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jenks
February 23rd, 2007, 03:28 PM
We may not know whether the decision to remove Torri was made before or after the decision to add AT, or whether the two decisions are related to each other, or the reasons for these decisions, but with AT being placed in the main credits, the end result *is* that AT is replacing TH. That is now a FACT.

I wouldn't say so, as far as we know, Torri might be in the opening credits aswell.

Ltcolshepjumper
February 23rd, 2007, 03:31 PM
I wouldn't say so, as far as we know, Torri might be in the opening credits aswell.

Really... Do you honestly believe that? Because I doubt she will be in the opening credits, based on her recurring status, and based on the fact that JM or any of tptb have failed to give any answer regarding the number of eps she will be in. If they haven't decided on that yet then she isn't going to be in the credits.

Cameron Mitchel
February 23rd, 2007, 03:33 PM
I wouldn't say so, as far as we know, Torri might be in the opening credits aswell.
Then you don't understand the meaning of *regular* and *recurring*.

jenks
February 23rd, 2007, 03:35 PM
Really... Do you honestly believe that? Because I doubt she will be in the opening credits, based on her recurring status, and based on the fact that JM or any of tptb have failed to give any answer regarding the number of eps she will be in. If they haven't decided on that yet then she isn't going to be in the credits.

First of all, it doesn't matter what I believe, I'm sick of idiots posting speculation as if it were fact. Second, Carter has a recurring status and she's on the opening credits, why not Weir?

Ltcolshepjumper
February 23rd, 2007, 03:37 PM
First of all, it doesn't matter what I believe, I'm sick of idiots posting speculation as if it were fact. Second, Carter has a recurring status and she's on the opening credits, why not Weir?

I think they may have said Carter would be recurring, but the current evidence points to her having regular status.

jenks
February 23rd, 2007, 03:43 PM
Then you don't understand the meaning of *regular* and *recurring*.

Yes, I do, you just haven't been paying attention.

Uber
February 23rd, 2007, 04:06 PM
You're welcome and right back at you!

And yes, I did mean AT has replaced TH. I thought it was okay to mention the actors talent or lack thereof on this forum. TH is a very talented actress, AT is not. I love TH's portryal of Wier, I hate the way AT plays Carter.

Carter/AT has replaced Weir/TH. In my opinion there is simply no comparision between them, actors or characters.

I have not bashed AT as a person, I have commented on her acting and her ability to replace another actor.Yes you sure have.

*yawn*

prion
February 23rd, 2007, 05:29 PM
First of all, it doesn't matter what I believe, I'm sick of idiots posting speculation as if it were fact. Second, Carter has a recurring status and she's on the opening credits, why not Weir?

Carter is not recurring. She's a regular. If you're in the main credits, you are a regular. If Weir is a recurring character, and not a regular, she won't be in the main credits. It's how it works.

Cameron Mitchel
February 23rd, 2007, 06:14 PM
Yes, I do, you just haven't been paying attention.
Carter is regular. Joining the cast means being regular. Being apart of the credits means being regular. Nowhere has a recurring member been on the credits. Get that point straight. So don't go assuming that TH will be on the credits. Cuz, that's not going to happen. I understand your attempts to make the situation look brighter, but it doesn't help. Cameron Mitchel out. TTYL

Agent_Dark
February 23rd, 2007, 06:19 PM
Carter is regular. Joining the cast means being regular. Being apart of the credits means being regular. Nowhere has a recurring member been on the credits. Get that point straight. So don't go assuming that TH will be on the credits. Cuz, that's not going to happen. I understand your attempts to make the situation look brighter, but it doesn't help. Cameron Mitchel out. TTYL

How about you stop assuming the worst case scenario? :rolleyes:

mikeroq
February 23rd, 2007, 07:05 PM
Here are some reasons supporting Carter as the leader of Atlantis:

The Air Force wants a stronger military presence

Here are some reasons against Carter as the leader:

Why would the IOA want an Air Force officer as the leader?
Why would the foremost expert on the Stargate leave Earth

I will add more as I think of them. I am no way against Carter coming to Atlantis, I for one love it! But, I don't see how she could be the leader. Its not fitting of her expertise and skill.

Killdeer
February 23rd, 2007, 07:49 PM
How about you stop assuming the worst case scenario? :rolleyes:

I don't think he is. It's been made pretty clear by the two news articles out this week that AT is going to be part of the main cast, and JM confirmed in his blog that she was going to be in the credits. I would also like to point out that the word "recurring" was never officially used, to my knowledge, in reference to AT's status in Season 4. Until recently, we were only told 14 episodes, and many of us assumed that meant recurring status. That's now been clarified, and we know that she will be a regular cast member, not recurring.

By contrast, I refer you to the Gateworld article on Jan 15, regarding TH's reduced status.


Torri Higginson ("Elizabeth Weir") will no longer be a main cast member in the fourth season of Stargate Atlantis, executive producer Brad Wright revealed in a new video interview now online at StargateSG1.com, MGM's official site for the series.

"Torri Higginson is coming back for some period of time," Wright said. "She's going to be a recurring character."
The rest of the article goes on to discuss the resulting possibilities for TH's character, and even the possibility that she may still stay in command, while in a greatly reduced role.

So, there is still room for speculation on whether or not Carter will replace Weir. :D What can no longer be argued is that AT will appear in the main credits and TH will not. That's been officially documented.

vaberella
February 23rd, 2007, 07:51 PM
There is no proof that Carter has been made leader. But since people like jumping the gun, I'll bloody well take the bait.

Carter, lets say the IOA wants a military presence, has extreme first hand knowledge of other planets and years of experience to boot with various enemies. 10 vs. 3 is a great deal, even if Weir is in another galaxy. She may not know the wraith, but I'm sure a more knowledgeable SG1 person can lay down a list of enemies that Carter's experience deals with---I just know the Ori.

Now that's a good point, but wouldn't RDA as O'Neill be the foremost, even higher than Carter? Plus they also have Daniel. So Carter is just one of three. RDA seemed to be an unspoken military official who even the IOA answers too, or has the power to override the IOA, this is based on what I've seen of The Return II---oh and The Rising.

As a reminder, she's again not made leader---she's most likely advisory head. There is no confirmation that Weir has lost her place as head of Atlantis.

Daniel Jackson
February 23rd, 2007, 07:58 PM
Here are reasons why I think Carter will replace Weir.

The Atlantis Expedition went through the Stargate when on a mission of exploration and discovery. Earth also had a civilian in charge of the SGC recently and likely wanted that same woman (now at the Ancient Outpost) to lead the expedition. However, after the awakening of the Wraith, the revelation to the Asurans that Atlantis is back, and the events of "First Strike," it is quite clear that Atlantis needs a soldier running things.

Weir has done a terrific job as leader, but let's face it... if you were on Earth and knew about Atlantis, would you want a diplomat or a soldier in charge? I would prefer a soldier, but only if I was unaware of Weir's accomplishments.

Carter is a brilliant scientist, and Atlantis doubles as a giant space ship. Given it's very nature, it makes since to have a scientist in charge instead of a linguist. Dr. Weir can read Ancient, but so can McKay. We may hear him complain about how he's a scientist, not a translator. :mckay:

Carter lead several SG-1 missions over the coarse of SG-1's first 7 seasons before taking command in Season 8. Her accomplishments in Seasons 9 & 10 have been astounding. Carter has proved she can be a great leader.

In review, Carter is likely replacing Weir for her military and scientific expertise.

Daniel Jackson
February 23rd, 2007, 08:00 PM
There is no confirmation that Weir has lost her place as head of Atlantis.
Tapping has taken Higginson's place in the opening credits. That's all the confirmation I need. ;)

vaberella
February 23rd, 2007, 08:16 PM
Carter is regular. Joining the cast means being regular. Being apart of the credits means being regular. Nowhere has a recurring member been on the credits. Get that point straight. So don't go assuming that TH will be on the credits. Cuz, that's not going to happen. I understand your attempts to make the situation look brighter, but it doesn't help. Cameron Mitchel out. TTYLHow about you stop assuming the worst case scenario? :rolleyes:

You mean...flagellate his point to death. :rolleyes: Condescending much?!:mckay:

vaberella
February 23rd, 2007, 08:39 PM
Tapping has taken Higginson's place in the opening credits. That's all the confirmation I need. ;)


Where did you hear that? It's news to me. Get your facts together before you make the comments. Nothing of that nature has been said to confirm, these are claims that are being spouted by...

I don't think I need to say more.:mckay:

RealmOfX
February 23rd, 2007, 08:52 PM
Well we now know officially that the decision(s) about Weir were made before other decisions were considered / made so can we now drop it and stop blaming Amanda for something she didn't do?

From JM's blog :

Allow me to clear up a assumption on your part, specifically the fait accompli belief that any creative decision made with regard to Weir was a result of Carter joining the show. In fact, the opposite is true. After a decision was made with regard to Weir, we entertained a number of possibilities - three in particular come to mind. In the end, we decided on Carter because - a) it’s something we’ve wanted to do for a while, and b) her strengths and backgrounds make her well-suited to the Atlantis environment. Holding the Samantha Carter responsible for any upcoming changes would be akin to holding the Cameron Mitchell character responsible for O’Neill’s departure or blaming the General Landry character for Hammond’s exit.

Uber
February 23rd, 2007, 08:55 PM
Here's some relevant tidbits about the whole Sam/Weir thing from Joe's blog:
Jessica writes: “You might want to ask David Hewlett about the boos he got when he mentioned that Amanda was going to be in 14 episodes at a recent con in the UK. That's right. People booed.”

Answer: Well, David Hewlett may have been surprised when a certain group of fans booed an actress for doing nothing more than accepting a job to help support her family, but me - not so much. What can I say? Congratulations to all those who embarrassed themselves and the performers who made the long trek to spend time with you all. Classy.

Jessica also writes: “Where is the logic in getting rid of two Atlantis fan favourites and risking losing their fans, just in the hope of getting a few people from SG1 to watch.”

Answer: Allow me to clear up a assumption on your part, specifically the fait accompli belief that any creative decision made with regard to Weir was a result of Carter joining the show. In fact, the opposite is true. After a decision was made with regard to Weir, we entertained a number of possibilities - three in particular come to mind. In the end, we decided on Carter because - a) it’s something we’ve wanted to do for a while, and b) her strengths and backgrounds make her well-suited to the Atlantis environment. Holding the Samantha Carter responsible for any upcoming changes would be akin to holding the Cameron Mitchell character responsible for O’Neill’s departure or blaming the General Landry character for Hammond’s exit.

Anonymous #2 writes: “…the fact that Amanda's in the opening credits with 14 episodes while you still can't come up with a number for Torri basically confirms it.”

Answer: Actually, all it confirms is that we don’t have a set number of episodes to confirm. Basically, it’s a lose-lose proposition for me. If I specify a set number of episodes or reveal my intention to bring a certain character back and, for whatever reason, plans fall through, I’m on the receiving end of brainless comments like -
Prion, February 23, 2007: “I've seen Mallozzi make plenty of 'promises' to fans that just don't pan out for one reason or another.”
On the other hand, if I hedge my bets with a more hopeful response along the lines of “It’s possible” and “Maybe”, or try to stay mum on unaired episodes, this will result in equally brainless comments like -
Prion, February 22, 2007: “I read the chicago tribune article and he was asked about season 3, definitely, and avoided answering specific questions. his blog is amusing, but not very informative.”Funny but that reminds me a lot of what I suggested might be true. The decision about Weir was FIRST and would have happened whether Carter came on board or not.

P-90_177
February 23rd, 2007, 09:04 PM
There's a good reaso why carter won't be leader. And that's that she isn't a good one. That's why they got mitchell.

RealmOfX
February 23rd, 2007, 09:04 PM
I don't think he is. It's been made pretty clear by the two news articles out this week that AT is going to be part of the main cast, and JM confirmed in his blog that she was going to be in the credits. I would also like to point out that the word "recurring" was never officially used, to my knowledge, in reference to AT's status in Season 4. Until recently, we were only told 14 episodes, and many of us assumed that meant recurring status. That's now been clarified, and we know that she will be a regular cast member, not recurring.

By contrast, I refer you to the Gateworld article on Jan 15, regarding TH's reduced status.


The rest of the article goes on to discuss the resulting possibilities for TH's character, and even the possibility that she may still stay in command, while in a greatly reduced role.

So, there is still room for speculation on whether or not Carter will replace Weir. :D What can no longer be argued is that AT will appear in the main credits and TH will not. That's been officially documented.

Sorry to point out a flaw in your logic BUT the only thing officially documented (re bolded part) is that AT will be in the credits. You have made an assumption about TH being in the credits, the time when anyone can state as fact about what is and isn't going to be in the credits in when an official makes a statement or we get to see them.

It is logical that with Weir being made recurring that there is a possibility TH may not be in the opening credits however as there are many things that go into deciding who goes into the credits (and where), until we get solid information on the subject everything is an assumption regardless of how educated the process used in arriving at that assumption.

Uber
February 23rd, 2007, 09:09 PM
There's a good reaso why carter won't be leader. And that's that she isn't a good one. That's why they got mitchell.*thinks back to last season*

That's not what I remember. To my recollection, SG-1 had disbanded and Mitchell took over a non-existent team. In fact, for quite awhile, SG-1 was comprised of "SG-Me"...as Mitchell quipped.

I recall no scene in which anyone stated that Carter was a bad leader and therefore command was to be stripped from her and given to the new guy.

Night Spring
February 23rd, 2007, 09:17 PM
It is logical that with Weir being made recurring that there is a possibility TH may not be in the opening credits...
I beg to disagree. If a character is recurring, that by definition means the actor portraying that character won't be in the opening credits, because opening credits are reserved for the main cast. I'm unaware of any definition of "recurring" that would allow a recurring character to be a member of the main cast.

Uber
February 23rd, 2007, 09:22 PM
I beg to disagree. If a character is recurring, that by definition means the actor portraying that character won't be in the opening credits, because opening credits are reserved for the main cast. I'm unaware of any definition of "recurring" that would allow a recurring character to be a member of the main cast.Probably right.

But at least we have official confirmation that the Weir decision came WAY first and how to handle it came later. Per Joe M's blog:
Jessica also writes: “Where is the logic in getting rid of two Atlantis fan favourites and risking losing their fans, just in the hope of getting a few people from SG1 to watch.”

Answer: Allow me to clear up a assumption on your part, specifically the fait accompli belief that any creative decision made with regard to Weir was a result of Carter joining the show. In fact, the opposite is true. After a decision was made with regard to Weir, we entertained a number of possibilities - three in particular come to mind. In the end, we decided on Carter because - a) it’s something we’ve wanted to do for a while, and b) her strengths and backgrounds make her well-suited to the Atlantis environment. Holding the Samantha Carter responsible for any upcoming changes would be akin to holding the Cameron Mitchell character responsible for O’Neill’s departure or blaming the General Landry character for Hammond’s exit.Hopefully people will stop blaming the actress and the character for things that took place before she was even a consideration.

Killdeer
February 23rd, 2007, 09:30 PM
Sorry to point out a flaw in your logic BUT the only thing officially documented (re bolded part) is that AT will be in the credits. You have made an assumption about TH being in the credits, the time when anyone can state as fact about what is and isn't going to be in the credits in when an official makes a statement or we get to see them.

It is logical that with Weir being made recurring that there is a possibility TH may not be in the opening credits however as there are many things that go into deciding who goes into the credits (and where), until we get solid information on the subject everything is an assumption regardless of how educated the process used in arriving at that assumption.


uh...ok. I have to admit I'm really confused here. Maybe we're not defining our words in the same way. So here's my definitions.

cast member is "main" or "regular" = appear in regular credits
Examples: RDA, Christopher Judge, Don S. Davis

cast member is "recurring" = do not appear in regular credits, name appears after episode title. Examples: Teryl Rothery, David Nykl, Gary Jones.

So when Brad Wright says Torri is "recurring" and "not part of the main cast".... Doesn't that follow that she will not be in the main credits? I'm really trying to understand what you're saying here, but I can't think of any recurring character that's ever been listed in the main credits. Unless, of course, we are not defining "recurring" the same way. What are your definitions of "regular" and "recurring"?

By the way, none of what I said earlier was intended as blame toward AT. How I feel about her character (Carter) coming over is irrelevant to how I feel about the actress herself. I know nothing about her-how could I blame her? I don't think it was the wisest decision to bring her character over, but that's only my opinion, and it's up to TPTB, not the actress. So no, no blame being cast toward AT here.

I hope this isn't taken as an attack on my part....just trying to come to an understanding here. :o Thanks.

travis
February 23rd, 2007, 09:32 PM
Probably right.

But at least we have official confirmation that the Weir decision came WAY first and how to handle it came later. Per Joe M's blog:Hopefully people will stop blaming the actress and the character for things that took place before she was even a consideration.

I sure no one blames the actress she's just doing her job.

It's just that its in our nature to be defensive and protective to what we adore and cherish wheather it's fictional or not. It's also instictual of us to be loyal and territorial. On the other hands we are creature that are very adaptable, give us time and let the dust settle things will smooth out but for some it might never happen according to the out come.

Uber
February 23rd, 2007, 09:34 PM
I sure no one blames the actress she's just doing her job.You'd hope that'd be the case but sadly it isn't so.
It's just that its in our nature to be defensive and protective to what we adore and cherish wheather it's fictional or not. It's also instictual of us to be loyal and territorial. On the other hands we are creature that are very adaptable, give us time and let the dust settle things will smooth out but for some it might never happen according to the out come.Sure.

And as an Atlantis fan, and heck...just as a FAN in general, I get the way people are feeling. But now we know some important facts...and that is that whatever people feel about the decisions that were made, Weir was NOT removed to make room for Carter.

RealmOfX
February 23rd, 2007, 09:39 PM
I beg to disagree. If a character is recurring, that by definition means the actor portraying that character won't be in the opening credits, because opening credits are reserved for the main cast. I'm unaware of any definition of "recurring" that would allow a recurring character to be a member of the main cast.

My post was about pointing out a flaw in the logic of the previous poster. It is indeed a possibility that someone wouldn't be in the credits if they are a recurring character but it is not a FACT and we can't state anything as FACT until we get an official statement or we see the credits.

Ah, but don't you see your logic is flawed too. You are assuming that a definition of main and recurring determines who is in the opening credits - definitely a flawed assumption. Like I said, there are many things that determine who goes into credits and without knowing what is in anyone's contract I can't state with any certainty on what is fact. We can make educated guesses about possibilities but until we know for sure from official sources we cannot state anything as FACT. And THAT was the point of my post - addressing the flawed logic of the previous poster.

RealmOfX
February 23rd, 2007, 09:53 PM
uh...ok. I have to admit I'm really confused here. Maybe we're not defining our words in the same way. So here's my definitions.

cast member is "main" or "regular" = appear in regular credits
Examples: RDA, Christopher Judge, Don S. Davis

cast member is "recurring" = do not appear in regular credits, name appears after episode title. Examples: Teryl Rothery, David Nykl, Gary Jones.

So when Brad Wright says Torri is "recurring" and "not part of the main cast".... Doesn't that follow that she will not be in the main credits? I'm really trying to understand what you're saying here, but I can't think of any recurring character that's ever been listed in the main credits. Unless, of course, we are not defining "recurring" the same way. What are your definitions of "regular" and "recurring"?

By the way, none of what I said earlier was intended as blame toward AT. How I feel about her character (Carter) coming over is irrelevant to how I feel about the actress herself. I know nothing about her-how could I blame her? I don't think it was the wisest decision to bring her character over, but that's only my opinion, and it's up to TPTB, not the actress. So no, no blame being cast toward AT here.

I hope this isn't taken as an attack on my part....just trying to come to an understanding here. :o Thanks.

No, no I was just pointing out a flaw in logic, no hard feelings. Communication with just text can be difficult at times.

It is definitely possible that a recurring character may not be in the main credits however many things can determine who goes into the main credits not just whether you are a main character or not. For all I know there could be a contract out there that has a clause in it that in exchange for an exclusive 5 year contract that X gets to remain in the credits even if they are not full time - who knows? And that is the point, we don't know facts about TH but we can deduce possibilities. At this point in time we cannot state anything as fact regarding TH and the main credits as there is simply not enough information from official sources available.

Night Spring
February 23rd, 2007, 09:59 PM
however many things can determine who goes into the main credits not just whether you are a main character or not.
I'm sorry, but I've never seen a case in US televison where someone who wasn't a main cast member was in the opening credits of a TV show. Do you have any concrete examples of this?

P-90_177
February 23rd, 2007, 10:03 PM
I meant more the writers than anything. But personally I don't think carter is not a good commanding officer. She doesn't think strategically. i love carter i just don't think she's leader material.

Mitchell82
February 23rd, 2007, 10:04 PM
Man all this negativity is depressing. Yes AT will be a regular and yes will be in the main cast credidts. That is a fact. These are rumors and some of these have gotten way out of hand including the bashing of actors. AT will replace TH,*rumor* and not confimed. TH will be leaving the show alltogether, *rumor* there is no need to bas AT as this is not her fault and it also does not mean that Tori or Weir will still not be an intergal part of the show. I think Carter is capable of replacing Weir and don't think she should and I just don't see this hapening. I truly believe TH will still be a big part of this show but even if I'm wrong I still think the show will be good since Weir isnt a big deal in my book ie my fav character but I still don't want her to leave.

Mitchell82
February 23rd, 2007, 10:07 PM
*thinks back to last season*

That's not what I remember. To my recollection, SG-1 had disbanded and Mitchell took over a non-existent team. In fact, for quite awhile, SG-1 was comprised of "SG-Me"...as Mitchell quipped.

I recall no scene in which anyone stated that Carter was a bad leader and therefore command was to be stripped from her and given to the new guy.

Neither do I and I agre she could do it but I like Weir enough that I'd hate to see her go but it does seem that her reduced role was Prior to the Carter thing so it's pointless to blame her. If she does leave I don't think it will end the show but I've been wrong before.

RealmOfX
February 23rd, 2007, 10:19 PM
I'm sorry, but I've never seen a case in US televison where someone who wasn't a main cast member was in the opening credits of a TV show. Do you have any concrete examples of this?

Night Spring you seem to have lost sight of the point I was making and that was about what you (general you) can logically say as FACT versus possibilities. I thought I was quite clear on FLAWED LOGIC.

The original statement that sparked my posts was this "What can no longer be argued is that AT will appear in the main credits and TH will not. That's been officially documented."

This has two parts

what supposedly cannot be argued
what's been officially documented


My post pointed out that that the only part that had been officially documented was that AT would be in the credits. I also pointed out that it can be argued about TH in the main credits because we do not have proof either way so it is therefore a possibility as opposed to an officially documented fact.

Uber
February 23rd, 2007, 10:25 PM
I meant more the writers than anything. But personally I don't think carter is not a good commanding officer. She doesn't think strategically. i love carter i just don't think she's leader material.Ah...okay. I thought you were stating it as a fact. But you're talking about your opinion of Sam and her abilities...which is fine.

I don't happen to agree with you but you are of course entitled to your opinion. :)

I think we've seen many instances of her thinking on her feet but usually it's in a supporting role, because that's where she served. When she's in command of something however, she gives orders and is authoritative...or rather to me she is authoritative.

But it's a muscle she hasn't had a chance to fully stretch yet as it wasn't her place to do so.

ann_sgcfan
February 23rd, 2007, 10:30 PM
Man all this negativity is depressing. Yes AT will be a regular and yes will be in the main cast credidts. That is a fact. These are rumors and some of these have gotten way out of hand including the bashing of actors. AT will replace TH,*rumor* and not confimed. TH will be leaving the show alltogether, *rumor* there is no need to bas AT as this is not her fault and it also does not mean that Tori or Weir will still not be an intergal part of the show. I think Carter is capable of replacing Weir and don't think she should and I just don't see this hapening. I truly believe TH will still be a big part of this show but even if I'm wrong I still think the show will be good since Weir isnt a big deal in my book ie my fav character but I still don't want her to leave.

I agree! Stop bashing AT for the decisions that TPTB made!! Any decision made about the Weir character was made before they knew AT was coming to Atlantis. I also think Carter can replace Weir. However, I really do hope that Weir stays on the show and nothing I have seen has indicated she will not. I look forward to seeing these two strong characters working together!

Mitchell82
February 23rd, 2007, 10:33 PM
I agree! Stop bashing AT for the decisions that TPTB made!! Any decision made about the Weir character was made before they knew AT was coming to Atlantis. I also think Carter can replace Weir. However, I really do hope that Weir stays on the show and nothing I have seen has indicated she will not. I look forward to seeing these two strong characters working together!

Thanks nice to see another positive view in here.

Bobby\Jolinar
February 23rd, 2007, 10:47 PM
Couldn't Weir just turn into what Daniel became for Season Six? She could ascend and interfere every so often or walk that fine line. I forsee this as a possible but not quite definite option. There wouldn't be a replacement then just not many ascended ancients that I've heard of running atlantis and I'm sure she will be helping them in much more significant ways in one realm while Carter could be in another.

Killdeer
February 23rd, 2007, 10:53 PM
No, no I was just pointing out a flaw in logic, no hard feelings. Communication with just text can be difficult at times.

True enough-and no hard feelings on this end either.


It is definitely possible that a recurring character may not be in the main credits however many things can determine who goes into the main credits not just whether you are a main character or not. For all I know there could be a contract out there that has a clause in it that in exchange for an exclusive 5 year contract that X gets to remain in the credits even if they are not full time - who knows? And that is the point, we don't know facts about TH but we can deduce possibilities. At this point in time we cannot state anything as fact regarding TH and the main credits as there is simply not enough information from official sources available.

Ok, I think that possibly where we're running into problems here is that you seem to be equating "main character" with "full-time" character. And I would say that by that definition you are correct-there could be some circumstances where a character would be in the credits but not appear full-time. But by my definition, they would still be a "main" character, just by virtue of being in the main credits. Whereas a "recurring" character is by definition not a "main" character and not part of the main credits. Seems logical to me....but I understand that it may not to you :D.


The original statement that sparked my posts was this "What can no longer be argued is that AT will appear in the main credits and TH will not. That's been officially documented."

This has two parts

what supposedly cannot be argued
what's been officially documented


My post pointed out that that the only part that had been officially documented was that AT would be in the credits. I also pointed out that it can be argued about TH in the main credits because we do not have proof either way so it is therefore a possibility as opposed to an officially documented fact.

Ok, I understand that you're having problems with this statement, because, yes, it is true, we do not yet have any statement that expressly states, "TH will not appear in the main credits". But my rationale is that Brad Wright's statement explicitly stating that TH will no longer be part of the main cast, and will be a recurring character for season 4 is exactly the same thing. To me, asking "So will Torri be in the main credits?" would be redundant, since he's already said she's recurring. That's kind of the point...no longer part of the main cast...no longer part of the main credits....action to consequence....logic! :D At least in my mind!

Anyway, that's how I see it, but if you don't that's ok. At this point, I think we should agree to disagree, because 1) I think we're wandering away from topic <looks around warily for moderator--eeep!>, and 2) there's probably a dozen posters wanting to wring both our necks for keeping up this point of discussion so long! <ducking and running> Sorry!! Last post on the subject I promise! Bye now.

Night Spring
February 23rd, 2007, 11:17 PM
But my rationale is that Brad Wright's statement explicitly stating that TH will no longer be part of the main cast, and will be a recurring character for season 4 is exactly the same thing. To me, asking "So will Torri be in the main credits?" would be redundant, since he's already said she's recurring. That's kind of the point...no longer part of the main cast...no longer part of the main credits....action to consequence....logic! :D At least in my mind!
What she said. In my view, and with my understanding of the definition of a "recurring character," it's flawed logic to suggest that a "recurring character" has any possibility of being in the main credits.

scarimor
February 24th, 2007, 12:02 AM
From JM's blog (http://josephmallozzi.blogspot.com/):


Jessica also writes: “Where is the logic in getting rid of two Atlantis fan favourites and risking losing their fans, just in the hope of getting a few people from SG1 to watch.”

Answer: Allow me to clear up a assumption on your part, specifically the fait accompli belief that any creative decision made with regard to Weir was a result of Carter joining the show. In fact, the opposite is true. After a decision was made with regard to Weir, we entertained a number of possibilities - three in particular come to mind. In the end, we decided on Carter because - a) it’s something we’ve wanted to do for a while, and b) her strengths and backgrounds make her well-suited to the Atlantis environment. Holding the Samantha Carter responsible for any upcoming changes would be akin to holding the Cameron Mitchell character responsible for O’Neill’s departure or blaming the General Landry character for Hammond’s exit.
Yep.

Bold mine. I wonder who/what the other two possibilities were. But I'm very glad they decided on Carter/AT :)

Linzi
February 24th, 2007, 12:38 AM
From JM's blog (http://josephmallozzi.blogspot.com/):

Yep.

Bold mine. I wonder who/what the other two possibilities were. But I'm very glad they decided on Carter/AT :)
I wondered that too. Very interesting news.

Willow'sCat
February 24th, 2007, 12:50 AM
There's a good reaso why carter won't be leader. And that's that she isn't a good one. That's why they got mitchell.
No they got Mitchell (from what I can tell of US TV shows) becasue he is um MALE. I don't think if Sam had of been male there would have been any casting of Mitchell, maybe casting another character but not a "leader". I see it as a move by tptb (whether they be Bridge Studio's, Skiffy or MGM) to keep with the same old same old by having a male in charge. I honestly believe if Jackson had of been military they would have tried to get him to be the new "leader" of SG-1! :rolleyes:

Anyway lets not forget they are characters, not real, so if the writers want a character to be a leader they will write them that way. ;) Now just because they stuffed up IMHO where Weir is concerned doesn't mean they couldn't get it right with Carter if that is what they want for season 4 of SGA. ;) But as I said US TV and strong female leader??? Nah that is why they had Weir in the first place she could be bossed around.

flynn1959
February 24th, 2007, 01:07 AM
How about you stop assuming the worst case scenario? :rolleyes:

But the worst case scenario has already happened, Carter on Atlantis...shudder!

flynn1959
February 24th, 2007, 01:15 AM
what you are saying is that TH is a much better actress than AT right? And that because of that, among other things, any effort to try to replace TH would be unwise.

Yes, thank you. Some people just cannot accept that others may have a lower opinion of AT as an ACTRESS. Nothing at all to do with AT as a person.

flynn1959
February 24th, 2007, 01:26 AM
Yes you sure have.

*yawn*

Okay let me try to make this very simple for you.

If I say that I think AT is a terrible mother who makes her kid eat from a trash can, that IS a form of personal attack that is not allowed on this forum and quite right too.

If I say that AT is a terrible actress, that is a form of personal attack that is, as far as I understand, allowed on this forum. I am allowed to critisize AT's creative decisions, I believe those decisions have led her to play the character of Carter badly, to the point of making her un-watchable.

Do I think that she, Carter/AT can replace Weir/TH? No. There is no comparison, one, TH is a very good actress, the other, AT is a very bad actress.

RealmOfX
February 24th, 2007, 02:01 AM
True enough-and no hard feelings on this end either.



Ok, I think that possibly where we're running into problems here is that you seem to be equating "main character" with "full-time" character. And I would say that by that definition you are correct-there could be some circumstances where a character would be in the credits but not appear full-time. But by my definition, they would still be a "main" character, just by virtue of being in the main credits. Whereas a "recurring" character is by definition not a "main" character and not part of the main credits. Seems logical to me....but I understand that it may not to you :D.



Ok, I understand that you're having problems with this statement, because, yes, it is true, we do not yet have any statement that expressly states, "TH will not appear in the main credits". But my rationale is that Brad Wright's statement explicitly stating that TH will no longer be part of the main cast, and will be a recurring character for season 4 is exactly the same thing. To me, asking "So will Torri be in the main credits?" would be redundant, since he's already said she's recurring. That's kind of the point...no longer part of the main cast...no longer part of the main credits....action to consequence....logic! :D At least in my mind!

Anyway, that's how I see it, but if you don't that's ok. At this point, I think we should agree to disagree, because 1) I think we're wandering away from topic <looks around warily for moderator--eeep!>, and 2) there's probably a dozen posters wanting to wring both our necks for keeping up this point of discussion so long! <ducking and running> Sorry!! Last post on the subject I promise! Bye now.

When did Brad Wright explicitly state TH will no longer be part of the main cast? Were you using the article you quoted as the basis for that statement? If so, then the article you quoted was Darren saying that not Brad.

This is what Brad Wright explicitly said "Torri Higginson is coming back for some period of time," Wright said. "She's going to be a recurring character." Which is quite different from what you said.

As far as I know there is no official definition for the terms being bandied about (Main, regular and recurring cast) and again AFAIK no official relation between those terms and whether or not you appear in the main credits. If there are I would be happy if you could point me in their direction. As far as I know where you appear in the credits is determined by your contract and many factors affect what goes into a contract. So all your assumptions are just that, assumptions.

Anyway, what I was disagreeing with was you saying it was a FACT that TH would not be in the credits, nothing more. Feel free to PM me if you want.



What she said. In my view, and with my understanding of the definition of a "recurring character," it's flawed logic to suggest that a "recurring character" has any possibility of being in the main credits.

So what is your definition of recurring??

Night Spring
February 24th, 2007, 02:14 AM
So what is your definition of recurring??
A character in a TV show who isn't one of the main cast but who appears in more than one episode.

For what it's worth: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Recurring_characters

Linzi
February 24th, 2007, 02:25 AM
Okay let me try to make this very simple for you.

If I say that I think AT is a terrible mother who makes her kid eat from a trash can, that IS a form of personal attack that is not allowed on this forum and quite right too.

If I say that AT is a terrible actress, that is a form of personal attack that is, as far as I understand, allowed on this forum. I am allowed to critisize AT's creative decisions, I believe those decisions have led her to play the character of Carter badly, to the point of making her un-watchable.

Do I think that she, Carter/AT can replace Weir/TH? No. There is no comparison, one, TH is a very good actress, the other, AT is a very bad actress.
AT a very bad actress? I can't agree with that. Whatever you think of Carter as a character, there is absolutely no way AT is a bad actress. You can say you're not convinced by her performances, or that her style of acting isn't your cup of tea, but she is not bad in any way. Anyone who can memorise miles of dialogue, as AT has, and be in a show for TEN years is not 'bad'. I'd say she must be damn good or she would have gotten the boot in an early season. Carter is also a tremendously popular character, and a bad actress wouldn't have as big a following as AT does if that were the case.
For the record I have always liked Carter, and always thought AT to be an excellent actress. I'm an SGA fan primarily, but a loyal SG1 viewer, and it really upsets me to see ANYONE called a bad actress/actor here, and that includes any actress/actor who I think is poor.
Also, I'm not someone who posts on AT/Carter threads, and am not being sensitve because I adore her to death. I'm just astounded at the bashing the actress is getting because a decision was made to reduce Weir's time on screen. I'm disgusted at the behaviour I've seen around here lately as well.

RealmOfX
February 24th, 2007, 02:26 AM
A character in a TV show who isn't one of the main cast but who appears in more than one episode.

For what it's worth: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Recurring_characters

:eek: you get your info from wikipedia? :eek:

Night Spring
February 24th, 2007, 02:30 AM
:eek: you get your info from wikipedia? :eek:
I just cited it to show I'm not the only one who defines "recurring character" in this manner.

Pitry
February 24th, 2007, 03:06 AM
From JM's blog (http://josephmallozzi.blogspot.com/):

Yep.

Bold mine. I wonder who/what the other two possibilities were. But I'm very glad they decided on Carter/AT :)

I'd wager on Teal'c being one. :)

Celcool
February 24th, 2007, 04:33 AM
I think I'm missing a strong female character there....

(sorry, til they actually bother and do somethign with Teyla's character I can't consider he a strong female character)
Well, to be absolutely honest, she isn't really. She was supposed to be from the start, you know, leader of her own people... but right now, she certainly isn't, she's good for standing around, looking good (to some), she has no real purpose anymore.

chocdoc
February 24th, 2007, 04:43 AM
Well we now know officially that the decision(s) about Weir were made before other decisions were considered / made so can we now drop it and stop blaming Amanda for something she didn't do?

From JM's blog :


I'm not surprised that their decision about Weir was not related to Carter. And you're right---blaming Amanda is inappropriate. It would be inappropriate regardless of whether or not the Carter and Weir decisions were related. I should also say that most posts I've seen that SGA fans have made have been careful to say that they like AT/Carter or that they have nothing against the actress, but don't like the fact that she is coming to SGA.



I wonder what their other two options were as well. I'm glad they went with AT/Carter though!

I like Weir, so I'm not happy about the Weir news. I think she is a woefully undeveloped character that deserves much more attention from the writers.

Commander Ivanova
February 24th, 2007, 05:53 AM
US TV and strong female leader??? Nah that is why they had Weir in the first place she could be bossed around.

Well, there's at least one I can remember. Janeway. She wasn't well liked by the fans tho

P-90_177
February 24th, 2007, 06:05 AM
i liked her. for some she's the best captain.

jenks
February 24th, 2007, 06:09 AM
Carter is regular. Joining the cast means being regular. Being apart of the credits means being regular. Nowhere has a recurring member been on the credits. Get that point straight. So don't go assuming that TH will be on the credits. Cuz, that's not going to happen. I understand your attempts to make the situation look brighter, but it doesn't help. Cameron Mitchel out. TTYL

Situation look brighter? I think I'm making it duller, I don't like Carter and I absolutely can't stand Weir (or atleast Torri's portrayal), I hope Weir dies in the first ep but I'm sure it won't happen...

bluealien
February 24th, 2007, 06:42 AM
Situation look brighter? I think I'm making it duller, I don't like Carter and I absolutely can't stand Weir (or atleast Torri's portrayal), I hope Weir dies in the first ep but I'm sure it won't happen...

I think her injuries will prevent her from coming back to Atlantis but I doubt she will die .

I have always enjoyed Carter but after 10 years she became a bit stale for me. Maybe being on Atlantis will peak my interest in her again. It will be intersting to see how the command structure is going to be handled as JM has indicated that Carter will be more of a supportive role. Maybe Sheppard will take over and Carter will be there as support when he goes off world. I would be happy with this and never really took to Weirs leadership anyway so IMO Carter would be quite capable of taking over from Weir.

Elite Anubis Guard
February 24th, 2007, 07:04 AM
You know what does make me laugh, how they wanted to keep the series seperate yet we've got all these crossovers now. And even retelling some stories!

vaberella
February 24th, 2007, 07:26 AM
You know what does make me laugh, how they wanted to keep the series seperate yet we've got all these crossovers now. And even retelling some stories!

Hmmm, it's kind of hard to do that, when certain characters opened the door to having the Wraith gain direct knowledge of Earth and it's location (thank you Weir :rolleyes: ). So when things like that happen, we will have to see a cross over. The Wraith are after food, if we had a stargate that worked dimensionally (a plan of mind, that I would love to see established), the wraith would be after that too. All in all, to protect one, other's experienced in protecting the other must come in to try to minimize the possible body count or at least protect earth to their own death from becoming an appetizer.

Basically, I don't see how they could keep these two shows apart (and their characters) completely. This is, of course, unless they have the Atlantis Ex, 'lost in space' so to speak.

As for scifi in general, all scifi things retell the same story. I'm not from an SG1 background, but X-Files. I can admittedly say if SG1 has it, X-Files had something similar in some way shape or form. And anyway have you seen any new scifi thrillers lately? Snakes in the plane was the last one I could come up with...:rolleyes: And skiffy is notorious with dragon flicks, if I didn't stop watching those horrid movies, I was going to hate dragons forever.

I'm not too concerned with originality, if I have a cool story and I can sit through it. I'd have stopped watching scifi a long time ago if originality was my main goal. Anyway, I think each show has it's own elements of originality the writers try to give us, and I like the show; so I'm good.

Jedted
February 24th, 2007, 08:12 AM
I figured since they don't need another person with McKay's scientific genius this might be a more logical role for her in season 4. Seeing as she's in the millitary i could see the IOA putting someone like Carter incharge of Atlantis.

Anyone else think this?

P-90_177
February 24th, 2007, 08:48 AM
Personally I don't see it happening. She'll be in command of her ship, not atlantis.

Cameron Mitchel
February 24th, 2007, 08:49 AM
No, they are making her in command... otherwise, I'm pretty certain there won't be a commander.

Cameron Mitchel
February 24th, 2007, 08:51 AM
I figured since they don't need another person with McKay's scientific genius this might be a more logical role for her in season 4. Seeing as she's in the millitary i could see the IOA putting someone like Carter incharge of Atlantis.

Anyone else think this?
But, the IOA don't really LIKE Carter, so that isn't a good excuse.

Keeper
February 24th, 2007, 08:52 AM
well, there's caudwell and sheppard who are effectively joint military commanders, or mckay... and to promote carter to leader over mckay is gonna cause friction i'd think. not to mention a long-term power struggle of neither wanting to ask for help.

rockerlad
February 24th, 2007, 09:38 AM
it think it will be a bad idea, let her command a ship not atlantis

Commander Ivanova
February 24th, 2007, 09:46 AM
I don't like Carter and I absolutely can't stand Weir (or atleast Torri's portrayal), I hope Weir dies in the first ep but I'm sure it won't happen...

Ha! Finally found something that Jenks and I agree on! ;)

Commander Ivanova
February 24th, 2007, 10:00 AM
Whether they put her in actual charge or not, my fear is that she will take the show over in other ways.

BJX
February 24th, 2007, 10:44 AM
I'd say it's probably the best bet that she will command but who knows. Personally, and this has nothing to do with carter, I would love to see Caldwell in charge of Atlantis simply because I love the character and I love Mitch Pilleggi and I so prefer him to Weir. I would prefer Carter to Weir but as a commander I could see more conflict and tension between Caldwell and Sheppard (especially if he took Weir's job) then between Carter and Sheppard, who are equal rank after all.

If Carter is to take command and I presume Amanda will not be on Atlantis next year if the show continues then maybe Caldwell will assume command in Season 5 or late in Season 4. I can hope. Whatever happens I'm really looking forward to season 4.

Uber
February 24th, 2007, 10:51 AM
But the worst case scenario has already happened, Carter on Atlantis...shudder!And that's why there's chocolate and vanilla...because for me...Carter on Atlantis...YEEHAW!!!!

Celcool
February 24th, 2007, 10:57 AM
And that's why there's chocolate and vanilla...because for me...Carter on Atlantis...YEEHAW!!!!
Who would've guessed? LMAO

Uber
February 24th, 2007, 11:06 AM
Okay let me try to make this very simple for you.

If I say that I think AT is a terrible mother who makes her kid eat from a trash can, that IS a form of personal attack that is not allowed on this forum and quite right too.

If I say that AT is a terrible actress, that is a form of personal attack that is, as far as I understand, allowed on this forum. I am allowed to critisize AT's creative decisions, I believe those decisions have led her to play the character of Carter badly, to the point of making her un-watchable.

Do I think that she, Carter/AT can replace Weir/TH? No. There is no comparison, one, TH is a very good actress, the other, AT is a very bad actress.Flynn, Flynn, Flynn.

I know what you meant as did everyone else. I've seen you say it countless times on this forum. I think that there's no doubt whatsoever that you dislike, nay verily, hate AT's acting.

WE GET IT.

We understood it when you clarified it on the Tapping Gates to Atlantis threads a few times, we got it the other places you posted your clarification about disliking Amanda's acting style in various other places and we get it yet again here. Perhaps you simply enjoy having the opportunity to express how little you like AT's acting yet again?

And while of course you're welcome to your opinions, is that all you have? Pretty much every post I've ever seen from you is some sort of complaint or dig about Carter. It seems like the bulk of your fandom, or at least a nice chunk of it, is spent simply fussing about Amanda and Carter.

Whatever.

But here's the thing. You don't need to continually clarify your position. I don't think anyone reading anything you've written will mistake you for a Carter fan. ;)

As for me...I'll follow your lead in reiterating the obvious. ;) I LOVE Carter. I think Amanda is probably the strongest and best actor on SG-1 and I look forward to seeing what happens to Sam in Atlantis. I look forward to the relationships she forms and the struggles she'll face in a new environment. I'm delighted to get more Carter next year, as I was sad that we'd have to say goodbye to seeing her regularly and I think she'll fit in like hand in glove.

I think as a matter of fact that there's a strong possibility we'll come back here this time next year (the universal "we" btw, not you and me) and talk about how we can't IMAGINE how SGA worked before Carter arrived.

So I say to Atlantis...bring it on.

Uber
February 24th, 2007, 11:06 AM
Who would've guessed? LMAOLOL I know! I've been so mute in my feelings thus far. :)

scarimor
February 24th, 2007, 12:22 PM
As for me...I'll follow your lead in reiterating the obvious. ;) I LOVE Carter.
A positive obsessive compulsive disorder is way healthier than a negative one, dontcha think? ;)


So I say to Atlantis...bring it on.
Yay! Sam on Atlantis! Bring it on!!! http://i44.photobucket.com/albums/f30/scarimor/soldiersciencesamani.gif

Atlantis1
February 24th, 2007, 01:44 PM
She is US military and the IOA don't really want the them in command. I still plan to watch season 4 but if things change too much, I will stop watching and since I am an SGA fan only now that will mean I will leave all of stargate. Sorry but I only watch what I like which is very, very little tv now.

Ltcolshepjumper
February 24th, 2007, 01:52 PM
I just can't understand why Carter would be chosen to lead Atlantis. Sure, supporters of the decision like to list all the reasons why she would be qualified, but I just can't possibly see why the IOA would choose her above so many others that they obviously could have in mind. Others such as Caldwell, who, despite not having the scientific knowledge, has had more experience in the Pegasus Galaxy and who's a full-fledged colonel, and probably has been for some time. Surely Carter doesn't need her scientific skills to lead. Weir didn't need it.

saberhagen83
February 24th, 2007, 02:12 PM
I suppose it's not impossible she could lead Atlantis, but I doubt she will. First of all they want this expedition to be lead by non-millitary. And I too think she will only command a ship. I get the feeling that AT isn't ready to commit to SGA on a long term, if the show goes past S4 that is. I can't see them putting her in charge of Atlantis for one year and then the show is renewed but she decides to leave, then what? She isn't bound to the franchise after that, at least I think not. Besides I can't see her behind a desk, more or less, just as I can't see Sheppard take on that role even though it is a possibility as well. Also the fact that she would have to be promoted first, or else the chain of command will be very fussy just as it is on SG1! But I can't see that happen, or else they would have to put her in charge in the SG1 movies, they can't have that. :rolleyes:

I will give S4 a chance. Just because Carter comes to SGA doesn't mean the end of the world. It could be interesting to see her in a new enviroment and to interact with new people. I think her character could be a bit different from how she is used and played out in SG-1. And I also think she could be used to develop and use more of other characters on the show, it doesn't always have to be a bad thing with change. I will wait and see before I judge, I'm going into the new season with lower expectations sure. But I think it still has the potential to be just as good as S3...hopefully even better. ;)

flynn1959
February 24th, 2007, 02:14 PM
Reasons why Carter will never be able to replace Weir.

1) AT is nowhere near as good an actress as TH.

2) Carter is nowhere near as good a character as Weir.

3) Wier has history on the show, three years of it, Carter has the odd mention and the very odd episode(s).

4) Carter comes with way too much baggage, if tptb introduce her as a new character that may work but if they assume everyone who watches Atlantis already knows who she is they will have a lot of confused viewers. Not everyone who watches Atlantis watches SG1.

5) The writers will never be able to stop themselves having every man/passing alien/cat/ascended being falling for Carter. It is getting very old, as is the character. It becomes downright embarrassing to have people falling over themselves to flirt with a women old enough to be a grandmother.

6) Weir and Sheppard have amazing chemistry, I just can't see Carter's interaction being anywhere near as good. A lot of fans are going to really miss Weir and Sheppard, shippers and the fans who only see mutual trust and friendship.

7) Weir and Rodney have had some fantastic scenes together, the times we have had Carter and Rodney together have been cringworthy, many fans just don't like what happens to his character when Carter is around. They compete with each other, they serve the same role and as such realy cancel each other out. Weir complimented and defered to Rodney in a way Carter never could.

8) Teyla has a real friendship with Weir, built slowly over the years, Carter will never be able to take her place in that relationship.

9) Weir is a civilian, a diplomat, a linguist, Carter isn't. She is military, just like Sheppard, a scientist, just like Rodney, she brings no new talents to the show.

10) Weir has years of experience in the Pegasus galaxy, Carter has been there once, fevered delusions not withstanding.

11) Weir is a much loved, long standing character on the show, Carter isn't. Even many people who like Carter really don't want her on the show, not if it means losing Weir.

In conclusion Carter is a very poor, largly unwanted replacment for a character many, many people do not believe needs replacing.

Ltcolshepjumper
February 24th, 2007, 02:27 PM
Reasons why Carter will never be able to replace Weir.

1) AT is nowhere near as good an actress as TH.

2) Carter is nowhere near as good a character as Weir.

3) Wier has history on the show, three years of it, Carter has the odd mention and the very odd episode(s).

4) Carter comes with way too much baggage, if tptb introduce her as a new character that may work but if they assume everyone who watches Atlantis already knows who she is they will have a lot of confused viewers. Not everyone who watches Atlantis watches SG1.

5) The writers will never be able to stop themselves having every man/passing alien/cat/ascended being falling for Carter. It is getting very old, as is the character. It becomes downright embarrassing to have people falling over themselves to flirt with a women old enough to be a grandmother.

6) Weir and Sheppard have amazing chemistry, I just can't see Carter's interaction being anywhere near as good. A lot of fans are going to really miss Weir and Sheppard, shippers and the fans who only see mutual trust and friendship.

7) Weir and Rodney have had some fantastic scenes together, the times we have had Carter and Rodney together have been cringworthy, many fans just don't like what happens to his character when Carter is around. They compete with each other, they serve the same role and as such realy cancel each other out. Weir complimented and defered to Rodney in a way Carter never could.

8) Teyla has a real friendship with Weir, built slowly over the years, Carter will never be able to take her place in that relationship.

9) Weir is a civilian, a diplomat, a linguist, Carter isn't. She is military, just like Sheppard, a scientist, just like Rodney, she brings no new talents to the show.

10) Weir has years of experience in the Pegasus galaxy, Carter has been there once, fevered delusions not withstanding.

11) Weir is a much loved, long standing character on the show, Carter isn't. Even many people who like Carter really don't want her on the show, not if it means losing Weir.

In conclusion Carter is a very poor, largly unwanted replacment for a character many, many people do not believe needs replacing.

Well stated.

Melora
February 24th, 2007, 05:05 PM
Reasons why Carter will never be able to replace Weir.

snip

I imagine that it goes without saying that this is just your opinion (and apparently also that of ltcolshepjumper). :rolleyes:

Reasons why I think Carter will be a good fit on Atlantis:

1) AT is a terrific actress – This is not just my opinion, although I believe some of the most poignant moments on SG-1 were the result of AT’s talent as an actress. It is also the opinion of her peers as attested to by the fact she has won many acting awards including 3 Leo's and a Saturn award. In addition, she has also received several award nominations over the years. I sincerely doubt all of those people who actually work as professionals in the entertainment industry are wrong. It is also the opinion of her co-workers, including many of the directors, actors, writers, and producers on SG-1 and SGA who have remarked on her acting talent numerous times over. She will undoubtedly be able to make the best of whatever the writers of SGA give her to work with in season 4.

2) Carter is a fabulous character – She is an extraordinary scientist and soldier, as well as a good person. She has grown and adapted over ten years to become a very well-rounded character. She is not two-dimensional and has demonstrated herself to be a fallible human being over the years, while also being able to show remorse for her mistakes. She also works well with others and has a likeable personality. She will fit in well in Atlantis b/c she has the knowledge and experience to work well with both the scientists and the military contingent. She will also not take any nonsense from the baddies like the Wraith and Asurans and will work diligently with Sheppard and the others to fight these and other enemies.

3) Carter has a long history in the Stargate universe. She was an essential member of SG-1 for ten years and she has worked with McKay, Weir, and Lorne before. Although she has not had the chance to work closely with Sheppard, Teyla, or Ronon, she has many things in common with these characters and this should provide opportunities for good character interaction.

4) She is known to the SGA audience through her appearances in “Letters from Pegasus,” “Grace Under Pressure,” “McKay and Mrs. Miller,” and the various other times she has been mentioned on screen since season 1. For those who don't remember the character, TPTB will most likely introduce her character in such a way as to refresh everyone’s memories (as with all characters that reappear in a show).

5) AT is a team player who respects the show and the people who work on it. She also understands and respects the fans (even many of those who go out of their way to demean her). She is friends with many of the members of the cast and crew of Atlantis. It is recorded fact that DH greatly enjoys working with her and I imagine this will be the case with the other actors on the show as well.

As for your backhanded jibe at Carter’s age (and implicitly AT’s), that doesn’t even justify a response.

As for comparing AT and TH, you’re right. There is no comparison. Both are extraordinary women who do not deserve the rude comments that many fans have made about them over the years. They are also both terrific actresses who have graced us with their talent and I am grateful for that. One is not better than the other. One cannot replace the other. I, for one, respect and appreciate each one for their unique talent, the devotion to their craft, their dedication to their fans, and their personal character.

In an ideal world, both TH and AT could be on the show as regulars and we would get the opportunity to see these two terrific characters interact often. But, unfortunately, that is not the path TPTB have chosen to take.

Needless to say, all of this is only my humble opinion. :)

Skydiver
February 24th, 2007, 05:22 PM
heck, in this day and age, anyone over the age of 30 could be a grandaprent. All it takes is two 'early bloomers' in each generation.

theoretically, you can be a great, great, great grand parent at 75

chocdoc
February 24th, 2007, 07:13 PM
I imagine that it goes without saying that this is just your opinion (and apparently also that of ltcolshepjumper). :rolleyes:

Reasons why I think Carter will be a good fit on Atlantis:

1) AT is a terrific actress – This is not just my opinion, although I believe some of the most poignant moments on SG-1 were the result of AT’s talent as an actress. It is also the opinion of her peers as attested to by the fact she has won many acting awards including 3 Leo's and a Saturn award. In addition, she has also received several award nominations over the years. I sincerely doubt all of those people who actually work as professionals in the entertainment industry are wrong. It is also the opinion of her co-workers, including many of the directors, actors, writers, and producers on SG-1 and SGA who have remarked on her acting talent numerous times over. She will undoubtedly be able to make the best of whatever the writers of SGA give her to work with in season 4.

2) Carter is a fabulous character – She is an extraordinary scientist and soldier, as well as a good person. She has grown and adapted over ten years to become a very well-rounded character. She is not two-dimensional and has demonstrated herself to be a fallible human being over the years, while also being able to show remorse for her mistakes. She also works well with others and has a likeable personality. She will fit in well in Atlantis b/c she has the knowledge and experience to work well with both the scientists and the military contingent. She will also not take any nonsense from the baddies like the Wraith and Asurans and will work diligently with Sheppard and the others to fight these and other enemies.

3) Carter has a long history in the Stargate universe. She was an essential member of SG-1 for ten years and she has worked with McKay, Weir, and Lorne before. Although she has not had the chance to work closely with Sheppard, Teyla, or Ronon, she has many things in common with these characters and this should provide opportunities for good character interaction.

4) She is known to the SGA audience through her appearances in “Letters from Pegasus,” “Grace Under Pressure,” “McKay and Mrs. Miller,” and the various other times she has been mentioned on screen since season 1. For those who don't remember the character, TPTB will most likely introduce her character in such a way as to refresh everyone’s memories (as with all characters that reappear in a show).

5) AT is a team player who respects the show and the people who work on it. She also understands and respects the fans (even many of those who go out of their way to demean her). She is friends with many of the members of the cast and crew of Atlantis. It is recorded fact that DH greatly enjoys working with her and I imagine this will be the case with the other actors on the show as well.

As for your backhanded jibe at Carter’s age (and implicitly AT’s), that doesn’t even justify a response.

As for comparing AT and TH, you’re right. There is no comparison. Both are extraordinary women who do not deserve the rude comments that many fans have made about them over the years. They are also both terrific actresses who have graced us with their talent and I am grateful for that. One is not better than the other. One cannot replace the other. I, for one, respect and appreciate each one for their unique talent, the devotion to their craft, their dedication to their fans, and their personal character.

In an ideal world, both TH and AT could be on the show as regulars and we would get the opportunity to see these two terrific characters interact often. But, unfortunately, that is not the path TPTB have chosen to take.

Needless to say, all of this is only my humble opinion. :)


Wonderful post!

scarimor
February 25th, 2007, 12:47 AM
I imagine that it goes without saying that this is just your opinion (and apparently also that of ltcolshepjumper). :rolleyes:

Reasons why I think Carter will be a good fit on Atlantis:

1) AT is a terrific actress – This is not just my opinion, although I believe some of the most poignant moments on SG-1 were the result of AT’s talent as an actress. It is also the opinion of her peers as attested to by the fact she has won many acting awards including 3 Leo's and a Saturn award. In addition, she has also received several award nominations over the years. I sincerely doubt all of those people who actually work as professionals in the entertainment industry are wrong. It is also the opinion of her co-workers, including many of the directors, actors, writers, and producers on SG-1 and SGA who have remarked on her acting talent numerous times over. She will undoubtedly be able to make the best of whatever the writers of SGA give her to work with in season 4.

2) Carter is a fabulous character – She is an extraordinary scientist and soldier, as well as a good person. She has grown and adapted over ten years to become a very well-rounded character. She is not two-dimensional and has demonstrated herself to be a fallible human being over the years, while also being able to show remorse for her mistakes. She also works well with others and has a likeable personality. She will fit in well in Atlantis b/c she has the knowledge and experience to work well with both the scientists and the military contingent. She will also not take any nonsense from the baddies like the Wraith and Asurans and will work diligently with Sheppard and the others to fight these and other enemies.

3) Carter has a long history in the Stargate universe. She was an essential member of SG-1 for ten years and she has worked with McKay, Weir, and Lorne before. Although she has not had the chance to work closely with Sheppard, Teyla, or Ronon, she has many things in common with these characters and this should provide opportunities for good character interaction.

4) She is known to the SGA audience through her appearances in “Letters from Pegasus,” “Grace Under Pressure,” “McKay and Mrs. Miller,” and the various other times she has been mentioned on screen since season 1. For those who don't remember the character, TPTB will most likely introduce her character in such a way as to refresh everyone’s memories (as with all characters that reappear in a show).

5) AT is a team player who respects the show and the people who work on it. She also understands and respects the fans (even many of those who go out of their way to demean her). She is friends with many of the members of the cast and crew of Atlantis. It is recorded fact that DH greatly enjoys working with her and I imagine this will be the case with the other actors on the show as well.

As for your backhanded jibe at Carter’s age (and implicitly AT’s), that doesn’t even justify a response.

As for comparing AT and TH, you’re right. There is no comparison. Both are extraordinary women who do not deserve the rude comments that many fans have made about them over the years. They are also both terrific actresses who have graced us with their talent and I am grateful for that. One is not better than the other. One cannot replace the other. I, for one, respect and appreciate each one for their unique talent, the devotion to their craft, their dedication to their fans, and their personal character.

In an ideal world, both TH and AT could be on the show as regulars and we would get the opportunity to see these two terrific characters interact often. But, unfortunately, that is not the path TPTB have chosen to take.

Needless to say, all of this is only my humble opinion. :)
Well stated :)

flynn1959
February 25th, 2007, 01:56 AM
heck, in this day and age, anyone over the age of 30 could be a grandaprent. All it takes is two 'early bloomers' in each generation.

theoretically, you can be a great, great, great grand parent at 75

Exactly. I myself am a grandmother so I really don't think it was a backhanded jibe as suggested by Melora. My point was that as Carter is in her mid forties it is unreasonable to expect every passing male, no matter what age to fall for her. Carter is a fine looking women but she does look her age, she is not some twenty something and should not be written as one. There is nothing at all wrong with a mature women in a responsible job acting as such.

And you are right these days Carter is old enough to be a great grandmother, if you allow for kids having kids etc.

There is nothing wrong with growing old, it happens to everyone but tptb don't seem to be able to let go of thier notion of Carter as the young military, scientist of the early seasons. Those days are long gone, experience and age changes everyone or at least it does in the real world.

Celcool
February 25th, 2007, 02:09 AM
Reasons why Carter will never be able to replace Weir.

1) AT is nowhere near as good an actress as TH.

2) Carter is nowhere near as good a character as Weir.

3) Wier has history on the show, three years of it, Carter has the odd mention and the very odd episode(s).

4) Carter comes with way too much baggage, if tptb introduce her as a new character that may work but if they assume everyone who watches Atlantis already knows who she is they will have a lot of confused viewers. Not everyone who watches Atlantis watches SG1.

5) The writers will never be able to stop themselves having every man/passing alien/cat/ascended being falling for Carter. It is getting very old, as is the character. It becomes downright embarrassing to have people falling over themselves to flirt with a women old enough to be a grandmother.

6) Weir and Sheppard have amazing chemistry, I just can't see Carter's interaction being anywhere near as good. A lot of fans are going to really miss Weir and Sheppard, shippers and the fans who only see mutual trust and friendship.

7) Weir and Rodney have had some fantastic scenes together, the times we have had Carter and Rodney together have been cringworthy, many fans just don't like what happens to his character when Carter is around. They compete with each other, they serve the same role and as such realy cancel each other out. Weir complimented and defered to Rodney in a way Carter never could.

8) Teyla has a real friendship with Weir, built slowly over the years, Carter will never be able to take her place in that relationship.

9) Weir is a civilian, a diplomat, a linguist, Carter isn't. She is military, just like Sheppard, a scientist, just like Rodney, she brings no new talents to the show.

10) Weir has years of experience in the Pegasus galaxy, Carter has been there once, fevered delusions not withstanding.

11) Weir is a much loved, long standing character on the show, Carter isn't. Even many people who like Carter really don't want her on the show, not if it means losing Weir.

In conclusion Carter is a very poor, largly unwanted replacment for a character many, many people do not believe needs replacing.
You have some very good points there. Especially agree with 3, 4, 6, 7, 8, 9, 10, 11. That's almost all, isn't it? :)

Deevil
February 25th, 2007, 02:20 AM
Of course, how would Carter be replacing Weir? I'm kinda confused on the details here. They are 2 different kinds of characters, who forfill 2 very individual roles. So, why would one be replacing the other like they are a light-bulb. Their characters and their positions are not interchangable.

So I for one don't really care for the lists on their 'replacement' value. Honestly, I think Sam will be a great addition on Atlantis in her own right, not as someone who is taking away a place from Weir.

scarimor
February 25th, 2007, 02:23 AM
Perpetuating the falsehood that having Carter on the show "means losing Weir" is just one example of the nasty elements in this discussion. The decision to reduce Weir's prominence was taken before the decision to bring Carter into SGA.

Melora's post is a fine example of the contrast with that unpleasant element in fandom: respect for both actresses - something noticeably lacking in that other post to which hers was a response.

Quite why viewers are supposed to be so stupid that Carter's presence will "confuse" them escapes me, as does the sense in any notion that the writers must automatically ship Carter with an alien/cat/whatever, and the relevance of AT's age.

Were I in TH's place, I'm sure I would not find any comfort (if indeed I were seeking it) in the likes of such invidious sentiment. Were she to read it, I believe she would feel embarrassment.

saberhagen83
February 25th, 2007, 02:25 AM
I imagine that it goes without saying that this is just your opinion (and apparently also that of ltcolshepjumper). :rolleyes:


A superb post! I could never have written it better myself. I really hate every post that compares actors talents, I think both Torri and Amanda are wonderful actors. Who is to say who is better? I may like Carter better but I like Weir as well and would have enjoyed both working together and I hope they will next season.

That said, I don't think it was needed to replace Weir however. However do we know if it was her choice to reduce the role or the producers? But I still think there is a lot of potential for Carter's interaction with the other characters. We haven't seen her really interact with Sheppard, Ronon or Teyla...so how can anyone know how it would work out? It could be great, good or bad...only time will tell! All this talking trash about a actor/character replacing someone is really starting to feel dumb and not really needed either. I can understand the anger and dissapointment, but why talk bad about a actor? And in this case it's not even AT's fault at all, the producers wanted her, AT has been great and very understanding of the fans who are against it.

I will give S4 a fair chance. Just like I did with S9 of SG1 before I made my judgement. I will go in to the new season with a open mind and hope they make the changes good, or at least, better this time. I may not like all these changes but it's not like it's the end of the world. It can be good it can be bad, we'll just have to wait and see.

flynn1959
February 25th, 2007, 02:31 AM
Of course, how would Carter be replacing Weir? I'm kinda confused on the details here. They are 2 different kinds of characters, who forfill 2 very individual roles. So, why would one be replacing the other like they are a light-bulb. Their characters and their positions are not interchangable.

So I for one don't really care for the lists on their 'replacement' value. Honestly, I think Sam will be a great addition on Atlantis in her own right, not as someone who is taking away a place from Weir.

Carter is replacing Weir. Weir is to be a re-curring character next season and Carter is going to be in a massive fourteen episodes and will be in the main cast list.

I am sorry but most people do see it that way. AT has been brought over to the show and TH has all but been removed. If Carter is made head of Atlantis then that is a direct replacement for Weir, now we don't know if that is what tptb have planned for Carter but in any case whatever her position, one female main character has been replaced by another.

I for one resent that, if they really had to bring Carter over and I don't think it is a wise move at all but if they simply couldn't do anything else, then they should have kept both Weir and Carter. They didn't, so what else are we to think?

Carter is replacing Weir.

Night Spring
February 25th, 2007, 02:41 AM
I for one resent that, if they really had to bring Carter over and I don't think it is a wise move at all but if they simply couldn't do anything else, then they should have kept both Weir and Carter. They didn't, so what else are we to think?

Carter is replacing Weir.
Well, JM has stated in his blog that they decided to remove Weir first, and Carter was one of several options they considered as a replacement, and they eventually decided on Carter.

Which kinda begs the question of why they decided to get rid of Weir in the first place...

scarimor
February 25th, 2007, 02:47 AM
Well, JM has stated in his blog that they decided to remove Weir first, and Carter was one of several options they considered as a replacement, and they eventually decided on Carter.

Which kinda begs the question of why they decided to get rid of Weir in the first place...
My guess is that it's down to a change in the general direction of the show. There were big hints of it in the cliff-hanger that looked like foretelling to me. But we'll see.

Deevil
February 25th, 2007, 02:47 AM
I am sorry but most people do see it that way

Really, most people? You mean there has been some sort of secret ballot taken in order to detirmine who feels what about it, and after it's all been counted it was determined that most people feel this way?

Does most people mean that over 50% of the fan population feel that way? Or was it just a small sampling of the community?

This most people arguement is quite tired. We really don't know what most people think, so it's always better to talk for yourself.


AT has been brought over to the show and TH has all but been removed.

So, your point? That doesn't make the characters any more interchangable. And I know I have pointed it out to you before, we don't know the reasons why TH is going to be reaccuring, so saying that AT is replacing her is hyperbole.


now we don't know if that is what tptb have planned for Carter but in any case whatever her position, one female main character has been replaced by another.

So the implication is that female characters are interchangable. That is quite shameful actually, and a sentiment I don't quite understand.


I for one resent that, if they really had to bring Carter over and I don't think it is a wise move at all but if they simply couldn't do anything else, then they should have kept both Weir and Carter. They didn't, so what else are we to think?

Umm, you could think any number of things other then Carter is replacing Weir. And until anyone has any idea of why Torri is leaving, we don't know that they both could have shared the same space for the same time. Conclusion jumping usually just gets one tied up in knots...


Carter is replacing Weir.


The characters are not interchangable. If they were, why would you care is Carter is replacing Weir. After all, they are obviously the same characters, with the same job descriptions and character interactions.

It's kind of like accusing someone of replacing a dog after their dog is died. Yes, they want another dog, but the new dog is not a replacement for the deceased one - they are different.

flynn1959
February 25th, 2007, 02:51 AM
A good actor can lift the most mediocre of scripts,they can bring out the best in those around them, they make the show a joy to watch and add to our entertainment. A good actor can say more with a simply look than with a thousand words. A good actor is an asset to any show. They underplay are subtle and engage us the audience and transport us to another place, they help us lose ourselves in the show and forget for a moment that we are watching tv.

A bad actor drags everyone down to thier level. A bad actor relies on exagerated body movements and facial ticks, swallowing, gulping, poping eyes. A bad actor jerks us back to reality, we look away unable to watch, embarrassed for them.

The actors in the Stargate franchise are paid well to entertain us, paid by us, for without us the viewers, the fans who subscribe to thier channels, who buys the dvd's, who supports them they would not have a job to do. And make no mistake, it is a job, just the same as the person who fixes your car or serves you in the supermarket.

They should do thier job well and if I, the viewer, do not think that is the case I am well within my rights to say so. Same as I would do if my car broke down minutes after being fixed or I found out I had been overcharged at the checkout.

IMO Weir is a very good character played by a very good actor. Carter is a very bad character played by a very bad actor. Wier increases my enjoyment of Atlantis, Carter will not. I know because I have watched her for the last ten years on SG1 and by now know all of her bad acting technics, and exagerated facial movements. I know just when the gulp and swallow will come, just when the little simpering look will appear, I even know what music tptb chose to try to create a mood that she, as a bad actress, fails to create.

She will add nothing to the show and will never be a replacement for Weir.

Deevil
February 25th, 2007, 02:58 AM
She will add nothing to the show and will never be a replacement for Weir.

Good thing too, since Carter can't actually replace Weir. Thanks for making my point.

Although I disagree with your assessment of Amanda's acting, vehimently, you are entitled to your opinion. But I have to say, if Amanda is a bad actor, so is everyone that has ever acted on Stargate - so I don't really know what you're talking about. Whatever. I am well within my rights to say that Carter could be a fantastic addition to the show, and I for one am looking forward to seeing it.

Gee, I wonder where I fit into that survey of fandom that determines what most people think. Actually, I wonder why I have never been asked to take the survey. Ehh...

scarimor
February 25th, 2007, 02:59 AM
Gee, I wonder where I fit into that survey of fandom that determines what most people think. Actually, I wonder why I have never been asked to take the survey. Ehh...
Because then the conclusion might be a real one, not something someone made up :p

Deevil
February 25th, 2007, 03:01 AM
Because then the conclusion might be a real one, not something someone made up

Ohh damn. It's that infernal logic thing again isn't it?

X04Shivaji
February 25th, 2007, 03:23 AM
To B honest id rather see sg1 become commanders of ships powerfull ships like asgard or ancient ships that would be so kool and finally i would also suggest that deadaulus arrives with the apollo to help the stranded city with carter who temp takes over while wier is inj makes sense seeing as in "first strike" she was standing directly underneath the beam and she would be put in the "sleeping chamber" the one she was in "before i sleep" i also believe that they have another ZPM remains to be seen where they could of got one from or even possiable they have a new power source. ;)...

Skydiver
February 25th, 2007, 08:13 AM
Get your personal disputes out of the thread.

Plain and simple.

If you can't debate the TOPIC, then go find another thread to play in.

flynn1959
February 25th, 2007, 10:21 AM
Could Carter replace Weir? No, no and a thousand times no! Weir is a wonderful much loved, three dimentional character. In comparison Carter is a cartoon, dull flat and lifeless. She is not wanted on Atlantis by a great many people, just look at all the negative posts here and on every other Stargate forum. Far more negative than positive, if you don't count multiple posts by the same people. The decision to bring Carter over to Atlantis resulted in loud boos at a recent convention, shocking DH and I am sure tptb. Letters written in protest, e-mails sent, web sites set up to try to bring Weir back to her rightful, earned place on the show. Petitions signed. Polls taken.

IMO Carter is not wanted or needed on Atlantis and the majority of people seem to agree with me. A simple wander through the net shows that. Even many die hard Carter fans do not want her on Atlantis.

Major Tyler
February 25th, 2007, 10:46 AM
Carter is a wonderfully dynamic character with a rich backstory and incredible depth. For me, Jack leaving was not a big deal, but if Carter left, so would I. Carter's joining Atlantis and aiding it in its new direction will hopefully revive the spirit it had in the first season, and end its downward spiral.

Dr. Weir was a decent character, although she really didn't have a role other than to be the person everyone tells their brilliant ideas to so she can say "Do it." I suppose that's important, in a way. If the other characters didn't have stop what they're doing to explain/ask permission, the wouldn't have a good excuse to tell the audience the details. The only time Weir really sticks out is when she says no, which usually completely derails the other character's efforts. I seriously am trying to think of instances (other than that one negotiation with the Genii) where Weir brought something unique and vital to a mission, but I'm coming up blank.

That being said, I think Torri is an amazing actress, and she deserves a role that challenges her and makes her a valued and necessary part of the action. The Elizabeth Weir character doesn't give her that opportunity, in my opinion.

Uber
February 25th, 2007, 11:03 AM
Could Carter replace Weir? No, no and a thousand times no!Actually, yeah she could. Especially given the fact that the requirements for leading the city have changed drastically and require more of a strategic/military mindset.
Weir is a wonderful much loved, three dimentional character.I'm not sure about the much loved part. I know she's loved by a group of ardent fans...like every character is...but I don't have any real evidence of her being beloved in the general populace.

Further...as much as it pains me to say it...I don't think Weir is three dimensional at all. Sure there have been instances where she really shined; but generally speaking, she comes across as fairly wooden to me. Most of the things she says and does could easily be said and done by someone else.

Either by choice or as an unintentional side effect of focusing on Shep/McKay...she is not all that well developed as a character.
In comparison Carter is a cartoon, dull flat and lifeless. In comparison, Carter has had a rich history where we've seen her interact and grow for a decade. We've seen the relationship she shared with her father, how it grew from anger and resentment to a loving bond. We've seen her go from the "woman" of the team trying to prove herself to an integral member of the team (that happened pretty quickly). We've seen her relationship with her team members and friends. We've seen her personal successes and failures. Many things can be said about Carter but "dull, flat and lifeless" ain't one of them.
She is not wanted on Atlantis by a great many people, just look at all the negative posts here and on every other Stargate forum. As many people here have pointed out, it means pretty much nothing what a group of vociferous fans say. It isn't necessarily indicative of what fandom at large feels.

Also, while pointing out the negative posts here and elsewhere, you'd be remiss not to acknowledge the positive response as well. Because it does exist.

Any change in a show will hit some resistance. Sometimes the changes work out and sometimes they won't. As what's happened has happened and isn't going to be undone, all we have left now is to wait and see how it turns out.
Far more negative than positive, if you don't count multiple posts by the same people. Meh...I doubt it. And by multiple posts by the same people...that's done on both sides, as you yourself demonstrate nicely. ;)

Further, I'm not all that convinced that supporters will waste time "defending" the idea to people so reticent to the notion. People who are dead set against it aren't going to budge and some people just don't see the point in slamming their head against a brick wall. I know a lot of fans in that boat. And that's one of the reasons why online posts simply aren't an indication of what the fans as a whole think.
The decision to bring Carter over to Atlantis resulted in loud boos at a recent convention, shocking DH and I am sure tptb. Well from what I could see, Joe Mallozzi wasn't shocked at all. And frankly I think the effort to bring this to his attention backfired sharply, as my guess is it was to show him there's resistance by some to the idea (which he already knew as that's true whenever change takes place) and get him to see the light and change his mind. Instead, he ended up thinking badly of the overly invested fans who made a poor showing of themselves at a con.
Letters written in protest, e-mails sent, web sites set up to try to bring Weir back to her rightful, earned place on the show. Petitions signed. Polls taken.None of which matters in the long run. TPTB appreciate seeing fan passions and like seeing what moves people...but Joe made his position really clear: "Letter writing campaigns are great in that they are an expression of fan passion and they offer us insights into what fans want to see, but they are not going to cause us to unmake a major decision at this stage and it would be disingenuous to lead you on and make you believe otherwise."

We don't know who decided what about Weir and why. But the fact is, it's done and won't be undone.
IMO Carter is not wanted or needed on Atlantis and the majority of people seem to agree with me. A simple wander through the net shows that.Again with the "majority" claim. No one knows what the "majority" think. All one can do is speak for themselves rather than claiming that the "majority" of fans share their position.
Even many die hard Carter fans do not want her on Atlantis.I don't know about that either.

I've seen a couple "die hard" Carter fans share that opinion, but I don't know how that could possibly constitute "many."

Also, the motivation for why some Carter fans aren't too keen on the idea is important here. Some don't want to see Amanda face the ire of exuberant Torri fans (thankfully now, we know that the decision about Weir is separate from the decision about Amanda). Some wish that both could serve together. Some don't want Amanda to be tied down to the franchise more than she has to be and want her to have the freedom to do other projects. Some are scared they'll screw up her character...weaken her...for the purpose of servicing the plot. Some are afraid that they'll only take advantage of the Carter/McKay dynamic.

My response to all of the above is this...I share many if not all of your concerns. But since it's going to happen, let's see what they do. We don't know what they're planning or how it's done. While I'm the first to admit it could turn out horribly, I also believe there's a strong possibility that it could be brilliant because of how great a character Carter is and how incredibly talented Amanda is.

I said it before and I'll say it again...fans could get to a point where they look back and wonder how SGA worked before Carter came on board.

I'll give it a shot, because I'm a Carter/Amanda fan and I want to see what they're planning both for my favorite character and a show I enjoy.

Linzi
February 25th, 2007, 12:32 PM
Could Carter replace Weir? No, no and a thousand times no! Weir is a wonderful much loved, three dimentional character.
In your opinion. Weir has never been a particularly popular character on some forums, so it depends where you go and with whom you mix.


In comparison Carter is a cartoon, dull flat and lifeless. She is not wanted on Atlantis by a great many people, just look at all the negative posts here and on every other Stargate forum. Far more negative than positive, if you don't count multiple posts by the same people.
Again in your opinion. I have never read that Carter is dull, flat and lifeless, yet I have read scifi critcs saying that about the character of Weir on quite a few occasions. Again, it depends on your perspective.
I am wary about Carter appearing on Atlantis, for sure. I'm ok with it now, but still concerned, because it's a change to what I'm used to seeing. Change takes time to get used to. But, I'm certainly willing to give her a chance to fit in there. I personally hope she does. I understand that some don't like Carter, some posters on the thread I post on regularly don't like her, but they never say things like that about her.
How do you know how many people vote more than once or get friends to vote too? I think a lot of these so called fan polls aren't very accurate at all. I've seen people on threads urging others to vote and trying to get friends to do it too, and to post more than once.


The decision to bring Carter over to Atlantis resulted in loud boos at a recent convention, shocking DH and I am sure tptb. Letters written in protest, e-mails sent, web sites set up to try to bring Weir back to her rightful, earned place on the show. Petitions signed. Polls taken.

Hang on a minute. At P2, a FEW, very loud, and extremely rude people booed. I'm sure DH was shocked at people's behaviour. I certainly was. At times like that I'm embarrassed to be a fan.



IMO Carter is not wanted or needed on Atlantis and the majority of people seem to agree with me. A simple wander through the net shows that. Even many die hard Carter fans do not want her on Atlantis.
The majority do, do they? I'm glad you know this. It depends, again, on who you mix with. Many are concerned at the change in direction for season 4, some are upset that Carter is coming over, some don't care, some are pleased Weir's role is going to be reduced, some are thrilled about Carter coming over. Again, how can we know what the majority of the fandom feels?

Atlantis1
February 25th, 2007, 12:33 PM
I said it before and I'll say it again...fans could get to a point where they look back and wonder how SGA worked before Carter came on board.

I am sorry but I can tell you this is not going to happen with me. Yes, AT is a great actress but so are the original cast of SGA. Sometimes I love Atlantis so much it hurts and I wish I had never started watching it. I'm going to continue with SGA season 4 but please don't expect me to ever come to the point of wondering how SGA got on without Carter because that is really unfair.

Uber
February 25th, 2007, 12:41 PM
I am sorry but I can tell you this is not going to happen with me. Yes, AT is a great actress but so are the original cast of SGA. Sometimes I love Atlantis so much it hurts and I wish I had never started watching it. I'm going to continue with SGA season 4 but please don't expect me to ever come to the point of wondering how SGA got on without Carter because that is really unfair.I never demanded that anyone take the position I'm suggesting so I'm not sure what's unfair about what I said.

As much as I think it's a possibility, I also fully acknowledge there are others who will never feel that way. It's quite possible however that we'll all be pleasantly surprised by what takes place.

Atlantis1
February 25th, 2007, 12:50 PM
Here is a huge problem I see. Sheppard has been the hero of the show from the beginning. There are alot of us including me who love the character. I don't want to see him degraded, put out of the main character slot where he is now. Carter actually can be thought of as a frightening chararcter to be brought to Atlantis. What will her presence do to Sheppard. Can you understand my concern?

ReganX
February 25th, 2007, 01:12 PM
Here is a huge problem I see. Sheppard has been the hero of the show from the beginning. There are alot of us including me who love the character. I don't want to see him degraded, put out of the main character slot where he is now. Carter actually can be thought of as a frightening chararcter to be brought to Atlantis. What will her presence do to Sheppard. Can you understand my concern?

There is some potential for harm if Sam's transfer to Atlantis is poorly handled, I agree, but given TPTB's determination to have a male lead in command in Season Nine - even when the character's taking command made no sense - I'd say that Sheppard's status as lead is pretty safe, especially as, to the best of my knowledge, AT's contract only obliges her to stick around for one year.

In terms of the character's position on Atlantis, if Sam is in command then obviously Sheppard will no longer have the authority to take command during a military situation as there would be no need for him to do so but I doubt that there will be much practical change in his status. He'll probably still lead any defence teams in case of an invasion and, even if he's not giving the orders, he'll probably be giving his advice as far as strategy goes.

I think that having Sam in command of Atlantis, even if it means that Sheppard will lose the post of military leader by default, allows plenty of scope for character development for him. Whether Weir is injured, has been fired, has resigned, been abducted by aliens, etc, he's going to miss her. They've been working together for three years and they'll have their own routine and methods, then Sam will come onboard and she'll have her own ideas for running Atlantis. While Sam will need to adjust to her new role and to accept the input of those she will be working with, all of them, including Sheppard, will need to accept that she is in charge now and that some changes are inevitable.

As well as that, Sheppard will be able to learn from Sam and vice versa.

Another factor the writers could possibly introduce into the mix are Sheppard's feelings about not getting command - does he resent it or is he relieved that he doesn't have to run a city? Is it harder to work under the command of another military officer than it was to answer to a civilian?

Properly handled, even a slight demotion in position for Sheppard could lead to invaluable character development.

Major Tyler
February 25th, 2007, 01:14 PM
Properly handled, even a slight demotion in position for Sheppard could lead to invaluable character development. I agree with you (*gasp* ;)). I think if "never-fail" Sheppard made a mistake and got a slight demotion as a result, that's grounds for great character development.

Atlantis1
February 25th, 2007, 01:22 PM
I agree with you (*gasp* ;)). I think if "never-fail" Sheppard made a mistake and got a slight demotion as a result, that's grounds for great character development.

It undermines who and what Sheppard is on the show.

jenks
February 25th, 2007, 01:24 PM
Not really, not aslong as he is still the leader of his team...

ReganX
February 25th, 2007, 01:26 PM
It undermines who and what Sheppard is on the show.

And how does he handle that? How do the people around him feel?

He's not a job or a rank, he's a person. People make mistakes, there can be consequences and how they deal with their mistakes and the consequences says a lot about their character.

SG1Guy
February 25th, 2007, 01:33 PM
I've grown to like Weir, her character is getting stronger and more interesting but it looks like they might be downgrading her role somewhat. Being nearly killed will do that to you.
I wasn't to impressed with her whining scene in that episode where she complains about not being in charge for real.
I doubt Carter will take over, she's only in 14 episodes and apparantly is not filming as much as the other characters are. Sheppard will probably be the one to take over if anyone does.
I'm not sure I want to see Carter as head honcho, it would mean she woluld have to be the tough guy, making the hard decisions and that would take to much away from the kind of warm, compassionate character that she is.

Skydiver
February 25th, 2007, 01:39 PM
Here is a huge problem I see. Sheppard has been the hero of the show from the beginning. There are alot of us including me who love the character. I don't want to see him degraded, put out of the main character slot where he is now. Carter actually can be thought of as a frightening chararcter to be brought to Atlantis. What will her presence do to Sheppard. Can you understand my concern?


I can understand that. But i think sam 'demoting' shep and removing him from his place as team leader is very unlikely. how can sam logically do that if she's only in 14 episodes? And like someone else said, tptb's obsession with the 'white male action hero' being the star and main protagonist doesn't make me think that sam will be in command of shep's team. In fact, if she becomes the administrator of the city, i can't see her having the time or position to lead the team as well. I honestly don't see shep being in danger of losing anything but the title of 'military CO of the city'...he still leades his team, he just does a little less paperwork, and since all we ever see of him is leading his team, i really don't see it changing much.


I agree with you (*gasp* ;)). I think if "never-fail" Sheppard made a mistake and got a slight demotion as a result, that's grounds for great character development.

It would be very interesting. Shep has a long standing habit of basically ignoring weir, doing what he wants and then charming his way out of her being ticked off at him. Something i'm sure was done to make shep the rogueish hero...but that also totally undermines Weir as leader of the city. Shep flouts her orders all the time and is never called on it. It would be nice to see some accountability coming to play every once in a while



It undermines who and what Sheppard is on the show.

I'm sorry, i don't see it. I just don't see Sam running around, leading the team while shep stays home. he will still be team leader, and the senior team member on the city. I kinda see it along the line of shep being Jack and Sam being Hammond/Landry. the person that gives the orders, makes the decisions and deals with the fallout.

Ltcolshepjumper
February 25th, 2007, 01:42 PM
I agree with you (*gasp* ;)). I think if "never-fail" Sheppard made a mistake and got a slight demotion as a result, that's grounds for great character development.

And, that would result in making one character less important in order for another one to be more important. And since when has "never-fail" Sheppard been perfect? He's made the most "mistakes" out of anyone. And, yes, grounds for great character development IF tptb would be able to pull something like that off. And what slight demotion are you referring to? Demotion in rank or just in position?

Major Tyler
February 25th, 2007, 01:44 PM
A demotion doesn't make a character less important (and a higher rank doesn't make them more important). Is Landry more important than Teal'c because he is a General? I think not.

Skydiver
February 25th, 2007, 01:55 PM
i would think the only demotion shep COULD face would just to not be the ranking military person on the base. sam would rank him even if she wasn't promoted to full colonel and would definitely rank him if she was promoted. thus, in a military battle of 'whose is bigger' sam would win cause she would outrank him.

But that's the only thing i could see changing. The fact that, if sam said 'dont' do it' she can follow that up with 'it's an order' and shep HAS to do what she says. and if he doesn't then he faces court marital

Major Tyler
February 25th, 2007, 01:58 PM
The fact that, if sam said 'dont' do it' she can follow that up with 'it's an order' and shep HAS to do what she says. and if he doesn't then he faces court maritalThat's exactly right! We should also consider that a similar situation existed when Caldwell was around, but no one was crying foul or predicting doom over that (at least, maybe not as loudly :P).

Ltcolshepjumper
February 25th, 2007, 02:03 PM
That's exactly right! We should also consider that a similar situation existed when Caldwell was around, but no one was crying foul or predicting doom over that (at least, maybe not as loudly :P).

Caldwell was a ship commander. Stated as so, and still is. TPTB had no plans to make him head of the military in Atlantis (although some spoilers did say that before the season began). The reason was because Sheppard got a promotion as well, so it evened it out. But we know that Carter probably isn't going to stay in command of a ship, and TH is recurring, so anything could happen.

ReganX
February 25th, 2007, 02:03 PM
It would be very interesting. Shep has a long standing habit of basically ignoring weir, doing what he wants and then charming his way out of her being ticked off at him. Something i'm sure was done to make shep the rogueish hero...but that also totally undermines Weir as leader of the city. Shep flouts her orders all the time and is never called on it. It would be nice to see some accountability coming to play every once in a while

I doubt very much if this will happen but it could be an interesting storyline if Weir loses her job in part because of one or more of the times that Sheppard didn't obey her.

Skydiver
February 25th, 2007, 02:07 PM
Caldwell was a ship commander. Stated as so, and still is. TPTB had no plans to make him head of the military in Atlantis (although some spoilers did say that before the season began). The reason was because Sheppard got a promotion as well, so it evened it out. But we know that Carter probably isn't going to stay in command of a ship, and TH is recurring, so anything could happen.
in hindsight, i think it would have been nice had caldwell gotten command of the city. then weir could have gone out with the team and had more of a role beyond plot facilitator. It could have also added some tension to things, along iwth facilitating a 'us against him' attitude between the team and caldwell

Cameron Mitchel
February 25th, 2007, 02:16 PM
There is some potential for harm if Sam's transfer to Atlantis is poorly handled, I agree, but given TPTB's determination to have a male lead in command in Season Nine - even when the character's taking command made no sense - I'd say that Sheppard's status as lead is pretty safe, especially as, to the best of my knowledge, AT's contract only obliges her to stick around for one year.

In terms of the character's position on Atlantis, if Sam is in command then obviously Sheppard will no longer have the authority to take command during a military situation as there would be no need for him to do so but I doubt that there will be much practical change in his status. He'll probably still lead any defence teams in case of an invasion and, even if he's not giving the orders, he'll probably be giving his advice as far as strategy goes.

I think that having Sam in command of Atlantis, even if it means that Sheppard will lose the post of military leader by default, allows plenty of scope for character development for him. Whether Weir is injured, has been fired, has resigned, been abducted by aliens, etc, he's going to miss her. They've been working together for three years and they'll have their own routine and methods, then Sam will come onboard and she'll have her own ideas for running Atlantis. While Sam will need to adjust to her new role and to accept the input of those she will be working with, all of them, including Sheppard, will need to accept that she is in charge now and that some changes are inevitable.

As well as that, Sheppard will be able to learn from Sam and vice versa.

Another factor the writers could possibly introduce into the mix are Sheppard's feelings about not getting command - does he resent it or is he relieved that he doesn't have to run a city? Is it harder to work under the command of another military officer than it was to answer to a civilian?

Properly handled, even a slight demotion in position for Sheppard could lead to invaluable character development.
If you've seen First Strike, then you already know his feelings on running the city- in his conversation with Col. Ellis.

prion
February 25th, 2007, 02:17 PM
i would think the only demotion shep COULD face would just to not be the ranking military person on the base. sam would rank him even if she wasn't promoted to full colonel and would definitely rank him if she was promoted. thus, in a military battle of 'whose is bigger' sam would win cause she would outrank him.

But that's the only thing i could see changing. The fact that, if sam said 'dont' do it' she can follow that up with 'it's an order' and shep HAS to do what she says. and if he doesn't then he faces court marital

Hm, plotwise I don't think Shep would be courtmartialed. O'Neill's been as bad if not worse with disobedience (and kidnapping, etc.) over the years and he kept his job and even got promoted....

RealmOfX
February 25th, 2007, 02:59 PM
Caldwell was a ship commander. Stated as so, and still is. TPTB had no plans to make him head of the military in Atlantis (although some spoilers did say that before the season began). The reason was because Sheppard got a promotion as well, so it evened it out. But we know that Carter probably isn't going to stay in command of a ship, and TH is recurring, so anything could happen.

I'm not really sure what point you are getting at here? Are you talking RL as in what the PTB plans to do or are you talking plot wise?

Plot wise it is established that Caldwell was a prime contender for the leader position (Season 2, 2nd ep) and he has been portrayed as someone who wants the position and is angling for it. Sheppard only got the job in the first place because Elizabeth demanded it and had the political clout behind her at the time to do so, they also inferred that he was promoted just so he could fill the position (this one I don't believe because it is actually a lot more difficult to get promotions than they implied, they have to follow the rules regardless of political pressure).

As for Carter we don't know anything beyond AT will appear in 14 eps.
<eta>
Oh yeah, and she arrives in her own ship

Ltcolshepjumper
February 25th, 2007, 03:03 PM
I'm not really sure what point you are getting at here? Are you talking RL as in what the PTB plans to do or are you talking plot wise?

Plot wise it is established that Caldwell was a prime contender for the leader position (Season 2, 2nd ep) and he has been portrayed as someone who wants the position and is angling for it. Sheppard only got the job in the first place because Elizabeth demanded it and had the political clout behind her at the time to do so, they also inferred that he was promoted just so he could fill the position (this one I don't believe because it is actually a lot more difficult to get promotions than they implied, they have to follow the rules regardless of political pressure).

As for Carter we don't know anything beyond AT will appear in 14 eps.

Plot wise. RL is fact. The RL part was referring to TPTB never intending or pondering making Caldwell leader of Atlantis. and the post was referring to Major Tyler's post as to why fans didn't worry when Caldwell was potentially going to take over as ranking military officer.

Deevil
February 25th, 2007, 03:04 PM
As for Carter we don't know anything beyond AT will appear in 14 eps.


Maybe she is going to take over Atlantis and use it to help her create an 'anti-ori' spray. No wait, the Ori is gone. Maybe she just wants to learn how to assend. And of course annoy McKay and somehow turn him into an annoying pratt (although, I'd like to know when he isn't prattish).

Carter may take over from Sheppard and ruin the whole expedition. Actually, through her ineptitude she'll blow up the base killing them all. Yes, this will happen in the first episode, and the rest of the series will be about the ghosts of her victims exacting vengence.

RealmOfX
February 25th, 2007, 03:08 PM
Hm, plotwise I don't think Shep would be courtmartialed. O'Neill's been as bad if not worse with disobedience (and kidnapping, etc.) over the years and he kept his job and even got promoted....

Actually I'm not sure that was the point Skydiver was trying to make. Rather that if Sam was in charge then she had the authority to order him to do something and the ramifications of disobeying a direct order from a commanding officer is significantly higher than disobeying a civilian. Something that TPTB would have to take into consideration, and give the characters actions more "edge" or impact.

RealmOfX
February 25th, 2007, 03:11 PM
Plot wise. RL is fact. The RL part was referring to TPTB never intending or pondering making Caldwell leader of Atlantis. and the post was referring to Major Tyler's psot as to why fans didn't worry when Caldwell was potentially going to take over as ranking military officer.

Just a question here - how do you know what TPTB intended to do?

scarimor
February 25th, 2007, 03:11 PM
Maybe she is going to take over Atlantis and use it to help her create an 'anti-ori' spray. No wait, the Ori is gone. Maybe she just wants to learn how to assend. And of course annoy McKay and somehow turn him into an annoying pratt (although, I'd like to know when he isn't prattish).

Carter may take over from Sheppard and ruin the whole expedition. Actually, through her ineptitude she'll blow up the base killing them all. Yes, this will happen in the first episode, and the rest of the series will be about the ghosts of her victims exacting vengence.
I know for a fact that Carter is going to put Shep in a pie and eat him.

RealmOfX
February 25th, 2007, 03:16 PM
Maybe she is going to take over Atlantis and use it to help her create an 'anti-ori' spray. No wait, the Ori is gone. Maybe she just wants to learn how to assend. And of course annoy McKay and somehow turn him into an annoying pratt (although, I'd like to know when he isn't prattish).

Carter may take over from Sheppard and ruin the whole expedition. Actually, through her ineptitude she'll blow up the base killing them all. Yes, this will happen in the first episode, and the rest of the series will be about the ghosts of her victims exacting vengence.


I know for a fact that Carter is going to put Shep in a pie and eat him.

:D :D

jenks
February 25th, 2007, 03:23 PM
Off topic - what does ETA mean?

Uber
February 25th, 2007, 03:23 PM
I know for a fact that Carter is going to put Shep in a pie and eat him.I heard the same thing. You know, shepherd's pie? Only now it's Sheppard pie. ;)

RealmOfX
February 25th, 2007, 03:25 PM
Off topic - what does ETA mean?

edited to add :)

jenks
February 25th, 2007, 03:25 PM
Cheers :)

Ltcolshepjumper
February 25th, 2007, 03:27 PM
Just a question here - how do you know what TPTB intended to do?

Mitch Pileggi(sp?) was added to the recurring cast of SGA. His character, Caldwell, was a ship commander. Do you think tptb intended for him to possibly take over as leader of Atlantis? I don't. In my opinion, he was there to add interesting new storylines and conflicts. Do I know what they intended to do? No, but it doesn't mean my guess (yes, that's all it is) is any less valid. I've been asked that before as well, and if I say they intended or didn't intend to do something, I say it based on what I have seen and read.

Deevil
February 25th, 2007, 03:45 PM
When discussing the 'plot' points, very rarely should you go back and examine what is happening behind the scenes. The magoc of watching the story for what it is - not the semi-political machniations behind the scenes - is lost.

So, by what happened in the story Caldwell could have very well taken military command. And hell, even taking into account Mitch being a reaccuring actor, he still could have taken military command... After all, we have had commanders on Stargate before that we don't see every single episode... it could have worked.

Deevil
February 25th, 2007, 03:46 PM
I know for a fact that Carter is going to put Shep in a pie and eat him.

Ya know. I read the same thing on Wikipedia. The home of all correct fan-updated information...

Killdeer
February 25th, 2007, 03:50 PM
I know for a fact that Carter is going to put Shep in a pie and eat him.


I heard the same thing. You know, shepherd's pie? Only now it's Sheppard pie. ;)

I'm a newbie here, and I have really been trying hard to make friends here, and keep all discussions on the friendly side, even when disagreements occur. That being said, I'm really having a hard time with these comments. And even though I'm scared to make this post, I felt like it needed to be said. While you may not agree with us Sheppard and Weir fans who are concerned, it's not nice to mock our concerns. They may or may not be valid. Who knows at this point? But it does feel as though we are being made fun of for not being happy about the possibility that Carter may replace Weir and possibly Shep as well. You may not agree with us, that's your right, but don't mock us.

Possibly it was not meant the way it came across to me. But it came across to me a lot like you're saying those of us who have concerns are silly and overreacting. Whether we may be or not, I thought this was the place to express our concerns, and dialog with others who may or may not feel the same way. Am I wrong? If so, perhaps this thread should be marked PRO discussion only so that those of us who are not excited about the prospect of Carter taking over will know to take our concerns elsewhere.

RealmOfX
February 25th, 2007, 03:52 PM
Mitch Pileggi(sp?) was added to the recurring cast of SGA. His character, Caldwell, was a ship commander. Do you think tptb intended for him to possibly take over as leader of Atlantis? I don't. In my opinion, he was there to add interesting new storylines and conflicts. Do I know what they intended to do? No, but it doesn't mean my guess (yes, that's all it is) is any less valid. I've been asked that before as well, and if I say they intended or didn't intend to do something, I say it based on what I have seen and read.

OK so you were giving your opinion that's is all I was clarifying because the way you worded it made out as if you knew what TPTB was thinking like from a behind the scenes thing or something. Which, by the way, I would have asked which one so I could watch it :)

Did I at any point say that your opinion is less valid? I have been asking you questions so I could clarify exactly what your point was because you have a definitely unclear style of writing. Perhaps you should start writing and phrasing from your point of view rather than categorically stating what others said or meant and things would be way less misleading.

Deevil
February 25th, 2007, 03:55 PM
Killdeer - We are poking a little fun at the situation not at anyone individually. We are not dismissing anyones concerns, not by any stretch, but that doesn't mean we have to take everything so seriously that we get an ulcer ya know?

In the long run this is only a television show. It's not going to cure world hunger, distroy nuclear weapons, stop domestic violence, prevent paedophilia, stop wars and give me my rightful title as ruler of the free (and yet completely indentured) world. So, having a little fun and no ones expense is not a bad thing. Why would we be here if not to enjoy ourselves?

Ltcolshepjumper
February 25th, 2007, 03:55 PM
So, by what happened in the story Caldwell could have very well taken military command. And hell, even taking into account Mitch being a reaccuring actor, he still could have taken military command... After all, we have had commanders on Stargate before that we don't see every single episode... it could have worked.

Interesting that you would post that. It just happens to be one of the reasons why I feel that command of Atlantis wouldn't be given to her (or, to rephrase that, why she wouldn't be chosen as leader)


OK so you were giving your opinion that's is all I was clarifying because the way you worded it made out as if you knew what TPTB was thinking like from a behind the scenes thing or something. Which, by the way, I would have asked which one so I could watch it :)

Did I at any point say that your opinion is less valid? I have been asking you questions so I could clarify exactly what your point was because you have a definitely unclear style of writing. Perhaps you should start writing and phrasing from your point of view rather than categorically stating what others said or meant and things would be way less misleading. And excuse my "assumption" as I had ben asked a similar question not too long ago (possibly on this thread). My apologies.

ReganX
February 25th, 2007, 04:00 PM
Interesting that you would post that. It just happens to be one of the reasons why I feel that command of Atlantis wouldn't be given to her (or, to rephrase that, why she would be chosen as leader)

And excuse my "assumption" as I had ben asked a similar question not too long ago (possibly on this thread). My apologies.

Because Caldwell didn't get the job or because if anyone was to replace Weir, he would.

Just to clarify - was Caldwell being considered for command of Atlantis as a whole or for the position of military leader under Weir?

Ltcolshepjumper
February 25th, 2007, 04:05 PM
1)Because Caldwell didn't get the job or 2)because if anyone was to replace Weir, he would.

Just to clarify - was Caldwell being considered for command of Atlantis as a whole or for the position of military leader under Weir?

Opinion #2. As for the second question, I'll have to go back and look. But it seemed like both, at least by Misbegotten it was both.

the dancer of spaz
February 25th, 2007, 04:08 PM
Disclaimer: speculation...

It's possible that having Mitch Pileggi stay on board in a lead role, as the leader of the expedition, was one of the "three options" JM and Co. were throwing around several months ago.

Deevil
February 25th, 2007, 04:08 PM
Nope, Caldwell was up for military commander, nothing else.

Add to that, as far as Carter becoming the commander of the base - why would they have a Lt. Col. or at most a newly promoted Col. as the commander of Atlantis... something about that sounds odd to my ears.

Killdeer
February 25th, 2007, 04:09 PM
Killdeer - We are poking a little fun at the situation not at anyone individually. We are not dismissing anyones concerns, not by any stretch, but that doesn't mean we have to take everything so seriously that we get an ulcer ya know?

In the long run this is only a television show. It's not going to cure world hunger, distroy nuclear weapons, stop domestic violence, prevent paedophilia, stop wars and give me my rightful title as ruler of the free (and yet completely indentured) world. So, having a little fun and no ones expense is not a bad thing. Why would we be here if not to enjoy ourselves?

I appreciate what you're saying here, and I totally agree. But I can't see that these comments were made at no one's expense. While I don't feel individually singled out, I do feel like my (and others) concerns are the target of these comments.

Not against fun, but it's only fun if everyone enjoys the joke.

Uber
February 25th, 2007, 04:10 PM
Opinion #2. As for the second question, I'll have to go back and look. But it seemed like both, at least by Misbegotten it was both.I think Caldwell saw what was happening behind the scenes too. I think the IOA wants to get rid of Weir...they certainly are doing a bang up job of making her insignificant/irrelevant in her role [see First Strike]; and while they're not keen on militarizing Atlantis, they might be forced to do so. But I saw Woolsey's comments to Caldwell as more of a ploy to get him to "turn" on Weir rather than any real affirmation of the IOA's support for her.

I respected the fact that he didn't go along with Woolsey's machinations. It showed to me that he has real character.

the dancer of spaz
February 25th, 2007, 04:10 PM
Nope, Caldwell was up for military commander, nothing else.

Add to that, as far as Carter becoming the commander of the base - why would they have a Lt. Col. or at most a newly promoted Col. as the commander of Atlantis... something about that sounds odd to my ears.

I still think Carter's going to be a sort of liaison (not in the traditional sense), whose expertise in all fields allows her the opportunity to stay in contact between the IOA, the Pentagon, the SGC and Atlantis, while making decisions that don't altogether disregard Sheppard's experience.

She may have the official "leader" title, but I think she'll be the combination of players that makes everyone happy - or, at least, less wary. I like the idea of her being able to come in, listen to Sheppard, McKay, etc., gain their perspective, and then go back home to go to bat for them in D.C.

Uber
February 25th, 2007, 04:12 PM
I appreciate what you're saying here, and I totally agree. But I can't see that these comments were made at no one's expense. While I don't feel individually singled out, I do feel like my (and others) concerns are the target of these comments.

Not against fun, but it's only fun if everyone enjoys the joke.Killdeer...

I love Shep. I wish he had a bit more substance, but I do love him. I don't get how being a little silly at the expense of characters we appreciate somehow mocks the fans of those characters...especially since we too are fans of the characters.

I will say that I'm torn to absolute shreds that no one appreciated my play on Shep's name. *sniffle*

;)

Ltcolshepjumper
February 25th, 2007, 04:13 PM
I think Caldwell saw what was happening behind the scenes too. I think the IOA wants to get rid of Weir...they certainly are doing a bang up job of making her insignificant/irrelevant in her role [see First Strike]; and while they're not keen on militarizing Atlantis, they might be forced to do so. But I saw Woolsey's comments to Caldwell as more of a ploy to get him to "turn" on Weir rather than any real affirmation of the IOA's support [lack of?] for her.

I respected the fact that he didn't go along with Woolsey's machinations. It showed to me that he has real character.

I believe they did consider him for leadership of Atlantis in Intruder, but yes, he has real character (and sadly it seemed he actually got more character development than the main cast) and definitely has the leadership skills necessary to lead atlantis (seen in TLG). But, I think Carter being a regular and TH leaving are linked, if indirectly, to each other.


Nope, Caldwell was up for military commander, nothing else.

Add to that, as far as Carter becoming the commander of the base - why would they have a Lt. Col. or at most a newly promoted Col. as the commander of Atlantis... something about that sounds odd to my ears.

thanks for the clarification. It sounds odd in my ears as well but, tptb are not above odd. And as for Carter being a liason... that's a frightening thought. Carter as an IOA pawn... what a sad job that would be. And doesn't the pentagon already have Davis as a liason between them and the Stargate Program? and Carter seems to lack that key political aspect that would enable her to deal with the IOA (that is, dealing w/ them w/o having a stroke)

Deevil
February 25th, 2007, 04:15 PM
I appreciate what you're saying here, and I totally agree. But I can't see that these comments were made at no one's expense. While I don't feel individually singled out, I do feel like my (and others) concerns are the target of these comments.

Not against fun, but it's only fun if everyone enjoys the joke.

If that was true, comedy wouldn't exist. Not everyone enjoys a joke - fact of life.

If you feel your concerns are being made fun of, well, that kind of sucks. But they weren't. I am here to have a good time in the end, I don't pretend that anything here is the be all and end all of life. If I stoped having even a modicum of fun, I'd stop coming here (and did for quite awhile). In the end, only you can allow yourself to feel victimised by a joke that wasn't even at anyones expense. I will not take responsibility for someone elses feelings. I wont actively do anything to hurt anyone, but I wont actively stop being me to prevent it either.

I'm sorry if this upsets you.

And Uber, I loved your play of Sheps name :D. Hmm, and it's my fav kind of pie!

Uber
February 25th, 2007, 04:22 PM
thanks for the clarification. It sounds odd in my ears as well but, tptb are not above odd. And as for Carter being a liason... that's a frightening thought. Carter as an IOA pawn... what a sad job that would be. And doesn't the pentagon already have Davis as a liason between them and the Stargate Program? and Carter seems to lack that key political aspect that would enable her to deal with the IOA (that is, dealing w/ them w/o having a stroke)I doubt she'd be a pawn.

We've seen how entirely unimpressed she is with political/bureaucratic pressures and the IOA know that about her. So if they pick her, they'll know in advance what they're getting.

Deevil
February 25th, 2007, 04:25 PM
Ya know. My bet is they are gonna port her over to work with McKay to get a ZPM working or make one... and occasionally she is going to be in the position to help out with other problems...

Either that, or she and McKat decided they wanted to procreate.

RealmOfX
February 25th, 2007, 04:28 PM
Killdeer...

I love Shep. I wish he had a bit more substance, but I do love him. I don't get how being a little silly at the expense of characters we appreciate somehow mocks the fans of those characters...especially since we too are fans of the characters.

I will say that I'm torn to absolute shreds that no one appreciated my play on Shep's name. *sniffle*

;)

I did Oooober but I'm still trying to get over the idea of making mince meat out of Shep!!! Nooooooooooooooo!

Actually Killdeer I think that no one's opinion or worries was being made fun of but rather certain peoples insistence on stating their opinion as fact and making unsubstantiated claims. The more they persist in doing that, the more people will highlight it with sarcastic humour. Some may or may not get it.

I am worried about the changes that are happening to Atlantis but my worries are less about the characters involved and more about TPTB's ability to creatively make the changes convincingly. However that does not stop me from appreciating the more warped humour used by some of the Poms and Aussies on this thread to highlight certain peoples insistence of stating their opinion as fact. Some of the Yanks are warped too :D

Deevil
February 25th, 2007, 04:33 PM
Aussies and Poms have a warped sense of humour?

RoX, I resemble that remark!! It's offensive and tired to actual tell the truth. I just can't stand for it any longer.

Next thing you'll do is say that VB isn't a good beer. Then, then the worse will happen... You'll acknowledge we are all freaks and encourage monkey dancing in order to ensure TPTB can be focused on their task.

RealmOfX
February 25th, 2007, 04:38 PM
I think Caldwell saw what was happening behind the scenes too. I think the IOA wants to get rid of Weir...they certainly are doing a bang up job of making her insignificant/irrelevant in her role [see First Strike]; and while they're not keen on militarizing Atlantis, they might be forced to do so. But I saw Woolsey's comments to Caldwell as more of a ploy to get him to "turn" on Weir rather than any real affirmation of the IOA's support for her.

I respected the fact that he didn't go along with Woolsey's machinations. It showed to me that he has real character.

That was the way I was interpreting the scenes too.


I doubt she'd be a pawn.

We've seen how entirely unimpressed she is with political/bureaucratic pressures and the IOA know that about her. So if they pick her, they'll know in advance what they're getting.

Oh deary me no! Definitely not a pawn. General Jacob Carter's daughter Lt Colonel Samantha Carter is no one's political pawn!


Aussies and Poms have a warped sense of humour?

RoX, I resemble that remark!! It's offensive and tired to actual tell the truth. I just can't stand for it any longer.

Next thing you'll do is say that VB isn't a good beer. Then, then the worse will happen... You'll acknowledge we are all freaks and encourage monkey dancing in order to ensure TPTB can be focused on their task.

:D :D what state are you from again? So I know which beer to insult :D

Deevil
February 25th, 2007, 04:41 PM
what state are you from again? So I know which beer to insult

The only state that counts NSW... Everything else is just fodder :D.

Major Tyler
February 25th, 2007, 04:42 PM
The only state that counts NSW... Everything else is just fodder :D.New South Wales?

Linzi
February 25th, 2007, 04:42 PM
Killdeer...

I love Shep. I wish he had a bit more substance, but I do love him. I don't get how being a little silly at the expense of characters we appreciate somehow mocks the fans of those characters...especially since we too are fans of the characters.

I will say that I'm torn to absolute shreds that no one appreciated my play on Shep's name. *sniffle*

;)
I'm a MASSIVE, (well not literally, I'm actually quite small ;)) Sheppard fan. I've often made a joke about Sheppard's Pie myself. Though eating a piece of it wasn't quite what I had in mind...;) *Runs off to the JFT before I get mashed potato thrown at me*

the dancer of spaz
February 25th, 2007, 04:44 PM
As Ooober said, more recent episodes like "The Scourge" show how rather un-pawnlike Sam can be when it comes to bowing down to the members of the IOA. If nothing else, after Woolsey's interaction with SG-1 in that episode, he seemed to respect her. I don't know... I think she's one of those people who's managed to gain the trust of mostly everybody.

But it'll be cool to see her gain the true trust of the members of Atlantis. I don't want to see the scientists fanboi/fangurl all over her and praise her, nor do I want everyone in Atlantis to jump to attention at every move she makes. But I do think it would be realistic for her to gain their trust over time, and for some of that trust to already be instill in the crew, because of her history with the Stargate Program.

ETA: As for Carter/McKay Procreation... The Pentagon may make that one of Carter's specific mandates when she gets there. You know, to ensure that the brilliance continues in some form some years down the road. :P

Ltcolshepjumper
February 25th, 2007, 04:47 PM
Ya know. My bet is they are gonna port her over to work with McKay to get a ZPM working or make one... and occasionally she is going to be in the position to help out with other problems...

Either that, or she and McKay decided they wanted to procreate.

I doubt any amount of Carter's, or anyone's knowledge will help them make a ZPM. But Carter actually deciding to procreate w/ Mckay... Mckay may decide that, but Carter... must be desperate to make a move like that.

Woolsey seems to be the most sincere out of all the IOA members. He's certainly the most understanding.

RealmOfX
February 25th, 2007, 05:00 PM
The only state that counts NSW... Everything else is just fodder :D.

Oh so true!!

*looks around for imminent attacks from banana benders or Melbournite's*


New South Wales?

Yep.


I'm a MASSIVE, (well not literally, I'm actually quite small ;)) Sheppard fan. I've often made a joke about Sheppard's Pie myself. Though eating a piece of it wasn't quite what I had in mind...;) *Runs off to the JFT before I get mashed potato thrown at me*

I'm not a thunker but I can sooooooo appreciate those sentiments :D


As Ooober said, more recent episodes like "The Scourge" show how rather un-pawnlike Sam can be when it comes to bowing down to the members of the IOA. If nothing else, after Woolsey's interaction with SG-1 in that episode, he seemed to respect her. I don't know... I think she's one of those people who's managed to gain the trust of mostly everybody.

But it'll be cool to see her gain the true trust of the members of Atlantis. I don't want to see the scientists fanboi/fangurl all over her and praise her, nor do I want everyone in Atlantis to jump to attention at every move she makes. But I do think it would be realistic for her to gain their trust over time, and for some of that trust to already be instill in the crew, because of her history with the Stargate Program.

You mean do something realistic for a change and use the situation to develop all the characters? Very innovative, maybe TPTB will try it someday ;)

Actually, all snark aside if Sam were to be made leader then this is how I'd hope it would be handled. It still doesn't change my view that I'd prefer Weir to remain but TPTB have made certain decisions and we have to deal or not deal with them.

I just hope that whatever they choose to do that it doesn't end up like SG-1 where it was 25 eps to cancellation (and the cynic in me says they may not have gotten that far if not for Skiffy wanting a record). Atlantis cannot afford to lose a third of it's viewership.

Deevil
February 25th, 2007, 05:00 PM
I doubt any amount of Carter's, or anyone's knowledge will help them make a ZPM.

But her going there to help make one, or fix one, if just as likely as every other possibility that has been presented...

Ltcolshepjumper
February 25th, 2007, 05:17 PM
I just hope that whatever they choose to do that it doesn't end up like SG-1 where it was 25 eps to cancellation (and the cynic in me says they may not have gotten that far if not for Skiffy wanting a record). Atlantis cannot afford to lose a third of it's viewership.

So true. Hopefully Scifi has enough faith in SGA to give it a chance. I hope it doesn't end up like SG-1 period. I for one like the different mood SGA has. Not as much rigidness in SGA as there was in SG-1.

Killdeer
February 25th, 2007, 05:22 PM
I'm a MASSIVE, (well not literally, I'm actually quite small ;)) Sheppard fan. I've often made a joke about Sheppard's Pie myself. Though eating a piece of it wasn't quite what I had in mind...;) *Runs off to the JFT before I get mashed potato thrown at me*

I'm not a thunker but I can sooooooo appreciate those sentiments :D

<grin> I can agree with that. No hard feelings guys.;)

scarimor
February 26th, 2007, 02:47 AM
I'm a newbie here, and I have really been trying hard to make friends here, and keep all discussions on the friendly side, even when disagreements occur. That being said, I'm really having a hard time with these comments. And even though I'm scared to make this post, I felt like it needed to be said. While you may not agree with us Sheppard and Weir fans who are concerned, it's not nice to mock our concerns. They may or may not be valid. Who knows at this point? But it does feel as though we are being made fun of for not being happy about the possibility that Carter may replace Weir and possibly Shep as well. You may not agree with us, that's your right, but don't mock us.

Possibly it was not meant the way it came across to me. But it came across to me a lot like you're saying those of us who have concerns are silly and overreacting. Whether we may be or not, I thought this was the place to express our concerns, and dialog with others who may or may not feel the same way. Am I wrong? If so, perhaps this thread should be marked PRO discussion only so that those of us who are not excited about the prospect of Carter taking over will know to take our concerns elsewhere.
Your offense is totally unwarranted. GW is as much a place to have fun. Your suggestion that we're mocking you is without foundation and insulting.

There, do you feel better now that I've pretended to take offense? :p ;)

Seriously though, the humour was aimed at assertions made as though they are fact, which have no basis. If people want to leave themselves open to being called on that by doing it, it's their funeral :)

Killdeer
February 26th, 2007, 08:47 AM
Your offense is totally unwarranted. GW is as much a place to have fun. Your suggestion that we're mocking you is without foundation and insulting.

There, do you feel better now that I've pretended to take offense? :p ;)

<grin> Is this a trick question? I never wanted you to take offense in the first place, so I'm not quite sure how to answer that! :D Actually, I never thought I personally was being mocked. I was only trying to point out that people who had concerns might feel that their concerns weren't being taken seriously, or might not feel welcome. Possibly there's a better way I could have worded it. I'm one of those people who can write and rewrite something a dozen times, so...


Seriously though, the humour was aimed at assertions made as though they are fact, which have no basis. If people want to leave themselves open to being called on that by doing it, it's their funeral :)

I understand what you're saying, and you do have a point. I just thought maybe you all might not have realized how it might come across to someone with a different perspective on the situation. However, that being said, I've said my say, you all have said your say, and I'm very happy to leave it at that! :) Not much one for pot stirring, and as I said a couple of posts ago, no hard feelings! Thanks for your replies. Moving right along now.......:D

scarimor
February 26th, 2007, 10:18 AM
:)

Chailyn
February 26th, 2007, 11:09 AM
If Carter takes command of Altantis then I assume that the US military will be taking control of everything, like an SGC Pt. 2. If that occurs, then I hope the international community pulls out their people. Right now Atlantis is an international force, which includes both soldiers and scientists. Sheppard, as a US military commander, all ready commands the soldiers, including those from other countries. The international community went along with this, I assume, because a civilian, Weir, was in charge, who reported to the IOA. And Sheppard reported to her.

If the US military takes total control of everything, then I can't see all those other countries deciding to stay. Look at how hard it was for just the Russians and the SGC to cooperate, now there are dozens of other countries involved too. It would be a political fairy-tale if everything was just peachy.

It'll be the only realistic thing to do. If the US military takes over, then I want the international community out. You can't have your cake and eat it too. There are always political consequences. Make it an SGC pt. II.

I like the international flavor of the show and would like it to remain that way, but if Carter takes over I can't logically see it happening. :(

Major Tyler
February 26th, 2007, 11:49 AM
If Carter takes command of Altantis then I assume that the US military will be taking control of everything, like an SGC Pt. 2. If that occurs, then I hope the international community pulls out their people.Let time I checked, the United States is still a member of the international community.

Atlantis1
February 26th, 2007, 12:36 PM
Let time I checked, the United States is still a member of the international community.


One part of the International community.
On SGA, we have lost several favorite characters in just three years. I really cannot understand the lack of unserstanding of some people when it comes to the concerns of the SGA fans on this board. We lost Grodin, Bates, Ford and now Beckett in just three years. Can't our fears be reconized?

scarimor
February 26th, 2007, 01:21 PM
Can't our fears be reconized?
What makes you think they aren't?

Not sharing them doesn't mean not recognising them. And there are fans who are delighted that Carter is going to Atlantis who share some of those fears.

What makes you think you're so hard done by?

silk101
February 26th, 2007, 01:51 PM
Personally im a SG1 purist although i have watched some episodes of Atlantis. I think that having Carter in Atlantis will not ruin it at all as long as it does not interfere with what already going on in Atlantis. If they want to make her play a big role then they should gradually do it. Maybe ill get into it more as im a big AT fan.

Deevil
February 26th, 2007, 03:05 PM
On SGA, we have lost several favorite characters in just three years. I really cannot understand the lack of unserstanding of some people when it comes to the concerns of the SGA fans on this board. We lost Grodin, Bates, Ford and now Beckett in just three years. Can't our fears be reconized?

Sure, they're recognised. But ya know, I kinda like the fact that there is a high character turn over in the maincast of Atlantis (yeah, very diappointed about who has left - but ya know), because otherwise it's all about the red-shirts, and there is no threat. So while most of the characters are waaaay to 2 dimensional for me to care they are gone, more then the usual "I'll miss thier face" (Carson I will really really miss), I have to say the threat, the fact that it is possible unless you are Shep or McKay you may die. I quite enjoy that. So while I understand you fears, I don't share them...

Well, actually, I am not sure what fears I am not sharing, but I don't like sharing... things are just mine.

Ltcolshepjumper
February 26th, 2007, 03:17 PM
Sure, they're recognised. But ya know, I kinda like the fact that there is a high character turn over in the maincast of Atlantis (yeah, very diappointed about who has left - but ya know), because otherwise it's all about the red-shirts, and there is no threat. So while most of the characters are waaaay to 2 dimensional for me to care they are gone, more then the usual "I'll miss thier face" (Carson I will really really miss), I have to say the threat, the fact that it is possible unless you are Shep or McKay you may die. I quite enjoy that. So while I understand you fears, I don't share them...

Well, actually, I am not sure what fears I am not sharing, but I don't like sharing... things are just mine.

A turn over of a cast member in itself isn't bad, but a high turn over in the cast is a cause for concern, especially if they are two characters that have been underwritten. And for me, I don't think its ok for everyone to die except Mckay or shep because, in addition to them both, Weir helped make up what was the essence of SGA (don't ask me what that is, b/c I still don't know). Weir, Shep, and Mckay were really the ones who made SGA a good show, and kept the show different from SG-1. Without Weir, there is a big gap in that.

Deevil
February 26th, 2007, 03:34 PM
Weir, Shep, and Mckay were really the ones who made SGA a good show, and kept the show different from SG-1. Without Weir, there is a big gap in that.

Weir isn't so much a character as she is just 'there' most of the time. She hasn't really, in the grand scheme of things made a huge impact, and I can't help but wonder if I will really even notice her missing - apart from missing seeing her face. I ma not sure there will ba any gap.


A turn over of a cast member in itself isn't bad, but a high turn over in the cast is a cause for concern, especially if they are two characters that have been underwritten.

And that would be every character except McKay, and maybe even Sheppard to a point. BTW, loosing 3 characters permantly (because we still don't know what will happen with Weir) does not equal a high cast turn over. Considering 1 of them was reaccuring, and still quite underdeveloped.

As for do I think McKay and Sheppard should be the only safe ones, no I don't - but TPTB seem too. After all, they are the only ones who seem to have any kind of extranious development.

Night Spring
February 26th, 2007, 03:50 PM
Weir isn't so much a character as she is just 'there' most of the time. She hasn't really, in the grand scheme of things made a huge impact, and I can't help but wonder if I will really even notice her missing - apart from missing seeing her face. I ma not sure there will ba any gap.
Er, if you think Weir is just "there" most of the time, I have to laugh at the thought of what you must think of Ronon and Teyla! In my view, out of all the characters in Atlantis, after McKay and Sheppard, Weir seemed the most developed. Her portrayal was not always convincing, mind you, but I believe the attempt to develop her character was there, much more than for Ronon and Teyla.

Deevil
February 26th, 2007, 03:58 PM
Okay, answer me this... What the hell did Weir do, other then send people off to do stuff and say no? Where was her character development? Teyla has had, very slightly, more character development, as has Ronan. But honestly, they aren't anything more then 2 dimensional characters who are also relegated to excessively high paid extras a good deal of the time.

Ltcolshepjumper
February 26th, 2007, 04:04 PM
Weir isn't so much a character as she is just 'there' most of the time. She hasn't really, in the grand scheme of things made a huge impact, and I can't help but wonder if I will really even notice her missing - apart from missing seeing her face. I ma not sure there will ba any gap.



And that would be every character except McKay, and maybe even Sheppard to a point. BTW, loosing 3 characters permantly (because we still don't know what will happen with Weir) does not equal a high cast turn over. Considering 1 of them was reaccuring, and still quite underdeveloped.

As for do I think McKay and Sheppard should be the only safe ones, no I don't - but TPTB seem too. After all, they are the only ones who seem to have any kind of extranious development.

Yeah, I think it does. If half the cast is subsequently replaced, then yes, that's a high cast turn over.

the dancer of spaz
February 26th, 2007, 04:07 PM
I don't think Weir did much more than send people offworld, attend diplomatic missions that went horribly wrong, and say no a lot - oh, and have her command undermined by Shep and McKay in many instances.

I like Weir, and I like being able to infer a certain level of character development, thanks to Torri Higginson's portrayal (her relationship with her father and mother, her friendship with Jack O'Neill, etc.). However, beyond those meager moments, she's not much farther ahead of Ronon and Teyla.

They made leaps and bounds with Ronon in the very good ep, Sateda, but I suspect they did that because of the opportunity for big guns and explosions. :P

I like all of the characters equally, and I don't know if that's a testament to how equally undeveloped they all are to some extent - including Rodney - or not. To be honest, screen time and lines does not equal character development. And it seems to me that a good portion of Weir's fans like her because she's one half of Shweir... Maybe not? I dunno.

Deevil
February 26th, 2007, 04:08 PM
Umm, half the cast hasn't been replaced.

Weir is coming back.

Ford has gone (I still say yay over that).

Carson has gone.

So - that's 2 characters. Not half the cast.

Deevil
February 26th, 2007, 04:13 PM
I like Weir, and I like being able to infer a certain level of character development, thanks to Torri Higginson's portrayal (her relationship with her father and mother, her friendship with Jack O'Neill, etc.). However, beyond those meager moments, she's not much farther ahead of Ronon and Teyla.

That is the exact reason why I like Weir, and Teyla. It's nothing to do with what has been scripted or directed, but because they are chrismatic enough to make me like to watch them - even when they are standing around doing nothing while Shep and McKay do everything.

Skydiver
February 26th, 2007, 04:21 PM
Weir had some episodes like Before i sleep and Real World for fans to dig into her psyche. Just like Ronon had Sateda. Teyla...oh there was that one where her mentor died but over all she's pretty much ignored

In fact, if it's not the Shep/McKay banter hour, everyone else tends to get ignored.

Which is really a shame because they all have so much to offer

Night Spring
February 26th, 2007, 04:22 PM
Okay, answer me this... What the hell did Weir do, other then send people off to do stuff and say no? Where was her character development? Teyla has had, very slightly, more character development, as has Ronan. But honestly, they aren't anything more then 2 dimensional characters who are also relegated to excessively high paid extras a good deal of the time.
First of all, there's more to sending people off to do stuff and saying no than just saying the orders. There are many scenes where Weir is shown deliberating her options before coming to a decision. Whether these scenes are effective or not are open to debate, but IMO, they are at least an attempt to show character development.

She's also shown having conflicts with Caldwell, Woolsey, Ellis, the IOA. There was a rather extended scene of Weir and Landry talking various things over in -- I believe it was in No Man's Land, but it may have been in Allies. Again, the effectiveness of these scenes may vary, but they are all attempts at character development.

Weir has had two significant episodes where her character was the central figure -- The Real World and Before I Sleep. (hmmm, there was no Weir episode in S2? is that right?) I know Teyla and Ronon have also had these types of episodes. I think the ratio right now is about even, though again, this is open to interpretation.

Lastly, I want to say that the character that's "just there," sending people off to do stuff and saying no, is usually crucial to setting the tone of the series. O'Neill sending off the team had a very different feel from Hammond, and Landry is again different from both of them. Weir sending off the team in Atlantis again has its very distinct feel, and personally, it's the thing I love most about this character, and I'd miss it a lot if she wasn't in Atlantis to do that.

Deevil
February 26th, 2007, 04:27 PM
Weir had some episodes like Before i sleep and Real World for fans to dig into her psyche. Just like Ronon had Sateda. Teyla...oh there was that one where her mentor died but over all she's pretty much ignored

In fact, if it's not the Shep/McKay banter hour, everyone else tends to get ignored.

Which is really a shame because they all have so much to offer

See that's my point. And while she has had a couple of episodes, she still hasn;t had much development; neither have Teyla or Ronan. And hell, as a general whole the most development on the show is about Shep and McKay's comedic timing...

Honestly, coming into the 4th season we should have some very well rounded characters, not 2 dimesional paper cut-outs... and that's why apart from missing Weir's face (and the fact she does care about the crew), I have nothing otherwise of value to say I'll miss. That kind of saddens me actually.

Night Spring
February 26th, 2007, 04:29 PM
Umm, half the cast hasn't been replaced.

Weir is coming back.

Ford has gone (I still say yay over that).

Carson has gone.

So - that's 2 characters. Not half the cast.

We don't know yet if Weir will really be back or not. Ford came back for the mid-season two parter and then disappeared -- so far for good. The same kind of thing *could* happen to Weir, or she could be there as much as Carson was in S1, we don't know yet.

*If* it turns out Weir does a Ford, then that's three out of six, so half the cast.

Deevil
February 26th, 2007, 04:40 PM
Weir will be back... for how long is anyones guess - but at the moment she has yet to have made a permanent departure. So, at the moment half to cast has yet to leave.

And frankly, I still don't consider loosing one characater a year, on a mission that is on the other side of the universe, as terribly bad. If anything, it's rather realistic... and the red shirt mentally has always annoyed me, this annoys me less.

Skydiver
February 26th, 2007, 04:45 PM
Honestly, coming into the 4th season we should have some very well rounded characters, not 2 dimesional paper cut-outs... and that's why apart from missing Weir's face (and the fact she does care about the crew), I have nothing otherwise of value to say I'll miss. That kind of saddens me actually.

I respect that folks are attached to the characters. And i understand how they feel and how they are mourning the loss of said characters. Yet, FOR ME, there's no one on that city beyond Lorne that i'm attached to.

Rod is funny, but his rants get old after about 30 seconds. Shep is enjoyable and roguish and quirky, but it gets old really fast. And since most of the show is centered around shep getting into trouble, rod ranting, shep yelling at rod, rod saving the day, shep being the hero...there's not much left.

To me, this focus on the shep and rod banter hour has been to the detriment of all the other characters, especially elizabeth since she is often made to look ineffectual to pump up the 'rogueish hero' image of shep's.

I think that's why i'm not too worried bout the addition of Sam harming the development of the characters. She doesn't need to be developed, she already has been. And given the writers' obsessive fixation on shep and rod, i just don't see her being put front and center. If they couldn't do it with the others in 3 years, i don't see them doing it with sam in one.

The main reason i see Sam joining the show is simple convenience. For whatever reason, Torri was gone, they needed to fill the gap and cast the a role, AT was convenient in that there was no negotiation required. She was there, she was handy, she's being used to fill the role.

travis
February 26th, 2007, 05:06 PM
You'd hope that'd be the case but sadly it isn't so.Sure.

And as an Atlantis fan, and heck...just as a FAN in general, I get the way people are feeling. But now we know some important facts...and that is that whatever people feel about the decisions that were made, Weir was NOT removed to make room for Carter.

You see thats the thing, wheather this decsion was made past present or future makes no different the fact that her character has been brought over has caused conflict between fans. Lets face it when characters are replace, reduce, added etc is just a double edge sword plain and simple.

Do I like whats happening to Weir no, Do I hate Sam no, am I a little bit defensive and protective yes. Sam has a history with stargate for 10 years of being a main character and I've enjoyed her dearly, can she be leader or replace Weir yes as she is very intelligent and competent and has the experience that no one can really deny. But do I want her to replace Weir no. If it does happen yes I will be very sad but will not lose my sleep over it as after all it is fiction/TV show. It's just that After having her on Atlantis for 3 years as leader and mind you never have I had a issue with her decsion though I'm sure many would argue about that. I find her leadership very refreshing to the whole gung ho I must have balls attitude, lol we get enough of those on other shows.
When I first saw Atlantis and saw what Weir offered to the show I new I'll embrace it with no doubt but thats just me. Plus after 3 years of Atlantis I really like the dynamic of the characters and to have Sam over will definatly change it, better or worse I can not say nor any one until it airs. In honesty I have to say that I will continue to watch Atlantis as it's one of my favorite show, I for one do not stop watching a show because a character is killed off or reduce role tho their absent will be highly missed, I simply stop watching a show when I'm not entertained anymore pure and simple. I try to optimistic and believe that all this shuffling will have a postive out come for all.:)

Melora
February 26th, 2007, 05:22 PM
Lastly, I want to say that the character that's "just there," sending people off to do stuff and saying no, is usually crucial to setting the tone of the series. O'Neill sending off the team had a very different feel from Hammond, and Landry is again different from both of them. Weir sending off the team in Atlantis again has its very distinct feel, and personally, it's the thing I love most about this character, and I'd miss it a lot if she wasn't in Atlantis to do that.

I very much agree with this. Hammond didn’t do much on SG-1, but I have sorely missed his presence at the SGC. As much as I like Beau Bridges, I just have not warmed to Landry like I did with Hammond. He set the tone and was like a father-figure/protector for the base. I feel a similar way towards Weir.

I was watching “The Hive” a couple of weeks ago. Now this was an ep in which Weir had very little to do. She was back at the base and the team was out saving the day. But towards the end there was this little scene when the team dialed in unexpectedly. Weir didn’t have a lot of dialogue, she didn’t have much to do, but TH just played the scene so beautifully. Her expression of relief and happiness that her team was okay and coming home safe just said everything. And there are many other scenes like that one.

It made me realize how much I would miss Weir if she were no longer in command. I have to admit, many of my favorite SGA eps are Weir episodes and I am a big fan of the character and actress. But it is the little moments like in “The Hive” that I would miss the most.

That is why I am really hoping that Weir will either remain in command or will only be temporarily replaced. Don't get me wrong, I am very much looking forward to Sam being on SGA and I certainly won’t be disappointed if they put her in command, but I will definitely miss Weir if that is the case.

vaberella
February 26th, 2007, 07:22 PM
Weir had some episodes like Before i sleep and Real World for fans to dig into her psyche. Just like Ronon had Sateda. Teyla...oh there was that one where her mentor died but over all she's pretty much ignored

In fact, if it's not the Shep/McKay banter hour, everyone else tends to get ignored.

Which is really a shame because they all have so much to offer

In Before I Sleep---there was no character development, but it was a character episode. Much like Common Ground wasn't a character development ep for John, just an episode. For Weir, character development or aspects there of in eps like Thirty-Eight Minutes (which was bloody awful for her, and made her appear a nit-wit) or eps like Critical Mass, Michael, Intruder, Poisoning the Well, and most definitely Common Ground, and a few others. As for The Real World---we have back story but nothing really digging deep into her psyche, besides the fact she's afraid of shadows, sees water in her closet, and might have a thing for Simon or Jack O'Neill since he dominated her thoughts. John touched her and guided her back---but there's nothing to connect herself to the rest of the people on SGA (except John). Also, there is free internet usage in an asylum. This is not to downgrade the ep, but this could have been done for Ford and most people other than Ford fans would have been like, what's the purpose?

Overall, her development has reached it's point because it focuses around arguing with the IOA and making mainly bad decisions in situations broken in by some alright decisions and saying 'Yes or No' to other decisions. She then reaches an empasse on development.

Where can you go with Weir from that point? What can you bring up that will garner interest---besides her just being there that the Weir fanatics willl always love. Not much.


Ronon and Teyla---have had development. There is a poignant change in Teyla from S1 to S2, she goes from being under suspicion and really not feeling the team ( a loner (which is completely understandable)) to being an important team member and also you see her care for the team overall. You have Ronon who had great development through out although seems to have more dominant scenes fighting. Plus Sateda was a development AND backstory for him. Ronon feels for the team and would give himself up for the team, not to mention we know his home planet and a bit more about being a Runner and who turned him. That's serious development/backstory that Weir really wasn't given. He hugged CArson and thanked him, he practically cried...that's intense, especially for Ronon.

What's also different about the Ronon/Teyla and Weir situation is that because you know nothing about them and they are from the PG---they have LIMITLESS storyline. If the writers wanted to, they could practically base the entire series on these two, since they are from the PG, they have enemies and friends, they might have family we dont' now about? Secret alliances as well, prophecies they might know of; like Teyla and the eventual awakening of the wraith (which we heard about in Rising). Are there more prophecies like that? What of Teyla's gene? Why was Ronon a Runner? How did Teyla's father know of the Runners?

I mean these two characters are the money cards. To develop them too early in the series, that's like calling a win in a poker game 20 minutes into it, when an hour later your hand could be worth 50 times that. These two are important to storyline----how much more can we have in Weir storyline? Her becoming an Ancient and then she can't do anything?

This is why I am not bothered by the little Ronon/Teyla---I have seen development because I pay attention to aspects of the show. I see that both Ronon and Teyla have a sense of humor and rag on the guys. I see that they can be weak, I see that they have their faults. That's character development. What is missing for Teyla is backstory with more possible developement if she's having to choose sides? ditto for Ronon much like we saw in Trinity.

These two have storylines for the show. Weir on the other hand? Not much, or anything interesting. TRW was a snooze fest, I stayed awake to look at RDA really.

-------------------------------------------------------------------------

The writers could work with Weir, but they'd have to bring her in during special moments that really could use her and make her shine. Again rather substance than crumbs.

What I think a lot of people are forgetting is that you can't look to one episode for character development. One episode doesn't sum up everything for the character or who the character is. So by listing those two because they dominate in Weir presence, doesn't mean she's had much character development. If you pay attention to ALL the episodes throughout the seasons and look at the scenes and how each character reacts, acts, or appears----you'll notice a considerable change in perspective.

Quantity doesn't mean quality, which needs to be remembered. I think Sheppard is remarkably underdeveloped---except in mainly S3--where I see a plethora of different attitudes. McKay is definitely the star with development. Teyla's evolution on the show is definitely something people would see if they bothered too, this is the same with Ronon. These two may not have many individual episodes, but when it comes to nuances in personality there's plenty to go around. It's like no one paid attention to Teyla's attitude in The Tower (why did she grin when Ronon killed a guy?) Her attitude in LFP? Then her comedy in Aurora...her decision in Trinity this goes on into S3. Same for Ronon in many respects, the big lug almost cried. He talked back and enforced his thoughts in the latter end of S3. His mind set on Wraith, his relations with different types of authority----that's development. How then are they so underdeveloped?

I won't deny I'd love to see more character centered eps, but the writers are pretty good at adding development to a lot of the characters. Some more so than others!

Madeleine
February 27th, 2007, 05:50 AM
I still don't consider loosing one characater a year, on a mission that is on the other side of the universe, as terribly bad. If anything, it's rather realistic... and the red shirt mentally has always annoyed me, this annoys me less.

I agree. A sense of jeopardy can never be maintained unless there's a realistic chance of someone dying, and without genuine jeopardy how can we take the gang seriously when they do their emoting? ;)

Perhaps the reason that so many people *don't* think this way is that SG-1 set the standard, over the best part of five years, with a 100% survival rate despite getting into deadly peril at least twice per episode and four times per season finale :p. Even when a death finally looked to be permanent and a character had left the team (albeit returning for pep talks, moral support and an occasional tweak of the ascended prime directive) he was back within a year, followed by two years where the original four team-members were again the main guys.

And that was how things still were on SG-1 when SG:A started, so no wonder if some people started watching with the mistaken expectation that the cast they began with would be the cast that they'd see in s3 and s5 and s7...

Skydiver
February 27th, 2007, 07:01 AM
one thing that makes some dramas so interesting, like 24, is the fact that, beyond the star, any adn everyone could die in any given eps. so the viewer doesn't have that safety net of 'yeah well they're in the credits so it'll all be fixed by the end'

Pitry
February 27th, 2007, 07:14 AM
Actually, yeah she could. Especially given the fact that the requirements for leading the city have changed drastically and require more of a strategic/military mindset.

Not so sure aboutt hat. If there's one ill define job in SGA, it's what the Atlantis comamnder should do. Is it all about the strategic/ military decisions? Shouldn't the elader of Atlantis, as representative of Earth and the Milky Way as a whole in a new galaxy should be somewhat of a diplomat? Working with the alien races is as important as workign against them. Even more so, I'd say.
I think TPTB made the right call 3 years ago when they made hte base commander a diplomat, rather than military.

Besides, we still don't klnow what Sam's job in SGA will be - she migth not be the leader of Atlantis at all.

obsessed1
February 27th, 2007, 07:31 AM
Mallozzi's the master of vague answers and you can read a lot into 'support' role. but it sounds like she WON'T be on Shep's team, which to me, is important. I want the team dynamic to stay as it is.
but she's going to be in the starting credits and that annoys me more than anything!! urgh!! just such a bad idea :(

Madeleine
February 27th, 2007, 08:01 AM
one thing that makes some dramas so interesting, like 24, is the fact that, beyond the star, any adn everyone could die in any given eps. so the viewer doesn't have that safety net of 'yeah well they're in the credits so it'll all be fixed by the end'

Yes, and although I still think (v personal / JMO / subjective statement ahoy) it was a mistake to kill off Michelle and Tony, I think it would have been a far bigger mistake to keep them alive just for the sake of not upsetting the Tony & Michelle fans like me :D. I've been expecting Bill or Chloe or Curtis to take a hit for ages now, and it's a massive big bonus each episode that they finish up hale and hearty...

... I'm behind the US, being a Sky viewer, so please no one spoil me if one of them is about to pop their clogs. :o

I LOVE it when characters die, especially when I wasn't expecting it. Some deaths are better than others, of course, but if the show is good enough for me to watch in the first place it's generally good enough to make something worthwhile out of the death. Even if it is just heightened realism or heightened sense of danger for the rest of the characters.

FallenAngelII
February 27th, 2007, 08:09 AM
See that's my point. And while she has had a couple of episodes, she still hasn;t had much development; neither have Teyla or Ronan. And hell, as a general whole the most development on the show is about Shep and McKay's comedic timing...

Honestly, coming into the 4th season we should have some very well rounded characters, not 2 dimesional paper cut-outs... and that's why apart from missing Weir's face (and the fact she does care about the crew), I have nothing otherwise of value to say I'll miss. That kind of saddens me actually.
Just because the writers have been unable to write for certain characters doesn't mean substituting them for new ones and even old ones from sister shows is right.

With that logic, Teyla and Ronon should be the next ones to go. Preferrably sometimes soon.

Uber
February 27th, 2007, 09:04 AM
Not so sure aboutt hat. If there's one ill define job in SGA, it's what the Atlantis comamnder should do. Is it all about the strategic/ military decisions? Shouldn't the elader of Atlantis, as representative of Earth and the Milky Way as a whole in a new galaxy should be somewhat of a diplomat? Working with the alien races is as important as workign against them. Even more so, I'd say.
I think TPTB made the right call 3 years ago when they made hte base commander a diplomat, rather than military.Oh I agree. I think it was vitally important for them to have a diplomat be their leader when they first ventured out. What kind of message would it have sent to arrive in a new galaxy and immediately establishing a military base?

But things have changed since then. I think that their circumstances are such that they require a military mind at the helm. That being said, it has to be a tempered mind and a softer touch...not one like Ellis or Caldwell...but someone who's more prone to consider non-military solutions but who also has the experience and ability to plan and carry out military strategy when necessary.
Besides, we still don't klnow what Sam's job in SGA will be - she migth not be the leader of Atlantis at all.You're right...we don't know. But it's the only job I've seen suggested that makes any sense.

Atlantis is fully stocked in scientists and I don't see her taking over McKay's role as lead scientist...and having her as just a commander of a ship seems like a waste of her skills. She won't be on a team...but will be available to back up Shep and can also be a sounding board for scientific ideas for McKay and Zelenka...or at least this is what I've gleaned from the bits we've gotten from the producers.

I think "she comes in her own ship" is to throw people off the scent...but IMHO, I believe anyone taking stock of what's going on in the show and the fact that she was their choice in how to handle the situation "after the decision about Weir was made" have to acknowledge the probability...or at least strong possibility...that this is what she's there to do.

the dancer of spaz
February 27th, 2007, 09:07 AM
I agree. A sense of jeopardy can never be maintained unless there's a realistic chance of someone dying, and without genuine jeopardy how can we take the gang seriously when they do their emoting? ;)

Perhaps the reason that so many people *don't* think this way is that SG-1 set the standard, over the best part of five years, with a 100% survival rate despite getting into deadly peril at least twice per episode and four times per season finale :p. Even when a death finally looked to be permanent and a character had left the team (albeit returning for pep talks, moral support and an occasional tweak of the ascended prime directive) he was back within a year, followed by two years where the original four team-members were again the main guys.

And that was how things still were on SG-1 when SG:A started, so no wonder if some people started watching with the mistaken expectation that the cast they began with would be the cast that they'd see in s3 and s5 and s7...

I agree. A precedent was set with SG-1 years ago, and on top of the lame promise that SG-1 and Atlantis would remain separate entities, I don't blame Atlantis fans for feeling cheated. I, for one, don't like it.

However, I really do think it's indicative of how the team simply hasn't gelled as well as SG-1 did - and if it has, it's hard to tell, imo. I feel like I have to do waaaay to much interpretation of looks, lines and gestures to get the feeling that these guys are as close as SG-1 was. I think a lot of that has to do with the fact that the Atlantis team is constantly divided (much like SG-1 in seasons 9 and 10), where we're not really given the chance to see how they all work together to get out of a bind. It seems to either be Shep or McKay most of the time, which works to some extent, but gets rather bland after a while.

I think TPTB, as others have said, made the other characters expendable, which was definitely not the case with SG-1 years ago.

Skydiver
February 27th, 2007, 09:21 AM
i do think how they break the team up effects things. LIke you said, it's shep & rod, then ronon and teyla and it's kinda like SG1 in that when the team breaks up it's normally cam & teal'c, daniel and vala, sam on her own

character development doesn't necessarily need to be a big honkin storyline like Sunday was (ignoring the ultimate outcome, the rest of the episode was nothing more than a series of character interactions, which is what made it very interesting to me). character development can be little moments such as teyla having a moment with liz after a particularly tough decision, or shep screaming like a girl when he runs across a scary milipede :), or other little bits of interaction.

unfortunately, those scenes are usually the first cut to make the plot fit and i think it's been a mistake to do so. If there' s not enough time to make the plot work AND have some character interaction, then maybe tehy need to look into how they're writing the episodes and see if they can tighten things up.

all the characters have suffered from this, weir included.

I'd like to hope that sam's joining the show will be along the line of Jonas in s6. someone to break up the monotony a bit and shake things up and get these characters out of thier boring little ruts and force them into something different and potentially more interesting

ussrelativity
February 27th, 2007, 09:32 AM
I'd like to hope that sam's joining the show will be along the line of Jonas in s6. someone to break up the monotony a bit and shake things up and get these characters out of thier boring little ruts and force them into something different and potentially more interesting

That seems to make some sense for me. It's been a while since I had seen Season 6 in US syndication, but I enjoyed Jonas Quinn in the mix.

I would most certainly prefer that Carter doesn't monopolize McKay's turf, though.

Atlantis1
February 27th, 2007, 10:01 AM
SG-1 didn't have the lose of major characters in the early seasons and this seems to be accepted as okay. Why should we SGA fans like it happening to us? Also, why should we have to have Carter come over to SGA as a possible replacement for one of our main characters. It seems to me like a double standard.
Like obsessed1, I don't like seeing her in the credits. It makes her too tied to SGA.

ussrelativity
February 27th, 2007, 10:16 AM
but she's going to be in the starting credits and that annoys me more than anything!! urgh!! just such a bad idea :(

I have been wondering how the Season 4 credits will play out. I wish they would go back to the format of Season 1 for the credits, with character moments, and the nicer typeface that really fit Atlantis well.

Celcool
February 27th, 2007, 10:25 AM
SG-1 didn't have the lose of major characters in the early seasons and this seems to be accepted as okay. Why should we SGA fans like it happening to us? Also, why should we have to have Carter come over to SGA as a possible replacement for one of our main characters. It seems to me like a double standard.
Like obsessed1, I don't like seeing her in the credits. It makes her too tied to SGA.
Exactly! Why do I feel a large number of fans who are perfectly fine with killing a character for "the heightened sense of danger for the other characters" are SG-1 fans and/or Carter fans? Yeah, because they actually are. I'm sure you'd be fine with all of it if it were Atlantis the show that's been cancelled and the major favorite SG-1 characters would die or get a recurring status for no reason and be replaced by one Atlantis character. Your show would be messed with, hardly to be recognized (oh yeah this did happen, tell me again how did it all end?). You'd be thrilled too. Put yourself in our shoes for a second.

ReganX
February 27th, 2007, 10:37 AM
I think "she comes in her own ship" is to throw people off the scent...but IMHO, I believe anyone taking stock of what's going on in the show and the fact that she was their choice in how to handle the situation "after the decision about Weir was made" have to acknowledge the probability...or at least strong possibility...that this is what she's there to do.

Very possible. Even if Sam arrives in her own ship, it doesn't mean that she'll be returning with it or that she'll be staying on it.

For all we know, Sam coming in "her own ship" could mean that the Asgard will be giving her a lift to Atlantis in the Samantha Carter.

ReganX
February 27th, 2007, 10:40 AM
SG-1 didn't have the lose of major characters in the early seasons and this seems to be accepted as okay. Why should we SGA fans like it happening to us? Also, why should we have to have Carter come over to SGA as a possible replacement for one of our main characters. It seems to me like a double standard.
Like obsessed1, I don't like seeing her in the credits. It makes her too tied to SGA.

She is going to be tied to SGA, for Season Four, at any rate.

AT being in the credits isn't going to lead TPTB to use her character any more or less than they already plan to.

ReganX
February 27th, 2007, 10:43 AM
That seems to make some sense for me. It's been a while since I had seen Season 6 in US syndication, but I enjoyed Jonas Quinn in the mix.

I would most certainly prefer that Carter doesn't monopolize McKay's turf, though.

I don't want them to pigeonhole Sam as a scientist either, she's much more than that.

One reason I'd like to see Sam commanding Atlantis is because she hasn't had much experience commanding a large group. It'll be almost entirely new to her.

ussrelativity
February 27th, 2007, 10:46 AM
I don't want them to pigeonhole Sam as a scientist either, she's much more than that.

One reason I'd like to see Sam commanding Atlantis is because she hasn't had much experience commanding a large group. It'll be almost entirely new to her.

She might even with this, get a promotion to full-bird colonel if she was to command the Atlantis expedition.

ReganX
February 27th, 2007, 10:47 AM
She might even with this, get a promotion to full-bird colonel if she was to command the Atlantis expedition.

That I'd love to see.

Elite Anubis Guard
February 27th, 2007, 10:50 AM
Maybe she takes over the Apollo? I hate Ellis.

vaberella
February 27th, 2007, 11:03 AM
Maybe she takes over the Apollo? I hate Ellis.

Hey...!! I like Ellis, but that would be cool to see her take over a few fleets. But I don't think she'll have the Apollo, isn't that Ellis' ship if he's still alive? She comes with her own.

I'm looking forward to Carter coming. :sam::teyla25:

Skydiver
February 27th, 2007, 12:35 PM
That I'd love to see.
me too.

I would love to see the discipline come to the show. right now, if shep disregards orders, he just charms his way out of it. It'd be nice to see him having to follow orders...and bonus points if he has to follow orders that he doesn't like. that would bring conflict to the show, and it desperately needs conflict.

as to the credits, atlantis' credits are just beautiful. they are real works of art. sg1's???? eh, they used to be cool, but the most recent version with that ugly cgi'd gate is just awful. i FF through them most of the time, especially when the 'actor/character mug' shots really make me cringe. Some of them are truly embarrassing, to me anyway.

ussrelativity
February 27th, 2007, 12:37 PM
me too.

I would love to see the discipline come to the show. right now, if shep disregards orders, he just charms his way out of it. It'd be nice to see him having to follow orders...and bonus points if he has to follow orders that he doesn't like. that would bring conflict to the show, and it desperately needs conflict.

as to the credits, atlantis' credits are just beautiful. they are real works of art. sg1's???? eh, they used to be cool, but the most recent version with that ugly cgi'd gate is just awful. i FF through them most of the time, especially when the 'actor/character mug' shots really make me cringe. Some of them are truly embarrassing, to me anyway.

I prefer the original style credits for Atlantis, with the better typeface and character moments in the credits. Thanks for the green earlier! I just noticed it!

ReganX
February 27th, 2007, 12:58 PM
me too.

I would love to see the discipline come to the show. right now, if shep disregards orders, he just charms his way out of it. It'd be nice to see him having to follow orders...and bonus points if he has to follow orders that he doesn't like. that would bring conflict to the show, and it desperately needs conflict.

Is there a difference in the military between disobeying an order from a civilian and disobeying an order from a superior officer?

If, for example, Sam was in command of Atlantis, Sheppard disobeyed her order and she reported him, would he be dealt with differently than he would have been if it had been Weir he disobeyed?

Skydiver
February 27th, 2007, 01:13 PM
well, one military officer disobeying the orders of another military officer, unless those orders are morally wrong - not quite sure the wording there- is a courtmartialable offense.

Linzi
February 27th, 2007, 01:20 PM
me too.

I would love to see the discipline come to the show. right now, if shep disregards orders, he just charms his way out of it. It'd be nice to see him having to follow orders...and bonus points if he has to follow orders that he doesn't like. that would bring conflict to the show, and it desperately needs conflict.

as to the credits, atlantis' credits are just beautiful. they are real works of art. sg1's???? eh, they used to be cool, but the most recent version with that ugly cgi'd gate is just awful. i FF through them most of the time, especially when the 'actor/character mug' shots really make me cringe. Some of them are truly embarrassing, to me anyway.
I agree. I want conflict too. Conflict = drama = real life, IMO. It also makes life more interesting for our characters.
I don't think the Atlantis credits will change other than some faces disappear and a new one will be added. JM said in his blog they are unlikely to change much, because he likes them. (Sorry if this has been reported elsewhere).

Killdeer
February 27th, 2007, 02:10 PM
However, I really do think it's indicative of how the team simply hasn't gelled as well as SG-1 did - and if it has, it's hard to tell, imo. I feel like I have to do waaaay to much interpretation of looks, lines and gestures to get the feeling that these guys are as close as SG-1 was.

I think this is a matter of perspective, because I see it exactly the other way around. It's one of the reasons I like the show. I haven't gotten a real feeling of closeness from the SG1 team since the early seasons. Don't get me wrong-I think they're all friends, but in my perspective they're friends each with their own lives. I really haven't seen them as a family since the early seasons. Whereas the Atlantis cast I do see as a family, with Elizabeth as the head, John as the guardian, Carson as caretaker, etc....they all have their place. (Not in a shippy sense-I'm a dedicated anti-shipper here). Part of that I think is the setting. All of them living together on the base helps the sense of family, at least in my mind.


I would love to see the discipline come to the show. right now, if shep disregards orders, he just charms his way out of it. It'd be nice to see him having to follow orders...and bonus points if he has to follow orders that he doesn't like. that would bring conflict to the show, and it desperately needs conflict.

Ok, really really not trying to start an argument here. :o I'm just trying to figure out something. I've seen a lot of comments here recently about Shep lacking discipline, disobeying orders etc, and I guess I'm just not understanding it. When has he done all of this? I remember he disobeyed orders in Hot Zone, and the whole team did in Return. But I'm not seeing him as being any more insubordinate than O'Neill was-in fact, I'm not sure he's caught up with Jack yet. I remember O'Neill, along with the team, disobeying orders in Within the Serpent's Grasp, which is comparable to what John did in Return. He also disobeyed orders and ordered Carter to build the bomb in Scorched Earth, he took Merrin off the base in Learning Curve against orders, and was generally insubordinate and got himself in trouble in Chain Reaction with General Bauer. And those are only the ones I can remember off the top of my head. I'm sure there were others if I drag out my DVDs. :) And even when he wasn't directly disobeying orders, he was walking a pretty fine line, in fact was known for it. Like Hammond did with Jack, I agree that Weir usually lets Shep have his way, but still....guess I'm not seeing how Sheppard is all that undisciplined in comparison.

Please please believe me when I say I'm really not trying to start an argument. I'm just really not understanding this point here. Why is Jack's behavior more acceptable than Sheppard's? Is it simply a charisma thing or is there something I'm missing here?

travis
February 27th, 2007, 02:26 PM
I think this is a matter of perspective, because I see it exactly the other way around. It's one of the reasons I like the show. I haven't gotten a real feeling of closeness from the SG1 team since the early seasons. Don't get me wrong-I think they're all friends, but in my perspective they're friends each with their own lives. I really haven't seen them as a family since the early seasons. Whereas the Atlantis cast I do see as a family, with Elizabeth as the head, John as the guardian, Carson as caretaker, etc....they all have their place. (Not in a shippy sense-I'm a dedicated anti-shipper here). Part of that I think is the setting. All of them living together on the base helps the sense of family, at least in my mind.



Ok, really really not trying to start an argument here. :o I'm just trying to figure out something. I've seen a lot of comments here recently about Shep lacking discipline, disobeying orders etc, and I guess I'm just not understanding it. When has he done all of this? I remember he disobeyed orders in Hot Zone, and the whole team did in Return. But I'm not seeing him as being any more insubordinate than O'Neill was-in fact, I'm not sure he's caught up with Jack yet. I remember O'Neill, along with the team, disobeying orders in Within the Serpent's Grasp, which is comparable to what John did in Return. He also disobeyed orders and ordered Carter to build the bomb in Scorched Earth, he took Merrin off the base in Learning Curve against orders, and was generally insubordinate and got himself in trouble in Chain Reaction with General Bauer. And those are only the ones I can remember off the top of my head. I'm sure there were others if I drag out my DVDs. :) And even when he wasn't directly disobeying orders, he was walking a pretty fine line, in fact was known for it. Like Hammond did with Jack, I agree that Weir usually lets Shep have his way, but still....guess I'm not seeing how Sheppard is all that undisciplined in comparison.

Please please believe me when I say I'm really not trying to start an argument. I'm just really not understanding this point here. Why is Jack's behavior more acceptable than Sheppard's? Is it simply a charisma thing or is there something I'm missing here?

A very good point

Ltcolshepjumper
February 27th, 2007, 02:37 PM
I couldn't really see Carter reporting anyone to me. Maybe Mckay, but it would seem odd to me for Carter to go say,"This officer disobeyed a direct order" or whatever. Carter seems, to me, like the type that, if an officer under her disobeyed her, would be more like Dr. Weir and confront that officer rather than immediately report them. Based on her personality.

the dancer of spaz
February 27th, 2007, 03:06 PM
I couldn't really see Carter reporting anyone to me. Maybe Mckay, but it would seem odd to me for Carter to go say,"This officer disobeyed a direct order" or whatever. Carter seems, to me, like the type that, if an officer under her disobeyed her, would be more like Dr. Weir and confront that officer rather than immediately report them. Based on her personality.

I agree. And I doubt the writers would make it that big of a deal for the characters. I think the idea of people being confronted with issues next year sounds intriguing. I like the idea of Sheppard flat out telling Carter if he disagrees with her, or for Carter to directly tell him when she disagrees with him. That kind of conflict doesn't have to take away from the characters, nor does it have to pit fanbases against each other - if fans want to be mature about it, anyway. :p There's the problem.

TPTB have also made it clear that they don't like to make that kind of obvious conflict when bringing in someone new, so I'm not gonna hold my breath.

Night Spring
February 27th, 2007, 03:14 PM
But I'm not seeing [Shep] as being any more insubordinate than O'Neill was-in fact, I'm not sure he's caught up with Jack yet. I remember O'Neill, along with the team, disobeying orders in Within the Serpent's Grasp, which is comparable to what John did in Return. He also disobeyed orders and ordered Carter to build the bomb in Scorched Earth, he took Merrin off the base in Learning Curve against orders, and was generally insubordinate and got himself in trouble in Chain Reaction with General Bauer. And those are only the ones I can remember off the top of my head. I'm sure there were others if I drag out my DVDs. :)
You left out a biggie -- after Jack returned from the first Abydos mission (the one in the original movie), he and his men lied on their mission reports, saying that they'd set off the nuke on Abydos, and everyone there was dead, including Daniel Jackson. We haven't seen Shep deliberately lie on a mission report yet. Hm, come to think of it, in Misbegotten, Woolsey advised Weir to turn in a lying/misleading mission report about why they decided to kill (or at least try to kill) all the wraith-turned-humans. And we are left with the understanding that Weir accepted and acted according to Woolsey's advice.
Um, what was my point? :p
Oh, yeah, so why should Shep be singled out as insubordinate/lacking discipline? Oh, and talking about other characters being insubordinate, Teal'c has disobeyed orders in order to pursue his "Jaffa revenge thing" a few times. So, yeah, characters being insubordinate, par for course in the Stargate universe.

Night Spring
February 27th, 2007, 03:20 PM
TPTB have also made it clear that they don't like to make that kind of obvious conflict when bringing in someone new, so I'm not gonna hold my breath.
I'm not necessarily disagreeing with this assessment, but I also don't recall any statements where TPTB directly addressed this issue. Could you point me toward any such statements? Thanks.

the dancer of spaz
February 27th, 2007, 03:32 PM
I'm not necessarily disagreeing with this assessment, but I also don't recall any statements where TPTB directly addressed this issue. Could you point me toward any such statements? Thanks.

Sorry for the confusion there. :) They never said that... I'm basing my opinion off of the fact that there was virtually zero conflict between Cameron and the rest of SG-1 when he joined last season. Any disagreements lasted for about a page of dialogue - if that - and were rarely revisited or addressed directly between the characters.

Killdeer
February 27th, 2007, 04:07 PM
You left out a biggie -- after Jack returned from the first Abydos mission (the one in the original movie), he and his men lied on their mission reports, saying that they'd set off the nuke on Abydos, and everyone there was dead, including Daniel Jackson. We haven't seen Shep deliberately lie on a mission report yet. Hm, come to think of it, in Misbegotten, Woolsey advised Weir to turn in a lying/misleading mission report about why they decided to kill (or at least try to kill) all the wraith-turned-humans. And we are left with the understanding that Weir accepted and acted according to Woolsey's advice.
Um, what was my point? :p
Oh, yeah, so why should Shep be singled out as insubordinate/lacking discipline? Oh, and talking about other characters being insubordinate, Teal'c has disobeyed orders in order to pursue his "Jaffa revenge thing" a few times. So, yeah, characters being insubordinate, par for course in the Stargate universe.

Oh wow, you're right! <laughing> How could I have missed that one? And he even lied to General Hammond until Hammond called his bluff with the bomb. And as far as lying on mission reports, apparently Mitchell and the whole team joined the club in Talion. Speaking of that "Jaffa revenge thing." <grin>

Thanks for correcting my oversight there. :D

Skydiver
February 27th, 2007, 04:32 PM
Shep is very used to pretty much doing what he wants. He is the military commander, so he does have some latitude, however he does have the habit of being 'hero' first adn officer second. It could be interesting to see him have to directly answer to someone for a change.

Now i don't see sam strutting in, busting balls and dishing out orders. It's not in her personality. SHe is more along the line of 'this is your team, your galaxy, i'll follow your lead'...however i can see the situation happening where they DO have a mission and ultimate goal and sam telling shep what to do and him having to do it even if he may not agree with it.

Night Spring
February 27th, 2007, 04:52 PM
however i can see the situation happening where they DO have a mission and ultimate goal and sam telling shep what to do and him having to do it even if he may not agree with it.
Hmmmm. Do you really see Shep obeying *anyone's* orders if he truly did not agree with them? I mean, Afghanistan, Hot Zone, Return...

So I'd say if Sam and Shep doesn't see eye to eye on something, then either one would persuade the other, or Shep would disobey Sam, and Sam would be left pondering the question of how to handle Shep's insubordination. Which could be interesting, sure.... ;)

Mitchell82
February 27th, 2007, 04:57 PM
Exactly! Why do I feel a large number of fans who are perfectly fine with killing a character for "the heightened sense of danger for the other characters" are SG-1 fans and/or Carter fans? Yeah, because they actually are. I'm sure you'd be fine with all of it if it were Atlantis the show that's been cancelled and the major favorite SG-1 characters would die or get a recurring status for no reason and be replaced by one Atlantis character. Your show would be messed with, hardly to be recognized (oh yeah this did happen, tell me again how did it all end?). You'd be thrilled too. Put yourself in our shoes for a second.

Well nice sterotyping there. I can't speak for eeryone but for me, I was/am a SG-1 fan as it's the reason I tuned in to Atlantis. First off I had nothing against Carson and miss him already. Weir is reduced to recurring which is no biggie for me as while i like her she isnt make or break for me, and yes I like Carter so have no issue with coming on. That said if SGA was canned and a simmilar thing were to happen i can't say what I'd do depending on the situation. On this particaular one I am sticking with it for these reasons, 1. I love SGA and Carson is my only upset so not enough to stop watching. 2. While I see your issues witrh Carter as invading SGA I don't see it that way as she can easily fit in. This show is really only having 3 major changes, loss of Carson, adition of Carter and reduction of Weir. I don't think Carter should replace her but she could and would be the best choice. Hopefully season 4 will be as good as I expect it to be.

Night Spring
February 27th, 2007, 05:05 PM
This show is really only having 3 major changes,
How do three major changes rate an "only"????

You also didn't say how you would feel if SG-1 had been renewed, but Carter was reduced to a recurring character (or killed off to heighten realism *gasp*) and McKay was taking her place. Which I understood to be the point being made in the post you quoted.

Skydiver
February 27th, 2007, 05:12 PM
Hmmmm. Do you really see Shep obeying *anyone's* orders if he truly did not agree with them? I mean, Afghanistan, Hot Zone, Return...

So I'd say if Sam and Shep doesn't see eye to eye on something, then either one would persuade the other, or Shep would disobey Sam, and Sam would be left pondering the question of how to handle Shep's insubordination. Which could be interesting, sure.... ;)
but, if sam is his superior officer, he HAS to follow them. Just like Sam did in Unnatural Selection. IF, and i do mean IF sam is to be the co of the city, she will likely be promoted to full colonel, which means she'll rank shep and he HAS to do what she says

Killdeer
February 27th, 2007, 05:15 PM
Shep is very used to pretty much doing what he wants. He is the military commander, so he does have some latitude, however he does have the habit of being 'hero' first adn officer second. It could be interesting to see him have to directly answer to someone for a change.

I guess I feel like Jack was pretty much the same way. I don't know that anyone ever really made Jack do anything he didn't really want to do. He pretty much did whatever he wanted. And again, as far as being a hero, guess I don't see it, except for the suicide mission in Siege, and again, Hot Zone. Those were both first season eps, though. Can you remind me of examples in later seasons? (again, not trying to argue, just discussing, hopefully as friends :D)


Now i don't see sam strutting in, busting balls and dishing out orders. It's not in her personality. SHe is more along the line of 'this is your team, your galaxy, i'll follow your lead'...however i can see the situation happening where they DO have a mission and ultimate goal and sam telling shep what to do and him having to do it even if he may not agree with it.


Hmmmm. Do you really see Shep obeying *anyone's* orders if he truly did not agree with them? I mean, Afghanistan, Hot Zone, Return...

So I'd say if Sam and Shep doesn't see eye to eye on something, then either one would persuade the other, or Shep would disobey Sam, and Sam would be left pondering the question of how to handle Shep's insubordination. Which could be interesting, sure.... ;)

I have to agree with Night Spring here. If Shep had a serious problem with Sam's orders (and I mean serious here, not talking minor issues) he's not going to follow them. For him to do so would practically be a rewrite of his character as developed to date. After all, Sheppard knows the consequences of disobeying orders, he's experienced them, and has shown himself quite willing to accept those consequences if he felt the orders were wrong. So one could almost say in that aspect he's possibly a stronger character than Jack, because as far as we know, Jack's never been busted, although he's come close a few times. Sheppard, however, has felt the consequences, and still operates according to his convictions. I can't see the writers changing that and it being believable. (Of course this is all just my opinion.)

Mitchell82
February 27th, 2007, 05:21 PM
How do three major changes rate an "only"????

You also didn't say how you would feel if SG-1 had been renewed, but Carter was reduced to a recurring character (or killed off to heighten realism *gasp*) and McKay was taking her place. Which I understood to be the point being made in the post you quoted.

Well as to having just three character changes 1 leaving, 1 recuring, and one addition is better than lets say a whole new cast and crew. Still I see them as minor where some don't fair enough. As to your second statement since I love Carter I'd be upset and depending on how it plays out I might stop watching. Csrter repalced with Mckay I could live with but not likely anyone else so I concede the point you are making which I am asuming is Carson being replaced with Keller. Not having seen much with her as Keller I can't say 100% on that front but as to the Weir situation it doesnt bother me how it turns out. I'd love to keep Weir at the helm but if she is replaced by Carter it won't cause much friction here.

Deevil
February 27th, 2007, 06:40 PM
Just because the writers have been unable to write for certain characters doesn't mean substituting them for new ones and even old ones from sister shows is right.

With that logic, Teyla and Ronon should be the next ones to go. Preferrably sometimes soon.

I didn't imply any such thing. I was actually making a point about the fact that I couldn't see myself missing any of the characters because I don't always see them as characters. They are kind of like robots at times, relogated to their duties, saying "you can go" or "I don't think that's a good idea" or "squeek"... and when they are not saying one of their preprogramed phrases, they are sitting in the background powering up with either a serious expression on their face, or pleasent. There doesn't seem to be much more ground for them to cover.

And honestly. I don't see why having someone from a sister show come on is a bad thing (the word substitution kind of gets me, the inference there is replacement, and since we know nothing about why Sam is going to be on the show I personally would rather not go down that road.)

Madeleine had a point, and one I agree with. I think that because no one died until season 5 in SG-1, for some reason people thought that the same mentality would carry through. This kind of amuses me though, because some of the same people who feel this, want the show to be very distant from SG-1 and the SG-1 ideal. Well, it is. Altantis was never meant to be SG-1 (I will temporarily ignore the fact that many of the storylines on Atlantis are direct rip-offs of those on SG-1), and being half-way across the galaxy without someone who knows the tech that they are working with - it's understandable people will die.

Skydiver pointed out that 24 is good because no character is sacred except for Jack (although I stopped watching because I was sick of Jack, but that's by the by). We as fans are often to protective of our characters at the cost of a storyline. IE: having Daniel stay dead, not make his ghost-like appearances for the year would have been much more of an emotional impact then having him return. Granted, I will say that TPTB don't have a great track record with killing off characters - but even in the most subtle way, having a character die often will open up new possibilities.

None of us want to loose our favourite characters - I remember Ivonava leaving Babylon 5; I remember lementing over the fact that the best character I had ever seen (and still ranks as the best ever) leaving the show. Sure, I knew what happened behind the scenes, but that didn't matter - it was my character and I would miss her. But I watched season 5 anyway. No, it wasn't my favourite season, and not just because of Ivonava not being there, but because of many different reasons... So, yes, I understand where those who have lost characters are coming from. But the sad fact is, these characters are only one part of a prop to tell a story, and sometimes the story dictates they leave... sure, it's not all apparent right away, but it gets there.

Actually, speaking of Bab5, they lost quite a few characters over the years. That didn't mean the story suffered for it. Maybe, just maybe the same is possible here.

Skydiver
February 27th, 2007, 06:45 PM
One reason i felt that B5 rocked - beyond a killer story - was that there WAS a story and there was never the 'oh, so and so's in the credits so they'll be back to 'normal' by the end'

they may have been 'immune' from dying, but they were never immune from being effected. JMS never used the reset switch, and i think the show was better for it. (of course there is also the fact that it was a coherent and continuing story instead of a patch work of arcs and fillers)

prion
February 27th, 2007, 06:48 PM
One reason i felt that B5 rocked - beyond a killer story - was that there WAS a story and there was never the 'oh, so and so's in the credits so they'll be back to 'normal' by the end'

they may have been 'immune' from dying, but they were never immune from being effected. JMS never used the reset switch, and i think the show was better for it. (of course there is also the fact that it was a coherent and continuing story instead of a patch work of arcs and fillers)

Stargate has a habit of hitting the 'reset' switch so often you get whiplash ;) Just wait till you see how they reset in "The Return" part 2 when the city gets blasted to bits, but is hunky dory not a curtain out of place by the end of the episode... ;)

ussrelativity
February 27th, 2007, 06:55 PM
Stargate has a habit of hitting the 'reset' switch so often you get whiplash ;) Just wait till you see how they reset in "The Return" part 2 when the city gets blasted to bits, but is hunky dory not a curtain out of place by the end of the episode... ;)

A lot of good points are made right in there! It seems that the expedition just expects others to clean up after them from that.

Deevil
February 27th, 2007, 06:56 PM
One reason i felt that B5 rocked - beyond a killer story - was that there WAS a story and there was never the 'oh, so and so's in the credits so they'll be back to 'normal' by the end'

they may have been 'immune' from dying, but they were never immune from being effected. JMS never used the reset switch, and i think the show was better for it. (of course there is also the fact that it was a coherent and continuing story instead of a patch work of arcs and fillers)

B5 is the pinicle of what Sci-Fi should be, could be and is meant to be. Actually, that goes for any drama. Shows like Lost, Prison Break, Heroes and Alias when it was on could have learnt a lot from it.

They did often kill off characters in completely unexpected ways. Like Talia and Marcus. The only time I felt B5 came close (and yet was galaxys away) to hitting the reset switch was the beginning of season 5.


The Return" part 2 when the city gets blasted to bits, but is hunky dory not a curtain out of place by the end of the episode...

Well, obviously it wasn't the real gate... It was all a dream. Sheesh. How could you not know that?

Night Spring
February 27th, 2007, 06:58 PM
I didn't imply any such thing. I was actually making a point about the fact that I couldn't see myself missing any of the characters because I don't always see them as characters. They are kind of like robots at times, relogated to their duties, saying "you can go" or "I don't think that's a good idea" or "squeek"... and when they are not saying one of their preprogramed phrases, they are sitting in the background powering up with either a serious expression on their face, or pleasent. There doesn't seem to be much more ground for them to cover.
Yes, but don't you think that if the characters are "robotic" and just standing around in the background, it's because the writers wrote them that way? And that swapping out the existing characters with new ones or importing one from the parent show would just result in a different set of characters, still looking robotic and holding up the background?

Skydiver
February 27th, 2007, 07:04 PM
the biggest 'enemy' of shows like B5, ones with a set and finite story?? it flies in the face of the greed of the network execs that like to bleed every show dry and drive it into the ground

That's the biggest obstacle the recent spate of 'mystery shows' will face. shows like Heroes, Lost, BSG and the like have a finite life span. They are interesting only as long as the mystery lasts (in the case of bsg it's not only the mystery but the journey to find earth...how long can they conceivably look?). And if the mystery is dragged out too long, people get bored and change the channel.

but network execs dont' precisely like shows with a set lifetime...tehy want to drag them out as long as they can and make as much money as they can before the diminishing returns necessitates the show being canned.

The one thing that Atlantis really lacks is a continuing storyline. we have bits here and there but we also jump from one story to another, some arcs are built up and then abandoned, o thers seem to pop out of the blue (abandoned arcs, the wraith, Ford's lost boys, out of the blue, Peggy Replicators)

Killdeer
February 27th, 2007, 07:18 PM
I didn't imply any such thing. I was actually making a point about the fact that I couldn't see myself missing any of the characters because I don't always see them as characters. They are kind of like robots at times, relogated to their duties, saying "you can go" or "I don't think that's a good idea" or "squeek"... and when they are not saying one of their preprogramed phrases, they are sitting in the background powering up with either a serious expression on their face, or pleasent. There doesn't seem to be much more ground for them to cover.

I don't know - I think one person's robot is another person's beloved character. I've thought that some SG1 characters were rather robotic at times, but yet I know that they are greatly loved by many on this board. That's not intended as an attack on anyone, I'm just trying to illustrate a point. And really maybe I should be keeping my mouth shut <cringing> . I'm in a talkative mood tonight, but nothing is meant confrontationally, just trying to futher discussion.


But the sad fact is, these characters are only one part of a prop to tell a story, and sometimes the story dictates they leave... sure, it's not all apparent right away, but it gets there.

I think there's two perspectives to storytelling. One is, as you stated, that the characters serve the plot, or the story. The other is that the story serves the characters. It depends on the writer. There's a somewhat wellknown quote that I've read addressing this that I've been trying to find, but with no luck. (Apparently it isn't that well known :D) If I find it, maybe I'll post it, if the thread hasn't moved on by then.


B5 is the pinicle of what Sci-Fi should be, could be and is meant to be.

<grin> I'd heard this about B5 several times and from several places. I finally picked up a Season 1 set from the library to see what I was missing. Wow. I finally decided it must be something like art or literature, and I just wasn't smart enough to get it, because I just couldn't get into it. I couldn't figure out what was going on, I couldn't connect with the characters, and I couldn't keep track of the plot. I finally gave up. So... Here's to establishing my credibility as a shallow low-brow viewer. :D

Killdeer
February 27th, 2007, 07:20 PM
The one thing that Atlantis really lacks is a continuing storyline. we have bits here and there but we also jump from one story to another, some arcs are built up and then abandoned, o thers seem to pop out of the blue (abandoned arcs, the wraith, Ford's lost boys, out of the blue, Peggy Replicators)

Now that I can 100% wholeheartedly agree with. :D

Deevil
February 27th, 2007, 07:44 PM
Yes, but don't you think that if the characters are "robotic" and just standing around in the background, it's because the writers wrote them that way? And that swapping out the existing characters with new ones or importing one from the parent show would just result in a different set of characters, still looking robotic and holding up the background?

Not necessarily true. Sometimes characters, no matter how good they are, don't belong in a certain situation, or just can't interact well with other characters. Like people, characters have their own nature which can be recalcitrent... So yes, swapping out characters could work.

Ford, didn't really fit into Atlantis - I know some people loved his character, but he never really fit. Could it be because of the writing? Sure, that could play a part. Could it be because of the acting? Also, plays a part. Could it be because they were trying to fit a square peg in a round hole? I think this was the first in the problems with that character...

So yes, 'swapping out' characters could make a difference, because for whatever reason a character isn't inherently working - you sometimes have to discard them. Sucky, but true.


shows like Heroes, Lost, BSG and the like have a finite life span. They are interesting only as long as the mystery lasts (in the case of bsg it's not only the mystery but the journey to find earth...how long can they conceivably look?). And if the mystery is dragged out too long, people get bored and change the channel.

Very very true. Lost lost me simply because it wasn't going anywhere, and Heroes I am trying to connect with but ma getting nowhere. You're right. It does fly in the face of greed - but when done well, they are some of the best.


The one thing that Atlantis really lacks is a continuing storyline. we have bits here and there but we also jump from one story to another, some arcs are built up and then abandoned, o thers seem to pop out of the blue (abandoned arcs, the wraith, Ford's lost boys, out of the blue, Peggy Replicators)

Exactly. I can't help but wonder if that is part of the reason I cannot connect with the show as much as I would like too..

Deevil
February 27th, 2007, 07:51 PM
I don't know - I think one person's robot is another person's beloved character. I've thought that some SG1 characters were rather robotic at times, but yet I know that they are greatly loved by many on this board. That's not intended as an attack on anyone, I'm just trying to illustrate a point. And really maybe I should be keeping my mouth shut <cringing> . I'm in a talkative mood tonight, but nothing is meant confrontationally, just trying to futher discussion.

Where's the offense? You are stating what you see, and that's cool. Obviously, yes, I am speaking for what I see, and I freely acknowledge some people love the characters (and as odd as it seems, I do actually like/love the characters as well), but it's hard to see them, for me, as more then just 2 dimesional programs sometimes. They're kind of like the Commodore 64 of characters to me - and I loved my C64.


I think there's two perspectives to storytelling. One is, as you stated, that the characters serve the plot, or the story. The other is that the story serves the characters. It depends on the writer.

I think they should equally serve each other. The story should be benifted by the characters and the characters by the story. But sometimes a character has to go in order to create enough conflict (conflict = heart of drama) in both character and story. My point is, a character is not above story.

Add to that, essentially Atlantis is plot driven rather then character driven, so I am likely to focus on plot more then character.


<grin> I'd heard this about B5 several times and from several places. I finally picked up a Season 1 set from the library to see what I was missing. Wow. I finally decided it must be something like art or literature, and I just wasn't smart enough to get it, because I just couldn't get into it. I couldn't figure out what was going on, I couldn't connect with the characters, and I couldn't keep track of the plot. I finally gave up. So... Here's to establishing my credibility as a shallow low-brow viewer. :D

:D. Season 1 isn't the best to judge it by. It's the set up season, it's the building blocks... Season 2 things really start happening and it gets very very exciting. If you want to take my recommendation, try and stick through it - I do think it may be worth your time.

Killdeer
February 27th, 2007, 07:59 PM
:D. Season 1 isn't the best to judge it by. It's the set up season, it's the building blocks... Season 2 things really start happening and it gets very very exciting. If you want to take my recommendation, try and stick through it - I do think it may be worth your time.

Maybe I will. Thanks. :) I just thought it meant that I wasn't a true sci-fi fan. <grin>

Night Spring
February 27th, 2007, 08:02 PM
Ford, didn't really fit into Atlantis - I know some people loved his character, but he never really fit. Could it be because of the writing? Sure, that could play a part. Could it be because of the acting? Also, plays a part. Could it be because they were trying to fit a square peg in a round hole? I think this was the first in the problems with that character...

So yes, 'swapping out' characters could make a difference, because for whatever reason a character isn't inherently working - you sometimes have to discard them. Sucky, but true.
Well, one out of five characters, I'll give them that. But if three out of six characters that you started out with didn't work out? I'd call that sucky planning. :D


Add to that, essentially Atlantis is plot driven rather then character driven, so I am likely to focus on plot more then character.
Uh, what plot? :D
Seriously, the only reason I'm watching Atlantis is for McKay and Sheppard, and to a lesser extent Carson, Weir, Ronon, Lorne, Zelenka... So, I just don't see Atlantis as plot-driven, at all.

Deevil
February 27th, 2007, 08:02 PM
Maybe I will. Thanks. :) I just thought it meant that I wasn't a true sci-fi fan. <grin>

When I can find you a definition of a true Sci-Fi fan I might set-up a test. Since I don't think there is one, you're safe :D.

Deevil
February 27th, 2007, 08:07 PM
Well, one out of five characters, I'll give them that. But if three out of six characters that you started out with didn't work out? I'd call that sucky planning. :D

I think Weir is kind of out of place now. In the first season it wasn't so militarised. With the Military becoming a larger feature, she just doesn't fit. Sometimes story and character don't fit :).

As for Carson.. well, they just did that. I think he fit fine. Sometimes even the best characters get to leave.


Uh, what plot? :D
Seriously, the only reason I'm watching Atlantis is for McKay and Sheppard, and to a lesser extent Carson, Weir, Ronon, Lorne, Zelenka... So, I just don't see Atlantis as plot-driven, at all.

Sure it is. Something happens in the plot, the character reacts. The character is reactionary, rather then 'acting'. Therefore the plot is driving their actions. But, I do agree, not much of a plot - much of the problems me thinks :).

And yeah, I watch much for the same reasons you do.

Uber
February 27th, 2007, 08:12 PM
When I can find you a definition of a true Sci-Fi fan I might set-up a test. Since I don't think there is one, you're safe :D.Oh it's easy...at least as far as Stargate is concerned.

If you think SG-1 was the best during Seasons 1-8 and didn't enjoy 9 and/or 10, you are not a "true" Stargate fan.

If you think Seasons 9 and 10 rocked but didn't care for previous seasons all that much, you are not a "true" Stargate fan.

If you think the Stargate universe meshes together so that both shows should interact regularly, you are not a "true" Stargate fan.

If you think the shows should remain completely separate, you are not a "true" Stargate fan.

If you like Weir but either want or are okay with Carter taking her place, you are not a "true" Stargate fan.

If you dislike Carter and/or Weir, you are not a "true" Stargate fan.

If you're saddened but okay with Beckett being killed off, you are not a "true" Stargate fan.

If you don't support the series somehow magically being renewed for a Season 11, you are not a "true" Stargate fan.

If you complain about the direction of either show, you are not a "true" Stargate fan.

:sam43:

Killdeer
February 27th, 2007, 08:18 PM
Uh, what plot? :D
Seriously, the only reason I'm watching Atlantis is for McKay and Sheppard, and to a lesser extent Carson, Weir, Ronon, Lorne, Zelenka... So, I just don't see Atlantis as plot-driven, at all.



Sure it is. Something happens in the plot, the character reacts. The character is reactionary, rather then 'acting'. Therefore the plot is driving their actions. But, I do agree, not much of a plot - much of the problems me thinks :).

And yeah, I watch much for the same reasons you do.

Aghh. I'm compulsingly posting tonight. Somebody stop me!!! :D Seriously, I was going to post saying almost the same thing Night Spring did, only she said it better. My first reaction was that Atlantis has to be character driven because they don't have a plot. Or much of one. And I certainly watch because of the characters!! But then I thought about the writers' tendancy (on either show really)to throw away existing character development in pursuit of a particular episode plot and wasn't so sure of my answer. :(

So I guess I'm saying I agree with you both <confused look>. See what I mean about compulsive posting? :o


When I can find you a definition of a true Sci-Fi fan I might set-up a test. Since I don't think there is one, you're safe :D.

Hmmm. A test might be interesting. What would be on it I wonder? Might be fun to discuss. But probably outside the scope of this thread. :D Running away now....

Deevil
February 27th, 2007, 08:19 PM
:jack_new_anime07:

Can I be a false Stargate fan? Does it require much plastic surgery, or is the Joan Rivers look out for falsness this season?

Teach me all you know Oooober!

Night Spring
February 27th, 2007, 08:21 PM
Sure it is. Something happens in the plot, the character reacts. The character is reactionary, rather then 'acting'. Therefore the plot is driving their actions. But, I do agree, not much of a plot - much of the problems me thinks :).
Yes, exactly! I'd feel much better about the cast changes, including the supposedly more "military" direction for the show, if I had the sense that TPTB really had a definite "plot" -- or actually, more of a larger story, if you will, that they are trying to tell, both through the characters *and* the plot. But it often seems like they are just running on a money-making treadmill, trying to milk the golden goose for the last drop of gold they can squeeze out of it... And I think I've mixed enough metaphors there, so I'll stop! :D


And yeah, I watch much for the same reasons you do.
:)

Killdeer
February 27th, 2007, 08:32 PM
To ÜberSG-1Fan:

You know that confusion I was mentioning? Not helping!!!!! :D

(Actually I thought your list was pretty funny :) )

Falcon Horus
February 28th, 2007, 03:58 AM
Oh it's easy...at least as far as Stargate is concerned.

If you think SG-1 was the best during Seasons 1-8 and didn't enjoy 9 and/or 10, you are not a "true" Stargate fan.

If you think Seasons 9 and 10 rocked but didn't care for previous seasons all that much, you are not a "true" Stargate fan.

If you think the Stargate universe meshes together so that both shows should interact regularly, you are not a "true" Stargate fan.

If you think the shows should remain completely separate, you are not a "true" Stargate fan.

If you like Weir but either want or are okay with Carter taking her place, you are not a "true" Stargate fan.

If you dislike Carter and/or Weir, you are not a "true" Stargate fan.

If you're saddened but okay with Beckett being killed off, you are not a "true" Stargate fan.

If you don't support the series somehow magically being renewed for a Season 11, you are not a "true" Stargate fan.

If you complain about the direction of either show, you are not a "true" Stargate fan.

:sam43:

Mmmm.... A true Stargate-fan is indeed a rare phenomena. When one has been located, he/she might end up in a lab to be studied.

:mckayanime09: