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GateWorld
November 19th, 2006, 09:50 PM
<DIV ALIGN="center"><TABLE WIDTH="450" BORDER="0" CELLSPACING="0" CELLPADDING="7"><TR><TD><DIV ALIGN="left"><FONT FACE="Verdana, Arial, san-serif" SIZE="2" COLOR="#000000"><A HREF="http://www.gateworld.net/atlantis/s3/316.shtml"><IMG SRC="http://www.gateworld.net/atlantis/graphics/316.jpg" WIDTH="160" HEIGHT="120" ALIGN="right" HSPACE="10" VSPACE="2" BORDER="0" STYLE="border: 1px black solid" ALT="Visit the Episode Guide"></A><FONT SIZE="1" COLOR="#888888">ATLANTIS SEASON THREE</FONT>
<FONT SIZE="4"><A HREF="http://www.gateworld.net/atlantis/s3/316.shtml" STYLE="text-decoration: none">THE ARK</A></FONT>
<FONT SIZE="1">EPISODE NUMBER - 316</FONT>
<IMG SRC="/images/clear.gif" WIDTH="1" HEIGHT="10" ALT="">
The team discovers the last of a civilization in suspended animation, whose survival is at risk when their station is critically damaged.

<FONT SIZE="1" COLOR="#888888"><B><A HREF="http://www.gateworld.net/atlantis/s3/316.shtml">VISIT THE EPISODE GUIDE ></A></B>
SPOILERS! PHOTOS! AND MORE!</FONT></FONT></DIV></TD></TR></TABLE></DIV>

localfocus
January 9th, 2007, 03:16 AM
Ok, that was cute. Love that Ronon was panicking and is claustrophobic too. Yet in a very Ronon way. Gives him some depth. And Sheppard, offering to fight him to the death to comfort him. Boys. Some Sheppard and Ronon whump. Love the team wanting to be together. Blowtorches always look awesome on screen. Nice to see a new set. Though seeing them all suited up most of the ep wasn't very thunk worthy. Some of the exposition was clunky, but it was an interesting plot and had some visual variety, which SGA sorely needs. The cast are always doing the same things in the same environments. So it's nice to see something different.

MechaThor
January 9th, 2007, 03:36 AM
Question since i have not seen the ep.

Was the civilisation Avtaully Aliens as in non Human or is it nother wasted oppertunity and major disappointment of English speaking Humans?

If it is i gess thats cool but if it where aliens it would have sweet news :D

localfocus
January 9th, 2007, 03:53 AM
English speaking humans. We only saw two of them.

chemicalNova
January 9th, 2007, 04:20 AM
Boring. Blatant space filler towards the end of the season. Hopefully the last 4 will be better.

chem

lunarleviathan
January 9th, 2007, 04:27 AM
Pretty boring episode I thought.

I hated how basically Sheppard was lucky that the ship/station broke free, was undamaged, and survived re-entry. That's just a crappy resolution, pure luck. I'd rather have seen McKay come up with some kind of solution at some stage, a way to break free the ship/station, another way to salvage the storage device, or something else. I mean it was lucky enough the ship/station didn't burn up itself never mind the fact that it just happened to break from the moon in such a way that it wasn't destroyed or even slightly damaged.

Also, hasn't the stored remnants of a civilisation stored in some kind of stasis or storage been done a few to many times already?

Personally my worst episode of the season so far. I've loved every episode so far, this let the side down.

sueKay
January 9th, 2007, 04:41 AM
boring boring boring boring

not quite as bad as the Tower, but worse than Epiphany

Only enjoyable moments were Ronon's freaking out and my little 'hurrah' when Beckett showed up

localfocus
January 9th, 2007, 05:14 AM
Well, plot wise it wasn't best, clunky in execution, but interesting idea. The tag is awesome. Rachel's flutter (best way to describe it, it wasn't flirty though) of expression after Sheppard's "that wasn't why I did it" was fantastic. She needs more opportunity to really act. And Sheppard pretending that he wouldn't have done it for McKay, and Teyla calling him on the lie was cute.

Linzi
January 9th, 2007, 05:21 AM
I really loved this!
A very different story, not like any SG1 episode I've seen, thank you very much! So, no comparisons appropriate here, IMO.
The story was great, the sets fantastic. There was loads of action, which I love. The fx were terrific, and it was dramatic and tense. I loved Sheppard flying the shuttle and risking his life to save Teyla, because Sheppard would do that to save one of his team. I felt really excited watching parts of this, and that is something that has been missing recently from SGA - an adrenalin surge. I got that watching this! Forgot to mention the closing scene - that was really sweet and amusing!
So, a big thumbs up from me. Well done to the cast, particularly both Joe and Rachel, who really shone in this :). Nice to see Teyla getting some dramatic storyline. Loved McKay's concern for Sheppard too, awww, bless him. He owes Shep a weeks pay,but, oh yes, he didn't accept the bet, sensible man!!!
So, thumbs up from me. I want to congratulate Ken C on another wonderful episode. This is the kind of episode I want to see. Well done! :)

female Wraith
January 9th, 2007, 06:32 AM
I watched it. A good episode, I think. Although ...I expected something more. I thought it will be a masterpiece like Common ground because one of the creators is Cuperus.
I have to say there were many cliches in the plot. A lot of posturing and the whole story was very ...mmm...predictable at moments. But as a whole it was a good. From me - 4/10.

FoolishPleasure
January 9th, 2007, 07:17 AM
Although ...I expected something more. I thought it will be a masterpiece like Common ground because one of the creators is Cuperus.

Don't rate an episode simply because of "who" wrote it. Ken has already admitted that Brad helped him write Common Ground, and had a hand in this episode as well. Neither was exclusively a Ken Cuperus script. BTW - some people were calling this a rewrite of SG1's Lifeboat, and Brad wrote that script. Though it isn't exactly the same, there are similarities, even if they weren't intentional. ;)

I look at each episode individually, not caring who the writer is. Mallozzi and Mullie wrote my all-time fav SG1 episode, but they've also written some of the worst things I've ever seen on TV. Just because I see M & M on a script doesn't mean I will like the episode.

As for this - Zzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzz. Not the worst, but not one for the keep pile either.

female Wraith
January 9th, 2007, 07:48 AM
Well...I rated Ark 4/10 because I wanted to be polite. After all the episode was better than Irresponsble and there were some good moments.:)

HyperCaz
January 9th, 2007, 07:51 AM
Good episode, I guess. Much as I love Beckett, he really didn't do much except make the beckett/teyla shipper in me happy. Despite moving a bit slow and just lacking an elusive something, I liked watching this.

ata_beckett
January 9th, 2007, 08:03 AM
Just finished watching:

I thought it was really slow to start-- I got SO annoyed with whatever his name was who decided DYING was a good idea. :sheppardanime31: But I thought the episode got better as it went on.

Not much, plotwise, but there were some funny little character moments.

"We can't stop now, we just cracked open the pinata!"

And I actually LIKED Teyla in this episode, which is a rarity for me. And yes, Ronon actually made me CRINGE. Oh my god OW. :ronan:

Not fantastic, but not horrible. 2.5-3 out of 5.

Arctic Penguin
January 9th, 2007, 08:56 AM
Okay ep not my favourite. All the characters had something to do and there was some great lines. The last scene was really sweet , i liked weir asking sheppard if he had come to the infirmary to have his head examined.

Wolf Eire
January 9th, 2007, 10:06 AM
I found it extremely problematic in this episode that McKay and Sheppard reiterated several times that there was no possible way that the survivors of that civilization could be saved yet in several seconds they could work out a solution once Teyla got sucked in. Are our heroes declining in bravery and moral standards as every season passes? What was the issue here? Were they just too damn lazy? Do they just not care? "Uh, I save a civilization every week, can't be bothered this week".

I thought this showed the characters up badly. I also thought the deus ex machina that resulted in Sheppard's shuttle just emerging from the flames like a phoenix to be particularly weak. It was just pure corny fluke.

Also, Ronon seems to become more of a cartoon character every week. I could tell from the start of that scene before it was even said his arm was dislocated that he was going to pop his own arm back in. I should not be able to do that but that's how predictably cartoonish he's become.

Not the worst effort at an episode by any means but it contained a few major problems it and also it wasn't that original.

caty
January 9th, 2007, 10:16 AM
I absolutely loved this one!!! It was something different, somethign I haven't seen and had lots of good character interaction!

I'll give it a 9/10.. With the strongest this season.. Oh, how opinions can differ :D

ken_is_here
January 9th, 2007, 10:29 AM
Hi all. Hope you enjoyed the show.

LoveConquers
January 9th, 2007, 10:42 AM
I absolutely loved this one!!! It was something different, somethign I haven't seen and had lots of good character interaction!

I'll give it a 9/10.. With the strongest this season.. Oh, how opinions can differ :D

I really liked this one too! Not my favorite of S3, but definitely one of the betters ones we've seen for the second half of the season so far! I liked the team back in the field working together on a mission. I liked the plot as well, a bit predictable at times yes, but I enjoyed the drama regardless. And as much as I love John/Rodney banter, it was GREAT to see John working with Ronon this time. I like when we see the usually pairings broken off. And there was still plenty of banter over the coms.

I loved the whole scene with John and Ronon struggling to close the bulk head doors and John's expression when Ronon reset his own shoulder.

Loved seeing Lorne again too! And he had more than one line this time!

Loved Teyla in this ep! She finally got a few moments to shine! I loved her speech to Jamus when he held her hostage and her eyes when he told her about the people and the children held in the storage container.

Loved John's single-minded determination to save Teyla, just as we've seen with him when one of his own is in danger. I thought the resolution was a bit weak and I don't understand why on earth the shuttle didn't burn as well. But John's expression at the end when he lifted his helmet was priceless.

So nice to see Beckett in the ep! He looked adorable in his space suit. :)

Loved the end scene as well. Very cute and very tender. A small admittance of emotion and then a joke to cover it up. Typical John. :)

Overall, a nice ep! CG is still my favorite ep of Ken's, but this was another good one by him! What made it for me was the great characterization found throughout and some nice action mixed in.

LoveConquers
January 9th, 2007, 10:46 AM
Hi all,

Once a few more viewers have had a chance to check out the ep, I'll be by to discuss the story from a writer's POV. A backstage pass into my brain to see the genesis of a stargate: Atlantis ep...from premise to screen.

Later,
Ken C

Hi Ken! I'm so excited to see you here again! Thank you for stopping by! Can't WAIT to hear more from you! I really liked this ep a lot and it will be fun to hear about it from your POV! THANK YOU!

caty
January 9th, 2007, 10:52 AM
Hi all,

Once a few more viewers have had a chance to check out the ep, I'll be by to discuss the story from a writer's POV. A backstage pass into my brain to see the genesis of a stargate: Atlantis ep...from premise to screen.

Later,
Ken C

Yay, Ken is here :D When will you let us into your brain? I can't wait! *wants to see Ken's brain*

EDIT: My English has abandoned me :D

Rootortoise
January 9th, 2007, 10:57 AM
Ok well i LOVED this ep, ever since the second half of season 3 has started (loved all of them in the first half except the real world) ive been disappointed with most episodes, the only ones ive truly enjoyed were echoes, and this episode!! the rest have been ok, but no where near as good quality as these!!
Well done ken, another great episode!
it was nothing like lifeboat, as i didnt think it would be anyway, so no im not comparing it to that.
Great acting by all, great effects, great storyline (although dragged in a couple of bits, but not enough to make me enjoy it any less)
Loved the ending, with shep saving the day and his team worrying about him, lovely team feel, loved the "leave no man behind" thing drummed in the ep again.
Teyla actually got stuff to do and she was great in it! John was excellent as ever (nice bit of whump too so i was happy), Lorne was back!
cute scene at the end with telya and john in the infirmary!
i just really enjoyed it, i hope the remaining eps are all good as well!!

Wolf Eire
January 9th, 2007, 10:59 AM
By the way, I forgot to add, I think the cleverest bit of the episode was the twist that the civilization had in fact killed themselves via nuclear fallout. I also liked the idea that the guy sucked Teyla into the machine to test the team's motivations but sadly it showed up our team as not motivated enough which I already said I found a big problem.

ken_is_here
January 9th, 2007, 11:01 AM
I found it extremely problematic in this episode that McKay and Sheppard reiterated several times that there was no possible way that the survivors of that civilization could be saved yet in several seconds they could work out a solution once Teyla got sucked in. Are our heroes declining in bravery and moral standards as every season passes? What was the issue here? Were they just too damn lazy? Do they just not care? "Uh, I save a civilization every week, can't be bothered this week".

I thought this showed the characters up badly. I also thought the deus ex machina that resulted in Sheppard's shuttle just emerging from the flames like a phoenix to be particularly weak. It was just pure corny fluke.

Also, Ronon seems to become more of a cartoon character every week. I could tell from the start of that scene before it was even said his arm was dislocated that he was going to pop his own arm back in. I should not be able to do that but that's how predictably cartoonish he's become.

Not the worst effort at an episode by any means but it contained a few major problems it and also it wasn't that original.


I'll address this one, since it makes a good point:

In my head (and, I feel, in my script as well) it was intended that this situation the team was in was an impossible one. With no fuel in the shuttle, it was absolutely impossible to save the civilization in the wraith device without, at the very least sacrificing the pilot of the shuttle -- and even then it was very unlikely the device would survive the impact. It was that simple. One member of this new race doomed the rest of his people, and we couldn't do a damn thing about it.

And then Teyla was forced into the device -- and Sheppard made a decision. He couldn't let Teyla die without at least trying to save her. But in making this decision, Sheppard assumed he would die in the attempt. It was a suicide mission from the start. He simply hoped that he would somehow be able to get the shuttle, (and the device) clear of the station before he died. The shuttle was designed for re-entry - it was a gliding shuttle so once in the atmosphere it would have a chance at surviving the crash landing -- IF Sheppard could somehow miracoulously get it free of the station.

Now here's maybe what wasn't perfectly clear in the aired version (although it was clear to me...because it was in my head all along) -- The fact that the bolts didn't blow, and the shuttle didn't come free from the mooring at first is what saved Sheppard's (and Teyla's) life. Sheppard's plan was to try release the shuttle from the mooring, and hope that gravity carried him free of the moon through the damaged airlock. More likely he would have bounced around inside until the shuttle disintegrated, and killed everyone. This is pretty much what Sheppard expected. (In my original script, I made a little more out of Sheppard saying his goodbyes to the rest of his team. He never expected to live) However...because the bolts didn't blow...Sheppard got lucky. The station hit the atmosphere, and the moon burned up, from the outside in. But the moon wasn't solid, and the hollow pocket inside acted as a buffer. So when the shuttle broke free of its mooring, without slamming into any solid walls of rock -- It simply emerged from the rubble to continue the descent it was designed for.

Yes, it was lucky...this is a situation where all the piloting skill in the world would have been useless. If we had Sheppard do the impossible, and skillfully bring the shuttle down, I would have felt that was a cheat. Too super-hero. Sheppard was human here, surviving only because of dumb luck. And all because he refused to let Teyla go without a fight.

Anayway, this is how I saw it...and tried to write it...

Ken C

Arctic Penguin
January 9th, 2007, 11:05 AM
By the way, I forgot to add, I think the cleverest bit of the episode was the twist that the civilization had in fact killed themselves via nuclear fallout. I also liked the idea that the guy sucked Teyla into the machine to test the team's motivations but sadly it showed up our team as not motivated enough which I already said I found a big problem.

I thought it was a great twist as well i liked the fact that we got the civilization reasons for storing the people and why they were sure the wraith wouldnt return and that he still didnt see any error in his actions even if he felt remorse for the second shuttle. its always interesting to learn the 'guest characters' motivation.

JuneBug625
January 9th, 2007, 11:06 AM
I liked this episode. I really liked the character development and I loved the tag at the end. I thought the character interactions were very well done as well. I liked the action and the fact that Teyla had some great scenes in the episode. I really got a good "team feel" from this ep. I did however feel like I was waiting for something to happen that just...didn't. Something about the resolution just left me sort of hanging. Can't really describe it. I did like the episode overall though. So far, I've really really enjoyed season 3 save a few. Can't wait to see what the final 4 have in store for us!

Cheers,
JB

Wolf Eire
January 9th, 2007, 11:21 AM
I'll address this one, since it makes a good point:

In my head (and, I feel, in my script as well) it was intended that this situation the team was in was an impossible one. With no fuel in the shuttle, it was absolutely impossible to save the civilization in the wraith device without, at the very least sacrificing the pilot of the shuttle -- and even then it was very unlikely the device would survive the impact. It was that simple. One member of this new race doomed the rest of his people, and we couldn't do a damn thing about it.

And then Teyla was forced into the device -- and Sheppard made a decision. He couldn't let Teyla die without at least trying to save her. But in making this decision, Sheppard assumed he would die in the attempt. It was a suicide mission from the start. He simply hoped that he would somehow be able to get the shuttle, (and the device) clear of the station before he died. The shuttle was designed for re-entry - it was a gliding shuttle so once in the atmosphere it would have a chance at surviving the crash landing -- IF Sheppard could somehow miracoulously get it free of the station.

Now here's maybe what wasn't perfectly clear in the aired version (although it was clear to me...because it was in my head all along) -- The fact that the bolts didn't blow, and the shuttle didn't come free from the mooring at first is what saved Sheppard's (and Teyla's) life. Sheppard's plan was to try release the shuttle from the mooring, and hope that gravity carried him free of the moon through the damaged airlock. More likely he would have bounced around inside until the shuttle disintegrated, and killed everyone. This is pretty much what Sheppard expected. (In my original script, I made a little more out of Sheppard saying his goodbyes to the rest of his team. He never expected to live) However...because the bolts didn't blow...Sheppard got lucky. The station hit the atmosphere, and the moon burned up, from the outside in. But the moon wasn't solid, and the hollow pocket inside acted as a buffer. So when the shuttle broke free of its mooring, without slamming into any solid walls of rock -- It simply emerged from the rubble to continue the descent it was designed for.

Yes, it was lucky...this is a situation where all the piloting skill in the world would have been useless. If we had Sheppard do the impossible, and skillfully bring the shuttle down, I would have felt that was a cheat. Too super-hero. Sheppard was human here, surviving only because of dumb luck. And all because he refused to let Teyla go without a fight.

Anayway, this is how I saw it...and tried to write it...

Ken C

Actually when you put it like that it clears some things up me. I can see now why you went for the fluke. What you're essentially saying is Sheppard not getting realeased when he wanted saved him and the civilization by accident and otherwise there was 0% chance of survival. I didn't quite get that by watching it but I get it now. But does it make all that much sense that Sheppard went on a certain suicide mission without any idea to save Teyla? I'm all for team comaraderie but is that not a bit of a stretch? It's almost like dying for dying's sake.

majortrip
January 9th, 2007, 11:22 AM
I very much liked this episode. It was great to see Teyla with some meatier material. McKay did his usual "How screwed are we, oh, let me count the ways" speech, but I expect it of him, and DH always gives a great reaction when they do not die after all. I find his cynicism balances Sheppard's optimism.

This is another episode in which the Wraith and their destructiveness are talked about, and I find that I actually miss them this season.

The firebug in me was satisfied with the special effects, so that was nice.

The ending was very sweet, and typically Sheppard. I think that's it. Very enjoyable episode for me.

By the way, I did see that Sheppard probably didn't expect to survive. To me, those 'suicide missions' always seem like he wants to spare as many people as possible by volunteering to do the most dangerous (and reckless) things himself, and it also comes across to me that he realizes he's more than lucky.

caty
January 9th, 2007, 11:25 AM
I'll address this one, since it makes a good point:

In my head (and, I feel, in my script as well) it was intended that this situation the team was in was an impossible one. With no fuel in the shuttle, it was absolutely impossible to save the civilization in the wraith device without, at the very least sacrificing the pilot of the shuttle -- and even then it was very unlikely the device would survive the impact. It was that simple. One member of this new race doomed the rest of his people, and we couldn't do a damn thing about it.

And then Teyla was forced into the device -- and Sheppard made a decision. He couldn't let Teyla die without at least trying to save her. But in making this decision, Sheppard assumed he would die in the attempt. It was a suicide mission from the start. He simply hoped that he would somehow be able to get the shuttle, (and the device) clear of the station before he died. The shuttle was designed for re-entry - it was a gliding shuttle so once in the atmosphere it would have a chance at surviving the crash landing -- IF Sheppard could somehow miracoulously get it free of the station.

Now here's maybe what wasn't perfectly clear in the aired version (although it was clear to me...because it was in my head all along) -- The fact that the bolts didn't blow, and the shuttle didn't come free from the mooring at first is what saved Sheppard's (and Teyla's) life. Sheppard's plan was to try release the shuttle from the mooring, and hope that gravity carried him free of the moon through the damaged airlock. More likely he would have bounced around inside until the shuttle disintegrated, and killed everyone. This is pretty much what Sheppard expected. (In my original script, I made a little more out of Sheppard saying his goodbyes to the rest of his team. He never expected to live) However...because the bolts didn't blow...Sheppard got lucky. The station hit the atmosphere, and the moon burned up, from the outside in. But the moon wasn't solid, and the hollow pocket inside acted as a buffer. So when the shuttle broke free of its mooring, without slamming into any solid walls of rock -- It simply emerged from the rubble to continue the descent it was designed for.

Yes, it was lucky...this is a situation where all the piloting skill in the world would have been useless. If we had Sheppard do the impossible, and skillfully bring the shuttle down, I would have felt that was a cheat. Too super-hero. Sheppard was human here, surviving only because of dumb luck. And all because he refused to let Teyla go without a fight.

Anayway, this is how I saw it...and tried to write it...

Ken C

That makes sense.. There's just one point that isn't clear to me (and maybe I am being a blonde, you never know :D)

You said that Sheppard expected to die from the start and that his original plan was that he would get the shuttle free from the station and then let it glide to the planet for a crah landing.. But wouldn't he have the same chance surviving this crash landing than the people in the device did? Why is this neccessarily a suicide mission?

Not getting free of the station would have destroyed the shuttle and killed everyone. The way it actually happened saved them all. I just don't really get the whole suicide mission part :o

Linzi
January 9th, 2007, 11:39 AM
I'll address this one, since it makes a good point:

In my head (and, I feel, in my script as well) it was intended that this situation the team was in was an impossible one. With no fuel in the shuttle, it was absolutely impossible to save the civilization in the wraith device without, at the very least sacrificing the pilot of the shuttle -- and even then it was very unlikely the device would survive the impact. It was that simple. One member of this new race doomed the rest of his people, and we couldn't do a damn thing about it.

And then Teyla was forced into the device -- and Sheppard made a decision. He couldn't let Teyla die without at least trying to save her. But in making this decision, Sheppard assumed he would die in the attempt. It was a suicide mission from the start. He simply hoped that he would somehow be able to get the shuttle, (and the device) clear of the station before he died. The shuttle was designed for re-entry - it was a gliding shuttle so once in the atmosphere it would have a chance at surviving the crash landing -- IF Sheppard could somehow miracoulously get it free of the station.

Now here's maybe what wasn't perfectly clear in the aired version (although it was clear to me...because it was in my head all along) -- The fact that the bolts didn't blow, and the shuttle didn't come free from the mooring at first is what saved Sheppard's (and Teyla's) life. Sheppard's plan was to try release the shuttle from the mooring, and hope that gravity carried him free of the moon through the damaged airlock. More likely he would have bounced around inside until the shuttle disintegrated, and killed everyone. This is pretty much what Sheppard expected. (In my original script, I made a little more out of Sheppard saying his goodbyes to the rest of his team. He never expected to live) However...because the bolts didn't blow...Sheppard got lucky. The station hit the atmosphere, and the moon burned up, from the outside in. But the moon wasn't solid, and the hollow pocket inside acted as a buffer. So when the shuttle broke free of its mooring, without slamming into any solid walls of rock -- It simply emerged from the rubble to continue the descent it was designed for.

Yes, it was lucky...this is a situation where all the piloting skill in the world would have been useless. If we had Sheppard do the impossible, and skillfully bring the shuttle down, I would have felt that was a cheat. Too super-hero. Sheppard was human here, surviving only because of dumb luck. And all because he refused to let Teyla go without a fight.

Anayway, this is how I saw it...and tried to write it...

Ken C
Hi Ken! Nice to see you here again.
Thanks for the explanation, it's great to hear about the episode from your perspective. I have to say, everything you say here is what I had gathered from the episode, so it all made sense to me. :) My only slight complaint, is that Sheppard should have been in the infirmary bed, and not Teyla. :lol:

bluealien
January 9th, 2007, 11:42 AM
This ep was fantastic - I loved every minute of it. I was actually sitting on the edge of my seat. Sheppard flying the shuttle at the end was amazing. Everyone got something to do and Teyla was wonderful. So nice to see her getting a decent role in this ep. Probably my favourite ep of the season.

10/10

Linzi
January 9th, 2007, 11:43 AM
By the way, I forgot to add, I think the cleverest bit of the episode was the twist that the civilization had in fact killed themselves via nuclear fallout. I also liked the idea that the guy sucked Teyla into the machine to test the team's motivations but sadly it showed up our team as not motivated enough which I already said I found a big problem.
I loved that twist too. That was unexpected and quite shocking. Desperate times, call for desperate measures, I suppose. Still, it was quite chilling to hear that.

Teddybear
January 9th, 2007, 11:44 AM
I loved this episode , it's exactly how I see SGA , adventure, suspense and interesting interactions between characters . This time , unlike in the Game, I liked the banter between Sheppard and Mc Kay .
The beginning was nice , I thought , wouah Sheppard is in danger and I like when we see him using his talent as a pilot .
I agree with most of the people here in the thread who found a lack of motivation from the team to save the other people , but I realised that I was myself, as a spectator , not really motivated in the salvation of these people, I didn't really care for them , maybe because we didn't know enough about them and their past to be really moved by their future.
Nevermind, I liked the SFX and even if I think that it's a miracle that Sheppard didn't get even a scratch in the landing ( I noticed he never get injured ) it was pleasant to see. I liked the end at the infirmary , the nice moment of privacy between Sheppard and Teyla .
I found the Sheppard I like in this episode, and same remark for the other characters.

Linzi
January 9th, 2007, 11:44 AM
This ep was fantastic - I loved every minute of it. Everyone got something to do - I was actually sitting on the edge of my seat. Sheppard flying the shuttle at the end was amazing. Everyone got somethingn to do and Teyla was wonderful. So nice to see her getting a decent role in this ep. Proabably my favourite ep of the season.

10/10
Yes. That's what I was trying to explain earlier. In some scenes I WAS sitting on the edge of my seat. That's what I've missed in the last 5 or so episodes, and that suspense and excitement was much needed, IMO.

caty
January 9th, 2007, 11:48 AM
I also loved the beginning, especially the camera angle... That was very dramatic and had me on the edge of my seat with excitement about what's going to get him into this mess...

Franklyn Blaze
January 9th, 2007, 11:50 AM
The crash scene, horrible. You have a shuttle falling out of the sky like a stone, at or near terminal velocity. There was no evidence Sheppard had any control of the craft, beeping alarms, no pulling up, nothing.

The ground doesn't break your fall, it beaks you. All the force exerted on the ground rebounds into the shuttle when you smash into the ground. There is no skidding! They should have smashed into a million pieces.

Shepard should have smashed into the windshield on impact. I did not see any safety harness at all. (unless the shuttle designers had a fondness of the color orange) All I saw was an unrestrained pilot.

Ugh!:(

caty
January 9th, 2007, 11:53 AM
The crash scene, horrible. You have a shuttle falling out of the sky like a stone, at or near terminal velocity. There was no evidence Sheppard had any control of the craft, beeping alarms, no pulling up, nothing.

The ground doesn't break your fall, it beaks you. All the force exerted on the ground rebounds into the shuttle when you smash into the ground. There is no skidding! They should have smashed into a million pieces.

Shepard should have smashed into the windshield on impact. I did not see any safety harness at all. (unless the shuttle designers had a fondness of the color orange) All I saw was an unrestrained pilot.

Ugh!:(

As ken has stated, Sheppard didn't have any control and wasn't supposed to have any control over it..
I also got the impression that the shuttle was built for crashing into the ground...

I agree that Shep should have been more injured :D

Arctic Penguin
January 9th, 2007, 11:54 AM
I also loved the beginning, especially the camera angle... That was very dramatic and had me on the edge of my seat with excitement about what's going to get him into this mess...

I agree the scene at the beginning set the tension throughout the ep. I really liked Teyla trying to talk down jameus i felt it was a great piece of acting from RL.

Franklyn Blaze
January 9th, 2007, 12:06 PM
As ken has stated, Sheppard didn't have any control and wasn't supposed to have any control over it..
I also got the impression that the shuttle was built for crashing into the ground...

I agree that Shep should have been more injured :D

Ya but crashing a at speed faster than a flying 747...no. And still having power systems intact to bring back 1000 people. Sorry can't sell me on that.

watcher652
January 9th, 2007, 12:06 PM
OK, I wrote down my thoughts before I read Ken's post, or anyone else's so let me just put it out here and I'll address Ken's point after.

Well, it wasn't a bad episode. Not a great one either, just kinda, eh. It felt sluggish. Nothing offensive or objectionable like some others we've seen this season. Nice set.

If you read the GateWorld episode summary, that's pretty much what happened. Only two guest stars, but it was pretty much just one guest star interacting with Teyla most of the episode.

I think the problem with this show was that the team was separated for a lot of the episode. While they were talking to each other, they really didn't physically interact for much of the show. Now written right, that might have been good, but we didn't learn anything new about the characters except at one point Ronon confesses (well, growls) that he doesn't like small places. There's something else Ronon has in common with Rodney besides an appreciation for eating.

Sheppard and Ronon were trapped together and we did get some exchanges between them. Teyla got more than her usually meager 3 lines, so that was good. Rodney showed some concern for someone other than himself, but he still had his sharp tongue most of the time. Beckett, Lorne and Weir all got some screen time, and we even saw Chuck. No Radek, though.

Sheppard shows us that, yes, he can pretty much fly anything. No big revelation there. I didn't like that it was just luck that Sheppard didn't fry going through the atmosphere or knock his head off when he crash landed. Not that I wanted him to. It's just that there was no effort made to save him. Maybe the point was that it was just luck. Oh look, he should be dead but isn't. Somehow I feel cheated. And, Sheppard won't risk the team to save a thousand strangers but he will risk death trying to save Teyla? Well, yeah, that's pure Sheppard. We did get a bit of an emotional statement from Sheppard there at the end, so even he's loosening up finally.

Ronon does the big macho fix-it-myself of his dislocated shoulder. Teyla plays diplomat. Rodney causes the problem by being his normal curious self and then solves the technical problems that might not have happened if he didn't power up the station in the first place. We learn that sometime during his life, Rodney must have encountered a pinata.

I felt sorry for David Hewlett because he had to wear an orange spacesuit the whole episode. Most of the time with the helmet on. And he had to do a lot of closing of hatch doors. Pretty static from an action viewpoint.

The best part was the very last lines in the infirmary.

This episode did make me wonder about something. What is Sheppard's weekly salary as compared to McKay's? I'm thinking it's gotta be a lot less than what McKay could be earning. Does Sheppard get extra hazard pay working in another galaxy? What kind of salary would McKay be making? Is he considered a private contractor? What about if he worked for a university? Or in the private sector?

Now to what Ken says

I'll address this one, since it makes a good point:

In my head (and, I feel, in my script as well) it was intended that this situation the team was in was an impossible one. With no fuel in the shuttle, it was absolutely impossible to save the civilization in the wraith device without, at the very least sacrificing the pilot of the shuttle -- and even then it was very unlikely the device would survive the impact. It was that simple. One member of this new race doomed the rest of his people, and we couldn't do a damn thing about it.

And then Teyla was forced into the device -- and Sheppard made a decision. He couldn't let Teyla die without at least trying to save her. But in making this decision, Sheppard assumed he would die in the attempt. It was a suicide mission from the start. He simply hoped that he would somehow be able to get the shuttle, (and the device) clear of the station before he died. The shuttle was designed for re-entry - it was a gliding shuttle so once in the atmosphere it would have a chance at surviving the crash landing -- IF Sheppard could somehow miracoulously get it free of the station.

Now here's maybe what wasn't perfectly clear in the aired version (although it was clear to me...because it was in my head all along) -- The fact that the bolts didn't blow, and the shuttle didn't come free from the mooring at first is what saved Sheppard's (and Teyla's) life. Sheppard's plan was to try release the shuttle from the mooring, and hope that gravity carried him free of the moon through the damaged airlock. More likely he would have bounced around inside until the shuttle disintegrated, and killed everyone. This is pretty much what Sheppard expected. (In my original script, I made a little more out of Sheppard saying his goodbyes to the rest of his team. He never expected to live) However...because the bolts didn't blow...Sheppard got lucky. The station hit the atmosphere, and the moon burned up, from the outside in. But the moon wasn't solid, and the hollow pocket inside acted as a buffer. So when the shuttle broke free of its mooring, without slamming into any solid walls of rock -- It simply emerged from the rubble to continue the descent it was designed for.

Yes, it was lucky...this is a situation where all the piloting skill in the world would have been useless. If we had Sheppard do the impossible, and skillfully bring the shuttle down, I would have felt that was a cheat. Too super-hero. Sheppard was human here, surviving only because of dumb luck. And all because he refused to let Teyla go without a fight.

Anayway, this is how I saw it...and tried to write it...

Ken C

Ok, now I get it. And I kind of assumed that after I was watched it and was trying to justify it in my brain. But the problem is that I had to read the statement above to get it. And that's not right. The scenes just didn't work. I think if Lorne, a pilot himself, had some flyboy techie talk to explain what Sheppard was doing, it would have made sense. And then McKay and Lorne talking it out as Sheppard falls thru the atmosphere. Hey, McKay and Lorne actually talking to each other, that would have been cool.

Somehow, I think I should have learned more about Sheppard from this episode, and I didn't. But, Teyla did get more lines than usual, so yay for that.

Luz
January 9th, 2007, 12:07 PM
Yes. That's what I was trying to explain earlier. In some scenes I WAS sitting on the edge of my seat. That's what I've missed in the last 5 or so episodes, and that suspense and excitement was much needed, IMO.

I didn't get this feeling, it was a good, passable episode, but didn't feel any suspense, Sheppard looked really hot, and it didn't reach the level of suckitude that Irresponsible did, so it wasn't bad, but also not like a top five episode either.

anaM
January 9th, 2007, 12:14 PM
I really loved this episode. It was good classic science fiction to me, space, danger, suspence . And I loved it as an SGA episode, it was different and strong with wonderful character moments . Teyla was very good in the scenes with Jamus, I felt the desperation of both. Sheppard and Ronon fit very well together, loved Ronon's smile when Shep promised fighting to death.
IMO it's one of the top of S3 so far.

SGAFan
January 9th, 2007, 12:16 PM
I'll address this one, since it makes a good point:

In my head (and, I feel, in my script as well) it was intended that this situation the team was in was an impossible one. With no fuel in the shuttle, it was absolutely impossible to save the civilization in the wraith device without, at the very least sacrificing the pilot of the shuttle -- and even then it was very unlikely the device would survive the impact. It was that simple. One member of this new race doomed the rest of his people, and we couldn't do a damn thing about it.

And then Teyla was forced into the device -- and Sheppard made a decision. He couldn't let Teyla die without at least trying to save her. But in making this decision, Sheppard assumed he would die in the attempt. It was a suicide mission from the start. He simply hoped that he would somehow be able to get the shuttle, (and the device) clear of the station before he died. The shuttle was designed for re-entry - it was a gliding shuttle so once in the atmosphere it would have a chance at surviving the crash landing -- IF Sheppard could somehow miracoulously get it free of the station.

Now here's maybe what wasn't perfectly clear in the aired version (although it was clear to me...because it was in my head all along) -- The fact that the bolts didn't blow, and the shuttle didn't come free from the mooring at first is what saved Sheppard's (and Teyla's) life. Sheppard's plan was to try release the shuttle from the mooring, and hope that gravity carried him free of the moon through the damaged airlock. More likely he would have bounced around inside until the shuttle disintegrated, and killed everyone. This is pretty much what Sheppard expected. (In my original script, I made a little more out of Sheppard saying his goodbyes to the rest of his team. He never expected to live) However...because the bolts didn't blow...Sheppard got lucky. The station hit the atmosphere, and the moon burned up, from the outside in. But the moon wasn't solid, and the hollow pocket inside acted as a buffer. So when the shuttle broke free of its mooring, without slamming into any solid walls of rock -- It simply emerged from the rubble to continue the descent it was designed for.

Yes, it was lucky...this is a situation where all the piloting skill in the world would have been useless. If we had Sheppard do the impossible, and skillfully bring the shuttle down, I would have felt that was a cheat. Too super-hero. Sheppard was human here, surviving only because of dumb luck. And all because he refused to let Teyla go without a fight.

Anayway, this is how I saw it...and tried to write it...

Ken C

Hmm... well, I kind of got the feeling that Shep thought he wouldn't survive but would be damned if he'd just lay down and give up a member of his team without trying anything. That is so Sheppard!

I love the fact that he survived out of blind luck. LOL

Btw: I really liked how you brought in the "we dont leave people behind" aspect to the ep.. and even to Rodney. Nice touch! :D

I really liked this ep actually. Better than the last one IMHO. I thought it was a great "Team" Ep/stand alone/action episode.

I also liked how the "humor" was mixed into the drama. ROdney's snarking for example. LOL Much like Tao, I think the humor aspect of Stargate works so much better when its woven into the story, and not forced like Irresistible was. (Just IMHO)

I really enjoyed it. Thanks Ken! :D

Sheppard's Delight
January 9th, 2007, 12:22 PM
Hi Ken! Nice to see you here again.
Thanks for the explanation, it's great to hear about the episode from your perspective. I have to say, everything you say here is what I had gathered from the episode, so it all made sense to me. :) My only slight complaint, is that Sheppard should have been in the infirmary bed, and not Teyla. :lol:


This ep was fantastic - I loved every minute of it. Everyone got something to do - I was actually sitting on the edge of my seat. Sheppard flying the shuttle at the end was amazing. Everyone got somethingn to do and Teyla was wonderful. So nice to see her getting a decent role in this ep. Proabably my favourite ep of the season.

10/10

What they said!!! Although not my fave ep of the season that is of course Common Ground - I dont think anything could knock that off the top for me!

Franklyn Blaze
January 9th, 2007, 12:35 PM
...

Ok, now I get it. And I kind of assumed that after I was watched it and was trying to justify it in my brain. But the problem is that I had to read the statement above to get it. And that's not right. The scenes just didn't work. I think if Lorne, a pilot himself, had some flyboy techie talk to explain what Sheppard was doing, it would have made sense. And then McKay and Lorne talking it out as Sheppard falls thru the atmosphere. Hey, McKay and Lorne actually talking to each other, that would have been cool.

Somehow, I think I should have learned more about Sheppard from this episode, and I didn't. But, Teyla did get more lines than usual, so yay for that.

No offence to Ken C. or anyone else.
If an episode requires a rather lengthy addendum from a writer to explain the writing, isn't the episode then lacking in some area? As said above it's just not right.

ken_is_here
January 9th, 2007, 12:45 PM
Actually when you put it like that it clears some things up me. I can see now why you went for the fluke. What you're essentially saying is Sheppard not getting realeased when he wanted saved him and the civilization by accident and otherwise there was 0% chance of survival. I didn't quite get that by watching it but I get it now. But does it make all that much sense that Sheppard went on a certain suicide mission without any idea to save Teyla? I'm all for team comaraderie but is that not a bit of a stretch? It's almost like dying for dying's sake.

The alternative would have been spending the rest of his life wondering if he could have saved Teyla had he tried. Sheppard never gives up on his team. period. Even if it kills him.

FoolishPleasure
January 9th, 2007, 12:54 PM
No offence to Ken C. or anyone else.
If an episode requires a rather lengthy addendum from a writer to explain the writing, isn't the episode then lacking in some area? As said above it's just not right.

I was just going to post the same thing! Hey, if an episode doesn't go over, let's just have a writer come in and explain the situation to the folks and then they will understand everything that was supposed to happen that didn't come out in the script. *LOL*

ken_is_here
January 9th, 2007, 12:54 PM
That makes sense.. There's just one point that isn't clear to me (and maybe I am being a blonde, you never know :D)

You said that Sheppard expected to die from the start and that his original plan was that he would get the shuttle free from the station and then let it glide to the planet for a crah landing.. But wouldn't he have the same chance surviving this crash landing than the people in the device did? Why is this neccessarily a suicide mission?

Not getting free of the station would have destroyed the shuttle and killed everyone. The way it actually happened saved them all. I just don't really get the whole suicide mission part :o

Well I figure a large metal container would have a better chance at surviving a crash than a soft pink fleshy dude.

The only way to get free of the station (it was thought) was for Sheppard to release the shuttle from the mooring manually (from the cockpit) and hope that it "fell" threw the damaged outer doors rather than bouncing off the inner walls and shattering (there was no anti-grav at that point). This was a 100-1 shot. Sheppard was going for the long odds. And failed - because he couldn't release the shuttle as planned. Oops.

What he didn't plan on was the fact that once the moon hit the atmosphere, it burned up quickly, allowing the contents (the shuttle) to fly free of the wreckage. From there, all he had to do was try to keep the shuttle level upon landing to minimize the impact. Which he did.

Also...you are blond.

caty
January 9th, 2007, 01:01 PM
Well I figure a large metal container would have a better chance at surviving a crash than a soft pink fleshy dude.

The only way to get free of the station (it was thought) was for Sheppard to release the shuttle from the mooring manually (from the cockpit) and hope that it "fell" threw the damaged outer doors rather than bouncing off the inner walls and shattering (there was no anti-grav at that point). This was a 100-1 shot. Sheppard was going for the long odds. And failed - because he couldn't release the shuttle as planned. Oops.

What he didn't plan on was the fact that once the moon hit the atmosphere, it burned up quickly, allowing the contents (the shuttle) to fly free of the wreckage. From there, all he had to do was try to keep the shuttle level upon landing to minimize the impact. Which he did.

Also...you are blond.

Yes I am, and that's an excuse for asking stupid questions sometimes. It's always there when I need it :)
I love being blond :lol:

Honestly, I get it now. Thanks for clearing that up for me.. And thanks for calling Shep a "soft pink fleshy dude", loved that :lol:

ken_is_here
January 9th, 2007, 01:02 PM
Ya but crashing a at speed faster than a flying 747...no. And still having power systems intact to bring back 1000 people. Sorry can't sell me on that.

Keep in mind this was a shuttle, not a plane. A shuttle designed to slow down when it hits the atmosphere, and glide to Earth on air streams (as set up by Sheppards comment that it had a "lifting body" design similar to old Nasa shuttles.) This is what it was designed to do. It wouldn't be a very effective re-entry shuttle if it slammed to earth like a crashing plane.

Ken

ken_is_here
January 9th, 2007, 01:12 PM
No offence to Ken C. or anyone else.
If an episode requires a rather lengthy addendum from a writer to explain the writing, isn't the episode then lacking in some area? As said above it's just not right.

Absolutely. If you didn't take away from the episode what I was trying to get across, then the fault lies with me, not you.

Linzi
January 9th, 2007, 01:12 PM
Well I figure a large metal container would have a better chance at surviving a crash than a soft pink fleshy dude.

The only way to get free of the station (it was thought) was for Sheppard to release the shuttle from the mooring manually (from the cockpit) and hope that it "fell" threw the damaged outer doors rather than bouncing off the inner walls and shattering (there was no anti-grav at that point). This was a 100-1 shot. Sheppard was going for the long odds. And failed - because he couldn't release the shuttle as planned. Oops.

What he didn't plan on was the fact that once the moon hit the atmosphere, it burned up quickly, allowing the contents (the shuttle) to fly free of the wreckage. From there, all he had to do was try to keep the shuttle level upon landing to minimize the impact. Which he did.

Also...you are blond.
I'm blonde too!
I'm glad you've come to chat to us here about the writing, because I think it's fascinating to hear the writers thoughts.

Linzi
January 9th, 2007, 01:14 PM
Absolutely. If you didn't take away from the episode what I was trying to get across, then the fault lies with me, not you.
Well, I suppose it lies with the individual, because I understood what you meant, and I loved the episode. Thank goodness we're all different.

watcher652
January 9th, 2007, 01:14 PM
Well I figure a large metal container would have a better chance at surviving a crash than a soft pink fleshy dude.

The only way to get free of the station (it was thought) was for Sheppard to release the shuttle from the mooring manually (from the cockpit) and hope that it "fell" threw the damaged outer doors rather than bouncing off the inner walls and shattering (there was no anti-grav at that point). This was a 100-1 shot. Sheppard was going for the long odds. And failed - because he couldn't release the shuttle as planned. Oops.

What he didn't plan on was the fact that once the moon hit the atmosphere, it burned up quickly, allowing the contents (the shuttle) to fly free of the wreckage. From there, all he had to do was try to keep the shuttle level upon landing to minimize the impact. Which he did.

Ok, that's way more explanation than I got from the episode. I know you have to walk a fine line between hitting us over the head with an obvious explanation and letting us figure it out, but think this time we really needed somebody, like a pilot or an astrophysicist, to explain that to us.

I was really surprised that Sheppard crashed into the ground. At the rate he was going I was expecting a more cushioned landing with more sand dunes since there wasn't any snow around.

And he was still conscious at the end? I was expecting Rodney to exclaim, "You're alive?! You should be dead! Why aren't you dead?" Then some finger snapping and some back and forth between McKay, Lorne and Sheppard. Of course, it's easy to come in after the shoot with what could make it better.

I totally missed that "lifting body" statement.

Oka
January 9th, 2007, 01:15 PM
OK episode, way better than "The Game". I didn't think the episode really started to get interesting until the end, and then it was over - it was like I was just waiting for the end to happen. The whole "last remnants of an ancient civilization almost getting wiped out storyline" didn't really grab me. The actions of the guy who lost his wife/kid pissed me off, and it felt sort of exaggerated. Of course you always knew that the Atlantis team was going to survive unscathed so the suspense wasn't really there for me.

I loved the sets though, excellent work by whoever makes them. Nice SFX too but they were sort of wasted in this episode. I usually like Rodney but he was a little TOO much over the top this episode, tone him down a little please. Sheppard saves the day as always by piloting a completely alien space shuttle, no surprise there =P I didn't like Teyla in this episode. Everything she said just felt forced and I was waiting for her to kick that old mans ass and take it gun but alas it never happened. That was the final nail in the coffin for me, Teyla has to go! I usually don't like Ronon but in this episode he was all right although he didn't have much to do.

Some funny banter, all right story line and execution, it dragged a bit and it wasn't exactly original television - though it has to be said, I liked it way more than The Game and many other episodes this season: 6.5/10.

FoolishPleasure
January 9th, 2007, 01:32 PM
Absolutely. If you didn't take away from the episode what I was trying to get across, then the fault lies with me, not you.

In another thread you mentioned Brad doing some "polishing up" on your scripts. Let's blame him. ;)

Pegasus_SGA
January 9th, 2007, 01:35 PM
Just watched it and thoroughly enjoyed it :)

Although there were a couple of bits I wanted to skip past on the whole, I thought the setting was great, it was so nice to see a different set. Not that Atlantis isn't wonderful of course *g*.

I don't know why, but this had a different feel to it compared to other eps. It wasn't something I could put my finger on, but maybe it was the feel of it. Everyone on the team seemed to be working together to achieve a goal even though they were all seperated, it felt as if the team was together... Does that make any sense at all, lol?

The story line was original, and not like the lifeboat which is what it was compared to (in my opinion). I also liked the vibes I got off the way the team handled the situation, bit like the 3 muskateers, lol, all for one and one for all... yes I know there was 4, but that's just semantics :D

I really enjoyed seeing the different sections of the ship, and loved some of the character development...they've bonded *vbg* Personally this is what i've wanted to see in S3, Teyla having the opportunity to have a fair few lines and she did a great job :) And although i've never shipped for anyone in Atlantis, the ending was very sweet and could be construed as shippiness :) I'm on the fence on this, lol. I think the ending showed just how close the team has become and it was a perfect :)

Does the team have new uniforms? Because Sheppard looked really hot in that black top and with the man tools. *sorry having a fangirl moment* and we had whump, yeah!

I really enjoyed that Ronon is a claustrophobic, hehehe maybe he and Rondney could compare notes, lol. I also think it shows how much his character has grown since Runner. It reflects quite eloquently how much he's settled in as part of the team and feels secure enough to share his little phobias. And that's a nice side to see of him.

Loved McKay and his betting, lol, when he gets back to Earth he's going to be penniless, isn't that at least 2 1/2 months pay he's lost in a matter of weeks *g*, and it was nice that Rodney is learning the whole meaning behind not leaving his people behind *vbg*

And we got to see Beckett and Lorne and to :) so for me it was really enjoyable...

There's probably lots more that i've missed out, but hey, that's what repeats are for :)

LoveConquers
January 9th, 2007, 01:40 PM
I'll address this one, since it makes a good point:

In my head (and, I feel, in my script as well) it was intended that this situation the team was in was an impossible one. With no fuel in the shuttle, it was absolutely impossible to save the civilization in the wraith device without, at the very least sacrificing the pilot of the shuttle -- and even then it was very unlikely the device would survive the impact. It was that simple. One member of this new race doomed the rest of his people, and we couldn't do a damn thing about it.

And then Teyla was forced into the device -- and Sheppard made a decision. He couldn't let Teyla die without at least trying to save her. But in making this decision, Sheppard assumed he would die in the attempt. It was a suicide mission from the start. He simply hoped that he would somehow be able to get the shuttle, (and the device) clear of the station before he died. The shuttle was designed for re-entry - it was a gliding shuttle so once in the atmosphere it would have a chance at surviving the crash landing -- IF Sheppard could somehow miracoulously get it free of the station.

Now here's maybe what wasn't perfectly clear in the aired version (although it was clear to me...because it was in my head all along) -- The fact that the bolts didn't blow, and the shuttle didn't come free from the mooring at first is what saved Sheppard's (and Teyla's) life. Sheppard's plan was to try release the shuttle from the mooring, and hope that gravity carried him free of the moon through the damaged airlock. More likely he would have bounced around inside until the shuttle disintegrated, and killed everyone. This is pretty much what Sheppard expected. (In my original script, I made a little more out of Sheppard saying his goodbyes to the rest of his team. He never expected to live) However...because the bolts didn't blow...Sheppard got lucky. The station hit the atmosphere, and the moon burned up, from the outside in. But the moon wasn't solid, and the hollow pocket inside acted as a buffer. So when the shuttle broke free of its mooring, without slamming into any solid walls of rock -- It simply emerged from the rubble to continue the descent it was designed for.

Yes, it was lucky...this is a situation where all the piloting skill in the world would have been useless. If we had Sheppard do the impossible, and skillfully bring the shuttle down, I would have felt that was a cheat. Too super-hero. Sheppard was human here, surviving only because of dumb luck. And all because he refused to let Teyla go without a fight.

Anayway, this is how I saw it...and tried to write it...

Ken C


Ken, thank you so much for this! I have to admit, I wasn't clear on how exactly the shuttle didn't explode as well, so that makes much more sense to me now! I did get that it was a suicide mission for John, and I love that you wrote the mentality of his character that way. And I love that you made him more human in the result as well. Well done!

If I may ask one other character question. At the end, John made light of his efforts, as we have seen him do many times when he has played the hero and risked his life for a member of his team. Is this to show that he is uncomfortable with emotion and uses humor to cover it? Sorry if this is a silly question, but I am fascinated by character motivation and am thrilled with the opportunity to be able to chat with the writer directly.

Thank you!

Luz
January 9th, 2007, 01:45 PM
I know I'm probably going to get some grunts for this, but as much as I love team episodes, why does it always have to imply so little Weir? (rhetoric question here), she's my favorite character, so having so many Weir-lite episodes makes me lose interest. That's only one of the many things that made this episode just okay-ish, aside from how it just dragged on and on, and I didn't feel any sense of urgency.
It was like Sheppard went on a suicidal mission again just for the sake of having him going into a death situation again.
And I agree with whoever said that it's not like anyone thinks that Sheppard (or any member of the team) can die.

ken_is_here
January 9th, 2007, 01:46 PM
Ken, thank you so much for this! I have to admit, I wasn't clear on how exactly the shuttle didn't explode as well, so that makes much more sense to me now! I did get that it was a suicide mission for John, and I love that you wrote the mentality of his character that way. And I love that you made him more human in the result as well. Well done!

If I may ask one other character question. At the end, John made light of his efforts, as we have seen him do many times when he has played the hero and risked his life for a member of his team. Is this to show that he is uncomfortable with emotion and uses humor to cover it? Sorry if this is a silly question, but I am fascinated by character motivation and am thrilled with the opportunity to be able to chat with the writer directly.

Thank you!

I wouldn't say he's uncomfortable with emotion, just that like a lot of guys, it is easier to brush things off with a joke, then to speak from the heart. What we feel and what we say are often two different things. Something to remember ladies. It's like we guys are from, say...mars...and women are from some completely different planet. For example: Venus. Hey, I should write a book.

localfocus
January 9th, 2007, 01:48 PM
I have a question Ken, If I may. How do you go about getting fandom reaction to the episodes and the writing. Such as, how are you finding out what fans feel about this episode. I'm not trying to ask something dangerous to answer, like what you think of it, or what credence you or the rest of the TBTB give it, but how you go about getting it.

I'm asking this because SGA fandom is very different from SG1 fandom, and most fans aren't on Gateworld, they're on Livejournal. (A set of interconnected blogs that revolutionized all the fandoms that came after its inception in the same way blogs revolutionized the Internet. But is unmodded and aimed for fans not the TBTB.) Gateworld is home to certain groups of fans, while Livejournal has very different groups and thus usually a completely different average opinion to things. Such as with Damian's 'Tao of Rodney' which got a cautious positive on GW whereas Livejournal went *insane* with adoration (averagely). Gateworld came out before LJ and so opinions and fan groups on SG1 is more balanced. And now you have Hewlett's new forum on adogsbreakfast.com (ADB). While there is some overlap between particular groups that divide their time between GW and LJ, (or now ADB) most fans IMO don't cross over.

How do you go about gathering fan opinion for an episode such a 'The Ark' when there are significant differences not only between fan groups (such as characters and Ships) but fan areas, particularly between Gateworld, Livejournal. and ADB. Particularly since LJ, the largest, is difficult to navigate and makes no effort to moderate itself for TBTB.

(I'm so going to get in trouble for this from LJers, the first rule of LJ is not to talk about LJ. But I'm curious dangit, with SGA fandom made up and distributed completely differently than SG1 fandom, I wonder how the TBTB are going to deal with fandom now that SG1 is off the air.)

LoveConquers
January 9th, 2007, 01:49 PM
I wouldn't say he's uncomfortable with emotion, just that like a lot of guys, it is easier to brush things off with a joke, then to speak from the heart. What we feel and what we say are often two different things. Something to remember ladies. It's like we guys are from, say...mars...and women are from some completely different planet. For example: Venus. Hey, I should write a book.

LOL! I think that book would be quite popular. ;) Thank you for the quick response!

ken_is_here
January 9th, 2007, 01:49 PM
I know I'm probably going to get some grunts for this, but as much as I love team episodes, why does it always have to imply so little Weir?, she's my favorite character, so having so many Weir-lite episodes makes me lose interest. That's only one of the many things that made this episode just okay-ish, aside from how it just dragged on and on, and I didn't feel any sense of urgency.

The bottom line is that Weir is in charge of Atlantis. She has to maintain the day to day operations. She can't just go off on field missions because she has other responsibilities...much like General Landry on SG:1.

Having said that...Weir does indeed go on a rare field mission in Submersion - and quickly learns that perhaps it is better to stay in the warm cozy confines of Atlantis.

Pegasus_SGA
January 9th, 2007, 01:50 PM
The alternative would have been spending the rest of his life wondering if he could have saved Teyla had he tried. Sheppard never gives up on his team. period. Even if it kills him.

Point well made Ken and welcome to the thread again :D You said it in a nutshell, that is who Sheppard is, it's his natural instincts to save members of his team, they're his family and even if he has to die trying he'll protect them to the end. Which is why it makes him such a loveable and very thunkable character. :)

Luz
January 9th, 2007, 01:52 PM
The bottom line is that Weir is in charge of Atlantis. She has to maintain the day to day operations. She can't just go off on field missions because she has other responsibilities...much like General Landry on SG:1.

Having said that...Weir does indeed go on a rare field mission in Submersion - and quickly learns that perhaps it is better to stay in the warm cozy confines of Atlantis.
Thank you for the answer, but as I added (I edited the post) it was more of a rhetoric question, I'm aware of the fact that for tptb she's something like Hammond (only hotter ;)), I wasn't asking to get an answer because I already knew what you were going to say.
Just pointing one thing that doesn't make me happy, that's all.

SGAFan
January 9th, 2007, 01:54 PM
Well, I suppose it lies with the individual, because I understood what you meant, and I loved the episode. Thank goodness we're all different.

*agrees*

But I have to admit, I'm having so much fun reading your insights, Ken!

I guess I"m in the minority because I caught the "lifting" comment by Shep and got the feeling that he thought his chances were extremely long at best (which was good because I was arching my brow with a "oh that's just not a good plan..." thought) But then again, my father was an aeronatical engineer for Boeing, so stuff like physics and engineering have been a part of most of my life ;)

Tristen
January 9th, 2007, 01:54 PM
This episode was great! Wonderful character moments; it was so nice to see them all caring about each other again as opposed to the way things were in The Game.

Teyla seemed slightly off to me at first, but I really liked that she had more to do (and say!) in this episode. Very nice to see more of Teyla, and RL pulled it off well, too.

I also loved the emphasis on "not leaving anyone behind", especially hearing Rodney (of all people!) say that- it was magic to my ears :) It seems Sheppard's beginning to rub off on him! :D

As for the fluke, I didn't mind that at all. I completely agree with Ken that it would've made Sheppard too much of a superhero if he'd been able to pull the whole thing off smoothly exactly the way he'd planned it. Sometimes a little luck is all you need, and I for one liked that for once, Rodney did not have a solution. ;)

One gripe I do have is that, in my opinion, it could've been made a little clearer that Sheppard expected to die. I know Ken has said that, in his original script, Sheppard made a bigger deal of saying goodbye to his team, and I think it's a shame that didn't end up in the episode. It would have made it very clear to us that Sheppard was not being the eternal optimist this time, and that he was indeed expecting to die. Not to mention that it would've given us even more good team-moments ;)

But all in all, great team ep with great character moments, action and suspense. Oh, and a lovely scene with Teyla and Sheppard at the end. Very nice!

silence
January 9th, 2007, 01:56 PM
I didn't read other comments before posting my impressions.
I really liked this ep. It was great. I read spoilers and everything, but i never expected this. GREAT team moments. There was just enough humor to make ep even better, but not to turn it into something with L character....

Teyla and Ronon getting more screen time. VERY good. I really liked Teyla in this one. Ronon's lines were also great.


OK.. now to read other comments.
;)

ken_is_here
January 9th, 2007, 01:57 PM
I have a question Ken, If I may. How do you go about getting fandom reaction to the episodes and the writing. Such as, how are you finding out what fans feel about this episode. I'm not trying to ask something dangerous to answer, like what you think of it, or what credence you or the rest of the TBTB give it, but how you go about getting it.

I'm asking this because SGA fandom is very different from SG1 fandom, and most fans aren't on Gateworld, they're on Livejournal. (A set of interconnected blogs that revolutionized all the fandoms that came after its inception in the same way blogs revolutionized the Internet. But is unmodded and aimed for fans not the TBTB.) Gateworld is home to certain groups of fans, while Livejournal has very different groups and thus usually a completely different average opinion to things. Such as with Damian's 'Tao of Rodney' which got a cautious positive on GW whereas Livejournal went *insane* with adoration (averagely). Gateworld came out before LJ and so opinions and fan groups on SG1 is more balanced. And now you have Hewlett's new forum on adogsbreakfast.com (ADB) which prompted a large exodus of McKay fans, leaving Gateworld mostly McKay neutral or anti. While there is some overlap between particular groups that divide their time between GW and LJ, (or now ADB) most fans IMO don't cross over.

How do you go about gathering fan opinion for an episode such a 'The Ark' when there are significant differences not only between fan groups (such as characters and Ships) but fan areas, particularly between Gateworld, Livejournal. and ADB. Particularly since LJ, the largest, is difficult to navigate and makes no effort to moderate itself for TBTB.

(I'm so going to get in trouble for this from LJers, the first rule of LJ is not to talk about LJ. But I'm curious dangit, with SGA fandom made up and distributed completely differently than SG1 fandom, I wonder how the TBTB are going to deal with fandom now that SG1 is off the air.)


Well the truth is I don't really go seeking out fan opinions...I just drop by websites I enjoy and poke around. If I see something that perftains to me or my work, I'll often respond...simply because I enjoy the interaction. (I was a fan long before I was a writer)

So...whether my episodes are percieved as successes or failures is really besides the point (hindsight is 20/20 - It's not like I can go back in time and do a better job) and not really in my hands.

I don't really need to "deal" with fandom at all. I pop by here because I enjoy the feedback -- both negative and positive. It's all good!

So this LiveJournal...a little like "Fight Club?"

Ruined_puzzle
January 9th, 2007, 01:59 PM
The bottom line is that Weir is in charge of Atlantis. She has to maintain the day to day operations. She can't just go off on field missions because she has other responsibilities...much like General Landry on SG:1.


Atlantis based episodes FTW, I mean Echoes was AWESOME. Yes I know Sunday is an Atlantis set episode but what 3 out of 20 is not enough Weir for me. Sorry never watched SG1, so yeah no idea who your talking about. :S

SGAFan
January 9th, 2007, 01:59 PM
The bottom line is that Weir is in charge of Atlantis. She has to maintain the day to day operations. She can't just go off on field missions because she has other responsibilities...much like General Landry on SG:1.

Having said that...Weir does indeed go on a rare field mission in Submersion - and quickly learns that perhaps it is better to stay in the warm cozy confines of Atlantis.

OOH! now that does sound interesting.

Agreed on Weir, thats her job, just like its the job of Shep's team to get into constant peril. :lol:

still, its refreshing to see her go on missions every once in a while, sounds intriguing! :D

localfocus
January 9th, 2007, 02:02 PM
I understand. And livejournal isn't so much like "Fight Club" but it's fandom for fandom, and likes it that way.

FoolishPleasure
January 9th, 2007, 02:06 PM
So this LiveJournal...a little like "Fight Club?"

LJ is actually a much nicer version of MySpace, IMO. Individual spaces as well as "communities".

Check it out some day - www.livejournal.com :)

localfocus
January 9th, 2007, 02:14 PM
LJ is actually a much nicer version of MySpace, IMO. Individual spaces as well as "communities".

Check it out some day - www.livejournal.com :)

He may want to turn images off though ;) Some of those icons and images are . . . educational :)

silence
January 9th, 2007, 02:25 PM
Hmm... well, I kind of got the feeling that Shep thought he wouldn't survive but would be damned if he'd just lay down and give up a member of his team without trying anything. That is so Sheppard!

I love the fact that he survived out of blind luck. LOL

Btw: I really liked how you brought in the "we dont leave people behind" aspect to the ep.. and even to Rodney. Nice touch! :D

I really liked this ep actually. Better than the last one IMHO. I thought it was a great "Team" Ep/stand alone/action episode.

I also liked how the "humor" was mixed into the drama. ROdney's snarking for example. LOL Much like Tao, I think the humor aspect of Stargate works so much better when its woven into the story, and not forced like Irresistible was. (Just IMHO)

I really enjoyed it. Thanks Ken! :D

i couldn't say this better ... this is all i loved in this ep.. i will watch it again for sure, at least to get all the jokes and remarks :)

Alipeeps
January 9th, 2007, 02:27 PM
Okay, just got done watching and I have to post some thoughts before I go back and read everyone else's opinions! :D

First of all - I loved this ep. Thoroughly enjoyed it. It was a good and proper sci-fi, spaceship, rockets and artifical gravity adventure story and it was great! I loved the sci-fi and technical aspects of the story and I adored the excellent human relationships shown and the banter and the dialogue.

It was a nice change to see the team mixed up a bit - Sheppard with Ronon instead of McKay for example. Lovely to see some interaction and banter between those two - and we still got the McKay snark and banter etc without the whole show having to be the "Rodney and John" hour, as some people have criticised of late. Nice to see Teyla have some decent dialogue and real role to play in the story. Great to see Sheppard get to be a pilot and do his derring-do bit and lovely to see good use of Lorne too.

The guest actors were excellent and really sold their parts and made you care about their people and their history.

I absolutely adored the ending - I'm sure those who ship will enjoy a happy Sheyla moment there but on a purely team friendship level it was also wonderful and developed into some of that great banter that shows how close the team are.. also ties back nicely to Sheppard's conversation with Teyla in Sateda about how he would do anything for any one of his team.. and also again shows us that he prefers not to verbalise such things and as soon as the conversation looked like getting serious he turned it into a joke... lovely characterisation.

I loved McKay doom and gloom prognosis - yet all the while he was still working to find them a way out of it. Loved also the again wonderful team moments as McKay tried to tell Sheppard not to do what he was planning. Just lovely little moments there that really build on the bond between these people.

All in all, a fab episode of a science fiction show - we had a sci-fi plot set in space, we had danger, we had drama, we had humour and snark. A really good self-contained episode of SGA.

LadyBozi
January 9th, 2007, 02:39 PM
I found the episode somewhat boring in the beginning and ..ok..most of the time, sorry, until the ending when they started talking about HOW the people died and what really happend. I found that very interesting. It was okay.
Loved that Ronon is claustrophobic, gave him a normal weakness.
Liked the ending scene in between Sheppard and Teyla. Finally the whole ... "Teyla your adopted but I like you just as much, because were family" was Put to rest. lol. Kinda like Sateda opened that up and This epsiode Closed it.

Willow'sCat
January 9th, 2007, 02:50 PM
<> A backstage pass into my brain to see the genesis of a stargate: Atlantis ep...from premise to screen.
LOL You are a brave man. ;)

Now I like this one, everyone was in character for a change *cough* and you know what? Even the annoying aspects of McKay were normal rather then the OTT responses we often see from him.

I did love that Rodney asked Sheppard if he had anything to say before the end and Sheppard *being Sheppard* said no. Also liked that they mixed up the "coupling" of the characters, it was nice to see Sheppard with Dex, and Teyla with someone else; I think she suffers when placed with either Ronon or John, she never gets a word in, which is really odd as they are the two least verbal of the whole dam show normally. But separating everyone enable us to get a small glimpse into their personalities, or just the way they deal with impending death... John really has to get over his panic attacks! :P

The story, the structure and the general feel were scifi in the old school way. Seen this a million times, I particularly loved Doctor Who's take on it and even though I have seen this a million times (give or take a few thousand) I still enjoyed seeing this set up again. A few things were annoying; I agree the solution was not well thought out, or explained, I still think it was relying more on luck, I thought maybe it was going to be revealed at one stage that indeed John is now an ascended Ancient and can't actually die :rolleyes:


The alternative would have been spending the rest of his life wondering if he could have saved Teyla had he tried. Sheppard never gives up on his team. period. Even if it kills him.I am glad everyone else thought he was insane; it is all fine and dandy to have a "leave no man *cough* sorry, no one behind" mentality but when you endanger yourself and/or the rest of your TEAM to save that "one" it does become arrogant, and not to mention from a purely plot driven point of view predictable. :cool: I understand Sheppard is Jack but we know what Jack's motivations were, we know his past, we know he demons with Sheppard not so much... this makes Sheppard come off as highly arrogant IMHO. And if he is the sort of person who wonders about the "what ifs" maybe he shouldn't have become a pilot in the USAF. It seems to me that would have held a lot of "what ifs" in anyone's life. And don't they do Psych tests how did he pass? :p Also IMHO he left McKay behind...(Runner) don't tell me he doesn't leave people behind!!!!

Well... anyway in the end I would give this a place in the not sucky episodes of season 3, it isn't as great as M&MM but it certainly was better then the "I" eps and at least I didn't fall asleep now that is saying something since it was 1am by the time I got to watch this.


leaving Gateworld mostly McKay neutral or anti.LOL! I don't agree with that. :mckayanime03: And since it is completely off topic...that is all I will say on the matter in here.

Alipeeps
January 9th, 2007, 02:51 PM
Okay then, my thoughts and responses on various issues raised in the thread..


I found it extremely problematic in this episode that McKay and Sheppard reiterated several times that there was no possible way that the survivors of that civilization could be saved yet in several seconds they could work out a solution once Teyla got sucked in. Are our heroes declining in bravery and moral standards as every season passes? What was the issue here? Were they just too damn lazy? Do they just not care? "Uh, I save a civilization every week, can't be bothered this week".

I thought this showed the characters up badly. I also thought the deus ex machina that resulted in Sheppard's shuttle just emerging from the flames like a phoenix to be particularly weak. It was just pure corny fluke.

Also, Ronon seems to become more of a cartoon character every week. I could tell from the start of that scene before it was even said his arm was dislocated that he was going to pop his own arm back in. I should not be able to do that but that's how predictably cartoonish he's become.

Not the worst effort at an episode by any means but it contained a few major problems it and also it wasn't that original.

I know Ken covered this but my immediate understanding from watching the ep was that Sheppard was risking his life for just the slimmest chance of saving Teyla. Whilst he would not have risked almost certain death for the people in storage, he would take that chance for his friend and risk dying in her place - because that's who Sheppard is. As he said to Teyla in Sateda "I'd do any thing for any one of you. If I had to give my life, like Ronon did, I would."

As for Ronon.. yeah, whilst it might have been a tad obvious that Ronon would put his own shoulder back into place..,. ya gotta admit it is SO perfectly in character for him! :D And I loved it for that reason alone... and also for Sheppard's disbelieving - and slightly squicked - reaction! :lol:


Hi all,

Once a few more viewers have had a chance to check out the ep, I'll be by to discuss the story from a writer's POV. A backstage pass into my brain to see the genesis of a stargate: Atlantis ep...from premise to screen.

Later,
Ken C

Hah. I've peeked at your blog, Your brain is a strange and scary place.. ;) :D


I'll address this one, since it makes a good point:

In my head (and, I feel, in my script as well) it was intended that this situation the team was in was an impossible one. With no fuel in the shuttle, it was absolutely impossible to save the civilization in the wraith device without, at the very least sacrificing the pilot of the shuttle -- and even then it was very unlikely the device would survive the impact. It was that simple. One member of this new race doomed the rest of his people, and we couldn't do a damn thing about it.

[snipped for length]

Anayway, this is how I saw it...and tried to write it...

Ken C

Thanks for explaining that. As I said above, i actually kinda got that he was taking a desperate chance in the hope of saving Teyla - it perhaps wasn't made crystal clear just how slim his chances of survival were but I got that that was the essence of his decision - he was prepared to give up his life for a chance at saving his friend.

Interesting to read the explanation of how the malfunction of the separation system actually saved him. Stuff like that is cool to know... the ep works fine without that more detailed knowledge but it adds a layer of interest to have that explained here. :)


Actually when you put it like that it clears some things up me. I can see now why you went for the fluke. What you're essentially saying is Sheppard not getting realeased when he wanted saved him and the civilization by accident and otherwise there was 0% chance of survival. I didn't quite get that by watching it but I get it now. But does it make all that much sense that Sheppard went on a certain suicide mission without any idea to save Teyla? I'm all for team comaraderie but is that not a bit of a stretch? It's almost like dying for dying's sake.

But again, that is who Sheppard is. He said as much to Teyla in Sateda. It's not that he wants to die but if he could save one of his friends by giving up his own life... he'd do it.


The alternative would have been spending the rest of his life wondering if he could have saved Teyla had he tried. Sheppard never gives up on his team. period. Even if it kills him.

Indeed. :D


I know I'm probably going to get some grunts for this, but as much as I love team episodes, why does it always have to imply so little Weir? (rhetoric question here), she's my favorite character, so having so many Weir-lite episodes makes me lose interest. That's only one of the many things that made this episode just okay-ish, aside from how it just dragged on and on, and I didn't feel any sense of urgency.
It was like Sheppard went on a suicidal mission again just for the sake of having him going into a death situation again.
And I agree with whoever said that it's not like anyone thinks that Sheppard (or any member of the team) can die.

I kinda see your point but I guess it is a simple fact of logistics when the team are on an off-world mission. I think Weir integrates beautifully into team missions when the script allows it - Echoes was a wonderful team ep and Weir was involved in every aspect of the story and I loved it. Not every ep can be set on Atlantis though...


I wouldn't say he's uncomfortable with emotion, just that like a lot of guys, it is easier to brush things off with a joke, then to speak from the heart. What we feel and what we say are often two different things. Something to remember ladies. It's like we guys are from, say...mars...and women are from some completely different planet. For example: Venus. Hey, I should write a book.

*heee* As I said, Ken's brain = very odd place... in a good way! ;) :D


The bottom line is that Weir is in charge of Atlantis. She has to maintain the day to day operations. She can't just go off on field missions because she has other responsibilities...much like General Landry on SG:1.

Having said that...Weir does indeed go on a rare field mission in Submersion - and quickly learns that perhaps it is better to stay in the warm cozy confines of Atlantis.

Oooh thanks for that little teaser. That sounds very interesting! Thanks again for taking the time to pop in here and share your thoughts and insights... and random oddness.... :D :D

Oka
January 9th, 2007, 02:52 PM
Anyone else notice this?

http://img230.imageshack.us/img230/8839/snickersgb1.png

How did they miss that? LOL

The Ori
January 9th, 2007, 02:52 PM
TPTB are on crack man!

Why are they making such crap episodes!! One reason I like stargate is because that it is individual story lines and very good, but if its individual story lines and very crap like most of season 3 has been thenits starts to get boring.

Don't get me wrong I love stargate and always will even if it gets to the point where it is the worst show on TV, but I can understand why Sci-Fi cancelled SG-1.

I just hope that Atlantis doesn't go in the same direction!!

watcher652
January 9th, 2007, 02:53 PM
I know I'm probably going to get some grunts for this, but as much as I love team episodes, why does it always have to imply so little Weir? (rhetoric question here), she's my favorite character, so having so many Weir-lite episodes makes me lose interest.

I have to say that this particular episode should have been light on Weir. Her forte is diplomacy and languages. Neither skill was needed in this episode. Now in episodes where she should be involved, say like The Game, she's written poorly and is about as good a diplomat as Sheppard and McKay.

I'm just grateful that Teyla got some lines.

langdonboom
January 9th, 2007, 03:04 PM
You can tell the producers thought this episode was lacking in the gripping department because they used the tired old flash-forward-to-brink-of-jeapordy and then go "eight hours back" to start the story.

Its a cheap way to give the boring scenes inbetween this and when we get back to it a kind of weight because you know something bad is going to eventually happen.

But we ALWAYS know this in episodic television, and here it just seems like a last-minute edit room patch on a script that just didn't have it (I agree its a rehash of the 'save the remnants of the civilization' we've seen before).

I'm not ready to give up on SGA yet though.

SGAFan
January 9th, 2007, 03:07 PM
:lol: ! D'oh!

Willow'sCat
January 9th, 2007, 03:11 PM
You can tell the producers thought this episode was lacking in the gripping department because they used the tired old flash-forward-to-brink-of-jeapordy and then go "eight hours back" to start the story.LOL, that always makes want to ff and see what happens next but since it was the big dam hero of the show, I knew all would end well....

This is all part of the revival on SGA of 1970s style TV. :P *too harsh* :D

Luz
January 9th, 2007, 03:12 PM
I kinda see your point but I guess it is a simple fact of logistics when the team are on an off-world mission. I think Weir integrates beautifully into team missions when the script allows it - Echoes was a wonderful team ep and Weir was involved in every aspect of the story and I loved it. Not every ep can be set on Atlantis though...

Yeah, I understand this, and as I said it was just a gripe I had with this episode. I know the reasons for her absence, just imagine having to put up with many *many* episodes without much Sheppard in a season (which is what you have to put up with if you're a fan of either Weir or Teyla) it gets tiring.
The episode had many thinks that I like, good team moments, McShep, Ronon being all manly and hot, Sheppard looking all hot and being all heroic, however it just didn't grab me, and I can't point what was lacking, maybe it was that I didn't feel any sense of urgency, and yeah, I knew Sheppard thought he wasn't going to make it, but it wasn't like in the Siege 2 with all the angst, even if I knew he wasn't going to die (because come on! like they're going to kill him) there was a certain sadness, and the characters reacted accordingly, here it was like "oh, Sheppard is going to get himself killed yet again, yeah right! :rolleyes: ".

HyperCaz
January 9th, 2007, 03:24 PM
Anyone else notice this?

http://img230.imageshack.us/img230/8839/snickersgb1.png

How did they miss that? LOL

HAHAHA!!! What's the time stamp on that?

Oka
January 9th, 2007, 03:29 PM
HAHAHA!!! What's the time stamp on that?
15:22

Pegasus_SGA
January 9th, 2007, 03:29 PM
TPTB are on crack man!

Why are they making such crap episodes!! One reason I like stargate is because that it is individual story lines and very good, but if its individual story lines and very crap like most of season 3 has been thenits starts to get boring.

Don't get me wrong I love stargate and always will even if it gets to the point where it is the worst show on TV, but I can understand why Sci-Fi cancelled SG-1.

I just hope that Atlantis doesn't go in the same direction!!

What was it about the ep...or eps that you found crap? If you like the individual storylines, what was it about the ep you didn't like? Just curious...

HyperCaz
January 9th, 2007, 03:31 PM
15:22

thanks :D ok so Snickers and water bottle...what's that blue thing?

freyr's mother
January 9th, 2007, 03:44 PM
thanks :D ok so Snickers and water bottle...what's that blue thing?

I thought that was a snickers wrapper.

jenks
January 9th, 2007, 03:59 PM
I thought that was the worst Atlantis ep to date, other than the escape from the 'moon' it was utter crap imo.

I noticed the Snickers wrapper too, surely it was an intentional goof?

ken_is_here
January 9th, 2007, 04:03 PM
You can tell the producers thought this episode was lacking in the gripping department because they used the tired old flash-forward-to-brink-of-jeapordy and then go "eight hours back" to start the story.

Its a cheap way to give the boring scenes inbetween this and when we get back to it a kind of weight because you know something bad is going to eventually happen.

But we ALWAYS know this in episodic television, and here it just seems like a last-minute edit room patch on a script that just didn't have it (I agree its a rehash of the 'save the remnants of the civilization' we've seen before).

I'm not ready to give up on SGA yet though.

Well, this last minute edit patch actually appeared in writing in the very first draft. I wanted to open the show with a little bit of Vertigo -- jump right into the action, then start to reveal the layers that led to that moment. If you felt it was cheap, that's cool...but it was scripted not patched in during editing.

#1SomeGuy
January 9th, 2007, 04:06 PM
Meh, sorta half good, but overall bad. It felt very disjointed, it didn't flow, we're thrown into this place, how'd we find it? We just are suddenly exploring random space station on rock, power it on, people go crazy, omg we're going to fire the engines...wait, the engines are pointed at what? the space station? that makes no sense. It gets all mucked up and we lose a jumper for no good reason, why'd we have to lose the jumper? the station was still broken and the same fixes were necessary for the second jumper to dock...just seemed like an excuse to get more people there?

It just didn't flow very nicely and was kind of boring really...the re-entry part was obviously predictable, you know he's not going to die on landing, but come on, a few injuries please. Then not getting to see what happens to the people, or the rematerializing, just the reset button is pressed and everyone is home in atlantis again.

And uhm MORAL ISSUE...why did nobody seem to care that they killed all their own people with nukes?!?!?! They nuked the damn planet, knowing damn well that only the people on the shuttle would have survived and nobody else. That's horrible...stand together and fight, don't just go homocidal on everyone!

Lousy episode, some good moments, but lousy.

Starxgate
January 9th, 2007, 04:09 PM
This episode had some nice character moments & the score was awesome but overall it was boring

TheReturnOfTheLantian
January 9th, 2007, 04:09 PM
so it's that bad eh?? i shall not go with you lot till i see the episode and ive liked every episode of SG-1 n Atlantis to date. :P

HyperCaz
January 9th, 2007, 04:10 PM
Well, this last minute edit patch actually appeared in writing in the very first draft. I wanted to open the show with a little bit of Vertigo -- jump right into the action, then start to reveal the layers that led to that moment. If you felt it was cheap, that's cool...but it was scripted not patched in during editing.

I always like those openers though...call me lame...but I like seeing how that moment unfolds throughout the episode, no matter how slow paced it is.

LoveConquers
January 9th, 2007, 04:16 PM
I always like those openers though...call me lame...but I like seeing how that moment unfolds throughout the episode, no matter how slow paced it is.

Same here. :)

Starxgate
January 9th, 2007, 04:23 PM
Am I the only one that wants to see :sheppard: & :ronan: fight to the death ?

SGAFan
January 9th, 2007, 04:26 PM
so it's that bad eh?? i shall not go with you lot till i see the episode and ive liked every episode of SG-1 n Atlantis to date. :P

Well, you'll also find that several of us rather enjoyed it. ;)

LoveConquers
January 9th, 2007, 04:28 PM
Am I the only one that wants to see :sheppard: & :ronan: fight to the death ?


LOL! Loved that bit! :)

I also loved Rodney's wanting to keep on trying to save them even after Lorne shown up. The way he kind of muttered, "we leave no man behind," was just so adorable. Great character moment for Rodney. :)

Starxgate
January 9th, 2007, 04:30 PM
LOL! Loved that bit! :)

I hope the writers remember that bit they could have fun with it. Like in a future episode :ronan: & :sheppard: could get stuck somewhere & all hope is lost & :ronan: brings up that :sheppard: still owes him a fight & :sheppard: & :ronan: get ready to fight then help arrives before the first punch is given

langdonboom
January 9th, 2007, 04:34 PM
Well, this last minute edit patch actually appeared in writing in the very first draft. I wanted to open the show with a little bit of Vertigo -- jump right into the action, then start to reveal the layers that led to that moment. If you felt it was cheap, that's cool...but it was scripted not patched in during editing.

I stand corrected.

No offense, but it did seem like an over-used device that wasn't respecting the story on its own merits. I actually think the episode would have been fine or perhaps even more mysterious feeling if we didn't have the flash-forward. My amatuer opinion!

watcher652
January 9th, 2007, 04:52 PM
Oh, I forgot to mention that line Rodney had about using a Mac.


"Unfortunately, the computer froze. It was completely locked up. Probably should have used a Mac."

Little grin and a head bob. That was so funny! Even though Stargate seems to be a Dell shop, I know David Hewlett personally uses a Mac. I wonder if that was written in or an ad lib that stuck.

Ruined_puzzle
January 9th, 2007, 04:54 PM
Macs are LOVE.

Willow'sCat
January 9th, 2007, 04:56 PM
That was so funny! Even though Stargate seems to be a Dell shop, I know David Hewlett personally uses a Mac. I wonder if that was written in or an ad lib that stuck.
See I thought that was a lame line, not funny at all and really out of place for the moment. If this was one of those fun eps it would have worked but it felt forced. *shrugs*

leelakin
January 9th, 2007, 04:57 PM
Am I the only one that wants to see :sheppard: & :ronan: fight to the death ?
Hehe! Well, not seriously to death... but some stick fights with those two would be awesome. =)

The Ark was... I can't say that I found the plot very interesting. The whole 'civilizations bottled up in ships or pods and waiting to repopulate some planet' is a cool thing, but it's not the first time this has been used.

I thought the new sets were REALLY cool though, loved it! And the 'snickers' cap is awesome, I don't think it was intentional, though. *lol*
The special effects were great, too, the space station and Shep breaking through the atmosphere looked awesome.

Though another thing I felt (I've only watched the ep once so far) was that it really didn't give me a sense of impending doom/danger. I mean, sure, I knew there was danger. But it was more like a generic "there isn't a chance in hell they WON'T survive this" danger and I caught myself spacing out on a lot of the dialogue in the first half of the ep.
Too bad Teyla didn't get more emotional scenes/more interaction with the other main characters, I was kinda expecting that.

In total... hmm, 5/10.

watcher652
January 9th, 2007, 05:01 PM
See I thought that was a lame line, not funny at all and really out of place for the moment. If this was one of those fun eps it would have worked but it felt forced. *shrugs*
What's really funny is that the only one who would get the reference would be Sheppard.

theonebluegecko
January 9th, 2007, 05:16 PM
I loved the line in the first episode this season where McKay mentioned to Ronon that "I am glad I still remember DOS" or something to that effect, and then just explained that it was very funny. The Mac line reminded me of it.

All in all I thought the episode was great an had a lot of good moments. I loved how McKay was willing to stay and leave behind even if it meant possibly risking himself to a degree. I loved how Sheppard was disgusted by how Ronon popped his should back in place. And the whole fight the the death part was good.

Over all it was a fun episode with a good plot, good character interaction scenes, and a lot of good lines.

(Also to note, I did enjoyed the opening, it really made you wonder how they would get to that situation.)

Fifer
January 9th, 2007, 05:17 PM
Cheers for coming on and posting here Ken. I can't tell you how fascinating it is to read the thoughts of the very guy who wrote the episode i just watched. Its a bit bizarre...but the good bizarre. :)

Firstly i would start off by saying that this was by no means my favourite episode of Atlantis to date but it certainly wasn't a weak "season filler" episode because it did provide us with some useful moments. If we are talking favourites then your last effort, "Common Ground", was a belter.

I saw someone earlier call Ronon a "cartoon character" because of the way he reset his dislocated shoulder. This is a man who survived being hunted by the Wraith for 7 years and slaughtered god knows how many during Sateda. I think reseting his shoulder would be a piece of cake. :cool:

Somebody else criticised Ken for the lack of condemnation and disgust at the actions of this civilisation. We have to remember that Jamus told Teyla what happened when they were alone. You saw how horrified Teyla was but perhaps she chose to keep this to herself instead of sharing it with the expedition? Jamus died from his injuries and Teyla perhaps thought no good could come from the widespread knowledge of how this civilisation has acted. Maybe Teyla was offering this civilisation a clean slate through her unilateral actions? I dunno, i'm just throwing it out there.

Now for me the main thing i got out of this episode was how much the team has bonded but in particular the friendship that is starting to develop between Mckay and Sheppard. These are two guys, to be frank, that in normal circumstances just shouldn't be pals but you can see from Rodney's statement: "Please don't do this!", that they have become quite tight. I thought that was pretty powerful and a good bit of writing. While we have seen evidence of their friendship before this was evidence of how much Rodney cared. Credit to you for that.

All in all i would say it was a decent three quarters of an hour but it isn't in any danger of breaching my Top 5 list.

By the way Ken, i usually don't notice stuff like this, but how do the life-signs detectors work if there is a piece of material separating the detector from the skin(when they were in the spacesuits they were still able to use it)? In such an instance how do does the device interact with the gene which i always imagined was done through contact with flesh like when they manipulate the gel on the control chairs?

I'm not nitpicking, just curious is all. Its not a big deal really.

theonebluegecko
January 9th, 2007, 05:21 PM
By the way Ken, i usually don't notice stuff like this, but how do the life-signs detectors work if there is a piece of material separating the detector from the skin(when they were in the spacesuits they were still able to use it)? In such an instance how do does the device interact with the gene which i always imagined was done through contact with flesh like when they manipulate the gel on the control chairs?

I'm not nitpicking, just curious is all. Its not a big deal really.

I believe that the Life Signs Detector only requires the gene on initial activation. I am fairly certain with have seen people without the gene at all use it in the past.

jenks
January 9th, 2007, 05:35 PM
I believe that the Life Signs Detector only requires the gene on initial activation. I am fairly certain with have seen people without the gene at all use it in the past.

According to Sheppard you need the gene, when he handed it to that colonel guy he say 'won't do you any good, you need the gene'.

Alipeeps
January 9th, 2007, 05:38 PM
I believe that the Life Signs Detector only requires the gene on initial activation. I am fairly certain with have seen people without the gene at all use it in the past.

Hmmm, don't think so. Evidence from The Siege Part II indicates that you have to have the gene to operate it.. Sheppard tells Everett so, saying the LSD won't work for him and Everett smugly holds up the functioning LSD saying he got the gene therapy just that morning etc....

Belamel
January 9th, 2007, 06:08 PM
I loved this ep. I think it had a little bit of everything that makes a good hour of SGA. Loved the character interaction, humor, and the movement of the story. It had great pacing, between the action and the dialog. It was a great team episode and I really enjoyed how everyone had something going on. Very happy. :zelenka25:

kiji_onubis
January 9th, 2007, 06:10 PM
ello, im new to this but not new to stargate, im from the uk and i have been trying to follow all the new episode of stargate atlantis and sg1, i have yet to find stargate atlantis s03 the ark. help anyone???

Alipeeps
January 9th, 2007, 06:12 PM
ello, im new to this but not new to stargate, im from the uk and i have been trying to follow all the new episode of stargate atlantis and sg1, i have yet to find stargate atlantis s03 the ark. help anyone???

Before you go any further with this line of questioning, let me just give you a friendly heads-up that discussion of illegal downloading or filesharing or hosting online etc etc etc is not allowed on GW. Any posts mentioning such subjects will be deleted by the mods...

Detox
January 9th, 2007, 06:20 PM
so it's that bad eh?? i shall not go with you lot till i see the episode and ive liked every episode of SG-1 n Atlantis to date. :P

Don't mind them. They're the ones who complain about every episode of Stargate Atlantis.

Overall, this episode wasn't that bad. I enjoyed it.

jerkface
January 9th, 2007, 06:27 PM
I really liked this one.

What surprised me most was how un-filler-y it really was. Though ostensibly the main plot/action was about an alien people we've never seen before (and probably won't again), in the end it seemed to really be about the team and especially (excitement!) Teyla.

As Teyla points out in the final scene, Jamus' actions seem like how John behaves most of the time, though this time we (the audience) are seeing it from the outside.

Her speech to Jamus about preserving the memory of his people also felt like a nice insight into her perspective as an Athosian too. This episode also reminded me of S1's Poisoning the Well (in a good way), as it brought back the theme of Pegasus Galaxy civilizations so desperate to escape the wraith they will make moral decisions more difficult than those previously encountered by our MW guys.

Herick's reaction to losing his family also felt like a dark mirror of what John could do if really faced with having lost his Atlantis family. It did make Sheppard's final decision to try and save Teyla even more believable (though he's always unnervingly ready to sacrifice himself).

And overall, I really loved the setting. The atmosphere of the barely habitable station...all the darkness and lack of air. It felt a lot like the opening of Knights of the Old Republic 2, on the Peragus mining station... (though this is probably just me :p).

If I had to list my nitpicky things against this (and I will ;)), I'd say that yeah, the explanation of why John survived could have been better. I did understand that it didn't go as he planned (especially since the opening repeated the bolt failure part), but the moon collapse-push thing wasn't totally clear to me until I read about it here.

There were also a couple of moments when line readings seemed to go against the general tone: Ronon's smile as John left in the shuttle seemed out of place, even for someone as sanguine about death as R. has a right to be. Weir's line about Jamus' death also didn't feel strong enough. I know she didn't experience what the others did, but a beat there could have helped it seem less abrupt.

But otherwise...this was really what I've been looking for in SGA this season, a nice balance to the lighter, Echoes type episodes.

Lizabeth
January 9th, 2007, 06:39 PM
Overall I thought The Ark was a good episode. I could have done without the intro. Starting at the eight hours earlier would have confused me less. Loved the Rodney John interaction, and Rodney's doom comments in general. And "should have used a mac!" Ha! Awesome! Would have liked to see more Elizabeth, but loved John's faith in her and rescue missions. Would have liked to see Elizabeth's reaction fleshed out more to Johns hero complex. She's got to be frustrated with him constantly risking his life. But then, I wouldn't have him any other way, I don't think she would either. Love the good ol' family vibe in the team. Would have liked to see more of Ronon's concern for Teyla, between this and Echoes it didn't seem balanced well. But overall, good episode.

Lorr
January 9th, 2007, 07:00 PM
I haven't seen the Ark yet, but I am such a hussy for spoilers, I came in here for a looksee. I must admit that I kind of wish that I had not read Ken's responses just to see if I picked up on the points myself. But, knowing the "backstory" will help me understand what's going on. I'm looking forward to it! Thank you, Ken, for coming here to discuss things! Much appreciated, and no matter what you say, you are a brave, crazy man.

Biscuit
January 9th, 2007, 07:33 PM
Aw, c'mon people. How can you call an episode with that many explosions "boring"?

Me, I got a huge kick out of The Ark. It was fun! Hollowed-out moon? Explosive decompression? Perilous peril? McKay and Sheppard squabbling awesomely? Teyla actually getting some screen time? With a heaping side helping of insight into the way 10,000 years of life as a Wraith snack bar can warp a society?

What's not to like?

* McKay! Pinata! The entire Pegasus Galaxy is a big ol' pinata for McKay to crack open. A pinata stuffed with nutbar aliens and stuff that blows up as soon as you take a whack at it, but still. Good times!

* Hollowed-out moon! Mad love! I've been wishing for more episodes set in space! They've got the cool flying ships, it's a crime against sci-fi not to let them hang out in outer space at least once per season.

* Sheppard really can fly anything! Even a ship anchored to a space station stuffed inside a moon! (The aeronautical equivalent of turducken!) Me, I LIKED the fiery Ground-Control-To-Major-Tom death spiral into the atmosphere. One of those should be mandatory per season too.

* Teyla! I was so damn happy to hear a Pegasus native actually getting a chance to talk about how they endure the unendurable. You remember the people you've lost. You tell their story to everyone you meet. You carry on and you carry them with you. I love little flashes of insight like that. It was a lovely moment.

* Dex! Grarrgh, with the manly shoulder relocation! I love Dex more each episode. But I don't care if he'd dislocated both shoulders and both hips, he could still pound Sheppard to death with his forehead. Not that he would. For this season is all about the team love.

* Suicide Sammy! In fact, an entire planet of Suicide Sammies. I will never, ever get sick of story lines that feature Pegasus planets and their cunning plans to outwit the Wraith . Even though said plans never, ever seem to work out for them. (I'm looking at you, Hoff!)

Whee! What a ride! Can't wait to see what's coming next week!

Lizabeth
January 9th, 2007, 07:48 PM
The bottom line is that Weir is in charge of Atlantis. She has to maintain the day to day operations. She can't just go off on field missions because she has other responsibilities...much like General Landry on SG:1.

Having said that...Weir does indeed go on a rare field mission in Submersion - and quickly learns that perhaps it is better to stay in the warm cozy confines of Atlantis.

yay! Weir on a mission! Hopefully this "learning" you speak of is something she later forgets. I totally understand she is the leader and can't go on missions often, but I'd like a few every season where she comes, for some reason or another. She could use her diplomatic skills sometime for trade or something. That said, I also love the episodes where the action is on Atlantis. Much more than I ever enjoyed the SGC based episodes. So throw in lots of those too!

neoncrazy101
January 9th, 2007, 09:26 PM
i thought this was a very good filler episode. it showed a different side of people and kinda what we would of been like if the wraith were around in the 60s on earth. but man i love the comment that McKay saids about the computer freezing up "should of used a mac" haha i just start to crack up laughing at that one.

Sweetsong
January 9th, 2007, 09:27 PM
Ok, sorry my bad.

lord-anubis
January 9th, 2007, 10:12 PM
i dident think the eps was boreing but it was nothing great a cool ep but forget able. love that sceen when ronon poped his shoulder back in it was a bit freaky.

love that sceen at the end shepp telling tyla don't go feeling speial i would have done it for any one expet maybe makay lol

andrewag
January 9th, 2007, 10:40 PM
This episode wasn't too bad.

I especially loved the mac comment :D

Lorr
January 9th, 2007, 10:43 PM
I, being the spoiler junkie I am, read all the spoilers, opinions, etc. here and elsewhere. It's an incurable dysfunction of mine (and I will keep it, thank you). I don't find it difficult to put aside all said spoilers and opinions and watch an episode with expectations set to neutral. Well, except for the expectations that Sheppard will be drop dead gorgeous, which he always is.

I enjoyed the Ark. A lot. The team moments were lovely. More Teyla and Ronon, yea! I especially liked that Teyla got to show some of her philosphy and belief system. I love Sheppard making decisions at lightening speed and not second guessing himself. And, the expression on his face when Ronon relocates (?) his shoulder is priceless!

To me, The Ark was a good piece of television science fiction. A lot was actually packed into the scant 43 minutes we see on screen. There were a couple of holes, to be sure. The one that bugged me at all was the lack of a visible safety harness in the shuttle. Or, did I just not see it? Anything else I can ignore by way of suspension of disbelief. (My brain loves to play tricks on itself, it's a game.) Also, this is TV, not Citizen Kane.

This will be one I will watch often, as is much of S3!

Jeyla4ever
January 9th, 2007, 10:58 PM
I liked this episode a lot...not only was it good to see a different set and lay out but it was also an interesting idea with a nice twist to it. I loved the beginning because it was something different that I don't think SGA has done up till now...that was great....For me, the episode kept me on the edge of my seat waiting to see how it all turned out....yes the ending is predictable but it's how they get there that made the episode interesting for me...

The character moments were great...again...a lot of Rodney that could have been substituted for more Ronon and Teyla scenes....but it was compensated with some great lines for all the characters and Rodney as always with his great moments...

and yet, for me, the two characters that really stood out was John and Teyla...John clearly showed that he is the best military leader for Atlantis..who else would have the capability to do what he did, and most importantly...who else would have been willing to do it.

John wasn't keen to help out and risk his life for these people, and yet, in the end, the leader only did and ask what John did for his own and although I know that John would never risk the lives of others at the expense of one or a few, he still risked his own to save one....that was a nice little twist there or somehow a connection between John and Jamus.

I really enjoyed Teyla's role in here as well...we got to see Jamus side of this through her eyes....we got to see and feel for Jamus eventhough his actions were questionable...and her speech to him...Magnificent! and Rachel was truly amazing...

Lorne with Rodney...I really like the bantering between those two as well. John being the leader and keeping his team under control, i.e. quieting Rodney and calming Ronon..excellent...

But I think one of my favorite scenes was when John realized that he made it! His expression and his own awareness clearly shown through the wonderful action of Joe Flannigan was the cue for me to realize that John didn't plan on making it through this one....and when he told Lorne to take his time, to me that showed how John just needed that time on his own to once again deal with the idea that he almost died on this one too when only hours before he had told Ronon that he didn't want to die....and all to save Teyla...wow!

In the end, it was nice to see Weir relaxed and sitting on Teyla's bedside. It shows that these two have had more than one conversation together...for me any ways...

And lastly...the scene between John and Teyla in the infirmary was truly sweet and oh so cute... to see Teyla still able to speak in favor of Jamus's action was truly sensitive from the writers point of view to show us another side of the story... that was touching.......

beautifully done...

Michelle05
January 9th, 2007, 11:11 PM
Only 1 night and already 7 pages? Those bits have been flowing out of Canada, eh? I very much enjoyed this ep. I wasn't bored for a second; I don't get that at all!

I think the show was greatly enhanced by excellent, moody sets and incredible visual effects, inside the hangar, during the descent, etc. I can't think of another Stargate ep that had this many effects, and they were very kewl.

Herrick was very sympathetic. Jamus or whatever was well done. I didn't see that coming, him putting Teyla inside.

I enjoyed the story and the character interactions, but I wish Rodney and John would do something besides bicker all the time. Didn't Rodney's near ascension soften them both a bit? It was great for the first 3/4 but then when John was going to go off and die, I wanted a bit more sincerity of friendship shown. Maybe it's a guy thing :)

Teyla got some nice time to shine and I loved Ronon's insight that the young guy was going to cause problems.

Yay Carson! But he didn't have that much to do, poor guy. :(

I can see how the shuttle might have survived in the pocket, but it would have been nice for Rodney to say something... The whole resolution was sort of a leap of faith anyway.

Kudos to the set and effects people especially :)

GatetheWay
January 9th, 2007, 11:21 PM
Blow torches don't work in a place that isn't suppose to have oxygen so I don't see how Lorne was able to repair the door. And did anyone else spot the Snickers wrapper? I mean talk about sloppy production and post production work. It was so bloody obvious you'd think they could have caught it and painted it out or something.

I did get Lifeboat flashbacks but not too baddly. The people's stratagy to get rid of the Wrath was actually quite brilliant even though it was so destructive, desperate, and homocidal. After that old guy explained I really felt for him wanting to save his people.

I wish the young guy who initially commited suicide could have been explored more maybe have him do the deed later so we could get to know him and his mindset better. I still don't get why he wanted to take everyone else with him when he could have just killed himself without much fuss.

I think it was a good episode though it dragged in places and I was happy to see Lorne again.

Snickers, bottled water, and clean wipes anyone?
http://img84.imageshack.us/img84/8514/snickersbf5.jpg

Sicktem
January 9th, 2007, 11:21 PM
Meh, sorta half good, but overall bad. It felt very disjointed, it didn't flow, we're thrown into this place, how'd we find it? We just are suddenly exploring random space station on rock,

They randomly go to worlds with Stargates on the orbitting them to see what they can find (who knows when you could discover the next Ancient Outpost filled with ZPMs at random). This is something we know and I don't see why they have to set it up every single episode. It was quite obvious to me that when they flew through the gate their sensors detected the hollowed out moon and they went in investigate. When they saw that it was of little interest on the surface they wanted to leave and would have if it were not for Rodney's curious nature.


power it on, people go crazy, omg we're going to fire the engines...wait, the engines are pointed at what? the space station? that makes no sense.

The engines were facing the outter door which shut off the inside of the moon from the outside. What was blown off was that and some damage was done to the compartments nearby. It's completely rational for them to come in from the door and park with the engines facing where they came from. However, they obviously weren't designed to be turned to max inside the place which is what was done.



It gets all mucked up and we lose a jumper for no good reason, why'd we have to lose the jumper?

I don't think we actually lost a jumper. That was my first reaction to seeing it get engulfed by the engine's firepower. However, we later saw it floating in away from the moon while seemingly undamaged. From that view I don't see why they couldn't have later recovered it offscreen.



And uhm MORAL ISSUE...why did nobody seem to care that they killed all their own people with nukes?!?!?! They nuked the damn planet, knowing damn well that only the people on the shuttle would have survived and nobody else. That's horrible...stand together and fight, don't just go homocidal on everyone!

They seemed to take notice of it to me (you see their heads turn and their expressions change when they're told that and they even replied in a way that made it seem they didn't believe it). However, they were obviously too busy dealing with the situation at hand to stop devote all their time to that event. Although I can see your reasoning that it would've been nice to see them react in a Daniel type way to the situation, I think it would've been out of place even for him to devote time to it in this particular situation.

Also on a personal level I don't see it that much worse than picking the best and the brightest of your people to send to another world when a hostile Alien force is on it's way to destroy most of your population (something Earth was prepared to do). The only difference was that these people didn't have a dhd and their Stargate was in space so they had to come up with a plan B. It's a horrible thing to do, don't get me wrong, but so too is living every day knowing that you are cattle that is waiting to be fed on. I can certainly see why someone in that situation would want a better life for their descendants even if it means sacrificing themselves, but the unfortunate point is that they made that decision without everyone's consent. Anyway, moral issues aside at least they have a world now where the Wraith won't think to check out. I can see this being revisited in the future as the Atlantis team encounters people who need to be relocated to a safe location.

RDAOWNS
January 9th, 2007, 11:24 PM
I'll address this one, since it makes a good point:

Yes, it was lucky...this is a situation where all the piloting skill in the world would have been useless. If we had Sheppard do the impossible, and skillfully bring the shuttle down, I would have felt that was a cheat. Too super-hero. Sheppard was human here, surviving only because of dumb luck. And all because he refused to let Teyla go without a fight.

Anayway, this is how I saw it...and tried to write it...

Ken C

Some have already mentioned that they felt a little 'cheated' with the ending expressing how they didn't like how they were forced to believe that it was blind luck. This is perfectly understandable and here is how I believe why.

There exists almost a tacit contract between writer and audience in endings such as this in tv series (Atlantis, SG-1...) and film franchises (James Bond). When we watch a climactic scene like the ending of this episode in a different setting (one-off film or real-life experience) the reason for watching exists in an answer to the question of whether the characters will survive. However when we already know the answer, like in a franchise, the 'payoff' for this lack of emotional tension is an ingenious/harrowing escape. The focus shifts from 'Will they/won't they?' to 'How do they?'. This is why many of us watch Bond. We all know he will survive. That doesn't interest us. What does interest us is how. Each time the writers have to come up with something new.

Whilst I agree that the idea to have John survive through blind luck is original and good for character development, it can leave that slightly hollow feeling.

Maybe, the narrative, interesting and insightful though it is, just doesn't lend itself that well to an television episode which climaxes in a frenzy of action? Just throwin' it out there.

LoveConquers
January 9th, 2007, 11:42 PM
I think I just saw another little error, LOL! Around 6:18, John is wearing some kind of wired ear piece that looks mysteriously like my cell phone headset and suddenly next shot of him around 6:30, he's magically wearing the normal ear piece they all wear. Unless that was on purpose and he switched them out for whatever reason...looks like another little goof! :)

Sorry, just a little something I noticed just now when rewatching. :)

And can someone tell me what that white cord that seems to run from the groin to the mid-chest area on the space suits is supposed to be? (I know nothing about space suits, but it just looks a bit awkward). :)


ETA: Oops, never mind. I see the wired ear piece is back once he's in the space suit again. Must be a part of the suit!

Michelle05
January 9th, 2007, 11:43 PM
I forgot to mention how much I loved Rodney's Mac line! Go, David! Very apropos with today's Apply announcements. Maybe next year the team will start using iPhones.

Oh, and I saw the Snickers wrapper too. I thought maybe it was a sign Rodney and John had been inside the shuttle checking it out, which helps explain how John knew how to fly it later. If it was a mistake, wow, it was in a bunch of takes!

Oh, and the sounds effects were awesome too, as was the music.

Atlantean Engineer
January 10th, 2007, 12:02 AM
Blow torches don't work in a place that isn't suppose to have oxygen so I don't see how Lorne was able to repair the door. And did anyone else spot the Snickers wrapper? I mean talk about sloppy production and post production work. It was so bloody obvious you'd think they could have caught it and painted it out or something.



Normal blow torches don't work without oxygen, but there are some modified ones that are used underwater and there are theoretically ways to do it in space. Those carry its own oxygen supply, or more likely uses two hypergolic chemicals to create the fire. It's almost certainly more dangerous than a normal blowtorch, but sometimes you gotta do what you gotta do.

However, there are two big issues that stick out in my head as being so blatantly wrong. When the guy commits suicide and the air rushes out of the moon-ship, why does Ronin and Shep have so much trouble closing the hatch? Air should be rushing out of the compartment, not in, that's why the hatches opened to the inside. So, when you lose pressure, the door will automatically swing shut. The only possible explanation is that the compartment was a path for air going out of the station, but that just means the second door would have shut itself due to the pressure, and Ronin and John would've had more air left.

In addition to the obvious miraculous landing, it also seemed miraculous that somehow, the moon-ship had enough oxygen to fill the entire cavern. Air doesn't come out of nowhere. If they had pressurized tanks of air, then that might explain it, but those would have to be extremely pressurized tanks to hold enough air to fill that cavern at normal pressures. I was kindof surprised when I saw the guy standing and looking out into the cavern with no air-lock or anything. I had assumed the cavern was still vacuum.

Just too many scientific brain-farts in this one for me. It was an OK filler episode plot-wise and acting-wise, but just wasn't a good sci-fi episode to me because it wasn't believable. I can only suspend my disbelie for so many moments in one episode. A miracle (like Shep's landing) each episode is fine with me, but when you have more than two important implausible events, it gets kinda bad IMO.

And the Mac comment. Yeah it fit, but Macs crash too. I would've expected McKay to know that, then again he's Canadian, so maybe I'm expecting too much. :mckay:

Atlantean Engineer
January 10th, 2007, 12:05 AM
And can someone tell me what that white cord that seems to run from the groin to the mid-chest area on the space suits is supposed to be? (I know nothing about space suits, but it just looks a bit awkward). :)

It doesn't look like a cord to me. More like strap, it kinda hangs on a pulley near the chest area. It does look a little weird, but it's probably something to secure yourself when you're seated. The only other connections in the torso area of their suits are lower and look like hoses/pipes, probably for transferring fluids in and out.

LoveConquers
January 10th, 2007, 12:23 AM
It doesn't look like a cord to me. More like strap, it kinda hangs on a pulley near the chest area. It does look a little weird, but it's probably something to secure yourself when you're seated. The only other connections in the torso area of their suits are lower and look like hoses/pipes, probably for transferring fluids in and out.


Strap, that's the word I was looking for, thank you! It seems to be attached to a wider black strap that comes from under the legs and goes up around the backside of the suit. Anyway, thanks for the possible explanations! Just a curious and random question. :)

atlantis_babe34
January 10th, 2007, 01:01 AM
Overall i found the episode rather borning.. but thats just me.. oh and BTw nice Snickers wrapper by the crew!.. Top Job Guys!

gatinha
January 10th, 2007, 01:04 AM
Yeah, I understand this, and as I said it was just a gripe I had with this episode. I know the reasons for her absence, just imagine having to put up with many *many* episodes without much Sheppard in a season (which is what you have to put up with if you're a fan of either Weir or Teyla) it gets tiring.


have you seen the rising with commentary by Martin Wood and Joe Flanigan? Maybe from there you'll get the idea that there's a reason why it has to be sheppard not the other characters....at first he was nobody to the stargate program...but he became somebody very important because actually he's the lead character (Martin Wood did say that too)....for me personally it would be very strange a show without the lead character in it....just imagine macgyver without macgyver in it...:o :o

Linzi
January 10th, 2007, 01:12 AM
have you seen the rising with commentary by Martin Wood and Joe Flanigan? Maybe from there you'll get the idea that there's a reason why it has to be sheppard not the other characters....at first he was nobody to the stargate program...but he became somebody very important because actually he's the lead character (Martin Wood did say that too)....for me personally it would be very strange a show without the lead character in it....just imagine macgyver without macgyver in it...:o :o
Good point.
I do have sympathy though for any fan who's favourite character doesn't appear as much as they'd like. It's happened to me in ther shows, and it's disappointing. I'm glad that, for once, my favourite character is the lead!!!! :)

lostinspace
January 10th, 2007, 01:12 AM
I just watched The Ark, and shared this reaction on LJ as well. First, this was classic SF and Stargate. The plot was somewhat predictable, the gravitas wasn't fully there, but the overall chemistry was great, with bonus scenes for Teyla and Lorne! Also, we now have many new allies whose sophistication and knowledge far exceeds any of the previous ones. So all in, not the best ep ever, but certainly not Irresponsible!

ken_is_here, thanks for taking the time to visit various threads (your eps and even the Shep Whump one, you brave man!). I particularly appreciate your explanations of the original script (which had more "realistic" whump and scenes), the shuttle design idea and Shep's reactions, which were completely in line with canon and his fascination with Doug Flutie's Hail Mary pass. Nice hints about Submersion too - looking forward to it!

FYI - for folks who're late coming into the thread, you can view all of Ken's insights and spoilers here (http://forum.gateworld.net/search.php?searchid=609801), with the major ones compiled below.

Well, this last minute edit patch actually appeared in writing in the very first draft. I wanted to open the show with a little bit of Vertigo -- jump right into the action, then start to reveal the layers that led to that moment. If you felt it was cheap, that's cool...but it was scripted not patched in during editing.


The bottom line is that Weir is in charge of Atlantis. She has to maintain the day to day operations. She can't just go off on field missions because she has other responsibilities...much like General Landry on SG:1.

Having said that...Weir does indeed go on a rare field mission in Submersion - and quickly learns that perhaps it is better to stay in the warm cozy confines of Atlantis.


I wouldn't say he's uncomfortable with emotion, just that like a lot of guys, it is easier to brush things off with a joke, then to speak from the heart. What we feel and what we say are often two different things. Something to remember ladies. It's like we guys are from, say...mars...and women are from some completely different planet. For example: Venus. Hey, I should write a book.


Well I figure a large metal container would have a better chance at surviving a crash than a soft pink fleshy dude.

The only way to get free of the station (it was thought) was for Sheppard to release the shuttle from the mooring manually (from the cockpit) and hope that it "fell" threw the damaged outer doors rather than bouncing off the inner walls and shattering (there was no anti-grav at that point). This was a 100-1 shot. Sheppard was going for the long odds. And failed - because he couldn't release the shuttle as planned. Oops.

What he didn't plan on was the fact that once the moon hit the atmosphere, it burned up quickly, allowing the contents (the shuttle) to fly free of the wreckage. From there, all he had to do was try to keep the shuttle level upon landing to minimize the impact. Which he did.

Also...you are blond.


Keep in mind this was a shuttle, not a plane. A shuttle designed to slow down when it hits the atmosphere, and glide to Earth on air streams (as set up by Sheppards comment that it had a "lifting body" design similar to old Nasa shuttles.) This is what it was designed to do. It wouldn't be a very effective re-entry shuttle if it slammed to earth like a crashing plane.

Ken


The alternative would have been spending the rest of his life wondering if he could have saved Teyla had he tried. Sheppard never gives up on his team. period. Even if it kills him.


I'll address this one, since it makes a good point:

In my head (and, I feel, in my script as well) it was intended that this situation the team was in was an impossible one. With no fuel in the shuttle, it was absolutely impossible to save the civilization in the wraith device without, at the very least sacrificing the pilot of the shuttle -- and even then it was very unlikely the device would survive the impact. It was that simple. One member of this new race doomed the rest of his people, and we couldn't do a damn thing about it.

And then Teyla was forced into the device -- and Sheppard made a decision. He couldn't let Teyla die without at least trying to save her. But in making this decision, Sheppard assumed he would die in the attempt. It was a suicide mission from the start. He simply hoped that he would somehow be able to get the shuttle, (and the device) clear of the station before he died. The shuttle was designed for re-entry - it was a gliding shuttle so once in the atmosphere it would have a chance at surviving the crash landing -- IF Sheppard could somehow miracoulously get it free of the station.

Now here's maybe what wasn't perfectly clear in the aired version (although it was clear to me...because it was in my head all along) -- The fact that the bolts didn't blow, and the shuttle didn't come free from the mooring at first is what saved Sheppard's (and Teyla's) life. Sheppard's plan was to try release the shuttle from the mooring, and hope that gravity carried him free of the moon through the damaged airlock. More likely he would have bounced around inside until the shuttle disintegrated, and killed everyone. This is pretty much what Sheppard expected. (In my original script, I made a little more out of Sheppard saying his goodbyes to the rest of his team. He never expected to live) However...because the bolts didn't blow...Sheppard got lucky. The station hit the atmosphere, and the moon burned up, from the outside in. But the moon wasn't solid, and the hollow pocket inside acted as a buffer. So when the shuttle broke free of its mooring, without slamming into any solid walls of rock -- It simply emerged from the rubble to continue the descent it was designed for.

Yes, it was lucky...this is a situation where all the piloting skill in the world would have been useless. If we had Sheppard do the impossible, and skillfully bring the shuttle down, I would have felt that was a cheat. Too super-hero. Sheppard was human here, surviving only because of dumb luck. And all because he refused to let Teyla go without a fight.

Anayway, this is how I saw it...and tried to write it...

Ken C


Well the truth is I don't really go seeking out fan opinions...I just drop by websites I enjoy and poke around. If I see something that perftains to me or my work, I'll often respond...simply because I enjoy the interaction. (I was a fan long before I was a writer)

So...whether my episodes are percieved as successes or failures is really besides the point (hindsight is 20/20 - It's not like I can go back in time and do a better job) and not really in my hands.

I don't really need to "deal" with fandom at all. I pop by here because I enjoy the feedback -- both negative and positive. It's all good!

So this LiveJournal...a little like "Fight Club?"

MasterVampire
January 10th, 2007, 01:18 AM
how good was it when Ronon dislocated his arm and Sheppard is there telling him that becket will be there soon to help him and he gets up and uses the door to pop it back in

the look of terror and shock in sheppards eyes lmao!

Alipeeps
January 10th, 2007, 02:13 AM
I enjoyed the story and the character interactions, but I wish Rodney and John would do something besides bicker all the time. Didn't Rodney's near ascension soften them both a bit? It was great for the first 3/4 but then when John was going to go off and die, I wanted a bit more sincerity of friendship shown. Maybe it's a guy thing :)

Teyla got some nice time to shine and I loved Ronon's insight that the young guy was going to cause problems.



I thought the banter and Rodney's doom and gloom predictions etc were great in this ep - to me, it was just right. Sometimes McKay's snark etc can be a bit too much but it felt like the right level in this ep. He was his usual pessimistic self as to their chances of survival but, at the same time, never stopped working to save them and there was a real note of kinda sadness, almost verging on acceptance? in his voice as he told them how bad their situation was. He didn't seem as, I dunno, angry and stressed as he would normally be in that situation. I adored his mulish, verging on emotional, "No. We don't leave our people behind!" to Lorne when asked to go to the jumper. It was his Sheppard moment - it's a concept Sheppard lives by, to the extent of being willing to endanger his own life, and Sheppard had been repeatedly reminding McKay of that concept and then, when salvation arrives and offers to take over McKay's responsibility in rescueing his team, he refuses, wanting to stay right where he is, at the risk of his own life, because he will not leave them. Wonderful.

I also really enjoyed the scene where Sheppard was going to the shuttle. I thought it was very in character for both of them - it was a definite goodbye scene and I loved the almost hopeless tone in McKay's voice where he asked Sheppard not to do this, knowing full well that Sheppard was of course going to. And I love that Sheppard deflected the moment with a slightly snarky comment.. because that's what these guys do. They have a close friendship but they don't discuss emotions and icky stuff like that... ;) It all goes unsaid and it's what they don't say that is wonderful....

Gotta agree I also loved ROnon's perceptiveness on the situation with Herick and Jamus. A lovely touch.



I wish the young guy who initially commited suicide could have been explored more maybe have him do the deed later so we could get to know him and his mindset better. I still don't get why he wanted to take everyone else with him when he could have just killed himself without much fuss.


I don't think he necessarily wanted to kill the team - he told Teyla to take her friends and leave. What he wanted to do was kill himself, definitely kill Jamus, whom he blamed for the loss of his family, and to destroy his life's work - a life's work he felt had been wasted because he had been betrayed and denied the one thing that had led him to devote his entire life to the project. The team just happened to be in the wrong place at the wrong time.

Alfff
January 10th, 2007, 02:26 AM
anyone notice the snickers wrapper on the control panel?

FallenAngelII
January 10th, 2007, 02:52 AM
Why is Rodney such a moron in this episode? Especially since it came after "Tao".

I'm really sick and tired of people whining about rehashes and whatnot. The only similarity between this and "Lifeboat" is that they both featured people in stasis.

Everything, everything else was different. More on my thoughts later when I've finished watching the episode.

Linzi
January 10th, 2007, 02:52 AM
I thought the banter and Rodney's doom and gloom predictions etc were great in this ep - to me, it was just right. Sometimes McKay's snark etc can be a bit too much but it felt like the right level in this ep. He was his usual pessimistic self as to their chances of survival but, at the same time, never stopped working to save them and there was a real note of kinda sadness, almost verging on acceptance? in his voice as he told them how bad their situation was. He didn't seem as, I dunno, angry and stressed as he would normally be in that situation. I adored his mulish, verging on emotional, "No. We don't leave our people behind!" to Lorne when asked to go to the jumper. It was his Sheppard moment - it's a concept Sheppard lives by, to the extent of being willing to endanger his own life, and Sheppard had been repeatedly reminding McKay of that concept and then, when salvation arrives and offers to take over McKay's responsibility in rescueing his team, he refuses, wanting to stay right where he is, at the risk of his own life, because he will not leave them. Wonderful.

I also really enjoyed the scene where Sheppard was going to the shuttle. I thought it was very in character for both of them - it was a definite goodbye scene and I loved the almost hopeless tone in McKay's voice where he asked Sheppard not to do this, knowing full well that Sheppard was of course going to. And I love that Sheppard deflected the moment with a slightly snarky comment.. because that's what these guys do. They have a close friendship but they don't discuss emotions and icky stuff like that... ;) It all goes unsaid and it's what they don't say that is wonderful....

Gotta agree I also loved ROnon's perceptiveness on the situation with Herick and Jamus. A lovely touch.



I don't think he necessarily wanted to kill the team - he told Teyla to take her friends and leave. What he wanted to do was kill himself, definitely kill Jamus, whom he blamed for the loss of his family, and to destroy his life's work - a life's work he felt had been wasted because he had been betrayed and denied the one thing that had led him to devote his entire life to the project. The team just happened to be in the wrong place at the wrong time.
I agree here. It was wonderful to see Rodney be pessimistic and not whine too much. The balance of Sheppard and McKay's banter and ribbing was perfect here, for me. I also loved that McKay asked Sheppard not to go. Of course, he knew Sheppard would take no notice, but he had to try, and did. I thought that showed a lot of character growth for him, because his plea was so heartfelt, in my eyes. I also chuckled at the way Rodney asked how he could collect on the wager of a weeks pay if Sheppard died, and Sheppard's comment about how nice it was that Rodney cared was hysterical! Yep, I loved this episode!!!! Off to watch it again now...

Linzi
January 10th, 2007, 02:53 AM
Why is Rodney such a moron in this episode? Especially since it came after "Tao".

I'm really sick and tired of people whining about rehashes and whatnot. The only similarity between this and "Lifeboat" is that they both featured people in stasis.
I didn't think Rodney was a moron. Why do you think that?

FallenAngelII
January 10th, 2007, 02:55 AM
Cracking jokes and being sarcastic, overbearing and boasty when talking to a guy who just found out he's lost his family.

BTW, who would build a space shuttle whose windows break upon bumping into stuff?!

caty
January 10th, 2007, 03:00 AM
Why is Rodney such a moron in this episode? Especially since it came after "Tao".

I'm really sick and tired of people whining about rehashes and whatnot. The only similarity between this and "Lifeboat" is that they both featured people in stasis.

Everything, everything else was different. More on my thoughts later when I've finished watching the episode.

OMG, you and me actually agree :lol:

BTW: I don't think Rodney was intentionally being a jackass.. He's just very much like an elephant in the China store when it comes to being sensitive.. He doesn't know what sensitivity is, never did. So his reactions didn't surprise me and weren't intentionally malicious..

FallenAngelII
January 10th, 2007, 03:17 AM
OMG, you and me actually agree :lol:

BTW: I don't think Rodney was intentionally being a jackass.. He's just very much like an elephant in the China store when it comes to being sensitive.. He doesn't know what sensitivity is, never did. So his reactions didn't surprise me and weren't intentionally malicious..
No, he wasn't intentionally malicious. He was just being stupid. Which was weird considering he almost Ascended and should somehow have matured through that.

By the way, I find John's actions hypocritical as well. Fine, they don't leave their own behind, but, heck, entire civilization of a thousand people here about to get lost forever. What does John want to do to try and save them? Nothing. Because they'd have to risk maybe dying.

Then Teyla gets trapped. And then suddenly he's willing to risk his life on what amounts to a suicidal mission to save her. Some hero. One friend's life is obviously infinitely more important than those of 1000 innocent strangers.

Linzi
January 10th, 2007, 03:18 AM
Cracking jokes and being sarcastic, overbearing and boasty when talking to a guy who just found out he's lost his family.

BTW, who would build a space shuttle whose windows break upon bumping into stuff?!
Ok, that was a little insensitive, but that's just how he is. I don't think Rodney's going to change that much because of Tao. We soon forget events that have happened that make us take a harsh look at ourselves, after all. Rodney's always been conceited, it's the price you pay for being a genius, I suppose. I quite enjoy Rodney's arrogance personally, though I wouldn't like it in real life, certainly.

Linzi
January 10th, 2007, 03:23 AM
No, he wasn't intentionally malicious. He was just being stupid. Which was weird considering he almost Ascended and should somehow have matured through that.

By the way, I find John's actions hypocritical as well. Fine, they don't leave their own behind, but, heck, entire civilization of a thousand people here about to get lost forever. What does John want to do to try and save them? Nothing. Because they'd have to risk maybe dying.

Then Teyla gets trapped. And then suddenly he's willing to risk his life on what amounts to a suicidal mission to save her. Some hero. One friend's life is obviously infinitely more important than those of 1000 innocent strangers.
Ah, you see they didn't have enough time to try and save everyone in stasis, as Sheppard said to Jamus (sp?). As Lorne said, they had a short time before the moon would be burned on re-entry, so they needed to leave quickly. Why should Sheppard risk his life for a 1,000 people he doesn't know? That's not his job. His self-sacrificial tendencies only go so far...;) His job was to get everyone on the team out safely and quickly. Of course, once Teyla was in stasis he wouldn't leave a team member behind, so, even if that meant his own death, he'd try everything in his power to save her, just as he would any member of the team.

FallenAngelII
January 10th, 2007, 03:33 AM
Ah, you see they didn't have enough time to try and save everyone in stasis, as Sheppard said to Jamus (sp?). As Lorne said, they had a short time before the moon would be burned on re-entry, so they needed to leave quickly. Why should Sheppard risk his life for a 1,000 people he doesn't know? That's not his job. His self-sacrificial tendencies only go so far...;) His job was to get everyone on the team out safely and quickly. Of course, once Teyla was in stasis he wouldn't leave a team member behind, so, even if that meant his own death, he'd try everything in his power to save her, just as he would any member of the team.
How hard would it have been to at least try to carry the thingie to the ship? That's like asking why American soldiers should save 1000 innocent Iraqi civilians if the area they're in is about to be bombed by terrorists.

Why should 5 American soldiers risk their superior lives to save 1000 innocent civilians, whereof 200 are children?

caty
January 10th, 2007, 03:59 AM
No, he wasn't intentionally malicious. He was just being stupid. Which was weird considering he almost Ascended and should somehow have matured through that.

By the way, I find John's actions hypocritical as well. Fine, they don't leave their own behind, but, heck, entire civilization of a thousand people here about to get lost forever. What does John want to do to try and save them? Nothing. Because they'd have to risk maybe dying.

Then Teyla gets trapped. And then suddenly he's willing to risk his life on what amounts to a suicidal mission to save her. Some hero. One friend's life is obviously infinitely more important than those of 1000 innocent strangers.

Ken already explained why Shep did what he did and what Linzi said makes a lot of sense, too..
It's just not his job to safe everybody...

Another possibility what we haven't thought about is that he just had the idea to take the shuttle when they had no time left. He often gets hit with solutions in the most dire situations. They had time before to maybe think of something. He did say to Jamus that they'd try everything they can. Maybe he was waiting for Rodney to have another brain fart...

Linzi
January 10th, 2007, 03:59 AM
How hard would it have been to at least try to carry the thingie to the ship? That's like asking why American soldiers should save 1000 innocent Iraqi civilians if the area they're in is about to be bombed by terrorists.

Why should 5 American soldiers risk their superior lives to save 1000 innocent civilians, whereof 200 are children?
Well, McKay said there was no way to power tthe stasis device by jumper power, so they couldn't move the stasis unit over to the jumper, which is how they were going to leave. Those of those in stasis would have all perished. However, when Sheppard was pushed to save Teyla he came up with the idea of flying the shuttle, where the unit could be plugged into the power source and those in stasis would survive. Of course, Sheppard was risking his life to do so, and thought everone would die with him. He probably didn't even think of that plan until he was desperate to save Teyla, and why should he carry out a suicide mission for a bunch of people he doesn't know? That isn't any of their jobs.

starfox
January 10th, 2007, 04:13 AM
Anyone else notice this?

http://img230.imageshack.us/img230/8839/snickersgb1.png

How did they miss that? LOL


It's part of the new ad campaign.


Planning combination suicide/genocide? Why wait? Grab a Snickers.

FallenAngelII
January 10th, 2007, 04:31 AM
We're not talking about what's part of their job here. We're talking about what's right. 1000 innocents. Say that out loud, 1000 innocents.

While I'd have qualms about it because I'm no hero, I could see myself possibly risk my life saving them. 1000 innocents, after all.

John's a great hero. He risks his life to save people all the time. Heck, he saved the Athosians back when all he knew was that they had a weird head-bowing ritual and wore animal skin.

And all of a sudden he has no problems leaving 1000 people to die (heck, afterwards, he was still mad at what's-his-name for taking Teyla hostage). It almost seems slightly out of character.

The plan being last minute, I can buy.

Alipeeps
January 10th, 2007, 04:49 AM
Why is Rodney such a moron in this episode? Especially since it came after "Tao".


I didn't see Rodney being a moron really in this ep and I did think he had mellowed a bit, particularly in his interactions with the team, since Tao. Yes, he's still insensitive and doesn't necessarily think about other people's perceptions before speaking out because, hey, even a life-changing, near-death experience is not going to completely alter a person's personality. But he was definitely less arrogant, less over-bearing, especially when explaining what their situation was and what they needed to do to survive etc.


I agree here. It was wonderful to see Rodney be pessimistic and not whine too much. The balance of Sheppard and McKay's banter and ribbing was perfect here, for me. I also loved that McKay asked Sheppard not to go. Of course, he knew Sheppard would take no notice, but he had to try, and did. I thought that showed a lot of character growth for him, because his plea was so heartfelt, in my eyes. I also chuckled at the way Rodney asked how he could collect on the wager of a weeks pay if Sheppard died, and Sheppard's comment about how nice it was that Rodney cared was hysterical! Yep, I loved this episode!!!! Off to watch it again now...

Oh definitely - his plea to Sheppard was both heartfelt and despairing.. because he knew Sheppard would still go, no matter what. And his concern as they tracked Sheppard in the jumper was vivid and touching.



BTW, who would build a space shuttle whose windows break upon bumping into stuff?!

That wasn't the shuttle - it was the control room of the space station. A space station built inside an enclosed, pressurised environment within a hollowed-out moon. I doubt they ever envisioned a situation where there would be heavy pieces of sharp debris floating around in a vacuum inside the enclosed environment. Plus, that's why the entire station was separated periodically by air-tight hatches... in case there should ever be a failure anywhere.



By the way, I find John's actions hypocritical as well. Fine, they don't leave their own behind, but, heck, entire civilization of a thousand people here about to get lost forever. What does John want to do to try and save them? Nothing. Because they'd have to risk maybe dying.

Then Teyla gets trapped. And then suddenly he's willing to risk his life on what amounts to a suicidal mission to save her. Some hero. One friend's life is obviously infinitely more important than those of 1000 innocent strangers.


How hard would it have been to at least try to carry the thingie to the ship? That's like asking why American soldiers should save 1000 innocent Iraqi civilians if the area they're in is about to be bombed by terrorists.

Why should 5 American soldiers risk their superior lives to save 1000 innocent civilians, whereof 200 are children?


We're not talking about what's part of their job here. We're talking about what's right. 1000 innocents. Say that out loud, 1000 innocents.

While I'd have qualms about it because I'm no hero, I could see myself possibly risk my life saving them. 1000 innocents, after all.

John's a great hero. He risks his life to save people all the time. Heck, he saved the Athosians back when all he knew was that they had a weird head-bowing ritual and wore animal skin.

And all of a sudden he has no problems leaving 1000 people to die (heck, afterwards, he was still mad at what's-his-name for taking Teyla hostage). It almost seems slightly out of character.

The plan being last minute, I can buy.

The difference here is that what Sheppard did was essentially a suicide mission. Whilst they would have saved the stored people if they could, to try and do so would have put his entire team at risk - there was no way to fly the shuttle, they couldn't stay on the station and couldn't power the device in the jumper. To try and guide a shuttle (with no power and hence very little directional control) through a descent into the atmosphere and crash land on a planet was a crazy thing to try, it was more than likely to end up getting him killed - but it was a desperate choice in an attempt to save a friend.

With all the good intentions in the world, Sheppard simply doesn't have that same emotional imperative to take an insane chance which probably wouldn't work anyway, in the faint hope of saving people he has never met before. The fact of it is that if the team had not found the space station, those people would be effectively gone forever anyway... trapped endlessly in the device until eventually their patterns degraded. It's very easy to sit back objectively and say that in that situation you would give up your life for the greater good, so that a greater number of people might live, but I wonder how you would react if actually faced with that choice?

MechaThor
January 10th, 2007, 05:07 AM
Why is Rodney such a moron in this episode? Especially since it came after "Tao".

I'm really sick and tired of people whining about rehashes and whatnot. The only similarity between this and "Lifeboat" is that they both featured people in stasis.

Everything, everything else was different. More on my thoughts later when I've finished watching the episode.

I argree i just watched this episode and it was much better than i first thought it migth be. I mean it may have been a last of a cizaliation in stasis but when was the last time Stargtae had a moon base crashing down onto the planet below with cool retro style rocket ships? This was a very cool ep.
The only three things i would of lived was..
1. Aliens not moire English speaking Humans. I mean we are like the Rats of the universe.
2.Them sapce suits did not look very warm would they have not freezed in the vacumed areas where air was being vented into space?
3. Rodney is a MAC fan. EEERRR

Agent_Dark
January 10th, 2007, 05:07 AM
Hmm, this episode got a big fat 'meh' from me... They really need to start making episodes that aren't based so heavily on the Sheppard/McKay back and forth. I'm all for character interactions, but when it seems almost a cover up for a semi-dodgy plot then it's kinda bad... Some random dude kills himself as he trys to destroy the station - um yay? But hey, Sheppard and McKay are making funnies so its ok!
And there wasn't really any attempt to make us identify with the civilisation of the week. So they're trapped inside a device. We can't see them. Some dude has killed himself. Some other dude is holding Teyla hostage (why she didn't just jump him... surely she could have exploited an opportunity, considering how much the station was jumping around :S).
Then Sheppard seemingly miraculously escapes certain death. And no offence to Ken, but if it takes an explanation from the writer in a forum after the show has aired, then the episode failed to get across to the viewer what actually happened. It's probably not even a writing fault either, just how it turned out in the end. I have a similiar problem with BSG, when Ron Moore tends to 'explain' what things meant in the podcasts. Though at least BSG tends to leave things deliberately ambiguous and it's up to the viewer to decide what it means.

Ah anyway, I just hope Sunday will be decent.

starfox
January 10th, 2007, 05:12 AM
Wow...whining and complaints. I haven't been here in a while, I'd forgotten what a cheery environment GateWorld can be.

As a stand-alone episode, I thought that this was fantastic. It had just the right balance of action and character moments. As it fits into the greater season-arc...oh, wait. This season doesn't have one.

Okay, catty comments done, I swear.


Team Stuff

This was a really great episode for seeing how they trust and worry about each other. McKay was seriously worried when Sheppard took that shuttle, and I honestly think that if Sheppard hadn't found a way to save the day, McKay would have come up with something (my first thought when I realized the shuttle had no chance of working was that McKay would find a way to use the beaming technology to dematerialized the shuttle & the storage device, and rematerialize them on the mainland when he had the power and time to figure it out). My only problem with the team in this episode is the same problem I've had throughout the series - can we please put Rodney and Teyla in the same room for more than a few minutes? With the exception of "Tao of Rodney", which was necessary relationship repairs to save his life, I think "Siege III" was the last time we saw Rodney and Teyla work together towards something. I understand why Teyla needed to be alone with Jamus (McKay's reaction to certain death would have taken too much focus away from Teyla's speech), but c'mon. There is such a great opportunity with those two. A really, really interesting relationship could be built there, if people would just take the chance at making it.

Also, I'm a huge McKay fan, but I'm glad that this was a McKay-light episode. We need a break, lest there be backlash.

Sheppard: People have commented on how his suicide run with Teyla was a dumb move. Yeah, and? This is Sheppard we're talking about; he puts no value on his own life when held against the life of one of his team members. It's not exactly a trait we want the military commander to have, but it's been established that it's a huge part of who he is; it would be shoddy writing if they were to abandon that now.
And the new uniform (which looks a lot closer to the military uniforms I've seen than any of the previous incarnations have) works well. I approve. In fact, I approve so much that I'll ignore the crack it made in my suspension-of-disbelief goggles when he used the blowtorch with no face mask and I could see sparks very near his face.

Ronon: The dislike of small spaces (I hesitate to call it outright claustrophobia) revelation was interesting, and the fixing of the dislocated shoulder is something I expect of him. I also like how he was the first person to notice that Herick was probably doing something dodgy. Ronon has experienced losing his family; he saw where the guy was coming from, even if he didn't say it outright.

Hell, I saw where the guy was coming from. I wouldn't have tried to take out my entire civilization, but I can definitely understand his suicide.

Teyla: Getting a chance to do what she does best. I commented after "Tao of Rodney" that it seems like sometimes the writers forget that Teyla's there. She definitely wasn't forgotten in this episode. I would have preferred if Ronon and McKay had been in the infirmary checking on her in the last scene, but hey, we can't have everything. At least she had wonderful and sweet interaction with Beckett.

McKay: The look on his face and the tone of voice when he told Sheppard "Well, technically I didn't actually take that bet" are my favorite parts of this episode. The relief he's feeling is palpable. I disagree with whoever stated that he was being a moron and/or a jerk with his actions towards Herick in the beginning. It takes a minute to switch your brain from cheery-mode to dealing-with-other-people's-problems mode. We saw him all giddy with the rush of discovery (something which made me quite happy), and he was still in science-for-the-sake-of-the-joy-it-brings mode when he was dealing with Herick. He wasn't looking at this guy as a person, he was looking at this guy as part of the really nifty space station he just discovered. I'm not saying it's right, I'm just saying that he was happy in a kind of way I don't think we've seen since "Hide and Seek", and took a lot to penetrate that bubble.


We got Beckett and Lorne in this episode, which made me happy to no end. Long live Lorne!!! Beckett, while I was extremely happy to see him, caused me a bit more confusion. Shouldn't we be bringing someone besides the CMO for rescue missions?



The ethics of not being willing to go all out to save the civilization:
It's one of those things that shouldn't have been possible from a scientific standpoint; it's dumb luck that Sheppard managed it in the first place. They were perfectly willing; they just didn't see a way to do it, and weren't willing to risky their own lives to try, which is perfectly understandable. And while McKay didn't seem to be giving it his usual focus and attention, I can see why he didn't. Until you rematerialize them, those people are abstract. You're not talking about saving lives, you're talking about saving a box. And it's easier not to care about a box. It's easier not to process what's inside it. It's one of the things that makes wars today so much simpler and so much more dangerous than in the past; it's easy to push a button and kill 1,000 people you've never seen and never will have to. It's easier than going out and putting a knife into one. It's like the old saying goes; 1 person is a tragedy, 1,000 is a statistic.


The logic of the ending:
I got it. Okay, so I had my suspension-of-disbelief-goggles on at first (seriously, a must for watching t.v. these days), but I got it even after I took those off. And I know next to nothing about shuttles, aerodynamics, or any of the things previous posters have said would be useful in understanding the end of this episode.




All in all, I thought this was a solid episode. Well-written, well-acted, well-directed, just well done all around. Ken, if you're still around, thanks.

Callie
January 10th, 2007, 05:12 AM
Transcript is up in case anyone's interested:

http://www.brundle.free-online.co.uk/Transcript_Index.html

jerkface
January 10th, 2007, 05:19 AM
We're not talking about what's part of their job here. We're talking about what's right. 1000 innocents. Say that out loud, 1000 innocents.


Well, maybe I'm just contrary, but I think if Sheppard had risked flying the shuttle only for chance of saving the container of 1000 people, he would have had to have been either idiotically naive or impossibly arrogant.

As Linzi pointed out, there was no chance of bringing the container on the jumper. So it was always a choice between a suicide mission and leaving the container behind. Without Teyla in jeopardy, I'm not even sure McKay, Lorne, etc. would have let Sheppard attempt it (at least they would have ignored the chain of command to argue with him more).

As it was, I think you could even argue that Sheppard's opting to rescue Teyla was not particularly heroic. Was it putting his life in danger to save others? Sure. Was it a demonstration of his devotion to his team? Absolutely. But it was also a very self-focused action.

It seems like he couldn't live without his Atlantis-family...so he doesn't value his life alone very highly. That's not the same thing as being a selfless hero for everybody everywhere. That's refusing to live under any but your own terms (in this case, with certain people, or not at all).

[Though if I really wanted to play devil's advocate, I'd say most of the 1000 were likely not innocent at all. Even if we give the 200 children a write off, how much did the adults know about their government's plan to nuke the rest of the planet? Sure, some were just poets, and other civilians, but even granting them total ignorance of the plot, they must have known the two original shuttles couldn't hold even their own country's complete population. So they were all willing to let those people die in war. How innocent is that?]

starfox
January 10th, 2007, 05:22 AM
Amen. Remember, at the end of the ep Elizabeth told him he needed to have his head examined. She lets him get away with this because he pulls it off, but that doesn't make it a good move.

Callie
January 10th, 2007, 05:26 AM
A scripting error, or a mistake by Hewlett? As Jamus is explaining to Herick what happened to the second shuttle, Rodney wanders in saying, “Another life sign just appeared on the shuttle’s HUD.” The shuttle’s HUD?! I think he means the Jumper.

When the shuttle is pulled away from its mooring and sucked out into space, its rear hatch is closed. Usually the team leaves it open in case of the need for a quick getaway.

Where did Rodney get his spacesuit helmet from? When he came into the Pattern Storage Room earlier, he didn’t have his helmet with him and at that point it seems that he came straight from the Jumper where we’d last seen the helmet on the control panel. I know that he has a remarkable sense of self-preservation but not even Rodney would be so prescient that he would then go back to the Jumper to collect his helmet before going to the base’s Control Room.

Obviously all the budget went on building the moonbase, which is probably why they could only afford to send three people – one of which was a doctor and one a pilot who never left the Jumper! – as a rescue team.

Poor Lorne – he does all the hard work getting the final hatch sealed so that John and Ronon can get out of their compartment and when they arrive, they completely ignore him!

Lorne’s voice changes very noticeably in tone towards the end of the episode. Maybe he had to loop part of the episode and forgot what he normally sounds like?

At the end, Elizabeth refers to “Jamus’ people” – because apparently in the time it took them to extract a thousand people and check them all over in the Infirmary, nobody ever bothered to ask them what their race is called!

langdonboom
January 10th, 2007, 05:39 AM
Didn't anybody else want to see 1000 people come out of that thing at the end? It seemed like an obvious budget-issue that we miss the pay-off to Shep's heroic actions, not just saving Teyla, but also an entire civilization!

The fact that we didn't see it was a bit of a let-down for me.

But at the risk of being seen as whining -- I did enjoy the relationship moments, there were some good solid beats between Shep and Teyla, and especially Shep and Ronan. So this was not by any means the worst episode of Atlantis, and to adapt what the bumper stickers used to say, "a sub-par episode of Atlantis is still better than a good day at work."

prion
January 10th, 2007, 06:12 AM
No, he wasn't intentionally malicious. He was just being stupid. Which was weird considering he almost Ascended and should somehow have matured through that.

By the way, I find John's actions hypocritical as well. Fine, they don't leave their own behind, but, heck, entire civilization of a thousand people here about to get lost forever. What does John want to do to try and save them? Nothing. Because they'd have to risk maybe dying.

Then Teyla gets trapped. And then suddenly he's willing to risk his life on what amounts to a suicidal mission to save her. Some hero. One friend's life is obviously infinitely more important than those of 1000 innocent strangers.

No, it's a human reaction. 1,000 people have been bottled up in that thing for hundreds of years. Who knows if you even can salvage them? They're, well, data. Not corporeal at that point. Sheppard doesn't know them. He does know Teyla. He will risk his life for Teyla. He will risk his life for his people, and heck, he's risked his life for others ("Inferno" is one example). That makes Shep as imperfect as the rest of us.

It's been shown that Shep isn't averse to suicide missions ("Siege") and my feeling is that he'd rather risk and lose his life for a teammate than stand by and let someone die. I figure he's got enough guilt with Afghanistan, Sumner, etc. that he doesn't want any more.

Overall, the episode was good, not great, but it passed by quickly.


I can't help but wonder how many jumpers are left now.
Ronon dealing with his own injury was good, as was Shep's response "That's disturbing." And yes, you can er, put your own shoulder back into place if you know what you're doing.
Liked that Teyla got something to do
Rodney was Rodney - my favorite part was the glass cracking and he's going "I'm going to die" or words to that effect.
Lorne coming to the rescue, ditto with Beckett but he had little to do but wait outside the door.


that's all I can remember at this point. Like I said, not a great episode but it wasn't bad either. It was entertaining. I could see why whathisface killed himself. For him, the whole launch had been yesterday so he was still, basically, running on adrenaline from fleeing the planet and then to discover that the lead guy sacrificed his family. Well....pretty bad. Pretty horrid that the civilization basically offed their entire planet/population to get rid of the wraith, but then it's not like we earth folk haven't sacrificed towns/cities in times of war either.

Alipeeps
January 10th, 2007, 06:26 AM
Rodney was Rodney - my favorite part was the glass cracking and he's going "I'm going to die" or words to that effect.


I loved that! The debris hits the glass and he smiles in relief and says, disbelievingly, "I'm alive!" and then the glass starts to crack and his his expression changes to one of horror and he says, "Oh, I'm dead!" :lol:

leelakin
January 10th, 2007, 06:27 AM
The bottom line is that Weir is in charge of Atlantis. She has to maintain the day to day operations. She can't just go off on field missions because she has other responsibilities...much like General Landry on SG:1.

Having said that...Weir does indeed go on a rare field mission in Submersion - and quickly learns that perhaps it is better to stay in the warm cozy confines of Atlantis.
Eeek, ouch.

Elizabeth Weir is (so very very) NOT like General Landry. I see her as an integral part of the team and I know I'm not the only one. With "team", I don't mean the offworld team consisting of John, Rodney, Ronon and Teyla, but yeah, she is part of the inner circle of the "family".

Of course she's in charge of Atlantis and she can't go along with them on all of their missions or anything. Yet there are SO many ways to use her more. She's a negotiator, a linguist, someone with a vast knowledge, especially about Ancients (exploration of Atlantis, anyone?). I see that you couldn't really add her a lot more in this and that's perfectly fine (every now and then), but saying "quickly learns that perhaps it is better to stay in the warm cozy confines of Atlantis."
...say that again and listen to yourself saying it. *lol*
I mean seriously, it sounds like she wasn't capable of handling those situation that might occur, like the only way she can function is to be "cozy" on Atlantis? Ouch. :(

Phew sorry, I had to get that off my heart.

Alipeeps
January 10th, 2007, 06:34 AM
Eeek, ouch.

Elizabeth Weir is (so very very) NOT like General Landry. I see her as an integral part of the team and I know I'm not the only one. With "team", I don't mean the offworld team consisting of John, Rodney, Ronon and Teyla, but yeah, she is part of the inner circle of the "family".

Of course she's in charge of Atlantis and she can't go along with them on all of their missions or anything. Yet there are SO many ways to use her more. She's a negotiator, a linguist, someone with a vast knowledge, especially about Ancients (exploration of Atlantis, anyone?). I see that you couldn't really add her a lot more in this and that's perfectly fine (every now and then), but saying "quickly learns that perhaps it is better to stay in the warm cozy confines of Atlantis."
...say that again and listen to yourself saying it. *lol*
I mean seriously, it sounds like she wasn't capable of handling those situation that might occur, like the only way she can function is to be "cozy" on Atlantis? Ouch. :(

Phew sorry, I had to get that off my heart.

Oh I don't think that's what Ken meant to imply, hon... I certainly didn't read it that way...

prion
January 10th, 2007, 06:38 AM
The bottom line is that Weir is in charge of Atlantis. She has to maintain the day to day operations. She can't just go off on field missions because she has other responsibilities...much like General Landry on SG:1.

Having said that...Weir does indeed go on a rare field mission in Submersion - and quickly learns that perhaps it is better to stay in the warm cozy confines of Atlantis.

Okay, that's whetted my appetite (bad pun)


I wouldn't say he's uncomfortable with emotion, just that like a lot of guys, it is easier to brush things off with a joke, then to speak from the heart. What we feel and what we say are often two different things. Something to remember ladies. It's like we guys are from, say...mars...and women are from some completely different planet. For example: Venus. Hey, I should write a book.

Heh. Yeah. A lot also depends on the situation, on the culture you're raised in (some socities do let men be more demonstrative). McKay's probably the most emotional of all the guys as he just says what he feels, well, for the most part. Shep just isn't good at expressing emotion. Which episode was it where he and Teyla were talking on the Daedalus and she was filling in half the words?




So this LiveJournal...a little like "Fight Club?"

Nah, that's a bit exaggerated ;) LiveJournals (many of us have them) are just online journals - you can what you want without someone going 'you can't say that.' Of course you're responsible for what you say/do. Definitely no censorship as a lot of fanfic is R/NC-17. Many fans use it for posting fanfic, icons, photo manips and of course just plain old chatter and there are episode reviews out there too.

If you want to check out just reviews (as you shouldn't be looking at fanfic ;) - http://community.livejournal.com/sga_newsletter/ - it's ALL links so you can't accidentally click on fanfic. You'll see EPISODE REVIEWS marked. Not a lot on ARK yet as well, depends on who watched it. It's updated once a day.

Linzi
January 10th, 2007, 06:41 AM
Oh I don't think that's what Ken meant to imply, hon... I certainly didn't read it that way...
Me neither. She doesn't look like Landry either ;)!!!! Weir, as leader of the expedition, in the boss who delegates, she's also tied down with miles of paperwork. Practically it would be unusual for somebody as senior as her to go on missions frequently. She surely has loads of meetings with staff planned throughout her days, so she wouldn't have the time to go off world either. Also, the off-world missions can be very dangerous, and I don't think Sheppard want want to risk injury to her. She's also not trained for them. I think the balance is about right, as she goes off world on occasion or if she's really needed.

Iguana775
January 10th, 2007, 06:53 AM
Anyone else notice this?

http://img230.imageshack.us/img230/8839/snickersgb1.png

How did they miss that? LOL

LMFAO. that's funny! I wonder if it was intentional or accidental. maybe ken could shed some light on the snickers wrapper and water bottle. ;)

Atlantean Engineer
January 10th, 2007, 07:07 AM
I can't help but wonder how many jumpers are left now.


They will probably recover the jumper that got blown out of the moon-base during the suicide. I'm sure its still intact and wouldn't be hard to find. You just need another jumper and a few space suits.

FallenAngelII
January 10th, 2007, 07:10 AM
The difference here is that what Sheppard did was essentially a suicide mission. Whilst they would have saved the stored people if they could, to try and do so would have put his entire team at risk - there was no way to fly the shuttle, they couldn't stay on the station and couldn't power the device in the jumper. To try and guide a shuttle (with no power and hence very little directional control) through a descent into the atmosphere and crash land on a planet was a crazy thing to try, it was more than likely to end up getting him killed - but it was a desperate choice in an attempt to save a friend.

With all the good intentions in the world, Sheppard simply doesn't have that same emotional imperative to take an insane chance which probably wouldn't work anyway, in the faint hope of saving people he has never met before. The fact of it is that if the team had not found the space station, those people would be effectively gone forever anyway... trapped endlessly in the device until eventually their patterns degraded. It's very easy to sit back objectively and say that in that situation you would give up your life for the greater good, so that a greater number of people might live, but I wonder how you would react if actually faced with that choice?
But I've just always perceived John as a reckless hero, one who'd risk his life to save anyone. I mean, he did, after all, go on a rescue mission inside of a Hive to save Colonel Sumner (whom he didn't like) and a bunch of people he didn't know (the Athosians) in "Rising".

I believe I said: "While I'd have qualms about it because I'm no hero, I could see myself possibly risk my life saving them. 1000 innocents, after all." I always thought "Possibly" meant "Much less sure than 50%"

Alipeeps
January 10th, 2007, 07:55 AM
Me neither. She doesn't look like Landry either ;)!!!! Weir, as leader of the expedition, in the boss who delegates, she's also tied down with miles of paperwork. Practically it would be unusual for somebody as senior as her to go on missions frequently. She surely has loads of meetings with staff planned throughout her days, so she wouldn't have the time to go off world either. Also, the off-world missions can be very dangerous, and I don't think Sheppard want want to risk injury to her. She's also not trained for them. I think the balance is about right, as she goes off world on occasion or if she's really needed.

Indeed. If we're going to draw a comparison, I see her as much more like Hammond than Landry... She is the leader, the person in command, and her responsibilities pretty much prevent her from going off-world other than on rare circumstances.. but, she is also a lot more than these people's boss, she is a part of the team and is their friend and has a close relationship with them.


But I've just always perceived John as a reckless hero, one who'd risk his life to save anyone. I mean, he did, after all, go on a rescue mission inside of a Hive to save Colonel Sumner (whom he didn't like) and a bunch of people he didn't know (the Athosians) in "Rising".

I believe I said: "While I'd have qualms about it because I'm no hero, I could see myself possibly risk my life saving them. 1000 innocents, after all." I always thought "Possibly" meant "Much less sure than 50%"

But in Rising he didn't have that much idea of what he was getting into (certainly didn't know very much about the Wraith at all and had no expectation of suddenly waking up thousands of them) and it was essentially a military operation - something he is used to, something he is trained for - to infiltrate an enemy base and effect a rescue. Certainly he could not be certain of success but he had no reason to expect almost certain death.

It's one thing to risk your life by doing something dangerous that you hope will succeed.. it's another entirely to do so with the knowledge that you will almost certainly fail.

John is certainly heroic and he can be reckless... but within reason. A she told Ronon, he'd rather not die. He's willing to risk his life if there is a chance of success... and for his friends, he'll go a lot further and risk his life even expecting failure.

FallenAngelII
January 10th, 2007, 08:18 AM
It's like the old saying goes; 1 person is a tragedy, 1,000 is a statistic.
Excellent analogy.


No, it's a human reaction. 1,000 people have been bottled up in that thing for hundreds of years. Who knows if you even can salvage them? They're, well, data. Not corporeal at that point. Sheppard doesn't know them. He does know Teyla. He will risk his life for Teyla. He will risk his life for his people, and heck, he's risked his life for others ("Inferno" is one example). That makes Shep as imperfect as the rest of us.
Oh, right, he risked his life for the people in "Inferno". Almost forgot about them. So why not for these?

Both Herick and Jamus had been in that thing for the same amount of time and they were both alive and well (well, when they were rematerialized) so the "Maybe it's broken"-angle doesn't fit :P.

It's still weird since he was perfectly willing to risk his life for the people in "Rising", "Epiphany" (*shiver*) and "Inferno" but here, when he could save 1000 people, the biggest number so far, he chose not to... until Teyla got captured.

Linzi
January 10th, 2007, 08:35 AM
Excellent analogy.


Oh, right, he risked his life for the people in "Inferno". Almost forgot about them. So why not for these?

Both Herick and Jamus had been in that thing for the same amount of time and they were both alive and well (well, when they were rematerialized) so the "Maybe it's broken"-angle doesn't fit :P.

It's still weird since he was perfectly willing to risk his life for the people in "Rising", "Epiphany" (*shiver*) and "Inferno" but here, when he could save 1000 people, the biggest number so far, he chose not to... until Teyla got captured.
Well, in Rising, Sumner was his CO, and a very important man. I got the impression he went back for him and the other marines taken, rather than for the Athosians. He didn't want to leave his people in the hands of the enemy, he said, and the Athosians certainly weren't his people at that stage as he'd only just met them. He wasn't confident he could get his people back in Rising, but I think he had to try. I also presume he'd ahave wanted to see what the Wraith were like too, what they were up against, so to speak.
I don't think Sheppard would go on a suicide mission for anyone, especially for a group of people in stasis, when the liklihood was that they'd all die anyway. Don't forget, Sheppard thought he'd die along with everyone else. Lorne thought Sheppard was nuts trying to fly the shuttle to try and save Teyla, there was a note of disapproval in Lorne's voice, so I don't think he'd have done the same. I think Sheppard was personally invested here. For a member of his team, he'd willingly sacrifice himself. I personally would risk my life for my family any day. Would I do so as willingly for people I didn't know? No, I wouldn't, especially if I had other responsibilities.

FoolishPleasure
January 10th, 2007, 09:03 AM
I have a problem with the writers sending Sheppard off on suicide missions. Sheppard is the Commanding Officer of the troops stationed in Atlantis and, after Weir, is probably 2nd in Command for the entire city. Going on a suicide mission for one person is unreasonable. Who would be in charge if he died? Lorne? Lt. Cadman? Chuck the Console Guy? No CO would go off on a suicide mission for one person. That person (or Teyla as the case was) would be written off as collateral damage with regrets sent to their family.

On another matter - some have complained about lack of Elizabeth Weir, and Ken replied that she was similar to SG1’s General Landry – sort of a stay-at-home-mom. Sorry dude, these are two different shows. Stargate – SG1 revolves around - SG1. It is a TEAM show. Stargate – Atlantis is about. . .DUH. . .Atlantis! It is not, Stargate – Sheppard’s Team.

Stories on SGA need to revolve around all the Atlantis people, not just Shep, McKay, Ronon, and Teyla. We want exploration of the city itself, we want to see more of the scientists because, face it, this was not a military mission. There is too much focus on “Stargate – Shep’s Team” and not enough play for “Stargate – Atlantis”. That is the #1 problem I have with this show. It has become total Shep overdose. There ARE other characters who are just as interesting, or even more so. I don’t want to hear writers whining about “too many characters to write for”. Guys, if you don’t know how to write competently for a large cast, I suggest you rent Babylon 5, which had a HUGE cast and each character (even recurring) was well developed with backstories, strengths, weaknesses, sorrows, you name it. It CAN be done. It doesn't cost a lot of money - it only takes a lot of imagination. ;)

prion
January 10th, 2007, 09:21 AM
It's still weird since he was perfectly willing to risk his life for the people in "Rising", "Epiphany" (*shiver*) and "Inferno" but here, when he could save 1000 people, the biggest number so far, he chose not to... until Teyla got captured.

Because in all those episodes, they were people. you could see 'em standing there, etc. In ARK, they were... digitized data... whatever. Was there a guarantee they could be re-whatevered back into living people? We didn't know. They couldn't get them back on the jumper - McKay explained (several times) the problem with that. It would only work on that glider/shuttle ship, and there was that nasty time constraint. Moon plummeting into burning orbit.

It was Shep's decision, and it would be interesting if that got brought up later, but he go to the extreme to save his teammates, and Kenneth Welsh (forgot the character's name) figured that out.

prion
January 10th, 2007, 09:25 AM
Stories on SGA need to revolve around all the Atlantis people, not just Shep, McKay, Ronon, and Teyla. We want exploration of the city itself, we want to see more of the scientists because, face it, this was not a military mission. There is too much focus on “Stargate – Shep’s Team” and not enough play for “Stargate – Atlantis”. That is the #1 problem I have with this show. It has become total Shep overdose. There ARE other characters who are just as interesting, or even more so. I don’t want to hear writers whining about “too many characters to write for”. Guys, if you don’t know how to write competently for a large cast, I suggest you rent Babylon 5, which had a HUGE cast and each character (even recurring) was well developed with backstories, strengths, weaknesses, sorrows, you name it. It CAN be done. It doesn't cost a lot of money - it only takes a lot of imagination. ;)

I would beg to differ on it being 'Shep overdose.' He is the lead of the show, but I'd dare say that McKay has had more spotlight. Just like (and don't yell at me) Kirk and Spock were the ones profiled most on "Star Trek."

But that all belongs in a 'what do you want to see in season 4' thread than here as we're here to talk about the Ark. The 'gates, unlike B5 or BSG, are episodic while the latter shows aren't so much...

And there was a Snickers bar on the alien shuttle?? Whoa, didn't see that. Is that a goof, or ack, 'product placement'?

expendable_crewman
January 10th, 2007, 09:31 AM
Aw, c'mon people. How can you call an episode with that many explosions "boring"?

Me, I got a huge kick out of The Ark. It was fun! Hollowed-out moon? Explosive decompression? Perilous peril? McKay and Sheppard squabbling awesomely? Teyla actually getting some screen time? With a heaping side helping of insight into the way 10,000 years of life as a Wraith snack bar can warp a society?

What's not to like?

* McKay! Pinata! The entire Pegasus Galaxy is a big ol' pinata for McKay to crack open. A pinata stuffed with nutbar aliens and stuff that blows up as soon as you take a whack at it, but still. Good times!

* Hollowed-out moon! Mad love! I've been wishing for more episodes set in space! They've got the cool flying ships, it's a crime against sci-fi not to let them hang out in outer space at least once per season.

* Sheppard really can fly anything! Even a ship anchored to a space station stuffed inside a moon! (The aeronautical equivalent of turducken!) Me, I LIKED the fiery Ground-Control-To-Major-Tom death spiral into the atmosphere. One of those should be mandatory per season too.

* Teyla! I was so damn happy to hear a Pegasus native actually getting a chance to talk about how they endure the unendurable. You remember the people you've lost. You tell their story to everyone you meet. You carry on and you carry them with you. I love little flashes of insight like that. It was a lovely moment.

* Dex! Grarrgh, with the manly shoulder relocation! I love Dex more each episode. But I don't care if he'd dislocated both shoulders and both hips, he could still pound Sheppard to death with his forehead. Not that he would. For this season is all about the team love.

* Suicide Sammy! In fact, an entire planet of Suicide Sammies. I will never, ever get sick of story lines that feature Pegasus planets and their cunning plans to outwit the Wraith . Even though said plans never, ever seem to work out for them. (I'm looking at you, Hoff!)

Whee! What a ride! Can't wait to see what's coming next week!Yeah, that's kind of what I saw.

I had a good time watching the ep.

Pegasus planets with populations going off the deep end (by Earth standards, of course) to get off the Wraith menu-- I'm there with you.

With this ep, I liked the flashing backward. I usually do like the "how did we get here" stories.

I missed the "hopelessness" aspect of the final flight from Sheppard's point of view until I saw the expression on Sheppard's face after he landed. (I did pick up that the team had low expectations for his survival.) When Sheppard landed he looked like he had ... well, he looked like he'd expected to die, didn't have much time to think about it before he launched ... and he was too busy during the flight to think about it ... but he had time to think about it after the fact ... I got that vibe quite clearly. Kudos to Joe Flanigan.

Watched the ep twice: For me it was much anticipated and very much enjoyed.

My only regret: with TV (and film), you can only get (and do) so much and I was satisfied. Now after reading the writer Ken C.'s comments, I want the Ark novelization and there isn't one. :-(

FoolishPleasure
January 10th, 2007, 09:49 AM
My only regret: with TV (and film), you can only get (and do) so much and I was satisfied. Now after reading the writer Ken C.'s comments, I want the Ark novelization and there isn't one. :-(

The problem is that 99% of the people who watch SGA aren't going to see Ken's explanations and are going to end up thinking, "WTF just happened?". With previous episodes like "Irresponsible" and "Irresistible", and now "The Ark" needing a writer to explain just what happened, how long are these people going to bother sticking around? In order for this show to survive, the writers really need to step up and make every episode count.

There shouldn't be any need for explanation.

Alipeeps
January 10th, 2007, 10:11 AM
The problem is that 99% of the people who watch SGA aren't going to see Ken's explanations and are going to end up thinking, "WTF just happened?". With previous episodes like "Irresponsible" and "Irresistible", and now "The Ark" needing a writer to explain just what happened, how long are these people going to bother sticking around? In order for this show to survive, the writers really need to step up and make every episode count.

There shouldn't be any need for explanation.

In your opinion, those episodes mentioned "needed" explanations from the writer. In my opinion, they didn't. I enjoyed Ken's insight into the conception of the story and how he wrote and developed certain aspects of the story but I didn't need that information to thoroughly enjoy the episode.

We can't know what the general viewing masses' opinion of the episode is (at least not until there are some official viewing figures/ratings) and I personally suspect that the 99% of viewers who don't go online to discuss the show are probably a lot less likely to go over the plot with such a fine-tooth comb and pick such things apart as we do on here....

expendable_crewman
January 10th, 2007, 10:14 AM
I have a problem with the writers sending Sheppard off on suicide missions. Sheppard is the Commanding Officer of the troops stationed in Atlantis and, after Weir, is probably 2nd in Command for the entire city. Going on a suicide mission for one person is unreasonable. Who would be in charge if he died? Lorne? Lt. Cadman? Chuck the Console Guy? No CO would go off on a suicide mission for one person. That person (or Teyla as the case was) would be written off as collateral damage with regrets sent to their family.Uh ... that's not actually true. About what the senior team leader does? That's not true in the field.

I can't speak for every one in the military, but I can speak for myself and my senior officers taught me that if you're a leader, your job is to do everything you can (and then some) to bring your team home.

If there's a single blessed chance and you leave behind your team member for fear of personal risk, you can do that, you can even get away with it, but you will lose credibility as a leader.

Having a reputation as leader who won't leave a "person" behind is considered high praise.

If it's worth doing, and IMO it is worth doing if there's a chance you can save the person on your team, unless it's outside the leader's skill set, the leader is the one who does it.

That's why I liked the way Pendergast was shown staying on the Prometheus while the ship was evacuated. He's the commander, so he stays until his people are safe. If Pendergast had gone for an evac while one single person was behind him, then he would have been wrong. Not in the legal sense, but in the eyes of those who followed him. For Pendergast, the choice to stay until last cost his life.

Being the boss rather sucks in that respect, if self-preservation is a big motivator.

Sheppard's isn't an original concept. He's just written as being a bit more consistent and vocal about it.

If he was real, I'd work for him.

expendable_crewman
January 10th, 2007, 10:25 AM
The problem is that 99% of the people who watch SGA aren't going to see Ken's explanations and are going to end up thinking, "WTF just happened?". With previous episodes like "Irresponsible" and "Irresistible", and now "The Ark" needing a writer to explain just what happened, how long are these people going to bother sticking around? In order for this show to survive, the writers really need to step up and make every episode count.

There shouldn't be any need for explanation.No, no, you misunderstood. I didn't need an explanation. I did just fine.

After reading Ken's comments, though, I feel there's more to the story than TV can (or will ever) show. That's the nature of television-- that was my point.

Based on Ken's "insider" notes, I'm fairly sure I'd rather enjoy a novelization of the Ark.

majortrip
January 10th, 2007, 10:36 AM
In your opinion, those episodes mentioned "needed" explanations from the writer. In my opinion, they didn't. I enjoyed Ken's insight into the conception of the story and how he wrote and developed certain aspects of the story but I didn't need that information to thoroughly enjoy the episode.

We can't know what the general viewing masses' opinion of the episode is (at least not until there are some official viewing figures/ratings) and I personally suspect that the 99% of viewers who don't go online to discuss the show are probably a lot less likely to go over the plot with such a fine-tooth comb and pick such things apart as we do on here....

I wonder if there are estimates as to what proportion of the viewing audience is even online? I'd agree that the majority of people who watch the show never venture online. Only a fraction of the people in this forum even post in the episode threads, let alone anywhere else here.

I've never felt I had a problem getting the gist of the episode without having input from a writer. Ken's input on the Irrestible thread gave me no real insight aside from what I saw in the episode and in no way helped me suss out what happened on screen. Same here.

As to Sheppard's behavior, I think it was entirely in character for him. He's estalished how far he'd go for his friends at least twice this season. I'd actually expect him to do something like this for McKay now, since Rodney's really the only one left he's NOT done it for so far.

We've also seen this type of behavior on other sci fi/action shows with their hero characters, so I'm not surprised to see it in Sheppard. O'Neill's done it more than once.

Linzi
January 10th, 2007, 10:45 AM
I would beg to differ on it being 'Shep overdose.' He is the lead of the show, but I'd dare say that McKay has had more spotlight. Just like (and don't yell at me) Kirk and Spock were the ones profiled most on "Star Trek."

But that all belongs in a 'what do you want to see in season 4' thread than here as we're here to talk about the Ark. The 'gates, unlike B5 or BSG, are episodic while the latter shows aren't so much...



Agreed. :) Kirk and Spock....hmmm, I see the similarities....but only in certain areas! :lol:

Linzi
January 10th, 2007, 10:46 AM
Uh ... that's not actually true. About what the senior team leader does? That's not true in the field.

I can't speak for every one in the military, but I can speak for myself and my senior officers taught me that if you're a leader, your job is to do everything you can (and then some) to bring your team home.

If there's a single blessed chance and you leave behind your team member for fear of personal risk, you can do that, you can even get away with it, but you will lose credibility as a leader.

Having a reputation as leader who won't leave a "person" behind is considered high praise.

If it's worth doing, and IMO it is worth doing if there's a chance you can save the person on your team, unless it's outside the leader's skill set, the leader is the one who does it.

That's why I liked the way Pendergast was shown staying on the Prometheus while the ship was evacuated. He's the commander, so he stays until his people are safe. If Pendergast had gone for an evac while one single person was behind him, then he would have been wrong. Not in the legal sense, but in the eyes of those who followed him. For Pendergast, the choice to stay until last cost his life.

Being the boss rather sucks in that respect, if self-preservation is a big motivator.

Sheppard's isn't an original concept. He's just written as being a bit more consistent and vocal about it.

If he was real, I'd work for him.
That's really interesting to read. Thank you for your insight! :)

Linzi
January 10th, 2007, 10:48 AM
No, no, you misunderstood. I didn't need an explanation. I did just fine.

After reading Ken's comments, though, I feel there's more to the story than TV can (or will ever) show. That's the nature of television-- that was my point.

Based on Ken's "insider" notes, I'm fairly sure I'd rather enjoy a novelization of the Ark.
I agree. I didn't need the story explained to me, though I found Ken's comments interesting. Then again, I didn't fall asleep during the episode...

Michelle05
January 10th, 2007, 11:04 AM
I thought the banter and Rodney's doom and gloom predictions etc were great in this ep - to me, it was just right. Sometimes McKay's snark etc can be a bit too much but it felt like the right level in this ep. He was his usual pessimistic self as to their chances of survival but, at the same time, never stopped working to save them and there was a real note of kinda sadness, almost verging on acceptance? in his voice as he told them how bad their situation was...

Those are very good points. I think Rodney was definitely less panicky and softer in his tone than before. And I should just give up on the guys openly telling each other how they feel. It would come off too smarmy anyway. I would just like to see Rodney and John arguing the same side sometimes. Although I guess they did in Echoes, when they broke out of the infirmary together. That was so cute!

Cylean
January 10th, 2007, 11:15 AM
This one was boring. Predictable. Boring.

Lol, surviving re-entry with a plastic dome???

obsessed1
January 10th, 2007, 11:20 AM
god I loved this episode to bits, really tense, filmed differently and really exciting!!! and shep looked hot in that new shirt of his!!!!!

funny!

the scene between Shep and teyla at the end was very touching too!!

but what was that snickers bar and water bottle all about?? :D

Alipeeps
January 10th, 2007, 11:24 AM
Those are very good points. I think Rodney was definitely less panicky and softer in his tone than before. And I should just give up on the guys openly telling each other how they feel. It would come off too smarmy anyway. I would just like to see Rodney and John arguing the same side sometimes. Although I guess they did in Echoes, when they broke out of the infirmary together. That was so cute!

I agree, the infirmary breakout was an awesome moment. I loved it SO much! :D

But I think you're right that we will never get any open discussion of all that friendship stuff between the two and, tbh, I wouldn't expect it. It's not in their nature or the nature of their friendship to do that - with them it's all unsaid and that's how they, and particularly Sheppard, like it. I guess it is one of those "guy things", as Ken said. Verbalising emotion? Heck, no! :D

Even in Tao when McKay went out of his way to make peace with and, in a way, say goodbye to everyone... he and Sheppard made do with a "We're good, aren't we?" "Of course!" and that was enough for them.. :)

kirmit
January 10th, 2007, 11:36 AM
I didn't like this episode and don't plan to watch it again. It was just boring imo, I found myself thinking of other things to do whilst watching it and even picked up a book at one point. It also bugged me how they made the lone survivor guy out to be the bad guy, he was trying to save his whole civilisation and the team didn't give a damn so they have him hold teyla hostage and now he's a bad guy. It also bugged me how Sheppard had double standards, one minute there's no time to save them we have to leave now, next second teyla's trapped in the computer and they have all the time in the world to save her. It does answer the question though if sheppard could save 1000 random people or a friend who would he choose or in this case a lot more than 1000 people. IMO the team came out as the bad guys in the end simply because of their selfishness, well that's just what I thought anyway.

Alipeeps
January 10th, 2007, 11:53 AM
I didn't like this episode and don't plan to watch it again. It was just boring imo, I found myself thinking of other things to do whilst watching it and even picked up a book at one point. It also bugged me how they made the lone survivor guy out to be the bad guy, he was trying to save his whole civilisation and the team didn't give a damn so they have him hold teyla hostage and now he's a bad guy. It also bugged me how Sheppard had double standards, one minute there's no time to save them we have to leave now, next second teyla's trapped in the computer and they have all the time in the world to save her. It does answer the question though if sheppard could save 1000 random people or a friend who would he choose or in this case a lot more than 1000 people. IMO the team came out as the bad guys in the end simply because of their selfishness, well that's just what I thought anyway.

Hardly. As previously discussed in this thread, Sheppard made a desperate, reckless attempt to save Teyla's life, knowing he would probably not survive himself and, in fact, probably not be able to save anyone either. But for his friend he was willing to try. For 1,000 people he has never met, who exist only as stored data, whilst he would have liked to have helpled, no he was not willing to face almost certain death. And I can't really blame him. It's no different really to his decision in Letters from Pegasus... as he tells Teyla in that episode.. "Part of [military] training is knowing who you can save and who you can't.

kirmit
January 10th, 2007, 12:08 PM
Hardly. As previously discussed in this thread, Sheppard made a desperate, reckless attempt to save Teyla's life, knowing he would probably not survive himself and, in fact, probably not be able to save anyone either. But for his friend he was willing to try. For 1,000 people he has never met, who exist only as stored data, whilst he would have liked to have helpled, no he was not willing to face almost certain death. And I can't really blame him. It's no different really to his decision in Letters from Pegasus... as he tells Teyla in that episode.. "Part of [military] training is knowing who you can save and who you can't.

No matter how you put it, it is still was still a selfish move, he was willing to leave 1000's of people to die, yet when someone he was emotionally attached to got involved he suddenly cared. You cannot be a hero when you have such double standards, the right thing to do would be save the 1000's of lifes no matter what happened to you and not suddenly change your mind when your friend is involved. Sheppards lack of care for the 1000's of people was the only thing that made me see him as the bad guy in the end, yes he cared somewhat but had teyla not been involved he would've let them all die.

nonniemous
January 10th, 2007, 12:15 PM
(snips excellent review)
We got Beckett and Lorne in this episode, which made me happy to no end. Long live Lorne!!! Beckett, while I was extremely happy to see him, caused me a bit more confusion. Shouldn't we be bringing someone besides the CMO for rescue missions?.

No more than the Military Commander and Chief scientist should be out exploring the galaxy. ST:TNG got this one thing right, the First Officer led the away teams, not the Captain of the ship. But like all the characters have to be unrealistically expert at far too many subjects, you can't be bringing in new characters every week for these various necessary spots. Much as I agree that the CMO isn't necessarily a logical choice for a rescue mission, I'd much rather see Beckett out there than some no-name medic. (Hmmm...maybe that's how we can save Beckett's role in season 4, demote him to field medic!)

I found it quite interesting that we know Beckett has the gene, not sure about Lorne, but they had a "no-name" pilot for the Jumper this time. Flashback to "GUP", I suppose.

Ken, kudos for even braving the Lion's Den here. I thoroughly enjoyed this episode, and I loved that once again we are seeing just how desperate the people of Pegasus are to escape the Wraith. (Though I did notice none of the Atlantis folks bothered to inform Jamus the Wraith were still very much around.) This is the kind of SGA episode I like to see, and it was wonderful to see everyone getting in on the action, even Beckett. Especially it was wonderful to see Teyla given such good scenes; RL was really chewing them up and it was fun to watch!

starfox
January 10th, 2007, 12:26 PM
No matter how you put it, it is still was still a selfish move, he was willing to leave 1000's of people to die, yet when someone he was emotionally attached to got involved he suddenly cared. You cannot be a hero when you have such double standards, the right thing to do would be save the 1000's of lifes no matter what happened to you and not suddenly change your mind when your friend is involved. Sheppards lack of care for the 1000's of people was the only thing that made me see him as the bad guy in the end, yes he cared somewhat but had teyla not been involved he would've let them all die.


I would've, too. As people have previously stated, before rematerialization, those 1000 people are just data. It's very difficult to care as much about an abstract concert as you do about a person who you've worked with and had standing right in front of you.

Also, Sheppard didn't actually think he could save Teyla. It was a suicide mission. He knew it, McKay knew it, Lorne knew it, etc. You could see it in the way they cautioned him against doing it, though they know and love Teyla as well and also don't want to see her die. You can see it in the surprise in his face when he lands and the relief in McKay's. You can hear it in McKay's voice when he makes the joke about not taking the bet. It's in Weir voice when she tells him to have his head examined. It was dumb luck that Sheppard and his precious cargo survived; it had nothing to do with skill. The reason he didn't do it before was because he thought there was no way in hell it was going to work.

Sheppard didn't do it to be a hero. He did it because he wouldn't have been able to live with himself if Teyla had died and he hadn't taken the chance.

It's like Herick said; if they hadn't rematerialized him, he would have died to happy thoughts of his people and his family. Even if he hadn't been able to save the data, the only difference between Sheppard waking them and them waking on their own is that the leader was given the chance to be saved, because I'm guessing that if Herick had woken on his own and discovered the absence of the second shuttle, he would have followed the same suicidal process as he did in the episode, and there wouldn't have been even the memory of the people.

starfox
January 10th, 2007, 12:33 PM
No more than the Military Commander and Chief scientist should be out exploring the galaxy. ST:TNG got this one thing right, the First Officer led the away teams, not the Captain of the ship. But like all the characters have to be unrealistically expert at far too many subjects, you can't be bringing in new characters every week for these various necessary spots. Much as I agree that the CMO isn't necessarily a logical choice for a rescue mission, I'd much rather see Beckett out there than some no-name medic. (Hmmm...maybe that's how we can save Beckett's role in season 4, demote him to field medic!)


You're right, I just have selective suspension of disbelief. It's why I don't like the idea of Elizabeth off-world (c'mon, like the IOA wouldn't have a field day with the new leader if Weir gets killed), but can deal with Sheppard's addiction to suicide missions.

(gives small squee for Carson being awesome and for Teyla using everyone's first name)

BuggyMan
January 10th, 2007, 12:53 PM
I liked the episode.
But I was utterly disappointed that we didn't get to see how the people were actually freed from the device.

Pegasus_SGA
January 10th, 2007, 12:56 PM
I know i'm playing catch up, so I apologies in advance if everyone has answered this points.


I thought the banter and Rodney's doom and gloom predictions etc were great in this ep - to me, it was just right. McKay's responsibility in rescueing his team, he refuses, wanting to stay right where he is, at the risk of his own life, because he will not leave them. Wonderful.

Sorry to cut your post hon. Just wanted to say that I agree with you completely. I think they got McKay's snarkiness and caring side exactly balanced. McKay always reacts to certain death a certain way, but when it comes to being there when the chips are down, he will do everything he can to save them even at the expense of his own life. I know some people are critical of him and his level of....shall we say zeal :) But when push comes to shove he delivers what is expected of him. Each of the team would do exactly the same thing if the position were reversed. And for me it shows that they have all bonded to a point where sometimes emotions overide logic. And this is a big step for McKay given that he uses logic to overide his emotions, lol...quite a turn around i'd say.



I also really enjoyed the scene where Sheppard was going to the shuttle. I thought it was very in character for both of them - it was a definite goodbye scene and I loved the almost hopeless tone in McKay's voice where he asked Sheppard not to do this, knowing full well that Sheppard was of course going to. And I love that Sheppard deflected the moment with a slightly snarky comment.. because that's what these guys do. They have a close friendship but they don't discuss emotions and icky stuff like that... ;) It all goes unsaid and it's what they don't say that is wonderful....


Hehehe, yeah it's definately a man thing *g* and to be honest, words in those sort of situations aren't always necessary, and it was handled exactly right between these two.



Gotta agree I also loved ROnon's perceptiveness on the situation with Herick and Jamus. A lovely touch.


I think, because Ronon has been there, it made that moment even more poignant; because he was speaking from experience. He lost his family in a similar way, and I think he put himself in their respective positions and that's why he said what he did.



I don't think he necessarily wanted to kill the team - he told Teyla to take her friends and leave. What he wanted to do was kill himself, definitely kill Jamus, whom he blamed for the loss of his family, and to destroy his life's work - a life's work he felt had been wasted because he had been betrayed and denied the one thing that had led him to devote his entire life to the project. The team just happened to be in the wrong place at the wrong time.

Well said. Distraught and irrational people do very strange things. He made a choice that he didn't want to live without his family and take with him the man that robbed him of what he thought was going to be a new start for his people. I don't even think that when he made the decision to kill himself that he was thinking of killing himself, those who are on teh path to self destruction rarely think rationally


Why is Rodney such a moron in this episode? Especially since it came after "Tao".

I'm really sick and tired of people whining about rehashes and whatnot. The only similarity between this and "Lifeboat" is that they both featured people in stasis.

Everything, everything else was different. More on my thoughts later when I've finished watching the episode.

I'm going to respond to your moron bit further on. Personally, I thought he reacted as 'Rodney', lol. he was snarky in life and death situations, and there for his friends when they needed him.

I agree, I get annoyed when people compare SGA and SG1.


I also loved that McKay asked Sheppard not to go. Of course, he knew Sheppard would take no notice, but he had to try, and did. I thought that showed a lot of character growth for him, because his plea was so heartfelt, in my eyes. I also chuckled at the way Rodney asked how he could collect on the wager of a weeks pay if Sheppard died, and Sheppard's comment about how nice it was that Rodney cared was hysterical!

Yep, I agree with you here to, I think ToR has made him look into himself a bit more and feel secure enough to say to his friends when he's worried about them. A huge step for him :) ROFL loved the bet on teh wages, he really is going to have nothing if he keeps that up, lol.


Cracking jokes and being sarcastic, overbearing and boasty when talking to a guy who just found out he's lost his family.

BTW, who would build a space shuttle whose windows break upon bumping into stuff?!

Some people just don't know how to react to those situations. Some people laugh at situations like that, some just avoid you, for others they make snarky comments and act sarcastically. It's just a nervous reaction to a strange situation, which Rodney doesn't feel comfortable in. He's only just learning to let his gaurd down with his friends, I think we're asking a bit much for him to do the same with strangers. :lol:


I find John's actions hypocritical as well. Fine, they don't leave their own behind, but, heck, entire civilization of a thousand people here about to get lost forever. What does John want to do to try and save them? Nothing. Because they'd have to risk maybe dying.

Then Teyla gets trapped. And then suddenly he's willing to risk his life on what amounts to a suicidal mission to save her. Some hero. One friend's life is obviously infinitely more important than those of 1000 innocent strangers.

Now there's an ethics question if ever I heard one :) Would you save one member of your family or a hundred strangers... very hard to answer. I have to say, i'm on the fence with this one...so unlike me I know. But Sheppards character is such that he will do anything for his friends, he's already said that to Teyla. Sheppard won't leave someone behind, it's his natural insticts, this is his family and he'd do whatever he could to protect them. Sheppard is a very loyal person, and don't forget he didn't know these people, and had absolutely no obligations to them apart from a moral stand point. Teyla was one of his own.


Ah, you see they didn't have enough time to try and save everyone in stasis, as Sheppard said to Jamus (sp?). As Lorne said, they had a short time before the moon would be burned on re-entry, so they needed to leave quickly. Why should Sheppard risk his life for a 1,000 people he doesn't know? That's not his job. His self-sacrificial tendencies only go so far...;) His job was to get everyone on the team out safely and quickly. Of course, once Teyla was in stasis he wouldn't leave a team member behind, so, even if that meant his own death, he'd try everything in his power to save her, just as he would any member of the team.

Hehehe, yep I agree, he can't possibly be expected to save everyone all the time, but he will do whatever it takes to ensure his team come back after every mission even if that means sacrificing himself in the process. If the roles were reversed, each of them would do the same thing (imo).


How hard would it have been to at least try to carry the thingie to the ship? That's like asking why American soldiers should save 1000 innocent Iraqi civilians if the area they're in is about to be bombed by terrorists.

Why should 5 American soldiers risk their superior lives to save 1000 innocent civilians, whereof 200 are children?

There was no way to power the source. Sure it was possible that McKay could have conceivably worked his magic, but it was a long shot. And the chances of Sheppard actually surviving the landing was equally a long shot, but given the options I think he did the right thing, do or die trying :)


We're not talking about what's part of their job here. We're talking about what's right. 1000 innocents. Say that out loud, 1000 innocents.

Put yourself in his position save a family member or save 1000 strangers, what would you do in that situation, and be honest with yourself. It's one of those mysteries of life, you never know what you would do in that situation until you're in that situation.


While I'd have qualms about it because I'm no hero, I could see myself possibly risk my life saving them. 1000 innocents, after all.

John's a great hero. He risks his life to save people all the time. Heck, he saved the Athosians back when all he knew was that they had a weird head-bowing ritual and wore animal skin.

And all of a sudden he has no problems leaving 1000 people to die (heck, afterwards, he was still mad at what's-his-name for taking Teyla hostage). It almost seems slightly out of character.

The plan being last minute, I can buy.

It's not about being a hero, it's going with your emotions, and emotions aren't always filled with pure logic, as I said above. We've had the luxury to look at the situation from a whole, and assess what we would have done in their position, which took us what.... a few hours say to mull it over, maybe? If you only had a minute to decide, would your answer be any different, particularly if it was a family member?

FoolishPleasure
January 10th, 2007, 12:58 PM
No matter how you put it, it is still was still a selfish move, he was willing to leave 1000's of people to die, yet when someone he was emotionally attached to got involved he suddenly cared. You cannot be a hero when you have such double standards, the right thing to do would be save the 1000's of lifes no matter what happened to you and not suddenly change your mind when your friend is involved. Sheppards lack of care for the 1000's of people was the only thing that made me see him as the bad guy in the end, yes he cared somewhat but had teyla not been involved he would've let them all die.

Exactly. Which is why commanding officers are not allowed to become romantically involved with someone on their team or under their command. It clouds their judgement. If TPTB intend for Shep and Teyla to have a relationship of sorts, then Teyla cannot be on his team. She could serve under Lorne, or Weir, but she would never be allowed to work with "her man". Its completely unethical.

FoolishPleasure
January 10th, 2007, 01:05 PM
In your opinion, those episodes mentioned "needed" explanations from the writer. In my opinion, they didn't. I enjoyed Ken's insight into the conception of the story and how he wrote and developed certain aspects of the story but I didn't need that information to thoroughly enjoy the episode.
It wasn't "my" opinion. Ken is the one who came in here saying he wanted to clarify what happened in the episode because a lot of viewers didn't understand how Sheppard survived. All I (and others) said was that it doesn't look good when the writers have to come out and explain what happened instead of just writing a better script in the first place.

I didn't need explanation for this episode as I just figured the plot hole in the end was the usual cop out by the writing staff.

starfox
January 10th, 2007, 01:07 PM
Exactly. Which is why commanding officers are not allowed to become romantically involved with someone on their team or under their command. It clouds their judgement. If TPTB intend for Shep and Teyla to have a relationship of sorts, then Teyla cannot be on his team. She could serve under Lorne, or Weir, but she would never be allowed to work with "her man". Its completely unethical.

Let me preface this by saying that I am in no way a John/Teyla shipper. In fact, it's one of my least favorite pairings.

That said, this is how TBTB could (and probably would) handwave it away if, heavens forbid, they decided to go that route. With the level of dedication to his team that John has shown, while a romantic relationship between them would definitely make a difference, it wouldn't be a huge one. It's like he and Teyla say in that last scene in the infirmary; he would have done it for anyone on the team. He would have *****ed about it more afterwards had it been, say, Rodney, but he still would have done it. Sheppard has no judgement to begin with when it comes to his team. It proves him to be a less than rational human being, but it makes for good t.v.

SGAFan
January 10th, 2007, 01:18 PM
Excellent analogy.


Oh, right, he risked his life for the people in "Inferno". Almost forgot about them. So why not for these?

Both Herick and Jamus had been in that thing for the same amount of time and they were both alive and well (well, when they were rematerialized) so the "Maybe it's broken"-angle doesn't fit :P.

It's still weird since he was perfectly willing to risk his life for the people in "Rising", "Epiphany" (*shiver*) and "Inferno" but here, when he could save 1000 people, the biggest number so far, he chose not to... until Teyla got captured.


Well, in Inferno, they had no other way out short of the Orion, so they may as well take everyone with them as well? In this ep, they had a means of escape for them, without the module. I see it as sort of a different set of circumstances. Even Shep going back for the "last group" he was looking for Ronon and Teyla as well.

As far as Rising was concerned, whether or not he got along wtih Sumner or Bates or any of them, they were his people... and that does fall into the "not leaving people behind" Would he have done it for just the Athosians? Hmmm... not sure on that (at that point in the series)

SGAFan
January 10th, 2007, 01:21 PM
Uh ... that's not actually true. About what the senior team leader does? That's not true in the field.

I can't speak for every one in the military, but I can speak for myself and my senior officers taught me that if you're a leader, your job is to do everything you can (and then some) to bring your team home.

If there's a single blessed chance and you leave behind your team member for fear of personal risk, you can do that, you can even get away with it, but you will lose credibility as a leader.

Having a reputation as leader who won't leave a "person" behind is considered high praise.

If it's worth doing, and IMO it is worth doing if there's a chance you can save the person on your team, unless it's outside the leader's skill set, the leader is the one who does it.

That's why I liked the way Pendergast was shown staying on the Prometheus while the ship was evacuated. He's the commander, so he stays until his people are safe. If Pendergast had gone for an evac while one single person was behind him, then he would have been wrong. Not in the legal sense, but in the eyes of those who followed him. For Pendergast, the choice to stay until last cost his life.

Being the boss rather sucks in that respect, if self-preservation is a big motivator.

Sheppard's isn't an original concept. He's just written as being a bit more consistent and vocal about it.

If he was real, I'd work for him.

Wow! thank you for that! I love comments from people that have the knowledge and experience.

Great insight! :D

Ruined_puzzle
January 10th, 2007, 01:28 PM
ZZZZZZZ
That was me falling asleep of boredom.
Ummm at least Sheppard was HOT, we can always count on that. :)

Willow'sCat
January 10th, 2007, 02:00 PM
As to Sheppard's behavior, I think it was entirely in character for him. He's estalished how far he'd go for his friends at least twice this season. I'd actually expect him to do something like this for McKay now, since Rodney's really the only one left he's NOT done it for so far.*Taking my slash goggles off* :)

Well there was GUP, neither Zelenka or Sheppard really knew if they were coming back from that one. But all in all I think that Sheppard still doesn't trust McKay so he will never go out of his way to play suicide guy for McKay, he doesn't see McKay the way he sees Teyla or Ronon.


We've also seen this type of behavior on other sci fi/action shows with their hero characters, so I'm not surprised to see it in Sheppard. O'Neill's done it more than once.Well Sheppard IS O'Neill. I see differences in acting and RDA is better with the joke delivery, thankfully TPTB don't give JF too many jokes to deliver anymore but really show for show Sheppard equals O'Neill.

I found O'Neill endearing most of the time, and he had real leadership presence he didn't need to bark orders the way Sheppard does O'Neill had respect but I find Sheppard lacks that, I guess it is because he was never meant to be the leader he is not leadership material, he works with what he has but that is it.

I miss season one Sheppard. He had so much potential but it is just wasted now. :(

Sweetsong
January 10th, 2007, 02:12 PM
I liked the episode.
But I was utterly disappointed that we didn't get to see how the people were actually freed from the device.

I felt the same way, but if I had a choice between a nice set or just seeing a bunch of extras, I'd prefer they cut the extras and build the nice set, heh.

majortrip
January 10th, 2007, 02:19 PM
Well Sheppard IS O'Neill. I see differences in acting and RDA is better with the joke delivery, thankfully TPTB don't give JF too many jokes to deliver anymore but really show for show Sheppard equals O'Neill.

I found O'Neill endearing most of the time, and he had real leadership presence he didn't need to bark orders the way Sheppard does O'Neill had respect but I find Sheppard lacks that, I guess it is because he was never meant to be the leader he is not leadership material, he works with what he has but that is it.

I miss season one Sheppard. He had so much potential but it is just wasted now. :(

I do accept that Shepard is to be our O'Neill, and I'm fine with that. I also think that his recklessness is possibly a reminder that although he's stayed on he wasn't supposed to be the CO. He is a rogue, but then so is Weir (I'm thinking 'Michael', 'Allies', and 'Return 1' here). The entire command structure of Atlantis has had struggles with the IOA and Stargate Command.

And I can where people are coming from about sending the second-in-command to do the footwork unlike Sheppard doing it himself but it's been emphasized that Atlantis is a civilian operation. Sheppard may be the CO of the military there, but he's second fiddle to Weir as far as operations go. She approves their missions. To use TNG as an example, Weir would be Piccard, would she not? I hope made some sense here.:o

Alipeeps
January 10th, 2007, 02:34 PM
No matter how you put it, it is still was still a selfish move, he was willing to leave 1000's of people to die, yet when someone he was emotionally attached to got involved he suddenly cared. You cannot be a hero when you have such double standards, the right thing to do would be save the 1000's of lifes no matter what happened to you and not suddenly change your mind when your friend is involved. Sheppards lack of care for the 1000's of people was the only thing that made me see him as the bad guy in the end, yes he cared somewhat but had teyla not been involved he would've let them all die.

If that is being selfish then pretty much the whole world is selfish. Ask yourself honestly - would YOU accept almost certain death for yourself in exchange for 1,000 people you had never met? Really?


I would've, too. As people have previously stated, before rematerialization, those 1000 people are just data. It's very difficult to care as much about an abstract concert as you do about a person who you've worked with and had standing right in front of you.

Also, Sheppard didn't actually think he could save Teyla. It was a suicide mission. He knew it, McKay knew it, Lorne knew it, etc. You could see it in the way they cautioned him against doing it, though they know and love Teyla as well and also don't want to see her die. You can see it in the surprise in his face when he lands and the relief in McKay's. You can hear it in McKay's voice when he makes the joke about not taking the bet. It's in Weir voice when she tells him to have his head examined. It was dumb luck that Sheppard and his precious cargo survived; it had nothing to do with skill. The reason he didn't do it before was because he thought there was no way in hell it was going to work.

Sheppard didn't do it to be a hero. He did it because he wouldn't have been able to live with himself if Teyla had died and he hadn't taken the chance.

It's like Herick said; if they hadn't rematerialized him, he would have died to happy thoughts of his people and his family. Even if he hadn't been able to save the data, the only difference between Sheppard waking them and them waking on their own is that the leader was given the chance to be saved, because I'm guessing that if Herick had woken on his own and discovered the absence of the second shuttle, he would have followed the same suicidal process as he did in the episode, and there wouldn't have been even the memory of the people.

What she said. In the situation they were in, there was almost no hope of saving those people. The only last-minute desperate option they came up with was for Sheppard to go on a SUICIDE MISSION. Sheppard was not willing to sacrifice himself and why should he? Are you saying we all have a moral obligation to selflessly lay down our lives for the greater good, for the benefit of the majority? What about the natural, in-born instinct for self-preservation? It was a terrible, sad thing that those people could not be saved but it's hardly Sheppard's fault - or his responsibility. If he could reasonably have done anything to save them, he would have. When Teyla was also threatened, the only thing that changed was that Sheppard considered Teyla worth accepting the very real prospect of his own death for. The fact that he didn't find 1,000 strangers who existed only as data (and who, if the team hadn't found them, would have stayed that way for the forseeable future.. perhaps until the reactor burned out and power failed or until the program somehow rebooted and rematerialised Herick.. and the same events would have played out without the team there to help) a compelling enough reason to lay down his life does not make him less a hero.. if anything, it makes him a pragmatist. Not everyone can be saved.


I found it quite interesting that we know Beckett has the gene, not sure about Lorne, but they had a "no-name" pilot for the Jumper this time. Flashback to "GUP", I suppose.

Lorne has the gene. That's why the Genii captured him in Coup d'Etat.



Ken, kudos for even braving the Lion's Den here. I thoroughly enjoyed this episode, and I loved that once again we are seeing just how desperate the people of Pegasus are to escape the Wraith. (Though I did notice none of the Atlantis folks bothered to inform Jamus the Wraith were still very much around.)

I did find myself thinking that someone was going to tell them the Wraith were still around.. but I don't think their plan was ever to restart their civilisation after the Wraith were gone (they had no reason to think the Wraith would ever disappear) but rather that after the planet had been comprehensively wiped of life and unable to bear life for centuries, the Wraith would lose interest in it and never come back.. not expecting there to be any civilisation there to feed on.


Exactly. Which is why commanding officers are not allowed to become romantically involved with someone on their team or under their command. It clouds their judgement. If TPTB intend for Shep and Teyla to have a relationship of sorts, then Teyla cannot be on his team. She could serve under Lorne, or Weir, but she would never be allowed to work with "her man". Its completely unethical.

When did this become about ship? As was made pretty clear in the closing tag, Sheppard would have done the same for any one of his team (and, if his speech in Sateda is to be believed, for Beckett or Weir too). So why does his decision to risk his life to save Teyla mean his judgement was clouded?


It wasn't "my" opinion. Ken is the one who came in here saying he wanted to clarify what happened in the episode because a lot of viewers didn't understand how Sheppard survived. All I (and others) said was that it doesn't look good when the writers have to come out and explain what happened instead of just writing a better script in the first place.

I didn't need explanation for this episode as I just figured the plot hole in the end was the usual cop out by the writing staff.

Your previous post, to which I replied, said:


The problem is that 99% of the people who watch SGA aren't going to see Ken's explanations and are going to end up thinking, "WTF just happened?". With previous episodes like "Irresponsible" and "Irresistible", and now "The Ark" needing a writer to explain just what happened, how long are these people going to bother sticking around? In order for this show to survive, the writers really need to step up and make every episode count.

There shouldn't be any need for explanation.

You made it pretty clear there that you thought (therefore making it your opinion) that most people watching The Ark, Irresponsible or Irresistible would not understand the episodes without further explanation from the writer. Ken didn't post his explanation because he felt the episode needed further explanation to be understood, he was responding to the post of one person who wanted (not necessarily needed) a more detailed explanation of some of the plot points. He didnt "have to come out and explain what happened", he just likes to participate in the discussion on here and I'm glad he does.. I love getting extra insights into how these things work behind the scenes.

kirmit
January 10th, 2007, 02:41 PM
If that is being selfish then pretty much the whole world is selfish. Ask yourself honestly - would YOU accept almost certain death for yourself in exchange for 1,000 people you had never met? Really?

Honestly? Yes I would and have done in the past (not 1000 strangers but 1 stranger I did).

Alipeeps
January 10th, 2007, 02:46 PM
Honestly? Yes I would and have done in the past (not 1000 strangers but 1 stranger I did).

Really? Almost certain death? Like you really did not expect to live other than by pure random chance?

If that is the case then good for you, but I still maintain that something like that is a decision many people would struggle with - and with good reason - and that whilst everyone should try to do their best by their fellow man, no-one is morally obliged to give up their own life for the - very, very slim chance - of saving others. It'd be nice to think that everyone would but we're not all that brave or selfless and self-preservation is a very, very strong instinct.. just about every animal on Earth has it and there's a reason for that.

localfocus
January 10th, 2007, 03:13 PM
TBH I would make the sacrifice as well for strangers without much thought. And Sheppard's a soldier, who like cops or firefighters, basic job description covers this. It's not something they want to do, and avoid if possible, but is something they are all prepared for. If Sheppard was a regular person, it wouldn't be a problem.

However I didn't see his decision hinge on it being a suicide mission, but because he didn't think it would succeed. Sheppard didn't just think that he would die, but that the entire shuttle would be destroyed as well. If he thought they would die anyway, then risking his death, or that of his team would be meaningless. And quite frankly, if Teyla wasn't in danger the rest of the team wouldn't let him try it. It was Sheppard's decision to, in a way go down with the ship, or in this case a team member, that was relevant.

Alipeeps
January 10th, 2007, 03:28 PM
TBH I would make the sacrifice as well for strangers without much thought. And Sheppard's a soldier, who like cops or firefighters, basic job description covers this. It's not something they want to do, and avoid if possible, but is something they are all prepared for. If Sheppard was a regular person, it wouldn't be a problem.

However I didn't see his decision hinge on it being a suicide mission, but because he didn't think it would succeed. Sheppard didn't just think that he would die, but that the entire shuttle would be destroyed as well. If he thought they would die anyway, then risking his death, or that of his team would be meaningless. And quite frankly, if Teyla wasn't in danger the rest of the team wouldn't let him try it. It was Sheppard's decision to, in a way go down with the ship, or in this case a team member, that was relevant.

There is a difference between taking a risk - even a significant risk - of death to save others (something e.g. firefighters and soldiers are trained and expected to do) and pretty much certain death. However, I do agree with you that a large part of the issue here was that it was not only a suicide mission but also had very little chance of success. It was a long shot at best for both shuttle pilot and the stored passengers. Good point.

Trialia
January 10th, 2007, 03:36 PM
Tria + Atlantis + lack of Elizabeth Weir = BOREDOM.

Next episode please...

Rootortoise
January 10th, 2007, 03:52 PM
well i guess im selfish then, cos i wouldnt risk my life for 1000 people (like in the way shep did, by going on what he knew was a suicide mission) but i would if suddenly a member of my family was in trouble *shrugs shoulders*

i dont blame shep for doing what he did in the end...hes not responsible for every single person in the galaxy.
if we're going by this notion then, rodney is at fault also for not coming up with a solution to save the people like he normally would either.


its ridiculous IMO that the team should be blamed for not "caring" enough to save these people, teyla looked absolutely saddened at the thought of those children being in the device and the loss of a civilisation (especially with her own experiences loosing family/friends to the wriath), and she asked rodney if he could save them, and he said no, i agree, he didnt have the time.
what wouldve been the point in him saying "yes ive found a way how to get them out" a few hours later, if they only had a few hours themselves to live anyway before they all died, he wouldve gotten those people out just to die with them in the end.
rodney had his priorities right, trying to save his team, the people who were still alive and had their lives more in danger, than a 1000 people they didnt know who were still stuck in stasis ans would never have even known, just as herick said, if they hadnt got him out of stasis his last thoughts would of been of his alive family and hope that his civilsation would be able to live in peace from the wraith. the fact is that if the team hadnt shown up, those people wouldve died eventually anyway.

sheppard went on a suicide mission to save teyla, his family and he knew he might not survive, but if he never even tried to save her, he would have that on his mind forever..what if he couldve saved her.
i dont hold that against him, id have done the same thing if suddenly my family member was put in harms way.
sheppard would do anything for his team, giving his life for them and this is what he did.
he saved those people in the end, his motivation for saving teyla meant that those people were saved as well so it did work out eventually. Just because he didnt initially go on the mission to save them doesnt make him any less of a bad person. he knew they couldnt be saved initially but teyla going in motivated him to do something, because of who she is.
no one else went on a suicide mission either, so should we blame teyla and ronon and mckay for not coming up to the forefront in the beginning and coming up with a solution either?
sheppard only just came up with the idea at last minute anyway, with teyla as his motivation yes, and so it was a compulsive decision but he managed to pull it off, but only by pure luck in the end.


i still love this episode, i dont try and find fault because i just, as i always do, take the episode at face value and try not to read too much into things like the ethical problems, after all i watch the show for entertainment.
there is enough bad feeling in the world without me having to look at my favourite tv show for it too.

i think that made sense, im tired and rambling a bit but i think i got the jist across.

localfocus
January 10th, 2007, 03:55 PM
There is a difference between taking a risk - even a significant risk - of death to save others (something e.g. firefighters and soldiers are trained and expected to do) and pretty much certain death. However, I do agree with you that a large part of the issue here was that it was not only a suicide mission but also had very little chance of success. It was a long shot at best for both shuttle pilot and the stored passengers. Good point.

Risk isn't just a general thing, in many cases it's about circumstance. You do everything you can to avoid the really bad circumstances, where suicide is the only option available, but even in the the case of certain death, they still make those choices, like stepping in front of a bullet. It's part of their training. They wouldn't want to, but they do. My dad was Navy, I have friends who are cops. So I'm familiar with it. Most people would hesitate I agree, and I would have no problem with that, it's human nature. And I don't have a problem with Sheppard in these circumstances, in this episode because of the risk/reward ratio. But I just know too many people who are prepared to make those sacrifices not to comment on the idea of everybody hesitating.

The Sweet Guy
January 10th, 2007, 04:05 PM
Solid episode. Like most everybody else I had my share of problems with it, but its more of a problem with the show than this particular episode. I very much dislike the cliche writing Ronon keeps getting but it seems like they'll never get that. I mean its alright with me if he has to be the muscles of the show and act tough all the time, I just wish they'd do more interesting things with him once in a while. McKay's freak out over the situation and his arguing with Sheppard is old too. It’s consistent with the character but we see the team in dangerous situations every episode, let's see him evolve a little. But these are my problems with the show and while this episode continues those, it did enough things right for me to like it.

The plot was alright, a bit too slow moving but picked up a little at the end. I didn't grip me as many of the previous episodes did. Shep had a few nice scenes as usual and I really liked that Teyla was given something to do. I'm still waiting on an episode centered on her, like everybody else got.

starfox
January 10th, 2007, 04:05 PM
Risk isn't just a general thing, in many cases it's about circumstance. You do everything you can to avoid the really bad circumstances, where suicide is the only option available, but even in the the case of certain death, they still make those choices, like stepping in front of a bullet. It's part of their training. They wouldn't want to, but they do. My dad was Navy, I have friends who are cops. So I'm familiar with it. Most people would hesitate I agree, and I would have no problem with that, it's human nature. And I don't have a problem with Sheppard in these circumstances, in this episode because of the risk/reward ratio. But I just know too many people who are prepared to make those sacrifices not to comment on the idea of everybody hesitating.


I agree with you, and I think we're all coming from the same place, which is that it would have been different if the issue were Sheppard dying to save the people in the device, but he was in a situation where it was much more likely that the attempt would cause him to die along with the people in the device, which is more about desperation than expectation of actual results.

After all, there's a difference between stepping in front of a gun for a stranger (which a lot of people would probably do) and driving your car off a cliff in hopes of deflecting a boulder on a collision course for the stranger's head. The dilemna in this ep was closer to the latter.

LoveConquers
January 10th, 2007, 04:07 PM
Exactly. Which is why commanding officers are not allowed to become romantically involved with someone on their team or under their command. It clouds their judgement. If TPTB intend for Shep and Teyla to have a relationship of sorts, then Teyla cannot be on his team. She could serve under Lorne, or Weir, but she would never be allowed to work with "her man". Its completely unethical.

One little thing. Teyla is not military. She is not even civilian. She is an alien member of the team and a leader in her own rights. She is not bound by military rules. She respectfully follows Sheppard's commands in the field, but is not bound by earthly or military law. She chooses to follow him in the field; she is not commanded to follow.
Whether you feel it's unethical or not is a separate issue. But strictly speaking from military law, they have no authority over her.

Alipeeps
January 10th, 2007, 04:10 PM
Risk isn't just a general thing, in many cases it's about circumstance. You do everything you can to avoid the really bad circumstances, where suicide is the only option available, but even in the the case of certain death, they still make those choices, like stepping in front of a bullet. It's part of their training. They wouldn't want to, but they do. My dad was Navy, I have friends who are cops. So I'm familiar with it. Most people would hesitate I agree, and I would have no problem with that, it's human nature. And I don't have a problem with Sheppard in these circumstances, in this episode because of the risk/reward ratio. But I just know too many people who are prepared to make those sacrifices not to comment on the idea of everybody hesitating.

I get you on that point. I do. I think - I hope? - I said most or many people would hesitate and not than everyone would?


I agree with you, and I think we're all coming from the same place, which is that it would have been different if the issue were Sheppard dying to save the people in the device, but he was in a situation where it was much more likely that the attempt would cause him to die along with the people in the device, which is more about desperation than expectation of actual results.

After all, there's a difference between stepping in front of a gun for a stranger (which a lot of people would probably do) and driving your car off a cliff in hopes of deflecting a boulder on a collision course for the stranger's head. The dilemna in this ep was closer to the latter.

I like your analogy there - that sums it up well.

LoveConquers
January 10th, 2007, 04:17 PM
Honestly? Yes I would and have done in the past (not 1000 strangers but 1 stranger I did).


Well, judging by the fact you're still here, it wasn't a suicide mission for you then.
Forgive me for sounding sarcastic, I applaud you for saving a life, but we have to remember that they fully believed it was a suicide mission. John fully intended to die. It's one thing to risk your life for someone and another to knowingly die for them.
I can definitely see both sides and would like to think I would give my life for others, in fact, I too have risked my own life a few times to help save someone else. But if I knew in that moment it was certain death would have I still done it? And for souls that were hundreds of years old and that may or may not still be alive? And on a plan that almost certainly guaranteed death for the people you were trying to save anyway? That is not quite so black and white.
For John, he would not sacrifice himself or his team for what was known to be an impossible situation. For Teyla, he was willing to sacrifice his life and went into it with that intention with the faintest of hopes she may live. Everyone else told him not to do it, even after Teyla was sucked in, because they knew it was a suicide mission and they knew the chances of it actually saving anyone was extremely slim. The response from everyone else, even after knowing Teyla was inside, was that it was hopeless and was that it was careless for John to throw his life away as well for nothing. They simply did not believe it was possible.
An ethical question for sure, but also one with many shades of gray.

FallenAngelII
January 10th, 2007, 04:19 PM
Now there's an ethics question if ever I heard one :) Would you save one member of your family or a hundred strangers... very hard to answer. I have to say, i'm on the fence with this one...so unlike me I know. But Sheppards character is such that he will do anything for his friends, he's already said that to Teyla. Sheppard won't leave someone behind, it's his natural insticts, this is his family and he'd do whatever he could to protect them. Sheppard is a very loyal person, and don't forget he didn't know these people, and had absolutely no obligations to them apart from a moral stand point. Teyla was one of his own.

There was no way to power the source. Sure it was possible that McKay could have conceivably worked his magic, but it was a long shot. And the chances of Sheppard actually surviving the landing was equally a long shot, but given the options I think he did the right thing, do or die trying :)

Put yourself in his position save a family member or save 1000 strangers, what would you do in that situation, and be honest with yourself. It's one of those mysteries of life, you never know what you would do in that situation until you're in that situation.

It's not about being a hero, it's going with your emotions, and emotions aren't always filled with pure logic, as I said above. We've had the luxury to look at the situation from a whole, and assess what we would have done in their position, which took us what.... a few hours say to mull it over, maybe? If you only had a minute to decide, would your answer be any different, particularly if it was a family member?
The thing is that it was about Saving 1000 strangers or Saving 1 friend. It was Saving 1000 strangers or Do nothing at all.

It was never about choosing between who to save. It was about choosing whether to risk his lives/the lives of his teammates to save 1000 people.

Once Teyla was trapped as well, it became Save 1000 people and a friend or Do nothing at all.


Well, in Inferno, they had no other way out short of the Orion, so they may as well take everyone with them as well? In this ep, they had a means of escape for them, without the module. I see it as sort of a different set of circumstances. Even Shep going back for the "last group" he was looking for Ronon and Teyla as well.

As far as Rising was concerned, whether or not he got along wtih Sumner or Bates or any of them, they were his people... and that does fall into the "not leaving people behind" Would he have done it for just the Athosians? Hmmm... not sure on that (at that point in the series)
Yes, but in "Rising", he also took the time to free the Athosians as well (something he didn't do in "Underground" for some reason).

localfocus
January 10th, 2007, 04:20 PM
I agree with you, and I think we're all coming from the same place, which is that it would have been different if the issue were Sheppard dying to save the people in the device, but he was in a situation where it was much more likely that the attempt would cause him to die along with the people in the device, which is more about desperation than expectation of actual results.

After all, there's a difference between stepping in front of a gun for a stranger (which a lot of people would probably do) and driving your car off a cliff in hopes of deflecting a boulder on a collision course for the stranger's head. The dilemna in this ep was closer to the latter.

Yes. And I for one never thought badly about Sheppard and the teams actions. It was just that particular line of reasoning that bothered me.

And another thing I noticed is that they were never in a position to make that ethical decision before Teyla was placed into the device. They were just trying to get together first. Sheppard wasn't even part of the conversation between Rodney and Teyla about the possibility of saving those people. Neither of them would have come up with the idea of flying the shuttle to the planet. Rodney could only think up scientific solutions, and there weren't any. Teyla could think of neither scientific or pilot solutions. It's not in her skill set. And the only one who could was Sheppard, and why would they volunteer someone else. Particularly Sheppard. Sheppard might have decided to do it anyway if the choice was offered to him. The timeline didn't allow for it.

Alipeeps
January 10th, 2007, 04:27 PM
The thing is that it was about Saving 1000 strangers or Saving 1 friend. It was Saving 1000 strangers or Do nothing at all.

It was never about choosing between who to save. It was about choosing whether to risk his lives/the lives of his teammates to save 1000 people.

Once Teyla was trapped as well, it became Save 1000 people and a friend or Do nothing at all.



I think the point you're missing here is that the chance of saving anyone at all was extremely slim. Not only did John expect to die by making the choice he did, but he expected that the people in the storage device would also not survive. He what he did because of the miniscule faint hope that maybe the stored people would survive - and thereby Teyla would survive. Choosing effective suicide in the certain knowledge that you are saving 1,000 lives in one thing.. killing yourself on the very slim hope of saving those 1,000 is another.. He only judged it worthwhile because he would do ANYTHING (as he said in Sateda) - go beyond what he would normally do - for his team.

LoveConquers
January 10th, 2007, 04:28 PM
I agree with you, and I think we're all coming from the same place, which is that it would have been different if the issue were Sheppard dying to save the people in the device, but he was in a situation where it was much more likely that the attempt would cause him to die along with the people in the device, which is more about desperation than expectation of actual results.

After all, there's a difference between stepping in front of a gun for a stranger (which a lot of people would probably do) and driving your car off a cliff in hopes of deflecting a boulder on a collision course for the stranger's head. The dilemna in this ep was closer to the latter.

Oh sorry, I just saw your post and you said this much better than I did! Just wanted to say, I fully agree. :)

FallenAngelII
January 10th, 2007, 04:30 PM
I think the point you're missing here is that the chance of saving anyone at all was extremely slim. Not only did John expect to die by making the choice he did, but he expected that the people in the storage device would also not survive. He what he did because of the miniscule faint hope that maybe the stored people would survive - and thereby Teyla would survive. Choosing effective suicide in the certain knowledge that you are saving 1,000 lives in one thing.. killing yourself on the very slim hope of saving those 1,000 is another.. He only judged it worthwhile because he would do ANYTHING (as he said in Sateda) - go beyond what he would normally do - for his team.
I'm not missing it. I see it. After discussing it, I've come to realize that John's a really reckless person when it comes to his people but when it comes to total strangers, he's only slightly reckless (didn't stop him from going up against the Beast time and again, though) :p.

kirmit
January 10th, 2007, 04:45 PM
Well, judging by the fact you're still here, it wasn't a suicide mission for you then.

All I did was push someone out of the way of a car and i did actually get hit myself but I still thought it was the right thing to do even though I ended up hurt and at the speed the car was going and the lack of time I had there was a very good chance I'd be hit worse than i was, infact it was pure luck it wasn't fatal. In a situation like that though when you're faced with it, it just feels like the right thing to do, Sheppard being the kind of guy he's perceived as should've had that same feeling and helped them regardless of the consequences. Numerous times in the past he's put he life on the line for complete strangers so why this time did it take a member of his team being caught up in it for him to act? Heck he puts his life on the line for the whole of earth on a weekly basis, why should this time be any different? I feel it was very out of character for him and selfish compared to his previous actions/ the kind of character he's made out to be.

LoveConquers
January 10th, 2007, 04:58 PM
All I did was push someone out of the way of a car and i did actually get hit myself but I still thought it was the right thing to do even though I ended up hurt and at the speed the car was going and the lack of time I had there was a very good chance I'd be hit worse than i was, infact it was pure luck it wasn't fatal. In a situation like that though when you're faced with it, it just feels like the right thing to do, Sheppard being the kind of guy he's perceived as should've had that same feeling and helped them regardless of the consequences. Numerous times in the past he's put he life on the line for complete strangers so why this time did it take a member of his team being caught up in it for him to act? Heck he puts his life on the line for the whole of earth on a weekly basis, why should this time be any different? I feel it was very out of character for him and selfish compared to his previous actions/ the kind of character he's made out to be.

That is an amazing story of what you did! Thank you for sharing! And thank you for saving someone!

But as discussed in other comments and as I mentioned in the part you did not quote, there were other factors involved this time that made this situation a little different. I completely respect your opinion and do feel the same myself to a certain extent. But given the circumstances they were in, I can understand the belief that it would be worthless and careless to throw your life away for people that seemingly can't be saved. Also remember, John came up with his suicide plan at the last second, as he typically does when being emotionally and physically pushed. This wasn't something they had discussed and decided against prior. I think prior to Teyla being sucked in, they were rather busy dealing with their own lives in danger and were in fact in need of saving themselves.

As a First Responder, I also want to point out that even in rescue, there is a point of no return. A point where you are commanded to turn back becuase the situation has become hopeless and is now outside of your control. Even if they had the time to discuss the situation beyond Rodney's hurried, "that's impossible," as he was busy trying to save them, most likely they would not have chosen the suicide option. In Rescue, you are also trained to put yourself first and to not risk yourself to the point where you can no longer be of help others. I would imagine this situation would have been looked at similarily. It's not so much a split second instictive and reactive situation where no one can simply know for sure how they would react until in that moment. It was more of a controlled rescue situation. Much as firemen risk their lives going into a burning building to rescue others, but also so much as there is a point of no return where they are called back out. A controlled situation is different than a split second reaction. John's decision to do the suicide mission once he himself was out of danger, on the other hand, was such a split second gut reaction.

Rootortoise
January 10th, 2007, 05:02 PM
All I did was push someone out of the way of a car and i did actually get hit myself but I still thought it was the right thing to do even though I ended up hurt and at the speed the car was going and the lack of time I had there was a very good chance I'd be hit worse than i was, infact it was pure luck it wasn't fatal. In a situation like that though when you're faced with it, it just feels like the right thing to do, Sheppard being the kind of guy he's perceived as should've had that same feeling and helped them regardless of the consequences. Numerous times in the past he's put he life on the line for complete strangers so why this time did it take a member of his team being caught up in it for him to act? Heck he puts his life on the line for the whole of earth on a weekly basis, why should this time be any different? I feel it was very out of character for him and selfish compared to his previous actions/ the kind of character he's made out to be.
what so sheppard has an obligation to save every single person in both galaxies and shouldve gone on a suicide mission to save 1000 people he didnt know, and didnt know that they would actually survive the reintergration process in the first place?

sheppard went on the suicide mission in order to save teyla, his team member and family, and he knew there was only a slim chance he could save himself, teyla and the other 1000 people, but it was a do nothing and wonder for the rest of his life whether he couldve saved someone extremely important to him, or die trying. thats the kind of guy he is. like he said in letters from pegasus, you have to know when you cant save people. he knew those people couldnt be saved #(rodney couldnt figure out a way of getting them out in time, especially since they had their own problems waht with teh decaying orbit and everything), they told that guy tehyd do everything they could but like telya said she didnt have the power to make that promise.

i think then if youre going to blame shep for not taking the action imediately to save these people, then everyone else should be blamed, teyla, ronon or rodney didnt offer themselves up to save these people either. especialy rodney who often comes up with some plan to save the day.

shep did eventually save everyone anyway, so he was still the hero in the end, and following his promise that he would save any one of his team, family because they are important to him.

Like you said sheppard generally saves everyone else, but only usually if he knows that he has more than a slim chance of saving them. this time he didnt. he knew he would probably die but he had to try. hed rather die than live without a member of his family.

just because he didnt do this before for the 1000 strangers- even thought he only came up with the solution last minute anyway- does not make him a bad person. he was still very much sheppard to me in this episode.

i still absolutely love this episode, and ken c still rocks!

EDIT: ooh LOVECONQUERS said it better than i did!

EDIT again: you know What you did was GREAT, well done for saving that person, even if it meant injuring yourself! big kudos to you seriously :)!
but then as rodney says in the long goodbye Tv is about "ridiculously attractive people in absurd situations", its not real, so putting real-life situations against this doesnt compare, because you'd never find yourslef in the exact sitution shep and the others were in. and hindsight is a wonderful thing isnt it.

Pegasus_SGA
January 10th, 2007, 05:23 PM
The thing is that it was about Saving 1000 strangers or Saving 1 friend. It was Saving 1000 strangers or Do nothing at all.

It was never about choosing between who to save. It was about choosing whether to risk his lives/the lives of his teammates to save 1000 people.

Once Teyla was trapped as well, it became Save 1000 people and a friend or Do nothing at all.


Yes, but in "Rising", he also took the time to free the Athosians as well (something he didn't do in "Underground" for some people).

You and me always seem to end up debating the finer points of Atlantis ethics, lol. Is this round two ;)

Initially there was no dilemma, ethics or otherwise. But Janus changed all that when he took Teyla hostage because for him it was all or nothing, the same didn't apply to Sheppard. He had a choice and that choice was to save Teyla risking his own life or leave Teyla and get out with the rest of his team. He only choose to save Teyla in the slim chance that she may be alive inside the people pod. The 1000 people were inconsequential to him, he was rescuing one person, Teyla not the 1000. He had no alternative to save the 1000 because as McKay had said earlier, they couldn't distinguish who was who inside the people pod. If it was at all remotely possible he would have had McKay ID Teyla's life signs and pulled her out, but he couldn't. So yes, he was forced into the position of saving all of them in the end, but it was only for one person that he did it. Am I making any sense at all...sorry bad day for debating all round, lol.

In rising, it was different, completely different scenario. In rising a lot of his team had split up so he saved who he could, he could very well have left them to it, but these were flesh and blood people that he'd met, had tea with, got to know, etc. They'd begun to forge a friendship with these people, and once you get to know someone could you idly sit by and watch them being killed or would you intervene? As for the pod people he didn't know them, he'd never interacted with them, but we're asking him to blindly get into a condemned space craft, on a suicide mission, to save 1000 strangers when a member of his team is being held hostage, by the leader of the people who created the problem in the first place?


After discussing it, I've come to realize that John's a really reckless person when it comes to his people but when it comes to total strangers, he's only slightly reckless (didn't stop him from going up against the Beast time and again, though) :p.

Yes he is reckless (on occasions) because he's driven to get his team (all of them) back home and in one piece. But it's not just Sheppard who'd do it, they all would. It was just that in this moment in time it was Sheppard's turn, next time it can be Rodney's or Ronon or Teyla :) Emotions aren't logical, we can't always expect Sheppard or any of the others for that matter to always act rationally when their friends lives are in danger, they're only human, and humans are falliable, they make mistakes now and again. Would you want a team who was perfect? It would get pretty boring very fast, and then you'd have nothing but two dimensional characters. *yawn*

As for the beast thing, he saw someone in trouble (initially) and wanted to help. Because how could you walk by a living breathing person (not a pod person) and not help if they were in trouble? I know people who would/have walked by from a scary situation, because they didn't want to get involved. But Sheppard couldn't stand by and watch someone (not a machine) get hurt. And don't forget he lived with the 'pansy wannabees' to coin the terminology *g* for 6 months, so they then weren't strangers to him.

I really am having an off day today, sorry... I'm probably not making any sense whatsoever.

LoveConquers
January 10th, 2007, 06:01 PM
Would you want a team who was perfect? It would get pretty boring very fast, and then you'd have nothing but two dimensional characters. *yawn*



In fact, we wouldn't even have a team. They'd all be dead. ;)

NowIWillDestroyAbydos
January 10th, 2007, 06:08 PM
Just got done watching the episode. I've got to say, it was better than I thought it was going to be. Awesome visual effects with the moon and the ship at the end of the episode. Lorne's new hair do for the episode was cool. I give it a ***.

PG15
January 10th, 2007, 06:14 PM
That was pretty good. Like The Game, it was filler, and it was neither terrible nor extraordinary, but I did get some nail-bitting and tense moments out of it. A very solid episode.

Ok, the points:

A big THANK YOU to Ken for explaining that shuttle part. I thought it was odd too how Shep just manages to make a shuttlepod land without getting any major injuries. I tried to explaining it with terminal velocity (i.e. Mitch survived, and assuming he was going at terminal velocity in Avalon, Shep would too...but then he would suffer the same injures...so, yeah). But now it makes so much more sense. Still, that scene was pretty intense...although it did remind me of a Star Trek fanfic scene I had written a few months ago. ;)

Speaking of tense, the depressurizing scene, where that guy killed himself, was pretty intense as well; I held onto my seat for that one. :D Joel's great score during that scene definately helped. That little scene with McKay afterwards, with the window breaking, was awesome. David's "I'm so dead" was freaking hilarious. :D

Direction was a little odd this week; what with the shaking of the camera (there was one bit where it was a little excessive), and the Shep "fainting" scenes. I think it adds to the episode though, given how different the setting is.

And now we segue into the setting; that was a GREAT set there; very alien-esque but antique-y as well. I can see why it took so long to build.

However, I gotta say, the team interractions in the episode was what saved it from otherwise mediocrity. From McKay's list of grievances (;)) to the Shep/Ronan interration, was very well done. Teyla's little speech to the white-headed guy was heart-felt, and showed us the caring leader that Teyla should've always been.

If there is one point I didn't like, was the set-up; like some of the others have said, the guy killing itself, and his very quick emotional downwards spiral was kinda empty, but it had to happen to get the plot moving; however, everything after the guy killed himself went very smoothly.

Oh yeah, and the twist; very nicely done, I did not expect that at all. We knew people like the Hoffans existed where desperation drove them to mass murder, but this was beyond even that. We got another layer on how the Wraith have impacted the Pegasus galaxy. Thanks to that twist, I actually cared about the people in the glowly box. ;) :p

Score: 7.5/10

Southern Red
January 10th, 2007, 06:46 PM
Overall I was left unmoved. Not bored, just ...okay. I didn't get any real sense of suspense because, I mean, you know what's always going to happen. And I must say, the suicide!Shep routine is getting a bit much. Now who is left for him to risk sure death for? He and Rodney were taking turns saving each other for awhile. I lost count on that one. And the we-are-family theme is also at the stage where we can shout "Drink!" everytime it's mentioned. Please, for the love of Pete, can we finish the season without any more touchy feely scenes.

For a change I loved Rodney. Usually his carping annoys me, but this time I saw his real sense of impending doom and love for his teammates. I much prefer this to the tortured speeches of forced bonding. Loved Ronon also. You can always depend on him to just be himself, and the look of relief on his face when Sheppard turned out to not even be merely or sincerely dead was a delight. Carson, I love you. 'Nough said. Lorne, son, where have you been? Come back soon. Teyla, seriously, tone it down. You are in danger of bursting a major vessel with these emotional rants. The girl goes from zero to sixty in a nanosecond. John seemed IMHO to be bored himself for the first half. Maybe he's been in this situation so many times it's getting to be old hat. He seemed to perk up when urging Elizabeth to send the rescue and again when Lorne arrived. Then when he realized he hadn't died after all, his face told us more than all the overwrought dialogue of the last 40 odd minutes. Kudos to JF as usual.

I have to add my voice to those who protested the lack of Elizabeth. She is sadly and criminally underused in most episodes. The woman has a list of skills and credentials longer than most of the scientists on the expedition. Yet she is relegated to waving people through the gate and biting her nails until they return. What a waste! And in no way IMHO is she to be compared to General Hammond. Good grief! What a copout by the writers!

Not one I would care to watch again.

Lorr
January 10th, 2007, 07:38 PM
Someone mentioned earlier that Sheppard is not a leader. He is. He leads by example. He was not meant to be a CO, and became one due to Sumner's death, but he does lead. It's unlikely that the SGC would approve his promotion and make him CO of Atlantis if there was a real issue with his abilities. It would have been far more difficult for Elizabeth to push it.

I have been reading the discussion about the 1000 in stasis and saving them. The scenario presented was that Teyla ended up in the box and that Sheppard's decision was prompted by his desire to save her. However, I think there would have been room for him/them to try to save the 1000. The team has tried when it was POSSIBLE. Teyla might have argued for it had she not been in the box. It might have been interesting to play it that way. But, then, we would not have had the lovely moment between Teyla and Sheppard at the end.

This may have been mentioned before, but I will say it anyway. This episode demonstrated one of the major differences between SG1 and Sheppard's team in Atlantis more than any other so far. The Atlantis team has the ability to grow as friends in a way that is not possible with SG1. It seems to be happening, whether by accident or design. Sheppard's team has only 1 military person, Sheppard. The others follow him and accept his orders, but do it completely by choice. and, he has them in his team by choice.

SG1 had the constraints of having 2 military personnel, which set up certain uncrossable boundaries. Those boundaries always meant the friendships could not be fully played out. I am really enjoying the visible growth of the feelings, even if unspoken, the SGA team have for each other. I think this is aided by the fact that they can openly argue and disagree. If this continues, I think it could make for very good drama and comedy. IMHO, of course!

LoveConquers
January 10th, 2007, 07:46 PM
Someone mentioned earlier that Sheppard is not a leader. He is. He leads by example. He was not meant to be a CO, and became one due to Sumner's death, but he does lead. It's unlikely that the SGC would approve his promotion and make him CO of Atlantis if there was a real issue with his abilities. It would have been far more difficult for Elizabeth to push it.

I have been reading the discussion about the 1000 in stasis and saving them. The scenario presented was that Teyla ended up in the box and that Sheppard's decision was prompted by his desire to save her. However, I think there would have been room for him/them to try to save the 1000. The team has tried when it was POSSIBLE. Teyla might have argued for it had she not been in the box. It might have been interesting to play it that way. But, then, we would not have had the lovely moment between Teyla and Sheppard at the end.

This may have been mentioned before, but I will say it anyway. This episode demonstrated one of the major differences between SG1 and Sheppard's team in Atlantis more than any other so far. The Atlantis team has the ability to grow as friends in a way that is not possible with SG1. It seems to be happening, whether by accident or design. Sheppard's team has only 1 military person, Sheppard. The others follow him and accept his orders, but do it completely by choice. and, he has them in his team by choice.

SG1 had the constraints of having 2 military personnel, which set up certain uncrossable boundaries. Those boundaries always meant the friendships could not be fully played out. I am really enjoying the visible growth of the feelings, even if unspoken, the SGA team have for each other. I think this is aided by the fact that they can openly argue and disagree. If this continues, I think it could make for very good drama and comedy. IMHO, of course!


I really like how you said all this! I completely agree with your comments about John and about the uniqueness of his team and why it works and allows for more.
I also think it would have been interesting to see how things would have played out had Teyla not been sucked into the storage container. I love the way this one was written, but there could have been so many fascinating possibilities!

Seldini
January 10th, 2007, 08:41 PM
One thing that's going to get really frustrating about these kinds of episodes now is that we're going to have to start explaining why the Daedalus can't just woosh in and save the day. To my dismay that wasn't explained this time. Since both Earth and Atlantis have ZPMs now, the Daedalus should always be in Pegasus. And with the insane engine speed of 304s, the 'can't get there in time' excuse won't work much unless they're way way out at the edge of Pegasus.

starfox
January 10th, 2007, 08:55 PM
One thing that's going to get really frustrating about these kinds of episodes now is that we're going to have to start explaining why the Daedalus can't just woosh in and save the day. To my dismay that wasn't explained this time. Since both Earth and Atlantis have ZPMs now, the Daedalus should always be in Pegasus. And with the insane engine speed of 304s, the 'can't get there in time' excuse won't work much unless they're way way out at the edge of Pegasus.

Wait...Atlantis doesn't have a ZPM. We drained it, remember? So the Daedalus needs to keep making supply runs.

Also, as for why the Daedalus can't always save the day: after you've done it a couple of times, it makes for pretty boring television. Also, they don't have to pay for another episode in Mitch Pileggi's contract if they save themselves.

Agent_Dark
January 10th, 2007, 09:21 PM
Wait...Atlantis doesn't have a ZPM. We drained it, remember? So the Daedalus needs to keep making supply runs.
No, they ended up with 3 zpm's after The Return pt2. One stayed on Atlantis, one went to Earth and one went to the Odyssey to help in the fight against teh Ori.

starfox
January 10th, 2007, 09:25 PM
No, they ended up with 3 zpm's after The Return pt2. One stayed on Atlantis, one went to Earth and one went to the Odyssey to help in the fight against teh Ori.

Huh. Must've forgotten that part.

LoveConquers
January 10th, 2007, 09:48 PM
Huh. Must've forgotten that part.

It was mentioned in the conversation between Rodney and Elizabeth at the very beginning of a recent ep. Echoes I think?

LoveConquers
January 10th, 2007, 09:52 PM
"Echoes", actually.

Oh, LOL, just edited my post to say that, then saw this one. :) Thanks!

PG15
January 10th, 2007, 10:03 PM
Well, my post is kind of irrelevant now, so I'll go and delete it. :D

Mitchell82
January 10th, 2007, 10:43 PM
I really enjoyed this ep. It was very different but still very good. Teyla got more screen time and did a great job IMO. i thought the story was very well done as was the facility though the cg was a ltittle off it was still very different. If anyone was lacking in morality it was the "frozen" people.(forgot the name) 9/10

parisindy
January 10th, 2007, 11:04 PM
and OMG its official!
best episodes of the season
Sateda, Common Ground and the ARK

OMG OMG

i have no nails left, i loved every second, as much as i love our city i love when they get away from the set, the filming instantly becomes more creative and the show feels refreshed..... i can't say enough

on a scale from one to ten i rate it a FREAKING HELL THAT WAS GREAT!

Jenner8675309
January 10th, 2007, 11:13 PM
I enjoyed it. I am a bigger fan of the ensemble episodes when it comes to SGA, but having Lorne and Carson come in to help save the day was nice. When the eps are centered on "the four" I feel more like I'm watching SG-1. But it was sooo nice to see an ep with out these perils:


replicators and/or nano virus or other alien virus.


The joys of science fiction mean anything can happen.....but I digress. That is for another thread :)

In a nutshell: 7/10.

Lightning Crashes
January 10th, 2007, 11:26 PM
Another "meh" episode. I feel like I'm watching the same damn episode every week. And what the hell is up with the lack of Elizabeth lately? She is an interesting, intelligent, complex character -- one that I find SORELY underused. I dare the writers to have the balls to write more than a couple of episodes a season that heavily incorporates Elizabeth - and her much touted diplomatic/linguistic talents - into the storyline.


LC