PDA

View Full Version : The Game (315)



Pages : [1] 2 3

GateWorld
November 19th, 2006, 08:49 PM
<DIV ALIGN="center"><TABLE WIDTH="450" BORDER="0" CELLSPACING="0" CELLPADDING="7"><TR><TD><DIV ALIGN="left"><FONT FACE="Verdana, Arial, san-serif" SIZE="2" COLOR="#000000"><A HREF="http://www.gateworld.net/atlantis/s3/315.shtml"><IMG SRC="http://www.gateworld.net/atlantis/graphics/315.jpg" WIDTH="160" HEIGHT="120" ALIGN="right" HSPACE="10" VSPACE="2" BORDER="0" STYLE="border: 1px black solid" ALT="Visit the Episode Guide"></A><FONT SIZE="1" COLOR="#888888">ATLANTIS SEASON THREE</FONT>
<FONT SIZE="4"><A HREF="http://www.gateworld.net/atlantis/s3/315.shtml" STYLE="text-decoration: none">THE GAME</A></FONT>
<FONT SIZE="1">EPISODE NUMBER - 315</FONT>
<IMG SRC="/images/clear.gif" WIDTH="1" HEIGHT="10" ALT="">
Sheppard and McKay discover that their competitive video game has been controlling a planet of real people, who now stand on the brink of war.

<FONT SIZE="1" COLOR="#888888"><B><A HREF="http://www.gateworld.net/atlantis/s3/315.shtml">VISIT THE EPISODE GUIDE ></A></B>
SPOILERS! PHOTOS! AND MORE!</FONT></FONT></DIV></TD></TR></TABLE></DIV>

kiwigater
December 19th, 2006, 12:44 AM
Seek and ye shall find.... :)
Let's hear all about the new ep - aired in Canada first.

IWKYZerocool
December 19th, 2006, 01:03 AM
I doubt we will get any info on this epsiode until much later as the people who have seen this epsiode are still asleep or just getting up.

Merlin7
December 19th, 2006, 02:38 AM
I really liked it. Much better than Tao, which was a huge disappointment for me.

ROdney and Shep were funny. Lorne and Zelenka cracked me up. Just watching Shep and Rodney's reactions and realizations was awesome. And you can see how far they've come as friends. I mean..they hang out playing war games. And Chess. And Shep kicked Rodney's butt at Chess. Very awesome.

Can't wait to get home from work to watch again.

sgeureka
December 19th, 2006, 02:46 AM
The beginning was very funny. I even had to laugh out loud when Sheppard and McKay continued to bicker about how the game worked. And it was also good that this ep made it obvious very fast (within five or seven minutes) that the game was connected to those two [real] civilizations, so it didn't drag like "Michael" for those of us who had read the synopsis.

The farther we got into the episode, the less funny it became. Admittedly, there were still very funny scenes later on, like Lorne and Zelenka (I'll just say it: I LOVE Zelenka) became another Sheppard vs. McKay, and when they got interrupted by Weir, they looked so oops-hand-in-the-cookie-jar. Yes, quite addictive, those computer games.

Other random notes:
- The topic of this ep hasn't really been explored yet in Stargate, although it later felt like "The Other Side".
- Since when are mission video conversations (Lorne) in widescreen?
- McKay and his preference for blondes :D
- The end: very surprising to me, although that was the fastest twist to reset everything without having to leave the people for death. I just didn't see it coming.
- McKay and Sheppard will have their wars on chess boards from now on.

travis
December 19th, 2006, 02:50 AM
OOoh it sounds soooo good cant wait to see it:)

Starxgate
December 19th, 2006, 03:01 AM
Not bad at all the best part for me was probably seeing Lorne and Zelenka yelling at each others throats. Theres alot of vey funny WTF face expressions in this episode

Willow'sCat
December 19th, 2006, 03:15 AM
This was...hmm... a slight eppy. It was nice but nothing special it was much better then I thought it would be, I had horrible thoughts of War Game or something, but it wasn't too far fetched *well yeah OK it was* I could still believe in the PG that the Ancients would frak about with people's lives just for the hell of it *oh sorry, I mean make a social experiment to learn* :rolleyes: Jeez the Ancients are a bundle of laughs aren't they.

So did McKay say he had dinner with Katie Brown again? :) Interesting. And yet McKay still has this weird thing for Sam like females... that also wasn't as bad as I thought it would be, at least he didn't drool. Sheppard annoyed me :p or more to the point, seeing him as just a military man annoyed me, he has a brain but he still went with built up the weapons?

It doesn't seem he was thinking much at all there, has he learnt nothing from recent events? I guess most of this happened before the whole Wraith thing really got out of control but still, he seems to have left his brain behind if that was his only response to what McKay was doing.

I liked Weir in this *I know* but she said and did the right things for a change and it made sense so I liked it.

Nice to see Zelenka/Lorne and not just for two seconds, it was funny and they are kind of the under-studies for McKay/Sheppard. :D

Sadly no great presence in this ep for Teyla and Ronon, yes they were there but very much in the shadows of McKay/Sheppard.

The solution or resolution was a little too easy, a little hard to swallow but this is Stargate.

I loved the ending, now that to me is team or friendship building not the other crap from M&MM or ToR. ;) I was so, so very happy to see them playing chess.

sgeureka
December 19th, 2006, 03:37 AM
[snip] Sheppard annoyed me :p or more to the point, seeing him as just a military man annoyed me, he has a brain but he still went with built up the weapons?

It doesn't seem he was thinking much at all there, has he learnt nothing from recent events? I guess most of this happened before the whole Wraith thing really got out of control but still, he seems to have left his brain behind if that was his only response to what McKay was doing.You're talking about his computer game strategy here, not his attitute to the people while he was there, yes? Because I think he made it clear that he wanted to stop the real-life war as fast as possible.

I don't know how you're playing your computer strategy games, but my acknowledgement of recent events do not change my game strategies. I'm of a rather pacifist nature, but in Civilization II/III (which is what The Game was most similar to) I'm the make scientific progress progress progress kind, then invent superior weapons and sweep over all other civilizations who are still protecting themselves with medieval technology. Evil, but that's how I know I'll win. The rest doesn't matter.

Linzi
December 19th, 2006, 04:16 AM
You're talking about his computer game strategy here, not his attitute to the people while he was there, yes? Because I think he made it clear that he wanted to stop the real-life war as fast as possible.

I don't know how you're playing your computer strategy games, but my acknowledgement of recent events do not change my game strategies. I'm of a rather pacifist nature, but in Civilization II/III (which is what The Game was most similar to) I'm the make scientific progress progress progress kind, then invent superior weapons and sweep over all other civilizations who are still protecting themselves with medieval technology. Evil, but that's how I know I'll win. The rest doesn't matter.
I agree.
Sheppard and McKay were playing a game, and their strategies were those of two guys playing a game, not how you'd react, or the decisions you'd make for that matter either, in a real life situation. This was proven later when Sheppard desperately tried to get Baden (sp?) to stand down, as indeed McKay tried to talk Nola to step back and not be aggressive.
Rodney cheated and really caused the war in the first place by giving advanced technology he wasn't supposed to to his 'people' and by ordering them to drill a tunnel to steal coal from Sheppard's peoples land. So, he wasn't exactly using his brain either, as that would obviously have caused a serious dispute. Trespassing on your neighbours land and stealing their resources isn't exactly peace loving or overly intelligent either. So he was just as bad as Sheppard here. Since when is giving advanced technology to undeveloped societies intelligent either? As was proven by this story, there is a reason why it shouldn't be done!
Bottom line - the two guys were playing a game, and the ramifications didn't need to be thought about as they thought it was just that. Each just wanted to out do the other.
Anyway, I enjoyed this episode. It was a little 'clunky' in places, and a little lacking in tension too, for my taste.
I liked the resolution. Who thought of that? Oh yes, it was Sheppard, not bad for a military grunt, eh?. He saved the day, with the help of the Daedalus, so obviously he isn't all about agression and war mongering after all ;)
I liked that Zelenka and Lorne got carried away with their own game. It illustrates plainly how easy it is to abuse power, and I thought the inclusion of that scene was very important, as well as very entertaining.
As usual, I loved the Sheppard/McKay interaction. They bicker like best friends do, and that is a joy to watch.
I must admit the closing scene was fantastic. Sheppard beat McKay at chess. Rodney's spluttering was classic! So, Shep can outthink the great genius! :lol: Classic stuff!

Buzz Lightyear
December 19th, 2006, 04:17 AM
Episode summary for "The Game":

While investigating a space gate above an unexplored planet, Major Lorne’s team notices small satellites in geosynchronous orbit. Upon checking out one of the villages, they discover what seems to be a pre-industrial culture, obviously incapable of launching satellites. Even more of a mystery is the village flag bearing Dr. McKay’s face.

It seems that a few months after the expedition first arrived in Atlantis, McKay and Sheppard found a room with computer consoles that McKay concluded was for playing the Ancients’ version of simulation/strategy games like Civilization and SimCity. In the database, they found two societies separated by a river. They decided to play the game in their spare time, with each assuming control over one of the societies.

Dr. Weir sends Sheppard and his team to the planet in question to find out what is really going on . As it turns out, these societies are very real and part of social experiments conducted by the Ancients. Information entered in Atlantis is transmitted via satellites to display consoles in the two countries. Unbeknownst to them, McKay and Sheppard have been acting as their respective villages’ “oracles”, guiding their civilization and development over the past two years. While McKay encouraged his country of Geldar to concentrate on advancements in the fields of science and technology, Sheppard had his country of Hallona focusing on improving military strength to maintain safety and security.

When the team meets the leaders of Geldar and Hallona, they find the two sides near the brink of war with each other over philosophical differences essentially introduced by Sheppard and McKay during their two year-old “game”. The leaders are brought back to Atlantis where the truth of the “oracles” is revealed to them. Despite this revelation, their antagonism toward each other does not change. Even Dr. Weir is unable to broker peace and hostilities eventually break out.

Before the situation can deteriorate further, the team, with some help from the Daedalus, is able to show both Geldar and Hallona what a real war would be like if they do not settle their disagreements peacefully.

Starxgate
December 19th, 2006, 04:23 AM
Since when is giving advanced technology to undeveloped societies intelligent either? As was proven by this story, there is a reason why it shouldn't be done!!

Remember the early seasons of SG-1 ? Most of SG-1s "allies" refused to give them technology becaused they knew what would eventually happen. This episode prooves it

Buba uognarf
December 19th, 2006, 04:32 AM
Episode summary for "The Game":

While investigating a space gate above an unexplored planet, Major Lorne’s team notices small satellites in geosynchronous orbit. Upon checking out one of the villages, they discover what seems to be a pre-industrial culture, obviously incapable of launching satellites. Even more of a mystery is the village flag bearing Dr. McKay’s face.

It seems that a few months after the expedition first arrived in Atlantis, McKay and Sheppard found a room with computer consoles that McKay concluded was for playing the Ancients’ version of simulation/strategy games like Civilization and SimCity. In the database, they found two societies separated by a river. They decided to play the game in their spare time, with each assuming control over one of the societies.

Dr. Weir sends Sheppard and his team to the planet in question to find out what is really going on . As it turns out, these societies are very real and part of social experiments conducted by the Ancients. Information entered in Atlantis is transmitted via satellites to display consoles in the two countries. Unbeknownst to them, McKay and Sheppard have been acting as their respective villages’ “oracles”, guiding their civilization and development over the past two years. While McKay encouraged his country of Geldar to concentrate on advancements in the fields of science and technology, Sheppard had his country of Hallona focusing on improving military strength to maintain safety and security.

When the team meets the leaders of Geldar and Hallona, they find the two sides near the brink of war with each other over philosophical differences essentially introduced by Sheppard and McKay during their two year-old “game”. The leaders are brought back to Atlantis where the truth of the “oracles” is revealed to them. Despite this revelation, their antagonism toward each other does not change. Even Dr. Weir is unable to broker peace and hostilities eventually break out.

Before the situation can deteriorate further, the team, with some help from the Daedalus, is able to show both Geldar and Hallona what a real war would be like if they do not settle their disagreements peacefully.

you may want to put that in spoilers, some people may not want the entire episode completely spoiled

Linzi
December 19th, 2006, 04:37 AM
Remember the early seasons of SG-1 ? Most of SG-1s "allies" refused to give them technology becaused they knew what would eventually happen. This episode prooves it
Agreed. Good point! :)

IWKYZerocool
December 19th, 2006, 04:39 AM
you may want to put that in spoilers, some people may not want the entire episode completely spoiled

Yes but this forum is just for The Game so no spoilers are required.

Buba uognarf
December 19th, 2006, 04:45 AM
Yes but this forum is just for The Game so no spoilers are required.

i know i was just thinking that some people may be after just a small taste of the episode not neccessarily the whole thing...i don't mind i was happy to read it, but others might not want a complete summary

IWKYZerocool
December 19th, 2006, 04:51 AM
i know i was just thinking that some people may be after just a small taste of the episode not neccessarily the whole thing...i don't mind i was happy to read it, but others might not want a complete summary

Ok, i see where you are going, I like having this much info, it gives me something to read about and look forward to it even more.

Buba uognarf
December 19th, 2006, 04:53 AM
Ok, i see where you are going, I like having this much info, it gives me something to read about and look forward to it even more.

yeah so do i, but others might not which is all i was saying...anyway no point arguing:) i find the whole idea of a flag with Rodneys face on it hilarious! :D

Linzi
December 19th, 2006, 05:24 AM
Yes but this forum is just for The Game so no spoilers are required.
Agreed. It's for discussion of anything to do with the episode, therefore don't come here if you don't want to be spoiled!!! :)

Arctic Penguin
December 19th, 2006, 05:33 AM
Good ep. The mckay and sheppard banter was hilarious. I loved mckay putting his pic on the flags and walls. While there wasn’t that much tension throughout the episode it had good moments.
lorne and zelenka getting caught playing the game was funny but also showed how helping a little can lead to the problems mckay and sheppard had caused. The chess scene at the end with mckay and sheppard still arguing about cheating was a great show of the friendship they have. teyla and ronan could have been used more although the opening scene with mckay discussing the moral choice was a great team moment.

chemicalNova
December 19th, 2006, 05:33 AM
I didn't like it as much as I thought I would. I thought there would be alot of CG work on the Atlantis end, and then a comparison on the planet end or something....dunno, just didn't sit with me.

Good relations between Sheppard and McKay though, they crack me up.

chem

Lord Iceman
December 19th, 2006, 07:13 AM
you may want to put that in spoilers, some people may not want the entire episode completely spoiled

Than I would think they shouldn't be in the thread for the episode:)

SGAFan
December 19th, 2006, 07:15 AM
I thought it was a good ep. Specatcular? One I'll watch over and over? One that glued me to the screen? No, no, and no. *G* It was solid, it had its funny moments (once again, the McKay and Sheppard banter delivers! :D ) and I liked how they touched on the ethical dilemma of just trying to help. (the whole "Road to Damnation is Paved with Good Intentions" thing. *G*) All Radek wanted originally, was to help a bunch of people keep from starving to death. But how much is good and how much is too much?

I thought the ethical scenario Rodney was trying to discuss with the team in the beginning was funny. Poor McKay, Ronon just doesn't do well with "What if" scenarios. :mckay: I think Shep knew what Rodney was trying to do, but he was messing with him. LOL

Go Shep! Winning the chess game in the end. :lol: Like to see them touch on his MENSA brainpower every once in a while. LOL

Overall, solid episode, but not one of my favs for the season. I think things will pick up from here for the end of the season. ;)

silence
December 19th, 2006, 08:19 AM
I liked this ep. Weir had her moments...
All that citrus stuff while negotiating... that was great....
Rodney using JFK quote... i was laughing really hard...
Zelenka / Lorne? .. too good.. getting caught... :D

Didn't expect to resolve the way it did... anyway, good writing. If i can remove Lucius eps from this season i think it's best so far... some really great eps with rest above average... (i guess they made Lucius eps so we can appreciat the rest ;) )

ata_beckett
December 19th, 2006, 08:20 AM
Ugh.

Definitely not my favorite episode of the season. Usually, even with the stand-alone eps, I can watch and be drawn in by the plot, this episode, however, didn't do that. The Shep and McKay banter wasn't as good as in the last few episodes, and the two representatives from the countries (I forget their names) weren't compelling enough in their acting or their dialogue to make me care about them. Additionally, while I think Rodney's Samantha Carter obsession is neat little character thing--they're overdoing it.

This, along with Progeny is one of my least favorite episodes of Season 3. :zelenka26:

Gotta love the Zelenka screen time though.

Ltcolshepjumper
December 19th, 2006, 08:25 AM
Ugh.

Definitely not my favorite episode of the season. Usually, even with the stand-alone eps, I can watch and be drawn in by the plot, this episode, however, didn't do that. The Shep and McKay banter wasn't as good as in the last few episodes, and the two representatives from the countries (I forget their names) weren't compelling enough in their acting or their dialogue to make me care about them. Additionally, while I think Rodney's Samantha Carter obsession is neat little character thing--they're overdoing it.

This, along with Progeny is one of my least favorite episodes of Season 3. :zelenka26:

Gotta love the Zelenka screen time though.

Agreed. Progeny, though, was sort of like an introduction to the Asurans similar to the way that The Return pt.1 was a setup episode for pt.2.

OneSarcasticChick
December 19th, 2006, 09:18 AM
A thought...

Near the beginning of the episode, McKay made some comment about creating the characters of the 'game' - what his exact words were I don't remember, maybe knowing would help clear up my question.. ;)

part a

i wanna know why john's 'leader' figure looked so thug-crossed-with-a-hun'ish w/ a brit accent. i mean, that's not who i pictured as his vision of a 'leader'. granted, he kept with the 'times' as far as what he did w/ the game, but still.

part b

rodney's character is blonde and a sam-lookalike. no surprise if he created her. however, the characters said that they existed before the 'oracle' returned. additionally, there's evidence of the game 'continuing' without intervention as per the scenes w/ lorne/zelenka as well as other discussions involving weir.

so...i'm confused. did not!carter always exist? that would negate what rodney originally said about creating characters. did not!jason stathom exist before john? in john's case, that would make sense as he doesn't fit with what i would have envisioned john creating as a 'leader' but then that doesn't explain rodney's not!carter.

in the episode, not!carter came to become the leader after her passionate faith in the oracle. so i could see rodney toying with the 'character' to put her in power, but he didn't create her? so she's not really not!carter, she's really an existing character in the game that he found and liked?

in addition to all that, if they were just created, they possess a remarkable self-awareness, intelligence and adaptibility. did john and rodney 'program' a certain intelligence while they played? if they were just created, where's the ancient tech to create them?

if one assumes that they exisisted prior to rodney/john's game playing and the leaders of the people in the game simply possessed the characteristics that rodney/john valued in a leader which brought them to the forefront (frightening) then what was all that about creating characters in the beginning? not to mention the additional darker tones that would bring regarding power and control (an argument of Lucius' phermone drug could probably be brought up, but i fear bringing that to this thread ;) ) as far as the Ancients went, john/rodney, the thus then rather frightening scene between lorne and zelenka who knew full-well what was happening, etc...

that was rather lengthy. my apologies ;)

- jo

ShoDar
December 19th, 2006, 09:31 AM
I don't think they created the people, just the styles. It's easy enough to dye and cut hair afterall...and she might have been elected by her people after Rodney took over partly because she exemplified the new "ideal".... I do agree that Sheppard's guy didn't really suit him...though it may be evidence of the differing levels of influence the two exerted. The girl from Geldar sounded just like Rodney whereas the guy from Sheppard's country sounded like the kind of military commander that Sheppard hates...he didn't have the other aspects of influence from John.


Anyway, good ep from a stand-alone plot persepctive but not one of my favs for the season. I'd probably like it better if I wasn't so interested in where they're going with the characters right now and how PM will leave and how it will affect the others. When I see this in reruns, I'll probably enjoy it more.

ShoDar
December 19th, 2006, 09:34 AM
Oh and Zalenka and Lorne made this episode so much better. I loved their interaction. It was very funny and showed both characters to be developed and have friendships even though they aren't on screen very often. The fact that recurring characters aren't too 1D is one of the reasons why I like this show :)

OneSarcasticChick
December 19th, 2006, 09:57 AM
I don't think they created the people, just the styles. It's easy enough to dye and cut hair afterall...

True that, I just can't remember the scene where Rodney was picking out his 'character (ala Total Recall, anyone?) ... weir/john/rodney talked about the people in the game, but i don't recall as to whether or not rodney said they 'created' the characters (which would imply far more involvement in the character than just picking the hairstyle) or what...

The Ori
December 19th, 2006, 10:49 AM
I'm gonna watch it in about an hour's time, seriously can't wait. But what about episode 14 "Sunday"? Will they just put that on another day?

gopher65
December 19th, 2006, 11:13 AM
I liked this standalone ep.

They didn't "create" the characters. The people existed. Rodney and Sheppard were however able to alter any segments of the societies that they wanted to. Each concentrated on what they felt was important. Shep concentrated on large scale society, while Rodney micromanaged hairstyles, flags, clothes, and individual technologies (and fruit obsessions LOL. The blue jello thing was funny too).

Because of this, Sheppard's people were much more 'themselves' than Rodney's were. Therefore Rodney's people were much more representative of his personality than Shep's people were of his. It was simply a matter of priorities for each player.

SallyLizzie
December 19th, 2006, 11:38 AM
I'm gonna watch it in about an hour's time, seriously can't wait. But what about episode 14 "Sunday"? Will they just put that on another day?
Best guess at the moment, based on various rumours, is that The Ark is next, followed by Sunday.

FallenAngelII
December 19th, 2006, 11:39 AM
Does anyone else feel that the entire war was most John's fault? Rodney was giving his people technology, yes, but John immediately interpreted that as them planning to one day overthrow his people.

Then came the treaty negotiations. Sure, Rodney's demands were high-strung but John retaliated by the immature gesture of sending him things he knew Rodney was deadly allergic to.

And then whenever they talked about it in front of Baten, John kept sneering about how Rodney "cheated" and blah blah, showing off hostility, which Baten no doubt picked up.

And how stupid don't you have to be to realize that that typing and those beeps you just heard was Baten inputting commands into the console?!

Sure, Rodney was partly to blame. The thing with the coal was a low blow, but what the heck was John doing with it, anyway? Her was just letting it sit there.

Sure, Rodney did things that set things in motion. But every single time, it was John's reactions that triggered the inevitable war.

Had John not been as immature and war-hawky, they would still have had peace, only with a botched trade treaty.

Praetorian
December 19th, 2006, 11:44 AM
Most of the military build up and increasing hostilities began long before they found out that it wasnt a game. While John wanted to beat Rodney he thought that if things went bad then it was just a game and wouldnt matter very much. You cant really blame him.

FallenAngelII
December 19th, 2006, 11:53 AM
Most of the military build up and increasing hostilities began long before they found out that it wasnt a game. While John wanted to beat Rodney he thought that if things went bad then it was just a game and wouldnt matter very much. You cant really blame him.
Yes, but had it been, oh, say, Zelenka, he wouldn't have increased the size of his army. And he wouldn't constantly be showing hostility towards Rodney's "cheating" when discussing delicate matters such as why to not go to war!

TJuk
December 19th, 2006, 11:54 AM
Mediocre ep not bad just total filler for sure. I saw this once, it was a comedy sketch reversing roles, the dungeons and dragons characters were playing with real life style characters. It was amusing, this episode was indeed amusing however the fact its yet again the Rodney and Sheppard show just annoys me. It did have some interesting bits for Lorne, Weir and Dr Z. I so wish Weir would have smacked someone upside the head! No Beckett...AGAIN. So he has what, a max of 2 eps left? We know he's in 'The Ark' and Sunday is supposed to air after. So much for Paul McGillion being a regular he got what, 12 eps this season? Thanks PTB, you sure know how to treat your 'popular' characters, well ones that names done begin with 'Rodney' or 'John'. :(

Buzz Lightyear
December 19th, 2006, 12:14 PM
i know i was just thinking that some people may be after just a small taste of the episode not neccessarily the whole thing...i don't mind i was happy to read it, but others might not want a complete summary

As far as I can recall, the episode section ALWAYS has at least one full summary of each ep, though the level of detail may vary.

Those who want to remain spoiler free should avoid episode threads altogether. I'm not sure what constitutes a "small taste" since other posts in this section have mentioned far more specific details than I have.

Since I've recounted plot points more or less in the order the episode was laid out, perhaps "small taste" would be just reading the first paragraph and no more.

caty
December 19th, 2006, 12:23 PM
I liked this ep... It was something entirely different, something I haven't seen before...

Loved Shep-McKay and Lorne-Zelenka banter/fight..
Loved angry silent Shep
Loved the leader of Shep's country, he was like I'd imagine a character being 'created' by Shep, but what's with the British accent? Does Shep like British accents? :D
Loved Weir and her telling her boys off :)

The lack of Beckett was sad though... There's just something missing without him :(

FallenAngelII
December 19th, 2006, 12:26 PM
As far as I can recall, the episode section ALWAYS has at least one full summary of each ep, though the level of detail may vary.

Those who want to remain spoiler free should avoid episode threads altogether. I'm not sure what constitutes a "small taste" since other posts in this section have mentioned far more specific details than I have.

Since I've recounted plot points more or less in the order the episode was laid out, perhaps "small taste" would be just reading the first paragraph and no more.
To elaborate more:
It's written in the rules that as long as you're not spoiling future episodes, you don't have to (and really, you shouldn't) use spoiler-tags when posting in episode threads!

It defeats the purpose of the threads when you have to spoilertag everything about the episode! {Mod Snip}

And what kind of a person goes into an episode thread before seeing the episode?! I avoid the episode threads 'til I've seen the episodes.

IMO, only {Mod Snip} would wander into an episode thread and not expect to get spoiled. And only an {Mod Snip} would get upset if he did get spoiled.

Teddybear
December 19th, 2006, 12:33 PM
I was bored during this episode, I found the McKay and Sheppard banter excessive , not as funny and subtle as we were used to see in S1 or S2 , it was too much and I found that their characters were presented like two immature kids playing games , specially when facing Weir who was given the bad role of the Teacher reprimanding them. It's not serious for the Leaders of Atlantis.
No really , I have a feeling of frustration with this episode .

Except Echoes , I think that the second half episodes of the season are at a lower level than the first half, but it's only my humble opinion and the season is not finished yet.

PG15
December 19th, 2006, 12:46 PM
Actually, I haven't seen the ep yet. However, I do want to see how the episode is being received, so I just glance at the first few lines to see if it's a "terrible episode" or "great episode!" and just skip the rest. :D

bluealien
December 19th, 2006, 12:47 PM
I was bored during this episode, I found the McKay and Sheppard banter excessive , not as funny and subtle as we were used to see in S1 or S2 , it was too much and I found that their characters were presented like two immature kids playing games , specially when facing Weir who was given the bad role of the Teacher reprimanding them. It's not serious for the Leaders of Atlantis.
No really , I have a feeling of frustration with this episode .

Except Echoes , I think that the second half episodes of the season are at a lower level than the first half, but it's only my humble opinion and the season is not finished yet.

You pretty much some up my feelings on this ep though I wouldn't go as far as saying it bored me - but it frustrated me. I did think that the bickering was over the top considering the seriousness of the situation. They almost caused a war. Echoes to me had the perfect balance of McShep banter but it did seem excessive here. Overall the guys came across as too immature for my liking with Weir like their teacher or mother figure repimanding them.

Some lovely moments but I would prefer to see our guys portrayed in a more serious manner especially Shep because for me this is where he excells.

caty
December 19th, 2006, 12:47 PM
{Mod Snip}
IMO John and Rodney were equally to blame for ther whole disaster. Rondey cheated and Shep reacted.

Oh, and Rodney seems to have been the "slut" in this ep :lol:

freyr's mother
December 19th, 2006, 12:50 PM
Anybody got caps?

Merlin7
December 19th, 2006, 01:01 PM
Does anyone else feel that the entire war was most John's fault? Rodney was giving his people technology, yes, but John immediately interpreted that as them planning to one day overthrow his people.

Then came the treaty negotiations. Sure, Rodney's demands were high-strung but John retaliated by the immature gesture of sending him things he knew Rodney was deadly allergic to.

And then whenever they talked about it in front of Baten, John kept sneering about how Rodney "cheated" and blah blah, showing off hostility, which Baten no doubt picked up.

And how stupid don't you have to be to realize that that typing and those beeps you just heard was Baten inputting commands into the console?!

Sure, Rodney was partly to blame. The thing with the coal was a low blow, but what the heck was John doing with it, anyway? Her was just letting it sit there.

Sure, Rodney did things that set things in motion. But every single time, it was John's reactions that triggered the inevitable war.

Had John not been as immature and war-hawky, they would still have had peace, only with a botched trade treaty.


Firstly, they thought it was a harmless game but when the truth came out, they were both to blame in general,but it was unintentional. I totally TOTALLY blame more on Rodney overall. He cheated. Cheated. Cheated. And everything John did was in response to what Rodney did.

And JOhn fixed it in the end.

Oh...did I mention that Rodney Cheated? Cause. Yeah. He did. Completely.

That aside. It was meant to be a game. And in those kind of games, you go for the annihilation in a warlike fashion.

Did I mention John fixed it in the end. And kicked Rodney's butt in Chess? Smart dude.

Willow'sCat
December 19th, 2006, 01:11 PM
You're talking about his computer game strategy here, not his attitute to the people while he was there, yes? Yeah, and I was meaning it in the sense that Sheppard knows McKay and already thought he was cheating, that to me means you try and out smart him not play into his hands by forcing him into what amounts to MAD... :cool: I would also liked to add it was late when I posted and I didn't have time to call McKay on his bad strategy (jeez fandom is rough) I agree giving people tech that they couldn't possibly understand the ramifications of using is not much of a strategy. No wonder McKay was cheating. :P


I don't know how you're playing your computer strategy gamesI haven't been, RL has enough conflict for me. :cool:

I think that was one place this ep fell down; if you don't like gaming or more importantly ('cause I do like gaming) if you don't like WAR GAMES/STRATEGY GAMES or are not a 15 year old boy :P this is not all that an engaging eppy, I found the small interactions with Ronon/McKay and Sheppard/Teyla, the moments with Weir and McKay/Sheppard and of course the last moment with McKay/Sheppard more interesting, thank goodness this is season 3 not 2 as in season 2 we wouldn't have had that interaction at all IMHO.

All the rest was any ep of Stargate, seen before or seen on Star Trek, with a small twist. I think if they had of made someone go nuts and kill hundreds of villagers (but fandom wouldn't like that) then it may have been more interesting in an ethical sense, but here even the ethics are cloudy as neither men knew the GAME was real, they have a get out of gaol *correct spelling* free card. Even the hapless villages can not be blamed. Really the only ones coming out of this badly are The Ancients, they are so fraked up if this was acceptable use of science to them.

I mean it is one thing to have volunteers enter this world but to have people who are oblivious, it is wholly unethical, I don't care who's ethics we are talking about. :cool: How the hell did these people ever reach ascension? :confused:

Alipeeps
December 19th, 2006, 01:24 PM
I'm gonna watch it in about an hour's time, seriously can't wait. But what about episode 14 "Sunday"? Will they just put that on another day?


Best guess at the moment, based on various rumours, is that The Ark is next, followed by Sunday.

Sunday is not and was never intended to be episode 14. GW listings are based off of production order, not airing order. Their list will be updated once US airing schedule is confirmed. Sunday was filmed out of order to give the crew extra time to build sets for the filming of The Ark. This is common practice in the industry. The Ark should be next and then either Submersion or Sunday (no definite news on that front yet).


Does anyone else feel that the entire war was most John's fault?

[snip]

Short answer? No.

They were playing a GAME - when I play City of Villains I rob banks and kidnap people and beat the crap out of/kill all manner of people/creatures (and all whist wearing high heels and a cowboy hat, thank you very much!) - needless to say, i do not do any of the above in real life and would be aghast to find that my actions in a computer game had real life consequences.


Most of the military build up and increasing hostilities began long before they found out that it wasnt a game. While John wanted to beat Rodney he thought that if things went bad then it was just a game and wouldnt matter very much. You cant really blame him.

Agreed.


Yes, but had it been, oh, say, Zelenka, he wouldn't have increased the size of his army. And he wouldn't constantly be showing hostility towards Rodney's "cheating" when discussing delicate matters such as why to not go to war!

Uhh... sorry? You're saying Zelenka and McKay wouldn't have been going all out to beat each other in the game and that Zelenka wouldn't accuse Rodney of cheating and that they wouldn't argue with each other? At inappropriate times? Seriously?!

Pretty much all of what you are referring to as John's war-mongering happened within the context of the game - when they thought it was just a game. In that context, responding to McKay's request to trade by sending his country lemons was a JOKE, a wind-up, something designed to tease and irritate Rodney - because that's the kind of friendship Sheppard and McKay have.



I don't understand why people can stand Rodney pointing out how stupid some people can be but people get upset as a collective when I call a group of people stupid (even when they don't belong to that one group, as if I was offending humanity for some reason).


Well, gosh... maybe it's got something to do with those pesky "respect other forum users" rules and stuff like that....

Overall impression of this episode is that I liked it. Not an outstanding or particularly memorable episode but certainly enjoyable and with some really good character moments (gosh, we're getting a lot of those in Season 3 and I love it so!) and not just for the leads - for example, Lorne and Zelenka were great in this ep.

I agree that the McShop banter did feel perhaps a little bit OTT here and there - much as part of me enjoyed seeing Weir put her foot down and "the boys" being in oh so much trouble with her, there were aspects to their behaviour that were frankly immature and could be seen to undermine their positions as responsible adults and heads of their respective departments. But it's a minor niggle and I can live with it. I did enjoy much of the banter and also Ronon and Teyla's bemusement at not only the oddness of Earth culture but also the oddness - and combative nature - of Sheppard and McKay's friendship.

Taking this ep on face value, I liked it again more for the character moments than anything else... and those were good enough for me to be quite happy with the ep.

Adored the ending and getting to see Brainy!Shep once again - and an interesting side note that I recalled from the episode Intruder that makes the chess scene all the more interesting:

SHEPPARD: Well, I hope you're good at chess.

McKAY: I don't get to play much -- it's tough finding challenging opponents.

leelakin
December 19th, 2006, 01:50 PM
I just saw the episode and haven't read the other reviews yet, so I'll just post my first impression:

I thought the episode was a-okay in total, though not as good as The Tao of Rodney or Echoes. The beginning was funny and I thought the idea of having a game become reality was awesome, though I thought that they could've made more out of it.
John and Rodney seemed to like little boys most of the time. I thought it was funny how much the leaders of their civilizations resembled them during their negotiations with Elizabeth.
The resolution of it all was kinda weird, I was all "Wait... what?" I mean, how did the Daedalus do that? I didn't quite get it. I thought that the game gave instructions to the villagers in form of an "oracle" through the satellite thing. But how could the Daedalus 'simulate' a war then? In reality? Huh? Maybe I missed something there.
Anyway, the resolution seemed too easy and 'far out' for me, and it looks like they didn't REALLY learn from it.

All in all, okay. I don't think I'd rewatch it, though.
Also not cool: NO CARSON. ):

Edit: Forgot to mention: Ronon seemed oddly... reasonable in this ep. *lol* I love me some reasonable Ronon!

gopher65
December 19th, 2006, 01:59 PM
I dunno. I think what the ancients did was perfectly justified. As far as they were concerned, un-evolved humans were simply dumb animals. I find experimentation on animals to be fine, as long as it isn't overly torturous.

*shrugs*

I'm fine with playing around with Petri dishes too. In the end, if you are vastly intellectually superior to another animal, you will eventually screw around with it. Which is why I think it would be realllly bad for us to meet an alien civilization:P. Even if they were (on the whole) relatively benevolent, like the ancients or the Asgard, I can totally see them screwing with us just to see what we'd do. Just like we screw with rats to see what they'll do.

I mean, if we found some primitive civilization of things that looked rather like kittens, and they were on the verge of starving to death, I think we might well go in and fix their problems. And then we’d fix something else. And then we’d go “hmmmmm. I wonder what will happen if we modify their education system”. And then we’d change something else. And then something else. And then we’d be doing exactly what the ancients were doing in this episode.

Ok, that was long and rambling :)

sueKay
December 19th, 2006, 02:01 PM
I found this episode a total bore

DivineLight
December 19th, 2006, 02:02 PM
Am I the only one that sees Rodney becoming a liability? His arrogance has destroyed a solar system, almost destroyed a parallel world, killed Zelenka (although he healed him I know) and most recently, started a war between two villages that used to be friendly. He is smart there is no denying that. He is also in part responsible for the team having survived as long as they have at Atlantis. But many times he aimlessly takes the rest of his team into harms way purely on account of arrogance. He rarely listens to anyone unless he is faced with death or backed into a corner. In fact he deosn't listen to himself (think grace under rpessure). How about back in season whatever of SG1 when he tried to stop Anubis' energy device that was heating up the Stargate by shooting an EM pulse despite warnings from the scientists around him and effectively cut their time to death in half.

I'm not saying Mckay should be replaced. I'm not suggesting anything I'm just ranting. If I was there I would have been court marshalled by now for throwing Mckay over a balcony during one of his "I'm smarter than you get out of my way" rants. The character honestly, is an immature baby, I'm surprised he hasn't wet himself yet. Cheers

Willow'sCat
December 19th, 2006, 02:27 PM
Am I the only one that sees Rodney becoming a liability? He is no more a liability then the rest of them and who was it that woke up the MAIN big bad in the PG? Hmmm... not McKay that is for sure. ;) And the Solar system *Trinity spoilers* I thought had no humans living in it so he didn't kill anyone, it wasn't a mass slaughter of innocents and last week *Tao of Rodney spoilers* it was a pure accident *maybe lead by his ego* that the tech went crazy on him, he can't be held liable for something he had little control over, you could actually argue that if it was anyone other then McKay with his already brilliant mind that anyone else would have made a bigger hash of things, McKay handle it fairly well reallyand he has also saved their butts on numerous occasions including Sheppard's and all this with very little training in the area of combat or military expertise *well we never see any training* so I think he is doing pretty well in the circumstances. ;) He is a scientist not a gun totting military grunt. :p It is really up to Weir and Sheppard to keep him in line, if he goes off the rails it is their fault as much as it is McKay's *IMHO*

But what any of this has to do with the current episode I don't' know, it is clear that both McKay/Sheppard were out of their depths, and didn't really help the situation in the long run. Neither performed all that well here.:cool:

Arlessiar
December 19th, 2006, 02:41 PM
Oh my, how am I supposed to play my strategic computer games from now on? The Settlers, Age of Empires, Civilization...who knows how many civilizations I destroyed already? :D

I so want a computer game to be real! I play Everquest II, and I'd really love it to walk through that world! :)

Anyway, what I liked about the episode:

- I loved the trade thing with the crates of citrus fruits! Silly and shallow but funny nonetheless - McShep banter. *g*

- And Rodney's beloved blue jello is featured again!

- Rodney's oh so wise words when he is in fact just quoting Kennedy and Einstein!

- Did you see how disgusted Rodney looked when John ate that orange? And Rodney ate salad. Very healthy. What did Teyla eat, was that oatmeal?

- Blond Sam-like women, of course, you don't have to explain a single thing, Dr. McKay... :D
Like someone else who has posted about that there already, I was also wondering why the real woman looked like the woman Rodney created on the screen, even though it became clear that she was born like everyone else, and not 'created' from one day to the other by the oracle. Yes, clothes or hairstyle, these things can be changed, but as you are very often able to change the facial features or the body of your characters in a strategic game/RPG, I thought that this applied to this game too.

- Katie Brown? Dinner? So they still see each other after over one year? Or was Rodey just exaggerating the fact that they maybe just ate dinner together in the mess hall?

- All these paintings everywhere!!! Rodney in all his glory! LMAO! I wonder who made this paintings and if DH had to pose for them.

- It was funny to see Rodney in the beige uniform and the blue shirt again in the flashback. Wasn't he allergic to this shirt, or was that the zipper shirt? I actually forgot.

- Sheppard and McKay - the two little boys! Didn't they look like naughty five year olds when Weir berated them?
I loved that they played this computer game together in their free time, and that they played chess later in the mess hall. Seems Rodney has found a worthy opponent (after what he said in "Intruder")

- tomato!!! :D

- I loved Joe Flanigan's facial expressions in this ep, they were really good - and funny!

This ep also featured someone here from GW who had walk-on role in this episode. Very funny to see her in the ep. :)

All in all an average ep, not bad but also no highlight.

Bye, A.

xfkirsten
December 19th, 2006, 03:01 PM
A decent episode with some good banter (love the Zelenka/Lorne bit!), but nothing too memorable for me.

I'm actually more annoyed at my sudden urge to play Age of Empires (for which the disc is unfortunately at my house, which is 45 degrees F inside and completely without power :p)...

luvmac
December 19th, 2006, 03:02 PM
Am I the only one that sees Rodney becoming a liability? His arrogance has destroyed a solar system, almost destroyed a parallel world, killed Zelenka (although he healed him I know) and most recently, started a war between two villages that used to be friendly. He is smart there is no denying that.


I don't know if Rodney's arrogance was a liability or not in this episode because I haven't seen it yet but his arrogance did not kill Zelenka.

Spoilers for Tao of Rodney:


The modifications he was making in the control chair was benefiting the entire city. He was also almost finished with those modifications when Weir and Sheppard came in and distracted him with their news that he was going to die. If they had waited just another minute or two the system would have been fixed. He didn't stop because he wanted to gloat or anything about what he was doing but because he had just been given some devastating news.


I'll have to wait until later when I can see this episode to decide what role if any McKay's arrogance plays in The Game.

sueKay
December 19th, 2006, 03:06 PM
The best bit in this episode...

Lorne and Zelenka...definitely :D

Franklyn Blaze
December 19th, 2006, 03:30 PM
The best bit in this episode...

Lorne and Zelenka...definitely :D

Nice concept for an episode, wonder which of the writers saw someone playing age of empires and said "Hmm."

The ep was high on extras but low on special effects. Every time I saw some cheesy gfx shot on the planet I recoiled, especially at the end. The far away atlantis shots were horrible! The space scenes were fine though.

TameFarrar
December 19th, 2006, 03:42 PM
Just to be clear for some here :D

In the Episode Threads you DO NOT have to use spoiler tags when discussing the Episode that the thread is opened for. If it is for any other episode and you feel a need to refer to it then yes a spoiler tag is required.

Secondly, name calling and disrespecting other members personally OR in general by calling them names is not acceptable and will not be allowed. So let's refrain from that tactic from now on.

Thank You
TameFarrar
GateWorld Moderator

mgehman
December 19th, 2006, 03:44 PM
I've said it before and I'll say it again, any episode with Laura Harris in it is a great episode. As Rodney said in Moebius..."you I would listen to if you read the phonebook".:)

jenks
December 19th, 2006, 04:03 PM
I found this episode a total bore

Same here.

CalmStorm
December 19th, 2006, 04:11 PM
Overall, I really liked this episode. All (but of course a notable abscence of PM) had some pretty good screen time. Have to say that I loved Shep's facial expressions this episode. Loved Weir in this episode and the way she handled the situation. Loved that Lorne and Zelenka got carried away with the "game".

I wonder if the ancients used these experiments as their reason for non-interfernce once they reached their evolved ascended state. As was shown with Zelenka and Lorne, two characters who seem to have very good hearts and started out with the best of intentions, ended up bickering over the cultures they were controlling and were heading down a dangerous path.

emotionallydisturbed
December 19th, 2006, 04:27 PM
I just watched this episode, and I have one question to the audience. How does anyone possibly slash McKay and Sheppard?!! No, seriously, these two are the pure definition of brotherly love. Annoying, competitive brothers. I had flashbacks to my own childhood the entire time, to my own two brothers.

jenks
December 19th, 2006, 04:33 PM
Those bombs they made must have been HUGE, didn't they say they could destroy an entire village?! As soon as I heard that I thought 'wtf? that's retarded...'

Agent_Dark
December 19th, 2006, 04:44 PM
Does anyone else feel that the entire war was most John's fault? Rodney was giving his people technology, yes, but John immediately interpreted that as them planning to one day overthrow his people.

....

Had John not been as immature and war-hawky, they would still have had peace, only with a botched trade treaty.

No way. Anyone who plays RTS would know never to let you opponents turtle while they are teching up, otherwise they'll just come at you with superweapons and the most powerful units. If someone's going to turtle, you rush them asap and they'll have nothing to defend with since they're spending all their resources on teching.

Agent_Dark
December 19th, 2006, 04:46 PM
- And Rodney's beloved blue jello is featured again!
Isn't blue jello Sam Carter's favourite? I recall Rodney going for the red jello in 48 Hours. But I thought Nola eating the blue jello was fitting, considering how she was loosely based on Carter.

Ltcolshepjumper
December 19th, 2006, 04:51 PM
Mckay liked blue jello. Said so in 'Michael' I think.

Franklyn Blaze
December 19th, 2006, 04:54 PM
Anyone notice the girl's teeth turn blue after she had eaten it? :)

prion
December 19th, 2006, 05:07 PM
Does anyone else feel that the entire war was most John's fault? Rodney was giving his people technology, yes, but John immediately interpreted that as them planning to one day overthrow his people.

Nah, it was both their faults, and, as someone pointed out, what you do in games is different than in real life. Both were pretty much appalled that they were playing with real people, but when it was just a game - heck, who hasn't blown up a battleship or obliterated cities full of people in video games? And you're talkling guys - men - and generally they can be immature (sorry, I base this on a lot of observation - I mean, watch 'em with football, etc.). ;) ;)

And John is always going to play a game as a military strategist, while Rodney will always favor science.

Now, the folks who needed to be called on the carpet were Zelenka and Lorne, whom I'd like to think Weir assigned some nasty scutt work to as punishment for what they did.

Overall, I had fun with this episode. Lots of snark, Weir actually getting something to do, the facial expressions.

Yeah, I can see Weir's punishment for the boys - a few session with Heightmeyer to iron out their differences, and banishment from any kind of videogames for a few months! :)

prion
December 19th, 2006, 05:08 PM
Mckay liked blue jello. Said so in 'Michael' I think.

McKay likes it because Sam likes it ;) They've really got a blue jello fetish going on on the gate shows ;)

Luz
December 19th, 2006, 05:46 PM
No way. Anyone who plays RTS would know never to let you opponents turtle while they are teching up, otherwise they'll just come at you with superweapons and the most powerful units. If someone's going to turtle, you rush them asap and they'll have nothing to defend with since they're spending all their resources on teching.

What is RTS?.

Liked the episode, it was quite entertaining, and there was Lorne and Zinka (YAY! :P). I must admit I felt a pang of sadness when I saw Laura Harris, it reminded me of how much I still miss DLM. :(

Ltcolshepjumper
December 19th, 2006, 05:53 PM
Real-Time Strategy. Games like Star Wars:Empire at War, LOTR: the Battle for Middle Earth, etc.

PG15
December 19th, 2006, 06:16 PM
Well, if this doesn't convince people why the Ascendeds have rules, nothing else will!

Very solid episode, nothing phenominal, but entertaining nonetheless. There were, of course, great banter between Shep and Rodney, as well as tiny touches that I'll probably forget by the time I get to the paragraph I wanted to use to describe them.

So, the points:

Let me get the "small bits" over with soon: first, it's obvious that Geldar's flag is just the Canadian flag with Rodney's head in place of the maple leaf; loved that little touch. Also, A LOT of the women of Geldar have short, blond hair for obvious reasons, not to mention that Nola liked Blue Jello. :D There was also the typical village music played when the team first arrived, and citrus was toxic. And finally, Katie Brown was mentioned again! Phew, that's a lot; but I'm sure I'm missing something.

Also, maybe it's just me, but I think Shep had something to do with "Helona", since Helo, as I've learned, is short for Helocopter, which is important to Shep for obvious reasons. ;) Of course, this relies on whether I've spelled the name right.

Wait a sec, just remember something else. During one of the scenes, McKay said "cartergraphic" instead of "cartegraphic". Subliminal much Rodney? ;)

Now we move onto the banter. Loved the "cheating" bits...hell, I loved them all. With every episode I can see TPTB setting up a sort of "brother" relationship between the two...that, or the odd couple. Loved it!

And a big thumbs up for Radek and Evan(?) Lorne's little quibble over the game. Like I said at the beginning, this episode really teaches you what happens if you don't control the power that you have. It just makes me agree with the Ancients even more on their non-interference rules.

And how can I end this without talking about the actual plot? I don't play those games (well, ok, I play Star Trek Armada, but it's in space), but I do know a friend who plays it, or used to play it almost religiously, and it's just freaking hilarious seeing it showcased on the show. I mean, what kind of strategic gamer don't want something like this to happen? Knowing that the time spent wasted over the game is actually leading to something real?

Anyway, the episode actually got better as I'm thinking about it, so I'll give it...

8.5/10

helio9
December 19th, 2006, 06:25 PM
This is like the ultimate RTS game. Supreme Commander on steroids.

Oka
December 19th, 2006, 06:50 PM
Boring episode. Total filler, felt kind of empty, not many good character moments and the story line was dumb.

Good:
- Blonde chick was cute
- Some amusing McKay-Sheperd banter

Bad:
- Not enough character interaction
- ugly sets
- Story line
- Cliche ending
- No cool CGI or location shots

I don't have much else to say for now. Another forgettable episode.

4/10

lord-anubis
December 19th, 2006, 08:35 PM
really liked this ep maybe it cuz i am gamer. the ep was like a rts game or civilization or the sims but played with real people. they very lucky that shep and john hadent made them attack eacher all ready that. would have been bad if they fought on the game alot and then found out they were playing with real people

NowIWillDestroyAbydos
December 19th, 2006, 08:52 PM
I just finished watching the episode. Pretty interesting, especially the scenes between Shep and Rodney. That chick (I forget her name at the moment) was pretty hot. And it was a pretty interesting ending as well.

Of the 15 episodes that have aired already (in the States and in Canada), The Game is in the middle, wasn't awesome and it didn't suck either. I give it a ** 1/2.

the old briar pipe
December 19th, 2006, 08:57 PM
I just watched this episode, and I have one question to the audience. How does anyone possibly slash McKay and Sheppard?!! No, seriously, these two are the pure definition of brotherly love. Annoying, competitive brothers. I had flashbacks to my own childhood the entire time, to my own two brothers.

I'm assuming your question is rhetorical.... :D

I, too, have brothers. McKay and Sheppard ain't them.

travis
December 19th, 2006, 09:37 PM
great ep. Though not an action pack or special effect it was still very enjoyable.
Love the Zaleka and Lorne being busted by Weir LMAO. Thought the female leader of the village was great.

I'm suprise they did'nt wage war the first 1/2 hour into the game LOL I know if that was me I would have. Being a game lover I just love blowing things up and starting wars:D

Amalthia
December 19th, 2006, 10:05 PM
I really loved this episode. I laughed out loud more than once, I loved that the leader of Geldar didn't just bend over backwards for Rodney and she stood up for her beliefs. It's a nice change, even though she was leading her people to war.

Basically, lots of good funny moments, I absolutely adored Zelenka and Lorne's scenes together.

lord-anubis
December 19th, 2006, 10:11 PM
I'm suprise they did'nt wage war the first 1/2 hour into the game LOL I know if that was me I would have. Being a game lover I just love blowing things up and starting wars


lol me to if it was me playing im sure i would have destory the other town with in a week

travis
December 19th, 2006, 10:12 PM
Did you guy's notice that in that Lorne and Zalenka scene, that Lorne looked like he was going to piss himself or may be it's just me.

Mitchell82
December 19th, 2006, 10:44 PM
Good episode. I really enjoyed it much more than I thought I would. Did anyone else catch the JFK limerik? "Ask not what Gilder can do for you, ask what you can do for Gilder." JFK's version "Ask not what your country can do for you, ask what you can do for your country." I loved that part.

jerkface
December 19th, 2006, 11:03 PM
I think someone said it above, but overall I'd also say:

Ugh.

This episode was a large helping of mediocre. Sheppard and McKay seemed insanely flippant until the very close, when their countries were on the brink of destroying each other—was this supposed to be funny?

Their banter might have been cute (or at least less annoying) if everything else in the episode hadn't been emphasizing the seriousness of Geldar and Hellona's conflict. As it was, it felt tacked on in an effort to keep the tone light.

This tone problem marred the otherwise good interactions among Weir, Zelenka, and Lorne. When Dr. Z first acknowledges the temptations of the game to Weir, it was a good moment; he seemed honestly enthralled in an almost creepy way, which was a tone that might have worked with other serious elements in the episode.

But then when he and Lorne do get caught up in the game...they argue over baskets? Again, only funny if removed from the threats of war/mass death going on planetside.

Higginson was good throughout though, and I do give credits to the writers for giving her more responsible, yet still human reactions here. She almost rescued the basket scene for me with her "what the hell" comment.

And Teyla was in this where? I expect (if with regret) the lack of Beckett, but she had hardly anything to do (unusual, considering she's typically the voice of morality when she does have lines).

Ronon did have a nice line (and it was well delivered) about the consequences of a real war at the conclusion. It was small relief from the abrupt return to gravity that the plot's resolution required, however.

It was hard to take Sheppard's final moralizations about war seriously after he'd spent the episode poking at McKay for cheating. (Which is a shame, as I think they've established Sheppard could otherwise have spoken effectively about his experiences in wartime.)

silence
December 20th, 2006, 12:13 AM
Good episode. I really enjoyed it much more than I thought I would. Did anyone else catch the JFK limerik? "Ask not what Gilder can do for you, ask what you can do for Gilder." JFK's version "Ask not what your country can do for you, ask what you can do for your country." I loved that part.

yap... i was even thinking to put it in my sig.. but i wasn't sure if it's allowed (might be considered as spoiler)...

Rizen
December 20th, 2006, 01:05 AM
Something thats been nagging at me...

Are the planets under observation in some sort of time-dilation field? It seems to me that a social experiment that occurs in realtime would take, well, a really long time. Also, at that pace it really wouldn't make that interesting of a game.

Sure, you have an entire country to manage, but after making a few general orders in that couple of hours you 'play', then what? Ok, the pesants are building a well, several days later it'll be done, in the meantime....

Also it's nice seeing Laura Harris (Dead Like Me) on TV again.

I wonder what sort of social experiments the ancients were conducting. Trying to make communism work? Fuedal society set in modern times? What happens if humans had Insect-hive mentality?

-Alex

sgeureka
December 20th, 2006, 01:23 AM
Also, maybe it's just me, but I think Shep had something to do with "Helona", since Helo, as I've learned, is short for Helocopter, which is important to Shep for obvious reasons. ;) Of course, this relies on whether I've spelled the name right.1. Sheppard said he just kept the name that the country already had.

2. It's spelled "Hallona" (see here (http://www.gateworld.net/atlantis/s3/316.shtml) and here (http://forum.gateworld.net/showpost.php?p=6114982&postcount=238), if production can be trusted)

silence
December 20th, 2006, 01:43 AM
Heh... noone has mentioned something much more interesting.
Wraith... how come they didn't destroy Ancient satellites when they came?
Or those consoles in villages?

Kinda seems strange that Wraith will come to planet and leave Ancient tech untouched...

MechaThor
December 20th, 2006, 02:19 AM
I liked the epsiode on the whole. I have no problem with the comic banter overthe serious of war since they where shown in both lights. Zelenka and Lorne figthing over baskets was the highlight and a good message of how we can't handle that power without thinking of it as just a game.

Hightlight of the episode was me was the Bikes in Mckays town. Imagine on of them coming throught the stargate!


Heh... noone has mentioned something much more interesting.
Wraith... how come they didn't destroy Ancient satellites when they came?
Or those consoles in villages?

Kinda seems strange that Wraith will come to planet and leave Ancient tech untouched...

Yes i noticed that aswell. I knew a gd ep had to be let down by 1 little plothole.

But overall a nice comic/serious ep with an intresting story.

FallenAngelII
December 20th, 2006, 02:20 AM
Firstly, they thought it was a harmless game but when the truth came out, they were both to blame in general,but it was unintentional. I totally TOTALLY blame more on Rodney overall. He cheated. Cheated. Cheated. And everything John did was in response to what Rodney did.

And JOhn fixed it in the end.

Oh...did I mention that Rodney Cheated? Cause. Yeah. He did. Completely.

That aside. It was meant to be a game. And in those kind of games, you go for the annihilation in a warlike fashion.

Did I mention John fixed it in the end. And kicked Rodney's butt in Chess? Smart dude.
Rodney cheated. And? It was John who made the first move that lead to war. Rodney gave his people scientific advancement because he's a scientist. John immediately responded by doubling the size of his army.

FallenAngelII
December 20th, 2006, 02:23 AM
I just watched this episode, and I have one question to the audience. How does anyone possibly slash McKay and Sheppard?!! No, seriously, these two are the pure definition of brotherly love. Annoying, competitive brothers. I had flashbacks to my own childhood the entire time, to my own two brothers.
Po-taa-to, Po-ta-to.

A lot of people would call that an old couple's arguement.


No way. Anyone who plays RTS would know never to let you opponents turtle while they are teching up, otherwise they'll just come at you with superweapons and the most powerful units. If someone's going to turtle, you rush them asap and they'll have nothing to defend with since they're spending all their resources on teching.
Yes, but this wasn't an RTS. Rodney never thought of the game as something you win. He just wanted to better the lives of his people.


Anyone notice the girl's teeth turn blue after she had eaten it? :)
Yes. It was very prominent.


Nah, it was both their faults, and, as someone pointed out, what you do in games is different than in real life. Both were pretty much appalled that they were playing with real people, but when it was just a game - heck, who hasn't blown up a battleship or obliterated cities full of people in video games? And you're talkling guys - men - and generally they can be immature (sorry, I base this on a lot of observation - I mean, watch 'em with football, etc.). ;) ;)
Why do people snip my original post to make it look like I'm blaming it entirely on John (even though what they quote says "mostly his fault", not "all his fault"?

John is a soldier and responds like one. And when talking to Baten, he kept showing animosity and making inappropriate comments about "cheating".

And John never really took it seriously 'til war broke out. When Baten first talked about war, John kept saying "cheating" and talking badly about Rodney. Then when Baten said he'd wage war because that's what John would do, John just kept quiet and when talking to the others, he continued to bicker with Rodney and made it sound like something less-than-awful (he didn't say "War! ZOMG! We have to stop it now!". He'd heard it from Baten's mouth how determined the guy is).


Well, if this doesn't convince people why the Ascendeds have rules, nothing else will!
I doubt the Ancients ever told their villagers to go to war over trade treaties. This was never a "game" to be won. It was simply a game about fostering your people to help them prosper.


Something thats been nagging at me...

Are the planets under observation in some sort of time-dilation field? It seems to me that a social experiment that occurs in realtime would take, well, a really long time. Also, at that pace it really wouldn't make that interesting of a game.
The Ancients had tons of time. It's said in the episode that they stopped communicating with them thousands of years ago. So unless the time dilation fields multiplies time with a maximum of 5 to 10, no.

female Wraith
December 20th, 2006, 02:29 AM
The Game was very good episode. Even better than Tao of McKay! I watched it with interest and I wasn't bored at all.
All these portraits of Rodney:)))

silence
December 20th, 2006, 02:45 AM
Yes i noticed that aswell. I knew a gd ep had to be let down by 1 little plothole.

But overall a nice comic/serious ep with an intresting story.

Well, i can live with it. I really liked it and i rewatched it. There are some really great moments... i loved the look on Weir's face after first negotiations broke...
Whole idea to make citrus an insult, cause McKay explained them it was toxic..

I'll rather have some plothole here and there and enjoy the show then have dull and boring eps. ;)
This ep is (IMO) is getting worse reaction then it should cause it aired after "Tao" which was really fantastic.. and two comic eps with Rodney in a row mean that one will overshadow the other....

FallenAngelII
December 20th, 2006, 03:07 AM
Well, i can live with it. I really liked it and i rewatched it. There are some really great moments... i loved the look on Weir's face after first negotiations broke...
Whole idea to make citrus an insult, cause McKay explained them it was toxic..

I'll rather have some plothole here and there and enjoy the show then have dull and boring eps. ;)
This ep is (IMO) is getting worse reaction then it should cause it aired after "Tao" which was really fantastic.. and two comic eps with Rodney in a row mean that one will overshadow the other....
Since when is "Tao" comic? It had some comedy, but overall, not so much of a comic episode.

macktheknife
December 20th, 2006, 04:03 AM
I don't know how you're playing your computer strategy games, but my acknowledgement of recent events do not change my game strategies. I'm of a rather pacifist nature, but in Civilization II/III (which is what The Game was most similar to) I'm the make scientific progress progress progress kind, then invent superior weapons and sweep over all other civilizations who are still protecting themselves with medieval technology. Evil, but that's how I know I'll win. The rest doesn't matter.

I just tech to nukes and ruin the planet. It's how I roll.

Shep obviously went for a pop boom mixed with a mil-unit rush, Rodney went Tech Rush and anti-citrus (That was funny as, I was wondering why Citrus would be an insult then it twigged :D )

As for how he manipulated their hairstyles, I'd assume whoever was in touch with the oracle got the order, and told everyone and hairdressers and whatnot.

I thought Zalenka had some nice acting whilst he was interacting with and about the game. You could get lost in thousands (millions?) of real planets.

Would have been cool if weir got hooked or something, and we saw her planet (or what she did).

BJX
December 20th, 2006, 04:05 AM
Yeah, I quite liked this one. Nothing special at all although I think it could've been. SG-1's "Ethon" was the perfect example of how good an episode about two waring neighbour nations can be and this one never got to those heights. It had it's moments though. The central story and how it may have related to what we know of the ancient's rules was interesting. The banter between McKay and Sheppard was fantastic, as was Zelenka's and Lorne's. It was also nice to see Weir do the whole mediator thing but it never really became stellar in any way.

Overall an enjoyable and entertaining episode, though utterly forgettable. 7/10.

prion
December 20th, 2006, 04:09 AM
Good episode. I really enjoyed it much more than I thought I would. Did anyone else catch the JFK limerik? "Ask not what Gilder can do for you, ask what you can do for Gilder." JFK's version "Ask not what your country can do for you, ask what you can do for your country." I loved that part.

Oh yeah. Very funny ;) and it was Geldar (not Gilder), as at one point, Sheppard snarkily called it "Gelding.' Ha!

prion
December 20th, 2006, 04:14 AM
Why do people snip my original post to make it look like I'm blaming it entirely on John (even though what they quote says "mostly his fault", not "all his fault"?

Because people are responding to the one point in your post. People tend to get ticked off if you quote an entire post to answer just one part ;)

In retrospect, it's probably good it was Rodney and Shep playing the game. THe planet would have been nuked if Lorne and Zelenka had been 'playing' the game that long!

Hmm, wonder if they villages had a postal system if Rodney's visage was on their stamps too....

Agent_Dark
December 20th, 2006, 04:40 AM
Yes, but this wasn't an RTS. Rodney never thought of the game as something you win. He just wanted to better the lives of his people.

Since when has Rodney ever not been highly competitive? Of course he was trying to 'beat' Sheppard at the game. The 'bettering the lives of the people' was a justification to appease Weir.

Pitry
December 20th, 2006, 05:41 AM
Hmpf.

So, entertaining episode all in all, had a couple of entertaining moments between Rodney adn Sheppard.... *thinks* a bit silly tho.
Kinda pissed off with the coup out in the end. "Oh, it was a simoulation"... if they're already going the path of "hey! let's make a real sim city!" they should have had the guts to go end with it - having these two countries destroy each otehr in the process, the team beamed up in the nick of time (for once, that would have been a beaming up I don't mind) and the planet going kaboom. At last it would have given the story some sort of a point.

The |"train question" in teh ebginning of the episode, so bloody obvious, could have lived without.

So, we're back to Ronon and Teyloa doing nothing? A shame really, cos I felt they were starting to utilise them more recently. Still, I think Ronon and Rodney have built up quite an entertaining chemistry, I like seeing these two together. Actually, I think they work better than Sheppard and Ronon.

Entertainign McKay pictures everywhere :D

...that's it, really.
What do you mean, 3 weeks' break?! :D

FallenAngelII
December 20th, 2006, 05:47 AM
Since when has Rodney ever not been highly competitive? Of course he was trying to 'beat' Sheppard at the game. The 'bettering the lives of the people' was a justification to appease Weir.
While Rodney would surely want his people to "beat" Sheppard's when it comes to prosperity, he would never ever have attacked Sheppard's people.

He didn't give his people the instructions on how to build weapons. They did that on their own (he didn't know they were actual people). And he only strengthened his military (and even then it was tiny compared to Hallona's) after John had doubled his forces.

While Rodney is competitive and no doubt wanted to win over John, it wasn't by force. John, however, being the warhawk that he is, immediately assumed an attack was coming and planned for it, making his people think it was coming.

(On a side note, Nolah did foster ill-will towards Hallona and didn't hesitate to attack back herself, but Rodney never fed her instructions to go to war. And he did everything he could to stop the war instead of rambling about how bad of a person the other Oracle was.)

Linzi
December 20th, 2006, 06:01 AM
Since when has Rodney ever not been highly competitive? Of course he was trying to 'beat' Sheppard at the game. The 'bettering the lives of the people' was a justification to appease Weir.
Absolutely. They both wanted to win. I think both Sheppard and McKay wanted to prove to the other that their way was the best, and that the country that won the game was obviously the superior, thus so would be the winners ideas and actions. Surely the peeking they did over their consoles at each other, giving each other surreptitious and sneaky looks was a bit of a clue to that?
As to Rodney cheating. It had serious ramifications. Sheppard said it was cheating to give advanced technology to the Geldars. Whether they'd agreed that before they started the game or it was a rule laid down by the Ancients wasn't made clear. Or, for that matter, even if they had discussed any rules to the game. However, it gave the Geldan's an unfair advantage because they built advanced weapons which altered the balance of development of the two countries. So, both boys were at fault here. However, in their defences, they were playing a game. You play computer style games to win when you're playing against an opponent, so technically neither did anything wrong to start with. They thought they were playing for entertainment.

FallenAngelII
December 20th, 2006, 06:06 AM
Absolutely. They both wanted to win. I think both Sheppard and McKay wanted to prove to the other that their way was the best, and that the country that won the game was obviously the superior, thus so would be the winners ideas and actions. Surely the peeking they did over their consoles at each other, giving each other surreptitious and sneaky looks was a bit of a clue to that?
As to Rodney cheating. It had serious ramifications. Sheppard said it was cheating to give advanced technology to the Geldars. Whether they'd agreed that before they started the game or it was a rule laid down by the Ancients wasn't made clear. Or, for that matter, even if they had discussed any rules to the game. However, it gave the Geldan's an unfair advantage because they built advanced weapons which altered the balance of development of the two countries. So, both boys were at fault here. However, in their defences, they were playing a game. You play computer style games to win when you're playing against an opponent, so technically neither did anything wrong to start with. They thought they were playing for entertainment.
Rodney didn't give his people any offensive weapons technology. They figured it out by themselves. They didn't know it was a game, so he couldn't possibly have known they would make weapons themselves.

All Rodney did was give them a lot of nice machines to help their scientific development along. From what we heard about the episode, Rodney had no interest in involving the military 'til John doubled his army.

Callie
December 20th, 2006, 06:10 AM
I wonder if David Hewlett got to keep any of the portraits after the episode?

Rodney has definitely improved with time. A year ago he would have been full of himself, knowing that he was a god to an entire civilisation.

When Daedalus beams Rodney and Ronon up, it looks for a brief moment as if the two of them are cuddling each other!

Ltcolshepjumper
December 20th, 2006, 06:27 AM
McDex? eww..

Linzi
December 20th, 2006, 07:25 AM
Rodney didn't give his people any offensive weapons technology. They figured it out by themselves. They didn't know it was a game, so he couldn't possibly have known they would make weapons themselves.

All Rodney did was give them a lot of nice machines to help their scientific development along. From what we heard about the episode, Rodney had no interest in involving the military 'til John doubled his army.
Actually even Rodney admitted that he gave them the raw material ( in terms of information) to make bombs. If he hadn't have advanced them technologically in the first place they wouldn't have been able to apply that imformation to making bombs, or airships or bicycles...
Sheppard also said he was built his armies in response to McKay giving his country all the technology, and then McKay responded by having his country have a bigger army too. This is the whole point of the situation. Things can escalate pretty quickly and both sides were at fault. Though to them it was only a game.

Callie
December 20th, 2006, 07:47 AM
Transcript is up:

http://www.brundle.free-online.co.uk/Transcript_Index.html

prion
December 20th, 2006, 08:36 AM
I wonder if David Hewlett got to keep any of the portraits after the episode?

Rodney has definitely improved with time. A year ago he would have been full of himself, knowing that he was a god to an entire civilisation.

When Daedalus beams Rodney and Ronon up, it looks for a brief moment as if the two of them are cuddling each other!

Hard to tell on the paintings. I remember they'd done an oil painting of David Carradine for a Kung Fu: TLC episode. Afterwards, it just got stashed away in the studio, never to see the light o fday again until the show was cancelled. I managed to get my hands on it for a charity auction. Someone paid $2K for it! If Bridge/MGm was smart, they'd eBay one of 'em for charity (not at a convention but on eBay where everybody has a chance to snatch it). Bet they could pull in some serious money.

No, no no, no McDex!!! (argh!)

Well, Rodney still has that sort of god-like thing; he put his picture on the flag and they had painting everywhere (loved Shep's reaction "enough with the pictures!") ;)

Luz
December 20th, 2006, 08:41 AM
What if the ancients weren't doing some sort of sociological experiment, and were instead playing with the lives of those people?, it's just that the more we learn from them the less I like them.
And for a moment when watching the episode I wondered if they weren't giving the ancients too much credit?, maybe it was all a game to them, maybe they didn't care for those people from the villages at all.

Mitchell82
December 20th, 2006, 08:54 AM
I wonder if David Hewlett got to keep any of the portraits after the episode?

Rodney has definitely improved with time. A year ago he would have been full of himself, knowing that he was a god to an entire civilisation.

When Daedalus beams Rodney and Ronon up, it looks for a brief moment as if the two of them are cuddling each other!

LOL yeah I noticed that. I liked Rodney from the beginging of SGA but hated him in most of his guest spots on Sg-1. David did a great job in this epeisode. Excellent ep IMO.

prion
December 20th, 2006, 08:56 AM
What if the ancients weren't doing some sort of sociological experiment, and were instead playing with the lives of those people?, it's just that the more we learn from them the less I like them.
And for a moment when watching the episode I wondered if they weren't giving the ancients too much credit?, maybe it was all a game to them, maybe they didn't care for those people from the villages at all.

We can look at it that these were sociological studies, and that the peoples were observed but not touched (aka The Prime Directive), but, they all had those consoles/game boards, so obviously some kind of contact was made with at least some people.

What's that old phrase? The road to hell is paved with good intentions? sounds like the ancients (or at least some of them) were barrelling down that road.

psychofilly
December 20th, 2006, 09:24 AM
And for a moment when watching the episode I wondered if they weren't giving the ancients too much credit?, maybe it was all a game to them, maybe they didn't care for those people from the villages at all.

You know, I haven't seen the episode yet, but I've seen a lot of anti-ancient sentiment growing, both online and in the text of both of the shows. One thing that sorta bugs me, or at least makes me wonder... do we have a definitive date on when the Ori-Ancients split from Alterran-Ancient society?

We've been seeing that the ancients weren't exactly all that and a bag of chips, and that they definitely created some big FUBAR messes back in their day with some really sticky moral dilemas attached to them.

I just wonder if some of the most assholish aspects of the ancients that we've seen so far, like the Asurans and the [sp for TOR]ascension machine, weren't created by beings that later became the Ori. I wonder if the split happened before or after the ancients started ascending. If that's the case, there were some pretty evil minded ancients that would have existed right along side the more beneficient ancients, which would explain a lot.

FallenAngelII
December 20th, 2006, 09:58 AM
Actually even Rodney admitted that he gave them the raw material ( in terms of information) to make bombs. If he hadn't have advanced them technologically in the first place they wouldn't have been able to apply that imformation to making bombs, or airships or bicycles...
Sheppard also said he was built his armies in response to McKay giving his country all the technology, and then McKay responded by having his country have a bigger army too. This is the whole point of the situation. Things can escalate pretty quickly and both sides were at fault. Though to them it was only a game.
Rodney gave them a lot of technology. By combining thoes technologies, they were able to build a bomb. However, Rodney never told them how to build a bomb. To him, it was a game.

The point is that John was the one who started the war-mongerng. He immediately assumed Rodney would eventually attack him.

ToasterOnFire
December 20th, 2006, 10:10 AM
My, there has been a lot of filler in this second half of the season. No more OMG!Wraith! or OMG!Asurans arcs, and this concept felt like it came straight out of fanfic. :S

Good:

-The paintings of Rodney. :D

-A OC woman who was NOT the source of smitten-ness for Shep, McKay, or both! Huzzah, it can be done!

-The costuming was far better this ep.

-Rodney apparently has not devolved back into his irritating, arrogant self, a possible nod to his development in Tao (we'll see if this keeps up though).

-The chess game at the end was cute.

Bad:

-Shep and McKay were so flippant over the fact that their game was affecting real people, even when they were in the middle of the war with the people that they affected. Zelenka and Lorne were little better. The men acted like children while Weir had to play the rational, angry mom/teacher. I've always disliked this setup - I find it to be a major disservice to all characters involved. :weir44:

-The whole Sims game plotline didn't really keep my interest.

-Are we just letting anyone into Atlantis now? I thought the city was still supposed to be hidden from the wraith. I figure it was an opportunity to bring Weir's diplomacy skills into the picture (and fat lot of good those were :mckay:) and allow the people to access the machine (why wouldn't they and/or the machine stay under guard though?) but it made little sense.

-The train ethical dilemma in the beginning was another example of introducing Earth ideas to the PGers when I'd like to see more of the other way around.

-Again, Teyla, Ronon, and Weir were underutilized and Carson was completely absent.


All in all, I give the ep a "meh," with the runnning total for the second half so far being two great eps, two mehs, and one stinker. :S

caty
December 20th, 2006, 10:14 AM
Rodney gave them a lot of technology. By combining thoes technologies, they were able to build a bomb. However, Rodney never told them how to build a bomb. To him, it was a game.

The point is that John was the one who started the war-mongerng. He immediately assumed Rodney would eventually attack him.

It was a game to Sheppard, too... You're not just gonna take when the other player cheats. We saw what they did with their technology, so what's wrong with increasing your army in case they try to steal your coal (was it coal?) and other things??
Just let them take everything they want with their new technology and wisdom without standing up for yourself?
What kind of country would that be? I'm sure if Sheppard hadn't done anything to defend 'his country' people would have called him a coward..
And at least he stayed fair and didn't cheat with his measures...

But in some people's eyes, he can't do anything right ;)

grasshopper64
December 20th, 2006, 10:19 AM
A so-so ep for me, not one of the best, not one of the worst, a bit boring at times. I felt shades of The Other Side and also Fallout, when they were arguing.

I agree with what others said, both Mckay/Shepperd and also Lorne and Zelenka were being immature and Weir was like the schoolteacher telling them off, it felt more like High School Atlantis at times:)

I am getting a little tired of the whole Sam/Mckay thing, I wish they'd give it a rest. However Rodney was much more likeable I think in this ep and a bit less arrogant perhaps than he has been previously.
Teyla/Ronon could have had more involvement.

By the way, did I miss something but who exactly is Katie Brown?

leelakin
December 20th, 2006, 10:30 AM
By the way, did I miss something but who exactly is Katie Brown?

Katie Brown is the woman Rodney had a date with in "Duet".

Pitry
December 20th, 2006, 10:33 AM
You know, I haven't seen the episode yet, but I've seen a lot of anti-ancient sentiment growing, both online and in the text of both of the shows. One thing that sorta bugs me, or at least makes me wonder... do we have a definitive date on when the Ori-Ancients split from Alterran-Ancient society?

We've been seeing that the ancients weren't exactly all that and a bag of chips, and that they definitely created some big FUBAR messes back in their day with some really sticky moral dilemas attached to them.

I just wonder if some of the most assholish aspects of the ancients that we've seen so far, like the Asurans and the [sp for TOR]ascension machine, weren't created by beings that later became the Ori. I wonder if the split happened before or after the ancients started ascending. If that's the case, there were some pretty evil minded ancients that would have existed right along side the more beneficient ancients, which would explain a lot.

Well, there is the possibility the Orii ascended before the Ancients did, tried to wipe them out and missed those in Pegasus. That, at least, makes some sort of sense. (the unanswered question is of course whether all ascended Ancients are Lantians or are there also ascended Ancients from the MW).
I'm pretty sure the rift between the ORii and the Ancients took place millions of years before that, tho... after all, the gate systenm in MW is suposed to be, what? 50 million years old?

FallenAngelII
December 20th, 2006, 10:41 AM
It was a game to Sheppard, too... You're not just gonna take when the other player cheats. We saw what they did with their technology, so what's wrong with increasing your army in case they try to steal your coal (was it coal?) and other things??
Just let them take everything they want with their new technology and wisdom without standing up for yourself?
What kind of country would that be? I'm sure if Sheppard hadn't done anything to defend 'his country' people would have called him a coward..
And at least he stayed fair and didn't cheat with his measures...

But in some people's eyes, he can't do anything right ;)
Not even Rodney saw what they did with that technology. The only act of aggression Rodney did was to steal John's coal, but that was only way after John increased his army.

And John wasn't even using his coal and was apparentely refusing to negotiate about its mining (even though Rodney was trying to set up unfair conditions, no doubt).

The fact remains, all Rodney did ('til he started stealing coal) was give his people technological advancement. John chose to keep his people on the same level and instead turned their nation into a war-nation.

Then he further inflamed things by repeatedly showing animosity towards Rodney and his side when in Baten's company (not a smart thing to do).

Since you seem to think I dislike John, have you seen my avatar?

caty
December 20th, 2006, 10:51 AM
Not even Rodney saw what they did with that technology. The only act of aggression Rodney did was to steal John's coal, but that was only way after John increased his army.

And John wasn't even using his coal and was apparentely refusing to negotiate about its mining (even though Rodney was trying to set up unfair conditions, no doubt).

The fact remains, all Rodney did ('til he started stealing coal) was give his people technological advancement. John chose to keep his people on the same level and instead turned their nation into a war-nation.

Then he further inflamed things by repeatedly showing animosity towards Rodney and his side when in Baten's company (not a smart thing to do).

Since you seem to think I dislike John, have you seen my avatar?

Yes, I have... And I have also seen tons of your posts, thank you very much.

Yeah, so just yield to unfair conditions... Just give them whatever they want, ´because you don't want to get in any trouble and don't want to upset anyone..
Again, what kind of country lets other countries use them like that? So just do nothing while the other country gets so technologically advanced that it could destroy your country with bombs? Sure they didn't know that Geldar could built bombs. And they also didn't know if they could. In fact, they had no idea what they were able and what they were willing to do!
Shep just prepared his country for the worst case scenario. And since all the technology was on Geldar's side, what other choice did he have to defend his country?
He didn't attack them, he just reacted...

PG15
December 20th, 2006, 11:08 AM
I doubt the Ancients ever told their villagers to go to war over trade treaties. This was never a "game" to be won. It was simply a game about fostering your people to help them prosper.


I meant in the more general case of "what happens when you have the power to control an entire people".

FallenAngelII
December 20th, 2006, 11:16 AM
Yes, I have... And I have also seen tons of your posts, thank you very much.

Yeah, so just yield to unfair conditions... Just give them whatever they want, ´because you don't want to get in any trouble and don't want to upset anyone..
Again, what kind of country lets other countries use them like that? So just do nothing while the other country gets so technologically advanced that it could destroy your country with bombs? Sure they didn't know that Geldar could built bombs. And they also didn't know if they could. In fact, they had no idea what they were able and what they were willing to do!
Shep just prepared his country for the worst case scenario. And since all the technology was on Geldar's side, what other choice did he have to defend his country?
He didn't attack them, he just reacted...
He could at least have negotiated. From what I got from the episode, John got offended by Rodney's initial offer and then refused all furhter negotiation. Of course, that's Rodney's fault.

You said so yourself. John prepared his country for the worst case scenario. It was that preparation that inevitably lead to war. Had he not done it, they still be two countries in peace with some tension over a botched deal instead of wanting to rip each other's throats out.

John also inflamed it further with the gifts that he knew Rodney was allergic to (be it for fun or not).

Of course they both thought it was a game, but you must admit that had John not sent those gifts or prepared for war, which prompted Rodney to respond, the war would not have come to be.

Yes, it wasn't his fault that the war started per se. But he was one who did the big things. Plus the ill blood he kept showing around Baten when trying to negotiate a truce, always repeating how the other side was cheating and agreeing with Baten on how bad they were.

Sidenote: Not approving of everything a character does does not equal hating them. So I disapprove of his sexual adventures and what he did in this episode. Obviously I must hate him.

Anjirika
December 20th, 2006, 12:40 PM
I loved this ep. I thought it was well written and hilariously funny...the John and Rodney banter was great, the scene between Lorne (Yay lorne's back!) and Zelenka was great too! I loved how we got to see Elizabeth negotiate again, and I loved how royally p/o'ed she was at the guys. ^_^ I personally saw some Sparky undertones with the lack of personal space and the scene at the end when John asks Elizabeth how the negotiations are going- however the one plot hole that I saw was when John's guy ordered his people to attack- John was there- I don't understand why he was so surprised, and why he didn't ask his guy what he was doing....but other than that small plot hole I found the entire episode great. Especially the ending- which was so unexpected....oh yeah, and Rodney's still got a thing for blondes, and his people hate citrus...^_^ gotta love it. ^_^

Merlin7
December 20th, 2006, 01:42 PM
He could at least have negotiated. From what I got from the episode, John got offended by Rodney's initial offer and then refused all furhter negotiation. Of course, that's Rodney's fault.

You said so yourself. John prepared his country for the worst case scenario. It was that preparation that inevitably lead to war. Had he not done it, they still be two countries in peace with some tension over a botched deal instead of wanting to rip each other's throats out.

John also inflamed it further with the gifts that he knew Rodney was allergic to (be it for fun or not).

Of course they both thought it was a game, but you must admit that had John not sent those gifts or prepared for war, which prompted Rodney to respond, the war would not have come to be.

Yes, it wasn't his fault that the war started per se. But he was one who did the big things. Plus the ill blood he kept showing around Baten when trying to negotiate a truce, always repeating how the other side was cheating and agreeing with Baten on how bad they were.

Sidenote: Not approving of everything a character does does not equal hating them. So I disapprove of his sexual adventures and what he did in this episode. Obviously I must hate him.


As John said. Rodney didn't negotiate jack. He gave a list of demands and offered something John didn't need in return. Rodney cheated. It was a GAME. When it became real they were all affected by it.

John didn't do anything wrong. He didn't start any war. But he would have been within his right too, in the GAME, after all the cheating Rodney did. Too bad Rodney couldn't have played the game fairly.

The minute Rodney started cheating, John had the right to do what he did and he did it without cheating. In the GAME. ::Shakes head::

Twinchy
December 20th, 2006, 01:43 PM
Firstly, they thought it was a harmless game but when the truth came out, they were both to blame in general,but it was unintentional. I totally TOTALLY blame more on Rodney overall. He cheated. Cheated. Cheated. And everything John did was in response to what Rodney did.

Oh...did I mention that Rodney Cheated? Cause. Yeah. He did. Completely.


"It's only cheating if you get cought!" according to Gaheris Rhade (Steve Bacic) on "Andromeda" ;)


Pretty much all of what you are referring to as John's war-mongering happened within the context of the game - when they thought it was just a game. In that context, responding to McKay's request to trade by sending his country lemons was a JOKE, a wind-up, something designed to tease and irritate Rodney - because that's the kind of friendship Sheppard and McKay have.

I second that.
The way Rodney and John behave towards each other all the time, I'm sure this idea instantly came to John's mind as an appropriate answer... He loves to tease Rodney as much as Rodney loves getting on John's nerves! It's their odd way of showing their affection.


I did enjoy much of the banter and also Ronon and Teyla's bemusement at not only the oddness of Earth culture but also the oddness - and combative nature - of Sheppard and McKay's friendship.

That's always something worth watching! I believe that almost every member of the whole expedition finds their teasing and competitive friendship entertaining most of the time.


Adored the ending and getting to see Brainy!Shep once again - and an interesting side note that I recalled from the episode Intruder that makes the chess scene all the more interesting:
SHEPPARD: Well, I hope you're good at chess.
McKAY: I don't get to play much -- it's tough finding challenging opponents.

That's also what first came to my mind, regarding this scene.
I found myself grinning like a frog on dope... *grins still, remembering it*
Guess, they will be playing Chess in their spare time for about the next x-illion years! :D

LoveConquers
December 20th, 2006, 02:11 PM
Not even Rodney saw what they did with that technology. The only act of aggression Rodney did was to steal John's coal, but that was only way after John increased his army.
And John wasn't even using his coal and was apparentely refusing to negotiate about its mining (even though Rodney was trying to set up unfair conditions, no doubt).

The fact remains, all Rodney did ('til he started stealing coal) was give his people technological advancement. John chose to keep his people on the same level and instead turned their nation into a war-nation.
Then he further inflamed things by repeatedly showing animosity towards Rodney and his side when in Baten's company (not a smart thing to do).

Since you seem to think I dislike John, have you seen my avatar?

In my opinion, you're making a lot of assumptions here. Rodney's act of aggression was to do more than steal from another country, which in and of itself is pretty bad. He ordered the drilling of the tunnel two weeks ago and at the point they learn it's not just a game, they are three miles into John's country. You are saying that if a suspect enemy is on your homesoil, you would not find that an act of agression? You would stay at the negotiating table while they knowingly proceeded and continue to proceed to drill, to invade, to steal, while refusing to negotiate beyond their own list of demands? The stall in negotiatons goes both ways. You would continue to sit at the table anyway while you're in process of being invaded?

And because John's country was not currently using their coal, it's ok to steal it? The second half of your statement is an assumption. We do not know if John refused to negotiate over coal. All we do know is that Rodney's one and only attempt to negotiate was to send over a list of demands. We can maybe assume coal was one of those demands. We do know he offered nothing but beans in return. We do know he refused to give John wood. Why on earth would John give his coal when he cannot get the things he actually needs in return? And when the negotating stalled, Rodney invaded. Yet you expect John to still stay at that table.


And since when is gearing up your army an act of aggression? Rodney focused on technology, John focused on military. They both had their own areas of focus and neither initially intended for them to be aggressive. So again, you're saying that for a country to be well prepared is an act of aggression? You're assuming it was a reactive instead of a defensive move? Again, all I see is another assumption. You'll assume it might not have been against the rules for Rondey to give technology beyond their development, but it was not ok for John to build up militarily with means appropriate for that time?

I am not saying you dislike John. Nothing of the sort. I am just baffled why you'll excuse Rodney with so many assumptions, but won't grant the same absolution to John.

Quinn Mallory
December 20th, 2006, 02:27 PM
Interesting episode. It was an entertaining idea but I felt they made the behaviors of Sheppard and McKay and later Zelenka and Lorne to be too cartoonish. They have seen, first hand, from their exploration about the consequences of meddling with less advanced villagers. I don't quite buy that their competetive spirits would take over that knowledge.

Although the villagers did end up taking up responsibility to start the wars themselves, I would have expected McKay and Sheppard to make more of an effort to stop them sooner...of course, that would effectively limit the amount of fun banter between the two characters.

Arlessiar
December 20th, 2006, 03:08 PM
I wonder if David Hewlett got to keep any of the portraits after the episode? Yeah, me too! And if yes, then I want to know what Jane says about the paintings. :D

Rodney has definitely improved with time. A year ago he would have been full of himself, knowing that he was a god to an entire civilisation. Think so too. I expected him to act very pleased and smugly, thought that he'd tease his teammates with "bow before me" behaviour, but he didn't (I'm glad he didn't). In fact he wanted to clear up the whole mess pretty quickly and didn't want to be worshipped. Maybe he learnt a thing or two from the whole trouble with Lucius.


No more OMG!Wraith! or OMG!Asurans arcs Which reminds me, why did the Wraith never visit/cull that planet? Have they ever been there, and if not, why not? Has that been mentioned?

Bye, A.

Agent_Dark
December 20th, 2006, 03:13 PM
While Rodney would surely want his people to "beat" Sheppard's when it comes to prosperity, he would never ever have attacked Sheppard's people.

He didn't give his people the instructions on how to build weapons. They did that on their own (he didn't know they were actual people). And he only strengthened his military (and even then it was tiny compared to Hallona's) after John had doubled his forces.

While Rodney is competitive and no doubt wanted to win over John, it wasn't by force. John, however, being the warhawk that he is, immediately assumed an attack was coming and planned for it, making his people think it was coming.

(On a side note, Nolah did foster ill-will towards Hallona and didn't hesitate to attack back herself, but Rodney never fed her instructions to go to war. And he did everything he could to stop the war instead of rambling about how bad of a person the other Oracle was.)
All paths lead to war in an RTS. Even the ones that supposedly offer the other routes.
And I dont even know why there needs to be blame laid? They were playing a game. Like I said, you'll end up attacking the other player at some point during an RTS anyway. No one is to blame for causing the war, because war is what you do in games.

tbl
December 20th, 2006, 03:19 PM
The beginning was funny. The obvious subtext of that episode was to show how lack of understanding of ancient technology can be devasting. The chest game at the end was a nice touch.

Luz
December 20th, 2006, 03:31 PM
Which reminds me, why did the Wraith never visit/cull that planet? Have they ever been there, and if not, why not? Has that been mentioned?

Bye, A.
Teyla asked if they had ever had troubles with the wraith, and Nola told them that they'd attacked periodically, culled them, destroyed the village and the survivors rebuilt.

LoveConquers
December 20th, 2006, 03:38 PM
Which reminds me, why did the Wraith never visit/cull that planet? Have they ever been there, and if not, why not? Has that been mentioned?

Bye, A.


Someone, I believe it was Teyla, did ask them about the wraith, and their reponse was that they had been culled from time to time, but rebuilt after each time.

LoveConquers
December 20th, 2006, 03:39 PM
Teyla asked if they had ever had troubles with the wraith, and Nola told them that they'd attacked periodically, culled them, destroyed the village and the survivors rebuilt.

Oh oops, sorry! Didn't see you had already answered this! :o

ShoDar
December 20th, 2006, 05:14 PM
Interesting episode. It was an entertaining idea but I felt they made the behaviors of Sheppard and McKay and later Zelenka and Lorne to be too cartoonish. They have seen, first hand, from their exploration about the consequences of meddling with less advanced villagers. I don't quite buy that their competetive spirits would take over that knowledge.

Although the villagers did end up taking up responsibility to start the wars themselves, I would have expected McKay and Sheppard to make more of an effort to stop them sooner...of course, that would effectively limit the amount of fun banter between the two characters.

I kind of agree with the comment about them being cartoonish, but then I also have witnessed pacifists play video games, so I think it was fairly accurate. Human behaviour in general leads us all to think that we know better than anybody else and this kind of system really played into that. Even when Radek and Lorne knew it wasn't a game anymore, they were still convinced that if only the other guy would do things their way, everything would be fine.

Vash
December 20th, 2006, 05:20 PM
I find it funny how the anicents loved to meddle with peoples lives when they are alive but have a problem when ascended.

the old briar pipe
December 20th, 2006, 06:19 PM
And since when is gearing up your army an act of aggression?

Eh. Since WWII, at least. Many countries are understandably nervous at buildups on their borders. Then again, Geldar's tech was a kind of buildup, too, so it's also understandable that John would also be nervous.


Rodney focused on technology, John focused on military. They both had their own areas of focus and neither initially intended for them to be aggressive.

Hm. Sort of? It's the setup of the 'Game', or more accurately, the Earth-style interpretation of that setup as competitive that almost led to war. It wasn't one man or the other - it was their entire approach to each other. By assuming they were in a competition, they took a bunch of peaceful villages and catapulted them into Europe in the late middle ages, yay.


I am just baffled why you'll excuse Rodney with so many assumptions, but won't grant the same absolution to John.

This is where I can agree whole-heartedly. The excusing of Rodney (or John) sounds bizarre next to the lambasting of John (or Rodney), when they both did what they did in order to win.

Though perhaps John suffered from less sympathetic screen-time. After all, he didn't have a pretty lady crying over him turning out to be 'just a man'. ;)


Guess, they will be playing Chess in their spare time for about the next x-illion years! :D

Ahaha, right. :D Can't wait to see what trouble they'll stumble into next.

2ndgenerationalteran
December 20th, 2006, 06:37 PM
i wonder if there are any lone civilizations, being wier clears them would it be in the best interest to advance them technilogically, prematurely but eventually in time it may help us gain allies

LoveConquers
December 20th, 2006, 06:39 PM
Eh. Since WWII, at least. Many countries are understandably nervous at buildups on their borders. Then again, Geldar's tech was a kind of buildup, too, so it's also understandable that John would also be nervous.



Hm. Sort of? It's the setup of the 'Game', or more accurately, the Earth-style interpretation of that setup as competitive that almost led to war. It wasn't one man or the other - it was their entire approach to each other. By assuming they were in a competition, they took a bunch of peaceful villages and catapulted them into Europe in the late middle ages, yay.



This is where I can agree whole-heartedly. The excusing of Rodney (or John) sounds bizarre next to the lambasting of John (or Rodney), when they both did what they did in order to win.

Though perhaps John suffered from less sympathetic screen-time. After all, he didn't have a pretty lady crying over him turning out to be 'just a man'. ;)



Ahaha, right. :D Can't wait to see what trouble they'll stumble into next.


You're asuming deployment, I am assuming recruitment. All we know is that John encouraged him to build up his army. There was never anything said about that army building up at the border. If that was the case, then yes, I wholeheartedly agree neighboring borders would of course be nervous. And that would go back way further than just WWII. :)

And I agree with your comments on their intentions in the context of the game. The villages were already set in the "middle ages" if you will, they did not take them there. Rodney built them up and John left there where they were at. John's reaction to Rodney's moves as being "cheating" implies that it was against the game to advance them beyond their current means. We do not know however if that was really the "rules" or just John's interpretation of them.
They each had their individual focus goals on where to take their people. Rodney's focus was again on technology and John's was on military. Which then led to the inevitable tensions prone from such competitive behavior as you said.

I too can't wait to see what they stumble into next. :)

LoveConquers
December 20th, 2006, 06:48 PM
I kind of agree with the comment about them being cartoonish, but then I also have witnessed pacifists play video games, so I think it was fairly accurate. Human behaviour in general leads us all to think that we know better than anybody else and this kind of system really played into that. Even when Radek and Lorne knew it wasn't a game anymore, they were still convinced that if only the other guy would do things their way, everything would be fine.

I love how you said this! Excellent observation of human nature. In this episode, we saw all our heroes become fallible.

Luz
December 20th, 2006, 06:56 PM
The excusing of Rodney (or John) sounds bizarre next to the lambasting of John (or Rodney), when they both did what they did in order to win.

Yeah, plus they thought it was a game, granted I haven't played a video game since back when I was ten and pong was still hot, ;) but isn't the purpose of video games to win?, so I don't blame Rodney for trying to gain a little advantage (I don't consider what he did was cheating), and I don't blame John for trying not to be left behind. Each one tried to use their assets to move forward in the game, science for Rodney, military strategies for Sheppard.

Though perhaps John suffered from less sympathetic screen-time. After all, he didn't have a pretty lady crying over him turning out to be 'just a man'. ;)

Sheppard doesn't need no pretty lady to gain my sympathy, ;) I'm actually glad that Nola was on Rodney's side, I shudder to think of the attacks poor Sheppard would have suffered if Nola had been the leader of his village.

ShoDar
December 20th, 2006, 07:20 PM
I love how you said this! Excellent observation of human nature. In this episode, we saw all our heroes become fallible.
lol, I think we knew Rodney was fallible already! which may have been the point of showing Zalenka and Lorne...it wasn't just the Rodney/John competitiveness/friendship/flirting going on.

I once knew somebody who had done one of those mock UN things in school. Apparently they tried to be serious about it and did research and everything ...and nearly ended up blowing up their "world"



Secondary thought: anybody else noticing that in the last few episodes, Rodney is spending quite a bit of time with Ronon? We see him with John a lot and now Ronon but hardly ever Teyla unless they're all there as a team.

LoveConquers
December 20th, 2006, 07:43 PM
lol, I think we knew Rodney was fallible already! .

LOL! Too true... :)

Nolamom
December 20th, 2006, 08:38 PM
I'm actually glad that Nola was on Rodney's side, I shudder to think of the attacks poor Sheppard would have suffered if Nola had been the leader of his village.
Hehehe...just a tad bloodthirsty there at the point of war (don't mess with a gal named Nola)
Nola

Arlessiar
December 20th, 2006, 09:04 PM
Teyla asked if they had ever had troubles with the wraith, and Nola told them that they'd attacked periodically, culled them, destroyed the village and the survivors rebuilt.

Someone, I believe it was Teyla, did ask them about the wraith, and their reponse was that they had been culled from time to time, but rebuilt after each time. Thanks! I already suspected that I missed this because I couldn't imagine that TPTB would forget about this while writing the show (although, who knows... :rolleyes:). Sometimes I don't get everything they say on the show (foreign language) and I didn't have time to read a transcript yet.

Bye, A.

FallenAngelII
December 20th, 2006, 09:25 PM
As John said. Rodney didn't negotiate jack. He gave a list of demands and offered something John didn't need in return. Rodney cheated. It was a GAME. When it became real they were all affected by it.

John didn't do anything wrong. He didn't start any war. But he would have been within his right too, in the GAME, after all the cheating Rodney did. Too bad Rodney couldn't have played the game fairly.

The minute Rodney started cheating, John had the right to do what he did and he did it without cheating. In the GAME. ::Shakes head::
Rodney gave his people steam engines, bikes and other stuff to make their lives easier and John had the right to start a war?! What kind of logic is that?!


In my opinion, you're making a lot of assumptions here. Rodney's act of aggression was to do more than steal from another country, which in and of itself is pretty bad. He ordered the drilling of the tunnel two weeks ago and at the point they learn it's not just a game, they are three miles into John's country. You are saying that if a suspect enemy is on your homesoil, you would not find that an act of agression? You would stay at the negotiating table while they knowingly proceeded and continue to proceed to drill, to invade, to steal, while refusing to negotiate beyond their own list of demands? The stall in negotiatons goes both ways. You would continue to sit at the table anyway while you're in process of being invaded?

And because John's country was not currently using their coal, it's ok to steal it? The second half of your statement is an assumption. We do not know if John refused to negotiate over coal. All we do know is that Rodney's one and only attempt to negotiate was to send over a list of demands. We can maybe assume coal was one of those demands. We do know he offered nothing but beans in return. We do know he refused to give John wood. Why on earth would John give his coal when he cannot get the things he actually needs in return? And when the negotating stalled, Rodney invaded. Yet you expect John to still stay at that table.


And since when is gearing up your army an act of aggression? Rodney focused on technology, John focused on military. They both had their own areas of focus and neither initially intended for them to be aggressive. So again, you're saying that for a country to be well prepared is an act of aggression? You're assuming it was a reactive instead of a defensive move? Again, all I see is another assumption. You'll assume it might not have been against the rules for Rondey to give technology beyond their development, but it was not ok for John to build up militarily with means appropriate for that time?

I am not saying you dislike John. Nothing of the sort. I am just baffled why you'll excuse Rodney with so many assumptions, but won't grant the same absolution to John.
It sounded a lot to me like John's gearing up was in response to Rodney's cheating. He said so himself.


All paths lead to war in an RTS. Even the ones that supposedly offer the other routes.
And I dont even know why there needs to be blame laid? They were playing a game. Like I said, you'll end up attacking the other player at some point during an RTS anyway. No one is to blame for causing the war, because war is what you do in games.
The thing here is that while John might've been playing it like an RTS, Rodney was playing it like The Sims 2.

LoveConquers
December 20th, 2006, 10:05 PM
Rodney gave his people steam engines, bikes and other stuff to make their lives easier and John had the right to start a war?! What kind of logic is that?!


It sounded a lot to me like John's gearing up was in response to Rodney's cheating. He said so himself.


The thing here is that while John might've been playing it like an RTS, Rodney was playing it like The Sims 2.

Why do you keep saying that John started the war? What are you basing this upon? I respect that you would have your own opinion as to their individual motives and that you feel Rodney's technological focus was more noble than John's military focus, but it is purely speculative and is seemingly against the little that is known from this episode.

Watch the jumper scene again in the beginning. The dialogue and thus the facts state that they first negotiated, Rodney with his "list of demands" and trade off of a "whole crop of beans" and John asking for lumber. Rodney counters he wouldn't give it because John wanted to use it to build defensive fortifications and that John had doubled his army. John counters he only did so after Rodney started cheating (as you said) and that he is not the only one building his army. Rodney then counters that he only did so to protect his country from John.
The dialogue shows that each was reactive after the other, each claiming to be defensive, not offensive. But the trigger for it all was the cheating.

You keep saying that Rodney's cheating was harmless because it was only technology. Yet his technology is what allowed his people to build a bomb before their time. You said Rodney did not knowinglly give them a bomb, they figured it out themselves. This is correct. But it does not negate the point that Rodney's cheating led to the bomb and led to the digging of coal and the invasion of John's country. Rodney said he did all this defensively, John said he did his actions defensively. Rodney's people invaded. Rodney's people built the bomb. And Rodney's people attacked first. Against Rodney's will. So yes, in this aspect, I agree with you, he had good intentions. But it does not take away the ramifications of his actions. In this way, his cheating, regardless of intentions, was far from harmless.

John built up his army and wanted lumber for defense. He said so himself. That is the only fact that is known. Absolutely nowhere does it indicate that John started a war. Every indication is in fact that he responded defensively, after trade negotiations stalled. The facts also show his army did not counter-attack until after Rodney's had invaded. The facts show that Rodney's army made the first move, upon Rodney's order while he still thought it was a game.

Again, I ask, where do you get "John started a war" from any of these facts? The argument that Rodney's intentions with his technology was for good is not complete. It did some good ("team engines, bikes and other stuff to make their lives easier"), but you are ignoring the damage it caused as well. There was a dark side to that technology as they so painfully learned.

In the same way, the argument that "John geared up in response to Rodney's cheating" also does not support your statement that "John started a war." Even if we for a moment assume it was offensive deployment and not defensive recruitment, as the dialogue suggests, it still does not mean he started the war. Even if he had been preparing for one, the facts show that Rodney's people are the ones that attacked first, not John's. And they attacked not because they feared the large army perse, but firstly because they wanted his coal and when they couldn't negotiate for it, they stole it. Their reasoning? They needed the coal to continue their advancement for defense. Yet they moved offensively. How is this any different then John building up an army for defense? And he did not move offensively.

Both had good intentions, but the lure of greater technology before they were ready and before they fully understood it led to the eventual moral downfall of Rodney's people (ie, stealing and invading). It was never Rodney's intention, but yet it happened. The team had to show them with a final mass simulation just how dangerous that technology can be before they finally agreed to negotiate again. It was ultimately that premature access to technology and the desire for more by people not yet ready or able to understand the causality that led to the crossover from tensions to war.

FallenAngelII
December 20th, 2006, 10:09 PM
Why do you keep saying that John started the war?
I said John made a lot of actions that eventually lead to the war.

The guy I was quoting in my last post claimed Rodney's cheating gave John all the right to start a war.

I shall now ignore everything you said past this sentence because you didn't even bother to read through the quote in my last post (and apparentely you didn't read his original post, either).

LoveConquers
December 20th, 2006, 10:22 PM
I said John made a lot of actions that eventually lead to the war.

The guy I was quoting in my last post claimed Rodney's cheating gave John all the right to start a war.

I shall now ignore everything you said past this sentence because you didn't even bother to read through the quote in my last post (and apparentely you didn't read his original post, either).

Yes, the quote was from your original statement that "It was that [John's] preparation that inevitably lead to war." Ie, the person was summarizing your statement that John's actions started a war. If this is in fact not what you are trying to say, then if I may suggest, you might want to clarify your earlier statements as more than one person has taken them that way.

And ignoring my quoting of facts does not help your argument any.

Please understand, I am simply trying to understand your viewpoint.

FallenAngelII
December 20th, 2006, 10:28 PM
Yes, the quote was from your original statement that "It was that [John's] preparation that inevitably lead to war." Ie, the person was summarizing your statement that John's actions started a war. If this is in fact not what you are trying to say, then if I may suggest, you might want to clarify your earlier statements as more than one person has taken them that way.

And ignoring my quoting of facts does not help your argument any.

Please understand, I am simply trying to understand your viewpoint.
One of the posts I quoted (and replied to, the reply being what you replied to) said:

"John didn't do anything wrong. He didn't start any war. But he would have been within his right too, in the GAME, after all the cheating Rodney did."

Which was why I replied with:
"Rodney gave his people steam engines, bikes and other stuff to make their lives easier and John had the right to start a war."

When replying to people who are replying to quotes, I suggest you actually read the quotes in the future.

If you want to understand my viewpoint, backtrack at least one page and read through my posts. I shouldn't have to repeat myself every time someone new enters.

I've never said John started the war. I've said that a lot of John's actions built up to be the brunt of the actions that lead to the war. He didn't do them intentionally. But he did them nonetheless.

LoveConquers
December 20th, 2006, 10:41 PM
One of the posts I quoted (and replied to, the reply being what you replied to) said:

"John didn't do anything wrong. He didn't start any war. But he would have been within his right too, in the GAME, after all the cheating Rodney did."

Which was why I replied with:
"Rodney gave his people steam engines, bikes and other stuff to make their lives easier and John had the right to start a war."

When replying to people who are replying to quotes, I suggest you actually read the quotes in the future.

If you want to understand my viewpoint, backtrack at least one page and read through my posts. I shouldn't have to repeat myself every time someone new enters.

I've never said John started the war. I've said that a lot of John's actions built up to be the brunt of the actions that lead to the war. He didn't do them intentionally. But he did them nonetheless.

I was asking if you wouldn't mind clarifying your viewpoint, not repeat it.

And this still brings us back to the question in my last post. You are correct, it would be more accurate to quote you saying that John's actions built up to be the brunt of the actions that led to the war. (IMO, a fine point from saying John started a war as that also in and of itself has nothing to do with intention). Regardless, I apologize for that. But it does not change my question. In my post which you did not do me the courtesy to read, I was asking how you came to the conclusion that it was John's actions and not Rodney's that led to this war and I backed my question and my own opinion with what I felt were facts from the episode. Again, I am just trying to understand what facts or dialogue led you to your conclusion that it was John's actions that led to the brunt of the actions that led to the war.

We are basically saying the exact same thing. That actions led to war, despite the good intentions of the doer. I am simply asking how you believe it was John and not Rodney's actions, as I believe, that brought about this outcome.

Linzi
December 20th, 2006, 10:52 PM
Why do you keep saying that John started the war? What are you basing this upon? I respect that you would have your own opinion as to their individual motives and that you feel Rodney's technological focus was more noble than John's military focus, but it is purely speculative and is seemingly against the little that is known from this episode.

Watch the jumper scene again in the beginning. The dialogue and thus the facts state that they first negotiated, Rodney with his "list of demands" and trade off of a "whole crop of beans" and John asking for lumber. Rodney counters he wouldn't give it because John wanted to use it to build defensive fortifications and that John had doubled his army. John counters he only did so after Rodney started cheating (as you said) and that he is not the only one building his army. Rodney then counters that he only did so to protect his country from John.
The dialogue shows that each was reactive after the other, each claiming to be defensive, not offensive. But the trigger for it all was the cheating.

You keep saying that Rodney's cheating was harmless because it was only technology. Yet his technology is what allowed his people to build a bomb before their time. You said Rodney did not knowinglly give them a bomb, they figured it out themselves. This is correct. But it does not negate the point that Rodney's cheating led to the bomb and led to the digging of coal and the invasion of John's country. Rodney said he did all this defensively, John said he did his actions defensively. Rodney's people invaded. Rodney's people built the bomb. And Rodney's people attacked first. Against Rodney's will. So yes, in this aspect, I agree with you, he had good intentions. But it does not take away the ramifications of his actions. In this way, his cheating, regardless of intentions, was far from harmless.

John built up his army and wanted lumber for defense. He said so himself. That is the only fact that is known. Absolutely nowhere does it indicate that John started a war. Every indication is in fact that he responded defensively, after trade negotiations stalled. The facts also show his army did not counter-attack until after Rodney's had invaded. The facts show that Rodney's army made the first move, upon Rodney's order while he still thought it was a game.

Again, I ask, where do you get "John started a war" from any of these facts? The argument that Rodney's intentions with his technology was for good is not complete. It did some good ("team engines, bikes and other stuff to make their lives easier"), but you are ignoring the damage it caused as well. There was a dark side to that technology as they so painfully learned.

In the same way, the argument that "John geared up in response to Rodney's cheating" also does not support your statement that "John started a war." Even if we for a moment assume it was offensive deployment and not defensive recruitment, as the dialogue suggests, it still does not mean he started the war. Even if he had been preparing for one, the facts show that Rodney's people are the ones that attacked first, not John's. And they attacked not because they feared the large army perse, but firstly because they wanted his coal and when they couldn't negotiate for it, they stole it. Their reasoning? They needed the coal to continue their advancement for defense. Yet they moved offensively. How is this any different then John building up an army for defense? And he did not move offensively.

Both had good intentions, but the lure of greater technology before they were ready and before they fully understood it led to the eventual moral downfall of Rodney's people (ie, stealing and invading). It was never Rodney's intention, but yet it happened. The team had to show them with a final mass simulation just how dangerous that technology can be before they finally agreed to negotiate again. It was ultimately that premature access to technology and the desire for more by people not yet ready or able to understand the causality that led to the crossover from tensions to war.
What an excellent and well thought out post. I agree 100%.
Some people just don't want to see the facts as they were laid down in the episode, and then just ignore what you post because they don't agree with the logical response you give.
What you say makes perfect sense, no matter who you think is to blame for the escalation of agression between the two countries. Because you are stating the facts of what transpired.
I personally don't see why either Sheppard or McKay should be singled out for blame here as such. They both were playing a game to win! Had they realised it was not actually a game the situation would've been different and so would have their actions.
Blaming one over the other smacks of not wanting to admit the culpability one's obvious favourite character has here.
McKay cheated by giving advanced technology which led to an unfair advantage for his country. Yes, the Geldans made the bomb themselves but ONLY after McKay had given them the scientific know how to do so. To say McKay wasn't directly responsible is akin to saying, hey, you haven't mastered fire yet? Well here's a match. It'll make you a better country with a better way of life. You burnt your enemies forest down? How's that my fault? I only showed them how they could make fire, didn't tell them what to do with it.
Had he not given them that information they wouldn't have been able to do that. Also McKay gave the Geldan's the order to drill into their neighbours country, which is clearly an act of agression. Anyone remember Kuwait and the attempt to steal oil there which caused a bloody war? Infact most wars are started by an incursion onto a neighbours land.
So, actually, I've changed my mind. McKay was more to blame because he cheated and ordered his country to steal Hallona's resources ;) :lol:

FallenAngelII
December 20th, 2006, 10:53 PM
In my previous posts (yes, you should read them), I made it clear that Rodney was to blame as well. He did two things that were key to the conflict:
1) Offered a bad trade deal (very early)
2) Stole coal (very late, though)

The important thing to note here is that while Rodney offered a bad deal, it was John's response to it that lead to a lot of animosity, what with the offering of things that would kill Rodney.

With the coal, sure, it was theft. But nobody had gotten hurt. John's people responded by waging war. Instead of just jailing the people caught in the mines and demanding an apology and maybe ransome like civilized people, they immediately waged war.

Why? A lot of things.

But one of the things, one of the key things, that lead to war was John's doubling of his military. Rodney gave his people steam engines and bikes and John immediately felt threatened and instead of giving his people technological advancement as well, he prepared for war.

Then, once they'd discovered the game they were playing was real, while Rodney tried with all his might (though stumbling along the way and stuttering and not doing a very good job at it) at pacifying Nola, John kept saying Rodney cheated, insulting Rodney and talking badly about him and his people with Baten right there. Heck, he even agreed with some of Baten's points (some of which lead to war).

While Rodney did things that would later result in war, it was John's reactions to them (and the way he reacted) that lead to war.

Assuming someone is going to attack you just because they're researching steam engines and hot air balloons is not exactly a very peaceful way of thinking.

Yes, they both wanted to win, but through different means. Rodney wanted his people to be the most prosperous while John no doubt had a military mindset, not only wanting his people to be the most prosperous but almost the greatest war nation.

While Rodney played the game like The Sims 2, John played it like Warcraft 3.

Mitchell82
December 20th, 2006, 11:16 PM
I really enjoyed this ep as a fan of RTS game like Command and Conquer and Empire at War. I loved how Rodney and John were really getting into their roles of Ruler. As someone else already stated we saw all our characters become failable. Great epe iMO.

LoveConquers
December 20th, 2006, 11:25 PM
In my previous posts (yes, you should read them), I made it clear that Rodney was to blame as well. He did two things that were key to the conflict:
1) Offered a bad trade deal (very early)
2) Stole coal (very late, though)

The important thing to note here is that while Rodney offered a bad deal, it was John's response to it that lead to a lot of animosity, what with the offering of things that would kill Rodney.

With the coal, sure, it was theft. But nobody had gotten hurt. John's people responded by waging war. Instead of just jailing the people caught in the mines and demanding an apology and maybe ransome like civilized people, they immediately waged war.

Why? A lot of things.

But one of the things, one of the key things, that lead to war was John's doubling of his military. Rodney gave his people steam engines and bikes and John immediately felt threatened and instead of giving his people technological advancement as well, he prepared for war.

Then, once they'd discovered the game they were playing was real, while Rodney tried with all his might (though stumbling along the way and stuttering and not doing a very good job at it) at pacifying Nola, John kept saying Rodney cheated, insulting Rodney and talking badly about him and his people with Baten right there. Heck, he even agreed with some of Baten's points (some of which lead to war).

While Rodney did things that would later result in war, it was John's reactions to them (and the way he reacted) that lead to war.

Assuming someone is going to attack you just because they're researching steam engines and hot air balloons is not exactly a very peaceful way of thinking.

While Rodney played the game like The Sims 2, John played it like Warcraft 3.

Thank you for clarifying. And please do not assume I have not read your posts. You have said that more than once and I have politely ignored your sarcasm. Regardless again, thank you for your answer. I still see your facts as being out of order from how they were shown in the episode however.

Again, according to John's words himself, he acted defensively. You are assuming John's translation of "Rodney cheating" is that he only saw the good technology and that he built up his army in response to bikes and hot air balloons and other happy things. I understand that. I thought I had addressed that in my post that you did not read. I am merely suggesting that we do not know how much John did or did know about Rodney's cheating. We do know he feared Rodney's people having greater technology so he built up defensively. And we know that his fears, whatever they were, turned out to be completed grounded. It seems more logical to me to assume he was thinking rightfully beyond the happy times to understand the deeper possibilities than to say that John was so petty that he built up armies in response to happy things. Perhaps he was, but I suggesting that perhaps he wasn't. Either way, neither saw how fast things would spin out of control and neither intended for real people to get hurt.

But I do agree with you that John's response throughout was rather immature after finding out that it was not a game after all. His singular focus on Rodney cheating was ill-fitting for his character. Alipeeps made a great comment to that regard earlier and I fully agree.

It sounds like we believe the same outcome, but by different actions. I believe the opposite of you. I believe while John also did things that resulted in war, Rodney's actions (not John's reactions...again reactions suggest defensive, not offensive) lead to that war in the first place.

I cannot believe that John's sending citrus fruit is worse than Rodney stealing and then further justifying that stealing by saying no one got hurt. It was stealing. It was invasion. And yet a petty citrus insult is worse than that? And how does ordering someone to protect one's own borders, with the additional order to limit causalities, with the outcome of a peaceful stand down, equate to waging war? Again, it was purely defensive, defending one's own borders. Someone attacks you, invades your home, and you don't defend yourself? You try to put their entire army in jail? And then ask for a ransom? That is better than a peaceful stand down? And ironically, they would have still had to go to them, just like they did, to even be able to put them in jail. It is my humble opinion that Rodney's technology led to the greed for more, which led to their invasion of another country, which forced said country to defend itself. Obviously you do not agree, so I think at this point, it is best to move on.

Alas, Linz, you are completely correct. Both thought they were playing a game and both tried to fix it and ultimately, they did! That is the most important thing. Thanks for the reminder!

FallenAngelII
December 20th, 2006, 11:39 PM
I said that John did a lot of things that built up to war. The citrus itself (among other things, Baten's comment about the Geldars thinking everything is poisonous indicates John sent more than just citrus) was an act which lead Rodney to explain how dangerous it was, which made the Geldar conceive it as the insult it really was.

Sure, John built up his army in defense. That doesn't mean the action didn't plant seeds. It also lead to Rodney buffing up his defense. Now, if their armies had remained tiny, do you really think they could've gone out to all-scale war?

Rodney gave his people some extra commodities. How the hell would John even know Rodney was cheating unless he knew what Rodney was giving them? And his fears weren't really founded.

John feared John was giving his people weapons. Rodney didn't. His people figured it out on their own (but they had no idea of knowing it wasn't a game).

The Geldars stole coal, yes. Was this wrong? Yes. The Hallonan response was to start a full-scale war (sure, they began with just attacking the mines and taking it over peacefully. But shortly after, they marched into Geldar (with their entire army), no doubt seeking war.

You really think this is better than just capturing those invading their country?

I'm glad to see you agree with me on John's immaturity after they found out it was a game (and were desperately trying to prevent a war from breaking out!).

YodaMate
December 20th, 2006, 11:44 PM
Sorry if i'm been repetitive but i didn't read the whole thread.

What i enjoyed the most about this episode was the implications it had for the greater Pegasus galaxy. It may have come off a shade gimmicky (though from what I've read so far, people have been responding fairly positively to the ep) but it did start to fill in a big gap in Pegasus history.

So far the story goes ; Atlanteans arrive in Pegasus, they seed the galaxy with life, soon it was flourishing with "life in this form", then the Wraith come and everyone is subjected to medieval or carefully hidden modern society/tech status for the next ten thousand years. There have been lingering questions as to what the galaxy looked like prior to the Wraith and how it became like that and this ep begins to answer them.

I know they refer to the Game as an "experiment", but i suspect that's still partly conjecture on Zelenka's part. After all, Rodney had no idea it was even transmitting data. What i suspect is that the Ancients used this method all over the PG, closely monitoring the various civilisations as they developed and making slight adjustments here and there. Once they were done, they could simply pack up the satellites, remotely shut down the receivers (or beam them away) and move on to the next planet.

True, it was an infringement on free will, but i doubt the Ancients used it to control to the extent that Shep and McKay did. And on the flip side, the Ancients had a responsibility to the galaxy ; they created the human civilisations, they have essentially a parental duty to them.

As 'parents' to the Pegasus humans, there was an enormous gap to fill. How do you teach your 'children' how to live and behave and think for themselves, when you're so advanced and they are primitives ? Without turning them into mini-Ancients who have learnt everything from their parents and nothing for themselves ? This is extremely important, as each civ evolves, they become part of a greater galaxy, one that includes one of the most advanced race known to have existed. Keeping things harmonious and preventing far more primitive societies from freaking out or going to war with each other would be an incredibly hard task, and in this way the Ancients preserved harmony, striking a balance between gentle guidance whilst keeping their distance.

I imagine that slowly they would allow the subjects to make more decisions of their own, making tiny adjustments if they seemed to be becoming hostile. The system would also let them know when the time was right to reveal the existence of 'ancestors' and teach them how to use the Gate, once they could be reasonably sure that the results would be peaceful trading, not territorial or imperialist warfare. Of course, once we Earthlings started to use the tech, things went quickly downhill, which is nicely tied to the theme of our learning curve.

LoveConquers
December 21st, 2006, 12:02 AM
I said that John did a lot of things that built up to war. The citrus itself (among other things, Baten's comment about the Geldars thinking everything is poisonous indicates John sent more than just citrus) was an act which lead Rodney to explain how dangerous it was, which made the Geldar conceive it as the insult it really was.

Sure, John built up his army in defense. That doesn't mean the action didn't plant seeds. It also lead to Rodney buffing up his defense. Now, if their armies had remained tiny, do you really think they could've gone out to all-scale war?

Rodney gave his people some extra commodities. How the hell would John even know Rodney was cheating unless he knew what Rodney was giving them? And his fears weren't really founded.

John feared John was giving his people weapons. Rodney didn't. His people figured it out on their own (but they had no idea of knowing it wasn't a game).

The Geldars stole coal, yes. Was this wrong? Yes. The Hallonan response was to start a full-scale war (sure, they began with just attacking the mines and taking it over peacefully. But shortly after, they marched into Geldar (with their entire army), no doubt seeking war.

You really think this is better than just capturing those invading their country?

I'm glad to see you agree with me on John's immaturity after they found out it was a game (and were desperately trying to prevent a war from breaking out!).

Yes, I really believe that the peaceful stand-down and then defensive counter actions are better than resorting to like-minded criminal activity. They had to advance in the first place because of someone else's criminal activity. I don't believe war is good, but I do believe it sometimes becomes a necessity and believe it a better option than becoming criminals in return.
Some will argue that war is also criminal activity, and of course at some point it can be as well. But I do not see defending yourself as criminal. If someone attacks me, I will try to defend myself. And then try to put them in jail. Not the other way around. I have to be alive and around to even have the ability or option to put them in jail.
I hardly think Rodney's people would have taken arrest and imprisonment peacefully. I hardly doubt the remainder of the country would find a ransom demand peaceful either.
If I don't defend myself, I most likely will find myself in eventual entrapment with who knows how deadly an outcome. It was coal and invasion today. Who knows what it would have tomorrow. I have to believe John's people would have thought the same. If someone comes at me, I believe I have the fundamental right to protect myself.

We're obviously not going to agree, but that's ok! Thank you for further clarifying your viewpoint. While I don't agree, I do understand it better now. Thank you.

FallenAngelII
December 21st, 2006, 12:06 AM
My point is: Was the Geldar theft worthy of going to war against?

War should always be the last resort. And you should never start war pre-emptively.

LoveConquers
December 21st, 2006, 12:10 AM
My point is: Was the Geldar theft worthy of going to war against?

War should always be the last resort. And you should never start war pre-emptively.


My point is yes, it was. That theft was more than just theft. It was also an invasion. It was that which started the war, not what I believe is the basic and fundamental act of defending yourself. At the point that John's army was forced to respond, the war, IMO, had already begun.


ETA: I must go now, but thank you for a most interesting discussion! My apologies to everyone for hogging the thread. Thank you.

FallenAngelII
December 21st, 2006, 12:28 AM
My point is yes, it was. That theft was more than just theft. It was also an invasion. It was that which started the war, not what I believe is the basic and fundamental act of defending yourself. At the point that John's army was forced to respond, the war, IMO, had already begun.


ETA: I must go now, but thank you for a most interesting discussion! My apologies to everyone for hogging the thread. Thank you.
Invasion? Building an underground mine and stealing coal = Invasion?!

Am I invading France if I dig under the Paris bank and steal some of their money?! It was a 100% pacific act of theft.

LoveConquers
December 21st, 2006, 12:39 AM
Invasion? Building an underground mine and stealing coal = Invasion?!

Am I invading France if I dig under the Paris bank and steal some of their money?! It was a 100% pacific act of theft.

The leaders of one country ordering their army illegal entrance into another country with ill-intent? Yes, invasion. They had tunneled three miles into another country, with full intention of going further and stealing their resources. Yes, it is considered an invasion for one country to fly into another country's airspace or for another country's army to set boots on another country's soil without authority. This has been well-established throughout history as the cause of many wars. It was this invasion of territory that started the war, not the defense of it.
It is your opinion it was passive. I think you would be hard pressed to find a country that would feel the same about another country entering their land without sole consent, without sole mention of intention, after having already been refused the resource, and after having already had straining tensions.

And now, I truly am leaving.

caty
December 21st, 2006, 01:02 AM
He could at least have negotiated. From what I got from the episode, John got offended by Rodney's initial offer and then refused all furhter negotiation. Of course, that's Rodney's fault.

You said so yourself. John prepared his country for the worst case scenario. It was that preparation that inevitably lead to war. Had he not done it, they still be two countries in peace with some tension over a botched deal instead of wanting to rip each other's throats out.

John also inflamed it further with the gifts that he knew Rodney was allergic to (be it for fun or not).

Of course they both thought it was a game, but you must admit that had John not sent those gifts or prepared for war, which prompted Rodney to respond, the war would not have come to be.

Yes, it wasn't his fault that the war started per se. But he was one who did the big things. Plus the ill blood he kept showing around Baten when trying to negotiate a truce, always repeating how the other side was cheating and agreeing with Baten on how bad they were.

Sidenote: Not approving of everything a character does does not equal hating them. So I disapprove of his sexual adventures and what he did in this episode. Obviously I must hate him.

You are intentionally ignoring any valid point I or other posters make, because your whole argumentation just lacks common sense ;) (And no, I still won't call you 'stupid' or 'an idiot' because you have a different opinion)

What John did was a fair reaction to the build up Rodney started.
Baten himself said that the offer to negatiate from Nola was an insult, so why keep negotiating? The citrus was just an answer to Geldars insult (and you're acting like the Geldarians were allergic to Citrus... They weren't. They just didn't like it all of a sudden, because the oracle told them to. "You didn't used to" hate Citrus, Baten said so himself).
Would you keep negotiating with me if I offered you two Euros for your house?

And YOU must admit: Had Rodney not insulted the Hallonans with his serious and unfair trade offer, John would have never increased his army and it never would have come to this...
The 'would haves'... You'll never get far with argumenting with 'would haves'..

No matter how you twist the facts to make it fit to your argument, you won't convince me that it was all John's fault... It just wasn't!
They were equally at fault...

FallenAngelII
December 21st, 2006, 01:15 AM
The leaders of one country ordering their army illegal entrance into another country with ill-intent? Yes, invasion. They had tunneled three miles into another country, with full intention of going further and stealing their resources. Yes, it is considered an invasion for one country to fly into another country's airspace or for another country's army to set boots on another country's soil without authority. This has been well-established throughout history as the cause of many wars. It was this invasion of territory that started the war, not the defense of it.
It is your opinion it was passive. I think you would be hard pressed to find a country that would feel the same about another country entering their land without sole consent, without sole mention of intention, after having already been refused the resource, and after having already had straining tensions.

And now, I truly am leaving.
Do you really think they sent their army to do the tunnel digging and coal mining instead of scientists, engineers and coal miners?!

What kind of idiots sents soldiers to do that kind of jobs?!


You are intentionally ignoring any valid point I or other posters make, because your whole argumentation just lacks common sense ;) (And no, I still won't call you 'stupid' or 'an idiot' because you have a different opinion)

What John did was a fair reaction to the build up Rodney started.
Baten himself said that the offer to negatiate from Nola was an insult, so why keep negotiating? The citrus was just an answer to Geldars insult (and you're acting like the Geldarians were allergic to Citrus... They weren't. They just didn't like it all of a sudden, because the oracle told them to. "You didn't used to" hate Citrus, Baten said so himself).
Would you keep negotiating with me if I offered you two Euros for your house?

And YOU must admit: Had Rodney not insulted the Hallonans with his serious and unfair trade offer, John would have never increased his army and it never would have come to this...
The 'would haves'... You'll never get far with argumenting with 'would haves'..

No matter how you twist the facts to make it fit to your argument, you won't convince me that it was all John's fault... It just wasn't!
They were equally at fault...
John sent the citrus (and from the sound of it other things), which insulted Rodney, which the villagers took as a great insult as well. It was juvenile.

Rodney gave John a bad trade offer and he increased his army (you make it sound like the increase was a result of the trade offer). Does that sound like a logical step to you? John increased his army because Rodney gave his people technology. Instead of giving his own people technology, he just inflated his army, as if that'd be the answer.

I never said Rodney wasn't guilty. On the contrary, I said he had a part in it as well and that he did quite a few things that played a part of it.

However, all of Rodney's actions were indirect causes. All of John's were direct. Especially after they discovered it wasn't a game, what with the constant name-calling and show of animosity around Baten, including agreeing with Baten on certain things like how attacking would've been a good thing to do.

Linzi
December 21st, 2006, 01:44 AM
Do you really think they sent their army to do the tunnel digging and coal mining instead of scientists, engineers and coal miners?!

What kind of idiots sents soldiers to do that kind of jobs?!


John sent the citrus (and from the sound of it other things), which insulted Rodney, which the villagers took as a great insult as well. It was juvenile.

Rodney gave John a bad trade offer and he increased his army (you make it sound like the increase was a result of the trade offer). Does that sound like a logical step to you? John increased his army because Rodney gave his people technology. Instead of giving his own people technology, he just inflated his army, as if that'd be the answer.

I never said Rodney wasn't guilty. On the contrary, I said he had a part in it as well and that he did quite a few things that played a part of it.

However, all of Rodney's actions were indirect causes. All of John's were direct. Especially after they discovered it wasn't a game, what with the constant name-calling and show of animosity around Baten, including agreeing with Baten on certain things like how attacking would've been a good thing to do.
Many of your posts are full of embellishments of what you perceive to have gone on behind the scenes, if you stick to the facts as they were presented in the episode this much is clear:
Hallona and Geldar were neighbouring countries who got along just fine before John and Rodney started playing their game.
John built up his army is response to Rodney cheating and giving advanced technology to his country. Both men bestowed their wisdom and ethos' on their own countries. McKay's country revered him as a god, having his face on flags, foisting his dislike of citrus on his people, and teaching them that technology was vital to development etc...I'd hardly say some of those things are mature, by the way. John's people didn't even know who he was. The problems really began when the two countries were at an impasse on trade negotiations. When Geldar were dsicovered to be invading Hallona's land and trying to steal their resources the situation became desperate. That incursion is an act of war, but actually Sheppard tried really hard to dissuade his country from attacking, he told them to trade the coal for things they needed. Not once did Rodney tell Geldar to stop drilling.
However, as I've said many times, both Sheppard and McKay were playing a game! They were both responsible for shaping their countries into what they became, but they were trying to win a game, pure and simple. Both of them could have put aside their differences immediately and worked to help restore peace, but they were bickering so much this didn't happen.
The key for me though, is that it was Sheppard who came up with the plan to show both countries the error of their ways. As a soldier, he's seen war first hand, and he used that experience to make a realistic scenario showing both countries what would happen if they carried on the way they were. Thus the military man actually USES war to show how awful it is. That shows true intelligence. :)

FallenAngelII
December 21st, 2006, 02:00 AM
It's not an invasion. It's like saying if I sent ten people into your country to steal an Ipod, it's an invasion. It's not an act of war. It's an act of theft, yes. A very serious one.

Not an invasion and not an act of war.

While Rodney fostered a land of scientists and, ultimately, coal thieves, John fostered a land of warriors expecting the Geldars to attack. Then when the Geldars' theft was discovered, they went to war (against the entire country).

John tried to dissuade Baten from attacking, yes. But when Baten asked is attacking wouldn't be John's response, he just got a tight-lipped look on his face and stayed quiet.

He also kept repeating the word "cheating" again and again (in Baten's presence!) and kept bickering with Rodney (in Baten's presence!).

If I'm playing an RTS and an ally or a former ally (one I'm not currently fighting) impeached on my territory, I'd smite whoever's doing the impeaching. I'd demand compensation. But I wouldn't immediately launch a full-scale attack on their entire empire.

No one should.

Imagine the Saudi government sending 20 people to steal, oh, say, diamonds from the United States. Now imagine George W. Bush discovering it and waging war on Saudi Arabia.

caty
December 21st, 2006, 02:04 AM
Do you really think they sent their army to do the tunnel digging and coal mining instead of scientists, engineers and coal miners?!

What kind of idiots sents soldiers to do that kind of jobs?!


John sent the citrus (and from the sound of it other things), which insulted Rodney, which the villagers took as a great insult as well. It was juvenile.

Rodney gave John a bad trade offer and he increased his army (you make it sound like the increase was a result of the trade offer). Does that sound like a logical step to you? John increased his army because Rodney gave his people technology. Instead of giving his own people technology, he just inflated his army, as if that'd be the answer.

I never said Rodney wasn't guilty. On the contrary, I said he had a part in it as well and that he did quite a few things that played a part of it.

However, all of Rodney's actions were indirect causes. All of John's were direct. Especially after they discovered it wasn't a game, what with the constant name-calling and show of animosity around Baten, including agreeing with Baten on certain things like how attacking would've been a good thing to do.

You tell people all the time to read (I know how much you love emphasizing) your posts, so why don't you go back and read mine? My 'would have'-scenario was intended to show how unvalid it is, because you were using one to back up your argumentation.. I don't make it sound like John increasing his army was a result of the unfair trade offer.

You said John should have kept negotiating and I explained why it would have made no sense to keep negotiating.

Again, if you had read my previous post, you'd know that the way I see it, the increase of John's army was a response to the technological advancement of Rodneys people.. Because the Hallonans had no way of knowing what Nola was able and willing to do with her technology, they started to built up an army to defend themselves in case she was planning to send some kind of aggressive, highly technological weapon to destroy them all.. Reaction...


Many of your posts are full of embellishments of what you perceive to have gone on behind the scenes, if you stick to the facts as they were presented in the episode this much is clear:
Hallona and Geldar were neighbouring countries who got along just fine before John and Rodney started playing their game.
John built up his army is response to Rodney cheating and giving advanced technology to his country. Both men bestowed their wisdom and ethos' on their own countries. McKay's country revered him as a god, having his face on flags, foisting his dislike of citrus on his people, and teaching them that technology was vital to development etc...I'd hardly say some of those things are mature, by the way. John's people didn't even know who he was. The problems really began when the two countries were at an impasse on trade negotiations. When Geldar were dsicovered to be invading Hallona's land and trying to steal their resources the situation became desperate. That incursion is an act of war, but actually Sheppard tried really hard to dissuade his country from attacking, he told them to trade the coal for things they needed. Not once did Rodney tell Geldar to stop drilling.
However, as I've said many times, both Sheppard and McKay were playing a game! They were both responsible for shaping their countries into what they became, but they were trying to win a game, pure and simple. Both of them could have put aside their differences immediately and worked to help restore peace, but they were bickering so much this didn't happen.
The key for me though, is that it was Sheppard who came up with the plan to show both countries the error of their ways. As a soldier, he's seen war first hand, and he used that experience to make a realistic scenario showing both countries what would happen if they carried on the way they were. Thus the military man actually USES war to show how awful it is. That shows true intelligence. :)

What a well thought-out post, Linzi...

I agree 100% and I don't see a way anyone could invalidate these arguments.

FallenAngelII
December 21st, 2006, 02:18 AM
You tell people all the time to read (I know how much you love emphasizing) your posts, so why don't you go back and read mine? My 'would have'-scenario was intended to show how unvalid it is, because you were using one to back up your argumentation.. I don't make it sound like John increasing his army was a result of the unfair trade offer.

You said John should have kept negotiating and I explained why it would have made no sense to keep negotiating.

Again, if you had read my previous post, you'd know that the way I see it, the increase of John's army was a response to the technological advancement of Rodneys people.. Because the Hallonans had no way of knowing what Nola was able and willing to do with her technology, they started to built up an army to defend themselves in case she was planning to send some kind of aggressive, highly technological weapon to destroy them all.. Reaction...
The Hallonan's response to the Geldar advancement was per John's request. They didn't spontaneously double their army, that was John.

Because John had no way of knowing what Rodney's intentions were, John doubled the size of his army. And while Nola did indeed build bombs, she didn't seem keen on using them 'til the Hallonans attacked (semi-justified because of the stealing, but full-out war?) and Rodney didn't intend for them to have bombs. They figured it out on their own.

John did a lot of things that eventually lead to the war. Some of these were not intentional. But John did a lot of thing, the brunt of things (IMO) that lead to war.

While Rodney did things of his own, John did more. He especially hurt things when negotiating peace. You have yet to address his insistent nagging about cheating.

Note how I've never said that John started the war. I merely said that John did a lot of things that lead to the war taking place, however indirect and unintentional those actions might have been. While Rodney shared in the mistakes that lead to the war, John (IMO) did a lot more (and his attitude towards Rodney and the Geldarians when talking to Baten didn't exactly help either).

You said (and I quote):
"And YOU must admit: Had Rodney not insulted the Hallonans with his serious and unfair trade offer, John would have never increased his army and it never would have come to this..."

Callie
December 21st, 2006, 02:34 AM
The chest game at the end was a nice touch.

:eek: Did I miss something?! ;)

FallenAngelII
December 21st, 2006, 02:44 AM
:eek: Did I miss something?! ;)
Well, there was that one scene where John grabbed Rodney by his chest ;)

Alipeeps
December 21st, 2006, 02:45 AM
Invasion? Building an underground mine and stealing coal = Invasion?!

Am I invading France if I dig under the Paris bank and steal some of their money?! It was a 100% pacific act of theft.

If your country's government ordered you to do it and provided you the resources etc to do it then yes, it is an act of aggression - it probably would not be considered an invasion as you are just one person.


Do you really think they sent their army to do the tunnel digging and coal mining instead of scientists, engineers and coal miners?!

What kind of idiots sents soldiers to do that kind of jobs?!


John sent the citrus (and from the sound of it other things), which insulted Rodney, which the villagers took as a great insult as well. It was juvenile.

Rodney gave John a bad trade offer and he increased his army (you make it sound like the increase was a result of the trade offer). Does that sound like a logical step to you? John increased his army because Rodney gave his people technology. Instead of giving his own people technology, he just inflated his army, as if that'd be the answer.

I never said Rodney wasn't guilty. On the contrary, I said he had a part in it as well and that he did quite a few things that played a part of it.

However, all of Rodney's actions were indirect causes. All of John's were direct. Especially after they discovered it wasn't a game, what with the constant name-calling and show of animosity around Baten, including agreeing with Baten on certain things like how attacking would've been a good thing to do.

Again, you are inferring things that are by no means certain - we don't know John sent "other things" too. John sent citrus as a joke - knowing that Rodney hates citrus. He didn't necessarily know that Rodney had taught his country that citrus was dangerous and bad etc etc etc. Baten's comment about Nola's people now thinking everything is poisonous tells us that Rodney (who we know is a hypochondriac and forever worrying about stuff like that) passing on his own personality quirks to his people in the game, essentially molding them in his image!

You also keep saying that Rodney's build up of technology was entirely benevolent and that John's response (building up his military) was inappropriate and war-mongering... In the context of the game (which is what it still was at this point) Rodney was cheating by giving his people technological advancements which were far more advanced than they could ever have achieved in their natural development - as became obvious later in the episode, this behaviour was dangerous in and of itself and lead his people into technological developments that they were not ready to deal with and whose consequences they had not fully considered. (It is for precisely this reason that e.g. in Star Trek, they have the Prime Directive - interfering in the technological development of a people, particularly by providing them technology beyond their current level of development, is dangerous and more often than not leads to that civilisation destroying itself).

John's response was to build up his military - you say this was an act of aggression and why didn't he just give his people technology too? First of all - two wrongs do not make a right. Secondly, John doesn't have the technological knowledge that Rodney does to be able to teach his people about technological advancements and thirdly.. John was sticking to the rules. He responded by doing what he could within the context of the level of development of his people.. without artificially advancing them, as Rodney had, his only real available response to protect his people was to build up their defenses... that means the army and the defensive fortifications that he wanted lumber to build. The Geldars' increasing level of technological advancement was putting them in a position of superiority over the Hallonens and John had to do something to try and protect them. If he HADN'T built up his army, what would he have been able to do when the Geldars invaded his country to steal his coal? Nothing. And what would the Geldars have decided they needed and come to just take next? Where would that have led? To the Hallonens being utterly subjugated by the Geldars.


It's not an invasion. It's like saying if I sent ten people into your country to steal an Ipod, it's an invasion. It's not an act of war. It's an act of theft, yes. A very serious one.

Not an invasion and not an act of war.

Your analogy is inaccurate - you are talking about is on a small, personal scale. What we are talking about in this situation is a government-level decision to breach a country's borders and send personnel and equipment to steal that country's resources. That IS invasion and it IS an act of war. If, for example, the Danish government deliberately sent a group of people across the border into Swedish territory and had them cut down a load of trees and bring them back to Denmark, that would be considered an invasion and could be considered an act of war should the Swedish government choose to respond to it as such. Every country has the right to defend its borders and its resources - when "theft" is ordered by the government of a country against another country, that is invasion, that is an act of war. As mentioned above, Kuwait is a perfect example...



While Rodney fostered a land of scientists and, ultimately, coal thieves, John fostered a land of warriors expecting the Geldars to attack. Then when the Geldars' theft was discovered, they went to war (against the entire country).

John tried to dissuade Baten from attacking, yes. But when Baten asked is attacking wouldn't be John's response, he just got a tight-lipped look on his face and stayed quiet.

I agree that John could have tried harder to lie and convince Baten otherwise at this point but the problem is that.. it would have been a lie, and Baten knew it. Baten has been acting on John's orders for over two years and he knows John's strategies etc and he knows full well that, had this still been a game and not real, attacking the mine is exactly what John would have ordered. John's uneasy response is because he knows that Baten knows this and would not believe him if he tried to say it wouldn't....



If I'm playing an RTS and an ally or a former ally (one I'm not currently fighting) impeached on my territory, I'd smite whoever's doing the impeaching. I'd demand compensation. But I wouldn't immediately launch a full-scale attack on their entire empire.

No one should.

"Whoever's doing the impeaching" is the GOVERNMENT of your "ally or former ally". It's not just a bunch of citizens acting on their own and sneaking into your country to steal stuff - it's a government-sanctioned RAID on your country! Who else are you going to "smite", if not the leaders of that country?!

The Hallorans saw the Geldar invasion of their country and their continued refusal to stop their actions with the mine as confirmation of the fact that these people had no respect for their country's borders, for their rights as a people and would never negotiate with them - they saw attacking Geldar as the only way to make these people stop what they were doing.



Imagine the Saudi government sending 20 people to steal, oh, say, diamonds from the United States. Now imagine George W. Bush discovering it and waging war on Saudi Arabia.

Aside from the fact that Dubya would never do ANYTHING to upset his good pals the Saudis, if the government ordered 20 people to go and steal diamonds from the US then YES, it would be cause for war. As I said, Dubya would never openly go against the Saudis as he wants their support and their oil but you can bet that there would be some seriously heated manouvreing behind the scenes and there WOULD be long-term consequences!

FallenAngelII
December 21st, 2006, 02:57 AM
If your country's government ordered you to do it and provided you the resources etc to do it then yes, it is an act of aggression - it probably would not be considered an invasion as you are just one person.

Again, you are inferring things that are by no means certain - we don't know John sent "other things" too. John sent citrus as a joke - knowing that Rodney hates citrus. He didn't necessarily know that Rodney had taught his country that citrus was dangerous and bad etc etc etc. Baten's comment about Nola's people now thinking everything is poisonous tells us that Rodney (who we know is a hypochondriac and forever worrying about stuff like that) passing on his own personality quirks to his people in the game, essentially molding them in his image!

You also keep saying that Rodney's build up of technology was entirely benevolent and that John's response (building up his military) was inappropriate and war-mongering... In the context of the game (which is what it still was at this point) Rodney was cheating by giving his people technological advancements which were far more advanced than they could ever have achieved in their natural development - as became obvious later in the episode, this behaviour was dangerous in and of itself and lead his people into technological developments that they were not ready to deal with and whose consequences they had not fully considered. (It is for precisely this reason that e.g. in Star Trek, they have the Prime Directive - interfering in the technological development of a people, particularly by providing them technology beyond their current level of development, is dangerous and more often than not leads to that civilisation destroying itself).

John's response was to build up his military - you say this was an act of aggression and why didn't he just give his people technology too? First of all - two wrongs do not make a right. Secondly, John doesn't have the technological knowledge that Rodney does to be able to teach his people about technological advancements and thirdly.. John was sticking to the rules. He responded by doing what he could within the context of the level of development of his people.. without artificially advancing them, as Rodney had, his only real available response to protect his people was to build up their defenses... that means the army and the defensive fortifications that he wanted lumber to build. The Geldars' increasing level of technological advancement was putting them in a position of superiority over the Hallonens and John had to do something to try and protect them. If he HADN'T built up his army, what would he have been able to do when the Geldars invaded his country to steal his coal? Nothing. And what would the Geldars have decided they needed and come to just take next? Where would that have led? To the Hallonens being utterly subjugated by the Geldars.



Your analogy is inaccurate - you are talking about is on a small, personal scale. What we are talking about in this situation is a government-level decision to breach a country's borders and send personnel and equipment to steal that country's resources. That IS invasion and it IS an act of war. If, for example, the Danish government deliberately sent a group of people across the border into Swedish territory and had them cut down a load of trees and bring them back to Denmark, that would be considered an invasion and could be considered an act of war should the Swedish government choose to respond to it as such. Every country has the right to defend its borders and its resources - when "theft" is ordered by the government of a country against another country, that is invasion, that is an act of war. As mentioned above, Kuwait is a perfect example...



I agree that John could have tried harder to lie and convince Baten otherwise at this point but the problem is that.. it would have been a lie, and Baten knew it. Baten has been acting on John's orders for over two years and he knows John's strategies etc and he knows full well that, had this still been a game and not real, attacking the mine is exactly what John would have ordered. John's uneasy response is because he knows that Baten knows this and would not believe him if he tried to say it wouldn't....



"Whoever's doing the impeaching" is the GOVERNMENT of your "ally or former ally". It's not just a bunch of citizens acting on their own and sneaking into your country to steal stuff - it's a government-sanctioned RAID on your country! Who else are you going to "smite", if not the leaders of that country?!

The Hallorans saw the Geldar invasion of their country and their continued refusal to stop their actions with the mine as confirmation of the fact that these people had no respect for their country's borders, for their rights as a people and would never negotiate with them - they saw attacking Geldar as the only way to make these people stop what they were doing.



Aside from the fact that Dubya would never do ANYTHING to upset his good pals the Saudis, if the government ordered 20 people to go and steal diamonds from the US then YES, it would be cause for war. As I said, Dubya would never openly go against the Saudis as he wants their support and their oil but you can bet that there would be some seriously heated manouvreing behind the scenes and there WOULD be long-term consequences!
Why would Rodney program his people into thinking this and that was poisonous? And how would Baten know the Geldarans thought this and that was poisonous if John hadn't sent Rodney those things? Of course, this is speculation, but it's not baseless.

Rodney's intentions were benevolent. He gave them lots of things to make their lives easier, none of which were weapons. They, however, combined the knowledge he gave them into bombs. But Rodney did not intend this.

What, was he supposed to assume that his A.I. characters might randomly build bombs and wage war on their own?

John assumed Rodney would attack him, something Rodney (for all we know) didn't intend. That the Geldarians might ultimately attack sometime later on is just a lucky coincidence.

I still think waging full out war because they ordered resource theft is going too far. Blowing up the mine and setting an example by jailing the "invaders", yes. Full-scale all-out war? No.

You can smite a government through other means than a full scale war that you know will end badly (because while your army is bigger, theirs is more advanced).

And I really doubt Sweden would wage war on Denmark for stealing wood.

John wouldn't have had to lie. He would only have retaliated with an attack on the mine and possible war if it had been a game. But now that he knows it's real life, he wouldn't. And he could at least have tried to lie.

I don't doubt that in real life, doing something like this would have long term consequences. But no two 1st world countries (i.e. "Civilized") would wage full scale war on each other over something like this.

Linzi
December 21st, 2006, 03:03 AM
It's not an invasion. It's like saying if I sent ten people into your country to steal an Ipod, it's an invasion. It's not an act of war. It's an act of theft, yes. A very serious one.



But, a few Hallonan's weren't stealing one person's ipod, were they? They were stealing natural resources of a neighbouring country. Entering en masse without permission. Illegally entering it and illegally trying to obtain coal.
Of course that can be seen as an act of war! As has already been stated here, wars have started over similar things on this planet!
Using a few people stealing an ipod isn't the same, as the ipod belongs to one person and isn't of national significance. The coal is a valuable resource. So your analogy is ridiculous and quite inappropriate.

FallenAngelII
December 21st, 2006, 03:05 AM
QUOTE]

But, a few Hallonan's weren't stealing one person's ipod, were they? They were stealing natural resources of a neighbouring country. Entering en masse without permission. Illegally entering it and illegally trying to obtain coal.
Of course that can be seen as an act of war! As has already been stated here, wars have started over similar things on this planet!
Using a few people stealing an ipod isn't the same, as the ipod belongs to one person and isn't of national significance. The coal is a valuable resource. So your analogy is ridiculous and quite inappropriate.
The Hallonans couldn't use the coal because they didn't have the capabilities to build a mine there (or they would have, that or John and the Hallonans just didn't care about it). So it's not like they stole the crown jewels.

Still theft and still very, very bad, but you're talking about it as if they took something the Hallonans were using.

That aside, stealing coal still does not merit full-out war. Yes, it merits rataliation. But full-out war against a country you know has superior technology? That's just asking for a lose-lose scenario.

tbl
December 21st, 2006, 03:20 AM
The Hallonans couldn't use the coal because they didn't have the capabilities to build a mine there (or they would have, that or John and the Hallonans just didn't care about it). So it's not like they stole the crown jewels.

Still theft and still very, very bad, but you're talking about it as if they took something the Hallonans were using.

That aside, stealing coal still does not merit full-out war. Yes, it merits rataliation. But full-out war against a country you know has superior technology? That's just asking for a lose-lose scenario.It's not so much that they stole the coal, as invading Hallonan territory to do it. That sounds like an act of war.

caty
December 21st, 2006, 03:24 AM
The Hallonan's response to the Geldar advancement was per John's request. They didn't spontaneously double their army, that was John.

Because John had no way of knowing what Rodney's intentions were, John doubled the size of his army. And while Nola did indeed build bombs, she didn't seem keen on using them 'til the Hallonans attacked (semi-justified because of the stealing, but full-out war?) and Rodney didn't intend for them to have bombs. They figured it out on their own.

John did a lot of things that eventually lead to the war. Some of these were not intentional. But John did a lot of thing, the brunt of things (IMO) that lead to war.

While Rodney did things of his own, John did more. He especially hurt things when negotiating peace. You have yet to address his insistent nagging about cheating.

Note how I've never said that John started the war. I merely said that John did a lot of things that lead to the war taking place, however indirect and unintentional those actions might have been. While Rodney shared in the mistakes that lead to the war, John (IMO) did a lot more (and his attitude towards Rodney and the Geldarians when talking to Baten didn't exactly help either).

You said (and I quote):
"And YOU must admit: Had Rodney not insulted the Hallonans with his serious and unfair trade offer, John would have never increased his army and it never would have come to this..."

How often do I have to repeat myself?? I used that example to show you how invalid
a 'what if' or 'would have' - scenario is for any argumentation... Maybe I could have made it clearer in my original post, but I explained what I intended with this argument in my next post which again, you don't seem to want to read.

Yes, maybe John should have tried more to convince Baten that an attack wasn't neccessary.. But Baten has asked him to give an honest answer and that's what he did. As Linzi pointed out earlier.. Baten would have known if he had lied.

FallenAngelII
December 21st, 2006, 03:28 AM
How often do I have to repeat myself?? I used that example to show you how invalid
a 'what if' or 'would have' - scenario is for any argumentation... Maybe I could have made it clearer in my original post, but I explained what I intended with this argument in my next post which again, you don't seem to want to read.

Yes, maybe John should have tried more to convince Baten that an attack wasn't neccessary.. But Baten has asked him to give an honest answer and that's what he did. As Linzi pointed out earlier.. Baten would have known if he had lied.
So your entire post was a "What if"? Then let's forget about it altogether.

And in real life John would've attacked a country with superior technology over coaltheft? I'm not arguing against attacking the mine. I'm arguing against the further attack.

Of course, John had no opinion on that. I'm challenging the claim that John would've agreed to full-scale war.


It's not so much that they stole the coal, as invading Hallonan territory to do it. That sounds like an act of war.
Yes, but was it the right or smartest thing to launch a full-scale attack because of it?

caty
December 21st, 2006, 03:29 AM
Rodney's intentions were benevolent. He gave them lots of things to make their lives easier, none of which were weapons. They, however, combined the knowledge he gave them into bombs. But Rodney did not intend this.

What, was he supposed to assume that his A.I. characters might randomly build bombs and wage war on their own?


You keep making the excuse that Rodney didn't teach them to built a bomb. and that they figured it out on their own... Do you honestly think that Rodney is so naive as to give them the resources to build a bomb without actually realizing what they could do with it? Rodney knows how to build a bomb, so he knows what's needed for that..
Once you have the resources, it's not very hard to figure out how to build a common bomb, Rodney must have seen the possibility..

He was just so surprised by it, because they turned out to be real people with real brains...

Alipeeps
December 21st, 2006, 03:30 AM
John assumed Rodney would attack him, something Rodney (for all we know) didn't intend. That the Geldarians might ultimately attack sometime later on is just a lucky coincidence.

I still think waging full out war because they ordered resource theft is going too far. Blowing up the mine and setting an example by jailing the "invaders", yes. Full-scale all-out war? No.

You can smite a government through other means than a full scale war that you know will end badly (because while your army is bigger, theirs is more advanced).

[snip]

I don't doubt that in real life, doing something like this would have long term consequences. But no two 1st world countries (i.e. "Civilized") would wage full scale war on each other over something like this.

And Rodney did attack him - he ordered an invasion of John's country.

Given the level of development of the people concerned - what other option is there? The government refuses to negotiate with you. They invade your country and steal your resources. What other option do you have to make them stop other than military retaliation?

Btw, if you seriously think attacking the mine, taking prisoners and then holding them to ransom would decrease tensions and bring an end to the situation without leading to war then boy, it must be nice there on whatever planet you're living on... ;)

Probably not because a) we would try to negotiate first, b) the international community would also get involved and, most importantly, c) we are fully aware of the devastating consequences of war and the the fact that it won't solve our problems so easily. However, we are talking here about civlisations at a stage of development equivalent to the middle ages. Have you read history books? D'you have any idea how many wars there were in those times?!


The Hallonans couldn't use the coal because they didn't have the capabilities to build a mine there (or they would have, that or John and the Hallonans just didn't care about it). So it's not like they stole the crown jewels.

Still theft and still very, very bad, but you're talking about it as if they took something the Hallonans were using.

That aside, stealing coal still does not merit full-out war. Yes, it merits rataliation. But full-out war against a country you know has superior technology? That's just asking for a lose-lose scenario.

Sooo.... it's okay for them to invade the country and steal it's natural resources because they weren't using it anyway? That's one heck of a slippery slope you're treading there my friend. What next? Kidnap their children and bring them to Geldar to be educated? Well, the Hallorans aren't "using" their children properly are they? They're not teaching them all the wonderful technological advancements that the Geldars have.. they're wasting these children's abilities... surely they'd be a much more useful, important resource to Geldar?

In the context of this level of development - middle ages - then yes, stealing a country's resources does merit full-out war. Wars were started over far less in those times in our own history. As for the argument that we shouldn't defend our country's rights because the aggressor country is more technologically advanced? Well a) should they just give up and let the Geldars do whatever they want to them then? b) the whole reason the country built up their army was so that they would have a better chance of defending themselves against a more advanced country and c) your argument thus far has been that the technological advancement of Geldar was entirely benevolent and in no way threatening to the Hallorans and that John's response to it (building up the army) was excessive and war-mongering but now you're effectively saying that the Geldars' technological advancement should have acted as a deterrant to keep the Hallorans in their place and make sure they don't get uppity enough to try and defend themselves against a "superior" enemy. Make up your mind please.. you can't have it both ways...

FallenAngelII
December 21st, 2006, 03:31 AM
You keep making the excuse that Rodney didn't teach them to built a bomb. and that they figured it out on their own... Do you honestly think that Rodney is so naive as to give them the resources to build a bomb without actually realizing what they could do with it? Rodney knows how to build a bomb, so he knows what's needed for that..
Once you have the resources, it's not very hard to figure out how to build a common bomb, Rodney must have seen the possibility..

He was just so surprised by it, because they turned out to be real people with real brains...
That's... the... point!

To Rodney and John, it was game. Are you blaming Rodney for not assuming the people he was controlling were real people who could combine his teachings into a bomb?!

Rodney's intentions were benevolent. We have no indication of him teaching them how to make weapons. They combined everything he taught them into that.

caty
December 21st, 2006, 03:33 AM
So your entire post was a "What if"? Then let's forget about it altogether.


I'm quoting my own post now so you can see that the only what-if scenario in my post was the one we are talking about...
The other 'if' in my post was a question deirected at you...
Here, I'll even highlight it for you...


You are intentionally ignoring any valid point I or other posters make, because your whole argumentation just lacks common sense ;) (And no, I still won't call you 'stupid' or 'an idiot' because you have a different opinion)

What John did was a fair reaction to the build up Rodney started.
Baten himself said that the offer to negatiate from Nola was an insult, so why keep negotiating? The citrus was just an answer to Geldars insult (and you're acting like the Geldarians were allergic to Citrus... They weren't. They just didn't like it all of a sudden, because the oracle told them to. "You didn't used to" hate Citrus, Baten said so himself).
Would you keep negotiating with me if I offered you two Euros for your house?

And YOU must admit: Had Rodney not insulted the Hallonans with his serious and unfair trade offer, John would have never increased his army and it never would have come to this...
The 'would haves'... You'll never get far with argumenting with 'would haves'..

No matter how you twist the facts to make it fit to your argument, you won't convince me that it was all John's fault... It just wasn't!
They were equally at fault...

caty
December 21st, 2006, 03:38 AM
That's... the... point!

To Rodney and John, it was game. Are you blaming Rodney for not assuming the people he was controlling were real people who could combine his teachings into a bomb?!

Rodney's intentions were benevolent. We have no indication of him teaching them how to make weapons. They combined everything he taught them into that.

Hold on... I think only one person here is trying to blame a single person.. And that would be (oh surprise) YOU!

I'm not blaming anyone, Rodney didn't know they were real people, John didn't.. Rodney didn't know they could build a bomb, John didn't know his army would go into Geldar...

You're the one that's putting the blame on people, not me!
I'm just trying to make you understand that they were equally at fault and what Rodney did wasn't any better than what John did!

Linzi
December 21st, 2006, 03:44 AM
The Hallonans couldn't use the coal because they didn't have the capabilities to build a mine there (or they would have, that or John and the Hallonans just didn't care about it). So it's not like they stole the crown jewels.

Still theft and still very, very bad, but you're talking about it as if they took something the Hallonans were using.

That aside, stealing coal still does not merit full-out war. Yes, it merits rataliation. But full-out war against a country you know has superior technology? That's just asking for a lose-lose scenario.
The coal is valuable to Hallona for trading, I should have thought that's obvious. Just because a country doesn't have the technology to use a valuable resource does not give another country the right to steal it. And, again, the incursion onto Hallona could easily be seen as an act of war. When relations are tense that sort of agressive move can and has easily lead to war and violence.Also, let's not forget the Hallonans would be able to use coal in their future. What's the point in giving it away if one day they will need it?
Retaliation is ok? And that doesn't lead to war? Really? Since when? Surely that was the whole subliminal message here. Or maybe not so subliminal!!! If you refuse to compromise, you will never get along, and agression is the most likely way forward. Both side saw, when Sheppard's plan was realised, that the cost of war is huge, and that compromise is essential to get some of what you both want.
Lastly, you said the coal is 'not the crown jewels'. No, it's much more valuable than that. Jewels can be replaced, coal cannot.

Linzi
December 21st, 2006, 03:57 AM
By the way, is it Hallorans or Hallonans? I'm confused!!!! :)

FallenAngelII
December 21st, 2006, 04:02 AM
I'm quoting my own post now so you can see that the only what-if scenario in my post was the one we are talking about...
The other 'if' in my post was a question deirected at you...
Here, I'll even highlight it for you...
Yes, but in that highlight, you're indicating that John's doubling his army was more connected to Rodney's bad offer than to his scientic advancement of the populus (which John specifically stated was the real reason why he doubled his army).


Hold on... I think only one person here is trying to blame a single person.. And that would be (oh surprise) YOU!

I'm not blaming anyone, Rodney didn't know they were real people, John didn't.. Rodney didn't know they could build a bomb, John didn't know his army would go into Geldar...

You're the one that's putting the blame on people, not me!
I'm just trying to make you understand that they were equally at fault and what Rodney did wasn't any better than what John did!
Never once have I said John's entirely at fault. In almost every single post, I've pointed out that Rodney was at fault as well, but it was John who pushed for the more aggresive approaches to things, which eventually lead to war.


The coal is valuable to Hallona for trading, I should have thought that's obvious. Just because a country doesn't have the technology to use a valuable resource does not give another country the right to steal it. And, again, the incursion onto Hallona could easily be seen as an act of war. When relations are tense that sort of agressive move can and has easily lead to war and violence.Also, let's not forget the Hallonans would be able to use coal in their future. What's the point in giving it away if one day they will need it?
Retaliation is ok? And that doesn't lead to war? Really? Since when? Surely that was the whole subliminal message here. Or maybe not so subliminal!!! If you refuse to compromise, you will never get along, and agression is the most likely way forward. Both side saw, when Sheppard's plan was realised, that the cost of war is huge, and that compromise is essential to get some of what you both want.
Lastly, you said the coal is 'not the crown jewels'. No, it's much more valuable than that. Jewels can be replaced, coal cannot.
Note where I repeat that it's theft and how it's very, very bad. Still, you made it sound like the Geldarians stole something vital to the Hallonans.

While coal is important to them, they weren't using that coal. There's a difference between stealing coal that's buried under your house and coal that's in your house especially if you either can't get it yourself or just don't want to.

It's still equally wrong. However, the consequences to the owner are different.

The point here is that both sides are at fault for being aggresive. But it was the Hallonans who went to war on the issue of stolen coal they weren't using. Sure, the Geldarians had the nerve to steal it, but it didn't merit war.

They should've taken things slowly, retaliate for the mine. Blow it up, chase the Geldarians away. War should always be the last resort.

Alipeeps
December 21st, 2006, 04:05 AM
By the way, is it Hallorans or Hallonans? I'm confused!!!! :)

Oh I think that's me being thick honey - I think I've typed Hallorans a few things when it should have been Hallonans! :lol:

psychofilly
December 21st, 2006, 05:19 AM
Sorry if i'm been repetitive but i didn't read the whole thread.

What i enjoyed the most about this episode was the implications it had for the greater Pegasus galaxy. It may have come off a shade gimmicky (though from what I've read so far, people have been responding fairly positively to the ep) but it did start to fill in a big gap in Pegasus history.

So far the story goes ; Atlanteans arrive in Pegasus, they seed the galaxy with life, soon it was flourishing with "life in this form", then the Wraith come and everyone is subjected to medieval or carefully hidden modern society/tech status for the next ten thousand years. There have been lingering questions as to what the galaxy looked like prior to the Wraith and how it became like that and this ep begins to answer them.

I know they refer to the Game as an "experiment", but i suspect that's still partly conjecture on Zelenka's part. After all, Rodney had no idea it was even transmitting data. What i suspect is that the Ancients used this method all over the PG, closely monitoring the various civilisations as they developed and making slight adjustments here and there. Once they were done, they could simply pack up the satellites, remotely shut down the receivers (or beam them away) and move on to the next planet.

True, it was an infringement on free will, but i doubt the Ancients used it to control to the extent that Shep and McKay did. And on the flip side, the Ancients had a responsibility to the galaxy ; they created the human civilisations, they have essentially a parental duty to them.

As 'parents' to the Pegasus humans, there was an enormous gap to fill. How do you teach your 'children' how to live and behave and think for themselves, when you're so advanced and they are primitives ? Without turning them into mini-Ancients who have learnt everything from their parents and nothing for themselves ? This is extremely important, as each civ evolves, they become part of a greater galaxy, one that includes one of the most advanced race known to have existed. Keeping things harmonious and preventing far more primitive societies from freaking out or going to war with each other would be an incredibly hard task, and in this way the Ancients preserved harmony, striking a balance between gentle guidance whilst keeping their distance.

I imagine that slowly they would allow the subjects to make more decisions of their own, making tiny adjustments if they seemed to be becoming hostile. The system would also let them know when the time was right to reveal the existence of 'ancestors' and teach them how to use the Gate, once they could be reasonably sure that the results would be peaceful trading, not territorial or imperialist warfare. Of course, once we Earthlings started to use the tech, things went quickly downhill, which is nicely tied to the theme of our learning curve.

I love this post, and it really touches on some things I was thinking while getting spoiled and then watching the episode, only for me it goes back to the original question I asked before seeing the episode.

I totally get what you are saying but I'm seeing it from the other side.

Whereas you see wise ancients guiding races as they develop, I'm seeing the seeds for the proto-ori. Of course this is all way out there conjecture, but what I'm feeling from the storyline is that We have seen two basic paths towards ascension. We have ascension through spiritual enlightenment and ascension through scientific enlightenment.

The interesting thing to me is that those who acheived ascension through spiritual means, became the non interference, let the humans figure it out types (and by default for scientific advancement), and those that ascended through scientific enlightenment may have in fact became the uber-controling spiritually opressive Ori. While it's only a possibility, the seeds are there, and this is just another piece that can be clicked into place. If some of the ancients were already controlling every aspect of human development (down to the hairstyles) then imagine what that control would be like when they cease being human oracles and really become gods.

Oh yeah, and now they can draw actual power from their control. Which leads to institutionalized and opressive religious control. It would require more subtlety than I would generally give the writers credit for, but if SGA is going to be carrying on the mythology of SG1, the Ori, will surely at least be touched upon, and if we find out the Ancients and Ori are the equivalent of Gnostics and Early Roman Catholics, it might be an interesting way to bring the Ori into the mix without having an "Ori Invade" storyling.

FallenAngelII
December 21st, 2006, 05:25 AM
I love this post, and it really touches on some things I was thinking while getting spoiled and then watching the episode, only for me it goes back to the original question I asked before seeing the episode.

I totally get what you are saying but I'm seeing it from the other side.

Whereas you see wise ancients guiding races as they develop, I'm seeing the seeds for the proto-ori. Of course this is all way out there conjecture, but what I'm feeling from the storyline is that We have seen two basic paths towards ascension. We have ascension through spiritual enlightenment and ascension through scientific enlightenment.

The interesting thing to me is that those who acheived ascension through spiritual means, became the non interference, let the humans figure it out types (and by default for scientific advancement), and those that ascended through scientific enlightenment may have in fact became the uber-controling spiritually opressive Ori. While it's only a possibility, the seeds are there, and this is just another piece that can be clicked into place. If some of the ancients were already controlling every aspect of human development (down to the hairstyles) then imagine what that control would be like when they cease being human oracles and really become gods.

Oh yeah, and now they can draw actual power from their control. Which leads to institutionalized and opressive religious control. It would require more subtlety than I would generally give the writers credit for, but if SGA is going to be carrying on the mythology of SG1, the Ori, will surely at least be touched upon, and if we find out the Ancients and Ori are the equivalent of Gnostics and Early Roman Catholics, it might be an interesting way to bring the Ori into the mix without having an "Ori Invade" storyling.
This was probably an Ancient experiment they tinkled with late in their time. They were probably running out of time and wanted to advance some races really fast either to have them help fight the Wraith or to leave something behind after they'd left.

And I don't know what you're talking about. The Ori were the ones who took the religious route while the Ancients took the scientific one.

Ltcolshepjumper
December 21st, 2006, 05:34 AM
I love this post, and it really touches on some things I was thinking while getting spoiled and then watching the episode, only for me it goes back to the original question I asked before seeing the episode.

I totally get what you are saying but I'm seeing it from the other side.

Whereas you see wise ancients guiding races as they develop, I'm seeing the seeds for the proto-ori. Of course this is all way out there conjecture, but what I'm feeling from the storyline is that We have seen two basic paths towards ascension. We have ascension through spiritual enlightenment and ascension through scientific enlightenment.

The interesting thing to me is that those who acheived ascension through spiritual means, became the non interference, let the humans figure it out types (and by default for scientific advancement), and those that ascended through scientific enlightenment may have in fact became the uber-controling spiritually opressive Ori. While it's only a possibility, the seeds are there, and this is just another piece that can be clicked into place. If some of the ancients were already controlling every aspect of human development (down to the hairstyles) then imagine what that control would be like when they cease being human oracles and really become gods.

Oh yeah, and now they can draw actual power from their control. Which leads to institutionalized and opressive religious control. It would require more subtlety than I would generally give the writers credit for, but if SGA is going to be carrying on the mythology of SG1, the Ori, will surely at least be touched upon, and if we find out the Ancients and Ori are the equivalent of Gnostics and Early Roman Catholics, it might be an interesting way to bring the Ori into the mix without having an "Ori Invade" storyling.

Uh, the Ancients didn't become the Ori. In fact, the Ancients hadn't even gone to Pegasus before the split. The Ancients used this because they were probably impatient, and at this time they probably weren't as arrogant. But, this may shed some light on how the Wraith were able to advance so quickly.

psychofilly
December 21st, 2006, 05:54 AM
Uh, the Ancients didn't become the Ori. In fact, the Ancients hadn't even gone to Pegasus before the split. The Ancients used this because they were probably impatient, and at this time they probably weren't as arrogant. But, this may shed some light on how the Wraith were able to advance so quickly.

Right, the ancients didn't become the Ori, but the Ori were originally Alterrans before they ascended, just like the Ancients. Also, do we *know* when they split? I think they split after they ascended, but I haven't re-watched the episodes that introduced the Ori, so I could be wrong.



And I don't know what you're talking about. The Ori were the ones who took the religious route while the Ancients took the scientific one.

Exactly, but after they ascended. That's what I'm saying. We know Oma preaches spiritual enlightenment, not science. Teer and her followers ascended through spiritual enlightenment, not scientific. It seems like they become nuetral to spirituality after ascension (which fosters scientific growth), whereas the Ori, actively push spirituality/religion after they have ascended. We do not know how the Ori originally ascended yet. My assertation is that they somehow "cheated" and ascended scientifically and then were unable to stop interfering after they ascended because they were not spiritually mature.

Does that clear it up for you? I'm not stating this is absolute fact or anything, just a direction that I could see the writers taking if they chose to bring the Ori into the Atlantis storyline. I'm just picking up threads and extrapolating.


ETA: The coal certainly is vital to the Hallonan's even if they lack the technology to use it. As a trade item it's extemely valueable. It could provide jobs (mining) and be traded for recources (John's much needed lumber).

While I'm not sure if Rodney's scientific advancements in and of themselves were cheating (aside from John's perception that they were) Rodney does state within the episode that the parameters of the game allowed for advancement. It just put a cap on how fast. So it's a grey area. We don't know if Rodney's advancement rate was truly outside the parameters set up by the ancients. (He didn't seem to think so).

However, mining the coal out from under Hallona was cheating, and an invasion.

Linzi
December 21st, 2006, 06:04 AM
Oh I think that's me being thick honey - I think I've typed Hallorans a few things when it should have been Hallonans! :lol:
I thought I'd got it wrong! I like Halloran's better than Hallonan's! :lol:

FallenAngelII
December 21st, 2006, 06:05 AM
Right, the ancients didn't become the Ori, but the Ori were originally Alterrans before they ascended, just like the Ancients. Also, do we *know* when they split? I think they split after they ascended, but I haven't re-watched the episodes that introduced the Ori, so I could be wrong.

Exactly, but after they ascended. That's what I'm saying. We know Oma preaches spiritual enlightenment, not science. Teer and her followers ascended through spiritual enlightenment, not scientific. It seems like they become nuetral to spirituality after ascension (which fosters scientific growth), whereas the Ori, actively push spirituality/religion after they have ascended. We do not know how the Ori originally ascended yet. My assertation is that they somehow "cheated" and ascended scientifically and then were unable to stop interfering after they ascended because they were not spiritually mature.

Does that clear it up for you? I'm not stating this is absolute fact or anything, just a direction that I could see the writers taking if they chose to bring the Ori into the Atlantis storyline. I'm just picking up threads and extrapolating.
So we're all African because man orginated from Africa?

The Ancients left the Ori galaxy tens of millions of years ago. Unless they were Ascending already back then (and then still needed to research it in the Milky Way and Pegasus), no.

The reason why Oma built that temple was to test people, to see if they were worthy of Ascension. What, is she supposed to wander the galaxy looking for random scientific geniouses to Ascend?

The morons in "Epiphany" had been stuck there for, and I quote, "generations" (meaning a few years of real life). With all of the in-breeding that was no doubt involved (just look at how few they were!), it's no wonder they probably didn't know jack about science.

None of this matters, anyway. Oma teaches spirituality to test one's purity (and she stopped doing that in "Maternal Instinct" option to instead wait for someone to almost die, pounce and tell them to "Release their burden".

The Cloister was created to keep people safe from the Wraith. Meditating unlocks your brain. So that's what they do to Ascend.

However, the Ancients as a whole pursued science. Some Ascended, others did not.

Ltcolshepjumper
December 21st, 2006, 06:12 AM
Right, the ancients didn't become the Ori, but the Ori were originally Alterrans before they ascended, just like the Ancients. Also, do we *know* when they split? I think they split after they ascended, but I haven't re-watched the episodes that introduced the Ori, so I could be wrong.



Exactly, but after they ascended. That's what I'm saying. We know Oma preaches spiritual enlightenment, not science. Teer and her followers ascended through spiritual enlightenment, not scientific. It seems like they become nuetral to spirituality after ascension (which fosters scientific growth), whereas the Ori, actively push spirituality/religion after they have ascended. We do not know how the Ori originally ascended yet. My assertation is that they somehow "cheated" and ascended scientifically and then were unable to stop interfering after they ascended because they were not spiritually mature.

Does that clear it up for you? I'm not stating this is absolute fact or anything, just a direction that I could see the writers taking if they chose to bring the Ori into the Atlantis storyline. I'm just picking up threads and extrapolating.

Well, we know that unascended ancients split and came to the milky way. We also know that true ascension doe not come through science. We can also assume that not every ancient was a scientist and that many ancients were trying to reach ascension.

I think they split was over the fact that the unascended Ori pursued ascension like a religion, probably acting similar to the way the Ori's followers view ascension. The Ancients' goal as a race was probably not to ascend, which would probably infuriate the Ori. Now individaully some ancients wanted to ascend, but none of them pursued it like a religion. Now the Ori probably weren't the evil manipulative type, but they did hate the Ancients and were probably angered even more when they ascended.

I have a feeling that most of the Ori ascended before the ancients left the milky way, which could be a span of an untold number of years. I assume that many ancients also ascended, shielding their galaxy from the Ori. Now most of these ascended ancients were probably civilian ancients.

Since all the Ori probably ascended, the Ori galaxy was empty, so they would have wanted to pass on their religious teachings and beliefs about enlightenment. So they created people. And this is where their power corrupted them of course. They soon wanted to be worshipped, singled out "their enlightenment" as the only true path, and taught hatred of the ancients, lying when promising them ascension, and the rest is history. Wow. That was long.

Cameron Mitchel
December 21st, 2006, 06:12 AM
Right, the ancients didn't become the Ori, but the Ori were originally Alterrans before they ascended, just like the Ancients. Also, do we *know* when they split? I think they split after they ascended, but I haven't re-watched the episodes that introduced the Ori, so I could be wrong.



Exactly, but after they ascended. That's what I'm saying. We know Oma preaches spiritual enlightenment, not science. Teer and her followers ascended through spiritual enlightenment, not scientific. It seems like they become nuetral to spirituality after ascension (which fosters scientific growth), whereas the Ori, actively push spirituality/religion after they have ascended. We do not know how the Ori originally ascended yet. My assertation is that they somehow "cheated" and ascended scientifically and then were unable to stop interfering after they ascended because they were not spiritually mature.

Does that clear it up for you? I'm not stating this is absolute fact or anything, just a direction that I could see the writers taking if they chose to bring the Ori into the Atlantis storyline. I'm just picking up threads and extrapolating.


ETA: The coal certainly is vital to the Hallonan's even if they lack the technology to use it. As a trade item it's extemely valueable. It could provide jobs (mining) and be traded for recources (John's much needed lumber).

While I'm not sure if Rodney's scientific advancements in and of themselves were cheating (aside from John's perception that they were) Rodney does state within the episode that the parameters of the game allowed for advancement. It just put a cap on how fast. So it's a grey area. We don't know if Rodney's advancement rate was truly outside the parameters set up by the ancients. (He didn't seem to think so).

However, mining the coal out from under Hallona was cheating, and an invasion.
Uh, I don't know if anyone pointed this out, but no, they didn't split after they ascended. No alterran (current ancient) or Ori ascended before the split. The ancients split and went to the MW galaxy, the Ori stayed. Their race was already on a physiological path to ascension, so it is infact likely that ascension was still a goal of both races, and that they both worked toward ascension and one day ascended. But, I know the split didn't happen after they ascended. It was before.

Cameron Mitchel
December 21st, 2006, 06:14 AM
Well, we know that unascended ancients split and came to the milky way. We also know that true ascension doe not come through science. We can also assume that not every ancient was a scientist and that many ancients were trying to reach ascension.

I think they split was over the fact that the unascended Ori pursued ascension like a religion, probably acting similar to the way the Ori's followers view ascension. The Ancients' goal as a race was probably not to ascend, which would probably infuriate the Ori. Now individaully some ancients wanted to ascend, but none of them pursued it like a religion. Now the Ori probably weren't the evil manipulative type, but they did hate the Ancients and were probably angered even more when they ascended.

I have a feeling that most of the Ori ascended before the ancients left the milky way, which could be a span of an untold number of years. I assume that many ancients also ascended, shielding their galaxy from the Ori. Now most of these ascended ancients were probably civilian ancients.

Since all the Ori probably ascended, the Ori galaxy was empty, so they would have wanted to pass on their teachings and beliefs about religion. So they created people. And this is where their power corrupted them of course. They sooon wanted to be worshipped, singled out "their enlightenment" as the only true path, and taught hatred of the ancients, lying when promising them ascension, and the rest is history. Wow. That was long.
Yes, the Ori seeded people (with their ascended powers since they didn't have the n on-interference rule), and those people were not Alterran. And, thus they did in fact create the people, but they weren't gods.

Elinor
December 21st, 2006, 06:52 AM
Well, that wasn't an 'OMG...that was fab' episode but, hey, even an average episode of Atlantis is still entertaining!!

I LOVE the Shep/McKay friendship (the laid back guy and the highly strung guy...what a great idea to have those two team up as the bestest of friends!) and even though the banter didn't quite have the sparkle as say 'Echoes', there still were moments that made me smile. Loved the bit where Shep called McKay's country 'Gelding'! S'funny!

The chess scene at the end was great to!

:)

FallenAngelII
December 21st, 2006, 07:00 AM
Neither spirituality nor science gives Ascension, though both will help you on the way.

You can Ascend simply through genetics. Evolve to the right state and then "release your burden" (lower your brain function to below 3 Hz) and voila.

Mitchell82
December 21st, 2006, 07:20 AM
FallenAngel I must agree with all the other posters here. They were illegally taking coal from another country by digging under their land. It would definatly be considerd an invasion when Geldar was unwilling to negotiate.

FallenAngelII
December 21st, 2006, 07:23 AM
FallenAngel I must agree with all the other posters here. They were illegally taking coal from another country by digging under their land. It would definatly be considerd an invasion when Geldar was unwilling to negotiate.
And if you were in charge, you'd launch a full-scale war against a nation you knew was much more scientifically advanced, thus launching both your countries into a war that will inevitably have lots of casualties, if anyone survies, at all?

Ltcolshepjumper
December 21st, 2006, 07:30 AM
I think you still have to look at it from Sheppard and Mckay's views before they knew it wasn't a game. In a real life situation, no, going to war over unused coal wouldn't be wise. But, in a game situation, especially in games like "the game", anyone would wage war, especially if they thought it was just a game.

Alipeeps
December 21st, 2006, 07:33 AM
And if you were in charge, you'd launch a full-scale war against a nation you knew was much more scientifically advanced, thus launching both your countries into a war that will inevitably have lots of casualties, if anyone survies, at all?

But that decision was not taken or supported by Sheppard and is therefore irrelevant to your suggestion that Sheppard's behaviour was "war-mongering" or more responsible for the build up to war...

Luz
December 21st, 2006, 07:36 AM
Sometimes I don't get everything they say on the show (foreign language) and I didn't have time to read a transcript yet.

Bye, A.
Same thing happens to me, I understand english pretty well, but Sheppard mumbles, McKay babbles a lot, and let's not get started with Zlenka, half the time Ionly understand what he says until after I've gotten hold of the subs. The only two people I understand perfectly are Elizabeth, Teyla, and Ronon because mostly he speaks very little or just grumbles. :P

FallenAngelII
December 21st, 2006, 07:41 AM
But that decision was not taken or supported by Sheppard and is therefore irrelevant to your suggestion that Sheppard's behaviour was "war-mongering" or more responsible for the build up to war...
I'm having two discussions here:
1) Whether John's behavior was overzealous and war-mongering
2) Whether the Hallonans should have gone to war or not

I have never once claimed John deliberately and directly started the war after finding out it was a game.

But while they were still playing, he was preparing for war simply on the notion that Rodney was buffing up his people's science.

Alipeeps
December 21st, 2006, 07:46 AM
I'm having two discussions here:
1) Whether John's behavior was overzealous and war-mongering
2) Whether the Hallonans should have gone to war or not

I have never once claimed John deliberately and directly started the war after finding out it was a game.

But while they were still playing, he was preparing for war simply on the notion that Rodney was buffing up his people's science.

Really? It all sounds like one and the same argument to me - i think you're the one getting mixed up.

Never once suggested that you were claiming that.

No, he wasn't. Rodney used technology (technology that was far to advanced for the level of development of his "team") to try to put his country in a position of superiority, of power, over John's. John responded by doing what he could, within the rules of the game, to protect his people and bring them back to an equal footing - given the level of development of his people, his main option was to increase their military strength.

I seriously doubt either Rodney or Joh were ever considering war as an option at that point!

P.S. Rodney wasn't just "buffing up his people's science" - he was giving them access to technology that they were 100s of years away from by natural development.

Luz
December 21st, 2006, 07:47 AM
And if you were in charge, you'd launch a full-scale war against a nation you knew was much more scientifically advanced, thus launching both your countries into a war that will inevitably have lots of casualties, if anyone survies, at all?

Since they both thought it was a game, in the context of the game no real lives would have been lost, again *since they thought it was a game*, and neither of them were purposefully putting people's lives in danger. Must have been like when you're playing and have ten lives and lose them in the game, you know you're not really dying.
In a game people take risks they wouldn't take in real life.

FallenAngelII
December 21st, 2006, 07:57 AM
Really? It all sounds like one and the same argument to me - i think you're the one getting mixed up.

Never once suggested that you were claiming that.

No, he wasn't. Rodney used technology (technology that was far to advanced for the level of development of his "team") to try to put his country in a position of superiority, of power, over John's. John responded by doing what he could, within the rules of the game, to protect his people and bring them back to an equal footing - given the level of development of his people, his main option was to increase their military strength.

I seriously doubt either Rodney or Joh were ever considering war as an option at that point!

P.S. Rodney wasn't just "buffing up his people's science" - he was giving them access to technology that they were 100s of years away from by natural development.
I don't think Rodney ever, ever planned on attacking John's country. So Rodney's country was going to become really prosperous through technology and be superior to John's. Obviously he's planning war and John has to double his army!

I'm not saying John was stupid for doing it. But other people would just have given their own people technology or not bothered.

Because, hey, Rodney was playing the Sims 2, not Starcraft.

psychofilly
December 21st, 2006, 08:12 AM
Yes, the Ori seeded people (with their ascended powers since they didn't have the n on-interference rule), and those people were not Alterran. And, thus they did in fact create the people, but they weren't gods.

I think it's pretty clear from what everyone is saying that the Alterrans are both Ancient and Ori. They split some untold number of years ago, and the Ancients fled to the milky way.

Now, can anyone refresh my memory Did the Alterrans go to the MW, learn to ascend, then some of the unascended Alterrans go to Pegasus a million years ago (as shown in Rising), thus bringing ancients there? So we have the possible Alterran originating Ori galaxy, the Milky Way and Pegasus (or did the Alterrans evolve in Pegasus and then some go to the Ori Galaxy?)

The reason I ask is because, according to the gateworld omnipedia/episode guides, we have two different versions. We have Vala and Daniel making suppositions, and the Doci saying that they seeded life in the Ori galaxy, but then you have the heretics (who were killed) saying they have evidence that their evolution preceeded the Ori.

If they are indeed correct, the the Ori didn't seed anything. They hijacked either an independant human evolution or human races that the Ancients/Alterrans had already seeded. It's this inconsistancy that has me wondering if the Ori somehow came after the first Ancients started ascending. (Which the onipedia actually supports. Ascension is an ongoing process. Certainly blocks of people do it, but true ascension is very personal, and I'm sure it happened in fits and spurts, especially at the beginning).

Sources:

Among the artifacts Daniel discovers a book detailing the history of the Alterans, a race that made a home called Avalon and built many "astrea porta" -- the Stargates. He believes this book contains the first evidence that the Ancients did not originate in the Milky Way Galaxy, but instead came here from somewhere else entirely. Nearby, Lieutenant Marks uncovers an odd-shaped Ancient device.

The villager who spoke with Daniel and Vala at the service arrives at their home, worried and curious as to why they did not meet him. Daniel explains the situation, and the man reveals that Harrid had suspected the devices were for communication purposes. Their secret group is comprised of historians who uncovered the stones at a dig site. They have gathered evidence that proves humans predate the supposed creation of man by their gods, the Ori -- and they are thus heretics. Those Alterans left behind when the Ancients migrated to our own galaxy also learned how to ascend, leaving worlds inhabited by humans, too. But unlike the Ancients, the Ori do meddle in the affairs of those mortals. Because they have powers like the Ancients, the Ori are virtually indistinguishable from gods.

# Vala theorizes that the Ori are those people left behind in this galaxy by the Ancients, who like the Ancients in our galaxy learned to ascend. The two may even be of the same original species -- the Alterans.
# If that is the case, the less advanced humans of this world in their galaxy may have been created by them as a second evolution of the human form, just as the Ancients went on to seed the Milky Way and Pegasus Galaxies with human-form life.
# The Ori are philosophically opposite from the Ancients. The Ori not only interfere in the lives of mortals; they also play the role of gods, enforcing their religion on their human subjects.

Alipeeps
December 21st, 2006, 08:22 AM
I don't think Rodney ever, ever planned on attacking John's country. So Rodney's country was going to become really prosperous through technology and be superior to John's. Obviously he's planning war and John has to double his army!

I'm not saying John was stupid for doing it. But other people would just have given their own people technology or not bothered.

Because, hey, Rodney was playing the Sims 2, not Starcraft.

No, he just intended to unfairly advance his people and have them illegally invade John's country and steal whatever resources they wanted. May I remind you that what his people did by mining within Hallona could be considered an ACT OF WAR. It was an attack. And Rodney ordered it.

I also note that you have repeatedly failed to respond to my point that building up the army in Hallona was the most logical way to secure his country (given that the neighbouring country is technologically far more advanced and already making demands under the guise of trade negotiations) within the context of the people's level of development (middle-ages level). Unlike Rodney, Sheppard was playing by the rules and, as I have also previously mentioned and you have ignored, Sheppard does not have the technological know-how to artifically advance his people as Rodney had done.

Rodney is one of the most competitive people ever and if you seriously think he was playing that game and never once thinking about how to "beat" John's country then I think you are ascribing him much more charitable aspirations than what we know of his character would suggest.

luvmac
December 21st, 2006, 08:44 AM
John responded by doing what he could, within the rules of the game,

Seriously, how do we know that Rodney wasn't acting within the rules of the game? The rules were never specifically stated. The only thing that anyone has to go on that Rodney was "cheating" was the fact that John kept saying it. It doesn't mean that it was actually true. In fact somewhere towards the end Rodney says somewhere along the lines of they couldn't give them huge leaps in technology. Now he might have been walking a fine line with those rules but there's nothing to say (other than John) that Rodney actually crossed that line.

Other than that I think Rodney was actually the one that escalated things to the point where they reached a possible war. He was being unreasonable and unyielding (and yes arrogant) just simply for the fact that he could. He also allowed his "people" to dig into another person's territory because they had something he wanted and he didn't see the reason why they wouldn't give it to him (even though he refused to reasonably trade things they wanted and needed).

FallenAngelII
December 21st, 2006, 08:44 AM
I think it's pretty clear from what everyone is saying that the Alterrans are both Ancient and Ori. They split some untold number of years ago, and the Ancients fled to the milky way.

Now, can anyone refresh my memory Did the Alterrans go to the MW, learn to ascend, then some of the unascended Alterrans go to Pegasus a million years ago (as shown in Rising), thus bringing ancients there? So we have the possible Alterran originating Ori galaxy, the Milky Way and Pegasus (or did the Alterrans evolve in Pegasus and then some go to the Ori Galaxy?)

The reason I ask is because, according to the gateworld omnipedia/episode guides, we have two different versions. We have Vala and Daniel making suppositions, and the Doci saying that they seeded life in the Ori galaxy, but then you have the heretics (who were killed) saying they have evidence that their evolution preceeded the Ori.

If they are indeed correct, the the Ori didn't seed anything. They hijacked either an independant human evolution or human races that the Ancients/Alterrans had already seeded. It's this inconsistancy that has me wondering if the Ori somehow came after the first Ancients started ascending. (Which the onipedia actually supports. Ascension is an ongoing process. Certainly blocks of people do it, but true ascension is very personal, and I'm sure it happened in fits and spurts, especially at the beginning).

Sources:
The Doci's lying about tons of things, you really think he's gonna say "Some of the enemies of the Ori escaped our galaxy"?

The timeline is this:
Approximately 60-70 millions years ago, the Alterrans split into what would become the Ori and what we would come to call the Ancients.

The Ancients travelled far and wide before reaching the Milky Way. It's possible they travelled past the Asgard galaxy in doing so as one of the Asgards in "The Fifth Race" said "The Ancients left our corner of the galaxy a long time ago" (<-- not exact quote).

Then they settled in the Milky Way, seeding life, encountered the plague, used the Dakara device to re-seed life and then left in their "flying city" to explore the galaxy further (eventually ending up in the Pegasus galaxy).

The exact order and timeline for all of those things are fuzzy. The only thing we know is that they left the Milky Way "Millions of years ago".

But we know that they left the Milky Way shortly after encountering the plague because Aiyana said goodbye to what we're supposing was her lover in Atlantis right before it lifted off from Antarctica.


No, he just intended to unfairly advance his people and have them illegally invade John's country and steal whatever resources they wanted. May I remind you that what his people did by mining within Hallona could be considered an ACT OF WAR. It was an attack. And Rodney ordered it.

I also note that you have repeatedly failed to respond to my point that building up the army in Hallona was the most logical way to secure his country (given that the neighbouring country is technologically far more advanced and already making demands under the guise of trade negotiations) within the context of the people's level of development (middle-ages level). Unlike Rodney, Sheppard was playing by the rules and, as I have also previously mentioned and you have ignored, Sheppard does not have the technological know-how to artifically advance his people as Rodney had done.

Rodney is one of the most competitive people ever and if you seriously think he was playing that game and never once thinking about how to "beat" John's country then I think you are ascribing him much more charitable aspirations than what we know of his character would suggest.
While I have no doubt Rodney wanted to "win", I don't think he'd ever attack John's country.

We have different stand points. Let's leave it at that (I don't think it's the most logical thing to do to double your army because you neighbours got bikes and hot air balloons).

And all-our war is still an overreaction to coal theft (IMO).

And as luvmac points out, we only have John's word for that it was "cheating" (hence why I used to use quotating marks).

Nolamom
December 21st, 2006, 08:49 AM
It is far easier to ignore the logical parts of arguments that contradict one's point of view than to address them in a straightforward manner. Ignorance is bliss, eh?

and no, I won't go away...so a petty red doesn't bother me...

FallenAngelII
December 21st, 2006, 08:57 AM
It is far easier to ignore the logical parts of arguments that contradict one's point of view than to address them in a straightforward manner. Ignorance is bliss, eh?

and no, I won't go away...so a petty red doesn't bother me...
She thinks it's logical to double your army when your neighbour gets scientific advancements. I don't.

What are we supposed to discuss beyond that?

prion
December 21st, 2006, 09:07 AM
Forget all the squabbling about who is at fault.

I want to know why there's all this blue jello in Atlantis. Do they have something against red jello? It's a conspiracy, I tell ya!!! ;)

Nolamom
December 21st, 2006, 09:12 AM
It's the point about Rodney artificially advancing Nola's people technologically which was "cheating". You have maintained that it wasn't. Sorry, in my opinion and those of the majority of other posters on this thread, it was. John's group, not having that technologial 'edge' had no choice but to counter Rodney's manipulations with military strength - such as it was.

I have come to believe that you argue for the sake of arguing. A way of being provocative? Sorry, I won't play your game. Have fun with others.

I enjoyed this episode, and no, not just because of Nola - hehehe. It was a chance to see some character interaction. Go Carl Binder!

Arlessiar
December 21st, 2006, 09:32 AM
Same thing happens to me, I understand english pretty well, but Sheppard mumbles, McKay babbles a lot, and let's not get started with Zlenka, half the time Ionly understand what he says until after I've gotten hold of the subs. The only two people I understand perfectly are Elizabeth, Teyla, and Ronon because mostly he speaks very little or just grumbles. :P I always understand Teyla and Weir, and I understand Rodney and Carson most of the time. It's harder for me to understand Zelenka, Ronon and especially John.

Good thing that there are transcripts. :)


No, he wasn't. Rodney used technology (technology that was far to advanced for the level of development of his "team") to try to put his country in a position of superiority, of power, over John's. John responded by doing what he could, within the rules of the game, to protect his people and bring them back to an equal footing
Unlike Rodney, Sheppard was playing by the rules Well, we don't know the rules of the game. Hence we don't know if Rodney really cheated or not, and if John stayed within the rules of the game or not. We only speculate and interpret what we heard and saw.
And honestly, John claimed so often that Rodney cheated that it sounded a bit like a pathetic excuse after a while. He still blamed him in pressing real life situations where there were really more important decisions to make! I thought that this behaviour was rather childish and didn't fit (I blame TPTB for that), so I couldn't really take John's claims seriously anymore.

But who knows, as I said we don't know the rules of the game, the way it's played, it's ultimate goal, the levels or whatever else. We don't know if anyone acted unfair actually. I agree that it very likely was an act of war when Rodney's people stole the coal from John's territory. But everything before that, be it the military or the scientific approach to playing this game, can't be judged as long as we don't know the rules.

ETA: Just saw your post, luvmac, where you basically said the same I just said. So I can add now that I agree with your post!

Bye, A.

Arlessiar
December 21st, 2006, 09:46 AM
Sorry, in my opinion and those of the majority of other posters on this thread, it was. And if the majority thinks that way then it's right?

I don't think that way, by the way. I don't agree with everything FallenAngel said, but with many things I do agree.


John's group, not having that technologial 'edge' had no choice but to counter Rodney's manipulations with military strength - such as it was. He had no choice??? You always have a choice. Why did he think it's necessary to increase the army just because the neighbours have telescopes and bikes now? That was certainly no threat. He might have thought it was cheating, yes, (we don't know the rules of the game), but it wasn't the only option. It simply was John's way of thinking. I don't blame him for that, no! Because that's just the way he ticks. Rodney uses the scientific method, John the military method, that's fine with me. But it wasn't the only option.

I have come to believe that you argue for the sake of arguing. A way of being provocative? Sorry, I won't play your game. Have fun with others. Fallen Angel just defends his/her viewpoint, what's wrong with that? It's just hard to maintain your POV when so many people contradict, but that doesn't mean you have to change it.

Bye, A.

Nolamom
December 21st, 2006, 10:02 AM
Fallen Angel just defends his/her viewpoint, what's wrong with that? It's just hard to maintain your POV when so many people contradict, but that doesn't mean you have to change it.Not trying to change it. I wouldn't bother. I'm just not going to argue with him yet again. Every thread that I've seen him in has been to argue. That's not my idea of having fun on Gateworld. So, I'm not playing his game. Sorry if that disturbs anyone else, but I don't put folks on ignore, I just don't play with them.
Nola

LoveConquers
December 21st, 2006, 10:05 AM
He had no choice??? You always have a choice. Why did he think it's necessary to increase the army just because the neighbours have telescopes and bikes now? That was certainly no threat. He might have thought it was cheating, yes, (we don't know the rules of the game), but it wasn't the only option. It simply was John's way of thinking. I don't blame him for that, no! Because that's just the way he ticks. Rodney uses the scientific method, John the military method, that's fine with me. But it wasn't the only option.



This was commented on a few pages ago. Again, the assumption here is that Rodney's technology was only for "happy and harmless" things when in fact, it did not turn out to be so harmless at all. Yes, there was a good side to that technology, but it also led to the moral compromise of that same country. Rodney had good intentions, but he was also just wanted to win a game. He also gave them the ingredients for bombs and air ships. He did not know they had made a bomb, but can you honestly believe he never intended to eventually tell them to do so since he had already provided the ingredients and materials? IMO, his shock was not that they built it, but that they built it without telling him and before he had ordered it. He also ordered an advancement and IMO, what was an invasion, into another country to steal resources that were already denied to him. These are not such happy things and our point is simply that we do not know how much John did or did not know about what all Rodney was doing. I do not think it is much of a stretch to believe that John's military training would have him seeing the dangerous possibilities of technology being bestowed upon a civilization not yet ready for it.
So yes, of course he had a choice. To sit and do nothing and risk possible take-over or to defensively build up an army. Not because of bikes and hot air balloons, but because of the dangerous possibilities that technology can also lead to. Again, he was preparing for the worst case scenario. And in this case, it turned out to be rightly so because that same technology did in fact lead to conflict.
So he had a choice, but was backed into choosing defensive preparations. In this context, you could argue, he had no choice for to do nothing would have resulted in doom and loss within the game.
Again, this was also all in context of a game and both were trying to win by having the better country as stated in the jumper scene.

Linzi
December 21st, 2006, 10:16 AM
I always understand Teyla and Weir, and I understand Rodney and Carson most of the time. It's harder for me to understand Zelenka, Ronon and especially John.

Good thing that there are transcripts. :)

Well, we don't know the rules of the game. Hence we don't know if Rodney really cheated or not, and if John stayed within the rules of the game or not. We only speculate and interpret what we heard and saw.
And honestly, John claimed so often that Rodney cheated that it sounded a bit like a pathetic excuse after a while. He still blamed him in pressing real life situations where there were really more important decisions to make! I thought that this behaviour was rather childish and didn't fit (I blame TPTB for that), so I couldn't really take John's claims seriously anymore.

But who knows, as I said we don't know the rules of the game, the way it's played, it's ultimate goal, the levels or whatever else. We don't know if anyone acted unfair actually. I agree that it very likely was an act of war when Rodney's people stole the coal from John's territory. But everything before that, be it the military or the scientific approach to playing this game, can't be judged as long as we don't know the rules.

ETA: Just saw your post, luvmac, where you basically said the same I just said. So I can add now that I agree with your post!

Bye, A.
I don't agree that John was childish alone. Rodney AND John were equally childish at times. Squabbling and not settling their differences when their countries were heading to war. Weir gave them BOTH a good kick up the backside, and her face was classic when she found out Rodney had ORDERED his people to drill into Hallona.
I actually couldn't take Rodney seriously either, especially that he had his face on flags everywhere, had made lemons toxic to the Geldans etc.. but then again it was all a GAME. Rodney said it wasn't cheating, but I don't believe him. He's incredibly competitve and values brains and technology above everything else, of course he'd give those things to his people.
One thing that did irk me about this episode though. How on Earth could Hallona (ooops! I meant Geldar!!) become so technologically advanced so quickly? In two years? Even with McKay's information. They were supposed to be a mediaeval society and they can just follow his instructions and develop in two years? I think not.

Arlessiar
December 21st, 2006, 11:14 AM
Not trying to change it. I wouldn't bother. I'm just not going to argue with him yet again. Every thread that I've seen him in has been to argue. That's not my idea of having fun on Gateworld. So, I'm not playing his game. Sorry if that disturbs anyone else, but I don't put folks on ignore, I just don't play with them I understand that, it's of course your right if you don't want to play that game. I was just wondering why you are in a discussion thread when your definition of fun is different. No offense, was just wondering, because I think it's great if people have the time for such discussions and enjoy them, as this is an important part of the fandom I think (IMHO what we had just here was still a discussion, not an argument). Personally and unfortunately I often don't have enough time for lenghty discussions, so I mostly just visit my 'home threads' to relax a bit. :)

Bye, A.

Alipeeps
December 21st, 2006, 11:15 AM
Seriously, how do we know that Rodney wasn't acting within the rules of the game? The rules were never specifically stated. The only thing that anyone has to go on that Rodney was "cheating" was the fact that John kept saying it. It doesn't mean that it was actually true. In fact somewhere towards the end Rodney says somewhere along the lines of they couldn't give them huge leaps in technology. Now he might have been walking a fine line with those rules but there's nothing to say (other than John) that Rodney actually crossed that line.




Well, we don't know the rules of the game. Hence we don't know if Rodney really cheated or not, and if John stayed within the rules of the game or not. We only speculate and interpret what we heard and saw.


My understanding of the accusation that Rodney cheated is not that there were specific "rules" to the game that he went against, more that it is unfair and, basically, "cheating" to artificially advance a society the way he did. They were playing a game where the object was to grow and develop a society - instead of helping that society to grow and develop at a natural pace, Rodney gave them specific scientific information that allowed them to develop at a much faster rate than they ever would have done naturally - and, really, before they were ready or able to cope with the consequences of such knowledge. By most definitions, that is cheating.

To use a computer game analogy, it was as two people were playing a WW2-based battle game and Rodney suddenly gave his soldiers technology way more advanced than their era - e.g. Harrier jump jets. Totally unfair and definitely "cheating".


This was commented on a few pages ago. Again, the assumption here is that Rodney's technology was only for "happy and harmless" things when in fact, it did not turn out to be so harmless at all. Yes, there was a good side to that technology, but it also led to the moral compromise of that same country. Rodney had good intentions, but he was also just wanted to win a game. He also gave them the ingredients for bombs and air ships. He did not know they had made a bomb, but can you honestly believe he never intended to eventually tell them to do so since he had already provided the ingredients and materials? IMO, his shock was not that they built it, but that they built it without telling him and before he had ordered it. He also ordered an advancement and IMO, what was an invasion, into another country to steal resources that were already denied to him. These are not such happy things and our point is simply that we do not know how much John did or did not know about what all Rodney was doing. I do not think it is much of a stretch to believe that John's military training would have him seeing the dangerous possibilities of technology being bestowed upon a civilization not yet ready for it.
So yes, of course he had a choice. To sit and do nothing and risk possible take-over or to defensively build up an army. Not because of bikes and hot air balloons, but because of the dangerous possibilities that technology can also lead to. Again, he was preparing for the worst case scenario. And in this case, it turned out to be rightly so because that same technology did in fact lead to conflict.
So he had a choice, but was backed into choosing defensive preparations. In this context, you could argue, he had no choice for to do nothing would have resulted in doom and loss within the game.
Again, this was also all in context of a game and both were trying to win by having the better country as stated in the jumper scene.

Precisely. My point, which FAII has chosen not to address, is that, given the confines of the way the game should be played (developing a society at a natural pace) and the level of development his people were at, building up a military force for defence purposes was an entirely natural response to another country making rapid technological advances and behaving in a threatening manner (demanding resources rather than negotiating etc)

Ltcolshepjumper
December 21st, 2006, 11:47 AM
Well it wasn't fair, from Sheppard's pov, since Mckay knew things that sheppard didn't and Mckay could accuse shepaprd of doubling his army because what else could he do? Mckay's people made blimps, which are clearly not a medieval age invention. And bombs? Mckay clearly had the advantage. I wonder though, what Baden meant when he said they weren't as primitive as Nola believed.

luvmac
December 21st, 2006, 11:59 AM
My understanding of the accusation that Rodney cheated is not that there were specific "rules" to the game that he went against, more that it is unfair and, basically, "cheating" to artificially advance a society the way he did.

But if he didn't go against any specific rules then even if he did given them advanced technology he couldn't have cheated.




given the confines of the way the game should be played (developing a society at a natural pace)

While I do think that there were specific rules that they had to follow the show didn't give us enough information to know whether or not Rodney actually crossed the line and cheated. From what Rodney says at one point you could give them some technologica information it's just not clear how much or how fast.

What makes me wonder if Rodney really cheated is the fact that John tends to goad Rodney by saying things that aren't necessarily true just to get a rise out of him.
Case in point was the fact that in the puddle jumper he stated that Rodney "stalked" the college girlfriend that Rodney had named his country after. He stated it like it was a fact even though there was no proof of this.

Nolamom
December 21st, 2006, 12:06 PM
My understanding of the accusation that Rodney cheated is not that there were specific "rules" to the game that he went against, more that it is unfair and, basically, "cheating" to artificially advance a society the way he did. They were playing a game where the object was to grow and develop a society - instead of helping that society to grow and develop at a natural pace, Rodney gave them specific scientific information that allowed them to develop at a much faster rate than they ever would have done naturally - and, really, before they were ready or able to cope with the consequences of such knowledge. By most definitions, that is cheating. The 'game' was a sociological experiment set up by the Ancients. Of course, the Ancients weren't likely to advance the societies at an accelerated pace, hence their level of developement when discovered by John and Rodney. Rodney certainly did advance his people more than they should have been. Rodney has displayed, on more than one occasion, a strong predeliction for technology (no surprise) and a selfish streak. Remember the coffee - when Atlantis was about to run out, Rodney drank as much as possible to get "his" - plus a bit more. Same thing applies here. Rodney cheated to "win" the game. He wanted his people to be better than John's so he artificially advanced them and then they INVADED and STOLE resources.


To use a computer game analogy, it was as two people were playing a WW2-based battle game and Rodney suddenly gave his soldiers technology way more advanced than their era - e.g. Harrier jump jets. Totally unfair and definitely "cheating". yeppers

Ltcolshepjumper
December 21st, 2006, 12:36 PM
agreed. There was no way for Sheppard to "win" the game. Mckay's country made bombs and blimps! hundreds of years ahead of any medieval race. It was complete cheating, especially since they were competing.

FallenAngelII
December 21st, 2006, 12:43 PM
This was commented on a few pages ago. Again, the assumption here is that Rodney's technology was only for "happy and harmless" things when in fact, it did not turn out to be so harmless at all. Yes, there was a good side to that technology, but it also led to the moral compromise of that same country. Rodney had good intentions, but he was also just wanted to win a game. He also gave them the ingredients for bombs and air ships. He did not know they had made a bomb, but can you honestly believe he never intended to eventually tell them to do so since he had already provided the ingredients and materials? IMO, his shock was not that they built it, but that they built it without telling him and before he had ordered it. He also ordered an advancement and IMO, what was an invasion, into another country to steal resources that were already denied to him. These are not such happy things and our point is simply that we do not know how much John did or did not know about what all Rodney was doing. I do not think it is much of a stretch to believe that John's military training would have him seeing the dangerous possibilities of technology being bestowed upon a civilization not yet ready for it.
So yes, of course he had a choice. To sit and do nothing and risk possible take-over or to defensively build up an army. Not because of bikes and hot air balloons, but because of the dangerous possibilities that technology can also lead to. Again, he was preparing for the worst case scenario. And in this case, it turned out to be rightly so because that same technology did in fact lead to conflict.
So he had a choice, but was backed into choosing defensive preparations. In this context, you could argue, he had no choice for to do nothing would have resulted in doom and loss within the game.
Again, this was also all in context of a game and both were trying to win by having the better country as stated in the jumper scene.
Do you know how easy it is to make a bomb? I, a language major, can Google up how to build one using only household items. Giving people a few technological advancement will make them eventually discover how to make a bomb.

Do you really think Rodney, of all people, would wage war just for the heck of it?

Ltcolshepjumper
December 21st, 2006, 12:47 PM
Rodney was just as guilty as Sheppard. During the time Rodney wasn't playing, Nola would have used the bombs. they were already built. She would have used them.

Willow'sCat
December 21st, 2006, 12:48 PM
As John said. Rodney didn't negotiate jack. He gave a list of demands and offered something John didn't need in return. Rodney cheated. It was a GAME. When it became real they were all affected by it.

John didn't do anything wrong. He didn't start any war. But he would have been within his right too, in the GAME, after all the cheating Rodney did. Too bad Rodney couldn't have played the game fairly.

The minute Rodney started cheating, John had the right to do what he did and he did it without cheating. In the GAME. ::Shakes head::LOL! No he was as much to blame for what happened as Rodney and we only have John's word *sorry not counting for much with me* that Rodney was cheating and quite frankly how do you even cheat in a "Game" that can't have any rules as it wasn't actually a "Game" in the first place? :confused: I understand about fair play but come on, they had no rules... :p NO RULES! It was a free for all, and John probably got pissy when Rodney's strategy started to work so he says he cheated... boys ;)

Anyway, I still say they were both to blame, but John being military took the root that leads to war (through protection/defending) and Rodney took the root of advancement through science that funnily enough also tends to lead to war... go figure humans starting wars... never happens. :rolleyes:

FallenAngelII
December 21st, 2006, 12:49 PM
Rodney was just as guilty as Sheppard. During the time Rodney wasn't playing, Nola would have used the bombs. they were already built. She would have used them.
Yes, but Rodney didn't tell them how to make bombs. John told his army to double and acted reaaaally immature around Baten.

After consideration, I'll conceede to that they were probably equally responsible. I still reaaaaally dislike John's behavior, though. He kept calling Rodney a cheater (in front of Baten) when trying to stop a war.

Arlessiar
December 21st, 2006, 12:52 PM
This was commented on a few pages ago. I think I read about 70% of the posts here, but I simply don't have the time to read every single post every day.

I don't agree that John was childish alone. Rodney AND John were equally childish at times I never said that John was childish alone. Rodney was too, both of them were rather 5 year old boys than grown-up men for a while! What I meant wasn't the fact that they behaved silly when they were still playing that game. From the moment they knew that this is not a game Rodney was rather and unusually subdued. John on the other hand didn't seem to be that concerned to me as I actually expected him to be. He even repeated the "Rodney cheated" phrase even when there were really much more important things to think about and concentrate on than that. It just wasn't very appropriate or helpful.
And that's of course just my opinion. I simply don't think that John Sheppard (or anyone else!) is always doing or saying the right thing.


They were playing a game where the object was to grow and develop a society - instead of helping that society to grow and develop at a natural pace, Rodney gave them specific scientific information that allowed them to develop at a much faster rate than they ever would have done naturally Agreed, it might have been a problem because they weren't ready for that kind if technology at that time, but I still wouldn't call it cheating as long as there are no rules that forbid that, and that we simply don't know as it wasn't stated on the show. I have no reason to believe John more than I believe Rodney, they could both be lying/exaggerating/speaking the truth, so I just have to say that I simply don't know if it was cheating or not because I don't know the exact rules of the game.


You know, the more I think about this ep, the more I figure out that maybe I'm just tired that it's always the same sh*t on the show.

Rant ahead, so I put it in tags for size:
All in all they're all the good guys, but when it comes down to it Rodney is the guy with the bad character traits who screws up and gets blamed for that, the others are the heroes or sweeties who are easily forgiven (Sheppard, Beckett) or are so nice that they never do anything wrong (Teyla). It's getting old. Why does Rodney always have to be the one who causes trouble and gets whacked over the head for that? And while we're at it, why is he the one who automatically cheats (if it was cheating) in a game? Is Sheppard (or anyone else) so much better than him, is his moralilty so much higher that he'd never ever do something like that? I doubt it.

Don't get me wrong, Rodney is certainly not an easy or soft character, and sometimes his arrogance or snarkiness causes problems. That's ok for me, it's part of the character I like so much and I don't want to lose that. But whenever a scene comes up where characters are judged, it's always Rodney who's the one with the questionable motives, the unfair or unsocial behaviour or the one who makes the big mistakes that stay in the minds of his colleagues. It's getting a bit tiring that he's most of the time the only one who gets blamed openly. Are all the other people better persons just because they're nicer to their colleagues and to kids and retirees and animals, admit all their mistakes openly or blame themselves for them heroically?

We certainly get to see alot of McKay on the show, so I guess I should be happy about that (and I am). But generally it bothers me that it's always Rodney whose bad sides are on display.

Bye, A.

Ltcolshepjumper
December 21st, 2006, 01:02 PM
Yes, but Rodney didn't tell them how to make bombs. John told his army to double and acted reaaaally immature around Baten.

After consideration, I'll conceede to that they were probably equally responsible. I still reaaaaally dislike John's behavior, though. He kept calling Rodney a cheater (in front of Baten) when trying to stop a war.

Now doubling your army doesn't really amount to aggression. Yes he was immature but not aggressive. Mckay giving his people more technology could be seen equally as aggressive. And why give them the ingredients to making a bomb in the first place. And I think there's a lot more Mckay did tell them, especially since they were able and had th idea of making bombs and blimps.

FallenAngelII
December 21st, 2006, 01:07 PM
Now doubling your army doesn't really amount to aggression. Yes he was immature but not aggressive. Mckay giving his people more technology could be seen equally as aggressive. And why give them the ingredients to making a bomb in the first place. And I think there's a lot more Mckay did tell them, especially since they were able and had th idea of making bombs and blimps.
Rodney never gave them the ingredients for the bomb. Those ingredients were probably found around the planet. Rodney didn't exactly pull ingredients out of thin air.

Again, I can construct a bomb out of kitchen items.

Rodney gave them a lot of different technologies. They figured out how to combine these into a bomb.

Ltcolshepjumper
December 21st, 2006, 01:11 PM
So what you're saying is that Mckay told them nothing of how to even remotely make an explosive. Look at how long it took us to make bombs. Even with Mckay's guidance, they still couldn't have automatically known what to do with the ingredients. He had to have revealed to them something like that. And like I said, Mckay couldn't have criticized sheppard for doubling his army. There was nothing else he could do to possibly defend his country. And Sheppard obviously hadn't made any aggressive attacks, or the war would have started earlier.

SyKeS
December 21st, 2006, 01:19 PM
I just want to say how annoyed and ubelievably dumb I find these kind of eppisodes where a bunch of Americans go around and tell how bad it is to make war. They really talk like they know better, while in fact the very army of the united states for which they work have made more of a mess of this planet the last few decades in 'service' of their country then I though humanly possible. Its too bad hollywood doesnt recongnise that a big chunck of their viewers lives outside of the US and well...almost everybody outside the US doesnt see them as a very loving country indeed. Why dont these directors do something with this information?? Let sheppard say something like...we ****ed up bigtime in Iraq (twice lol) and in a country called vietnam where we tried to force our ways and ended up killing thousends upon thousend of innocent people and its horrible!! Learn from us by ending this ancient 'game' in piece. That would have made it a lot more pleasant to watch in my opinion.

Im interested to hear if any American viewers even noticed this.

Greets

SyKeS

Arlessiar
December 21st, 2006, 01:23 PM
There was no way for Sheppard to "win" the game. Mckay's country made bombs and blimps! hundreds of years ahead of any medieval race. It was complete cheating, especially since they were competing.McKay certainly didn't encourage them to make bombs or gave them the explicit ingredients they needed. He was very surprised when they told him about the weapons. His people developed and figured it out on their own with the stuff they had, and even though they figured it out earlier than they would have naturally because McKay gave them more advanced technology, it wasn't directly Rodney's fault that they suddenly had bombs and blimps! He didn't give them theorder to build it. Yes, he was responsible for giving them more advanced technology, but they would have figured out how to make bombs sooner or later, now they figured it out sooner. Without his help. If it was cheating at all that they got or discovered the advanced technology in the first place - who knows as long as we don't know the rules of that game, if it has any at all.


Now doubling your army doesn't really amount to aggression. Yes he was immature but not aggressive. Mckay giving his people more technology could be seen equally as aggressive. And why give them the ingredients to making a bomb in the first place. Yeah, of course, doubling you're army doesn't amount to agression, but giving your people bikes and lenses does...

Bye, A.

Ltcolshepjumper
December 21st, 2006, 01:27 PM
Its not an either-or situation. Nowhere did I say that Shepparrds's innocent, Mckay's guilty. It wasn't what they told them to do. Its what they told them about each other that caused the hostility. sheppard could have quadrupled his army and Mckay could have taught his people how to built fighter jets, but the real blame is with the lies Mckay and Sheppard told their respective countries. They stirred up the hostility before either had become potential threats.

Luz
December 21st, 2006, 01:36 PM
Its not an either-or situation. Nowhere did I say that Shepparrds's innocent, Mckay's guilty. It wasn't what they told them to do. Its what they told them about each other that caused the hostility. sheppard could have quadrupled his army and Mckay could have taught his people how to built fighter jets, but the real blame is with the lies Mckay and Sheppard told their respective countries. They stirred up the hostility before either had become potential threats.

But they thought it was a game, I really can't examine their actions in a harsh light because to them it was a game, and we've seen that when real people are involved both of them are more mindful. they wouldn't play with real people's lives like they did with the people when they thought they weren't real. See how when they realized that it wasn't a game they started to work towards fixing things between both villages.
Now, Sheppard's remarks that McKay cheated, I'm taking that as the boys usual banter.
And whatever McKay did to help his people advance technologically, or what Sheppard did with his army, it was in the context of a game to both of them and they did what they thought they needed to do to win, they didn't think real people would get hurt, it didn't cross their minds. And a war on a game doesn't seem that terrible, let's face it, kids play with their video games, they blow up cities, kill people, monsters, blow spaceships, and there are no consequences. So these boys (Sheppard and McKay) behaved like two kids would behave on a game, trying to outsmart the opponent.

Ltcolshepjumper
December 21st, 2006, 01:39 PM
I agree. You can't really blame them for doing anything, aside from the fact that it happened as a result of their doing, because it was done unknowingly( causing two real people to go to war, I mean).

Linzi
December 21st, 2006, 01:45 PM
I think I read about 70% of the posts here, but I simply don't have the time to read every single post every day.
I never said that John was childish alone. Rodney was too, both of them were rather 5 year old boys than grown-up men for a while! What I meant wasn't the fact that they behaved silly when they were still playing that game. From the moment they knew that this is not a game Rodney was rather and unusually subdued. John on the other hand didn't seem to be that concerned to me as I actually expected him to be. He even repeated the "Rodney cheated" phrase even when there were really much more important things to think about and concentrate on than that. It just wasn't very appropriate or helpful.
And that's of course just my opinion. I simply don't think that John Sheppard (or anyone else!) is always doing or saying the right thing.

Agreed, it might have been a problem because they weren't ready for that kind if technology at that time, but I still wouldn't call it cheating as long as there are no rules that forbid that, and that we simply don't know as it wasn't stated on the show. I have no reason to believe John more than I believe Rodney, they could both be lying/exaggerating/speaking the truth, so I just have to say that I simply don't know if it was cheating or not because I don't know the exact rules of the game.


You know, the more I think about this ep, the more I figure out that maybe I'm just tired that it's always the same sh*t on the show.

Rant ahead, so I put it in tags for size:
All in all they're all the good guys, but when it comes down to it Rodney is the guy with the bad character traits who screws up and gets blamed for that, the others are the heroes or sweeties who are easily forgiven (Sheppard, Beckett) or are so nice that they never do anything wrong (Teyla). It's getting old. Why does Rodney always have to be the one who causes trouble and gets whacked over the head for that? And while we're at it, why is he the one who automatically cheats (if it was cheating) in a game? Is Sheppard (or anyone else) so much better than him, is his moralilty so much higher that he'd never ever do something like that? I doubt it.

Don't get me wrong, Rodney is certainly not an easy or soft character, and sometimes his arrogance or snarkiness causes problems. That's ok for me, it's part of the character I like so much and I don't want to lose that. But whenever a scene comes up where characters are judged, it's always Rodney who's the one with the questionable motives, the unfair or unsocial behaviour or the one who makes the big mistakes that stay in the minds of his colleagues. It's getting a bit tiring that he's most of the time the only one who gets blamed openly. Are all the other people better persons just because they're nicer to their colleagues and to kids and retirees and animals, admit all their mistakes openly or blame themselves for them heroically?

We certainly get to see alot of McKay on the show, so I guess I should be happy about that (and I am). But generally it bothers me that it's always Rodney whose bad sides are on display.

Bye, A.
Answering your thoughts on Rodney. I think all of the characters have had bad moments throughout the series, and I certainly don't think Sheppard isn't shown making mistakes, even if they are for what he believes are the right reasons. After all, he woke up the wraith, for example. I also think people can be very hard on Sheppard, more so than towards McKay generally.
I can see where you are coming from. Rodney is often seen as an object of ridicule and is used for comedic purposes. He can be an ass, egotistic, unsympathetic and very insensitive at times. He also saves everyone on a regular basis with his brain, has a good heart and is incredibly amusing. I rather like Rodney's character flaws, just as I like John's. Ok, in real life a character such as Rodney would drive me insane, but on the screen he is very entertaining when used properly, and not over used. I do think TPTB over do the comic stuff sometimes though, and I'd like to see it shared around.
I think the key to this is that Rodney is a very arrogant man, and unfortunately pride comes before a fall. He is very flawed and his behaviour towards his fellow scientists and especially Zelenka, by his own admission, has been appalling. That sort of thing does stick in people's minds. So yes, when the genius makes a mistake, nobody will let him forget it, because he's generally so conceited about his own abilities and puts down others, undervaluing their contributions. He doesn't really mean anything by it, that's true, but many people would find it hard to live with that sort of behaviour. I certainly would in real life.
In contrast, Sheppard gets on well on a superficial level with everyone, and treats everyone pretty fairly. He's amiable and mild-mannered. He's also pretty heroic in terms of putting himself in danger to save others physically and comes up with intelligent plans to save the day too. I guess people find it easier to ignore the flaws of people like that?
Also, don't forget Sheppard is the hero. We all know that TPTB don't want their hero to be seen as flawed in any way. I personally don't agree with that, and neither does Joe Flanigan, but the writers etc. write how they see fit, and unfortunately I can't see that changing. :(
As far as the two boys behaved in the Game, I do think when it was thought to be a game neither did anything wrong as such. But when it was revealed it was all a social experiment, and incidentally I believe the Ancients would have specified that technological advances weren't allowed to happen beyond normal evolution, both McKay and Sheppard should have grown up a little and not bickered. But, I have to say, I really enjoy their bickering and banter, so I was pretty entertained by it all :)

LoveConquers
December 21st, 2006, 02:11 PM
Yes, but Rodney didn't tell them how to make bombs. John told his army to double and acted reaaaally immature around Baten.

After consideration, I'll conceede to that they were probably equally responsible. I still reaaaaally dislike John's behavior, though. He kept calling Rodney a cheater (in front of Baten) when trying to stop a war.



Rodney never gave them the ingredients for the bomb. Those ingredients were probably found around the planet. Rodney didn't exactly pull ingredients out of thin air.

Again, I can construct a bomb out of kitchen items. Rodney gave them a lot of different technologies. They figured out how to combine these into a bomb




I disagree. Looks like a list of ingredients to me.

McKAY: Uh, what are you doing?
NOLA: Preparing our counter-attack.
McKAY: What counter-attack?
GARTH: From information you gave us about high-temperature and energetic materials technology, I have constructed a tactical explosive device

SHEPPARD: You taught them how to build a bomb?!
McKAY: No! Well, not specifically. Look, OK, maybe I provided them with a list of ingredients but ...
SHEPPARD (furiously): I don’t believe this!

And since when does "google" and "common kitchen items" exist in the middle ages?

I do agree with you though that John's behavior later after finding out it wasn't a game was annoying and out of character, IMO. In fact, I would even venture to wonder if not Joe felt the same way. He had the same stance and expresion that he did in other episodes that we later learn he personally did not like. Just a thought.

Regardless, I definitely agree with you as well that they were both together responsible for the overall outcome!

FallenAngelII
December 21st, 2006, 02:13 PM
I disagree. Looks like a list to me.

McKAY: Uh, what are you doing?
NOLA: Preparing our counter-attack.
McKAY: What counter-attack?
GARTH: From information you gave us about high-temperature and energetic materials technology, I have constructed a tactical explosive device

SHEPPARD: You taught them how to build a bomb?!
McKAY: No! Well, not specifically. Look, OK, maybe I provided them with a list of ingredients but ...
SHEPPARD (furiously): I don’t believe this!

And since when does "google" and "common kitchen items" exist in the middle ages?

I do agree with you though that John's behavior later after finding out it wasn't a game was annoying and out of character, IMO. In fact, I would even venture to wonder if not Joe felt the same way. He had the same stance and expresion that he did in other episodes that we later learn he personally did not like. Just a thought.

Regardless, I definitely agree with you as well that they were both together responsible for the overall outcome!
Rodney gave his little sims a list of ingredients? I think he was gonna say "that could be used to build a bomb..." with some of those "ingredients" being scientific studies he taught them.

Nola told him he'd taught them two different things, both of which they combined into a bomb.

And Rodney was as surprised as John that they had bombs. He did not plan this.

Arlessiar
December 21st, 2006, 02:28 PM
Answering your thoughts on Rodney. I think all of the characters have had bad moments throughout the series, and I certainly don't think Sheppard isn't shown making mistakes, even if they are for what he believes are the right reasons. After all, he woke up the wraith, for example. I also think people can be very hard on Sheppard, more so than towards McKay generally.
I can see where you are coming from. Rodney is often seen as an object of ridicule and is used for comedic purposes. He can be an ass, egotistic, unsympathetic and very insensitive at times. He also saves everyone on a regular basis with his brain, has a good heart and is incredibly amusing. I rather like Rodney's character flaws, just as I like John's. Ok, in real life a character such as Rodney would drive me insane, but on the screen he is very entertaining when used properly, and not over used. I do think TPTB over do the comic stuff sometimes though, and I'd like to see it shared around.
I think the key to this is that Rodney is a very arrogant man, and unfortunately pride comes before a fall. He is very flawed and his behaviour towards his fellow scientists and especially Zelenka, by his own admission, has been appalling. That sort of thing does stick in people's minds. So yes, when the genius makes a mistake, nobody will let him forget it, because he's generally so conceited about his own abilities and puts down others, undervaluing their contributions. He doesn't really mean anything by it, that's true, but many people would find it hard to live with that sort of behaviour. I certainly would in real life.
In contrast, Sheppard gets on well on a superficial level with everyone, and treats everyone pretty fairly. He's amiable and mild-mannered. He's also pretty heroic in terms of putting himself in danger to save others physically and comes up with intelligent plans to save the day too. I guess people find it easier to ignore the flaws of people like that?
Also, don't forget Sheppard is the hero. We all know that TPTB don't want their hero to be seen as flawed in any way. I personally don't agree with that, and neither does Joe Flanigan, but the writers etc. write how they see fit, and unfortunately I can't see that changing. :(
As far as the two boys behaved in the Game, I do think when it was thought to be a game neither did anything wrong as such. But when it was revealed it was all a social experiment, and incidentally I believe the Ancients would have specified that technological advances weren't allowed to happen beyond normal evolution, both McKay and Sheppard should have grown up a little and not bickered. But, I have to say, I really enjoy their bickering and banter, so I was pretty entertained by it all :)
Thanks for this post, Linzi, it contains many true and interesting points I agree with!
Unfortunately I don't have time for a longer answer now, maybe later tomorrow after work. But I wanted to let you know that I read the post already! :)

Bye, A.

LoveConquers
December 21st, 2006, 02:32 PM
Rodney gave his little sims a list of ingredients? I think he was gonna say "that could be used to build a bomb..." with some of those "ingredients" being scientific studies he taught them.

Nola told him he'd taught them two different things, both of which they combined into a bomb.

And Rodney was as surprised as John that they had bombs. He did not plan this.


Of course. We have already established that Rodney did not order them to make a bomb. That is fact in the script. But it is also fact in the script that Rodney gave them a list of ingredients. Anything beyond that is pure speculation. We do not know what his intentions were in providing this list. But it is not a stretch to think that within a context of a game, he would have gone there and just possibly his surprise was from the fact they proceeded without him. It is also of course possible, he had no intention of having them make a bomb. But I find that more disbelievable than believable since in his own words, he gave them a list of bomb ingredients. What were they supposed to do with this list? Bake cookies?

LoveConquers
December 21st, 2006, 02:33 PM
Thanks for this post, Linzi, it contains many true and interesting points I agree with!
Unfortunately I don't have time for a longer answer now, maybe later tomorrow after work. But I wanted to let you know that I read the post already! :)

Bye, A.

Just wanted to say I really liked this post as well, Linzi! Thank you for your insight.

FallenAngelII
December 21st, 2006, 02:33 PM
Of course. We have already established that Rodney did not order them to make a bomb. That is fact in the script. But it is also fact in the script that Rodney gave them a list of ingredients. Anything beyond that is pure speculation. We do not know what his intentions were in providing this list. But it is not a stretch to think that within a context of a game, he would have gone there and just possibly his surprise was from the fact they proceeded without him. It is also of course possible, he had no intention of having them make a bomb. But I find that more disbelievable than believable since in his own words, he gave them a list of bomb ingredients. What were they supposed to do with this list? Bake cookies?
Fireworks. Detergent. Gunpowder, dynamite (for mining). There's lots of ways to use ingredients that would be on a list of ingredients for a bomb.

luvmac
December 21st, 2006, 02:36 PM
The 'game' was a sociological experiment set up by the Ancients. Of course, the Ancients weren't likely to advance the societies at an accelerated pace

We don't know what the development of the societies were around the time of the ancients. If you are going to do an experiment why would you sit around and watch everyone develop at a normal pace? What would you really find out in all of that? In most experiements you have a control or a normal situation and then you do things to other groups to see what you get. Considering that there were thousands of worlds that they were experimenting with and groups of villages/communities that they were communicating with within those worlds chances are that they were giving some of these groups technological information to see what they would do with it and how it would affect not only their community but those around them.



hence their level of developement when discovered by John and Rodney.


Actually we don't know what their society's level of advancement was by the time the ancients left. I think it was mentioned before in the series that the continual destruction by the Wraith not only brought about a giant leap backward by the worlds in the Pegasus galaxy in terms of technology but has kept most of them at a very low level because of the cullings. That's not to say that before the ancients left that some of the world's technology couldn't have rivaled say the people from Earth today.

LoveConquers
December 21st, 2006, 02:36 PM
Fireworks. Detergent. Gunpowder, dynamite (for mining). There's lots of ways to use ingredients that would be on a list of ingredients for a bomb.


And yet they found the most obvious. Big surprise since they were all spelled out on a list.

FallenAngelII
December 21st, 2006, 02:40 PM
And yet they found the most obvious. Big surprise since they were all spelled out on a list.
They weren't morons. Would you be able to construct a perfect bike if someone gave you an instructions manual?

LoveConquers
December 21st, 2006, 02:47 PM
They weren't morons. Would you be able to construct a perfect bike if someone gave you an instructions manual?


With Rodney's training....I would hope so.

And what does that have to do with anything? They were middle aged people who would not have known what to do with a list on their own. That does not make them "morons," as you said, it makes them normal for their time period. Rodney taught them and advanced them to the point where they were able to figure out what to do with a list that he provided.

FallenAngelII
December 21st, 2006, 02:49 PM
With Rodney's training....I would hope so.

And what does that have to do with anything? They were middle aged people who would not have known what to do with a list on their own. That does not make them "morons," as you said, it makes them normal for their time period. Rodney taught them and advanced them to the point where they were able to figure out what to do with a list that he provided.
Being from the middle ages does not make you incapable of learning.

LoveConquers
December 21st, 2006, 02:55 PM
Being from the middle ages does not make you incapable of learning.

Did I not just say that Rodney taught them? That they learned from Rodney? We are going in circles here.