedition?

People will either get bored because they're basically seeing the same things twice or the PTB will go nuts and just remove John, Rodney and/or Elizabeth altogether.



Sorry ya'll feel that way. FirstSTrike kicked much butt, Weir in or out bothers me but her character hasn't found her nitch, YET. Sam would be cool as city head, though I think her character would be over kill, sweet, I so love over kill. Becket going bye bye isn't that much of a bad thing, his character was as cool as LT Barkley on STNG, I don't miss Barkley much. Ford is cool, though he's forgettable, super Ford is much much better and needs to come back. If only for an episode or two. You know what would be cool. Having Teal'c run Atlantis. Now that would be SWEEEEET.

Michael, is sooo cool. He's my new favorite villain, besies Ba'al Apophis, Anubis and maybe Adria, nah maybe not Adria.

PG15
February 9th, 2007, 09:29 PM
Perfect timing:


From Joe's Blog:

Anonymous #6 writes: “Is there any truth to the latest talk that Torri will be in only four episodes of season four?”

Answer: At present, we’re not talking about a specific or set amount of episodes.


So, it could still be 4, I suppose, but it hasn't been confirmed yet either way.

jenks
February 9th, 2007, 09:33 PM
I reckon they'll just plan the episodes and then writer her into the ones where she's needed, because there were a few episodes in season 3 where there was no real reason to have her in the episode at all.

Daniel Jackson
February 9th, 2007, 09:35 PM
So, it could still be 4, I suppose, but it hasn't been confirmed yet either way.
If she's going to be in that few, I think she'll be killed off. :(

Celcool
February 9th, 2007, 11:24 PM
I'm amazed that he actually answered that question instead of being snide and sarcastic.
Yes, that's a miracle, but still, his reply didn't really contain any answer. It doesn't say much to me, if anything, it made me even less optimistic, if that's even possible.

I have no faith whatsoever in tptb anymore.

Edit: I'm watching Andy Mikita interview from MGM site (already removed). He said that there're gonna be some interesting cast changes in Atlantis. Paul is gone and... crap, Torri will be gone.

I say better to think the worst now and maybe be surprised if it all turns out okay than be incredibly optimistic and then be terribly wrong about it. Torri needs to know that we support her, that's all.

FallenAngelII
February 10th, 2007, 01:59 AM
Surely it has been more than once?

Edit: I checked she has been in 3 episodes. One each season so far.

We don't knwo if she is going to lead Atlantis yet. Lets wait and see. There is nothing we can do about it in the meantime.
Oh I forgot about "Grace Under Pressure" for some reason. Her cameo in the 1st season should just count as a cameo. She appeared for 5 seconds and had 2 lines or something.


I think Carter should be given command, she is the only person in two galaxies that could outsmart Mkcay if the time came to it and she has more combat and intelectual experience in alien craft's, technological experiments, experimental warfare, alien negociations and she has the rank to out do Sheppard.
None of those things qualify her to lead the expedition. It qualifies her for Very Impressive Person, though. She is really intelligent, smart and well-learned. So? Does that make her worthy of leading the most important undertaking known to man? It's not like she'd still be allowed to work in the labs anymore, either. As leader of the expedition, she'll have other things to do.

As leader of the SGC, Jack went off-world how many times again?

She has combat experience, whatever? So? As the leader of Atlantis, she would not be stepping through that gate on a regular basis.

She can pull rank on John should she feel like it. So can Elizabeth. Even though she doesn't outrank him, she's still his boss. And ponder if Elizabeth couldn't and Sam could (aren't they both Lieutenant Colonels?). What a great show that would make for.

John: "Well, I think that..."
Sam: "I pull rank. Shut up!"

Just asking for internal problems.

hutchi4
February 10th, 2007, 02:25 AM
I'd have to admit I'm not a big fan of Weir but I think she should stay where she is as much as I think Carter is a great character she should not have the right to replace Weir overall I hate how they are changing everything on Atlantis I liked everything the way it was before.;)

entity22
February 10th, 2007, 03:17 AM
As some already mentioned,I too liked Atlantis just the way it was and I hate it when they kill off some characters especially when they were so popular (especially Carson).But as much as I hate the getting-rid-of-characters stuff while we're only at the 3 to 4 season,I don't mind getting Carter on the show.
I am a huge fan of Stargate Sg1 and I practically grew up with it so bringing a character from there is just fine with me.Besides,Sam is a great character and she has so many qualities :she's brave,tough,intelligent but also funny,kind and easygoing and ,in the last couple of Sg1 seasons,she was also allowed to be a little sarcastic/ironic and funny which is a big plus(not to mention that Amanda Tapping is just great).I mean,think about it for one sec,without all the hate,Carter is qualified for the job,any job and she's really not just a military person,none of them are just that.She will not go there as SG1 member but as Dr/Colonel Sam Carter.
I don't really get all the Sg1 hate that some SGA fans have because without SG1 there would be no SGA in the first place and 2 of the main characters actually appeared first on SG1(granted ,it was not Torri playing Weir then but still...).I started watching Atlantis late during Season 1 and only because it was a sister show to SG1,that's why I gave it a chance(well,that and McKay) and I loved it from the first episode so why not give Carter a chance (just like all our favourite actors advice us to do).I mean,first we should see how she fits in and then decide 'cause I doubt that bringing her to SGA is to blame for what will happen to Elizabeth + I don't really think she'll be in command .

nonniemous
February 10th, 2007, 05:11 AM
If you don't know where it's from nor it's accuracy, then why trust it at all?

Which is what everyone kept saying about the rumors that started circulating late last summer concerning Beckett's fate. Look how that worked out...

shep45
February 10th, 2007, 05:43 AM
hi i'm new here as you can see it's my first post, but i'm a huge SG fan, i was just thinking as i read your posts, if i'm the only one scared of the fact that they might create ahole new character for amanda Tapping meaning she will not come to SGA as sam carter???

quote from gateworld news thread, tapping in 14 atlantis episodes,

"Though Cooper recognizes that some fans are concerned about the move -- injecting an established show that is loved by fans with a character from its cancelled predecessor -- he believes that Tapping and the character she plays will convince them when Season Four premieres later this year. "It's such a likeable character, [and] she's such a good actress, I don't think anyone will have a problem with it once they see it," he said."

i hope they will keep her as sam carter but i'm scared they won't:(

Mar9645
February 10th, 2007, 06:10 AM
If they don't know how many episodes Elizabeth will be in (assuming, of course, that TPTB are telling the truth), it's because she's going to be recalled to Earth due to injuries/being fired and the has-been military character of Sam Carter will be sent to Atlantis (wherever it winds up landing) to take over the expedition, thereby blowing all to hell the civilian, multi-national concept the show started with.

They won't kill her outright because the fandom would be even more outraged than they already are. Somewhere down the road, depending on the ratings, they'll either have word come through to Atlantis that she died from complications of her First Strike injuries OR, knowing they need to save their ratings asses, Weir will be reinstated and back for Season 5.

I suspect, though, that she's already done for and they just won't admit it. It's a miracle those guys can still walk without tripping over their noses.

As I've said before, Stargate Atlantis will be dead and gone at the end of Season 4. Judging by the number of very blunt letters Sci Fi Weekly is printing on their site, I'd say the Sci Fi Channel is very aware of all the fan protests. They'll be watching the ratings even closer come summer.

The answer to this threads question is that Carter couldn't replace Weir in a billion light years!

Daniel Jackson
February 10th, 2007, 10:05 AM
Why does everyone think that Carter in charge of the expedition would put an end to the focus on civilian and multi-national matters?

You guys are acting like having a soldier in charge would militarize the city. That just isn't true. If it were just a city, I'd be for a civilian in charge, but since it doubles as a space ship, it makes sense to put a soldier in charge.

Athosian Death facilitator
February 10th, 2007, 10:21 AM
Carter's not some gung-ho soldier. I think she'd do as well as Weir.

k
i'm with ya but carter and sheppard are both ranked the same and still relatively new to their rankes.
So i think that Carter should be on Sheppards team instead demote Weir and give Daniel Jackson the job as lead administrator to the expidition because Anubis would have the city and everyone would be in serious trouble if it werent for him,
:samanime20: :danielanime13: :weiranime22: :sheppard28: :ronananime01: :teylaanime03: :mckayanime07: :mckayanime01: :mckayanime18: :samanime27: :samanime27: :samanime15:

chocdoc
February 10th, 2007, 10:49 AM
I'm afraid you might be right, given the fact they can't give a number. They can give a definite number for Amanda and Jewel. Why not Torri, unless they're having a rethink of what they're doing with her.... we can only hope that's the situation. Otherwise, by this point, they should have a definite number of eps locked away for her..

I'm also astounded by the number of letters being published on Scifi Weekly. It makes me even more confused as to who's behind the recent casting decisions. JM alluded to the fact that MGM has been completely supportive of everything they've wanted to do, but also alluded to Scifi being the one that makes demands with storyline and casting... why then would scifi allow those letters to be published on its website? It's all very confusing...

I wish we could get something into the mainstream media -- TV Guide for example.


Awhile ago Scifi Weekly published positive letters about AT's move to Atlantis. I think they publish all types of letters, and some of them are very harsh on the network itself---e.g., why did Scifi move Battlestar Gallactica to Sunday nights. A number of months ago there were quite a few negative letters about the character of Mitchell (and some of Vala as well). And then those were followed by a few positive letters. I think they publish all kinds of letters that convey different opinions for and against TPTB and Scifi's decisions concerning any of shows.

I am in favor of Sam going to Atlantis, but I also don't like that Weir is being reduced. I looked forward to Sam/Weir interactions actually. I wish someone would come out with why Weir is being reduced and by how much. Obviously JM does not want to say. I can't believe, however, that he doesn't already know (at least approximately) how much Weir will be in season 4. All he said was, he isn't talking about it.

Wormhole
February 10th, 2007, 10:52 AM
Could Carter replace Weir?

I hope not.

To me it looks like Atlantis is turning into SG-1 with all the Earth ships coming in and cast members coming over. I preferred it back in season one when they had no contact with Earth. Atlantis should be a show all on it’s own.

PG15
February 10th, 2007, 11:07 AM
Which is what everyone kept saying about the rumors that started circulating late last summer concerning Beckett's fate. Look how that worked out...

You have a point. However, as I said, one rumor being true doesn't mean all of them are. Besides, the Carson rumor seems to have come from all over the place, while this one...well, it's been disproven.




I'm also astounded by the number of letters being published on Scifi Weekly. It makes me even more confused as to who's behind the recent casting decisions. JM alluded to the fact that MGM has been completely supportive of everything they've wanted to do, but also alluded to Scifi being the one that makes demands with storyline and casting... why then would scifi allow those letters to be published on its website? It's all very confusing...



As choc said, this is what SciFi do, they seem to publish any letter they receive to remain "unbiased". For instance, you won't believe the number of letters that appeared after the cancellation of SG1 was announced that bashed SciFi.

Daniel Jackson
February 10th, 2007, 11:23 AM
k
i'm with ya but carter and sheppard are both ranked the same and still relatively new to their rankes.
So i think that Carter should be on Sheppards team instead demote Weir and give Daniel Jackson the job as lead administrator to the expidition because Anubis would have the city and everyone would be in serious trouble if it werent for him
Colonel Caldwell almost got control of Atlantis from Dr. Weir at the start of Season 2. If Carter is promoted to Colonel, then it would be realistic (in the context of the show) for Carter to lead Atlantis.

Mar9645
February 10th, 2007, 12:54 PM
I don't put much trust in MGM's place in this franchise anymore. I suspect they're just in it for the quick, short term bucks. Creativity-wise, they'd be better off imitating Paramount's very smart management when there were three Star Trek series running all in the same timeline - they kept them out of each others way, in every way. They and TPTB seem to have missed that very valuable scifi/episodic TV lesson.

The Sci Fi Channel was responsible for the Janet Fraiser/Heroes fiasco that sent SG-1 into the toilet. They may still be in that mindset. Does anyone here think they'd be that stupid again?

Actually, I think they may be thrilled over this new SGA mess-in-the-making. It'll give them an excuse to dump the show as the writing and the ratings crash.

Daniel Jackson
February 10th, 2007, 01:11 PM
I don't put much trust in MGM's place in this franchise anymore. I suspect they're just in it for the quick, short term bucks. Creativity-wise, they'd be better off imitating Paramount's very smart management when there were three Star Trek series running all in the same timeline - they kept them out of each others way, in every way. They and TPTB seem to have missed that very valuable scifi/episodic TV lesson.
You do realise that Star Trek has as many crossovers as Stargate, right? They even brought over Worf from TNG to DS9 much like Carter is being brought over from SG-1 to SG:A.


The Sci Fi Channel was responsible for the Janet Fraiser/Heroes fiasco that sent SG-1 into the toilet.
That didn't send SG-1 into the toilet. :confused:


They may still be in that mindset. Does anyone here think they'd be that stupid again?
Dr. Beckett ring a bell?


Actually, I think they may be thrilled over this new SGA mess-in-the-making. It'll give them an excuse to dump the show as the writing and the ratings crash.
The cast changes are being done to draw attention to the show, and guess whut, it's working.

Cameron Mitchel
February 10th, 2007, 01:20 PM
This thread contains spoilers for the end of 3-20 "First Strike."

I haven't seen "First Strike," but I am aware of how the episode ended in relation to the city and Dr. Weir, so don't spoil the rest of the episode for me. :p

We know Tapping is signed on to Season 4 for a total of 14 episodes, which is almost equal to being there as a full time regular. We also know that Torri Higginson has been reduced from a series regular to a recurring guest star, but the number of episodes is unkown.

I'm hoping Weir will remain in charge of Atlantis, and that the actress's demotion to recurring guest star simply means Weir won't be in ever single episode. I'd be cool with this so long as it's something like 10-15 episodes.

However, I feel that there is a very strong chance that Weir will either step down, be severely injured and thus incapable of leading Atlantis, or be killed off. This would allow Sheppard to take over the Atlantis Expedition or it could allow Carter to take over the expedition. Think about it... Atlantis, the technological marvel, lead by Carter. It just makes sense. Carter's brains would be applied to the city while McKay's brains are applied in the field. Why else would Carter spend so much time in Atlantis? It just makes sense.

If this is the case, do you think this'll be good or bad for the show? If you don't think Carter will replace Weir, tell us why!
I think it'll hurt the show, IMHO. And it'd be bad if she replaced Weir. Weir's a pretty good character. And, when you think about the fact that AT has had 10 YEARS of the Stargate Franchise screentime (meaning, on both shows), it comes to my mind, Does she really need to be on SGA? I already know how she's going to be put in the situation to come to Atlantis- I think: Atlantis's power is about to run out. The Odyssey has a ZPM.......

doylefan22
February 10th, 2007, 01:23 PM
Keeping my optimist hat on...

Perhaps Carter will take over (or even joint run it with Weir) for this season and one of the ongoing stories throughout will be a greater tension between the military and civilian branches of the expedition and a confusion over what it will really be.

By the end of the season (with Amanda only contractually obliged for a year) events will unfold and it will mean the city returns to a civilian project with military backup, putting Weir back in charge.

Cameron Mitchel
February 10th, 2007, 01:24 PM
Could Carter replace Weir?

I hope not.

To me it looks like Atlantis is turning into SG-1 with all the Earth ships coming in and cast members coming over. I preferred it back in season one when they had no contact with Earth. Atlantis should be a show all on it’s own.
But, having the ships has made the show, IMO, more interesting. I'm fine with all the ships, but I'm not fine with more than a few character cross-overs, and I'm especially not fine with literally ALL the AT cross-overs. I'd much rather see Daniel come to Atlantis, if anyone, since he has a specialty no one in SGA seems to have, and he won't overshadow or get in the way of another character's role. So, if we had a vote, that'd be mine.

Major Tyler
February 10th, 2007, 01:28 PM
I'd much rather see Daniel come to Atlantis, if anyone, since he has a specialty no one in SGA seems to have, and he won't overshadow or get in the way of another character's role. So, if we had a vote, that'd be mine.I don't know...SG-1's been the "Daniel and Vala Show" since the beginning of Season 9, and I really don't want that to bleed over to Atlantis and become the "Daniel and Daniel Show." In addition, I think Carter's presence will break up the "Sheppard and Rodney Show" that SGA has become over the years.

Cameron Mitchel
February 10th, 2007, 01:32 PM
I don't know...SG-1's been the "Daniel and Vala Show" since the beginning of Season 9, and I really don't want that to bleed over to Atlantis and become the "Daniel and Daniel Show." In addition, I think Carter's presence will break up the "Sheppard and Rodney Show" that SGA has become over the years.
I'm not saying that Daniel should become the spotlight, which is what Carter will most likely become. I'm jsut saying that if anyone should go to Atlantis, it should be Daniel. And, if it were my choice, I'd have it that no SG-1 character crossed-over to SGA for 14 out of 20 episodes.

Mar9645
February 10th, 2007, 01:34 PM
1. Other than Worf, name the others.

2. That's your opinion. And I have mine.

3. Killing Beckett was a decision made by TPTB, not Sci Fi.

4. So far, the cast changes, Beckett's death and Weir being reduced to recurring, Carter invading the Pegasus Galaxy and the cutsey little blond Dr. Keller's sudden appearance, have created a great deal of controversy. When the full reality of all these changes comes out in Season 4, along with the bad writing and storytelling, everyone responsible for all these great ideas will wish they had a time machine to go back to last year.

Back on topic - Carter couldn't replace Weir in a trillion light years!

Major Tyler
February 10th, 2007, 01:40 PM
The answer to this threads question is that Carter couldn't replace Weir in a billion light years!
Back on topic - Carter couldn't replace Weir in a trillion light years!A light-year is actually a distance calculation rather than a time-span.

Cameron Mitchel
February 10th, 2007, 01:42 PM
1. Other than Worf, name the others.

2. That's your opinion. And I have mine.

3. Killing Beckett was a decision made by TPTB, not Sci Fi.

4. So far, the cast changes, Beckett's death and Weir being reduced to recurring, Carter invading the Pegasus Galaxy and the cutsey little blond Dr. Keller's sudden appearance, have created a great deal of controversy. When the full reality of all these changes comes out in Season 4, along with the bad writing and storytelling, everyone responsible for all these great ideas will wish they had a time machine to go back to last year.

Back on topic - Carter couldn't replace Weir in a trillion light years!
To what post was this responding to (hint the comment about TPTB killing off Beckett, not SciFi)?

Rootortoise
February 10th, 2007, 02:27 PM
Carter replacing Weir? oh god i hope not, the only thing i dislike about season 4 of atlantis is carter coming over, her on a ship i could just about handle but if shes put in charge i will scream!
Im sorry but IMO carter has never been able to command her own team (oh wait no Cam was put in charge in the end wasnt he) let alone the atlantis expedition. weir as recurring id rather they just have her in more of a hammond-esque role rather than replace her with sam....anyway that would just confirm to us fans that they demoted weir just so they could bring their precious sammy over (nice way to treat their atlantis crew huh). then again we have the military covered and the scientist stuff covered so im still not exactly sure what sam's purpose in atlantis could be unless this is it, to put her in charge. Please NO!


Im really looking forward to season 4.....the only thing im not looking forward to is sam...ive never liked her, never will...thats my opinion of course.

Cameron Mitchel
February 10th, 2007, 02:51 PM
Carter replacing Weir? oh god i hope not, the only thing i dislike about season 4 of atlantis is carter coming over, her on a ship i could just about handle but if shes put in charge i will scream!
Im sorry but IMO carter has never been able to command her own team (oh wait no Cam was put in charge in the end wasnt he) let alone the atlantis expedition. weir as recurring id rather they just have her in more of a hammond-esque role rather than replace her with sam....anyway that would just confirm to us fans that they demoted weir just so they could bring their precious sammy over (nice way to treat their atlantis crew huh). then again we have the military covered and the scientist stuff covered so im still not exactly sure what sam's purpose in atlantis could be unless this is it, to put her in charge. Please NO!


Im really looking forward to season 4.....the only thing im not looking forward to is sam...ive never liked her, never will...thats my opinion of course.
Same here, except the part about not liking Sam. She's a good character. Just not fit to lead.

atlantis_babe34
February 10th, 2007, 04:43 PM
all i can say it SAY NO TO CROSSOVERS!!!

Carter shouldn't replace Weir.. even thought shes like comatised or something, but she aint well... Sheppy should be leading right about now.. they kinda got themselves into a bit a trouble there and its kinda a Military situation.. floating in the middle of knowhere but meh John should be and no crossovers!!!

Mitchell82
February 10th, 2007, 05:03 PM
all i can say it SAY NO TO CROSSOVERS!!!

Carter shouldn't replace Weir.. even thought shes like comatised or something, but she aint well... Sheppy should be leading right about now.. they kinda got themselves into a bit a trouble there and its kinda a Military situation.. floating in the middle of knowhere but meh John should be and no crossovers!!!

Well I don't think Carter will be replacing Weir and have no problem with Carter coming on Atlantis. I truly believe that if Carter comands anything it'd be a ship or the militery regiment, with Weir still at the helm of Atlantis.

Willow'sCat
February 10th, 2007, 05:17 PM
But Carter as leader? No, don't see her as having the ability. She's a scientist, a soldier, but not a leader. Far be it from me to defend Carter. :P But she is more leader then Weir will ever be and has the experience to handle many different situations (I would rather she continued to do that only on SG-1) but to say she is not a leader or does not have the potential to become one is missing the main element of leadership, adaptability to ones situation, Weir lacks the necessary experience in military engagement as shown plainly in the season ender, also to me Weir is more a figurehead then a leader.

(SGA) Weir is almost always deferring to Sheppard on military matters which is fine if *if* you think Sheppard is capable of handling that kind of thing but I don't. With Carter you would have a better rounded person leading Atlantis imo. SG-1 Weir was a diplomat, when Jessica played her I felt she was strong but I have never felt that from Torri's performance, I feel SGA Weir is there because tptb wanted to have a female and she was better then none. She may have even been an after-thought for inclusion on SGA given the hassles Jessica went through with tptb before they dumped her (how's that for irony ;) ) for Torri.

Would it be easy to have Carter as Leader? No. Would most SGA fans like to see it happen? No. But something is going to happen and if it came down to Weir or Carter I would choose Carter in a heartbeat. :cool:

Of course I would say this :cool: as I am not a fan of Weir or her leadership or rather lack there of; so please just ignore me. ;) :cool: :rolleyes:

Mitchell82
February 10th, 2007, 05:19 PM
Far be it from me to defend Carter. :P But she is more leader then Weir will ever be and has the experience to handle many different situations (I would rather she continued to do that only on SG-1) but to say she is not a leader or does not have the potential to become one is missing the main element of leadership, adaptability to ones situation, Weir lacks the necessary experience in military engagement as shown plainly in the season ender, also to me Weir is more a figurehead then a leader.

(SGA) Weir is almost always deferring to Sheppard on military matters which is fine if *if* you think Sheppard is capable of handling that kind of thing but I don't. With Carter you would have a better rounded person leading Atlantis imo. SG-1 Weir was a diplomat, when Jessica played her I felt she was strong but I have never felt that form Torri's performance, I feel SGA Weir is there because tptb wanted to have a female and she was better then none. She may have even been an after-thought for inclusion on SGA given the hassles Jessica went through with tptb before they dumped her (how's that for irony ;) ) for Torri.

Would it be easy to have Carter as Leader? No. Would most SGA fans like to see it happen? No. But something is going to happen and if it came down to Weir or Carter I would choose Carter in a heartbeat. :cool:

Of course I would say this :cool: as I am not a fan of Weir or her leadership or rather lack there of; so please just ignore me. ;) :cool: :rolleyes:
You make good points and while I'd rather see Carter as just military command or comand of her own ship, if she did replace Weir it wouldnt bother me though either.

Rosehawk
February 10th, 2007, 05:56 PM
Do I think Carter can replace Weir. Yes. Do I think Carter can do the same job as Weir. No.

TPTB have been alluding to a power struggle since season 2 between the military and civilian based running of Atlantis. Carter respresents both fractions which makes her a good character to put into Atlantis at this time since fans can relate to her and her background. However Carter is not a diplomat which is the special skills that Weir has and the skills that are needed to handle an International scientific community. There is no one in the current SGA world that can do what Weir does, effectively. To me, while Daniel might be able to, he does not want a leadership position. He likes to study archeology, not run a base. Sorry, I know alot would disagree with me on that but that is the way I see it with Daniel.

My guess is that a big part of season 4 is going to be spend in some kind of a power struggle and that Carter will be instrumental in getting Atlantis base back to where ever they want to take it. Working with McKay and I hope Zelenka.

It would be great to see Carter befriending Weir and helping her gain support and confidence in her abilities.

I am hoping that we will see Weir back as a regular in Season 5 with alot more confidence and support.

Cameron Mitchel
February 10th, 2007, 06:14 PM
Do I think Carter can replace Weir. Yes. Do I think Carter can do the same job as Weir. No.

TPTB have been alluding to a power struggle since season 2 between the military and civilian based running of Atlantis. Carter respresents both fractions which makes her a good character to put into Atlantis at this time since fans can relate to her and her background. However Carter is not a diplomat which is the special skills that Weir has and the skills that are needed to handle an International scientific community. There is no one in the current SGA world that can do what Weir does, effectively. To me, while Daniel might be able to, he does not want a leadership position. He likes to study archeology, not run a base. Sorry, I know alot would disagree with me on that but that is the way I see it with Daniel.

My guess is that a big part of season 4 is going to be spend in some kind of a power struggle and that Carter will be instrumental in getting Atlantis base back to where ever they want to take it. Working with McKay and I hope Zelenka.

It would be great to see Carter befriending Weir and helping her gain support and confidence in her abilities.

I am hoping that we will see Weir back as a regular in Season 5 with alot more confidence and support.
I for one wasn't saying Daniel should come and replace Weir. I believe that if anyone should come over, if thats what tptb wanna do, it should be Daniel, as an addition. You already have a "Carter" on SGA: that's Mckay. You already have a ship commander on SGA: that's Ellis, who, IMHO, was the best commander SGA's ever had (Determined and as good a commander as Caldwell, yet understanding and willing to be wrong at times). They don't need Carter on SGA.

Mitchell82
February 10th, 2007, 06:47 PM
Do I think Carter can replace Weir. Yes. Do I think Carter can do the same job as Weir. No.

TPTB have been alluding to a power struggle since season 2 between the military and civilian based running of Atlantis. Carter respresents both fractions which makes her a good character to put into Atlantis at this time since fans can relate to her and her background. However Carter is not a diplomat which is the special skills that Weir has and the skills that are needed to handle an International scientific community. There is no one in the current SGA world that can do what Weir does, effectively. To me, while Daniel might be able to, he does not want a leadership position. He likes to study archeology, not run a base. Sorry, I know alot would disagree with me on that but that is the way I see it with Daniel.

My guess is that a big part of season 4 is going to be spend in some kind of a power struggle and that Carter will be instrumental in getting Atlantis base back to where ever they want to take it. Working with McKay and I hope Zelenka.

It would be great to see Carter befriending Weir and helping her gain support and confidence in her abilities.

I am hoping that we will see Weir back as a regular in Season 5 with alot more confidence and support.

Agreed. Weir is feeling underminded and rightfully so as she should have been consulted. I see Carter trying to help smooth things along and get Weir back how she should be. I don't see her (Weir) leaving I see Carter convincing her to stay.

Cameron Mitchel
February 10th, 2007, 07:57 PM
Agreed. Weir is feeling underminded and rightfully so as she should have been consulted. I see Carter trying to help smooth things along and get Weir back how she should be. I don't see her (Weir) leaving I see Carter convincing her to stay.
I see Teyla doing that, just as she was attempting to do that in First Strike .

Anjirika
February 10th, 2007, 08:09 PM
Well I don't see HOW Carter could replace Weir I mean she still has the Ori (movies) to contend with not to mention the fact that she comes in her own ship...but it has been rumoured that she gets promoted to a full colonel- hence why she would out rank Sheppard....but I do see WHY she would. TPTB don't think that Elizabeth is a strong enough character or its a plot device to show how the US military with the IOA approval manages to militarize Atlantis (either way- it's the writers doing).... I think it's a mistake having her in charge of the city when it should be a diplomat....or even a scientist.....I just don't see how the IOA would let her take command....especially after Elis said that Sheppard should be in command but I guess we're going to have to wait to see what happens.....

bluealien
February 10th, 2007, 11:35 PM
Far be it from me to defend Carter. :P But she is more leader then Weir will ever be and has the experience to handle many different situations (I would rather she continued to do that only on SG-1) but to say she is not a leader or does not have the potential to become one is missing the main element of leadership, adaptability to ones situation, Weir lacks the necessary experience in military engagement as shown plainly in the season ender, also to me Weir is more a figurehead then a leader.

(SGA) Weir is almost always deferring to Sheppard on military matters which is fine if *if* you think Sheppard is capable of handling that kind of thing but I don't. With Carter you would have a better rounded person leading Atlantis imo. SG-1 Weir was a diplomat, when Jessica played her I felt she was strong but I have never felt that from Torri's performance, I feel SGA Weir is there because tptb wanted to have a female and she was better then none. She may have even been an after-thought for inclusion on SGA given the hassles Jessica went through with tptb before they dumped her (how's that for irony ;) ) for Torri.

Would it be easy to have Carter as Leader? No. Would most SGA fans like to see it happen? No. But something is going to happen and if it came down to Weir or Carter I would choose Carter in a heartbeat. :cool:

Of course I would say this :cool: as I am not a fan of Weir or her leadership or rather lack there of; so please just ignore me. ;) :cool: :rolleyes:


I agree with most of your points. Weir has never been leadership material IMO and First Strike reconfirmed why I have felt this way about her from the beginning. I'm still a bit skeptical about Carter coming to SGA and I don't like having SG1 characters on SGA, but I see her as a much stronger character than Weir so I am fairly confident that she would do a good job in the leadership role. Weir always came across as just a figurehead with no experience in the role she was given. They are at war and if the tpb want to continue showing us scenarios where Altantis is constantly trying to survive another day, then a civilian leader with no experience in military matters is not the ideal person to be in charge.

I agreed with Ellis that Sheppard should have always been in charge but then this would hinder him going out on missions so thats why they need to have someother military presence on Atlantis, and it looks like Carter will fill this role. I never warmed up to Weir as a leader due to her lack of leadership abilities, and think that Carter will have a much stronger presence than Weir ever had - IMO.

AlexD
February 11th, 2007, 07:06 AM
I agree with most of your points. Weir has never been leadership material IMO and First Strike reconfirmed why I have felt this way about her from the beginning. I'm still a bit skeptical about Carter coming to SGA and I don't like having SG1 characters on SGA, but I see her as a much stronger character than Weir so I am fairly confident that she would do a good job in the leadership role. Weir always came across as just a figurehead with no experience in the role she was given. They are at war and if the tpb want to continue showing us scenarios where Altantis is constantly trying to survive another day, then a civilian leader with no experience in military matters is not the ideal person to be in charge.

I agreed with Ellis that Sheppard should have always been in charge but then this would hinder him going out on missions so thats why they need to have someother military presence on Atlantis, and it looks like Carter will fill this role. I never warmed up to Weir as a leader due to her lack of leadership abilities, and think that Carter will have a much stronger presence than Weir ever had - IMO.

I think Weir is as much a leader as the writers of the show want her to be... :)

I think she was a good, strong yet compassionate leader in Season 1, but for the past 2 seasons, the writers have mainly focused on the duo Sheppard/McKay (I love those two characters btw :)), and as a result her role hasn't evolved at the same pace as the other two. It has declined and is stagnant in a way. I think they could have spent a little more time developing her role as the civilian leader of this expedition, even if her character would have still remained in the background in most episodes. I don't mean to compare SGA with Battlestar Galactica (BG), they're so different, but if you look at the character of President Laura Roslin in BG, it has evolved over time. She has learnt to deal with the military and has become stronger. I wish we'd seen that happened with Weir.

Now could Carter replace Weir? Well, as a well established character in SG1, the writers might find easier to write for her...

Personally, I like Carter and she would do a good job -- I don't think she would ruin the dynamic of the show, nor ruin the duo Sheppard/McKay.

But I also like Weir and I would prefer she stays on the show as the leader of SGA :)

Mitchell82
February 11th, 2007, 03:43 PM
I see Teyla doing that, just as she was attempting to do that in First Strike .

Hmm yeah I agree.

nowvoyager908
February 11th, 2007, 04:30 PM
Having never watched an episode of SG1, I can't speak to Carter in any capacity (except for the fact that I don't want her anywhere near SGA because I like the cast as it is . . .or was).

I have always liked Weir and can't imagine SGA without her. She may be a civilian with no military experience, but in the real world, civilians who have no military experience lead superpower nations. They hold in their hands the ability to end civilization as we know it by pressing those pesky little red buttons. We hope that these civilian leaders are thoughtful individuals who depend on the guidance of their advisors, both military and diplomatic, and decide accordingly. I would better trust a leader who looked at all avenues in resolving a conflict to one who thinks blowing something up is the answer to every question (are you hearing me TPTB).

IMHO Weir (and Beckett) provided the heart and soul of SGA and without them to balance Crockett and Tubbs, SGA has the potential to be nothing more than a showcase for shiny toys and big explosions. All surface and no substance. For some of us, that would be really sad.

Daniel Jackson
February 11th, 2007, 08:18 PM
Having never watched an episode of SG1, I can't speak to Carter in any capacity (except for the fact that I don't want her anywhere near SGA because I like the cast as it is . . .or was).
Carter's already been in three episodes, so you could draw from those.

"Letters from Pegasus" (cameo)
"Grace Under Pressure" (fantasy)
"McKay and Mrs. Miller"
Her third episode is whut I would judge Carter on Atlantis being like.


I would better trust a leader who looked at all avenues in resolving a conflict to one who thinks blowing something up is the answer to every question (are you hearing me TPTB).
You are aware that soldiers are not trigger happy idiots? Carter is SG-1's version of McKay, so it makes sense for her to lead the Atlantis Expedition. Logically, Carter would be equally as capable as Weir. There's also no reason to think Carter would militarize the city and be trigger happy unless you have a personal grudge against the military or think they're all trigger happy dumbies. :rolleyes:


IMHO Weir (and Beckett) provided the heart and soul of SGA
Agreed. :(


SGA has the potential to be nothing more than a showcase for shiny toys and big explosions.
I disagree. Carter has as much heart and soul as Weir, so it would be a good change to the show.

lunarleviathan
February 11th, 2007, 11:04 PM
Haven't read the rest of this thread, so forgive me if someone else has aalready speculated something similar.

The way I see it is that Weir will die/be forced to give up "command"/or be injured and unable to continue. This new Ellis guy looks like he's being set up as some kind of leader. Now, he arrived on a new ship. Carter is arriving on a new ship, perhaps the same ship or a replacement after something happens to it? You can see what I'm getting at, Weir goes bye bye, Ellis takes over, and Carter becomes the new helpful ship commander character which seems to be a requirement for many Atlantis plots to work.

Even though I really like Weir's character... it doesn't and never did make any sense so I'll be glad if she's gone from the series (hopefully not 100% gone though, as I say I like the character.) Atlantis should have been a Military run operation from the start, or at the very least once the Wraith and other hostile were discovered.

I think the last episode brought this point to the surface again, and I can only assume that it was done to set up a transition from civilian control to military control. I'm hopeful of that anyway, it makes sense

My first point though, doesn't make a whole lot of sense to me, but it does fit. If control were to pass fully to the Military then I would expect a General to be in command as with the SGC rather than a Lt. Col.

Willow'sCat
February 11th, 2007, 11:34 PM
IMHO Weir (and Beckett) provided the heart and soul of SGA.So this is the same Weir that allowed Sheppard to Nuke a planet of Wraith-humans and the same Beckett who tested a retro virus on Wraith-Humans without any kind of consent what-so-ever? They were no more the heart and soul of SGA then the third tree from the left in Common Ground was. :cool:

StratoBOB
February 12th, 2007, 12:25 AM
OMG I didn't think about the possibility that Sam can replace not Weir but McKay or both of them. She is a smart scientic and I'm wondering will Rodney and Carter could be fit together. I know Sam & McKay can work well together but since SciFi reported that David Hewlett stars new comedy show this year and wondering how this will afect to his work in SGA.
I know this is a crazy idea but since we are focused on Weir reduction we may loose something else. :(

Celcool
February 12th, 2007, 02:26 AM
Having never watched an episode of SG1, I can't speak to Carter in any capacity (except for the fact that I don't want her anywhere near SGA because I like the cast as it is . . .or was).

I have always liked Weir and can't imagine SGA without her. She may be a civilian with no military experience, but in the real world, civilians who have no military experience lead superpower nations. They hold in their hands the ability to end civilization as we know it by pressing those pesky little red buttons. We hope that these civilian leaders are thoughtful individuals who depend on the guidance of their advisors, both military and diplomatic, and decide accordingly. I would better trust a leader who looked at all avenues in resolving a conflict to one who thinks blowing something up is the answer to every question (are you hearing me TPTB).

IMHO Weir (and Beckett) provided the heart and soul of SGA and without them to balance Crockett and Tubbs, SGA has the potential to be nothing more than a showcase for shiny toys and big explosions. All surface and no substance. For some of us, that would be really sad.
Indeed. I would've greened you but I can't atm. Good points about everything! It's exactly what I don't want it to happen on the show and it would if they get rid of Elizabeth completely or even if she's recurring.



I disagree. Carter has as much heart and soul as Weir, so it would be a good change to the show.
I disagree. :P Even if according to some people she has as much heart and soul as Elizabeth, does that give her the right to take the show over from Elizabeth? I don't think so. Weir is the leader, Atlantis is "hers" and Carter is just an "intruder" in that sense.

RealmOfX
February 12th, 2007, 03:20 AM
Indeed. I would've greened you but I can't atm. Good points about everything! It's exactly what I don't want it to happen on the show and it would if they get rid of Elizabeth completely or even if she's recurring.


I disagree. :P Even if according to some people she has as much heart and soul as Elizabeth, does that give her the right to take the show over from Elizabeth? I don't think so. Weir is the leader, Atlantis is "hers" and Carter is just an "intruder" in that sense.


Hello!! Carter is a character - she isn't doing anything. TPTB are the ones doing something!!! Can we keep the rhetoric to a minimum please?

Carter is a character that has the qualifications and experience to lead the Atlantis expedition and I'll even go as far as agreeing to the heart and soul bit. So does Weir, I'm all for Liz remaining in her current leadership position. However I've got no idea what TPTB have planned or why they have decided to go with their plans.

However just because my preference is for Elizabeth to remain in charge does not mean I can't see that Sam could lead the expedition. She is perfectly capable of doing so and TPTB may make that decision (I hope not) but if they do so then she can, as the character has been written, be a reasonable candidate.

Celcool
February 12th, 2007, 05:40 AM
Hello!! Carter is a character - she isn't doing anything. TPTB are the ones doing something!!!?
Of course I'm aware of that. ;) I should have worded it differently but you know what I mean.

prion
February 12th, 2007, 05:42 AM
Which is what everyone kept saying about the rumors that started circulating late last summer concerning Beckett's fate. Look how that worked out...

The rumors about carson unfortunately were dead on the mark (no pun intended). THe rumors about Torri have been confirmed as well; the producers said (on a video) that Weir would be recurring. If that's not confirmation, I don't know what is. They can't even confirm 4 episodes whereas with AT and JS, they can confirm because those people are under contract. It appears Torri is no longer under contract if they can't confirm.


k
i'm with ya but carter and sheppard are both ranked the same and still relatively new to their rankes.
So i think that Carter should be on Sheppards team instead demote Weir and give Daniel Jackson the job as lead administrator to the expidition because Anubis would have the city and everyone would be in serious trouble if it werent for him,
:samanime20: :danielanime13: :weiranime22: :sheppard28: :ronananime01: :teylaanime03: :mckayanime07: :mckayanime01: :mckayanime18: :samanime27: :samanime27: :samanime15:

Don't want Carter on Shep's team. Nope.Nada. We have a scientist already - McKay. We have Ronon as 'muscle' ;) and Teyla as backup. What good would Carter do on the team? She'd be redundant as McKay does that. As for daniel, MS has shown no interest (to my knowledge) and for some reason, TPTB only want AT to cross over. Not sure why.

nonniemous
February 12th, 2007, 05:46 AM
So this is the same Weir that allowed Sheppard to Nuke a planet of Wraith-humans and the same Beckett who tested a retro virus on Wraith-Humans without any kind of consent what-so-ever? They were no more the heart and soul of SGA then the third tree from the left in Common Ground was. :cool:

Poor writing and poor characterization on the writing and production staff do not mean that these characters are not the heart and soul of the expedition.

Major Tyler
February 12th, 2007, 06:17 AM
She may be a civilian with no military experience, but in the real world, civilians who have no military experience lead superpower nations. They hold in their hands the ability to end civilization as we know it by pressing those pesky little red buttons.You seem to be comparing Weir to real world leaders, and I must say that's probably not too flattering. :S

nowvoyager908
February 12th, 2007, 06:32 AM
You seem to be comparing Weir to real world leaders, and I must say that's probably not too flattering. :S

Actually, I was pointing out certain real world facts for posters who felt that Weir, as a civilian, should not lead Atlantis. However, my guess is that Weir, or any woman for that matter, would have an entirely different persepctive on world matters than the current boys' club running (some might even say ruining) the planet. ;)

nowvoyager908
February 12th, 2007, 06:51 AM
Carter's already been in three episodes, so you could draw from those.

You're right on this account, but I was talking about seeing her in her own element. I have never seen a full episode of SG1 because it just never held my interest. But, I hated her dynamic with McKay in Grace Under Pressure. Thought it brought out the worst in him, even if she was an hallucination. I don't need to see that for 14 whole episodes.


You are aware that soldiers are not trigger happy idiots? Carter is SG-1's version of McKay, so it makes sense for her to lead the Atlantis Expedition. Logically, Carter would be equally as capable as Weir. There's also no reason to think Carter would militarize the city and be trigger happy unless you have a personal grudge against the military or think they're all trigger happy dumbies. :rolleyes:

Please, don't put words in my mouth. I do not think soldiers are trigger happy anything, but they are trained in combat and tactical techniques, not diplomatic solutions. So it would be natural for them to look at all situations from that angle. On the other hand, diplomats are trained to use words and not bullets, which is a completely different dynamic. There is a time and place for each solutuion, or a combination of both, and a a good civilian leader needs advice from both points of view.


I disagree. Carter has as much heart and soul as Weir, so it would be a good change to the show.

IMHO, the only change the show NEEDS is better writing. Playing bait and switch with the cast won't resolve anything.

Suzotchka
February 12th, 2007, 07:57 AM
Could Carter replace Weir? Hmm .. I guess that depends in what capacity Sam Carter will be coming to Atlantis. If she is in Command of her own ship, then I really can't see her also being in charge of Atlantis.

Unless Weir is replaced by another civilian, wouldn't that mean that, in effect, Atlantis would be under military control?

I like Weir because she is not in the military and can bring other perspectives to the situation. Not everything needs to be blown-up into oblivion. I like that there is someone on Atlantis that wants to try and negotiate and work things out first.

I guess my question is: why can't we have both of them? Weir as leader of Atlantis and Carter commanding her own ship?

Major Tyler
February 12th, 2007, 08:06 AM
We could easily have both characters. Remember when Weir said the IOA was happy to have her as "chief administrator" so I don't see why she couldn't still be that. Sam would just have the final say on all the "big decisions" that Weir doesn't have the competence to make, and have command over the military.

I'm sure Shep wouldn't mind...he'd be working for the hottest chicks in Stargate. ;)

FallenAngelII
February 12th, 2007, 08:10 AM
Why do people keep saying that Sam has the qualifications to lead Atlantis? The woman's a lot of things, but a diplomat and a leader of a greater expedition she is not. In her 10 years on SG-1, she hasn't done a thing that indicates she's qualified to lead Atlantis.

Leading Atlantis isn't just knowing a lot about science (because Elizabeth doesn't and neither do Jack, Landry and Hammond), being a good soldier (because Atlantis is a civilian operation) and just being a good thinker in general.

You need not only leadership abilities but a whole bunch of other abilities. Abilities that politicians and people like Elizabeth (in her field of work) have. Can anyone honestly claim that Sam has those kinds of abilities?

Major Tyler
February 12th, 2007, 08:15 AM
Why do people keep saying that Sam has the qualifications to lead Atlantis? The woman's a lot of things, but a diplomat and a leader of a greater expedition she is not.Some people might say the same about Weir.
You need not only leadership abilities but a whole bunch of other abilities. Abilities that politicians and people like Elizabeth (in her field of work) have. Can anyone honestly claim that Sam has those kinds of abilities?Sam's got that and more to spare, in my opinion. :D

Ellara
February 12th, 2007, 08:15 AM
AT had one more year left on her contract with SG1, but as that show went 'belly-up', TPTB decided to exercise or maybe that should be 'exORcise' their right to move her over to Atlantis for that year.

Now, I personally think they're insane. They should have thanked AT for all her hard work over the past ten years, then patted her on her backside and sent her off to TV movie heaven where all the others out-of-work actors end up.

Substituting a character from an existing show with a character from a defunct show does not make sense to me. Where's the gain? Also, TPTB must have known that kicking Weir out would get the fans backs up, see the Beckett fiasco. When will they ever learn?

Maybe they should look a little closer to home when they want to lighten the load, i.e. the writers, not the actors!

Better writing has saved many a show.

I suggest they look into that and stop doing the Texas Two-Step with established 'Atlantis' characters.

Major Tyler
February 12th, 2007, 08:19 AM
Now, I personally think they're insane. They should have thanked AT for all her hard work over the past ten years, then patted her on her backside and sent her off to TV movie heaven where all the others out-of-work actors end up.Patted her on the backside?! That's just disrespectful and totally out of line, regardless of what you think of TPTB and their decisions! :mad:

Suzotchka
February 12th, 2007, 08:19 AM
You know, TPTB wouldn't make Sam Carter leader of SG-1, so why should I believe they're going to make her leader of Atlantis?

Sorry, I'm a Sam fan (AND a Weir fan - yes it is possible to like both characters) and it still irks me that she didn't get to be the leader of SG-1.

Major Tyler
February 12th, 2007, 08:21 AM
Sorry, I'm a Sam fan and it still irks me that she didn't get to be the leader of SG-1.I'm totally with you there! Cam should have been a Major.

prion
February 12th, 2007, 08:21 AM
Why do people keep saying that Sam has the qualifications to lead Atlantis? The woman's a lot of things, but a diplomat and a leader of a greater expedition she is not. In her 10 years on SG-1, she hasn't done a thing that indicates she's qualified to lead Atlantis.

Leading Atlantis isn't just knowing a lot about science (because Elizabeth doesn't and neither do Jack, Landry and Hammond), being a good soldier (because Atlantis is a civilian operation) and just being a good thinker in general.

You need not only leadership abilities but a whole bunch of other abilities. Abilities that politicians and people like Elizabeth (in her field of work) have. Can anyone honestly claim that Sam has those kinds of abilities?


Leading an entire city - which involves a ton of bureaucratic nonsense - is a far cry from leading a team on a mission, or doing a science project (I know there's another term to say that, but well, mind blanks). I dn't want to see the writers turn Sam into what many fans have accused her of already - Super Sam - she can fly planes, do science, lead, bake brownies, do windows and god knows what else. In other words, she's basically, nearly perfect. The dreaded 'Mary Sue' of fanfic. She borders close to it.

I'd also hate to see Atlantis get militarized, which is precisely what would happen if Carter - in the USAF - would be doing. We'd lose any civilian context at that point.

Major Tyler
February 12th, 2007, 08:27 AM
Leading an entire city - which involves a ton of bureaucratic nonsense...If Same can battle aliens, she can battle bureaucratic nonsense. :P Besides, saying she's "leading an entire city" is misleading. She'd be leading a relatively small expedition that's exploring/studying an otherwise empty city. Full-bird Colonels (and some Lt. Colonels, for that matter) are often put in charge of entire bases with as many as 5,000 personnel! The 200+ expedition members are nothing compared to that.
I'd also hate to see Atlantis get militarized, which is precisely what would happen if Carter - in the USAF - would be doing. We'd lose any civilian context at that point.The civilian context would be unchanged because most of the expedition will still be comprised of civilians (unless TPTB decide to kick them all out, which I doubt). Plus, Sam would still be answerable to the IOA...an international civilian political body.

FallenAngelII
February 12th, 2007, 08:35 AM
That's like saying if we kicked Landry out of Cheyenne Mountain and put, oh, Daniel in charge of the SGC, it wouldn't be a civilian controlled operation.

Ellara
February 12th, 2007, 08:36 AM
Patted her on the backside?! That's just disrespectful and totally out of line, regardless of what you think of TPTB and their decisions! :mad:

I disagree.

Maybe if the comment had come from a male then maybe it could be misconstrued as sexist.

However, since I am not and...as it was not written with any disrepectful intent towards AT, I feel my 'hypothetical description' was valid.

Everyone is too PC nowadays, we're all very quick to beat someone down for expressing a point of view. I think we all need to relax and allow people to say what they think and feel about a subject as long as its not vile or abusive. After all, this is a FORUM...see dictionary meaning:

A medium for open discussion or voicing of ideas, such as a newspaper, a radio or television program, or a website.

Starting to sensor peoples views just because they don't agree with yours appears to be a bit tyrannical or even totalitarian.

Major Tyler
February 12th, 2007, 08:43 AM
I disagree.

Maybe if the comment had come from a male then maybe it could be misconstrued as sexist.I never said it was sexist, I said it was disrespectful.
Starting to sensor peoples views just because they don't agree with yours appears to be a bit tyrannical or even totalitarian.I didn't object to your opinion, I objected to the disrespectful way you expressed it.

Whom did I censor?

Ellara
February 12th, 2007, 09:03 AM
I never said it was sexist, I said it was disrespectful.I didn't object to your opinion, I objected to the disrespectful way you expressed it.

Whom did I censor?

I don't think it was.

You're entitled to your opinion, I'm entitled to mine.

Daniel Jackson
February 12th, 2007, 09:37 AM
You know, TPTB wouldn't make Sam Carter leader of SG-1, so why should I believe they're going to make her leader of Atlantis?
Carter was promoted to Lt. Col. and SG-1 Team Leader at the end of "New Order, Part 2." She remained the team leader for the rest of the season. :sam:

In Season 9, I would have liked to see Carter resume team leadership when she officially rejoined the team, but they left Mitchell in charge. A man who's first trip through the Stargate was in the Season 9 premiere. :rolleyes:

Major Tyler
February 12th, 2007, 09:39 AM
In Season 9, I would have liked to see Carter resume team leadership when she officially rejoined the team, but they left Mitchell in charge. A man who's first trip through the Stargate was in the Season 9 premiere. :rolleyes:Cam's not actually "in charge." His name might be in the roster as the team leader, but he doesn't really "lead." It's clearly been a team effort.

Uber
February 12th, 2007, 10:19 AM
AT had one more year left on her contract with SG1, but as that show went 'belly-up', TPTB decided to exercise or maybe that should be 'exORcise' their right to move her over to Atlantis for that year.

Now, I personally think they're insane. They should have thanked AT for all her hard work over the past ten years, then patted her on her backside and sent her off to TV movie heaven where all the others out-of-work actors end up.

Substituting a character from an existing show with a character from a defunct show does not make sense to me. Where's the gain? Also, TPTB must have known that kicking Weir out would get the fans backs up, see the Beckett fiasco. When will they ever learn?

Maybe they should look a little closer to home when they want to lighten the load, i.e. the writers, not the actors!

Better writing has saved many a show.

I suggest they look into that and stop doing the Texas Two-Step with established 'Atlantis' characters.Well Amanda is hardly an out-of-work actress...even without SGA, her plate is quite full.

That being said, I think that they're looking at this from the perspective that they can tell stories they weren't able to before, that they can take the show in a different direction and perhaps tighten the story telling more...and of course, obviously, to hopefully woo SG-1 fans to SGA.

I think the notion of keeping the expedition fully civilian was naive at best, negligent at worse. It simply isn't a tenable long-term scenario given the circumstances. The IOA wanted to keep it civilian because they could exact more control over things...but like Woolsey said, even though they wouldn't WANT to go military, they might not have a choice.

Given the way things are going, it certainly looks like this will be the case.

Daniel Jackson
February 12th, 2007, 10:25 AM
Well, Ben Browder is creditted first, not Amanda Tapping, so that leads me to think Mitchell is team leader instead of Carter.

I understand it's a team effort, it always has been. The team still has to have a leader. It's either Mitchell or Carter.

FallenAngelII
February 12th, 2007, 10:29 AM
About Elizabeth's credentials:
Elizabeth was obviously qualified as she was given command of Atlantis. We don't know everything about her history. We know she was a diplomat with a lot of experience, a qualification needed to lead an expedition such as Atlantis.

What diplomatic work has Sam ever done? The two times she'd had to deal directly with politics, she blindlingly gave Space Hitler the power to win his war (and glared at Daniel for daring to question him) and blindlingly let the Aschen come and sterilize us all (of course, all of Earth did that, but Sam wasn't much better than anyone else).

The point is that she hasn't done anything politicial or expedition-worthy in 10 years besides trusting people who offered her power blindlingly.

Major Tyler
February 12th, 2007, 10:41 AM
What diplomatic work has Sam ever done? The two times she'd had to deal directly with politics, she blindlingly gave Space Hitler the power to win his war (and glared at Daniel for daring to question him) and blindlingly let the Aschen come and sterilize us all (of course, all of Earth did that, but Sam wasn't much better than anyone else).In neither of those case did Sam have the final say, so you can't truthfully know what she would have done if she had the last word.

You forgot to mention the fact that Sam was the one who corrected the error of the Aschen (among other instances of saving the entire planet basically on her own).

Also, if you want to compare mistakes, I suggest you take a closer look at Weir's record (giving Wraith intergalactic hyperdrive is my personal favorite). Luckily Sheppard cleaned up that mess.

Even admitting that neither are perfect, the difference between the two characters is that Sam has the ability to correct her errors, whereas Elizabeth often needs someone else to fix hers for her.

Atlantis1
February 12th, 2007, 10:43 AM
I believe Weir is best as leader. Look at it from the side of the civilians in Atlantis. They know and trust her. In the past when there has been military leadership the civilians have been treated as though they were useless.

Remember the discussion between McKay, Zelenka and another scientist in The Siege PT 2. The Intruder episode comes to mind as to how the military felt toward scientist. When I see Carter, I think military. Carter has her place in SG-1. I don't see why Atlantis would need her.

Suzotchka
February 12th, 2007, 10:58 AM
Even admitting that neither are perfect, the difference between the two characters is that Sam has the ability to correct her errors, whereas Elizabeth often needs someone else to fix hers for her.

I have to say that I don't think that's fair (in response to the bolded part). Of course Sam has the ability to fix her errors. Most of her mistakes are scientific or military-mistakes. She's a genius-scientist and a soldier. If it's a military mistake, she can go in with a team of marines and blow things up to make it right.

I think it really isn't a fair comparison between the two of them. They are too different. Sam's actions are more geared towards a military response while Elizabeth's aren't.

Yes, the final decision for all Atlantis matters rests with Weir. But she does know when to defer to John when it comes to military matters. And I think that, in the end, she gets the consensus from her team and makes her decisions based on their recommendations. So maybe she's just getting bad advice from her team (Rodney, John, Teyla, Ronon, Chuck, etc.). In the end they all need to be held accountable when the plan doesn't come together. :p

I just think it would be really cool to have Carter being the military commander of Atlantis, advising Weir on how to handle military situations. :)

FallenAngelII
February 12th, 2007, 10:59 AM
In neither of those case did Sam have the final say, so you can't truthfully know what she would have done if she had the last word.

You forgot to mention the fact that Sam was the one who corrected the error of the Aschen (among other instances of saving the entire planet basically on her own).

Also, if you want to compare mistakes, I suggest you take a closer look at Weir's record (giving Wraith intergalactic hyperdrive is my personal favorite). Luckily Sheppard cleaned up that mess.

Even admitting that neither are perfect, the difference between the two characters is that Sam has the ability to correct her errors, whereas Elizabeth often needs someone else to fix hers for her.
No but she willingly went along in both instances. In the case of the Aschen, everyone was fooled. In the case of the what's-his-name-that-Space-Hitler-guy, Teal'c was just quiet, Jack was incessant and overbearing and Sam was on Jack's side, ignoring and even glaring at Daniel.

She even added that she "[hated] to say it" when she admitted to Daniel having a point.

This shows she was obviously duped (without ever questioning Space Hitler).

Did you even watch "Allies"? I'm so sick and tired of people claiming the Atlantis expedition "trusted" the Wraith and that they "joined forces" with the Wraith in "Allies".

They did neither. They were forced into an alliance with the Wraith under threat of imminent death (how many weeks do you think they would've lived if they'd refused to co-operate? For one thing, that one Hive would immediately attack them and then there'd be the rest of the galaxy to worry about).

And the expedition never ever trusted them. Even as Rodney was supervising the repairs on the damaged Hive, he was secretly hacking their systems.

Elizabeth didn't knowingly or willing give the Wraith anything. The stupid scientists who, for whatever reason, moved the Wraith information from firewalled non-networked computers to non-firewalled/non-networked computers did.

You cannot point at Elizabeth Weir's past mistakes and claim they make Sam a perfect leader. Heck, you can prove Elizabeth is the worst expedition leader in the history of the world. The only thing that will prove is that Elizabeth's a bad leader who should be replaced. Sam still lacks the many qualities which Elizabeth actually has, qualities which are needed to lead an expedition such as Atlantis.

Major Tyler
February 12th, 2007, 11:07 AM
It seems like Dr. Weir always thinks she has to prove herself, and this insecurity hinders her leadership ability. We saw that in spades in the episode "38 Minutes." She ran around throughout the crisis fretting and telling everyone how busy she was, but in truth all she was really doing is pestering people for updates and yelling at people who didn't say what she wanted to hear. When Zelenka basically told Weir to "shut up" in the Jumper Bay, I did blame him in the slightest.

She didn't have time to talk to Halling about religion, but she had plenty of time to tear down Kavanaugh. Appearing busy was more important to her than acknowledging the fact that none of her talents were particularly useful in this situation. She needed everyone to see how important and vital she is, because she is afraid that if she doesn't everyone will think she's irrelevant. Sometime leaders have to forego their own fears and let others lead.

That was the second (third?) episode of the first season, so it was to be expected, but here we are at the end of the third season, and she is still just as insecure. Based on her conversation, she's even insecure about being a woman in her position. You'd think by now she would have found her footing and be confident, but she is still trying to prove that she can do it and (based on the aforementioned conversation) that she is a strong woman.

Sam, on the other hand, never let these insecurities effect her leadership. When she felt insecure she didn't try to overcompensate for them...quite the opposite, she acknowledged (often openly) accepted them, and tried to overcome them. Also, Sam never needed to prove she was a strong woman, she just did her job and everyone knew.

Uber
February 12th, 2007, 11:17 AM
I don't think anyone is claiming that either Carter or Weir are perfect. Neither of them are. Both have made mistakes.

I'm kind of amused that you're dragging up an incident from The Other Side which was 6 years ago as your proof that Carter doesn't have the ability to lead. If there were a long string of similar incidents or if she still behaved in such a manner, your argument might have some merit. But if that one incident somehow proved her inability to lead, then Jack would have to be disqualified too, and even more so because he wasn't even willing to listen to Daniel's objections.

Sam has learned though over the years and isn't quite as trusting as she used to be. She gives people the benefit of the doubt but doesn't fully trust them until they've proven themselves trustworthy. Just like she did with Corso in Forsaken and the Rand Protectorate in Icon. She's not perfect and she does make the wrong call sometimes...just like everyone else.

Weir has made serious mistakes as well and she's also grown more into the role...but I think that the issue here is that the position requirements will change. Given the situation in Atlantis, I just don't believe maintaining a civilian command is tenable. I think First Strike gives clear indication of this, not only in the circumstances they're facing but also with Weir recognizing some fairly harsh political realities.I think the situation is ideal for Carter, who can manage both military and civilian assets and has extensive experience in both fields. I do hope we continue to see Weir, but I'd prefer to see her as a diplomat negotiating treaties and such.

Falcon Horus
February 12th, 2007, 11:27 AM
I do hope we continue to see Weir, but I'd prefer to see her as a diplomat negotiating treaties and such.

Is that before or after the military leader decided to blow things to oblivion first?

Night Spring
February 12th, 2007, 11:29 AM
Sam, on the other hand, never let these insecurities effect her leadership. When she felt insecure she didn't try to overcompensate for them...quite the opposite, she acknowledged (often openly) accepted them, and tried to overcome them. Also, Sam never needed to prove she was a strong woman, she just did her job and everyone knew.
"Never"? What about CotG, and that line about "reproductive organs"? Seemed overcompensating to me. Granted, that was in the very first episode, and you could argue she's come a long way since then. But I can remember Sam having insecurities about her leadership as recently as Zero Hour (S8). Granted, that bout of insecurity wasn't explicitly linked to her being a woman. But I think *everyone* has insecurities about their abilities from time to time. So Weir had her moment of insecurity in First Strike. Given the circumstances, I wouldn't use that to judge her entire leadership.

And while I tend to agree with you about the weaknesses in Weir's leadership in 38 Minutes, and in other episodes throughout the series, I blame that on the writers not really knowing how to write a strong and competent diplomat than that they were intentionally trying to write Weir as a weak leader. So I don't really trust them to be able to write Carter well as a leader either. In fact, the few times I've seen Landry, mostly in his guest appearances on Atlantis, he didn't come off as a great leader either. So what I'm saying, I guess, is that whichever character gets stuck with the role of Atlantis leader in this franchise is most likely doomed to turn into an incompetent idiot, no matter what the character's personality/talents were up to that point.

Madeleine
February 12th, 2007, 11:30 AM
I don't think it was.

You're entitled to your opinion, I'm entitled to mine.

Actually, if a moderator (which Major Tyler is, as am I) tells you that you are being disrespectful then your opinion is not what counts, I'm afraid. You agreed to abide by our rules when you joined this forum, and one of those rules involves being respectful to the actors on the show. Clearly everyone has different ideas of what constitutes Respect, so the only way for that rule to mean anything is for the moderators to decide what is and isn't sufficiently respectful.

Talking about patting people's bums is not respectful. At least, not respectful according to the moderators' definition of the word.

You are entitled to post your opinion of the show, of the characters and of the actors, but only if you do so respectfully; and if a moderator sees a need to point out that you have been rude, then you have been rude. Sorry; but that's how it is.

Any questions, the place to ask is via PM.

Suzotchka
February 12th, 2007, 11:32 AM
Sam, on the other hand, never let these insecurities effect her leadership. When she felt insecure she didn't try to overcompensate for them...quite the opposite, she acknowledged (often openly) accepted them, and tried to overcome them. Also, Sam never needed to prove she was a strong woman, she just did her job and everyone knew.

I think that most of that is because of the military training she had to go through.

And as much as I love Sam Carter, I don't think she should be the leader of Atlantis. If they want to place her in Shep's position, I'd be okay with that. She's qualified for that. But not to lead an expedition and negotiate treaties (for food, for example).

I'm still going to wish that we get both (Weir & Carter) and they both get equal time. Unfortunately, I think I'm going to be disappointed.

FallenAngelII
February 12th, 2007, 11:33 AM
I don't think anyone is claiming that either Carter or Weir are perfect. Neither of them are. Both have made mistakes.

I'm kind of amused that you're dragging up an incident from The Other Side which was 6 years ago as your proof that Carter doesn't have the ability to lead. If there were a long string of similar incidents or if she still behaved in such a manner, your argument might have some merit. But if that one incident somehow proved her inability to lead, then Jack would have to be disqualified too, and even more so because he wasn't even willing to listen to Daniel's objections.

Sam has learned though over the years and isn't quite as trusting as she used to be. She gives people the benefit of the doubt but doesn't fully trust them until they've proven themselves trustworthy. Just like she did with Corso in Forsaken and the Rand Protectorate in Icon. She's not perfect and she does make the wrong call sometimes...just like everyone else.
"The Other Side" incident is the only one in the past 10 years besides the Aschen-incident where Sam had to touch anything remotely politic, which kinda proves my point that she doesn't have the political experience needed.

Major Tyler: Are you saying men aren't threatened by women in high positions? There's a reason (a ridiculous one, though) why successful women often have problems finding men. I wouldn't call it as much insecurity as knowing what's going on around her and possibly paranoia.

Because are you arguing that they didn't go behind her back in the events leading up to "First Strike" and that the military isn't dying to take over? Or that women in high positions are really common and none of them ever suffer from jealousy from men just for being women in high positions?

Still doesn't change the fact that you have yet to point out how Sam qualifies to lead the expedition. You can prove that Elizabeth is the new Space Hitler for all I care. It'd just prove that Elizabeth should be switched out for a new leader. But you still need to prove how Sam qualifies to lead the expedition.

Major Tyler
February 12th, 2007, 11:35 AM
"Never"? What about CotG, and that line about "reproductive organs"? Seemed overcompensating to me. Granted, that was in the very first episode, and you could argue she's come a long way since then. But I can remember Sam having insecurities about her leadership as recently as Zero Hour (S8). Granted, that bout of insecurity wasn't explicitly linked to her being a woman.I never said Sam did not feel insecure, I was talking about how she dealt with that insecurity. Regarding the CotG comment, I though she was just being kinda silly. I think it was a more "nip this in the bud" attempt, rather than a manifestation of insecurity.

As for "Zero Hour," yes, she was clearly insecure, but she dealt with it by talking about it with her friends/superiors, and tried to work it out. She didn't attempt to hide them or steamroll them...she excised them at the source. That was the point I was illustrating.

FallenAngelII
February 12th, 2007, 12:04 PM
If we're gonna talk insecurities, let's take the whole Pete-debacle (or Sam's personal life in general). Setting the fact that anyone Sam gets involved with almost invarible dies aside, there was the whole Pete-debacle.

She strung him along while still carrying a torch for Jack, a torch so strong she was apparentely incapable of falling in love with Pete, yet she strung him along for quite some time.

In the end, she finally guzzied up and told him, but only after her dying father told her to. And she still didn't have to guts to at least tell Jack about her feelings.

Uber
February 12th, 2007, 12:09 PM
"The Other Side" incident is the only one in the past 10 years besides the Aschen-incident where Sam had to touch anything remotely politic, which kinda proves my point that she doesn't have the political experience needed.Perhaps I need a clearer understanding of what you mean by "remotely politic" then because I think we've had other examples of Carter working with other peoples as well as negotiating treaties and agreements.

She did what she had to to help smooth over relations with the Shavadai. She used Narim's interest in her to bridge the gap between the people of the SGC and the Tollan. It was because of Sam that the SGC made contact with the Tok'ra. She was also the one who negotiated on behalf of earth with the Salish for access to their trinium. She outted the Aschen in such a way that they weren't aware of it until after it happened. She isn't intimidated by the politically powerful and without flinching, stares down those who have the power to ruin her career or her life. She's allied herself with people and organizations she dislikes strongly for the greater good of completing the mission.

And let's not forget she got Weir to let her and Teal'c rescue Jack in New Order, using strong negotiating tactics to accomplish her goal...and Liz respected her for it.

So while "politicking" isn't the first item in her resume, she knows enough to hold her own. But my guess is that for anything truly substantive, like opening talks with potential allies, she'd do what Liz did and have people work with her to take care of that kind of thing.

Night Spring
February 12th, 2007, 12:21 PM
As for "Zero Hour," yes, she was clearly insecure, but she dealt with it by talking about it with her friends/superiors, and tried to work it out. She didn't attempt to hide them or steamroll them...she excised them at the source. That was the point I was illustrating.
And in First Strike, couldn't Weir be working it out by talking things over with Teyla, a trusted and close friend? Not sure what you are thinking about when you say "hide them or steamroll them," but I guess what I'm saying is that I don't see any evidence to see that Carter will be any better than Weir as leader of Atlantis. Different, yes, given they have different personalities and background, but I haven't seen anything that convinces me that one is more qualified to lead than the other. Now, someone like General Hammond, for example, I'd say he trumps Sam, Weir, and for that matter, Jack, in his leadership abilities. Or maybe I should come right out and say that DSD has the gravitas to stand there and say "Welcome home, team" and impart enough presence in that few seconds that there is no doubt *he* is in charge here. Not even RDA was able to quite pull that off, much less AT, TH, JF... Actually, the only cast member in both SG-1 and Atlantis that has even a remote chance of being able to pull that off is DH. But he'd have to play a character that isn't Rodney McKay. :p

Major Tyler
February 12th, 2007, 12:23 PM
If we're gonna talk insecurities, let's take the whole Pete-debacle (or Sam's personal life in general). Setting the fact that anyone Sam gets involved with almost invarible dies aside, there was the whole Pete-debacle.

She strung him along while still carrying a torch for Jack, a torch so strong she was apparentely incapable of falling in love with Pete, yet she strung him along for quite some time.

In the end, she finally guzzied up and told him, but only after her dying father told her to. And she still didn't have to guts to at least tell Jack about her feelings.These are personal insecurities that in no why affect her leadership or effectiveness in the field. Lots of really successful and competent people have messed up personal lives...trust me. :P
... I guess what I'm saying is that I don't see any evidence to see that Carter will be any better than Weir as leader of Atlantis.My point is that I think Sam will be a better leader because she won't be plagued by the same insecurities that Weir deals with, and those insecurities Sam does have, she deals with much more effectively than Weir.

Night Spring
February 12th, 2007, 12:35 PM
My point is that I think Sam will be a better leader because she won't be plagued by the same insecurities that Weir deals with, and those insecurities Sam does have, she deals with much more effectively than Weir.
And I'm thinking that even if Sam doesn't have insecurities now, the writers will likely give her some if she does become leader of Atlantis, since they seem to think that characters dealing with insecurities make for effective drama. ;)

Major Tyler
February 12th, 2007, 12:45 PM
And I'm thinking that even if Sam doesn't have insecurities now, the writers will likely give her some if she does become leader of Atlantis, since they seem to think that characters dealing with insecurities make for effective drama. ;)As long as they don't make Sam do anything that's out of her established character, that should be fine. I'm sure she'd have her own adjustment period.

It's been great debating with you, by the way. You discuss your opinion without getting defensive or combative, and it's really refreshing. :)

FallenAngelII
February 12th, 2007, 11:32 PM
She did what she had to to help smooth over relations with the Shavadai.
Actually, she won a duel of life and death. I wouldn't call that political negotiations.


She used Narim's interest in her to bridge the gap between the people of the SGC and the Tollan.
Oh yeah, what a great leader, using the opposite sex's interest in her. Anyway, it's not like the gap was bridged. They just helped the Tollan escape and then were on friendly terms afterwards (but that wasn't entirely thanks to Sam. They did do a lot of other things afterwards)


It was because of Sam that the SGC made contact with the Tok'ra.
Pure coincidence. She had Jolinar enter her out of emergency. No politics involved.


She was also the one who negotiated on behalf of earth with the Salish for access to their trinium.
I still haven't seen this one for reasons unknown. I've lost the disc it's on. But I'll give you this one if it's true.


She outted the Aschen in such a way that they weren't aware of it until after it happened.
Not political negotiation. Trickery against an enemy. John's done it tons of times. Doesn't mean he'd make a good politician.


She isn't intimidated by the politically powerful and without flinching, stares down those who have the power to ruin her career or her life. She's allied herself with people and organizations she dislikes strongly for the greater good of completing the mission.
Still doesn't give her the political experience needed.

RealmOfX
February 13th, 2007, 03:59 AM
<snip>
Still doesn't give her the political experience needed.

You keep saying politics - could you please explain what you mean by that and how it relates to the position of leader of an outer space scientific and military expedition. I'm not sure if you are interchanging the words negotiator and politician and I would just like a bit more clarification of what you mean. Thanks.

Gen_J_O'Neill
February 13th, 2007, 04:36 AM
^ Agreed, I'd also like to know!

I think Carter would be a great fit for leader of Atlantis. Sure she has her insecurities and has made mistakes in the past but so has Weir. People have been saying that she doesn't have the leadership experience to head up a place like Atlantis but are we forgetting that she headed up R&D at Area 51 (In other words, she was in charge). Area 51 couldn't be more like Atlantis, researching alien tech and developing earth built versions.

Also, how long has it been since we have seen Weir do some negotiating that another person couldn't have done! I mean you look back to s1 when they first met the Genii. She sent sheppard out to negotiate for food, but wasn't that part of the reason she was there, to negotiate!

Anyway, just my 2 cents worth! I don't have anything against Weir and I hope they keep her around but in the even that it does happen, I believe yes, Carter could replace Weir!

immhotep
February 13th, 2007, 05:42 AM
And in First Strike, couldn't Weir be working it out by talking things over with Teyla, a trusted and close friend? Not sure what you are thinking about when you say "hide them or steamroll them," but I guess what I'm saying is that I don't see any evidence to see that Carter will be any better than Weir as leader of Atlantis. Different, yes, given they have different personalities and background, but I haven't seen anything that convinces me that one is more qualified to lead than the other. Now, someone like General Hammond, for example, I'd say he trumps Sam, Weir, and for that matter, Jack, in his leadership abilities. Or maybe I should come right out and say that DSD has the gravitas to stand there and say "Welcome home, team" and impart enough presence in that few seconds that there is no doubt *he* is in charge here. Not even RDA was able to quite pull that off, much less AT, TH, JF... Actually, the only cast member in both SG-1 and Atlantis that has even a remote chance of being able to pull that off is DH. But he'd have to play a character that isn't Rodney McKay. :p
i agree with this an awful lot, i think one of the great things about the first 7 years of stargate was General Hammonds solid and commanding presense, and with RDA and then Landry i think we have lost a key part of the show, the leaders have become SG1 not the general and i think that General hammond would impart that on atlantis perfectly if the promethius unbound mission had worked out. I dont think that Hammond will return for SGA but i think as a character, he would have been perfect as the military leader.
For the record i always wanted Daniel and Carter to move to atlantis, but going back to Carter, i think she would be an amazing character over there once we got used to her and her leadership abilities shouldnt be in question, she is a military commander than could, if she wasnt a brilliant scientist and on SG1 be commanding thousands of troops in Iraq. Weir hasnt ever led before the lost city and if were talking about experience then Carter has alot of experience in dealing with things and has always taken charge when things got rough at the SGC and sorted things out, mainly because she was the only one capable of doing that alot of the time. She also has dealings with Alien and know how they opperate. If you think about it, a leader should be judged on thier reaction to the unknown, how they dealt with the situations presented to them; not just on the experience and qualifications they have.
For Carter she is an established military officer which has spent 10 years fighting and leading(in some way) Earth in a war against offworld enemies, dealing with technology way over her head and saving the world. She might not have been "in charge" but that didnt mean she cant lead because everyone look at her for an answer and thats one of major presures of being a leader. A pressure she is used to and can cope with much better IMO than weir.
Weir hasnt been a bad leader of the expedition, shes kept things running, but IMO she hasnt really made a difference. The expedition hasnt benefitted from her being there whatsoever, Mkcay could have led the science contingent and basicly has done for along time. And sheppard has been leading the military...so if this is a question of what could carter bring that weir cant, then carter can bring an aweful lot.

FallenAngelII
February 13th, 2007, 07:53 AM
You keep saying politics - could you please explain what you mean by that and how it relates to the position of leader of an outer space scientific and military expedition. I'm not sure if you are interchanging the words negotiator and politician and I would just like a bit more clarification of what you mean. Thanks.
I'm kinda using the words politician, negotiator and diplomat interchangably. Now Sam's a lot of things. But those three, she is not.

Gen_J_O'Neill: Area 51 is not like Atlantis. Being in charge of Atlantis is doing a lot more things than leading a scientific expedition and overseeing scientific exploration and the study of alien technology. That's what Rodney, head of the Science department does.

If you want to argue that Sam's qualified for Rodney's position, be my guest (because she is). But being in charge of Atlantis is so much more. And just because we haven't seen it doesn't mean it doesn't happen.

How often did general Hammond do anything leader-y throughout his 7 years on the show, for instance? Did it happen in every single episode? How boring wouldn't Atlantis be if every 3 episodes dealt with Elizabeth negotiating treaties? Just because we don't see it happen doesn't mean it doesn't happen.

immhotep
February 13th, 2007, 08:46 AM
Hammond did leader like things all the time, how many times did he phone the president or order people about and make decisions. i think Hammonds record in 7 years speaks for itself.

FallenAngelII
February 13th, 2007, 09:28 AM
Still doesn't change the fact that simply pointing out the flaws in Elizabeth's leadership does not prove that Sam is fit to lead the Atlantis expedition, in any way. It's like pointing out George W. Bush massive mistakes through the years to "prove" that pretty much anyone can become president.

Sam still lacks the numerous qualities needed to lead Atlantis.

Major Tyler
February 13th, 2007, 09:33 AM
I'm kinda using the words politician, negotiator and diplomat interchangably. Now Sam's a lot of things. But those three, she is not.How many times has Weir needed to be a politician/negotiator/diplomat in her capacity as Expedition Leader? The only time I can remember is when she negotiated for the nukes from the Genii. Every other time she tells other people to negotiate for her, so it's not like she's overseeing them.

Keep Weir on as chief diplomat if Carter isn't as qualified in this one relatively superfluous way...I already suggested making her Earth Ambassador to the Pegasus Galaxy. Sam can do everything else.

FallenAngelII
February 13th, 2007, 09:42 AM
Why are people so deadset on Sam taking over Atlantis? Do you realize what that'll do? Not only will she bump a character off the show (because we all know how well the PTB can handle sidelined characters), she'll also leave all that she is.

No longer will she go offworld (how often have the leaders of the expeditions gone off-world?) and no longer will she be in charge of the science department (because of her new role as leader of the expedition).

Sam would essentially become Weir2. She'd become a slightly modified version of Elizabeth. Do you want that?

Or do you want a totally unrealistic leader who juggles leading the expedition with running around off-world and/or leading a science department of her own?

the dancer of spaz
February 13th, 2007, 09:46 AM
You know, TPTB wouldn't make Sam Carter leader of SG-1, so why should I believe they're going to make her leader of Atlantis?

Sorry, I'm a Sam fan (AND a Weir fan - yes it is possible to like both characters) and it still irks me that she didn't get to be the leader of SG-1.

That's a good point, Suzotcha. There's really no proof as of yet that they're willing to go that route. There are logical suggestions and theories, but beyond that, we have only their track record to consider.

I don't think Carter could replace Weir. I don't think characters can ever be replaced (look at Jonas/Daniel, Jack/Cameron, Ford/Ronon, Sam/Vala to some extent). Can Carter take on the role? Possibly. It'd be interesting to see. I think she has a lot of pull with the IOA, and could go to bat for Atlantis when they need it.

I just hope Weir factors into the storylines in some way, if she doesn't get her own arc. If she's struggling with healing or with the government, I hope we see it. The fact that JM has said that they're not talking about episodes could be a cryptic way of saying, "We're not telling people," but I am worried that we're not going to see a proper ending to that character. And, if that's the case, that'll be such a waste of potential conflict and further development for Weir.

Suzotchka
February 13th, 2007, 09:50 AM
Wouldn't it make more sense for Sam to take over for John and then have John take over for Weir? (since John has been on Atlantis longer)? But that would mean he wouldn't be able to go off-world, right?

Not that I think that scenario should (or will) happen. But I would think it would be more likely than having Sam come in and take over for Weir.

Either way, I don't want to see Weir's presence reduced. I like the perspective that a civilian brings to the position.

the dancer of spaz
February 13th, 2007, 09:53 AM
Wouldn't it make more sense for Sam to take over for John and then have John take over for Weir? (since John has been on Atlantis longer)? But that would mean he wouldn't be able to go off-world, right?

Not that I think that scenario should (or will) happen. But I would think it would be more likely than having Sam come in and take over for Weir.

Either way, I don't want to see Weir's presence reduced. I like the perspective that a civilian brings to the position.

I think they could run into a problem with the chain of command. Something about time in grade, I think - Sam's been a lt. colonel longer than Sheppard, right?

I understand the issues they're facing with militarizing the base, and it makes sense. But I'd still like to see Weir there in some (respected) capacity, where she's contributing to the missions.

Suzotchka
February 13th, 2007, 09:55 AM
I think they could run into a problem with the chain of command. Something about time in grade, I think - Sam's been a lt. colonel longer than Sheppard, right?

You're right, I forgot about that. Sam does have more time in grade than John.

J. Stone
February 13th, 2007, 11:25 AM
" Could Carter replace Weir? "

Yes.

Falcon Horus
February 13th, 2007, 12:32 PM
" Could Carter replace Weir? "

Yes.

Is there a why-part in your answer somewhere?

FallenAngelII
February 13th, 2007, 11:27 PM
I have to once again bring this up:
Making Sam the leader of the expedition would be a huge mistake plotwise. Let's take a look at this Perfect Woman:

Great soldier, great scientist. What does this translate to? John and Rodney. As she won't be a main character, she'll be John and Rodney Light on Atlantis.

But wait! Let's make her the leader of Atlantis! What will this do? Either she'll become Elizabeth Light or she'll be all three things, Liz Lite, John Lite and Rodney Lite, running around running the military, running science projects and leading the city.

Can you see how stupid that would be?

So unless you want Sam to forsake her previous roles as soldier and scientist, they cannot make her leader of the city unless you want a leader who's also a soldier and a scientist, all at the same time!

It'd be kind of redundant. What would Sam's role be? To pull rank to shoot down John's ideas? To further complicate scientific matters by now not only having Rodney and Radek around but also Sam herself, all arguing about what's the best thing to do? Not to mention that since Sam's the perfect woman who's never wrong, Rodney and Radek would have to be dumbed down considerably, always being wrong (or just much slower at arriving at the right solution) in order for Sam to be right.

RealmOfX
February 14th, 2007, 01:37 AM
I have to once again bring this up:

Making Sam the leader of the expedition would be a huge mistake plotwise. Let's take a look at this Perfect Woman:

Great soldier, great scientist. What does this translate to? John and Rodney. As she won't be a main character, she'll be John and Rodney Light on Atlantis.

But wait! Let's make her the leader of Atlantis! What will this do? Either she'll become Elizabeth Light or she'll be all three things, Liz Lite, John Lite and Rodney Lite, running around running the military, running science projects and leading the city.

Can you see how stupid that would be?

So unless you want Sam to forsake her previous roles as soldier and scientist, they cannot make her leader of the city unless you want a leader who's also a soldier and a scientist, all at the same time!

It'd be kind of redundant. What would Sam's role be? To pull rank to shoot down John's ideas? To further complicate scientific matters by now not only having Rodney and Radek around but also Sam herself, all arguing about what's the best thing to do? Not to mention that since Sam's the perfect woman who's never wrong, Rodney and Radek would have to be dumbed down considerably, always being wrong (or just much slower at arriving at the right solution) in order for Sam to be right.

You seem to have a rather limited idea of what a leader of an expedition does and not being a main character does not automatically make Sam a "light version" of all those characters you mentioned.

Actually if they make Sam the leader of the expedition then guess what? Her role is going to be Sam the leader and she'll have to do what a leader does which is ensure that she gets the best people available for the jobs required and make sure that they work together to achieve their objectives. On a daily basis it might mean she has to concentrate on bickering scientists, or plan out missions or do reports or make sure the food supply is taken care or help facilitate solving any number of problems that arise or a myriad of any other tasks. She is a high ranking military officer and is trained to do this.

I really do not know why some people think that if one person is right then everyone else has to be wrong. Gee, that's really a tad childish isn't it? and only one person is allowed to do X or Y? For an expedition to work or any large team to work you need a cross section of people and overlapping skills, skill redundancy is a keyword when forming good teams. You need more than one person capable of doing X skill. Having multi skilled leaders is a bonus because, among other things, they understand what their people are going through, require less time when being briefed on certain subjects, quickly see the ramifications of choosing to take X decision over Y decision.

For that group of people that think Sam is perfect and see it as a bad thing perhaps you should go talk to another group that think she is anything but that. And seriously, what is the matter with people being good at what they do? Why is it a black mark for some people? Other than apparently p***ing off people who aren't that good and have inferiority complexes?
(these are serious questions and I am not implying that anyone here has an inferiority complex, just that in the real world this is one reason why some people thinks being perfect is bad, I really would like to know of other reasons).


Can Sam do the job of leader of the Atlantis expedition? Sure.
Could TPTB make her the leader? It's a possibility.
Who do I want to lead the Atlantis expedition? I'm perfectly happy with Elizabeth to remain in the position. IF TPTB choose to remove Elizabeth from that position then I hope that they make it realistic with the changeover and the impact on the other characters. If they don't, I'll be using that spot I have reserved on the Anti S4 thread.
What do I want from S4? For TPTB to address their existing problems with the show. Unless they fix those problems no amount of cast changes is going to make a difference, it'll probably make things worse. TPTB need to learn how to write for more than two characters at a time, they need to learn how to effectively write female characters, they need to develop ALL of their characters and stop sacrificing characters to make a dumb plot point move forward.

FallenAngelII
February 14th, 2007, 01:42 AM
Did I deny that any of those things would be part of her duties as leader of the expedition? She just wouldn't go off-world (often) and not preside over stuff like scientific research and exploration of the city.

Why not? Because that's how the leaders of the SGC and Atlantis have been in the past. Unless they're gonna make Sam a super-leader...

Sam will be Light versions of John, Rodney and possibly Elizabeth. You know why? Because she's a lot like them all (if you're gonna make her lead Atlantis)!

She's a soldier, she's a scientist and according to you, she's an expedition leader!

She's also going to be a Recurring Character. Rodney and John will still be Main Characters. And you cannot have a Recurring character overshadow a Main Character in their field.

Therefore, Sam will not be allowed to take over as head of the science department nor will she be the one who'll always save the day when technology goes awry.

She will also not take over as head of the military department nor will she be the one to lead the more important missions.

She will, in effect, become light versions of John and Rodney, a hybrid soldier-scientist. Anything else would be stupid. You don't bring in a new character, a recurring one at that, and have them outshine already established characters since 3 years in their own fields of specialty.

Elizabeth is being demoted to recurring, so it's possible Sam will take over (and it wouldn't be quite as stupid if she did). But they can't have her running around making the big scientific breakthroughs and being the one to come up with the right solutions (though I do not doubt she'll often be of help and sometimes even be the one to solve the problem at hand) nor can she lead the military of Atlantis on missions when John's around readily doing it.

Not to mention that they have to keep her her own character. So far, Sam's been a hybrid between John and Rodney (if you wanna compare). It wasn't much of a problem when they were on different shows. But now they'll be on the same show. There's a reason why they don't have all-scientist teams (with some of them also being soldiers). It'd make for a very boring show.

It's fine to bring Sam along and integrate her. It's not OK to have her replace already existing characters and slowly taking over the show, which she would do if she suddenly had a hand in everything; leading the expedition, running the military and taking over the science department. I mean, all she needs to do then is to get a medical degree, kick Keller off the force and it'll be Stargate: Samantha - with a Lieutenant Colonel Samantha Carter being the one and only senior staff member.

RealmOfX
February 14th, 2007, 03:19 AM
Did I deny that any of those things would be part of her duties as leader of the expedition? She just wouldn't go off-world (often) and not preside over stuff like scientific research and exploration of the city.

Why not? Because that's how the leaders of the SGC and Atlantis have been in the past. Unless they're gonna make Sam a super-leader...

Sam will be Light versions of John, Rodney and possibly Elizabeth. You know why? Because she's a lot like them all (if you're gonna make her lead Atlantis)!

She's a soldier, she's a scientist and according to you, she's an expedition leader!

She's also going to be a Recurring Character. Rodney and John will still be Main Characters. And you cannot have a Recurring character overshadow a Main Character in their field.

Therefore, Sam will not be allowed to take over as head of the science department nor will she be the one who'll always save the day when technology goes awry.

She will also not take over as head of the military department nor will she be the one to lead the more important missions.

She will, in effect, become light versions of John and Rodney, a hybrid soldier-scientist. Anything else would be stupid. You don't bring in a new character, a recurring one at that, and have them outshine already established characters since 3 years in their own fields of specialty.

Elizabeth is being demoted to recurring, so it's possible Sam will take over (and it wouldn't be quite as stupid if she did). But they can't have her running around making the big scientific breakthroughs and being the one to come up with the right solutions (though I do not doubt she'll often be of help and sometimes even be the one to solve the problem at hand) nor can she lead the military of Atlantis on missions when John's around readily doing it.

Not to mention that they have to keep her her own character. So far, Sam's been a hybrid between John and Rodney (if you wanna compare). It wasn't much of a problem when they were on different shows. But now they'll be on the same show. There's a reason why they don't have all-scientist teams (with some of them also being soldiers). It'd make for a very boring show.

We seem to be talking at cross purposes.

You asked what role Sam would have as leader and I answered that her role would be leader and wrote a little of what that would entail. Just because some character has part of a skillset of another character does not automatically make them a "light version" of another character.

Of course Sam is a soldier, she's a scientist too and if she is made leader of the expedition then she's going to be an expedition leader. Why do you seem to have a problem with that? The military expect their officers to be leaders, they train them to be leaders and be multi skilled. In fact someone with Sam's skills would be a prime candidate for the position of leader of a military and scientific expedition.

I haven't voiced any expectation of Sam to be anything other than expedition leader IF that is what TPTB decide to do. That is only one possibility for the character. You seem to be the one bringing up her being the science department head and going off world on teams and being expedition leader. I haven't noticed anyone else say that they want it either.

"She will also not take over as head of the military department" - actually yes she should IF she is appointed expedition leader. The military is rather finnicky about chain of command.

Sam is a hybrid of John and Rodney :rolleyes: Sam is nothing like a combination of the pair, the only commonality is that she is a soldier and a scientist other than that she is uniquely Sam and has very different characteristics from Shepherd and McKay. Do all three have some overlapping skills? Yep, sure. That happens when you put together a good team.



It's fine to bring Sam along and integrate her. It's not OK to have her replace already existing characters and slowly taking over the show, which she would do if she suddenly had a hand in everything; leading the expedition, running the military and taking over the science department. I mean, all she needs to do then is to get a medical degree, kick Keller off the force and it'll be Stargate: Samantha - with a Lieutenant Colonel Samantha Carter being the one and only senior staff member.

I haven't seen any one propose this for Sam so why do you keep objecting to it like someone has asked for it?

Like I said previously, I prefer Weir to lead the Atlantis expedition. However just because my preference is for Weir, it doesn't mean I can't see how Lt. Colonel Carter could replace her. I see it as one of several possibilities for Sam on Atlantis, just not my preferrred one.

DrGemini2405
February 14th, 2007, 03:35 AM
dearie me, this has been discussed in so many places already! (not complaining, btw)

I don't think Sam'll replace Weir -- there are so many reasons.

Atlantis is an international expedition -- to have a USAF officer in charge would symbolise US supremacy, and that would make for rather bad diplomatic relations with the other parties represented in the expedition
She's the same rank as Shep, and despite Cam officially being her CO on SG-1, being in command of a facility may not be suitable for a Lt. Col
Some have suggested that Sam has crappy leadership skills -- personally, I think she would be alright if given a chance, but her character would be wasted if she was essentially a 'suit' (ok, I know Weir sees action but you know what I mean)
Her field of expertise is in Physics, specifically Astrophys., and she has already shown us that she operate a galaxy class ship (plus the numerous other dealies she's flown, fixed and whatnot over the years)I hope the rumours about a ship are true -- I've heard that she can't be in charge of the Daedalus because she's not a full Colonel, but surely there'll be some exception for her, what with a decade of saving Earth and the galaxy under her belt. Ok, they probably won't, what with the IOA being a fine and dandy bunch.

I don't think that she'll be just be another scientist 'cos there are tonnes of them already: McKay (Phys.), Zelenka (Phys., I think), a whole bunch of others, Beckett (Med.), Heightmeyer (Psych.), Brown (Botan.)... etc.

Hey, maybe there's going to be another ship!

:sam:

Major Tyler
February 14th, 2007, 04:00 AM
Atlantis is an international expedition -- to have a USAF officer in charge would symbolise US supremacy...Is anyone really denying U.S. supremacy at this point? In the context of the Stargate Universe, the U.S. runs the Stargate Program, builds intergalactic starships, and does battle with aliens on a regular basis. Everyone else just...complains.

ForeverSg1
February 14th, 2007, 04:47 AM
Could she replace Weir? Not unless she suddenly learns five languages, and then adds Ancient to that. And not unless she has some secret history as a diplomat/negotiator we don't know about.

Carter could replace Shep because of her military background or McKay because of her scientific background, but TPTB wouldn't dare mess with their golden boys. That's why she's muscling in on Weir's position, no matter how unqualified she is for the job.

I admit I'm not a huge authority on Atlantis, but I disagree with you here.
Sam does not need to speak five languages or become a diplomat/negotiator to be put in charge of the city. Controlling the city is a not a responsibility that requires someone to be a translator just as being a mayor or the President of a country doesn't require it. In most cases you would hire qualified people to assist you and I'm sure Atlantis has more than enough people there who are quite capable of translating/speaking a multitude of languages.

Sheppard could not and would not be placed in charge of the city because then he would lose the ability to lead expeditions. From what little I have seen, the real problem at times seems to be getting the scientific teams and the military teams of Atlantis to see eye to eye and in my opinion Carter is someone who is perfectly suited in understanding the benefits and limitations of both sides.

While I completely understand the loss that fans may be feeling regarding Weir becoming a recurring character on the show and while I do not understand or agree with TPTBs' decision to make these changes, I do believe that if written properly Sam could be a beneficial addition to the Atlantis cast.

RealmOfX
February 14th, 2007, 05:12 AM
dearie me, this has been discussed in so many places already! (not complaining, btw)

I don't think Sam'll replace Weir -- there are so many reasons.

Atlantis is an international expedition -- to have a USAF officer in charge would symbolise US supremacy, and that would make for rather bad diplomatic relations with the other parties represented in the expedition
She's the same rank as Shep, and despite Cam officially being her CO on SG-1, being in command of a facility may not be suitable for a Lt. Col
Some have suggested that Sam has crappy leadership skills -- personally, I think she would be alright if given a chance, but her character would be wasted if she was essentially a 'suit' (ok, I know Weir sees action but you know what I mean)
Her field of expertise is in Physics, specifically Astrophys., and she has already shown us that she operate a galaxy class ship (plus the numerous other dealies she's flown, fixed and whatnot over the years)I hope the rumours about a ship are true -- I've heard that she can't be in charge of the Daedalus because she's not a full Colonel, but surely there'll be some exception for her, what with a decade of saving Earth and the galaxy under her belt. Ok, they probably won't, what with the IOA being a fine and dandy bunch.

I don't think that she'll be just be another scientist 'cos there are tonnes of them already: McKay (Phys.), Zelenka (Phys., I think), a whole bunch of others, Beckett (Med.), Heightmeyer (Psych.), Brown (Botan.)... etc.

Hey, maybe there's going to be another ship!

:sam:

I'm not disagreeing with you but I will pick on a couple of your points :D

1. Atlantis is under civilian control however the military side is under US command. If they decide to militarise the expedition then the US is going to be in charge and the IOA know it so I do not see it as being a problem.

2. Shep and Cam's rank have nothing to do with the possibility of Sam being given command. Having a Lt. Colonel in command of a few hundred people is not unusual so are you talking in general or the Atlantis expedition in particular?
BTW Cam is not Sam's CO, actually they have never stated what Sam's position is, only that Cam can't give her orders therefore not CO.

Also there is no stated requirement that to command a space vessel of the Daedalus class that you have to be a Colonel. That was just some fans speculating and seeing as Commanders in the navy are given control of ships I really don't see why Lt Colonels couldn't command a space ship.


At first I didn't think that TPTB would give Sam command of the expedition because that would mean that they would have to militarise the expedition and they made such a fuss of making it a civilian controlled expedition in the first place. If they do that then the IOA go back to having a shaky control of things llike with the SGC. Legally they cannot give the military commands, that has to be done through the chain of command and the only hope of doing that is through political manoeuvring.

I can however see that given the threatening situation in the Pegasus galaxy that militarising the expedition is an option therefore giving Sam command is also an option. I guess it really depends on what TPTB envisage as the direction of the series, if they think jazzing up the show with more fighting and blowing things up is going to grab more viewers then I can see that as a reason for militarising the expedition.

At the moment I don't know which way they will jump, I'm just hoping that whatever they decide that they do it realistically.

bean4574
February 14th, 2007, 05:52 AM
Please do not replace Weir!!!! No one loves Amanda more than I but she has had ten years on SG-1, and yes I would love to see more of her but that is not the reason that I love Atlantis. Elizabeth is the emotional and moral compass for the show and no matter how much we all love Carter she can not bring that to the show the same way. I am really happy that Carter is going to be on the fourth season but PLEASE DO NOT HAVE HER REPLACE ELIZABETH!!!!!!!!! She is the reason I watch the show, so don't ruin this one, I beg you!!

Major Tyler
February 14th, 2007, 05:54 AM
Please do not replace Weir!!!! No one loves Amanda more than I but she has had ten years on SG-1, and yes I would love to see more of her but that is not the reason that I love Atlantis. Elizabeth is the emotional and moral compass for the show and no matter how much we all love Carter she can not bring that to the show the same way. I am really happy that Carter is going to be on the fourth season but PLEASE DO NOT HAVE HER REPLACE ELIZABETH!!!!!!!!! She is the reason I watch the show, so don't ruin this one, I beg you!!Unfortunately (or fortunately, depending on your point of view) the decision does not rest with anyone in this thread.

Suzotchka
February 14th, 2007, 07:46 AM
Quick question - can Sam still be in command of her own shipand run Atlantis?

Almighty_Wookie
February 14th, 2007, 08:06 AM
Big spoilers below if it's true, and I mean huge:

There are rumors that Weir is critically injured and can't resume command at least in the first few episodes of Season Four, which would explain why she's recurring, and possibly not in command.

Plus seeing as Atlantis is in space and they are more or less at war with the Asurans they are going to need a Military commander rather than a civillian, plus if Carter does take over she has a lot more experience than the Atlantis characters even as experienced as they are.

No idea how accurate any of that is, and I guess until we see season four we don't know what will happen, I'm just glad Stargate is still on tv for another year at least.

prion
February 14th, 2007, 09:00 AM
Is anyone really denying U.S. supremacy at this point? In the context of the Stargate Universe, the U.S. runs the Stargate Program, builds intergalactic starships, and does battle with aliens on a regular basis. Everyone else just...complains.

well, the writers sneak in a few Canadians, but consistently portray Russians as idiots or worse. Yes, it's a very U.s.-oriented show with the U.S. in charge of everything. Just waiting for the Asgard to go "okay, we've built you all these ships, now cough up the cash." ;)

But back to carter and weir... the only reason I think they'd do put carter in charge is because the writers Do love Carter (they've stated it) and the writers don't always use common sense and logic.

immhotep
February 14th, 2007, 09:04 AM
Atlantis is a ship now ;) so she could command that.
She could be both commander of the Oddesey, which is without argument the ship she is coming in, its the only ship we have that has a ZPM to replace atlantis, can get there fast enough, has no current commanding officer and a ship which carter has history with and has already served a stint on.
I think she could be in charge of atlantis as well, the Apollo has replaced the deadalus and the pegasus main ship but the Oddesey can back it up. Im sure Carter could use one as a base for when she goes offworld and fights, making it the main defensive ship of atlantis and its personel perhaps ocnducting research on technology directly giving the Oddesey upgrades; and she coudl still head up atlantis.

Suzotchka
February 14th, 2007, 09:20 AM
Atlantis is a ship now ;) so she could command that.

That's true. All I've heard is that Carter will be in command of her own ship. I guess that 'ship' could be Atlantis.

The thing is, the character of Sam Carter has been around for approx. 10 years, so of course Sam would have more experience than Weir (in certain matters). Maybe we should be comparing season 3 Carter to seaeson 3 Weir?? :S

psychofilly
February 14th, 2007, 09:35 AM
Personally, I think Sam will be a ships captain, a la Caldwell and Ellis, though perhaps, she will be the captain of the Earth's first (purely) science vessel? Something they rush out to search & rescue Atlantis as soon as they get word that she's lost. Okay that's a stretch, but with AT's other commitments, I don't see her coming in and taking over anything.

I guess my one question is why does Sam have to be military? She could retire and be tapped by the IOA as someone with military and scientific expertise. If she becomes the head of the expedition, I'd expect that her military expertise would get put on the backburner except for dealing with John. With the demise of SG-1 there are a ton of directions that they can take her character, and not all of them involve her remaining in the military. Even if she does, from the talk I've heard, it sounds like she's going to remain an ancillary character. I don't think she will replace Weir, and I don't think she will "take over" for her either. Honestly, I think that John will step up (along with Teyla, we've been told she's getting an arc next year) and it will be a part of his and her growth arc for the show.

It feels like people are trying to make 2+2= lemons. The addition of Carter doesn't mean she's automatically taking over.

FallenAngelII
February 14th, 2007, 09:50 AM
You asked what role Sam would have as leader and I answered that her role would be leader and wrote a little of what that would entail. Just because some character has part of a skillset of another character does not automatically make them a "light version" of another character.
No I didn't. And when you have an ensemble show like Atlantis, you will either get a clone or a Light version. If Sam were to, for example, continue her role as a soldier, she'd either become a clone of John in that she's one of the main soldiers or she'd become a Light version in that she'd have less screen time and less important screen time than John.


Of course Sam is a soldier, she's a scientist too and if she is made leader of the expedition then she's going to be an expedition leader. Why do you seem to have a problem with that? The military expect their officers to be leaders, they train them to be leaders and be multi skilled. In fact someone with Sam's skills would be a prime candidate for the position of leader of a military and scientific expedition.
It's not a military expedition.


I haven't voiced any expectation of Sam to be anything other than expedition leader IF that is what TPTB decide to do. That is only one possibility for the character. You seem to be the one bringing up her being the science department head and going off world on teams and being expedition leader. I haven't noticed anyone else say that they want it either.
I'm talking about Sam's possible paths on Atlantis. I personally don't think she should move over. It's already a huge ensemble show they're having trouble keeping afloat. They killed off Carson because of their inability to give him good storylines, they are going to reduce Elizabeth's role after two seasons of being unable to write her and Teyla has become a wallflower. All Ronon ever does nowadays is grunt and be suspicious of everything and anything and always wanting to shoot first and never ask any questions.

And they bring in a new character (Keller) and then move over an old one?

Sam's possibilities on Atlantis:
* Taking over as expedition leader and thus losing the ability to lead a science department of her own or go off-world on missions
* Becoming John Light. Lead her own off-world team (or they could pull a Vala and insert her into SGA-1, I guess). She'd be that mighty indescructible soldier who always saves the day... only with less screen time and worse screen time than John.
* Becoming Rodney Light. She'll play an important role in the science department, possibly head her own department. She cannot outshine Rodney, though, so she'll have less and less good screen time compared to Rodney.
* Take over the show by outshining either John or Rodney (or if the PTB are feeling extra stupid: BOTH) in their fields.
* Become an entirely new character that does other things than be a soldier and a scientist.

Either way, she'll either take completely new paths and become a new Samantha (lead the expedition or just take new paths) or she'll take over (outshining people in their fields) or she'll become Light* Versions of already established characters.

Light Version = A character that possesses similar traits and whose role on the show is very similar to another character, but with less screen time and less important such.

It's reality. Atlantis is much more of an ensemble show than SG-1 is.


"She will also not take over as head of the military department" - actually yes she should IF she is appointed expedition leader. The military is rather finnicky about chain of command.
And the IOA is very finicky about it staying a civilian operation. They'll just have to promote John.


Sam is a hybrid of John and Rodney :rolleyes: Sam is nothing like a combination of the pair, the only commonality is that she is a soldier and a scientist other than that she is uniquely Sam and has very different characteristics from Shepherd and McKay. Do all three have some overlapping skills? Yep, sure. That happens when you put together a good team.
Read above.


I haven't seen any one propose this for Sam so why do you keep objecting to it like someone has asked for it?
Scroll back and visit threads other than this one. Plenty of people think she should become a main player either in the science department or take over as head of the military department.


Like I said previously, I prefer Weir to lead the Atlantis expedition. However just because my preference is for Weir, it doesn't mean I can't see how Lt. Colonel Carter could replace her. I see it as one of several possibilities for Sam on Atlantis, just not my preferrred one.
This has what to do with it? I can see it too. And?

immhotep
February 14th, 2007, 09:55 AM
But its a likely asumption, she is one of the only people who is not currently on Atlantis that has the clearence and expertise to run a stargate based project. She has on several occasions been in leadership positions, shes headed area 51, been in command of promethius, oddesey, hatak's, she was also in charge of the SGC while General Landry was up in the mountains with Mitchell. I dont think in the shows universe there is anyone to doubt her ability and no one could argue that there is a better expert on the stargate and all related material alien or human engineered. She has bene at the forefront of gate travel since before we even went through the gate for the frist time. In terms of expertise in both civilian and military matters relating to the gate program, there is no other person who has as much knowledge and experience as she does.


Scroll back and visit threads other than this one. Plenty of people think she should become a main player either in the science department or take over as head of the military department.
I have to admit that seperating soldier and scientist sam is going to be tricky, as commander of a ship she could work very, but on atlantis it would be harder, if she was in orbit doing her own thing and then checking up on what the others are doing, putting them right then it would work. Also FAII sam could outshine rodney daily and not have her brain hurt and is much smarter than sheppard could ever dream to become in military affairs.

FallenAngelII
February 14th, 2007, 10:15 AM
Don't you see the problem with Sam coming in and outshining John and/or Rodney in their fields?

Here's a new character who barges onto the show following the demise of a main character (Carson) and the sidelining of another (Elizabeth). It's bad enough so many changes are being made in such a short amount of time.

But Hell will break loose if Sam suddenly outshines John and/or Rodney at what they do. Not only if she barging into the show, forcing her way into being integrated, she's also taking over the show by outshining two senior staff members and original cast members in their fields.

How good will the show be if Sam's suddenly the one to come up with the brilliant solutions which save the day? Or if she's the one who comes up with brilliant strategies to save the day in a military way?

Not only that, in order for her to be the brilliant scientist or brilliant soldier, Rodney, John, Lorne and Radek will have to be dumbed down. Because why would Sam be the one to come up with the brilliant ideas? Because none of the above can do it (or at least not as fast as she can).

So not only will she barge into the show, take over and be the shining star, four characters, two of which original main characters, will be reduced and dumbed down.

Now imagine if she doesn't outshine John and Rodney. Then the Sam fans will complain because she'll be dumbed down.

The solution? Well, the "solution" would be to make her equal with John and Rodney to have them all alternate between saving the day and being the brilliant one. Which won't be a solution at all because you'll basically have a Soldier, a Scientist and a Soldier/Scientist shoulder the burden of saving the day.

This is why I believe it's a huge mistake to bring Sam over whatsoever.

psychofilly
February 14th, 2007, 10:25 AM
I think you aren't giving the writers enough credit. For one, Sam isn't "barging" in anywhere, or "taking over" or "outshining" anyone that we know of yet. That is simply an assumption. She could end up in command of the Midway Station and a fleet of ships for all we *know* about what Sam is going to be doing next year.

And Sam won't have to outshine anyone to be on Atlantis. You are making rather narrow assumptions based on some narrow options without seeing any of the possible positives. One of which is that while Torri might be getting "demoted" so to speak, that in no way means that Weir is. She might be injured/absent from the first few shows, giving John and his team some dramatic and hard choices to make, but we don't know if she'll step down after that, or still be in 6 to 12 episodes next year.

Sam may indeed just end up being the character that reminds the viewers that Earth is a part of the equation still and serving as a means to rescue Atlantis and then fade into the background.

We don't know yet. So I'm gonna reserve my doom and gloom until we do. Sorry FA, you aren't going to bludgeon me into a dither no matter how hard you beat the war drums.

Almighty_Wookie
February 14th, 2007, 10:32 AM
Has it occured to anyone that killing off Beckett and making Weir recurring may have been a choice before they decided to bring Carter over? Some execs decide on storylines years before they actually happen.
Characters die on television shows all the time, it keeps it real, it keeps it from going stale. I mean look at 24, they have killed off nearly everyone and it keeps getting better and better every series.
I was gutted when they killed off Doyle in 'Angel', but it made possibly one of the best episodes and heart-wrenching scenes in television.

psychofilly
February 14th, 2007, 10:43 AM
I don't think it's a coincidence that Torri's being dumped to recurring and Amanda's getting 14 episodes. There's such a thing as cause and effect.... they needed to make room. They're cutting Torri's time to do that. (IMO!)

I never said it was a coincidence, though in fact, it might be. AT was already under contract for another year, well before they knew SG-1 would be cancelled. It's my understanding that they would have to pay her whether they used or or not, so "cutting" Torri has nothing to do with Amanda because they would have been paying that money whetehr she was on SG1, SGA or at home with Olivia.

However, just about every decision made in TV comes back to money. Demoting Torri and getting rid of Carson and hiring a cheaper actress, certainly strikes me as budget control, so I'm not saying money doesn't come into it, but I don't lay the blame at Tapping's feet.

Also, as I've said before Weir's time getting cut does not mean she'll be dumped or gone. It simply means we'll see less of her, and frankly if having her less means her time will count for more when she is on screen, then I am all for it. I also wouldn't be suprised if PMG lands on his feet as a lead in another Sci-Fi show *cough*Starcrossed*cough* So again, not complaining.

ETA: It suddenly occurs to me your point is about TIME as opposed to MONEY. And in that, you might have a point, but I think Weir has not been used as well as she could have been in the last three years, so I'm content to see some focus shifted away from her, though I don't want to see her go. I realize Mileage varies widely on that opinion. I was more addressing FA's point that Sam was automatically going to diminish, dumb down or outshine all the other characters just by being there.

Ltcolshepjumper
February 14th, 2007, 10:43 AM
But its a likely asumption, she is one of the only people who is not currently on Atlantis that has the clearence and expertise to run a stargate based project. She has on several occasions been in leadership positions, shes headed area 51, been in command of promethius, oddesey, hatak's, she was also in charge of the SGC while General Landry was up in the mountains with Mitchell. I dont think in the shows universe there is anyone to doubt her ability and no one could argue that there is a better expert on the stargate and all related material alien or human engineered. She has bene at the forefront of gate travel since before we even went through the gate for the frist time. In terms of expertise in both civilian and military matters relating to the gate program, there is no other person who has as much knowledge and experience as she does.

I have to admit that seperating soldier and scientist sam is going to be tricky, as commander of a ship she could work very, but on atlantis it would be harder, if she was in orbit doing her own thing and then checking up on what the others are doing, putting them right then it would work. Also FAII sam could outshine rodney daily and not have her brain hurt and is much smarter than sheppard could ever dream to become in military affairs.

Which is the problem.

prion
February 14th, 2007, 10:44 AM
Has it occured to anyone that killing off Beckett and making Weir recurring may have been a choice before they decided to bring Carter over? Some execs decide on storylines years before they actually happen.
Characters die on television shows all the time, it keeps it real, it keeps it from going stale. I mean look at 24, they have killed off nearly everyone and it keeps getting better and better every series.
I was gutted when they killed off Doyle in 'Angel', but it made possibly one of the best episodes and heart-wrenching scenes in television.

The writers have publicly stated (at least JM has) that they've been wanting to bring Carter to Atlantis for quite a while. Beckett was killed off to 'shake things up.' Weir, who knows? Maybe it's purely budgetary, as if AT is on for 14 episodes, well, something's gotta give somewhere I suppose...

And that's one reason why "24" doesn't appeal to me. I don't watch tv to watch characters get killed every week.

Wormhole
February 14th, 2007, 10:47 AM
What gets me is, in the SG1 episode The Pegasus Project, they managed to utilise the use of nearly all of the main cast on both sides SG1 & SGA. If they can manage that for one episode what’s wrong with managing that for 14? I quiet enjoyed seeing them all working together. I've got nothing against SC/AT coming over to Atlantis but I can't see the need for dropping anyone to make room. It’s worked before Pegasus Project why can't it work again?

the dancer of spaz
February 14th, 2007, 10:48 AM
Could she replace Weir? Not unless she suddenly learns five languages, and then adds Ancient to that. And not unless she has some secret history as a diplomat/negotiator we don't know about.

Carter could replace Shep because of her military background or McKay because of her scientific background, but TPTB wouldn't dare mess with their golden boys. That's why she's muscling in on Weir's position, no matter how unqualified she is for the job.

See, I'm with a lot of other Sam Carter fans who are perfectly content with Weir leading the expedition. However, I do disagree with your idea that Carter needs to learn all these languages before she can come close to replacing Weir. Besides Ancient, when have we seen Weir use these talents? Once more, how many times have we seen her actually translate Ancient without Daniel being there (and that was on SG-1)? And even then, she didn't play a big role in the translations, meaning they didn't show her doing it for very long. I could be wrong, and if I am, let me know.

In regards to diplomacy and negotiations, Weir hasn't used skills that are any different than the skills SG-1 used for 10 years. And, just as with SG-1, sometimes she's not all that successful, and they end up having to shoot their way out of a situation anyway. I'm not saying she has no purpose, because I like Weir. But I do think that TPTB have done a poor job of showing us why she belongs on Atlantis and why she deserves the leadership role over anyone else.

I think her dedication, loyalty and strength is what qualifies her for the job, but beyond that, couldn't we feasibly find those same qualities in all of the main characters? And eventually in Carter?

You're right, though: TPTB would never have Carter move into Sheppard/McKay territory too much. But I'd say that that's because they clearly favor Shep/McKay over any other character, and that they'd do whatever it takes to preserve their placement on the team, even if Carter wasn't coming over.

Ltcolshepjumper
February 14th, 2007, 10:54 AM
Personally, I think Sam will be a ships captain, a la Caldwell and Ellis, though perhaps, she will be the captain of the Earth's first (purely) science vessel? Something they rush out to search & rescue Atlantis as soon as they get word that she's lost. Okay that's a stretch, but with AT's other commitments, I don't see her coming in and taking over anything.

I guess my one question is why does Sam have to be military? She could retire and be tapped by the IOA as someone with military and scientific expertise. If she becomes the head of the expedition, I'd expect that her military expertise would get put on the backburner except for dealing with John. With the demise of SG-1 there are a ton of directions that they can take her character, and not all of them involve her remaining in the military. Even if she does, from the talk I've heard, it sounds like she's going to remain an ancillary character. I don't think she will replace Weir, and I don't think she will "take over" for her either. Honestly, I think that John will step up (along with Teyla, we've been told she's getting an arc next year) and it will be a part of his and her growth arc for the show.

It feels like people are trying to make 2+2= lemons. The addition of Carter doesn't mean she's automatically taking over.

Except for that slight problem of TPTB doing SG-1 movies. I doubt they'll just make her retire and still be in the SG-1 movies. And that's the thing. If they're still doing SG-1 movies every year, then why realistically would she go to Atlantis? She's obviously still apart of SG-1, and, as TPTB mentioned some time back, SG-1 is still going on missions.

psychofilly
February 14th, 2007, 10:55 AM
I work in the industry, and believe me, when they have situations like this, it's most common for the person to be paid out. That's what they do. I know of several people who've been 'made redundant' and been paid anything up to two years' pay as a result, without having to work for it, because they still had contracts.

It's the way of the industry. There was nothing to force them to use Amanda. They're using her because they think it'll get them ratings. If it does, more power to them, but I think they'll lose many existing fans with this move. They've underestimated the popularity of Paul and Torri. It'll come back to bite them.


Heh, I actually realized we were taling about two different things and addressed it in the original post. I was talking more about the money, you were talking more about the time.

psychofilly
February 14th, 2007, 11:17 AM
For me, I've had enough of Carter. 10 years. And she changed towards the end of the series losing a lot of her appeal, IMO. I don't know. I just think it's a cop-out to bring on a character they've worked with for 10 years, instead of actually putting some effort into developing Weir into the wonderful character she could be. I look at Roslin on BSG as an example of a strong female lead character. Elizabeth could be that -- Torri's certainly an equal actress in skill to Mary McDonnell -- but they're not giving her the opportunity.

If only they would give Weir the depth of Madame Airlock. I'd be near orgasmic. For any of the female characters, actually.

It's complex for me. For one, I haven't seen all of s5-7 of SG-1 in order, and I haven't fallen out of love with Sam, the all American superbrain. She's got flaws, and I disliked just about attempt at shipping her with someone (except McKay for some reason, and I ship her with Teal'c in fic) but I just like her gosh darn it, and when she's being world weary and confidently competent, I might just love her a little.

I liked Weir okay, and Torri seems like a total doll, but season two really hamstrung her character. I don't like most of the decisions she's made, I don't like that she waffles and lets John and Rodney get away with murder, and at times I found her arrogant in the extreme, and not a very good negotiator which she's supposed to be. I hated how she acted towards the Asurans in Progeny... before she knew what they were. But from The Real World on, my opinion of her slowly changed and I'm back to liking her again, possibly more than in season one. I really don't want to see her go, but I want to see her really use her skill sets well, which they haven't yet except in small doses like Tao of Rodney.

I also think that online fans overestimate her and Carsons importance, as long as the core "team" stays intact, but time will test that out. If I'm wrong, I'm wrong. I still think that the easiest way to give Teyla an arc is to have her have to step up into some of Elizabeth's duties, and they can't do that if Sam is in command. My gut tells me that Sam is replacing Caldwell if she's replacing anyone.

FallenAngelII
February 14th, 2007, 11:22 AM
I think you aren't giving the writers enough credit. For one, Sam isn't "barging" in anywhere, or "taking over" or "outshining" anyone that we know of yet. That is simply an assumption. She could end up in command of the Midway Station and a fleet of ships for all we *know* about what Sam is going to be doing next year.

And Sam won't have to outshine anyone to be on Atlantis. You are making rather narrow assumptions based on some narrow options without seeing any of the possible positives. One of which is that while Torri might be getting "demoted" so to speak, that in no way means that Weir is. She might be injured/absent from the first few shows, giving John and his team some dramatic and hard choices to make, but we don't know if she'll step down after that, or still be in 6 to 12 episodes next year.

Sam may indeed just end up being the character that reminds the viewers that Earth is a part of the equation still and serving as a means to rescue Atlantis and then fade into the background.

We don't know yet. So I'm gonna reserve my doom and gloom until we do. Sorry FA, you aren't going to bludgeon me into a dither no matter how hard you beat the war drums.
I didn't say she will. I said "if" she does X and X.


Has it occured to anyone that killing off Beckett and making Weir recurring may have been a choice before they decided to bring Carter over? Some execs decide on storylines years before they actually happen.
Characters die on television shows all the time, it keeps it real, it keeps it from going stale. I mean look at 24, they have killed off nearly everyone and it keeps getting better and better every series.
I was gutted when they killed off Doyle in 'Angel', but it made possibly one of the best episodes and heart-wrenching scenes in television.
24 is not an ensemble show. It doesn't matter for them if they change cast members every year. Because it's not an ensemble show. Doyle was always meant to die in "Hero". And sure, it made for some exquisite episode (I cried). But can you really say that the show didn't change after that?


I never said it was a coincidence, though in fact, it might be. AT was already under contract for another year, well before they knew SG-1 would be cancelled. It's my understanding that they would have to pay her whether they used or or not, so "cutting" Torri has nothing to do with Amanda because they would have been paying that money whetehr she was on SG1, SGA or at home with Olivia.
Ok, this has got to end here.

Who do people think that Amanda Tapping in, the Queen of Television?! First, there were people running around claiming her contract is so very special they have to use her for at least another year. I had to run around repeating myself time and again to set the record straight.

And people still think that Amanda Tapping's contract forces the producers to pay her whether they use her or not? The only thing we know about her contract is that it gives them the choice to use her next year should they choose to.

Why would anyone sign a contract with an actor that gives them the choice to use them for X amount of years but that at the same time forces them to pay them no matter what choice they go for? And why would Amanda Tapping be the only person on SG-1 (because everyone besides Michael Shanks signed on for a possible 11th season) to receive such a special little contract? What is she, a Goddess? Did she say "Sign it or I quit!"? Or do they love her so much they threw that in just to keep her from even thinking of leaving the franchise?

Contracts like these are only given to really, really famous actors people can't afford to lose. And even then it's really, really, really rare. Because with contracts like these, you cannot actually fire someone. Well, you can, but you'd still have to pay them.

No, logic states that her contract does not entitle her to payment whether they use her or not (because, really, wouldn't it also specify how much they'd have to pay her? I mean, while they're getting their money's worth, why not make her a main cast member as they apparently have to pay her the same no matter what?)!

the dancer of spaz
February 14th, 2007, 11:46 AM
Ok, this has got to end here.

Who do people think that Amanda Tapping in, the Queen of Television?! First, there were people running around claiming her contract is so very special they have to use her for at least another year. I had to run around repeating myself time and again to set the record straight.

And people still think that Amanda Tapping's contract forces the producers to pay her whether they use her or not? The only thing we know about her contract is that it gives them the choice to use her next year should they choose to.

Why would anyone sign a contract with an actor that gives them the choice to use them for X amount of years but that at the same time forces them to pay them no matter what choice they go for? And why would Amanda Tapping be the only person on SG-1 (because everyone besides Michael Shanks signed on for a possible 11th season) to receive such a special little contract? What is she, a Goddess? Did she say "Sign it or I quit!"? Or do they love her so much they threw that in just to keep her from even thinking of leaving the franchise?

Contracts like these are only given to really, really famous actors people can't afford to lose. And even then it's really, really, really rare. Because with contracts like these, you cannot actually fire someone. Well, you can, but you'd still have to pay them.

No, logic states that her contract does not entitle her to payment whether they use her or not (because, really, wouldn't it also specify how much they'd have to pay her? I mean, while they're getting their money's worth, why not make her a main cast member as they apparently have to pay her the same no matter what?)!

Ahem...

OK, I see what you're saying, but all you're really proving is that TPTB (whether it's Bridge, MGM or SciFi) found it more than necessary to keep her on board. So necessary in fact, that amongst the changes they're already making to the series, they're willing to pay her (and, at this point, she's not all that cheap... relatively) for her work.

I understand you're irritated that it seems like people are giving her more credit than perhaps you believe is due, but whether she would've been paid for the year or not is moot. The studio exercised the right to use her for another year.

You're most likely right that they didn't have to pay her or any of the actors (though I wonder if maybe they just won't be paid *as much*), but the mere fact that they chose to do so is indicative of her worth. And no, before anyone develops a hernia, I'm not saying she's worth more than any other actor. But I do think there must be some value for the actor and the character, if they're making these kinds of decision.

FallenAngelII
February 14th, 2007, 11:49 AM
Ahem...

OK, I see what you're saying, but all you're really proving is that TPTB (whether it's Bridge, MGM or SciFi) found it more than necessary to keep her on board. So necessary in fact, that amongst the changes they're already making to the series, they're willing to pay her (and, at this point, she's not all that cheap... relatively) for her work.

I understand you're irritated that it seems like people are giving her more credit than perhaps you believe is due, but whether she would've been paid for the year or not is moot. The studio exercised the right to use her for another year.

You're most likely right that they didn't have to pay her or any of the actors (though I wonder if maybe they just won't be paid *as much*), but the mere fact that they chose to do so is indicative of her worth. And no, before anyone develops a hernia, I'm not saying she's worth more than any other actor. But I do think there must be some value for the actor and the character, if they're making these kinds of decision.
I've proved bupkis.

There is absolutely no proof that Amanda Tapping's contract entitles her to payment whether they use her or not.

Anyone claiming this is doing it without any proof or even an inkling of proof.

The only reason why her contract would state that she should be paid even if they don't use her would be if they really, really love her and feared she wouldn't sign on for an 11th season should they not include this clause (or if she's so conceited she demanded such a clause), yes.

But I've proved bupkis and no one who's claimed this has any proof, either. It's like saying that because we've never seen Rodney specifically say that he's 100% heterosexual and could never fall in love with a man, especially John Sheppard, they're obviously doing it.

psychofilly
February 14th, 2007, 11:54 AM
FA, I said it was my understanding, and it is apparently other peoples understanding that she will get paid as well, maybe not for the full amount, but paid. If I am wrong, fine, but let's just say she was under contract, and they *would* have paid her if s11 would have happened. I don't think Faries come and sprinkle sparkley Mary-Sue dust on her feet every night or something. The producers had the option to bring her over and they did. I also thought I remember reading that she was the only one with the two year deal, because she renogotiated when she came back after Olivia. That could be totally faulty though, so I'm not going to stand behind that. (I do know she renegotiated in season nine for 10 and 11, and by all accounts played hardball, after the others were signed, I just don't know what she got in relation to what they got).

As for your qualifier about saying "if" when ranting about Sam, you said she was barging in, no ifs, and you stated that the other scientists would have to be dummed down, again no ifs. And my point still stands that you have ascribed a very narrow list of options for Sam coming onto the show, when there are dozens, many of which have nothing to do with replacing Weir.

Also, Doyle was not "always" meant to die in Heroes. If you believe that, then congratulations, you fell for the Whedon PR Spin Machine. It's pretty common knowledge exactly why he was let go, but I'm not going to discuss his troubled life here.

I find it hard to take you seriously.

the dancer of spaz
February 14th, 2007, 12:37 PM
I've proved bupkis.

There is absolutely no proof that Amanda Tapping's contract entitles her to payment whether they use her or not.

Anyone claiming this is doing it without any proof or even an inkling of proof.

I agree with you that there's no proof that Amanda Tapping's contract entitles her to payment whether they use her or not.

However, by acknowledging that fact, you have to acknowledge that that means that they then went out of their way to ensure her inclusion in Atlantis.

If they didn't have to pay her beyond the 2006-2007 season, just like you're suggesting they don't have to pay anyone else who signed on for an 11th season, why would they then use her for the fourth season of Atlantis, unless they believe that using her would be a good thing for the show? Why would they spend that kind of money unnecessarily, unless they did value her presence and contribution?

I only ask because you seem to be very determined to suggest that she's not valuable (or something), when it seems to me that if your theory is true (and I believe it probably is) the character/actor is valuable to those in charge at this point in time.


The only reason why her contract would state that she should be paid even if they don't use her would be if they really, really love her and feared she wouldn't sign on for an 11th season should they not include this clause (or if she's so conceited she demanded such a clause), yes.

There's no way to say either way. I doubt her contract was any different than those of the other actors, but speculating on what her contract said, why it was negotiated, and, most notably, what Amanda Tapping's motives were is incredibly pointless. All it does is show how utterly over the top you're willing to take your stance on this issue.

psychofilly
February 14th, 2007, 12:43 PM
There's no way to say either way. I doubt her contract was any different than those of the other actors, but speculating on what her contract said, why it was negotiated, and, most notably, what Amanda Tapping's motives were is incredibly pointless. All it does is show how utterly over the top you're willing to take your stance on this issue.

The thing is that actors contracts can be vastly different for a number of reasons. They may have a better agent, or timing or whatever. It puts me in mind of Angel the Series. Spike (Jame Marsters) came abored in the last season, and they had to renegotiate Angel (David Boreanaz's) contract because DB was nearing the end of his, and JM had actually negotiated himself into making more money than the show lead per episode.

From what I was reading trying to find where I'd seen the stuff about AT's contract, Shanks wasn't signed for an eleventh season, whether by his choice or the shows... Just because we don't have proof that AT wasn't going to get money next year regardless, doens't mean that FA has proof that she wasn't.

Shrill does not equal correct.

prion
February 14th, 2007, 04:34 PM
I work in the industry, and believe me, when they have situations like this, it's most common for the person to be paid out. That's what they do. I know of several people who've been 'made redundant' and been paid anything up to two years' pay as a result, without having to work for it, because they still had contracts.

It's the way of the industry. There was nothing to force them to use Amanda. They're using her because they think it'll get them ratings. If it does, more power to them, but I think they'll lose many existing fans with this move. They've underestimated the popularity of Paul and Torri. It'll come back to bite them.

I've seen thsi happen before. On the TV show War of hte worlds, the producers decided to kill off two characters (in one episode, talk about a slaughter). The actors all had five year contracts. The studio was obligated to buy out the remaining years.

I'd say that AT signed her contract for season 11, it didn't happen, but she still had a contract which the producers optioned in order to use her on SGA solely to drag SG1 fans over to SGA. Pure and simple. That costs money, so, Weir was reduced to recurring. I don't know if the studio bought out the time on her contract or not, but don't know if we'll find out unless the actor says so (which was the case with the WOTW actors).

RealmOfX
February 14th, 2007, 04:53 PM
No I didn't. And when you have an ensemble show like Atlantis, you will either get a clone or a Light version. If Sam were to, for example, continue her role as a soldier, she'd either become a clone of John in that she's one of the main soldiers or she'd become a Light version in that she'd have less screen time and less important screen time than John.

Yes you did. Here is where you asked that question.

<snip>What would Sam's role be? To pull rank to shoot down John's ideas? To further complicate scientific matters by now not only having Rodney and Radek around but also Sam herself, all arguing about what's the best thing to do? Not to mention that since Sam's the perfect woman who's never wrong, Rodney and Radek would have to be dumbed down considerably, always being wrong (or just much slower at arriving at the right solution) in order for Sam to be right.

Now to continue with the first part of this post. No matter how many times you repeat it, it is not going to make your logic correct. Your logic - Character A is included in the cast, because they have X skill in common with character B it will make them a clone or light version. That's not true and is faulty logic.



It's not a military expedition.

I never said it was, I said it was a military and scientific expedition, which it is.



And the IOA is very finicky about it staying a civilian operation. They'll just have to promote John.

So? What has that to do with you purporting that "She will also not take over as head of the military department". All I did was point out that that was incorrect IF Sam did take over command of the expedition. You do not seem to understand how the military works.



Scroll back and visit threads other than this one. Plenty of people think she should become a main player either in the science department or take over as head of the military department.

I said no one has proposed she does all three like you are proposing and I'm talking about this thread, you know the one we're in.

nowvoyager908
February 14th, 2007, 05:59 PM
I also think that online fans overestimate her and Carsons importance, as long as the core "team" stays intact, but time will test that out. If I'm wrong, I'm wrong. I still think that the easiest way to give Teyla an arc is to have her have to step up into some of Elizabeth's duties, and they can't do that if Sam is in command. My gut tells me that Sam is replacing Caldwell if she's replacing anyone.


I think lots of fans do consider Carson and Elizabeth to be part of the core team and just as important to the story as the intergalactic Four Musketeers. I guess as a long-time ST fan, I believe that all parts of an ensemble cast are important and add something to the mix. I also think that many fans, especially those who don't watch SG1, do feel a certain loyalty to the cast as it is. Carter means nothing to them. She's just some blonde chick who has shown up in a couple of episodes to basically torture Rodney.

IMHO, the two characters who provided the balance to the "boys with toys running wild" mindset are Carson and Elizabeth. One is very dead and the other is fading as we speak. I've seen Carter with McKay when she guest starred on SGA. She doesn't balance him, she's adds fuel to the fire and makes him even more manic (if that's even possible). :S Unless they give Carter a character transplant and make her into a different person, I see possible danger ahead Will Robinson.

psychofilly
February 14th, 2007, 06:42 PM
I think lots of fans do consider Carson and Elizabeth to be part of the core team and just as important to the story as the intergalactic Four Musketeers. I guess as a long-time ST fan, I believe that all parts of an ensemble cast are important and add something to the mix. I also think that many fans, especially those who don't watch SG1, do feel a certain loyalty to the cast as it is. Carter means nothing to them. She's just some blonde chick who has shown up in a couple of episodes to basically torture Rodney.

I completely understand what you are saying. If I had my druthers, I'd have left the cast alone, but if I had to snip, those would be the two, I'd snip. In my own experience, I've been fans of shows that that had ensembles that changed and switched shows, and in almost every case, the changes worked out fine. Maybe that predisposes me to give the writers the chance to make it work?



IMHO, the two characters who provided the balance to the "boys with toys running wild" mindset are Carson and Elizabeth. One is very dead and the other is fading as we speak. I've seen Carter with McKay when she guest starred on SGA. She doesn't balance him, she's adds fuel to the fire and makes him even more manic (if that's even possible). :S Unless they give Carter a character transplant and make her into a different person, I see possible danger ahead Will Robinson.

This is where I disagree. First I don't believe Weir will be completely ghosted. Second, with the changes, we don't know who will step up to help balance the show. They don't have to change Sam because over the course of the last three years Rodney has grown and evolved as a person. There is always the chance that they could regress Rodney and have him play the fool for the court of Atlantis, but all the writers have to do is keep Rodney on the path he's already on. There is an element of Oil/Water Spark/Gasoline to their relationship, but Sam seems to have learned how to handle Rodney's bluster and sexual posturing, and She and Rodney have worked fine together in the last couple of episodes. They are equals now. Whatever they have Sam do on the show, I'm confident that Rodney's character can easily hold his own. I dunno, I just can't help but be optimistic.

RealmOfX
February 14th, 2007, 11:11 PM
I don't think it's a coincidence that Torri's being dumped to recurring and Amanda's getting 14 episodes. There's such a thing as cause and effect.... they needed to make room. They're cutting Torri's time to do that. (IMO!)

You know what? I'm really getting tired of people blaming Amanda for what's happening to Torri. Did you ever think that they could be cutting Torri's time before they made a decision about Amanda? It's just as possible as your "cause and effect". There is no proof either way and it just generates bad feeling towards Amanda in certain circles. Both Torri and Amanda do not deserve crap like this and they are both very considerate people and I'm sure they'd be appalled at the personal stuff certain fans are pushing.

And before you object and say you're not blaming Amanda go back and read exactly what you wrote. TPTB have made decisions that affect several actors but you imply that Torri was cut for Amanda and nowhere do you mention your outrage at TPTB. Constantly phrasing it as you do implies it's Amanda's fault. Torri is being made recurrent and that is all we know, rage about TPTB for making that decision but leave Amanda out of it.

I understand your ire at what is happening to Torri because I share it but please stop implying that it is Amanda's fault.

RealmOfX
February 14th, 2007, 11:43 PM
<snip>
Ok, this has got to end here.

<snipped because I refuse to repeat derogatory comments about an actor>


Actually what has got to stop is your over the top rants that segue into personal comments about Amanda.

Oh dear me, he's quoting logic again and incorrectly!!
Actually logic dictates that you refrain from commenting on a contract that you know nothing about.


I've proved bupkis.

<snipped because I refuse to repeat derogatory comments about an actor>

Yup you got bupkis again.

"the only reason ......." FA you really need to get a grip. You have no idea what is in the contract let alone ANY of the reasons behind certain clauses so please desist.

FallenAngelII
February 15th, 2007, 12:04 AM
Big spoilers below if it's true, and I mean huge:

There are rumors that Weir is critically injured and can't resume command at least in the first few episodes of Season Four, which would explain why she's recurring, and possibly not in command.

Plus seeing as Atlantis is in space and they are more or less at war with the Asurans they are going to need a Military commander rather than a civillian, plus if Carter does take over she has a lot more experience than the Atlantis characters even as experienced as they are.

No idea how accurate any of that is, and I guess until we see season four we don't know what will happen, I'm just glad Stargate is still on tv for another year at least.
Carson was a main cast member for seasons 2-3 despite missing from several episodes. So that's not a valid explanation.

Also, unless they have unlimited ZPMs all of a sudden, Atlantis will not remain in space. Besides, we already have a military commander; John. Making a military commander head of Atlantis won't really change much in relation to the Asurans.


FA, I said it was my understanding, and it is apparently other peoples understanding that she will get paid as well, maybe not for the full amount, but paid. If I am wrong, fine, but let's just say she was under contract, and they *would* have paid her if s11 would have happened. I don't think Faries come and sprinkle sparkley Mary-Sue dust on her feet every night or something. The producers had the option to bring her over and they did. I also thought I remember reading that she was the only one with the two year deal, because she renogotiated when she came back after Olivia. That could be totally faulty though, so I'm not going to stand behind that. (I do know she renegotiated in season nine for 10 and 11, and by all accounts played hardball, after the others were signed, I just don't know what she got in relation to what they got).

As for your qualifier about saying "if" when ranting about Sam, you said she was barging in, no ifs, and you stated that the other scientists would have to be dummed down, again no ifs. And my point still stands that you have ascribed a very narrow list of options for Sam coming onto the show, when there are dozens, many of which have nothing to do with replacing Weir.

Also, Doyle was not "always" meant to die in Heroes. If you believe that, then congratulations, you fell for the Whedon PR Spin Machine. It's pretty common knowledge exactly why he was let go, but I'm not going to discuss his troubled life here.

I find it hard to take you seriously.
Pray tell, what is this "understanding" based on? It's certainly not based on anyone viewing Amanda's contract or anyone's statements. It's based on that the Amanda once said that her contract "gave [the PTB] the right to use her next season should they choose to".

It's my understanding John and Rodney are an item based on much more proof than the "Amanda will be paid no matter what" theorists. I'm sorry, it's just that there's absolutely no proof for this ridiculous theory.

Of course they would've paid her if season 11 had happened (if they'd used her). They wouldn't if they chose to fire her, though.

Yes, they had the option to do so. They were absolutely under no obligation due to contractual reasons to do so.

Amanda tapping is not the only person to have signed on for an 11th season. It was confirmed way back that all main cast members besides Michael Shanks had.

Those are pretty much her only options. She'll either become a completely new character, be dulled down versions of John and Rodney or outshine John and Rodney. Those are her three options. Why? Because of the very nature of the characters Sam, Rodney and John.


I agree with you that there's no proof that Amanda Tapping's contract entitles her to payment whether they use her or not.

However, by acknowledging that fact, you have to acknowledge that that means that they then went out of their way to ensure her inclusion in Atlantis.

If they didn't have to pay her beyond the 2006-2007 season, just like you're suggesting they don't have to pay anyone else who signed on for an 11th season, why would they then use her for the fourth season of Atlantis, unless they believe that using her would be a good thing for the show? Why would they spend that kind of money unnecessarily, unless they did value her presence and contribution?

I only ask because you seem to be very determined to suggest that she's not valuable (or something), when it seems to me that if your theory is true (and I believe it probably is) the character/actor is valuable to those in charge at this point in time.



There's no way to say either way. I doubt her contract was any different than those of the other actors, but speculating on what her contract said, why it was negotiated, and, most notably, what Amanda Tapping's motives were is incredibly pointless. All it does is show how utterly over the top you're willing to take your stance on this issue.
I never said she's not valuable or a good actress (or even a good character). Because I don't believe any of those things.

I oppose the belief that she's the goddess of television, however, something she'd have to be to receive a contract like that.

So the PTB think she'll be a good addition. And? Since when are the PTB infallible Gods? There are the people who thought Lucius was a good character, who thought making John Mr. Kirk would be a good idea and whose idea of "recurring character" equals three episodes and an ambigious death (Aiden).

We don't know what will happen. But you cannot argue that it'll all be roses and daisies just because the PTB are in charge.


From what I was reading trying to find where I'd seen the stuff about AT's contract, Shanks wasn't signed for an eleventh season, whether by his choice or the shows... Just because we don't have proof that AT wasn't going to get money next year regardless, doens't mean that FA has proof that she wasn't.

Shrill does not equal correct.
Absence of proof does not equal proof. There is absolutely nothing to indicate your thesis. In fact, logic indicates the opposite (why would Amanda Tapping be so conceited/special? Why only her out of the entire case?).

The "Amanda would be paid regardless"-side doesn't even have vague quotes to misinterpret. They just made it up.


I've seen thsi happen before. On the TV show War of hte worlds, the producers decided to kill off two characters (in one episode, talk about a slaughter). The actors all had five year contracts. The studio was obligated to buy out the remaining years.

I'd say that AT signed her contract for season 11, it didn't happen, but she still had a contract which the producers optioned in order to use her on SGA solely to drag SG1 fans over to SGA. Pure and simple. That costs money, so, Weir was reduced to recurring. I don't know if the studio bought out the time on her contract or not, but don't know if we'll find out unless the actor says so (which was the case with the WOTW actors).
They actively chose to terminate those characters. Sci-Fi cancelled the show. Besides, I doubt they were the only ones out of the entire cast to have contracts like that.

Amanda, according to your thesis, would be the only one with such a contract despite not being billed either first or last with a "and X as".

And no one has ever argued against the thesis that her contract gave the PTB the option to use her next season. In fact, I've mentioned that several times already.

RealmOfX:
1) Rhetorical question
2) She won't be a 100% clone. But she'll be a similar character, nonetheless (if they chose to go that route). Because she's always been a soldier and a scientist, just as Rodney has always been a scientist and John's always been a soldier. There's a reason why she was a soldier and a scientist. Otherwise, it would've been boring with both her and Jack on the same team. I mean, just look at Ford. They failed to develop him and possibly killed him off.
3) It's not a military expedition in any way. It's a scientific one, yes. It's not a military and scientific one. It's also a civilian operation.
4) I understand how the military works. I said they'd just have to promote John. Because it'd be very stupid if Sam took over both as expedition leader and head of the military.
5) I never suggested she do all three things. I painted up different paths she could take. Of course, there's a possibility she might take over all three departments, but that's only if the PTB feel like making asses out of themselves.


Actually what has got to stop is your over the top rants that segue into personal comments about Amanda.

Oh dear me, he's quoting logic again and incorrectly!!
Actually logic dictates that you refrain from commenting on a contract that you know nothing about.
I'm sorry, where did I use derogatory language towards Amanda Tapping or insult her in any way? It seems that people think that unless you're 100% positive and constantly praising something, you're automatically insulting it.

I was insulting the intelligence of certain viewers who seem to think that Amanda Tapping is the Queen of Television. I also pointed out that she might have demanded such a clause in her contract, but that's all assumption on your part (the possibilities are: "They did it because they love her so much they wanted her to have money no matter what", "They did it because they were afraid she wouldn't sign up for the 11th season otherwise", "Amanda Tapping demanded they do it").

Quote me and point out the derogatory language (speculating that she might've been conceited does not make the post derogatory especially when I'm not the one speculating that).


Yup you got bupkis again.

"the only reason ......." FA you really need to get a grip. You have no idea what is in the contract let alone ANY of the reasons behind certain clauses so please desist.
Neither do you. Nor any of your theorist friends. Actually, you guys have nothing, at all, to base your theory on. Point me towards any proof whatsoever that the PTB felt Amanda Tapping to be such an asset they gave her a bulletproof contract that obligated them to pay her the same amount of money no matter how many episodes they use her in next season (because some people seem to believe that) or that the contract states they have to use her next season (because some people still believe this) or that the contract states they'll have to pay her anything at all next season when none of the other cast members who also signed up for an 11th season (Beau Bridges, Christopher Judge, Ben Browder) received such contracts.

There are only three logical reasons why they'd give her such a contract:
* They like her a lot and wanted to pay her next season no matter what, because they love her so darn much
* They were afraid she might not sign up without such a contract
* She demanded such a contract

Then there are other possibilities like "A bunny told them to", but I doubt it. I also doubt Sci-Fi demanded Amanda Tapping be given a contract like that. But you're right, my theory holds almost as little substance as your theory.

Absence of proof does not equal proof. Wanting something to be so does not make it so. Making a theory up and pushing it as fact does not make it a fact.

FallenAngelII
February 15th, 2007, 12:26 AM
Because my previous post exceeded the character limit:
I wouldn't really object this vehemently had you and your theorist kin just said "It's my unsubstantiated theory that..." instead of running around presenting this theory are proven fact, confusing less informed people and spread disinformation (because said less informed people will spread the word).

Skydiver
February 15th, 2007, 04:37 AM
Ok guys

FIrst, the topic is 'could carter replace weir'

and silly me just can't see how amanda's contract, shanks' contract, torri's contract, paul's contract comes under that topic. Not to mention skirting that fine line of respect actors' privacy, so let's drop it.

second, I also don't see how carson's departure is on topic.

In my mind, under the title of this thread, the only real plot speculation is carter's arrival and weir's departure. So let's see if we can keep it that way.

RealmOfX
February 15th, 2007, 05:58 AM
<snip>

RealmOfX:
1) Rhetorical question
2) She won't be a 100% clone. But she'll be a similar character, nonetheless (if they chose to go that route). Because she's always been a soldier and a scientist, just as Rodney has always been a scientist and John's always been a soldier. There's a reason why she was a soldier and a scientist. Otherwise, it would've been boring with both her and Jack on the same team. I mean, just look at Ford. They failed to develop him and possibly killed him off.
3) It's not a military expedition in any way. It's a scientific one, yes. It's not a military and scientific one. It's also a civilian operation.
4) I understand how the military works. I said they'd just have to promote John. Because it'd be very stupid if Sam took over both as expedition leader and head of the military.
5) I never suggested she do all three things. I painted up different paths she could take. Of course, there's a possibility she might take over all three departments, but that's only if the PTB feel like making asses out of themselves.

1) A question that I didn't think was rhetorical and which I chose to answer because of the ludicrous proposals you presented. So, did you ask a question - yes.
2) So now she's not light and not a clone but a similar character? You just keep changing your tune don't you.
3) Due to the fact that you have a military contingent and a military commander, the expedition is indeed a military and scientific expedition. Headed by a civilian who cannot order the military and who must work in conjunction with the military leader for military operations to occur. The fact that military operations do occur should clue you in that your statement "It's not a military expedition in any way." is incorrect.
4) You just demonstrated how little you do know about the military. What I said previously is correct.
5) After several posts let's go back to what you originally said. "It's not OK to have her replace already existing characters and slowly taking over the show, which she would do if she suddenly had a hand in everything; leading the expedition, running the military and taking over the science department. I mean, all she needs to do then is to get a medical degree, kick Keller off the force and it'll be Stargate: Samantha - with a Lieutenant Colonel Samantha Carter being the one and only senior staff member." My reply was that no one has proposed this so why are you objecting to it as if someone had.
You keep changing your tune. No one has said that Sam should do all three things except you when you were objecting to it. I'm not sure what your logic for this is? Maybe it's "if I speculate that someone else has speculated it and then disagree with it then I'm not the one that is actually proposing it"??

<snip>

Almighty_Wookie
February 15th, 2007, 06:08 AM
[QUOTE=FallenAngelII;6330179]Carson was a main cast member for seasons 2-3 despite missing from several episodes. So that's not a valid explanation.[QUOTE=FallenAngelII;6330179]

What I meant was that may be the explanation as to the rumours of Carter being in command, not why she's a recurring cast member.

FallenAngelII
February 15th, 2007, 06:25 AM
1) -moot point-
2) So now she's not light and not a clone but a similar character? You just keep changing your tune don't you.
I've always made it clear that when I say "clone" and "light", I mean as in the nature of her character. I always elaborated with what I meant by those two words.


3) Due to the fact that you have a military contingent and a military commander, the expedition is indeed a military and scientific expedition. Headed by a civilian who cannot order the military and who must work in conjunction with the military leader for military operations to occur. The fact that military operations do occur should clue you in that your statement "It's not a military expedition in any way." is incorrect.
Just because there's a military contingent does not make it a military expedition. And correct me if I'm wrong but Elizabeth is above John. She can veto any decision John makes should she choose to.


4) You just demonstrated how little you do know about the military. What I said previously is correct.
5) After several posts let's go back to what you originally said. "It's not OK to have her replace already existing characters and slowly taking over the show, which she would do if she suddenly had a hand in everything; leading the expedition, running the military and taking over the science department. I mean, all she needs to do then is to get a medical degree, kick Keller off the force and it'll be Stargate: Samantha - with a Lieutenant Colonel Samantha Carter being the one and only senior staff member." My reply was that no one has proposed this so why are you objecting to it as if someone had.
Actually, that's not what I originally said. I said that a good 5-10 posts into the thread in response to people saying she should take over as military commander or head scientist or lead the expedition (or sometimes multiple things).


You keep changing your tune. No one has said that Sam should do all three things except you when you were objecting to it. I'm not sure what your logic for this is? Maybe it's "if I speculate that someone else has speculated it and then disagree with it then I'm not the one that is actually proposing it"??
Some people want her to take over as expedition leader. And that would automatically make her ranking officer and hence make her head of the military contingent. Not to mention that she'll still be scientist. A lot of people still want her to have a hand in all things science.

Note how I never said she'd take over every single department at the same time. I said she'd have a hand in everything. As in that she'll be one of the main soldiers and one of the main scientists and, according to the will of some, maybe also lead the expedition. Having a hand in everything does not equal running everything.

I did mention the possibility of her doing each of those things, each things that people want her to do (though no one has yet to suggest she do all three things). I merely pointed them out. Never once did I say "All three things at the same time".


Maybe if you stopped your ranting for a second you would have realised that you have lost the plot. You haven't realised that
A) I never made a comment about the subject that's to be dropped, I merely corrected your false logic
B) I don't have any theorist friends because I haven't proposed a theory
C) You are still making false logical deductions.
D) You are doing exactly what you are critising other people for - jumping to conclusions.
I'm sorry if you're not the person who said "It's my understanding that [Amanda Tapping's contract entitles her to being paid whether or not they use her next season]". You and that other person just bleed into each other as you guys are the only people I'm actually replying to in this thread. I apologize for that. Well, that person and their theorist friends, then.

psychofilly
February 15th, 2007, 06:47 AM
FA, we didn't say, "Proof positive Amanda is getting paid, yo."

I didn't see that. I know I said "it's my understanding that..." Which means that that's what I thought/had heard, not what I knew. And I never said she'd get paid in full for not working. You are so busy jumping down other people's throats about how bad Sam will be for the show you've lost sight of everything else.

And you still refuse to consider other possibilities than "Sam will take over everything and be perfect and everyone else will languishomg!"

All we know is that Sam will be coming in a ship. And we know she's got a four day shoot per episode. For all we know she'll be in command of the little intergalactic tug-boat that could. And she won't be on Atlantis proper very much at all. You present your rant filled speculation as if it's the only option for the writers. I think they'll find something cool and interesting for her to do. At the very least, she's a developed, rounded, competent and strong female character from the get-go. And I don't see why her competence has to equal someone elses incompetence.

So again, the simple answer is that I do not think Carter would, could, or should replace Weir. It sounds to me like the writers have found a way to bring her aboard and fit her into the universe, otherwise they wouldn't have asked her to come to Atlantis. I was worried about the "soft reset", but I feel like the writers handled that well, so I'm giving them the chance to handle this too. If and when it starts to suck, I'll start complaining. But not before.

I totally get the POV of people that are upset about Weir and Carson being gone and reduced. But that doesn't seem to be your argument. You seem to think Carter is a Mary-Sue that will take over the show and I don't agree.

FallenAngelII
February 15th, 2007, 07:08 AM
<snip>


All we know is that Sam will be coming in a ship. And we know she's got a four day shoot per episode. For all we know she'll be in command of the little intergalactic tug-boat that could. And she won't be on Atlantis proper very much at all. You present your rant filled speculation as if it's the only option for the writers. I think they'll find something cool and interesting for her to do. At the very least, she's a developed, rounded, competent and strong female character from the get-go. And I don't see why her competence has to equal someone elses incompetence.
This would fall under the "Taking a whole new route"-angle, which I did mention as a possibility! It would actually be a pretty good one as no one would be dumbed down on either side, but it might irk conservative Sam fans who won't like her character changing so much.


I totally get the POV of people that are upset about Weir and Carson being gone and reduced. But that doesn't seem to be your argument. You seem to think Carter is a Mary-Sue that will take over the show and I don't agree.
No, I'm pointing out the possibilities of what's going to happen. I don't think they will happen because if they do, then the PTB have really gone off the deep end. But we can't give them too much credit either. Some of them might actually happen in some capacity.

I've seen plenty of people suggest Sam either take over as head of Atlantis (hello, this thread for instance), her taking over the military department or her taking over as head of science. I'm merely pointing out the problems of that. I'm also pointing out the general problems that her mere presence on Atlantis will cause.

At the same time, however, I also pointed out a lot of other possibilities, like taking her in a whole new direction. But that will be problematic too as long time fans of SG-1 Sam will be irked by the fact that we'll have a brand new SGA Sam.

psychofilly
February 15th, 2007, 07:12 AM
Just because there's a military contingent does not make it a military expedition. And correct me if I'm wrong but Elizabeth is above John. She can veto any decision John makes should she choose to.

Actually no. John can veto Elizabeth on military/safety decisions. In fact, I think he mentions it in the excreable Irresistable. The fact that he doesn't (much) is a sign of his respect for her, and the complexity of the situation. She's supposed to defer, but she's supposed to be able to make the call as to when. And look, from the transcript!


WEIR: Colonel. I think it's worth investigating.

SHEPPARD: No. I won't allow it.

WEIR (turning to him): John, are you questioning my authority?

SHEPPARD: When it comes to the security of this base, you're damned right I am. (He walks closer to her.) From now on, no-one goes through that Gate without my authorisation.

(He turns and walks away. Lucius shakes his head sadly.)

From Hot Zone: WEIR (interrupting): I understand your expertise in military matters and I agree that I should defer to those expertise in such situations.

SHEPPARD: Thank you!

WEIR: But you are not the one who decides what is and what is not a military situation.

And I have no theorist friends. I remember the interview with Amanda where she said she had been optioned for both shows, and where she mentions coming over. The idea that she would get paid comes from boards like this and on LJ. I heard misinformation. It happens. However, anything you say is just as pure speculation as what anyone else says. Your assertions are no more fact than anyone elses.

ETA: And again, I don't think Carter has to change in any way for her to fit in, or for the other characters to change either. Which seems to be the true crux of our dissagreement on the issue.

RealmOfX
February 15th, 2007, 07:40 AM
<snip>
Just because there's a military contingent does not make it a military expedition. And correct me if I'm wrong but Elizabeth is above John. She can veto any decision John makes should she choose to.

Consider yourself corrected. Elizabeth cannot veto any decision John makes, a civilian cannot give a military person an order (except the President and only according to the chain of command). So anything pertaining to the military is off limits to Elizabeth and they've mentioned it on the show I think.



Actually, that's not what I originally said. I said that a good 5-10 posts into the thread in response to people saying she should take over as military commander or head scientist or lead the expedition (or sometimes multiple things).

Some people want her to take over as expedition leader. And that would automatically make her ranking officer and hence make her head of the military contingent. Not to mention that she'll still be scientist. A lot of people still want her to have a hand in all things science.

Note how I never said she'd take over every single department at the same time. I said she'd have a hand in everything. As in that she'll be one of the main soldiers and one of the main scientists and, according to the will of some, maybe also lead the expedition. Having a hand in everything does not equal running everything.

I did mention the possibility of her doing each of those things, each things that people want her to do (though no one has yet to suggest she do all three things). I merely pointed them out. Never once did I say "All three things at the same time".

"It's not OK to have her replace already existing characters and slowly taking over the show, which she would do if she suddenly had a hand in everything; leading the expedition, running the military and taking over the science department. I mean, all she needs to do then is to get a medical degree, kick Keller off the force and it'll be Stargate: Samantha - with a Lieutenant Colonel Samantha Carter being the one and only senior staff member."

You really need to work on your phrasing, what you write and what you say you mean don't add up. You take what several different people have said and lump it all together, then you say one thing and mean another??

I still stand by my original question - no one has proposed this so why are you objecting to it as if someone had. No one has said that Sam should do all three things except you when you were objecting to it.


I want to revisit a paragraph from above -


Some people want her to take over as expedition leader. And that would automatically make her ranking officer and hence make her head of the military contingent. Not to mention that she'll still be scientist. A lot of people still want her to have a hand in all things science.

If they militarise the expedition (which they will need to do if they assign a military officer to be leader) then the setup will be no different than the one that exists at the SGC. A military commander in charge of a military force and civilian contractors/scientists with a civilian oversight committee.

"Some people want her to take over as expedition leader."
Yes.

"And that would automatically make her ranking officer and hence make her head of the military contingent."
Technically not correct but to a civilian perhaps conceptually correct. When assigning an officer a command the military make sure that the officer is able to command everyone under their command. Assigning her as expedition leader would not make her the ranking officer, it works the other way around she wouldn't get the job unless she could command everyone else.

"Not to mention that she'll still be scientist."
Channeling Jack "And ... so ... therefore ... what?"
Seriously what does that have to do with anything? Did Jack being Special Ops affect him running the SGC? Or Hammond being a pilot?

"A lot of people still want her to have a hand in all things science."
So? You're still not trying to take bits from different people and lump them all together are you?

So there really is no problem if they assign command of the expedition to Sam other than people's personal preferences. She has the qualifications and experience and the setup would be similar to the setup at the SGC.

FallenAngelII
February 15th, 2007, 07:56 AM
Actually no. John can veto Elizabeth on military/safety decisions. In fact, I think he mentions it in the excreable Irresistable. The fact that he doesn't (much) is a sign of his respect for her, and the complexity of the situation. She's supposed to defer, but she's supposed to be able to make the call as to when. And look, from the transcript!
Well, those quotes do make it seem like Elizabeth should listen to John when it comes to military decisions... but it's still ambiguous as to who has the final say. "Defer" just means "delay".


And I have no theorist friends. I remember the interview with Amanda where she said she had been optioned for both shows, and where she mentions coming over. The idea that she would get paid comes from boards like this and on LJ. I heard misinformation. It happens. However, anything you say is just as pure speculation as what anyone else says. Your assertions are no more fact than anyone elses.
<snip>

ETA: And again, I don't think Carter has to change in any way for her to fit in, or for the other characters to change either. Which seems to be the true crux of our dissagreement on the issue.
Yes, that is the crux of our disagreement. I'm not saying Carter's a bad character (though I'm constantly irked by the fact that in 10 years, she's done pretty much everything right at all times). I'm not saying bringing her onto the show will doomed the franchise.

I'm saying that in my opinion, she shouldn't be brought in because of the many problems she'll be faced with. She'll have to battle already existing characters for a spot in the ensemble (in an uphill battle no less as the PTB have proved time and again that they aren't good at writing ensemble shows with huge casts. Teyla, Ronon, Ford, Carson, Elizabeth, anyone?), characters with similar roles as her no less!

And while she could just be taken in a whole new direction, that would pose problems as well with conservative fans.

RealmOfX: And you see nothing wrong with turning SGA into SG-1? The Atlantis expedition was never a military expedition. It's handled completely different from SG-1 because the military isn't in charge. The shows differ in their very nature because of this.

The thing with Sam is that being a scientist is one of her core purposes in life (or, well, Stargate). During the run of SG-1, she wasn't just a soldier, she was also a scientist. Half of the time (or actually more than half of the time), she spent her waking hours finding scientific solutions, not military ones.

Even if she became expedition leader (or took over as head of the military), many fans would still wish her to continue working with the scientists. So not only will she bump either Elizabeth or John off the ladder, she'd also have to butt into Rodney's territory. It's hard enough with an ensemble as big as Atlantis' to balance things. It's so hard, the only scientists you see on a regular basis are Rodney and Radek. And now we bring Sam in as well?

And who will be the one to pull the rabbit out of the hand at the last moment? Rodney? Sam? 50/50? All kinds of problems arise.

Of course, they could just not her explore her scientist side much. But that'd irk fans of Scientist Sam. You see the problem here?

She'll still be her own character. It's just that on SG-1, he could be all of the things that she is (woman (a horribly written one), scientist, soldier). On SGA, she'll either be limited in those roles or she'll have to intrude onto other characters' territories.

<snip>

Sam won't be doing that. John, Elizabeth and Rodney will still be present. And Sam will have to butt into their territory because of the nature of her character.

Imagine if Cameron Mitchell had appeared on SG-1 when Jack was still head of SG-1. And imagine him taking up a large role (14 episodes). Or imagine Rodney being brought on for 14 episodes in one of the first 7 seasons of SG-1, butting into Sam's territory. Or imagine Jonas sharing screen time with Daniel.

You see the problems with multiple character whose roles are the similar?

the dancer of spaz
February 15th, 2007, 08:16 AM
<snip>


Imagine if Cameron Mitchell had appeared on SG-1 when Jack was still head of SG-1. And imagine him taking up a large role (14 episodes). Or imagine Rodney being brought on for 14 episodes in one of the first 7 seasons of SG-1, butting into Sam's territory. Or imagine Jonas sharing screen time with Daniel.

You see the problems with multiple character whose roles are the similar?

Actually... Those scenarios seem kinda cool on the surface. For one thing, we would've most definitely seen the guy as a major (which is what he should've been), and we would've gotten to see McKay and Carter interact more, which would've firmly cemented their friendship later on down the road.

<snip>

Nope. I don't see the connection. Sam can come onto the show and interact with the others. She doesn't have to cancel them out. There are still loads of things that the Atlantis characters know about Atlantis and the Wraith that she doesn't. She still has room to learn and grow in this position, without taking over everything.

I actually like the idea of seeing her need to be caught up, and taking an extra moment to digest intel... It's normal, because she hasn't been on Atlantis in that sort of capacity. And she wouldn't be used to that because when she's on SG-1 she's catching other people up. I think it could be cool.

psychofilly
February 15th, 2007, 08:41 AM
And who will be the one to pull the rabbit out of the hand at the last moment? Rodney? Sam? 50/50? All kinds of problems arise.

And yet again, like in the Pegasus Project they can pull a combined rabbit out of their combined hat...

Also as you mentioned, we do have Zelenka, and he is on par (or just below) Sam and McKay, and he gets ideas that save the city that McKay cribbs as his own, and he's not seen as taking over the show. And man, now I want to see a three way geek-out between those three.

Also, AT has another show. I have a feeling she's going to be content to remain a smaller player in Atlantis if it takes off.


Well, those quotes do make it seem like Elizabeth should listen to John when it comes to military decisions... but it's still ambiguous as to who has the final say. "Defer" just means "delay".

It also means "to delegate to another" "or to submit to another's wishes, opinion, or governance usually through deference or respect."

So not so ambiguous. The ambiguity and push and pull comes from when Weir has to let John take over, not that he can't.

<snip>

FallenAngelII
February 15th, 2007, 08:50 AM
But the problem is that Atlantis already has 3 rabbit-pullers: John, Rodney and Radek.

Do we need a 4th one (Sam)? 3 scientists who'll constantly compete for who can pull it first or constantly have to share the pulling or both? In an ensemble cast a huge as Atlantis? Not to mention the problem with "Why didn't X character think of it first?" and "Who'll be the one to mess this week so another character can step in and save the day?".

Considering the PTB's track record, the one making the most rabbit pulling and the least mistakes (if any) will be Sam. Which will be infinitely more annoying when she's sharing screen time with two other scientists.

Anyway, I've always been under the impression that Jonas is quite a hated character. Maybe not hated solely for replacing Daniel, but hated and less liked than the average character, nonetheless.

If you create a poll, it'll show a 50%/50% result (or probably worse if you're a Jonas fan) on whether people liked him or not.

For the record, I love Jonas. Except for his horrible crew cut.

ussrelativity
February 15th, 2007, 10:54 AM
I've been thinking more about Season 4, and when we can get more solid information, I'm thinking I may enjoy Season 4 more. I still won't enjoy it without Carson, but otherwise, it may still be good.

Merlin7
February 15th, 2007, 10:56 AM
First off, let me say that I absolutely hate the character of Carter and loathe the fact that she's coming to Atlantis. That said, I have no choice but to deal with the fact she's going to be in 14 eps. If it's true and Weir is only in about 4 eps, then it seems likely that Carter will replace Weir as leader. The only other option would be Shep as leader and he can't do it, nor would he want too. Nor do I want him too. Shep as leader in an ep or 2 in the beginning of season 4 is fine. That's cool. BUt he needs to stay the military leader and lead his team offworld. And be creative, along with Rodney, in saving Atlantis.

I won't really miss Weir. She made horrendously bad choices in the past 2 years. She never did anything that contributed to saving Atlantis. Going along with whatever Rodney or John or McShep came up with to save Atlantis is about all she did. As for needing someone with the ability to read Ancient, they could have Rodney take over that job. He reads some and I'm sure he can do a crash course. Her linguistic skills are hardly an issue. She really served no real use or purpose in Atlantis and she was never the heart or soul of Atlantis for me. That's Shep and his team.

So, bottom line, to answer the question. Yeah, Carter could replace Weir. Easily. Don't want her to cause I can't stand her, but I forsee it coming. And maybe the show will make Carter a civilian for some insane reason, like that Carter chooses to resign her commission to become a civilian or something ridiculous. It's sci fi after all. Anything outrageous can happen.

Skydiver
February 15th, 2007, 12:07 PM
For the LAST time

Keep the contract speculation out of it. (the topic is CARTER AND WEIR, not Amanda and Torri)

The Shanks s6 stuff is off topic

And if folks can't DISCUSS the topic without going overboard and getting all hot under the collar, the topic will go away.

ussrelativity
February 15th, 2007, 12:20 PM
Thinking further into the topic of Carter and Weir, I think that the IOA may have some other plans for Weir. Perhaps the IOA is looking to establish a senior governing council for Atlantis, as the Ancients had such a council 10,000 years ago. She may remain on Atlantis, but just not have a position in the military matters to interact with, like she did before. Carter may fill that position.

The Ori
February 16th, 2007, 05:20 AM
Maybe Carter will be promoted to General Carter you never know!! I'd like it!

Night Spring
February 16th, 2007, 06:24 AM
Maybe Carter will be promoted to General Carter you never know!! I'd like it!
Carter is a Lt. Colonel now, so in order to be promoted to General, she'd need to skip a rank -- way unlikely, even for Carter.

FallenAngelII
February 16th, 2007, 06:28 AM
Not to mention that it'd serve no purpose other than fan service. She'd already share the position of ranking officer with John. Should they want to, they could switch John out with her since they are both the same rank.

Actually, Sam already kinda outranks John because she's been a Lt. Colonel for a longer period of time than he has.

Skydiver
February 16th, 2007, 07:48 AM
the only promotion i see happening is Sam to full colonel, simply to clarify the rank issue. She does outrank shep, but giving her the higher rank will make that amply clear.

There's no way she'll go to general, not unless they have a movie set about 5-10 years in the future.

Making her a full bird would also fit in with her dealing with Caldwell and the other characters being added (i'm not up on all the s4 spoilers)

Caldwell would certainly rank her, but, like we've seen on the tomb, jack and the russian commander were the same rank, but jack was placed in command of the mission, thus the russian leader had to ceed to jack's authority.

kimaken
February 16th, 2007, 09:50 AM
I don't know that Carter will replace Weir, although I supoose it's possible. I'm at the point where I don't really care what Carter's role will be.

flynn1959
February 16th, 2007, 12:03 PM
Carter could never replace Weir, she doesn't compare in the least. Weir is a strong, intelligent, well rounded character. Carter is a joke, a simpering weak female with huge daddy issues. She has no place on Atlantis, we have suffered through ten long years of Carter on SG1, why on Earth would we want her to ruin Atlantis.

I like Weir, she deserved better than this, as did TH.

Carter couldn't replace a floor tile, let alone a well loved character like Weir.

flynn1959
February 16th, 2007, 12:05 PM
I don't know that Carter will replace Weir, although I supoose it's possible. I'm at the point where I don't really care what Carter's role will be.

If they hadn't moved the city, Carter would have come in handy as whale bait!

Konrad9
February 16th, 2007, 12:23 PM
Wow.
I've never seen such whining on the internet as in this thread..
Honestly, if you've got this many issues with the show, either stop watching or apply for a job to be a director.

I can see Carter replacing Weir, maybe, but it would be a very strange move.
However, it says she "arrives on her own ship."
...
Atlantis is a ship.

SamJackShipLover
February 16th, 2007, 01:08 PM
I haven't read this thread and don't even watch SGA, but I thought I let you know there has been a online chat with Amanda today, and I think you might be interested in this part:

<ATC_Sandy> And Elyse writes: I'd like to know about what your role will on be Atlantis (that you can tell us, of course). What do you see Carter doing on Atlantis and how would that affect her dynamic with the SG1 what with the SG1 movies and all?

<amanda_tapping> I don't think she'll be going out on missions with the Atlantis Crew


But maybe you already knew this so feel free to ignore this post :)

Uber
February 16th, 2007, 01:24 PM
I haven't read this thread and don't even watch SGA, but I thought I let you know there has been a online chat with Amanda today, and I think you might be interested in this part:

<ATC_Sandy> And Elyse writes: I'd like to know about what your role will on be Atlantis (that you can tell us, of course). What do you see Carter doing on Atlantis and how would that affect her dynamic with the SG1 what with the SG1 movies and all?

<amanda_tapping> I don't think she'll be going out on missions with the Atlantis Crew


But maybe you already knew this so feel free to ignore this post :)Yeah we posted questions that we knew Amanda doesn't know the answer to because she said she doesn't know yet.

But we still had to post 'em because people asked 'em. :)

SamJackShipLover
February 16th, 2007, 01:26 PM
Yeah we posted questions that we knew Amanda doesn't know the answer to because she said she doesn't know yet.

But we still had to post 'em because people asked 'em. :)
OK, when she sais: "I don't think she'll be going out on missions with the Atlantis Crew" it really is what she thinks, not what she knows?

jons242
February 16th, 2007, 01:33 PM
why would carter replace weir? she's the same rank as sheppard ...

Not sure if there the same rank, in First Strike Colonel Abe Ellis seems to out rank Shepard. I think Shepard is a Lt-Colonel and I think Carter is a full Colonel. I could be be wrong though. I also think if she has her own ship she would be a full Colonel.

Uber
February 16th, 2007, 01:42 PM
OK, when she sais: "I don't think she'll be going out on missions with the Atlantis Crew" it really is what she thinks, not what she knows?Yeah...that looked like her personal opinion about what she thinks her role will be.

Uber
February 16th, 2007, 01:44 PM
Not sure if there the same rank, in First Strike Colonel Abe Ellis seems to out rank Shepard. I think Shepard is a Lt-Colonel and I think Carter is a full Colonel. I could be be wrong though. I also think if she has her own ship she would be a full Colonel.Colonel Ellis is a full bird colonel, as is Caldwell. Both Sam and Shep are light colonels, but Sam has more time in grade than Shep.

Cameron Mitchel
February 16th, 2007, 01:56 PM
My view on this is (for one, I don't hate Carter as a character, i mean, she's a good character), the show really doesn't need her, and is the show really gonna be better with her? Also, will she get in the way of the other characters? Those are my questions. And, for the comment that Carter outranks Sheppard... She doesn't outrank him. She's been a Lt. Colonel longer than he has, but that doesn't mean she outranks him, and it certainly doesn' mean she'll boss him around, or be over him.

Uber
February 16th, 2007, 02:16 PM
My view on this is (for one, I don't hate Carter as a character, i mean, she's a good character), the show really doesn't need her, and is the show really gonna be better with her? Also, will she get in the way of the other characters? Those are my questions. And, for the comment that Carter outranks Sheppard... She doesn't outrank him. She's been a Lt. Colonel longer than he has, but that doesn't mean she outranks him, and it certainly doesn' mean she'll boss him around, or be over him.Well she's had more time in grade than Shep...but that's not the point. Chances are, if she's brought over to lead the city, she'll be a full bird colonel. If that's the case, then she would outrank Shep and, yes, that would mean ordering him around.

jenks
February 16th, 2007, 02:53 PM
Question: Could Carter replace Weir?
Answer: Yes

Real Question: Should Carter replace Weir
Answer: In my opinion no, I think it would just be replacing one bad leader with another.

Mitchell82
February 16th, 2007, 04:53 PM
Question: Could Carter replace Weir?
Answer: Yes

Real Question: Should Carter replace Weir
Answer: In my opinion no, I think it would just be replacing one bad leader with another.

Agreed and I don't see them going in that direction.

Irish Eyes
February 16th, 2007, 08:16 PM
I totally get the POV of people that are upset about Weir and Carson being gone and reduced.

Thank you! I wish more people understood, but I see a lot of comments to the effect that as long as the "team" isn't messed with, everything's good. See, for me, Atlantis is about the expedition and the city. The team is in this equation, but it's not the whole.

As far as the Carter vs. Weir debate, both of them bring different abilities to the table. At the end of the day, they can both do the job. So maybe the question isn't could Carter replace Weir, but should she? My answer is no (of course!):P First, character wise, Carter obviously is military so if it plays out that Weir is totally written off after a few eps, then the show has lost one of the few civilians we see which in my mind takes it a step closer to losing what is different about the show.

Second, we've seen time and again how the expedition feels about Weir. They are loyal to her to the nth degree. Well, maybe not Kavanaugh.;) Anyway, if Carter were to assume command, I'm sure they would respect her, but I don't think she would have their loyalty, at least at first. It might be interesting to see that play out actually.

As far as those who think Weir is a bad leader, well, I'm sure you know the writers made her decisions for her. If Carter takes over, we'll see how her decisions play out.

Obviously I want Weir to stay on the show. I'm hoping for the best, but prepared for the worst. I really want to keep loving this show; time will tell.

FallenAngelII
February 17th, 2007, 03:43 AM
Wow.
I've never seen such whining on the internet as in this thread..
Honestly, if you've got this many issues with the show, either stop watching or apply for a job to be a director.

I can see Carter replacing Weir, maybe, but it would be a very strange move.
However, it says she "arrives on her own ship."
...
Atlantis is a ship.
So basically it's "Shut up and accept everything lying down" or "Stop watching"? What's wrong with people who think that complaining about certain aspects of a show instead of praising everything about it as pure genius is a mortal sin?

Ltcolshepjumper
February 17th, 2007, 02:30 PM
Wow.
I've never seen such whining on the internet as in this thread..
Honestly, if you've got this many issues with the show, either stop watching or apply for a job to be a director.

I can see Carter replacing Weir, maybe, but it would be a very strange move.
However, it says she "arrives on her own ship."
...
Atlantis is a ship.

It's not her ship. and, when it says arrives, it doesn't mean arrives to, it means arrives with.

corky
February 17th, 2007, 04:29 PM
I don't think so a military officer could never take over atlantis. ( i heard it in an atlantis commentary once)

keshou
February 18th, 2007, 07:03 AM
I think it's very possible that Carter *will* replace Weir. I personally like the conflict between the civilian and military roles in Atlantis but there have been hints that Atlantis may go to a more military stance in S4. The Carter character - with her strong scientific background - may be a compromise that the civilian leadership back on Earth might accept as leader of the expedition.

The other possible role for Carter would be to serve as the Caldwell character did. On her own ship, in sort of a military oversight role.

But the hints from Brad Wright's interview - that Weir would be "back for awhile".....sound to me as if she won't be located on Atlantis anymore. So I'm leaning towards Carter replacing Weir. And probably being promoted to full bird Colonel.

I can understand why the fans of Weir are upset - I would be as well if she were my favorite character. I don't think she's going to have a huge presence in S4, although she'll still be around in some capacity.

ToasterOnFire
February 18th, 2007, 11:53 AM
I think Carter certainly could replace Weir and I do think that it's likely to happen next season.

Back at the end of season two I was actually pushing for Weir to lose her command due to the Michael incident, thus giving her an arc where she fought back and eventually regained command, stronger than ever. I thought it would be a great opportunity to develop and strengthen her character. But now I don't think it's such a great idea because a) I don't think TPTB would use such an opportunity to work on Weir and b) I'm not so sure TPTB will put her back in charge now... :S

Wormhole
February 18th, 2007, 01:32 PM
I share your concern about that. I don't think they have the 'best' interests of the character at heart. I honestly believe she'll be sacrificed to make room in the cast for SG1 characters to make 'recurring' appearances (though how 14 episodes can be called recurring when a regular character like Beckett apparently had 15 eps in season 2)

I really think it's a mistake. They don't realise how popular this character is. They haven't looked at the fact the chemistry she shares with Sheppard and McKay is a big part of the reason people tune in...

It's rather demoralising... and it (as shadowmaat has said) gives the impression that TPTB are trying to keep SG1 going by repopulating Atlantis with one of their favourites and offering the others guest spots.

Here I was, thinking Atlantis was its own show. Obviously I was mistaken. The problem is, while I've watched both shows, there are a hell of a lot of Atlantis fans who have zero interest in SG1 or its characters. About 50 percent, I'd say, based on the people I've had contact with...

When I first saw Atlantis I thought nothing of it and turned it off thinking this is just another remake of SG1, by chance I came across it again on Channel 5 and saw Letters From Pegasus when I saw all the flashbacks I thought to myself what the hell have I missed.

The first thing that caught my eye was the chemistry between these three :sheppard: :mckay: :weir: and the flashbacks were nothing like what I expected to see from the show.

I agree Atlantis was its own show by rights and like Deep Space Nine probably could have worked without the Stargate on the front.

Now my worst fears have come to pass and it’s turning into SG1. I was never a big fan of the show, I even turned that of once the cast started to change... I gave that a second chance (was that a mistake) the human form Replicators really put me of. Now it’s happing all over again. Why can’t they be content with what they have and what works. Leave it be, work on it don’t change it.

ReganX
February 18th, 2007, 01:37 PM
You know what? I'm really getting tired of people blaming Amanda for what's happening to Torri. Did you ever think that they could be cutting Torri's time before they made a decision about Amanda? It's just as possible as your "cause and effect". There is no proof either way and it just generates bad feeling towards Amanda in certain circles. Both Torri and Amanda do not deserve crap like this and they are both very considerate people and I'm sure they'd be appalled at the personal stuff certain fans are pushing.

And before you object and say you're not blaming Amanda go back and read exactly what you wrote. TPTB have made decisions that affect several actors but you imply that Torri was cut for Amanda and nowhere do you mention your outrage at TPTB. Constantly phrasing it as you do implies it's Amanda's fault. Torri is being made recurrent and that is all we know, rage about TPTB for making that decision but leave Amanda out of it.

I understand your ire at what is happening to Torri because I share it but please stop implying that it is Amanda's fault.

Chances are, the contracts for Season Four of Atlantis were arranged around the same time as the contracts for a possible eleventh season of SG-1 were, if not sooner.

We have no way of knowing exactly what prompted the decision to bring AT over to Atlantis, or the decision to make Weir a recurring character (which could mean anything from one to nineteen episodes, right?) instead of a regular.

We also don't know when these decision were made. It's very possible that Sam was going to spend a significant number of episodes on Atlantis even if SG-1 was still going to have an eleventh season

I think it's rather unfair to all concerned to assume the worst, that one actor was pushed aside simply to make room for another, without proof.

Atlantis Team member
February 18th, 2007, 02:01 PM
There is no point to kill Weir. I can see a story arc involving the power struggle between Weir and the military that leads to Carter being in command temporarily. That would make some interesting stories.



I agree I would hate to see Torri go, My guess is that Landry will temporarily
place Carter in Command :sam: and Weir:weir: is made her advisor? She will be in charge of all the civilians but I see Carter and Sheppard being the 2 top military people there.:sheppard: Hopefully the new situation will work out
of all in a good way. I hope.

Ltcolshepjumper
February 18th, 2007, 03:37 PM
I'm hoping that the whole purpose for her having a ship is that she won't be taking over as leader of Atlantis. If she was I'd expect them to make her regular instead of recurring. And, if she will be leader, I want many more team( Sheppard, Mckay, teyla, and ronon) eps and fewer city eps. The focus should not be on Carter.

Atlantis1
February 18th, 2007, 04:02 PM
Weir should remain leader of Atlantis. Carter really has no reason to be on the show. Atlantis has reason to have military presence there but it should not become militarized. If that were to happen then we would loose all hopes of exploring Atlantis because that would not be one of the reasons for being there anymore. We have Sheppard as military leader on Atlantis. Carter is really needed in the Milky way to fight the battle there.

Ltcolshepjumper
February 18th, 2007, 04:59 PM
Carter, in my mind, couldn't really replace Weir. I truly believe that TPTB have written her character, over the course of 10 years, as a character who isn't in top leadership positions. her in command of the odyssey in Shroud looked forced and was very peculiar IMO. I truly believe that she isn't the type that sits at a desk and gives orders, if you can picture what I mean. She is more like a field commander, if anything.

nowvoyager908
February 18th, 2007, 05:55 PM
Weir should remain leader of Atlantis. Carter really has no reason to be on the show. Atlantis has reason to have military presence there but it should not become militarized. If that were to happen then we would loose all hopes of exploring Atlantis because that would not be one of the reasons for being there anymore. We have Sheppard as military leader on Atlantis. Carter is really needed in the Milky way to fight the battle there.


ITA, especially about Atlantis. The whole reason for SGA to be in existence is discovering and exploring Atlantis, but somehow the city and the Ancients have become a sideshow instead of the main event. That is a wasted opportunity.

Uber
February 18th, 2007, 07:11 PM
ITA, especially about Atlantis. The whole reason for SGA to be in existence is discovering and exploring Atlantis, but somehow the city and the Ancients have become a sideshow instead of the main event. That is a wasted opportunity.Actually, the whole reason for Atlantis was to find a way to protect earth.

In Lost City, they were looking for the lost city of the ancients because Anubis was a pressing threat and they believed that perhaps there'd be ancient weapons and such that would help them. Now, they did dispatch Anubis in Lost City, but the clear and present danger remained. They had every reason to fear an attack from the system lords and hoped and believe the Atlantis expedition would find something to help. But then of course they were cut off from earth.

So yes, they wanted to explore the city and see what information was there...primarily to protect and defend earth and secondarily to learn more about scientific/medical/whatever advances.

Killdeer
February 18th, 2007, 07:16 PM
I'm hoping that the whole purpose for her having a ship is that she won't be taking over as leader of Atlantis. If she was I'd expect them to make her regular instead of recurring. And, if she will be leader, I want many more team( Sheppard, Mckay, teyla, and ronon) eps and fewer city eps. The focus should not be on Carter.

I have to agree with you here. But I have a question, and this is for anyone. Is Carter really going to be a "recurring" character, or a "regular" character? We know she's in 14 episodes, but I haven't seen anything that says for sure she's recurring, as opposed to having a place in the main credits. I'm not trying to be argumentative - I really want to know, and it's something I haven't been able to get a definitive answer on. I apologize if this is not the appropriate place to ask, and I'm not trying to sidetrack the discussion. I just thought someone might have some information I wasn't aware of.

nowvoyager908
February 18th, 2007, 07:29 PM
Actually, the whole reason for Atlantis was to find a way to protect earth.

In Lost City, they were looking for the lost city of the ancients because Anubis was a pressing threat and they believed that perhaps there'd be ancient weapons and such that would help them. Now, they did dispatch Anubis in Lost City, but the clear and present danger remained. They had every reason to fear an attack from the system lords and hoped and believe the Atlantis expedition would find something to help. But then of course they were cut off from earth.

So yes, they wanted to explore the city and see what information was there...primarily to protect and defend earth and secondarily to learn more about scientific/medical/whatever advances.

Very interesting. I've never been a fan of SG1, and I imagine there are many of us in the same boat. I don't think this "background" has ever been clearly stated on SGA, at least not that I can recall. I think many of us are of the impression that the expedition went to Atlantis to explore the city, maybe meet an Ancient or two, and of course, discover any technology that could help back on earth, though not necessarily in a defensive posture. If this is incorrect, or incomplete, than TPTB did a poor job of setting up the show's premise from scene one. I could be mistaken (it has happened once or twice ;) ), but apparently some pretty big pieces of the puzzle are missing.

Uber
February 18th, 2007, 07:35 PM
I've never been a fan of SG1, and I imagine there are many of us in the same boat. I don't think this "background" has ever been clearly stated on SGA, at least not that I can recall. I think many of us are of the impression that the expedition went to Atlantis to explore the city, maybe meet an Ancient or two, and of course, discover any technology that could help back on earth, though not necessarily in a defensive posture. If this is incorrect, or incomplete, than TPTB did a poor job of setting up the show's premise from scene one. I could be mistaken (it has happened once or twice ;) ), but apparently some pretty big pieces of the puzzle are missing.Perhaps. :)

I do remember that Joe Mallozzi said that they wanted to start the first year of Atlantis so that it was as separate from SG-1 as possible...but that they had always intended to merge things here and there with crossover stories and characters.

As a fan of both shows, I think they've done a pretty good job up until now and am curious to see how they'll transition Carter over. I hope it's done well, that she'll interact with them all to one degree or another and will positively influence the stories. As a fan of the character, I see great potential but just like everything else in life...it's all in the execution.

nowvoyager908
February 18th, 2007, 07:39 PM
Perhaps. :)
...it's all in the execution.

ICAM. This is the big question. We shall see.