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Thek
March 10th, 2005, 11:04 AM
Teyla: Previously on the 'Letters From Pegasus' Thread:

Thek: I actually find that looking at the situation in Black/White a weakness. I agree with Kavanaugh in the fact that Weir should have allowed the Geneva Convention to apply to the Wraith.

Cows eat grass, we eat cows, Wraith eat us.

The only difference bettween us and the Wraith in this sense, is that we believe that cows are not intelligent life where Wraith know very well that we are.

And we know that Wraith are intellifent life. (Thus going back to why I believe Weir should have followed the Geneva Convention.)

Wraith, as a species, aren't evil, they are just living creatures who have to eat. Humans just happen to be on the food menu.

The ones we've met have been sadistic, but its like judging that the human race is made up of entirely evil, sadistic creatures because of the percentage of humans who kill, rape, and torture others. (<----This is something I wish the writers would bring up with the Wraith)




GatetheWay: But the Wraith are evil because they know that humans are intelligent. Do you think if humans found out that cows were self aware and intelligent that they would kill and eat them all the same? I don't think so.

Yes, but we don't know if Wraith can eat anything else but humans.

If we knew cows were intelligent and self-aware, but they were the only anything(one?) we could possibly eat to stay alive, humans would still eat them anyway.




Thek: Yes, but we don't know if Wraith can eat anything else but humans.

If we knew cows were intelligent and self-aware, but they were the only anything(one?) we could possibly eat to stay alive, humans would still eat them anyway.




ShadowMaat: (Replying to GatetheWay) I think we'd find a way to rationalize it. "OMG, those poor cows. Such a horrible quality of life! We're really doing them a favor by slaughtering them and eating their flesh and turning their skins into boots." :rolleyes:

Teyla: Now for the rest of the discussion:

Gaterholic
March 10th, 2005, 11:54 AM
Evil by our society standard. They Kill with no remorse. But our standard is based on our way of life. Your standards are just what you were taught and accepted. And these things are constantly changing.
They are an alien race with their own society.
IMO to be evil, you have to be breaking your OWN societies rules and regualtions. If you are doing what your race does, and is ok for them to do, you are just being you.

ShadowMaat
March 10th, 2005, 12:40 PM
Agreed. By current human societal standards, the Wraith would probably be considered evil, but I'm not entirely convinced that such is the case. They eat to live. Do we have any cases of them killing merely for sport? I know there's stuff coming up next season, but I was under the impression that even that would still have an end result of someone being eaten.

They don't casually wipe out whole villages or murder people and leave them, do they? Unless they perceive a threat, and even then I think the "threat" still gets turned into food.

And as we saw in Hot Zone, it isn't as if they can just go suck a cow, they NEED humans. If they ONLY fed off each other, well, A) the species wouldn't last very long and B ) we'd still call them sick and evil because they're cannibals. :rolleyes:

I don't think the Wraith are any more "evil" than any other species, and probably less so than some. After all, they don't take a human host, do they?

Darkdreams
March 10th, 2005, 01:45 PM
I diagree, as uma said the only thing we have control over is if we are evil or good, look at the way the wraith act, do they look freindly? they are pure preditorial evil. they enjoy causing pain. if they only killed humans for food, then why do they play with them and torture them look at their expressions they enjoy what they do to their prey,
The wraith are evil plain and simple its the way the writers have made them.....The only reason they dont kill people and leave them is it would be a waste of food to say that they are not evil because they do not do that is not accurate..
Who cares if they dont take a host they treat ther prey worse than the gou'ald

ShadowMaat
March 10th, 2005, 01:51 PM
I suppose... I just think of big game hunters who can spend weeks tracking and hunting down prey, sometimes wounding the animal in the process but continuing the chase. And I know I've seen people grinning when they eat something particularly tasty. :P

Might be different if the Wraith were hunting me or my family, but I'm not convinced they're necesarily evil. You can be bad or mean without being evil...

Egeria
March 10th, 2005, 01:57 PM
Evil by our society standard. They Kill with no remorse. But our standard is based on our way of life. Your standards are just what you were taught and accepted. And these things are constantly changing.
They are an alien race with their own society.
IMO to be evil, you have to be breaking your OWN societies rules and regualtions. If you are doing what your race does, and is ok for them to do, you are just being you.

I agree. I'm not convinced that there is a strong enough arguement for them to be considered evil. If we are to see them as the predator and humans as the prey, then they are doing what comes naturally to them...feeding, something which they need to do to survive. The fact that they can take enjoyment out of this is irrespective, consider cats for example, they seem to enjoy the hunt...does that make them evil?

Thek
March 10th, 2005, 02:03 PM
And humans hunt food for sport. Heck, many humans just hunt for sport and don't actually eat what they kill. They just watch it die.

Or what about fishing?

Fishers basically suffocate the poor fish to death and that really isn't a fun way to go. Oh, and the hook in the side of the mouth is probably painful.

Not to mention most use living worms as bait.

Yet, we don't define fishing as an evil thing.

Oh, and cutting off heads aren't exactly the painless way to go. Animals can live up to...I believe 13 seconds...after there head is detached.

Egeria
March 10th, 2005, 02:06 PM
And humans hunt food for sport. Heck, many humans just hunt for sport and don't actually eat what they kill. They just watch it die.

Or what about fishing?

Fishers basically suffocate the poor fish to death and that really isn't a fun way to go. Oh, and the hook in the side of the mouth is probably painful.

Not to mention most use living worms as bait.

Yet, we don't define fishing as an evil thing.

Oh, and cutting off heads aren't exactly the painless way to go. Animals can live up to...I believe 13 seconds...after there head is detached.


I was just thinking about the fishing thing. To a lot of people hunting is fun, does that make them evil? At the the moment here in the UK hunting is a very emotive topic at the moment what with the recent hunting ban.

Darkdreams
March 10th, 2005, 02:36 PM
well when the wraith feed they enjoy it way to much there is a difference when you grin while you are eating a really good burger but the wraith dont just grin they cant think of the word but thier happiness is much more sinister, also when thier prey beg to be let go or for mercy you dont hear a cow go please dont kill me I want ot live, you dont see a cow cry whena a cow or other animal is set for slaughter or to be killed it does not know what awaits it.
The wraiths prey do, you cant tell me they are not evil and hear those crys for mercy or thescreams of terror and they still smile with glee as they feed,

I had a savanna monitor lizard and gave if live mice one day it got a mouse from behind and the mouse screams sucha a pitiful scream I almost started crying...I still feed him mice while I had him but I wore headpghones so if they did scream I couldnt hear them.
I hated feeding him from that point to where I started feeding him defrosted rats.
Now if the wraith can listen to the screams and mercy plea's and still feed with such glee and sadistic abandon then they are evil plain and simple...

Darkdreams
March 10th, 2005, 02:37 PM
Besides I want them to be evil cause they are awesome...I rooted for Sauron to win after all evil is more fun...

Thek
March 10th, 2005, 02:45 PM
lol

Evil is fun.

But, honestly, I think the writers need to explore the path of the Wraith not-evilness.

It is an interesting concept. The situation shouldn't be black n' white 'cause nothing ever is.

Besides that: well, if the cow could speak English, I'm pretty sure it might beg for its life before the butcher butchered it. Heck, it probably begs for its life now. "MOOO! MOOO! MOOOOOOOOOOOOOO!" If it realizes what is going on.

Besides, fish flop around franatically when they are out of water...and that's probably their version of begging for their lives.

Okay, so it is entirely possible that the sole reason the characters on Atlantis think the Wraith are evil is because they do what humans pretty much do, except to humans?

...

Egeria
March 10th, 2005, 02:47 PM
well when the wraith feed they enjoy it way to much there is a difference when you grin while you are eating a really good burger but the wraith dont just grin they cant think of the word but thier happiness is much more sinister, also when thier prey beg to be let go or for mercy you dont hear a cow go please dont kill me I want ot live, you dont see a cow cry whena a cow or other animal is set for slaughter or to be killed it does not know what awaits it.
The wraiths prey do, you cant tell me they are not evil and hear those crys for mercy or thescreams of terror and they still smile with glee as they feed,

I had a savanna monitor lizard and gave if live mice one day it got a mouse from behind and the mouse screams sucha a pitiful scream I almost started crying...I still feed him mice while I had him but I wore headpghones so if they did scream I couldnt hear them.
I hated feeding him from that point to where I started feeding him defrosted rats.
Now if the wraith can listen to the screams and mercy plea's and still feed with such glee and sadistic abandon then they are evil plain and simple...

What if every time we ate animal produce we heard screams, would it stop us eating them? Maybe...I don't know. The fact is that those of us that do eat meat know full well that the animal in question didn't want to die. The point is does the knowledge of that, even though we're not witness to it, make us evil?? Killing for fun is totally different to killing for food, at the end of the day the wraith kill humans for food. OK they get pleasure out of the killing in a sport-like way, I'm still not convinced that makes them evil.

Darkdreams
March 10th, 2005, 02:54 PM
If my burger screamed when I took a bite I would record it heh heh, Dont know I might stop then and go vegan, OMG maybe there are Vegan Wraiths so I guess they would CULtivate vegies heh heh, bet they would have a pet Bunnicula. ok yeah its a bad joke.
But yeah I would really love for them to explore a wraith that hates how thier people feed, someone that would come over tot he good side like the tokra. that would be pretty cool. I am sure there would be rogue aspects in the wraith society.
Maybe the Atlatis team could design a drug using the Atlatis computers that would enable them to feed without killing thier prey or no absorb other types of energy instead of living energy, but I dont think that will happen.
The friendly wraith aspect maybe but that woule be problematic after all it would have to feed.

Egeria
March 10th, 2005, 03:01 PM
Liking the idea of rogue-wraiths :)...interesting.

Thek
March 10th, 2005, 03:11 PM
If my burger screamed when I took a bite I would record it heh heh, Dont know I might stop then and go vegan, OMG maybe there are Vegan Wraiths so I guess they would CULtivate vegies heh heh, bet they would have a pet Bunnicula. ok yeah its a bad joke.
But yeah I would really love for them to explore a wraith that hates how thier people feed, someone that would come over tot he good side like the tokra. that would be pretty cool. I am sure there would be rogue aspects in the wraith society.
Maybe the Atlatis team could design a drug using the Atlatis computers that would enable them to feed without killing thier prey or no absorb other types of energy instead of living energy, but I dont think that will happen.
The friendly wraith aspect maybe but that woule be problematic after all it would have to feed.

If they can't eat anything besides humans that is. If Wraith can suck the life out of...I don't know, rodents or something...they might have an easier time.

However, if they could only eat humans..then that would be a problem

I'm thinking if they ever have a....eeeer....humane Wraith(s) they should be some how different from the Tok'ra.

Maybe could still be our enemies since they still have to feed off of humans, but just...not sadistic.

How can the Wraith not be sadistic, by the way? If they feed off of life-force, its not like they can kill the human before hand.

Maybe they only eat really old people or possibly take only a few years off instead of all. I mean, how many years do they need to suck to be healthy full?

Egeria
March 10th, 2005, 03:15 PM
How can the Wraith not be sadistic, by the way? If they feed off of life-force, its not like they can kill the human before hand.



Maybe they only eat really old people or possibly take only a few years off instead of all. I mean, how many years do they need to suck to be healthy full?

There's the question...if they can feed without killing, then I suppose maybe you could consider them evil.

Darkdreams
March 10th, 2005, 03:18 PM
I dont think they can feed without killing if you remember the episode with the wraith crashed on the planet for 10k years he got interrupted while feeding but (forget his name) was dying anyway I think it has something to do with the enzyme or chemical the wraith secrete to facilitate the feeding process

Thek
March 10th, 2005, 03:19 PM
There's the question...if they can feed without killing, then I suppose maybe you could consider them evil.

Yes, but wouldn't that be considered torture?

Seriously, if the Wraith can only eat humans, and living humans because they eat life-force, then how can anything they do not be sadistic to us?

Or at least not warrant a full out war?

Egeria
March 10th, 2005, 03:21 PM
Yes, but wouldn't that be considered torture?

Seriously, if the Wraith can only eat humans, and living humans because they eat life-force, then how can anything they do not be sadistic to us?

Or at least not warrant a full out war?

You are quite right, but that's assuming that they hold the same values as us. We see it as sadistic they might see it as perfectly natural.

ShadowMaat
March 10th, 2005, 03:27 PM
Something that is flat-out pure evil is harder to identify with and thus harder to truly hate. The true horror of the "bad guys" is when they're closer to us, when they could BE us... or our neighbor, or a friend... You have to understand something in order to fear it. I think TPTB have done an OK job with that so far, but to be perfectly honest I find the Wraith as a species kinda boring and unintentionally comical at times.

And I still say that humans can be just as evil and sadistic and horrible as the wraith, maybe even more so.

Thek
March 10th, 2005, 03:30 PM
You are quite right, but that's assuming that they hold the same values as us. We see it as sadistic they might see it as perfectly natural.

Which is why I added the 'to us' part. Or at least to the Atlantis expedition crew.

We have the nice POV of all of this being absolutely fictional.

The Atlantis crew, unforunately, do not. If the Wraith can only suck the life out of humans, there may be less-sadistic Wraith, but Atlantis won't differiate between them. 'Cause, the less-sadistic, non liking pain Wraith are still going to suck the life out of them in order to survive.

...

So, obviously, Oma was wrong. You can't choose whether you are good or evil, because that falls into the eye of the beholder.

Egeria
March 10th, 2005, 03:49 PM
Like you say the perception of evil really does lie in the eyes of the beholder.

ColonelWilliams
March 10th, 2005, 03:52 PM
And humans hunt food for sport. Heck, many humans just hunt for sport and don't actually eat what they kill. They just watch it die.

Or what about fishing?

Fishers basically suffocate the poor fish to death and that really isn't a fun way to go. Oh, and the hook in the side of the mouth is probably painful.

Not to mention most use living worms as bait.

Yet, we don't define fishing as an evil thing.

Oh, and cutting off heads aren't exactly the painless way to go. Animals can live up to...I believe 13 seconds...after there head is detached.

First of all i think yall are missing a major point; Humans fish and kill NON-sentient lifeforms and eat their meat. The wraith kill and eat sentient life forms. As far as killing animals and not eating them, that is generally looked down upon by hunters and fishermen. I'm sure that with their level of technology the wraith could synthesize or at least find in nature a viable life/food alternative to humans, but they don't... I think that the wraith are EVIL

ShadowMaat
March 10th, 2005, 03:55 PM
And as has been pointed out, the Wraith kill and eat humans because THEY HAVE NO CHOICE. They can't eat other life-forms. The Atlantis crew tried that in Hot Zone and Steve couldn't eat it and just starved instead.

thespyofcharles
March 10th, 2005, 03:56 PM
why don't they just eat cows or something then. or the t-rex thing sheppard said they encountered on that one planet. surely they could easily obtain better sources of life energy from bigger creatures... it seems inefficient to eat people.

Thek
March 10th, 2005, 03:59 PM
First of all i think yall are missing a major point; Humans fish and kill NON-sentient lifeforms and eat their meat. The wraith kill and eat sentient life forms. As far as killing animals and not eating them, that is generally looked down upon by hunters and fishermen. I'm sure that with their level of technology the wraith could synthesize or at least find in nature a viable life/food alternative to humans, but they don't... I think that the wraith are EVIL

How do we know they are non-sentient? Seriously, just because we can't communicate with them, doesn't mean they aren't.

And we can't assume it is even possible for there to be an alternative for the Wraith, since they eat life-force, not minerals and vitamins like we do.

How do you reproduce a human life force?

I guess we could always ask the Asgard to start up cloning colony.


"Please don't eat us! Eat our clones instead!"

Gaterholic
March 10th, 2005, 04:02 PM
Another thing is, we still havent seen much. Its only season 1. I admit they are very one dimentional characters as of now, but so were the goa'uld at this point. We will have to see.

also, evil will always win, because good... is dumb.

:)

Thek
March 10th, 2005, 04:04 PM
also, evil will always win, because good... is dumb.

:)

Dark Helmet copy-cat.

Egeria
March 10th, 2005, 04:10 PM
First of all i think yall are missing a major point; Humans fish and kill NON-sentient lifeforms and eat their meat. The wraith kill and eat sentient life forms. As far as killing animals and not eating them, that is generally looked down upon by hunters and fishermen. I'm sure that with their level of technology the wraith could synthesize or at least find in nature a viable life/food alternative to humans, but they don't... I think that the wraith are EVIL

If we can't say for certain whether fish are sentient or not, how can you say that the wraith are EVIL?

ShadowMaat
March 10th, 2005, 04:14 PM
The Wraith might have a different interpretation of sentience. The Goa'uld certainly do. Wasn't that discussed in... er... that ep with Skaara/Klorel and the Triad? I could be remembering it wrong, it's been a few years, but I thought Klorel said that as far as the Goa'uld are concerned, humans aren't sentient/intelligent. Or they don't count, or something...

Who's to say the Wraith aren't the same way?

A Whiter Shade
March 10th, 2005, 04:16 PM
OK OK Let me break it down for everybody. It all becomes clear if you understand these two points:

Point #1- Wraith love to feed.
Point #2- Wraith don't need to feed.

We know from the prisoner and the one stranded on the planet that Wraith cannot die from starving...in fact they can live thousands of years whether they eat or not, maybe even for ever.

Once you understand this the only conclusion you can reach is that Wraith are ADDICTS! When a crack head beats someone to death for their wallet so he can buy more crack is that evil?

Yep.

cobraR478
March 10th, 2005, 04:17 PM
If we can't say for certain whether fish are sentient or not, how can you say that the wraith are EVIL?
Because this is a spinoff of a TV show where the line between good and evil has been traditionally very clear, aside from a couple exceptions. :p

EDIT:
The Wraith are evil, to our point of view. They want to eat us. That is all that is needed to make the case. Humans and other predators may be considered evil by the 'prey' species of this planet.(assuming they can think at that level :p )

Gaterholic
March 10th, 2005, 04:23 PM
Dark Helmet copy-cat.
Of course!

LONE STAR! i am your fathers sisters....

ShadowMaat
March 10th, 2005, 04:24 PM
Defiant One We know from the prisoner and the one stranded on the planet that Wraith cannot die from starving...in fact they can live thousands of years whether they eat or not, maybe even for ever.
That is YOUR assumption.

Bob was on a supply ship. That means his ship was full of food. He also had an unknown number of crewmates who can be- and were- used as food. He might have been able to go for long times between feedings, but he DID still feed.

This ep also shows that the Wraith can't really partially feed off a human. That one scientist guy was left alive, but would eventually have succumbed to his injuries.

Thek
March 10th, 2005, 04:26 PM
OK OK Let me break it down for everybody. It all becomes clear if you understand these two points:

Point #1- Wraith love to feed.
Point #2- Wraith don't need to feed.




Your point 2 is wrong.

Just because they don't die from starvation in the time it takes us to die from starvation doesn't mean they don't.

They don't eat as often as we do, so it makes it a pretty good conclusion, that it takes them longer to starve to death.

Possibly longer than humans have to spare, especially if they are in hibernation.

ColonelWilliams
March 10th, 2005, 04:26 PM
they know that we are sentient and we don't know if the animals that we eat are. It is hard to explain this without getting outside of the show but i think that this is a main point confirming the wraith's evilness. And the it doesn't matter if their bodies need life energy, a race who beat the ancients could probably find out what thier bodies need and produce it. also, if the wraith can only feed on humans, wouldn't that suggest that normal animals are lacking something? if animals were sentient, then why can't the wraith just suck a cow? our DNA is not that different than other life forms so wouldn't this suggest that the wraith feed off something deeper that only humans or other sentient life forms posses?

ShadowMaat
March 10th, 2005, 04:29 PM
As I said (sort of) in the first post: I think that if we were to suddenly discover that cows are sentient... it might cut down on how many people eat them, but I think we'd still find a way to rationalize it so we can get our burgers and steaks.

And until we know how a Wraith defines sentience, you can't say that they know we're intelligent. :P

Thek
March 10th, 2005, 04:34 PM
And besides that:

The Wraith beat the Ancients by pure numbers, not by technology. They are no where as advance as the Ancients were/are.

ColonelWilliams
March 10th, 2005, 04:35 PM
As I said (sort of) in the first post: I think that if we were to suddenly discover that cows are sentient... it might cut down on how many people eat them, but I think we'd still find a way to rationalize it so we can get our burgers and steaks.

And until we know how a Wraith defines sentience, you can't say that they know we're intelligent. :P


yes but the wraith communicate with us and have no reservations about eating stuff they talk to. if cows started fighting humans for the right to survive, I doubt that we would continue to use them as a widespread food source (and the whole world would turn into india as far as cows walking free goes) mabey we would just eet mor chikn (those cows wouldn't have to campaign from billboards anymore)

Thek
March 10th, 2005, 04:36 PM
yes but the wraith communicate with us and have no reservations about eating stuff they talk to. if cows started fighting humans for the right to survive, I doubt that we would continue to use them as a widespread food source (and the whole world would turn into india as far as cows walking free goes) mabey we would just eet mor chikn (those cows wouldn't have to campaign from billboards anymore)

But what if our only food source were cows? We couldn't eat anything but cows, because anything but cows would be like eating air. Heck, eating anything besides cows might even kill us?

Would we give up cows because they were sentient?

cobraR478
March 10th, 2005, 04:39 PM
But what if our only variable food source were cows?
Then we would eat cows and everyone would die of a heart attack at 50. It wouldn't make humans any less 'evil' to a sentient cow.

ColonelWilliams
March 10th, 2005, 04:39 PM
And besides that:

The Wraith beat the Ancients by pure numbers, not by technology. They are no where as advance as the Ancients were/are.


yes but they are obviously technologically advanced one dart took out a jumper with a single volley and the wraith can beam stuff and travel through hyperspace

cobraR478
March 10th, 2005, 04:43 PM
And until we know how a Wraith defines sentience, you can't say that they know we're intelligent. :P
To further this, even though I consider the Wraith pretty evil :p , we can teach monkeys of some sort sign language and have communications with them, but most wouldn't consider them sentient. As the Wraith seem to be a pretty advanced species, its possible that they have levels of communication much greater than our own, and see their communications with us a very primitive, hence not sentient.

Thek
March 10th, 2005, 04:50 PM
Then we would eat cows and everyone would die of a heart attack at 50. It wouldn't make humans any less 'evil' to a sentient cow.

Thus going back to my original point, 'evil' is in the eye of the beholder.

So the Wraith can't be trully evil, cause 'evil' doesn't actually exist in the first place.


yes but they are obviously technologically advanced one dart took out a jumper with a single volley and the wraith can beam stuff and travel through hyperspace

Yes, but can they artificially create a Life-Force that they can eat?

Hyperspace and life-force is really two different fields of science.

cobraR478
March 10th, 2005, 04:53 PM
Thus going back to my original point, 'evil' is in the eye of the beholder.

So the Wraith can't be trully evil, cause 'evil' doesn't actually exist in the first place.
By that logic, nothing exists because everything is a matter of opinion and point of view.

By human logic, the Wraith are evil. They want to eat us.

ColonelWilliams
March 10th, 2005, 04:53 PM
But what if our only food source were cows? We couldn't eat anything but cows, because anything but cows would be like eating air. Heck, eating anything besides cows might even kill us?

Would we give up cows because they were sentient?

Wraith are not limited to eating humans just as the Goa'uld are not limited to human hosts. the wraith can feed on themselves and there is good evidence that they can find/use alternative food sources (wraith eating other wraith, wraith bug thingy surviving without human interaction, and their technological status) if cows were our only food source, we would prolly clone/grow their meat and let them be (i don't belive in human cloning b/c of soul issues but that's beside the point. the wraith can find other means of food) if they need our souls or whatever you want to call it to live, then they are evil abominations like the yuuzhan vong (even though they were restored in the end on zonoma sekot, the wraith will be evil unless they stop bein evil, bad tempered, life suckers) and are naturally evil in the stargate universe.

Metonic
March 10th, 2005, 05:08 PM
Wraith = evil.

Ofcourse they wish to survive, but they could look into making new foods, for example, begetarins dont eat meat they eat vegburgers.

Thek
March 10th, 2005, 05:12 PM
Wraith are not limited to eating humans just as the Goa'uld are not limited to human hosts. the wraith can feed on themselves and there is good evidence that they can find/use alternative food sources (wraith eating other wraith, wraith bug thingy surviving without human interaction, and their technological status) if cows were our only food source, we would prolly clone/grow their meat and let them be (i don't belive in human cloning b/c of soul issues but that's beside the point. the wraith can find other means of food) if they need our souls or whatever you want to call it to live, then they are evil abominations like the yuuzhan vong (even though they were restored in the end on zonoma sekot, the wraith will be evil unless they stop bein evil, bad tempered, life suckers) and are naturally evil in the stargate universe..

How do you know that? Has it ever once said in the entire course of the show that the Wraith can eat anything besides humans, as of yet?

Has it been said that the Wraith are capable of cloning and at the point where the Asgard are?

And why would eating clones be any different than eating humans?

Clones are still biologically human and still will feel pain and suffer from the hands of the Wraith.

That wouldn't make them any less sadistic.

And they don't eat "souls." If they did, it would be POP, you dead.

They eat life-force, which is why the person ages as they do.

Life-force and soul are two different things.

Thek
March 10th, 2005, 05:13 PM
Wraith = evil.

Ofcourse they wish to survive, but they could look into making new foods, for example, begetarins dont eat meat they eat vegburgers.

Or maybe they already have and discovered that humans are their only food source.

They have been around for at least a few million years.

ColonelWilliams
March 10th, 2005, 05:23 PM
How do you know that? Has it ever once said in the entire course of the show that the Wraith can eat anything besides humans, as of yet?

Has it been said that the Wraith are capable of cloning and at the point where the Asgard are?

And why would eating clones be any different than eating humans?

Clones are still biologically human and still will feel pain and suffer from the hands of the Wraith.

That wouldn't make them any less sadistic.

And they don't eat "souls." If they did, it would be POP, you dead.

They eat life-force, which is why the person ages as they do.

Life-force and soul are two different things.


The wraith can eat their own kind, if they can do this, then they can probably eat other stuff too. i wansn't suggesting that they clone humans because they don't live off humans, they live off life force and even if they did clone humans the humans wouldn't be humans, just empty vessels. and if all they need is life force, then why can't they eat other animal's life force? what makes humans special?

A Whiter Shade
March 10th, 2005, 05:28 PM
Just because they don't die from starvation in the time it takes us to die from starvation doesn't mean they don't.

They don't eat as often as we do, so it makes it a pretty good conclusion, that it takes them longer to starve to death.



...on a supply ship...

OK Time for some basic mathematics. I admit I had forgotten it was a supply ship, but it doesn't matter in the long run. I think it's a safe bet that all the human "cargo" on-board was dead within the first 100 years. That leaves 9,900 years for the wraith to survive feeding only on themselves.

With each "feeding" the wraith number would be reduced by 50%. (1 of every 2 wraiths survives) So, even if we assume 10,000 wraith survived the crash-
10000
5000
2500
1250
625
312
156
78
39
20
10
5
2
1

Thats only 14 feedings over 9900 years which breaks down to one meal every 708 years! I realize they have special abilities but everything we've seen in SGA says the cullings take place much more freqeunetly than that.

With that in mind I have no problem sticking to my original theory that the Wraith do not NEED to eat; they're just a bunch of Life Force Junkies.

ShadowMaat
March 10th, 2005, 05:29 PM
And you can go on thinking that, Shadey. I simply disagree. ;)

A Whiter Shade
March 10th, 2005, 05:30 PM
:)

Thek
March 10th, 2005, 05:33 PM
The wraith can eat their own kind, if they can do this, then they can probably eat other stuff too. i wansn't suggesting that they clone humans because they don't live off humans, they live off life force and even if they did clone humans the humans wouldn't be humans, just empty vessels. and if all they need is life force, then why can't they eat other animal's life force? what makes humans special?



Wraith's are half human....actually half-Ancient.

Metonic
March 10th, 2005, 05:33 PM
Or maybe they already have and discovered that humans are their only food source.

They have been around for at least a few million years.

Error: 202 Lack of Viewing.

Wraith can eat other wraith. Their prevous form survived without humans. Wraith can eat others but Humans are msot effecient for them.

Thek
March 10th, 2005, 05:37 PM
Error: 202 Lack of Viewing.

Wraith can eat other wraith. Their prevous form survived without humans. Wraith can eat others but Humans are msot effecient for them.

And some our previous forms survived off of microscope lifeforms called plankton.

And eating your same species doesn't count. Its called cannablism and is generally bad for a species if that is their only form of food.

cobraR478
March 10th, 2005, 05:38 PM
OK Time for some basic mathematics. I admit I had forgotten it was a supply ship, but it doesn't matter in the long run. I think it's a safe bet that all the human "cargo" on-board was dead within the first 100 years. That leaves 9,900 years for the wraith to survive feeding only on themselves.

With each "feeding" the wraith number would be reduced by 50%. (1 of every 2 wraiths survives) So, even if we assume 10,000 wraith survived the crash-
10000
5000
2500
1250
625
312
156
78
39
20
10
5
2
1

Thats only 14 feedings over 9900 years which breaks down to one meal every 708 years! I realize they have special abilities but everything we've seen in SGA says the cullings take place much more freqeunetly than that.

With that in mind I have no problem sticking to my original theory that the Wraith do not NEED to eat; they're just a bunch of Life Force Junkies.

The humans were in some sort of stasis ;) He ate the other Wraith because he wanted to.

Raicho
March 10th, 2005, 06:22 PM
Thus going back to my original point, 'evil' is in the eye of the beholder.

So the Wraith can't be trully evil, cause 'evil' doesn't actually exist in the first place.



Here's a question:

If they're not evil for feeding on us would they be considered evil for forcefully imprisoning humans and taking them away from their livelihoods?

Thek
March 10th, 2005, 08:17 PM
Here's a question:

If they're not evil for feeding on us would they be considered evil for forcefully imprisoning humans and taking them away from their livelihoods?

*shrugs*

We've forcefully imprisoned and took away livelihoods from many different species since our self-proclaimed ownership over the planet. They just got used to it after a while, and so we called it domestication.

Magnus
March 10th, 2005, 08:21 PM
What is good or evil is in the eye of the beholder, in other words... There is no good or evil, just someones opinion on good or evil. Which is why I don't make a distinction for something being good or evil. My opinion of the Wraith is that they mearly do what is required to survive.

ColonelWilliams
March 10th, 2005, 08:49 PM
What is good or evil is in the eye of the beholder, in other words... There is no good or evil, just someones opinion on good or evil. Which is why I don't make a distinction for something being good or evil. My opinion of the Wraith is that they mearly do what is required to survive.


If there is no good or evil then there is no absoulute truth and then nothing would matter...

Thek
March 10th, 2005, 08:53 PM
If there is no good or evil then there is no absoulute truth and then nothing would matter...

"If nothing we do matters, then all that matters is what we do."

^------My favorite quote of ALL TIME.

*shrugs*

If we trully want to get philosphical:

What if the absolute truth is that there is no good or evil?

SmartFox
March 10th, 2005, 08:55 PM
What is good or evil is in the eye of the beholder, in other words... There is no good or evil, just someones opinion on good or evil. Which is why I don't make a distinction for something being good or evil. My opinion of the Wraith is that they mearly do what is required to survive.
Magnus is right. Its all in ones perspective. The Wraith might see us as evil for invading other galaxies when we should mind our own buisness but think they are good.


*shrugs*

We've forcefully imprisoned and took away livelihoods from many different species since our self-proclaimed ownership over the planet. They just got used to it after a while, and so we called it domestication.

We've done way worse. We have killed entire species and continue to whittle down the numbers of other species. We have done horrible things to our own kind. We have enslaved and slaughtered so many humans its unbelievable. I don't think the Wraith go and enslave their own kind and make them slaves. Atleast we don't see that.

Thek
March 10th, 2005, 08:57 PM
We've done way worse. We have killed entire species and continue to whittle down the numbers of other species. We have done horrible things to our own kind. We have enslaved and slaughtered so many humans its unbelievable. I don't think the Wraith go and enslave their own kind and make them slaves. Atleast we don't see that.

Yes. I know.

We are not the most civilized creatures ever to evolve. Far from it.

ColonelWilliams
March 10th, 2005, 08:59 PM
And to thek - i didn't know that the wraith were half ancient where did you hear that? either way, if they are half ancient then why couldn't their bodies use normal food? if they are an experiment gone wrong then they would still retain theirancientness if they didn't then they are different, no matter where they came from. I think the bottom line is that the show has yet to determine whether the wraith have alternate food sources and so there is no way to be 100% sure. but as far as my opinion goes, it seems to me that the wraith are not only written in the story as evil, but portray evil well in the fact that they feed on humans and don't care about the consequences. they may view us as inferior but they can't truely believe that if they are half ancient because they would have some humanity in them.

Thek
March 10th, 2005, 09:04 PM
It is discovered in 'the Gift', so I learned it from 'the Gift' thread.

They are also half that freaky bug thing that attached itself to Sheppard's neck.

So it is entirely possible that whatever Ancientness, as you call it, that they kept is being overpowered by the eeeer....Buginess.

Wandering Tamer
March 10th, 2005, 09:22 PM
personally, I agree with the female wraith from Risings. They aren't evil. They're just feeding.

ColonelWilliams
March 10th, 2005, 09:31 PM
"If nothing we do matters, then all that matters is what we do."

^------My favorite quote of ALL TIME.

*shrugs*

If we trully want to get philosphical:

What if the absolute truth is that there is no good or evil?

then there would be no absolute truth b/c if good/evil were based on opinion, then anyone could do whatever they wanted to do. so what would be wrong for you could be right for them. so if you said that they were wrong, then they could say that it is right for them. and then anyone could believe ANYTHING as absolutely true in their opinion, but other people would contradict that resulting in NO absolute truth. so logically, if you said that the absolute truth is that there is no good or evil, someone could disagree and whatever their opinion was would be absolutely true to them and you would be wrong in their opinion so that would not be absolutely true and absolute truth WOULD NOT EXIST. Absolute truth does exist and there is right and wrong, good and evil. Absolute truth comes from God alone. If not, if the universe simply came into being and there was no source for absolute truth, then there would be no purpose to ANYTHING and we could go curl up in a corner and die and it would make no difference and the wraith would be All good and all bad(even though they prolly don't exist) and nothing else matters… (metallica rox)

Boy i love philosophical debates...

Nordban
March 10th, 2005, 10:21 PM
I don't believe good and evil apply to a realm where one is dealing with a creature a step above on the food chain. This doesn't mean have to accept the current position, on the contrary it is a responsiblity to our species to remedy said situation. Over and over again we have either exterminated or learned to control that which preys on us. This being said we never had to justify our actions by calling the predator evil (not that we haven't anyway just to boost self-importance), it was just us or them.

I know the arguement against my statements is going to be "but they weren't sentient." Many have argued that they might actually be, but I believe the point really is "so what?" Let's be honest, the reason we humans value sentience so much is because we are sentient. (That or a story about a couple eating some apples.) Perhaps the Wraith don't put nearly the value on sentience as we do, and I'll be damned if I can give a logical or even ethical reason why they should.

I'd also like to touch back on the Geneva Convention arguement. For this I would like to point to what is probably our most serious predator : viruses (I'm using the term "predator" a bit loosely). We experiment all the time on them and I don't think anyone has ever complained about it (well not out of consideration for the virus). For this reason I don't see why anything we do to a Wraith, or the Wraith as a whole can be wrong if it can potentially save lives.

MylesSGC
March 11th, 2005, 12:55 AM
I guess you can't really call the wraith evil in a sense, I mean unlike the Goul'd they're not after total domination... But I'm sure they would have it if they could? I mean if they found out a way that would let them feed on other things they'd just kill all the humans?


Also, can the wraith eat cows? :p What about dead cows? i.e beef?

ShadowMaat
March 11th, 2005, 03:22 AM
Ya know, I also have a really hard time imaginging that any species runs around going, "Muahaha!! We're so EVIL! Look at us, being all evil! RAAH!" :rolleyes: Other than your silly supervillains, I just don't think it happens very much.

cobraR478
March 11th, 2005, 05:37 AM
I guess you can't really call the wraith evil in a sense, I mean unlike the Goul'd they're not after total domination... But I'm sure they would have it if they could? I mean if they found out a way that would let them feed on other things they'd just kill all the humans?


Also, can the wraith eat cows? :p What about dead cows? i.e beef?
The Goa'uld aren't evil, perhaps they TRUELY believe they are gods in a sense(perhaps mortal ones) and that it is their duty to rule over those that are weaker.

Now that we have decided that a being is not evil as long as he/she/it truely believes that what he/she/it is right I'm going to go drive drunk with a shotgun and shoot some children.

Now then, the Wraith seem to enjoy causing humans pain.

To us, doesn't the fact that they enjoy causing pain rather than feeling horrible about it make them even more evil. Wouldn't the fact that they view it as ok make them more evil than if they knew it was wrong and sadistic.

In fact, a Wraith that did not enjoy causing humans pain and ONLY did it out of necessity would probably be viewed with a bit of sympathy.

Enemyone
March 11th, 2005, 06:53 AM
part of me things that: Ok does it really matter if they are evil or not. when it comes down to it earth Humans are not going to sit around and wait to be ate. Yes we humans can do some horrific things to one another, However, we are also a race known for their unending need to survive. Fact is Wraith plan on eating everyone on earth and in all of our little corner of the universe. and im sorry but caring if they are evil or if the Geneva convention should be used with them as well is a plight for only a fool. Would you try to want to try and sign a treaty with the Wraith you walking happy meal? No! the only good wraith is a dead wraith, and the only thing better than that is wraith ship blowing the heck up. Dog with its back against a wall thinking about philosphical nonsense is a waste of time.

the other part thinks if you have only seen insane Wraith and we know that the wraith use a mental connection much like a hive mind. What in the heck makes you think they are not all like that?

Darkdreams
March 11th, 2005, 07:06 AM
As I said (sort of) in the first post: I think that if we were to suddenly discover that cows are sentient... it might cut down on how many people eat them, but I think we'd still find a way to rationalize it so we can get our burgers and steaks.

And until we know how a Wraith defines sentience, you can't say that they know we're intelligent. :P


Thats totally untrue the wraith Know that we are sentient, they have talked to us we have had a conversations with them, You cant do that with a fish or a cow thus we dont know if they are sentient.. Also the wriath can ready our minds to a extent so they definatly know we are sentient...

Darkdreams
March 11th, 2005, 07:08 AM
But what if our only food source were cows? We couldn't eat anything but cows, because anything but cows would be like eating air. Heck, eating anything besides cows might even kill us?

Would we give up cows because they were sentient?


This statement is redundant as we know there are other food sources, as such I am pretty sure that the wraith can eat from other sources. The human body is made up of energy, the wraith are an advanced tech wise so I am sure that they would be able to find a way to make a machine that would provide them with the energy they need to survive.

Darkdreams
March 11th, 2005, 07:15 AM
The wraith can eat their own kind, if they can do this, then they can probably eat other stuff too. i wansn't suggesting that they clone humans because they don't live off humans, they live off life force and even if they did clone humans the humans wouldn't be humans, just empty vessels. and if all they need is life force, then why can't they eat other animal's life force? what makes humans special?


If you clone a human that does not mean they will be empty vessels, it would just mean that they dont have a identity as they do not have the life xp of a normal person they would still be self aware and feel pain, the only way this could be avoided is if you genetically altered the clone to be a blank slate, this is likely what the asgard do

Darkdreams
March 11th, 2005, 07:18 AM
OK Time for some basic mathematics. I admit I had forgotten it was a supply ship, but it doesn't matter in the long run. I think it's a safe bet that all the human "cargo" on-board was dead within the first 100 years. That leaves 9,900 years for the wraith to survive feeding only on themselves.

With each "feeding" the wraith number would be reduced by 50%. (1 of every 2 wraiths survives) So, even if we assume 10,000 wraith survived the crash-
10000
5000
2500
1250
625
312
156
78
39
20
10
5
2
1

Thats only 14 feedings over 9900 years which breaks down to one meal every 708 years! I realize they have special abilities but everything we've seen in SGA says the cullings take place much more freqeunetly than that.

With that in mind I have no problem sticking to my original theory that the Wraith do not NEED to eat; they're just a bunch of Life Force Junkies.


That is on the assumption that the humans would only stay alive for 100 years what if they are in suspended animation of some sort, there is not enough data to accuratly calculate exactly how many wraith were there how long the humans would survive ect... but I do agree that the wraith prob do not need to feed as often as we have to eat..

Darkdreams
March 11th, 2005, 07:25 AM
Ya know, I also have a really hard time imaginging that any species runs around going, "Muahaha!! We're so EVIL! Look at us, being all evil! RAAH!" :rolleyes: Other than your silly supervillains, I just don't think it happens very much.

What are you talking about I do that all the time, I just dont understand why everyone runs away from me heh heh.

Darkdreams
March 11th, 2005, 07:27 AM
I'd also like to touch back on the Geneva Convention arguement. For this I would like to point to what is probably our most serious predator : viruses (I'm using the term "predator" a bit loosely). We experiment all the time on them and I don't think anyone has ever complained about it (well not out of consideration for the virus). For this reason I don't see why anything we do to a Wraith, or the Wraith as a whole can be wrong if it can potentially save lives.

Soes the Geneva Convention even Apply? I mean they are in a different galaxy, and they are not actually dealing with a human race, or even a race that is alien in the sense that they think we are even terms intelligence wise, tehy are killing machines that only care about sucking us dry, so I say take the gloves off baby...

ShadowMaat
March 11th, 2005, 07:31 AM
Thats totally untrue the wraith Know that we are sentient, they have talked to us we have had a conversations with them, You cant do that with a fish or a cow thus we dont know if they are sentient.. Also the wriath can ready our minds to a extent so they definatly know we are sentient...
From the Gateworld summary for the SG-1 ep Pretense:
http://www.gateworld.net/sg1/s3/315.shtml


Zipacna argues that the Goa'uld use humans when needed because they are lower, less intelligent lifeforms -- just as humans use animals for food and as beasts of burden.

The Goa'uld have conversations with us and yet, according to Zippy, the Goa'uld do not consider us "intelligent." Who's to say that the Wraith don't think the same thing? Only instead of hosts, they see us as food.

Some people talk to their pets. They even think that their pets understand them. A few even believe their pets answer them in some form or another. People talk to animals all the time, even "food" animals. Hell, at one of the local farms they have a calf named Steak. ;) So I say again, until we know how the Wraith define sentience, you can't make grand statements about their morality.

Don't go getting all preachy just because some of us may disagree with you. YOU interpret it one way, I happen to interpret it differently. Neither of us is wrong because we're looking at it from different perspectives and with different "facts" taken for granted. Don't tell me I'm wrong when it's a matter of opinion. Until things are proven one way or another on the show, I am free to believe whatever I like. And even afterwards, I'm free to disagree with the show. ;)

ColonelWilliams
March 11th, 2005, 08:07 AM
If you clone a human that does not mean they will be empty vessels, it would just mean that they dont have a identity as they do not have the life xp of a normal person they would still be self aware and feel pain, the only way this could be avoided is if you genetically altered the clone to be a blank slate, this is likely what the asgard do

clones don't have their own personality...

Darkdreams
March 11th, 2005, 08:12 AM
From the Gateworld summary for the SG-1 ep Pretense:
http://www.gateworld.net/sg1/s3/315.shtml



The Goa'uld have conversations with us and yet, according to Zippy, the Goa'uld do not consider us "intelligent." Who's to say that the Wraith don't think the same thing? Only instead of hosts, they see us as food.

Some people talk to their pets. They even think that their pets understand them. A few even believe their pets answer them in some form or another. People talk to animals all the time, even "food" animals. Hell, at one of the local farms they have a calf named Steak. ;) So I say again, until we know how the Wraith define sentience, you can't make grand statements about their morality.

Don't go getting all preachy just because some of us may disagree with you. YOU interpret it one way, I happen to interpret it differently. Neither of us is wrong because we're looking at it from different perspectives and with different "facts" taken for granted. Don't tell me I'm wrong when it's a matter of opinion. Until things are proven one way or another on the show, I am free to believe whatever I like. And even afterwards, I'm free to disagree with the show. ;)

Umm, I wasnt being all preachy and I wasnt attacking you so please do not think that way. I was replying to your statement my reply was not aimed at you personally. All I am saying is that there is a difference between talking to your dog, animal ect and talking to a being and having them answer you back in full sentances and being able to have a conversation with them. the difference betweent he Gou'al and the wraith is big, as the wraith can read minds. how detailed that mind reading is, is not clear. What is clear is that they defiantly know we are sentient, after all they know we make machines, buildings, weapons, we fight back defend ourselvs, and act in a intellegent manner. Now they may not believe that we are intelligent compared to themselves as they would believe that they are superior to us but they would know that we are sentient beings

Darkdreams
March 11th, 2005, 08:30 AM
clones don't have their own personality...
Yes that is true but that doesnt mean they dont have any self awareness, personality is based on ones life xp as they have no life xp they would have no personality but the would be self aware they just would not know who they are, how they came about ect.

Did the asgard ever addess that? I mean they clone but unless they were able to clone a body that was a blank slate I would think that could create problems...

ShadowMaat
March 11th, 2005, 08:41 AM
All I am saying is that there is a difference between talking to your dog, animal ect and talking to a being and having them answer you back in full sentances and being able to have a conversation with them.
Then say that. Don't say, "You're wrong and here's why I'm right..." Just say that you don't agree with my assessment and explain why.

But whatever. I admit I'm in a particularly pissy mood these days and it's souring a lot of my communication...

This is still one of the more interesting threads on the board at the moment.

Darkdreams
March 11th, 2005, 08:50 AM
Then say that. Don't say, "You're wrong and here's why I'm right..." Just say that you don't agree with my assessment and explain why.

But whatever. I admit I'm in a particularly pissy mood these days and it's souring a lot of my communication...

This is still one of the more interesting threads on the board at the moment.


sorry I typed without thinking I can see where you could take my statement as being pointed as you, I agree this is an interesting thread, cant wait to see what they are going to do with the wraith, I am really hoping that they put a spin with a "good" wraith or should a say a pesudo vegetarian wraith that hates that it has to feed to live or something on those lines, that would be a good way for the Atlantis team to learn more about the wraith...

Magnus
March 11th, 2005, 09:30 AM
then there would be no absolute truth b/c if good/evil were based on opinion, then anyone could do whatever they wanted to do. so what would be wrong for you could be right for them. so if you said that they were wrong, then they could say that it is right for them. and then anyone could believe ANYTHING as absolutely true in their opinion, but other people would contradict that resulting in NO absolute truth. so logically, if you said that the absolute truth is that there is no good or evil, someone could disagree and whatever their opinion was would be absolutely true to them and you would be wrong in their opinion so that would not be absolutely true and absolute truth WOULD NOT EXIST. Absolute truth does exist and there is right and wrong, good and evil. Absolute truth comes from God alone. If not, if the universe simply came into being and there was no source for absolute truth, then there would be no purpose to ANYTHING and we could go curl up in a corner and die and it would make no difference and the wraith would be All good and all bad(even though they prolly don't exist) and nothing else matters… (metallica rox)

Boy i love philosophical debates...
There aren't any absolute truths, there is only majority's accepted truth and the truths believed by individuals. There is no absolute good or evil. Collectively the individuals' truths of what is good and what is evil will be accepted at the majority's truth. That truth is not absolute since it's based on individuals' truths, and the truths of the individual are not absolute. They are relative and ever changing. Purpose is intent and that is only absolute to the individual who chooses to take an action or not to take any action. Any outside judgment is irrelevant because it is an assumption and therefore holds conjecture not truth.

God should remain outside of this debate considering some people believe god created man while others believe man created the idea of god.

Metallica did rock˛ & I also love philosophical debates.

MarshAngel
March 11th, 2005, 10:01 AM
I think part of the problem is that we want the Wraith to have a moral conscience and say, "maybe eating these humans isn't such a good idea". But we don't even know that they have a concept of good or evil as we do.

I think evil actions are defined by those who suffer the result. As long as we're the one's getting screwed, they are evil. If sharks and tigers were on the top of the food chain and our ability to fight them off were extremely limited, I think we'd define them as being evil, since their most basic goals conflict with ours.

If cows and chickens have the ability to define evil then we, to them, are evil. The question is does it matter? What they want is irrelevant to us (we don't do research to find out their philosophy) and I think the same can be said of the Wraith. As long as we can control them, corale them, put them where we want them then we do as we wish to them, they're not important. The Wraith can do exactly that with us and so to them we're irrelevant.

Thus far no, humans that we know of have tried with any success, to thwart the Wraith. If they did I think that may change thier outlook, albeit slowly. The difference between humans and the Ancients is that they could fight on the Wraith's level and as a result were considered enemies not cattle.

I wouldn't be surprised if the Wraith thought the Ancients were evil. After all, they were standing in the way of the Wraith's need for food and would kill them to prevent them from eating.

flankergeek
March 11th, 2005, 10:11 AM
Who cares? They harvest humans for food. Waste the ******s! Oh an here the Geneva Convention so does not apply, its hardly like the Convention was intended to apply to an alien race from another galexy which delight in sucking the lifeforce out of humans.

Darkdreams
March 11th, 2005, 10:13 AM
I wouldn't be surprised if the Wraith thought the Ancients were evil. After all, they were standing in the way of the Wraith's need for food and would kill them to prevent them from eating.

Spoiler:I saw on a post somewhere that it is going to be suggested that the ancients created the wraith so in a sense you could say that the wraith would think that the ancients would be evil. is that right?

Thek
March 11th, 2005, 12:41 PM
clones don't have their own personality...

Acutally, that is a common misconception.

Asgard clones don't have their own personality because they are like *POP* they're whatever age of the original is.

However, as far as us cloning humans, we can't have them go *POP* like the Asgard do.

They start from the beginning...the very beginning.

The conception part is just different. Insted man/woman action, its gene splicing and stirring in a giant pot. lol. *coughs*

However, the clone still has to become an embryo, then a fetus, and then be born.

What's the really interesting part is that only 1/3 of our personality is actually genetics, the rest of it is eviromental.

So, if there is no *POP* in the how many or so years that it takes the clone to reach the age the original was at, its personality will be different.

A good example of it is indentical twins. They are natural clones, however by the time they are in their late teens, their personalities are different.

Nor is one brain-dead.

And the question of soul vs. not-souled is a religious debate. And those are ussually pointless since everyone involved is ussually bullheaded about it.

eeer...

Sorry. Got off topic.

A Whiter Shade
March 11th, 2005, 10:08 PM
Hi all,

You might recall my post which mathematically "proved" that the wraith do not have to eat to survive, they simply are addicted to the Life Force like crack addicts. After watching tonight's episode it appears I am wrong.

Apparently they do have to eat and they're worried that because they are all awake they'll run out of munchies unless they can get to Earth.

This makes me think back to the episode where the Wraith are awakened. I wonder if the reason they all awoke is less because Shep killed the chick and more because she learned of Earth with its billions of Wraith happy meals.

This also makes me think of the Wraith threat in a long term sense. Like all animals that wake from hibernating- I seriously doubt the Wraith can go back to sleep without lots of "food" stored in their bodies. So in a way, it almost seems feasible that if Atlantis lets the Wraith exhuast Pegasus' supply of humans the Wraith will starve to death since they cannot re-enter hibernation. Hurray! LOL

White Knight
March 11th, 2005, 10:28 PM
From what I understand, they hibernate for a few hundred years except for the Keepers, some guards and enough to enforce their rule. By then, the human population of the Pegasus galaxy has grown enough that they can cull enough to feed for the next few hundred years while still leaving enough for the populations to grow again.

The only exception to this is if a Keeper is killed. The Wraith hive mind will then assume that the human populations have become a threat, and awaken the Wraith populations so that they can begin the cullings. If this happens, there won't be enough humans to properly sustain the population for their hibernation period.

If they'd only been hibernating for half the normal time when Sheppard killed the Keeper, it would explain why they are so desperate to find Earth, and the billions of people they could feed upon.

I think...

SmartFox
March 11th, 2005, 10:46 PM
From what I understand, they hibernate for a few hundred years except for the Keepers, some guards and enough to enforce their rule. By then, the human population of the Pegasus galaxy has grown enough that they can cull enough to feed for the next few hundred years while still leaving enough for the populations to grow again.

The only exception to this is if a Keeper is killed. The Wraith hive mind will then assume that the human populations have become a threat, and awaken the Wraith populations so that they can begin the cullings. If this happens, there won't be enough humans to properly sustain the population for their hibernation period.

If they'd only been hibernating for half the normal time when Sheppard killed the Keeper, it would explain why they are so desperate to find Earth, and the billions of people they could feed upon.

I think...
You hit right on the money White.

Thor's Pal
March 12th, 2005, 01:51 AM
actually, I think the Wraith would turn on each other for food if they ran out of humans.

Unas
March 12th, 2005, 02:34 AM
The cullings take place every 200 years, they woke up 50 years early. The guards make raids on humans but not on the culling scale.

@Li3n
March 12th, 2005, 07:16 AM
actually, I think the Wraith would turn on each other for food if they ran out of humans.


Yeah they could but i think 6 milion happy meals sounds more apealling... :D and that's just on Earth. The whole MW is full of humans in SG. They might not even need 2 hibernate 4 a couple of generations.

hermajesty
March 12th, 2005, 08:25 AM
The wraiths prey do [beg for mercy], you cant tell me they are not evil and hear those crys for mercy or thescreams of terror and they still smile with glee as they feed
That's a ridiculous argument. Whether the victim screams or begs for mercy has nothing to do with it. Does that mean its worse to murder someone screaming and begging than it is to murder someone who silently awaits their fate? Anyway, animals do scream and cry in their own way, its just that we can't understand their language. Surely if it's evil to kill then it's still evil whether the victim is crying for mercy or not.

American3.141592654
March 12th, 2005, 08:48 AM
Evil by our society standard. They Kill with no remorse. But our standard is based on our way of life. Your standards are just what you were taught and accepted. And these things are constantly changing.
They are an alien race with their own society.
IMO to be evil, you have to be breaking your OWN societies rules and regualtions. If you are doing what your race does, and is ok for them to do, you are just being you.


I would like to add that our society's standards seem to be plastic and flexible though and while it may be seen as "immoral" to kill eachother we still have people who farm cattle and slaughter that cattle by using a nail in the forehead. Our ethics in regards to lower life forms are pretty much, "if they're tasty, lets eat 'em..." It is only a small minority of people who wish to give rights and consideration of rights to animals based on essentially their intellect. Consider that wraith have cognitive abilities that are far surpassing ours, for instance they communicate telepathically for one thing. So it'd be easy to consider humans and ancients as less sentient than they themselves are. Perhaps they are even... HOWEVER this brings up an interesting counter point, perhaps if we'd say we're deserving of some respect as living creatures by the wraith who are more impressive cognatively then we shouldn't treat lower life forms as we do just cause cows are stupid. ;)

hermajesty
March 12th, 2005, 08:49 AM
To us, doesn't the fact that they enjoy causing pain rather than feeling horrible about it make them even more evil. Wouldn't the fact that they view it as ok make them more evil than if they knew it was wrong and sadistic.
I would argue that the complete opposite is true. If your whole species says something's ok, and you don't know that its wrong, then you can't be held to blame so much. A child who has been taught that stealing is ok isn't evil, just misguided. Surely it's worse to know that something is wrong and sadistic, yet carry on regardless.

Matthew D
March 12th, 2005, 09:00 AM
I have to say great insight White Knight.. I was wondering about the motives of the Wraith on the awaking till last night and like you said.. happy meals are waiting..
Almost every creature in nature makes some type of noices when caught or hurt. So that and in itself does not make the Wraith evil... now the part about experimentation on the food supply does start to have me leaning toward the evil side though

American3.141592654
March 12th, 2005, 09:12 AM
Agreed. By current human societal standards, the Wraith would probably be considered evil, but I'm not entirely convinced that such is the case. They eat to live. Do we have any cases of them killing merely for sport? I know there's stuff coming up next season, but I was under the impression that even that would still have an end result of someone being eaten.

They don't casually wipe out whole villages or murder people and leave them, do they? Unless they perceive a threat, and even then I think the "threat" still gets turned into food.

And as we saw in Hot Zone, it isn't as if they can just go suck a cow, they NEED humans. If they ONLY fed off each other, well, A) the species wouldn't last very long and B ) we'd still call them sick and evil because they're cannibals. :rolleyes:

I don't think the Wraith are any more "evil" than any other species, and probably less so than some. After all, they don't take a human host, do they?


They have good apples and bad apples.. Some of them are cannibals and some of them do take unfathomable pleasure in the kill itself. Some of them may feel that humans may be sentient (by their standards) and simply don't care however since some people are that way about cows obviously we wouldn't consider the human race as evil just because some people are bad eggs. We ourselves have cannibals and people who like to kill animals for fun and so on but we wouldn't argue that the human race is evil. We know that there are some who aren't the bad eggs... Think of it this way, the wraith tried to do experiments on humans either to make humans and wraith compatible or possibly to fix what was wrong with them in needing to kill something to survive (something other than plants or grubs or whatever else one who isn't going to eat a chicken or a cow would eat to be happy and healthy). Perhaps there are wraith vegitarians or whatever the equivalent is for wraith... Imagine this scenario, they wind up on some planet with scorched earth everywhere and dead trees all over the place and there is a small community of wraith there wearing tie-dye t-shirts and bell-bottoms with scarfs on their heads and puffy hair and the team is out of ammo but they're wondering what they're going to do and one of the hippy wraith sneaks up on them and asks them what they're doing there and how they got past the other wraith in the first place... And once they introduce themselves they tell the team they're vegitarians and feed off of the trees in the forrest lands that cover the planet and refuse to feed off of humans cause they believe that humans may be sentient because they can have conversations from them and know legends of how the wraith came from the ancients before them but something went wrong and their form was born. They believe that while this was not a cosmic mistake or a horrible accident but the creation of an entirely different way of being they also think that giving into their hungers and following their baser instincts would doom them from growing past where they are and they'd just be spinning in circles.

American3.141592654
March 12th, 2005, 09:27 AM
The Wraith might have a different interpretation of sentience. The Goa'uld certainly do. Wasn't that discussed in... er... that ep with Skaara/Klorel and the Triad? I could be remembering it wrong, it's been a few years, but I thought Klorel said that as far as the Goa'uld are concerned, humans aren't sentient/intelligent. Or they don't count, or something...

Who's to say the Wraith aren't the same way?


I can't believe I actually strongly agree with ShadowMaat on well, ANYTHING.. I've agreed to a point up until now on some things but yeah, shadow's got a point here... The wraith seem to be able to do more fun stuff with their mind than humans can, and thus they'd be fully capable of arguing they're more sentient than humans are. The gua'uld are WRONG about being more sentient than humans since they are parasites but the wraith are fully functional beings capable of existing without other living things as much as any living creatures are capable of living... All living things need to eat organic stuff the wraith eat people, maybe we should paint them purple... ;) Of course then we'd have to poke out one of their eyes and give them a single horn but that may be going too far... ;) The wraith have telepathy and that alone would allow them to think they're above the human race and everything else cause they can communicate with their mind.

hermajesty
March 12th, 2005, 10:01 AM
IMO, in real life noone is truly evil. Everything is shades of grey, and evil is just a concept used in stories to make it alright to kill the baddies. But that was just a thought, and i'm open to convincing arguments against it.

ShadowMaat
March 12th, 2005, 10:09 AM
Just for another comparison, cats play with their food. They'll catch a mouse, let it go, catch it again, bat it around a bit... they'll inflict some damage but still keep it alive for a while. You could say they "torture" mice and other small creatures. But are they EVIL for doing it? I know millions of people who'd argue against it. ;) Would you also say that cats are more intelligent than mice and that they have a moral obligation to make a quick, clean kill rather than teasing their food? Or are they on the same level, which isn't necessarily any better?

I've seen footage of wolves playing with their food, too. And dolphins will play with the groups of fish they're eating. Sure, it's fun for the dolphin, but ask the fish if they're having a good time and... well, it wouldn't be able to answer you because it's a fish, but I doubt they're liking it. Assuming you even grant fish with the intelligence to be afraid rather than just running on instinct/outside impulse.

Dolphins, at the very least, are considered to be a fairly intelligent species (extremely so if you read Doug Adams). Sentience in general is a very dodgy subject, anyway. Read up on the Turing Test for more on that. But I doubt that anyone would call dolphins evil. Except maybe fishermen.

My point is, the criteria being used to label the Wraith as "evil" don't necessarily fit all cases. There are exceptions to every rule and there are different ways of interpreting things. In some cases, we even "make allowances" for certain patterns of behavior. If you want to think the Wraith are evil, that's just peachy, but I don't think we know enough about them or their criteria (or even our own criteria) to go making definitive statements saying that yes, it is a FACT that the Wraith are evil. For now, it's still all a matter of opinion. :)

As for the events uncovered in The Gift... My guess is that the Ancients "upgraded" the Wraith in order to act as a weapon against an enemy... but their weapon got out of hand and turned on them. Then the Wraith started experiments of their own. I think it was implied that it was done to make a better food source... or to make them more compatible with the Wraith. I'd like to know why... and why did they blend human and wraith DNA to achieve this? If having Wraith DNA makes them more compatible, doesn't that lean towards the idea that the wraith are cannibals? I mean, you don't see people running around infusing cows with human DNA to make a tastier burger, right? At least, I hope not...

If TPTB handle this right, then I think we've barely scratched the surface of who and what the wraith are... and why they came to be this way.

Thek
March 12th, 2005, 10:14 AM
If TPTB handle this right, then I think we've barely scratched the surface of who and what the wraith are... and why they came to be this way.

The Wraith are shaping up to be a far more interesting "bad guys" than the Gao'uld and the Replicators ever were, that's for sure.

Here's to hoping that TPTB don't mess it up. :cool:

American3.141592654
March 12th, 2005, 02:33 PM
Just for another comparison, cats play with their food. They'll catch a mouse, let it go, catch it again, bat it around a bit... they'll inflict some damage but still keep it alive for a while. You could say they "torture" mice and other small creatures. But are they EVIL for doing it? I know millions of people who'd argue against it. ;) Would you also say that cats are more intelligent than mice and that they have a moral obligation to make a quick, clean kill rather than teasing their food? Or are they on the same level, which isn't necessarily any better?


Well thing is cats are doing so cause it's a means of practicing their predatory skills. Predators in the wild seldom make a quick clean kill, however they'd usually prefer it cause the slow agonizing death usually causes more energy on the part of the predator and they tend to conserve energy when they can. Cats on the other hands are domesticated animals and they tend to adapt to living with humans which has meant they have to keep their skills up through play instead of strait forward use of said skills.



I've seen footage of wolves playing with their food, too. And dolphins will play with the groups of fish they're eating. Sure, it's fun for the dolphin, but ask the fish if they're having a good time and... well, it wouldn't be able to answer you because it's a fish, but I doubt they're liking it. Assuming you even grant fish with the intelligence to be afraid rather than just running on instinct/outside impulse.


Yes, predatory animals play, it's a means of staying in shape, that's an instinct we share in common with other predators (yes humans are lower caste predator/scavengers in animal kingdom terms.. with forward facing eyes and eye teeth that are capable of tearing animal flesh, plus we're omnivorous meaning we not only eat plant material but we also eat meat.



Dolphins, at the very least, are considered to be a fairly intelligent species (extremely so if you read Doug Adams). Sentience in general is a very dodgy subject, anyway. Read up on the Turing Test for more on that. But I doubt that anyone would call dolphins evil. Except maybe fishermen.

Actually, yes the concept of self awareness and sentience is extremely difficult. For YEARS now part of the problem with trying to prove that lower caste primates should be given respect as intelligent beings was whether or not they can be taught sign language and the thing that pooched the deal was when it was revealed that the apes were actually only using the signs that they already have in the wild, HOWEVER it's even more interesting cause what was happening was the apes were teaching their signs to the trainers so the apes not only had communication skills but teaching skills too so it's even more impressive but humans don't accept that as evidence they're intelligent but much to the opposite it was used as evidence that apes weren't capable of communication on the level of humans however they taught the humans their communication so while it had a lot in common with some universals of human communication it was a fully formed language of its own right so that shows MORE but my colleagues have generally accepted it as evidence that they are not intelligent enough for communication. I swear the other side of this debate is so arrogant it's insane...



My point is, the criteria being used to label the Wraith as "evil" don't necessarily fit all cases. There are exceptions to every rule and there are different ways of interpreting things. In some cases, we even "make allowances" for certain patterns of behavior. If you want to think the Wraith are evil, that's just peachy, but I don't think we know enough about them or their criteria (or even our own criteria) to go making definitive statements saying that yes, it is a FACT that the Wraith are evil. For now, it's still all a matter of opinion. :)


I'm completely in your camp on this one that we can't say the wraith as a species are evil unless each individual was evil and they probably aren't ALL evil. Some may be bad apples and some might be good people. They are no more or less evil than the human race on the whole are...



As for the events uncovered in The Gift... My guess is that the Ancients "upgraded" the Wraith in order to act as a weapon against an enemy... but their weapon got out of hand and turned on them. Then the Wraith started experiments of their own. I think it was implied that it was done to make a better food source... or to make them more compatible with the Wraith. I'd like to know why... and why did they blend human and wraith DNA to achieve this? If having Wraith DNA makes them more compatible, doesn't that lean towards the idea that the wraith are cannibals? I mean, you don't see people running around infusing cows with human DNA to make a tastier burger, right? At least, I hope not...

If TPTB handle this right, then I think we've barely scratched the surface of who and what the wraith are... and why they came to be this way.

I think that it was an accident actually and that the wraith partly took up arms against the ancients because the ancients saw their creation as an "accident" which should really tick off them cause lets face it if some roswell grey came along and said, "you were an accident in the lab, we must fix this by killing you all off and starting over" we'd see them then as a threat to our existence so THAT is probably why they went after the Ancients and lets face it after the revelation that the OTHERS who are former ancients allowed Anubis to almost destroy the entire universe and all the life in it. Plus the ancients may have been working on a virus to kill all the humans in order to starve the wraith to death. Lets face it, it's just plain EVIL to kill off the innocent in order to starve a different species that happens to prey upon them. So perhaps there are a greater number or evil ancients out there and if the rumors about the next enemy in Season 9 being evil ascended ancients then lets face it with them being the powers that be in the Peg., Gal., the wraith may have been very justified to go to war with them. The fact remains you can not condemn an entire species as evil simply cause of biology and we don't know the entire history of just WHY they went to war with the arrogant buggers who are called "the Ancients".

ShadowMaat
March 12th, 2005, 02:40 PM
Well, the Wraith are predators, too, aren't they? So they're allowed to play with their food. ;)

akren
March 12th, 2005, 03:59 PM
The Wraith, I think, are not inheriantly evil per sae, although they do seem to take great pleasure in sucking the lifeforce out of a victim. Then again, from the Wraith point of view, it is hard to have respect for anything one considers food.

Keep in mind also, that they have a level of technology on par with that of the Ancients, & might view other, less technologically-evolved species as 'inferior' (just as the arrogant belief of the Tollan about the Goa'uuld & others being 'too primitive' cuased their downfall at the hands of Anubis). This superiority complex coupled with the nature of their species (being a parastical, vampiric kind of people), would go a long way to help us understand why they acy like they do.

Their culture is very alien & as beyound us, just as our culture is probably beyound their comprehension. The Wraith would see us as primitive, strange & a food source to be consumed; just as we see them as technoligcally-advanced, tyranical & saddistic butcher whom literally suck the life out of other 'so-called' sentient beings.

Wandering Tamer
March 12th, 2005, 07:52 PM
The Wraith, I think, are not inheriantly evil per sae, although they do seem to take great pleasure in sucking the lifeforce out of a victim. Then again, from the Wraith point of view, it is hard to have respect for anything one considers food.

Well, I enjoy a nice juicey Fuji apple. In our culture, there's nothing wrong with enjoying one's food. So, from the Wraith perspective, what's wrong with enjoying sucking the life from someone when feeding?

And, in S2, they hunt that new guy for sport, it's the same as humans hunting wild game for sport. Prizes and the most value to a harder prey to catch. It's the same for them. We're sufficently lower then them in evolution or advancment that we might as well be animals

Raicho
March 13th, 2005, 07:13 PM
*shrugs*

We've forcefully imprisoned and took away livelihoods from many different species since our self-proclaimed ownership over the planet. They just got used to it after a while, and so we called it domestication.

Then we're back to the question of whether animals are considered along the same lines as humans.

The biggest difference is that animals live by instinct, basing their decisions on what's been "programmed into them", as opposed to humans who have a choice in the decisions they make.

Here's a question: "If the Wraith are driven by instinct, why do the consider themselves better than humans?"

Also it'd be over-simplifying the situation to say all humans are subject to be "devoured" by the Wraith. What if some of the humans they eat are ones that sympathize with animals and allow them to live in their own habitats. What if they don't even eat meat? Would it be justifiable then for a human life to be forfeit to a Wraith.

Raicho
March 13th, 2005, 10:44 PM
Keep in mind also, that they have a level of technology on par with that of the Ancients, & might view other, less technologically-evolved species as 'inferior' (just as the arrogant belief of the Tollan about the Goa'uuld & others being 'too primitive' cuased their downfall at the hands of Anubis). This superiority complex coupled with the nature of their species (being a parastical, vampiric kind of people), would go a long way to help us understand why they acy like they do.

Their culture is very alien & as beyound us, just as our culture is probably beyound their comprehension. The Wraith would see us as primitive, strange & a food source to be consumed; just as we see them as technoligcally-advanced, tyranical & saddistic butcher whom literally suck the life out of other 'so-called' sentient beings.

I've been gathering a illustration, in my head, that applies to this quoted post.

Think of human society from a basic standpoint:

We all have inherited a basic urge to reproduce, expand and be number one (especially at ski ball and Halo 2), but in the process of accomplishing these ingrained urges we cause a lot of problems along the way. War, pollution, suffering are just a few of the horrors caused by the human need to fulfill their selfish desires.

The Wraith are united by one urge: the need to feed off the life-force of other beings. In the pursuit of this the Wraith have caused a multitude of undeserved hardships on other sentient races. Their selfish need to feed is comparable, despite cultural differences, to the selfish human need to expand and gain power. The dividing point is that the Wraith "must" feed (unless they expand on specifically on whether or not they can only feed on humans, and yes I know about Hot Zone).

But.....the main difference between the Wraith and human is that humans make strong-willed attempts to avoid the tragedy caused by these urges. By-products of expansion i.e. pollution are addressed constantly, most are dealt with. Slavery is gone in almost every part of the world. Times could be better, but this isn't a discussion of world affairs.

Now if the Wraith have been doing what they have been doing for millions of years (I'm unsure of the timeframe) and have not made attempts to ease the by-products of their urges than I definitely view them as evil. I may be making a comparison based on our own society, but I do believe living without fear of losing your life is a basic universal constant.

As for the animal/human/wraith conundrum it definitely does depend on your viewpoint. There is a distinct difference between animals and humans whether you consider instinctial decision-making, morals or the ability to distinguish yourself as an individual. I don't believe in the mistreatment of animals, but I don't also dont compare them to humans. To justify what the Wraith do to humans by comparing it to what we do to animals is a little ridiculous considering that not all humans eat animals or kill animals. Maybe not all Wraith eat humans, but it seems as though the majority do and enjoy themselves doing it. Based on lack of sociological information pertaining to the Wraith the discussion can only go so far (I'm pointing out the obvious, dammit!). Joe, give us more in-depth Wraithage!

Anyway...just my viewpoint on things.

shovar
March 14th, 2005, 12:42 AM
the wraith aren't evil, they're just misunderstood, they have to eat to live, as do we, but where we eat food, they eat lifeforces out of people so it's just that they're not evil, we just think that they are! :D

American3.141592654
March 14th, 2005, 03:45 PM
Well, the Wraith are predators, too, aren't they? So they're allowed to play with their food. ;)


It's not so much a question of "allowed to or not" as "instinctual behavior" kind of stuff... Humans don't play with their food quite so much except some might argue that the passtime of fishing or even hunting was instances of doing exactly that. They are after all considered "sport" and I'm not talking about the paper in England. Thing is they'd do so instinctively on their own...

American3.141592654
March 14th, 2005, 03:51 PM
The Wraith, I think, are not inheriantly evil per sae, although they do seem to take great pleasure in sucking the lifeforce out of a victim.


Have you EVER seen a woman eating chocolate and enjoying it WAY WAY too much? Same thing I think...



Then again, from the Wraith point of view, it is hard to have respect for anything one considers food.

Just look at our attitude of chickens. I mean we have sayings like "bird brain" for stupid people and so on...


Keep in mind also, that they have a level of technology on par with that of the Ancients, & might view other, less technologically-evolved species as 'inferior' (just as the arrogant belief of the Tollan about the Goa'uuld & others being 'too primitive' cuased their downfall at the hands of Anubis). This superiority complex coupled with the nature of their species (being a parastical, vampiric kind of people), would go a long way to help us understand why they acy like they do.


It's not so much the technology level as they have a mental capacity that is higher than that of humans and even ancients. Telepathy can be a double edged sword. ;) hehe...



Their culture is very alien & as beyound us, just as our culture is probably beyound their comprehension. The Wraith would see us as primitive, strange & a food source to be consumed; just as we see them as technoligcally-advanced, tyranical & saddistic butcher whom literally suck the life out of other 'so-called' sentient beings.


It might not even be beyond them so much as below them. ;)

Ouroboros
March 14th, 2005, 09:35 PM
I have a hard time seeing them as outright evil myself, even if that was perhaps what was intended. They're far more grey area than the Goa'uld for certain.

Getting back to some of the earlier points made about Humans and cattle VS Wraith and Humans there's another side to that analogy, other than the sentient vs non sentiant one, that's been perhaps overlooked.(or maybe it wasn't I admit I didn't read all the pages).

Anyway what I'm getting at is the idea of industrialized mechanical slaughter like goes on in our own live food industry. The Wraith don't for example breed huge quantities of humans and keep them confied in unnaturally small environments, pumped full of drugs and what not, their entire existences reshaped through technology to optimise them strickly as a food source.

Rather than take this course of action, which would seem easily within the scope of their technology, the Wraith actually inconvienience themselves with their long hibernations to allow the human populations to replenish naturally. From what I understand it these hibernations last thousands of years during which entire generations of humans will live and die having never even seen a Wraith.

When the series first aired and it was explained that the Wraith sleep between feedings one of the first things that came to my mind was "why don't they just farm/breed/artificially grow the humans so they don't have to sleep at all?".

The best I could come up with was that it was some sort of social hangup regarding them thinking such a process unsporting/unfair to the prey or perhaps just boring and unrewarding for them. I do have some trouble thinking they care about being sporting when they're scooping up pre-industrial people with teleporter beams and giant spacecraft however.

There's also the issue of the value of human vs Wraith life

Everything we've seen from the Wraith indicates that they do not in any way view humans as equals. Given their various mental powers, physical feats, technology level and potential for immortality it's easy to see how they came to such a conclusion.

The immortality is probably the most important element. They presumably know that humans do not and can not ever hope to live unending lives the way they potentially can. This would make it incredibly easy for them to view humans lives as essentialy disposable batteries which will burn out anyway if not used to extend their own, thus being needlessly wasted if not consumed.

While a Wraith viewing itself as superior might seem evil from our perspective it's difficult to imagine how the Wraith itself would come to any other conclusion from it's own, especially when it has a million other voices in it's head telling it how tasty humans are.

In reality however I doubt if they care about justfication for their actions. They're doing the only thing they can do in order to continue to exist and that handily trumps any moral qualms that might pop up, being as species wide voluntary extinction is never going to be a viable alternative for any being capable of higher level thought.

Ancient 1
March 15th, 2005, 05:25 PM
The wraith just need a better PR man. *S*

Magnus
March 15th, 2005, 08:11 PM
The wraith just need a better PR man. *S*
LMAO. That's too true.

American3.141592654
March 16th, 2005, 01:19 PM
I have a hard time seeing them as outright evil myself, even if that was perhaps what was intended. They're far more grey area than the Goa'uld for certain.

I don't actually think that THAT was what was intended.. I think they were intended to be definitely more threatening than the Gua'uld and more dangerous than them as well but not necessarily more evil or even outright evil... Actually the Ancients seem to be getting depicted more and more as evil or potentially evil by some of the stuff that is coming out about them..


Getting back to some of the earlier points made about Humans and cattle VS Wraith and Humans there's another side to that analogy, other than the sentient vs non sentiant one, that's been perhaps overlooked.(or maybe it wasn't I admit I didn't read all the pages).

I doubt anything gets overlooked by the folks around here actually..


Anyway what I'm getting at is the idea of industrialized mechanical slaughter like goes on in our own live food industry. The Wraith don't for example breed huge quantities of humans and keep them confied in unnaturally small environments, pumped full of drugs and what not, their entire existences reshaped through technology to optimise them strickly as a food source.

I am proven wrong, it was sorta over looked but you must admit that they have aspects of "farming" in how they leave the fields alone to grow more and more humans, and in the mean time they sleep waiting out their hunger every so many years at a time and then they harvest the humans and eagerly feed on them.


Rather than take this course of action, which would seem easily within the scope of their technology, the Wraith actually inconvienience themselves with their long hibernations to allow the human populations to replenish naturally. From what I understand it these hibernations last thousands of years during which entire generations of humans will live and die having never even seen a Wraith.

Not quite that long, we're talking in the hundreds instead of in the thousands..


When the series first aired and it was explained that the Wraith sleep between feedings one of the first things that came to my mind was "why don't they just farm/breed/artificially grow the humans so they don't have to sleep at all?".

The best I could come up with was that it was some sort of social hangup regarding them thinking such a process unsporting/unfair to the prey or perhaps just boring and unrewarding for them. I do have some trouble thinking they care about being sporting when they're scooping up pre-industrial people with teleporter beams and giant spacecraft however.

There's also the issue of the value of human vs Wraith life

Everything we've seen from the Wraith indicates that they do not in any way view humans as equals. Given their various mental powers, physical feats, technology level and potential for immortality it's easy to see how they came to such a conclusion.

Immorality for the record is not ethics... Morals are the values of a social group thus they sorta very from group to group and the wraith would definitely not see the kulling of humans as immoral since humans are nothing to them but food.


The immortality is probably the most important element. They presumably know that humans do not and can not ever hope to live unending lives the way they potentially can. This would make it incredibly easy for them to view humans lives as essentialy disposable batteries which will burn out anyway if not used to extend their own, thus being needlessly wasted if not consumed.

While a Wraith viewing itself as superior might seem evil from our perspective it's difficult to imagine how the Wraith itself would come to any other conclusion from it's own, especially when it has a million other voices in it's head telling it how tasty humans are.

I think it's instinct and not peer pressure that make the wraith do what they do. The humans and the ancients for that matter probably posed a threat to them early on (esspecially if they themselves were seen as a mistake by the ancients) and they themselves won plus the stakes were pretty high. Remember that the two species (or species and subspecies or hybrid species if you would) were at war with eachother for quite some time over fairly fundamental issues, like life and death. They weren't just squabling over how to divide the resources of a planet or vague ideological views or some stupid crap about royal families either... They were at war for their survival and the existence of their species. They knew they couldn't kill off the ancients entirely because of a biological shortcoming they needed to feed from them but they definitely couldn't let them go unchecked cause they may wish to commit genocide.


In reality however I doubt if they care about justfication for their actions. They're doing the only thing they can do in order to continue to exist and that handily trumps any moral qualms that might pop up, being as species wide voluntary extinction is never going to be a viable alternative for any being capable of higher level thought.

I'd argue that they probably feel justified cause odds are the "ships" that the peace envoy arrived in were war ships and they probably only tried opting for peace after they discovered the wraith existed and tried to end that cause after all they were a mistake. Anyway, if I were in the wraith's shoes I think I'd see things differently than if I were a human in the galaxy or part of the Atlantis crew. hehe... They sleep between kullings and keep the humans alive so they can feed again and don't farm, and they don't clear cut the human races from their galaxy and all neighboring galaxies which is another option...

American3.141592654
March 16th, 2005, 04:02 PM
The wraith just need a better PR man. *S*


That or else they need a good lawyer to bring up slander charges against everybody in the Peg., galaxy who says they're a scurge... I suggest Alyssa Milano's lawyer from that scene in Family guy where she says "What a cheap shot" and he says, "I'm sueing I'm sueing...." hehe... Or course that's possible since this too is a TV show, and it'd be fun to see. OR the unfrozen caveman lawyer but since Phil is no more I doubt they'd be able to get him... But anyway, lawyers are good for this stuff cause they're willing to do just about anything for a buck and they're pretty much the only people that the rest of us could make fun of cause no matter how capable they are of getting us back for some reason they never do. ;) To be fair Lawyers are necessary cause without them we'd all be in jail. ;) Anyway, the lawyer thing wouldn't work either cause odds are the wraith would eat the lawyer too. hehe..

Ouroboros
March 17th, 2005, 10:00 AM
I don't actually think that THAT was what was intended.. I think they were intended to be definitely more threatening than the Gua'uld and more dangerous than them as well but not necessarily more evil or even outright evil... Actually the Ancients seem to be getting depicted more and more as evil or potentially evil by some of the stuff that is coming out about them.

I hope you're right but I'm having my doubts largely do to how Shep and company keep casually murdering/torturing Wraith POWs and no one seems to really bat an eyelash about it. They're just badguys afterall.

They never really came off as threatening as the Goa'uld to me either, at least not yet. Remember how Pop's and friends stormed the gate in the SG premiere nearly impervious to everything the guards could throw at them. That was a good first impression. The only reason SG-1 survived that first encounter was because Teal'c turned and helped them, and it felt that way to the viewer.

The Wraith got hordes of their soldiers wasted by two guys with sub machine guns who just strolled into their motheship. Then their evil bosslady was killed with a pointy stick.


I am proven wrong, it was sorta over looked but you must admit that they have aspects of "farming" in how they leave the fields alone to grow more and more humans, and in the mean time they sleep waiting out their hunger every so many years at a time and then they harvest the humans and eagerly feed on them.

I'd consider that more hunting behavior that farming. They leave the prey population alone until it's time for a hunt. Farming requires domestication, the humans in Pegasus are "wild" if you will. If they were domesticated they'd be living near their Wraith overseers and relying on them for food, shelter and what have you until such time as they were judged as being fit for slaughter.


Not quite that long, we're talking in the hundreds instead of in the thousands.

Ok was never quite clear on exactly how long the sleeps lasted. It's still plenty of time for a few generations to live without significant threat from the Wraith. How much would human numbers be able to increase in that shorter time though... doesn't seem like it would be a lot, especially not of the cullings take the majority of a given population.


Immorality for the record is not ethics... Morals are the values of a social group thus they sorta very from group to group and the wraith would definitely not see the kulling of humans as immoral since humans are nothing to them but food.

You missed a T in there. :D

I was talking about their immorTality.


I think it's instinct and not peer pressure that make the wraith do what they do. The humans and the ancients for that matter probably posed a threat to them early on (esspecially if they themselves were seen as a mistake by the ancients) and they themselves won plus the stakes were pretty high. Remember that the two species (or species and subspecies or hybrid species if you would) were at war with eachother for quite some time over fairly fundamental issues, like life and death. They weren't just squabling over how to divide the resources of a planet or vague ideological views or some stupid crap about royal families either... They were at war for their survival and the existence of their species. They knew they couldn't kill off the ancients entirely because of a biological shortcoming they needed to feed from them but they definitely couldn't let them go unchecked cause they may wish to commit genocide.

I also got the impression from certain scenes that the ancients had intended to genocide all the Wraith as their chosen means of solving the Wraith problem their science had created.

I don't doubt that the Wraith felt fully justified in whipping up on the ancients, they should if the ancients intended to whipe out or possibly enslave them.


I'd argue that they probably feel justified cause odds are the "ships" that the peace envoy arrived in were war ships and they probably only tried opting for peace after they discovered the wraith existed and tried to end that cause after all they were a mistake. Anyway, if I were in the wraith's shoes I think I'd see things differently than if I were a human in the galaxy or part of the Atlantis crew. hehe... They sleep between kullings and keep the humans alive so they can feed again and don't farm, and they don't clear cut the human races from their galaxy and all neighboring galaxies which is another option...

In my opinion the ancients sent out a peace envoy because they knew if they didn't try to make peace soon they were done for. The Wraith had become too powerful to be casually whiped out of existence like they'd initially intended so now they were forced to actually treat them as equals and attempt negotiation, that one must have stung.

The Wraith probably realized that they could easily win by this point and agreed to the conference only because it would allow them to destroy more of the Ancient fleet and thus shorten the war even further.

American3.141592654
March 17th, 2005, 07:25 PM
I hope you're right but I'm having my doubts largely do to how Shep and company keep casually murdering/torturing Wraith POWs and no one seems to really bat an eyelash about it. They're just badguys afterall.

Yeah, thing is, they feel much like the wraith do, that since they're dealing with another species they don't have to award them the same respect they would their own kind.


They never really came off as threatening as the Goa'uld to me either, at least not yet. Remember how Pop's and friends stormed the gate in the SG premiere nearly impervious to everything the guards could throw at them. That was a good first impression. The only reason SG-1 survived that first encounter was because Teal'c turned and helped them, and it felt that way to the viewer.

Maybe not by their actions so much as their stats... For one there are a whole lot more of them then there are of the Gua'uld and they are a lot more powerful than the Gua'uld. The wraith who have died are now more akin to zerglings than to the Gua'uld who troops that died were more like navy seals... ;)


The Wraith got hordes of their soldiers wasted by two guys with sub machine guns who just strolled into their motheship. Then their evil bosslady was killed with a pointy stick.

Well, yeah they were definitely lucky but the wraith should have been far more effective than they were given their biology. They were probably stunned cause like other bullies they weren't accustomed to the humans standing up to them.




I'd consider that more hunting behavior that farming. They leave the prey population alone until it's time for a hunt. Farming requires domestication, the humans in Pegasus are "wild" if you will. If they were domesticated they'd be living near their Wraith overseers and relying on them for food, shelter and what have you until such time as they were judged as being fit for slaughter.

You could argue that it's sorta like how they farm free range chickens in some countries. It is like the DNR (Department of Natural Resources) doing population control and so on, on things like deer and then those deer are hunted for sport however that action is almost like farming in that it's totally artificial and the "hunt" isn't the same as it happens in the wild where a predator has to bring down the game and usually brings down and eats the weak but it's some idiot with a rifle trying to "bag me a 30 point buck" err some rot like that...




Ok was never quite clear on exactly how long the sleeps lasted. It's still plenty of time for a few generations to live without significant threat from the Wraith. How much would human numbers be able to increase in that shorter time though... doesn't seem like it would be a lot, especially not of the cullings take the majority of a given population.


Well they said it right out how long between cullings when they first met the Genii... They also said it when they met that other group with the wacky gene, and pretty much every episode they run into a people who are fairly confident they are safe cause the wraith are not coming soon for they won't come for another 50 years or something like that...



You missed a T in there. :D

I was talking about their immorTality.

My bad... But anyway, they're not necessarily immortal. They're just really tough to kill. ;)


I also got the impression from certain scenes that the ancients had intended to genocide all the Wraith as their chosen means of solving the Wraith problem their science had created.

I don't doubt that the Wraith felt fully justified in whipping up on the ancients, they should if the ancients intended to whipe out or possibly enslave them.

these are related... Yes, the wraith were a "mistake" but they definitely were interesting and should have at least been asked "do you want to live" and if they can say, "Yes, we'd appreciate that" try to figure something out. I think that the Wraith were definitely justified in their actions.


In my opinion the ancients sent out a peace envoy because they knew if they didn't try to make peace soon they were done for. The Wraith had become too powerful to be casually whiped out of existence like they'd initially intended so now they were forced to actually treat them as equals and attempt negotiation, that one must have stung.

The Wraith probably realized that they could easily win by this point and agreed to the conference only because it would allow them to destroy more of the Ancient fleet and thus shorten the war even further.

Yeah, I figure that's sorta what happened if they had to agree to this envoy but the envoy would look suspicious if they were in combat ships...

Raicho
March 17th, 2005, 10:08 PM
In reality however I doubt if they care about justfication for their actions. They're doing the only thing they can do in order to continue to exist and that handily trumps any moral qualms that might pop up, being as species wide voluntary extinction is never going to be a viable alternative for any being capable of higher level thought.

At their level of technological advancement they should be seeking alternative "feeding" sources to lessen the inconvenience of having a civilization rise up against their own (unless the need to feed is instinctual, which would not make them a higher being per se but more animalistic).

Butttt... they could be just a bunch of slacking ass hats then it would be semi-justified. :p

Ouroboros
March 18th, 2005, 12:59 AM
Yeah, thing is, they feel much like the wraith do, that since they're dealing with another species they don't have to award them the same respect they would their own kind.

Well that would make them hypocrites now wouldn't it. You'd think Shep especially would hnow better given how Sumner's death/interrogation evidently still haunts him.


Maybe not by their actions so much as their stats... For one there are a whole lot more of them then there are of the Gua'uld and they are a lot more powerful than the Gua'uld. The wraith who have died are now more akin to zerglings than to the Gua'uld who troops that died were more like navy seals...

I tried to tell myself the same thing in the begining to. "Oh those were just the caretakers, basicaly janitors and nightwatchmen, of course they're going to be pushovers. You just wait until the REAL Wraith warriors wake up.

I never got it though.

Best explanation I can come up with is that they've become complacent as a race and started to really take their little racket in Pegasus for granted. As a result they've all pretty much wussed out getting fat on easy to kill humans for thousands of years and exploiting the intimidating reputation they have to keep anyone from ever attacking them.


Well, yeah they were definitely lucky but the wraith should have been far more effective than they were given their biology. They were probably stunned cause like other bullies they weren't accustomed to the humans standing up to them.

Being stunned doesn't account for the ease with which they were dispatched though, as in the qauntity of damage needed. The Wraith warriors initially seemed no harder to drop with gunfire than a human and as mentioned the wraith "boss" keeper was dispatched when someone just walked up to her with a sharp object and stabbed her with it.

The headshots I can accept but the body shots and especially the lame low speed stabbing didn't exactly scream out to me "these guys are really hard to kill see". It said to me, wow just about any Goa'uld out there could whup them all at the same time couldn't he.

To their credit they did a lot better later on with eps like the defiant one and the one where they first captured steave. As they say though you only get one chance at a first impression and I get the feeling the first impression of the Wraith for a lot of people was, they beat the ancients how?


You could argue that it's sorta like how they farm free range chickens in some countries. It is like the DNR (Department of Natural Resources) doing population control and so on, on things like deer and then those deer are hunted for sport however that action is almost like farming in that it's totally artificial and the "hunt" isn't the same as it happens in the wild where a predator has to bring down the game and usually brings down and eats the weak but it's some idiot with a rifle trying to "bag me a 30 point buck" err some rot like that...

Well yes it is artificial in the sense that it's pretty much a controlled environment for the Wraith and one that holds very little risk as well. All I was really trying to do earlier was call attention to the fact that there don't seem to be any Wraith stockades packed to the bursting point with barely mobile humans loaded up with steriods and what not living only to, breed, be killed and eaten and knowing nothing else.

I'm not an animal activist by any stretch but when you apply comercial farming/slaughter techniques to sentiants you really do end up with a nightmare scenario. One that for whatever reason the Wraith have not created.


My bad... But anyway, they're not necessarily immortal. They're just really tough to kill.

By immortal I just meant that they won't ever die a natural death. I've wondered for a while what effect a sarcophogus would have on a Wraith, or perhaps his most recent snack.


these are related... Yes, the wraith were a "mistake" but they definitely were interesting and should have at least been asked "do you want to live" and if they can say, "Yes, we'd appreciate that" try to figure something out. I think that the Wraith were definitely justified in their actions.

Well yeah the response to "hey look we just created a new race of sentients by accident" isn't supposed to be "oops, better get the orbital nukes".

The ancients seem to have a tendancy to take the easy way out of their screw-ups regrdless of, well, just about anything else really. These are afterall the same people who left a galaxy killing weapon just sitting there for anyone to find and didn't want to intervene when an evil being who they'd essentialy created and allowed to run loose on a killing spree now intended to use that weapon to kill everything in an entire galaxy.

Tell me who the bad guys are supposed to be again?


At their level of technological advancement they should be seeking alternative "feeding" sources to lessen the inconvenience of having a civilization rise up against their own (unless the need to feed is instinctual, which would not make them a higher being per se but more animalistic).

I wonder if what they suck out of humans can be artificially created. I'm not a spiritual person but I don't buy that it's all hard science and biology. You can't rapidly age someone over the span of seconds just by sucking chemicals out of them; especially when you don't seem to gain a significant amount of "water weight", or indeed any additional mass at all, from sucking a guy bone dry dead.

GatetheWay
March 25th, 2005, 10:13 AM
You know, so far reading this thread really brings to mind the name Friedrich Nietzsche (http://www.friesian.com/nietzsch.htmhttp)

Inferno D
March 25th, 2005, 10:35 AM
If Wraiths are evil then veryone else is too. Ancients, humans, Jaffa. They do what they need to live.

knocknashee
March 25th, 2005, 11:18 AM
The food on your plate at dinner was once something that lived - whether or not there was meat on there. Do you consider yourself evil for eating the flesh of an animal that once lived? Or that a carrot died for you to eat?

The argument of sentience makes no difference really - the Wraith consider humanoid life 'food'. To them, we are a carrot...

cobraR478
March 25th, 2005, 12:04 PM
I wonder if what they suck out of humans can be artificially created. I'm not a spiritual person but I don't buy that it's all hard science and biology. You can't rapidly age someone over the span of seconds just by sucking chemicals out of them; especially when you don't seem to gain a significant amount of "water weight", or indeed any additional mass at all, from sucking a guy bone dry dead.
The Siege Spoiler(I Think)

Bob the Wraith said something along the lines of "Those that feed upon you will know what you have done to me" Things like that, and the stuff you pointed out, tend to make me agree with you on this. It seems to be more than just sucking the nutrients and whatnot from the body.

Dahak
March 25th, 2005, 10:23 PM
I don't really think the Wraith are "evil". Like many have said the only reason too declare someone evil is to justify all of your own questionable actions.
Does it matter though? No the Wraith have set themselves up so it's either them and their human cattle or it's free humans. Is it likely the people of the Pegasus galaxy would ever say forgive and forget to the Wraith? If the humans had the same level of technology as the Wraith the Wraith would be screwed. Also it doesn't matter if these opinions are wrong. The humans might be willing to come up with some kind of treaty but it the Wraith don't believe the humans would follow it they would be stupid to reach a deal. There have been similar behavior on Earth of people getting stuck by past decisions Sparta probably being the best example.
As far as why the Wraith act the way they do I think the alternatives would be worse. We don't know for sure if the Wraith can feed off of animals but if they can't they need to "eat" humans. Ranches would be FAR worse and (since it's a tv show after all) it would never be shown. No one would want to see that. Hunting is sort of crueler than ranching but a lot better for the species as a whole.

col_oatmeal
April 16th, 2005, 04:28 PM
Are Wraith just pure evil? or are they just trying to live and grow?


And do they have a right to grow?

SmartFox
April 16th, 2005, 09:15 PM
IMO the fact they take pleasure in killing others is evil. All creatures have to eat something but you don't have to torture or torment your food.

aaobuttons
April 16th, 2005, 10:29 PM
IMO the fact they take pleasure in killing others is evil. All creatures have to eat something but you don't have to torture or torment your food.


So if they just killed them quickly it would be ok?

Ouroboros
April 17th, 2005, 03:38 AM
They're probably the least "bad" badguys in the Stargate franchise considering the only alternative we've seen to their current behavior would amount to voluntary extinction and that's hardly a reasonable demand to make of any species.

The Wraith also don't take pleasure in killing, they take pleasure in eating. There's a difference.

seige 2 spoilers below

In seige part 2 Wraith Bob actually doesn't kill Bates the security guy for some reason even though he'd already beaten him into a coma and could have finised him off as an afterthought.

If Bob was a pleasure killer he would have well, killed for pleasure. He couldn't eat Bates because it would have given him away so he beat him sensless probably with the idea that he'd "save him for later" to eat when the Wraith took Atlantis.
"

Ses
April 17th, 2005, 03:45 AM
Misunderstood! Poor things! :) tee hee

As for the pleasure when killing... does that make Fisherman & Hunters evil (yes! lol)... and have you ever had pleasure eating a hamburger?

adk06
January 29th, 2006, 05:43 PM
On the surface, the Wraith are life sucking aliens, but aren't they just doing what they need to survive, I mean is it really any different then Humans killing animals because we need the food. We don't need the food, we could live on vegtables.

I mean say we didn't have our technology and they didn't have theres, it would be Wraith vs Human, the wraith would win there stronger,Survival of the fittest?

Colonel Dixon
January 29th, 2006, 05:50 PM
See SG-1 Season 3's "Pretense" for my (and Daniel's) argument.

adk06
January 29th, 2006, 06:07 PM
ah the Tollan Skara and Klorel Incident, but I don't put the Wraith in the same box as the Goa'uld

The Goa'uld don't need to have human hosts to survive, (they can survive in a water source with electric energy)

unless your argument is about wraith lemme check that now :)

JanusAncient
January 29th, 2006, 06:09 PM
Actually, I believe you are right, the Wraith drain life energy from humans, because it is the only thing they've discovered capable of sustaining them. They are doing what they need to to survive, now the Wraith in The Defiant One was evil, feeding on other Wraith.

Render
January 29th, 2006, 06:13 PM
I dont think the wraith are evil, but then egain, they did destroy the ancies (or so we assume) and the ancients were the one people who could hae helped them find and alternative food source

freyr's mother
January 29th, 2006, 06:15 PM
Actually, I believe you are right, the Wraith drain life energy from humans, because it is the only thing they've discovered capable of sustaining them. They are doing what they need to to survive, now the Wraith in The Defiant One was evil, feeding on other Wraith.

That doesnt necesscerally mean he's evil, it just means he's cannibalistic.

adk06
January 29th, 2006, 06:17 PM
This actually reminds me of the episode Scorched Earth when the Gad'meer come to teraform a planet and Sg1 has to decide whether an advanced society on the brink of destruction or a primitive human culture is worth more. It comes down to which is more important, Wraith life or Human Life, it's all a matter of perspective. hmm anyone thinking of H.G wells "War of the Worlds"

JedI Master of the Gate
January 29th, 2006, 06:20 PM
I dont think the wraith are evil, but then egain, they did destroy the ancies (or so we assume) and the ancients were the one people who could hae helped them find and alternative food source

Yeah but whats the bet that the Ancients started the fight because the Wraith were feeding on their "children" (Humens).

Wraith_Hunter
January 29th, 2006, 06:22 PM
The Wraith are vil, all this they're just doing it to survive is crap!

First, Look at Ronon, they couldn't feed on him. So therefore they captured him & subjected him to experiments. All while he was fully aware & awake of what was happening to him. Then he was hunted for many years. Everytime he stopped long enough, they came & wiped out whoever was helping him.

Then we see them destroying worlds completely such as 'Sateda', why would they do that, if they either couldn't feed on the people or wiping out millions of potential sources of food.

Why did the Wraith come & wipe out Teyla's ancestors village after they found out about their scientists's experiments on some of the villagers. Yet rather than just taking the ones that had been affected, through no fault of their own & against their will. The untouched ones were also punished for absolutely no reason.

We have seen a Hive Queen keeping humans alive to do her bedding, because they have come to worship the Wraith as God's.

Need I go on! Bottom line, they aren't only evil, they are sadistic as well.

adk06
January 29th, 2006, 06:25 PM
Humans could use an alternative food source but we choose not to, we use our technology to kill some animals that would otherwise kill us.The storyline is like an allegorical representation of things on earth. Do the writers ever specify if they're ideas for these shows were swayed by anything?

and i think the Ancients did start the fight just as a mother would protect her young, but even if the mother is stronger, if there's more of the enemy the mother won't win

adk06
January 29th, 2006, 06:28 PM
Those humans are only "worshipping" the wraith because they don't wanna get the life sucked out of them, the women in Shepard's in S3 Episode 11 was probably from an advanced culture, she knew they weren't G-d's

Wraith_Hunter
January 29th, 2006, 06:47 PM
Your hypothesising to try & pass speculations off as fact.

They probably were from an advanced culture, what would make you think that? I'm sure the Wraith can get things like that out of them. Therefore it's been said in the show that they worship them as God's. So unless you have more 'official' speech then that's the way it is!

The same goes for the ancients 'supposedly' starting the war! Nothing has been said on this, other than the hologram saying that they set foot on a dark world & encountered beings with power that rivalled their own.

Wasn't it also known as 'fact' that the ancients even tried negotiating with the Wraith, yet they destroyed them while making the attempt. As well as destroying an unarmed transport ship while it was trying to make it back to Atlantis.

You can make all these comparisons about us & them all you like, the simple fact is that they are sadistic & evil. You want to compare, then compare this. They wipe out a races of people on numerous planets. Which they then put the blue beam on these empty planets to know if anyone tries to hide their at any point in the future. So that's like saying that we tried to kill a lion. Couldn't manage it & so wiped out the lion species on Earyh because of our failure.

The same goes for the hunting Dex & wiping out everybody & place that he ever stayed too long in while he was a 'Runner'. Why did they hold him down & not even bother to sedate him while cutting him open & implanting a tracker? Perhaps they didn't have any shots left in all of their stunners & so couldn't have any to spare to put him out.

Why not come & check if the villagers were the ones that had been experimented on, rather than wiping them all out. Especially since it was the Wraith who done it to them in the first place.

Starting to get the point! The simple fact is that they are evil & sadistic in doing so.

Major Tyler
January 29th, 2006, 06:59 PM
It's an interesting dichotomy. They kill us to eat and we kill them to prevent them from eating. Both species, arguably, have the right to live, but at the same time neither can live concurrently. Whose right to life is more important? Because we are human we come to the conclusion that humans are more important...does that make us evil? The Wraith come to the conclusion that they are more important for the same reason we do.

Makes you think...

Lightsabre
January 29th, 2006, 07:08 PM
Humans could use an alternative food source but we choose not to, we use our technology to kill some animals that would otherwise kill us.The storyline is like an allegorical representation of things on earth. Do the writers ever specify if they're ideas for these shows were swayed by anything?

and i think the Ancients did start the fight just as a mother would protect her young, but even if the mother is stronger, if there's more of the enemy the mother won't win
There are two differences here.
Humans need meat to stay healthy is one. We have to eat animals much as the wraith need to eat humans.
the second is that we punish cruelty to animals, and decry it as evil.
The wraith revel in it.
finally, humans have a greater self knowledge than cattle. Arguably, it is a worse crime to kill a human than to kill a wraith.

Wraith_Hunter
January 29th, 2006, 07:20 PM
It's an interesting dichotomy. They kill us to eat and we kill them to prevent them from eating. Both species, arguably, have the right to live, but at the same time neither can live concurrently. Whose right to life is more important? Because we are human we come to the conclusion that humans are more important...does that make us evil? The Wraith come to the conclusion that they are more important for the same reason we do.

Makes you think...


If it were as simple as that, then there could be no complainst. It's how they go about it, they can't feed on a civilization, so rather than leaving it alone it gets completely destroyed.

They can't feed on a person, so hold him against his will. Do experiments & then hold him down & savagely cut him open with a sadistic grin on the surgeons face. All while the victim is lying fully awake & feeling every nook & cranny as the blade cuts open his skin. Then have to endure something un-natural being shoved in.

The same for Teyla's ancestors!

That proves they are evil. It's not just about survival, there is a lot more going on with them. So they should be wiped out with extreme prejudice. The SGC had no qualms of releasing the symbiote poision in Ex Deus Machina, so one should be developed for the Wraith & it be deployed inside their Hive ships.

adk06
January 29th, 2006, 07:53 PM
finally, humans have a greater self knowledge than cattle. Arguably, it is a worse crime to kill a human than to kill a wraith.

you know about that, maybe it's there life that are more valuable because there in balance with there enviroment. Human's do destroy forests and such to build cities I don't agree with this persa but it's an interesting point someone said to me when I was having a similiar discussion

Lightsabre
January 29th, 2006, 08:03 PM
you know about that, maybe it's there life that are more valuable because there in balance with there enviroment. Human's do destroy forests and such to build cities I don't agree with this persa but it's an interesting point someone said to me when I was having a similiar discussion
hmm, I dont' quite follow.
It's not as bad to kill a human, cause humans cut down trees?
I'm not sure how they relate?
I'm talking about the intrinsic nature of a person, compared to a cow or a sheep or a dog.

JedI Master of the Gate
January 29th, 2006, 08:35 PM
Just because some Wraith take joy in the pain of humens, doesn't mean that the whole race is evil, it just makes that one wraith evil.

Its like saying that humens are evil, because Hitler was evil!

Also, why is it that they are evil, just because we say so? To them it might not be evil, just the way they were raised.

ckwongau
January 29th, 2006, 08:42 PM
well,
A Goa'uld can also use some animal as host, SG1 S5 "TheTomb".But a Wraith can only eat human life force to survive.

I think A Wraith may have more right to exist in Pegasus then human ,After all their ancestor (iratus bug ) were the native lifeform of Pegasus

The Ancient and human invaded their homeworld , they eat them and evove into humanoid form,they need human life force to survive.

Spoiler for episode "Michael"
*
*
*
*Highlight the following
Teyla justify their medical experiment on Michael ,by telling him he is better off as human , because Wraith are Evil
*
*
*
I wish if Captain Picard were there to argue Michael's case with Teyla,I understand SGA's point of view .It is a War, survival of the fittness.
But for Teyla to claim moral highground on the issue of good and Evil is just too much.

Medical experiment on prisoner of War is wrong , to medically turn a Wraith into a human is wrong because every species has to right to exist.

Ouroboros
January 29th, 2006, 10:01 PM
On the surface, the Wraith are life sucking aliens, but aren't they just doing what they need to survive, I mean is it really any different then Humans killing animals because we need the food. We don't need the food, we could live on vegtables.

Are the Wraith evil?

The short answer: no.

The longer answer: no, but after 5 pages of debating sentience, whether or no they can eat other things and a few people popping in just to yell "it's us or them, kill or be killed!" as if that answers the question.

:D

Regarding who's life is more valuable in an objective sense don't forget the Wraith are apparently immortal. That's to say they won't actually die unless some outside force ends their life.

Using that fact alone you can easily argue that robbing a Wraith of its life is worse than doing the same to a human since the Wraith wasn't going to die in X number of years anyway if you hadn't killed him.

If you were a Wraith it would also be easy to justify sustaining your immortality just by eating a bunch of things that were going to go to waste by dieing on their own if you didn't eat them also.

ckwongau
January 30th, 2006, 12:30 AM
There are two differences here.
Humans need meat to stay healthy is one. We have to eat animals much as the wraith need to eat humans.

Well, not all human require meat to stay health, some vegetarian are as healthy as any meat eater (i don't know why ,but it happen)
And spoiler for Michael
*
*
If the new retrovirus can make a Wraith a human, then a Wraith human can live without consuming human life force, but require daily injection.
*
*
In theory if we offer them the new drug ,they can choose to stop eating human.But it would be like forcing normal people to become vegetarian ,and the urge for eating human lifeforce will always be there.
But if the Wraith are given a choice , most of them will not take it, but some may ,like the Goa'uld who reject taking host by force they become Tok'ra.
We saw the Wraith girl in S2 "Instrinct" who want to be human, she eat human because she can't stop herself, and her human father let her suck his life force ,but she didn't want to harm him.


the second is that we punish cruelty to animals, and decry it as evil.
The wraith revel in it.

There are many kind of cruelty to animal , it dependent on your cultural perpective, like some Japanese who eat the lobsters while there are still alive. cut them piece by piece,Are the Japanese evil because they like to eat their food fresh.They defend themselve by claiming the Lobster can't feel pain like human.
It is not evil if someone take joys in eating their favorite food.
I feel happy whenever i have steak for dinner, am i Evil to the cows.



finally, humans have a greater self knowledge than cattle. Arguably, it is a worse crime to kill a human than to kill a wraith.
You are making a value judgment

T'saria
January 30th, 2006, 09:40 AM
Beautiful discussion. Had a similiar one in another group
and didn't get very far. Apparantly many of the posters
had never heard of the Bell Curve theory. With super
happy nice people on end and Evil Hilter nazi folk on
the other.

Since the wraith are essentially humans whose DNA has
been altered by Iratus bug DNA, one could argue
that they would follow the bell curve theory. Some are
super benign other super sadistic. like the one wraith
that enjoyed torturing people.

but also, it isn't much fun to show happy nice wraith on
the TV show. is it now? and Teyla has a lot of predjudice.
Undertstandably so. But I wouldn't just blindy take her
advice, like the Atlantis group seems to have done. I would
have scoped things out first.

as for us being somehow morally superior to the wraith.
nonsense. the wraith do the same things we do. let's be
honest. personally i think that their "bad" behavior is
from their human DNA. After all if it weren't, how could
we possibly site someone like Hitler in our arguement?
If humans are so perfect, there would be no Hitler to mention.

So..are the wraith evil. no. not in my opinion. just carrying
on those lovely human genes.

FallenAngelII
January 30th, 2006, 10:27 AM
The Wraith are vil, all this they're just doing it to survive is crap!

First, Look at Ronon, they couldn't feed on him. So therefore they captured him & subjected him to experiments. All while he was fully aware & awake of what was happening to him. Then he was hunted for many years. Everytime he stopped long enough, they came & wiped out whoever was helping him.

Then we see them destroying worlds completely such as 'Sateda', why would they do that, if they either couldn't feed on the people or wiping out millions of potential sources of food.

Why did the Wraith come & wipe out Teyla's ancestors village after they found out about their scientists's experiments on some of the villagers. Yet rather than just taking the ones that had been affected, through no fault of their own & against their will. The untouched ones were also punished for absolutely no reason.

We have seen a Hive Queen keeping humans alive to do her bedding, because they have come to worship the Wraith as God's.

Need I go on! Bottom line, they aren't only evil, they are sadistic as well.

Is this any different from us experimenting on animals? Conducting psychological experiments on rats and monkeys before moving onto humans.

And it was probably just a small faction of Wraith who went around wiping out anyone helping him. One who likes hunting for the thrill of it. We have those too. They're called recreational hunters.

About wiping out the entire village instead of just the ones who were infected. And why would they subject themselves to the tedious task of checking who was infected and who wasn't? Why would they care? I mean, look at the Avian Flu. Through no fault of their own, birds everywhere are getting infected. So what do we do? We kill and burn the corpses of every single bird who's got even the remotest chance of having been infected.

Or with the Mad Cow Disease. Entire farms got all of their cattle slaughtered. Any sign of any sick animals with diseases that we can contract and the entire flock gets slaughtered without hesitation.

Hive Queens keep humans to do their bidding because they worship them and want to stay alive. Just because a few of them have deluded themselves into thinking the Wraith are gods does not mean the Wraith think they are gods. Never once have they indicated this. The Wraith Queen in "Rising" was most intelligent. "All that lives must eat" and the whole deal with having to survive and all.

That's what it all really boils down to: They have to survive. Most probably, the Ancients were the one who started fighting the Wraith because they were feeding off of humans and Ancients. Thus was the beginning of the war.

Nothing has been said about the Ancients starting the war. But nothing has been said about the Wraith starting the war either. Or that they fight for pleasure and for no reason. They just want to survive and eat. Why would they fight a looooong war against the Ancients just out of spite?

Wraith Hunter: "You can make all these comparisons about us & them all you like, the simple fact is that they are sadistic & evil. You want to compare, then compare this. They wipe out a races of people on numerous planets. Which they then put the blue beam on these empty planets to know if anyone tries to hide their at any point in the future. So that's like saying that we tried to kill a lion. Couldn't manage it & so wiped out the lion species on Earyh because of our failure."

In which episode did this happen? And it's nothing saying trying to kill a lion and wiping out the entire species.


There are two differences here.
Humans need meat to stay healthy is one. We have to eat animals much as the wraith need to eat humans.
the second is that we punish cruelty to animals, and decry it as evil.
The wraith revel in it.
finally, humans have a greater self knowledge than cattle. Arguably, it is a worse crime to kill a human than to kill a wraith.

1) No we don't. Vegetarians and vegans can be very healthy. I know of vegetarians and vegans who are both taller and more muscular than I am! Then again, I'm Asian and scrawny.
2) When did the Wraith ever revel in cruelty to animals? The whole Runner thing with hunting peopel? Well, it's only been dealt with in one episode and Teyla said "I've heard of these". More like "It's not common". So there are few sadistic Wraiths. There are a few sadistic people as well.
3) It's not a crime at all to kill either unless they're a threat to each other or the Wraith wants to feed.


If it were as simple as that, then there could be no complainst. It's how they go about it, they can't feed on a civilization, so rather than leaving it alone it gets completely destroyed.

They can't feed on a person, so hold him against his will. Do experiments & then hold him down & savagely cut him open with a sadistic grin on the surgeons face. All while the victim is lying fully awake & feeling every nook & cranny as the blade cuts open his skin. Then have to endure something un-natural being shoved in.

The same for Teyla's ancestors!

That proves they are evil. It's not just about survival, there is a lot more going on with them. So they should be wiped out with extreme prejudice. The SGC had no qualms of releasing the symbiote poision in Ex Deus Machina, so one should be developed for the Wraith & it be deployed inside their Hive ships.

OK, where DO you get these facts from? In what episode did they destroy an entire civilization just because they couldn't feed on them? Other than if the civilization were actively fighting them. Predators who are known to kill humans are shot to death if they enter cities or come near civilization, even if they haven't hurt anyone yet. It's self-preservation.

So if the humans were fighting the Wraith, I see no problem in them wiping them out. They have to survive and having an enemy is not a good way of doing so.

Humans actively do research on animals. They put electronic tags on all kinds of animals to keep track of their migration. I can't imagine them sedating fish before putting tags into them.

The Goa'uld were just evil. They enslaved people and killed anyone who wouldn't worship them as gods. The Wraith just kill anyone who try to fight back. No need to worship.


hmm, I dont' quite follow.
It's not as bad to kill a human, cause humans cut down trees?
I'm not sure how they relate?
I'm talking about the intrinsic nature of a person, compared to a cow or a sheep or a dog.

Being a sentinent being does not automatically make it extremely evil to kill you. Dolphins are sentinent beings. Does that mean we automatically think it's very evil for dolphins to be killed and try to protect them from predactors such as sharks? Monkeys are intelligent as well, to a certain degree. Yet we still experiment on them.

And it's not just killing, it's survival. The Wraith cannot feed on anything but humans. Sure, they can eat food, but they cannot survive merely on food alone. Ellia proved that.

So far, we haven't seen the Wraith just kill people because they felt like it. It was either to feed, torture to extract information (hey, if humans can do it to each other...), fend off attackers or rebellions.

Colonel Dixon
January 30th, 2006, 10:34 AM
So..are the wraith evil. no. not in my opinion. just carrying
on those lovely human genes.
That's my argument, but I have a different conclusion. You're assuming that humans aren't bad/evil. I think we are, therefore the Wraith are too. What we get in Atlantis is a group of humans who are, for the most part, doing the right things and a group of Wraith who are doing the wrong things.

T'saria
January 30th, 2006, 10:39 AM
That's my argument, but I have a different conclusion. You're assuming that humans aren't bad/evil. I think we are, therefore the Wraith are too. What we get in Atlantis is a group of humans who are, for the most part, doing the right things and a group of Wraith who are doing the wrong things.

Precisely!!! We are only shown one side of the story!
I do assume humans are evil...I do admit I am not
always clear in my rambling! :o

spg_1983
January 30th, 2006, 11:02 AM
Of course they are not evil. As has been said numerous times, it is no different than humans eating the flesh of animals to survive. Actually it is even less evil because the wraith do not have a choice BUT to suck human life force, man has long since reached the point where eating the flesh of animals is not neccesary. Vegetarianism and veganism are established healthy diets. We have protien and other vitamin supplements available to recieve the neccesary nutrients that we get from eating meat. There is no actual need for modern humans to eat the meat of animals, we do it because we enjoy the taste. Is voluntarily choosing to kill an animal to eat it when there are alternative foods based solely on a preference for taste more evil than a wraith killing a human to eat because he has no choice but to eat human? If the wraith could suck energy from other species but continued to do so from humans simply out of taste preference or sadism then that would be evil but that is not the case. Because of the link between humans and wraith, it is human energy that they must eat, they can not eat anything else.

As for the question of hunting Ronan for sport. Do humans not still hunt wild game for sport? Are modern human hunters evil? They do not need to hunt deer and other game for sustenance but do so for sport. Is that evil? (And Im talking about modern hunters, not tribal people that need to hunt for the survival of their village and people, or controlled hunts to control populations do to the loss of natural predators due to human expansion.)

Yes they cut into him when he was concious to implant the tracker. But was that evil? Is a fisherman evil for impaling a live worm or fish on a hook evil for doing so when there are artificial lures available?

Yes they have been shown taking pleasure in sucking the life out of humans. But is that evil? Who hasn't said "MMMMM" while enjoying a nice steak dinner, or thouroughly enjoyed a home cooked chicken dinner? Are we evil for enjoying our food? Are they?

They wiped out Teyla's village after they met resistance culling her people. Can resistance among their "herds" not be seen as a disease? Have not humans wiped out entire herds of hundreds of heads of cattle because of a few cases of Mad Cow disease being found? How many thousands or millions of chickens at this point have been slaughtered due to Bird Flu contamination? It is neccesary to eliminate the entire stock when a communicable disease is found lest it spread to other herds or flocks and threaten the entire worlds stocks of food. How is that any different than wiping out a population that poses a signifigant threat of resistance? If that resistance should spread to other planets the entire human stock in Pegasus could be threatened.

Experimentation on Teylas ancestors. Is it anydifferent then us selectively breeding and using chemicals to modify our animals to be larger and fatter to provided more meat? Chaining baby calves so that they can not walk around to create better Veal?

So really before one can answer the question "Are the Wraith evil?" you must first ask the question "Are humans evil?". Only then can one properly define and answer the question at hand.

adk06
January 30th, 2006, 02:01 PM
finally people who agree :) I made all these points in my earlier posts and no one listened

NakedJehutyV2
January 30th, 2006, 09:13 PM
humans are equally evil or worse

mrX225
January 30th, 2006, 11:37 PM
humans r noway near as evil as the wraith
because the wraith dont just feed on humans they destroy any humans who get to advanced and they also tryed to destroy the ancients which sort have created them

Ouroboros
January 30th, 2006, 11:57 PM
Here's another thing.

Consider every horrible atrocity you ever read about, every act of barberism, every historical incident of masses of sentient human life being wasted often times for little or no reason. Consider the serial killers, the child rapists the war criminals. Now consider which species perpetrated all of that, and against it's own kind no less.

Oh but the Wraith cut Ronon a little bit, their species must be way more evil right.

FallenAngelII
January 31st, 2006, 12:07 AM
humans r noway near as evil as the wraith
because the wraith dont just feed on humans they destroy any humans who get to advanced and they also tryed to destroy the ancients which sort have created them

So if the lions of the world assembled and started doing suicide bombings on humans or attacking humans as an act of war... or fishes, pigs, cows and other animals we eat did it, we should just stand by idly and not do anything?

If a dog attacks someone, it's most likely going to be put down, even if the injuries aren't severe. Because it just attacked a human.

If a herd of cows rallied to kill us, we'd shoot them down with machine guns and burn their remains.

iLemon
January 31st, 2006, 03:58 AM
First, Look at Ronon, they couldn't feed on him. So therefore they captured him & subjected him to experiments. All while he was fully aware & awake of what was happening to him. Then he was hunted for many years. Everytime he stopped long enough, they came & wiped out whoever was helping him.

Humans use animals for sport like the Wraith use humans for sport. We eat animals, the Wraith eat humans. We treat animals like crap, the Wraith treat humans like crap. I think a better arguement would be what makes us better than the Wraith?

Wraith_Hunter
January 31st, 2006, 07:30 AM
OK, where DO you get these facts from?

Funny with you being from a tiny little country that hasn't even aired past S2 of SG-1 yet. Then I'd like to ask you the exact same thing! Especially when you post things like this in the 'Allies' Episode discussion thread.

Direct Quote from you:The Daedalus is getting destroyed in next week's episode (or the week after that) and we'll get a new battlefield (same class).

Really is Daedalus getting destroyed next week in SG-1. Funny, if you think that SG-1's timeline is behind that of Atlantis, yet we know it makes it to the end of Atlantis S2 okay. Then they'll get a new battlefield, I mean WTF!!! It's Battlecruiser & it's PROMETHEUS that gets it, which IS NOT the same class as the new ship that will be seen in 'Off the grid', which is the Odyssey.

Since you've only joined in Dec, then I don't see how the heck that you could have gone through all the posts that wer eposted previously. If you had, then you'd have known exactly where I get it from. Here's a hint for you, go into the Martin Gero thread that was closed down long before you had even thought of registering. Then you may find out what exactly stuff like the Blue Beam does to the planets that have been culled etc.

Maybe then & only then when your not suffering from 'Foot IN mouth' syndrome any longer, will you actually see that people may know things that you don't. Especially since if you wouldn't be using illegal means to even see any episodes of Stargate, then you wouldn't even be past S2. Which I hate to break it to you, but do what other people do & BUY the DVD boxsets.

T'saria
January 31st, 2006, 07:42 AM
Sometimes I think it is hard for humans to
get away from human-centrism. Which is the
attitude that anything that threatens us we
have a right to kill. A good example is what
they are doing to the alligators in florida.
can't remember the specific place, sorry.
But one woman died because she contracted
a water born disease that gators carried,
or something like that. so what did the community
decide. "da geez...let's just start shootin all
the gators." to date they have killed almost 300
and all because one person died! and here's the
real kicker, that person wanted to protect the
wildlife. that makes it all the more precious!

getting back to where I started...human-centrism.
we just think it's all about us! very sad.
:(

and I also think it's a unique notion for most people
to be thought of as food.

vaberella
January 31st, 2006, 07:53 AM
On the surface, the Wraith are life sucking aliens, but aren't they just doing what they need to survive, I mean is it really any different then Humans killing animals because we need the food. We don't need the food, we could live on vegtables.

I mean say we didn't have our technology and they didn't have theres, it would be Wraith vs Human, the wraith would win there stronger,Survival of the fittest?


Yup check out SGA's 'Instinct' you get a perfect example of that!
VB

T'saria
January 31st, 2006, 07:56 AM
Yup check out SGA's 'Instinct' you get a perfect example of that!
VB

oh that is a great episode. I love it when Beckett is standing
in the woods and in the background you hear Ellia scream.
His eyes just slowly scan the sky like "well, now we're in trouble!:
that Beckett, he's great.

vaberella
January 31st, 2006, 08:11 AM
For sure..I completely agree..but it just shows you that the Wraith are more human than previously given credit for, and that they can be taught..it's the hunger that over powers them the most..and causes the animalistic part to come through...that and their abilities..like super strength and telekenises.

FallenAngelII
January 31st, 2006, 09:12 AM
Funny with you being from a tiny little country that hasn't even aired past S2 of SG-1 yet. Then I'd like to ask you the exact same thing! Especially when you post things like this in the 'Allies' Episode discussion thread.

Direct Quote from you:The Daedalus is getting destroyed in next week's episode (or the week after that) and we'll get a new battlefield (same class).

Really is Daedalus getting destroyed next week in SG-1. Funny, if you think that SG-1's timeline is behind that of Atlantis, yet we know it makes it to the end of Atlantis S2 okay. Then they'll get a new battlefield, I mean WTF!!! It's Battlecruiser & it's PROMETHEUS that gets it, which IS NOT the same class as the new ship that will be seen in 'Off the grid', which is the Odyssey.

Since you've only joined in Dec, then I don't see how the heck that you could have gone through all the posts that wer eposted previously. If you had, then you'd have known exactly where I get it from. Here's a hint for you, go into the Martin Gero thread that was closed down long before you had even thought of registering. Then you may find out what exactly stuff like the Blue Beam does to the planets that have been culled etc.

Maybe then & only then when your not suffering from 'Foot IN mouth' syndrome any longer, will you actually see that people may know things that you don't. Especially since if you wouldn't be using illegal means to even see any episodes of Stargate, then you wouldn't even be past S2. Which I hate to break it to you, but do what other people do & BUY the DVD boxsets.

Yes, make fun of my home country. I care so much.

I meant that the Promtheus was getting destroyed next week or the week after that. People have been saying it in the spoilery threads for a while. And wham! The Odyssey (the battleSHIP) arrives. And I'm not saying it's the same class as the Deaddy/Prommie. It's the spoiling people. I'm sorry if I don't work as an assistant to any of the writers and know the secrets to the universe. But people have been walking around weeks saying the Prommie will get destroyed and a new battleship of the same class will arrive at the scene. Also, what the heck does my spoilers about the Prommie have to do with this discussion?

I'm sure you've never mispelled stuff in the middle of the night when you haven't slept for the past 27 hours. Nor can you ever have received faulty information and passed it on thinking it were true because a 10 to 20 people were walking around saying the same thing. Because you are so perfect.

Besides, only people who are truly desperate to make their opponents look bad or lack good arguments and debating skills pull out crap that has nothing to do with the current discussion.

I was talking about the the fact that you claim they destroy civilizations just because they can't feed on them. Well, that could be the reason behind the destruction of Sateda, but that wasn't delved into.

About the blue beam, I asked curteously "In what episode did this happen" so I could check it out.

As for DVD boxsets, yes, I DO buy them. But I refuse to buy the sub-par US versions because they use less discs (5 instead of 6, which means WORSE QUALITY), incredibly crappy boxart and every single box is missing extra material later released in the UK versions. And the UK version of SGA season 1 isn't out yet.

T'saria
January 31st, 2006, 09:23 AM
As for DVD boxsets, yes, I DO buy them. But I refuse to buy the sub-par US versions because they use less discs (5 instead of 6, which means WORSE QUALITY), incredibly crappy boxart and every single box is missing extra material later released in the UK versions. And the UK version of SGA season 1 isn't out yet.

Boo hoo..you can say that again. our discs are of lesser quality.
in fact the first release of SGA season 1 the threads were
bad and people had to return them. so...I'd wait too. In fact, I'd
get the UK version if it made sense!
:(

FallenAngelII
January 31st, 2006, 09:32 AM
I read people complaining about the US edition of SGAtlantis Season 1 not having chapters o_O O_o.

Anyway, I'm all for Americans to buy the UK versions. Especially if they've just begun buying the boxsets and are buying "older" seasons (seasons 1-7 have been released in the UK, season 8 and season 1 of SGA are getting released soon).

They cost approximately the same if you buy them from http://www.amazon.co.uk instead of http://www.amazon.com, anyway

Plus, you get the funny dubs. French, German and Italian if I recall correctly.

T'saria
January 31st, 2006, 09:36 AM
I read people complaining about the US edition of SGAtlantis Season 1 not having chapters o_O O_o.

Anyway, I'm all for Americans to buy the UK versions. Especially if they've just begun buying the boxsets and are buying "older" seasons (seasons 1-7 have been released in the UK, season 8 and season 1 of SGA are getting released soon).

They cost approximately the same if you buy them from http://www.amazon.co.uk instead of http://www.amazon.com, anyway

Plus, you get the funny dubs. French, German and Italian if I recall correctly.

Bless your soul! But i suppose I have to pay some
goofy large shipping fee or something. oh well...it's worth
it. I have SGA season 1 and haven't watched it yet
to see if my set is OK. I just got it in the beginning of
January, so I have my fingers crossed.
:o

FallenAngelII
January 31st, 2006, 09:53 AM
I just tested how much it would cost to have www.amazon.com ship me season 8 of SG-1. Approximately 7 dollars using the cheapest option. I doubt shipping from the UK will be much more expensive :D.

Go Amazon!

The Signal
January 31st, 2006, 10:01 AM
On the surface, the Wraith are life sucking aliens, but aren't they just doing what they need to survive.

Good point, from here on the Wraith are not evil IMO! :P Okay wso I have been thinking it for a while, but i felt like being a little dramatic.

Anyway *puts the 5th cup of coffee of the day down* at the end of the day, you gotta do what you gotta do, they need to kill something, and humans seem to be their best source, its not pretty but there you go. If you compare them to the Goa'uld for instance, you can see that they dont wipe out entire planets, erm usually dex's planet might have had it coming they dont enslave people, and they only do what they need to, unlike the Goa'uld, who can live without a host in the right conditions. the only real thing that makes them sligtly evil IMO is the whole hunt idea (Runner) but then, you gotta keep fit:P

So remember everyone, Wraith just wanna be loved

T'saria
January 31st, 2006, 10:07 AM
Good point, from here on the Wraith are not evil IMO! :P Okay wso I have been thinking it for a while, but i felt like being a little dramatic.

Anyway *puts the 5th cup of coffee of the day down* at the end of the day, you gotta do what you gotta do, they need to kill something, and humans seem to be their best source, its not pretty but there you go. If you compare them to the Goa'uld for instance, you can see that they dont wipe out entire planets, erm usually dex's planet might have had it coming they dont enslave people, and they only do what they need to, unlike the Goa'uld, who can live without a host in the right conditions. the only real thing that makes them sligtly evil IMO is the whole hunt idea (Runner) but then, you gotta keep fit:P

So remember everyone, Wraith just wanna be loved

oh good point! wraith just wanna eat, the Goa'uld wanted to
control, like our friends the Orieda potatoes. but the wraith want none
of that.

nothin' but luv for ya wraith! nothin' but luv!
:P

jenks
January 31st, 2006, 10:24 AM
The act of feeding on a human to stay alive is not evil, but the Wraith seem to take pleasure in human suffering and that is.

T'saria
January 31st, 2006, 10:25 AM
The act of feeding on a human to stay alive is not evil, but the Wraith seem to take pleasure in human suffering and that is.

no arguements from me on that point. and I am sure
you will find others here agree.

adk06
January 31st, 2006, 11:02 AM
A wraith needs humans to survive but is sickened by the thought of the pain they inflict on there prey, then how could they survive. It doesn't make them evil.
It's just part of Wraith nature
I guess it's more if you do the wrong thing for the right reasons if it still wrong?
where all looking at this from the tau'ri point of view

FallenAngelII
January 31st, 2006, 11:09 AM
We don't really know that they take true pleasure from hurting people. They take pleasure from feeding yes. "Mmm... what a delicious potato chip" or something. SOME might be sadistic, but not all are.

spg_1983
January 31st, 2006, 11:35 AM
The act of feeding on a human to stay alive is not evil, but the Wraith seem to take pleasure in human suffering and that is.
You've never said "Mmmmmmm" over a good steak dinner? Its the exact same thing.

T'saria
January 31st, 2006, 11:52 AM
We don't really know that they take true pleasure from hurting people. They take pleasure from feeding yes. "Mmm... what a delicious potato chip" or something. SOME might be sadistic, but not all are.

I was thinking more along the lines of chocolate! yeah, chocolate!
i take real pleasure in taking a big bite out of it!

jenks
January 31st, 2006, 11:56 AM
You've never said "Mmmmmmm" over a good steak dinner? Its the exact same thing.

No it's not, just because I enjoy a steak doesn't mean I'd enjoy killing a cow...

spg_1983
January 31st, 2006, 12:11 PM
No it's not, just because I enjoy a steak doesn't mean I'd enjoy killing a cow...
You took pleasure in partaking of the cows flesh. In order to eat the cow it had to be killed. Therefore you took pleasure in the cows death. Actually for a human it is even more evil. You do not have to eat a steak and have a cow be killed for it. There are plenty of non-meat alternatives. A wraith has no choice but to suck the life out of a living human, face-to-face.

jenks
January 31st, 2006, 12:21 PM
You took pleasure in partaking of the cows flesh. In order to eat the cow it had to be killed. Therefore you took pleasure in the cows death. Actually for a human it is even more evil. You do not have to eat a steak and have a cow be killed for it. There are plenty of non-meat alternatives.

That has to be some of the worst logic ever, and completly untrue.


A wraith has no choice but to suck the life out of a living human, face-to-face.

We don't know that for sure, just because the wraith refused other animals doesn't mean he couldn't feed on them...

spg_1983
January 31st, 2006, 12:41 PM
That has to be some of the worst logic ever, and completly untrue.
Oh really? You want to explain how? You enjoy a steak. In order for you to enjoy a steak a cow must be killed. Therefore you take pleasure in the killing of a cow. If A=B and B=C, then A=C. You just don;t want to admit that you take pleasure in the death of an animal so that you can be morally superior to the Wraith. Unless you are a vegetarian, you are eviler than any wraith because we CHOOSE to eat meat, they have no choice.




We don't know that for sure, just because the wraith refused other animals doesn't mean he couldn't feed on them...The episode when we met the Wraith kid Becket determined that it is human life force that they need because of the genetic relation between human and Wraith. They can not eat life force from anything else.

iLemon
January 31st, 2006, 12:42 PM
The act of feeding on a human to stay alive is not evil, but the Wraith seem to take pleasure in human suffering and that is.
If the Wraith felt pity over the death of every human they suck the life out of dont you think that would drive them insane? They had to lose their human emotions to ensure their survival. It's the same with humans, the majority of us dont try to understand the animal emotions so we dont feel guilty for eating them.


We don't know that for sure, just because the wraith refused other animals doesn't mean he couldn't feed on them...
They feed on humans because we're the most compatible species. I'm not sure if they can feed on animals, I'm sure Beckett's said something about this in S1 but I cant remember what. If they could feed on animals then I doubt they'd have enough life force for it to last very long, its like humans choosing between a carrot stick and a 3 course meal for dinner, I dunno about you but I would prefer the 3 course meal.

Lightsabre
January 31st, 2006, 12:48 PM
Oh really? You want to explain how? You enjoy a steak. In order for you to enjoy a steak a cow must be killed. Therefore you take pleasure in the killing of a cow. If A=B and B=C, then A=C. You just don;t want to admit that you take pleasure in the death of an animal so that you can be morally superior to the Wraith. Unless you are a vegetarian, you are eviler than any wraith because we CHOOSE to eat meat, they have no choice.

No, you enjoyed EATING a cow.
If you went out, found a cow, bashed it's head in and hung it up all the while enjoying it, then you enjoyed KILLING a cow.
The difference is that we don't or rather most of us don't, play cruel games with animals, like the Wraith did in Runner.




The episode when we met the Wraith kid Becket determined that it is human life force that they need because of the genetic relation between human and Wraith. They can not eat life force from anything else.
Which means humanity is in a war for survival.

T'saria
January 31st, 2006, 12:48 PM
If the Wraith felt pity over the death of every human they suck the life out of dont you think that would drive them insane? They had to lose their human emotions to ensure their survival. It's the same with humans, the majority of us dont try to understand the animal emotions so we dont feel guilty for eating them.


exactly! look what happened to Ellia. She had a total hate
of herself all because she needed to eat. she didn't want
to hurt her "father" so she lied about hooking up with the male, etc.
what alternative did she have? she loved her father, but
yet had to eat people like him.

and look where the hate lead her..to take Beckett's untested
retro-virus. it was such a sad episode.:(

iLemon
January 31st, 2006, 12:51 PM
Oh really? You want to explain how? You enjoy a steak. In order for you to enjoy a steak a cow must be killed. Therefore you take pleasure in the killing of a cow. If A=B and B=C, then A=C. You just don;t want to admit that you take pleasure in the death of an animal so that you can be morally superior to the Wraith. Unless you are a vegetarian, you are eviler than any wraith because we CHOOSE to eat meat, they have no choice.
Actually I have to agree with jenks on this one, we didn't see the cows death, all we see is the steak so we can enjoy the steak without getting miserable thinking about dead cows while we eat.
Maybe if we killed the cow ourselves or watched the cow getting killed and turned into food then we might be 'evil' for eating it, but like I said in my previous post we can just avoid thinking about animals feelings as most of us think of them as basic life forms without any feelings anyway.

T'saria
January 31st, 2006, 12:55 PM
Actually I have to agree with jenks on this one, we didn't see the cows death, all we see is the steak so we can enjoy the steak without getting miserable thinking about dead cows while we eat.
Maybe if we killed the cow ourselves or watched the cow getting killed and turned into food then we might be 'evil' for eating it, but like I said in my previous post we can just avoid thinking about animals feelings as most of us think of them as basic life forms without any feelings anyway.


sorry...everytime I eat a piece of meat that is all I think about.
even from very young. i still remember when I was 7 and saw
the veins in chicken. i almost puked! i couldn't eat it ever again!

spg_1983
January 31st, 2006, 12:59 PM
No, you enjoyed EATING a cow.
If you went out, found a cow, bashed it's head in and hung it up all the while enjoying it, then you enjoyed KILLING a cow.
The difference is that we don't or rather most of us don't, play cruel games with animals, like the Wraith did in Runner.
The cow HAD to be killed for you to eat and enjoy it. You can not change that fact. The acto fo killing the cow ends with you enjoying that steak. You can try to rationalize it however you want, but you are just trying to fool yourself. That cow was slaughtered with the express purpose of you cnsuming its flesh. The cow was bred, raised, treated with chemicals to make it bigger and tastier, led into a slaughter house, chained to a wall, shot in the head with a device not unlike a nail gun, and was started to be cut up before it had even stopped twitching and in many instances is still alive and mooing as it is cut in half. I have been to slaughter houses, I have seen it with my own two eyes.

How was what they did to Ronon any crueler than what we do with deer or other game?

spg_1983
January 31st, 2006, 01:01 PM
Actually I have to agree with jenks on this one, we didn't see the cows death, all we see is the steak so we can enjoy the steak without getting miserable thinking about dead cows while we eat.
Maybe if we killed the cow ourselves or watched the cow getting killed and turned into food then we might be 'evil' for eating it, but like I said in my previous post we can just avoid thinking about animals feelings as most of us think of them as basic life forms without any feelings anyway.
So because we don't see the killing we are exhemt? Because we are cold and amoral and don't think about the food we are eating we arent evil?

iLemon
January 31st, 2006, 01:03 PM
sorry...everytime I eat a piece of meat that is all I think about.
even from very young. i still remember when I was 7 and saw
the veins in chicken. i almost puked! i couldn't eat it ever again!
That statement was aimed at people who can eat meat without thinking about that stuff, sorry if that was unclear.

T'saria
January 31st, 2006, 01:04 PM
T The cow was bred, raised, treated with chemicals to make it bigger and tastier, led into a slaughter house, chained to a wall, shot in the head with a device not unlike a nail gun, and was started to be cut up before it had even stopped twitching and in many instances is still alive and mooing as it is cut in half. I have been to slaughter houses, I have seen it with my own two eyes.


coming from a dairy state, I know all about this. it is the
nastiest thing ever. again, it just makes me sick. i have seen it
as well and they are images I can't ever get out of my mind.

T'saria
January 31st, 2006, 01:06 PM
That statement was aimed at people who can eat meat without thinking about that stuff, sorry if that was unclear.

oh..never took your statement personally..sorry if I was unclear.
:o

iLemon
January 31st, 2006, 01:14 PM
So because we don't see the killing we are exhemt? Because we are cold and amoral and don't think about the food we are eating we arent evil?
I didn't say we're not evil, I'm just saying that its hard to feel guilty for animals if we dont see whats done to them from the day they're born to the day they're lying dead on our plates. We cant feel emotions for an animal that we've never met, some might, I can sympathise but it doesn't put me off from eating them, although having this discussion might just :o I've never really thought about it before and I'm sure a lot of people dont think about it either, its easier to eat it that way. The same with the Wraith, they dont think about what damage they do to the friends/family of the people they wraith because its easier that way.

iLemon
January 31st, 2006, 01:28 PM
The cow HAD to be killed for you to eat and enjoy it. You can not change that fact. The acto fo killing the cow ends with you enjoying that steak. You can try to rationalize it however you want, but you are just trying to fool yourself. That cow was slaughtered with the express purpose of you cnsuming its flesh. The cow was bred, raised, treated with chemicals to make it bigger and tastier, led into a slaughter house, chained to a wall, shot in the head with a device not unlike a nail gun, and was started to be cut up before it had even stopped twitching and in many instances is still alive and mooing as it is cut in half. I have been to slaughter houses, I have seen it with my own two eyes.

Not everyone has seen it so they cant exactly picture that while they eat meat, if they had seen that then it would be a different story.

spg_1983
January 31st, 2006, 04:15 PM
Not everyone has seen it so they cant exactly picture that while they eat meat, if they had seen that then it would be a different story.
It doesn't matter if they have seen it and know the step by step process as some do. Everyone knows by a certain agae that in order for that piece of flesh to be sitting on their plate the animal had to die. You don't just cut pieces of an animal and keep it alive.

Lightsabre
January 31st, 2006, 04:24 PM
It doesn't matter if they have seen it and know the step by step process as some do. Everyone knows by a certain agae that in order for that piece of flesh to be sitting on their plate the animal had to die. You don't just cut pieces of an animal and keep it alive.
Yes, and everytime you eat corn,or peas or carrots, you've killed them too.
You pull a plant from the ground and it dies.
I fail to see your point. Should we not eat?
Are we evil becuase we eat?
Having a piece of steak on your plate and enjoying it's taste doesn't make you like the wriath.
The wriath appear to enjoy sucking the life from a person, and they seem to like the person's fear and helplesness. that is evil.
The wraith are not evil because they suck the life from humans, they are evil because they do evil things, like create runners.

NakedJehutyV2
January 31st, 2006, 04:30 PM
You took pleasure in partaking of the cows flesh. In order to eat the cow it had to be killed. Therefore you took pleasure in the cows death. Actually for a human it is even more evil. You do not have to eat a steak and have a cow be killed for it. There are plenty of non-meat alternatives. A wraith has no choice but to suck the life out of a living human, face-to-face.


i hate ya but i completely agree

NakedJehutyV2
January 31st, 2006, 04:31 PM
we are evil

bullfights anyone?

Lightsabre
January 31st, 2006, 04:32 PM
we are evil

bullfights anyone?
When was the last time you had a chat with a bull.
Animals cannot be said to have human intelligence.

NakedJehutyV2
January 31st, 2006, 05:24 PM
ignorance isn't an excuse. they have intelligence just humans never see it

any neither do humans till they're taught.


humans are evil by nature. on earth we're the only species that kills for nothing

adk06
January 31st, 2006, 05:30 PM
it's not it all comes down to which life is more valuable, human or wraith?

NakedJehutyV2
January 31st, 2006, 05:31 PM
neither


anyway ya'll label wraith evil based on the few that we've seen. if ya gonna do that then humans (anyway there are more evil/good numbers in humans by comparison) are worse.

Lightsabre
January 31st, 2006, 05:33 PM
ignorance isn't an excuse. they have intelligence just humans never see it
Ah well, we're all killers then.
Good to know.

NakedJehutyV2
January 31st, 2006, 05:49 PM
yes

spg_1983
January 31st, 2006, 06:22 PM
Yes, and everytime you eat corn,or peas or carrots, you've killed them too.
You pull a plant from the ground and it dies.
I fail to see your point. Should we not eat?
Are we evil becuase we eat?
Having a piece of steak on your plate and enjoying it's taste doesn't make you like the wriath.
The wriath appear to enjoy sucking the life from a person, and they seem to like the person's fear and helplesness. that is evil.
The wraith are not evil because they suck the life from humans, they are evil because they do evil things, like create runners.
If the fear and helplessness enhances the "flavor" as has been suggested then is that evil? How is creating a runner evil? Are deer hunters evil?

spg_1983
January 31st, 2006, 06:23 PM
When was the last time you had a chat with a bull.
Animals cannot be said to have human intelligence.
They still have intelligence. Humans can't be said to have Wraith intelligence, does that make them superior?

Lightsabre
January 31st, 2006, 06:25 PM
If the fear and helplessness enhances the "flavor" as has been suggested then is that evil? How is creating a runner evil? Are deer hunters evil?
Some of them, in the way they hunt, yes, I think they are.

Lightsabre
January 31st, 2006, 06:28 PM
They still have intelligence. Humans can't be said to have Wraith intelligence, does that make them superior?
Human and wraith intelligence is on par. The wraith are ahead in terms of knowledge, but humans have the capacity to get to that level.
That is the difference.
We do not say that a cow that kills a farmer is evil.
We do not say that farmer who kills a cow is evil.
we say a man who kills a man is evil.
It is sheer hypocrisy to say if a human kills a human they are evil, but if a wraith kills a human, they are not.

spg_1983
January 31st, 2006, 06:31 PM
Human and wraith intelligence is on par. The wraith are ahead in terms of knowledge, but humans have the capacity to get to that level.
That is the difference.
We do not say that a cow that kills a farmer is evil.
We do not say that farmer who kills a cow is evil.
we say a man who kills a man is evil.
It is sheer hypocrisy to say if a human kills a human they are evil, but if a wraith kills a human, they are not.
We are cows to the wraith. If it is not evil for farmer to kill a cow it can not be said to be evil for a wraith to kill a human. Saying it is just just futle attempts at rationalization.

Lightsabre
January 31st, 2006, 06:33 PM
We are cows to the wraith. If it is not evil for farmer to kill a cow it can not be said to be evil for a wraith to kill a human. Saying it is just just futle attempts at rationalization.
I've said it before, the difference is in the relative intelligence levels of human, wraith and cows.
You cannot or will not grasp it, so the argument is futile.

spg_1983
January 31st, 2006, 06:53 PM
I've said it before, the difference is in the relative intelligence levels of human, wraith and cows.
You cannot or will not grasp it, so the argument is futile.
There is a difference because we say there is. We say cows are less intelligent then us and are deserving of being eaten, the wraith say the same thing about us. I do grasp what you are saying but you are wrong.

jenks
January 31st, 2006, 07:16 PM
Oh really? You want to explain how? You enjoy a steak. In order for you to enjoy a steak a cow must be killed. Therefore you take pleasure in the killing of a cow. If A=B and B=C, then A=C. You just don;t want to admit that you take pleasure in the death of an animal so that you can be morally superior to the Wraith. Unless you are a vegetarian, you are eviler than any wraith because we CHOOSE to eat meat, they have no choice.



First of all A doesn't equal B, so lets just forget that.

I enjoy steak, I wouldn't enjoy killing a cow or even witnessing it being killed. Lets turn it around, goin by your logic:

If you **** your girlfriend, you also take pleasure from her parents ****ing, becasue without that she would never have been born for you to ****...

spg_1983
January 31st, 2006, 07:30 PM
First of all A doesn't equal B, so lets just forget that.
How so? LOL you can't just decide that something should be ignored because it is counter to your position, if you are going to debate at least have some kind of idea of how to do so.



If you **** your girlfriend, you also take pleasure from her parents ****ing, becasue without that she would never have been born for you to ****...
Ignoring the unneccasary crudity of your analogy, are you trying to say I take pleasure out of my girlfriends parents engaging in everyday sexual activities, or the specific time that resulted in her birth? Because you would be right if you are talking about the specific time that resulted in her birth.

jenks
January 31st, 2006, 07:35 PM
To your first point: 'A' is too specific to equal anything else but 'A'

and to your second: ewww

Anyway, my point is, the vast majority of people who eat meat, don't even think about the death of the animal they're eating let alone take pleasure in it. Taking pleasure form eating the animal is not the same as taking pleasure from it's death, they're two different things.

spg_1983
January 31st, 2006, 07:38 PM
To your first point: 'A' is too specific to equal anything else but 'A'

and to your second: ewww

Anyway, my point is, the vast majority of people who eat meat, don't even think about the death of the animal they're eating let alone take pleasure in it. Taking pleasure form eating the animal is not the same as taking pleasure from it's death, they're two different things.
LOL so you are saying we are exhemt because we are ignorant? The Wraith are evil because they accept their nature and face it eyes open?

What "ewww"? Im not partaking in the act, but I am glad that they did because it has given me the chance to meet and fall in love with their daughter.

LORD MONK
January 31st, 2006, 07:42 PM
The buttom line is we eat meat to survive. Meat is Good. We also pick our meat. We our not going to eat are dog, I would starve to death before that happens. We also have laws and regulations about how our food is culled. One of them being it has to be painless and quick.
What I am getting at is the Wraith want to and get a kick out of our life being sucked out right before their eyes. They can go eat a cow. They can go eat a Lion, they think they are kings of the Jungle, that should be some good eatin'.
We also let our cows live happy lives like the cows from California. Now those are some happy cows.

jenks
January 31st, 2006, 07:47 PM
LOL so you are saying we are exhemt because we are ignorant? The Wraith are evil because they accept their nature and face it eyes open?

What "ewww"? Im not partaking in the act, but I am glad that they did because it has given me the chance to meet and fall in love with their daughter.

You know the difference between being glad about something and enjoying it, right?

Like you could be glad you're having an operation to save your life etc, but you wouldn't necissarily enjoy it... It's the same with eating meat, enjoying the outcome is not the same as enjoying the means.

LORD MONK
January 31st, 2006, 07:51 PM
What "ewww"? Im not partaking in the act, but I am glad that they did because it has given me the chance to meet and fall in love with their daughter.
I think what you are trying to say is that you are thankful for what transpired after the fact. Being fertilazation and not the act itself.

Ouroboros
January 31st, 2006, 09:25 PM
Just a Minor spoiler from allies. In that episode a Wraith says that a big part of the reason why Wraith are so cruel to humans is that their society simply doesn't see humans the way they see each other/other Wraith.

To break it down the average Wraith doesn't think or know that a human can feel, fear, suffer the same way another Wraith can. A human is just something that exists to be caught and eaten. This is exactly the same way we look at cows and other food animals.

The Wraith that says it even seems to be feeling bad about this now that he's finally had his eyes opened to the fact that humans and Wraith are more alike than different.

In regards to not killing the animal you eat that doesn't make you any better than someone who does. Killing things is unpleasent yet if you want to eat them it's necessary. Just because you can go "eww gross" like a wuss and pawn the hard (but necessary) part off on someone else doesn't give you the right to hold yourself up as morally superior to that guy that has to do the dirty work so you can have your Mac and fries.

What kind of busted notion is that. If I worked in the slaughter/ranching industry I'd be pretty damn insulted at the notion of some frumpy little dweeb in line at BK thinking he's better than me because I had to work to kill, skin and gut the cow that went into his wopper combo and he just has to enjoy it.

jenks
January 31st, 2006, 09:44 PM
Just a Minor spoiler from allies. In that episode a Wraith says that a big part of the reason why Wraith are so cruel to humans is that their society simply doesn't see humans the way they see each other/other Wraith.

To break it down the average Wraith doesn't think or know that a human can feel, fear, suffer the same way another Wraith can. A human is just something that exists to be caught and eaten. This is exactly the same way we look at cows and other food animals.

The Wraith that says it even seems to be feeling bad about this now that he's finally had his eyes opened to the fact that humans and Wraith are more alike than different.

In regards to not killing the animal you eat that doesn't make you any better than someone who does. Killing things is unpleasent yet if you want to eat them it's necessary. Just because you can go "eww gross" like a wuss and pawn the hard (but necessary) part off on someone else doesn't give you the right to hold yourself up as morally superior to that guy that has to do the dirty work so you can have your Mac and fries.

What kind of busted notion is that. If I worked in the slaughter/ranching industry I'd be pretty damn insulted at the notion of some frumpy little dweeb in line at BK thinking he's better than me because I had to work to kill, skin and gut the cow that went into his wopper combo and he just has to enjoy it.

I don't think anyone is doing that, spg_1983 just seems to think that because people enjoy eating meat, they also enjoy killing animals, which isn't true.

FallenAngelII
January 31st, 2006, 11:08 PM
In "Condemned" (I think that's the name of the episode, the one with the society that sacrificed their own prisoners to the Wraith), the Wraith that comes to the planet state that they can enjoy food other than humans, but that it doesn't give them sustenance.

Of course, he said this while eating a dead cow by ingesting it, but many assumed it was the writers' way of saying "No, they can't feed on anything else".

Also, do you think they'd have civil wars and have to limit their culling and go into hibernation that much if they could feed on anything other than humans and humanoid creatures? Why aren't their hive ships filled with livestock? Because they enjoy eating humans more?

Also, in "Instinct", you think Ellia would willingly feed on her father and innocent villagers even though it made her feel really guilty before trying to feed off of other things first?

Tell me, if you were starving and about to die unless you ate something, would you stick to eating only cow, even if it was really scarce?


The buttom line is we eat meat to survive. Meat is Good. We also pick our meat. We our not going to eat are dog, I would starve to death before that happens. We also have laws and regulations about how our food is culled. One of them being it has to be painless and quick.
What I am getting at is the Wraith want to and get a kick out of our life being sucked out right before their eyes. They can go eat a cow. They can go eat a Lion, they think they are kings of the Jungle, that should be some good eatin'.
We also let our cows live happy lives like the cows from California. Now those are some happy cows.

No, we eat meat because we like it. We don't NEED it to survive. The bottom line is that the Wraith NEED us. We don't NEED meat.

That's a matter of personal bias. Some culture eat dogs and cats. Why? Because they see nothing wrong with it. Because, really, what's so special about dogs and cats anyway that prevent us from eating them? Intelligence? No.

In India, they think it's sacrilege to eat cows. Certain religions worships animals that we eat.

What you are ASSUMING is that they get a kick out of it. WHEN did they EVER say or SHOW Wraiths getting kicks just seeing people suffer except maybe sadistic warrior Wraiths?

The Wraiths let people live happy lives as well. They live in freedom on their own planets, free to roam wherever they like. Then, when it's time for culling, they capture them and put them into "meat tanks". Only diff. is that the Wraith seem unable to feed off of dead people.

And Wraith are not evil by nature. Like Ouroboros said. In "Allies", Michael could not watch as his Queen fed off an enemy Wraith-turned-human. He also tried to reach out to Teyla, so there goes your stupid "Ouh, all Wraiths enjoy watching pain and suffering" theory.

Ouroboros
January 31st, 2006, 11:20 PM
Morally superior might have been a bit harsh but I was talking about this

First of all A doesn't equal B, so lets just forget that.

I enjoy steak, I wouldn't enjoy killing a cow or even witnessing it being killed. Lets turn it around, goin by your logic:

If you **** your girlfriend, you also take pleasure from her parents ****ing, becasue without that she would never have been born for you to ****...

Which you said. it sounded to me at the time like you were saying "I don't kill animals I just eat them" and trying to use that to claim that you're better than someone who did kill them. If that's not what you meant to say than I apologise.

I agree with SPG when he says

LOL so you are saying we are exhemt because we are ignorant? The Wraith are evil because they accept their nature and face it eyes open?

Just because they accept themsleves for what they are instead of trying to pussyfoot around the issue and boo hoo everytime they eat a human hardly means they're evil.

You wouldn't enjoy or take any pleasure in killing a cow because you, like most of us, have probably never had to kill something to survive by eating it.

If you were living a lifestyle where you had to hunt/kill animals for food on a regular basis you'd come to enjoy it just as much as the Wraith do from a pride/satisfaction standpoint. It's only natural.

Things like "feeling sorry for the cow" and all the Peta stuff are only made possible by a society of people that are so surrounded by abundance they'll never have to face the choice of killing something or starving themselves. They can afford to wonder about the moral implications of eating meat because the consequence of doing so isn't death by starvation.

One of my college professors originated from a poor region of Africa in his youth and he even touched on this in class once I remember. Over there the mere notion of the food animal having "feelings" let alone rights would be met with nothing short of uproarious laughter. They're just looked at as food because if the people don't eat them, THEY starve.

This is the same situation the Wraith are in in Pegasus. They don't have a society of plenty like we do in the west with food animals and food in general. Their situation is much more like the Africa situation. There's barely enough humans to go around as it is and what's there has to be carefully managed and looked after so that starvation doesn't occur. They simply don't have the option of sitting back and second guessing their sole means of subsistence because "hey, the animal might have feelings to, so maybe we should all starve ourselves to respect that".

Aarni
February 1st, 2006, 12:14 AM
First of all, I think it’s unfair to dub all of wraith evil, because of what they did to Ronan. To be fair we need to view the wraiths as individuals. Hunting and fishing are popular sport for us earthlings, too. In some parts of the world animals are skinned alive, so the adrenaline released by the horror of this event causes the fur to be tiny bit softer. And this is something many of us would view as evil. There are many other types of cruelty we inflict upon defenceless animals as well. Does this make all of mankind evil? Well, possibly, or perhaps not, but we definitely aren’t any better than the wraith.

We also need to bear in mind that the wraiths live in a constant war like state. As silly as it sounds, to understand their perspective, imagine cows as a lot smarter (in some cases even smarter than we humans) and armed. As indicated in Instinct it is not about preference why they feed upon us, whereas for us it is. Vegetarians around the world have proved that we can live normal healthy lives without the animal meat. If wraiths are evil, we humans by the previous logic are worse. And we, too, limit the numbers of other predators when their numbers grow too big, by hunting and killing them in large quantities.

And what is with the argument that by not knowing how the cow died it is somehow more acceptable? Does denial of evil make evil less evil?

NakedJehutyV2
February 1st, 2006, 01:06 AM
We are cows to the wraith. If it is not evil for farmer to kill a cow it can not be said to be evil for a wraith to kill a human. Saying it is just just futle attempts at rationalization.


keep owning him!!

iLemon
February 1st, 2006, 01:46 AM
And what is with the argument that by not knowing how the cow died it is somehow more acceptable? Does denial of evil make evil less evil?
No, it just makes you ignorant, but its the only way you can enjoy the meat. Plus a lot of people dont think about how the cow died, they just want to eat the meat. Same with Wraiths, they dont want to know about how others suffer because they've wraithed one of their close ones, they just want food for survival.
I know humans dont need meat for survival but being a vegetarian isn't easy especially when the meat option is usually cheaper and tastier. Have you seen the prices at McDonalds? I think it was about 50p for a bag of carrot sticks which only contains about 4/5 sticks! Blasphemous!! And its not easy resisting temptation either.

iLemon
February 1st, 2006, 01:49 AM
The wraith are not evil because they suck the life from humans, they are evil because they do evil things, like create runners.
And humans are evil because they hunt animal for sport, animals may just be a more basic life form than us but they still have emotions, and who are we to judge how basic their emotions are anyway? We have no idea about the way animals think and how intelligent they are, we just assume basing our facts on theory.

iLemon
February 1st, 2006, 01:51 AM
When was the last time you had a chat with a bull.
Animals cannot be said to have human intelligence.
Chat with a bull? That's like chatting with someone who speaks a foreign language, just because you dont understand the bull doesn't make it less intelligent than you and it deffinately doesn't make you more superior. They are basic life forms but that doesn't mean they are robots.

FallenAngelII
February 1st, 2006, 04:00 AM
No, it just makes you ignorant, but its the only way you can enjoy the meat. Plus a lot of people dont think about how the cow died, they just want to eat the meat. Same with Wraiths, they dont want to know about how others suffer because they've wraithed one of their close ones, they just want food for survival.
I know humans dont need meat for survival but being a vegetarian isn't easy especially when the meat option is usually cheaper and tastier. Have you seen the prices at McDonalds? I think it was about 50p for a bag of carrot sticks which only contains about 4/5 sticks! Blasphemous!! And its not easy resisting temptation either.

If you go out and buy fresh vegetables, mushrooms and whatnot, it'll be cheaper to be a vegetarian than to be a carnivore. Simply because there's more vegetables to go around because vegetables are easier, cheaper and faster to grow.

You cannot blame something's overpricedness and hard-to-come by by what the heck McDonald's serves!

And now to something not connected to the quoted post: As someone touched upon, skinning animals for their fur. Nobody needs fur nowadays. At least not real fur. There's fake fur that's even better than real fur. But stupid upper-class morons still prefer real fur because it's a status-symbol. Barbaric to some, everyday lifestyle to others. Is it barbaric to eat the brains of a monkey in India? Or is it any less barbaric to eat organs and intestines stuffed into a sheep's stomach (haggis) in Scotland?

At least the Wraiths simply wraith their victims. Sure, it hurts like Hell, but what are they supposed to do? Wait 'til the humans are about to die of old age and wraith them for 1 second to have them die?

Speaking of intelligent animals, we cannot understand dolphins. Doesn't mean they're just as smart or even smarter than us.

vaberella
February 1st, 2006, 04:18 AM
Human and wraith intelligence is on par. The wraith are ahead in terms of knowledge, but humans have the capacity to get to that level.
That is the difference.
We do not say that a cow that kills a farmer is evil.
We do not say that farmer who kills a cow is evil.
we say a man who kills a man is evil.
It is sheer hypocrisy to say if a human kills a human they are evil, but if a wraith kills a human, they are not.

Oh but remember Human/Ancient technology is far more advanced than Wraith...there are just more Wraith.

iLemon
February 1st, 2006, 06:35 AM
If you go out and buy fresh vegetables, mushrooms and whatnot, it'll be cheaper to be a vegetarian than to be a carnivore. Simply because there's more vegetables to go around because vegetables are easier, cheaper and faster to grow.
It's easier to just go buy a Big Mac from McDonalds than to waste half the afternoon cooking food. Also we cant all cook or we dont have the time to cook and some of us prefer meat over vegetables. I'm not saying that justifies our actions I'm just merely stating why people eat meat.


Speaking of intelligent animals, we cannot understand dolphins. Doesn't mean they're just as smart or even smarter than us.
Doesn't mean they're unintelligent either.

FallenAngelII
February 1st, 2006, 06:48 AM
It's easier to just go buy a Big Mac from McDonalds than to waste half the afternoon cooking food. Also we cant all cook or we dont have the time to cook and some of us prefer meat over vegetables. I'm not saying that justifies our actions I'm just merely stating why people eat meat.

Doesn't mean they're unintelligent either.

I'm saying it's evil to eat meat. I eat meat. But it's a stupid excuse to say "We're too lazy to cook, so we go to McDonald's, where it's hard to find a vegetarian alternative".

Spending 10-30 minutes cooking a simple meal is hardly wasting an entire afternoon. The youth of today needs to learn how to cook better. Seriously, most of my friends are helpless and I can easily do a meal with 3 different dishes within 15 minutes by simply multitasking.

Most people are fine with just 1 dish besides rice/potatoes/pasta, so that only takes 10-15 minutes WITHOUT multitasking. Not to mention nobody can afford 3 meals a day of takeout/McDonald's.

And you hit the nail on the head: preference, the word we've stressed all along. The Wraith do not have a preference for humans. They have a need for humans. So it's either wraith humans (and humanoids) or DIE. Humans can survive on vegetables and fruits alone. But we choose to be carnivores. Nothing wrong with it. But we can hardly blaming the Wraith for simply wanting to live when most of us choose to eat meat.

Also, I meant "Doesn't mean there's NOT just as smart or smarter than us" (as studies have shown).

iLemon
February 1st, 2006, 06:52 AM
I'm saying it's evil to eat meat. I eat meat. But it's a stupid excuse to say "We're too lazy to cook, so we go to McDonald's, where it's hard to find a vegetarian alternative".
It's the way people are, we're a very lazy race unfortunately, technology's spoilt us.

spg_1983
February 1st, 2006, 06:58 AM
I don't think anyone is doing that, spg_1983 just seems to think that because people enjoy eating meat, they also enjoy killing animals, which isn't true.
No no no, you are not understanding me at all the same as you have not been this whole debate. I am not saying you take pleasure in actually personally killing the animal. You take pleasure in the animals death by extension by choosing to eat it, there is a difference.

T'saria
February 1st, 2006, 07:02 AM
If you go out and buy fresh vegetables, mushrooms and whatnot, it'll be cheaper to be a vegetarian than to be a carnivore. Simply because there's more vegetables to go around because vegetables are easier, cheaper and faster to grow.


totally OT! Where do you live that it is cheaper to be a vegetarian?
As you may have guessed, I am a vegetarian - yet still a wraith
on this site. :o And it is very expensive to be a vegetarian.
but then again I do not grow my own. maybe i ought to get off
my lazy butt and do so!

sorry everyone that I am OT!

spg_1983
February 1st, 2006, 07:05 AM
The buttom line is we eat meat to survive. Meat is Good. We also pick our meat. We our not going to eat are dog, I would starve to death before that happens. We also have laws and regulations about how our food is culled. One of them being it has to be painless and quick.
What I am getting at is the Wraith want to and get a kick out of our life being sucked out right before their eyes. They can go eat a cow. They can go eat a Lion, they think they are kings of the Jungle, that should be some good eatin'.
We also let our cows live happy lives like the cows from California. Now those are some happy cows.
We do not require meat as a part of our diet anymore. Our society has evolved to the point where because of our understanding of nutrion vegitarianism is a perfectly viable and healthy alternative to a meat diet.

Many cultures DO eat dog. It is merely our western snobbery that looks down on it and thinks it is unacceptable.

No the laws do not say it has to be quick and painless. When they slaughter cows they knock it in the head with a device not unlike a nail gun. They do not wait for it to be completely dead. They start cutting it up immediately while it screams in pain. If you've never been to a slaughter house, everyone should go someday, it really puts the world in perspective.

T'saria
February 1st, 2006, 07:07 AM
Just a Minor spoiler from allies. In that episode a Wraith says that a big part of the reason why Wraith are so cruel to humans is that their society simply doesn't see humans the way they see each other/other Wraith.

To break it down the average Wraith doesn't think or know that a human can feel, fear, suffer the same way another Wraith can. A human is just something that exists to be caught and eaten. This is exactly the same way we look at cows and other food animals.


Very fascinating....I've said it before and I will say it again..
I can't wait to see this episode.

I wondered about this.

FallenAngelII
February 1st, 2006, 07:34 AM
Well, in Sweden, vegetables and fruits are definately cheaper than meat.

Anyway, about the blue light the Wraith leave behind, Mr. I-Know-Everything-You-Know-Nothing (Wraith Hunter), they left one of those behind in SGAtlantis 1x17 "Letters From Pegasus". Obviously, you yourself missed this occurance. Oh no, you're human!

Now, what exactly does the blue light do according to the writers? John never found that out.

T'saria
February 1st, 2006, 07:47 AM
Now, what exactly does the blue light do according to the writers? John never found that out.

this blue light thing is totally unknown about to me.
yes, I have many episodes to see. so I would like
to know about it as well.

the only blue light I am familiar with is the one at
K-mart! he he he :D

spg_1983
February 1st, 2006, 07:49 AM
Now, what exactly does the blue light do according to the writers? John never found that out.
I believe John or Teyla theorized that the blue light was a way of sucking life energy out of the planet itself to fuel the ships.

FallenAngelII
February 1st, 2006, 07:58 AM
Nothing of this was said in "Letters To Pegasus".

T'saria
February 1st, 2006, 08:43 AM
I believe John or Teyla theorized that the blue light was a way of sucking life energy out of the planet itself to fuel the ships.

wowsers! not a word I know. that would make for
an interesting EP. i would like to see that blue light
in action.

spg_1983
February 1st, 2006, 08:48 AM
Nothing of this was said in "Letters To Pegasus".
Yes it was, the exact line was something like: "Perhaps its some way of taking energy directly from the planet." I just dont remember who said it

LORD MONK
February 1st, 2006, 01:24 PM
In "Condemned" (I think that's the name of the episode, the one with the society that sacrificed their own prisoners to the Wraith), the Wraith that comes to the planet state that they can enjoy food other than humans, but that it doesn't give them sustenance.

Of course, he said this while eating a dead cow by ingesting it, but many assumed it was the writers' way of saying "No, they can't feed on anything else".

Also, do you think they'd have civil wars and have to limit their culling and go into hibernation that much if they could feed on anything other than humans and humanoid creatures? Why aren't their hive ships filled with livestock? Because they enjoy eating humans more?

Also, in "Instinct", you think Ellia would willingly feed on her father and innocent villagers even though it made her feel really guilty before trying to feed off of other things first?

Tell me, if you were starving and about to die unless you ate something, would you stick to eating only cow, even if it was really scarce?



No, we eat meat because we like it. We don't NEED it to survive. The bottom line is that the Wraith NEED us. We don't NEED meat.

That's a matter of personal bias. Some culture eat dogs and cats. Why? Because they see nothing wrong with it. Because, really, what's so special about dogs and cats anyway that prevent us from eating them? Intelligence? No.

In India, they think it's sacrilege to eat cows. Certain religions worships animals that we eat.

What you are ASSUMING is that they get a kick out of it. WHEN did they EVER say or SHOW Wraiths getting kicks just seeing people suffer except maybe sadistic warrior Wraiths?

The Wraiths let people live happy lives as well. They live in freedom on their own planets, free to roam wherever they like. Then, when it's time for culling, they capture them and put them into "meat tanks". Only diff. is that the Wraith seem unable to feed off of dead people.

And Wraith are not evil by nature. Like Ouroboros said. In "Allies", Michael could not watch as his Queen fed off an enemy Wraith-turned-human. He also tried to reach out to Teyla, so there goes your stupid "Ouh, all Wraiths enjoy watching pain and suffering" theory.
First of, I live in the US. So don't through stuff at me that I haven't seen yet. So what you are saying is the Wraith turned another Wraith into a human to eat. That is pure EVIL. I might hate my enemy, but I will not turn him into a peace of steak and have at it. And good for Michael, see their is a light at the end of the tunnel even if it is a train.
Maybe their are just different Wraith out their. Queen BAD Michael GOOD. They can eat other animals. They need the life force, everything living has a life force.
Yes we do need to eat meat for their isn't enugh land to plant all the food we need to sustain the population on Earth. We also use the animals for all kinds of other stuff besides just eating.

T'saria
February 1st, 2006, 01:28 PM
So what you are saying is the Wraith turned another Wraith into a human to eat. That is pure EVIL.

I don't think that is exactly how it happened. but don't quote
me. I'm at the mercy of Sci Fi channel just like you and
am way behind some on here. on the wraith threads there
have been some spoilers about the wraith queen that
make her out to be one nasty cookie. she really is merciless.

spg_1983
February 1st, 2006, 01:38 PM
So what you are saying is the Wraith turned another Wraith into a human to eat. That is pure EVIL. I might hate my enemy, but I will not turn him into a peace of steak and have at it.Why is it evil? As far as the queen was concerned they weren't a wraith anymore. It is only in modern culture that canabalism is unacceptable. Many cultures through out history have practiced canabalism in many different froms. Some readily considered enemies a perfectly acceptable alternative form of meat, some justeat specific parts of an enemies anatomy. It is only because our culture says it is wrong that we say it is.


They can eat other animals. They need the life force, everything living has a life force. every living thing has a life force, however the Wraith need HUMAN life energy. When they reach puberty their bodies undergo a change and can no longer process nutrients from food and don't produce the life energy anymore. Humans are different from other animals, hence their energy is different as well. They can not use energy from other animals, it is only human energy they can use.


Yes we do need to eat meat for their isn't enugh land to plant all the food we need to sustain the population on Earth.Actually there is more than enough. With proper rotation of crops and modern farming techniques the world can produce more than enough food for every man woman and child on the planet. The reason there is still starvation and hunger in the world is because the western world is so ethno-centric and wasteful.


We also use the animals for all kinds of other stuff besides just eating.
Yes and?