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GateWorld
November 19th, 2006, 09:46 PM
<DIV ALIGN="center"><TABLE WIDTH="450" BORDER="0" CELLSPACING="0" CELLPADDING="7"><TR><TD STYLE="border:0;"><DIV ALIGN="left"><FONT FACE="Verdana, Arial, san-serif" SIZE="2" COLOR="#000000"><A HREF="http://www.gateworld.net/atlantis/s3/313.shtml"><IMG SRC="http://www.gateworld.net/atlantis/graphics/313.jpg" WIDTH="160" HEIGHT="120" ALIGN="right" HSPACE="10" VSPACE="2" BORDER="0" STYLE="border: 1px black solid" ALT="Visit the Episode Guide"></A><FONT SIZE="1" COLOR="#888888">ATLANTIS SEASON THREE</FONT>
<FONT SIZE="4"><A HREF="http://www.gateworld.net/atlantis/s3/313.shtml" STYLE="text-decoration: none">IRRESPONSIBLE</A></FONT>
<FONT SIZE="1">EPISODE NUMBER - 313</FONT>
<IMG SRC="/images/clear.gif" WIDTH="1" HEIGHT="10" ALT="">
The team discovers Lucius Lavin manipulating the people of another hapless planet, using Ancient technology to pose as an invincible hero.

<FONT SIZE="1" COLOR="#888888"><B><A HREF="http://www.gateworld.net/atlantis/s3/313.shtml">VISIT THE EPISODE GUIDE ></A></B>
SPOILERS! PHOTOS! AND MORE!</FONT></FONT></DIV></TD></TR></TABLE></DIV>

watcher652
December 5th, 2006, 04:59 AM
Wow, I've never been the first to post in an episode thread.

I liked it. Not the best, but not the worst. Lucius was much more tolerable here than in Irresistable. David Hewlett must have been relieved in this episode because, for a change, he didn't have to do all that exposition he normally has. Richard Kind had a lot of dialog.

And, the ending! Now, I know people are going to complain that there should have been a darker confrontation between Koyla and Sheppard. But you know what? I've had my fill of darkness with The Storm/The Eye, Brotherhood and especiallly Common Ground. This showed how small Kolya became. And that Sheppard keeps his promises.

More in another post. I just wanted to get that in while it was fresh in my mind.

Willow'sCat
December 5th, 2006, 05:13 AM
I almost fell asleep. :p

OK other then killing Koyla (didn't see that coming :rolleyes: ) this was a blatant filler, we didn't even end up with a working personal shield.

From the lame start, to the cartoon bomb under the table, it was hopeless.

And yes watcher652.... I cringed at the very silly stand off, so this is how it ends, guns at high noon! :rolleyes: After all the bad happenings it ends like that! Surely they bring him back... well they better he is the best dam villain they have!

At least we got some shots of John's crotch *hey I am shallow* I won't even start with the talk about the women and the dresses *oh dear*

I don't normally give scores but 2/10... Thank goodness this is over.

TheReturnOfTheLantian
December 5th, 2006, 05:42 AM
I almost fell asleep. :p

OK other then killing Koyla (didn't see that coming :rolleyes: ) this was a blatant filler, we didn't even end up with a working personal shield.

From the lame start, to the cartoon bomb under the table, it was hopeless.

And yes watcher652.... I cringed at the very silly stand off, so this is how it ends, guns at high noon! :rolleyes: After all the bad happenings it ends like that! Surely they bring him back... well they better he is the best dam villain they have!

At least we got some shots of John's crotch *hey I am shallow* I won't even start with the talk about the women and the dresses *oh dear*

I don't normally give scores but 2/10... Thank goodness this is over.

so dose Koyla die?? and how dose sheppard find his team?? and why would you give it 2/10 tbh not being horrible. you should be greatfull that stargate atlantis is showing in canada when other places in the world dont get it. and they have to buy the DVD's

Steve_the_Wraith
December 5th, 2006, 06:01 AM
Extremely disapointing!

I'll say it again Joseph Mallozzi and Paul Mullie should never write for Atlantis ever
This one makes their other episodes including "The Tower" look like masterpieces

watcher652
December 5th, 2006, 06:11 AM
OK other then killing Koyla (didn't see that coming :rolleyes: ) this was a blatant filler, we didn't even end up with a working personal shield.

Frankly, I was kinda hoping that Kolya would be finally killed. He just deserved it. And I didn't want it to be big and grand. I liked the way they handled it. The High Noon western look of it. Kolya deserved the death of a thug. I really liked how Joe Flanigan played that scene.

No, we didn't get another shield, but when do we ever get any tech? They lose whole ships before they can study them. Doomsday weapons blow up in their faces.

sgeureka
December 5th, 2006, 06:15 AM
I was expecting the worst, but I gotta admit that this ep was pretty decent. Not the best, not the worst. A little bit hu-hum maybe.

It had some moments where I really had to LOL. (Can't remember where though.)

But there were a couple of plot holes that I noticed:
1. So Lucius is invincible. He can take a hit of heavy objects from 5 feet above, but he can't resist the push of a man who wants to drown him. What?!
2. Wasn't it mentioned in Hide and Seek that this Ancient device can only be used by one person after it was initialized? Clearly not the case in this ep. (TPTB will probably just say that this device was just another version.)

Can't say anything definite about Kolya. I think TPTB should be brave and kill off major recurring characters without the possibility of "yeah, he escaped, and then he was nurtured back to health by local villagers." It's IMO getting to the point where no-one ever gets any closure anymore. It started with the Apophis and the Tok'ra, and the Genii characters are no exception.

Edit: And I really liked the showdown situation in the end. I didn't expect to see something like this on a Stargate show.

Wraith_Hunter
December 5th, 2006, 06:32 AM
OK other then killing Koyla (didn't see that coming ) this was a blatant filler, we didn't even end up with a working personal shield.

Lo, when do they ever give them anything! Everything they get is always gone or destroyed before the end of the ep. They done it all those years with SG-1 & now the exact same thing happens many times per season in SGA as well. Heck, if they found an Ancient potato (even an alien one as well for that matter), I'm sure that'd be deemed too much of an advantage & would have to go as well.

GateLadyM
December 5th, 2006, 06:38 AM
Extremely disapointing!

I'll say it again Joseph Mallozzi and Paul Mullie should never write for Atlantis ever
This one makes their other episodes including "The Tower" look like masterpieces

You are aware that Mullie and Mallozzi will be writing full-time for SGA next year? That is no joke. Just think of the endless possibilities! :S

Wraith_Hunter
December 5th, 2006, 06:44 AM
You are aware that Mullie and Mallozzi will be writing full-time for SGA next year? That is no joke. Just think of the endless possibilities! :S

Mmmmm..let's see. What about 'Lou Lavin' his equally loveable :mckay: rogue of a son in his own adventures around Pegasus.

Steve_the_Wraith
December 5th, 2006, 06:57 AM
Oh god I hope not, with SG-1 ending Atlantis can only support a few writers and hopefully Mallozzi&Mullie will be one of the ones to leave

Next year I hope Atlantis ditches M&M and keeps Gero, Binder, Cueperus (who wrote Common Ground), Brad Wright, RCC and maybe a few new one (actual new writers not refugees from SG-1's writing staff)

FoolishPleasure
December 5th, 2006, 07:21 AM
Cooper and Wright are now completely off SGA. Mallozzi and Mullie are the new executive producers. Lucky us. :rolleyes:

http://savestargatesg1.com/news/?p=483

Starxgate
December 5th, 2006, 07:22 AM
Who kills Kolya ? Please tell me John does it

g.o.d
December 5th, 2006, 07:30 AM
I really don't understand.They have a galaxy full of Wraiths and come out with this stupid and boring episode.I hate Lucius and hope we won't see him again

RichardDaGeek
December 5th, 2006, 07:44 AM
Another piece of tech we didnt get. Yet another personal shield down the tube. TPTB are starting to seem like a bunch of arrogant tollans that refuse to let us have tech.

Sheppard's Delight
December 5th, 2006, 07:50 AM
You are aware that Mullie and Mallozzi will be writing full-time for SGA next year? That is no joke. Just think of the endless possibilities! :S

Very frightening indeed!!!!!!:(

Nearfantastica
December 5th, 2006, 07:56 AM
2. Wasn't it mentioned in Hide and Seek that this Ancient device can only be used by one person after it was initialized? Clearly not the case in this ep. (TPTB will probably just say that this device was just another version.)


Speaking of, in Hide and Seek, Rodney couldn't eat food or drink coffee...yet Lucius is chowing down in almost every scene! I hate plot holes, and if this episode is any kind of gage for what we can expect next season, then I'm very worried. It makes me want to cry! :mckay:

majortrip
December 5th, 2006, 08:19 AM
This is actually the worst episode this season to me, second to The Tower overall. Sure, both episodes had some funny team lines, but yuck.

Plot holes abound. In Hide and Seek, McKay was unable to eat or drink, yet Lucius was able to here. And if McKay couldn't even get coffee into his mouth, how can Lucius be dunked into water? It was like, "Oh, we still have that personal shield thing, let's use that and forget anything else we've seen about the device."

I found the episode too campy for my tastes. I don't care for Lucius at all, and even Kolya wasn't as menacing as we've seen him in the past. I doubt we'll see him again, as he was supposedly shot dead. If he does somehow resurface, I'll fnd myself wondering how they walked away without Beckett making sure he was dead and it would be too ridiculous.

Anyway, there was some nice team banter, but overall thumbs down.

And if this is the caliber of episodes we can expect from M&M as compared to other writers for the show and other episodes, especially this season, then I feel a great sadness at the thought of them taking over from Cooper and Wright next season.

female Wraith
December 5th, 2006, 08:35 AM
Cooper and Wright are now completely off SGA. Mallozzi and Mullie are the new executive producers. Lucky us. :rolleyes:

http://savestargatesg1.com/news/?p=483

I can't believe it! Every episode written by M&M is a total waiste and crap. I wonder how the comapany that gives the money for SGA is sooooo stupid. May be their managers are fans of stupid characters like the leech Lucius and insipid plots?!
And this thing about Weir! Total crap!
I think if M&M are the producers of Season 4 this will be the last season for SGA.

Linzi
December 5th, 2006, 09:05 AM
This is actually the worst episode this season to me, second to The Tower overall. Sure, both episodes had some funny team lines, but yuck.

Plot holes abound. In Hide and Seek, McKay was unable to eat or drink, yet Lucius was able to here. And if McKay couldn't even get coffee into his mouth, how can Lucius be dunked into water? It was like, "Oh, we still have that personal shield thing, let's use that and forget anything else we've seen about the device."

I found the episode too campy for my tastes. I don't care for Lucius at all, and even Kolya wasn't as menacing as we've seen him in the past. I doubt we'll see him again, as he was supposedly shot dead. If he does somehow resurface, I'll fnd myself wondering how they walked away without Beckett making sure he was dead and it would be too ridiculous.

Anyway, there was some nice team banter, but overall thumbs down.

And if this is the caliber of episodes we can expect from M&M as compared to other writers for the show and other episodes, especially this season, then I feel a great sadness at the thought of them taking over from Cooper and Wright next season.

DITTO!

sgeureka
December 5th, 2006, 09:19 AM
Who kills Kolya ? Please tell me John does itIf Kolya was indeed shot dead (I wouldn't bet my life on it), then yes, it was Sheppard.


Plot holes abound. In Hide and Seek, McKay was unable to eat or drink, yet Lucius was able to here. And if McKay couldn't even get coffee into his mouth, how can Lucius be dunked into water? It was like, "Oh, we still have that personal shield thing, let's use that and forget anything else we've seen about the device."Right, his hair was wet, wasn't it? But I thought this scene made sense for once: Even if Lucius could not be drowned (because water shouldn't penetrate the personal shield as originally seen in H&S), he still could have died of suffocation under water.

(That's what letting-the-fans-do-the-logic would mean...)

watcher652
December 5th, 2006, 09:52 AM
I don't have time to edit these comments on the first 15 minutes, so I apologize if some of my points have already been made.

-Yay, Beckett’s in this episode!

- We finally get an explanation of that photo on Sheppard’s nightstand. A confirmation that Evel Knievel is Sheppard’s hero.

- Good for you, Rodney! I’ve always thought Batman was more a “super” hero than Superman because Batman trained both his mind and his body to aid in his crime fighting. It wasn’t because he was born on some other planet and just happened to be super because of the sun.

- Why is Sheppard the only one who ever has sunglasses?

- There’s gotta be a real job that Lucius can manage. He really can mesmerize an audience. Storytelling can be a prized occupation.

- Lucius also must be a speed reader because he certainly seems to have accessed a lot of mission reports.

- “I’m invincible.” Oh, was I the only one to hear Rodney’s voice when Lucius said that? “In-vinc-able!”

- So Lucius says the anyone can used the shield after it’s been turned on? If they knew that, Rodney didn’t need the ATA gene therapy to use the shield in Hide and Seek, all he had to do was to get Sheppard to initiate it.

- Funny that Ronon was the only one eating in the tavern.

- Although some people have mentioned Lucius eating, he didn’t when he put on the shield.

- Lucius wasn’t drowning. He was suffocating. Underwater, he couldn’t breathe, he wasn’t inhaling water.

- I thought the personal shield bonds with the user. How come Sheppard can use it after Lucius? That contradicts what was said in Hide and Seek when Grodin said the shield bonded with McKay. But maybe the model in that episode was an experimental one and Lucius had an upgrade.

- That villiage was pretty eager to let Lucius defend them. And they seemed otherwise clueless except for that one woman who first blew off Lucius in the tavern. The people act like they've never had the Wraith visit or raiders come thru the 'gate.

- I did like the spaghetti western theme of the show.

More later...

ShadowMaat
December 5th, 2006, 10:21 AM
Now imagine Lucius as the spinoff character for the new series...

Athenaktt
December 5th, 2006, 10:48 AM
I have a question. I'm trying to type up some transcripts, but I have no clue who the "Scottish Hero" the Beckett brought up in the beginning of the episode. Anyone familar with the name can help me out?

Arlessiar
December 5th, 2006, 11:12 AM
I didn’t read much about this episode beforehand, so I was pretty neutral about it. But now that I saw it I can only say something I never said about any Atlantis episode before (not even ‘The Tower’):

What an incredible waste of time! Boring, pathetic, full of clichés and plot-holes, pseudo-heroic ado and silly costumes and endless phrasemongering and banal drivel.

And Kolya is dead now. Poor guy, died in such a silly episode. He was the best villain of this show, he should have had a worthier end in a better ep. Yeah ok, Shep shot him, that was the way it was supposed to be, but the scene itself seriously lacked atmosphere and importance. At least for me.

And what about the conflict between Kolya and Ladon, the new leader of the Genii after the coup? I’d really hoped they’d bring that up one day. :(

The prison scene was ok and funny. I liked Rodney there: Rodney and the spoon, Rodney babbling about his hero Batman (sounding like a pouting five year old), Rodney fearing he might go into anaphylactic shock or something because of the soup (as it looks as if he feared he’d suffocate)...

Did someone else notice that sometimes the turtle brooch wasn’t always glowing when it was supposed to be, meaning the prop department people forgot to switch that thing on?


- We finally get an explanation of that photo on Sheppard’s nightstand. A confirmation that Evel Knievel is Sheppard’s hero. I liked it that they brought this into the show. :)

- “I’m invincible.” Oh, was I the only one to hear Rodney’s voice when Lucius said that? “In-vinc-able!” I thought the same and I think the scene was supposed to be mirroring the "In-vuln-erable" scene. In my mind I immediately saw Rodney standing there, geeking out with excitement. :)

Bye, A.

gooner_diva
December 5th, 2006, 11:21 AM
What a way to dispose of Kolya, the only decent villain this show ever had. :rolleyes:

If the rumours are true that the two geniuses Mallozzi and Mullie are taking over SGA, Season 4 will undoubtedly be its last. Fortunately I won't be sticking around long enough to witness the humiliating early cancellation of a show that was so damn promising at the beginning, but it will still hurt. Why the semi-dark, almost gritty, relatively intellectually challenging stories from S1 were discontinued I will never know, but I do know that what we're seeing at the moment is a pile of horse manure that doesn't deserve to be sold under the name Stargate.

What's perhaps most maddening about this whole thing is that SGA wasn't billed as an idiotically campy show.

At this point the show has had more disgracefully bad episodes than great ones, so it can't even be argued that rubbish like Sanctuary, Epiphany, The Tower, Irresistible and Irresponsible is an exception to the rule. I can only see the situation getting worse with M&M at the helm. While I can maybe live with a couple of clunkers a season from under their pen, I can only envision the show dying under their complete control.

And for the love of gods, this is a 20-episode-a-season show. If other shows (rare, but I've seen it happen) can manage 24, even 26 episodes without cheap fillers that insult the intellect or clip shows, why can't SGA think of 20 solid stories a year? If the lack of creativity is the problem, perhaps it's time to pull down the shutters and quit.

Marcus117
December 5th, 2006, 11:37 AM
and why would you give it 2/10 tbh not being horrible. you should be greatfull that stargate atlantis is showing in canada when other places in the world dont get it. and they have to buy the DVD's

Worst thing I've ever read on this Forum. Silly...

SGFerrit
December 5th, 2006, 11:46 AM
If the rumours are true that the two geniuses Mallozzi and Mullie are taking over SGA, Season 4 will undoubtedly be its last.

Is the reason Mullie and Mallozzi are (possibly) taking over because Cooper etc... are working on the two films and a third series?


but I do know that what we're seeing at the moment is a pile of horse manure that doesn't deserve to be sold under the name Stargate.

I think the majority of season 3 has been great, No man's land, Sateda, Progeny, Common Ground, McKay and Mrs Miller, The Return prt 1&2, Echoes have all been exceelent episodes, IMO some of the best. Though I admit Mullie and Mallozzi eps are crap. They wrote irresistable and the tower, possibly the two worst episodes of Atlanis ever.

SGFerrit
December 5th, 2006, 11:48 AM
Now imagine Lucius as the spinoff character for the new series...

He definately, 100% won't be hough so it's alright:)

majortrip
December 5th, 2006, 11:58 AM
Right, his hair was wet, wasn't it? But I thought this scene made sense for once: Even if Lucius could not be drowned (because water shouldn't penetrate the personal shield as originally seen in H&S), he still could have died of suffocation under water.


Drowning, suffocation, whatever. That's not what bothered me about the scene. It was the fact that he was wet that perturbed me. Just poor continuity.

DivineLight
December 5th, 2006, 12:30 PM
I'm not surprised (although quite saddened) that Atlantis shows have gone into the toilet. Almost every SG1S9 episode Joseph Mallozzi & Paul Mullie wrote was basically useless filler. Don't get me wrong many of the S3 episodes have been awesome but ABSOLUTELY NONE of them were written by these two hacks. Did they sell their souls to the devils to be writters on this show? Why is it that only the fans can see they cannot write worth a damn? If the rumours are indeed true about S4 that is sad.

REMOVE Joseph Mallozzi & Paul Mullie, forcefully if necessary, from writing any more episodes. Please.

joebags
December 5th, 2006, 12:33 PM
This episode pulled me right out of lurkerdom.

The horror! The horror! Now, how do I get my lost hour of life back? :rolleyes:

ken_is_here
December 5th, 2006, 12:34 PM
To be fair to Joe and Paul --

I have to say that the script for "Irresponsible" was without a doubt the funniest I had read of the entire season. Seriously -- I was on the floor more than once. I loved this script. But, as with all productions, there are miscommunications along the way, and sometimes -- through nobody's fault - the tone and nuance doesn't always get translated to the screen.

I'll give you one example. This was meant to take place in more of a western kind of town. Thus the high noon-inspired finale. But when it came time to find a location we found ourselves settling for more of a dutch village. It didn't really have the same sense of gravitas -- but that couldn't be helped.

There were many more little instances of this that went on -- and it's unfortunate, because if the original production script had been fully realized on screen, I think you would all be jumping for joy that J&P were spearheading the fourth season of SGA. It was that good!

And I say this unbiased and unsolicited -- as my involvement with season four will likely be minimal to non-existant, due to the cancellation of SG-1.

Ken C

FoolishPleasure
December 5th, 2006, 12:41 PM
And I say this unbiased and unsolicited -- as my involvement with season four will likely be minimal to non-existant, due to the cancellation of SG-1.

Ken C

That is unfortunate as many of us feel you have a good handle on the SGA characters and would be a huge asset to the show. :)

obsessed1
December 5th, 2006, 12:42 PM
To be fair to Joe and Paul --

I have to say that the script for "Irresponsible" was without a doubt the funniest I had read of the entire season. Seriously -- I was on the floor more than once. I loved this script. But, as with all productions, there are miscommunications along the way, and sometimes -- through nobody's fault - the tone and nuance doesn't always get translated to the screen.

I'll give you one example. This was meant to take place in more of a western kind of town. Thus the high noon-inspired finale. But when it came time to find a location we found ourselves settling for more of a dutch village. It didn't really have the same sense of gravitas -- but that couldn't be helped.

There were many more little instances of this that went on -- and it's unfortunate, because if the original production script had been fully realized on screen, I think you would all be jumping for joy that J&P were spearheading the fourth season of SGA. It was that good!

And I say this unbiased and unsolicited -- as my involvement with season four will likely be minimal to non-existant, due to the cancellation of SG-1.

Ken C
Thanks for posting and trying to instil some faith in the loyal viewers about miscommunications etc.

I have to say, I'm looking forward to the other episodes you've written. I was thouroughly (Can't spell today LOL!) impressed by CG :D

obsessed1
December 5th, 2006, 12:42 PM
That is unfortunate as many of us feel you have a good handle on the SGA characters and would be a huge asset to the show. :)
i second that :D

ken_is_here
December 5th, 2006, 12:46 PM
And as for the question of why Lucious was wet when dunked in the barrel (or how he was able to be dunked in a barrel at all...) -- I asked this same question during a script meeting -- and Rob C (patiently) explained that for the shield to work, it had to react to kinetic energy. So bullets, falling bricks, even punches and kicks all register -- but anything moving at low speeds, like being held underwater - would have no effect. (and I'm sure if you really nitpick you can find fault with this definition-- but there has to be at least a small degree of suspension of disbelief when it comes to sci-fi, yes?)

I believe Rob C referenced an episode of SG-1 where they got past a personal shield by, very slowly and methodically, inserting a dagger through it, and stabbing the person. So there you go...you learn something new about pseudo-science everyday. :)

By the way -- I was the guy in the room that always had a million questions about how everything worked. And between Brad and Paul, they had an answer for everything. They're both walking tech-clopedias.

Ken C

Ken C

Sheppard's Delight
December 5th, 2006, 12:46 PM
And I say this unbiased and unsolicited -- as my involvement with season four will likely be minimal to non-existant, due to the cancellation of SG-1.

Ken C

Oh no!!! We are I am sure very sad to hear that because we just loved Common Ground and we were looking forward to getting lots more from you :(

It is a shame that Irresponsible didnt work like it was supposed to - it is actually the only episode this season that I have no real interest to rewatch - and that is saying something as I usually cant get enough of them!!!!

Alipeeps
December 5th, 2006, 12:49 PM
And as for the question of why Lucious was wet when dunked in the barrel (or how he was able to be dunked in a barrel at all...) -- I asked this same question during a script meeting -- and Rob C (patiently) explained that for the shield to work, it had to react to kinetic energy. So bullets, falling bricks, even punches and kicks all register -- but anything moving at low speeds, like being held underwater - would have no effect. (and I'm sure if you really nitpick you can find fault with this definition-- but there has to be at least a small degree of suspension of disbelief when it comes to sci-fi, yes?)

I believe Rob C referenced an episode of SG-1 where they got past a personal shield by, very slowly and methodically, inserting a dagger through it, and stabbing the person. So there you go...you learn something new about pseudo-science everyday. :)

By the way -- I was the guy in the room that always had a million questions about how everything worked. And between Brad and Paul, they had an answer for everything. They're both walking tech-clopedias.

Ken C

Ken C

Thanks for clearing those questions up for us Ken. Can I just take this opportunity to say - no disrespect to M&M intended - that i wish to goodness you had written this episode. I quite enjoyed it, it certainly ewasn't a bad episode, but I can't help feeling that mixing Lucius with Kolya and particularly the rather light-hearted, comical feel given to the episode overall rather wasted the wonderful build up of bad feeling etc between Sheppard and Kolya that you gave us in Common Ground.

Edit: Just seen your other post about how the script has perhaps not translated to the screen as well as it could have and that's a shame. There were some elements of the writing that I really did enjoy - I just felt that the overall atmosphere given to the episode didn't allow for it to really, properly deal with the very serious history between Sheppard and Kolya.

Sorry to hear your involvement in Season 4 will be limited too - if I'm not being too cheeky.. you say it's due to SG1 being cancelled.. how does that affect your work on SGA? Were you hired more for SG1 or SGA or is it because writers previously writing for SG1 will now be working on SGA, thus meaning less writers required overall? Sorry, my understanding of how such things work is limited...

Sheppard's Delight
December 5th, 2006, 12:50 PM
Thanks for clearing those questions up for us Ken. Can I just take this opportunity to say - no disrespect to M&M intended - that i wish to goodness you had written this episode. I quite enjoyed it, it certainly ewasn't a bad episode, but I can't help feeling that mixing Lucius with Kolya and particularly the rather light-hearted, comical feel given to the episode overall rather wasted the wonderful build up of bad feeling etc between Sheppard and Kolya that you gave us in Common Ground.

After common ground I was certainly expecting more of a reaction than we got not just from Shep but the rest of the team too!!!!!

Wraith_Hunter
December 5th, 2006, 12:51 PM
To be fair to Joe and Paul --

I have to say that the script for "Irresponsible" was without a doubt the funniest I had read of the entire season. Seriously -- I was on the floor more than once. I loved this script. But, as with all productions, there are miscommunications along the way, and sometimes -- through nobody's fault - the tone and nuance doesn't always get translated to the screen.

I'll give you one example. This was meant to take place in more of a western kind of town. Thus the high noon-inspired finale. But when it came time to find a location we found ourselves settling for more of a dutch village. It didn't really have the same sense of gravitas -- but that couldn't be helped.

There were many more little instances of this that went on -- and it's unfortunate, because if the original production script had been fully realized on screen, I think you would all be jumping for joy that J&P were spearheading the fourth season of SGA. It was that good!

And I say this unbiased and unsolicited -- as my involvement with season four will likely be minimal to non-existant, due to the cancellation of SG-1.

Ken C

Hi Ken, the problem here is that this is a Sci-Fi show. If anybody wants to try out for Def Jam, then that'd be fine to do all the comedy stuff. I don't think it really would have mattered much more had it been a western type setting, backgrounds are just that. 'Irresistable' was the same...Far too campy for everybody's liking. Simply the introduction of the Lucius character was misconceived. If you think back to what the character did with the drugging women etc, there is honestly nothing funny about it. Especially if you know someone like me who had this happen to them.

Devoting 2 whole eps to this character was a complete waste. It would have been much better spent using it on someone like Ford or whoever. Heck after =seeing these 2 eps. I'd even prefer to go back to the 'Sancuraty' or 'The Tower' planets again (& that's saying something).

As for the unbiased opinion :cameron:, you'd have to say that to stay on their good sides for more scripts to be given to yourself in S4. Although that may be a tad difficult being they like to take all the limelight, nevermore now as they are in charge next season.

bluealien
December 5th, 2006, 12:52 PM
To be fair to Joe and Paul --

I have to say that the script for "Irresponsible" was without a doubt the funniest I had read of the entire season. Seriously -- I was on the floor more than once. I loved this script. But, as with all productions, there are miscommunications along the way, and sometimes -- through nobody's fault - the tone and nuance doesn't always get translated to the screen.

I'll give you one example. This was meant to take place in more of a western kind of town. Thus the high noon-inspired finale. But when it came time to find a location we found ourselves settling for more of a dutch village. It didn't really have the same sense of gravitas -- but that couldn't be helped.

There were many more little instances of this that went on -- and it's unfortunate, because if the original production script had been fully realized on screen, I think you would all be jumping for joy that J&P were spearheading the fourth season of SGA. It was that good!

And I say this unbiased and unsolicited -- as my involvement with season four will likely be minimal to non-existant, due to the cancellation of SG-1.

Ken C


NOOOOOOOOO !! - you have to lobby to be MUCH more involved in season four otherwise I am beginning to worry about the standard of eps we will be be getting. No disprespect to the afore mentioned writers but you rock when it comes to writing for SGA - I hope the PTB realise that!!


Thanks for dropping by :)

obsessed1
December 5th, 2006, 12:55 PM
After common ground I was certainly expecting more of a reaction than we got not just from Shep but the rest of the team too!!!!!
yeah i would have expected to have Kolya and John's showdown as a seperate episode really. and done without lucius :D

Nolamom
December 5th, 2006, 01:00 PM
<snip> But, as with all productions, there are miscommunications along the way, and sometimes -- through nobody's fault - the tone and nuance doesn't always get translated to the screen.
<snip>

I can appreciate that. Production difficulties have a way of changing even the best of scripts. It's unfortunate that this one, as you say, fell victim to such problems.

Luz
December 5th, 2006, 01:00 PM
yeah i would have expected to have Kolya and John's showdown as a seperate episode really. and done without lucius :D

Kolya deserved his own episode dedicated to his demise, it was such a waste, and what an undignified dead for such a great character to have to share screen time with that piece of crap called Lucius in his final episode.
Can't we all pretend this one didn't happen, and have Kolya back?, it wouldn't be too hard for me. He deserved better, that stupidity with that idiotic Lucius piece of scum doesn't go with Kolya.

Sheppard's Delight
December 5th, 2006, 01:02 PM
yeah i would have expected to have Kolya and John's showdown as a seperate episode really. and done without lucius :D

Yes we were getting really excited about it and it was just such a let down!!:(

SGAFan
December 5th, 2006, 01:02 PM
And I say this unbiased and unsolicited -- as my involvement with season four will likely be minimal to non-existant, due to the cancellation of SG-1.

Ken C

I am really... REALLY sorry to hear that. I think you have a fantastic grip on the characters and stories that SGA should be telling. (CG was fantastic, btw. One of my absolute favorite eps!) I'd love to see you, Carl Binder, Martin Gero and Robert Cooper spearheading season 4. I'm sorry to hear that you won't be involved. VERY sorry. :(

As far as Irresponsible was concerned, there were parts that just made me outright laugh. The comedy stuff was hilarious.

I LOVED how Sheppard's initial reaction to Kolya was done. Great writing there, and great acting by JF.

Overall I liked the ep, but not one of my favorites. I think this appearance of Lucius was much better because it was funny but not way over the top like I felt Irresistible was. But, I wouldve liked to see more team stuff and really would've liked to see more to the showdown and death of Kolya. After all the history he and Shep had, it seemed too quick and simple. *shrug*

Sheppard's Delight
December 5th, 2006, 01:03 PM
Kolya deserved his own episode dedicated to his demise, it was such a waste, and what an undignified dead for such a great character to have to share screen time with that piece of crap called Lucius in his final episode.
Can't we all pretend this one didn't happen, and have Kolya back?, it wouldn't be too hard for me. He deserved better, that stupidity with that idiotic Lucius piece of scum doesn't go with Kolya.

I cant believe this is the end of Kolya :( - that just sucks!!!

JohnSheppard28
December 5th, 2006, 01:22 PM
Maybe we need a Save Ken Petition started up (joking) :D :D

Jersey13
December 5th, 2006, 01:25 PM
There are a few episodes of SG-1 where it's said that the Goa'uld shields, that tech belonging to the system lords before Anubis upgraded using Thor's knowledge, was vulnerable to slow-speed attacks, as evidenced by the episode where O'Neill throws a knife through the hand of Horus, and then the ep where they shoot tranq darts through Osiris' personal shield. The scientific justification of that little weakness is certainly confusing all in itself, unless you consider that all that seems to be penetrating the shields in that manner are very small profile objects, like knives or darts.

I respect that you brought this issue up, Ken, but if they had bothered to watch "Hide and Seek" even once before writing this script, it should have been obvious that the rule about slow-moving impacts wasn't being applied in that original episode. I'm sorry, but I just can't stand inconsistencies like that, not when all you have to do is just take 43 minutes out of your busy day to simply watch it just once all the way through in order to make sure. Take some notes about your new toys, for goodness sake.

Maybe they should hire fans to 'beta' their scripts for them. :D Heck, I'd do it for free.

caty
December 5th, 2006, 01:27 PM
Maybe we need a Save Ken Petition started up (joking) :D :D

Why not? Good idea!!! :)

Ruined_puzzle
December 5th, 2006, 01:28 PM
*skips the episode*
Goes back to watching Echoes and TRW.

Luz
December 5th, 2006, 01:31 PM
*skips the episode*
Goes back to watching Echoes and TRW.

Good choice, I'll just erase it from my memory with bleach, and pretend it didn't happen.

ShadowMaat
December 5th, 2006, 01:34 PM
I respect your views and your loyalty, Ken, but "poor translation from page to screen" only excuses so much... and it doesn't explain certain OTHER excremental eps that have been dumped on us.

Personally, I think whoever thought that Lucius was not only a good character but one worthy of being on the show more than once (and without having his guts ripped out and his head stuck on a pike) needs some serious therapy. Or perhaps a remedial course on what constitutes good writing.

Athenaktt
December 5th, 2006, 01:35 PM
For me, it wasn't about the Lucius being able to get wet, but more along the lines that in "Hide and Seek" Grodin tells Weir that only McKay can use the shield because it was imprinted, so it wouldn't work on Sheppard.

So if this is the same type of shield, shouldn't it not work on anyone but the random guy Lucius found to activate the shield? Much less Sheppard at the end of the episode? Unless there is something I missed there. :p

Luz
December 5th, 2006, 01:36 PM
Personally, I think whoever thought that Lucius was not only a good character but one worthy of being on the show more than once (and without having his guts ripped out and his head stuck on a pike) needs some serious therapy. Or perhaps a remedial course on what constitutes good writing.

Or perhaps a good detox?.

ShadowMaat
December 5th, 2006, 01:43 PM
For me, it wasn't about the Lucius being able to get wet, but more along the lines that in "Hide and Seek" Grodin tells Weir that only McKay can use the shield because it was imprinted, so it wouldn't work on Sheppard.

So if this is the same type of shield, shouldn't it not work on anyone but the random guy Lucius found to activate the shield? Much less Sheppard at the end of the episode? Unless there is something I missed there. :p

I'm sorry, were you expecting continuity?? This is Stargate, we don't hold no truck with that kind 'o muddlymuck. ;)

OaTmEaLfAiRy
December 5th, 2006, 01:44 PM
shots of John's crotch

Best. Spoiler. Ever.

ToasterOnFire
December 5th, 2006, 01:44 PM
Oh man, I'm so scared to watch this episode now. :D

Athenaktt
December 5th, 2006, 01:45 PM
I'm sorry, were you expecting continuity?? This is Stargate, we don't hold no truck with that kind 'o muddlymuck. ;)
*sigh* I guess i was hoping for too much there. And forgot it was Stargate for a minute there. :p

majortrip
December 5th, 2006, 01:47 PM
For me, it wasn't about the Lucius being able to get wet, but more along the lines that in "Hide and Seek" Grodin tells Weir that only McKay can use the shield because it was imprinted, so it wouldn't work on Sheppard.

So if this is the same type of shield, shouldn't it not work on anyone but the random guy Lucius found to activate the shield? Much less Sheppard at the end of the episode? Unless there is something I missed there. :p

Everything about the use of that shield and the disregard for what had been established bothered me. And I appreciate the explanation, I do. But I suppose what I was looking for was some sort of explanation that they'd learned more about the shield or something along those lines, rather than just ignoring what we learned in H&S.

And, that's the last I'll say on the matter.:p

And, yes, as a long time viewer, I do expect some continuity.:cool:

gravelgerdie
December 5th, 2006, 01:48 PM
I respect that you brought this issue up, Ken, but if they had bothered to watch "Hide and Seek" even once before writing this script, it should have been obvious that the rule about slow-moving impacts wasn't being applied in that original episode. I'm sorry, but I just can't stand inconsistencies like that, not when all you have to do is just take 43 minutes out of your busy day to simply watch it just once all the way through in order to make sure. Take some notes about your new toys, for goodness sake.

Maybe they should hire fans to 'beta' their scripts for them. :D Heck, I'd do it for free.


Thank You
I'm so glad you mentioned that.. I was going to post the same thing.
I was like *WHAT* on the slow moving impacts explanation. Because if thats the case, then Rodney would of been wet when he dumped the coffee on himself in the episode or "Hide and Seek". So the explanation that the creators were trying to give for the episode Irresponsible are LAME and just idiotic.

mckaychick
December 5th, 2006, 01:49 PM
man i still want to see this episode.

Kliggins
December 5th, 2006, 01:52 PM
Cooper and Wright are now completely off SGA. Mallozzi and Mullie are the new executive producers. Lucky us. :rolleyes:

http://savestargatesg1.com/news/?p=483

oh yay *yawn*

ShadowMaat
December 5th, 2006, 01:52 PM
So does this mean that they're now importing excuses/technobabble from the SG-1-verse in addition to the plots, characters and enemies? ;)

Kliggins
December 5th, 2006, 01:54 PM
You are aware that Mullie and Mallozzi will be writing full-time for SGA next year? That is no joke. Just think of the endless possibilities! :S

Thank you, I would rather not. :)

Luz
December 5th, 2006, 01:58 PM
This poor show is *SO* doomed. http://i66.photobucket.com/albums/h280/Schumpeter/smilies/gros3d119.gif

Goddess
December 5th, 2006, 01:58 PM
Did this episode air in Canada last night??

mckaychick
December 5th, 2006, 02:00 PM
yeah it aired friday

Ruined_puzzle
December 5th, 2006, 02:01 PM
This poor show is *SO* doomed. http://i66.photobucket.com/albums/h280/Schumpeter/smilies/gros3d119.gif

LOL, I have to laugh otherwise I might cry.
*wishes Binder would write full time, hey it might come true ;)*

Klenotka
December 5th, 2006, 02:05 PM
Only this-kill Lucius.

Seriously, who decided that this guy is funny? He is irritating, not funny. His "funny" teasing with Sheppard was so annoying that I wanted to switch off the player.

I love SGA, and I hate when they are doing this. Even Irrisisteble was better bc of some nice Sheppard/McKay teasing and action. This was only...running from one place to another, all characters were totally off-Beckett e.g....is it the same man who took care for his turtles...and what did he do there anyway? I know people change but not from episode to episode.

I so desperately wished for Kolya to appear...five more minutes and I wouldn´t be able to watch it.
The worst episode...ever. Even Tower made more sense that this...nothing.

Uf, I hate myself for writing this about some SGA episode, I am usually connecting "boring" with SG1...well, not every day is good day and I expected too much after last week´s episode. My hopes are in Sunday now.

Arlessiar
December 5th, 2006, 02:05 PM
Hi Ken, thanks for dropping by here and giving us background info about this ep! It was very interesting to learn that originally this ep was supposed to be filmed in a completely different setting!


But I have to agree with those who say that this inconsistency with the personal shield really wasn't necessary, and that a bit more research in only one older episode could have helped a lot. Gravelgerdie took the words right out of my mouth:

I was like *WHAT* on the slow moving impacts explanation. Because if thats the case, then Rodney would of been wet when he dumped the coffee on himself in the episode or "Hide and Seek". So the explanation that the creators were trying to give for the episode Irresponsible are LAME and just idiotic. Full ACK.

Also, wouldn't Rodney have been able to eat if the "slow moving impact" theory was right? Or wouldn't Rodney or someone else have been able to remove the turtle brooch if it was only done very slowly?


shots of John's crotchSo you noticed that too? I honestly thought that I'm not that shallow, but hey, the way he was sitting there - I just had to stare. O_o
*feels incredibly shallow now but doesn't really care either*

Is that kind of, ehh, 'position' in the scripts? Because I heard/saw it happened before. And somehow I doubt JF does that on purpose.... ;) :D

Bye, A.

Alipeeps
December 5th, 2006, 02:06 PM
Oh man, I'm so scared to watch this episode now. :D

Don't let others' opinions colour you before you see the ep. I quite enjoyed the ep. It wasn't the best by far but it was okay and some elements were great. I feel it could have been handled better but such is life...

Watch the ep yourself and make up your own mind. :)

techjunkie
December 5th, 2006, 02:16 PM
Sorry admins - must post how I feel. Shutting down the thread seems a little like hiding that fact that Mom & Dad hide your mutated younger brother under the stairs. OMG... this was SUCH a bad episode...

This poor show is *SO* doomed. http://i66.photobucket.com/albums/h280/Schumpeter/smilies/gros3d119.gif

Sweet jumpin-marvel-super-spiders! This episode was like... the best... evaaaar!

*Inner voice, must struggle to not let out inner voice. Peoples jobs; the very notion of a Stargate series hangs in the balance...MUST CONTROLLLL...*

Note to readers: this is a vent. Not a revue. Don't hate the haters.
This was literally the worst episode of SG-A. Its embarrassingly bad. Plot holes that my 5 year old recognized and said "that's stupid". Seriously, when a 5 year old can recognize a plot hole (1.) I let him watch too much TV, and (2.) Stargate Atlantis has sadly come to a creative end, (or 3 - he's way more smarter than his dad, who just cringed).

Bring back a major villain to kill in a western style shoot-off? Sweet J3sus, the originality of the writers rule! Last week, you started back down the path to good story telling. This week, you sweep that effort away and take a running leap backwards to jump the proverbial shark.

Yeah, I said it. Jumped the shark with distance to spare.

This was not a 'fun episode' or a 'funny episode'. Lucias is NOT Harry Mudd. Mind you the writers are not even on par with the old Star Trek - which is incredibly sad considering the material they get to work with.

The funny thing was - this was the first Atlantis (nee Stargate) episode we channel surfed through. That's right - we started watching something else. Reruns of Heroes was more interesting to watch.

One suggestion. Shoot Lucias in the chest, and give Koyla (whatever) the ancient shield device. Make him a tougher. Yeah, that's the ticket.

Tech Junkie.

Major Tyler
December 5th, 2006, 02:21 PM
Discussing downloading IN ANY CAPACITY is not allowed on GateWorld...this includes begging for PM'ed download links and hoping someone responds before we delete their post.

If you want to find illegal download links, GateWorld is not the place for you.

Willow'sCat
December 5th, 2006, 02:23 PM
so dose Koyla die?? and how dose sheppard find his team?? and why would you give it 2/10 tbh not being horrible. you should be greatfull that stargate atlantis is showing in canada when other places in the world dont get it. and they have to buy the DVD's
Yes he dies... well as much as anyone dies in scifi, 2/10 because it was boring...boring in that nothing really happened of interest to this viewer :P and I live in Australia so don't talk to me about having to wait to see SGA on TV. :cool: :rolleyes:

Look having enjoyed Echoes and not just because of McKay, I found this episode to be a total waste of time, filler doesn't have to mean boring but in this we got boring, lame and a half hearted attempt at humour. It is a pity, as this will be remembered as the ep that Koyla died... it should have been better, so much better. Oh but apparently it was written by Joe M? Oh dear... I like Joe M but wow this is getting bad.

Also I will say all the actors even what's his name were good, Joe Flanigan did the best with a very bad script, I liked the way he was kinda smirking at Rodney over his hero love of Batman and it was at least nice to hear someone having a problem with the women massaging what's his names feet. :S

Ah well... is Sunday next?

tofuchef
December 5th, 2006, 02:30 PM
last time they introduce lucius.. it was such a dumb episode.. i turned it off not even half way through.. it just pissed me off really bad.. and now this one.. ridiculous..

M&M have really dumb ideas.. wasting production money.. and wasting an episode for a season.. and our time.

what makes them think this is a good idea!?

yes i agree binder should be full time.. i honestly like the episodes he written so far.. though not alot.. but they are always interesting right from the start..

Alipeeps
December 5th, 2006, 02:42 PM
I honestly didn't mind this ep - it was by no means awful though I agree definitely not one of the best. It is an utter shame that they didn't do more with the Sheppard/Kolya thing, after all the wonderful build up of CG, but honestly, I didn't have high hopes for that anyway - right from the start the inclusion of Lucius in this ep told me the focus was gonna be on comedy rather than the truly dark, dramatic aspects of Kolya and Sheppard.

I actually really quite liked Irresistible and found Lucius a good character in that context - that ep started out funny and his character buffoonish etc but it progressively got darker and we saw quite how manipulative and evil Lucius was. In this ep, we didn't have that darker undertone and Lucius was more 2-dimensional - no real depth to him and more irritating than anything. I also felt the ep focused too much on him - I was about ready to smack him one myself when he was prattling to Sheppard with his ideas for an action plan - and, as I said, I previously didn't mind the character!

I would have loved to have seen more dramatic repercussions to the events of CG and better use made of Kolya but there was stll much to enjoy in this ep and I certainly don't hate it. I just kinda wish they'd made it just a Lucius comedy ep and let Ken C write an entirely separate ep wrapping up the Sheppard/Kolya arc. I don't think the two storylines gelled.

Arlessiar
December 5th, 2006, 02:44 PM
The funny thing was - this was the first Atlantis (nee Stargate) episode we channel surfed through. That's right - we started watching something else. For me it was the very first time that I closed my eyes during an ep, that I didn't care if I missed a second, that I actually wished that it was over soon. I never felt like this when watching SGA because I love this show so much. I even watched "The Tower" with more interest, and this was my least favourite episode so far. :S

It is a pity, as this will be remembered as the ep that Koyla died... it should have been better, so much better. I'm still quite dissapointed that this was the "Kolya dies" ep. He was such a great villain, he deserved a better death ep. An ep with a different mood and atmosphere, and ep that focusses on him, with an end that really has an emotional impact on the viewer, even though Kolya was the bad guy. He was important, he should have had a more important end.


Ah well... is Sunday next? I'm so looking forward to this ep!!! :)

Bye, A.

Luz
December 5th, 2006, 02:47 PM
I'm still quite dissapointed that this was the "Kolya dies" ep. He was such a great villain, he deserved a better death ep. An ep with a different mood and atmosphere, and ep that focusses on him, with an end that really has an emotional impact on the viewer, even though Kolya was the bad guy. He was important, he should have had a more important end.

I feel robbed, he deserved better, what they did with his final episode it's unforgivable. :mad:

Klenotka
December 5th, 2006, 02:58 PM
And the worst thing is that he had to be killed in this episode and that Robert Davi has returned bc of probably the worst episode ever. :(

You know, after I read it here, I didn´t expect anything. Maybe some Irrisestible 2 but I was dissapointed anyway. Usually, wait nothing, helps. I didn´t expect anything from Echoes and it was so great episode...

Is it next week already? I am looking forward to Sunday, which wrote Martin Gero. He understands to characters in SGA and he can write for them...

xfkirsten
December 5th, 2006, 03:00 PM
Add me to the list of people who were, if nothing else, entertained by the episode. I didn't think it was half bad. Certainly not the best, but it wasn't awful or anything. It was definitely filler, but it was entertaining filler. And unlike "Irresistible," it was pretty clear to me this time that the episode was more tongue-in-cheek - no more of that "am I supposed to take this seriously?" confusion. :p

-Loved the western theme that went through the episode - the saloon girls, the "riders" from out of town coming in an threatening, the town heroes, the showdown at high noon...

-Some hilarious dialogue! I loved the scene at the beginning where the team discussed their heroes. It's the little character bits like that that I really get into! Loved Ronon's response, too. ("He was a funny guy, too.") And Rodney trying to dig out of the cell? Priceless!

-My only major complaint (aside from some technological continuity errors, but I can more or less forget about those) is that Kolya was killed so quickly. For a guy who's been a thorn in the Lanteans' side since season one, that was one quick little death scene. Personally, I was miffed that he died at all (hands-down, he's been my favorite villain), but that it was just a quick shot was even more disappointing. I would have even been happier if the confrontation between Shep and Kolya had been drawn out more, but it didn't even last 30 seconds! :( And it really didn't look like there was any way he could have survived - if he did, there's going to have to be some serious explaining.

raiyen
December 5th, 2006, 03:04 PM
Maybe we need a Save Ken Petition started up (joking) :D :D
and Martin Gero, and Carl Binder. From the con reports, JF mentioned that he moved his family back to California. Does he know something about season 4 that we don't? He obviously knew ahead of time that Brad and Robert was going to pass the show to Mullie & Mallozi.

the dancer of spaz
December 5th, 2006, 03:07 PM
Question!

Mullie and Mallozzi won't be EPing AND head writing, will they? In general, it doesn't seem like a great idea to have the only EPs play the only head writers as well... unless, of course, you're looking to save some money. :rolleyes:

smushybird
December 5th, 2006, 03:09 PM
OK other then killing Koyla

Aw damn. :( Kolya was my favorite Atlantis baddie. He was far more interesting than the wraith. I liked his adversarial games with Sheppard and McKay. He was a worthy opponent and had the potential to grow into a stronger and more long term threat. What a waste.

I think it was a mistake to kill him off (assuming they did) and it sounds like the way they did it was more of a whimper than a bang. What a shame. If you're going to kill off a cool villain, it should be in a smart, satisfying way--a way that suits the gravity of the threat Kolya always imposed.

And Kolya was a genuine threat, a threat to be respected, and not perfunctorily finished off as an afterthought in another mindlessly frothy Lucius episode. That seems like poor storytelling, to me.

SGAFan
December 5th, 2006, 03:14 PM
Everything about the use of that shield and the disregard for what had been established bothered me. And I appreciate the explanation, I do. But I suppose what I was looking for was some sort of explanation that they'd learned more about the shield or something along those lines, rather than just ignoring what we learned in H&S.

And, that's the last I'll say on the matter.:p

And, yes, as a long time viewer, I do expect some continuity.:cool:

ITA. Instantly, I thought of H&S when Lucius was explaining the shield (when I first saw it on him I was "OMG! he has the gene!") then the explanation left me scratching my head. One of the reasons I've watched stargate in general (and Atlantis devotedly from the beginning) was because I really thought care was paid to detail. Plot holes happen but come on! You could fly a Gould Mothership through this one!

Sorry, I have to agree that the slow moving object thing doesn't work b/c of the coffee in H&S (heck even Shep's hand when he tried to grab it, or Rodney's hand for that matter) and what about the imprinting on the wearer? The shield wouldn't work for Shep in H&S it was established that the sheilds imprinted. The only explanation that would've fit established canon was that Lucius had the gene, and activated it himself. As for the water dunking. *shrugs* got me. I always wondered how Rodney managed to breathe through the shield in H&S. ;)



oh yay *yawn*

In RE: to M & M becoming the EPs on SGA. Sorry, I have nothing against them personally, but if the recent scripts including *wince*The Tower*wince* are any indication, I'm not filled with a lot of optomism. I'm a devoted SGA fan and will watch and hope. The only good I could see coming from this is RC having the time to write and direct more eps. He, KC and CB should be doing the SGA work. ;)


LOL, I have to laugh otherwise I might cry.
*wishes Binder would write full time, hey it might come true ;)*

ITA!

Luz
December 5th, 2006, 03:18 PM
I think it was a mistake to kill him off (assuming they did) and it sounds like the way they did it was more of a whimper than a bang. What a shame. If you're going to kill off a cool villain, it should be in a smart, satisfying way--a way that suits the gravity of the threat Kolya always imposed.

It would have been less frustrating to have Sheppard shoot him by the end of CG, when Sheppard didn't kill him there I thought it was to use Kolya's greatness in some other episode, not to do this travesty.

I just can't wrap my mind around this, who thought it would be a good idea to put Kolya on an episode with that scumbag Lucius?.

Buba uognarf
December 5th, 2006, 03:22 PM
i'm getting a bad vibe from this episode:D

Alipeeps
December 5th, 2006, 03:23 PM
Question!

Mullie and Mallozzi won't be EPing AND head writing, will they? In general, it doesn't seem like a great idea to have the only EPs play the only head writers as well... unless, of course, you're looking to save some money. :rolleyes:

Well I guess they've got to find the extra money for Amanda Tapping's paycheck from somewhere... :rolleyes:

Alipeeps
December 5th, 2006, 03:27 PM
It would have been less frustrating to have Sheppard shoot him by the end of CG, when Sheppard didn't kill him there I thought it was to use Kolya's greatness in some other episode, not to do this transvestite.

I just can't wrap my mind around this, who thought it would be a good idea to put Kolya on an episode with that scumbag Lucius?.

I'm sorry... I shouldn't... but I really can't help myself... Please tell me that you meant to say travesty and not that one of the village wenches was a man in drag or something? ;) :D

I'm sorry, I shouldn't tease - your English is better than most native-speakers.. but I am a sad language-fan nitpicker who can't help but find these things amusing...

*slopes back off to the corner, giggling to herself in a slightly insane manner*

Luz
December 5th, 2006, 03:29 PM
I'm sorry... I shouldn't... but I really can't help myself... Please tell me that you meant to say travesty and not that one of the village wenches was a man in drag or something? ;) :D

Yeah, travesty, I'm so pissed I didn't realize my mistake. I was thinking more along the lines of that piece of S***, but was trying to use a word that wouldn't get filtered.

lily
December 5th, 2006, 03:33 PM
First of all, Ken, I'm so sorry to hear your involvement with the show will be minimal at best in season 4. As others have said, you have a great understandment of the characters. Common Ground was awesome, and I was so looking forward to a possible sequel in season 4, as well as any other episode you could've written. Hope it's not too late, and our posts can make TPTB change their minds ;)

The Kolya/Sheppard dynamic, especially after the Common Ground events, shouldn't have been mixed with Lucius in a comedic episode. It should've been a dark and dramatic episode, not a campy one.


And as for the question of why Lucious was wet when dunked in the barrel (or how he was able to be dunked in a barrel at all...) -- I asked this same question during a script meeting -- and Rob C (patiently) explained that for the shield to work, it had to react to kinetic energy. So bullets, falling bricks, even punches and kicks all register -- but anything moving at low speeds, like being held underwater - would have no effect. (and I'm sure if you really nitpick you can find fault with this definition-- but there has to be at least a small degree of suspension of disbelief when it comes to sci-fi, yes?)

I believe Rob C referenced an episode of SG-1 where they got past a personal shield by, very slowly and methodically, inserting a dagger through it, and stabbing the person. So there you go...you learn something new about pseudo-science everyday.

By the way -- I was the guy in the room that always had a million questions about how everything worked. And between Brad and Paul, they had an answer for everything. They're both walking tech-clopedias.

Ken C

Ken C


As others pointed out, and with all due respect, Hide and Seek was the only episode in Atlantis dealing with personal shields. Watching it before writing another episode that deals with that technology should've been a must.


To be fair to Joe and Paul --

I have to say that the script for "Irresponsible" was without a doubt the funniest I had read of the entire season. Seriously -- I was on the floor more than once. I loved this script. But, as with all productions, there are miscommunications along the way, and sometimes -- through nobody's fault - the tone and nuance doesn't always get translated to the screen.

I'll give you one example. This was meant to take place in more of a western kind of town. Thus the high noon-inspired finale. But when it came time to find a location we found ourselves settling for more of a dutch village. It didn't really have the same sense of gravitas -- but that couldn't be helped.

There were many more little instances of this that went on -- and it's unfortunate, because if the original production script had been fully realized on screen, I think you would all be jumping for joy that J&P were spearheading the fourth season of SGA. It was that good!

And I say this unbiased and unsolicited -- as my involvement with season four will likely be minimal to non-existant, due to the cancellation of SG-1.

Ken C


I understand that not everything in a script translates well to the screen. However I think the main problem was there in the script itself: it was a comedic episode from the start. Sorry, but I don't want to see sitcom-like / campy episodes in Atlantis.

No offense intended to Mallozzi and Mullie, but I think it's evident from fan posts throughout the Internet that this kind of "funny" episodes in recent years haven't been well received by the fans.

We've been told lots of times that The Powers That Be listen to the fans. Well, anyone can go to this and a million of other forums and mailing lists and read that quite often comedic episodes like this one are among the least favorite episodes among the Atlantis fans. After all the negative comments about episodes like "The Tower", I don't understand how they could think writing another campy episode was a good idea.

I love the show, and so far I had very little to complain about season 3. I think it's the best season so far, but after watching Irresponsible, I felt the need to get this out of my chest.

My two cents? If I could say something to The Powers That Be? Please, listen to the feedback from the fans given in letters, conventions and forums like this one. See what episodes are in general regarded as some of the best, see what episodes are consistently regarded as the worst. Many MANY fans post well-thought messages, not just sentences such as "this sucks". Please, read and think about what fans don't like and why.

No more campy episodes in Atlantis. Please.

And no more Lucius Lavin either. Can't imagine how anyone would think that it was a good idea to make him recurring. Hope we never see that character again.

watcher652
December 5th, 2006, 03:38 PM
I just can't wrap my mind around this, who thought it would be a good idea to put Kolya on an episode with that scumbag Lucius?.

I have the same question.

I don't think Kolya deserved an important end. Yes, in the world of fiction, maybe he did. It certainly would have been satisfying, in a way. But I think he deserved the death of the man he became, just looking for a few guns in his war against his fellow Genii. No gloating, no lingering, no final smirk. Just dead.

He did deserve to die in his own episode, though. Was there an excess of guest stars and not enough scripts?

I gotta say Joe Flanigan was great with what he had to work with, which was pretty much nothing.

SGAFan
December 5th, 2006, 03:53 PM
No more campy episodes in Atlantis. Please.

And no more Lucius Lavin either. Can't imagine how anyone would think that it was a good idea to make him recurring. Hope we never see that character again.

Speaking of well thought out posts. ;) Sorry to truncate that but its easier on the eyes to read with minimal quote space :)

It does amaze me that after the reaction all over the internet to The Tower *shudders* that the possiblity of exploring that avenue would even be considered again for SGA. I didn't think Irresponsible (or even Irresitible) were as bad as The Tower (THANK GOD) but when asked to pick the least favorite show if the first half of season 3, I chose Irresistible. That formula just doesn't work for SGA. I wasn't even fond of that kind of story on SG1 really, but I think SG1 had a better chance of pulling off an ep like that than SGA. (which gets back to something I've always maintained: SG1 and SGA may share the same universe but are VERY different shows!)

Unlike The Tower, I though Irresponsible had its good moments (Shep's initial reaction to seeing Kolya for one thing) and some pretty hilarious ones too. But overall that type of story just doesnt, IMHO, work well for SGA. I would've thought someone would've noticed, given that TPTB seem to listen and "hear" the fans. (at least sometimes...)

With all due respect to M & M, I would've thought the reaction that followed the Tower would've drove home the point.

the fans here on gateworld are amongst some of the most devoted Stargate fans you will find anywhere. Those kind of fans are your bread and butter and the lifeblood of the show. Frankly and with all due respect to TPTB, these are the people you should be listening to.

Willow'sCat
December 5th, 2006, 03:56 PM
I don't think Kolya deserved an important end.You see for this viewer it was about Sheppard not Koyla... ;) Sheppard deserved a better ending, resolution. Nothing would ever live up to the hype but at least they could have tried. It just seems so throw away, such a waste.

I gotta say Joe Flanigan was great with what he had to work with, which was pretty much nothing.He really was, did a great job...at least that was something to watch. That and McKay making his escape armed only with a spoon. :p

xfkirsten
December 5th, 2006, 04:01 PM
That and McKay making his escape armed only with a spoon. :p

That actually had to be one of the highlights of the episode for me. It was just so... McKay. :p

SGAFan
December 5th, 2006, 04:01 PM
:lol: Yes, the spoon was amusing...

as was the snark "Jokes? and entrails flying" ROFL

Alipeeps
December 5th, 2006, 04:24 PM
That actually had to be one of the highlights of the episode for me. It was just so... McKay. :p

Even better than that, "See if you can find another spoon. With someone helping this'll go twice as fast.." :lol:

Honestly, McKay... for a genius, sometimes.... :D

P.S. Anyone else get the feeling McKay has watched the Shawshank Redemption one too many times? :D

ToasterOnFire
December 5th, 2006, 04:41 PM
Don't let others' opinions colour you before you see the ep. I quite enjoyed the ep. It wasn't the best by far but it was okay and some elements were great. I feel it could have been handled better but such is life...

Watch the ep yourself and make up your own mind. :)
Thanks for your advice, I'm well aware that I could end up liking the ep when the majority of posters so far hated it. It's extremely unlikely and would be a 180 from the trend I've had with Atlantis so far, but hey.

SGAFan
December 5th, 2006, 04:45 PM
well, I for one never said I hated it, there were just a lot of elements I had problems with, and it certainly isn't one of my favorites ;)

Alipeeps
December 5th, 2006, 04:53 PM
Thanks for your advice, I'm well aware that I could end up liking the ep when the majority of posters so far hated it. It's extremely unlikely and would be a 180 from the trend I've had with Atlantis so far, but hey.

Sorry, didn't mean to come across as patronising or telling you what to do - just was worried you were getting seriously put off the ep by all the negative comments on it. :)

An-Alteran
December 5th, 2006, 05:02 PM
Ken_is_here:

So bullets, falling bricks, even punches and kicks all register -- but anything moving at low speeds, like being held underwater - would have no effect. (and I'm sure if you really nitpick you can find fault with this definition-- but there has to be at least a small degree of suspension of disbelief when it comes to sci-fi, yes?)
Yes, as long as the opposite wasn't made clear in another episode.


I believe Rob C referenced an episode of SG-1 where they got past a personal shield by, very slowly and methodically, inserting a dagger through it, and stabbing the person.
That was a goa'uld shield.
The Ancient shield of similar design to Luciasus blocked a cup of coffee from the hand of the person wearing the shield.
Personally I can live with it.
It is just annoying.:P



By the way -- I was the guy in the room that always had a million questions about how everything worked. And between Brad and Paul, they had an answer for everything. They're both walking tech-clopedias.

Ken C
I am a realist and a very dedicated viewer:
I solemly ask that I be mentioned to the producers as a possible free volunter consultant on future ideas to prevent fan disatisfaction!:cameron:

Anyway: I have an off topic question for you:
In Return Part II the an Ancient Drone weapon hit the Puddle Jumpers shield at a very light angle, barely hitting the shield, but it then reacted with the shield and bounced off.
Most fans were under the imprecion that Drones penetrate shields by design.
Why did it bounce off the Ancient shield when they have never been deflected by shields in other sequences?
They have never been seen even reacting with shields before?
Was it an oversight by the CGI?
Did the Drone's angle of hitting the shield cause it not to sccesfully penetrate the shield?

Lizabeth
December 5th, 2006, 05:08 PM
I've been reading this thread and I have a request. Can we stop with all the doom and gloom? Let's not create self-fulfilling prophecies here. If you didn't like the episode, discuss it, you don't have to pretend it was any better than you thought. But don't forecast doom for the whole show based on low quality from one, or even just a couple episodes. Look at all the other fantastic episodes season 3 has brought us! It has been the best season yet. I, for one, am hoping to see Atlantis continue on for an extended length of time. Call me an optimist, but I think the shows a lot more likely to continue if the fans obviously want it to continue instead of rave about how the show is going down the drain and doomed to fail. Talk about what you'd like to see, give your disappointment an up twist so whoever runs this thing knows, we want high quality SGA to continue long into the future!

Ltcolshepjumper
December 5th, 2006, 05:17 PM
[QUOTE=ken_is_here;6068881]

Yes, as long as the opposite wasn't made clear in another episode.


That was a goa'uld shield.
The Ancient shield of similar design to Luciasus blocked a cup of coffee from the hand of the person wearing the shield.
Personally I can live with it.
It is just annoying.:P


I am a realist and a very dedicated viewer:
I solemly ask that I be mentioned to the producers as a possible free volunter consultant on future ideas to prevent fan disatisfaction!:cameron:

Anyway: I have an off topic question for you:
In Return Part II the an Ancient Drone weapon hit the Puddle Jumpers shield at a very light angle, barely hitting the shield, but it then reacted with the shield and bounced off.
Most fans were under the imprecion that Drones penetrate shields by design.
Why did it bounce off the Ancient shield when they have never been deflected by shields in other sequences?
They have never been seen even reacting with shields before?
Was it an oversight by the CGI?
Did the Drone's angle of hitting the shield cause it not to sccesfully penetrate the shield?

This is discussed in another thread http://forum.gateworld.net/showthread.php?t=37814

Mitchell82
December 5th, 2006, 05:35 PM
I've been reading this thread and I have a request. Can we stop with all the doom and gloom? Let's not create self-fulfilling prophecies here. If you didn't like the episode, discuss it, you don't have to pretend it was any better than you thought. But don't forecast doom for the whole show based on low quality from one, or even just a couple episodes. Look at all the other fantastic episodes season 3 has brought us! It has been the best season yet. I, for one, am hoping to see Atlantis continue on for an extended length of time. Call me an optimist, but I think the shows a lot more likely to continue if the fans obviously want it to continue instead of rave about how the show is going down the drain and doomed to fail. Talk about what you'd like to see, give your disappointment an up twist so whoever runs this thing knows, we want high quality SGA to continue long into the future!

Great post agree 100%!

prion
December 5th, 2006, 05:46 PM
IRRESPONSIBLE

Might well be what the writers were for penning this episode.

The beginning teaser was amusing – establishing some background stuff on our guys – who their heroes were – Sheppard had Evil Knievel, Rodney’s hero was Batman while Ronon had a real person (first commander) and sorry, couldn’t decipher McKay’s hero. Alas, since Teyla asked, we didn’t find out if she had one, but I wouldn’t doubt it was a real person.

The episode immediately tanked as soon as Lucius was revealed as the ‘superhero.’ I’m sorry, but Lucius was an amoral piece of slug slime for his behavior in “Irresistible.” You can’t forgive a guy for having drugged up an entire community, etc. Why didn’t his wives just kill him once they got their senses back? Talk about suspending reality. Unctuous, smarmy, etc. etc. I wouldn’t shed a tear if this guy got nailed by a wraith. In fact, I’d cheer!

And Sheppard’s team just sits around and tolerates this guy? After what he did to them? After nearly costing them their lives and the safety of Atlantis? I missed the episode where they forgave him for such horrid behavior.

I suppose the male members of the audience will be amused by watching what is going on behind Sheppard as he sat listening to Lucius outside (i.e. cleavage galore of buxom wenches. Aieeee).

You know, Rodney’s look of disgust during Lucius’ talk was pretty appropriate though.

Okay, Lucius admits to having perused a lot of stuff – hello? Security risk??? Bangs head on keyboard. They didn’t think that he might have done this while he’d drugged up the base??

Oh come on, and the team is excusing his behavior and think he’s turned over a new leaf when all his behavior indicates he hasn’t and never will?

T here was a lot of well, obvious plotting – the fake attack on the village, the rescue. Even Sheppard had that figured out quickly. I did like how McKay turned around and nearly got run over by Ronon as the team left the village.

Snort, Cowan’s personal guards hiring themselves as rent-a-thugs. Pretty ironic.

Okay, I liked how Sheppard went for petty revenge and dragged back the broken-wrist thug to spill the beans about the fake attack, but sigh, that village is full of idiots, thinking Lucius is such hot stuff.
Some good dialogue:

Lucius: “So go ahead, shoot him.’
Sheppard: (readies gun) “Good idea.”

When asked why they didn’t rescue the village before…
Teyla: We were concerned for the safety of the village
Ronon: Now we don’t care.

Kolya…. It’s great to see him again, but…. He was really wasted in this episode because of Lucius. I would have killed to have seen a nice gritty cat and mouse episode between him and Kolya, the team really being threatened (it was done so dryly here one could nearly yawn in response). While there was some good tension in the final scene between Kolya and Shep, you KNEW who was gonna drop. Yeah, I did want a gritty, cat-and-mouse chase episode. What a waste L

Meanwhile, while Sheppard has not always made brilliant decisions (hence, his being in the Pegasus Galaxy in the first place). Eegads, I’m sorry, but the first tactical maneuver an enemy does is block your means of escape. I missed the scene where Sheppard got bonked on the head, forgot basic TV plots, and went all the way out to the gate to go ‘oh darn, it’s guarded. Shucks.’ ARGH!!!!

And the segment of Sheppard and Lucius heading back to the village, on the very exposed path, arguing could probably be heard a mile away. ARGH AGAIN!

The townspeople were, um, well, village idiots. I mean, at least Lucius’ other village was drugged. What’s their excuse for such incredible stupidity? It’s not like they’re watching TV 24/7 and burning out their brain cells? Inbreeding? What??

Lucius is slime. He was quite ready to abandon his own village to Kolya and his soldiers, didn’t give a rat’s ass about Shep’s team (and hello? Shep was right next to him when he admitted it).

Best thing about this episode: it’s over.

Worst thing: The writers could be idiotic and think Lucius is a great character to bring back.

Overall, it was more forgettable than anything else, and I can’t summon the energy to waste to hate it as it had a few good bit, but that’ss really sad as I expect better of SGA, but then I don’t expect a lot out of Mallozzi & Mullie after they penned “The Tower” and some other more forgettable SG1 episodes.

Missed opportunities: Kolya tortured Sheppard, probably put him through the worst experience of his life and there’s not a single mention of why Sheppard is keen on shooting him. Kolya’s demise should have been handled in its own episode (yeah, I’m beating a dead horse, I know). I would have at least expected Teyla to say it’s not the time to seek revenge and risk the villagers’ lives.

While this episode had some fun moments, the rest was predestrian, mind-boggling in that the team didn’t turn an about-face and leave immediately upon seeing Lucius (yeah, yeah, they wanted to check for the drug first but still they could have left -

Can we NOT have this character ever appear again? Can Mallozzi and Mullie realize that SGA viewers aren’t all sitcom viewers? Enough with the self-centered campy humor with obnoxious characters. Can we have scripts that make our heroes – Shep’s team – look smarter than the average low-watt appliance bulb??

Sigh.

ken_is_here
December 5th, 2006, 05:54 PM
I am so not the guy to be answering technical questions. I can't even get my toaster to brown both sides of the bread equally.

prion
December 5th, 2006, 05:57 PM
To be fair to Joe and Paul --

I have to say that the script for "Irresponsible" was without a doubt the funniest I had read of the entire season. Seriously -- I was on the floor more than once. I loved this script. But, as with all productions, there are miscommunications along the way, and sometimes -- through nobody's fault - the tone and nuance doesn't always get translated to the screen.

I'll give you one example. This was meant to take place in more of a western kind of town. Thus the high noon-inspired finale. But when it came time to find a location we found ourselves settling for more of a dutch village. It didn't really have the same sense of gravitas -- but that couldn't be helped.

There were many more little instances of this that went on -- and it's unfortunate, because if the original production script had been fully realized on screen, I think you would all be jumping for joy that J&P were spearheading the fourth season of SGA. It was that good!

And I say this unbiased and unsolicited -- as my involvement with season four will likely be minimal to non-existant, due to the cancellation of SG-1.

Ken C

Well, that really sucks (to be blunt). Your episode was one of favs of all of SGA, and "Irresistible" is probably my least favorite.

And to be honest....

Unfortunately, many of us were happy M&M weren't on SGA full time - I happen to like Carl Binder's work a lot more than M&M. I saw enough revamped 'homages' (cough cough, rewritten movies) in the latter season of SG1 to not want those particular writers putzing about on the SGA show.

First Paul McGillion is gone, now we're losing good writers to get... sigh. I want more episodes like "Common Ground" and "Echoes," not this irresponsible stuff. :(

prion
December 5th, 2006, 05:59 PM
I am so not the guy to be answering technical questions. I can't even get my toaster to brown both sides of the bread equally.

That doesn't sound like a good toaster ;) Sounds like you stole the yucky one we have at work. Takes five minutes to toast a bagel!

gopher65
December 5th, 2006, 05:59 PM
I never.... I never thought I would witness a worse writing team than Berman&Bragga. This episode makes the last episode of Enterprise look like a masterpiece.

Worst.
Writers.
Ever.

PG15
December 5th, 2006, 06:01 PM
There wouldn't be any. ;)

EDIT: to jenks.

Alipeeps
December 5th, 2006, 06:02 PM
I am so not the guy to be answering technical questions. I can't even get my toaster to brown both sides of the bread equally.

Bless you! :D I struggle to get my toaster to find a happy medium between warm bread and burnt! :lol:

Sooooo... while you're here... rather OT for this thread... can you give us any hints on your upcoming Season 3 eps? E.g. The Ark? *smiles winsomely* :D

Alipeeps
December 5th, 2006, 06:03 PM
Is there anyone here who has seen it but isn't from Canada? ;)

What do you think? And please consider very carefully what you post next before you go breaking any GW rules.... :)

gravelgerdie
December 5th, 2006, 06:06 PM
I am so not the guy to be answering technical questions. I can't even get my toaster to brown both sides of the bread equally.

I feel your pain on the toast:D

Alipeeps
December 5th, 2006, 06:07 PM
I just noticed something interesting that escaped my notice on first viewing of Irresponsible (yes, I am watching it again :D):

The reason why Sheppard was so calm about the attack on the village and not bothered about letting the "bandits" disarm them etc....

http://i49.photobucket.com/albums/f260/Alipeeps/SGA/Season%203/Irresponsible/emptybarrel.jpg

He saw that the chambers of the gun pointed at him were empty. He knew right then that the weapons weren't loaded and that this was all a scam...

Apols if I'm being utterly thick and everyone else got that straight away! :D

HyperCaz
December 5th, 2006, 06:15 PM
that was awful!! why did I watch that?! Call me fickle, but I wanted Kolya to go out in style. Not in some Lucius Sequel episode...I liked the first one but this was woeful. There were a couple of good things...

I liked seeing a personal shield again, despite the many accompanying plot holes. The last few moments of the episode...only time I laughed and with good reason. :) Batman!! Hee. Rodney is obviously a DC comics boy. And Caz never says no to her thunk Beckett being all strong against bad guys.

Wasted Kolya and Shep interaction, considering Common Ground. Bah.

Overall very ho-hum and boring, not to mention painful to watch.

ToasterOnFire
December 5th, 2006, 06:29 PM
Sorry, didn't mean to come across as patronising or telling you what to do - just was worried you were getting seriously put off the ep by all the negative comments on it. :)
No worries, I figure the best way to deal with this episode is mock it in advance and you try to counter me with LOGIC??!! For shame!! :D ;)


I am so not the guy to be answering technical questions. I can't even get my toaster to brown both sides of the bread equally.
I'll be glad to lend you mine, but I don't think you'll like the results. :)

ShoDar
December 5th, 2006, 06:44 PM
Sorry! I'm behind and quoting stuff from pages back!


To be fair to Joe and Paul --
I'll give you one example. This was meant to take place in more of a western kind of town. Thus the high noon-inspired finale. But when it came time to find a location we found ourselves settling for more of a dutch village. It didn't really have the same sense of gravitas -- but that couldn't be helped.

Wow, the episode makes a lot more sense having read this. Thanks! I really didn't get any kind of western feel from it until the final "shootout" which seemed more of an out of place gag than part of the whole. But now that I think about it, the whole setup of Lucius' heroism fits with that.

I'm not sure it would have worked out anyway though. For one thing, westerns don't seem to have the depth required to properly deal with the Sheppard/Kolya dynamic. Granted, I'm really not a fan of westerns, but the episode was supposed to be funny, right? Sheppard and Kolya is like Obi Wan and Vader... funny doesn't seem to fit. Plus (and maybe this is a chick thing) Lucius isn't funny...he's just creepy.


Anyway, some enjoyable moments, including the bittersweet joy of Beckett with actual lines and rodney not saving the day (I love the guy, but the writers do get a little Mary-Sue with him on occasion) and Ronon being snarky, which I love because it validates all the episodes where he didn't really do or say anything but watching his body language you could tell that he's about as sarcastic as McKay, but not a great episode overall. Wow, I may not like westerns, but I do love my run on sentences :o

Oka
December 5th, 2006, 06:49 PM
What an awful episode. I don't even know where to begin, in fact - I'm not going to bother.

+ Kolya
+ All those hot busty chicks wearing traditional German outfits.

- Kolya getting killed like that
- Everything else

2/10. Waste of time.

kiwigater
December 5th, 2006, 06:49 PM
I've had to delete yet MORE illegal download talk - no matter how clever you think you're being - any post even remotely hinting at supplying illegal download links will be deleted, and the poster placed on moderation (which prevents PM-ing as well).
We will not have this site shut down because of downloading talk.

david2708
December 5th, 2006, 06:52 PM
To be fair to Joe and Paul --

I have to say that the script for "Irresponsible" was without a doubt the funniest I had read of the entire season. Seriously -- I was on the floor more than once. I loved this script. But, as with all productions, there are miscommunications along the way, and sometimes -- through nobody's fault - the tone and nuance doesn't always get translated to the screen.

I'll give you one example. This was meant to take place in more of a western kind of town. Thus the high noon-inspired finale. But when it came time to find a location we found ourselves settling for more of a dutch village. It didn't really have the same sense of gravitas -- but that couldn't be helped.

There were many more little instances of this that went on -- and it's unfortunate, because if the original production script had been fully realized on screen, I think you would all be jumping for joy that J&P were spearheading the fourth season of SGA. It was that good!

And I say this unbiased and unsolicited -- as my involvement with season four will likely be minimal to non-existant, due to the cancellation of SG-1.

Ken C
Their track record for years has been abysmal. What is the excuse for all the other crapola they have served up over the years.
One or two stuff ups can be excused but their substandard work has shown a clear pattern over the years.
Atlantis IS doomed if they are heading the show.

Alipeeps
December 5th, 2006, 07:17 PM
Heh. I've just had another minor revelation with regard to this ep - the big stand-off, "gun fight at the OK corral" scene near the end..... is a total homage to The Good, The Bad and The Ugly. Right down to the 3 characters (the good guy, the bad guy and the annoying, opportunistic criminal) and the way they are placed around the square and the way the camera zooms in on each of their faces.

It actually makes me wonder if this is actually the entire inspiration behind this ep - I can envisage M&M sitting in a room, chuckling and chortling and saying, "Wow, wouldn't it be cool if we had like a Western showdown between Kolya and Sheppard?" "Oh yeah, and you know what? We could stick Lucius in there too and it's be like a really cool spin on The Good, The Bad and The Ugly!" And then the story got kinda written backwards from that idea...

That thought actually really depresses me... *sigh*

Starxgate
December 5th, 2006, 07:21 PM
It wasnt that bad & I highly doubt that Kolya is dead

Spooks99
December 5th, 2006, 07:24 PM
Damn. I was really looking forward to this episode, too. I was, however, sadly disappointed. I really really REALLY wanted some Common Ground related angst from Sheppard AND the team--I mean, if my friend had been fed to a wraith by someone who had the kind of history Koyla does with the team...I would be pretty eager for revenge. I guess I should know better than to expect any actual continuity or resolution--after the Return Part 2, I gave up almost all hope that the writers would stop with that blasted "reset" button every episode. Honestly, this is their f-----g JOB! They can't be bothered to just watch the episodes themselves? I agree--we should beta the scripts for them. Or just let the better writers like Cupertino take over (really? no involvement in Season 4? why on earth not? CG was the best episode of the season, maybe the series!). :(

Alipeeps
December 5th, 2006, 07:26 PM
It wasnt that bad & I highly doubt that Kolya is dead

It wasn't that bad. But it also wasn't great. And I don't see how he can't be. Shot in the chest. Lying unmoving on the floor. People stood around. No-one made any attempt to resuscitate or help him. And the final scene took place a while later - after the village had had time to put a party together - and you'd think the team might have noticed if Kolya's body had upped and disappeared during the interval... one can assume they/the villagers had to remove the body in order to prepare for the party and someone probably would have mentioned it to Sheppard and co if the body wasn't quite dead yet! ;)

Starxgate
December 5th, 2006, 07:27 PM
While nothing from the past was mentioned but if you have seen all episodes the anger was there & you could tell that Kolya was just getting tired of running into the team & the team stopping his plans each time. I saw John was being just the bigger man then Kolya is when he did not just out right shoot him in the beginning.

nonniemous
December 5th, 2006, 07:29 PM
There were individual parts of this episode that worked well by themselves, most of which have already been mentioned. But the two "stories" did not mix well, at all. Maybe if Lucius had actually sold the team out in a fit of pique? Or if the team had come in and reacted as they *should* have, angrily and without backing down on what a creep he really was and the town then had sold them out to Kolya? Maybe. (But I don't think even the "western" setting could have made up for such dumb villagers. What, they've survived the Wraith this long because they're stupid and the Wraith prefer prey that has some spark and intelligence?)

I have to add my dismay to the absolute waste of Kolya's death in this episode--but I seem to be in the minority who felt he was also wasted in Common Ground, though I liked that episode overall. He was such a presence and such a great bad guy in Season 1; it was sad to see him reduced to making demands over a video feed to Weir and just standing around. Though Davi, as always, was fantastic in both episodes this season with what he had to work with. That little amused smirk on his face as he threatens death is perfect--he'd be far less scary if he did it all straightfaced.

Carson with things to say, Rodney with a spoon, Ronon with snark, and Teyla backing John down? Wonderful stuff. Same with the team standing in front of Rodney when Kolya's ready to shoot him. Also Kolya's gun misfiring. "Get this fixed." Good stuff.

As for Lucius, I liked "Irresistable" and was hoping that another episode with him in it would actually follow on the darker tone the end of that episode hinted at. (Lucius taunting John when the latter was in the cell was creepy--and a good way to acknowledge the yuckier aspects of that episode.) When I heard Kolya was involved, my hopes were even higher that we could get a good episode dealing with both issues. Kolya is a great tactician, and uses his weapons well. What kind of use could he have made of Lucius, with or without the potion? The possibilities, handled well and allowed to be dark as SGA can do so well, could have been endless. Played for comedy as they were? Wasted.

This won't be the worst episode ever (The Tower gets that privilege for my list) but it's not going to be anywhere near the top of the heap, either. (Top of the heap for all three seasons at this point is "Phantoms.")

ShoDar
December 5th, 2006, 07:56 PM
As for Lucius, I liked "Irresistable" and was hoping that another episode with him in it would actually follow on the darker tone the end of that episode hinted at. (Lucius taunting John when the latter was in the cell was creepy--and a good way to acknowledge the yuckier aspects of that episode.) When I heard Kolya was involved, my hopes were even higher that we could get a good episode dealing with both issues. Kolya is a great tactician, and uses his weapons well. What kind of use could he have made of Lucius, with or without the potion? The possibilities, handled well and allowed to be dark as SGA can do so well, could have been endless. Played for comedy as they were? Wasted.

I didn't like Irresistable, but I do think you've hit on what was wrong with this episode overall. Even if you accept the idea of Lucius being cheerful and funny at the beginning of Irresistable, by the end of that ep you have all these scenes with him and John which clearly set him up as this creepy bad guy. That they let him go was not really a good thing, IMO. But given that they did, pairing him with the arch-nemesis Kolya in an episode could have gotten really dark and interesting, both in terms of plot and character development. That they tried to make it funny doesn't make sense. And that they tried to make it funny and failed (for the most part...the only funny bits were when neither guest star were around) is just mind-boggling. It could have been interesting, but instead it's a forgetable filler.

smushybird
December 5th, 2006, 08:55 PM
Unlike The Tower, I though Irresponsible had its good moments (Shep's initial reaction to seeing Kolya for one thing) and some pretty hilarious ones too.

Other posters have remarked on that and now I'm curious. What was his reaction?



But overall that type of story just doesnt, IMHO, work well for SGA. I would've thought someone would've noticed, given that TPTB seem to listen and "hear" the fans. (at least sometimes...)

I thought they did until they decided to take Dr. Beckett away from us. :(

neoncrazy101
December 5th, 2006, 09:06 PM
didn't like it...the ending was cheesy...and frankly i hope we never see Lucious (sp) again!...good points is that Koyla is dead...finally..and just wondering did the city look a little fimilar? like from that episode of SG-1 when the city was in like a shield and the people were disappearing? i thought it looked like it a little bit. maybe it was just the colors

Starxgate
December 5th, 2006, 09:06 PM
What was his reaction?


http://img81.imageshack.us/img81/8003/1qb0.jpg

"Kolya"

ToasterOnFire
December 5th, 2006, 09:20 PM
Okay, here we go. :D

The Good

-Kolya is always a good addition to an ep, even though I agree with nonniemous in that he wasn't used to his full potential in Common Ground, nor here for that matter.

-Personal shields are always fun, and I like the mirrored Ronon/Grodin punching moment complete with Rodney's ignored protest.

-It was nice to see Teyla featured more prominently and I liked how she took charge when first meeting the villagers.

The Bad

-Lucius. After viewing Irresistable, I've decided that every ep with him will automatically start with a "bad" rating and go from there. Awful character and I don't care much for the acting either. Lucius had no business being in an ep with Kolya, their two personalities didn't mesh at all.

-Kolya again felt wasted in this ep and many of his earlier complexities seem gone. We saw no real development, just a single-minded desire to kill Shep. The showdown between Kolya and Shep was cheese and his death was trivial for such a villain. Waste, waste, waste. (Oh, and Kolya has to be dead. If he pops up again it means that the team were so stupid that they didn't verify that he was dead when his body was right there. I'd like to thing we've gotten away from the team doing mind-boggling stupid things.)

-A lot of the dialog was average to poor. Lucius's motivational speech to the townspeople was rather cheesy, especially the sudden burst of realization and grandstanding from busty wench #1.

-On that note, the costuming was particularly bad this ep and I'm quite fed up with the "busty wench" character.

-Elizabeth had maybe 3 lines, all at the beginning. It mirrored her presence in the Tower, another M&M ep. Carson had no real reason to be on the team and it felt like they added him just for the screentime.

-So all the guys get to talk about their heroes but Teyla doesn't? Oh I forgot, women must not have heroes. :S

-Lots of inconsistencies with the personal shield as mentioned upthread. And of course the device will fail right when it's needed the most, hello cliche.


I actually tolerated this ep better than Irresistable or Tower, but it was still one of the worst Atlantis eps so far IMO. I'm very frustrated to see 40+ minutes wasted on this stuff when there must be better stories to tell and so many Atlantis characters go neglected. Why have these kinds of eps at all when TPTB have shown that they can write much better eps like Echoes and Sateda?

Mitchell82
December 5th, 2006, 09:46 PM
It wasn't that bad. But it also wasn't great. And I don't see how he can't be. Shot in the chest. Lying unmoving on the floor. People stood around. No-one made any attempt to resuscitate or help him. And the final scene took place a while later - after the village had had time to put a party together - and you'd think the team might have noticed if Kolya's body had upped and disappeared during the interval... one can assume they/the villagers had to remove the body in order to prepare for the party and someone probably would have mentioned it to Sheppard and co if the body wasn't quite dead yet! ;)

I havent seen this yet but will in a few hours. I must admit alot of this talk is getting me down and it is oddly similar to the reaction to Irresistable. I really found no issue with Irresistable or the Tower for that matter. I will admit they arent record breaking awesome 10/10 episodes but I still give a 7 or 8 to both. I took both as what they were meant to be. Tower was meant for nothing more than to resuply Atlantis which was necesarry. Irresistable was meant to be light and enteretaining which I found it to be. From what I have read I see no reason why I won't enjoy this one either.

PG15
December 5th, 2006, 09:51 PM
Let's get the bad stuff out of the way: I. HATE. VILLAGERS!!!.

God, each and every one of them, as if they've all been brainwashed or are all related or something. The large breasted women should've just stayed as eye candy, really.

Also, what ken said. This episode would've been about a million times better if they had somehow found a western town set. You just can't get past the little gardens everywhere.

Now that that's off of my chest...this was a pretty good episode! :D Easily the funniest Atlantis has ever done; I laughed out loud a few dozen times! Great dialogue (again, except for the villagers stuff), especially from Lucius. I for one will glad to have him back...as long as he's not with villagers.

Robert Davi...still awesome. I doubt he's dead. Sure, we saw him getting shot, but the same thing happened in The Eye and look at how that turned out. I'm sure the Genii soldiers were let go and carried Kolya's body out of there and healed him or something, I don't know. I know I wouldn't be disappointed to see him again.

Now, I'm actually glad they had Kolya in this episode, and that is because he's there with Lucius. For once, you see 2 villains, that are villany for almost exactly the opposite reasons. Kolya (keep wanting to call him Davi) is cold, calculating, maniacal...while Lucius is slimy, bumbbling, and basically..."not cool". Still, it's good to see that not all bad guys are the Muahahaha kinds.

And the humor, oh man! Like I said, I laughed all over the place; from the Batman references, to Lucius's lame (as it was supposed to be that way) stories, to basically all of his mannerisms. And who can forget his "plans" on the way back to the village with Shep? I won't.

I really liked that last stand off (except for the setting). It was about time Shep got some revenge on Kolya. Although, I have to honest; a 15 minute Mega brawl would've been pretty cool :D

8/10

Mitchell82
December 5th, 2006, 09:56 PM
Let's get the bad stuff out of the way: I. HATE. VILLAGERS!!!.

God, each and every one of them, as if they've all been brainwashed or are all related or something. The large breasted women should've just stayed as eye candy, really.

Also, what ken said. This episode would've been about a million times better if they had somehow found a western town set. You just can't get past the little gardens everywhere.

Now that that's off of my chest...this was a pretty good episode! :D Easily the funniest Atlantis has ever done; I laughed out loud a few dozen times! Great dialogue (again, except for the villagers stuff), especially from Lucius. I for one will glad to have him back...as long as he's not with villagers.

Robert Davi...still awesome. I doubt he's dead. Sure, we saw him getting shot, but the same thing happened in The Eye and look at how that turned out. I'm sure the Genii soldiers were let go and carried Kolya's body out of there and healed him or something, I don't know. I know I wouldn't be disappointed to see him again.

Now, I'm actually glad they had Kolya in this episode, and that is because he's there with Lucius. For once, you see 2 villains, that are villany for almost exactly the opposite reasons. Kolya (keep wanting to call him Davi) is cold, calculating, maniacal...while Lucius is slimy, bumbbling, and basically..."not cool". Still, it's good to see that not all bad guys are the Muahahaha kinds.

And the humor, oh man! Like I said, I laughed all over the place; from the Batman references, to Lucius's lame (as it was supposed to be that way) stories, to basically all of his mannerisms. And who can forget his "plans" on the way back to the village with Shep? I won't.

I really liked that last stand off (except for the setting). It was about time Shep got some revenge on Kolya. Although, I have to honest; a 15 minute Mega brawl would've been pretty cool :D

8/10

Nice review and yeah a epic Shep/Koyla battle similar to the Neo/Smith battles would be cool.

PG15
December 5th, 2006, 10:01 PM
Nice review and yeah a epic Shep/Koyla battle similar to the Neo/Smith battles would be cool.

That is exactly what I was thinking of when I wrote that part. :D

Sometimes...you just have to have some fun.

Auralis
December 5th, 2006, 10:30 PM
Well, not the worse episode, just normaly bad, flat and emotionless.
Irresistible is still the king of crap as far as epsiodes go.

HyperCaz
December 5th, 2006, 10:44 PM
It wasn't the worst, but I love Irresistible and this just failed to come anywhere close. As to Kolya being alive, "no one dies in scifi" so he might do an Apophis and resurface again...again...or may his twin. :D

I would have liked to see a western setting as was meant for the episode - that would have spawned a few good one liners...so I'm keen on seeing a town in a desert not near the usual Canadian trees or with the stock standard villager housing.

I actually didn't mind Lucius so much but the rest of the episode got on my nerves more than anything.

As to the personal shield problems, maybe their excuse will be that the one in Hide & Seek was malfunctioning and therefore had different effects.

PG15
December 5th, 2006, 10:52 PM
Indeed. It was, after all, a prototype.

Maybe the Ancients realized that having coffee and water go through their shield so they can eat is a good thing after all. ;)

DelTrax1
December 5th, 2006, 10:54 PM
Well...I agree that that is a good thing. There were quite a few wholes....I'm wondering what the deal was?

SaberBlade
December 5th, 2006, 11:05 PM
I have to say I was disappointed with the death of Kolya. I wanted him to continue on living as he was a very good antagonist when Sheppard is involved.

I do think the episode was much better than Irresitable, and I have started to like Lucius more than before, but I will remember this episode by how such an enjoyable character like Kolya died in such an unremarkable way. Hopefully they will bring him back, come up with some story about how he was wearing a bulletproof vest and faked his death when being shot

Ol'Merlin
December 5th, 2006, 11:22 PM
Wow. I've had better filling in a week old doughnut. Is it me, or did Kolya put on some weight?
I have to say Lucius wasn't as annoying as last time. I could actually tolerate him until he opened his mouth.
All in all, this was a great episode. I can now definitly place an episode in my ranking of favourites just above 200 and Irresistable to take the place of "Third Worst Show in the Franchise of Stargate." Though I have a feeling that Sunday is going to be an even worse filler than this one...

What also upset me was that we FINALLY saw a silencer on a P90, and he didn't even use it! Heck, it was there for 20 seconds, then gone! Every SG member should have a silencer for their P90. How many missions involve stealth operations when the enemy is near? 90%? At least!? I don't know if its worse that they've never used them before, or that they brought it in and ditched it within a minute. What an amazing disappointment this episode was.

I can't even give this episode an integer rating without shaming myself. 0.0000002/100

HyperCaz
December 5th, 2006, 11:28 PM
Wow. I've had better filling in a week old doughnut. Is it me, or did Kolya put on some weight?

He did look a little more chubby. I thought it was just me!

MOOMUR
December 5th, 2006, 11:38 PM
I have to say I was disappointed with the death of Kolya. I wanted him to continue on living as he was a very good antagonist when Sheppard is involved.

I do think the episode was much better than Irresitable, and I have started to like Lucius more than before, but I will remember this episode by how such an enjoyable character like Kolya died in such an unremarkable way. Hopefully they will bring him back, come up with some story about how he was wearing a bulletproof vest and faked his death when being shot

Ditto SB. I actually did enjoy this episode.

aAnubiSs
December 5th, 2006, 11:52 PM
Glad to see they still think rape is no big deal.

Worthless piece of crap is what I call this poor excuse called Atlantis.

jenks
December 5th, 2006, 11:56 PM
What do you think? And please consider very carefully what you post next before you go breaking any GW rules.... :)

I wasn't sure because I was having trouble finding it myself ;)

jenks
December 5th, 2006, 11:57 PM
Glad to see they still think rape is no big deal.

Worthless piece of crap is what I call this poor excuse called Atlantis.

Rape? What rape?

aAnubiSs
December 6th, 2006, 12:01 AM
Rape? What rape?
Drugging women and having sex with them without consent isn't rape?

jenks
December 6th, 2006, 12:06 AM
Drugging women and having sex with them without consent isn't rape?

That's never happened in the show.

aAnubiSs
December 6th, 2006, 12:08 AM
That's never happened in the show.
Yes it has. First episode with this retard Lucius.

jenks
December 6th, 2006, 12:08 AM
Yes it has. First episode with this retard Lucius.

He never drugged anyone, and they did give consent.

Auralis
December 6th, 2006, 12:09 AM
Oh and i just had an sleep induced idee:

How to bring back Koyla, or how to salvage this flat mess of epsiode.

Have the wraith raid that stupid planet soon, very soon. Wihile feeding on Lucius, they discover from his knowledge about Koyla and feed him live force. Bringing him back from the dead to act as theyr arm against atlantis and the genii. While they sit in the background and pull the strings.

And if someone from the writing crew reads this, i DO grant you permission to pitch the idea or flat out use it. For free.

MOOMUR
December 6th, 2006, 12:11 AM
Glad to see they still think rape is no big deal.

Worthless piece of crap is what I call this poor excuse called Atlantis.


Have to admit when I saw that episode that never crossed my mind. Not till I read some of the threads here.

jenks
December 6th, 2006, 12:12 AM
And if someone from the writing crew reads this, i DO grant you permission to pitch the idea or flat out use it. For free.

It's more likely to happen if they don't read this, there's no way they'd write a plot that a fan had suggested...

Ouroboros
December 6th, 2006, 12:13 AM
Can we just once please, pretty please, pretty please with sugar on top...

HAVE ONE SINGLE EPISODE THAT IS NOT WRITTEN AROUND A PIECE OF ******* TECHNOLOGY!

Other than that observation (which is becomeing such a frequent occurance now it's transcended merely laughable) I can't even really get worked up about how much this thing sucked because it was the TV equivalent of a warm soda. Boring, flat, past it's prime and leaves you with a slight feeling of indigestion. A rather apt metaphor for the current state Stargate franchise as well I'd say, a piss warm soda that's been sitting on the table overnight going flat.

So the ultimate point of this episode was what, to give Robert Davi an opportunity to jump off the sinking ship taking one of the few interesting characters with him?

I love the little wild west bit at the end to. I mean if there's one thing this show needs more of it's definately heroes from Urth wank. Why didn't you meandering hacks just have the pretty boy airforce pilot beat up the veteran commando?

Forget about better characterization, forget about characters maybe remembering that they'd be brutally tortured by each other recently, forget about showing any emotion other than juvenile snark attempting to pass for humour, forget about genuine human emotion entirely. It's all about the jokes, the never ending loathsome river of ****ty juvenile sarcastic jokes. That's all you need to write a good episode right.

I know next week lets just have Sheppard lift a car and throw it at some "evil badguys". Maybe we can even play a bowling ball sound like they do in the cartoons when the car hits them, hey wouldn't that be awesome guys. Oh but what lameass one liner shall he spout off before he throws it, what about after... oh man this job is so hard.

I'm calling cancelled before season 5.

Admiral Mappalazarou
December 6th, 2006, 12:58 AM
I liked it :)

HyperCaz
December 6th, 2006, 12:59 AM
How long do you think it would have taken for Rodney to spoon-dig his way out the cell? :D :D

I was interested at how Beckett was talking to Kolya, because they'd never met before that point.

female Wraith
December 6th, 2006, 01:05 AM
I watched it. What to say?? After waisting a whole hour of my life with Irresponsible I was feeling very VERY bad. Actually my first feeling was that I want to go to the bathroom and vomit.

I wonder what M&M the autors of this "masterpiece" think the fans of SGA are?? Idiots? Weak-minded?
Lucius was EATING with activated shield device. And as I remebered in Hide and Seek McKay wasn't able even to touch the device or anyone to touch him.
The whole episode was full with HUGE plot holes. And the villiage - oh, God have someone ever seen someting more insipid??? Why don't they put the episode in Barby's house - that would be MUCH BETTER! I wondered in one moment what I am watching - SGA or some soup opera???

To see Lucius again...was devastating. I thought Irresistable was the worst episode I have ever seen but now I know that Irresponsible is MUCH WORSE. Total crap! Waste of company's money and TV and fan' time.
I read the explanation of Ken Cuperus - the amazingly good idea of M&M was lost somewhere between the script and the TV. Ooooo, please! We saw a total LIME. How is possible the other writers to succeed to express their ideas witout loosing the idea? The truth is M&M ARE NOT GOOD WRITERS! They don't have any new ideas, every of their episode is full with cliches, stupid jokes and unapproprate for SCi FI plots.

I also read that M&M will be the producers of Season 4. OMG!!!! Now I know what we have to expect. Season 4 will be dedicated to Lucius and his relatives, his children, stories how he was raping women, and etc. In short after I watched Irresponsible I now what is coming in the future of SGA - a chain of crap episodes and END of SGA.

I will not be here to watch it. I suppose only the most persistant and masohist fans will be able to see Season 4.

HyperCaz
December 6th, 2006, 01:12 AM
no one could have put that better, female Wraith!! Kudos to you.

I was just thinking again...maybe they got the character interaction mixed up. It was Carson shooting the intense expressions at Kolya...*scratches head*

female Wraith
December 6th, 2006, 01:34 AM
LOL. Thank you. I expressed my annoyance. The balance of charcters action was missing or may be it was lost somewhere between TVset and me:)

andrewag
December 6th, 2006, 01:53 AM
I know stacks of people have said how much they hated this episode, but I enjoyed it. Had me chuckling quite a bit, especially when lucious was suggesting ways that john could make his entrance.

pretty reasonable episode!

silence
December 6th, 2006, 01:54 AM
WORST.EPISODE.EVER

Ken, thnx for posting, script might have been funny, but using Lucius as plot device to kill Kolya is worst idea ever. Kolya was one of best written enemies in SGA, he had charisma and every single episode he was in (untill now) had tension and real drama... and killing him off in episode that has so called funny (:rolleyes:) Lucius is simply wrong. Lucius is most annoying character of all Stargate shows and... damn... i don't have words for that.

There are plotholes everywhere, inconsistencies, annoyance....

They should have killed that moronic Lucius.. but even that wouldn't save this nightmare....

I hope this stupid and annoying character is NEVER AGAIN used in this show.
Please, if you read this, tell the crew to write off this emderessment of character and forget him... cause we can't forget that he was part of WORST ep of SGA.

God... i read spoilers and i knew it was bad, but i watched.. hoping it might not be that bad... it was WORSE then i even feared.


http://i1.tinypic.com/o0o07q.gif LUCIUS

PLEASE!!!!!



EDIT :: and more kudos to female Wraith. i had to write what i feel before looking at all posts. i couldn't agree with you more. GREAT post.

gatinha
December 6th, 2006, 02:17 AM
and Martin Gero, and Carl Binder. From the con reports, JF mentioned that he moved his family back to California. Does he know something about season 4 that we don't? He obviously knew ahead of time that Brad and Robert was going to pass the show to Mullie & Mallozi.

yeah...i was thinking about that too...I am trying to link info I've gathered so far...and it's starting to make sense...first...JF moved his family back to California (first I thought because they got a new baby...with three boys and hectic schedule....it becomes very handy)...but then I read on GW ...Martin Gero said that season 4 will be the season finale....and then BW and RCC are not going to stay...considering JF is quite close to BW (from the comment and interview I read)...yeah definitely something happend!!! Oh...no!!!:(

watcher652
December 6th, 2006, 02:24 AM
Just a few of things I don't think have been mentioned:

- At the end, when Kolya is about to shoot Rodney, I noticed that Rodney is the only one with his hands tied in front of him. Teyla, Ronon and Beckett all have their hands behind them. What's with that?

- In the jail cell, Beckett had some brave dialog there. It was nice, but seemed kinda out of character. Is this a new facet of Beckett that will carry through to future episodes? Somebody did have to say those words, and I guess Carson was the best character there to do so. They were actually kind of Sheppard-y words.

- When Koyla made that crack about the food and Rodney panicked and grabbed his throat, I liked how Carson turned to him to check on him. It was just a little move, but so in character.

- While Carson is talking to Kolya telling him Sheppard is at the Stargate contacting Atlantis, in one cut he's standing at one angle and in the next cut he's standing at another angle. Carson was nicely framed in between the bars, but then he took a step forward when he was talking, then in a cut to a different angle, he's back nicely framed again. I wouldn't have noticed, but the framed shot was so nice, when he took the step forward, I thought that would have brought Carson out of the nice frame. But look, it didn't. I know that stuff happens all the time, but I very rarely notice and that's why I mentioned it.

schtroumph_c
December 6th, 2006, 02:32 AM
He never drugged anyone, and they did give consent.

In the first episode, Irresistible, all the plot was based on the drug he used to forced people to please him.

It doesn't matter if they didn't drink or eat something with the herb, their thoughts and behaviors were influenced by something else. The woman in the village clearly said she refused many times to sleep with him, only marrying him after she was drugged.

She said she didn't give consent. He drugged her to have her. To push her to say yes when she didn't want to. It only has one name.

The two episodes with Lucius could have been good. Irresistible has some moments funny, if he didn't use the drug to sleep with all the women, if he only used it to have peoples work for him. Irresponsable was boring, and could be okay, a little, if they didn't use Kolya, and if they didn't kill him in this episode. Kolya deserved a episode just for it, one where him and John fight to death, for example, but not like an afterthought in a episode only made to please an actor.

That he payed people to look good, that he used some Genii to do it, see what happened to them now there is all the stuff with Cowen, Ladon and Kolya without seeing them, it could have been okay.

But killing Kolya in this episode was a bad idea.

HyperCaz
December 6th, 2006, 02:46 AM
- In the jail cell, Beckett had some brave dialog there. It was nice, but seemed kinda out of character. Is this a new facet of Beckett that will carry through to future episodes? Somebody did have to say those words, and I guess Carson was the best character there to do so. They were actually kind of Sheppard-y words.


that's what made me think they mixed the characters up. Maybe there were using Carson to say the things that Shep was unable to, due to being out...erm..not sure what Shep was doing while all that was going on. :D Walking around a lot.

obsessed1
December 6th, 2006, 03:29 AM
i have to say that i was incredibly disappointed with this epside. the writing was ppor andhteir were inconsistincies and plotholes abound.

There were a few things that i think they could have done better and for my own sanity i am going to write them down.

Why the sheild????? Forget hide and seek, forget the complications that having that sheild brought to the espiode. Lucius is a potion man. Why couldnt he have simply invented a potion that does the same. They could have saved money on special effects and said, "Yeah it only works for three hours or so so he has to keep taking top ups" and then the drowning him in the water would have been plausible because we wouldnt have been thinking, "Hang on...in hide and seek etc!"

He could have hidden his potions in the secret room he hides shep and the gang in.

They could have done away with most of the luciius conversation, had kolya turn up a bit earlier and then had time for shep to have a proper showdonw with Kolya.

Instead of lucius going to his villagers and trying to rally them to go up against the wraith, Lucuis should have simply go the atlantis team out, just in time for them to witness Shep and Kolya getting together.

You could have had that Lucius had offered Shep some fo the invincible potion (thereby tying the stories together) but find out later after a fight that Shep didnt take the potion. His standof/showdonw was the real deal and only one of them was going to leave alive.

You could have had a proper fight, one where at the end Shep then finishes off Kolya.

And would it have killed the writers to mention CG and how that effected shep, at least exlpain why he wanted to kill kolya!!!! "Because of him..this happened" or "I said i'd kill him next time. I wouldnt want to break a promise" and have a acene at the end where Shep is angsting over killing Kolya.

This is all completely irrelevant though because the episode that aired was terrible and beyond saving. It was so wrong in so many ways and I'm almost offended....yep...infact I am.

If this is what is in store for season four....well..........goodbye Atlantis. What a depressing thought. Atlantis needs new writers...thats plainly true.

Sorry for my terrible spelling. Im in a hurry but wanted to get my thoughts down :D

FallenAngelII
December 6th, 2006, 03:35 AM
A very boring and predictable episode. So bad I'm not even gonna write a Transcript on Speed of it.

There were no "surprising" plot twists because you could see them all coming a mile away, Kolya's death was horribly badly done and, well, the constant story telling was old already. Now it just got unbearable.

travis
December 6th, 2006, 03:54 AM
That was painfull to watch, the only thing I liked of this ep was Teyla

saberhagen83
December 6th, 2006, 04:22 AM
For me, this was only slightly better than "Irresistable". It's the second worst ep this season, my opinion here :). The first half was "Irresistable" all over again, only difference was the team knew Lucius was up to something. The second half saved it a bit with Kolya, but I'm still dissapointed in the missed opportunity to use the events of "Common Ground" here. I never felt any tension between Kolya and Sheppard...I'll get back to the rest soon on that.

The end of this ep was probably one of the most predictable things I have seen yet on SGA. We knew Shep was gonna use the shield all along and that it was gonna run out of power, just to give it some excitment. But then we know he will kill Kolya anyway so...not much excitment really. I truly hated the wild west style at the end...it was so cheesy and badly done. I still hate the fact that they killed of Kolya in this way, they should NEVER have done a ep with both Kolya and Lucius...it should have been a dark ep about the aftermath of "Common Ground" with a real confrontation between Shep and Kolya. Oh I'm still so dissapointed with this ep...:(

And the stuff about the shield has been mentioned a lot here. The Goa'uld shield could be penetrated with a knife or whatever thrown at them, bullets couldn't as they move much faster. But we have seen later on newer shields used on SG1, stuff like knifes couldn't get through ("Window of Opportunity" or "Deadman Switch"). I would think the Ancients had better shielding technology than the Goa'uld anyway. In H&S we see Rodney trying to drink, but can't...he doesn't get wet or anything. The writers really have to check these things up, it's small stuff but oh so annoying when you start to think about it. ;)

Col. Shadow Quinn
December 6th, 2006, 04:36 AM
The end was funny because of what happened to Lucius. Shepperd giving him the APS and it was depleted. He got kicked in the crotch, that was funny.

Wolf Eire
December 6th, 2006, 04:37 AM
Episodes that the writers think will be funny never transpire to be so. Recent attempts include Irresponsible, Irresistible and The Tower. The fans don't like them, they're not funny and they don't have a place in this genre of programming. Do the writers even care or do they just write for their own amusement? If it's the case of the latter than they will be doing so on fanfic.net as this show won't last much longer with this kind of standard.

Also the 'villagers = naive and stupid' cliché has been done to death. It's boring, repetitive and unimaginative. Also how tacky is it that every woman earmarked to interact with Lucius happens to be twice as busty as any other female villager and has twice as low cut a top? It's the lowest common denominator.

ShadowMaat
December 6th, 2006, 04:42 AM
I'd like to thing we've gotten away from the team doing mind-boggling stupid things.
You're kidding, right? Want to place a bet right now? Because I say that the whole season finale is going to hinge on Team Atlantis doing something jaw-droppingly, mind-bogglingly STOOPID. Possibly something even more asinine than all of the other asinine decisions they've made before.

And if M&M are coming to Atlantis permanently, I'm guessing it means we'll see more of Lucius, eventually. TPTB obviously don't care if we hate something. After all, it's their show, not ours. In fact, if Martin Gero is to be believed, they ignore negative commentary. A few folks here have said they enjoyed Lucius; those are the fans whose voices will be heard.

Wolf Eire
December 6th, 2006, 04:44 AM
Also, for those who felt that Irresistible was nothing more than rape, this episode is worse in some ways. All the hot women are falling over themselves to come worship Lucius just because he saved the village. This time he didn't even have to drug them! What are the writers saying about women? That they're fickle nymphomaniacs who sleep with men at the drop of a hat? Lucius is supposed to be a big ugly lug and women (who happen to be scantily clad) are even cheating on their husbands to come sleep with him? I think that shows a distinct lack of respect for women and they're essentially behaving as characters do in a porn movie.

prion
December 6th, 2006, 04:53 AM
What an awful episode. I don't even know where to begin, in fact - I'm not going to bother.

+ Kolya
+ All those hot busty chicks wearing traditional German outfits.

- Kolya getting killed like that
- Everything else

2/10. Waste of time.

Well, Lucius actually used one German word, which out htere in the Pegasus galaxy, made absolutely no sense whatsoever. Yes, Bavarian bar maids. Were they having a sale? But at least this gives employment to actresses who aren't stick thin ;)

prion
December 6th, 2006, 04:57 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by aAnubiSs
Drugging women and having sex with them without consent isn't rape?

That's never happened in the show.


Uh, he had what, six wives? Of course he had sex with them, and if they were drugged into liking him, that's non-consexual. In a court of law, he'd be convicted of rape.

macktheknife
December 6th, 2006, 05:19 AM
Kolya was wasted, and since hes dead especially so. All the tension and brilliance of his previous episodes, wasted on lucius. Whilst I thought the first lucius ep was pretty funny, this was pretty pointless.

Lucius deserved a teyla vs sora type fight to the death, except actual ending it.

Utterly wasted the only real villian that lasted more than an episode.

Atlanis
December 6th, 2006, 05:23 AM
That epasoide left alot of ends eg:
Kolia may not have died (I hope Robert Davi is great I want him back)
Cowin's personal guard attempting to over through Ladon's goverment
If a fight between thoes factions happens Atlantis may help Ladon
out since he is an allied head of state
And Lucia's will find another way to scam of another planet

TJuk
December 6th, 2006, 05:25 AM
Have to agree with the worst ep EVER (though there are a few that come a close second) but it did have its highlights. I appreciate Ken C taking the time to give us a little breakdown but I think the ep speaks for itself. It seemed rushed and half done to me, even the editing was sloppy. Lots of jump cuts, extra frames, rough edges and parts where the continuity is shot to hell. Which just screams 'rushed cheap filler ep'.

This ep given A LOT of tweaks could have been a lot better but thats this show all over. Lots of potential, nice ideas poor written and excuted. No one sane could say Luscius was anything BUT a poorly conceived character. And its pretty obvious his return is purely down to the supposed 'star name' pull of Richard Kind (though he's a great actor...always remember him as 'Fish Face' in SAAB). But they could have upped the lightheated suddenly turning dark and dramatic theme (rather then disturbing undertone of Irresistable).

And what is it with Kolya THREATENING to shoot people, but never actually pulling the damn trigger? Now that would have made an interesting twist, if he did actually shoot Teyla, Carson, McKay (well actually give the poor man a rest) or Ronon. That would have upped the anti. I'm also completely dismayed by the characters utter wasteful death. He was fantastic in The Storm/The Eye. A truely classic villian. The rest of his appearences have been pretty good but never truely reached the same high as s1. I guess he's just another in a long line of characters they got bored of, disposed cheaply.

I kinda liked Carson standing up to Kolya. They've been slowly building the chracter up (no doubt to 'help' whatever plot leads to his departure), he hasn't been the timid Doc for a while now.

Giving the writers their due (as Ken C explained). Shep playing the 'lonesome hero' of all the classic westerns would have been VERY interesting and cool! Unfortunately going with the idea in such a bizarre and crap setting just took ALL the appeal right out of it.

Irresponsible...sTOOPID LAME DUCK. 2/10 (and thats being Kind ;))

McKayRocks!
December 6th, 2006, 05:28 AM
Quite simply the worst episode ever. And the insulting plot holes - hey even my old cat spotted them!

Agree with everything that has been said about Lucius and Kolya. Should have shot Lucius and kept Kolya for a fab farewell ep. It could have been a whole ep of him and Shep trying to kill each other - full of suspense and action.

I feel so cheated and I hated this ep.

Mx

Atlanis
December 6th, 2006, 05:34 AM
that village was used in SG-1's season 7 epasoide :Revisions

macktheknife
December 6th, 2006, 05:50 AM
that village was used in SG-1's season 7 epasoide :Revisions

and probably every episode involving the ori homeworld, and any episode that begins with teyla saying "Athosians have met the people and think they are good traders" or some such. I think off the top of my head, that episode with the young wraith, the tower, at least 4 (probably 6-8 on thinking about it) different episodes of the last 2 seasons (sword in the stone, sleepyhead etc etc) of SG1 and probably lent whored it out to battlestar galactica a few times.

Atlanis
December 6th, 2006, 06:03 AM
and probably every episode involving the ori homeworld, and any episode that begins with teyla saying "Athosians have met the people and think they are good traders" or some such. I think off the top of my head, that episode with the young wraith, the tower, at least 4 (probably 6-8 on thinking about it) different episodes of the last 2 seasons (sword in the stone, sleepyhead etc etc) of SG1 and probably lent whored it out to battlestar galactica a few times.


No that wasn't the constucted set they built at the start of season 2 of atlantis and season 9 of sg1
That village is I belive on the Canidain/US border except for the minamul changes like the fountin in the town square it's identical

IWKYZerocool
December 6th, 2006, 06:09 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by aAnubiSs
Drugging women and having sex with them without consent isn't rape?

That's never happened in the show.


Uh, he had what, six wives? Of course he had sex with them, and if they were drugged into liking him, that's non-consexual. In a court of law, he'd be convicted of rape.

Thats true, and he did say in the epsiode that we 1st met him, he sometimes has them all at the same time.... what a player.

silence
December 6th, 2006, 06:24 AM
Giving the writers their due (as Ken C explained). Shep playing the 'lonesome hero' of all the classic westerns would have been VERY interesting and cool! Unfortunately going with the idea in such a bizarre and crap setting just took ALL the appeal right out of it.


seems like m&m like these kind of costumes... The Tower comes to mind.
western themed ep would work much better - with couple of tweaks in script - Genii should have killed couple of those moronic villagers, that would :

a) make the threat more real
b) build some tension
c) make me REALLY happy (i know villagers did their job according to script, but that doesnt mean i could stand them.. seeing few shot would up my enjoyment at least 100%)
d) make villagers standing up to Genii more believeable

blah... yes, they should have explored dark side of Lucius and use proper setting.. then this s***hole might have been really good ep....

but noooooo.... let's put 2 arch-nemesis in fairyland village and god forbid anyone gets hurt but Kolya....

i blame this one on producers... they were given prolly pretty good script and they f***** up... made worst garbage in history of SGA....

FoolishPleasure
December 6th, 2006, 06:30 AM
Kolya has always been a very interesting, dark, and creepy character, and his interaction with Sheppard has always been entertaining. As others have said, these two deserved their own dark "cat and mouse" episode to resolve their arc together. It could have been an incredible acting opportunity for Flanigan and Davi, and a ratings winner for the show. Instead, we get. . .this.

As for Lucius - "Irresistible" was simply a glorification of date rape drugs, and the master print should be burned, and this episode was just. . .irresponsible.

Now, for M & M. They gave us the wonderful "Window of Opportunity", which is my all-time favorite SG1 episode. It had lots of humor, but it also had heart, something these two seem to be lacking in their recent writings. IF they can go back to their glory days, there is hope for SGA. Otherwise, I won't bother watching this sort of nonsense.

I'm also wondering about Beckett - was it M & M's idea to dump him???? And what about Weir? They don't seem to have any idea what to do with her either (unlike the brilliant Carl Binder, who takes full advantage of Torri's acting skills). Just who IS responsible for all the cast changes on this show? I'm just curious - gotta toss these rotten tomatoes at someone. ;)

OneSarcasticChick
December 6th, 2006, 06:33 AM
Just adding my agreement (and/or 2 cents)...

This episode, while displaying a few comedic qualities, was a SG1 episode planted in the SGA world. And as the words imply, it didn't fit.

At all.

John's voice, his lines, just screamed 'Jack'. Now, I know the two characters' dialogue often sounds quite similar (and before people jump on me, I know they're not the same :)). But typically the presentation is completely different. In this episode? Not so much. One word quips were John's speciality. As were snarky side drawls. I had such a hard time splitting the different as I watched the epi - John was John, not Jack - that I lost total focus.

Teyla - when did she turn into a snarky beeyotch? She's usually such a wise, eventempered individual who's hackles rise in connection to Wraith. Now, the lines she spoke to Lucius, to the members of the village, etc...what happened to the old meditating Teyla who thinks the energy being wants to leave? I understand she was angry w/ Lucius, but she's been angry before and I haven't thought "Oh, SNAP!" in connection with Teyla before.

Carson - while I love the 'new' Carson, some explanation please! Why is he going on missions? Why is he turning into Rambo? What happened to Hoffa!Carson? It's like Weir's attitude change on violence and weapons. I can understand it, but there's just this great void in story. And hey, if it's Ronon's teaching him how to defend himself, to stand up for himself, great! Tell us instead of just turning Carson into Arnold.

This episode, while I admittedly laughed in some places (usually in connection w/ Rodney or Ronon), left me extremely disappointed. SGA is not a comedy schtick-driven show. That's SG1, and that only really worked while RDA was on the show. Nevermind the plotholes w/ the personal shield, the overall cheesy colors, the comedy, the camp, the absolute waste of a powerful enemy and the return of a character who should have been left alone, the darker storylines and setting and characters were completely lost in this epi and that was what disappointed me. And it could have happened! Lucius, on the surface, is a funny happy-go-lucky character. Past that? He's a horrible dark, manipulative, self-centered, amoral and all around bad-guy character. Kolya - well, just refer to CG. Imagine this set in the CG world...now that would be an epi that gives me shivers.

I really hope Kolya is only mostly dead and Miracle Max lives somewhere in Pegasus. He deserves a death in which people actually react to his death. Poor guy. He just doesn't get any respect.

This really doesn't bode well for S4. The episodes I loved...it sounds like those writers aren't going to be as involved, which is akin to Jim Carrey taking over Keiffer Sutherland's role on 24. SGA is not SG1...how long is it going to take TPTB to figure that out?

- Jo

ken_is_here
December 6th, 2006, 06:57 AM
I watched it. What to say?? After waisting a whole hour of my life with Irresponsible I was feeling very VERY bad. Actually my first feeling was that I want to go to the bathroom and vomit.

I wonder what M&M the autors of this "masterpiece" think the fans of SGA are?? Idiots? Weak-minded?
Lucius was EATING with activated shield device. And as I remebered in Hide and Seek McKay wasn't able even to touch the device or anyone to touch him.
The whole episode was full with HUGE plot holes. And the villiage - oh, God have someone ever seen someting more insipid??? Why don't they put the episode in Barby's house - that would be MUCH BETTER! I wondered in one moment what I am watching - SGA or some soup opera???

To see Lucius again...was devastating. I thought Irresistable was the worst episode I have ever seen but now I know that Irresponsible is MUCH WORSE. Total crap! Waste of company's money and TV and fan' time.
I read the explanation of Ken Cuperus - the amazingly good idea of M&M was lost somewhere between the script and the TV. Ooooo, please! We saw a total LIME. How is possible the other writers to succeed to express their ideas witout loosing the idea? The truth is M&M ARE NOT GOOD WRITERS! They don't have any new ideas, every of their episode is full with cliches, stupid jokes and unapproprate for SCi FI plots.

I also read that M&M will be the producers of Season 4. OMG!!!! Now I know what we have to expect. Season 4 will be dedicated to Lucius and his relatives, his children, stories how he was raping women, and etc. In short after I watched Irresponsible I now what is coming in the future of SGA - a chain of crap episodes and END of SGA.

I will not be here to watch it. I suppose only the most persistant and masohist fans will be able to see Season 4.

It wasn't an "explanation." It was just my opinion. We all have them. What I see as a great script, others might not.

As for the idea of rape...just to be clear (again, this is only how I see it...right or wrong) Lucious wasn't drugging these woman -- he was taking a phermone that made him come across as sexy. Are we doing any less when we slap on cologne for a night out (well...I don't wear cologne, but...) or put on make up (Don't do that either) to make ourselves as desirable as possible? Lucious found a way to kick it up to 11 -- and which one of you could say you wouldn't do the same thing if you had that ability. Giving someone else a drug is one thing -- but altering the way others see you is another.

(I'm not saying it is acceptable..I'm just saying this is his justification.)

The other thing here is that Lucious is not a good guy...he's essentially a villain. But our team has no jurisdiction to punish him. At the end of Irrisistable they turn him over to the mercy of his fellow villagers (who are no longer under the influence)...to be punished. He is then exiled as punishment. The idea here is to have a guy who comes across as likable and harmless -- but show that he has a dark side as well. If he doesn't get what he wants...he will take it. He is actually very smart and conniving. (He took time to read much of Atlantis' database - when he could have been partying it up)

Now he is trying to start over - But he is still Lucious so he can't do that without having something that makes him special. He can't function without being the centre of attention. So he finds a way to be a hero to his people. he was inspired by Sheppard to be a real hero -- but unlike Sheppard he doesn't know what it means to be a hero. Yes, he is cheating...because he's scared to death of being lost in the crowd. Does that make him unlikable? Sure...why not. He's doing more harm than good to his people... but he's not trying to hurt them (he really thinks he is their protector) he's just terrified of going back to being a normal shlub who had no friends.

Again...this is just how I see it.

Ken C

Platschu
December 6th, 2006, 07:02 AM
I think it was an average episode, not the best, but not the worst as you said. There were good ideas (the scene with the barrel, the dinamite, the boring of the team). Maybe Kolya should have a better end, but the writers were brave and killed him with a quick move just as the writers make in BSG or in 24. He escaped too much as Apophis, so the whole Sheppard vs. Kolya storyline had to be ended. ;)

Arlessiar
December 6th, 2006, 07:10 AM
All those hot busty chicks wearing traditional German outfits. The costumes didn't look exactly like a traditional German Dirndl, but the similarity was bad enough (yeah I'm German, but I'm not a fan of this traditional clothing thing. Luckily I don't live in Bavaria).

By the way, Ken said that this little village was supposed to look Dutch. Well, any Dutch people here who can say something about this? ;)


Well, Lucius actually used one German word, which out htere in the Pegasus galaxy, made absolutely no sense whatsoever. If I got this right it was "Schnitzel" (=pork cutlet). I watched this scene several times because I was asking myself if I really got that right, but I think I did. And I grinned a lot because of that word. :)


Yes, Bavarian bar maids.Were they having a sale? But at least this gives employment to actresses who aren't stick thin ;) Your meaning is...? ;)

Bye, A.

Alipeeps
December 6th, 2006, 07:12 AM
I really hope Kolya is only mostly dead and Miracle Max lives somewhere in Pegasus.


Sorry, just had to quote this cos it made me chuckle so much! :D


It wasn't an "explanation." It was just my opinion. We all have them. What I see as a great script, others might not.

As for the idea of rape...just to be clear (again, this is only how I see it...right or wrong) Lucious wasn't drugging these woman -- he was taking a phermone that made him come across as sexy. Are we doing any less when we slap on cologne for a night out (well...I don't wear cologne, but...) or put on make up (Don't do that either) to make ourselves as desirable as possible? Lucious found a way to kick it up to 11 -- and which one of you could say you wouldn't do the same thing if you had that ability. Giving someone else a drug is one thing -- but altering the way others see you is another.

(I'm not saying it is acceptable..I'm just saying this is his justification.)

The other thing here is that Lucious is not a good guy...he's essentially a villain. But our team has no jurisdiction to punish him. At the end of Irrisistable they turn him over to the mercy of his fellow villagers (who are no longer under the influence)...to be punished. He is then exiled as punishment. The idea here is to have a guy who comes across as likable and harmless -- but show that he has a dark side as well. If he doesn't get what he wants...he will take it. He is actually very smart and conniving. (He took time to read much of Atlantis' database - when he could have been partying it up)

Now he is trying to start over - But he is still Lucious so he can't do that without having something that makes him special. He can't function without being the centre of attention. So he finds a way to be a hero to his people. he was inspired by Sheppard to be a real hero -- but unlike Sheppard he doesn't know what it means to be a hero. Yes, he is cheating...because he's scared to death of being lost in the crowd. Does that make him unlikable? Sure...why not. He's doing more harm than good to his people... but he's not trying to hurt them (he really thinks he is their protector) he's just terrified of going back to being a normal shlub who had no friends.

Again...this is just how I see it.

Ken C

Hi Ken! *waves*

Nice to see you in here again and thanks for posting some interesting thoughts - I quite agree with your interpretation of Lucius; what interested me very much in Irresistible is that he started out seeming to be an annoyance, a rather silly, irritating character, but as the episode progressed we began to see how truly manipulative and insidious and amoral he is and the whole tone became a lot darker - I think in particular of the scene in the gateroom where Sheppard suddenly realises that he is the only one unaffected and that everyone is against him and he has to backtrack and apologise to get out of the situation and have time to regroup and decide what the heck to do - and also of the scene in the cell where Lucius shows his true colours.

I still think Irresponsible would perhaps have been a better episode if we had again seen more of that darker side to Lucius rather than just playing him for pure comedy - that would have tied in perhaps better with the darker elements to Kolya's character and history.

I also agree with you on the "great rape debate"; I can honestly say such an interpretation never even occured to me until I read the discussion on here! Yes, Lucius actions were utterly reprehensible.. and they were meant to be. We were supposed to realise that this is an amoral, cunning person; he is not supposed to be likeable. I was actually reminded of this recently when I saw an advert for Lynx body spray which showed a man standing on a beach spraying himself with the body spray and grinning lavisciously whilst hundreds of bikini-clad women ran hungrily towards him from every direction. How come no-one is complaining that that advert is condoning rape? ;)

I like your interpretation on Lucius in this ep - it's an interesting way of looking at it. I admit I hadn't really considered that he really was trying to change and be a better man, that Sheppard had inspired him. I guess the portrayal of the darker side of his character in Irresistible made such an impression on me that I just assumed he was once again just out for what he could get.

All in all, I quite enjoyed the ep and there were lots of good moments in it - I certainly think it would have come acorss very differently and made a little more sense (especially at the end) if the planned western theme had been able to be carried through. I just still wish we could have had a lovely, angsty, Ken-penned ep dealing with Sheppard and Kolya... but then, I'm all about the angst! :D :D

female Wraith
December 6th, 2006, 07:14 AM
It wasn't an "explanation." It was just my opinion. We all have them. What I see as a great script, others might not.

As for the idea of rape...just to be clear (again, this is only how I see it...right or wrong) Lucious wasn't drugging these woman -- he was taking a phermone that made him come across as sexy. Are we doing any less when we slap on cologne for a night out (well...I don't wear cologne, but...) or put on make up (Don't do that either) to make ourselves as desirable as possible? Lucious found a way to kick it up to 11 -- and which one of you could say you wouldn't do the same thing if you had that ability. Giving someone else a drug is one thing -- but altering the way others see you is another.

(I'm not saying it is acceptable..I'm just saying this is his justification.)

The other thing here is that Lucious is not a good guy...he's essentially a villain. But our team has no jurisdiction to punish him. At the end of Irrisistable they turn him over to the mercy of his fellow villagers (who are no longer under the influence)...to be punished. He is then exiled as punishment. The idea here is to have a guy who comes across as likable and harmless -- but show that he has a dark side as well. If he doesn't get what he wants...he will take it. He is actually very smart and conniving. (He took time to read much of Atlantis' database - when he could have been partying it up)

Now he is trying to start over - But he is still Lucious so he can't do that without having something that makes him special. He can't function without being the centre of attention. So he finds a way to be a hero to his people. he was inspired by Sheppard to be a real hero -- but unlike Sheppard he doesn't know what it means to be a hero. Yes, he is cheating...because he's scared to death of being lost in the crowd. Does that make him unlikable? Sure...why not. He's doing more harm than good to his people... but he's not trying to hurt them (he really thinks he is their protector) he's just terrified of going back to being a normal shlub who had no friends.

Again...this is just how I see it.

Ken C

So I have to correct myself. I didn't read your explanation I read your opinion.

As for Lucuis - if someone use make up or pefume he attracts the attention of a person with clear mind. The drug changes the minds of the people around without their agreement so it an act of violence.
I am sure that if the character of Lucuis was in another TV show he will be great but in SGA he looked ...I don't know how to explain it - out of place.
Thanks for posting here. I have to say I really sorry that you will not write a sequel to Common ground - my favourite Season 3' episode.

silence
December 6th, 2006, 07:17 AM
Hi Ken,
thnx for another post.
I think most people here agree with what you are saying. Idea behind latest ep wasn't that bad at all. The problem is how it was done. And many of us are affriad this will continue in S4.

As i said, if this ep was done in different setting, with just few minor tweaks.. after all Kolya really has no problem with shooting people or hurting them in any possible way (he fed Shep to Wraith in CG).. why not shoot few villagers?
That would create tension, gave Kolya's death more meaning and ep would be turned 180 degrees in eyes of many fans.

Underlaying idea might be good, but execution was done totally wrong. That's our fear. Good scripts being turned into bad eps.

Psyku
December 6th, 2006, 07:31 AM
i'm confused i actually like this episode, :S hehe aaah hmm kolya is shot i dont think he's death.

if he is then, the episode sucked guess carson has checked the dead body.

kind of hoping he fakes his own death do.

oooh well i'm not convinced yet.

my reason is seeing kolya looking kind of fat with that jacket. perhaps or atleast i hope something was hidden in there. that could catch bullits ;)

Linzi
December 6th, 2006, 07:37 AM
Quite simply the worst episode ever. And the insulting plot holes - hey even my old cat spotted them!

Agree with everything that has been said about Lucius and Kolya. Should have shot Lucius and kept Kolya for a fab farewell ep. It could have been a whole ep of him and Shep trying to kill each other - full of suspense and action.

I feel so cheated and I hated this ep.

Mx
Yes. You've hit the nail on the head. After the wonderful episode that was Common Ground, I feel so incredibly CHEATED!!!!!! Kolya's gone? In a cheesy Wild West shoot out? That's it? What an insult to Robert Davi.
Don't even get me started on the plot holes. The shield stuff? Hello? Hide and Seek? I think the writers seemed to be getting confused with a Goa'uld shield, not the Ancient one we saw in Hide and Seek. Rodney tried to drink coffee and couldn't make it penetrate the shield, and he didn't throw it at himself at high speed!This episode was a disgrace, and was an insult to fans who regularly enjoy the show. It may seem strange, but we do actually have brains in our heads!
I'm so disappointed. I just pray this was one of the two episodes of season three Joe told me he wasn't sure about at the London Expo! Because if there are worse than this, then I'm seriously depressed!!!!

Suzotchka
December 6th, 2006, 07:49 AM
Yes. You've hit the nail on the head. After the wonderful episode that was Common Ground, I feel so incredibly CHEATED!!!!!! Kolya's gone? In a cheesy Wild West shoot out? That's it? What an insult to Robert Davi.
Don't even get me started on the plot holes. The shield stuff? Hello? Hide and Seek? I think the writers seemed to be getting confused with a Goa'uld shield, not the Ancient one we saw in Hide and Seek. Rodney tried to drink coffee and couldn't make it penetrate the shield, and he didn't throw it at himself at high speed!This episode was a disgrace, and was an insult to fans who regularly enjoy the show. It may seem strange, but we do actually have brains in our heads!
I'm so disappointed. I just pray this was one of the two episodes of season three Joe told me he wasn't sure about at the London Expo! Because if there are worse than this, then I'm seriously depressed!!!!

I absolutely agree with you!

With so many stories to tell and many characters to further develop, this is the episode they choose to film. What a waste of an episode and a waste of my time.

And I'd just like to add that Kolya deserved a better episode than this.

silence
December 6th, 2006, 07:55 AM
Don't even get me started on the plot holes. The shield stuff? Hello? Hide and Seek? I think the writers seemed to be getting confused with a Goa'uld shield, not the Ancient one we saw in Hide and Seek. Rodney tried to drink coffee and couldn't make it penetrate the shield, and he didn't throw it at himself at high speed!This episode was a disgrace, and was an insult to fans who regularly enjoy the show. It may seem strange, but we do actually have brains in our heads!


I watched Hide And Seek just to make sure...

Not only he spilled coffee, but he couldn't even touch the device with his own hand. Shep couldn't touch him. No way he could get foot massage. ;)

Also it is said that shield is imprinted on person who starts and it needs ATA gene.

Where and specially HOW did Lucius even find someone with ATA gene?
How could he use something that's imprinted to person who has ATA?

The more i read, the worse i feel. Why use shield at all... such lack of ideas, they could have used something like those arm-bands that Tok'Ra brought to SG-1 and there would be no plot hole... arggghhh......

Not to mention that experimental Ancient personal shields lay around the galaxy on every corner...

http://img124.echo.cx/img124/3829/sc1093ss.gif

obsessed1
December 6th, 2006, 07:58 AM
I absolutely agree with you!

With so many stories to tell and many characters to further develop, this is the episode they choose to film. What a waste of an episode and a waste of my time.

And I'd just like to add that Kolya deserved a better episode than this.
me too. I agree with what Linz said :(

obsessed1
December 6th, 2006, 07:59 AM
I watched Hide And Seek just to make sure...

Not only he spilled coffee, but he couldn't even touch the device with his own hand. Shep couldn't touch him. No way he could get foot massage. ;)

Also it is said that shield is imprinted on person who starts and it needs ATA gene.

Where and specially HOW did Lucius even find someone with ATA gene?
How could he use something that's imprinted to person who has ATA?

The more i read, the worse i feel. Why use shield at all... such lack of ideas, they could have used something like those arm-bands that Tok'Ra brought to SG-1 and there would be no plot hole... arggghhh......

Not to mention that experimental Ancient personal shields lay around the galaxy on every corner...

http://img124.echo.cx/img124/3829/sc1093ss.gif
Absoloutely. As i mentioned before, it would have been more believable if Lucius had just invented a potion that made him invincible and he just had to drink it every three hours or so. Its insulting to think that the writers could think we would over look the sheild issue. We all have brains. We can all remember hide and seek and how the sheild works.

Forget everything else. The shield issue alone is enough to turn me off this ep.

Wraith_Hunter
December 6th, 2006, 08:13 AM
I don't think the actual setting took that much of it away. Other than giving a more authentic western type feel to it, there is very little else it could have done that wasn't done in this ep.

The only thing that comes to mind would be a horses, saloon, then the batwing's that Shep, Kolya or Lucius would walk part & slowly walk through out onto the street etc. All the other events that transpired in the village would have still been the exact same in a western style set as well. So a simple setting change wouldn't have suddenly made the ep doubly as good than it ended up.

Plus it didn't help that it was already used in S7 of SG-1, with the shrinking dome plot.

Kolya (a little chubbier since the last time) was wasted in this ep. After CG, I expected to see fireworks the next time they went. Instead just like Orion earlier in the season, out with a whimper rather than a bang did he go.

However seeing how so many people didn't want him to die in this ep. I magically expect to see him revived at least once more in S4.

Hopefully, also when they read this thread. That Lucius is also brought back once more. That ep shows him being captured by the Wraith & his vast frame being drained for all it's worth. That single scene alone would get it a 10/10 from me!

In Atlantis as well as lots of SG-1 eps, far too many races we've seen are cast as the dumb inferior villagers that most don't even look to have invented electricity yet. I understand they are on a budget, but other shows can manage it. So if they really need to cut down to enable better sets etc, then start outsourcing the CGI where it can be done for around half the price.

What gets me is that not who even created the Lucius character & thought it would be a good addition, to not only 1 but 2 Atlantis episodes. Rather is the ones that have the main say that allowed them to do it...For me that's much more worrying instead!

It seems that there are too many yes men making these decisions on the show. The same thing happened to SG-1 & it's now beginning to happen to Atlantis as well. I'm not saying the writers aren't talented in what they do. I'm simply stating that they should have people at the top end who give the writers ideas for what they want to see happening in the eps (people who know what the fans want). Then take a look over them & make changes. Writers should stay writers, rather than writing the eps, directing, producing & being the ice-cream boy all at the very same time.

I've read twice in interviews that they don't make make the shows fore the fans but do stuff they want to see appear on screen. Hate to break it to you boys, but if they aren't what the fans want, then you won't be making anything very shortly as seen by SG-1's cancellation.

Since the 2nd half of S3 started airing in Canada there has been a plot hole in every single ep so far.

'The Return II': McKay says he won an acting award when he was younger, yet in 'The Eye' he said he couldn't act if his life depended on it.

'Echoes': McKay asks Shep why the Lanteans didn't think of doing it, he replied they probably couldn't spare the ships because they wre fighting the Wraith. This was despite the fact that they had already established the fact that the 'thing' happened a full 15,000 years ago. A whole 5000 years before they had even met the Wraith.

'Irresponsible': The whole shield thing didn't work for me. McKay wouldn't eat or drink anything at all. Yet Lucius was chomping down for all his worth. Then comes the biggest plot-hole. It's already been established that, in S1 fluids cannot penetrate the shield. As in S1 the drink runs down the shield. Yet in this ep it magically can. Also in this ep, we see Ronon cannot punch the wearer, just like Grodin in S1. So seeing how Lucius was wearing it at the time, how could the Genni rejects even move him to the water, never mind be able to dunk this sumo into it in the 1st place. Surely when they went to grab him, they'd get zapped by the shield the moment their fingers made contact with him, just like Ronon half an hour earlier on in the ep. Totally inconsistent.

I should also not that in S1's 'Suspicion', the teleplay also by Joseph Mallozzi & Paul Mullie. McKay says to Zelenka that Earth is 300 million light years away from Pegasus. Yet in S2's 'Grace Under Pressure' it was changed to only 3 million light years away. It's silly errors & plot holes like this that happen once too often in Atlantis these days.

So I do feel putting in JM & PM in as showrunners for S4 is wrong. Atlantis has falling viewers, rising productions costs. They well may be competent writers if given the right story, but it needs someone with a real steady hand these days. Someone who has a vision for where the show is heading, rather than have them doing nothing since S1 other than bumbling into 1 fiasco after another, with a few 'comedy' eps thrown in each season for good measure. This I feel will come back to bite them big time come the middle of S4, when Skiffy headhunters comes lurking!

The stories on Atlantis these days aren't smart enough, in every ep it seems they get some piece of ancient tech, yet before the end of the ep is over. It's gone & the big magical reset button is used in the very next ep & they are back to going off on their next cock-up mission. The show to me nowadays has a more campy feel to it despite tptb & cast saying in interviews how dark it's turning.

The only good part was some of the character interactions between the team, Ronon making some jokes about his people. Then Beckett coming along initially to most likely do some tests on this unknown hero. However after he got there, they were used on Lucius instead. He seems to have more screen time as of late, which I would say was a good thing had I not already known what was coming for him in a few eps time. Obviously he's getting more time to make his

loss to Atlantis when he gets replaced by JS as the new doctor of Atlantis in S4 have more of an effect with the fans & seem more dramatic to the show. Although it won't be long before the 'Jonas' or more lately known as 'Forded' effect comes into play with the Carson character & he's tossed to the scrapheap & never talked of again.

Which is a total travesty & another silly decision that will come back to bite them on the ass big time!

The only other scene that I raised a smirk at was the very end one where he got a kick. It's just a shame it wasn't an adult doing the booting!

Overall, 'Irresponsible', 'Irresistable', 'The Tower' & 'Epiphany' rank as the worst episodes of Atlantis to me of all that I've seen. What's worse is that most of these barrel scrapers were written or had some other involvement by these 2 people that will be showrunners for S4 of Atlantis...If your an Atlantis fan, it's time to be very worried indeed! :(

Alipeeps
December 6th, 2006, 08:24 AM
Also in this ep, we see Ronon cannot punch the wearer, just like Grodin in S1. So seeing how Lucius was wearing it at the time, how could the Genni rejects even move him to the water, never mind be able to dunk this sumo into it in the 1st place. Surely when they went to grab him, they'd get zapped by the shield the moment their fingers made contact with him, just like Ronon half an hour earlier on in the ep. Totally inconsistent.

On this particular point I have to say, wearing the shield does not mean other people cannot touch you or move your around - the sheild doesn't "zap" you when you touch it (witness Sheppard's attempt to remove the shield in H&S) - it burts when you hit it like Grodin or Ronon because it reacts like a solid surface so it's like hitting a wall. You can still touch people and e.g. push them around - it's just that you would be touching/pushing against the "solid surface" of their shield rather than the person's flesh... hence how Sheppard could push McKay off the balcony in H&S.

Luz
December 6th, 2006, 08:25 AM
Hi Ken,
thnx for another post.
I think most people here agree with what you are saying. Idea behind latest ep wasn't that bad at all. The problem is how it was done. And many of us are affriad this will continue in S4.


Please don't presum to speak for all of us, you cannot say what most people think unless you've talked to each and every fan.

As for Lucius pheromones, it was rape, he used a drug to take those women against their will, it doesn't matter if he put it on himself instead of their drinks. He had sex with them against their will, that's rape, he used those pheromones to make those people into his slaves, he performed sexual rape, mind rape on the people from that planet. That's not cute, that's not funny.

And now they brought him back, and what?, are we supposed to laugh because *omg* so cute?, he is the most disgusting SGA character to have ever been created, how anybody thought it would be a good idea to not only not punish him for his crimes, but bring him back and try to make him redeemable, it's past me.

My reaction to this character and those two episodes that were wasted on him is just I-don't-get-it, why?, why bring him back?, why waste Kolya's presence, his death on such a tacky episode?, why?.

Wraith_Hunter
December 6th, 2006, 08:27 AM
On this particular point I have to say, wearing the shield does not mean other people cannot touch you or move your around - the sheild doesn't "zap" you when you touch it (witness Sheppard's attempt to remove the shield in H&S) - it burts when you hit it like Grodin or Ronon because it reacts like a solid surface so it's like hitting a wall. You can still touch people and e.g. push them around - it's just that you would be touching/pushing against the "solid surface" of their shield rather than the person's flesh... hence how Sheppard could push McKay off the balcony in H&S.

If that's the case then, why not slap them when they touch you. The force of that was seen earlier on in the ep when he sent them all flying. Just like how Ronon or Grodin felt when they were hit by it. Then the fact that the shield would protect against the liquid just like in 'H&S'. So he wouldn't get wet while using it. Still doesn't make sense!

Alipeeps
December 6th, 2006, 08:38 AM
If that's the case then, why not slap them when they touch you. The force of that was seen earlier on in the ep when he sent them all flying. Just like how Ronon or Grodin felt when they were hit by it. Then the fact that the shield would protect against the liquid just like in 'H&S'. So he wouldn't get wet while using it. Still doesn't make sense!

Oh, I know there's still all the other aspects of the shield plot holes that have been pointed out - I was just responding to that particular point. The shield doesn't zap but does act like a very solid surface - so hitting it hard (like Grodin and Ronon) hurts, just like punching a wall would hurt, and being punched by someone wearing it hurts... just like being punched by a wall or hit by, say, a big solid wooden club or such would hurt. Why Lucius didn't just fight them all off when they tried to move him to the well etc, I don't know. We didn't see that scene happen. Maybe he lost his nerve and was intimidated by so many bad guys (he's not actually all that brave really, after all) or maybe they threatened the villagers - like the supposed raiders pretended to earlier. We just don't know.

silence
December 6th, 2006, 08:41 AM
Please don't presum to speak for all of us, you cannot say what most people think unless you've talked to each and every fan.


Sorry, i didn't want to sound it like that.
I meant that after reading all the comments i think that most people wouldn't mind sort of character Ken described as villain, but the way this character was done and introduced (specially in last episode) was completlly wrong.

Double sided b****** that only watches his own interest and who you can never trust seems like interesting character... and if they did both eps in darker tone, maybe with another actor, it might have worked.

But, TPTB decided to go with this version and we can only hope they won't do this idiocy again.

Again, sorry for the way i worded my post, but i am still in shock... and i don't think i have to say why. ;)

BTW :: i completlly agree with your whole post...

Luz
December 6th, 2006, 08:43 AM
Again, sorry for the way i worded my post, but i am still in shock... and i don't think i have to say why. ;)

Sorry I snapped at you like that, it's just that thinking about Lucius makes me angry, I'm just so pissed about this character, this episode, the waste of Kolya.

ken_is_here
December 6th, 2006, 08:43 AM
Please don't presum to speak for all of us, you cannot say what most people think unless you've talked to each and every fan.

As for Lucius pheromones, it was rape, he used a drug to take those women against their will, it doesn't matter if he put it on himself instead of their drinks. He had sex with them against their will, that's rape, he used those pheromones to make those people into his slaves, he performed sexual rape, mind rape on the people from that planet. That's not cute, that's not funny.

And now they brought him back, and what?, are we supposed to laugh because *omg* so cute?, he is the most disgusting SGA character to have ever been created, how anybody thought it would be a good idea to not only not punish him for his crimes, but bring him back and try to make him redeemable, it's past me.

My reaction to this character and those two episodes that were wasted on him is just I-don't-get-it, why?, why bring him back?, why waste Kolya's presence, his death on such a tacky episode?, why?.

Okay, let me give you one more thing to think about:

If taking a substance to change your appearance (either physically or mentally) in order to get laid is a form of rape -- then perhaps we should start a letter campaign to the producers of "The Nutty Professor." Suddenly this innocent family movie is not so innocent after all. Shame on you Eddie. And you too Jerry!! (OH, and a screener of that bad Tate Donavon/Sandra Bulloch movie "Love Potion #9" had best be sent to the FBI for review as well) Also, the pilot episode of "Torchwood" has one of the cast regulars- yes, one of the "heroes" - using a magic perfume that makes woman (and Men) throw themselves at him. And he takes FULL advantage. But I've seen no cry of rape in that instance.

I'm really glad to see that the fans of Stargate are such a noble breed, really I am. But if you had a phermone (be it spray on, or a tasty beverage) that you could drink, that would make Angelina Jolie (or Brad Pitt - however your tastes may run) fall hopelessly in love with you -- can you honestly say you wouldn't use it. Honestly? Do you have that kind of self control? Because I don't think it would take a villain, or even an inherintly bad person, to lose their self-control when faced with this kind of moral dillemma.

Just some more fuel for the fire...

Wolf Eire
December 6th, 2006, 08:49 AM
As for the idea of rape...just to be clear (again, this is only how I see it...right or wrong) Lucious wasn't drugging these woman -- he was taking a phermone that made him come across as sexy. Are we doing any less when we slap on cologne for a night out (well...I don't wear cologne, but...) or put on make up (Don't do that either) to make ourselves as desirable as possible? Lucious found a way to kick it up to 11 -- and which one of you could say you wouldn't do the same thing if you had that ability. Giving someone else a drug is one thing -- but altering the way others see you is another.

(I'm not saying it is acceptable..I'm just saying this is his justification.)



Mr. Cooperus,
That's pretty unacceptable. If I have a drug can surefire get women to sleep with me, ones who never would under any other cicumstances and would be disgusted once they snapped out of the drug induced stupor then it doesn't matter if I inject her, spike her drink, or slap it on my neck, I'm drugging them. The analogy doesn't hold up.

Also, how do you answer to the fact that the women of this village (single or not, even married) are portayed as horny nymphos who will happily sleep with this man (who you are portraying as an ugly annoying oaf) seeming as he just saved the village. A woman who clearly showed disdain for him earlier is ready to throw herself at his feet (literally) just because he saved the village that day. If you saved a beautiful woman on the street from being robbed do you think she'll automatically sleep with you no matter what you look like or what your personality is? You're sending out a very dodgy impression about women.

Of course when I say "you" I mean the writers, this isn't a personal assault on you.

SGAFan
December 6th, 2006, 08:55 AM
I am so not the guy to be answering technical questions. I can't even get my toaster to brown both sides of the bread equally.

Who can? LOL

I have to say that I for one really appreciate you coming around and talking with us. In spite of all the passionate responses, I'd say most people would agree on that.

Thank you so much.

And I need to reiterate my disappointment that you are not going to be actively involved in season four. I think it's a big mistake, frankly. You have a great grasp on the Atlantis characters (especially Sheppard)

SGAFan
December 6th, 2006, 08:57 AM
I just noticed something interesting that escaped my notice on first viewing of Irresponsible (yes, I am watching it again :D):

The reason why Sheppard was so calm about the attack on the village and not bothered about letting the "bandits" disarm them etc....

http://i49.photobucket.com/albums/f260/Alipeeps/SGA/Season%203/Irresponsible/emptybarrel.jpg

He saw that the chambers of the gun pointed at him were empty. He knew right then that the weapons weren't loaded and that this was all a scam...

Apols if I'm being utterly thick and everyone else got that straight away! :D


LOL!! I didn't notice that at first, but you're right! Thats painfully obvious especially to someone like Shep. LOL

Good catch! :D

Wolf Eire
December 6th, 2006, 08:57 AM
If taking a substance to change your appearance (either physically or mentally) in order to get laid is a form of rape -- then perhaps we should start a letter campaign to the producers of "The Nutty Professor." Suddenly this innocent family movie is not so innocent after all. Shame on you Eddie. And you too Jerry!! (OH, and a screener of that bad Tate Donavon/Sandra Bulloch movie "Love Potion #9" had best be sent to the FBI for review as well) Also, the pilot episode of "Torchwood" has one of the cast regulars- yes, one of the "heroes" - using a magic perfume that makes woman (and Men) throw themselves at him. And he takes FULL advantage. But I've seen no cry of rape in that instance.

Torchwood is an amoral show, it's post watershed and the writers have constantly proclaimed how they're pushing the boundaries of sexual norms on tv and how it's supposed to be a dark show. Irresistible was allegedy supposed to be funny. It was certainly shot in a campy manner. You treated the material in a far less serious way that Torchwood and made light of this and brushed over it. You can't compare these shows.


Because I don't think it would take a villain, or even an inherintly bad person, to lose their self-control when faced with this kind of moral dillemma.

I think there's a word for this sort of thing...it's eh...ah yeah...rape. That kind of person is called a rapist.

ken_is_here
December 6th, 2006, 08:58 AM
Mr. Cooperus,
That's pretty unacceptable. If I have a drug can surefire get women to sleep with me, ones who never would under any other cicumstances and would be disgusted once they snapped out of the drug induced stupor then it doesn't matter if I inject her, spike her drink, or slap it on my neck, I'm drugging them. The analogy doesn't hold up.

Also, how do you answer to the fact that the women of this village (single or not, even married) are portayed as horny nymphos who will happily sleep with this man (who you are portraying as an ugly annoying oaf) seeming as he just saved the village. A woman who clearly showed disdain for him earlier is ready to throw herself at his feet (literally) just because he saved the village that day. If you saved a beautiful woman on the street from being robbed do you think she'll automatically sleep with you no matter what you look like or what your personality is? You're sending out a very dodgy impression about women.


I didn't realize that I was being held accountable. But I will take a stab at this anyway, if it pleases the court...just for fun.

I don't think we said anywhere that ALL the women were after Lucious. Is there not basis for hero worship in the real world. That some (keyword:some) women are attracted to power? I mean, when a gorgeous 20 year old marries a 90 year old millionaire...is that for love or money. Just because one bar maid (or a few other unhappily married villagers) decide to have a fling with the town hero - doesn't mean that every woman in the village follows this pattern. It's just a plot device to give motivation to Luciuous' decision to pretend to save the town. It doesn't mean the SG writing staff are a bunch of mysoginistic leeches. I'm happily married to a woman I adore and respect.

Ken C (stands for Cuperus -- not Cooper)

Ruined_puzzle
December 6th, 2006, 09:01 AM
Okay, let me give you one more thing to think about:

If taking a substance to change your appearance (either physically or mentally) in order to get laid is a form of rape -- then perhaps we should start a letter campaign to the producers of "The Nutty Professor." Suddenly this innocent family movie is not so innocent after all. Shame on you Eddie. And you too Jerry!! (OH, and a screener of that bad Tate Donavon/Sandra Bulloch movie "Love Potion #9" had best be sent to the FBI for review as well) Also, the pilot episode of "Torchwood" has one of the cast regulars- yes, one of the "heroes" - using a magic perfume that makes woman (and Men) throw themselves at him. And he takes FULL advantage. But I've seen no cry of rape in that instance.

I'm really glad to see that the fans of Stargate are such a noble breed, really I am. But if you had a phermone (be it spray on, or a tasty beverage) that you could drink, that would make Angelina Jolie (or Brad Pitt - however your tastes may run) fall hopelessly in love with you -- can you honestly say you wouldn't use it. Honestly? Do you have that kind of self control? Because I don't think it would take a villain, or even an inherintly bad person, to lose their self-control when faced with this kind of moral dillemma.

Just some more fuel for the fire...

This is just so dissappointing to read.

I wouldn't call Owen a hero and there was alot of controversy about his actions. Most people instantly hated him and still do. Plus the tone of the episode was completely different then what you guys were selling for Irresistable. Everything Changes wasn't a comedic episode, it was an all out drama.

ken_is_here
December 6th, 2006, 09:06 AM
Torchwood is an amoral show, it's post watershed and the writers have constantly proclaimed how they're pushing the boundaries of sexual norms on tv and how it's supposed to be a dark show. Irresistible was allegedy supposed to be funny. It was certainly shot in a campy manner. You treated the material in a far less serious way that Torchwood and made light of this and brushed over it. You can't compare these shows.



I think there's a word for this sort of thing...it's eh...ah yeah...rape. That kind of person is called a rapist.


Ah, but I see you elected not to mention Nutty Professor -- a COMEDY made for CHILDREN.

Also, dark or not, the beat in Torchwood was used as a humourous beat. So it is acceptable to use a device for rape, as long as the show it is used in is edgy? I see. So using a rape device is okay in context? Gotcha.

OneSarcasticChick
December 6th, 2006, 09:06 AM
I have to agree w/ Ken.

I honestly have no problems with what Lucius did w/ the phermones. Well, I do from a personal level, but on a story-level? It just made him more of a screwed up, dark character to me. I mean, this is a character who has charmed the -audience-, let alone the other characters. It's a dichotomous character development. On the one hand, he appears light-hearted and obnoxiously charming (with or without the phermones, as demonstrated in the two epis). Yet at the same time, he is a villain. The colors, the settings, the tone, the visuals and sounds/music of the epis are light, they're bright...however, the overall undercurrent and punch of the epi is that it's -not- what you see. It's not the surface story being told by the chintzy village, the perky music and the comedic dialogue. Which, is just another variation on a theme of manipulation and control that Lucius himself exhibits.

I don't, however, agree w/ Ken in re: to the 'everyone would do it' idea. Sorry Ken, I wouldn't. :)

I do think, though, that there are two ultimate problems here. 1) the fall of the Kolya character. And 2) the 2nd (in the Lucius series, at least) chintzy, 'fun', comedy epi.

I think that had this been a darker epi, maybe with the same happy-go-lucky Lucius but the visuals, the music, etc...match the characteristics of that villain (Lucius) ... the story would have worked better. The death of Kolya wouldn't have felt so out of place/such a let down. Make the epi echo the substance of Lucius, instead of pretending to charm and humor the audience. The fans of SGA are smarter than that. And I think that's part of the reason why the epi felt so "off" (other than the SG1 feel in a SGA world).

ShadowMaat
December 6th, 2006, 09:08 AM
As for the idea of rape...just to be clear (again, this is only how I see it...right or wrong) Lucious wasn't drugging these woman -- he was taking a phermone that made him come across as sexy. Are we doing any less when we slap on cologne for a night out (well...I don't wear cologne, but...) or put on make up (Don't do that either) to make ourselves as desirable as possible?
Thanks for sharing your opinion on the subject, Ken, but as far as I'm concerned, it's still rape. Slapping on cologne or enhancing your physical appearance might make you appear more presentable, but if a woman (or man) hates you then no amount of High Karate or blemish remover is going to make you more sexually attractive- especially if your personality is that of an utter lecherous jackass. If you are altering a person's perception of you to such a degree that their free will is removed and they are suddenly willing where they were NOT willing before... that's rape. You can paint it in any pretty colors you want to make it seem less ugly, but in my book rape is rape.

And yet we're still supposed to believe that this monster is not only funny, but that he deserves to have MORE THAN ONE ep dedicated to him? Is this a taste of what to expect in the future of the show?

Wolf Eire
December 6th, 2006, 09:10 AM
I didn't realize that I was being held accountable. But I will take a stab at this anyway, if it pleases the court...just for fun.

Ken I did say it wasn't directed at you personally. Unfortunately you've put yourself in the firing line.:o


I don't think we said anywhere that ALL the women were after Lucious.

There were women who happened to be particularly head over heels after him in an unrealistic fashion and it's been more than suggested in both episodes they had no qualms about sleeping with Lucius. The insinuation was not that the women were happily married but that they fell for him so much they were cheating on their husbands unable to fight off their urges. The women he gets also always happen to be the best looking of the village and most scantily dressed. It sends out bad messages about women and objectifies them. I'm not a conservative or a feminist but I think the way SGA has dealt with this has been pretty poor.


Is there not basis for hero worship in the real world.

There is, but not like this on a micro scale. Stargate doesn't deal with it in a proper fashion but just shows a bunch of cleavage bursting women fawning over a big ugly lug who has not done enough to merit the women changing their minds about him so rapidly en masse with such desire.




Ken C (stands for Cuperus -- not Cooper)

Apologies about that.

Alipeeps
December 6th, 2006, 09:12 AM
Also, the pilot episode of "Torchwood" has one of the cast regulars- yes, one of the "heroes" - using a magic perfume that makes woman (and Men) throw themselves at him. And he takes FULL advantage. But I've seen no cry of rape in that instance.


Oooh, Ken. Can open.... worms everywhere! :lol:

You were obviously lucky enough not to peek into the Torchwood episode discussion thread at that point cos that ep kinda re-sparked the whole "rape" debate from Irresistible and there were a lot of cries of rape etc. Kudos to you for giving your thoughts on the issue and for presenting the writers' thinking behind the ep - you will find however that people's views are extremely polarised on this issue... so please don't take anything to heart.. I know we all love that you come in here to discuss the ep and these issues etc in here, no matter how heated those discussions might get at times...

I note no-one has actually responded to your points about e.g. The Nutty Professor etc yet - or to my earlier point about the Lynx advert (and that advert, in my opinion, is a relevant comparison in that it is obviously supposed to be funny/entertaining. So why is no-one complaining that it promotes drugging women for sexual gratification or that it trivialises rape?)

Wraith Scientist
December 6th, 2006, 09:16 AM
Also, the pilot episode of "Torchwood" has one of the cast regulars- yes, one of the "heroes" - using a magic perfume that makes woman (and Men) throw themselves at him. And he takes FULL advantage. But I've seen no cry of rape in that instance.

Here's the discussion thread about that:-

Torchwood- Owen Harper & his actions (spoilers) (http://forum.gateworld.net/showthread.php?t=37003)

ken_is_here
December 6th, 2006, 09:17 AM
This is just so dissappointing to read.

I wouldn't call Owen a hero and there was alot of controversy about his actions. Most people instantly hated him and still do. Plus the tone of the episode was completely different then what you guys were selling for Irresistable. Everything Changes wasn't a comedic episode, it was an all out drama.

All I'm sayin is that the LOVE POTION is a timeless story device, and that in this case it is being over-analysed to prove that a fictional character you dislike is a serial rapist - and that we, the writers think that is funny.

Nobody thinks rape is funny - we never said anything about rape - we simply used the love potion as it is always used throughout literature and entertainment - as a device (comedic or otherwise) to transform a social leper into a stud-muffin. (ala Nutty Professor - and a million other examples.) At least with our version, he is painted as a villain. And he gets his come-uppance at the end -- he doesn't win the heart of the girl he alledgedly raped (as in Nutty Professor)

By the way, I'm not picking on your opinion, or even saying it is wrong. I'm just adding another layer to a moral debate. So don't feel like this is me defending the episode or character -- or atticking you in any way. :)

Erised
December 6th, 2006, 09:17 AM
Wow, this was such a bad episode. I was shaking my head for 40 minutes while watching it. Also, I would not call any SGA episode to be so funny, I'd be rolling on the floor. This one was just rediculous, stupid, and not one bit funny. Maybe I should give up watching Atlantis as well.

gooner_diva
December 6th, 2006, 09:18 AM
I'm really glad to see that the fans of Stargate are such a noble breed, really I am. But if you had a phermone (be it spray on, or a tasty beverage) that you could drink, that would make Angelina Jolie (or Brad Pitt - however your tastes may run) fall hopelessly in love with you -- can you honestly say you wouldn't use it. Honestly? Do you have that kind of self control? Because I don't think it would take a villain, or even an inherintly bad person, to lose their self-control when faced with this kind of moral dillemma.
Speak for yourself. Personally, I would restrain myself from having sex with a guy I drugged, not that I would drug anyone in the first place. Why? Because a) it would be rape and I wouldn't be able to live with myself afterwards and b) I would know that I'd be sent to jail by any Western court of law and that in itself would/should be enough of a deterrent. For me, anyway. :rolleyes:

Magical alien herb or date rape drug, same thing. It made those women lose the ability to think straight and make rational decisions. It was stated in Irresistible that they had rejected him before he used the herb. To me that's a clear "no". Cologne? Cologne?! There is no cologne in the world that would make me slave for and have group sex with an unattractive and annoying guy like Lucius. If such a cologne existed, it would be classified as an illegal drug because anything that makes people do something they wouldn't in their sober state is clearly dangerous.

I find it concerning to say the least that Lucius wasn't even a one-episode mishap. The fact that he was deemed funny enough to be brought back so he can "entertain" us again... Jesus. It's really saddening to be reading this.

ken_is_here
December 6th, 2006, 09:19 AM
Here's the discussion thread about that:-

Torchwood- Owen Harper & his actions (spoilers) (http://forum.gateworld.net/showthread.php?t=37003)

I should have been more specific. I saw no cry of rape..because I never really even thought to look.

But good counter-point...I stand corrected on this one.

Wolf Eire
December 6th, 2006, 09:23 AM
It's a while since I saw the Nutty Professor, but didn't the drug turn him not only thin but into another actual person and wasn't the message of the movie that he should have been himself?

ken_is_here
December 6th, 2006, 09:24 AM
Speak for yourself. Personally, I would restrain myself from having sex with a guy I drugged, not that I would drug anyone in the first place. Why? Because a) it would be rape and I wouldn't be able to live with myself afterwards and b) I would know that I'd be sent to jail by any Western court of law and that in itself would/should be enough of a deterrent. For me, anyway. :rolleyes:

Magical alien herb or date rape drug, same thing. It made those women lose the ability to think straight and make rational decisions. It was stated in Irresistible that they had rejected him before he used the herb. To me that's a clear "no". Cologne? Cologne?! There is no cologne in the world that would make me slave for and have group sex with an unattractive and annoying guy like Lucius. If such a cologne existed, it would be classified as an illegal drug because anything that makes people do something they wouldn't in their sober state is clearly dangerous.

I find it concerning to say the least that Lucius wasn't even a one-episode mishap. The fact that he was deemed funny enough to be brought back so he can "entertain" us again... Jesus. It's really saddening to be reading this.
I wasn't speaking for myself -- or for you. I was just making a generalized observation about our society.

You say --"anything that makes people do something they wouldn't do in their sober state is clearly dangerous." You mean like alcohol? You mean like legal alcohol that is ALWAYS making people do something they wouldn't do in their sober state?

I understand you hated the episode. Others did to. And some enjoyed it. Isn't that what personal choice is all about. I'm sorry you were saddened by two episodes featuring Lucious -- but keep in mind that both of these episodes were in the can before the first one aired, So we had no way to get your reaction on the first one, before the second one was finished.

ken_is_here
December 6th, 2006, 09:26 AM
This has been fun all. I enjoyed this...but the script notes I was waiting for are now on my desk so I have to get back to work.

Thanks for the debate!

Ken C

Alipeeps
December 6th, 2006, 09:26 AM
It's a while since I saw the Nutty Professor, but didn't the drug turn him not only thin but into another actual person and wasn't the message of the movie that he should have been himself?

It made him thin - and more physically attractive - and in some ways his personality changed because of the way he looked and the way he was perceived by people. ONe could say the same of Lucius... would he have been as confident, as arrogrant etc if he hadn't had the ego boost of knowing that everyone liked him and found him pleasant to be around?

Edit:


This has been fun all. I enjoyed this...but the script notes I was waiting for are now on my desk so I have to get back to work.

Thanks for the debate!

Ken C

Thanks for your thought-provoking contributions.... hope the work goes well! :D

silence
December 6th, 2006, 09:27 AM
Poor Ken, i can see his side, he was there i really doubt writers were considering all this when they wrote that charcter. But, when you alter someone's state of mind in a way that removes free will.. you make a slave out of that person.
How does one use slave who has no free will is up to person controlling the slave... and i think that was done to show that Lucius is villain, a bad person.

I think writer didn't consider whole rape scenario when making Lucius.

I also think it was wrong to introduce such character into "funny", comedy-like episodes.

Such character doesnt belong there and that's biggest mistake they made.
Person who makes slaves out of people, then abuses his social status (and pays mercenaries to help him keep that status) simply DOESN'T belong in light colored, happy surroundings and "funny" plots... It's totally off...

Personally... i think it would be interesting to have such character, but NOT in a way it was done.

I laughed more in some "serious" episodes (McKay and mrs.Miller, The Return II) then in any with this annoying moron...
Also (IMO) for such character different actor is needed.

The way it was all done shows that TPTB need to rethink their approach.
Specially if it is true that script and what we got was so different in it's essence as Ken himself says...

Wolf Eire
December 6th, 2006, 09:32 AM
It made him thin - and more physically attractive - and in some ways his personality changed because of the way he looked and the way he was perceived by people.

No, I mean he was a different person, period. He went under a different identity and behaved utterly different. Like a Jeckyl/Hyde situation. In many ways the thin alter ego was an obnoxious jerk.

Linzi
December 6th, 2006, 09:32 AM
This has been fun all. I enjoyed this...but the script notes I was waiting for are now on my desk so I have to get back to work.

Thanks for the debate!

Ken C
Thanks for your part in the debate. I actually liked Irresistible, and didn't even think of the rape thing until I came here, to Gateworld, and it was pointed out!!! I guess we all see things differently! I just saw the episode as a light-hearted bit of fun, with a pretty slimey guy taking advantage of people! But, I didn't take it seriously - thus I enjoyed it.
I was still disappointed with Irresponsible though.

SGAFan
December 6th, 2006, 09:35 AM
This has been fun all. I enjoyed this...but the script notes I was waiting for are now on my desk so I have to get back to work.

Thanks for the debate!

Ken C

Ken Thanks for coming around and debating with us. :)

My personal opinion is that it wasn't rape either. I mean heck you can buy pheremone colonge or perfume these days. Not that its as intoxicating as that herb was, but its the real life version of the scifi principle (and isn't good scifi based on some aspect of real life?) Not that I'm overly defending either Irresistible or Irresponsible, I think both are two of the weakest eps of the season (just IMHO, I prefer eps such as Common Ground, Sateda and Phantoms) but I have a hard time seeing the rape angle. Just my opinion, I'm certainly not begrugding other people theirs. ;)

Wolf Eire
December 6th, 2006, 09:36 AM
This has been fun all. I enjoyed this...but the script notes I was waiting for are now on my desk so I have to get back to work.

Thanks for the debate!

Ken C

Thanks for a proper discussion, Ken. Good luck at work.

gooner_diva
December 6th, 2006, 09:38 AM
You say --"anything that makes people do something they wouldn't do in their sober state is clearly dangerous." You mean like alcohol? You mean like legal alcohol that is ALWAYS making people do something they wouldn't do in their sober state?
Thanks for the debate. I just want to address one last point you make about alcohol. First of all, it's someone's personal choice to get wasted to the point where they can't think straight. These women didn't have a choice. He made decisions for them. He stripped them of their free will. In my opinion, that's rape. Also, I never said alcohol (in unreasonable quantities) wasn't dangerous, and let's not forget that it was not always legal in the US, for example, not that legality has anything to do with legitimacy. I'm sure there's no law against alien herbs either, but is it the right thing to use them? Not in my opinion.

ToasterOnFire
December 6th, 2006, 09:41 AM
What Lucius did was rape. He took a drug and that drug removed the ability of the women to give their consent. No consent = rape. Changing your appearance or even slapping on those cheap-smelling colognes like Axe may change how women perceive you but those actions do NOT take away their ability to give consent. It's not a valid comparison.

(ETA: Wolf Eire, I completely agree with your comments about the women in this ep.)


Two more things about the ep:

1) I noticed that when the team (the men really, not Teyla :rolleyes:) discussed their heroes they were all nicely stereotyped to the characters. John likes fast cars so he gets Evil Knievel, Rodney likes brains so he gets Batman, Carson is Scottish so his hero is also from Scotland, Ronon is a tough guy so his hero is also tough. I imagine that was the easy route to take, but it would have been nice to see them give answers that didn't fall so cleanly into their stereotypes. It would have added to the complexities of the characters.

2) This ep featured another team clip where Shep and/or Rodney are explaining a quirky feature of Earth (TV, Knievel, etc) and Teyla and/or Ronon react with confusion or eyerolling. It would be nice to see the reverse happen more often - have the team stroll along while Teyla or Ronon tell something interesting about their people and have Shep or Rodney react to that. We know plenty about Earth, it would be nice to learn more about the quirks of the Athosians and other people from the PG.


(Is that an Ergo Proxy ad at the top of my screen? Oh joy!! :D)

prion
December 6th, 2006, 09:45 AM
Have to agree with the worst ep EVER (though there are a few that come a close second) but it did have its highlights. I appreciate Ken C taking the time to give us a little breakdown but I think the ep speaks for itself. ...
This ep given A LOT of tweaks could have been a lot better but thats this show all over. Lots of potential, nice ideas poor written and excuted. No one sane could say Luscius was anything BUT a poorly conceived character. And its pretty obvious his return is purely down to the supposed 'star name' pull of Richard Kind (though he's a great actor...always remember him as 'Fish Face' in SAAB). But they could have upped the lightheated suddenly turning dark and dramatic theme (rather then disturbing undertone of Irresistable).

And what is it with Kolya THREATENING to shoot people, but never actually pulling the damn trigger? Now that would have made an interesting twist, if he did actually shoot Teyla, Carson, McKay (well actually give the poor man a rest) or Ronon. That would have upped the anti. I'm also completely dismayed by the characters utter wasteful death. He was fantastic in The Storm/The Eye. A truely classic villian. The rest of his appearences have been pretty good but never truely reached the same high as s1. I guess he's just another in a long line of characters they got bored of, disposed cheaply.



Poor Ken's probably chugging down some Rolaids or something with the posts we fans have made about this episode, but well, we're being honest here about the show we love.

Yeah, I would have liked to have seen Kolya shoot one of the team - not fatally of course, but a leg wound could be life-threatening and very painful and insert some drama, otherwise....


That epasoide left alot of ends eg:
Kolia may not have died (I hope Robert Davi is great I want him back)
Cowin's personal guard attempting to over through Ladon's goverment
If a fight between thoes factions happens Atlantis may help Ladon
out since he is an allied head of state
And Lucia's will find another way to scam of another planet\

One would hope Lucius would enter the gate address of a black hole ;) Kolya's dead. To not be dead would imply our team is downright dense and stupid, etc. etc for not ensuring that a man who has killed their own, tortured them, threatened them, etc. is dead. Plus it would make beckett a horrid doctor to have just left a man bleeding to death on the ground (as that wound was definitely life-threatening if not fatal and I would not trust any of those village idiots to even apply a bandaid to a cut!)


Also, for those who felt that Irresistible was nothing more than rape, this episode is worse in some ways. All the hot women are falling over themselves to come worship Lucius just because he saved the village. This time he didn't even have to drug them! What are the writers saying about women? That they're fickle nymphomaniacs who sleep with men at the drop of a hat? Lucius is supposed to be a big ugly lug and women (who happen to be scantily clad) are even cheating on their husbands to come sleep with him? I think that shows a distinct lack of respect for women and they're essentially behaving as characters do in a porn movie.

Yeah, that part about women cheating on their hubbies to be with him? Aieee! Give the wraith the gate address and stop them from breeding! Yes, the writing really doesn't speak very highly of women...


I liked it :)

Er, can you extrapolate more? Just curious if you liked it all or just some parts. Some bits were good, but overall, the entire storyline just didn't do anything for me.


Wow. I've had better filling in a week old doughnut. Is it me, or did Kolya put on some weight?
I have to say Lucius wasn't as annoying as last time. I could actually tolerate him until he opened his mouth.
All in all, this was a great episode. I can now definitly place an episode in my ranking of favourites just above 200 and Irresistable to take the place of "Third Worst Show in the Franchise of Stargate." Though I have a feeling that Sunday is going to be an even worse filler than this one...

What also upset me was that we FINALLY saw a silencer on a P90, and he didn't even use it! Heck, it was there for 20 seconds, then gone! Every SG member should have a silencer for their P90. How many missions involve stealth operations when the enemy is near? 90%? At least!? I don't know if its worse that they've never used them before, or that they brought it in and ditched it within a minute. What an amazing disappointment this episode was.


Er, yeah, I guess being out there on his own has packed a few pounds on Kolya. I wasn't sure but now that you mention it....

Since I know so little about "Sunday," I'm hoping for something good. Well, anything will be better than this episode.

I'll have to go check out the silencer on the P90. Sorta lame to have one and not use it....

FoolishPleasure
December 6th, 2006, 09:53 AM
1) I noticed that when the team (the men really, not Teyla :rolleyes:) discussed their heroes they were all nicely stereotyped to the characters.
I wanted to hear about Teyla's hero/heroine. Why did she get shortchanged. . .again? She asked the questions, but then should have given her own answer. I guess TPTB ran out of time as they had to get an extra scene or two with scumbag Lucius. :rolleyes:


2) This ep featured another team clip where Shep and/or Rodney are explaining a quirky feature of Earth (TV, Knievel, etc) and Teyla and/or Ronon react with confusion or eyerolling. It would be nice to see the reverse happen more often - have the team stroll along while Teyla or Ronon tell something interesting about their people and have Shep or Rodney react to that. We know plenty about Earth, it would be nice to learn more about the quirks of the Athosians and other people from the PG.
This would have been an easy way for the writers to give us backstory about our characters way back in season 1. This would have worked especially well for developing Teyla, who wasn't much more than the token alien chick for two years.

prion
December 6th, 2006, 09:57 AM
It wasn't an "explanation." It was just my opinion. We all have them. What I see as a great script, others might not.

As for the idea of rape...just to be clear (again, this is only how I see it...right or wrong) Lucious wasn't drugging these woman -- he was taking a phermone that made him come across as sexy. Are we doing any less when we slap on cologne for a night out (well...I don't wear cologne, but...) or put on make up (Don't do that either) to make ourselves as desirable as possible? Lucious found a way to kick it up to 11 -- and which one of you could say you wouldn't do the same thing if you had that ability. Giving someone else a drug is one thing -- but altering the way others see you is another.

(I'm not saying it is acceptable..I'm just saying this is his justification.)

Well, from my point of view... Lucius used a chemical substance to alter people's perception of him (and a highly powerful one at that, complete with withdrawal symptoms). While we mere mortals here on earth <G> dabble with makeup, botox, and the like, that's only 'packaging'. In Lucius' case, you can't make a silk purse out of a sow's ear.


The other thing here is that Lucious is not a good guy...he's essentially a villain. But our team has no jurisdiction to punish him. At the end of Irrisistable they turn him over to the mercy of his fellow villagers (who are no longer under the influence)...to be punished. He is then exiled as punishment. The idea here is to have a guy who comes across as likable and harmless -- but show that he has a dark side as well. If he doesn't get what he wants...he will take it. He is actually very smart and conniving. (He took time to read much of Atlantis' database - when he could have been partying it up)


I think Lucius ran for the hills when his 'wives' decided to deal with him ;) I only wish that in this episode, his more reprehensible side had come through more clearly. The guy's clearly a menace.



Now he is trying to start over - But he is still Lucious so he can't do that without having something that makes him special. He can't function without being the centre of attention. So he finds a way to be a hero to his people. he was inspired by Sheppard to be a real hero -- but unlike Sheppard he doesn't know what it means to be a hero. Yes, he is cheating...because he's scared to death of being lost in the crowd. Does that make him unlikable? Sure...why not. He's doing more harm than good to his people... but he's not trying to hurt them (he really thinks he is their protector) he's just terrified of going back to being a normal shlub who had no friends.


I saw it as Lucius starting over, but doing nothing to alter his old ways of deception to get what he wanted - he used the Ancient shield to become a 'hero' and to entice some of the wives to commit adultery against their husbands. So he wasn't starting over as in turning a new leaf, but simply moving to a new territory - inasmuch as rats do when they're evicted from an abode.

Hopefully the more vocal 'wench' (as she was referred to in sides) will take over the village of idiots (sorry, sorry, but these people were worse than sheep) and boot Lucius out of town. Wherever Lucius ends up next, he is going to continue his deceptive ways which, in the end, will end up with someone getting hurt in some way.

The whole episode could have been a lot better if it had been more dramatic, shown perhaps his people turning against him, instead of making the viewers watch the painfully stereotypical villager going 'oh, I know what he means, we should stand up for ourselves.' I'm not asking for the dark of BSG but something with a little more depth.

prion
December 6th, 2006, 09:59 AM
Quick question: WHO was Beckett's hero?? I didn't catch the name.

Erised
December 6th, 2006, 10:20 AM
Quick question: WHO was Beckett's hero?? I didn't catch the name.

Well, see, they don't tell us who was Teyla's hero. Why? Because she'a a woman and guys' heroes are way cooler and important? And who cares about a doctor who is leaving anyway? Let's just focus on the chracters that the majority likes, eh? (or they think we do.)

I gotta give this episode one plus though... no kirking.

Wraith_Hunter
December 6th, 2006, 10:21 AM
Quick question: WHO was Beckett's hero?? I didn't catch the name.

I think P McG needs to work on parts of the accent a little more. I come from 5 miles away from where he was born & I had to play it back twice & only got part of it.

After a brief search I think he was talking about Angus Macaskill. An 8ft giant who was born here around 180 years ago or something like that. Who by reports was uber strong.

http://rampantscotland.com/know/blknow4.htm

He may have been talking about someone else but I think that's it!

Wraith_Hunter
December 6th, 2006, 10:25 AM
Well, see, they don't tell us who was Teyla's hero. Why? Because she'a a woman and guys' heroes are way cooler and important? And who cares about a doctor who is leaving anyway? Let's just focus on the chracters that the majority likes, eh? (or they think we do.)

I gotta give this episode one plus though... no kirking.

Perhaps the people who like his character are the ones who care!

Just curious but how the hell do you know what the majority likes. Your Liz isn't a majority character is she by all accounts!

ShadowMaat
December 6th, 2006, 10:27 AM
If I could take a drug (or administer one) that would make the guy of my dreams sleep with me, would I? No. Because I'd feel rotten and dishonest and I'd know he only did it because of the drug, not because he had any feelings for me. While mindless sex might be okay for some, it's not for me. *shrug*

As for the ep... Kolya was one of my favorite characters. I'm sorry he's gone. Personally I think Lucius is the one who should have died.

jenks
December 6th, 2006, 10:28 AM
In the first episode, Irresistible, all the plot was based on the drug he used to forced people to please him.


I've seen the episode, you definition of forcing must be different to mine.



It doesn't matter if they didn't drink or eat something with the herb, their thoughts and behaviors were influenced by something else.

So what?


The woman in the village clearly said she refused many times to sleep with him, only marrying him after she was drugged.

She wasn't drugged, it's not even a drug.


She said she didn't give consent.

Before he drank the potion, afterwards she clearly did.


He drugged her to have her.

:rolleyes:


To push her to say yes when she didn't want to. It only has one name.

Perhaps, but it's not rape.

Bottom line, he is entitled to drink whatever he likes, they gave consent - it's not rape.

FoolishPleasure
December 6th, 2006, 10:33 AM
Perhaps the people who like his character are the ones who care!

Just curious but how the hell do you know what the majority likes. Your Liz isn't a majority character is she by all accounts!

I think Erised is just being sarcastic. She is a big Weir fan but also laments the poor usage of Teyla, both here and on LJ. She's also very unhappy about Beckett's future.

lissa1000
December 6th, 2006, 11:02 AM
http://i97.photobucket.com/albums/l221/freyasd/000_0003-1.jpg
Binky's not happy about seeing that sleazy Lucius and his team of idiot nymphos again. He says he'll jump if they turn up in another episode. You don't want that on your conscience do you?

Erised
December 6th, 2006, 11:03 AM
Just curious but how the hell do you know what the majority likes. Your Liz isn't a majority character is she by all accounts!

I'm sorry, I should have put [sarcasm] in there, because guess what, it was. Where did you get Liz? I wasn't even thinking of her. All I was saying is that writers think everyone likes Sheppard, McKay, and Ronon, so they are the only ones they try to develop... jeeezz...

McSwift
December 6th, 2006, 12:52 PM
I LOVE THIS EPISODE!

Did anyone see the look on Teyla's face when Lucius kicked all those bad guys' asses? That was priceless!

FallenAngelII
December 6th, 2006, 12:54 PM
Is it just me or is it that wherever Lucius goes, villagers collectively lose half of their IQ? Even after John's revelation and Lucius failing utterly to fight off the Genii and telling the villagers to fend for themselves this time, they were utterly stupid and came up with the rationalization that Lucius was trying to teach them to be independant.

What a bunch of morons.

Luz
December 6th, 2006, 01:06 PM
Before he drank the potion, afterwards she clearly did.
Exactly, maybe you have another definition of rape, but using a herb to sleep with a woman against their will, when you clearly know they wouldn't touch you with a ten foot pole if they were in their right mind sounds like rape to me.



Bottom line, he is entitled to drink whatever he likes, they gave consent - it's not rape.
What he drank influenced the way those women acted, took aways their will, their right to choose who they wanted to sleep with. They didn't like that scumbag before he took that herb, after he took it he got them to sleep with him. The only difference between the date rape drug and what Lucius did is that in this case, he took the drug, but the drug worked on the women.
You said so yourself, before he drank that potion he couldn't get any of the women to sleep with him, after he took it they did.
One woman doesn't want to be with a man, said man slips a drug on her drink to make her more 'agreeable', in this case it was: women don't want to even touch a disgusting man, so he drinks a potion that makes them more 'agreeable', he drugged them and raped them.


I'm sorry, I should have put [sarcasm] in there, because guess what, it was. Where did you get Liz? I wasn't even thinking of her. All I was saying is that writers think everyone likes Sheppard, McKay, and Ronon, so they are the only ones they try to develop... jeeezz...

I care about Elizabeth, that's another thing, as much as I love the team, it bugs me how when it's a team episode Elizabeth gets shoved in the background, two seconds of Elizabeth on an episode sort of make it a bit bleh to me. Maybe be tptb should realize that yeah, a lot of fans are Sheppard, and McKay fans, but some of us do like the other characters too.

Lord Willow
December 6th, 2006, 01:07 PM
one of the most borring episode for atlantis so far IMO, from all the cool stories they could chosse to make a sequel why in gods name did they chose that one?
the only good part about it was that finally shepard got to kill that annoying genye leader, kolya....