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View Full Version : Think things will return to 'normal' by S5? (S3 and S4 Spoilers)



Descent
January 22nd, 2007, 01:20 PM
Now, mind you that this is just speculation here, but I personally think the reason behind Carson's departure and Weir's reduced role are caused by Carter coming onto Atlantis.

But since they left Carson's "death" so ambiguous, do you guys think TPTB plan to bring everything back to uh..."normal" after AT's contract is up?

Will Season 5 mark the return of the 'true' Atlantis?

:sheppard: :ronan: :mckay: :weir: :beckett: :teyla:

Thoughts? Added Speculation?

leelakin
January 22nd, 2007, 01:22 PM
I actually didn't think that his death was very ambiguous. :(

smushybird
January 22nd, 2007, 01:26 PM
Now, mind you that this is just speculation here, but I personally think the reason behind Carson's departure and Weir's reduced role are caused by Carter coming onto Atlantis.

But since they left Carson's "death" so ambiguous, do you guys think TPTB plan to bring everything back to uh..."normal" after AT's contract is up?

Will Season 5 mark the return of the 'true' Atlantis?

:sheppard: :ronan: :mckay: :weir: :beckett: :teyla:

Thoughts? Added Speculation?

I think the addition of Carter will bring SG-1 fans who don't watch Atlantis over to watch it and Season 4 will do so well with the addition of Carter, they'll sign Tapping on for another season. I think most if not all of the people currently upset about the changes for Season 4 will end up watching Season 4 anyway, just out of curiosity alone, so the ratings should be okay. If Carter is replacing Weir as Atlantis' Hammond, she probably won't have a lot of screen time, but that's how it should be. I prefer most of the screen time going to Sheppard, McKay, Teyla, and Ronon.

Fifer
January 22nd, 2007, 01:35 PM
I actually didn't think that his death was very ambiguous. :(

I have to agree. There was certainly nothing "ambiguous" about the death of Dr. Beckett. That one is an open and shut case. He's gone.

theonebluegecko
January 22nd, 2007, 02:11 PM
Now, mind you that this is just speculation here, but I personally think the reason behind Carson's departure and Weir's reduced role are caused by Carter coming onto Atlantis.


I disagree. Carson's state of being or not being in Atlantis really would never be directly influenced by Carter. He was written out because they wanted to for whatever reason. It was a well done episode that had nothing to do with Carter coming.

As for Weir, maybe slightly, but from the spoilers from the season finale it sound more like he has been made reoccurring because that is what the plot needs. She and Carter are not parallel characters, they would not reduce the part of one character for another.

Caldwell's 2IC
January 22nd, 2007, 02:36 PM
If TPTB keep changing things like they have been doing lately, I'd doubt we'll have a season 5 at all...

RepliHawk
January 22nd, 2007, 02:40 PM
If TPTB

I keep seeing the word TPTB on alot of threads but I dont know what that word means.Can somebody tell me please?

Caldwell's 2IC
January 22nd, 2007, 02:46 PM
I keep seeing the word TPTB on alot of threads but I dont know what that word means.Can somebody tell me please?

TPTB means " The Powers that Be" :D

J_B
January 22nd, 2007, 03:14 PM
I keep seeing the word TPTB on alot of threads but I dont know what that word means.Can somebody tell me please?

"The Powers That Be"

When people say tyhat, they are referring to those behind the scenes that make the show or have influences that are input into how the shows are made. Be that the writers, producers etc.

Descent
January 22nd, 2007, 06:18 PM
I disagree. Carson's state of being or not being in Atlantis really would never be directly influenced by Carter. He was written out because they wanted to for whatever reason.

I meant budget wise, not character wise.

theonebluegecko
January 22nd, 2007, 08:13 PM
I meant budget wise, not character wise.

I do not think that Tapping's pay is that high. From what has been posted before her pay as a recurring character will be about the same as that of any other recurring character, and thus is not a major budget concern. As Beckett and Weir were not completely disliked characters I am sure that they were not written off for her.

travis
January 23rd, 2007, 03:21 AM
LOL if it makes it to season 5. But if it does I'm sure we'll adapt to the changes by then with a few loss and gains.

FallenAngelII
January 23rd, 2007, 03:26 AM
Now, mind you that this is just speculation here, but I personally think the reason behind Carson's departure and Weir's reduced role are caused by Carter coming onto Atlantis.

But since they left Carson's "death" so ambiguous, do you guys think TPTB plan to bring everything back to uh..."normal" after AT's contract is up?

Will Season 5 mark the return of the 'true' Atlantis?

:sheppard: :ronan: :mckay: :weir: :beckett: :teyla:

Thoughts? Added Speculation?
What's so ambiguous about Carson's death? He died. There's no ambiguity about the fact that he's dead. They talked about there being a body and that they were bringing it back (which they did).

When you Ascend, there is no body! All that is you (except maybe dead skin cells stuck to your clothes) becomes energy and you go all squiddy. So unless Carson's body consists of his charred clothes, he's dead.

The conversation with Rodney was most likely a dream sequence or Rodney's just talking to himself imagining Carson standing beside him or possibly, he's gone slightly bananas.

But Carson faded out after the conversation, something Ascended Beings don't do. They either disappear when we turn our backs or they glow out.

So there's no ambuity. He's dead, Jim.

deadman
June 26th, 2007, 05:08 PM
How do you ascended beings can't fade out if they really wanted to?

DragonEagle
June 26th, 2007, 05:13 PM
So there's no ambuity. He's dead, Jim.

But JM has confirmed that he has a part at the end of season 4. He has also confirmed that it will not be alternate universe/dream.

If there is a s5, if being the operative word here, I hope it all goes back, though I don't think it likely. But since I am a fan of Carson and Weir and not so happy about Carter going over. I will dare to dream, lol.

ussrelativity
June 26th, 2007, 05:16 PM
My fanfic efforts can only go so far. As more canon details about the upcoming season are revealed, we can make better predictions.

Mitchell82
June 26th, 2007, 05:25 PM
I disagree. Carson's state of being or not being in Atlantis really would never be directly influenced by Carter. He was written out because they wanted to for whatever reason. It was a well done episode that had nothing to do with Carter coming.

As for Weir, maybe slightly, but from the spoilers from the season finale it sound more like he has been made reoccurring because that is what the plot needs. She and Carter are not parallel characters, they would not reduce the part of one character for another.

Agreed. Also if season 4 goes well and season 5 is greenlit, which will greatly depend on season 3's ratings and possibly some of the first eps of season 4, I see AT staying on, which personally I won't mind.

scifi_lemon
June 26th, 2007, 05:42 PM
Agreed. Also if season 4 goes well and season 5 is greenlit, which will greatly depend on season 3's ratings and possibly some of the first eps of season 4, I see AT staying on, which personally I won't mind.

ITA.

prion
June 26th, 2007, 06:01 PM
I do not think that Tapping's pay is that high. From what has been posted before her pay as a recurring character will be about the same as that of any other recurring character, and thus is not a major budget concern. As Beckett and Weir were not completely disliked characters I am sure that they were not written off for her.

I'm sure Tapping's pay will remain the same; she's not a recurring character. She'll be in the main credits as a regular according to JM.


I have to agree. There was certainly nothing "ambiguous" about the death of Dr. Beckett. That one is an open and shut case. He's gone.

Snort, yup, he's dead, Jim. ;) It will be interesting to see what kind of plot device they use to bring him back for those episodes.


I think the addition of Carter will bring SG-1 fans who don't watch Atlantis over to watch it and Season 4 will do so well with the addition of Carter, they'll sign Tapping on for another season. I think most if not all of the people currently upset about the changes for Season 4 will end up watching Season 4 anyway, just out of curiosity alone, so the ratings should be okay. If Carter is replacing Weir as Atlantis' Hammond, she probably won't have a lot of screen time, but that's how it should be. I prefer most of the screen time going to Sheppard, McKay, Teyla, and Ronon.

Yup, TPTB have stated that is one of the reasons to have an SG1 chracter on the show - to bring over those fans who either haven't watched it becuase they haven't bothered, or refused to watch it.

As to the topic, will things return to normal by season 5, it's now hard to tell what normal is because TPTB keep making changes for some reason or another.

vaberella
June 26th, 2007, 06:07 PM
Now, mind you that this is just speculation here, but I personally think the reason behind Carson's departure and Weir's reduced role are caused by Carter coming onto Atlantis.
It may be your speculation but it is incorrect due to the answer JM has given in his blog and interviews countless times. Carter's inception was made after the decisions on the fate on the afore mentioned characters. As a matter of fact he went on to say that Carter was up against two other choices to come to Atlantis and take over. So, this wasn't some sort of pre-mediated idea on "bringing" SG1 fans to Atlantis.

They sat down and reviewed their options after deciding that both Weir and Carson were probably not up to scrap, and we have the choices that have been made.


But since they left Carson's "death" so ambiguous, do you guys think TPTB plan to bring everything back to uh..."normal" after AT's contract is up?
No way. Which I explained below in response to another poster. I don't find the death ambiguous as other's have mentioned, although I do notice the point of view because of Carson's subsequent two-parter in S4. Unfortunately we have no idea in what form he will be returning, unless he's a ghost---which hasn't been confirmed as happening or not.


Will Season 5 mark the return of the 'true' Atlantis?

Thoughts? Added Speculation?

When you say 'true' you're referring to Weir and Carson's positions back on Atlantis? I don't think so. If they are it would be a waste of time and it would be annoying for me. When people make a move you stick with it and continue through. At this point TPTB made a commitment to their decisions and they should stick with them. I have my problems with Carson's story in paticular because I feel it's major backpedaling. But at taking out Weir and Carson they can't backpedal in S5 because they "re-established" themselves in S4.


Agreed. Also if season 4 goes well and season 5 is greenlit, which will greatly depend on season 3's ratings and possibly some of the first eps of season 4, I see AT staying on, which personally I won't mind.

I agree with this. AT would be here for the long term if S4 will be the success that I think it will be. I don't think there's really a chance that any character who was set to "recurring" or elminated will be back on a proper "recurring" status--ie Lorne, Zelenka. Maybe one or two storylines, if that, but just vanish to the trailer park of axed characters. If the show let's say cancels beyond S5, then I see a chance of some of the characters left open coming back to add some closure to their open storylines.

Edited to Add:
<snip>Yup, TPTB have stated that is one of the reasons to have an SG1 chracter on the show - to bring over those fans who either haven't watched it becuase they haven't bothered, or refused to watch it. <snip>

Can you give me a link and a quote as to where and when TPTB said this?

PG15
June 26th, 2007, 06:12 PM
I sure hope things don't go back to "normal"; I thought most fans hated the reset button?

SG13-NightOps
June 26th, 2007, 06:27 PM
I sure hope things don't go back to "normal"; I thought most fans hated the reset button?

It wont let me green you :mckay:

What is "normal" anyway? One mans Normal is another mans substandard.

or womans.

Briangate78
June 26th, 2007, 06:34 PM
LOL if it makes it to season 5. But if it does I'm sure we'll adapt to the changes by then with a few loss and gains.

After seeing the ratings for the last 3 eps of season 3, I think we have a very good shot for a Season 5! :cool:

Season finale of SGA brought in 2,000,000+ viewers!

BTW, if Season 5 does happen, I think there is hope for at least a Weir return. I don't see Tapping signing on for another season, but who knows. If the show stays the way its staying with the amazing stories and plot, I'll just want to see a season 5 and more...

prion
June 26th, 2007, 06:34 PM
Edited to Add:

Can you give me a link and a quote as to where and when TPTB said this?

RCC said this in an MGM video interview which was posted to the MGM site in January, then yanked a week or so later - they posted too soon!

"Amanda Tapping will be joining the cast of Stargate Atlantis for 14 episodes for season 4.” There’s going to be fans of Atlantis who feel like they don’t want to see SG1 people coming over, they feel like Atlantis is their own thing now and they’ve embraced that thing… but you know…(BIG Pause) Amanda and Carter are such a likeable character, she’s such a good actress, I don’t see how anybody can have a problem with it once they see it. It’s a natural fit for the show and for the franchise to keep a little bit of SG1 going in Atlantis.” … “Hopefully for us we’ll get people who love Carter and love SG1 watching Atlantis where they might not have before and I think the people who really love Atlantis for what it is, are not going to see that spoiled or tarnished in anyway.”


I sure hope things don't go back to "normal"; I thought most fans hated the reset button?

The 'reset' button gets used an awfull lot. I mean, "Unending" on SG1 was the biggest one ever! Of course, normal for some of us might mean bringing Weir back to command :)

PG15
June 26th, 2007, 06:37 PM
After seeing the ratings for the last 3 eps of season 3, I think we have a very good shot for a Season 5! :cool:

Season finale of SGA brought in 2,000,000+ viewers!



Actually, that's SG1. SGA got almost 2 million viewers. Still good though.

Briangate78
June 26th, 2007, 06:44 PM
Actually, that's SG1. SGA got almost 2 million viewers. Still good though.

Ahh ok my bad, but yeah still really good. :)

scifi_lemon
June 26th, 2007, 07:09 PM
Actually, that's SG1. SGA got almost 2 million viewers. Still good though.

That's great! There may be hope for an S5 yet!

And congrats PG15 on getting the flocking! You will share that spoiler with us...right? ;)

vaberella
June 26th, 2007, 07:22 PM
RCC said this in an MGM video interview which was posted to the MGM site in January, then yanked a week or so later - they posted too soon!

"Amanda Tapping will be joining the cast of Stargate Atlantis for 14 episodes for season 4.” There’s going to be fans of Atlantis who feel like they don’t want to see SG1 people coming over, they feel like Atlantis is their own thing now and they’ve embraced that thing… but you know…(BIG Pause) Amanda and Carter are such a likeable character, she’s such a good actress, I don’t see how anybody can have a problem with it once they see it. It’s a natural fit for the show and for the franchise to keep a little bit of SG1 going in Atlantis.” … “Hopefully for us we’ll get people who love Carter and love SG1 watching Atlantis where they might not have before and I think the people who really love Atlantis for what it is, are not going to see that spoiled or tarnished in anyway.”<snip>

Thanks Prion for posting the quote for me. Much appreciated!


Actually, that's SG1. SGA got almost 2 million viewers. Still good though.

:cool: What's the actual Neilson rating?

PG15
June 26th, 2007, 07:26 PM
And congrats PG15 on getting the flocking! You will share that spoiler with us...right? ;)

It'll depend on how much more chaotic it will make of fandom. ;)






:cool: What's the actual Neilson rating?

We'll all know less than 2 weeks from now, from SciFi Wire. :)

parisindy
June 26th, 2007, 07:28 PM
i don't know if things will ever return to normal, i don't even think we'll see a season 5 but if weir and carson were back and sam gone, things truly back to normal...then i would watch it.

Briangate78
June 26th, 2007, 07:38 PM
It'll depend on how much more chaotic it will make of fandom. ;)



We'll all know less than 2 weeks from now, from SciFi Wire. :)


Thanks Prion for posting the quote for me. Much appreciated!



:cool: What's the actual Neilson rating?

It could round out to like a 1.6 for SGA and like a 1.8 for SG-1.


i don't know if things will ever return to normal, i don't even think we'll see a season 5 but if weir and carson were back and sam gone, things truly back to normal...then i would watch it.

Chances for a season 5 just went up! :)

parisindy
June 26th, 2007, 07:39 PM
Chances for a season 5 just went up! :)

i'm not watching four though ;)
i can't even bring myself to watch the commercials
but if things went back to normal i would watch 5

Briangate78
June 26th, 2007, 07:44 PM
i'm not watching four though ;)
i can't even bring my self to watch the commercials

Chances are at least one of these characters could return for a bigger role if we do get a 5th season.

I understand you won't be watching, you have ever right not to want to watch the show. But don't count these characters out yet.

parisindy
June 26th, 2007, 07:50 PM
count out what characters i'm sorry i'm confused...do you mean weir and carson?

even if they make their said cameos i still have another issue. all three need to fall in to place for me to enjoy the show again

DragonEagle
June 26th, 2007, 07:50 PM
Unfortunately, it was TPTB's decision to write Weir out before they decided on bringing in AT to replace her. They considered other replacements but settled on Carter, which means that even if AT isn't interested in signing on for s5, that doesn't necessarily mean they will just fall back on Weir, we may just end up with a new replacement.

Which really depresses me because I would LOVE to see them go back to Carson and Weir (what some of us may consider "normal" ;))

Briangate78
June 26th, 2007, 07:53 PM
count out what characters i'm sorry i'm confused...do you mean weir and carson?

even if they make their said cameos i still have another issue. all three need to fall in to place for me to enjoy the show again

Yeah, I'm sorry I was talking about Carson and Weir. When I mean return, I would hope for at least recurring, like a Zalenka, or Carson in Season one. Don't want to see like a Season 9 SG-1 O'neill appearances. :p

parisindy
June 26th, 2007, 07:55 PM
Yeah, I'm sorry I was talking about Carson and Weir. When I mean return, I would hope for at least recurring, like a Zalenka, or Carson in Season one. Don't want to see like a Season 9 SG-1 O'neill appearances. :p


if that happened and Sam left i would totally be in :)

edited to add...its really nice to have a civil conversation with someone in a general thread ...
thank you for that

Briangate78
June 26th, 2007, 08:03 PM
if that happened and Sam left i would totally be in :)

edited to add...its really nice to have a civil conversation with someone in a general thread ...
thank you for that

LOL, no problem I appreciate the conversation also, so thanks in return. I just want to keep hope alive, and maybe sometimes I am too optomistic. Like fans wanted to shoot me when I kept saying RDA will return for more eps in S10 of SG-1. lol. :p

Civil is important to me, I am a mod on a major Sci-fi forum. So I try to set an example.

Anyway, I really do, if S5 happens, we get at least one character back for a decent role, two would be even better. :)

I guess we need to get to a season 5 first. :p

parisindy
June 26th, 2007, 08:16 PM
LOL, no problem I appreciate the conversation also, so thanks in return. I just want to keep hope alive, and maybe sometimes I am too optomistic. Like fans wanted to shoot me when I kept saying RDA will return for more eps in S10 of SG-1. lol. :p

i quite watching sg-1 erm around season 5 cause it quit playing here, i do like ben and claudia cause i am a scaper so maybe one day i'll watch it again


Civil is important to me, I am a mod on a major Sci-fi forum. So I try to set an example.

Anyway, I really do, if S5 happens, we get at least one character back for a decent role, two would be even better. :)

I guess we need to get to a season 5 first. :p

well i am glad your are hopeful :) i'm not but thats cool to. But I would love for things to go back they way they were, the thought makes me happy :)

scifi_lemon
June 26th, 2007, 08:51 PM
I dunno, personally I didn't like Weir that much and I don't mind Carter coming over, but I wouldn't be against Weir and Carson coming back in S5.

I'm remaining cautiously optimistic about S4 however. It looks like it might be cool but you never know.

parisindy
June 26th, 2007, 08:57 PM
Unfortunately, it was TPTB's decision to write Weir out before they decided on bringing in AT to replace her. They considered other replacements but settled on Carter, which means that even if AT isn't interested in signing on for s5, that doesn't necessarily mean they will just fall back on Weir, we may just end up with a new replacement.

Which really depresses me because I would LOVE to see them go back to Carson and Weir (what some of us may consider "normal" ;))

yup i know all that and agree, but if the impossible happened and it did go back to normal i would watch it, cause i loved Atlantis seasons 1-3 (except for Sunday and first strike of course ;) )

Mitchell82
June 26th, 2007, 08:57 PM
I agree with this. AT would be here for the long term if S4 will be the success that I think it will be. I don't think there's really a chance that any character who was set to "recurring" or elminated will be back on a proper "recurring" status--ie Lorne, Zelenka. Maybe one or two storylines, if that, but just vanish to the trailer park of axed characters. If the show let's say cancels beyond S5, then I see a chance of some of the characters left open coming back to add some closure to their open storylines.


I sure hope so. It would suck to see her get settled in then leave.

scifi_lemon
June 26th, 2007, 09:15 PM
I sure hope so. It would suck to see her get settled in then leave.

Ditto.

DragonEagle
June 26th, 2007, 10:15 PM
yup i know all that and agree, but if the impossible happened and it did go back to normal i would watch it, cause i loved Atlantis seasons 1-3 (except for Sunday and first strike of course ;) )

As I said before, I will dare to dream:). And I think if the fan input has any effect, it is more likely they will bring Carson back than they will Weir. A good majority of fans were upset to see Carson go, whereas Weir's character is kind of a split thing. It seems that about half of fans hate her and half of the fans like her. Of course that's only if the fan base has any effect, and I have no idea whether it will or not. But who knows? Anything's possible I suppose. *crosses fingers* :weir::beckett:

Exiled Master
June 26th, 2007, 10:19 PM
Now, mind you that this is just speculation here, but I personally think the reason behind Carson's departure and Weir's reduced role are caused by Carter coming onto Atlantis.

But since they left Carson's "death" so ambiguous, do you guys think TPTB plan to bring everything back to uh..."normal" after AT's contract is up?

Will Season 5 mark the return of the 'true' Atlantis?

:sheppard: :ronan: :mckay: :weir: :beckett: :teyla:

Thoughts? Added Speculation?

An intriguing possibility.
Though one might also make the argument for the return of :ford:. (I'm not, by the way. :ronan: is a far funnier character.)

jenks
June 26th, 2007, 10:46 PM
Now, mind you that this is just speculation here, but I personally think the reason behind Carson's departure and Weir's reduced role are caused by Carter coming onto Atlantis.

Carson had been written out and Weir's fate had been planned before the new leader of Atlantis had been cast.


But since they left Carson's "death" so ambiguous, do you guys think TPTB plan to bring everything back to uh..."normal" after AT's contract is up?

I'm not sure what you mean by normal, but if you mean Weir back as leader, I sure as hell hope not.


Will Season 5 mark the return of the 'true' Atlantis?

:sheppard: :ronan: :mckay: :weir: :beckett: :teyla:

Thoughts? Added Speculation?

Again, I hope not. Bringing back Carson might have been a good idea if they hadn't brought in Keller, I think they recognised that while Beckett is a good character, there just really aren't good enough reasons to write a doctor into every ep, which is why Keller is doing so few.

PG15
June 26th, 2007, 10:50 PM
Heh, "true" Atlantis actually includes Ford and not Ronan, you know.

Uber
June 26th, 2007, 10:52 PM
I think should Atlantis be granted any kind of longevity, Season 4 will be the new normal.

But if for whatever reason TPTB are unable to woo Amanda to sign on the dotted line in the years to come, I doubt strongly that Weir would be put back into position. More than likely IMHO we'd get one of the other choices they were considering in case Amanda gave SGA a pass.

stclare
June 27th, 2007, 01:59 AM
As much as I have disliked the cast changes and from spoilers the new direction Atlantis is taking. I realy can't see that TPTB would reinstate Carson or Weir as regulars on the show, or for that matter Ford and Grodin.

TPTB have put there full support behind the changes and I think wether it works or not now, they cannot afford to make such large changes back again for season 5 without loosing the confidence of the fans and there boses. :(

I may not like or agree with the new show runners but I do respect that they have a made there decision and I will have to watch and decide wether it works for me personaly. I would however loose all respect for them if after 1 season they reset Atlantis back to mid season 3 as that would be admitting that season 4 was in someway a mistake. That I think would be bad for the Stargate universe in general and would probably affect any and all chances of getting a season 6 for those who are still around to watch it :cool:


parisindy
yup i know all that and agree, but if the impossible happened and it did go back to normal i would watch it, cause i loved Atlantis seasons 1-3 (except for Sunday and first strike of course )

arrh Parry I here what your sayin, but i think thats only gonna happen in fanfic. which im sure will pop up soon enough on LJ "the alternate season 4" ;)
and you know theres always popcorn and love on the couch :D (not the dirty kind lol)

prion
June 27th, 2007, 04:07 AM
As much as I have disliked the cast changes and from spoilers the new direction Atlantis is taking. I realy can't see that TPTB would reinstate Carson or Weir as regulars on the show, or for that matter Ford and Grodin.

TPTB have put there full support behind the changes and I think wether it works or not now, they cannot afford to make such large changes back again for season 5 without loosing the confidence of the fans and there boses. :(

I may not like or agree with the new show runners but I do respect that they have a made there decision and I will have to watch and decide wether it works for me personaly. I would however loose all respect for them if after 1 season they reset Atlantis back to mid season 3 as that would be admitting that season 4 was in someway a mistake. That I think would be bad for the Stargate universe in general and would probably affect any and all chances of getting a season 6 for those who are still around to watch it :cool:


If TPTB keep making casting changes, they'll lose the fans/viewers. It's fine if you're on a show that is supposed to always lose characters (i.e, reality shows <G>). Unfortunately far too many TV shows keep 'pushing the envelope' and using killing characters to up the ante and draw in viewers (although they probably lose an equal amount). I believe it was last year where you really couldn't watch any show without the producers killing off a character. It used to be you could rely on characters staying alive. TV is fantasy after all, and there's enough death in the real world and on TV news that you don't need it ad naseum on the fiction shows. I'd hate to think if they remade "Mr. Ed" today; they'd probably bump off the horse and replace it with a cow.

prion
June 27th, 2007, 04:11 AM
I sure hope so. It would suck to see her get settled in then leave.

Gee, sorta like Beckett ;)

A lot would depend on salary demands, etc. The contract is only for a year and if AT stays another year, I'm sure she'd realistically up salary demands, etc. which is normal in that business.

Ltcolshepjumper
June 27th, 2007, 04:16 AM
AT will probably up her demand after this 1 year. If, and I stress IF, SGA goes beyond Season 6, AT will probably be let go b/c of her salary.

Southern Red
June 27th, 2007, 04:41 AM
AT will probably up her demand after this 1 year. If, and I stress IF, SGA goes beyond Season 6, AT will probably be let go b/c of her salary.

Or maybe another character will join the ranks of the missing to make up for the salary difference. Hmm? Who probably makes the most money??? Let me think. ;) Hasn't there been talk on JM's blog of Daniel coming over also?

And wasn't it just less than a year ago the general concensus was that they would never get rid of Weir? No matter how you look at it and no matter what came first the Weir subtraction or the Carter addition, the SG-1ification of SGA has begun.

jenks
June 27th, 2007, 04:57 AM
No matter how you look at it and no matter what came first the Weir subtraction or the Carter addition, the SG-1ification of SGA has begun.

This statement has more to do with your lack of imagination than reality. If Carter coming over, and the odd guest appearence is all if takes for Atlantis to be turned into SG-1 then Atlantis must have been incredibly weak to begin with, you might think this is the case, I don't.

prion
June 27th, 2007, 05:00 AM
Or maybe another character will join the ranks of the missing to make up for the salary difference. Hmm? Who probably makes the most money??? Let me think. ;) Hasn't there been talk on JM's blog of Daniel coming over also?

And wasn't it just less than a year ago the general concensus was that they would never get rid of Weir? No matter how you look at it and no matter what came first the Weir subtraction or the Carter addition, the SG-1ification of SGA has begun.

SG-1ification. I like that word. Well, not really, but yes, there is the distinct possibility the insidious process has begun. The thing is that the writers/producers have to grow up and realize that SG1 is done, gone, etc. and to move on to a new series. No TV series lasts forever (except for 60 Minutes).

As much as I like Daniel, a one-shot guest shot (two episodes max) would do it. Otherwise, yes, to bring on board someone like that would probably cost a cast member or two in order to keep the budget in line. If budget were no object, SG1 would still be on the air.

Briangate78
June 27th, 2007, 05:21 AM
Gee, sorta like Beckett ;)

A lot would depend on salary demands, etc. The contract is only for a year and if AT stays another year, I'm sure she'd realistically up salary demands, etc. which is normal in that business.

Well I think the chances for a Season 5 just went up, but are still undecided. I don't see Amanda signing on for another season, maybe a few guest roles, but hey, you have this great actress and strong character she plays, Dr. Weir. Why not give her the spot back. Fans like when things go back to good, meaning back to how things were from the previous season.

Heck, some fans will grow to love Carter and will be dissapointed if she leaves and Weir returns. People warmed up to Jonas only for him to be booted out.

I have learned you cannot please everyone, just as long as the majority is happy, thats all that really matters. Sad but true.

Suzotchka
June 27th, 2007, 05:37 AM
I guess it all depends on what "normal" means. I think everyone can give different definitions for it. Normal for S3 or normal for S4. ?

Briangate78
June 27th, 2007, 05:56 AM
I guess it all depends on what "normal" means. I think everyone can give different definitions for it. Normal for S3 or normal for S4. ?

I think normal would be Weir taking back control of Atlantis instead of the military making the decisions.

Blev08
June 27th, 2007, 05:59 AM
Honestly, I don't want to see the show go back to "normal." In my opinion the show kind of got stuck in a rut especially in the back half of season 3 this became more apparent. For all you people complaining about Carter coming over, I'm surprised I don't see more complaining about the Replicators. Also I got the distinct impression they don't know what to do with the Wraith considering the lack of episodes involving them on any real scale.

Personally, I find Carter coming over interesting both in how her character will develop and interact with the characters on Atlantis and how her character will develop in a command role and hopefully will help keep my interest better unlike several of those episodes in the back half of 3.

Also, I wouldn't mind seeing Ford come back. I think that character could really make things interesting. You could use him to introduce a more extremist version of the IOA. Maybe having him get captured and freed by agents of said extremists and gaining their support or something.

Personally, I'm looking forward to the changes and Season 4, should be an interesting ride.

Briangate78
June 27th, 2007, 06:10 AM
Honestly, I don't want to see the show go back to "normal." In my opinion the show kind of got stuck in a rut especially in the back half of season 3 this became more apparent. For all you people complaining about Carter coming over, I'm surprised I don't see more complaining about the Replicators. Also I got the distinct impression they don't know what to do with the Wraith considering the lack of episodes involving them on any real scale.

Personally, I find Carter coming over interesting both in how her character will develop and interact with the characters on Atlantis and how her character will develop in a command role and hopefully will help keep my interest better unlike several of those episodes in the back half of 3.

Also, I wouldn't mind seeing Ford come back. I think that character could really make things interesting. You could use him to introduce a more extremist version of the IOA. Maybe having him get captured and freed by agents of said extremists and gaining their support or something.

Personally, I'm looking forward to the changes and Season 4, should be an interesting ride.

Well I agree about all that, except I do like the replicators, and after that attack in "First Strike" these replicators mean buisness.

I agree that having Carter around for S4 will be really interesting. But as I also complain about S4, is it that hard to put Weir in more than just 4 or 5 eps? I mean give the woman like 10 eps, you can afford it, lol.

I read that we should see more wraith and they are going to get deeper with the wraith also. So that should hopefully be back to basics.

S3 has been a great season, and if S4 lives up to season 3 or is even better, then I will be begging for a season 5! :)

elbo
June 27th, 2007, 06:19 AM
RCC said this in an MGM video interview which was posted to the MGM site in January, then yanked a week or so later - they posted too soon!

"Amanda Tapping will be joining the cast of Stargate Atlantis for 14 episodes for season 4.” There’s going to be fans of Atlantis who feel like they don’t want to see SG1 people coming over, they feel like Atlantis is their own thing now and they’ve embraced that thing… but you know…(BIG Pause) Amanda and Carter are such a likeable character, she’s such a good actress, I don’t see how anybody can have a problem with it once they see it. It’s a natural fit for the show and for the franchise to keep a little bit of SG1 going in Atlantis.” … “Hopefully for us we’ll get people who love Carter and love SG1 watching Atlantis where they might not have before and I think the people who really love Atlantis for what it is, are not going to see that spoiled or tarnished in anyway.”


This sound more like a effect/hope, than a cause/reason:



Yup, TPTB have stated that is one of the reasons to have an SG1 chracter on the show - to bring over those fans who either haven't watched it becuase they haven't bothered, or refused to watch it

I personally hope they will not bring back Weir like main character for S5 and the "high ratings" registred for S4 will show them that they didn't use the entire SGA potential in the previous 3 seasons. SGA with Weir, is overhall a good show, but this do not mean that they cannot make it very good or excelent. Also i don't think that SGA is about normal, but paranormal.

I also think that the changes they make in general to the show, should target firstly the fans of the show, and secondly the fans of the characters/actors and not the other way around.

I also don't think that Weir's fan pool is around 50% of the SGA viewers, but way lower. It that is the case then TPTB did a really poor job with SGA, with the writing, the story, the casting and the show deserve to be canceled. Although i don't think this is the case.

Southern Red
June 27th, 2007, 06:33 AM
This statement has more to do with your lack of imagination than reality. If Carter coming over, and the odd guest appearence is all if takes for Atlantis to be turned into SG-1 then Atlantis must have been incredibly weak to begin with, you might think this is the case, I don't.

One doesn't need much of an imagination when one can read the handwriting on the wall. LOL. And I didn't mean to imply that Carter/odd guest was all it would take. However, I did mean to imply that this is just the beginning. IMHO, of course.



Well I think the chances for a Season 5 just went up, but are still undecided. I don't see Amanda signing on for another season, maybe a few guest roles, but hey, you have this great actress and strong character she plays, Dr. Weir. Why not give her the spot back. Fans like when things go back to good, meaning back to how things were from the previous season.

Heck, some fans will grow to love Carter and will be dissapointed if she leaves and Weir returns. People warmed up to Jonas only for him to be booted out.

I have learned you cannot please everyone, just as long as the majority is happy, thats all that really matters. Sad but true.

In response to the bolded sentence above, have you been reading JM's blog or looked at any polls in the last 3 years on GW or most any other forum? They don't appear to be trying to please the majority, just the opposite. In fact, JM said that he didn't care if 10 times more people wanted X to happen, they were not going to influence creative decisions. All righty then. I'm thinking a good deal of the fan anger comes from just that kind of attitude. Personally, if I believed that the majority of fans hated Weir and wanted her gone, I could accept her fate a little more gracefully. Carson also.

jenks
June 27th, 2007, 06:47 AM
One doesn't need much of an imagination when one can read the handwriting on the wall. LOL. And I didn't mean to imply that Carter/odd guest was all it would take. However, I did mean to imply that this is just the beginning. IMHO, of course.



What makes you think that though, what indication has there been that season 4 will be anything like SG-1? From what I've heard there will be underlying arcs throughout the season and season 4 will be a lot more character driven than in the past, doesn't sound like SG-1 to me.

elbo
June 27th, 2007, 07:11 AM
In response to the bolded sentence above, have you been reading JM's blog or looked at any polls in the last 3 years on GW or most any other forum? They don't appear to be trying to please the majority, just the opposite.
In fact, JM said that he didn't care if 10 times more people wanted X to happen, they were not going to influence creative decisions. All righty then. I'm thinking a good deal of the fan anger comes from just that kind of attitude. Personally, if I believed that the majority of fans hated Weir and wanted her gone, I could accept her fate a little more gracefully. Carson also.

So i understand that you are the fan of a show customized by the online prefferences. So the fans (those who actually visit some sites) should decide the casting, the story, everything. LOL. I have nothing against, although i see how some writer who actually take pride in his work ("creative decison") may have everyting against (not something). But in this case, i'm almost convinced that a character like Weir would have been taken out from the cast after the first season.

Blev08
June 27th, 2007, 07:23 AM
So i understand that you are the fan of a show customized by the online prefferences. So the fans (those who actually visit some sites) should decide the casting, the story, everything. LOL. I have nothing against, although i see how some writer who actually take pride in his work ("creative decison") may have everyting against (not something). But in this case, i'm almost convinced that a character like Weir would have been taken out from the cast after the first season.

The bold statement I agree with. I found it extremely odd that Weir would've been left in command from a logical standpoint especially after Earth finding out about an enemy like the Wraith.

Think about it, at the start of the series it makes sense to have a character like Weir, "hey we're going to go find the Ancients maybe, or people in another galaxy" so having a diplomat in charge actually makes sense, but once it escalated to what it is now, Weir should've been replaced as leader a while ago.

Now mind you, I don't mind keeping the character around, having a diplomat around still makes sense but the Weir character needed to change because quite honestly all she really has done recently has become more and more annoying.

ToasterOnFire
June 27th, 2007, 07:25 AM
A good majority of fans were upset to see Carson go, whereas Weir's character is kind of a split thing. It seems that about half of fans hate her and half of the fans like her.
I doubt that. If I had to guess, I'd say that the majority of online fans either like or are neutral toward Weir. There are certainly fans who dislike or hate her, but I haven't seen enough to make me believe that half of fandom actively dislikes her. And I'd say the same for every other major character on Atlantis, save the ones that TPTB are intentionally trying to get fans to dislike like Kav, Caldwell, and Lucius.

Briangate78
June 27th, 2007, 07:55 AM
One doesn't need much of an imagination when one can read the handwriting on the wall. LOL. And I didn't mean to imply that Carter/odd guest was all it would take. However, I did mean to imply that this is just the beginning. IMHO, of course.




In response to the bolded sentence above, have you been reading JM's blog or looked at any polls in the last 3 years on GW or most any other forum? They don't appear to be trying to please the majority, just the opposite. In fact, JM said that he didn't care if 10 times more people wanted X to happen, they were not going to influence creative decisions. All righty then. I'm thinking a good deal of the fan anger comes from just that kind of attitude. Personally, if I believed that the majority of fans hated Weir and wanted her gone, I could accept her fate a little more gracefully. Carson also.

I've seen a lot of polls mainly on the Sci-fi forums. One of the polls was a 3 choice question...

What is your opinion of joining the cast?

I love carter [ 48 ] [48.00%]
I don't mind as long as she stays in the background [ 19 ] [19.00%]
I hate the idea - I want SGA's cast to stay as it is [ 33 ] [33.00%]

This is based on 100 fans. I have been to many forums, and even mod one of them. I see more support for Carter than no support. In fact I see people say lets get Carter and keep Weir. But for some reason they cannot afford both.

Link to poll...

http://forums.scifi.com/index.php?showtopic=2265293&st=0&start=0

I agree about Joe M, he writes for himself and not the fans. Not a good attitude. I don't think Cooper or Wright are like that, but i could be wrong.

Southern Red
June 27th, 2007, 08:09 AM
What makes you think that though, what indication has there been that season 4 will be anything like SG-1? From what I've heard there will be underlying arcs throughout the season and season 4 will be a lot more character driven than in the past, doesn't sound like SG-1 to me.

Nice job of trying to put words in my mouth, but that's not what I said at all. It just seems pretty logical to me that if they are bringing a major character from SG-1 over and putting her in charge and using said cast change to advertise the new season that they are trying to lure SG-1 viewers by making SGA more like SG-1.

And they also said the team would figure prominently. Sounds more SG-1 like to me. I thought they came to Atlantis to learn about the city and the ancients. Now we're off on a tangent with war and a lot of the episodes have featured the team going off world. Just my observations. :)



So i understand that you are the fan of a show customized by the online prefferences. So the fans (those who actually visit some sites) should decide the casting, the story, everything. LOL. I have nothing against, although i see how some writer who actually take pride in his work ("creative decison") may have everyting against (not something). But in this case, i'm almost convinced that a character like Weir would have been taken out from the cast after the first season.


There have been problems with how the character of Weir has been written. That I think everybody agrees on. But for the last 3 years on this forum and others some of us fans have been posting ideas on how to make her character better. Torri Higginson herself came online and went away with a list of ways we thought her character could be improved. A lot of them if I remember correctly were the very things that some of you have complained about. TPTB chose to ignore us and her when as I understand it she presented some of her own concerns and ours. We did not expect them to do everything we asked or wanted and still don't. We just gave ideas and they chose to not accept them.

A lot of showrunners want to know what the fans think, and if an idea works they try to do what pleases the viewers. After all, without viewers there is no show. This whole new reset may work and they end up with huge ratings in S4. I hope it does. No matter what I think, I will be watching. We are all affected by our prejudices. You don't like Weir. I get that, but no amount of arguing will change my mind or yours. ;)

Southern Red
June 27th, 2007, 08:16 AM
I've seen a lot of polls mainly on the Sci-fi forums. One of the polls was a 3 choice question...

What is your opinion of joining the cast?

I love carter [ 48 ] [48.00%]
I don't mind as long as she stays in the background [ 19 ] [19.00%]
I hate the idea - I want SGA's cast to stay as it is [ 33 ] [33.00%]

This is based on 100 fans. I have been to many forums, and even mod one of them. I see more support for Carter than no support. In fact I see people say lets get Carter and keep Weir. But for some reason they cannot afford both.

Link to poll...

http://forums.scifi.com/index.php?showtopic=2265293&st=0&start=0

I agree about Joe M, he writes for himself and not the fans. Not a good attitude. I don't think Cooper or Wright are like that, but i could be wrong.

What I see is 48 fans who love Carter and 52 who don't or are indifferent. In fact, I would have chosen that stay in the background option. I love Carter on SG-1. I just don't want her to take Elizabeth's position. She can hang out in the lab and argue with Rodney to her heart's content. She can even join Shep's team and give him a run for his money on military decisions. Heck, they can even ship her with Ronon for all I care. Just don't put her in charge of the whole expedition and get rid of Elizabeth.

maxbo
June 27th, 2007, 08:18 AM
Now, mind you that this is just speculation here, but I personally think the reason behind Carson's departure and Weir's reduced role are caused by Carter coming onto Atlantis.

Well, that speculation would be incorrect because the decision to reduce Elizabeth was made before the decision was made of who would lead SGA. I know some believe that there is a direct link between the two occurences, however, that's never made sense to me because why would they reduce Elizabeth for Sam when they can't be sure if AT would be willing to stay with SGA after Season 4?

That's why I initially thought this was a publicity stunt where Sam would come in for Season 4 to bring in some of the SG-1 fans and then Elizabeth would be brought back in, full-time, for Season 5.

When they annouced that Elizabeth had been reduced, no matter what, that fit the way Ford's recurring status was handled because the decision to reduce Ford was made before they cast Ronon.


But since they left Carson's "death" so ambiguous, do you guys think TPTB plan to bring everything back to uh..."normal" after AT's contract is up?

I disagree that Carson's death was ambiguous, in fact, it was so final that I'm concerned about how they plan to bring him back.


Will Season 5 mark the return of the 'true' Atlantis?

:sheppard: :ronan: :mckay: :weir: :beckett: :teyla:

Thoughts? Added Speculation?

If by "true" Atlantis you mean Atlantis with the Season 3 cast, then I doubt it. I believe that Carson and Elizabeth were made recurring characters because TPTB don't really know what to do with them. I'm afraid that the best we can hope for with Carson and Elizabeth is to see them a few times a year beyond Season 4 (that is, if there is a 'beyond Season 4').

Briangate78
June 27th, 2007, 08:25 AM
What I see is 48 fans who love Carter and 52 who don't or are indifferent. In fact, I would have chosen that stay in the background option. I love Carter on SG-1. I just don't want her to take Elizabeth's position. She can hang out in the lab and argue with Rodney to her heart's content. She can even join Shep's team and give him a run for his money on military decisions. Heck, they can even ship her with Ronon for all I care. Just don't put her in charge of the whole expedition and get rid of Elizabeth.

I feel the same way you do. :) I will be cherrishing those 4 or 5 eps Weir is in! :)

elbo
June 27th, 2007, 08:53 AM
I disagree that Carson's death was ambiguous, in fact, it was so final that I'm concerned about how they plan to bring him back.

I didn't see no ambiguous death in SGA untill now. Even Ford is quite dead in my book, with no way out that Wraith hive and no flighting skills to take a dart. I didn't understand why Shepp said: "You know Ford ..." at the end, suggesting that we might see him again, when the scenario was written in such way to close all the doors for Ford.

I don't think that ascension will be used to bring main characters back, as it was already used twice in SG1 and with good reasons. Also i don't think the ascension is in everyone's grasp. I think that someone should be really disperate to bring some character back, by ascension.

maxbo
June 27th, 2007, 09:31 AM
I didn't see no ambiguous death in SGA untill now. Even Ford is quite dead in my book, with no way out that Wraith hive and no flighting skills to take a dart. I didn't understand why Shepp said: "You know Ford ..." at the end, suggesting that we might see him again, when the scenario was written in such way to close all the doors for Ford.

I don't think that ascension will be used to bring main characters back, as it was already used twice in SG1 and with good reasons. Also i don't think the ascension is in everyone's grasp. I think that someone should be really disperate to bring some character back, by ascension.

Well, JM said that neither Carson nor Elizabeth would ascend, so that option is off the table. I don't know what's planned for Elizabeth, but I hope TPTB learned their lesson and will not give her a on-screen Carson-type of impossible-to-survive, dead as a door-knob death and then later say "oops", no one ever really dies in sci-fi.

Yes, I'm willing to suspend belief to see the return of Carson, but I also want TPTB to put serious thought and planning into his return.

As for Ford, his situation did seem to be pretty impossible to survive, however, we didn't see his demise, so there was more wiggle room for his survival than for Carson's. So, I disagree that TPTB closed all the doors for Ford. Unfortunately, they just don't appear to be interested in writing for the character. :(

PG15
June 27th, 2007, 12:54 PM
I agree about Joe M, he writes for himself and not the fans. Not a good attitude. I don't think Cooper or Wright are like that, but i could be wrong.


Creative productions do not rely on democratic processes. As JM has said time and again, there are fans and distractors of pretty much everything, and Gateworld is really only a tiny slice of that fandom.

An extreme slice, at that.

Briangate78
June 27th, 2007, 01:11 PM
Creative productions do not rely on democratic processes. As JM has said time and again, there are fans and distractors of pretty much everything, and Gateworld is really only a tiny slice of that fandom.

An extreme slice, at that.

Actually it doesn't matter what they do, as long as the show stays good, thats really my main concern. Character who depart will be missed but who knows maybe they can show up again. Obviously fans were successful with the Carson Beckett campaign.

Steve_the_Wraith
June 27th, 2007, 01:46 PM
Creative productions do not rely on democratic processes. As JM has said time and again, there are fans and distractors of pretty much everything, and Gateworld is really only a tiny slice of that fandom.

An extreme slice, at that.
Russel T. Davies the show runner for the new Doctor Who series (the ones in the last couple years) said the secret of his success was not to be influenced by the online fans.

IMO we the online fans don't represent fast majority of people who watch the show but don't post online

Briangate78
June 27th, 2007, 02:23 PM
Russel T. Davies the show runner for the new Doctor Who series (the ones in the last couple years) said the secret of his success was not to be influenced by the online fans.

IMO we the online fans don't represent fast majority of people who watch the show but don't post online

How can you make the on-lines happy. Half of them want this and half want that. It should be the quality of the show that matters the most. If characters have to die to make the show better and more interesting, so be it.

Agent_Dark
June 27th, 2007, 02:32 PM
I hope things don't return to pre s4 state by s5. By the time season 10 came around, most of the complaining had died down on the forums and the show was still pretty good to watch so with any luck by s5 most of the dead wood on the forums will have floated away ;)

Falcon Horus
June 27th, 2007, 02:58 PM
But JM has confirmed that he has a part at the end of season 4. He has also confirmed that it will not be alternate universe/dream.

Flashback anyone. Instead of using clips from previous episodes they shoot new scenes. It's possible.

****

Now, if there's a season 5 I highly doubt we'll see Carson again. Weir is a possibility, but that depends on how they write her out of season 4 (and write her out they will, Yoda says). If Carter stays around for season 5 and she wreaks havoc in season 4... Then I'll beat buggin' out and going home never to return again. I will have to cherish Atlantis-That-Was and ignore all the rest.

vaberella
June 27th, 2007, 03:01 PM
I hope things don't return to pre s4 state by s5. By the time season 10 came around, most of the complaining had died down on the forums and the show was still pretty good to watch so with any luck by s5 most of the dead wood on the forums will have floated away ;)

http://i42.photobucket.com/albums/e308/vaberella/iloveu2.gif ITA!!

If nothing else happens, I hope what you said in bold happens.

Drizzt Do'Urden
June 27th, 2007, 03:08 PM
Unfortunately, it was TPTB's decision to write Weir out before they decided on bringing in AT to replace her. They considered other replacements but settled on Carter, which means that even if AT isn't interested in signing on for s5, that doesn't necessarily mean they will just fall back on Weir, we may just end up with a new replacement.

Which really depresses me because I would LOVE to see them go back to Carson and Weir (what some of us may consider "normal" ;))

So just who were they consedering to replace wier befoer sg1 got the axe and they still needed to give carter something to do for another year

PG15
June 27th, 2007, 03:14 PM
We don't know.

vaberella
June 27th, 2007, 03:17 PM
So just who were they consedering to replace wier befoer sg1 got the axe and they still needed to give carter something to do for another year

JM said he wouldn't divulge that information out of consideration for the un-chosen candidates. Something of which I totally respect and completely understand his reason.

*I like to think that Steven Pellegi (sp?(Caldwell) might have been one of them.

Drizzt Do'Urden
June 27th, 2007, 03:25 PM
JM said he wouldn't divulge that information out of consideration for the un-chosen candidates. Something of which I totally respect and completely understand his reason.

*I like to think that Steven Pellegi (sp?(Caldwell) might have been one of them.


that's totally ok with me my guess would be either caldwel or in a perfect world (imo) rda

Col. Matarrese
June 27th, 2007, 03:33 PM
that's totally ok with me my guess would be either caldwel or in a perfect world (imo) rda

RDA would've been great, but I don't think we'll see him back for a good while now...

parisindy
June 27th, 2007, 03:40 PM
i would prefer if they left atlantis like it was before with out the sg-1 people
i would like it if ford returned and i think he and ronan together would drive shep batty hehe i would love to see that

ToasterOnFire
June 27th, 2007, 03:50 PM
I hope things don't return to pre s4 state by s5. By the time season 10 came around, most of the complaining had died down on the forums and the show was still pretty good to watch so with any luck by s5 most of the dead wood on the forums will have floated away ;)
Continuing the comparison, then Atlantis will be canceled after s5 due to poor ratings. I'm not convinced it'll even get that far, but hey. :D

On topic, no things will not return to "normal". That would require TPTB to admit they made a mistake with Weir and Carson. ;)

parisindy
June 27th, 2007, 03:52 PM
Continuing the comparison, then Atlantis will be canceled after s5 due to poor ratings. I'm not convinced it'll even get that far, but hey. :D

On topic, no things will not return to "normal". That would require TPTB to admit they made a mistake with Weir and Carson. ;)

sadly i agree 100%

Briangate78
June 27th, 2007, 04:36 PM
Continuing the comparison, then Atlantis will be canceled after s5 due to poor ratings. I'm not convinced it'll even get that far, but hey. :D

On topic, no things will not return to "normal". That would require TPTB to admit they made a mistake with Weir and Carson. ;)


sadly i agree 100%


Ok here I go again Mr. Optomistic. :p

Carson is returning for like 2 or 3 eps and could very well appear in Season 5 if we get there. Weir is not officially out and is recurring, Joe M even said in the interview with gateworld he is leaving her character open. Season 5 will leave more opportunity.

It's not about making a mistake it's about writing good TV. You have a tragedy someone is dead, but in Sci-fi anything is possible. If the writing is truly done well a return of a character will make fans glue their eyeballs to the TV set. :)

DragonEagle
June 27th, 2007, 05:27 PM
Ok here I go again Mr. Optomistic. :p

Carson is returning for like 2 or 3 eps and could very well appear in Season 5 if we get there. Weir is not officially out and is recurring, Joe M even said in the interview with gateworld he is leaving her character open. Season 5 will leave more opportunity.

It's not about making a mistake it's about writing good TV. You have a tragedy someone is dead, but in Sci-fi anything is possible. If the writing is truly done well a return of a character will make fans glue their eyeballs to the TV set. :)

I agree with you there Briangate, I want to see Carson back, but I want them to do it right, to put some thought into it. I could share my hopeful and yet doubtful theory, it has about a snowball's chance in hell of actually being true but here: Carson returns at the end of season 4, this we know, maybe someone else may know the episodes names and where they fall in the lineup, but I'm guessing like season finale or close to it? In which case my doubtful theory is that TPTB don't have Carson officially returning permanently yet because they do not yet know if there is going to be a s5 and if they said he was returning on a permanent basis that may imply to the fans that there is for a fact a season five.....I know this theory is kind of out there, and of course you have to deal with Keller basically just being a fill-in doc. But there you have it very doubtful....but don't crush my dreams! lol ;)

scifi_lemon
June 27th, 2007, 05:29 PM
Ok here I go again Mr. Optomistic. :p

Carson is returning for like 2 or 3 eps and could very well appear in Season 5 if we get there. Weir is not officially out and is recurring, Joe M even said in the interview with gateworld he is leaving her character open. Season 5 will leave more opportunity.

It's not about making a mistake it's about writing good TV. You have a tragedy someone is dead, but in Sci-fi anything is possible. If the writing is truly done well a return of a character will make fans glue their eyeballs to the TV set. :)

ITA. Carson's death was tragic, but at least he's coming back, right? I never was a fan of Weir to begin with, so I won't be missing her, but I'd be fine with it if she did return in S5. And Brian said, the return of the characters is open for S5. We'll just have to wait and see.

SG13-NightOps
June 27th, 2007, 05:38 PM
Continuing the comparison, then Atlantis will be canceled after s5 due to poor ratings. I'm not convinced it'll even get that far, but hey. :D

On topic, no things will not return to "normal". That would require TPTB to admit they made a mistake with Weir and Carson. ;)

In your opinion. ;)

Cant please everyone all of the time. *shrugs*
I will tell you if *I* think its a mistake after I see it. :)

Briangate78
June 27th, 2007, 05:44 PM
I agree with you there Briangate, I want to see Carson back, but I want them to do it right, to put some thought into it. I could share my hopeful and yet doubtful theory, it has about a snowball's chance in hell of actually being true but here: Carson returns at the end of season 4, this we know, maybe someone else may know the episodes names and where they fall in the lineup, but I'm guessing like season finale or close to it? In which case my doubtful theory is that TPTB don't have Carson officially returning permanently yet because they do not yet know if there is going to be a s5 and if they said he was returning on a permanent basis that may imply to the fans that there is for a fact a season five.....I know this theory is kind of out there, and of course you have to deal with Keller basically just being a fill-in doc. But there you have it very doubtful....but don't crush my dreams! lol ;)

This is a true story, The Sci-fi forums hit more viewers and members when Carson died than the series finale of SG-1. Interesting huh?

Also a lot of people other than on-line fans, got on TV and even had a petition outside Bridge Studios. So, either the writers had a plan all along or they actually listened to the fans. Either way both characters may be open for Season 5.

I honestly feel if the fans' voice is loud enough it will be heard by TPTB.

I really think there will be a good chance for a season 5. Season 3 ended with a bang, so lets just hope. :)

ITA. Carson's death was tragic, but at least he's coming back, right? I never was a fan of Weir to begin with, so I won't be missing her, but I'd be fine with it if she did return in S5. And Brian said, the return of the characters is open for S5. We'll just have to wait and see.

We miss certain characters and some we don't.. Ford who? lol. Sorry if you are a Ford fan, just a little joke. :p If it makes the series better and we enjoy the overall series, then we have to say well at least the change was for the better.

Briangate78
June 27th, 2007, 05:46 PM
In your opinion. ;)

Cant please everyone all of the time. *shrugs*
I will tell you if *I* think its a mistake after I see it. :)

Joe M said there was a hint in one of the last 3 eps of Season 3 about Carson. So obviously they have thought it out, and its killing me what the secret is. :p So if it's done in a clever matter, then it's far from a mistake. :)

SG13-NightOps
June 27th, 2007, 05:49 PM
Joe M said there was a hint in one of the last 3 eps of Season 3 about Carson. So obviously they have thought it out, and its killing me what the secret is. :p So if it's done in a clever matter, then it's far from a mistake. :)

Have I mentioned that I have driven myself nuts watching and rewatching those episodes, as well as reading transcripts trying to find that clue.

I will have to send JM some laxative laced chocolate if its a gee up.

Briangate78
June 27th, 2007, 06:04 PM
Have I mentioned that I have driven myself nuts watching and rewatching those episodes, as well as reading transcripts trying to find that clue.

I will have to send JM some laxative laced chocolate if its a gee up.

LOL, that would be too funny. :p

ToasterOnFire
June 27th, 2007, 06:39 PM
Ok here I go again Mr. Optomistic. :p
It's Ms., TYMV. :P

Here, I'll expand upon what I mean by "mistake". TPTB have stated or inferred that they moved Weir to recurring and out of the leadership position because she wasn't working out or wasn't in their vision for s4. After they put her to recurring status they looked for a replacement character and ended up with Carter. Carter (presumably) fits their vision of s4 better than Weir.

So, why would TPTB do an about face and return to "normal" - replace Carter with Weir in s5? Why would they downgrade Weir for one season...and then bring her back to full time? Conversely, why would they make such a hubbub over bring Carter to Atlantis...and then ditch her after a season? Most importantly, why would TPTB decide to bring back a character that was so outside of their original vision that they saw fit to remove her? IMO, the only reason they would do so is if they decided that their original vision was a mistake.

Not to mention if TPTB did switch Weir back it would make Carter look like a placecard or make TPTB look like they had made a mistake with her addition, which would rightfully tick off many of her fans... :mckay:

SG13-NightOps
June 27th, 2007, 06:51 PM
It's Ms., TYMV. :P

Here, I'll expand upon what I mean by "mistake". TPTB have stated or inferred that they moved Weir to recurring and out of the leadership position because she wasn't working out or wasn't in their vision for s4. After they put her to recurring status they looked for a replacement character and ended up with Carter. Carter (presumably) fits their vision of s4 better than Weir.

So, why would TPTB do an about face and return to "normal" - replace Carter with Weir in s5? Why would they downgrade Weir for one season...and then bring her back to full time? Conversely, why would they make such a hubbub over bring Carter to Atlantis...and then ditch her after a season? Most importantly, why would TPTB decide to bring back a character that was so outside of their original vision that they saw fit to remove her? IMO, the only reason they would do so is if they decided that their original vision was a mistake.

Not to mention if TPTB did switch Weir back it would make Carter look like a placecard or make TPTB look like they had made a mistake with her addition, which would rightfully tick off many of her fans... :mckay:

That makes more sense yes - however that doesn't yet mean it is going to be a mistake.

Also, what I have read of the Weir reduction was not because of "not fitting in" with their S4 vision. What i specifically read was that they are sending Weir in a new direction - which is part of the story arc - including a very personalised part of that that is Weir-centric.

Say, if theories hold true - Weir is captured by Oberoth and taken over by Nanites, and becomes Evil-Weir. Say then, if at the end of the season they PWARW's the Ausran's out of existence an find a way to disable the nanites, then it would make perfect sense for Weir to be able to return without it being a "mistake" but in fact, a story arc.

Much like Daniels ascension and descension. In both Abyss and The Changling, it shows he is a borderline rulebreaker. So when he does it in Full Circle, and gets punished, it does not seem out of the realms of possibility.

Depending on the story will depend on exactly whether or not they are 'making a mistake' or just 'planning a story'. Thats why its so impossible to judge this whole deal without seeing it first. We have no idea what the grand plan is.

Briangate78
June 27th, 2007, 07:52 PM
It's Ms., TYMV. :P

Here, I'll expand upon what I mean by "mistake". TPTB have stated or inferred that they moved Weir to recurring and out of the leadership position because she wasn't working out or wasn't in their vision for s4. After they put her to recurring status they looked for a replacement character and ended up with Carter. Carter (presumably) fits their vision of s4 better than Weir.

So, why would TPTB do an about face and return to "normal" - replace Carter with Weir in s5? Why would they downgrade Weir for one season...and then bring her back to full time? Conversely, why would they make such a hubbub over bring Carter to Atlantis...and then ditch her after a season? Most importantly, why would TPTB decide to bring back a character that was so outside of their original vision that they saw fit to remove her? IMO, the only reason they would do so is if they decided that their original vision was a mistake.

Not to mention if TPTB did switch Weir back it would make Carter look like a placecard or make TPTB look like they had made a mistake with her addition, which would rightfully tick off many of her fans... :mckay:

Actually was calling myself Mr. Optomistic. :)

I would not mind Carter to stay. I don't think it would be a mistake if they gave Weir back Atlantis command. It could be made to fit the story. I think Weir's character works. 3 Seasons have proven that. I think it all depends on a 5th season. Would Tapping sign onto another season of SGA? Will Weir continue her Recurring role? These questions are still unanswered.

I dunno I am not too upset about it, if S4 is amazing then it was for the best. I just would like the show to get to a 5th season, and to have Weir in a bunch of eps here and there. I don't think that is asking a lot.

scifi_lemon
June 27th, 2007, 07:56 PM
We miss certain characters and some we don't.. Ford who? lol. Sorry if you are a Ford fan, just a little joke. :p If it makes the series better and we enjoy the overall series, then we have to say well at least the change was for the better.

Ugh, I always thought Ford was annoying. He didn't become interesting until he got the crazy eye :P

If Carter doesn't work out, I'll gladly take back Weir. If she does...well...Weir who?

scifi_lemon
June 27th, 2007, 08:00 PM
It's Ms., TYMV. :P

Here, I'll expand upon what I mean by "mistake". TPTB have stated or inferred that they moved Weir to recurring and out of the leadership position because she wasn't working out or wasn't in their vision for s4. After they put her to recurring status they looked for a replacement character and ended up with Carter. Carter (presumably) fits their vision of s4 better than Weir.
<snipity snip>

I dunno...I don't mind having Carter over and depending on how her character pans out in S4, I'll cast my lots then ;)

Briangate78
June 27th, 2007, 08:05 PM
Ugh, I always thought Ford was annoying. He didn't become interesting until he got the crazy eye :P

If Carter doesn't work out, I'll gladly take back Weir. If she does...well...Weir who?


I am not concerned about season 4 like I was with Season 9 of SG-1. SG-1 had lost one of their lead castmembers(um the biggest castmember). Weir is one of the SGA leads but she is not always the focus like Sheppard's team is. Plus she will still be around for like 4 to 5 eps. If Sheppard or Mckay were getting the recurring role status, then I would be worried. I am just glad they gave Weir some depth and a bunch of her own focused eps. I mean look at Hammond from SG-1. 7 years and we only got a few eps on him even if that.

SG13-NightOps
June 27th, 2007, 08:17 PM
I am not concerned about season 4 like I was with Season 9 of SG-1. SG-1 had lost one of their lead castmembers(um the biggest castmember). Weir is one of the SGA leads but she is not always the focus like Sheppard's team is. Plus she will still be around for like 4 to 5 eps. If Sheppard or Mckay were getting the recurring role status, then I would be worried. I am just glad they gave Weir some depth and a bunch of her own focused eps. I mean look at Hammond from SG-1. 7 years and we only got a few eps on him even if that.

There were no Hammond-centric episodes. Ever. Chain Reaction was about him, but was more Jack, Maybourne and Kinsey.
1969 was probably the most 'history' development that Hammond ever got.

Based on that, it is clear that Weir was meant as more than just she who says "God speed" as they leave... but despite all the development and weir-centricities we were treated/subjected to, it still didnt do anymore for her than just make her she at the gate who says "God speed", imo.

That just to me highlights that there is only so much a base commander can do - no matter how developed or under-developed. Carter (imo) will offer much more than that to the BC role.

scifi_lemon
June 27th, 2007, 08:18 PM
I am not concerned about season 4 like I was with Season 9 of SG-1. SG-1 had lost one of their lead castmembers(um the biggest castmember). Weir is one of the SGA leads but she is not always the focus like Sheppard's team is. Plus she will still be around for like 4 to 5 eps. If Sheppard or Mckay were getting the recurring role status, then I would be worried. I am just glad they gave Weir some depth and a bunch of her own focused eps. I mean look at Hammond from SG-1. 7 years and we only got a few eps on him even if that.

ITA. If Shep or McKay got recurring...well, let's just say TPTB would have to hire bodyguards :P

the fifth man
June 27th, 2007, 08:47 PM
ITA. If Shep or McKay got recurring...well, let's just say TPTB would have to hire bodyguards :P

That is a very true statement. If they had done that, they might as well just end the show immediately. As far as the changes they've made for Season 4, I'm trying to stay positive. I think Carter could add a lot to this show. Time will tell though.

elbo
June 27th, 2007, 09:00 PM
Hey guys please don't bring anyone back. This is SGA not "Return of the living dead". Some characters die or simply leave and are replaced, for various reasons. Some of the actors playing them have other bussiness or the characters became incompatible with the development of the story (Weir). These changes are not necesarely a bad thing, the replacements could bring something new. New is good, and not necesarely not normal how the author of this thread suggest. The change is part of normality.

Unfortunately the fans with of some character or actors are very noisy with their opinions and petitions, and think that if they make their opinion louder they have the truth on their side and evryone else are mistaken, the principle of "raising the voice". Wrong, by doing this you interfere with TPTB plans for the show and you shorten the show's life.

There are a lot of fans who didn't find constructive keeping Weir in the season 2 and 3 in the middle of a all out war situation, but i didn't see any petion like "Dear Elizabeth, have mercy and clear off!" or any other "remove X character" stuff. If we didn't interferee for the sick of the show to remove some character from the mix and let the story flow, i also don't find right to bring other character from the dead and to cut the wings or new direction of the show.

Sci-fi or not, there are rules to be respected and a logical writing. The caracrters cannot pop in and pop out at the fans pleasing. They cannot change their plans for the show on monthly bases and still have a relevant and consistent sci-fi show, because of some fans so-called petitons.

Again, the fans who are pleased with the changes, or at least positive to them (vast majority) won't came to make petitions only to show acceptance to changes, because this is not the nature of a petition. And TPTB giving course to such petition, will only damage the show and alienate much more fans.

Look at it this way. TPTB put a lot of character bulding and screen time and though in a character like Weir. Reducing her role wasn't a easy thing to do, not because they risk upseting few fans, but because Weir is the results of carefull work and the lack of development for other characters (which seem a little unused and undeveloped). But they saw that reducing her role was their last chance to prolong the show life over the the 4th season and they took it. Yes this is the truth. I don't know how many fans will have resisted more than one season (4th) with Weir in leading role. And decide for yourself if the Weir's fans pool is enough to keep the show going.

Linzi
June 27th, 2007, 10:49 PM
Do I think things will return to 'normal' if a season 5 goes ahead? I have no idea what 'normal' is!

So, I'm assuming the thread title means will Weir and Carson be back as regulars? I think no. Carson, bless him, died. To bring him back full time wouldn't make sense to me, though I'm happy to have him back for guest appearances if how he is brought is inspired and relatively believable.

Weir? I agree with other posters who say her being in charge was unrealistic after they made contact with Earth again. I don't believe in the real world a civilian commander would have been deemed qualified to lead in that situation. I prefer Carter to Weir, so I think I'll like Carter being around more than Weir. I'd guess if season 4 is successful that AT will indeed stick around for season 5, and though I think it's possible Weir will make guest appearances, she was removed from the cast for whatever reasons TPTB have, and she won't be back as a regular character in SGA - that much has been made pretty clear to me in statements issued by TPTB.

Briangate78
June 28th, 2007, 05:33 AM
There were no Hammond-centric episodes. Ever. Chain Reaction was about him, but was more Jack, Maybourne and Kinsey.
1969 was probably the most 'history' development that Hammond ever got.

Based on that, it is clear that Weir was meant as more than just she who says "God speed" as they leave... but despite all the development and weir-centricities we were treated/subjected to, it still didnt do anymore for her than just make her she at the gate who says "God speed", imo.

That just to me highlights that there is only so much a base commander can do - no matter how developed or under-developed. Carter (imo) will offer much more than that to the BC role.

And their supposed to be having Weir focused eps next season, So its obvious they want to keep her around and her character open. TPTB like to write about her character. I don't think she will get the Ford or Carson treatment. We'll just have to wait and see.

Linzi
June 28th, 2007, 06:06 AM
And their supposed to be having Weir focused eps next season, So its obvious they want to keep her around and her character open. TPTB like to write about her character. I don't think she will get the Ford or Carson treatment. We'll just have to wait and see.
Well, in the recent JM and PM interview with GW they actually said Weir was going to be like Ford:

GW: So it's maybe a situation that's comparable, to Lieutenant Ford in Season Two, where he's out there and could come back?

JM: Yep.

Briangate78
June 28th, 2007, 06:48 AM
Well, in the recent JM and PM interview with GW they actually said Weir was going to be like Ford:

GW: So it's maybe a situation that's comparable, to Lieutenant Ford in Season Two, where he's out there and could come back?

JM: Yep.



Still better than Carson's fate. :) The could come back is always a hopeful statement.

Hmmmm. Maybe they should rename the show Stargate Survivor. :p

vaberella
June 28th, 2007, 06:50 AM
And their supposed to be having Weir focused eps next season, So its obvious they want to keep her around and her character open. TPTB like to write about her character. I don't think she will get the Ford or Carson treatment. We'll just have to wait and see.

Actually to the comment in bold. There are zero Weir focused eps next seaon that I know of, she will be in four eps that we know of. She will play a major role in an arc, but she will not have any eps focused on her.


Anonymous #3 writes: “Is that major arc for Elizabeth in season 4 still on?”

Answer: I never said it was a major arc for Elizabeth. I said “the Weir character will be a significant player in a major arc”. There’s a difference.

Here's the link: http://josephmallozzi.blogspot.com/2007/02/february-28-2007.html

maxbo
June 28th, 2007, 09:10 AM
There were no Hammond-centric episodes. Ever. Chain Reaction was about him, but was more Jack, Maybourne and Kinsey.
1969 was probably the most 'history' development that Hammond ever got.

Based on that, it is clear that Weir was meant as more than just she who says "God speed" as they leave... but despite all the development and weir-centricities we were treated/subjected to, it still didnt do anymore for her than just make her she at the gate who says "God speed", imo.

That just to me highlights that there is only so much a base commander can do - no matter how developed or under-developed. Carter (imo) will offer much more than that to the BC role.

I agree that Elizabeth's role in SGA was intended to be larger than Hammond's role was in SG-1, however, the writing rarely supported that intent. After Season 1, it became increasingly obvious that TPTB didn't think through how to substantially incorporate Elizabeth in the average episode, and as a result, the character was written more and more unevenly. The main problem with Elizabeth is that she was a civilian leading a military operation and the only way to make that believable (after Season 1) was to show why she was still allowed to hold that position.

In Season 1, it was easy to see why she retained that position. They were cut off from Earth and the highest ranking military officer, Sheppard, didn't want it. In addition, the members of the expedition were used to having Elizabeth as their leader. However, by Season 2, the connection with Earth had changed the situation to the point where it wasn't believable that SGA would be allowed to remain civilian led - at least not without strong writing to support why. With a seemingly unstoppable enemy, the Wraith, who viewed humans as cattle, Elizabeth's diplomatic skills were of limited use so it was up to the writers to show why she was still SGA's leader and, IMO, they failed miserably.

For one brief moment, at the end of Season 1, I thought the writers were planning to show us why she was still leader when they showed her gaining Colonel Everett's respect during The Siege. Unfortunately, that effort didn't last long because later they seemed rudderless about what to do with her.

When I first heard about the rumored darker Elizabeth storyline for the end of Season 2 through Season 3, I thought the writers had finally realized that they needed to fix this mess and salvage Elizabeth. Unfortunately, that storyline (yes, it's a stretch to call it a storyline) was put together so haphazardly that all I could think while watching was what were the writers trying to accomplish? What was I supposed to get out of those episodes? There were so many pieces missing that rather than helping Elizabeth, this storyline hurt the character even more.

Season 3 was a mixed bag for the character and I thought she had several very good moments, however, after I heard the news that she was would be reduced to recurring, the first episode that came to mind was The Game. IMO, that episode should have been an Elizabeth episode and if the writers were committed to the character it would have been. What did Sheppard and McKay know about brokering peace agreements? Nothing. Yet, the majority of The Game was about them attempting to broker peace between warring factions while Elizabeth, the experienced diplomat, was sidelined.

In retrospect, the writing was on the wall for that character and I wouldn't be surprised if she receives the Ford treatment. So, in response to the topic of this thread, that would be "normal" for SGA because when TPTB are no longer interested in writing for a character, then that character is either eliminated or reduced.

the dancer of spaz
June 28th, 2007, 09:15 AM
There was a time earlier this year when I thought that it'd be really cool for Weir to come back for season five, assuming AT didn't sign on. But now, after seeing how little Liz will be involved, I don't think it'll be very logical to hit any sort of "reset" button. The Carson issue is another one that I can't see them un-doing for the sake of a fifth season.

What's done is done. While I think they made a mistake killing off Carson, and I don't agree with them writing out Liz, I think they need to stick with their decisions and make the most of it with the actors they have.

Falcon Horus
June 28th, 2007, 11:19 AM
Hmmmm. Maybe they should rename the show Stargate Survivor. :p

Mental GREEN, cause I ran out...again.

Mitchell82
June 28th, 2007, 12:18 PM
ITA. If Shep or McKay got recurring...well, let's just say TPTB would have to hire bodyguards :P

ITA.

Arica12
June 28th, 2007, 12:38 PM
I think they will to have a very serious look at the reaction to the changes and try to work out exactly what they can possibly do to repair some of the damage that has been caused.

I for one would be delighted to see both Beckett and Weir back but realistically I don't hold out much hope.

There are a lot of people who are fine with the changes, but there are also a lot of people who are not fine with it. The problem here if we can take out the indivdual characters effected for the moment is that the producers/writers have managed to alienate such a large proprtion of their viewers, whatever your opinion on the changes, pro or anti I don't think anyone could argue that the atmosphere around this is helping the show.

Perhaps everyone is just going to have to dampen down their expectations for Staragte Atlantis, the anti change - of whom i readily admit I am one - may just have to admit that this may no longer be the show for us, while the pro's may just have to accept that these changes may negatively impact the shows future.

The worst result for everyone.

Briangate78
June 28th, 2007, 04:17 PM
Alternatively, perhaps the bar has been raised for Atlantis, the anti's may just have to admit that the changes will have a positive affect on the show, something the pro's knew from the begining.

The best result for everyone.


I agree! Replacing Ford with Ronon was a good move. We miss characters maybe they return in a few eps here and there, but if their loss gets the show more seasons, and like you said "raises the bar", so be it.

Briangate78
June 28th, 2007, 04:36 PM
dude i will never admit that cause it will never be true... that is your opinion only

Now it worked with Ford, imo. Will it work for Carson and Weir, Um i dunno maybe, maybe not. I liked Carson and was sad to see him be killed off. Now with Weir it's even harder. I love her character but also love Carter. I know we cannot have both full time. I just want to scream! :S

parisindy
June 28th, 2007, 04:43 PM
i liked ford... i also like ronan i can't see why we couldn't have had both

getting rid of carson and weir imho is just stupid, i won't even get started on sam and weir... this is not the thread for it.

i want things to go back to normal, its the only way i will watch season 4 or 5 or any other seasons.

I've lost my fav show :( http://i34.photobucket.com/albums/d142/mercurys_winter/cry2.gif

Agent_Dark
June 28th, 2007, 04:45 PM
dude i will never admit that cause it will never be true... that is your opinion only

sif. What you're arguing will never happen because it will never be true. that's your opinion only.

parisindy
June 28th, 2007, 04:48 PM
sif. What you're arguing will never happen because it will never be true. that's your opinion only.


yup your right i agree and thats why i don't watch atlantis anymore and thats also why i would never admit that the changes were good for atlantis...its not cool being told i would have to admit something that is not true for me and never will be

Agent_Dark
June 28th, 2007, 04:54 PM
yup your right i agree and thats why i don't watch atlantis anymore and thats also why i would never admit that the changes were good for atlantis...its not cool being told i would have to admit something that is not true

yet we were just told that we'd have to damped our expectations and admit that the changes would be bad. Admitting that were being told to admit that the changes would be bad would be false because we are admitting that the changes would be good is countering the changes would be bad. To admit. And that would mean that the show would be leet and that would be good for everyone.

btw, if you can understand this post, have a cookie O.O

parisindy
June 28th, 2007, 04:56 PM
btw, if you can understand this post, have a cookie O.O

erm no i didn't but its okay i'm not looking to argue anyways

Atlantis1
June 28th, 2007, 05:03 PM
yup your right i agree and thats why i don't watch atlantis anymore and thats also why i would never admit that the changes were good for atlantis...its not cool being told i would have to admit something that is not true for me and never will be

You have every right to feel the way you do. Your opinion is just as right as everybody elses.

vaberella
June 28th, 2007, 05:06 PM
Why is there always talk on Ford, Carson and Weir?! If we're going to miss our guys in the past what about Grodin?! Grodin didn't need to die. Grodin was my man. He was also the only one with a bloody british flag that had lines. Personally it would have been cooler if he had St. George's Cross flag but American's might confuse him with a paramedic or something...:(.

Anyway, you can tell that Grodin was also killed for affect, much like Carson, that being said, people liked the way he went out. I wasn't a fan, because I said I liked him. But I didn't have a problem 2 eps later because I realize it didn't detract from the show and people can't say he wasn't in the show.

His death was done with honor like Carsons. In a "blaze of glory" so to speak. Further more it added to the overall storyline to show the magnitude of danger these people are under. I think this will be the case for Carson/Weir. Sure at first it will be a problem, unlike the Ford/Grodin situation which people didn't seem to have such a problem with (besides my Ford cats when it comes to Ford (me love Ford too)). Those two changes were good for the show, I believe the C/W changes will be good as well. I don't see TPTB making changes that they will feel is ultimately bad and by their track record on changes, they've done well.

PG15
June 28th, 2007, 05:09 PM
yup your right i agree and thats why i don't watch atlantis anymore and thats also why i would never admit that the changes were good for atlantis...its not cool being told i would have to admit something that is not true for me and never will be

I mean no offense, but don't you think that's a tad close-minded? You know what they say, "never say never", or some such. I'm pretty pro, but I'll admit to your face and everyone elses' if the changes resulted in a bad show come Season 4.

Skydiver
June 28th, 2007, 05:14 PM
for the umpteenth time....leave other fans out of it.

the topic is things 'returning to normal in by s5' not whether or not some other fans/fan groups will be 'right'

vaberella
June 28th, 2007, 05:16 PM
I mean no offense, but don't you think that's a tad close-minded? You know what they say, "never say never", or some such. I'm pretty pro, but I'll admit to your face and everyone elses' if the changes resulted in a bad show come Season 4.

Agreed. I think any and ALL Pros will have something to say if there are eps that don't meet the standards we're expecting for S4. I think, as I've said before, this may be the misconceptions of the anti's. Like we won't see anything bad, I'm sure I will see some stuff i won't like and I'll say something. I'm not known for keeping my mouth shut anyway. It gets me into so much trouble. :D

elbo
June 28th, 2007, 11:05 PM
You have every right to feel the way you do.

I agree. Everyone has the right to their feelings. Myself, for example i feel bored by some comments which suggest that some people won't watch SGA because of the last changes. Is not in my power or anyone else on this forum to change the changes, so telling the same thing 100 times to us, won't change that. There is however a real possibility to bore some people who don't feel the same way. And this opens a new discission, if all opinions have the same relevance in the context. While the right cannot be questioned, the opportunity of some opinions can be.


Your opinion is just as right as everybody elses.

I disagree. There are some opinions which are mutual exclusive and cannot be all at the same time corect. For example, few time ago, people argued if Earth is round or flat. It turned out that neither of their opinions was corect. There is slight difference in saying "i think that changing X and Y is stupid" and stating "changing X and Y is stupid". The first opinion is always corect, as it express what "he thinks" and assuming he is telling the truth, the expresion is also true. In the second case, however his statement (notice how i didn't use "opinion") may be either corect or incorect, and may also be target to criticism and controversy. So i don't see why such statement could not be attacked or contradicted with arguments and ultimatively proove wrong.

DragonEagle
June 28th, 2007, 11:24 PM
I disagree. There are some opinions which are mutual exclusive and cannot be all at the same time corect. For example, few time ago, people argued if Earth is round or flat. It turned out that neither of their opinions was corect. There is slight difference in saying "i think that changing X and Y is stupid" and stating "changing X and Y is stupid". The first opinion is always corect, as it express what "he thinks" and assuming he is telling the truth, the expresion is also true. In the second case, however his statement (notice how i didn't use "opinion") may be either corect or incorect, and may also be target to criticism and controversy. So i don't see why such statement could not be attacked or contradicted with arguments and ultimatively proove wrong.

Seriously elbo, don't you think that's kind of splitting hairs? I mean you know its their opinion regardless of how they say it. If someone says "killing off Beckett was a stupid move" nobody takes that as a fact, everyone knows it is just that person's individual opinion, and they are entitled to it. Sure they could be a little more grown up about it, but what you are arguing here is semantics.

elbo
June 29th, 2007, 12:08 AM
Seriously elbo, don't you think that's kind of splitting hairs? I mean you know its their opinion regardless of how they say it. If someone says "killing off Beckett was a stupid move" nobody takes that as a fact, everyone knows it is just that person's individual opinion, and they are entitled to it. Sure they could be a little more grown up about it, but what you are arguing here is semantics.

Maby. This do not mean that other people cannot question the content, opportunity and valitidity of such expressed opinion, how he suggest in a later post. As you for example are doing with mine. The point is that each opinion/statement can be subject to criticism and some people take this criticism very personal. One could defend his opinion if he chooses and not saying only because it is his opinion, its validity is also untouchable. At least this is my opinion, that while someone is entitled to any opinion, each opinion can be also subject to any criticism, regarding its different aspects: relevance, validity or content.

SG13-NightOps
June 29th, 2007, 12:38 AM
Season 3 was a mixed bag for the character and I thought she had several very good moments, however, after I heard the news that she was would be reduced to recurring, the first episode that came to mind was The Game. IMO, that episode should have been an Elizabeth episode and if the writers were committed to the character it would have been. What did Sheppard and McKay know about brokering peace agreements? Nothing. Yet, the majority of The Game was about them attempting to broker peace between warring factions while Elizabeth, the experienced diplomat, was sidelined.


I have to agree here. That was a horrible painful waste of a Weir opportunity. IF she had had McKay and Shep in the room with their townsfolk, then she should have been able to work that out on her ear - its what she does. She gave it a couple of minutes and gave up.

That was - IMO - ridiculous.


yup your right i agree and thats why i don't watch atlantis anymore and thats also why i would never admit that the changes were good for atlantis...its not cool being told i would have to admit something that is not true for me and never will be

Whether or not the changes are good for Atlantis will tell in the ratings. We have no control over that by our admissions either way. Some of us have absolutely no control at all being in the wrong country and not having the handy dandy Neilson box.
What you admit, is that the changes are bad for your viewing enjoyment.


btw, if you can understand this post, have a cookie O.O

Damn! I like cookies :(


I mean no offense, but don't you think that's a tad close-minded? You know what they say, "never say never", or some such. I'm pretty pro, but I'll admit to your face and everyone elses' if the changes resulted in a bad show come Season 4.
Pro = Wait and See - but we want the option TO see! :D

vaberella
June 29th, 2007, 03:46 AM
I have to agree here. That was a horrible painful waste of a Weir opportunity. IF she had had McKay and Shep in the room with their townsfolk, then she should have been able to work that out on her ear - its what she does. She gave it a couple of minutes and gave up.

That was - IMO - ridiculous.
Actually in regards to The Game, I understood why the writers went the route they did. At first I had wondered what was going on like Maxbo said and what you said. But then I realized that Sheppard and McKay were the respective leaders oracles. No matter what Weir would say or do it would mean nothing because they would ONLY listen to their oracles. It was the oracles that got them to where they were, and pretty much rescued them from either starvation or squallor. Even if the Oracles were to say "speak to my representative" ie Weir, it wouldn't matter, these people only saw McKay or Shep as their god.

Later when the people found out that McKay and Shep were just human and they weren't really oracles, where the guy leader was increased the military or some such. At that point the leaders may have spoken to Weir, but their hatred for each other would make that a waste, not to mention they were still loyal to those who helped them (Weir again would lose any footing). This was towards the end of the episode.

I can't see how Weir's expertise can compete with god-like allegiance, actually it just never would. So The Game made sense to me, although at first I did have a slight problem. I'll just never really understand The Tower or the fact there was never a military militia of allied people added to the fight against the wraith. There were plenty of side stories for Weir that fell through. Oh well...what's done is done. She's out, and Carter's in!!


Whether or not the changes are good for Atlantis will tell in the ratings. We have no control over that by our admissions either way. Some of us have absolutely no control at all being in the wrong country and not having the handy dandy Neilson box.
What you admit, is that the changes are bad for your viewing enjoyment.
I don't think it will tell by the ratings, ealier on in another thread there are too many variables associated with the ratings in order to tell for certain a show is good. I thought Sateda was the best ep next to Progeny of S3---none compared to RDA's presence in TRW (which I personally thought was at the bottom along side Irresponsible, for poor writing---Internet in an asylum?! Get real). Not to mention lack of advertising (after the previews last week, I haven't seen a commercial for SGA---and I was living off scifi for a few days), and also as mentioned before the greatness of DVR which I have and will be using. :S So I will watch the eps, but I won't be counted among those millions of viewers, at times, unfortunately.


Pro = Wait and See - but we want the option TO see! :D
I'd green you for that, but I can't!! :D

SG13-NightOps
June 29th, 2007, 04:20 AM
Actually in regards to The Game, I understood why the writers went the route they did. At first I had wondered what was going on like Maxbo said and what you said. But then I realized that Sheppard and McKay were the respective leaders oracles. No matter what Weir would say or do it would mean nothing because they would ONLY listen to their oracles. It was the oracles that got them to where they were, and pretty much rescued them from either starvation or squallor. Even if the Oracles were to say "speak to my representative" ie Weir, it wouldn't matter, these people only saw McKay or Shep as their god.

Later when the people found out that McKay and Shep were just human and they weren't really oracles, where the guy leader was increased the military or some such. At that point the leaders may have spoken to Weir, but their hatred for each other would make that a waste, not to mention they were still loyal to those who helped them (Weir again would lose any footing). This was towards the end of the episode.

I can't see how Weir's expertise can compete with god-like allegiance, actually it just never would. So The Game made sense to me, although at first I did have a slight problem. I'll just never really understand The Tower or the fact there was never a military militia of allied people added to the fight against the wraith. There were plenty of side stories for Weir that fell through. Oh well...what's done is done. She's out, and Carter's in!!
Indeed - its just that lost city and TRW would have you believe she is some crack negotiator that can fix any argument - and she gave up - literally gave up when it would result in war. As she said, to her the best way to stop the proliferation of weapons was to remove the need for them.
It just didnt keep in character I thought.



I don't think it will tell by the ratings, ealier on in another thread there are too many variables associated with the ratings in order to tell for certain a show is good. I thought Sateda was the best ep next to Progeny of S3---none compared to RDA's presence in TRW (which I personally thought was at the bottom along side Irresponsible, for poor writing---Internet in an asylum?! Get real). Not to mention lack of advertising (after the previews last week, I haven't seen a commercial for SGA---and I was living off scifi for a few days), and also as mentioned before the greatness of DVR which I have and will be using. :S So I will watch the eps, but I won't be counted among those millions of viewers, at times, unfortunately.
All I meant by that is that the shows future hinges on the ratings - one way or another they will decide its fate. Whether its due to the changes or not would be the next big discussion on here, but until we see them and hear whether or not we get a season 6 (I feel very confident for 5) - it's all kinda moot to argue what effect the casting changes will have on Atlantis.



I'd green you for that, but I can't!! :D
:D But its oh so true!

vaberella
June 29th, 2007, 06:07 AM
Indeed - its just that lost city and TRW would have you believe she is some crack negotiator that can fix any argument - and she gave up - literally gave up when it would result in war. As she said, to her the best way to stop the proliferation of weapons was to remove the need for them.
It just didnt keep in character I thought.

I don't know Weir from Lost City. But I'm about to take the time to watch it. Weir for me is never kept in character. She's literally all over the place and not sure what she's doing. Most of the time I just saw her as prejudice. It seemed to me when it came to the more "primitive" people they really didn't matter to her. The Brotherhood, even when they C4 in exchange for food and she was livid with John for taking that initiative, The Genii really didn't mean anything to her. Meaning, I would just find these people someone to be monitored if I gave them C4. And when they found out about the Genii, it still didn't seem like she felt they were a threat. I just don't get it. It's that whole over-estimating their abilities thing that always bothered me. It wasn't until she really needed something as seen in The Seige II or III, did we see her associate with them. And this is after finding out they're fairly advanced.

But when it came to people in Condemned, Inferno, and later Progeny these people were worth her time. To her if they are ancient related or able to survive the wraith those are the people she will deem worthy to talk to. Other's she could give a flying lick about. They mean nothing, the teams will associate with the boring village people, she'll only talk to the ones who are viable. And when their no longer viable as seen with Inferno, she dumps them on a piece of land like villagers and they become puppy chow. It was when she said:
Well, Ancients or not, they’re obviously an advanced society, and I would like to establish diplomatic relations with them immediately.I think I was really done with her when I heard this, while her attitude in NML and Misbegotten irked me to know end. It just showed so much to me. When it comes to diplomatic ties, most leaders will be meet with other leaders in conference, because it's a sign of respect. Weir doesn't do that, only the ones that are "worth" something to her does she see viable.

That's why I always thought if she was working on a Peggy militia to make SGA semi-independent of Earth and working with planetary leaders who want the end of the wraith---if only for man power and exchange of information and connections she would be viable. But for 3 years all I felt Weir achieved was the mastery of solitaire. And this is just one of the ALL around minor problems I had with the character. I've already listed specifi eps in which I just wanted her gone.



All I meant by that is that the shows future hinges on the ratings - one way or another they will decide its fate. Whether its due to the changes or not would be the next big discussion on here, but until we see them and hear whether or not we get a season 6 (I feel very confident for 5) - it's all kinda moot to argue what effect the casting changes will have on Atlantis.
True and I agree.

Briangate78
June 29th, 2007, 06:19 AM
When I think of normal, that is kinda not interesting. As much as I wish Weir would appear in more eps than 4 or 5, sometimes things need to be done to make them more interesting. Let's first get to a season 5 and then see where it takes us. :)

the dancer of spaz
June 29th, 2007, 06:28 AM
S5 could find Sam Carter off on some intense, top-secret mission with the former SG-1 while John is promoted to full bird colonel and gets Sam's position. *shrug* And I'm sure there'd be many people who would find that "normal."

Blev08
June 29th, 2007, 06:31 AM
S5 could find Sam Carter off on some intense, top-secret mission with the former SG-1 while John is promoted to full bird colonel and gets Sam's position. *shrug* And I'm sure there'd be many people who would find that "normal."

I honestly wouldn't want to see that happen. Go look at Stargate Season 8 when O'neill got promoted to General. Basically Sheppard would be in the same position without anyone outranking him so he wouldn't really be going offworld and you would lose a little bit of...I dunno what to call it, you would lose something though.

the dancer of spaz
June 29th, 2007, 06:38 AM
I honestly wouldn't want to see that happen. Go look at Stargate Season 8 when O'neill got promoted to General. Basically Sheppard would be in the same poosition without anyone outranking him so he wouldn't really be going offworld and you would lose a little bit of...I dunno what to call it, you would lose something though.

Yeah, I know what you mean. A lot of people don't want him to lose that team leader status, but they don't want Carter to be his superior. So, assuming Carter's not in the picture for S5 (though part of thinks she definitely would be if S4 does alright), I guess they could try to woo Pileggi or the actor who plays Colonel Ellis.

Blev08
June 29th, 2007, 06:57 AM
Yeah, I know what you mean. A lot of people don't want him to lose that team leader status, but they don't want Carter to be his superior. So, assuming Carter's not in the picture for S5 (though part of thinks she definitely would be if S4 does alright), I guess they could try to woo Pileggi or the actor who plays Colonel Ellis.

Here's the thing I think though, the people that just don't want to see Weir go won't be happy who gets stuck there, period. So really, I'm wondering how much if it is really the character Carter's fault. I mean any established character unfortunately there are going to be people who do not like that character. In the end though, a character like Carter brings a whole lot more to the table since the character is already established rather than a new character. I also view her character as a stronger character than either two of the Colonels on the ships.

The thing I don't get though is all the people who are already saying they hate it and aren't going to watch the show before it has even aired because at this point honestly we do not know if it is going to be a good change or a bad one until we see it and judging it beforehand just doesn't make sense in my mind.

the dancer of spaz
June 29th, 2007, 08:01 AM
Here's the thing I think though, the people that just don't want to see Weir go won't be happy who gets stuck there, period. So really, I'm wondering how much if it is really the character Carter's fault. I mean any established character unfortunately there are going to be people who do not like that character. In the end though, a character like Carter brings a whole lot more to the table since the character is already established rather than a new character. I also view her character as a stronger character than either two of the Colonels on the ships.

I agree that, probably no matter what, people would have been irked by a new commander of any kind.


The thing I don't get though is all the people who are already saying they hate it and aren't going to watch the show before it has even aired because at this point honestly we do not know if it is going to be a good change or a bad one until we see it and judging it beforehand just doesn't make sense in my mind.

I know that I personally wouldn't do that (I hated S9 and watched every episode, as twisted as that sounds), but I don't know if I blame people for quitting the show now that the things they love about it are disappearing. The only problem I do have with that choice is that some people will continue to come on the forum and bash a show they no longer watch, based on what their friends will say... That's illogical to me.

That said, if Carter had been written completely out of season nine or ten, I can't honestly say that I would definitely be watching the show as avidly today. So I understand where a lot of people are coming from in that regard.

Cautious Explorer
June 29th, 2007, 08:43 AM
Here's the thing I think though, the people that just don't want to see Weir go won't be happy who gets stuck there, period. So really, I'm wondering how much if it is really the character Carter's fault. I mean any established character unfortunately there are going to be people who do not like that character. In the end though, a character like Carter brings a whole lot more to the table since the character is already established rather than a new character. I also view her character as a stronger character than either two of the Colonels on the ships.



I agree that, probably no matter what, people would have been irked by a new commander of any kind.

I'm fine with a new commander. That's not what bothers me. It's the idea of bringing in any character who's already an established character on SG1 (not just Carter). I know it's an attempt to woo the Carter fans to Atlantis, so if I have to deal with it to see the show continue, so be it. But personally, I just think it would be so much better to bring in a character specifically created for the role. If Weir no longer meets the needs of the show, then why not create a brand new character who does?

I've seen many comments that Carter being already established for 10 years in SG1 makes her a better fit for the role of commander on SGA. I guess it would be easier for the writers, but I'm not sure that easier means better.

Maybe if I were a fan of both shows I'd feel differently. But being a fan of SGA, I'm worried that screen time and characterization for my current favorites will be sacrificed in favor of falling back on more scenes for the old favorite, easier-to-write-for character.

Hopefully I'm completely wrong here. Just can't help being concerned.

prion
June 29th, 2007, 03:33 PM
I'm fine with a new commander. That's not what bothers me. It's the idea of bringing in any character who's already an established character on SG1 (not just Carter). I know it's an attempt to woo the Carter fans to Atlantis, so if I have to deal with it to see the show continue, so be it. But personally, I just think it would be so much better to bring in a character specifically created for the role. If Weir no longer meets the needs of the show, then why not create a brand new character who does?

I've seen many comments that Carter being already established for 10 years in SG1 makes her a better fit for the role of commander on SGA. I guess it would be easier for the writers, but I'm not sure that easier means better.

Maybe if I were a fan of both shows I'd feel differently. But being a fan of SGA, I'm worried that screen time and characterization for my current favorites will be sacrificed in favor of falling back on more scenes for the old favorite, easier-to-write-for character.

Hopefully I'm completely wrong here. Just can't help being concerned.

Agreed. That's what concerns many SGA fans.

SG13-NightOps
June 29th, 2007, 03:56 PM
I don't know Weir from Lost City. But I'm about to take the time to watch it. Weir for me is never kept in character. She's literally all over the place and not sure what she's doing. Most of the time I just saw her as prejudice. It seemed to me when it came to the more "primitive" people they really didn't matter to her. The Brotherhood, even when they C4 in exchange for food and she was livid with John for taking that initiative, The Genii really didn't mean anything to her. Meaning, I would just find these people someone to be monitored if I gave them C4. And when they found out about the Genii, it still didn't seem like she felt they were a threat. I just don't get it. It's that whole over-estimating their abilities thing that always bothered me. It wasn't until she really needed something as seen in The Seige II or III, did we see her associate with them. And this is after finding out they're fairly advanced.

But when it came to people in Condemned, Inferno, and later Progeny these people were worth her time. To her if they are ancient related or able to survive the wraith those are the people she will deem worthy to talk to. Other's she could give a flying lick about. They mean nothing, the teams will associate with the boring village people, she'll only talk to the ones who are viable. And when their no longer viable as seen with Inferno, she dumps them on a piece of land like villagers and they become puppy chow. It was when she said: I think I was really done with her when I heard this, while her attitude in NML and Misbegotten irked me to know end. It just showed so much to me. When it comes to diplomatic ties, most leaders will be meet with other leaders in conference, because it's a sign of respect. Weir doesn't do that, only the ones that are "worth" something to her does she see viable.

That's why I always thought if she was working on a Peggy militia to make SGA semi-independent of Earth and working with planetary leaders who want the end of the wraith---if only for man power and exchange of information and connections she would be viable. But for 3 years all I felt Weir achieved was the mastery of solitaire. And this is just one of the ALL around minor problems I had with the character. I've already listed specifi eps in which I just wanted her gone.

Thats exactly it. She was just such a random character that she needed something more the try and stabilise that. I wonder if thats what they are trying to achieve with this so far, unknown arc in which she is a major player. Its confusing at times. Other times she is just so obnoxious that I want to throw something at the screen. For example, most people wont see it, but the hostility between Caldwell and Weir was instigated by Weir.

She held it against Caldwell because Landry and co wanted to put Caldwell in control of the military contingent on Atlantis, and then it went downhill from there, which is where the 'my ship, butt out' scene comes in. That episode did Weir no favours with me. She has absolutely no idea how to run a proper military contingent on a starship, and there is a reason that people like Caldwell are given those commands. Its funny, most people didnt like Caldwell/Goa'uld because he was mean to Weir. I liked him because he was restrained enough to not tell the self righteous "The IOA and the President Like Me" leader of Atlantis where to get off.

Ok, Rant Out - LOL!

scifi_lemon
June 29th, 2007, 09:36 PM
Thats exactly it. She was just such a random character that she needed something more the try and stabilise that. I wonder if thats what they are trying to achieve with this so far, unknown arc in which she is a major player. Its confusing at times. Other times she is just so obnoxious that I want to throw something at the screen. For example, most people wont see it, but the hostility between Caldwell and Weir was instigated by Weir.

She held it against Caldwell because Landry and co wanted to put Caldwell in control of the military contingent on Atlantis, and then it went downhill from there, which is where the 'my ship, butt out' scene comes in. That episode did Weir no favours with me. She has absolutely no idea how to run a proper military contingent on a starship, and there is a reason that people like Caldwell are given those commands. Its funny, most people didnt like Caldwell/Goa'uld because he was mean to Weir. I liked him because he was restrained enough to not tell the self righteous "The IOA and the President Like Me" leader of Atlantis where to get off.

Ok, Rant Out - LOL!

ITA. Another think I didn't like about her is the fact that she was inconsitant. In the ep 'The Game' I disliked her to no ends. Weir was acting like a naggy mom instead of a dilpomat and leader. When she said "And it's all because of your stupid compition" or whatever when she had said ealier that it wasn't their fault because they "didn't mean for that to happen and were trying to help." Arrg!

[/rant]

Cautious Explorer
June 30th, 2007, 08:08 AM
ITA. Another think I didn't like about her is the fact that she was inconsitant. In the ep 'The Game' I disliked her to no ends. Weir was acting like a naggy mom instead of a dilpomat and leader. When she said "And it's all because of your stupid compition" or whatever when she had said ealier that it wasn't their fault because they "didn't mean for that to happen and were trying to help." Arrg!

[/rant]

I have to agree with you there. I think by this point the writers had already given up on Weir and couldn't be bothered to write her in any consistent way. If the ultimate goal was to bring the two societies to the brink of war without a negotiated truce, then the story would have been better served to have the team unable to reach Atlantis for some reason. Then it's realistic that it's up to Sheppard and McKay to reach a solution on their own.

It's bothered me before when Weir would chastise Sheppard for striking bad bargains (Underground for instance), while the great negotiator sat in the city giving no input. I thought we would finally see her negotiating skills in the game, when all parties came to the table in Atlantis. Instead, she barely tried, then washed her hands of the whole thing. Seems like the writers created a major character with a talent/profession that they were either unprepared for or uninterested in writing into the show.

scifi_lemon
June 30th, 2007, 10:07 AM
I have to agree with you there. I think by this point the writers had already given up on Weir and couldn't be bothered to write her in any consistent way. If the ultimate goal was to bring the two societies to the brink of war without a negotiated truce, then the story would have been better served to have the team unable to reach Atlantis for some reason. Then it's realistic that it's up to Sheppard and McKay to reach a solution on their own.

It's bothered me before when Weir would chastise Sheppard for striking bad bargains (Underground for instance), while the great negotiator sat in the city giving no input. I thought we would finally see her negotiating skills in the game, when all parties came to the table in Atlantis. Instead, she barely tried, then washed her hands of the whole thing. Seems like the writers created a major character with a talent/profession that they were either unprepared for or uninterested in writing into the show.

Or they just weren't that good at writing it. To be honest, Weir's performance/lines in the Game tainted my enjoyment of the Game. I like your version much better. ;)

Mitchell82
June 30th, 2007, 04:40 PM
Or they just weren't that good at writing it. To be honest, Weir's performance/lines in the Game tainted my enjoyment of the Game. I like your version much better. ;)

She was quite annoying in the Game, but I still love that ep. Her character is just to inconsistant.

scifi_lemon
June 30th, 2007, 04:56 PM
She was quite annoying in the Game, but I still love that ep. Her character is just to inconsistant.

ITA. It would have been better if she had been in less scenes though ;)

elbo
June 30th, 2007, 10:23 PM
"The Game", is one of the many examples in which Weir is very present in the show, without actually doing something to impact the story, other than making Shepp and Rodney feeling guilty, which wasn't really necesarely because they were already feeling as guilty as it is humanly possibly.

I also find Weir negociation/diplomacy skills a joke, when they should be their strong point. In the very few cases in which those skills are actualy requierd, like in "Condammned" or "Progeny", i don't see in Weir the flexibility that came with the job, but actually a very rigid person, like usual, where all societies should be ruled according with her system of belives, to be worthy of her presence.

Celcool
July 1st, 2007, 12:37 AM
I would hope so ("normal" being for me Elizabeth back in charge and Carson back) but knowing tptb I don't have much hope for that to happen.

maxbo
July 1st, 2007, 04:51 AM
Actually in regards to The Game, I understood why the writers went the route they did. At first I had wondered what was going on like Maxbo said and what you said. But then I realized that Sheppard and McKay were the respective leaders oracles. No matter what Weir would say or do it would mean nothing because they would ONLY listen to their oracles. It was the oracles that got them to where they were, and pretty much rescued them from either starvation or squallor. Even if the Oracles were to say "speak to my representative" ie Weir, it wouldn't matter, these people only saw McKay or Shep as their god.

Later when the people found out that McKay and Shep were just human and they weren't really oracles, where the guy leader was increased the military or some such. At that point the leaders may have spoken to Weir, but their hatred for each other would make that a waste, not to mention they were still loyal to those who helped them (Weir again would lose any footing). This was towards the end of the episode.

I can't see how Weir's expertise can compete with god-like allegiance, actually it just never would. So The Game made sense to me, although at first I did have a slight problem. I'll just never really understand The Tower or the fact there was never a military militia of allied people added to the fight against the wraith. There were plenty of side stories for Weir that fell through. Oh well...what's done is done. She's out, and Carter's in!


I understand that The Game was written in such a way as to force the viewer to see that Sheppard and Rodney were the only ones who could get through to the warring leaders and that's why I had a problem with that episode. Why was it written that way? IMO, it wasn't written that way because the writers thought it made for a more compelling istory - no, I believe it was because it was easier to write for Rodney and Sheppard rather than write for Elizabeth.

The Game's Sheppard and Rodney focus wouldn't have been so bad if Sheppard and Rodney had been written well. Instead they were written as two bickering little boys - even after they realized the gravity of the situation so, the writer's didn't do their characters any favors by focusing on them in this episode.

The Game was an example of "normal" that I hope we don't see for Season 4 because if TPTB had not relied on 'easy' and had instead wrote what made sense, then The Game could have been so much better than it was.


S5 could find Sam Carter off on some intense, top-secret mission with the former SG-1 while John is promoted to full bird colonel and gets Sam's position. *shrug* And I'm sure there'd be many people who would find that "normal."

No, I doubt that many viewers would find Sheppard getting Sam's new position "normal" because that would mean that he would be the overall leader of SGA and not just its military leader. Even as early as Rising, it was established that the military leader (Sumner) was not the overall leader of Atlantis, so seeing Sheppard stuck behind a desk wouldn't be normal for SGA.


ITA. Another think I didn't like about her is the fact that she was inconsitant. In the ep 'The Game' I disliked her to no ends. Weir was acting like a naggy mom instead of a dilpomat and leader. When she said "And it's all because of your stupid compition" or whatever when she had said ealier that it wasn't their fault because they "didn't mean for that to happen and were trying to help." Arrg![/rant]

Yes, Elizabeth was inconsistent because she was written inconsistently. I've long believed that the writers never had a clear plan for the character and it showed. They conceived a character that sounded cool, but that they also found too difficult to write for, so instead of hunkering down to hammer out how to make her work within the SGA environment, all too often, they sacrificed her to the plot. Hence the inconsistency.



I have to agree with you there. I think by this point the writers had already given up on Weir and couldn't be bothered to write her in any consistent way. If the ultimate goal was to bring the two societies to the brink of war without a negotiated truce, then the story would have been better served to have the team unable to reach Atlantis for some reason. Then it's realistic that it's up to Sheppard and McKay to reach a solution on their own.

It's bothered me before when Weir would chastise Sheppard for striking bad bargains (Underground for instance), while the great negotiator sat in the city giving no input. I thought we would finally see her negotiating skills in the game, when all parties came to the table in Atlantis. Instead, she barely tried, then washed her hands of the whole thing. Seems like the writers created a major character with a talent/profession that they were either unprepared for or uninterested in writing into the show.


Yes, I also believe that the writers had given up on Elizabeth by the time The Game was written and that episode suffered for it. There was so much that could've been touched on that was sacrificed for a few yuks and explosions.


ITA. It would have been better if she had been in less scenes though ;)

I disagree, I believe The Game would have been better if the writers had written Elizabeth, the expert negotiator, better.


"The Game", is one of the many examples in which Weir is very present in the show, without actually doing something to impact the story, other than making Shepp and Rodney feeling guilty, which wasn't really necesarely because they were already feeling as guilty as it is humanly possibly.

I also find Weir negociation/diplomacy skills a joke, when they should be their strong point. In the very few cases in which those skills are actualy requierd, like in "Condammned" or "Progeny", i don't see in Weir the flexibility that came with the job, but actually a very rigid person, like usual, where all societies should be ruled according with her system of belives, to be worthy of her presence.


And why are Elizabeth's negotiation/diplomacy skills a joke? Oh, yes, the writing. The writing for a character can't be overlooked when discussing why a character doesn't live up his/her potential. The basics were in place to craft a compelling character, however, the writing fell short.

vaberella
July 1st, 2007, 05:39 AM
I understand that The Game was written in such a way as to force the viewer to see that Sheppard and Rodney were the only ones who could get through to the warring leaders and that's why I had a problem with that episode. Why was it written that way? IMO, it wasn't written that way because the writers thought it made for a more compelling istory - no, I believe it was because it was easier to write for Rodney and Sheppard rather than write for Elizabeth.

The Game's Sheppard and Rodney focus wouldn't have been so bad if Sheppard and Rodney had been written well. Instead they were written as two bickering little boys - even after they realized the gravity of the situation so, the writer's didn't do their characters any favors by focusing on them in this episode.

The Game was an example of "normal" that I hope we don't see for Season 4 because if TPTB had not relied on 'easy' and had instead wrote what made sense, then The Game could have been so much better than it was.
To your question and statement in bold, I'd have to disagree with you. At this point I felt the whole thing was really to bring to light the negligence and omnipotence of the Ancients. Really, I just thought Rodney and Shep expressed that fairly well in regards to what they did and also it was further defined by Zelenka/Lorne's addiction to program within the Ancient database.

That's where I was coming from and what I was seeing. I don't think the writers find it easier to write for Weir than Sheppard or Rodney, what the problem is to encompass all they want too in a realistic fashion which falls short at times. I have said in the past, there are times Weir has been alright. I think in this instance in paticular the writing was done to push the story to the forefront.

Again, Weir's inability to broker a deal made sense because of who John and Rodney represented to those people. I think what we're expected to see was also the fact that she adores the ground Ancients crap on. She adores them, and she has a problem of seeing them in a poor light and playing with people's lives as she did. Which is another problem I have with this character, her unconditional love of the Ancients. But that's for another discussion. Her negotiating was secondary and really useless anyway, it would have been great to hear her say that though.

Anyone's voice is meaning less when their gods are next to them. Do you think I'd listen to anything the Pope had to say if God decided to stop by and give me a chat? I think not.

As for John/Rodney at this point this is all I can hope to expect. I've already brought up their annoying childlike behaviour as seen in McKay and Mrs. Miller and John annoying Mckay over his name. It's something that I find irksome but it's done. I do feel however that towards the end that John and Rodney were actually far more mature about it when they realized people could be eradicated because of their stupidity, so I'll have to disagree on that end.

Overall I think Weir did fall through a little on her negotiating ability, since I can see what is so annoying to many of you. But really in regards to the game, her negotiating ability would be for naught because they wouldn't give her the time of day anyway. So it made sense to the overall plot line and story.

Cautious Explorer
July 1st, 2007, 08:35 AM
To your question and statement in bold, I'd have to disagree with you. At this point I felt the whole thing was really to bring to light the negligence and omnipotence of the Ancients. Really, I just thought Rodney and Shep expressed that fairly well in regards to what they did and also it was further defined by Zelenka/Lorne's addiction to program within the Ancient database.

That's where I was coming from and what I was seeing. I don't think the writers find it easier to write for Weir than Sheppard or Rodney, what the problem is to encompass all they want too in a realistic fashion which falls short at times. I have said in the past, there are times Weir has been alright. I think in this instance in paticular the writing was done to push the story to the forefront.

Again, Weir's inability to broker a deal made sense because of who John and Rodney represented to those people. I think what we're expected to see was also the fact that she adores the ground Ancients crap on. She adores them, and she has a problem of seeing them in a poor light and playing with people's lives as she did. Which is another problem I have with this character, her unconditional love of the Ancients. But that's for another discussion. Her negotiating was secondary and really useless anyway, it would have been great to hear her say that though.

Anyone's voice is meaning less when their gods are next to them. Do you think I'd listen to anything the Pope had to say if God decided to stop by and give me a chat? I think not.
As for John/Rodney at this point this is all I can hope to expect. I've already brought up their annoying childlike behaviour as seen in McKay and Mrs. Miller and John annoying Mckay over his name. It's something that I find irksome but it's done. I do feel however that towards the end that John and Rodney were actually far more mature about it when they realized people could be eradicated because of their stupidity, so I'll have to disagree on that end.

Overall I think Weir did fall through a little on her negotiating ability, since I can see what is so annoying to many of you. But really in regards to the game, her negotiating ability would be for naught because they wouldn't give her the time of day anyway. So it made sense to the overall plot line and story.

But Weir wasn't trying to negotiate between cultures listening to gods she couldn't hope to have any influence over. She was negotiating between people who believed in the wisdom of Sheppard and McKay. This is a person who supposedly brokers deals between heads of state and she can't negotiate a truce between two of her closest friends? Perhaps the point of the episode wasn't to show Weir's abilities at negotiating. But her abilities both as a diplomat and a leader were so entirely lacking that I found it distracting. It just wasn't realistic.

vaberella
July 1st, 2007, 09:02 AM
But Weir wasn't trying to negotiate between cultures listening to gods she couldn't hope to have any influence over. She was negotiating between people who believed in the wisdom of Sheppard and McKay. This is a person who supposedly brokers deals between heads of state and she can't negotiate a truce between two of her closest friends? Perhaps the point of the episode wasn't to show Weir's abilities at negotiating. But her abilities both as a diplomat and a leader were so entirely lacking that I found it distracting. It just wasn't realistic.

Yes she was. Sheppard and McKay were more than just Shaman's. These were Oracles
a person or persons considered to be the source of wise counsel or prophetic opinion; an infallible authority, usually spiritual in nature. It can also be a prediction of the future, from deities, that is spoken through another object or life-form.

How does Weir compare to the infallible? Seriously? Sheppard and McKay for all these people new during the early negotiating were the ones to help them survive. To evolve and redevelop themselves as sustainable and powerful communities. One built on military prowess and the other on technological development. In any event it was Sheppard and McKay's "guidance" and "wisdom" which got them there. Nothing and really absolutely nothing Weir could say would help the situation. The only time the leaders seemed to think twice was when Sheppard and McKay explained the situation and they were told the truth, but even then, they still had a strong devotion to each respective "oracle".

--------------------------------------------------------------------------

As for brokering a deal between friends, what for?! It wouldn't work...these people may believe in the "oracles" at that point, but they also were products of years of "oracle" influence and knew how their "oracles" thought. Even if John and McKay agreed to the deal to appease Weir and get these leaders to agree, the leaders would know better as they proved to do within the episode. You did notice that both leaders went against their "oracles" towards the end. They may have still respected their "oracles" and felt some devotion...but in the end they were going to do what they wanted since they knew that McKay and Sheppard were like them and not some dieties. So Weir still couldn't do anything and would have her hands tied.

In this ep, I don't blame Weir too much here.

Ugh...me of all people defending Weir, but meh, I've always said there are some eps she's not so bad. I never found her negotiating skills paticularly good---actually they're down right trash, but in this ep, I do feel there wasn't much she could do.

But to add to the above, I think this relates perfectly to what I say about Weir's prejudice. You see these people are "primitives" she doesn't care a lick about their problems. Compare the amount of time she spent trying to get Oberoth to see it her way, and yet she didn't even really bother with these two people who would basically annihilate each other and all due to those who work under her who lacked foresight and some form of care. All in all, I had issues with her performance, but this is part and parcel to Weir's character in many instances. The "primitive" importance versus the "developed/advanced" importance.

But again one must remember that in this instance she also had no chance because these people did look onto Sheppard/McKay as "infallible".

maxbo
July 1st, 2007, 09:18 AM
To your question and statement in bold, I'd have to disagree with you. At this point I felt the whole thing was really to bring to light the negligence and omnipotence of the Ancients. Really, I just thought Rodney and Shep expressed that fairly well in regards to what they did and also it was further defined by Zelenka/Lorne's addiction to program within the Ancient database.

But, that's just it - they didn't hightlight those points because by focusing on Rodney and Sheppard's bickering and lack of negotiating experience, they trivialized a serious situation, IMO. By the way, I enjoyed Zelenka and Lorne's bickering a lot more than Rodney and Sheppard's here, which made Rodney and Sheppard's continued bickering even more annoying because it was redundant.


That's where I was coming from and what I was seeing. I don't think the writers find it easier to write for Weir than Sheppard or Rodney, what the problem is to encompass all they want too in a realistic fashion which falls short at times. I have said in the past, there are times Weir has been alright. I think in this instance in paticular the writing was done to push the story to the forefront.

Hmmm, I think you meant to say that you don't think the writers find it easier to write for Sheppard or Rodney than for Weir. Anyway, I disagree, not only because of what I've seen for 3 seasons, but also because there's been at least one admission that the writers find Rodney, especially, easy to write.

I know that we, as SGA viewers, have to resign ourselves to the fact that SGA is a plot-driven series, however, there is no reason why the writers should totally give up trying to stay true to the characters. How difficult would it have been for the writers to sit down and plot out how an experienced negotiator would've handled this situation and then write Sheppard and Rodney as passing that information on to their respective followers? I wouldn't be surprised if fanfic writers have already plotted out likely scenarios. Hell, I'm not even a writer and I could have come up with something that made more sense than what I saw on screen.


Again, Weir's inability to broker a deal made sense because of who John and Rodney represented to those people. I think what we're expected to see was also the fact that she adores the ground Ancients crap on. She adores them, and she has a problem of seeing them in a poor light and playing with people's lives as she did. Which is another problem I have with this character, her unconditional love of the Ancients. But that's for another discussion. Her negotiating was secondary and really useless anyway, it would have been great to hear her say that though.

Okay, there are two issues here - one, the lazy writing for Elizabeth, which sidelined her in The Game and, two, what I consider an interesting character flaw for Elizabeth - her love of all things ancient.

Starting with the lazy writing, Elizabeth could have brokered a deal if, during the negotiations, the writers had written her at the table with Rodney and John and then had Rodney and John tell their people to follow Elizabeth's suggestions. Easy fix. The writers controlled this storyline, not the characters.

As for Elizabeth's adoration of the ancients, I consider this a character flaw that could have been more interesting if the writers had followed up on it more.


Anyone's voice is meaning less when their gods are next to them. Do you think I'd listen to anything the Pope had to say if God decided to stop by and give me a chat? I think not.

But, you would probably listen to the Pope if God told you to listen to the Pope.


As for John/Rodney at this point this is all I can hope to expect. I've already brought up their annoying childlike behaviour as seen in McKay and Mrs. Miller and John annoying Mckay over his name. It's something that I find irksome but it's done. I do feel however that towards the end that John and Rodney were actually far more mature about it when they realized people could be eradicated because of their stupidity, so I'll have to disagree on that end.

Yes, Sheppard and Rodney become two small children when they are together and when done well, it complements the storyline nicely, however, when overdone, then it can detract from the storyline. In The Game, their bickering was distracting and I felt that it went on so long that by the time they finally got it - it was too late to salvage the storyline for me.


Overall I think Weir did fall through a little on her negotiating ability, since I can see what is so annoying to many of you. But really in regards to the game, her negotiating ability would be for naught because they wouldn't give her the time of day anyway. So it made sense to the overall plot line and story.

And, that's the main problem I had with this episode - the overall plotline was so heavily skewed as to try to force the viewer to believe that it was plausible that Rodney and Sheppard would be allowed to find a solution to this very serious situation that was far outside of their area of expertise.

One of the best things I've heard from TPTB, so far, is the admission that writing 40 episodes a season was too much for them so maybe, just maybe, in Season 4, I won't see any "normal" episodes like The Game, where the too-difficult-to-write characters are sacrificed for the plot. *crosses fingers, toes, eyes, etc.*

bluealien
July 1st, 2007, 10:12 AM
Well the writers seem to think we love all the banter between John and Rodney, which is great when it's used wisely, but unfortunately the writers seem to think they are on to a great thing and gave us an overdose of this in season three, to the detriment of the stories.


Joe F said in London last year that a lot had complained about the lack of the John/Rodney banter in season two :eek: so it looks like they were trying to make up for it in season three. The Game was a big disappointment as the whole situation was handled far too lightly IMO. I really didnt appreciate Rodny and John acting like bickering kids and Weir being the Mommy figure having to tell them off... this is not how I want to see the Military Head of Atlantis or the Chief scientist behave. I don't know whether I would have enjoyed having Weir participate more as I have pretty much given up on her negotiating skills. Some is due to the writing but its also her delivery that annoys me... is she really ment to come across as arogant as she sounds at times. All the cast have received bad writing but don't tend to annoy me as much as Weir. I think the lighted hearted banter and bickering should have ended the moment they found out it was real people they were dealing with and that lives were at stake because of them.

But it never really came across like this .. there needed to be more urgency and seriousness in the ep and I really hope we don't see anymore of this kind of behaviour in season five.. I want to see the strong military commander from season one.. and not some jeuvenile bickering and face pulling from someone in Johns position. If it is done properly as in Echoes it can be great but when over done like in Progeny and The Game then it just detracts from the story.

I think with Carter at the helm we won't see as much of this kind of behaviour as John will have to act in a more military way around her and won't get the same slack that Weir gave him. I hope the new direction gives us less of the Rodney and John show that we got in season three and more of the entire cast, and concentrates on serious and gritty storylines (which from recent spoilers is looking promising) and handles them accordingly.

vaberella
July 1st, 2007, 10:52 AM
But, that's just it - they didn't hightlight those points because by focusing on Rodney and Sheppard's bickering and lack of negotiating experience, they trivialized a serious situation, IMO. By the way, I enjoyed Zelenka and Lorne's bickering a lot more than Rodney and Sheppard's here, which made Rodney and Sheppard's continued bickering even more annoying because it was redundant.

I'll accept this, but I still got that meaning when watching the ep, so I wasn't too distracted by their bickering. I'm annoyed by it and really don't want to see too much McShep on screen if I have to deal with that attitude, but it didn't take away from what I thought was the overall theme.




Hmmm, I think you meant to say that you don't think the writers find it easier to write for Sheppard or Rodney than for Weir. Anyway, I disagree, not only because of what I've seen for 3 seasons, but also because there's been at least one admission that the writers find Rodney, especially, easy to write.

Which I did. Thanks. Yes, they've been saying they find Rodney easier to write. But I don't think they've done so much better for the other characters than for Weir. I found John to be rather mundane character at times, and I've said as much and he's only been redeemed from it being a similar situation as Weir because he's an actionary character which Weir is not. As for Rodney, yes they find him easier to write, but he hasn't evolved much from S1. Sure here and there they've done changes, I will always stand by MMM as being the ep where McKay is no longer having an unhealthy infatuation with Carter. But overall when taking the character as a whole, he's just easier to write personality wise and getting us the belligerant petulant scientist. But as real person we had a quick attempt of it in Tao of Rodney (which I liked). But really Weir is not at the bottom of the list alone. The character mistakes and inconsistencies is just more prevalent and often. McKay has remained consistent but without being too fleshed out.


I know that we, as SGA viewers, have to resign ourselves to the fact that SGA is a plot-driven series, however, there is no reason why the writers should totally give up trying to stay true to the characters. How difficult would it have been for the writers to sit down and plot out how an experienced negotiator would've handled this situation and then write Sheppard and Rodney as passing that information on to their respective followers? I wouldn't be surprised if fanfic writers have already plotted out likely scenarios. Hell, I'm not even a writer and I could have come up with something that made more sense than what I saw on scene.

I see what you're saying. But again they have said they were dealing with two shows and I have to say S2 and S3 were not too much better than S1 for character development. My favorite was S2, but that's all because of the Wraith which were great in S2. Anyway, I think at times they falter. Lastly they probably were trying to add dimension but it just fell through. I'm not trying to excuse their failure but in The Game, I felt the writers did alright. I again can't say that Weir was all bad and poor negotiator, I saw that in Progeny. I found in the Game she did alright, not great but alright, and overall I thought the writers did a pretty good execution of it. I do agree, as I said that it wasn't the best negotiating but Weir is just prejudice and she's shown that persona many times in the past, this seemed right along her alley, but again as I said, there wasn't much she could do when looking at her position and the leaders perspective.




Okay, there are two issues here - one, the lazy writing for Elizabeth, which sidelined her in The Game and, two, what I consider an interesting character flaw for Elizabeth - her love of all things ancient.
I'm not seeing her as of importance in The Game, and I think the writers really didn't want to focus on that. They wanted a way to bring the people to Atlantis and what not, so they included Weir. But to move away from the idea of plot device and ending the conversation...I do think that the negotiating wasn't of the greatest importance it was the games the Ancients played with the lives of the people, testing that aspect of it, and of course showing how negligent they were in the past and probably connecting it to the wraith development situation touched on in S1.


Starting with the lazy writing, Elizabeth could have brokered a deal if, during the negotiations, the writers had written her at the table with Rodney and John and then had Rodney and John tell their people to follow Elizabeth's suggestions. Easy fix. The writers controlled this storyline, not the characters.
But you forget at this point, the people had their own ideas of what was going on. McKay and Shep explained who they were and their side. That they were far from "oracles". As I said, they still felt some devotion but the idealising that was done in the past wasn't going to happen when the truth was put down on the table and the situation then rectified. I again felt this worked out true to form. Both the leaders when and exacerbated the situation. Plus, taking into account John's conversation with his leader, the leader knew full well that John didn't think it was a good idea and he was picked and basically modeled after John's own ideology as was McKay and his leader. Remember in the beginning of the ep, they were created and made in the image that John and McKay chose. I mean you could tell John and McKay to get back on the machine and mess around some more, but at this point Weir didn't want anyone messing with the program.


As for Elizabeth's adoration of the ancients, I consider this a character flaw that could have been more interesting if the writers had followed up on it more.
Not me, not a fan of the Ancients and found them to be pests, so I wouldn't care too much to see her adoration flounder--not that it seems it could considering .




But, you would probably listen to the Pope if God told you to listen to the Pope.
Unlikely, I'm a heathen. ;)




Yes, Sheppard and Rodney become two small children when they are together and when done well, it complements the storyline nicely, however, when overdone, then it can detract from the storyline. In The Game, their bickering was distracting and I felt that it went on so long that by the time they finally got it - it was too late to salvage the storyline for me.
I noticed it but it wasn't distracting to me, and I find it annoying most of the time..actually thinking about it, now---all the time. I like when they work together and a bit of verbal judo, besides they irritate me and I guess I've learned to tune them out like a mother tunes out her ever-questioning 5 year old.




And, that's the main problem I had with this episode - the overall plotline was so heavily skewed as to try to force the viewer to believe that it was plausible that Rodney and Sheppard would be allowed to find a solution to this very serious situation that was far outside of their area of expertise.

One of the best things I've heard from TPTB, so far, is the admission that writing 40 episodes a season was too much for them so maybe, just maybe, in Season 4, I won't see any "normal" episodes like The Game, where the too-difficult-to-write characters are sacrificed for the plot. *crosses fingers, toes, eyes, etc.*

Actually I don't find it a maybe, I find it definite. However, if I am proven wrong, I will of course be the first to complain about it in the ep thread as I have in the past. I didn't find it skewed and I felt the resolution that the Ex came up with was to put the fear of death and destruction through military warfare---that's within John's line, if anything. Negotiating was out the window, so you attack their sense of morality, ethics, and emotional sensibilities. It worked.

vaberella
July 1st, 2007, 11:06 AM
Well the writers seem to think we love all the banter between John and Rodney, which is great when it's used wisely, but unfortunately the writers seem to think they are on to a great thing and gave us an overdose of this in season three, to the detriment of the stories.


Joe F said in London last year that a lot had complained about the lack of the John/Rodney banter in season two :eek: so it looks like they were trying to make up for it in season three. The Game was a big disappointment as the whole situation was handled far too lightly IMO. I really didnt appreciate Rodny and John acting like bickering kids and Weir being the Mommy figure having to tell them off... this is not how I want to see the Military Head of Atlantis or the Chief scientist behave. I don't know whether I would have enjoyed having Weir participate more as I have pretty much given up on her negotiating skills. Some is due to the writing but its also her delivery that annoys me... is she really ment to come across as arogant as she sounds at times. All the cast have received bad writing but don't tend to annoy me as much as Weir. I think the lighted hearted banter and bickering should have ended the moment they found out it was real people they were dealing with and that lives were at stake because of them.

But it never really came across like this .. there needed to be more urgency and seriousness in the ep and I really hope we don't see anymore of this kind of behaviour in season five.. I want to see the strong military commander from season one.. and not some jeuvenile bickering and face pulling from someone in Johns position. If it is done properly as in Echoes it can be great but when over done like in Progeny and The Game then it just detracts from the story.

I think with Carter at the helm we won't see as much of this kind of behaviour as John will have to act in a more military way around her and won't get the same slack that Weir gave him. I hope the new direction gives us less of the Rodney and John show that we got in season three and more of the entire cast, and concentrates on serious and gritty storylines (which from recent spoilers is looking promising) and handles them accordingly.

I agres with all this. I have a strong belief that we can expect some great writing in S4 and hopefully I can only pray a strong sense of maturity out of these men. They are grown ass men with huge responbilities, for them to be acting like 5 year olds whether to watch Transformers of Thundercats (I'll choose Transformers) is ridiculous.

I can see us getting a really mature feel to the show. I can handle a few tossed witty comments and maybe a bit of childish bantering (ugh! :S) but I really want some raw and deep story telling and profound acting. And from what JM has put in his blog we can expect this. So we'll get emotional Shep and cocky shep, and probably a bit of angst and dramatic Shep. The same for Rodney.

I'm happy about that. :)

prion
July 1st, 2007, 01:19 PM
. For example, most people wont see it, but the hostility between Caldwell and Weir was instigated by Weir.

She held it against Caldwell because Landry and co wanted to put Caldwell in control of the military contingent on Atlantis, and then it went downhill from there, which is where the 'my ship, butt out' scene comes in. That episode did Weir no favours with me. She has absolutely no idea how to run a proper military contingent on a starship, and there is a reason that people like Caldwell are given those commands. Its funny, most people didnt like Caldwell/Goa'uld because he was mean to Weir. I liked him because he was restrained enough to not tell the self righteous "The IOA and the President Like Me" leader of Atlantis where to get off.

Ok, Rant Out - LOL!

She was wary of Caldwell. TPTB back on earth just willy nilly decided they'd slot in their OWN military comander without even consulting her. Most people would get ticked off at that.



It's bothered me before when Weir would chastise Sheppard for striking bad bargains (Underground for instance), while the great negotiator sat in the city giving no input. I thought we would finally see her negotiating skills in the game, when all parties came to the table in Atlantis. Instead, she barely tried, then washed her hands of the whole thing. Seems like the writers created a major character with a talent/profession that they were either unprepared for or uninterested in writing into the show.

Well, Shepaprd did strike the deal on a first contact. The biggest flaw with Weir was the writers. They create the character and then, what? It's obvious the writers pretty much know squat about negotiations. I still like Weir, despite her faults, and had looked forward to actual development in season 4, until they dropped that bombshell they were getting rid of her.

parisindy
July 1st, 2007, 04:38 PM
Well, Shepaprd did strike the deal on a first contact. The biggest flaw with Weir was the writers. They create the character and then, what? It's obvious the writers pretty much know squat about negotiations. I still like Weir, despite her faults, and had looked forward to actual development in season 4, until they dropped that bombshell they were getting rid of her.

agreed... i think you need some green for that

vaberella
July 1st, 2007, 04:49 PM
Well, Shepaprd did strike the deal on a first contact. The biggest flaw with Weir was the writers. They create the character and then, what? It's obvious the writers pretty much know squat about negotiations. I still like Weir, despite her faults, and had looked forward to actual development in season 4, until they dropped that bombshell they were getting rid of her.

This is what I've complained about. I never thought the writers didn't understand how to write for women. I just felt they didn't know how to write for the occupation. Sex having nothing to do with the situation.

They have an idea for the character, and they have a some-what questionable knowledge of the occupation, at times they just don't work on screen for me. But it could just be the characters persona doesn't fit what a negotiator would do mainly do to the way they want the character to appear (emotionally connected to her people and what not)----as a negotiator emotion is rarely within the equation you must be nuetral and as unbiased as possible to be able to obtain the best possible result. She's rarely unconnected. And so the writers falter on that end.

Even if S4 has no development for Weir and her character is essentially gone, well then there is a chance for the other actors to benefit and they need that kind of benefit. They've already laid down the ground work for some great writing, so I have hope they'll have more. Especially after they told us why much of the reasons why the writing was lackluster.

Mitchell82
July 1st, 2007, 06:16 PM
ITA. It would have been better if she had been in less scenes though ;)

Agreed. I like Weir I really do but she wasnt a very well developed character.

sanssong
July 1st, 2007, 06:32 PM
Russel T. Davies the show runner for the new Doctor Who series (the ones in the last couple years) said the secret of his success was not to be influenced by the online fans.

IMO we the online fans don't represent fast majority of people who watch the show but don't post online


Yes! Exactly! We DON'T represent the majority by any stretch. Honestly, it defies logic that the people who depend on this show for their livelyhood would get rid of a character who is loved by the majority of it's fans. So the unsaid truth in this entire situation is that Weir was not loved and that most fans are indifferent to her departure.

The idea that fan polls here or anywhere else should count for anything is patently ridiculous. I've said this for months.

Case in point. I was talking to a casual SG fan at work the other day who doesn't follow online fandom and I told her of the cast changes. She was not sorry to see Weir go and was very excited that Sam was coming to take her place.

IMO normal is the way the cast will be for season 4. I can't think of any reason that AT wouldn't want to come back for season 5 - she's an actress who likes to work. Unless she just becomes too expensive, I don't see her going anywhere. Bringing either Weir or Carson back for the long term in S5 would be like - as someone mentioned before- saying they were wrong to have them gotten rid of them in the first place. I don't see it happening. The show is moving on without these characters and I for one think it's for the best.

sanssong
July 1st, 2007, 07:00 PM
Thats exactly it. She was just such a random character that she needed something more the try and stabilise that. I wonder if thats what they are trying to achieve with this so far, unknown arc in which she is a major player. Its confusing at times. Other times she is just so obnoxious that I want to throw something at the screen. For example, most people wont see it, but the hostility between Caldwell and Weir was instigated by Weir.

Oh, boy, I thought I was the only one on the planet who saw that! I couldn't believe how completely unprofessional she behaved with Caldwell everytime she dealt with him. She was rude and snarky- threatening him and getting in his face for no reason other than she was intimidated by him. He was a military guy with TONS of experience doing his job and all she did was oppose him and insult him. It was way out of line for her and it made her look petty.

sanssong
July 1st, 2007, 07:16 PM
They have an idea for the character, and they have a some-what questionable knowledge of the occupation, at times they just don't work on screen for me. But it could just be the characters persona doesn't fit what a negotiator would do mainly do to the way they want the character to appear (emotionally connected to her people and what not)----as a negotiator emotion is rarely within the equation you must be nuetral and as unbiased as possible to be able to obtain the best possible result. She's rarely unconnected. And so the writers falter on that end.


I think the idea of a negotiator/civilian admin for Atlantis was one of those things that looked good on paper, but when it came time to write the character and exciting stories with a person like that, it just didnt' work. I agree with Maxbo, I think it was, who said that there was no real justification to keep a civilian leader after S1 was over. She got stuck with a war time job when they were cut off from Earth, but once the link was re-established, she should have gone.

The result of keeping her around was a very erratic ongoing story of a woman who didn't know how to be the leader of a military base. And despite the fact that Sheppard was supposed to be in charge of that aspect of Atlantis, she never let him do it. The writers never really knew how to make her a vital part of the show.

IMO if they go back to trying in S5, the show won't survive.

vaberella
July 2nd, 2007, 12:31 AM
Oh, boy, I thought I was the only one on the planet who saw that! I couldn't believe how completely unprofessional she behaved with Caldwell everytime she dealt with him. She was rude and snarky- threatening him and getting in his face for no reason other than she was intimidated by him. He was a military guy with TONS of experience doing his job and all she did was oppose him and insult him. It was way out of line for her and it made her look petty.

Agreed with SG13 and Sanssong here. The Caldwell situation was definitely a problem for me. This is another aspect of her personality. She is an emasculator. I don't understand her need to do so. That's actually why I liked when Caldwell called her on it in Intruder, but she pushes the issue. Or like in Conversion, I actually never saw any tension between Shep and Caldwell. As a matter of fact Caldwell liked the fact he was promoted and was just following military order, but he also is leader of Daedalus, I think Caldwell would have went anywhere the military sent him. Unfortunately, Weir seemed to be the one to build the walls and create this idea that Caldwell was trying to usurp John's position. I never read that in Caldwell, I do see him as a take charge kind of guy and when given a duty he will fulfill the demands to the best of his ability (he is military afterall) but I do find it was the Weir character that pushed along a false idea of who and what Caldwell was supposed to be. Through her character we get a dodgy military fellow trying to take the job of "our hero", which wasn't the case.

But this kind of talk could get me started on her mistreatment of Teyla---sorry I never could understand Teyla's comment in Sateda about Weir accepting her. :rolleyes: And I could go on and on and on about her need to emasculate---it amplifies her control freak nature and gives justice to her paranoia that men can't "handle a woman in charge".

elbo
July 2nd, 2007, 02:14 AM
I agree with the points expressed here regarding Weir and Caldwell. After she find out that the SGC has a candidate in mind for Atlantis security and that candidate is Caldwell, her atitude towards Caldwell is completly changed. She always takes the opportunity to attack him and build a bubble of hostility, even whe he offers to help. I find especially relevant their dialog in "Conversion":

Caldwell: "I'm not your enemy dr. Weir"
Weir: "And you don't wanna be, belive me"

In these few situations and others, we see how Weir's atention is focused on what she percive to be the real threat/enemy, the military and their assumely hidden goals to undermine her rather the crisis situations in the city or the ship ("Intruder"). And i really hate when this happens.

In SG1, we have the military, the good guys, saving Earth several time form external threats and internal ones. Few times some civilians, Kinsley/Weir (control freaks) type pop in the mix with a hidden agenda trying spoil everyone fun, control the Stargate and put Earth in danger, but SGC/military fixing things everytime.

In SGA, we have/had the same players, but in reverse positions. The military/scientists still good guys doing all the work and saving the day, but the control freak civilian/bureaucrat in charge exploiting the situation in her favor, working for people who are always schemeing like IOA. One must see how these events reduce the potential of the show. Military hands are tied; they have no saying even in naming the military commander of Atlantis, but are just use like drones, senless brutes by IOA and Weir, who put them in front line everything when is a dangerous situatiuon or sent all over the Pegasus Galaxy like Weir's errand boys. Both IOA and Weir, even if they aknowledge the nature of the situation, refuses (unless S4) to give free hand to the Military (not any military, but the one we know from SG1, the stargate one).

No i can't agree with that. Weir character is acceptable in the first season, as she is tied and isolated by Earth and forced to deal with the situation. However everything that was build to her character in the first season, is destroyed in the next 2 seasons, when her character walk in contradiction and refuse to accept that she is not qualified to deal with the situation anymore and step down (by herself). Unfortunately, the Weir character is broken starting with "Intruder". Recognised like a person who accept facts and logic in the first season, she refuses to see the most ovious fact of all : she don't have the material to deal with the situation anymore (i wonder if this have something to do with her emotional breakdown from "Intruder"). The situations in which she puts Earth first (as we see in first season in numerous occasions) are missing, the conflict with the military is increased by her doing instead of atenuating it, and Weir look more like a obsessed person than a rational one. Even the Ancients notice that "she cannot let go". As we see in NML, she aknowlege the situation, that she being to Atlantis is not the result of reason, but because "IOA don't want militarisation" or "fear more the military than some life sucking aliens". She aknowledge this reality, this lack of reasoning and it's fine with it. Sorry this is not first season Weir anymore. I assume that this is not a random event, but the writers trying to justify her presence in S2 and S3, have moved her character in another direction. And i personally hate this new direction and focusing the show in S2 and S3 on Weir's personal drama.

prion
July 2nd, 2007, 03:52 AM
Agreed with SG13 and Sanssong here. The Caldwell situation was definitely a problem for me. This is another aspect of her personality. She is an emasculator. I don't understand her need to do so. That's actually why I liked when Caldwell called her on it in Intruder, but she pushes the issue. Or like in Conversion, I actually never saw any tension between Shep and Caldwell. As a matter of fact Caldwell liked the fact he was promoted and was just following military order, but he also is leader of Daedalus, I think Caldwell would have went anywhere the military sent him. Unfortunately, Weir seemed to be the one to build the walls and create this idea that Caldwell was trying to usurp John's position. I never read that in Caldwell, I do see him as a take charge kind of guy and when given a duty he will fulfill the demands to the best of his ability (he is military afterall) but I do find it was the Weir character that pushed along a false idea of who and what Caldwell was supposed to be. Through her character we get a dodgy military fellow trying to take the job of "our hero", which wasn't the case.

But this kind of talk could get me started on her mistreatment of Teyla---sorry I never could understand Teyla's comment in Sateda about Weir accepting her. :rolleyes: And I could go on and on and on about her need to emasculate---it amplifies her control freak nature and gives justice to her paranoia that men can't "handle a woman in charge".

Weir an emasculator? that's a first. While I suspect the way Weir treated Caldwell was the writers' method of creating conflict (because they don't know how to writer people who negotiate!!), Kavanagh deserved what he got. Anyway, caldwell did do quite a bit of 'taking over' in some respects in "Conversion," making changes left and right and I thought Weir's viewpoint that in by doing so, Caldwell was leaving the implication Sheppard wasn't coming back to command, was correct. Maybe the military is used to it but half the population if not more are civilian/scientific personnel who may view it completely different than military personnel.

Anyway, in watching the SciFi press tour, wish someone had had the guts to ask why Weir had to go. In fact, it was cringeworthy at one point to watch the interviewers go silent. I mean, gads, you get invited to a press tour and can't think of a question?? Bangs head on keyboard. Or maybe they were warned what NOT to ask by Skiffy.

Linzi
July 2nd, 2007, 04:09 AM
Weir an emasculator? that's a first. While I suspect the way Weir treated Caldwell was the writers' method of creating conflict (because they don't know how to writer people who negotiate!!), Kavanagh deserved what he got. Anyway, caldwell did do quite a bit of 'taking over' in some respects in "Conversion," making changes left and right and I thought Weir's viewpoint that in by doing so, Caldwell was leaving the implication Sheppard wasn't coming back to command, was correct. Maybe the military is used to it but half the population if not more are civilian/scientific personnel who may view it completely different than military personnel.

Anyway, in watching the SciFi press tour, wish someone had had the guts to ask why Weir had to go. In fact, it was cringeworthy at one point to watch the interviewers go silent. I mean, gads, you get invited to a press tour and can't think of a question?? Bangs head on keyboard. Or maybe they were warned what NOT to ask by Skiffy.
I can't imagine it would sit well with journalists to be told not to ask about major character changes on a TV show. I personally thought the press there seemed not particulary well informed or on the ball. I can think of many questions I'd like to have asked. Perhaps these guys don't even watch the show?

I was a little surprised Weir wasn't brought up, but then again Sheppard wasn't mentioned, and he's the leading man...so, it seems as if it was just about who was there and Carter coming over. I think the answer about Weir leaving would've been the same as always, that the decision was made and they can't go into the specifics of why. At least that's my guess.

vaberella
July 2nd, 2007, 04:25 AM
Weir an emasculator? that's a first. While I suspect the way Weir treated Caldwell was the writers' method of creating conflict (because they don't know how to writer people who negotiate!!), Kavanagh deserved what he got. Anyway, caldwell did do quite a bit of 'taking over' in some respects in "Conversion," making changes left and right and I thought Weir's viewpoint that in by doing so, Caldwell was leaving the implication Sheppard wasn't coming back to command, was correct. Maybe the military is used to it but half the population if not more are civilian/scientific personnel who may view it completely different than military personnel.

Anyway, in watching the SciFi press tour, wish someone had had the guts to ask why Weir had to go. In fact, it was cringeworthy at one point to watch the interviewers go silent. I mean, gads, you get invited to a press tour and can't think of a question?? Bangs head on keyboard. Or maybe they were warned what NOT to ask by Skiffy.

Not a first for me. I've mentioned it several times in the past. Yes I found her response to Kavanaugh uncalled for. You on the other hand disagree, but that counts for one from where I stand. Caldwell had two counts of her trying to emasculate him, Intruder where she went on his ship trying to take over and in Conversion. I actually didn't find what Caldwell was doing was wrong. He was making changes considering the time that John would be out, that he found more effective.

There was no way of knowing how long John would be incapcitated and he felt it necessary. Those changes seemed as though they could easily be reversed when John would come back. Second of all, Weir should have respected his need for changes as he was then head military in charge rather than feel the need to in some way "curb" his motives. There were none until it was confirmed John was out and he was then put there officially by the IOA. Until then, I thought Weir was jumping the gun and he was within his right.

The next count of emasculation, which is actually the first, was the neutering of Shep throughout Season 2. I was like, Shep didn't really stick up for anything and some of that was carried on into S3. <--But we can relate that to the writers problem with not giving John some cojones. :S

Another one, again in S2---woah, thinking now Weir was on an emasuclating binge. Was her interaction with the leader in Inferno. I wasn't impressed by her negotiating tactic and felt she was out of line. Others have disagreed with me on that point, but I wasn't a fan.


<snip>
I was a little surprised Weir wasn't brought up, but then again Sheppard wasn't mentioned, and he's the leading man...so, it seems as if it was just about who was there and Carter coming over. I think the answer about Weir leaving would've been the same as always, that the decision was made and they can't go into the specifics of why. At least that's my guess.

I agree with this. In the interview the statements made in regards to the changes seemed to reflect what JM and others have said in the past regarding the overall changes including Weir and Carson.

Cautious Explorer
July 2nd, 2007, 06:33 AM
Not a first for me. I've mentioned it several times in the past. Yes I found her response to Kavanaugh uncalled for. You on the other hand disagree, but that counts for one from where I stand. Caldwell had two counts of her trying to emasculate him, Intruder where she went on his ship trying to take over and in Conversion. I actually didn't find what Caldwell was doing was wrong. He was making changes considering the time that John would be out, that he found more effective.

Now there's at least two. :) I think Kavanaugh got what he deserved (at least in 38 Minutes). As to Caldwell, Weir's motive was to defend Sheppard not to emasculate Caldwell.

jenks
July 2nd, 2007, 06:54 AM
Now there's at least two. :) I think Kavanaugh got what he deserved (at least in 38 Minutes). As to Caldwell, Weir's motive was to defend Sheppard not to emasculate Caldwell.

What has second guessing Caldwell on Daedalus got to do with Sheppard? She was being confrontational and completely out of character the whole episode, and frankly, she was being a bit of a [---] too.

vaberella
July 2nd, 2007, 07:44 AM
What has second guessing Caldwell on Daedalus got to do with Sheppard? She was being confrontational and completely out of character the whole episode, and frankly, she was being a bit of a <mod snip with the reminder to NOT circumvent the language filters...if you can't debate without cussing, don't debate> too.

Straight up!!! :mckay:


Now there's at least two. :) I think Kavanaugh got what he deserved (at least in 38 Minutes). As to Caldwell, Weir's motive was to defend Sheppard not to emasculate Caldwell.

Uh...I wasn't speaking about Prion counting as one of the supporters for whether Kavanaugh deserved it or not. I said "that counts for one from where I stand", meaning that it's the first instance I count from where I stand. You'll notice I started listing down after that one.

Cautious Explorer
July 2nd, 2007, 07:45 AM
What has second guessing Caldwell on Daedalus got to do with Sheppard? She was being confrontational and completely out of character the whole episode, and frankly, she was being a bit of a <mod snip with the reminder to NOT circumvent the language filters...if you can't debate without cussing, don't debate> too.

I was talking about Conversion. :) To be honest, I never liked Intruder that much, so I don't remember what happened there.

elbo
July 2nd, 2007, 07:52 AM
I think she saw in Sheppard someone who do not question her authority very often and has nothing against with Weir having the last decision even in military situatuations, out of her competence. And that's why she oppose to every situation that would have change that and get stuck with a military type that don't take lightly, a civilian, emotional wreck, egomaniac and unqulifyied having the last word in every kind of military situation. Is very simple, keep someone who can control, at any cost. I don't think that this has anything to do with Sheppard (maby a little) but with her intention to secure her position as a leader of Atlantis and keep the military's hand tied up.

Did you notice in "First Strike" how surprised and dissapointed Weir is that Sheppard support the mission? She always percive and wanted a Sheppard to represent the military and calm the spirit back home, but to do her will unconditionate and denunce the military doctrine.

Come on guys don't you see? Weir has no right to play with people lifes, with Earth defence plans like that, giving her qualification. The military has any right to want more control, beceaue: they are the one who expend human resursces for this expedition (how many marines have died?), they are the ones who are in fact responsable and obliged to defend Earth interest and general population against a attack, or if Weir mistakes, how did happened, several times.

I don't understand why some people percive Weir leading Atlantis as a natural fact. Is NOT. Atlantis is not a country, is a military-scientific base placed in the middle of a war, a based already sieged several times by the Wraith and Asurans, and saved by military interventions, a base that contain sensitive information both about ancient techonlogy and Earth location and means to transportation, that cannot fall in the wrong hands. A leading civilian is not fit here, no to mention one who made ovious mistakes and repeat them and someone who has a natural adversity of military structure and doctrine.

If she want so much control and decision, i would have like to see her at least once acting like a real leader and puting her life on the line and not the lifes of others. To be a leader do not mean only to give orders, sent people in the dangerous missions, discuss problems of authority and playing cocky, but to actually inspire the people under your command give an example. If she want to be a WAR leader then she should act accordingly and to see her at least once (not everytime) how she take risk with her own life, for the sick of the expedition.

Suzotchka
July 2nd, 2007, 07:55 AM
Weir an emasculator? that's a first. While I suspect the way Weir treated Caldwell was the writers' method of creating conflict (because they don't know how to writer people who negotiate!!), Kavanagh deserved what he got. Anyway, caldwell did do quite a bit of 'taking over' in some respects in "Conversion," making changes left and right and I thought Weir's viewpoint that in by doing so, Caldwell was leaving the implication Sheppard wasn't coming back to command, was correct. Maybe the military is used to it but half the population if not more are civilian/scientific personnel who may view it completely different than military personnel.


Totally agree with you on that.

vaberella
July 2nd, 2007, 08:52 AM
<snip>Come on guys don't you see? Weir has no right to play with people lifes, with Earth defence plans like that, giving her qualification. The military has any right to want more control, beceaue: they are the one who expend human resursces for this expedition (how many marines have died?), they are the ones who are in fact responsable and obliged to defend Earth interest and general population against a attack, or if Weir mistakes, how did happened, several times.

I don't understand why some people percive Weir leading Atlantis as a natural fact. Is NOT. Atlantis is not a country, is a military-scientific base placed in the middle of a war, a based already sieged several times by the Wraith and Asurans, and saved by military interventions, a base that contain sensitive information both about ancient techonlogy and Earth location and means to transportation, that cannot fall in the wrong hands. A leading civilian is not fit here, no to mention one who made ovious mistakes and repeat them and someone who has a natural adversity of military structure and doctrine.


I couldn't agree more. Weir has aided us in developing more enemies than allies, and the allies we have had are dead by the enemies created because of her mistakes. I mean at this point we need to be militarized because we are at War. There is no group of people going out on a few diplomatic errands, this is straight up war. The militia I'm still annoyed Weir never created needs to be implemented this time around to utilize our strengths and make SGA slightly independent, until that moment there is no way a civilian is functional and especially when she has a second in command who postures to her authority or more than not she has completely disregards. For a civilian to disregard the concerns of her military leader the way Weir has, deserves to be off-seated on that point alone.

Suzotchka
July 2nd, 2007, 09:05 AM
I couldn't agree more. Weir has aided us in developing more enemies than allies, and the allies we have had are dead by the enemies created because of her mistakes. I mean at this point we need to be militarized because we are at War. There is no group of people going out on a few diplomatic errands, this is straight up war. The militia I'm still annoyed Weir never created needs to be implemented this time around to utilize our strengths and make SGA slightly independent, until that moment there is no way a civilian is functional and especially when she has a second in command who postures to her authority or more than not she has completely disregards. For a civilian to disregard the concerns of her military leader the way Weir has, deserves to be off-seated on that point alone.

Weir has 'aided' no more then John, McKay, Teyla, etc. So one could say that John has also aided us in developing more enemies than allies.

I don't think she has disregarded the concerns of her military leader at all. John has said numerous times that he agreed with her decisions.

the dancer of spaz
July 2nd, 2007, 09:13 AM
Weir has 'aided' no more then John, McKay, Teyla, etc. So one could say that John has also aided us in developing more enemies than allies.

I don't think she has disregarded the concerns of her military leader at all. John has said numerous times that he agreed with her decisions.

I agree.

I don't see how people can continue to blame one character for the expedition's poor choices - even if she's the leader - when all of the characters have contributed in one way or another. Sometimes I think people's standards are a bit unrealistic...

Granted, I don't think Liz is a saint or anything. But then again, who is? :rolleyes:

Linzi
July 2nd, 2007, 09:31 AM
I agree.

I don't see how people can continue to blame one character for the expedition's poor choices - even if she's the leader - when all of the characters have contributed in one way or another. Sometimes I think people's standards are a bit unrealistic...

Granted, I don't think Liz is a saint or anything. But then again, who is? :rolleyes:
Have to say I agree. I do think Weir disregarded Sheppard on occasion and vice versa, but IMHO any mistakes were pretty much joint ones, though, obviously, as with most decisions the boss takes the rap, fair or not.

Southern Red
July 2nd, 2007, 09:48 AM
I agree.

I don't see how people can continue to blame one character for the expedition's poor choices - even if she's the leader - when all of the characters have contributed in one way or another. Sometimes I think people's standards are a bit unrealistic...

Granted, I don't think Liz is a saint or anything. But then again, who is? :rolleyes:

Very good points. Weir has also said on numerous occasions that she takes full responsibility for any decisions made. For example, when Carson tried to take the blame for the fiasco with the retrovirus she was quick to point out that since she was in charge, it was her fault. I don't remember the episode. And John made it clear to Woolsey in Misbegotten that he had supported her decisions. Not to mention the numerous times Rodney has spoken up for her.

I think we are at the point where every S4 discussion thread is turning into a bash Weir thread. Maybe we can agree that some people will always blame her for the failure for the sun to shine on Atlantis and just move on. It's odd that those who have always hated her for various and sometimes unexplainable reasons can't stop piling on even though she is essentially gone. I think you can stop feeling threatened now. ;) That was sarcasm, by the way. ;);););)

the dancer of spaz
July 2nd, 2007, 09:51 AM
Very good points. Weir has also said on numerous occasions that she takes full responsibility for any decisions made. For example, when Carson tried to take the blame for the fiasco with the retrovirus she was quick to point out that since she was in charge, it was her fault. I don't remember the episode. And John made it clear to Woolsey in Misbegotten that he had supported her decisions. Not to mention the numerous times Rodney has spoken up for her.

I'm gonna miss the Rodney/Liz bits. :) Towards the end of S3, I feel like we really got to see their friendship develop beyond their mutual connection to John. And I was *this* close to being moderately OK with them being shipped together.


I think we are at the point where every S4 discussion thread is turning into a bash Weir thread.

Just Weir? Hmm.

We can't forget about the Saint, can we?

Linzi
July 2nd, 2007, 09:54 AM
I'm gonna miss the Rodney/Liz bits. :) Towards the end of S3, I feel like we really got to see their friendship develop beyond their mutual connection to John. And I was *this* close to being moderately OK with them being shipped together.



Just Weir? Hmm.

We can't forget about the Saint, can we?
Touché! :)

elbo
July 2nd, 2007, 10:41 AM
I couldn't agree more. Weir has aided us in developing more enemies than allies, and the allies we have had are dead by the enemies created because of her mistakes. I mean at this point we need to be militarized because we are at War. There is no group of people going out on a few diplomatic errands, this is straight up war. The militia I'm still annoyed Weir never created needs to be implemented this time around to utilize our strengths and make SGA slightly independent, until that moment there is no way a civilian is functional and especially when she has a second in command who postures to her authority or more than not she has completely disregards. For a civilian to disregard the concerns of her military leader the way Weir has, deserves to be off-seated on that point alone.

Yes it seem strange and ironic, giving her so-called diplomacy skills and the nature of her character who doesn't travel much off-world, that she has a very important contribution to make us few enemies.

She is cleary the one who tip off the Asurans of both existence and location of Atlantis, creating us this most powerfull enemy by her own. I think that the Asurans would have ignored us otherwise.

The only race, beside Athosians (which if i recall corectly she object to bring them in the city in "Rising") that we have a solid alliance (we gain something important) are the super-volcano people, Tauranians (sp?) which are killed later, because of her double fault, mostly (Michael's experiment and the Wraith comunity).

I don't see other characters actions making enemies, but allies. And that's i said that is somehow ironic that Weir the diplomat, usually destroy what others build in their missions.

elbo
July 2nd, 2007, 10:53 AM
Very good points. Weir has also said on numerous occasions that she takes full responsibility for any decisions made. For example, when Carson tried to take the blame for the fiasco with the retrovirus she was quick to point out that since she was in charge, it was her fault. I don't remember the episode. And John made it clear to Woolsey in Misbegotten that he had supported her decisions. Not to mention the numerous times Rodney has spoken up for her.

I think we are at the point where every S4 discussion thread is turning into a bash Weir thread. Maybe we can agree that some people will always blame her for the failure for the sun to shine on Atlantis and just move on. It's odd that those who have always hated her for various and sometimes unexplainable reasons can't stop piling on even though she is essentially gone. I think you can stop feeling threatened now. ;) That was sarcasm, by the way. ;);););)

Long story short! I will love to stop discussing Weir. Unfortunately there are a huge number of avatars and signatures about saving a certain Saint, that annoy my eyes and take my focus from other stuff. Apparenty beloging to some people who will not watch the show now that the Saint is gone and the blonde Demon came.

So i understand that Weir's subject is still hot (clue: the signatures) so i discuss it further. Suit me!

vaberella
July 2nd, 2007, 11:09 AM
Weir has 'aided' no more then John, McKay, Teyla, etc. So one could say that John has also aided us in developing more enemies than allies.

I don't think she has disregarded the concerns of her military leader at all. John has said numerous times that he agreed with her decisions.

Obviously we are definitely watching two different shows. I know Teyla, John, and Ronon told Weir in Progeny they did not trust Oberoth and to let it go. They told her twice in the same session, Teyla said it first, John agreed with Teyla and Ronon followed...did she listen?! Hell no she didn't listen. Please don't tell me you saw John agreeing with her in that scene, because he clearly said he agreed with Teyla that these people were not trust worthy. She ignored them. Everyone saw that, she is at fault really for the problem we're having with the Asurans. If not for her, they would have sent her on her way and without a problem. No she had to do one last negotiation which almost got the SGA Ex wiped out, informed the Asurans of Earth and shoot got us a another extremely powerful enemy. These guys are pretty bad, worse than the wraith is debatable. But based on the clip I saw of S5, they're just as bad.

Let's back pedal to Michael. Was I the only one to see John clearly agree with Teyla that it's NOT a good idea to let Michael roam at all?! I think not. He was clearly having issues with it, if I remember the scene correctly that I saw 5 seconds ago. Sure he might have agreed to Michael and I'll allow it since I can't prove otherwise, but for Michael to recon all the information he was able too so we had the problem in Vengeance where his bug babies are eating our "allies" it's all Weir's fault for disregarding John's exclamaitions and listening to Carson and Heightmeyer. Carson and Heightmeyer, I need a scotch when I hear that. Who disregards their security and head of military to listen to doctors?! We knew Carson didn't perfect the bloody retrovirus and she knew that... there was never any proof the wraith woudl even forget that they were wraith...and then you let them roam and able to recon, give me a break. Weir is to blame and she for sure disregarded Shep's warning.

As for awakening the Wraith, I won't deny Shep did that, but let me tell, with the statements I made above Weir made it worse and all on her own.

Many of you forget one thing, until it suits you. Weir is leader!! End of story, so when there is a problem, it does fall on her shoulder because she has FINAL decision on all things. She was given the pros and cons----and in the cases where she instigated the problems, she BLATANTLY IGNORED the warnings of her military leader to do what she wanted....she is bloody well to blame and she is of course the cause of the situation with the Asurans problem we have---even before First Strike, why? Because again, if she left and did not meet with Oberoth and giving us up---we wouldn't even have to worry about the Asurans because they wouldnt' know we're even from Atlantis.

Had she give the order to at least kill Michael after her mess of letting him roam against John's wishes, we probably wouldnt' have had Michael escape and end up creating his own little army. This all falls on Weir, not only because she's leader, but because she DID disregard John's views for her own ideas, and also because she makes final decision.

I may have defended Weir in her silliness in The Game, but when it comes to Michael and Progeny, Weir's mistakes don't even compare to John's awakening of the Wraith (something of which was predestined to happen---You didn't hear Michael's bug babies predestined nor the Asurans wanting us dead as predestined(sure they wanted to kill all things Ancient but if she kept her mouth shut----no problems)) or activating Teyla's necklace.

***And I'm not counting the Genii as for all we know at the moment Koyla is dead and we have a tentative alliance of some sort with the Genii because of Ladon.

At this point, I'm participating in a circular argument since I've laid these points out before and I'm sure you've read them before since I have proof that you have. I did explain it one last time, but if you need clarification its in the eps. John said no, and Weir said "thanks for the opinion, but I have my own idea" <---which caused us problems!!


Long story short! I will love to stop discussing Weir. Unfortunately there are a huge number of avatars and signatures about saving a certain Saint, that annoy my eyes and take my focus from other stuff. Apparenty beloging to some people who will not watch the show now that the Saint is gone and the blonde Demon came.

So i understand that Weir's subject is still hot (clue: the signatures) so i discuss it further. Suit me!

Oh so true, I purchased a pair of ray-bans because of what I was looking at. I asked Jenks to lend me his/her avatar, to ward off teh scariness, so I can feel some what normal.


Jenks where is that avie?!


Very good points. Weir has also said on numerous occasions that she takes full responsibility for any decisions made. For example, when Carson tried to take the blame for the fiasco with the retrovirus she was quick to point out that since she was in charge, it was her fault. I don't remember the episode. And John made it clear to Woolsey in Misbegotten that he had supported her decisions. Not to mention the numerous times Rodney has spoken up for her.

I think we are at the point where every S4 discussion thread is turning into a bash Weir thread. Maybe we can agree that some people will always blame her for the failure for the sun to shine on Atlantis and just move on. It's odd that those who have always hated her for various and sometimes unexplainable reasons can't stop piling on even though she is essentially gone. I think you can stop feeling threatened now. ;) That was sarcasm, by the way. ;);););)

To the statement in bold: I could say the same that "it's odd that those who have always LIKED her for various and sometimes unexplainable reasons can't stop piling on even though she is essentially gone." <--but they're still coming to the rescue and we can still say what we want.

As for defending her: It doesn't matter who defends her, the point is she is to blame. It's funny you mention Michael where she tells Carson it's her fault, I say this only because when it came to Vengeance and at the death of the "Tauranians"---people from Inferno---Weir said "WE"...as if to say the blame was shouldered by the Atlantis Ex, when it's clearly her fault. So she renegged on the initial saying that it was her fault to it being their fault. Weir is to blame as she should have felt, she was in Vengeance but forgot.

By the way, those who have had a problem with Weir on this thread, have laid out our reasons. So you must be talking about others in other threads. On a last note: Who's feeling threatened by what I consider a lame character who could have been good?! Not me. Onwards and upwards, we were having a discussion, some agreed and some disagreed----until those feel that it's bashing. Whatever...at this point bashing is subjective to the reader.

elbo
July 2nd, 2007, 11:17 AM
The Wraith awakening was inevitable. Sooner of later, Sheppard or another ancient gene carrier would have activate a Wraith transmiter, the Wraith would have came, fight, self-defence, we don't live people behind (Weir does), and the Wraith would have awaken anyway. Apparently are a telepatic race and it need just one to awake all of them.

But is strange that a front-line team manage to make more friends (numerous cases in which they saved the indigenous population) than enemies, and a desk diplomat, mainly: make enemies from the Asurans, disclose the knowledge that Atlantis still exist twice to the Wraith, take decisions which lead to disclosing Earth location to 2 Wraith ships, guity of the slaughter of a entire civilasation (vulcano people), sacrifice Orion and a Wraith hive and still has time to fight her little war with Eart's military.

Please no more Saints. Maby we should analize the other characters too and see which one have produce such damage?

And yes she take responsability twice. Once in NML with half-mouth and once in "Michael" more to make Carson feel better. Please, give me a break. "I destroy Earth and i take full responsability. I'm human after all. Can we please move along now?".

To take responsability in Weir's case and regarding the gravity of her mistakes and her lack of skills to lead the fight agains Wraith and Replicators will mean to R E S I G N. Did she do that? Let the people in charge to decide if they accept her resignation or not. Did she do that? Then from where this responsability crap?

Skydiver
July 2nd, 2007, 05:52 PM
Ok folks

first, this is a DEBATE thread. Which means that all opinions are welcome. As long as they respect teh cast and crew and respect each other and are within the forum rules, they are welcome here.

Which means...folks you're likely gonna read stuff that you don't like in here if you have passionate feelings one way or the other.

Them's the breaks.

If you can't stand to read an opinion stridently opposite of your own...don't read and stay to a single sided thread.

This also means...folks, this is a debate thread...not a 'let's see how much i can tick off the fans of so and so.' how about toning down the rhetoric and witchiness and see if you can scrape up some dispassionate debate and exchange of opinions rather than endlessly banging the same tired old drum.

You want to rant, why don't you go find a pro or anti thread to rant in.

Agent_Dark
July 2nd, 2007, 06:41 PM
The only way to settle this arguement is a nudie battle in mud. I suggest tonight, at 8pm. I'll organise some beer :)

Mitchell82
July 2nd, 2007, 06:44 PM
The only way to settle this arguement is a nudie battle in mud. I suggest tonight, at 8pm. I'll organise some beer :)

I'll bring the mud.;)

Uber
July 2nd, 2007, 06:55 PM
The only way to settle this arguement is a nudie battle in mud. I suggest tonight, at 8pm. I'll organise some beer :)And who pray tell will be doing the actual mud wrestling?

Agent_Dark
July 2nd, 2007, 07:00 PM
And who pray tell will be doing the actual mud wrestling?

Well I was hoping that you'd step up to the arena for one :) Anyone want to challenge Uber?

Mitchell82
July 2nd, 2007, 07:10 PM
Well I was hoping that you'd step up to the arena for one :) Anyone want to challenge Uber?

Well I'm game if Uber can handle a military officer!;)

Uber
July 2nd, 2007, 07:16 PM
Well I was hoping that you'd step up to the arena for one :) Anyone want to challenge Uber?LOL I live to serve the pro-Carter in Atlantis cause in any way i can.

Well, almost any way. Pick another sucker champion. ;)

Mitchell82
July 2nd, 2007, 07:18 PM
LOL I live to serve the pro-Carter in Atlantis cause in any way i can.

Well, almost any way. Pick another sucker champion. ;)

Oh come now don't tell me your chicken! Bwaaaaakkkk, Bwaaaaaakk! Chicken!;)

Uber
July 2nd, 2007, 07:21 PM
Oh come now don't tell me your chicken! Bwaaaaakkkk, Bwaaaaaakk! Chicken!;)If the feathers and the loud clucking noises fit...and they most certainly do...

...then I'll proudly bear that mantle. Or feather boa. While naked. ;)

Agent_Dark
July 2nd, 2007, 07:23 PM
If the feathers and the loud clucking noises fit...and they most certainly do...

...then I'll proudly bear that mantle. Or feather boa. While naked. ;)

whooooo

Mitchell82
July 2nd, 2007, 07:33 PM
If the feathers and the loud clucking noises fit...and they most certainly do...

...then I'll proudly bear that mantle. Or feather boa. While naked. ;)

YIPPEE! And I'll spread the mud all over my body and scream loudly (think Arnold in Predator).;)

scifi_lemon
July 2nd, 2007, 07:51 PM
If the feathers and the loud clucking noises fit...and they most certainly do...

...then I'll proudly bear that mantle. Or feather boa. While naked. ;)

....is this one of those wrong time to come into a conversation times? Because that's the first post I read and.....:weiranime33:

But now that I've read all the other ones, I'll cheer for whoever's Pro Carter Anti Weir!! ;)

scifi_lemon
July 2nd, 2007, 07:52 PM
YIPPEE! And I'll spread the mud all over my body and scream loudly (think Arnold in Predator).;)

.......0.o

nuff said

vaberella
July 2nd, 2007, 09:25 PM
The only way to settle this arguement is a nudie battle in mud. I suggest tonight, at 8pm. I'll organise some beer :)

You bring the VB----and VB will be there in the Arena...You have two of my favorite things...mud and wrestling, we can't go wrong.


....is this one of those wrong time to come into a conversation times? Because that's the first post I read and.....:weiranime33:

But now that I've read all the other ones, I'll cheer for whoever's Pro Carter Anti Weir!! ;)

That's me!!!
==============================
Now to spread a little back on topic news. I hope SGA doesn't come back to normal, I like where it's going now and what their doing. I feel bad for Carson's character and I feel for his die hard fans, and I find his absense really meaningless although it was executed well, but no other characters---at this point (the followers turned me off---didn't like their harassment http://i42.photobucket.com/albums/e308/vaberella/needahug.gif).

But on that note, I do like Keller and although JM has said we'll be plesantly surprised by Carson's return, I am still a bit worried. Plus if I could turn pink I'd be tickled by the thought of Ronon wearing a suit---with those confirmations coming out it makes me believe nothing will be the same, and really I can't hope for better.

Ronon in a suit?! I love it! http://i42.photobucket.com/albums/e308/vaberella/happy0188.gif

On a very off topic comment, don't live uptown in the city, these guys don't know dates, at 2am on the 3rd we already have a mass of fireworks and they're bbqing. I understand that we like to block party early, but this is ridiculous. http://i42.photobucket.com/albums/e308/vaberella/huh2.gif

Mitchell82
July 2nd, 2007, 10:06 PM
.......0.o

nuff said

Hey not fair I'm much better looking than him!

Mitchell82
July 2nd, 2007, 10:10 PM
You bring the VB----and VB will be there in the Arena...You have two of my favorite things...mud and wrestling, we can't go wrong.



That's me!!!
==============================
Now to spread a little back on topic news. I hope SGA doesn't come back to normal, I like where it's going now and what their doing. I feel bad for Carson's character and I feel for his die hard fans, and I find his absense really meaningless although it was executed well, but no other characters---at this point (the followers turned me off---didn't like their harassment http://i42.photobucket.com/albums/e308/vaberella/needahug.gif).

But on that note, I do like Keller and although JM has said we'll be plesantly surprised by Carson's return, I am still a bit worried. Plus if I could turn pink I'd be tickled by the thought of Ronon wearing a suit---with those confirmations coming out it makes me believe nothing will be the same, and really I can't hope for better.

Ronon in a suit?! I love it! http://i42.photobucket.com/albums/e308/vaberella/happy0188.gif

On a very off topic comment, don't live uptown in the city, these guys don't know dates, at 2am on the 3rd we already have a mass of fireworks and they're bbqing. I understand that we like to block party early, but this is ridiculous. http://i42.photobucket.com/albums/e308/vaberella/huh2.gif

I've got to agree. I have enjoyed the early seasons of SGA but really loved the darker tone of season 3 and am really liking the new direction of SGA. The fact it is getting darker and the prospect of the new direction, darker stories and more character development it really sounds great. As to the OT comment I know it's the same here.

pie eater general
July 3rd, 2007, 03:01 AM
Now, mind you that this is just speculation here, but I personally think the reason behind Carson's departure and Weir's reduced role are caused by Carter coming onto Atlantis.

But since they left Carson's "death" so ambiguous, do you guys think TPTB plan to bring everything back to uh..."normal" after AT's contract is up?

Will Season 5 mark the return of the 'true' Atlantis?

:sheppard: :ronan: :mckay: :weir: :beckett: :teyla:

Thoughts? Added Speculation?


Well, why stop there? Maybe Season 5 will see the end of Ronan and the return of Ford... wouldn't that be the 'true' Atlantis?

Sorry to sound snarky, but I see TV shows (the good ones anyway) as living, evolving creations (oxymoron surely!)... things change, sometimes for worse, but usually for the better... hopefully things will work out that way here too.

Adria
July 3rd, 2007, 03:37 AM
Now, mind you that this is just speculation here, but I personally think the reason behind Carson's departure and Weir's reduced role are caused by Carter coming onto Atlantis.

But since they left Carson's "death" so ambiguous, do you guys think TPTB plan to bring everything back to uh..."normal" after AT's contract is up?

Will Season 5 mark the return of the 'true' Atlantis?

:sheppard: :ronan: :mckay: :weir: :beckett: :teyla:

Thoughts? Added Speculation?

no! i'm sick of everyone using the reset button on sga. if you're going to change something actaully keep that change.

i mean next time we see ford again would you rather see super ford like we did in the hive. or see him wearing a tutu and dancing with wraith

Linzi
July 3rd, 2007, 04:23 AM
no! i'm sick of everyone using the reset button on sga. if you're going to change something actaully keep that change.

i mean next time we see ford again would you rather see super ford like we did in the hive. or see him wearing a tutu and dancing with wraith
Well, wearing a tutu and dancing with wraith sounds interesting, to say the least! :eek:

Falcon Horus
July 3rd, 2007, 11:45 AM
i mean next time we see ford again would you rather see super ford like we did in the hive. or see him wearing a tutu and dancing with wraith

Maybe he's high on the Wraith enzyme...anything is possible. :p

Southern Red
July 3rd, 2007, 12:00 PM
Maybe he's high on the Wraith enzyme...anything is possible. :p

They could name the episode "Dances With Wraiths". :lol:

Adria
July 3rd, 2007, 02:17 PM
Maybe he's high on the Wraith enzyme...anything is possible. :p

he already is

scifi_lemon
July 3rd, 2007, 03:18 PM
Hey not fair I'm much better looking than him!

*snort* I don't think it'd be that hard to look better than the Governator. uh, no offense ;)


They could name the episode "Dances With Wraiths". :lol:

*snort* LOL!

sanssong
July 3rd, 2007, 05:31 PM
Weir has 'aided' no more then John, McKay, Teyla, etc. So one could say that John has also aided us in developing more enemies than allies.

Uh, nope. With the exception of John, who was trying to save the lives of his men, none of the others have helped Atlantis make enemies. Weir has had some woppa-dosey BAD decsisions that made eneimes of the Asurans, Michael, and nearly the Terranans, had they more ability to fight back when she gave the order to blow up the Orion. Name ONE situation where Teyla or Rodney has made enemies for Atlantis?


I don't think she has disregarded the concerns of her military leader at all. John has said numerous times that he agreed with her decisions.

John likes to get along- so if he doesn't strongly disagree with Weir and her lame attempts to do his job for him, he goes along. It's just the kind of man he is. His one love in life is going out on missions and flying. He'll do the other stuff if he has to, but if he can skate and get Weir to do it for him then he will. I wish to heck he wouldn't cause everytime Weir trys to make military decisions things go terribly wrong. She's not trained for that kind of job- period. Thankfully, the writers have fixed this situation and she won't be there anymore to get Atlantis in any more trouble.

You can tell where John's loyalties lie when his higher ups come on the scene from Earth. He JUMPS over Weir to side with them while all she does is complain that she should have a say in decisions that she has NO expertise in. And then she wonders why no one wants from the IOA wants to keep her in the loop about the decisions they need to make.

Mitchell82
July 4th, 2007, 01:37 PM
*snort* I don't think it'd be that hard to look better than the Governator. uh, no offense ;)



*snort* LOL!

None taken.;)

Mitchell82
July 4th, 2007, 01:39 PM
Well, why stop there? Maybe Season 5 will see the end of Ronan and the return of Ford... wouldn't that be the 'true' Atlantis?

Sorry to sound snarky, but I see TV shows (the good ones anyway) as living, evolving creations (oxymoron surely!)... things change, sometimes for worse, but usually for the better... hopefully things will work out that way here too.

Good point. Things change but not always for the better. In this case things are looking good lets hope i'm right.

Skydiver
July 6th, 2007, 08:08 AM
Long story short! I will love to stop discussing Weir. Unfortunately there are a huge number of avatars and signatures about saving a certain Saint, that annoy my eyes and take my focus from other stuff. Apparenty beloging to some people who will not watch the show now that the Saint is gone and the blonde Demon came.

So i understand that Weir's subject is still hot (clue: the signatures) so i discuss it further. Suit me!
folks

WE CANNOT AND WILL NOT POLICE SIGS AND AVATARS

as long as they fall within the rules, (our rules based on respecting the actors and the pg limit and basic decency) folks can express whatever they want with their avs.

if you don't like them, turn them off or get over it.

scifi_lemon
July 6th, 2007, 06:14 PM
folks

WE CANNOT AND WILL NOT POLICE SIGS AND AVATARS

as long as they fall within the rules, (our rules based on respecting the actors and the pg limit and basic decency) folks can express whatever they want with their avs.

if you don't like them, turn them off or get over it.

To be honest, why do people care about the avatars/sigs? It doesn't change their opinion. *shrug*

ciannwn
July 7th, 2007, 03:02 AM
With the exception of John, who was trying to save the lives of his men, none of the others have helped Atlantis make enemies. Weir has had some woppa-dosey BAD decsisions that made eneimes of the Asurans, Michael, and nearly the Terranans, had they more ability to fight back when she gave the order to blow up the Orion. Name ONE situation where Teyla or Rodney has made enemies for Atlantis?

cause everytime Weir trys to make military decisions things go terribly wrong. She's not trained for that kind of job- period. Thankfully, the writers have fixed this situation and she won't be there anymore to get Atlantis in any more trouble.

I'm guessing that Weir made horribly bad decisions and created enemies because it was essential for plot purposes. It's all very well being glad that the writers have 'fixed' the situation by getting rid of Weir but somebody else will have to make bad decisions/enemies instead in order to create new situations and stories.

maxbo
July 7th, 2007, 04:28 AM
I'm guessing that Weir made horribly bad decisions and created enemies because it was essential for plot purposes. It's all very well being glad that the writers have 'fixed' the situation by getting rid of Weir but somebody else will have to make bad decisions/enemies instead in order to create new situations and stories.

I agree that Elizabeth was the victim of plot-driven writing and if the writers don't own up to this and resolve to write tighter scripts that keep the characters in-character, then I'm afraid that, despite the very promising spoilers, new victims will be chosen in Season 4. :(

ciannwn
July 7th, 2007, 04:40 AM
I agree that Elizabeth was the victim of plot-driven writing and if the writers don't own up to this and resolve to write tighter scripts that keep the characters in-character, then I'm afraid that, despite the very promising spoilers, new victims will be chosen in Season 4. :(

This is the main reason why I'm not happy with Sam Carter moving over to SGA. I really, really like the character and always have done. I'm just hoping her versatility doesn't mean she ends up creating disasters in the military, scientific and diplomatic areas because so many future plots require somebody putting a foot in it. :( :(

I just hope the writers can find a different way of creating crises otherwise it will have to be Sheppard, McKay, Ronon and Teyla taking it in turns to be idiot of the week. Carter will then end up looking silly because she'll have to keep defending the others in order to keep them on the team. :(

maxbo
July 7th, 2007, 05:25 AM
This is the main reason why I'm not happy with Sam Carter moving over to SGA. I really, really like the character and always have done. I'm just hoping her versatility doesn't mean she ends up creating disasters in the military, scientific and diplomatic areas because so many future plots require somebody putting a foot in it. :( :(

I've adjusted to the fact that Sam will be SGA's new leader, however, I share your concern about how TPTB will incorporate her into Atlantis. I don't want TPTB to make any of the characters look incompetent to suit the plot because that kind of lazy writing always takes me out of the storyline.


I just hope the writers can find a different way of creating crises otherwise it will have to be Sheppard, McKay, Ronon and Teyla taking it in turns to be idiot of the week. Carter will then end up looking silly because she'll have to keep defending the others in order to keep them on the team. :(

I also hope that the writers will not make the characters look stupid in order to generate conflict. Season 2's The Long Goodbye is a prime example of the kind of lazy, character damaging writing that I hope we don't see in Season 4.

In that episode, it was clear that the writers wanted to have Elizabeth affected first and then have Sheppard affected later, however, instead of taking the time to plot how to achieve that without making Sheppard, Rodney, Caldwell and Carson look stupid, they (the writers) took the lazy route and indeed made the characters look stupid.

You know the writing for that episode was bad when the fans easily came up with several plausible ways to achieve the same end without making the characters look like they should have been sitting in the corner wearing dunce hats.

Beakymoose
July 7th, 2007, 05:53 PM
I think that there's a pretty good chance that Atlantis will be back for a fifth season, but there are definately some issues that tptb need to remedy (like lazy character writing, and not reacting to Carson's death, etc.) for it to make it.

Mitchell82
July 8th, 2007, 02:17 PM
I think that there's a pretty good chance that Atlantis will be back for a fifth season, but there are definately some issues that tptb need to remedy (like lazy character writing, and not reacting to Carson's death, etc.) for it to make it.

I agree about the fifth season but I don't think the writing is bad at all. As to Carson it was actually well done because they all acted well in Sunday and it would have just been very depressing for the characters.