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female Wraith
December 6th, 2006, 01:17 PM
Is it just me or is it that wherever Lucius goes, villagers collectively lose half of their IQ? Even after John's revelation and Lucius failing utterly to fight off the Genii and telling the villagers to fend for themselves this time, they were utterly stupid and came up with the rationalization that Lucius was trying to teach them to be independant.

What a bunch of morons.

It's not just you. The villagers were..well not actually idiots..but...
I couldn't believe that Teyla said they were good traders!
May be Lucuis has a list of planets with a population like the inhabitants of the the village and go only there...I can not explain why the women there were so...brainless.

ShadowMaat
December 6th, 2006, 01:30 PM
Doesn't Teyla ALWAYS say they're good traders? Heck, she even said it about the Genii. :P

The whole "if you live in a small village you must be a moron" vibe off eps like these is a bit insulting, IMO. Frankly, I don't think we need the Wraith at all, these people are so stupid they'll wipe themselves out. Heck, they might even need the Wraith to save them from themselves! ;)

lord-anubis
December 6th, 2006, 01:32 PM
best line in the whole ep was from ronen

shes right well have to kill them all im all right with that by the way lol

makay fave hero was batman i never would have guessed i dident think he wasted his time with stuff like that.

ken_is_here
December 6th, 2006, 01:36 PM
What Lucius did was rape. He took a drug and that drug removed the ability of the women to give their consent. No consent = rape. Changing your appearance or even slapping on those cheap-smelling colognes like Axe may change how women perceive you but those actions do NOT take away their ability to give consent. It's not a valid comparison.

(ETA: Wolf Eire, I completely agree with your comments about the women in this ep.)


Two more things about the ep:

1) I noticed that when the team (the men really, not Teyla :rolleyes:) discussed their heroes they were all nicely stereotyped to the characters. John likes fast cars so he gets Evil Knievel, Rodney likes brains so he gets Batman, Carson is Scottish so his hero is also from Scotland, Ronon is a tough guy so his hero is also tough. I imagine that was the easy route to take, but it would have been nice to see them give answers that didn't fall so cleanly into their stereotypes. It would have added to the complexities of the characters.

2) This ep featured another team clip where Shep and/or Rodney are explaining a quirky feature of Earth (TV, Knievel, etc) and Teyla and/or Ronon react with confusion or eyerolling. It would be nice to see the reverse happen more often - have the team stroll along while Teyla or Ronon tell something interesting about their people and have Shep or Rodney react to that. We know plenty about Earth, it would be nice to learn more about the quirks of the Athosians and other people from the PG.


(Is that an Ergo Proxy ad at the top of my screen? Oh joy!! :D)

I'm BACK! (Can you tell I don't feel like doing my work today?)

This is a perfect example of forming an opinion about something you don't have all the info on.

When Joseph wrote this episode -- he was in the office across from me -- I overheard him asking the actors who THEY thought their in-show heroes should be. It was Joe Flannigan himself who chose Evil Knievel. And Joseph worked it into the script. afterwords.

Ken

ken_is_here
December 6th, 2006, 01:39 PM
No, I mean he was a different person, period. He went under a different identity and behaved utterly different. Like a Jeckyl/Hyde situation. In many ways the thin alter ego was an obnoxious jerk.

He was the same person. Just because you give yourself a new name -- in this case Buddy Love (not very subtle for a rapist) -- and act differently, doesn't make you a different person. He still had all of the same memories and experiences.

Ken C

TJuk
December 6th, 2006, 01:39 PM
Playing devil's advocate here... I have to say using 'The Nutty Professor' is a very bad example. They're not comparible. Eddie's character takes a potion to alter himself, NOT others or their minds. His new 'thin' figure gives him the self esteem and confidence boost to go try and win the ladies heart the old fashioned way. He does not give a women mind altering drugs to alter their perception. More importantly the women do not UNVOLUNTARILY loose their free will. We all do idiotic things when drunk, but then we drink by choice, the results are our own damn fault. But the pheoramone Luscius uses takes away his victims FREE will and therefore their CHOICE, (the important word here). He drugs them into submission be it to do his bidding. That by all definations, if it leads to sex, is rape. Its all about the right to choose dude!

Dont get me wrong I enjoyed 'Irresistable'...Irresponsible SUCKED but the former was rather funny in places. I took it on surface value and didn't think about the darker sexual implications on first viewing. I just enjoyed watching the cast get to play basically a different 'character'. On reflection I can totally and utterly see how others would interupt it that way and see how they might be offended because the writing foolishly (college humour style...playing with fire!) plants such 'sexual' suggestions...in hindsight that maybe not a wise move. On the flip side I know people who have been raped, watched the ep and chose not to see it that way, just took it at surface value. So its down to personal interuptation.

Take it as a lesson learned! The writers may not have intended it that way, but thats how it unfortunately came across to some...not all.

PG15
December 6th, 2006, 01:40 PM
I sense a fundamental difference here, and it's actually related to this essay I wrote only a week ago.

There seems to be 2 factions here. One, like me, who thinks that attraction, love, and all that other stuff, are basically chemical reactions within the brain that happens in response to outside chemical precursors (colognes, pheromones, etc).

And then there are the others, who believe that emotions are not physical, but more like a soul, an intangible thing, and who we like or don't like are based on our own choices, and not dictated by Chemistry (literal chemistry). I can definately see why this second group would see rape while the first group (like me) just sees someone who's smart enough to trump up his own pheromone production.

It's fascinating...[PG-snipped]

ShadowMaat
December 6th, 2006, 01:45 PM
Just as a random aside, Ken, is being a masochist a requirement for being on the Stargate staff? ;) Between you and Joe and Martin G and some of the others, you all seem like gluttons for punishment when it comes to dealing with the fans. http://www.freethought-forum.com/forum/images/smilies/innocent.gif

Jersey13
December 6th, 2006, 01:48 PM
Ken, this place is so easy to use as an excuse to procrastinate on your work, it's not even funny. :D

Personally, I think all the people who are crying rape are overreacting. Yeah, so it turned out that the guy was a real SoB in 'Irrisistible'. Yes, I think he raped those women, too. But so what? As much as they try to reflect real life in a TV show like this, I see no reason to get upset at the fact that Lucius was a rapist. Maybe upset at the fact that the team didn't seem to hate him too much for what he did to them, but as charming as the writers may have wanted to make him seem, Lucius was a villian, after all.

Yeah, I'm unhappy at the inconsistencies with the shield device. Yeah, I'm unhappy about how Kolya ended up going out. Yeah, I think Teyla should've voiced her hero, too.

And yes, I think if I was on Atlantis and had been affected by Lucius' drug during 'Irrisistible', I think I would've been a lot angrier about it than everybody else seemed to be about it, too. But what other alternate ending they could've created for the end of 'Irrisistible', I don't know. It seemed a logical ending to me, except that it didn't really deal with the emotional fallout of such an experience. What's to be unhappy about?

But c'mon... Why are you guys hating the writers about the rapist they created? Lucius was a plot device, and how anybody can construe that the writers don't respect women simply because they created this character is beyond me. If I wrote a story about a charming character that turned out to be a rapist, I'd hope that my readers wouldn't point at me and call me a anti-feminist or something. *scratches head*

jenks
December 6th, 2006, 01:51 PM
Exactly, maybe you have another definition of rape, but using a herb to sleep with a woman against their will, when you clearly know they wouldn't touch you with a ten foot pole if they were in their right mind sounds like rape to me.


It clearly wasn't against her will though was it?

*edit*

After a look on google, there are actually products that you can buy that promise to influence women and make you more attractive, surely they'd be illegal if what you describe is rape.

Sheppard's Delight
December 6th, 2006, 01:51 PM
I'm BACK! (Can you tell I don't feel like doing my work today?)

This is a perfect example of forming an opinion about something you don't have all the info on.

When Joseph wrote this episode -- he was in the office across from me -- I overheard him asking the actors who THEY thought their in-show heroes should be. It was Joe Flannigan himself who chose Evil Knievel. And Joseph worked it into the script. afterwords.

Ken

Yes and the picture on the side table in Sheps bedroom in conversion is little Joe Flanigan and Evil Knievel which proves it was Joe's true hero when he was a young boy!!!

lord-anubis
December 6th, 2006, 01:58 PM
hey i just saw the end and the shield shouldent have work on shepp right? dident they say in hide and seek that it inprints the the user and they would be the only ones who could use it

ken_is_here
December 6th, 2006, 02:03 PM
Playing devil's advocate here... I have to say using 'The Nutty Professor' is a very bad example. They're not comparible. Eddie's character takes a potion to alter himself, NOT others or their minds. His new 'thin' figure gives him the self esteem and confidence boost to go try and win the ladies heart the old fashioned way. He does not give a women mind altering drugs to alter their perception. More importantly the women do not UNVOLUNTARILY loose their free will. We all do idiotic things when drunk, but then we drink by choice, the results are our own damn fault. But the pheoramone Luscius uses takes away his victims FREE will and therefore their CHOICE, (the important word here). He drugs them into submission be it to do his bidding. That by all definations, if it leads to sex, is rape. Its all about the right to choose dude!

Dont get me wrong I enjoyed 'Irresistable'. I took it on surface value and didn't think about the darker sexual implications on first viewing. I just enjoyed watching the cast get to play basically a different 'character'. On reflection I can totally and utterly see how others would interupt it that way and see how they might be offended because the writing foolishly and blatantly (college humour style...playing with fire!) plants such 'sexual' suggestions...in hindsight that was not a wise move. On the flip side I know people who have been raped, watched the ep and chose not to see if that way, just took it at surface value. So its down to personal interuptation and I think by the content people have a right to be offended.

Take it as a lesson learned! The writers may not have intended it that way, but thats how it came across.

Now see, this six of one, a half dozen of the other.

The nutty prefosser (a guy who women LOATH) takes a potion that changes him into the form that a women LOVE. Tell me this. If he had transformed back -- during the intimate act -- do you feel like the woman would go "Oh, that's cool, no worries" or do you think they would freak out and probably call the police and charge him?

This is exactly what Lucious does. He takes a formula (He does NOT as you say "Give a woman mind altering drugs."") that makes him appear as a charming sexy guy. The woman is not foggy and drug addled, unconcious or drunk -- she is just seeing things from a diferent perspective.

What is free will exactly? People who buy cigarettes and smoke are doing it out of free will right? Or are they the victims of peer preesure, advertising and addictive substances? This is no more a grey area than our Lucious -- and the difference is that Lucious is a BAD GUY.

See, what I am getting here is that those fans who dislike the episode are of the mind that no one should enjoy it, because to do so would be to condone rape. Yet, I enjoy Mel Brooks in Spaceballs (30+ times and counting) and I certainly don't condone dictatorship, genicide, and environmental destruction.

If you don't like the comedy episodes of Stargate, hey, that's cool -- I won't try to change your mind -- but why try to ruin the fun for those that do, by over-analysing the character and trying to apply "real-world" concetes to classic sci-fi story devices (such as the Love potion).

And that's one to grow on.

Ken

Luz
December 6th, 2006, 02:06 PM
This is the episode discussion thread, not the "you can only talk about the episode if you totally loved it, and won't say a negative thing" thread.

Jersey13
December 6th, 2006, 02:09 PM
I think we're arguing over a moot point here. I don't think the issue is really whether or not Lucius is a rapist, but whether or not the writers really wanted us to like him before it was made clear to us that he was a really immoral person. It seems wrong to want to like a rapist, and it seems wrong to want to make us think he's funny. But I don't blame the writers of the episode for making me feel that way.

I rather like the fact that he's so two-faced, and I respect that the writers of the episode were able to blur the lines of morality in such a way as to make this such a heated debate. No reason to get angry... we're having a wonderful discussion. :)

Callie
December 6th, 2006, 02:09 PM
If anyone fancies torturing themselves, there's a transcript of this episode here:

http://www.brundle.free-online.co.uk/Transcript_Index.html

Hey, I had to watch the darned thing three times - why should I suffer alone? ;-)

ShoDar
December 6th, 2006, 02:13 PM
If you don't like the comedy episodes of Stargate, hey, that's cool -- I won't try to change your mind -- but why try to ruin the fun for those that do, by over-analysing the character and trying to apply "real-world" concetes to classic sci-fi story devices (such as the Love potion).

And that's one to grow on.

Ken

See, the problem I had with Lucius going back to pure comedy buffoon type in Irresponsible is that he was sinister and creepy in Irresistable regardless of how you percieve the drug issue itself. Granted part of it comes from the delivery by Richard Kind so maybe the writers hadn't quite intended it to be that way, but I dare anybody to watch the scene in Irresistable where Lucius talks to John in the brig/cell and tell me that Lucius isn't more malicious than the humour aspect implied. That scene was pretty dark and is probably part of what lead to people applying more sinister motives to what was intended as humour and fantasy.

ken_is_here
December 6th, 2006, 02:13 PM
This is the episode discussion thread, not the "you can only talk about the episode if you totally loved it, and won't say a negative thing" thread.

Not sure who this is directed at...but Ill assume me.

I think everyone should have an opinion -- positive or negative -- it's all good. However, when you try to convince others that your opinion is the right one, that is where it gets dicey. You didn't like it. You made that clear. And I respect that.

(There was a lot I didn't like about the final product as well, truth be told)

Ken

Iratus
December 6th, 2006, 02:15 PM
hey i just saw the end and the shield shouldent have work on shepp right? dident they say in hide and seek that it inprints the the user and they would be the only ones who could use it

Yeah i was thinking about that too, and Lucius also points out that he got someone that had the ancient gene to activate it for him so thats 3 people that have used it.

lissa1000
December 6th, 2006, 02:18 PM
This is exactly what Lucious does. He takes a formula (He does NOT as you say "Give a woman mind altering drugs."") that makes him appear as a charming sexy guy. The woman is not foggy and drug addled, unconcious or drunk -- she is just seeing things from a diferent perspective.
Ken

I think that argument would've worked better if he hadn't gotten all six of them to sleep with him at the same time. Believe me, no one is attractive enough to make me do that.

I think y'all should've just said that Lucius didn't come off the way you had intended and leave it at that. I get the feeling you're just digging a bigger hole for yourself.

sgeureka
December 6th, 2006, 02:19 PM
This is the episode discussion thread, not the "you can only talk about the episode if you totally loved it, and won't say a negative thing" thread.Thanks that you said it. I was afraid you wouldn't agree with me because...

...May I remind everyone that this is the Irresponsible episode discussion thread and not the one for Irresistible? Lucius did not rape anyone in this episode. Maybe the Irresistible thread (http://forum.gateworld.net/showthread.php?t=30972) is more appropriate? ;)

(I'm just saying. The rape discussion went on and on there and no-one ever agreed [other than to disagree]. At least it was on-topic there. :cool: )

FoolishPleasure
December 6th, 2006, 02:26 PM
Now see, this six of one, a half dozen of the other.

The nutty prefosser (a guy who women LOATH) takes a potion that changes him into the form that a women LOVE. Tell me this. If he had transformed back -- during the intimate act -- do you feel like the woman would go "Oh, that's cool, no worries" or do you think they would freak out and probably call the police and charge him?
The "Nutty Professor" had a moral to it. Ultimately he couldn't get the woman he truly loved. He had to be "himself". There was no moral to Lucius. He had no shame. He paid no price for what he did.


This is exactly what Lucious does. He takes a formula (He does NOT as you say "Give a woman mind altering drugs."") that makes him appear as a charming sexy guy. The woman is not foggy and drug addled, unconcious or drunk -- she is just seeing things from a diferent perspective.
Sorry. You are wrong. A big deal was made in "Irresistible" of the villagers suffering withdrawal when Lucius left the village. There were also scenes of Sheppard removing Beckett from Atlantis for "rehab". Those people were DRUG induced by the pheromones coming off of slob-man.


If you don't like the comedy episodes of Stargate, hey, that's cool -- I won't try to change your mind -- but why try to ruin the fun for those that do, by over-analysing the character and trying to apply "real-world" concetes to classic sci-fi story devices (such as the Love potion).
I normally enjoy the comedy episodes - Wormhole Extreme, Window of Opportunity, etc. But, as I posted before, there needs to be a balance. WoO especially had a wonderful balance of comedy and tragedy. Both these "Lucius" episodes had funny individual scenes, but overall came across as just mean-spirited. If the SGA writers can come up with humorous episodes that are fun, loveable, have a moral to the story perhaps, then it works, but jumbling a series of potty-humor comedy scenes together just comes across as middle school humor (I should know - I have an 8th grade boy, and even he thinks Lucius is disgusting). :)

TJuk
December 6th, 2006, 02:27 PM
Now see, this six of one, a half dozen of the other.

The nutty prefosser (a guy who women LOATH) takes a potion that changes him into the form that a women LOVE. Tell me this. If he had transformed back -- during the intimate act -- do you feel like the woman would go "Oh, that's cool, no worries" or do you think they would freak out and probably call the police and charge him?

This is exactly what Lucious does. He takes a formula (He does NOT as you say "Give a woman mind altering drugs."") that makes him appear as a charming sexy guy. The woman is not foggy and drug addled, unconcious or drunk -- she is just seeing things from a diferent perspective.

What is free will exactly? People who buy cigarettes and smoke are doing it out of free will right? Or are they the victims of peer preesure, advertising and addictive substances? This is no more a grey area than our Lucious -- and the difference is that Lucious is a BAD GUY.

See, what I am getting here is that those fans who dislike the episode are of the mind that no one should enjoy it, because to do so would be to condone rape. Yet, I enjoy Mel Brooks in Spaceballs (30+ times and counting) and I certainly don't condone dictatorship, genicide, and environmental destruction.

If you don't like the comedy episodes of Stargate, hey, that's cool -- I won't try to change your mind -- but why try to ruin the fun for those that do, by over-analysing the character and trying to apply "real-world" concetes to classic sci-fi story devices (such as the Love potion).

And that's one to grow on.

Ken

Wooahhh....you're helping me procrastinate here now too, I really should be editing or I'll be at work all bloody night but...well what the hell.

Nutty Professor. he doesn't make them love him, he makes himself more 'attactive' (in a shallow sense). But the message (I INTERUPTED) was appearence doesn't matter, love yourself and others will love you too...personality I guess. He alters himself and learns a lesson, and the girl falls for the fat guy in the end, cos he learnt the whole 'love thyself' lesson...awww how wholesome! As for the 'changing in the middle of the act', well I guess its like hitting on a guy you think has a big package and it turns out to be a sock, or for the guys, girls with big assets but its really those plastic thingies. They've enhanced their appearence to add to their attraction, but they've not given the other person funky chemicals to make them THINK they see a big package or bigger boobies and more importantly, to make them want to shag and do anything they ask no matter how they would think sober. Remember Carson goes to a Wriath planet and does things he wouldn't normal do. Nothing to do with sex or attraction but he's lost he's free will, his ability to say NO because he's been drugged into submission tho given, because he's in adoration of Luscius (in a completely platonic fashion DOWN SLASHERS DOWN!!). That alone shows the drug isn't just about enhancing attraction, its also a method of control.

As for him changing mid-shag. Well I'm sure theres plenty of people who've had a wolf date and suffered the consquences of beer goggles and wondered WTF they were drinking the previous night (oh the joys of university). But you dont go get the bar keep arrested because YOU choose the drink at said bar and you ended up shagging someone you wouldn't sober. If someone slips you something in your drink (been there too, fortunately not raped but the 3 day hangover SUCKED!) and used THAT to get you in bed. Well you didn't ask them to put it in the drink, they're using it as a method of control to lead to the nasty... Choice dude...its all about the right to CHOOSE!

As for comedy eps. Well ya know this is a discussion thread so we can dissect and *****! I'd say it was a good feedback forum to come take notes! Ugly fat guys using love potion to shag busty 'random village women' NO. Shep punching comedy crying Beckett...MORE PLEASE!

Praetorian
December 6th, 2006, 02:27 PM
Im just glad Shep shot Kolya. That guy got on my nerves...

ShadowMaat
December 6th, 2006, 02:28 PM
I think part of the issue- for me, anyway- is the lack of balance between the dark elements and the sillier moments. It's a very tricky thing to get right and if you're going to attempt it you should be damn sure you know what you're doing or you risk making your dark elements look silly... and when that happens it can sometimes look as if you're deliberately making light of something awful. Spaceballs worked (more or less) because it didn't take itself seriously and the various elements were heavily camped up. But Atlantis still tries to take itself seriously even when the elements are presented in a campy manner, hence the mess that is Lucius. Again, just my opinion here. I think Lucius might have worked better as a genuinely dark character in a serious atmosphere instead of this laughable cad doing genuinely terrible things.

jenks
December 6th, 2006, 02:29 PM
Sorry. You are wrong. A big deal was made in "Irresistible" of the villagers suffering withdrawal when Lucius left the village. There were also scenes of Sheppard removing Beckett from Atlantis for "rehab". Those people were DRUG induced by the pheromones coming off of slob-man.



You can suffer withdrawal symptoms from McDonalds, doesn't mean a big mac is a drug...

WannaBeAWhumper
December 6th, 2006, 02:31 PM
*rolls eyes at whole rape debate*

What does it matter whether what Lucius did was technically rape or not? What he did was wrong, bad, evil. But he was a VILLAIN, for heaven's sake--even if he was a villain hiding under a thin layer of cheesy comedy. He was supposed to be evil! By definition, bad guys do bad things.

Why is it that no one had a problem with villains who tortured people, murdered people, overthrew governments in violent coups...but this one villain whose crime happened to be taking advantage of women sets off a firestorm?

If someone wants to be mad, maybe they should be mad at the viewers who didn't see past the "funny" layer to the real evil within, not the writers who simply tried to write a different kind of villain for a change (which I personally appreciate -- haven't we complained in other threads about too many episodes being the same all the time?)

WB

TJuk
December 6th, 2006, 02:33 PM
Oh oh! I forgot. Testing personal shield by having small boy kicking you in the nads...now THAT was funny.

EDIT: And I'm discussing the whole 'rape/no rape' issue because its an interesting discussion if down objectively. Didn't mean to diss you (Ken C) on the whole comedy eps of SG. Window of Opportunity, though I'm a drama fan at heart is my ALL time fav ep of SG1. As others have said, its the careful balance of light and dark...helped by not using a controversial issue! ;)

PG15
December 6th, 2006, 02:36 PM
Oh oh! I forgot. Testing personal shield by having small boy kicking you in the nads...now THAT was funny.

It was, wasn't it? I laughed my a** off during that scene. :D The way the boy just keep kicking and kicking and Lucius is just standing there laughing and talking.

(You are being serious, right? Not sarcastic?)

lord-anubis
December 6th, 2006, 02:38 PM
It was, wasn't it? I laughed my a** off during that scene. :D The way the boy just keep kicking and kicking and Lucius is just standing there laughing and talking.

(You are being serious, right? Not sarcastic?)

that was a good scene the one at the end is better when he ask the boy to kick him again when he doesnt know the shield is out

The Ori
December 6th, 2006, 02:39 PM
{Mod Snip} Interesting but hopefully the rest of the season isn't like this!!

ken_is_here
December 6th, 2006, 02:41 PM
You can suffer withdrawal symptoms from McDonalds, doesn't mean a big mac is a drug...

A better example is coffee. I get a headache if I don't get my first cup in the morning.

TJuk
December 6th, 2006, 02:43 PM
It was, wasn't it? I laughed my a** off during that scene. :D The way the boy just keep kicking and kicking and Lucius is just standing there laughing and talking.

(You are being serious, right? Not sarcastic?)

Nah! Totally not sarcastic. I try not to take these ep discussions too seriously. As a good discussion and put some thought into posts yeah. I think you've got to try to be objective and see the good and the bad here, otherwise its not a constructive opinion/arguement.

And the bit at the end was cool too! Just the repeated nads shots...priceless. Carson being all tough AND yet so sensitive, love it..MORE PLEASE! Though as I said, suspect thats something as a setup for whatever happens in 'Sunday' or 'Vengence' or whatever...dont even get me started on THAT issue!!!!!

ozchick
December 6th, 2006, 02:56 PM
Can we call "do over" for this ep?

ToasterOnFire
December 6th, 2006, 02:57 PM
Combo!



What a bunch of morons.
I agree, and I was hoping that the team would have left the townspeople to their own devices once they defended Lucius over the team and the confessing villain.



I'm BACK! (Can you tell I don't feel like doing my work today?)
:P


This is a perfect example of forming an opinion about something you don't have all the info on.
Yes, since I am not a PTB that would be true of all my opinions. True for every fan here and fans of every show for that matter.


When Joseph wrote this episode -- he was in the office across from me -- I overheard him asking the actors who THEY thought their in-show heroes should be. It was Joe Flannigan himself who chose Evil Knievel. And Joseph worked it into the script. afterwords.
It's good to hear that the actors are involved with their characters. :) However, my point was not that the heroes chosen were out of character and not what the actors would have chosen for their character, but more that they were so in character that it felt stereotyped.



After a look on google, there are actually products that you can buy that promise to influence women and make you more attractive, surely they'd be illegal if what you describe is rape.
Do those actually work by taking away a woman's ability to give consent though? There are tons of "herbal supplements" out there with the tiny "This drug has not been approved by the FDA" text in their commercials. That means they have not been put through rigorous scientific testing and very likely are ineffective.


And coffee has caffeine, which is a drug...

psychofilly
December 6th, 2006, 02:59 PM
It wasn't an "explanation." It was just my opinion. We all have them. What I see as a great script, others might not.

I'd like to reply to this, if I may. And I'd also like to say that you are very brave to wade in here with us fans.


As for the idea of rape...just to be clear (again, this is only how I see it...right or wrong) Lucious wasn't drugging these woman -- he was taking a phermone that made him come across as sexy. Are we doing any less when we slap on cologne for a night out (well...I don't wear cologne, but...) or put on make up (Don't do that either) to make ourselves as desirable as possible? Lucious found a way to kick it up to 11 -- and which one of you could say you wouldn't do the same thing if you had that ability. Giving someone else a drug is one thing -- but altering the way others see you is another.

For the sake of argument, if rohipnol was a drug that you took to cloud the judgement of other people and then slept with them, would it then not be a rape? Lucius, did not just take something to make him appear sexy to to other people. It seriously compromised the judgement of those people. They could have easily given away the position of Atlantis-- Carson did, actually. He Teyla and Ronon also went on a dangerous raid to secure more of the herb. And while the image of Ronon standing at the gate clutching a bag of "herb" was priceless, the underlying thing being done to him was not.

Ronon also physically threatened Rodney. Weir was talking about marriage (because Lucius is "honerable" that way, I guess). Thank god Lucius didn't practice sex before marriage because damn, in Weir's (or Teyla's or Cadman's or Miko's or Heightmeiyer's) diminished capacity, that would have been rape. The village wives Lucius took were raped. There honestly is no way to justify or talk around that in my opinion, and to be honest, it showed a lack of sensitivity to the audience, a percentage of which have been raped or molested at some point in their lives. (and I'm not speaking for all people, but it damn sure made me uncomfortable in places)

ETA: I must not have read far enough into the thread to see some of your other responses, but I really have a hard time with the idea that the drug "just made Lucius seem like a sexy guy" argument because as mentioned several people did dangerous and stupid things because Lucius told them to. That plays as diminished capacity to me.



(I'm not saying it is acceptable..I'm just saying this is his justification.) The other thing here is that Lucious is not a good guy...he's essentially a villain. But our team has no jurisdiction to punish him. At the end of Irrisistable they turn him over to the mercy of his fellow villagers (who are no longer under the influence)...to be punished. He is then exiled as punishment. The idea here is to have a guy who comes across as likable and harmless -- but show that he has a dark side as well. If he doesn't get what he wants...he will take it. He is actually very smart and conniving. (He took time to read much of Atlantis' database - when he could have been partying it up)

I understand that, but his justifications were never the point. It was the lighthearted way the issue was handled. Lucius is a small man that found a way to live big. His absolute power corrupted him and made him do some pretty damned awful things. That should have been given the weight it deserved in both Irresistable and Irresponsible. In my mind, Lucius is just as bad of a villian as Kolya, just wrapped in a much more inoccuous package, and a mourn the fact that this wasn't exploited in this episode.

That said, I didn't mind the ending of Irreisistable so much, even though I thought it was pretty boneheaded to let Lucius go anywhere but the brig. (We are keeping Atlantis a secret still, right? Lucius now knows way too much about us for our comfort, but lets send him back anyway!) Emotionally, it was satisfying, because it's implied that the villagers where he did the most damage will decide his punsihment. At the time, I could totally live with that.




Now he is trying to start over - But he is still Lucious so he can't do that without having something that makes him special. He can't function without being the centre of attention. So he finds a way to be a hero to his people. he was inspired by Sheppard to be a real hero -- but unlike Sheppard he doesn't know what it means to be a hero. Yes, he is cheating...because he's scared to death of being lost in the crowd. Does that make him unlikable? Sure...why not. He's doing more harm than good to his people... but he's not trying to hurt them (he really thinks he is their protector) he's just terrified of going back to being a normal shlub who had no friends.

This reminds me of the rehabilitation of Mayborne. He was one slick, nasty, smart villian, and in his case, I honestly liked him better as a villian. There were moments in Irrisistable that touched on the evil inside of Lucius. When he threatened John, it was a seriously creepy moment. I felt like, in that scene, Lucius was capable of anything. I honestly didn't want an easy or happy ending. I wanted to see the show push that edge. I wanted some consequences, and acknowledgement that the people of Atlantis had dodged a bullet. NOT everyone just shaking it off and John making light while Rodney gives him a bit of comuppance. I wanted the show to go darker. And while I'm not looking for the angst fest of a show like BSG, which I also love, an intelligent exploration of the issue under all the comedy, would have been great.


Again...this is just how I see it.

I totally respect your opinion, and I understand the difficulties of bringing a script to the screen. It's always sounded like movie and TV making is mostly a series of comprimises and things get lost in translation.

There were a lot of good small moments in both episodes. I loved many of the character moments. I just can't get excited about Lucius, and the tech issues did bug. I simply thought that Lucius was turning his sheild off to eat, but John defintiely should not have been able to wear it, or Lucius for that matter if someone else initialized it. The lynchpin of one episode, really shouldn't be hand waved away in another without explanation and since an entire episode was done about the personal sheild and its limits... it did kind of seem like poor continuity. Of course the Stargates are not the only show that does this, and I really do wonder why there isn't a continuity handbook or something made for sci-techy TV shows.

Anyway, that's my two cents. SGA is a show I enjoy immensely despite any flaws. And we really wouldn't pick at it so much if we didn't love it to death.



*rolls eyes at whole rape debate*

Why is it that no one had a problem with villains who tortured people, murdered people, overthrew governments in violent coups...but this one villain whose crime happened to be taking advantage of women sets off a firestorm?

If someone wants to be mad, maybe they should be mad at the viewers who didn't see past the "funny" layer to the real evil within, not the writers who simply tried to write a different kind of villain for a change (which I personally appreciate -- haven't we complained in other threads about two many episodes being the same all the time?)

WB

The issue for me is not whether Lucius is a villian or not, nor even the type of villian. It's the fact that his villiany was hand waved away at the end and the gravity of the fact that he's really a pretty darn evil dude was played for a laugh. My problem is that it felt like the writers were not looking past the funny and seeing the real evil within.

Luz
December 6th, 2006, 03:00 PM
Can we call "do over" for this ep?

I would be happy to pretend it didn't happen, and if they brought Kolya back for a real episode I would readily accept this one as a crack induced hallucination. :D

SGAFan
December 6th, 2006, 03:11 PM
Not sure who this is directed at...but Ill assume me.

I think everyone should have an opinion -- positive or negative -- it's all good. However, when you try to convince others that your opinion is the right one, that is where it gets dicey. You didn't like it. You made that clear. And I respect that.

(There was a lot I didn't like about the final product as well, truth be told)

Ken

*looks around for co-workers then keeps typing*

Careful, Ken, this place is addicting. ;)

and as a side note, no one wants to be near me if I don't get my coffee....:samanime15:

NowIWillDestroyAbydos
December 6th, 2006, 03:12 PM
I just finished watching the episode, it was pretty good, better than "Irresistible." I'm sad Kolya got killed off, however, I also happy Kolya got killed off because Shep was going to get him eventually. I give it a ***

I really hope Richard Kind returns next season, Lucius Lavin is a very interesting character.

Compared to the front 10 of Season 3, the back 10 aren't as good, but I have hope that the back 10 will be as good as the front 10.

Stef
December 6th, 2006, 03:15 PM
So, being in the minority of fans who actually LIKED "Irresistable" I went into this episode with at least some positive feelings (altough I in no way felt the need to bring back the Lucius character). I think the episode was ok but unmemorable. For me, there are no SGA episodes that I really hate, just ones I'd never really feel the need to watch again...this is one of those episodes.

Like many of you have pointed out, the whole Kolya thing seemed out of place. The story would have been okay enough if it had just been the Genii mercanaries coming back for revenge and the team having to fight them off. The showdown between Sheppard and Kolya should have been epic....but this seemed as if it was just any old one-episode villain rather than a 3-season nemesis. It was disappointing to see Kolya go in the way he did, and rather anti-climactic.

Unlike "Irresistable," there weren't a whole lot of laughs here for me...although I did love Rodney's defense of Batman :) This was definitely one of the worst episodes in probably the best season yet for the show...but it was not the most disappointing (afterall, my expectations were minimal). I'd probably give it a 6/10.

-Stef

WannaBeAWhumper
December 6th, 2006, 03:19 PM
The village wives Lucius took were raped. There honestly is no way to justify or talk around that in my opinion, and to be honest, it showed a lack of sensitivity to the audience, a percentage of which have been raped or molested at some point in their lives.




Given your screen name, I'd say that was a well thought out and reasoned reply. I appreciate that! And ditto what you said about Ken C. being brave to wade into the fray.

One counterpoint I'd like to make to your argument above...even if everyone was convinced and believed that what Lucius did was rape...there are also people around the world who've been viciously beaten, who've had loved ones murdered, who've been tortured by corrupt governments, who've been life-sucked by green aliens (just kidding)...

Does this mean that we can't have any of these in the show either, because it would be insensitive to those people's suffering? That would mean we could never have a villain, because it would offend someone, somewhere in the world.

I go back to my earlier post...what Lucius did was evil...but villains are supposed to be evil. Give the writers credit for at least trying to create an original villain, who hides beneath a veneer of comedy.

They took a risk trying to do something a little different. Maybe it worked, maybe it didn't. But at least they tried. And as a result of the viewer feedback, maybe we'll get lucky and they won't try that particular approach again. Please. :D

WB

Alipeeps
December 6th, 2006, 03:19 PM
I'm BACK! (Can you tell I don't feel like doing my work today?)

Welcome to the world of procrastination that is GateWorld! :lol:



When Joseph wrote this episode -- he was in the office across from me -- I overheard him asking the actors who THEY thought their in-show heroes should be. It was Joe Flannigan himself who chose Evil Knievel. And Joseph worked it into the script. afterwords.

Ken


Yes and the picture on the side table in Sheps bedroom in conversion is little Joe Flanigan and Evil Knievel which proves it was Joe's true hero when he was a young boy!!!

Yeah, I remembered this also as soon as Sheppard mentioned Evil Knieval - I think it was in the commentary for Conversion that Joe said that the photo in Sheppard's room was of himself as a child with Evil Knieval and that's he'd been Joe's childhood hero. I thought it was cool that the ep pulled that through into Sheppard's character. :D


Just as a random aside, Ken, is being a masochist a requirement for being on the Stargate staff? ;) Between you and Joe and Martin G and some of the others, you all seem like gluttons for punishment when it comes to dealing with the fans. http://www.freethought-forum.com/forum/images/smilies/innocent.gif

Can I ask, in all seriousness, why you say that? What has Joe or Martin done that makes you think they are a glutton for punishment when dealing with fans?


I enjoy Mel Brooks in Spaceballs (30+ times and counting) and I certainly don't condone dictatorship, genicide, and environmental destruction.

Heh. I love it. :D



If you don't like the comedy episodes of Stargate, hey, that's cool -- I won't try to change your mind -- but why try to ruin the fun for those that do, by over-analysing the character and trying to apply "real-world" concetes to classic sci-fi story devices (such as the Love potion).

And that's one to grow on.

Ken

Yeah, that's pretty much my feeling too. It's one thing to discuss your opinion of the ep but this post - and the Irresistable one - seems to sometimes waver across that line into suggesting that one opinion is the only right one and that anyone who disagrees is.. well..

P.S. Hey Ken, you realise you've gone from like 7 posts to 25 in the space of about 30 hours? That's it.. you're a GW addict now... kiss your productivity goodbye and accept that you will henceforth waste most of your working hours in deep philisophical discussion on here! :D ;)

PG15
December 6th, 2006, 03:47 PM
That's it.. you're a GW addict now... kiss your productivity goodbye and accept that you will henceforth waste most of your working hours in deep philisophical discussion on here! :D ;)

NOT that there is anything wrong with that. :D ;)

Alipeeps
December 6th, 2006, 03:51 PM
NOT that there is anything wrong with that. :D ;)

Nononooooo... perfectly normal, acceptable behaviour..... :D Though it would be something of a shame for the world if we didn't get to enjoy any more of Mr Cuperus' very fine writing because he's spending all day mucking about on GW like the rest of us! :lol:

caty
December 6th, 2006, 03:57 PM
See, what I am getting here is that those fans who dislike the episode are of the mind that no one should enjoy it, because to do so would be to condone rape. Yet, I enjoy Mel Brooks in Spaceballs (30+ times and counting) and I certainly don't condone dictatorship, genicide, and environmental destruction.

If you don't like the comedy episodes of Stargate, hey, that's cool -- I won't try to change your mind -- but why try to ruin the fun for those that do, by over-analysing the character and trying to apply "real-world" concetes to classic sci-fi story devices (such as the Love potion).

And that's one to grow on.

Ken
Thanks for that, Ken...
Over-analyzers is the word to describe many people, especially here at Gateworld (now before I get yelled at, I am not hinted at anybody or any group in particular and I'm not even saying it's a bad thing. I over-analyzie things sometimes, too..
My point is that over-analyzing the episodes takes away the entertainment part and that's what it's supposed to be - entertainment.
Anyway, I have said this a million times and I am aware of the fact that others may have a different opinion on it, so that's fine :)

I have to say that I was among the people who didn't even remotely think that Irresistable hinted at any kind of rape and still I got the impression that some people who did see rape in this ep were implying we were close-minded or even doing something worse. That attitude really shocked me back then and I don't go to the episode-threads anymore ever since (now being an exception, obviously).. It is just too much negativity and over-analyzing with most of the eps for me..

BTW: I quite liked Irresponsible. Could certainly have been better, but there were some great moments and great acting!
Kolya should have been dealt with in another ep, though.



It's good to hear that the actors are involved with their characters. :) However, my point was not that the heroes chosen were out of character and not what the actors would have chosen for their character, but more that they were so in character that it felt stereotyped.



Something that just came to me: I think stereotype is OK if it involves childhood heroes. People have to be stereotypical sometimes, otherwise there wouldn't be a stereotype...
But remember Sheppard quoting something from 'The Princess Bride' in "Return Part I"? Pretty anti-stereotypical :D

SGAFan
December 6th, 2006, 03:58 PM
P.S. Hey Ken, you realise you've gone from like 7 posts to 25 in the space of about 30 hours? That's it.. you're a GW addict now... kiss your productivity goodbye and accept that you will henceforth waste most of your working hours in deep philisophical discussion on here! :D ;)

*whistles innocently* What? *G*

Thats it Ken. you're addicted. *G*

and can I just compltely agree with the sentiment that everyone is entitled to their opinions? As long as it's done in a relatively friendly manner

*hates flame wars..* ;)

Trialia
December 6th, 2006, 03:58 PM
I'd like to reply to this, if I may. And I'd also like to say that you are very brave to wade in here with us fans.

For the sake of argument, if rohipnol was a drug that you took to cloud the judgement of other people and then slept with them, would it then not be a rape? Lucius, did not just take something to make him appear sexy to to other people. It seriously compromised the judgement of those people. They could have easily given away the position of Atlantis-- Carson did, actually. He Teyla and Ronon also went on a dangerous raid to secure more of the herb. And while the image of Ronon standing at the gate clutching a bag of "herb" was priceless, the underlying thing being done to him was not.

Ronon also physically threatened Rodney. Weir was talking about marriage (because Lucius is "honerable" that way, I guess). Thank god Lucius didn't practice sex before marriage because damn, in Weir's (or Teyla's or Cadman's or Miko's or Heightmeiyer's) diminished capacity, that would have been rape. The village wives Lucius took were raped. There honestly is no way to justify or talk around that in my opinion, and to be honest, it showed a lack of sensitivity to the audience, a percentage of which have been raped or molested at some point in their lives. (and I'm not speaking for all people, but it damn sure made me uncomfortable in places)

ETA: I must not have read far enough into the thread to see some of your other responses, but I really have a hard time with the idea that the drug "just made Lucius seem like a sexy guy" argument because as mentioned several people did dangerous and stupid things because Lucius told them to. That plays as diminished capacity to me.

I understand that, but his justifications were never the point. It was the lighthearted way the issue was handled. Lucius is a small man that found a way to live big. His absolute power corrupted him and made him do some pretty damned awful things. That should have been given the weight it deserved in both Irresistable and Irresponsible. In my mind, Lucius is just as bad of a villian as Kolya, just wrapped in a much more inoccuous package, and a mourn the fact that this wasn't exploited in this episode.

This reminds me of the rehabilitation of Mayborne. He was one slick, nasty, smart villian, and in his case, I honestly liked him better as a villian. There were moments in Irrisistable that touched on the evil inside of Lucius. When he threatened John, it was a seriously creepy moment. I felt like, in that scene, Lucius was capable of anything. I honestly didn't want an easy or happy ending. I wanted to see the show push that edge. I wanted some consequences, and acknowledgement that the people of Atlantis had dodged a bullet. NOT everyone just shaking it off and John making light while Rodney gives him a bit of comuppance. I wanted the show to go darker. And while I'm not looking for the angst fest of a show like BSG, which I also love, an intelligent exploration of the issue under all the comedy, would have been great.

I totally respect your opinion, and I understand the difficulties of bringing a script to the screen. It's always sounded like movie and TV making is mostly a series of comprimises and things get lost in translation.

There were a lot of good small moments in both episodes. I loved many of the character moments. I just can't get excited about Lucius, and the tech issues did bug. I simply thought that Lucius was turning his sheild off to eat, but John defintiely should not have been able to wear it, or Lucius for that matter if someone else initialized it. The lynchpin of one episode, really shouldn't be hand waved away in another without explanation and since an entire episode was done about the personal sheild and its limits... it did kind of seem like poor continuity. Of course the Stargates are not the only show that does this, and I really do wonder why there isn't a continuity handbook or something made for sci-techy TV shows.

Anyway, that's my two cents. SGA is a show I enjoy immensely despite any flaws. And we really wouldn't pick at it so much if we didn't love it to death.

The issue for me is not whether Lucius is a villian or not, nor even the type of villian. It's the fact that his villiany was hand waved away at the end and the gravity of the fact that he's really a pretty darn evil dude was played for a laugh. My problem is that it felt like the writers were not looking past the funny and seeing the real evil within.

I just have to say, thank you Psychofilly. As one of the people negatively affected by "Irresistible" and the issues described above having been handled so abysmally, I completely agree with most of what you have said here, bar the ending feeling satisfying as it really wasn't enough for me.

I was molested as a minor, and I'll outline my personal reaction to "Irresistible" again for anyone who didn't read it in that episode thread: I barely made it through one viewing before throwing up for the first of several occasions over the next three weeks as it gave me major flashbacks, nightmares and migraines in addition to the nausea. I'll tell you something, Ken, I am a regular viewer of Law & Order: Special Victims Unit, and I handle the sexual assaults that happen on that show without personal difficulty. It was being blindsided by the issue and its being treated so carelessly and in a comedic fashion on what was my favourite show that made me react so badly to Irresistible, and I said as much to Joe and N John Smith in the Stargate talk at Collectormania, and I'm not afraid to speak out in public about how awfully that issue was handled.

It's not "cologne". Cologne makes people smell better. It doesn't cause the people around them to have diminished capacity and come under the wearer's control, and I find it seriously offensive that you would even suggest such a thing.


As for the continuity with the personal shield in this particular ep, 3x13... yeah, that just bugged the hell out of me as Hide and Seek is a favourite episode of mine. Honestly, I think not checking canon is kinda lazy, and I'm not blaming you personally for that, I have read all these technical issues and such brought up in the thread, but seriously. Most fanfiction writers check their facts first. I'm sick of the Big Red Reset Button being pressed on this show. First the entropic cascade failure that should have been referred to in McKay and Mrs Miller when Rod was talking about staying in Rodney's Atlantis is completely ignored, now this? Getting very tired of it.

TBH, all of the above, the return of the character of Lucius and the severe lack of Elizabeth make me highly disinclined to ever watch this episode in full, even if it does have one of my favourite villains in it - and I'm talking about Kolya, not Lavin.

gravelgerdie
December 6th, 2006, 04:03 PM
I think the big problem for me on this episode is that the slow motion logic. It doesn't have logic because of the Hide and Seek episode. Rodney dumped coffee on himself and it didn't get him wet what so ever.. So in theory, Lucious(sp??) should not of gotten wet as well...

HyperCaz
December 6th, 2006, 04:12 PM
geez I go away for a few hours and the thread explodes with rape discussion.

There weren't any suggestions of rape in Irresponsible - Lucius' reputation was apparently enough to attract women to him. Thinking about it more...I wonder how many mini-Lucius spawn there are...and also I thought in Irresistible the writers were pretty careful not to mention anyone on Atlantis having sex with Lucius, although there were mentions of marriage.

I like Irresistible, the problem with Irresponsible is that without any funny behaviour from characters it just didn't amuse me. Lucius and the respones of the SGA characters were a, mind the quote, "packaged deal". Without the respones, the character didn't hold up.

Luz
December 6th, 2006, 04:13 PM
I think the big problem for me on this episode is that the slow motion logic. It doesn't have logic because of the Hide and Seek episode. Rodney dumped coffee on himself and it didn't get him wet what so ever.. So in theory, Lucious(sp??) should not of gotten wet as well...

Nothing about the shield had any logic, it's like they just disregarded everything we learned from Hide and Seek, do they even remember that episode?, or they thought none of us would remember.
Must be the reset button at work, no memories, no consequences.

Agent_Dark
December 6th, 2006, 04:16 PM
I LIKED THE PART WHERE McKAY WAS DIGGING A HOLE WITH HIS SPOON. LOL.

Trialia
December 6th, 2006, 04:16 PM
Caz - there wasn't in Irresponsible. There was in Irresistible, and that episode has been being discussed previously in this thread. I just happened on the discussion a little late is all. Besides, I didn't just mention that in my post y'know. I did talk about this episode too.

TJuk
December 6th, 2006, 04:16 PM
Aren't discussion threads created so we CAN over-anlyse things?

I know I dont come into these UNTIL I've seen the ep, that would be like writing a review without watching it. It also means I dont ruin the ep or have preconceptions. I take it at face value and enjoy it (or not) for what it is. For 'Irresistable' I didn't see the darker side to it, I enjoyed it, I even reviewed it positively. Then I got jumped on by lots of angry fans for daring to have such an opinion. No problem, I can see its an issue that generates incredibly powerful feelings. As someone from a family who has been affected by sexual assault, I more then understand the reaction. I watched the ep on face value though...with as Ken C put it, a 'love potion' ideal in mind. In hindsight, I went back, rewatched and thought yep, I totally see where you are coming from though I still enjoy the ep because thats no what *I* took from it. However, I think the important issue here is its not that Luscius was a villian, or what he did, its the way in which such the subject was handled. I guess its like people bringing up the whole murder, torture etc thing. They dont have one of the chracter being brutally tortured and make it funny (though an ep of Firefly did that...). They dont have bad guys stick babies on spikes as a joke...it all comes down to a matter of taste... And also being able to appreciate where the people who DO believe it was rape are coming from. Did I see it that way? Nope. Do I see where people are coming from who do. Very much so. Two sides to every story.

As for Irresponsible. Again I can see where Ken is coming from when he explains the background. Does it make me able to go back and enjoy the ep more? Nope, it still sucked.

And McKay...Spoon...loved that too... I was hoping for a Robin Hood moment (ya know, Alan Rickman...'I'm going to cut your heart out with a SPOON!!!!) I could so see Rodney doing a 'get back, I am a genius, I have a SPOON and I'm not afriad to use it!

prion
December 6th, 2006, 04:18 PM
Wow, so many posts.

The discussion of did or did Lucius not rape the women in “Irresistible” is a valid argument because we’re discussing his character in this episode as well.

What Lucius did, by Earth standards (at least civilized Earth standards) in the first episode was reprehensible. He took a chemical agent (call it phermones, whatever) that, as someone succinctly put, compromised the thought processes of those around him. We heard some of the women in the village saying they wouldn’t have given him the time of day, but suddenly, they found him fascinating. The fact is that Lucius uses outside influences (be it pheromones or an Ancient shield device) to artificially influence those around him. In the former case, it seriously compromised the thought processes of his ‘victims’ and also put them through the physical stage of withdrawal. In the latter case, these people were village idiots. I’m sorry, but for a whole bunch of villagers to think he’s neato-keen when otherwise he acts like a jerk, sleeps with married women and hides from husbands?? Jerk, idiot, letch. As for the village idiots, well, the less said the better.

Let's put it this way. If your sister/daughter/etc was one of the women unduly influenced by Lucius' pheromones, would you sit there and go "okay"??

Has Lucius learned anything between the two episodes? Nope, not that I could see. Same old devious ways and using people and abandoning them to save his own skin. I honestly would have preferred to have seen a darker version of him in this episode, not the buffoon, as this guy is well, a serial, er, um, villain of sorts. He’s the sort of person who doesn’t look like an axe-wielding maniac, who can insinuate himself into a situation without people being aware of his motives – which are simply to further his own gain. No, he’s not shooting, stabbing people or burning down villages, but he’s doing serious damage just the same. Makes me think of several CEOs who are now in prison due to their crimes….


I'm BACK! (Can you tell I don't feel like doing my work today?)

This is a perfect example of forming an opinion about something you don't have all the info on.

When Joseph wrote this episode -- he was in the office across from me -- I overheard him asking the actors who THEY thought their in-show heroes should be. It was Joe Flannigan himself who chose Evil Knievel. And Joseph worked it into the script. afterwords.

Ken

Alas, we can’t hang around the production office to glean these tidbits! ;) But thanks for the tidbit. I honestly thought that Knievel would be an idol of Sheppard’s (although I sorta thought Rodney should have said Dr. Who instead of Batman) <G>



*rolls eyes at whole rape debate*

What does it matter whether what Lucius did was technically rape or not? What he did was wrong, bad, evil. But he was a VILLAIN, for heaven's sake--even if he was a villain hiding under a thin layer of cheesy comedy. He was supposed to be evil! By definition, bad guys do bad things.

Why is it that no one had a problem with villains who tortured people, murdered people, overthrew governments in violent coups...but this one villain whose crime happened to be taking advantage of women sets off a firestorm?

If someone wants to be mad, maybe they should be mad at the viewers who didn't see past the "funny" layer to the real evil within, not the writers who simply tried to write a different kind of villain for a change (which I personally appreciate -- haven't we complained in other threads about too many episodes being the same all the time?)

WB

Me thinks this villain sets off the firestorm as many people don’t perceive him as that. He’s not a larcenous person who’s stealing trinkets from people’s bedside tables. He’s seriously messing with people’s heads (although I have little sympathy for the village idiots in this episode). Actually, what psychofilly said below is so good I’m just copying it and going “I agree.” J


I'd like to reply to this, if I may. And I'd also like to say that you are very brave to wade in here with us fans.

This reminds me of the rehabilitation of Mayborne. He was one slick, nasty, smart villian, and in his case, I honestly liked him better as a villian. There were moments in Irrisistable that touched on the evil inside of Lucius. When he threatened John, it was a seriously creepy moment. I felt like, in that scene, Lucius was capable of anything. I honestly didn't want an easy or happy ending. I wanted to see the show push that edge. I wanted some consequences, and acknowledgement that the people of Atlantis had dodged a bullet. NOT everyone just shaking it off and John making light while Rodney gives him a bit of comuppance. I wanted the show to go darker. And while I'm not looking for the angst fest of a show like BSG, which I also love, an intelligent exploration of the issue under all the comedy, would have been great.

The issue for me is not whether Lucius is a villian or not, nor even the type of villian. It's the fact that his villiany was hand waved away at the end and the gravity of the fact that he's really a pretty darn evil dude was played for a laugh. My problem is that it felt like the writers were not looking past the funny and seeing the real evil within.

Just snipping down to save space. I’ll just say I totally agree with the two points above.

Trialia
December 6th, 2006, 04:19 PM
TJuk - thank you, too, that's exactly what I'm trying to get at. I'm not going to jump on you for enjoying it, despite how I felt about the episode. But I'm glad that someone 'round here who did enjoy it first time can understand why it upset other people.

silence
December 6th, 2006, 04:22 PM
Maybe a stupid question, but did ANYONE ask Lucius where did he find the shield?

I mean there was ONLY ONE Ancient Personal Shield on Atlantis and it was _experimental_... now we find a guy wearing another one and noone bothers to get info how to hell he got his hands on one?

I would drag his fat annoying ass back to Atlantis and feed him to Wraith for that information.... but that's just me... thinking.. seems it wasn't only villagers who were left with half brain...

expendable_crewman
December 6th, 2006, 04:25 PM
It was interesting reading the thread in that I was surprised not by the level of disappointment in the episode itself, but in the amount of energy disappointed viewers put into their disappointment.

Kind of took the wind out of the sails but I am glad I had the chance to get that personal shield thing in perspective before my screening.

So, thanks to everyone for the heads up there. And the poster who mentioned The Good, the Bad, and the Ugly, I think you hit that one on the head.

Listen, I laughed way too much to trash this ep. I even hit the rewind a few times. The team moments were better than good and I guess I'm going to be one of those people who thinks Kolya, being more despicable than Lucius, got the death he deserved, if in fact he's really dead.

A few moments stood out: Kolya trying to turn Sheppard into a bloody pulp, Lucius trying to schmooze Kolya's men not realizing he had dynamite under his chair, the team chatter at the beginning of the ep, and the way the team stuck up for one another at the end. I actually liked the personal shield better in this ep. I'm going to choose to believe the one in Hide & Seek was defective. This shield seemed a bit more user friendly.

While nothing from the past was mentioned but if you have seen all episodes the anger was there & you could tell that Kolya was just getting tired of running into the team & the team stopping his plans each time. I saw John was being just the bigger man then Kolya is when he did not just out right shoot him in the beginning.This was my take-away as well.

Ken, I bought the "punish Lucius in his own jurisdiction" thing, hence I didn't get riled up seeing him free and happy in this ep. His people had the job of punishing him, not team Atlantis. I ended up being okay with that. The miracle cologne vs. drug thing may prove a tough sell, although you've made some good points.

Anyway, all of this is my $.02, of course, meaning I can only speak for myself. When I get home (yeah, I'm at work and like a few others I'm NOT working), I'm going to need a few chuckles. I'll probably turn on Irresponsible.

caty
December 6th, 2006, 04:27 PM
Aren't discussion threads created so we CAN over-anlyse things?



I didn't imply that people shouldn't over-analyze things if they want to. It's a free forum :)
It is just my opinion that reading too much into an episode or being upset by every single nitpick or continuity error takes away the fact that this is supposed to be fun and it just makes life harder.
I mean, I assume that the people who post here like the show or they wouldn't take the time to comment on it at all.
With the episode threads, I get the impression that the memorable, good things are not given enough mention because the threads are often overshadowed with negativity.
Again, this is just my opinion and people can be as negative or nitpicky as they wanna be. I just explained why I don't often visit the ep threads :)

lord-anubis
December 6th, 2006, 04:29 PM
think the big problem for me on this episode is that the slow motion logic. It doesn't have logic because of the Hide and Seek episode. Rodney dumped coffee on himself and it didn't get him wet what so ever.. So in theory, Lucious(sp??) should not of gotten wet as well...



did he get wet? i thought he dident and the problme was he just couldent breth under the water

Alipeeps
December 6th, 2006, 04:33 PM
TJuk - thank you, too, that's exactly what I'm trying to get at. I'm not going to jump on you for enjoying it, despite how I felt about the episode. But I'm glad that someone 'round here who did enjoy it first time can understand why it upset other people.

I think most people who enjoyed either of the Lucius eps can see where those who didn't are coming from and will freely admit that, on analysis, using the drug amounted to rape - but I, for example, took from the ep that that was not the intent of it and find that the ep can be enjoyed on its face value. I think what has been difficult for some people in the discussion threads is that some of the people who see the eps differently, who feel the issue of rape overshadows the rest of the ep, have been so condemning the eps and everything to do with them that it has verged on imposing one's opinion on others and suggesting that anyone who does quite like the eps is in some way insensitive or is condoning rape.

caty
December 6th, 2006, 04:34 PM
did he get wet? i thought he dident and the problme was he just couldent breth under the water

No, he didn't get wet! I just watched it again... He just couldn't breathe...

TJuk
December 6th, 2006, 04:34 PM
I didn't imply that people shouldn't over-analyze things if they want to. It's a free forum :)
It is just my opinion that reading too much into an episode or being upset by every single nitpick or continuity error takes away the fact that this is supposed to be fun and it just makes life harder.
I mean, I assume that the people who post here like the show or they wouldn't take the time to comment on it at all.
With the episode threads, I get the impression that the memorable, good things are not given enough mention because the threads are often overshadowed with negativity.
Again, this is just my opinion and people can be as negative or nitpicky as they wanna be. I just explained why I don't often visit the ep threads :)

Yeah but well I guess people just find *****ING more enjoyable then saying how nice things are. And nope, I get you didn't mean we couldn't, I was just confused as to why people would bring it up. Its like I said, I watch an ep without reading ANYTHING but spoilers, I want to form my own opinion without influence and enjoy (or not) for what it is as simply a viewer. Then I come in here (if I feel the urge) to have a good discussion. Notice though, its the bad eps that generate the most discussion. Like carrion to a carcass everyone can smell a good *****ing debate a mile away and if its not taken personally and arguements are made with some thought (more then a I hate it, it sucks'), then its bloody good fun. And maybe, just maybe TPTB will read some of the more constructive comments and use the feedback to improve the show. Some people might find these discussions a varitable goldmine!

silence
December 6th, 2006, 04:37 PM
I didn't imply that people shouldn't over-analyze things if they want to. It's a free forum :)
It is just my opinion that reading too much into an episode or being upset by every single nitpick or continuity error takes away the fact that this is supposed to be fun and it just makes life harder.
I mean, I assume that the people who post here like the show or they wouldn't take the time to comment on it at all.
With the episode threads, I get the impression that the memorable, good things are not given enough mention because the threads are often overshadowed with negativity.
Again, this is just my opinion and people can be as negative or nitpicky as they wanna be. I just explained why I don't often visit the ep threads :)


I don't think we are nitpicking. It's more like venting out our frustration.
After all.. if every single poster noticed that there is plot hole big about shield, i think at least someone on production crew should have noticed.
It's not like they don't have access to Hide And Seek. Was it that hard to check what they wrote before? It would took only few minutes....

Also, after Common Ground everybody expected much more from Kolya. I really didn't expect him to get killed in "funny" episode with most annoying character ever introduced in SGA.

Kolya was blood thirsty b****** and he didnt even shoot a single villager?(at least that would make me smile after seeing how stupid and moronic they were)
Nothing.
Noone got killed... in which other ep was Kolya acting like this?
NEVER.


Offcourse i am negative, Kolya simply shouldn't have been there, at least not like this... it was pathetic was to kill prolly the best villain in Pegasus.

Trialia
December 6th, 2006, 04:37 PM
I think most people who enjoyed either of the Lucius eps can see where those who didn't are coming from and will freely admit that, on analysis, using the drug amounted to rape - but I, for example, took from the ep that that was not the intent of it and find that the ep can be enjoyed on its face value. I think what has been difficult for some people in the discussion threads is that some of the people who see the eps differently, who feel the issue of rape overshadows the rest of the ep, have been so condemning the eps and everything to do with them that it has verged on imposing one's opinion on others and suggesting that anyone who does quite like the eps is in some way insensitive or is condoning rape.

So I've gathered. I don't think the insensitivity problem lies in the viewers though, quite frankly, and I'm not going to blame it on people who enjoyed it like that. It wasn't their fault the issue was treated in such a cavalier fashion.

Alipeeps
December 6th, 2006, 04:37 PM
Maybe a stupid question, but did ANYONE ask Lucius where did he find the shield?

I mean there was ONLY ONE Ancient Personal Shield on Atlantis and it was _experimental_... now we find a guy wearing another one and noone bothers to get info how to hell he got his hands on one?

I would drag his fat annoying ass back to Atlantis and feed him to Wraith for that information.... but that's just me... thinking.. seems it wasn't only villagers who were left with half brain...

He told them where he got it - one of the adoring people on his planet gave it to him as a gift. We don't know where that person got it from though...


And the poster who mentioned The Good, the Bad, and the Ugly, I think you hit that one on the head.


Thank you! My little analysis there seemed to get lost in the landslide of discussion of poor writing and how horrible Lucius is... but having watched the ep again this evening, I am even more convinced that that was a conscious decision and that that particular scene was a deliberate homage to that film...


did he get wet? i thought he dident and the problme was he just couldent breth under the water

I thought the same as you - I never saw any sign of him being wet. The problem was that although the shield kept the water off him, his head being surrounded by water meant that no air could get through the shield to him and he was suffocating.

silence
December 6th, 2006, 04:43 PM
He told them where he got it - one of the adoring people on his planet gave it to him as a gift. We don't know where that person got it from though...


My bad... i prolly skipped that part. I really can't stand him. I was fast forwarding most scenes where he opens mouth (yap, it was short ep for me).

At least that's cleared... offcourse there is question of ATA gene and other plot holes...

I won't nitpick into this, by asking where to hell did some villager get experimental Ancient PS... nm... let's suspend some disbelief ;)

TJuk
December 6th, 2006, 04:53 PM
Thank you! My little analysis there seemed to get lost in the landslide of discussion of poor writing and how horrible Lucius is... but having watched the ep again this evening, I am even more convinced that that was a conscious decision and that that particular scene was a deliberate homage to that film...

Oops! Sorry I missed that! I got that too, in fact Shep/Joe was sorta Clint the whole ep with the laid back way he was sitting in the chair and chewing the grass to the whole sooooo cliche gunslinger stylee of shots at the end. Its a shame, because given a good WESTERN style set and planet, it would have been a much much different episode. But reused (over used!) sets, costumes and poor rushed editing just say they were desperate for a cheap ep. Yet they supposedly knock of one of SGA's best villians???? Makes no sense.

Def moments of 'The Good, The Bad and the Ugly', 'High Noon', 'A Fist Full of Dollars', 'Pale Rider' and any other good classic western you can think of in those end shots. They just fell flat on their face because they were completely out of place.

ShadowMaat
December 6th, 2006, 04:59 PM
Can I ask, in all seriousness, why you say that? What has Joe or Martin done that makes you think they are a glutton for punishment when dealing with fans?
Because they keep coming back? ;) Fandom isn't always a pretty thing, especially if a portion of them are unhappy about something. They vent and vent and vent about it and folks like Ken and Joe and some of the others with an online presence keep answering back, deflecting, explaining, rationalizing, joking, answering some more... *shrug* It was meant to be funny.

As for the over-analysis thing... that's what fans do- take things apart and see what makes them tick, discover the discrepancies, fanwank explanations, gripe, pick some more, point out inconsistencies and gaps, etc. It's part and parcel of being a fanatic.

macktheknife
December 6th, 2006, 04:59 PM
I wonder if ken read any discussion threads on good episodes? Or does he just like punishment? From what I've read of the next couple of episodes, he could be in for alot more punishment.

caty
December 6th, 2006, 05:02 PM
I don't think we are nitpicking. It's more like venting out our frustration.
After all.. if every single poster noticed that there is plot hole big about shield, i think at least someone on production crew should have noticed.
It's not like they don't have access to Hide And Seek. Was it that hard to check what they wrote before? It would took only few minutes....

Also, after Common Ground everybody expected much more from Kolya. I really didn't expect him to get killed in "funny" episode with most annoying character ever introduced in SGA.



I wasn't talking about that particular plot hole in 'Irresponsible'... That was very annoying and a huge plot hole.. I was talking about the urge to nitpick in every single episode, more the 'this doesn't make sense because of these particular theories of wormhole physics explained in SG-1 Season 3 Episode 18'-talking...

And I hated what they did with Kolya and totally agree with what you say.

Again, this was an overall explanation why I don't visit ep threads very often...

Alipeeps
December 6th, 2006, 05:03 PM
Because they keep coming back? ;) Fandom isn't always a pretty thing, especially if a portion of them are unhappy about something. They vent and vent and vent about it and folks like Ken and Joe and some of the others with an online presence keep answering back, deflecting, explaining, rationalizing, joking, answering some more... *shrug* It was meant to be funny.

As for the over-analysis thing... that's what fans do- take things apart and see what makes them tick, discover the discrepancies, fanwank explanations, gripe, pick some more, point out inconsistencies and gaps, etc. It's part and parcel of being a fanatic.

Oh don't get me wrong, I wasn't meaning to pick; I genuinely wanted clarification because I didn't actually know that Joe or Martin particularly have an online presence..... :)

caty
December 6th, 2006, 05:03 PM
I wonder if ken read any discussion threads on good episodes? Or does he just like punishment? From what I've read of the next couple of episodes, he could be in for alot more punishment.

Well, he did post in the CG-thread... I don't think there was as much negativity there...

silence
December 6th, 2006, 05:05 PM
Oops! Sorry I missed that! I got that too, in fact Shep/Joe was sorta Clint the whole ep with the laid back way he was sitting in the chair and chewing the grass to the whole sooooo cliche gunslinger stylee of shots at the end. Its a shame, because given a good WESTERN style set and planet, it would have been a much much different episode. But reused (over used!) sets, costumes and poor rushed editing just say they were desperate for a cheap ep. Yet they supposedly knock of one of SGA's best villians???? Makes no sense.

Def moments of 'The Good, The Bad and the Ugly', 'High Noon', 'A Fist Full of Dollars', 'Pale Rider' and any other good classic western you can think of in those end shots. They just fell flat on their face because they were completely out of place.

so true.... and why in the world noone got killed but Kolya?
at least some of those braindead zombie villagers.. that would make the threat a bit more convincing... but nothing... nada... zero... null...

also, when i saw Shep with silenced P-90 i was REALLY excited... next scene?
gone.
no silencer.

frustrating.

macktheknife
December 6th, 2006, 05:07 PM
Yeah. I thought it was going Storm/Eye style, saw the 3 genni waltz around, and thought "heh, they are going down". Then nothing.

:(

Luz
December 6th, 2006, 05:08 PM
Well, he did post in the CG-thread... I don't think there was as much negativity there...

Now I feel like watching CG just to wash down the bitter taste in the mouth left by this stinker. CG was great, this one was an utter piece of crap, I can't say it was a let down because I knew Lucius would be in it, but after Echoes this one felt specially craptacular.
I expected Kolya to go on an episode like CG, or The eye, something more intense.

Trialia
December 6th, 2006, 05:09 PM
Well, he did post in the CG-thread... I don't think there was as much negativity there...

That might be because Common Ground was a damn good episode. Nothing with the character of Lucius Lavin in it can say the same. :rolleyes: I mean seriously, even without the SA issues in Irresistible, he's just obnoxious and not even a very well-written villain. I enjoyed watching Maybourne more than I could ever like watching LL, and I don't even LIKE Maybourne...

caty
December 6th, 2006, 05:10 PM
Now I feel like watching CG just to wash down the bitter taste in the mouth left by this stinker. CG was great, this one was an utter piece of crap, I can't say it was a let down because I knew Lucius would be in it, but after Echoes this one felt specially craptacular.
I expected Kolya to go on an episode like CG, or The eye, something more intense.

I agree, that was a huge letdown! I liked the ep otherwise Great character moments for our guys), but Kolya should have gotten an own ep..
But I don't think he's dead either... He's like a cockroach :D

ShadowMaat
December 6th, 2006, 05:11 PM
Oh don't get me wrong, I wasn't meaning to pick; I genuinely wanted clarification because I didn't actually know that Joe or Martin particularly have an online presence..... :)

Well, they used to, anyway. ;) Joe in particular. Especially his blog, which at times was full of anonymous hatred, spite and vitriol. Hmm... That reminds me...

Hey Ken! How'd ya like to blog for Gateworld? It's loads of fun! :D

Shipperahoy
December 6th, 2006, 05:11 PM
I really really enjoy Atlantis and to date there have only been 3 episodes that I truly didn't care for. The Tower, Irresistable, and now Irresponsible. Usually, even if there are elements to an episode that I don't care for there is enough that I do like that it redeems the ep for me. Not so with this one.

I enjoy Richard Kind as an actor. I think he's hilarious. However, Lucius is just such a one-note character that it's hard to dredge up any interest in what happens to him. Even putting aside the moral ambiguity of his pheremone-enhanced sex spree previously I have to grit my teeth whenever he's on screen. I know that we're not meant to like the character but when it's to the point where I want to fast forward every time he's on screen that's not really a good thing and the attempt to redeem him somewhat was so incredibly feeble as to be ludicrous. Not to mention that the whole episode felt like Irresistable Redux with a few Genii thrown in. The team goes to a village and find the town listening rapturously to a man who would make the hair on the back of a nun's neck stand up only to learn that he's really a fraud. I wonder where I've seen that before?

As far as Kolya goes, I'm not really sorry to see him dead. He was an interesting character at first because he seemed sort of noble, in that he seemed like he was truly trying to do what he felt was best for his homeworld, no matter what he had to do to make it so. However, he's turned in to such a cliche these last few episodes that he's not really interesting to me any more. His sole purpose was to kill Sheppard. That's it. There's nothing else to him. How he died was a letdown though. For all that he was an iron-fisted badass commando type he went down as easy as a boxer being paid to take a fall. Of course if it had gone down any other way we wouldn't have gotten the Clint Eastwood-esque shoot-out. I kept half-expecting to hear Sheppard say "Do you feel lucky? Well do ya...punk?".

Oh and speaking of Sheppard (and I do like the character, I really really do) it seems like there is a lot of him pulling Die Hard and always being the one to get away and save the others, who invariably are captured. He's like a one man army. If they really wanted to save production costs they could just have him be the whole team by himself. Then he wouldn't have to save they others anymore which would give him plenty of free time to pick up a sexy extra or two.

I don't really like being negative so I'll close with the few things that I liked about the episode. For one, I like Ronan more and more every episode. He's less stone-faced now and the few laughs I had this episode came from him. The village setting, though recycled is still stunning. That's about it though. Still, like I said, I really enjoy Atlantis and a bad ep here and there do not ruin the series for me.

silence
December 6th, 2006, 05:12 PM
Again, this was an overall explanation why I don't visit ep threads very often...

Me neither.... this is prolly first time i made so many posts in episode thread.
I am not into techno-babble and i couldnt care less about made-up physics.
What i do care about is.. insulting my inteligence, getting rid of great villain the way they did, using western inspired script in fairytale village and all other stupidity that was done in this ep...

/still venting

i watched "The Return II" three times cause it had great humor, but also drama, settings were great and it felt great... even after third watching i was still laughing at some jokes... i thought there was plothole, started topic about, but as discussion went.. i changed my mind and watched again... and enjoyed again...

this one? i even fast forwarded some parts (that's why i didn't even know where that annoying moron got the shield)...

/can't stop venting

;)

Lauriel
December 6th, 2006, 05:16 PM
All I'm sayin is that the LOVE POTION is a timeless story device, and that in this case it is being over-analysed to prove that a fictional character you dislike is a serial rapist - and that we, the writers think that is funny.

Nobody thinks rape is funny - we never said anything about rape - we simply used the love potion as it is always used throughout literature and entertainment - as a device (comedic or otherwise) to transform a social leper into a stud-muffin. (ala Nutty Professor - and a million other examples.) At least with our version, he is painted as a villain. And he gets his come-uppance at the end -- he doesn't win the heart of the girl he alledgedly raped (as in Nutty Professor)

By the way, I'm not picking on your opinion, or even saying it is wrong. I'm just adding another layer to a moral debate. So don't feel like this is me defending the episode or character -- or atticking you in any way. :)
Thanks for entering the fray Ken! Very brave of you.

Just my two cents: I think that what Lucius did was rape, those women were unwillingly and unknowingly exposed to a drug that altered their perception and effectively removed their willpower and decision making abilities. However, the writers also made it quite clear that Lucius knew what he was doing, and knew it was wrong, however he may justify it to himself. The scene with Sheppard in the cell made it blatantly obvious how creepy Lucius' character was, and that scene was the defining scene which illustrates that Lucius was the villian and was acting immorally. This scene shows that the writers do not condone Lucius' behaviour, nor do they promote it, regardless of the comedic aspects of the episode.


Oops! Sorry I missed that! I got that too, in fact Shep/Joe was sorta Clint the whole ep with the laid back way he was sitting in the chair and chewing the grass to the whole sooooo cliche gunslinger stylee of shots at the end. Its a shame, because given a good WESTERN style set and planet, it would have been a much much different episode. But reused (over used!) sets, costumes and poor rushed editing just say they were desperate for a cheap ep. Yet they supposedly knock of one of SGA's best villians???? Makes no sense.

Def moments of 'The Good, The Bad and the Ugly', 'High Noon', 'A Fist Full of Dollars', 'Pale Rider' and any other good classic western you can think of in those end shots. They just fell flat on their face because they were completely out of place.
I'm sure I would have been more enthusiastic about this if I didn't loathe Clint Eastwood! :p Regardless of my personal opinions about westerns, I was very disappointed to see Kolya taken out of the picture so easily. As you said, taking Kolya out in this fashion makes no sense. Given Kolya's and Sheppard's past history I would have expected a much more angst-ridden and confronting finale for Davi's character. He certainly was much too vicious, intelligent and cunning a character to be taken out in one cheesy shot like he was. I'm willing to over look a little blatant stupidity on behalf of the team if it means they didn't check that Kolya was in fact dead and we get a decent confrontation between Kolya and Sheppard. I'd be happier with that than with this ending. This ending does absolutely no justice to the amount of tension and hatred built up between Sheppard and Kolya during the Storm/Eye and CG (oh, okay, and Brotherhood). I have a little scene in my head where Sheppy is standing there (very frustratedly) asking Kolya "Why wont you just die!" Ah, well.

Rant about the disappointing Kolya ending aside, the rest of the ep wasn't too bad. There was some humourous moments, and I loved that Lucius was adapting Sheppard's history to make his stories. A kind of 'imitation is the sincerest form of flattery' type of thing. I also loved his line "I'm invincible! I can't be vinced." LOL at that one. :)

silence
December 6th, 2006, 05:17 PM
Oh and speaking of Sheppard (and I do like the character, I really really do) it seems like there is a lot of him pulling Die Hard and always being the one to get away and save the others, who invariably are captured. He's like a one man army. If they really wanted to save production costs they could just have him be the whole team by himself. Then he wouldn't have to save they others anymore which would give him plenty of free time to pick up a sexy extra or two.



ROFL... you reminded me of an old joke...

Why didn't Bruce Willis play in "Titanic"?
Cause he would save them all.

:D

Trialia
December 6th, 2006, 05:23 PM
All I'm sayin is that the LOVE POTION is a timeless story device, and that in this case it is being over-analysed to prove that a fictional character you dislike is a serial rapist - and that we, the writers think that is funny.

Nobody thinks rape is funny - we never said anything about rape - we simply used the love potion as it is always used throughout literature and entertainment - as a device (comedic or otherwise) to transform a social leper into a stud-muffin. (ala Nutty Professor - and a million other examples.) At least with our version, he is painted as a villain. And he gets his come-uppance at the end -- he doesn't win the heart of the girl he alledgedly raped (as in Nutty Professor)

I've never liked the "love potion" as a plot device in any media, I find it childish. I don't find it funny that the writers seem to think it hilarious that this episode upset so many people in such a very serious way. Sexual assault isn't something that should be played with like that. We've been trying to change that in the world because comedy like this just encourages the culture of silence around SA if victims think that they are going to be involved in a humour device and embarrassed if they come forward. It wasn't anything like as well done in "Irresistible" as it needed to be, and you need to address the possibility that your work may upset people as seriously as it has here.

Honestly, it disgusts and angers me that y'all seem to think people getting upset over this is funny. And you think his not getting the hearts of the women he assaulted is sufficient comeuppance? Are you mad? Do you have any idea what something like that will leave with those six "wives" for the rest of their lives? At all?

prion
December 6th, 2006, 05:35 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Alipeeps
Oh don't get me wrong, I wasn't meaning to pick; I genuinely wanted clarification because I didn't actually know that Joe or Martin particularly have an online presence.....

smatt said
Well, they used to, anyway. Joe in particular. Especially his blog, which at times was full of anonymous hatred, spite and vitriol. Hmm... That reminds me...

Hey Ken! How'd ya like to blog for Gateworld? It's loads of fun!

Martin I believe has popped up time to time in emails here and there, but infrequently. Joe used to blog here, but like said above, it got nasty;however, he could also dish out as good as he got. I still remember the letter of comment he sent to one reviewer that got published online. Sounded just like an upset fan ;)

Alipeeps
December 6th, 2006, 05:47 PM
I've never liked the "love potion" as a plot device in any media, I find it childish. I don't find it funny that the writers seem to think it hilarious that this episode upset so many people in such a very serious way. Sexual assault isn't something that should be played with like that. We've been trying to change that in the world because comedy like this just encourages the culture of silence around SA if victims think that they are going to be involved in a humour device and embarrassed if they come forward. It wasn't anything like as well done in "Irresistible" as it needed to be, and you need to address the possibility that your work may upset people as seriously as it has here.

Honestly, it disgusts and angers me that y'all seem to think people getting upset over this is funny. And you think his not getting the hearts of the women he assaulted is sufficient comeuppance? Are you mad? Do you have any idea what something like that will leave with those six "wives" for the rest of their lives? At all?

Wow. We're obviously reading different posts here - I honestly don't see any evidence that the writers "think it hilarious that this episode upset so many people in such a very serious way" or "think people getting upset over this is funny" and, honestly, I feel it's rather personally insulting to the writers of you to suggest as much. I realise that you have very strong feelings about this issue due to your own personal history - I also think however that your personal issues with the subject matter make it difficult for you to discuss the issue objectively.

At no point has anyone - let alone Ken - suggested that they think that people getting upset over this issue is funny. All anyone has done is state opinions differing with yours and attempt to explain their own reasoning and opinions. Perhaps what you perceive as people making light of some people's upset over the topic is due to the fact that emotions are raised in this thread and a lot of people are purposely trying to keep the tone light so that people don't get overly-wound up and take offense?

Ken has offered some interesting and thought-provoking commentary on the issue - both from a moral/theoretical point of view and from a writing perspective.

Trialia
December 6th, 2006, 05:56 PM
Wow. We're obviously reading different posts here - I honestly don't see any evidence that the writers "think it hilarious that this episode upset so many people in such a very serious way" or "think people getting upset over this is funny" and, honestly, I feel it's rather personally insulting to the writers of you to suggest as much. I realise that you have very strong feelings about this issue due to your own personal history - I also think however that your personal issues with the subject matter make it difficult for you to discuss the issue objectively.

At no point has anyone - let alone Ken - suggested that they think that people getting upset over this issue is funny. All anyone has done is state opinions differing with yours and attempt to explain their own reasoning and opinions. Perhaps what you perceive as people making light of some people's upset over the topic is due to the fact that emotions are raised in this thread and a lot of people are purposely trying to keep the tone light so that people don't get overly-wound up and take offense?

Ken has offered some interesting and thought-provoking commentary on the issue - both from a moral/theoretical point of view and from a writing perspective.

Shall I quote again?


All I'm sayin is that the LOVE POTION is a timeless story device, and that in this case it is being over-analysed to prove that a fictional character you dislike is a serial rapist - and that we, the writers think that is funny.
Over-analysis is what fans do. Why find it funny that some of us find something that was actually written into the episode - apparently unknowingly by the writers! - much less funny than it was apparently intended to be? That's what makes me so angry, and okay, yes, I'm not objective about this, but think about it, would you be, in my position?

I asked N John Smith at Collectormania a couple of weeks ago whether anything like this had been considered, and he said no, and I honestly don't think it was thought about - but therein lies much of the problem. You can't expect fans NOT to "overanalyse" an episode - fan is, after all, short for "fanatic". And that being the case, it should have been thought about.

I'll be especially honest with you Ali, I shake every time I so much as think about that episode, in anger and nausea and sheer frustration that something potentially this big and this serious was overlooked so casually and is now being treated in the cavalier way it is being. All I, personally, want is acknowledgement and apology, and maybe to be told that the writers will think before they finalise an episode like this in future. Is that too much to ask? I'm not asking for me alone.

prion
December 6th, 2006, 06:03 PM
Shall I quote again?


Over-analysis is what fans do. Why find it funny that some of us find something that was actually written into the episode - apparently unknowingly by the writers! - much less funny than it was apparently intended to be? That's what makes me so angry, and okay, yes, I'm not objective about this, but think about it, would you be, in my position?

I asked N John Smith at Collectormania a couple of weeks ago whether anything like this had been considered, and he said no, and I honestly don't think it was thought about - but therein lies much of the problem. You can't expect fans NOT to "overanalyse" an episode - fan is, after all, short for "fanatic". And that being the case, it should have been thought about.

I'll be especially honest with you Ali, I shake every time I so much as think about that episode, in anger and nausea and sheer frustration that something potentially this big and this serious was overlooked so casually and is now being treated in the cavalier way it is being. All I, personally, want is acknowledgement and apology, and maybe to be told that the writers will think before they finalise an episode like this in future. Is that too much to ask? I'm not asking for me alone.

Snort. If you want over-analyzation, just toss some sports fans together to rip apart the SuperBowl or some other game! ;)

Personally, I think Lucious shouldn't have gotten off with just a kick from the kid. He's got way too much info on Atlantis, he's got a history of using/abusing people with his deceptive ways. Still think he's slime.

Of course, this is NOTHING compared to the incredible bruhaha that happened over RESCUE ME about the rape scene which the writers didn't think was rape, but which a lot of critics and viewers did. Talk about alienating your audience. http://featuresblogs.chicagotribune.com/entertainment_tv/rescue_me/index.html has all the info on that, and it's fascinating reading to see how people interpret what was on screen (particularly when coming from male and female viewpoints).

But back to this episode. The thing is that people who totally hate, I mean, really hate it. THey don't even bother to critique it. The fact that we fans take the time mean we still like the show, despite some glaring faults ;)

Agent_Dark
December 6th, 2006, 06:05 PM
I think some of the people that are getting this worked up over this episode (or any other aspect of a TV show) should probably go outside and take a few deep breaths...

HyperCaz
December 6th, 2006, 06:06 PM
Caz - there wasn't in Irresponsible. There was in Irresistible, and that episode has been being discussed previously in this thread. I just happened on the discussion a little late is all. Besides, I didn't just mention that in my post y'know. I did talk about this episode too.

I read all the posts and I made a new point of my own entirely unrelated to the rape issue. I wasn't directing that comment at anyone, it was just my own two cents. Where in my post did you take offence?

prion
December 6th, 2006, 06:07 PM
Oh and speaking of Sheppard (and I do like the character, I really really do) it seems like there is a lot of him pulling Die Hard and always being the one to get away and save the others, who invariably are captured. He's like a one man army. If they really wanted to save production costs they could just have him be the whole team by himself. Then he wouldn't have to save they others anymore which would give him plenty of free time to pick up a sexy extra or two.



Then who would do all the technobabble?? ;)

Trialia
December 6th, 2006, 06:10 PM
I read all the posts and I made a new point of my own entirely unrelated to the rape issue. I wasn't directing that comment at anyone, it was just my own two cents. Where in my post did you take offence?
What? I didn't take offence... if I'd taken offence you would KNOW about it :P Sorry if I led you to think so.

HyperCaz
December 6th, 2006, 06:10 PM
as I said before, without amusing drugged responses to Lucius, the character failed to reprise any humour. Lucius and the drug pretty much went together and how Atlantis reacted was probably the only reason that saved Irresistible for me.

In Irresponsible, it was just reputation - and while this is to perhaps avoid a retread, it doesn't make Lucius funny for us.

HyperCaz
December 6th, 2006, 06:16 PM
What? I didn't take offence... if I'd taken offence you would KNOW about it :P Sorry if I led you to think so.

ok :) glad we got that settled.

Alipeeps
December 6th, 2006, 06:20 PM
Shall I quote again?

[

All I'm sayin is that the LOVE POTION is a timeless story device, and that in this case it is being over-analysed to prove that a fictional character you dislike is a serial rapist - and that we, the writers think that is funny.

I think we have an issue of semantics here.. of meaning perhaps not translating well? My understanding of what Ken is saying the writers think is funny is the timeless story device - not the over-analysis of the fans. However, if I am misunderstanding Ken, then I still don't see how that equates to the writers thinking it's funny that people have gotten upset over this ep. Thinking it's funny that the fans analyse every ep down to the microscopic level - and let's face it, we *do* - is a far cry from suggesting that they think people like yourself getting upset over the subject of sexual assult (which was never meant to be the focus of the episode anyway) is entertaining.



Over-analysis is what fans do. Why find it funny that some of us find something that was actually written into the episode - apparently unknowingly by the writers! - much less funny than it was apparently intended to be? That's what makes me so angry, and okay, yes, I'm not objective about this, but think about it, would you be, in my position?

I'm sorry, I felt Ken was perfectly reasonably explaining the intended themes behind the ep and I can honestly see how someone would find it at least mildly funny that people would dissect and analyse not only the episode but the intent of the writers to such an extent and find things in there that were never intended.



I asked N John Smith at Collectormania a couple of weeks ago whether anything like this had been considered, and he said no, and I honestly don't think it was thought about - but therein lies much of the problem. You can't expect fans NOT to "overanalyse" an episode - fan is, after all, short for "fanatic". And that being the case, it should have been thought about.

So you're seriously suggesting that every single moment of every episode should be gone over with a fine-tooth comb, picked apart and looked at from every single point of view before filming just in case there's a slight possibility that someone somewhere might be upset by it? You simply cannot legislate for personal experience and preference. As evidenced by all the discussion on these episodes... where you see one thing, many others enjoyed the eps and had no problem with them. To try and make sure no-one anywhere could possibly be offended/upset/whatever by any element of an episode is impossible and impractical and embodies the worst aspects of political correctness and censorship.



I'll be especially honest with you Ali, I shake every time I so much as think about that episode, in anger and nausea and sheer frustration that something potentially this big and this serious was overlooked so casually and is now being treated in the cavalier way it is being. All I, personally, want is acknowledgement and apology, and maybe to be told that the writers will think before they finalise an episode like this in future. Is that too much to ask? I'm not asking for me alone.

However, you must admit that your perspective on this is extreme and perhaps not the norm - don't forget also that those of us who dissect and examine every ep on GW are a tiny minority of the people who watch the show. I honestly think it is too much to ask - that TOTB consider your personal wishes when finalising ep content? You cannot expect TPTB to apologise for the way you personally, because of your life experiences, interpreted this episode. In the end, the only true power of censorship over the content of the show you can ever hold is that personal to you and you alone - the off switch.

caty
December 6th, 2006, 06:28 PM
I totally agree, Ali! You practically took the words out of my mouth!

Trialia: You want people to put themselves in your position, but keeping in mind what Ali said, you don't put yourself in the position of the 'normal' viewer whose judgement isn't shadowed by personal experience.
If TPTB indeed thought of everything that people might associate with something they film, we would have no show cause there'd be nothing left...

Luz
December 6th, 2006, 06:34 PM
I think we have an issue of semantics here.. of meaning perhaps not translating well? My understanding of what Ken is saying the writers think is funny is the timeless story device - not the over-analysis of the fans. However, if I am misunderstanding Ken, then I still don't see how that equates to the writers thinking it's funny that people have gotten upset over this ep. Thinking it's funny that the fans analyse every ep down to the microscopic level - and let's face it, we *do* - is a far cry from suggesting that they think people like yourself getting upset over the subject of sexual assult (which was never meant to be the focus of the episode anyway) is entertaining.

I thought it could be read two ways, I'm not sure what he meant and each way I try still sounds pretty insulting. What's he saying?, a) The writers thought the device of the love potion (or having Lucius drugging and raping those women) would be funny, or b) that it's funny having people thinking that Lucius using that potion to force himself of those women was rape.

Trialia
December 6th, 2006, 06:35 PM
*frustrated sigh* You're generalising, and I did say that I am not in this discussion just for myself. If I knew I was the only person who'd been badly upset by this episode I probably wouldn't be here.

There are some things - yes, any form of sexual assault is an example, but not the only subject - that should be treated with a damn sight more sensitivity than has been shown here. I'm not being selfish. Worldwide media have a great deal of power and that power needs to be exercised with responsibility.

Violence is one thing. Stargate has always been a franchise wherein a certain level of violence is usual and therefore anticipated. Something like this isn't usual and it isn't anticipated and it should have been handled a damn sight better than it HAS been.

Am I making myself sufficiently clear and comprehensive? Or are you just wilfully ignoring me because you think I'm hopelessly biased?

jonno
December 6th, 2006, 06:39 PM
This is exactly what Lucious does. He takes a formula (He does NOT as you say "Give a woman mind altering drugs."") that makes him appear as a charming sexy guy. The woman is not foggy and drug addled, unconcious or drunk -- she is just seeing things from a diferent perspective.

OK, as a Biologist, i'd say you could argue that that is exactly what he does do, in a round about way. A pheramone is a chemical that interacts with receptors in the body that send messages down neurones to the sunconscious part of the brain, affecting it in some way. In this case, the potion causes Lucius's body to synthesise the pheramone in question, which comes into contact with the victim, and ALTERS the brain on a SUBCONSIOUS level, and as it's an especially powerful signal in this case, the consious brain apparently can't overpower it - ie there is nothing the victim can do about it. In this case, it makes a revolting person seem like a love god. It is also apparent from the withdrawel effects Carson and the villages went through that it also caused a change in concentrations of the brain chemicals - changing the brain chemistry (i'm not an expert in brain hormone chemistry, but I do know that what makes something feel good etc is all to do with the release and concentration of various neurotransmitter chemicals and the like).

A drug is a chemical that is absorbed into the bloodstream and moves to the brain where it ALTERS the brain chemisty on a SUBCONSIOUS level - ie, there is nothing they can do about it.

OK, so the pheramone gets to the brain as a different signal to a drug, but in both it effects the signal pathways and chemical balance in the neurones of the brain at an unconsious level.


If you don't like the comedy episodes of Stargate, hey, that's cool -- I won't try to change your mind -- but why try to ruin the fun for those that do, by over-analysing the character and trying to apply "real-world" concetes to classic sci-fi story devices (such as the Love potion).

And that's one to grow on.

Ken

Hold on - that's part of the reason why we're here on the forum - to analyse and discuss the characters and concepts the writers have put in the show. Or to throw it back to the writers perspective, do you want to write a show where character and plot continuity can be disregarded just to serve the story the writers think is the bees knees, or do you want to write a well rounded action-drama with a touch of darkness at some times and humour at others, which just happens to be set in the background of a sci-fi universe.

Personally, and in the early seasons of SG-1, I thought the franchise was the second of the two options. And i had no objection to the humor episodes - Window of Opportunity is my fave, and from an Atlantis perspective, Duet was also darn amusing. However in this episode, the vast majority of comments here (and i'm basing this on the comments ... as a Brit I can't see it yet) have indicated that Joe and Paul have for some unknown reason disregarded continuity in terms of the shield device and apparently have plumped again for the 'lowest common denominator' type humour.

I like my Stargate humour to be intelligent and slick not oily and creepy as Lucius is.

I should also point out that this episode has drawn the most negative comments for an individual episode in a while. That usually means in a place like this where people are often die hard fans that the vast majority of people thought it a poor episode - and as a writer, shouldn't you try to please as many people as possible? To draw a response like this, you must have done something bad.

Finally - sorry if this appears as an attack on you Ken ... it isn't. From all reports you have a great grasp of character continuity etc. I think many people are concerned that this is the second JM/PM Atlantis episode in less than one season that have for the vast majority resorted to the lowest common denominator humour - the humour that evidently draws the most negative reaction from fans here.

Wow. For an episode that i haven't seen, that was longer than i thought!

caty
December 6th, 2006, 06:44 PM
*frustrated sigh* You're generalising, and I did say that I am not in this discussion just for myself. If I knew I was the only person who'd been badly upset by this episode I probably wouldn't be here.

There are some things - yes, any form of sexual assault is an example, but not the only subject - that should be treated with a damn sight more sensitivity than has been shown here. I'm not being selfish. Worldwide media have a great deal of power and that power needs to be exercised with responsibility.

Violence is one thing. Stargate has always been a franchise wherein a certain level of violence is usual and therefore anticipated. Something like this isn't usual and it isn't anticipated and it should have been handled a damn sight better than it HAS been.

Am I making myself sufficiently clear and comprehensive? Or are you just wilfully ignoring me because you think I'm hopelessly biased?

That's just it... In your opinion there was some form of sexual assault, in mine there wasn't... If I didn't visit this forum, I never even would have gotten the idea. I took it as humerous as it was meant to be..

Nobody is wilfully ignoring you, but I do think you're hopelessly biased... You have said that yourself more than once.

The Ori
December 6th, 2006, 06:45 PM
Need more action!!

Trialia
December 6th, 2006, 06:47 PM
That's just it... In your opinion there was some form of sexual assault, in mine there wasn't... If I didn't visit this forum, I never even would have gotten the idea.

Lucius' six wives. Those marriages, as Lucius said himself, made after a lack of consent on the part of at least one of his wives, were made under the influence of his herb. Therefore, non-consensual, therefore, any consummation of any one of those marriages, and one would naturally presume most marriages to be consummated, would de facto be rape. Does that explanation clarify my opinion on the subject?

caty
December 6th, 2006, 06:50 PM
Lucius' six wives. Those marriages, as Lucius said himself, made after a lack of consent on the part of at least one of his wives, were made under the influence of his herb. Therefore, non-consensual, therefore, any consummation of any one of those marriages, and one would naturally presume most marriages to be consummated, would de facto be rape. Does that explanation clarify my opinion on the subject?

Sorry, maybe it's the language but you've totally lost me there...

EDIT: But your opinion on the subject is crystal clear...

Luz
December 6th, 2006, 06:50 PM
Nobody is wilfully ignoring you, but I do think you're hopelessly biased... You have said that yourself more than once.

And so what if a person is biased?, will you disregard her opinion?, because that's what it seems with your bringing it up. I felt insulted by the way the issue was handled on Irresistible, and by the fact that Lucius got away with it (when I think as a punishment he should have had his skin ripped off of him, and lemon juice and salt throw over him). I have never been sexually assaulted though, is my opinion more valid because I'm not 'biased'?, oh wait, I absolutely loath Lucius, so I guess my opinion is 'biased', and not valid.
But then off course you'll say you were never implying that anyone's opinion isn't valid based on their feelings on the subject, or their feelings towards that filthy scumbag.

Trialia
December 6th, 2006, 06:52 PM
Sorry, maybe it's the language but you've totally lost me there...

Sorry. Give me a moment and I shall try to translate (my German is quite rusty).

caty
December 6th, 2006, 06:54 PM
And so what if a person is biased?, will you disregard her opinion?, because that's what it seems with your bringing it up. I felt insulted by the way the issue was handled on Irresistible, and by the fact that Lucius got away with it (when I think as a punishment he should have had his skin ripped off of him, and lemon juice and salt throw over him). I have never been sexually assaulted though, is my opinion more valid because I'm not 'biased'?, oh wait, I absolutely loath Lucius, so I guess my opinion is 'biased', and not valid.
But then off course you'll say you were never implying that anyone's opinion isn't valid based on their feelings on the subject, or their feelings towards that filthy scumbag.

I did not bring it up, Trialia brought it up herself... She asked if we thought she was biased and I answered her honestly... How is that disregarding an opinion? Have I ever implied that she can't have her own opinion or that her opinion isn't worth anything? Read before you say something like that.

And BTW: She did not seem upset that I answered her question...

expendable_crewman
December 6th, 2006, 06:54 PM
I've never liked the "love potion" as a plot device in any media, I find it childish. I don't find it funny that the writers seem to think it hilarious that this episode upset so many people in such a very serious way. Sexual assault isn't something that should be played with like that. We've been trying to change that in the world because comedy like this just encourages the culture of silence around SA if victims think that they are going to be involved in a humour device and embarrassed if they come forward. It wasn't anything like as well done in "Irresistible" as it needed to be, and you need to address the possibility that your work may upset people as seriously as it has here.

Honestly, it disgusts and angers me that y'all seem to think people getting upset over this is funny. And you think his not getting the hearts of the women he assaulted is sufficient comeuppance? Are you mad? Do you have any idea what something like that will leave with those six "wives" for the rest of their lives? At all?Trialia, I tried to find a character on TV I intensely disliked and remembered a character on Prison Break who so flips my switch that I've given up the show until he gets killed off. [Edit] I like Prison Break but the guy's part of the regular cast, so I'm out of luck. [End Edit]

Reflecting on that choice helped me put your comments in perspective.

Listen, I've worked with SA survivors, and that's all I'm going to say about that, except I know the trauma you're talking about.

For me nothing works after something on TV flips that switch except changing the channel.

I stated in the Irresistible thread that I think Lucius's herb caused a "free will" disconnect, which in my state is rape. But for me Irresistible was about Sheppard reacting to a scenario in which his peers and staff turned on him. Lucius was a device, not the main event. And for me, Irresponsible had the team together and in danger and it had Kolya.

Did I cringe when Sheppard said hey maybe Lucuis had learned his lesson? You bet.

I picked up on the "redemption" angle the ep was trying to take. It missed its landing with me, maybe not so with others, and that's okay. I'm just one person. After reading the thread, I'm thinking it won't take with me until the writing for this character (if he returns) addresses the "skeeve" factor. If the writers don't get it, they will never address it, and I'll cross that bridge if I have to. So far, there's more to like in the two Lucius eps than dislike and I'm comfortable enjoying the parts I liked.

Anyway, I just wanted to say that although I don't see the ep or Lucius the way you do, I get where you're coming from.

caty
December 6th, 2006, 06:55 PM
Sorry. Give me a moment and I shall try to translate (my German is quite rusty).

You don't have to do it in German, just explain it some more.. I'm usually quite good at English :)

Trialia
December 6th, 2006, 07:00 PM
You don't have to do it in German, just explain it some more.. I'm usually quite good at English :)

Well, okay then! At least that means I don't have to dig out my dictionary (it's been years since I've actually used my German in conversation).

Lucius' marriages were made while his wives were under the influence of his herb. He said himself that at least one of them wouldn't have married him without it. Marriages are usually cemented by a sexual relationship, so going by that, he had sex with all of them, and going by the fact that they were drugged, it was without their unimpaired consent, so it was rape.

That any better of an explanation? I'm sorry for getting a little windy in my word usage. I tend to try not to use more words than I must with something this important in case I veer off point and end up sounding like I'm saying something very different.


EC: thank you.

Skydiver
December 6th, 2006, 07:02 PM
Guys please.

I am well aware that aspects of this episode are treading close to some very 'dangerous' waters and personal issues/squicks of people. And perhaps that is the sign of a good episode, one that gets the discussion going. However, please, let's take things down a notch please. While i am aware that sexual assault/non-con sex is not a joke amongst some, not everyone may share your particular point of view.

Let's see if we can discuss the episode without sidetracking that discussion into the aspects of non-con. And if the non-con angle does come up, let's please try to discuss it clinically please.

And while we're doing all this, let's please try to maintain a level of respect towards each other

Luz
December 6th, 2006, 07:05 PM
I totally agree, Ali! You practically took the words out of my mouth!

Trialia: You want people to put themselves in your position, but keeping in mind what Ali said, you don't put yourself in the position of the 'normal' viewer whose judgement isn't shadowed by personal experience.
If TPTB indeed thought of everything that people might associate with something they film, we would have no show cause there'd be nothing left...


Have I ever implied that she can't have her own opinion or that her opinion isn't worth anything? Read before you say something like that.


When you said that she couldn't see the episode in the same light a 'normal' viewer whose judgment isn't shadowed by personal experience, what did you mean?. Because to me it seemed like you were saying that her opinion didn't hold the same value than that of a person who hadn't suffered from a sexual assault. And btw, she didn't ask you if you thought she was biased, she asked you if you were willfully ignoring her because you thought she was biased.

SGAFan
December 6th, 2006, 07:05 PM
Well, he did post in the CG-thread... I don't think there was as much negativity there...

Can't imagine why there would be much negativity in that thread.

*loves CG*

caty
December 6th, 2006, 07:10 PM
Well, okay then! At least that means I don't have to dig out my dictionary (it's been years since I've actually used my German in conversation).

Lucius' marriages were made while his wives were under the influence of his herb. He said himself that at least one of them wouldn't have married him without it. Marriages are usually cemented by a sexual relationship, so going by that, he had sex with all of them, and going by the fact that they were drugged, it was without their unimpaired consent, so it was rape.

That any better of an explanation? I'm sorry for getting a little windy in my word usage. I tend to try not to use more words than I must with something this important in case I veer off point and end up sounding like I'm saying something very different.


EC: thank you.

Uh, that explanation I understand :)
And I get that it is rape in your opinion... However, in mine it isn't... I'm not saying that Lucius is not a bad person, because he is...
But to me what he did is using them rather than raping them.. They were concious, they were willing and there was no force..
We can argue over the definition of 'rape' for ages, but we're really trailing off topic..
I just thought your choice of words toward Ken were too hard because of the fact that you are biased (which is fine!) But 'biased' always means a certain tunnel vision and I strongly believe that there was no spite intended by what Ken said...

Let's just agree to disagree and actually get back to discussing Irresponsible?

Lt. Colonel Ryu Gaia
December 6th, 2006, 07:13 PM
Well, read the script... and I loved it. I don't care how it translated to the screen, I'm completely in agreement with Cuperus. Brilliantly funny script.

Trialia
December 6th, 2006, 07:15 PM
And I get that it is rape in your opinion... However, in mine it isn't... I'm not saying that Lucius is not a bad person, because he is...
But to me what he did is using them rather than raping them.. They were concious, they were willing and there was no force..
We can argue over the definition of 'rape' for ages, but we're really trailing off topic..

Let's just agree to disagree and actually get back to discussing Irresponsible?

Hardly. In my country's law, if not in yours, people under the influence of alcohol or drugs like Lucius' herb can't legally consent. I am applying the situation to real life and telling you that in England he would have been arrested for rape when those women came out from under the influence of his herb.

Just so we're clear - I am not giving you my opinion, I am telling you that whether you think so or not, legally, here, it would be rape. That's all.

Okay. For now, end of this topic, as this does discuss Irresistible rather than Irresponsible.

I want to know something-- how does the episode title actually relate to the episode? Because I can't really see it. Any ideas?

Luz
December 6th, 2006, 07:18 PM
I want to know something-- how does the episode title actually relate to the episode? Because I can't really see it. Any ideas?
You have to actually ask this?, see the word used to describe the people who wrote it.

Trialia
December 6th, 2006, 07:21 PM
You have to actually ask this?, see the word used to describe the people who wrote it.
*laughs* This could be said. Though Irresistible was far more irresponsible. But why would the writers call it that?

jenks
December 6th, 2006, 07:22 PM
Hardly. In my country's law, if not in yours, people under the influence of alcohol or drugs like Lucius' herb can't legally consent.

Since when? So you're telling me that if two drunken adults meet each other in a club and end up having sex, they're raping eachother?

Trialia
December 6th, 2006, 07:26 PM
Since when? So you're telling me that if two drunken adults meet each other in a club and end up having sex, they're raping eachother?
A different section applies if they're both under the influence, but in this situation that wasn't the case.

Lt. Colonel Ryu Gaia
December 6th, 2006, 07:36 PM
Yeah, but you see, the ladies weren't under the influence of Lucius' drug. All it did was bring out something in Lucius. It was something that Lucius' own body had the potential to produce, and Lucius simply took advantage of that to make himself a more attractive person.

Flowerbud
December 6th, 2006, 07:39 PM
While i am aware that sexual assault/non-con sex is not a joke amongst some, not everyone may share your particular point of view.


This discussion just makes me sad. It's 2006 and the issue of sexaul assault of women is just not taken seriously by many people.

The writers/producers of Stargate Atlantis trivialized the issue of sexual assault/non-consensual sex by presenting it as a humorous, lighthearted thing. It's that jarring disconnect between the horror of rape and the la de da tone of isn't it hilarious that a fat, loathesome man is getting sex from all these gorgeous women in push-up bras who wouldn't otherwise have sex with him.

Trialia is right. Sexault assault against women won't decrease if the media keeps sending out the message that date rape is okay. I know Ken C. stated that the writers had no intention of condoning rape, but unfortunately, a good number of viewers have had this negative reaction and see it exactly as dismissing rape by fostering an environment that condones rape.

In Irresitible, the issue of Lucius's date rape and likely future date rape of the Weir and Teyla was treated lightly. Wasn't it hilarious seeing Weir's humiliation at the end of the episode? You know she could have become another wife for him to degrade. It was just disgusting how the whole thing was treated like a joke. (I'm referring to Irresitible, have not seen Irresponsible).

I think it's perfectly reasonable to ask the writers and producers to be more responsible and consider the broader ramifications of their storylines

Trialia
December 6th, 2006, 07:40 PM
Yeah, but you see, the ladies weren't under the influence of Lucius' drug. All it did was bring out something in Lucius. It was something that Lucius' own body had the potential to produce, and Lucius simply took advantage of that to make himself a more attractive person.
I suggest you re-read the biologist's explanation of how it worked, Ryu - then you'll see what I'm getting at. They were chemically influenced, which means that they didn't consent with no mental impairment, which legally means that they didn't consent at all.

Flowerbud-- thank you. That's exactly how I felt about it on a personal level - as though what happened to me was being trivialised all over again as it was the first time I actually spoke out about it. I will never be able to accept that kind of irresponsible behaviour from people with so much influence. Millions of people watch this show. It only takes one idiot in that multitude...

ShadowMaat
December 6th, 2006, 07:41 PM
There were no rape drugs involved in Irresponsible, though, just a village conveniently full of idiots. :P

Trialia
December 6th, 2006, 07:45 PM
There were no rape drugs involved in Irresponsible, though, just a village conveniently full of idiots. :P
Didn't Ken himself say the words "love potion"? Chemical concoction to help induce an emotion or behaviour in another human being = "drug". If it's used to facilitate marriages like it was in this episode, it's legally rape, therefore, "rape drugs" were, in fact, involved.

Luz
December 6th, 2006, 07:47 PM
There were no rape drugs involved in Irresponsible, though, just a village conveniently full of idiots. :P

I lost a few braincells watching it, I want them back, and those minutes I wasted are forever lost too.

Trialia
December 6th, 2006, 07:49 PM
I lost a few braincells watching it, I want them back, and those minutes I wasted are forever lost too.
I highly appreciate the giggle you just made me crack. :D

Nolamom
December 6th, 2006, 07:49 PM
I lost a few braincells watching it, I want them back, and those minutes I wasted are forever lost too.

too late

Ol'Merlin
December 6th, 2006, 07:49 PM
There were no rape drugs involved in Irresponsible, though, just a village conveniently full of idiots. :P

That's funny, I only saw actors there....;)

jonno
December 6th, 2006, 07:53 PM
There were no rape drugs involved in Irresponsible, though, just a village conveniently full of idiots. :P


Didn't Ken himself say the words "love potion"? Chemical concoction to help induce an emotion or behaviour in another human being = "drug". If it's used to facilitate marriages like it was in this episode, it's legally rape, therefore, "rape drugs" were, in fact, involved.

*cough* Irresponsible, not irresistable *cough* ;) :p

I think Shad's subtle(?) point was more that we're going a little off topic - it's the IRRESPONSIBLE disc thread (yes, i know i'm a tad guilty too), especially considering Sky's top of the page warning ;)

Trialia
December 6th, 2006, 07:57 PM
*cough* Irresponsible, not irresistable *cough* ;) :p

I think Shad's subtle(?) point was more that we're going a little off topic - it's the IRRESPONSIBLE disc thread (yes, i know i'm a tad guilty too), especially considering Sky's top of the page warning ;)
Oh, right. Okay. Apologies, Shadow! :P

It is four in the morning here, I should probably get some sleep. But if you remember, jonno, I did try to redirect the conversation back to Irresponsible, but other people sidetracked it again. :P

Nolamom
December 6th, 2006, 08:10 PM
I'm *still* trying to figure out (without much success) how anyone could believe that the showdown with a great villian belonged in the same episode as a buffoon like Lucius...
http://i77.photobucket.com/albums/j55/Nolamom/Stargate%20Stuff/bur2.gif

Lauriel
December 6th, 2006, 08:18 PM
I'm *still* trying to figure out (without much success) how anyone could believe that the showdown with a great villian belonged in the same episode as a buffoon like Lucius...
http://i77.photobucket.com/albums/j55/Nolamom/Stargate%20Stuff/bur2.gif

*is frustrated* I agree wholeheartedly.

travis
December 6th, 2006, 08:19 PM
Let's get the bad stuff out of the way: I. HATE. VILLAGERS!!!.



LOL, pitty you can't delete them like you do in games.:D

Luz
December 6th, 2006, 08:19 PM
I'm *still* trying to figure out (without much success) how anyone could believe that the showdown with a great villian belonged in the same episode as a buffoon like Lucius...
http://i77.photobucket.com/albums/j55/Nolamom/Stargate%20Stuff/bur2.gif

u huh!, I'm still scratching my head over that one, maybe once I get over this WTF?! phase I'll start looking for the positives, for now... :beckettanime14:

jenks
December 6th, 2006, 08:26 PM
A different section applies if they're both under the influence, but in this situation that wasn't the case.

No, you're just talking utter rubbish, if I someone was sober walked into a bar and pulled someone who was drunk, that would not be rape. I live in England and there is no law saying you can't give consent when you're intoxicated as far as I'm aware, and if there is no one seems to take any notice of it...

Ace
December 6th, 2006, 08:30 PM
I have to admit, I might have set the bar so low for this episode, that I was generally pleased with it. I was not looking forward to Lucius at all, I couldn't stand him in his earlier episode. I didn't think he was funny, I didn't enjoy how all of Atlantis was swooning over him.

However I enjoyed this episode... certain parts were funny, certain parts ran a little long as I looked at my watch, but overall it was pretty decent. A nice filler episode.

I think it was funny, because it wasn't trying to be funny. Would I take it out of the DVD case to watch again? Probably not... but I didn't think it was half bad.

Ace

ShadowMaat
December 6th, 2006, 08:31 PM
I like these villagers better: http://www.freethought-forum.com/forum/images/smilies/The_Villagers_Are_Restless_by_Zikes.gif

While I loathe and despise the Lucius character, I think it would have been funnier if he'd tried to scam a village full of people who have more than one collective brain cell and that their reaction had been violent. Maybe he then calls Atlantis for help (using some plot device-y tech he pocketed or something) or maybe the team conveniently stumbles across his public execution, but he begs them for help and the team becomes involved in trying to save him from an ugly demise (because, after all, Team Atlantis is only slightly more intelligent than the villagers we did get :P) only to find themselves accused, too. They're brought before the Lord High Muckety-muck who is none other than Kolya. Turns out the village has a lot of Ancient tech at its disposal (and if we're going with the "we just happened to stumble upon this" route, that's the excuse to bring the team to the planet) and Kolya claims that he's been trying to improve life for the villagers to protect them from threats like Lucius... and the Wraith. He's also been figuring out/exploiting the tech and is going to demonstrate it on Team Atlantis in ways that will be painful and possibly fatal.

And then... whatever. There's grandstanding and snarking and ridiculous escape attempts and an Important Discovery and the revelation of Kolya's true purpose, a showdown, a death, the destruction of all the Ancient tech (because gods forbid we should get anything useful) and then the team heads home with their pockets still empty. Lucius opts to stay behind, claiming to have seen the error of his ways and that he wants to help the villagers in the wake of their leader's unfortunate demise. The team is stupid enough to believe him and they depart. Lucius pulls out some nifty piece of tech he'd secreted away and attempts to impress the villagers, who chase him out of town. http://www.freethought-forum.com/forum/images/smilies/_angrymob__by_Servial.gif

Lucius figures he's still golden because of the techie toy he has and that's when he stumbles upon a trap set by Kolya. He's left trapped (or dead) and the tech is thrown far out of his reach only to be discovered by a young boy (or girl) who thinks it's a real toy and takes it home.

There. Wasn't that better? :P

Trialia
December 6th, 2006, 08:32 PM
No, you're just talking utter rubbish, if I someone was sober walked into a bar and pulled someone who was drunk, that would not be rape. I live in England and there is no law saying you can't give consent when you're intoxicated as far as I'm aware, and if there is no one seems to take any notice of it...
Drunk isn't quite the same thing as drugged, and okay, there's nothing about drunkenness in there yet, but that wasn't my point. People under the influence of something like GHB when raped have been through successful prosecutions of their attackers in England.

Hardly anyone seems to take any notice of the age of consent law if there's only a year or so's difference in age either, that doesn't mean it doesn't exist.



And to the rest-- yes, it does suck to have Lucius and Kolya in the same episode. I liked Kolya. I would probably have enjoyed the ep were LL not involved.

Jeyla4ever
December 6th, 2006, 08:33 PM
Well, I probably shouldn't even write this....cause although I haven't read everything here...I get the feeling this was not a popular episode.

First, I didn't mind Lucious...he was less arrogant than he was the first time around...The team was great...No one really stood out and they all got great lines.....yeah, there was too much of Lucious....but, didn't you expect that...I did....go back to Irresistible...he got more on that one, I think....The mix of comedy with the angst was a good variety...a bit off at times...but still for me it worked...it was Lucius here afterall....

but I have to agree with everyone here..that the Koyla plot was lacking and so out of tune...at first I was fine with it...I mean that Koyla can make anyone shake their boots...even next to Lucious...so, I had no problem bringing those two together in the same episdoe...what I didn't like and I thought killed the entire opportunity...was the face off between John and Koyla...that deserved to be taken seriously considering the history that John and Koyla have together....and that was not well done....I"m hoping that somehow, Koyla got away with this one as well..like he did in the Eye and the writers can bring back a more appropriate confrontation between those two.....the scene just looked awkward.

but besides that....I loved the team moments...looooved Teyla up in the tree..she should have gotten a close up...LOL and I loved the whole Evil Keneivel/ Batman....and even Carson and Ronon got to say who their childhood heroes were...I wonder why Teyla didn't say anything....

and I loved how John wanted to go after Koyla...I'm surprised that he didn't instinctively do it once he saw him....and the fact that Teyla was able to change his mind reminds me of the scene in Letters from Pegasus and Allies between those two....they can have a difference of opinion but somehow Teyla can persuade John to reality and the facts...

I didn't think it's the best...but unlike others here...I don't think it was the worse by far......I enjoyed it and would watch it again...

Thanks Mallozzi and Mullie....sorry guys...I just love team episodes....

EDITED: forgot to add...I LOOOOVED the part when the team stands up for Rodney, first Ronon, then immediately followed by Teyla and Carson....CLASSIC!....again...just great team moments in here mixed in with the rest of the stuff.....

jenks
December 6th, 2006, 08:36 PM
Although there were bits I liked, overall I think the episode sucked. Kolya's death was wasted, Sheppard Vs. Kolya would of made an episode in itself without the Lucius comedy side, although I am begining to like his character more, he was much better in this ep than the last imo...

smushybird
December 6th, 2006, 08:55 PM
I'm really glad to see that the fans of Stargate are such a noble breed, really I am. But if you had a phermone (be it spray on, or a tasty beverage) that you could drink, that would make Angelina Jolie (or Brad Pitt - however your tastes may run) fall hopelessly in love with you -- can you honestly say you wouldn't use it. Honestly? Do you have that kind of self control?

For me it wouldn't be an issue of self-control. I wouldn't want to induce love or lust in another person, however attractive (even adorable Rodney) by fake means.... It would be a meaningless relationship. Didn't you ever see the Twilight Zone episode where the man magically got everything he ever wanted--and he was miserable? There's no satisfaction in having everything handed over to you, even someone you're in love with. If they're not falling in love with the real you--it's a hollow, lonely triumph and always will be.

Two things I would like to see in future Atlantis episodes:

More character stories, and I mean the characters already on the show! Not guest characters. I want to know more about Sheppard, McKay, Teyla, Ronon, etc. I'm hungry for that information and I hate to see whole episodes wasted on stories with no honest, involving meat to them.

And I would like to see a civilization for once that isn't Lord of the Rings fake-medieval. There are so many viable, fascinating eras of history to use as a setting for stories on other planets. I understand production costs, etc, and how you like to re-use sets, and that the whole medieval fearful village thing is useful for different types of (usually preachy) storytelling--

But you're missing some awesome opportunities here. True, you have had a few eps with some different worlds, but way too many medievals and they are adding to the repetitive story perception. Try something new. Go wild. Have fun with it. And explore the personalities and backgrounds of our regular characters please! You were doing great with Sateda... Keep going!

Amalthia
December 6th, 2006, 09:09 PM
This episode was disappointing. Mainly, because it's an insult to anyone that has a shred of intelligence. Do the writers even watch the show????

I couldn't get past huge gaping plot hole, that was the shield device. I'm sorry it's not that hard to change to the color of the shield when it activates and says it works differently from the one they found on Atlantis, maybe an inferior prototype or something?

Then there was Kolya, a completely wasted opportunity. I expected more.

At the moment SGA is competing against Heroes, Torchwood, Doctor Who, Battlestar Galactica, and a lot of other good tv shows. SGA cannot really afford to be producing sub-standard episodes if they want a fifth season.

The other major disappointment this episode was the scene where everyone got to mention who their hero was except Teyla? WTF???? Are guys the only ones allowed to have heros?

I really feel that every character on Sheppard's team needs at least one episode a season, maybe even two episodes, devoted to that character.

People keep mentioning how boring Weir and Teyla are but come on guys...they aren't exactly given a lot now are they?

I'm not expecting Heros or Battlestar Galactica character development type stuff...but I do feel rather put out when the women characters in the show are given the shaft multiple times when it comes developing their characters, while their male counterparts and various guest stars get more screen time.

I don't even want to talk about the idiot villagers.

The stupid in this episode hurt.

HyperCaz
December 6th, 2006, 09:17 PM
EDITED: forgot to add...I LOOOOVED the part when the team stands up for Rodney, first Ronon, then immediately followed by Teyla and Carson....CLASSIC!....again...just great team moments in here mixed in with the rest of the stuff.....

Hehe yeah that was great, stole Rodney's thunder. I agree there were some good team moments in the episode but they would have functioned better in a proper action context. I like to see that they actually care about each other.

FoolishPleasure
December 6th, 2006, 09:25 PM
This discussion just makes me sad. It's 2006 and the issue of sexaul assault of women is just not taken seriously by many people.

The writers/producers of Stargate Atlantis trivialized the issue of sexual assault/non-consensual sex . . .

The issue of the treatment of women in Stargate actually goes way back, but it seems to be worse on SGA. These two "Lucius" episodes seem to be the straw that broke the camel's back for a lot of fans.

I'll point out a couple other instances, such as "Conversion" where Sheppard supposedly kissed Teyla. MANY of us saw it as an assault, as Teyla was obviously fearful of John's new "abilities". If Beckett hadn't interrupted via the intercom, what would have happened? (lots of discussion already done on this in the "Conversion" eppy thread, btw). Our hero "forcing" himself on a female, was not very pretty, but the writers obviously enjoyed it.

"The Tower" gave us a bimbo who resembled a high school cheerleader, yet when she "came on" to Sheppard, he didn't seem able to control himself. The fact that a 40-year old Air Force colonel couldn't say NO to a teenager so infuriated my husband that he has refused to watch this show since then.

In "Inferno", the female scientist wanders around in a bit of a ditzy state, in what appears to be a cheap, tight evening gown, while both male leads flirt with her mercilessly. I didn't find that funny either.

Those are just a few OTHER examples of how the SGA writers are simply writing out their boyhood fantasies without showing any respect for women. They show no respect for their female guest stars, and even less for their two female leads, who are frequently in scenes only for boob appeal and very few lines (if any). "Irresistible" and "Irresponsible" are just two more for the burn pile.

I'm still waiting for SGA episodes that really highlight women (Binder and Gero come the closest). I want to see Elizabeth and Teyla save the universe - working together, without the guys, and I want to see "older" women who are beautiful and intelligent - you know, like 30 years old, at least. ;) Even better, we need cool women like SG1's Catherine, or the vile and wonderful Linea.

On SG1, Carter was an officer, so had to wear the standard uniform. We didn't need to focus on her chest to know she was a woman, and the writers were forced to actually write interesting episodes for her. It would be nice if the writers could extend the same courtesy to Elizabeth and Teyla on SGA.

Trialia
December 6th, 2006, 09:27 PM
Green for you FP, I totally agree with all of that.

IWKYZerocool
December 6th, 2006, 11:15 PM
mmmm what can I say about this epsiode, the best part was at the end when Sheppard shot Koyla in the heart. Should of been a better shootout though, also when Mckay tried to get out of a cell by using a spoon.
Other then that it sounds like Lucius has changed abit, I skipped most of the epsiode as i could not stand Lucius voice. Not the best epsiode made but as I love watching SGA I will watch it again.

Mitchell82
December 6th, 2006, 11:21 PM
Well I won't read all 396 responses but my wife and I just watched it and here are my impressions. First off I enjoyed Irresistable but did find Lucius annoying but it was still a good episode. This one was better IMO and we really enjoyed it. It was very exciting and funny and I really enjoyed the showdown with Koyla. I am disapointed with his demise but he could still come back. I really can't find any problems with this epiosde and all in all I thing it was a great filler episode. 9/10. Also I really don't think M&M are bad writers I really think if they are on full time in season 4 it will still be great. All this doom and gloom is not necesarry as i don't se the show in any danger.

Michelle05
December 6th, 2006, 11:22 PM
I'm glad I watched the episode without reading (actually, skimming) this thread and being influenced... I thought it was a fun 43 minutes! Even though the setting wasn't western, it was pretty clear a western story was going on all along... Lucius even wore the shield where the town sheriff would wear a badge! I thought it was funny, had good character moments, some good bits of drama... and I think it was time for John to put an end to Kolya. There was some good angst when Teyla stopped John from taking him out from the hotel window. It was clear why he wanted to... I don't think it needed to be said. I didn't see the Genii coming at all and loved when the ep turned more dramatic there.

I thought this was way better than Irrestible. Not as good as Echoes, but I liked it! Am I the only one???

Mitchell82
December 6th, 2006, 11:26 PM
Well, I probably shouldn't even write this....cause although I haven't read everything here...I get the feeling this was not a popular episode.

First, I didn't mind Lucious...he was less arrogant than he was the first time around...The team was great...No one really stood out and they all got great lines.....yeah, there was too much of Lucious....but, didn't you expect that...I did....go back to Irresistible...he got more on that one, I think....The mix of comedy with the angst was a good variety...a bit off at times...but still for me it worked...it was Lucius here afterall....

but I have to agree with everyone here..that the Koyla plot was lacking and so out of tune...at first I was fine with it...I mean that Koyla can make anyone shake their boots...even next to Lucious...so, I had no problem bringing those two together in the same episdoe...what I didn't like and I thought killed the entire opportunity...was the face off between John and Koyla...that deserved to be taken seriously considering the history that John and Koyla have together....and that was not well done....I"m hoping that somehow, Koyla got away with this one as well..like he did in the Eye and the writers can bring back a more appropriate confrontation between those two.....the scene just looked awkward.

but besides that....I loved the team moments...looooved Teyla up in the tree..she should have gotten a close up...LOL and I loved the whole Evil Keneivel/ Batman....and even Carson and Ronon got to say who their childhood heroes were...I wonder why Teyla didn't say anything....

and I loved how John wanted to go after Koyla...I'm surprised that he didn't instinctively do it once he saw him....and the fact that Teyla was able to change his mind reminds me of the scene in Letters from Pegasus and Allies between those two....they can have a difference of opinion but somehow Teyla can persuade John to reality and the facts...

I didn't think it's the best...but unlike others here...I don't think it was the worse by far......I enjoyed it and would watch it again...

Thanks Mallozzi and Mullie....sorry guys...I just love team episodes....

EDITED: forgot to add...I LOOOOVED the part when the team stands up for Rodney, first Ronon, then immediately followed by Teyla and Carson....CLASSIC!....again...just great team moments in here mixed in with the rest of the stuff.....

I agree with most of your points. I actually really loved the epiosde and I agree the Koyla part could have been better but i think it was handled fine. Only part I didnt like is that Dr. Weir didnt have a chance to smack Lucius. I like the charactere but I still wanted some interaction between them.

StarsAlign
December 6th, 2006, 11:30 PM
FoolishPleasure--Great post. All the SG-1 and Atlantis writers, producers and other PTB should be chained to their desks and forced to read that over and over until they finally get the picture. The treatment of women in the Stargate universe has been and continues to be absolutely abysmal.

An-Alteran
December 6th, 2006, 11:35 PM
I am so not the guy to be answering technical questions. I can't even get my toaster to brown both sides of the bread equally.

Who would be?

By the way, I actually thouhgt Irresponsible was pretty good, deffinately not the bomb everyone else was saying it was.
I certainly like gritty episodes better, but this was certainly good.:)

Also: Who's idea whas it to destroy the Orion?
I maen seriously:
We find Aurora, it gets blown up.
We find Orion, It gets blown up.
We get a Hive ship, it gets blown up.
What is the deal?:P

I think all the fans would love it if we found a good Ancient ship that WORKED and above all SURVIVED!:cameron:

Glad that you are on the forum BTW.:)


For me it wouldn't be an issue of self-control. I wouldn't want to induce love or lust in another person, however attractive (even adorable Rodney) by fake means.... It would be a meaningless relationship. Didn't you ever see the Twilight Zone episode where the man magically got everything he ever wanted--and he was miserable? There's no satisfaction in having everything handed over to you, even someone you're in love with. If they're not falling in love with the real you--it's a hollow, lonely triumph and always will be.

Two things I would like to see in future Atlantis episodes:

More character stories, and I mean the characters already on the show! Not guest characters. I want to know more about Sheppard, McKay, Teyla, Ronon, etc. I'm hungry for that information and I hate to see whole episodes wasted on stories with no honest, involving meat to them.

And I would like to see a civilization for once that isn't Lord of the Rings fake-medieval. There are so many viable, fascinating eras of history to use as a setting for stories on other planets. I understand production costs, etc, and how you like to re-use sets, and that the whole medieval fearful village thing is useful for different types of (usually preachy) storytelling--

But you're missing some awesome opportunities here. True, you have had a few eps with some different worlds, but way too many medievals and they are adding to the repetitive story perception. Try something new. Go wild. Have fun with it. And explore the personalities and backgrounds of our regular characters please! You were doing great with Sateda... Keep going!
That town was a different era.
Not midieval, more 18th Century Middle Class European.

Quinn Mallory
December 6th, 2006, 11:49 PM
Mostly enjoyable episode. It had some of the same problem as Irresistable but had more action with the Genii subplot. Koylia dying was a bit of a surprise but the plot was otherwise a bit too predictable. It's also not quite as humorous as Irresistable. Anyhow, it was an entertaining hour but subpar episode in the grand scheme of SGA episodes.

SoulReaver
December 7th, 2006, 12:27 AM
I agree some of u guys are being way too harsh on the writers - it's not like they had much to go with in the 1st place (including another planet 17th century earth-style village setting, etc.)

my only major gripe is with the inconsistencies surrounding the personal shield . although if I may venture a few guesses (not to close the plot hole but at least make 'em smaller -)

- Lucius didn't "drown" - the shield lets air through it and when held underwater well there was no air . the shield held back the water but he didn't get air either since he was underwater

- Lucius could eat & drink - seems contradictory with McKay's previous ordeal with the shield but remember it's a "mind thing" (shield can only be deactivated by will) - maybe Lucius figured out how to temporarily deactivate it by mere thought or something

JayShadow
December 7th, 2006, 12:28 AM
I'm *still* trying to figure out (without much success) how anyone could believe that the showdown with a great villian belonged in the same episode as a buffoon like Lucius...
http://i77.photobucket.com/albums/j55/Nolamom/Stargate%20Stuff/bur2.gif

I believe it's a great example of a bigger issue with the Stargate franchise that I feel became the eventual demise of SG-1. The writers and even the actors take pride in the fact that they can do drama and they can do comedy and mix it all into the same episode. The problem is that they don't realize somewhere along the way they stopped mixing the two in an effective way. After 10 years and now 2 shows they can't look at their own work objectively and decide when the comedy and the drama don't fit together and a change has to be made. They've fallen in love with the punchline.

I like the humor of the characters, but I feel like it's really being overdone on both shows at this point. The banter between Rodney and Shepard is getting very repetitive. Last year in Inferno they had Shepard putting extra pressure on Rodney because he works better under the threat of impending death. It was actually kinda funny the first time. Now that happens in 3/4ths of the episodes. It's the same way Vala had to make a genaric comment about men over compensating for something in every episode at the beginning of last season. When they find a good dynamic, every writer has to capitalize on it. Instead of having a fresh take on the material, they beat the same jokes into the ground.

The humor is what drew me into the show in the first place. It was these incredible situations, but the people reacted like normal human beings instead of robots. Smart ass remark here and there. Some light moments sprinkled around. Now it's gotten to the point where they can't establish a consistent tone for an episode to save their lives. Dramatic moments what would have felt satisfying in the past are now undercut by comedy at inappropriate times.

Irresponsible was an example of another problem with tone where they crammed what could have been a dramatic, important moment into an episode that few people are going to be watching again unless they're just that hardcore of a fan. It just seems like one of many wasted opportunities recently.

Company of Thieves was a great example on SG1 this year of the same problem and if for some reason you haven't seen it yet, skip to the next part. Emerson gets shot. Great dramatic moment. Amanda Tapping sells the emotion of the situation wonderfully. Finally maybe they'll establish the Lucian Alliance as someone we should give a crap about. Next time we see Carter the Vala and Daniel comedy hour rolls into town and a character dying that could have been a big deal is now pretty much reduced to no impact at all. Then to cap it off, on AOL they have a video recap with the actors talking about how proud they are of the sense of humor they have even in dramatic situations.

It's kinda like the Prometheus blowing up last year in a great episode and suddenly the Odyssey that was never mentioned before is ready to go in the next episode. They'll probably just throw another bad guy in to replace Kolya and start the cycle all over again. The importance of all of these events is completely lost.

So it seems like they think they've gotten the comedy and drama formula down to a science and they aren't even close. You could take every comedic moment from the shows and stick them together into a clip show and it would be hilarious. You could stick the dramatic moments together in a clip show and it could be moving. Unfortunately, if you stick those scenes together the way they've been put together in the past few years, and you get an okay, flat, sort of neutral episode. They do get it right on occasion, but there are very few episodes that I feel the want to go back and watch again anymore.

There's some great commentary attached to the movie Serenity when Joss Whedon was talking about how in one cut of the film there were 4 jokes at Mal's expense in a small window of time, and then there was a scene where they fooled the bad guys with a fake grenade. They were all funny moments, but it took someone outside of the production to say "hey, how are we supposed to look at him seriously as the hero with this many jokes at his expense. How are we supposed to take these bad guys as a threat if they're fooled that easily?" It seems like the Stargate franchise lost that objective eye along the way. It seems like they need an outside source to let them know when they killed the mood or weakened a character for 1 good punchline.

I don't post much, so I guess I had to get my general rant out, and this episode was a pretty good launching point ;)

SoulReaver
December 7th, 2006, 12:30 AM
btw for those who think Kolya ain't dead - he's dead . get over it . unless Lia was nearby or something, which somehow I doubt
(or unless Kolya ascended, which is even more doubtful -)

HyperCaz
December 7th, 2006, 12:41 AM
btw for those who think Kolya ain't dead - he's dead . get over it . unless Lia was nearby or something, which somehow I doubt
(or unless Kolya ascended, which is even more doubtful -)

lol that would be lowering the bar for ascension :D

SoulReaver
December 7th, 2006, 12:49 AM
lol that would be lowering the bar for ascension :Dnot if the ancients descend him - then we'd have a worthy successor to Anubis http://img.presence-pc.com/forum/images/perso/djoce.gif

HyperCaz
December 7th, 2006, 12:52 AM
not if the ancients descend him - then we'd have a worthy successor to Anubis :sheppardanime21:

Genii IS close enough to "Jedi"... :D :D

I agree that we won't be seeing Kolya again, mostly because of the way he went (and others will say we WILL be seeing him again for that same reason lol). He was disposed hastily and while I'll miss the git, I suppose it's nice to have a little closure.

Agent_Dark
December 7th, 2006, 12:55 AM
Zombie Koyla? :O

bluealien
December 7th, 2006, 12:56 AM
*rolls eyes at whole rape debate*

What does it matter whether what Lucius did was technically rape or not? What he did was wrong, bad, evil. But he was a VILLAIN, for heaven's sake--even if he was a villain hiding under a thin layer of cheesy comedy. He was supposed to be evil! By definition, bad guys do bad things.

Why is it that no one had a problem with villains who tortured people, murdered people, overthrew governments in violent coups...but this one villain whose crime happened to be taking advantage of women sets off a firestorm?

If someone wants to be mad, maybe they should be mad at the viewers who didn't see past the "funny" layer to the real evil within, not the writers who simply tried to write a different kind of villain for a change (which I personally appreciate -- haven't we complained in other threads about too many episodes being the same all the time?)

WB


Very well said ..

SoulReaver
December 7th, 2006, 01:05 AM
Genii IS close enough to "Jedi"... :D :Dghost-Kolya coming back to taunt Sheppard hehe :sheppardanime21:

I admit I'm gonna miss the guy (hey he did make a fine villain) but on the other hand also gotta admit he was becoming annoying getting away all the time :|

bluealien
December 7th, 2006, 01:05 AM
Well for me it was certaintly NOT the "worst ep ever".

I enjoyed it and am really surprised at the reaction here. It wasn't the best ep but certaintly not the worst. It had some great team moments and some funny lines.

Lucius to me was not nearly as annoying as he was in Irrresistable and I enjoyed the story. Yeah it had some plotholes but so have many eps but it still entertained me.


I liked the ending where Shep and Koyla faced off and didn't really have a problem with the way Koyla died. You could see the anger in Shep from the moment he saw him.

So all in all not the worst ep and not the best.

Aussie_Fan
December 7th, 2006, 02:37 AM
I watched the episode for the first time today and I have to say, it wasn't as bad as everyone was making it out to be. Sure it wasn't one of the best, but it wasn't the worst either.

The only floor I found in this ep was the shield being used by other people. But really that was nothing. Look at how many times it's been done in SG1! Nothing to make such a big fuss about.

I do hope we never see Lucius again though. He's probably the worst character the writers have come up with to date :P

FallenAngelII
December 7th, 2006, 03:05 AM
The Nutty Professor changes himself. It's like plastic surgery. A lot of *******s get upset when they sleep with a woman and discover their boobs are fake. But it doesn't change the fact that the Nutty Professor only changes himself.

Now, what the "Irresistible" drug does is release a strong pheromone that not only makes you like a person more, you become their slave. Teyla, Rodney, Carson and Ronon, four (often times) sound and intelligent people wandered off onto a Wraith infested planet to retrieve something I believe Lucius described as "good tea" or whatnot.

All of Atlantis turned on John and threatened to kill him. It's safe to say they lost their free will and rational sense.

Now, when you change yourself like the Nutty Professor, you're simply deceiving people. Sure, the women who automatically wanted to sleep with him because he's, oh, sexy and thin are, well, sluts. At least get to know him and find out he's an ******* first.

But that aside, if they do choose to sleep with him, they'll be sleeping with him out of their own free will. OK, so he's sharing his body with a big blob of a man but at least the woman has the free will to stop sleeping with him if he changes back and whack him over the head with a giant spatula.

Now, with Lucius' drug, you're not doing it out of your own free will. You lost that free will the moment you'd spend 1 hour in his presence sans cold. He could tell you to jump off the highest balcony in Atlantis and you'd do it. Obviously no one's going to say "No" when he says "Sleep with me!", no matter how adverse they might be to the idea without the drug in their system.

It's not considered rape if a woman (or a man) drinks themselves recklessly drunk and then sleep with someone (unless she resists it and tries to fight him off). However, in the eyes of the law, it is considered rape to have the woman get recklessly drunk or drugged (by providing the stimulants yourself or by forcing her to take it) to then sleep with her when she's incapacitated. It's the same with drugging people.

Those products that promise to make you more attractive to the opposite sex someone found on the Internet, if they do alter someone's mind or drug them, yes, then they'd be illegal. But how many times haven't you been emailed with emails about pills that make your penis bigger or whatever?

What Lucius did to those people was rape. There's no way around it.

I'm surprised the team let Lucius go. I mean, he's after all a heinous villain. Not only that, he'd read their mission reports. He knew a lot about Atlantis. What if the Wraith found him, what then?

silence
December 7th, 2006, 03:10 AM
I'm surprised the team let Lucius go. I mean, he's after all a heinous villain. Not only that, he'd read their mission reports. He knew a lot about Atlantis. What if the Wraith found him, what then?


That's why i started thread just to point to all stupid things in 3x13.
I forgot that one... specially after what he did to them last time, now they let him go after he tells them he read every damn thing in their database... suuurrreee...

caty
December 7th, 2006, 03:12 AM
This episode was disappointing. Mainly, because it's an insult to anyone that has a shred of intelligence. Do the writers even watch the show????

I couldn't get past huge gaping plot hole, that was the shield device. I'm sorry it's not that hard to change to the color of the shield when it activates and says it works differently from the one they found on Atlantis, maybe an inferior prototype or something?

Insult to anyone who has a shred of intelligence? So I didn't feel like it was an insult and I liked the episode. Does that mean I do not have a shred of intelligence? How very, very judgemental of you...
Yes, the shield was a major plot hole, I think we all agree on that. It was annoying as hell, too. Still not enough to ruin it for me...




The other major disappointment this episode was the scene where everyone got to mention who their hero was except Teyla? WTF???? Are guys the only ones allowed to have heros?
Maybe Teyla didn't have a hero.. She really seems the down-to-earth kind of woman who had to take responsibility very early in her life. Maybe there is no time for heroes when you're under the constant threat to have the life sucked out of you...



I really feel that every character on Sheppard's team needs at least one episode a season, maybe even two episodes, devoted to that character.

People keep mentioning how boring Weir and Teyla are but come on guys...they aren't exactly given a lot now are they?
Agree 100%, we should have more development for our characters, especially Teyla and Weir. But I don't understand why you use Teyla in this episode to complain about it?
She had more character development than Rodney did (and he is the one who gets most). The scene when she talked Shep out of shooting Kolya alone proved how much influence she has on him and how much he respects her opinion. I thought that was very well written and I caught myself thinking 'Wow, Teyla gets something important to say'



I don't even want to talk about the idiot villagers.

The stupid in this episode hurt.

Well, the villagers were clearly a few centuries behind in development than we are. You can't just say that people are stupid because that's just how they might have been a few centuries ago. Do you think that people in the 15th century were stupid because they believed in witchcraft? Or that people thought homosexuality is a disease just a few decades ago are stupid?
It all depends on the level of thinking which changes as time goes on.
These people believed in a hero who could save their lives, so putting yourself in their position, can you blame them that they were acting the way the did?

That is the problem with us today understanding historic events. We can't apply our way of thinking and blame the people for being stupid.
Maybe in a few hundered years, people will think we are stupid because we were having war with our own people and letting children starve in some parts of our world (I am applying my positive image of the future here :D)

Trialia
December 7th, 2006, 03:19 AM
Maybe in a few hundered years, people will think we are stupid because we were having war with our own people and letting children starve in some parts of our world (I am applying my positive image of the future here :D)

Actually, I think that now. :P I just don't have the influence and support or the good health to try to start helping to deal with it.

TBH, half the time I don't know whether I should love the world for what it is or hate it for what it's done to so many people over millennia. One of my great spiritual struggles.

Time moves on. Perspectives change.

FallenAngelII
December 7th, 2006, 03:19 AM
The villagers were stupid not because they were technologically inferior to us or might or might have believed in munchkin.

They were stupid because:
* They immediately took Lucius' side when SGA-1 returned with that one guy with the limp wrist
* They still took his side when he utterly failed to fight off Kolya and his men, even with invincibility
* They still thought of him as a hero when he told him he couldn't help them this time and rationalized that he was trying to teach them to be more independent.
* Didn't question the fact that John was suddenly wearing Lucius' shield of invincibility.

silence
December 7th, 2006, 03:30 AM
Actually, I think that now. :P I just don't have the influence and support or the good health to try to start helping to deal with it.

TBH, half the time I don't know whether I should love the world for what it is or hate it for what it's done to so many people over millennia. One of my great spiritual struggles.

Time moves on. Perspectives change.

Another good post. And i agree with you on stupidity issue present in our own world. Most people are like sheep. But those villagers are way over the top.

If there was religious reason, anything at all except that he saved village once, i would say OK, people are like that.

Argh....

Wolf Eire
December 7th, 2006, 03:48 AM
The issue of the treatment of women in Stargate actually goes way back, but it seems to be worse on SGA. These two "Lucius" episodes seem to be the straw that broke the camel's back for a lot of fans.

I'll point out a couple other instances, such as "Conversion" where Sheppard supposedly kissed Teyla. MANY of us saw it as an assault, as Teyla was obviously fearful of John's new "abilities". If Beckett hadn't interrupted via the intercom, what would have happened? (lots of discussion already done on this in the "Conversion" eppy thread, btw). Our hero "forcing" himself on a female, was not very pretty, but the writers obviously enjoyed it.

"The Tower" gave us a bimbo who resembled a high school cheerleader, yet when she "came on" to Sheppard, he didn't seem able to control himself. The fact that a 40-year old Air Force colonel couldn't say NO to a teenager so infuriated my husband that he has refused to watch this show since then.

In "Inferno", the female scientist wanders around in a bit of a ditzy state, in what appears to be a cheap, tight evening gown, while both male leads flirt with her mercilessly. I didn't find that funny either.

Those are just a few OTHER examples of how the SGA writers are simply writing out their boyhood fantasies without showing any respect for women. They show no respect for their female guest stars, and even less for their two female leads, who are frequently in scenes only for boob appeal and very few lines (if any). "Irresistible" and "Irresponsible" are just two more for the burn pile.



Exactly! SGA's message is that women are always available. In a lot of academic literature this is considered to be the type of very dangerous message that can encourage sexual violence. I'll reiterate the point, the women in this episode seemed as big nymphomaniacs and easily seduced as the women in Irresistible yet this time there was no drug involved at all. Women just aren't like that.

Callie
December 7th, 2006, 03:58 AM
With Lucius basing his stories on reports he’d read on Atlantis, I did giggle at his promise to tell the townspeople how he was almost seduced by a beautiful Ancient, especially when he said to Carson that the story wasn’t all that entertaining. Obviously TPTB know what the viewers think of Sanctuary!

Perhaps it’s a Shaun of the Dead thing, but when Haemon’s cronies surrounded Lucius and started trying to beat him up with planks of wood, I wanted to burst into a rousing chorus of “Don’t Stop Me Now.”

I thought that Cowen’s personal elite guard were all with him when he got nuked in Coup d’Etat?

Did anyone else notice that just as the final scene fades to black, Carson puts his arm around Teyla?!!!! :eek:

silence
December 7th, 2006, 04:01 AM
I thought that Cowen’s personal elite guard were all with him when he got nuked in Coup d’Etat?



i thought that also...

/adding more plotholes to list

Alipeeps
December 7th, 2006, 04:02 AM
Perhaps it’s a Shaun of the Dead thing, but when Haemon’s cronies surrounded Lucius and started trying to beat him up with planks of wood, I wanted to burst into a rousing chorus of “Don’t Stop Me Now.”

*BWAH!* Okay... now I will never be able to see that scene in the same way... :lol:



Did anyone else notice that just as the final scene fades to black, Carson puts his arm around Teyla?!!!! :eek:

Really? Hmmmm... must rewatch that and have a look... :D

caty
December 7th, 2006, 04:06 AM
Actually, I think that now. :P I just don't have the influence and support or the good health to try to start helping to deal with it.

TBH, half the time I don't know whether I should love the world for what it is or hate it for what it's done to so many people over millennia. One of my great spiritual struggles.

Time moves on. Perspectives change.

OMG, so do I! Totally!! The point I was getting at is that we can't really comprehend how people acted back then. We don't have the means to.
We are doing stupid things in our world, so they can't be "stupid" in their way?
I don't see a lot of people effectivally changing our world, so why blame others for not changing theirs? It's not that easy.. (This is getting way out of hand :))

Of course these people need a lot to make them lose trust in Lucius! They have a pure image of him. Still don't think that's neccessarily stupid in the sense some here do.. IMO short-sighted and naiive would be a better term to describe them.

HyperCaz
December 7th, 2006, 04:18 AM
Did anyone else notice that just as the final scene fades to black, Carson puts his arm around Teyla?!!!!

ME!! I did!! *squee* And there's a Carson/Teyla ship thread for anyone interested in pursuing the ship further... :D :D :D

TJuk
December 7th, 2006, 04:41 AM
ME!! I did!! *squee* And there's a Carson/Teyla ship thread for anyone interested in pursuing the ship further... :D :D :D

LMAO...oh Cazzy, how did I guess you'd just LOVE that little moment??? Um...question, did Teyla actually say anything in the ep? Or was she just...well there? She's been SO underused this season. :(

Oh and Teyla up a tree. Complete no reason for her to be up there (well sorta perching on the lower branches) which was silly but I remembered the story P McG told about the boys throwing stones at her and poking her with sticks between takes. When the camera went past they looked like a bunch of naughty boys!!! hehehe

HyperCaz
December 7th, 2006, 04:45 AM
Teyla was showing more expressions than usual, imo. She actually looked very ticked off about Lucius and she used sarcasm!! *gasp* I love her character...really want to see more range than the "stoic alien woman".

EDIT: TJuk you know me too damn well... :D

prion
December 7th, 2006, 04:49 AM
Well, going off on a completely different tangent. I realized this after I turned the PC off last night. Geez,this episode is a retread of SG1's "It's Good to be King" (written by M&M as well).

It's the same premise. Unctuous character who has given the team grief in the past shows up as someone sorta ruling a village (whatever). Bad guys come into town. Must work together to cleanup mess. Unctuous character gets away. Also had several wives. (What is it with guys wanting several wives??)

Anyway, it was done better on SG1. Should have been done just once....

FallenAngelII
December 7th, 2006, 05:03 AM
I just thought of something concerning attraction being chemical:
But what if attraction is merely chemical, anyway? Do you sleep with just about anyone you find attractive? Do you jump into the sack with people you find to be complete *******s as long as your brain's telling you you like the way they look?

Would you not feel ashamed and violated were you to be forced through a drug to do those things?

macktheknife
December 7th, 2006, 05:06 AM
(What is it with guys wanting several wives??)


The more you can get, the better chance you have one of them being able to cook or clean.

*runs away from thread as fast as possible*

HyperCaz
December 7th, 2006, 05:08 AM
Well, going off on a completely different tangent. I realized this after I turned the PC off last night. Geez,this episode is a retread of SG1's "It's Good to be King" (written by M&M as well).

It's the same premise. Unctuous character who has given the team grief in the past shows up as someone sorta ruling a village (whatever). Bad guys come into town. Must work together to cleanup mess. Unctuous character gets away. Also had several wives. (What is it with guys wanting several wives??)

Anyway, it was done better on SG1. Should have been done just once....

very good point, prion...but unlike our beloved Harry...I don't think Lucius learned anything out of this. Just as obnoxious as ever. But definitely something to think about. Maybourne had lots of wives because of his reputation and Lucius had admirers for same reason (ONLY in this episode, not talking about Irresistible *scared of the rape debaters*).

It's Good to Be King is I guess an example of what this episode should have been, but considering the differences between Lucius and Maybourne...in comparison, some of Irresponsible's different take on this plot is justified.

FallenAngelII
December 7th, 2006, 05:14 AM
The retreading of "It's Good To be King" is obvious. I saw it 5 minutes into the episode. At least Maybourne continously saved them instead of just saving them once from a "gang of ruffians".

expendable_crewman
December 7th, 2006, 05:18 AM
EDITED: forgot to add...I LOOOOVED the part when the team stands up for Rodney, first Ronon, then immediately followed by Teyla and Carson....CLASSIC!....again...just great team moments in here mixed in with the rest of the stuff.....Ha, I called this the "I'm Sparticus" moment. And did you notice Rodney sticks his head out after Carson speaks, offering himself too?

The Genii firing at Shepaprd was "Bonnie & Clyde" or "Butch Cassidy & the Sundance Kid."

The villagers' need to grow a collective spine was a campy "Magnificent Seven."

And the final showdown was "The Good, the Bad, and the Ugly."

BTW, to everyone who wants Kolya back ... I watched the ep again and noticed it was the Genii mercenary who checked Kolya for a pulse.

I didn't see any Genii in the very end, so I'm going to hope I got my cake *and* I'm going to get to eat it. Which is to say I really needed Sheppard to shoot Kolya ... but I don't necessarily NOT want to see Kolya again.

If the Genii soldiers gathered up their "dead" and went unaccompanied to the Stargate, who's to say Kolya is really dead?

I won't be complaining if he shows up again with a new scar ... Just sayin'.

Trialia
December 7th, 2006, 05:21 AM
I won't be complaining if he shows up again with a new scar ... Just sayin'.

At least that would give the writers a chance to give us a resolution to this particular feud that is actually remotely satisfying...

FallenAngelII
December 7th, 2006, 05:29 AM
Why would the team allow the Genii soldiers, who'd committed violent crimes, to leave without repercussions? They'd either jail them on Atlantis or hand them over to the Genii (and bar a revolution, they're gonna be incarcerated).

And, what, you think John'd let them scoop Kolya up without checking for a pulse first?

BTW, here's a Yuna-cap (captured by me) of Kolya getting shot:
http://img151.imageshack.us/img151/1484/deadkolyajd6.jpg

Trialia
December 7th, 2006, 05:31 AM
Oh my lord, that IS a Yuna-cap! :D

gopher65
December 7th, 2006, 05:35 AM
All I'm sayin is that the LOVE POTION is a timeless story device, and that in this case it is being over-analysed to prove that a fictional character you dislike is a serial rapist - and that we, the writers think that is funny.

This may be at the root of the disagreement. Personally, I have always thought that the idea of a love potion is horrific. Whether its use is in a fairy tale or in Harry Potter I have blanched (is that the right word?) every time I have read about it. Fairy tales are almost always sickening (have you ever read the REAL Little Red Ridding Hood? I have. *gross*), and should not (IMO) be used as a viable source for any halfway decent story. The only way I enjoy a fairy tale is if it is being ridiculed.

Trialia
December 7th, 2006, 05:42 AM
Exactly. I mean, hello, look at Hansel and Gretel through mature eyes and without belittling what the story is because it's a fairy story, and it contains child abandonment, cannibalism and murder among other things. :rolleyes:

FallenAngelII
December 7th, 2006, 05:50 AM
This may be at the root of the disagreement. Personally, I have always thought that the idea of a love potion is horrific. Whether its use is in a fairy tale or in Harry Potter I have blanched (is that the right word?) every time I have read about it. Fairy tales are almost always sickening (have you ever read the REAL Little Red Ridding Hood? I have. *gross*), and should not (IMO) be used as a viable source for any halfway decent story. The only way I enjoy a fairy tale is if it is being ridiculed.
Disney has made people think fairy tales are love lovey dovey and fluffy happiness. The Little Mermaid died having never had her love reciprocated, Hansel and Gretel cooked the witch (hence why that partical fairy tale's never been turned into a Disney movie), Sleeping Beauty slept for 100 years during which time her litle prince died or something, the wolf in Little Red Riding hood met an awful fate, etc., etc., etc.

Love potions are rape potions. No decent human being should ever take a love potion. And no decent human being should ever think of a love potion as anything less than a rape potion.

If they don't like you, tough luck.

gopher65
December 7th, 2006, 05:52 AM
A better example is coffee. I get a headache if I don't get my first cup in the morning.

Then you are addicted to caffine, a highly dangerous (and deadly) drug. Get off of it while you still can. (no really, no joking)

FallenAngelII
December 7th, 2006, 05:53 AM
Plus, coffee does not make you voluntarily go on suicide missions or turn on your friends just because some guy smells like it.

Trialia
December 7th, 2006, 05:54 AM
Then you are addicted to caffine, a highly dangerous (and deadly) drug. Get off of it while you still can. (no really, no joking)
*nods* I used to get caffeine withdrawal headaches before my first cup of coffee in the morning because I drank so much of it. They'd frequently lead to migraines. Thankfully, I no longer drink coffee at all - I've switched to tea. Much safer and a lot less jangling on the nerves.


FA-- I wouldn't want to take something like that either, not even if it made someone I adore fall in love with me, because it's fake. I'd know that it was because of the chemicals I'd given her and not because of my personality that she cared and that kind of thing can be utterly soul-destroying.

FallenAngelII
December 7th, 2006, 05:55 AM
FA-- I wouldn't want to take something like that either, not even if it made someone I adore fall in love with me, because it's fake. I'd know that it was because of the chemicals I'd given her and not because of my personality that she cared and that kind of thing can be utterly soul-destroying.
You're onto something: Lucius has no soul!

Jeyla4ever
December 7th, 2006, 06:01 AM
Mitchell82....I agree with most of your points too...I had to edit this cause by the time I posted this 2 pages had been filled...LOL......It would have been nice to see how Weir would have reacted especially when Lucious mentioned that he's very good friends with Weir, Carson and Rodney...that was classic...

I enjoyed it very much as well....that showdown scene...I think that because there is so much angst and drama going back with John and Koyla...the scene was handled as a joke, at least I interpreted that way....my husband still thinks they should bring back more of the Wraith...they are the force to be reckoned with...but I enjoyed the banter and the new and improved Lucious....as to the comments about our female characters...I agree with some of it....but this episode didn't give me that vibe at all..Teyla had a great role in this and if anything it showed how strong and influential she is with her team. I liked that they actually listened to Teyla for once...and that they followed up with her sources tip....I do hope Koyla isn't gone...I like the angst that he brings to the show....again...besides the Wraith, he's the only other villain presented so far that makes me cringe to my seat....

and did I mentioned that I looooved Ronon's bit with showing us some skin there at the beginning while he was fixing his shirt....Aw!

In addition...I also liked Irresistible...at first it was a bit too much of a shocker for SGA...but the more I see it, the more I enjoy it...again...it was different and it incorporated all of the characters beautifully...

I'm glad I"m not the only one that liked it, Mitchell....*grins*

prion
December 7th, 2006, 06:05 AM
This may be at the root of the disagreement. Personally, I have always thought that the idea of a love potion is horrific. Whether its use is in a fairy tale or in Harry Potter I have blanched (is that the right word?) every time I have read about it. Fairy tales are almost always sickening (have you ever read the REAL Little Red Ridding Hood? I have. *gross*), and should not (IMO) be used as a viable source for any halfway decent story. The only way I enjoy a fairy tale is if it is being ridiculed.

Going totally OT, most fairy tales of old were horrific: cannabilism, murder, etc. etc. Particularly the European ones. Any time a potion of some kind was used, it always ended badly. ALWAYS.

The only time 'love potions' work well are in schmaltzy movies. In reality, I don't see how anybody with a sense of self-respect could do that to someone else as, well, read the fairytales ;)

prion
December 7th, 2006, 06:09 AM
*nods* I used to get caffeine withdrawal headaches before my first cup of coffee in the morning because I drank so much of it. They'd frequently lead to migraines. Thankfully, I no longer drink coffee at all - I've switched to tea. Much safer and a lot less jangling on the nerves.


FA-- I wouldn't want to take something like that either, not even if it made someone I adore fall in love with me, because it's fake. I'd know that it was because of the chemicals I'd given her and not because of my personality that she cared and that kind of thing can be utterly soul-destroying.

I've never had caffeine headaches - but then only do 2/3 cups a day. I knew one woman once who had severe headaches - was gonig to be sent off to an MRI and then i asked her if she told her doctor she drank tea like water. She said, no, he'd asked about coffee. So, tea can be as 'dangerous' headache-wise as coffee. She cut way back on the tea and saved h erself a ton of money (this was the days of pay first and hope to get reimbursed later health insurance).

Won't touch expresso though. TOO much caffeine!

Jeyla4ever
December 7th, 2006, 06:16 AM
expendable_crewman;6074596]Ha, I called this the "I'm Sparticus" moment. And did you notice Rodney sticks his head out after Carson speaks, offering himself too?

Yeah, I did...that scene was just great all around...I loved those team moments....it was really outstanding....


The Genii firing at Shepaprd was "Bonnie & Clyde" or "Butch Cassidy & the Sundance Kid."

That was a bit predictable too...you could tell by Sheppard's face and the whole trust me on this one to Ronon....


The villagers' need to grow a collective spine was a campy "Magnificent Seven."

The villagers, to me, were not any different from any other village that has been visited in Atlantis and in SG1...so, I wasn't surprised at all..I can't wait till the come up with a village that whips their butts...oh, wait, they did...the Gennii....LOL
They can do better....it's sad that I'm used to it by now...


And the final showdown was "The Good, the Bad, and the Ugly."

Nah, still didn't get that vibe...didn't like it at all....
It could have been better..they build up to that scene and then BANG! it was over and done with and predictable...we didn't even see any blood....Bah!


BTW, to everyone who wants Kolya back ... I watched the ep again and noticed it was the Genii mercenary who checked Kolya for a pulse.

I didn't see any Genii in the very end, so I'm going to hope I got my cake *and* I'm going to get to eat it. Which is to say I really needed Sheppard to shoot Kolya ... but I don't necessarily NOT want to see Kolya again.

If the Genii soldiers gathered up their "dead" and went unaccompanied to the Stargate, who's to say Kolya is really dead?

I won't be complaining if he shows up again with a new scar ... Just sayin'.

I think it could have been done better...I mean if this is the man that John hates with all his might....we should have seen him either say something to the Genii's or just more than what we saw...this is why I think it was deliberately left this way to leave the option of Koyla coming back...hey, if Baa'l comes back from the dead, so can Koyla..he's not dead...

and it leaves the opportunity if he should ever come back...still I think it could have been done a lot better and still left us with the uncertainty....

gopher65
December 7th, 2006, 06:18 AM
I've never had caffeine headaches - but then only do 2/3 cups a day. I knew one woman once who had severe headaches - was gonig to be sent off to an MRI and then i asked her if she told her doctor she drank tea like water. She said, no, he'd asked about coffee. So, tea can be as 'dangerous' headache-wise as coffee. She cut way back on the tea and saved h erself a ton of money (this was the days of pay first and hope to get reimbursed later health insurance).

Won't touch expresso though. TOO much caffeine!

Yeah, this is basically what happened to my mom, except she was having heart palpitations and bloodflow problems as well. She stopped drinking coffee (and cut back on her tea) on a doctor's advice and it all went away.

Trialia
December 7th, 2006, 06:18 AM
I can't touch espresso either - can you say "instant migraine"? :P I used to drink between 3 and 8 cups of instant coffee daily and if I didn't have at least two I'd get nasty withdrawal headaches, but if I had more than eight I'd get a full-blown migraine. Now I'm so unaccustomed to coffee, just two cups will knock me off my feet. :P

Last time I had to have an MRI was - well, I can't remember if the fall down a flight of stone stairs came before the slamming into a stone lamp-post or not. :P Actually, no, wait, that was a CT scan. I last had an MRI before my shoulder operation last year, and because I have type 2 Raynaud's syndrome, my hands and feet were swollen numb balloons by the time I got out of there, I couldn't walk unaided for about ten minutes. :(

Anyway, all this is off-topic. Where were we?

Prion, I have to agree!

gopher65
December 7th, 2006, 06:25 AM
Love potions are rape potions. No decent human being should ever take a love potion. And no decent human being should ever think of a love potion as anything less than a rape potion.

I think the reason why rape potions were used so much is that a few hundred years ago it was basically acceptable to rape a woman any time you wanted to. They were barbaric savages back then. Thus their stories reflected their ethical standards. Woman were basically the property of their husband, so raping them was a property crime against their husband/father/brother (depending on who owned them). In fact it is dealt with as a property crime the Judaic/Christian bible:P, which seems to be where most of the people during those times got their "moral" sense from. EDIT: in europe anyway

ken_is_here
December 7th, 2006, 06:27 AM
I wonder if ken read any discussion threads on good episodes? Or does he just like punishment? From what I've read of the next couple of episodes, he could be in for alot more punishment.

I LOOOVE punishment. I thrive on it. Bring it on. (Do you really think I would be here if I wasn't having fun)

gopher65
December 7th, 2006, 06:31 AM
I LOOOVE punishment. I thrive on it. Bring it on. (Do you really think I would be here if I wasn't having fun)

*whips Ken*

:sokaranime06:

Trialia
December 7th, 2006, 06:34 AM
*whips Ken*

:sokaranime06:
Oh don't do that, not if he LIKES it ;)

ken_is_here
December 7th, 2006, 06:41 AM
I don't think we are nitpicking. It's more like venting out our frustration.
After all.. if every single poster noticed that there is plot hole big about shield, i think at least someone on production crew should have noticed.
It's not like they don't have access to Hide And Seek. Was it that hard to check what they wrote before? It would took only few minutes....

Also, after Common Ground everybody expected much more from Kolya. I really didn't expect him to get killed in "funny" episode with most annoying character ever introduced in SGA.

Kolya was blood thirsty b****** and he didnt even shoot a single villager?(at least that would make me smile after seeing how stupid and moronic they were)
Nothing.
Noone got killed... in which other ep was Kolya acting like this?
NEVER.


Offcourse i am negative, Kolya simply shouldn't have been there, at least not like this... it was pathetic was to kill prolly the best villain in Pegasus.


Guys I see a lot of talk about the shield. Now I don't know anything about it (and maybe that's why it didn't bother me) but here's the way I see it.

Nobody stated that this was the exact shield from Hide and Seek right? McKay never said -- hey my shield device went missing, and now Lucious has it...so we should assume at the very least that this is a seperate device.

So maybe it was an earlier model that was flawed (slow moving things could get through, whatever) which is why it was discarded, and eventually discovered by Lucious.

Or perhaps another race found a shield, and tried to duplicate the technology and didn't get it quite right (which is why it can be passed around from person to person) It would still look the same, but be slightly different.

Just like many weapons in our world look similar but have slight variations to them -- perhaps this shield is the same.

Now I know some of you are super hardcore, and want everything to be tied together with a bow, and I respect that - Hell I'm the same way when I watch my favorite shows -- (hey when are they going to release "Misfits of science" Mr. DVD Man? My video tapes are all chewed up from multiple viewings) --but instead of lamenting what you see as a flaw, why not just embrace it as part of canon. Now there are TWO different types of Lantian shield devices, both with unique characteristics. More tech to geek over. What fun!!

Ken

Pitry
December 7th, 2006, 06:43 AM
Well, how many missed opportunities in one episode?

I'm referring mainly to Sheppard. Y'know, this could have been the one episode where we get to see Sheppard a little bit out of his box, a little bit more challenged, perhaps a tad darker than the usual flyboy attitude. Nothing.
As if this wasn't the man who just 6 episodes ago tortured him almost to death. Didn't get even a smidgen of a vibe for that. What, that he wanted to kill him? He wanted that before Common Ground, too.And what busg me more - so he killed him, clean (oh, in that clich? western style... could have lived without it) - and shows nothing for it.
I don't know f it's the writing, JF, or both. But nothing seems to ever change Sheppard. Even when there are opportunities for it, the character seems to have an inner-built reset button - hell, reformatting every single episode. And it shoudln't be like that - Sheppard's gone through enough ion this season alone to merit some affect. At least some. I think the writers, directors and JF should allow Sheppard to stop play the hero and start confronting reality.


I also don't liek how it turned all of a sudden to be personal between Kolya and Sheppard from Kolya's side. I expected it from Sheppard - btu didn't sense it - but not from Kolyas. It wasn't before. Even after he shot him in The Eye, Kolya dind't take it all that personally. Okay, so he doesn;t like Sheppard - but he would't make special ops just to get him.

All the cuts between scenes (Lucious invincible - Kolya's soldiers drowning him; the team hiding - suddenely getting captured) were just aboutt he worst short cuts ever, (SG1 season 10 spoilers)aside form the Morpheus ending. ...

And lastly, shame they killed Kolya. He was written compeltely and utterly cliched bad guy in here, but Robert Davi made it much less embarrassing than it could have been and the character did have potential. And some potential, at elast, to get perhaps a differnet reaction frmo Sheppard sometime in the future.

Othe than that, it wasn't all that bad.... Well, maybe because I expected it to be horrid. :) I actually think Irresistable was much worse. Liked Lucios coming with ideas as to how tog et the Genii out of the village (magnifying glass and duct tape! Snark.) Liked the superhero discussion at the beginning, McKay lieks Batman! Awww.
I'm pretty sure it was where they shot Revisions.... prolly some part of Vancouver? Lucious was lass obnoxious here than he was the last time, I actually kind of liked how he ripped off Sheppard's "advantures" to befuddle his admirers... And the speech for indepenadnce by that girl, which was exterme;y silly and obviuos and yet came out nice :D
Interesting how everyone in the team is willing to die for Meredith BTW ... mwaha. And Carson! He actually was in the episode, hooray.

Well, let's hope next week they'll come back to the rest of the seaosn 3 quality.

ken_is_here
December 7th, 2006, 07:08 AM
I've never liked the "love potion" as a plot device in any media, I find it childish. I don't find it funny that the writers seem to think it hilarious that this episode upset so many people in such a very serious way. Sexual assault isn't something that should be played with like that. We've been trying to change that in the world because comedy like this just encourages the culture of silence around SA if victims think that they are going to be involved in a humour device and embarrassed if they come forward. It wasn't anything like as well done in "Irresistible" as it needed to be, and you need to address the possibility that your work may upset people as seriously as it has here.

Honestly, it disgusts and angers me that y'all seem to think people getting upset over this is funny. And you think his not getting the hearts of the women he assaulted is sufficient comeuppance? Are you mad? Do you have any idea what something like that will leave with those six "wives" for the rest of their lives? At all?

Come on now...

Where did you get that the writers thought it was hilarious to upset everybody? That's just a crazy statement. Both of these episodes were written before the first one even aired.

Nobody was making fun of or even thinking about sexual assault when this was written. It was an innocent classic love potion device, as used in countless other instances -- and I think it is a shame that the world has become so PC that a fictional tale gets this kind of scrutiny. If you applied this to any movie - you would never be able to enjoy anything again. When I saw Con-air, at the end people were rooting for Steve Buscemi to escape. Everyone in the theatre cheered when he was free at the end. The CHEERED for a murdering pedophile. Not becuase they supported pedophiles -- but because he was just a character in a movie, and he was funny. And what about the people who cheer on the pirates in Pirates of the caribean -- did no one get the memo? Pirates are rapists and muderers -- but there are all the families with their kids grinning and laughing along with the pirates. Because it is FICTION.

And for the record, yes the episodes was meant to be funny -- in order to contrast the idea that a seemingly harmless doofus, was actually a methodical villain. It was a twist. To pull that off the episode had to be light at first, and then we reveal that Lucious has a dark side.

Anyway -- I know I won't change your mind about the episode -- but hopefully you will still tune in for next week's episode. (Tao of Rodney, I think?) Perhaps it will be more to your tastes.

ken_is_here
December 7th, 2006, 07:13 AM
Shall I quote again?


Over-analysis is what fans do. Why find it funny that some of us find something that was actually written into the episode - apparently unknowingly by the writers! - much less funny than it was apparently intended to be? That's what makes me so angry, and okay, yes, I'm not objective about this, but think about it, would you be, in my position?

I asked N John Smith at Collectormania a couple of weeks ago whether anything like this had been considered, and he said no, and I honestly don't think it was thought about - but therein lies much of the problem. You can't expect fans NOT to "overanalyse" an episode - fan is, after all, short for "fanatic". And that being the case, it should have been thought about.

I'll be especially honest with you Ali, I shake every time I so much as think about that episode, in anger and nausea and sheer frustration that something potentially this big and this serious was overlooked so casually and is now being treated in the cavalier way it is being. All I, personally, want is acknowledgement and apology, and maybe to be told that the writers will think before they finalise an episode like this in future. Is that too much to ask? I'm not asking for me alone.

Okay I see the problem here...it was my bad grammer that set you off. My bad. What I meant was that part of the problem was that people were under the impression that the writers thought it was funny. What it looked like was that I said the writers thought it was funny. Not the case.

Lauriel
December 7th, 2006, 07:16 AM
And for the record, yes the episodes was meant to be funny -- in order to contrast the idea that a seemingly harmless doofus, was actually a methodical villain. It was a twist. To pull that off the episode had to be light at first, and then we reveal that Lucious has a dark side.


The scene between Shep and Lucius really highlighted the darker side of Lucius. I thought that scene was very well done, and it was very chilling to watch Lucius crowing over his discovery in that manner. I thought Lucius came across as a narcisist, and the reactions of everyone around him, once they realised what was happening, really drove home the point that Lucius's behaviour was unacceptable, and in no way condoned.

Edit: That was for Irresistable, of course. I enjoyed both the shows. My major gripe with Irresponsible is that Kolya's death wrote off all of the antaganism between the two with a quick cheesy ending. That was disappointing.

Trialia
December 7th, 2006, 07:19 AM
Come on now...

Where did you get that the writers thought it was hilarious to upset everybody? That's just a crazy statement. Both of these episodes were written before the first one even aired.

Nobody was making fun of or even thinking about sexual assault when this was written. It was an innocent classic love potion device, as used in countless other instances -- and I think it is a shame that the world has become so PC that a fictional tale gets this kind of scrutiny. If you applied this to any movie - you would never be able to enjoy anything again. When I saw Con-air, at the end people were rooting for Steve Buscemi to escape. Everyone in the theatre cheered when he was free at the end. The CHEERED for a murdering pedophile. Not becuase they supported pedophiles -- but because he was just a character in a movie, and he was funny. And what about the people who cheer on the pirates in Pirates of the caribean -- did no one get the memo? Pirates are rapists and muderers -- but there are all the families with their kids grinning and laughing along with the pirates. Because it is FICTION.

And for the record, yes the episodes was meant to be funny -- in order to contrast the idea that a seemingly harmless doofus, was actually a methodical villain. It was a twist. To pull that off the episode had to be light at first, and then we reveal that Lucious has a dark side.

Anyway -- I know I won't change your mind about the episode -- but hopefully you will still tune in for next week's episode. (Tao of Rodney, I think?) Perhaps it will be more to your tastes.
I still don't think it was handled anything close to as well as it could have been. With that kind of thing you either pull it off brilliantly or you fail abysmally and unfortunately for you - and me and all the others who were upset by it - the latter was what happened. I was treated as if my accusation was nothing more than a joke the first time I dared to speak out about what happened to me. I'll be perfectly honest with you, watching Irresistible, that was my initial reaction down to the raw - I felt like I was being laughed at all over again. I'm more rational about it now, but that doesn't mean that it made me feel worth a damn. The episode made me physically sick. I was ill for three weeks after with flashbacks and nightmares that triggered migraine and more vomiting. I'll tell you outright here that my reaction has NOTHING to do with being PC. Ask Amanda about what she said on the subject at GABIT - she can explain this better than I can and I already know she understands why.


I'm stronger now, five years on from what happened to me, than to stop watching a show I enjoy because one episode triggers me, even this badly. I know that the better thing for me to do would be to express that the episode upset me and why it did so and to try, in this case, to get the people involved in creating it to understand how they screwed it up.

Next week's episode is Sunday, and I can tell you honestly that I've kind of been looking forward to this one a little. I hope there's more Elizabeth in it than in Irresponsible - Torri leaving would be about the only thing at the moment that would stop me watching the show. Liz/Teyla interaction would also be nice... hmm.

Edit:

Okay I see the problem here...it was my bad grammer that set you off. My bad. What I meant was that part of the problem was that people were under the impression that the writers thought it was funny. What it looked like was that I said the writers thought it was funny. Not the case.
Well, that at least is good to hear, because what it DID sound like you were saying was pretty sickening. Thank you for your clarification.


Anyway, I'm in aura right now, and I think I'm going to be sick, so offline I get. I'll be back when I get rid of the new migraine... whenever that is. They're usually short and sharp with me, so I can probably sleep it off. See you all again later, or tomorrow, or something.

Arlessiar
December 7th, 2006, 07:21 AM
Nobody stated that this was the exact shield from Hide and Seek right? McKay never said -- hey my shield device went missing, and now Lucious has it...so we should assume at the very least that this is a seperate device.
[...]
Now I know some of you are super hardcore, and want everything to be tied together with a bow, and I respect that - Hell I'm the same way when I watch my favorite shows -- (hey when are they going to release "Misfits of science" Mr. DVD Man? My video tapes are all chewed up from multiple viewings) --but instead of lamenting what you see as a flaw, why not just embrace it as part of canon. Well, I'd really and honestly like to, but I can't. I think the problem with that is the definition of 'canon'. Well, it surely wouldn't be a problem for the fans if these two things were actually two different types of shield devices. It would save us a lot of trouble in this discussion thread. :) But the definition of canon is that things have to be facts in the show, that means things must be stated explicitly on the show to become canon. Nothing is really canon as long as we only speculate and make assumptions and don't have a definite confirmation in the show.
Since no-one bothered to talk about or explain this shield device in detail (one sentence about it would have been sufficient (even mere speculation from one of the characters would have been better than nothing)), we don't have a confirmation that it isn't the same sort of device we saw in "Hide and Seek". It definitely looked the same, and since I don't think that it was exactly the same device Rodney used (as that one was depleted) I still have to assume that it is the same type as Rodney's was. Of course it could have been a newer model, or the prototype, or whatever, but it hasn't been said. And so it's all still speculation, I cannot say that it's canon. Although I'd really like to. :)

Bye, A.

LiLTiff17
December 7th, 2006, 07:49 AM
Somebody please tell me that Kolya had a reaction to Sheppards restored youth.

bluealien
December 7th, 2006, 07:50 AM
Its possible to read anything into a scene and associate it with an experience, good or bad that you may have occured in your life.

So while some see Irresistable (myself included) as a light hearted episode others read deeper into it. But from the comments made by John Smith at GMEX and Ken C here, I am positive the writers, producers and everyone involved in the episode ment it as a lighthearted, love potion if you will, type of episode.

What was shown on Irrresistabe was, that due to a phereomone some woman saw Lucius in a better light. Their perception of him was clouded. One of these same woman had already admitted to sleeping with Lucius BEFORE the phereomone so how do we know that she or the other would not have in time slept with him again - and that they ONLY slept with him because of the pheremone.

Even if this was the case Lucius was ALWAYS portrayed as a villian and at no time did anyone condone what he was doing. Sheppard was certaintly NOT impressed by him - and did everything to find out what was going on. When he discovered what Lucius was doing - he took him back to his OWN people for punishment. It was not up to Shep to punish Lucius - he was handed over for them to dish out whatever punishment they thought his crime deserved. So I don't see anywhere in the show where rape was condoned by the writers on anyone involved in the show.

They were telling a story - which had darker issues - like many things in our world at present - and while telling that story it involved some lighthearted moments and some real serious and creepy moments. I don't see how this can then escalate into accusing writers of deliberatly writing this episode to upset viewers, or to condone rape or that they should have to start dishing out apologies.

caty
December 7th, 2006, 08:00 AM
Somebody please tell me that Kolya had a reaction to Sheppards restored youth.

No, he didn't... It would have been nice if he had, but since he knew that Sheppard was there, he also must have known that he is not a "ninty-year-old Zombie" :)
Anyway, they should have had a scene where the Genii with the long hair (his name slipped my mind) told Kolya about Sheppard and Kolya being all surprised.

I'm still hoping that Kolya isn't really dead...

ccdsah
December 7th, 2006, 08:02 AM
A new low for SGA!!!
If they keep doing like this I'm going to stop watching SGA too.

SGFerrit
December 7th, 2006, 08:33 AM
It wasn'ta great episode, but it wasn't THAT bad. I can't believe some people are saying they would stop watching Atlantis etc... etc... This and irresistable weren't great episodes I know, but this season has had some of the best Atlantis eppys yet! Sateda, Common Ground, echos to name just a few! I'm sure the rest of the season will have some real gems too!

I am not ecstatic about Mallozzie and Mullie taking over next year(does it mean they will be writing ALL the episodes) but I am interested in seeing what they do with it.

Lucius had some very funny lines:

L:"What if I swung from a clock tower on a long rope, right into town!"
S: "and?"
L:"... I don't know that's all I have... I could set myself on fire!"
S:"I like that"

&

L: "Kick me as hard as you can!... OW!"

lol


Though yes I hope Kolya comes back too

Cap116
December 7th, 2006, 08:38 AM
Is it me or was that the town they used in Season 7, 'Revisions,' of SG-1?

psychofilly
December 7th, 2006, 08:43 AM
Given your screen name, I'd say that was a well thought out and reasoned reply. I appreciate that! And ditto what you said about Ken C. being brave to wade into the fray.

One counterpoint I'd like to make to your argument above...even if everyone was convinced and believed that what Lucius did was rape...there are also people around the world who've been viciously beaten, who've had loved ones murdered, who've been tortured by corrupt governments, who've been life-sucked by green aliens (just kidding)...

Does this mean that we can't have any of these in the show either, because it would be insensitive to those people's suffering? That would mean we could never have a villain, because it would offend someone, somewhere in the world.

LOL thank you, but if you go back and reread what I said, the problem was not that Lucius was a rapist, or that a rapist was portrayed on SGA, but that I did not think that SGA went far enough in the portrayal. I had no problem with the broad comedy overlaying a darker theme. I welcome and embrace that. However, in the end, it seemed like it was all a joke and handwaved away. *that* is what bothered me.



I go back to my earlier post...what Lucius did was evil...but villains are supposed to be evil. Give the writers credit for at least trying to create an original villain, who hides beneath a veneer of comedy.

They took a risk trying to do something a little different. Maybe it worked, maybe it didn't. But at least they tried. And as a result of the viewer feedback, maybe we'll get lucky and they won't try that particular approach again. Please. :D

WB

I appreciate any show that can subvert my expectations and make it work (Like the lemon in letters to Pegasus. I expected Shep to pull out an epi-pen or a powerbar. The lemon was funnier. Mean, but hella funny.)

Snip from Ken

And for the record, yes the episodes was meant to be funny -- in order to contrast the idea that a seemingly harmless doofus, was actually a methodical villain. It was a twist. To pull that off the episode had to be light at first, and then we reveal that Lucius has a dark side.

Again, if the episode would have pushed the horror and skeeviness of Lucius character once the dark side was revealed, Irresistible might not have made it in my top list, but it would have been a solid episode. Honestly, I appreciated the different take on the villain. He's a small minded man given absolute power, and it was different and psychologically creepy, which is my favorite sort of horror.

What (continually) disappoints me is that the episodes *are* tied up in a tidy little bow. Irresistible was, Phantoms was, and now Irresponsible was and lets not even get into the massive reset of Return II. These were messy psychological episodes, and the audience is intelligent enough to handle messy and darker endings. The team doesn't have to be sitting/standing around making funny quips, or walking off fade to black... If your going to take a funny episode and stand it on it's head, then go all out and leave the audience off balance and challenged as well. (Farscape was a master of this). It's clear that fans *do* pay attention and follow detail and greatly appreciate when writers do the same.

And since I've already touched on the rape issue, and the sci-fi tech, I'll get to the things I did like. BTW, Rodney's sheild was a prototype, wasn't it? All we have to believe is that Lucius had a mark 2 shield that had some of the kinks worked out, or it could have been made clear that he was turning it off to eat. That one really isn't too hard to fanwank and one or two lines would have fixed it. But please tell me they really aren't pulling tech off one show to explain established tech on another.

Likes:
1.The further loosening up of Ronon. For a big scary looking guy, he's surprisingly fun. As much as I absolutely love the McShep friendshippy/antagonistic vibe, I also love seeing Ronon and Rodney interact. It's funny and at times even sorta sweet. I like the visual pairing off of different characters, again, Rodney and Teyla, sitting and standing together. It seems like such a small thing, but they rarely get interaction.

2. The team interaction as a whole. I do feel like the writers are keeping their promise to concentrate more on the characters this year. And while I really wish there was a woman writer on the show, and more solid time for Teyla and Weir, I do feel like there has been improvement all around, but especially for Weir. Teyla was used well here as the voice of reason, which is her team niche, obviously. I loved how she handled John.

3. Rodney. He's my favorite character on the show, but I feel like he's being used more effectively this year over last year. There is a very clear arc of personal growth with him over time. We know he's braver than he lets on, and we know his team knows that and now Rodney is seeing that his team values him. The scene where they all jumped in front of him was great, especially with Rodney peeking out like, "Hello? I can take my own bullet, but thanks." and the spoon was classic.

4. John. I am glad that John did keep his word and shoot Kolya. This is the part that seemed to neatly wrapped up to me. Good villians often make our heroes a little greyer. Scorpius and John, Jack and Mayborne are a great example. If we were contrasting the different sort of villainy of Lucius and Kolya and the stories were tied in better without the half hearted rehabilitation of Lucius trying to be a better man, I really would have bought it. It would have given John credibility and a little edge. As it was, I think Mr Flanagan did a decent job with what he was given. I really wish the writers as a whole would do what Ken did in CG, or whomever wrote Phantoms and crack him open a little and let us poke around inside.

5. The heroes conversation. I loved that it tied back in to the Irresistible scene with John and Rodney, which was one of the things I really found enjoyable within that episode. I liked Rodney's explanation of why he liked Batman, and of course John would have a hero like Evil Knievel . That it's a true tie in to the Flan makes it even cuter. Though why didn't we get to hear who Teyla's hero was? Though maybe we already know. I'd think it was her father or the older lady who died last season.

So yeah, there was some fun stuff within the episode. I wish Koyla and Lucius story had been more entwined, like a twisted mirror. I wish the ending would have showed us a crack into John's psyche, since he killed a nemesis and been a little more messy. (What did they *do* with all those Genii, anyway?). I wish the villagers would be really smart more often than not. I get that they are a tool, but one of the things I always liked about early SG1 is that sometimes it was really clear that we were operating way out of our league, even when we thought we were the superior ones.

And of course number one on the wish list... more skin! But I'll settle for more crotch shots of the various cast members. *runs away*

prion
December 7th, 2006, 09:40 AM
Is it me or was that the town they used in Season 7, 'Revisions,' of SG-1?

Sure looked like it to me.


Guys I see a lot of talk about the shield. Now I don't know anything about it (and maybe that's why it didn't bother me) but here's the way I see it.

Nobody stated that this was the exact shield from Hide and Seek right? McKay never said -- hey my shield device went missing, and now Lucious has it...so we should assume at the very least that this is a seperate device.

So maybe it was an earlier model that was flawed (slow moving things could get through, whatever) which is why it was discarded, and eventually discovered by Lucious.

Or perhaps another race found a shield, and tried to duplicate the technology and didn't get it quite right (which is why it can be passed around from person to person) It would still look the same, but be slightly different.

Just like many weapons in our world look similar but have slight variations to them -- perhaps this shield is the same.

Now I know some of you are super hardcore, and want everything to be tied together with a bow, and I respect that - Hell I'm the same way when I watch my favorite shows -- (hey when are they going to release "Misfits of science" Mr. DVD Man? My video tapes are all chewed up from multiple viewings) --but instead of lamenting what you see as a flaw, why not just embrace it as part of canon. Now there are TWO different types of Lantian shield devices, both with unique characteristics. More tech to geek over. What fun!!

Ken


Welcome to the world of fandom! Yes, we do rewind tapes and look for flaws, but while they may be canon, they're also mistakes, flaws, continuity errors. But as fans, we also work with what we see on screen and make deductions. So, we can assume it's the same model as Rodney's, or speculate it's the upgraded model, whatever we want, as well, we work with what we see. To me it looked like ROdney's personal shield and it was simply a plot device and how could Lucius not have noticed that it died when Sheppard wore it?? Hmm..

I wouldn't say we all want it tied neatly together, but as fans/viewers, we do want logic in the progression of any show. I mean, if I want no logic at all, I'll watch a soap opera where a character is dead on Monday and doing just fine on Wednesday (so please don't even think of resurrecting Kolya - that would be concrete evidence the show has 'jumped the shark').

Meanwhile, MISFITS OF SCIENCE - you should bookmark http://www.tvshowsondvd.com/ as they're the best site for tv shows coming out. However, no sign of MOS.

prion
December 7th, 2006, 09:43 AM
What (continually) disappoints me is that the episodes *are* tied up in a tidy little bow. Irresistible was, Phantoms was, and now Irresponsible was and lets not even get into the massive reset of Return II. These were messy psychological episodes, and the audience is intelligent enough to handle messy and darker endings. The team doesn't have to be sitting/standing around making funny quips, or walking off fade to black... If your going to take a funny episode and stand it on it's head, then go all out and leave the audience off balance and challenged as well. (Farscape was a master of this). It's clear that fans *do* pay attention and follow detail and greatly appreciate when writers do the same.


Yeah, the convenient 'reset' in Return part 2 was, well, disappointing, as was the fact that there never are any psychological repercussions, etc. to some of the pretty awful crap the team goes through. None of us (at least I hope not!) are begging for BSG type dark grim stuff, but maybe every once in a while, give us a surprise ending, or a dark one. I realize episodic shows stay contained for the sake of syndication viewings (where the money is to be made) but well, it was said pretty good in the paragraph above, so I'll end here ;)

lissa1000
December 7th, 2006, 09:46 AM
I know the idea of being surrounded by airheaded nymphos is fun for some guys and I can see why the writers visit Bimboland so much. The problem is that a large portion of the audience is women and Bimboland doesn't really appeal to us. It would make sense to me to come up with other storylines that appeal to both sexes. Duet was funny and Common Ground was one of my favorites, so the writers are capable of both comedy and action without appealing to the lowest common denominator. Why not go that route?

ShadowMaat
December 7th, 2006, 10:00 AM
(hey when are they going to release "Misfits of science" Mr. DVD Man? My video tapes are all chewed up from multiple viewings)
Egad, someone else who remembers Misfits. Between that and the Torchwood reference, you're starting to scare me, Ken. :P Ditto the DVD request. I mean, they finally put Space: Above & Beyond on DVD and I didn't think that'd EVER happen. Now it's time for MoS to join it.

As for the comparison you made somewhere to Con Air, well, maybe people find Buscemi's character more enjoyable than Lucius. His character did horrific things, but he also had personality. I think the issue here is that some people (such as myself) find Lucius utterly repulsive with no redeeming qualities whatsoever. At least Steve's character was funny.

And as a note to everyone else, no, I'm NOT attempting to speak for everyone and I'm not trying to say that ALL people who hate Lucius hate him for the reasons I stated; I'm just making some general guesses based on my own opinions.

I still don't understand why anyone thought Lucius was good enough in the first place, but to draw up a sequel of him so soon (not only within the same season, but before reaction to the first one can be guaged) seems a little... overenthusiastic to me.

Anyway, I'll add my voice to that of those who are sick of all the busty wenches cropping up on the show. Even disregarding the issue of whether or not it's demeaning to women, I personally find it tedious and incredibly juvenile. Enough is enough. Please?

psychofilly
December 7th, 2006, 10:02 AM
I know the idea of being surrounded by airheaded nymphos is fun for some guys and I can see why the writers visit Bimboland so much. The problem is that a large portion of the audience is women and Bimboland doesn't really appeal to us.

I dunno, I'd go for an ep with Weir, Cadman and Teyla surrounded by hot well oiled himbos. ;)

All right, seriously, I do get tired of the busty eyecandy useless/brainless women. Pegasus is a tough place. I bet it would breed some tough, smart, broads. I'd love to see more of them and less ren-faire, women in distress. At least Chaya had a good reason to be useless.

I kinda thought the city in Irresponsible was kinda groovy. I liked the grassy courtyards and the brick buildings. I just wish the costumes would have been a little more modern as in suits and modest but modern dresses, because the houses didn't match the costuming. I really liked how they spiffed up Richard Kind at the very least. Loved that long coat. But I'll give them the benefit of the doubt for budgeting.

Ooh, I'd really like to see the "boys" have to suit up in native dress somewhere. Oh yeah, the entire team in leather or spiffy suits might just start an ovary earthquake. Cliche's are there for a reason, and playing dressup is one I wouldn't mind seeing.

kylieS21
December 7th, 2006, 10:16 AM
*sigh*


http://i78.photobucket.com/albums/j90/kylieS21/molehill.jpg
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expendable_crewman
December 7th, 2006, 10:19 AM
Why would the team allow the Genii soldiers, who'd committed violent crimes, to leave without repercussions? They'd either jail them on Atlantis or hand them over to the Genii (and bar a revolution, they're gonna be incarcerated).

And, what, you think John'd let them scoop Kolya up without checking for a pulse first?

BTW, here's a Yuna-cap (captured by me) of Kolya getting shot:
http://img151.imageshack.us/img151/1484/deadkolyajd6.jpgI'm not a big fan of Atlantis being a jailhouse, but honestly I can't answer what Sheppard woulda, coulda, or shoulda done because it's a toss.

From a continuity aspect, they tend to turn over bad people to the proper authority, but I can't say if that's been adhered to 100%. My guess is the answer will be, "Whatever serves the story."

The ep did not show Sheppard checking Kolya for life signs. It didn't show how the Genii left the planet, or where they went.

It did show that Sheppard and his team left the planet alone.

To me, that's an opening for a writer to go all kinds of places.

So I'm crossing my fingers and keeping a hopeful eye on season four episode summaries.

lissa1000
December 7th, 2006, 10:41 AM
I dunno, I'd go for an ep with Weir, Cadman and Teyla surrounded by hot well oiled himbos. ;)

It's only fair. ;) Hell, I'd settle for Sheppard wearing pants that fit. :samanime51:

Elinor
December 7th, 2006, 10:50 AM
Woohoo! Sheppard...the fastest gun in the West!!

OK...I didn't think this was a bad episode...disappointing yes...but not bad. Kolya is a fantastic villain...and I would've loved to have seen more of a build up of tension between Shep and him hunting each other down...just the two of them. The story was too light-hearted to deal with the Kolya/Shep issue really...especially after the events of 'Common Ground'. It would've been nice to have seen the showdown between the two of them in a dark, intense episode.

I think I've seen enough of Lucius now. I was a bit bored with him by the end of the episode...so I hope they 'rest' the character now.

As for Kolya...well...no one ever really dies in sci fi do they?!!

http://www.websmileys.com/sm/happy/1247.gif

Amalthia
December 7th, 2006, 11:14 AM
I am not ecstatic about Mallozzie and Mullie taking over next year(does it mean they will be writing ALL the episodes) but I am interested in seeing what they do with it.


Normally, I don't care who writes for what show but if this latest episode is an example of what more we can expect from these two writers working together...I would not bet money on a fifth season happening.

Amalthia
December 7th, 2006, 11:26 AM
Nobody stated that this was the exact shield from Hide and Seek right? McKay never said -- hey my shield device went missing, and now Lucious has it...so we should assume at the very least that this is a seperate device.


Assumptions do not equal canon. With that theory, people can assume it's canon that Sheppard and McKay are in a serious relationship together because it's never stated that they aren't together and based on their interactions it can be assumed maybe there is more going on?

You can also assume a lot of other things that aren't canon. Now when the audience has to "assume" something about a plot device the writers have failed in their job to provide clarity in their storytelling.

I don't think this shield device would have been such a big deal in terms of a plot holes if it wasn't the main plot device in Hide and Seek. They spent an entire episode devoted to this shield device and how it works. This isn't in the nitty gritty details.

Also, there was no way in hell this could be the same shield device from Hide and Seek because that one was depleted.

Sheppard's Delight
December 7th, 2006, 11:31 AM
Where did you get that the writers thought it was hilarious to upset everybody? That's just a crazy statement. Both of these episodes were written before the first one even aired.


Maybe then if the first one had aired we wouldnt have had the second at all? I hope that TPTB do take notice and realise that Lucius has not been a popular character and he wont pop up again in S4.



One of these same woman had already admitted to sleeping with Lucius BEFORE the phereomone so how do we know that she or the other would not have in time slept with him again - and that they ONLY slept with him because of the pheremone.

Did they? Goodness I must have missed that bit :eek: Does that mean I have to watch it again? :eek: :eek:

Sheppard's Delight
December 7th, 2006, 11:33 AM
As for Kolya...well...no one ever really dies in sci fi do they?!!

http://www.websmileys.com/sm/happy/1247.gif


I really hope not!;)

TJuk
December 7th, 2006, 11:34 AM
I dunno, I'd go for an ep with Weir, Cadman and Teyla surrounded by hot well oiled himbos.


It's only fair. ;) Hell, I'd settle for Sheppard wearing pants that fit. :samanime51:

Well there are plenty of nice himbos (well ok they're not dumb...most of the time) to choose from. I'd be more then happy to see the boys (especially Carson) in nothing but their skivvies...wet/oiled up....for the girl's amusement!!! *drool*

And OMG 'Misfits of Science', talk about classic 80's geekflick!!! Sadly, I own it on VHS, the original release (so old its getting crusty). Must get round to transfering to DVD. Such a classic... Johnny B Good!! That, Weird Science and Buckaroo were my favs as a kid. Thank god Buckaroo FINALLY came out on DVD because I watched my VHS to DEATH!

Um...what ep were we talking about again???

FallenAngelII
December 7th, 2006, 11:34 AM
Did they? Goodness I must have missed that bit :eek: Does that mean I have to watch it again? :eek: :eek:
No, bluealien is just confused.

That one woman "admitted" to turning Lucius down repeatedly before he took the drug.

Wolf Eire
December 7th, 2006, 11:37 AM
I hope that TPTB do take notice and realise that Lucius has not been a popular character and he wont pop up again in S4.



I also hope they realise we love Kolya and still want him to be alive. This is one incidence where the fans would accept a lame excuse like "he wasn't shot in a fatal area and got away". Bring back Kolya!

FallenAngelII
December 7th, 2006, 11:40 AM
Kolya should've tripped with Lucius standing behind him, John's bullet continuing and wounding him fatally. That would've redeemed the episode. And it'd been kinda funny too.

silence
December 7th, 2006, 11:48 AM
Ken... thanks for answering and popping up again after yesterday. ;)

Honestly, i wouldn't be half pissed if Kolya's death was handled better, specially after Common Ground (which i watched couple times, i simply loved it).
The point where i really got pissed was scene where Shep has silenced P-90 and in next scene silencer is gone.. at that point i knew that Kolya's death will be done totally wrong.

Shield is big deal cause it's used as plot device... why did Shep wear it? Why not having real fight? And i'll just repeat myself (and prolly become annoying) - i just couldnt get why in the world Kolya didnt shoot anyone in this ep... even his gun didnt fire when he tried to do it (making one of most viscious villains look stupid to make a joke -"fix this").

I didn't post anything about Irresistable, cause TBH i didn't watch much of it.. fast forwarded 2/3 of it... but when i heard that Kolya will be here i was expecting something completlly different. And i was complatlly dissapointed with what was given... that led to looking into more and more plot holes as my frustration with the way Kolya was handled grew....

And don't get me started on those villagers ;)
Can we have episode where team comes back to this planet and see Wraith fed on them? PRETTY PLEASE? :D

silence
December 7th, 2006, 11:49 AM
Kolya should've tripped with Lucius standing behind him, John's bullet continuing and wounding him fatally. That would've redeemed the episode. And it'd been kinda funny too.

indeed.

psychofilly
December 7th, 2006, 12:22 PM
Assumptions do not equal canon. With that theory, people can assume it's canon that Sheppard and McKay are in a serious relationship together because it's never stated that they aren't together and based on their interactions it can be assumed maybe there is more going on?

Yes please, let's assume that. :sheppard: :mckay:

Sheppard's Delight
December 7th, 2006, 12:38 PM
I also hope they realise we love Kolya and still want him to be alive. This is one incidence where the fans would accept a lame excuse like "he wasn't shot in a fatal area and got away". Bring back Kolya!

Oh I agree....*hopes somehow Kolya returns*:)


Kolya should've tripped with Lucius standing behind him, John's bullet continuing and wounding him fatally. That would've redeemed the episode. And it'd been kinda funny too.

Now that would have been my kind of ending ;)

bluealien
December 7th, 2006, 12:40 PM
No, bluealien is just confused.

That one woman "admitted" to turning Lucius down repeatedly before he took the drug.


No I am not confused -

When Sheppard went back to the planet alone, the dark haired woman said that she had refused to share his bed MORE than once. (pre pheremone Lucius) So in other words she had already slept with him at least once.

FallenAngelII
December 7th, 2006, 12:47 PM
No I am not confused -

When Sheppard went back to the planet alone, the dark haired woman said that she had refused to share his bed MORE than once. (pre pheremone Lucius) So in other words she had already slept with him at least once.
No, you are confused.

"I have refused to share his bed more than once" = I have repeatedly refuse to share his bed.

"I have refused to share his bed more than once" = I've slept with him once but not more.

And she didn't not emphasize "once". Unless she emphasized "once", she never slept with him. The writers made it clear that she refused him time and again... 'til he injested the drug.

ken_is_here
December 7th, 2006, 12:51 PM
Assumptions do not equal canon. With that theory, people can assume it's canon that Sheppard and McKay are in a serious relationship together because it's never stated that they aren't together and based on their interactions it can be assumed maybe there is more going on?

You can also assume a lot of other things that aren't canon. Now when the audience has to "assume" something about a plot device the writers have failed in their job to provide clarity in their storytelling.

I don't think this shield device would have been such a big deal in terms of a plot holes if it wasn't the main plot device in Hide and Seek. They spent an entire episode devoted to this shield device and how it works. This isn't in the nitty gritty details.

Also, there was no way in hell this could be the same shield device from Hide and Seek because that one was depleted.


I'm not saying it couldn't have been made clearer...I'm just saying that if it WAS the exact same device, McKay would have mentioned it. As in: "Hey this is the same device that I had...how did it get here?"

By not mentioning it at all, we are begging the question that there are at least a few of these devices around, and apparently they have some small difference, despite looking identicle.

Now this is a special case, (because here I think we probably should have been clearer) -- but to suggest that audiences shouldn't have to assume anything -- well it would make for pretty boring telivision if every story beat was explained. It doesn't mean the writers didn't do there job (is that really in the job description?) just because they want there to be some suprises-- or because they want you to have to think something through. "Show, don't tell" is a rule of thumb.

again - in this case, I think we probably should have had a line suggesting that it was a personal shield version 2.0 (some of the bugs worked out) from the Hide and Seek device.

Amalthia
December 7th, 2006, 12:54 PM
Yes please, let's assume that. :sheppard: :mckay:

lol, um yeah I wish they'd go there but they won't because SGA will never really do anything that controversial, that and they aren't exactly known for having any of the characters fall in love together and have a relationship that involves sex.

HyperCaz
December 7th, 2006, 12:58 PM
Kolya should've tripped with Lucius standing behind him, John's bullet continuing and wounding him fatally. That would've redeemed the episode. And it'd been kinda funny too.

.....I would have so paid to see that!!

lord-anubis
December 7th, 2006, 12:59 PM
On SG1, Carter was an officer, so had to wear the standard uniform. We didn't need to focus on her chest to know she was a woman, and the writers were forced to actually write interesting episodes for her. It would be nice if the writers could extend the same courtesy to Elizabeth and Teyla on SGA.

cater is a woman!!!!! that explanes some things:p lol

i would like to see some more teyla forces eps to shes a intsing charcter. i like maybe a backstory ep like they did for ronen. i don't know about elizabeth thou i dident really like the real world ep. i also think she tends to make some real bad desions.

the dancer of spaz
December 7th, 2006, 01:01 PM
I'm also wondering about Beckett - was it M & M's idea to dump him???? And what about Weir? They don't seem to have any idea what to do with her either (unlike the brilliant Carl Binder, who takes full advantage of Torri's acting skills). Just who IS responsible for all the cast changes on this show? I'm just curious - gotta toss these rotten tomatoes at someone. ;)

In general, these guys have a VERY difficult time writing for their female characters. I'm honestly surprised they're even BOTHERING to find something to do with Teyla next season, considering they've had three years to do it, and essentially squandered it all. The same goes for Elizabeth, and Carter, and to some extent, Vala. "Not knowing what to do with" the female characters is a common problem they have these days, and it's one I doubt will ever be fully addressed. It's a shame that that short-sightedness has taken away from the potential of all four of the current female characters.

I think the idea to dump Beckett

was a collective decision. But if they're going to bring in talent like Jewel Staite and let it waste away like they've done with TH and RL's, I really hope she's got something in her contract that allows her to do other things...

Amalthia
December 7th, 2006, 01:01 PM
I'm not saying it couldn't have been made clearer...I'm just saying that if it WAS the exact same device, McKay would have mentioned it.

I figured everyone kind of already knew that wasn't the same device from Atlantis. I mean come on they found puddlejumpers on another planet. I wouldn't be shocked if there were more ancient artificats floating about somewhere.

It looked like the same type of device as the shield that Rodney used. If it was a differnet color or looked slilghtly different that would be one thing but if it looks like a green shield device that Rodney used in Hide and Seek then people will make the logical conclusion that it will work like the one we had seen previously.

If the shield device was another color...or slightly smaller, or bigger...then people would assume it's kind of similar but NOT like the one Rodney used in Hide and Seek.

ken_is_here
December 7th, 2006, 01:02 PM
but they won't because SGA will never really do anything that controversial

Well someone hasn't been reading this thread...

Amalthia
December 7th, 2006, 01:03 PM
i don't know about elizabeth thou i dident really like the real world ep. i also think she tends to make some real bad desions.

I blame the writers for that. Honestly, in this show when there are bad decisions to be made they pass the buck to Weir.

ken_is_here
December 7th, 2006, 01:05 PM
Hey, where'd all the crabby, grrrr people go...it's not as fun without you.

gooner_diva
December 7th, 2006, 01:06 PM
Hey, where'd all the crabby, grrrr people go...it's not as fun without you.
Aw, man, it's the timezones. ;)

Wolf Eire
December 7th, 2006, 01:08 PM
Hey, where'd all the crabby, grrrr people go...it's not as fun without you.

Ken, get M&M on here and we'll have a grand old debate.;)