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GateWorld
November 19th, 2006, 08:52 PM
<DIV ALIGN="center"><TABLE WIDTH="450" BORDER="0" CELLSPACING="0" CELLPADDING="7"><TR><TD><DIV ALIGN="left"><FONT FACE="Verdana, Arial, san-serif" SIZE="2" COLOR="#000000"><A HREF="http://www.gateworld.net/atlantis/s3/319.shtml"><IMG SRC="http://www.gateworld.net/atlantis/graphics/319.jpg" WIDTH="160" HEIGHT="120" ALIGN="right" HSPACE="10" VSPACE="2" BORDER="0" STYLE="border: 1px black solid" ALT="Visit the Episode Guide"></A><FONT SIZE="1" COLOR="#888888">ATLANTIS SEASON THREE</FONT>
<FONT SIZE="4"><A HREF="http://www.gateworld.net/atlantis/s3/319.shtml" STYLE="text-decoration: none">VENGEANCE</A></FONT>
<FONT SIZE="1">EPISODE NUMBER - 319</FONT>
<IMG SRC="/images/clear.gif" WIDTH="1" HEIGHT="10" ALT="">
The Atlantis team investigates the disappearance of one of their allies, only to find an old enemy engineering a race of powerful monsters.

<FONT SIZE="1" COLOR="#888888"><B><A HREF="http://www.gateworld.net/atlantis/s3/319.shtml">VISIT THE EPISODE GUIDE ></A></B>
SPOILERS! PHOTOS! AND MORE!</FONT></FONT></DIV></TD></TR></TABLE></DIV>

Rudeljaeger
January 30th, 2007, 03:00 AM
Hm the Episode was pretty much like I expected.

Michael doing genetic iratus experiments on his own which is causing problems

AutumnDream
January 30th, 2007, 03:13 AM
Interesting episode...

Starxgate
January 30th, 2007, 03:27 AM
I can't believe next week is the Atlantis finale & SG-1 will be half way done next week. Life will suck when both Stargate shows finish their seasons & next year will suck even more with only 1 Stargate show :(

SGFerrit
January 30th, 2007, 03:30 AM
So what happened?

Prior_of_the_Ori
January 30th, 2007, 03:33 AM
Nearfantastica had posted the plot in a thread about Vengeance. Just going to quote....


Carson was not mentioned in the ep, for the person that wanted to know.

The team gates to a planet that is refuge to the civilization in season 2 that escaped the giant volcano. That society has been out of contact with Atlantis, and the team go to check it out. When they arrive, they discover that everyone is dead, and there is one life sign on the detector. They follow it into an underground cavern similiar to the Genii fortresses. Once there, they encounter a lab where it appears someone has been doing experiments with Iratus bugs and humans. The team is then attatcked by a giant alien Iratus/Human hybrid that looks like a giant blue cockroach with the same teeth as a Predator (re: Predator movies).
It turns out that Michael has been doing experiments trying to build an army of super bugs, since he's no longer welcome among the Wraith. There are hundreds of super bugs on the planet, and the team must fight to get out of the stronghold. Michael has taken the control crystal from the DHD.
There is a scene in the underground between Sheppard and Michael where Sheppard tells Michael he doesn't have a problem killing him. Michael lowers his weapon and steps closer to Shep, stating: "I don't mind dying. Because I know you and your team will never escape."

In the end, Sheppard commandeers Michael's Wraith Dart, scoops up Rodney, Ronon and Teyla, and uses the dart's DHD to get them home.

In the end, they ask Caldwell (who does not make an onscreen appearance) to go and check out the planet, but Michael has disappeared, along with the hundreds of super bugs. All and all, it was a slightly creepy episode with an "Alien" feel. Sheppard even references the film.

The opening sequence is a gym scene between Rodney and Ronon with Ronon "teaching" Rodney how to fight. Rodney is wearing Karate gear almost exactly like what David Hewlett is wearing the the Dog's Breakfast Trailer. It was very cute. Silly without being another worn out "Rodney in place for humor" scene.


I enjoyed the episode very much. Cheers!

Not seen it personally but looks very interesting, can't wait to see it!

SGFerrit
January 30th, 2007, 03:36 AM
Sounds very interesting:)

Rudeljaeger
January 30th, 2007, 03:39 AM
Yeah, but I am a bit afraid that Michael gets a kind of "Ford Nr.2". I want Michael dead or recurring, but not this kind of "He is out there"-Character.

sgeureka
January 30th, 2007, 03:47 AM
So what happened?Nearfantastica made a detailed-enough run down of the ep here:
http://forum.gateworld.net/showthread.php?p=6262610#post6262610

Agent_Dark
January 30th, 2007, 04:11 AM
One of the better episodes of the season imo. I guess the 'Zombies' (they kinda looked like the zombies from Half Life 2 imo) are gonna be the Atlantis version of the Super Soldiers in s4. Though slightly odd how they suddenly turned from 'extremely hard to kill' at the start of the episode, to Ronan picking them off with single shots on the run lol... :s Michael will probably be a fairly large antagonist in season 4 too, by the looks of it. They seem to be setting him up as a renegade Wraith who will be an enemy of both the Wraith and Atlantis.

Also, I think Team Shep needs a refresher course in military tactics.... All this wandering off by themselves, splitting up and going solo when facing an unknown number of hostiles, splitting up and going solo when their communications were jammed...., chattering away like no tomorrow when 'tracking' a bogey - in tunnels none the less (sound carries a long, long way in a tunnel...). I know Sheppard is the only US military officer on the team, but that's what training is for... Ronan and Teyla should be both adequately versed in US military tactics by now.

sueKay
January 30th, 2007, 04:13 AM
No mention of Carson, in a story relating to his character's main (if not only) arc?

Submersion was forgiveable, but this isn't

I won't be watching this one either.

Lt. Colonel Ryu Gaia
January 30th, 2007, 04:38 AM
Yeaaaaah. Not watching this one.

P-90_177
January 30th, 2007, 04:49 AM
No mention of Carson, in a story relating to his character's main (if not only) arc?

Submersion was forgiveable, but this isn't

I won't be watching this one either.

what a crappy way of deciding what you do and don't watch.

Lt. Colonel Ryu Gaia
January 30th, 2007, 04:53 AM
P90, it's a disgrace and a disservice to the show's best character. The least they could do is say his name.

Rudeljaeger
January 30th, 2007, 05:00 AM
You are not going to watch the entire show until in an Episode somebody says something like "ohhhh remember Carson, wasnt he a poor guy..." ?????

<mod snip>

female Wraith
January 30th, 2007, 05:30 AM
I just watched it. Very good episode. One of the best.

Hey, don't bother that nobody mention Carson. The situation was sooo screwed for the Atlantis team so they didn't have time to think about Carson.

About the Vengeance

- Michael looked very, VERY angry and who can blame him??
- He also looked older. I wonder why. May be because of the experiments with the retro virus he can no longed feed in a right way?!
- Rodney said that Michael is very smart. There was a guess that he has been a scientist before. One of the best.
- For the first time the hive is mentioned as a family.
- There were some Alien like creatures.
- Michael said he is lonely and want to continue his life but not as a human.
- I really felt sorrow when I was watching Michael in this episode. It seems the bad guy wasn't he but some other people with interesting sense of double standarts' morality.

FoolishPleasure
January 30th, 2007, 05:33 AM
You are not going to watch the entire show until in an Episode somebody says something like "ohhhh remember Carson, wasnt he a poor guy..." ?????

<mod snip>
I understand what the complaints are. Carson was the focus of the "Michael" story arc and for Michael not to even mention him is strange, since Michael doesn't know he is gone. In fact, when I heard Carson was being written out, I assumed it would be by Michael's hand. It certainly would have been a better swan song than an exploding tumor.

Pharaoh Atem
January 30th, 2007, 05:41 AM
- I really felt sorrow when I was watching Michael in this episode. It seems the bad guy wasn't he but some other people with interesting sense of double standarts' morality.

i agree he was a randomn wraith that was part of a expertiumant that at the time there didn't think it would lead to this.

this was a good epsiode glad to see connor again :) this has been a good arc with micheal. he did look differnt in this epsiode.......i was mad that ...again there didn't mention carson :mckay:

Rudeljaeger
January 30th, 2007, 05:48 AM
I understand what the complaints are. Carson was the focus of the "Michael" story arc and for Michael not to even mention him is strange, since Michael doesn't know he is gone. In fact, when I heard Carson was being written out, I assumed it would be by Michael's hand. It certainly would have been a better swan song than an exploding tumor.

Hey I do not have problems with the complains, but with stop watching the show because of this. I mean, does SGA only consists of Carson? This Episode was obviously very interesting if you look at the other posts, so why miss this fun just because some stupid freaking sentence was missing where they cry after Carson...

ata_beckett
January 30th, 2007, 05:54 AM
Hey I do not have problems with the complains, but with stop watching the show because of this. I mean, does SGA only consists of Carson? This Episode was obviously very interesting if you look at the other posts, so why miss this fun just because some stupid freaking sentence was missing where they cry after Carson...


I think everyone's just talking about believabilty here. Not mentioning Carson in Submersion makes sense. They don't have to go all "BOO HOO" every time they go off-world, etc. But to bring back a story arc where Carson was a very integral part and not even mention him? That just doesn't make any sense.

kimaken
January 30th, 2007, 06:04 AM
Hey I do not have problems with the complains, but with stop watching the show because of this. I mean, does SGA only consists of Carson? This Episode was obviously very interesting if you look at the other posts, so why miss this fun just because some stupid freaking sentence was missing where they cry after Carson...

Would you watch if YOUR favorite character was removed? Of course not, because the writers LOVE McKay and will NEVER write him off like they did Ford and Beckett. I'm not a McKay fan--I won't be tuning in to watch either.

Rudeljaeger
January 30th, 2007, 06:04 AM
I think everyone's just talking about believabilty here.

Nope. At least two guys (or girls) want to stop watching until he is mentioned in one Episode.

ata_beckett
January 30th, 2007, 06:06 AM
Nope. At least two guys (or girls) want to stop watching until he is mentioned in one Episode.

HAH. I'll rephrase that.

SOME of us are just talking about believability here. :D

Darren
January 30th, 2007, 06:09 AM
I'm not at all without sympathy over the exit of Carson, but I must ask that we stick to the thread topic -- "Vegeance," and what was in it. It's been made clear that there was no mention of Carson, so let's move on. On topic.

Thanks!

ShoDar
January 30th, 2007, 06:39 AM
WhooHoo! That was goooood! :D

Well, okay, the creatures looked kind of cheesy, but that kind of reminded me of old-school Dr Who in a way.

I like where they've gone with Michael. Someone mentionned that he was like Ford 2.0, but I don't think this is the case. Ford was throughout evey episode he was in, a young soldier who didn't think his way through most situations. Michael, on the other hand, is now fleshed out as a wraith scientist-type. I think he almost had sympathy for Carson, which is IMO why he didn't sound as harsh when referring to "your doctor". He has shown himself to be a very tactical careful person and he could be an interesting enemy.

I loved the rifts that showed up between the team members. You could totally see that if they weren't in the situation of the moment, Ronon would have smacked John around a little for being unwilling to kill Michael. And Teyla was exactly the opposite, understanding that Michaels life is hell and it's their fault. Weir looked quite spooked at the end, too. I wonder how that's going to turn out?

StayingOccupied
January 30th, 2007, 06:52 AM
Finally an episode where i like Ronan the most. His "well i was gonna say blow it up, but your idea is better" line had me rollin. Great ep for him, and I was happy to see Micheal back again. They never had a really good shot of those bugs, which sucks. And they let Ronan keep the only 2 effective weapons (his gun and the sword). I thought he was gonna give the sword to Rodney because he was teaching him how to use it in the beginning of the episode.

StayingOccupied
January 30th, 2007, 06:56 AM
Would you watch if YOUR favorite character was removed? Of course not, because the writers LOVE McKay and will NEVER write him off like they did Ford and Beckett. I'm not a McKay fan--I won't be tuning in to watch either.

Of course not?

Haha.

I'm wont quit watching one of my favorite TV shows just because my favorite character gets killed off. Stuff like that happens. But its not one of my favorite TV shows because of the 1 character, its because of ALL the characters.

Domesticated Equine
January 30th, 2007, 07:00 AM
This was the usual poor showing I've grown to expect from SGA. Lots of running around and shooting things but no tension whatsoever even when Tayla's facing imminent death. Naturally all the cannon fodder, sorry, "marines" die while the heroes escape even though they once again behave like idiots.

I do have sort of grown to like Michael and I found his justification for the experiment quite believable. Frankly, I think I'm going to start rooting for him and hope he manages to wipe out the idiots at Atlantis.

Oh, and not mentioning Carson? Absolutely pathetic from the writers, but no less than I expected.

Edit: It's always fun to notice how the creatures-of-the-week become weaker the further along the episode is. In the beginning the team can't kill one no matter what they do, while in the end Ronan's supergun takes them out with one shot.

Teddybear
January 30th, 2007, 07:03 AM
Good episode, I liked it . I liked the reference to the Alien movie because that's what I thought a moment before Sheppard mentionned it.
I just found that the team is always a little naive when they face a dangerous situation , as they do not have the experience of the three past years.
Michael is a good and interesting "bad guy" . I liked the atmosphere in this episode .
:ronananime16:

ShoDar
January 30th, 2007, 07:10 AM
Oh, and not mentioning Carson? Absolutely pathetic from the writers, but no less than I expected.

1. He was mentionned. Unless "your doctor" is someone else. ;)

2. The Atlantis team didn't mention him, but I actually found that to be quite believable. I think the fact of Carson being dead has people viewing the situation differently than they would otherwise. If they had time to go back to Atlantis and try and analyse Michael's data and didn't mention him, that would be one thing. But this... even if Carson was alive, it's very unlikely he'd get a direct mention in the middle of a battle (which this essentially was). The team would have been focused on the situation at hand and how to get out of it alive, and deal with the rest of it later. That is entirely realistic in terms of real military situations.

Domesticated Equine
January 30th, 2007, 07:59 AM
1. He was mentionned. Unless "your doctor" is someone else. ;)

Suffice to say, I was hoping for something a bit more substantial.



2. The Atlantis team didn't mention him, but I actually found that to be quite believable. I think the fact of Carson being dead has people viewing the situation differently than they would otherwise. If they had time to go back to Atlantis and try and analyse Michael's data and didn't mention him, that would be one thing. But this... even if Carson was alive, it's very unlikely he'd get a direct mention in the middle of a battle (which this essentially was). The team would have been focused on the situation at hand and how to get out of it alive, and deal with the rest of it later. That is entirely realistic in terms of real military situations.

The issue is not really whether the team would have been thinking or talking about Carson while on the mission. The issue is that TPTB chose not to include any scenes in the last two episodes where the characters could have discussed Carson or at least shown that he was missed. Not that the lack of character development or continuity is anything new to the Stargate franchise.

ShoDar
January 30th, 2007, 08:16 AM
Suffice to say, I was hoping for something a bit more substantial.

The issue is not really whether the team would have been thinking or talking about Carson while on the mission. The issue is that TPTB chose not to include any scenes in the last two episodes where the characters could have discussed Carson or at least shown that he was missed. Not that the lack of character development or continuity is anything new to the Stargate franchise.

You know, in the first season of TNG, my favourite character was Tasha Yar. Her death towards the end of season one was deliberately pointless (unlike Carson actually trying to save lives). In a later episode, Data is in danger of being disassembled and Picard shows a holo-pic of Tasha that Data has to show that he has an emotional side. It was very touching, and sounds like it's similar to what the Carson fans want. It happened in the middle of season 2. There were 11 episodes with no substantial mention of Tasha before that happened. And it worked. It was respectful of the character and the fans.

And the thing is... that is very true to reality. There has been a death recently of someone close to a family member of mine. There haven't been very many mentions of this person outside of arrangements and one or two "I remember.." stories. And those have all happened in relatively private moments, not out in the open. Even when the loss is still quite close, most people don't go around talking about it.

It's not unreasonable either in real life, or in a show that there would be little or no mention of a deceased person unless the situation really calls for it, and I've already stated my belief that the follow up of this should mention Carson, but this episode really didn't have a place for it.

And personally, I find the clamor of "they should come up with a way to mention him" is disrespectful of the character. It's like all the stuff about Weir being in fewer episodes. I don't see how it is better for Weir to be in more episodes but be the equivalent of "hailing frequencies open", rather than have her be in fewer episodes but have tham make sense and do something with her. In the case of Carson, I'd rather wait for a "The Measure of the Man" type episode that mentions him in a way that is really fitting and interesting than have them stick in a scene or line that would be there to appease the fan-girls (and boys) instead of flowing organically from the story. If TPTB had wedged him in there without treating it properly, I'd probably complain about them jumping the shark.

SaberBlade
January 30th, 2007, 08:39 AM
i enjoyed the episode alot. It's nice to see the darkside of Beckett's Iratus experiments.

One thing i'm confused about is why McKay would have a Gi. I know that it's an obvious reference to 'A Dog's Breakfast' but overall it seems something strange for McKay to have, especially a yellow belt and learning sword techniques.

Overall I thought it was a good episode, and it actually make Michael more likable to me as in the past he seemed like a cheap way to have a villain when they can't think of anyone else.

Domesticated Equine
January 30th, 2007, 08:40 AM
And the thing is... that is very true to reality. There has been a death recently of someone close to a family member of mine. There haven't been very many mentions of this person outside of arrangements and one or two "I remember.." stories. And those have all happened in relatively private moments, not out in the open. Even when the loss is still quite close, most people don't go around talking about it.

It's not unreasonable either in real life, or in a show that there would be little or no mention of a deceased person unless the situation really calls for it, and I've already stated my belief that the follow up of this should mention Carson, but this episode really didn't have a place for it.

I'm not necessarily asking for a big moment here, I don't need a character to spontaneously go into a speech about how much he misses Carson. What I do want is to see the effect his death has on the people that were close to him. In TV-land the writers can show us those private moments, but they chose not to do this.



In the case of Carson, I'd rather wait for a "The Measure of the Man" type episode that mentions him in a way that is really fitting and interesting than have them stick in a scene or line that would be there to appease the fan-girls (and boys) instead of flowing organically from the story. If TPTB had wedged him in there without treating it properly, I'd probably complain about them jumping the shark.

The problem here is that the story is not flowing organically at all. A major character is killed and we get essentially no mention of him and the aftermath of his death in the next two episodes. The issue just sticks out like a sore thumb and any sort of effort to remedy the situation later on just isn't going to change it.

Oh and jumping the shark? The way I see it, that happened already in season 2.

Starxgate
January 30th, 2007, 08:56 AM
Boring episode. Awesome settings & atmosphere. Bring on The Shroud

ShoDar
January 30th, 2007, 09:12 AM
The problem here is that the story is not flowing organically at all. A major character is killed and we get essentially no mention of him and the aftermath of his death in the next two episodes. The issue just sticks out like a sore thumb and any sort of effort to remedy the situation later on just isn't going to change it.

I disagree completely. It sticks out mainly because people are upset to start with and keep talking it to death. But whatever. Have fun with your negativity ;)


Oh and Chuck had lots of lines!!!!!! Yay!

And Ronon teaching Rodney to fight was priceless :D I knew there was a reason that Ronon is my favourite character

Starxgate
January 30th, 2007, 09:24 AM
One thing I dont like is they had their hands on a dart. What happened to it ? Did they just use it to open the gate & then leave it ? That would have been stupid. Fly the dart back to the planet Atlantis is on you idiots or at least gate to a planet they know of that is close enough to that planet to fly the dart back home. People are whining about SG-1 taking over Atlantis but you know what I am whining about the stupidity of the characters. The show is killing itself & stuff like this is getting annoying

Domesticated Equine
January 30th, 2007, 09:25 AM
I disagree completely. It sticks out mainly because people are upset to start with and keep talking it to death.


The reason it sticks out is that I've grown to expect continuity from TV shows. But I understand it's not that important to everyone so I'm quite happy to agree to disagree. Btw, I wasn't upset with Carson's death, in fact I thought 'Sunday' was the best SGA episode in a long time.



But whatever. Have fun with your negativity ;)

Hey, I'm just calling 'em like I see 'em. If an episode sucks I'm not going to spare the snark but I also get really enthusiastic about quality TV. And yes, I'm having fun or I wouldn't posting here.

All hail the USAF
January 30th, 2007, 09:26 AM
all this talk about Carson being an important part of the story arc....I kinda disagree...I mean yeah he kind of "created" Micheal but....Tayla is more important to his story I think

Domesticated Equine
January 30th, 2007, 09:27 AM
One thing I dont like is they had their hands on a dart. What happened to it ? Did they just use it to open the gate & then leave it ? That would have been stupid. Fly the dart back to the planet Atlantis is on you idiots or at least gate to a planet they know of that is close enough to that planet to fly the dart back home. People are whining about SG-1 taking over Atlantis but you know what I am whining about the stupidity of the characters. The show is killing itself & stuff like this is getting annoying

I'm right aboard with you on the stupidity of the characters, but this time I recall Sheppard mentioning that Daedalus would pick up the dart later from another planet.

burgerboy
January 30th, 2007, 09:31 AM
any screencaps

Starxgate
January 30th, 2007, 09:34 AM
Sheppard said nothing about the dart. He specfically wanted the Daedalus to do a sweep around the planet & detect if any more of those bug things were still alive & on the planet. They more then likely knowing Atlantis just left that dart there.

nonniemous
January 30th, 2007, 09:54 AM
The "Tribute" episodes continue: Can you say "Aliens"? "Ripley?" I knew you could. DH nailed it when he said they were basically just running from a bunch of big bugs in this episode.

Talk about a let down. It was all, all, ALL set up and no pay off. The best part of the show was the first 10 or so minutes when there was real suspense and curiosity as to what had happened, what was going on? Then it was just "how many bugs can we shoot?" and Michael's lovely little bit of exposition and Teyla and Rodney's exposition and Ronon's exposition...

I do give them bonus points for trying to address the stupidity of the retrovirus arc by, *cough*yes, more exposition*cough* having Ronon say it was a bad idea from the beginning and then ask "How long do you want to keep paying for it?" Teyla's regret was nothing new; she's been the one who expressed the most doubts all along. But it fell flat here. Not to mention that lame bit of exposition as to where Michael got his Mad Geneticks Skillz. Instead of oh, maybe he picked it up rummaging through what's-his-name's brain for two days, no, we get "Maybe he was a scientist. One of their best. Like you." Which Rodney and DH properly ignored for the pathetic bit of writing that it was.

Connor Trinnear didn't even deliver this time; maybe the stupidity of the script got to him, too? He seemed to relish the role in the past, revel in it even. This time they could have had anyone beneath the makeup and it wouldn't have mattered. Flat, flat, flat.

This is the first Carl Binder scripted episode in which I've been sadly disappointed. Even without Carson, I had hopes for this episode, for something complex, something layered with meaning and subtlety, for something delivering on emotion and regret and determination and...gah. I could have and was willing to accept the lack of Carson if they'd delivered on all those other fronts--they had SO much material with which to work. But no, we got the "Vengeance for Dummies" edition instead, and a setup for a new, even more stupid bad guy after they nuke the Asurans.

This is what they give us in a bid to increase ratings? Teyla's upthrust cleavage and a bug crawling over it about sums it up. Chalk one more winner (loser?) up into the "episodes that are pitiful rip-offs of a damned good movie" column.

2/10

zilexa
January 30th, 2007, 09:55 AM
You are wrong Starxgate, he first said, didn't want to damage the controlroom, Daedelus can pick IT up later. Then he said he wanted the deadelus to make a stop, sweep around the planet.

This was a really good episode, especially compared to many of the previous episodes.. they seem quite dull now.

I do HATE one thing:
we wont see the sequel! how this plot will continue.. untill season 4 since the next episode is the final one and will be about ..
..the Asurans attempt to wipe out Atlantis once and for all (the writers wanted a plottwist for S4) but I do like the storyline of this final ep :)

Domesticated Equine
January 30th, 2007, 09:56 AM
Sheppard said nothing about the dart. He specfically wanted the Daedalus to do a sweep around the planet & detect if any more of those bug things were still alive & on the planet. They more then likely knowing Atlantis just left that dart there.

Sorry, you're mistaken. My transcription from the relevant part:


McKay: We barely made it ourselves. We had to commandeer a wraith dart just to dial out.

Sheppard: We ditched it on another planet. Didn't want to risk damaging the control room. Daedalus can pick it up later.

Tristen
January 30th, 2007, 09:56 AM
I loved this episode! Very tense and suspenseful and I really liked the way they shot it. It could've used a little more Shep whump maybe, but hey, I take what I can get ;)

Anyway, I didn't quite understand why Michael would single out Teyla and would want to kill her first, since she was the one most empathetic to his feelings when they experimented on him the first time. Or maybe it was because of that. Maybe he felt more betrayed by her than by, say, Sheppard because she'd been telling them they'd been friends.

I also really liked the continuity in this ep. Mentioning how they've been keeping in touch with a people they helped out the year before is something they don't often do, and I liked it. And of course the clear references to 38 Minutes were awesome, especially McKay's "Disturbingly familiar."

Plus, Ronon's coming down on Sheppard was a nice touch.

Some things I did find a bit odd:
- When Sheppard and McKay are holding each other at gun shot, Sheppard tells McKay and Teyla to go to the 'Gate and that he and Ronon would be right behind them. McKay readily goes: "Okay", even when he knows Sheppard's got to be in some sort of trouble if he's standing face to face with Michael. Just found his readiness to leave slightly odd when in The Ark he made such a big point of we don't leave anyone behind. Then again, terrifying bloodsucking giant bugs can do that to you ;)
- Minutes later, Sheppard's knocked down by one of the creatures, and the thing's obviously beating him. Ronon shoots the bug, and in the next shot Sheppard's already back up and running! It woulda been nice to at least see Ronon help him up or ask if he was okay! :)
- If those monster bugs were so dangerous, why didn't our team have any more injuries than a scratch on McKay's cheek? This ep was supposed to convey they were lucky to have escaped with their lives, but since the team barely had a mark on them, even after several encounters with the bugs, that effect was a bit spoiled. Of course the bodies of the marines were supposed to help in that department, but they're not the ones we watch for every week. A major character needs to be seriously injured if we are to believe these creatures really are as bad ass as they're made out to be. Grave danger equals grave injuries in my (whump) book ;)



It's not unreasonable either in real life, or in a show that there would be little or no mention of a deceased person unless the situation really calls for it, and I've already stated my belief that the follow up of this should mention Carson, but this episode really didn't have a place for it.

I would have to agree with you. Yes, I do want them to mention Carson and to show us that he's still being missed, but it wouldn't have done the character or the actor justice if they'd only mentioned him once because of the whole retrovirus experiment. Although that was a great part of Beckett's arc, it was not what made the character so well-loved. I'm still holding out hope that the writers are smart enough to give Carson a proper tribute.

Anyway, great episode! Definitely an edge-of-the-seat one!

x Tristen

silence
January 30th, 2007, 09:59 AM
Boring at best .. what with same setting three times in a row? Small corridors AGAIN? Big bugs .. they tried to soften this issue with Alien reference, but it only shows they have no ideas whatsoever ....

I was expecting much more .... my hopes for S4 just went downhill (if that's even possible) ...


blah ..

sgeureka
January 30th, 2007, 10:07 AM
I liked the episode very much, especially for an episode where the whol plot is to run away from alien creatures. And wow, they're really screwed now. The overall theme of S4 seems to be to be screwed, so this is a nice lead in...

So, the SuperVolcano people... I need to watch Inferno again to fully understand what relevance this has.

Chuck the technician had some more lines. He even went into Weir's office. :)

Good quotes:

McKay: Maybe it will bleed to death.
Ronon: Or grow another arm.

(after an explosion, to Sheppard)
McKay: I think you singed my eye brows. Think you used enough dydnamite, Butch?!

Unimportant questions I had during the episode:

- Wow, it seems a little easy to just get the crystal thingie out of the Stargate, and no-one can dial it anymore... is it the same with MW Stargates?
- Is there a regulation on what officers can have as sunglasses? Sheppard's sunglasses (that he already had in Rising) still seem weird to me...
- Since when does Teyla have that new shirt?

Not too spoilery low-res cool screenshots from the ep:

http://i52.photobucket.com/albums/g36/sgeureka/sga_eps/sga_319_01_ronon.jpg
http://i52.photobucket.com/albums/g36/sgeureka/sga_eps/sga_319_02_mckay.jpg
http://i52.photobucket.com/albums/g36/sgeureka/sga_eps/sga_319_03_kz.jpg
http://i52.photobucket.com/albums/g36/sgeureka/sga_eps/sga_319_04_iratus_bug.jpg
http://i52.photobucket.com/albums/g36/sgeureka/sga_eps/sga_319_05_alien.jpg
http://i52.photobucket.com/albums/g36/sgeureka/sga_eps/sga_319_06_teyla.jpg
http://i52.photobucket.com/albums/g36/sgeureka/sga_eps/sga_319_07_mckay_fog.jpg
http://i52.photobucket.com/albums/g36/sgeureka/sga_eps/sga_319_08_michael_old.jpg
http://i52.photobucket.com/albums/g36/sgeureka/sga_eps/sga_319_09_alien.jpg
http://i52.photobucket.com/albums/g36/sgeureka/sga_eps/sga_319_10_teyla_bug.jpg

Prior_of_the_Ori
January 30th, 2007, 10:18 AM
Wow, are there any pics of the Iratus bug creatures?

sgeureka
January 30th, 2007, 10:24 AM
Wow, are there any pics of the Iratus bug creatures?There were only three kinds of non-human creatures: Michael, the normal (CGI) iratus bugs we already know from several eps, and the cross-iratus-bug-human creatures that look like the creature from "Alien".

localfocus
January 30th, 2007, 10:36 AM
Ok, Carson aside this episode was gooooooood. Easily one of my favorites of the series. Fantastic pacing, good atmosphere, and just the right balance of character and plot. This is exactly what so many fans have been asking for. I adore that they dealt with the dubious morality of the retrovirus arc without being preachy. I love all the character pair ups. Finally, finally, Teyla and McKay get scenes together. I love him calling her my dear. Weir's guilt was beautifully played. I loved her expressing that to Teyla. I loved that she got to express guilt at all. I love that this episode dealt with so many emotions and didn't shy away from them. Love, Love, Love. Plot elements and character elements don't have to be separate things. They can be combined, and this episode illustrated it. Rodney was finally shown as part of the team and not this guy the rest of the team put up with so he could save the day. And they lost! No one won in this episode, they merely survived, and that was wonderful.

Now Carson is the obvious elephant in the room, he wasn't mentioned at all. Regardless if in a Watsonian POV you can show why in a particular episode mentioning him wasn't needed, his death emotionally affected the audience. From a Holmesian POV, this needs to be addressed in how the episode is structured. The audience is part of the writing equation, making them feel, bringing them up, and then bringing them down, and I don't think the writers know how to deal with provoking and utilizing the audiences emotions well. In last weeks ep it wasn't so much Carson not being mentioned that bothered me, I wanted his loss to influence the other characters' behavior. It was odd that it didn't because it made the characters seem OOC. In this ep he should have been mentioned, not by the team, but by Micheal. And he kept referencing "Your People" and not "Your Doctor" or "Dr Beckett" It glared a bit. Internally this episode was fantastic, from the overall arc of the season, it needed something to fit it in. Or like Submersion, be mentally placed before Sunday. I'm already reorganizing it in my head :)

Did anyone catch what McKay said in that "Ropes was why I got bronze instead of silver in . . .? program? I couldn't make it out.

But I enjoyed this episode so much. It was what I'd been missing since Submersion wasn't the great episode I wanted. So I'm willing to forgive since Carson is not my favorite character. Though I understand why others are bothered.

Oka
January 30th, 2007, 11:04 AM
The "Tribute" episodes continue: Can you say "Aliens"? "Ripley?" I knew you could. DH nailed it when he said they were basically just running from a bunch of big bugs in this episode.

Talk about a let down. It was all, all, ALL set up and no pay off. The best part of the show was the first 10 or so minutes when there was real suspense and curiosity as to what had happened, what was going on? Then it was just "how many bugs can we shoot?" and Michael's lovely little bit of exposition and Teyla and Rodney's exposition and Ronon's exposition...

I do give them bonus points for trying to address the stupidity of the retrovirus arc by, *cough*yes, more exposition*cough* having Ronon say it was a bad idea from the beginning and then ask "How long do you want to keep paying for it?" Teyla's regret was nothing new; she's been the one who expressed the most doubts all along. But it fell flat here. Not to mention that lame bit of exposition as to where Michael got his Mad Geneticks Skillz. Instead of oh, maybe he picked it up rummaging through what's-his-name's brain for two days, no we, get "Maybe he was a scientist. One of their best. Like you." Which Rodney and DH properly ignored for the pathetic bit of writing that it was.

Connor Trinnear didn't even deliver this time; maybe the stupidity of the script got to him, too? He seemed to relish the role in the past, revel in it even. This time they could have had anyone beneath the makeup and it wouldn't have mattered. Flat, flat, flat.

This is the first Carl Binder scripted episode in which I've been sadly disappointed. Even without Carson, I had hopes for this episode, for something complex, something layered with meaning and subtlety, for something delivering on emotion and regret and determination and...gah. I could have and was willing to accept the lack of Carson if they'd delivered on all those other fronts--they had SO much material with which to work. But no, we got the "Vengeance for Dummies" edition instead, and a setup for a new, even more stupid bad guy after they nuke the Asurans.

This is what they give us in a bid to increase ratings? Teyla's cleavage and a bug crawling over it about sums it up. Chalk one more winner (loser?) up into the "episodes that are pitiful rip-offs of a damned good movie" column.

2/10
Couldn't agree more. What a let down.

GateLadyM
January 30th, 2007, 11:24 AM
http://i52.photobucket.com/albums/g36/sgeureka/sga_eps/sga_319_10_teyla_bug.jpg

Well, that pic is enough. I've had it with Teyla boob shots. Doesn't that girl ever get COLD? Won't be watching this one.

sgeureka
January 30th, 2007, 11:37 AM
^Yeah, but to be fair, when you're strapped to bed, a bug on your chest close to your face is much more menacing than a bug on your, say, knee. And since women tend to have boobs on their chest, that's where the bug is most menacing.

:), even from a female perspective.

FoolishPleasure
January 30th, 2007, 11:42 AM
^Yeah, but to be fair, when you're strapped to bed, a bug on your chest close to your face is much more menacing than a bug on your, say, knee. And since women tend to have boobs on their chest, that's where the bug is most menacing.

*LOL* However, it would be nice if Teyla wore a UNIFORM off world. Oh, wait, she did, it just happened to pop open. Too bad Shep's "uniform" doesn't expose his chest every week. ;)

Skydiver
January 30th, 2007, 11:44 AM
Guys, with all due respect to what happened last week, the topic of this thread is discussion of Vengeance, not how much is sucks that all the gang isn't there.

Please have some respect for those who aren't as upset by the changes and want to discuss the episode and maybe your airing of your issues with the lack of characters is better suited to another thread.

Darren warned folks this morning, I'm warning now. Please keep it on topic.

DrBravo2
January 30th, 2007, 11:49 AM
"I think we should give Poochy more screen time. . . and when the other characters aren't around they should ask themselves questions like "Where's Poochy?", "What is Poochy doing now? and "What do you think Poochy would say?"
Replace "Poochy" with "Carson" and you have most of this thread.

Karma
January 30th, 2007, 11:53 AM
Did anyone catch what McKay said in that "Ropes was why I got bronze instead of silver in . . .? program? I couldn't make it out.
Participaction. Or ParticipACTION, actually, but I digress.

It was a government mandated physical fitness program run in Canadian public schools during the 70s and 80s (and possibly the 90s). Rope climbing wasn't a part of it when I had to participate, but I guess they could have changed it before my time.

I found it ironic that McKay said that to Teyla, since DH and RL are the only actors of the "main four" who actually would have conceivably known what ParticipACTION was.

localfocus
January 30th, 2007, 11:56 AM
Participaction. Or ParticipACTION, actually, but I digress.

It was a government mandated physical fitness program run in Canadian public schools during the 70s and 80s (and possibly the 90s). Rope climbing wasn't a part of it when I had to participate, but I guess they could have changed it before my time.

I found it ironic that McKay said that to Teyla, since DH and RL are the only actors of the "main four" who actually would have conceivably known what ParticipACTION was.

Thanks! I knew it was something I wouldn't get otherwise :)

silence
January 30th, 2007, 11:58 AM
"I think we should give Poochy more screen time. . . and when the other characters aren't around they should ask themselves questions like "Where's Poochy?", "What is Poochy doing now? and "What do you think Poochy would say?"
Replace "Poochy" with "Carson" and you have most of this thread.


My problem isn't Carson, bu that we have third ep in a row with similar corridors, basically same setting and so on .... Ark, Submersion and vengeance ... what's the difference? ooooh ... there was Michael .... weeeeeeee...

i'll jump off the cliff since i am ill informed shrilling lemming ....


this ep was boring. period. nothing new there .... chenage Wraith Queen for Michael and what you have? 3x18 .... change that for _random_civilization_that_wanted_to_survive_wraith and what we have? .. The Ark...


Ohhhh ... this really gives great hope for S4.

NOT!!!

DrBravo2
January 30th, 2007, 12:01 PM
My problem isn't Carson, bu that we have third ep in a row with similar corridors, basically same setting and so on .... Ark, Submersion and vengeance ... what's the difference? ooooh ... there was Michael .... weeeeeeee...

i'll jump off the cliff since i am ill informed shrilling lemming ....


this ep was boring. period. nothing new there .... chenage Wraith Queen for Michael and what you have? 3x18 .... change that for _random_civilization_that_wanted_to_survive_wraith and what we have? .. The Ark...


Ohhhh ... this really gives great hope for S4.

NOT!!!
You're the OTHER half of the thread then.

localfocus
January 30th, 2007, 12:08 PM
My problem isn't Carson, bu that we have third ep in a row with similar corridors, basically same setting and so on .... Ark, Submersion and vengeance ... what's the difference? ooooh ... there was Michael .... weeeeeeee...

i'll jump off the cliff since i am ill informed shrilling lemming ....


this ep was boring. period. nothing new there .... chenage Wraith Queen for Michael and what you have? 3x18 .... change that for _random_civilization_that_wanted_to_survive_wraith and what we have? .. The Ark...


Ohhhh ... this really gives great hope for S4.

NOT!!!


It wasn't the most original idea, no, but I think it was well executed. :) It was the pacing and the integration of everyone, without people being OOC that impressed me the most. No one was stupid, they lost because they were overwhelmed, not by making stupid mistakes they know better to make like last week. I'll settle for so little these days. Though I'm with you on the corridors, every civilization has those, the Hoffans, Genii, Sateda. They need new sets :) Though they did retcon that in "The Game" visually, I want something different.

SGAFan
January 30th, 2007, 12:19 PM
Well, *shrugs* I really liked it. Very fun to sit and just be waiting for something to jump out at them. *G* Very cool to see Michael again and to have some reprocussions to previous decisions (such as the experiments in the first place) come back and errr bite them ;) I know I've complained at the lack of fallout from previous decisions before, its good to see a dangling plot line grabbed and used.

I thought the beginning with Rodney and Ronon was freaking hilarious! You knew Rodney was going to eventually look away, but when it happened it was still funny! LOL

I really REALLY liked Michael and just the action of the episode.

good ep! :D Can't wait for next weeks and next season :D

Mitchell82
January 30th, 2007, 12:35 PM
All I can say is wow. Two of my favorite scifi programs melded into one. Alien and Stargate. This was done very well, you could believe the "bugs" were real b/c they wernt CG. Very nice twist seeing Michael "finishing" our experiments and nice mentioning of the morality, and desperate measures issues. Not too bumed about no mentioning of Carson. This was done well and hope to see more of Michael. 9/10

Alipeeps
January 30th, 2007, 12:54 PM
My initial thoughts on the ep after first viewing:

Gotta say – I loved it!

First of all – it was so totally a remake of Aliens and I loved that! Hey, it’s a good film and one of my fave sci-fi movies! :D I chortled when Sheppard made reference to the Alien movies but he was talking about the first movie, Alien, whereas this ep was so Aliens – think about it:


settlers mysteriously disappeared and found all piled together in one place, all dead
marines being sent in to find the missing settlers
scary bug-like creature roaming the corridors and the good guys tracking their life signs
scary creatures using air vents/spaces between the floors etc to move around and get in and out of sealed off areas
finding the breeding ground of eggs/pods and blowing it up/setting fire to it


Lots of interaction to enjoy here:

I loved the sparring scene at the start with Ronon and McKay - yes it was funny but also a nice indication that those two spend time together outside of missions and that McKay is changing and growing as a character - much as he didn't seem to be enjoying it (or getting any better at it according to Ronon! :D), it's something new and interesting for him to choose to want to learn physical combat skills
Those who have complained of late that we never see McKay and Teyla spending time together; well now we have and it was good. I enjoyed that whole conversation of theirs - in Stargate terms, that was pretty deep stuff! ;)
Nice to see a) finally a mention of the retrovirus project being a mistake and having turned out SO bad and b) Ronon being the one to mention it – pointing out that he’d been against it from the start. I loved seeing Ronon really step up and not just blindly go along with the Earth team’s preconceptions/ideas but get in John’s face and tell him it was WRONG.
Interesting to finally see some discussion on the wraith as a culture and how much – or little – we know about them. Not only things like their reproductive methods but matters like what their lives are like.. what kind of like Michael might have had before we did what we did to him. Nice to see that whole grey area there actually being acknowledged.


I enjoyed the sense of tension of them searching the corridors with monsters after them etc – it was like a good old-fashioned scary movie! My main complaint on that front was that there were not enough repercussions.. I realise the gates are family-oriented shows but still... considering how dangerous and vicious these creatures were supposed to be.. Sheppard and co got into physical fights with them on several occasions and the only resulting injury was a small scratch to McKay's neck!

I'm also, I have to say, a little sick of seeing Teyla being captured/taken hostage/taken control of etc. I mean.. The Ark, Submersion and now Vengeance! I know we have complained that Teyla needs more development and more to do etc but having her do the same thing over and over does not equal development. It's actually making me start to get a little bit fed up of Teyla and I've always liked her character, even when she doesn't have much to do. Someone in the whump thread has actually posited and interesting - if worrying - theory; that TPTB whump Teyla because they don't know what else to do with her. *sigh* So they make her the victim needing saving every week... :S

And speaking of whump - in my, admittedly biased, opinion, we missed a wonderful opportunity here given Sheppard's history with the bugs. Given his hatred of them (and I would love to see that expressed/explored in more than
just jokey remarks to the effect that "I hate those bugs"!) and his past experiences etc with both the bug and the retrovirus.. how much more tense/scary etc would it have been to have Sheppard strapped to the table with an iratus bug slowly crawling towards his neck? Teyla can imagine how awful it is to be attacked by one of those things... Sheppard *knows*.

The other thing that bugged me a little here is - yeah, I'm gonna say it - the lack of mention of Carson. Now I am not expecting any huge amount of follow-up from TPTB on this, I really am not and I don't feel that they are doing a terrible disservice to his memory by not referencing him, I guess I've just gotten too cynical to expect that. BUT this entire episode revolved around the retrovirus that HE created, around what HE did to Michael etc etc. It not only would have been natural for his name to be mentioned but it actually seemed like they were deliberately avoiding doing so - the careful construction of Michael's references to what "your people" did to him etc and him carrying on "your" work on the retrovirus etc. He knows full well who is/was responsible for the retrovirus and he made damn sure he got personal with Beckett about it in Misbegotten so it does kind of jar now that he never even mentions him (he doesn't know he's dead, after all!).

It just kinda felt like TPTB were trying too hard to carefully phrase things so that his name wasn't mentioned cos if it was, they would have had to devote a moment or two of screentime that they could have spent on action to portraying some response to that on behalf of the team. (I actually don't believe this is the case - in JF's case certainly, he is amazing at portraying with eyes/face alone the thoughts/feelings of Sheppard and could easily have shown a spark of regret in his face even whilst continuing any conversation with Michael).

I did enjoy the stand-off between Sheppard and Michael and it was intruiging to get another glimpse of the rather more cold-blooded side of Sheppard's character. There were also many good lines in this ep – particularly memorable was Ronon’s “Actually I was thinking blow it up – but your idea’s better.”

Mitchell82
January 30th, 2007, 12:59 PM
My initial thoughts on the ep after first viewing:

Gotta say – I loved it!

First of all – it was so totally a remake of Aliens and I loved that! Hey, it’s a good film and one of my fave sci-fi movies! :D I chortled when Sheppard made reference to the Alien movies but he was talking about the first movie, Alien, whereas this ep was so Aliens – think about it:


settlers mysteriously disappeared and found all piled together in one place, all dead
marines being sent in to find the missing settlers
scary bug-like creature roaming the corridors and the good guys tracking their life signs
scary creatures using air vents/spaces between the floors etc to move around and get in and out of sealed off areas
finding the breeding ground of eggs/pods and blowing it up/setting fire to it


Lots of interaction to enjoy here:

I loved the sparring scene at the start with Ronon and McKay - yes it was funny but also a nice indication that those two spend time together outside of missions and that McKay is changing and growing as a character - much as he didn't seem to be enjoying it (or getting any better at it according to Ronon! :D), it's something new and interesting for him to choose to want to learn physical combat skills
Those who have complained of late that we never see McKay and Teyla spending time together; well now we have and it was good. I enjoyed that whole conversation of theirs - in Stargate terms, that was pretty deep stuff! ;)
Nice to see a) finally a mention of the retrovirus project being a mistake and having turned out SO bad and b) Ronon being the one to mention it – pointing out that he’d been against it from the start. I loved seeing Ronon really step up and not just blindly go along with the Earth team’s preconceptions/ideas but get in John’s face and tell him it was WRONG.
Interesting to finally see some discussion on the wraith as a culture and how much – or little – we know about them. Not only things like their reproductive methods but matters like what their lives are like.. what kind of like Michael might have had before we did what we did to him. Nice to see that whole grey area there actually being acknowledged.


I enjoyed the sense of tension of them searching the corridors with monsters after them etc – it was like a good old-fashioned scary movie! My main complaint on that front was that there were not enough repercussions.. I realise the gates are family-oriented shows but still... considering how dangerous and vicious these creatures were supposed to be.. Sheppard and co got into physical fights with them on several occasions and the only resulting injury was a small scratch to McKay's neck!

I'm also, I have to say, a little sick of seeing Teyla being captured/taken hostage/taken control of etc. I mean.. The Ark, Submersion and now Vengeance! I know we have complained that Teyla needs more development and more to do etc but having her do the same thing over and over does not equal development. It's actually making me start to get a little bit fed up of Teyla and I've always liked her character, even when she doesn't have much to do. Someone in the whump thread has actually posited and interesting - if worrying - theory; that TPTB whump Teyla because they don't know what else to do with her. *sigh* So they make her the victim needing saving every week... :S

And speaking of whump - in my, admittedly biased, opinion, we missed a wonderful opportunity here given Sheppard's history with the bugs. Given his hatred of them (and I would love to see that expressed/explored in more than
just jokey remarks to the effect that "I hate those bugs"!) and his past experiences etc with both the bug and the retrovirus.. how much more tense/scary etc would it have been to have Sheppard strapped to the table with an iratus bug slowly crawling towards his neck? Teyla can imagine how awful it is to be attacked by one of those things... Sheppard *knows*.

The other thing that bugged me a little here is - yeah, I'm gonna say it - the lack of mention of Carson. Now I am not expecting any huge amount of follow-up from TPTB on this, I really am not and I don't feel that they are doing a terrible disservice to his memory by not referencing him, I guess I've just gotten too cynical to expect that. BUT this entire episode revolved around the retrovirus that HE created, around what HE did to Michael etc etc. It not only would have been natural for his name to be mentioned but it actually seemed like they were deliberately avoiding doing so - the careful construction of Michael's references to what "your people" did to him etc and him carrying on "your" work on the retrovirus etc. He knows full well who is/was responsible for the retrovirus and he made damn sure he got personal with Beckett about it in Misbegotten so it does kind of jar now that he never even mentions him (he doesn't know he's dead, after all!).

It just kinda felt like TPTB were trying too hard to carefully phrase things so that his name wasn't mentioned cos if it was, they would have had to devote a moment or two of screentime that they could have spent on action to portraying some response to that on behalf of the team. (I actually don't believe this is the case - in JF's case certainly, he is amazing at portraying with eyes/face alone the thoughts/feelings of Sheppard and could easily have shown a spark of regret in his face even whilst continuing any conversation with Michael).

I did enjoy the stand-off between Sheppard and Michael and it was intruiging to get another glimpse of the rather more cold-blooded side of Sheppard's character. There were also many good lines in this ep – particularly memorable was Ronon’s “Actually I was thinking blow it up – but your idea’s better.”
This was a great ep. The Carson thing didnt bother me as much as you but I agree on most of your points. Loved the standoff too and I hope we see more of Michael/John soon!

silence
January 30th, 2007, 01:02 PM
don't get me wrong, but last 3 eps had similar sets.
i don't think they were bad, but third in a row?

sorry. i just wish TPTB had more imagination.
this would be good ep .. IF!!! .. there was no The Ark and Submersion

FoolishPleasure
January 30th, 2007, 01:19 PM
First of all – it was so totally a remake of Aliens and I loved that! Hey, it’s a good film and one of my fave sci-fi movies! :. . .
That has been the problem all season. TPTB are either snurtching from the SG1 script vault, or they are "borrowing" from movies. That they have to "copy" tells me one thing - they can't come up with anything new on their own. Its just bad writing all the way around.


I'm also, I have to say, a little sick of seeing Teyla being captured/taken hostage/taken control of etc. I mean.. The Ark, Submersion and now Vengeance! It's actually making me start to get a little bit fed up of Teyla and I've always liked her character, even when she doesn't have much to do. Someone in the whump thread has actually posited and interesting - if worrying - theory; that TPTB whump Teyla because they don't know what else to do with her. *sigh* So they make her the victim needing saving every week... :S
You forgot "Phantoms" too. Unfortunately, Teyla has become the poster child for "Mary Sue". She isn't my fav character, but she certainly doesn't deserve this treatment. They can't deal with Weir either. This just goes back to the old argument that these guys can't write strong female characters.


The other thing that bugged me a little here is - yeah, I'm gonna say it - the lack of mention of Carson.
You, and a lot of other people. ;)

Willow'sCat
January 30th, 2007, 01:37 PM
I really liked this one, and a hint of the soft rest is already beginning to show itself, the talk between Sheppard and Dex about the experiments was a good start but I am still pissed that Sheppard won't admit it verbally that it was a huge fraking mistake (although was Ronon really that dead set against them or was it more that he argued to just kill them all!). At least Weir is pretty much there now admitting it is all their fault, they are solely responsible for this frak up. But it is all rather late in the piece for me, the damage is done, I am not sure any amount of resetting is going to change that. :cool:

I did like the Ronon/Rodney sparing, even if once again the writer/s can't seem to write anything with McKay without going to the "make 'em laugh" clown school of entertainment. :rolleyes: And was that the same outfit David uses in A Dog's Breakfast? :D

Is it me or was Teyla flirting with Rodney? OK just me then.

I had no problem with Teyla being captured, she and Michael have a history it was always going to be Teyla. Sure I would like less boobs but hey men run the show, immature men apparently who think boobs are to be seen not protected behind clothing and vests. Just how much time did Michael take undressing Teyla? And why? :cool: :rolleyes:

Giant bugs! Well I am a Doctor Who fan from way back so I am kinda able to deal with that without cringing *too much* two of my fave Who eps had giant bugs! :D I have to say it works better when you don't see the monster and I think it would have been better here to not have had a man in a suit...;)

Oh and Chuck! Chuck got some lines! :D

Carson might have been nice in this but I get it now it was never about him, he may have created the virus but it was Sheppard and the others who gave the orders to use it, Carson was a just a small player in this frak up! :cool: Michael obviously agrees ;) and may I say CT did a great job with the little he had to work with, I want more Michael.

HyperCaz
January 30th, 2007, 01:55 PM
firstly, this Beckett fan was grumpy, not only with the lack of mention, but the fact that people seemed to be stealing his lines (eg. McKay saying "my dear") maybe I'm overreacting but it was just icing on the cake of my ANGER!

...that aside, loved the opening scene. Giggled insanely...were they channelling ADB?? I wonder where Rodney got that outift from hmmm... :D

The "Alien" idea was good, methinks, and I actually felt a little creeped out for once. Hmm can Chuck seriously not tell what sounds like Michael's voice by now....?

Despite the obvious lack of the man I love (lol), I really liked this episode. Although I am really sad that the volcano people bit the dust. Was half expecting to see Norina's corpse lol...but I guess if you gotta tie up loose ends haha. Glad to see that people are finally waking up to how bad the intial retrovirus stuff was.

'course the episode and story arc could reaaaaaaally do with a certain someone...

lunarleviathan
January 30th, 2007, 01:59 PM
This should have been a strong episode but it was pretty average. The super bugs were boring. The start of the episode, wandering around not knowing what was there, it was too similar a premise to the previous episode, Submersion.

Also, knowing that Michael was experimenting on other planets and has an army of super bugs, why didn't Shep try to scoop him up in the Dart? He was stood right next to Ronan and Teyla and didn't see it coming in time to react. Illogical.

Highly average, especially coming off the back of Submersion which was a FAR better episode with a few to many similarities.

Alipeeps
January 30th, 2007, 02:02 PM
Wow. I've read through the rest of this thread now and gotta say I'm pretty amazed at some of the "discussion". it's one thing to watch an ep and form an opinion on it and discuss its relative merits and/or lack of them.

It's another thing entirely to dismiss an ep out of hand and refuse to even watch it based on one tiny facet of the show - that a certain character doesn't get mentioned or that another character's bosoms are even slightly featured! :S


This was a great ep. The Carson thing didnt bother me as much as you but I agree on most of your points. Loved the standoff too and I hope we see more of Michael/John soon!

Oh it didn't bother me that much really - just something that occured to me whilst thinking about/discussing the ep. As I said, I'm not expecting or demanding that there be mention of Carson... it did just strike me as a little odd that in this ep they seemed to be going out of their way to not mention him...


Giant bugs! Well I am a Doctor Who fan from way back so I am kinda able to deal with that without cringing *too much* two of my fave Who eps had giant bugs! :D I have to say it works better when you don't see the monster and I think it would have been better here to not have had a man in a suit...;)


Well they did kinda do that a little - there was in interview a while back (sorry can't remember which one off-hand - it may have been one with DH actually) where it was mentioned that JF is a big fan of the filming style where you don't see the monster in full, you just get glimpses of a body part etc etc and that it's more scary to not show it in full and let the audience's imagination fill in the gaps, and that he had suggested this style of filming for this episode and that they'd decided to go with it. And thinking about it they never did really show us the monster in full.. just close up glimpses of body parts and seeing it in silhoutte or from a distance etc. Although i think really the set/lighting etc needed to be darker for that to really work as intended..

g.o.d
January 30th, 2007, 02:05 PM
It was funny.

Imagine this:you're walking with your team in the abandoned underground complex where is definetly something/somebody what/who wants to kill you/eat you/have a sex with you(remember B5:Crusade and that hyperspace creatures and Excalibur ship:) ) and the first thing you do is to split up the team a every member has to go alone in the dark corridors.

I would say "f*** you guys I won't go alone" :)

watcher652
January 30th, 2007, 02:07 PM
Did anyone catch what McKay said in that "Ropes was why I got bronze instead of silver in . . .? program? I couldn't make it out.

Participaction. Or ParticipACTION, actually, but I digress.

It was a government mandated physical fitness program run in Canadian public schools during the 70s and 80s (and possibly the 90s). Rope climbing wasn't a part of it when I had to participate, but I guess they could have changed it before my time.

I found it ironic that McKay said that to Teyla, since DH and RL are the only actors of the "main four" who actually would have conceivably known what ParticipACTION was.
Thanks for that explanation. That reminds me when Rodney mentioned in The Return 2 that "Well, I did win a Sears Drama Festival award when I was a kid." I had to look that up on the web to find out it's a real Ontario-wide festival held in Toronto, where DH is from. Hmm, I wonder if DH actually did win an drama award or that bronze ParticipACTION medal in real life. I remember reading somewhere that DH took Tae Kwan Do as a child, so that could explain the yellow belt. That would be interesting, making things from DH's real life part of Rodney's backstory. Just like both JF and Sheppard like Johnny Cash and surfing and golf. I'm just waiting for the skateboard to show up. :)

Rodney making a cultural reference that Teyla or Ronon wouldn't undertand is just Rodney as usual.

Alipeeps
January 30th, 2007, 02:08 PM
Hmm can Chuck seriously not tell what sounds like Michael's voice by now....?


Chuck never spoke to anyone. They received a "data transmission" from the marines. It was sent as a report, not an in person conversation.

Alipeeps
January 30th, 2007, 02:10 PM
That would be interesting, making things from DH's real life part of Rodney's backstory. Just like both JF and Sheppard like Johnny Cash and surfing and golf. I'm just waiting for the skateboard to show up. :)

I wish! I asked Joe about that at Expo and he said he keeps pitching the idea of Sheppard skateboarding or surfing in the show and TPTB keep turning him down! :lol:

ToasterOnFire
January 30th, 2007, 02:13 PM
This ep was far better than last week's Submersion and it had the added benefit of Michael, but there was enough holding it back from being a great ep.


The good:

-Anything with Michael is a good thing, especially when we get repeated confirmation that the team royally screwed up with the retrovirus arc. Uh, duh? Michael has proven himself a worthy, crafty villain, something Atlantis desperately needs after axing Kolya in such a stupid manner. It was also nice to see more of a gray morality brush painted here - no one is really innocent in this situation.

-Teyla had a lot of screentime, which was a nice compliment of her additional screentime in Submersion.

-Nice atmosphere in the beginning, very creepy.

-A Teyla/Weir scene! And a bonus Ronon/McKay bonding (sort of) scene!


The bad:

-Some of the dialog was off, especially the Shep/Michael scene and the flat "Dr. Evil" reference. Shep just doesn't snark like O'Neill did, so why try to write him as such?

-The control crystal is gone out of the DHD and Shep and co. just assume that McKay can magically fix it? Come on, I can't believe that the head offworld team is that daft when it comes to the DHD.

-I've grown weary of the closed hallway sets of impending doom, especially in episodes shown so close together.

-Also, trying to slam a door shut only to have a creature brace it with its hands? Complete horror movie CHEESE.

-Yet another Weir-light ep. Wow, there have been a lot of those in the second half. Guess TPTB are just easing the transition to recurring next year. :S

-The Big Reset Button has officially struck Carson. Funny, considering how his research was what created Michael in the first place... :mckay:

HyperCaz
January 30th, 2007, 02:18 PM
Chuck never spoke to anyone. They received a "data transmission" from the marines. It was sent as a report, not an in person conversation.

oh :D is what happens when attempting to write fanfic at the same time as watching....

even so, I'm just going to keep blaming chuck :cool:

spoilerfix
January 30th, 2007, 02:31 PM
The Vengence

Ronon and Rodney are sparring. Rodney's getting beat up when Weir and Shep walks into the gym. Weir says that the super volcano people from season 2 have been out of contact for a long time. So the team visits their new settlement, but no one is there. Rodney notices a life sign in an underground structure the previous inhabitants abandoned. The team checks it out. The settlers are found dead in a room. They all have wounds on their necks just like the way Iratus bugs leave on their victims. They explore more and encounters a huge man-like iratus bug. The Marine team sent by Weir arrives and contacts Shep. Shep, trying to see what's kind of enemy he's facing, orders radio silence. Then suddenly, a dart dials in and beams up the Marines. After finding out that their enemies are giant bugs, the team blows up a room with giant egg pods where bugs are hatching and goes outside to meet up with the Marines. They cannot find them, so they try to dial home, but are unable to b/c someone took the control crystal. So the team goes back to the underground facility and explores more and Tayla gets sidetracked and captured by no other, Michael. Michael explains that he was rescued by a Hive ship after Atlantis team left him on the humanish Wraith refuge planet. However, he was discriminated and barely escaped the Hive. With no family or friends and no where to go, Michael decided to create army of super wraith (Iratus bugs). Wraiths were created by Iratus bug DNA mixed with human DNA, but Michael, inspired by the retrovirus, creates a new method to create super Wraith bug thingy... (they look like huge Iratus bugs with arms and legs). He let bugs feed on human subjects as much as the bugs could until the subjects died. Then before the human DNA Iratus bugs had in them got broken down, he made bugs lay eggs. He manipulated human DNA of the embryos in the eggs to create his bug army. Shep, Ronon, and Rodney looks for Tayla and fights off some bugs. Michael release a bug on Tayla's tied body then leaves for some reason... Just as Tayla is about to be fed on, the rest of the team arrives and kills the bug. While Rodney and Tayla attempt to download info about bugs (Michael calimed that there are many more labs and many more super Wraith bug things), Shep and Ronon goes after Michael. Shep and Ronon fights off the bugs. Shep finds Michael's dart and fly it and beam up Ronon, Tayla and Rodney. He then uses the dart's DHD to dial home. Weir is surprised that Michael is alive and creating army of super bug things... She feels guilty b/c Michael found out about the super volcano people and other things from the database the Wraith stole at the end of season 2. Overall, this episode was great with a lot of actions and Alien-like monsters popping up and surprising even the viewers.

caien
January 30th, 2007, 02:41 PM
Disappointing, predictable, and a little fake. I'm terrified of insects, so I thought I'd at least be a little creeped out by an episode consisting almost entirely of the team fighting giant bugs. But I had such a hard time buying the bug-creatures that the whole episode didn't even faze me.

Michael said " 'your people' this" and " 'your people' that" that so many times it almost seemed like they were avoiding talking about Carson. I mean, it was his retrovirus.

I agree with the comments that say that Teyla doesn't seem to do much anymore except be a damsel-in-distress figure. But I did like how she actually contemplated what Michael's life was like pre-retrovirus. I'm surprised no one else brought it up before this episode.

sueKay
January 30th, 2007, 02:46 PM
my usual plea...

...any screencaps?

eta: found some!

Alipeeps
January 30th, 2007, 03:14 PM
Why have you posted this here when there is a) an entire forum for discussion of Atlantis Season 3 eps and b) an entire discussion post (within that folder) devoted solely to discussion of this very episode?

Agent_Dark
January 30th, 2007, 03:15 PM
Why have you posted this here when there is a) an entire forum for discussion of Atlantis Season 3 eps and b) an entire discussion post (within that folder) devoted solely to discussion of this very episode?

post count +1

Franklyn Blaze
January 30th, 2007, 03:30 PM
My only gripe was that the aliens got progressively easier to kill as the episode went on.
In the beginning it took 4 people to take one down, in the beginning the alien got away even.
Near the end Ronon is one hit KO'ing these guys, by himself. What's up with that?

prion
January 30th, 2007, 03:34 PM
One of the better episodes of the season imo. I guess the 'Zombies' (they kinda looked like the zombies from Half Life 2 imo) are gonna be the Atlantis version of the Super Soldiers in s4. Though slightly odd how they suddenly turned from 'extremely hard to kill' at the start of the episode, to Ronan picking them off with single shots on the run lol... :s Michael will probably be a fairly large antagonist in season 4 too, by the looks of it. They seem to be setting him up as a renegade Wraith who will be an enemy of both the Wraith and Atlantis.

Also, I think Team Shep needs a refresher course in military tactics.... All this wandering off by themselves, splitting up and going solo when facing an unknown number of hostiles, splitting up and going solo when their communications were jammed...., chattering away like no tomorrow when 'tracking' a bogey - in tunnels none the less (sound carries a long, long way in a tunnel...). I know Sheppard is the only US military officer on the team, but that's what training is for... Ronan and Teyla should be both adequately versed in US military tactics by now.

I'm probably the ONLY one who saw the creatures and thought, my god, BEMs!!! :) I figure the first time they were hard to kill with bullets, but once Ronon was able to get in there (remember, HE was the one being attacked) his marvelous laser pistol whatever did a good job. Chitinous shells can't fight off laser bolts.

As for the military tactics... well, so much reality is tossed out in the Stargates (both series). They went solo cuz, well, duh, they were stupid (and they read the script that said, let's separate them so we can put one in jeopardy - which was cool anyway). Would be good if one day it backfired terribly adn someone got injured and they had to face the reality that running to do what you want just doesn't always work. Hmm....fanfic....


No mention of Carson, in a story relating to his character's main (if not only) arc?

Submersion was forgiveable, but this isn't

I won't be watching this one either.


1. He was mentionned. Unless "your doctor" is someone else. ;)

2. The Atlantis team didn't mention him, but I actually found that to be quite believable. I think the fact of Carson being dead has people viewing the situation differently than they would otherwise. If they had time to go back to Atlantis and try and analyse Michael's data and didn't mention him, that would be one thing. But this... even if Carson was alive, it's very unlikely he'd get a direct mention in the middle of a battle (which this essentially was). The team would have been focused on the situation at hand and how to get out of it alive, and deal with the rest of it later. That is entirely realistic in terms of real military situations.

True. If Carson was alive, we wouldn't hear his name. Although I must admit there were one or two times when I thought Michael should have said "Dr. Beckett," instead of 'you people.'

This plot was very much the BEM flicks of the 50s (where yes, people separate but unlike in those movies, someone isn't eaten). Even the air ducts (which, by the way, Aliens ripped off It, the TError From Beyond Space - a classic BEM flick).

prion
January 30th, 2007, 03:49 PM
Oh, http://www.scifiquest.com/stargateatlantis/vengeancetranscript-stargateatlantis.php has transcript and screencaps. Ah, that beginning sequence with Ronon teaching McKay combat techniques. So funny! However, they shoudl have done a Kung Fu, not Jet Li, reference since David Hewlett had been in Kung Fu (TLC).... ;)

HyperCaz
January 30th, 2007, 03:52 PM
I got happy in the flashbacks at the beginning 'coz it meant seeing Carson LOL *is very, very sad individual*

Beckett is not a dirty word! I wanted to hear it, just once! They'd make me less cranky by mentioning it. :) I wonder if the hybrid thingies feed as well? Considering it's got the iratus bug DNA...

I am now very curious as to how Wraith reproduce and I doubt it would be through pods like the Alien thingoes were. I guess it's just down to what parts of the human DNA ended up in the genetic make up.

Ah yes. I was distracted. The amount of Carson in the flashbacks should certainly suggest that the story arc needs him. ;)

PG15
January 30th, 2007, 04:28 PM
I'll admit, it was a slight letdown from what I envisioned; I mean Trip...er...Michael was back! It could've been better. Still, I enjoyed what I was offerred; the pacing, as mentioned, was perfect, not to mention the setting as well. The first part had me on the edge of my seat; I was freaking scared man! I guess that's what happens when you rarely watch horror movies.

So, the points:

Michael; even though I wanted him to have more screentime, what he had was wonderfully portrayed by Connor Trinneer (who will forever be Trip to me ;)). I loved how he basically turned the retrovirus on its head and hammered back with all the issues we had with it right here on this board. I mean, what he was doing was pretty much what we did. And of course, Trinneer gave the wraith some personality; he was pissed when his "children" got blown up, and we can see how he felt that he was defeated when Shep took the Wraith dart. I CANNOT WAIT to see him again!

Pacing and Setting; like I said, even if the episode had shortfalls, these weren't part of it. Andy Mikita and the set guys did a wonderful job making the corridors small, dimly/scarily lit, and dirty; just enough to make the hairs on your back of your neck stand up throughout the entire episode (well, it worked for me). The music near the beginning was excellently done to build up the tension; I knew *something* was gonna pop up somewhere, and unfortunately, I was too chicken and turned the sound waaay down just before the first bug-guy popped up.

Speaking of them; Mikita did very well to film them just long enough and with enough movement to make them menacing, and yet not cheesy as with pretty much all movie monsters these days.

Team: if this isn't a team episode, nothing is (note: I'm not counting Weir since, technically, she's not part of the team). Pretty much everyone had something important to contribute, and they had pretty much an equal amount of dialogue, especially on that first walk back to the gate; it was like everyone was speaking every 4th line of dialogue or something. I liked John's referencing of Aliens, I liked McKay vs. Ronan at the beginning, I LOVED the Teyla and McKay scene where they "fleshed out" a bit more about Michael and how they felt about him, and of course, who can forget the timeless Ronan/Shep banter?

Speaking of Ronan (ain't I awesome at seguing?), he finally spoke about what's been on many fans' minds; namely, they screwed everything up with the retrovirus; it's good to know that the characters aren't totally oblivious about this sort of stuff.

Anyway, slightly disappointing compared to what I thought it would be, but solid episode nonethless.

Score: 8/10



*LOL* However, it would be nice if Teyla wore a UNIFORM off world. Oh, wait, she did, it just happened to pop open. Too bad Shep's "uniform" doesn't expose his chest every week. ;)

Well, it makes sense this time; the bug had to feed on her neck, which was partially blocked by that uniform.

memnarch
January 30th, 2007, 04:45 PM
I agree that it was a slight let down from what I was hoping for in Michael's return. First of all, what happened to all the other Wraith who had been altered in Misbegotten? Weren't they ostresized too? It's possible that they were all killed by the other Wraith and that only Michael escaped, but seriously there were about 80 of those altered Wraith on that planet!

I would have thought Michael would've been trying to find a way to create a Wraith/human hybrid with a Wraith's lifespan and a human's ability to eat non-sentient beings. That would've been productive, for him and his race.

Okay, rant over (sorta)! I loved the beginning with McKay and Ronon, but I would've liked it if it payed off later in the episode, like McKay keeping his eyes on an enemy and it working for him. I liked seeing Michael again, simply because now that Kolya's gone (don't even get me started on that!) Michael's the only villain on the show with a name. Seriously, start giving Wraith their own names! Teyla's continued sympathy will hopefully pay off eventually and gain some insight into who Michael really is and the Wraith as a whole.

The creatures started off okay, but I agree with some other posters here that they became progressively easier to kill and thus less threatening.

Overall, ** stars (but only because they didn't kill Michael like I thought I they would. I would've been seriously ticked off if they had)

Sweetsong
January 30th, 2007, 04:59 PM
It's good to see more character development on the wraith, in this instance Michael. Here we see how he could have been as important to the wraith as Mckay is to Atlantis, yet all that was taken away from him due to the retro virus experiment. Now Atlantis realizes they have created a monster. I look forward to seeing more run-ins with Michael in season 4.

Atlantean_Fan
January 30th, 2007, 05:04 PM
OK. If I'm allowed I have two questions to ask about this episode for those who have seen it.

1) Could it not be that the reason why the bugs got easier to kill is that each time there were less and less of them? If the über bugs were connect like the Wraith seem to be, it'd make sense.

2) What was the purpose of Michael's experiments? No one touched that point yet on this thread, only what they weren't about.

If anyone can answer these questions, I'd appreciate. Thanks in advance.

AF

EDIT: to add another question.

3) What backstory did we actually get on Michael?
I'm also glad that he wasn't killed off.

LoveConquers
January 30th, 2007, 05:15 PM
Participaction. Or ParticipACTION, actually, but I digress.

It was a government mandated physical fitness program run in Canadian public schools during the 70s and 80s (and possibly the 90s). Rope climbing wasn't a part of it when I had to participate, but I guess they could have changed it before my time.

I found it ironic that McKay said that to Teyla, since DH and RL are the only actors of the "main four" who actually would have conceivably known what ParticipACTION was.

Oh that's cool! Thanks for that! I wouldn't have known otherwise either. :)

LoveConquers
January 30th, 2007, 05:18 PM
Ok, Carson aside this episode was gooooooood. Easily one of my favorites of the series. Fantastic pacing, good atmosphere, and just the right balance of character and plot. This is exactly what so many fans have been asking for. I adore that they dealt with the dubious morality of the retrovirus arc without being preachy. I love all the character pair ups. Finally, finally, Teyla and McKay get scenes together. I love him calling her my dear. Weir's guilt was beautifully played. I loved her expressing that to Teyla. I loved that she got to express guilt at all. I love that this episode dealt with so many emotions and didn't shy away from them. Love, Love, Love. Plot elements and character elements don't have to be separate things. They can be combined, and this episode illustrated it. Rodney was finally shown as part of the team and not this guy the rest of the team put up with so he could save the day. And they lost! No one won in this episode, they merely survived, and that was wonderful.

Now Carson is the obvious elephant in the room, he wasn't mentioned at all. Regardless if in a Watsonian POV you can show why in a particular episode mentioning him wasn't needed, his death emotionally affected the audience. From a Holmesian POV, this needs to be addressed in how the episode is structured. The audience is part of the writing equation, making them feel, bringing them up, and then bringing them down, and I don't think the writers know how to deal with provoking and utilizing the audiences emotions well. In last weeks ep it wasn't so much Carson not being mentioned that bothered me, I wanted his loss to influence the other characters' behavior. It was odd that it didn't because it made the characters seem OOC. In this ep he should have been mentioned, not by the team, but by Micheal. And he kept referencing "Your People" and not "Your Doctor" or "Dr Beckett" It glared a bit. Internally this episode was fantastic, from the overall arc of the season, it needed something to fit it in. Or like Submersion, be mentally placed before Sunday. I'm already reorganizing it in my head :)

Did anyone catch what McKay said in that "Ropes was why I got bronze instead of silver in . . .? program? I couldn't make it out.

But I enjoyed this episode so much. It was what I'd been missing since Submersion wasn't the great episode I wanted. So I'm willing to forgive since Carson is not my favorite character. Though I understand why others are bothered.

Excellent post. I totally agree! :) Loved seeing the emotional and even the little bit of psychological impact as well. It's about time! Very cool.

LoveConquers
January 30th, 2007, 05:25 PM
I have to say, a little sick of seeing Teyla being captured/taken hostage/taken control of etc. I mean.. The Ark, Submersion and now Vengeance! I know we have complained that Teyla needs more development and more to do etc but having her do the same thing over and over does not equal development. It's actually making me start to get a little bit fed up of Teyla and I've always liked her character, even when she doesn't have much to do. Someone in the whump thread has actually posited and interesting - if worrying - theory; that TPTB whump Teyla because they don't know what else to do with her. *sigh* So they make her the victim needing saving every week... :S

And speaking of whump - in my, admittedly biased, opinion, we missed a wonderful opportunity here given Sheppard's history with the bugs. Given his hatred of them (and I would love to see that expressed/explored in more than
just jokey remarks to the effect that "I hate those bugs"!) and his past experiences etc with both the bug and the retrovirus.. how much more tense/scary etc would it have been to have Sheppard strapped to the table with an iratus bug slowly crawling towards his neck? Teyla can imagine how awful it is to be attacked by one of those things... Sheppard *knows*.



Well, to be fair, three eps out of what, 60, isn't a lot of Teyla whumpage. But I do agree that three eps practically in a row is a bit odd. But I'm not complaining because I'm just plain happy to see her being used! But I definitely see your point. The spacing most definitely could have been better.

Totally agree with your comments on John. I would have liked to see that history explored a little more as well.

Even so, like you, I really liked this episode a lot too!

Auralis
January 30th, 2007, 06:04 PM
Definetly one of the better sga eps lately. And a nice setup for more.
However, since they where going to write carson out of the show, i would have done this in this epsiode. And have him actually killed by michel's little pet bug with the team coming seconds to late to save him.

the emotional impact would have been much better and it would driven home the sheer stupidty of the retrovirus nicely. As well as highing up the tension after carson died because he was a main cast member.

jerkface
January 30th, 2007, 06:21 PM
OK. If I'm allowed I have two questions to ask about this episode for those who have seen it.

1) Could it not be that the reason why the bugs got easier to kill is that each time there were less and less of them? If the über bugs were connect like the Wraith seem to be, it'd make sense.


That could be...but, has it been established that the wraith are any weaker individually than they are as a group? I'm not saying your explanation is implausible, so much as that I think the writers didn't have any explanation in mind—they just made the bugs easier to kill when they needed to for the plot.



2) What was the purpose of Michael's experiments? No one touched that point yet on this thread, only what they weren't about.


Well, I think, for the most part, as the title suggests—for "vengeance." He also talked about being rejected by the wraith for being tainted, and about being betrayed by the humans, so I think he wanted to create his own family/means of vengeance on the galaxy.

I thought though, that Sheppard's "Dr. Evil" response was more apt than they intended it to be. Michael seemed smarter than this earlier on, and now I'm not sure what his long term goal is. To take over the wraith? To just kill as many humans as possible? To prove himself to both sides? To replace both wraith and humans with these new beings?

This last seems most believable to me, but at the same time, he certainly didn't seem to respect his new creations; he was upset at the destroyed pods, but then he sent others off to fight without any qualms. He didn't seem to see them as equals anyway...

Maybe they're still beta versions of what he ultimately wants to create?



3) What backstory did we actually get on Michael?


None really. We got Teyla's speculation about his being an intelligent wraith scientist, but that's about it. I was surprised at how little the team seemed to know about wraith at this point. They've had dead wraith in the past to experiment on (hence the retro virus), and now a dead queen, but they're still not sure how they reproduce? Didn't all their Season 2 dealings with the wraith give any insight into their culture?

-Overall, I found this episode disappointing, but I couldn't force myself to care enough to be more than bored and annoyed.

Maybe I've seen too many horror films (or science fiction shows) but the bugs didn't seem scary to me at all. It didn't help that the team didn't seem all too frightened either.

As nonniemous mentioned above, all the exposition did seem to come in chunks, though I found it a better than the aimless running back and forth. Nonetheless, even when Ronon and Teyla were voicing some of the problems with the retrovirus and the wraith that I'd had, it fell flat for me.

Ronon's previous dislike of the retrovirus had been caused by his lack of sympathy for the wraith, but here he seemed more like a voice of morality.

Similarly, while it was more in character for Teyla to be sympathetic with others, she has much more of a reason to hate the wraith than the Earth people. I can see how her relationship with Michael might have changed her feelings somewhat, but this hasn't been developed enough previously; it felt far too sudden here.

It all just felt sloppy, with the previous Michael and the retrovirus plotlines referenced, but not really dealt with. Story development seemed pushed to the wayside in favor of action scenes (that never got too exciting themselves).

This was the problem, for me, of not having Beckett here; Michael could talk to Teyla about the personal side of the humans' betrayal, but Beckett would have been the science side. And if Michael were a scientist, wouldn't he have been a geneticist (like Beckett) not an astrophysicist (like McKay)?

Even if they had somehow written better dialogue for Michael in this respect, I'm still not sure why they couldn't have had Sheppard and McKay reacting more to the ethical issues brought up by Teyla and Ronon. It made them seem strangely callous.

Finally, it's fine to have Weir look stunned (again) when they give her the news on their return, but it felt like another moment where the female characters are given the remorseful or cautious reaction, while the men are either stoic (Sheppard, Ronon) or comically frightened (McKay).

I don't know...it just feels like another step on the show's descent into utter lameness. :ronon:

h22chen
January 30th, 2007, 06:37 PM
Another civ. bites the dust...

Cory Holmes
January 30th, 2007, 06:38 PM
My only gripe was that the aliens got progressively easier to kill as the episode went on.
In the beginning it took 4 people to take one down, in the beginning the alien got away even.
Near the end Ronon is one hit KO'ing these guys, by himself. What's up with that?

It's called adjusting your tactics. McKay told them to shoot the underbelly and other "soft" parts and Ronan is a good enough shot to aim for those points. Such as the inside of the mouth, the underbelly, etc.

That part was good for me, but the episode as a whole was muuuch better than some of their other fare. All of the characters had moments where they did their jobs, they were all in-character, and it was GREAT to see some consequences to previous story arcs.


Wasn't it not that long ago when we were clamouring for just that sort of secondary plots? Now we're getting it and I love it. Now we've got the Wraith, the Asurans, and now Michael. The Pegasus Galaxy is turning into a much more interesting place than it was before.

jenks
January 30th, 2007, 07:02 PM
Would of been a good episode, if not for the horrible effects...

smushybird
January 30th, 2007, 07:24 PM
Were the bugs like what Jewel Staite's character turned into? Or more buggy? Did McKay getting scratched(?) suggest they're going to do to him something along the lines of BugSheppard?
I liked it better when new eps began in January.

Lorr
January 30th, 2007, 08:29 PM
This will be brief because I am sure it's all been said. I liked it, a lot. It was dark (I am so happy TPTB listened to JF), both visually and psychologically. The little chickadees have come home to roost. Loved Ronon telling John what he really thought. Loved the fear in John's eyes and whole body. Loved the little CGI bug. I would have also loved mention of Carson, but don't really see where it would have fit in, even remotely, without it sounding false. Of course, there were some holes, but it is television and they had only 43 minutes to tell the story.

[SGC_ReplicÅtors]
January 30th, 2007, 09:31 PM
i loved it when they said aliens and air shaft...rodney pointed his gun at it lol couldnt stop luaghing....man those bugs look like predaliens..

Willow'sCat
January 30th, 2007, 10:55 PM
Were the bugs like what Jewel Staite's character turned into? Or more buggy?Or more buggy? :p

Well they kind of looked like Teenage Ninja Turtles only they were bugs not turtles... :p You didn't see them all that clearly, but really even with CGI which I assume was used, they still looked fake ;) not as fake as Doctor Who of the classic days *bless 'em* but still fake IMHO, I mean even if I was 30 years younger :D I don't think I would have been scared of them at all, also it was all guns blazing! We didn't really get a moment of Bug/Team member face off it was more Bug *loud music* Team member shoots or hacks at Bug. Bug dies.


Did McKay getting scratched(?) suggest they're going to do to him something along the lines of BugSheppard? Glad you asked, because I thought that when it happened but then I forgot about it afterwards... so who knows maybe. I kind of hope not, been there done that but still... McKay as bug. I could get behind that. :D


I liked it better when new eps began in January.I didn't. :) LOL!

gatinha
January 30th, 2007, 11:09 PM
hey...I read some comments about "not mentioning CARSON" or anything...
I just remembered MARTIN GERO comment at season 2 DVD....he mentioned about SGA being aired in sydicate or something....so every episode has an ending....one episode could be related to other ..... but also could not....so I geuss that's why they didn't mention about Carson ....also considering the shooting process was not done just for one episode but for some episodes...then went into editing process....

bluealien
January 30th, 2007, 11:39 PM
I'm also, I have to say, a little sick of seeing Teyla being captured/taken hostage/taken control of etc. I mean.. The Ark, Submersion and now Vengeance! I know we have complained that Teyla needs more development and more to do etc but having her do the same thing over and over does not equal development. It's actually making me start to get a little bit fed up of Teyla and I've always liked her character, even when she doesn't have much to do. Someone in the whump thread has actually posited and interesting - if worrying - theory; that TPTB whump Teyla because they don't know what else to do with her. *sigh* So they make her the victim needing saving every week... :S

I didnt see her being whumped per say - it was a natural follow up that Michael would want to pick out Teyla as she was the one who "befriended" him and whom he had the closest connection. But if it had been Shep who had been taken by Michael, or whumped in the last few eps then that would have been fine - I don't think we would hear of anyone complaining that the writers didnt know what to do with him, or that he wasnt been developed if HE was whumped in several eps.

I loved the ep - loved the dark and dank setting which really added to the atmosphere. The opening scene with Rodney and Ronan was hilarious and I enjoyed the scenes between John and Ronan. Loved Michael - always a pleasure to see Connor Trinneer and I thought he portrayed the part wonderfully - he came across as someone who had nothing left to live for, because the Atlanteans had taken everything away from him, and the scene with Shep where he lowers his gun really showed this.


All over a very entertaining episode and one I will watch again.

9/10

travis
January 31st, 2007, 01:34 AM
Bit dissipointed with this ep, to Aliens and predetor like but other wise watchable.
Micheal was a bit of a joke in this ep he seem to lost his edge.

Vicky
January 31st, 2007, 01:39 AM
Well, the first half was a bit boring IMO but the rest of the ep was interesting.

Super!Wraith, well they've done SuperSoldier before...
Michael's experiments are just payback for what they've done to him. That was kinda expected.

Otherwise they hadn't mentioned Carson that was sad. But again in SG1 besides one or two eps they hadn't mentioned Janet after her death...

mrtvr4
January 31st, 2007, 02:24 AM
This was the first episode of both SG-1 and Atlantis that I can confidently say was ****.

Atlanis
January 31st, 2007, 02:52 AM
Couldn't they have showen this during halloween, and thoes monsters they're very simalar to a creature used in MMPR (mighty morphin' power rangers)
Ep: 69 i think, come on rip off something we don't know about

macktheknife
January 31st, 2007, 03:03 AM
An awesome episode. A counter-point to The Defiant One, it takes a similar story (team vs 1 alien), sends it underground and then twists it with micheal and the escape. Awesome indeed. Best episode since Tao Of Rodney, and in the top 3 of the season at least with Tao and Sateda.

AlphaBlu
January 31st, 2007, 03:47 AM
what a crappy way of deciding what you do and don't watch.

I find it more odd that they'd come into a thread about an episode and tell us all how they're not going to watch it. I'm going to start going to forums for video games I don't like, and just tell people that I'm not going to play them. That seems like an excellent use of my time.


Anyway, yes, Vengeance. I really enjoyed it. Much better than The Ark and even Submergence (or whatever it was called). My only beef was the 'Wow they're hard to kill' to 'BANG BANG BANG!' at the end.

Ronan's little speech to Sheppherd about being wrong was very good. 'Bout time he said it.

BYE

Cory Holmes
January 31st, 2007, 04:52 AM
I also really liked how Michael is fixated on Teyla, for good or ill. The others Atlanteans hurt and changed him, but she's the one who betrayed him. Pretended to be his friend, then ripped that away when their little Grade 8 Science Experiment blew up in his face.

It's a natural, perfectly reasonable extrapolation from that beginning to where he is now. And with Koyla gone, the A-Team needs another named enemy to contend with.

MechaThor
January 31st, 2007, 05:25 AM
Wow thsi episode was not only the best in this series so far yet the mutant half human bug cretures are the best thing to happen to altantis.
There are fianlly something "Alien" in the show. More so than the Wraith themselfs. Men in monster suits are always gd sci-fi.

Gd Points:
-The Alien Monsters looked cool, are great bad guys and very intresting
-Ronan exsplaning about how they failed their retro project
-Mckay and Teyla talking about Wraith life styles. Intresting stuff
-The set looked cool with the green lighting
-A very nice and much missed Sci-fi story Trapped people vs Evil alien monsters.
-The Iratis bug looked very cool in its new CGI. every time we see it its always better.
-Going back to past episodes. and cultures we have met.
-The monster noise reminded me of the raptors from Jarrasic Park. SWEET!
-2 writh stories in a row. Take that replicators 2.0.

Bad (minor) points:
-Dark sets ment you could not see the aliens in full glory.
-"hay look heres a ladder to the surface" that was lucky
-how the monsters where just far enought away to not get beamed up.

mcbarr
January 31st, 2007, 07:30 AM
So Michael is Dr. Frankenstein now, and we have a bunch of Alien/Species-like predators on the loose. Hmm, I could swear I've seen this before! ;) Despite that, I must confess I enjoyed watching the ep. I think TPTB are finally toning down the funny stuff that was really going out of control on SGA, and delivering real sci-fi to the fans. Besides, when you come to think of it, Wraith 2.0 is not a terrible idea at all. Let's see how it works out...

7/10

Commander Ivanova
January 31st, 2007, 07:34 AM
Sheppard has got pretty conveniently handy with the dart beaming technology, hasn't he? Managed not to scoop up any of the bad guys.

Liked the Alien-style aliens tho there were a couple of moments where they looked too much like just a guy in a suit.

Not a bad ep. 7/10

Prior_of_the_Ori
January 31st, 2007, 07:59 AM
I liked the episode, was quite nice. The Wraith episodes seem a lot darker and scarier then the Asuran ones though still going to be open about the Asurans in case they surprise me.

The monsters were very interesting, very alien-ish. And he has quite a few of them.. though I wonder what he is going to do with them. I mean they look a lot more animalistic then intelligent which other Wraith are. Loved the comment about Aliens and ventilation shafts, the life signs detector reminded me of the movie in some of the spots in this episode. Also the reprecussions from working with Micheal such as the retrovirus as well as the fate of the people of that planet. I think we also got a sight of how the Wraith evolved in this episode.

Also, what happened to the other Wraith Hybrids like Micheal? Were they killed? Kind of implied when he said he almost died when attempting to flee from the Hiveship but I wonder if he has made his own little cult of 'hybrids'. Another question which seems addressed in the episode is that the team really have no clue how Wraith society works especially in cases of reproduction.

While it was cool, I think Micheal didnt seem to have much life in him in this episode. Very... resigned, not as passionate as he was previously. But anyway, I hope they don't throw this storyline away next season as it looks very interesting. I mean could Micheal become Atlantis's version of Anubis? Or just another replacement Kolya? Anyway, very nice.

Pitry
January 31st, 2007, 08:44 AM
Could have lived without the horror movie-esque bits. Horro movies are dumb, and I'm usually rlling my eyes at them - and there was definitely eye rolling at thsi one.
Could have lived without the bug-people-creatures. I don't understand the reasons for introducing them to the story, especially at this point. They add nothing. They arleayd have Asurnas and wraith, what's the point in adding cheesy bug people?
Could have lived without what they did to Michael in here. I dunno. I lloved the Michael storyline so far. thought it added depth to the wratih. But after Submersion adn Vengeance, the wraith are thrown back and back to square one.
I'm not going to even bother bringing up the obvious Carson comments.

I did like - Ronon. Ronon and McKay, specifically - I really enjoy the banter they've been developing int he alst several episodes - but also Ronon, as a whole. Enjopying the scene he told Sheppard they should kill Michael and that no one listened to him the first time he said that, and generally, I thinkt hey're finally hitting pace with teh character. Now, if only the thing would have been as true for Teyla as it is for Ronon....

Bright side. T'was better than last week's, sigh.

smushybird
January 31st, 2007, 11:47 AM
Or more buggy? :p

Well they kind of looked like Teenage Ninja Turtles only they were bugs not turtles... :p You didn't see them all that clearly, but really even with CGI which I assume was used, they still looked fake ;) not as fake as Doctor Who of the classic days *bless 'em* but still fake IMHO, I mean even if I was 30 years younger :D I don't think I would have been scared of them at all, also it was all guns blazing! We didn't really get a moment of Bug/Team member face off it was more Bug *loud music* Team member shoots or hacks at Bug. Bug dies.

Glad you asked, because I thought that when it happened but then I forgot about it afterwards... so who knows maybe. I kind of hope not, been there done that but still... McKay as bug. I could get behind that. :D

I could too. :) ScaryBugMcKay kicking ass. :D Supervillain for a while, instead of superhero. He's my hero. Wow, if SGA's fake bugs remind you of Dr. Who...that's not saying much for SGA. :D:D I have to agree with the poster who said some damage has to be done to our guys if the writers want us to believe the bugs are dangerous and scary. Sounds like they were too easily dispatched. There was more whump in the old Dr. Whos...

It's time for some episodes that really knock the team flat, batter and bruise them, break some bones, let them survive by a hair's breadth, make them really work with every last resource to get back home safe. We've had a couple like that. Sateda, I think, at least for Ronon. And Phantoms.


I didn't. :) LOL!

Well, that's cuz you're naughty as McKay! :D

lord-anubis
January 31st, 2007, 11:50 AM
danm air staffts lol

good ep i wasten likeing in the being but it trun out ok and its good to see michal again

stewsith
January 31st, 2007, 01:38 PM
Great episode. My friend and I were both saying it was like the movie 'Alien' just a second before Sheppard said it and we both burst out laughing. They had a chance to mention carson when talking about the retro virus, I hope they havent completely forgotten him!

vaberella
January 31st, 2007, 01:55 PM
This was a bb ep...

Bloody Brilliant!!!

I can't talk enough about it, there is no rating of this ep, it was just fantastic. Now be prepared for slight exclamaitions, recriminations, and chastisement of different things based on this ep, but it is definitely one of the best eps, reminiscint of S2 (my personal-fave season, which is getting beaten by S3).

About the ep in general: I wasn't feeling the beginning because I kept getting the feeling like I was watching Alien, so to hear John make comment on that was funny, especially since before I even saw Submersion I kept asking for an ep on the abyss (and unfortunately Submersion less than lacking when comparing it to The Abyss). That being said, I wasn't really looking forward to this ep that much since also I didn't hear the amount of chat on it that I dealt with when Sunday aired or even Submersion for that matter. But despite the Alien look, and the plastic Super-Iratus hands, I was okay with it. I even liked the cocoon thing, it brings back the S1 ep The Underground...and the connection with Conversion was great!! I also liked the division of the team with McKay/Teyla and Ronon/John, great great division and still great chemistry and team unity. This is one of the best pieces of great writing for an episode and story. Plus it definitely took into consideration fan complaints, except for maybe mine in regards to leadership.


Let's begin...it's not all nice.

Weir is the lucky lady in spoiler tags, since most people will probably be offended by what I say; since I've seen people take character criticism personally. :D Spoiler tags will be my wordless disclaimer. So don't whinge to me later, I give you a chance to ignore it.

:weiranime22: Ahhh...Weir, Weir, Weir, I don't know what to say about this woman. I just don't know what to say...when she says to Teyla at the end...'WE let him get the info when he was last here on Atlantis' (paraphrasing) I almost threw something at the screen. Revolting, take the blame, because YOU are at fault---Miss Executive Decision Maker/Final Decision Maker/Last Point of Okay's!!! Teyla and John, said...'Don't let him run free' She listened to Carson and Heightmeyer over her second in command AND his second---It's YOUR fault we're in this bloody mess. Not to mention you had the experiments and him brought back to Atlantis, no one else has that authorization...and she's talking about 'we' there is no 'we'. I am disgusted by this woman's attitude:mad: . There is no shared blame here, Carson is now dead. Heightmeyer is less than insignificant...

Michael was able to get his info before the second time, where Teyla was completely against his full freedom and what not, ditto for John, so this is on you. Take bloody responsibility. As for the marines, she did pose the logical questions, so her leadership or lackluster part on that meant nothing to me, since I guess I would believe the same. As for the final part, no way in caboodles...she needs to own up here and drop the 'We' and take on the 'I', although if she did say that, I would probably say she was fishing.

:mckay: Good Mckay, he was real funny, I really liked this ep for him, although I do have one point to say. You'd think that McKay would carry around duplicate crystal keys, especially after 'Lost Boys', it's too convenient that the wraith dart was near by. And no, I don't find carrying spare duplicate copies of gate crystals convenient. :D :D

:ronan: So true, so true, so true. Ronon was true to form. He was telling like it is and I'm lovin' it!! I was like yes, you and Teyla were on the same page, but she was more supportive of the Atlantean decision, but overall he did say, 'Hell no!!' even if he did follow suit with the team. I loved Ronon in this ep, it was a great ep for him and finally no lap dog to the rest of the team and put in some more thans than just brute force. Not to mention I was getting a bit tired of seeing Ronon being b***h slapped around, or having his ass handed back to him. It becomes a bit disheartening to say the least. I loved his mini he-man sword, it was cool, and came in useful. Much props to the scene with him and Rodney it was funny. It was realistic.
**Although I'm still holding out on my Teyla teaching Zelenka:teylaanime03: :zelenka25: :ronananime25: scene (that's a not-so subliminal message to writers to put that scene in...)

:sheppard33: Well, it was Shep. I don't know what more to say than that. I mean it was Shep saying he hates bugs, it was Shep in shades, it was Shep biting his tongue when Ronon started laying down the truth, cause he knows Ronon is right. It was Shep listening to his second in command who had a very logical and definitely healthier plan (thank you Teyla) and it was shep looking good in black. I like Shep. Shep is good, pretty much as is. Oh and it's Shep buffed up and against Michael, so all was good for me around Shep. Bit of superficial and bit good support, I think he was fantastic, but there was nothing overtly dynamic than seeing him react to Teyla and Ronon, so that was his plus. Further more, another great ep that proves my point that Teyla does not take order's from John, she chooses to follow suit if she cannot think of something better. But she steps up and makes him listen when he's wrong.


:teyla25: Now, what's up with Tey getting kidnapped again. Now if a similar incident didn't happen in lets say The Ark, I really wouldn't have a problem now. Her whumping is good for me, since I like it, but really---It's a bit done too much, although it definitely fits more so here. Rather than having her kidnapped in The Ark, she should have been hurt or something, that would have flowed well and not seemed too over one, but realistic. How did Teyla do in this ep? She did great, logical moment with John, understand her commentary with Michael, and anyway I just like any scene she shares with Michael---there's serious energy there. If you're wondering, I would be a shipper for them; but there's way way way way way way way too much baggage, they'd kill each other. In Michae's first statement, when he said something about sharing and reversing the retro-virus; I thought he was gonna make Teyla his queen...don't ask, just don't ask!! :D Otherwise, it was the same old Teyla.

** Oh and in the scene with the big bug showing his face, I thought I was gonna have to deal with a Teyla raped by a Bug scene...more disgusting things have been known to be thought. Yes, but then I saw the mini bug who changed that idea.

****Oh and I find Teyla getting kidnapped or captured is like Ronon getting slapped around like a... ( you know what I'm getting at) this season! :D :D :D

:wraith34: <---That's Michael. :D Okay so Michael was great, I love Vengeance and him showing up. I like the new enemy and how this adds to the show and storyline. It's bloody great, now I have the Wraith, the Asurans, and a new enemy who's easily blasted away by Ronon's gun. Of course in next season they'll make them far more resilient, becuase I'm sure Michael will having problems with how easy they were to kill by Ronon's gun and work on that, which will be great.

This ep makes me look forward to S4, so I loved it and definitely beat out Sunday and Echoes and goes right behind Sateda, Progeny, and the Return I. :D


Bloody Brilliant!!!

Luz
January 31st, 2007, 03:56 PM
Oh SGA, I wanted to give you a chance, I really did, but what a yawn fest, couldn't get past the first half. And Teyla gets kidnapped yet again, how original, if they're going to repeat themselves they should have at least waited a season, not make it that obvious.
Meh!, I wanna watch Atlantis, but what episode should I watch?, the other one where Teyla gets kidnapped, or the one where she gets possessed?, I think tptb have finally found a use for Teyla, she's officially become SGA's damsel in distress, she's becoming quite the caricature.
I hope First Strike turns out to be good, there should be at least one good episode in the last part of the season, a dignified end to a season that showed so much promise.

Suzotchka
January 31st, 2007, 04:10 PM
Started off good, ended up being a bit boring.

And can I say - WHY is Teyla still on the team? She hasn't contributed ANYTHING to the episodes at all this season - other than being kidnapped. (And that is the fault of the writers. Once again letting a good actress go to waste.)

Overall, not a bad episode and I would probably watch it again.

Celede
January 31st, 2007, 04:23 PM
Started off good, ended up being a bit boring.

And can I say - WHY is Teyla still on the team? She hasn't contributed ANYTHING to the episodes at all this season - other than being kidnapped. (And that is the fault of the writers. Once again letting a good actress go to waste.)

Overall, not a bad episode and I would probably watch it again.

Ok, did you see 'Submersion' at all? Lay off Teyla, she does more good than others...

Luz
January 31st, 2007, 04:32 PM
WHY is Teyla still on the team?
I guess it's so that they've got someone to rescue. :P

NubianQueen
January 31st, 2007, 05:21 PM
I just saw "Vegeance" and all that I have to say is that for the whole entire Michael/Teyla scene, for the life of me, I could not take my eyes off of her cleavage, lol. I must of watched that scene like 7 times already. Just watching Rachel breath in and out in that black tanktop. My GOODNESS!!! I need a screen cap of her on that examination table, lol.

But I do agree, for a warrior woman they need to stop having her end up like the "damsel in distress", they did that to Carter for the longest time and I hated it.

And quit making her the first one to get shot on a mission, its sexist!!!!


NQ

NubianQueen
January 31st, 2007, 05:28 PM
Ok, did you see 'Submersion' at all? Lay off Teyla, she does more good than others...

I agree lay off Teyla.

Teyla contributes to her team, just like all of her male counterparts. She tends to be the diplomatic one, a true explorer, there to help make allies whenever possible.


NQ

Ice Wolf
January 31st, 2007, 05:29 PM
And quit making her the first one to get shot on a mission, its sexist!!!!


NQ

But when they shoot Rodney first its comic relief and shooting Ronon he sshrugs it off and acts like it didn't happen, and they cant shoot Shep first repeatedly hes meant to be the hero type guy, and when a red shirt gets shot its the end of them, and Weir doesn't go on enough missions to get shot first all the time.

btw i think the top and cleavage shots are probably more sexist than her getting shot first LMAO (not that im complaining).

Lightbane
January 31st, 2007, 05:51 PM
Great Episode, I loved the whole action/horror type thing they had going there Vengence is probably for me been the best episode this season apart from Return Part II.

Firsty the opening scene with Rodney and Ronon was soo funny Rodney learning to use swords lol!

Second it was obvious that Weir jumped the gun and sent those poor marines to their deaths ot you could look at it the other way and say the marines were dumbasses for not jumping into the bushes when theres a dart coming, is it really intellegent to stand in the path of a dart when you could easily get beamed aboard?

Third, major Aliens feel that is one of my favourite action/horror movies and it was nice for the writers to finally get back to one of the more action packed episodes. Remember Michael said that "There were many failures" meaning that the ones that Ronon was probably cutting down were Michaels earlier experiments that were failures and were also quite weak.

Fourth when they were talking about the retro-virus there wasn't any need to bring up Carson if there was then it would have seemed quite forced there was no need to mention Carson there just from listening to the dialogue you already know who Michael is talking about there no need to actually say his name i think the writers did a great job with bringing up the whole retro-virus thing

Score: 9/10 only one thing that takes it down for me is that The Shroud was better

Lauriel
January 31st, 2007, 06:47 PM
I thought this was a great ep. I loved the team interaction. I loved them questioning the morality of the retrovirus and the subsequent events. I absolutely loved Ronon arguing with Shep and standing by his principles.

I think the darker tone of the ep really worked and I really liked them picking up the Michael arc in this fashion. I hope they are setting this up so they can follow it in s4 rather than having it as a stand alone ep.

Ronon's line about liking Sheps idea better cracked me up too.

RE Carson - I don't think it would have worked to mention him in this ep. It would be wildly inappropriate for the team to mention him when they are being chased by superbugs, for starters. As for the scene with Michael/Teyla, the only avenue I can see mentioning Carson would be for Michael to mention he would like to seek revenge on Carson, which would lead to Teyla saying too late. Once that's done, the only two options would be for Michael to either let the comment pass or to gloat over Carson's death. Since I can't see many fans being to enthusiastic over this, I think it was a far more graceful option to simply not mention Carson in this scene. Personally, I wouldn't expect to hear much mention of Carson until they introduce Keller, and I wouldn't expect too much in that scene either. It may be appropriate to have mention of him in some scenes at a later date.

NowIWillDestroyAbydos
January 31st, 2007, 07:05 PM
I've got to say it was a very dark episode. Those "Super-Wraith" were scary, huge SOBs, that's all I'll say. I give it a **1/2.

1 week until the season finale.

Lightbane
January 31st, 2007, 08:46 PM
heh Teyla doesn't 'Wraith super-powers' its just that she can sense them and connect with their minds

and yeah those bugs did look pretty stupid, but then again they were Michael's 'failures'

vaberella
January 31st, 2007, 08:57 PM
Started off good, ended up being a bit boring.

And can I say - WHY is Teyla still on the team? She hasn't contributed ANYTHING to the episodes at all this season - other than being kidnapped. (And that is the fault of the writers. Once again letting a good actress go to waste.)

Overall, not a bad episode and I would probably watch it again.

Are any of the women important?! Really now?!

:teyla: Besides being the voice of reason and throwing a few ninja kicks, she does nothing.

:weir: Besides giving out a few orders that Chuck could do on his down time, she does nothing---doesn't even give me ninja kicks and apparently never will.

Both women are glorified extras, at this point...I'm over it!! Three seasons later nothing added nothing really taken away.


Ok, did you see 'Submersion' at all? Lay off Teyla, she does more good than others...

Let them be, it's not like any of the ladies achieve nothing, at least some do more than other's...like know how to dial a gate?! :D


I just saw "Vegeance" and all that I have to say is that for the whole entire Michael/Teyla scene, for the life of me, I could not take my eyes off of her cleavage, lol. I must of watched that scene like 7 times already. Just watching Rachel breath in and out in that black tanktop. My GOODNESS!!! I need a screen cap of her on that examination table, lol.

But I do agree, for a warrior woman they need to stop having her end up like the "damsel in distress", they did that to Carter for the longest time and I hated it.

And quit making her the first one to get shot on a mission, its sexist!!!!


NQ

Dude you're not the only one. I even said, that stupid bug got an upclose and person with TT (Teyla (you know?!))---the place all the men on SGA long to get a hold of (all said tongue in cheek:cool: ).

By the one she's not the first one to get shot in a mission, that's normally a title given to McKay (thank [insert diety] my man got a break)!!

The 'damsel in distress' is the best way it seems for them to portray women. Weir is shown to have a big mouth when she's flanked by about 5 men, and then put in her place ie by Caldwell, Kolya, and others, when alone. Teyla is the sympathetic zen mama, who unfortunately is given the title as the 'voice of reason'---with rarely any complexity at times---Trinity and Letters of Pegasus gives us something more out of the norm for her.

Until some of these guys decide to hang out with different women and possibly model their women after women in their daily lives, ie their mum's, aunts, and sisters---then we'd see some originality. Mainly both these women give me the impression at times of being the ideal female--who falls short by 'feminine attitudes'<---take note said in parenthesis.

Teyla is the ninja female---ie Xena, who's empathic like Gabrielle, it's like Xena and Gabrielle in one---like they couldn't decide.

Weir is like...Judge Judy in her first year as judge. :D Not bad, not good---but needs to be emotionless to get the job done.<--sarcasm :mad:




BTW, what is Michael's reasoning behind these things? they can't operate weapons, so a good sniper could demolish his army. Shepp could even just hover the puddle jumper 15ft. up, and pick them off w/ ease.

And what's w/ Teyla being the hostage/captive all the time? Isn't she the strongest member of the team? Ronan's tough and all, but Teyla has Wraith super-powers. It just seems sexist to have the super powered chick getting captured so often.


My answer to the first is this, the motivation is to have protectioni against both humans and wraith. Those things look like they take orders from only one person, that's Michael---so they don't care if you're wraith or human. Secondly they have wraith strength and also may be unaffected by the wraith stunner, which seems to be the ONLY real weapon of the wraith; ie, Ronon on stun was not working. Unfortunately they are still weak when taking into Ronon, but also remember that Michael is still running tests, and I get the feeling this was one of his tests to see how they do against Atlantis army weaponry. They withheld really well against basic earth weapons, but not so well against Ronon's plasma guns. Which means he's gonna have to develop something a bit stronger to with stand that, but based on numbers---he's got that down so that's okay. Or, it would seem the Atlantis team would need to be able to get plasma guns, and lots and lots of C4.

Yeah Teyla is the strongest, but again she's up against Micheal, he has a this really great mental hold on her, that borders on the emotional so that's something to take into consideration. Not only that I think they threw some of the eps to close together, like Submersion should have aired earlier or at least The Ark, because the back to back thing is not working out to their advantage.

I don't know if it's sexist, since this is logical and so was Submersion, I'm do think that The Ark one could have been left out and they could have done better in achieving a similar end, but that's about it for Teyla captured, she was alright the rest of the season (oh right, cause she really wasn't used :( :mad: ).

Sorry to say I prefer this of Teyla over Ronon getting smacked around all the time. That's becoming tedious, since he is the strongest male, but we have eps like Progeny, squated like a fly; Sateda, he gives a great battle cry and the Wraith pulls out an arm, like he's stretching and Ronon is kissing cement; or don't get me started on The Return II, where his hair became his liability and they tripped him----come on now. Make it stop!! That stuff is too much to handle, it's like against normal humans Ronon has a chance, but otherwise he's worthless---gives you the impression that the big gun and knives are hiding some kind of inadequacy. Keep in mind he was like the man's man in S2---so this is insulting.

vaberella
January 31st, 2007, 09:06 PM
heh Teyla doesn't 'Wraith super-powers' its just that she can sense them and connect with their minds

and yeah those bugs did look pretty stupid, but then again they were Michael's 'failures'

1. Actually she does, check out S1, first episode, Teyla literally jumps 3-4 feet in the air.
**If you're not a track runner with years of experience normal people can't do that; I don't even think with years of plyometric exercises can get you to jump that high. She most likely can run faster than Ronon, because she's also beaten John in Running, have her tap into that and she can be a marathon runner. That's not necessarily super human, but you never know.

2. She's the only one who has done a hand to hand or combat fighting with a wraith and gotten hits in, ie Suspicion.
**Ronon again was squated like a fly. So that's a few things to think about, I wouldn't think of doing that. And most of everyone else needs a gun to subdue a wraith.

3. She normally takes longer to go down by a wraith stunner, that's in The Gift.
**When the Wraith took over her mind, which means her recessive gene does prevent her from going down easily if she taps into it. The wraith normally need close range shot or two shots to go down. The humans one shot and their out for the rest of the time.

4. She wakes up from injuries faster.
**Carson makes suggestions to this and also she wakes up from the wraith stunner faster---examples are also seen in 'The Hive' and 'TLG' she only sweated a lot and healed faster while Ronon was suffering considerable pain when getting off the drugs, he was close to death; Teyla was helping him stand. This is something else that's not normal and rather super human---cause other humans died--Fords comrade for example.

5. Then there's the wraith mental abilities.
**She can walk in their minds, and take control if she practices enough, since she was able to give mental suggestions ie Submersion---how in the hell is this normal, let me know---that is super human, since basic humans can't do that; the Wraith control them.

6. Then we have the ship flying.
**wraith hive, that's not normal and in other words super human, her dna gives her that genetic advantage.

7. And last but not least, to bring up Carson, check out The Gift, he specifically says...'super powers'.

So yeah, she's definitely super human, since she has abilities far more than mere humans have. Until we see about 60% of the population with the same abilities, she's one step up the human ladder. :D

Mitchell82
January 31st, 2007, 09:33 PM
It was funny.

Imagine this:you're walking with your team in the abandoned underground complex where is definetly something/somebody what/who wants to kill you/eat you/have a sex with you(remember B5:Crusade and that hyperspace creatures and Excalibur ship:) ) and the first thing you do is to split up the team a every member has to go alone in the dark corridors.

I would say "f*** you guys I won't go alone" :)

Even I would and I'm trained in combat but against those things I would demand backup, or at least Ronon!

crazy_fan
January 31st, 2007, 10:07 PM
There seemed to be a minor plothole to me, why didn't Sheperd attempt to either beam up or failing that, at least blow up the DHD in order to prevent Michael from leaving the planet?

PG15
January 31st, 2007, 10:11 PM
Because he had to get off of it first?

Lightbane
January 31st, 2007, 10:22 PM
Yeah that would kinda make some sense... blow up the DHD and stay stranded on a planet full of bug creatures..

crazy_fan
January 31st, 2007, 10:23 PM
Because he had to get off of it first?

I thought that he didn't need the DHD anymore because he had the Dart to dial out.

Lightbane
January 31st, 2007, 10:25 PM
LOL yeah thats right! plothole, sorry a bit tired missed that point. that was a dumbass move blow it up or at least remove the other crystals or at least shot the damn thing so it can't be used

Quinn Mallory
January 31st, 2007, 10:26 PM
I had low expectation for this episode, but the show easily exceed that. Not sure how menacing these hybrid will be (since they are relatively dumb and has no tech) but it's good to see Michael stepping up and be a better bad guy.

PG15
January 31st, 2007, 10:26 PM
Oops! I stand corrected.

Oh well, moment's lack of judgement I guess. :p

Quinn Mallory
January 31st, 2007, 10:26 PM
LOL yeah thats right! plothole, sorry a bit tired missed that point. that was a dumbass move blow it up or at least remove the other crystals or at least shot the damn thing so it can't be used

If I was Sheppard, I would use the dart to pick up Teyla, McKay, AND Michael.

Lightbane
January 31st, 2007, 10:34 PM
yeah now hes escaped again... hes gonna be a big pain in the ass for season 4

Lauriel
January 31st, 2007, 10:42 PM
If I was Sheppard, I would use the dart to pick up Teyla, McKay, AND Michael.

If he does that, they're back to the same question/problem they had in Misbegotten. They don't want to kill him in cold blood, they can't really keep him locked up for life, and they can't let him go. It was probably best to skip that situation again.

NubianQueen
January 31st, 2007, 10:46 PM
But when they shoot Rodney first its comic relief and shooting Ronon he sshrugs it off and acts like it didn't happen, and they cant shoot Shep first repeatedly hes meant to be the hero type guy, and when a red shirt gets shot its the end of them, and Weir doesn't go on enough missions to get shot first all the time.

btw i think the top and cleavage shots are probably more sexist than her getting shot first LMAO (not that im complaining).

http://img227.imageshack.us/img227/2756/vengeanc05006ecde7biw3.jpg (http://imageshack.us)

Damn it Rachel's got sex appeal and those shots are not sexist compared to being the first member down and having habitual captures by the enemy.

NQ

flynn1959
February 1st, 2007, 01:49 AM
I didn't really enjoy this one as much as I could have. It was so dark it was almost unwatchable. Guess it's just my old eyes! I did like Rodney in full panic mode when the bug attacked him.

Lightbane
February 1st, 2007, 02:19 AM
It wasn't that dark, you must have a poor tevelvison screen or had too much light reflected on the screen

daniejam
February 1st, 2007, 04:21 AM
1 - Shep is on the radio with the marines, they say they are heading inland to the settlement, yet when the wraith dart comes through the gate they are still there. (bit of continuity please)

2 - the device that they use to track living things, why the hell is there no silence button on it, i mean they are all being stealthy and quiet and all you can hear is *beep* *beep* beep* *beep*. Doesnt it defeat the point on the machine if it wont stop bloodying making a noise.

End rant.

Dan

silence
February 1st, 2007, 04:30 AM
2 - the device that they use to track living things, why the hell is there no silence button on it, i mean they are all being stealthy and quiet and all you can hear is *beep* *beep* beep* *beep*. Doesnt it defeat the point on the machine if it wont stop bloodying making a noise.


heh ... but it wouldn't be cool if it just worked .... what life detector without *BEEP* ...*BEEP*...
or sound in space .. whats laser gun without "swoosh" or something like that.

have you played Splinter Cell? game is all about stealth and hiding in dark, yet you have big green flashing screen on your back .. ;)

prion
February 1st, 2007, 05:03 AM
1 - Shep is on the radio with the marines, they say they are heading inland to the settlement, yet when the wraith dart comes through the gate they are still there. (bit of continuity please)

2 - the device that they use to track living things, why the hell is there no silence button on it, i mean they are all being stealthy and quiet and all you can hear is *beep* *beep* beep* *beep*. Doesnt it defeat the point on the machine if it wont stop bloodying making a noise.

End rant.

Dan

Dan, it's the drama.. .;) Alas, if the LSD didn't beep (yes, a mute button makes a lot of sense) we viewers wouldn't know what he's doing. Logic is oft times sacrificed for entertainment. Not as if all the talking didn't alert the BEM to their location ;)

Not sure on your first quibble. Would have to rewatch.

prion
February 1st, 2007, 05:08 AM
1. Actually she does, check out S1, first episode, Teyla literally jumps 3-4 feet in the air.
**If you're not a track runner with years of experience normal people can't do that; I don't even think with years of plyometric exercises can get you to jump that high. She most likely can run faster than Ronon, because she's also beaten John in Running, have her tap into that and she can be a marathon runner. That's not necessarily super human, but you never know.

2. She's the only one who has done a hand to hand or combat fighting with a wraith and gotten hits in, ie Suspicion.
**Ronon again was squated like a fly. So that's a few things to think about, I wouldn't think of doing that. And most of everyone else needs a gun to subdue a wraith.

Well, it's the element of surprise. After all, Teyla took out Ronon in "Submersion". Had he been aware of her intent, it wouldn't have happened. They really all should use wraith handheld stunners. That way you don't run out of bullets, but then again, you have to be precise in your aim. P90s let you spray the broadside of a barn in seconds.


3. She normally takes longer to go down by a wraith stunner, that's in The Gift.
**When the Wraith took over her mind, which means her recessive gene does prevent her from going down easily if she taps into it. The wraith normally need close range shot or two shots to go down. The humans one shot and their out for the rest of the time.


Me thinks anybody possessed by aliens takes longer to go down from a stunner.



7. And last but not least, to bring up Carson, check out The Gift, he specifically says...'super powers'.

So yeah, she's definitely super human, since she has abilities far more than mere humans have. Until we see about 60% of the population with the same abilities, she's one step up the human ladder. :D

Well, yes. Anything other than the norm might be considered 'super', and since we're in another galaxy, why not? ;)

FoolishPleasure
February 1st, 2007, 05:46 AM
1. Actually she does, check out S1, first episode, Teyla literally jumps 3-4 feet in the air.
**If you're not a track runner with years of experience normal people can't do that; I don't even think with years of plyometric exercises can get you to jump that high. She most likely can run faster than Ronon, because she's also beaten John in Running, have her tap into that and she can be a marathon runner. That's not necessarily super human, but you never know.
Teyla wasn't in the first episode, she was introduced in Rising, Pt. 2. But anyway, I don't remember her jumping 4 ft. in the air, unless it was when all those explosions were going off, in which case, the concussion may have "thrown" her 4 ft. in the air. I haven't seen or heard anything about her running faster than John or Ronon either.


2. She's the only one who has done a hand to hand or combat fighting with a wraith and gotten hits in, ie Suspicion.
**Ronon again was squated like a fly. So that's a few things to think about, I wouldn't think of doing that. And most of everyone else needs a gun to subdue a wraith.
Actually, Teyla's people usually hid when the Wraith attacked. Ronon has been fighting Wraith alone and hand-to-hand for over 7 years. Teyla has only been with our team for 2-1/2 years and has only fought a Wraith with a weapon. Remember, in Suspicion, she was using her "stick" and lost that battle with Steve and would have died if Shep hadn't shown up.


She normally takes longer to go down by a wraith stunner, that's in The Gift.
She was possessed. That is a common theme in SciFi or horror - when one is possessed, they can't go down or die. Teyla isn't unique in that respect.


4. She wakes up from injuries faster.
**Carson makes suggestions to this and also she wakes up from the wraith stunner faster---examples are also seen in 'The Hive' and 'TLG' she only sweated a lot and healed faster while Ronon was suffering considerable pain when getting off the drugs, he was close to death; Teyla was helping him stand. This is something else that's not normal and rather super human---cause other humans died--Fords comrade for example.
Ford and his comrades had been taking the enzyme for a long period of time, which is why they died when they experienced withdrawal. No one ever said Ronon was close to death, btw. Teyla stood up a bit before him, but that was because the writers just wanted everyone to see her sweaty body and latest Victoria's Secret push up bra under that tank top. ;)


Then we have the ship flying.
A handful liked that, but a lot of fans found it unbelievable. I don't think we'll see it again.


So yeah, she's definitely super human, since she has abilities far more than mere humans have. Until we see about 60% of the population with the same abilities, she's one step up the human ladder. :D
Teyla is human, nothing more. Carson said her Wraith DNA was so miniscule that he didn't find it in physicals. He didn't find it until he specifically looked for it. To say Teyla is higher up the evolutionary chain is like saying a German Shepherd is stronger and more intelligent than a Pug, but that doesn't mean the Shepherd is genetically superior, it just means one animal has different physical abilities than the other. Overall, they are both just dogs. ;)

As for this episode, I can't figure out all the raving about how it is "Aliens" and that made it so cool. Its a rip off, nothing more. Our writers are still not coming up with original ideas of their own and have to resort to taking ideas from other works. Its lazy writing. Its getting OLD. :rolleyes:

Anjirika
February 1st, 2007, 06:06 AM
Just adding my opinion....

I thought that it was an okay episode- didn't have much suspence for me. Though I really liked how both Chuck and Elizabeth had a fair number of lines. I thought that the plot was okay-would have liked a mention of Carson though- I mean after Daniel died Sarah/Osiris asked about him and didn't believe Sam when she said that he was dead....and they introduced a thrid bad-guy....they can barely handle the two bad-guys that they have now and now they have a third to contend with...? Overall I did like Ronan and Rodney at the beginning and the whole Elizabeth/John interaction about sending back up (sparky-ness is great) so I give this episode a 7/10. Not bad, but not great either- just an average episode.

Jeyla4ever
February 1st, 2007, 06:09 AM
I liked this episode. I didn't get the same feeling as in the Ark...Loved the Ark!, but the plot, the visual and the characters were great...

Michael was creepy....He has gone to such extremes and now he's a one man brainiac army.....Rodney better watch out! He's not the only brilliant scientist out there....

I liked the dialogue between John and Ronon...actually I do have mixed feeling about it...but mainly....Ronon actually spoke more than one sentence at a time and that was good for him....also, he did shut up John....that part I have a bit of mixed feelings about...but the scene was good and the dialogue was great....although, I do see John's point of view because if Michael has other labs out there, it is their responsibility to destroy those as well...otherwise, they did nothing here....and they didn't....the problem is still out there...

I loved that first scene between Rodney and Ronon...it's great to see different interactions between the characters...Loved it!

The team was fantastic....Teyla in peril calling for Ronon and then John was great....Trying to reason with Michae was just not working....I wonder why she didn't try to get into his mind and see where the other labs were or try to manipulate his actions like she did in Submerssion!

Hmmm...

Also, was it me or did the idea of how the Wraith reproduce came up again several times....Rodney commented it when John made his joke about it...and then Teyla wondered if Michael left a family behind....I wonder if we will get to know more about the Wraith in this sense and actually learn that they do have families or something.....

Just a thought......overall, I thought it was a great episode...

Jeyla4ever
February 1st, 2007, 06:17 AM
Foolish Pleasure...

Teyla wasn't in the first episode, she was introduced in Rising, Pt. 2. But anyway, I don't remember her jumping 4 ft. in the air, unless it was when all those explosions were going off, in which case, the concussion may have "thrown" her 4 ft. in the air. I haven't seen or heard anything about her running faster than John or Ronon either.

She does do that in Rising...when John and Teyla are coming out of the cave and are in the woods, you see Teyla stop and sense the Wraith....she calls, Wraith and starts to run and leaves Sheppard way behind....then you see her jumping over a log I believe and she's extremely high! I"m not sure if John actually saw her, and I tried to find a cap but Stargatecaps didn't get that scene....but she actually does jump and run faster than John...I don't know if she's faster than Ronon...can't remember......

But, I do also remember Carson calling her on her super powers...and I think it's safe to say that we haven't seen all of Teyla's capabilities....I think it will be interesting to see if the others like her have certain physical attributes as well or if it's just Teyla and her training.....

Southern Red
February 1st, 2007, 07:03 AM
I thought this was a very enjoyable episode, but Aliens was always a favorite of mine. Love anything with Marines. ;) The first scene with Rodney/Ronon was a treat. I hope they continue to explore their friendship. Odd couples are always fun. It probably would have been suspenseful if it wasn't like a million other scary movies, but I liked the way it was done. The bugs got less scary as it went along though as we saw more of them. Our guys definitely needed to be injured a bit more. I mean, how could that big bug guy jump on Sheppard like that and not even muss his hair? Oh wait...

Elizabeth was used nicely here also. She was confident and in control and showed just who was in charge when she insisted on sending in the Marines. Love how John didn't try to argue. A nice character moment between them showing how well they know each other. As was the final scene when we see them once again on the same page and reading each others minds. I was reminded of the scene in Misbegotten when John told Woolsey that he supported Elizabeth's decision. John wouldn't admit to Ronon or Michael that the experiments were wrong, but it seemed in this last scene that he and Elizabeth knew that their bad decisions were about to bite them. Now it will be interesting to see how they work together to get out of this one.

Connor Trinneer was excellent as usual. Michael is developing nicely as a supervillian. Hope to see him again in S4.

Once again we see a good connection between Elizabeth and Teyla. It was interesting how Teyla used the term "our science". She is definitely feeling part of the exhibition. Now if they would just stop with the damsel in distress who is in serious danger of developing a fatal chest cold nonsense. I guess they haven't changed their target audience even though, by now, I would think they would know that hormonally charged adolescent boys of all ages ;) don't make up the bulk of their audience.

JF also did his usual excellent job of showing all John's emotions on his face. The scene with Michael in particular showed his fear and bravado at the same time. Loved how he failed to be impressed with the "bug people" but looked like he was about to wet his pants. lol And he seems to have developed quite a bit of precision accuracy in the scoop and fly with the dart. ;)

This episode was a nice bit of foreshadowing of S4.

Poltergeist
February 1st, 2007, 07:24 AM
Teyla has only been with our team for 2-1/2 years and has only fought a Wraith with a weapon.

Teyla took out a wraith in Misbegotten when the team went back for Carson and the marines.

SGFerrit
February 1st, 2007, 07:46 AM
I really enjoyed this episode:) 8/10:)

I'm so psyched up for the finale!

Luz
February 1st, 2007, 07:56 AM
But anyway, I don't remember her jumping 4 ft. in the air, unless it was when all those explosions were going off, in which case, the concussion may have "thrown" her 4 ft. in the air.

She didn't, it's on the scene where Sheppard and her are running through the woods after the wraith arrive, there is this small mound, Teyla runs over it. It's understandable that someone would get confused since the scene is very dark, but I just watched it, and no, she doesn't fly or jump, or whatever, she just runs over it.
As for the running, they were all running fast, if running fast is a super power then all the athosians have it. *lol*

Landers
February 1st, 2007, 08:46 AM
The team was fantastic....Teyla in peril calling for Ronon and then John was great....

That's why Teyla has become such a joke. She is a warrior so she should not be crying out or needing help all the time. Bug on the boobs? Right. Too bad she didn't meet up with the exploring tumor instead of Carson.

This show gets a thumbs down because its just the Alien movies redux.

vaberella
February 1st, 2007, 09:20 AM
There seemed to be a minor plothole to me, why didn't Sheperd attempt to either beam up or failing that, at least blow up the DHD in order to prevent Michael from leaving the planet?

I don't think John knows how to fire the weaponry through the cruiser. I don't remember all of The Hive, go figure, but I didn't remember him using any of the weapons to shoot out the wraith, he just knew how to use the controls for the beaming.

Not to mention, we have to remember distance, maybe we can't travel by puddlejumper there, it's kosher to take the gate. I don't know if under impending death of me and my own I'd remember the DHD--

When you have to save your self and your team, 2 of which were underground and you're hunted by huge ass bugs; which you totally underestimated their number. First thing I would think is save my team and come back to planet through the gate to see what else I can do with reinforcements.

Avenger
February 1st, 2007, 09:36 AM
1 - Shep is on the radio with the marines, they say they are heading inland to the settlement, yet when the wraith dart comes through the gate they are still there. (bit of continuity please)

Dan

They just stepped through the gate.

Admiral Mappalazarou
February 1st, 2007, 10:55 AM
hi i liked the ep btw. Just wondering though, was it the same actor playing Michael? because he seemed different somehow....

expendable_crewman
February 1st, 2007, 11:12 AM
IMO, the ep should have ended at minute marker 4:29 or thereabouts. Somewhere in the Stargate mission directives it should say if you run into a pod or cocoon bigger than the biggest person on your team, you have to go back to base and get bigger people. Or maybe some flame throwers and bug spray, lol.

I'm glad the ep ran longer than five minutes.

Nice recipe for an ep, btw. Take some standard danger, mix in a creep factor, a little phobia, stir in claustrophobic tunnels, maybe some water dripping in the background, lol, and a couple of shots of uncovered ventilator shafts. Yowza.

I second Sheppard: "I hate bugs." I especially hate them big. And big to me is the size of a US nickel.

Walking on two legs and tall as Ronon?

I got it that the team was shaken. Btw, has Sheppard ever before jumped like he did when the expendables unexpectedly called him on the radio?

Wow, I liked it.

Not to sound morbid or anything, but I'm liking the dark and gloomy ones as much I like the water and city eps. And I got three dark and gloomy eps in a row. Count me a happy fan. With this one, Sheppard was so obviously freaked and that, for me, it upped the ep's enjoyment factor.

Whatever was going on with Sheppard and Ronon, as much as I like seeing the team in sync, I'd love to see fleshed out more. Was it a fluke? Was everyone wound up so tight, they just burst at certain times?

Michael is shaping up to be an amazing bad guy. His appearance was so understated that I was straining to figure him out. Too much human + too much Wraith = psycho? I'm loving it.

Does this mean we'll get bigger bugs and a maniac Wraith hybrid running amok in season 4?

"Your idea is better." LOL.

Been following the "who gets captured the most" game. Here's the list for season 3 behind spoiler tags for those who, um, don't care. Expendables not mentioned, although they get a hearty shout-out for being brave enough to go on missions without a contract.

Warning: Spoilers for all eps.

No Man's Land: McKay, Ronon, and Sheppard
Misbegotten: Carson
Irresistible: Does getting mind-blown count? Free will disconnect, so let's say everyone but Shep
Sateda: Teyla, Ronon, Sheppard (More Ronon than the other two). Honorable mention to McKay for taking fire.
Progeny: Shep, Ronon, Teyla, McKay, Weir. Honorable mention to Sheppard for self-sacrifice, even if it was in his head.
The Real World: Weir, in her mind.
Common Ground: Sheppard
McKay and Mrs Miller: Nada
Phantoms: Honorable mention to Ronon, McKay, and Teyla for taking fire.
Return 1: Woosley (he's not really an expendable) and O'Neill
Return 2: Woosley, O'Neill, Shep, McKay, Ronon, Teyla, Carson, and Weir
Echoes: Honorable mention to Sheppard, McKay, Teyla and Weir for going down in the line of duty.
Irresponsible: Sheppard, Teyla, Ronon, McKay, Carson,
Tao of Rodney: Honorable mention to McKay for activating alien technology without checking the warning label.
The Game: Nada
The Ark: Teyla
Sunday: Carson, rest in peace. Honorable mention to Teyla for taking fire.
Submersion: Sheppard, briefly. Teyla, in her mind.
Vengeance: Teyla.

The "Captured the Most" Award goes to Teyla, with eight captures.
Ronon and Sheppard take second place with six captures.
McKay takes third place with five captures.

Carson and Weir get the "aw shucks" mention with four captures.

Recurring theme? The "Getting Captured is a Team Affair" plaque was awarded seven times in season three for people getting captured when one or more others.

The "Wounded in the Line of Duty" award is shared by McKay and Teyla.

The "Ultimate Sacrifice" ribbon, with deep regret and sorrow, was posthumously awarded to Carson Beckett.

My vote on the "Teyla gets it more than others" discussion? This show likes to capture, shoot, chase, scare, brainwash, and explode its main cast. Teyla was captured by herself twice, which is only one more than Sheppard, Carson, and Weir. The others got theirs in the front half. Her turn was in the back half.

Signed,
A Confirmed Atlantis Cast Whumper

markaudette
February 1st, 2007, 12:28 PM
Vengeance, to me, seemed that someone just wanted to do a horror-themed episode. My beef, with all horro movies, is that no one thought to look for a light switch. What's more, I looked as hard as I could and never even found a light switch on any of the set walls. Someone really, REALLY didn't want this horror-themed episode to have its lights on! LOL

It is always so very, very nice to see Connor Trinnear. But for the love of Pete, can we give him an acting role he can really sink his teeth into??? Can we please give Micheal a whole dialog-heavy episode for once??? He had the least he's ever had to say in this episode. And that's a shame. Connor is a gifted actor.

And now we have the Wraith equivelent of the Go'ould Kull warriors in the form of Micheal's Wraith tanks.

:cool:

vaberella
February 1st, 2007, 01:00 PM
http://img227.imageshack.us/img227/2756/vengeanc05006ecde7biw3.jpg (http://imageshack.us)

Damn it Rachel's got sex appeal and those shots are not sexist compared to being the first member down and having habitual captures by the enemy.

NQ

Dude/tte give me the shot of the bug on Teyla's chest, now that was the money shot!! :D :D


Well, it's the element of surprise. After all, Teyla took out Ronon in "Submersion". Had he been aware of her intent, it wouldn't have happened. They really all should use wraith handheld stunners. That way you don't run out of bullets, but then again, you have to be precise in your aim. P90s let you spray the broadside of a barn in seconds.
I would agree but I find that doubtful, I say this because of Echoes (I think) when they were sparring, Teyla was able to take him down with her abilities (athosian fighting skill, that is). So I do think she would have a chance against him, without the element of surprise.




Me thinks anybody possessed by aliens takes longer to go down from a stunner.
Check out 'The Long Goodbye' alien posessing John and Weir and a stunner was able to take John down in one zap. So I think this is paticular to her gene abilities. Again you could argue well Thalen's was whining down, but by how much we don't know. But let's say by a lot, you can't argue what happened to Weir through Phoebus because at the end of the ep John also said that Phoebus was hanging in there for quite a while. So we can say that no, not anyone posessed by alien entity, being or what not, aren't easy pray for a stunner.




Well, yes. Anything other than the norm might be considered 'super', and since we're in another galaxy, why not? ;)

Too true, too true!:teyla:




Teyla wasn't in the first episode, she was introduced in Rising, Pt. 2. But anyway, I don't remember her jumping 4 ft. in the air, unless it was when all those explosions were going off, in which case, the concussion may have "thrown" her 4 ft. in the air. I haven't seen or heard anything about her running faster than John or Ronon either.
:rolleyes: I saw it as one big block, not separate eps, since I wasn't here for the first season. I came in the second second was ending, check out the episode again Rising 1x02 if I need to be exact.. While her and John are running through he woods before she gets taken by the beam, she jumps extremely high over a log. Looked like wires were used, but the effect was the same, she has some questionable abilities. When I first saw it, I had to look twice to make sure. She was far from thrown.



Actually, Teyla's people usually hid when the Wraith attacked. Ronon has been fighting Wraith alone and hand-to-hand for over 7 years. Teyla has only been with our team for 2-1/2 years and has only fought a Wraith with a weapon. Remember, in Suspicion, she was using her "stick" and lost that battle with Steve and would have died if Shep hadn't shown up.
There's no facts to say she would have died, but she was taken down admittedly in Suspicion, and yes I know she used a stick, but she didn't use a gun---which was a more effienct way of killing a wraith. That was my point and she got blows in, which I have never seen John do with the Wraith, only Ronon was able to kill them with his knives or plasma gun. And yes Teyla has been with the team for 2.5 years, her people usually hid, but we haven't gotten enough information on Teyla's past to know why she and only a limited amount of people it seems within her people are able to have the fighting style they do.

And I don't compare Ronon/Teyla in that sense, only because Ronon was hunted by foot by the wraith he was a worthy adversary. Teyla's people were found to be sheep, but since Teyla made mention of her father stating that there were Runners, I get the feeling that her father has come across them and possibly maybe one or two were Athosians at some point. So that being said, we dont' know who in a village is a runner. Ronon also said that they just didnt' feed on him, which could ahve been done with anyone. And with Teyla's people what we have seen so far is people regarded again as just plain old sheep. So they beam them, and from what we saw in Rising 1 or 2, I don't remember seeing foot soldiers. I think they send down foot soldiers or the dummy soldiers when they have a possibly worthy adversary in the people, ie. Satedans.



She was possessed. That is a common theme in SciFi or horror - when one is possessed, they can't go down or die. Teyla isn't unique in that respect.
Take a look at John or Weir in TLG...then show that to me. At the moment when people are possessed, they can be taken down if they do not have the wraith gene, which slows it down.~sigh~ Sure I can see many people saying that it was close to his end, and I'm like he still had several moments and there was nothing to say or even a glimpse to say the entity within John was weakening. So no it's not a common theme in that respect.



Ford and his comrades had been taking the enzyme for a long period of time, which is why they died when they experienced withdrawal. No one ever said Ronon was close to death, btw. Teyla stood up a bit before him, but that was because the writers just wanted everyone to see her sweaty body and latest Victoria's Secret push up bra under that tank top. ;)
Dude was knocked down and couldn't walk. And her withdrawal did not seem that different. As for Ford, he possibly could have died, but Ronon could have died as well---why?! Because both he and Teyla were taking large doses of the stuff over a period of time. So the withdrawal was vicious and Ronon was in worse shape than Teyla.

You really seem to have excessive knowledge on Teyla's choice of underwear and what she wears... It could make a person wonder...:rolleyes: Not only that, you may need to check the ep out again; Teyla was wearing her jacket while in the hive sweating for her life. So I don't think the writers had that in mind.



A handful liked that, but a lot of fans found it unbelievable. I don't think we'll see it again.
A lot of fans meaning you and your friends, correct? Because within the episode they clearly give you the impression that Teyla was being taught how to fly the ship for a significant amount of time. McKay/John, I believe makes that clear in their statement, after Teyla explains her training; where she's been learning over a period of time, so that makes it more believable. I think you can gather that in the transcript, if you can't get to the ep.



Teyla is human, nothing more. Carson said her Wraith DNA was so miniscule that he didn't find it in physicals. He didn't find it until he specifically looked for it. To say Teyla is higher up the evolutionary chain is like saying a German Shepherd is stronger and more intelligent than a Pug, but that doesn't mean the Shepherd is genetically superior, it just means one animal has different physical abilities than the other. Overall, they are both just dogs. ;)

Hmmm...yeah he did also mention that he couldn't account for her 'super-powers' in the the same ep. Or did you decide to overlook that...which would also say that her responses and reactions and abilities if need be are not of the norm. Again jumping several feet in the air and communicating mentaly is beyond us mere humans, unless you're telling me you have telekinetic abilities, then I'd be forced to agree with your statement. But overall she's far more able than us which does push her up the food chain--much like Ford.


As for this episode, I can't figure out all the raving about how it is "Aliens" and that made it so cool. Its a rip off, nothing more. Our writers are still not coming up with original ideas of their own and have to resort to taking ideas from other works. Its lazy writing. Its getting OLD. :rolleyes:
Who said that it made the episode cool, but those creatures did look like cheap imitations of Aliens. I already said the rubbery hand was out in our faces, but despite all that I liked it. Lazy writing is subjective, I found Echoes to be one of the most boring eps (it was good, just boring) next to The Real World (which I saw really no purpose to coming into being, border line nauseating---Weir was so much better utilized in Common Ground); while other's found it to be the pillar of excellence!


Teyla took out a wraith in Misbegotten when the team went back for Carson and the marines.
I think my banner and avatar says it all!! :D :D Now this is an ep I have to watch over, I just remember her taking out (I was about to say soldier)...hold up, that WAS a wraith, but wasn't he in human form?! Oh but they were not taking the dosage any more, that's right; so their abilities would have made them stronger, than the average human. Hah!!

vaberella
February 1st, 2007, 01:12 PM
Been following the "who gets captured the most" game. Here's the list for season 3 behind spoiler tags for those who, um, don't care. Expendables not mentioned, although they get a hearty shout-out for being brave enough to go on missions without a contract.

Warning: Spoilers for all eps.

No Man's Land: McKay, Ronon, and Sheppard
Misbegotten: Carson
Irresistible: Does getting mind-blown count? Free will disconnect, so let's say everyone but Shep
Sateda: Teyla, Ronon, Sheppard (More Ronon than the other two). Honorable mention to McKay for taking fire.
Progeny: Shep, Ronon, Teyla, McKay, Weir. Honorable mention to Sheppard for self-sacrifice, even if it was in his head.
The Real World: Weir, in her mind.
Common Ground: Sheppard
McKay and Mrs Miller: Nada
Phantoms: Honorable mention to Ronon, McKay, and Teyla for taking fire.
Return 1: Woosley (he's not really an expendable) and O'Neill
Return 2: Woosley, O'Neill, Shep, McKay, Ronon, Teyla, Carson, and Weir
Echoes: Honorable mention to Sheppard, McKay, Teyla and Weir for going down in the line of duty.
Irresponsible: Sheppard, Teyla, Ronon, McKay, Carson,
Tao of Rodney: Honorable mention to McKay for activating alien technology without checking the warning label.
The Game: Nada
The Ark: Teyla
Sunday: Carson, rest in peace. Honorable mention to Teyla for taking fire.
Submersion: Sheppard, briefly. Teyla, in her mind.
Vengeance: Teyla.

The "Captured the Most" Award goes to Teyla, with eight captures.
Ronon and Sheppard take second place with six captures.
McKay takes third place with five captures.

Carson and Weir get the "aw shucks" mention with four captures.

Recurring theme? The "Getting Captured is a Team Affair" plaque was awarded seven times in season three for people getting captured when one or more others.

The "Wounded in the Line of Duty" award is shared by McKay and Teyla.

The "Ultimate Sacrifice" ribbon, with deep regret and sorrow, was posthumously awarded to Carson Beckett.

My vote on the "Teyla gets it more than others" discussion? This show likes to capture, shoot, chase, scare, brainwash, and explode its main cast. Teyla was captured by herself twice, which is only one more than Sheppard, Carson, and Weir. The others got theirs in the front half. Her turn was in the back half.

Signed,
A Confirmed Atlantis Cast Whumper

Take away the team captures and do a recount. I don't count team captures, cause like...that's...like...supposed to happen! Hence we have storyline and growth---plot device some may say!:rolleyes:

Ruined_puzzle
February 1st, 2007, 01:45 PM
That's why Teyla has become such a joke. She is a warrior so she should not be crying out or needing help all the time. Bug on the boobs? Right. Too bad she didn't meet up with the exploring tumor instead of Carson.

This show gets a thumbs down because its just the Alien movies redux.

LOL. The boob shot was just so bad.
Misses Carson *cries*

the old briar pipe
February 1st, 2007, 02:10 PM
Just finished watching the ep, will go through all 170 replies in a moment, but first!

Teyla and Rodney alone in a room for more than 2 seconds!!! Color me surprised, bemused, and utterly satisfied. Yes, they didn't talk about anything other than the plot du jour, but they did discuss morality and they did actually speak and frankly I'm just stunned it happened at all. *raises small flag of joy*

So the fact that I hated Alien the Movie is pretty much irrelevant at this point.

Jonzey
February 1st, 2007, 04:13 PM
Well I liked this episode. I thought it was really creepy and atmospheric, and the bug creatures make a much scarier enemy than the Wraith or Asurans. And FINALLY an alien race who look alien!! Apart from those invisible guys in SG-1 (the Reetu or something, right?) all Stargate alien races are very human in shape. These guys kinda were though as well, which led to my one complaint about them. Their legs. When they were just showing shots of the mouth and upper body they looked great, but then you see they're just stupid looking top-heavy creatures with a pair of human legs sticking out underneath. Immediately reminded me of the mermaid from Red Dwarf. If you've seen that episode you'll know exactly what I mean.

Anyway on the whole I've found the back hald of Atlanis season 3 to be very lackluster. It's just seemed like they've been treading water, going through the motions for each episode. They write it, film it, edit it and air it and it ends up as filler. I felt that way about Submergence and the Ark, and I can barely remember the other ones (except a little about that one with the Western kinda feel to it. And Sunday of course, but even that was a little disappointing), so this episode really stands out to me from the rest.

I guess what this proves if anything is that the crew are having a hard time working on the two shows at once. I enjoyed SG-1 season 9 and Atlantis season 2 because the great episodes were spread out throughout the season, but this time it feels like Sg-1 got the filler for the first ten (bar a few great episodes) and Atlantis is getting the filler for the second half, while SG-1's second half has been amazing so far.

Of course, I guess I might be giving this episode far more credit than it deserves just because everything wasn't wrapped up in a neat little package by the end of it. There was no big red reset button to remedy the whole situation like they've done so often in Atlantis.

FoolishPleasure
February 1st, 2007, 08:41 PM
:rolleyes: I saw it as one big block, not separate eps, since I wasn't here for the first season. I came in the second second was ending, check out the episode again Rising 1x02 if I need to be exact.. While her and John are running through he woods before she gets taken by the beam, she jumps extremely high over a log. Looked like wires were used, but the effect was the same, she has some questionable abilities. When I first saw it, I had to look twice to make sure. She was far from thrown.
Luz already answered this question. There was no 4 ft high jump.




And I don't compare Ronon/Teyla in that sense, only because Ronon was hunted by foot by the wraith he was a worthy adversary. Teyla's people were found to be sheep, but since Teyla made mention of her father stating that there were Runners, I get the feeling that her father has come across them and possibly maybe one or two were Athosians at some point. So that being said, we dont' know who in a village is a runner.
So, what are you arguing about then? You say, "I get the feeling. . ." so I guess you are just guessing.


You really seem to have excessive knowledge on Teyla's choice of underwear and what she wears... It could make a person wonder...:rolleyes: Not only that, you may need to check the ep out again; Teyla was wearing her jacket while in the hive sweating for her life. So I don't think the writers had that in mind.
The bug/boob scene. Um, Teyla had a wide open jacket, with exposed "upper assets" and. . yes, the writers knew exactly what they were doing.


A lot of fans meaning you and your friends, correct?
Look, you are just getting nasty. . .again, so I'm going to leave and let you chew out someone else who disagrees with you.


I think my banner and avatar says it all!! :D :D
I've ignored that since you returned, but its time to report it too the mods now.

Mitchell82
February 1st, 2007, 09:18 PM
Would of been a good episode, if not for the horrible effects...

What horrible effects? The creatures were great, as was everything else.

jenks
February 1st, 2007, 11:52 PM
What horrible effects? The creatures were great, as was everything else.

The creatures were almost laughable, I was cringing every time I saw them they were so tacky... the bit about 14:20 in is the worst, I don't know how they dare show it...

Celcool
February 2nd, 2007, 12:38 AM
The bug/boob scene. Um, Teyla had a wide open jacket, with exposed "upper assets" and. . yes, the writers knew exactly what they were doing.

Exactly. I thought that was so cheap. I was almost sick. I don't get it why they had to do that. It's pretty obvious what Teyla's purpose on Atlantis is according to TPTB. :S

Aussie_Fan
February 2nd, 2007, 02:58 AM
Exactly. I thought that was so cheap. I was almost sick. I don't get it why they had to do that. It's pretty obvious what Teyla's purpose on Atlantis is according to TPTB. :S

It's sad that TPTB think they have to do things like that in order to make people interested in the show.


Hmm.. I don't think I've made my mind up about this ep. It was alright but I won't be in any rush to watch it again. I recon it would have been cool if they left the actor who played Michaels name out of the opening credits (I don't actually remember the guys name :P) and then had him first appear when Teyla was in the room by herself. Would have added to this creapy atmosphere everyone's talking about.

I will admit that there where a few times when I jumped clear off the chair. And the McKay vs Ronnan thing at the beginning was great! I'm still waiting for Teyla to teach Weir self deffence :weiranime17:

All in all not a bad episode.

Waiting ever so patiently for First Strike!

Elinor
February 2nd, 2007, 04:21 AM
Whatever was going on with Sheppard and Ronon, as much as I like seeing the team in sync, I'd love to see fleshed out more. Was it a fluke? Was everyone wound up so tight, they just burst at certain times?

Oh me as well! I've really been enjoying the Shep and Ronon interaction a lot just recently. Ronon is turning out to be a very enjoyable character to watch....especially when he's teamed up with Shep.


Michael is shaping up to be an amazing bad guy. His appearance was so understated that I was straining to figure him out. Too much human + too much Wraith = psycho? I'm loving it.

Does this mean we'll get bigger bugs and a maniac Wraith hybrid running amok in season 4?


I agree...Michael is a fab villain. Up there with Kolya. They both need to be back in s4. I don't care if Kolya is dead...clone/resurrect/robotize him or something.....please!!!

Yay to bigger bugs and maniac Wraith hybrid! I want those to..especially the running amok bit!! Freaked out Sheppy is fun to watch!!

Yep...I thought this was a great episode. Loved the dark feel to it...and rather scary and tense at times!

:)

Athosian Death facilitator
February 2nd, 2007, 04:30 AM
[QUOTE=Starxgate;6263246]I can't believe next week is the Atlantis finale & SG-1 will be half way done next week. Life will suck when both Stargate shows finish their seasons & next year will suck even more with only 1 Stargate show :([/QUOTe

be positive now atlantis is really good so wait for the new spinoff it should be great aswell.:tealc: :daniel: :jack: :sam: :jonas: :sheppard: :weir: :mckay: :ford: :ronan: :teyla:

vaberella
February 2nd, 2007, 05:02 AM
Luz already answered this question. There was no 4 ft high jump.
When I read what Luz has to say, then I'll post on what Luz has to say, but I didn't see what s/he has to say. And who is s/he anyway? I respond to many people. And yes Teyla does, if anything you could just watch it again, she's running in front of John and jumps several feet in the air, I don't jump like that, especially while running. So if you need to watch it again, to see what I'm talking about then go ahead, but she does jump.



So, what are you arguing about then? You say, "I get the feeling. . ." so I guess you are just guessing.
I'm speaking directly of a one on one fight between Teyla and the wraith. So yes, as I said Ronon has been in fights he's also been squatted. Teyla has done very well to take on a wraith---without using a gun, which Ronon does use on them, besides a good knife in the gut. And yes that makes her super human in my book; but then I've heard a strong argument that Ronon is far more than a mere human, and I could believe it.



The bug/boob scene. Um, Teyla had a wide open jacket, with exposed "upper assets" and. . yes, the writers knew exactly what they were doing.
I guess you didn't read what I said, or missed it. I'm speaking directly of the hive, and you were quoting me when I was speaking of the hive. There was no bug in The Hive. You seem to be speaking about Vengeance.



Look, you are just getting nasty. . .again, so I'm going to leave and let you chew out someone else who disagrees with you.
You made a statement, and I called you on it; but I'm getting nasty? Nothing I said was insulting in anyway shape or form. I said, and I'll say it again, 'what you mean by most people is you and your friends' who watch the show, right? Most people who make the comments base their generalized statements on that. I didn't find that to be the case because within the episode McKay/John made mention to a length of time of her training, which seemed a while and even said she was still no where near being capable, and she'd need more training.

Then again I haven't taken a census of all the people who watched the episode to know whether or not they found it believable. If you have let me know, then I'll take back what I said.


I've ignored that since you returned, but its time to report it too the mods now.

Have you now? When have I returned? I come when leisure permits, this is not my home away from home. As for reporting me, 'as you wish'. :D

starfox
February 2nd, 2007, 05:20 AM
McKay and Teyla were in a room together! And they talked! There was dialogue and serious conversation and a mention of morality!
I have wanted this for so long. Thank you, PTB. More, please.

Okay, now on to actually talking about the episode as a whole.

This episode was bad. It was soooo bad, and you know it was bad. It was bad in that B-movie sort of way, where you know it sucks, but you keep watching because it's so hilarious. Everytime they got attacked, I was laughing my rear end off.

The iratus bug that was attacking Teyla looked really good, presumably because there's a much higher CGI budget than there was the first season. But what we saw of the larger bug creatures just looked silly, because it's more difficult to make something of that size look frightening and realistic. Hence the shadowy shots and never focusing on them for too long, and hence me laughing at the sheer cheesiness of it all.

The big Sheppard Stupidity Moment for me was when Sheppard didn't shoot Michael straight off. I know that Michael's survival was necessary for plot purposes, but I wish they could have written it in a way that didn't make Shep look like a complete moron. Anyone with half a brain would know that he wasn't going to get the control crystal from Mikey alive; it would have been infinitely easier to take it off his dead body. Sheppard just didn't want to face up to a mistake he could fix, which was a major plot point that got overshadowed in this moment.

And there were a couple of major plot points in this ep. Even with all of the horror-movie cheesiness of this episode, a couple of important points for the series were made.

1)Facing up to your mistakes.

The conversation between Ronon and Sheppard in the tunnels, and the moments with Elizabeth and the end made it clear. The Atlantis team f***ed up. Big time. And they're going to have to deal with the consequences of their actions, whether they want to or not. That's one of the things I love about this show, and one of the reasons I prefer it to SG-1 these days. The consequences are felt personally. When Beckett was around, we knew how much he regretted the Michael experiment. In this episode, Teyla was captured by Michael and nearly used for his nefarious purposes, which would not have been nearly as violating as what they did to him, but hey, death works as a consequence, too. Elizabeth sees a whole civilization lost because of her bad decisions. And Sheppard is forced to realize that they have failed and this time he can't fix it. Which brings me to my other point

2) American military mindset vs. Pegasus mindset (a.k.a common sense)

Sheppard doesn't know how to cut his losses in this situation, and I think that's a result of his looking at the situation as a typical Earth military conflict, where you capture the enemy and question them and rely on intel to make decisions. You can't fight like that in Pegasus. You know the enemy's agenda: to destroy you. All you can hope to do is destroy them first. That's what Ronon's trying to hammer home, and I think a little bit of it may have gotten into Shep's thick skull. The expedition has been expecting the Pegasus Galaxy to adapt to them in some ways; here we get it hammered home that they're going to have to adapt to the Pegasus Galaxy.

Sometimes you need to question the enemy. And sometimes you need to put a bullet in his/her/its brain. The Atlantis team needs to get better at figuring out which instances are which, and Ronon's speech indicated that.

Yes, I think we can safely say that Ronon taking Sheppard down a peg was my favorite part of this episode. It was a fantastic moment of Ronon asserting himself, not because he's stubborn but because he's right, and Jason played it very well.
and it also reminds us all that poor Shep really only has control of his off-world team in the most nominal sense. Which I actually like about this show. It just makes it that much better when he is in control.


On an unrelated note, this episode was also proof that there is no cohesive season arc for this show at all, but it fits into a larger show-wide arc, so it's forgivable. This time.

Southern Red
February 2nd, 2007, 07:56 AM
She didn't, it's on the scene where Sheppard and her are running through the woods after the wraith arrive, there is this small mound, Teyla runs over it. It's understandable that someone would get confused since the scene is very dark, but I just watched it, and no, she doesn't fly or jump, or whatever, she just runs over it.
As for the running, they were all running fast, if running fast is a super power then all the athosians have it. *lol*

This is the quote from Luz saying that she watched the Teyla jumping scene in question and giving her opinion. I also just rewatched it in slow motion backwards and forwards. She jumps over what I believe to be a log, but in no way can I tell that the height of her jump is anything any reasonably athletic young person running for her life couldn't do.

Now can we please stop nitpicking every opinion that might disagree with yours and get back to discussing Vengeance?

Mitchell82
February 2nd, 2007, 09:53 AM
The creatures were almost laughable, I was cringing every time I saw them they were so tacky... the bit about 14:20 in is the worst, I don't know how they dare show it...

I disagree. I think they looked fine.

Mitchell82
February 2nd, 2007, 09:55 AM
Exactly. I thought that was so cheap. I was almost sick. I don't get it why they had to do that. It's pretty obvious what Teyla's purpose on Atlantis is according to TPTB. :S

Well I am a guy but I'll try to make this sound right. I agree that it might not have been necessary but I don't see it as over the top.

LoveConquers
February 2nd, 2007, 10:09 AM
Well I am a guy but I'll try to make this sound right. I agree that it might not have been necessary but I don't see it as over the top.

I'm a girl, and I agree.

And really, there is a practical side to it. To put it simply, the bug needs skin. What's the threat of the bug biting into a big old chunk of tac vest? That thing is so big on Teyla, imagine her lying down in it. Her head would be straining to stick out of the thing like a floundering turtle on its back.

(We do see her lying in the thing in Phantoms and again, the turtle image comes to mind).

The image is not nearly as threatening as it is when we see her exposed neck.

LoveConquers
February 2nd, 2007, 10:12 AM
McKay and Teyla were in a room together! And they talked! There was dialogue and serious conversation and a mention of morality!
I have wanted this for so long. Thank you, PTB. More, please.



I agree!!! About time!!! With both the Rodney/Teyla scenes and with their actually being moral implications. That was wonderful!

Chailyn
February 2nd, 2007, 10:16 AM
It was okay, I guess. More hallway walking. I've been trying to think of all the hallway walking scenes we've had and...wow. Talk about cutting costs.

And Michael is into dog breeding now? Because that's essentially what it was. Michael is breeding pitbulls. He's running a puppy mill...for bugs. I don't understand his logic behind it. He wants guard dogs...yeah. He's lonely. The Wraith seem very interconnected to each other. Why didn't he create an intelligent, stronger species with all the advantages of the Wraith, yet possessing human consciousness? A Super!Wraith. Now, that would have been a force to be reckoned with. He could have formed his own hive. Then again, those Super!Wraith could overthrow him...so maybe the pitbugs are good. A Wraith's best friend. As it was, I agree with whoever said these things looked like Teenage Mutant Ninja Turtles. And if it only takes one shot in the belly to kill them, how are they really any stonger than the Wraith? It reminded me a little of Duck Hunt. :)

I feel for Michael, for whatever reason. I really think they missed an excellent opportunity with him to go into the workings of Wraith society. Teyla makes guesses about his background, but we're really left with no new development on him. I just wanted to know more about the Wraith, esp. after CG. Does Michael have a kid at home or 50,000 little darlings? :)

Ronon annoyed me with all his running off and disappearing. He needs a bell.

Weir didn't get much.

Sheppard...I don't know. Nothing big.

Teyla is the damsel in distress again, calling out for Ronon and then Shep. I almost expected her to start calling for Rodney too. And the boob shot? Yeah. Notice that the shot starts with a close-up of her breast and slowly pulls back to show the other important things in the room, you know...Teyla's face...Michael. The little things.

Even Rodney didn't do much for me.

That said, I didn't think it was horrible. I liked when they found the eggs. I also liked the Teyla/Rodney scenes. I was pleasantly surprised that they backed each other up instead of Teyla siding with Shep and Ronon and everyone giving that "McKay, suck it up!" look. I liked it. It shows that Teyla can be practical at times and not simply follow her emotions. So, I thought Teyla was okay in this one...despite the damsel role she seems to be embracing. :rolleyes:

Well, at least they remembered Michael is still alive. That's always good. :)

Unamed
February 2nd, 2007, 10:29 AM
god those creatures were ****! like the idea etc was good but they looked terrible! the reminded me of the bad guys in power rangers the way the waddled around!

LoveConquers
February 2nd, 2007, 10:34 AM
It was okay, I guess. More hallway walking. I've been trying to think of all the hallway walking scenes we've had and...wow. Talk about cutting costs.

And Michael is into dog breeding now? Because that's essentially what it was. Michael is breeding pitbulls. He's running a puppy mill...for bugs. I don't understand his logic behind it. He wants guard dogs...yeah. He's lonely. The Wraith seem very interconnected to each other. Why didn't he create an intelligent, stronger species with all the advantages of the Wraith, yet possessing human consciousness? A Super!Wraith. Now, that would have been a force to be reckoned with. He could have formed his own hive. Then again, those Super!Wraith could overthrow him...so maybe the pitbugs are good. A Wraith's best friend. As it was, I agree with whoever said these things looked like Teenage Mutant Ninja Turtles. And if it only takes one shot in the belly to kill them, how are they really any stonger than the Wraith? It reminded me a little of Duck Hunt. :)

I feel for Michael, for whatever reason. I really think they missed an excellent opportunity with him to go into the workings of Wraith society. Teyla makes guesses about his background, but we're really left with no new development on him. I just wanted to know more about the Wraith, esp. after CG. Does Michael have a kid at home or 50,000 little darlings? :)

Ronon annoyed me with all his running off and disappearing. He needs a bell.

Weir didn't get much.

Sheppard...I don't know. Nothing big.

Teyla is the damsel in distress again, calling out for Ronon and then Shep. I almost expected her to start calling for Rodney too. And the boob shot? Yeah. Notice that the shot starts with a close-up of her breast and slowly pulls back to show the other important things in the room, you know...Teyla's face...Michael. The little things.

:)


Er, what part are you talking about? Teyla's face is clearly visible in every close up while she is lying on that table. There are no shots where just her breasts fill the screen as you seem to imply. In every shot, it's her whole body, or a close-up of her face and chest. And might I add, Michael is also most definitely visible in that first shot when it starts with a close-up of Teyla and the camera slowly pans back.

Enough of the chest already.

I do agree with you though on Michael's experiment. Did I miss something there or was there supposed to be a point to it? (I mean that seriously, not sarcastically). If someone could explain that, I'd appreciate it! I don't understand his point of making an army of creatures that won't help him in his loneliness (at least from what it seemed) and they seem a little too easily killed to be too much of a threat if revenge was his motivation. I don't know, I was also a bit lost as to their exact purpose.

But I did love their creepiness factor though.

And I didn't mind these hallways. It was filmed in the basement of an old facility, so most definitely not the same set. I found them realistically creepy. I liked them a lot better than the hallways we saw in Submersion. Those felt old to me. But this set, I really liked.

Chailyn
February 2nd, 2007, 11:30 AM
Er, what part are you talking about? Teyla's face is clearly visible in every close up while she is lying on that table. There are no shots where just her breasts fill the screen as you seem to imply. In every shot, it's her whole body, or a close-up of her face and chest. And might I add, Michael is also most definitely visible in that first shot when it starts with a close-up of Teyla and the camera slowly pans back.

I swear there was a shot that encompassed just her chest before we saw that she was strapped down. I'll have to watch it again. I apologise now if I'm wrong. To be honest, I could care less if Teyla even started walking around naked. I have more problems with her damsel in distress characterization this season.



I do agree with you though on Michael's experiment. Did I miss something there or was there supposed to be a point to it? (I mean that seriously, not sarcastically). If someone could explain that, I'd appreciate it! I don't understand his point of making an army of creatures that won't help him in his loneliness (at least from what it seemed) and they seem a little too easily killed to be too much of a threat if revenge was his motivation. I don't know, I was also a bit lost as to their exact purpose.

But I did love their creepiness factor though.

Yeah, this was the let down for me. Michael kept really going on before about how he had nowhere to belong. He wasn't Human and he wasn't Wraith. How do these creatures give him a community? Michael kept them sectioned off and released them when he wanted them to attack. Maybe he's given up? He did say he needed them for protection, but could making them smarter really hurt? I just didn't like it.

Then, Ronon was taking them out like crazy at the end. Are we supposed to assume they're going to be a serious problem for Atantis? Even Michael says they're nothing more than animals. So...Atlantis is going to have a pest control problem? Even pitbulls seemed smarter than these things. I was hoping they'd at least have advanced psychic connections that would make them harder to fight, or be efficient pack hunters like ants. I don't know. Michael and his pitbugs. Hope they get proper vet care. ;)


And I didn't mind these hallways. It was filmed in the basement of an old facility, so most definitely not the same set. I found them realistically creepy. I liked them a lot better than the hallways we saw in Submersion. Those felt old to me. But this set, I really liked.

Yeah, I did like the feeling the set gave, but maybe they should have spaced the episodes out. We've had hallway walking in Echoes, The Ark, Submersion, Vengeance, etc. It just feels like overkill lately, imo. But, I did like the creepy tone. :)

expendable_crewman
February 2nd, 2007, 11:49 AM
2) American military mindset vs. Pegasus mindset (a.k.a common sense)

Sheppard doesn't know how to cut his losses in this situation, and I think that's a result of his looking at the situation as a typical Earth military conflict, where you capture the enemy and question them and rely on intel to make decisions. You can't fight like that in Pegasus. You know the enemy's agenda: to destroy you. All you can hope to do is destroy them first. That's what Ronon's trying to hammer home, and I think a little bit of it may have gotten into Shep's thick skull. The expedition has been expecting the Pegasus Galaxy to adapt to them in some ways; here we get it hammered home that they're going to have to adapt to the Pegasus Galaxy.

Sometimes you need to question the enemy. And sometimes you need to put a bullet in his/her/its brain. The Atlantis team needs to get better at figuring out which instances are which, and Ronon's speech indicated that.

Yes, I think we can safely say that Ronon taking Sheppard down a peg was my favorite part of this episode. It was a fantastic moment of Ronon asserting himself, not because he's stubborn but because he's right, and Jason played it very well.
and it also reminds us all that poor Shep really only has control of his off-world team in the most nominal sense. Which I actually like about this show. It just makes it that much better when he is in control.


Interesting points, some of which never before occurred to me. I swung between Ronon's POV and Sheppard's, ultimately deciding the conflict was entertaining for what it was.

Agreed, Jason Momoa was good.

The dynamic of Sheppard's team is a plus for me as well. I liked the change in the way he asserts control in this ep versus, say, the way he ran things in the Ark ... mainly because he can let the reins out (or have them yanked out) and he can snap them in tight without looking like (for lack of a better way of putting it) something in the back end of him has puckered.

On Teyla's B-Shot:
There are actually viewers (okay, one ... at least: me) who has made it through many SGA eps without ever noticing Teyla's cleavage, swells, hollows, or whatever it is that's ruffling the feathers ... until some unhappy fan brings it up online.

I saw an Iratus bug crawling up her body and that's all I saw until I re-watched looking for what some folks were complaining about.

Now, if it had been Sheppard on the table, Sheppard in a black T-shirt for example, I'd have had to go back and re-watch to see the Iratus bug.

But that's me.

Night Spring
February 2nd, 2007, 02:58 PM
I think people complaining about close-ups of Teyla's chest is the same thing as people complaining about too much hall-walking. If this had been the only episode this season with the characters running through hallways, I would have said without hesitation that it was very well done, with sufficient suspense and creepiness. Coming as it did, right on the tail of two other hall-walking episodes, I feel like, "Oh, please. Not again." Same with shots of Teyla's chest. If her breasts weren't so often emphasized in the course of this series, I'd have no problem with the closeups in this episode, as they actually, for once, had a purpose besides displaying her breasts. However, since this is like the n-tenth time I've seen her breasts on display, I'm going, "Oh, please. Not again."

Although... there can never be enough shots of Shep in his tight black t-shirts! And I want Rodney in tight t-shirts too! :D

expendable_crewman
February 2nd, 2007, 04:23 PM
I think people complaining about close-ups of Teyla's chest is the same thing as people complaining about too much hall-walking. If this had been the only episode this season with the characters running through hallways, I would have said without hesitation that it was very well done, with sufficient suspense and creepiness. Coming as it did, right on the tail of two other hall-walking episodes, I feel like, "Oh, please. Not again." Same with shots of Teyla's chest. If her breasts weren't so often emphasized in the course of this series, I'd have no problem with the closeups in this episode, as they actually, for once, had a purpose besides displaying her breasts. However, since this is like the n-tenth time I've seen her breasts on display, I'm going, "Oh, please. Not again."

Although... there can never be enough shots of Shep in his tight black t-shirts! And I want Rodney in tight t-shirts too! :DWell, that's fine, I guess. So long as people realize that from others' points of view the emphasis comes more from the fans than the show.

Me, I went back to the scene, saw that yes indeed the woman has breasts, and so what.

Rodney in tight T-shirts? There you go. I agree.

But I do think it's time we admit Sheppard in T-shirts is a bit of a distraction. I bet it's done to boost ratings among a certain demographic. As much as we love our visual aids, we should be bigger than this and stand up for a completely covered up Shep. Learning to do without the black T-shirts, nice pects, and nice biceps will make us stronger and better people.

joebags
February 2nd, 2007, 04:32 PM
I've thought of doing the drinking game every time Teyla's upper half was front and center, but I don't think I'd make it to the 2nd commercial. ;)



But I do think it's time we admit Sheppard in T-shirts is a bit of a distraction. I bet it's done to boost ratings among a certain demographic. As much as we love our visual aids, we should be bigger than this and stand up for a completely covered up Shep. Learning to do without the black T-shirts, nice pects, and nice biceps will make us stronger and better people.

I've never seen Shep shirtless, or even exposing chest, but then I don't exactly look for it. If Teyla was covered a bit more without the camera hitting us over the head that she is female, she would be much sexier.

The phoney bugs weren't that bad, but I don't expect perfection with a TV show that has a limited budget, but I wish Michael had a bit more development. He wasn't as interesting as I expected him to be.

vaberella
February 2nd, 2007, 06:21 PM
This is the quote from Luz saying that she watched the Teyla jumping scene in question and giving her opinion. I also just rewatched it in slow motion backwards and forwards. She jumps over what I believe to be a log, but in no way can I tell that the height of her jump is anything any reasonably athletic young person running for her life couldn't do.

Now can we please stop nitpicking every opinion that might disagree with yours and get back to discussing Vengeance?

Are you speaking to me? Because if you are, apparently we can't, since you not only bothered to answer me but to also quote, Luz?. That being said, you quoted her and disagreed with her statement proving that she was incorrect that Teyla just 'ran' over the log in Rising2. She as you even agreed to say jumped. As for any athletic person doing that might be the case, but watch John behind her, he was running behind her and he ran over the log, didn't jump it. You can see she jumped, and of course with the use of strings, but it was done with the same affect. My point then has been made. You can say athletic, because I'll agree to that, but since John who I find to be very athletic and in the same situation didn't do that, but Teyla did, I put that down to her abilities.
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I'm all for on topic posts. :D As for Vegeance...as I mentioned before, great ep, really good if we're looking at team and action. Plus I liked the affect of an added enemy, I wonder how mindless these bugs are since they have merged ith human DNA. This could prove interesting in the future, since evolution and with the amount of tests Michael has been doing can lead to the 'Teyla's lineage' situation, a new breed of something. And let's say that one of Michael's enemies gets rid of him and what happens to the hundreds of Iratus bug/mutants. Further more I'd like to know how these suckers reproduce and if they work like roaches...because if that's the case, the Atlantis people and those of the PG just have an extremely formidable enemy---since they probably even surpass the wraith.

With that in mind, I like where this could lead....and it shows how many more enemies the Atlantis team inadvertently created and just have, the Genii, the Wraith, Michael, Michael's drones (since they coudl go rogue if the writers choose), the Asurans----and people who know the story of how they caused the mass amount of wraith. Man, S4 will rock.

Luz
February 2nd, 2007, 06:41 PM
The phoney bugs weren't that bad, but I don't expect perfection with a TV show that has a limited budget, but I wish Michael had a bit more development. He wasn't as interesting as I expected him to be.
Another movie they copied from paid homage to, "the Island of Doctor Mureau", making Michael the ridiculous mad scientist is not nearly as bad as

Irresponsible
killing Kolya on some cheesy "semi-western in a dutch village" episode,

but only because they didn't kill him, 'cause the episode was as cheesy as they come. With Teyla in the role of the 'scream queen' with the heaving bosom, the recycled corridors, and the obviously plastic figure of a monster.

I'll need some crackers and wine to digest all that cheese. ;)

vaberella
February 2nd, 2007, 06:49 PM
I've thought of doing the drinking game every time Teyla's upper half was front and center, but I don't think I'd make it to the 2nd commercial. ;)



I've never seen Shep shirtless, or even exposing chest, but then I don't exactly look for it. If Teyla was covered a bit more without the camera hitting us over the head that she is female, she would be much sexier.

The phoney bugs weren't that bad, but I don't expect perfection with a TV show that has a limited budget, but I wish Michael had a bit more development. He wasn't as interesting as I expected him to be.

So I guess that means you didn't see Thirty-Eight Minutes or Epiphany? Nice pics of John's chest. Or maybe I was looking for it, hence the reason I saw it; no no, it was pretty blatant in the scene. I'm more partial to a future pic with more than McKay's shoulders like in Duet.

As for Teyla, I don't notice, I was all about the bug in the chest shot. That bug looked cool walking up her body. I don't see anything about her chest taking away from her appeal. She's a beautiful woman and as such she has a right to expose whatever she chooses and how she chooses. A beautiful woman is a beautiful woman no matter what. Some people say that less is more, but that's something cultural. There are many cultures in todays society where women wear no clothing or as little as possible, while there are others where woman wear clothing up to their necks and cover their face. I could care either way.

I look at her attire as something paticular to her taste and her culture, as most styles of clothing are; that being said, her clothing or lack there of mean nothing, unless I get a weird pleasure out of focusing on it in every scene just in hopes of seeing her chest. Or maybe it's because I have a set of my own that I care so little about it on others. :D :D :D I'm more interested in seeing the body parts I don't have...:Dtongue in cheek:D

I loved Mike...he was great as is, and I think he definitely opened the doors to more stories and more moments with him.

joebags
February 2nd, 2007, 07:19 PM
As for Teyla, I don't notice, I was all about the bug in the chest shot. That bug looked cool walking up her body. I don't see anything about her chest taking away from her appeal. She's a beautiful woman and as such she has a right to expose whatever she chooses and how she chooses. A beautiful woman is a beautiful woman no matter what.

I look at her attire as something paticular to her taste and her culture, as most styles of clothing are; that being said, her clothing or lack there of mean nothing, unless I get a weird pleasure out of focusing on it in every scene just in hopes of seeing her chest.

In 38 Minutes Shep was getting a nice chest shock to save his life. A lot different than parading around like a dom all the time.

Oh, come on. You act like Teyla is a real person. The writers have her boobs front and center at least once a week, and its done to attract us guys, most of whom don't really care. We'd rather see Shep and Ronon shooting stuff (like bugs!) The writers certainly don't care about Teyla's culture. You just can't stand to have anyone not bow down to Great Goddess Super Woman new breed Teyla. Not everyone likes her. <snip>

Skydiver
February 2nd, 2007, 07:28 PM
Let's keep this thread to the topic at hand, which is the episode. If Teyla's costume is such an issue, perhaps folks would like to start a thread to discuss it in

the fifth man
February 2nd, 2007, 07:35 PM
Hmmm, overall, I enjoyed this episode. I can't wait to see where things go from here.

Mitchell82
February 2nd, 2007, 08:51 PM
I'm a girl, and I agree.

And really, there is a practical side to it. To put it simply, the bug needs skin. What's the threat of the bug biting into a big old chunk of tac vest? That thing is so big on Teyla, imagine her lying down in it. Her head would be straining to stick out of the thing like a floundering turtle on its back.

(We do see her lying in the thing in Phantoms and again, the turtle image comes to mind).

The image is not nearly as threatening as it is when we see her exposed neck.

Thank you. I was afraid I was being a "boob" so to speak. Nice to see a "girls" opinion.

andrewag
February 3rd, 2007, 03:08 AM
This was a great stand alone episode. I really enjoyed it.

vaberella
February 3rd, 2007, 03:55 AM
Hmmm, overall, I enjoyed this episode. I can't wait to see where things go from here.

That's what I've been saying for a while now. This can lead to some great stuff in future. Plus, I'd love to see some really great development on those bugs, and this is as I mentioned about how long they remain under the control of Michael---meaning what happens when they develop a mind of their own. Because they ingested so much human DNA and since we dont' know how how much more of human DNA becomes a part of them; especially with more refined tests by Michael---would they turn. If they do, we'd have an entirely separate breed that could create a sort of hive set up, the drones or army and the leaders of the army (the more advanced and accomplished tests).

I'd personally like to see these bugs against not only Atlantis but definitely across the Wraith. As I had mentioned before, Michael seems to have created the bugs as his own defense agaisnt both humans and wraith...imagine the battle between these things and the wraith. This is what made this ep cool, just the unknown complications, action, and storyline this could lead too. And the premise of Weir's guilt probably overshadowing her already questionable executive decisions, could lead to a good amount of story for her, not only the team. I already felt this was a great ep for Ronon, but one only notices if you're looking for those things. Much like Common Ground being a John story, but I felt it was fantastic for Weir, and definitely with a little something there for McKay/Ronon.



Let's keep this thread to the topic at hand, which is the episode. If Teyla's costume is such an issue, perhaps folks would like to start a thread to discuss it in

Hmmm, good premise but let's not Sky, I wasn't around for it, but I was directed to the thread that was started on her clothing and it turned into direct bashing that was far from a joke...then it strayed when people were called on what they said, mods included. We'd just be stuck in a cyclical situation. :D

Southern Red
February 3rd, 2007, 04:38 AM
Are you speaking to me? Because if you are, apparently we can't, since you not only bothered to answer me but to also quote, Luz?. That being said, you quoted her and disagreed with her statement proving that she was incorrect that Teyla just 'ran' over the log in Rising2. She as you even agreed to say jumped. As for any athletic person doing that might be the case, but watch John behind her, he was running behind her and he ran over the log, didn't jump it. You can see she jumped, and of course with the use of strings, but it was done with the same affect. My point then has been made. You can say athletic, because I'll agree to that, but since John who I find to be very athletic and in the same situation didn't do that, but Teyla did, I put that down to her abilities.
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I just cannot allow this to stand. I was agreeing with Luz, not disagreeing. It's pretty hard to run over a log that big without at least a little jump. John's legs are longer, thus he did not need to jump as high as Teyla. As I saw it, anyone who was running that fast could clear a log with a good sized jump that was in no way supernatural. Strings? Maybe you saw something I didn't. If we all agree that Teyla is the epitome of superhuman strength, grace and beauty, can we drop this now?

expendable_crewman
February 3rd, 2007, 05:46 AM
.... Great Goddess Super Woman new breed Teyla ...

There you are. Glad we have that settled.

Although she's probably not "new" to the Pegasus, just to the Earthers.

Watched again and decided I'm okay with a goddess superwoman calling to the team for help. I read somewhere that recognizing one's limitations is a sign of greatness.

Being tied up qualifies as a limitation.

Uh, after some persuasion, I'm reversing my opinion on Sheppard's T-shirts.

Distract me.

vaberella
February 3rd, 2007, 07:27 AM
I just cannot allow this to stand. I was agreeing with Luz, not disagreeing. It's pretty hard to run over a log that big without at least a little jump. John's legs are longer, thus he did not need to jump as high as Teyla. As I saw it, anyone who was running that fast could clear a log with a good sized jump that was in no way supernatural. Strings? Maybe you saw something I didn't. If we all agree that Teyla is the epitome of superhuman strength, grace and beauty, can we drop this now?

~sigh~ I decided the best way to explain my point is to requote you...



She didn't, it's on the scene where Sheppard and her are running through the woods after the wraith arrive, there is this small mound, Teyla runs over it. It's understandable that someone would get confused since the scene is very dark, but I just watched it, and no, she doesn't fly or jump, or whatever, she just runs over it.
As for the running, they were all running fast, if running fast is a super power then all the athosians have it. *lol*

This is the quote from Luz saying that she watched the Teyla jumping scene in question and giving her opinion. I also just rewatched it in slow motion backwards and forwards. She jumps over what I believe to be a log, but in no way can I tell that the height of her jump is anything any reasonably athletic young person running for her life couldn't do.

Now can we please stop nitpicking every opinion that might disagree with yours and get back to discussing Vengeance?This is the quote from Luz saying that she watched the Teyla jumping scene in question and giving her opinion. I also just rewatched it in slow motion backwards and forwards. She jumps over what I believe to be a log, but in no way can I tell that the height of her jump is anything any reasonably athletic young person running for her life couldn't do.

Now can we please stop nitpicking every opinion that might disagree with yours and get back to discussing Vengeance?

Should I rest my case?! You say you're agreeing with her, but you contradict what she says, because Luz specifically says---as you quoted that Teyla RUNS over it, "she doesn't fly or jump, or whatever, she runs over it."(Luz) But just to point out again, you said she jumps, over and over again...all in bold/red.

I'll answer the other questions, but hmmm...I don't know if it's worth it after the above. John has longer legs? I'm trying to figure what longers legs have to do with it. First you say an athletic person, now it's down to height. How tall is Teyla she's not a 'little person' or primordial that she'd need to jump over the log. She could have used it as a form of producing momentum but instead she jumps over it. Again the height in her jump and the way she jumped looked awkward to me, hence my usage of strings, but that's just me; I don't intend everyone to see the same that as similar, but she did jump and you said as much.
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Did I make people feel pressure that they MUST agree that Teyla is this and that? Hardly, since I've been known to criticize Teyla's character. But if you believe she's the epitome ofo such, how can I argue...:D She is hot, can dial a gate, understands McKay's babbling (without translations), and she can kick some butt, I like her.


There you are. Glad we have that settled.

Although she's probably not "new" to the Pegasus, just to the Earthers.

Watched again and decided I'm okay with a goddess superwoman calling to the team for help. I read somewhere that recognizing one's limitations is a sign of greatness.

Being tied up qualifies as a limitation.

Uh, after some persuasion, I'm reversing my opinion on Sheppard's T-shirts.

Distract me.

LOL, sorry I found this entire statement hilarious. :sheppard33:

Luz
February 3rd, 2007, 07:46 AM
*omg* Some people don't let a poor dead horse liehttp://i66.photobucket.com/albums/h280/Schumpeter/smilies/beat_deadhorse.gif, *eyeroll* loved Rodney's lesson, he looked ten years old, so cute.

Southern Red
February 3rd, 2007, 09:53 AM
*omg* Some people don't let a poor dead horse liehttp://i66.photobucket.com/albums/h280/Schumpeter/smilies/beat_deadhorse.gif, *eyeroll* loved Rodney's lesson, he looked ten years old, so cute.

Oops, sorry to misquote you hon. You say run. I say jump. Either way, I'm just http://bestsmileys.com/hitting/14.gif. lol

And that fight scene with Rodney was the best. Loved his outfit. The yellow belt was a nice touch. Ronon seemed to be trying his best not to hurt him. And loved how Mom and Dad came to see what the boys were up to. ;)

Ruined_puzzle
February 3rd, 2007, 09:56 AM
Mom and Dad were cuteness, plus they were busy with something else :) Hey its part of the episode I can say that. lol.

*runs away*

Luz
February 3rd, 2007, 10:11 AM
Oops, sorry to misquote you hon. You say run. I say jump. Either way, I'm just http://bestsmileys.com/hitting/14.gif. lol

And that fight scene with Rodney was the best. Loved his outfit. The yellow belt was a nice touch. Ronon seemed to be trying his best not to hurt him. And loved how Mom and Dad came to see what the boys were up to. ;)

Don't worry, I know you were only trying to help. :P And yeah, that scene looked like Sheppard and Weir picking up their ten year old from gym class, teh cuteness.

Celcool
February 3rd, 2007, 10:37 AM
Rodney/Ronon scene was hilarious, Rodney's expression when we first see he's the one fighting with Ronon. *lol* Thanks Carl Binder for that! Now there's only Elizabeth left to train sparring. I know! John should teach her! ;)

Night Spring
February 3rd, 2007, 11:24 AM
loved Rodney's lesson, he looked ten years old, so cute.
Talking about Rodney's sword-fighting lesson, someone was wondering about why he would rate a yellow belt. But that whole getup is way too big for him -- looks like he's wearing clothes that fits someone the size of Ronon. So maybe he just borrowed the thing from someone else, and the yellow belt came with it?

Luz
February 3rd, 2007, 11:34 AM
Talking about Rodney's sword-fighting lesson, someone was wondering about why he would rate a yellow belt. But that whole getup is way too big for him -- looks like he's wearing clothes that fits someone the size of Ronon. So maybe he just borrowed the thing from someone else, and the yellow belt came with it?

I hear the clothes are some kind of nod at ADB, but since I don't know what the movie is about I have no idea.

Night Spring
February 3rd, 2007, 11:44 AM
I hear the clothes are some kind of nod at ADB, but since I don't know what the movie is about I have no idea.

You can see the trailer here (http://www.dgeek.com/). (warning! more hewlett than you ever wanted to see! :D) However, the clothes DH is wearing in ADB fit him, and the belt is a dark color -- can't tell if it's brown or black, but definitely not yellow.

MB.Eddie
February 3rd, 2007, 03:33 PM
Interesting episode.

Had an Alien v Predator feel to it. Also felt darker than most eps.
Was good to see Michael again too :)
Im sure we will be seeing more of those Hybrids in the future...

Mitchell82
February 3rd, 2007, 07:13 PM
Interesting episode.

Had an Alien v Predator feel to it. Also felt darker than most eps.
Was good to see Michael again too :)
Im sure we will be seeing more of those Hybrids in the future...

I hope so I really loved it.

the old briar pipe
February 3rd, 2007, 09:19 PM
Talking about Rodney's sword-fighting lesson, someone was wondering about why he would rate a yellow belt.

Heh. A yellow belt, at least in the styles I've studied, is just one or two steps up from beginner. If Rodney can lift his leg high enough to kick and can memorize a few basic movements, he can qualify.

Personally, I think the clothes are borrowed but the belt is his. Daed's supposed to have limited room, why would they ship a gi for everyone? And I really want to imagine an after-hours Taikwondo or Aikido class where Rodney and other scientists huff their way to better self-defense. *imagines Zelenka in a gi*

Of course, Ronon already gave us that image. *hearts :ronan:*

AutumnDream
February 3rd, 2007, 10:59 PM
I bet Zelenka is a total closet ninja. :D

bcfc
February 4th, 2007, 10:45 AM
This was great and was better than Submersion, I loved the look of the Bugs and cant wait to see how the Michael ark develops.

Did remind you of Aliens alot though but at least they admitted it LOL

Mitchell82
February 4th, 2007, 08:12 PM
This was great and was better than Submersion, I loved the look of the Bugs and cant wait to see how the Michael ark develops.

Did remind you of Aliens alot though but at least they admitted it LOL

That was my first thought and I loved it. Especially rodney's reaction to the comment.

h4mx0r
February 6th, 2007, 04:11 PM
Coolest. Episode. Ever. Not the 'best' of stargate, but one of the coolest. I mean, stargate, and an Aliens-eque theme. What could be better than combining my two favorite sci-fi sagas of all time?

:D

Brendan
February 7th, 2007, 11:10 AM
Must say I quite enjoyed this after a lackluster season. I always like seeing Conner Trinnear pop up every now and I hope they don't over use him like Robert Davi (Koyla). I have a feeling Michael will be back as part of the mid-season finale for season 4!

Leanna20
February 8th, 2007, 04:38 AM
OH , my God! a mad wraith hibrid! That was just so cool! (and very funny!)
I really liked this episode, althought I didn't quite get Michael's purpose for his new "pets". I mean , they did seemed stupid and quite easilly killed in the end. Anyway , I guess the wraith just don't like to be alone.
I honestly couldn't care less if they show Teyla's cleavege, I didn't even notice it( although, from all the complains it was rather hard to miss). I would have prefered John on that table,or , even better, Carson. Michael killing Carson would have made more sense then the exploding tumour.
Other than that I think Ronon really needs to evolve!!!!!!!!!!!!!! With him there are no surprises , we know exactly what he's going to do and say.
And, with these bugs now in Pegasus Galaxy, the wraith will have even less food. Boy, are they gone be angry when they found out about Michael!;) Let's hope they don't kill ; I quite like Connor Trinner:P.

Falcon Horus
February 8th, 2007, 03:42 PM
Really great episode. I enjoyed it a lot.

The beginning was obviously hilarious with Rodney training with Ronon. Poor McKay looked about ready to run and hide. :D
I just knew Ronon would attack him when he turned to Lizzie and Sheppard.

Michael back in action, scary as ever with his alien-creatures. They really should have listened to Sheppard when he said they were using the airshafts. And I got the chills when the irratus-bug came into play, with its scary chirping or whatever you call that sound.

Carson should have gone out in this episode, with Michael as his executioner. Seemed fitting. Do to them, what they did to you. But instead it was Teyla, whom I might add, was a good choice as well, seeing the sort of relationship she and Michael share. I think in a way he respects her. He didn't feed on her in 'Michael' but we can't forget she too was guilty on leaving him to die in 'Misbegotten'. But still, I feel Michael is quite fond of Teyla in a way.

I felt sorry for the marines who obviously came in to be the red shirts of the episode.

And I loved the scene at the end between Teyla and Elizabeth.

Integrabyte
February 9th, 2007, 02:22 PM
Interesting episode I must say. If the whole "enemy of my enemy is my friend" issue will apply later on in season 4 and Michael will "configure" his creatures to attack the Wraith I have nothing against that :P. However, I doubt he will turn on his own kind. Oh well, wishfull thinking ;).

dtemplar
February 10th, 2007, 07:26 AM
This whole "experiment" idea was stolen from StarCraft. The "experiment" from StarCraft, similarly, is a Hybrid of Protoss/Zerg, 2 of 3 of the predominante species in the game. It appears in a secret level in the game and plays a very significant role in the game because it is one of the major unanswered question in the storyline of the game.

And I'm pretty sure the writers knew about this too. They mentioned World of WarCraft in that one other episode, and StarCraft is another game made by the very same company, so I'm pretty sure they played the game. I just hate it when the producers takes an idea from another less known story, tailor it into their own uses, then people praises it for its creativity.

Now for some of you hardcore fanboys you probably will say WarCraft is stolen from LOTR, Protoss != Wraith, and lists about 3458943t6456 other examples of how ____ is also stolen from ____. Before you say anything, take a look at this screenie from the game. Nice job copying and pasting the script guys!

the old briar pipe
February 11th, 2007, 04:37 PM
This whole "experiment" idea was stolen from StarCraft. The "experiment" from StarCraft, similarly, is a Hybrid of Protoss/Zerg, 2 of 3 of the predominante species in the game. It appears in a secret level in the game and plays a very significant role in the game because it is one of the major unanswered question in the storyline of the game.

And I'm pretty sure the writers knew about this too. They mentioned World of WarCraft in that one other episode, and StarCraft is another game made by the very same company, so I'm pretty sure they played the game. I just hate it when the producers takes an idea from another less known story, tailor it into their own uses, then people praises it for its creativity.

Now for some of you hardcore fanboys you probably will say WarCraft is stolen from LOTR, Protoss != Wraith, and lists about 3458943t6456 other examples of how ____ is also stolen from ____. Before you say anything, take a look at this screenie from the game. Nice job copying and pasting the script guys!

Well, I won't say tptb aren't geekboys (they obviously are), but I do think the text in your capture is pretty generic. All the evil supervillians say that, even the uncool ones. It's a requirement of the job. ;)

Do you have captures of these hybrids? I've avoided everything since Warcraft II.

thewatcher
February 22nd, 2007, 01:05 PM
I've not read all of this thread, but early on someone talked about the stupidity of the characters and I have to agree. SGA seems to make much of everyone's skill at making dumb decisions. Shepperd has started the last two episodes with references to movies (twice both times in case the audience missed it), yet when it comes to searching for a hard to kill Alien, his advice is "split up". Has he never seen a horror movie?
And as for not disabling the DHD before leaving? Duh.
This episode was another routine running around corridors after the superbaddy like Submerged, but at least Ronon got some screen time and a good line "I like your idea better." All too predictable and no real tension.

TwiceBorn
February 25th, 2007, 02:54 PM
I've not read all of this thread, but early on someone talked about the stupidity of the characters and I have to agree. SGA seems to make much of everyone's skill at making dumb decisions. Shepperd has started the last two episodes with references to movies (twice both times in case the audience missed it), yet when it comes to searching for a hard to kill Alien, his advice is "split up". Has he never seen a horror movie?
And as for not disabling the DHD before leaving? Duh.
This episode was another routine running around corridors after the superbaddy like Submerged, but at least Ronon got some screen time and a good line "I like your idea better." All too predictable and no real tension.

It's funny you say that, my brother spent the whole episode shouting "Stupid Idiots!" And what was even dummer of the team than this episode is what they did in trying to fool ol' Mikey in the second episode of this season. (It seems they never learn!)
I agree with you utterly and fully, and besides what you said, the episode seemed a little empty anyway.
Now, haveing said that, i'm not sorry they put this episode in. It was a ripoff of many other things. but still entertaining compared to the OTHER episodes they've been showing. Besides, i like this new baddie. If you ask me thay're 32.463 times cooler than the new stupid replicators.
Overall, the good outwayed the bad.
Good episode...

ChelApophis
February 26th, 2007, 04:14 AM
I liked this episode. Well , other than the usual stupid things that Sped and his team do: they find a pile of bobies , a secret wraith laboratory , and instead of waiting for help they go checking it out by themselves. All the marines are dead, c'on!!! all? it's like only Shep and his team have combat skills.
It was great seeing Michael again , althought I'm not fan of his new bugs( for the moment at least). I understand why he created them but I'm not sure where this will take him. Anyway, I prefer Michael's bugs to replicators.
I'm not surprised that he chose Teyla to be his first victim , sometimes I wonder if he loves her or hates her.
They should have killed Dr.Becket in this episode , that would have made sense( more sense then an explosive tumour) , in this way it would have been truly vengeance.
But , I fear that the only ones that truly got a taste of Michael's vengeance were the taranians.

jonno
March 3rd, 2007, 03:33 PM
I liked it, overall - Michael is just the kind of developed individual bad guy the show needs (along the lines of Apophis and Baal). The wraith are all very well, but they are always different ones each week. I'd guess so far the only major enemy to appear in more than 2 episodes would be Kolya and Michael. And we all know what happened to Kolya.

Plus, as a bad guy he's interesting, because the heroes have 'made' him. And as an audience, we can sympathise with him.

Team SG-1*save the show*
March 7th, 2007, 11:11 AM
im watchin it now-just started in the uk

Listy
March 7th, 2007, 11:44 AM
Just watching it now am loving it so far, nice dark and creepy ep. Jumped out of my skin the first time the bug jumped out at them in the corridor. The location is fantastic, wasn't it an old mental hospital of something? Very creepy!! The return of Michael is wonderful, like how angry he is! Bring on the vengeance!!

Rodney attempting to Spar with Ronon made me giggle, and Sheppards "I hate those bugs" comment was fab!! All in all so far a really good episode.

Team SG-1*save the show*
March 7th, 2007, 11:50 AM
Just watching it now am loving it so far, nice dark and creepy ep. Jumped out of my skin the first time the bug jumped out at them in the corridor. The location is fantastic, wasn't it an old mental hospital of something? Very creepy!! The return of Michael is wonderful, like how angry he is! Bring on the vengeance!!

Rodney attempting to Spar with Ronon made me giggle, and Sheppards "I hate those bugs" comment was fab!! All in all so far a really good episode.

i agree. i think this episode is great.
those bug things are horrible!!!! ahhhhhhhhhh lol :)

The Great Lord Baal
March 7th, 2007, 11:51 AM
Oh that micheal got to love him

Team SG-1*save the show*
March 7th, 2007, 11:54 AM
so does this mean michael was originally a wraith scientist???

Team SG-1*save the show*
March 7th, 2007, 11:56 AM
at least they are going back for that wraith dart. they could use that!

Listy
March 7th, 2007, 11:58 AM
i agree. i think this episode is great.
those bug things are horrible!!!! ahhhhhhhhhh lol :)

Its so good, the setting is so dark and creepy, I think I will be checking under my bed before I risk sleep tonight :lol:

Team SG-1*save the show*
March 7th, 2007, 12:01 PM
Its so good, the setting is so dark and creepy, I think I will be checking under my bed before I risk sleep tonight :lol:

me too :lol:

love the sig by the way :)

The Great Lord Baal
March 7th, 2007, 12:01 PM
Good episode

Team SG-1*save the show*
March 7th, 2007, 12:03 PM
10/10:)

Listy
March 7th, 2007, 12:08 PM
so does this mean michael was originally a wraith scientist???

Interesting, I guess so, wonder if we will see more and get more info in S4


me too :lol:

love the sig by the way :)

Thanks, can't take any credit for it though. Pegasus SGA made it for me. I have neither the talent nor the correct software to make one:)

I now can't wait for First Strike. Vengeance was so enjoyable to watch, only thing I was missing was popcorn :)

Team SG-1*save the show*
March 7th, 2007, 12:13 PM
i cant wait for that episode either. i cant believe next week (tues) it is the last ep of sg1.

michael must of been a scientist. no normal wraith could figure out that stuff.
We need beckett back to explain stuff better!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Listy
March 7th, 2007, 12:21 PM
i cant wait for that episode either. i cant believe next week (tues) it is the last ep of sg1.

michael must of been a scientist. no normal wraith could figure out that stuff.
We need beckett back to explain stuff better!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Yep, its really sad that it just seems like Carson has disappeared and no-one seems affected by it in the ep :( I miss Carson he was fab, and you never know... death isn't always the end in scifi :) But I have read some positive stuff about Season 4 inspite of the lack of Carson I really can't wait to see it.

Team SG-1*save the show*
March 7th, 2007, 12:29 PM
yeah-nobody seems to mention beckett, not even mckay. i really want beckett back. i will be watching season 4 even though beckett has gone as i love stargate and will watch it no matter what.
i watched a documentary on discovery channel a few months ago called stargate saved my life. did anyone else see it? and i have watched stargate: true science several times. These promote stargate and if the show wasnt important they wouldnt show stuff like this. so i cant figure out why sci-fi cancelled

Cant wait for next weeks atlantis episode though and SG-1's last episode (still wish had another season).

Team SG-1*save the show*
March 7th, 2007, 12:30 PM
i hope we see more of michael and his evil bug soldiers in season 4!

O'Neill4prez
March 8th, 2007, 09:58 AM
No mention of Carson, in a story relating to his character's main (if not only) arc?

Submersion was forgiveable, but this isn't

I won't be watching this one either.

What a bad way of deciding why too watch an episode. SGA was not made up of one character, Beckett wasn't as central character as Shepard's team, they're the bigger focus of the Show. anyway why would they mention him, plenty of other people have died in or left (Ford) and they don't keep mentioning them, the characters have too move on. As for Michael talking about Beckett, why would he, he blamed everyone on Atlantis not just Beckett:beckett:

Matt G
March 9th, 2007, 02:31 PM
1. Hmmm...the general horror tone was done better in SG1's 'The Tomb'.

2. It's interesting. I still think that the team shouldn't regret trying what they did in "Michael". I like non-lethal ways of fighting your enemy! However Dex was on the money when he said that the experiment has now well and truly blown up in their faces, they should write it off and look to kill Michael!

3. On the other hand, while there were few reasons to mention Beckett in 'Submersion' there were few reasons not to mention him here. Let Michael gloat over his death, I wouldn't have been offended.

Point 3 gives Submersion the edge over this.

darkrose
March 11th, 2007, 09:28 PM
I still think that the team shouldn't regret trying what they did in "Michael". I like non-lethal ways of fighting your enemy!

I was starting to wonder if it was just me. I don't get the whole "look what they did to poor Michael!" thing. Yes, absolutely, they changed him without his consent. But come on--he's a Wraith! As far as he was concerned before the first retrovirus treatment, humans were food, and he was probably on board with the plan to find the "rich new feeding ground". The retrovirus seemed like a reasonable way to stop the Wraith from making us all lunch without killing them. Okay, so it didn't work: but I was glad that at least Ronon understands that when you're fighting a war for your survival as a species, you have a lot less room to sit and agonize over the ethics.

Dusk
March 26th, 2007, 06:11 AM
LAME! What a rip-off of the Alien/Predator franchise!

Lame = Ronan and his ******* stun/kill/stun/kill song and dance. Do us all a favour and set it to "no one gives a frak" then promptly insert up you barbarian orifice. This character is boring.

Lame = weren't the hybrids supposed to be more resilient and deadly than the Wraith? then why does it only take a few bullets or a single pop from big foot's fart gun to take them out? ooooooh, scary

Lame = Michael doesnt want to live? go stick your head in a dissipating wormhole silly man-wraith, don't bother the Atlantis team!

Lame = bad acting, come on guys,we've seen you pull much better

I'd pretend this episode never existed, but then I'm sure the writers will bring back a "hybrids loose in Atlantis" story or some such rubbish and I'll have to acknowledge it.

The Stargate franchise REALLY needs to pull some better bad guys to the fore. All we're getting is cliches, jerks, and dumbasses. Instill some real fear into the characters/audience and stop going for the obvious.

da040926
May 8th, 2007, 04:15 PM
Michael is a pretty interesting character, I can easily understand his anger and hate towards human. I would also had been angered, if some cows had changed me into a cow, erased my memory and lied to me, that I had always been a cow ... twice ...

Unfortunately there is one issue why I was strongly dissapointed with this episode. Lets see my thoughts ...

Michal created Superwraiths. They all saw them as a big threat to Atlantis ... Yet, Shepard and Ronan killed about 20 of those "SuperWraiths" with a stun gun and most of them died on one shot. Sorry ???

Perhaps I am too picky, but such a logical nonsense screwed up the whole episode for me :(

I must also mention strongly irritating tactical stupidity of the Team ... the Best of the Best (?)
Whole planet murdered? Something very suspicious on the life detector? All right, let's our heroine, who is watching the back of the team, enter a room without warning anyone else! (??)
Are we tracking the most dangerous monster in the galaxy? All right, let's dispart, I will go left and you go right! (??)

Sorry friends, but I'll tell you one ... screenwriters are overpaid, bored and lazy. That's proabybly the only explanation why they CHEAT so obviously :-((

I still don't lose all my hope .. perhaps they will by some accident produce a few good episodes ...

P.S. Sorry for my English, I am not a native speaker.