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Mitchell82
January 10th, 2007, 10:36 PM
Another "meh" episode. I feel like I'm watching the same damn episode every week. And what the hell is up with the lack of Elizabeth lately? She is an interesting, intelligent, complex character -- one that I find SORELY underused. I dare the writers to have the balls to write more than a couple of episodes a season that heavily incorporates Elizabeth - and her much touted diplomatic/linguistic talents - into the storyline.


LC

well I agree on the lack of Elizabeth. She has become more like Hammond. Still I'm sure we'll see her more.

RoryJ
January 10th, 2007, 10:45 PM
I liked the episode. A good 6 or 7 out of ten from me. However, I have some issues that aren't necessarily attributed to The Ark, but more to the general trend of season three's second half.

First, The Good:

1. I liked the set and the camera work done within it. Martin Wood did a good job of using ever inch of space available to him.

2. As usual, the music quality goes up even another notch. Joel Goldsmith can do very little wrong

3. McKay's "Yippee! Faint hope" was adorable.

4. Rodney is ever slowly learning to play the game. His catching on to Teyla's radio conversation was cute, as was his firm stance to Lorne that he will "leave no one behind". Did y'all head that? He refused to leave! That was quite a step for our little Wodney. I think his character played a great role in this episode, and they didn't even go overboard on the McShep snark, which they often do. A good balance of character interaction for John and Rodney.

5. Lorne, as usual, just enhances every episode he's in. Like SG-1, it's the supporting and recurring characters that add so much more texture and depth to the show's little universe. Therefore, it's time for some new recurring character. We had Heightmeyer and Caldwell back for a moment back in Echoes, along with the ever-wonderful Zelenka. Keep using them and introduce us to more. It makes everything more interesting and more meaningful when something bad happens.

8. I love that Beckett opened up with, "Teyla, love, are you there?" I love that he always calls Teyla "love". It's so dern cute. *huggles her Beckett* And Teyla got a speech and everything tonight! Of course, they lose points by turning her into the damsel in distress (again), but it was more Teyla time, so I won't complain. I very much liked her speech.



Now, the problems:

1. The first twenty minutes? Too similar to "Lifeboat". I was one of those who supported this story when the spoilers first came out. TPTB took similar concepts from "100 Days" and "Unnatural Selection" and ended up with episodes, while varying in quality, that still managed to feel very different and remain unique to Atlantis and its characters. But the whole beginning of this was WAY to similar to "Lifeboat", and the eventual plot ended up being not much better. Could this episode have easily been done by SG-1? Yes. It didn't accomplish a unique feel until it utilized Sheppard's hero complex and piloting skills, only then coming into its own.

2. Okay, I know that by their very nature, team-episodes will be ElizabethLite. I get this and understand it. I only ask that TPTB spread episodes like these out a little throughout the season. Just space them out a bit and accept the fact that you made Elizabeth a main character, so you have to cater to her a bit more. Even when O'Neill was in charge of the SGC in season 8 and was pulling out of the show, he STILL had more meat and screentime half the time. Thus, I know that TPTB have made it work once, and they can do it again. I know many dislike Elizabeth, but many DO like her, and I don't mind episodes like these, I just wish they weren't all clumped together when the first half of the season had so much of her. It feels very uneven and, for me, very boring.

3. Okay, my main concern thus far: Sheppard. He was great in tonight's ep, but the resurgence of his "suicide-complex" just brought this nagging complaint back again. TPTB wanted a darker character for the lead of this show, and they got one. However, it seems to have been forgotten. So, where once Sheppard's aformentioned suicide-complex (ie. The Seige II, The Ark, and many others), his tendency towards extreme violence (ie. The Eye, Seige I), his at times painful awkwardness and social aversion (ie. Rising, Sateda) and his deep mistrust of military authority (ie. Any episode with a full-bird) was very interesting and promising of rich character growth, TPTB seemed to lose interest in what they started. This leaves them with, essentially, a shell of a character who says insensitive things, sleeps around every now and then, and plays hero like it's a game. He didn't start out as a cowboy. He started out almost tragic and much more interesting. But lately he's gotten very little to chew on and his characters heroics seems empty and unfulfilling. This was a problem in season 2, but I felt that episodes like Misbegotten, Sateda, The Real World, Common Ground, Phantoms, and The Return promised an end to that. Again, maybe it's just that we've had so many nonchalant, stand-alone, insignificant episodes one after one right next to each other (Tao of Rodney excluded), but it is hard to shake the feeling that Sheppard just isn't very interesting lately. That's a shame, seeing as the rest of his team has never been more interesting. I hate comparing SGA to SG-1, but at least in SG-1, I have the ability to care about all of the character simultaneously and to be interested in them. I felt that at the beginning of season 3, but not anymore.


I ended on a downer, but I still didn't really mind the ep. It was what it was, but it comes in during a string of eps that simply were as they were and nothing else (again, Tao of Rodney excluded). But I maintain that they made the season absolutely phenomenal when the year started so I hope that, as we crawl closer to some character reflection, major angst, and a big, booming finale, we pick up some of the wind lost from our sails. :cool:

Mitchell82
January 10th, 2007, 11:37 PM
I really don't see the comaprisons to Lifeboat as it was compleatly different IMO.

bluealien
January 11th, 2007, 12:01 AM
All I did was push someone out of the way of a car and i did actually get hit myself but I still thought it was the right thing to do even though I ended up hurt and at the speed the car was going and the lack of time I had there was a very good chance I'd be hit worse than i was, infact it was pure luck it wasn't fatal. In a situation like that though when you're faced with it, it just feels like the right thing to do, Sheppard being the kind of guy he's perceived as should've had that same feeling and helped them regardless of the consequences. Numerous times in the past he's put he life on the line for complete strangers so why this time did it take a member of his team being caught up in it for him to act? Heck he puts his life on the line for the whole of earth on a weekly basis, why should this time be any different? I feel it was very out of character for him and selfish compared to his previous actions/ the kind of character he's made out to be.

Pushing someone out of the way is a kind of instinctual reaction and I would think that most people would react in a similar fashion but willingly giving up your life for someone you dont know is totally different. If you were asked to step in front of a car to cause the car to swerve and avoid hitting several people, would you be so quick to volunteer. John has NO obligation to go around giving up his life on the slim chance of saving people he doesnt even know. Are we expecting him to step in everytime someone is in peril and offer up his life. John weighed up the situation in the beginning -because Herrick put them all in danger in the first place Johns first priority was to get his team off that moon and to safety. Rodney had told him that there was no way he could save those people so John concentrated on getting them rescued as they were running out of time. He only took the decision to try and save Teyla after the cirmcumstances changed and because it was someone very close to him he was prepared to give up his life to try and save her, but self sacrificing tendencies can only go so far because if John was to give up his life for everyone who crossed his path because they were in danger, then the man would have been dead long ago. As he said in LFG he cannot save everyone and should not be expected to.

bluealien
January 11th, 2007, 12:21 AM
I don't get the comparisons to Life Boat either and I watch the show for all the characters not just one so I wont dismiss any episode just because it didnt have a particular character.

This for me was a great ep - I love team eps and this featured everyone. McKay was wonderful - his usual insenitive self where Shep had to call him on it - but he's just being McKay and I loved when he didnt want to go with Lorne and said that we dont leave people behind. Behind all his snark he cares just as much for his team mates as the others do.

Loved Ronan in this too - he was so in character and popping his dislocated shoulder back himself was just so Ronan and Sheps expression was priceless. Its nice to see that the fearless warrior has got some phobias as well.

Teyla was stunning in this ep and her conversations with Jamus were amazing. She understood his position and what he was going through and even after he took her hostage and threatened her life, she could still forgive him because she knew he was only driven to act the way he did in desperation to save his people.

Shep was great I love how he tries to keep thinking positively even when Rodney keeps telling him how doomed they were. His actions to save Teyla in the end once again prove how far he would go to save those he cares about. He would do anything for his team and was prepared to give up his life to save Teyla. He made the decision without hesitation or second thoughts. This is so in character for him - he has lost too many people in the past that he cared about and he will go to any lenghts so that does not happen again - even giving up his own life.

Wonderful episode - great writing - great action - the Shuttle scene was amazing. Defininitely one of my favourite eps of the season.

Alipeeps
January 11th, 2007, 12:36 AM
All I did was push someone out of the way of a car and i did actually get hit myself but I still thought it was the right thing to do even though I ended up hurt and at the speed the car was going and the lack of time I had there was a very good chance I'd be hit worse than i was, infact it was pure luck it wasn't fatal. In a situation like that though when you're faced with it, it just feels like the right thing to do, Sheppard being the kind of guy he's perceived as should've had that same feeling and helped them regardless of the consequences. Numerous times in the past he's put he life on the line for complete strangers so why this time did it take a member of his team being caught up in it for him to act? Heck he puts his life on the line for the whole of earth on a weekly basis, why should this time be any different? I feel it was very out of character for him and selfish compared to his previous actions/ the kind of character he's made out to be.

I'm impressed that you did that and you should be proud of it. BUt I still maintain it is a very different situation to take a split second decision to put yourself in harm's way to save another than it is to evaluate your options (yes, they were short on time but it was not a "act now, right this second" decision) and choose almost certain death in the faint hope of maybe saving someone. That's why it's different from him putting "his life on the line for the whole of Earth on a weekly basis" and I can't say it's any more selfish than his decision in Letters from Pegasus to not go back for Orin's people (until circumstances meant they had to wait) so how it that out of character for him?


Also remember, John came up with his suicide plan at the last second, as he typically does when being emotionally and physically pushed. This wasn't something they had discussed and decided against prior. I think prior to Teyla being sucked in, they were rather busy dealing with their own lives in danger and were in fact in need of saving themselves.

As a First Responder, I also want to point out that even in rescue, there is a point of no return. A point where you are commanded to turn back becuase the situation has become hopeless and is now outside of your control. Even if they had the time to discuss the situation beyond Rodney's hurried, "that's impossible," as he was busy trying to save them, most likely they would not have chosen the suicide option. In Rescue, you are also trained to put yourself first and to not risk yourself to the point where you can no longer be of help others. I would imagine this situation would have been looked at similarily. It's not so much a split second instictive and reactive situation where no one can simply know for sure how they would react until in that moment. It was more of a controlled rescue situation. Much as firemen risk their lives going into a burning building to rescue others, but also so much as there is a point of no return where they are called back out. A controlled situation is different than a split second reaction. John's decision to do the suicide mission once he himself was out of danger, on the other hand, was such a split second gut reaction.

Two very good points. Up until that moment they were focused on just reaching the stranded members of the team and even trained resuce professionals are not expected to sacrific their lives to save others. Yes, they are expected to risk their lives... but in a controlled process and up to certain limits.



but then as rodney says in the long goodbye Tv is about "ridiculously attractive people in absurd situations", its not real, so putting real-life situations against this doesnt compare, because you'd never find yourslef in the exact sitution shep and the others were in. and hindsight is a wonderful thing isnt it.

Very good point.



Direction was a little odd this week; what with the shaking of the camera (there was one bit where it was a little excessive), and the Shep "fainting" scenes. I think it adds to the episode though, given how different the setting is.


Thanks for reminding me about this because I loved the unusual camera placement/direction etc in this ep. From the camera shaking as it followed the characters down the corridor (adding a really vivid sensation of the viewer POV there with them, running) to filming Sheppard through the window of the door hatch for one entire scene (adding to the sense of isolation, of being trapped and cut off from each other) and the wonderful cutting of the scene were Sheppard passes out... the slight slow motion to it and the jerky editing (there is a proper name for this technique which they mentioned on the commentary for Duet but I've forgotten it!) was great and really added to the sense of the room being airless and Sheppard being disoriented and slowed down.


And I must say, the suicide!Shep routine is getting a bit much. Now who is left for him to risk sure death for? He and Rodney were taking turns saving each other for awhile. I lost count on that one.

I'm starting to feel like the whole "suicide!Shep" as you call it is being rather over-stated. Yes, we know he'll do anything for his team, he has stated as much. However, it's not like is willing to throw his life away at any moment just for the sake of it. He risks his life for his team on many occasions, certainly - they all do. But he has only ever taken that decision to sacrifice himself (in the knowledge of certain or almost certain death) on 3 occasions (and one of those wasn't real!) - Siege, Progeny and The Ark - and in the case of the first two he did so to protect/save all of Atlantis AND all of Earth.



And the we-are-family theme is also at the stage where we can shout "Drink!" everytime it's mentioned. Please, for the love of Pete, can we finish the season without any more touchy feely scenes.

TPTB can't win can they? They responded to complaints from Season 2 etc that we weren't getting to see the kind of bonding and close team relationship people saw on SG1 and they promised to deal with that in Season 3... they have done... and now people are complaining that there's too much "touchy feely scenes"! :p



Teyla, seriously, tone it down. You are in danger of bursting a major vessel with these emotional rants. The girl goes from zero to sixty in a nanosecond.

Poor old Teyla can't seem to win either - everyone is always saying she is underwritten and doesn't get enough to do... but when we get an ep where she does have something to do and a decent amount of dialogue, she gets.. well, I'm not sure what you're saying here.. that she overdid it? That she was over-emotional?



I have to add my voice to those who protested the lack of Elizabeth. She is sadly and criminally underused in most episodes. The woman has a list of skills and credentials longer than most of the scientists on the expedition. Yet she is relegated to waving people through the gate and biting her nails until they return. What a waste! And in no way IMHO is she to be compared to General Hammond. Good grief! What a copout by the writers!


What would you have done differently to have her more involved in this episide then? The simple logistics of her role does mean that she is restricted to Atlantis much of the time.. hence the reason for my comparing her (in this sense of her role) to Hammond. Would you have had the leader of the expedition come on a resuce mission to a dangerously unstable moon? What was there for her to do there? How would diplomacy or linguistic skills have helped? I suppose she could have negotiated with Jamus but, at the time they requested help, they didn't know they were going to have that problem.


And what the hell is up with the lack of Elizabeth lately? She is an interesting, intelligent, complex character -- one that I find SORELY underused. I dare the writers to have the balls to write more than a couple of episodes a season that heavily incorporates Elizabeth - and her much touted diplomatic/linguistic talents - into the storyline.


Lack of Elizabeth lately? Yes, in this episode the setting meant she didn't have much to do which is a shame. But lately... in The Game she was quite involved and was, for once, actually seen using those diplomatic skills. In Tao she was very heavily involved, both as a part of the team, as something of an emotional touchstone for Rodney, helping him come to terms with what was happening to him, and using her linguistic skills and knowledge of the Ancients in a big way - actually working with Radek down in the lab. In Echoes she was a big part of the storyline.. being one of the first to see the visions and, again, using her linguistic skills in the lab to help solve the mystery, not to mention that we saw her in her role as leader, seeking to organise and coordinate the plans to save the city/her people.



3. Okay, my main concern thus far: Sheppard. He was great in tonight's ep, but the resurgence of his "suicide-complex" just brought this nagging complaint back again. TPTB wanted a darker character for the lead of this show, and they got one. However, it seems to have been forgotten. So, where once Sheppard's aformentioned suicide-complex (ie. The Seige II, The Ark, and many others), his tendency towards extreme violence (ie. The Eye, Seige I), his at times painful awkwardness and social aversion (ie. Rising, Sateda) and his deep mistrust of military authority (ie. Any episode with a full-bird) was very interesting and promising of rich character growth, TPTB seemed to lose interest in what they started. This leaves them with, essentially, a shell of a character who says insensitive things, sleeps around every now and then, and plays hero like it's a game. He didn't start out as a cowboy. He started out almost tragic and much more interesting. But lately he's gotten very little to chew on and his characters heroics seems empty and unfulfilling. This was a problem in season 2, but I felt that episodes like Misbegotten, Sateda, The Real World, Common Ground, Phantoms, and The Return promised an end to that. Again, maybe it's just that we've had so many nonchalant, stand-alone, insignificant episodes one after one right next to each other (Tao of Rodney excluded), but it is hard to shake the feeling that Sheppard just isn't very interesting lately. That's a shame, seeing as the rest of his team has never been more interesting. I hate comparing SGA to SG-1, but at least in SG-1, I have the ability to care about all of the character simultaneously and to be interested in them. I felt that at the beginning of season 3, but not anymore.


First of all - "and many others". What others? As I mentioned above, I think the mythology of Sheppard's suicide complex has somewhat overtaken the reality of it. Other than Siege, Progeny and now the Ark, when - out of 3 seasons of episodes - has he ever risked or accepted certain death? Yes, he's risked his life, as have the entire team, but consciously deciding to give up his life to save others?

Secondly - "extreme violence". I agree that his actions in Siege I were dark and they were supposed to be, but I don't see that they make him a character with a tendency towards extreme violence? And The Eye? He is a trained soldier who was defending his home and his people against an aggressive invading force - who had no compunctions about killing his people. D'you think Sumner would have done any different if he'd still been in command? D'you think Lorne would have acted differently?

LoveConquers
January 11th, 2007, 12:59 AM
I apologize for going off-topic, but I don't understand what complaining about the supposed lack of Elizabeth has to do with this ep? This is the Ark episode thread. Why are some Elizabeth fans feeling the need to complain in this particular thread?

Just to point out, next to John and Rodney, she is the third most represented character. When you look at our other main characters--Carson, Ronon, and Teyla--Elizabeth has a lot more overall screen time than any of the rest of them. She's been given several meaty roles this year, including her own episode. And I love Elizabeth, so I think it's great. I can understand the frustration at her not being used in more creative roles sometimes, but I do not understand these complaints at her not having enough screen time, especially in light of our other main characters who have had even less attention.

bluealien
January 11th, 2007, 01:04 AM
Sheps self sacrificing complex seems to be coming into question now - but its something he has always done from season one. He has pretty much risked his life for everyone and I didnt hear any complaints when he did it in TRW. Its ok for him to do it for Ronan and Weir and pretty much everyone else on the expedition but somehow its a problem when he is doing it for Teyla.

We know that he would risk his life for anyone on his team and he told

Teyla this in Sateda.

RoryJ
January 11th, 2007, 01:34 AM
Sheps self sacrificing complex seems to be coming into question now - but its something he has always done from season one. He has pretty much risked his life for everyone and I didnt hear any complaints when he did it in TRW. Its ok for him to do it for Ronan and Weir and pretty much everyone else on the expedition but somehow its a problem when he is doing it for Teyla.


I have no problem with him doing it for anyone. But one time I'd like to see him sit down and talk it out with another character is all. The Teyla talk in Sateda affirmed it, but my question is why? He finally has a family he cares so much about and would die for, but why is his own life so invaluable to him? And the others let him do it without a really consequential discussion of it later. Elizabeth came close with her asking him to get his head examined, but she was of course joking. I don't want this facet of him to stop, but I just want that aspect of his character to be touched upon more seriously and with more consequence. We got the heaviness of it in The Seige, but since then I feel it's almost been a character cop-out.

And his continuous "I'd do it for any of you" assertions; someone tell him no! Stop nearly killing yourself, boy! Your life means something to us. I want the team pulling out all the stops for him one day. Maybe that will feel more equal to me. We've seen Rodney take big risks for him in "Aurora", and we've seen Elizabeth defend him in "Intruder". But I want something bigger to show him that his family cares just as much about him as he does for them.


I don't get the comparisons to Life Boat either and I watch the show for all the characters not just one so I wont dismiss any episode just because it didnt have a particular character.


I like all the characters too, and I didn't dismiss the episode. And I would not re-write The Ark to include more Elizabeth. I would just space out some of these stand-alone team episodes with the more Atlantis-based, all-inclusive episodes. It's more the stand-alone, reset-button-syndrome that's bothering me more lately.


Secondly - "extreme violence". I agree that his actions in Siege I were dark and they were supposed to be, but I don't see that they make him a character with a tendency towards extreme violence? And The Eye? He is a trained soldier who was defending his home and his people against an aggressive invading force - who had no compunctions about killing his people. D'you think Sumner would have done any different if he'd still been in command? D'you think Lorne would have acted differently?

I saw it all in the other character's reactions. Look at how Teyla and Ford look at him in Seige I, or even how Rodney looks at him after he kills the Wraith in Aurora. They're surprised, even a bit intimidated. That was the darkness of the character that I enjoyed and is pretty much now downplayed. His sometimes surprising violence (I think surprising would have been better than extreme; perhaps because we had never seen Sniper!Shep before The Eye) mixes better with his willingness to give his life up. I want some of that darkness and complexity back. But it's for the Sheppard thread, since I didn't have a problem with him in The Ark, I was just generally unmoved.

LoveConquers
January 11th, 2007, 01:49 AM
Thanks for reminding me about this because I loved the unusual camera placement/direction etc in this ep. From the camera shaking as it followed the characters down the corridor (adding a really vivid sensation of the viewer POV there with them, running) to filming Sheppard through the window of the door hatch for one entire scene (adding to the sense of isolation, of being trapped and cut off from each other) and the wonderful cutting of the scene were Sheppard passes out... the slight slow motion to it and the jerky editing (there is a proper name for this technique which they mentioned on the commentary for Duet but I've forgotten it!) was great and really added to the sense of the room being airless and Sheppard being disoriented and slowed down.



I'm starting to feel like the whole "suicide!Shep" as you call it is being rather over-stated. Yes, we know he'll do anything for his team, he has stated as much. However, it's not like is willing to throw his life away at any moment just for the sake of it. He risks his life for his team on many occasions, certainly - they all do. But he has only ever taken that decision to sacrifice himself (in the knowledge of certain or almost certain death) on 3 occasions (and one of those wasn't real!) - Siege, Progeny and The Ark - and in the case of the first two he did so to protect/save all of Atlantis AND all of Earth.



TPTB can't win can they? They responded to complaints from Season 2 etc that we weren't getting to see the kind of bonding and close team relationship people saw on SG1 and they promised to deal with that in Season 3... they have done... and now people are complaining that there's too much "touchy feely scenes"! :p



Poor old Teyla can't seem to win either - everyone is always saying she is underwritten and doesn't get enough to do... but when we get an ep where she does have something to do and a decent amount of dialogue, she gets.. well, I'm not sure what you're saying here.. that she overdid it? That she was over-emotional?



What would you have done differently to have her more involved in this episide then? The simple logistics of her role does mean that she is restricted to Atlantis much of the time.. hence the reason for my comparing her (in this sense of her role) to Hammond. Would you have had the leader of the expedition come on a resuce mission to a dangerously unstable moon? What was there for her to do there? How would diplomacy or linguistic skills have helped? I suppose she could have negotiated with Jamus but, at the time they requested help, they didn't know they were going to have that problem.



Lack of Elizabeth lately? Yes, in this episode the setting meant she didn't have much to do which is a shame. But lately... in The Game she was quite involved and was, for once, actually seen using those diplomatic skills. In Tao she was very heavily involved, both as a part of the team, as something of an emotional touchstone for Rodney, helping him come to terms with what was happening to him, and using her linguistic skills and knowledge of the Ancients in a big way - actually working with Radek down in the lab. In Echoes she was a big part of the storyline.. being one of the first to see the visions and, again, using her linguistic skills in the lab to help solve the mystery, not to mention that we saw her in her role as leader, seeking to organise and coordinate the plans to save the city/her people.



First of all - "and many others". What others? As I mentioned above, I think the mythology of Sheppard's suicide complex has somewhat overtaken the reality of it. Other than Siege, Progeny and now the Ark, when - out of 3 seasons of episodes - has he ever risked or accepted certain death? Yes, he's risked his life, as have the entire team, but consciously deciding to give up his life to save others?

Secondly - "extreme violence". I agree that his actions in Siege I were dark and they were supposed to be, but I don't see that they make him a character with a tendency towards extreme violence? And The Eye? He is a trained soldier who was defending his home and his people against an aggressive invading force - who had no compunctions about killing his people. D'you think Sumner would have done any different if he'd still been in command? D'you think Lorne would have acted differently?

Just wanted to say thanks for the great comments! I agree with everything you said here.

I too forgot to comment on the unique camera work in this episode. I really enjoyed it as well. I thought the editing, especially in the scene with John and Ronon struggling to close the bulkhead door (whatever that door is called), was also really well done and original. It had a more personal and raw feel to it for some reason, not sure if I can explain why, but just that it left me with that feeling.

I personally have loved the team bonding "touchy feely" moments we've been given in season three. And I loved Teyla's heartfelt words to Jamus. Everyone will have their own opinion of course, but it does seem like you said, no matter what they do to try to make fans happy, people will complain. Well, no complaints from me in the team moments department! I adore these little character tidbits.

Also, great Elizabeth moments that you mentioned! She has had a great year! Which is why I said before that I don't understand some of the comments in regards to this. The eps you listed were second half of the season, and she was used even more heavily in the first half.

And I also agree with your comments about John as well. It is not logical to say that three moments makes a supposed suicide complex, not when they are faced with life-threatening situations almost every day. As I commented earlier, risking your life is completely different than knowingly sacrificing your life. He only did this when it seemed there were no other options and he thought by his actions, he could save those that he loved.

Anyway, all that to say, I agree. :)

Alipeeps
January 11th, 2007, 01:54 AM
I saw it all in the other character's reactions. Look at how Teyla and Ford look at him in Seige I, or even how Rodney looks at him after he kills the Wraith in Aurora. They're surprised, even a bit intimidated. That was the darkness of the character that I enjoyed and is pretty much now downplayed. His sometimes surprising violence (I think surprising would have been better than extreme; perhaps because we had never seen Sniper!Shep before The Eye) mixes better with his willingness to give his life up. I want some of that darkness and complexity back. But it's for the Sheppard thread, since I didn't have a problem with him in The Ark, I was just generally unmoved.

Okay, I get the surprising aspect of it. The way it was phrased before, "extreme violence" made it sound like inappropriate violence, like his actions were not warranted. I think his ability to be violent is surprising and I like that aspect of the character.. as a rule, he is so laid-back and superficially charming that it is easy to forget that he is a soldier, trained in combat and battle-hardened.

LoveConquers
January 11th, 2007, 02:09 AM
I have no problem with him doing it for anyone. But one time I'd like to see him sit down and talk it out with another character is all. The Teyla talk in Sateda affirmed it, but my question is why? He finally has a family he cares so much about and would die for, but why is his own life so invaluable to him? And the others let him do it without a really consequential discussion of it later. Elizabeth came close with her asking him to get his head examined, but she was of course joking. I don't want this facet of him to stop, but I just want that aspect of his character to be touched upon more seriously and with more consequence. We got the heaviness of it in The Seige, but since then I feel it's almost been a character cop-out.


Ahhh, this makes much more sense to me now. Thanks for explaining! I agree as well that I would love to see it verbally addressed and I too would love to see a more serious consequence, as much as can be done in this kind of show where you need a bit of a "reset" button for time and practical purpose. I don't feel that it's by any means a character cop-out though.

Linzi
January 11th, 2007, 02:09 AM
I'm impressed that you did that and you should be proud of it. BUt I still maintain it is a very different situation to take a split second decision to put yourself in harm's way to save another than it is to evaluate your options (yes, they were short on time but it was not a "act now, right this second" decision) and choose almost certain death in the faint hope of maybe saving someone. That's why it's different from him putting "his life on the line for the whole of Earth on a weekly basis" and I can't say it's any more selfish than his decision in Letters from Pegasus to not go back for Orin's people (until circumstances meant they had to wait) so how it that out of character for him?



Two very good points. Up until that moment they were focused on just reaching the stranded members of the team and even trained resuce professionals are not expected to sacrific their lives to save others. Yes, they are expected to risk their lives... but in a controlled process and up to certain limits.



Very good point.



Thanks for reminding me about this because I loved the unusual camera placement/direction etc in this ep. From the camera shaking as it followed the characters down the corridor (adding a really vivid sensation of the viewer POV there with them, running) to filming Sheppard through the window of the door hatch for one entire scene (adding to the sense of isolation, of being trapped and cut off from each other) and the wonderful cutting of the scene were Sheppard passes out... the slight slow motion to it and the jerky editing (there is a proper name for this technique which they mentioned on the commentary for Duet but I've forgotten it!) was great and really added to the sense of the room being airless and Sheppard being disoriented and slowed down.



I'm starting to feel like the whole "suicide!Shep" as you call it is being rather over-stated. Yes, we know he'll do anything for his team, he has stated as much. However, it's not like is willing to throw his life away at any moment just for the sake of it. He risks his life for his team on many occasions, certainly - they all do. But he has only ever taken that decision to sacrifice himself (in the knowledge of certain or almost certain death) on 3 occasions (and one of those wasn't real!) - Siege, Progeny and The Ark - and in the case of the first two he did so to protect/save all of Atlantis AND all of Earth.



TPTB can't win can they? They responded to complaints from Season 2 etc that we weren't getting to see the kind of bonding and close team relationship people saw on SG1 and they promised to deal with that in Season 3... they have done... and now people are complaining that there's too much "touchy feely scenes"! :p



Poor old Teyla can't seem to win either - everyone is always saying she is underwritten and doesn't get enough to do... but when we get an ep where she does have something to do and a decent amount of dialogue, she gets.. well, I'm not sure what you're saying here.. that she overdid it? That she was over-emotional?



What would you have done differently to have her more involved in this episide then? The simple logistics of her role does mean that she is restricted to Atlantis much of the time.. hence the reason for my comparing her (in this sense of her role) to Hammond. Would you have had the leader of the expedition come on a resuce mission to a dangerously unstable moon? What was there for her to do there? How would diplomacy or linguistic skills have helped? I suppose she could have negotiated with Jamus but, at the time they requested help, they didn't know they were going to have that problem.



Lack of Elizabeth lately? Yes, in this episode the setting meant she didn't have much to do which is a shame. But lately... in The Game she was quite involved and was, for once, actually seen using those diplomatic skills. In Tao she was very heavily involved, both as a part of the team, as something of an emotional touchstone for Rodney, helping him come to terms with what was happening to him, and using her linguistic skills and knowledge of the Ancients in a big way - actually working with Radek down in the lab. In Echoes she was a big part of the storyline.. being one of the first to see the visions and, again, using her linguistic skills in the lab to help solve the mystery, not to mention that we saw her in her role as leader, seeking to organise and coordinate the plans to save the city/her people.



First of all - "and many others". What others? As I mentioned above, I think the mythology of Sheppard's suicide complex has somewhat overtaken the reality of it. Other than Siege, Progeny and now the Ark, when - out of 3 seasons of episodes - has he ever risked or accepted certain death? Yes, he's risked his life, as have the entire team, but consciously deciding to give up his life to save others?

Secondly - "extreme violence". I agree that his actions in Siege I were dark and they were supposed to be, but I don't see that they make him a character with a tendency towards extreme violence? And The Eye? He is a trained soldier who was defending his home and his people against an aggressive invading force - who had no compunctions about killing his people. D'you think Sumner would have done any different if he'd still been in command? D'you think Lorne would have acted differently?
Great post! I agree with all you say.
It's really strange. People want more Teyla, 'let's use her more, give her something to get her teeth into', then when that's done, we get 'tone it down'. Poor PTB - they really can't win with some viewers, can they? :( People ask for more team friendship, more bonding, then when we get it, it's suddenly too much, too OTT. How totally ridiculous - in my opinion, of course!! Of course, maybe the team bonding is not between the characters a few people want it to be between? ;)
What I find hysterical, and extremely sad, is that it all seems to me to boil down to shipping preferences. I wonder if the reaction by a few people would've been the same if Sheppard had saved Weir? I think not. It's all about perspective.
I didn't see any ship of the romantic sort in this episode, though I can see why some people could interpret it that way. I saw a man saving a good friend who he cares about.

As for the lack of Weir. She was never intended to go on lots of away missions - that's not her role, and it never will be. You can't change who the character is and what her role is on the show. She's the leader of the expedition, and this is an action, science fiction show. It's no good moaning about the lack of Weir in team episodes, because she just isn't needed on the mission, and it would be unrealistic to have her there. What could she have done on this mission? Absolutely nothing. Why would her linguistic skills or diplomatic ones have been needed here anyway? Let's have many episodes where she's needed off world? How boring. Viewing figures would definitely nosedive if every other week Weir translates this, or negotiates that. Sure, every now and then it's fine, but frequently? Weir got a whole episode to herself this season, and has had a lot more screen time and character moments. Look at TOR, for example. She got some great character moments with McKay there! Yet, people still complain. Poor PTB, they really can't win.

Linzi
January 11th, 2007, 02:19 AM
and OMG its official!
best episodes of the season
Sateda, Common Ground and the ARK

OMG OMG

i have no nails left, i loved every second, as much as i love our city i love when they get away from the set, the filming instantly becomes more creative and the show feels refreshed..... i can't say enough

on a scale from one to ten i rate it a FREAKING HELL THAT WAS GREAT!
:lol: So, you liked the episode?


I apologize for going off-topic, but I don't understand what complaining about the supposed lack of Elizabeth has to do with this ep? This is the Ark episode thread. Why are some Elizabeth fans feeling the need to complain in this particular thread?

Just to point out, next to John and Rodney, she is the third most represented character. When you look at our other main characters--Carson, Ronon, and Teyla--Elizabeth has a lot more overall screen time than any of the rest of them. She's been given several meaty roles this year, including her own episode. And I love Elizabeth, so I think it's great. I can understand the frustration at her not being used in more creative roles sometimes, but I do not understand these complaints at her not having enough screen time, especially in light of our other main characters who have had even less attention.

Oh, didn't you realise? You mount campaigns on the episode threads to push forward your desires for the show because TPTB frequent here, will realise how valid your views are and instantly take note for next season ;) If only!!!
I agree. Weir has had a really good run this year, with some great moments. Other than TRW, which was Weir alone for virtually the first half an hour, we've had her having important appearances in NML, Misbegotten, Progeny, CG, Return I and especially Return II, Echoes and TOR, where she had some fantastic and really emotional scenes. I really don't see what all the complaints are about. Other than Shpeppard and McKay she's had the most amount of screentime and good character moments. I loved the team dynamics in this episode, and enjoy episodes where the core team of four, with maybe Lorne and Carson, or whoever, join the mission too.

bluealien
January 11th, 2007, 02:28 AM
Great post! I agree with all you say.
It's really strange. People want more Teyla, 'let's use her more, give her something to get her teeth into', then when that's done, we get 'tone it down'. Poor PTB - they really can't win with some viewers, can they? :( People ask for more team friendship, more bonding, then when we get it, it's suddenly too much, too OTT. How totally ridiculous!! Of course, maybe the team bonding is not between the characters a few people want it to be between? ;)
What I find hysterical, and extremely sad, is that it all seems to me to boil down to shipping preferences. I wonder if the reaction would've been the same if Sheppard had saved Weir? I think not. It's all about perspective.
I didn't see any ship of the romantic sort in this episode, though I can see why some people could interpret it that way. I saw a man saving a good friend who he cares about.

As for the lack of Weir. She was never intended to go on lots of away missions - that's not her role, and it never will be. You can't change who the character is and what her role is on the show. She's the leader of the expedition, and this is an action, science fiction show. It's no good moaning about the lack of Weir in team episodes, because she just isn't needed on the mission, and it would be unrealistic to have her there. What could she have done on this mission? Absolutely nothing. Why would her linguistic skills or diplomatic ones have been needed here anyway? Have many episodes where she's needed off world? How boring. Viewing figures would definitely nosedive if every other week Weir translates this, or negotiates that. Sure, every now and then it's fine, but frequently? Weir got a whole episode to herself this season, and has had a lot more screen time and character moments. Look at TOR, for example. She got some great character moments with McKay there! Yet, people still complain. Poor PTB, they really can't win.

Very well said Linzi.

I agree with everything you said and I loved the team moments in this ep and its exactly what we have been asking for. Some though will always complain about Teyla no matter what she does, but for me she was outstanding in this ep. Her emotion and compassion for Jamas shone through and she I think she could identify with him, therefore understanding his need to save his people.

prion
January 11th, 2007, 04:09 AM
I really don't see the comaprisons to Lifeboat as it was compleatly different IMO.

Yes. I mean, if you want to gripe about similarities, "Starlost" came out before Stargate and the whole series was based on people on a floating ark ship. It's been done before in various sci-fi novels. ;)

Southern Red
January 11th, 2007, 04:18 AM
I'm starting to feel like the whole "suicide!Shep" as you call it is being rather over-stated. Yes, we know he'll do anything for his team, he has stated as much. However, it's not like is willing to throw his life away at any moment just for the sake of it. He risks his life for his team on many occasions, certainly - they all do. But he has only ever taken that decision to sacrifice himself (in the knowledge of certain or almost certain death) on 3 occasions (and one of those wasn't real!) - Siege, Progeny and The Ark - and in the case of the first two he did so to protect/save all of Atlantis AND all of Earth.

I would also add Hot Zone, TRW (not certain death, but certainly likely). It's not that he's suicidal. That was moving and inspiring the first couple of times. It's just that they can't figure out what to do with him, so they keep repeating the same actions. As a Shep fan, you surely would love to see him come up with a better solution. Or at least have someone else do the suicide run for a change.


TPTB can't win can they? They responded to complaints from Season 2 etc that we weren't getting to see the kind of bonding and close team relationship people saw on SG1 and they promised to deal with that in Season 3... they have done... and now people are complaining that there's too much "touchy feely scenes"! :p

And once again, they take a good idea and run it in the ground. It's like they think we're thick and didn't understand the first time. ;)


Poor old Teyla can't seem to win either - everyone is always saying she is underwritten and doesn't get enough to do... but when we get an ep where she does have something to do and a decent amount of dialogue, she gets.. well, I'm not sure what you're saying here.. that she overdid it? That she was over-emotional?

She's freqently overemotional. Just my opinion, of course. Yelling in people's faces seems to be one of the few ways they can think how to write her.

What would you have done differently to have her more involved in this episide then? The simple logistics of her role does mean that she is restricted to Atlantis much of the time.. hence the reason for my comparing her (in this sense of her role) to Hammond. Would you have had the leader of the expedition come on a resuce mission to a dangerously unstable moon? What was there for her to do there? How would diplomacy or linguistic skills have helped? I suppose she could have negotiated with Jamus but, at the time they requested help, they didn't know they were going to have that problem.

Lack of Elizabeth lately? Yes, in this episode the setting meant she didn't have much to do which is a shame. But lately... in The Game she was quite involved and was, for once, actually seen using those diplomatic skills. In Tao she was very heavily involved, both as a part of the team, as something of an emotional touchstone for Rodney, helping him come to terms with what was happening to him, and using her linguistic skills and knowledge of the Ancients in a big way - actually working with Radek down in the lab. In Echoes she was a big part of the storyline.. being one of the first to see the visions and, again, using her linguistic skills in the lab to help solve the mystery, not to mention that we saw her in her role as leader, seeking to organise and coordinate the plans to save the city/her people.


It's not that she could have had more to do in this particular ep but that overall she seems to be doing the same things. It's almost like they could film a couple of scenes with her and just insert them in various shows. And as for screen time, I would have to check on that. I doubt though that she has as much time as anyone on the team.



[QUOTE=bluealien;6185516]Sheps self sacrificing complex seems to be coming into question now - but its something he has always done from season one. He has pretty much risked his life for everyone and I didnt hear any complaints when he did it in TRW. Its ok for him to do it for Ronan and Weir and pretty much everyone else on the expedition but somehow its a problem when he is doing it for Teyla.

No, it was Teyla's turn. My whole point is that it's too much of a good thing. One rescue would have solidified the "I'd do anything" idea. Let it be Teyla. No problem.

We know that he would risk his life for anyone on his team and he told

Teyla this in Sateda.


Yes, but did we have to see the same thing that many times? I know some of you think this is all about ship. Well, if it is for the Sparky shippers it also is for the Sheyla shippers or any others. Remember the reaction to TRW? If we are going to make snide accusations about people pushing their ship, we are playing right into the hands of TPTB. They are the ones who created the ship confusion. Let's save our hostility for them and stop judging the opinions of other posters. Please.

expendable_crewman
January 11th, 2007, 04:21 AM
From McKay's list of grievances (;)) to the Shep/Ronan interration, was very well done.Re-watched last night.

Did anyone notice that Sheppard hits Ronon on his sore shoulder just before he gets in the shuttle?

It happens right after Ronon reminds him about fighting to the death. Sheppard locks his face shield, says he's looking forward to it, and taps Ronon on the shoulder. Ronon grits his teeth.

Funny.


We got another layer on how the Wraith have impacted the Pegasus galaxy. Thanks to that twist, I actually cared about the people in the glowly box.I'm a fan of these layers myself.


This may have been mentioned before, but I will say it anyway. This episode demonstrated one of the major differences between SG1 and Sheppard's team in Atlantis more than any other so far. The Atlantis team has the ability to grow as friends in a way that is not possible with SG1. It seems to be happening, whether by accident or design. Sheppard's team has only 1 military person, Sheppard. The others follow him and accept his orders, but do it completely by choice. and, he has them in his team by choice.

SG1 had the constraints of having 2 military personnel, which set up certain uncrossable boundaries. Those boundaries always meant the friendships could not be fully played out. I am really enjoying the visible growth of the feelings, even if unspoken, the SGA team have for each other. I think this is aided by the fact that they can openly argue and disagree. If this continues, I think it could make for very good drama and comedy. IMHO, of course!I'm a big fan of sci-fi and SG1. Right now SGA is my favorite sci-fi show and your comments skillfully demonstrate one of the reasons.

Atlantis has spent several years building the dynamic as described in your post. Echoes, Tao, the Ark, to name a few, got an extra umph (for me) because I love team interaction.

It's working.

My new year wish: the PTBs realize it has a great team and stop messing with it.

Oops, sorry. Wrong thread ... :cool:

Reaceania
January 11th, 2007, 04:22 AM
I just want to quickly comment on this before I get around to posting my comments on the ep (I have no intention of getting into this in that post).

Can I just request that this thread doesn’t become a ship war thread. Taa.


...
I wonder if the reaction would've been the same if Sheppard had saved Weir? I think not

[mod snip - please do not quote people from other threads out of context / without permission. And please do not air fandom grievances in the episode threads. Let people have their opinions without disparaging them. thank you.]


*disappointed with this fandom right now. Goes back to work*
Back to post my thoughts from the ep later when on a break.

FoolishPleasure
January 11th, 2007, 04:32 AM
I'm starting to feel like the whole "suicide!Shep" as you call it is being rather over-stated. Yes, we know he'll do anything for his team, he has stated as much. However, it's not like is willing to throw his life away at any moment just for the sake of it. He risks his life for his team on many occasions, certainly - they all do. But he has only ever taken that decision to sacrifice himself (in the knowledge of certain or almost certain death) on 3 occasions (and one of those wasn't real!) - Siege, Progeny and The Ark - and in the case of the first two he did so to protect/save all of Atlantis AND all of Earth.
Don't forget Intruder, or No Man's Land, or even The Tower, when he did that ultimate sacrifice for the team by sleeping with a teenager. ;)


TPTB can't win can they? They responded to complaints from Season 2 etc that we weren't getting to see the kind of bonding and close team relationship people saw on SG1 and they promised to deal with that in Season 3... they have done... and now people are complaining that there's too much "touchy feely scenes"!

Because TPTB are focusing only on Shep and HIS bonding with the team. Where is the bonding between everyone else?


Poor old Teyla can't seem to win either - everyone is always saying she is underwritten and doesn't get enough to do... but when we get an ep where she does have something to do and a decent amount of dialogue, she gets.. well, I'm not sure what you're saying here.. that she overdid it? That she was over-emotional?
I agree that Teyla AND Elizabeth have both been shortchanged since day one of this series. I find it strange that the writers can write a good Weir episode once or twice a season, or one or two good eppys for Teyla, but they can't be consistent with it. Do they even have the ability to write good Teyla and Elizabeth scenes in the SAME episode? I get the feeling they come up with good "female" lines and just dole them out a week at a time - Teyla today, Lizzie tomorrow. What the heck are they going to do when Jewel and Amanda show up? :S


Secondly - "extreme violence". I agree that his actions in Siege I were dark and they were supposed to be, but I don't see that they make him a character with a tendency towards extreme violence?

The problem with Sheppard is that he remains an unknown after all this time. We still do not know what drives him or his likes/dislikes. On SG1 we knew that O'neill had tragically lost his son, and that he had been tortured as a POW, so when Jack used his "dark side" the audience knew where it came from, and why. Wrestling with his inner demons was what made Jack so interesting. Shep has none of that going on, which is why a lot of fans are finding him stale, and seeing no true motivation for wanting to sacrifice himself all the time. It would be nice to find out something is eating away at him inside, causing all this separation anxiety, but I really don't think the writers even know who John Sheppard is.

Linzi
January 11th, 2007, 04:46 AM
I know some of you think this is all about ship. Well, if it is for the Sparky shippers it also is for the Sheyla shippers or any others. Remember the reaction to TRW? If we are going to make snide accusations about people pushing their ship, we are playing right into the hands of TPTB. They are the ones who created the ship confusion. Let's save our hostility for them and stop judging the opinions of other posters. Please.[/B]

I would beg to differ here Southern. The writers, execs etc don't create ship confusion deliberately that I can see. Half the time it's only to be found in some shippers minds! Sure, TPTB put in some sexual tension - between many of the characters, and this people can either squee over, denounce or ignore, but you think they deliberately write scenes to annoy and confuse shippers? Really? I thought they gave little morsels to followers of different pairings to keep them satisfied and to give everyone a little of what they wanted.
I think you overestimate the importance of romantic relationships between characters in Atlantis in TPTB's minds. I also think a lot of what shippers see is throught their shippy specs, and perhaps wasn't even intended the way some interpret a scene.
Quite a few writers have openly said they dislike ship, and I can well see why. What ever they do, people won't be happy.
You also want to save your hostility for TPTB? Why? Because they haven't promoted your ship recently? Or because they've deliberately left everything vague? Or perhaps in your eyes, promoted another? If they don't do what you want, you become hostile? TPTB don't do loads of stuff I want to see, and I whine, accept it and move on. Why should they do what I want? They have to cater for all the viewers.
You see, this is what I don't understand about shipping. Why can't people just be happy with the snippets they get, imagine the rest, and ignore anything they consider a betrayal to their own ship? TPTB have stated many times, as have the actors, that there will be no definitive ship in Atlants between the main characters. We all know that, so why is hostility needed towards TPTB?

Southern Red
January 11th, 2007, 04:48 AM
Very good points Reaceania and FP. Everything is not always about ship, even for us shippers.;) FP ITA about Shep. He has always been my favorite character for a variety of reasons. :) I love his heart. It's as big as all outdoors and he tries without success to hide his emotions which JF does such a superb job of displaying. But we don't know after nearly 3 years what makes him tick. My original expression of disappointment in him in The Ark speaks to that idea. Arguably, you could see him as just saying "Ho hum, another team member in peril. I guess I'll have to save the day by sacrifising (sp?) myself. Damm, I lived. Huh?" JF must be getting terribly tired of acting this same scenario. All the writers have put him in this situation. Can't they think of something else for crying out loud?

Ken C., if you are still lurking. I know you're not going to be involved in S4, but can you just pass the word. Please stop this. Pease give him a past life. Please tell us why he's so closed off. Anything.

Alipeeps
January 11th, 2007, 04:55 AM
Re-watched last night.

Did anyone notice that Sheppard hits Ronon on his sore shoulder just before he gets in the shuttle?

It happens right after Ronon reminds him about fighting to the death. Sheppard locks his face shield, says he's looking forward to it, and taps Ronon on the shoulder. Ronon grits his teeth.

Funny.


Yup. Noticed it, loved it. :D


Don't forget Intruder, or No Man's Land, or even The Tower, when he did that ultimate sacrifice for the team by sleeping with a teenager. ;)

Firstly, Intruder or No Man's Land were not suicide missions.. as I've said before, he often risks his life (and those were certainly dangerous undertakings with a high risk of death) - and to a certain extent we expect that of the chief military officer - but that is a different proposition entirely to going into something KNOWING you are going to die - or are extremely unlikely to survive.

Secondly, as well as keeping the shipper wars out of the ep thread, can we also do without the snide anti-kirking remarks. You want to make insinuations like that, that's what the STAKKER thread is for.



Because TPTB are focusing only on Shep and HIS bonding with the team. Where is the bonding between everyone else?

You mean like all the bonding McKay did with everyone in Tao? The bonding Teyla and Ronon did in Echoes? Aside from which, Sheppard is the lead character of the show and the show focuses on his team's adventures so it's not unsurprising that the relationship between him and the team comes to the forefront.

[/QUOTE]

Linzi
January 11th, 2007, 05:02 AM
Yup. Noticed it, loved it. :D



Firstly, Intruder or No Man's Land were not suicide missions.. as I've said before, he often risks his life (and those were certainly dangerous undertakings with a high risk of death) - and to a certain extent we expect that of the chief military officer - but that is a different proposition entirely to going into something KNOWING you are going to die - or are extremely unlikely to survive.

Secondly, as well as keeping the shipper wars out of the ep thread, can we also do without the snide anti-kirking remarks. You want to make insinuations like that, that's what the STAKKER thread is for.



You mean like all the bonding McKay did with everyone in Tao? The bonding Teyla and Ronon did in Echoes? Aside from which, Sheppard is the lead character of the show and the show focuses on his team's adventures so it's not unsurprising that the relationship between him and the team comes to the forefront.


Agreed! Great and logical post, Ali.

prion
January 11th, 2007, 05:03 AM
No, Shep isn't suicidal. He wouldn't be here now if he were. He is, however, very loyal to his teammates, which is why he chose to do the what appeared to be suicidal run on the shuttle/glider so he could save Teyla.

Before that, Rodney had stated pretty B&W that there was NO way to bring that device back on the puddle jumper, and that the shuttle wasn't meant to fly - it was meant for a one-way trip back to the planet (as Shep did). Shep wouldn't have taken the risk if Janus hadn't basically kidnapped Teyla and stuck her in the device as well. As someone said, Shep probably would have a hard time living with himself if he'd just said 'nah, can't do it' knowing Teyla was in there.

And he survived through sheer dumb luck and good piloting skills (something most of us use every day when we drive to work and swerve to avoid the jerk in the SUV who's too busy reading the paper to drive - no kidding!)

Southern Red
January 11th, 2007, 05:04 AM
I would beg to differ here Southern. The writers, execs etc don't create ship confusion deliberately that I can see. Half the time it's only to be found in some shippers minds! Sure, TPTB put in some sexual tension - between many of the characters, and this people can either squee over, denounce or ignore, but you think they deliberately write scenes to annoy and confuse shippers? Really? I thought they gave little morsels to followers of different pairings to keep them satisfied and to give everyone a little of what they wanted.
I think you overestimate the importance of romantic relationships between characters in Atlantis in TPTB's minds. I also think a lot of what shippers see is throught their shippy specs, and perhaps wasn't even intended the way some interpret a scene.
Quite a few writers have openly said they dislike ship, and I can well see why. What ever they do, people won't be happy.
You also want to save your hostility for TPTB? Why? Because they haven't promoted your ship recently? Or because they've deliberately left everything vague? Or perhaps in your eyes, promoted another? If they don't do what you want, you become hostile? TPTB don't do loads of stuff I want to see, and I whine, accept it and move on. Why should they do what I want? They have to cater for all the viewers.
You see, this is what I don't understand about shipping. Why can't people just be happy with the snippets they get, imagine the rest, and ignore anything they consider a betrayal to their own ship? TPTB have stated many times, as have the actors, that there will be no definitive ship in Atlants between the main characters. We all know that, so why is hostility needed towards TPTB?

Well, if I had a choice between hostility toward me and hostility toward TPTB, I'd choose them. Wouldn't you?;) We shippers are sensitive and rightly so considering what you just said. The hostility toward TPTB, at least from my viewpoint, is that they say one thing and do another. All shippers are unhappy with some things and happy with others. So why jerk us around? And as for saying there will be no ship, a lot of things have been said in a teasing way at conventions that just feed the shippers. Why not have the actors repeat the "no ship, no way ,no how" mantra if they really mean it? TPTB probably love stirring up conflict between all of us. They think if we're arguing, it's good publicity. Shows a lack of fan respect to me. Having a ship and wanting to see it happen is just as valid an opinion as having no ship. I have kept any talk of ship out of my posts in this thread yet here we go again accusing me of having certain opinions because I'm pouting about my ship. How insulting and predictable.

Linzi, I enjoyed your con report. Your true affection for the show, and Joe of course, comes out. You seem like someone I'd like to get to know. But can you please understand that just because we disagree on ship doesn't mean that everything I say is coming from that direction? That also goes for Ali and anyone else who always seems to take my posts too seriously. Let's not argue. Life's too short. *extends olive branch*

Linzi
January 11th, 2007, 05:09 AM
Re-watched last night.

Did anyone notice that Sheppard hits Ronon on his sore shoulder just before he gets in the shuttle?

It happens right after Ronon reminds him about fighting to the death. Sheppard locks his face shield, says he's looking forward to it, and taps Ronon on the shoulder. Ronon grits his teeth.

I saw that. I wasn't sure if it was deliberate or not. Ronon certainly didn't look too amused!



Atlantis has spent several years building the dynamic as described in your post. Echoes, Tao, the Ark, to name a few, got an extra umph (for me) because I love team interaction.

It's working.

My new year wish: the PTBs realize it has a great team and stop messing with it.

Oops, sorry. Wrong thread ... :cool:

Oh I couldn't agree more. Don't mess with the cast. It works really well how it is, and this episode illustrates that wonderfully in my eyes. I adore the team interaction too. It's all about this group of intrepid explorers and how they struggle with the things the Pegasus Galaxy throws at them. :)

Alipeeps
January 11th, 2007, 05:12 AM
That also goes for Ali and anyone else who always seems to take my posts too seriously. Let's not argue. Life's too short. *extends olive branch*

How'd I get dragged into this? I quoted a post of yours in one of mine and responded to some of the points you made. You haven't replied to that post or replied to any of my responses to you but I'm suddenly being told I take your posts too seriously?

I thought I was discussing the episode with you?

If you have some issues with something in my post, then by all means please respond fully to my post so that I know exactly what it is I said that you have a problem with.. it's a little unfair otherwise to include me in a sweeping generalisation without giving me opportunity to properly respond...

Why does it seem that every episode discussion thread at some point descends into the same old arguments?... :(

FoolishPleasure
January 11th, 2007, 05:14 AM
The writers, execs etc don't create ship confusion deliberately that I can see.
Aw, you aren't that naive. ;)


Quite a few writers have openly said they dislike ship, and I can well see why. What ever they do, people won't be happy.
Dig up Joe M's old thread. He said more than once that he was a shipper - in reference to Sam/Jack questions. He wanted to see them together. Joe will be the "Big Cheese" on SGA next season, so expect lots of ship.


You also want to save your hostility for TPTB? Why? Because they haven't promoted your ship recently? Or because they've deliberately left everything vague?
Its the vague aspect that has so many fans put off. One week there is Shep/Weir, next week we have Teyla/Ronon winking and blushing with each other, two weeks later Shep is admiring Teyla's latest tank top. The writers may not realize it, but this jerking around is ruining the show for many. I used to want one ship, but if TPTB went a different way, I may go with that, IF the writers stick with it, and do it right! But all the, "making everyone happy" doesn't allow characters to grow, and just pisses off part of the audience.


You see, this is what I don't understand about shipping. Why can't people just be happy with the snippets they get, imagine the rest, and ignore anything they consider a betrayal to their own ship?
I've finally reached this point. Fan fic rocks, and resolving ship turns the show into soap opera. I so wanted a certain ship to happen on BSG, and when it finally became canon this year it was so disappointing that I've reached the point where I don't care for either person anymore. All the "OMG, I love you so much!" ended up a let down, and I don't want to see SGA become "As the Stargate Turns".


TPTB have stated many times, as have the actors, that there will be no definitive ship in Atlants between the main characters. We all know that, so why is hostility needed towards TPTB?
Because TPTB say "no ship" sometimes, then make cryptic comments about this romo, or that pairing. Toss in actor comments at conventions about A loves B, or C loves A, and you know TPTB haven't given up on ship just yet.

Romantic relationships were done very well on Babylon 5, but our Stargate writers just aren't in the same league as JMS, so they would be better off to just drop the ship angles and come up with good adventures for our characters.

bluealien
January 11th, 2007, 05:36 AM
I just want to quickly comment on this before I get around to posting my comments on the ep (I have no intention of getting into this in that post).

Can I just request that this thread doesn’t become a ship war thread. Taa.



Well to be bluntly honest it was. And i think you know that.

I can see a few posters in this thread who were even in the last week bemoaning how “out of character” and “ridiculous” it was for Sheppard to rush into the quarantine tent in TRW to support Weir. To quote one recent poster in the TRW thread, “I can't see Sheppard being this reckless - yes he will fight for anyone he cares for but to just storm into the isolation unit with no idea of the consequenses is not in character for the military head of Atlantis.” Yet, this particular individual is apparently very happy with Sheppard’s rescue of Teyla. I wouldn’t mind seeing some consistency in people’s “arguments”, then all this arguing over “ship” would be minimised. *sigh* And honestly I have not seen anyone in this The Ark thread question whether or not Sheppard should have attempted to rescue Teyla. And in no way so far have the comments I’ve seen produced in this thread reached the unbelievably petty level of some of the ones I’ve read in the TRW thread (some sections of that thread are to be honest, very dissapointing). I have seen some posters here question the frequency of Sheppard’s rescues, not Teyla’s rescue per se. For all I know, in retrospect those same posters might be questioning Sheppard’s actions in TRW. Indeed, some people don’t even consider that a rescue. I’m pretty sure they’d all agree rescuing a team mate is in character for Sheppard. Now he just needs to go to bat for Beckett!! *all for some Beckett whumpage*



*disappointed with this fandom right now. Goes back to work*
Back to post my thoughts from the ep later when on a break.

Maybe you should back up your statements rather than saying some posters said this and some posters said that. Why dont you quote the posts you refer to rather than making vague statements. So this thread seems to be turning into a tit for tat is that what you are trying to imply - correct me if I'm wrong. The arguments about TRW have really nothing to do with the Ark - I found TWR to be completely boring purley because it was almost entirely focused on Weir and I'm not into one character focused eps - I even found Epiphany rather boring and Shep is my favourtie character. The science was rediculous IMO and all Shep had to do was to tell Weir to fight it - rather lame and it didnt really do anything for me. As to Shep risking his life - no one argues that he doesnt risk his life for his team - but in TRW Shep rushes in without knowing what the consequenses were - he didnt even know if his actions would do any good - he could have just suceeded in infecting himself as well so both of them would be dead, where was the logic in that. But very conveniently the little buggers didnt bother with him at all. Here in the Ark Shep knew exactly what he was letting himself in for - he knew that it was a suicide mission and he was willing even then to give his life up.

But what this argument is boiling down to is that its fine for Shep to put his life at risk when its Weir but when its Teyla its now suicidal tendancies and the usual Teyla bashing which suddenly occurs when she gets to share screentime with Shep. Some seem to consider the ep boring because it didnt have Weir - maybe to some if Weir is the only character you like but to me it was great because it featured all the other characters and had some great moments between ALL of them.

Linzi
January 11th, 2007, 05:48 AM
Well, if I had a choice between hostility toward me and hostility toward TPTB, I'd choose them. Wouldn't you?;) We shippers are sensitive and rightly so considering what you just said. The hostility toward TPTB, at least from my viewpoint, is that they say one thing and do another. All shippers are unhappy with some things and happy with others. So why jerk us around? And as for saying there will be no ship, a lot of things have been said in a teasing way at conventions that just feed the shippers. Why not have the actors repeat the "no ship, no way ,no how" mantra if they really mean it? TPTB probably love stirring up conflict between all of us. They think if we're arguing, it's good publicity. Shows a lack of fan respect to me. Having a ship and wanting to see it happen is just as valid an opinion as having no ship. I have kept any talk of ship out of my posts in this thread yet here we go again accusing me of having certain opinions because I'm pouting about my ship. How insulting and predictable.

Linzi, I enjoyed your con report. Your true affection for the show, and Joe of course, comes out. You seem like someone I'd like to get to know. But can you please understand that just because we disagree on ship doesn't mean that everything I say is coming from that direction? That also goes for Ali and anyone else who always seems to take my posts too seriously. Let's not argue. Life's too short. *extends olive branch*
Actually I wasn't arguing or disapproving about ship preferences, as I'm a non shipper. I was genuinely interested to know why you feel TPTB are trying to confuse and upset shippers, and why you felt hostile towards them because of it. I presume this episode sparked something in you that made you angry and frustrated, and I was and am interested to know what that was. If that makes sense?
I'm a non shipper, true, but I'm actually happy for shippers if they get what they want, unless it's thrust in front of my face, then I just switch off, because it's not what I want to see. What I don't like is the fighting about it all. It just seems so pointless.
I also don't see why you say TPTB say one thing and do another. There's no romantic stuff in The Ark that I can see, though, as I said, some can interpret it that way, same for TRW.
What I'm trying to say, and it's not coming out very well, as usual, is that there is no definitive ship here. There are lots of little ...hints, for want of a better word, in episodes generally, and yes, it's between different couples frequently. The Ark could've had a hint or Teyla/Shep I suppose at the end, same for TRW, for Sheppard/Weir, Tor for Weir/McKay, but none of it is canon. It's up to the individual to interpret it from their perspective. So what I was asking was why do you think TPTB are messing with shippers? This episode obviously hit a nerve, and disappointed you, and it showed in your post. I wonder why? I'm genuinely interested to know and understand.
I think it can be very difficult to portray friendship between a man and woman on screen without people thinking there are romantic undertones. For example: Sheppard holds a door open for Weir, and smiles. Some might think that's romantic and he did it because he loves her. Others might say he was being charming and polite. In The Ark, Sheppard risked his life to save Teyla, and then told her cheekily not to think she was special because of that. Was that shippy? Hell if I know. So, unless TPTB show a character going off into the sunset with another character, or saying 'You mean more to me that you should...' Ooops, quoting wrong show here...then everything is up in the air. TPTB have said so many times that nothing concrete will happen, and I can't see it has here.
What I mean is, boy am i getting long-winded, is that I can't see anything that is saying anything positively about a ship pairing in The Ark. So why, from your perspective, are the execs messing with shippers in this episode? Blimey, I could've saved myself RSI if I'd just asked that to start with!!!

To be honest, when I watch Atlantis, none of it is about ship to me. When I post here, none of it is about ship either. However, I do, and am entitled I think, to respond to posts I see here. If I see posts that are from a perspective which shows, to me, that the person is writing about it from a shippers perspective and I ask, 'would you feel the same way if what happened between another couple? I think not' I don't see that's being negative to shipping or shippers at all. It's stating my opinion on the situation.
When I asked whether some people would complain if the situation that happened between Shep and Teyla had happened between Shep and Weir, I don't see that as dragging ship into everything. It's a valid point about the episode and people's disappointment in certain areas of it.
In all fairness, Southern, many of your posts are about ship, or talk about shippy aspects of an episode you enjoy. There's nothing wrong with that at all. You have no reason to be ashamed of being an ardent shipper. If you think I look down on you because you are, you're wrong. I'm an obsessive whumper, and I don't care if people think that's cool or not, think I'm nuts...I know I am!!! I just enjoy myself. Each to his/her own.
As for my con report....hmmm, I didn't think it was very coherent personally, though you're right about my enthusiasm for the show and Joe, though that enthusiasm is for other characters and actors too. Okay, maybe not as much ;)
And as for knowing me? Well, hmmmm, I'm not sure my lack of coherency and fangirlie tendencies make me someone people would want to know, and as for my whumping preferences...hmmmm, best not to talk about that here...;)

Alipeeps
January 11th, 2007, 06:01 AM
Some seem to consider the ep boring because it didnt have Weir - maybe to some if Weir is the only character you like but to me it was great because it featured all the other characters and had some great moments between ALL of them.

I agree with you there. I make no secret that Sheppard is my favourite character but I don't watch the show solely for him and I enjoy all the characters... and these kind of team eps are the ones I really love where we see great interaction and great moments between all the various team members. Have to say also, I enjoyed what we did get of Weir in this ep - I particularly loved her little jibe to Sheppard about coming to the infirmary to get his head examined! :D Lovely little teasing, friendship moment there.. :)

Southern Red
January 11th, 2007, 06:09 AM
How'd I get dragged into this? I quoted a post of yours in one of mine and responded to some of the points you made. You haven't replied to that post or replied to any of my responses to you but I'm suddenly being told I take your posts too seriously?

I thought I was discussing the episode with you?

If you have some issues with something in my post, then by all means please respond fully to my post so that I know exactly what it is I said that you have a problem with.. it's a little unfair otherwise to include me in a sweeping generalisation without giving me opportunity to properly respond...

Why does it seem that every episode discussion thread at some point descends into the same old arguments?... :(

Okay, one at a time. Linzi, I have to leave soon for the dentist.:( So I'll get to your very thoughtful post later. Ali, I dragged you in because you express the same sentiment as Linzi to some extent and we have exchanged comments of this nature before. I wasn't referring to anything of yours specifically.

And on that last question. I was wondering the same thing? LOL.

Alipeeps
January 11th, 2007, 06:21 AM
Okay, one at a time. Linzi, I have to leave soon for the dentist.:( So I'll get to your very thoughtful post later. Ali, I dragged you in because you express the same sentiment as Linzi to some extent and we have exchanged comments of this nature before. I wasn't referring to anything of yours specifically.

And on that last question. I was wondering the same thing? LOL.

Ugh. Don't envy you a trip to the dentist. I hate em and never go unless I have to.

I would still ask though that unless you have something specific that I have said to respond to, then please don't include me in your generalised comments. You included me in a group of people who, I dunno, you seemed to feel were not responding fairly to your posts? (I'm not quite sure what you mean by "taking your posts too seriously?") and failing to quote any of my posts or mention specific points does not give me any opportunity to respond to what you are saying about me. The fact that I agree with some of Linzi's opinions or that you and I may have exchanged opinions in a thread months ago has no bearing on this discussion - unless there are specific things I posted that you want to respond to.

Linzi
January 11th, 2007, 06:24 AM
Aw, you aren't that naive. ;)
Well obviously I must be. Surely the execs don't have the time or can't be bothered to actually want to upset fans? I honestly believe that they try to put out a show that they like, that the network like and that they hope will garner good viewing figures. They also want the fans to like it too.



Dig up Joe M's old thread. He said more than once that he was a shipper - in reference to Sam/Jack questions. He wanted to see them together. Joe will be the "Big Cheese" on SGA next season, so expect lots of ship.


Well, I did know he was a Sam/Jack shipper. I don't see that necessarily means he'll do any great ship stuff on season 4 Atlantis. And don't forget he's a co-show runner, so his partner has influence too, same for BW and RCC.


Its the vague aspect that has so many fans put off. One week there is Shep/Weir, next week we have Teyla/Ronon winking and blushing with each other, two weeks later Shep is admiring Teyla's latest tank top. The writers may not realize it, but this jerking around is ruining the show for many. I used to want one ship, but if TPTB went a different way, I may go with that, IF the writers stick with it, and do it right! But all the, "making everyone happy" doesn't allow characters to grow, and just pisses off part of the audience.

You mean the vague aspect has put off many ship fans online? I don't see why it would put off regular non shipping viewers, as, like me, they either ignore any hints, or don't even see them.
Thing is, this so called jerking around, may put off ardent shippers, but I don't see that you can say it's put off many viewers. We don't even know how many regular viewers even think about ship. Don't forget the online fandom is a very small percentage of the viewing public. Online, in the fandom we over-analyse everything, and I genuinely believe those who view the show and don't get involved in the fandom just don't see the same things that we do, or obsesss about them either.




I've finally reached this point. Fan fic rocks, and resolving ship turns the show into soap opera. I so wanted a certain ship to happen on BSG, and when it finally became canon this year it was so disappointing that I've reached the point where I don't care for either person anymore. All the "OMG, I love you so much!" ended up a let down, and I don't want to see SGA become "As the Stargate Turns".

Well, if you've reached this point then the 'jerking around' shouldn't bother you hopefully? You've hit the nail on the head about the ship becoming canon. It does ruin it, generally. Certainly it did in Alias for me. What a let down. See, Joe F and TPTB are right. Sexual tension is great, the resolution of it ruins the show and leads to disappointment much of the time.



Because TPTB say "no ship" sometimes, then make cryptic comments about this romo, or that pairing. Toss in actor comments at conventions about A loves B, or C loves A, and you know TPTB haven't given up on ship just yet.

Romantic relationships were done very well on Babylon 5, but our Stargate writers just aren't in the same league as JMS, so they would be better off to just drop the ship angles and come up with good adventures for our characters.

Romantic relationships were extremely well done on B5, I'd agree. But, it was a very different show, and it was an ongoing serialised show, which SGA isn't. It was more about the relationships than Stargate has ever been, IMO. 'As the Stargate Turns'? Eeeeek! See, that's why I don't want canon ship, for anyone major on the show. I don't want to see McKay with Katie, Weir, Cadman or anyone either. It's not just Sheppard and Weir I don't want shipped. Also, in Sunday it's rumoured Weir gets a love interest I don't want to see that either. As you say, I want a good action scifi show. I think most of the time I get what I want, and I'm sorry if others don't get the same.

Linzi
January 11th, 2007, 06:42 AM
Ugh. Don't envy you a trip to the dentist. I hate em and never go unless I have to.

I would still ask though that unless you have something specific that I have said to respond to, then please don't include me in your generalised comments. You included me in a group of people who, I dunno, you seemed to feel were not responding fairly to your posts? (I'm not quite sure what you mean by "taking your posts too seriously?") and failing to quote any of my posts or mention specific points does not give me any opportunity to respond to what you are saying about me. The fact that I agree with some of Linzi's opinions or that you and I may have exchanged opinions in a thread months ago has no bearing on this discussion - unless there are specific things I posted that you want to respond to.
What an insult being grouped in the same lump as me! Poor Ali. Will you ever recover? I think some revels are needed, badly!!!
On a serious note, I agree that if you're going to include somebody's name in a post, you should refer to specific points and not generalise. It doesn't give the mentioned poster much to respond to.
What I did want to say about The Ark, is that I enjoyed all of the character interactions here. I don't mind who they're between, though obviously I favour scenes where my favourite character gets something cool to do. Like the shuttle crashing. Joe's face at the end of that scene really showed me that Sheppard thought he was going to die, and couldn't believe he'd survived. The relief was palpable. Those are the kinds of moments I adore. I think the Ark was a very exciting episode over all, and really tense. I do love old fashioned scifi, you know, with special effects, people getting tossed around, and dramatic spaceship crashes. But, I also loved the story here. I just found it really interesting. That's what I like. A good story with all the effects and character moments. I know I can't get that every episode. But, I sure am happy when I do. :)

nonniemous
January 11th, 2007, 06:48 AM
The problem with Sheppard is that he remains an unknown after all this time. We still do not know what drives him or his likes/dislikes. On SG1 we knew that O'neill had tragically lost his son, and that he had been tortured as a POW, so when Jack used his "dark side" the audience knew where it came from, and why. Wrestling with his inner demons was what made Jack so interesting. Shep has none of that going on, which is why a lot of fans are finding him stale, and seeing no true motivation for wanting to sacrifice himself all the time. It would be nice to find out something is eating away at him inside, causing all this separation anxiety, but I really don't think the writers even know who John Sheppard is.

Excellent point. I recall reading somewhere, though, that JF didn't want any kind of tragic, angsty backstory (or words to that effect) for Sheppard, that he didn't like characters with all those demons. So maybe the writers and JF are still trying to get on the same page concerning the character? They're writing him as if he has similar kinds of damage and trauma as O'Neill, but JF isn't playing him that way all the time? Which is too bad, considering just how well he played going over the edge in Phantoms.

I find his ability to go all "Dark Special Ops" (or whatever) really fascinating, coupled with his cocky "surfer/flyboy" attitude. :sheppardanime23: But maybe JF just wants us to believe it's part of Sheppard's character than the result of any traumatic past?

Relating it to The Ark, I didn't see his willingness to risk himself in order to save Teyla so much as his disdain for his own life compared to his team's, or a suicide wish. But it was, as one poster already pointed out and I'm sorry, I don't remember who or where, what a good leader is trained to do. He had an opportunity, however slim, to save someone under his command, so he took it. Then again, I tend to agree with those who've said his "suicidal tendencies" are more fanon than canon.

ToasterOnFire
January 11th, 2007, 07:29 AM
Overall I thought it was an okay ep. Nothing really horrid, but nothing to make it stand out either.

The good:

-Great sets and fantastic CGI! I also liked many of the camera shots, especially the ones that followed or led a character as they went through the base.

-McKay was just right this ep - some snark, some accidental stepping on toes, some irritation, but nothing really OTT. Hard to tell if that was intentional following ToR of if that's just the variation in how each writer writes him. His best scene was his panic before the window broke.

-Teyla was used well and really shone when she was arguing with Jamus right before he imprisoned her.

The bad:

-I had a hard time getting into the plot. The concept is interesting, but I don't feel like it was presented as well as it could have been. Something was missing to keep me from really caring about the two new characters and their plight. Things felt jumbled together too.

-I've never been a fan of the "Shep goes on a suicide mission to save everyone" plotline.

-One Weir scene with a handful of lines. This is the third episode in the second half of the season where this has happened. Granted the writers may see her as a Hammond sort of character and write her thusly, but Don S. Davis wasn't second on the billing credits either. If the A plots are regularly going to be about the team offworld, isn't is possible to add some B plots with Weir and Atlantis? Both are sorely underused.


-If the Snickers bar wrapper was indeed accidental, can one ask for advertisement compensation in retrospect? :D

Southern Red
January 11th, 2007, 08:47 AM
Ugh. Don't envy you a trip to the dentist. I hate em and never go unless I have to.

I would still ask though that unless you have something specific that I have said to respond to, then please don't include me in your generalised comments. You included me in a group of people who, I dunno, you seemed to feel were not responding fairly to your posts? (I'm not quite sure what you mean by "taking your posts too seriously?") and failing to quote any of my posts or mention specific points does not give me any opportunity to respond to what you are saying about me. The fact that I agree with some of Linzi's opinions or that you and I may have exchanged opinions in a thread months ago has no bearing on this discussion - unless there are specific things I posted that you want to respond to.

Not to worry. It was just a 6 month checkup. All was good, and now my pearly whites are both pearly and white. :D

I guess addressing you randomly struck a nerve, huh? Sorry. Won't happen again.


Actually I wasn't arguing or disapproving about ship preferences, as I'm a non shipper. I was genuinely interested to know why you feel TPTB are trying to confuse and upset shippers, and why you felt hostile towards them because of it. I presume this episode sparked something in you that made you angry and frustrated, and I was and am interested to know what that was. If that makes sense?

Makes sense. I'm hostile in general because my ship isn't canon. I thought that was a given. ;) Not afraid to admit it.

I'm a non shipper, true, but I'm actually happy for shippers if they get what they want, unless it's thrust in front of my face, then I just switch off, because it's not what I want to see. What I don't like is the fighting about it all. It just seems so pointless.
I also don't see why you say TPTB say one thing and do another. There's no romantic stuff in The Ark that I can see, though, as I said, some can interpret it that way, same for TRW.

I didn't see anything romantic in The Ark either. Every episode is up to interpretation. I just interpret it my way and don't see why I can't express my disappointment.

What I'm trying to say, and it's not coming out very well, as usual, is that there is no definitive ship here. There are lots of little ...hints, for want of a better word, in episodes generally, and yes, it's between different couples frequently. The Ark could've had a hint or Teyla/Shep I suppose at the end, same for TRW, for Sheppard/Weir, Tor for Weir/McKay, but none of it is canon. It's up to the individual to interpret it from their perspective.

You are expressing yourself very well and are exactly right. We all do interpret things differently. And I see that as an okay thing. You're a whumper which I will never understand no matter how it's explained. Have fun with it if it floats your boat. I'm a S/W shipper, a hopeless romantic and more narrowminded about it than most. That's just me.

So what I was asking was why do you think TPTB are messing with shippers? This episode obviously hit a nerve, and disappointed you, and it showed in your post. I wonder why? I'm genuinely interested to know and understand.

It wasn't just this episode. But lately on LJ and in the S/W thread there has been talk of all the times this season when the main two het ships have gotten equal treatment to the point of absurdity. e.g. in Sateda and TRW Shep touches Teyla's hand and then Elizabeth's in Phantoms and Echoes he carries Teyla and then Elizabeth and the list goes on. Don't you find that to be done on purpose? Maybe as a non-shipper, you don't. That sort of c*** is what annoys shippers to no end. They think they are giving us something for everybody, but what they end up doing is making everybody unhappy.

I think it can be very difficult to portray friendship between a man and woman on screen without people thinking there are romantic undertones. For example: Sheppard holds a door open for Weir, and smiles. Some might think that's romantic and he did it because he loves her. Others might say he was being charming and polite. In The Ark, Sheppard risked his life to save Teyla, and then told her cheekily not to think she was special because of that. Was that shippy? Hell if I know. So, unless TPTB show a character going off into the sunset with another character, or saying 'You mean more to me that you should...' Ooops, quoting wrong show here...then everything is up in the air. TPTB have said so many times that nothing concrete will happen, and I can't see it has here.
What I mean is, boy am i getting long-winded, is that I can't see anything that is saying anything positively about a ship pairing in The Ark. So why, from your perspective, are the execs messing with shippers in this episode? Blimey, I could've saved myself RSI if I'd just asked that to start with!!!

Again, not referring just to Ark, but even as a S/W shipper I see that the last scene could be shippy if you're a shipper. You're not a shipper so it's not shippy to you. Confused more? LOL. And I agree and have said so on my shipper thread, there has never been any concrete canon ship moment after the cave scene with Shep and Teyla. We admit that they intended that ship from day one, but those of us who ship Sparky want them to change their minds because we see much more chemistry between Shep and Weir. That's the bottom line. It's not what is concrete. It's what we want. Shippers correct me if I misinterpret. In my case, I am a chronic overanalyzer. I know good and dang well that when Shep looks at Weir and raises his eyebrow that no ship was intended, but it's just so much fun to imagine there was. Also shippers tend not to believe what TPTB say about not intending ship. I hear that Chris Carter *curses* said the same thing about Mulder and Scully as did the actors. It's all PR and hype. Remember when Joe kissed Torri at ComicCon? You'll never convince me that wasn't a PR move probably thought up by those evil twins JM and PM who were bookending them at the time. ;) But when you love a ship and think the show would be better for it, it gets frustrating to see another one dangled. Even if it can be interpreted as friendship only. Personally I see John and Teyla as having a Zoe/Mal from Firefly sort of vibe. Boy, that probably made things worse.

To be honest, when I watch Atlantis, none of it is about ship to me. When I post here, none of it is about ship either. However, I do, and am entitled I think, to respond to posts I see here. If I see posts that are from a perspective which shows, to me, that the person is writing about it from a shippers perspective and I ask, 'would you feel the same way if what happened between another couple? I think not' I don't see that's being negative to shipping or shippers at all. It's stating my opinion on the situation.
When I asked whether some people would complain if the situation that happened between Shep and Teyla had happened between Shep and Weir, I don't see that as dragging ship into everything. It's a valid point about the episode and people's disappointment in certain areas of it.

You're right of course. I didn't look at it that way. My shipper glasses must need adjusting. Or removing. And if this episode had replaced Teyla with Elizabeth, I'd be singing its praises. How's that for honesty? On the other hand, I refer you to TRW where some are still arguing about how John would have done it for anyone and the team looked bored and didn't care if she lived or died. I paraphrase and put my own spin on it, but that's the main thought.

In all fairness, Southern, many of your posts are about ship, or talk about shippy aspects of an episode you enjoy. There's nothing wrong with that at all. You have no reason to be ashamed of being an ardent shipper.

Now hear this. My name is Southern Red and I'm a John/Elizabeth shipper and proud of it. Can I get a bumper sticker?

If you think I look down on you because you are, you're wrong. I'm an obsessive whumper, and I don't care if people think that's cool or not, think I'm nuts...I know I am!!! I just enjoy myself.

Thanks. Whump away. He does look awfully good down in the dirt.Each to his/her own.

As for my con report....hmmm, I didn't think it was very coherent personally, though you're right about my enthusiasm for the show and Joe, though that enthusiasm is for other characters and actors too. Okay, maybe not as much ;)
And as for knowing me? Well, hmmmm, I'm not sure my lack of coherency and fangirlie tendencies make me someone people would want to know, and as for my whumping preferences...hmmmm, best not to talk about that here...;)

Your enthusiasm and restraint were appreciated in equal measures. Being a fangirl is one of life's little joys. Thanks for the conversation.

Trialia
January 11th, 2007, 08:58 AM
SR -- slightly OT for this thread but since I can't green you AGAIN, I've gotta say it -- your use of the Zoe/Mal dynamic in your comparison is almost perfect for how I see the Teyla/John relationship, and it's for precisely the same reasons that I can't 'ship either pair romantically. I 'ship a great many pairings in both Firefly and SGA fandoms, but those two are not among them.

TBH, I'd rather be yanked around than see a 'ship I consider incestuous become canon romance, but I'm not going to jump on anybody's back in fandom about that. Not my way, generally.

As I've already said about this episode -- lack of Elizabeth made me instantly irritated with it. As second-billed on the credits Torri shouldn't be playing with the equivalent airtime of General Hammond, and let's face it, Elizabeth's a lot prettier to look at than George (no offence to DD, of course)... the more she is in an episode the more interest I will have in it, it's as simple as that. Yes, I love all the other main characters bar one, but I've got to have something that will actually make me GET interested in an episode.

Chailyn
January 11th, 2007, 09:12 AM
Well, I try to stay spoiler-free before these things, so I haven't read through all these posts yet. That said, I didn't really like it. :(

However, to be fair, I really hate the 'Oh look! An entire civilization stored away like leftovers! Whatever should we do????' plots on any series. Just going by the title, and avoiding all spoilers, I thought The Ark was going to be something like an ark of knowledge that the team finds or some type of weapon for the team to use against their enemies. I was expecting some type of treasure hunt for it like in the Brotherhood and some form of Ancient connection. I also pictured rainforests...maybe a desert. Maybe I was expecting too much. :p

That said...

The Good (because there is always good)

1. We got more Lorne! :D Ah, it was so good to see him again, and he had more than two lines that didn't involve 'yes, sir', 'no, sir'. Can we please have Lorne on cast? Pretty please?

2. I liked the use of blowtorches. Both Sheppard and Lorne should use them repeatedly. Amen.

3. I loved Rodney. I always love Rodney, but I really loved him here. He was like a kid on Christmas at the beginning, which surprised me considering the technology wasn't that advanced. It just shows that Rodney truely has a love for space advancement, including the history of it. The team was not impressed. Poor Rodney.

4. The only moment of suspense for me was when that piece of debris hit the glass. By God! That cracking sound! Okay, it brought forward all those falling through ice nightmares. No matter how many times someone uses that effect, it will always give me the creeps, so bravo! :)

5. Just a small thing--I liked that Weir was sitting on Teyla's bed with her. Her body language with Teyla was so casual and comfortable that I could almost say they are friends. Great job, Torri, for getting the most out of your scene. I really would like more Teyla/Weir interaction. For God's sake, they're two women almost completely surrounded by men for the last three years. They don't have to be BFF, but come on...


The Bad

1. After reading through some of the early posts here I learned that Sheppard was supposed to be on a suicide mission. :ronananime25: Okay, I didn't get that at all. And here's why: No one seemed to care! Egads! No, I take part of that back. Rodney cared. He asked Sheppard not to go do it. Everyone else??? Carson just helped Sheppard suit up, and Ronon grunted and promised to fight him to the death later. Even when Ronon thought he was a goner he hugged people! Ronon! Now, he's acting like Sheppard goes off to die everyday (well maybe he does). What would have really made the scene important--give Sheppard a heart-to-heart with Lorne in much the same way that Rodney did with Zelenka, a passing of the torch. "Watch over my people." Final command. A salute. Lorne was actually in this episode. The actor was getting paid anyway. Why not give the scene some meat? That would have made me care about what Sheppard was going to do and left no questions.

2. It may make me a bad person, but, as a viewer, I didn't care about the stored civilization. Why? you ask. Because I didn't know anything about them. We only met two members of that race and now they're both dead. We will probably never see these people again. We didn't even see them after we saved them.

3. I hated that Teyla had her gun taken off her. This should not have happened. We've seen Teyla take down armed Wraith, yet she couldn't take out an injured, old man. Every time he turned to look down at the control panel, I was expecting Teyla to react. I get that it was needed for the plot, but Teyla was uncharacteristically weak here. Maybe Rodney could have a gun taken from him, but not Teyla. :teyla15:

4. The final scene. Sheppard almost kills himself and Teyla could've been lost and again I didn't feel like anyone cared. It was too light and joke-filled at the end. We know that this cast can show concern for each other. Ronon in Sateda. Rodney in Tao. Weir in TRW. Sheppard in CG. But for Teyla? What happened here? And Teyla, the person trapped in that thing, barely said anything while Sheppard, Weir, and Carson talked over her. Okay, Carson seemed to care. He was a sweetheart. :) I also didn't like that Sheppard turned his back on her while joking. It felt too casual. Just another day at the job. Maybe that was the point? I'm not a Teyla fan, but I felt bad for her here. At the end, she was sitting by herself. Everyone just took off. Where was Ronon? He should've been in this scene too with that shoulder. :(

5. The set design and lighting. This is a pet peeve for me, so feel free to ignore it, but I hate when a show is so dark visually. I want to see everything so this bugged.

6. Sorry, thought of something else. At one point, Teyla promises the old man that they won't leave his people behind and makes Rodney lie with her, and then two minutes later she tells him "no promises". ????? Was this a goof, or did I miss something?

Anyway, just my opinion. It wasn't dreadful, and had some good points, but the pacing was weird. It was a little boring, but it was okay as a filler ep, I guess. I don't know if I'd watch it again. Well, it had Lorne, so maybe I will. :D

grashoper
January 11th, 2007, 09:14 AM
edit

psychofilly
January 11th, 2007, 09:45 AM
Finally got a chance to sit down and watch it last night.

My verdict? I liked it. Where some saw "cliche" I saw a solid use of classic Sci-fi convention. It was nice to see the team (or well, Rodney) exploring for explorations sake and of course everything will go wrong from there.

I liked the change of scenery, and thought the camera work was quite excellent in places, and they made good use of the different set.

As for the characters, Ronon/Moma manages to squeeze maximum characterization from each and every scene. He's shown amazing growth and depth as he's "settled in" and he hasn't had a focused ep since Sateda. I really liked his setting his own shoulder (which I found to be in character as opposed to cliche) and being comfortable enough with Shep to admit to claustrophobia.

Terla/Luttrel got more than one scene! Yay PTB's! Teyla is not my favorite character, but she's a good one, and I like seeing her perspective and patiently await an episode more focused on her. She works best for me when she's wrangling with Pegasus Galaxy issues, bridging their perspective to ours.

Rodney/Hewlett-- how are you so awesome? This really has been Hewlett's year. Love him or hate him, he's believably brought the character so so far since the show started without throwing him out of his original characterization. He's still overly excitable (the universe is his pinata) sarcastic (his how much we are screwed reports) and clueless (His conversation with Teyla about Jamus).

But Hewlett has softened him up on the inside and I really liked how Rodney had to ask Shep not to risk himself, even though he knew Shep would do it anyway, and how he has internalized the best of Shep's philosophy in stating that they didn't leave their people behind. It feels like whatever lingering insecurities and differences that set him apart from the other three were resolved in Tao, and they are now his as much as he has become theirs-- even if Shep refuses to admit it. Rodney's doom and gloom is simply who he is and how he processes situations, and it seems like his team totally gets that about him. There is so much more, but most of it has been stated rather well already. So let's just say, I agree in general with the positive statements already made about him. I think they have continued to maintain a good Rodney vs everyone else balance this year.

And then Sheppard. Joe did a great job this episode. In the end, he conveyed a lot about what he was feeling riding that ship down without saying a word. I thought his actions were quite consistant with what we do know about Sheppard. I don't think he's suicidal, but I do think there is something there. He takes an awful lot of near suicidal risks. He usually has darn good reasons, but this was the first time, I felt like we got to see the aftermath inside Sheppard. He was pretty visibly shaken even though he survived. Of course as always, it was back to joking at the end but in this case, it was more of a coverup for John's blatant affection for Teyla (as adopted family and team member) than a brush off of the issue, so I was cool with it.

But that does make me tend to agree with the posters that are clamouring for more back story. It doesn't have to be uber angsty, but we know he has MASSIVE problems with authority and tends to do what he sees as right in the moment, and forge ahead without weighing any other options. It's gotten him in trouble in the past, and while in Atlantis, but I personally would like to have more backstory on why that is and exactly what happened in Afghanistan. (His POV in Phantoms was unreliable at best). We've also had some hints dropped about a father (that's not fanon, right?) I'd like to meet him.

I did like that Shep and Mckay were not paired off the entire episode. They are my favorite pairing (either as friends or a big squishy rainbow of gay love) but they both play so well off the other actors on the show. Shep and Ronon were fun. And while I am glad thet Rachell got something to do, I really wish the PTB's would give us an episode with Rodney and Teyla having to interact. He was quite lovely with her in Tao, and I think they have an interesting dynamic in the feild when they are shown together. Yay for mixing it up, and Yay for Lorne!

I don't really have an opinion on the shippy stuff. I like all the pairings, and will read/watch just about any pairing if the story is good. Plus I know my favorite one is never going to see the light of day because it will be a freezing day in Hades before they pair up the two male leads... which kinda takes the shipper pressure off. I can completely enjoy the show in a gen noromo sort of way, and indulge in 32 flavors and then some of shippery goodness online. As long as they don't deconstruct the main character friendships beyond all hope without repairing them afterwards (I'm looking right at you, Joss Whedon) then I'm good.

Elinor
January 11th, 2007, 12:19 PM
Well, that was an enjoyable episode. It had a different feel to it than other productions this season and I love that the show is doing this. It was great to see new sets and...again...I loved that all the team were involved in the action.


And I love that Sheppard deflected the moment with a slightly snarky comment.. because that's what these guys do. They have a close friendship but they don't discuss emotions and icky stuff like that... ;) It all goes unsaid and it's what they don't say that is wonderful....



Oh definitely yes...couldn't have worded it better. Those two just completely do the 'you're my bestest friend ever in the whooooole world...and I won't put it into words' thing every time. I love it! One day...just one day...Rodney is going to call Shep John. I am really looking forward to that moment. (I'm sure it will involve a 'near death' Shep...but that's OK...'cos I love a bit/lot of Shep whump I do!!!)


Did anyone notice that Sheppard hits Ronon on his sore shoulder just before he gets in the shuttle?

It happens right after Ronon reminds him about fighting to the death. Sheppard locks his face shield, says he's looking forward to it, and taps Ronon on the shoulder. Ronon grits his teeth.

Funny.




I know...that made me splorf out loud!!

Just one other thing to add. Seeing Shep using tools (ie. blowtorch, eye protection etc.)....oh my...it just makes me want to run out and buy him a toolbelt!!!

http://www.clicksmilies.com/s1106/lachen/laughing-smiley-002.gif

Pegasus_SGA
January 11th, 2007, 12:27 PM
Exactly. Which is why commanding officers are not allowed to become romantically involved with someone on their team or under their command.

Still playing catch up, sorry in advance if you've answered this. I disagree with you on this, in the Forces, spouses, girlfriends and boyfriends aren't usually allowed in the same unit but Teyla is none of those things, imo. She is therefore not bound by any military legislation. Personally I don't see the ship in Atlantis, but it doesn't mean that others don't. You just have to read the episodes threads to see that people view the episodes differently. I did love the infirmary scene though, that was really sweet :)


I think that Sheppard still doesn't trust McKay so he will never go out of his way to play suicide guy for McKay

I disagree. Sheppard would do anything for anyone, he already said he would in Sateda. His team are his family, if I remember right, he said, "I'd do anything for anyone of you." Doesn't that say that he would do the same for McKay? I'm curious why you would think he sees mcKay differently from Teyla and Ronon.


O'Neill had respect but I find Sheppard lacks that.

It's just down to leadership style, imo. The most important aspect on leadership is respect, if your team don't respect you, THEN you have a problem. Everything i've seen says they trust Sheppard. If they didn't they would have gone their own way a long time ago. Respect isn't just given, it's earned and Sheppard has earned the trust in his team.


I miss season one Sheppard. He had so much potential but it is just wasted now. :(

http://i134.photobucket.com/albums/q119/Scully_album/console-1.gif


the suicide!Shep routine is getting a bit much. Can we finish the season without any more touchy feely scenes.

I don't remember many suicide missions. But given the team's penchance for getting into trouble, lol, there are times when this will occur. Would you say the same thing abouto a black ops/special forces team? The reason we have the bonding thing is because the fans requested it. We moaned and griped at the lack of bonding between the characters and now we have it...do you not want it? or do you just want it toned down a notch?


Teyla, seriously, tone it down. You are in danger of bursting a major vessel with these emotional rants.

I didn't think she was emotional., she was trying to implore Jamus to end the drastic situation that he had put her in. She tried to reason with him and became passionate about what she was saying. Would he have believed her if her attitude/demenour came across as not giving a damn?


I have to add my voice to those who protested the lack of Elizabeth. And in no way IMHO is she to be compared to General Hammond. Good grief! What a copout by the writers!

Her job is the leader of the Atlantis expedition though, how often do you see CEO's going off on field trips? When her expertise is d she will go off world (see Progeny).


First, The Good:

4. Rodney is ever slowly learning to play the game. A good balance of character interaction for John and Rodney.

Hehehe, I agree. I think sometimes people expect McKay to just change overnight, but as he said in TOR, he doesn't know how to relax, or be himself... it was something along those lines, lol. So he is learning gradually and gradual is more believeable than an overnight transformation. He's learning to trust and open up, big steps for him.


Now, the problems:

1. The first twenty minutes? Too similar to "Lifeboat".

The only similarity I saw was that the ship was a lifeboat, lol. I don't mean to sound critical (and it's not directed at anyone specific here) but why do people compare this to SG1, it's not SG1. Once we stop comparing it to SG1, maybe people might enjoy it a bit more...


He started out almost tragic and much more interesting.

In what way did you find him interesting in the beginning? Because he was a bit of a rebel? I think his character has grown. I agree we need to know what makes him tick though, and maybe that would help people understand his character more (from a viewers pov)? Didn't I read somewhere TPTB were trying to find a story that would weave Sheppard's past into a storyline?


I hate comparing SGA to SG-1

I agree with you, I don't like it either.


I maintain that they made the season absolutely phenomenal when the year started so I hope that, as we crawl closer to some character reflection, major angst, and a big, booming finale, we pick up some of the wind lost from our sails. :cool:

I'm with you on that :D, but I disagree with you that something has got lost a little. Some eps were dissapointing, but overall its been a fantastic s3.


I don't get the comparisons to Life Boat either and I watch the show for all the characters not just one so I wont dismiss any episode just because it didnt have a particular character.

I agree with you a trillion percent :) I watch it for the whole team, not just my favourite character. I would be disappointed though if my favourite character wasn't in it...i'd be lying if I said it wouldn't bother me, but i'm with you on this.


Wonderful episode - great writing - great action - the Shuttle scene was amazing. Defininitely one of my favourite eps of the season.

I only cut your post because I agree with everything you said :D


I still maintain it is a very different situation to take a split second decision to put yourself in harm's way to save another than it is to evaluate your options (yes, they were short on time but it was not a "act now, right this second" decision).

I agree a decision we make in the heat of the moment may be different from one we make giving it some careful thought. As I said before, we've had the luxury to think about this for a long time, and 20/20 hindsight is a wonderful thing, lol. Maybe if he thinks about his choices after the fact, I wonder if he did ever regret them? That would be an intersting thing to explore, and I know it was done to a degree with Sumner. So we know that he does think about his actions.


he has only ever taken that decision to sacrifice himself (in the knowledge of certain or almost certain death) on 3 occasions (and one of those wasn't real!) - Siege, Progeny and The Ark - and in the case of the first two he did so to protect/save all of Atlantis AND all of Earth.


I agree :)



TPTB can't win can they? They responded to complaints from Season 2 etc that we weren't getting to see the kind of bonding and close team relationship people saw on SG1 and they promised to deal with that in Season 3... they have done... and now people are complaining that there's too much "touchy feely scenes"! :p


ROFL, I said the same thing, but you got in before me. You're like speedy gonzalos, lol



Poor old Teyla can't seem to win either - everyone is always saying she is underwritten and doesn't get enough to do... but when we get an ep where she does have something to do and a decent amount of dialogue, she gets.. well, I'm not sure what you're saying here.. that she overdid it? That she was over-emotional?


You know it would've just been quicker if i'd agreed to your whole post, lol.


"extreme violence". I agree that his actions in Siege I were dark and they were supposed to be, but I don't see that they make him a character with a tendency towards extreme violence? And The Eye? He is a trained soldier who was defending his home and his people against an aggressive invading force - who had no compunctions about killing his people. D'you think Sumner would have done any different if he'd still been in command? D'you think Lorne would have acted differently?

I agree Alipeeps, I don't think Sheppard si extreemly violent, I think i've only ever seen his dark side maybe three times? I like that side of him tbh, it gives him an extra dimension to his character, and would like to see his darker side more often...*thunks at the thought of evil Sheppard *g* * When you're up against an enemy, sometimes its a case of kill or be killed in a combat situation. And he does what's necessary. I think though everyone has got a dark side, that's human nature, but I wouldn't class his as overly excessive.



I have no problem with him doing it for anyone. But one time I'd like to see him sit down and talk it out with another character is all.

He has done that in the past though, look at Condemned, Common ground, Underground. As he has said, he's naturally lazy, and if he doesn't have to fight he won't, but there are occasions when it becomes necessary to fight.


The Teyla talk in Sateda affirmed it, but my question is why? He finally has a family he cares so much about and would die for, but why is his own life so invaluable to him?

I think you hit the nail on the head there, he finally has a family, and I would give up my life for my family. In all honesty, I don't think he has a death wish, maybe now that he has a family he just doesn't want to lose them? Or maybe he is as you say insecure to some degree like Rodney, and doesn't know his own self-worth? But it would be interesting to know why he feels like that, I agree.


I want some of that darkness and complexity back. But it's for the Sheppard thread.

lol, see you over there then *g*, but yep I agree with you on this.


Poor PTB - they really can't win with some viewers, can they? :( People ask for more team friendship, more bonding, then when we get it, it's suddenly too much, too OTT.

Lol, you can please some of the people some of the time, but I won't hold my breath on waiting for the fandom to agree on everything, lol.


She's freqently overemotional. Just my opinion, of course. Yelling in people's faces seems to be one of the few ways they can think how to write her.

I don't think she is, I can count on maybe one hand where she's emotional, and that's when it's been warranted. So i'd hardly call that frequently. She wasn't yelling at Jamus, she was trying to reason with him, and don't forget there was noise from the blow torch which is why it may have appeared she was yelling...although i'll be honest, I have no clue how much noise a blow torch makes against metal, lol.


Re-watched last night.

Did anyone notice that Sheppard hits Ronon on his sore shoulder just before he gets in the shuttle? My new year wish: the PTBs realize it has a great team and stop messing with it.

Oops, sorry. Wrong thread ... :cool:

ROFL, I agree with you completely :D


Don't forget Intruder, or No Man's Land, or even The Tower, when he did that ultimate sacrifice for the team by sleeping with a teenager. ;)

Do you really want to go there? If you do, open a thread and i'll be right there. :D



Because TPTB are focusing only on Shep and HIS bonding with the team. Where is the bonding between everyone else?


Well we had Sateda (Ronon), ToR (McKay), M&MM (team bonding)...shall I go on?


We still do not know what drives him or his likes/dislikes.

I understand what drives him, but seeing why he is driven would be an interesting concept, I agree with you on this.

*note to self - learn to curb your enthusiasm or play more often*

RoryJ
January 11th, 2007, 12:29 PM
But what this argument is boiling down to is that its fine for Shep to put his life at risk when its Weir but when its Teyla its now suicidal tendancies and the usual Teyla bashing which suddenly occurs when she gets to share screentime with Shep. Some seem to consider the ep boring because it didnt have Weir - maybe to some if Weir is the only character you like but to me it was great because it featured all the other characters and had some great moments between ALL of them.

Hey, I was just as concerned for Shep's lack of respect for his own life in TRW as I was in The Ark. It doesn't have to stop, I just want it to be directly addressed one day and to maybe see an ep where the team has to do something like that for him. We've gotten glimpses, but I want more to level the playing field for our boy. ;)

As for "Teyla just can't win"; she's my second favorite character on the series. And if more screentime means just giving her a grandiose speech, then I say no, she CAN'T win. Give the gal an episode, please! Give her a Sateda, or a TRW, or a Tao of Rodney, or a Common Ground. Echoes was close, but in the second half she was already down for the count. She had The Gift back in season one, and she nailed it! It was one of my favorite episodes of the series. But now she seems overshadowed by the amount of development other characters have gotten, and I don't want her character to stagnate.

As for the Weir stuff, someone said that the first half indeed had much more of her. I only ask for season four that it gets spread out more, that's all. I think the first half spoiled me, because I've felt the second half be a little bit empty. Still great, because I do enjoy all the characters, but it's easier when TPTB spread the love. ;) We're nearing the end of the season though, so it probably won't even be an issue any more, since things are going to start looking back inward at Atlantis and the dangers the city faces. So time will tell.

SallyLizzie
January 11th, 2007, 12:42 PM
I disagree with you on this, in the Forces, spouses, girlfriends and boyfriends aren't usually allowed in the same unit but Teyla is none of those things, imo. She is therefore not bound by any military legislationTeyla isn't, but Sheppard is (even if he does like to bend the rules a little now and then ;)). So technically, Sheppard is not allowed to have a personal relationship with anyone under his command or who is part of his team, which Teyla is. As I understand it, should she move to a different team or become his CO, then there wouldn't be problem (the latter being due to a lack of military legislation there, as a civilian commanding over an officer is a rare occurance).

However, this is SGA, a show which doesn't exactly adhere to RL rules and regs (see: Shep!hair :D) so who knows what could happen? :)

Pegasus_SGA
January 11th, 2007, 12:47 PM
Teyla isn't, but Sheppard is (even if he does like to bend the rules a little now and then ;)). So technically, Sheppard is not allowed to have a personal relationship with anyone under his command or who is part of his team, which Teyla is. As I understand it, should she move to a different team or become his CO, then there wouldn't be problem (the latter being due to a lack of military legislation there, as a civilian commanding over an officer is a rare occurance).

However, this is SGA, a show which doesn't exactly adhere to RL rules and regs (see: Shep!hair :D) so who knows what could happen? :)

I understand what you're saying, but given that the...what's the word..uniqueness of the team, lol, I don't think the military would be too bothered by it as she is not in his chain of command :) But enough about that little trivia, lol lets discuss hair *g* or do we have to go to the thunk thread for that :D And I wouldn't change a hair on his head, lol..

RoryJ
January 11th, 2007, 12:51 PM
I don't remember many suicide missions. But given the team's penchance for getting into trouble, lol, there are times when this will occur. Would you say the same thing abouto a black ops/special forces team? The reason we have the bonding thing is because the fans requested it. We moaned and griped at the lack of bonding between the characters and now we have it...do you not want it? or do you just want it toned down a notch?

Ah, but the job of a blackops/SF team is still to get the hell out alive and report your intel. Death really, truly is not preferable. ;)



The only similarity I saw was that the ship was a lifeboat, lol. I don't mean to sound critical (and it's not directed at anyone specific here) but why do people compare this to SG1, it's not SG1. Once we stop comparing it to SG1, maybe people might enjoy it a bit more...

I know, and I'm usually the one refusing to compare the two shows. But I just felt like it when I was watching for the first half. It was nagging at me. Bleh. In the end, they were pretty different, but they almost lost a viewer at first because I much rather would have liked seeing Daniel and Frasier argue. :cool:




In what way did you find him interesting in the beginning? Because he was a bit of a rebel? I think his character has grown. I agree we need to know what makes him tick though, and maybe that would help people understand his character more (from a viewers pov)? Didn't I read somewhere TPTB were trying to find a story that would weave Sheppard's past into a storyline?

The rebel thing yes, and the awkwardness and quick shift into sniper mode. I just want the darkness back, is all. Phantoms came close with backstory. More of what makes him tick, I agree!



I'm with you on that :D, but I disagree with you that something has got lost a little. Some eps were dissapointing, but overall its been a fantastic s3.

Hey, I'm still loving it! Constructive criticism is always needed, though. ;)



I agree Alipeeps, I don't think Sheppard si extreemly violent, I think i've only ever seen his dark side maybe three times? I like that side of him tbh, it gives him an extra dimension to his character, and would like to see his darker side more often...*thunks at the thought of evil Sheppard *g*

I think we clarified a few pages back that "surprising violence" was a much better phrase than "extreme violence". My fault. But that side of him was very interesting to me and I hope we get to see it again, along with the reactions from the others. Sometimes they seem as lulled by his laid-back demeanor as the viewers are, so it's very jarring when he shifts. But he hasn't done that in a while. I don't want TPTB to forget that aspect that made his character such a fun case-study.


Or maybe he is as you say insecure to some degree like Rodney, and doesn't know his own self-worth? But it would be interesting to know why he feels like that, I agree.


And you just hit the nail on the head for me. ;)

Falcon Horus
January 11th, 2007, 01:09 PM
Okay, finally after a frelling long wait (no comment from any sci-fi-watching human being please, thank you) I finally got to see The Ark...

And oh boy... I really can't say I was impressed. It wasn't boring but it wasn't really good either.

There were a few wonderful moments:
- the breaking of the glass and McKay's oh so familiar I'm-going-to-die-face
- Ronon setting his shoulder and John's reaction
- Teyla having something to do, I thought that was a pretty good speech. Too bad the dude didn't fall for it. And yes, she seemed to be a bit weak. She could have taken the gun from him, not sure if she had gotten away unscathed though.
- I loved the last scene in the infirmary with Elizabeth sitting on the bed, instead of standing next to it. I felt like there was genuine concern for a friend. Even loved John's tidbit at the end. (and I'm no John/Teyla-shipper)

But over-all, it was yet another disappointing episode for me. I really hope the last four will do better.

Pegasus_SGA
January 11th, 2007, 02:08 PM
The Good (because there is always good)

2. I liked the use of blowtorches. Both Sheppard and Lorne should use them repeatedly. Amen.

3. I loved Rodney. I always love Rodney, but I really loved him here. He was like a kid on Christmas at the beginning, which surprised me considering the technology wasn't that advanced. It just shows that Rodney truely has a love for space advancement, including the history of it. The team was not impressed. Poor Rodney.

5. Just a small thing--I liked that Weir was sitting on Teyla's bed with her. They don't have to be BFF, but come on...

Hehehe Amen to the blow torches, lol. They are just hot! The men using them, lol, not the actual blow torch....just in case people thought I was having a fan girl moment over the tools. :D




The Bad

Sheppard was supposed to be on a suicide mission. :ronananime25: Okay, I didn't get that at all. And here's why: No one seemed to care! Egads! No, I take part of that back. Rodney cared. He asked Sheppard not to go do it. Everyone else??? Carson just helped Sheppard suit up, and Ronon grunted and promised to fight him to the death later. Even when Ronon thought he was a goner he hugged people! Ronon! Now, he's acting like Sheppard goes off to die everyday (well maybe he does).


There were care moments in there, hon, not just from Rodney. Can you imagine Ronon hugging anyone on the team, lol. In TOR Rodney instigated the hugging (such a fab scene), but it was mostly to do with healing the scars than hugging because he was going to....

Spoilers for ToR in case people haven't seen it.
die.

Carson said something like, 'this is bloody foolish' which is his way of saying, 'I don't want you to die', lol. None of them really say how they feel about each other in words, it's more in their actions/reactions. Can you imagine a whole scene of I love you, I care about you, please don't go, we need you? Okay went a bit OTT there, lol, but you get my drift. I would have been puking into a sick bag, lol... sorry maybe that was a bit too much information, lol. I personally prefer the subtleties rather than the writers going for the extreem. As long as I get to see hints here and there i'm fine with that. Nice bonding moments are always a great touch :)


3. I hated that Teyla had her gun taken off her. This should not have happened. We've seen Teyla take down armed Wraith, yet she couldn't take out an injured, old man. Every time he turned to look down at the control panel, I was expecting Teyla to react. I get that it was needed for the plot, but Teyla was uncharacteristically weak here. Maybe Rodney could have a gun taken from him, but not Teyla. :teyla15:

Maybe she thought that she could reason with him? so she wouldn't have to fight? I agree she wasn't her usual fighting self, but chances are if she did kick the crap out of him, people probably would have said something like, 'that that's all Teyla is capable of 'fighting' ', or 'why can't she use her negotiating skills, because she's a leader' etc.... I think no matter how Ken wrote it (and I don't know if it was changed or not to show her fighting) people would go the opposite way, lol. But yep I agree it was uncharacteristic of her, and yes it was probably down to the plot :) If it did happen that way, we never would have go the infirmary scene, and that would have been a shame...


4. The final scene. Sheppard almost kills himself and Teyla could've been lost and again I didn't feel like anyone cared. It was too light and joke-filled at the end. We know that this cast can show concern for each other. Ronon in Sateda. Rodney in Tao. Weir in TRW. Sheppard in CG. But for Teyla? What happened here? And Teyla, the person trapped in that thing, barely said anything while Sheppard, Weir, and Carson talked over her. Okay, Carson seemed to care. He was a sweetheart. :) I also didn't like that Sheppard turned his back on her while joking. It felt too casual. Just another day at the job. Maybe that was the point? I'm not a Teyla fan, but I felt bad for her here. At the end, she was sitting by herself. Everyone just took off. Where was Ronon? He should've been in this scene too with that shoulder. :(

I don't think it was a case of no one caring about Teyla, but they knew the liklihood of him surviving and resuing Teyla were very remote. And Sheppard would have probably spent the rest of his life thinking 'what if' and that's a terrible feeling to be left with. But, it would have made great angst though *g*.


6. Sorry, thought of something else. At one point, Teyla promises the old man that they won't leave his people behind and makes Rodney lie with her, and then two minutes later she tells him "no promises". ????? Was this a goof, or did I miss something?

I see what you mean here, I think she realised that she couldn't lie to him indefinately, so she tried to be honest with him and it backfired.


Ah, but the job of a blackops/SF team is still to get the hell out alive and report your intel. Death really, truly is not preferable. ;)

Yep you're right there, but would they leave someone behind? Hehehe, I agree with you, death for Shep would have been the ultimate whump, lol, but so not preferable :D



I know, and I'm usually the one refusing to compare the two shows. But I just felt like it when I was watching for the first half. It was nagging at me. Bleh. In the end, they were pretty different, but they almost lost a viewer at first because I much rather would have liked seeing Daniel and Frasier argue. :cool:


Lol, I understand when you have loved an original show that it is hard not to compare it, and people have to resist *g* Resistance is not always futile *g*.


The rebel thing yes, and the awkwardness and quick shift into sniper mode. I just want the darkness back, is all. Phantoms came close with backstory. More of what makes him tick, I agree!

I'd love to see that to. I loved CG for that reason, very dark, but fantastically so... I know, but with that, I felt as if we already knew most of it (it was still nice to see it in the flesh...so to speak) *g* I am just greedy, though, bit like Oliver Twist and the 'Please, sir, can I have some more..' :D



Hey, I'm still loving it! Constructive criticism is always needed, though. ;)

Absolutely agree.



I think we clarified a few pages back that "surprising violence" was a much better phrase than "extreme violence". My fault. But that side of him was very interesting to me and I hope we get to see it again, along with the reactions from the others. Sometimes they seem as lulled by his laid-back demeanor as the viewers are, so it's very jarring when he shifts. But he hasn't done that in a while. I don't want TPTB to forget that aspect that made his character such a fun case-study.

I really enjoy it when we get to see the opposites of people's normal personalties, and we don't get to see it that often. If the writers are listening *shouts to Ken* Please can we have a dark ep again :) I agree with you, his dark personality is one that needs further investigating *steps up to the plate to tackle the task* It's a dirty job, but someone's gotta do it :) They had the opportunity with Kolya...... *repeats mantra..not going there...* But maybe we could get to see the Wraith from CG back and tie up some loose threads there. That could be fantastic.


And you just hit the nail on the head for me. ;)

I love ending a post on a positive note :D

FoolishPleasure
January 11th, 2007, 02:18 PM
Still playing catch up, sorry in advance if you've answered this. I disagree with you on this, in the Forces, spouses, girlfriends and boyfriends aren't usually allowed in the same unit but Teyla is none of those things, imo. She is therefore not bound by any military legislation.
Yes, Teyla may be civilian, but she IS bound by military rules. She IS under Sheppard's command and must follow his lead while on missions. Just as on SG1 where Daniel, while a civilian, still had to obey O'Neill's orders. As for romantic overtones, no CO can be "involved" with a team member (even a civilian under him) as in a case of "the mission or the mistress", he may choose the GF over orders, which is why the military is so strict in this regard. I say this because some shippers want Shep and Teyla together, but if that happened, she could not be going on missions with him. Its just common sense.


Her (Weir's) job is the leader of the Atlantis expedition though, how often do you see CEO's going off on field trips? When her expertise is d she will go off world (see Progeny).
Actually, if we want to nit-pik, Sheppard, as Commander of all Atlantis military personnel (and technically in Hammond's position as military CO), shouldn't be going out on missions either. Off world missions should be delegated to team leaders, not the CO (as in ST-TNG where Picard rarely went off world). Of course SG1 has an Air Force advisor reviewing scripts, while SGA does not, which may explain why O'Neill, Mitchell, and Carter feel more like true soldiers, while Sheppard runs around unshaven, with bedhead and behaves more like a freelancer at times. He may be a Lt. Col., but he doesn't always feel like one.


The only similarity (to "Lifeboat) I saw was that the ship was a lifeboat, lol. I don't mean to sound critical (and it's not directed at anyone specific here) but why do people compare this to SG1, it's not SG1. Once we stop comparing it to SG1, maybe people might enjoy it a bit more...
Let's play "Name the Episode", okay?

The scenario: Our team finds a derelict ship with the last survivors of a dead race. These survivors have had themselves downloaded to survive longer. The caretaker revives and is devasatated to discover what has happened to family. Name it? It is the backdrop to both "Lifeboat" and "The Ark". There ARE differences in the 2nd half of the episodes, but you can see why SG1 viewers would be angry, especially after "Progeny".

LoveConquers
January 11th, 2007, 02:26 PM
. Can you imagine Ronon hugging anyone on the team, lol. In TOR Rodney instigated the hugging (such a fab scene), but it was mostly to do with healing the scars than hugging because he was going to....

Spoilers for ToR in case people haven't seen it.
die.



Just a little side note. :) Ronon actually has initiated several hugs with his team. He hugged Carson in Sateda, he hugged John in Return Part 1, and he hugged Rodney at the end of Tao. Those are all ones that he initiated. The big guy's getting more touchy-feely. :)

starfox
January 11th, 2007, 02:31 PM
It wasn't just this episode. But lately on LJ and in the S/W thread there has been talk of all the times this season when the main two het ships have gotten equal treatment to the point of absurdity. e.g. in Sateda and TRW

Shep touches Teyla's hand and then Elizabeth's
in Phantoms and Echoes

he carries Teyla and then Elizabeth
and the list goes on. Don't you find that to be done on purpose? Maybe as a non-shipper, you don't. That sort of c*** is what annoys shippers to no end. They think they are giving us something for everybody, but what they end up doing is making everybody unhappy.

They make you unhappy; they don't make everyone unhappy. My OTP is Rodney/Teyla. I highly doubt that my ship will ever be canon, and the producers/writers aren't throwing anything my way. But it doesn't bother me when I see something that can be construed as, say, John/Teyla, because I'm willing to accept explanations other than romance. I think John is a flirt who has deep-seated issues and is incapable of having a functional romantic relationship. So when I see the concern he has for Teyla in "The Ark", I think of it as a team leader showing concern for someone he loves...in a truly platonic way. If other people want to interpret it in a shippy way, they can; I am perfectly capable of ignoring them. I trust that the producers know that main character ship right now would sink the show, and I go off and play in my happy world of fanfiction, where I can see 4 different pairings in half an hour and believe them all.

When I saw that Teyla needed rescue and John would be doing the rescuing, I knew where the John/Teyla shippers were going to take it. That was fine, because I can ignore that. Hell, if I want to post on this site without losing my mind, I have to ignore that. It's like Linzi said; we're all going to see what we want to see. If we analyze everything as ship, then we lose sight of the fact that these people are friends and have a right to express that friendship.

starfox
January 11th, 2007, 02:36 PM
There were care moments in there, hon, not just from Rodney. Can you imagine Ronon hugging anyone on the team, lol. In TOR Rodney instigated the hugging (such a fab scene), but it was mostly to do with healing the scars than hugging because he was going to....

Spoilers for ToR in case people haven't seen it.
die.

Carson said something like, 'this is bloody foolish' which is his way of saying, 'I don't want you to die', lol. None of them really say how they feel about each other in words, it's more in their actions/reactions. Can you imagine a whole scene of I love you, I care about you, please don't go, we need you? Okay went a bit OTT there, lol, but you get my drift. I would have been puking into a sick bag, lol... sorry maybe that was a bit too much information, lol. I personally prefer the subtleties rather than the writers going for the extreem. As long as I get to see hints here and there i'm fine with that. Nice bonding moments are always a great touch :)





Amen.

Willow'sCat
January 11th, 2007, 02:36 PM
If there is one point I didn't like, was the set-up; like some of the others have said, the guy killing itself, and his very quick emotional downwards spiral was kinda empty, but it had to happen to get the plot moving; however, everything after the guy killed himself went very smoothly.
I think that was one of the major flaws of the episode, from the spoilers I assumed we would get a lot more from this guy, in the end we had a few lines and then a suicide, I really felt little for him, and the older guy to me was creepy in the sense that he was convinced that his people did the right thing in allowing mass genocide to happen on his own planet. As someone alluded to earlier, were these people really so innocent? Also would you want to start "a new" with this lot?

Heehee, I also laughed when the guy said they had one of their planets best poets.... who cares about poets! :P


Yes, Teyla may be civilian, but she IS bound by military rules.No she really isn't, she said as much herself in The Tower, and really that is the problem with SGA, even Beckett said in The Rising that he doesn't take orders from the military... but SGA is now basically military run, any pretence at civilian operation now is just that a "pretence". :cool:

RoryJ
January 11th, 2007, 02:39 PM
Just a little side note. :) Ronon actually has initiated several hugs with his team. He hugged Carson in Sateda, he hugged John in Return Part 1, and he hugged Rodney at the end of Tao. Those are all ones that he initiated. The big guy's getting more touchy-feely. :)

Lol! When you think about it, it seems very in-character that Ronon would be more comfortable hugging all the guys. He's an army-bond, buddy-buddy, we-are-manly-men type of guy. Were he to hug Teyla or Elizabeth, I think it would be quite monumental. Actually, I'd like to see Teyla hug someone too. Her hug is the head-thing, but I want to see her just reach out and hug someone. Hell, even John. I don't care. I think it would be quite a moment for her too.

I don't know where I was going with that, but it's on my wishlist now. :cool:


My OTP is Rodney/Teyla.

OMG, that is my all-time favorite never-gonna-happen-but-it's-so-damn-cute ship. Just wanted to support you in that. :)

majortrip
January 11th, 2007, 02:42 PM
No she really isn't, she said as much herself in The Tower, and really that is the problem with SGA, even Beckett said in The Rising that he doesn't take orders from the military... but SGA is now basically military run, any pretence at civilian operation now is just that a "pretence". :cool:

There is also an example in 'Instinct' in which she tells Ronon that they have some discretion in what action to take. Also, in the S1 official companion, there is a line in which it states that Teyla does not answer to Earth's authority. I would think that if it's in an 'official' handbook, it would've gotten TPTB's approval? Way OT, though...

RoryJ
January 11th, 2007, 03:15 PM
There is also an example in 'Instinct' in which she tells Ronon that they have some discretion in what action to take. Also, in the S1 official companion, there is a line in which it states that Teyla does not answer to Earth's authority. I would think that if it's in an 'official' handbook, it would've gotten TPTB's approval? Way OT, though...

The Instinct comment was morea case of John being reckless (don't go off after the enemy without a wingman! Military 101, Johnny.), and she was right in telling Ronon to go after him.

If Teyla is allowed on the team and allowed to be in charge of Atlantis (ie Inturder and No Man's Land), then she answers to Weir and to those in command of Weir. If she's a freelancer with any amount of authority she chooses, they would never allow her to stay on the front-line team. Of course she has a right to say no, to walk away, and to disagree with decisions, but Sheppard and Weir remain her bosses, and if she wants to stay on the team then she's got to be held accountable to that. ANything else is just a ridiculous accident waiting to happen. The same applies to Ronon, Rodney, and all the civilians. Even the military contingent inevitably answers to Weir and a civilian IOA in some respects.

parisindy
January 11th, 2007, 03:17 PM
:lol: So, you liked the episode?



m'eh it was okay LMAO ... i freaking adored it! OMG
hehe it takes alot to make me post outside the whump thread hehehe
cause i'm a big chicken


and sheppys new uniform was excellent!

LoveConquers
January 11th, 2007, 03:20 PM
There is also an example in 'Instinct' in which she tells Ronon that they have some discretion in what action to take. Also, in the S1 official companion, there is a line in which it states that Teyla does not answer to Earth's authority. I would think that if it's in an 'official' handbook, it would've gotten TPTB's approval? Way OT, though...

Quite true. I was talking about shades of gray yesterday with the ethical question, and although, OT, to me, the same applies to this team as well. They are hardly an example of shining Military rules and regs. John is truly the only military. Then you've got two aliens and a scientist, all of whom were invited to be on the team, not ordered to be as say, Ford, would have been. As in the given examples, we have seen more than once this command structure is unique.

I guess to me, John is the team leader, so in that regard, Teyla and the others are his subordinates on missions. He gives the orders, and they follow. However, even though she is an offiicial member of his team, she is not military obviously. So in that regard, I wouldn't call it an official subordination. In Atlantis, she calls herself and Elizabeth and John leaders. And they see her as that way in return as well by also referring to her as a leader. She is then in the role of ambassador, and all are equal. For me, any deferment only comes when she steps into military uniform and adapts that unofficial, yet official role and respectfully follows his lead. By choice.

Ronon is different to me as he came from a military background and is not there as ambassador or a leader of people. He is there to fight the wraith and his military training led him to defer to John out of respect. More than once he doesn't agree with John, but asks him if it's an order. If John says yes, he complies.

So I see Ronon's role as more one-dimensional (his role, NOT his character!) and Teyla's role as more two dimensional. She has more than one hat to wear and switches them out with grace and dignity

The same can be said for Rodney and Carson.
On missions, John is also their leader and does give them orders. On Atlantis, the military does not command the civilians and Rodney as scientist and Carson as doctor are equals in their own right.

So in my opinion, you can't really blanket this team. Their multiple roles are far more unique for that.

LoveConquers
January 11th, 2007, 03:30 PM
If Teyla is allowed on the team and allowed to be in charge of Atlantis (ie Inturder and No Man's Land), then she answers to Weir and to those in command of Weir. If she's a freelancer with any amount of authority she chooses, they would never allow her to stay on the front-line team. Of course she has a right to say no, to walk away, and to disagree with decisions, but Sheppard and Weir remain her bosses, and if she wants to stay on the team then she's got to be held accountable to that. ANything else is just a ridiculous accident waiting to happen. The same applies to Ronon, Rodney, and all the civilians. Even the military contingent inevitably answers to Weir and a civilian IOA in some respects.


Also very good points! Again to me, more examples of shades of gray. As you said, there must be some sort of command structure and accountability. But at the same time, they can walk away at any time without any earthly consequence that any other military officer would encounter. It is a choice to be commanded because of the faith she has in the good of the exhibition.

ETA: Also, my co-worker in the office next door just popped her head in to comment that rules are meant to be broken. So says her former CO who is now also her husband. :) They married after returning from Iraq, but that didn't stop the romance from blooming. I've been reading this discussion to her since she is a veteran and knows way more than I do. :)

LoveConquers
January 11th, 2007, 03:35 PM
I'm with you 100% there. Yes, he is the lead of the show, and deserves a decent amount of screen time. However, if you're going to look at it in those terms, right behind Joe, second in the opening credits, is Torri. By that theory, she should also have a decent amount of screen time. I haven't seen the latest episodes (I'm in Australia, and haven't resorted to.. other means... to view the series..) but I've heard from others that it's been extremely light-on for Elizabeth moments lately. And I've seen several season three episodes as a result of a trip to the US and Canada recently.

The three leads are Shep/Weir/McKay. In my honest opinion, those are the three characters/actors who gel the best. They have the most chemistry. Logic would tell you that the three should be front and centre in most episodes. What we do get is plenty of Shep/McKay, but not so much Shep/Weir or McKay/Weir.

As for McKay getting a lot of episodes/moments for himself. Take a look at David Hewlett. Seriously. He runs rings around everyone. The man can take a script that's average and turn it into something amazing. His chemistry with the rest of the cast is unequalled. That's why he gets so much screen time. He can do anything they ask of him.

For me, the more Shep/Weir/McKay, Shep/Weir, or Weir/McKay moments the better. Throw a little Zelenka in there for good measure (the character is just way too cute!) and that's enough to keep me happy.

I think you'll be very happy then once you see the whole of season three! There is a lot from John/Rodney/Elizabeth! I hope you get to see them all soon!

RoryJ
January 11th, 2007, 03:36 PM
For me, any deferment only comes when she steps into military uniform and adapts that unofficial, yet official role and respectfully follows his lead. By choice.

Here I agree. Her role on Atlantis and her role off-world as a member of John's team are very different. But when off-world, I would say she has to respect John's authority. And if Caldwell overrules him, then she has to follow his orders. Choosing to follow orders off-world is ridiculous, because a clear chain of command, whether you are military or not, is a priority for a reason. Without it, mistakes happen and the entire mission is blown to hell. If they want to be on an off-world team, then they have to be willing to defer to the team leader. End of story.


The same can be said for Rodney and Carson.
On missions, John is also their leader and does give them orders. On Atlantis, the military does not command the civilians and Rodney as scientist and Carson as doctor are equals in their own right.

I absolutely agree. Off-world, they have to follow orders, but on Atlantis John is not in charge of them. Elizabeth is. On Atlantis, Teyla, Rodney, Carson, and Ronon all have a unique amount of authority and independence that is very different from SG-1, and that's an interesting dynamic to play. Look at the power struggle in The Long Goodbye; when both the civilian leader and the military commander are compromised, who takes over? The Military second-in-command, or the civilian second-in-command? It was not clear cut in any way. But when both are gone in Intruder and No Man's Land (along with both Caldwell and McKay), the burden naturally falls to Teyla, who is a capable leader and whose people have just as much claim to the city of the Ancestors as the people of Earth do.


So in my opinion, you can't really blanket this team. Their multiple roles are far more unique for that.

Very true. :)


ETA: I knew we'd keep missing each other's posts, lol. I agree to an extent with your friend, but some rules are rules because they just make sense. I'm an Air Force youngin' (certainly no veteran), so it all may just be fresh in my mind, but most military principals truly are time-tested and smart.

LoveConquers
January 11th, 2007, 03:39 PM
Here I agree. Her role on Atlantis and her role off-world as a member of John's team are very different. But when off-world, I would say she has to respect John's authority. And if Caldwell overrules him, then she has to follow his orders. Choosing to follow orders off-world is ridiculous, because a clear chain of command, whether you are military or not, is a priority for a reason. Without it, mistakes happen and the entire mission is blown to hell. If they want to be on an off-world team, then they have to be willing to defer to the team leader. End of story.



I absolutely agree. Off-world, they have to follow orders, but on Atlantis John is not in charge of them. Elizabeth is. On Atlantis, Teyla, Rodney, Carson, and Ronon all have a unique amount of authority and independence that is very different from SG-1, and that's an interesting dynamic to play. Look at the power struggle in The Long Goodbye; when both the civilian leader and the military commander, who takes over? The Military second-in-command, or the civilian second-in-command? It was not clear cut in any way. But when both are gone in Intruder and No Man's Land (along with both Caldwell and McKay), the burden naturally falls to Teyla, who is a capable leader and whose people have just as much claim to the city of the Ancestors as the people of Earth do.



Very true. :)

Oh, great comments! You said that much better than I did. :) So just have to say, I agree. :) Thanks!

ETA: RoryJ, I just love your sig!

Sorry for going OT yet again.

prion
January 11th, 2007, 03:51 PM
Somebody, sorry not sure who, said

and the list goes on. Don't you find that to be done on purpose? Maybe as a non-shipper, you don't. That sort of c*** is what annoys shippers to no end. They think they are giving us something for everybody, but what they end up doing is making everybody unhappy.

Ship, by definition, is a fanfic term coined out of ye olden days of X-Files for fans who wanted Mulder and Scully together. It a fan fiction term which slowly bled into the vernacular.

The reason why producers are wary of pairing off any leads is that it KILLS ratings - unless you're doing a soap type show like Desperate Housewives or Grey's Anatomy, which are basically all about personal relationships. The Stargates are action-adventure episodic shows. They do well in syndication, whereas shows that have continuing storylines, like soaps, tend to do less well (Dallas bombed).

The producers don't cater to shippers anymore than they do to whump fans or slash fans. They're aiming for the biggest, broadcast audience they can attain. Action/adventure, drama, maybe a hint of UST (unresolved sexual tension) is what you're going to get on SGA. It's the UST that keep the *viewers* coming back. Resolve it, and you will lose some audience. It's a proven fact.

I'd hate to see SGA fandom dissovle into some of the bitterness and rancor I've seen in *some* parts of SG1 fandom because of the S/J ship thing; it's been drawn out so long some fans are just totally disgusted.

Leave 'ship' for fan fiction, as that's where it was born.

Meanwhile, this IS a "The Ark" thread, so I should talk about it. The rest above is really off-topic.

Does everybody in the PG have intertial dampeners, as Shep sorta should have been a splat on the windshield after crashing, er, landing the shuttle/glider.

ANd what did the 1,000 people 'reintegrated' do for food, water, etc. on such a barren world?

Did like the end scene with Teyla and Shep in the infirmary.... "Yes, I think even for Rodney," says Teyla to which Shep grumbles "Maybe." Aw........

LoveConquers
January 11th, 2007, 03:58 PM
ETA: I knew we'd keep missing each other's posts, lol. I agree to an extent with your friend, but some rules are rules because they just make sense. I'm an Air Force youngin' (certainly no veteran), so it all may just be fresh in my mind, but most military principals truly are time-tested and smart.

LOL! Oh definitely. We meant that tongue-in-cheek. :)

LoveConquers
January 11th, 2007, 04:11 PM
The producers don't cater to shippers anymore than they do to whump fans or slash fans. They're aiming for the biggest, broadcast audience they can attain. Action/adventure, drama, maybe a hint of UST (unresolved sexual tension) is what you're going to get on SGA.

Here I most definitely agree. While I do think ship can be done and done in Sci-Fi without killing a show, it's not going to happen for SGA. It's not the intended purpose of this particular show. And I wholeheartedly agree that no matter what category we class ourselves, we're not going to be catered to in the big picture.


Meanwhile, this IS a "The Ark" thread, so I should talk about it. The rest above is really off-topic.

Does everybody in the PG have intertial dampeners, as Shep sorta should have been a splat on the windshield after crashing, er, landing the shuttle/glider.

ANd what did the 1,000 people 'reintegrated' do for food, water, etc. on such a barren world?


Agree, let's get back to Ark! I've posted more than my own share of OT posts in the last hour. :o As for the barren world, it was my understanding it is the result of their self-imposed nuclear fallout. As for what they planned to do now that they've been reintegrated? Good question! Start over? :S That was their stated plan at least. Who knows what preparations they made in that regard.

Mitchell82
January 11th, 2007, 04:12 PM
I apologize for going off-topic, but I don't understand what complaining about the supposed lack of Elizabeth has to do with this ep? This is the Ark episode thread. Why are some Elizabeth fans feeling the need to complain in this particular thread?

Just to point out, next to John and Rodney, she is the third most represented character. When you look at our other main characters--Carson, Ronon, and Teyla--Elizabeth has a lot more overall screen time than any of the rest of them. She's been given several meaty roles this year, including her own episode. And I love Elizabeth, so I think it's great. I can understand the frustration at her not being used in more creative roles sometimes, but I do not understand these complaints at her not having enough screen time, especially in light of our other main characters who have had even less attention.
Just to be clear I wasnt complaining but just saying that i understand why some fans are upset about it.

LoveConquers
January 11th, 2007, 04:25 PM
Just to be clear I wasnt complaining but just saying that i understand why some fans are upset about it.


Oh I'm sorry, I just grabbed yours as the last comment. My apologies. I did understand your comment was just that, a comment to someone's else complaint. I'll go back and edit you out of there. :o

prion
January 11th, 2007, 05:15 PM
Agree, let's get back to Ark! I've posted more than my own share of OT posts in the last hour. :o As for the barren world, it was my understanding it is the result of their self-imposed nuclear fallout. As for what they planned to do now that they've been reintegrated? Good question! Start over? :S That was their stated plan at least. Who knows what preparations they made in that regard.

Yeah, one day you've got a STarbucks, the next, a hole in the ground. It's like shipwrecking a bunch of people on a desert island (without tv producers trailing you around with cameras). and Shep landed in, hmm, looked like a pretty parched desert! sure as heck hope they decided to relocate the device/shuttle to a more hospitable habitat cuz there's no way the Atlantis crew is gonna ship in that many litlte bottles of Evian water for 1,000 people....

LoveConquers
January 11th, 2007, 05:55 PM
Yeah, one day you've got a STarbucks, the next, a hole in the ground. It's like shipwrecking a bunch of people on a desert island (without tv producers trailing you around with cameras). and Shep landed in, hmm, looked like a pretty parched desert! sure as heck hope they decided to relocate the device/shuttle to a more hospitable habitat cuz there's no way the Atlantis crew is gonna ship in that many litlte bottles of Evian water for 1,000 people....

LOL! And with 200 kids in the bunch, we can guess who Rodney will delegate to that duty if he has any say in the matter. I see more braids in Zalenka's future. :D

GateByte
January 11th, 2007, 05:59 PM
I'm with you 100% there. Yes, he is the lead of the show, and deserves a decent amount of screen time. However, if you're going to look at it in those terms, right behind Joe, second in the opening credits, is Torri. By that theory, she should also have a decent amount of screen time. I haven't seen the latest episodes (I'm in Australia, and haven't resorted to.. other means... to view the series..) but I've heard from others that it's been extremely light-on for Elizabeth moments lately. And I've seen several season three episodes as a result of a trip to the US and Canada recently.

The three leads are Shep/Weir/McKay. In my honest opinion, those are the three characters/actors who gel the best. They have the most chemistry. Logic would tell you that the three should be front and centre in most episodes. What we do get is plenty of Shep/McKay, but not so much Shep/Weir or McKay/Weir.

As for McKay getting a lot of episodes/moments for himself. Take a look at David Hewlett. Seriously. He runs rings around everyone. The man can take a script that's average and turn it into something amazing. His chemistry with the rest of the cast is unequalled. That's why he gets so much screen time. He can do anything they ask of him.

For me, the more Shep/Weir/McKay, Shep/Weir, or Weir/McKay moments the better. Throw a little Zelenka in there for good measure (the character is just way too cute!) and that's enough to keep me happy.

I couldn't agree with you more. Those three, for me anyways, are the reason I love the show so much. By not giving Elizabeth screen time comparable to McKay/Shep, they're losing something in the team dynamic. Although they do seem to have stepped up on the Shep/Weir, McKay/Weir interactions, they are still dragging significantly behind the Shep/McKay interactions. One of my favourite, if not the favourite, episodes is 'The Storm/Eye' because of the interactions between all of them. Plus there was a nice helping of Zelenka/McKay and that's never a bad thing :).

I don't think I could say anything about DH that you haven't already, the man in unrivaled in his ability to turn even bad scripts into something that is at least watchable. He's basically the glue that holds things together, because he has such great chemistry with everyone.

Even though 'The Ark' was totally lacking on almost all fronts, I think you'll enjoy the rest of the season :).

And since this is an episode thread, I guess I'll just add that although I did like the sets they had built and the story had the 'potential' to be good, I felt it wasn't executed in the best manner, nor was the ending anything spectacular. The story has been done a hundred times over in Star Trek, for example, and has been delivered in a much better way. We did get a few more 'team' moments, but nothing that would warrant me watching it again in the near future.

misha
January 11th, 2007, 06:11 PM
The three leads are Shep/Weir/McKay. In my honest opinion, those are the three characters/actors who gel the best. They have the most chemistry. Logic would tell you that the three should be front and centre in most episodes. What we do get is plenty of Shep/McKay, but not so much Shep/Weir or McKay/Weir.

For me, the more Shep/Weir/McKay, Shep/Weir, or Weir/McKay moments the better.

I completely agree. Some of the better episodes of Atlantis have featured the Sheppard, Weir, McKay dynamic interacting together. They are the heart of the show, imo. I think that's why The Ark didn't entertain me. The episode was missing a key element of the forementioned dynamic: Elizabeth.

Flowerbud
January 11th, 2007, 06:38 PM
Ship, by definition, is a fanfic term coined out of ye olden days of X-Files for fans who wanted Mulder and Scully together. It a fan fiction term which slowly bled into the vernacular.

The reason why producers are wary of pairing off any leads is that it KILLS ratings - unless you're doing a soap type show like Desperate Housewives or Grey's Anatomy, which are basically all about personal relationships. The Stargates are action-adventure episodic shows. They do well in syndication, whereas shows that have continuing storylines, like soaps, tend to do less well (Dallas bombed).

The producers don't cater to shippers anymore than they do to whump fans or slash fans. They're aiming for the biggest, broadcast audience they can attain. Action/adventure, drama, maybe a hint of UST (unresolved sexual tension) is what you're going to get on SGA. It's the UST that keep the *viewers* coming back. Resolve it, and you will lose some audience. It's a proven fact.

I'd hate to see SGA fandom dissovle into some of the bitterness and rancor I've seen in *some* parts of SG1 fandom because of the S/J ship thing; it's been drawn out so long some fans are just totally disgusted.

Leave 'ship' for fan fiction, as that's where it was born.

Television has changed since the days of Moonlighting, the hoary old example usually given that ship kills a show. A lot of action adventure shows, including sci-fi shows, usually have some romantic relationships going on. Ship tends to add a lot of texture and depth to shows and often a great way to expand characterizations. Sometimes, the denigration of romantic relationships feels like an aversion to women.

Also, it's not about catering to different fan groups. On Gateworld, the Shep-Weir Ship thread had a million views, by far the most popular ship thread surpassing the thunking and whumping threads. I think it's most popular heterosexual ship on LiveJournal as well.

I don't watch Stargate for relationship drama, but 3 years of unresolved sexual tension becomes boring and stale. Like all good stories, it needs a sense of momentum. Like Southern Red, I am very annoyed by the inability of TPTB to make a decision about ship. They've clearly hinted at different ships and use ship to promote the show. Then, to tell those fans who like ship, "oh, there's nothing shippy there. It's all about friendship." It's rather disrespectful to the audience.

I want to see the characters grow and develop. I'd love to see Elizabeth have a heart-to-heart with John about his need to be so self-sacrificing. I still don't understand John's behavior sometimes; it's just there. :)

Chailyn
January 11th, 2007, 06:41 PM
None of them really say how they feel about each other in words, it's more in their actions/reactions. Can you imagine a whole scene of I love you, I care about you, please don't go, we need you? Okay went a bit OTT there, lol, but you get my drift. I would have been puking into a sick bag, lol... sorry maybe that was a bit too much information, lol. I personally prefer the subtleties rather than the writers going for the extreem. As long as I get to see hints here and there i'm fine with that. Nice bonding moments are always a great touch :)

I understand what you're saying, but I honestly don't think that scene worked. Like I mentioned previously, I did not, at all, from what was put on the screen, get that Sheppard was going on a suicide mission. Obviously, you did. However, I know I'm not the only one who didn't see this. If something as monumental as Sheppard's death is going to be proposed (and taken seriously) then it really has to be clear for the entire audience so that the entire audience can feel the impact of that event. I shouldn't have to come onto a fansite to get it.

I think most of the problem was that the episode's pacing was way off. Nothing really happened in the beginning or middle. We really didn't even get a climax. Everything happened at the end. They find out that Teyla's been sucked into the machine, and then almost instantly Sheppard figures out a plan. There was no sense of build-up or urgency, which is why they probably started the episode with the action scene and then flashed back. I barely had time to compute that Teyla was a goner before Sheppard jumps over the cliff too. :p Maybe Teyla should have been sucked into the thing in the beginning of the ep, and then the team would have to 'beat the clock' to get her out before the moon burned up. Then, when everything else fails, only then would Sheppard decide on the suicidal plan. I would have got that. ;)

Or, like I said before, all they needed was for Sheppard to have a quick thirty second discussion with Lorne. Lorne is Sheppard's right-hand military man, right? He would be the one replacing Sheppard on Atlantis, at least in the short-term, unless Caldwell pulled for the job. Sheppard's death has more consequences than just the loss of one man, but because of the way it was handled it never entered my mind that Sheppard would need to be replaced. "Take care of my people" or even "Don't let Caldwell screw things up." That's all that was needed to be said. Maybe a salute. No crying. I can't see either of those guys crying. :)

For me, so much of this episode just felt sloppy. Teyla losing her gun was one of the worst bits. Seriously, all those Teyla/Sheppard and Teyla/Ronon gym scenes have been to show that Earth modern weapons aren't always necessary in a fight, right? Or have they been there merely to egg on shippers and teenage boys? :S I'm not a shipper or a teenage boy, so I need a reason for these things. This was a perfect opportunity for Teyla to show her stuff, for her to show how her people would handle themselves without a gun. We've seen Teyla's moves. She's awesome! Even without her sticks she should have been able to take out Grandpa. ;)


As for "Teyla just can't win"; she's my second favorite character on the series. And if more screentime means just giving her a grandiose speech, then I say no, she CAN'T win. Give the gal an episode, please! Give her a Sateda, or a TRW, or a Tao of Rodney, or a Common Ground. Echoes was close, but in the second half she was already down for the count.

I agree 100%! You know what? I don't even like her character and I want her to have an episode! How messed up is that? :P Seriously, though, they can give Teyla all the heart-felt monologues they want, but she needs something to develop her, or else I simply won't care. :(

Flowerbud
January 11th, 2007, 06:46 PM
I'm with you 100% there. Yes, he is the lead of the show, and deserves a decent amount of screen time. However, if you're going to look at it in those terms, right behind Joe, second in the opening credits, is Torri. By that theory, she should also have a decent amount of screen time. I haven't seen the latest episodes (I'm in Australia, and haven't resorted to.. other means... to view the series..) but I've heard from others that it's been extremely light-on for Elizabeth moments lately. And I've seen several season three episodes as a result of a trip to the US and Canada recently.

The three leads are Shep/Weir/McKay. In my honest opinion, those are the three characters/actors who gel the best. They have the most chemistry. Logic would tell you that the three should be front and centre in most episodes. What we do get is plenty of Shep/McKay, but not so much Shep/Weir or McKay/Weir.

As for McKay getting a lot of episodes/moments for himself. Take a look at David Hewlett. Seriously. He runs rings around everyone. The man can take a script that's average and turn it into something amazing. His chemistry with the rest of the cast is unequalled. That's why he gets so much screen time. He can do anything they ask of him.

For me, the more Shep/Weir/McKay, Shep/Weir, or Weir/McKay moments the better. Throw a little Zelenka in there for good measure (the character is just way too cute!) and that's enough to keep me happy.

I absolutely agree. Shep/Weir/McKay are the heart of the show. They are the strongest actors on the show and have terrific chemistry with each other.

RoryJ
January 11th, 2007, 06:57 PM
I agree 100%! You know what? I don't even like her character and I want her to have an episode! How messed up is that? :P Seriously, though, they can give Teyla all the heart-felt monologues they want, but she needs something to develop her, or else I simply won't care. :(

Yes! While The Ark wins points for at least giving Teyla something to do, couldn't there have been some other way for her to accidently end up in the machine except for sloppily losing her gun? The woman can take out any guy in Atlantis and a fully armed Wraith any day of the week. Blah. On the other hand, I don't think this was meant to be a Teyla episode. Which leaves it pointless. It was no one's episode. If anybody shined, it was Rodney for his "we leave no one behind" line. That's it. Nothing was accomplished, no one grew, we learned nothing new. And I still didn't get my proper Teyla fix. *grumbles*

Chailyn
January 11th, 2007, 07:07 PM
Yes! While The Ark wins points for at least giving Teyla something to do, couldn't there have been some other way for her to accidently end up in the machine except for sloppily losing her gun? The woman can take out any guy in Atlantis and a fully armed Wraith any day of the week. Blah. On the other hand, I don't think this was meant to be a Teyla episode. Which leaves it pointless. It was no one's episode. If anybody shined, it was Rodney for his "we leave no one behind" line. That's it. Nothing was accomplished, no one grew, we learned nothing new. And I still didn't get my proper Teyla fix. *grumbles*

Are you in my head?

We're totally having a moment here. :D

LiveLongAndProsper
January 11th, 2007, 07:43 PM
Television has changed since the days of Moonlighting, the hoary old example usually given that ship kills a show. A lot of action adventure shows, including sci-fi shows, usually have some romantic relationships going on. Ship tends to add a lot of texture and depth to shows and often a great way to expand characterizations. Sometimes, the denigration of romantic relationships feels like an aversion to women.
I'll agree that romance can add character depth and drama to a show, any show. And I do think it's a bit odd for people living so far from home and the dating scene to be celibate. However, maybe TPTB feel that romance has no place on this show, although some UST might keep some viewers watching. I don't have any hard demographics data, but I wonder if they're crafting a show toward a a very broad audience who may be put off by romance between main characters.


Also, it's not about catering to different fan groups. On Gateworld, the Shep-Weir Ship thread had a million views, by far the most popular ship thread surpassing the thunking and whumping threads. I think it's most popular heterosexual ship on LiveJournal as well.
Wow. I don't know how anyone else feels about that, but the need to shout "We're number one! We deserve something!" puts me off a bit. If TPTB catered to the most popular anythings all the time, then surely Mulder and Scully would've been more lovey dovey on screen, and there'd have been an on-screen resolution to the Sam/Jack thing by now. I'd be willing to bet a fair few of those hits are people who check out the ship threads to watch the drama, or the simply curious, or people who flit around reading ALL the ship and character threads but never post anything. I would think that if TPTB cared about 'most populars' a lot of things would be different on lots of shows.


I don't watch Stargate for relationship drama, but 3 years of unresolved sexual tension becomes boring and stale. Like all good stories, it needs a sense of momentum. Like Southern Red, I am very annoyed by the inability of TPTB to make a decision about ship. They've clearly hinted at different ships and use ship to promote the show. Then, to tell those fans who like ship, "oh, there's nothing shippy there. It's all about friendship." It's rather disrespectful to the audience.
I wouldn't says it's disrespectful. Maybe such things are NOT intended, some fans simply want them to be. Why should they apologize or make a decision on that? If it's not in line with TPTB's vision for the show, you're notlikely to see it.

Mitchell82
January 11th, 2007, 08:21 PM
Oh I'm sorry, I just grabbed yours as the last comment. My apologies. I did understand your comment was just that, a comment to someone's else complaint. I'll go back and edit you out of there. :o

Thanks it's fine.

LoveConquers
January 11th, 2007, 08:49 PM
Thanks it's fine.

Thank you!

starfox
January 11th, 2007, 08:52 PM
Yes! While The Ark wins points for at least giving Teyla something to do, couldn't there have been some other way for her to accidently end up in the machine except for sloppily losing her gun? The woman can take out any guy in Atlantis and a fully armed Wraith any day of the week. Blah. On the other hand, I don't think this was meant to be a Teyla episode. Which leaves it pointless. It was no one's episode. If anybody shined, it was Rodney for his "we leave no one behind" line. That's it. Nothing was accomplished, no one grew, we learned nothing new. And I still didn't get my proper Teyla fix. *grumbles*


Defending Teyla losing her gun:

Anyone can be caught off-guard. When we see her in the gym and in other fight scenes, she's looking at the people she's fighting as opponents/threats. Teyla was looking at Jamus as a fragile, injured old man, which is what allowed him to get so close to her gun in the first place. Yeah, it's a stupid move, but she knows that. I'm pretty sure there's a split-second after she realises he has her sidearm where she has this "dammit, I'm an idiot" look on her face. And after he has the gun? You don't mess with someone who has a firearm pointed at you at that range. Well, I mean you could, but it would be stupid. Guns are dangerous, guns at short range moreso, and guns held by desperate men at close range exponentially moreso. She has no way to know how itchy his trigger finger is, and I don't care how fast you are, you can't dodge bullets. Not at that range, anyway. Once Jamus had the gun, any move she made was practically guaranteed to leave her injured, if not killed, and the team riddling Jamus with holes once they got to him.

She could have made a move during one of the split seconds when he looked away, but when he was typing commands into the beaming device, he was too far away for a lunge that wouldn't practically assure her injury, and too close to duck out of the line of fire before making a move.

It didn't bother me so much, Teyla's being disarmed, because it was a reminder that no one's perfect; everyone makes dumb mistakes, even in their area of expertise.

```

Also, OT on the shipping issue that's going around: Why do you guys even want TPTB to make your ships canon? There are so many theories that would be completely jossed, so many mistakes they could make with it. Aren't we all just better off with the UST so we can keep our theories and explore them on our own? Heck, I know some fans who do a better job at the romantic relationships than TPTB ever could.

~starfox (who is still bitter that her theory of debaucherousdruggiegradstudent!Rodney got jossed)

Flowerbud
January 11th, 2007, 08:57 PM
I'll agree that romance can add character depth and drama to a show, any show. And I do think it's a bit odd for people living so far from home and the dating scene to be celibate. However, maybe TPTB feel that romance has no place on this show, although some UST might keep some viewers watching. I don't have any hard demographics data, but I wonder if they're crafting a show toward a a very broad audience who may be put off by romance between main characters.

Conversely, I can argue that by not having ship, a show will be narrowing its audience base. If romance has no place on Stargate, then why do they use shippy scenes to promote the show. For example, SciFi used the kiss scene from The Long Goodbye in their promotion for that episode.

Wow. I don't know how anyone else feels about that, but the need to shout "We're number one! We deserve something!" puts me off a bit. If TPTB catered to the most popular anythings all the time, then surely Mulder and Scully would've been more lovey dovey on screen, and there'd have been an on-screen resolution to the Sam/Jack thing by now.
I didn't mean to be "tooting my horn" so to speak. Rather, just to point out that the ship threads are extremely popular as can be seen by the number of views they have. Re: X-files, that show had one of the rarest things on television: incredible chemistry between its leading characters. The executive producer, Chris Carter, swore up and down in all his interviews that he would not have any kind of romantic ship although clearly the chemistry between the leads was an important factor in drawing in their audience. So, the UST continued with fans becoming increasingly frustrated until the ratings started to fall. Then, he pulls out some ship, but it's too little, too late. Most of the ship fans had left and the ones who remained were disgusted by how shoddily and in a slapdash manner he had resolved teh ship. That show left a bad taste in many people' mouths.

I'd be willing to bet a fair few of those hits are people who check out the ship threads to watch the drama, or the simply curious, or people who flit around reading ALL the ship and character threads but never post anything. There's no drama on the S/W thread and I'm pretty sure on the Sheyla thread as well. The number of views for S/W thread is way out of proportion in comparison to other threads to account for viewers simply flitting around. The majority of viewers are lurkers who like to regularly read about the S/W ship.


I would think that if TPTB cared about 'most populars' a lot of things would be different on lots of shows.
I have no idea how TPTB make their decisions, but it would be reasonable to assume they do take a look at popularity. ;)

I wouldn't says it's disrespectful. Maybe such things are NOT intended, some fans simply want them to be. Why should they apologize or make a decision on that? If it's not in line with TPTB's vision for the show, you're notlikely to see it.
TPTB planned a ship from the beginning, Sheyla. But for whatever reasons, they built up Shep-Weir, Ronon-Teyla, and McKay-Weir ships as well. And of course, the ubiquitous Shep-McKay. Sometimes, I just wonder if maybe they just don't feel confident about writing a romantic relationship and that's why they're are avoiding making a decision about ship; Who knows?

Re: Sam/Jack ship, I think they hurt SG-1 by not resolving it. Probably, a good chunk of the S/J shippers gave up and stopped watching the show. SG-1' s ratings suffered for many reasons, but leaving the S/J ship dangling, I think, played a big role.

LoveConquers
January 11th, 2007, 08:58 PM
Defending Teyla losing her gun:

Anyone can be caught off-guard. When we see her in the gym and in other fight scenes, she's looking at the people she's fighting as opponents/threats. Teyla was looking at Jamus as a fragile, injured old man, which is what allowed him to get so close to her gun in the first place. Yeah, it's a stupid move, but she knows that. I'm pretty sure there's a split-second after she realises he has her sidearm where she has this "dammit, I'm an idiot" look on her face. And after he has the gun? You don't mess with someone who has a firearm pointed at you at that range. Well, I mean you could, but it would be stupid. Guns are dangerous, guns at short range moreso, and guns held by desperate men at close range exponentially moreso. She has no way to know how itchy his trigger finger is, and I don't care how fast you are, you can't dodge bullets. Not at that range, anyway. Once Jamus had the gun, any move she made was practically guaranteed to leave her injured, if not killed, and the team riddling Jamus with holes once they got to him.

She could have made a move during one of the split seconds when he looked away, but when he was typing commands into the beaming device, he was too far away for a lunge that wouldn't practically assure her injury, and too close to duck out of the line of fire before making a move.

It didn't bother me so much, Teyla's being disarmed, because it was a reminder that no one's perfect; everyone makes dumb mistakes, even in their area of expertise.

I really like how you said this. I have to admit I wasn't too sure about that part either, other than of course that everyone can be caught off guard and anyone can make a mistake. But this makes total sense. Thanks for that!

RoryJ
January 11th, 2007, 09:26 PM
Defending Teyla losing her gun:

Anyone can be caught off-guard. When we see her in the gym and in other fight scenes, she's looking at the people she's fighting as opponents/threats. Teyla was looking at Jamus as a fragile, injured old man, which is what allowed him to get so close to her gun in the first place. Yeah, it's a stupid move, but she knows that. I'm pretty sure there's a split-second after she realises he has her sidearm where she has this "dammit, I'm an idiot" look on her face. And after he has the gun? You don't mess with someone who has a firearm pointed at you at that range. Well, I mean you could, but it would be stupid. Guns are dangerous, guns at short range moreso, and guns held by desperate men at close range exponentially moreso. She has no way to know how itchy his trigger finger is, and I don't care how fast you are, you can't dodge bullets. Not at that range, anyway. Once Jamus had the gun, any move she made was practically guaranteed to leave her injured, if not killed, and the team riddling Jamus with holes once they got to him.

She could have made a move during one of the split seconds when he looked away, but when he was typing commands into the beaming device, he was too far away for a lunge that wouldn't practically assure her injury, and too close to duck out of the line of fire before making a move.

I get how it happened, but when I see it coming a mile away, then it's sloppy. It played out sloppy and it looked sloppy and it made her appear sloppy. I can think of better and more clever/surprising ways to have surprised her, but what's done is done and I just felt that it made Teyla's highly touted skills seem cheap.



Also, OT on the shipping issue that's going around: Why do you guys even want TPTB to make your ships canon? There are so many theories that would be completely jossed, so many mistakes they could make with it. Aren't we all just better off with the UST so we can keep our theories and explore them on our own? Heck, I know some fans who do a better job at the romantic relationships than TPTB ever could.

That's a dangerous question to ask, because shippers notoriously do not see eye to eye or get along very well. Plus, that conversation is a can of worms that really doesn't belong in this thread. *shrugs* I don't really like the idea of these PTB writing my ship anyways. But I actually enjoyed Sam and Jack, if only for how well RDA and AT played it and how well it was directed, less so for the writing of it. But I agree with Flowerbud that not following through with what was started was a great way to effectively piss off a good chunk of the fan base and was a plain, old bad way of handling things.

TPTB can make an equal number of mistakes by leading up and then letting go, then leading up again and then yanking things back. That's frustrating. I'm not saying The Ark did any of this, but you asked, so I told. :cool:

Quinn Mallory
January 11th, 2007, 09:41 PM
I can think of better and more clever/surprising ways to have surprised her, but what's done is done and I just felt that it made Teyla's highly touted skills seem cheap.


I agree that part of this episode bothered me as well. I can only imagine that Teyla was somewhat moved by Jamus (sp?)'s plead and thus was brainstorming in her head a way to help that civilization to be distracted. More importantly, it seems odd that Teyla didn't attempt to retake her side arm.

Overall, I thought the interaction of team with the two survivors were both quite sloppy. Granted, they went into the mission not expecting to encounter anyone else but to leave a clearly emotional distraught person all alone and then let your gurad down with that old guy who clearly also have some issues (which was clear even before he admitting that their civilization nuking their own people).

I thought the overall idea of the episode was interesting but actual result was a bit disappointing for the usually high SG standard.

the old briar pipe
January 11th, 2007, 09:45 PM
I absolutely agree. Shep/Weir/McKay are the heart of the show. They are the strongest actors on the show and have terrific chemistry with each other.

Okay, I'm not trying to single you out, Flowerbud, I'm just responding to this whole McShepWeir thread.

I think this trio works well in many eps, but if I saw it all the time, I'd get bored and leave. Like most folks, I like variety in my television.

I also think that it's very much certain people's opinions that these are the best actors on the show. They are certainly the most developed characters (ignoring Shep's lack of backstory), but have you seen what Jason Momoa has done with Ronon since he came on board? Serious heavy lifting with minimal lines. Good, solid work that's easily equal to the 'big 3' IMO.

Sadly, I doubt we'll ever get a chance to find out if RL can do the same, since her lines have mostly been cliche and she hasn't had a focused ep since 1st season.

I'll save my plethora of PM comments for the appropriate thread. ;)

So for me, The Ark was just what I was looking for. It felt more solid than The Game because there was real team interaction, and that's what I'm here for. Yes, I missed Lizzie, but she didn't pull her punches in the scenes she was in, and she's certainly had more screentime this season than Teyla, so the tradeoff was more than acceptable to me. Sorry if that offends anyone....

I liked the action, liked the flow, could ignore the couple of technical issues in favor of the basic story, which has been done in SF but rarely this well. I read and watch a lot of SF, and usually this type of plot is the hole which sinks an entire ep. It was very much not in this case.

I don't know why some people seem to be horrified that Shep wasn't considering 1000 innocent lives in his calculations and some couldn't connect with the dilemma at all, but I was hooked from Shep's re-entry right at the beginning. That helped me figure out the whole suicide plan later, actually, and even if I didn't think he'd die, I did wonder if the unit might malfunction after a landing like that.

(And if maybe for a second when Teyla and McKay were in the Jumper together I thought they might get trapped there and my fondest wish come true (actual dialogue between them, not smooching), well, I hardly even get my hopes up anymore, so it was no biggie.)

So, to review: solid writing, great set, good team interactions, funny moments, lovely Lorne, men with blowtorches (ahem ;) ) and Teyla finally getting some real screen time. Absolutely no complaints here. *wanders off happy*

(P.S. And as for shipping on-screen, this ain't Farscape, folks. There is no 'obvious' ship, and as a slasher, I laugh at anyone who gets upset that their ship hasn't been picked yet. Try being us for a day.)

Chailyn
January 11th, 2007, 10:33 PM
When we see her in the gym and in other fight scenes, she's looking at the people she's fighting as opponents/threats.

Well, at least we now know that the gyms of Atlantis shall be forever safe from baddies! :p

Sorry, Sorry. Just kidding.

I still think that the scene's stupid. :shrug: If it was Rodney...fine. But, TPTB have seriously gone out of their way to paint Teyla as the warrior, who must even teach professionally trained soliders a thing or two. Instead, she waits helplessly while Shep and Co. try to cut down the door. This should not be allowed to happen. And, maybe it's true that Teyla let her emotions get in the way and that's why she was unprepared, but that doesn't mean I have to like it. For someone who's had to live under the Wraith, I think she is a little too black/white and naive at times. Maybe this was just an extension of that. I don't know.



More importantly, it seems odd that Teyla didn't attempt to retake her side arm.

I know. Instead she goes into a monologue. Then, correct me if I'm wrong, but then I think he goes into his own mini monologue about the war, the wraith, his people's history, scientists, poets, etc. Ahh! The whole time I'm chanting, "Get your gun!". The guy was old, injured, and clearly distracted as he droned on and on. She apparently has those lightning fast reflexes as seen in Conversion. Use them. ;)

Linzi
January 12th, 2007, 01:24 AM
Not to worry. It was just a 6 month checkup. All was good, and now my pearly whites are both pearly and white. :D

I guess addressing you randomly struck a nerve, huh? Sorry. Won't happen again.



Your enthusiasm and restraint were appreciated in equal measures. Being a fangirl is one of life's little joys. Thanks for the conversation.
Thanks for answering my post honestly. I can't quote specific points because you've answered on my previous quoted post, and it won't let me!!!


Ok, basically, my original question and the answer I gave was correct: that if The Ark had featured scenes with Weir instead of Teyla with Sheppard, then you'd have been singing it's praises:

Quote by SR:

"You're right of course. I didn't look at it that way. My shipper glasses must need adjusting. Or removing. And if this episode had replaced Teyla with Elizabeth, I'd be singing its praises. How's that for honesty? ."

Fair enough, that's what I thought. So, my original assumption was correct, and not untrue or poorly perceived, as some have suggested. Not that I'm saying all shippers would feel the same way as you, obviously.

As for Joe pretending to plant one on Torri at the Con being a publicity stunt instigated by TPTB? Sorry, I just don't buy it. It seemed spontateous and a bit of fun. Torri looked shocked. I think it was Joe having a bit of fun, nothing more. Again, why would TPTB do this? For advertising purposes? Seeing how few people attend Cons or go online and are involved in the fandom - I don't think so. I honestly think you've read far to much into the actions of the actors. Not everything is planned, or designed to frustrate fans.
As for the shipping debates here and on LJ. You know what? Over-analysing leads to mass hysteria sometimes, and sometimes a touch on the arm is just that, nothing more. I touch people to show compassion, even if I don't know them really well - doesn't mean there's anything romantic involved in it at all, actually far from it. So, by saying Shep touched Weir's arm in one episode, and Teyla touched Sheppard's in the end scene of The Ark doesn't mean TPTB are jerking you around, it's just one person comforting or reaching out to another really, could mean something more, and equally it might not. Just think back to the hug in Siege III. MG actually came on line to say 'sometimes a hug is just a hug'. The writers may not intend scenes to be shippy, but some people want to find ship anywhere, and find it when it's genuinely not intended to be there. Therefore it's not fair to blame TPTB if people see different ships and feel they're being jerked around because it's not their ship. You can squint and see anything if you want to.
Quote, SR:
We admit that they intended that ship from day one, but those of us who ship Sparky want them to change their minds because we see much more chemistry between Shep and Weir.
This made me really sad for you. Why? Because it's probably not going to happen. Nobody can change TPTB on any one thing really. TPTB will do what they plan to do, and there's not a lot we can do, and that's right - well except for the cast changes, that's just wrong on so many levels!!!;). If TPTB took into account all of our feelings there'd be no consistency in the show, and it would be a complete mess, IMO. They have to follow their original vision. Yes, some aspects and choices have not been ones I've liked, Irresponsible falls into that area for me, but you can't hope to change their minds to follow your ship, and if you are watching the show, and I don't know if you are or aren't, just to see your ship followed and resolved, then you will be disappointed a lot of the time. They've already stated no ship, and as I said before, what more can they say?
Fanfic is the answer, IMO. :lol:
Anyway, it was good to have this discussion. It's made me understand where your coming from in your feelings towards The Ark, and your feelings generally.
I do think - and I say this as someone who did ship in a mild way for Jack/Sam in SGA, though I wasn't involved in the fandom and didn't even know what ship was back then, I just thought they made a cute couple and saw tonnes of chemistry -that if you are looking for the fulfillment of romantic relationships then the Stargates are not the shows for you. B5? Absolutely. Desperate Housewives? Yes. A scifi action show like SGA? No. It's not designed to be that way.

Night Spring
January 12th, 2007, 01:55 AM
have you seen what Jason Momoa has done with Ronon since he came on board? Serious heavy lifting with minimal lines. Good, solid work that's easily equal to the 'big 3' IMO.

Sadly, I doubt we'll ever get a chance to find out if RL can do the same, since her lines have mostly been cliche and she hasn't had a focused ep since 1st season.
In one sentence you praise Jason for making the most out of minimal lines, and then in the next you lament Rachel having mostly cliched lines.

I think we've had three years of seeing what Rachel can do with minimal / cliched lines, and unfortunately, the answer is "not enough."

Which does not entirely absolve TPTB of the responsiblity for not coming up with enough interesting things for Teyla to do. We've had two episodes this season where Teyla had substantial lines (Echoes and The Ark), and in both, all she did was, well, talk. When is the last time we've seen Teyla take on an opponent in hand-to-hand combat outside the gym? When is the last time we've seen the Athosians, for god's sake? *Do* something with her! ack!

Alipeeps
January 12th, 2007, 02:09 AM
I guess addressing you randomly struck a nerve, huh? Sorry. Won't happen again.

*sigh* No. That implies that you made some kind of insightful comment that hit on some insecurity or some such. The point I was trying to make is that you randomly included me in a sweeping generalisation without giving any concrete reference to why I was included and therefore without giving em opportunity to respond to that. I would have found it equally annoying had you referenced some other user in such a way.

Btw, can I ask that you please type your responses outside of the quote tags of the post you are responding to? When you type in bold inside the quote tags to respond, it means that other users can't use the quote function to reply to your points (as quoted text does not pull through when quoting a post).



It wasn't just this episode. But lately on LJ and in the S/W thread there has been talk of all the times this season when the main two het ships have gotten equal treatment to the point of absurdity. e.g. in Sateda and TRW
Shep touches Teyla's hand and then Elizabeth's in Phantoms and Echoes he carries Teyla and then Elizabeth and the list goes on. Don't you find that to be done on purpose? Maybe as a non-shipper, you don't. That sort of c*** is what annoys shippers to no end. They think they are giving us something for everybody, but what they end up doing is making everybody unhappy.

Again, not referring just to Ark, but even as a S/W shipper I see that the last scene could be shippy if you're a shipper. You're not a shipper so it's not shippy to you. Confused more? LOL. And I agree and have said so on my shipper thread, there has never been any concrete canon ship moment after the cave scene with Shep and Teyla. We admit that they intended that ship from day one, but those of us who ship Sparky want them to change their minds because we see much more chemistry between Shep and Weir. That's the bottom line. It's not what is concrete. It's what we want. Shippers correct me if I misinterpret. In my case, I am a chronic overanalyzer. I know good and dang well that when Shep looks at Weir and raises his eyebrow that no ship was intended, but it's just so much fun to imagine there was. Also shippers tend not to believe what TPTB say about not intending ship. I hear that Chris Carter *curses* said the same thing about Mulder and Scully as did the actors. It's all PR and hype. Remember when Joe kissed Torri at ComicCon? You'll never convince me that wasn't a PR move probably thought up by those evil twins JM and PM who were bookending them at the time. But when you love a ship and think the show would be better for it, it gets frustrating to see another one dangled. Even if it can be interpreted as friendship only. Personally I see John and Teyla as having a Zoe/Mal from Firefly sort of vibe. Boy, that probably made things worse.

You see, I just don't get this. I understand the aspect of watching a show and enjoying a ship and interpreting moments as shippy and loving that. I really do. What I don't get is the feeling that because you like a ship or see a certain ship, TPTB should therefore make it canon. I really don't think TPTB spend half as much time thinking about ship as people think they do and I doubt they write scenes involving Sheppard touching someone's hand with the express intent of it being shippy or of tormenting shippers. So much of ship is in the interpretation - you are stating that TPTB put these scenes in deliberately as shippy moment... but ship is a matter of perspective... where you can interpret a scene as shippy, others will not so how can you possibly judge TPTB's intent? You yourself admit that there is no ship intended in moments that you enjoy interpreting as shippy - I personally love that aspect, that people can take from a scene, from a look etc, whatever they want - and yet at the same time you are complaining that TPTB are deliberately taunting shippers. I seriously doubt that TPTB orchestrated the silly kiss at ComicCon - I guess maybe you're just more cynical than I? I think it's far more likely that Joe, who is not oblivious to the whole ship debate (he gets asked about it at every con!) was having a laugh and a tease, knowing full-well what the reaction would be! :D

I guess I just struggle to understand how you go from enjoying an aspect of a show to feeling that that aspect is the most important element of the show and that the show should be changed because you feel that aspect of the show would improve it. I adore Shep whump but whilst I might complain, mostly in jest, that we don't get enough of it, I don't by any means feel I have any right to expect or demand of TPTB to focus more on whump or to try and push the show in that direction, or that they are deliberately jerking me around by not including more whump or by giving us small tastes of it but not as much as we'd like. You've even stated in your post above that you don't even want to see other "friendships" threaten your ship? So Sheppard can't have any friends? It's gotta be Weir or nothing at all?

Sorry. I'm not trying to be confrontational here, it;s just that I'm really struggling to understand this viewpoint.



I don't really have an opinion on the shippy stuff. I like all the pairings, and will read/watch just about any pairing if the story is good. Plus I know my favorite one is never going to see the light of day because it will be a freezing day in Hades before they pair up the two male leads... which kinda takes the shipper pressure off. I can completely enjoy the show in a gen noromo sort of way, and indulge in 32 flavors and then some of shippery goodness online. As long as they don't deconstruct the main character friendships beyond all hope without repairing them afterwards (I'm looking right at you, Joss Whedon) then I'm good.


They make you unhappy; they don't make everyone unhappy. My OTP is Rodney/Teyla. I highly doubt that my ship will ever be canon, and the producers/writers aren't throwing anything my way. But it doesn't bother me when I see something that can be construed as, say, John/Teyla, because I'm willing to accept explanations other than romance. I think John is a flirt who has deep-seated issues and is incapable of having a functional romantic relationship. So when I see the concern he has for Teyla in "The Ark", I think of it as a team leader showing concern for someone he loves...in a truly platonic way. If other people want to interpret it in a shippy way, they can; I am perfectly capable of ignoring them. I trust that the producers know that main character ship right now would sink the show, and I go off and play in my happy world of fanfiction, where I can see 4 different pairings in half an hour and believe them all.

When I saw that Teyla needed rescue and John would be doing the rescuing, I knew where the John/Teyla shippers were going to take it. That was fine, because I can ignore that. Hell, if I want to post on this site without losing my mind, I have to ignore that. It's like Linzi said; we're all going to see what we want to see. If we analyze everything as ship, then we lose sight of the fact that these people are friends and have a right to express that friendship.

Two excellent posts, thank you. Very much my view on the shippy stuff. I like that the show can be enjoyed from whatever viewpoint... :)



Heehee, I also laughed when the guy said they had one of their planets best poets.... who cares about poets! :P


Well, I guess if you're trying to save an entire culture, you want to try and preserve their artistic legacy too? ;)



The producers don't cater to shippers anymore than they do to whump fans or slash fans. They're aiming for the biggest, broadcast audience they can attain. Action/adventure, drama, maybe a hint of UST (unresolved sexual tension) is what you're going to get on SGA. It's the UST that keep the *viewers* coming back. Resolve it, and you will lose some audience. It's a proven fact.

Leave 'ship' for fan fiction, as that's where it was born.


Indeed. :)


Also, it's not about catering to different fan groups. On Gateworld, the Shep-Weir Ship thread had a million views, by far the most popular ship thread surpassing the thunking and whumping threads. I think it's most popular heterosexual ship on LiveJournal as well.

I don't watch Stargate for relationship drama, but 3 years of unresolved sexual tension becomes boring and stale. Like all good stories, it needs a sense of momentum. Like Southern Red, I am very annoyed by the inability of TPTB to make a decision about ship. They've clearly hinted at different ships and use ship to promote the show. Then, to tell those fans who like ship, "oh, there's nothing shippy there. It's all about friendship." It's rather disrespectful to the audience.

I want to see the characters grow and develop. I'd love to see Elizabeth have a heart-to-heart with John about his need to be so self-sacrificing. I still don't understand John's behavior sometimes; it's just there. :)

I struggle with the idea that because you feel your viewpoint is popular, that somehow TPTB are beholden to that viewpoint and have some obligation to honour it (you, used in the general, plural sense, btw.. ;)). I don't think there is any inability on the part of TPTB to make a decision about ship - I think they purposefully keep the question open as it adds interest and tension to the show and to do otherwise could very possibly alienate a large part of the viewership - those who may enjoy imagining other ships.



For me, so much of this episode just felt sloppy. Teyla losing her gun was one of the worst bits. Seriously, all those Teyla/Sheppard and Teyla/Ronon gym scenes have been to show that Earth modern weapons aren't always necessary in a fight, right? Or have they been there merely to egg on shippers and teenage boys? :S I'm not a shipper or a teenage boy, so I need a reason for these things. This was a perfect opportunity for Teyla to show her stuff, for her to show how her people would handle themselves without a gun. We've seen Teyla's moves. She's awesome! Even without her sticks she should have been able to take out Grandpa. ;)


My take on that is that she was not in any way viewing Jamus as any kind of threat - she was interacting with him on the level of him being an old, injured man in need of sympathy and help.. she had no reason to even suspect her would suddenly grab her gun and turn on her. As for why she didn't simply attack him and take his gun? Aside from the fact that at such close range and with him handling an unfamiliar weapon, there was a high risk of the gun going off by accident and causing serious injury (and/or possibly hitting a window or something and depressuring the compartment?), right up until the end of the episode she empathised with him and felt for his plight and wanted to help him, still trying to convince him that there was a better way...



I wouldn't says it's disrespectful. Maybe such things are NOT intended, some fans simply want them to be. Why should they apologize or make a decision on that? If it's not in line with TPTB's vision for the show, you're notlikely to see it.

Indeed. Much better worded than my attempt above. :lol:



(P.S. And as for shipping on-screen, this ain't Farscape, folks. There is no 'obvious' ship, and as a slasher, I laugh at anyone who gets upset that their ship hasn't been picked yet. Try being us for a day.)

:lol: Love it! :D

Willow'sCat
January 12th, 2007, 02:57 AM
*sigh* Couldn't have put it better. :cool:

Well, I guess if you're trying to save an entire culture, you want to try and preserve their artistic legacy too?I was being sarcastic or stupid or whatever! Sorry I forgot to use the right smilie... oh no I did use the right one... you must have missed it. ;)

I was meaning in the end, art is all fine and well but one person's art is another person's rubbish. ;) And I hate it when scifi shows based in different galaxies paint all planets as having the same culture... Earth doesn't, we have vastly different races and cultures, what one race or culture finds funny others may not, what one person thinks is great music others don't.

It was the blanket statement/inference that he must be that great to be included with the last of his people that made me laugh... no artist is that universally good. I can't think of any, yes there are wonderful pieces of art and poems but do all humans love them? It was an unbelievable and laughable statement to me not to mention so 1960s Star Trek....dripping in cliche.

Alipeeps
January 12th, 2007, 03:09 AM
Couldn't have put it better. :cool:
I was being sarcastic or stupid or whatever! Sorry I forgot to use the right smilie... oh no I did use the right one... you must have missed it. ;)

Nah, I got that. I think I put the same smilie at the end of my reply too? No? :D



I was meaning in the end, art is all fine and well but one person's art is another person's rubbish. ;) And I hate it when scifi shows based in different galaxies paint all planets as having the same culture... Earth doesn't, we have vastly different races and cultures, what one race or culture finds funny others may not, what one person thinks is great music others don't.

It was the blanket statement/inference that he must be that great to be included with the last of his people that made me laugh... no artist is that universally good. I can't think of any, yes there are wonderful pieces of art and poems but do all humans love them? It was an unbelievable and laughable statement to me not to mention so 1960s Star Trek....dripping in cliche.

True enough I guess... although I suppose even on Earth we have cultural icons who are pretty much universally regarded as being great etc.. e.g. Shakespeare?.. the problem being that people only usually achieve that status long after they're dead! :lol:

I get what you say about the diversity of the human race and personal taste etc.. I think possibly the issue here is related to a common thing in Stargate... pretty much every community we meet on travelling through the gate seem to be the only civilisation on their planet. Whereas Earth is an incredibly diverse civilisation with wildly-differing beliefs and ways of life.. we never seem to encounter such civilisations in the show. Much as Earth in the show is represented entirely by (in SG1) the US Goverment or (in SGA) the Atlantis Expedition, the people we meet in episodes seem to represent the entirety of their culture. We rarely get the impression that there are other habitations or civilisations on that planet - just the one city or village! - and everyone we see conforms to a cultural standard, all wearing the same style clothing, style of hairstyle etc.

I suppose it derives from the show's need to readily identify guest characters as members of a specific race/people in the episode. If they all looked as different as we Earthlings do and liked different things, how would be be able to identify all the extras and guest actors on the screen as belonging to "x planet"?

Wow. I seem to have rambled off into an entirely OT philosophical debate there! :D Apols... but thanks for provoking some interesting (at least to me! ;)) thoughts.... :D

Haliyah
January 12th, 2007, 03:29 AM
I, personally, disliked this episode greatly. Maybe it was because of reading too much fanfiction prior to watching the episode, but I'm leaning towards the fact that it just didn't feel like an episode of Atlantis to me. It felt like watching a strange combination of Star Trek VI: The Undiscovered Country, Star Wars, and Mission to Mars. The emphasis being somewhat on Mission to Mars. I'm not sure why. It just immediately reminded me of that movie. Or, even more bizarrely, Event Horizon. Figure that one out...

Anyway...

The interactions between the characters seemed forced; unnatural. Very wooden. Out of place. Awkward. Almost as if they were Replicators trying too hard to act like the people they copied. Rodney seemed very distinctly un-Rodney, somehow, but the emotional reactions from Teyla and Rodney were fantastic. You have no idea how many times I played back the bit where the chunk of debris cracked the window, and Rodney panicked and frantically fumbled with his helmet. The expressions on his face while he surveyed the growing crack and the breathlessly terrified inflections in his voice were simply marvellous. My, but the man can act.

Thus the reason I'm a rabid fangirl. ;)

As for Teyla, I was quite pleased to see that she actually had facial expressions in this one. Well, more than the one she normally has simply repeated, at any rate. Most of the time, I see her as a female Teal'c.

...That smiles occasionally. And uses wry humour.

Also occasionally.

She actually got to branch off a little in this episode, and Rachel actually got more than her usual three slightly taciturn lines and borderline-secondary-character reaction shots to act. There was only one part about her portrayal of Teyla that I didn't like in this episode. The way Teyla was acting at the last scene while in the Infirmary seemed completely out-of-character to me. Much too "earthy," if you ask me. Much too Tau'ri. Either she displayed a shocking amount of absorbed Milky Way personality traits all at once, or Carson gave her the good stuff. I can almost see her starting to use contractions, next.

Ronon's wounded-gorilla pain-squeals were very good, very good indeed. Though, the painful shoulder setting was a bit Lethal Weapon...

Also...Why did they even bother putting Lorne (whom they mistakenly referred to as Captain a couple of times) and Carson in? Yes, yes, I know it was because the Dream Team needed a rescue. But why bring in two actors that you need to pay to say, like, two lines? Woodenly? Why not make it so they'd bothered to anchor the Jumper properly in the dock so it didn't get sucked out into the all-encompassing vacuum of space? It'd probably've cost less...

Now, onto Sheppard.

Well, not so much him, but his uniform.

Combats plus Atlantis equals BAD plus...BAD. Since when does Sheppard wear combats? And, for the love of God, what type are they? They're black. They're cut like the weird combats that the Twinkies get issued at Blackdown CSTC (bonus to you if you know what I'm talking about). They even have a button to keep the sleeves up at the very spot Sheppard's were so messily rolled up to. Now, here's a thought: if they're custom-produced for Atlantis, why aren't all military personnel wearing them?

And...just a thought, but...why did Teyla's infirmary bed seem like it was in the middle of a huge, dark, creepy room? Maybe that's where the Event Horizon thought came from...

Alipeeps
January 12th, 2007, 03:38 AM
Also...Why did they even bother putting Lorne (whom they mistakenly referred to as Captain a couple of times) and Carson in? Yes, yes, I know it was because the Dream Team needed a rescue. But why bring in two actors that you need to pay to say, like, two lines? Woodenly? Why not make it so they'd bothered to anchor the Jumper properly in the dock so it didn't get sucked out into the all-encompassing vacuum of space? It'd probably've cost less...

Because someone needed to come rescue them (even if the jumper wasn't detached, they couldn't get the areas inbetween their compartments repressurised so, other than Rodney in his space-suit, none of them would have been able to get to the jumper. It was only due to Lorne and his cutting/welding tools that they were able to close all the hatches and repressurise. So if you're gonna have someone come to the rescue, you might as well have one of the core cast and a popular recurring character... rather than having to introduce yet another new character. I can't agree that Paul or Kavan's acting was wooden in this ep either but each to their own..

Btw, the couple of times someone was addressed as Captain was, to the best of my knowledge, referring to the un-named pilot flying Lorne and Carson's jumper.

prion
January 12th, 2007, 03:51 AM
Now, onto Sheppard.

Well, not so much him, but his uniform.

Combats plus Atlantis equals BAD plus...BAD. Since when does Sheppard wear combats? And, for the love of God, what type are they? They're black. They're cut like the weird combats that the Twinkies get issued at Blackdown CSTC (bonus to you if you know what I'm talking about). They even have a button to keep the sleeves up at the very spot Sheppard's were so messily rolled up to. Now, here's a thought: if they're custom-produced for Atlantis, why aren't all military personnel wearing them?

[/CENTER][/COLOR]

For those who watch SG1, heck, looks like Shep raided MItchell's closets. I first saw that outfit on Mitchell (dark blue or OD green, maybe both,c an't recall really) in SG1 and the sleeves have always bugged me.

Alipeeps
January 12th, 2007, 04:07 AM
For those who watch SG1, heck, looks like Shep raided MItchell's closets. I first saw that outfit on Mitchell (dark blue or OD green, maybe both,c an't recall really) in SG1 and the sleeves have always bugged me.

Re: the sleeves thing though... I suspect that's a Joe-ism (to invent a new word! :D) as every time we see him wearing a shirt, he has the sleeves rolled up (see Conversion and The Return Part 2 for examples in the show and London Expo photos - and those of any other con where he wore a shirt - for real-life examples!) :D

Reaceania
January 12th, 2007, 04:34 AM
I'm finally back to post My thoughts on the ep.

This was a good science fiction episode for me and kind of broke out of the SG mould. I like episodes that do that and indeed most of my favorite SG stories have something to distinguish them for me. I liked the story and I’ve got to say I was touched by Herrick’s story.

I am particularly fond of the set, the lighting, the music and the way it was shot. It’s funny that in many of the eps I like, the music is a big part of it. I’m not sure if I’m noticing the music more because I like the episode or the music just happens to be particularly brilliant in the episodes I really like. I loved the opening few seconds. While the episode didn’t have me quite on the edge of my seat like I think it did for some, those opening few seconds did make me sit up in anticipation of what was to come. I’m really glad it was there and that the episode didn’t just start with the moon shot and Shep/Rodney walking through the station. And yay for a society that doesn’t look like a Dutch village ;)

I liked that the lines in the ep that could be taken by me as humourous weren’t overtly so. e.g.,
“It’s time for the how screwed we are report” got a giggle out of me. *please someone incorporate that into a sig.* Which of course brings me to Rodney. I loved how he went from being like a kid in a candy store in the beginning through to his normal pessimistic self in the middle to his normal compensatory optimistic self in the end. I loved Rodney in this episode, but then I love him even when he’s trying my patience and being tactless.

I think one of the bits I liked the most in the ep. was that the “We don’t leave our people behind” riff was peppered throughout the episode. Not just in “our people” but with Jamus as well. I particularly liked the parallel. Jamus also didn’t care if he lived or died but he wasn’t prepared to leave his people behind either. He’d have done anything to save them and in many respect his stakes were higher than for “Team Sheppard”. His society had gambled so much on this final move. How desperate must they have been to have taken the steps they did? How worn down and decimated by the Wraith must they have been to have chosen this option … scary. It makes me wonder what Sheppard or any of the others would’ve done had they been in Jamus’ position and had the people in the module been the last humans on Earth and included say (insert_your_most_important_1000_people_here).Would they have done anything to ensure the survival of the collection? Actually by far my favorite part of dialogue in this ep was hearing Jamus explain to Herick what had happened. I was totally engrossed.

The gaffs (e.g., snickers wrapper etc) in there seemed too obvious to be accidents. They got a giggle out of me too only because I thought tptb were having fun with the fans. .. though maybe they weren't.

I know some people have commented about the similarities between this and Lifeboat but I personally don’t get that vibe. But then I also don’t get the Assuran’s are a rehash of the replicators angle either. I see them as different. I think its always possible to see similarities if you want to look for them and some will have more than others, but you can also look for the differences. At least I try to do that too.

It was nice to see Teyla get something with more substance to say and do, rather than being relegated to the background. I liked that element of the episode and I thought RL looked particularly lovely in the ep. And the shallow superficial part of me liked her hair up like that. Though, given I’d like the character to stick around, I’d personally like Teyla to be a little more cautious about making really sudden moves when someone has a gun on her though (I’m speaking about what I perceived to be her quick moves when removing the radio from her vest), though I guess maybe she figured the guy didn’t know how to remove the safety (?) or it was simply an oversight.

Speaking of luck brings me to the luckiest guy in two galaxies. Loved JF in the ep. Sheppard’s response to Ronon resetting his shoulder and Ronon’s, “You still owe me a fight to the death” were great, and not to forget the shuttle ride. I hope that Sheppard got someone to buy him a lottery ticket back on earth after this one so he can try and cash in on that luck. I’ve gotta say that the shallow superficial part of me has got to comment that I liked Sheppard’s change in attire. He can rescue me any day. ;)

It was also nice to see Lorne and I liked his contribution to the ep. I’m rather fond of Lorne.

I also liked that Weir was sitting on Teyla’s bed when Sheppard walked in. There was such familiarity and comfort in their body language and that probably said more to me about the relationship between Weir and Teyla than half a page of dialogue ever would. Actually, I liked the moments between all four (Beckett, Teyla, Weir and Sheppard) of them here. I think it emphasized the cohension and bond between them as a unit, though I will add since this has been raised earlier in the thread that I personally don’t see anything I'd take as a “ship” moment (as in a romantic relationship) here, though I can understand why others might. I think that is usually largely in the eye of the beholder. It was though (for me) a great friendship/camaraderie moment all round. I like to see those moments. I particularly liked RL in this scene.

Bits I have my reservations about

I’m not quite sure why Teyla went from, what I thought was a smart move in this instance, lying that they’d be able to get the module out in order to reassure and calm Jamus, to … at the crucial moment essentially admitting that they wouldn’t be able to. I can understand something was needed in the storyline to push Jamus over the edge, but this move seemed a little weird to me and at odds with what had been said between them earlier. Maybe I’ll get a different take on that when I re-watch it.


I think part of me would have liked for Sheppard to have negotiated differently in order to resolve the situation with Jamus. I was expecting him to come out with anything to resolve it. You know, “we’ll do whatever we can to help you get your people off the moon“ (though I don’t think Jamus would’ve accepted that either) or ‘Rodney’s in the shuttle patching up the shuttle power as we speak” (or whatever). But then the guy was under pressure and I guess if that had worked we would’ve lost the ending … so I’ll cut him some slack for that. ;) Maybe I should just go watch it again. ;)

With the exception of the scene at Teyla’s bedside I was little disappointed with the lack of Weir. But it’s not this ep per se, I can handle an occasional ep with little substantive Weir (Sateda is possibly my fav ep from the season and she was in that only briefly) but rather that there seems to have been a few more of them lately than normal. When you add them together it’s a bit of a let down. And before what I say gets taken the wrong way it’s really not a question of the amount of screen time as such, but the quality of it e.g., I’d rather take a little good stuff than having her say hello/goodbye for 40 min ;) But these things oscillate across eps so I can handle that if it means she’s got stuff to do in upcoming eps.

Overall, I really liked the ep, so kudos to the cast, Ken Cuperus, Martin Wood, Scott Nimerfro, Joel Goldsmith, Neal Acree, the ghosty other TPTBs that were involved, et al.

*breath*...now I need a cup of tea.

Skythe
January 12th, 2007, 04:45 AM
This episode really impressed me. I'm quite the cynic for stuff like this but i just found it interesting.

Southern Red
January 12th, 2007, 04:51 AM
Thanks for answering my post honestly.

Just think back to the hug in Siege III. MG actually came on line to say 'sometimes a hug is just a hug'. The writers may not intend scenes to be shippy, but some people want to find ship anywhere, and find it when it's genuinely not intended to be there. Therefore it's not fair to blame TPTB if people see different ships and feel they're being jerked around because it's not their ship. You can squint and see anything if you want to.

If TPTB took into account all of our feelings there'd. be no consistency in the show, and it would be a complete mess, IMO. They have to follow their original vision.

They've already stated no ship, and as I said before, what more can they say?

Anyway, it was good to have this discussion. It's made me understand where your coming from in your feelings towards The Ark, and your feelings generally.




This discussion even though seriously OT and beginning to annoy some people ;) I feel has been very valuable in helping the shippers and nonshippers understand each other. Other posters on this thread have been so much more articulate, and okay, less emotional, than I. Kudos to them.

LOL on the MG/hug fiasco. Didn't you feel the earth tremors from the reaction on the S/W thread to his "hug is just a hug" speech. In fact I think it was RL or maybe PM who later told a story that they were supposed to hug but TPTB got cold feet at the thoughts of the shipper reaction. I find that hilarious. In reality Carson should be hugging lots of people. And everybody should be hugging Carson. :( Who BTW became a regular due to fan reaction, so they do take that into account when it suits them. And ignore it when it doesn't. :( As others have explained, TPTB say no ship, but the thing is that we don't exactly believe them. Again goes to perception.



So much of ship is in the interpretation - you are stating that TPTB put these scenes in deliberately as shippy moment... but ship is a matter of perspective... where you can interpret a scene as shippy, others will not so how can you possibly judge TPTB's intent? You yourself admit that there is no ship intended in moments that you enjoy interpreting as shippy - I personally love that aspect, that people can take from a scene, from a look etc, whatever they want - and yet at the same time you are complaining that TPTB are deliberately taunting shippers.

I guess I just struggle to understand how you go from enjoying an aspect of a show to feeling that that aspect is the most important element of the show and that the show should be changed because you feel that aspect of the show would improve it. I adore Shep whump but whilst I might complain, mostly in jest, that we don't get enough of it, I don't by any means feel I have any right to expect or demand of TPTB to focus more on whump or to try and push the show in that direction, or that they are deliberately jerking me around by not including more whump or by giving us small tastes of it but not as much as we'd like. You've even stated in your post above that you don't even want to see other "friendships" threaten your ship? So Sheppard can't have any friends? It's gotta be Weir or nothing at all?

Sorry. I'm not trying to be confrontational here, it;s just that I'm really struggling to understand this viewpoint.



Hmmm? You're right. I do contradict myself. Thanks for making me see that. I want what I want I guess. I do believe they deliberately taunt shippers because they believe it keeps us watching. Cynical, I know but really, otherwise, it looks like things just accidentally happen. Though if you listen to the commentaries, it sometimes seems they are clueless as to how things come across. So you may be right. *runs away in confusion*

I see where my statement about friendship could be misinterpreted. I didn't mean he can't have friends. I love the developing big brother vibe he's got going with Teyla. And if I wasn't a shipper of him with Weir, I would enjoy it more. ;) That's what I meant. If they didn't toy with the shippy angle, I'd be able to relax and root for their friendship. I'm sure some of the other shippers would love to feel the same way about Weir. It's just what shippers do and part of why the non-shippers like yourself don't get us.

Thanks again. Maybe I'll come over and let you guys try to explain whump. It would certainly be less frustrating than being a shipper. :)

Sorry to all those who hate this whole line of OT chatter. I think we're done now.

prion
January 12th, 2007, 05:20 AM
Re: the sleeves thing though... I suspect that's a Joe-ism (to invent a new word! :D) as every time we see him wearing a shirt, he has the sleeves rolled up (see Conversion and The Return Part 2 for examples in the show and London Expo photos - and those of any other con where he wore a shirt - for real-life examples!) :D

Oh, no, not the way Joe wears his sleeves, I just meant the length of those sleeveson the uniform bugs me. On guys, short sleeves or long sleeves. Anything in between and I think of geeky office workers in those short-sleeve shirts ;) Because the sleeves on that uniform are that length (you need to go find an SG1 with Mitchell wearing the same uniform).

Flowerbud
January 12th, 2007, 07:33 AM
*sigh*
You see, I just don't get this. I understand the aspect of watching a show and enjoying a ship and interpreting moments as shippy and loving that. I really do. What I don't get is the feeling that because you like a ship or see a certain ship, TPTB should therefore make it canon. I really don't think TPTB spend half as much time thinking about ship as people think they do and I doubt they write scenes involving Sheppard touching someone's hand with the express intent of it being shippy or of tormenting shippers. So much of ship is in the interpretation - you are stating that TPTB put these scenes in deliberately as shippy moment... but ship is a matter of perspective... where you can interpret a scene as shippy, others will not so how can you possibly judge TPTB's intent? You yourself admit that there is no ship intended in moments that you enjoy interpreting as shippy - I personally love that aspect, that people can take from a scene, from a look etc, whatever they want - and yet at the same time you are complaining that TPTB are deliberately taunting shippers. I seriously doubt that TPTB orchestrated the silly kiss at ComicCon - I guess maybe you're just more cynical than I? I think it's far more likely that Joe, who is not oblivious to the whole ship debate (he gets asked about it at every con!) was having a laugh and a tease, knowing full-well what the reaction would be! :D


I'm not speaking for Southern Red, but this is my response. You appear to be stating that shippers should be satisfied with scenes that can still be construed as friendship. But, the writers and producers of SGA from the beginning intended to do a romantic relationship. That is a fact. In this day and age of television, men and women have romantic relationships and work together as equals and it is not considered an unusual phenomenon. This can be observed on action adventure science fiction shows such as Firefly and Enterprise.

It's disingenous to state that TPTB are not trying to entice the audience that likes ship. They use romantic scenes like a kiss in their promotion of the show and in goosing audiences at cons. If ship were not so popular, why do JoeF and the producers always get questioned about it and why wouldn't JoeF give a stage kiss to Joe Mallozi or the actor who plays Steven Caldwell. The writers and producers know perfectly well that ship is very popular and they try to use that to pull in a greater audience. And it's not simply in the writing. Martin Gero may have teasingly been saying "a hug is just a hug", but clearly the manner in which that scene was filmed and edited with the camera sweeping around the couple and the music swelling suggests otherwise. Our complaints with TPTB are that vague, teasing ships becomes tedious and annoying when there is no forward movement with the ship or when the same treatment is given to two different couples.


I guess I just struggle to understand how you go from enjoying an aspect of a show to feeling that that aspect is the most important element of the show and that the show should be changed because you feel that aspect of the show would improve it. I adore Shep whump but whilst I might complain, mostly in jest, that we don't get enough of it, I don't by any means feel I have any right to expect or demand of TPTB to focus more on whump or to try and push the show in that direction, or that they are deliberately jerking me around by not including more whump or by giving us small tastes of it but not as much as we'd like. You've even stated in your post above that you don't even want to see other "friendships" threaten your ship? So Sheppard can't have any friends? It's gotta be Weir or nothing at all?

I think you are misunderstanding what Southern Red is saying. Shipping is not whumping. Shipping is a story about a romantic relationship that allows greater freedom in characterization. It is not something you have in one episode and then pretend never happened in the next episode. There has to be a narrative drive. There have been too many false starts and dropped starts in SGA. I feel that you write about our concerns as if the shippers are having a tantrum and to just get over it. SR never implied that because a character is in a relationship means they drop all the other friendships. As an audience member, the shippers have just as much right to express their point of view, even if you don't want to hear it.




I struggle with the idea that because you feel your viewpoint is popular, that somehow TPTB are beholden to that viewpoint and have some obligation to honour it (you, used in the general, plural sense, btw.. ;)). I don't think there is any inability on the part of TPTB to make a decision about ship - I think they purposefully keep the question open as it adds interest and tension to the show and to do otherwise could very possibly alienate a large part of the viewership - those who may enjoy imagining other ships.


I don't think they are beholden or obligated to me or any fan group. TPTB will follow their creative impulses, but I'm certain that they consider objective facts when planning and writing a season. The show is teetering on cancellation. That strategy of keeping all possible ships open to create tension only works for a few seasons. That gets boring quickly. Audiences are a lot more fickle and less loyal these days. Short of doing market studies, I think the shipper component is a large part of the audience from looking at the Gateworld numbers. My gut instinct is that they are getting close to alienating the shipper audience. It's been three years adn still no ship chosen and no momentum with developing that ship. That's frustrating.

At this point in time, I've only been watching SGA b/c I love the 3 main actors (JF, TH, DH) and their interactions and the chemistry between John and Elizabeth. In terms of science-fiction action adventure, it's been iffy for me. I probably won't watch the Ark when it airs on SciFi b/c posters whose judgment I trust gave it low ratings and there's very little Elizabeth, my favorite character, in it.

stewsith
January 12th, 2007, 08:04 AM
I didnt enjoy this episode very much to be honest with you. The story was not engaging enough and it was similar to SG1's lifeboat. :(

prion
January 12th, 2007, 08:37 AM
I'm not speaking for Southern Red, but this is my response. You appear to be stating that shippers should be satisfied with scenes that can still be construed as friendship. But, the writers and producers of SGA from the beginning intended to do a romantic relationship.

Before we all go squabbling over that, could you point toward the quote from TPTB indicating that a romantic relationship was planned? I do recall reading that they didn't plan to do any 'ship' per se in SGA but haven't seen any quotes from the writers stating that romances between the leads were planned.

The thing is that fans are going to see what they want. A glance, a touch, can be construed as friendship, or more, depending upon what the viewer wants to see. That's what a lot of TV is all about. I don't consider any kiss that Sheppard gave either Teyla or Weir to be 'ship' as in those instances, he was under the retrovirus influence and in the other instance, an alien-possessed Weir kissed him.

The only established 'ship' I've seen was with Beckett and Cadman, and perhaps McKay and Katie Brown, but we don't know where that's headed, if anywhere.

But in "The Ark," I didn't see that last moment with Teyla and Sheppard as 'ship' (romance) but of friendship.

Chailyn
January 12th, 2007, 08:37 AM
My take on that is that she was not in any way viewing Jamus as any kind of threat - she was interacting with him on the level of him being an old, injured man in need of sympathy and help.. she had no reason to even suspect her would suddenly grab her gun and turn on her. As for why she didn't simply attack him and take his gun? Aside from the fact that at such close range and with him handling an unfamiliar weapon, there was a high risk of the gun going off by accident and causing serious injury (and/or possibly hitting a window or something and depressuring the compartment?), right up until the end of the episode she empathised with him and felt for his plight and wanted to help him, still trying to convince him that there was a better way...

I agree with you about her motives. She did feel sorry for him and empathised with his story. But, this is exactly the part of Teyla's character I simply cannot buy. If a guy had just told me that he had nuked his own people, killing hundreds of thousands, people he saw everyday, I don't think I could be so arrogant as to assume that anything I said, no matter how heartfelt, would change his mind. He killed his own people for the 'greater good', his entire life is hanging on the hope that he can rationalize his actions. And he's going to listen to Teyla, a woman he's spent a few hours with at most? What can she possibly say to him? :weiranime33:

She should have analyzed the situation for what is was and responded accordingly. Sure, her empathy makes her look sweet and kind, but she's a leader and a warrior, right? You don't always get to be sweet and kind. She needed to make a judgment call here. Sometimes the best option doesn't involve hearts and puppy dogs. She couldn't make the tough decision. She let her empathy and emotions get in the way, and it had consequences.

And, I really don't have a problem with a character having a strong sense of empathy. I thought Deanna Troi was a fine character, for who she was. She felt sorry for people and was sweet and kind, but it often got her into trouble, with one of the boys having to rescue her. That's fine. That's the character. But, from what I hear, Teyla is not supposed to be Troi, even though she's developed the "I sense danger" feature.

:sigh: Teyla desperately needs her own episode, so that I can resolve some of this. I don't follow her much in fandom, so I need to know who this girl is. I know many wonderful people have nicely defined Teyla in fandom, but I would like to see some of that on screen. If TPTB can do for Teyla what her fans have done, then I'll probably be singing her praises too. :)

Haliyah
January 12th, 2007, 08:44 AM
Btw, the couple of times someone was addressed as Captain was, to the best of my knowledge, referring to the un-named pilot flying Lorne and Carson's jumper.


Hmmm. I thought Carson flew them there.

*goes off to re-watch, and hopes she will hate it less in daylight*

Flowerbud
January 12th, 2007, 08:56 AM
Before we all go squabbling over that, could you point toward the quote from TPTB indicating that a romantic relationship was planned? I do recall reading that they didn't plan to do any 'ship' per se in SGA but haven't seen any quotes from the writers stating that romances between the leads were planned.

The thing is that fans are going to see what they want. A glance, a touch, can be construed as friendship, or more, depending upon what the viewer wants to see. That's what a lot of TV is all about. I don't consider any kiss that Sheppard gave either Teyla or Weir to be 'ship' as in those instances, he was under the retrovirus influence and in the other instance, an alien-possessed Weir kissed him.

The only established 'ship' I've seen was with Beckett and Cadman, and perhaps McKay and Katie Brown, but we don't know where that's headed, if anywhere.

But in "The Ark," I didn't see that last moment with Teyla and Sheppard as 'ship' (romance) but of friendship.

I don't have a quote but I'm pretty certain that a romance was planned between Sheppard and Teyla and promoted in the publicity for The Rising, the series opener. I remember reading a promotion article for SGA discussing the ship. The Sheyla fans may have that in their archives.

I understand what you are conveying about there not being an official ship. And neither "kisses" can be construed as making its respective ship official, but if everything is supposed to be friendship, why do they have such scenes if not to goose the shippers. That's what I take issue with. Don't do this half-hearted, namby-pamby sort of ship b/c it eventually alienates the shipper audience. Shippers aren't stupid. We will just give up on the show.

Pegasus_SGA
January 12th, 2007, 09:40 AM
Yes, Teyla may be civilian, but she IS bound by military rules. She IS under Sheppard's command and must follow his lead while on missions. Just as on SG1 where Daniel, while a civilian, still had to obey O'Neill's orders. As for romantic overtones, no CO can be "involved" with a team member (even a civilian under him) as in a case of "the mission or the mistress", he may choose the GF over orders, which is why the military is so strict in this regard. I say this because some shippers want Shep and Teyla together, but if that happened, she could not be going on missions with him. Its just common sense.

From my pov, she respects his decisions, and that's why she chooses to follow his lead, not because she has to. I agree that each team has a command structure, what that is in SGA, i've no idea, lol. But irrespective of that she is non military, she is an alien and is not constrained to the rules of the military. Heck is this even covered in the frat regs, lol? TBH, I don't see ship with them...sorry. I find it hard to answer your post because I don't see any shippiness. I see friendship, family and respect...that's all. I know others perceive it differently...heck I was an SJ shipper, so I completely understand their pov. But with SGA I don't see it. Heck I don't think I would if someone hit me over the head with a sledgehammer, lol. But I can see how it can be interpreted that way. The little touches here and there, hugs and what not.. and to be honest I'm fine with that. If people see ship in episodes who am I to say they don't? *shrugs*


Actually, if we want to nit-pik, Sheppard, as Commander of all Atlantis military personnel (and technically in Hammond's position as military CO), shouldn't be going out on missions either. Off world missions should be delegated to team leaders, not the CO (as in ST-TNG where Picard rarely went off world). Of course SG1 has an Air Force advisor reviewing scripts, while SGA does not, which may explain why O'Neill, Mitchell, and Carter feel more like true soldiers, while Sheppard runs around unshaven, with bedhead and behaves more like a freelancer at times. He may be a Lt. Col., but he doesn't always feel like one.

I understand where your coming from, and yes he is the military leader, but he's not the one who's in charge overall, Weir is, and she has overuled him many times, even to the point of telling him he can't go off world and he respected her decision, because she is in the grand scheme of things in charge overall...just like Hammond, I see Sheppard as O'Neills opposite in SGA... *slaps self, nope not going to compare, lol* I agree with the points you made, but this is a whole new world, Sheppard is there to protect civilians and he feels that he can accomplish that better by going off world than staying in Atlantis, that's his choice as the military commander. with regards to the soldier thing, the only one who is military is Sheppard and while you may see the hair and the beard as a problem...I don't. As long as he gets the job done, why does he have to have a perfect appearance? He looked perfectly shaven in the Ark (desperately trying to stay on topic, but not having much luck, lol), and in the majority of eps I've seen him in...but I digress....



Let's play "Name the Episode", okay?

The scenario: Our team finds a derelict ship with the last survivors of a dead race. These survivors have had themselves downloaded to survive longer. The caretaker revives and is devasatated to discover what has happened to family. Name it? It is the backdrop to both "Lifeboat" and "The Ark". There ARE differences in the 2nd half of the episodes, but you can see why SG1 viewers would be angry, especially after "Progeny".

I can see where you're coming from, but these two episodes are different, rehashes of sci fi plots have been happening for years, and it is difficult to come up with an original concept I agree. TBH I can't remember lifeboat much. But if you're going to compare then you have to compare all of it, and i'm sorry but it is different. Similarities, yes, but that's where it ends. I must've missed the whole angry Progeny thing...sorry, so I don't understand the reference you've made.


Just a little side note. :) Ronon actually has initiated several hugs with his team. He hugged Carson in Sateda, he hugged John in Return Part 1, and he hugged Rodney at the end of Tao. Those are all ones that he initiated. The big guy's getting more touchy-feely. :)

My bad, yep you're absolutely right. Lol the hug in the return part 1 was an adlib, lol, but yes you're right about Sateda and at the end of Tao...can't believe I forgot about that, and I'm usually so observant when it comes to hugs lol. I think his emotions tend to come to the forefront when he's at his weakest, which is really sweet becasue we get to see the true Ronon underneath his ruff exterior and I like that he has depth :) I think the whole team (except maybe Teyla) all are dysfunctional when it comes to their feelings, but it was nice to see the concern from Rodney in this, and Ronon's 'You owe me a fight to the death' :D If TPTB arre listening...I want to see that :) It'd be like Han Solo fighting Chewbacca, lol.


Lol! When you think about it, it seems very in-character that Ronon would be more comfortable hugging all the guys. He's an army-bond, buddy-buddy, we-are-manly-men type of guy. Were he to hug Teyla or Elizabeth, I think it would be quite monumental. Actually, I'd like to see Teyla hug someone too. Her hug is the head-thing, but I want to see her just reach out and hug someone. Hell, even John. I don't care. I think it would be quite a moment for her too.

I don't know where I was going with that, but it's on my wishlist now. :cool:

Hehehe, yeah I agree with you there. I don't know where you were going either, but thanks for the ride I had a nice time :)


As for McKay getting a lot of episodes/moments for himself. Take a look at David Hewlett. Seriously. He runs rings around everyone. The man can take a script that's average and turn it into something amazing. His chemistry with the rest of the cast is unequalled. That's why he gets so much screen time. He can do anything they ask of him.

I agree and the writers have said on commentaries how easy it is to write for him. I think in this ep he was toned down quite a bit, not so much manic. And I liked how they wrote him in the Ark, snarky, concerned and tactless, lol :) but that's what I like about him, so really not complaining.



The Instinct comment was morea case of John being reckless (don't go off after the enemy without a wingman! Military 101, Johnny.), and she was right in telling Ronon to go after him.{/quote]

Yep, completely agree. She does tell him he's wrong when it's warranted, she did the same in The Hot Zone.

I cut the rest of your post, but only because I agreed with everything you said :D

[quote=LoveConquers;6187956]IIn Atlantis, she calls herself and Elizabeth and John leaders. And they see her as that way in return as well by also referring to her as a leader. She is then in the role of ambassador, and all are equal. For me, any deferment only comes when she steps into military uniform and adapts that unofficial, yet official role and respectfully follows his lead. By choice.

So in my opinion, you can't really blanket this team. Their multiple roles are far more unique for that.

Very well put.


I'd hate to see SGA fandom dissovle into some of the bitterness and rancor I've seen in *some* parts of SG1 fandom because of the S/J ship thing; it's been drawn out so long some fans are just totally disgusted.

As i've said before, I've not seen ship in SGA, but others do, and I agree that's one thing I could never understand about the SG1 Fandom, and people split off, and things get ugly. I would hate to see that happen with SGA.


Does everybody in the PG have intertial dampeners[/QUOTE

Sorry to be dense, but what's PG?

[quote]
ANd what did the 1,000 people 'reintegrated' do for food, water, etc. on such a barren world?


Weir was shipping supplies to them on the planet, she mentioned it at the end of the ep.


Did like the end scene with Teyla and Shep in the infirmary.... "Yes, I think even for Rodney," says Teyla to which Shep grumbles "Maybe." Aw........

I gushed at that scene to :) Especially the whole...'Don't be feeling special' *giggles*


Like Southern Red, I am very annoyed by the inability of TPTB to make a decision about ship. They've clearly hinted at different ships and use ship to promote the show. Then, to tell those fans who like ship, "oh, there's nothing shippy there. It's all about friendship." It's rather disrespectful to the audience.

I don't think they do it intentionally, it's to advance the characters and add depths. Don't you hug and kiss your friends or co-workers *looks around for support* Please say i'm not the only one to do those things, lol.... okay swiftly moving on ;)


I want to see the characters grow and develop. I'd love to see Elizabeth have a heart-to-heart with John about his need to be so self-sacrificing. I still don't understand John's behavior sometimes; it's just there. :)

I don't mind who it is that does that, but I agree it would be nice to see.


I did not, at all, from what was put on the screen, get that Sheppard was going on a suicide mission. However, I know I'm not the only one who didn't see this. If something as monumental as Sheppard's death is going to be proposed (and taken seriously) then it really has to be clear for the entire audience so that the entire audience can feel the impact of that event. I shouldn't have to come onto a fansite to get it.

I can understand where you're coming from, again it maybe because I overanalyze the ep so much that I see things that some people maybe don't pick up. But yep agreed for someone who doesn't come online I can understand how they may not have picked it up as a suicide mission, but in the grand scheme of things..does it matter that it was or it wasn't?


Sheppard's death has more consequences than just the loss of one man, but because of the way it was handled it never entered my mind that Sheppard would need to be replaced. "Take care of my people" or even "Don't let Caldwell screw things up." That's all that was needed to be said. Maybe a salute. No crying. I can't see either of those guys crying. :)

Hehehe, I can so see him saying that about Caldwell, lol. No, defiantely no crying, lol, but I have to say it's attractive seeing a man cry...in a weird sorta way :)

Lol, i'm running out of space on this thing, so i'll continue on another post....sorry, I obviously didn't take notice of curbing my enthusiasm, lol.

Night Spring
January 12th, 2007, 10:29 AM
First, about that unnamed pilot who was flying the puddle jumper, I do recall someone (I think it was Rodney) calling him "Captain," and I also wondered what he was doing there, as both Carson and Lorne have the ancient gene and can fly the jumper. Nothing against the actor, he did a very good job, but that was one extra they could have done without! *g*


I agree with you about her motives. She did feel sorry for him and empathised with his story. But, this is exactly the part of Teyla's character I simply cannot buy. If a guy had just told me that he had nuked his own people, killing hundreds of thousands, people he saw everyday, I don't think I could be so arrogant as to assume that anything I said, no matter how heartfelt, would change his mind. He killed his own people for the 'greater good', his entire life is hanging on the hope that he can rationalize his actions. And he's going to listen to Teyla, a woman he's spent a few hours with at most? What can she possibly say to him?
Ah, you've put your finger on why that scene felt so off to me. Rachel poured her soul into that scene, yet it felt wrong... And it's like you say, trying to talk sense to a guy who was so obviously beyond reason. All Teyla's speech did was to provide moral commentary on the situation -- it stopped the action, rather than forward it.


I understand what you are conveying about there not being an official ship. And neither "kisses" can be construed as making its respective ship official, but if everything is supposed to be friendship, why do they have such scenes if not to goose the shippers. That's what I take issue with.
I totally agree. If TPTB really intend to do no ship at all, don't throw in those scenes with the main characters kissing each other while under the influence of whatever. Or while they are having dreams/hallucinating like they did a Sam/Jack kiss in SG-1. Or toss in AUs where Sam and Jack are married/engaged -- hm, I predict an AU down the line somewhere with Weir / Shep or Shep / Teyla married to each other! :D

I have no problems with the show itself staying romance-free. As a slasher, I like it that way! But I totally feel with the shippers' frustrations at having their favorite ship dangled in front of them without ever having things followed through, and I wish TPTB would stop doing that. Just write great friendships all around, including touching and hugs when the situation calls for it, and let everyone see what they want where they want.

Alipeeps
January 12th, 2007, 10:30 AM
I'm not speaking for Southern Red, but this is my response. You appear to be stating that shippers should be satisfied with scenes that can still be construed as friendship. But, the writers and producers of SGA from the beginning intended to do a romantic relationship. That is a fact. In this day and age of television, men and women have romantic relationships and work together as equals and it is not considered an unusual phenomenon. This can be observed on action adventure science fiction shows such as Firefly and Enterprise.

I didn't say shippers should be satisfed with scenes that can be construed as friendship - I said that shipping is a matter of interpretation and different people will interpret things different ways and just because you see a certain scene or moment as shippy doesn't mean others will. I know it's been mentioned before that TPTB originally intended to ship Sheppard and Teyla but I've never seen confirmation of that and, if it is the case, they have obviously changed their minds since. From the past 3 years it's pretty obvious to me that they are not intending to do a romantic relationship - and doing so in TV has a bad history of ruining the show. On shows where it does work, the characters are either already a couple before the show begins or their becoming a couple becomes part of the ongoing plot of the show.. Stargate in general is not known for long, on-going plots (unlike B5 for example) and we all know about the big re-set button.



It's disingenous to state that TPTB are not trying to entice the audience that likes ship. They use romantic scenes like a kiss in their promotion of the show and in goosing audiences at cons. If ship were not so popular, why do JoeF and the producers always get questioned about it and why wouldn't JoeF give a stage kiss to Joe Mallozi or the actor who plays Steven Caldwell. The writers and producers know perfectly well that ship is very popular and they try to use that to pull in a greater audience. And it's not simply in the writing. Martin Gero may have teasingly been saying "a hug is just a hug", but clearly the manner in which that scene was filmed and edited with the camera sweeping around the couple and the music swelling suggests otherwise. Our complaints with TPTB are that vague, teasing ships becomes tedious and annoying when there is no forward movement with the ship or when the same treatment is given to two different couples.

I also never said TPTB are not aware of shippiness or not using it to their advantage. It is an accepted fact that UST makes for good television. Just about every show has it to some degree and TPTB are not stupid enough to ignore that. What I do disagree with is the idea that they are deliberately teasing and "jerking around" the shippers by refusing to confirm any one ship. I doubt they even think about shipping in that much detail. UST is good for the show and they are happy to include it but if you think there is some secret, cynical plot to aggravate shippers then I think you over-estimate the importance of shippers (not UST but specifically shippers - those who want and clamour for a specific relationship to be confirmed) in the show's viewership. I also never said that shipping wasn't popular - but that doesn't mean that TPTB are or should be trying to appeal solely to shippers.. they want as broad an audience as possible.

Again, I have to point out that shippiness is very much a matter of interpretation - in your description above you make the hug sound like some Mills&Boon moment with surging violins and crashing waves... I didn't see that at all. I saw a very sweet, emotionally charged moment between two people who had grown close and had thought each other to be dead. I can see how it can be interpreted as shippy or as not and I'm fine with people taking it either way. But you still seem to feel TPTB have some secret agenda when it comes to shipping and that they are deliberately teasing you by including shippery moments - despite the fact that it is only in your perception that these moments are shippy. And when TPTB themselves state that it was not intended to be shippy, you choose to suspect or disregard that statement as it doesn't mesh nicely with your beliefs.

I have no idea what to make of your comment about JoeF kissing Mitch Pileggi at a con cos I can't work out quite what you're trying to say or prove with that comment?



I think you are misunderstanding what Southern Red is saying. Shipping is not whumping. Shipping is a story about a romantic relationship that allows greater freedom in characterization. It is not something you have in one episode and then pretend never happened in the next episode. There has to be a narrative drive. There have been too many false starts and dropped starts in SGA. I feel that you write about our concerns as if the shippers are having a tantrum and to just get over it. SR never implied that because a character is in a relationship means they drop all the other friendships. As an audience member, the shippers have just as much right to express their point of view, even if you don't want to hear it.

My analogy of my interest in whump was exactly what I intended it to be. Shipping is an area of interest in the show for some fans. Whump is another. On that basis, no one group of fans has any more right to expect their preferred area of interest to be given more precedence than another. I don't think you're having a tantrum, I just find it hard to understand why you would judge everything about the show through one narrow view and find the show overall lacking because it doesn't give you what YOU want in terms of that narrow viewpoint. It seems to me that your argument here is that eventually shippers will abandon the show if it doesn't provide them with confirmed ship - suggesting that ship is all you watch it for. I love whump and would admittedly be upset to never have any again but I would still watch the show because I love the characters and the stories and all of it. My particular interests and preferences are just a part of that. As are yours. And I never suggested you have no right to express them. Where I do take issue is when people feel they have the right to demand that TPTB take note of their preferences and alter the show to suit them.



I don't think they are beholden or obligated to me or any fan group. TPTB will follow their creative impulses, but I'm certain that they consider objective facts when planning and writing a season. The show is teetering on cancellation. That strategy of keeping all possible ships open to create tension only works for a few seasons. That gets boring quickly. Audiences are a lot more fickle and less loyal these days. Short of doing market studies, I think the shipper component is a large part of the audience from looking at the Gateworld numbers. My gut instinct is that they are getting close to alienating the shipper audience. It's been three years adn still no ship chosen and no momentum with developing that ship. That's frustrating.

The shipper component, as you call it, is a fraction of the membership of GW (and you have no definitive data on how large a fraction) which is, in itself, a mere fraction of the overall viewership. I doubt that the ship issue is a major concern or interest of most viewers - we here on GW are heavily invested in this fandom and discuss and analyse things down to the molecular level but the majority of viewers don't. I think a lot of people probably do enjoy the UST aspect of the show- and that's why TPTB include it - and maybe favour one particular partnership.. but I suspect that the proportion of people who feel, as you seem to, that the show will fail unless your ship is confirmed and that there HAS to be confirmed relationship on the show, is less than you might think. And even if you could prove that shippers formed a majority of the viewership - TPTB want the show to appeal to everyone, not just those that like the idea of seeing overt romance in the show.



At this point in time, I've only been watching SGA b/c I love the 3 main actors (JF, TH, DH) and their interactions and the chemistry between John and Elizabeth. In terms of science-fiction action adventure, it's been iffy for me. I probably won't watch the Ark when it airs on SciFi b/c posters whose judgment I trust gave it low ratings and there's very little Elizabeth, my favorite character, in it.

On that note, I find it inexpressibly sad that you would chose whether or not to watch a show based on either other people's opinions of it or how much one character is in it. I guess that's the part of shipping etc that I really don't understand - that you could be so focused on one single, sole aspect of the show (one that was never meant to be at the forefront of the show) or one single character that you would choose not to watch it because that aspect or character is not prominent.

As an example, I love the recent series of Dr Who and a good proportion of the reason why I love it is David Tennant (I wasn't all that fussed by the Chris Eccleston eps). He's wonderful in it and he's cute and he absolutely brings the show to life for me. There was an episode in the last series where he was barely in it. Literally probably about 5 mins out of the entire episode. I still watched it. I still enjoyed it. I still like the show. It wasn't one of my favourite episodes but it was still good. I can't imagine choosing not to view that episode because he wasn't in it much.



I understand what you are conveying about there not being an official ship. And neither "kisses" can be construed as making its respective ship official, but if everything is supposed to be friendship, why do they have such scenes if not to goose the shippers. That's what I take issue with. Don't do this half-hearted, namby-pamby sort of ship b/c it eventually alienates the shipper audience. Shippers aren't stupid. We will just give up on the show.

Because those scenes can be interpreted either way, as friendly or shippy. They're not deliberately trying to goose you because they have no control over how you interpret that scene. If you choose to see it as shippy then that is your choice. Even if they intended the scenes you see as shippy to be UST then that is probably their only intention.. to add some UST to the show, not to tease shippers. TPTB are aware that people like UST.

I guess I just don't understand how something that began as enjoyment - an aspect/interpretation of the show you like and enjoy - turns into disappointment... I no longer enjoy the show because they won't confirm the interpretation that I like? :S

Alipeeps
January 12th, 2007, 10:34 AM
I totally agree. If TPTB really intend to do no ship at all, don't throw in those scenes with the main characters kissing each other while under the influence of whatever. Or while they are having dreams/hallucinating like they did a Sam/Jack kiss in SG-1. Or toss in AUs where Sam and Jack are married/engaged -- hm, I predict an AU down the line somewhere with Weir / Shep or Shep / Teyla married to each other! :D


Ah I get you on that point. I guess doing stuff like that (the AU / alien control kisses etc) is a bit clunky and would be likely to bug someone who wanted to see that ship confirmed - cos it's like giving it to them and then taking it away again.

The problem is is that that's the only way TPTB can give people a proper "shippy thrill" (as in, a moment that is obviously rather more than friendship) without having to deal with the repercussions and go down the confirmed relationship route.. which seems to be something they don't want to do.

I admit I do like the AU kiss-type moments as I can take or leave ship and can happily see and enjoy ship between any pairing if I'm in the mood so I can happily squee over an AU kiss and not be bothered that there is not follow up to it. I guess I like UST rather than specifically ship. But I can see how if you are emotionally invested in one particular ship, seeing stuff like than can be aggravating.

Thanks for pointing that out...

Pegasus_SGA
January 12th, 2007, 10:50 AM
My goodness it's all gone quiet in the Ark thread, lol. Did I scare everyone off with my long-winded post? :D Well here's my long winded post part II *g*


I barely had time to compute that Teyla was a goner before Sheppard jumps over the cliff too. :p Maybe Teyla should have been sucked into the thing in the beginning of the ep, and then the team would have to 'beat the clock' to get her out before the moon burned up. Then, when everything else fails, only then would Sheppard decide on the suicidal plan. I would have got that. ;)

Hehehe. I like that idea thought about writing fanfic? *g*


For me, so much of this episode just felt sloppy. Teyla losing her gun was one of the worst bits. Seriously, all those Teyla/Sheppard and Teyla/Ronon gym scenes have been to show that Earth modern weapons aren't always necessary in a fight, right? Or have they been there merely to egg on shippers and teenage boys? :S I'm not a shipper or a teenage boy, so I need a reason for these things. This was a perfect opportunity for Teyla to show her stuff, for her to show how her people would handle themselves without a gun. We've seen Teyla's moves. She's awesome! Even without her sticks she should have been able to take out Grandpa. ;)

I think if I remember someone else said it better than i'm going to, lol, but since i'm here... *g* Personally from watching her facial reactions, she seriously wasn't expecting it. Here was an elderly man, severely injured and wanting to save his people. She thought she'd reasoned with him earlier, by saying they would try, but I really don't think she expected him to take her side arm. And maybe she thought that her diplomacy skills would work as opposed to having an all out fight. She knew how ill she was and the likliehood was that, if she did take him on she would've killed him. Also, she is not Superman, with a firearm at that close range could she have avoided it? Besides she knew Sheppard and the rest of them were only outside, so there really was no need to take the risk. If she thought he was really serious about killing her (which she knew he wasn't) then maybe she would've gone for the weapon? *shrugs* If Teyla could deal with someone diplomatically as opposed to using her weapon she will, she'd rather use her brains and her diplomacy skills rather than fight. But she will if she has to.

I know I didn't do a very good job explaining myself. And to be perfectly honest I can't say with any certainty why it happened as it did other than my thoughts. Sorry


I agree 100%! You know what? I don't even like her character and I want her to have an episode! How messed up is that? :P Seriously, though, they can give Teyla all the heart-felt monologues they want, but she needs something to develop her, or else I simply won't care. :(

ROFL. But you're right on that, people will stop caring if she's not developed and poor Teyla will fade into the background...oh sorry she's there allready. So, what's past the background then.... No you're right, I was really pleased though that at least she had more than a few lines in this, and am waiting on a nice big ep for Teyla something that she's had little of this season.


Yes! While The Ark wins points for at least giving Teyla something to do, couldn't there have been some other way for her to accidently end up in the machine except for sloppily losing her gun? The woman can take out any guy in Atlantis and a fully armed Wraith any day of the week. Blah. On the other hand, I don't think this was meant to be a Teyla episode. Which leaves it pointless. It was no one's episode. If anybody shined, it was Rodney for his "we leave no one behind" line. That's it. Nothing was accomplished, no one grew, we learned nothing new. And I still didn't get my proper Teyla fix. *grumbles*

http://i134.photobucket.com/albums/q119/Scully_album/console-1.gif


Defending Teyla losing her gun:

Anyone can be caught off-guard. When we see her in the gym and in other fight scenes, she's looking at the people she's fighting as opponents/threats. Teyla was looking at Jamus as a fragile, injured old man, which is what allowed him to get so close to her gun in the first place. Yeah, it's a stupid move, but she knows that. I'm pretty sure there's a split-second after she realises he has her sidearm where she has this "dammit, I'm an idiot" look on her face. And after he has the gun? You don't mess with someone who has a firearm pointed at you at that range. Well, I mean you could, but it would be stupid. Guns are dangerous, guns at short range moreso, and guns held by desperate men at close range exponentially moreso. She has no way to know how itchy his trigger finger is, and I don't care how fast you are, you can't dodge bullets. Not at that range, anyway. Once Jamus had the gun, any move she made was practically guaranteed to leave her injured, if not killed, and the team riddling Jamus with holes once they got to him.

She could have made a move during one of the split seconds when he looked away, but when he was typing commands into the beaming device, he was too far away for a lunge that wouldn't practically assure her injury, and too close to duck out of the line of fire before making a move.

It didn't bother me so much, Teyla's being disarmed, because it was a reminder that no one's perfect; everyone makes dumb mistakes, even in their area of expertise.

See told you someone said it better than me *vbg* Great post :D That completely makes sense to me.


I get how it happened, but when I see it coming a mile away,

You know I never saw it coming, lol. I got that Jamus wasn't a happy camper, but did not see the whole thing coming at all.


I agree with Flowerbud that not following through with what was started was a great way to effectively piss off a good chunk of the fan base and was a plain, old bad way of handling things.

Agreed!


Overall, I thought the interaction of team with the two survivors were both quite sloppy. Granted, they went into the mission not expecting to encounter anyone else but to leave a clearly emotional distraught person all alone and then let your gurad down with that old guy who clearly also have some issues (which was clear even before he admitting that their civilization nuking their own people).

I can see your point, and agree that those that have lost someone can be irrational, it isn't always clear to family..let alone strangers how affected you are by it all. Ronon sensed it, because he knew what it was like to lose his family and to be near the person responsible for it. But they feared that whatsisface (sorry *shakes head*) would kill Jamus, not himself. Sometimes though people just want to be left alone to grieve, maybe they just wanted to give him a bit of space...well...he got a whole lota 'space' in the end... Sorry didn't mean to mock, gallows humour and all that.


Well, at least we now know that the gyms of Atlantis shall be forever safe from baddies! :p

ROFL


I think she is a little too black/white and naive at times. Maybe this was just an extension of that. I don't know.

I don't think she was naive, I just think that maybe she didn't want it all to end in bloodshed if she could help it.


The whole time I'm chanting, "Get your gun!". The guy was old, injured, and clearly distracted as he droned on and on. She apparently has those lightning fast reflexes as seen in Conversion. Use them. ;)

Yeah, but she's not Anni Oakley, lol. She is also a leader and I think she wanted to talk him down rather than shoot him down, lol.


Which does not entirely absolve TPTB of the responsiblity for not coming up with enough interesting things for Teyla to do. We've had two episodes this season where Teyla had substantial lines (Echoes and The Ark), and in both, all she did was, well, talk. When is the last time we've seen Teyla take on an opponent in hand-to-hand combat outside the gym? When is the last time we've seen the Athosians, for god's sake? *Do* something with her! ack!

I agree i'd like her to do more and say more. Hand to hand combat. Hmmm probably S2... I might be wrong though.


I And I hate it when scifi shows based in different galaxies paint all planets as having the same culture... Earth doesn't, we have vastly different races and cultures, what one race or culture finds funny others may not, what one person thinks is great music others don't.

Yes, but if all your civilisation is gone, what's left? Your history. Be that in the form of music, books, poetry *g*. It's our legacy, because if we're not here, at least we have left something behind to show our diversity. Nuff said, lol, cos otherwise i'll end up going OT. Trying to get back on topic... that was why Jamus wanted his people to survive, so that there would be a legacy as he'd already obliterated the diverse culture that they had.





Rodney seemed very distinctly un-Rodney, somehow, but the emotional reactions from Teyla and Rodney were fantastic. You have no idea how many times I played back the bit where the chunk of debris cracked the window, and Rodney panicked and frantically fumbled with his helmet. The expressions on his face while he surveyed the growing crack and the breathlessly terrified inflections in his voice were simply marvellous.



Hehehe, I loved the whole, 'i'm a dead man' *g*




The way Teyla was acting at the last scene while in the Infirmary seemed completely out-of-character to me.


How was she out of character? We've seen her laughing and joking with the team, maybe because she doesn't spend her time with her people that their traits are rubbing off on her, bit like losing your own accent if you've stayed in another place too long?





Now, onto Sheppard.


Well, not so much him, but his uniform.


Combats plus Atlantis equals BAD plus...BAD. Since when does Sheppard wear combats? And, for the love of God, what type are they? They're black. They're cut like the weird combats that the Twinkies get issued at Blackdown CSTC (bonus to you if you know what I'm talking about). They even have a button to keep the sleeves up at the very spot Sheppard's were so messily rolled up to.



And... they were HOT! Sorry had to be done, lol.

See trying to end on a positive note *g*

Trialia
January 12th, 2007, 10:54 AM
Some of us have weird sleep cycles, meh.

PG = Pegasus Galaxy, in that context.

Alipeeps
January 12th, 2007, 10:56 AM
When is the last time we've seen Teyla take on an opponent in hand-to-hand combat outside the gym? When is the last time we've seen the Athosians, for god's sake? *Do* something with her! ack!


I agree i'd like her to do more and say more. Hand to hand combat. Hmmm probably S2... I might be wrong though.


Off the top of my head - Progeny: when they took down Niam and guards in Sheppard's hallucinated escape. Sadly Teyla's part of the manouevre wasn't all that visible due to the camera angles but she totally threw Niam to the floor! :D

Pegasus_SGA
January 12th, 2007, 10:58 AM
Some of us have weird sleep cycles, meh.

PG = Pegasus Galaxy, in that context.
Thankyou :)

Pegasus_SGA
January 12th, 2007, 11:00 AM
Off the top of my head - Progeny: when they took down Niam and guards in Sheppard's hallucinated escape. Sadly Teyla's part of the manouevre wasn't all that visible due to the camera angles but she totally threw Niam to the floor! :D
Hehehe must go back and watch that :) Loved that ep, especially the http://i134.photobucket.com/albums/q119/Scully_album/poke.gif It was so Rodney, lol.

Night Spring
January 12th, 2007, 11:09 AM
Off the top of my head - Progeny: when they took down Niam and guards in Sheppard's hallucinated escape. Sadly Teyla's part of the manouevre wasn't all that visible due to the camera angles but she totally threw Niam to the floor! :D
She did? Why did they not show it more prominently, then? Ack! This is exactly the kind of things they should be doing to give more "boost" to this character.

Alipeeps
January 12th, 2007, 11:11 AM
She did? Why did they not show it more prominently, then? Ack! This is exactly the kind of things they should be doing to give more "boost" to this character.

I asked BamBam about it a while ago in his thread.. can't quite remember his response. I know he thought it was a cool move for Teyla and looked great etc but of course he's not in charge of editing. I think I asked him about it because I didn't even really notice she'd done it until about the second viewing, because of the way it was edited - you only kinda catch the tail end of the motion.

Flowerbud
January 12th, 2007, 11:55 AM
I know it's been mentioned before that TPTB originally intended to ship Sheppard and Teyla but I've never seen confirmation of that and, if it is the case, they have obviously changed their minds since. From the past 3 years it's pretty obvious to me that they are not intending to do a romantic relationship - and doing so in TV has a bad history of ruining the show. On shows where it does work, the characters are either already a couple before the show begins or their becoming a couple becomes part of the ongoing plot of the show.. Stargate in general is not known for long, on-going plots (unlike B5 for example) and we all know about the big re-set button.


So, if TPTB have no intention of ship, why do they put in the Shep-Teyla kiss and Shep-Elizabeth kiss and hug? Why do they use the J/E kiss in their promos? It sounds like you are implying the Stargate writers and producers are incompetent at writing a romantic relationship. In today's television, including shows in the sci-fi genre, they show developing romantic relationships.


I also never said TPTB are not aware of shippiness or not using it to their advantage. It is an accepted fact that UST makes for good television. Just about every show has it to some degree and TPTB are not stupid enough to ignore that. What I do disagree with is the idea that they are deliberately teasing and "jerking around" the shippers by refusing to confirm any one ship. I doubt they even think about shipping in that much detail. UST is good for the show and they are happy to include it but if you think there is some secret, cynical plot to aggravate shippers then I think you over-estimate the importance of shippers (not UST but specifically shippers - those who want and clamour for a specific relationship to be confirmed) in the show's viewership. I also never said that shipping wasn't popular - but that doesn't mean that TPTB are or should be trying to appeal solely to shippers.. they want as broad an audience as possible.

It's not an accepted fact that prolonged UST makes good television. In fact, it is just the opposite. Whether TPTB's intentions are deliberate or not (an issue I never mentioned), the end result is that shippers are unhappy that after 3 years a ship is dangled but not chosen. And that is the piece of information I am trying to communicate with you. I have said this in a previous post, but unless you have marketing focus group data, you have no way of knowing how large the shipper audience is. I am only telling you that looking at Gateworld numbers, shippers make up a large part of the fan base. Therefore, by making this large section of fans unhappy, the audience for SGA narrowed, not broadened.


Again, I have to point out that shippiness is very much a matter of interpretation - in your description above you make the hug sound like some Mills&Boon moment with surging violins and crashing waves... I didn't see that at all. I saw a very sweet, emotionally charged moment between two people who had grown close and had thought each other to be dead. I can see how it can be interpreted as shippy or as not and I'm fine with people taking it either way. But you still seem to feel TPTB have some secret agenda when it comes to shipping and that they are deliberately teasing you by including shippery moments - despite the fact that it is only in your perception that these moments are shippy. And when TPTB themselves state that it was not intended to be shippy, you choose to suspect or disregard that statement as it doesn't mesh nicely with your beliefs.

You have right to interpret that scene as you wish, but I feel you are being disingenous and condescending. I never said they had a secret agenda. In fact, it's perfectly clear to many viewers that they have an open agenda to use shippery moments to entice viewers who like ship and make up a large part of their audience. How do you know that TPTB never intended a scene to be shippy and are in fact, playing or teasing their fans? You chose to absolutely believe what TPTB publically state b/c it meshes nicely with your beliefs.


My analogy of my interest in whump was exactly what I intended it to be. Shipping is an area of interest in the show for some fans. Whump is another. On that basis, no one group of fans has any more right to expect their preferred area of interest to be given more precedence than another. I don't think you're having a tantrum, I just find it hard to understand why you would judge everything about the show through one narrow view and find the show overall lacking because it doesn't give you what YOU want in terms of that narrow viewpoint. It seems to me that your argument here is that eventually shippers will abandon the show if it doesn't provide them with confirmed ship - suggesting that ship is all you watch it for. I love whump and would admittedly be upset to never have any again but I would still watch the show because I love the characters and the stories and all of it. My particular interests and preferences are just a part of that. As are yours. And I never suggested you have no right to express them. Where I do take issue is when people feel they have the right to demand that TPTB take note of their preferences and alter the show to suit them.


I have a right to view the show through my critical lens, just as much as you have to yours. I get the sense that you don't like my opinions and can't let go of the fact that I have a different opinion of the show. If a show doesn't satisfy, I will stop watching it. It's as simple as that. I love sci-fi shows, but at this point in time, SGA could be a lot better and the only thing keeping me watching is the chemistry between JF and TH. I have never demanded that TPTB take note of my preferences and alter the show to suit them. I thought I was just posting on a message board with other fans of SGA.


The shipper component, as you call it, is a fraction of the membership of GW (and you have no definitive data on how large a fraction) which is, in itself, a mere fraction of the overall viewership. I doubt that the ship issue is a major concern or interest of most viewers - we here on GW are heavily invested in this fandom and discuss and analyse things down to the molecular level but the majority of viewers don't. I think a lot of people probably do enjoy the UST aspect of the show- and that's why TPTB include it - and maybe favour one particular partnership.. but I suspect that the proportion of people who feel, as you seem to, that the show will fail unless your ship is confirmed and that there HAS to be confirmed relationship on the show, is less than you might think. And even if you could prove that shippers formed a majority of the viewership - TPTB want the show to appeal to everyone, not just those that like the idea of seeing overt romance in the show.

Again, neither of us has access to marketing studies other than Gateworld data. See my previous paragraph.


On that note, I find it inexpressibly sad that you would chose whether or not to watch a show based on either other people's opinions of it or how much one character is in it. I guess that's the part of shipping etc that I really don't understand - that you could be so focused on one single, sole aspect of the show (one that was never meant to be at the forefront of the show) or one single character that you would choose not to watch it because that aspect or character is not prominent.

As an example, I love the recent series of Dr Who and a good proportion of the reason why I love it is David Tennant (I wasn't all that fussed by the Chris Eccleston eps). He's wonderful in it and he's cute and he absolutely brings the show to life for me. There was an episode in the last series where he was barely in it. Literally probably about 5 mins out of the entire episode. I still watched it. I still enjoyed it. I still like the show. It wasn't one of my favourite episodes but it was still good. I can't imagine choosing not to view that episode because he wasn't in it much.

I appreciate your concern, but in the wider world, there are a lot of people like me with limited time who have to pick and chose. So, if a show isn't cutting it for me, I won't waste my time on it. SGA has been suffering overall for awhile and as I have stated previously, it's only the chemistry between JF and TH that keeps me watching. I sincerely hope, that SGA returns to the quality it had in Season 1 and its ratings can recover.

the old briar pipe
January 12th, 2007, 12:27 PM
In one sentence you praise Jason for making the most out of minimal lines, and then in the next you lament Rachel having mostly cliched lines.

I think we've had three years of seeing what Rachel can do with minimal / cliched lines, and unfortunately, the answer is "not enough."

Which does not entirely absolve TPTB of the responsiblity for not coming up with enough interesting things for Teyla to do. We've had two episodes this season where Teyla had substantial lines (Echoes and The Ark), and in both, all she did was, well, talk. When is the last time we've seen Teyla take on an opponent in hand-to-hand combat outside the gym? When is the last time we've seen the Athosians, for god's sake? *Do* something with her! ack!

Sorry for the delay in responding....

Eheheh. You're right. I was totally inconsistant. ;)

I guess what JM has going for Ronon is that he has few lines but lots of presence. I mean presence. So he gets to maintain an aura of mystery without disappearing from the screen. That's not an option for Teyla.

Also, Ronon's lines are spaced out pretty well. Teyla's are, sadly, often condensed into brief but fierce speeches with vast quantities of nothing in between. But leaving that aside....

Teyla can't be mysterious. We know too much about her. So the only real option is to bring back the Athosians or other aspects of her past. Things that mesh better with the RL's style, which is very graceful. Having her yell all the time doesn't really work for me.

Though The Ark at least had 'yelling' that made sense - only Teyla would be able to understand what Jamus did and why, so thoroughly and quickly that she can take up a new argument almost without missing a beat. I thought that part was very true to her. If we'd had at least one scene like that for every ep since Trinity, well... we wouldn't have this problem now.

WhiteRaven
January 12th, 2007, 12:47 PM
This is my first post here, so Hello all : ) I hope I don't break up the flow or anything. I just wanted to put in my 2cents and say that I enjoyed this episode. A different set in which I found myself intrigued with all the nooks and crannies was refreshing. Although it did feel a bit Battlestar-like with the cut off corners in everything.

And many Stargate episodes are fairly predictable (my fiance always knows the ending before the halfway point) if you let yourself look for the ending. I don't, I like to see it fresh without guessing.

I also enjoyed the different camera angels and panning that the episode offered. This time it didn't feel like we were in Vancouver, again. We've experienced a effects drought in SG episodes, and that was really nice to see a bit of it.

What I didn't like, Sheppard's outfit.... and the dumb luck of getting to the surface with barely a scratch. Someone mentioned earlier, it would have been nice for McKay to have a half-way, small solution and Sheppard to do the other half.

And I like that SGA teases us with 'shipper' situations. Sometimes in SG1 it felt like too much. No, slow and easy is how these things should work. The ending moment was nice, but the action of Sheppard trying to save Teyla's life was almost enough to pass along the message that he cares.

All in all, I enjoyed it, for its different feel and atmosphere it pulled me into, for little character moments, its lack of campy humor (we've had too much lately), its emotional beats (gave me a small roller coaster ride) and for finally giving us an episode goes against the norm a bit.

But lose the: Sheppard's outfit, tone down Teyla's vest (covers her up too much), dumb luck and 'alien worlds' that not only speak english, but use the same terms and names for things. (Only change was that they called the stargate 'the portal', that was nice heehee)

And... I've written too much.... sorries, next time, it'll just be two sentences.

prion
January 12th, 2007, 12:52 PM
I don't have a quote but I'm pretty certain that a romance was planned between Sheppard and Teyla and promoted in the publicity for The Rising, the series opener. I remember reading a promotion article for SGA discussing the ship. The Sheyla fans may have that in their archives.

I understand what you are conveying about there not being an official ship. And neither "kisses" can be construed as making its respective ship official, but if everything is supposed to be friendship, why do they have such scenes if not to goose the shippers. .

They're not 'goosing the shippers' - they're 'enticing the audience.' Two different things. They want to tease the viewers to keep coming back. Theyr'e not doing it to cause part of a fan base grief. TV shows have been doing this since, they started making tv shows! ;)

prion
January 12th, 2007, 12:53 PM
[quote]Does everybody in the PG have intertial dampeners[/QUOTE

Sorry to be dense, but what's PG?




sorry, Pegasus galaxy....

Trialia
January 12th, 2007, 12:56 PM
They're not 'goosing the shippers' - they're 'enticing the audience.' Two different things. They want to tease the viewers to keep coming back. Theyr'e not doing it to cause part of a fan base grief. TV shows have been doing this since, they started making tv shows! ;)
That doesn't make it any less irritating though. :P

Alipeeps
January 12th, 2007, 12:58 PM
I'm not going to get into another long debate on this cos really we're getting quite off-topic for this thread now so I'll just sum up with a couple of quick points.


I have never demanded that TPTB take note of my preferences and alter the show to suit them. I thought I was just posting on a message board with other fans of SGA.

Perhaps this is where the misunderstanding lies then - because by posting on a message board with other fans of SGA and stating that TPTB are ruining the show/alienating the fanbase by teasing the shippers and that the show needs to make a decision and either confirm a ship or remove all UST, it does seem to me like you are demanding that TPTB make note of your preferences and alter the show accordingly. I am right in thinking that those are your preferences, aren't I? Preferably that they confirm the Sheppard/Weir ship?

If not then perhaps I am completely misunderstanding your point?



I appreciate your concern, but in the wider world, there are a lot of people like me with limited time who have to pick and chose. So, if a show isn't cutting it for me, I won't waste my time on it. SGA has been suffering overall for awhile and as I have stated previously, it's only the chemistry between JF and TH that keeps me watching. I sincerely hope, that SGA returns to the quality it had in Season 1 and its ratings can recover.

Well all I can say in response to that is that I think it's a shame that you're not enjoying the show. I personally have really enjoyed Season 3 and think it's been an excellent season and not suffering overall at all. I fully understand that different people like different things and the ep threads prove every week that people enjoy the show on different levels and there is never complete agreement on whether an episode was good or bad or whatever. The reason I struggle somewhat to understand your viewpoint is that, from what I've read of your posts on here, it seems that the main reason you are dissatisfied with the show is because TPTB won't make your preferred ship canon. Maybe that's a gross over-statement, or again I am misunderstanding your intention, in which case I apologise, but I myself can't envision basing my interest in a show on one single aspect of the show.

Maybe I'm just easily pleased but I love all the characters on the show (although I'm as willing to be constructively critical as the next gal and will freely admit some characters are under-used and/or developed etc) and I love the concept and the stories and the acting and I'm, I guess, lucky enough to be able to take each episode at face value and, whilst I have my definite favourites, find something to enjoy in each of them.

Alipeeps
January 12th, 2007, 01:03 PM
They're not 'goosing the shippers' - they're 'enticing the audience.' Two different things. They want to tease the viewers to keep coming back. Theyr'e not doing it to cause part of a fan base grief. TV shows have been doing this since, they started making tv shows! ;)

Thank you. You have expressed much more clearly than my rambling attempts precisely what I was trying to say. I doubt TPTB really understand the depth of feeling of those shippers who want a ship made canon and I doubt they are deliberately trying to aggravate those fans - as far as they are concerned, they are using hints of UST to interest viewers in the show.

It's a well-used practice in TV and I think the more in-depth shipper aspects of fandom (in almost any fandom I have looked there is some kind of opposing ship preferences or even "shipper war", to a greater or lesser degree) pass the majority of TV viewers by.

astronomicalchick
January 12th, 2007, 01:51 PM
I'm not going to get into another long debate on this cos really we're getting quite off-topic for this thread now so I'll just sum up with a couple of quick points.



Perhaps this is where the misunderstanding lies then - because by posting on a message board with other fans of SGA and stating that TPTB are ruining the show/alienating the fanbase by teasing the shippers and that the show needs to make a decision and either confirm a ship or remove all UST, it does seem to me like you are demanding that TPTB make note of your preferences and alter the show accordingly. I am right in thinking that those are your preferences, aren't I? Preferably that they confirm the Sheppard/Weir ship?

If not then perhaps I am completely misunderstanding your point?



Well all I can say in response to that is that I think it's a shame that you're not enjoying the show. I personally have really enjoyed Season 3 and think it's been an excellent season and not suffering overall at all. I fully understand that different people like different things and the ep threads prove every week that people enjoy the show on different levels and there is never complete agreement on whether an episode was good or bad or whatever. The reason I struggle somewhat to understand your viewpoint is that, from what I've read of your posts on here, it seems that the main reason you are dissatisfied with the show is because TPTB won't make your preferred ship canon. Maybe that's a gross over-statement, or again I am misunderstanding your intention, in which case I apologise, but I myself can't envision basing my interest in a show on one single aspect of the show.

Maybe I'm just easily pleased but I love all the characters on the show (although I'm as willing to be constructively critical as the next gal and will freely admit some characters are under-used and/or developed etc) and I love the concept and the stories and the acting and I'm, I guess, lucky enough to be able to take each episode at face value and, whilst I have my definite favourites, find something to enjoy in each of them.

I think Flowerbud and anyone else on this thread is entitled to not like the show for any reason they wish. Maybe it's a particular ship, maybe it's not enough blood, maybe it's not enough puddle jumpers, or not enough Chuck, McKay, arran jumpers,pineapples, penguins...

LoveConquers
January 12th, 2007, 01:54 PM
Go and have a look at the SGA website. Check out Teyla's character bio. There's a concrete statement (or as concrete as you're going to get) that the Sheyla ship was planned from day one.

They haven't gone ahead with it for whatever reason. Instead they've chosen to play around with every pairing imaginable. And yes, that is frustrating. It's frustrating for a Shep/Weir person, for a Sheyla and for a McWeir. We've all seen hints of those ships, some read more into them than others, but the signs have been there for all of them.

What I don't understand is why it's seen as a noble thing to be a whumper, and something perverted to be a shipper. How does that work? We (whether Shep/Weir Shep/McKay Shep/Teyla Weir/McKay ... whatever) are demonised for bringing the show down by wanting ship, but it's okay to want to see your favourite character beaten to a pulp each week??

That's not a personal attack -- just me not understanding. Or perhaps me saying that we have just as much of an issue with whumping as the whumpers do with shipping. You just don't see us shouting about it all over GW.

I'll stand up for anyone's right to ship. On LJ, the majority of my friends are Shep/Weir people. However I have some Sheylas and McWeirs and a slasher. Our collective group doesn't always agree, we sometimes have quite active discussions, but bottom line we all respect each other's right to a different view.

I can understand that people see some shippers as confrontational and argumentative against those of a different shipping 'colour', for want of a better word. The only ones I've never seen involved in a disagreement with anyone else is the McWeirs. I'm not one of them, but I love those guys. I used to post regularly in there, and although they knew I wasn't one of them, they had no issue with me being there.

It's about allowing others to have a difference of opinion. Provided there's no actor bashing (eg, saying a character looks old is actor bashing to me. The Shep/Weir people will know who and what I'm talking about... everyone else, it doesn't really matter to) I don't see the problem. The world would be a very boring place if everyone had the same opinion.

The issue is not that someone states a different opinion or that someone classes themselves differently. That is of course the nature of a forum and the nature of fandom. The issue is when several opinions from one class are seemingly spammed into a thread that has no bearing with said thread topic, it looks suspicious and is frustrating to those that want to simply discuss the episode.

I am not accusing one side as it happens unfortunately all over the place, nor do I want to get involved in this particular one. I am simply trying to point out again that this is the Ark Episode Thread. If anyone wants to actually discuss the episode, please let me know.

Night Spring
January 12th, 2007, 01:56 PM
What I don't understand is why it's seen as a noble thing to be a whumper, and something perverted to be a shipper. How does that work? We (whether Shep/Weir Shep/McKay Shep/Teyla Weir/McKay ... whatever) are demonised for bringing the show down by wanting ship, but it's okay to want to see your favourite character beaten to a pulp each week??
While I don't view either whumping or shipping as a perversion, I think the problem with people being vocal about wanting to see their particular ship being "realized" in canon is that it's seen as stepping on the toes of people who favor other ships. Like if Shep/Weir becomes canon, then that would disappoint the Shep/Teyla, Weir/McKay, Shep/McKay, Weir/Teyla, and all other Shep/whatever and Weir/whatever shippers.

Character whumping, otoh, doesn't preclude other characters getting whumped. You like seeing Shep get whumped? Great! I love seeing McKay get whumped. Hey, maybe next time our two favorite characters can get whumped together! ;)

ETA: Started new thread. Let's take this discussion over there.
http://forum.gateworld.net/showthread.php?t=39402

Flowerbud
January 12th, 2007, 02:10 PM
Perhaps this is where the misunderstanding lies then - because by posting on a message board with other fans of SGA and stating that TPTB are ruining the show/alienating the fanbase by teasing the shippers and that the show needs to make a decision and either confirm a ship or remove all UST, it does seem to me like you are demanding that TPTB make note of your preferences and alter the show accordingly. I am right in thinking that those are your preferences, aren't I? Preferably that they confirm the Sheppard/Weir ship?

If not then perhaps I am completely misunderstanding your point?

I think you are missing my point. I want to express my opinions on a Stargate message board which I have the right to do and have done so. But, I don't know where you got that I'm demanding that TPTB alter the show for my preferences. This is just a message board, not a direct link with the writers and producers. I'm confused as to why you have an issue with me posting my opinions.




Well all I can say in response to that is that I think it's a shame that you're not enjoying the show. I personally have really enjoyed Season 3 and think it's been an excellent season and not suffering overall at all. I fully understand that different people like different things and the ep threads prove every week that people enjoy the show on different levels and there is never complete agreement on whether an episode was good or bad or whatever. The reason I struggle somewhat to understand your viewpoint is that, from what I've read of your posts on here, it seems that the main reason you are dissatisfied with the show is because TPTB won't make your preferred ship canon. Maybe that's a gross over-statement, or again I am misunderstanding your intention, in which case I apologise, but I myself can't envision basing my interest in a show on one single aspect of the show.

You are misunderstanding. As I've written before in previous posts, in my opinion, SGA, on its own terms as a science-fiction action adventure show, has suffered a decline in quality since the second half of Season 2. The show is too plot-driven with weak characterizations. The only thing keeping me watching the show is the chemistry between JF and TH. I believe this decline in quality is reflected in the declining ratings since the second half of season 2. Whether you like it or not, SGA has lost a good chunk of its audience already.

Alipeeps
January 12th, 2007, 02:13 PM
What I don't understand is why it's seen as a noble thing to be a whumper, and something perverted to be a shipper. How does that work? We (whether Shep/Weir Shep/McKay Shep/Teyla Weir/McKay ... whatever) are demonised for bringing the show down by wanting ship, but it's okay to want to see your favourite character beaten to a pulp each week??

That's not a personal attack -- just me not understanding. Or perhaps me saying that we have just as much of an issue with whumping as the whumpers do with shipping. You just don't see us shouting about it all over GW.

Please show me a post where anyone suggested it is in any way noble or perverted to be either a whumper or a shipper. No-one is demonising anyone for wanting ship - as I should not be demonised or have aspersions cast upon me for enjoying whump - the point I had tried to make is that what I have an issue with is people seeking to push their preference to TPTB and suggesting the show needs to be changed to suit their preference - whether that preference be shipping, whumping, whatever. It is one thing to state your opinion that you like a certain aspect of the show - it is another to suggest that TPTB should acknowledge and respond to your particular preferences.

Perhaps the reason you don't see people shouting all over GW about whumpers is because we don't generally make demands or complain about the lack of whump. Well, sure, we do in a tongue-in-cheek manner in the whump threads but we don't post in the episode thread to say that the show needs more whump if it is to avoid being cancelled. ;)



I'll stand up for anyone's right to ship. On LJ, the majority of my friends are Shep/Weir people. However I have some Sheylas and McWeirs and a slasher. Our collective group doesn't always agree, we sometimes have quite active discussions, but bottom line we all respect each other's right to a different view.

It's about allowing others to have a difference of opinion. Provided there's no actor bashing (eg, saying a character looks old is actor bashing to me. The Shep/Weir people will know who and what I'm talking about... everyone else, it doesn't really matter to) I don't see the problem. The world would be a very boring place if everyone had the same opinion.

I totally get that and I have no problems with anyone shipping - as I've mentioned before, I enjoy a bit of UST myself and can happily enjoy hints of Shweir ship, Sheyla ship, you name it. I love that people have varied opinions on these things and I would never expect everyone to agree on an issue. I just feel there's a difference between enjoying something/stating a preference for something and suggesting that that preference should be made canon. If anything, I find that idea is somewhat disrespectful of other views/preferences.


I think Flowerbud and anyone else on this thread is entitled to not like the show for any reason they wish. Maybe it's a particular ship, maybe it's not enough blood, maybe it's not enough puddle jumpers, or not enough Chuck, McKay, arran jumpers,pineapples, penguins...

Agreed. Never suggested otherwise. I just think it's a shame to be put off the show because of one sole aspect of it. As I said, I think I'm lucky in that I can find something to enjoy in every ep. :)


While I don't view either whumping or shipping as a perversion, I think the problem with people being vocal about wanting to see their particular ship being "realized" in canon is that it's seen as stepping on the toes of people who favor other ships. Like if Shep/Weir becomes canon, then that would disappoint the Shep/Teyla, Weir/McKay, Shep/McKay, Weir/Teyla, and all other Shep/whatever and Weir/whatever shippers.

Character whumping, otoh, doesn't preclude other characters getting whumped. You like seeing Shep get whumped? Great! I love seeing McKay get whumped. Hey, maybe next time our two favorite characters can get whumped together! ;)

Ah. Thank you once again for expressing what I was trying to say much mroe concisely than I could! :D

Going back to The Ark - what that? Topic, you say? :lol: - one of the things I really loved about this ep - and about Echoes and Tao in a similar way - was the feeling of team friendship. I thought the plot device of having the team separated whilst in danger was interesting and added to the tension. There really was some lovely interaction in this ep, between all of Sheppard's team, and that's a large part of why I enjoyed it so much.

Flowerbud
January 12th, 2007, 02:13 PM
They're not 'goosing the shippers' - they're 'enticing the audience.' Two different things. They want to tease the viewers to keep coming back. Theyr'e not doing it to cause part of a fan base grief. TV shows have been doing this since, they started making tv shows! ;)

Yeah, but it's still annoying as heck. ;)

LoveConquers
January 12th, 2007, 02:17 PM
How was she out of character? We've seen her laughing and joking with the team, maybe because she doesn't spend her time with her people that their traits are rubbing off on her, bit like losing your own accent if you've stayed in another place too long?



I'd be interested to hear more on this one too from the OP as to what particularily felt out of character for Teyla in the infirmary scene. In season one, it would have felt out of character to me, but I thought it well fitting in season three since, as Pegasus said, we've seen a lot of bonding with the team, Teyla included.

And for someone who commented that it would be like Teyla using contractions, she actually has three times now in season three. I took that to be one more example of her opening up and becoming more a part of the team. Just as we're seeing Teyla become more familiar with Earth customs and mannerisms, so we're seeing them become more accustomed to hers, ie for example, Rodney bringing her the ceremonial tea in honor of her father's death anniversary in ToR. Because of moments like this, I felt like the infirmary scene was very much in character for them all.

LoveConquers
January 12th, 2007, 02:32 PM
Going back to The Ark - what that? Topic, you say? :lol: - one of the things I really loved about this ep - and about Echoes and Tao in a similar way - was the feeling of team friendship. I thought the plot device of having the team separated whilst in danger was interesting and added to the tension. There really was some lovely interaction in this ep, between all of Sheppard's team, and that's a large part of why I enjoyed it so much.

I agree! While the plot may have been a bit predictable at times, what really made me like this episode so much was all the great character moments. I have loved the deliberate addition of team bonding/character moments we have seen in S3, and this ep is a prime example. There were so many moments!

*John/Ronon pairing off--LOVE that!--and their whole understanding of each other...a result of continual buildup in season three.

*Rodney and his refusal to leave the rest of the team behind. Can that man show any more layers?!

*Teyla's empathy to another man whose life had been destroyed by the wraith and her emotional involvment to him after so short a time. I believe this is what kept her from reaching for that gun. She truly did understand and wanted him to understand as well. Not to mention the practical purposes of grabbing a gun in that vicinity and in that environment.

*Elizabeth sitting on the edge of Teyla's bedside. Another small glimpse of their growing friendship as well. We haven't had this much at all, only a few tiny glimpses, like in Progeny.

*Carson calling Teyla "love."

*John once again cracking a joke to avoid having to admit emotion aloud.

This team has been through so much together already in only a few short years. Their interactions and growing understanding and frustrations with each other is a huge part of that. So I love seeing that developed as it was done in this ep!

expendable_crewman
January 12th, 2007, 02:38 PM
Atlantis appears to have a very flexible framework with regard to its chain of command.

Before I start thinking about who Teyla can / cannot date, I look at the way she and other team members interact on the base and in the field.

From this season:

If there was a military hierarchy worth getting edgy about, in Irresponsible Teyla would not have been able to put herself in Sheppard's path.

Before we start discussing on the poor, lost Ark thread if Teyla should have, should not have done this, please understand that I am using this scene as an example of what the writers ARE giving the audience, not to point out what they SHOULD be giving the audience.

RL, we couldn't date outside our paygrade. I never called my senior leaders by the first name. There's a career-limiting move if I ever I saw one. I'd never have a beer (or eat popcorn) with a senior leader. Off duty, in civies, just the two of us? Didn't happen.

On the other hand, if I wanted to I could date the civilian contractors. A civilian contractor was a non-military employee, usually DOD, hired because (in our case) the civilians didn't transfer in and out all the time. They were there for continuity. They did what we did.

We called them by their first names on and off duty. We could go out and have a beer. We went to their homes for parties. Our civilians went toe-to-toe with crew chiefs and flight officers without repercussions. They were not in our chain of command.

And here I am now, a civilian who is a boss, and I cannot date other civilians I work with, namely my employees. The definition of an employee is someone whose job I evaluate.

I can date someone in another department but my employees are off limits. That's not true everywhere, but, um, due to some dependency issues with adrenaline I still work in a field where my staff wear uniforms.

Okay but hey at the end of the day Atlantis is a TV show that takes place in another galaxy.

Rules? What rules?

Preferences aside ... I will be fine as long as the writers write consistently and write well.

On topic: I could see easily how Jamus got Teyla's weapon. ... A perfect example of why you don't carry sidearms on psych wards ... I'm sorry ... Another topic.

Anyway, IMO, she had a chance early in the confrontation to get it back. Once Jamus backed up, the best chance for a solution (without injury) was to let the team come in and intimidate Jamus into surrendering.

My .02.

Linzi
January 12th, 2007, 02:54 PM
I'd be interested to hear more on this one too from the OP as to what particularily felt out of character for Teyla in the infirmary scene. In season one, it would have felt out of character to me, but I thought it well fitting in season three since, as Pegasus said, we've seen a lot of bonding with the team, Teyla included.

And for someone who commented that it would be like Teyla using contractions, she actually has three times now in season three. I took that to be one more example of her opening up and becoming more a part of the team. Just as we're seeing Teyla become more familiar with Earth customs and mannerisms, so we're seeing them become more accustomed to hers, ie for example, Rodney bringing her the ceremonial tea in honor of her father's death anniversary in ToR. Because of moments like this, I felt like the infirmary scene was very much in character for them all.
Agreed. Great post. Incidentally, Teyla using contractions has been a nightmare for me. I'd just learned to write for her not using them, and then PTB have her using them occasionally! I get confuzzled now!!!
ITA with the posters who posted about whump and ship, pointing out that nobody has demonised either. Nobody has said either are perverted!!!
Ali is right though. Whumpers never demand any whump on episode threads. We don't try and convince TPTB to give us more anywhere but on our own thread, and that's joking. As if TPTB listen to us!. I enjoy lots of other aspects of the show. Anything I've silently asked for that I get is a bonus...*cough Common Ground cough!!! *
I really loved the Ark though. Truly did. Great scifi action. You can't beat that in my eyes.
Oh yes, as a musician, I muchly appreciated Joel Goldsmith's inspiring and fantastic score in The Ark. Wonderful. The man's a genius.

Chailyn
January 12th, 2007, 03:00 PM
Hehehe. I like that idea thought about writing fanfic? *g*

Ahh...I think I'll leave this little gem with the professionals. :p



This team has been through so much together already in only a few short years. Their interactions and growing understanding and frustrations with each other is a huge part of that. So I love seeing that developed as it was done in this ep!

I can agree with that. Even though I didn't love this episode, I did like some things. Ronon and Shep were good together. I hope to see that combo again and maybe more McKay/Teyla too. And Lorne. Much more Lorne. To be honest, I can usually overlook plot issues as long as the characters seem in character to me. Let's hope the rest of season three and season four continues to develop our team so that no one gets lost in the background. :)

LoveConquers
January 12th, 2007, 03:30 PM
I can agree with that. Even though I didn't love this episode, I did like some things. Ronon and Shep were good together. I hope to see that combo again and maybe more McKay/Teyla too. And Lorne. Much more Lorne. To be honest, I can usually overlook plot issues as long as the characters seem in character to me. Let's hope the rest of season three and season four continues to develop our team so that no one gets lost in the background. :)

I hope to see more Ronon/Shep again too! And I would love to also see more McKay/Teyla! Also no arguments on more Lorne either. :)

Just wanted to say, I totally agree with you on the character thing. For me at least, that is the most important thing that I look for in any show. Plot is also a huge part of course, but I can overlook a lot if I believe the characters.

And in Ark, I did. :)

Pegasus_SGA
January 12th, 2007, 03:40 PM
I'd be interested to hear more on this one too from the OP as to what particularily felt out of character for Teyla in the infirmary scene. In season one, it would have felt out of character to me, but I thought it well fitting in season three since, as Pegasus said, we've seen a lot of bonding with the team, Teyla included.

And for someone who commented that it would be like Teyla using contractions, she actually has three times now in season three. I took that to be one more example of her opening up and becoming more a part of the team. Just as we're seeing Teyla become more familiar with Earth customs and mannerisms, so we're seeing them become more accustomed to hers, ie for example, Rodney bringing her the ceremonial tea in honor of her father's death anniversary in ToR. Because of moments like this, I felt like the infirmary scene was very much in character for them all.

I've watched it again to try and find out why it was OOC, and I can't see it. Is it maybe because she patted Sheppard? Or.... no, lol, for once I don't know have the answers of why Teyla seemed OOC...:eek:


I agree! While the plot may have been a bit predictable at times, what really made me like this episode so much was all the great character moments. I have loved the deliberate addition of team bonding/character moments we have seen in S3, and this ep is a prime example. There were so many moments!

*John/Ronon pairing off--LOVE that!--and their whole understanding of each other...a result of continual buildup in season three.

*Rodney and his refusal to leave the rest of the team behind. Can that man show any more layers?!

*Teyla's empathy to another man whose life had been destroyed by the wraith and her emotional involvment to him after so short a time. I believe this is what kept her from reaching for that gun. She truly did understand and wanted him to understand as well. Not to mention the practical purposes of grabbing a gun in that vicinity and in that environment.

*Elizabeth sitting on the edge of Teyla's bedside. Another small glimpse of their growing friendship as well. We haven't had this much at all, only a few tiny glimpses, like in Progeny.

*Carson calling Teyla "love."

*John once again cracking a joke to avoid having to admit emotion aloud.

This team has been through so much together already in only a few short years. Their interactions and growing understanding and frustrations with each other is a huge part of that. So I love seeing that developed as it was done in this ep!

I didn't want to cut any of your post because I agreed with everything you've said, and totally loved the tea ceremony *sniff* I completely agree with you on the Jamus issue, I think that's the reason she didn't kick his ass. She is very empathic when it comes to reading people's emotions even when they don't say it out loud. And she reads Sheppard very well. And there are lots of little things the team picked up in this ep without having to say very much and it shows how they've grown as a team and it's lovely to watch.

It was a nice change to see the pairings swapped over to. :) Don't take this the wrong way anyone, because I love the McKay Shep togetherness, but I know some people love to have Sheppard and McKay always paired together. Personnally, I think this ep showed that they don't necessarily need to be joined at the hip to have that great banter. And because of that it allows the different characters to interact with each other.


Atlantis appears to have a very flexible framework with regard to its chain of command. Anyway, IMO, she had a chance early in the confrontation to get it back. Once Jamus backed up, the best chance for a solution (without injury) was to let the team come in and intimidate Jamus into surrendering.

My .02.

Couldn't agree more. Very well said.


Agreed. Great post. Incidentally, Teyla using contractions has been a nightmare for me. I enjoy lots of other aspects of the show. Anything I've silently asked for that I get is a bonus...*cough Common Ground cough!!! *

hehehe, poor Linzi. I agree with you completely about CG to *vbg* We wants lots more like that.


Ahh...I think I'll leave this little gem with the professionals. :p
I can agree with that. Even though I didn't love this episode, I did like some things. Ronon and Shep were good together. I hope to see that combo again and maybe more McKay/Teyla too. And Lorne. Much more Lorne. To be honest, I can usually overlook plot issues as long as the characters seem in character to me. Let's hope the rest of season three and season four continues to develop our team so that no one gets lost in the background. :)

I agree with everything you said :)

Well at this rate there'll be nobody to debate with lol...

Erised
January 12th, 2007, 03:55 PM
What's with all the fighting? I think this show should either focus on a pairing or not have a pairing at all. All the characters are professional on the show, and should either prevent certain kinds of feelings from showing up, or have those feelings for one person only... aka Sheppard and Teyla? Cool. Sheppard and Weir? Great. NOT BOTH! Ronon and Weir? Cool. Ronon and Teyla? Fantastic! NOT BOTH! Carson and Weir? Cute. McKay and Weir? Cool. NOT BOTH! I feel like I'm watching a kid show, "today I like this girl and next week I am going to like that girl, and overall, I'm gonna do all the hotties before I graduate." This show is insulting my intellegence. ;) Okay I said what I wanted. Now I'm going to go rewatch Heroes and Battlestar Galactica. Excuse me.

GateByte
January 12th, 2007, 04:44 PM
What's with all the fighting? I think this show should either focus on a pairing or not have a pairing at all. All the characters are professional on the show, and should either prevent certain kinds of feelings from showing up, or have those feelings for one person only... aka Sheppard and Teyla? Cool. Sheppard and Weir? Great. NOT BOTH! Ronon and Weir? Cool. Ronon and Teyla? Fantastic! NOT BOTH! Carson and Weir? Cute. McKay and Weir? Cool. NOT BOTH! I feel like I'm watching a kid show, "today I like this girl and next week I am going to like that girl, and overall, I'm gonna do all the hotties before I graduate." This show is insulting my intellegence. ;) Okay I said what I wanted. Now I'm going to go rewatch Heroes and Battlestar Galactica. Excuse me.

Hehe, yeah the flipping back and forth between ships is annoying, but some of the things that might be considered 'shippy' probably were never intended that way. In any case, they really should decide on one 'true' ship, or just give up on trying to please everyone -it'll never work. Although a lot of instance of 'ship' I would consider to be showing 'friendship'. You have to think for a moment that the characters have been through a lot with one another, and over 3 years have probably grown considerably close -at least closer than they probably would have if they were working on Earth with the ability to keep their work and personal lives separate. People can have many friends, and I have to disagree that "today I like this girl and next week I am going to like that girl, and overall, I'm gonna do all the hotties before I graduate." is the case at all (sorry if this isn't warranted, it's hard to tell when people are kidding around here). I think they're giving the viewers a chance to see all of the different friendships that have been formed, and exactly how much the characters mean to each other.

The fact that Sheppard wasn't willing to leave Teyla behind can be looked at in the way that, she is his friend and it'd matter to him if she died -which I'm sure no one could attest the fact that they would care if one of their friends died, or that if they had the chance to save them, they would. I find nothing 'shippy' about that one bit, or the fact that he came to visit her at the end. It's not a case of, 'I like her, no wait I like her', it's the fact that they are all friends and they do care about each other, to quote Sheppard "the way a friend feels about another friend". I haven't taken the time to read over this whole thread, so I'm not exactly sure where all the debating is coming from. For me "The Ark" had nothing I'd consider 'ship' in it, just the friendship aspect they seem to have been pushing this season. Which is perfectly fine by me, the characters need to grow and I'm liking that they're finally giving most of them some depth this season.

Back to the point of either pick a pairing or have no pairing at all, I think if all instances of 'ship' were removed, the show would probably get rather boring. Other shows do the same toying with regards to pairing, take BSG for example: Apollo/Starbuck, Starbuck/Anders, Apollo/Dee quadrangle they have going on ... and then there was the Billy/Dee, Dee/Apollo thing. Though, with BSG it's a little different with it's 'in-your-face' approach to ship.

Erised
January 12th, 2007, 04:55 PM
Well, I have no problem with Sheppard not wanting to leave Teyla behind.

As for BSG pairings, it just seemed to be handled better there than in Atlantis.

Alipeeps
January 12th, 2007, 05:01 PM
Well, I have no problem with Sheppard not wanting to leave Teyla behind.

As for BSG pairings, it just seemed to be handled better there than in Atlantis.

It's kinda the two polar opposites, isn't it? On Atlantis everybody is - supposedly - flirting with/fancying everyone else but there's no follow-though and on BSG everyone is happily sleeping with everyone else at the drop of a hat! :lol:

GateByte
January 12th, 2007, 05:03 PM
Well, I have no problem with Sheppard not wanting to leave Teyla behind.


Never said you did :). I just started typing and the post sort of took on a mind of it's own. Since this is an episode thread, I figured I should at least solidify my post by mentioning the episode ;)



As for BSG pairings, it just seemed to be handled better there than in Atlantis.

The pairings are definitely handled much better on BSG, even if the flip-flop is annoying at times. Tptb don't leave you wondering what on Earth they were going for. They give it to you straight up, so it's impossible to get confused.

Southern Red
January 12th, 2007, 06:01 PM
I think Flowerbud and anyone else on this thread is entitled to not like the show for any reason they wish. Maybe it's a particular ship, maybe it's not enough blood, maybe it's not enough puddle jumpers, or not enough Chuck, McKay, arran jumpers,pineapples, penguins...

Personally I think The Ark would have been much better with blue jello instead of that Snickers. ;) And who said they didn't like Shep's new outfit? Bite your tongue. What they needed was more light so we could see it better? And BTW, why is he the only one who gets new clothes? Does Ronon even have anything to change into, or does he get those pants by the case at the Gap?

Mitchell82
January 12th, 2007, 06:04 PM
Ok I keep seeing this and it's driving me nuts. How the hell is this similar to lifeboat? The only comparison is people in stasis. I thought this episode was completely fresh and excioting. I have no problem with Teyla loosing her sidearm as she was surprised and her reaction aftere words was by the book. I loved the team interaction and really feel teyla's performance was great, as was Rod's and Ronon's hell I think they all were spot on.

xfkirsten
January 12th, 2007, 06:42 PM
I think Flowerbud and anyone else on this thread is entitled to not like the show for any reason they wish. Maybe it's a particular ship, maybe it's not enough blood, maybe it's not enough puddle jumpers, or not enough Chuck, McKay, arran jumpers,pineapples, penguins...

By jove, you've got it! Atlantis needs more penguins. Everything's better with penguins. And the thought of John, fish in hand, chasing a runaway penguin down the halls of Atlantis (as it waddles away quickly, making its little "AAAUUUUNHHH!" sound) is the best EVER. :p
/offtopic

Ouroboros
January 12th, 2007, 07:06 PM
Honestly I think the biggest thing wrong with this episode was that it wasn't a two parter. There was a lot of material to cover here and I think that given the extra episode to spread it out over this could really have been something amazing. A huge step up from dull replicator rehashes and deus ex machina solutions for certain.

A few scenes that went back in time and showed this civilizations fall to the Wraith following their desperate nuclear war would have really made for some great drama. There wasn't enough time though so things ended up feeling a bit rushed at times and Sheppard deciding to risk his life for Teyla when he WOULDN'T for 1000 people and 200 children was the definate low point. That's hardly heroic behaviour, it's quite frankly disgusting, but then again I never could stand him anyway.

That being said though the vast, vast majority of this episode was very good. It's the definate front runner for this half season for me so far with Common Ground being the front runner for the first half.

The solution here didn't come as a result of McKay making up new words and underused characters like Teyla and Lourne were given something to do while the omnipresent McKay was thankfully put on the back-burner for an episode. Even more remarkably we didn't see a single square foot of "woods" or a single pine tree for the duration. That alone deserves note.

All in all a definate 8 out of 10 from me.

LoveConquers
January 12th, 2007, 07:35 PM
I've watched it again to try and find out why it was OOC, and I can't see it. Is it maybe because she patted Sheppard? Or.... no, lol, for once I don't know have the answers of why Teyla seemed OOC...:eek:



I didn't want to cut any of your post because I agreed with everything you've said, and totally loved the tea ceremony *sniff* I completely agree with you on the Jamus issue, I think that's the reason she didn't kick his ass. She is very empathic when it comes to reading people's emotions even when they don't say it out loud. And she reads Sheppard very well. And there are lots of little things the team picked up in this ep without having to say very much and it shows how they've grown as a team and it's lovely to watch.

It was a nice change to see the pairings swapped over to. :) Don't take this the wrong way anyone, because I love the McKay Shep togetherness, but I know some people love to have Sheppard and McKay always paired together. Personnally, I think this ep showed that they don't necessarily need to be joined at the hip to have that great banter. And because of that it allows the different characters to interact with each other.



LOL! Everything she did in that scene, she's done before, even the pat. :) (Game). So it all looks good to me! I love your description of Teyla here also. She is very good at reading emotions I think!

I totally agree with you on the pairings. Another one I would love to see more of is Ronon/McKay. They were hilarious in Allies and No Man's Land. And like you said, look how well it worked in the Ark to pair off Shep/Ronon and yet still maintain our beloved Shep/McKay banter over the radio. We got the best of both worlds with that one without it being stale or over-the-top! I really hope to see more of that.

Night Spring
January 12th, 2007, 07:44 PM
And like you said, look how well it worked in the Ark to pair off Shep/Ronon and yet still maintain our beloved Shep/McKay banter over the radio. We got the best of both worlds with that one without it being stale or over-the-top! I really hope to see more of that.
The Ronon/Shep exchange was just so cute! And the Shep/McKay over-the-radio banter was one of the highlights of this episode, a total stroke of genius -- separate but not! Together yet apart! /channeling Star Trek

I only wish they'd trapped Rodney and Teyla in the same compartment, that would have gotten us some new and interesting team interaction we've never seen before.

LoveConquers
January 12th, 2007, 07:53 PM
The Ronon/Shep exchange was just so cute! And the Shep/McKay over-the-radio banter was one of the highlights of this episode, a total stroke of genius -- separate but not! Together yet apart! /channeling Star Trek

I only wish they'd trapped Rodney and Teyla in the same compartment, that would have gotten us some new and interesting team interaction we've never seen before.

Exactly! The last time I can remember Rodney/Teyla being paired off was in Siege 3, so it's been a while! I adored that tea ceremony in Tao! I think that's the closest we've seen of them this year.

The radio banter was most definitely a highlight! :D

localfocus
January 12th, 2007, 08:12 PM
Rodney and Teyla desperately need more face to face time. And Weir and Teyla need it the most.

Night Spring
January 12th, 2007, 08:17 PM
Rodney and Teyla desperately need more face to face time. And Weir and Teyla need it the most.
Weir and Teyla did have some scenes together in Echoes.
Unfortunately, in my view, it didn't do much to develop either character. And frankly, I was much too busy squeeing over Rodney's pet whale to analyze why that was.

localfocus
January 12th, 2007, 08:25 PM
Weir and Teyla did have some scenes together in Echoes.
Unfortunately, in my view, it didn't do much to develop either character. And frankly, I was much too busy squeeing over Rodney's pet whale to analyze why that was.

Well, it wasn't a personal talk, and they didn't talk *to* each other, but to Heightmeyer. Course the ultimate test of a decent female characters are if two of them talk to each other about something personal that isn't about boys, family, beauty, clothes, or anything that revolves around boys or clichés. Like politics, or spirituality, leadership, music, learning, books, etc.

But that may be too much to ask.

Night Spring
January 12th, 2007, 08:42 PM
Well, it wasn't a personal talk, and they didn't talk *to* each other, but to Heightmeyer. Course the ultimate test of a decent female characters are if two of them talk to each other about something personal that isn't about boys, family, beauty, clothes, or anything that revolves around boys or clichés. Like politics, or spirituality, leadership, music, learning, books, etc.

But that may be too much to ask.
Why not boys, family, beauty? I suspect thinking that in order to learn more about the characters, we've got to get them talking about weighty topics like politics, spirituality, etc, is one of the things holding back the development of female characters on SGA. When did John or Rodney ever talk to each other about politics, leadership, or spirituality(!)? Well, there was that one time they got into a brief tiff over the death penalty in Condemned. But we do get lots of milage out of ribbing over each other's love life and what women they find hot. Oh, and their choice of aftershave and sunscreen fragrance! So yes, let's have Teyla and Elizabeth comparing Athosian and Earth cosmetics! :D

localfocus
January 12th, 2007, 10:10 PM
Well, not such weighty topics, silly is fine. :) It's what came off the top of my head. It's just the women get such little attention as is. It would be nice to see that they talked as women and not have the conversation revolve around men, or pleasing men. If they had more scenes, then talking boys would be cute, and normal, but that's not all women talk about. It would be nice to have a scene with no men at all present. In the flesh or as a topic of discussion. The audience won't die from too much estrogen.

Alipeeps
January 13th, 2007, 03:13 AM
Personally I think The Ark would have been much better with blue jello instead of that Snickers. ;) And who said they didn't like Shep's new outfit? Bite your tongue. What they needed was more light so we could see it better? And BTW, why is he the only one who gets new clothes? Does Ronon even have anything to change into, or does he get those pants by the case at the Gap?

Yes! The Shep!Outfits TM are sacrosanct and must not be denied! Let's have him in a new outfit every week! Suits me! Especially if it's black (dayum, he looks good in black! :D)

Ronon's a firm proponent of the deliberately casual, "not trying too hard" school of fashion thought. It ain't cool and macho to look like you're interested in clothes.. find what works and stick with it... :D And hey, it works! ;)


There wasn't enough time though so things ended up feeling a bit rushed at times and Sheppard deciding to risk his life for Teyla when he WOULDN'T for 1000 people and 200 children was the definate low point. That's hardly heroic behaviour, it's quite frankly disgusting, but then again I never could stand him anyway.


Sheppard's job description does not include the requirement to lay down his life for every person/society in danger that they stumble across. He wasn't even certain that his desperate attempt to save the storage device would work. The only reason he was willing to even take such a chance was for the slim hope of saving his friend - why should be be expected to throw his life away (as that was what the chances of success amounted to) in a probably doomed attempt to save these people?

Alipeeps
January 13th, 2007, 04:44 AM
Oh, and on Shep's shirt -- hmmm. Not a disaster, but I do think the black t-shirt suits him much better.

Well, obviously Teh Black T-Shirt of Yum rules supreme but... I'm okay with a little variety now and then.... :D :D

Elinor
January 13th, 2007, 05:02 AM
. Even more remarkably we didn't see a single square foot of "woods" or a single pine tree for the duration. That alone deserves note.


http://www.clicksmilies.com/s1106/lachen/laughing-smiley-014.gif

I thought it was great to have different sets to!!

:)

Southern Red
January 13th, 2007, 05:13 AM
Well, obviously Teh Black T-Shirt of Yum rules supreme but... I'm okay with a little variety now and then.... :D :D

So have we come up with a name for the new black buttoned with sleeves rolled up shirt of :D yet? Oh, and going OT again. *is sorry,but this is fun* The way he rolled up the sleeves is roughly regulation. I asked my hubby the former Marine, and at least for them there are detailed instructions on how far up the sleeves can be rolled, how wide the fold, etc. Someone was wondering about that somewhere earlier. So. I know JF does it in RL. I like to think he's channeling his inner Marine. ;) But that's just me.

Elinor
January 13th, 2007, 06:13 AM
So. I know JF does it in RL. I like to think he's channeling his inner Marine. ;) But that's just me.

LOL!


So have we come up with a name for the new black buttoned with sleeves rolled up shirt of :D yet?

How about The Bodacious Black Shirt of Rolled Up Sleevy Goodness!?! http://www.clicksmilies.com/s1106/lachen/laughing-smiley-001.gif

You know, the more I watch 'The Ark' the more I enjoy it. The writers have really done a great job on the friendships in the team this season.

:)

Linzi
January 13th, 2007, 06:21 AM
Can you imagine trying to say that after a couple of glasses of champers, Eli? I don't want to think what might come out of my mouth instead!!! ;) Totally agree on liking The Ark the more I watch it, and ITA on the friendship angel - angle even, :lol: too!

Alipeeps
January 13th, 2007, 06:36 AM
I like to think he's channeling his inner Marine. ;) But that's just me.

Channeling his inner marine. I love it! :D


How about The Bodacious Black Shirt of Rolled Up Sleevy Goodness!?! http://www.clicksmilies.com/s1106/lachen/laughing-smiley-001.gif

You know, the more I watch 'The Ark' the more I enjoy it. The writers have really done a great job on the friendships in the team this season.

:)

:lol:

I am definitely enjoying The Ark plenty and love rewatching it - the friendship moments between the team are just wonderful.

*bounces for joy that we have turned the ep thread fluffy and fun*

Ahhhh... the unifying power of the hawtness that is Sheppard.... :D

Ouroboros
January 13th, 2007, 06:52 AM
Sheppard's job description does not include the requirement to lay down his life for every person/society in danger that they stumble across. He wasn't even certain that his desperate attempt to save the storage device would work. The only reason he was willing to even take such a chance was for the slim hope of saving his friend - why should be be expected to throw his life away (as that was what the chances of success amounted to) in a probably doomed attempt to save these people?

Yeah so basically what you're saying is Teyla mattered to him more than the lives of 1000 people and 200 children because she was his little snuggle buddy pseudo girlfriend. That's what I was getting and when I was talking about selfishly guided morality.

Don't get me wrong, there's nothing I'd like better than to see what would develop out of Sheppard and others realizing that for him Teyla>1000 people including kids. You could even argue that that type of reaction is realistic and human and I'd like to see that played against the obvious logical fallacy of it, especially given the whole backdrop of the Wraith war and humanity's right not to be food. That's not what's going to happen though, this potentially character changing moment with long term far reaching effects is going to end up under the rug with all the rest of them come next episode.

"Oh 1000 innocents are going to die, who cares lets go, we can't come up with a plan, it's impossible" "Oh my little sort of girlfriend is going to die, we've got to do something guys, we've just got to, oh look here's that plan that was impossible to come up with 5 minutes ago!":rolleyes:

all we're going to be left with is the lingering stink that apparently it is Atlantis responsability to interject themselves into everyone elses business, risking life and limb, when it comes to killing people or looting technology but not when it comes to saving the lives of innocent children.

If they really wanted to pick up on that to make the show darker and actually examine how this type of behaviour is changing these people, that would be cool. I can already see the rug beckoning though so I think I'm just going to simply dislike this small part of the episode.

It was a good episode, it really was, that part just really made me wince.

localfocus
January 13th, 2007, 07:34 AM
Well, the t-shirt of hotness is already taken for McKay's grey t-shirt. Black shirt of yum, for Shep's black t. Wonder what names we could come up with for Ronon's shirts?

Alipeeps
January 13th, 2007, 07:54 AM
Yeah so basically what you're saying is Teyla mattered to him more than the lives of 1000 people and 200 children because she was his little snuggle buddy pseudo girlfriend. That's what I was getting and when I was talking about selfishly guided morality.

Nope. Not remotely. And for goodness sake, let's please keep the shipping issue out of this thread - we've just gotten back relatively on topic thanks..

What I was saying is that any attempt to save the people in the pod was 99% likely to kill Sheppard and not save the people in the pod anyway. It was a million to one chance that he or they would survive and not just burn up in the atmosphere along with the moon. Why on earth should you expect Sheppard to take those odds? To sacrifice his life for nothing?

Yes the only reason he did it was because of Teyla but the odds hadn't changed - he was still likely to die and still unlikely to save Teyla or the other people in the pod. But Sheppard, being who he is, could not bear to not try and spend his life wondering if maybe, just maybe, he could have saved her.

I would expect Sheppard to try his hardest to save 1,000 people if he could but I would not expect him to willingly give up and die on the slim off-chance of saving those people. I don't see how you can expect that of anyone.



Don't get me wrong, there's nothing I'd like better than to see what would develop out of Sheppard and others realizing that for him Teyla>1000 people including kids.

I think you're being disingenous to suggest that Teyla>1,000 people to Sheppard - that was never stated in the episode and I don't believe it was ever meant to suggest that. What the episode shows is that Sheppard is will to make the ultimate sacrifice, to lay down his life, for even the faintest hope of saving one of his friends.

prion
January 13th, 2007, 08:09 AM
By jove, you've got it! Atlantis needs more penguins. Everything's better with penguins. And the thought of John, fish in hand, chasing a runaway penguin down the halls of Atlantis (as it waddles away quickly, making its little "AAAUUUUNHHH!" sound) is the best EVER. :p
/offtopic

ARgh.........little dancing singing penguins going down the corridors? I don't think so..... ;) Plus hey, can you imagine Shep going "Think they're edible?" bwahahahaha!!!!!!!!!!!!

Night Spring
January 13th, 2007, 08:48 AM
Plus hey, can you imagine Shep going "Think they're edible?" bwahahahaha!!!!!!!!!!!!
BWAH!!! And Rodney running after him going, "NOOOOOO!!!!! You can't eat my penguins!"

Night Spring
January 13th, 2007, 09:06 AM
Yes the only reason he did it was because of Teyla but the odds hadn't changed - he was still likely to die and still unlikely to save Teyla or the other people in the pod. But Sheppard, being who he is, could not bear to not try and spend his life wondering if maybe, just maybe, he could have saved her.

I would expect Sheppard to try his hardest to save 1,000 people if he could but I would not expect him to willingly give up and die on the slim off-chance of saving those people. I don't see how you can expect that of anyone.
I do believe that this is what the writers were trying to convey. However, the end result is still a bit weird for me, because it suggests that Jamus was correct (I would never call his actions "right") in sucking Teyla into the storage device. And Teyla's words in her conversation with John in the infirmary suggests that she does not hold it against Jamus -- can even be interpreted that she thinks John would go to the same extent as Jamus in saving "his" people. And not only did John not deny that, but it also seemed to me that it would be okay with Teyla if John did. And that, I find very troubling, because it's not okay with me. In my view, "doing anything for my people" stops where it infringes on the rights of innocent bystanders, a line Jamus crossed when he took and held Teyla's life hostage to his people's.

I'm not saying that the main characters should never cross that line -- having morally ambiguous characters makes for great drama, after all. But if TPTB do make the characters cross that line, they (the writers) should do so with the full awareness that that's what they are making the characters do. And the way that issue got slipped into the tag scene makes me wonder if the writers are really aware they're flirting with that line.

Alipeeps
January 13th, 2007, 09:16 AM
I do believe that this is what the writers were trying to convey. However, the end result is still a bit weird for me, because it suggests that Jamus was correct (I would never call his actions "right") in sucking Teyla into the storage device. And Teyla's words in her conversation with John in the infirmary suggests that she does not hold it against Jamus -- can even be interpreted that she thinks John would go to the same extent as Jamus in saving "his" people. And not only did John not deny that, but it also seemed to me that it would be okay with Teyla if John did. And that, I find very troubling, because it's not okay with me. In my view, "doing anything for my people" stops where it infringes on the rights of innocent bystanders, a line Jamus crossed when he took and held Teyla's life hostage to his people's.

I'm not saying that the main characters should never cross that line -- having morally ambiguous characters makes for great drama, after all. But if TPTB do make the characters cross that line, they (the writers) should do so with the full awareness that that's what they are making the characters do. And the way that issue got slipped into the tag scene makes me wonder if the writers are really aware they're flirting with that line.

Good point there. I'm not sure that's what TPTb were suggesting - my read of that scene was that Teyla was being empathic, as she tends to be, and reminding Sheppard that, though he went about it the wrong way, Jamus was only trying to do what Sheppard was - save his people. But I can see how it could be interpreted as you said; I think in the attempt to have Teyla remain sympathetic to Jamus' difficult situation, it was not made clear that Jamus' actions were wrong and that the team/Sheppard would not have crossed that line themselves.

Pegasus_SGA
January 13th, 2007, 09:53 AM
Honestly I think the biggest thing wrong with this episode was that it wasn't a two parter.
A few scenes that went back in time and showed this civilizations fall to the Wraith following their desperate nuclear war would have really made for some great drama. There wasn't enough time though so things ended up feeling a bit rushed at times and Sheppard deciding to risk his life for Teyla when he WOULDN'T for 1000 people and 200 children was the definate low point. That's hardly heroic behaviour, it's quite frankly disgusting, but then again I never could stand him anyway.

I would have loved to see a two parter in SGA again...it's been a while, and they're exciting to watch. I agree it would have bee interesting to see the backdrop of this story and the desperation behind them leaving. I think the only low point for me in this ep was the whatsisface killing himself... I don't know why I just didn't feel anything from him, and so when he took his own life, I was like..meh! And really wasn't bothered, lol. I would have liked for him to have been a bit darker, or played it differently, but not sure what it was about him that I wasn't fussed on...maybe it was that we didn't get to know him? *shrugs* As for Sheppard leaving the pod people, why was that a low point for you? You said it wasn't heroic and that it was disgusting, but why? In his position how would you have handled things? Given the options available, and knowing that the only way to save the people was to fly a derelict ship, that was un-spaceworthy (is that even a word, lol)? Just curious is all...


LOL! Everything she did in that scene, she's done before, even the pat. :) (Game). So it all looks good to me! I love your description of Teyla here also. She is very good at reading emotions I think! I totally agree with you on the pairings. Another one I would love to see more of is Ronon/McKay. They were hilarious in Allies and No Man's Land. And like you said, look how well it worked in the Ark to pair off Shep/Ronon and yet still maintain our beloved Shep/McKay banter over the radio. We got the best of both worlds with that one without it being stale or over-the-top! I really hope to see more of that.

Absolutely, it all felt very natural to me, and the more I watch the Ark, the more I see how much the team have rubbed off on her. We don't get to see Ronon and McKay much, nor Teyla and Rodney which i'd like to see more aswell. I loved Siege and them working together and it would have been interesting if as someone said (sorry can't remember who said it) if the two were trapped together with Jamus, that would have been interesting...but then we wouldn't have got the whole 'we don't leave anyone behind' line, lol.


The Ronon/Shep exchange was just so cute! And the Shep/McKay over-the-radio banter was one of the highlights of this episode, a total stroke of genius -- separate but not! Together yet apart! /channeling Star Trek

I only wish they'd trapped Rodney and Teyla in the same compartment, that would have gotten us some new and interesting team interaction we've never seen before.

Hehehe, it was you. Very good point *g*. I agree with everything you said, love the Star Trek channeling http://i134.photobucket.com/albums/q119/Scully_album/icon_spock-ish.gif


Weir and Teyla did have some scenes together in Echoes.
Unfortunately, in my view, it didn't do much to develop either character. And frankly, I was much too busy squeeing over Rodney's pet whale to analyze why that was.

ROFL, glad I wasn't the only one *g*. I like that Weir was sitting on her bed it did feel like a lil girlie moment and it does show how close they've gotten, but its a shame we haven't seen how close they've got, like with the boys.


Personally I think The Ark would have been much better with blue jello instead of that Snickers. ;) And who said they didn't like Shep's new outfit? Bite your tongue. What they needed was more light so we could see it better? And BTW, why is he the only one who gets new clothes? Does Ronon even have anything to change into, or does he get those pants by the case at the Gap?

ROFL. The black is very sexy and the sleeves rolled up...http://i134.photobucket.com/albums/q119/Scully_album/Thud.gifI would like to see ronon in something different though, I agree it looks as if he's only got the one set of clothes.


So. I know JF does it in RL. I like to think he's channeling his inner Marine. ;) But that's just me.

ROFL


I am definitely enjoying The Ark plenty and love rewatching it - the friendship moments between the team are just wonderful.

*bounces for joy that we have turned the ep thread fluffy and fun*

Ahhhh... the unifying power of the hawtness that is Sheppard.... :D

Hehehe, you just know it's not going to last, lol. But I agree I definately saw another level in the team bonding in this ep and things can only get better.


what you're saying is Teyla mattered to him more than the lives of 1000 people and 200 children because she was his little snuggle buddy pseudo girlfriend. That's what I was getting and when I was talking about selfishly guided morality.

Don't hold back now Ouroboros tell us what you really think.;)



Don't get me wrong, there's nothing I'd like better than to see what would develop out of Sheppard and others realizing that for him Teyla>1000 people including kids. You could even argue that that type of reaction is realistic and human and I'd like to see that played against the obvious logical fallacy of it, especially given the whole backdrop of the Wraith war and humanity's right not to be food. That's not what's going to happen though, this potentially character changing moment with long term far reaching effects is going to end up under the rug with all the rest of them come next episode.


You're right it is human nature to think more about your family, than strangers and it takes a lot of courage to risk your life for just one person, let alone 1000. You kinda lost me after the kids bit...sorry. As I mentioned above, they had no way to save the pod people, Rodney told him that. The only way to do so was to hook the wraith device up to a clapt out space ship that was in no position to fly. Would you risk your life for those odds? The only reason he did it was because Teyla is family. I don't think that makes him any less of a person because he cared more about Teyla than the pod people, it makes him human.



"Oh 1000 innocents are going to die, who cares lets go, we can't come up with a plan, it's impossible" "Oh my little sort of girlfriend is going to die, we've got to do something guys, we've just got to, oh look here's that plan that was impossible to come up with 5 minutes ago!":rolleyes:


Is that really how you saw it? The moon's orbit was decaying, they were already on dodgy ground staying there, what other alternatives did they have when the only possibility left was for someone to fly the shuttle and then rematerialise the people IF they survived, which was as Rodney said virtually impossible.



all we're going to be left with is the lingering stink that apparently it is Atlantis responsability to interject themselves into everyone elses business, risking life and limb, when it comes to killing people or looting technology but not when it comes to saving the lives of innocent children.


When have they looted technology? Did the team not save the children on that other planet? What about the Athosion children? They have no obligation to help anyone at all. They choose to do it, because it's in their nature, but these weren't 'people' per se.. they were readouts on a computor screen whom they'd never met, never interacted and i'm sorry if you think i'm being harsh, but it's easier to save someone when you see the danger face to face...


It was a good episode, it really was, that part just really made me wince.

Ourboros, go to your happy place. Put on a smile,you'll feel better. Want to borrow mine? I've got a drawer full :D

Night Spring
January 13th, 2007, 09:59 AM
I think in the attempt to have Teyla remain sympathetic to Jamus' difficult situation, it was not made clear that Jamus' actions were wrong and that the team/Sheppard would not have crossed that line themselves.
Ah, yes, you're right. That must be what happened. And I do think it's very much in character for Teyla to remain sympathetic to Jamus. But at the same time, Teyla is also the one who said in Letters from Pegasus, "If this is to be our end, it is best we face it with both dignity and honor." And Jamus' actions were not honorable -- in fact, the entire decison to save a few and allow the rest to get nuked was without honor. And I wish the writers had found a way to show Teyla condemn the act, while still having sympathy for the man.

Hey, that's another reason it would have been more fun if Rodney had been trapped in the same compartment as Teyla and Jamus -- Jamus confesses that they nuked their own planet, Rodney, having no censor between his brain and mouth, blurts out, "You nuked your own people??? What the hell is that???" Teyla tries to be diplomatic, while her expression conveys she does agree with Rodney...

Pitry
January 13th, 2007, 10:34 AM
Well.
I liked this better upon second viewing, but IO still feel it was sotr of a "meh". And I can't understand why they seem to have regressed, both with The Ark and The Game, back to the season 2 pattern insteasd of contiuing the fantastic episode quality they've had so far.

First, I was really glad it didn't end up turning up as another "Lifeboat", it seemed like that at some point... a bad enough episode on its own, it doesn't need an Atlantis version!

And.. well! they gave Teyla something to do. Now, taht wasn't that hard, was it?... However Weir and Beckett still had nothign to do.
Sheppard. once again, is the hero saving the day in a copmlpetely insane plan, I could live without that part - the problem with the entire episode - there was nothing exciting about it! So you have the teaser that starts at the end of the episode - yet again, how many tiems have they done it already this year? - I mean, c'mon, the beginning teaser was enough as it was to be "exciting", I can live without the promise of action. And the risk factor was compeltely ridiocuklous. Had they lsot the Jumper or been cut off in vaccuum or were about to burn out in the atmosphere... but all three? That's when it's overdone. And therefore, addnig the "lost the control room" schtick at the middle was one thing to much, I truely did roll my eyes at that - don't get me wrong, watching Rodney gets hysterical is always fun and David Hewlett, brilliant actor as he is, always pulls it off best - but come on.
Speaking of Rodney - why did they feel the ned to regress him together with the episode? He's elarned so much this season - enough that it showed in the Game. Why throw him back into the old "Rodney square"?

Oh, and yeah, one more thing - I'm stil waiting to hear why a civilisation on a different galaxy feels like decorating/ writing on its shuttles using the Greek alphabet :)

Alipeeps
January 13th, 2007, 10:47 AM
So you have the teaser that starts at the end of the episode - yet again, how many tiems have they done it already this year?

Ummm, to the best of my knowledge, not at all? Not sure I am following you there... you're saying the technique of opening with a teaser that is the events of the end of the pepisode and then going back in time to tell the story? Sure, it's a classic story-telling device in TV shows but it's the first time they've used it in SGA this season.

Night Spring
January 13th, 2007, 10:58 AM
Ummm, to the best of my knowledge, not at all? Not sure I am following you there... you're saying the technique of opening with a teaser that is the events of the end of the pepisode and then going back in time to tell the story? Sure, it's a classic story-telling device in TV shows but it's the first time they've used it in SGA this season.
First time this season? How about have they ever used it at all? If they have, someone please remind me? Oh, wait, in Return Part 2 they did the "rewind" about 3/4 way through the episode. But not a start at the end then go "X Hours/Days Earlier"

Pegasus_SGA
January 13th, 2007, 11:17 AM
Well.
I liked this better upon second viewing, but IO still feel it was sotr of a "meh". And I can't understand why they seem to have regressed, both with The Ark and The Game, back to the season 2 pattern insteasd of contiuing the fantastic episode quality they've had so far.

What do you mean by they seem to have regressed. Acting? Writing? Character development? :confused:



First, I was really glad it didn't end up turning up as another "Lifeboat", it seemed like that at some point... a bad enough episode on its own, it doesn't need an Atlantis version!


I really wish I could understand why people keep comparing SGA to SG1? Lol about the lifeboat, I agree with you on that, but not that this was a bad episode.



And.. well! they gave Teyla something to do. Now, taht wasn't that hard, was it?... However Weir and Beckett still had nothign to do.
Sheppard. once again, is the hero saving the day in a copmlpetely insane plan, I could live without that part - the problem with the entire episode - there was nothing exciting about it! So you have the teaser that starts at the end of the episode - yet again, how many tiems have they done it already this year? - I mean, c'mon, the beginning teaser was enough as it was to be "exciting", I can live without the promise of action. And the risk factor was compeltely ridiocuklous. Had they lsot the Jumper or been cut off in vaccuum or were about to burn out in the atmosphere... but all three? That's when it's overdone. And therefore, addnig the "lost the control room" schtick at the middle was one thing to much, I truely did roll my eyes at that - don't get me wrong, watching Rodney gets hysterical is always fun and David Hewlett, brilliant actor as he is, always pulls it off best - but come on.


Teyla speaking in this ep, is a big plus considering how little she's had. Who would you have had to fly the shuttle out of there? would you have left Teyla in the pod thingy? And left the 1000 or so people to die? What would you ahve done differently when there were very few options? I agree with you about DH :D Why did you roll your eyes at that scene?




Speaking of Rodney - why did they feel the ned to regress him together with the episode? He's elarned so much this season - enough that it showed in the Game. Why throw him back into the old "Rodney square"?


I don't think he regressed at all, I think McKay has come a long way in S3, he was snarky when it counted (which I love) and the whole 'are you ready for the how screwed we are report' is who Rodney is, he goes all doom and gloom at the thought of dying a horrible death. And the fact that at the near end of the ep, he told Sheppard not to go and that it was an impossible task shows (imo) how far he's grown this season. If you think about it, would he have said that in S2 or in the beginning of S3, no he wouldn't. He's now starting to feel comfortable with his emotions because of his past experiences in M&MM, Echoes and ToR. If the writers have McKay as too OTT people moan, if the writers have him subtle, people moan...lets just face it, can the writers ever win with us? *shrugs*


Oh, and yeah, one more thing - I'm stil waiting to hear why a civilisation on a different galaxy feels like decorating/ writing on its shuttles using the Greek alphabet :)

Lol, I must've missed that bit, where was it? :)

Pitry
January 13th, 2007, 12:05 PM
What do you mean by they seem to have regressed. Acting? Writing? Character development? :confused:

Okay, maybe I should clarify a bit better.
The kind of stories they choose to tell.
Now that needs a hell lot more clarifying (but hey, beats reading some silly thnig for my automatic processes class tomorrow, so :)).
Season 1 had two differnet arcs. The first half of the season, they were establishing situations, themes, backgrounds. The second part of the show, they created an arc about the Wraith coming to destroy Atlantis. Comparing to season 1, season 2 sort of seemed to lack a direction. I know BW felt - as he said so - that season 1 was "too much The Wraith are coming!" and I suppose that's why they chose to do season 2 so fragmanted... but that wasn't its only problem.
The stories really had a feelign of "Wow, This Is a Cool Idea" thining behind them. Duet, Condemned, Aurora, Lost Boys/The Hive, The Tower, The Long Goodbye, Inferno... some of these episodes I actually liked... but they contributed nothign to the story (with the exception of Inferno, adn even that felt to me forced), I didn;t feel they contributed anythign to the characterisation, and the general feeling I had from them is of that kind ofs tories written by 10 year olds - you know "and then this happened and then that happened and then this happened". The kind fo stories that doesn't realise "and" can't be used as a connective of all sentences.
The Ark is a fine example "and then this happened and then that happened and then this happened" etc. You load more and more incidents into your story, you don't give your characters time to digest anythign before throwing yet another sthign at them - and at the end you come off with empty hands.
That been said, The Ark would have been a very good season 2, episode. But after The REal World, Phantoms, The Return, Common Ground, Tao of Rodney, Echoes... this feels like a step or two back, instead forward.
I don't expect all episodes to be perfect. Goodness knows the oen thing Stargate has never had si a steady quality on its episoses - they always ranged from beautiful to horrible, on the worst and best seasons. But I can be disappointed, acn't I? :)




I really wish I could understand why people keep comparing SGA to SG1? Lol about the lifeboat, I agree with you on that, but not that this was a bad episode.

I just really felt it's going to go the Lifeboat road at some point. As for comparing SG1 to SGa - I thik it's a reasonable comparisment. They're made by the same people, they're shot togetehr, and they more often than nopt refer to each other. Just in this week's SG1 episode (Quest part 2 spoilers) They referred to both the "50 last addresses" rule - shown first in Runner - and the "random attribution of mind powers whwen nearing ascension - referred to in Epiphany. Both facs never had any reference in SG1. When they're so closely knit, why not compare them? :)




Teyla speaking in this ep, is a big plus considering how little she's had.

Agreed. But speaking isn';t enough. Lines are;t important -character development is. Sorry for comparing SGA to SG1 again, but look at how they got Teal'c developed, despite of little lines. I'm still aiting for the big Teyla breakthrough.


Who would you have had to fly the shuttle out of there? would you have left Teyla in the pod thingy? And left the 1000 or so people to die? What would you ahve done differently when there were very few options?

That's the thing... obviously, in this situation, the onyl reasonable answer is Sheppard. I agree. I would have tried, I guess, not to create that situation in the first place. I would have rathered have a diferent solution. It's not that Sheppard is always the hero. It's that the writing - choise of story - makes it so that Sheppard has to be the hero.


I agree with you about DH :D Why did you roll your eyes at that scene?
One bit too much on the "risk" factor. To quote an SG1 character "only oyou've replaced jeopardy with certain death". They definitely got close this time round.





I don't think he regressed at all, I think McKay has come a long way in S3, he was snarky when it counted (which I love) and the whole 'are you ready for the how screwed we are report' is who Rodney is, he goes all doom and gloom at the thought of dying a horrible death. And the fact that at the near end of the ep, he told Sheppard not to go and that it was an impossible task shows (imo) how far he's grown this season. If you think about it, would he have said that in S2 or in the beginning of S3, no he wouldn't. He's now starting to feel comfortable with his emotions because of his past experiences in M&MM, Echoes and ToR. If the writers have McKay as too OTT people moan, if the writers have him subtle, people moan...lets just face it, can the writers ever win with us? *shrugs*

Okay, you misunderstood me. I love Rodney OTT, I love him snarky, I lvoe him moaning, I jsut lvoe Rodney :) (hell, he's the main reason I kept on watching season 2).
What I nmeant wasn't his snarkiness - no, that was a great bit and compeltely in place. It was his complete insensitivity towards erm, forgot their names. Both idiots from the planet. I think Rodney is past that. Yes, his social register is still about that of your common guinea pig and he still never knows what's the right thing to say and when to say it. But being that insenstivie, I think he would have learned to at least remain quiet by now.




Lol, I must've missed that bit, where was it? :)

The shuttle. Look at it closely - there are sigmas and xi's and I think deltas, too :)

Pitry
January 13th, 2007, 12:07 PM
Ummm, to the best of my knowledge, not at all? Not sure I am following you there... you're saying the technique of opening with a teaser that is the events of the end of the pepisode and then going back in time to tell the story? Sure, it's a classic story-telling device in TV shows but it's the first time they've used it in SGA this season.


First time this season? How about have they ever used it at all? If they have, someone please remind me? Oh, wait, in Return Part 2 they did the "rewind" about 3/4 way through the episode. But not a start at the end then go "X Hours/Days Earlier"

Actually I don't have a problem with the rewind, I thought it was lvoely done

Oh, I see where my mitake originates - you're right ALipeeps, sorry. they did t for SG1 - Memento Mori this year and Off the Grid last year.

I jsut see these two shows too much as one :)

shockwave
January 13th, 2007, 01:04 PM
ep was kinda boring. The second half of season 3 (not counting the return part 2) so far has been filled with clunkers. Strangely enough, Irresponsible was probably the least boring one.

in the first season we heard that the wraith attack all planets every two hundred years or so to prevent them from becoming to advances. In Condemned the planet was advanced only due to the dual the leader struck with the wraith. And now we have this advanced civilisation that was attacked a lot that was able to build this ark? :rolleyes:, it's like the long goodbye, another totally implausible non-sensical plot.

Kinda liked the twist that the guy was able to save his civilisation by keeping teyla hostage.

TJuk
January 13th, 2007, 02:14 PM
Not a bad episode, pretty good but I found it lackluster and occassionally boring. The pace was all off.

The weird thing is it got going in the last 10 minutes. First few minutes (minus the annoying flash forward then back) were great and exciting then the next 35 just kinda miandered to that point. I would have condenced everything up to Shep's finally solutions into the first 5 and spread out the stuggle to free Teyla and/or Shep & Ronon before going for the cool crash landing ending. Build up the sense of tension and desperation instead of going for Shep volunteering for yet ANOTHER suicide mission cop-out (someone give the man prozac he's seems like a man awfully determind to die... heroically like but die all the same). Would have been nice to see Shep and Ronon trapped while Lorne and Carson helped McKay until freeing Shep at the last possible moment to save the day...again. :::eyeroll:::

I can understand them not wanting to take the risk until Teyla's life was threatened (though yeah, that makes them look a little uncaring) but that short struggle to the eventually solution was far more interesting then all the stuff before and seemed incredibly rushed.

6/10 Fair, entertaining in places but generally unrememerable.

Ronnikins
January 13th, 2007, 04:12 PM
Finally watched it and it wasn't as bad as I was led to believe. Think "The Tower " and "Epiphany" still hold pride of place.

A lot have been analysed to death here already but these are my thoughts:

Highlights:

*Loved Teyla in this episode. It was good to see her get major screen time and we need more of it. I would really love to see her and Weir have a A-plot episode devoted to them saving the day and not have the "boys" rescuing them for a change.

*Rodney cracked me up here. The writers found the perfect balance for his character in terms of snarkiness, insensitivity but also his guarded caring for his team members. I just wanted to hug him and the look on his face when the glass was cracking up? Priceless! DH is a fantastic actor.

*I can't remember much about "Lifeboat" so this didn't feel stale to me. There are only a limited number of plots in story-telling and it just needs to be tweaked to fit in with the relevant show.

*On a shallower note - Shep in black. Rawrrr!!!!! Lorne's back! And with a new hairstyle. Double rawrrr!!!! Always good to see Beckett. *huggles*

*The mantra "We leave no-one behind" was repeated several times in this episode and Shep followed through with the action, here and in previous episodes. The infirmary scene was especially cute. I enjoy the way all four characters were so comfortable with each other. That scene reminds me of ToR where Teyla was holding Rodney's leg and Weir was holding his hand in the infirmary.
I won't bother going into any "ship" debate here except to say it's all in the eyes in the beholder most times and it's generally friendshippy. To each their own. Any talk should be done over at the general discussion thread.

Lowlights:

*The pacing was uneven. I actually got bored and started thinking about about other things near the beginning and middle. The pace picked up again towards the end.

*As much as I love Shep doing heroic stuff, and yes, I know he's the lead, it just seemed a bit too miraculous an ending. But this is SciFi, so anything is possible. That guy must have been a cat in a previous reincarnation. He's already used up quite a few of his nine lives and it's only Season 3!

*It may have been addressed before and I missed it but it irked me to see McKay, Beckett and Lorne wearing those unflattering soft white balaclava thingies under their space helmets but Shep didn't?!! Was Shep!hair really that precious to be covered up? Would the fangirls riot?

*I can understand why Weir doesn't have such a large part here but as pointed out by others, I really don't want her reduced to waving the team goodbye and then wait around angsting. Like Teyla, Weir is criminally underused and we have got two excellent actresses here waiting to extend their acting wings a bit more. Again, it could be the uneven pacing of this season where we had a bit more Weir than usual in the first half and thinking "Yay! TPTB are finally writing more for the female characters." and expecting it to continue in the back half. Was I that naive?

Overall, not a great episode but not bad either. It was just OK.

prion
January 13th, 2007, 04:24 PM
LOL!

How about The Bodacious Black Shirt of Rolled Up Sleevy Goodness!?! http://www.clicksmilies.com/s1106/lachen/laughing-smiley-001.gif

:)

Think this is the same shirt Mitchell's got, only his is dark blue - and I think Shep just rolled up his sleeves...or they're just a little longer.

http://sg-atlantis.emedian.net/sgs1008.html

First photo on page with Daniel and Mitchell.

Alipeeps
January 13th, 2007, 04:27 PM
*It may have been addressed before and I missed it but it irked me to see McKay, Beckett and Lorne wearing those unflattering soft white balaclava thingies under their space helmets but Shep didn't?!! Was Shep!hair really that precious to be covered up? Would the fangirls riot?


Ahhh but he was wearing it at the start! He only wasn't wearing it when suited up for his ride in the Suicide!Shuttle TM - presumably because they were in a hurry and there wasn't time to bother with such things (what the heck are they for anyway?!! :D). McKay was also wearing his at the beginning but not later on when he was trying to fix the door etc - again because he'd thrown the helmet on in a hurry.. no time to bother with balaclava's when the room's about to depressurise! :D

Night Spring
January 13th, 2007, 04:35 PM
Shep never wore that white head bonnet thingy.
http://pics.livejournal.com/nightspring/pic/0000b5dh

Rodney, however, had it on at the beginning of the epy, as in the picture above, but didn't put it back on later when he put on the helmet in a hurry after the glass broke.

Alipeeps
January 13th, 2007, 04:46 PM
Think this is the same shirt Mitchell's got, only his is dark blue - and I think Shep just rolled up his sleeves...or they're just a little longer.

http://sg-atlantis.emedian.net/sgs1008.html

First photo on page with Daniel and Mitchell.

Ack. The sleeves on that shirt Mitchell is wearing look horrible! Is it some kind of special military design where you push the sleeves up and it has that wide cuff to cover the rolled-up bit of the sleeve?

I guess maybe it just looks better in black? And not rolled up as far?

Ronnikins
January 13th, 2007, 04:49 PM
I just rewatched the first part again to make sure and nope, my eyes didn't deceive me (believe me, I always watch Shep very closely.:rolleyes: ) he wasn't wearing the thingy when he and Rodney were exploring. What is it anyway? :)

Re. the pics on New Atlantis. Have to agree Shep looks better but Cam wins hand down with that leather jacket and motorbike. Sorry...went OT.

Alipeeps
January 13th, 2007, 04:51 PM
Shep never wore that white head bonnet thingy.
http://pics.livejournal.com/nightspring/pic/0000b5dh

Rodney, however, had it on at the beginning of the epy, as in the picture above, but didn't put it back on later when he put on the helmet in a hurry after the glass broke.

I must be going loopy! I thought I remember Sheppard wearing it at the start? Hmm.. maybe I'm getting myself confused with Aurora... :lol:

Night Spring
January 13th, 2007, 05:07 PM
I must be going loopy! I thought I remember Sheppard wearing it at the start? Hmm.. maybe I'm getting myself confused with Aurora... :lol:
Aurora? Hmmm.... Yup, he's wearing it in Aurora, and geeez, does he look dorky! LOL!
http://pics.livejournal.com/nightspring/pic/0000dhdh

Alipeeps
January 13th, 2007, 05:17 PM
Aurora? Hmmm.... Yup, he's wearing it in Aurora, and geeez, does he look dorky! LOL!
http://pics.livejournal.com/nightspring/pic/0000dhdh

:lol: I defy anyone to wear one of those things and not look dorky! :D

Luckily, however, Sheppard's adorkableness TM is part of his charm.... :D :D

Night Spring
January 13th, 2007, 05:22 PM
:lol: I defy anyone to wear one of those things and not look dorky! :D
Actually, I thought Kavan almost pulled it off... Almost. :D

Chailyn
January 13th, 2007, 08:04 PM
Actually, I thought Kavan almost pulled it off... Almost. :D

And the key word is 'almost'. :p

Yeah, wow...that's bad. Did Teyla and Ronon wear them too? God, I'm trying to picture Ronon having to stuff his hair into one of those bonnets! Okay, bad image.

:lol:

Night Spring
January 13th, 2007, 08:57 PM
Did Teyla and Ronon wear them too? God, I'm trying to picture Ronon having to stuff his hair into one of those bonnets!
Not in The Ark, but in Aurora, all four team members were in spacesuits. And yes, they all had the white bonnets. However, they managed NOT to show any closeups of Ronon in a bonnet, LOL! This is the closest they got. (Ronon is way in the back, behind Rodney.)

http://i100.photobucket.com/albums/m29/NightSpring/misc/aurora-04382.png


And Kavan, looking almost not dorky, with a little help from a... I believe that's a P-90? :D

http://i100.photobucket.com/albums/m29/NightSpring/misc/ark-7650.png

Chailyn
January 13th, 2007, 09:34 PM
Not in The Ark, but in Aurora, all four team members were in spacesuits. And yes, they all had the white bonnets. However, they managed NOT to show any closeups of Ronon in a bonnet, LOL!

:lol: That is not a good look for David and Joe. So, out of the four of them, David was the only one to wear the bonnet in The Ark? Brave, brave man.



And Kavan, looking almost not dorky, with a little help from a... I believe that's a P-90? :D

I can't believe it, but the man pulls it off! :D

Ouroboros
January 13th, 2007, 09:35 PM
Nope. Not remotely. And for goodness sake, let's please keep the shipping issue out of this thread - we've just gotten back relatively on topic thanks..

What I was saying is that any attempt to save the people in the pod was 99% likely to kill Sheppard and not save the people in the pod anyway. It was a million to one chance that he or they would survive and not just burn up in the atmosphere along with the moon. Why on earth should you expect Sheppard to take those odds? To sacrifice his life for nothing?

Yes the only reason he did it was because of Teyla but the odds hadn't changed - he was still likely to die and still unlikely to save Teyla or the other people in the pod. But Sheppard, being who he is, could not bear to not try and spend his life wondering if maybe, just maybe, he could have saved her.

I would expect Sheppard to try his hardest to save 1,000 people if he could but I would not expect him to willingly give up and die on the slim off-chance of saving those people. I don't see how you can expect that of anyone.


So he'll take the million to one chance for Teyla but not for the 1000 people and the kids. That's exactly what I said. It doesn't matter what the odds actually were of him making it, all that matters is he was willing to risk those odds for Teyla but not for the people. Therefore Teyla mattered more to him than 1000 innnocent lives, including the lives of 200 innocent children.


I think you're being disingenous to suggest that Teyla>1,000 people to Sheppard - that was never stated in the episode and I don't believe it was ever meant to suggest that. What the episode shows is that Sheppard is will to make the ultimate sacrifice, to lay down his life, for even the faintest hope of saving one of his friends.

Yes, for his own personal friends but not for 1000 innocent people and 200 innocent chidren. Exactly what I am saying. 1000 innocent people are of less value to him than Teyla. It's selfishly guided morality of the highest order. "They're my friends and I'm emotionally attached to them so their lives have more value".

PG15
January 13th, 2007, 09:58 PM
I'm not going to try to defend Shep's actions. All I'm gonna say is: I would do exactly what he did. Does that make me morally selfish? Probably, but I don't really care. I would gladly save, say, my mother vs. 1000 people I've never seen or heard of before.

Night Spring
January 13th, 2007, 10:12 PM
:lol: That is not a good look for David and Joe. So, out of the four of them, David was the only one to wear the bonnet in The Ark? Brave, brave man.
Well... I must say the award for bravest man goes to Paul McGillion. :D

http://i100.photobucket.com/albums/m29/NightSpring/misc/ark-6490.png

starfox
January 13th, 2007, 10:45 PM
Yes, for his own personal friends but not for 1000 innocent people and 200 innocent chidren. Exactly what I am saying. 1000 innocent people are of less value to him than Teyla. It's selfishly guided morality of the highest order. "They're my friends and I'm emotionally attached to them so their lives have more value".

Nitpick: the 1000 people included the 200 children. Kids are people, too.
(and what makes it so all-fired important that there are kids, anyway? Killing a kid and killing an adult are the same level of bad, killing the kid just looks worse.)


Also, I'm tempted to believe that Shep didn't even consider the shuttle option until Teyla was trapped. Some people think better under pressure. TV characters generally fit into this category. This wasn't deliberate. It was a believable split-second human response borne of desperation.

Even if Shep did think about and discard the shuttle idea before Teyla got sucked in, so what? The decision was basically throwing his life away. If the shuttle was destroyed, the device would have been destroyed along with him. It's stupidity. It was stupid and selfish to do it for Teyla, but the fact that it's his team member, someone who he has claimed responsibility for, when the people of the planet knew what they were getting into (and probably would have died anyway had the team not showed up; the power source wasn't gonna last forever) is what pushed him to do it.


It's a normal human reaction. I could kill 1000 people I didn't know with much less difficulty than I would have putting a gun to a friend's head, or doing anything to allow or hasten the death of a friend. And if I thought that my dying would stop their deaths, I would lay down my life before allowing either of the above to happen. But Sheppard wasn't dying for these people, he would have been dying with them. And there's no point in throwing yourself away with people you don't know, who you've never seen, who won't feel it, who are just information in a data bank.

It's like the "fight to the death" comment earlier in the show. Ronon didn't just want to sit around and die, so John offered him a way out. He was joking, but the same sentiment applies. He couldn't just let Teyla die. Like the deathmatch, he would have gone out, too, but he would have done something.

Night Spring
January 13th, 2007, 10:46 PM
I'm not going to try to defend Shep's actions. All I'm gonna say is: I would do exactly what he did. Does that make me morally selfish? Probably, but I don't really care. I would gladly save, say, my mother vs. 1000 people I've never seen or heard of before.
My mother? A 1000 strangers? I'm not saving either, I'll just stay safe and sound myself, thank you very much! :p

Mitchell82
January 13th, 2007, 11:35 PM
Not in The Ark, but in Aurora, all four team members were in spacesuits. And yes, they all had the white bonnets. However, they managed NOT to show any closeups of Ronon in a bonnet, LOL! This is the closest they got. (Ronon is way in the back, behind Rodney.)

http://i100.photobucket.com/albums/m29/NightSpring/misc/aurora-04382.png


And Kavan, looking almost not dorky, with a little help from a... I believe that's a P-90? :D

http://i100.photobucket.com/albums/m29/NightSpring/misc/ark-7650.png

LOL nice pics.

Korean_Turtle87
January 14th, 2007, 12:15 AM
when i went to the haunted halloween tour, i got to go into a couple of the sets for this episode. I believe one was the storage device room, and the other was the cockpit

TJuk
January 14th, 2007, 03:06 AM
Well... I must say the award for bravest man goes to Paul McGillion. :D

http://i100.photobucket.com/albums/m29/NightSpring/misc/ark-6490.png

lol..DORK alert!! I want to know why they didn't all have hat hair when they took their wee 'bonnets' off! Shep, well he wasn't wearing one but the rest, Beckett's hair was still that inpecable pointy-do!

And pushing the shallowness aside. The 'bonnets' are what astronauts wear, its to secure their head sets to their heads, zero-g would make anything inside the helmet 'float'. If Shep's inner ear headphones had come out he wouldn't be putting them back in without taking his helmet off!! Having a headphone floating around in front of your face would become a dangerous distraction, not to mention you'd loose communcations (how dumb would thaty be???). I can see him being given the wee bonnet and going NOT THE HAIR NEVER THE HAIR! when someone tried to put it on and touch his 'do'. :p

So the rest were realistic at least.

But then Suicidal Sheppy, the man who just wont die, was never one for realism! Not sure if thats part of his charm or just infurating because the writers use it so much...

Alipeeps
January 14th, 2007, 03:28 AM
And the key word is 'almost'. :p

Yeah, wow...that's bad. Did Teyla and Ronon wear them too? God, I'm trying to picture Ronon having to stuff his hair into one of those bonnets! Okay, bad image.

:lol:

Ronon and Teyla stayed in the jumper at the beginning so we never saw them in spacesuits.


Not in The Ark, but in Aurora, all four team members were in spacesuits. And yes, they all had the white bonnets. However, they managed NOT to show any closeups of Ronon in a bonnet, LOL! This is the closest they got. (Ronon is way in the back, behind Rodney.)

http://i100.photobucket.com/albums/m29/NightSpring/misc/aurora-04382.png



And in fact that is NOT Jason Momoa in any of those scenes (which is why you never see his face in the spacesuit) because they coulnd't fit the spacesuit helmet over his head! It's on the Aurora commentary and I think it's awesome! :D


Nitpick: the 1000 people included the 200 children. Kids are people, too.
(and what makes it so all-fired important that there are kids, anyway? Killing a kid and killing an adult are the same level of bad, killing the kid just looks worse.)

Also, I'm tempted to believe that Shep didn't even consider the shuttle option until Teyla was trapped. Some people think better under pressure. TV characters generally fit into this category. This wasn't deliberate. It was a believable split-second human response borne of desperation.

Even if Shep did think about and discard the shuttle idea before Teyla got sucked in, so what? The decision was basically throwing his life away. If the shuttle was destroyed, the device would have been destroyed along with him. It's stupidity. It was stupid and selfish to do it for Teyla, but the fact that it's his team member, someone who he has claimed responsibility for, when the people of the planet knew what they were getting into (and probably would have died anyway had the team not showed up; the power source wasn't gonna last forever) is what pushed him to do it.

It's a normal human reaction. I could kill 1000 people I didn't know with much less difficulty than I would have putting a gun to a friend's head, or doing anything to allow or hasten the death of a friend. And if I thought that my dying would stop their deaths, I would lay down my life before allowing either of the above to happen. But Sheppard wasn't dying for these people, he would have been dying with them. And there's no point in throwing yourself away with people you don't know, who you've never seen, who won't feel it, who are just information in a data bank.

It's like the "fight to the death" comment earlier in the show. Ronon didn't just want to sit around and die, so John offered him a way out. He was joking, but the same sentiment applies. He couldn't just let Teyla die. Like the deathmatch, he would have gone out, too, but he would have done something.

I'm just gonna leave your entire quoted post in there and say I totally agree. You've explained that far better than I.


when i went to the haunted halloween tour, i got to go into a couple of the sets for this episode. I believe one was the storage device room, and the other was the cockpit

Cool! Lucky you! :D

obsessed1
January 14th, 2007, 03:45 AM
Well... I must say the award for bravest man goes to Paul McGillion. :D

http://i100.photobucket.com/albums/m29/NightSpring/misc/ark-6490.png
LOL!!!

Ouroboros
January 14th, 2007, 04:11 AM
I'm not going to try to defend Shep's actions. All I'm gonna say is: I would do exactly what he did. Does that make me morally selfish? Probably, but I don't really care. I would gladly save, say, my mother vs. 1000 people I've never seen or heard of before.

That's fine, I admit I'd really struggle with it myself, but it would have been cool to see that on the screen huh. I think it's fairly safe to say though that no one would praise you for picking your friends/reletives over 1000 others, I certainly wouldn't expect any praise for it. Questions of human drama and ethics like this should be the bread and butter of a well written script. They used to be about 7-8 years ago on SG-1 a lot of the time.

Like I said above if I had any reason to believe that they would use this as an opportunity to advance Sheppard's character I wouldn't mind it one bit. It's even consistant with his emotion driven personality that he'd do something like that. That doesn't make it right per say, but it does fit with his characterization and it would be interesting to see this explored more.

I'd also like to see him react in some fashion to the realization that others can, and now have, manipulated him fairly easily, and to great effect, with his emotions.

That old man literally saved his civilization solely by manipulating Sheppard's emotions.


Nitpick: the 1000 people included the 200 children. Kids are people, too.
(and what makes it so all-fired important that there are kids, anyway? Killing a kid and killing an adult are the same level of bad, killing the kid just looks worse.)

Yeah I just phrased that badly, I know it's 800/200 and not 1000/200. I'd say killing a kid can be objectively measured to be worse though, they're more defenceless, they have more life to live, they're probably more "innocent"... etc etc.

In any case it's 1000 lives of some variety, I didn't even mention the great artists and what not who's work would die with them or the fact that letting those people would not just be letting 1000 people die but letting a whole civilization be destroyed forever.


Also, I'm tempted to believe that Shep didn't even consider the shuttle option until Teyla was trapped. Some people think better under pressure. TV characters generally fit into this category. This wasn't deliberate. It was a believable split-second human response borne of desperation.

Even if Shep did think about and discard the shuttle idea before Teyla got sucked in, so what? The decision was basically throwing his life away. If the shuttle was destroyed, the device would have been destroyed along with him. It's stupidity. It was stupid and selfish to do it for Teyla, but the fact that it's his team member, someone who he has claimed responsibility for, when the people of the planet knew what they were getting into (and probably would have died anyway had the team not showed up; the power source wasn't gonna last forever) is what pushed him to do it.

Teyla's also a soldier who does what she does with full knowledge that she might not come home one day.

There's two ways you can approach the whole shuttle/device thing.

-Questionable morality on the part of the Sheppard character: He was willing to take the risk for Teyla but not the 1000 people.

-Plot convenience/lame writing: Like you just described about him suddenly "thinking" of a way to save everybody when his girlfriend got stuck but not before. I bang on the bad writing drum a lot though and I think Cuperus is probably the best writer they've got right now (the rest of this episode shows that) so I'm inclined to go with option A. I don't think Cuperus would intentionally write something so contrived as "I suddenly got me a plan, and right in the nick of time to! Convenient huh?" I'd expect that sort of lame cop-out from some of the others, but from what I've seen so far, I seriously think Cuperus is above that. Unless of course his work was screwed with after the fact.

Chailyn
January 14th, 2007, 12:43 PM
Well... I must say the award for bravest man goes to Paul McGillion. :D


LOL! I think you're right. Poor Paul! He's such a good sport. I wonder if Joe refused to wear one. :D


And in fact that is NOT Jason Momoa in any of those scenes (which is why you never see his face in the spacesuit) because they coulnd't fit the spacesuit helmet over his head! It's on the Aurora commentary and I think it's awesome!


:lol: It is awesome. Thanks for sharing the extra info.

the old briar pipe
January 14th, 2007, 02:08 PM
I'd also like to see him react in some fashion to the realization that others can, and now have, manipulated him fairly easily, and to great effect, with his emotions.

That old man literally saved his civilization solely by manipulating Sheppard's emotions.

Good point. I wonder, if Shep thought about it, would he make a conscious effort to change? Or is the risk worth it to him? Or is it even something so ingrained in his view of himself that he can't change without destroying who he is in the process?

Of course, we will never see such a debate on screen. The reset button has been in place ever since season 2, with the slight exception of the last few eps of that season.


Yeah I just phrased that badly, I know it's 800/200 and not 1000/200. I'd say killing a kid can be objectively measured to be worse though, they're more defenceless, they have more life to live, they're probably more "innocent"... etc etc.

Huh. I don't see it as a case of 'innocence' per se, but that we, as the bigger, stronger adults, owe them our protection. It's a species imperative, and therefore an emotional trigger.


In any case it's 1000 lives of some variety, I didn't even mention the great artists and what not who's work would die with them or the fact that letting those people would not just be letting 1000 people die but letting a whole civilization be destroyed forever.

Yeah, that's what really got me - not the lives themselves, though they were important, but that an entire world was sacrificed for the sake of those lives, and to loose them, too? Horrific. Teyla saw that, I think - even while she was arguing with Jamus, she looked like she wanted to cry.


I'd expect that sort of lame cop-out from some of the others, but from what I've seen so far, I seriously think Cuperus is above that. Unless of course his work was screwed with after the fact.

Well, um, actually? It was. Ken came on earlier in this thread and said something to the effect of it being 'polished' by someone else, though of course that's normal for TV scripts, esp. if the writer is not one of the executive ptb. And I don't know what changes were made, so really I should just shut up now. ;)

But yeah, this was a great dilemma, and we should just both add ourselves to the list of people wishing it had been a two-parter, because then there would have been time to show Shep's internal debate or, given Shep, his poorly disguised desperate attempt to avoid an internal debate. :P

telpethoniel
January 14th, 2007, 04:19 PM
I think this episode could be put in with the likes of 'Grace Under Pressure'
It's nice to see an episode where their thrown into a totally different situation
and I agree...it is quite 'early SG1ish'

Easter Lily
January 14th, 2007, 07:48 PM
Finally... I've had time to catch up on some post-holiday viewing.

A good solid episode all round... Interesting that comparisons have been made with Lifeboat because my immediate thought was that it was more like Apollo 13. I liked the feel of it because it wasn't typically Stargate in some ways and the dialogue here was particularly strong.
While it wasn't edge of the seat stuff, I enjoyed the human drama and that brief feeling of claustrophobia.
Good to see Teyla get more than her usual obligatory few lines.

Mitchell82
January 14th, 2007, 09:57 PM
LOL! I think you're right. Poor Paul! He's such a good sport. I wonder if Joe refused to wear one. :D




:lol: It is awesome. Thanks for sharing the extra info.

LOL that's hilarious!

Yagami_Light
January 15th, 2007, 06:13 AM
And uhm MORAL ISSUE...why did nobody seem to care that they killed all their own people with nukes?!?!?! They nuked the damn planet, knowing damn well that only the people on the shuttle would have survived and nobody else. That's horrible...stand together and fight, don't just go homicidal on everyone!

I'd say they didn't have time to care (assuming the "they" you refer to are the Atlantis people). Ronon had previously made his contempt known about just abandoning the second shuttle. Teyla looked pretty disgusted when the whole nuke thing came to light, but things spiraled out of control pretty quickly after that.

ILoveMe
January 15th, 2007, 05:18 PM
I finally got to see this one and I got to say that I really liked it. It's just a classic team adventure ep and that's fine. LOL, I did find it funny that ShepHo was the only that never wore that white hat thing under the space suit. I guess ShepHo wanted to protect his carefully done bedhead hair, lol. Meredith went without the white hat thing for a little while in the middle of the ep, but that was only because he was in a hurry to get the helmet on his head.

Teylarrific
January 16th, 2007, 11:47 AM
http://i100.photobucket.com/albums/m29/NightSpring/misc/ark-6490.png

"This is Carson here . Calling Uranus. Come in!"

...I know , I know it's childish :mckay:

lily
January 24th, 2007, 07:24 AM
It wasn't anything mind-blowing like other episodes this season, but I still loved it.

The plot was good and entertaining, with a few twists to keep it interesting.

As many of you know, I'm an aviation and space nut, so I loved the deserted space station scenario, and I love any scene with John flying anything so that was a plus for me :D

John and Rodney banter. Yes! I always love that!

It was great to see John and Ronon scenes again. Except for Sateda, we hadn't seen much John/Ronon friendship interaction this season. We had seen more in season 2 and I missed that. I think it was my only complaint this season, the lack of John/Ronon interaction. John/Rodney and John/Ronon are my fave friendship pairings. So I was so glad to see the scenes with John and Ronon fighting to close the hatches and the scenes after that, with both of them locked in the compartment. Loved them. And we got Ronon whumping! Yes! Now, had we gotten John whumping simultaneously, the moment would have been perfect in my book. But well, I loved those scenes, so I'm not complaining :D

So Ronon is claustrophobic... I love when we get tidbits like this one about the characters.

Nice to see Lorne and Carson in the rescue mission.

Loved when a piece of the shuttle or some other space junk hits the window and Rodney is relieved that the windows didn't broke down so he says "I'm alive!" and then the window starts to crack and Rodney starts screaming "'m dead, I'm dead" while trying to put his helmet on :D

I loved when Lorne taps Rodney on the helmet :)

I loved when Rodney tells Lorne that they don't leave their people behind. Like John always does.

I loved the scenes with Teyla and Jamus, especially Teyla's last little speech, trying to convince Jamus to open or let her open the hatch.

John with those glasses and glove, cutting through the door with the torch... For some reason, I loved it :)

obsessed1
January 27th, 2007, 10:20 AM
It wasn't anything mind-blowing like other episodes this season, but I still loved it.

The plot was good and entertaining, with a few twists to keep it interesting.

As many of you know, I'm an aviation and space nut, so I loved the deserted space station scenario, and I love any scene with John flying anything so that was a plus for me :D

John and Rodney banter. Yes! I always love that!

It was great to see John and Ronon scenes again. Except for Sateda, we hadn't seen much John/Ronon friendship interaction this season. We had seen more in season 2 and I missed that. I think it was my only complaint this season, the lack of John/Ronon interaction. John/Rodney and John/Ronon are my fave friendship pairings. So I was so glad to see the scenes with John and Ronon fighting to close the hatches and the scenes after that, with both of them locked in the compartment. Loved them. And we got Ronon whumping! Yes! Now, had we gotten John whumping simultaneously, the moment would have been perfect in my book. But well, I loved those scenes, so I'm not complaining :D

So Ronon is claustrophobic... I love when we get tidbits like this one about the characters.

Nice to see Lorne and Carson in the rescue mission.

Loved when a piece of the shuttle or some other space junk hits the window and Rodney is relieved that the windows didn't broke down so he says "I'm alive!" and then the window starts to crack and Rodney starts screaming "'m dead, I'm dead" while trying to put his helmet on :D

I loved when Lorne taps Rodney on the helmet :)

I loved when Rodney tells Lorne that they don't leave their people behind. Like John always does.

I loved the scenes with Teyla and Jamus, especially Teyla's last little speech, trying to convince Jamus to open or let her open the hatch.

John with those glasses and glove, cutting through the door with the torch... For some reason, I loved it :)
how could you not love a man with a blow torch :D

bcfc
February 2nd, 2007, 04:56 PM
God I couldnt stand this episode, It reminded me to much of Lifeboat and that bored me to tears aswell.

Prefer more action.

Trialia
February 14th, 2007, 12:05 PM
Seeing this ep air in full on UK TV tonight, I have to say it just confirmed what I thought before - boring. Pretty CGI does not a decent episode make. The only really good lines were John and Ronon's "fight to the death" exchange and the infirmary scene at the end, other than that it was mediocre.

bluealien
February 14th, 2007, 12:13 PM
Great seeing it on the big screen.

Excellent episode - one of the best of the season.

Great team and character moments.:)

Linzi
February 14th, 2007, 12:27 PM
Great seeing it on the big screen.

Excellent episode - one of the best of the season.

Great team and character moments.:)
I agree. Great episode. Great character interaction. Loved the effects and loved the end - great tension.A solid and entertaining episode with lots of team, just what I like!! :)

lissafoss
February 14th, 2007, 11:42 PM
I was a little disappointed, I think I was just expecting too much. Good episode, but nothing special. It was good to see Lorne and Carson, and I liked that Teyla had a little more to do, but all she did was get trapped in a room. Even Sheppard saving the day was a little boring for me. We knew he wasn’t going to die and would some how manage to land it.

beale947
February 15th, 2007, 12:20 AM
This was a very boring episode. There was no feeling of tension, it was all very predictable, and that guy who committed sucide, why did it have to be so dramatic? A very boring filler, filled with stupid ideas and plots to make it work. The only good parts, were some of the mediocre team interaction. This was the first episode where I felt it was a waste of my time watching it.

3/10

Matt G
February 15th, 2007, 02:56 PM
OK...

1. First thing off my chest. Sheppard pulling that mad gamble for 'anyone' is 'not' a basic obligation like some seem to be suggesting. It's a BIG DEAL! It would have been a VERY BIG DEAL had he done so for just for 1000 people that he had no reason to care about whatsoever.

2. Having said that, how come Weir felt Sheppard needed his head examining in this ep but not after his mad stunt in Echoes which also had no right to work whatsoever?

3. Character wise, everyone put in a solid performance, however story wise this really just felt like filler.

Overall, I'd probably say the Game was better than this.

m_wendy_r
February 18th, 2007, 04:30 AM
how could you not love a man with a blow torch :D ;) LMAO.


I'm not going to try to defend Shep's actions. All I'm gonna say is: I would do exactly what he did. Does that make me morally selfish? Probably, but I don't really care. I would gladly save, say, my mother vs. 1000 people I've never seen or heard of before.

Which is the most normal reaction to have I think. The same way a mother would never kill anyone unless they threatened her baby, not someone elses, only hers. I would jump into a fire with both legs if someone from my family needed me to do so to save their lives but I'd hesitate if it was someone/some people that I did not know. That'd be human nature. :)

I loved this episode, although I didn't like the opening teaser. I hate it when they show you a small piece of the end sequence and then say 8 hours earlier. I find that I can easily predict what's going to happen without them showing me anyway.

But overall, I loved the episode. I loved Teyla in this one, she said some great lines and it was interesting to see her lie over the radio to Rodney so that the man wouldn't know the truth but he figured it out anyway so ...

Ronon putting his shoulder back into place was hilarious. I would've thought Shep would've seen that coming. LOL.

Wendy
Hugs :)

Trialia
February 18th, 2007, 10:39 AM
m_wendy_r -- gotta say, Ronon putting his own shoulder back in, that must have hurt. Hurts me to do it when mine come out and he's got a lot more muscle than I do. :P

m_wendy_r
February 19th, 2007, 02:01 AM
m_wendy_r -- gotta say, Ronon putting his own shoulder back in, that must have hurt. Hurts me to do it when mine come out and he's got a lot more muscle than I do. :P

Yeah, that had to hurt. I could so not do that. I'd be screaming. I assume it's better in than out though so at least Ronon had the guts to do it. :D

Wendy
Hugs :)

Trialia
February 19th, 2007, 06:02 AM
Oh, yes. Trust me, it hurts like hell even when you're not as muscular as he is. :P Hugs back.

Puddle-Jumper
February 22nd, 2007, 06:06 AM
Look at this picture
I ain't sure if this is allowed but any way
Here is the link http://www.stargatecaps.com/sga/s3/316/html/theark0270.html

A snickers paper!!!!!!!!
And for those of you that didn't see the episode thats an alien ship that never had any contact with earth

P-90_177
February 22nd, 2007, 06:19 AM
First of all. No link. Second of all it's sort of old news.
It is kind of funny though. I wonder who the slacker was who was eating their lunch on set?

Puddle-Jumper
February 22nd, 2007, 06:21 AM
First of all. No link. Second of all it's sort of old news.
It is kind of funny though. I wonder who the slacker was who was eating their lunch on set?

I fixed the link and I never saw a thread bout this here sorry if there was

Elite Anubis Guard
February 22nd, 2007, 06:50 AM
I loved this episode. It really had that 60s vibe that John commented on :P I loved the sets and the very idea of the episode.

Listy
February 24th, 2007, 12:23 PM
I really liked this ep!

Gave me a few tense moments. I liked the scene showing Sheppard offering to fight Ronon to the death, made me giggle and broke the tension a little for me. I also really liked the fact that Sheppard risked his own life to save a member of his team, a very JS thing to do.

The last scene was fab, nice way to end it.

IMHO all in all a good ep.

Hatusu
May 18th, 2007, 06:55 PM
Fun episode. I loved Rodney's reactions to the space debris coming toward the window. It was right on. I would have reacted exactly the same way. :D

Their space shuttle must have tiles that stay on better than ours. :cool: As improbable as it was, the shuttle landing, and the build up to it were entertaining.

the fifth man
May 18th, 2007, 06:58 PM
Definitely a good episode. Not the best this season or anything, but entertaining.

FoolishPleasure
May 18th, 2007, 07:24 PM
I watched this with my 15 year old son, who gave commentary all the way through that kept me snickering with comments such as,

"Wow, they are all stored in the computer just like that SG1 episode Lifeboat."

"How many hours of that guy opening hatches are we gonna sit through?"

"How many scenes of people sitting around, waiting for rescue are we going to sit through?"

"How long are we going to watch Rodney close hatches?"

"Can I flip to G4 now?"

"Ooooh, old dude grabbed Teyla's gun! Come on, he's severely injured, she can't use her super warrior skills to knock that gun outta his hand?

"Gee, he wants to kill himself, and everyone else, just like the first idiot."

"How does Sheppard know how to fly an alien ship that he's never seen before?"

"Sheppard survived? Yeah, right."

His comment at the end was:

"Well, that was lame, and I missed Ninja Warrior."

That says it all.

monkey_man132
May 18th, 2007, 07:35 PM
I watched this with my 15 year old son, who gave commentary all the way through that kept me snickering with comments such as,

"Wow, they are all stored in the computer just like that SG1 episode Lifeboat."

"How many hours of that guy opening hatches are we gonna sit through?"

"How many scenes of people sitting around, waiting for rescue are we going to sit through?"

"How long are we going to watch Rodney close hatches?"

"Can I flip to G4 now?"

"Ooooh, old dude grabbed Teyla's gun! Come on, he's severely injured, she can't use her super warrior skills to knock that gun outta his hand?

"Gee, he wants to kill himself, and everyone else, just like the first idiot."

"How does Sheppard know how to fly an alien ship that he's never seen before?"

"Sheppard survived? Yeah, right."

His comment at the end was:

"Well, that was lame, and I missed Ninja Warrior."

That says it all. LOL thats funny because I'm 15 and I was thinking similar things. I absoluterly hate Sheppard flying the shuttle. I understand hes a pilot but did you see him swinging around in the pilot chair pressing all those buttons, "I'm switching to backups", how would he know how to do that? The episode was entertaining but annoying and improbable.



Their space shuttle must have tiles that stay on better than ours. :cool: As improbable as it was, the shuttle landing, and the build up to it were entertaining.
:o Yea our shuttles stink, *sighes*.

FoolishPleasure
May 18th, 2007, 07:47 PM
LOL thats funny because I'm 15 and I was thinking similar things. I absoluterly hate Sheppard flying the shuttle. I understand hes a pilot but did you see him swinging around in the pilot chair pressing all those buttons, "I'm switching to backups", how would he know how to do that? The episode was entertaining but annoying and improbable.

:o Yea our shuttles stink, *sighes*.

My son said the same thing! "How the hell does he know where the backup is? And those panels can't be in English!" *ROTFLMAO*

monkey_man132
May 18th, 2007, 07:58 PM
Cool! :D:D

I hate how he can fly Darts also, at least it showed him learning how to fly that a little. The funniest thing is that the shuttle had buttons that were only little blue dots. Theres no way he could have flied that. Maybe if he just turned it on and moved it, but he was activating backup systems and taking off from a station...I don't think so.

ColCaldwell
May 18th, 2007, 08:27 PM
Alright episode, but we keep getting more and more to see how selfish of a person Sheppard is. He wouldn't save 1000 people but he would save Teyla. He demonstrated this exactly in Sateda where he was willing to risk everyone on the Daedalus for Ronon.

monkey_man132
May 18th, 2007, 08:29 PM
He demonstrated this exactly in Sateda where he was willing to risk everyone on the Daedalus for Ronon. :confused: How did he risk the Daedalus again?

ColCaldwell
May 18th, 2007, 08:32 PM
:confused: How did he risk the Daedalus again?



The gate on Sateda had been destroyed and the Orion was destroyed in the season opener, leaving the Daedalus to reach it. But Sheppard had no problem risking everyone on the ship against a hive ship to save Ronon.

PG15
May 18th, 2007, 08:34 PM
Shep is just being consistent, "We don't leave our people behind", remember?

Besides, you just want Caldwell to take over. ;)

ColCaldwell
May 18th, 2007, 08:36 PM
Shep is just being consistent, "We don't leave our people behind", remember?

Besides, you just want Caldwell to take over. ;)

True, I wouldn't mind seeing Caldwell take over, but I wouldn't mind Col Ellis or some other COMPETENT CO to take over the military expedition. I just find it funny he is willing to risk 1000's of lives. He has been doing this since Season 1.

monkey_man132
May 18th, 2007, 08:36 PM
Shep is just being consistent, "We don't leave our people behind", remember?

Besides, you just want Caldwell to take over. ;)Yea, I got tired of hearing that. It only sounds cool and inspiring once, maybe twice. After like 5 times....only Hermiod saying it would have sounded cool at that point.

PG15
May 18th, 2007, 08:39 PM
Eh? That doesn't make it any less true.

I would've made the same decision as him.

Ruined_puzzle
May 18th, 2007, 08:43 PM
I watched this with my 15 year old son, who gave commentary all the way through that kept me snickering with comments such as,

"Wow, they are all stored in the computer just like that SG1 episode Lifeboat."

"How many hours of that guy opening hatches are we gonna sit through?"

"How many scenes of people sitting around, waiting for rescue are we going to sit through?"

"How long are we going to watch Rodney close hatches?"

"Can I flip to G4 now?"

"Ooooh, old dude grabbed Teyla's gun! Come on, he's severely injured, she can't use her super warrior skills to knock that gun outta his hand?

"Gee, he wants to kill himself, and everyone else, just like the first idiot."

"How does Sheppard know how to fly an alien ship that he's never seen before?"

"Sheppard survived? Yeah, right."

His comment at the end was:

"Well, that was lame, and I missed Ninja Warrior."

That says it all.

Hahaha, that was more entertaining than the episode. Which I saw months ago, well I saw parts of it. I got bored.

LadyBozi
May 18th, 2007, 10:39 PM
That was ... urm... yyyyyeah..
Let me give it a nice shiny 2/10 ...ONE OF THE WORST episodes of the seasons. @[email protected] It was boring and...just a 'WTF' type of episode. There were maybe two or three enjoyable moments...& on top of that.. What happened to some of the Chracters?! -_-;;

Rootortoise
May 19th, 2007, 06:27 AM
Fun episode. I loved Rodney's reactions to the space debris coming toward the window. It was right on. I would have reacted exactly the same way. :D

Their space shuttle must have tiles that stay on better than ours. :cool: As improbable as it was, the shuttle landing, and the build up to it were entertaining.



Alright episode, but we keep getting more and more to see how selfish of a person Sheppard is. He wouldn't save 1000 people but he would save Teyla. He demonstrated this exactly in Sateda where he was willing to risk everyone on the Daedalus for Ronon.

heh yes a lot of people thought the shuttle thing was improbable and people questioned why shep would risk his life to save teyla and not the 1000 people.....but if you look at Ken Is Here's comments in the early stages of this thread (this is Ken Cuperus, the writer of this episode, who was in here after it aired in canada) explains both.

also shep didnt risk the deddy in sateda, in fact he compromised and asked the deddy take them as far as possible and they puddlejumpered the rest of the way. not that this has anything to do with the ep, the ark which i really loved, admittedly some bits bored me but it wasnt enough to detract from my enjoyment of the ep.

nowvoyager908
May 19th, 2007, 10:16 AM
The episode was okay, nothing to write home about. The only bits that made any impression where John's reaction to Ronon's "relocating" his shoulder and the fight to the death comments. LOL. Otherwise. . . meh!

bluealien
May 19th, 2007, 11:18 AM
Excellent episode - one of my favourites from season three.... so many great moments.

Linzi
May 19th, 2007, 11:35 AM
Excellent episode - one of my favourites from season three.... so many great moments.
I loved it too! :)