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Nurgle
May 3rd, 2004, 05:59 AM
Isn't it odd that the people at SGC havn't really considered the "real world" (i.e. Earth-based) implications of Tritonin... using the Immunitech cloned symbiotes (or even the symbiotes on the Unas homeworld, or has everyone forgetten about those) they could mass-produce it and use it as a treatment for all kind of immune system disorders (HIV, AIDS etc etc).

Considering the pharma industry is pretty damned secretive anyway, nobody would question where the drug came from....

Ace
May 3rd, 2004, 06:11 AM
I don't think they considered it because Tritonin takes over for a human's immune system. It's not a quick fix, a person who took Tritonin for AIDS would then have to take Tritonin for the rest of his life inorder to just survive because he wouldn't have an immune system without it. And there is no way to make enough of the drug to sustain a population of Earth's size

Ace

Nurgle
May 3rd, 2004, 06:14 AM
Well, the thing that makes AIDS so damned nasty is that it destroys the immune system, so the immune-system-killing side-effects of Tritonin wouldn't be an issue...

As for getting the symbiotes, the address of the Unas+Gu'aold homeworld is known, and I'm sure there are plenty of the things hanging around there, as well as the cloning research done by Immunotech (or whatever the hell Conrads company is called)...

EDIT: I'm not suggesting the use of Tritonin for the entire planet, only those who would actually need it...

Mr Prophet
May 3rd, 2004, 06:23 AM
Well, the thing that makes AIDS so damned nasty is that it destroys the immune system, so the immune-system-killing side-effects of Tritonin wouldn't be an issue...


Plus, the dependency was a side-effect artifically created by Egeria to try and make the Pangarans stop torturing her, wasn't it? She fixed that before she died.

Crazedwraith
May 3rd, 2004, 06:32 AM
Plus, the dependency was a side-effect artifically created by Egeria to try and make the Pangarans stop torturing her, wasn't it? She fixed that before she died.

No she just made her symbiotes, slightly different from the normal and they created much less potent Tretonin this less effective flaw also stoped the Tok'Ra finding a cure. Your still dependant on it though but their is a cure for your depedancy.

Also why hasn't the Tok'Ra's Get-you-off-tretinion drug been considered to stop Jaffa's dependacy on symbiotes?

Whta would happen if Teal'c/Bre'tac/Ishta's rebels took the cure?

Mr Prophet
May 3rd, 2004, 06:36 AM
Also why hasn't the Tok'Ra's Get-you-off-tretinion drug been considered to stop Jaffa's dependacy on symbiotes?

Whta would happen if Teal'c/Bre'tac/Ishta's rebels took the cure?

Well, I would say that it's because Jaffa have had large bits of their inside scooped out, rearranged and otherwise monkeyed with (how does Teal'c eat so much at a sitting when he has a hole in his gut? Let alone do sit-ups?), except that Ishta's lot seem to be born with the pouch, but also with a short-term immune system.

I think the answer is basically 'plot'.

Skydiver
May 3rd, 2004, 09:22 AM
tretonin is made from the mass murder of sentient creatures.yes, it's a better option than all the jaffa dying in 10 years or so, but all they've done is exchange one addiction for another. at least in the primta mode (jaffa style) both parties survive, for better or worse.

And even if you grab a queen and convince her to make blank slate babies, all of a sudden the survival of a race comes from the murder of sentinet beings AND slavery

tretonin is a short term fix with zero to no future

it illustrates the irony of the jaffa's struggle for freedom...in attaining the end of their slavery, they are also attaining the demise of their race

aAnubiSs
May 3rd, 2004, 09:42 AM
I'd love for Earth, Rebel Jaffa and the Tok'Ra to really start working together.

Tok'Ra develop new weapons and tactical stuff.
Earth has the tactics and some equipment, does all stealth and backup.
Jaffa are the main power, uses Staffs and then dual Zats. Earth cover with snipers and stuff.

This way taking out stuff would be much easier.

Bacardi
May 3rd, 2004, 09:46 AM
goin to the goa'uld/unas homeworld is kinda dangerous.. n 2b honest not really worth it. Tritonin is like naquadriah (sp?)...its a short cut. a quick fix to a current problem. dont wanna use it too much else things could get worse.

Teal'c
May 3rd, 2004, 11:37 AM
Jacob said in The Changeling that Tretonin is only a stop-gap measure until the Tok'ra are able to devise a permenant solution, which I'm sure they are doing because if the Jaffa can be free of symbiote needs, they are truely free.

Pharaoh Atem
February 19th, 2006, 05:12 PM
how would there explain where there got it from and what it's made of.

be kinda hard

Bragi
February 19th, 2006, 05:42 PM
I thought the Tok'ra found a way to synthesize Tretonin.

knowles2
February 21st, 2006, 02:32 AM
Yeah that what I thought, they develop artifical drug which take the place of tritonin and could be mass produce by us for the jaffa, why we do not trade it for weapons and a few hataks for their own production facilities I do not know. And the pharma industry is resourceful so they could say they develop it by accident while researching a cure for aids, know one was question this because the industry is very protective of even their production methodlet alone the drugs they actually produce.

And also I believe the tokra are suppose to working on a perminate solution, also thought they said that the artifical version of the drug would not improve their immune system.

Avatar28
February 21st, 2006, 02:50 AM
Because the jaffa mistrust the tauri. I believe the point was actually raised and there were objections to the idea of being free of one enslavement only to willingly subject themselves to another.

Honestly, the jaffa really are NOT advanced. They have technology they captured from the goa'uld and know how to operate and likely repair it but, by and large, I don't believe they really understand the principles behind it. Much like joe six-pack may know how to operate a computer and even perform basic repairs to windows and such but if it comes to more in depth stuff that requires understanding how it works and on a more detailed level then they're lost.

The jaffa also seems to lack any sort of serious industrial base. Certainly they have nothing on the scale of earth.

FallenAngelII
February 21st, 2006, 03:27 AM
When I asked whatever happened to tretonin a few months ago, the answer came back that the Tok'ra managed to synthetize it. Which is why the Rebel Jaffa can now sustain themselves on Tretonin.

Using Tretonin to cure AIDS is a viable thing since they would die from AIDS eventually anyway. Having to take Tretonin for the rest of their lives is much better since AIDS breaks down the immune system.

Seastallion
February 21st, 2006, 03:51 AM
When I asked whatever happened to tretonin a few months ago, the answer came back that the Tok'ra managed to synthetize it. Which is why the Rebel Jaffa can now sustain themselves on Tretonin.

Using Tretonin to cure AIDS is a viable thing since they would die from AIDS eventually anyway. Having to take Tretonin for the rest of their lives is much better since AIDS breaks down the immune system.


You made the point I was just getting ready to make. It was the Pangarans who created tretonin, but it was the Tok'ra who learned to synthesize it, so that it no longer required the actual use of symbiotes in making it. I suspect they simply found a way to artificially create the molecular makeup that makes tretonin so effective.

If Tretonin were to be used on Earth, than I think it would need to be used for those who simply have no other alternative. Severe old age might be one prerequisite for taking Tretonin. It would renew the vitality of the aged, giving them years longer to live. I'm not sure that someone with AIDS would be the best candidate for Tretonin however. Tretonin does take over the for the Immune system (in the case of the Pangarans, the dependency coud be reversed, but not while allowing them to continue taking it.), but the problem with AIDS victims, is not that their immune system no longer works. The AIDS virus simply by-passes the Immune system. So, if a specific cure for AIDS can be found, then their immune system would work just fine. It might be possible to temporarily give an AIDS patient Tretonin, and then use the same method to take them off of it, as was done with the Pangarans. It might work as a cure.

Even so... I still think that certain neccessities would be required for taking the Tretonin in the first place. It can be sythesized, which means massive doses of it can be created without using symbiotes, but there are a lot of Jaffa out there needing it, and creating Tretonin for the whole galaxy would be a massive undertaking. I think Tretonin is fine, if there is no other alternatives, but why make yourself dependent if you don't need to?

Oh... the reason the Jaffa can't stop taking Tretonin? Because their physiology has been altered from normal humans. They CAN'T live without either a symbiote, or the tretonin to replace it. The method used on the Pangarans simply won't work for the Jaffa, because it requires much more extreme measures to accomplish it.

Avatar28
February 22nd, 2006, 12:14 AM
Actually, no. What kills in AIDS is not the HIV virus itself but rather the fact that it eventually destroys the immune system, leaving you vulnerable to infection. That's what typically kills an AIDS patient, the secondary infections. In fact, just look at the name, Acquired Immune Deficiency Syndrome, AIDS.

Deevil
February 22nd, 2006, 12:24 AM
Umm, you know that we don't have the ability to sythasize this drug right? And to use it as a so called cure would be a lie. It's not a cure so much as a drug dependancy, they will die anyway... To be honest it might not even work considering it attacks the immune system; why would it not attack an artifical immune system?

Avatar28
February 22nd, 2006, 12:37 AM
because it defeats the immune system and hides in a very specific way. It wouldn't have evolved to work against something like tretonin, just as I'm sure a goa'uld symbiote would also be able to cure AIDS.

Deevil
February 22nd, 2006, 02:43 AM
because it defeats the immune system and hides in a very specific way. It wouldn't have evolved to work against something like tretonin, just as I'm sure a goa'uld symbiote would also be able to cure AIDS.

The Tok'ra specifically designed the tretonian to deal with the loss of a symbiote, and thus it's pretty specific in it's uses. There is no way they could randomly pick a disease to use it on and hope to cure because it might kill them. And the way AIDS subjucates the immune system doesn't mean that tretonin could cure it, it may actually react like a virus in their system. We don't know, and it would be too risky to try.

Add to that as humans we only have a basic understanding of how it works and doesn't work. If you really want to cure disease, why don't we clone a goa'uld and implant them. In nightwalkers they cloned goa'uld and they didn't perminatly take over, so why don't we give that a try? Or would that be a stupid idea?

FallenAngelII
February 22nd, 2006, 02:47 AM
Yes, cloning Goa'uld would be stupid. And we have to try first to find out if it works. Grab a random terminally ill and soon-to-die AIDS patient and give them the drug.

Deevil
February 22nd, 2006, 02:51 AM
yes, because we will be able to get enough of the drug from the Tok'ra to support an ailing civilisation. Remember they don't like us much, they don't even like the Jaffa much. I think we should be thankful for what we get.

But you know what, it's also dangerous to go down this route with tretonin. First it'll be the terminally ill, then it'll be the old, then it'll be hte young so they wont have to worry about the dangers of age and the cycle will perpetuate. And when this happens we wont have the resources to support our booming civialisation and thus people will start dying of starvation and there would likely be a higher crime rate, because that's what happens when civialisations are on the verge of collapse.

It's too dangerous to even consider going down that road because as a race we are to stupid to use it responsibly.

FallenAngelII
February 22nd, 2006, 03:44 AM
You can't really cure the old of their... oldness. Tretonin gives perfect health. Not long-lasting life.

Deevil
February 22nd, 2006, 03:48 AM
yes, but old people get sick - so it will cure their illness and thus create a longer life span. Incredably longer. Because if we couldn't fall victim to the countless pit falls of age, including disease (whether it be heart, lung, cancer); we would have a very long life... Sure, we will still die; but what from if our bodies no longer carry disease as they do now?

FallenAngelII
February 22nd, 2006, 04:04 AM
Yes, but we would still only give Tretonin to those with fatal ilnesses. Or maybe Alzheimers and crap like that.

It wouldn't be like "OMFG! The flu! Tretonin!". With the right protocols and right people in control, we'd be able to defeat currently undefeatable diseases. And so what if it takes over for the immune system? It's synthesizable.

The Tok'ra could just tell us how to synthetize it and we'll do it ourselves. However, if we're not able to do it because we don't have the right chemicals on the planet and said chemicals are really rare and expensive... but otherwise, rock on, I say.

xtremixt
February 22nd, 2006, 04:04 AM
They could defiently do this, but if we run out of it all these patients would be pretty screwed, except they wouldnt die of AIDS or something like that, but of the common flu. There are realworld drugs that allow people with HIV to live out the remainder of their lives.

FallenAngelII
February 22nd, 2006, 04:09 AM
But if we could synthetize it easily with common chemicals and components, WHY would we run out of it?! Besides, the AIDS patients are screwed anyway. Once your body has developed full blown AIDS, it's only a matter of (little) time before you die.

Deevil
February 22nd, 2006, 04:11 AM
Yes, but we would still only give Tretonin to those with fatal ilnesses. Or maybe Alzheimers and crap like that.

It wouldn't be like "OMFG! The flu! Tretonin!". With the right protocols and right people in control, we'd be able to defeat currently undefeatable diseases. And so what if it takes over for the immune system? It's synthesizable.


No you see, it may be first used for only the terminally ill - but no matter the safeguards you put in *everyone* would use it. And our civilisation (and I do mean globally) would not be able to sustain the population boom. By that I mean that if people don't die of illness, any illness, there will be more people alive on this planet, so many many more. And we are not ready for it. It's unsustainable.

Safeguards don't work forever. And with this drug, no one would ever use a safeguard. No safeguard would likely even be created.

But yeah, let's all use it. It only kills your immune system and it can be systhasised, a possible never ending resourse. But what happens when it does run out (because even common chemicals we only have so mcuh of) - when somebody, alien or whatever potentially distroys the means to make it? What happens then?

Ohh yeah, the human race on Earth will die. Not a problem.

xtremixt
February 22nd, 2006, 04:21 AM
people would always ask question of where it came form? Any modern GP would be able to tell you that your Immune system is completely shut down and thet you are supported by this drug. The side effect are too great, and people dont like side effects. Plus, any scientist or geneticist who got their hands on the drug would immediatly start doing their own tets on it and would conclude that the drug is extraterrestrial. The cover wouldnt necessarily be blown but too many questions would be asked. If the gate was public knowledge then it would be ok, because we could tell people where the thing came from. TPTB are going to keep the gate uner wraps forever.

FallenAngelII
February 22nd, 2006, 04:32 AM
We're theorizing how Tretonin could be used. Not how we're supposed to get away with it.

Also, the current Tretonin is synthetized. It's perfectly possible that the drug no longer uses any actual symbiote cells or whatever but is just made out of a lot of chemicals. And I did say that if we were to produce it on Earth, we'd need those chemicals.

knowles2
February 22nd, 2006, 07:41 AM
Even if scientist were able to figure that the drug is exterrestrial origon the drug company which is pruducing the drug would take out a court injuction to stop them releasing any and all information on the drug, also the goverment would probably offer any scientist who found out about it a job to work at the SGC and a chance to study off world technologies and medical knowlege.

Also so teal'c have said that their are thousands of jaffa useing the drug and the fact that they are willing to offer any jaffa the drug seem to tell me that they are able to produce it our selfs or at the very less and stable and growing production capability something I do not thin the tokra have. Also I DR janet was studying the drug to so it possible that they manage to produce it. While the jaffa do not trust us they seem to trust the tokra less and as the tokra were planing to use the drug temp the jaffa to leave their goulds it would of made sense to let some one else who the jaffs at lease trust a bit to produce the drug, also the tokra were always on the move so they would probably not have perminant facilities to produce the drug them selfs and in a reliable way. also their are no reason why the tokra would not tell us how to create it after all they told us how to produce the symbiote poison a weapon which could of been use against them, we know this because the trust seem to have gotten a large supply of it.

Seastallion
March 1st, 2006, 05:03 AM
As I understand it, the Tretonin currently in use is in fact a synthetic version created by the Tok'ra that no longer uses symbiotes in its manufacture. It is also my understanding that the majority of Tretonin being used by the Jaffa is being manufactured on Earth and being distributed out of the SGC. The only limitation in creating it, is the laboratory capacity necessary required to make it. I have neither seen nor heard any evidence that the Jaffa are making Tretonin for themselves, or that they even have the necessary expertise to do so. As to the relationship between Earth and the Tok'ra, it may no longer be as tight as it once was, but there is still at least a distant working relationship. As evidenced earlier in this season, we've apparently been able to acquire certain pieces of Tok'ra technology, and given the SGC's track record, I doubt it was stolen (with the exception of Jacob/Selmak taking a subspace telemetry reciever without permission... but that was an inside job, not the SGC.). We saw and learned from Agent Woolsey that a Tok'ra shield generator was in use, to keep Khalek from escaping. So apparently, the Tau'ri/Tok'ra relationship is not completely in the tank. They just aren't working as closely as they once were, because the Tok'ra numbers are so severly diminished that taking part in Tau'ri style confrontations have become too dangerous for the Tok'ra.

FallenAngelII
March 1st, 2006, 05:05 AM
As I understand it, the Tretonin currently in use is in fact a synthetic version created by the Tok'ra that no longer uses symbiotes in its manufacture. It is also my understanding that the majority of Tretonin being used by the Jaffa is being manufactured on Earth and being distributed out of the SGC. The only limitation in creating it, is the laboratory capacity necessary required to make it. I have neither seen nor heard any evidence that the Jaffa are making Tretonin for themselves, or that they even have the necessary expertise to do so. As to the relationship between Earth and the Tok'ra, it may no longer be as tight as it once was, but there is still at least a distant working relationship. As evidenced earlier in this season, we've apparently been able to acquire certain pieces of Tok'ra technology, and given the SGC's track record, I doubt it was stolen (with the exception of Jacob/Selmak taking a subspace telemetry reciever without permission... but that was an inside job, not the SGC.). We saw and learned from Agent Woolsey that a Tok'ra shield generator was in use, to keep Khalek from escaping. So apparently, the Tau'ri/Tok'ra relationship is not completely in the tank. They just aren't working as closely as they once were, because the Tok'ra numbers are so severly diminished that taking part in Tau'ri style confrontations have become too dangerous for the Tok'ra.

This is what I've been trying to point out for weeks in different threads:
The current Tretonin being made is synthetic. No symbiotes involved!