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Luz
December 7th, 2006, 01:10 PM
Hey, where'd all the crabby, grrrr people go...it's not as fun without you.

I was just thinking that since with M & M at the helmet this show won't go past season four anyway, then why bother?. Season four will probably be more of the same dumb jokes, recycled villains, degrading women (because what are women for if not eye candy, right?), I should probably thank them for putting a damper on my enthusiasm for this show, I was becoming way to obsessed, one or two more episodes like this and it will be far easier than I ever thought it would be to stop watching and never going back.

Amalthia
December 7th, 2006, 01:13 PM
Well someone hasn't been reading this thread...


BSG did the rape thing 100% better than Irresistable. I don't really consider it that controversial. but having the two main male leads fall in love and be in a relationships that involves sex. Oh yeah, that will never NEVER happen in a MILLION years on a show like this. they may flirt with some darker issues but that's it.

Amalthia
December 7th, 2006, 01:15 PM
I was just thinking that since with M & M at the helmet this show won't go past season four anyway, then why bother?. Season four will probably be more of the same dumb jokes, recycled villains, degrading women (because what are women for if not eye candy, right?), I should probably thank them for putting a damper on my enthusiasm for this show, I was becoming way to obsessed, one or two more episodes like this and it will be far easier than I ever thought it would be to stop watching and never going back.

It's turning into something similar to Andromeda (not season 1 andromeda).
SGA has potential to be very good but this episode reminded me again it also has potential to be very bad. And I wouldn't bet real money on there being a 5th season with those two writers in charge if this is an example of the types of stories they are going to be writing.

Wolf Eire
December 7th, 2006, 01:15 PM
Btw, on another issue, was anyone wondering when Lucius was being bullied by Kolya and the Genii why he didn't just beat the crap out of all of them using the shield as a powerful glove? How did he actually end up having his head dunked into the well (if we ignore the confusing science bit). I know it would have killed the plot but it's a feeling I couldn't stop ignoring throughout the remainder of the episode.

ken_is_here
December 7th, 2006, 01:21 PM
I was just thinking that since with M & M at the helmet this show won't go past season four anyway, then why bother?. Season four will probably be more of the same dumb jokes, recycled villains, degrading women (because what are women for if not eye candy, right?), I should probably thank them for putting a damper on my enthusiasm for this show, I was becoming way to obsessed, one or two more episodes like this and it will be far easier than I ever thought it would be to stop watching and never going back.

Ahhh, there you are. I missed you. :)

Seriously, you have nothing to worry about. Just pretend this episode never happened, and enjoy the rest of the season. There are some much darker themes coming up. (including both my upcoming eps.) lots of gut-wrenching drama, and tons of character development for our leads.

Ken

lord-anubis
December 7th, 2006, 01:22 PM
Btw, on another issue, was anyone wondering when Lucius was being bullied by Kolya and the Genii why he didn't just beat the crap out of all of them using the shield as a powerful glove? How did he actually end up having his head dunked into the well (if we ignore the confusing science bit). I know it would have killed the plot but it's a feeling I couldn't stop ignoring throughout the remainder of the episode.

yeah i was thinking and yell the the same thing to the tv. maybe he was worryed if he fought back they hurt one of the people in the town

Wolf Eire
December 7th, 2006, 01:23 PM
Ken, can you write in the resurrection of Kolya into one of your episodes? That'll make up for any annoyance caused.;)

Wolf Eire
December 7th, 2006, 01:25 PM
yeah i was thinking and yell the the same thing to the tv. maybe he was worryed if he fought back they hurt one of the people in the town

That crossed my mind but I don't think he cared. He had already been warned not to approach in case the village was burned by them by the SGA team and he still went out and taunted them. I can't remember exactly but it seems he just ends up being held in the well out of nowhere. We've seen from earlier in the episode he could kick Genii ass with the shield if needed.

ken_is_here
December 7th, 2006, 01:25 PM
BSG did the rape thing 100% better than Irresistable. I don't really consider it that controversial. but having the two main male leads fall in love and be in a relationships that involves sex. Oh yeah, that will never NEVER happen in a MILLION years on a show like this. they may flirt with some darker issues but that's it.

Well...considering we didn't do "the rape thing" at ALL in Irresistable -- I'd say BSG did it one million % better. and Veronica Mars REALLY nailed it.

psychofilly
December 7th, 2006, 01:25 PM
Hey, where'd all the crabby, grrrr people go...it's not as fun without you.

We're here. We've just moved on to the pornier aspects of the show. Can't stay mad forever you know. So... can you write in some skin?:p

lord-anubis
December 7th, 2006, 01:31 PM
That crossed my mind but I don't think he cared. He had already been warned not to approach in case the village was burned by them by the SGA team and he still went out and taunted them. I can't remember exactly but it seems he just ends up being held in the well out of nowhere. We've seen from earlier in the episode he could kick Genii ass with the shield if needed.

yeah but rember he paid thous guys to get beat up so we don't really know if he coudl have fought his way out. maybe even with the sheild he was to scared to fight the genii

Wolf Eire
December 7th, 2006, 01:32 PM
yeah but rember he paid thous guys to get beat up so we don't really know if he coudl have fought his way out. maybe even with the sheild he was to scared to fight the genii

He broke teeth and a wrist, it seemed to work as a glove of sorts. The guys were pissed off he beat them so hard.

ken_is_here
December 7th, 2006, 01:33 PM
Ken, can you write in the resurrection of Kolya into one of your episodes? That'll make up for any annoyance caused.;)

Funny you should mention that... I did pitch one already. BUt it didn't fly. And rightfully so...it was crap. I just wanted Kolya back, but my story was pretty out there... (the less said about it the better, quite frankly) So you never know... If the right pitch comes along...

Needless to say, I ended up writing Submersion instead, a Teyla story which I originally pitched as a follow up to the Gift -- but which morphed away from that a bit along the way.

Ken

the dancer of spaz
December 7th, 2006, 01:34 PM
Well...considering we didn't do "the rape thing" at ALL in Irresistable -- I'd say BSG did it one million % better. and Veronica Mars REALLY nailed it.

Hi Ken, :)

I can understand if the thought of rape didn't cross your collective minds when you guys were pitching the ideas and producing the episodes (admittedly, it didn't really hit me until I got on the boards and saw where people were coming from), however it IS a big issue for many people here - particularly women. There was an immediate outcry from fans on this site after the episode aired, so it didn't simply go over people's heads.

Of course there's no way to turn back time and fix it, and I don't expect TPTB to publicly apologize for offending anyone. Still, there are a LOT of female fans who are very devoted to both series, and a lot of us are online. There are also a lot of conscientious male fans who fit the same bill. I would hope that it's addressed at some point behind closed doors, so as to ensure that something like that doesn't happen again.

To be honest, I think there's a severe lack of critical checks and balances in the writers' room when it comes to developing an idea and conveying it, which would explain why an issue like this was evidently missed by the nine or ten writers, producers and directors on the show. It also would explain why there does appear to be such a discrepancy between how male characters are portrayed and how female characters are portrayed. :o It's just something to think about.

psychofilly
December 7th, 2006, 01:36 PM
Needless to say, I ended up writing Submersion instead, a Teyla story which I originally pitched as a follow up to the Gift -- but which morphed away from that a bit along the way.

Ken

Is it still Teyla-centric?

Linzi
December 7th, 2006, 01:38 PM
Ahhh, there you are. I missed you. :)

Seriously, you have nothing to worry about. Just pretend this episode never happened, and enjoy the rest of the season. There are some much darker themes coming up. (including both my upcoming eps.) lots of gut-wrenching drama, and tons of character development for our leads.

Ken
Now that's what I want to see!!!!!!! I can, and will put this episode behind me.
I watched Irresponsible again today. Perhaps I did...get a little carried away about it. There were some good character moments hidden in there, it's true. I'm still disappointed about Kolya's demise, and really am annoyed that not more was made of Sheppard's reaction to seeing Kolya again after what transpired in Common Ground. Common Ground was a fabulous episode, and this one could have been such good drama because of the events from it. Sadly that was not to be. I still think that was a big mistake. Sometimes, as an Atlantis fan, it is really frustrating that I often feel there are no ramifications from events that affect the characters. I craved seeing Sheppard struggle to control himself when seeing Kolya, and would have loved to have seen a more epic showdown between him and Kolya.
As for the shield? Well, you're right, sometimes we fans can get a little bogged down by what we've seen on the show previously. Often I can let things go, but I suppose I was just so disappointed in the Kolya/Sheppard parts that the shield just tipped me over the edge!!!
I'm looking forward to The Ark and Submersion tremendously! :)

FoolishPleasure
December 7th, 2006, 01:38 PM
Ken, get M&M on here and we'll have a grand old debate.;)
Joe used to post here quite a bit. It might be fun for him to show up again. . .for old time's sake. ;)


Hey, where'd all the crabby, grrrr people go...it's not as fun without you.

I took my Prozac today. Honest. :D

Actually, I think the venting got the hostility out of our systems. Now we're just waiting around until next week's beatings. ;)

ladysarah
December 7th, 2006, 01:42 PM
The rapist is back.

You know what would be really funny? Maybe they could get Teyla and Elizabeth to wear those short little skirts and thick eyeliner like they did in the original Star Trek?

Yeah, that would be hilarious. And Teyla can be the glorified receptionist, perhaps Weir can be the nurse.

Absolute hilarity, and so in keeping with the writer's 13 year old fanboy mentality.

ken_is_here
December 7th, 2006, 01:46 PM
Hi Ken, :)

I can understand if the thought of rape didn't cross your collective minds when you guys were pitching the ideas and producing the episodes (admittedly, it didn't really hit me until I got on the boards and saw where people were coming from), however it IS a big issue for many people here - particularly women. There was an immediate outcry from fans on this site after the episode aired, so it didn't simply go over people's heads.

Of course there's no way to turn back time and fix it, and I don't expect TPTB to publicly apologize for offending anyone. Still, there are a LOT of female fans who are very devoted to both series, and a lot of us are online. There are also a lot of conscientious male fans who fit the same bill. I would hope that it's addressed at some point behind closed doors, so as to ensure that something like that doesn't happen again.

To be honest, I think there's a severe lack of critical checks and balances in the writers' room when it comes to developing an idea and conveying it, which would explain why an issue like this was evidently missed by the nine or ten writers, producers and directors on the show. It also would explain why there does appear to be such a discrepancy between how male characters are portrayed and how female characters are portrayed. :o It's just something to think about.

I agree with all of this.

To me it seems the negative reaction comes not from Lucious using the drug (He is a villain in Irresistable afterall) but that it was in a comedy episode. I don't think this was a case of us missing the issue -- it was more that we were trying something new -- having a silly episode juxtiposed with darker undertones -- and in doing so we couldn't have accounted for the reaction. (There isn't really a frame of reference for this) As I mentioned earlier, Torchwood did the same thing, only with one of the core team -- and I'm sure they had no idea what sort of negative reaction there would be either. We just try different things. Some work - like common ground for instance, we were very concerned that the torture angle would be too dark for our show -- and some don't. But if we never try anything new, the whole concept would get stale.

Melyanna
December 7th, 2006, 01:46 PM
No, bluealien is just confused.

That one woman "admitted" to turning Lucius down repeatedly before he took the drug.
No, she's right. One woman said she was ashamed that she'd only slept with him once before everyone realized how wonderful he was. It's a complete inference for me, but I get the impression that she wouldn't have slept with him again, and that he'd badgered a lot of women before finding the drug.


Nobody was making fun of or even thinking about sexual assault when this was written. It was an innocent classic love potion device, as used in countless other instances -- and I think it is a shame that the world has become so PC that a fictional tale gets this kind of scrutiny. If you applied this to any movie - you would never be able to enjoy anything again. When I saw Con-air, at the end people were rooting for Steve Buscemi to escape. Everyone in the theatre cheered when he was free at the end. The CHEERED for a murdering pedophile. Not becuase they supported pedophiles -- but because he was just a character in a movie, and he was funny. And what about the people who cheer on the pirates in Pirates of the caribean -- did no one get the memo? Pirates are rapists and muderers -- but there are all the families with their kids grinning and laughing along with the pirates. Because it is FICTION.

Fictional tales always get this kind of scrutiny, because we in the audience are taking the material in with our own perspective, not necessarily the author's intended perspective. I'm not you, so I can't look at your work through your perspective. I went to a high school production of Romeo and Juliet several years ago, and at the beginning of the play one of the cast members came on stage and gave a mini-speech on how suicide is not the solution to life's problems. Was that what Shakespeare intended to happen at the beginning of his play? No, probably not, but when we take the work out of the author's perspective (which we're going to, because we're not the author), things happen differently than the author intended. Writers write things without realizing every possible way a statement could be construed. That's not necessarily a bad thing, but you have to be prepared for the audience to react differently than you hoped. If you're not, you end up like Anne Rice yelling at people who left negative reviews at Amazon, telling them they're interrogating the text from the wrong perspective.

In this case, and in the case of your examples, I think it's a matter of context and what's actually shown.

Have you noticed how love potions generally backfire? A Midsummer Night's Dream is one of my favorite plays, but the potions are administered with good intentions and everything is set back to rights before either of the men tries to force himself on Helena. There's a love potion of sorts in the Little Mermaid story (can't remember if it's in more than just the Disney version) but again, that goes really badly for the villain. You can compare it to a fairy tale plot device all you want, but have you ever read the original printed versions of these fairy tales, whether they're the brothers Grimm or the Italian version? People are punished by being stuffed into barrels and rolled off cliffs. They don't get a joke about nasty divorces.

The pirate example is ridiculous. Do you really think Disney is trying to portray historically realistic pirates? Do you really think it's implied that Jack Sparrow is off raping women left and right when the camera isn't on him? We can only judge by what the material itself presents us. We can take what we know of historical realities and try to infer things, try to apply a context to it, but in the end we can only judge by what's in front of us.

(I've never seen Con-Air. I don't have a fundamental objection to criminals-as-protagonists stories, but I have serious doubts that I would be so cheerful for a protagonist who's a pedophile, no matter how funny, as will probably be obvious by the end of the next paragraph.)

My objection, by and large, was not the "innocent classic love potion device". It was a failure by the writers to recognize that my goodness, there are consent issues here! The classic stories involving love potions that I remember don't involve people getting married, the potion being exposed, and everyone being all fine and dandy with it afterward. The closest analogy to the situation in Irresistible that I can think of is a friend of mine who was raped when she was a child, before she understood anything about sex. She certainly wasn't capable of understanding what was going on and wasn't able to give consent, whether she was asked or not. Her ability to choose for herself was impaired by reason of age. When she hit sixteen and was considered legally able to choose for herself, had that man asked her, she might have said yes. (We'll never know because he's been in jail for years, thank the Lord.) But the point is, the fact that she might have said yes when not impaired doesn't make it right to take advantage of the impairment.

The women in Irresistible (and the men, for that matter, though theirs was more of a forced servitude – slavery, if you will) were also impaired in their ability to choose. The fact that one of them said yes before doesn't make it right for him to take advantage. Slipping a drug into a woman's drink that makes her less likely to say no doesn't make it right, and that's how I saw the drug in Irresistible.

Argh, sorry for the length of this, but this really is my last point. A lot of the people I know who had problems with it have expressed a belief that the episode could have been saved had the ending been different. We didn't need to see anything, but had the episode ended with a remark that one of those "wives" had beaten the crap out of him instead of a joke about nasty divorces, I think a lot of us, myself included, would have thought, "Oh, okay. They're acknowledging that at least some part of this wasn't funny." I thought the episode was going there when Lucius started threatening Sheppard toward the end. Instead, we got more jokes.

And I realize that this has little to do with Irresponsible, aside from the character – I haven't seen the episode and don't plan on watching it because I hated Lucius so much – and I realize that Irresponsible was written before Irresistible aired. I understand that the writers weren't intentionally trying to harass the viewers, but for those of us out there who were uncomfortable with how the whole matter was handled in Irresistible, his reappearance later in the season feels a bit like salt in open wounds. Stings a bit and makes us unhappy.

Again, sorry for the length of this. But you seem like a reasonable guy, and I felt like I needed to take a bit of space to explain my opinion properly. I think it all comes down to context and perspective in the end, and I wasn't convinced enough by the context we were given to buy the author's perspective that Lucius was funny and harmless in Irresistible.

Sheppard's Delight
December 7th, 2006, 01:47 PM
Funny you should mention that... I did pitch one already. BUt it didn't fly. And rightfully so...it was crap. I just wanted Kolya back, but my story was pretty out there... (the less said about it the better, quite frankly) So you never know... If the right pitch comes along...

Needless to say, I ended up writing Submersion instead, a Teyla story which I originally pitched as a follow up to the Gift -- but which morphed away from that a bit along the way.

Ken

Well even if your idea was 'crap' I still hope that the resurrection of Kolya does happen at some time in the future!!!!! Regardless of what I think about aspects of Irresponsible probably the fact Kolya is 'dead' is the thing that makes me most upset about it!

Ummm so Submersion is a Teyla story ....Teyla has been a little neglected so far this season although things are starting to look better for her!

psychofilly
December 7th, 2006, 01:48 PM
You know what would be really funny? Maybe they could get Teyla and Elizabeth to wear those short little skirts and thick eyeliner like they did in the original Star Trek?

Yeah, that would be hilarious. And Teyla can be the glorified receptionist, perhaps Weir can be the nurse.

Ah hell, now you've got me wanting to see this as either a fic or manip. Teyla would rock the little red uniform.

ken_is_here
December 7th, 2006, 01:48 PM
Is it still Teyla-centric?

Well, I would say it is more Teyla-driven, as it is a team ep that heavily features Teyla.

ken_is_here
December 7th, 2006, 01:51 PM
The rapist is back.

You know what would be really funny? Maybe they could get Teyla and Elizabeth to wear those short little skirts and thick eyeliner like they did in the original Star Trek?

Yeah, that would be hilarious. And Teyla can be the glorified receptionist, perhaps Weir can be the nurse.

Absolute hilarity, and so in keeping with the writer's 13 year old fanboy mentality.

I smell a spin-off!!

Pitry
December 7th, 2006, 01:51 PM
Actually, I think the venting got the hostility out of our systems. Now we're just waiting around until next week's beatings. ;)

Wht the pessimism, tho? Maybe next week it's flowers? :)

Sheppard's Delight
December 7th, 2006, 01:51 PM
Now that's what I want to see!!!!!!! I can, and will put this episode behind me.
I watched Irresponsible again today. Perhaps I did...get a little carried away about it. There were some good character moments hidden in there, it's true. I'm still disappointed about Kolya's demise, and really am annoyed that not more was made of Sheppard's reaction to seeing Kolya again after what transpired in Common Ground. Common Ground was a fabulous episode, and this one could have been such good drama because of the events from it. Sadly that was not to be. I still think that was a big mistake. Sometimes, as an Atlantis fan, it is really frustrating that I often feel there are no ramifications from events that affect the characters. I craved seeing Sheppard struggle to control himself when seeing Kolya, and would have loved to have seen a more epic showdown between him and Kolya.
As for the shield? Well, you're right, sometimes we fans can get a little bogged down by what we've seen on the show previously. Often I can let things go, but I suppose I was just so disappointed in the Kolya/Sheppard parts that the shield just tipped me over the edge!!!
I'm looking forward to The Ark and Submersion tremendously! :)


I agree - I could have gotten over the fact that Kolya was dead had we at least seen this! Now I feel we have been cheated out of some potentially really fabulous scenes!

FoolishPleasure
December 7th, 2006, 01:53 PM
Needless to say, I ended up writing Submersion instead, a Teyla story which I originally pitched as a follow up to the Gift -- but which morphed away from that a bit along the way.

Ken

Please don't let "The Others" take a good story away from you to be revised by committee. "The Gift" should have had a follow-up later that same season, but Teyla's worth has been ignored for the most part, which is one reason why she is so disliked in fandom. The poor girl has little personality, and what she does show from time to time is quickly discarded in favor of scenes showcasing her belly-baring tank tops that are three sizes too small for her.

It would be wonderful to have a GOOD Teyla episode. Not another "Mary Sue" like "Phantoms", but something where we learn more about her as a person. It would be even better to have a Teyla episode without Sheppard or McKay, who always end up the focus of the episode 99% of the time. Who knows, if I knew Teyla better, I might even start liking her. :)

Trialia
December 7th, 2006, 01:55 PM
Hey, where'd all the crabby, grrrr people go...it's not as fun without you.
You mean me, among others?

If you read my post, I got hit with a major migraine about six hours ago. It's gone now... because I accidentally overdosed myself with Tramadol *winces* But that's better than being blinded by pain, which is how the damn thing turned out. Still, I feel like I'm seasick. Morphine-based drugs... I should be way more careful. I gave 'em to my stepmom so's I don't make another mistake if it decides to come back while I'm asleep.

Back on topic... Himbos? Not interested. Just give us more Elizabeth, Teyla and Laura Cadman please... and what happened to Miko??

ETA: Melyanna-- thank you! That is precisely what I feel the main problem is here...

ken_is_here
December 7th, 2006, 01:58 PM
No, she's right. One woman said she was ashamed that she'd only slept with him once before everyone realized how wonderful he was. It's a complete inference for me, but I get the impression that she wouldn't have slept with him again, and that he'd badgered a lot of women before finding the drug.



Fictional tales always get this kind of scrutiny, because we in the audience are taking the material in with our own perspective, not necessarily the author's intended perspective. I'm not you, so I can't look at your work through your perspective. I went to a high school production of Romeo and Juliet several years ago, and at the beginning of the play one of the cast members came on stage and gave a mini-speech on how suicide is not the solution to life's problems. Was that what Shakespeare intended to happen at the beginning of his play? No, probably not, but when we take the work out of the author's perspective (which we're going to, because we're not the author), things happen differently than the author intended. Writers write things without realizing every possible way a statement could be construed. That's not necessarily a bad thing, but you have to be prepared for the audience to react differently than you hoped. If you're not, you end up like Anne Rice yelling at people who left negative reviews at Amazon, telling them they're interrogating the text from the wrong perspective.

In this case, and in the case of your examples, I think it's a matter of context and what's actually shown.

Have you noticed how love potions generally backfire? A Midsummer Night's Dream is one of my favorite plays, but the potions are administered with good intentions and everything is set back to rights before either of the men tries to force himself on Helena. There's a love potion of sorts in the Little Mermaid story (can't remember if it's in more than just the Disney version) but again, that goes really badly for the villain. You can compare it to a fairy tale plot device all you want, but have you ever read the original printed versions of these fairy tales, whether they're the brothers Grimm or the Italian version? People are punished by being stuffed into barrels and rolled off cliffs. They don't get a joke about nasty divorces.

The pirate example is ridiculous. Do you really think Disney is trying to portray historically realistic pirates? Do you really think it's implied that Jack Sparrow is off raping women left and right when the camera isn't on him? We can only judge by what the material itself presents us. We can take what we know of historical realities and try to infer things, try to apply a context to it, but in the end we can only judge by what's in front of us.

(I've never seen Con-Air. I don't have a fundamental objection to criminals-as-protagonists stories, but I have serious doubts that I would be so cheerful for a protagonist who's a pedophile, no matter how funny, as will probably be obvious by the end of the next paragraph.)

My objection, by and large, was not the "innocent classic love potion device". It was a failure by the writers to recognize that my goodness, there are consent issues here! The classic stories involving love potions that I remember don't involve people getting married, the potion being exposed, and everyone being all fine and dandy with it afterward. The closest analogy to the situation in Irresistible that I can think of is a friend of mine who was raped when she was a child, before she understood anything about sex. She certainly wasn't capable of understanding what was going on and wasn't able to give consent, whether she was asked or not. Her ability to choose for herself was impaired by reason of age. When she hit sixteen and was considered legally able to choose for herself, had that man asked her, she might have said yes. (We'll never know because he's been in jail for years, thank the Lord.) But the point is, the fact that she might have said yes when not impaired doesn't make it right to take advantage of the impairment.

The women in Irresistible (and the men, for that matter, though theirs was more of a forced servitude – slavery, if you will) were also impaired in their ability to choose. The fact that one of them said yes before doesn't make it right for him to take advantage. Slipping a drug into a woman's drink that makes her less likely to say no doesn't make it right, and that's how I saw the drug in Irresistible.

Argh, sorry for the length of this, but this really is my last point. A lot of the people I know who had problems with it have expressed a belief that the episode could have been saved had the ending been different. We didn't need to see anything, but had the episode ended with a remark that one of those "wives" had beaten the crap out of him instead of a joke about nasty divorces, I think a lot of us, myself included, would have thought, "Oh, okay. They're acknowledging that at least some part of this wasn't funny." I thought the episode was going there when Lucius started threatening Sheppard toward the end. Instead, we got more jokes.

And I realize that this has little to do with Irresponsible, aside from the character – I haven't seen the episode and don't plan on watching it because I hated Lucius so much – and I realize that Irresponsible was written before Irresistible aired. I understand that the writers weren't intentionally trying to harass the viewers, but for those of us out there who were uncomfortable with how the whole matter was handled in Irresistible, his reappearance later in the season feels a bit like salt in open wounds. Stings a bit and makes us unhappy.

Again, sorry for the length of this. But you seem like a reasonable guy, and I felt like I needed to take a bit of space to explain my opinion properly. I think it all comes down to context and perspective in the end, and I wasn't convinced enough by the context we were given to buy the author's perspective that Lucius was funny and harmless in Irresistible.

Nobody said what Lucious was doing was right. He was an evil guy, disguised as a buffoon. That's why we stopped him, took away his drugs and sent him home to face the wrath of his people.

Sorry you didn't like these episodes. Not every episode is for everybody. I hope you'll keep watching.

Amalthia
December 7th, 2006, 01:58 PM
Seriously, you have nothing to worry about. Just pretend this episode never happened, and enjoy the rest of the season. There are some much darker themes coming up. (including both my upcoming eps.) lots of gut-wrenching drama, and tons of character development for our leads.

Ken

I've been hearing that you're a writer for the show? I'm seriously hoping that's just an in-joke or something because I've never heard of a writer that just wants their readers to "forget" what they'd worked on. There are only 20 episodes of Atlantis per season and it's not a serialized show therefore each episode kind of needs to stand on its own and I think it's kind of good for the writers to find out what's working and what isn't. Especially, now that SG-1 isn't going to be renewed.

Weaker episodes like this will weaken the "gut-wrenching drama" that's coming up sometime in the future. I see each episode as potential for character building and futhering a storyline. This episode is the worst I've seen for season 3 thus far and I really hope that the rest goes back to Common Ground quality.

I was able to handwave the lack of reprecussions for the Return 2 and I enjoyed Echos. I'm not that hard to please. I just hate seeing wasted opportunities, Kolya's death, which you can't forget happened because now you know there is no more Kolya for the team to worry about on future missions.

I think season one had the best of the drama/gut-wrenching episodes. The Defiant One, the Eye/Storm, and the Seige parts 1 and 2, even Brotherhood.

I think someone fell asleep on the job when the script for Irresponsible was approved.

Anyway, every season for just about every show has a few bad episodes. I think what upset me the most about this bad episode is the utter lack of drama/tension when Kolya was killed.

Trialia
December 7th, 2006, 01:59 PM
I agree with all of this.

To me it seems the negative reaction comes not from Lucious using the drug (He is a villain in Irresistable afterall) but that it was in a comedy episode. I don't think this was a case of us missing the issue -- it was more that we were trying something new -- having a silly episode juxtiposed with darker undertones -- and in doing so we couldn't have accounted for the reaction. (There isn't really a frame of reference for this) As I mentioned earlier, Torchwood did the same thing, only with one of the core team -- and I'm sure they had no idea what sort of negative reaction there would be either. We just try different things. Some work - like common ground for instance, we were very concerned that the torture angle would be too dark for our show -- and some don't. But if we never try anything new, the whole concept would get stale.
Better to actually get it right instead of offending and hurting a lot of people like you (collective 'you') managed to do with what it became, though.

NJS said that the consent issues weren't even considered and JF looked completely taken aback when I mentioned the possibility - that doesn't say "black comedy gone wrong" to me - that says that you didn't realise. But that isn't an excuse.

TJuk
December 7th, 2006, 01:59 PM
Actually, I think the venting got the hostility out of our systems. Now we're just waiting around until next week's beatings.

Just wait til 'Sunday' or 'Vengence' airs...whichever one it turns out to be. Then they'll be a whole can of whup-ass opened up when they bump off one of the best damn (and supposedly lead...ha!)characters on SGA...hell in the SG-verse. Shoehorning another bimbo character (poor poor Jewel) that will no doubt end up as pretty wallpaper because SG just cant write women consistantly. This whole 'rape..maybe rape' issue is an interesting subject to debate. The mind boggling stupidity of the other just pisses me off and well....I think my post count will be raised considerably along with my blood pressure!!!

Read the sig dude...

Trialia
December 7th, 2006, 02:00 PM
Nobody said what Lucious was doing was right. He was an evil guy, disguised as a buffoon. That's why we stopped him, took away his drugs and sent him home to face the wrath of his people.

Sorry you didn't like these episodes. Not every episode is for everybody. I hope you'll keep watching.
And from what you said earlier you think that not having the love of the village anymore was a sufficient punishment.

It's nowhere near.

Pitry
December 7th, 2006, 02:00 PM
I agree with all of this.

To me it seems the negative reaction comes not from Lucious using the drug (He is a villain in Irresistable afterall) but that it was in a comedy episode. I don't think this was a case of us missing the issue -- it was more that we were trying something new -- having a silly episode juxtiposed with darker undertones -- and in doing so we couldn't have accounted for the reaction. (There isn't really a frame of reference for this) As I mentioned earlier, Torchwood did the same thing, only with one of the core team -- and I'm sure they had no idea what sort of negative reaction there would be either. We just try different things. Some work - like common ground for instance, we were very concerned that the torture angle would be too dark for our show -- and some don't. But if we never try anything new, the whole concept would get stale.

True about it becoming stale - but specifically for Irresistable, can you really play on both parts that way - sillyness and darker themes? One of them is bound to get lost. I admit to not having read even a fracture of the entire dicussion, but of what I did read (and feel) - it's exactly that sillyness that killed the darker theme altogether, which is why peopel object the result so much. Is it really possible to balance compeltely and give both shares an equal treatment? It's funny to say, but with our soceity this prolly would have gone out a lot better if it were murder, rather than rape as the underlying theme. Same for the Torchwood example - that's what pissed people off, the way the rape was treated (or rather, not treated) For example, the reaction to Tosh's actions or Suzie's weren't even close. And Suzie murdered people. . But as soon as you start treating that topic with alittle bit more seriousness, you lsoe the essance of "silly".
I think...

psychofilly
December 7th, 2006, 02:01 PM
Well, I would say it is more Teyla-driven, as it is a team ep that heavily features Teyla.

Ooh, wonderful. I love the team balance that y'all have been trying to maintain this season, though I've been hoping for Teyla to get a more focused episode. Echoes was a nice suprise because I thought it would be all about Rodney, but the entire cast was used to perfection. Even Caldwell made an appearance, yay! When you guys get it right, there are few shows that are as fun to watch.

the dancer of spaz
December 7th, 2006, 02:02 PM
I agree with all of this.

To me it seems the negative reaction comes not from Lucious using the drug (He is a villain in Irresistable afterall) but that it was in a comedy episode. I don't think this was a case of us missing the issue -- it was more that we were trying something new -- having a silly episode juxtiposed with darker undertones -- and in doing so we couldn't have accounted for the reaction. (There isn't really a frame of reference for this) As I mentioned earlier, Torchwood did the same thing, only with one of the core team -- and I'm sure they had no idea what sort of negative reaction there would be either. We just try different things. Some work - like common ground for instance, we were very concerned that the torture angle would be too dark for our show -- and some don't. But if we never try anything new, the whole concept would get stale.

You're absolutely right. It's not so much that rape was involved, as it was that humor was the main tone of the episode - which, I suppose, means that a different tactic would've been required to keep Richard Kind's Lavin on the more humorous side.

Interestingly enough, this isn't the first time that darker issues like rape have simply been glossed over. I'm not sure if anyone's mentioned it before, but fans have had issues with the way characters in SG-1 were handled when rape was involved in the past (re: Jack in "Brief Candle" and Daniel and "Hathor").

I heard about the uproar with Torchwood, and I think it's another example of how online fans can prove to be great, immediate feedback - not just for you guys, but for other series writers and producers as well. Online fans can be vocal and petty and obnoxious, but once you get past all of those annoying traits, there is something valid being said. :)

Trialia
December 7th, 2006, 02:02 PM
Just wait til 'Sunday' or 'Vengence' airs...whichever one it turns out to be. Then they'll be a whole can of whup-ass opened up when they bump off one of the best damn (and supposedly lead...ha!)characters on SGA...hell in the SG-verse. Shoehorning another bimbo character (poor poor Jewel) that will no doubt end up as pretty wallpaper because SG just cant write women consistantly. This whole 'rape..maybe rape' issue is an interesting subject to debate. The mind boggling stupidity of the other just pisses me off and well....I think my post count will be raised considerably along with my blood pressure!!!

Read the sig dude...
Yeah, TBH, no offence or anything TJuk, but he's the one main character I really don't like. He gets on my nerves with the bad accent (because make no mistake, I have friends born in Paisley and that is not how any of them sound) and the character himself is just... well, I won't go into why I don't like the character. This isn't the place. But not all of us will be upset to see him go. I'm sorry if that might upset you, but it's true.

Pitry
December 7th, 2006, 02:03 PM
Please don't let "The Others" take a good story away from you to be revised by committee. "The Gift" should have had a follow-up later that same season, but Teyla's worth has been ignored for the most part, which is one reason why she is so disliked in fandom. The poor girl has little personality, and what she does show from time to time is quickly discarded in favor of scenes showcasing her belly-baring tank tops that are three sizes too small for her.

It would be wonderful to have a GOOD Teyla episode. Not another "Mary Sue" like "Phantoms", but something where we learn more about her as a person. It would be even better to have a Teyla episode without Sheppard or McKay, who always end up the focus of the episode 99% of the time.

Actualy, Phantoms ignored Teyla compeltely. She was there as a fascilitator for Sheppard's story, much like Ronon, rather than have a story of her own.


Who knows, if I knew Teyla better, I might even start liking her. :)

That's actually what hapened to me with Weir. Still waiting on Ronon and Teyla, tho, Although Ronon is getting a tiny bit better ;) (still waiting for the verison of Sateda that actually confronts Ronon with his beliefs/ attitudes rather than dtrengthening them.)

Trialia
December 7th, 2006, 02:04 PM
You're absolutely right. It's not so much that rape was involved, as it was that humor was the main tone of the episode - which, I suppose, means that a different tactic would've been required to keep Richard Kind's Lavin on the more humorous side.

Interestingly enough, this isn't the first time that darker issues like rape have simply been glossed over. I'm not sure if anyone's mentioned it before, but fans have had issues with the way characters in SG-1 were handled when rape was involved in the past (re: Jack in "Brief Candle" and Daniel and "Hathor").

I heard about the uproar with Torchwood, and I think it's another example of how online fans can prove to be great, immediate feedback - not just for you guys, but for other series writers and producers as well. Online fans can be vocal and petty and obnoxious, but once you get past all of those annoying traits, there is something valid being said. :)
YES!

God, if only!

TBH, Daniel should be a basket case by now after everything that's happened to him including the multiple deaths. I mean seriously, what? No emotional repercussions from anything bar what happened to Sha're? :rolleyes:

Linzi
December 7th, 2006, 02:04 PM
I agree - I could have gotten over the fact that Kolya was dead had we at least seen this! Now I feel we have been cheated out of some potentially really fabulous scenes!
Yes, me too. This keeps happening to me. I often feel there's not enough drama in episodes of Atlantis. Common Ground made the hairs on the back of my neck stand on end. I felt shocked at what transpired in the torture scenes, but shocked in a good way. Ok, that makes me sound sadistic ;) Ahem... so, moving on...
The problem with so-called comedy episodes is that the Atlantis fans sometimes aren't in agreement with the writers over what constitutes comedy! Or at least it appears that way sometimes.
For example, Duet isn't one of my favourite episodes, but parts of it were hilarious, in my opinion, so I can appreciate those. Other bits made me cringe, but I can overlook those as it was good on the whole.
Irresitible was an episode I enjoyed, depsite the fact that Lucius really annoyed me by the end of it. Some bits were funny to me, and I was entertained. The rape part, as I've previously said, didn't even occur to me when I watched it.
But, after the events of Common Ground, to use Kolya in a supposed light-hearted episode just didn't work for me. I wanted drama and angst and something a little more gritty. That could be just me, of course, but Common Ground has sort of spoiled me for future episodes. The bench was raised, and new episodes have a lot to live up to for me now.

gooner_diva
December 7th, 2006, 02:07 PM
I was just thinking that since with M & M at the helmet this show won't go past season four anyway, then why bother?. Season four will probably be more of the same dumb jokes, recycled villains, degrading women (because what are women for if not eye candy, right?), I should probably thank them for putting a damper on my enthusiasm for this show, I was becoming way to obsessed, one or two more episodes like this and it will be far easier than I ever thought it would be to stop watching and never going back.
Hear, hear! In a way I'm grateful to M&M for all the crap they've thrown at us in the last couple of years. My appreciation for this show in S1 was bordering on obsession. At least this way I won't care when it gets cancelled.

Now, since you're asking for negativity... The treatment of women on Stargate has always been abysmal. I'm sick of all the skanky off-world space bimbos. I'm sick of Teyla and Weir standing around doing nothing while Sheppard & McKay are off saving the galaxy. Don't even get me (re)started on the rapes... of both women and established canon.

What I find most disappointing is that the writing staff apparently break their **** laughing at episodes like The Tower and Irresistible. While The Tower was plain dumb, Irresistible was OFFENSIVE to a number of people. Humour is not supposed to make a chunk of the audience despise the episode, the writers, the show, give them headaches, hell, it's not supposed to induce vomiting either. Something to think about the next time someone bursts in with an idea for a "funny" episode.

Uber
December 7th, 2006, 02:07 PM
Wow. What can I say about this episode that hasn't already been said by others. Not much really. But I can say it in a different way I suppose.

What an unmitigated disaster.

Okay there were some good moments...but good moments do not a good episode make. Especially when said episode is completely overrun by massive gaping plot holes and an incongruous theme.

I've never liked Lucius...which thoroughly irritates me because I really love Richard Kind. It's just that this character rubs me completely the wrong way. Out of all the "funny" moments with him, I think I cracked a grin once. Such a waste of a really funny man.

Then we have the unbelievably hideous rewrite of personal shield technology. You know, the device that requires an Ancient gene to operate...the device McKay couldn't turn off or touch or couldn't eat or drink because the shield was impenetrable. The shield that protected him for who knows how long as he waded through a shadow entity to the naqadah generator and threw the device through the open gate to get the creature to chase it.

Now all the sudden the user can take it off and on without any problem at all. Hands can touch and massage feet and foot and drinks move through it without a problem. And so does water.

The rule about kinetic energy applied to Goa'uld personal shields. Not Ancient ones.

As for the towns people. I just don't have the energy to string together anything regarding to this topic...so I'll just say *sigh* and that will have to suffice.

Then we move on to perhaps the most egregious aspect of this episode. Acastus Kolya...played by Robert Davi who I'ved LOVED since his Profiler days. Kolya was my very favorite Atlantis bad guy...with Cowen coming in at a close second. He was vicious and cruel...but not your typical cliche baddie. The Storm/The Eye was about the time I decided that perhaps there was something special to this series after all and that TPTB could make compelling, multi-faceted antagonists who don't spew the tired rhetoric most bad guys do.

Irresponsible turned him into a joke. That ghastly shoot out scene was beyond cringeworthy and a truly pathetic end for a such fantastic character.

Again...there were some cute character beats...seeing the team talk about their childhood heroes and such...that was nice. But nothing could overcome such a horrendous excuse for an episode.

ken_is_here
December 7th, 2006, 02:09 PM
I've been hearing that you're a writer for the show? I'm seriously hoping that's just an in-joke or something because I've never heard of a writer that just wants their readers to "forget" what they'd worked on. There are only 20 episodes of Atlantis per season and it's not a serialized show therefore each episode kind of needs to stand on its own and I think it's kind of good for the writers to find out what's working and what isn't. Especially, now that SG-1 isn't going to be renewed.

Weaker episodes like this will weaken the "gut-wrenching drama" that's coming up sometime in the future. I see each episode as potential for character building and futhering a storyline. This episode is the worst I've seen for season 3 thus far and I really hope that the rest goes back to Common Ground quality.

I was able to handwave the lack of reprecussions for the Return 2 and I enjoyed Echos. I'm not that hard to please. I just hate seeing wasted opportunities, Kolya's death, which you can't forget happened because now you know there is no more Kolya for the team to worry about on future missions.

I think season one had the best of the drama/gut-wrenching episodes. The Defiant One, the Eye/Storm, and the Seige parts 1 and 2, even Brotherhood.

I think someone fell asleep on the job when the script for Irresponsible was approved.

Anyway, every season for just about every show has a few bad episodes. I think what upset me the most about this bad episode is the utter lack of drama/tension when Kolya was killed.

Oh Boy...

I meant...if you didn't like the episode, then forget it happened. If it is going to ruin the series for you better to forget it, and move on. I wasn't saying it was forgettable. There is stuff I really love about it.

"Weaker episode like this" is your opinion -- others share that opinion -- still others liked it just fine.

Nobody fell asleep on the job when the script was approved. The script was great. My favorite of the season, still. (Okay, Carl Binder was dozing a little...but he had a turkey sandwich for lunch)

Melyanna
December 7th, 2006, 02:09 PM
Nobody said what Lucious was doing was right. He was an evil guy, disguised as a buffoon. That's why we stopped him, took away his drugs and sent him home to face the wrath of his people.

Sorry you didn't like these episodes. Not every episode is for everybody. I hope you'll keep watching.
You've said in another post that the problem with the episode seems not to be that a drug was used but that the episode was comedic. I think that pretty much nails it. But you say Lucius was an evil guy disguised as a buffoon. My problem with that statement is that nowhere in Irresistible did anyone seem to acknowledge the idea that Lucius was an evil guy, with the exception of a single scene with Sheppard. And I'm not convinced Sheppard thought he was evil, given how Sheppard has treated evil guys in the past.

I understand that not every episode appeals to every person – I've been writing long enough myself to understand that an audience has its whims – but today is the first time that I've seen anyone from the show acknowledge that maybe some of us who were upset by the episode had reason to be. I find that, and the total lack of realization that the "comedy" might be massively offensive, as Trialia indicated, to be very troubling. I mean, The Office has jokes that are offensive and I'm frequently made uncomfortable while watching, but I never get the idea that the writers don't realize the jokes are offensive. The whole point of the Michael Scott character is that he's an idiot who doesn't know what's offensive and what isn't. That's not the impression I got out of Lucius Lavin. I never got the impression during the episode that the writers were being deliberately offensive and that they knew exactly what they were implying. The episode was neither black comedy nor social satire.

Jeyla4ever
December 7th, 2006, 02:10 PM
Well, I would say it is more Teyla-driven, as it is a team ep that heavily features Teyla.
WOOOHOOOO! Teyla driven episode....Thanks Ken......I admire you for replying to the fans and reading all of this with such patience.

Personally, I love the team episodes, and this one and Irresistible did just that...so, thanks to you and all the writers...

Teyla had some great moments this season but she didn't have her own Teyla centric episode...and although I'm not particularly fond of character centric episodes..I'm hoping that Season 4 and the remainding season 3 give her some great opportunities.......Example....Sateda was a great Ronon episode but had wonderful development for the other characters...and those are the character driven episodes that I look forward to..and of coarse, the action and the scifi drama along with it....awesome!

One of the greatest things that I like about the writers in Atlantis is that although there is always room for improvement...both Weir and Teyla are exceptional female characters and portrayed beautifully by Torri and Rachel.

In Irresistible, we got to see Teyla with her team...she had her moments were she led the scene and that was great to see....I love her new sarcastic attitude like she showed with Lucious in this episode.....it amazes me that even though she is sorrounded by a male dominant team...all which have their own ego trip going on she still has the wits, the strength and the character to shut them all down...

The Gift was such a fabulous episode and it does deserve to be explored more.......I love it when the writers show the females as strong and still understanding and compassionate with their males....we are the voice of reason...LOL

Hey, you guys are the professionals....and as long as I'm entertained...I"m happy..and I agree with you Ken....this was entertaining...different from the other type of episodes but still quite enjoyable..

psychofilly
December 7th, 2006, 02:11 PM
True about it becoming stale - but specifically for Irresistable, can you really play on both parts that way - sillyness and darker themes? One of them is bound to get lost. I admit to not having read even a fracture of the entire dicussion, but of what I did read (and feel) - it's exactly that sillyness that killed the darker theme altogether, which is why peopel object the result so much. Is it really possible to balance compeltely and give both shares an equal treatment? It's funny to say, but with our soceity this prolly would have gone out a lot better if it were murder, rather than rape as the underlying theme. Same for the Torchwood example - that's what pissed people off, the way the rape was treated (or rather, not treated) For example, the reaction to Tosh's actions or Suzie's weren't even close. And Suzie murdered people. . But as soon as you start treating that topic with alittle bit more seriousness, you lsoe the essance of "silly".
I think...

I feel like it *is* possible to have a silly episode switch gears and be really dark. I've seen it done, and done well. The problem in my opinion is once the *twist* happens and the sillyness is peeled away, you have to go balls to the wall with it. Pulling back into the "ha ha, isn't this funny!" mode doesn't work for me. I realize a show like SGA can't have several episodes where all the characters are in therapy because of what almost happened to them is going overboard, but at the same time and ending that didn't make a joke about the entire issue and left the viewers feeling the characters discomfort would have given the episode a lot more of a payoff.

At least in Irresponsible, Lucius upgraded to staging raids to impress the ladies. It's still a lie, but at least they had a choice in the matter. For me, this episode works Ken's Nutty Professor example much better than the first episode. Lucius didn't change his appearance, but he certainly misrepresented himself, and then relied on his (dubious) charms to worm his way into the heart of the village. They weren't getting the package they were originally sold.

Trialia
December 7th, 2006, 02:14 PM
(Okay, Carl Binder was dozing a little...but he had a turkey sandwich for lunch)
That explains the lack of Elizabeth then. :P

Seriously, CB is the best Elizabeth writer on the team IMHO and the opinion of several others - just go look at his fan thread. You have a wonderfully talented actress as your lead female, use the talent. Torri's the reason I started watching Atlantis in the first place.

As for forgetting the episode - it would be nice to be able to do that. But I can't get rid of the feeling of betrayal.

ken_is_here
December 7th, 2006, 02:17 PM
Better to actually get it right instead of offending and hurting a lot of people like you (collective 'you') managed to do with what it became, though.

NJS said that the consent issues weren't even considered and JF looked completely taken aback when I mentioned the possibility - that doesn't say "black comedy gone wrong" to me - that says that you didn't realise. But that isn't an excuse.


Obviously offending and hurting people - by creating a fictional character who does fictional things - never crossed our minds.

I don't think it was a black comedy "gone wrong." I think it was the very definition of black comedy. Some were offended by it, and I respect that -- but it was a story choice and we made it - and we stand by it.

I've never tried to defend it -- only give an alternate side to the argument. I personally think Lucious is pretty dispicable -- which is how I like my villains.

Amalthia
December 7th, 2006, 02:18 PM
I agree with all of this.

As I mentioned earlier, Torchwood did the same thing, only with one of the core team -- and I'm sure they had no idea what sort of negative reaction there would be either.

The difference between SGA and Torchwood is that in a later episode Owen kind of got his just deserts when he experienced the emotions of a rape/murder victim and I think as a character he's changed a little because of that experience. But I think by showing what Owen did in episode one everyone got the point very quickly that the members of Torchwood aren't exactly all "good" guys. I felt like it wasn't just gratioutous and there was a reason for showing that.

My problem with Irrestistable wasn't the "love potion" plot device. I loved that part when Sheppard is in the cell and Lucious threatens him. It felt really sinsister and creepy, which was actually kind of awesome. what bothered me a little was even after that experience Sheppard teases Teyla, Weir, Carson and pretty much everyone else about it. When he should have known better. I mean I can see why he doesn't have a lot of friends, he's sort of clueless. His people could have been killed going to that Wraith planet, Lucious could have raped any of number of women workign on Atlantis, and the tone at the end just didn't feel right for what had happened. I think it would have been more dramatic if they had taken the "love potion" plot device more seriously. At the beginning I was okay with the humorous aspects but after that scene in the cell between Sheppard and Lucious they should have kept it kind of darker.

I think people can handle darker aspects of life in fiction if it's taken seriously.

the last episode of Veronica Mars if they had tried to make a comedy out of all the rapes happening the episode would have fallen flat on it's face. And yet, I still found portions of the last VM episode funny. Mostly just the expressions on the characters faces and the dialogue.

In BSG, after the attempted rape, the Commander apologizes to Sharon, it's not just brushed under a rug and never talked about again. Sure the scene was hard to watch and I felt like crying but at the same time I didn't get offended because even while the guys were all laughing about raping the other cylon prisoner, you could see the revulsion on the women's faces around them, like they were not amused. And it showed a big difference between Galactica and Pegasus crews and mentality.

I guess the problem with SGA is that when it comes to darker elements, other shows have been there first and in most cases have done it better.

TJuk
December 7th, 2006, 02:20 PM
Yeah, TBH, no offence or anything TJuk, but he's the one main character I really don't like. He gets on my nerves with the bad accent (because make no mistake, I have friends born in Paisley and that is not how any of them sound) and the character himself is just... well, I won't go into why I don't like the character. This isn't the place. But not all of us will be upset to see him go. I'm sorry if that might upset you, but it's true.

I work with a guy from Paisley, he's a weather presenter and has to 'soften' his accent for the English audience so the masses can understand him and has spent alot of time outside of Scotland. He sounds almost exactly like Carson, his accent is also mangled and influenced by outside accents...so I'll agree to disagree on that point. Though occassionally PMcG screws up, trying to hard to be 'understandable' I think for the North American audience. But I've heard him do full on Glaswegian in Glasgow in a room full of Weegies, they were all impressed but its not suitable for the wider audience, hence the 'softening'.

And yes I know you dont like him (out of interest, what do you like?) fine, no bother dude. Each to their own, be no fun if we all liked the same things. But you cant say the man's not popular, he's the only member of cast that EARNED his main cast status partly thanks to popularity with the fans. Speaks for itself really.

Ok I'm going wwwaaaaaayyyyyy of track here...already bored of talking about Irresponistable... :p

SAVE KOLYA!!! RESURECT HIM! Robo-Kolya? Cyber-Kolya? Bodysnatcher Kolya? Anubolya?

Sheppard's Delight
December 7th, 2006, 02:21 PM
Yes, me too. This keeps happening to me. I often feel there's not enough drama in episodes of Atlantis. Common Ground made the hairs on the back of my neck stand on end. I felt shocked at what transpired in the torture scenes, but shocked in a good way. Ok, that makes me sound sadistic ;) Ahem... so, moving on...
The problem with so-called comedy episodes is that the Atlantis fans sometimes aren't in agreement with the writers over what constitutes comedy! Or at least it appears that way sometimes.
For example, Duet isn't one of my favourite episodes, but parts of it were hilarious, in my opinion, so I can appreciate those. Other bits made me cringe, but I can overlook those as it was good on the whole.
Irresitible was an episode I enjoyed, depsite the fact that Lucius really annoyed me by the end of it. Some bits were funny to me, and I was entertained. The rape part, as I've previously said, didn't even occur to me when I watched it.
But, after the events of Common Ground, to use Kolya in a supposed light-hearted episode just didn't work for me. I wanted drama and angst and something a little more gritty. That could be just me, of course, but Common Ground has sort of spoiled me for future episodes. The bench was raised, and new episodes have a lot to live up to for me now.


You know that is part of the problem - when you get something as brilliant as Common Ground you are always comparing the episodes that follow. On the whole most of the Season 3 episodes have held up fairly well.

I guess (there is one exception) I have enjoyed something in each of the season 3 eps so far. The fact that we then got Irresponsible thrown at us was such a disappointment. I guess those of us that like to be spoiled knew that Kolya was going to be in the episode and had such high expectations. We had high hopes of what would happen following on from CG and when it didnt we all felt really flat.

It is interesting that some people that I know that have read all the negative reviews before watching the episode have come out with more favorable views ( not that I am saying they loved the ep or anything). I just think that part of the dislike of the episode does come from expectations beforehand. We all expected more.

silence
December 7th, 2006, 02:22 PM
Ahhh, there you are. I missed you. :)

Seriously, you have nothing to worry about. Just pretend this episode never happened, and enjoy the rest of the season. There are some much darker themes coming up. (including both my upcoming eps.) lots of gut-wrenching drama, and tons of character development for our leads.

Ken

this makes me happy. VERY. which ones?

Trialia
December 7th, 2006, 02:23 PM
Obviously offending and hurting people - by creating a fictional character who does fictional things - never crossed our minds.

I don't think it was a black comedy "gone wrong." I think it was the very definition of black comedy. Some were offended by it, and I respect that -- but it was a story choice and we made it - and we stand by it.

I've never tried to defend it -- only give an alternate side to the argument. I personally think Lucious is pretty dispicable -- which is how I like my villains.
I know that - and it should have. I don't think TPTB realise how involved devoted fans of a show sometimes get with its characters. They may be "fictional", but some of us write fanfiction and to do that you have to try to get right inside a character's skin. Feel like you know him or her. A great many fans have a lot more emotional involvement than you realise, it seems.

I've said this bit before, but I'll say it again: fictional or not, you are transmitting something like this worldwide and to millions of people and as such, that lays a bit of responsibility on you to not set an example that implies that something like sexual assault is comedic, particularly when it's something we've been struggling to speak out against for years.

No, I don't think it was. I enjoy black comedy, as a rule. If this was your definition of it - please don't do it again.

Almost everything you've said has been in defence of the episode, so if you're not trying to defend it and your "alternate side to the argument" has the erroneous conclusions, what is that?

Melyanna
December 7th, 2006, 02:25 PM
I feel like it *is* possible to have a silly episode switch gears and be really dark. I've seen it done, and done well. The problem in my opinion is once the *twist* happens and the sillyness is peeled away, you have to go balls to the wall with it. Pulling back into the "ha ha, isn't this funny!" mode doesn't work for me. I realize a show like SGA can't have several episodes where all the characters are in therapy because of what almost happened to them is going overboard, but at the same time and ending that didn't make a joke about the entire issue and left the viewers feeling the characters discomfort would have given the episode a lot more of a payoff.

Agreed. The West Wing had episodes that started out funny and ended incredibly dark – like "Commencement", which had senior staff members climbing over fences and the President appearing to publicly grope himself while trying to get to inaccessible notes, and which ended with his daughter being drugged and kidnapped, and a Secret Service agent being shot in the head. Getting even older, MASH had a very funny and sweet episode that ended with Radar walking in and annoucing that their former colonel's plane had been shot down over the Sea of Japan and there were no survivors. You can go from funny to dark in a heartbeat – but you have to stick the landing.

Trialia
December 7th, 2006, 02:25 PM
I work with a guy from Paisley, he's a weather presenter and has to 'soften' his accent for the English audience so the masses can understand him and has spent alot of time outside of Scotland. He sounds almost exactly like Carson, his accent is also mangled and influenced by outside accents...so I'll agree to disagree on that point. Though occassionally PMcG screws up, trying to hard to be 'understandable' I think for the North American audience. But I've heard him do full on Glaswegian in Glasgow in a room full of Weegies, they were all impressed but its not suitable for the wider audience, hence the 'softening'.

And yes I know you dont like him (out of interest, what do you like?) fine, no bother dude. Each to their own, be no fun if we all liked the same things. But you cant say the man's not popular, he's the only member of cast that EARNED his main cast status partly thanks to popularity with the fans. Speaks for itself really.

Perhaps it is that softening that makes it so irritating to me then. I dated a man from Paisley for three years and neither he nor his friends sounded like that. But I'm told I have a Canadian accent by my fellow Brits, so how you hear something differs.

What do I like? Elizabeth. Teyla. John. Rodney. Ronon. Kate. Laura. Lindsey. Hermiod. Decent character episodes. Team episodes. Snark. UST. And yes, even Kolya.

And I still miss Grodin, even though his South African accent didn't sound remotely English :P

I didn't say Beckett wasn't popular, I just said it wasn't a universal sentiment.

Wolf Eire
December 7th, 2006, 02:26 PM
SAVE KOLYA!!! RESURECT HIM! Robo-Kolya? Cyber-Kolya? Bodysnatcher Kolya? Anubolya?

Zombie Kolya, ascended Koyla....the possibilities are endless!

Linzi
December 7th, 2006, 02:26 PM
You know that is part of the problem - when you get something as brilliant as Common Ground you are always comparing the episodes that follow. On the whole most of the Season 3 episodes have held up fairly well.

I guess (there is one exception) I have enjoyed something in each of the season 3 eps so far. The fact that we then got Irresponsible thrown at us was such a disappointment. I guess those of us that like to be spoiled knew that Kolya was going to be in the episode and had such high expectations. We had high hopes of what would happen following on from CG and when it didnt we all felt really flat.

It is interesting that some people that I know that have read all the negative reviews before watching the episode have come out with more favorable views ( not that I am saying they loved the ep or anything). I just think that part of the dislike of the episode does come from expectations beforehand. We all expected more.
Agreed. Though my expectations were very low to start with! I have got over that now though. I'll never get over Kolya's less than memorable dismissal though!!!! Growl!!!! :(

grasshopper64
December 7th, 2006, 02:27 PM
Wow just about read through all 28 pages of this thread!

I agree with much of what's been said here, probably one of my worst SGA eps, which is a shame because I've enjoyed all of Atlantis this season (except irresistable).

I really couldn't stand Lucius and thought that bringing him back for a second ep was a bit pointless. There were a few cringeworthy moments for me with the way some of these women were all over him. The men weren't much better either;)

In my opinion it was a waste of Kolya in this ep and I'm disappointed that he was "killed off". Putting Kolya with Lucius just felt completely wrong to me.

Overall a forgettable ep and one I won't be re-watching, but I'm sure the next ep will be much better.

I do also fear for S4 with all the changes, for me most of S3 has been fantastic, and way, way better than SG1 for the most part, I just hope it doesn't end up going down the same road...

gooner_diva
December 7th, 2006, 02:29 PM
SAVE KOLYA!!! RESURECT HIM! Robo-Kolya? Cyber-Kolya? Bodysnatcher Kolya? Anubolya?
BRING BACK KOLYA. Even if the plot is rubbish.

Alipeeps
December 7th, 2006, 02:30 PM
It's only fair. ;) Hell, I'd settle for Sheppard wearing pants that fit. :samanime51:

But then they wouldn't keep slipping down.. and what fun would that be? ;)


And OMG 'Misfits of Science', talk about classic 80's geekflick!!! Sadly, I own it on VHS, the original release (so old its getting crusty). Must get round to transfering to DVD. Such a classic... Johnny B Good!! That, Weird Science and Buckaroo were my favs as a kid. Thank god Buckaroo FINALLY came out on DVD because I watched my VHS to DEATH!

Um...what ep were we talking about again???

Ack! Misfits of Science... I had wondered if this was some TV show I had somewhoe missed... I hadn't realised you were talking about that movie! I *love* that movie! Jeez, I think I still have it on tape somewhere recorded off the TV like 20 years ago! :lol: (Oh my, I've just realised how depressingly old I am.... :eek:)


Hey, where'd all the crabby, grrrr people go...it's not as fun without you.

:lol: Oh dear, Ken... I tried to warn you... look at your post count! You've so gotten sucked into this place.. Have you gotten any work done in the last coupla days? :D :D


There are some much darker themes coming up. (including both my upcoming eps.) lots of gut-wrenching drama, and tons of character development for our leads.

Ken

Ooooh that sounds awesome... thanks for that tidbit! :D


We just try different things. Some work - like common ground for instance, we were very concerned that the torture angle would be too dark for our show -- and some don't. But if we never try anything new, the whole concept would get stale.

I have to admit I and quite a few others were actually quite suprised - but in a very, very good way! - about just how dark CG was and how far it went in showing a lead character being tortured. I think it was fantastic that the show had the guts to do that and take it that far and the episode was definitely the better for it; it was an absolutely enthralling, gut-wrenching, powerful ep. Possibly my favourite yet of the show...


Well, I would say it is more Teyla-driven, as it is a team ep that heavily features Teyla.

This sounds interesting too! Ooh I'm enjoying getting these little teases from you! I like Teyla as a character and it will be interesting - and good - to see a story that is driven by her character.



NJS said that the consent issues weren't even considered and JF looked completely taken aback when I mentioned the possibility - that doesn't say "black comedy gone wrong" to me - that says that you didn't realise. But that isn't an excuse.

Or maybe it says that they were surprised and somewhat taken aback at being brought to task over an issue like that in such a public forum? I'm guessing they don't go to events like that con expecting to be drawn into such discussions during a Q&A session...

TJuk
December 7th, 2006, 02:33 PM
Zombie Kolya, ascended Koyla....the possibilities are endless!

I can see him like 'The Undertaker', ya think he's dead but then he just sits up and kicks some more ass. Or maybe he was wearing a vest, that or he was pregnant. Oh oh!! Well it was a western-stylee, maybe the old 'bible/pocketwatch/small child stuffed in his jacket stopped the bullet tastic??? I just wish he'd SHOOT SOMEONE rather then 'I'm gonna do it, honest, I so mean it this time!' If he's shot one of the others, NOW that would have added a nice tasty angst factor. And it would have been cool to see Teyla be one who escaped and saved the day.

Trialia
December 7th, 2006, 02:33 PM
Or maybe it says that they were surprised and somewhat taken aback at being brought to task over an issue like that in such a public forum? I'm guessing they don't go to events like that con expecting to be drawn into such discussions during a Q&A session...

Not how Joe reacted, he hadn't even thought about it and said so.

But I believe public is the place to air things like this. It wasn't my problem alone and the issue certainly is not, so I would have felt I was betraying everyone in my own situation if I hadn't said what I did in public. It's the first time I've ever spoken about it aloud in front of more than one person though, and was possibly the bravest thing I ever did. I was shaking so hard I nearly had a damn panic attack - but it's a step forward for me, and for a great many other people in that people are now acknowledging that yes, there was a reason this episode upset us.

the dancer of spaz
December 7th, 2006, 02:33 PM
Obviously offending and hurting people - by creating a fictional character who does fictional things - never crossed our minds.

I don't think it was a black comedy "gone wrong." I think it was the very definition of black comedy. Some were offended by it, and I respect that -- but it was a story choice and we made it - and we stand by it.

I've never tried to defend it -- only give an alternate side to the argument. I personally think Lucious is pretty dispicable -- which is how I like my villains.

Again, I guess it goes back to the tone of the episode, and one's perception of what's funny. I'm sure the whole issue with Lucious seemed innocent and cute, because that's the approach the writers initially took. And, it should be noted, that's the way many people interpreted it as well.

Still, by taking a real-life issue (date rape) that affects real people (fans of the show) and making it funny, and by not showing the fictitious characters as truly angered by what he did, it made date rape and its effects into a joke, something that was laughed away and joked about within the episode. It became something that evidently deserved a revisiting some episodes later for further comedic purposes.

My biggest beef is with how indifferent the main characters behaved throughout the episode. Everything else could've stayed if Sheppard and the Gang had tackled this issue with as much intensity as they've tackled other issues in the past. The main characters are the driving moral compass in any given episode, so when they don't react appropriately to a situation, it suggests that the issue at hand isn't important enough. Whether inadvertently or not, that is the message that came across.

The franchise has addressed seriously dark issues, like slavery, genocide and war, and I don't think they've really been handled with that kind of frivolity or disregard before. I just hope, in light of how many people WERE offended by the episode from the beginning, that this is the last time that happens.

Amalthia
December 7th, 2006, 02:35 PM
Oh Boy...

I meant...if you didn't like the episode, then forget it happened. If it is going to ruin the series for you better to forget it, and move on. I wasn't saying it was forgettable. There is stuff I really love about it.

No one episode could completely ruin a series for me. It takes a continuation of one bad episodes after another to do that. This episode was forgettable the only reason I'm concerned about the quality is because I know SGA can do better. I just don't know what happened to produce this episode. Two or three nice character moments isn't enough to draw in viewers. Not when there is a lot of competition out there. the people making SGA need to know that every episode is a potential first time viewer episode.

I almost stopped watching after season two, but then the episodes Coup d tet, Inferno, the Long Goodbye (well only if I forget how Sheppard got an alien stuck in his head, because seriously...that was stupid for a military commander, next time they should grab the kitchen help to let the two dead lovebirds say their final words...then if they turned out to be aliens that want to kill each other they don't have all the access codes to the city) but anyway..... the end of season 2 had some good stuff happening and season three has been going rather well so far until this episode.

And I actually do want a fifth season and apparently SGA needs to draw in more viewers which isn't going to happen if episodes like this one become more common.

Sheppard's Delight
December 7th, 2006, 02:36 PM
Or maybe it says that they were surprised and somewhat taken aback at being brought to task over an issue like that in such a public forum? I'm guessing they don't go to events like that con expecting to be drawn into such discussions during a Q&A session...

I agree.

ToasterOnFire
December 7th, 2006, 02:36 PM
"Crabby grrr" person reporting in. :D


Well someone hasn't been reading this thread...
Wait, I thought the writers were baffled by all the fandom controversy about the rape aspect and that they didn't intend things to be read that way at all. Having controversy due to fandom interpretation isn't the same thing as intentionally inserting controversy into the show. :P


To me it seems the negative reaction comes not from Lucious using the drug (He is a villain in Irresistable afterall) but that it was in a comedy episode.
That's a large part of it for me - Lucius's darker actions were embedded into this sitcom-ish episode and therefore didn't get as dark as I guess I was hoping they would. It had a feel of "Funny, bumbling guy, funny, Atlantis crew falling over themselves, funny, drug rape, funny" where the drug rape didn't fit in with the lighthearted feeling of this ep. Tying up everything at the end with a nice bow also took some impact away from Lucius's actions. And I'm not saying that was the writer's intent AT ALL, just how I interpreted it. Hindsight is 20/20, but I think that it would have been better if Lucius was some goofy yet creepy guy who manipulated others without introducing the aspect of him taking advantage of all those women.

I'm happy to hear that there's at least one Teyla-driven ep down the road, and I'm definitely looking forward to the promised darker eps! :)

ozchick
December 7th, 2006, 02:36 PM
BRING BACK KOLYA. Even if the plot is rubbish.

Perhaps they can or at least have a Kolya jr. In the storm there was mention of Kolya having a son or something. I can't remember whether he had been killed in some battle or if he was still alive. (Too lazy to go back and watch it today) Anyhoo, maybe they could have Kolya jr. (if he's still alive) come back for revenge on our Shep. Just a thought. Probably a stupid one but hey, who knows. Stranger things have happened.

silence
December 7th, 2006, 02:37 PM
ahh... "Submersion" is yours Ken?
Oh man... i already have wild ideas about that one, now i am pretty sure it will be good... CANT wait for it.

And Teyla-centric ep?... that's really needed.

As for forgetting this one... it's kinda imprinted as one of the worst eps of SG...



Can you tell us just one bit of info more? Please, just hint that Lucius won't appear again if you can... please? pretty please? with cherry on top?
:D

Trialia
December 7th, 2006, 02:37 PM
I agree.
It was necessary. I'm not going to apologise for doing it.

macktheknife
December 7th, 2006, 02:38 PM
perhaps Weir can be the nurse.\

Jewel Staite instead?

Alipeeps
December 7th, 2006, 02:39 PM
Perhaps they can or at least have a Kolya jr. In the storm there was mention of Kolya having a son or something. I can't remember whether he had been killed in some battle or if he was still alive. (Too lazy to go back and watch it today) Anyhoo, maybe they could have Kolya jr. (if he's still alive) come back for revenge on our Shep. Just a thought. Probably a stupid one but hey, who knows. Stranger things have happened.


No there wasn't. Kolya asked if someone else's son (presumably a friend's son) had made it through to Atlantis before the shield was raised. There was never any mention of him having a son. Doesn't mean he hasn't though.... ;)

psychofilly
December 7th, 2006, 02:39 PM
We need Cadman back to blow sh... stuff up. Explosions make everything better. Heck she could blow up Kolya's body. That's a ratings grabber right there.

I think part of the problem is that many of us (myself included) are pre-judging Irresponsible, based on Irresistable. If the former had never happened, and we didn't prejudge Lucius as a skeevy rapist, then the latter might not have had quite as much negative reaction.

I definitely find it better than The Tower, though I've forgiven The Tower for being quite so bad after I found out there was a cut scene where John turns the bimbo princess down. The man passed the Mensa exam, so I knew he couldn't be *that* dumb. Plus, I just fanwanked that he sucked some face, copped a really good feel, and then sent her on her way. Plus it had a point. We were able to resupply. And it gets points for having a knife-fight. You can't go wrong with those.

Irresponsible just felt like filler. Other than killing Kolya, nothing of real consequence seemed to happen. There were a few character moments, but we didn't do any trading, we didn't really gain much one way or the other.

For me, John being ready to pull the trigger but Kolya escaping would have made more sense. (I thought thet Kolya would find a way to get and use the sheild for himself there at the begining) He could have been used to either cement or tear apart the Genii alliance down the road. Kolya was reduced to thinking small, but his long term goals were big, man, and that interested me enough that I was hoping the inevitable showdown would be put off for a better episode.

Alipeeps
December 7th, 2006, 02:40 PM
It was necessary. I'm not going to apologise for doing it.

Necessary in your view - others may have found it somewhat inappropriate to the circumstances. But hey.. horses for courses, I guess....

Trialia
December 7th, 2006, 02:41 PM
Necessary in your view - others may have found it somewhat inappropriate to the circumstances. But hey.. horses for courses, I guess....

It was a question that needed to be asked and answered in public, and that was my only opportunity to do that.

Alipeeps
December 7th, 2006, 02:42 PM
I definitely find it better than The Tower, though I've forgiven The Tower for being quite so bad after I found out there was a cut scene where John turns the bimbo princess down. The man passed the Mensa exam, so I knew he couldn't be *that* dumb. Plus, I just fanwanked that he sucked some face, copped a really good feel, and then sent her on her way.

That's interesting because I didn't know about the cut scene but I honestly always interpreted that scene as showing that Sheppard turned her down. He was surprised and probably flattered but he quickly realised what was going on and put a stop to it. That's what I'd always thought from viewing that ep?

Linzi
December 7th, 2006, 02:43 PM
Necessary in your view - others may have found it somewhat inappropriate to the circumstances. But hey.. horses for courses, I guess....
AGREED!

Alipeeps
December 7th, 2006, 02:43 PM
It was a question that needed to be asked and answered in public, and that was my only opportunity to do that.

In your opinion. Not saying you don't have any right to your opinion, just that others may have a differing view.

silence
December 7th, 2006, 02:43 PM
Zombie Kolya, ascended Koyla....the possibilities are endless!

ASURAN version of Kolya!!!! .... they were acctually following the team and gathring inteligence on how to beat Atlantis and found out Kolya has the hey... so they download his memories and one of them takes his form?

I could live with that.... anytime :D

Linzi
December 7th, 2006, 02:44 PM
That's interesting because I didn't know about the cut scene but I honestly always interpreted that scene as showing that Sheppard turned her down. He was surprised and probably flattered but he quickly realised what was going on and put a stop to it. That's what I'd always thought from viewing that ep?
Me too. I understand that Sheppard turning her down was originally in the script but was edited out. Goodness knows why.

Trialia
December 7th, 2006, 02:44 PM
AGREED!

If you thought it was inappropriate, then we'll just have to agree to disagree. I think asking it in private would have been, as I've said, a betrayal of everyone who was upset by the episode including myself. In good conscience I could not do it, no matter how much nerve it took me to ask it in public.

Sheppard's Delight
December 7th, 2006, 02:45 PM
ASURAN version of Kolya!!!! .... they were acctually following the team and gathring inteligence on how to beat Atlantis and found out Kolya has the hey... so they download his memories and one of them takes his form?

I could live with that.... anytime :D

Oh is there a 'How should Kolya be resurrected?' thread yet?

Pitry
December 7th, 2006, 02:46 PM
I feel like it *is* possible to have a silly episode switch gears and be really dark. I've seen it done, and done well. The problem in my opinion is once the *twist* happens and the sillyness is peeled away, you have to go balls to the wall with it. Pulling back into the "ha ha, isn't this funny!" mode doesn't work for me.

Which is exactly what I meant. :) If you turn a comedy into a drama - and it has been done successfully, and has been done on Stargate successfully, too - you can;t go back to your comedy and remain true to the story you're telling, methinks. Which is why you'd have to compromie, either the silyness or the darker theme will have to, eventually, go.


I realize a show like SGA can't have several episodes where all the characters are in therapy because of what almost happened to them is going overboard, but at the same time and ending that didn't make a joke about the entire issue and left the viewers feeling the characters discomfort would have given the episode a lot more of a payoff.

I shoudln't prolly reply that part, as that's exactly where I'm pissed off with Sheppar din this episode. I dind't feel Common Ground happened. God knows I don't want therapy sessions for SGA, but the compelte lack of connection to Kolya (yeah, I realise I'm turning away from the Lucius discussion :P) pissed me off to no end.


At least in Irresponsible, Lucius upgraded to staging raids to impress the ladies. It's still a lie, but at least they had a choice in the matter. For me, this episode works Ken's Nutty Professor example much better than the first episode. Lucius didn't change his appearance, but he certainly misrepresented himself, and then relied on his (dubious) charms to worm his way into the heart of the village. They weren't getting the package they were originally sold.

I think |Lucius also worked a bit ebtter for me in Irresponsible because it was les of a silly episode. The sillyness was there, the comedy was there, but it felt more like a lighthearted action/advanture Stargate episode than a Stargate comedy. To borrow from seasno 10, it felt more like Uninvited that 200. Which I think goes back to the sillyness - toning down the sillynes, even for just a bit, enabled to deal with darker issues better.

Trialia
December 7th, 2006, 02:46 PM
In your opinion. Not saying you don't have any right to your opinion, just that others may have a differing view.

And here we come up against the "conspiracy of silence" again. Sexual assault and issues involving it are one of the few remaining social "taboos" in public discussion, and do you have any idea how many people still don't report it when it happens to them because people like you say it's "not something that should be talked about in public"?

Someone should stand up for the people who can't speak out about it, and if that someone has to be me, then so be it. I won't shirk that duty. Amanda called it "sisterhood and solidarity", and she's right.

Alipeeps
December 7th, 2006, 02:47 PM
I'm loving all these wild theories on how to possibly bring back Kolya... Ken, I'm dying to know what yours was? Cmon... care to share? ;) :D

Wolf Eire
December 7th, 2006, 02:47 PM
ASURAN version of Kolya!!!! .... they were acctually following the team and gathring inteligence on how to beat Atlantis and found out Kolya has the hey... so they download his memories and one of them takes his form?

I could live with that.... anytime :D

Or he was always an Asurian and was sent to infiltrate the Genii. He just gets back to his feet when no one is looking and runs off.:cool:

Alipeeps
December 7th, 2006, 02:49 PM
And here we come up against the "conspiracy of silence" again. Sexual assault and issues involving it are one of the few remaining social "taboos" in public discussion, and do you have any idea how many people still don't report it when it happens to them because people like you say it's "not something that should be talked about in public"?

Never said anything of the sort so don't put words in my mouth. You are welcome to your opinion of course but blaming "people like" me - someone about whom you know nothing - for women not coming forward to report sexual assault does no favours to the credibility of your argument.

And this is getting way off topic so how about we go back to discussing the episode?

I'd like to know if Mckay's attempt to dig out of the cell with a spoon was a deliberate homage/reference to The Shawshank Redemption? :lol:

lord-anubis
December 7th, 2006, 02:50 PM
I'm loving all these wild theories on how to possibly bring back Kolya... Ken, I'm dying to know what yours was? Cmon... care to share? ;) :D

well we just saw him get shoot but dident really see him die. i don;t know they could just say he lived. or they found some device the heal him or bought him back to life or he could be a cylon lol

Melyanna
December 7th, 2006, 02:51 PM
That's interesting because I didn't know about the cut scene but I honestly always interpreted that scene as showing that Sheppard turned her down. He was surprised and probably flattered but he quickly realised what was going on and put a stop to it. That's what I'd always thought from viewing that ep?
Bit off-topic, but it was a couple lines cut, not a whole scene. I definitely interpreted it as him having sent her back to her room, but that was probably because I read the draft where Sheppard stated outright that he had sent her back to her room. Given what I remember from the casting sides and from the episode itself, I think it's reasonable to assume that those lines were dropped in the editing room. There were some shots and facial expressions that made little sense without them.

Er, anyway.

psychofilly
December 7th, 2006, 02:52 PM
I shoudln't prolly reply that part, as that's exactly where I'm pissed off with Sheppar din this episode. I dind't feel Common Ground happened. God knows I don't want therapy sessions for SGA, but the compelte lack of connection to Kolya (yeah, I realise I'm turning away from the Lucius discussion :P) pissed me off to no end.


It's a valid point and actually has to do with the episode, so go on and make it. I've seen several posts that have stated the exact same thing. I agree. I got the point that John had finally learned his lesson. Kolya needed to die, but it didn't seem personal. After Common Ground, it should have been more personal for John.

John's not like Caldwell. (I love Caldwell's attitude in Echoes. If the whales are killing you, then extinct the sons of *****es... problem solved!). Anyway, John has always, deep down been lead by emotion and his own moral compass. Kolya really jacked with both. I was definitely looking for more of a reaction.

LoveConquers
December 7th, 2006, 02:53 PM
I personally did not mind this episode. It wasn't my favorite, but it's not my most-hated one either. Lucius is an annoying cad and was even more so in this episode. I would have preferred not to see him again, but I do understand what the writer's intended with this one. I am glad to see that the writers are not afraid to try different things, such as the darker tones of CG, or the comedic tones of this episode. It's always a learning experience, and I for one am glad they continue to flex their writing minds and try new things, rather then repeat the same over and over again.

What I did like about this episode was the team moments. There were some great lines that made me smile and laugh! I personally liked the Western undertheme, too bad the village couldn't have helped tie that in. :) I am hoping this will not be the last of Kolya, which I suspect is the reason we never got official confirmation on his status...leaving the door open for possibilities...
I loved the boys teasing Teyla in the teaser about her "superhero." I loved the team's discussion on their childhood heroes and love knowing that they picked them out themselves. Thank you, Ken, for sharing that little tidbit with us!
I loved John initial reaction when seeing Koyla, and John and Teyla's little standoff in the house over how to proceed.
I loved Rodney trying to dig them out with a spoon!
I loved Ronon's attitude throughout this episode.
I loved all the team's facial expressions throughout this episode. I thought the actors did a marvelous job with their expressions and tone, as they always do. They can say so much more this way than any spoken line can at times.
I loved the end when the little boy kicked Lucius and he finally felt it. I loved the team's comments as they walked away and Carson patting Teyla on the back.

I did not like Lucius. I was disappointed in how quickly Kolya was resolved. I would have preferred he got his own episode, so I am hoping he will eventually come back. But overall, because of the team moments, I was OK with this episode and took it for what it was meant to be.

Ken, I also wanted to thank you so very much for taking the time to come here and discuss this episode and others with us. It is such a privilege and an honor; thank you! I am excited to see your upcoming episodes, especially Submersion! I am very sorry to hear your involvement next year will be minimal. I hope that changes. Please know I appreciate your time and commitment to these wonderful characters that give us a lovely escape from real life from time to time!

Steph

Alipeeps
December 7th, 2006, 02:53 PM
well we just saw him get shoot but dident really see him die. i don;t know they could just say he lived. or they found some device the heal him or bought him back to life or he could be a cylon lol

:lol: I love it! :D

Trialia
December 7th, 2006, 02:54 PM
Never said anything of the sort so don't put words in my mouth. You are welcome to your opinion of course but blaming "people like" me - someone about whom you know nothing - for women not coming forward to report sexual assault does no favours to the credibility of your argument.

The words aren't being put in your mouth specifically. But the media have a responsibility and if people are given examples like this, where SA is made badly comedic, that's not going to encourage anyone to come forward about it.

Honestly, Ali, I don't care whether you in particular think my argument is credible or not, because you don't listen to me two-thirds of the time when I say anything anyway. There's a reason I usually have you on ignore, and it's because you irritate the little blue monkeys from my hair.

Luz
December 7th, 2006, 02:54 PM
\

Jewel Staite instead?

Yes, Weir is too interesting, sophisticated, and complex as a character to be reduced to the mere role of the bimbo, I'd rather see her used in something with more substance to it than mere eye candy, not that she's no a delight to look at mind you.

And let me join the "let's bring Kolya back" group, I have no problems in pretending Irresponsible didn't happen, I'm forgetting about it already.

ETA: About the Tower, to me if it's not mentioned or shown on-screen it didn't happen, so I still think Sheppard slept with her, regardless of any scenes that might or might not have been cut.

Trialia
December 7th, 2006, 02:56 PM
Yes, Weir is too interesting, sophisticated, and complex as a character to be reduced to the mere role of the bimbo, I'd rather see her used in something with more substance to it than mere eye candy, not that she's no a delight to look at mind you.

And let me join the "let's bring Kolya back" group, I have no problems in pretending Irresponsible didn't happen, I'm forgetting about it already.

ETA: About the Tower, to me if it's not mentioned or shown on-screen it didn't happen, so I still think Sheppard slept with her, regardless of any scenes that might or might not have been cut.
Ain't that the truth! She's not used enough as a character.

Yep, forgettable is certainly a word I could use to characterise "Irresponsible".

gooner_diva
December 7th, 2006, 02:57 PM
well we just saw him get shoot but dident really see him die. i don;t know they could just say he lived. or they found some device the heal him or bought him back to life or he could be a cylon lol
Since the writers are using the explanations for how Goa'uld shields work and applying them to Ancient technology, I'm not ruling out the possibility of an Ancient looking Goa'uld healing device or sarcophagus in the Pegasus galaxy. :P Anything for Kolya.

RecycledFunk
December 7th, 2006, 02:58 PM
Still, by taking a real-life issue (date rape) that affects real people (fans of the show) and making it funny, and by not showing the fictitious characters as truly angered by what he did, it made date rape and its effects into a joke, something that was laughed away and joked about within the episode. It became something that evidently deserved a revisiting some episodes later for further comedic purposes.

The franchise has addressed seriously dark issues, like slavery, genocide and war, and I don't think they've really been handled with that kind of frivolity or disregard before. I just hope, in light of how many people WERE offended by the episode from the beginning, that this is the last time that happens.

I honestly think it just never crossed the writers' minds that Lucius' actions would be taken this way.

For example: Look at McKay's allergies. Those of us that have life-threatening food allergies have to deal with it every single day. It's not a joke. It's embarrassing, inconvenient and down-right frightening. Anaphylaxis is a serious matter and it's awareness is practically nonexistent by those who aren't threatened with it.

Now, maybe I should be offended by the writers for making McKay's allergies a bit of a joke. But you know, I LOL'd when Cam threatened Rodney with a lemon, cuz it was dang funny!

But that doesn't mean I wouldn't love to see the writers do their part for Anaphylaxis awareness and show the public exactly what happens to someone when they're attacked by it. I don't think (correct me if I'm wrong) a series has ever had a main character with this condition and I think the writers are in a perfect position to make use of it. It would make the FAAN's job a little easier ;) and make a lot of fans happy (and not just the Rodney Whumpers!).

Uh, I did have a point here somewhere...Ah! Yeah. Irresistible wasn't meant to address the subject of rape. Pegasus Project wasn't meant to address the subject of Anaphylaxis. I do believe that should the writers ever choose to address either subject, it would be done with professionalism and sensitivity.

I hope.

Amalthia
December 7th, 2006, 02:59 PM
Yep, forgettable is certainly a word I could use to characterise "Irresponsible".

I think as a writer "forgettable" is like the worst insult for a story.

TheReturnOfTheLantian
December 7th, 2006, 03:00 PM
i watched this ep today and i really did enjoy it Lucius w/e his name got alittle annoying. but hes just annoying :P but far from that i enjoyed this episode

Trialia
December 7th, 2006, 03:01 PM
I think as a writer "forgettable" is like the worst insult for a story.
Well, that's unfortunate, but it certainly wasn't one of their best. If it had been more like Common Ground, and minus Lucius, I'd probably have enjoyed it.

Luz
December 7th, 2006, 03:02 PM
Couldn't it be like in the Eye when he got shot, and then he appeared later, and it had only been the shoulder?.
So we all so him going down, but this happens in sci-fi all the time, some one is apparently killed, and is shown dying, and yes, they're really *REALLY* dead for realz, and then they show up alive. Happened a lot on TXF.

Alipeeps
December 7th, 2006, 03:02 PM
Honestly, Ali, I don't care whether you in particular think my argument is credible or not, because you don't listen to me two-thirds of the time when I say anything anyway.

Now who's not listening? I didn't say your argument was not credible, I said the way you were seeming to place blame on me - or "people like" me, when you don't know enough about me to know what I'm "like" - for reluctance to report sexual abuse does not help the credibility of your argument.

I do listen, you see - I just often happen to disagree.. if that bothers you then I'm sorry but you know what they say about opinions... everyone's got one.

I'm honoured to be on your ignore list. ;)


However, as I already mentioned, waaaaaay off topic here.

So... how bout that Irresponsible then? :)

Did I mention that I really enjoyed Ronon in this - he seemed to be given a little more to do than the usual stoicism or simmering anger.. his "hero" comment at the beginning was wonderful... :D

Amalthia
December 7th, 2006, 03:03 PM
For example: Look at McKay's allergies. Those of us that have life-threatening food allergies have to deal with it every single day. It's not a joke. It's embarrassing, inconvenient and down-right frightening. Anaphylaxis is a serious matter and it's awareness is practically nonexistent by those who aren't threatened with it.

I'm surprised they haven't had an episode where McKay gets Anaphylaxis because I was under the impression he has a lot of allergies.

lord-anubis
December 7th, 2006, 03:05 PM
[QUOTE=Alipeeps;6076313
Did I mention that I really enjoyed Ronon in this - he seemed to be given a little more to do than the usual stoicism or simmering anger.. his "hero" comment at the beginning was wonderful... :D[/QUOTE]

yeah he was good in this ep when talking about his hero lol my fave line from him was when he said we well have to kill them all im ok with that by the way lol

Trialia
December 7th, 2006, 03:05 PM
Oh, I'm listening. I'm just still a little sick from that accidental overdose, so if I missed anything and generalised inadvertently rather more than I intended, I apologise for that. I'm not laying any blame on people for not wanting to report sexual assault if it happens to them - what I am saying is that perpetuating the societal attitude that it's something to be ashamed of is a wrong thing to do. And I stand by that.


Ronon is getting a better character as time goes on, I agree with that.

lord-anubis
December 7th, 2006, 03:07 PM
Couldn't it be like in the Eye when he got shot, and then he appeared later, and it had only been the shoulder?.

lol well thats what i think he was taken a way petty fast when he got shot i think or we dident say any more of him in the ep

Pitry
December 7th, 2006, 03:10 PM
It's a valid point and actually has to do with the episode, so go on and make it. I've seen several posts that have stated the exact same thing. I agree. I got the point that John had finally learned his lesson. Kolya needed to die, but it didn't seem personal. After Common Ground, it should have been more personal for John.

John's not like Caldwell. (I love Caldwell's attitude in Echoes. If the whales are killing you, then extinct the sons of *****es... problem solved!). Anyway, John has always, deep down been lead by emotion and his own moral compass. Kolya really jacked with both. I was definitely looking for more of a reaction.

Oh, Coldwell. I grant the benefit of the doubt about Coldwell, that he's such a fascilitator character that it doesn't matter that they turned him into a Goa'uld in one episode and three episodes later it only rewarded him with a couple of comments, no actual substance for the character. that pissed me off to no end, btu then again, he's a side cahracter to make the stry flow, so okay.

I agree competely about John. He should be much more passionate. But I don't see it. Definitely don't see it in Irresponsible - he reacted to Kolya as if he was just another bad guy. Even killing Kolya didn't feel personal, and no western montage is going to change that. Y'know what, I coudl have survived the lack of facial/ body language on his dealigns with Kolya had there been a scene to close that up, like... the tag scene for Before I Sleep, maybe. that was a great "I'm tryign to deal with it" moment for Weir. When there's no comment about it, at all, it turns Sheppard into a very 2 dimensional character -"Kolya is a bad guy so he must die, I have no rpoblem with what I did or how things played out".

[/rant] ;)

Trialia
December 7th, 2006, 03:12 PM
Pitry... I agree. There wasn't enough personal venom between the two of them in this episode as there had been before, as there should have been, which is kind of what made it so anti-climactic a confrontation.

Alipeeps
December 7th, 2006, 03:12 PM
I honestly think it just never crossed the writers' minds that Lucius' actions would be taken this way.

For example: Look at McKay's allergies. Those of us that have life-threatening food allergies have to deal with it every single day. It's not a joke. It's embarrassing, inconvenient and down-right frightening. Anaphylaxis is a serious matter and it's awareness is practically nonexistent by those who aren't threatened with it.

Now, maybe I should be offended by the writers for making McKay's allergies a bit of a joke. But you know, I LOL'd when Cam threatened Rodney with a lemon, cuz it was dang funny!

But that doesn't mean I wouldn't love to see the writers do their part for Anaphylaxis awareness and show the public exactly what happens to someone when they're attacked by it. I don't think (correct me if I'm wrong) a series has ever had a main character with this condition and I think the writers are in a perfect position to make use of it. It would make the FAAN's job a little easier ;) and make a lot of fans happy (and not just the Rodney Whumpers!).

Uh, I did have a point here somewhere...Ah! Yeah. Irresistible wasn't meant to address the subject of rape. Pegasus Project wasn't meant to address the subject of Anaphylaxis. I do believe that should the writers ever choose to address either subject, it would be done with professionalism and sensitivity.

I hope.

That is a very good point. Thanks for that. I have a niece who has a deadly nut allergy - and it really is a LOT more dangerous and restricting than you could ever believe if you hadn't intimate experience with it... I was stunned for example to realise that her mother has to be careful what face cream she buys in case it were to contain nut oil and her daughter were to kiss her goodnight and... you see? Really serious, deadly stuff that could equally be said to be not taken seriously enough by the public etc... and the show has very definitely made light of it - in particular in The Pegasus Project (okay, I know it's a SG1 ep but bear with me, it did involve an SGA character after all) but I laughed at that moment.

Yes, on deeper examination of the ep I can certainly agree that food allergy is a serious subject and the ep can be considered to have treated it lightly and detracted from the seriousness of the issue - but on the other hand I can also accept that this is an entertainment show and that the writers never had any intent to deal in any way with such a serious issue and that, whilst it may be unfortunate that they inadvertently in some way could be said to have trivialised a serious issue, I can take the show on face value.

That is pretty much my feelings on Irrestible too... (see, the above ramble was kinda on topic... :o )

Pitry
December 7th, 2006, 03:20 PM
That is a very good point. Thanks for that. I have a niece who has a deadly nut allergy - and it really is a LOT more dangerous and restricting than you could ever believe if you hadn't intimate experience with it... I was stunned for example to realise that her mother has to be careful what face cream she buys in case it were to contain nut oil and her daughter were to kiss her goodnight and... you see? Really serious, deadly stuff that could equally be said to be not taken seriously enough by the public etc... and the show has very definitely made light of it - in particular in The Pegasus Project (okay, I know it's a SG1 ep but bear with me, it did involve an SGA character after all) but I laughed at that moment.

Yes, on deeper examination of the ep I can certainly agree that food allergy is a serious subject and the ep can be considered to have treated it lightly and detracted from the seriousness of the issue - but on the other hand I can also accept that this is an entertainment show and that the writers never had any intent to deal in any way with such a serious issue and that, whilst it may be unfortunate that they inadvertently in some way could be said to have trivialised a serious issue, I can take the show on face value.

That is pretty much my feelings on Irrestible too... (see, the above ramble was kinda on topic... :o )

I'm sorry if I'm going to sound blind to allergic people's problems - I'm not honestly, and while I don't know personally what a burden it is I can see where you're coming from - but I think the differnece ebtween making fun of rape and making fun of allergies is the point Triala was trying to make.

No allergic person is being blamed as a person who brought this upon himself. o allergic person is being under continuous attack from other people (supporters of the rapist/ sexual harrasor, his family, etc). I specifically think right now of more public cases, as both a minister and the president of Israel, where I live, are prolly going to end up in trial for rape/ sexual harrassement, and you see some people's reactinos, you get that point quite clear. Unliek allergies, or murder victims, the example I gave somewhere 4 pages or so ago :) - rape/ sexual harrassement victims are in a continuous fight agaisnt a lot of other people. That area is so much greyer. Which is exactly why makign light of rape would earn you much more backlash than any other thing. It's stilld eveloping, it's still not taken for granted, it's still sensitive enough that turning it into a comedy - or ignoring it for the sake of comedy, which is what happened in Irresistable - is much more dangerous.

Alipeeps
December 7th, 2006, 03:22 PM
yeah he was good in this ep when talking about his hero lol my fave line from him was when he said we well have to kill them all im ok with that by the way lol

Oh goodness, I loved that line! So down to earth and typically Ronon... :D

psychofilly
December 7th, 2006, 03:22 PM
Yes, on deeper examination of the ep I can certainly agree that food allergy is a serious subject and the ep can be considered to have treated it lightly and detracted from the seriousness of the issue - but on the other hand I can also accept that this is an entertainment show and that the writers never had any intent to deal in any way with such a serious issue and that, whilst it may be unfortunate that they inadvertently in some way could be said to have trivialised a serious issue, I can take the show on face value.

This would be cool to write though, simply because it would be really super duper cool to see Rodney go down hard and have the rest of his team deal with it.

It feels like they tease him about it because they simply have never seen it. While I don't think the show is in any way trying to trivialize it. (I had to roll my eyes at all the LEMON OF DOOM posts on Live Journal at the time). I do think it would be interesting for the show to go there. It would be a nice way to show how regular problems can be compounded by living in another galaxy and being on an active gate team. It could even be in the teaser as a way to get Rodney sidelined for an episode focusing on another character. (Not that getting shot in the gluteous maximus slowed him down much).

Part of it is that I wish the show would deal a little more with the realities of being out so far with only a tenuous connection to earth. Of course I'm still waiting for the Losties to run out of deoderant and soap and they get around that, so why not SGA too.

TJuk
December 7th, 2006, 03:23 PM
Personally I think bringing up such an issue at a con Q&A is wrong, especially if there are children in the audience. I respect your want...even need because of strong feelings to bring it up in public. But at the end of the day SGA is (supposed to be) a family show. I'm not a mother, but having such abuse in the family I know its an issue I would NOT want discussed in front of my child by strangers. Besides being a 'personally interupted aspect of the show' did you stop to think of the effect such discussions would have on others? Not to mention Joe is an ACTOR, he portrays what he gets paid for, he has no real say over the writing and is told by the director how to interupt the script within reason. Asking NJS far does, he's a producer, he gets paid to take the heat. But asking JF, I personally find that incredibly unfair. Plus YOU may be happy to shout about it in public but there may have been others in the audience who have also suffered such abuse who may have been upset by it. its not a taboo subject, its just a very sensitive one that should be dealt with with sensitivity and respect. One of the reasons people seem so pissed by Iressistable is it not?

Alipeeps
December 7th, 2006, 03:23 PM
I'm sorry if I'm going to sound blind to allergic people's problems - I'm not honestly, and while I don't know personally what a burden it is I can see where you're coming from - but I think the differnece ebtween making fun of rape and making fun of allergies is the point Triala was trying to make.

No allergic person is being blamed as a person who brought this upon himself. o allergic person is being under continuous attack from other people (supporters of the rapist/ sexual harrasor, his family, etc). I specifically think right now of more public cases, as both a minister and the president of Israel, where I live, are prolly going to end up in trial for rape/ sexual harrassement, and you see some people's reactinos, you get that point quite clear. Unliek allergies, or murder victims, the example I gave somewhere 4 pages or so ago :) - rape/ sexual harrassement victims are in a continuous fight agaisnt a lot of other people. That area is so much greyer. Which is exactly why makign light of rape would earn you much more backlash than any other thing. It's stilld eveloping, it's still not taken for granted, it's still sensitive enough that turning it into a comedy - or ignoring it for the sake of comedy, which is what happened in Irresistable - is much more dangerous.

I see your point, I do - I just thought it was an interesting comparison. :)

Amalthia
December 7th, 2006, 03:25 PM
but on the other hand I can also accept that this is an entertainment show and that the writers never had any intent to deal in any way with such a serious issue and that, whilst it may be unfortunate that they inadvertently in some way could be said to have trivialised a serious issue, I can take the show on face value.


maybe the difference between a food allergy (even a severe one) and the rape issue is that more people have experienced rape/sexual abuse than have had allergies severe enough to kill them. So people jump on the trivialisation of the rape issue a lot faster.

Trialia
December 7th, 2006, 03:26 PM
TJuk - yes, I did thoroughly consider the ramifications of what I was doing before I did it.

Just so you're aware, nobody actually complained directly to me after the talk, and I was recognisable enough in green face paint, but two women came up to me and said I was brave for speaking out like that and one said she wished she could have done it herself.

I know too many people personally who've been affected negatively by this episode to let it slide under the carpet.

Also, I didn't ask JF specifically, he just happened to be the first to respond to the question.

Trialia
December 7th, 2006, 03:28 PM
maybe the difference between a food allergy (even a severe one) and the rape issue is that more people have experienced rape/sexual abuse than have had allergies severe enough to kill them. So people jump on the trivialisation of the rape issue a lot faster.
That, and I would have thought most people didn't find their allergies a traumatic experience unless they actually go into anaphylactic shock - and yes, I do have allergies and I have experienced anaphylaxis.

Alipeeps
December 7th, 2006, 03:30 PM
This would be cool to write though, simply because it would be really super duper cool to see Rodney go down hard and have the rest of his team deal with it.

It feels like they tease him about it because they simply have never seen it. While I don't think the show is in any way trying to trivialize it. (I had to roll my eyes at all the LEMON OF DOOM posts on Live Journal at the time). I do think it would be interesting for the show to go there. It would be a nice way to show how regular problems can be compounded by living in another galaxy and being on an active gate team. It could even be in the teaser as a way to get Rodney sidelined for an episode focusing on another character. (Not that getting shot in the gluteous maximus slowed him down much).

Part of it is that I wish the show would deal a little more with the realities of being out so far with only a tenuous connection to earth. Of course I'm still waiting for the Losties to run out of deoderant and soap and they get around that, so why not SGA too.

I know this is getting OT again but I'm gonna go with it briefly.. ;)

My take on McKay's allergies is that I'm not quite sure how real they are. Maybe it's lack of understanding of the serious of such things and the precautions needed etc on behalf of the writers because the way the subject is portrayed inclines me to think that he exagerates it (we do know he is something of a hypochondriac). If he really had a serious food allergy, I cannot see him even being allowed to go off-world as part of an active gate team. He would certainly have to carry epi-pens everywhere and his team would have to be trained in their use and taught to treat his allergy as a very serious thing - and he would certainly never be able to risk eating any food or drink off-world without in some way testing it first.

As I say, maybe it's ignorance of the realities of such allergies and the writers intend for us to believe that he really does have them but the way it is portrayed makes me suspect he doesn't really - or that it's only a mild allergy.

[/OT]

Ummm... topic... is it shallow to mention that Sheppard looked fab with the sunglasses on in this ep? :D

ShadowMaat
December 7th, 2006, 03:31 PM
The allergy thing is shown entirely as a joke, with no darker repercussions, that's why it works. If Rodney had ended up on a respirator or lapsed into a coma or something dire like that after accidentally ingesting some citrus, would it still have been as funny when Cam "threatened" him with a lemon? Probably not. But because it's always treated lightly and because frankly I think we only have Rodney's word that he does have these conditions, he (and they) can get away with it. My opinion, of course.

Major Fischer
December 7th, 2006, 03:31 PM
I don't have a lot to say on this subject so I'll be short.

It's unfortunate that the writers didn't understand that many women would find the episode offensive. It's even more unfortunate that some people are defending the episode by trying to say it's not about rape. It was, unintentionally and that is probably the most tragic thing about it, about rape. It made light of something that shouldn't be made light of, and it leaves me with the only conclusion that the characters don't care about the potential sexual violation of strangers or friends alike. That's not a position I'd like to be defending. My honest advise to the writer, who seems like a nice enough guy, is stop defending it. You are pouring gasoline on a fire, and not winning any converts.

It really doesn't matter if you as an individual don't think the subject should have been addressed in public at a con. You not the reason that discussion needed to be in public, it was for the woman sitting six seats down or twelve rows back who found herself in a bad situation because someone she trusted got her drunk or worse, and who has kept that shame within her for months or years. Or the woman who could have found herself in that position that night at that con and managed to get out of it because she was thinking about something she might not have before the subject came up. Maybe I see this differently, but it has happened to more than one friend of mine, and my mother taught me never to accept a drink from a man at a party and never to drink from a container I didn't open at a party. I have been aware and guarded against those dangers since I was sixteen.

Rape is a crime with two tramatic wounds, that imposed by the attacker, and that imposed by society. I wish I could say I was surprised to see the attitudes expressed here, but I'm not. We haven't come all that far.

TJuk
December 7th, 2006, 03:32 PM
TJuk - yes, I did thoroughly consider the ramifications of what I was doing before I did it.

Just so you're aware, nobody actually complained directly to me after the talk, and I was recognisable enough in green face paint, but two women came up to me and said I was brave for speaking out like that and one said she wished she could have done it herself.

I know too many people personally who've been affected negatively by this episode to let it slide under the carpet.

Kudos for being so brave about such a controversial issue, I'm sure if public onfrontation was encouraged, more rapists and abuser would be caught. But dont you think it was completely unfair to bring such an issue up to the actor? I mean, cons are meant to be fun and you're walking a fine line there. Not to mention people no doubt affected will be more sensitive to these issues then the casual viewer who probably didn't think about it. Hell I know I didn't and I'm unfortunately more then aware.

Trialia
December 7th, 2006, 03:32 PM
Ali-- yes, I don't think Rodney's allergies are portrayed especially well either, tbh. I have to avoid all sorts of stuff, there's no way he would be able to eat something offworld without checking with the cook for citrus first, and what if they don't understand what citrus is?

Trialia
December 7th, 2006, 03:34 PM
Kudos for being so brave about such a controversial issue, I'm sure if public onfrontation was encouraged, more rapists and abuser would be caught. But dont you think it was completely unfair to bring such an issue up to the actor? I mean, cons are meant to be fun and you're walking a fine line there. Not to mention people no doubt affected will be more sensitive to these issues then the casual viewer who probably didn't think about it. Hell I know I didn't and I'm unfortunately more then aware.
I was actually trying to ask John Smith rather than Joe, tbh, but Joe decided to answer the question and then hand it off to John anyway. I wasn't really asking him to begin with.

As I've already said - that may have been the only opportunity I'd get to ask that question in a public forum so I went ahead and I asked it, and I'll be honest, I got the answer I'd expected.

And yes, the casual viewer may not have thought about it. But there are a lot of fans I've talked with who did and many who were upset by it; as I've already said, the societal reaction to something like this needs to be modified, and sooner rather than later if it can be done.

Thank you.

Amalthia
December 7th, 2006, 03:35 PM
Personally I think bringing up such an issue at a con Q&A is wrong, especially if there are children in the audience.

Okay I agreed with your statement about gunning after the wrong person. JF has nothing to do with what finally ends up in the final product. But I think kids need to be aware of the dangers in the world around them. I think by people not talking about this stuff around kids it leaves children in a vulernable postion and they are easily vicitimized. Or they dont' realize it can happen and so they don't speak out if something happens to them. I think teaching kids at an early age that certain acts are crimes gives them a sense of where their boundries are and when someone has crossed them.

Anytime a parent takes their child out in public they are prone to see and hear things the parents may not want them to know, the best solution is to hire a babysitter.

I was sexually molested for a long time before I even learned that there was such a thing as sexual molestation, which is why I feel it's important to educate kids. Parents freak out over sex offenders moving next door, when they feel perfectly okay to let their kids hang out with various family members. Reality is most people are raped or molested by someone they know.

the old briar pipe
December 7th, 2006, 03:35 PM
So it seems like most either liked or hated this ep... I'm more ambivalent myself. The team moments were really priceless: the heroes conversation (with no Teyla moment, how typical), Rodney and Ronon's little interactions all the way up to Ronon slamming the bars while Rodney tried to dig them out with a spoon, and the moment where everyone steps in front of Kolya's gun for Rodney, then Rodney steps out from behind them with an "Oh, um" - these were all priceless. The Lucius moments were mostly irritants, though not as bad as in Irrisistible.

I did like the Genii subplot. I look forward to seeing Haemon in future eps, assuming that's intended.

But really, the production disasters were irredeemable. Guys in Western duds crashing a Dutch village? My brain could not take the dissonance and promptly disconnected. Also, it was sad to see how small Kolya had become. He looked tired and almost yellow.

So in all, I would say this is fodder for the vidders and not much else.

the old briar pipe
December 7th, 2006, 03:41 PM
The allergy thing is shown entirely as a joke, with no darker repercussions, that's why it works. If Rodney had ended up on a respirator or lapsed into a coma or something dire like that after accidentally ingesting some citrus, would it still have been as funny when Cam "threatened" him with a lemon? Probably not. But because it's always treated lightly and because frankly I think we only have Rodney's word that he does have these conditions, he (and they) can get away with it. My opinion, of course.
I agree this has to be the case. My sister has a citrus allergy and, because citrus is so volatile, often cannot be in the same room when someone cuts an orange. However, she has not been particularly restricted in her daily activities. DJ has severe allergies, does he not? But he goes through the gate. If my sister can have people taste food for her, so can Rodney.

I think the fans do a better job of rounding this character element out than the writers on the show do. And who knows? Maybe the allergy was more severe when he was younger and he's mostly grown out of it by now.

RecycledFunk
December 7th, 2006, 03:43 PM
Also, it was sad to see how small Kolya had become. He looked tired and almost yellow.

That's because the cloning didn't go according to plan.

His Supreme Majesty and Ultimate Warrior Kolya(aaa!) is going to have to work on the process if his army of bodyguard decoys will be of any use.

TJuk
December 7th, 2006, 03:43 PM
.... But I think kids need to be aware of the dangers in the world around them. I think by people not talking about this stuff around kids it leaves children in a vulernable postion and they are easily vicitimized. Or they dont' realize it can happen and so they don't speak out if something happens to them. I think teaching kids at an early age that certain acts are crimes gives them a sense of where their boundries are and when someone has crossed them...

I have no problem with this issue being discussed with kids. I've had it my whole life and am very grateful for it because I may have lost the innocence earlier, but I was protected from such things happening to me. However, right time, right place. Thats why we have sex ed in schools (which I personally think should start as early as possible) which is done a in controlled and supportive atmosphere. A child at a con who for all intents and purposes is going to meet their fantasy heroes and have 'fun', no freaking way WRONG environment. Theres exposure from 'talking' which can do more harm then good and theres 'educating'.

Trialia
December 7th, 2006, 03:47 PM
I have no problem with this issue being discussed with kids. I've had it my whole life and am very grateful for it because I may have lost the innocence earlier, but I was protected from such things happening to me. However, right time, right place. Thats why we have sex ed in schools (which I personally think should start as early as possible) which is done a in controlled and supportive atmosphere. A child at a con who for all intents and purposes is going to meet their fantasy heroes and have 'fun', no freaking way WRONG environment. Theres exposure from 'talking' which can do more harm then good and theres 'educating'.
I was still a child when I was molested. Children should not be sheltered so much it puts them in danger. I didn't take the children to the talk, their parents did that, and it follows that as a show that is PG-13 there is going to be swearing and things that maybe a parent doesn't want their child to hear, but it's not my responsibility to censor what I say for fear of offending a parent when there are way more important issues at stake.

TJuk
December 7th, 2006, 03:59 PM
I was still a child when I was molested. Children should not be sheltered so much it puts them in danger. I didn't take the children to the talk, their parents did that, and it follows that as a show that is PG-13 there is going to be swearing and things that maybe a parent doesn't want their child to hear, but it's not my responsibility to censor what I say for fear of offending a parent when there are way more important issues at stake.

Besides having a little respect...not to mention most parents aren't going ot think, 'hhuumm I'm at a fun family scifi and fantasy event, for a 'family' show (ok so its aimed at older children but still nothing is explicit in the show and no strong language is used) maybe I should worry STRONG ADULT themes might get brought up'??? Would most think that??? And more important issues? At the end of the day its a TV show, fantasy, the issues brought up while I can see where you're coming from, are personal interuptations, not intentionally put there by the writers. Yes by fault or ommission they left it a little too open for interputation and opened a can of worms. But still IMO (yes I know you hate that Tralia sorry) wrong place, wrong time and sometimes what we want isn't necessarily the right thing to do. And whether the question was aimed at the actor or not, I still dont think it was fair to ask it in an environment where he COULD be put on the spot about it.

psychofilly
December 7th, 2006, 04:00 PM
The allergy thing is shown entirely as a joke, with no darker repercussions, that's why it works. If Rodney had ended up on a respirator or lapsed into a coma or something dire like that after accidentally ingesting some citrus, would it still have been as funny when Cam "threatened" him with a lemon? Probably not. But because it's always treated lightly and because frankly I think we only have Rodney's word that he does have these conditions, he (and they) can get away with it. My opinion, of course.

I get that, and what Alipeeps said. But that's why I think it would be cool. I also never said it had to be citrus, lol. Personally I think he's exaggerating. I mean I have allergies and I do have reactions, welts and swelling, but nothing that a perscription pill can't control. However I have seen animals go into anaphylaxis and it's dire, but it's also suprisingly quick.

I find it interesting because it would be pretty damn scary. If Rodney had a reaction to something off world (Or even one of his teammates) it, for one, would expose Rodney as the hypocondriac he is when he has no epi-pens or anything, and it would be realistically scary. As for Rodney himself, I always assumed it was an allergy that he outgrew. His fear of the lemon seemed real, but it probably stemmed from a "take no chances" attitude, which I could totally see McKay as having.

You could also have some funny in there, having John applogize about the lemon and Rodney admitting he outgrew the allergy a long time ago.

Anyway, I'm signing off for the evening. You guys have fun.

expendable_crewman
December 7th, 2006, 04:00 PM
Ahhh, there you are. I missed you. :)

Seriously, you have nothing to worry about. Just pretend this episode never happened, and enjoy the rest of the season. There are some much darker themes coming up. (including both my upcoming eps.) lots of gut-wrenching drama, and tons of character development for our leads.

KenYou tease, you. Now I know the reason I've stuck around this thread. Big hug to you.

Alipeeps
December 7th, 2006, 04:03 PM
Besides having a little respect...not to mention most parents aren't going ot think, 'hhuumm I'm at a fun family scifi and fantasy event, for a 'family' show (ok so its aimed at older children but still nothing is explicit in the show and no strong language is used) maybe I should worry STRONG ADULT themes might get brought up'??? Would most think that??? And more important issues? At the end of the day its a TV show, fantasy, the issues brought up while I can see where you're coming from, are personal interuptations, not intentionally put there by the writers. Yes by fault or ommission they left it a little too open for interputation and opened a can of worms. But still IMO (yes I know you hate that Tralia sorry) wrong place, wrong time and sometimes what we want isn't necessarily the right thing to do. And whether the question was aimed at the actor or not, I still dont think it was fair to ask it in an environment where he COULD be put on the spot about it.

That's pretty much my view also.

But we should probably wrap this one up as it's gotten pretty OT for the thread.... :)


You tease, you. Now I know the reason I've stuck around this thread. Big hug to you.

Yeah Ken, come back and tease us some more!! :D

Trialia
December 7th, 2006, 04:05 PM
Besides having a little respect...not to mention most parents aren't going ot think, 'hhuumm I'm at a fun family scifi and fantasy event, for a 'family' show (ok so its aimed at older children but still nothing is explicit in the show and no strong language is used) maybe I should worry STRONG ADULT themes might get brought up'??? Would most think that??? And more important issues? At the end of the day its a TV show, fantasy, the issues brought up while I can see where you're coming from, are personal interuptations, not intentionally put there by the writers. Yes by fault or ommission they left it a little too open for interputation and opened a can of worms. But still IMO (yes I know you hate that Tralia sorry) wrong place, wrong time and sometimes what we want isn't necessarily the right thing to do. And whether the question was aimed at the actor or not, I still dont think it was fair to ask it in an environment where he COULD be put on the spot about it.
Well the show itself is full of violence a great deal of the time, isn't it? Did you think about that? There shouldn't be different standards between violence and sexuality in how parents filter what they want their children to see or hear - they should be on the same level, IMHO, because they can be equally as influential as each other.

I believe asking that question in public WAS "the right thing to do", and I'd never have forgiven myself had I bailed out of it.

Lauriel
December 7th, 2006, 04:07 PM
I was still a child when I was molested. Children should not be sheltered so much it puts them in danger. I didn't take the children to the talk, their parents did that, and it follows that as a show that is PG-13 there is going to be swearing and things that maybe a parent doesn't want their child to hear, but it's not my responsibility to censor what I say for fear of offending a parent when there are way more important issues at stake.

I'm sorry, but you've been saying the whole time that the writers should be responsible for what they present in the show, and consider how their viewers will interpret it, but you don't hold yourself responsible for your own audience when asking questions at a forum? Who is is supposed to? This is a public forum, and this and other mediums, such as newspaper opinions and editorials, letters and emails to the producers of the show, etc, are proper public forums for voicing concerns like that. While you do have the right to ask the guests at a forum, you also have the responsibility to at the very least consider them and the audience. Someone else may have brought their children along, JF has been known to bring his kids along. Others in the audience may feel upset at you "blindsiding" them and bringing up an issue that personally upsets them for the same reasons it does you at an event that is supposed to be fun. I respect your position and I do see where you are coming from in most of your posts, but in the above post you've just said that you're exempt from the very issue you are bringing the writers to task for!

prion
December 7th, 2006, 04:09 PM
Kolya should've tripped with Lucius standing behind him, John's bullet continuing and wounding him fatally. That would've redeemed the episode. And it'd been kinda funny too.

DAMN! Talk about a missed opportunity! Killing two birds with one stone. Darn darn darn... ;)

TJuk
December 7th, 2006, 04:12 PM
That's pretty much my view also.

But we should probably wrap this one up as it's gotten pretty OT for the thread.... :)


Sorry!!! I think you're right...


Yeah Ken, come back and tease us some more!! :D

Yeah, stir the pot alittle KC. Tell us how YOU would resurrect Koyla?? Maybe he was a clone, maybe the real Koyla has been locked in someones basement since CG being forced to play tiddlywinks and sing opera!

ShadowMaat
December 7th, 2006, 04:12 PM
But we should probably wrap this one up as it's gotten pretty OT for the thread.... :)
Yeah right, like anyone's going to magically stop now. Everyone ignored the mod warning(s) many pages back (myself included, alas) and with someone from the show contributing to the continued OT direction of the thread, well, there isn't much the mods can do about that, is there? At least, I assume Ken has been properly verified even though there's no identifying tag under his name. I think this whole thread would have been killed/redirected a lot earlier if Ken had just been a random user with delusions of grandeur. :P

Amalthia
December 7th, 2006, 04:12 PM
Besides having a little respect...not to mention most parents aren't going ot think, 'hhuumm I'm at a fun family scifi and fantasy event, for a 'family' show (ok so its aimed at older children but still nothing is explicit in the show and no strong language is used) maybe I should worry STRONG ADULT themes might get brought up'??? Would most think that??? And more important issues? .

Just because there is no graphic sex or foul language in the show does not make it kid friendly. They show people getting the life sucked out of them by an alien! and then there's the torture, a guy admitting to raping 6 women no less! and the violence and the shooting people. For children, this is some scary stuff....When people take their kids to conventions I figured it's because they spent all their money on admission tickets they couldn't afford to pay a babysitter. I do not think cons are a place to bring children! Have you ever even been to one? The costumes people wear are sometimes rather racy and there are a lot of strangers and it's easy to lose track of people at them.

People who bring their children to cons should not complain when they hear stuff they didn't want them to hear just yet.

the old briar pipe
December 7th, 2006, 04:13 PM
Ali-- yes, I don't think Rodney's allergies are portrayed especially well either, tbh. I have to avoid all sorts of stuff, there's no way he would be able to eat something offworld without checking with the cook for citrus first, and what if they don't understand what citrus is?

That's why he totally needs a personal taster. I can detect citrus at twenty paces now, I think ^_^.

It's cute to think of other members of the team as doing that for him.

Trialia
December 7th, 2006, 04:14 PM
I'm sorry, but you've been saying the whole time that the writers should be responsible for what they present in the show, and consider how their viewers will interpret it, but you don't hold yourself responsible for your own audience when asking questions at a forum? Who is is supposed to? This is a public forum, and this and other mediums, such as newspaper opinions and editorials, letters and emails to the producers of the show, etc, are proper public forums for voicing concerns like that. While you do have the right to ask the guests at a forum, you also have the responsibility to at the very least consider them and the audience. Someone else may have brought their children along, JF has been known to bring his kids along. Others in the audience may feel upset at you "blindsiding" them and bringing up an issue that personally upsets them for the same reasons it does you at an event that is supposed to be fun. I respect your position and I do see where you are coming from in most of your posts, but in the above post you've just said that you're exempt from the very issue you are bringing the writers to task for!
Did I? I didn't intend to.

What I meant, and I am being a bit vague tonight I'm afraid - playdoh neck - was that Stargate has always had some level of violence, and violence and sexuality should be treated with the same care and/or filters as each other. Parents expect a level of talk about violence and some swearing in this show, so why would the talk be different than that? I don't think violent comedy is funny most of the time, and I don't think sexual assault should be featured in a comedy episode if it's not dealt with right, as it wasn't here.

I was talking in front of a public forum of a few hundred people - not in front of millions like where this show is aired. There is in fact a difference. I didn't phrase the question quite how I wanted to because I was too.. what's the word I want? I was shaking from head to foot, anyway.

I think I should probably get off this thread for tonight, before I manage to screw up what I'm trying to say even more than I have since that medication accident. My head's pretty screwed up right at this precise minute, I keep missing words out of sentences and that's not something I normally do. Not an excuse I know, but I should really get out for the night. It's midnight anyway, and I'm going to the doctor first thing in the morning - I've been pretty much ordered to after what just happened.

Night, all.

TJuk
December 7th, 2006, 04:15 PM
I'm sorry, but you've been saying the whole time that the writers should be responsible for what they present in the show, and consider how their viewers will interpret it, but you don't hold yourself responsible for your own audience when asking questions at a forum? Who is is supposed to? This is a public forum, and this and other mediums, such as newspaper opinions and editorials, letters and emails to the producers of the show, etc, are proper public forums for voicing concerns like that. While you do have the right to ask the guests at a forum, you also have the responsibility to at the very least consider them and the audience. Someone else may have brought their children along, JF has been known to bring his kids along. Others in the audience may feel upset at you "blindsiding" them and bringing up an issue that personally upsets them for the same reasons it does you at an event that is supposed to be fun. I respect your position and I do see where you are coming from in most of your posts, but in the above post you've just said that you're exempt from the very issue you are bringing the writers to task for!

Sorry Alipeeps....but THANK YOU Lauriel for putting it so much better then I ever could. I completely agree...

Alipeeps
December 7th, 2006, 04:16 PM
Yeah right, like anyone's going to magically stop now. Everyone ignored the mod warning(s) many pages back (myself included, alas) and with someone from the show contributing to the continued OT direction of the thread, well, there isn't much the mods can do about that, is there? At least, I assume Ken has been properly verified even though there's no identifying tag under his name. I think this whole thread would have been killed/redirected a lot earlier if Ken had just been a random user with delusions of grandeur. :P

Sorry, I was referring specifically to the discussion of the Manchester con - which I don't think Ken has contributed to...


Yeah, stir the pot alittle KC. Tell us how YOU would resurrect Koyla?? Maybe he was a clone, maybe the real Koyla has been locked in someones basement since CG being forced to play tiddlywinks and sing opera!

I'm so intruiged to know what Ken's idea for bringing back Kolya was... c'mon Ken.. please tell us? Even if it's as wacky and out there as you seem to think, I'd still love to hear it! :D

the old briar pipe
December 7th, 2006, 04:17 PM
That's because the cloning didn't go according to plan.

His Supreme Majesty and Ultimate Warrior Kolya(aaa!) is going to have to work on the process if his army of bodyguard decoys will be of any use.

Omg. *snorts* Having flashbacks to TPM now.

But... I'd kind of like to believe this. *shakes head*

TJuk
December 7th, 2006, 04:19 PM
Did I? I didn't intend to.

What I meant, and I am being a bit vague tonight I'm afraid - playdoh neck - was that Stargate has always had some level of violence, and violence and sexuality should be treated with the same care and/or filters as each other. Parents expect a level of talk about violence and some swearing in this show, so why would the talk be different than that? I don't think violent comedy is funny most of the time, and I don't think sexual assault should be featured in a comedy episode if it's not dealt with right, as it wasn't here.

I was talking in front of a public forum of a few hundred people - not in front of millions like where this show is aired. There is in fact a difference. I didn't phrase the question quite how I wanted to because I was too.. what's the word I want? I was shaking from head to foot, anyway.

I think I should probably get off this thread for tonight, before I manage to screw up what I'm trying to say even more than I have since that medication accident. My head's pretty screwed up right at this precise minute, I keep missing words out of sentences and that's not something I normally do. Not an excuse I know, but I should really get out for the night. It's midnight anyway, and I'm going to the doctor first thing in the morning - I've been pretty much ordered to after what just happened.

Night, all.

Yes, but the violence in the show is at a controlled level appropiate for its air slot and demographic (which is PG-13 not R or M). Parents are therefore aware of the content BEFORE their child has a chance to see/hear it and can choose to turn the TV off. They had NO warning for what subject you would bring up and cant turn you off now can they? Plus cons are family events, irregardless of the age bracket of the show, you should have taken that into account, respected that fact and choose a more appropriate forum for which to publically air your concerns.

OOps...sorry...OT OT I know I know... my bad...shutting up...:p

Willow'sCat
December 7th, 2006, 04:21 PM
So it seems like most either liked or hated this ep... Well I never said I hated it, I was just bored by it, and didn't find the funny the way others may have, or more to the point the way M&M wanted us to find the funny. *shrugs* I just hope I don't get use to this kind of mediocrity. :cool:

So in all, I would say this is fodder for the vidders and not much else.Now see, my thoughts exactly... I did hate The Tower but that made for some interesting vids. The gun slinging here no doubt will feature in a lot of vids to come. ;)

ShadowMaat
December 7th, 2006, 04:22 PM
Sorry, I was referring specifically to the discussion of the Manchester con - which I don't think Ken has contributed to...
So I guess some OT is allowed then as long as it relates to KC, who as far as I can tell not only didn't have anything to do with the Manchester con but also wasn't involved in Irresponsible or Irresistible. :P

Maybe Ken should be encouraged to start his own thread. Makes it easier on everyone, particularly the mods. Folks can still talk about Lucius all they want but they'd be able to talk about everything else, too, without dragging this poor maligned thread continuously off topic. It'll also make it easier for random other people to find him. Assuming he wants to be found. :D

Alipeeps
December 7th, 2006, 04:25 PM
So I guess some OT is allowed then as long as it relates to KC, who as far as I can tell not only didn't have anything to do with the Manchester con but also wasn't involved in Irresponsible or Irresistible. :P

Maybe Ken should be encouraged to start his own thread. Makes it easier on everyone, particularly the mods. Folks can still talk about Lucius all they want but they'd be able to talk about everything else, too, without dragging this poor maligned thread continuously off topic. It'll also make it easier for random other people to find him. Assuming he wants to be found. :D

None of us were involved in the eps being discussed either - however, here we are discussing it. And so is Ken - giving his thoughts on the ep both as a writer and from a personal perspective, together with some interesting behind the scenes insight. How is that taking the thread off-topic?

the old briar pipe
December 7th, 2006, 04:28 PM
Well I never said I hated it, I was just bored by it, and didn't find the funny the way others may have, or more to the point the way M&M wanted us to find the funny. *shrugs* I just hope I don't get use to this kind of mediocrity. :cool:

I agree with you 100% on this. There were some brilliant character moments, but SGA has proven itself capable of having brilliant character moments in the midst of something shiny. You know, like Sateda.


Now see, my thoughts exactly... I did hate The Tower but that made for some interesting vids. The gun slinging here no doubt will feature in a lot of vids to come. ;)

Yeah, Derry's Austin Powers vid was priceless. Made me look back at "The Tower" and go, "Hey, that wasn't as bad as I thought it was." Then I rewatched it and discovered I was wrong. Derry's just that good.

Hopefully someone will come along and do that for "Irresponsible" as well.

expendable_crewman
December 7th, 2006, 04:30 PM
... Teyla's worth has been ignored for the most part, which is one reason why she is so disliked in fandom.In what corner of fandom are you playing? Please don't speak for mine.

Trialia
December 7th, 2006, 04:34 PM
In what corner of fandom are you playing? Please don't speak for mine.

Or mine in this case - my last comment before going to bed - I love Teyla. Just because I love Elizabeth more doesn't mean I'm not a Teyla fan. But I do agree that she has been underappreciated and underutilised as a character.

Goodnight!

ShadowMaat
December 7th, 2006, 04:34 PM
How is that taking the thread off-topic?

Because there was no rape-like situation in Irresponsible and a majority of the discussion is about that... which happened in Irresistible. Maybe the discussion could be moved into that thread instead if Ken doesn't want an entire thread of his own (which can be daunting).

the old briar pipe
December 7th, 2006, 04:37 PM
I love Teyla. Just because I love Elizabeth more doesn't mean I'm not a Teyla fan.

Teyla is teh awesome. It is just so sad that she rarely gets real lines. Notice how in Irresponsible (omg, I found a way to put this back OT!), everyone gets to talk about their heroes except her. Do women not have heroes? How silly.

I am so looking forward to any ep where Teyla gets complication and screentime. Rachel deserves something better to work with.

Alipeeps
December 7th, 2006, 04:41 PM
Because there was no rape-like situation in Irresponsible and a majority of the discussion is about that... which happened in Irresistible. Maybe the discussion could be moved into that thread instead if Ken doesn't want an entire thread of his own (which can be daunting).

Ah. I get ya. Unfortunately I don't think it's possible to separate out the rape discussion from the discussion of Irresponsible because it seems a lot of posters (and let me pre-emptively reiterate here that I am in no way attempting to assume to know anyone's opinion or to speak for them - just giving my own thoughts on what I perceive to be something of a common theme in opinions posted) who don't like the episode feel that way at least partly because of their dislike of the character.. and that at least some of that dislike stems directly from his behaviour in Irresistible.

Jeeez, the grammar in that sentence was horrible, wasn't it? :lol:

Luz
December 7th, 2006, 04:48 PM
Yes, but the violence in the show is at a controlled level appropiate for its air slot and demographic (which is PG-13 not R or M). Parents are therefore aware of the content BEFORE their child has a chance to see/hear it and can choose to turn the TV off. They had NO warning for what subject you would bring up and cant turn you off now can they? Plus cons are family events, irregardless of the age bracket of the show, you should have taken that into account, respected that fact and choose a more appropriate forum for which to publically air your concerns.

OOps...sorry...OT OT I know I know... my bad...shutting up...:p

I don't see a problem with addressing people involved on the show about the rape issue, as fans we have limited chances to have any sort of contact with producers, writers, or actors, so we have to make do with what we've got.
I wouldn't have had a problem with rape being written on the show had it been made absolutely clear that yes! it was rape, now we know that the writers never even considered that someone might feel insulted by their using rape as a source for comedy.
Had it been treated for what it was instead of allowing Lucius to get away with it, instead of trying to make it look like it was supposed to be fun, instead of having people cracking jokes about "lingering desires" I don't think some of us would have taken it so badly.
As long as it is addressed with the seriousness that it warrants I have no problems with someone asking anyone involved on the show about it.
And I think it would be more damaging for a kid to sit down and watch Irresistible than seeing someone asking about why wasn't the subject matter treated in a less disrespectful manner.

prion
December 7th, 2006, 04:55 PM
Personally I think bringing up such an issue at a con Q&A is wrong, especially if there are children in the audience. I respect your want...even need because of strong feelings to bring it up in public. But at the end of the day SGA is (supposed to be) a family show. I'm not a mother, but having such abuse in the family I know its an issue I would NOT want discussed in front of my child by strangers. Besides being a 'personally interupted aspect of the show' did you stop to think of the effect such discussions would have on others? Not to mention Joe is an ACTOR, he portrays what he gets paid for, he has no real say over the writing and is told by the director how to interupt the script within reason. Asking NJS far does, he's a producer, he gets paid to take the heat. But asking JF, I personally find that incredibly unfair. Plus YOU may be happy to shout about it in public but there may have been others in the audience who have also suffered such abuse who may have been upset by it. its not a taboo subject, its just a very sensitive one that should be dealt with with sensitivity and respect. One of the reasons people seem so pissed by Iressistable is it not?

I've totally missed what shouldnt' be asked at cons, but 'inappropriate' questions do get asked (although don't recall any at the NJ con, just some really, er, weird ones). Anyway, if the topic is presented on the show, it is fair game to ask about it, but.... unless the actor wrote the episode, they won't remember (heck, half of them probably havent' even seen the episodes).

but back to the episode.... I wouldn't mind asking the writers why they felt it necessary to retread "Good to be a King"... ;)

prion
December 7th, 2006, 04:59 PM
Ah. I get ya. Unfortunately I don't think it's possible to separate out the rape discussion from the discussion of Irresponsible because it seems a lot of posters (and let me pre-emptively reiterate here that I am in no way attempting to assume to know anyone's opinion or to speak for them - just giving my own thoughts on what I perceive to be something of a common theme in opinions posted) who don't like the episode feel that way at least partly because of their dislike of the character.. and that at least some of that dislike stems directly from his behaviour in Irresistible.

Jeeez, the grammar in that sentence was horrible, wasn't it? :lol:

Nah, I've seen worse ;)

My feeling is that the rape discussion stems from the fact that Lucius' behavior in "Irresistable" was deplorable, and that some fans are at a loss as to why this character would be brought back with absolutely no sign of him having been punished.

What probably would have taken care of a ton of this discussion is for Lucius to have made a remark like "I just escaped before they skinned me alive," or something like that, to show that the townsfolk were livid at what he'd done to them. Ah, those little lines can do so much to script development ;)

HyperCaz
December 7th, 2006, 05:03 PM
Also, it was sad to see how small Kolya had become. He looked tired and almost yellow.

So in all, I would say this is fodder for the vidders and not much else.

Yeah I was a bit disappointed with Kolya's appearance, not to mention he'd become more chubby. Life as a bad guy is hard, I suppose. :D

as to the vid comment, totally agree :D the sheyla and carson/teyla shippers will not doubt be using that episode and who knows - someone might make a Lucius vid (hahah not sure if I'd watch it). Irresponsible helped me add to my collection for

my eventual Carson tribute.

Luz
December 7th, 2006, 05:08 PM
Yeah I was a bit disappointed with Kolya's appearance, not to mention he'd become more chubby. Life as a bad guy is hard, I suppose. :D

as to the vid comment, totally agree :D the sheyla and carson/teyla shippers will not doubt be using that episode and who knows - someone might make a Lucius vid (hahah not sure if I'd watch it). Irresponsible helped me add to my collection for

my eventual Carson tribute.

Pity they couldn't make a visually attractive episode with a good plot included in it, Echoes was great for Ronon/Teyla and Sheppard/Weir videos, but when actually watching the episode it had a purpose, what's more, it was actually watchable, and not only watchable but a great episode, instead of being only a craptacular waste of time like Irresponsible.

ETA: But what am I saying?!, to me it wasn't visually attractive either, sure, Sheppard looked pretty, he always does, aside from that nothing remarkable in that department.

the old briar pipe
December 7th, 2006, 05:20 PM
Yeah I was a bit disappointed with Kolya's appearance, not to mention he'd become more chubby. Life as a bad guy is hard, I suppose. :D

lol. And here I was blaming it on the costuming department and, possibly, lighting. All becomes clear! ^_^


as to the vid comment, totally agree :D the sheyla and carson/teyla shippers will not doubt be using that episode and who knows - someone might make a Lucius vid (hahah not sure if I'd watch it). Irresponsible helped me add to my collection for

my eventual Carson tribute.

Oh. This I have to see, esp. after your McWeir piece. But I think it's sad that you'll have to make one.

Any particular reason for the Carson/Teyla shippers in this one? I saw as much Ronon/Rodney cuteness as that, but I don't think it would vid well, even if I wish otherwise.

HyperCaz
December 7th, 2006, 05:24 PM
Check the last two seconds of the episode for Carson/Teyla. :D

the old briar pipe
December 7th, 2006, 05:27 PM
Echoes was great for Ronon/Teyla and Sheppard/Weir videos, but when actually watching the episode it had a purpose

Oh, yes. Also with the cute Sheppard/McKay, but the Ronon/Teyla was true shiny gold. There were smiles on Teyla the world had never seen before. There was actual vulnerability in Ronon. *luv*

But yes. "Echoes" could have been silly, and there were places where it was, but it flowed and contained so much love. To follow that up with "Irresponsible", well. Sad. *hangs head*

Luz
December 7th, 2006, 05:31 PM
Oh, yes. Also with the cute Sheppard/McKay, but the Ronon/Teyla was true shiny gold. There were smiles on Teyla the world had never seen before. There was actual vulnerability in Ronon. *luv*

But yes. "Echoes" could have been silly, and there were places where it was, but it flowed and contained so much love. To follow that up with "Irresponsible", well. Sad. *hangs head*

Sheppard/McKay how could I forget that? (I must watch it again), the infirmary, Celine Dion, *lol* the boys being boys. Yeah, a real pity to have something so good followed by this. :(

the old briar pipe
December 7th, 2006, 05:36 PM
Check the last two seconds of the episode for Carson/Teyla. :D

Omg, I totally missed that. Also, you made me go back and watch that ep! Even if only the last thirty seconds. *mockglare*

Well, there's another one for the vidders to overuse. :p

the old briar pipe
December 7th, 2006, 05:43 PM
Sheppard/McKay how could I forget that? (I must watch it again), the infirmary, Celine Dion, *lol* the boys being boys. Yeah, a real pity to have something so good followed by this. :(

YES! And military handsignals and Ancient etch-a-sketches, and, and!

The only good arcs I saw in "Irresponsible" were everyone's protectiveness of Rodney and Teyla+Carson's willingness to stand up to the 'shoot first' mentality that Shep and Ronon advocate. Not that I didn't find Ronon's "I don't have a problem with that, by the way," to be hilarious. It just wasn't enough.

Is it just me, or did even Carson's very moving, very heroic speech in the jail seem a little ooc?

A.L.
December 7th, 2006, 05:51 PM
Okay, so while this episode wasn't as good as ones like Echoes. It wasn't all that bad either. It was still better than Irresistable.

1. Not happy that Lizzie was only in the very beginning for a few minutes but I can accept that not every story has time to show everyone in a 43 minute show.
2. I was disappointed that Koyla died so easily, so anti-climacticly given who he was and what he's been in the show but at least it came down to Koyla and Sheppard, as it most definitely should have. Had anyone else been the one to kill him I would have been VERY disappointed.
3. And on a shipper note Teyla tried to take the place of Ronon when Koyla got ready to kill Rodney. True, Ronon stepped in front of Rodney and Carson in front of Teyla but well . . . I look for what I like and that's Spanky and Sparky. ;)
4. And I know some other shippers would have preferred differently but given the history, it's more plausible that Koyla would choose Rodney to kill first.

So, it could have been better. We know the show and it's people are capable but it wasn't as bad as it was made out to be. At least to me. Then again, maybe I think that because I went in with little expectations. Whatever the reason, I give this episode a passable. I'd watch it again if only for a few choice moments. ;)

AL

PG15
December 7th, 2006, 07:02 PM
Whew, that was a long read (didn't read the whole thread, only the last 12 pages...which magically appeared between last night and now).

Very interesting stuff...IN MY OPINION. Some, not all, are taking the show just a tiny, teeny bit too seriously. They'll disagree I'm sure, but that's what I think. Which, I'm sure, is allowed.

Right? ;)

Lord Iceman
December 7th, 2006, 07:29 PM
Wow! Over 30 pages *mod snip* in less than a work week. that is amazing.

I seem to agree with the minority here. Most of the people here need to get over hating this episode before the season ends. It wasn't that bad of an episode.

It certainly wasn't the worst. I think the worst was the Rodney under water in the broken puddle-jumper. The second worst was last week's (Star Trek 4 episode).

But you won't see me whine and complain all week and attack the show, becasue I made something out of nothing (see your responses to irresistable)

Another quick hits on the matter.

As long as she isn't singing, I like Teyla, but not enough to miss her.

The Tower was a GOOD episode. Any time you see ancient stuff is okay with me.

Koyla was overated and should have died in the Storm. I would have killed him then.

Everyone should stop insulting the writers, stop watching, or create your own show and leave these poor people alone. Its people like you that sent Mr. Mallozzi packing. Grow up and take what they give you.

An-Alteran
December 7th, 2006, 07:32 PM
Funny you should mention that... I did pitch one already. BUt it didn't fly. And rightfully so...it was crap. I just wanted Kolya back, but my story was pretty out there... (the less said about it the better, quite frankly) So you never know... If the right pitch comes along...

Needless to say, I ended up writing Submersion instead, a Teyla story which I originally pitched as a follow up to the Gift -- but which morphed away from that a bit along the way.

Ken
Sounds intrigueing.:)
I say: Ancient technology and ships being discovered and kept (not drained, destroyed, or lost) is the real fanpleaser.:P

This show is Stargate: Atlantis!
The city of the Ancients... we like the Ancients, and their tech.:)
We like ship battles and explossions.:)
And the good guys winning with a cool ship that is actually BETTER then the enemies.:P

I am reposting this do to no response.

I am so not the guy to be answering technical questions. I can't even get my toaster to brown both sides of the bread equally.Who would be? About why the Drone in Return I mean.

By the way, I actually thought Irresponsible was pretty good, deffinately not the bomb everyone else was saying it was.
I certainly like gritty episodes better, but this was certainly good.:)

Also: Who's idea whas it to destroy the Orion?
I maen seriously:
We find Aurora, it gets blown up.
We find Orion, It gets blown up.
We get a Hive ship, it gets blown up.
What is the deal?:P

I think all the fans would love it if we found a good Ancient ship that WORKED and above all SURVIVED!:cameron:

Glad that you are on the forum BTW.:)


Obviously offending and hurting people - by creating a fictional character who does fictional things - never crossed our minds.

I don't think it was a black comedy "gone wrong." I think it was the very definition of black comedy. Some were offended by it, and I respect that -- but it was a story choice and we made it - and we stand by it.

I've never tried to defend it -- only give an alternate side to the argument. I personally think Lucious is pretty dispicable -- which is how I like my villains.
Ok, frankly, I was laughing uncontrollably throughout most of Irresistable.:P
The rape stuff didn't cross my mind until I saw it on the forums.

That aside:

The best two lines in the Movie:
"Fly Lucius, Fly!"
And when in the Puddle Jumper,
Beckett starts bawling: "Lucius! He needs me!"

Please oh PLEASE tell me who came up with these?!:p
They were a genius!:P

ToasterOnFire
December 7th, 2006, 07:50 PM
Grow up and take what they give you.
Um...what? Are you suggesting that those that have problems with an episode or the overall trend of the series shouldn't discuss those problems? Should they magically turn into fans who love everything and anything about Atlantis? And are you arguing that those post critiques are somehow less mature than those that don't? Because come on... :rolleyes:

Lord Iceman
December 7th, 2006, 07:55 PM
Um...what? Are you suggesting that those that have problems with an episode or the overall trend of the series shouldn't discuss those problems? Should they magically turn into fans who love everything and anything about Atlantis? And are you arguing that those post critiques are somehow less mature than those that don't? Because come on... :rolleyes:

No, just saying that whining never did anyone any good. I enjoy when some of the wirters come on hear and give their take, but when 90% of their so called fans attack them, they leave. I don't care what you think about me or the show, just don't bash the supposed basis for you passions (the writers of the show you watch). If you could do better, I am sure you already would have.

HyperCaz
December 7th, 2006, 08:01 PM
Is it just me, or did even Carson's very moving, very heroic speech in the jail seem a little ooc?

Yeah but it was hot... :D

Lauriel
December 7th, 2006, 08:02 PM
No, just saying that whining never did anyone any good. I enjoy when some of the wirters come on hear and give their take, but when 90% of their so called fans attack them, they leave. I don't care what you think about me or the show, just don't bash the supposed basis for you passions (the writers of the show you watch). If you could do better, I am sure you already would have.
While I agree that attacking the writers is a bit too zealous, we're certainly allowed to express an opinion that one or another episode is badly written. If the fans don't discuss the show in a forum designed for that purpose, what other feedback do the writers have? Yes, they have ratings - but not everyone in here has a Neilson box or whatever in their house. The writers have made it publicly known that they read these ep threads for that very purpose - viewer feedback. They do actually take our opinions into account - see the changes made in s3 compared to s2. If you don't share the same opinion of a show, that's fine, but everyone else is entitled to express their's too. It is not just whining. A large amount of viewers were dissatisfied with this ep (and Irrisitable) for a variety of reasons, and all those reasons have been expressed (vocally:p ). Equally, they will listen, and I'm sure they'll get a warm fuzzy feeling, when you voice your support of the ep.

travis
December 7th, 2006, 08:15 PM
LOL, how funny and ironic that this ep which seems to be the fans least favorite is having such a high count in discussion.

jonno
December 7th, 2006, 08:20 PM
No, just saying that whining never did anyone any good. I enjoy when some of the wirters come on hear and give their take, but when 90% of their so called fans attack them, they leave. I don't care what you think about me or the show, just don't bash the supposed basis for you passions (the writers of the show you watch). If you could do better, I am sure you already would have.

But ... what if in our opinion the writing is the part that let the episode down?

Yes - the bashing in this thread, (and Joe's blog when that existed) can at times get too overzealous - Joe's blog in particular was a shameful discrase. You will get more bashing when TPTB come and play with us, because people see it is a link to the production process for the future - if they get their grievences to the top, then something might get done about them. So long as people don't abuse the writer in question against the forum rules, then all the posts are valid - and if the writer can't take critisism and leaves, whilst sad for us, it's more his or her problem than ours. Remember - they are supposed to be writing stuff we want to watch and buy - we're their customers, which kind of gives us the power. If we don't watch anymore, they're back to job shop. If we think the writing of a particular episode is below what we expect, we're perfectly entitled to bring our grievences to a member of the team that created it, should they happen to come and play. That of course, does not mean we can criticise them personally, or insult them - because that sort of thing is against the forum rules.

Overall - i appreciate when TPTB come to see what we thought and interact - it shows they like knowing what their customers think. But that doesn't mean they should be sanitised from the negative and valid opinions. In fact those negative opinions may well be the most useful to them.

smushybird
December 7th, 2006, 08:38 PM
Ooh, I'd really like to see the "boys" have to suit up in native dress somewhere. Oh yeah, the entire team in leather or spiffy suits might just start an ovary earthquake. Cliche's are there for a reason, and playing dressup is one I wouldn't mind seeing.

I vote for that, too. The spiffy suits, especially. Nothing sexier than a guy in a spiffy suit (Yeah, I know what you're thinking, Willow... ;)). The guys would all look good in the three-piece kind...and hats!...Sheppard in a fedora. Yum.

Or Ronon Dex in a stiff collar and a bowler. :D That'd be funnier than anything Lucius could dream up.

RecycledFunk
December 7th, 2006, 09:01 PM
Its people like you that sent Mr. Mallozzi packing.

Uhh....

Wha?

The very fact that there's "30 pages of crap" here proves that the writers' (or producers') jobs are nowhere near jeopardy.

If people care enough to be this upset about something as trivial (let's be honest) as a television show, then I think the writers--and Mr. Mallozzi--are perfectly safe from we nasty, ungrateful, spiteful, but still devastatingly good-looking fans.

PG15
December 7th, 2006, 09:07 PM
Mallozzi ain't fired. By "packing", I guess he meant that "these fans" sent him off of the forum. He was posting here a few months ago.

I disagree with that, however.

RecycledFunk
December 7th, 2006, 09:12 PM
Mallozzi ain't fired. By "packing", I guess he meant that "these fans" sent him off of the forum. He was posting here a few months ago.



Ah!

Dang, I've been lurking waaaaay too long.

Nolamom
December 7th, 2006, 09:39 PM
Okay, just watched Irresponsible with a critical and hopefully not too prejudicial eye. Still cannot stand Lucius. Smarmy character to the core. Koyla's "resolution" with Shep should have been in a stand-alone episode IMO. However, the episode was not as bad as Irresistible by a long shot. I hated the whole premise of that one. As mentioned much earlier in this thread, a few extra lines would have made much "amends" - i.e. Lucius saying that he'd barely escaped from the previous situation with his skin - would have indicated some "punishment" for his prior actions. At least in this case we got to hear him "ow!" as he was kicked in the shin.

PG15
December 7th, 2006, 10:00 PM
At least in this case we got to hear him "ow!" as he was kicked in the shin.

I think he was actually kicked in the balls (since we saw that earlier with the kid).

At least, it might help if everyone who hated the episode thought that. :D

Madeleine
December 7th, 2006, 10:19 PM
Wow! Over 30 pages of crap in less than a work week. that is amazing.

I seem to agree with the minority here. Most of the people here need to get over hating this episode before the season ends. It wasn't that bad of an episode.

Everyone should stop insulting the writers, stop watching, or create your own show and leave these poor people alone. Its people like you that sent Mr. Mallozzi packing. Grow up and take what they give you.

This sort of attitude is not welcome here. GateWorld does not operate a "please only analyse an episode if you like it" policy. Nor does it operate a "please only post negative things if the thread is mostly positive" policy.

The result is that every now and again, a thread will have a lot of criticism in it. Anyone who can't cope with that (lurkers, members, whoever) is free to leave. But NOT to tell people how they can think or how they can post. And CERTAINLY not to tell people to grow up. That's rude and uncalled for.

If you want to read a nice positive enthusiastic thread, there's plenty around in the Episodes sections. Some are peopled by the same posters who are complaining and criticising here.



Madeleine
GateWorld Moderator

Mitchell82
December 7th, 2006, 11:41 PM
Man I am wondering what this forum is turning into. I'm glad I'm seeing meore positive repsonses than yesterday, however alot of you are really being way to hard on M&M. I truly beleieve they have done great work and while this isnt ranked as best ep ever it certaintly is not as bad as you are makeing it. It certaintly is not the begining of the end. I fail to see why soeme think this ep is crap. I truly found it very enteretaining.

FallenAngelII
December 8th, 2006, 02:13 AM
BSG did the rape thing 100% better than Irresistable. I don't really consider it that controversial. but having the two main male leads fall in love and be in a relationships that involves sex. Oh yeah, that will never NEVER happen in a MILLION years on a show like this. they may flirt with some darker issues but that's it.
Please tell me that they didn't fall in love with each other (otherwise I'll scour the Net 'til I find that episode).

bluealien
December 8th, 2006, 02:25 AM
Please don't let "The Others" take a good story away from you to be revised by committee. "The Gift" should have had a follow-up later that same season, but Teyla's worth has been ignored for the most part, which is one reason why she is so disliked in fandom. The poor girl has little personality, and what she does show from time to time is quickly discarded in favor of scenes showcasing her belly-baring tank tops that are three sizes too small for her.

It would be wonderful to have a GOOD Teyla episode. Not another "Mary Sue" like "Phantoms", but something where we learn more about her as a person. It would be even better to have a Teyla episode without Sheppard or McKay, who always end up the focus of the episode 99% of the time. Who knows, if I knew Teyla better, I might even start liking her. :)


Since when has Teyla been disliked in Fandom - please don't make wild statements just because you don't like the character. There have been wonderful Teyla moments and IMO she has as many wonderful scenes as Weir or Ronan in Season three. Having less screentime does not equate to not being liked. So please don't turn this thread now into bashing Teyla and do not make statements of behalf of the Fandom.

FallenAngelII
December 8th, 2006, 02:31 AM
Since when has Teyla been disliked in Fandom - please don't make wild statements just because you don't like the character. There have been wonderful Teyla moments and IMO she has as many wonderful scenes as Weir or Ronan in Season three. Having less screentime does not equate to not being liked. So please don't turn this thread now into bashing Teyla and do not make statements of behalf of the Fandom.
For the latter part of season 2 and better part of the 1st part of season 3, Teyla was just there. She didn't really do or say much besides running, saying a few (and I do mean "few") lines and then fighting alongside her comrades.

bluealien
December 8th, 2006, 02:58 AM
For the latter part of season 2 and better part of the 1st part of season 3, Teyla was just there. She didn't really do or say much besides running, saying a few (and I do mean "few") lines and then fighting alongside her comrades.


As I said a character does not have to have a lot of screentime to be liked or for her character to be appreciated. IMO Teyla was much more that just being there. She contributed as much with the screentime she had than the other characters. Ronan has just as little screentime and I have enjoyed him as much .

Weir hasn't had a lot of screentime in season three either except for TRW and that just proves to me again that giving a character a lot of screentime doesn't equate to a good ep or making the character more popular. TRW was one of the least liked eps of the season.

Sheppard's Delight
December 8th, 2006, 03:03 AM
As I said a character does not have to have a lot of screentime to be liked or for her character to be appreciated. IMO Teyla was much more that just being there. She contributed as much with the screentime she had than the other characters. Ronan has just as little screentime and I have enjoyed him as much .

Weir hasn't had a lot of screentime in season three either except for TRW and that just proves to me again that giving a character a lot of screentime doesn't equate to a good ep or making the character more popular. TRW was one of the least liked eps of the season.

I agree the amount of screentime that a character gets does not equate to popularity.

Oh I really like Teyla a lot - although I still think that she has been neglected a little in the first part of S3 and in my opinion that is a shame as I would like to see more of her......but that doesnt alter my opinion of her at all and I am glad to say that in Echoes she had a much bigger part and that looks to be continuing for the rest of the season....especially in Submersion:)

I also think she play an important part in The Ark...another Ken ep!

FallenAngelII
December 8th, 2006, 03:14 AM
As I said a character does not have to have a lot of screentime to be liked or for her character to be appreciated. IMO Teyla was much more that just being there. She contributed as much with the screentime she had than the other characters. Ronan has just as little screentime and I have enjoyed him as much .

Weir hasn't had a lot of screentime in season three either except for TRW and that just proves to me again that giving a character a lot of screentime doesn't equate to a good ep or making the character more popular. TRW was one of the least liked eps of the season.
I'm sorry, since when is TRW one of the least liked episodes of the season?

FallenAngelII
December 8th, 2006, 04:20 AM
Children this, children that. No kid who's too young to understand the concept of sex should be watching Stargate Atlantis where people are mumified alive by having their life force sucked out of them.

prion
December 8th, 2006, 04:52 AM
I think he was actually kicked in the balls (since we saw that earlier with the kid).

At least, it might help if everyone who hated the episode thought that. :D

Nope, it was definitely the shins. He said "ow!" Had lucius been kicked in the nether regions, he would have a LOT louder reaction! ;)

prion
December 8th, 2006, 04:54 AM
Children this, children that. No kid who's too young to understand the concept of sex should be watching Stargate Atlantis where people are mumified alive by having their life force sucked out of them.


Quite honestly, the SG shows are less damaging to a child than say "Two and a Half Men" on CBS, a sitcom which is so rife with sexual innuendo it's pretty bad. In fact, most sitcoms these days rely on that kind of raunchy humor. I miss the days of Gilligan's Island....

bluealien
December 8th, 2006, 04:58 AM
Children this, children that. No kid who's too young to understand the concept of sex should be watching Stargate Atlantis where people are mumified alive by having their life force sucked out of them.



Some folks just bring along their kids to conventions because they don't have babysitters to watch them at home - it doesn't mean that these kids actually watch the show or should have to participate in a topic of sexual molestation. At least at home their parents can prevent them from watching if they feel its inapproptiate - whatever the topic, sex or violence. Didn't get that opportunity at the con.

Ronnikins
December 8th, 2006, 05:06 AM
I'm sorry, since when is TRW one of the least liked episodes of the season?

Personally, TRW was one of my favourite episodes this season. It added a layer of complexity to Weir's character that may have been perceived as lacking in the previous seasons. A number of posters saw her in a more sympathetic light after this episode, not just a stoic leader with little empathy or warmth. However, I do realise there will always be a section of fandom, no matter what, who will not warm up to this character, so let's just get back on topic, which is Irresponsible.

I wasn't going to comment since more able people have done it already but I just want to add a couple of little observations.

I realise that Irresponsible was in the can already when Irresistible was shown. I would have thought, however, with all the backlash that surrounded the screening of Irresistible, TPTB would have done some judicious editing to make Irresponsible more palatable to the viewers. They did it with other episodes, so why not some extra scenes with Kolya, less of Lucius, different dialogue, anything, anything at all to flesh out a sub-standard episode?

There were some comedic moments and, individually, the scenes were funny but overall it was just a so-so episode which didn't do justice to the demise of Kolya, a sublime villain.

So, what we had here was a shaky foundation to start off with, ie, Lucius and all the controversy that surrounded him in the first episode. So this episode, like a house of cards, because the base was quite weak in the first place, came crashing down in a not surprising fashion.
TPTB could have salvaged this before airing, it had the potential, but they didn't, which was disappointing, since it showed they weren't paying attention to fans' reactions to previous episodes.

On "How To Write a Decent Episode" 101 course, then look no further than last week's "Echoes" where all the major characters and some recurring characters had screen time, there was continuity of story arcs, very few plot holes, and exploration of the city (of which we need more episodes). "Common Ground" was exceptional and so were "Sateda" and "TRW" in terms of character development. Give us more of those and I will be a happy camper. :D

IWantToBelieve
December 8th, 2006, 05:11 AM
Quite honestly, the SG shows are less damaging to a child than say "Two and a Half Men" on CBS, a sitcom which is so rife with sexual innuendo it's pretty bad. In fact, most sitcoms these days rely on that kind of raunchy humor. I miss the days of Gilligan's Island....

Very true. I left it on that channel and the first scene was the guy waking up in bed with his gf and clueless how he'd gotten there.

About the BSG rape bit -- that was so completely different that the comparison is ludicrous. For one, BSG is a dark show that explores repeatedly bleak themes. The rape was that of a prisoner and the attempted rape of another. It was brutal, violent, and the writers intentionally wanted to showcase the inhuman treatment of prisoners by humans.

The intent of the writers in that was very clear.

Stargate, on the other hand, has always been a show with a primarily light, entertaining theme, with occasional dips into the darker, creepier genre. Hathor dealt with rape but you don't see a lot of awfulness on the screen. There was no 'let's get daniel into therapy' or 'jack needs to see McKenzie because of what hathor did to him'...same thing, where the chemical took away the men's ability to make consent on anything. They were used, yet, there were humorous lines in there, "Mama always said there'd be days like this."

Lucius' actions were wrong. The team took away his ability to continue doing it. What else should they have done? Lock him up? The last thing they need is to take on the care of a prisoner and it isn't like they are going to start locking away every criminal they find on other worlds. They are not the Pegasus Police Force.

bluealien
December 8th, 2006, 05:13 AM
I agree the amount of screentime that a character gets does not equate to popularity.

Oh I really like Teyla a lot - although I still think that she has been neglected a little in the first part of S3 and in my opinion that is a shame as I would like to see more of her......but that doesnt alter my opinion of her at all and I am glad to say that in Echoes she had a much bigger part and that looks to be continuing for the rest of the season....especially in Submersion:)

I also think she play an important part in The Ark...another Ken ep!


And submersion is a Teyla ep.:)

Lauriel
December 8th, 2006, 05:18 AM
Quite honestly, the SG shows are less damaging to a child than say "Two and a Half Men" on CBS, a sitcom which is so rife with sexual innuendo it's pretty bad. In fact, most sitcoms these days rely on that kind of raunchy humor. I miss the days of Gilligan's Island....
I agree. My daughter is 11, and I'm much happier with her watching SGA than with her watching sitcoms such as the one you've mentioned. SGA rarely has content that is too disturbing or sexually overt for her, and anything that has aired to date has been acceptable with some moderation from me. Even Irresistable and Common Ground. Irresistable, tbh, I didn't pick up on the rape issue until it was mentioned to me, and I highly doubt my daughter would either. In any case, I rely on my own actions and upbringing to steer her clear of thinking that that behaviour is acceptable. And darker eps like CG, we discuss with an eye to them a) being fictional and pretend and b)if there is anything either her or I find disturbing we will discuss it. I do veto shows from time to time, Farscape being one of them, and many adult shows she simply isn't interested in. SGA is something we can generally share. As opposed to the many sitcoms I wouldn't let her watch.


Some folks just bring along their kids to conventions because they don't have babysitters to watch them at home - it doesn't mean that these kids actually watch the show or should have to participate in a topic of sexual molestation. At least at home their parents can prevent them from watching if they feel its inapproptiate - whatever the topic, sex or violence. Didn't get that opportunity at the con.
Very valid point. Especially since most cons are known to be family friendly.



So, what we had here was a shaky foundation to start off with, ie, Lucius and all the controversy that surrounded him in the first episode. So this episode, like a house of cards, because the base was quite weak in the first place, came crashing down in a not surprising fashion.
TPTB could have salvaged this before airing, it had the potential, but they didn't, which was disappointing, since it showed they weren't paying attention to fans' reactions to previous episodes.

On "How To Write a Decent Episode" 101 course, then look no further than last week's "Echoes" where all the major characters and some recurring characters had screen time, there was continuity of story arcs, very few plot holes, and exploration of the city (of which we need more episodes). "Common Ground" was exceptional and so were "Sateda" and "TRW" in terms of character development. Give us more of those and I will be a happy camper. :D
Where to begin? You've stated everything so wonderfully there Ronnikins, and really cut to the heart of the matter, IMHO. More episodes like Common Ground and Echoes would make me a happy camper also. Actually, a happier camper, since I'm already happy with SGA in most regards. :) :)

FallenAngelII
December 8th, 2006, 05:29 AM
Some folks just bring along their kids to conventions because they don't have babysitters to watch them at home - it doesn't mean that these kids actually watch the show or should have to participate in a topic of sexual molestation. At least at home their parents can prevent them from watching if they feel its inapproptiate - whatever the topic, sex or violence. Didn't get that opportunity at the con.
Stargate Atlantis is not a show for kids younger than, oh, say, 11 (at 11, a healthy kid should know what sex is and not get mentally damaged by hearing it discussed).

Just because some irresponsible parents bring their kids to conventions for things they shouldn't even be watching doesn't mean the other conventioneers have to conform themselves to them.

"Hey, we're at this convention for Battlestar Galactica. But there's some kids running around. Let's never mention anything violent, sexual or disturbing... ever."

The parents brought the kids with them out of their own free will. Sure, it's unfair that they had to because they couldn't find sitters. But the rest of the world doesn't have to conform to protect their little young ones.

And if you hear someone start up a topic you're uncomfortable with your kid hearing, just walk out of there! When you're at home and watching TV and something you think is unsuitable for your little kid pops up, don't you change the channel?

It's the same with cons, just leave ('til it's over).

expendable_crewman
December 8th, 2006, 05:35 AM
Children this, children that. No kid who's too young to understand the concept of sex should be watching Stargate Atlantis where people are mumified alive by having their life force sucked out of them.I didn't know the issue was sex. I thought it was sexual assault. I'm of a mind one topic strikes at folks differently than the other.

While I don't want to debate what's appropriate discussion at conventions, I do think it's okay for fans to say what made them uncomfortable and I think fans who speak up have the right to be taken for their word. Doesn't mean other fans have to follow what they say or even agree.

Also, children do watch Atlantis and children do become fans. Children do attend the conventions and children enjoy them. If a parent says something was an uncomfortable scenario for her child, then it probably was.

Children under a certain age probably won't see under the "skin" of either Lucius ep and so might be surprised or confused that people who've presumably seen more of the world have made a connection or drawn a parallel to a deeper issue.

FallenAngelII
December 8th, 2006, 05:41 AM
I didn't know the issue was sex. I thought it was sexual assault. I'm of a mind one topic strikes at folks differently than the other.

While I don't want to debate what's appropriate discussion at conventions, I do think it's okay for fans to say what made them uncomfortable and I think fans who speak up have the right to be taken for their word. Doesn't mean other fans have to follow what they say or even agree.

Also, children do watch Atlantis and children do become fans. Children do attend the conventions and children enjoy them. If a parent says something was an uncomfortable scenario for her child, then it probably was.

Children under a certain age probably won't see under the "skin" of either Lucius ep and so might be surprised or confused that people who've presumably seen more of the world have made a connection or drawn a parallel to a deeper issue.
None of this means that people should walk on eggshells at conventions. There are bound to be kids everywhere. And some parents might not like the fact that I'm gay.

Doesn't mean I won't kiss my boyfriend at Stargate conventions if I feel like it.

expendable_crewman
December 8th, 2006, 06:04 AM
None of this means that people should walk on eggshells at conventions. There are bound to be kids everywhere. And some parents might not like the fact that I'm gay.

Doesn't mean I won't kiss my boyfriend at Stargate conventions if I feel like it.We could go all kinds of places with this topic if we're not careful, but since you asked, I kiss whomever I please in public and you (and the rest of the world) may do the same, as far as I care.

I have never found appreciating that sometimes there are young people around me the equivalent of walking on eggshells. Maybe others do. I can't speak for them.


But the rest of the world doesn't have to conform to protect their little young ones.Hmm. Words like "conform" scare me. Like I said, we could end up all over the place if we're not careful. I'm not a conformist and I'm not a big fan of telling others how to have fun. I will say that if I showed up at a gathering, whatever that gathering is called, expecting to do one thing, and I find children, I am appreciative of the fact that children deserve a little extra care and I modify my behavior if I feel it needs modifying. The key here is going to be my interpretation of what I feel is appropriate.

I can't tell you what to do. Don't want to. What I am saying is the people who say they were uncomfortable ... probably were. And they deserve to be able to say it without having their opinion skewered because you disagree with it.

prion
December 8th, 2006, 06:05 AM
Stargate, on the other hand, has always been a show with a primarily light, entertaining theme, with occasional dips into the darker, creepier genre. Hathor dealt with rape but you don't see a lot of awfulness on the screen. There was no 'let's get daniel into therapy' or 'jack needs to see McKenzie because of what hathor did to him'...same thing, where the chemical took away the men's ability to make consent on anything. They were used, yet, there were humorous lines in there, "Mama always said there'd be days like this."

Lucius' actions were wrong. The team took away his ability to continue doing it. What else should they have done? Lock him up? The last thing they need is to take on the care of a prisoner and it isn't like they are going to start locking away every criminal they find on other worlds. They are not the Pegasus Police Force.

Stargate has a history of ignoring followup on stuff like you mentioned above. When someone asked if there wouldbe anything in an episode about Daniel dealing with de-ascending, Joe Mallozzi said no. That would happen in between episodes.In other words, they don't write any plots dealing with psychological implications of torture, memory loss, etc. etc. (Thankfully, fanfic writers don't mind filling in the gaps).

Anyway, it's not so much what Shep's team would have done, but why couldn't the writers have tossed in a line from Lucius about escaping his last community.

meanwhile, I feel so sorry for Teyla. Everytime she introduces the team to great trading partners, the ***t hits the fan. Do the writers realize the pattern they're establishing (or will it be like "all of Sam's boyfriends die? Really? we hadn't noticed). ;)

prion
December 8th, 2006, 06:08 AM
Personally, TRW was one of my favourite episodes this season. It added a layer of complexity to Weir's character that may have been perceived as lacking in the previous seasons. A number of posters saw her in a more sympathetic light after this episode, not just a stoic leader with little empathy or warmth. However, I do realise there will always be a section of fandom, no matter what, who will not warm up to this character, so let's just get back on topic, which is Irresponsible.

I realise that Irresponsible was in the can already when Irresistible was shown. I would have thought, however, with all the backlash that surrounded the screening of Irresistible, TPTB would have done some judicious editing to make Irresponsible more palatable to the viewers. They did it with other episodes, so why not some extra scenes with Kolya, less of Lucius, different dialogue, anything, anything at all to flesh out a sub-standard episode?

There were some comedic moments and, individually, the scenes were funny but overall it was just a so-so episode which didn't do justice to the demise of Kolya, a sublime villain.

So, what we had here was a shaky foundation to start off with, ie, Lucius and all the controversy that surrounded him in the first episode. So this episode, like a house of cards, because the base was quite weak in the first place, came crashing down in a not surprising fashion.
TPTB could have salvaged this before airing, it had the potential, but they didn't, which was disappointing, since it showed they weren't paying attention to fans' reactions to previous episodes.

On "How To Write a Decent Episode" 101 course, then look no further than last week's "Echoes" where all the major characters and some recurring characters had screen time, there was continuity of story arcs, very few plot holes, and exploration of the city (of which we need more episodes). "Common Ground" was exceptional and so were "Sateda" and "TRW" in terms of character development. Give us more of those and I will be a happy camper. :D

Just getting in an "I liked The Real World, too". I know some fans hate it as it was a weir-centric episode, but heck, I'm glad she finally got one.

Very good points on the last two paragraphs...

FallenAngelII
December 8th, 2006, 06:09 AM
I'm obviously not going to launch into a rant about hot gay sex at a Stargate convention anytime soon when there are kids around (I'm probably not going to be launch into one ever).

However, discussing something that's such an integral part of "Irresistible" (be it on purpose or not) is valid. If the parents don't like it, steer the kids out of there.

IWantToBelieve
December 8th, 2006, 06:09 AM
Prion, didn't he mention he had to leave 'thanks to you' in the beginning? I think that was the acknowledgement of his 'banning, shunning' or whatever. I'd imagine every society has their own form of punishment and kicking him off their world for him to make do seems pretty good. From what was said in Irresistible, I believe that *was* his home from the beginning?

Anyway, yes Stargate typically deals with the aftermath 'off screen' aka 'not dealing with it' *groan*.

It's a weakness in the show but it doesn't get to me much because like you said, there are some wonderful fic writers that make up for that deficit.

And that is too true about Teyla! Her best flub yet, in fact...the Genii!

macktheknife
December 8th, 2006, 06:30 AM
meanwhile, I feel so sorry for Teyla. Everytime she introduces the team to great trading partners, the ***t hits the fan. Do the writers realize the pattern they're establishing (or will it be like "all of Sam's boyfriends die? Really? we hadn't noticed). ;)

Maybe a writer will notice it..

Weir - How was your trading mission.
Sheppard - They were fair and just traders, just like Teyla's people said they would be. Unlike the last 2 worlds the Athosians told us about.
Teyla - Yes.. those were quite unfortunate "incidents".
McKay - Incidents! I was almost killed three times!
Ronon - You were hiding behind me the whole time.
McKay - Well I was trying to fix the quantam phase shiftlocator. With substandard tools I might add.
Weird - At least you all came back safe and sound...

Melyanna
December 8th, 2006, 06:32 AM
However, discussing something that's such an integral part of "Irresistible" (be it on purpose or not) is valid. If the parents don't like it, steer the kids out of there.

The incident that was discussed yesterday wasn't the first one, either. As I understand it, there was another convention in the last couple months where a date rape victim got up and asked if anyone had considered that the episode could look like it was making light of sexual abuse. I understand that people get uncomfortable with the topic, but that's part of the reason I feel that this one needs to be discussed openly, because it has broad-reaching consequences for the victim and because people would rather just pretend it never happened.

As for the matter of children hearing about this, I have little sympathy for people who brought their children to an event that's typically geared for teenagers and adults. Besides, as someone who found out in the last year that an acquaintance had been molesting his own children, I feel like kids should hear about this kind of thing. Sheltering them doesn't do any good.

It happened in the episode, and the interpretation was a valid one, even if it wasn't what the writers intended. If someone had gotten up and said, "I was raped last week by my ex-boyfriend, could you write an episode that deals with that kind of thing?" I could see why people would find it inappropriate. But as the question pertained to the episode, I say it's fair game.

Anyway, I totally agree with what Ronnikins said a page or so back. I understand that Irresponsible was done before Irresistible aired and a big chunk of the fandom went kaboom, but it's still a bit upsetting. And sounds like the episode wouldn't have been that good even without the baggage of Irresistible.

Given TPTB's track record when it comes to sexual situations, though, I wonder why they even bother trying to rationalize things with the fans in the first place.

FallenAngelII
December 8th, 2006, 06:37 AM
The incident that was discussed yesterday wasn't the first one, either. As I understand it, there was another convention in the last couple months where a date rape victim got up and asked if anyone had considered that the episode could look like it was making light of sexual abuse. I understand that people get uncomfortable with the topic, but that's part of the reason I feel that this one needs to be discussed openly, because it has broad-reaching consequences for the victim and because people would rather just pretend it never happened.

As for the matter of children hearing about this, I have little sympathy for people who brought their children to an event that's typically geared for teenagers and adults. Besides, as someone who found out in the last year that an acquaintance had been molesting his own children, I feel like kids should hear about this kind of thing. Sheltering them doesn't do any good.

It happened in the episode, and the interpretation was a valid one, even if it wasn't what the writers intended. If someone had gotten up and said, "I was raped last week by my ex-boyfriend, could you write an episode that deals with that kind of thing?" I could see why people would find it inappropriate. But as the question pertained to the episode, I say it's fair game.

Anyway, I totally agree with what Ronnikins said a page or so back. I understand that Irresponsible was done before Irresistible aired and a big chunk of the fandom went kaboom, but it's still a bit upsetting. And sounds like the episode wouldn't have been that good even without the baggage of Irresistible.

Given TPTB's track record when it comes to sexual situations, though, I wonder why they even bother trying to rationalize things with the fans in the first place.
At least Irresponsible didn't get close to the subject of rape.

It "only" showed a woman showing her disgust at Lucius when he made a pass at him only to throw herself at him after he saved her from "some ruffians".

It, unfortunately, adds to the PTB's track record of portraying Pegasus women as cheap bimbo floozies.

Melyanna
December 8th, 2006, 06:47 AM
At least Irresponsible didn't get close to the subject of rape.

It "only" showed a woman showing her disgust at Lucius when he made a pass at him only to throw herself at him after he saved her from "some ruffians".

It, unfortunately, adds to the PTB's track record of portraying Pegasus women as cheap bimbo floozies.
*rolls eyes* I've often wondered why all of Pegasus seems to be populated by busty, brainless young women and men old enough to be their fathers. I probably shouldn't wonder.

PTB, boobs do not equal characterization. Thank you. :P

Lauriel
December 8th, 2006, 07:15 AM
*rolls eyes* I've often wondered why all of Pegasus seems to be populated by busty, brainless young women and men old enough to be their fathers. I probably shouldn't wonder.

PTB, boobs do not equal characterization. Thank you. :P

Obviously, given their previous history of gobbling up Ancients, the Wraith prefer the intelligent women as a tasty snack. This sadly leaves the Pegasus Galaxy with an excess of bimbos. :p

Major Fischer
December 8th, 2006, 07:16 AM
PTB, boobs do not equal characterization. Thank you. :P

They don't? Well, there goes my career as a writer. ;)

FallenAngelII
December 8th, 2006, 07:17 AM
Obviously, given their previous history of gobbling up Ancients, the Wraith prefer the intelligent women as a tasty snack. This sadly leaves the Pegasus Galaxy with an excess of bimbos. :p
You're onto something here.

Melyanna
December 8th, 2006, 07:29 AM
Obviously, given their previous history of gobbling up Ancients, the Wraith prefer the intelligent women as a tasty snack. This sadly leaves the Pegasus Galaxy with an excess of bimbos. :p
There's some real merit to this idea. Guess the intelligent ones taste better or something. ;)

FoolishPleasure
December 8th, 2006, 07:57 AM
Since when has Teyla been disliked in Fandom - please don't make wild statements just because you don't like the character. There have been wonderful Teyla moments and IMO she has as many wonderful scenes as Weir or Ronan in Season three. Having less screentime does not equate to not being liked. So please don't turn this thread now into bashing Teyla and do not make statements of behalf of the Fandom.

I'm not making wild statements. I know many people here, and on Live Journal who do not like Teyla, just as you and many of your friends do not like Elizabeth. The common thread in this dislike is that these two women do basicially NOTHING, with just an occasional flash of possibilities. Some think Weir is a "bit" stronger character, some think Teyla is. Fact is, it is BOTH female characters who have been ignored and poorly written from day one on this show. Its as if the writers figured they had to have a couple token women but they didn't know what to do with them.

There have been moments when I think, wow, Teyla could be really cool! Then the next episode she is just window dressing with her gun and her pushup bra. Same with Weir, who can be a strong leader, or a total wuss. Plus the whole "ship" issue is irritating the heck out of me. One week it is Shep and Teyla, but the next week it is Shep and Elizabeth doing google eyes with each other while Teyla and Ronon check each other out, then it is Shep and some bimbo. Lord, I am TIRED of the "shippy" triangles and jerking around the audience. Are Teyla and Weir only there for alternating episodes romancing the hero, who TPTB have themselves dubbed the "Babe Magnet"? *gags*

That's why I so want an episode without Sheppard or McKay even showing up. Have Teyla and Elizabeth work together to save the city, or an episode with Teyla/Weir and the Athosians working together without our indestructible boy wonders. The ladies have the brains. It CAN be done, and it needs to be done more than once a season. It would be a great opportunity for both actresses, but after what I'm seeing on TV, and reading from writers, I doubt such an episode could even be written by this crew.

So, while Teyla is not one of my favs, she "could" be, if the writers dare to get off their Shep & McKay high horse.

SallyLizzie
December 8th, 2006, 08:15 AM
While I don't want to debate what's appropriate discussion at conventions, I do think it's okay for fans to say what made them uncomfortable and I think fans who speak up have the right to be taken for their word. Doesn't mean other fans have to follow what they say or even agree.Agreed, but there's a way of saying something, and if it's a question that you know is serious and there's no guarentee you will be able to be strong up at the microphone, then write it down and take the peice of paper up with you to read off. It's not a case of hiding from a subject, or 'protecting' young children; it's a case of having a bit of common decency and sense, and respecting the other attendees, inc actors/PTB.


As for the matter of children hearing about this, I have little sympathy for people who brought their children to an event that's typically geared for teenagers and adults. Besides, as someone who found out in the last year that an acquaintance had been molesting his own children, I feel like kids should hear about this kind of thing. Sheltering them doesn't do any good.Yes, but there's a time and place, and that is NOT at a Con, with lots of people, where the parent(s)/guardian(s) are not prepared for answering questions appertaining to such a topic.

Amalthia
December 8th, 2006, 08:24 AM
Please tell me that they didn't fall in love with each other (otherwise I'll scour the Net 'til I find that episode).

man, only in my dreams.

but hey! there's Torchwood that looks like it may be heading in that direction with two male leads. (well not sure if one of the guys qualifies as a lead...)

Okay I'm seriously, loving Torchwood at the moment.

Amalthia
December 8th, 2006, 08:33 AM
LOL, how funny and ironic that this ep which seems to be the fans least favorite is having such a high count in discussion.

Generally speaking, when people are happy with something they don't say anything. When something makes them unhappy they show up in record numbers to voice their discontent. Kind of like how the elections turned out this year in the United States.

This is the first time this season I felt compelled to come to these forums and express how unhappy the last episode made me. I thought Irresistable was okay, I was able to suspend disbelief watching it. But on this episode it just wasn't happening, and what's worse it was boring.

Amalthia
December 8th, 2006, 08:37 AM
No, just saying that whining never did anyone any good. I enjoy when some of the wirters come on hear and give their take, but when 90% of their so called fans attack them, they leave. I don't care what you think about me or the show, just don't bash the supposed basis for you passions (the writers of the show you watch). If you could do better, I am sure you already would have.

I doubt 90% of their fans even have internet access, let alone visit forums. We are a small vocal minority. However, it's still pretty telling if one episode gets dumped on more than the others that there was something kind of bad about it.

the problem with Atlantis is that they've made good episodes in the past, fans know the writers can do better, and when they produce crap it's like WTF??? If a parent gets a report card where their child has all F's after making A's and B's....the parent is going to question what's going on.

Trust me I'm not complaining to the writers of Jericho the only place they can go is up based on their first few episodes I saw. Atlantis set the bar in season 1 and people want them to reach that level of quality. Not sink to Jericho type levels of storytelling.

ken_is_here
December 8th, 2006, 09:17 AM
ahh... "Submersion" is yours Ken?
Oh man... i already have wild ideas about that one, now i am pretty sure it will be good... CANT wait for it.

And Teyla-centric ep?... that's really needed.

As for forgetting this one... it's kinda imprinted as one of the worst eps of SG...



Can you tell us just one bit of info more? Please, just hint that Lucius won't appear again if you can... please? pretty please? with cherry on top?
:D

Lucius won't be back during the remainder of season three. That much I know.

astronomicalchick
December 8th, 2006, 09:21 AM
Children this, children that. No kid who's too young to understand the concept of sex should be watching Stargate Atlantis where people are mumified alive by having their life force sucked out of them.

SGA is shown after the watershed here in Britain if I remember correctly. At least it is on first showing.

I watch Torchwood instead.

ken_is_here
December 8th, 2006, 09:43 AM
Sorry, I was referring specifically to the discussion of the Manchester con - which I don't think Ken has contributed to...



I'm so intruiged to know what Ken's idea for bringing back Kolya was... c'mon Ken.. please tell us? Even if it's as wacky and out there as you seem to think, I'd still love to hear it! :D

Okay but don't say I didn't warn you :)

My pitch was that Ladon contacted Atlantis with proof that Kolya was still alive. Sheppard goes to investigate -- planning to finish him off once and for all... I won't bore you with the details -- but it turns out to be one of Kolya's men who is using a Pegasus version of the SG-1 "Foothold" device in order to reestablish Kolya's rebel force. At one point in the pitch, McKay was forced to use the device in order to convince everyone he was Kolya. So it was really more about bringing back Robert Davi (whom I love) than Kolya.

Told ya it was lame...

Amalthia
December 8th, 2006, 09:58 AM
Yes, but there's a time and place, and that is NOT at a Con, with lots of people, where the parent(s)/guardian(s) are not prepared for answering questions appertaining to such a topic.

Personally, anyone that has kids should be prepared to answer all sorts of questions regardless of where they are located when asked. If you aren't ready to answer those questions, I don't think a person is quite ready to be a parent yet. Let alone let their kid out in public where people have conversations.

I feel very strongly against having children at conventions. It's not safe with all the crowds, people dress in some of the wackiest costumes (that sometimes hide nothing) and there are a lot of teenagers and adults there expecting to have adult conversations. Or at least not worry about moderating what they say because kids are around.

Stargate is mostly an adult TV show, sure it has juvenile humor, but that doesn't take away the fact that there is a lot of violence, and death and disturbing images.

FoolishPleasure
December 8th, 2006, 10:00 AM
Okay but don't say I didn't warn you :)

My pitch was that Ladon contacted Atlantis with proof that Kolya was still alive. Sheppard goes to investigate -- planning to finish him off once and for all... I won't bore you with the details -- but it turns out to be one of Kolya's men who is using a Pegasus version of the SG-1 "Foothold" device in order to reestablish Kolya's rebel force. At one point in the pitch, McKay was forced to use the device in order to convince everyone he was Kolya. So it was really more about bringing back Robert Davi (whom I love) than Kolya.

Told ya it was lame...

Ugh, glad it was changed. *LOL* There have been enough complaints that the writers this year have simply been dusting off old SG1 scripts to re-tweak, such as Progeny was a reworking of Unnatural Selection, Phantoms was a redo of Paradise Lost, and The Ark is rumored to be a remake of Lifeboat (we shall see on that one). This version you describe above would have received a lot of jeers for copying Foothold. Glad it was changed. ;)

FallenAngelII
December 8th, 2006, 10:02 AM
I agree completely with Amalthia (I've said pretty much what she said already).

A Stargate con is not a place for a small kid. If you choose to take your kid there, don't expect us to take consideration of the kid and moderate everything we talk about to the point where it's all about fluffy clouds and kittens.

There are some things you have to give up as a parent to a young child. If you can't find a babysitter, tough. Stay at home. Or if you do bring the kid along, don't expect us to walk on egg shells around it.

Pitry
December 8th, 2006, 10:27 AM
Ugh, glad it was changed. *LOL* There have been enough complaints that the writers this year have simply been dusting off old SG1 scripts to re-tweak, such as Progeny was a reworking of Unnatural Selection, Phantoms was a redo of Paradise Lost, and The Ark is rumored to be a remake of Lifeboat (we shall see on that one). This version you describe above would have received a lot of jeers for copying Foothold. Glad it was changed. ;)

I was actually thinking of Company of Thieves, but Foothold would work as well. :) (Or somke and Mirrors, or... )
(OT: I dind't see Phantoms as a redo of Paradise Lost, but maybe I'm prejudiced because it was oen of my favourites for the etnire show... ;))

As for bringing back Kolya: As much as it's a shame he was killed off, it'd be a mistake to bring him back. Having seen him shot dead - an dI'm pretty sure the team checked he was dead of camera - whatever way to bring him back would have to include a huge deus ex machina.
Unless it's an AU Kolya. Hmmm..

(Of course, that might prompt accusations of redoing Point of View :D)

SallyLizzie
December 8th, 2006, 10:34 AM
Personally, anyone that has kids should be prepared to answer all sorts of questions regardless of where they are located when asked. If you aren't ready to answer those questions, I don't think a person is quite ready to be a parent yet. Let alone let their kid out in public where people have conversations. I think you misunderstood me. There's a difference between a parent preparing themselves to sit down and explain the facts of life to their child, and to them being caught off-guard during what they expect to be a fun-filled day. (and in this case, where they may not foresee such a question being asked bc they personally didn't see that aspect of the ep.)

Alipeeps
December 8th, 2006, 10:39 AM
Okay but don't say I didn't warn you :)

My pitch was that Ladon contacted Atlantis with proof that Kolya was still alive. Sheppard goes to investigate -- planning to finish him off once and for all... I won't bore you with the details -- but it turns out to be one of Kolya's men who is using a Pegasus version of the SG-1 "Foothold" device in order to reestablish Kolya's rebel force. At one point in the pitch, McKay was forced to use the device in order to convince everyone he was Kolya. So it was really more about bringing back Robert Davi (whom I love) than Kolya.

Told ya it was lame...

Heee! That sounds great fun! I love it! :lol: Sorry... am just away in my own little world imagining McKay trying to impersonate Kolya... *dies* That would be soo funny.. in a desperately cringe-making way... :D :D

Man, you should write it as a short story or something... :D


Ugh, glad it was changed. *LOL* There have been enough complaints that the writers this year have simply been dusting off old SG1 scripts to re-tweak, such as Progeny was a reworking of Unnatural Selection, Phantoms was a redo of Paradise Lost, and The Ark is rumored to be a remake of Lifeboat (we shall see on that one). This version you describe above would have received a lot of jeers for copying Foothold. Glad it was changed. ;)

It hasn't been "changed", it was an idea that was pitched and turned down. Though, honestly, I don't see how that storyline could be considered to be "copying Foothold" when the only thing it has in common is the notion of a similar device.

Sheppard's Delight
December 8th, 2006, 10:42 AM
I agree completely with Amalthia (I've said pretty much what she said already).

A Stargate con is not a place for a small kid. If you choose to take your kid there, don't expect us to take consideration of the kid and moderate everything we talk about to the point where it's all about fluffy clouds and kittens.

There are some things you have to give up as a parent to a young child. If you can't find a babysitter, tough. Stay at home. Or if you do bring the kid along, don't expect us to walk on egg shells around it.

You guys do realise that the 'con' we are all discussing was NOT a Stargate con at all. It was 'Collectormania' a general weekend event for people to go and get autographs from all sorts of stars from lots of different shows. It just so happens that there were 3 Stargate people there and they had a brief spell on stage to answer a few questions.

Sheylafan87
December 8th, 2006, 10:44 AM
I have to say thatt this episode was ok not the best one of this season. It had a few good team interactions.
-I did like the end of it, the part where it was like a old western with John and Koyla waiting to shoot each other and John just wams takes his gun and shoots him point blank in the chest and Koyla falls to the floor.
-John seemed to be releieved that he finally got what he wanted. I liked how rodney was diging his way but that he hardly got any where and when Koyla was kidding about the food that the team ate was fun cause Rodney was like OMG.
-I liked how teyla knew how to clam John down with the whole you cant kill him and they bickered and the others started to agree with her and John changed his mind. Its like a woman can change him mind and Teyla seemed to know how to make him listen.
-I did love the team intereactions and the fact that Beckett was in it also was worth it since he may not be around for the next season.

Amalthia
December 8th, 2006, 11:02 AM
I think you misunderstood me. There's a difference between a parent preparing themselves to sit down and explain the facts of life to their child, and to them being caught off-guard during what they expect to be a fun-filled day. (and in this case, where they may not foresee such a question being asked bc they personally didn't see that aspect of the ep.)

you know I'm sure most parents want to be able to sit down and discuss things with their kids and not get blindsided...but life's kind of unpredictable.

Also, parents/adults should know that drugging someone and having sex with them is rape. Not caring is one thing, but not being aware of it??? Just make sure when you have that conversation with your child you let him/her know if they do have sex with someone that's been drugged or is falling down drunk they better not tell any police officers because they'll get arrested. (I majored in Criminal Justice and a few of my former professors used to be police officers and they said they arrested quite a few people who admitted they had sex with drunk girls/women not realizing it was a crime....scary.)

Gheorghe
December 8th, 2006, 11:02 AM
Hmm how should i start.
Ppl this episode is so skrewed up ... well for starters the personal shield is bound(only works) for the guy that activated it ... in that way Lucius and Sheppart couldn't use it since they didn't activated it. I make my state from the Hide and Seak episode where the sheild only worked for Rodney. So no shield for lucius ... no episode for SGA just a bunch of no sense action.

Btw we want more vs wraith or pegasus replicators action (space fights would be great) and maybe add how many wraith hives are left in the galaxy since i read around 60 were in the zone where the data device was pulled off(the one the genii or however u spell that had) sry for my english .

PS the series are better overall but u make a bunch of crapy episodes like this ... it's not just SGA, SG1 has em also. Sry for my english i live in Romania

Amalthia
December 8th, 2006, 11:06 AM
You guys do realise that the 'con' we are all discussing was NOT a Stargate con at all. It was 'Collectormania' a general weekend event for people to go and get autographs from all sorts of stars from lots of different shows. It just so happens that there were 3 Stargate people there and they had a brief spell on stage to answer a few questions.

It doesn't matter what fandom the con is for it's still not good to take children to them. If this was a glorified shopping trip they should have stuck to buying the collectables and avoided the panels or get a babysitter. Anytime an actor shows up for one of these things hundreds of people flock to them.

Conventions are not the place for young children.

prion
December 8th, 2006, 11:21 AM
I'm not making wild statements. I know many people here, and on Live Journal who do not like Teyla, just as you and many of your friends do not like Elizabeth. The common thread in this dislike is that these two women do basicially NOTHING, with just an occasional flash of possibilities. Some think Weir is a "bit" stronger character, some think Teyla is. Fact is, it is BOTH female characters who have been ignored and poorly written from day one on this show. Its as if the writers figured they had to have a couple token women but they didn't know what to do with them.


I'm on a lot of boards/lists, andyes, there is anti-Teyla sentiment, and anti-sentiment for Weir as well, AND for Shep, and for McKay but the female characters for some reason seem to get more anti-sentiment. I don't know why. Perhaps because they're just not given enough to do??


Generally speaking, when people are happy with something they don't say anything. When something makes them unhappy they show up in record numbers to voice their discontent. Kind of like how the elections turned out this year in the United States.


Alas, the elections. Don't get me started at how screwed up the U.S. system is....


Lucius won't be back during the remainder of season three. That much I know.

Yup, we know that ;) Now, if we can be assured he won't show up in Season 4, I'll be a happy camper (as long as he's not replaced by somebody even worse).


Personally, anyone that has kids should be prepared to answer all sorts of questions regardless of where they are located when asked. If you aren't ready to answer those questions, I don't think a person is quite ready to be a parent yet. Let alone let their kid out in public where people have conversations.


Agreed.


I feel very strongly against having children at conventions. It's not safe with all the crowds, people dress in some of the wackiest costumes (that sometimes hide nothing) and there are a lot of teenagers and adults there expecting to have adult conversations. Or at least not worry about moderating what they say because kids are around.


Most conventions ARE geared toward adult attendees. If a person brings along a child, they should be responsible for them. They should do the homework and make sure the convention is 'child friendly.' and no, you can't 'vet' each question a fan is going to ask (well, you can, but then you'll be censoring everybody if one person on the con staff doesn't like it). It's the real world, and occasionally questions that someone isn't going to like are going to get through. If the audience doesn't like, you'll know if a few seconds, that's for sure.

nonniemous
December 8th, 2006, 12:29 PM
Personally, anyone that has kids should be prepared to answer all sorts of questions regardless of where they are located when asked. If you aren't ready to answer those questions, I don't think a person is quite ready to be a parent yet. Let alone let their kid out in public where people have conversations.

Having kids means being ready to answer just about anything, anywhere. I'm pretty liberal about what I let my kids read and/or watch, but I'd think very seriously about taking them to a con before they were at least 10 or 12. Cons aren't like visiting Disneyland.

Still, I can't argue with the bringing up of the subject of rape in Irresistable in the Q&A time; it's a valid question because, intentional or not, that IS how a good number of fans saw that aspect of the episode. It seemed especially obvious in the way the scene between John in the cell and Lucius taunting him was played. Lucius seemed to be distinctly taunting John that he could--and would--have anyone he liked from the expedition, Teyla, Elizabeth, or whomever, and John couldn't stop him.

What left me going WTF? was "Irresponsible" and the team appearing so blase' about Lucius. Sure, they insisted Carson whip out his handydandy magic miniature lab and run test to be certain Lucius didn't have the herb again, but after that they almost seemed to like him, and that really, really, really did not compute for me--especially after he'd threatened people so clearly in that prior scene. What happened to the John from The Eye/The Storm, who had no qualms about taking out anyone who threatened his team, the John that told Teyla he'd do anything to protect his family? I can't see that character being so calm about running into Lucius again.

Then again, obviously TPTB didn't see the same things in the first episode that some fans did, though I don't really understand how they could miss it. Then again, an episode isn't just the script or the story idea, it's the sum total of what the actors bring to their characters and the production and directing and all that, not to mention each viewer's personal filters. So there can be layers to events and comments that were never intended when the stories were put together.

psychofilly
December 8th, 2006, 01:04 PM
Okay but don't say I didn't warn you :)

My pitch was that Ladon contacted Atlantis with proof that Kolya was still alive. Sheppard goes to investigate -- planning to finish him off once and for all... I won't bore you with the details -- but it turns out to be one of Kolya's men who is using a Pegasus version of the SG-1 "Foothold" device in order to reestablish Kolya's rebel force. At one point in the pitch, McKay was forced to use the device in order to convince everyone he was Kolya. So it was really more about bringing back Robert Davi (whom I love) than Kolya.

Told ya it was lame...

I wouldn't go so far as lame, but I can see why you'd reject it after first blush. However, I'd pay good money to see Robert Davi have to act like David Hewlett. I'd give the money I'm saving for a new washing machine to see him pull that off. ;)


I'm on a lot of boards/lists, andyes, there is anti-Teyla sentiment, and anti-sentiment for Weir as well, AND for Shep, and for McKay but the female characters for some reason seem to get more anti-sentiment. I don't know why. Perhaps because they're just not given enough to do??

I'll pop up and say that my sentiments towards Weir and Teyla weren't the best. I think for Teyla, part of it was the noble savage thing, and the other part was just Rachell Lutrell. I am however willing to give an actor time to grow as an actor... One of the most enjoyable aspect of Buffy and Angel for me was watching David Boreanaz go from stiffer than a stake to a phenomenal actor, and you can really see the growth and where he started completely inhabiting the role in ATSs2. Rachel has gotten there a lot faster. She just seemed very stiff and one dimensional in the first season, but has completely won me over to date as an actress and character.

Weir on the other hand I'm still struggling with. By all first hand accounts and from what I've seen on TV Torri is completely adorable and fun in person. (The Stargates really do hire the loveliest women). I've had real issues with how Weir is portrayed. For someone who is supposed to be such a cracker jack diplomat, we rarely see it, and while, in season one we had scenes where she handled John and even pretty effectively dressed him down, in season two, my perception was that John and Rodney ran all over her.

I just didn't see her use any great diplomatic skill with aliens or her own crew that much. She came off as a weak leader to me. Paradoxically, this year, as they have shown her more vulnerable, I find her stronger. I really liked the depression arc and her struggles to find a way to fit in as woman and leader. Other than Progeny, where I thought the entire team and Weir specifically showed some pretty inexcuseable arrogance towards the Asurans, I've really been grooving on her this year.

I also think part of the problem is I was watching all four seasons of Farscape last year for the first time and so I was holding every other female character on TV at the time up to Aeryn Sun and finding them lacking. For me that was one of the shining examples of getting a female character right, warts and all.

Amalthia
December 8th, 2006, 01:12 PM
I also think part of the problem is I was watching all four seasons of Farscape last year for the first time and so I was holding every other female character on TV at the time up to Aeryn Sun and finding them lacking. For me that was one of the shining examples of getting a female character right, warts and all.

I still use Farscape as a benchmark for great TV and a lot of shows come up short when comparing. I don't think any show has yet to be as creative or imaginative or have such an interesting array of characters. Aeryn Sun is my favorite female character on any TV show.

Though I think other tv shows are starting to create interesting female characters with strong personality. I'm completely in love with Starbuck and Laura Roslin from BSG. Veronica Mars is pretty awesome too. I also love Joss Whedon's treatment of women in his TV shows....but yeah to compare Aeyrn Sun to either Weir or Teyla...they come so far short in terms of character development it's like comparing Return of the King to the movie Dungeons and Dragons.

edit: Teyla and Weir have so much potential and it's wasted on this show. I mean I can understand if Weir doesn't get much screen time, Hammond in the original SG-1 series wasn't a major figure in every episode, but Teyla as part of Sheppard's team should have had as much screen time as her other teammates.

Pitry
December 8th, 2006, 01:12 PM
Yup, we know that ;) Now, if we can be assured he won't show up in Season 4, I'll be a happy camper (as long as he's not replaced by somebody even worse).



Hmm.. the wraith version of Lucius Lavin.

Pegasus_SGA
December 8th, 2006, 01:15 PM
I think you would all be jumping for joy that J&P were spearheading the fourth season of SGA. It was that good!

And I say this unbiased and unsolicited -- as my involvement with season four will likely be minimal to non-existant, due to the cancellation of SG-1.

Ken C

Hi Ken,

Thanks for taking the time to come and chat with us, for all our griping we do love SGA, and our concerns come from the fact that we don't want the show to end up cancelled. I'm all for great scripts, but this wasn't one of them. I had hoped that given Sheppard's and Kolya's last meeting that we would at least have the same caliber of writing for their story arc that we'd seen in Common Ground, but it was waaaay off base, floating down the river heading out towards the Atlantic. Mixing humour with angst is always great to watch and in some episodes it works. I actually enjoyed Irresistable and thought it was hilarious, but not this. I don't hate this ep, i'm just extreemly disappointed that we didn't really get any of the sequences that the fans were hoping for. And to kill Kolya in that manner was just downright despicable. I completely understand it was supposed to be a western style shoot out, and maybe it would have worked if it had been shot like that. But it fell so far off the mark that it was just disappointing. The scenes with the villagers did nothing to increase the angst, instead the whole scenes fell flat - there was none of that ancipation or ansgst. And Kolya allowing his men to kill Sheppard didn't fit with his character. Sheppard was Kolya's nemesis, it didn't make sense that he wouldn't have been the one to kill Sheppard, as that had been his plan and his reasons for being on the planet in the first place just didn't fit with what we know of their past. And I don't even want to go down the villagers taking up arms route, because itwould just write myself into a tizzy, that whole scene was wrong on so many levels.

The only decent scene was when they realised Kolya was there, and this is the sort of angst that should have been scripted throughout. Common Ground was a phenominal episode, it was dark and gritty and what I enjoyed most about it, was that you were prepared to take a risk and it paid off. Even if the ep was supposed to be set a different way and there were some miscommunications, it doesn't negate from the fact that the two stories should never have been intertwined. The story arc between Sheppard, Kolya and the team should have been a stand alone episode. The fans needed to have some resolution on the repurcutions of actions and so forth. With this ep it just left a bitter taste in people's mouths, they were expecting angst, dark humour, action and drama, and all we ended up with was a sorry excuse for an episode, that was not anywhere near the caliber of Common ground, or any of the other S3 eps so far this season. We lost a great character to a script that wasn't worthy, and if there is any chance of bringing Kolya back, and to have a stand alone episode of the repurcusions of Common Ground not just for Sheppard, but for the whole team who had to endure the torture scenes.

I'm gutted that you won't be involved for SGA anymore, or that it's unlikely and it will be a real loss to the fans. To be perfectly honest with you, if the writing continues like this ep, then the show is doomed to failure. You know the characters so well that it shows in your writing, and we don't want to lose that. I'm willing to give J&P the benefit of the doubt as I love the scripts they did for SG1, but I am concerned. I hope that somehow they can find a place for you in S4.

Good luck and thank you for some very memorable episodes.

Scully

psychofilly
December 8th, 2006, 01:30 PM
I still use Farscape as a benchmark for great TV and a lot of shows come up short when comparing. I don't think any show has yet to be as creative or imaginative or have such an interesting array of characters. Aeryn Sun is my favorite female character on any TV show.
The interesting theing was, it was seeing the cast at Dragon Con that made me even want to see the show. I caught the two worst episodes in the first year, went WTF and turned it off. Woe. I'm so glad my dad of all people drug me to that panel. I watched Peacekeeper Wars first and last, and the middle all in one go as fast as I could get my grubby hands on the DVDs.


Though I think other tv shows are starting to create interesting female characters with strong personality. I'm completely in love with Starbuck and Laura Roslin from BSG. Veronica Mars is pretty awesome too. I also love Joss Whedon's treatment of women in his TV shows.

LOVE BSG, love it. Have never seen Veronica Mars, but I have to beg to differ on Whedon. Up to season five of Buffy and Season Three on Angel, I'd have pretty much agree, but Whedon and company raped and pillaged their own characters. What was done to Cordelia Chase/Charisma Carpenter on Angel in Season Four is the only time in TV history that I literally had to turn the TV off after a show and walk away. I watched both shows to the bitter end, but in the end... Joss Whedon lost his "male-feminist" cred with me. Buffy didn't even save the world. Spike did.

You'll have to forgive me on this. Angel was my primary fandom. I lived and breathed that show and wrote for Cordy pretty extensively, and the love and hate are there in equal measures. Season four of Angel and Six of Buffy tied me up in knots and made me hurt, and not in the best of ways... and yet, I can't deny that it was ambitious and compelling. It was an overreaching train wreck in a way that Irresitable and Irresponsible were not. Whedon damaged my love for Buffy and Angel in the way that they acted and treated the characters around them, and yet... a very grudging part of me still loves them all and Whedon did redeem himself a bit with Firefly and Serenity.

Amalthia
December 8th, 2006, 01:49 PM
LOVE BSG, love it. Have never seen Veronica Mars, but I have to beg to differ on Whedon. Up to season five of Buffy and Season Three on Angel, I'd have pretty much agree, but Whedon and company raped and pillaged their own characters. What was done to Cordelia Chase/Charisma Carpenter on Angel in Season Four is the only time in TV history that I literally had to turn the TV off after a show and walk away. I watched both shows to the bitter end, but in the end... Joss Whedon lost his "male-feminist" cred with me. Buffy didn't even save the world. Spike did.

... a very grudging part of me still loves them all and Whedon did redeem himself a bit with Firefly and Serenity.

When I mentioned Whedon I was kind of thinking Firefly and Serenity. I loved Kayelee, River, Inara, and Zoe.

Now as for what happened with Coredelia...I almost stopped watching too. Not sure what the hell happened there.

but I still think Buffy was one of the few shows at the time that had a strong interesting woman character in the lead role of the series and while the show did go to some weird places in season 6 and espeically season 7...it doesn't take away my love for the character. I also really liked Faith... the thing is the characters didn't feel one-dimensional.

I think my love for these characters carried me through some of the weaker story archs in both series.

lunarleviathan
December 8th, 2006, 03:16 PM
In my opinion this was yet another great episode from the so far so fantastic season3.

ShoDar
December 8th, 2006, 06:09 PM
You know, my 2 main complaints with the episode were that Lucius lost his evilness (which I'm not really sure the writers intended him to have anyway) and that the Kolya/Sheppard resolution deserved more intensity.

But prompted by a fic I read yesterday, I have to say that I'm willing entertain changing my mind on the second part. Huge climactic events may make for good TV and may make the fans feel better, but they are rarely a part of real life. Every "big" event in my life has been met with a sense of "Oh, I expected something....bigger." As a fan I would have liked to see something more substantial in the final interaction, but creatively there is something to be said for Sheppard having to deal with the let down of what it being over (not that we'll see that on screen)

Mitchell82
December 8th, 2006, 10:04 PM
In my opinion this was yet another great episode from the so far so fantastic season3.

Just to clairify are you being serious? Some peoeple here are sarcastic. I personally agree with you as I loved this ep as well.

jerkface
December 8th, 2006, 10:30 PM
Whew, alright, I hope after 38 pages of discussion I'm not being repetitive, but here's what I thought:

Overall, I found Irresponsible quite a disappointing episode. I didn't mind Irresistible (the whole rape issue never occured to me on first viewing) save for the bizarre return to lightheartedness at the very end.

Unfortunately, it seems like the same failure to go through with a darker tone caused problems in Irresponsible as well. It seemed like Lavin was supposed to be more sympathetic, or at least on the path to improvement; I almost felt sorry for him when the village wench dismissed his past (apparently genuine) moment of heroism as old news.

This "what have you done for me lately" attitude on the villagers' part might have worked with the idea that they needed to learn to defend themselves if it had been played up more. Yet as Lavin kept acting self-serving and manipulative, and the villagers kept falling for it, I couldn't really feel sorry for either them or him.

This still might have worked (especially with the semi-western theme) if there had been more development of the team's disgust at Lavin's a(or im-)morality, and the townspeoples' willingness to worship a hero figure. But in spite of a good early Teyla-Sheppard scene, the team seemed too busy running around an awkward set carrying out confused/failed plots.

I think that was what bugged me the most—even if the set had looked western instead of Dutch, they made poor use of the space. It looked like a dozen people running around the same few feet of ground, pretending their movements made sense.

Kolya's appearance (and death) here were almost too bizarre to be anything but annoying. His motivations (and Sheppard's) weren't clear here. I knew what they should be from past episodes of course, but they should have been better (or at all) developed within this episode. Was this just a way to replace Kolya with Haemon? Or will there be no more Genii coups? If it's the latter, I'm even more disappointed. It seemed like they're the only source for more complex (human) political intrigue-type plots in Pegasus (beyond one episode, "and let us never speak of them again" civilizations).

Oh well, I will look forward to more Teyla development. I like both her and Weir.

the old briar pipe
December 8th, 2006, 11:16 PM
I wouldn't go so far as lame, but I can see why you'd reject it after first blush. However, I'd pay good money to see Robert Davi have to act like David Hewlett. I'd give the money I'm saving for a new washing machine to see him pull that off. ;)

Omg, yes! Maybe he could be convinced to do it at a con or something. I don't think that would come across on paper...

FoolishPleasure mentioned wanting a Weir & Teyla ep. That would be teh awesome and would probably address many of the issues some folks have with the characters. They don't always seemed fleshed out, do they? Maybe because they mostly interact with men on screen, even though we do know there's a lady's poker night out there somewhere.

That said, I love both characters, warts and all. Aerin is Aerin and unbeatable in any context, but Teyla and Elizabeth both have their "aw, shucks" moments and the ones that twist my heart a little, too. People don't talk about it much, but Teyla's confrontation of John in "Letters from Pegasus" and her later reaction to Ronon in "Trinity" are pretty awesome - though it would be nice to see more of the side she shows when Elizabeth hands over power in "No Man's Land". The easy way they understood each other was cool.

(Side note on "Irresponsible" - can anyone tell me why the male characters in the village got names but the female one was "Serving Wench"? I mean, if this was supposed to be a western, the barmaid always gets a name. Usually "Sal". :p )

the old briar pipe
December 8th, 2006, 11:26 PM
Apropos of nothing...

Where have I seen Haemon's actor before? This is driving me nuts. No credits up on omnipedia or the ep page yet.

jerkface
December 9th, 2006, 12:24 AM
Apropos of nothing...

Where have I seen Haemon's actor before? This is driving me nuts. No credits up on omnipedia or the ep page yet.

I think it's Dean Wray. At least he gets a credit between Davi and McGeachie (she's the wench) after the title, and I'm not sure who else in the episode has enough lines to be listed there (Amaris, and the other speaking Genii are listed in the final credits. Wray's imdb doesn't have a photo though, so I'm not sure.

the old briar pipe
December 9th, 2006, 12:33 AM
I think it's Dean Wray.

Thank you! You're probably right. And whew, where haven't I seen the guy? But I could have sworn he'd been in something historical, Sharpe maybe. But Andromeda and Sentinel and Highlander work, too. *boggles*

I like that the Stargate franchise can get so many experienced actors on board as one-shots or even recurring characters. It really fleshes out the series. (Except when I'm scratching my head :p )

FallenAngelII
December 9th, 2006, 03:09 AM
I think you misunderstood me. There's a difference between a parent preparing themselves to sit down and explain the facts of life to their child, and to them being caught off-guard during what they expect to be a fun-filled day. (and in this case, where they may not foresee such a question being asked bc they personally didn't see that aspect of the ep.)


You guys do realise that the 'con' we are all discussing was NOT a Stargate con at all. It was 'Collectormania' a general weekend event for people to go and get autographs from all sorts of stars from lots of different shows. It just so happens that there were 3 Stargate people there and they had a brief spell on stage to answer a few questions.
Last time I checked, Collectormania usually has people from TV-shows and movies that aren't suitable for small children; shows and movies with lots of violence (albeit sometimes in funny way).

If you bring your kid (who's too young to understand the concept of sex) to such a place, it's your responsibility.

And, still, once the question was asked, how hard was it to leave?! It's like when watching TV. If someone you deem to be inappropriate for your child pops up, you switch the channel. Your kid will have caught a glimpse of it, anyway, but you have the option to switch the channel. Here, you had the option to leave.

Linzi
December 9th, 2006, 03:33 AM
Last time I checked, Collectormania usually has people from TV-shows and movies that aren't suitable for small children; shows and movies with lots of violence (albeit sometimes in funny way).

If you bring your kid (who's too young to understand the concept of sex) to such a place, it's your responsibility.

And, still, once the question was asked, how hard was it to leave?! It's like when watching TV. If someone you deem to be inappropriate for your child pops up, you switch the channel. Your kid will have caught a glimpse of it, anyway, but you have the option to switch the channel. Here, you had the option to leave.
But why should you leave? Those who have kids and are family oriented may like to include their children in a trip to a Con. At Manchester there were stars from Lord of The Rings, The A Team, Star Trek: Next Generation to name a few, and these are all films/shows kids like! There are no age limitations or warnings, so it is deemed suitable for all. At the Con I went to in London there were children there, a couple even asked Joe questions at the Q & A. Stargate Atlantis is marketed as a family show, thus kids enjoy it. My own 10 year old has been watching it since it began and is a big fan, and I see nothing in it that's unsuitable for her. BSG, for example, would be another matter.
Would I have been upset if she had listened to the poster who asked about the alleged sexual assault stuff at the Manchester Con? Nope. I personally wouldn't have had a problem with it, as she wouldn't have understood what was being asked. However, once the question had been asked and answered by the panel, then it should've been been politely dropped. Just because you don't want the answer you're given, isn't a reason to carry on going on about sexual assault once the panel have answered. Whether people like it or not, TPTB have stated on several occasions that it was never their intention to trivialise rape, and have said that's not what Irresistible was about from their perspectives. What else can they say? If people are expecting an apology from the Execs, then I think they're being unrealistic. After all, we all interpret things differently, and just because some see events one way, and others don't doesn't mean there's anything to apologise for in my opinion. Whether posters enjoyed the episode is another matter entirely! I can't ever see any Exec apologising because we, as fans, didn't like the episode they put out.
As far as Irresponsible goes, I still am disappointed with it, but it has nothing to do with Irrestistible. I don't like Lucius. I tolerated him in Irresistible, but putting him and Kolya together was still a massive error in judgment in my opinion. It trivialised Kolya, in my eyes, and I still am apoplectic at the way he was disposed of. That, for me, was such a waste of a character and good drama!!!!

Sheppard's Delight
December 9th, 2006, 03:34 AM
Last time I checked, Collectormania usually has people from TV-shows and movies that aren't suitable for small children; shows and movies with lots of violence (albeit sometimes in funny way).

If you bring your kid (who's too young to understand the concept of sex) to such a place, it's your responsibility.

And, still, once the question was asked, how hard was it to leave?! It's like when watching TV. If someone you deem to be inappropriate for your child pops up, you switch the channel. Your kid will have caught a glimpse of it, anyway, but you have the option to switch the channel. Here, you had the option to leave.

Well actually I guess it depends where you were sitting? They do pack people in and there is not much leg room - you cant just get past everyone without having to ask to be excused.

I also think that maybe the option to turn the TV off applies to adults too. I know that some were really traumatised by watching Irresistible but then tuned in to watch Irresponsible....that is something that I really do not understand at all. Personally I would not subject myself to that.