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GateWorld
November 19th, 2006, 09:51 PM
<DIV ALIGN="center"><TABLE WIDTH="450" BORDER="0" CELLSPACING="0" CELLPADDING="7"><TR><TD><DIV ALIGN="left"><FONT FACE="Verdana, Arial, san-serif" SIZE="2" COLOR="#000000"><A HREF="http://www.gateworld.net/atlantis/s3/318.shtml"><IMG SRC="http://www.gateworld.net/atlantis/graphics/318.jpg" WIDTH="160" HEIGHT="120" ALIGN="right" HSPACE="10" VSPACE="2" BORDER="0" STYLE="border: 1px black solid" ALT="Visit the Episode Guide"></A><FONT SIZE="1" COLOR="#888888">ATLANTIS SEASON THREE</FONT>
<FONT SIZE="4"><A HREF="http://www.gateworld.net/atlantis/s3/318.shtml" STYLE="text-decoration: none">SUBMERSION</A></FONT>
<FONT SIZE="1">EPISODE NUMBER - 318</FONT>
<IMG SRC="/images/clear.gif" WIDTH="1" HEIGHT="10" ALT="">
The team discovers an Ancient drilling station deep beneath the surface of the ocean, only to find that a Wraith queen is still alive there.

<FONT SIZE="1" COLOR="#888888"><B><A HREF="http://www.gateworld.net/atlantis/s3/318.shtml">VISIT THE EPISODE GUIDE ></A></B>
SPOILERS! PHOTOS! AND MORE!</FONT></FONT></DIV></TD></TR></TABLE></DIV>

travis
January 23rd, 2007, 04:12 AM
LOL I hav'nt seen it yet but can some on whom has please please please give us some info the wait is killing us. Thanks

leelakin
January 23rd, 2007, 04:15 AM
I haven't seen it either, but here's the info (from people who have already seen it) I've heard so far:

-the "unexpected visitor" is a Wraith Queen
-she possesses Teyla
-Elizabeth is also on the mission
-Teyla kicks Ronon's behind
-no mention of Carson AT ALL

travis
January 23rd, 2007, 04:18 AM
Yeah I got that.
LOL may be we should just start our own discusion from those info heheehehh

travis
January 23rd, 2007, 04:24 AM
I wonder what the wraith queen looks like this time

ps do we really need spoilers in this thread as this is the discussion thread and fans whom are spoilerphobic should'nt be here any way.:)

andr3w_iii
January 23rd, 2007, 04:28 AM
I wonder what the wraith queen looks like this time

ps do we really need spoilers in this thread as this is the discussion thread and fans whom are spoilerphobic should'nt be here any way.:)

yeah i agree it is after all a thread about the episode so why the need to spoiler tags after all the name of the thread should be warning enough

:mckay:

silence
January 23rd, 2007, 04:46 AM
damn... i am resiting to open more spoilers... but i am weak...

travis
January 23rd, 2007, 04:51 AM
LOL how's everyone doing? Surley there must be someone that's seen this ep and is around to comment. May be it's that bad that they can't be bothered.

suppie
January 23rd, 2007, 05:31 AM
This episode didn't air.

Linzi
January 23rd, 2007, 05:34 AM
This episode didn't air.
Yes, it did. There are spoilers in some threads for it.

silence
January 23rd, 2007, 06:06 AM
i am watching it.
can confirm.

seems like it will be pretty good....

vaberella
January 23rd, 2007, 06:16 AM
Long live the Queen is all I say....Long live the Queen.

I love you, Teyla--->:teyla: Marry me, I beg of you, marry me!! I can't wait to see this episode.


Rachel Luttrell has officially turned me!!

And she's moved from favorite character no.4 to fave character no.2, she managed to push Zelenka down to his current no.3 position. :D

rarocks24
January 23rd, 2007, 06:16 AM
i am watching it.
can confirm.

seems like it will be pretty good....

So, is it true, is there really a Wraith Queen in it?

vaberella
January 23rd, 2007, 06:21 AM
So, is it true, is there really a Wraith Queen in it?

Yes!! If it's true she takes over Teyla, that means TEYLA IS WRAITH QUEEN . [Insert Diety] She has become Wraith Teyla once more...bless her heart!!:teyla:

I love you, Teyla!:D

Ruined_puzzle
January 23rd, 2007, 06:33 AM
Does the lack of spoilers mean people gave up after Sunday. :|

I've seen a couple of spoilers on lj but nothing specific or really understandable.

Wormhole
January 23rd, 2007, 06:39 AM
If that's true, it might work in our favour and maybe the writers will reconsider, well one can hope;) . I've noticed the boards go a little quite recently.

sueKay
January 23rd, 2007, 06:43 AM
No mention of Carson?

You can accuse me of being a shallow, shrill lemming, but I won't be watching.

ata_beckett
January 23rd, 2007, 06:48 AM
No mention of Carson?

You can accuse me of being a shallow, shrill lemming, but I won't be watching.

I can ALMOST forgive no mention of Carson in Submersion, but

if there's no mention of Carson in Vengeance (what is supposed to be another Michael episode), then I will be seriously dissapointed with this show. Because that's just not believable.

silence
January 23rd, 2007, 07:04 AM
Pretty good ep. I liked it.
Finally... Teyla, speaking, kick ass (Ronon's), saving the day ...

And Weir was good in this one. Nicely done, seems like Ken C has a thing for writing Wraith episodes ...

sherryw
January 23rd, 2007, 07:05 AM
Pretty good ep. I liked it.
Finally... Teyla, speaking, kick ass (Ronon's), saving the day ...

And Weir was good in this one. Nicely done, seems like Ken C has a thing for writing Wraith episodes ...

Can you give more specifics?

silence
January 23rd, 2007, 07:10 AM
OK... quick recap ...

team goes to Ancient mining station, Teyla feels Wraith presence, they scan the station, find nothing, Teyla connects to Wraith Queen, she is taken over, kicks Ronon's ass unconcious, sets up traps... Queen SWIMS aboard to station from Wraith cruiser that is burried nearby (THIS Queen led FIRST attack on Atlantis 10000 years ago) ... and so on ...

Teyla is really great in this ep, she saves the day .. and it seems that Wraith cruiser isn't too damaged, maybe they'll salvage it (McKay says it is possible).

I won't tell ending ... too many people checking in this thread who didn't watch yet.


Better?

vaberella
January 23rd, 2007, 07:12 AM
Does the lack of spoilers mean people gave up after Sunday. :|

I've seen a couple of spoilers on lj but nothing specific or really understandable.

I doubt it...Submersion and Vengeance are the two eps we knew the least information about. While First Strike spoilers are everywhere, actually I've been on boards where FS is talked otu. Not only that, it seems some peopel are unsure if it even aired. But I can't wait to see it...Queen Teyla!


Hallowed is :teyla:

VB


OK... quick recap ...

team goes to Ancient mining station, Teyla feels Wraith presence, they scan the station, find nothing, Teyla connects to Wraith Queen, she is taken over, kicks Ronon's ass unconcious, sets up traps... Queen SWIMS aboard to station from Wraith cruiser that is burried nearby (THIS Queen led FIRST attack on Atlantis 10000 years ago) ... and so on ...

Teyla is really great in this ep, she saves the day .. and it seems that Wraith cruiser isn't too damaged, maybe they'll salvage it (McKay says it is possible).

I won't tell ending ... too many people checking in this thread who didn't watch yet.


Better?

Despite the fact your a lemmer ---> :D I love this thank you...I love my Queen, long live Teyla!!:teyla: :teyla: :teyla:

sherryw
January 23rd, 2007, 07:12 AM
OK... quick recap ...

team goes to Ancient mining station, Teyla feels Wraith presence, they scan the station, find nothing, Teyla connects to Wraith Queen, she is taken over, kicks Ronon's ass unconcious, sets up traps... Queen SWIMS aboard to station from Wraith cruiser that is burried nearby (THIS Queen led FIRST attack on Atlantis 10000 years ago) ... and so on ...

Teyla is really great in this ep, she saves the day .. and it seems that Wraith cruiser isn't too damaged, maybe they'll salvage it (McKay says it is possible).

I won't tell ending ... too many people checking in this thread who didn't watch yet.


Better?

Yes thank-you. It's appreciated. ;) :D

silence
January 23rd, 2007, 07:17 AM
oh... and you can see Carson in opening shots (they are about Teyla's ability to connect to Wraith, which is basis of whole episode). yes, he is there for a second or two, but we get to see his face and hear him (old scene, but still).

my personal opinion? anyone who liked Common Ground, will like this one too...
It's really great Wraith ep... Queen managed to control Teyla from cruiser 1km away from station, then swim to station when she set the stage ...

vpk
January 23rd, 2007, 07:24 AM
The team along with some scientists and Weir go to the bottom of the ocean to find an ancient drilling station. They hope that they will be able to repair it and use it to harvest geothermal energy. The problem is that a crashed Wraith cruiser is nearby with a queen aboard in hybernation and Teylas proximity wakes her up. She wants to get off the planet and therfor engages the selfdestruct on the cruiser to threaten the team. She is, however, tricked by Teyla to disable the selfdestruct (surprise :cameron: ). Now we've got a station capable of harvesting a great deal of energy and a moderately damaged Wraith cruiser, which according to McKay should be able to fly, unless it's not blown up or slamed into a Hive-ship (as Rodney points out).
Oh btw. great eppisode. Reminded me of one of the early episodes. Certrainly had a niche "underwaterish" threatening atmosphere to it.

g.o.d
January 23rd, 2007, 07:50 AM
God blees Ken Cuperus.It was an awesome episode.I would fire other scenarists and let Ken to write the whole fourth season.And I forgive him The Ark:)

localfocus
January 23rd, 2007, 07:53 AM
Sorry, my first post about this ep is a rant because it's the initial emotional reaction I had to this episode.

Begin Rant mode>>>
Must they revert McKay every time. Now they're on a kick where McKay acts like a jerk, people get killed, and McKay's 'growth' is he feels guilty and other people tell him how it's not his fault. Circles within circles. This and no mention of Carson. I understand that they're syndication, but if they have to hit the reset button, why do huge things like kill off a main? To increase the emotional effect of only one episode that isn't even a premiere or finale, seems like a waste. Sunday still would have been a good ep without the death. As sad as I was, I still thought that there would be follow though on this at least.
>>>End Rant Mode

There were good things in this ep, but this ep would have been much better off set before Sunday and Tao of Rodney.

SGFerrit
January 23rd, 2007, 07:58 AM
So, was it a good ep? Because alot of what I'm hearing is just people complaining that no one mentioned Carson?

silence
January 23rd, 2007, 07:59 AM
So, was it a good ep? Because alot of what I'm hearing is just people complaining that no one mentioned Carson?

very good. really.

FallenAngelII
January 23rd, 2007, 08:14 AM
Goof #1: At first, the force fields freeze people in their tracks and then throw them backwards (Ronon sure did a big leap backwards), as if electrocuted, but when Rodney and Radek put the force field up around the docking area, Rodney could touch it, he wasn't phazed at all.

Goof #2: Why would a Wraith Queen be leading a great fleet attacking Atlantis from a Wraith cruiser?!

Goof #3: Since when does Elizabeth ever call Rodney by McKay?

Goof #4: Why the Hell didn't the Queen kill Ronon when she was controlling Teyla? And why didn't she feed on Teyla when she got out of her restrains? Obvious "We can't kill our main characters" plot holes.

IWantToBelieve
January 23rd, 2007, 08:15 AM
I don't know, I liked Common Ground and Ark but didn't care much for this episode. The pacing was slow, the plot far too predictable and there was a painful lack of tension. Way too much time spent on unnecessary dialogue, it just felt off.

If there'd been some originality in the plot it might have been better, but as it was, nothing new in this episode at all. Boring.

Boesman
January 23rd, 2007, 08:29 AM
Yeah I agree not the best episode kind of reminded me of a game I played with almost the exact events, anyway I think we actually keep that cruiser for a while since they could have blown it up but didnt, however vengeance is next week so we probably lose it their

FallenAngelII
January 23rd, 2007, 08:39 AM
I don't know, I liked Common Ground and Ark but didn't care much for this episode. The pacing was slow, the plot far too predictable and there was a painful lack of tension. Way too much time spent on unnecessary dialogue, it just felt off.

If there'd been some originality in the plot it might have been better, but as it was, nothing new in this episode at all. Boring.
Pretty much everything was obvious to me except the fact of why she was there. Everything else was obvious.

And yeah, lack of tension. We knew they wouldn't all die. And we knew that once those red-shirt scientists were dead, no one else would die unless the Wraith queen randomly broke into the command room and fed on some randoms before getting shot.

Ruined_puzzle
January 23rd, 2007, 08:49 AM
Goof #3: Since when does Elizabeth ever call Rodney by McKay?


Seems that new writers seem to forget that they've known each other for 3 years and maybe more regarding Elizabeth and Rodney. I think this also happened in The Ark between Elizabeth and John.

IWantToBelieve
January 23rd, 2007, 08:56 AM
Yeah, when they sent the two scientists off it was like 'hello predictable red shirt'...and I had the same thought when Teyla downed Ronon. The queen might have let him live with the idea of eating him later but it might have lead to more realism to have her get ready to kill (ie aiming) and at least getting interrupted, same thing with Teyla at the end.

They wasted a wraith queen opportunity. She should've made tracks with shep, and then gone into a two parter or something...anything that would've been an unexpected twist. There was way too much time spent on telling Teyla 'this isn't your fault, no, you can't handle doing it again, blah blah blah'.

I think for the forcefield it has to do with force...running into it slams you back with the same degree of force, so just poking it won't do much.

Yet again TPTB portray the wraith as incredibly stupid. If she is such a bad ass, she would've disarmed it while holding Sheppard hostage to prevent a cross and you can't tell me she wouldn't have been able to consider it was a trap.

Echoes was an episode written with imagination. This was canned ABC plot.

Anjirika
January 23rd, 2007, 09:04 AM
I can ALMOST forgive no mention of Carson in Submersion, but

if there's no mention of Carson in Vengeance (what is supposed to be another Michael episode), then I will be seriously dissapointed with this show. Because that's just not believable.

I know, I mean the first episode after Daniel acended they mentioned him.....so I hope that TPTB were not completly stupid and don't mention our dear Carson at all...

Anjirika
January 23rd, 2007, 09:12 AM
As for the episode itself...well, I liked it. It wasn't an OMG WAITING WITH BAITED BREATH episode but it was still a good episode. I didn't like how they didn't mention Carson, especially with Teyla contacting the wraith, and I thought that their solution was a rip off from their solution in the return and I didn' t like how Elizabeth only called John Colonel and he only called her Elizabeth once...*sigh*... other than that- I give it a 7/10. Not bad, but not the best either.

FallenAngelII
January 23rd, 2007, 09:13 AM
Seems that new writers seem to forget that they've known each other for 3 years and maybe more regarding Elizabeth and Rodney. I think this also happened in The Ark between Elizabeth and John.
Elizabeth also called John "Sheppard" in this episode. Though she's called John "Sheppard" much more often than she calls Rodney "McKay" (in fact, I can't remember a single episode where she calls him "McKay").

I always assumed that she tried to keep John at a much more professional level while they were on missions, but she hasn't called him "Sheppard" for quite some time 'til "The Ark" either.

What are they, amnesiac? And don't they ever get people to proof-read their scripts?

About he whole "This just in: Teyla tricks Wraith Queen"-thing: I thought it was incredibly cheap. For one thing, it was predictable. Incredibly so.

For another, what's up with Teyla all of a sudden? She's supposedly weak, she let herself be overtaken twice when she knew she was wandering into a Wraith mind (apparentely that third time on whatever planet Ellia lived on taught her tons) yet she's able to trick a Wraith Queen (who's supposedly much stronger than her goons), a Queen who was able to force John to:
* Drop his gun
* Kneel
* Not speak
* Probably fly him out of there

How did she plant that false memory inside herself, anyway? Think really hard about it?

caty
January 23rd, 2007, 09:23 AM
This again...

Can we please stop bashing writers in the episode threads? *shakes head*

These few posts have reminded me as to why I don't like the ep threads at all.. Negativity much? Anyway, I won't waste my time and just say...


The episode rocked! Thanks, Ken for giving us another masterpiece of yours!!!!

Great tension, great lines, great portrayal of the queen!

Rudeljaeger
January 23rd, 2007, 09:25 AM
Goof #2: Why would a Wraith Queen be leading a great fleet attacking Atlantis from a Wraith cruiser?!




Today during combat the high-ranking officers are in fast APCs and not in big tanks. And dont forget the biggest target will alway draw the largest amount of the enemies attention.

Prior_of_the_Ori
January 23rd, 2007, 09:31 AM
Can't wait to watch it, glad to see that the Wraith return at last, made me think for a moment that we won't see them again this season.

rarocks24
January 23rd, 2007, 09:31 AM
Am I going to be the first one to say this is essentially a redux of an earlier episode?

There's a very simple solution, it was planned all along. That conversation actually happened, prior to Sheppard going over to the ship. The trap may have been set before. Too bad we didn't use a Wraith stunner instead. that would have been nice. Take her to some cozy little cell on Earth, dope her up, and interrogate her all night long.

As to why she bought into it so quickly, she was ecstatic, happy. Bouncing at the bit. She wanted the hell off there...a very good reason for skipping the chance for a meal.

@FallenAngelII: To explain the ship, there's no evidence to the contrary that all queens are on hive ships. There's also the fact that maybe her hive ship was destroyed earlier in the war? There are other reasons for it, perhaps she liked the captain of the cruiser? Or she was perhaps safer on a cruiser than on a hive ship...which is bigger, has a lot more weaponfire, and would just happen to be the first targets in any war.

I felt this episode was "The Defiant One" redux, which it basically was.

Anjirika
January 23rd, 2007, 09:33 AM
Something I've got to add- that one interaction between Elizabeth and John when she said

Elizabeth: Well, we have a lot of exploring to do.
John: We?
Elizabeth: Until Rodney delivers the preliminary status report, I'm all yours. Put me to work, colonel.
John: All right let's make up some time, break into teams, Ronon you're with Teyla, Elizabeth, you're with me, or... I'm with you, anyway you wanna put it.
Elizabeth: Either way or either way.

I mean, I don't like how she called him colonel- but it was a great flirting scene and being a Sparky shipper, I loved it- and it made the entire episode for me.

FallenAngelII
January 23rd, 2007, 09:38 AM
This again...

Can we please stop bashing writers in the episode threads? *shakes head*

These few posts have reminded me as to why I don't like the ep threads at all.. Negativity much? Anyway, I won't waste my time and just say...


The episode rocked! Thanks, Ken for giving us another masterpiece of yours!!!!

Great tension, great lines, great portrayal of the queen!
So it's OK to claim the writers are the best thing since sliced bread, but if we say anything negative about them, then we're bashers?

Especially when we're pointing out flaws that were easily spotted by viewers after only one viewing?


To explain the ship, there's no evidence to the contrary that all queens are on hive ships. There's also the fact that maybe her hive ship was destroyed earlier in the war? There are other reasons for it, perhaps she liked the captain of the cruiser? Or she was perhaps safer on a cruiser than on a hive ship...which is bigger, has a lot more weaponfire, and would just happen to be the first targets in any war.

I felt this episode was "The Defiant One" redux, which it basically was.
Queens... they lead an entire army. From their Hives (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Beehive_%28beekeeping%29). The Wraith culture is based on insect culture.

She was leading the strike. Why would they elect a Queen who'd already lost her hive ship leader of the first strike on Atlantis?! Unless we're, of course, once more dumbing them down.

The whole "Maybe it's safer on cruisers"-argument I can buy, though.

But then the Wraith don't seem to have to feed that often if a cruiser could fit enough people to sustain a Wraith (and the last ones she feeds on had to have been sustained as well) for 10,000 years.

By the way, even if the conversation in Teyla's mind really did happen earlier, I doubt they planned the entire thing. Why? Because Teyla and Elizabeth had a little chat where Elizabeth told Teyla to not try the whole "I'll-might-show-you-mine-if-you-show-me-yours"-thing in a hallway out of earshot from where the Queen was being held.

What, they wanted to make the Queen think Teyla was going against Elizabeth's wishes but they do it down the hall where she might not actually hear them?

IWantToBelieve
January 23rd, 2007, 09:42 AM
Yes, I agree. It's not bashing to discuss the flaws you see in an episode. I understand the frustration in seeing an episode you enjoy trashed, and I know there's negativity in GW a lot lately, but there's a source for it. It's a symptom.

I don't feel this was a well written episode. I like Ken, I liked CG a great deal. I also enjoyed Ark, although I felt it too was missing an edge but overall my love for the details was more than my issues with the lack of tension. But this episode is 'been there, done that'...there just wasn't anything new.

I like how rarocks put it. This was essentially The Defiant One, redux, complete with the two red shirt scientists. Frustrating.

female Wraith
January 23rd, 2007, 09:43 AM
Well...I watched it. Hmmmm....

- I didn't understand why a Queen will be leading the big Alliance of many Hives on the board of a cruiser?!?!?!
- Also I didn't understand how is possible she to be so weak and tricked by Teyla but strong enough to swim to her ship and disable the self-destruction device.
- I also didn't understand why they didn't try to make a deal with her??? Everything we see was "Ronnon's grining smile and watch my gun". Very distasteful.
- And I really didn't understand did they kill her or not. I really hope she will survive and we will see her in First Strike or Vengeance.

May be am just a lemming who doesn't understand many things! LOL

I really liked her dress and her hair' and arm' decorations. :)

Mitchell82
January 23rd, 2007, 09:51 AM
Nice ep. It was nice to see the Wraith back again and in great form. Great team interaction especially Teyla and Weir. Loved the "romantic" inuendos between John and Elizabeth. Teyla did a great job as usual. Only thing I missed was no mention of Carson. 8/10 simply b/c Carson wasnt mentiond.

rarocks24
January 23rd, 2007, 09:52 AM
So it's OK to claim the writers are the best thing since sliced bread, but if we say anything negative about them, then we're bashers?

Especially when we're pointing out flaws that were easily spotted by viewers after only one viewing?


Queens... they lead an entire army. From their Hives (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Beehive_%28beekeeping%29). The Wraith culture is based on insect culture.

She was leading the strike. Why would they elect a Queen who'd already lost her hive ship leader of the first strike on Atlantis?! Unless we're, of course, once more dumbing them down.

The whole "Maybe it's safer on cruisers"-argument I can buy, though.

But then the Wraith don't seem to have to feed that often if a cruiser could fit enough people to sustain a Wraith (and the last ones she feeds on had to have been sustained as well) for 10,000 years.

By the way, even if the conversation in Teyla's mind really did happen earlier, I doubt they planned the entire thing. Why? Because Teyla and Elizabeth had a little chat where Elizabeth told Teyla to not try the whole "I'll-might-show-you-mine-if-you-show-me-yours"-thing in a hallway out of earshot from where the Queen was being held.

What, they wanted to make the Queen think Teyla was going against Elizabeth's wishes but they do it down the hall where she might not actually hear them?
I was merely throwing out possibilities. I do understand insect colony culture, thank you very much. You should also know Queens do leave their hives. :rolleyes:

Oh, and during a time of war, it's quite possible that they'd be permanently (queens) based on cruisers, as the primary targets would be hive ships. The fact that her ship was largely salvageable seems to suggest her ship was a secondary target the Ancients just got lucky on. Too bad for us. As it was also said, she was queen of a great alliance, suggesting she had many several hives at the time.

On another note, I'd have to say she was perhaps the ugliest Wraith Queen we've seen. Perhaps it had more to do with her outfit than her actual appearance...she still had makeup on after swimming out in the ocean, i doubt eyeliner and mascara could survive that. Worst of all was her outfit, it was just plain gross and looked a bit like something Adria wore and was modified. Perhaps she lacked her companion queens' sense of style.

We're presuming that a Queen is smarter than humans. Keeping well in mind we've pulled a few things out of thin air and had the Wraith by into it, too. The Wraith are hungry, not smart. The Ancients were smart, but arrogant, too arrogant.

FallenAngelII
January 23rd, 2007, 09:52 AM
- I also didn't understand why they didn't try to make a deal with her??? Everything we see was "Ronnon's grining smile and watch my gun". Very distasteful.
Yeah, that bugged me too. Why didn't they even once think of making a deal with her? What, she fed off two of their people so now she has to die even if that means they all die?

It seems like the Atlantis expedition harbour an extreme hatred for the Wraith (all Wraith). They won't make a deal with any of them (except John) and they'll force-feed them the retrovirus even when they've helped save all of Earth.

OK, I just noticed something insultive to the woman who played the Wraith Queen (Andee Frizzell). She wasn't credited as a Guest Star (as in: Her name wasn't among the names listed right after the opening sequence finished playing). The only Guestar Star listed was David Nykl (Radek Zelenka).

In fact, that's also insulting to the two Red Shirt scientists. They both got quite a few lines and a lot of screen time. But it's the most insultive to Andee.

By the way, just so you know, all Wraith queens have been played by the same woman; Andee Frizzell. In fact, she also played the Keeper in "Rising".

The thing with the Wraith is that they're kinda psychic... especially when mind-melding with Teyla. The Asurans just probe your mind for info. The Wraith read your mind, your superficial thoughts, whatever. For one thing, the Queen knew Teyla was keeping something from her. Yet, he can't tell when she's hiding something as big as their plan to kill her?

Stupidity, yes, but do we have to dumb them down to the level of Skiffy?

rarocks24
January 23rd, 2007, 10:00 AM
Well...I watched it. Hmmmm....

- I didn't understand why a Queen will be leading the big Alliance of many Hives on the board of a cruiser?!?!?!
- Also I didn't understand how is possible she to be so weak and tricked by Teyla but strong enough to swim to her ship and disable the self-destruction device.
- I also didn't understand why they didn't try to make a deal with her??? Everything we see was "Ronnon's grining smile and watch my gun". Very distasteful.
- And I really didn't understand did they kill her or not. I really hope she will survive and we will see her in First Strike or Vengeance.

May be am just a lemming who doesn't understand many things! LOL

I really liked her dress and her hair' and arm' decorations. :)
Actually, I think the deal was implied otherwise she'd had been dead already. Why keep her alive, they really had no reason to...though it's better they did...

female Wraith
January 23rd, 2007, 10:02 AM
Yeah, that bugged me too. Why didn't they even once think of making a deal with her? What, she fed off two of their people so now she has to die even if that means they all die?

It seems like the Atlantis expedition harbour an extreme hatred for the Wraith (all Wraith). They won't make a deal with any of them (except John) and they'll force-feed them the retrovirus even when they've helped save all of Earth.

OK, I just noticed something insultive to the woman who played the Wraith Queen (Andee Frizzell). She wasn't credited as a Guest Star (as in: Her name wasn't among the names listed right after the opening sequence finished playing). The only Guestar Star listed was David Nykl (Radek Zelenka).

In fact, that's also insulting to the two Red Shirt scientists. They both got quite a few lines and a lot of screen time. But it's the most insultive to Andee.

By the way, just so you know, all Wraith queens have been played by the same woman; Andee Frizzell. In fact, she also played the Keeper in "Rising".

Exactly! If they have tried to make a deal with her it will be much better. If they helped her return this only will increased the civil war between the Wraith Hives and will give Atlantis more freedom from the Wraith.

The name of Andy Frizzel is not in the Guest stars??? I didn't notice. This is really an insult not only for her but for all fans of Stargate Atlantis!!!!!!!!!!

Lightning
January 23rd, 2007, 10:04 AM
Worst of all was her outfit, it was just plain gross and looked a bit like something Adria wore and was modified. Perhaps she lacked her companion queens' sense of style.

Give the lady a break, she's been underwater for 10,000 years. I cant imagine she was able to keep up with the latest trends in Wraith fashion.
I hear Hive Fashion Week is a very exclusive event these days.

Pitry
January 23rd, 2007, 10:04 AM
God, what a shockingly bad episode. Sigh.

First, the distinct feeling of Somewhere in the Beginning of Season 1.... Hey, we've managed to see the Wraith before without repeating this nonsense, what in the world made them go back to that? I thought after Michael and Common Ground SGA finally learned to deal with its bad guys in a sensible, jjust a tad bit more 3d way... but no. Back to silly Wraith queens trying to be scary.

It jsut didn't work for me. The entire concept, the entire backsell at the end - there's using it as a story device and then there's over doing it and in bad taste and that's basically what happened here.

I hope this episode was supposed to be 17 and Sunday 18. Or that it's a one time glitch. I certainly hope this complete adn utter lack of mention of a main hcaracter who just died an episode before isn't a sign to what's gonna happen in next seasons. Hell... Line in the Sand spoilers In SG1 Daniel is gone for two episodes and they find the palce to insert a line about it. Putting them all in a tad bit of depression or at least saying something couldn't have been that ghard, could it? the only good thign I could thinkof of Carson's death is if they're going to use it and its impact on the rest of the characters. If they're not going to do that, why bother?

Teyla... once again, they've fallen to the exact same trap they did with Ronon. It's not development if she stays inside her box, even if they do give her - finally, this season! - something to do. It's only development if she's forced out of her box. Much like Ronon didn't really gain anything to his character in Sateda, Teyla is still the exact same person she was before Submersion. Sorry, they're goin to have to do ebtter than that. Where's Teyla's equivalent of Tao of Rodney? of Common Ground? Of Phantoms or the Real World? Even in Sunday we hardly got to see anything.

Erm, good parts: Elizabeth. Sh got to play a bit with Teyla and banter a bit with Sheppard. Zelenca not knowing what was going on around him was also lovely. he does it so well. Didn't even get exxcited about Rodney this episode, he wasn;t his funny usual self.

Where's the season 3 I've learned to love so much? Hoping for ebtter luck next week.

female Wraith
January 23rd, 2007, 10:05 AM
Actually, I think the deal was implied otherwise she'd had been dead already. Why keep her alive, they really had no reason to...though it's better they did...

I don't think so. They obviously kept her alive only because they belived they will got any information.

caty
January 23rd, 2007, 10:10 AM
Yes, I agree. It's not bashing to discuss the flaws you see in an episode. I understand the frustration in seeing an episode you enjoy trashed, and I know there's negativity in GW a lot lately, but there's a source for it. It's a symptom.

I don't feel this was a well written episode. I like Ken, I liked CG a great deal. I also enjoyed Ark, although I felt it too was missing an edge but overall my love for the details was more than my issues with the lack of tension. But this episode is 'been there, done that'...there just wasn't anything new.

I like how rarocks put it. This was essentially The Defiant One, redux, complete with the two red shirt scientists. Frustrating.

I didn't say it was... And I'm not frustrated to see this episode thrashed, I could care less to be honest. ;)

But calling ideas of writers "cheap" and epsecially calling them "amnesiac" is bashing in my opinion. A little respect could be in order.

EDIT: IWTB, you know me well enough to know that I wasn't talking about you, just to get this straight...

Celcool
January 23rd, 2007, 10:11 AM
Something I've got to add- that one interaction between Elizabeth and John when she said

Elizabeth: Well, we have a lot of exploring to do.
John: We?
Elizabeth: Until Rodney delivers the preliminary status report, I'm all yours. Put me to work, colonel.
John: All right let's make up some time, break into teams, Ronon you're with Teyla, Elizabeth, you're with me, or... I'm with you, anyway you wanna put it.
Elizabeth: Either way or either way.

I mean, I don't like how she called him colonel- but it was a great flirting scene and being a Sparky shipper, I loved it- and it made the entire episode for me.
For me too, this was the best part for a Sparky shipper. :D I thought she called him colonel for the sake of flirting, she put herself under his command so to say.



Nice ep. It was nice to see the Wraith back again and in great form. Great team interaction especially Teyla and Weir. Loved the "romantic" inuendos between John and Elizabeth. Teyla did a great job as usual. Only thing I missed was no mention of Carson. 8/10 simply b/c Carson wasnt mentiond.
More of us saw that, yeah, John and Elizabeth still got it. :) About Teyla, I loved her being under the influence of the wraith as I did in season 1 and 2. Rachel does a great job.


Give the lady a break, she's been underwater for 10,000 years. I cant imagine she was able to keep up with the latest trends in Wraith fashion.
I hear Hive Fashion Week is a very exclusive event these days.
ROTFL!

ata_beckett
January 23rd, 2007, 10:13 AM
Meh.

Decent episode...nothing to write home about. But I think they've set their bar pretty high now, considering how good "Sunday" was. I'm glad to see the wraith back in the picture (*cough* too bad they lost their expert on wraith physiology *cough*), and god, I hope that this new little underground station doesn't get destroyed. (let's take bets on how many episodes it lasts!)

I'm not TERRIBLY upset about the lack of a Carson mention, but if it's nonexistant next week, THEN I'll complain.

6-7/10

LoveConquers
January 23rd, 2007, 10:17 AM
Since a lot of people are asking, here's a more detailed summary. I posted this in the J/T thread, so my apologies for the repost. I'll put it in spoilers because of that.

Opens with the team, Elizabeth, Zalenka, and several others crammed into a jumper that is flying underwater. They are looking for an Ancient underwater outpost that had been used to drill into the planet's crust, looking for a power source. Rodney has pinpointed the area it's located, but it's still taking them hours to find it and they're all getting on each other's nerves. Teyla comes forward from the back and taps Rodney and calls "shotgun." He reluctantly trades places with her and she sits in the seat behind John. The others bicker some more and John jokingly asks if he'll have to pull over.
They find the outpost and dock. Rodney gets the power turned on in no time and they begin to explore. Teyla suddenly stops in her tracks, telling them she senses a wraith. They question her, but John and Ronon trust her and order everyone back to the main control room. Rodney tells them it's impossible for a wraith to be there since nothing shows up on the sensors. Teyla is sure and suggests she try mind connecting with the wraith. If there is one, she'll be able to tell for sure and if not, then there will be no one to connect with.

Teyla sits in a meditation position, John whispers to Ronon to have his gun on stun just in case. Teyla gives him a look, partially at his words and mostly for interrupting her concentration. He mutters, "sorry." LOL! She seems to connect, but then opens her eyes, saying there was no one there.

Elizabeth wants to continue exploring and wants to be included. John tells Ronon and Teyla to go one direction while he and Elizabeth go another.

Ronon comments to Teyla that she is being very quiet. She walks up to him and puts her hand on his shoulder, telling him his friendship is very important to her. He looks at her in confusion when she suddenly lashes out, knocking him out and kicking him several times as he's laying on the ground.

Somewhere in all this, a lone figure is seen swimming towards the outpost and then another shot of a wraith female popping her head above water in some kind of underwater entrance to the outpost.

Teyla runs up to a console and starts to sabotage the outpost. Lights go out and force fields activate, trapping people in various sections. John gets suspicious when he can't reach Teyla and Ronon. They search and find Ronon unconscious, he tells them Teyla attacked him. John sends Elizabeth back with Rodney while he and Ronon search for Teyla.

At the console, Teyla comes to and turns with her gun pointed to suddenly find John and Ronon pointing their guns at her.

Teyla, gasping, confused, holding her gun.
John, "Drop it."
She drops it immediately, gasping again. "John?" She falls heavily against the console as though her knees gave out.
John, "What the hell's going on?"
Teyla, "I do not know."

Rodney and the others keep on working trying to restore the damage Teyla did to the station. John radios and tells them Teyla has no memory of what happened to her. They meet in crew quarters. Teyla stands when Elizabeth walks in, apologizing. She remembers connecting with a wraith and then her next memory is them holding their guns on her. She tells them it's a wraith queen. John says he hates queens. They want to go find her. Teyla wants to help, but Elizabeth says no.

Two scientists are working in a hall. One goes back to the jumper and finds a puddle of water. He comes face to face with the wraith.

Rodney and Zalenka are still working. Elizabeth and Teyla wait in the crew quarters while John and Ronon search. Teyla is upset by what happened, Elizabeth tells her it's not her fault, but that it's too risky for her to be out looking. Teyla is confident the wraith could only control her because she opened her mind to it and that it can't happen at any other time. She has difficulty just sitting and waiting.

John and Ronon search the halls.

The other scientist in the hallway comes face to face with the wraith and manages to call for help. John hears the cry, but doesn't know who it is or the location. He tells Rodney to get the force fields down. Teyla warns them that the wraith prescence is stronger now. The man calls for help again, but John and Ronon are separated from him by the force fields. Rodney finally gets them down, but they are too late and find the scientists dead. John finds the one in the jumper while Ronon went after the other one. John suddenly goes quiet over radio. He turns and see the queen right behind him. She forces him to his knees and tells him he will fly her back to the surface. The others call for him over radio, but he doesn't answer. Ronon suddenly appears and shoots out the jumper window behind John and they are flooded with water. The force of the water knocks the queen away. John and Ronon crawl to their feet and see her lying unconscious. John tells Ronon not to kill her since they lost the jumper and communication with Atlantis, so wants to see if she can help them.

The wraith awakes strapped down to a table and they try to interrogate her. Of course they get nowhere. she tells them they are all about to die.

Rodney and the scientists discover a wraith cruiser underwater a little ways from the station and figure out that she swam from the cruiser to the outpost. They are astonished the pressure from that depth didn't kill her.

Teyla wants to try to connect again, to find out what the queen knows. She says she knows what to expect this time and the wraith is heavily sedated. She tells them to stun her if she doesn't seem like herself. She connects to the wraith and sees her leading an attack against the war with the Ancients, they crashed into the ocean, she fed on her own crew to survive and slept for centuries, waiting for rescue, awoke when she sensed their presence and knew they had a ship. She swam over, but couldn't fly the jumper. Teyla suddenly gasps and says, "You are all about to die."
John, "That doesn't sound like Teyla."
They aim their guns, but she tells them to wait. She searches deeper and tells them the wraith set the self destruct on the cruiser.

Rodney and Zalenka tells them that the detonation in the location it's on would be disastrous and would hit the city as well. Rodney remembers seeing dive suits in the database, so he and John find them and suit up to get to the cruiser. Rodney is less than thrilled and a bit panicked at being underwater at that depth with that much pressure.

Teyla wants to try again to connect. The queen tells her she is weak. Teyla says, "We shall see who's stronger."

John and Rodney get to the cruiser and Rodney says it's remarkably preserved and he may be able to salvage it. They search for the self destruct.

Teyla gasps and grabs her head. The wraith tells her she is weakening and that she could have crushed her with a single time. Elizabeth won't let her try again.

John and Rodney find the control console for the self destruct, but don't have the command code to turn it off. John radios and tells them they need the code.

Teyla wants to connect to get the code, but Elizabeth says no. Teyla walks into the room where Ronon is watching the queen and tells him there is an emergency and is help is needed. He leaves and she connects again with the queen. Teyla then reaches over and unties the queen and lets her go. The queen raises her hand to feed, but pauses, says Teyla is trying to hide something. She searches her and sees John and Elizabeth telling Teyla that the ship is salvageable and that John thinks he can fly it the surface before it explodes. The wraith smiles as Teyla falls unconscious to the ground.

The queen shows up on the cruiser and finds John at the console trying to start it up to fly. She turns off the self destruct and then Rodney suddenly shoots her and they reveal it was their plan all along, to bait her.

They gather again in the crew quarters of the outpost. Elizabeth and Teyla have their vests off, Ronon takes off his belt and lays down on one of the bunks. John also sits in one of the bunks. They comment on how strong Teyla was to trick a wraith like she did. She says it was because there were so many lives at risk. Rodney comes in, eager to get to work on the outpost and tells them Zalenka restored communication and another jumper is on its way. Elizabeth joins him, also eager. The others remain behind.

Ronon, laying down on his stomach. "Is he serious?"
John, now with his vest off as well, looks like he's untying his boots or something. "Yeah, he is."
Teyla, "Well, I for one intend to spend the next little while resting." She grabs her jacket to use as a pillow and also lays down. The camera cuts away from her to Ronon and then John.
Ronon, "Same here."
John, "Same here," as he also lays down on his back and the camera fades to black.



Nice ep!!! A little slower than I thought it would be, but I still enjoyed it overall. Loved all the Teyla moments, she had lots of screen time in this one!! And loved the attention back on her wraith DNA. We didn't really learn anything new about her abilities as I had hoped, but it was nice to see them being used again. I suppose the one thing we did learn was that they for sure cannot take over her unless she connects first. We also learn that she can be very strong when needed and there are possibilities of her further strengthening her gift.
Overall, a nice classic mission ep with a wraith baddie and a happy ending!

FallenAngelII
January 23rd, 2007, 10:20 AM
I didn't say it was... And I'm not frustrated to see this episode thrashed, I could care less to be honest. ;)

But calling ideas of writers "cheap" and epsecially calling them "amnesiac" is bashing in my opinion. A little respect could be in order.

EDIT: IWTB, you know me well enough to know that I wasn't talking about you, just to get this straight...
What, if I call something "cheap", I'm insulting the person who came up with it? And bashing them, too?

I'm a Rodney-type. I don't sugar coat things. I don't lie about my opinions on things. I speak my mind.

"Common Ground" was brilliant. I said so... very loudly. And repeatedly.

This episode had some bad writing. I'm saying it. Why? Because it's true and it's important that we discuss said writing so that we'll find out more about it (more bad stuff, more good stuff, whatever). And if the writers even wind up in here reading these threads (because apparentely they do), they might see that we do notice screw-ups and try to avoid them.

To constantly applaud them for everything and never criticizing them besides using words like "I didn't like the fact that" might lull them in a sense that everything they're doing is just fine.

What else should I have called the ending? "Not good"? Because "Badly written" would've been offensive too (according to some). They really must be amnesiac (that or Elizabeth is) if they're making Elizabeth call Rodney and John McKay... in the same episode.

Lightning
January 23rd, 2007, 10:24 AM
I have a question since this wont be on sky for a while
does this mean that Atlantis is now fully powered and doesntn eed to worry about ZPMs as much?

sgeureka
January 23rd, 2007, 10:29 AM
Okay, I come here without having read all the other posts.

The episode was a little better than average. The beginning was very strong, so was the end, but the middle was kind of hu-hum.

Gracen - Gradon, Davidson - Dickinson -- LOL. I wondered all the time whether those characters were having a nice introduction here so that they could be used in later episodes, or whether they were just red shirts. I would have loved to keep both of those characters.

Visually, this episode had something to offer. The wraith make-up and the costume were very well done. The swimming pool area looked great also. My favorite shots:

http://i52.photobucket.com/albums/g36/sgeureka/stuff/sga_318_water_shield.jpg
http://i52.photobucket.com/albums/g36/sgeureka/stuff/sga_318_wraith_closeup.jpg

There were also OMG moments that I didn't expect:
- Ronon shooting the windshield of the PJ
- the return of the Wraith shadows
- the tie-in of the Ancient war (Yeah! absolute goosepimple moment)

And I would have liked to see some Wraith corpses. Probably too expensive.

But up until the very end (goodnight BTW :)), I was thinking what a security risk Teyla was to the mission. If there should ever be an Atlantis episode from the perspective of the Wraith (although i doubt it), those creatures would simply invade Teyla's mind and overthrow the Atlantis mission from within. Yes, so far, the Atlantis mission could use Teyla's Wraith-linking mind to their advantage, but this episode along with The Gift (or was it The Siege) and Michael have clearly shown that whenever the Wraiths show up, Teyla should be guarded by several people as well.

I give this episode a 7 out of 10.

FoolishPleasure
January 23rd, 2007, 10:31 AM
The name of Andy Frizzel is not in the Guest stars??? I didn't notice. This is really an insult not only for her but for all fans of Stargate Atlantis!!!!!!!!!!

TPTB will sometimes leave the name of recurring guest stars out of the opening credits for shock value in the episode. If you saw Andy's name, you would know a Wraith would show up. Removing her name takes the audience by surprise. Chris Carter did this sometimes on X-Files, especially when the evil Krychek became popular and his unexpected appearance would be a great zinger, but CC did say later that it was okayed by Nicholas Lea beforehand. I'm sure Andy's agent was aware of it, and gave the "okay".

ata_beckett
January 23rd, 2007, 10:32 AM
Okay, I come here without having read all the other posts.

The episode was a little better than average. The beginning was very strong, so was the end, but the middle was kind of hu-hum.

Gracen - Gradon, Davidson - Dickinson -- LOL. I wondered all the time whether those characters were having a nice introduction here so that they could be used in later episodes, or whether they were just red shirts. I would have loved to keep both of those characters.




HAAA. I spent the first half of the episode waiting to see when they would die.:D

female Wraith
January 23rd, 2007, 10:38 AM
BTW I realized that the theory about salt water and it's use as a weapon against the Wraith was submerged with this episode:)))

female Wraith
January 23rd, 2007, 10:38 AM
TPTB will sometimes leave the name of recurring guest stars out of the opening credits for shock value in the episode. If you saw Andy's name, you would know a Wraith would show up. Removing her name takes the audience by surprise. Chris Carter did this sometimes on X-Files, especially when the evil Krychek became popular and his unexpected appearance would be a great zinger, but CC did say later that it was okayed by Nicholas Lea beforehand. I'm sure Andy's agent was aware of it, and gave the "okay".

May be you are right.

Pitry
January 23rd, 2007, 10:43 AM
What, if I call something "cheap", I'm insulting the person who came up with it? And bashing them, too?

I'm a Rodney-type. I don't sugar coat things. I don't lie about my opinions on things. I speak my mind.

"Common Ground" was brilliant. I said so... very loudly. And repeatedly.

This episode had some bad writing. I'm saying it. Why? Because it's true and it's important that we discuss said writing so that we'll find out more about it (more bad stuff, more good stuff, whatever). And if the writers even wind up in here reading these threads (because apparentely they do), they might see that we do notice screw-ups and try to avoid them.

To constantly applaud them for everything and never criticizing them besides using words like "I didn't like the fact that" might lull them in a sense that everything they're doing is just fine.

What else should I have called the ending? "Not good"? Because "Badly written" would've been offensive too (according to some). They really must be amnesiac (that or Elizabeth is) if they're making Elizabeth call Rodney and John McKay... in the same episode.

Don't think it was badly written as much as it was a bad concept. Given the show's history there's only as much they could do and as specific places they coudl go - don't get me wrong, there were definitely writing glitches in this one.... but they should have given up the idea in the first place. Some stories just don't work - this was one of the. It reminded me of Rising - and that's definitely not a compliment. These thigns didn't work in season 1 - why should they in season three?

silence
January 23rd, 2007, 10:53 AM
About why she was on cruiser?

Lemme see.... she was leading assault on Atlantis (they didn't say she did it in a cruiser, just that she is the one who did it). She comes over Atlantis in her Hive. Ancients indentify leading ship, turn all their firepower on it .... shoot down the Hive, Queen escapes to cruiser, Ancients keep firing, seeing that leader of assault is on cruiser now... hit cruiser, cruiser crashes.

End of problem.

I think it's really nitpicking discussing why she was on cruiser. It wasn't said she led the assault in cruiser. And i simply don't see how this episode would work at all if that was Hive down there .. so they made it a cruiser. Which is (as McKay says) in pretty good shape and we might add it to the fleet at some point.

Also, keeping this Queen alive.. what would be point? what kind of information she might have? 10000 years old Wraith gossip?
One other thing, she was down there for 10000 years, feeding on her own crew, maybe that doesn't make her great candidate for keeping her around and also might have influenced her mind .... no Wraith or any other creature would keep his / her mind in such conditions, so she is maybe more of the S1 Wraith, then 3d ones we got in CG or Michael ...
Think about that for a second.


I liked this episode. Wraith are back and i like them much more then rehashed replicators.

silence
January 23rd, 2007, 10:58 AM
TPTB will sometimes leave the name of recurring guest stars out of the opening credits for shock value in the episode. If you saw Andy's name, you would know a Wraith would show up. Removing her name takes the audience by surprise. Chris Carter did this sometimes on X-Files, especially when the evil Krychek became popular and his unexpected appearance would be a great zinger, but CC did say later that it was okayed by Nicholas Lea beforehand. I'm sure Andy's agent was aware of it, and gave the "okay".

Exactly ... and all spoilers were mentioning "unexpected guest" they will meet in this episode and as far as i remember NOONE suggested Wraith in any topics that discussed who that might be ... blah, my idea was that whales might project something Ancients put in their genetic memory ...

So, yes, having her name posted would suggest Wraith Queen.

FallenAngelII
January 23rd, 2007, 10:59 AM
BTW I realized that the theory about salt water and it's use as a weapon against the Wraith was submerged with this episode:)))
I thought about this, too. I always created a thread about it :D. People were so set on that (IMO preposterous) idea.

lunarleviathan
January 23rd, 2007, 11:01 AM
This was a so-so episode. Nothing to flashy or original but it held together well. Enjoyed it.

Celcool
January 23rd, 2007, 11:03 AM
I liked this episode. Wraith are back and i like them much more then rehashed replicators.
Give me the Wraith over replicators any time.

The episode was nothing special really. The first part of season 3 was way better for me.

FallenAngelII
January 23rd, 2007, 11:06 AM
Also, keeping this Queen alive.. what would be point? what kind of information she might have? 10000 years old Wraith gossip?
One other thing, she was down there for 10000 years, feeding on her own crew, maybe that doesn't make her great candidate for keeping her around and also might have influenced her mind .... no Wraith or any other creature would keep his / her mind in such conditions, so she is maybe more of the S1 Wraith, then 3d ones we got in CG or Michael ...
Think about that for a second.


I liked this episode. Wraith are back and i like them much more then rehashed replicators.
It's not as much about keeping her alive their unwillingness to even consider making a deal with her that if she helped them all live, they'd let her go.

Such a deal would be reasonable considering they were all about to die.

silence
January 23rd, 2007, 11:11 AM
It's not as much about keeping her alive their unwillingness to even consider making a deal with her that if she helped them all live, they'd let her go.

Such a deal would be reasonable considering they were all about to die.

And why should we expect her to be willing to do that deal? I don't recall her making any offers (ya, i know TPTB wrote it that way).

How can we know what is mind of someone who was trapped for 10000 years on the bottom of the ocean ... sure, she wanted to get away, but how much? After her plan failed, maybe she just gave up .. until she saw that planted memory?

And by the way ... what kind of deal was possible? She KNEW they will all blow up and that there is no ship capable of taking them out.

What exactly would you offer her in that situation?

FallenAngelII
January 23rd, 2007, 11:16 AM
And why should we expect her to be willing to do that deal? I don't recall her making any offers (ya, i know TPTB wrote it that way).

How can we know what is mind of someone who was trapped for 10000 years on the bottom of the ocean ... sure, she wanted to get away, but how much? After her plan failed, maybe she just gave up .. until she saw that planted memory?

And by the way ... what kind of deal was possible? She KNEW they will all blow up and that there is no ship capable of taking them out.

What exactly would you offer her in that situation?
She's a Wraith. Who waged war on Atlantis. Her mind is set on war and whatnot.

But at the same time she wants to live. She only set her ship to self-destruct after finding out people were approaching (a.k.a. a way out). Of course she might be a bit out of it, but they could at least have made the offer!

They were in grave danger, about to die in less than two hours but they decide to not even offer, even after discovering the lock on the command console. Smart people offer trades.

She was a captive of people who seemed to Lanteans. Maybe she didn't expect them to let her go once they got out of there (can you imagine the Ancients doing that?). So she decided to just watch them suffer knowing they were doomed.

If they offered to not only let her live should they get out of there but also to let her go free, she probably would've agreed.

All in all, who knows why she didn't offer. Maybe she had her Queen pride. I mean, she's a Queen. She can't run off begging for her life to a bunch of humans.

sgeureka
January 23rd, 2007, 11:25 AM
BTW I realized that the theory about salt water and it's use as a weapon against the Wraith was submerged with this episode:)))Or (I'm only thinking about it now...) only the Wraith Queens are not "allergic" to salt water, and the normal Wraith warriors are.

[crickets]

Yeah, what a sorry attempt to keep the old theory alive... :)

silence
January 23rd, 2007, 11:28 AM
Exactly .. neither she, nor team offered. Each had it's own reasons.
We can't tell. Anyway, i am off to watch again ... Teyla kicking the xxxx out of Ronon is my fav scene ... "i wouldn't do anything to hurt you"*SMACK!!!!!* :D

rarocks24
January 23rd, 2007, 11:28 AM
I don't think so. They obviously kept her alive only because they belived they will got any information.

What kind of information were they going to get? At the time, they only knew her, and it was believed she was on the station originally (she had somehow gotten trapped). The way it was established, the Wraith Queen was probably going to be a prisoner anyways (why should a queen give up information if she knows she's going to die?). Dr Weir established they hadn't intended on killing her by saying that her refusal to give up information will kill not only herself ( the queen) and the Atlantis expedition. The Queen was going to be allowed to live (and do you really think Atlantis would have killed her, especially after finding out who she was?). Had she given the information up, she would have been allowed to live for the sole purpose of interrogation alone.

I believe if Mckay had his trusty Ancient/Wraith/Earth/Goa'uld tech tablet pc on him he could have brute forced the code. The code only had six digits, making it easily crackable. To illustrate this, WEP is extraordinarily vulnerable to cracking, and it's 8-10 digits long. The Queen was going to live, had she not threatened Sheppard, she might have lived. But then again, she was trapped under the ocean for 10,000 years. We're trusting her to be sane.

Her return to power, what power? Her return would have caused nothing but would've revealed Atlantis to the Wraith, once again. Something we could not afford. I'm surprised she didn't try to send off a subspace communication, particularly if her ship had breathable atmosphere on it. And it obviously had enough power if it was about to self-destruct and sustained her for 10,000 years. I do wish we'd have seen Andee in the credits though. I think it was perhaps Andee's best performance to date (and the most lines). That's assuming that's Andee, though the voice certainly sounded like hers.

I guess this rules out that Queens have their hair whiten after awhile. I'm surprised however there wasn't a mutiny, considering the circumstances. Though her admission that she was the Queen of a great alliance suggests that their organization as insect colonies are not as strong as we had predicted...for all we know she could be related to the uber-wraith (that hive didn't have a queen that we knew of).

female Wraith
January 23rd, 2007, 11:28 AM
Or (I'm only thinking about it now...) only the Wraith Queens are not "allergic" to salt water, and the normal Wraith warriors are.

[crickets]

Yeah, what a sorry attempt to keep the old theory alive... :)

LOL. I doubt it.

FallenAngelII
January 23rd, 2007, 11:32 AM
Exactly .. neither she, nor team offered. Each had it's own reasons.
We can't tell. Anyway, i am off to watch again ... Teyla kicking the xxxx out of Ronon is my fav scene ... "i wouldn't do anything to hurt you"*SMACK!!!!!* :D
I think "Michael" and "Misbegotten" proved that they don't really like the Wraith, at all, consider them all to be evil and don't want to release them once they've captured them.

Michael was force-fed the drug after he had helped save all of Earth and quite a few of their people. They repayed him by wiping him clean of his memories and making him the equivalent of a cow when compared to humans.

Sweetsong
January 23rd, 2007, 11:33 AM
I really liked the look of the Wraith Queen in "Allies." I haven't seen the look of the queen in Submersion yet. But the one in Allies, her outfit is something I would wear. And she had the best hair too, it was black with silver highlights looked more realistic than any of the other queen wigs I've seen.

Well this thread isn't about wraith queen styles so derail is over, back to our regularly scheduled episode banter. =p

silence
January 23rd, 2007, 11:36 AM
I think "Michael" and "Misbegotten" proved that they don't really like the Wraith, at all, consider them all to be evil and don't want to release them once they've captured them.

Michael was force-fed the drug after he had helped save all of Earth and quite a few of their people. They repayed him by wiping him clean of his memories and making him the equivalent of a cow when compared to humans.

I agree about that, but we also have "Allies" where they trusted the Wraith and what happened? ... After "Allies" would YOU trust any deal with Wraith?
Micheal's actions in S3 were only to save his own butt ... yes, he did help save Earth, but only because he felt his time is running out. Let's not idolize Wraith that much ...

They were given access to Atlantis database and research and all they were ever interested was to get location of largest feeding ground in universe and to enhance their hyperdrives to get there as fast as possible....

True?

xfkirsten
January 23rd, 2007, 11:36 AM
Add my vote in for the "a bit above average, but not all that memorable" category.

Stuff I didn't like:
-Predictable! I called just about every plot point.
-The "planting the idea in the mind" thing? It was cool in The Return Part 2 because it was new. But to use the same idea again within 8 episodes? Not cool.
-The team making some dumb choices - "oh, see, Teyla acted weird, but then says she's okay, so we're just gonna go right back to work as if nothing ever happened!"

Stuff I liked:
-I thought it had a decent story that was engaging, if a bit rehashed.
-It was very much a team episode, where everyone got in on the action.
-Teyla got a fair share of the focus, because lord knows she needs it!
-Elizabeth's "I'm all yours. Put me to work, Colonel!" My mind went straight to the gutter on that one. ;)
-Wet!Shep! (although he needed to stay wet longer ;))

female Wraith
January 23rd, 2007, 11:45 AM
What kind of information were they going to get? At the time, they only knew her, and it was believed she was on the station originally (she had somehow gotten trapped). The way it was established, the Wraith Queen was probably going to be a prisoner anyways (why should a queen give up information if she knows she's going to die?). Dr Weir established they hadn't intended on killing her by saying that her refusal to give up information will kill not only herself ( the queen) and the Atlantis expedition. The Queen was going to be allowed to live (and do you really think Atlantis would have killed her, especially after finding out who she was?). Had she given the information up, she would have been allowed to live for the sole purpose of interrogation alone.

I believe if Mckay had his trusty Ancient/Wraith/Earth/Goa'uld tech tablet pc on him he could have brute forced the code. The code only had six digits, making it easily crackable. To illustrate this, WEP is extraordinarily vulnerable to cracking, and it's 8-10 digits long. The Queen was going to live, had she not threatened Sheppard, she might have lived. But then again, she was trapped under the ocean for 10,000 years. We're trusting her to be sane.

Her return to power, what power? Her return would have caused nothing but would've revealed Atlantis to the Wraith, once again. Something we could not afford. I'm surprised she didn't try to send off a subspace communication, particularly if her ship had breathable atmosphere on it. And it obviously had enough power if it was about to self-destruct and sustained her for 10,000 years. I do wish we'd have seen Andee in the credits though. I think it was perhaps Andee's best performance to date (and the most lines). That's assuming that's Andee, though the voice certainly sounded like hers.

I guess this rules out that Queens have their hair whiten after awhile. I'm surprised however there wasn't a mutiny, considering the circumstances. Though her admission that she was the Queen of a great alliance suggests that their organization as insect colonies are not as strong as we had predicted...for all we know she could be related to the uber-wraith (that hive didn't have a queen that we knew of).

What did she want?? I think it was obvious - she told Sheppard that he will pilot the ship and return her to her people. She was with VERY clear mind and didn't intent to die.
If they had a deal with her and provided her with a transport to another world what did she do??? First she will have to fight with another Queens. This act will only deepened the civil war.
And what if she reveal the existance of Atlantis??? What profit she will gain from this fact? In a moment when the Wraith are canabalizing each other do you think any Queen will risk her Hive to be damaged or even destroyed if she began a new war with Atlantis?? The risk another Queen to conquer her teritory and humans while she is fighting with the Lanteans...

silence
January 23rd, 2007, 11:49 AM
I really liked the look of the Wraith Queen in "Allies." I haven't seen the look of the queen in Submersion yet. But the one in Allies, her outfit is something I would wear. And she had the best hair too, it was black with silver highlights looked more realistic than any of the other queen wigs I've seen.

Well this thread isn't about wraith queen styles so derail is over, back to our regularly scheduled episode banter. =p

Well ... this Queen is totally out of Wraith fashion ;)
kinda comes with being on the bottom of the ocean for 10000 years.

FallenAngelII
January 23rd, 2007, 11:51 AM
I agree about that, but we also have "Allies" where they trusted the Wraith and what happened? ... After "Allies" would YOU trust any deal with Wraith?
Micheal's actions in S3 were only to save his own butt ... yes, he did help save Earth, but only because he felt his time is running out. Let's not idolize Wraith that much ...

They were given access to Atlantis database and research and all they were ever interested was to get location of largest feeding ground in universe and to enhance their hyperdrives to get there as fast as possible....

True?
Why do people keep saying they "trusted" the Wraith in "Allies" and how they made an "Alliance" and yaddi yaddi yadda. They were forced into striking a deal with the Wraith. Either help them with their plan (though it might be a trap) or they'd alert every single Hive in this galaxy to Atlantis' continued survival (which would inevitably lead to its destruction).

They didn't really trust the Wraith as far as they could throw them. Even when Rodney was making repairs on the damaged hive, he was secretely hacking its systems.

Michael saved his own butt, yes. But in the process, he helped save all of Earth. It's like saying that if I was riding on a bus and it lost control but I somehow managed to regain control of it and stop it, I'd only just saved my butt and no one should feel grateful to be for saving theirs as well.

So they got shafted by the Wraith in "Allies". Does this mean they have to shaft every single Wraith they ever get into an alliance with in the future?

I'm not idolizing anyone. I'm saying that Michael deserved something for helping them.

silence
January 23rd, 2007, 11:52 AM
What did she want?? I think it was obvious - she told Sheppard that he will pilot the ship and return her to her people. She was with VERY clear mind and didn't intent to die.
If they had a deal with her and provided her with a transport to another world what did she do??? First she will have to fight with another Queens. This act will only deepened the civil war.
And what if she reveal the existance of Atlantis??? What profit she will gain from this fact? In a moment when the Wraith are canabalizing each other do you think any Queen will risk her Hive to be damaged or even destroyed if she began a new war with Atlantis?? The risk another Queen to conquer her teritory and humans while she is fighting with the Lanteans...


Atlantis has information on location of Earth ... and being "leader of great alliance who led first attack on Atlantis" prolly means she has both political and military skills and she would use them.

she could rally all the Wraith AGAIN and start new siege of Atlantis ... she is prolly some sort of legend among them ...

silence
January 23rd, 2007, 11:55 AM
Why do people keep saying they "trusted" the Wraith in "Allies" and how they made an "Alliance" and yaddi yaddi yadda. They were forced into striking a deal with the Wraith. Either help them with their plan (though it might be a trap) or they'd alert every single Hive in this galaxy to Atlantis' continued survival (which would inevitably lead to its destruction).

They didn't really trust the Wraith as far as they could throw them. Even when Rodney was making repairs on the damaged hive, he was secretely hacking its systems.

Michael saved his own butt, yes. But in the process, he helped save all of Earth. It's like saying that if I was riding on a bus and it lost control but I somehow managed to regain control of it and stop it, I'd only just saved my butt and no one should feel grateful to be for saving theirs as well.

So they got shafted by the Wraith in "Allies". Does this mean they have to shaft every single Wraith they ever get into an alliance with in the future?

I'm not idolizing anyone. I'm saying that Michael deserved something for helping them.

OK.
You actually enforce my views .. Atlantis was forced to deal with Wraith, where both sides had hidden agendas (only Wraith outsmarted our heroes ;) ).

As for Michael, i agree with you .. it was really low. But then, we prolly wouldn't have "Vengeance" ;) (i really hope it's him in it) if they didn't doublecross him.

sailfindragon
January 23rd, 2007, 11:59 AM
Not a bad episode. Quite enjoyable in most respects. Did get the feeling that this episode should have aired before Sunday. 7/10.
I actually enjoyed Weir in this one and was glad most of the cast was there including Zelenka.
Looking forward to seeing the final 2 episodes of the season to see what kind of direction the next season is heading towards.
Going to watch Stargate SG1 New Episode.

female Wraith
January 23rd, 2007, 12:05 PM
Atlantis has information on location of Earth ... and being "leader of great alliance who led first attack on Atlantis" prolly means she has both political and military skills and she would use them.

she could rally all the Wraith AGAIN and start new siege of Atlantis ... she is prolly some sort of legend among them ...

While watching the episodes with Wraith in them I learnt one thing - the Wraith despised the weakness. And from their point of view this Queen allowing to be trapped is weak. Also the fact that she was released by the Lanteans will rise a suspicion between other Queens. "Whay did they release her? What for?" Such thoughts will cross the Wraith' minds.
And something else - why was she left behind? May be she had and still has many rival Queens who don't want she to be a Leader of Hives.

Quinn Mallory
January 23rd, 2007, 12:07 PM
Still not sure why Weir went on this mission but it's good to have her around. Lost couple random scientists again...that's starting to get a little old. Couple places that I thought was odd turned out to be ok (mainly the reuse of the same plot device as the Return part 2...I thought it was odd that Weir won't let Teyla try again and then Sheppard was in the vision) but it turned out that Teyla was in full control and fed the Queen the false vision (Teyla being in control being the main difference between this and Return part 2).

Overall...about an average episode to me. (** out of ****).

rarocks24
January 23rd, 2007, 12:07 PM
Some caps of the Queen

http://img131.imageshack.us/img131/5120/picture14jh.png

http://img120.imageshack.us/img120/7122/picture21lh.png

http://img120.imageshack.us/img120/6514/picture37mb.png

http://img50.imageshack.us/img50/5522/picture50lf.png

http://img50.imageshack.us/img50/5875/picture94fz.png

Her crown doesn't do much for her hairstyle, shamefully.

rarocks24
January 23rd, 2007, 12:10 PM
Still not sure why Weir went on this mission but it's good to have her around. Lost couple random scientists again...that's starting to get a little old. Couple places that I thought was odd turned out to be ok (mainly the reuse of the same plot device as the Return part 2...I thought it was odd that Weir won't let Teyla try again and then Sheppard was in the vision) but it turned out that Teyla was in full control and fed the Queen the false vision (Teyla being in control being the main difference between this and Return part 2).

Overall...about an average episode to me. (** out of ****).

Sorry, I can't remember Teyla losing control in Return, Pt 2. :S You mean like she did during The Siege, Pt 1?

ussrelativity
January 23rd, 2007, 12:21 PM
Good caps from above in the thread. Any more elsewhere?

silence
January 23rd, 2007, 12:23 PM
While watching the episodes with Wraith in them I learnt one thing - the Wraith despised the weakness. And from their point of view this Queen allowing to be trapped is weak. Also the fact that she was released by the Lanteans will rise a suspicion between other Queens. "Whay did they release her? What for?" Such thoughts will cross the Wraith' minds.
And something else - why was she left behind? May be she had and still has many rival Queens who don't want she to be a Leader of Hives.

Rivalry exists, of course, but they also can work together for common goal, as it was shown. She didn't create great alliance just like that. And promise of richest feeding ground in the universe does sound nice ... if you are Wraith. :)

xfkirsten
January 23rd, 2007, 12:29 PM
Sorry, I can't remember Teyla losing control in Return, Pt 2. :S You mean like she did during The Siege, Pt 1?

I believe they were referring to the "false memory" trick, which was used in Return Pt 2. :)

ShoDar
January 23rd, 2007, 01:05 PM
I liked it. It was really good to see that the thread of Teyla's interactions with the wraith get picked up again. I especially loved that Ronon got beat up by Teyla and then he missed when he shot at the wraith.. and Rodney didn't! lol It's about time we get some picking on Ronon going to have him be more a part of the snarkfest of the team.

The only thing that bugged me was the abruptness of the ending. It seemed a little...choked off somehow. I don't read spoilers, but that combined with the fact that nobody checked to see if the queen was actually dead might have some interesting implications.



Goof #1: At first, the force fields freeze people in their tracks and then throw them backwards (Ronon sure did a big leap backwards), as if electrocuted, but when Rodney and Radek put the force field up around the docking area, Rodney could touch it, he wasn't phazed at all.

Goof #4: Why the Hell didn't the Queen kill Ronon when she was controlling Teyla? And why didn't she feed on Teyla when she got out of her restrains? Obvious "We can't kill our main characters" plot holes.

It depends on how the force fields work. If they merely transfer the kinetic energy, there would be a difference. (wasn't it John who touched it?)

Why would she kill Ronon with Teyla when she fully believed she could kill him herself? I would think the hunger would take precedence over killing everyone right off the bat. It would also be a strategic advantage to get more food if Teyla was under wraith control and could convince Atlantis to lower their guard.

jenks
January 23rd, 2007, 01:11 PM
Just seemed to me like another filler episode like The Ark, pathetic imo. If we hadn't found out a few things I don't think it would of been worth watching at all.


Seems the 'salt waster kills Wraith' theroy has been shot to ****.

No mention of Carson.

Rodney got his gun off.

Queens seem to be able to control even humans to an extent.

We have a an underwater mobile drilling station and a Wraith cruiser?

FallenAngelII
January 23rd, 2007, 01:18 PM
Atlantis has information on location of Earth ... and being "leader of great alliance who led first attack on Atlantis" prolly means she has both political and military skills and she would use them.

she could rally all the Wraith AGAIN and start new siege of Atlantis ... she is prolly some sort of legend among them ...
How does knowing some people from Atlantis survived equal knowing that Atlantis survived the Siege? The Wraith aren't idiots. They know there are Atlantis members running around. They've encountered us running around.

silence
January 23rd, 2007, 01:24 PM
How does knowing some people from Atlantis survived equal knowing that Atlantis survived the Siege? The Wraith aren't idiots. They know there are Atlantis members running around. They've encountered us running around.

dunno... i am guessing? like most of us. :)
could be reasoning behind _THEIR_ decision not to let her live ... if she managed to control Teyla and Shep, you don't think she looked around in their mind? She couldn't fly the ship, so she picked Shep to do it ... she had to know he has the gene .. we could go on like this for ever ... ;)

rarocks24
January 23rd, 2007, 01:24 PM
How does knowing some people from Atlantis survived equal knowing that Atlantis survived the Siege? The Wraith aren't idiots. They know there are Atlantis members running around. They've encountered us running around.
Just one question? How exactly do you suppose they get her off the planet? Wait for the Daedalus to get back then take her up? Sadly, she probably found out Atlantis survived when she was in control of Teyla. Also, if they were going to take her through the gate, they'd have to take her thru the city, which would again, reveal the existence of Atlantis. Either way, the secret was comin' out. The cat was out of the bag the moment Teyla got taken over.

FallenAngelII
January 23rd, 2007, 01:32 PM
Just one question? How exactly do you suppose they get her off the planet? Wait for the Daedalus to get back then take her up? Sadly, she probably found out Atlantis survived when she was in control of Teyla. Also, if they were going to take her through the gate, they'd have to take her thru the city, which would again, reveal the existence of Atlantis. Either way, the secret was comin' out. The cat was out of the bag the moment Teyla got taken over.
I don't know, stun her with Ronon's gun like they did with the "Common Ground" Wraith?

Arctic Goddess
January 23rd, 2007, 01:43 PM
Maybe I'm too easily entertained, but I like all of the Atlantis and stargate episodes, some a lot more than others, but I've never hated one. Realizing that not every episode is going to be perfect or going to be to my tastes, I'm willing to let stuff go and enjoy watching the episode for the interaction, the humor, the special effects, and just because it's cool.

i found forever
January 23rd, 2007, 01:55 PM
I really liked this episode. There were some surprising scenes that I enjoyed (Ronon shooting the windshield) I love Teyla so it was great for me having so much of her and and the way they were paired was awesome *g*. Rodney saying ZING ahahahahaha cracked me up!

Yay for Liz/John!

Platschu
January 23rd, 2007, 02:14 PM
Sorry gaters, but this was really weak. The whole story is a remake from earlier episodes:

- The defiant one - The lonely queen, who fed upon his own crew to survive inside a crashed Wratih spaceship
- Inferno - The explosion will destroy the planet's thin surface too with geological energy
- The ark - The new station will separate the teammember with shields and it seems that it will destroyed by ocean. They can not escape without a brave rescue plan.
- The return 2 - Teyla cheat the Queen so as John did the replicators.

Other bad points:
- The set was boring and primitive
- How could Ronon fire out the jumper's window?

The only good points:
- the visual effects, but it was similar to Seaquest DSV and The Abyss (a Cameron film with aliens)
- Teyla had an episode at least

When I read the spoilers, I thougth that the Oannes (SG-1 "Fire and Water") or the aliens from "Watergate" will return. I think I was naive. :(

FoolishPleasure
January 23rd, 2007, 02:24 PM
Sorry gaters, but this was really weak. The whole story is a remake from earlier episodes:

- The defiant one - The lonely queen, who fed upon his own crew to survive inside a crashed Wratih spaceship
- Inferno - The explosion will destroy the planet's thin surface too with geological energy
- The ark - The new station will separate the teammember with shields and it seems that it will destroyed by ocean. They can not escape without a brave rescue plan.
- The return 2 - Teyla cheat the Queen so as John did the replicators.

Other bad points:
- The set was boring and primitive
- How could Ronon fire out the jumper's window?

The only good points:
- the visual effects, but it was similar to Seaquest DSV and The Abyss (a Cameron film with aliens)
- Teyla had an episode at least

When I read the spoilers, I thougth that the Oannes (SG-1 "Fire and Water") or the aliens from "Watergate" will return. I think I was naive. :(

So, the writers have gone beyond snurching old SG1 scripts, and now they are cannibalizing their own.

Kinda sad, isn't it. ;)

Platschu
January 23rd, 2007, 02:35 PM
Yes, you are right. The first half of the season 3 was good, because 5-6 episodes were parts of the metaplot. But know? They write only stand-alones. I don't say, that this episodes are bad, because as a fan I like them, but the SG-1's last episodes are the true examples that they can make much better with good character scenes, hateable enemies and intresting connected stories. The TPTB should be brave to make bigger, more complex stories between the two series. Please, use the SG-1's legacy! I fear the first time that season 4 will be the last if they continue with this attitude. This show nowadays only avarage and it isn't enough for us.

What did Mitchell say in "200"?
"Never underestimate your audience. They're generally sensitive, intelligent people who respond positively to quality entertainment."

rarocks24
January 23rd, 2007, 02:41 PM
I don't know, stun her with Ronon's gun like they did with the "Common Ground" Wraith?

Again, pointless. She had already been exposed to Teyla's mind. They were compromised from the second teyla connected to her. It wouldn't have mattered.

Alipeeps
January 23rd, 2007, 02:42 PM
My thoughts on this ep.

I liked it. I wouldn't say I was enthralled by it but I definitely liked it. Something of a filler ep - but then anything following the trauma and drama of last week's ep is gonna feel that way. It was another nice team ep, of which we've had a few this season, with everyone involved in the plotline and some nice interaction between team members. The snarking was entertaining and yet also kinda subdued... which is about as much of a concession to last week's loss as I had reasonably expected from TPTB. I did enjoy the humorous moments... Sheppard and Weir being "mum and dad" to a jumper full of fractious, arguing children scientists was a fun moment... and I liked the Wraith plotline (nice to see them again).

I thought the Wraith queen in particular was excellent and very well portrayed - possibly my favourite female wraith aside from The Keeper. The interrogation scenes had a nice dark undertone that I kinda liked. The scene in the jumper with Sheppard was tense and the flooding a dramatic moment... however, it seemed to be glossed over rather quickly. It felt like maybe they had a lot of plot/explanation to fit into this ep and so they rushed it along a bit.. and yet, conversely, it felt kinda slow... I think what leaves me with that feeling is that I didn't really get much sense of tension or suspense from the ep - aside from the afore-mentioned scene in the jumper.

My other main quibble is that I found the plot - dare I say it? - a little predictable. I admit I was spoilered as to the possibility of their being a wraith queen in the ep but even so, I called Teyla being taken over, there being a crashed wraith ship nearby, the wraith having set the self-destruct etc etc before those plot points were revealed.

Overall, not one of the strongest eps of the season but a nonetheless very enjoyable team-centric episode with some nice character moments and an interesting plotline... I just kinda wish it'd had a little more... I dunno.. "bite" to it.

localfocus
January 23rd, 2007, 02:42 PM
The Defiant One similarities were what struck me the most. The early conversation about sensing the wraith and not seeing them on the scanners is just like the conversation in the Defiant One. It wouldn't have been so odd except that Rodney of anyone knows that the wraith don't show when hibernating. He had the brunt of the guilt over Gall's death in TDO. If they had different people on different sides, ala Zelenka pushing about not seeing them on the scanners, it would have been more buyable. As it is, it just looks like nobody learns from their mistakes. They keep making the same ones and have almost identical conversations about them :(

prion
January 23rd, 2007, 02:49 PM
This episode didn't air.

Yes, it did. There are screencaps and reviews out there. However, that would depend upon where you live if it did or didn't air....

rarocks24
January 23rd, 2007, 02:49 PM
Yeah, but there's an element to Wraith hybernation, a sort of bed if you will. Rodney was quite correct about the claim that there were no Wraith lifesigns. Though if he extended the scanners, he may have found the ship long before that. No one was really at fault for what happened. And regardless of whatever the Queens healing abilities were, it's still pretty unbelievable that she swam under that amount of pressure. They had to be deep enough that submarine hulls would be taking a beating, and she's not that strong.

prion
January 23rd, 2007, 02:52 PM
Some caps of the Queen



Nice caps. Can you cap a wet Shep lying on the floor after the 'water ride'?? ;)

prion
January 23rd, 2007, 02:55 PM
Okay, I come here without having read all the other posts.

The episode was a little better than average. The beginning was very strong, so was the end, but the middle was kind of hu-hum.

Gracen - Gradon, Davidson - Dickinson -- LOL. I wondered all the time whether those characters were having a nice introduction here so that they could be used in later episodes, or whether they were just red shirts. I would have loved to keep both of those characters.




Er, that was GrayDon, not GraySon <G> and Dickenson (i read the end credits). Alas, like in any show, you get guest stars who (in scifi vernacular) are 'red shirts.' Boy, nobody's gonna want go on a field trip with McKay after this one ;)

SGAFan
January 23rd, 2007, 02:56 PM
So, was it a good ep? Because alot of what I'm hearing is just people complaining that no one mentioned Carson?

I liked it. Not falling off my chair saying OMG that's the best thing ever, but it was "fun" (in that sort of spooky, everyone in peril, manage to escape sort of way *G*)


Well...I watched it. Hmmmm....

- I didn't understand why a Queen will be leading the big Alliance of many Hives on the board of a cruiser?!?!?!


Unless she escaped a destroyed Hive and crashed on the planet? Just a thought. We really didn't know the particulars of the battle so its hard to call that a plot hole.. *G*

Have to agree with Ali, LOVED the wraith queen. Probably my fav queen to date (kind of sad to see her die, she would've been fun to encounter again) Talk about a bad a$$ Bi*** ;)

I though the start with the snarking in the jumper was hilarious.

Shep: "Do I have to pull this thing over?" ROFL

I liked the dark and spooky setting as well and how the end solution wasn't the same old "Rodney saves the day just in the nick of time" thing. ;)

McKay: "She's not dying according to plan here!" ROFL

All in all, decent ep :)

Ken, good job! Have to admit I liked CG better *G* but this was fun too :)

localfocus
January 23rd, 2007, 02:58 PM
Yeah, but there's an element to Wraith hybernation, a sort of bed if you will. Rodney was quite correct about the claim that there were no Wraith lifesigns. Though if he extended the scanners, he may have found the ship long before that. No one was really at fault for what happened. Well, I wasn't thinking in terms of fault. It was everyone's stance in the conversation that was odd. It seemed as if Ken needed a naysayer in the conversation, and picked McKay. But in this circumstance it seemed out of character.

Linzi
January 23rd, 2007, 02:59 PM
Well I liked it. Yes, there were flaws, but I still was thoroughly entertained. The queen was creepy and scary, the sets dark and the water gushing through the jumper was excellent. I'm not saying anything about wet Shep ...ahem ;)
Nice to see Teyla having some action, and ouch to poor Ronon.
The one thing that had me concerned was Weir being on the mission. I just dont think her, Sheppard and McKay would all go together on a scouting mission like that. I kept thinking, 'what if they all get killed?' So, that did irk me. Weir should not have gone, she's too valuable, IMO.
Otherwise, I enjoyed it. It did lack a little action, and could have been more...hmmm, exciting in places, but a good filler episode.:)

Lizabeth
January 23rd, 2007, 03:04 PM
I LOVED seeing Elizabeth off with the team. Loved all the Elizabeth Teyla interaction as well, great to see the two of them have lots of scenes together!! I hope to see more bonding between the two of them as time goes on.

rarocks24
January 23rd, 2007, 03:05 PM
Nice caps. Can you cap a wet Shep lying on the floor after the 'water ride'?? ;)

I sure can. :)

Gateworld, if you'd like to use this image for this Queen's profile, be my guest.

http://img170.imageshack.us/img170/5346/picture139hq.png

And now, for the Shepwhumpers/thunkers

http://img170.imageshack.us/img170/3106/picture157tj.png

http://img412.imageshack.us/img412/3632/picture179ks.png

http://img412.imageshack.us/img412/9683/picture183fn.png

bluealien
January 23rd, 2007, 03:10 PM
I liked this ep - though I was also thinking why was Weir there - what happens if any bad guys coming knocking on Atlantis's door - will they just go away because no one is home - I wonder who was left in charge.

The ep had a few flaws but not enough to hamper my enjoyment and overall I found it very entertaining and enjoyable. Great to see Teyla get a good part of the action and she did a wonderful job. The Wraith Queen was creepy and scary and I would love to see her again - loved her little session with Shep in the jumper. Would have liked to have seen more of this. I thought they killed her a bit too easily in the end - but then maybe she isnt dead and will return...

Mitchell82
January 23rd, 2007, 03:13 PM
Maybe I'm too easily entertained, but I like all of the Atlantis and stargate episodes, some a lot more than others, but I've never hated one. Realizing that not every episode is going to be perfect or going to be to my tastes, I'm willing to let stuff go and enjoy watching the episode for the interaction, the humor, the special effects, and just because it's cool.

Thats eexactly my felings as well. So you're not the only one.:D

Alipeeps
January 23rd, 2007, 03:22 PM
TPTB will sometimes leave the name of recurring guest stars out of the opening credits for shock value in the episode. If you saw Andy's name, you would know a Wraith would show up. Removing her name takes the audience by surprise. Chris Carter did this sometimes on X-Files, especially when the evil Krychek became popular and his unexpected appearance would be a great zinger, but CC did say later that it was okayed by Nicholas Lea beforehand. I'm sure Andy's agent was aware of it, and gave the "okay".

Good point.


BTW I realized that the theory about salt water and it's use as a weapon against the Wraith was submerged with this episode:)))


Or (I'm only thinking about it now...) only the Wraith Queens are not "allergic" to salt water, and the normal Wraith warriors are.

[crickets]

Yeah, what a sorry attempt to keep the old theory alive... :)

Hmmm... it could be I guess... after all, Queens and only Queens were resistant to the retrovirus...


About why she was on cruiser?

Lemme see.... she was leading assault on Atlantis (they didn't say she did it in a cruiser, just that she is the one who did it). She comes over Atlantis in her Hive. Ancients indentify leading ship, turn all their firepower on it .... shoot down the Hive, Queen escapes to cruiser, Ancients keep firing, seeing that leader of assault is on cruiser now... hit cruiser, cruiser crashes.

End of problem.

I think it's really nitpicking discussing why she was on cruiser. It wasn't said she led the assault in cruiser. And i simply don't see how this episode would work at all if that was Hive down there .. so they made it a cruiser. Which is (as McKay says) in pretty good shape and we might add it to the fleet at some point.


Also a good point. That was my guess also. They never said she was leading the assault from a cruiser - I could well imagine if her hive was hit and badly damaged her attempting to escape in a cruiser and that crashing...


It's not as much about keeping her alive their unwillingness to even consider making a deal with her that if she helped them all live, they'd let her go.

Such a deal would be reasonable considering they were all about to die.

A) they never said to her that they were going to kill her even if she gave them the information they needed (what incentive would that give her to fess up?) and Weir even pointed out that if she didn't help them then she would be killed in the explosion along with them (how is that any kind of threat/incentive if they've already told the queen that they're going to kill her anyway if she *does* give up the information?)

B) Letting a Wraith Queen with the knowledge that Atlantis still exists go free to rejoin her fellow wraith? Not the brightest idea ever...


-Wet!Shep! (although he needed to stay wet longer ;))

Hmm, yes. He did dry off remarkably quickly. I guess they didn't want teh hair messed up for too long... ;)


Maybe I'm too easily entertained, but I like all of the Atlantis and stargate episodes, some a lot more than others, but I've never hated one. Realizing that not every episode is going to be perfect or going to be to my tastes, I'm willing to let stuff go and enjoy watching the episode for the interaction, the humor, the special effects, and just because it's cool.

That's pretty much my take on things too. :D

NinaM
January 23rd, 2007, 03:25 PM
I liked this ep - though I was also thinking why was Weir there - what happens if any bad guys coming knocking on Atlantis's door - will they just go away because no one is home - I wonder who was left in charge.

The ep had a few flaws but not enough to hamper my enjoyment and overall I found it very entertaining and enjoyable. Great to see Teyla get a good part of the action and she did a wonderful job. The Wraith Queen was creepy and scary and I would love to see her again - loved her little session with Shep in the jumper. Would have liked to have seen more of this. I thought they killed her a bit too easily in the end - but then maybe she isnt dead and will return...

I agree with you....

I liked the epi...yes there were flaws but overall I truly liked it...

Teyla got a good part of it,,, and did great...
The Wraith Queen was scary and the scene with her and Shep in the jumper was great...
A really good team episode,,, the concern for John after losing his control to the Queen, the concern for Teyla...
The small moments of humor...

All in all not the best this season,,,but a great episode IMO...

Franklyn Blaze
January 23rd, 2007, 03:28 PM
It was not horrible, but not great for a lot of the reasons already mentioned. I did not feel a connection to the place, too much cutting in and out of rooms, no continuity.
I was glad that they got some tech. No big gee-wow tech though(hope I'm wrong) I loved McKay's comment that he "would just blow it up or slam it into a hive ship or something" I really want the cruiser to last more than two episodes! :D Maybe they can find some goodies in the wraith computer.

Cailliath
January 23rd, 2007, 03:37 PM
I liked it. Ok so it's not the best of the season but not every episode can be. Teyla is a really great character now. It's a shame she was so underutilized in the past. And on a shallow note, any episode with a wet Shep works for me. The beginning scene in the jumper was hilarious also.

I get the whole reset thing but to not even mention Carson was a real irk. I mean come on, if they're going to reset with such a big thing like that, why don't they just go all the way and reset the whole show? Oh wait, apparently they're going to be doing just that.

That aside though, good episode.

rarocks24
January 23rd, 2007, 03:39 PM
It was a decent episode, that brought all to memorable reminders to The Defiant One. But it will never live up to the original. Now if they had kept the Queen alive and the last scene was of her looking up from one of those prisoner medical labs on Earth, that'd be nice.

Psyku
January 23rd, 2007, 04:04 PM
not a bad ep okay the whole it's not you're fault teyla i can understand it was a bit much.

but who gives a .... for who the call eachother

hell i differ with my own friends every now and then. sur or lastname i don't care

making a atlantian whale out of an small atlantian rodent :mckay:

PG15
January 23rd, 2007, 04:27 PM
I enjoyed it; a very solid (but not perfect) episode. Teyla was great in it, and just reaffirms her position on the show for me; she may not have a big part, but she is consistant and whenever she's given a chance, she'll shine.

The points:

Like "The Ark", this episode had a very alien feeling to it, even if the station was Lantian in design. Here is another example where the setting can make-or-break an episode (for the opposite effect, see Irresponsible). The constant bubbling water and cool, blue light really added to the isolation and danger of the whole situation.

Again, Teyla was great in this episode (I guess this week is all about the women of Stargate ;)). She maintained her strength throughout, even when she was obviously loosing to the greater mind of the queen. Once more, we see the strong, leader Teyla we've known since day 1.

Loved the little bantering near the beginning; although you're pretty much sure that the extras who talk are dead.

Speaking of which, the one big failing of the episode, as others have mentioned, is the predictableness. The ending caught me off guard at first, and then I quickly figured everything out. I think the Queen believed Teyla's little lie a little too easily. Oh well, 1) deep sea and 2) desperation to get away will do that to ya I suppose.

And about Carson: I had no problem in them not mentioning him; it's too soon and this is hardly the episode for it. Why would any of them bring up the painful memory of their dead friend in the middle of an important mission? The grieving for Danny happened in the team's off hours, and I don't think they mentioned him at all once they got drafted by Thor on their mission.

Now Vengence, yeah, they better make a big stink if Michael asks for Carson.

So, we have a cruiser now eh? If it happened more in the middle of the season, we would probably never see it again, but I think they're definately getting ready for the season finale here. IMHO, we'll be seeing the Cruiser again.

Lastly, Andee Frizzell did a great job, as usual.

Anyway, the team moments were solid, while Teyla shined. This solid episode gets...

Score: 8/10

theonebluegecko
January 23rd, 2007, 04:39 PM
I really liked the episode. The plot was interesting and exciting to watch, but most of all I liked the Batman references.

There was of course the whole Graydon-Grayson thing, but it took me a bit to notice that the guy with him was Dickinson, as in Dick Grayson.

PG15
January 23rd, 2007, 04:44 PM
Sorry gaters, but this was really weak. The whole story is a remake from earlier episodes:

- The defiant one - The lonely queen, who fed upon his own crew to survive inside a crashed Wratih spaceship[
- Inferno - The explosion will destroy the planet's thin surface too with geological energy

Ok, I see the similarities, but come on, what do you expect a lone Wraith to do? They're just following up on Wraith behavior here. As for Inferno; the only similarity is the geothermal thing. The first one was a supervolcano, this was a Wrath cruiser self-destructing; totally different.

And both ideas were only a small part of those episodes.


- The ark - The new station will separate the teammember with shields and it seems that it will destroyed by ocean. They can not escape without a brave rescue plan.
- The return 2 - Teyla cheat the Queen so as John did the replicators.

And these are just ludicrous. A brave rescue plan?! How is that a rip? It's a common story element used in at least half of all Stargate episodes, including both series premier for crying out loud. And tricking the enemy is now a rip? Give me a break. I'm sure the enemies will breath a sigh of relief to know that we can't ever trick them because it'll be a rip-off.

Sorry for being such an a-hole, but come on.

Sweetsong
January 23rd, 2007, 05:42 PM
I think I figured out why Weir was actually on the mission, she wouldn't have had much air time otherwise. Since communications were down, when the team became over due there might have been one scene showing her dispatching the rescue jumper and that would have been it. One scene for an entire episode and since she was still a primary character when this was taped that would have been awful.

prion
January 23rd, 2007, 06:03 PM
I wrote up a review/synopsis of the episode, and as usual, won't fit the parameters of GW's words (too big) so for anyone interested, it's over at my livejournal at

http://wraithfodder.livejournal.com/46087.html

expendable_crewman
January 23rd, 2007, 06:27 PM
Ok, I see the similarities, but come on, what do you expect a lone Wraith to do? They're just following up on Wraith behavior here. As for Inferno; the only similarity is the geothermal thing. The first one was a supervolcano, this was a Wrath cruiser self-destructing; totally different.

And both ideas were only a small part of those episodes.

And these are just ludicrous. A brave rescue plan?! How is that a rip? It's a common story element used in at least half of all Stargate episodes, including both series premier for crying out loud. And tricking the enemy is now a rip? Give me a break. I'm sure the enemies will breath a sigh of relief to know that we can't ever trick them because it'll be a rip-off.

Sorry for being such an a-hole, but come on.My thoughts as well. Thanks for posting this.

Someone mentioned the setting and lighting being good. I enjoyed the station's feeling also. And the close room they used to interrogate the queen was creepy.

I'm a fan of the water eps, this one no exception. They threw in a Wraith and so I'll re-watch.

I was happy to get the explanation about Teyla's mind-meld thing, specifically that she has to initiate the connection. I thought the ep used Weir and McKay dialogue well to clear up any gray areas there. And Teyla took on a queen. Opens up possibilities for the future I hope get explored. So much more to tell about the Wraith.

I was pleased with the pace. I like to hear the characters talk more than I like to see them run and shoot. Okay, well, maybe as much as I like the action.

And wet, I like them wet on occasion.

Nice visual with the jumper windscreen.

I'll watch it again.

mcbarr
January 23rd, 2007, 07:01 PM
Great episode! Only two things I didn't like: a) no reference to Carson (as I'm sure someone else has already mentioned); b) the usual safe ending when the ep clearly required something more puzzling, mysterious...

DaCk
January 23rd, 2007, 07:03 PM
Wasn't it established in 38 minutes that the iratus bug hated salt water? And since the wraith are very similar to the iratus bug that they would have this same hatred of salt water?

So in that case how could a Wraith Hive Queen SWIM through an ocean????


Hopefully they can get the cruiser out of the water. And it is in fairly good condition still. They could at least take the weapons off of it.

Did they ever say why the ancients abandoned the station??

I thought it left a lot of questions open and a lot of goof ups as one person has already stated earlier on here some of them. And wasn't as good as everyone is saying it is. I would put it at more like 5 or 6 of 10.

theonebluegecko
January 23rd, 2007, 07:26 PM
Great episode! Only two things I didn't like: a) no reference to Carson (as I'm sure someone else has already mentioned); b) the usual safe ending when the ep clearly required something more puzzling, mysterious...

I would have liked a reference to Carson, but I understand why they did not. In general they try to make it such that someone can watch one episode without being completely spoiled about previous ones. And also, it is possible that this episode occurred months after the Carson on, it is likely that they would no longer be talking about it all the time.

Agent_Dark
January 23rd, 2007, 07:31 PM
Can someone explain to me what Weir's purpose on the mission was? Too bad if the jumper breaks down and kills Atlantis' entire senior command staff in one go... No doubt Beckett would have been there too, if he hadn't of departed in Sunday.

Now don't get me wrong, I like Weir, but these episodes prove to me the problems they're having with Weir as a main character in writing the episodes the way they are.

smushybird
January 23rd, 2007, 07:37 PM
They really must be amnesiac (that or Elizabeth is) if they're making Elizabeth call Rodney and John McKay... in the same episode.


They've done that in other episodes, where she'll call Rodney "Rodney" and "McKay" both....she did in "Hide and Seek", I know for certain, and she has in other episodes that I can't recall off-hand. She's also done the same to Sheppard. It seems she tends to use last names when she's in her sort of professional, business-like mode....asserting her authority, so to speak. She goes to first names for a friendlier tone. But yes, she does switch back and forth.

Mitchell82
January 23rd, 2007, 07:57 PM
I enjoyed it; a very solid (but not perfect) episode. Teyla was great in it, and just reaffirms her position on the show for me; she may not have a big part, but she is consistant and whenever she's given a chance, she'll shine.

The points:

Like "The Ark", this episode had a very alien feeling to it, even if the station was Lantian in design. Here is another example where the setting can make-or-break an episode (for the opposite effect, see Irresponsible). The constant bubbling water and cool, blue light really added to the isolation and danger of the whole situation.

Again, Teyla was great in this episode (I guess this week is all about the women of Stargate ;)). She maintained her strength throughout, even when she was obviously loosing to the greater mind of the queen. Once more, we see the strong, leader Teyla we've known since day 1.

Loved the little bantering near the beginning; although you're pretty much sure that the extras who talk are dead.

Speaking of which, the one big failing of the episode, as others have mentioned, is the predictableness. The ending caught me off guard at first, and then I quickly figured everything out. I think the Queen believed Teyla's little lie a little too easily. Oh well, 1) deep sea and 2) desperation to get away will do that to ya I suppose.

And about Carson: I had no problem in them not mentioning him; it's too soon and this is hardly the episode for it. Why would any of them bring up the painful memory of their dead friend in the middle of an important mission? The grieving for Danny happened in the team's off hours, and I don't think they mentioned him at all once they got drafted by Thor on their mission.

Now Vengence, yeah, they better make a big stink if Michael asks for Carson.

So, we have a cruiser now eh? If it happened more in the middle of the season, we would probably never see it again, but I think they're definately getting ready for the season finale here. IMHO, we'll be seeing the Cruiser again.

Lastly, Andee Frizzell did a great job, as usual.

Anyway, the team moments were solid, while Teyla shined. This solid episode gets...

Score: 8/10

I agree however the only predictable part was the ending ie the trick. Still I loved the eentire ep as everyone was in top form IMO. Andee always does a great job and shined again here. I agree on Carson and about Vengence I have a feeling they will similar to season 5's revelations.

Mitchell82
January 23rd, 2007, 07:58 PM
My thoughts as well. Thanks for posting this.

Someone mentioned the setting and lighting being good. I enjoyed the station's feeling also. And the close room they used to interrogate the queen was creepy.

I'm a fan of the water eps, this one no exception. They threw in a Wraith and so I'll re-watch.

I was happy to get the explanation about Teyla's mind-meld thing, specifically that she has to initiate the connection. I thought the ep used Weir and McKay dialogue well to clear up any gray areas there. And Teyla took on a queen. Opens up possibilities for the future I hope get explored. So much more to tell about the Wraith.

I was pleased with the pace. I like to hear the characters talk more than I like to see them run and shoot. Okay, well, maybe as much as I like the action.

And wet, I like them wet on occasion.

Nice visual with the jumper windscreen.

I'll watch it again.

I agree this was indeed top notch from start to finish.

Ouroboros
January 23rd, 2007, 08:07 PM
I was pleasently surprised and shocked to actually see a Wraith in this episode. I was also pleasently surprised to see that Cuperus avoided all the typical ethical traps of "heroic" torture and murder of helpless POWs some of the previous writers fell into. Once I saw that they had her tied to that table I was thinking "this is going to be the one that tops Bob, helpless woman prisoner shot in the head while tied to a table for not co-operating enough with invasive mind probes." Just as I thought I saw good old Admiral Cain nodding in approval in the shadows I was glad to see I was mistaken.

This episode wasn't a blockbuster by any means and is probably the weakest of Cuperus 3 episodes so far. That said though it was still on a whole other level from most of the rest of season 3. Why in the name of Goa'uld did they let this guy go. I know I've *****ed about this before but seeing yet another well above average ep from him amkes me feel like *****ing about it some more. He's proven he's not just a one hit wonder and he's better at writing Wraith by leaps and bounds than anyone else they have on staff. He's the only one that actually seems interested in depicting them as people on occasion, like he did here with the sad tone that went with the story of the queen's lonely prison on the ocean bottem. For all her badassing around in the episode they did set aside just a tiny bit of the 42 minutes to hint at a sympathetic side and I appreciate that. That alone makes it a stand out among the various Wraith episodes that depict them as halloween clowns and soulless moving targets, anything but feeling beings. Obviously that's unrealistic, simplistic and even somewhat disturbingly propagandistic, when talking about a species that's half human and I like that this episode tried to tip the scales a bit in the other direction for once, just like common ground did. I hope future episode somehow follow this example, even after Cuperus' boneheaded firing.

The Sweet Guy
January 23rd, 2007, 08:14 PM
I hope they pick up that cruiser or at least mention it, it would be stupid if they just forgot about it like they did with the ancient warship in Return Part 2.

Oh and I agree completely Ouroboros, Ken really knows how to write the Wraith. I hope their reason for ditching him isn't because they may be ditching the Wraith as the main villian. Its hard to tell at this point who's going to be the primary villian, what with having 2 Wraith episodes at the end of season 3. I hope they're just focusing on Asurans because they're the new guys..

Copernicus
January 23rd, 2007, 08:17 PM
I'm actually confused about some of the episode, which is odd, because I called all the plot points, just not the ending.

Originally I had expected Teyla to be acting indepedently when she used the false memory and that McKay and Sheppard would either be surprised or have been radioed ahead when Teyla recovered. This, in my opinion, would have been far more interesting for her character anyway.

Then, as the episode ended, it looked like it was planned. However, if it were planned, something about the timing doesn't add up. For starters, when McKay and Sheppard arrive the first time, there are just under 30 minutes left on the self-destruct. Forgive me if my math is too zealous, but just under 1 kilometre would be about .6 of a mile. Upon arriving, John has to pack the generator into his suit and then travel back for another .6 of a mile. We're looking at at least fifteen minutes for Sheppard to merely travel back and forth from the cruiser under normal walking conditions, though I'd estimate much longer because he is at the bottom of the ocean, which would make movement incredibly difficult. Even if McKay came up with the idea right after the just under 30 minute clock stopped, the timing simply does not work.

Also, Ken, I love your work with the rest of the characters in Atlantis, but I simply can't stand your take on McKay, which is regrettable because he is my favourite character. First season or in SG-1 maybe, but your writing of him does not jive with all the other writers. I have the somewhat dubious honour of having people note that I have a number of McKayish tendencies. My brother was calling me arrogant, petty and bad with people long before Grace Under Pressure existed, though he's usually kind enough to toss in brilliant with it, but whenever you write for McKay I feel like I have nothing in common with him.

Am I being a little self-centred to assume a random fictional character should mimic my pesonality? Probably, but the truth is that in every other episode, the questions "What would McKay do?" and "What would Copernicus do?" return with the same answer. Your episodes are a peculiar exception to this rule.

PG15
January 23rd, 2007, 08:30 PM
Hmmm...I wonder, is Ken reading this thread?

We're happy to hear your thoughts on the episode Ken! Whatever they are! :D

Mitchell82
January 23rd, 2007, 08:41 PM
Hmmm...I wonder, is Ken reading this thread?

We're happy to hear your thoughts on the episode Ken! Whatever they are! :D

I'm sure he is as most of his eps get praised by us.

Copernicus
January 23rd, 2007, 08:44 PM
I'm sure he is as most of his eps get praised by us.
We gave him a pretty tough time over The Ark. Maybe we scared him off.

Mitchell82
January 23rd, 2007, 08:47 PM
We gave him a pretty tough time over The Ark. Maybe we scared him off.

True some did but I didnt it's the same here. Not all liked the Ark and not all liked Submersion but I think a majority did though I could be wrong.

Ouroboros
January 23rd, 2007, 10:05 PM
Oh and I agree completely Ouroboros, Ken really knows how to write the Wraith. I hope their reason for ditching him isn't because they may be ditching the Wraith as the main villian. Its hard to tell at this point who's going to be the primary villian, what with having 2 Wraith episodes at the end of season 3. I hope they're just focusing on Asurans because they're the new guys..

From what I heard they're letting him go in order to make room on Atlantis for the various good 'ol boys from SG1 who'll soon be without jobs.


We gave him a pretty tough time over The Ark. Maybe we scared him off.

Aside from one little Teyla>1000 people ethical jolt, that I think was more the fault of the editing than his script, I really liked "The Ark". The main complaint I had was that it wasn't longer. What was it exactly that people were giving him a hard time about?

I gotta say I really like the guy. From what I've seen I really think his writing represented exactly the direction I'd like to see the series take. Losing him from the writing staff is a much bigger deal to me than any of the character/actor changes everyone's making such a fuss about. He was almost like a cruel tease to show that it was in fact possible to use the available material here to make a much better show than we're curently getting.

I hope wherever he ends up they appreciate his talent more.

And I'd laugh my ass completely off if it was Battlestar Galactica.

FallenAngelII
January 23rd, 2007, 10:30 PM
They've done that in other episodes, where she'll call Rodney "Rodney" and "McKay" both....she did in "Hide and Seek", I know for certain, and she has in other episodes that I can't recall off-hand. She's also done the same to Sheppard. It seems she tends to use last names when she's in her sort of professional, business-like mode....asserting her authority, so to speak. She goes to first names for a friendlier tone. But yes, she does switch back and forth.
Elizabeth hasn't called Rodney Mckay for a very long time. "Hide And Seek" was over two years ago.

ozchick
January 23rd, 2007, 11:02 PM
Have to say that I enjoyed this ep. But just once I would like to see McKay shoot something and have it die just to see the surprise on his face.

Mitchell82
January 23rd, 2007, 11:06 PM
Have to say that I enjoyed this ep. But just once I would like to see McKay shoot something and have it die just to see the surprise on his face.

LOL yeah that would be nice.

the old briar pipe
January 23rd, 2007, 11:21 PM
Liked it! :D

Rodney's trouble with names, John referencing Abyss, Ronon shooting out the window, Teyla kicking his butt, Dr. Coleman reappearing (yes, it's the little things), Elizabeth actually being on-screen. Yay!

Also, I think there was a thread somewhere about finding Ancient factories, and we did almost exactly that, only it was more like an oil refinery. But I'll take it.

The set was cool and dark, but for some odd reason the music didn't work for me, though the timing of the action itself (not pacing, but punchline-style timing) was spot on. This is, in fact, the first ep in ages that I haven't felt was as strongly enhanced by the music as it should have been. Maybe I was expecting the score for Abyss or Close Encounters, and that's too much to hope from 42 minutes of tv.

And of course the end, with Ronon lying face-down on the bed, John settling in adorkably, and Teyla balling up her jacket with intent, spoke to the three of them perfectly. It's sad that this season has emphasized how much Rodney is outside his team in many ways, but I love the closeness these three share.


I'm actually confused about some of the episode, which is odd, because I called all the plot points, just not the ending.

Originally I had expected Teyla to be acting indepedently when she used the false memory and that McKay and Sheppard would either be surprised or have been radioed ahead when Teyla recovered. This, in my opinion, would have been far more interesting for her character anyway.

Then, as the episode ended, it looked like it was planned. However, if it were planned, something about the timing doesn't add up. For starters, when McKay and Sheppard arrive the first time, there are just under 30 minutes left on the self-destruct. Forgive me if my math is too zealous, but just under 1 kilometre would be about .6 of a mile. Upon arriving, John has to pack the generator into his suit and then travel back for another .6 of a mile. We're looking at at least fifteen minutes for Sheppard to merely travel back and forth from the cruiser under normal walking conditions, though I'd estimate much longer because he is at the bottom of the ocean, which would make movement incredibly difficult. Even if McKay came up with the idea right after the just under 30 minute clock stopped, the timing simply does not work.

Here's my take:

Teyla was acting independently. She realized she was losing, or that she couldn't win, and mentally prepared herself before engaging the Wraith again. She fed the Queen false information, was tossed aside, and after she recovered, radioed Elizabeth to let her know what had happened. John and Rodney are duly informed there's a Wraith on the way, and they come up with Plan B on the fly, with Rodney insisting Shep has to be bait. The memory was, in fact, false. The scene with Teyla, Shep, and Elizabeth never happened.

Of course, this doesn't explain why Ronon let Teyla hang out alone with the Wraith, but I can't see Elizabeth letting Teyla risk herself that way if she was actually in on the plan from the beginning. Ronon being too trusting is more in character. Plus, Rodney genuinely tried to shut down the self-destruct, and they only realized they had to have a command code after he and John arrived on the ship.

FallenAngelII
January 23rd, 2007, 11:32 PM
Yes, Teyla was acting indepentely, the whole conversation she had with Elizabeth before doing her thing with the Queen shows that. It wasn't just a ruse because they were standing all the way out in the hallway (and not close to the door to the room where the Queen was being kept).

What, they were trying to trick the Queen into "overhearing" when she's heavily sedated and in another room down the hall?

Linzi
January 23rd, 2007, 11:46 PM
Can someone explain to me what Weir's purpose on the mission was? Too bad if the jumper breaks down and kills Atlantis' entire senior command staff in one go... No doubt Beckett would have been there too, if he hadn't of departed in Sunday.

Now don't get me wrong, I like Weir, but these episodes prove to me the problems they're having with Weir as a main character in writing the episodes the way they are.

I agree, and though I understand the desire to have Weir present in the episode, it just didn't make sense here. I kept wondering who was in charge back on Atlantis, and as you say, what a shame if they'd all been killed and Atlantis been left with none of its leadership!!! With Sheppard, McKay, the rest of the team AND Radek there, it just was very - strange. I don't think Weir served any purpose here at all, and though I do understand the need to include the character in stories, perhaps if her linguistic skills had been needed it would've made more sense? Then again, I still think Sheppard et al would've scouted first, made sure it was safe and then brought Weir down to the base. But, that's a small gripe on my part really.
A poster on the thead I frequent made a very valid comment which got me thinking. The end of the episode, where a jolly Weir and McKay headed off to learn some more about the drilling platform was a little peculiar. They'd lost two scientists, and surely everyone would've been a little more subdued, or at least looked a bit sorry about it all.

Chailyn
January 23rd, 2007, 11:58 PM
I like that they're exploring the planet more, including the ocean. I also liked that Teyla kicked butt (Ronon's anyway) and had something to do. RL did a good job with her lines. I think Teyla might be growing on me. :)

I thought the middle and end were a bit slow though, and, as others have mentioned, the plot was fairly predictable. I did like the opening. I also don't think Weir felt right in this episode. The team really didn't need her guiding them as the situation was pretty obvious.

The queen was also kind of disappointing. I know that she's old, but she was fairly weak. They kept going on and on about how powerful she was, but Teyla was able to trick her. Teyla has very little Wraith DNA and very little experience with their psychic powers, yet she handled a queen. I guess I want them to make the Wraith more powerful again and less easily defeated. They were a true force in S1. I like the Wraith as Atlantis's main baddies, but they need some real teeth. We shouldn't be able to constantly run all over them. But, this is more of a problem with the Atlantis Universe than with the writer, imo. I can't fault him for this.

All that said, it was okay for a filler. I was hoping to see a swimming Wraith though. :D 6/10

Oh, and I wanted a mention of Carson. It felt as if this was filmed before "Sunday". If I'm going to buy that Carson died in a filler episode because "that's life" and "life is random" and "it's realistic", then I expect them to keep with the realism. People don't get over a death so easily. That's life too. Be realistic, but don't hit the reset button when you can't follow through.

Chailyn
January 24th, 2007, 12:04 AM
The end of the episode, where a jolly Weir and McKay headed off to learn some more about the drilling platform was a little peculiar. They'd lost two scientists, and surely everyone would've been a little more subdued, or at least looked a bit sorry about it all.


If they can lose Carson and not even mention it, why would two red shirts be any different? That's the problem with trying to add realism and drama into a story--you have to actually follow it through.

Ouroboros
January 24th, 2007, 12:04 AM
Here's a good question I just thought of. Why didn't the queen feed on Teyla after getting the false information? Whoever put her in that position had to have expected that, that's what Wraith do.

Reading that "tossed aside" comment above made me think of this. What reason was there for the queen to toss Teyla aside and not feed on her? I'll bet it's the same reason she didn't just blast or stomp Ronon's head into chunky salsa after she'd KOed him with her new Teyla puppet.

See I keep telling you people that the Wraith, for all their drooling and hissing, are actually pretty generous, kind and humanitarian souls.:D

localfocus
January 24th, 2007, 12:12 AM
A poster on the thead I frequent made a very valid comment which got me thinking. The end of the episode, where a jolly Weir and McKay headed off to learn some more about the drilling platform was a little peculiar. They'd lost two scientists, and surely everyone would've been a little more subdued, or at least looked a bit sorry about it all.

Hmm, I didn't notice that. There are some odd bits of characterization here isn't there.

Something I've been thinking about. SGA is Ken's first job writing live action. When he wrote Common Ground, he submitted it as a freelancer. Therefore he had no deadlines and could work unimpeded without thinking about all the production details and overriding story arc. He could concentrate just on the story. So while Brad polished it, the underlying core of the story was already written before he was ever employed at Bridge. Working in a collaborative environment with constant deadlines is completely different.

I think what we may be seeing are beginner problems. He has great ideas and can construct a story but needs practice. Particularly with characterization (he has some characters ie Sheppard down well but other characters like Rodney are very off), starting a story (having your characters stumble in and start things willy nilly isn't the best technique, though neither the Ark or Submersion was as bad as The Long Goodbye. Instead of focusing on the characters limits, he has them make ill thought out mistakes, and there are better ways of getting our folks in trouble) And balancing character and plot. His stories are well constructed, but beyond the basic idea, predictable in development. Hopefully he can improve those things with time.

PG15
January 24th, 2007, 12:13 AM
^EDIT: Ouroboros

I guess it took time needed to get to the cruiser to keep it from blowing up. She only had 30 minutes, after all.

Lt. Colonel Ryu Gaia
January 24th, 2007, 12:16 AM
Hmmm. Not quite sure what to make of this episode. Plot and plot points are all thoroughly recycled, but the dialoue at many points is rather sharp, in spite of the episode being weak overall.

Lots of things were predictable. "Oh noes! We don't catch the Wraith on the life signs scan at first!" "Oh noes! Anyone in a secluded area who turns around will come face-to-face with a Wraith!" Shepphard: "What the hell is going on here?" (I'm pretty sure by now that it's just in his contract to say that every episode or something.) Weir: "Rodney, I want a status report." You know, because us stupid viewers need it hand-delivered to us.

I was amazed at the sheer stupidity of some of the characters, though. No one suspected that if Wraith are really all that smart as they'd need to be to get where they are, that they'd be able to take over people's minds given the chance. Wow. Pathetic. "How the hell could the queen have gotten here?" "I dunno, maybe she swam!" There are lots more plausible explanations, I'm sure.

I'll rant more later.

FallenAngelII
January 24th, 2007, 12:26 AM
I agree, and though I understand the desire to have Weir present in the episode, it just didn't make sense here. I kept wondering who was in charge back on Atlantis, and as you say, what a shame if they'd all been killed and Atlantis been left with none of its leadership!!! With Sheppard, McKay, the rest of the team AND Radek there, it just was very - strange. I don't think Weir served any purpose here at all, and though I do understand the need to include the character in stories, perhaps if her linguistic skills had been needed it would've made more sense? Then again, I still think Sheppard et al would've scouted first, made sure it was safe and then brought Weir down to the base. But, that's a small gripe on my part really.
A poster on the thead I frequent made a very valid comment which got me thinking. The end of the episode, where a jolly Weir and McKay headed off to learn some more about the drilling platform was a little peculiar. They'd lost two scientists, and surely everyone would've been a little more subdued, or at least looked a bit sorry about it all.
Good point. With Carson gone, if they lost Elizabeth, John, Rodney and Radek, they'd all be sitting ducks. What a stupid decision to have all of them go down there together.

Alipeeps
January 24th, 2007, 12:44 AM
Wasn't it established in 38 minutes that the iratus bug hated salt water? And since the wraith are very similar to the iratus bug that they would have this same hatred of salt water?

So in that case how could a Wraith Hive Queen SWIM through an ocean????


It has never been stated that the Wraith hate salt water - that's pure conjecture on the part of fans. Yes, the iratus bugs hate salt water and yes, the wraith evolved from the iratus bug... it doesn't necessarily follow that they still share all the original traits of the bug. The salt water reaction is a primitive defensive response from the bug - the wraith are rather more sophisticated than that.


The queen was also kind of disappointing. I know that she's old, but she was fairly weak. They kept going on and on about how powerful she was, but Teyla was able to trick her. Teyla has very little Wraith DNA and very little experience with their psychic powers, yet she handled a queen. I guess I want them to make the Wraith more powerful again and less easily defeated. They were a true force in S1. I like the Wraith as Atlantis's main baddies, but they need some real teeth. We shouldn't be able to constantly run all over them. But, this is more of a problem with the Atlantis Universe than with the writer, imo. I can't fault him for this.


She was heavily sedated - they made that point a couple of times.

Starxgate
January 24th, 2007, 12:44 AM
I finally got around to watching this episode. The crappy thing is this episode lead to another ship to in the end be forgotten.

Celcool
January 24th, 2007, 12:49 AM
Good point. With Carson gone, if they lost Elizabeth, John, Rodney and Radek, they'd all be sitting ducks. What a stupid decision to have all of them go down there together.
I agree that she's too precious to lose. :) But it's nice to see Elizabeth being part of the team now and then, like in Epiphany and in The Return 2. I'm glad Ken let her be a part of this mission. Besides, who would have thought that the Wraith would be down there, deep in the ocean, even Rodney couldn't believe it could be true, we could say that they didn't think this particular mission to be as dangerous, so they let Elizabeth accompany them.

Haliyah
January 24th, 2007, 01:44 AM
This was a good episode. A little...unusual, but rather intriguing.

I like how it possibly leads into the Atlantis team having the neccessary power to sink the city, raise the shields at full power, and boot up the stardrive in First Strike. There's probably a little-used ZPM in the geothermal mining platform somewhere, or a few spares...

I liked how Teyla got a good role in this episode, and the fact that Weir was there at all both surprised and pleased me. It was also interesting that they used someone other than Andee Frizzell for the Wraith Queen.

What I didn't like was that there was no mention of Carson. It's the episode after his death. You'd think that the team would still be talking about him, wishing that he were there, feeling guilty, etc. I suppose that they have to keep focussed on their missions rather than their raw emotions, but for the writers to off such a beloved character so permanently and then not speak of him...it feels...cold. Far to cold for someone as warm as Carson.

Linzi
January 24th, 2007, 02:30 AM
Here's a good question I just thought of. Why didn't the queen feed on Teyla after getting the false information? Whoever put her in that position had to have expected that, that's what Wraith do.

Reading that "tossed aside" comment above made me think of this. What reason was there for the queen to toss Teyla aside and not feed on her? I'll bet it's the same reason she didn't just blast or stomp Ronon's head into chunky salsa after she'd KOed him with her new Teyla puppet.

See I keep telling you people that the Wraith, for all their drooling and hissing, are actually pretty generous, kind and humanitarian souls.:D
I must admit I thought about that too, and wondered if she was full? She'd just had two nice large meals and maybe she didn't need to feed on anything more? That's the only thing I could come up with. We don't know how often the Wraith need to feed, but it seems to me they don't actually need to eat all that often, unless they're injured. I could be wrong there though.

jerkface
January 24th, 2007, 02:31 AM
I just finished watching this one.

The Good:
-The set was used well. As with The Ark (though perhaps not quite as effectively), it felt like a real place, and added to the closed in, dangerous mood of the episode.

-Weir and Teyla. The conversation in which Weir tries to convince Teyla she shouldn't feel guilty for her mind-controlled actions was nice, without slipping into the cheap girl/girl-sympathy-shots which sometimes take the place of character development between women on Stargate (I'm looking at you :sam: and :vala:).

-The wraith queen. She didn't seem like an idiot or a monster, in spite of her limited amount of dialogue. It's too bad we couldn't learn more about her motivations during the war. I know it probably wouldn't have been practical money- or time-wise, but it would have been nice to have seen close-ups of her face as she swam back to her ship before the final scene. This could have shown her excitement/desperation to escape to the surface (and maybe explained why she was so quick to leave Teyla without killing her). And possibly even encouraged the audience to sympathize with her in spite of themselves.

-Weir and Rodney's final interaction was good to see as well. Ignoring the lack of remorse for Grayson's and Dickinson's deaths for the moment, I'm happy to see any episode that makes use of the similarities between those two characters (and a nice trio moment between Sheppard, Ronon, and Teyla—it reminded me of their Return Part 1 scene).

The Bad:
-Why was Sheppard's team there at all? The group of scientists in the opening scenes made sense (they're there to investigate a possible power source), but then they quickly became unimportant save as wraith fodder.

I know people complained about Weir's presence, but I thought the opposite. She could offer useful linguistic skills while Sheppard, Ronon, and Teyla would have nothing to do (especially as they didn't expect any kind of physical menace, let alone a wraith). I thought it would have been a better plan to send her and Rodney across to the wraith ship, considering they knew there was no one left for Sheppard to fight over there; Weir might have been useful helping translate the ship controls for Rodney. It seems like Sheppard and McKay went just because the writers always send those two off together.

-Making two scientists (I guess two because they need to deliver dialogue to one another) into wraith fodder again. No longer interesting or meaningful. (Especially if their deaths are going to be ignored by the main cast, as per usual.)

The Despicable:
-Ignoring Carson's death. Couldn't the PTBs at least pretend they were taking this seriously? I don't really believe this casting change was for unavoidable plot reasons, but they could at least be courteous and lie to me. Have someone look sad, or mention his name. Throw me a bone, for chrissakes.

I almost thought they were alluding to his loss with the opening clips from The Gift. The one line about Dr. Beckett being there to walk her through the telepathy seemed like it was supposed to be poignant now that he isn't there...but after the maudlin close of last week's episode, I think I'm giving them too much credit to expect they'd do anything that subtle.

Linzi
January 24th, 2007, 02:31 AM
This was a good episode. A little...unusual, but rather intriguing.

I like how it possibly leads into the Atlantis team having the neccessary power to sink the city, raise the shields at full power, and boot up the stardrive in First Strike. There's probably a little-used ZPM in the geothermal mining platform somewhere, or a few spares...

I liked how Teyla got a good role in this episode, and the fact that Weir was there at all both surprised and pleased me. It was also interesting that they used someone other than Andee Frizzell for the Wraith Queen.

What I didn't like was that there was no mention of Carson. It's the episode after his death. You'd think that the team would still be talking about him, wishing that he were there, feeling guilty, etc. I suppose that they have to keep focussed on their missions rather than their raw emotions, but for the writers to off such a beloved character so permanently and then not speak of him...it feels...cold. Far to cold for someone as warm as Carson.
It was Andee Frizzell, :lol: Guess make up are doing a good job of disguising her!

Linzi
January 24th, 2007, 02:35 AM
I just finished watching this one.

The Good:
-The set was used well. As with The Ark (though perhaps not quite as effectively), it felt like a real place, and added to the closed in, dangerous mood of the episode.

-Weir and Teyla. The conversation in which Weir tries to convince Teyla she shouldn't feel guilty for her mind-controlled actions was nice, without slipping into the cheap girl/girl-sympathy-shots which sometimes take the place of character development between women on Stargate (I'm looking at you :sam: and :vala:).

-The wraith queen. She didn't seem like an idiot or a monster, in spite of her limited amount of dialogue. It's too bad we couldn't learn more about her motivations during the war. I know it probably wouldn't have been practical money- or time-wise, but it would have been nice to seen close-ups of her face as she swam back to her ship before the final scene. This could have shown her excitement/desperation to escape to the surface (and maybe explained why she was so quick to leave Teyla without killing her). And possibly even encouraged the audience to sympathize with her in spite of themselves.

-Weir and Rodney's final interaction was good to see as well. Ignoring the lack of remorse for Grayson's and Dickinson's deaths for the moment, I'm happy to see any episode that makes use of the similarities between those two characters (and a nice trio moment between Sheppard, Ronon, and Teyla—it reminded me of their Return Part 1 scene).

The Bad:
-Why was Sheppard's team there at all? The group of scientists in the opening scenes made sense (they're there to investigate a possible power source), but then they quickly became unimportant save as wraith fodder.

I know people complained about Weir's presence, but I thought the opposite. She could offer useful linguistic skills while Sheppard, Ronon, and Teyla would have nothing to do (especially as they didn't expect any kind of physical menace, let alone a wraith). I thought it would have been a better plan to send her and Rodney across to the wraith ship, considering they knew there was no one left for Sheppard to fight over there; Weir might have been useful translating the ship controls better for Rodney. It seems like Sheppard and McKay went just because the writers always send those two off together.

-Making two scientists (I guess two because they need to deliver dialogue to one another) into wraith fodder again. No longer interesting or meaningful. (Especially if their deaths are going to be ignored by the main cast, as per usual.)

The Despicable:
-Ignoring Carson's death. Couldn't the PTBs at least pretend they were taking this seriously? I don't really believe this casting change was for unavoidable plot reasons, but they could at least be courteous and lie to me. Have someone look sad, or mention his name. Throw me a bone, for chrissakes.

I almost thought they were alluding to his loss with the opening clips from The Gift. The one line about Dr. Beckett being there to walk her through the telepathy seemed like it was supposed to be poignant now that he isn't there...but after the maudlin close of last week's episode, I think I'm giving them too much credit to expect they'd do anything that subtle.
I have to say, I think an obvious place to include something about Carson would've been at the end of the episode, where Weir could've been a little down about losing two more of her expedition. She could easily have said something like: 'I can't believe we've lost two more people, especially after losing Carson...' I think that the stand alone episodes just don't reference past events often though.

Haliyah
January 24th, 2007, 02:39 AM
It was Andee Frizzell, :lol: Guess make up are doing a good job of disguising her!


O_O Really? Well then.

I watch all the new ones on YouTube; I don't get cable. Thus, no credits.:beckettanime09: :bratacanime02:

The art department is amazing.

Linzi
January 24th, 2007, 03:09 AM
O_O Really? Well then.

I watch all the new ones on YouTube; I don't get cable. Thus, no credits.:beckettanime09: :bratacanime02:

The art department is amazing.

I thought the respective art/make-up and wardrobe departments did a great job with the Wraith queen, and Andee Frizzell always does a great job, IMO.

Blower'sGate
January 24th, 2007, 03:56 AM
I really liked this episode ( The Weir/Teyla interactions were nice to see *finally* ). I truly think Ken C. did a great job here. The wraith Queen was cool ! For once, John and Rodney weren't really the ones saving the day ( I love shep and rodney but I thought it was interesting that Teyla played a good part in it ). As for Carson, I was shocked he wasn't mentioned. But maybe Submerssion was supposed to air before Sunday, wasn't it ? It's the impression I got. If he's not mentioned in Vengance then I'll get really frustrated cause there'll be a serious lack of continuity then.

Ouroboros
January 24th, 2007, 03:57 AM
O_O Really? Well then.

I watch all the new ones on YouTube; I don't get cable. Thus, no credits.:beckettanime09: :bratacanime02:

The art department is amazing.


This was just the most extensive makeup job yet it looks like. I think they did something to her jawline that completely changed her face. They almost fooled me to, until she started talking.


I must admit I thought about that too, and wondered if she was full? She'd just had two nice large meals and maybe she didn't need to feed on anything more? That's the only thing I could come up with. We don't know how often the Wraith need to feed, but it seems to me they don't actually need to eat all that often, unless they're injured. I could be wrong there though.

Even that doesn't really explain why Ronon's still alive though. She had every reason to kill him to make things easier for her to sabotage the city. Come to think of it, going by the way things had unfolded, if she had killed him she would have never been captured and likely would have succeeded in making Shep into her personal little ancient gene boy toy.

She also could have just snapped Teyla's head off to facilitate a pursuit free escape better. What was she supposed to have done with Teyla anyway, just left her standing in the room while she walked out? I don't even remember her slapping her out cold or anything.

Seems I'm now finding some pretty big plotholes in this episode I liked.:(

aiHD
January 24th, 2007, 04:07 AM
For what it's worth, I enjoyed this episode -it was like The Ark meets The Defiant One. That said, just like The Ark and many other Atlantis episodes, I couldn't shake the feeling that the script was too big for one episode.

For me, Atlantis is at its best when it features multi-episode arcs and foreshadowing - a return to the style of Season 1 (c.f. the Ancient weapons platform) would not be unwelcome. :)

Now that I've gotten that out of the way, I suppose there's only one thing left for me to say: Bates was right. Even considering the Queen was more powerful than most, I must say that I'll be disappointed if this doesn't have even minor consequences for the trust the team places in Teyla.

Vicky
January 24th, 2007, 04:17 AM
Great ep IMO.

The story was interesting and original. The bit with Teyla, I'd say that they could have suspect that 'cos it already happened but hey... Lots and lots of Elizabeth (many thanks for that), some Teyla/Elizabeth interaction (thanks again).

I really liked it, Ken C. did a really good job on this one.

Flowerbud
January 24th, 2007, 04:20 AM
Overall, a pretty good episode. The Wraith Queen was interesting and more three dimensional than previous queens. I liked the spooky, underwater feel of the setting. It was little predictable with how they defeated the Wraith queen by feeding her false information. Teyla is coming into her own and it was nice to see more interaction between Teyla and Elizabeth. I was disappointed that they didn't mention Carson.

It was great to see Elizabeth on a mission. Regarding objections to her being on missions, it's a little silly to complain about that when they have the most brilliant scientist on Atlantis who is not exactly in top physical condition regularly risking his life as part of the team. Sheppard, the Atlantis member, with the strongest ATA gene and chief military commander of Atlantis who knows all the military secrets and strategies of Atlantis expedition regularly putting his life at risk and being at risk for capture and interrogation. The viewer has to suspend reality to buy that. So, what's the big deal if Elizabeth is on a mission.

Frankly, I would love to see Elizabeth go on missions regularly. She can fill the role that Daniel fills on SG-1, namely, the one who does translations, is interested in different cultures, and advocates for the civilian point of view. The team has too much muscle. Also, Torri Higginson is such a wonderful actress and can really play up the humor in a lot of lines. Loved the bantering scene between her and Shep.

2ndgenerationalteran
January 24th, 2007, 04:30 AM
No way, we kept the new ship, and we have a new power source platform. nothing like that happened since we found the orion.

FallenAngelII
January 24th, 2007, 04:46 AM
She was heavily sedated - they made that point a couple of times.
The sedation kinda wore off by the end. She was able to swim one kilometer at the bottom of the ocean.


I agree that she's too precious to lose. :) But it's nice to see Elizabeth being part of the team now and then, like in Epiphany and in The Return 2. I'm glad Ken let her be a part of this mission. Besides, who would have thought that the Wraith would be down there, deep in the ocean, even Rodney couldn't believe it could be true, we could say that they didn't think this particular mission to be as dangerous, so they let Elizabeth accompany them.
It's not smart to put your entire senior staff on a single mission especially when they're not all needed there. Not to mention that they also brought Lorne and Radek, the 2nd in Commands. It's like asking for trouble.

It was a very dangerous mission, going underwater and entering an Ancient drilling platform no one had been on for 10,000 years. Smart people send random Red Shirts for first contact. But, noooo, the Atlantis expedition sends its entire senior staff!

Haliyah
January 24th, 2007, 04:53 AM
It was a very dangerous mission, going underwater and entering an Ancient drilling platform no one had been on for 10,000 years. Smart people send random Red Shirts for first contact. But, noooo, the Atlantis expedition sends its entire senior staff!


xD How true is that? What if it had been structurally unsound, and they'd all been crushed? Atlantis (and Earth) would be screwed.

prion
January 24th, 2007, 05:08 AM
Wasn't it established in 38 minutes that the iratus bug hated salt water? And since the wraith are very similar to the iratus bug that they would have this same hatred of salt water?


Yeah, the bug didn't like salt water. There's been no evidence Wraith react badly to salt water. That's just been a fan theory. Remember, there's a big difference between the bugs and the actual wraith.


The sedation kinda wore off by the end. She was able to swim one kilometer at the bottom of the ocean.


It's not smart to put your entire senior staff on a single mission especially when they're not all needed there. Not to mention that they also brought Lorne and Radek, the 2nd in Commands. It's like asking for trouble.

It was a very dangerous mission, going underwater and entering an Ancient drilling platform no one had been on for 10,000 years. Smart people send random Red Shirts for first contact. But, noooo, the Atlantis expedition sends its entire senior staff!

It's a typical Star Trek thing to endanger the entire senior staff. ;) I didn't see Lorne there, just Zelenka. The thing is if you just send red shirts, soon you'll get a big revolt from the lower class scientists who will refuse to leave the base at all. Burning pitchforks all around! ;)

TV shows don't always demonstrate logic, but then if you look at real life government, well, they don't either.

prion
January 24th, 2007, 05:14 AM
I just finished watching this one.

[B]The Bad:
-Making two scientists (I guess two because they need to deliver dialogue to one another) into wraith fodder again. No longer interesting or meaningful. (Especially if their deaths are going to be ignored by the main cast, as per usual.)

The Despicable:
-Ignoring Carson's death. Couldn't the PTBs at least pretend they were taking this seriously? I don't really believe this casting change was for unavoidable plot reasons, but they could at least be courteous and lie to me. Have someone look sad, or mention his name. Throw me a bone, for chrissakes.



Well, next time they can kill three scientists.... ;)

As for Beckett, wel, he'll remain in the beginning credits, and when they reportedly introduce Dr. Keller in one of the remaining (now two) episodes, Beckett sure had better get a mention. TPTB aren't known for throwing bones to the fans. Teasing them with the promise of one, yes, but not giving it to us.

Also, if this episode was filmed before "Sunday," (thinking of the scrambled production numbers), Carson might technically have still been alive, but I don't want to get into that 'out of order' argument.

MechaThor
January 24th, 2007, 05:35 AM
Another Great Episode heres my views...

Good:
-Deep Sea mining platform looked sweet
-Under water suits = cool
-Rodney and zelenka in the back of the jumper arguing and getting Ronan angrey. lol
-They guy hows name rodney 4got
-Teyla doing something
-Wraith ep at last. Keeping the true and coolest bad guys alive.
- Ronan missing the shoting the window. Cool effect.
-Remarks about the Abyss film.
-Swimming wraith
-"yes lets go towards the gun shots" lol

Bad:
-They always get trapped in places. First Atlantis, then a super volcano planet, then a luna starbase, now this
-Where was the 2nd dead guy? was he infact dead?
- Did we get the ship?
- Would the Whales not have known about the wraith?
-Would the Wraith not feed on the whales as that would have been cool! Then we could of had half wraith half fish things. lol
-The whole "it just so happens to be super fine crust here meaning a lrager exsplosion blah blah blah"

Overall
-8/10

Pitry
January 24th, 2007, 05:40 AM
And about Carson: I had no problem in them not mentioning him; it's too soon and this is hardly the episode for it. Why would any of them bring up the painful memory of their dead friend in the middle of an important mission? The grieving for Danny happened in the team's off hours, and I don't think they mentioned him at all once they got drafted by Thor on their mission.


Hmpf. Have to disagree.
If the audience enjoyed the character of Carson, they should also be "mourning" for him - and the way for the audience to be mourning for him is to see the rest of their characters as they deal with the less. I completely disagree Daniel's death in Meridian was dealt in the off hours - and even while there were mentions of it during the mission as well, even when it was mentioned in their off hours, it was seen on screen. That's the important issue. Carson's death should be mentioned on screen, whether in an off-time scenario or within a mission.

rarocks24
January 24th, 2007, 06:18 AM
How exactly could you fit in Carson with a deep sea drilling expedition? Carson very rarely went on away missions....I understand not mentioning him in this episode. Now if they don't mention he's dead in the next episode, well, I'll be seriously dissappointed.

J_B
January 24th, 2007, 07:16 AM
It's not as much about keeping her alive their unwillingness to even consider making a deal with her that if she helped them all live, they'd let her go.

Such a deal would be reasonable considering they were all about to die.

It wouldn't be reasonable because it'd be impossible for them to live up to their end of the bargain.

She came on, took control of Teyla. The two red-shirts she could have got a ton of crap out of as well when feeding on them.

So they make a deal. There are only 2 ways in which to do it.

1. Is have the Queen give you her code. You then goto the Cruiser & input it. After that, you could just kill her. So you think she'd have gone for that. Give away her only leverage, I don't.

2. Is have the Wraith Queen swim back over to the Cruiser, then 2 people walk back over with her. She then enters it in herself. Again once it's done, she would require them to fix her Cruiser or swim back over to the station & let them shuttle her up to Atlantis. Firdtly, she could swim, while the others could only slow walk on the bottom of the ocean. She could move much quicker that them, they could fire on her because at that pressure, the guns would have been crushed pretty quickly. Even if they weren't bullets cannot go far undewater, nor with any proper force. So she could have got away from them at will. They weren't going to trust her that way, especially since she could control them virtually at will had she chosen to. This means, she could get them over to the Cruiser, have them see if they could fix it. If not, have them assume character, go back to the station & get a power source, then bring it back. She feeds on them & takes off in the Cruiser.

None of them are viable, if they had trusted her & let her go. She knows Atlantis still exists. Hence theya re not going to let a Wraith away with that sort of knowledge. Michael got away first time around & alrerted other Wraith to it;s existence. What do you think a Queen, that managed all those ships during the Lanteans wars would do to get herself back in the game!


I believe if Mckay had his trusty Ancient/Wraith/Earth/Goa'uld tech tablet pc on him he could have brute forced the code. The code only had six digits, making it easily crackable. To illustrate this, WEP is extraordinarily vulnerable to cracking, and it's 8-10 digits long. The Queen was going to live, had she not threatened Sheppard, she might have lived. But then again, she was trapped under the ocean for 10,000 years. We're trusting her to be sane.

It's possible it had a filsafe to prevent any multiple unauthorised tries. Just like forums, you screw your pass up 5 times or whatever & you get locked out. Others such as banks. paypal etc. You put in wrongly 3 times & you have to go through all those steps to prove your identity to have the login details reset. So had he started putting them in randomly, it may have set of the self destruct instantly.


What did she want?? I think it was obvious - she told Sheppard that he will pilot the ship and return her to her people. She was with VERY clear mind and didn't intent to die.
If they had a deal with her and provided her with a transport to another world what did she do??? First she will have to fight with another Queens. This act will only deepened the civil war.
And what if she reveal the existance of Atlantis??? What profit she will gain from this fact? In a moment when the Wraith are canabalizing each other do you think any Queen will risk her Hive to be damaged or even destroyed if she began a new war with Atlantis?? The risk another Queen to conquer her teritory and humans while she is fighting with the Lanteans...

After that, she was willing to die in the explosion also. If they had given her transport, Atlantis would have been under another siege. This time, it'd be impossible to get out of because they wouldn't fall twice for that cloak trick again. She seemed to be one of the main Queens, someone of great importance during the war with the Lanteans. So I'm sure such a person only needed to go back to her location & she would be accepted back. Especially with all of the ones she led during the battle campaigns.

Not to mention if they were all gone. What better way to pledge her allegiance to a rival Queen than giving her such details that Atlantis still remains. Would get her on the good side. Just long enough to come up with a plan to take out the Queen & assume top position herself. If you talk about damaged ships, then what about 'The Siege II'. 3 ships are sent, when they are destroyed, 12 more are sent. Atlantis is their last hope of getting to a new feeding ground. Thus it's in their common interests to put all rivalries temporarily aside when they all have the same goal. Petty things such as fighting for terriroties can be shown up to be totally irrelevant especially when if they work together they can get to a new place with billions & billions of new lives for them to feed on.

She is not going to risk anybody taking her territory because she's been gone 10,000 years. Hence all that used to be hers are long gone. Either destroyed in the war, or taken by another Queen in her abscence. So she had nothing to lose if she got away freely! However the Atlantis team had everything to lose.

BJX
January 24th, 2007, 08:07 AM
Not the best episode at all, and that makes it all the more dissapointing because I thought this was going to be something special.

It started off pretty well, and I mean the first 5 minutes, then absolutely nothing of worth happened until about 10 minutes from the end where a bit of urgency was finally introduced but unfortunately the resolution was totally uninspired. Between that we had to sit through the almost unsufferably boring stuff about Teyla trying to connect with the Wraith and seeing the characters walking down the exact same corridor time and time again.

The episode proved to me yet again why I am absolutely delighted that the Wraith are no longer going to be the primary villain and that Teyla is seriously boring character when an episode focuses on her.

If it weren't for Irresistible, this would easily be the worst of the year.

Prior_of_the_Ori
January 24th, 2007, 09:48 AM
I liked the episode and nice to see another 'appearance' from a Hive Queen. This one was interesting and personally I wonder what happened to the 'alliance' of Wraith. I mean are the previous Queens part of this alliance or are there future Queens with a grudge out there? And damn, are the Wraith tough, to swim from the bottom of the sea when nothing human could survive? Wow....
Don't know why Rodney dismissed the idea of a Wraith not appearing on sensors since season 1 showed another Wraith who survived by hibernating.

The mining platform was also an interesting concept. Nice to see some developments made on the planet by the Lanteans without it just being city ship and thats all. I wish we could have seen more of it but wasnt really the plot to see it. The Lantean 'deep sea' suits looked a bit weird and not very... something an ancient advanced race would have used but meh.

Anyone want to place odds on when will Atlantis lose the cruiser?

prion
January 24th, 2007, 09:53 AM
Bad:
-They always get trapped in places. First Atlantis, then a super volcano planet, then a luna starbase, now this
-Where was the 2nd dead guy? was he infact dead?
- Did we get the ship?
- Would the Whales not have known about the wraith?
-Would the Wraith not feed on the whales as that would have been cool! Then we could of had half wraith half fish things. lol
-The whole "it just so happens to be super fine crust here meaning a lrager exsplosion blah blah blah"

Overall
-8/10

wraith only eat people. Remember when they caught 'steve,' he woudln't eat anything else offered him. Definitely persnickety eaters ;)

If there weren't any whales in the vicinity, and she'd been hibernating, don't think the whales would have known.

I hope we got the ship. Really do.

Oh, SG teams are always getting trapped. It's in the really, really fine print when they sign up for this stuff "You will be trapped in alien places facing imminent demise." ;)

J_B
January 24th, 2007, 10:27 AM
I personally don't think it was anywhere near as bad as soom have suggested. In fact I think it was one of the better eps of the season.

Sure it had pretty much the same premise as 'The Defiant One' (Wraith from 10,000 years ago, left alone on a crash landed ship. Fed upon their crew over the millenia to stay alive. Witing for help that never arrived. Even down to the 2 red-shirt scientists getting fed upon), with a little bit of 'Critical Mass' (Race against time to find a code in which to stop a large explosion that would destroy pretty much everything around the blast zone) thrown in for good measure.

However it was much better to me than a lot of the previous eps such as 'Irresistable', 'Irresponsible', 'The Ark', 'The Game', 'Phantoms' etc.

It was a good filler ep. Probably could have been made more interesting if they perhaps included a few more Wraith alongside the Queen where the team are outnumbered & helpless as the Wraith take control of the station & repair their ship. Maybe have the Queen take total control of a couple of the expedition, had them do her bidding & forced Shep or Ronon to kill them etc.

Maybe if they kept her alive also. They had the plan to trick her already set. So with that foresight already established. They should have took Ronon's gun with them & set it to stun. This way after she had took the self-destruct off, McKay could have came out & stunned her ass. She seemed important, so probably had good information in regards to Wraith, including strategy, technology etc, etc.

Only real point that bugged me was the fact that this Queen was supposedly uber strong mentally. The strongest that Teyla had ever encountered. Sedated or not, there is no way she could have been able to hide the real truth from her about the proper plan.

Would love to see how they develop the Cruiser thing (If they decide to ever follow up on it at all). Will they wire up a generator & fly it out of the ocean. If that was only them trash talking to the Queen, then see them devote a S4 ep to them raising it off the ocean floor. Maybe with the help of beaming tech or whatever. Then once it's up, have them cannibalise the systems to put on a shield, 304 hyperdrive, rail guns etc. Hopefully that will be resolved & not left in limbo like so many other things from Atlantis' past eps. Even if it's only stripping the energy cannons off & putting them on Daedalus.

Chailyn
January 24th, 2007, 10:29 AM
She was heavily sedated - they made that point a couple of times.

Yes, she was sedated. I got that. But how did she get sedated? She got knocked out when the water rushed in and stayed unconscious while Ronon and Shep shook it off without a scratch. She just fed. Shouldn't she have been able to take a little knock if Shep and Ronon were able to? Shep said it took a lot of bullets to kill her, right? After all "I've never sensed one so powerful" or something like that. Getting her captured and heavily sedated for Teyla was purely a plot point, imo. I think that was also when the episode started to get boring, imo. Walking down hallways, Teyla talks to the queen, walking down hallways, Teyla still wants to talk to the queen...lots of talking and walking.

I kinda wanted to see the queen get away, then Atlantis would have a new, powerful enemy and we'd get the Wraith back in the show. I did think this queen was more complex than the ones we've seen in the past. It sounded like she felt fear and even a little depression--besides the normal hatred. :)

bluealien
January 24th, 2007, 10:55 AM
Overall, a pretty good episode. The Wraith Queen was interesting and more three dimensional than previous queens. I liked the spooky, underwater feel of the setting. It was little predictable with how they defeated the Wraith queen by feeding her false information. Teyla is coming into her own and it was nice to see more interaction between Teyla and Elizabeth. I was disappointed that they didn't mention Carson.

It was great to see Elizabeth on a mission. Regarding objections to her being on missions, it's a little silly to complain about that when they have the most brilliant scientist on Atlantis who is not exactly in top physical condition regularly risking his life as part of the team. Sheppard, the Atlantis member, with the strongest ATA gene and chief military commander of Atlantis who knows all the military secrets and strategies of Atlantis expedition regularly putting his life at risk and being at risk for capture and interrogation. The viewer has to suspend reality to buy that. So, what's the big deal if Elizabeth is on a mission.

Frankly, I would love to see Elizabeth go on missions regularly. She can fill the role that Daniel fills on SG-1, namely, the one who does translations, is interested in different cultures, and advocates for the civilian point of view. The team has too much muscle. Also, Torri Higginson is such a wonderful actress and can really play up the humor in a lot of lines. Loved the bantering scene between her and Shep.


Weirs role is to run Atlantis and not to participate in missions unless she is specifically going to negotiate with new allies. She has a team of people who undertake all such tasks - exploring, finding new technology or making first contact. Why would she accompany them on a mission of exploration and take the entire senior staff with her. This seems rather foolhardy. Daniel Jackson was not the leader of the SGC therefore you cannot compare him to Weir. Weir is the equivalent of Hammond or Landry, she oversee the safety of Atlantis - how can she do that if she is off exploring. Putting her on the team just to give her screentime is not really a very good way of using her character.

FoolishPleasure
January 24th, 2007, 11:10 AM
Weirs role is to run Atlantis and not to participate in missions unless she is specifically going to negotiate with new allies. She has a team of people who undertake all such tasks - exploring, finding new technology or making first contact. Why would she accompany them on a mission of exploration and take the entire senior staff with her. This seems rather foolhardy. Daniel Jackson was not the leader of the SGC therefore you cannot compare him to Weir. Weir is the equivalent of Hammond or Landry, she oversee the safety of Atlantis - how can she do that if she is off exploring. Putting her on the team just to give her screentime is not really a very good way of using her character.

If we get nit-picky, technically Sheppard is in Hammond's position as head of the military side of the base. Weir isn't military and though she is boss of everything, Sheppard is the military CO. He shouldn't be going off on all these dangerous missions either. If he died, who would take his spot? Lorne isn't always there, neither is Caldwell, so who? Some junior Lt.? You don't see base CO's going off on missions. They delegate. ;)

But, like Star Trek, where the Capt., 2nd in command, chief engineer, and head doctor are always gone at the same time, its just a plot device to get all our regs in the same dangerous place. Now, if our SGA writers were in the same class as JMS or Whedon, we might get a different (and better) angle. Of course, we'd also have better developed female characters too (and I'm not talking bra size). ;)

LiveLongAndProsper
January 24th, 2007, 11:55 AM
If we get nit-picky, technically Sheppard is in Hammond's position as head of the military side of the base. Weir isn't military and though she is boss of everything, Sheppard is the military CO. He shouldn't be going off on all these dangerous missions either. If he died, who would take his spot? Lorne isn't always there, neither is Caldwell, so who? Some junior Lt.? You don't see base CO's going off on missions. They delegate. ;)


Actually, since Atlantis is a 'civilian' operation, I've always believed Dr. Weir fills Hammond's, or now Landry's, position. She does not answer to the SGC, as she's pointed out to Col. Caldwell, but rather the President and IOA.

Although Sheppard is the military CO, since Atlantis is civilian, it's always appeared he's more like O'Neill, the main team leader, though he has additional responsibilities at commander of the base. He's the senior military officer, but Dr. Weir is in charge and approves the missions as Landry does.

the old briar pipe
January 24th, 2007, 12:24 PM
Yes, she was sedated. I got that. But how did she get sedated? She got knocked out when the water rushed in and stayed unconscious while Ronon and Shep shook it off without a scratch. She just fed. Shouldn't she have been able to take a little knock if Shep and Ronon were able to? Shep said it took a lot of bullets to kill her, right? After all "I've never sensed one so powerful" or something like that. Getting her captured and heavily sedated for Teyla was purely a plot point, imo.

My personal theory is that she was hit on the head by a large fish. ;)

No, seriously, I think Ronon shot her before she could get up. Just like some other things events in the ep (like Teyla radioing Weir to say the Wraith was on her way back to the cruiser), this one never appeared on screen.

Remember, people who are limp (or mind-controlled, or farther away from the flood and see it coming) are more likely to survive accidents! :D


I kinda wanted to see the queen get away, then Atlantis would have a new, powerful enemy and we'd get the Wraith back in the show. I did think this queen was more complex than the ones we've seen in the past. It sounded like she felt fear and even a little depression--besides the normal hatred. :)

Yeah, this was by far the rockingest queen we've seen. She was even more sympathetic than the Wraith in Defiant One, though possibly not more than the one in CG. Ken C does a bang-up job with Wraith. *tips hat*

LoveConquers
January 24th, 2007, 12:24 PM
I must admit I thought about that too, and wondered if she was full? She'd just had two nice large meals and maybe she didn't need to feed on anything more? That's the only thing I could come up with. We don't know how often the Wraith need to feed, but it seems to me they don't actually need to eat all that often, unless they're injured. I could be wrong there though.


Or perhaps there is more to the story of Teyla that we don't yet know. For whatever reason, Ronon cannot be fed on. We have yet to know why and why they haven't tried to figure out what in him makes him "immune," if you will, is beyond me. It's a part of his story that is yet to be told.

But perhaps there is more to Teyla's story that is also yet to be told. Perhaps there is a reason why more than once a wraith has pulled back their hand to feed, but then hesitated and stopped.

Just throwing out more theories! :)

the old briar pipe
January 24th, 2007, 01:06 PM
Or perhaps there is more to the story of Teyla that we don't yet know. For whatever reason, Ronon cannot be fed on. We have yet to know why and why they haven't tried to figure out what in him makes him "immune," if you will, is beyond me. It's a part of his story that is yet to be told.

Do we know for a fact that he can't be fed on, or are there other possibilities? Could he be like that last chocolate in the Godiva box, the one that you want to savor? Or is he just really tough and that bad*** Wraith dude wanted a good chase, like bear-baiters picking the largest target?


But perhaps there is more to Teyla's story that is also yet to be told. Perhaps there is a reason why more than once a wraith has pulled back their hand to feed, but then hesitated and stopped.

I like this idea. Though her ancestors were created to be a "more compatible" food source, we don't know what that really means or whether it worked. But if she's been carrying the secret to Wraith immunity around in her blood all this time, I think Carson's going to roll over in his grave trying to kick himself.

As for a complaint others have made, is it possible that McKay was a little "off" in this ep because he was in mourning for Carson? Since he was the one least able to deal in Sunday.

localfocus
January 24th, 2007, 01:17 PM
Do we know for a fact that he can't be fed on, or are there other possibilities? Could he be like that last chocolate in the Godiva box, the one that you want to savor? Or is he just really tough and that bad*** Wraith dude wanted a good chase, like bear-baiters picking the largest target?
I've always wondered about that. Everyone assumes it's because they couldn't, I guess because the wraith started feeding and then stopped. But maybe they stopped because they realized Ronon's strength?


As for a complaint others have made, is it possible that McKay was a little "off" in this ep because he was in mourning for Carson? Since he was the one least able to deal in Sunday.
Maybe. I like that idea :) I'm at the fanw**k stage of viewing. ;)

Linzi
January 24th, 2007, 01:46 PM
Actually, since Atlantis is a 'civilian' operation, I've always believed Dr. Weir fills Hammond's, or now Landry's, position. She does not answer to the SGC, as she's pointed out to Col. Caldwell, but rather the President and IOA.

Although Sheppard is the military CO, since Atlantis is civilian, it's always appeared he's more like O'Neill, the main team leader, though he has additional responsibilities at commander of the base. He's the senior military officer, but Dr. Weir is in charge and approves the missions as Landry does.
Agreed :)

FoolishPleasure
January 24th, 2007, 01:58 PM
Although Sheppard is the military CO, since Atlantis is civilian, it's always appeared he's more like O'Neill, the main team leader, though he has additional responsibilities at commander of the base. He's the senior military officer, but Dr. Weir is in charge and approves the missions as Landry does.
O'Neill was only in command of his team - SG1. Sheppard isn't just CO of his team, but the CO for the entire military base housed in Atlantis. Since he is the senior military officer, commanding ALL teams/units, he shouldn't be leaving either. Its nit-picky because our writers don't pay attention to military protocol on SGA anyway.

LoveConquers
January 24th, 2007, 02:02 PM
Do we know for a fact that he can't be fed on, or are there other possibilities? Could he be like that last chocolate in the Godiva box, the one that you want to savor? Or is he just really tough and that bad*** Wraith dude wanted a good chase, like bear-baiters picking the largest target?

.

LOL! My understanding is that we simply don't know yet, which is why I said there's a part of his story yet to be told. But very true, we don't know if it's because he couldn't be fed on or if they didn't want to feed on him for some reason. We know there are other runners out there. But we don't know why they are made into runners instead of lunch.
From the scene in Runner I believe it is, we see the wraith start to feed with a smug grin and then made a grimace or frown of sorts and stop. It seems something wasn't right beyond just Ronon's strength to make that wraith stop. In fact we know they prefer strength based on their comments. Maybe he tasted bad. :D Who knows! But I hope we do find out someday!

Same for Teyla! We know they eat each other, so it's not necessarily her wraith DNA, but perhaps something else. It makes for interesting possibilites I think! And I hope we see them further explored.

alaskannut
January 24th, 2007, 02:04 PM
Goof #1: At first, the force fields freeze people in their tracks and then throw them backwards (Ronon sure did a big leap backwards), as if electrocuted, but when Rodney and Radek put the force field up around the docking area, Rodney could touch it, he wasn't phazed at all.

Goof #2: Why would a Wraith Queen be leading a great fleet attacking Atlantis from a Wraith cruiser?!

Goof #3: Since when does Elizabeth ever call Rodney by McKay?

Goof #4: Why the Hell didn't the Queen kill Ronon when she was controlling Teyla? And why didn't she feed on Teyla when she got out of her restrains? Obvious "We can't kill our main characters" plot holes.
It's not entirely unknown for admirals to command their forces from cruiser type vessels--it actually happened fairly often during WW2. Why? I'm guessing because they're less conspicuous targets and if necessary they can hang back from the battle line without significantly degrading the fleet's combat capability.

Suzotchka
January 24th, 2007, 03:33 PM
I have to say that I enjoyed this episode. Sure, it wasn't the best, but it was far from the worst.

I loved the way everyone had screen time. Even Zelenka was there!

And wet!Shep! Probably the best part of the whole episode. :sheppard:

Ruined_puzzle
January 24th, 2007, 03:36 PM
FP you are made of AWESOME :)
I would give you green but I can't.

scarimor
January 24th, 2007, 03:41 PM
Spooky for a while there :D I enjoyed this episode. It had a dark, claustrophobic quality to it. Teyla was damn fine - a good performance by RL.

Did McKay hire the wrong guy for the Atlantis expedition because he got the names confused? Eeesh.

Yagami_Light
January 24th, 2007, 03:44 PM
I agree, and though I understand the desire to have Weir present in the episode, it just didn't make sense here. I kept wondering who was in charge back on Atlantis, and as you say, what a shame if they'd all been killed and Atlantis been left with none of its leadership!!! With Sheppard, McKay, the rest of the team AND Radek there, it just was very - strange.

I used to muse about this with the various Star Trek shows. Who are our off-shift people? Yeah we're intimate with our 7-3's, but what about our 3-11's and 11-7's?


It's not as much about keeping her alive their unwillingness to even consider making a deal with her that if she helped them all live, they'd let her go.

Such a deal would be reasonable considering they were all about to die.

On the one hand their are security risks if she finds out Atlantis is there. Actually, since she's just been trapped on the planet, if her sensors are worth a damn she may already know. I need to watch it one more time for that angle, but still- it is a concern. Also, unlike the CG Wraith, this one had just killed two of the crew. The Wraith may be thinking "I was hungry, what?" To the humans they lost comrades. It's a matter of perspective, but it isn't unreasonable that they wouldn't be looking to open up friendly chat with something that snuck around, attacked, and killed members of their crew (even if they were "expendable").

The only thing I don't get is why they went with the plan they did before a "cooperation" or "feigned cooperation" kind of plan was considered.

Ronnikins
January 24th, 2007, 03:50 PM
Or perhaps there is more to the story of Teyla that we don't yet know. For whatever reason, Ronon cannot be fed on. We have yet to know why and why they haven't tried to figure out what in him makes him "immune," if you will, is beyond me. It's a part of his story that is yet to be told.

But perhaps there is more to Teyla's story that is also yet to be told. Perhaps there is a reason why more than once a wraith has pulled back their hand to feed, but then hesitated and stopped.

Just throwing out more theories! :)

Hmmm, I like your theories. :) I have enjoyed the way Ronon and Teyla have developed more 3-dimensionally this season. Hope we'll see more in Season 4.
Always wondered why Ronon couldn't be fed upon.


I just finished watching this one.

Under spoilers for size:

The Good:
-The set was used well. As with The Ark (though perhaps not quite as effectively), it felt like a real place, and added to the closed in, dangerous mood of the episode.

-Weir and Teyla. The conversation in which Weir tries to convince Teyla she shouldn't feel guilty for her mind-controlled actions was nice, without slipping into the cheap girl/girl-sympathy-shots which sometimes take the place of character development between women on Stargate (I'm looking at you :sam: and :vala:).

-The wraith queen. She didn't seem like an idiot or a monster, in spite of her limited amount of dialogue. It's too bad we couldn't learn more about her motivations during the war. I know it probably wouldn't have been practical money- or time-wise, but it would have been nice to have seen close-ups of her face as she swam back to her ship before the final scene. This could have shown her excitement/desperation to escape to the surface (and maybe explained why she was so quick to leave Teyla without killing her). And possibly even encouraged the audience to sympathize with her in spite of themselves.

-Weir and Rodney's final interaction was good to see as well. Ignoring the lack of remorse for Grayson's and Dickinson's deaths for the moment, I'm happy to see any episode that makes use of the similarities between those two characters (and a nice trio moment between Sheppard, Ronon, and Teyla—it reminded me of their Return Part 1 scene).

The Bad:
-Why was Sheppard's team there at all? The group of scientists in the opening scenes made sense (they're there to investigate a possible power source), but then they quickly became unimportant save as wraith fodder.

I know people complained about Weir's presence, but I thought the opposite. She could offer useful linguistic skills while Sheppard, Ronon, and Teyla would have nothing to do (especially as they didn't expect any kind of physical menace, let alone a wraith). I thought it would have been a better plan to send her and Rodney across to the wraith ship, considering they knew there was no one left for Sheppard to fight over there; Weir might have been useful helping translate the ship controls for Rodney. It seems like Sheppard and McKay went just because the writers always send those two off together.

-Making two scientists (I guess two because they need to deliver dialogue to one another) into wraith fodder again. No longer interesting or meaningful. (Especially if their deaths are going to be ignored by the main cast, as per usual.)

The Despicable:
-Ignoring Carson's death. Couldn't the PTBs at least pretend they were taking this seriously? I don't really believe this casting change was for unavoidable plot reasons, but they could at least be courteous and lie to me. Have someone look sad, or mention his name. Throw me a bone, for chrissakes.

I almost thought they were alluding to his loss with the opening clips from The Gift. The one line about Dr. Beckett being there to walk her through the telepathy seemed like it was supposed to be poignant now that he isn't there...but after the maudlin close of last week's episode, I think I'm giving them too much credit to expect they'd do anything that subtle.



Again under spoilers for size Overall, a pretty good episode. The Wraith Queen was interesting and more three dimensional than previous queens. I liked the spooky, underwater feel of the setting. It was little predictable with how they defeated the Wraith queen by feeding her false information. Teyla is coming into her own and it was nice to see more interaction between Teyla and Elizabeth. I was disappointed that they didn't mention Carson.

It was great to see Elizabeth on a mission. Regarding objections to her being on missions, it's a little silly to complain about that when they have the most brilliant scientist on Atlantis who is not exactly in top physical condition regularly risking his life as part of the team. Sheppard, the Atlantis member, with the strongest ATA gene and chief military commander of Atlantis who knows all the military secrets and strategies of Atlantis expedition regularly putting his life at risk and being at risk for capture and interrogation. The viewer has to suspend reality to buy that. So, what's the big deal if Elizabeth is on a mission.

Frankly, I would love to see Elizabeth go on missions regularly. She can fill the role that Daniel fills on SG-1, namely, the one who does translations, is interested in different cultures, and advocates for the civilian point of view. The team has too much muscle. Also, Torri Higginson is such a wonderful actress and can really play up the humor in a lot of lines. Loved the bantering scene between her and Shep.

I was going to post pretty much the same post as the above, so I'll just have to say, ITA. :D

Other random notes:

*Yay! Finally, a Teyla-centric episode and a good one at that. Long overdue. Kudos to RL's acting.
I'm not bothering to over-analyse too much these days and just go with my gut feeling whether I enjoyed it or not. Sometimes, too much nit-picking can take the joy out of an episode. Sure there were still plot-holes, not the best episode for the season but I still enjoyed it. It was a bit different and it was good to see that the Wraith have not been forgotten.

*I really don't care whether it felt "off" for Weir to be in this episode or not. A lot, and I mean A LOT, of things didn't make sense in the Stargate universe in the last 10 years but we just go along with it on face value and try and enjoy the ride.
We haven't seen much of her in the back half of the season so I, for one, was glad to have her there for more than one or two scenes, especially, since, you know, Season 4 stuff. She made good use of the lines she did get. Gentle snark and that little Shep/Weir banter? Gotta love it.

*Many, many Weir/Teyla scenes. Their friendship and trust beautifully portrayed on screen. Honestly, if I was inclined that way I would say Weyla all the way, they're so sweet together.

*The trekkie in me loved that line with the two redshirt scientists talking about McKay getting their names wrong.
"Maybe we should call him Dr. McCoy instead?" LOL!

*Poor Ronon. He's been whumped twice by Teyla now, and if I'm not mistaken, in the same area? *Ahem*
In fact, he got whumped a lot in this episode. No wonder he was not happy.

*Poor Shep too. Thunkers and Whumpers would have been happy with that PJ fight scene with the Hive queen. I know I wasn't complaining. :P
Kudos to "teh hair" for still looking so damn good despite having half the ocean trying to drown it. Oh, the rest of wet!Shep wasn't bad either.

*It's a shame that they didn't mention Carson but I wasn't particularly surprised by it.

All in all, not bad at all.

LiveLongAndProsper
January 24th, 2007, 04:02 PM
O'Neill was only in command of his team - SG1. Sheppard isn't just CO of his team, but the CO for the entire military base housed in Atlantis. Since he is the senior military officer, commanding ALL teams/units, he shouldn't be leaving either. Its nit-picky because our writers don't pay attention to military protocol on SGA anyway.

I acknowledged his additional duties as military CO when I compared him to O'Neill. On SG-1, Jack took meetings and reports from other SG team leaders while still reporting to Hammond. Aside from Hammond, he was the senior military officer at the mountain.

The expedition, having started as civilian, has a skewed chain of command. In Rising, it's Dr. Weir who encourages Sheppard to pick a team, meaning she expected him to have off-world missions. Dr. Weir seems secure with having Sheppard on an away team; she probably has determined a chain-of-command, which includes Lorne and other as-yet-unseen officers. I think it's nit-picky of fandom to get hung up on such matters. SGA is hardly the first and only show to pick and choose which protocols they'll depict.

I, too, question why Dr. Weir accompanied on the mission in Submersion, since they didn't know if the facility was even useful initially. I agree it was probably the only way to insure screen time for the character, and while I'm okay with that, I don't think she was necessary there. I very much enjoyed her scenes with Teyla, though.

I still see Dr. Weir as the head of the base, like Hammond/Landry. We'll simply have to agree to disagree.

Wilson3Girl
January 24th, 2007, 04:09 PM
My personal theory is that she was hit on the head by a large fish. ;)

LOL! Interesting theory! :)
I was never that big a Ronon fan, but he's been growing on me more and more with each episode. I heart him. :o


Wilson3Girl

Oka
January 24th, 2007, 04:14 PM
This episode was boring.

Falcon Horus
January 24th, 2007, 04:19 PM
Acquired the episode, watched the episode and enjoyed it very much.

It wasn't a fast-paced action packed episode, nor was it slow-paced and boring. It held a nice middle, so I can say I enjoyed it.

I loved the heavily featuring part of Teyla. And the little moments between Teyla and Elizabeth.
Poor Ronon, getting his ass kicked by such a little girl. His ego must be seriously bruised by now ... and without a doubt a few other bodyparts as well.

And one scary queen, who thought she was invincible and lost the game of poker they played.
I loved the battle of minds between Teyla and the Wraith.

Yeah, this was another episode I can file away under 'Me likes', still it's only the 4th one of the second part of season 3 that's in there. Hopefully more to come with the last two episodes of the season.

Alipeeps
January 24th, 2007, 04:26 PM
It's not smart to put your entire senior staff on a single mission especially when they're not all needed there. Not to mention that they also brought Lorne and Radek, the 2nd in Commands. It's like asking for trouble.

It was a very dangerous mission, going underwater and entering an Ancient drilling platform no one had been on for 10,000 years. Smart people send random Red Shirts for first contact. But, noooo, the Atlantis expedition sends its entire senior staff!

At the end of the day though, no matter what justification in terms of plot we might think of, it is a simple fact of television - in general we watch a show for the main cast/characters and those are the people we see going on missions and doing stuff... although it might be more technically accurate, people are not gonna be anywhere near as interested to see random Red Shirts going on the dangerous missions.

It's like in House fans (and nursing pressure groups!) have complained that House's staff of doctors perform all sorts of tests and procedures etc that would, in real life, be carried out by specialist technicians, nurses, laboratory staff etc etc etc. And the prodcuers admit and acknowledge this and have explained that it is simply a matter of having to choose between technical accuracy and good television - viewers are not interested in watching some random extra playing a lab tech perform the sputum cultures, or whatever it is.

That's TV.

gebtkd
January 24th, 2007, 04:50 PM
I have read a lot of the post complaining that Carson was not mentionned in this episode and although I am very sadden that Carson is no longer on the show and he should not have been replaced, I really feel that mentionning his name in this episode would served no purpose. I liked Carson's character and felt that he interacted very well with the others, however, as sad as his death was, I don't want to hear the other members of the team mentionning his name in every episode and look sad everytime, this would be repetitive. Why should he have been mentionned in this episode, because it's the one right after Sunday? As pointed out by several people, we really don't know how much time passes between episodes, maybe everyone has already have their millon meeting with Heighmeyer. I felt that the episode really represented real life, that although you loose a love one, life must go on, they still have a job to do. What I saw was that Rodney was not as sharp as usual, could it be that he is still grieving and his concentration is not as sharp, but did he have to say it out loud to prove that was the reason? I am probably not going to make myself very popular here, but enough about the not mentionning Carson, Carson is gone, I appreciate all effort to keep him, I would feel the same if my favorite character (Rodney) would have been killed off, but I am willing to wait and see what is going to happen, I don't want to speculate, building plots when I don't know, yes, people will probably say, well Carson is dead that is pretty final, but this is a Science fiction tv show, they could bring back anyone they want, and believe me when they do, no one will complain about the implausible way they brought him back, they will just be happy he is back.

DigiFluid
January 24th, 2007, 07:45 PM
Eh, fairly mediocre episode in my opinion.

I was positively shocked that there was no mention of Carson at all. Sure there was no exact need for a doctor in the episode, but knowing that the man had died just a week before there ought to have been some mention of him. When Daniel died in 'Meridian', the writers wrote the character interaction in 'Revelations' such that the loss was quite palpable. You knew that something important was missing. Moreover, the characters were genuinely still reeling from the loss.

Why Weir and Ronon came along on what was clearly just a scientific scouting mission baffles me to no end. Yes, they tried to explain why she was there near the beginning, but that just didn't do it for me. She very rarely goes on field missions, and looking for an abandoned drilling station doesn't seem like a very likely 'I'm interested in tagging along!' candidate. And was anyone else positively baffled as to how Ronon's gun shot out a window which was designed to handle the vacuum of space and literally thousands of atmospheres worth of atmospheric pressure underwater. That just didn't make any sense at all to me.

Interesting point: Wraith cruiser. (Provided they even mention it ever again) who expects it to last longer than an episode or two before it gets blown up?


To come to what I did enjoy about this episode though, firstly: Teyla. Holy crap. I'd completely forgotten at this point that she could serve any useful purpose whatsoever. It was nice to see that the writers finally remembered that she was on the cast and did something with her.

Also: I can't say enough positive things about the atmosphere. The dark gloom was wonderfully moody, and did a fantastic job of setting the tone for the entire episode.

travis
January 24th, 2007, 07:55 PM
Wow loved this ep great team work. I love the queen she was cool, now only if we could keep the queen abit longer would be nice.

jeterfan
January 24th, 2007, 09:43 PM
Kudos to "teh hair" for still looking so damn good despite having half the ocean trying to drown it.

ROTFL

:teyla: You GO girl...smegging AWESOME performance

PG15
January 24th, 2007, 10:30 PM
Hmpf. Have to disagree.
If the audience enjoyed the character of Carson, they should also be "mourning" for him - and the way for the audience to be mourning for him is to see the rest of their characters as they deal with the less. I completely disagree Daniel's death in Meridian was dealt in the off hours - and even while there were mentions of it during the mission as well, even when it was mentioned in their off hours, it was seen on screen. That's the important issue. Carson's death should be mentioned on screen, whether in an off-time scenario or within a mission.

Actually, Daniel was only mentioned in the scene between Sam and Teal'c near the beginning of the episode. The later mentiones were thanks to Osiris, which fitted the situation. I know this since I just checked the episode transcript.

As for Submersion, if the team had a few off-hour scenes, then not having Carson mentioned would be a little odd, but this episode was a total-mission ep, and thus really had no place for it.

Do you expect the team to just suddenly bring up Carson while walking along the damp corridors? It would be awkward at best, insulting and unneeded at worst, IMHO. It's still painful to them, I wouldn't want to talk about it while in the middle of something important like this.

NubianQueen
January 24th, 2007, 10:47 PM
Why do people keep saying they "trusted" the Wraith in "Allies" and how they made an "Alliance" and yaddi yaddi yadda. They were forced into striking a deal with the Wraith. Either help them with their plan (though it might be a trap) or they'd alert every single Hive in this galaxy to Atlantis' continued survival (which would inevitably lead to its destruction).

They didn't really trust the Wraith as far as they could throw them. Even when Rodney was making repairs on the damaged hive, he was secretely hacking its systems.

Michael saved his own butt, yes. But in the process, he helped save all of Earth. It's like saying that if I was riding on a bus and it lost control but I somehow managed to regain control of it and stop it, I'd only just saved my butt and no one should feel grateful to be for saving theirs as well.

So they got shafted by the Wraith in "Allies". Does this mean they have to shaft every single Wraith they ever get into an alliance with in the future?

I'm not idolizing anyone. I'm saying that Michael deserved something for helping them.


Let Michael have some one on one time with Teyla, lol. I would pay big money just to see those two together again.

NQ

Mitchell82
January 24th, 2007, 10:58 PM
I wonder if the ship really is forgotten or if we will keep this one?

bluealien
January 25th, 2007, 02:19 AM
If we get nit-picky, technically Sheppard is in Hammond's position as head of the military side of the base. Weir isn't military and though she is boss of everything, Sheppard is the military CO. He shouldn't be going off on all these dangerous missions either. If he died, who would take his spot? Lorne isn't always there, neither is Caldwell, so who? Some junior Lt.? You don't see base CO's going off on missions. They delegate. ;)

Weir is the leader of Atlantis - she makes the decisions - its her position to run Atlantis and I would think that would be a full time job. Sheppard is the equivalant of O Neill if you like who went off world all the time - thats why Weir asked him to form his own team - not to sit behind a desk. A Co's job is to command and that can be in the field or behind a desk, but from day one its clear that Sheppards was to be in the field. Whether Weir is military or civilian doesn't make any difference - she is the leader of Atlantis - not Sheppard - the buck ends with her. Everyone takes their orders from her - just like they did from Hammond and he didnt don a tak vest and join the team to do a bit of exploring.

So Weir wasn't required to be on the team - not saying she cant go with them from time to time but taking the whole of the senior staff with her seems odd - but the ptb are obviously struggling with what they can do with her character, so therefore they put her on the team to give her sceentime which is fair enough.

Celcool
January 25th, 2007, 03:02 AM
Maybe they got Elizabeth to go so they could give us some Elizabeth/Teyla scenes. Lots of people want that. :)

I don't even understand why this has to be discussed. Someone else already said that there was no reason for anyone but the scientists to be there. He had a point, it wasn't a military operation. There could be a few soldiers with them it wouldn't have to be the head of the military team. We could ask why Ronon and Teyla were there too, I'm sure they could find some great military extras instead of them, it's done so the whole main cast can be included. I hate all this nitpicking.

scarimor
January 25th, 2007, 03:48 AM
Maybe they got Elizabeth to go so they could give us some Elizabeth/Teyla scenes. Lots of people want that. :)
I was very glad to see them :)


I don't even understand why this has to be discussed. Someone else already said that there was no reason for anyone but the scientists to be there. He had a point, it wasn't a military operation. There could be a few soldiers with them it wouldn't have to be the head of the military team. We could ask why Ronon and Teyla were there too, I'm sure they could find some great military extras instead of them, it's done so the whole main cast can be included. I hate all this nitpicking.
Exactly. It's odd that Weir's presence is questioned, but Ronon's, Teyla's and Sheppard's isn't. If Beckett were still alive he might well have been put in the episode too, and we'd have seen him sedating the wraith queen, and then we could also question why the trip to a rig needed Atlantis' head of medicine.

FoolishPleasure
January 25th, 2007, 08:27 AM
If I want to get REAL nit-picky, I could say the geothermal diddy was a part of Atlantis, therefore Weir would need to see it - being the boss and all. ;)

starmage
January 25th, 2007, 08:36 AM
I have to say that I enjoyed this episode.

I really like the Wraith Queen and I thought her outfit was interesting.
There are things that I would have like to happen differently.
For one I would of liked for the Wraith Queen to have survived. It would have been interesting to learn more about the wraith side of the attack on Atlantis. I would have liked to see her occupy Steve's old cell.

Although this episode sort of felt like a combination of The Defiant One and The Gift.
It was nice seeing Teyla use her connection to the Wraith again and watching how far she can go with it.:teyla15:

prion
January 25th, 2007, 09:57 AM
For us wanton ;) Shep fans...

Go to this LJ - http://users.livejournal.com/_gater_/47344.html - almost frame by frame of that great wet Shep scene from this episode... :)

SGFerrit
January 25th, 2007, 11:14 AM
Great episode, good to see Teyla get some limelight nd to see a technological development. I hope we get to keep the cruiser past the end of the season!

shockwave
January 25th, 2007, 11:31 AM
just watched this episode, found it pretty dull
is boring, just like the ark
had some good special effects

the opening scene with mckay laughing at other (redshirt) scientist name was funny

stewsith
January 25th, 2007, 11:44 AM
I thought this episode started ok with the whole 'Alien' like vibe but it just didn't do it for me for some reason. I was very tired when watching it so maybe if i watch it again I will enjoy it more.

expendable_crewman
January 25th, 2007, 04:29 PM
Liked it the first time.

Loved it the second time.

Could care less why Weir went, or why anyone else went. I liked her being there. I liked her leader moments. Her interaction with Teyla was a treat. Whatever reason made her go, more power to it.

I got the feeling that Plan B was cooked up before Sheppard and McKay left the station. If that was the case, then the ending was extremely team-oriented with everyone doing what he or she does best ... except McKay, who got the P90. But he did a good job with it.

The twist, then, becomes more of a Mission Impossible-esque ending --- I refer to the series, not the films --- about how to fool a Wraith queen into getting herself killed. As in Return 2, they used the queen's arrogance the way the team played on the arrogance of the Assurans, just without the flashback at the end.

I think I really do like the Wraith more than the Assurans. But we couldn't have the queen in Atlantis.

She could turn inside out most minds that came within a certain distance.

I'm curious if being food for the queen is in the small print on the Wraith employee contract. What a nice deal for her. Everyone on the roster retires before the boss. I wonder how much that job pays. Sounds like good work if you can find it.

prion
January 25th, 2007, 04:44 PM
Weir actually went along because she got tired of seeing reports that said "we lost a puddle jumper because the bad guys attacked" and simply thought that Rodney was driving and hit something big and ruined the jumper ;)

localfocus
January 25th, 2007, 05:17 PM
I got the feeling that Plan B was cooked up before Sheppard and McKay left the station. If that was the case, then the ending was extremely team-oriented with everyone doing what he or she does best ... except McKay, who got the P90. But he did a good job with it.
I just noticed something on reviewing. If you watch the scene, right when Sheppard turns to leave he flashes out of frame. Weir and Teyla don't. I think that the plan was cooked up after Sheppard and McKay left, but before Elizabeth left the room and Teyla 'told' Ronon that he was needed. Maybe it was a conversation Teyla and Elizabeth had with John on the radio and Teyla inserted him into it visually?

the old briar pipe
January 25th, 2007, 05:59 PM
I just noticed something on reviewing. If you watch the scene, right when Sheppard turns to leave he flashes out of frame. Weir and Teyla don't. I think that the plan was cooked up after Sheppard and McKay left, but before Elizabeth left the room and Teyla 'told' Ronon that he was needed. Maybe it was a conversation Teyla and Elizabeth had with John on the radio and Teyla inserted him into it visually?

Good point. It's easier to modify a memory than to make one up whole cloth.

Also, that explains Shep and McKay trying to shut the thing down by themselves first. And Ronon leaving Teyla alone. And Teyla wouldn't have to recover from being unconcious in time to radio everyone. Hm. Good plan.

Two thumbs up!

NowIWillDestroyAbydos
January 25th, 2007, 07:07 PM
It was better than I thought. It was great to see the Wraith again. Great scenes with Teyla, epically with the Wraith Queen. I give it a ** 1/2.

Mitchell82
January 25th, 2007, 07:40 PM
Weir actually went along because she got tired of seeing reports that said "we lost a puddle jumper because the bad guys attacked" and simply thought that Rodney was driving and hit something big and ruined the jumper ;)
LOL yeah thats the reason. Weir "Rodney break one more damn jumper and you're fired!" :mckay: ;)

SirixRemyxLover
January 25th, 2007, 08:19 PM
Spoilers for this Episode:

~Teyla gets controlled by a Wraith Queen. (Though almost everyone knew this)
~Carson is mentioned in the 'previously on' segment... (That really makes me mad, but whatever.)
~Weir actually accompanies the team.
~Rodney McKay was actually not as annoying as usual, though he still messed people's names up.
~Two more people die, but they were minor, so it probably wasn't that big of a deal.
~Teyla kicks Ronon's arse.
~If I can think of more, I will post them.

This episode was actually not that exciting. I was only waiting to see if Carson Beckett would be back. Though I will still watch Atlantis, only until they take out the whole original cast, then I'm out of there.

P.S: Most of the Spoilers are probably already posted here, but here they are once again. >.<

the old briar pipe
January 25th, 2007, 09:07 PM
LOL yeah thats the reason. Weir "Rodney break one more damn jumper and you're fired!" :mckay: ;)

At which point Rodney points out that it was Griffin driving in GUP, Shep in Condemned and Siege II, Markham in 38 Minutes and The Brotherhood, etc. Bizarrely, Rodney has not been directly responsible for the loss of a single Jumper.

Does anyone think the Jumper in Submersion is salvagable? Because if so, they could possibly modify Shep's cable to haul up the one from GUP, too. They are running out of ships, here!

Mitchell82
January 25th, 2007, 09:19 PM
At which point Rodney points out that it was Griffin driving in GUP, Shep in Condemned and Siege II, Markham in 38 Minutes and The Brotherhood, etc. Bizarrely, Rodney has not been directly responsible for the loss of a single Jumper.

Does anyone think the Jumper in Submersion is salvagable? Because if so, they could possibly modify Shep's cable to haul up the one from GUP, too. They are running out of ships, here!

LOL yeah I know. It depends on how "waterproof" ancient tech is. The only real damage is the windshield and if the controlls still work then I'd say yeah.

the old briar pipe
January 25th, 2007, 09:23 PM
LOL yeah I know. It depends on how "waterproof" ancient tech is. The only real damage is the windshield and if the controlls still work then I'd say yeah.

Well, Atlantis has proved semi-waterproof (some things malfunctioned, but not everything) and the Jumpers have handled raw vaccuum, at least in the rear compartments. Those are some tough little fellas.

But can they even get to the one in Submersion? It's outside the forcefields.

Mitchell82
January 25th, 2007, 09:30 PM
Well, Atlantis has proved semi-waterproof (some things malfunctioned, but not everything) and the Jumpers have handled raw vaccuum, at least in the rear compartments. Those are some tough little fellas.

But can they even get to the one in Submersion? It's outside the forcefields.

That's true. Uh only by tow I think. They's have to get at it from the outside. So likely it's destroyed unless shep wants to try and get at it. He could say "But Elizabeth I left my Playboys in there I have to go back!":D :p

PhatChance
January 25th, 2007, 09:44 PM
Boring episode. I was gasping for air just to sit through it. The problem is it seems just too loose and all over places.

4/10.

Elinor
January 26th, 2007, 12:03 AM
I really enjoyed this one...it wasn't up there with the 'Wow Kapow' episodes...but definitely lots of fun!


I really like the Wraith Queen and I thought her outfit was interesting.


Yes...a girly moment for me here...I thought her outfit was great to! Almost looked like something Madonna might wear on stage!! http://www.clicksmilies.com/s1106/lachen/laughing-smiley-004.gif It was Andee Frizzell as the Queen wasn't it? She plays that part so well!


For us wanton ;) Shep fans...

Go to this LJ - http://users.livejournal.com/_gater_/47344.html - almost frame by frame of that great wet Shep scene from this episode... :)

Oh my word...I love Soggy Shep!! That whole scene was fab! Shep brought to his knees...Queenie stroking his face! What is it with these queens and the Sheppy face stroking anyway?!! http://www.clicksmilies.com/s1106/grinser/grinning-smiley-018.gif




I think I really do like the Wraith more than the Assurans.

Oh me to...they just exude such a creepy presence on screen. I don't find many TV aliens do that for me. Probably the Borg are the last ones that had that particular quality!

So, all 'n' all, a good episode. I think it's a shame we're losing Ken C. I've really enjoyed his stories. Ah well....such is life!

http://www.clicksmilies.com/s1106/aktion/action-smiley-021.gif

Kidwizz
January 26th, 2007, 02:44 AM
this ep was very plain, nothing new everything old, nothing added to the main story. and the queen didn't do the neel echo thing. ive always loved that echo effect.

4/10

Hypochondriac
January 26th, 2007, 06:06 AM
Goof #1: At first, the force fields freeze people in their tracks and then throw them backwards (Ronon sure did a big leap backwards), as if electrocuted, but when Rodney and Radek put the force field up around the docking area, Rodney could touch it, he wasn't phazed at all.



In most sci-fi shows I've seen, the forcefield strength/throwback is proportional to the energy used against it. just touching it won't give you the same kick as running into it.

Iguana775
January 26th, 2007, 07:24 AM
I'm sure the has been discussed (I really dont want to read through 10 pages of posts) but anyone think they'll dig up the cruiser?? McKay said it was in good shape. I really hope they do try to dig it up.

Iguana775
January 26th, 2007, 07:26 AM
In most sci-fi shows I've seen, the forcefield strength/throwback is proportional to the energy used against it. just touching it won't give you the same kick as running into it.

exactly. Newton's 3rd law. For every action there is an equal and opposite reaction. so if you run in to the force field, you'll probably bounce off of it.

http://www.phy6.org/stargaze/Snewton3.htm

Linzi
January 26th, 2007, 08:53 AM
I'm sure the has been discussed (I really dont want to read through 10 pages of posts) but anyone think they'll dig up the cruiser?? McKay said it was in good shape. I really hope they do try to dig it up.
I think they may well do, though, as McKay said, Shep will probably blow it up or ram it into a Hive ship anyway :lol:

Alipeeps
January 26th, 2007, 09:22 AM
Spoilers for this Episode:

~Teyla gets controlled by a Wraith Queen. (Though almost everyone knew this)
~Carson is mentioned in the 'previously on' segment... (That really makes me mad, but whatever.)
~Weir actually accompanies the team.
~Rodney McKay was actually not as annoying as usual, though he still messed people's names up.
~Two more people die, but they were minor, so it probably wasn't that big of a deal.
~Teyla kicks Ronon's arse.
~If I can think of more, I will post them.

This episode was actually not that exciting. I was only waiting to see if Carson Beckett would be back. Though I will still watch Atlantis, only until they take out the whole original cast, then I'm out of there.

P.S: Most of the Spoilers are probably already posted here, but here they are once again. >.<

Yes, seeing as there are 13 pages of discussion in here, it's reasonable to assume that people already know - and have already discussed - all the "spoilers" you have mentioned. :rolleyes:

I'm not sure why you were waiting to see if Carson would come back. He died in the previous episode. Why would you be expecting him to come back?


That's true. Uh only by tow I think. They's have to get at it from the outside. So likely it's destroyed unless shep wants to try and get at it. He could say "But Elizabeth I left my Playboys in there I have to go back!":D :p

I'm wondering if they could send someone (e.g. Shep) in one of the deep pressure suits to get in through the smashed windscreen and then pilot it up to the surface. Surely once they activated the shield they would be able pilot it etc. Mind you, that thought has just made me realise that I'm surprised that the windscreen survived anyway at that depth unless they left the sheilds on all the time (and if they'd done that the water wouldn't have been able to flood in when the window shattered) as in GUP it was made clear that the windscreen can only withstand water pressure up to a certain depth (about 1,000 metres wasn't it?) Unless the area where the mining platform is is actually a lot less deep than where the jumper sank in GUP...?


Oh my word...I love Soggy Shep!! That whole scene was fab! Shep brought to his knees...Queenie stroking his face! What is it with these queens and the Sheppy face stroking anyway?!! http://www.clicksmilies.com/s1106/grinser/grinning-smiley-018.gif


Well, come on... wouldn't you? ;) :D :D

prion
January 26th, 2007, 09:27 AM
LOL yeah I know. It depends on how "waterproof" ancient tech is. The only real damage is the windshield and if the controlls still work then I'd say yeah.

Did they ever salvage the jumper from "Grace Under Pressure"? I would think if it was feasible, they would do if nothing else than to figure out precisely what went wrong...

expendable_crewman
January 26th, 2007, 12:14 PM
I just noticed something on reviewing. If you watch the scene, right when Sheppard turns to leave he flashes out of frame. Weir and Teyla don't. I think that the plan was cooked up after Sheppard and McKay left, but before Elizabeth left the room and Teyla 'told' Ronon that he was needed. Maybe it was a conversation Teyla and Elizabeth had with John on the radio and Teyla inserted him into it visually?You know, I thought about that too.

Me, I like the idea that when there is no Plan B going in, McKay continues "fiddling" with stuff, especially self-destruct machines, until his fingers fall off or he blows up, lol.

I think he would have been inside that thing, and under it and so on.

If there was no Plan B when he got to the cruise ship, then that means Atlantis and the station depended on him. That's when Rodney shines.

Instead, he said he couldn't do it in time, which would (if there was a plan) trigger Plan B to go.

Rodney gives up and then Sheppard radios Weir that Rodney can't do it.

Then I think Teyla and Weir are chatting in the hall where the queen can overhear them.

Another thing that makes me think they had a Plan B before Sheppard and McKay left the station: when Sheppard and McKay get to the cruise ship, Sheppard says that it took longer than he thought. McKay says something like it doesn't really matter, and Sheppard gets on him about being pessimistic.

McKay's pessimistic but he tends to focus hard when he's the end and the beginning of a plan.

I didn't buy Teyla's "Kreskin" act the second time, when she got weak and the sedated queen said she could have crushed her mind with a thought.

If the Plan B was already in play (Sheppard says tell Teyla to do her Kreskin thing), then Teyla would have been faking weakness.

A short while later, Teyla fakes out the Wraith queen a la Seige 3, so I'm thinking she was faking losing concentration with her mind-meld on the previous occasion. This is right after Sheppard tells Weir to have Teyla do her Kreskin thing, lol. Weir doesn't protest either. Teyla just does it. At this point, Sheppard and McKay are still in the water. They haven't reached the cruise ship.

Whatcha think?

Ice Wolf
January 26th, 2007, 03:44 PM
IMO I think it would have been better if they (Weir and Sheppard) had kept Teyla in the dark, letting Teyla know about the plan and trying to trick the wraith was a bad move as if was pretty clear that it had little hope of success.


It comes across to me as just a sloppy way to make Teyla look good (OMG her minds stronger the the strongest wraith queen ever!!!!) It would have been better for her character if they kept her in the dark about the actual plan as then they could have had the 'you did not trust me?' type conversations, now its all 'good work Teyla, your the the bestest' seriously does Teyla ever make mistakes (besides getting taken over the first time in the ep although you could take that as the others being way too stupid to realise) Teyla always comes across as little miss perfect. Im getting tired of it. How come making one character look good in this show always seems to vcome at the expense of making the others look stupid/bad???


That Weir calling Sheppard! Sheppard! over the radio when the queen had him seemed off as she usually yells out John in those situations.

Other than that it was a good episode.
Loved the whole team being there.
Loved how Rodney hired the wrong guy cause he mixed up the names (too bad wrong guy got wraithed).

Loved Ronon running into the forcefield the first time, and then touching it carefully the second time when it was holding back the water.

flynn1959
January 26th, 2007, 04:36 PM
All in all a good episode, I didn't like the obvious 'red shirts' we were shouting at the screen as soon as they came on. I did think the queen was pretty scary in this one, sometimes I have found the make-up etc laughable. I give this one a 8/10.

Loved Rodney saving Sheppard, the reluctant hero.

the old briar pipe
January 26th, 2007, 11:02 PM
I'm wondering if they could send someone (e.g. Shep) in one of the deep pressure suits to get in through the smashed windscreen and then pilot it up to the surface. Surely once they activated the shield they would be able pilot it etc. Mind you, that thought has just made me realise that I'm surprised that the windscreen survived anyway at that depth unless they left the sheilds on all the time (and if they'd done that the water wouldn't have been able to flood in when the window shattered) as in GUP it was made clear that the windscreen can only withstand water pressure up to a certain depth (about 1,000 metres wasn't it?) Unless the area where the mining platform is is actually a lot less deep than where the jumper sank in GUP...?

I think it was definitely less depth than GUP, for 2 reasons: 1 - suits! and Wraith swimming! 2 - why would the Ancients build a power station below the level their own equipment could reach? There were no other submersibles in the underwater bay in Return II, so there's no indication they used anything other than Jumpers to get down there.

Also, Atlantis itself sits on a rock shelf only "several hundred feet" deep, if Sumner can be believed in Rising. And according to the intro shot, the platform is relatively nearby.

Good idea for having Shep reach the Jumper. But do you think the systems would still be operational? I'm thinking they might need to dry out a bit.

Perhaps a tow? :)