PDA

View Full Version : wraith VS asurans



Cban
December 12th, 2006, 08:12 AM
if the asurans were ever to encounter the wraith or if information was given to wraith saying something like the atlantians still exist and the cordinates are given to the wraith this could be the perfect wepon to distroy one of the races who do u think would win in such a war ?

Buba uognarf
December 12th, 2006, 08:31 AM
if the asurans were ever to encounter the wraith or if information was given to wraith saying something like the atlantians still exist and the cordinates are given to the wraith this could be the perfect wepon to distroy one of the races who do u think would win in such a war ?

errr....i don't know, Wraith if they had a good supply of food like when the ancients were arounded i doubt the Asurans could handle a couple hundred hive ships:D

right now, depends on the asuran defenses...we may see Wraith vs Asuran later in the season...

to save atlantis in 'First Strike' weir makes a difficult descision, it may be that she informs to Wraith to the Asurans exsistance - though this pure speculation

wise one
December 12th, 2006, 08:48 AM
well asurans can replicate from one tiny nanite and wraith can die so the asurans

Buba uognarf
December 12th, 2006, 08:52 AM
well asurans can replicate from one tiny nanite and wraith can die so the asurans

soooo...the wraith vapourise the nanites i doubt they can resist gigaton level explosions

Cban
December 12th, 2006, 09:09 AM
soooo...the wraith vapourise the nanites i doubt they can resist gigaton level explosions

well they did survive being wiped out by the ancients and they seem to have done alright for them selves

Buba uognarf
December 12th, 2006, 09:11 AM
well they did survive being wiped out by the ancients and they seem to have done alright for them selves

the ancients were firing drones and i doubt the Wraith would be as carless the'd turn the entire planet into a pool of molten rock before letting a race which rivals them/is superior exist

rarocks24
December 12th, 2006, 09:15 AM
soooo...the wraith vapourise the nanites i doubt they can resist gigaton level explosions
Um, dude, the Ancients pretty much used gigaton explosives against the Asurans in "Progeny". Also, the Wraith don't have gigaton level weapons. And if it took years to get the Ancients to surrender, then I surmise it would take many many MANY years in order to wear down 20 ZPMs (Asuras).

The Wraith cannot win for the reason that the Asurans have numbers. They can poison Wraith foodstock, you get all the females, and Wraith society is pretty much dead. The Asurans have an advantage the Ancients didn't, the Wraith are fighting each other.

Buba uognarf
December 12th, 2006, 09:20 AM
Um, dude, the Ancients pretty much used gigaton explosives against the Asurans in "Progeny". Also, the Wraith don't have gigaton level weapons. And if it took years to get the Ancients to surrender, then I surmise it would take many many MANY years in order to wear down 20 ZPMs (Asuras).

The Wraith cannot win for the reason that the Asurans have numbers. They can poison Wraith foodstock, you get all the females, and Wraith society is pretty much dead. The Asurans have an advantage the Ancients didn't, the Wraith are fighting each other.

erm...all i saw was drones being used, so thats all the evidence we have...and the Wraith do have gigaton level/high megaton weapons...this is based on calculations...look at the Wraith hiveship/tech thread...

the ancients had an entire galaxy the Asurans have only 1 known planet if the Wraith threw everything they had at the Asurans they might just win...though i agree in a long drawn out war unless an alternative food source is found the Wraith would lose due to the Asurans being able to employ far more reckless and 'evil' tactics

dannyboy24
December 12th, 2006, 10:26 AM
The ancients designed the asurans to destroy the wraith they (the asurans) decided they didn't want to so should they choose to do so I am sure they could, everything else the ancients designed seem to work pretty well. except the device to draw energy from our own universe.

.jolinar.
December 12th, 2006, 10:39 AM
Id say the Asurans. Aside from the obvous reasons (more technologicly advanced, Large supply of ships/ammo/ZPM's) the Asurans were originally designed to fight the Wraith so they could be way more aggressive toward them than we have seen or they may have other things up their sleve. Besides we know they have a plan to wipe out the Wraith.

wise one
December 12th, 2006, 10:50 AM
so why did the ancients create the wave demolecristion(spelling) weapon or even have really good knowledge of its design, i guessing they used drones to destroy the buildings and level it and pulse waved them a few times but some were inmune and cos nanites are very very tiny the ancients thought they were all gone

Cban
December 12th, 2006, 11:32 AM
so why did the ancients create the wave demolecristion(spelling) weapon or even have really good knowledge of its design, i guessing they used drones to destroy the buildings and level it and pulse waved them a few times but some were inmune and cos nanites are very very tiny the ancients thought they were all gone

i think the ancients tried to make it so that no organic life could survive so the replicators will never be able to regrow by reducing the planet to a molten ruin

thefunkyone
December 12th, 2006, 11:58 AM
Who would win depends on what race can build their tech and armys quicker....

The wraith defeated the ancients out of shear numbers, if the asurans can build their tech faster than the wraith then the wraith will get demolished rather easily....

Cban
December 12th, 2006, 12:45 PM
Who would win depends on what race can build their tech and armys quicker....

The wraith defeated the ancients out of shear numbers, if the asurans can build their tech faster than the wraith then the wraith will get demolished rather easily....

well baseing on your theory then that would mean that the wraith would be the most likely winners because there are all ready set up as the most warable force in pegasus they also have many hive ships at there disposal unlike the asurans who have non(or are building some)

ACharmedAsgard
December 12th, 2006, 01:52 PM
The Asurans would win. The Ancients were more advanced then the Wraith and without their 'do not hurt your creator complex' the Asurans could...

And have as we saw in Return part 2

.....defeat the Ancients. The Ancients created the Asurans to defeat the Wraith, so obviously they must have an advantage. Anyway, asurans can withstand bullets, energy weapons (apart from the disrupter) and other things so fighting them will be pointless. And one advantage for the Wraith was their ability to feed. The Wraith can't feed on the Asurans

Ouroboros
December 12th, 2006, 04:01 PM
The wraith defeated an entire galaxy of ancients when they started with a single planet.

Defeating a single planet of people with ancient tech when they start with an entire galaxy will be laughably easy by comparison.

They're also abnormally good at hacking and even McKay learned how to hack Asurans very easily.

I'll say the same thing I said the last time this thread came up. There's a reason the Asurans have stayed on the single planet and not provoked the wraith for the last 10,000 years.

The Wraith have no reason to come after them because they're not edible. The Asurans are glad for this so they don't rock the boat to tempt their own anihilation.

PG15
December 12th, 2006, 08:29 PM
Well, there is one thing the Asurans can do to win: kill all humans.

No food, no Wraith.

lord-anubis
December 12th, 2006, 09:21 PM
which is why they would win the only reason the asurans didetn kill the warith all ready is cuz they have no reason to.

Kingomon
December 13th, 2006, 06:50 AM
The Asurans have a "plan" for the Wraith.

And the Asurans can make more of themselfs so they could out due the Wraith. There ships are Anceints and it seems they have no trouble building another Cityship and there is more where that came from.

Buba uognarf
December 13th, 2006, 06:59 AM
there is no plan! if they ever planned to destroy the Wraith they would have done it while they were sleeping unless their city only appeared in the last 3 years...

the Asurans have no plan!

Cban
December 13th, 2006, 11:15 AM
there is no plan! if they ever planned to destroy the Wraith they would have done it while they were sleeping unless their city only appeared in the last 3 years...

the Asurans have no plan!

it is true the only reason that they said that they had a plan was so they did not have to help because there only goal is to get revenge on the acients

Ouroboros
December 13th, 2006, 01:28 PM
Well, there is one thing the Asurans can do to win: kill all humans.

No food, no Wraith.

I think that would constitute provocation. Look what happened in Rising when some "new" people just walked around on their feeding grounds.


The Asurans have a "plan" for the Wraith.

And the Asurans can make more of themselfs so they could out due the Wraith. There ships are Anceints and it seems they have no trouble building another Cityship and there is more where that came from.

Like I said in the previous thread that whole scene sounded exactly like a wannabe tough guy trying to back out of a fight while saving face. Or talking crap behind someones back about how tough they were.

"Oh yeah we can kick their asses anytime we want, really. Why don't we? Well we don't feel like it see, yeah we just don't feel like it. They're lucky. If we felt like it they'd be so dead man."

They know they'd get owned if they tried.

PG15
December 13th, 2006, 01:37 PM
I think that would constitute provocation. Look what happened in Rising when some "new" people just walked around on their feeding grounds.



Well yes, of course it's provocation. I thought we were talking about who would win in a war, Asuran or Wraith. I'm saying, if the Asurans really want to win, all they'll need to do is kill all humans.

Buba uognarf
December 13th, 2006, 01:41 PM
Well yes, of course it's provocation. I thought we were talking about who would win in a war, Asuran or Wraith. I'm saying, if the Asurans really want to win, all they'll need to do is kill all humans.

yeah, thats only if tactics are involved:D...in a military sense the Wraith defeated a galaxy of ancients the Asurans have one known world...if the Wraith had enough food the Asurans would be crushed but as it stands the Wraith don't have the unity or the resources(humans) to fight an enemy like the Asurans (they could still crap on the Jaffa though)

Ouroboros
December 13th, 2006, 06:20 PM
Well yes, of course it's provocation. I thought we were talking about who would win in a war, Asuran or Wraith. I'm saying, if the Asurans really want to win, all they'll need to do is kill all humans.

They don't even have a space fleet They're building one in the finale that Earth tries to attack apparently.
so they're going to have a hard time killing evey human left in pegasus. This is assuming that they're even smart enough to think of doing something like that. Given that they're still using the same tech the ancients invented a few million years ago I'd not put them to high on the innovation scale.


yeah, thats only if tactics are involved...in a military sense the Wraith defeated a galaxy of ancients the Asurans have one known world...if the Wraith had enough food the Asurans would be crushed but as it stands the Wraith don't have the unity or the resources(humans) to fight an enemy like the Asurans (they could still crap on the Jaffa though)

How many resources do you really need to glass one planet with orbital strikes?

See my spoiler above about the state of the Asuran military forces. They really do not have a lot of weight to throw around. They're just as outnumbered by the modern Wraith as the ancients were by the oldschool Wraith and they'll loose for largely the same reasons.

One single planet can't hope to hold against a power with an entire galaxy to call upon. (Unless it's named Earth of course:D)

PG15
December 13th, 2006, 07:59 PM
They don't even have a space fleet They're building one in the finale that Earth tries to attack apparently.
so they're going to have a hard time killing evey human left in pegasus. This is assuming that they're even smart enough to think of doing something like that. Given that they're still using the same tech the ancients invented a few million years ago I'd not put them to high on the innovation scale.


They already have a weapon capable of that, namely, themselves. Well, sort of; the nanite virus actually.

If they can dial the gate, send the virus through, and repeat that for every populated planet with a gate, it shouldn't take too long IMHO.

We'll just have to wait until First Strike to see what happens, but we've already seen how fast they can build/rebuild stuff.

Ouroboros
December 13th, 2006, 10:05 PM
They already have a weapon capable of that, namely, themselves. Well, sort of; the nanite virus actually.

If they can dial the gate, send the virus through, and repeat that for every populated planet with a gate, it shouldn't take too long IMHO.

We'll just have to wait until First Strike to see what happens, but we've already seen how fast they can build/rebuild stuff.

Wouldnt work, the nanites have to be spread by contact, probably because they're too heavy to be spread through the air. This is obvious in the episode where Weir gets infected.

If they have to walk up and touch people they mind as well just start shooting them instead. Not exactly the most efficient way to depopulate a galaxy we got here.

PG15
December 13th, 2006, 10:23 PM
Oops, that's right. Forgot about that.

Still, my argument is that the Asurans are in almost all things the same as the Ancients, who were incredibly advanced technologically. However, the one thing they seem to lack is care for biological life, so without ethics like that, IMHO they can build a genocidal weapon in virtually no time.

Kingomon
December 14th, 2006, 04:11 AM
there is no plan! if they ever planned to destroy the Wraith they would have done it while they were sleeping unless their city only appeared in the last 3 years...

the Asurans have no plan!

So for 10 thousand years the Asurans sat on there robotic butts and did nothing. The Fact is though the Wraith have not meesed with them, the wraith are still out there and I'm sure they know the Wraith will want to take them down.
The Fact is I'm sure they have something waiting for the Wraith, they just are not going to use it, but should the wraith come then the Wraith will be there problem.

As I've said even if they don't have a plan, they will still know how to make 75% of the Ancients tec and they could probley make tons of City-ships and they can probley grow in numbers. So the Wraith would be meet with a number=Numbers. The Asurans have a Advantage over the Anceints they can have greater number of themselfs. And if you recall the Anceints won every battle with the Wraith, the only reason they lost was because of the wraith"s number, which has been tossed out the window if they face the Asurans.

akren
December 14th, 2006, 04:31 AM
I am honestly not sure whom might win if the Wraith & Asurans ever went to war - Wraith has superior numbers, but the Asurans have superior tech/Ancient-based tech levels; which, as we know from previous episodes, outstrips that of the Wraith (even if the Wraith have, to qoute the Ancients themsevles, 'technology that rivaled our own').

If it was equal numbers & purely tech vs. tech, I would think the Asurans would win, hands down, for the simple fact that their technology is more advanced (not to mention that the Asurans were programmed with an agressive basecode to outstrip that of the Wraith, & Asuran nanites specifically target Wraith cells/living tissue; as demonstrated in Season 3 of SGA).

If the Asurans did start a war with both the Atlantis expidtion & the Wraith, it might make things a hell of alot more interesting (not to mention dangerous!) for the Pegasus Galaxy at large (especially with the Wraith Civil War going on, the Genni doing their thing, the Atlantis Expidition doing their thing, the Asurans doign their thing, & so & on & so forth) - IMHO, I for one think it would make for a very interesting overall story-arc/plot twist & compelling television; & is definately something I'd like ot see explored in future seasons of SGA!

knowles2
December 14th, 2006, 04:42 AM
Well seeing as rodney manage to reprogram the asurans in a matter of minuter, and given we have seen the wraith quite able at using computer viruses I would have to say the wraoth would simply reprogram the asuran, with their superior knowlege of computer programming they would quickly achieve this.

Wraith Commander
December 14th, 2006, 05:25 AM
How many resources do you really need to glass one planet with orbital strikes?

You seem to be forgetting, they have quite a few ZPMs. It took the Wraith years to siege Atlantis the first time around, and obviously, with no impact to any of the ZPMs. The Asurans have quite a bit more than that, and very clearly they don't have a problem stripping tech for other tech (using their ship to repair the Control Tower).

They also have many many MANY drones. I mean, I highly doubt they're going to let their entire civilization be built up like that and not have the drones to defend it from the likes of the Wraith. The Asurans know they're safe from the Wraith because they know the Wraith aren't as strong as they once were.

We saw how the Wraith fought, several times. The Asurans have an advantage, the Wraith have grown both decadent and arrogant.

Buba uognarf
December 14th, 2006, 07:10 AM
How many resources do you really need to glass one planet with orbital strikes?

See my spoiler above about the state of the Asuran military forces. They really do not have a lot of weight to throw around. They're just as outnumbered by the modern Wraith as the ancients were by the oldschool Wraith and they'll loose for largely the same reasons.

One single planet can't hope to hold against a power with an entire galaxy to call upon. (Unless it's named Earth of course:D)

we don't know about the Asuran defenses for all we know they have dozens of defense satelites...like i said the Wraith don't have the food to supply their large infastructure therefore their numbers are going to be sorely limited in the fight...

the Wraith in all their glory would step on the Asurans but right now they don't have the food to fight a full scale war...unless the Asurans had limited planetary defenses in which case the Wraith would wipe them out in one strike...


So for 10 thousand years the Asurans sat on there robotic butts and did nothing. The Fact is though the Wraith have not meesed with them, the wraith are still out there and I'm sure they know the Wraith will want to take them down.
The Fact is I'm sure they have something waiting for the Wraith, they just are not going to use it, but should the wraith come then the Wraith will be there problem.

no, they rebuilt their society and multiplied but the fact is if they wanted to wipe out the Wraith they would have done so already! it's hard to understand the Wraith sleep for hundreds of years if the Asurans planned to attack them they would have done it while they were sleeping...

The Wraith don't know they exsist otherwise the Asurans would have been destroyed long before they were a threat or they would have both gone to war along time ago...


As I've said even if they don't have a plan, they will still know how to make 75% of the Ancients tec and they could probley make tons of City-ships and they can probley grow in numbers. So the Wraith would be meet with a number=Numbers. The Asurans have a Advantage over the Anceints they can have greater number of themselfs. And if you recall the Anceints won every battle with the Wraith, the only reason they lost was because of the wraith"s number, which has been tossed out the window if they face the Asurans.

it still take time to multiply and having lots of soldiers doesn't really help when you're being bombed from orbit...

the ancients could win almost every battle but they had control of an entire galaxy so it's understandable...the fact is the Wraith won when it counted...


another thing to note is that their could be hundreds of hives active, just because the Wraith woke up doesn't mean all of them got up and went feeding, it was said in an interview with someone involved with atlantis that many hives simply woke up and went back to sleep so we have no idea how many hives are really out there...

kirmit
December 14th, 2006, 07:15 AM
another thing to note is that their could be hundreds of hives active, just because the Wraith woke up doesn't mean all of them got up and went feeding, it was said in an interview with someone involved with atlantis that many hives simply woke up and went back to sleep so we have no idea how many hives are really out there...

lol I can just imagine the wraith hitting the snooze button on their alarm clocks :P. Seriously though if they can simply go back to sleep why wouldn't the other hives do that instead of fighting over food?

Buba uognarf
December 14th, 2006, 07:17 AM
lol I can just imagine the wraith hitting the snooze button on their alarm clocks :P. Seriously though if they can simply go back to sleep why wouldn't the other hives do that instead of fighting over food?

well, maybe some hives were too hungry to go back to sleep...it was mentioned in an interview can't remember which one...

Cban
December 14th, 2006, 09:35 AM
well, maybe some hives were too hungry to go back to sleep...it was mentioned in an interview can't remember which one...

maybe they just need enough strengh to to start sleeping

Jimbo-DR
December 14th, 2006, 04:16 PM
The scene in Progeny when the Asuran City ship lifts off tells much of the Asuran planet. Around the ship itself looks like as far as the eye can see advanced "ancienty" buildings. It looks a lot like the Asgard planet from Season 4.

If they really have that advanced a society I'm betting they have a whole hell of a ton of industrial capability, and they could probably produce a crapload of ships. And remember that the Wraith have been severly diminished in numbers so it wouldn't take hundreds of ships to defeat them.

Øsiris øf the Øri
December 14th, 2006, 06:13 PM
Wouldnt work, the nanites have to be spread by contact, probably because they're too heavy to be spread through the air. This is obvious in the episode where Weir gets infected.

If they have to walk up and touch people they mind as well just start shooting them instead. Not exactly the most efficient way to depopulate a galaxy we got here.


The nanite Virus in Hot Zone was what originally created the Asurans and it was spread through the air. One Replicator can take out a goa'uld mothership as we have seen from sg-1 if a single human form invaded a hive it could infect all teh wraith witht he virus in a few hours and all it would have to do is walk through walls. Thinking about it the Asurans could alter their programing(thanks to mckay) and have a new nanite virus attack the biological components of the hive. Their base program is to destroy the wraith that is why the were invented thats the reason they left the ancients. They are aggresive by nature. Think of The Wriath as Carthage and the Asurans as Rome and look how that turned out. On another note the asurans have millions of human forms to fight with and if those millions worked together they could build a ship in no time at all. Also they can produce ZPM"s and if you rig about 10 zpm's into one Battleship i have an odd feeling that it would be more then enough to cleanse the galaxy of the wraith.

Quest_techie
December 14th, 2006, 10:00 PM
asurans are designed to destroy the wraith, asurans'd win

Kingomon
December 15th, 2006, 05:48 AM
we don't know about the Asuran defenses for all we know they have dozens of defense satelites...like i said the Wraith don't have the food to supply their large infastructure therefore their numbers are going to be sorely limited in the fight...

the Wraith in all their glory would step on the Asurans but right now they don't have the food to fight a full scale war...unless the Asurans had limited planetary defenses in which case the Wraith would wipe them out in one strike...



no, they rebuilt their society and multiplied but the fact is if they wanted to wipe out the Wraith they would have done so already! it's hard to understand the Wraith sleep for hundreds of years if the Asurans planned to attack them they would have done it while they were sleeping...

The Wraith don't know they exsist otherwise the Asurans would have been destroyed long before they were a threat or they would have both gone to war along time ago...



it still take time to multiply and having lots of soldiers doesn't really help when you're being bombed from orbit...

the ancients could win almost every battle but they had control of an entire galaxy so it's understandable...the fact is the Wraith won when it counted...


another thing to note is that their could be hundreds of hives active, just because the Wraith woke up doesn't mean all of them got up and went feeding, it was said in an interview with someone involved with atlantis that many hives simply woke up and went back to sleep so we have no idea how many hives are really out there...
If you have Bug spray do you use it on bugs that are not bothering you.

And The Wraith attacked Atlantis and we survived with one ZPM. The Asurans have tos of ZPMs and the Asurans Probley have tons of Drones at there disposal. So While the Shield is up they launch Drones to deal with the Wraith. Since Drones go threw Shields it would pass threw the Shield.

Mister Oragahn
December 15th, 2006, 12:59 PM
Realistically, if the Asurans had any form of tactiacl intelligence, they could easily use their replicating abilities and their technology to create plenty of ships and airbone viruses within days.
But they don't seem too. They're quite different to the replicators in that way.

On the other hand, it's quite possible that the Asurans never acted to their full potential. They were devised as a weapon to match the Wraith, mostly on the number issue.
If the Asurans really go ballisitc and start to both build lantian based weapons of doom and specialized viruses, coupled to ZPMs and else, the Wraith and their organic tech are going to get pretty much raped in the blink of an eye.

Now, the Asurans had some kind of integrated backdoors in their programming, and the Wraith are hugely good hackers and very good at creating intrusive AIs. It's possible that is what frightens the Asurans, because one single trojan could actually disable all their "race" at once.

Besides, the Wraith might show some hidden ressources and start to use their incredible psychic powers that can range over entire lightyears when used in groups for other things that mere chat lounges.

I and many other fans believe we've only seen a very small portion of the real Wraith. That, mostly because what the Wraith achieved millenia ago hardly fits with what they've actually shown to possess and be able to do recently. It clearly does not add up.

Exiled Master
December 18th, 2006, 05:53 PM
Asurans have all the technology of the Ancients and more. :wraith: are more resilient then the Ancients and have demonstrated formidable intrusion abilities. The Asurans are immune to the :wraith: life-sucking. Asurans would win, if they weren't given reprogramming. So they would only have to turn off their most of their communication systems and then start shooting.

helio9
December 18th, 2006, 11:43 PM
This has likely already been said, but the Asurans are not the Wraith. They have agression that was meant to be superior even to the wraith.

Their human form is only one possible configuration for the replicators. If they are able to form other shapes like the milkyway replicators, they would easily destroy the Wraith if they chose to. The Ancients were probably going for a surrender from the Wraith, and were probably averse to using WMDs and acts of mass genocide, even of the Wraith. If this is true, the Asurans will have no such compunction.

Also, on if it came down to it, what would the wraith really do to them in close quarters combat? Their stun weapons would likely only feed them, and in hand to hand combat i think its safe to say that even a wraith wouldn't be able to beat up a replicator. I mean even if the wraith has massive strength etc, the replicator can't get hurt. He'll just keep coming back until he gets a good hit in. If Ronon (being an exceptional human) can fight a Wraith, the Asurans will have no trouble whatsoever.

One other detail is that the Asurans can probably probe the Wraith's minds. Even if it takes a little more effort, if all they really need is one Wraith from which they can try to break into the Wraith telepathic network and gain loads of intel.

While it is unlikely that the Asurans have the kind of numbers the Wraith did when they defeated the Ancients, they won't need them because the Wraith are no longer that numerous either. In season 1 in one of the Genii eps, it was revealed that the Wraith only have 60 hive ships. Even if that number is 200 by now (unlikely), I don't see the Asurans being defeated by the wraith. Especially if they choose to act like milky way replicators and start replicating on other planets.

As far as I can see, Asurans > Wraith.

err...QED.

Also, since they're not currently interacting in any way (that we know of), I don't think we have anything to lose by inciting a conflict between them. Both of them want us dead, and both are doing it independently. Why not soften them up a bit by having them go at each other.

Ouroboros
December 19th, 2006, 07:04 PM
Here's one to think about. Everyoes talking about how the Asurans will infect the Wraith with some sort of deadly nanoplague and kill them all.

What if it happens the other way around?

We know for a fact that the Asuran nanomachines can be destroyed by simple white blood cells. They almost killed Weir only because her blood cells didn't know to attack the nanomachines. Once that changed the supposed uberbots got owned by a simple bog standard human immune system.

If these ultra deadly killer nanobots can be killed by Weir's white blood cells what's to stop the Wriath from cooking up some sort of nanobot specific bacteria or something that eats them alive? With the level of biotechnology the Wraith have it's well into the realm of foolishness to think they couldn't come up with something worse than a white blood cell. Based on Weir's survival I have serious doubts as to whether or not an Asuran nanomachine infection would even be a credible threat to a Wraith body. It's not like humans are the more resilient of the two species.

The Asurans were an unfinished project. The fact they have glaring flaws and weaknesses like this only makes that more and more obvious. They are NOT the MW replicators that destroyed the Asguard empire, they are grossly grossly infearior.

helio9
December 19th, 2006, 07:16 PM
Here's one to think about. Everyoes talking about how the Asurans will infect the Wraith with some sort of deadly nanoplague and kill them all.

What if it happens the other way around?

We know for a fact that the Asuran nanomachines can be destroyed by simple white blood cells. They almost killed Weir only because her blood cells didn't know to attack the nanomachines. Once that changed the supposed uberbots got owned by a simple bog standard human immune system.

If these ultra deadly killer nanobots can be killed by Weir's white blood cells what's to stop the Wriath from cooking up some sort of nanobot specific bacteria or something that eats them alive? With the level of biotechnology the Wraith have it's well into the realm of foolishness to think they couldn't come up with something worse than a white blood cell. Based on Weir's survival I have serious doubts as to whether or not an Asuran nanomachine infection would even be a credible threat to a Wraith body. It's not like humans are the more resilient of the two species.

The Asurans were an unfinished project. The fact they have glaring flaws and weaknesses like this only makes that more and more obvious. They are NOT the MW replicators that destroyed the Asguard empire, they are grossly grossly infearior.
They could likely defeat them without "infecting" them. You're right about the infections not being all that effective. With a wraith type immune system, I doubt it would do much.

Recall that the Ancients could "win every battle, but not win the war". The Asurans are as advanced as the Ancients. With the wraith in their current inferior numbers, I don't think the Asurans would have that much trouble destroying them if they were so inclined.

Buba uognarf
December 20th, 2006, 02:53 AM
They could likely defeat them without "infecting" them. You're right about the infections not being all that effective. With a wraith type immune system, I doubt it would do much.

Recall that the Ancients could "win every battle, but not win the war". The Asurans are as advanced as the Ancients. With the wraith in their current inferior numbers, I don't think the Asurans would have that much trouble destroying them if they were so inclined.

It was almost every battle and that doesn't mean the ancients didn't lose ships infact they probably did have massive casulties otherwise with an entire galaxy at their disposal and the Wraith only in control of one the war would have been over very quickly...

now the roles are reversed the Wraith have an entire galaxy and the Asurans have one planet and precious few ships according to what we know

Kingomon
December 20th, 2006, 05:52 AM
The Wraith had the advantage of numbers which the reason the Wraith won because they outlasted the Ancients. But now we have a race as Advanced as the Ancients and probley can replcate. So the Wraith won't be able to out last thsi time around. So they will lose every battle until they have no more left. After all as Thor said on Tuesday's episode the Replicators had an Advantage "They don't sleep". What I'm saying is Machines don't have the limitations that living things have. Sleep, Food/Life force, Water, and other things we need while they do not require it.

helio9
December 20th, 2006, 01:59 PM
It was almost every battle and that doesn't mean the ancients didn't lose ships infact they probably did have massive casulties otherwise with an entire galaxy at their disposal and the Wraith only in control of one the war would have been over very quickly...

now the roles are reversed the Wraith have an entire galaxy and the Asurans have one planet and precious few ships according to what we know
It wouldn't be the same. The Asurans can likely build ships faster than the Ancients could have. Besides, we havnt really seen an Atlantis-type city-ship in combat yet, but we do know this - the shield can take anything the Wraith can throw at them. And if they can manufacture drones (likely, since they can manufacture ZPMs), their kill ratios will be so high that it won't matter that they're outnumbered.

Besides, they are replicators. Its what they do best. Its like the US just before WW2. The US military wasn't even in the top 10 in the world before WW2. But the US had superior industrial capacity and were able to catch up and exceed everyone else by the end of the war.
The Asurans may not have a huge fleet right now, if theres anybody the Wraith should be worried about...it's them.

dss202529
December 20th, 2006, 04:13 PM
But the US had superior industrial capacity and were able to catch up and exceed everyone else by the end of the war.
The Asurans may not have a huge fleet right now, if theres anybody the Wraith should be worried about...it's them.

The Asurans are emulating the ancients right now, but if they ever decided to use their nanoscale manufacturing capabilites to their fullest extent they could destroy the wraith with comparitive ease, all they need to replicate is energy and raw materials, energy they have in abundance as they can manufacture ZPM's. A replicator can probably use almost any type of material to replicate from, although they prefer refined materials as they don't have as many manufacturing steps I would assume.

But say for example they decided to convert the raw material of a single earth size planet into more replicators and ancient warships, they have ZPM's and can build more, therefore, they have the energy to do it, we saw how quickly they rebuilt the tower.

Now I don't have the faintest idea how many Ancient warships you can build from an Earth size planet, but I'd imagine it's an awful lot...you could then take it a bit further say for example the materials in a single Jupiter sized gas giant, or a solar system...that's the potential level of manufacturing capability the Asurans could bring into any fight with the Wraith, the outcome would be a forgone conclusion.

helio9
December 20th, 2006, 07:50 PM
Yeah. If nothing else, they can hold out against the wraith indefinately. Also, their lack of conscience and nano-scale abilities give them a lot of options.

Although these guys are a lot different from the MW replicators. the MW ones have a simple mission - to increase their number. The Asurans seem to have more...metaphysical goals.

Ouroboros
December 20th, 2006, 07:52 PM
Recall that the Ancients could "win every battle, but not win the war". The Asurans are as advanced as the Ancients. With the wraith in their current inferior numbers, I don't think the Asurans would have that much trouble destroying them if they were so inclined.

That quote can't be taken literally since we know that the Lantians did loose many battles to the Wraith. There was one where a huge chunk of their "most powerful warships" got destroyed and another one where the Tria was run off and irreparably damaged by nothing but Wraith cruisers when it even had a ZPM on board. Who knows how many countless other defeats they suffered in the course of loosing an entire galaxy to an adversary who started with only one planet.

I don't know what their definition of losing is but it obviously bares little resemblance to the dictionary definition of losing. When you get run out of an entire galaxy by an opposing military force after they've destroyed almost all your assets except one single city and a few scattered bits of wreckage.... I'd call that loosing, big time.

That's like if Iran invaded the US and a few paltry survivors were able to flee to Canada after everything but DC itself was sacked and burned. Did the US "lose" to Iran in that war or not?

Now as for the Asurans they don't even have a fleet. The Wraith can sit in orbit and toss asteroids or hive barrages at them for YEARS if that's what it takes.

Unlike Atlantis they have no need to take the Asuran city intact. They can go all out and just wreck the hell out of it.

helio9
December 20th, 2006, 08:11 PM
It's unlikely that they would allow themselves to cornered on their own planet given their highly agressive nature. I think at least part of the cause of the Ancient's defeat was what I like to call "Asgard syndrome", ie being too smart to think strategically. The Asurans, having been designed for war, are unlikely to suffer from that.

Even if they managed to get cornered on their own planet, their tech is essentially equivalent to the Ancients. They could sit their and devise a plan. The Ancients for tired of fighting and went away. The Asurans are also unlikely to suffer from combat fatigue or low morale.

Basically what I'm saying is that in the unlikely scenario that the Asurans got themselves cornered on their own planet, their lack of conscience, combined with their natural advantages would still allow them to eventually prevail.

Ouroboros
December 20th, 2006, 11:49 PM
Prevail how?

I've heard a lot of talk about how the Asurans are supposedly so uber that they're going to win when a force likely thousands of times their size with the same technologly lost but I've yet to hear how.

The points about them being less likely to flee or surrender are valid but hardly equate to an automatic victory. In a stalemate situation like that it's just as likely that the Wraith will find some means of screwing them over. Given how wide open they evidently are to being hacked remotely and how good the Wraith are at hacking I find that outcome infinitely more likely.

We've seen the Asurans demonstrate several glaring weaknesses that could easily be exploited by any adversary.

The nanoprobes that make up their bodies are apparently very easy to destroy when attacked on the microscopic level.

The security on whatever network they use to communicate with each other is laughable. It's possible to give them instructions via a remote signal that override their behaviour and best interests. It's even possible to re-write the core base code of their entire species in this same fashion. The latter implies that a Wraith sitting at a terminal somewhere (maybe with a single captured asuran) could literally reprogram their entire species remotely to do nothing but give handjobs and make icecream.

If McKay can do it it would be very questionable to think that a species with thousands of years experience dealing with ancient technology couldn't do at least the same.

Buba uognarf
December 21st, 2006, 02:11 AM
It's unlikely that they would allow themselves to cornered on their own planet given their highly agressive nature. I think at least part of the cause of the Ancient's defeat was what I like to call "Asgard syndrome", ie being too smart to think strategically. The Asurans, having been designed for war, are unlikely to suffer from that.

Even if they managed to get cornered on their own planet, their tech is essentially equivalent to the Ancients. They could sit their and devise a plan. The Ancients for tired of fighting and went away. The Asurans are also unlikely to suffer from combat fatigue or low morale.


THE ANCIENTS DID NOT GET TIRED OF FIGHTING!!!! they couldn't win the war because the wraith kicked their butts across the galaxy and back to Atlantis they were sieged and unable to possibly win so they ran away...

the Wraith over ran an entire galaxy of ancients and all the infastructure along with it starting from a single planet

ACharmedAsgard
December 21st, 2006, 08:16 AM
The Ancients lost because they were outnumbered, we all know that

helio9
December 21st, 2006, 02:44 PM
Prevail how?

I've heard a lot of talk about how the Asurans are supposedly so uber that they're going to win when a force likely thousands of times their size with the same technologly lost but I've yet to hear how.


It's not a matter of them being 'uber'. In season 1, it was clearly stated that the Wraith, at that time, were down to only 60 hive ships. The Atlantis expedition themselves destroyed several of them. Even if the Wraith have been building them like crazy, they will never be able to build up the ratio they needed to defeat the Ancients.

And like it has been stated before, the Ancients tried to destroy them (in their patented half-assed way:rolleyes:). They only reason they stood there and took it was because they weren't allowed to fight back against them.

Like it has been stated above, the main weakness of the Asuran replicators apprears to be that their sole concern is not just self-replication. If they are capable of any strategic, tactical thought (which they should have been designed for), they can simple send one of their people to another planet and start replicating there. What would the Wraith do to stop them if they sent one of their 'people' to say, 500 planets?

Like I said earlier, the only way they can really get defeated is if they fall victim to 'Asgard syndrome' (ie being to smart to think).

Purple Yin
December 21st, 2006, 04:04 PM
I say the wraith get deadified pretty quickly if they fought the asurans.

Ouroboros
December 21st, 2006, 10:48 PM
It's not a matter of them being 'uber'. In season 1, it was clearly stated that the Wraith, at that time, were down to only 60 hive ships. The Atlantis expedition themselves destroyed several of them. Even if the Wraith have been building them like crazy, they will never be able to build up the ratio they needed to defeat the Ancients.

The 60 hiveships just comes from what they could track on that device they found. Given that we now know the Wraith are tribal in nature and divided into factions (we didn't then) I find it extremely unlikely that that device held the location of every hiveship, regardless of faction, in Pegasus. More likely it was just the hives from that particular tribe that were logged. It also didn't track cruisers apparently so it's obvious that it's not tracking everything.


And like it has been stated before, the Ancients tried to destroy them (in their patented half-assed way:rolleyes:). They only reason they stood there and took it was because they weren't allowed to fight back against them.

The Ancients fought back fully against the Wraith though, and they were defeated, soundly.


Like it has been stated above, the main weakness of the Asuran replicators apprears to be that their sole concern is not just self-replication. If they are capable of any strategic, tactical thought (which they should have been designed for), they can simple send one of their people to another planet and start replicating there. What would the Wraith do to stop them if they sent one of their 'people' to say, 500 planets?

Hack them because they're all still interconnected and hilariously vulnerable to it? That's assuming they can even replicate in that same fashion. Aside from them being compared to the replicators we've seen no evidence that they can even replicate at all, let alone as well as the MW replicators.

It also raises the practical question of why they haven't just gone ahead and done this sometime during the past 10,000 years if they really were capable of winning so easily.

Øsiris øf the Øri
December 22nd, 2006, 03:25 AM
The 60 hiveships just comes from what they could track on that device they found. Given that we now know the Wraith are tribal in nature and divided into factions (we didn't then) I find it extremely unlikely that that device held the location of every hiveship, regardless of faction, in Pegasus. More likely it was just the hives from that particular tribe that were logged. It also didn't track cruisers apparently so it's obvious that it's not tracking everything.



The Ancients fought back fully against the Wraith though, and they were defeated, soundly.



Hack them because they're all still interconnected and hilariously vulnerable to it? That's assuming they can even replicate in that same fashion. Aside from them being compared to the replicators we've seen no evidence that they can even replicate at all, let alone as well as the MW replicators.

It also raises the practical question of why they haven't just gone ahead and done this sometime during the past 10,000 years if they really were capable of winning so easily.


The Wraith didn't have a tribal nature until they started killing each other for new worlds to cull. So I would say that the estimate of 50 is very good. Also if they started out with hundreds of hives the war with the ancients would have devastated them no matter what. The Arcuturus weapon alone took out at least a dozen large sized ships, the dozens of sattilites probably took down their share as well. The ancients didn't lose because their technology was inferior they lost becuase they fought an enemy which AT THAT TIME could keep coming. We know now from "Allies" and other wraith related episodes that only a few keepers remain to repair the hives and they have tken sides in the civil war. The Hives get infected with radiation from hyperspace for gods sake. The Wraith are like cavemen with aircraft carriers. They know how to use them but can't comprehend the technology they are dealing with. The Ancients were never beaten because their tech was weaker they lost because they were outgunned. Rome vs. the Germans crossing the Rhine if you will. So stop acting Like you know everything about stargate, because obviously you have a pro wraith view and are as biased as everyone here.

The Observer
December 22nd, 2006, 06:18 AM
Thats rubbish if the Asurans were able to get one person on to each Hive they could destroy it, plus the Ancients were rubbish when it came to war they were scientists. What do you think a single Ancient replicator Upgraded cityship could do, one could own all the Ori forces in the milky way wraith have reduced food and numbers wouuld be stuffed.

Buba uognarf
December 22nd, 2006, 06:29 AM
Thats rubbish if the Asurans were able to get one person on to each Hive they could destroy it, plus the Ancients were rubbish when it came to war they were scientists. What do you think a single Ancient replicator Upgraded cityship could do, one could own all the Ori forces in the milky way wraith have reduced food and numbers wouuld be stuffed.

what are you talking about? the ancients were not all scientists that obviously had a military this has been shown many times! It annoys me how people inisist that the ancients were all scientists...do honestly think that an entire galaxy full of ancients wouldn't have large numbers of tactical thinkers and military personel?

the Asurans are not the Replicators we have no evidence to suggest they can upgrade ships in the same way the SG-1 versions could....

the Asurans don't exactly have a large fleet anyway...

The Observer
December 22nd, 2006, 06:57 AM
Fair point my bad

Buba uognarf
December 22nd, 2006, 07:13 AM
Fair point my bad

sorry for getting emotional:) i just get annoyed when people assume that a universal super power and a race millions of years old who control an entire galaxy of probably billions didn't have strategic thinkers etc...

just because it's the scientists who we see desperately building the advanced weapons to fight the Wraith doesn't mean the military is fighting a conventional war against the Wraith in rest of the galaxy...

Ouroboros
December 22nd, 2006, 01:21 PM
The Wraith didn't have a tribal nature until they started killing each other for new worlds to cull.

The tribes existed, there was simply peace between them. When food ran short the peace broke down and they divided along tribal lines for the civil war. It was just the civil war that made it obvious to the human observers that these divisions, sort of like Wraith nations, actually existed.


So I would say that the estimate of 50 is very good.

I disagree. I find it very unlikely that a single device the size of a hand would hold data on every Wraith ship, sleeping or awake and regardless of faction, in the whole galaxy. Like I said before we already know that it apparently didn't even track cruisers so jumping to the conclusion that it did track every hiveship just not anything else is somewhat dubious.

50 ships isn't going to hold down a whole galaxy. 50 ships with the types of crew sizes we're seeing would mean that the Wraith probably have a population of significatly less than 1 million. That seems off given how much of a big deal is made about how badly they supposedly outnumbered the ancients. It also seems off given how they can't seem to feed themselves despite a whole galaxy full of human prey, including large heavily populated worlds like the one seen in condemned.


Also if they started out with hundreds of hives the war with the ancients would have devastated them no matter what.

They seem to have started out with 0 hives. They really need to get into the wraith backstory and the start of the war more. As it sits now the Wraith supposedly started with one world where the ancients found them and then spread an defeated them all.


The Arcuturus weapon alone took out at least a dozen large sized ships, the dozens of sattilites probably took down their share as well.

I've just been looking at caps of Trinity and I can tell you there's nowhere near enough wreckage in that episode to account for dozens of 11km long Wraith hiveships.

The satellites are an unknown but given how easily they're also destroyed by hives shooting back at them I don't think they were racking up huge kill counts either.


The ancients didn't lose because their technology was inferior they lost becuase they fought an enemy which AT THAT TIME could keep coming. We know now from "Allies" and other wraith related episodes that only a few keepers remain to repair the hives and they have tken sides in the civil war. The Hives get infected with radiation from hyperspace for gods sake. The Wraith are like cavemen with aircraft carriers. They know how to use them but can't comprehend the technology they are dealing with. The Ancients were never beaten because their tech was weaker they lost because they were outgunned. Rome vs. the Germans crossing the Rhine if you will. So stop acting Like you know everything about stargate, because obviously you have a pro wraith view and are as biased as everyone here.

We know four things.

-The Wraith defeated a galaxy full of ancients, maybe even when they only started with 1 planet.

-The Asurans (despite numerous people's attempts to give them the same powers as the Replicators from SG-1) are more or less just like the Ancients with a few new tricks that are hardly game breaking. They also have several glaring weaknesses though, some of which seem perfect for the Wraith especially to exploit.

-The Asurans have one planet

-Planets are a lot smaller than Galaxies

Does that make it obvious enough for you?

I know Stargate is a show based on the premise of a single planet repeatedly taking on and defeating galaxy spanning empires, but without the heroic "go Urth" shield of plot to protect them, the Asurans aren't going to fare so well in their version of that ridiculous mismatch.

Mister Oragahn
December 23rd, 2006, 02:04 AM
The Wraith didn't have a tribal nature until they started killing each other for new worlds to cull. So I would say that the estimate of 50 is very good. Also if they started out with hundreds of hives the war with the ancients would have devastated them no matter what. The Arcuturus weapon alone took out at least a dozen large sized ships, the dozens of sattilites probably took down their share as well. The ancients didn't lose because their technology was inferior they lost becuase they fought an enemy which AT THAT TIME could keep coming. We know now from "Allies" and other wraith related episodes that only a few keepers remain to repair the hives and they have tken sides in the civil war. The Hives get infected with radiation from hyperspace for gods sake. The Wraith are like cavemen with aircraft carriers. They know how to use them but can't comprehend the technology they are dealing with. The Ancients were never beaten because their tech was weaker they lost because they were outgunned. Rome vs. the Germans crossing the Rhine if you will. So stop acting Like you know everything about stargate, because obviously you have a pro wraith view and are as biased as everyone here.

Not only does it seem that you do not listen to people's points at all, but you actually come with numbers without backing them up. Incidentally, looking at your arguments, I'm led to believe that Ouroboros does know a few more things than you actually do.
You realize that admiting that the Lantians had a devastating superior edge in terms of technology, so much that even a crippled satellite gun powered by a mere human made naqahdah reactor could still instantly shoot down an entire hiveship had enough power to shoot at least two more, the only way for these guys to loose, is to actually be overwhelmed by numbers which are far beyond the show even hinted at.
Plus, don't even think about pulling that bad strategy excuse. The edge in tech the Lantians had means that even with "caveman" charging tactics, they would have easily won.
Let's also remember that these often dubbed pacifists Lantians actually developped two different warship classes and tried to wipe out an entire race of beings without a second thought.

Cban
December 23rd, 2006, 05:09 AM
The tribes existed, there was simply peace between them. When food ran short the peace broke down and they divided along tribal lines for the civil war. It was just the civil war that made it obvious to the human observers that these divisions, sort of like Wraith nations, actually existed.



I disagree. I find it very unlikely that a single device the size of a hand would hold data on every Wraith ship, sleeping or awake and regardless of faction, in the whole galaxy. Like I said before we already know that it apparently didn't even track cruisers so jumping to the conclusion that it did track every hiveship just not anything else is somewhat dubious.

50 ships isn't going to hold down a whole galaxy. 50 ships with the types of crew sizes we're seeing would mean that the Wraith probably have a population of significatly less than 1 million. That seems off given how much of a big deal is made about how badly they supposedly outnumbered the ancients. It also seems off given how they can't seem to feed themselves despite a whole galaxy full of human prey, including large heavily populated worlds like the one seen in condemned.



They seem to have started out with 0 hives. They really need to get into the wraith backstory and the start of the war more. As it sits now the Wraith supposedly started with one world where the ancients found them and then spread an defeated them all.



I've just been looking at caps of Trinity and I can tell you there's nowhere near enough wreckage in that episode to account for dozens of 11km long Wraith hiveships.

The satellites are an unknown but given how easily they're also destroyed by hives shooting back at them I don't think they were racking up huge kill counts either.



We know four things.

-The Wraith defeated a galaxy full of ancients, maybe even when they only started with 1 planet.

-The Asurans (despite numerous people's attempts to give them the same powers as the Replicators from SG-1) are more or less just like the Ancients with a few new tricks that are hardly game breaking. They also have several glaring weaknesses though, some of which seem perfect for the Wraith especially to exploit.

-The Asurans have one planet

-Planets are a lot smaller than Galaxies

Does that make it obvious enough for you?

I know Stargate is a show based on the premise of a single planet repeatedly taking on and defeating galaxy spanning empires, but without the heroic "go Urth" shield of plot to protect them, the Asurans aren't going to fare so well in their version of that ridiculous mismatch.

i see your point with the wraith but remember the asurans have been waiting for thousands of years of all we know there entire planet might be shielded but many zpms after all they are based on ancirnts whos to say that they havent applied there knowledge on a much larger scale which they have already done with the massive city which seems to cover a lot of the surface of the planet and most likely they will of waqnted it protected so this makes sense that they will have th eplanet shielded so if they have survived on that planet for so long .even if they do become undersiege they can easily build a fleet under the shields and will most likey win

ACharmedAsgard
December 23rd, 2006, 12:56 PM
i see your point with the wraith but remember the asurans have been waiting for thousands of years of all we know there entire planet might be shielded but many zpms after all they are based on ancirnts whos to say that they havent applied there knowledge on a much larger scale which they have already done with the massive city which seems to cover a lot of the surface of the planet and most likely they will of waqnted it protected so this makes sense that they will have th eplanet shielded so if they have survived on that planet for so long .even if they do become undersiege they can easily build a fleet under the shields and will most likey win
That Idea actually has merit. It wouldn't be suprising if they did that

Ouroboros
December 23rd, 2006, 04:25 PM
i see your point with the wraith but remember the asurans have been waiting for thousands of years of all we know there entire planet might be shielded but many zpms after all they are based on ancirnts whos to say that they havent applied there knowledge on a much larger scale which they have already done with the massive city which seems to cover a lot of the surface of the planet and most likely they will of waqnted it protected so this makes sense that they will have th eplanet shielded so if they have survived on that planet for so long .even if they do become undersiege they can easily build a fleet under the shields and will most likey win

It's still only one planet though and the ancients could have done the same thing.

I don't doubt that the Asuran planet will represent a very difficult nut to crack. Depending on how much shielding they have the planet could very well be a fortress. That being said though the Wraith don't have to take it intact this time. They can do something indiscriminately destructive like throw massive asteroids at the shields or come up with some sort of technobabble to blow the whole planet up. They might even be able to use a ZPM of their own to do it. I'm sure they probably have more than a few stocked away from the Ancient war somewhere or could get something comperable without too much difficulty.

Then there's the whole question of whether or not the Asurans could simply be hacked, making all their defences pointless.

The Asurans are at a big disadvanatage in this fight because everything they've got, even if it is more powerful, (and it is) is so concentrated in a single place. This means that in order to defeat them all the wraith need to do is come up with a way to destroy that one planet. The Asurans on the other hand will have to hunt down who knows how many individual hives spread all over the galaxy. All the Wraith infastructure seems to be completely mobile with no permanent fixed targets to attack. This would make them a very tedious and irritating opponent to fight, especially when it's combined with the fact that they can hivemind with each other over interstellar distances.

Say you find out that they've got a bunch of hives parked in X system and are using it as a sort of factory/staging area for attacks against you. You send your fleet to attack it and encounter a cruiser on the way which you destroy easily or which flees. When you get to where the hives are supposed to be they're gone because they've been warned and just up and left. You've sent your ships out into the middle of nowhere for no reason.

That could get irritating after a while. It's only going to be exasterbated by the fact they outnumber you to.

Jimbo-DR
December 24th, 2006, 02:59 PM
Not only does it seem that you do not listen to people's points at all, but you actually come with numbers without backing them up. Incidentally, looking at your arguments, I'm led to believe that Ouroboros does know a few more things than you actually do.
You realize that admiting that the Lantians had a devastating superior edge in terms of technology, so much that even a crippled satellite gun powered by a mere human made naqahdah reactor could still instantly shoot down an entire hiveship had enough power to shoot at least two more, the only way for these guys to loose, is to actually be overwhelmed by numbers which are far beyond the show even hinted at.
Plus, don't even think about pulling that bad strategy excuse. The edge in tech the Lantians had means that even with "caveman" charging tactics, they would have easily won.
Let's also remember that these often dubbed pacifists Lantians actually developped two different warship classes and tried to wipe out an entire race of beings without a second thought.

I completely agree with that. Every piece of Ancient Technology we've ever seen has been vastly superior to everything around it, and mere bits and pieces of their old weaponry has or help saved us a couple different times.

Off the top of my head I remember two occasions in our time period that the Wraith encountered Ancient weaponry, and on both occasions it proved instantly fatal for them. The Satellite weapon, and Orions drones were both able to destroy a Hive ship without any difficulty at all. And we know that the Weapon left on the planet from the Arctrus project decimated an entire fleet of Hive ships.
It was by sheer numbers that they overcame this clear technological advantage.

Cban
December 25th, 2006, 10:15 AM
I completely agree with that. Every piece of Ancient Technology we've ever seen has been vastly superior to everything around it, and mere bits and pieces of their old weaponry has or help saved us a couple different times.

Off the top of my head I remember two occasions in our time period that the Wraith encountered Ancient weaponry, and on both occasions it proved instantly fatal for them. The Satellite weapon, and Orions drones were both able to destroy a Hive ship without any difficulty at all. And we know that the Weapon left on the planet from the Arctrus project decimated an entire fleet of Hive ships.
It was by sheer numbers that they overcame this clear technological advantage.

that is exactly why the ancients lost the war overconfidence in there technology and there ignorace led to there eventual downfall

Ouroboros
December 25th, 2006, 09:48 PM
that is exactly why the ancients lost the war overconfidence in there technology and there ignorace led to there eventual downfall

No kidding. Everyone always talks about who's "more advanced" as if who's got the fanciest trinkets were the only measure of victory in a hypothetical war.

Cban
December 26th, 2006, 08:43 AM
its not about who has the best tech its how well they use it and how well they are at fighting and tactics

Mister Oragahn
December 26th, 2006, 10:14 AM
its not about who has the best tech its how well they use it and how well they are at fighting and tactics

But again, that "bad tactics" argument is wearing very thin, because I can't see how extremely dumb you believe the Ancients were that even with their fancy toys they couldn't kick Wraith ass twice in a day.

Wraith are nomads? Send probes all across the galaxy. Send cloaked PJs.
Check planets where you know there are population centres to be culled.
Put beacons here and there.
Etc.

Is that a form of high strategy... the simple idea of getting proper intel?
No, it is not. It's extremely sub basic. It's plain and simple "look to know".
The Lantians even populated the Pegasus galaxy during the life seeding campaign. Don't tell me they didn't have decent survey systems already in place all across the galaxy.

No, the deal is that you have writers who don't want to bother with Wraith anymore, since they already admitted prefering playing with the Assurans, and didn't think a lot about the implications of the demonstrations of sheer power and mercyless wraith crushing we've seen during three seasons.

Ouroboros
December 26th, 2006, 01:40 PM
It's interesting to consider also the differences in species (Alterran Vs Wraith) both phychologically and physically. Ancients are more or less humans with the same mental frailties and more or less the same physical limitations. In other words you won't be seeing ancient grannies out there on the front lines weilding bazookas.

With the Wraith their entire species, with the exception of perhaps very young children, is capable of fighting in a war. Any given human/Alterran population will only have a small percentage of its number that's actually fit for military service, an even smaller percentage of that that's ideal. With the Wraith the percentage is way way higher, approaching 100%. Virtually every single one of them can be given a rifle and some basic training and realistically expected to be able to kill enemy soldiers effectively and endure the rigors, both physical and psychological, of a life at war.

The numbers of people they can throw into any hypothetical war are limited, more or less, only by the numbers that need to stay home and run the various support infastructure.

Acidbuk
December 26th, 2006, 10:42 PM
The Anchients were FAR Supirior to the Wraith Technoloically; they lost because they grossly underestimated the enemy and were damn arrogent *astards. they also seemed to lack any kind of military stratagy; they seemed to focus on "Containing" the Wraith or getting them to back down than taking them out; also most of the Races in pegasus were under the protection of the anchients not under there control. So protecting ALL there allies and colonies probably strenched them a bit thin.

the Asurans have one planet to defend; and if they can destoy hives as fast as they arrive; then the Wraith will quickly run out of Hives.

HAL
December 27th, 2006, 05:05 AM
the ancients themselfs could kill every hive that came at atlantis but the wraith kept coming

rarocks24
December 27th, 2006, 05:21 AM
Here's one to think about. Everyoes talking about how the Asurans will infect the Wraith with some sort of deadly nanoplague and kill them all.

What if it happens the other way around?

We know for a fact that the Asuran nanomachines can be destroyed by simple white blood cells. They almost killed Weir only because her blood cells didn't know to attack the nanomachines. Once that changed the supposed uberbots got owned by a simple bog standard human immune system.

If these ultra deadly killer nanobots can be killed by Weir's white blood cells what's to stop the Wriath from cooking up some sort of nanobot specific bacteria or something that eats them alive? With the level of biotechnology the Wraith have it's well into the realm of foolishness to think they couldn't come up with something worse than a white blood cell. Based on Weir's survival I have serious doubts as to whether or not an Asuran nanomachine infection would even be a credible threat to a Wraith body. It's not like humans are the more resilient of the two species.

The Asurans were an unfinished project. The fact they have glaring flaws and weaknesses like this only makes that more and more obvious. They are NOT the MW replicators that destroyed the Asguard empire, they are grossly grossly infearior.

Your claiming that the Wraith immune system will be able to hold up to the nanites based on a human's immune system, despite the fact that the Wraith is more insect than human? The reason the nanites didn't kill Dr Weir is because they were using her for raw material, they could have just as easily attacked the spine and she'd be dead nearly instantly. Sure her immune system can handle it, but that doesn't necessarily mean the Wraith can. And as for immune systems, we have no idea how strong the Wraith immune system is.

Also, I doubt the Ancients would have made them in such a way without testing them on the Wraith to begin with.

Also, the Asuran nanites are superior to the Replicators for the sole basis that they have access to Ancient tech. And apparently the nanites are quite resilient (as evidenced by the fact that the head Asuran dude evolved the lone surviving nanite, IIRC).

Cban
December 27th, 2006, 08:07 AM
But again, that "bad tactics" argument is wearing very thin, because I can't see how extremely dumb you believe the Ancients were that even with their fancy toys they couldn't kick Wraith ass twice in a day.

Wraith are nomads? Send probes all across the galaxy. Send cloaked PJs.
Check planets where you know there are population centres to be culled.
Put beacons here and there.
Etc.

Is that a form of high strategy... the simple idea of getting proper intel?
No, it is not. It's extremely sub basic. It's plain and simple "look to know".
The Lantians even populated the Pegasus galaxy during the life seeding campaign. Don't tell me they didn't have decent survey systems already in place all across the galaxy.

No, the deal is that you have writers who don't want to bother with Wraith anymore, since they already admitted prefering playing with the Assurans, and didn't think a lot about the implications of the demonstrations of sheer power and mercyless wraith crushing we've seen during three seasons.

the only reason the ancients lost was because they saw no way of winning they distroyed ships after ship and more still came they could not see a way of victory