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Luz
December 21st, 2006, 04:05 PM
Did I not just say that Rodney taught them? That they learned from Rodney? We are going in circles here.

Yes you did. ;)

ITA, I think Rodney gave them the list of ingredients and hinted at them being for a bomb, seems from what he said that it was for a future project he had planned, and let's face it, as co-dependent as the villagers were where else would they have gotten the idea that those ingredients were to be used for a weapon but from the oracle?.

LoveConquers
December 21st, 2006, 04:13 PM
Yes you did. ;)

ITA, I think Rodney gave them the list of ingredients and hinted at them being for a bomb, seems from what he said that it was for a future project he had planned, and let's face it, as co-dependent as the villagers were where else would they have gotten the idea that those ingredients were to be used for a weapon but from the oracle?.

Thanks Luz! ;)

I just realized I made a typo and called them "middle-aged people!" LOL! Sorry about that. :)

FallenAngelII
December 21st, 2006, 04:13 PM
Yes you did. ;)

ITA, I think Rodney gave them the list of ingredients and hinted at them being for a bomb, seems from what he said that it was for a future project he had planned, and let's face it, as co-dependent as the villagers were where else would they have gotten the idea that those ingredients were to be used for a weapon but from the oracle?.
Why would Rodney give his Sims a list of ingredients and hint to them it's for a bomb?! And where are you getting this "hinting"-thing from?

LoveConquers
December 21st, 2006, 04:55 PM
Why would Rodney give his Sims a list of ingredients and hint to them it's for a bomb?! And where are you getting this "hinting"-thing from?

Why wouldn't he? It's a game. He wants to win. Which brings me back to my question to you five posts ago. Why would he give them a list of ingredients? The argument that they could do other things with that list is of course possible. My point this entire time has been that it seems more plausible that he gave them a list of bomb ingredients for a reason. If he wanted them to do something else with some of those materials, it is more plausible he would have listed only those materials. But he did not. He spelled out a list for them. As I said, this is all purely speculation at this point. All we know is that he gave them a list. I am simply saying which motivation in the context of the game is more likely?

Again, we are going in circles.

Ltcolshepjumper
December 21st, 2006, 05:28 PM
Its the fact that he gave them a list. Not the ingredients themselves. If he'd given them to them separate then I could understand. But he gave them a list. Lists serve specific purposes. A list of recipe ingredients are for making a recipe. Likewise a list of bomb ingredients are for making a bomb.

psychofilly
December 21st, 2006, 05:30 PM
Why wouldn't he? It's a game. He wants to win. Which brings me back to my question to you five posts ago. Why would he give them a list of ingredients? The argument that they could do other things with that list is of course possible. My point this entire time has been that it seems more plausible that he gave them a list of bomb ingredients for a reason. If he wanted them to do something else with some of those materials, it is more plausible he would have listed only those materials. But he did not. He spelled out a list for them. As I said, this is all purely speculation at this point. All we know is that he gave them a list. I am simply saying which motivation in the context of the game is more likely?

Again, we are going in circles.

Well, he did order them to dig under Hellona and mine the coal. They would probably have to do some blasting for that, but it sounds like they took the ingredients for what would have been a fairly low yeild charge and got all scientific on it and figured out how to make a high yeild charge.

FallenAngelII
December 21st, 2006, 05:39 PM
Well, he did order them to dig under Hellona and mine the coal. They would probably have to do some blasting for that, but it sounds like they took the ingredients for what would have been a fairly low yeild charge and got all scientific on it and figured out how to make a high yeild charge.
I said the exact same thing. I was ignored, though.

psychofilly
December 21st, 2006, 05:48 PM
I said the exact same thing. I was ignored, though.


Must have gotten lost between all the arguing.

It was the first thing I thought. He gave them ingredients for low yeild explosives, like dynamite, but not for a bomb, while it would be a little naieve to not realize they could make a bomb out of it-- except for the fact that he thought they were sims. A computer program would have done what he ordered and nothing more, and I would assume that's why he gave it to them. He had no way of knowing that actuall humans were extrapolating from the basic tools he'd provided them.

LoveConquers
December 21st, 2006, 05:53 PM
Well, he did order them to dig under Hellona and mine the coal. They would probably have to do some blasting for that, but it sounds like they took the ingredients for what would have been a fairly low yeild charge and got all scientific on it and figured out how to make a high yeild charge.

So you find it more plausible that he would give them a list of bomb ingredients with the intention for blasting powder rather than for making a bomb? Even though this list is for a bomb and not for dynomite? Well, I guess that answers the question at least. Obviously, I disagree, especially given the context of it being a game still at this point.

It is purely speculative what his intentions were. It is purely speculative that he gave them as you said, "a fairly low yield charge." There cannot be a right answer on this question. I believe the most obvious answer is the purpose of the list. The mining is a good point, it is possible. But I find it hard to believe it would be his only intention.

LoveConquers
December 21st, 2006, 05:58 PM
I said the exact same thing. I was ignored, though.

Again, please stop making such accusations. You did the same thing last night when I asked for more clarification. Asking for clarification while quoting your post is not ignoring. I have probed into your comments, trying to understand. Making personal accusations is uncalled for.

LoveConquers
December 21st, 2006, 06:01 PM
Must have gotten lost between all the arguing.

It was the first thing I thought. He gave them ingredients for low yeild explosives, like dynamite, but not for a bomb, while it would be a little naieve to not realize they could make a bomb out of it-- except for the fact that he thought they were sims. A computer program would have done what he ordered and nothing more, and I would assume that's why he gave it to them. He had no way of knowing that actuall humans were extrapolating from the basic tools he'd provided them.

I am hardly a weapons expert, so if the ingredients for dynamite and a bomb are basically the same except for the low yield, then this would make much more sense to me. Which is exactly why I have tried to probe further. To understand this viewpoint.

psychofilly
December 21st, 2006, 06:28 PM
So you find it more plausible that he would give them a list of bomb ingredients with the intention for blasting powder rather than for making a bomb? Even though this list is for a bomb and not for dynomite? Well, I guess that answers the question at least. Obviously, I disagree, especially given the context of it being a game still at this point.

Is dynamite, not a bomb?

ETA: NOT being an explosive expert, I checked out the Wiki. Mining requires High explosives, not low yeild explosives like dynamite. So if I were to be correct that Rodney gave them explosives ingredients that they could develop for mining, it would probably be some pretty serious stuff. I amend my statements to say that Rodney would have been aware he was giving them some major tech (and so I do think he was cheating, considering). However, I don't think that one) He thought they were computer characters and so would act within certain parameters and two) The derrigible's were new. I do not think he realized that they were capable of creating both a bomb and effective delivery system.

So, I still think he gave them the ingredients and tech with absolutely no intention for them to make weapons.


From the transcript:

McKAY: Uh, what are you doing?
NOLA: Preparing our counter-attack.
McKAY: What counter-attack?
GARTH: From information you gave us about high-temperature and energetic materials technology, I have constructed a tactical explosive device.
McKAY: A bomb? You actually built a bomb?
NOLA: I told you we’d always be several steps ahead of Baden.
McKAY: How come I didn’t know about this?
NOLA: We have yet to test it, so it still appears to not exist.
GARTH: We will target one of Hallona’s outlying villages.
McKAY: How are you even gonna deliver it? I mean, the catapult couldn’t possibly reach that far.

.....

SHEPPARD: You taught them how to build a bomb?!
McKAY: No! Well, not specifically. Look, OK, maybe I provided them with a list of ingredients but ...




It is purely speculative what his intentions were. It is purely speculative that he gave them as you said, "a fairly low yield charge." There cannot be a right answer on this question. I believe the most obvious answer is the purpose of the list. The mining is a good point, it is possible. But I find it hard to believe it would be his only intention.

Yes, I am speculating that he would give them information on explosive materials for mining specifically, but from the text of the show, Rodney states that he never intend them to build bombs, and it sounds like he merely provided basic info and ingredients thinking they would experiment, not that they would go and build bombs specifically. He built model bombs as a child, remember? It would track that he would give them some basic explosive ingredients to play with. I hoestly don't think he was considering war.

LoveConquers
December 21st, 2006, 06:58 PM
Is dynamite, not a bomb?

From the transcript:






Yes, I am speculating that he would give them information on explosive materials for mining specifically, but from the text of the show, Rodney states that he never intend them to build bombs, and it sounds like he merely provided basic info and ingredients thinking they would experiment, not that they would go and build bombs specifically. He built model bombs as a child, remember? It would track that he would give them some basic explosive ingredients to play with. I hoestly don't think he was considering war.


I do not know. That is what I asked in my last post. Is the only difference the blast range? We do know they had a bomb strong enough to wipe out an entire village. We do not know what level of ingredients Rodney gave them. Obviously the blast range between dynamite and a bomb powerful enough to wipe out an entire village is quite significant. If the ingredients are the same, which it sounds like you're saying they are from your post, then we simply do not know the answer to this. Rodney never stated he did not intend them to build a bomb.
As I stated, your point about it being used for mining is a good suggestion. But I still believe it is also possible Rodney gave them the igredient list for a bomb, not dynamite, with the intention of using it later. I say this because it was still a game at this point, and he wanted to win. I am not saying he wanted to start a war. I am not saying he planned to use it. I am not saying he ordered them to build it, as is obviously not the case from that same dialogue that I just quoted myself a few hours ago. I am saying, as I have said over and over again, I believe it is possible Rodney had every intention to eventually build a bomb. Both he and John at that point were building up their defensive campabilities. Rodney did state he was increasing his army in response to John's increase, which was in response to Rodney's cheating. I do not find it a stretch to think this included a weapons storage. So yes, he was surprised when he found out they built it. But we do not know if that surprise was from the fact that it existed because he never intended it to or because they built it without his order.
As I have said all along, this is all speculation and we cannot know for sure. Again, as I have said all along, I am simply trying to understand your point. Which I now do. The fact that he would give them a list of bomb ingredients without intending to use them as a bomb does not make much sense to me, thus the reason for my probing in the first place. To understand.

psychofilly
December 21st, 2006, 07:11 PM
I do not know. That is what I asked in my last post. If the ingredients are the same, which it sounds like they are from your post, then we simply do not know the answer to this. Rodney never stated he did not intend them to build a bomb.
As I stated, your point about it being used for mining is very possible. But I still believe it is also possible Rodney gave them the igredient list for a bomb, not dynamite, with the intention of using it later. I say this because it was still a game at this point, and he wanted to win. I am not saying he wanted to start a war. But we do not know if that surprise was from the fact that it existed because he never intended it to or because they built it without his order.
As I have said all along, this is all speculation and we cannot know for sure. Again, as I have said all along, I am simply trying to understand your point. Which I now do. The fact that he would give them a list of bomb ingredients without intending to use them as a bomb does not make much sense to me, thus the reason for my probing in the first place. To understand.

Oh, I agree it's just speculation. It's no big deal, but part of my specualtion stems from how Hewlett played the scenes. I feel like it was genuine suprise and that he was simply thinking science, experiments, and mining. However, there is plenty of room for interpretation on both sides.

LoveConquers
December 21st, 2006, 07:20 PM
Oh, I agree it's just speculation. It's no big deal, but part of my specualtion stems from how Hewlett played the scenes. I feel like it was genuine suprise and that he was simply thinking science, experiments, and mining. However, there is plenty of room for interpretation on both sides.

Very true! Thanks for speculating with me! :)

Nolamom
December 21st, 2006, 07:52 PM
We don't know what the development of the societies were around the time of the ancients. If you are going to do an experiment why would you sit around and watch everyone develop at a normal pace? What would you really find out in all of that? In most experiements you have a control or a normal situation and then you do things to other groups to see what you get. Considering that there were thousands of worlds that they were experimenting with and groups of villages/communities that they were communicating with within those worlds chances are that they were giving some of these groups technological information to see what they would do with it and how it would affect not only their community but those around them. Actually, most sociologists merely observe behavior and do not interfere. Take a couple of classes when you get to university. There *is* some value in laboratory experiments with control groups - but this is for testing very specific dependent variables. I suggest that these worlds were set in motion by the ancients and were only tweaked from time to time. From the transcript:

NOLA: Thousands of years ago he gave our ancestors life. He instructed them how to build their society, how to live their lives. His guidance was revered by all. Then one day without warning, the Oracle ceased all communications.
DEX (to John): War with the Wraith.
NOLA: Our people were puzzled by this but they continued to adhere to his instructions, living their lives according to his teachings which they passed down from generation to generation.
(The team stares at another portrait of Rodney on the wall as they pass it.)
TEYLA: Have you not had any trouble with the Wraith?
(Nola stops by yet another portrait.)
NOLA: Yes. They’ve come periodically – culled our people, destroyed our villages. Those who survived rebuilt, but only to the level at which the Oracle had instructed before he left. We found ourselves stalled in our development, unwilling to push forward without the Oracle’s guidance, hoping one day he would return to us.


Actually we don't know what their society's level of advancement was by the time the ancients left. I think it was mentioned before in the series that the continual destruction by the Wraith not only brought about a giant leap backward by the worlds in the Pegasus galaxy in terms of technology but has kept most of them at a very low level because of the cullings. That's not to say that before the ancients left that some of the world's technology couldn't have rivaled say the people from Earth today.
As noted in the transcript above, we know precisely the level of advancement.

YodaMate
December 21st, 2006, 10:23 PM
Psychofilly - thanks for the kind words ! That's an interesting line of thought you pursued ; the kind of control enabled by the Game and the reverence with which the subjects hold the Oracle certainly opens the door to abuse and playing God (a nice tie-in to the themes associated with the Goa'uld) and the people in the Stargate universe who are still actively playing God (besides the Atlantis mission of course) are the Ori.

The tech involved (unless there was more than we saw) seemed relatively simple ; a few sensor satellites and a customised communications console on either end. It could easily have existed in the Alterans' home galaxy before or after the split with the Ori, and the kind of thinking involved in such manipulation may well have helped shape the philosophies of the two Ascended groups (although i'm still under the impression that the Ancients joined a pre-existing Ascended group). Plus, there's another possibility here that could be explored ; what if some of the Atlanteans (fed-up with their helplessness against the Wraith and possibly power-junkies after playing the Game) decided to join the Ori rather than the Others ? Now that would make for an interesting Ori-related storyline in SGA :)

smushybird
December 21st, 2006, 10:47 PM
Am I the only one that sees Rodney becoming a liability?

You could basically make a case that every major character on the show is a liability. I don't see the point in singling out Rodney. At least he's one of the more developed and interesting characters on the show, which is kind of what you want, when it comes to fiction.

Linzi
December 22nd, 2006, 12:05 AM
Oh, I agree it's just speculation. It's no big deal, but part of my specualtion stems from how Hewlett played the scenes. I feel like it was genuine suprise and that he was simply thinking science, experiments, and mining. However, there is plenty of room for interpretation on both sides.
From the way DH played that particular scene, I got the impression that not only was McKay surprised, but that he was also a little miffed that the Geldan's had built bombs without him knowing. After all, the people presumably weren't supposed to do anything of significance without the Oracle's guidance. It is possible that they interpreted the Oracle's list of ingredients for explosives as a go ahead to build bombs though. After all, McKay had taught the Geldan's that technological advancement was the key to everything, so they had taken on his ethos and applied it.
Again, this is why on scifi shows one always sees a prime directive type law which denies advanced technology for cultures who don't develop it themselves. To suddenly give a reasonably backward society, what for them, is advanced technology is dangerous for the very reasons we saw in the show. They don't understand the significance of the technology, and it often leads to destruction of either enemies or themselves.
I do think that the Ancients interfering in other cultures, even if they created them in the first place, puts the Ancients in a bad light. After all, if this was just the Ancient's observing their offspring, why would they give orders and guidance through a machine? Shouldn't they have just let the people develop on their own? It again shows how arrogant the Ancient's could be, because who says their way was the best? Other than them, of course!!

Linzi
December 22nd, 2006, 12:07 AM
Thanks for this post, Linzi, it contains many true and interesting points I agree with!
Unfortunately I don't have time for a longer answer now, maybe later tomorrow after work. But I wanted to let you know that I read the post already! :)

Bye, A.
Awww, thanks! You didn't have to say you read my post! I do enjoy speculating sometimes on the characters. In fact it's pretty difficult to shut me up sometimes..;)

Linzi
December 22nd, 2006, 12:10 AM
Just wanted to say I really liked this post as well, Linzi! Thank you for your insight.
You're welcome. I've really enjoyed our discussions here on this thread. :)

FallenAngelII
December 22nd, 2006, 02:46 AM
Again, please stop making such accusations. You did the same thing last night when I asked for more clarification. Asking for clarification while quoting your post is not ignoring. I have probed into your comments, trying to understand. Making personal accusations is uncalled for.
Actually, I believe I've been saying that for days. Just not repeatedly.

FallenAngelII
December 22nd, 2006, 02:48 AM
I do not know. That is what I asked in my last post. Is the only difference the blast range? We do know they had a bomb strong enough to wipe out an entire village. We do not know what level of ingredients Rodney gave them. Obviously the blast range between dynamite and a bomb powerful enough to wipe out an entire village is quite significant. If the ingredients are the same, which it sounds like you're saying they are from your post, then we simply do not know the answer to this. Rodney never stated he did not intend them to build a bomb.
As I stated, your point about it being used for mining is a good suggestion. But I still believe it is also possible Rodney gave them the igredient list for a bomb, not dynamite, with the intention of using it later. I say this because it was still a game at this point, and he wanted to win. I am not saying he wanted to start a war. I am not saying he planned to use it. I am not saying he ordered them to build it, as is obviously not the case from that same dialogue that I just quoted myself a few hours ago. I am saying, as I have said over and over again, I believe it is possible Rodney had every intention to eventually build a bomb. Both he and John at that point were building up their defensive campabilities. Rodney did state he was increasing his army in response to John's increase, which was in response to Rodney's cheating. I do not find it a stretch to think this included a weapons storage. So yes, he was surprised when he found out they built it. But we do not know if that surprise was from the fact that it existed because he never intended it to or because they built it without his order.
As I have said all along, this is all speculation and we cannot know for sure. Again, as I have said all along, I am simply trying to understand your point. Which I now do. The fact that he would give them a list of bomb ingredients without intending to use them as a bomb does not make much sense to me, thus the reason for my probing in the first place. To understand.
Again, they're smart people. It's not hard for engineers to figure out how to modify mining explosives into a bomb; to increase the blast radius.

RealmOfX
December 22nd, 2006, 03:08 AM
Again, they're smart people. It's not hard for engineers to figure out how to modify mining explosives into a bomb; to increase the blast radius.

There are engineers in Geldar? When did they have the time or the information base to produce an education system to produce engineers??

It's not hard in our society for engineers or any well educated person to build a bomb with instructions. Though it does take someone with more knowledge and talent to take basic information and extrapolate it to do something like increase the yield of an explosion exponentially.

You keep making assumptions based on our current day level of thinking and education and applying it to a more primitive society. You also completely sidestepped the previous posters point.

FallenAngelII
December 22nd, 2006, 03:15 AM
There are engineers in Geldar? When did they have the time or the information base to produce an education system to produce engineers??

It's not hard in our society for engineers or any well educated person to build a bomb with instructions. Though it does take someone with more knowledge and talent to take basic information and extrapolate it to do something like increase the yield of an explosion exponentially.

You keep making assumptions based on our current day level of thinking and education and applying it to a more primitive society. You also completely sidestepped the previous posters point.
It's been over 2 years since Rodney became the Oracle. He's taught them how to build blimps, bikes and ultimately bombs. Of course they have to be smart.

RealmOfX
December 22nd, 2006, 03:44 AM
It's been over 2 years since Rodney became the Oracle. He's taught them how to build blimps, bikes and ultimately bombs. Of course they have to be smart.

There is a difference to being smart and having the education and discipline to take x knowledge and extrapolate it into y knowledge. That is something that requires a long history of knowledge and an intense education system or be a genius with lots of time and money to experiment with new theories.

To get to the point where you are able to create steam enginges requires a phenomenal amount of advancement in metallurgy and making and machining parts. Just like it is a leap to go from your basic gunpowder explosion and being able to create an explosion capable of wiping out a village, something that to me is a very big stretch to happen over two years.

And you are still side stepping the previous poster's point.

david2708
December 22nd, 2006, 04:32 AM
I haven't seen the ep nor read all 11 pages. All I need to know is if the ep is the usual lightweight fluff that expect from Gate these days. Is there anything of substance, or is it a who said the funniest line to whom discussion?

prion
December 22nd, 2006, 04:38 AM
There are engineers in Geldar? When did they have the time or the information base to produce an education system to produce engineers??

It's not hard in our society for engineers or any well educated person to build a bomb with instructions. Though it does take someone with more knowledge and talent to take basic information and extrapolate it to do something like increase the yield of an explosion exponentially.

You keep making assumptions based on our current day level of thinking and education and applying it to a more primitive society. You also completely sidestepped the previous posters point.

I hate to say it, but a housewife could make a bomb out of what's under the kitchen sink (remembering the infamous 20/20 which showed you how to do it!).

The Geldar folk (or at least a couple of 'em) are smart cookies. It's like dumping a jigsaw puzzle in front of someone. Some folk will go huh? and others will go oh! and put it together.

While Rodney may have given them advanced scientific knowledge, I definitely got the impression "we made a bomb" shocked the hell out of him as I'm sure whatever he gave them was for advancing society, not blowing up the neighbors.

But in conclusion, both Shep and McKay were playing a game. If they'd realized in the beginning they were playing with REAL people, they sure as hell wouldn't have been increasing army size. It was, to them, simply a game.

Elinor
December 22nd, 2006, 05:04 AM
I haven't seen the ep nor read all 11 pages. All I need to know is if the ep is the usual lightweight fluff that expect from Gate these days. Is there anything of substance, or is it a who said the funniest line to whom discussion?

Well, there wasn't a lot to get your teeth into, but if you like the Shep/McKay friendship you'll probably enjoy it.

Another bit I found hilarious in this one....Shep dragging Rodney by his tac vest!!! 'Come on already'!!!

http://www.clicksmilies.com/s1106/lachen/laughing-smiley-003.gif

caty
December 22nd, 2006, 05:04 AM
There are engineers in Geldar? When did they have the time or the information base to produce an education system to produce engineers??

It's not hard in our society for engineers or any well educated person to build a bomb with instructions. Though it does take someone with more knowledge and talent to take basic information and extrapolate it to do something like increase the yield of an explosion exponentially.

You keep making assumptions based on our current day level of thinking and education and applying it to a more primitive society. You also completely sidestepped the previous posters point.

That's exactly the type of wrong thinking some people keep making...
I pointed it out in 'Irresponsible' that you can't just call all the people stupid morons for 'worshipping' Lucius when they shouldn't have. It was way before our time and people just think along different lines in different centuries..
You can't just apply our way of thinking on people who are obviously centuries behind...

Luz
December 22nd, 2006, 06:08 AM
But in conclusion, both Shep and McKay were playing a game. If they'd realized in the beginning they were playing with REAL people, they sure as hell wouldn't have been increasing army size. It was, to them, simply a game.
That's why I can't really get worked up over whether Rodney did indeed provide to them the list with the purpose of later telling them how to build a bomb.
Because even if he did he thought it was a game, he didn't intent to hurt real people, all he wanted was to outplay Sheppard. And Sheppard wanted to outplay McKay.

ETA: And Sheppard might get a bit carried out on occasion, and McKay might be a tad arrogant, but in the end they're good guys with good intentions who didn't want to hurt anyone, and as you say, if they'd known those people were real they wouldn't have played with them.

Linzi
December 22nd, 2006, 08:08 AM
That's why I can't really get worked up over whether Rodney did indeed provide to them the list with the purpose of later telling them how to build a bomb.
Because even if he did he thought it was a game, he didn't intent to hurt real people, all he wanted was to outplay Sheppard. And Sheppard wanted to outplay McKay.

ETA: And Sheppard might get a bit carried out on occasion, and McKay might be a tad arrogant, but in the end they're good guys with good intentions who didn't want to hurt anyone, and as you say, if they'd known those people were real they wouldn't have played with them.
Agreed. :)

Nolamom
December 22nd, 2006, 09:28 AM
I haven't seen the ep nor read all 11 pages. All I need to know is if the ep is the usual lightweight fluff that expect from Gate these days. Is there anything of substance, or is it a who said the funniest line to whom discussion?

Actually, there has been quite a bit of substantive discussion. Certainly more than a "funniest line" episode. There were some deep moral implications raised in this episode and although Sheppard and McKay began by playing a game, as soon as they realized that it was the manipulation of real societies, their demeanor radically changed.

FallenAngelII
December 22nd, 2006, 09:59 AM
Actually, there has been quite a bit of substantive discussion. Certainly more than a "funniest line" episode. There were some deep moral implications raised in this episode and although Sheppard and McKay began by playing a game, as soon as they realized that it was the manipulation of real societies, their demeanor radically changed.
Except John kept whining about cheating again and again and again. Immature, out of place and out of character. Especially since Baten was standing right there.

LoveConquers
December 22nd, 2006, 10:30 AM
Actually, I believe I've been saying that for days. Just not repeatedly.


Now you want to argue over how long you've been insulting me? *sigh* This conversation is over.

LoveConquers
December 22nd, 2006, 10:32 AM
That's why I can't really get worked up over whether Rodney did indeed provide to them the list with the purpose of later telling them how to build a bomb.
Because even if he did he thought it was a game, he didn't intent to hurt real people, all he wanted was to outplay Sheppard. And Sheppard wanted to outplay McKay.

ETA: And Sheppard might get a bit carried out on occasion, and McKay might be a tad arrogant, but in the end they're good guys with good intentions who didn't want to hurt anyone, and as you say, if they'd known those people were real they wouldn't have played with them.

Thanks Luz! Very good point all the way around!

FallenAngelII
December 22nd, 2006, 10:46 AM
Now you want to argue over how long you've been insulting me? *sigh* This conversation is over.
I haven't insulted you. Not once.

You said I'd said it only a day ago. I pointed out how I've been saying it for days. And you try to switch tracks by claiming I've been insulting you.

Freek
December 22nd, 2006, 11:06 AM
I liked this ep a lot, but I do think its time for the serious Wraith threat to return as a sort of impending danger whenever they visit a world (basically what they had in S1, where they were all kinda fed up cuz the wraith could show up any moment)

OneSarcasticChick
December 22nd, 2006, 01:00 PM
not to beat a dead horse... ;)

but all the same, didn't anyone question...

BADEN: Why won’t you help us?
SHEPPARD: I’m not shooting down any more ships. We’re done helping you wage this war.
BADEN: Then we’ll shoot them down ourselves.
TEYLA: How?
(Baden turns to his aide and nods. She walks away.)
BADEN: Our weapons are not as primitive as Nola believes.

granted, he didn't say 'we built a bomb'. however, the hallonans appear to be more advanced than teyla, specifically, was aware based on what she'd assumed from the 'village'.

could be different reasons

- the weapon's a catapault or some other various tech appropriate for the time. however, speculating based on teyla's response, i'd gather she hadn't figured they had anything capable of taking down flying tech.

- sheppard could have 'helped' the military of hallonan (cheated?).

- hallonan thought on their own and advanced their own tech.

we're assuming, like others have pointed out, that the villages were filled with morons (perhaps even teyla fell into the assuming 'they're just peacefull farmers' genii trap again). however, a) radek stated that other 'countries' had advanced without an oracle. and b) aqueducts. pyramids. gunpowder. arches. domes. leonardo da vinci. etc... there have been amazing feats performed by 'less advanced' minds (meaning, sarcastically, not modern day or 'us'). the villagers were people, capable of thought, imagination, etc...not SIMs or binary. rodney no more thought that, based on what he had given, they would extrapolate a bomb than sheppard the hallonan's more advanced weaponry (if john didn't cheat as well).

so...what's the argument? the boys were playing what they thought was binary. created a star with their turtles. the escalation to war was both their faults and yet not as well. we can't put full blame on them anymore than we can call the villagers SIMs. the people of the villages had a free will and chose war. the boys might have helped it along, but the 2 countries built their weaponry on their own, planned on their own, never questioned what the oracle said (citrus toxic when possibly at one time, it wasn't considered toxic), stubbornly refused to negotiate and moved their armies as they chose.

IWKYZerocool
December 22nd, 2006, 01:16 PM
The second half of Atlantis is just getting better and better, really enjoyed watching this episode, liked the fake battle at the end, and Sheppard kicking Mckay's a**e in chess.

caty
December 22nd, 2006, 01:48 PM
Never once have I said John's entirely at fault. In almost every single post, I've pointed out that Rodney was at fault as well, but it was John who pushed for the more aggresive approaches to things, which eventually lead to war.




You know, after watching it again, I can't believe how you could possibly blame Sheppard for being 'juvenile' and 'war-mongering' while you don't say a word about Rodney in that respect.

In the conversation he had with Nola in the mess hall, he acted very juvenile when she was talking about 'progress' and that they shouldn't yield to Hallona one bit in fear of taking a 'giant step backwards'.. He smiled smugly and even nodded his head a little... Not exactly trying hard to convince Nola that a war is not an option they should take.. And exactly the same thing Shep did in his conversation with Baden when he didn't try to lie to him about what he would do if their roles were reversed (which was why you keep insisting John was war-mongering)
And when Rodney and Ronon are back in Geldar and Baden's army attacks. Geldars army is retreating without a fight and Rodney said "no that can't be right" and "what kind of army is that?"
Trying very hard to prevent blood shed and an open war now, isn't he?

No matter how you twist and turn it, you can't possibly blame either Rodney or John more than the other. They were both equally at fault and as you so often put it, equally 'juvenile'.

Nolamom
December 22nd, 2006, 02:28 PM
A few representative posts, taken somewhat at random...

Does anyone else feel that the entire war was most John's fault? Rodney was giving his people technology, yes, but John immediately interpreted that as them planning to one day overthrow his people.
<snip>
Sure, Rodney did things that set things in motion. But every single time, it was John's reactions that triggered the inevitable war.

Had John not been as immature and war-hawky, they would still have had peace, only with a botched trade treaty.


While Rodney would surely want his people to "beat" Sheppard's when it comes to prosperity, he would never ever have attacked Sheppard's people.



From what we heard about the episode, Rodney had no interest in involving the military 'til John doubled his army.

BADEN: You built an army too!
NOLA: Only in response to your aggression.
BADEN: My aggression? You dig a mine beneath our border to steal our coal and you have the nerve to talk about aggression!
NOLA: We’re not stealing your coal.
BADEN: You crossed into our land!
NOLA: What do you need it for anyway? It’s not like you know the first thing about what to do with it.


Not even Rodney saw what they did with that technology. The only act of aggression Rodney did was to steal John's coal, but that was only way after John increased his army.
level and instead turned their nation into a war-nation.



He could at least have negotiated. From what I got from the episode, John got offended by Rodney's initial offer and then refused all furhter negotiation. Of course, that's Rodney's fault.

You said so yourself. John prepared his country for the worst case scenario. It was that preparation that inevitably lead to war. Had he not done it, they still be two countries in peace with some tension over a botched deal instead of wanting to rip each other's throats out.

John also inflamed it further with the gifts that he knew Rodney was allergic to (be it for fun or not).

Of course they both thought it was a game, but you must admit that had John not sent those gifts or prepared for war, which prompted Rodney to respond, the war would not have come to be.



Never once have I said John's entirely at fault. In almost every single post, I've pointed out that Rodney was at fault as well, but it was John who pushed for the more aggresive approaches to things, which eventually lead to war.

Perhaps not entirely, but the lion's share of the blame certainly has been laid at John's door.

Dang, promised myself not to get sucked in again...

LoveConquers
December 22nd, 2006, 02:36 PM
I haven't insulted you. Not once.

You said I'd said it only a day ago. I pointed out how I've been saying it for days. And you try to switch tracks by claiming I've been insulting you.

I have asked you more than once not to direct your sarcasm at me personally. You made a sarcastic comment directed to me about not reading your posts and then later about ignoring your posts in my answers. You can be sarcastic about the show all you want, but it is inappropriate to direct that sarcasm personally at a fellow member. Whether you intended it be or not, I found your comments to be arrogant, demeaning, insinuitive, and completely untrue. I ignored the first comment, I politely asked you to stop after the second one. Yet you repeated it two more times. So I again politely asked you to stop and stated I wished to end this conversation. Yet you persist again.
I am only answering this one more time because you have apparently failed to understand my requests to stop. And if my requests to please stop were not clear, then I am making them clear now. I find your personal sarcasm to me to be rude and insulting and inappropriate. Please do not continue. If you wish to persue this further, than please take it up with a mod.

Nolamom
December 22nd, 2006, 02:38 PM
You know what? There really are "rules" mentioned about the game in the transcript:
McKAY: I did not cheat. Look, nowhere in the rules did it specifically outlaw the development of flying machines – only the degree and speed of technological advancement.
SHEPPARD (furiously): Well, they advanced pretty damned fast, didn’t they?

I postulate that these "rules" were at least bent...hehehe

LoveConquers
December 22nd, 2006, 02:41 PM
You know what? There really are "rules" mentioned about the game in the transcript:
McKAY: I did not cheat. Look, nowhere in the rules did it specifically outlaw the development of flying machines – only the degree and speed of technological advancement.
SHEPPARD (furiously): Well, they advanced pretty damned fast, didn’t they?

I postulate that these "rules" were at least bent...hehehe

Oh, I completely missed that! Good catch! Thanks for posting it! :) While still vague, it does suggest John's accusations of cheating had some sort of basis. Maybe not broken, but possibly bent as you said so well. :)

Atlantean_Fan
December 22nd, 2006, 02:45 PM
I liked this episode a lot. I actually read through all this thread, I know, I'm crazy. Now I want to address a few issues some of you brought up.

1) We know Baten said that their weapons weren't as primitive as Nola believed, I agree with the person who said that they could have learned how to make more advanced weaponry once they noticed they would need them or John told them because of Geldar's unfair tech advantages and I do think that John helped them a bit in order to achieve that too, but he did not inflate his people tech as Rodney did, he kept to "the rules" and gave perhaps better arrows or catapults which is tech of that period and can put down a hot air balloon which was Geldars greatest tech and their best way to deploy their weapons and trops. Sheppard IMHO is smarter than he lets show most of the time and I have kept an opinion to myself that he may have a geeky side that would make McKay jealous. In trinity, for example, it seemed he know exactly what Rodney and Zelenka were talking about with the exotic particles and whatnot. I believe he could've taught them to advance their weaponry, but not as much as Rodney advanced the Geldars. I mean they wouldn't have bombs or dirregibles, but they would have ways to destroy one, as stated above. In some games you tell your sim people what kind of weaponry they should build when you increase your army, I believe the same option was available here and John used it, the same way Rodney was planning to use it latter with the bombs.

2) There was a heated discussion about how it would be suicide for the Hallonans to go to war with the Geldars. I disagree. Example USA x Vietnam. Having superior tech doesn't automaticly give you victory if you don't know how to use it well against your enemy or your enemy just knows how to use their inferior tech better against you. It's the whole undertone of Ancient x Wraith coming to light here. Focusing just on one thing will not give you victory, finding balance between your skills will. In this sense, I strongly believe the Hallonans were better prepared and in a real scenario would've won the war.

3) I beleive that Rodney was also more responsible for starting the tension. Here is a list of everything he did: gave Geldar unfair tech level (cheated); sent a list of demands instead of treading like an adult, probably because he thought John would have to give in eventually because of his people's superior tech; taught his people to be allergic to everything, what brought problems during negotiations; and most important invaded John's territory which is not excusable at all. People have argued that the Hallonans didn't use the coal, but how do you know that? The way Baten reacted when he said they were invading to steel their natural resources, it didn't seem that way to me. In other words, Rodney acted and John reacted by increasing his army which he knows is something that worked even against the what everyone still believes to be the greastest race that ever lived amongst the stars, why not for his people, especially if he was also boosting their weapons tech within game parameters (not cheating)?

4) I actually liked how they resolved the conflict with the simulation being sent down by the Daedalus. It fitted with the overall theme of the episode.

5) I don't think the Ancients used those consoles to control the lives of the people, but to help them advance at a natural pace. I consider the Oracle tech as I'd consider going to school. It's a means of teaching and keeping on par with the development of their students as they grew up. I don't think they used it all the time or that they even used it as much as Sheppard and McKay did. Perhaps once an Ancient generation? That could be as long as 150 years if we take the Jaffa's lifetime as bases and Ancients were more phisically evolved, so it could be even longer than that between checks, what would explain the unknown advancement of the Wraith since we don't know exactly where their homeworld is. People talk about the Game giving power to the one that uses it. It does indeed, specially if you're an earthling and have no power at all, it wouldn't have the same appealing to the Ancients since they were already all powerful in the greater scheme of things even before Ascension reaserch gave some fruits, so why would they bother further than to use the tech as a teaching device? The thing here is they already had the power that we don't have.

On to the shallower things now:
1) I loved the banter between Sheppard and McKay, though at some points I considered it rather childish in nature. John didn't need to say that Rodney cheated in almost every scene they were together and with Nola and Baten present too, but Rodney didn't portray that much better either, IMHO. They both acted like kids.

2) Loved the chess scene. Made me remember that dialogue in Intruder when Rodney said that it was hard to find challenging chess oponents, seems like he found one in Sheppard and a tough one at that since it seemed he won even in their first game. Rodney said he wanted a best of ten because he couldn't give in that Sheppard had won him.

3) Loved the Zelenka/Lorne power trip in the console room. I love them as characters. I liked Elizabeth here too, she finally showed a little of skill. I was waiting for that for a long time since I hated her in Condemned.

Great episode. I like the stand alone and the arc episodes equally as long as they aren't really bad and this one was far from being bad.

Lauriel
December 22nd, 2006, 03:06 PM
I really enjoyed this episode.

Like many others have mentioned - I liked the McKay/Shep friendship. I also liked the repitition of their arguements through Badon and Nola in the conference room with Elizabeth.

Lorne and Zalenka were cute too.

I really liked the character interaction and development. I loved seeing Elizabeth use her diplomacy and leadership skills.


As far as I'm concerned, except for the one episode I didn't think much of, season 3 has been fantastic. I hope they continue to write and produce episodes such as this one, Echoes and CG. :D :D

Ltcolshepjumper
December 22nd, 2006, 07:24 PM
You know what? There really are "rules" mentioned about the game in the transcript:
McKAY: I did not cheat. Look, nowhere in the rules did it specifically outlaw the development of flying machines – only the degree and speed of technological advancement.
SHEPPARD (furiously): Well, they advanced pretty damned fast, didn’t they?

I postulate that these "rules" were at least bent...hehehe

Thought so. Sooo... Mckay did cheat, sort of.

FallenAngelII
December 23rd, 2006, 02:19 AM
Nolamom: What does the Geldarians digging a mine have to do with the doubling of the Hallonian army? Baten only discovered the mine after they discovered it wasn't a game. So unless John really is an oracle...


I have asked you more than once not to direct your sarcasm at me personally.
What sarcasm? Quote my posts and highlight this sarcasm, please. I missed those request (because I filter posts. Because of the many posts that reply to me in this thread, I stopped reading posts that don't name me or quote me a long time ago).


You know what? There really are "rules" mentioned about the game in the transcript:
McKAY: I did not cheat. Look, nowhere in the rules did it specifically outlaw the development of flying machines – only the degree and speed of technological advancement.
SHEPPARD (furiously): Well, they advanced pretty damned fast, didn’t they?

I postulate that these "rules" were at least bent...hehehe
The rules apparentely say that they might not make huge leaps in technology. That's a pretty general rule that doesn't really say much. It's not really cheating if the game itself allows it.


You know, after watching it again, I can't believe how you could possibly blame Sheppard for being 'juvenile' and 'war-mongering' while you don't say a word about Rodney in that respect.

In the conversation he had with Nola in the mess hall, he acted very juvenile when she was talking about 'progress' and that they shouldn't yield to Hallona one bit in fear of taking a 'giant step backwards'.. He smiled smugly and even nodded his head a little... Not exactly trying hard to convince Nola that a war is not an option they should take.. And exactly the same thing Shep did in his conversation with Baden when he didn't try to lie to him about what he would do if their roles were reversed (which was why you keep insisting John was war-mongering)
And when Rodney and Ronon are back in Geldar and Baden's army attacks. Geldars army is retreating without a fight and Rodney said "no that can't be right" and "what kind of army is that?"
Trying very hard to prevent blood shed and an open war now, isn't he?

No matter how you twist and turn it, you can't possibly blame either Rodney or John more than the other. They were both equally at fault and as you so often put it, equally 'juvenile'.
While in the mess hall, Rodney tried to dissuade Nola from actions that would lead to war.

Rodney: Listen, you need to make peace with the people of Hallona. If tension keeps rising like this, it might lead to war. There can be no future without peace.
Nola: As soon as the people of Hallona either conceede or get out of our way, peace will be restored.
~~~ * Rodney looks exasperated * ~~~ (he obviously doesn't like that)

Umm... what episode were you watching? "Smug" smirk? Look at his "smirk". It's a nervous smile (just look at his eyes) followed by a concerned look. And there's no nodding.

I give you that the "What kind of an army is that?!"-comment was weird but I doubt it was in the interest of war-mongering. I think he'd reacted like that if the Geldarian army had done the same. It's just very Rodney.

Before and after that, he was trying with all his might to prevent war.

Meanwhile, John was still stuck up on Rodney's "cheating" (though at least now he wasn't complaining about it around Baten).

By the way, we haven't really discussed Rodney's "cheating" in-depth. From what we know, he gave his people bikes, steam engines and blimps in over two and a half years of real life time. Now, in a Real Time Strategy game, you advance "pretty fast". 2 1/2 years of real time would equal a few centuries, if not millennia of game time.

Or, what, was Rodney supposed to be playing the game as if it were real time, waiting 100 years before advancing them each step?

Let me remind you of our own history of advancement, by the way. We had 500 years of dark ages where all technology was heresy. Then, once those 500 years were gone, we advanced "pretty damn fast" in a few hundred years 'til we reached the 1700s (or was it 1800s?). From there, it snowballed and went damn fast.

I love John, but just because he says something doesn't make it so.

So is it really cheating to advance a group of people by, oh, say, 500 years in two and a half years of real time?

How long would you have waited to give your villagers some technology? 10 years?

caty
December 23rd, 2006, 12:48 PM
While in the mess hall, Rodney tried to dissuade Nola from actions that would lead to war.

Rodney: Listen, you need to make peace with the people of Hallona. If tension keeps rising like this, it might lead to war. There can be no future without peace.
Nola: As soon as the people of Hallona either conceede or get out of our way, peace will be restored.
~~~ * Rodney looks exasperated * ~~~ (he obviously doesn't like that)

Umm... what episode were you watching? "Smug" smirk? Look at his "smirk". It's a nervous smile (just look at his eyes) followed by a concerned look. And there's no nodding.

I give you that the "What kind of an army is that?!"-comment was weird but I doubt it was in the interest of war-mongering. I think he'd reacted like that if the Geldarian army had done the same. It's just very Rodney.

Before and after that, he was trying with all his might to prevent war.

Meanwhile, John was still stuck up on Rodney's "cheating" (though at least now he wasn't complaining about it around Baten).



What episode was I watching? Just keep you ridiculous sarcasm out of your posts, it doesn't add any to your believability ;)

In the very scene you are quoting, Rodney had the same look than John did when he was talking to Baden and Baden asked him to be honest...
Rodney sees that what Nola said is something he'd agree on and doesn't do anything to make her see that war shouldn't be an option at that point..
You can quote what he said before all you want. I can also quote John when he had a talk with Baden:
BADEN: What are you saying – we should capitulate, let them do whatever they want?
SHEPPARD: No. You make a deal, trade – say, you decide to share some of your weaponry and they in turn give you some of their technology.

He was trying to give them other options to Baden ( I can't see any war-mongering here).
Both of them could have done more to prevent this (whereas I think Noal and Baden would have looked right through it if they had tried to lie) and it is beyond me why you so desperately want to put more of the blame on John than on Rodney :confused:

expendable_crewman
December 23rd, 2006, 12:48 PM
Nolamom: What does the Geldarians digging a mine have to do with the doubling of the Hallonian army? Baten only discovered the mine after they discovered it wasn't a game. So unless John really is an oracle...


What sarcasm? Quote my posts and highlight this sarcasm, please. I missed those request (because I filter posts. Because of the many posts that reply to me in this thread, I stopped reading posts that don't name me or quote me a long time ago).


The rules apparentely say that they might not make huge leaps in technology. That's a pretty general rule that doesn't really say much. It's not really cheating if the game itself allows it.


While in the mess hall, Rodney tried to dissuade Nola from actions that would lead to war.

Rodney: Listen, you need to make peace with the people of Hallona. If tension keeps rising like this, it might lead to war. There can be no future without peace.
Nola: As soon as the people of Hallona either conceede or get out of our way, peace will be restored.
~~~ * Rodney looks exasperated * ~~~ (he obviously doesn't like that)

Umm... what episode were you watching? "Smug" smirk? Look at his "smirk". It's a nervous smile (just look at his eyes) followed by a concerned look. And there's no nodding.

I give you that the "What kind of an army is that?!"-comment was weird but I doubt it was in the interest of war-mongering. I think he'd reacted like that if the Geldarian army had done the same. It's just very Rodney.

Before and after that, he was trying with all his might to prevent war.

Meanwhile, John was still stuck up on Rodney's "cheating" (though at least now he wasn't complaining about it around Baten).

By the way, we haven't really discussed Rodney's "cheating" in-depth. From what we know, he gave his people bikes, steam engines and blimps in over two and a half years of real life time. Now, in a Real Time Strategy game, you advance "pretty fast". 2 1/2 years of real time would equal a few centuries, if not millennia of game time.

Or, what, was Rodney supposed to be playing the game as if it were real time, waiting 100 years before advancing them each step?

Let me remind you of our own history of advancement, by the way. We had 500 years of dark ages where all technology was heresy. Then, once those 500 years were gone, we advanced "pretty damn fast" in a few hundred years 'til we reached the 1700s (or was it 1800s?). From there, it snowballed and went damn fast.

I love John, but just because he says something doesn't make it so.

So is it really cheating to advance a group of people by, oh, say, 500 years in two and a half years of real time?

How long would you have waited to give your villagers some technology? 10 years?Sheppard appeared to interpret the rule about giving technology differently than McKay. Sheppard called it cheating. Within the context of the ep, it seemed like cheating to me too.

Whether it was or wasn't will be in the eye of the beholder, i.e., the viewer. I don't agree with the examples that are supposed to show why McKay wasn't cheating, but if they work for others, great.

We already know how the characters felt about it.

McKay appeared to be pushing it a little. More importantly, he seemed aware that he was pushing it.

The way you make things go boom varies significantly based on the application and delivery system. Do the writers know this? Is it even relevant to the ep? I wasn't sure Nola should have been able to make a big bang, delivered by a derrigible, based on what she'd have for mining, so I let it go. Within the context of the ep, she did because the story needed her to do it.

I saw Sheppard and McKay playing a game with no intention of hurting anyone and later trying to make it right. I'm not sure I want to blame either of them, but certainly not one more than the other, regardless of Sheppard's complaining about McKay and vice versa.

I like the comment about Nola and Baden actually being responsible for the choices they made, as they weren't shown in the ep to be automatons.

And FallenAngelII, about you getting sarcastic in your posts, please, that ship has sailed.

Falcon Horus
December 23rd, 2006, 03:38 PM
Seen it, and I wasn't at all impressed.

The only fun thing -> Lorne and Zelenka.

The highlight of the episode -> Zelenka's face when he's explaining "the game" to Elizabeth, the moral dilemma at the beginning where Rodney is talked into a corner, Lorne & Zelenka arguing, ...

Downside -> it was the McKay/Sheppard show once again.

Hopefully next episode will reach Echoes-levels again...

FallenAngelII
December 23rd, 2006, 09:03 PM
It is beyond me why you so desperately want to put more of the blame on John than on Rodney :confused:
Because I do not remember ever seeing Rodney constantly bicker about John in front of Nola (like the way John kept bickering about Rodney "cheating").


And FallenAngelII, about you getting sarcastic in your posts, please, that ship has sailed.
When someone accused me of being sarcastic (towards them, because I don't think I've ever seen anyone become insulted by me being sarcastic towards someone else)(and somehow insultive about it), they should have to be able to point out where and when I was being sarcastic (towards them).

Especially if they've apparentely reported me to the mods about it.

Linzi
December 23rd, 2006, 11:22 PM
What episode was I watching? Just keep you ridiculous sarcasm out of your posts, it doesn't add any to your believability ;)

I agree, Caty. Asking which episode someone is watching when you see a scene differently from them is rude, pointless, and extremely condescending.
I think some posters look at their favourite characters through rose-coloured specs, and always want to blame another character for their favourite's shortcomings. Though why anyone would need to do that is beyond me. Sheppard is my favourite character in the show, yet I have no problem admitting his shortcomings. I maintain nobody was more at fault here. The reason Shep whined about McKay cheating so much? Because Shep is quite a moral sort of person, and cheating in a game to win would be a hollow victory for him, I think. I can't stand cheating in games either.
I don't think anyone was war-mongering here, certainly not Sheppard who tried so hard to dissuade Baden from launching an attack, and then, as I said, actually came up with a plan using the futility and consequences of war to show both countries the error of their ways. Guess what? Sheppard's plan actually worked. He cleaned up both of their messes.
However, the fact remains that this was all an innocent game, so as discussed before, all of this blame stuff is futile. How can you criticise someone for their conduct when playing a computer game? Well, unless they cheat, I suppose ;) (Only kidding!)

FallenAngelII
December 24th, 2006, 12:21 AM
I agree, Caty. Asking which episode someone is watching when you see a scene differently from them is rude, pointless, and extremely condescending.
But not sarcasm. You claimed I was being sarcastic. Not the same thing.

The fact remains that it wasn't a smug smile and I don't see how anyone can perceive it as such. Caty, please tell me, do you still think Rodney's smile was smug? And that he nodded?


I think some posters look at their favourite characters through rose-coloured specs, and always want to blame another character for their favourite's shortcomings. Though why anyone would need to do that is beyond me.
Believe me, I've blamed Rodney for a lot of things and I've always maintained that he isn't a perfect character. But he's easy prey for blame because of his personality.


Sheppard is my favourite character in the show, yet I have no problem admitting his shortcomings. I maintain nobody was more at fault here. The reason Shep whined about McKay cheating so much? Because Shep is quite a moral sort of person, and cheating in a game to win would be a hollow victory for him, I think. I can't stand cheating in games either.
Um... if someone cheated in a game, would you whine about it, oh, 6 times in the same day in front of someone who's about to go to war over said "cheating"?

I don't think the incessant whining had anything to do with (or at least it wasn't purely because of) John's moral stance on cheating.


I don't think anyone was war-mongering here, certainly not Sheppard who tried so hard to dissuade Baden from launching an attack, and then, as I said, actually came up with a plan using the futility and consequences of war to show both countries the error of their ways. Guess what? Sheppard's plan actually worked. He cleaned up both of their messes.
However, the fact remains that this was all an innocent game, so as discussed before, all of this blame stuff is futile. How can you criticise someone for their conduct when playing a computer game? Well, unless they cheat, I suppose ;) (Only kidding!)
I never said John wanted the war to happen. I said his attitude, fostered by a military life, makes him always jump to a military solution. This lead to the increase in the military on both sides (and no doubt that seeded some ill will).

And it doesn't matter that John's ingenious plan (no matter how suspicious it is that the Daedalus is suddenly able to simulate a full-scale war somehow) worked. It doesn't absolve him from what he might or might not have done prior to it.

If I slaughter all of Atlantis and then go on to save the galaxy from the Wraith, I will still have just slaughtered all of Atlantis.

You aren't remembered for your best deeds, you're remembered for the worst (if these overshadow your best). If someone saves 1000 people from a burning building but end up doing something that results in a catastrophic failure that kills 10,000 people, the latter is what they'll be remembered by.

Linzi
December 24th, 2006, 01:00 AM
But not sarcasm. You claimed I was being sarcastic. Not the same thing.

The fact remains that it wasn't a smug smile and I don't see how anyone can perceive it as such. Caty, please tell me, do you still think Rodney's smile was smug? And that he nodded?
Er, I didn't claim you were being sarcastic. I said you were being rude and condescending towards Caty. (See my previous post)



Believe me, I've blamed Rodney for a lot of things and I've always maintained that he isn't a perfect character. But he's easy prey for blame because of his personality.
Well, yes. Rodney's personality DOES make him easy prey, because he can be arrogant, conceited and, er, condescending. Not personality traits that many people admire. Does that excuse him somehow? Your attitude is, "Well, McKay can't help it because that's the way he is!", and posters are being mean to him, when it's not his fault. If one applies your argument that Rodney is easy prey because of his flaws, can one not equally say the same for Sheppard. How are his flaws his fault? Why should he be more open to criticism than McKay? Incidentally I do believe, in RL, that we are all accountable for our behaviour and the way we treat others. Just because a person is very bright, or very angry or whatever, does not give them the right to automatic forgiveness if their behaviour is hurtful to others, or rude for that matter either.



Um... if someone cheated in a game, would you whine about it, oh, 6 times in the same day in front of someone who's about to go to war over said "cheating"?
Absolutely. I personally HATE cheats with a vengeance. Why? Because cheating isn't fair.




I don't think the incessant whining had anything to do with (or at least it wasn't purely because of) John's moral stance on cheating.
Don't you? I do. Guess we'll have to disagree on that one then. Nothing new there then...;)



I never said John wanted the war to happen. I said his attitude, fostered by a military life, makes him always jump to a military solution. This lead to the increase in the military on both sides (and no doubt that seeded some ill will).
Well, if that's how you feel, and you're saying that Shep's attitude is partly down to his military life, why are you constantly criticising him then? Because, surely, he can't help the circumstances of that aspect of his personality anymore than Rodney can help his personality. How can you criticise a character for acting the way they've been trained to act, and in the next breath say that's how he is because he's been trained to act in a military way?
However, Shep fortifying his people's army was in response to McKay giving his people technological advancement. What would have happened if the PJ hadn't shot down the airship with the bomb on it? Hallona would've lost thousands of citizens because of a bomb the Geldans made from information passed onto them by McKay. Hallona would've easily won the war. Building armies isn't the only way to war monger. Saying that McKay only gave them technology and didn't tell the Geldan's how to build a bomb, so that's ok, is saying the scientist who first learnt how to split the atom in this world is free of culpability, because, hey, who knew someone would actually take his idea, build a bomb and use is against others. With information and technology comes a powerful responsibility. If that power is used unwisely, civillisations not advanced enough to handle the implications make mistakes. And, no way, in two years, would the Geldan's have the maturity to understand the implications of their bombs. After all, they'd never seen war first hand, had they? Also, if McKay hadn't ordered the Geldan's to drill into Hallona and steal coal no military action would have been ordered by Baden.




And it doesn't matter that John's ingenious plan (no matter how suspicious it is that the Daedalus is suddenly able to simulate a full-scale war somehow) worked. It doesn't absolve him from what he might or might not have done prior to it.

If I slaughter all of Atlantis and then go on to save the galaxy from the Wraith, I will still have just slaughtered all of Atlantis.
Yes, it does matter that Sheppard's plan worked. Why? Because it showed that he doesn't approve of war, and will do everything he can to avoid it. And, what is there to absolve him from? You say you don't blame him alone, and yet every other sentence you defend McKay and criticise Sheppard for war mongering. Yet all you can say is that Sheppard whined that McKay cheated, and that he built a bigger army in response to McKay giving advanced technology to the Geldans. How is that war mongering?
The analogy to you slaughtering all of Atlantis has no relevance in this discussion, because the reason you did this (hypothetically, of course) isn't known. How does that relate to anything we're discussing here, anyway? Sheppard didn't slaughter anyone, or even hurt anyone. He merely got his country to build a bigger army. Good job he did though, as otherwise Baden wouldn't have been able to take the mine, and halt the incursion on the Halloran's land, would he? ;)


You aren't remembered for your best deeds, you're remembered for the worst (if these overshadow your best). If someone saves 1000 people from a burning building but end up doing something that results in a catastrophic failure that kills 10,000 people, the latter is what they'll be remembered by.
Who says that Sheppard's bad deeds overshadow his good ones?
Let's look at the facts.
Sheppard got his country to build a bigger army in response to McKay giving the Geldan's inappropriately advanced technology.
Sheppard comes up with the plan, using the atrocity of war, to show BOTH sides the error of their ways. Hmmm, let's see. Sheppard building his army is soooo bad, that his plan succeeding, resulting in no loss of life and two countries willing to open a dialogue and negotiate is overshadowed? I think not.

FallenAngelII
December 24th, 2006, 01:39 AM
Sorry, then it was caty claiming I was being sarcastic. Posts blend together in this thread.

And I'm not making excuses for Rodney. Note how I've never defended Rodney's action other than "Yes, he stole from them. Yes, stealing is very bad. But some people make it sound like they were stealing the crown jewels. They were stealing stuff the other party wasn't using (and didn't have the technology to use). Of course, it was still very, very bad!".

I also just merely pointed out that because of Rodney's personality, people have no problems blaming him. However, since John is (normally) very likable, people have problems blaming him.

You'd inflame discussions and possible sabotage your own attempts to stop a war over something you considered cheating?

I don't think it was because of his "moral stance". It was more because Rodney cheated again him. I doubt he'd have whined as much if, say, Teyla'd cheated against, oh, say, Radek.

"Constantly criticizing John"? I've criticized John on two issues in my entire Stargate discussion career. I've criticized him for his Kirking and dealing with women (which is one issue, even though it's happened in numerous episodes) and I've criticized him about his way of handling things in "The Game".

And I didn't criticize John for his military mindset. Dig up one post where I do that. I'm merely saying: John's military training made him respond in a military way, which added to the stockpile of things to later erupt in war.

The shooting down of the blimp, I have nothing against. When did I ever even mention it? I think everyone agrees on that shooting down that blimp (in a peaceful way, no one got hurt) was a good thing.

Rodney thought it was game. He couldn't possibly, in his wildest fantasies, have thought that his Sims would figure out how to make a bomb themselves even if he'd given them the ingredients for a bomb (note how he never, ever says he gave them any instructions, just ingredients. Those could've been for mining, a very likely scenario).

When did I ever make excuses for the coal mining? I've just criticized Baten for going all-out and opting for full scale war because of the mining. A minor conflict, sure. Military operation, retaliation, sure. Full-scale war against a country with superior technology? Blood bath.

Never once did I say John approved of war or was war-mongering in real life, either. I've never once accused John of being a war-monger in real life.

And I never said John's bad deeds overshadows his good ones. I'm pointing out that just because John saves the day, it doesn't absolve him of past possible crimes. Because if he went mad and blew up Atlantis tomorrow, that'd be the thing he'd be remembered for, not for saving the peace between the Geldarians and Hallonians or for saving those and those people.

It seems everytime I say something that can be interpreted as being remotely critical of John, everyone automatically assumes I'm criticizing John.

caty
December 24th, 2006, 02:26 AM
But not sarcasm. You claimed I was being sarcastic. Not the same thing.

The fact remains that it wasn't a smug smile and I don't see how anyone can perceive it as such. Caty, please tell me, do you still think Rodney's smile was smug? And that he nodded?


Hey, after watching the ep again, I'd definetely say that it wasn't smug. After all, I don't have a problem admitting that I remembered it differently ;)
The smile was more kind of helpless because he agreed with what Nola said and didn't want to lie to her. And it's still the same thing John did with Baden, so all I said in my post still stands. He could have tried harder to prevent what was happening..

Asking me the question: "Ehm.... What episode were you watching?" is not sarcastic??????????? COME ON!
You were being rude and condescending...

I cannot believe you blame people for ignoring your posts while you constantly ignore hwta is being said on here.

Willow'sCat
December 24th, 2006, 02:29 AM
Because Shep is quite a moral sort of person, and cheating in a game to win would be a hollow victory for him, I think. I can't stand cheating in games either.LOL! OMG! Sheppard is NOT moral, he is a cold blooded killer tell me where he is a moral character after Misbegotten? I must of missed his moral stance in that one, not to mention all the other times, being military does not give you the right to kill at will. ;)

FallenAngelII
December 24th, 2006, 02:30 AM
Sarcasm (http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/sarcasm) - 1. harsh or bitter derision or irony.
2. a sharply ironical taunt; sneering or cutting remark: a review full of sarcasms.

"What episode were you watching", while condescending and rude, is not a sarcastic reply. You cannot really blame me for making the connection between such remarks and sarcasm.

I don't ignore posts. I just don't read every single post in this thread unless I see my name being mentioned or my posts being quoted (because episode threads are cluttered with tons of things). And even then sometimes I miss things.

However, if I keep repeating the same thing (while quoting a certain person), I expect them to catch it at least once.

So, they both smiled nervously. Shame on both. However, Rodney smiled nervously to a statement about not stepping down. John smiled nervously to a statement about attacking. Of course, they're both morons for just not saying "So what if that's what I would have done? I'm stupid! War is baaaad!"

caty
December 24th, 2006, 02:31 AM
I don't ignore posts. I just don't read every single post in this thread unless I see my name being mentioned or my posts being quoted (because episode threads are cluttered with tons of things). And even then sometimes I miss things.

However, if I keep repeating the same thing (while quoting a certain person), I expect them to catch it at least once.

So, they both smiled nervously. Shame on both.

Apply that to yourself and everybody's happy.

FallenAngelII
December 24th, 2006, 02:38 AM
Apply that to yourself and everybody's happy.
Please point me towards the posts/parts of post which I reportedly missed (complete with multiple reposts of the same things).

caty
December 24th, 2006, 02:40 AM
Please point me towards the posts/parts of post which I reportedly missed (complete with multiple reposts of the same things).

I don't have time for that now, it is Christmas Eve... I will show you mine when I have time though ;)

Atlantean_Fan
December 24th, 2006, 04:35 AM
LOL! OMG! Sheppard is NOT moral, he is a cold blooded killer tell me where he is a moral character after Misbegotten? I must of missed his moral stance in that one, not to mention all the other times, being military does not give you the right to kill at will. ;)
To quote Spock: "The needs of the many outweights the needs of the few." Those turned Wraith were a liability not only for Atlantis, but now that they were turning back to all Pegasus and Earth too. Why people only see the small picture? Some just want to bash Sheppard and some I don't know, see one episode at a time and forget about overall arc? I mean in the same situation, I would've shot them too myself. I see nothing wrong. Consider it like giving death penalty to someone who has destroyed many cities and will live just to destroy more...

FallenAngelII
December 24th, 2006, 05:39 AM
To quote Spock: "The needs of the many outweights the needs of the few." Those turned Wraith were a liability not only for Atlantis, but now that they were turning back to all Pegasus and Earth too. Why people only see the small picture? Some just want to bash Sheppard and some I don't know, see one episode at a time and forget about overall arc? I mean in the same situation, I would've shot them too myself. I see nothing wrong. Consider it like giving death penalty to someone who has destroyed many cities and will live just to destroy more...
You see nothing wrong with killing all of those people in "Misbegotten"?

Ok, first, they use a retrovirus to in effect turn them into lower beings. Then, they strand them somewhere with barely enough food to survive. And then they shoot them all. And there's nothing wrong with that?

You don't know what that hive's done before. Hives do not wander the galaxy levelling cities. They wander the galaxay culling cattle for food. How'd you like it if I turned you into a pig for eating meat and then shot you when you started to turn back for fear of you ratting on me (and you know you'd deserve it because obvious all humans are evil scumbags who level cities and kill innocents for fun because a select few do)?

Linzi
December 24th, 2006, 07:20 AM
LOL! OMG! Sheppard is NOT moral, he is a cold blooded killer tell me where he is a moral character after Misbegotten? I must of missed his moral stance in that one, not to mention all the other times, being military does not give you the right to kill at will. ;)
When quoting, please could you put in the name of the person you're quoting? It is impolite not too, and confusing for people reading the replies.
When it comes to defending your own people and interests, I wouldn't disagree that morals, in the biblical sense, are sometimes put aside. It's called self-preservation. In Misbegotten, the example you use here, Sheppard made the decision to save Atlantis and Earth above the lives of several hundred Wraith. Yes, the decision to use the retrovirus way back on Michael was morally dubious, I'd agree. However, sacrificing a few hundred converted Wraith is an acceptable loss when dealing with the potential deaths of billions on Earth. Sheppard would've lost his job immediately had he not made the decision he did. So, yes, I think Sheppard is a moral and fair person, and yes, I think he doesn't approve of cheating in a game because of this. The needs of the many outweigh the needs of the few, and all. Soldiers in command positions are required to make difficult decisions, and defending their own countries, or in the case you quote, planet, is what they are paid to do. Is that morally dubious? I don't think so, I'd be glad someobdy was around to make the decision to save my race. Thus, I think it was the correct decision. To do anything else could've potentially meant the destruction of Atlantis and Earth in the long run, and as nice those morals are, in an idealistic world, reality means the instinct for survival is stronger, in my opinion. Who decides what is wrong or right in this case? I don't know. However, if I were a person on Earth or Atlantis in the show, I'd be damn glad Sheppard made the decision he did, because I'd do the same as Sheppard without hesitation. I'd rather see 200 odd ex-Wraith dead that see my world ravaged. If that makes me morally dubious, so what? The need to survive is paramount in my opinion.

Yagami_Light
December 24th, 2006, 07:31 AM
You see nothing wrong with killing all of those people in "Misbegotten"?

Ok, first, they use a retrovirus to in effect turn them into lower beings. Then, they strand them somewhere with barely enough food to survive. And then they shoot them all. And there's nothing wrong with that?

You don't know what that hive's done before. Hives do not wander the galaxy leveling cities. They wander the galaxy culling cattle for food. How'd you like it if I turned you into a pig for eating meat and then shot you when you started to turn back for fear of you ratting on me (and you know you'd deserve it because obvious all humans are evil scumbags who level cities and kill innocents for fun because a select few do)?

Heh, so you see yourself as a) cattle and b) a lower being? You're A-ok with the idea of your home being culled (since those WRAITH reuniting with their hive would have lead to an exodus for the rich feeding ground that is Earth)? It is wrong for Wraith to be treated badly, the same Wraith who spent the last two episodes conniving to enslave/destroy a planet of billions and who abducted and imprisoned two of their supposed allies so that they could watch, simply because they were confused at the time? That's an interesting point of view, but in my own I believe you reap what you sow. I believe the phrase, "don't start none, won't be none," is fitting. It isn't like they abducted a group of peaceful traders who happened to be Wraith in order to run experiments on them and then discarded them when they weren't convenient. Everything they did was literally the last resort left to them short of surrendering themselves (as well as what most of them call their homeworld) to death-by-vampirism.

It might be worth remembering that mess was Mikey's. He came up with the idea to gas hive ships and he proposed they gas that particular one to save themselves. He has no problem with the idea of feeding on his own kind, and in fact was going to offer up these "poor souls" (from his own hive, no less) as food to their own brothers (before pointing out the way to Earth of course). Considering that the options for the supposed "innocent" Wraith was having their life essence drained by their own brothers or swift incineration, I'd say they received the merciful ending. If Lorne hadn't run out of ammo in the previous ep it is pretty much how they would have turned out anyway, and nobody seems to give a damn about the "poor Wraith" in the ship the Orion blew apart.

Back on topic, the war wasn't really anyone's fault over anyone else's. As has been said, at some point you have to give responsibility to the leaders. Maybe John shouldn't have whined as much about the cheating, but on the flip side Rodney clearly advanced his civilization too fast. Is that his fault? No, he thought it was a game. But clearly they achieved too much technology without the wisdom to use it properly.

Both civilizations seemed to be used to portray certain negative aspects of the two who had guided them. Baden and the people of Hallona seem to me to have a very clear cut, black and white view of right and wrong, and are quick to resort to violence when they feel wronged. Nola and the people of Geldar have a certain "we know what's best" arrogance.

To be frank though, the conflict isn't Sheppard or McKay's fault. It's Nola's. She really had no business crossing Hallona's borders to set up a mining operation without even seeking permission from the people who owned the land. One could extend that to point a finger at Rodney, but that would be like blaming him for the war with the Ori when the guy thought he was logging in to battle.net for a game of Starcraft.

Linzi
December 24th, 2006, 07:32 AM
You see nothing wrong with killing all of those people in "Misbegotten"?

Ok, first, they use a retrovirus to in effect turn them into lower beings. Then, they strand them somewhere with barely enough food to survive. And then they shoot them all. And there's nothing wrong with that?

You don't know what that hive's done before. Hives do not wander the galaxy levelling cities. They wander the galaxay culling cattle for food. How'd you like it if I turned you into a pig for eating meat and then shot you when you started to turn back for fear of you ratting on me (and you know you'd deserve it because obvious all humans are evil scumbags who level cities and kill innocents for fun because a select few do)?
Who said they barely had enough food to survive? When was it ever said that was the case in Misbegotten?
Seeing as how pigs aren't anywhere near the same level of intelligence of humans, not are we related to them in any way, yet again I find your analogy inappropriate. You can't devolve a human into a pig!
The casualties in Misbegotten were casualties of war. Regrettable, to be sure, but what alternative was there? After the situation had got out of control, ie, a Hive was on the way, with ex-wraith now wraith again, having vital information about Atlantis and therefore being able to find their way to Earth, , then in my opinion there was no other logical choice. I liked that Misbegotten encouraged much ethical debate. However, it's very easy to be morally outraged when you're not the one making the difficult decisions. What would you do? Let another race threaten your very existence rather than fighting back, and making the difficult decision to kill others in order for you or your family to survive? I'd protect my family at any cost, so I actually admire the armed forces for protecting me. Whether I admire the politics of the situations is another matter.

Atlantean_Fan
December 24th, 2006, 08:31 AM
You see nothing wrong with killing all of those people in "Misbegotten"?

Ok, first, they use a retrovirus to in effect turn them into lower beings. Then, they strand them somewhere with barely enough food to survive. And then they shoot them all. And there's nothing wrong with that?

You don't know what that hive's done before. Hives do not wander the galaxy levelling cities. They wander the galaxay culling cattle for food. How'd you like it if I turned you into a pig for eating meat and then shot you when you started to turn back for fear of you ratting on me (and you know you'd deserve it because obvious all humans are evil scumbags who level cities and kill innocents for fun because a select few do)?
Your analisys is incorrect IMHO too, FAII.

1) I guess you think the Wraith evolved into what they are already having Hive and dart tech, which for me can not be true, so if they couldn't leave their homeworld while evolving and only humans can sustain them, how did they live before being capable of space travel cause they would've eaten all non-turned ones and would've resourced to cannibalism to survive, meaning they couldn't have lasted enough to come up with the tech? That's a tough one....

2) Since it's obvious after 1) that the Wraith can and did subsist on something else, they don't go after humans because they have to, they do it because they can. It's a show of superiority. No different actually than the what Hittler and the Nazis did to the jews, perhaps you're not jew and you don't care, but I would've killed any of those Nazis with whatever weapon I had with me if I had been alive by then or even with my bare hands. That's a more apropriate comparison in my opinion.

3) Considereing one and two, there are two ways of finishing this conflict with the Wraith. One is do what they do and extinguish them as a species. I don't approave of that. So the only other choice is to gain their respect as fighters as Sheppard did with the Wraith in Common Ground and we won't do it by acting like the Ancients and let them screw us over like we were a great weak people. We have to fight with everything we've got. Yes, Wraith will die and humans will die as happens all the time in any war, but this war is not about crazy or ultimatly even irrelevant stuff like some of the ones we've got in our history. It's a war to gain respect as a race and to survive. I agree with what Yagami_Light and Linzi said above 100%. I make their words mine.

Nolamom
December 24th, 2006, 08:36 AM
Note how I've never defended Rodney's action other than "Yes, he stole from them. Yes, stealing is very bad. But some people make it sound like they were stealing the crown jewels. They were stealing stuff the other party wasn't using (and didn't have the technology to use). Of course, it was still very, very bad!".

<snip>

When did I ever make excuses for the coal mining?

Making excuses that "you aren't using that anyway" to justify theft. They weren't using the coal yet. Because their oracle hadn't artifically advanced their technolgical development centuries faster than it naturally would have occurred. So what happens when the time comes that they reach the level of technological development of needing their coal reserves. Oh, too bad. The neighbors have robbed the cookie jar.

the old briar pipe
December 24th, 2006, 09:00 AM
LOL! OMG! Sheppard is NOT moral, he is a cold blooded killer tell me where he is a moral character after Misbegotten? I must of missed his moral stance in that one, not to mention all the other times, being military does not give you the right to kill at will. ;)

Hm. I can see where his decisions over the Michael arc would be upsetting (as would Elizabeth's, some of Carson's, etc.), but I don't see how you can carry that over to "The Game".

Sheppard makes the decision to kill sometimes. As a pacifist, I'm not down with that. But I recognize the necessity.

Would you say that after "Critical Mass", Elizabeth is no longer a moral character? Because I wouldn't say that. John doesn't like the choices he's had to make, but he's been the one to make them ever since "Rising" and "The Storm/The Eye". Whenever he can, he's tried to avoid bloodshed.

Remember "Underground"? He could have played a little retaliation game in blood instead of information, but he chose to use a show of overwhelming force to prevent that. Ditto "The Game". John likes to show people the potential horror of their choices before they commit, whenever possible. That makes me think he sees the horror himself. I don't think he actually likes war. Otherwise, thinking it was a game, he would have attacked Geldar long before Rodney got as far as he did.

That said, he's willing to use overwhelming force when necessary. It's his job (by which I don't mean paid position but purpose in life) to make sure his own people survive. In Geldar/Halloran, that's not an issue, so he's free to focus his whole attention on solving the problem. Which he eventually does.

I don't believe one incident reveals a character's (or person's) morality as a whole. You have to take as many examples as you can get, and if "The Game" runs counter to "Misbegotten" (which I don't think it does, entirely, but you could argue it), then you have to take that evidence, too.

Just my two cents. :)

FallenAngelII
December 24th, 2006, 09:49 AM
Who said they barely had enough food to survive? When was it ever said that was the case in Misbegotten?
The Wraith who got offed did.

LATHAN: By keeping us trapped here, with barely enough food and no idea when or if we'll ever be allowed to leave? I say that's not good enough.


Heh, so you see yourself as a) cattle and b) a lower being? You're A-ok with the idea of your home being culled (since those WRAITH reuniting with their hive would have lead to an exodus for the rich feeding ground that is Earth)? It is wrong for Wraith to be treated badly, the same Wraith who spent the last two episodes conniving to enslave/destroy a planet of billions and who abducted and imprisoned two of their supposed allies so that they could watch, simply because they were confused at the time? That's an interesting point of view, but in my own I believe you reap what you sow. I believe the phrase, "don't start none, won't be none," is fitting. It isn't like they abducted a group of peaceful traders who happened to be Wraith in order to run experiments on them and then discarded them when they weren't convenient. Everything they did was literally the last resort left to them short of surrendering themselves (as well as what most of them call their homeworld) to death-by-vampirism.

It might be worth remembering that mess was Mikey's. He came up with the idea to gas hive ships and he proposed they gas that particular one to save themselves. He has no problem with the idea of feeding on his own kind, and in fact was going to offer up these "poor souls" (from his own hive, no less) as food to their own brothers (before pointing out the way to Earth of course). Considering that the options for the supposed "innocent" Wraith was having their life essence drained by their own brothers or swift incineration, I'd say they received the merciful ending. If Lorne hadn't run out of ammo in the previous ep it is pretty much how they would have turned out anyway, and nobody seems to give a damn about the "poor Wraith" in the ship the Orion blew apart.

Back on topic, the war wasn't really anyone's fault over anyone else's. As has been said, at some point you have to give responsibility to the leaders. Maybe John shouldn't have whined as much about the cheating, but on the flip side Rodney clearly advanced his civilization too fast. Is that his fault? No, he thought it was a game. But clearly they achieved too much technology without the wisdom to use it properly.

Both civilizations seemed to be used to portray certain negative aspects of the two who had guided them. Baden and the people of Hallona seem to me to have a very clear cut, black and white view of right and wrong, and are quick to resort to violence when they feel wronged. Nola and the people of Geldar have a certain "we know what's best" arrogance.

To be frank though, the conflict isn't Sheppard or McKay's fault. It's Nola's. She really had no business crossing Hallona's borders to set up a mining operation without even seeking permission from the people who owned the land. One could extend that to point a finger at Rodney, but that would be like blaming him for the war with the Ori when the guy thought he was logging in to battle.net for a game of Starcraft.
Michael was a very nice little Wraith. He helped us save our own planet. Of course, he did because he wanted to survive, but I don't think he was all too against saving our planet. After all, he'd been tricked himself.

How do we repay him? By force-feeding him the retrovirus (again) and putting him together with the rejects who wanted to kill him. And then, when that plan failed, we just wiped them all out.

This is why Karma comes back to bite us in the ass ("Vengance" spoilers) when Michael returns in "Vengeance".

The Wraith in "No Man's Land" were actively fighting. Offing people who we've force-fed a virus to make them subjugated pre-emptively is bad, bad, bad. For reasons unknown, we didn't have the Daedalus around to beam them up, restrain them and force-feed them some more virus.

It's like a soldier. If he surrenders, you can't shoot him. That would be murder. Of course, the Wraith didn't surrender. But it was still somewhat wrong to off every single Wraith on that planet. It's not completely wrong and it's still right because we saved ourselves and Earth.

But what they did was basically off over 100 innocent "humans" together with a few renegades who were turning without much thought (or anguish afterwards).

Alipeeps
December 24th, 2006, 11:04 AM
But what they did was basically off over 100 innocent "humans" together with a few renegades who were turning without much thought (or anguish afterwards).

And if they hadn't, there'd be no more SGA for us to watch (or SG1) because shortly thereafter the Wraith would have found Earth and eaten everbody. The End.

That said, how about we take the Misbegotten discussion to the Misbegotten ep thread and the Sheppard-bashing to the relevant anti-thread and get back to talking about The Game?

Yagami_Light
December 24th, 2006, 11:14 AM
The Wraith in "No Man's Land" were actively fighting. Offing people who we've force-fed a virus to make them subjugated pre-emptively is bad, bad, bad. For reasons unknown, we didn't have the Daedalus around to beam them up, restrain them and force-feed them some more virus.

It's like a soldier. If he surrenders, you can't shoot him. That would be murder. Of course, the Wraith didn't surrender. But it was still somewhat wrong to off every single Wraith on that planet. It's not completely wrong and it's still right because we saved ourselves and Earth.

But what they did was basically off over 100 innocent "humans" together with a few renegades who were turning without much thought (or anguish afterwards).

I agree that there were moral issues in that whole arc. What I disagree with is using terms such as innocent. Maybe "unknowing." They had temporary amnesia (so long as they took the little pill). I think Carson's experiment, while coming from the right mindset, was fundamentally flawed. The Wraith aren't humans who evolved parasitic bug-like qualities. They are parasitic bugs who evolved human-like qualities. Trying to make them happy homo-sapiens directly contradicts their nature and is doomed to failure.

Linzi
December 24th, 2006, 02:26 PM
And if they hadn't, there'd be no more SGA for us to watch (or SG1) because shortly thereafter the Wraith would have found Earth and eaten everbody. The End.

That said, how about we take the Misbegotten discussion to the Misbegotten ep thread and the Sheppard-bashing to the relevant anti-thread and get back to talking about The Game?
Agreed!!! :)

FallenAngelII
December 24th, 2006, 02:56 PM
Yes, because apparentely discussing John's lack of, well, any emotion from using the drug on Michael twice and then killing him and all of his friends is apparentely John-bashing.

Of course, the others were to blame, too, but John was the one who ordered the Wraith eradicated.

It seems like if you say anything remotely anti-John, it's Sheppard-bashing.

Alipeeps
December 24th, 2006, 03:27 PM
You know what? It's not all about you.

There were remarks made - not necessarily by you - that had nothing to do with the episode The Game and were nothing more than slagging off the character of John Sheppard. I don't like bashing of *any* character but for those who do there are threads for that purpose.

The fact remains that this thread has gotten off-topic, I'd like to see it get back on topic - if you desperately feel the need to discuss the events of Misbegotten or Sheppard's actions in that episode - take it to that episode thread.

prion
December 24th, 2006, 05:26 PM
But what they did was basically off over 100 innocent "humans" together with a few renegades who were turning without much thought (or anguish afterwards).

Unfortunately that's a flaw with teh writers of not following up. There's been some good fanfic (I hate always having to say that, as the writers shouldn't drop the ball). Basically, the Atlantis folk are at war and the 'humans' (who would begin reverting within 24 hours back to their more lethal Wraith state) were a definite health hazard (I know there's a better description). I wouldn't say that Shep enjoyed blowing them up, but this is what is done in war. Cripes, in WWII, England let towns get blown off the map so the Germans didn't know the Brits had decoded their secret codes. War's nasty.

Nolamom
December 24th, 2006, 08:10 PM
You know what? It's not all about you.

There were remarks made - not necessarily by you - that had nothing to do with the episode The Game and were nothing more than slagging off the character of John Sheppard. I don't like bashing of *any* character but for those who do there are threads for that purpose.

The fact remains that this thread has gotten off-topic, I'd like to see it get back on topic - if you desperately feel the need to discuss the events of Misbegotten or Sheppard's actions in that episode - take it to that episode thread.

Thank you! The last couple of pages have been remarkable for the number of off-topic posts.
http://i77.photobucket.com/albums/j55/Nolamom/Stargate%20Stuff/focus.gif
Shall we disscuss The Game in *this* thread and leave the other episodes to their respective threads?

FallenAngelII
December 24th, 2006, 09:18 PM
Unfortunately that's a flaw with teh writers of not following up. There's been some good fanfic (I hate always having to say that, as the writers shouldn't drop the ball). Basically, the Atlantis folk are at war and the 'humans' (who would begin reverting within 24 hours back to their more lethal Wraith state) were a definite health hazard (I know there's a better description). I wouldn't say that Shep enjoyed blowing them up, but this is what is done in war. Cripes, in WWII, England let towns get blown off the map so the Germans didn't know the Brits had decoded their secret codes. War's nasty.
I am not saying what they did was bad (in fact, I've pointed out that it was a good thing). And, yes, in war, we do nasty things. They're still nasty.

However, people seem to think that the Wraith are pure evil and that getting rid of them by any means is vital and morally defendable.

"Oh, so a Wraith died/got experimented on/got tortured. It's just a Wraith!"

I'm merely pointing out that while they were at war and the Wraith were, well, Wraith, what they did was still wrong on some level (morally). At least in my opinion.

Well, back to "The Game", what the hell haven't we done to death yet? Oh, here's one:
Nola was an attractice buxom woman. And she didn't flirt with any of our male cast members, nor did any of them flirt with her!

Well, it's kinda the next best thing to having a less-than hot buxom woman who's possibly middle age.

expendable_crewman
December 25th, 2006, 01:11 AM
I agree that there were moral issues in that whole arc. What I disagree with is using terms such as innocent. Maybe "unknowing." They had temporary amnesia (so long as they took the little pill). I think Carson's experiment, while coming from the right mindset, was fundamentally flawed. The Wraith aren't humans who evolved parasitic bug-like qualities. They are parasitic bugs who evolved human-like qualities. Trying to make them happy homo-sapiens directly contradicts their nature and is doomed to failure.Ha, I like this. Makes me want to write a fic.

You know, though, this sounds familiar. I'm pretty sure Michael said something just like it in Misbegotten.

Somehow, revisiting the Michael eps, I just don't see where the writers included hints the Michael character and the word "nice" should go together, although I have to say his human face sure did look a lot like a fav character of mine from another series.

And I think the term "Sheppard bashing" was being used in the last few pages to describe this: placing blame at this character's door as a sign of his perceived flawed nature based on stuff that was not in the ep. An example would be using Sheppard's tactics (in the Game ep) while he believed he was playing a game to show he's got a problem.

For people who don't know games, a few gamers have popped in on the thread to explain game strategy.

The Game ep doesn't show the character being all that excited his game turned out to be real ... anymore than the Misbegotten ep is shy about revealing the consequences of the Wraith with their knowledge of Earth's location getting a lift from the approaching hive shift. There's a very candid discussion by the "nice" Wraith in Misbegotten about handing over "weaker" Wraith comrades for food. That would count as this Wraith's "second" betrayal of members of his own species in the interest of self-preservation. That tells me that within the context of the story I'm not supposed to worry about Michael, although I think he makes a cool bad guy.

Feel for the Wraith, identify with them, or hate them, whatever makes your clock tick, but the story arc and the ep itself were very definite about the (deadly) danger / risk posed by these Wraith to the humans for whom Sheppard was responsible.

"Reap what you sew" btw works both ways. There are 2.5 seasons of Wraith action (and human/Wraith backstory crossing ten thousand years, give or take a century) in this series. It's ridiculous to say tension between humans and Wraith as portrayed in future eps could have been avoided if only Sheppard hadn't ... fill in the blank with whatever Shep bashing line comes to mind.

Alipeeps
December 25th, 2006, 05:00 AM
Nola was an attractice buxom woman. And she didn't flirt with any of our male cast members, nor did any of them flirt with her!

Well, it's kinda the next best thing to having a less-than hot buxom woman who's possibly middle age.

Erm....

bux·om /?b?ks?m/ Pronunciation [buhk-suhm] –adjective

1. (of a woman) full-bosomed.
2. (of a woman) healthy, plump, cheerful, and lively.

I certainly wouldn't describe Laura Harris as buxom!

FallenAngelII
December 25th, 2006, 05:13 AM
Good point. Attractive, slim woman. >_>'

Mitchell82
December 25th, 2006, 11:16 PM
First off I hope eveyone had a Merry Christmas, Happy Hanukah, or other holidy you celebrate. Now, it seems alot of people have gotten off topic and started atakcing people again. Lets all be civil here please. Now to the topics some have represented. Willow Cat I see you point on Sheppard being immoral but from a fellow Military standpoint I disagree, but to keep it from looking biased I also asked my wife and she agrees aswell. He was not being Immoral he made a strategic move that I happen to agree with in Missbegotten. First off as to the morailty issue of the serum that turns Wraith into humans there is a fine line. Do we consider that the Wraith have rights since they arent necesairly evil since they have to feed? If we open up that can o worms are the Goa'uld evil since they have to take a host because of their biological dependence? We made the problem of the Human Wraith b/c we had no choice in order to survive. When the Wraith started feeling that they wernt being told the truth and figured out who they are they became a liabilty to not only Atlantis but to the galaxy. Sheppard had no other choice and I do not see him not being moral. As to Shepards morality in "The Game" I understand his decison and support it. His country was being illegally invaded and having their ore illegally taken from their land and negotions were not succeding b/c of arrogance on both countrys. However his decison to increase his army at the time was logical but then things went out of control. IThis is just my opinon.

FallenAngelII
December 25th, 2006, 11:45 PM
Are the Goa'uld evil since they have to take a host because of their biological dependence? We made the problem of the Human Wraith b/c we had no choice in order to survive.
The act of taking a host against its will can be seen as immoral. Or just a necessity. After all, do we not use lower animals as beasts of burden and lab rats?

It's the things the Goa'uld do that's evil.

Mitchell82
December 26th, 2006, 12:03 AM
The act of taking a host against its will can be seen as immoral. Or just a necessity. After all, do we not use lower animals as beasts of burden and lab rats?

It's the things the Goa'uld do that's evil.

Bingo and it's the same as the Wraith. What we did is questionable but not immoral.

psychofilly
December 26th, 2006, 06:06 AM
First off I hope eveyone had a Merry Christmas, Happy Hanukah, or other holidy you celebrate. Now, it seems alot of people have gotten off topic and started atakcing people again. Lets all be civil here please. Now to the topics some have represented. Willow Cat I see you point on Sheppard being immoral but from a fellow Military standpoint I disagree, but to keep it from looking biased I also asked my wife and she agrees aswell. He was not being Immoral he made a strategic move that I happen to agree with in Missbegotten. First off as to the morailty issue of the serum that turns Wraith into humans there is a fine line.



Do we consider that the Wraith have rights since they arent necesairly evil since they have to feed? If we open up that can o worms are the Goa'uld evil since they have to take a host because of their biological dependence?

Actually, no. We don't see the Goa'uld as evil for the need to take hosts. We were and still are, in fact, allied with the Tok'ra. They are goa'uld who take willing hosts and do not enslave them, and they do not use the sarcogaphus (sp?). It was the system lords that we were at war with, and even then, some were worse than others.

The Wraith are not necessarily evil because they can only eat humans once they pass a certain age. We are like cattle to them. It's just that unlike our cattle, their's are sentient and also perfectly within their rights to fight back. What makes the Wraith evil, is that they do take human slaves and they torture their food unecessarily, like when they hunt runners.



We made the problem of the Human Wraith b/c we had no choice in order to survive. When the Wraith started feeling that they wernt being told the truth and figured out who they are they became a liabilty to not only Atlantis but to the galaxy. Sheppard had no other choice and I do not see him not being moral.
I think it's been established that making a Wraith human doesn't erase the instincts and hunger of the Wraith. So far, IMO, the only thing the retrovirus really does is make them easier to kill. While I understand why they used the virus in this case (raw survival). I do think the entire retrovirus issue is a slippery moral slope that I wish they would explore more.

As for the game, I think it was clear that the blame for escalation was shared equally among Rodney, Shep, and the people of Geldar and Hallona. Shep and McKay played the games as an extension of their character. John is military and a bit reckless, Rodney is arrogant and a bit reckless, and the people of the planet were not mindless atomatons and they were also reckless because they didn't really know better.

Also John and Rodney worked together to fix the problem. John got the idea, but Rodney is the one that executed it. In the end, they weren't angry with each other or still laying blame. They had moved on and were good again. So I think in this instance, I'm going to take the show at face value and move on with them.

FallenAngelII
December 26th, 2006, 08:17 AM
Bingo and it's the same as the Wraith. What we did is questionable but not immoral.
But the question is: Do all means justify the ends?

I've never once stated that what was done in "Misbegotten" was 100% immoral. But can one really claim that it's 100% OK and moral?

If one would have to kill 100 children in order to save Earth, would that be a 100% moral and OK thing to do?

In "The Siege", the idea to take the ZPM from the Planet of the Kids was shot down. Why? Because it's immoral to leave the children open for a possible Wraith attack (the chances of which are small, by the way) at the possible expense of the entire Atlantis Expedition plus the Athosians, the possibly only hope the Pegasus Galaxy has of ever defeating the Wraith.

Not to mention the fact that should Atlantis fall, Earth would be next with its over six billion inhabitants.

And they shot down the idea of endangering a small planet with a tiny population because "It would be wrong"?!

And these are the same people who apparentely see no problems with using a thing such as the Retrovirus, force-Retrovirusing Michael when he was instrumental to saving Earth from the Wraith and then frying a planet full of Wraith to keep the secret of Atlantis (and Earth safe)?

Especially when these Wraith were no longer hostile. If they really wanted to be moral, they could've beamed down, killed the rebel Wraith and beamed the still Human Wraiths up.

It's not just morally dubious. It's morally wrong on a few levels.

Mitchell82
December 26th, 2006, 09:45 AM
But the question is: Do all means justify the ends?

I've never once stated that what was done in "Misbegotten" was 100% immoral. But can one really claim that it's 100% OK and moral?

If one would have to kill 100 children in order to save Earth, would that be a 100% moral and OK thing to do?

In "The Siege", the idea to take the ZPM from the Planet of the Kids was shot down. Why? Because it's immoral to leave the children open for a possible Wraith attack (the chances of which are small, by the way) at the possible expense of the entire Atlantis Expedition plus the Athosians, the possibly only hope the Pegasus Galaxy has of ever defeating the Wraith.

Not to mention the fact that should Atlantis fall, Earth would be next with its over six billion inhabitants.

And they shot down the idea of endangering a small planet with a tiny population because "It would be wrong"?!

And these are the same people who apparentely see no problems with using a thing such as the Retrovirus, force-Retrovirusing Michael when he was instrumental to saving Earth from the Wraith and then frying a planet full of Wraith to keep the secret of Atlantis (and Earth safe)?

Especially when these Wraith were no longer hostile. If they really wanted to be moral, they could've beamed down, killed the rebel Wraith and beamed the still Human Wraiths up.

It's not just morally dubious. It's morally wrong on a few levels.

You made severeal good points, and I do see you logic. But consider this, if a few wraith realized the truth, would we be 100% sure that the others wouldnt? I think that was Sheppards reasoning.

NinaM
December 26th, 2006, 10:00 AM
Scratching my head wondering why on earth this thread is called The Game... since I thought Misbegotten has it's own thread,,, and even at that I see nothing else here for the past few pages but talk about that episode...

psychofilly
December 26th, 2006, 10:01 AM
You made severeal good points, and I do see you logic. But consider this, if a few wraith realized the truth, would we be 100% sure that the others wouldnt? I think that was Sheppards reasoning.

I'd have to rewatch the episode, but I think it was also a matter of time. The Hive was bearing down, the Wraith that were reverting were broadcasting their position, and possibly intelligence. IIRC, they didn't have time to rescue the not!wraith, so they killed them all and let god sort them out.

FallenAngelII
December 26th, 2006, 10:32 AM
You made severeal good points, and I do see you logic. But consider this, if a few wraith realized the truth, would we be 100% sure that the others wouldnt? I think that was Sheppards reasoning.
Of course, but we cannot condemn people for what they might do. We just don't do that.

But of course, there's a lot of things that would and could ahve gone wrong. I'm simply pointing out things are almost never black and white. It's never as simple as "This was 100% right".

If you wanna discuss this further, tell me and we'll take it to the "Misbegotten"-thread.

caty
December 26th, 2006, 11:23 AM
Please point me towards the posts/parts of post which I reportedly missed (complete with multiple reposts of the same things).
I have gone through some of the thread and I'll just repost the things you haven't adressed yet...

~snip~
Just let them take everything they want with their new technology and wisdom without standing up for yourself?
What kind of country would that be? I'm sure if Sheppard hadn't done anything to defend 'his country' people would have called him a coward..
And at least he stayed fair and didn't cheat with his measures...



~snip~
Yeah, so just yield to unfair conditions... Just give them whatever they want, ´because you don't want to get in any trouble and don't want to upset anyone..
Again, what kind of country lets other countries use them like that? So just do nothing while the other country gets so technologically advanced that it could destroy your country with bombs? Sure they didn't know that Geldar could built bombs. And they also didn't know if they could. In fact, they had no idea what they were able and what they were willing to do!


Now there is a suggestion of yours what John should have done instead of increasing his army:

He could at least have negotiated. From what I got from the episode, John got offended by Rodney's initial offer and then refused all furhter negotiation. Of course, that's Rodney's fault.

You said so yourself. John prepared his country for the worst case scenario. It was that preparation that inevitably lead to war. Had he not done it, they still be two countries in peace with some tension over a botched deal instead of wanting to rip each other's throats out.

Apply what I quoted above (the point that there was no way Baden could have known what Nola was capable of doing.) He is no psychic. How was he to know that Nola wasn't already planning on attacking them (she did have those bombs in development)? He was jnot attacking her without a reason, all he did was increasing his army to be able to defend himself... Always be prepared..

BTW: The preparation did not lead to war, the mine did.



In the very scene you are quoting, Rodney had the same look than John did when he was talking to Baden and Baden asked him to be honest...
Rodney sees that what Nola said is something he'd agree on and doesn't do anything to make her see that war shouldn't be an option at that point..
You can quote what he said before all you want. I can also quote John when he had a talk with Baden:
BADEN: What are you saying – we should capitulate, let them do whatever they want?
SHEPPARD: No. You make a deal, trade – say, you decide to share some of your weaponry and they in turn give you some of their technology.

He was trying to give other options to Baden ( I can't see any war-mongering here).


There is this point and the one Linzi made that John was indeed the one who used his knowledge about war to make Baden and Nola see what it's like at the end.

War-mongering just doesn't fit...

caty
December 26th, 2006, 11:31 AM
I have noticed something else while slipping through the pages...


~snip~

I give you that the "What kind of an army is that?!"-comment was weird but I doubt it was in the interest of war-mongering. I think he'd reacted like that if the Geldarian army had done the same. It's just very Rodney.

Before and after that, he was trying with all his might to prevent war.

Meanwhile, John was still stuck up on Rodney's "cheating" (though at least now he wasn't complaining about it around Baten).



So what, are you saying that what John did was in the interest of war-mongering? Rodney's comment along the same lines was just weird, but John was war-mongering? Very logical...

John wasn't trying with all his might to prevent war when he showed Nola and Baden what a real war is like to prevent it (and succeeding at that)?

Luz
December 26th, 2006, 11:38 AM
I have noticed something else while slipping through the pages...


So what, are you saying that what John did was in the interest of war-mongering? Rodney's comment along the same lines was just weird, but John was war-mongering? Ver logical...

John wasn't traing with all his might to prevent war when he showed Nola and Baden what a real war is like to prevent it (and succeeding at that)?

Well, to understand the logic in this you shall remember that Sheppard is a lowlife slut with no morals, so everything he does must be viewed on a negative light because he's simply incapable of doing anything right. While Rodney is just poor misunderstood woobie woodney, got it now?. ;)

caty
December 26th, 2006, 11:40 AM
Well, to understand the logic in this you shall remember that Sheppard is a lowlife slut with no morals, so everything he does must be viewed on a negative light because he's simply incapable of doing anything right. While Rodney is just poor misunderstood woobie woodney, got it now?. ;)

Uh yeah, I got it now.... :rolleyes:

Thanks :lol:

Linzi
December 26th, 2006, 11:44 AM
I have noticed something else while slipping through the pages...


So what, are you saying that what John did was in the interest of war-mongering? Rodney's comment along the same lines was just weird, but John was war-mongering? Very logical...

John wasn't trying with all his might to prevent war when he showed Nola and Baden what a real war is like to prevent it (and succeeding at that)?
I don't think logic has much to do with it, Caty! ;)
I still believe Sheppard and McKay did nothing wrong when playing the game itself. It was fun for them, and a competition to see who'd win.
When it was revealed not to be a game, they both should've stopped bickering - though, to be fair, though their ribbing of each other was a little juvenile, their banter and arguing didn't have any impact on the events that followed as far as I can see, and was really entertaining for me to watch!
I do think it's significant that Sheppard saved the day though. Why? Because the man who's seen war, given orders to kill others in the line of duty etc., USES war to show the Hallonan's and Geldan's the implications of their actions. That tells me much about Sheppard. He isn't a war mongerer. If he were, he'd have let them get on with it and walk away saying he couldn't do anything. But, he did care, and used his brain and experience to impart some of his wisdom. Those actions spoke volumes to me about his character, as well as his intelligence. :)

Linzi
December 26th, 2006, 11:45 AM
Well, to understand the logic in this you shall remember that Sheppard is a lowlife slut with no morals, so everything he does must be viewed on a negative light because he's simply incapable of doing anything right. While Rodney is just poor misunderstood woobie woodney, got it now?. ;)
Oh ok! Silly me! How did I miss that? :lol: ;)

caty
December 26th, 2006, 11:50 AM
I don't think logic has much to do with it, Caty! ;)
I still believe Sheppard and McKay did nothing wrong when playing the game itself. It was fun for them, and a competition to see who'd win.
When it was revealed not to be a game, they both should've stopped bickering - though, to be fair, though their ribbing of each other was a little juvenile, their banter and arguing didn't have any impact on the events that followed as far as I can see, and was really entertaining for me to watch!
I do think it's significant that Sheppard saved the day though. Why? Because the man who's seen war, given orders to kill others in the line of duty etc., USES war to show the Hallonan's and Geldan's the implications of their actions. That tells me much about Sheppard. He isn't a war mongerer. If he were, he'd have let them get on with it and walk away saying he couldn't do anything. But, he did care, and used his brain and experience to impart some of his wisdom. Those actions spoke volumes to me about his character, as well as his intelligence. :)

You're perfectly right, Linzi!! Shame I can't green you for that :(

FallenAngelII
December 26th, 2006, 11:56 AM
I did address those things. I said Baten should've gone for a lesser war. A smaller conflict, instead of all-out war.

The whole conflict started over the botched negotiation. From there, it escalated with juvenile humor (the gift of things that will kill Rodney), just-in-case military solutions followed by counter-measures and tension.

I've already conceeded to the fact that they're both responsible. But John was the first to go for a military solution.

And I have said time and time again that his actions in the game was war-mongering, not in real life! Never once have I claimed that his real life actions were war mongering. I challenge you to find such a post.

John wasn't trying with all his might. He still let it slip that he was really miffed about Rodney's "cheating", oh, 6 or so times. Most of them in front of Baten!

While Rodney didn't accomplish his mission to instill peace either, never once did he speak condescendingly of John or the Hallonians. Of course, he didn't contest it when Nola spoke demeaningly of the Hallonians, but never once did Rodney call John names or anything else (and especially not in front of Nola and Baten).


Well, to understand the logic in this you shall remember that Sheppard is a lowlife slut with no morals, so everything he does must be viewed on a negative light because he's simply incapable of doing anything right. While Rodney is just poor misunderstood woobie woodney, got it now?. ;)
Yes, how mature of you. When did I ever claim he has no morals? He has lacks the ability to keep it in his pants if a random woman throws herself at him (ehum, Princess Sluttina?). That doesn't mean he lacks moral.

Mitchell82
December 26th, 2006, 12:57 PM
Of course, but we cannot condemn people for what they might do. We just don't do that.

But of course, there's a lot of things that would and could ahve gone wrong. I'm simply pointing out things are almost never black and white. It's never as simple as "This was 100% right".

If you wanna discuss this further, tell me and we'll take it to the "Misbegotten"-thread.

I do see your point and concede this one. Back to topic though I don't see shepards behavior in the game immoral. I can understand his actions.

FallenAngelII
December 26th, 2006, 01:16 PM
I do see your point and concede this one. Back to topic though I don't see shepards behavior in the game immoral. I can understand his actions.
Oh, I've never said his actions in "The Game" were immoral. Whiny, yes. Immoral, no.

Nolamom
December 26th, 2006, 01:18 PM
I do think it's significant that Sheppard saved the day though. Why? Because the man who's seen war, given orders to kill others in the line of duty etc., USES war to show the Hallonan's and Geldan's the implications of their actions. :)
Talk to just about any career military officer and you'll get a similar response - they don't want to fight. That's the last option. Fighting ends in people dying. People under your command. People you are responsible for, whose families you have to notify. People you care about. Heard a three-star the other day talking about just that...and why the military is under the direction of a civilian Congress and President. After every election, the goals of the civilian body may change, which can present problems for the military, but they continue to do their part - as ordered.

The Game, when it was a game, never involved any fighting. It was only after they got to the planet and discovered the real-life implications, that things escalated to the point of warfare. Yes, Sheppard had increased his defensive forces. But he had not deployed them. Not so Rodney's increase of technology - it was obviously "deployed" all over the place.

NinaM
December 26th, 2006, 01:31 PM
I don't think logic has much to do with it, Caty! ;)
I still believe Sheppard and McKay did nothing wrong when playing the game itself. It was fun for them, and a competition to see who'd win.
When it was revealed not to be a game, they both should've stopped bickering - though, to be fair, though their ribbing of each other was a little juvenile, their banter and arguing didn't have any impact on the events that followed as far as I can see, and was really entertaining for me to watch!
I do think it's significant that Sheppard saved the day though. Why? Because the man who's seen war, given orders to kill others in the line of duty etc., USES war to show the Hallonan's and Geldan's the implications of their actions. That tells me much about Sheppard. He isn't a war mongerer. If he were, he'd have let them get on with it and walk away saying he couldn't do anything. But, he did care, and used his brain and experience to impart some of his wisdom. Those actions spoke volumes to me about his character, as well as his intelligence. :)


I agree with you on this one Linzi ....

caty
December 26th, 2006, 01:36 PM
I did address those things. I said Baten should've gone for a lesser war. A smaller conflict, instead of all-out war

The whole conflict started over the botched negotiation. From there, it escalated with juvenile humor (the gift of things that will kill Rodney), just-in-case military solutions followed by counter-measures and tension.

I've already conceeded to the fact that they're both responsible. But John was the first to go for a military solution.
And there is nothing wrong with that.. Preparing for defense from a highly technologically advanced country with bombs....
I don't see how you could think of that as war-mongering in a million years.
He did the only thing he was capable of within the rules of the game to defend his people from a neighbor country he knew is technologically advanced and holds a grudge against his country...



And I have said time and time again that his actions in the game was war-mongering, not in real life! Never once have I claimed that his real life actions were war mongering. I challenge you to find such a post.

Ok, your very first post in this thread (didn't have to look hard)...

Does anyone else feel that the entire war was most John's fault? Rodney was giving his people technology, yes, but John immediately interpreted that as them planning to one day overthrow his people.

Then came the treaty negotiations. Sure, Rodney's demands were high-strung but John retaliated by the immature gesture of sending him things he knew Rodney was deadly allergic to.

And then whenever they talked about it in front of Baten, John kept sneering about how Rodney "cheated" and blah blah, showing off hostility, which Baten no doubt picked up.

~snip~

Sure, Rodney did things that set things in motion. But every single time, it was John's reactions that triggered the inevitable war.

Had John not been as immature and war-hawky, they would still have had peace, only with a botched trade treaty.

You made three points in your post and your last sentence was clearly directed at every three...
Another one here:


~snip~
While Rodney is competitive and no doubt wanted to win over John, it wasn't by force. John, however, being the warhawk that he is, immediately assumed an attack was coming and planned for it, making his people think it was coming.


"being the war-hawk that he is" is a comment about the person John Sheppard.. Otherwise you would have said something like "Being the warhawk that he seemed to be in the game...."



John wasn't trying with all his might. He still let it slip that he was really miffed about Rodney's "cheating", oh, 6 or so times. Most of them in front of Baten!
The point was that you said "before that and after that" Rodney was trying with all his might. You refuse to admit that Rodneys reaction to Geldars retreating army was just as bad and just as "not doing his best to prevent an all out war" than John's complaining about Rodney's cheating.. I can also say before that and after that John was trying with all his might.


While Rodney didn't accomplish his mission to instill peace either, never once did he speak condescendingly of John or the Hallonians. Of course, he didn't contest it when Nola spoke demeaningly of the Hallonians, but never once did Rodney call John names or anything else (and especially not in front of Nola and Baten).

So apparently to you, John calling Rodney on his cheating (which he did) is demeaning and condescending? Doesn't really fit to the way you are talking to and about people here.. You don't seem to be too sensitive on that subject...

FallenAngelII
December 26th, 2006, 01:43 PM
Yes, but John's little military action was no doubt a big part in the war that was to come. I've never once said that he intended for war to happen. But he immediately rushed to a military response, which triggered a chain of events.

The Geldarians held a grudge against his country? To John, it was a game. His "opponent" was Rodney. He thought Rodney a grudge, one so serious he'd attack his country at any moment?

Never once have I claimed that John's a war-monger or that he's a warhawk in real life. Every single call I described his actions as warhawky, it's been in the contex of when he was playing the game. But apparentely I have to make everything crystal clear: No, I do not think he wanted the war in real life nor that he's a war-hawk in real life.

Here's a question: Did Rodney's little reaction to the Geldarian army's actions (which IMO was just him being miffed at an army running away without a fight) affect the conflict? Not in the least.

Don't you think John's whining amplified Baten's rage at least in the tiniest way? John was constantly whining about the "cheating" in front of Baten and anyone else within earshot. That's trying with all your might while simoultaneously sabotaging yourself.

Are you seriously claiming John's whining wasn't bad and that it didn't have an impact?

Unlike John, I'm not currently trying to prevent a war from breaking out (unless I've missed something big here). It does not matter if I'm condescending by asking what episode some people were watching. John's whining didn't really help his message of peace.

Mitchell82
December 26th, 2006, 01:50 PM
Oh, I've never said his actions in "The Game" were immoral. Whiny, yes. Immoral, no.

Oops sorry. So many discussions at once. Got your point.

caty
December 26th, 2006, 01:53 PM
Yes, but John's little military action was no doubt a big part in the war that was to come. I've never once said that he intended for war to happen. But he immediately rushed to a military response, which triggered a chain of events.

The Geldarians held a grudge against his country? To John, it was a game. His "opponent" was Rodney. He thought Rodney a grudge, one so serious he'd attack his country at any moment?

Never once have I claimed that John's a war-monger or that he's a warhawk in real life. Every single call I described his actions as warhawky, it's been in the contex of when he was playing the game. But apparentely I have to make everything crystal clear: No, I do not think he wanted the war in real life nor that he's a war-hawk in real life.

Here's a question: Did Rodney's little reaction to the Geldarian army's actions (which IMO was just him being miffed at an army running away without a fight) affect the conflict? Not in the least.

Don't you think John's whining amplified Baten's rage at least in the tiniest way? John was constantly whining about the "cheating" in front of Baten and anyone else within earshot. That's trying with all your might while simoultaneously sabotaging yourself.

Are you seriously claiming John's whining wasn't bad and that it didn't have an impact?

Unlike John, I'm not currently trying to prevent a war from breaking out (unless I've missed something big here). It does not matter if I'm condescending by asking what episode some people were watching. John's whining didn't really help his message of peace.

Why do I even talk to you anymore?

You know what? Think whatever you want and I think what I want... I'm not going to take the time anymore to dig up previous posts made by you to prove that something you said doesn't fit to previous posts made by yourself if you don't have the guts to admit being proven wrong. Its not worth it.

We're not in pre-school and I have better things to do with my time than talking to a wall.

FallenAngelII
December 26th, 2006, 01:55 PM
Please dig up one single post where I claimed John is war-hawky/war-mongering in real life. One single post. And I'll leave these forums forever.

Just because I don't make sure my posts can never be misinterpreted in any way doesn't mean your interpretation of it is the absolute truth. I have never, to my knowledge, once called John a monger of war or a hawk of battle in real life.

Every single time I used such terms, I was talking about his actions in the game.

I'm sorry for not making crystal clear posts where I go out of my way to make sure no one could possibly misinterpret it in any way. And I'm sorry for sometimes making posts that are easy to misinterpret, especially when read in passing and not heard spoken out loud like in real conversations. That's my fault.

But I'm not going to conceed/admit to saying something (as in meaning it) or saying something in a way I've never said it.

caty
December 26th, 2006, 02:04 PM
Please dig up one single post where I claimed John is war-hawky/war-mongering in real life. One single post. And I'll leave these forums forever.

Just because I don't make sure my posts can never be misinterpreted in any way doesn't mean your interpretation of it is the absolute truth. I have never, to my knowledge, once called John a monger of war or a hawk of battle in real life.

Every single time I used such terms, I was talking about his actions in the game.

I'm sorry for not making crystal clear posts where I go out of my way to make sure no one could possibly misinterpret it in any way. And I'm sorry for sometimes making posts that are easy to misinterpret, especially when read in passing and not heard spoken out loud like in real conversations. That's my fault.

But I'm not going to conceed/admit to saying something (as in meaning it) or saying something in a way I've never said it.




While Rodney is competitive and no doubt wanted to win over John, it wasn't by force. John, however, being the warhawk that he is, immediately assumed an attack was coming and planned for it, making his people think it was coming.


The comment "John, however, being the warhawk that he is" is a general comment about the person John Sheppard..... It doesn't matter in the least in what context it stands...

You know, it's OK to say "I admit, I misphrased that, but I really meant it quite differently." But the hostility with which you claim that you haven't said certain things that you did say is only gonna earn you similar hostility in return.

I'm done with that.

FallenAngelII
December 26th, 2006, 02:12 PM
The comment "John, however, being the warhawk that he is" is a general comment about the person John Sheppard..... It doesn't matter in the least in what context it stands...

You know, it's OK to say "I admit, I misphrased that, but I really meant it quite differently." But the hostility with which you claim that you haven't said certain things that you did say is only gonna earn you similar hostility in return.

I'm done with that.
I misphrased that. I should've added "In the game". Yes, it's my fault you misinterpreted it (as in misinterpreted what I wanted to say).

Hostility? I apologized (sincerely, I might add) twice in my last post (in consecutive sentences, no less) for not being clearer. I don't see how you can interpret it as hostility. Some of the more cynic people might interpret it as sarcasm. But not hotstility.

I'm sorry, but I'm not some monster who's out to pick fights with every post I make. You don't have to read my posts assuming that anything that can be interpreted as hostile is hostile.

caty
December 26th, 2006, 02:39 PM
I misphrased that. I should've added "In the game". Yes, it's my fault you misinterpreted it (as in misinterpreted what I wanted to say).

Hostility? I apologized (sincerely, I might add) twice in my last post (in consecutive sentences, no less) for not being clearer. I don't see how you can interpret it as hostility. Some of the more cynic people might interpret it as sarcasm. But not hotstility.

I'm sorry, but I'm not some monster who's out to pick fights with every post I make. You don't have to read my posts assuming that anything that can be interpreted as hostile is hostile.

The problem was that you made it seem like I was some kind of moron for interpreting what you said the way I did. Sarcasm does that. And having someone imply that I am not intelligent enough to read their posts right is hostility to me..
BTW: The post that you are talking about where you apologized (sincerely) for not making it clear enough isn't the one I am talking about. That one was OK. It's the one before that and I was still mad about that when I replied to your post.

FallenAngelII
December 26th, 2006, 02:41 PM
The problem was that you made it seem like I was some kind of moron for interpreting what you said the way I did. Sarcasm does that. And having someone imply that I am not intelligent enough to read their posts right is hostility to me..
BTW: The post that you are talking about where you apologized (sincerely) for not making it clear enough isn't the one I am talking about. That one was OK. It's the one before that and I was still mad about that when I replied to your post.
"Just because I don't make sure my posts can never be misinterpreted in any way doesn't mean your interpretation of it is the absolute truth."

It was not meant to be hostile. It's a simple fact. People misinterpret. And you seemed to be set on that I meant that John's a war-hawk in real life and that nothing I could say would absolve me from that.

Sure, it was my fault for not phrasing it correctly. But you should have taken my word for it when I said that I didn't mean it "in that way".

Besides, never once have I implied you're intellectually challenged if you misinterpret someone's posts unless it's a grave misinterpretation (at which point I'll ask "Did you actually read my post?") as in "I like pie" -> "I hate puppies".

caty
December 26th, 2006, 02:47 PM
"Just because I don't make sure my posts can never be misinterpreted in any way doesn't mean your interpretation of it is the absolute truth."

It was not meant to be hostile. It's a simple fact. People misinterpret. And you seemed to be set on that I meant that John's a war-hawk in real life and that nothing I could say would absolve me from that.

Sure, it was my fault for not phrasing it correctly. But you should have taken my word for it when I said that I didn't mean it "in that way".

No, the point is that you even asked me to find a post that stated that you had said that John was a warhawk and I did find one (two, to be correct).
Instead of saying politely "Yes, it sounded like it in this post, but that is really not what I meant" you started implying things about me and the way I should and should not read your posts.
That got me going for the mentioned reasons. Not because you didn't phrase it correctly or because I think my interpretation is always correct (which I'm sure isn't)..
I knew long before what you meant, but you challenged me to find that post, so what did you expect? It's the attitude...

FallenAngelII
December 26th, 2006, 03:00 PM
No, the point is that you even asked me to find a post that stated that you had said that John was a warhawk and I did find one (two, to be correct).
Instead of saying politely "Yes, it sounded like it in this post, but that is really not what I meant" you started implying things about me and the way I should and should not read your posts.
That got me going for the mentioned reasons. Not because you didn't phrase it correctly or because I think my interpretation is always correct (which I'm sure isn't)..
I knew long before what you meant, but you challenged me to find that post, so what did you expect? It's the attitude...
You had already quoted that post before I made the challenge and I'd already shot it down as a poorly worded post. Thus, it was inadmissable.

And In the same breath, I admitted to being the one at fault for my post being misinterpreted. I cannot for the life of me find a post (at least posted today) where I claim one is stupid if one misinterprets my posts or that there's a special way in which one should interpret them.

I have merely pointed out that I've been misinterpreted and that I've been the one at fault.

caty
December 26th, 2006, 03:07 PM
You had already quoted that post before I made the challenge and I'd already shot it down as a poorly worded post. Thus, it was inadmissable.

And In the same breath, I admitted to being the one at fault for my post being misinterpreted. I cannot for the life of me find a post (at least posted today) where I claim one is stupid if one misinterprets my posts or that there's a special way in which one should interpret them.

I have merely pointed out that I've been misinterpreted and that I've been the one at fault.

I didn't say you claimed, I said you implied..

It's right here:
"But apparentely I have to make everything crystal clear: No, I do not think he wanted the war in real life nor that he's a war-hawk in real life."

I'm sorry, but I can't -for the life of me- stand this attitude towards others ...

FallenAngelII
December 26th, 2006, 03:12 PM
I was simply upset because I was gravely misinterpreted. It didn't imply you're stupid. It implied that I apparentely have to make myself perfectly clear when talking about John in order to not come off as John-bashing.

It implied me being grumpy over being misinterpreted.

Nolamom
December 26th, 2006, 03:58 PM
Wanted some quotes of where FallenAngelII said that John had pushed towards war *after* finding out that it was not just a game?


<snip>The fact remains, all Rodney did ('til he started stealing coal) was give his people technological advancement. John chose to keep his people on the same level and instead turned their nation into a war-nation.

Then he further inflamed things by repeatedly showing animosity towards Rodney and his side when in Baten's company (not a smart thing to do).



<snip>Of course they both thought it was a game, but you must admit that had John not sent those gifts or prepared for war, which prompted Rodney to respond, the war would not have come to be.

Yes, it wasn't his fault that the war started per se. But he was one who did the big things. Plus the ill blood he kept showing around Baten when trying to negotiate a truce, always repeating how the other side was cheating and agreeing with Baten on how bad they were.

Sidenote: Not approving of everything a character does does not equal hating them. So I disapprove of his sexual adventures and what he did in this episode. Obviously I must hate him.



<snip>Then, once they'd discovered the game they were playing was real, while Rodney tried with all his might (though stumbling along the way and stuttering and not doing a very good job at it) at pacifying Nola, John kept saying Rodney cheated, insulting Rodney and talking badly about him and his people with Baten right there. Heck, he even agreed with some of Baten's points (some of which lead to war).

While Rodney did things that would later result in war, it was John's reactions to them (and the way he reacted) that lead to war.

Assuming someone is going to attack you just because they're researching steam engines and hot air balloons is not exactly a very peaceful way of thinking.

Yes, they both wanted to win, but through different means. Rodney wanted his people to be the most prosperous while John no doubt had a military mindset, not only wanting his people to be the most prosperous but almost the greatest war nation.

While Rodney played the game like The Sims 2, John played it like Warcraft 3.

FallenAngelII
December 26th, 2006, 04:14 PM
None of those quotes show me saying John pushed for war after finding out it wasn't a game. They show me criticizing his constant whining about "cheating", which inflamed matters and didn't really help things.

But saying that does not equal saying John actively and knowingly or in any way pushed for a way to occur.

NinaM
December 26th, 2006, 04:42 PM
None of those quotes show me saying John pushed for war after finding out it wasn't a game. They show me criticizing his constant whining about "cheating", which inflamed matters and didn't really help things.

But saying that does not equal saying John actively and knowingly or in any way pushed for a way to occur.

Then why is that you seems to criticize everything John did..?? Why not put the same amount on Rodney,,he cheated... if he hadn't would John had done differently...??

Everything I've read just gets me the same picture...John=bad....Rodney=Good little boy who can do nothing wrong...

Why did he cheat in the first place..?? so in all he might has well started to whole darn thing...

FallenAngelII
December 26th, 2006, 04:49 PM
Then why is that you seems to criticize everything John did..?? Why not put the same amount on Rodney,,he cheated... if he hadn't would John had done differently...??

Everything I've read just gets me the same picture...John=bad....Rodney=Good little boy who can do nothing wrong...

Why did he cheat in the first place..?? so in all he might has well started to whole darn thing...
I've criticized Rodney. In fact, I've said it time and again that Rodney did things wrong in this episode as well. In the beginning, I saw it as John doing a lot more things wrong than Rodney but just recently I conceeded to having changed my mind. Now they're almost equally responsible.

When did I ever claim Rodney could do nothing wrong?

And I still don't think it's cheating. Ok, so what did Rodney do, exactly? He gave his people technology.

How long have they been playing? For over two years! If you play a game where you're either playing a Real-Time Strategy game (Starcraft/Warcraft/Civilization) or a Life Simulator (The Sims (2)), two years is a lot of time!

How is it cheating to give them technology in that much time (when you think it's a game). How long should Rodney have waited? Should he have played it at a real-time pace? As in, he should wait 50 years for each step?

FallenAngelII
December 26th, 2006, 05:05 PM
So a lot of people, seemingly the majority of people here, have automatically assumed that Rodney did cheat because John said so (even though Rodney contested this).

I assume it's because Rodney is portrayed as arrogant and therefore when he and John disagree, John must be right.

Because let's look at the big picture here:
According to them both, they found the game shortly after coming there. What does this mean? It means they've been playing the game for probably over two years!

Two years!

Now imagine yourself playing such a game. It seems to be a mixture between Civilization and The Sims 2.

These games do not run in real time! You do not tell your Sim to go cook dinner and then wait for half an hour for them to cook dinner, another half hour for them to eat it and then spent 30 minutes in the show, 5 on the loo and then 8 hours asleep! Such a game would be ridiculosu and no one would ever buy it!

The same with Civilization. I have yet to play it, but I've played other Real-Time Strategy games. What I do know about Civilization is that it's like Sim City (another RTS).

You start from scratch, you build a village and then try to expand that into an empire. Of course, things do not go in Real Time!

Imagine the tediousness and stupidity of having to wait five months for a house to be built. Could you seriously imagine yourself playing such a game?!

"How far have they gotten in the 8 hours I was asleep? What?! They slept themselves?!"

In two years of Real Time, millennia have passed by in a Real Time Strategy game.

Let's look at how much Rodney advanced the Geldarians. We assume that both the Geldarians and Hallonians were at a Medieval level B.R and B.J (Before Rodney and Before John).

Rodney advanced them a few hundred, let's say six hundred, years (because the Dark Ages hampered out scientific development). He did this over the course of two years.

And we know that they must know that "the game" kept on going even when they weren't there because they must've left it alone for a few hours to go to Lunch or something only to return to see it going strong and doing what they told it to do.

So, 600/2 = 300. Rodney advanced the Geldarians 300 years a year. Which means that he advanced them 1 year per 6 hours, 50 minutes and 20 seconds.

In "Civilization" and "Sim City", one year passes much faster than that!

So do you still consider it as cheating? What pace would you have played the game at? Real Time?

Would you have waited, oh, say, 10 years between introducing new things to your people? But actually, in order to play a game at Real Time, you have to wait hundreds of years between each tier of technology, like going from catapults to people with steam engines and blimps!

Would you have played a game at a speed at which you'd barely be able to give your people anything before you died?!

FallenAngelII
December 26th, 2006, 05:06 PM
I re-direct you all here, btw (concerning the "cheating"):
http://forum.gateworld.net/showthread.php?p=6133396#post6133396

Agent_Dark
December 26th, 2006, 05:37 PM
If Rodney was simply taking advantage of the way things work in a game, it wasn't cheating. At the very worst it was exploiting a bug in the game, but you could hardly call the option to advance a society's technology a bug. Cheating (or 'hacking') would mean that Rodney was using a third party program to modify the game in a way that advantages himself, say by making it so he could give himself large resource injections any time he wanted. Shep was just doing what every other noob who is getting owned does - claim hax.

FallenAngelII
December 26th, 2006, 05:49 PM
If Rodney was simply taking advantage of the way things work in a game, it wasn't cheating. At the very worst it was exploiting a bug in the game, but you could hardly call the option to advance a society's technology a bug. Cheating (or 'hacking') would mean that Rodney was using a third party program to modify the game in a way that advantages himself, say by making it so he could give himself large resource injections any time he wanted. Shep was just doing what every other noob who is getting owned does - claim hax.
This post wins the thread.

Seriously speaking, this is a very valid point. Besides the whole "How can it be cheating if he took 2 friggin' years to do this"-matter, isn't John just being a sore loser for not being able to advannce his own people, hence claiming hax?

Nolamom
December 26th, 2006, 09:11 PM
This post wins the thread.

Seriously speaking, this is a very valid point. Besides the whole "How can it be cheating if he took 2 friggin' years to do this"-matter, isn't John just being a sore loser for not being able to advannce his own people, hence claiming hax?

Two years isn't a long time if you consider that they haven't spent all their time playing. They have had some other things to do, if I recall. Of course, missions are so unimportant compared to gaming, eh?

One other point - we don't know that McKay *didn't* modify the parameters of the "game" to allow him to speed up the technological advancement of his people. He certainly has the skills to do so. I rather doubt that Shepard has those skills. I could be wrong. Purely speculative, but within keeping with the startlingly rapid advancement McKay subjected his people to. It seems unlikely that the Ancients would have put in such a parameter. They were wiser than that.

Agent_Dark
December 26th, 2006, 09:57 PM
It seems unlikely that the Ancients would have put in such a parameter. They were wiser than that.
Why couldn't have they? Wasn't the original purpose of the 'game' a social experiment to figure out how to properly seed life throughout the Pegasus galaxy? Speeding up technological advancement would be well within the lines of such an experiment, since they would want to see the ramifications of introducing a 'primitive' human society to their advanced tech. That theme (the 'primitive' society getting access to advanced tech) has been used quite a lot in SG1 as well, so it's not anything new.

FallenAngelII
December 26th, 2006, 10:04 PM
Two years isn't a long time if you consider that they haven't spent all their time playing. They have had some other things to do, if I recall. Of course, missions are so unimportant compared to gaming, eh?

One other point - we don't know that McKay *didn't* modify the parameters of the "game" to allow him to speed up the technological advancement of his people. He certainly has the skills to do so. I rather doubt that Shepard has those skills. I could be wrong. Purely speculative, but within keeping with the startlingly rapid advancement McKay subjected his people to. It seems unlikely that the Ancients would have put in such a parameter. They were wiser than that.
I doubt the Ancients put in any kind of restrictions. It was their experiment. And what the heck would those restrictions be? An AI that would block all commands if it deemed you gave your people too much technology.

They didn't spend all of their time playing the game, but they'd been playing it for over two years. Anyone who plays a game of RTS for over two years would give their people a couple of hundred years of scientific advancement.

Also, Rodney and John aren't stupid. Over the course of 2 years, they must have noticed that the game went on even when they weren't playing, like it was running on AI alone on those occasions. So to Rodney, he'd really been playing almost non-stop for 2 years.

Would you seriously play an RTS for 2 years (even if it's on-and-off only a day or two a week) without giving them a few hundred years of scientific progress?

Linzi
December 26th, 2006, 11:38 PM
Why do I even talk to you anymore?

You know what? Think whatever you want and I think what I want... I'm not going to take the time anymore to dig up previous posts made by you to prove that something you said doesn't fit to previous posts made by yourself if you don't have the guts to admit being proven wrong. Its not worth it.

We're not in pre-school and I have better things to do with my time than talking to a wall.
The posts you quoted proved your points wonderfully, Caty :) Well done for taking the time to dig those out to prove your point! Game, set and match to you, :lol: What's written in black and white can't be ignored, well, not by those who actually have their eyes open ;).
I too no longer wish to participate in discussions here. It's pointless when the same points are being re-hashed, and statements are being contradicted. So, to all those who made interesting and insightful points - thank you for such a wonderful discussion! :)

Linzi
December 26th, 2006, 11:47 PM
I've criticized Rodney. In fact, I've said it time and again that Rodney did things wrong in this episode as well. In the beginning, I saw it as John doing a lot more things wrong than Rodney but just recently I conceeded to having changed my mind. Now they're almost equally responsible.

When did I ever claim Rodney could do nothing wrong?

And I still don't think it's cheating. Ok, so what did Rodney do, exactly? He gave his people technology.

How long have they been playing? For over two years! If you play a game where you're either playing a Real-Time Strategy game (Starcraft/Warcraft/Civilization) or a Life Simulator (The Sims (2)), two years is a lot of time!

How is it cheating to give them technology in that much time (when you think it's a game). How long should Rodney have waited? Should he have played it at a real-time pace? As in, he should wait 50 years for each step?
Though I'm no longer participating, I just wanted to finish by answering this post. What did Rodney do? HE STARTED THE AGGRESSION BY ORDERING NOLA TO ORDER THE DRILLING FOR COAL ON THE HALLONAN'S LAND WITHOUT THEIR PERMISSION. That is an aggressive act that was extremely provocative. It was after that the aggression started. Constantly you have denied this was a problem, because 'what would the Hallonan's do with it anyway?'. That one act, ordered by the oracle, Rodney, started the whole conflict. If he hadn't done that no response would've been ordered by Baden. But seeing as how it was all a game, I think it's not important who did what to whom whilst playing the game. The events after the game was revelaed to be real are what count, and Sheppard showed what a decent person he is and showed culpability for BOTH of his and McKay's actions by sorting the mess out, after both received a swift kick up the rear from Weir. I actually was on Weir's side with that one. She clearly was stunned that Rodney had ordered Nola to make an incursion on the Hallonan's land though. Anyway, thanks again to everyone for the interesting debate. :)

FallenAngelII
December 27th, 2006, 12:11 AM
Though I'm no longer participating, I just wanted to finish by answering this post. What did Rodney do? HE STARTED THE AGGRESSION BY ORDERING NOLA TO ORDER THE DRILLING FOR COAL ON THE HALLONAN'S LAND WITHOUT THEIR PERMISSION. That is an aggressive act that was extremely provocative. It was after that the aggression started. Constantly you have denied this was a problem, because 'what would the Hallonan's do with it anyway?'. That one act, ordered by the oracle, Rodney, started the whole conflict. If he hadn't done that no response would've been ordered by Baden. But seeing as how it was all a game, I think it's not important who did what to whom whilst playing the game. The events after the game was revelaed to be real are what count, and Sheppard showed what a decent person he is and showed culpability for BOTH of his and McKay's actions by sorting the mess out, after both received a swift kick up the rear from Weir. I actually was on Weir's side with that one. She clearly was stunned that Rodney had ordered Nola to make an incursion on the Hallonan's land though. Anyway, thanks again to everyone for the interesting debate. :)
Um... I was talking about Rodney's perceived "cheating", not about the agression or who was to blame for what.

I brought up the discussion of "Was it really cheating" a few posts back, because, really, they were playing what they thought was a game for over 2 years. Of course it's justified to give them some technology.

In fact, I blame John for being too slow with his village. 2 years and apparentely he gave his village no scientific advancement at all (or at least very little such)?

Atlantean_Fan
December 27th, 2006, 04:42 AM
Um... I was talking about Rodney's perceived "cheating", not about the agression or who was to blame for what.

I brought up the discussion of "Was it really cheating" a few posts back, because, really, they were playing what they thought was a game for over 2 years. Of course it's justified to give them some technology.

In fact, I blame John for being too slow with his village. 2 years and apparentely he gave his village no scientific advancement at all (or at least very little such)?
How can you know that? Sheppard is a very low key character and he does things beneath the curtain most of the time when it comes to Rodney's territory as if he didn't want to deliberatly invade it since it's not why he's there.

We saw nothing of the Hallonan villages, we just saw Baden and his female aide on the console room, which looked just like the Geldarian one BTW. How can you imply anything?

Not to mention that Baden did get pretty offended with the coal theft. I stand by my last on topic post that he didn't act like the coal was irrelevant or just trade commodity in that meeting between him, Nola and Weir. No to mention too that he said his weapons weren't as primitive as Nola believed and that Nola herself was surprised that the Hallonans had bombs too when she thought they were being attacked by their army in the end, but didn't think that it was impossible for them to achieve it which tells me something. If she didn't believe they could have bombs too the realism of the simulation would end right then and there. That tells me something about how the Hallonan's average village would be like, perhaps not as advanced as the Geldarian ones as far as the gadgetry goes, but not so far behind either on the basic stuff.

The thing is you can't say that Sheppard didn't advance his people or how much since there are only hints to what he did to his country besides the military increase, he said several times that the Game was about improving the conditions of live of their lands and I really don't think that the only thing he did in two years was increase his army, do you? I have a better opinion of Sheppard than that even if he thought it was just a game in the beginning.

The cheating here is not in hacking the system which McKay proved he can do when he did so to upload the doomsday scenario in the end, but on the fact that he did use information theoretically unavailable to the other player to gain the upper hand. That's also cheating in my book and apparently in Sheppard's too.

Pegasus_SGA
December 27th, 2006, 06:42 AM
Does anyone else feel that the entire war was most John's fault? Rodney was giving his people technology, yes, but John immediately interpreted that as them planning to one day overthrow his people.

Then came the treaty negotiations. Sure, Rodney's demands were high-strung but John retaliated by the immature gesture of sending him things he knew Rodney was deadly allergic to.

And then whenever they talked about it in front of Baten, John kept sneering about how Rodney "cheated" and blah blah, showing off hostility, which Baten no doubt picked up.

And how stupid don't you have to be to realize that that typing and those beeps you just heard was Baten inputting commands into the console?!

Sure, Rodney was partly to blame. The thing with the coal was a low blow, but what the heck was John doing with it, anyway? Her was just letting it sit there.

Sure, Rodney did things that set things in motion. But every single time, it was John's reactions that triggered the inevitable war.

Had John not been as immature and war-hawky, they would still have had peace, only with a botched trade treaty.

In a nutshell, 'No'. It wasn't all Sheppard's fault, both were unintentionally at fault. If you remember the whole thing was 'beleived' to be a game, nothing more. The title of the episode gives a clue to that. Initially McKay and Sheppard found some ancient device, which McKay believed was a virtual reality game room. At that point and for some years later the two of them continued to play their 'virtual game' until Lorne and his team discovered the planet. It was only after Lorne showed McKay the flag with his face on that they both realised it was real. And subsequently had to try and amend the problems they had both created. McKay had given the villagers too much information for their stage in their evolutionary process, information that they used to build weapons and such. Sheppard in response to McKay's technological enhancement created a larger army. Why? Because, people (and I use the term generally) use the knowledge and experience of what they know best. John's is military, McKay's is scientific.

From what I was able to perceive from the ep, and it really is just my perceptions, was that they both had ground rules on how they were going to run their respective countries, and McKay cheated (broke the rules of engagement - whichever way you want to look at it) by giving them something they weren't ready for. As a result Sheppard did the same thing. Both were at fault equally, but since it was never intended to be a real scenario, neither were to blame for what happened. Granted they shouldn't have been playing with stuff they didn't understand, but in their defence, if I was in their shoes, I think i'd want to touch buttons on something I didn't know, lol, but i'm curious that way - and so are Sheppard and McKay.

With regards to Sheppards actions regarding overthrowing them? I never saw that at all? Which scene was that in? What I saw was the leader in Sheppards part of the world, not listening to Sheppard and wanting to take over McKay's world after McKay's leader began burrowing under Sheppard's side. Is that the part you meant?

The treaty negotiations, was petty. McKay wasn't trading fairly (from what we have been able to ascertain from the ep.) We don't know what the trade was about, or what they were trading. We only know (from Sheppard) that the negotiations were unfair. Yes Sheppard sent him lemons, lol, but it's a long standing joke with them (see SG1 ep- the Pegasus Project, I think it was called.) Firstly they were virtual lemons, and secondly he wasn't sending them to McKay perse, he was sending it to the inhabitants, and we have no knowledge that they were allergic to them. McKay told them lemons were bad, that's why they were offended. Was it petty? Absolutely. But this is McKay and Sheppard we're talking about here, boys and their toys and all that, and men play practical jokes on each other, I think its a gene thing, lol. Anyway, that is their character, and personally, I thought it was quite funny *g*.

At the end of the day, who was the aggresor of the two countires? Baten? or the woman...sorry can't for the life remember her name and i'm too lazy to look it up. Each of them was the aggressor, in their own way. The girl was just more subtle about it in her actions, and in her demenour. So, Sheppard harped on about Rodney cheating? He was ticked off, becasue he may beleive that if he hadn't cheated they wouldn't be in the mess they were in. Who knows he may be right, but we will never know. I'm guessing you had a problem with John about this aspect because he was being a tattle tale? Or was he just being honest? Something McKay always subscribes to. I'm not defending either of them btw I think they both erred in judgement along the way, but they tried to make both sides see that by creating hostility over can do nothing but come to grief (as shown by the ending).

I have read your post again and again and cannot see how Sheppard was solely responsible for what happened. Both made wrong decisions in their respective worlds and on the planet to some degree. But, warlike? Did Sheppard increase his army when he found out the game was real? Did Sheppard order the man to start a counter attack on the other side? No, he didn't he tried to prevent it, and he even told the leader of his army to back off and let them handle the negotiations. So i'm curious how you see this.

Baten typing command codes into the game? Must've missed that bit, but ultimately once McKay and Sheppard realised it wasn't a game and these were flesh and blood people living real lives, did they have a right to interfere? That's questionable. Did Sheppard have an legality on stopping the army's moving forward, no, he didn't because at that point in the game, both sides weren't listening to either Sheppard or McKay, so how could he have prevented it?

I never expected to post this much, lol, but needs must and all that. I've said it once and i'll say it again, but in a nutshell *g*. Both were responsible for the confliction on the planet, but only because to them it was a game, nothing more. And when they did find out it was real, they had a moral obligation to fix things, as problems only started when they were both playing. Weir understood the ramifications, as shown by her dissaproval of Radek and Lorne (maybe the game is addictive?) Either way they tried to make it right in the end by showing them that nothing good comes from fighting and not listening to each other's point of view. It's a good lesson.

Scully

Nolamom
December 27th, 2006, 10:28 AM
The posts you quoted proved your points wonderfully, Caty :) Well done for taking the time to dig those out to prove your point! Game, set and match to you, :lol: What's written in black and white can't be ignored, well, not by those who actually have their eyes open ;).
I too no longer wish to participate in discussions here. It's pointless when the same points are being re-hashed, and statements are being contradicted. So, to all those who made interesting and insightful points - thank you for such a wonderful discussion! :)
It's the same story every time with poster X. Argue, argue, argue...ignore the posts the refute the points and declare victory if one person agrees. Not much fun playing with that sort of an attitude.

psychofilly
December 27th, 2006, 11:11 AM
Also, though John increased the size of his military, he was trying to react defensively. He asked Rodney for lumber to build fortifications (from the convo in the puddlejumper), not warships.

John was reacting defensively, not offensively. Which is completely in character since he commands the military on atlantis which is one big defensive position.

For those that said something about John not advancing tech, he didn't. His people had the same building (built by the ancients) but they had no electricity because he hadn't advanced them that far scientificly.

But again, they were playing a game. John didn't concentrate on it, because he had no way of knowing he was dooming people to a life without electric lights and tech.

This conversation can go round and round ad-nauseum. I still maintain that the fault was divided equally between John, Rodney and the people on the planet and John and Rodney worked together to fix it, despite acting like five year olds in the first half of the episode.

They were both okay with each other at the end of the ep and trying to assign blame to one over the other seems pretty pointless at this stage of the game. Both guys screwed up, trying to assign a weight to their wrong doings to see which one screwed up more is just as petty as John's continued refrain of "Rawd-neee cheated!"

Atlantean_Fan
December 27th, 2006, 01:41 PM
For those that said something about John not advancing tech, he didn't. His people had the same building (built by the ancients) but they had no electricity because he hadn't advanced them that far scientificly.

But again, they were playing a game. John didn't concentrate on it, because he had no way of knowing he was dooming people to a life without electric lights and tech.
Rodney also didn't give the Geldarians electricity, Nola had candles in her console room just like in Baden's one. It is pretty clear in the scene right before Rodney and Ronon are beamed to the Daedalus. As I said we don't know what happened in Hallona because we saw nothing of it at all and the only place we saw was equal in both countries: Ancient console, windows with sun coming in and candles.

psychofilly
December 27th, 2006, 01:49 PM
Rodney also didn't give the Geldarians electricity, Nola had candles in her console room just like in Baden's one. It is pretty clear in the scene right before Rodney and Ronon are beamed to the Daedalus. As I said we don't know what happened in Hallona because we saw nothing of it at all and the only place we saw was equal in both countries: Ancient console, windows with sun coming in and candles.

Ah, I'll have to rewatch. I based that comment off the rather accusatory way that John said they didn't have electricity, Didn't he say something like, it's the ame as the other place, only no electricity? I only saw the ep twice, so far. :)

Atlantean_Fan
December 27th, 2006, 02:29 PM
Ah, I'll have to rewatch. I based that comment off the rather accusatory way that John said they didn't have electricity, Didn't he say something like, it's the ame as the other place, only no electricity? I only saw the ep twice, so far. :)
When was that scene? Abou the electricity I mean? I don't remember it.

psychofilly
December 27th, 2006, 02:43 PM
When was that scene? Abou the electricity I mean? I don't remember it.

It was about 3/4 through the ep. When they bring Nola and Baden back after visiting Atlantis. Found a transcript.

McKAY: Sheppard. Come in.
SHEPPARD: Go ahead.
McKAY: Are you watching what’s going on here?
SHEPPARD: We just got here.
(He walks inside the room to join Teyla. The room looks similar to the Geldar console room, but is only lit by candles.)
SHEPPARD: Pretty much the same set-up as yours. We don’t have electricity, but I’m not gonna get into that right now.
McKAY: Your army is still on the march.
SHEPPARD: What?!

The emphasis Shep puts on the electricity made me think Geldar had it, though I wasn't paying strict attention to the Geldarian lighting.

Mitchell82
December 27th, 2006, 03:54 PM
Though there has been alot of agression between afew posters you all have made good points. While I enjoyed this episode I will try to adrees my thoughts on this matter. Rodney and john both thought the Ancient monitoring device was a game similar to Sims and Civilization and mabey WOW(world of Warcraft). Both Rodney and John are obviously agressive players and in a similar game I would likely take a similar approach to either John or Rodney's tactics depending on which side i was on. Now both thought this was only a game and hence had no lasting consequences. Now grant it since it was real they made some big mistakes. Rodney demanded huge concesions from Halona and was unwilling to bargin and was illegally drilling for coal. John aggrivated yhings by increasing his army. However they both thought it was a game and as a game this was acceptable. When they both realized, they did their best to ease tensions and succeded. This is just my opinion.

Luz
December 27th, 2006, 07:09 PM
Though there has been alot of agression between afew posters you all have made good points. While I enjoyed this episode I will try to adrees my thoughts on this matter. Rodney and john both thought the Ancient monitoring device was a game similar to Sims and Civilization and mabey WOW(world of Warcraft). Both Rodney and John are obviously agressive players and in a similar game I would likely take a similar approach to either John or Rodney's tactics depending on which side i was on. Now both thought this was only a game and hence had no lasting consequences. Now grant it since it was real they made some big mistakes. Rodney demanded huge concesions from Halona and was unwilling to bargin and was illegally drilling for coal. John aggrivated yhings by increasing his army. However they both thought it was a game and as a game this was acceptable. When they both realized, they did their best to ease tensions and succeded. This is just my opinion.

that's what I keep coming back too, I start to think that maybe Rodney did cheat, that maybe Sheppard did rush to conclusions when he doubled his army. And then I remember that the guys thought it was a game, and maybe cheating is wrong, but it was only a game, and these guys wouldn't put real people in dnager, and they did try to fix things when they realized it was real.

Ruined_puzzle
December 27th, 2006, 07:46 PM
First half was funny and actually interesting than I got bored and was just waiting for it to finish.

michael_wells
December 28th, 2006, 01:58 AM
I was surprised rodney didn't give them more advanced weapons tech, like muskets.

Anyone think the visuals for the game itself we a little on the primitive side?
I mean it looks like a RTS from 2002 or something.

Agent_Dark
December 28th, 2006, 03:08 AM
I was surprised rodney didn't give them more advanced weapons tech, like muskets.

Anyone think the visuals for the game itself we a little on the primitive side?
I mean it looks like a RTS from 2002 or something.

Ancients were still using DirectX 7.

Mitchell82
December 28th, 2006, 07:19 AM
Ancients were still using DirectX 7.

LOL!

FallenAngelII
December 29th, 2006, 02:08 PM
How can you know that? Sheppard is a very low key character and he does things beneath the curtain most of the time when it comes to Rodney's territory as if he didn't want to deliberatly invade it since it's not why he's there.

We saw nothing of the Hallonan villages, we just saw Baden and his female aide on the console room, which looked just like the Geldarian one BTW. How can you imply anything?

Not to mention that Baden did get pretty offended with the coal theft. I stand by my last on topic post that he didn't act like the coal was irrelevant or just trade commodity in that meeting between him, Nola and Weir. No to mention too that he said his weapons weren't as primitive as Nola believed and that Nola herself was surprised that the Hallonans had bombs too when she thought they were being attacked by their army in the end, but didn't think that it was impossible for them to achieve it which tells me something. If she didn't believe they could have bombs too the realism of the simulation would end right then and there. That tells me something about how the Hallonan's average village would be like, perhaps not as advanced as the Geldarian ones as far as the gadgetry goes, but not so far behind either on the basic stuff.

The thing is you can't say that Sheppard didn't advance his people or how much since there are only hints to what he did to his country besides the military increase, he said several times that the Game was about improving the conditions of live of their lands and I really don't think that the only thing he did in two years was increase his army, do you? I have a better opinion of Sheppard than that even if he thought it was just a game in the beginning.

The cheating here is not in hacking the system which McKay proved he can do when he did so to upload the doomsday scenario in the end, but on the fact that he did use information theoretically unavailable to the other player to gain the upper hand. That's also cheating in my book and apparently in Sheppard's too.
The coal theft is irrelevant. John didn't think they'd build a secret mine, so he didn't count that as cheating (as he was whining about the "cheating" long before the mine was discovered).

When I say "Not much", I mean "Not much" when you put it into perspective. They'd been playing for over 2 years. And he thinks advancing the people are few hundred years was "cheating"? Then how much did he advance his own people?

And why would it be cheating if Rodney used his knowledge of science to advance his people? How is it cheating just because John can't teach his people the same things? Would it be cheating if John taught his army American war tactics? Because Rodney probably doesn't know much about it.

It's pretty clear John thought Rodney was cheating because he gave his people scientific advancement. I'm sure he could've done the same things had he wanted to (there are books).

Scully: That post is veeeery old and we've come a very long way since then. I have already discussed those things to death and will therefore not talk about them again. Please backtrack to read the posts I made following that one.

People seem to not want to discuss (or they just missed it) my suggested point of discussion: Was Rodney's advancement of his people really cheating? When considering the facts that he thought he was playing an RTS (one which played on AI alone when he wasn't playing it, I mean, he must've noticed that even if he shut the thing down (if such a thing was possible), his people would keep construction, procreating, whatever) and he advanced his people a few hundred years over the course of over two years of real life time.

I mean, wouldn't you advance your people a lot if you played an RTS-game for over two years?

Pegasus_SGA
December 29th, 2006, 02:24 PM
When I say "Not much", I mean "Not much" when you put it into perspective. They'd been playing for over 2 years. And he thinks advancing the people are few hundred years was "cheating"? Then how much did he advance his own people?

And why would it be cheating if Rodney used his knowledge of science to advance his people? How is it cheating just because John can't teach his people the same things? Would it be cheating if John taught his army American war tactics? Because Rodney probably doesn't know much about it.

Scully: That post is veeeery old and we've come a very long way since then. I have already discussed those things to death and will therefore not talk about them again. Please backtrack to read the posts I made following that one.

Thanks, I'm aware of the posts and they weren't that old. But you're still making the same arguments though? So how can it have moved on? We still have your concerns over John's whining and still don't accept that McKay did cheat. They had the rules of engament that the two of them were going to abide by, otherwise the word 'cheating' would never have been brought up in the ep. Given this, there was a standard that they both had to abide by, and when one person falls foul of said agreement in a game, it's called cheating.

Yes, I do believe that McKay cheated with giving Geldar technological advances that at their stage of their evolotionary process, they weren't ready for. In any game you have a set of rules that you abide by, if someone deviates from said rules then it's cheating, no matter what way you look at it. McKay gave his people electricity, knoweldge to build sophisticated bombs as well as flying propultions (although rudimentary). Yes, Sheppard did increase his army, in response to McKay's actions. Was it right? No, it wasn't, but two wrongs don't make a right, and in response to Sheppards increasing army, McKay increased his. So know we've got a pre-technological society increasing their army and using knowledges of explosives, it's a lethal combination, and one that they weren't ready for. The Geldar country were the aggressors in this, they entered illegally into someone elses country.

FallenAngelII
December 29th, 2006, 02:42 PM
Thanks, I'm aware of the posts and they weren't that old. But you're still making the same arguments though? So how can it have moved on?
The post you quoted and the post you replied with brought up a lot of things that are irrelevant to my current position that what Rodney did wasn't really cheating.

You brought up an old post where I said I believed John carried the most blame (when I've since said that I now regard that they were pretty equal in amount of blame). And you even replied to it talking about how in your opinion, they were equal, thus, bringing up old points.


We still have your concerns over John's whining and still don't accept that McKay did cheat. They had the rules of engament that the two of them were going to abide by, otherwise the word 'cheating' would never have been brought up in the ep. Given this, there was a standard that they both had to abide by, and when one person falls foul of said agreement in a game, it's called cheating.
We have no idea what the rules were, if they were in-game rules or rules they set up. They never clarified just what these rules were.

And the question remains unanswered (by you): Would you consider it cheating if I advanced my village by a few hundred years over the course of two years of real life time?

According to the episode, the rule said something not advancing their people too fast. But was it really too fast?

They were playing a game. For over two years. Rodney advanced his people a few hundred years. How would you have played the game? How would you interpret the rule of not advancing your people too fast?

Even if they did set up rules of engagement, we only know that the rule was about not advancing their people too fast. And just how fast "too fast" is is in the eyes of the beholder. John thought it was too fast; Rodney did not.

I don't think it was too fast. You might not.


Yes, I do believe that McKay cheated with giving Geldar technological advances that at their stage of their evolotionary process, they weren't ready for. In any game you have a set of rules that you abide by, if someone deviates from said rules then it's cheating, no matter what way you look at it. McKay gave his people electricity, knoweldge to build sophisticated bombs as well as flying propultions (although rudimentary).
It's a gave. Their stage of the evolutionary process is irrelevant. Besides, we actually have no idea what stage they're at. They've apparentely been at their level of technology since the Ancients left Earth 10,000 years ago.

Which means that 10,000 years ago, they were more advanced than we were.

Rodney gave them technology for a lot things. They combined these things into a bomb. Rodney cannot be blamed for that. As you said yourself, they thought it was a game. What, Rodney was supposed to foresee that his little Sims could figure out how to build a bomb on their own (he sounded mighty surprised)?

Sure, him giving them technology caused it. But that doesn't automatically mean he cheated.

Mitchell82
December 29th, 2006, 03:35 PM
The post you quoted and the post you replied with brought up a lot of things that are irrelevant to my current position that what Rodney did wasn't really cheating.

You brought up an old post where I said I believed John carried the most blame (when I've since said that I now regard that they were pretty equal in amount of blame). And you even replied to it talking about how in your opinion, they were equal, thus, bringing up old points.


We have no idea what the rules were, if they were in-game rules or rules they set up. They never clarified just what these rules were.

And the question remains unanswered (by you): Would you consider it cheating if I advanced my village by a few hundred years over the course of two years of real life time?

According to the episode, the rule said something not advancing their people too fast. But was it really too fast?

They were playing a game. For over two years. Rodney advanced his people a few hundred years. How would you have played the game? How would you interpret the rule of not advancing your people too fast?

Even if they did set up rules of engagement, we only know that the rule was about not advancing their people too fast. And just how fast "too fast" is is in the eyes of the beholder. John thought it was too fast; Rodney did not.

I don't think it was too fast. You might not.


It's a gave. Their stage of the evolutionary process is irrelevant. Besides, we actually have no idea what stage they're at. They've apparentely been at their level of technology since the Ancients left Earth 10,000 years ago.

Which means that 10,000 years ago, they were more advanced than we were.

Rodney gave them technology for a lot things. They combined these things into a bomb. Rodney cannot be blamed for that. As you said yourself, they thought it was a game. What, Rodney was supposed to foresee that his little Sims could figure out how to build a bomb on their own (he sounded mighty surprised)?

Sure, him giving them technology caused it. But that doesn't automatically mean he cheated.

I agree. Rodney was trying to technologically evolove his people slowly, which was the point of the whole thing. To monitor and help as needed. He gave them simple technology that they were able to use to evolve. There is no fesabile way Rodney could know that they would build a bomb. Hence I don't think he cheated.

Pegasus_SGA
December 29th, 2006, 03:38 PM
The post you quoted and the post you replied with brought up a lot of things that are irrelevant to my current position that what Rodney did wasn't really cheating.

You brought up an old post where I said I believed John carried the most blame (when I've since said that I now regard that they were pretty equal in amount of blame). And you even replied to it talking about how in your opinion, they were equal, thus, bringing up old points.] Some of the points may be classed as 'old', and i'm pleased to see that you changed your mind to some degree over this ep with regards to the blame being all Sheppards :) So, lets debate over Rodney's cheating :) as it seems to be a thorn in your side. It always amazes me how two people can watch an ep and can have tottaly different voices on the same scenes they've watched, but it makes for a great discussion :)


[QUOTE]
We have no idea what the rules were, if they were in-game rules or rules they set up. They never clarified just what these rules were.

And the question remains unanswered (by you): Would you consider it cheating if I advanced my village by a few hundred years over the course of two years of real life time?


No, I agree with you, there were no clear defining rules. It would've been nice and would've saved a whole load of debating *g* Would I consider it cheating if you advanced your village? Yes, if we had prior agreement with each other that there would be set guidelines on how we developed our countries. Even advancing a culture a few hundred years in two years is a HUGE ecological advancement for a civilisation that may not be ready for it. Part of the definition of cheating is; To violate rules deliberately, as in a game. So by that standard for Sheppard to say he was cheating, we (and I use the term royally) perceive that there were indeed ground rules for the game. So, let me put the question back to you? If we were playing the game and I advanced my civilisation several hundred years ahead of what stage of the evolutionary process they should be, whould you say I was cheating?




According to the episode, the rule said something not advancing their people too fast. But was it really too fast?


Who's to say what advances are too fast. I don't think that there is a clear definition of what should and shouldn't be given to people who are less advanced than ourselves. But I quite like the Star trek argument, and superior races of not providing technology to worlds that aren't ready for them. Some people would probably disagree with me on this, but it's my opinion. I've seen what devastion is like first hand and i've also seen people given advancements that they are not ready for, and they do abuse it, because it gives them power over those that are not advanced. And that's why I believe, technology/science should be at a natural pace.



They were playing a game. For over two years. Rodney advanced his people a few hundred years. How would you have played the game? How would you interpret the rule of not advancing your people too fast?

Even if they did set up rules of engagement, we only know that the rule was about not advancing their people too fast. And just how fast "too fast" is is in the eyes of the beholder. John thought it was too fast; Rodney did not.

I don't think it was too fast. You might not.


Ooooh there's an intersting question :) How would I have played it? Mmmm, well it would depend on several factors, such as what stage they were already at. What tools they had at their disposal, what was their knowledge like on science, agriculture, technology etc and go from there. You can point someone in the right direction without telling them what to do, because how would they learn otherwise? People (again I use the term generically) learn from their mistakes, but if they're handed it to them on a plate, they'd never learn a thing. I agree that mcKay didn't think he was giving them knowledge to expediantly, but he was, because he broke the rules of engagement. Until we know though what they were we will never know if he did cheat or not. But from what is said in the ep, (by Sheppard) he did cheat.



It's a gave. Their stage of the evolutionary process is irrelevant. Besides, we actually have no idea what stage they're at. They've apparentely been at their level of technology since the Ancients left Earth 10,000 years ago.

Which means that 10,000 years ago, they were more advanced than we were.


Absolutely, I agree with you on this. We have no idea what they were like pre-game (so to speak) and yep you're right they were more advanced than us, but their development was stunted because no one was giving them assistance, and maybe they'd lost their way of thinking for themselves, which can happen in any society. But look at the advancement the Geldar's had made by McKay compared to John? Was it right that he was giving them specifications to make weapons, bombs or flying machines? From what I remember, and I may be wrong here, but didn't Sheppard comment on the fact that the Halowan's even had a bicycle? Maybe that gives us an indication of what they were like before?



Rodney gave them technology for a lot things. They combined these things into a bomb. Rodney cannot be blamed for that. As you said yourself, they thought it was a game. What, Rodney was supposed to foresee that his little Sims could figure out how to build a bomb on their own (he sounded mighty surprised)?

Sure, him giving them technology caused it. But that doesn't automatically mean he cheated.

Yes he can be blamed for giving them details of explosive materials, he had a choice, he chose the wrong one. If I was playing a game, would I give my civilisation matches to light fires or give them the chemical compunds of what they're made of? If they're smart enough to figure out the chemical compunds and say backward engineer something like that, then maybe they would be ready for more. But again, unfortunately we didn't get to see how advanced they were. Lol, I wonder how many people are thinking of their SIMS game differently after this ep, lol. I know it was it a game, and I know that Sheppard and McKay thought it was a game, but all games have rules and if you break those rules you are cheating. Would you be ticked off if you were playing a game and the person you were playing with cheated? At the end of the day, they both made wrong decisions, but as i've mentioned above in the definition of cheating, by all accounts McKay cheated otherwise why would the script writers have put in the words, 'McKay cheated' if it wasn't fact?

FallenAngelII
December 29th, 2006, 04:04 PM
Please fix broken quotes if you screw them up.


No, I agree with you, there were no clear defining rules. It would've been nice and would've saved a whole load of debating *g* Would I consider it cheating if you advanced your village? Yes, if we had prior agreement with each other that there would be set guidelines on how we developed our countries. Even advancing a culture a few hundred years in two years is a HUGE ecological advancement for a civilisation that may not be ready for it. Part of the definition of cheating is; To violate rules deliberately, as in a game. So by that standard for Sheppard to say he was cheating, we (and I use the term royally) perceive that there were indeed ground rules for the game. So, let me put the question back to you? If we were playing the game and I advanced my civilisation several hundred years ahead of what stage of the evolutionary process they should be, whould you say I was cheating?
Who are you (or John) to dictate what state a game's inhabitants' evolutionary state should be? It's a game. Why are you assuming Rodney cheated just because John said so despite the fact that Rodney kept emphasizing that he did not cheat?

You're automatically taking John's side.

We have no idea what the rules were besides the fuzzy "Not too much advancement"-rule. It's also a game. Ecological and whatever levels, schemcological and schmeckever levels.

What level should they have been on to receive technlogy? I'd say they're on a higher ecological and evolutionary level than we are if they came to roughly the level of Hallonia over 10,000 years ago. They're only now getting technological advancement because they were waiting for their oracles.

And also, it's a game. Who are you to say John's more equipped to judge how far a group of people has to have developed ecologically (please explain what you mean by this, BTW) than Rodney?

If it was an RTS and we were playing, I would not see you advancing your people a few hundreds in two years of real life as cheating. It would not breach the fuzzy "Not too much advancement too fast"-rule.

Two years. That's 730 days (731 with a leap year) of time! Not mention it's been more than 2 years now!


Who's to say what advances are too fast. I don't think that there is a clear definition of what should and shouldn't be given to people who are less advanced than ourselves. But I quite like the Star trek argument, and superior races of not providing technology to worlds that aren't ready for them. Some people would probably disagree with me on this, but it's my opinion. I've seen what devastion is like first hand and i've also seen people given advancements that they are not ready for, and they do abuse it, because it gives them power over those that are not advanced. And that's why I believe, technology/science should be at a natural pace.
Apparentely, according to you, John. None of those things matter.

It was a game! They both thought it was a game! What, Rodney should've been afraid of his A.I. inhabitants going to war on their own defying his orders?

I could give my Sims a nuke today and it wouldn't really matter much because it's a game.


Ooooh there's an intersting question :) How would I have played it? Mmmm, well it would depend on several factors, such as what stage they were already at. What tools they had at their disposal, what was their knowledge like on science, agriculture, technology etc and go from there. You can point someone in the right direction without telling them what to do, because how would they learn otherwise? People (again I use the term generically) learn from their mistakes, but if they're handed it to them on a plate, they'd never learn a thing. I agree that mcKay didn't think he was giving them knowledge to expediantly, but he was, because he broke the rules of engagement. Until we know though what they were we will never know if he did cheat or not. But from what is said in the ep, (by Sheppard) he did cheat.
It was a game! Please understand this. And he broke the rules according to John! Why are you assuming John's right Rodney's wrong just because John said so?


Absolutely, I agree with you on this. We have no idea what they were like pre-game (so to speak) and yep you're right they were more advanced than us, but their development was stunted because no one was giving them assistance, and maybe they'd lost their way of thinking for themselves, which can happen in any society. But look at the advancement the Geldar's had made by McKay compared to John? Was it right that he was giving them specifications to make weapons, bombs or flying machines? From what I remember, and I may be wrong here, but didn't Sheppard comment on the fact that the Halowan's even had a bicycle? Maybe that gives us an indication of what they were like before?
Rodney did not give the Geldarians any specifications to make weapons or bombs. He gave them specifications to make bikes, blimps and probably minor explosives for, oh, mining. They made bombs from that.

To him, it was a game! And I'll say it again: Two years.

Yes, John thinks the Hallonian having bicycles is cheating. Does this really speak for his ability to judge what's cheating and what isn't?


Yes he can be blamed for giving them details of explosive materials, he had a choice, he chose the wrong one. If I was playing a game, would I give my civilisation matches to light fires or give them the chemical compunds of what they're made of? If they're smart enough to figure out the chemical compunds and say backward engineer something like that, then maybe they would be ready for more. But again, unfortunately we didn't get to see how advanced they were. Lol, I wonder how many people are thinking of their SIMS game differently after this ep, lol. I know it was it a game, and I know that Sheppard and McKay thought it was a game, but all games have rules and if you break those rules you are cheating. Would you be ticked off if you were playing a game and the person you were playing with cheated? At the end of the day, they both made wrong decisions, but as i've mentioned above in the definition of cheating, by all accounts McKay cheated otherwise why would the script writers have put in the words, 'McKay cheated' if it wasn't fact?
Do you really think John and Rodney thought they could figure out stuff on their own, that they were super-intelligent A.I.s that would turn whatever they taught them into something else?

It was a game!

Rodney did nothing wrong when giving them the things he did (the act itself was not wrong).

Since when is it a fact if one character says something (while another denies it)? Even when that one whiner is saying it repeatedly? Especially in the way John said it? The script writers most probably just wanted some humurous banter between the two.

John thought Ancient = Ascended Being. Sam's been wrong on numerous occasions (though always gotten it right in the end).

I think your love for John is clouding your judgement. I really do. It's not "A character said it, it's true". It's "John said it, it's true". I would never assume something Rodney says is 100% true without ever questioning it just because he was the one who said it. Would you have accepted it as a fact if someone said "John cheated" even though he denied it?

In Real Time Strategy/civilization games, years fly by very quickly. One real-life hour can equal a year to tens of years of in-game time. If they had been playing the game for over two years, several hundred years had passed in game, possibly millennia (if it had been a real game).

How would you have played an RTS game where you just knew the following:
* You command a village, how they live, what they do, their advancement, all the way down to their Sims.
* The game does not stop when go go away. It runs continously, but they'll do things exactly as you tell them to.

Would you stall their development by barely developing them at all in two whole years? I doubt you would.

Pegasus_SGA
December 29th, 2006, 05:33 PM
Please fix broken quotes if you screw them up. That's a lovely way to treat a newbie. I am learning to use the bits and bobs on quotes so forth, and for future reference, if someone is messing up with quotes, then it's polite to say, 'I see you're struggling with dealing with quotes, can I help?" That would have been a nice courteus reply.



Who are you (or John) to dictate what state a game's inhabitants' evolutionary state should be? It's a game. Why are you assuming Rodney cheated just because John said so despite the fact that Rodney kept emphasizing that he did not cheat?

You're automatically taking John's side.


Excuse me? Did you or did you not ask me the question, if I was playing the game what would I do? so I gave you my answer (very politely to). I am well aware that it was a game before their trip to the planet. When did I say it wasn't a game? I gave you my reasonings behind why I believed Rodney cheated. If you watch the episode again, you will find subtle points made in the ep, that Rodney deviated from the rules of engagment. If you want, I can point them out to you here? As for taking sides? How am I doing that? By making a point that was clear in the show that McKay cheated? Yes, McKay protested that he didn't, but c'mon when does McKay not protest, lol. This is not about taking sides, it's about looking at the whole of the ep and interpreting what we see. The powers that be chose to inform us throughout the ep that Rodney made technological advancements that he shouldn't have. If you choose to see otherwise, fine. that's your opinion, I was stating fact based on what I saw and what the definition of cheating is. If you can prove that he didn't cheat (apart from the words of Rodney saying he didn't cheat), then i'll concede and accept that I made a mistake in my interpretation.




We have no idea what the rules were besides the fuzzy "Not too much advancement"-rule. It's also a game. Ecological and whatever levels, schemcological and schmeckever levels.

What level should they have been on to receive technlogy? I'd say they're on a higher ecological and evolutionary level than we are if they came to roughly the level of Hallonia over 10,000 years ago. They're only now getting technological advancement because they were waiting for their oracles.


I said that to you earlier, and agreed with you on that point, and acknowledge and have stated consistantly throughout my posts that it was always believed to be just a game. Like I said to you in my previous post, it depends on the level they had to begin on what level of technology they should have received. But that bit was skipped over, so we have no knowledge on what their levels were at, so its a mute point about what I would give them, or what should have been given to them, but it should have been at a level that they were ready for, not enhanced by several hundred years. It should have been developed progressibely, so that can learn for themselves. Yes, they were waiting for their oracles to give them instructions, but my question is, why? Why didn't they develop themselves further? Why couldn't they think for themselves, make their own decisions, progress their development on their own. instead they had to wait for instructions. So what does that say about their society? To me that says that are not ready for the development they were given. What does it say to you?




And also, it's a game. Who are you to say John's more equipped to judge how far a group of people has to have developed ecologically (please explain what you mean by this, BTW) than Rodney?

If it was an RTS and we were playing, I would not see you advancing your people a few hundreds in two years of real life as cheating. It would not breach the fuzzy "Not too much advancement too fast"-rule.

Two years. That's 730 days (731 with a leap year) of time! Not mention it's been more than 2 years now! Apparentely, according to you, John. None of those things matter.


You keep repeating the word game? Nobody is disputing that fact. I'm not saying that John is equipped to judge what level of development a society should have, but neither was Rodney. Were any of the Atlantis team equipped to do that? Weir didn't think so, in fact she was furious when she find out and even had a go at Lorne and Radek for interfering. What do I mean by ecologically? Is that the word you want me to explain? Neither of them should have been playing around with the console when they didn't know what it did. That was their biggest mistake.

Excuse my ignorance as i'm technically inept (apparently), what do you mean by RTS? I don't play games, so I don't understand the abbreviation. Who said that the 2 years they were playing didn't matter? I didn't. But let me put this to you, have you ever tried to advance a poor society? Do you know how long it takes to get things moving. Two years is not a long time in the grand scheme of things. How long have we been pouring money and aid into 3rd world countries and it hasn't made any difference? Maybe we should just send them over McKay :) And the name's Scully, not John.




It was a game! They both thought it was a game! What, Rodney should've been afraid of his A.I. inhabitants going to war on their own defying his orders?

I could give my Sims a nuke today and it wouldn't really matter much because it's a game.


It was a game! Please understand this. And he broke the rules according to John! Why are you assuming John's right Rodney's wrong just because John said so?


*head...brick wall* Yes, you've said it many times, and i've acknowledged it many times, it's a game. What's your point? I'm not saying that in the context of the game, people wouldn't go all out, or wouldn't cheat to beat their opponenent. I've cheated in a game :) But as I said above in this really long post (sorry readers) is that EVERY game has rules. I believe what the writers gave us, and they hinted throughout the ep...by John that McKay cheated. Did we ever hear McKay say he didn't advance them significantly? No, we didn't. Did we hear multiple times that the society was more advanced than what they should have been? Yes.[/B]




Rodney did not give the Geldarians any specifications to make weapons or bombs. He gave them specifications to make bikes, blimps and probably minor explosives for, oh, mining. They made bombs from that.

To him, it was a game! And I'll say it again: Two years.

Yes, John thinks the Hallonian having bicycles is cheating. Does this really speak for his ability to judge what's cheating and what isn't?


No, he didn't give them specifications, but he did give them the information to make the explosives. Explosives are explosives, whatever way you look at it, and they can do a hell of a lot of damage even on a small scale. But the point is they didn't use the explosives did they? Do we know if they did or they didn't? What we were shown in the ep is that they were going to use the knowledge of explosives to bomb the other side. Again with the Game and the two years.... It wasn't just the bicycles. May I make a suggestion and that is for you to watch the ep again?




Do you really think John and Rodney thought they could figure out stuff on their own, that they were super-intelligent A.I.s that would turn whatever they taught them into something else?

It was a game!


That who were super intelligent AI's? You lost me there.



Rodney did nothing wrong when giving them the things he did (the act itself was not wrong).

Since when is it a fact if one character says something (while another denies it)? Even when that one whiner is saying it repeatedly? Especially in the way John said it? The script writers most probably just wanted some humurous banter between the two.


I certainly never said that giving people things were wrong. I said that giving people things they weren't ready for is wrong. That is my opinion. Other's, i'm sure think there was nothing wrong with what Rodney did. I don't think he whined, I think he was just pissed off with the whole situation. I agree that TPTB do play the banter between the two, (which I love btw), but it wasn't just that one line of 'Rodney cheated' it was other things that occurred throughout the ep.



John thought Ancient = Ascended Being. Sam's been wrong on numerous occasions (though always gotten it right in the end).


what has this got to do with the Game, and what we're discussing? Where does ancient and Sam fit into all of this?

[QUOTE]
I think your love for John is clouding your judgement. I really do. It's not "A character said it, it's true". It's "John said it, it's true". I would never assume something Rodney says is 100% true without ever questioning it just because he was the one who said it. Would you have accepted it as a fact if someone said "John cheated" even though he denied it?


My love for John? Is that what you've had to stoop to? That's really sad. So sad in fact, i'm not going to dignify it with a response. So shall we move on to your next point?

I never make assumptions, I base my logic on fact and the fact it Rodney cheated, not just because of what Sheppard said, but because the ep suggested it, nothing more. And for the record, i'd probably believe it if someone said Sheppard cheated :)



In Real Time Strategy/civilization games, years fly by very quickly. One real-life hour can equal a year to tens of years of in-game time. If they had been playing the game for over two years, several hundred years had passed in game, possibly millennia (if it had been a real game).

How would you have played an RTS game where you just knew the following:
* You command a village, how they live, what they do, their advancement, all the way down to their Sims.
* The game does not stop when go go away. It runs continously, but they'll do things exactly as you tell them to.

Would you stall their development by barely developing them at all in two whole years? I doubt you would.


Thank you for clarifying what RTS is, I have no knowledge of those games, and don't have any real need to familiarise myself with them either, to be honest. I know people who play them and love them to bits, but it's not for me. It's irrelevant how I would play the game, besides I already gave you an inkling in my earlier post about what I wouldn't do. We are talking about what occurred in this ep, in this game, not what I would or wouldn't do. Since I have no knowledge of playing games online or otherwise, I wouldn't know what i'd do with that scenario, and until i'm sat at a console like the one in the game or play a game like that online then I don't know. If you're asking me if i'd break the rules of the game if I played it, then yes, i'd probably give it a good go, lol.

Well it's been great debating with you about this, but it's time for my bed, so I bid you farewell for now.

FallenAngelII
December 29th, 2006, 05:48 PM
That's a lovely way to treat a newbie. I am learning to use the bits and bobs on quotes so forth, and for future reference, if someone is messing up with quotes, then it's polite to say, 'I see you're struggling with dealing with quotes, can I help?" That would have been a nice courteus reply.
You have 90+ posts. I assumed you knew how to use quotes. And I actually used the polite term "Please". Contrary to popular belief, I am not sarcastic 100% of the time.

I was merely asking you to edit yourself to fix broken quotes so that it'll be easier for me when I quote you.


Excuse me? Did you or did you not ask me the question, if I was playing the game what would I do? so I gave you my answer (very politely to). I am well aware that it was a game before their trip to the planet. When did I say it wasn't a game? I gave you my reasonings behind why I believed Rodney cheated. If you watch the episode again, you will find subtle points made in the ep, that Rodney deviated from the rules of engagment. If you want, I can point them out to you here? As for taking sides? How am I doing that? By making a point that was clear in the show that McKay cheated? Yes, McKay protested that he didn't, but c'mon when does McKay not protest, lol. This is not about taking sides, it's about looking at the whole of the ep and interpreting what we see. The powers that be chose to inform us throughout the ep that Rodney made technological advancements that he shouldn't have. If you choose to see otherwise, fine. that's your opinion, I was stating fact based on what I saw and what the definition of cheating is. If you can prove that he didn't cheat (apart from the words of Rodney saying he didn't cheat), then i'll concede and accept that I made a mistake in my interpretation.
You're bringing up irrelevant issues like the planet's ecological level and whatnot. It was a game. Whether the people had come to a point where they could ecologically or socially handle science was irrelevant. There were mere game characters.

What subtle points? Other than John whining about cheating and the mention of the fuzzy rule?

The powers that be made it clear that Rodney gave out dangerous information that lead to the Geldarians building a bomb. It's to show that you should not advance a people artifically too fast... in real life.

In no way does it prove Rodney cheated in the game.

Please forgive me, but I got genuinely bored (not trying to be offensive here) after this. Because you keep bringing in sociological standpoints and ecological whatevers and other irrelevant things when considering that to John and Rodney, it was just a little RTS-game.

And I've wasted enough time repeating myself in this thread and it's obvious that should we continue this, we'll only keep repeating ourselves.

I'll do short summarized answers:
It's a game. They set up the rule that you should not advance your side too much within too little time. John deemed that Rodney did just that. Rodney, however, did not.

How can you blindly think John's right? And it doesn't matter that it turned out not to be a game. John thinking Rodney was cheating is not supported by that fact.

RTS means Real-Strategy Game. Have you ever played games like "Civilization" or, say, "Sim City"? In videogames where you build things and watch them evolve, you never play in real time. One minute in real life will never equal one minute in the game.

Therefore, what was 2 years for us would've been 1000s of years in the game. That is why I'm saying Rodney didn't cheat.

Would you really have played Sim City at the speed of real life, waiting, oh, 6 months for a house to finish building?

How long it takes in real life means nothing. To them, it was a game. And in RTS:es, things never go as slowly as in real life. Imagine playing a game where you had to build an empire. At everything went in real time.

It takes 6 months for a house to finish, four to ten years for a castle, heck, you'll have to stop playing at regular hours each day because everyone went to bed.

Please, don't try to blame you. You went into this conversation not understand what an RTS is and not asking about it up 'til now.

If it's not your love for John, then it's your hatred or at least disdain for Rodney. You said so yourself.


Yes, McKay protested that he didn't, but c'mon when does McKay not protest

As if it's less valid of a protest if Rodney claims he didn't cheat above, oh, say, Radek claiming he didn't cheat. John says Rodney cheated. Rodney says he didn't. We can't know who's telling the truth unless we examine the evidence and go from there.

And the evidence is:
* They were playing a game.
* Nobody plays RTS:es in real life.
* Rodney actually played the game slower than games like Sim City and Civilization.

If you cannot understand the concept of RTS and have never played one, please tell me so so we can stop discussing this as it's a moot point if you don't know what RTS:es are.

And I refuse to believe that you would ever play an RTS as if it were real life.

I'll ask you these things one more time (again, not trying to be offensive):
* Please make sure the quotes are not broken (there's the Preview Post-button) although so far your quotes haven't been horribly broken.
* Explain what the heck "Ecologically" means.

Alipeeps
December 29th, 2006, 07:57 PM
So FAII, it seems the main point of your argument is that Rodney didnt cheat because they were playing an RTS and in RTS' the timeline always moves a lot faster than in real life and you don't play in "real time", so your Sims get married and have babies and build houses in a the space of a couple of hours not months and years and your city grows and develops and makes technological advances in the space of just a few hours in SimCity etc etc. Right?

We don't know how the game was set up in The Game and whether or not Rodney and John thought it was running at faster than real time or not - though, I have to say, I would have thought that after two years of playing, they would have noticed that things were happening in real time.. after all, if they instructed their country to, for example, build a new house, it would have taken the real people (which, before you say it, they didn't know about at the time) weeks or months to do so and so it would have taken weeks or months for it to show on their game consoles that the house had been completed. I think therefore it's a fairly safe bet that they DID know and had realised that the game was real time - and maybe they were happy to play it that way, maybe they found that interesting.

But leaving that point aside, let me ask you this:

If they did think the game was playing at faster than real life speeds and Rodney did advance his country's level of technology by hundreds of years within just two years+ of game play because he thought that's how the game was to be played - then why didn't John do the same? Why wasn't John playing the game under the same understanding? If that is how they thought the game functioned and that it was like The Sims or SimCity and you advanced your society much more quickly than in real life, why would John not have also advanced his society by hundreds of years? Why would he choose not to advance his society and then claim Rodney was cheating simply by doing what he had chosen not to do?

FallenAngelII
December 29th, 2006, 08:13 PM
We've theorized about why John didn't advance his people. He either didn't want to (or just did it slowly), or as (someone else, not I) someone put it: He didn't have the skills to.

I mean, John's a soldier. Sure, he could have been in MENSA, but that's just a test of intelligence, not knowledge. Why should we expect him to know how to build a bicycle from scratch?

Also, this is Rodney we're talking about. Do you seriously think he'd spend time playing a game that was running in Real Time for over two years?

"Oh hey, go build a house over there. I'll just go away for 6 months now."

Wait a minute, we'd stumbled upon an improtant plot hole here:
Why the Hell would Rodney and John play an RTS in Real Time and not once think it might not be a game?

I mean, who'd ever think of creating a Sim City/Sims-like game that runs in Real Life?!

And even if they were too uncharacteristically dense they didn't realize that the Ancient tech they were tinkering with wasn't what it appeared to be (hi hi, ho, ho, ha, ha), why would they play such a game?!

OK, so my point with this post is:
A) They didn't realize it was running in real time, hence why Rodney didn't think he was cheating (because really, advancing your people by 100s of years in two years of real time? But then again, why would they even be playing such a game?!)
B) They did realize it was running in real time and uncharacteristically didn't even consider that it might be an Ancient experiment and uncharacsteristically also thought that it was a fun game to play!

Actually, we can't discuss this point further because we don't know whether they were both too stupid to realize it was running in real time or if they were just too stupid to realize what a stupid game such a game would be (either way, they're both idiots)!

Pegasus_SGA
December 30th, 2006, 03:12 AM
You have 90+ posts. I assumed you knew how to use quotes. And I actually used the polite term "Please". Contrary to popular belief, I am not sarcastic 100% of the time.

I was merely asking you to edit yourself to fix broken quotes so that it'll be easier for me when I quote you.


It's hard online to know when someone is being sarcastic, that's why we have the smilie icons, so that people know the expressions you're trying to convey. I am learning how to use the buttons and quotes, and ask that you be patient with me. Although I have 90+ posts, that's been within a year of joining, which equates to not much posting unfortunately due to RL.



You're bringing up irrelevant issues like the planet's ecological level and whatnot. It was a game. Whether the people had come to a point where they could ecologically or socially handle science was irrelevant. There were mere game characters.


How is bringing up the planet's ecoloogical level irrelevant? That was the whole point of the game to begin with to see who can develop their society the best. The word ecological is the branch of sociology concerned with studying the relationships between human groups and their physical and social environments, or the study of the detrimental effects of modern civilization on the environment, with a view toward prevention or reversal through conservation. Does that help? That was that premise of the game when Sheppard and McKay started it all. Yes it was a game, but as Rodney pointed out to Nola in the ep the results of Rodney's instructions were sent back in Real Time. How long does it take to build a road? Or build irrigations and saitation systems. How long does it take to install electricity and enhance a civilisation. If it was happening in Real time, and I can quote Rodney word for word on this, then surely this should have given some indication that not everything was as it appeared? Therefore they should have noticed before now how long something was taking to create it unlike the SIMs game.



What subtle points? Other than John whining about cheating and the mention of the fuzzy rule?


I'm referring to the point that was made, that the village was medieval, yeat Rodney had installed technology, and yes the bicycle, the weapons, the blimps. McKay brought them up from the medival period to the Renaisssance period...quite a development when everything is happening in real time.



The powers that be made it clear that Rodney gave out dangerous information that lead to the Geldarians building a bomb. It's to show that you should not advance a people artifically too fast... in real life.

In no way does it prove Rodney cheated in the game.


Yes, I know what their subtle message was, but if things were happening in real time then Rodney should have been more careful and abided by the rules of the game. If you remember the console was extreemly sophisticated and you could literally provide instructions on everything (like building a world from scratch). Why then would you provide them with the means to make weapons from the early stages? It may have been in response to Sheppard building his army, but we don't know that. As i've said before they (before they began playing) must have set each other ground rules, and McKay deviated from said ground rules by advancing his people. I've never said that John didn't cheat, who know's he may have cheated by increasing his army. But TPTB decided to let the viewers now that McKay gave the Geldar people too much technology for their stage in their develpment. Something that was out of context for the game. Remember this was all done in real time, not SIM's time.




Please forgive me, but I got genuinely bored (not trying to be offensive here) after this. Because you keep bringing in sociological standpoints and ecological whatevers and other irrelevant things when considering that to John and Rodney, it was just a little RTS-game.

And I've wasted enough time repeating myself in this thread and it's obvious that should we continue this, we'll only keep repeating ourselves.


Lol. But they are relevant points, because it wasn't just a little RTS game, Sheppard and McKay throughly enjoyed it, because it was so lifelike. But I understand your boredom :)



I'll do short summarized answers:
It's a game. They set up the rule that you should not advance your side too much within too little time. John deemed that Rodney did just that. Rodney, however, did not.

How can you blindly think John's right? And it doesn't matter that it turned out not to be a game. John thinking Rodney was cheating is not supported by that fact.

RTS means Real-Strategy Game. Have you ever played games like "Civilization" or, say, "Sim City"? In videogames where you build things and watch them evolve, you never play in real time. One minute in real life will never equal one minute in the game.

Therefore, what was 2 years for us would've been 1000s of years in the game. That is why I'm saying Rodney didn't cheat.

Would you really have played Sim City at the speed of real life, waiting, oh, 6 months for a house to finish building?

How long it takes in real life means nothing. To them, it was a game. And in RTS:es, things never go as slowly as in real life. Imagine playing a game where you had to build an empire. At everything went in real time.

It takes 6 months for a house to finish, four to ten years for a castle, heck, you'll have to stop playing at regular hours each day because everyone went to bed.

Please, don't try to blame you. You went into this conversation not understand what an RTS is and not asking about it up 'til now.

If it's not your love for John, then it's your hatred or at least disdain for Rodney. You said so yourself.


I think we may have to agree to disagree on the point of the cheating :) I understand where you're coming from and that you believe whole heartedly that McKay didn't cheat, and i that's the way you see it, fine. I don't think we will ever agree on this point. I've given my reasons why he did cheat, but you haven't explained why you think he didn't apart from Rodney said so. But as you said we'll probably end up getting bored with the whole repeating of arguments. So we will agree to disagree on this? And debate something else? *g* Such as, maybe why the Geldars didn't want to advance their society when the ancients left? Just throwing it out there...

I'm almost paraphrasing McKay here when he was explaining to Nola how the 'game worked. But hopefully it will give you an understanding that in this 'game' real time is a major factor here. McKAY: As soon as we input the instructions into our console, they are relayed back to this device by a number of satellites in orbit over your planet. Once you've carried out instructions, then satellite transmit the real time results back to us on our home world.


As for your last point, why do you keep insisting that my apparent love for John, or my apparent disdain for Rodney has anything to do with this discussion? It's irrelavant. And I don't think you're qualified to make that assessment of what which characters I do and don't like. So, please don't make this into a school yard squabble, because I don't do personal. Who you like and who I like is not applicable to this argument.



As if it's less valid of a protest if Rodney claims he didn't cheat above, oh, say, Radek claiming he didn't cheat. John says Rodney cheated. Rodney says he didn't. We can't know who's telling the truth unless we examine the evidence and go from there.

And the evidence is:
* They were playing a game.
* Nobody plays RTS:es in real life.
* Rodney actually played the game slower than games like Sim City and Civilization.

If you cannot understand the concept of RTS and have never played one, please tell me so so we can stop discussing this as it's a moot point if you don't know what RTS:es are.

And I refuse to believe that you would ever play an RTS as if it were real life.


I've given you the evidence, and i'm quite prepared to watch the ep again and quote you word for word (of necessary) how the TPTB scripted the ep to show that Rodney cheated. I will do that if necessary, but as I've said above would those fact really change your mind?

With regards to the RTS scenario, it is now a moot point as i've indicated above, because the game was conducted in real time, thus ending your argument on time scales and what have you.



I'll ask you these things one more time (again, not trying to be offensive):
* Please make sure the quotes are not broken (there's the Preview Post-button) although so far your quotes haven't been horribly broken.
* Explain what the heck "Ecologically" means.


I shall try and work on my quotes bit, and just ask that you be patient a little longer while I get the hang of it. And I shall try multiple quoting on the newbie thread. I do check the preview and it seems to be ok my end, but i'll make more of an effort in future to learn about the technology on this board :)

Lol, I hope i've explained what ecological means above. But if you need a clearer definition then i'm happy to oblige :)

NinaM
December 30th, 2006, 05:45 AM
I checked a little piece of the episode,,,and the thing is that over two years time Rodney advanced them a lot...
The thing is they advanced their society like maybe hundreds of years in two years,,,but the thing is it was two years for the people on that planet too...

If it took that long for them why would the game console show them the rate any faster...

When they went to that planet the woman told them they had contact with the oracle thousands of years ago but it suddenly stopped.. and then she says he returned TWO years ago....

If the console would play out the game in a way faster rate then in real time well then it would have been moving faster all together...
Why would his console show anything at that faster rate and then when it comes down to it time has only moved two years on the planet...

Just think about all the things you could do when you play a game that goes that fast...(my brother has played them so I know what those are) but just think about all those things Rodney must have done over the two years of playing,,how in the world could the people do all those things in the space of two years since she clearly states the oracle started communicating two years ago after leaving them thousands of years ago... unless they just have to snap their fingers in the village and things will be done...

saberhagen83
December 30th, 2006, 07:24 AM
With regards to the RTS scenario, it is now a moot point as i've indicated above, because the game was conducted in real time, thus ending your argument on time scales and what have you.

Ah forgive me to walk into your debate. ;) But I was under the impression that the time of the game was never known to Sheppard and Rodney untill they found out it was actually real. So like any game where you build a civilization you move forward much faster than RL development. You don't play Sim City for example for 100 years IRL before your city grows and more technology is installed in the city.

I don't really care if Rodney and/or Sheppard "cheated" in the game at all, as two years with a game is a very long time. Development should have come quite far in this time. Now if they knew it was in real time? We don't know that, it's never mentioned when they explained the game, and a clock or calendar isn't visible on the screens. Perhaps it was in ancient, but do any of them read ancient?

Just my thoughts. Perhaps they did mention they knew the game was in real time before they knew it was real? I can't remember them saying anything like that though, so correct me if I am wrong.

FallenAngelII
December 30th, 2006, 07:24 AM
I never said "The game" played faster in real time. I say all games that are like that play faster in real time. Because it would be extremely boring to play a game that played out in real time.

Just because Rodney figured out just how the satellites and consoles worked after finding out it wasn't a game doesn't mean he knew it before finding out. Because, really, why the heck would they play an RTS in real time speed?

I personally believe they didn't look into it much 'til after they found out it was a game. Because, again, why would they (especially Rodney, play an RTS that ran at real time speed?

Because if you do, you can't advance your people at all. Two years? That's nothing.

Even then, it's not really cheating much. You've been playing a game for two years. You advance your people a few hundred years.

If that's cheating, then how much advancement are you allowed to give in two years? Two years of advancement? Wait 10 for anything significant? 100 years for anything of value?

Even if the game was played out in real time, it doesn't really mean that it's automatically cheating to advancement them a lot. After all, two years of game time in real life is a lot of time.

Would you want to play such a game and be restricted by how things are done in real time (even if it took them that long to do things)? Then you wouldn't be allow to advance them at all 'til, oh, say, 10 years had passed and even after 50 years you couldn't have done much.

And ecological scmecological. Please how me how they weren't ecologically ready for bikes, blimps and chemistry sets.

Alipeeps
December 30th, 2006, 07:34 AM
You have failed to asnwer my point though - the game works through the "Oracles" giving instructions to the villages through the consoles. The villagers carry out the instructions and the console/the satellites etc relays the progress of the work back to the game system in Atlantis. How can it run in anything *other* than real time?!!

And if the game is running in real time and Sheppard and McKay are aware of this (and they must be!) then yes, advancing your civilisation technologically by a few hundred years IS cheating!

I don't see how Sheppard and McKay could fail to be aware that the game was running in real time... and as for why they would be interested in playing such a game.. who knows? Maybe the interest is in the absolute minutae of the game, the fact that you can control every single aspect of life in the villages and grow and develop them in great detail - unlike "Earth-based" sim games where, at the end of the day, you can choose only from a limited set of options. McKay did mention when first explaining the game to Weir that the level of detail and options etc in the game was incredible.

FallenAngelII
December 30th, 2006, 07:45 AM
I did answer your point. Even if it was running in real time, I don't think it was cheating to advance your people for a few hundred years in two years of real time.

Because it was basically still an RTS; a game.

How slowly should one take it? Should one advance one's people in real time (meaning there won't be much progress for one's entire lifetime)? It's all relative. When you factor in that it's an RTS-game and you're playing it in real life, isn't two years quite a lot of time to advance your people for a couple of hundred years even if the game was running in real time?

Rodney's description of how the game worked came after they realized that it wasn't a game and that it was governed by satellites. We don't really know if they knew about the real time runtime before Lorne visited the planet.

It'll remain a plothole. Did they know it? If they did, why would they waste time playing it (especially Rodney who wouldn't have the patience for such a tedious game)?

Even if you can control every aspect of the "game", what's so much fun about a game where you have to:
1) Stop playing for set hours each day because your people are eating and sleeping or possibly celebrating holidays
2) Wait for months for each building to be finished
3) Wait for years for anything bigger than a house to be finished?

bluealien
December 30th, 2006, 08:10 AM
I've criticized Rodney. In fact, I've said it time and again that Rodney did things wrong in this episode as well. In the beginning, I saw it as John doing a lot more things wrong than Rodney but just recently I conceeded to having changed my mind. Now they're almost equally responsible.

When did I ever claim Rodney could do nothing wrong?

And I still don't think it's cheating. Ok, so what did Rodney do, exactly? He gave his people technology.

How long have they been playing? For over two years! If you play a game where you're either playing a Real-Time Strategy game (Starcraft/Warcraft/Civilization) or a Life Simulator (The Sims (2)), two years is a lot of time!


How is it cheating to give them technology in that much time (when you think it's a game). How long should Rodney have waited? Should he have played it at a real-time pace? As in, he should wait 50 years for each step?

On one hand you say that you blame Rodney as well but then you won't even admit that he cheated, so you are in effect back to saying that Rodney didnt do anything wrong and John is to blame. Both men played a game to win and Rodney went down the scientific route and John the military route. So its ok for Rodney to do everything he did to win - but not John. Why is that??

The intent of the game was to improve the lives of both peoples but Rodney cheated. He gave them technology way beyond what they should have had and advanced them much further than Johns people - so how does this not mean that he was just as much to blame as John was. He also increased his army to match Johns. When they found out that they were dealing with real people, John was the FIRST to try and get both sides together to negotiate but Rodneys leader refused to negotiate. She was far more hostile than Johns leader - why - because her people had advanced much further (and whose fault was that) and she was quite happy to have the upper hand. Because of the ADVANCED technology her people had they had the means to make weapons and even bombs which escalated everyone to a much more serious level. Again a result of Rodneys doing.

At the end of the day BOTH Rodney and John did their utmost to fix the problem they caused, and both share, though unintentionally the blame for the situation caused by their actions.

Luz
December 30th, 2006, 08:16 AM
Since it was all real, and the people were real, then Rodney didn't create Nola, he didn't make her blond. So, when he decided that the leader of his village would be a blond woman with that haircut, what did the people at the village do?.
Did they look for a blond woman who matched the description and made her the leader? (and made her cut her hair like that), or did they look for a woman who matched exactly the description (haircut and all).
Luckily Nola had the personality and the strength, she seemed to be fit for the job, but if she'd turn out to be lazy, or not all that smart?. Would she still have been made the leader because she was blond?.
I'm wondering because when someone is stupid or doesn't have the drive, so if she hadn't wanted to, or hadn't been capable of putting Rodney's plans into action, then what would have happened with the 'game'?, would they have realized that it wasn't real sooner?, like when what Rodney planned hadn't turned out the way he planned it.

Pegasus_SGA
December 30th, 2006, 10:33 AM
Ah forgive me to walk into your debate. ;)

Hehehe, feel free to join the madness :)



But I was under the impression that the time of the game was never known to Sheppard and Rodney untill they found out it was actually real. So like any game where you build a civilization you move forward much faster than RL development. You don't play Sim City for example for 100 years IRL before your city grows and more technology is installed in the city.


At the beginning of the ep, Rodney tells Elizabeth that they've been playing the game for two years, and the Nola confirmed that she had been receiveing instructions from her oracle for two years as well. I know a hell of a lot more about Sims gaming now than I ever did lol, and probably more than I wanted, but yes you're right about the different time scales for the normal VR games, but this one was definately done on real time. I think I put a quote up from Rodney that it was all done in real time and not Sims time, but I completely understand your point :)


I don't really care if Rodney and/or Sheppard "cheated" in the game at all, as two years with a game is a very long time. Development should have come quite far in this time. Now if they knew it was in real time? We don't know that, it's never mentioned when they explained the game, and a clock or calendar isn't visible on the screens. Perhaps it was in ancient, but do any of them read ancient?

Lol, I think i'm about at that stage now *g*, but yep it was definately done in real time :)

psychofilly
December 30th, 2006, 10:58 AM
It seems, FAII, that you are making some rather huge assumptions about Rodney, asking why he'd play such a tedius game in real time, when that is *exactly* what he did. And he *liked* it. Hee. :p

I think the people of Geldar and Hallona just moved really fast, because if you watched the little dots, they seemes to move way faster than realtime, but as it was stated, the game was played in real time. I can imagine all those people scurrying around in fast forward to get everything done. ;)

Alipeeps
December 30th, 2006, 11:21 AM
Since it was all real, and the people were real, then Rodney didn't create Nola, he didn't make her blond. So, when he decided that the leader of his village would be a blond woman with that haircut, what did the people at the village do?.
Did they look for a blond woman who matched the description and made her the leader? (and made her cut her hair like that), or did they look for a woman who matched exactly the description (haircut and all).
Luckily Nola had the personality and the strength, she seemed to be fit for the job, but if she'd turn out to be lazy, or not all that smart?. Would she still have been made the leader because she was blond?.
I'm wondering because when someone is stupid or doesn't have the drive, so if she hadn't wanted to, or hadn't been capable of putting Rodney's plans into action, then what would have happened with the 'game'?, would they have realized that it wasn't real sooner?, like when what Rodney planned hadn't turned out the way he planned it.

My understanding of it is that the people of the village carried out their Oracles wishes and commands.. and that when Rodney decided the women of the village/leader of the village should have short blond hair (he mentioned something to Weir about being able to choose preferred hairstyles for the people etc) they received the command on the console and altered their hairstyles to match the Oracle's request... I think when they first enter the village and the people surround them, I seem to recall many/most of the women having short blonde hair of some type. Maybe one of the scientific advances Rodney gave them was the formula for hydrogen peroxide! :lol:

FallenAngelII
December 30th, 2006, 12:09 PM
It seems, FAII, that you are making some rather huge assumptions about Rodney, asking why he'd play such a tedius game in real time, when that is *exactly* what he did. And he *liked* it. Hee. :p

I think the people of Geldar and Hallona just moved really fast, because if you watched the little dots, they seemes to move way faster than realtime, but as it was stated, the game was played in real time. I can imagine all those people scurrying around in fast forward to get everything done. ;)
It was never stated that the "game" ran in real time. It was stated that the information was relayed to them i nreal time. However, this was stated only after they found out it wasn't a game.

We can't conclusively say they knew it was running in real time (because the episode showed how big of idiots John and Rodney can be).

caty
December 30th, 2006, 12:26 PM
It was never stated that the "game" ran in real time. It was stated that the information was relayed to them i nreal time. However, this was stated only after they found out it wasn't a game.

We can't conclusively say they knew it was running in real time (because the episode showed how big of idiots John and Rodney can be).

I'm with the group that think that they had to know.. As Ali pointed out, they must have noticed how long it took their people to actually do whatever they tell them to.
Otherwise it must have been a fast forward life for them each time they were given an instruction...

FallenAngelII
December 30th, 2006, 12:30 PM
I'm with the group that think that they had to know.. As Ali pointed out, they must have noticed how long it took their people to actually do whatever they tell them to.
Otherwise it must have been a fast forward life for them each time they were given an instruction...
I'm of the group of:
A) They were idiots and didn't know
B) They were idiots and continued playing though they knew

How fun can a game be if it takes its characters months to build houses? And why didn't either of them once think it might not be a game?

Ancient equipment, simulation of life, running in real time. What, the Ancients had nothing better than to sit around playing games like these?

And the biggest plot hole of all: They kept having to preserve power, shutting down all systems they didn't need. Yet they decided that their little game was worth it?! Their RTS that runs in real time?!

In light of these new angles, I think that we should move past discussing what was cheating, what wasn't and whose fault what was. Let's go forward to discuss how stupid weren't John and Rodney to not even once think it might not be a game?

Atlantean_Fan
December 30th, 2006, 12:37 PM
You guys are forgeting that those two were playing "The Game" in their spare time which must be short with the life they have. Everytime they seated in front of those consoles in Atlantis they did it to relax from a or many stressfull days in a roll. Perhaps they didn't care about how fast it was going, it was just an enjoyment for them. Which also explains why, IMHO, Rodney cheated, because they probably spent very little time in front of those consoles because they had gazillion other RL things to do, their jobs you know, and it's not just the missions, there is what they do when they're in the city too, so very little time, so everytime they sat down in the game room, Rodney passed loads of information to the Geldars and that's where the cheating comes from, IMHO. The power conservation plot hole is a tough one to explain though......

caty
December 30th, 2006, 12:39 PM
I'm of the group of:
A) They were idiots and didn't know
B) They were idiots and continued playing though they knew

How fun can a game be if it takes its characters months to build houses? And why didn't either of them once think it might not be a game?

Ancient equipment, simulation of life, running in real time. What, the Ancients had nothing better than to sit around playing games like these?

And the biggest plot hole of all: They kept having to preserve power, shutting down all systems they didn't need. Yet they decided that their little game was worth it?! Their RTS that runs in real time?!

In light of these new angles, I think that we should move past discussing what was cheating, what wasn't and whose fault what was. Let's go forward to discuss how stupid weren't John and Rodney to not even once think it might not be a game?

Why does a game in real time sound so wrong to you? I am sure there are people out there who would like a game like that. It's much more realistic and - let's face it - the Ancients were around forever, so why wouldn't they let a game run in real time? See what they can make of a civilization in real time?
You act like the only thing they'd need to do in a real time game is building houses... I think their job is more like that of a "president" (I'm lacking a better word), they probably have to take care of more than advancement..

I don't think John and Rodney were stupid because they didn't realize that it was more than a game. As mentioned, the Ancients got very old and would have good reason to create a game that runs in real time..
If it weren't, it'd just take a tiny fraction out of their very long life to play it...

Pegasus_SGA
December 30th, 2006, 12:53 PM
I checked a little piece of the episode,,,and the thing is that over two years time Rodney advanced them a lot...

When they went to that planet the woman told them they had contact with the oracle thousands of years ago but it suddenly stopped.. and then she says he returned TWO years ago....

how in the world could the people do all those things in the space of two years since she clearly states the oracle started communicating two years ago after leaving them thousands of years ago... unless they just have to snap their fingers in the village and things will be done...

Very good points, all of them. And from what we do know, the civilisation stopped developing themselves because they weren't in contact with the oracle until 2 years ago. And to go over two hundred years in two years is a very rapid growth on a planet.


I never said "The game" played faster in real time. I say all games that are like that play faster in real time. Because it would be extremely boring to play a game that played out in real time.

You implied that it went faster, because you compared it to the Sims game, and you made a point of stating that. I agree it could be very boring if you were playing it day in, and day out, but they said they only played it occasionally, not all the time. Plus with so much detail to work out, such as construction, building houses, roads, changing your hair colour :) does take time. And the real time results were being monitored, so why would you get bored when your developing a whole civilisation. As Rodney said, they had to make laws, policies, trading etc, and OMG do you know how long it takes to make legislation, lol. That in itself can take years *g*.



Just because Rodney figured out just how the satellites and consoles worked after finding out it wasn't a game doesn't mean he knew it before finding out. Because, really, why the heck would they play an RTS in real time speed?


You're right Rodney and Sheppard didn't know it wasn't a game until Lorne found Rodney's face on the flag :) As for the playing on RTS in real time speed, your thinking of games in our world, this is ancient gaming which from what was said in the ep, and I think Alipeeps mentioned it to, it was an incredible sophisticated game. One that you could change every detail on it, so that's probably why they didn't get bored.

I
personally believe they didn't look into it much 'til after they found out it was a game. Because, again, why would they (especially Rodney, play an RTS that ran at real time speed?

No, you're probably right, why would they look into it when they were obviously having too much fun. I mean even Zelenka said that there were additional levels that McKay didn't even know about, so you're right they were probably just caught up in the moment.



Because if you do, you can't advance your people at all. Two years? That's nothing.


Nobody has said that you couldn't enhance your people, the majority discussing this are saying its prudent to advance your people according to their level of development. Remember Medieval to Renaissance is a huge step for a country that's not been advancing themselves for god knows how many years, and it was at least several generations of non development. Which roughly equates to at least 100 years of non development. To go from nothing to everything in one leap is not beneficial for any country.



Even then, it's not really cheating much. You've been playing a game for two years. You advance your people a few hundred years.

If that's cheating, then how much advancement are you allowed to give in two years? Two years of advancement? Wait 10 for anything significant? 100 years for anything of value?


People are providing you with their reasons of why they believe it was cheating, and you're still not listening to their sides. We know that you see nothing wring with Rodney advancing his people several years, and so by that measure I'm assuming you would have no problem doing that (and i'm not talking about Sims games) because this is completely different. Say for example you were in Pegasus, and that you were gaming. At your fingertips you had everything at your disposal and you could build a civilisation from scratch, but you had to wait for the results of said action to be uploaded to your computor. Would your first priorites be to give them information regarding weapons and explosives? Or would you look at other areas, such as food distribution, opening trade negotiations, Setting up medical facilities etc? I've said lets agree to disagree on this point. What do you say?


Even if the game was played out in real time

Which it was..............


it doesn't really mean that it's automatically cheating to advancement them a lot. After all, two years of game time in real life is a lot of time.

You need to stop thinking of this as a Sims game, because it isn't. Your arguments are based on knowledge from playing or being aware of VR Games, yes? Therefore you believe that the same should/would apply to the ancients game room, when it doesn't. Data of the Geldar and Hallowans progress was reported in real time...therefore sent back to Atlantis when they had made their repairs, installed electricity, roads etc...



Would you want to play such a game and be restricted by how things are done in real time (even if it took them that long to do things)? Then you wouldn't be allow to advance them at all 'til, oh, say, 10 years had passed and even after 50 years you couldn't have done much.

And ecological scmecological. Please how me how they weren't ecologically ready for bikes, blimps and chemistry sets.

Personally it would be interesting. If I was playing on my own, i'd probably cheat like mad *g* but then that's me. If I was playing against someone else, then with EVERY game there are rules, and I wouldn't cheat as much as Rodney did. If I knew the other person was cheating then i'd probaly cheat to, and then we'd both be as bad as each other.



Rodney's description of how the game worked came after they realized that it wasn't a game and that it was governed by satellites. We don't really know if they knew about the real time runtime before Lorne visited the planet.

Yes we do, because Nola told us it was 2 years.



It'll remain a plothole. Did they know it? If they did, why would they waste time playing it (especially Rodney who wouldn't have the patience for such a tedious game)?


Why would you say Rodney wouldn't have the patience? When he's intersted in something he goes all out. When its something like this, that he can sink his teeth into, then he would have the patience. This is the power to control a whole world, game or no game. And if you could change every little detail in that world, why would you get bored. I would've thought it would be right up his street.



Even if you can control every aspect of the "game", what's so much fun about a game where you have to:
1) Stop playing for set hours each day because your people are eating and sleeping or possibly celebrating holidays
2) Wait for months for each building to be finished
3) Wait for years for anything bigger than a house to be finished?
[/QUOTE]

The fun of it is, that it's a VR game, which apparently is extreemly addidctive like all games regardless of how long it takes. Your a gaming man aren't you? So if it takes you several weeks to finish off a certain level, are you going to quit and move onto something else because you're frustrated at how long its taking you? And maybe something like that makes it feel more real? Who knows.


Both men played a game to win and Rodney went down the scientific route and John the military route. So its ok for Rodney to do everything he did to win - but not John. Why is that??

Good point.


He also increased his army to match Johns. When they found out that they were dealing with real people, John was the FIRST to try and get both sides together to negotiate but Rodneys leader refused to negotiate. She was far more hostile than Johns leader - why - because her people had advanced much further (and whose fault was that) and she was quite happy to have the upper hand. Because of the ADVANCED technology her people had they had the means to make weapons and even bombs which escalated everyone to a much more serious level. Again a result of Rodneys doing.

I agree with you 100%.



[quote=Luz;6144779]Since it was all real, and the people were real, then Rodney didn't create Nola, he didn't make her blond. So, when he decided that the leader of his village would be a blond woman with that haircut, what did the people at the village do?.
Did they look for a blond woman who matched the description and made her the leader? (and made her cut her hair like that), or did they look for a woman who matched exactly the description (haircut and all).
Luckily Nola had the personality and the strength, she seemed to be fit for the job, but if she'd turn out to be lazy, or not all that smart?. Would she still have been made the leader because she was blond?.


That's a very good point. it wouold be interseting to know what their selection process with regards to her, especially if the data stream sent to Geldar said the leader had to be blonde. Runs to check on the ep to see what the image said :) It says when they are choosing styles "Action: influence style" lol, so maybe they chose her because rodney input Influence leader, lol.





It seems, FAII, that you are making some rather huge assumptions about Rodney, asking why he'd play such a tedius game in real time, when that is *exactly* what he did. And he *liked* it. Hee. :p


ROFL and he really did, he had the hugest smile on his face, lol :)


My understanding of it is that the people of the village carried out their Oracles wishes and commands.. and that when Rodney decided the women of the village/leader of the village should have short blond hair (he mentioned something to Weir about being able to choose preferred hairstyles for the people etc) they received the command on the console and altered their hairstyles to match the Oracle's request... I think when they first enter the village and the people surround them, I seem to recall many/most of the women having short blonde hair of some type. Maybe one of the scientific advances Rodney gave them was the formula for hydrogen peroxide! :lol:
Absolutely. I just rewatched that bit after you said it, and there are tons of bleached blonde women on there, great pick up.

ROFL that's hilarious :)

FallenAngelII
December 30th, 2006, 01:15 PM
Would your first priorites be to give them information regarding weapons and explosives? Or would you look at other areas, such as food distribution, opening trade negotiations, Setting up medical facilities etc? I've said lets agree to disagree on this point. What do you say?
Who says Rodney ignored all of those things? The only thing we know is that he gave John a really bad trade offer, which was refused. So trading was off.

Who says he didn't make sure they had good food distribution and medical facilities? They seemed to be of good health, all of them.

And Rodney didn't give them weapons. He gave them bicycles, blimps and some explosive technology. And you think these are the only things he gave them? Just because they were the only things we heard about?

Then John must not have done anything in these past two years besides doubling the size of his army, turn down the insultive offer and send Rodney insultive foods in return.

IMO, no one would ever want to play an RTS that played in real life. And why are you calling it VR? There's nothing VR about it. It's a big board with blimps and text on it.

With your logic, you'd have to wait years and years between each advancement. The advancement from Medieval to Renaissance level would take more than an entire lifetime.

I personally wouldn't go near a game that only ran in real time. But if I did play it, I could easily see myself advancing my society at the speed Rodney did.

psychofilly
December 30th, 2006, 01:22 PM
It was never stated that the "game" ran in real time. It was stated that the information was relayed to them i nreal time. However, this was stated only after they found out it wasn't a game.

We can't conclusively say they knew it was running in real time (because the episode showed how big of idiots John and Rodney can be).

Ah, but during the episode, Rodney told Nola that he had ordered to build them a well, and then he pulled up the board, and it showed a well under construction.

See:


McKAY: So this is Geldar, and this is Hallona. Look, two weeks ago I instructed you to start digging a well for the new settlement on the eastern slope and look here... [types into the computer] ...There, see? [The screen zooms on the construction on the well.] Construction has already begun.

NOLA: Yes, I have the order myself. Our lives are just a game.

Real time or darn close to it. He ordered the construction, and it was underway, but not completed in the two weeks since he ordered it. It sounds like the game was incredibly complex, and since they only played it in their spare time, they had the luxury of ordering projects and then letting them run while they were away. Plus the amount of detail they commanded alone could have kept them pretty busy.


ETA: That you feel playing a sims/civilization like game in real time would be boring and tedious is completely irrelevant. It's not about what you like. It's about what John and Rodney enjoyed. The game played in real time, and they enjoyed the challenge and spending time together playing it. Period. What you think in this case has little bearing, because we were clearly shown that the game was real time and that it was still addictive and fun. (both John and Rodney AND Lorne and Zelenka got drawn into it.)

caty
December 30th, 2006, 01:27 PM
Who says Rodney ignored all of those things? The only thing we know is that he gave John a really bad trade offer, which was refused. So trading was off.

Who says he didn't make sure they had good food distribution and medical facilities? They seemed to be of good health, all of them.

And Rodney didn't give them weapons. He gave them bicycles, blimps and some explosive technology. And you think these are the only things he gave them? Just because they were the only things we heard about?

Then John must not have done anything in these past two years besides doubling the size of his army, turn down the insultive offer and send Rodney insultive foods in return.

IMO, no one would ever want to play an RTS that played in real life. And why are you calling it VR? There's nothing VR about it. It's a big board with blimps and text on it.

With your logic, you'd have to wait years and years between each advancement. The advancement from Medieval to Renaissance level would take more than an entire lifetime.

I personally wouldn't go near a game that only ran in real time. But if I did play it, I could easily see myself advancing my society at the speed Rodney did.

John and Rodney apparently did...

Are you not gonna answer my post?

FallenAngelII
December 30th, 2006, 01:40 PM
Why does a game in real time sound so wrong to you? I am sure there are people out there who would like a game like that. It's much more realistic and - let's face it - the Ancients were around forever, so why wouldn't they let a game run in real time? See what they can make of a civilization in real time?
You act like the only thing they'd need to do in a real time game is building houses... I think their job is more like that of a "president" (I'm lacking a better word), they probably have to take care of more than advancement..

I don't think John and Rodney were stupid because they didn't realize that it was more than a game. As mentioned, the Ancients got very old and would have good reason to create a game that runs in real time..
If it weren't, it'd just take a tiny fraction out of their very long life to play it...
Nobody would play an RTS that will only play in real time. For one thing, I doubt the days and nights on all planets in Pegasus correspond to each other. Sometimes, you'd want to play but not be able to because your inhabitants were sleeping (and they were morons for not realizing that this was significant).

And there must've been times where the people didn't do exactly as told or did things wrong. Did they assume these were built-in game machenisms and A.I's as well?

Sure, some people would want a game like that. But only if there was a little "Fast Forward" feature where you could choose the running speed of the game for certain portions like during the night or during times where there isn't much to do except lean back and watch everything unfold.

You'd think they'd become suspicious of a game without a Pause-function where everything ran in real time and where you never directly controlled everything. You told your people what to do and then they did it... in real time.

And, hey, power consumption!

caty
December 30th, 2006, 01:51 PM
Nobody would play an RTS that will only play in real time. For one thing, I doubt the days and nights on all planets in Pegasus correspond to each other. Sometimes, you'd want to play but not be able to because your inhabitants were sleeping (and they were morons for not realizing that this was significant).

And there must've been times where the people didn't do exactly as told or did things wrong. Did they assume these were built-in game machenisms and A.I's as well?

Sure, some people would want a game like that. But only if there was a little "Fast Forward" feature where you could choose the running speed of the game for certain portions like during the night or during times where there isn't much to do except lean back and watch everything unfold.

You'd think they'd become suspicious of a game without a Pause-function where everything ran in real time and where you never directly controlled everything. You told your people what to do and then they did it... in real time.

And, hey, power consumption!

In all honesty, you still haven't adressed my most important point about the Ancients creating this game and as a race that lives for thousands of years, why should Rodney and John think it was odd or even be considered "stupid" or "morons" (which you have called them numerous times) that they invented a game that runs in real time?
Realistically, they would not become suspicious and they would certainly NOT be stupid morons!!!!

psychofilly
December 30th, 2006, 01:52 PM
Nobody would play an RTS that will only play in real time. For one thing, I doubt the days and nights on all planets in Pegasus correspond to each other. Sometimes, you'd want to play but not be able to because your inhabitants were sleeping (and they were morons for not realizing that this was significant).

It's an assumption, but I'm sure the planetary day of whatever planet you were world building on would be a part of the parameter.


And there must've been times where the people didn't do exactly as told or did things wrong. Did they assume these were built-in game machenisms and A.I's as well?

Apparently things they did outside of the parameters, did not show up until something was completed, and this was a game built by people that built the stargates and Atlantis. Wouldn't the assumption of sophisticated game AI's be a given?


McKAY: What? A bomb? You actually built a bomb?!

NOLA: I told you. We'd always be several steps ahead of Baden.

McKAY: How come I didn't know about this?

NOLA: We have yet to test it, so it appears to not exist.


Sure, some people would want a game like that. But only if there was a little "Fast Forward" feature where you could choose the running speed of the game for certain portions like during the night or during times where there isn't much to do except lean back and watch everything unfold.

Again, you are making assumptions based on you and your experience. You can't know that about everyone else.


You'd think they'd become suspicious of a game without a Pause-function where everything ran in real time and where you never directly controlled everything. You told your people what to do and then they did it... in real time.

But they were playing a game already set up by the ancients and within their parameters. It sounded like, if you effed up, you could destroy your civilization. The fact that you can't take it back just up the stakes.


And, hey, power consumption!

Apparently not so much. Besides, all they were doing was sending and recieving info and powering their own game consoles. The consoles on the planets looked self sufficient.

FallenAngelII
December 30th, 2006, 01:56 PM
In all honesty, you still haven't adressed my most important point about the Ancients creating this game and as a race that lives for thousands of years, why should Rodney and John think it was odd or even be considered "stupid" or "morons" (which you have called them numerous times) that they invented a game that runs in real time?
Realistically, they would not become suspicious and they would certainly NOT be stupid morons!!!!
Where are you getting this random piee of information from? We have no idea how long the Ancient lifespan is. It's presumable longer than that of us humans.

The Ancients were fighting the Wraith. And they thought it'd be nifty with a game that only runs in Real Time? A game that's so sophisticated it could be more than a game? And they never bothered to ask the game if it was a game or not?

These were the Ancients, after all. They did everything big.

BTW, concerning energy conservation: It doesn't matter if it wasn't draining a lot of power. They were shutting down everything that wasn't essential. The game was not essential.

Two years of playing might equal an hour or two of the shield's survival against the combined fire of three hives.

caty
December 30th, 2006, 02:23 PM
Where are you getting this random piee of information from? We have no idea how long the Ancient lifespan is. It's presumable longer than that of us humans.

The Ancients were fighting the Wraith. And they thought it'd be nifty with a game that only runs in Real Time? A game that's so sophisticated it could be more than a game? And they never bothered to ask the game if it was a game or not?

These were the Ancients, after all. They did everything big.

I never said that the Ancients didn't know that it wasn't a game... Of course, they did, they created it!
Why would they not create a game like that... You are saxing because they were in war with the Wraith.. Well, I say that the "game" is much older than the war with the Wraith..

Come on... Random piece of information?? The Ancients are the most advanced species we know of and if you look at the life expectancy of humans (it was about 28 years in Classical Rome, 37 at the end of the 19th century and look at what it is now...), you can get an idea of where the Ancients would be with their advanced medical knowledge that is so far beyond us and their healing powers... Just look at how old the Wraith get with their healing powers...

I think we can safely say that the Ancients live a lot longer than humans do, but this takes the thread too much off topic and I am very aware that you will accept nothing I say according to this topic, because that would invalidate your labeling John and Rodney as stupid morons ;)

psychofilly
December 30th, 2006, 02:30 PM
Where are you getting this random piee of information from? We have no idea how long the Ancient lifespan is. It's presumable longer than that of us humans.

And that sort of answers the question doesn't it? If they had longer life spans they could afford to world build over the long haul. They also seem thetype that could and would do things that take generations to complete.



The Ancients were fighting the Wraith. And they thought it'd be nifty with a game that only runs in Real Time? A game that's so sophisticated it could be more than a game? And they never bothered to ask the game if it was a game or not?

They were fighting the Wraith but they still built time machines and ascension machines and ran all kinds of experiments big and small in all sorts of scientific fields. Based on the evidence that Rodney had, he had no way of knowing that there were real people on the other end. Even if it wasn't originally intended to be a "game", they still had no idea that someone was on the other end. For all they knew it was as Zelenka had said, a theoretical world building model to extrapolate how their influence might affect primitive societies. No one else noticed that they were transmitting/recieving data on their sensors. So how would they have known?


These were the Ancients, after all. They did everything big.

Yes they did.


BTW, concerning energy conservation: It doesn't matter if it wasn't draining a lot of power. They were shutting down everything that wasn't essential. The game was not essential.

Two years of playing might equal an hour or two of the shield's survival against the combined fire of three hives.

You may have a point with this. But Rodney and john both felt pretty comfortable running it despite the power usage. They aren't the only ones who monitor that sort of thing, so it could not have been that big of a deal.

FallenAngelII
December 30th, 2006, 02:31 PM
I never said that the Ancients didn't know that it wasn't a game... Of course, they did, they created it!
Why would they not create a game like that... You are saxing because they were in war with the Wraith.. Well, I say that the "game" is much older than the war with the Wraith..
I was talking about Rodney's and John's mindsets. Why would they think the Ancients, who were busy fighting the Wraith, would create an RTS that runs in Real Time?!


Come on... Random piece of information?? The Ancients are the most advanced species we know of and if you look at the life expectancy of humans (it was about 28 years in Classical Rome, 37 at the end of the 19th century and look at what it is now...), you can get an idea of where the Ancients would be with their advanced medical knowledge that is so far beyond us and their healing powers... Just look at how old the Wraith get with their healing powers...
1) The life expectancies of classical rome and the 19th century were not due to physiological limits but due to medicinal deficiency. People died of smallpox and scarlet fever and whatnot.
2) How the hell does the Ancients being advanced automatically mean they lived for thousands of years?! We have no idea how long the Ancient life span is. Presenting random assumptions as fact does not make it fact!
3) The Wraith do not live for thousands of years because of "their healing powers". They live for thousands of years because of their special ability to feed off whatever they feed off. They happen to also be able to use it to heal themselves. They don't heal their own aging. And hey, they're a completely different species.


I think we can safely say that the Ancients live a lot longer than humans do, but this takes the thread too much off topic and I am very aware that you will accept nothing I say according to this topic, because that would invalidate your labeling John and Rodney as stupid morons ;)
A lot longer = 3 times? 10 times? Why are you automatically assuming they lived for tens of times we humans do?

We don't die from disease that often anymore. The most common causes of death nowadays (in countries that aren't the United States) are natural; such as the body not being to keep us alive because it's gotten too old to sustain us. Our organs fail and whatever.

The Ancients most probably also got to a stage where their bodies failed and shut down, which ultimately lead to death. How long it takes for this to occur, we have no idea. We assume they lived longer than we do.

This is a very valid assumption. We, however, have no clue how to calculate just how long they lived.

For one thing, the Ancients on board of the Aurora aged pretty much at the same speed as old!Weir did back in Atlantis. People fanwanked the solution that those statis pods must be inferior to those of Atlantis (why they would be is beyond me. What, they were too lazy to build equally good stasis pods?).

For all we know, their life expectancy was 150 years.

psychofilly: Apparentely you can type in whatever commands you want and have it happen. Baten used John's console to issue an order to attack the mine. He never once used any mouse-ish thing, he just typed it in... and it only took a few seconds.

The command probably went like this: "Attack the enemy mine located in X-Y location. Try not to do any unnecessary fighting".

It doesn't take a genius to figure out that the game might not be a game and test it by asking it questions like "Is this a game or is it real?" and if the other side can't respond ask it to "Move all of the inhabitants to X-location if this is a game. If it's not, move them to Y-location" or something like that.

These were, after all, the Ancients. You should always second-guess your first impression of Ancient machines.

Pegasus_SGA
December 30th, 2006, 02:38 PM
Who says Rodney ignored all of those things? The only thing we know is that he gave John a really bad trade offer, which was refused. So trading was off.

I didn't say he ignored those things at all, I said there are more important things than giving them the knowledge to make weapons. Trading should never be off because of one disagreement and they should have perservered. Rarely will you get two sides who don't agree on something to just suddenly agree straight away. It takes time to develop trust and opena nd honest negotiations from both sides. I mean look at us still arguing the same points.


Who says he didn't make sure they had good food distribution and medical facilities? They seemed to be of good health, all of them.

Not me, I didn't say that. I said there should have been other things Rodney could have concentrated on before giving them the information on weapons manufacturing. We don't know that they were or they weren't, as we only saw a handful of people. Looks can be deceiving.



And Rodney didn't give them weapons. He gave them bicycles, blimps and some explosive technology. And you think these are the only things he gave them? Just because they were the only things we heard about?


Again, no he didn't give them weapons he provided them with instructions on high temperatures and energetic materials technology, whith which they used to make bombs. And I don't for one b=minute believe that that was all he gave them. I'm sure there was a tonne of stuff he gave them 200 year advancement is a lot of technology.



Then John must not have done anything in these past two years besides doubling the size of his army, turn down the insultive offer and send Rodney insultive foods in return.


The problem is, we don't know what John did to his civilisation, because the ep was one sided and focused on what McKay did wrong not what Sheppard did wrong, i'm sure he made mistakes, who wouldn't if you were playing a game with that level of detail. Again we don't really know what Sheppard did to his world apart from the things you mentioned, because it was focused on rodney, and the errors they made collective and unilatteraly (McKay). if they had shown Sheppards errors, we probably wouldn't be having this debate.



IMO, no one would ever want to play an RTS that played in real life. And why are you calling it VR? There's nothing VR about it. It's a big board with blimps and text on it.

With your logic, you'd have to wait years and years between each advancement. The advancement from Medieval to Renaissance level would take more than an entire lifetime.

I personally wouldn't go near a game that only ran in real time. But if I did play it, I could easily see myself advancing my society at the speed Rodney did.

You're putting yourself into their position, again! It's not you who was involved with the game, it was Rodney and Sheppard, and they enjoyed themselves...immensley.

That was my bad calling it VR, sorry about that. Slip of the abbreviation. What's a big board with blimps and text on? Do you mean the console?

Mmm with my logic i'd probably do a fab job of it :) The difference between me and you is that your logic comes from your emotions (from what I have been able to ascertain), and mine comes from experience and fact. When you get frustrated, you personally attack someone because of their preferences of who they may or may not like on the show. It is irrelevant if a persons loves or hates a character and it should never get in the way of debating an episode, or any other argument (unless the thread is about 'My character is better than your character because...) And it can lead to bad feelings adn frustrations from other posters. Several times we've debated certain things together, and I for one have really enjoyed debating with you over this, but when you reply to some of my posts there is always an underlying tone. And that's bad debating, because once you get personal you lose the argument.

I have had a lot of experience dealing with countries that have had to overcome hardship, so when I discuss various things with you regarding sociology and ecology etc, it's because i've been there and done that and bought the T-shirt so i'm speaking from what I know. Just as you're speaking from what you know, ie your knowledge of gaming. I knew diddly squat about that until you told me. So when you talk about being bored with 'the game' so to speak your going off your own thoughts and feelings and not what Rodney and John's thoughts and feelings are towards the game. it's a natural thing when you care about a particular character. But, don't you think if they were bored they would give up. The fact that they've been playing it this long shows a lot about their character. I'm sure I asked you this before, and you may have responded by the time I post this, lol, but would you give up a game you'd been playing for weeks because it got too long or would you persevere?

Lol, about advancing your society. I said you would in my previous post. because that's you, that's your nature, and Rodney is the same way.


Real time or darn close to it. He ordered the construction, and it was underway, but not completed in the two weeks since he ordered it. It sounds like the game was incredibly complex, and since they only played it in their spare time, they had the luxury of ordering projects and then letting them run while they were away. Plus the amount of detail they commanded alone could have kept them pretty busy.

Absolutely which proves the point that it is in real time, once more. I agree with you 100% on this, plus they had missions to go to, they had to protect the city upmteen times, and as one of them said they played it now and again, not every day.



ETA: That you feel playing a sims/civilization like game in real time would be boring and tedious is completely irrelevant. It's not about what you like. It's about what John and Rodney enjoyed. The game played in real time, and they enjoyed the challenge and spending time together playing it. Period. What you think in this case has little bearing, because we were clearly shown that the game was real time and that it was still addictive and fun. (both John and Rodney AND Lorne and Zelenka got drawn into it.)

i really must get into this gaming stuff, lol. Ooooh think of the damage I could do to a whole country, lol. :)


Nobody would play an RTS that will only play in real time. For one thing, I doubt the days and nights on all planets in Pegasus correspond to each other. Sometimes, you'd want to play but not be able to because your inhabitants were sleeping (and they were morons for not realizing that this was significant).

But you'd always be able to play, that's the point everyone (well, nearly) is trying to make to you, it's not a SIM's game, its an extreemly advanced piece of technology, that is so detailed you could play it for centuries and still get only to the medieval period (as the ancients did) It is so much so that even McKay didn't realise that there were extra levels and stuff and the mans a genius, lol.



And there must've been times where the people didn't do exactly as told or did things wrong. Did they assume these were built-in game machenisms and A.I's as well?


I'm sure there were a lot of times when they didn't have a clue how to do stuff, and may have needed clearer instructions, which would then have taken longer... I'm not sure what you meant by the last point, can you clarify, please.



You'd think they'd become suspicious of a game without a Pause-function where everything ran in real time and where you never directly controlled everything. You told your people what to do and then they did it... in real time.

And, hey, power consumption!

I agree they're both smart enough to realise when something is not as it seems, and they should have noticed, but maybe they were just caught up in the heat of it all. Although they didn't control it physically, they had all that power at their fingertips and were fully aware that their tasks and instructions were being adhered to. why would you want a pause button. You'd just upload your commands and let your people do the work that you instructed, not unlike a King/Queen, president/prime minister...however you want to define their role.

Lol, yeah I wonder how much power it did consume, and when they had to conserve power at times, the information must have been stored in a buffer or something otherwise they'd have to go back to the start again, lol. Maybe that's what happened, they had to press the reset button, lol. *Ahem, no double meaning intended* ;)

psychofilly
December 30th, 2006, 02:39 PM
psychofilly: Apparentely you can type in whatever commands you want and have it happen. Baten used John's console to issue an order to attack the mine. He never once used any mouse-ish thing, he just typed it in... and it only took a few seconds.

The command probably went like this: "Attack the enemy mine located in X-Y location. Try not to do any unnecessary fighting".

It doesn't take a genius to figure out that the game might not be a game and test it by asking it questions like "Is this a game or is it real?" and if the other side can't respond ask it to "Move all of the inhabitants to X-location if this is a game. If it's not, move them to Y-location" or something like that.

These were, after all, the Ancients. You should always second-guess your first impression of Ancient machines.


The quickness of the attack is irrelevant, and probably just for time. We already know the game was real time. For the rest, straws... grasping.

I think you are just arguing to argue.

caty
December 30th, 2006, 02:43 PM
I was talking about Rodney's and John's mindsets. Why would they think the Ancients, who were busy fighting the Wraith, would create an RTS that runs in Real Time?!
Go back and read my post... The game could have been created long before they were "busy fighting the Wraith", so it's just to assume that...



1) The life expectancies of classical rome and the 19th century were not due to physiological limits but due to medicinal deficiency. People died of smallpox and scarlet fever and whatnot.
2) How the hell does the Ancients being advanced automatically mean they lived for thousands of years?! We have no idea how long the Ancient life span is. Presenting random assumptions as fact does not make it fact!
3) The Wraith do not live for thousands of years because of "their healing powers". They live for thousands of years because of their special ability to feed off whatever they feed off. They happen to also be able to use it to heal themselves. They don't heal their own aging. And hey, they're a completely different species.

Go back and read my post!
I didn't say that each Ancient lived for thousands of years, I said that they are a race that lived for thousands of years!!! It is not random assumptions!
Psychofilly was so nice to point it out to you: they seem like the type of race that lets something run over generations.

I am refuseing to discuss the whole "how long does an Ancient live"- thing further with you, that'll take us nowhere!

BTW: Thanks for pointing out that the Wraith were a different species, I was completely unaware :eek:





A lot longer = 3 times? 10 times? Why are you automatically assuming they lived for tens of times we humans do?

We don't die from disease that often anymore. The most common causes of death nowadays (in countries that aren't the United States) are natural; such as the body not being to keep us alive because it's gotten too old to sustain us. Our organs fail and whatever.

The Ancients most probably also got to a stage where their bodies failed and shut down, which ultimately lead to death. How long it takes for this to occur, we have no idea. We assume they lived longer than we do.

This is a very valid assumption. We, however, have no clue how to calculate just how long they lived.

For one thing, the Ancients on board of the Aurora aged pretty much at the same speed as old!Weir did back in Atlantis. People fanwanked the solution that those statis pods must be inferior to those of Atlantis (why they would be is beyond me. What, they were too lazy to build equally good stasis pods?).

For all we know, their life expectancy was 150 years.

Go back and read my post!

The Ancients as a race, not the single Ancient! It makes no sense to reply to the rest of your post, cause you are assuming that I am assuming something that I don't!

Alipeeps
December 30th, 2006, 02:49 PM
You guys are forgeting that those two were playing "The Game" in their spare time which must be short with the life they have. Everytime they seated in front of those consoles in Atlantis they did it to relax from a or many stressfull days in a roll. Perhaps they didn't care about how fast it was going, it was just an enjoyment for them. Which also explains why, IMHO, Rodney cheated, because they probably spent very little time in front of those consoles because they had gazillion other RL things to do, their jobs you know, and it's not just the missions, there is what they do when they're in the city too, so very little time, so everytime they sat down in the game room, Rodney passed loads of information to the Geldars and that's where the cheating comes from, IMHO. The power conservation plot hole is a tough one to explain though......

Precisely. They weren't playing for two solid years - they were playing now and then, when they had some free time, over the course of two years.


Why does a game in real time sound so wrong to you? I am sure there are people out there who would like a game like that. It's much more realistic and - let's face it - the Ancients were around forever, so why wouldn't they let a game run in real time? See what they can make of a civilization in real time?
You act like the only thing they'd need to do in a real time game is building houses... I think their job is more like that of a "president" (I'm lacking a better word), they probably have to take care of more than advancement..

I don't think John and Rodney were stupid because they didn't realize that it was more than a game. As mentioned, the Ancients got very old and would have good reason to create a game that runs in real time..
If it weren't, it'd just take a tiny fraction out of their very long life to play it...

Indeed. I myself can see the attraction of such a game. It's not about a short-term win or achieving set objectives or whatever like in the games we know.. it's a detailed, involved, long-term project where you get to essentially create and mold a society. It could be fascinating. Certainly Rodney and John found it so.. and so did Zelenka and Lorne later on..

And why should they have ever assumed it was not a game? I see no reason why the Ancients wouldn't create such a game - what possible reason would Sheppard and McKay have had to think - "Hey, maybe all this stuff is actually happening for real on a planet somewhere!"?!!



Why would you say Rodney wouldn't have the patience? When he's intersted in something he goes all out. When its something like this, that he can sink his teeth into, then he would have the patience. This is the power to control a whole world, game or no game. And if you could change every little detail in that world, why would you get bored. I would've thought it would be right up his street.


Or maybe he didn't have the patience required.. and that's why he cheated and advanced his people more rapidly than he should have? ;)




IMO, no one would ever want to play an RTS that played in real life. And why are you calling it VR? There's nothing VR about it. It's a big board with blimps and text on it.

With your logic, you'd have to wait years and years between each advancement. The advancement from Medieval to Renaissance level would take more than an entire lifetime.

I personally wouldn't go near a game that only ran in real time. But if I did play it, I could easily see myself advancing my society at the speed Rodney did.

And that's your opinion. Obviosuly McKay and Sheppard don't share your opinion because they did play the game and play it for over 2 years. Just because you wouldn't want to play such a game, doesn't mean no-one else should/would want to either.



Real time or darn close to it. He ordered the construction, and it was underway, but not completed in the two weeks since he ordered it. It sounds like the game was incredibly complex, and since they only played it in their spare time, they had the luxury of ordering projects and then letting them run while they were away. Plus the amount of detail they commanded alone could have kept them pretty busy.


ETA: That you feel playing a sims/civilization like game in real time would be boring and tedious is completely irrelevant. It's not about what you like. It's about what John and Rodney enjoyed. The game played in real time, and they enjoyed the challenge and spending time together playing it. Period. What you think in this case has little bearing, because we were clearly shown that the game was real time and that it was still addictive and fun. (both John and Rodney AND Lorne and Zelenka got drawn into it.)

Agree 100%


Nobody would play an RTS that will only play in real time.

How can you possibly know that? You state that as fact. It isn't fact. It's your opinion. And an opinion that the facts of events in the episode shows is not shared by Sheppard and McKay.


In all honesty, you still haven't adressed my most important point about the Ancients creating this game and as a race that lives for thousands of years, why should Rodney and John think it was odd or even be considered "stupid" or "morons" (which you have called them numerous times) that they invented a game that runs in real time?
Realistically, they would not become suspicious and they would certainly NOT be stupid morons!!!!

Quite. The Ancients were an advanced, complex, long-lives race - and why on earth would Sheppard and McKay question the fact that the Ancients had created this game - and then make the logical leap that it must in fact not be a game but be real?



The Ancients were fighting the Wraith. And they thought it'd be nifty with a game that only runs in Real Time? A game that's so sophisticated it could be more than a game? And they never bothered to ask the game if it was a game or not?

They were fighting the Wraith for the last 100 years of their presence in Pegasus. They were around for a LOT longer than that.. and i doubt that everything in Atlantis was created during those last 100 years... there must be a lot of technology in the city that was created long before the war with the Wraith:

Spoilers for Echoes:
The whale communication device being one of them.

Pegasus_SGA
December 30th, 2006, 02:54 PM
The Ancients were fighting the Wraith. And they thought it'd be nifty with a game that only runs in Real Time? A game that's so sophisticated it could be more than a game? And they never bothered to ask the game if it was a game or not? It was only a game to Sheppard and Rodney. The ancients developed the system to observe social developments on various planets, so to them it was the real deal. And this took place prior to them fighting the Wraith.


[QUOTE]BTW, concerning energy conservation: It doesn't matter if it wasn't draining a lot of power. They were shutting down everything that wasn't essential. The game was not essential.

Yes, I agree that Atlantis had shut down all non essential systems, how frequently, I can't remember off hand, and yes the 'game' probably would have been shut down at one time or another, but the ancients must have had a back up to store the data otherwise can you imagine developing a society for hundreds possibly thousands of years, and then go damn there goes the power, back to square one, lol.

FallenAngelII
December 30th, 2006, 02:55 PM
I didn't say he ignored those things at all, I said there are more important things than giving them the knowledge to make weapons. Trading should never be off because of one disagreement and they should have perservered. Rarely will you get two sides who don't agree on something to just suddenly agree straight away. It takes time to develop trust and opena nd honest negotiations from both sides. I mean look at us still arguing the same points.
Stop saying he gave them weapons. He didn't.

Who was he supposed to trade with besides John? And it was still a game. Rodney gave John an offer, John turned it down, they fought, John sent Rodney foods that would kill him, they fought some more. And from there they refused to trade with each other.


Not me, I didn't say that. I said there should have been other things Rodney could have concentrated on before giving them the information on weapons manufacturing. We don't know that they were or they weren't, as we only saw a handful of people. Looks can be deceiving...
He played the game for over two years. The Geldarians hadn't tested the bombs yet so they seemingly didn't exist (which means that the technology he gave them that they used to create the bombs were given to them pretty recently). Two years, that's plenty of time to make sure everything's working and no one's dying from malnourishment and easily treatable diseases.


The problem is, we don't know what John did to his civilisation, because the ep was one sided and focused on what McKay did wrong not what Sheppard did wrong, i'm sure he made mistakes, who wouldn't if you were playing a game with that level of detail. Again we don't really know what Sheppard did to his world apart from the things you mentioned, because it was focused on rodney, and the errors they made collective and unilatteraly (McKay). if they had shown Sheppards errors, we probably wouldn't be having this debate.
We don't know what they didn't do. We only know what they did do. Nothing in the episode showed either side suffering from poor leadership besides the war. I mean, they all looked healthy and happy. I'm pretty sure both sides had working societies.

And it's not like they only do what the Oracles tell them to do. They don't stop breathing if the Oracles don't remind them to breathe. They probably did a lot of things, like make sure everything was in working order, on their own.


When you get frustrated, you personally attack someone because of their preferences of who they may or may not like on the show. It is irrelevant if a persons loves or hates a character and it should never get in the way of debating an episode, or any other argument (unless the thread is about 'My character is better than your character because...) And it can lead to bad feelings adn frustrations from other posters. Several times we've debated certain things together, and I for one have really enjoyed debating with you over this, but when you reply to some of my posts there is always an underlying tone. And that's bad debating, because once you get personal you lose the argument.
You were the one who responded to my question of "Why are you automatically assuming John's right and Rodney's wrong when it's a He-said-he-said situation" with "Since when does Rodney not whine"?


I have had a lot of experience dealing with countries that have had to overcome hardship, so when I discuss various things with you regarding sociology and ecology etc, it's because i've been there and done that and bought the T-shirt so i'm speaking from what I know. Just as you're speaking from what you know, ie your knowledge of gaming. I knew diddly squat about that until you told me. So when you talk about being bored with 'the game' so to speak your going off your own thoughts and feelings and not what Rodney and John's thoughts and feelings are towards the game. it's a natural thing when you care about a particular character. But, don't you think if they were bored they would give up. The fact that they've been playing it this long shows a lot about their character. I'm sure I asked you this before, and you may have responded by the time I post this, lol, but [B]would you give up a game you'd been playing for weeks because it got too long or would you persevere?
I would not give up a game I'd been playing for weeks because it took too long to play unless the reason it took too long to play was stupid, like if it was an RTS that ran in real time (and only real time).

Hardships this, hardships that, overcome, schmovercome. From what we saw, they were all healthy and happy. No one was living in misery. You're just assuming that because Rodney gave his people a lot of technology and scientific knowhow, he must've neglected tons of other fields and let his people suffer for that.


But you'd always be able to play, that's the point everyone (well, nearly) is trying to make to you, it's not a SIM's game, its an extreemly advanced piece of technology, that is so detailed you could play it for centuries and still get only to the medieval period (as the ancients did) It is so much so that even McKay didn't realise that there were extra levels and stuff and the mans a genius, lol.
1) We have no idea how long the Ancients played with Geldar and Hallona.
2) Radek hacked the console. Rodney probably didn't bother with hacking it.
3) Would you play the game in real time, only giving out advancement in real time?


I agree they're both smart enough to realise when something is not as it seems, and they should have noticed, but maybe they were just caught up in the heat of it all. Although they didn't control it physically, they had all that power at their fingertips and were fully aware that their tasks and instructions were being adhered to. why would you want a pause button. You'd just upload your commands and let your people do the work that you instructed, not unlike a King/Queen, president/prime minister...however you want to define their role.
A pause button would be for if you needed some time to make up a decision or if you didn't want the game to progress (because tons of things happen when you leave it alone) without being there to monitor things.

Heat, schmeat. They played the game for over two years. They had plenty of time to contemplate that it might not have been a game.

Pegasus_SGA
December 30th, 2006, 03:42 PM
Stop saying he gave them weapons. He didn't.

Who said he gave them weapons? I said, (and it's indicated in your response to me btw) that 'he gave them the knowledge' as indicated in about two posts ago, and I even quoted what was said in the ep.


Who was he supposed to trade with besides John? And it was still a game. Rodney gave John an offer, John turned it down, they fought, John sent Rodney foods that would kill him, they fought some more. And from there they refused to trade with each other.

They could only trade with each other, that was why it was so important to discuss trade amicable, but they didn't. And the reason they couldn't trade with other worlds, is because they lacked the sophistication to build a craft capable of space travel. Saying that though, if the boys continued to play for much longer, i'm sure Rodney would have designed a space craft for them, lol. He'd already started with the blimp :) yes, it was a game to John and Rodney, but it wasn't a game to the Ancients. That's a bit dramatic isn't it about the lemons? It was just a game after all, so Rodney wouldn't have suffered any problems as a result of the lemons...unless he started licking the screen that is ;) hehehe, As I said in my first post, Rodney was demanding stuff, you can't just demand stuff, you have to negotiate. Rodney offered beans as trade, John wanted lumber. Why not just trade lumber instead of giving him what he didn't need. John sent rodney lemons, Rodney's people weren't allergic to lemons.




He played the game for over two years. The Geldarians hadn't tested the bombs yet so they seemingly didn't exist (which means that the technology he gave them that they used to create the bombs were given to them pretty recently). Two years, that's plenty of time to make sure everything's working and no one's dying from malnourishment and easily treatable diseases.


No they hadn't tested the bombs, because they weren't ready up until the point that Sheppard and Rodney came to the planet. How do we know that this information was given recently? Yes two years is long in our time for development, but what about a medieval society? That's nothing when you are trying to enhance any society, it takes time to make changes. how do we know no one was dying from malnutrition when we only saw a hnadful of people. I've no doubt that it would be an area that Rodney would not neglect, but medicine is not his expertise, and neither is it Sheppards. So do we know if they malnourished or dying? Nope, unless TPTB give us the notes on this :)



We don't know what they didn't do. We only know what they did do. Nothing in the episode showed either side suffering from poor leadership besides the war. I mean, they all looked healthy and happy. I'm pretty sure both sides had working societies.

And it's not like they only do what the Oracles tell them to do. They don't stop breathing if the Oracles don't remind them to breathe. They probably did a lot of things, like make sure everything was in working order, on their own.


My point was just that in my previous post, we didn't know what they did or didn't do. Ummm, gonna have to disagree with you on the leadership side. They were not very good leaders. Otherwise the whole doomsday scenario would not have been necessary.



You were the one who responded to my question of "Why are you automatically assuming John's right and Rodney's wrong when it's a He-said-he-said situation" with "Since when does Rodney not whine"?


Yes I did respond to your question, and I gave you my reasons on the whole cheating thing based on facts. Again with Rodney and the whole whining. Can you give me an episode where Rodney hasn't whined? lol, i'd bet you'd be hard pressed to find one, but that is Rodney, that's his personality.



I would not give up a game I'd been playing for weeks because it took too long to play unless the reason it took too long to play was stupid, like if it was an RTS that ran in real time (and only real time).


No, I didn't think you would, it's not in your nature to give up. That's the same with most people though if they don't like something or they get bored they stop playing. The fact that both Sheppard and McKay continued to play for 2 years should tell you something though.



Hardships this, hardships that, overcome, schmovercome. From what we saw, they were all healthy and happy. No one was living in misery. You're just assuming that because Rodney gave his people a lot of technology and scientific knowhow, he must've neglected tons of other fields and let his people suffer for that.


If they were happy, why then were they going to war?



1) We have no idea how long the Ancients played with Geldar and Hallona.
2) Radek hacked the console. Rodney probably didn't bother with hacking it.
3) Would you play the game in real time, only giving out advancement in real time?


Nope, right on point 1. Right on point 2...we'r on a roll now. Point 3 i've already given you an answer on that several times in fact. Do I need to quote myself again? I'm getting quite good at the whole multiple quote things now. Do I get brownie points for that?



A pause button would be for if you needed some time to make up a decision or if you didn't want the game to progress (because tons of things happen when you leave it alone) without being there to monitor things.

Heat, schmeat. They played the game for over two years. They had plenty of time to contemplate that it might not have been a game.

It's debateable whether you need a pause button, maybe they had one that said 'hang fire for my next instruction', again we don't know, it's just speculation.

Yes they did play for two years ON and OFF, not continuously. As I said before they may have been too caught up in the whole thing. We don't always think rationally when we're involved with something that we love and are passionate about.

FallenAngelII
December 30th, 2006, 05:01 PM
I'm leaving this thread now as we're just repeating ourselves. I'll reply if a new discussion opens up.

The people went to war because they didn't like each other, not because they were unhappy with their lives in their respective villages. That's my final word here.

Pegasus_SGA
December 30th, 2006, 05:06 PM
I'm leaving this thread now as we're just repeating ourselves. I'll reply if a new discussion opens up.

The people went to war because they didn't like each other, not because they were unhappy with their lives in their respective villages. That's my final word here.

I understand completely. Thanks for the interesting debate.

Mitchell82
December 31st, 2006, 12:09 AM
Ok it seems to have gotten a little heated in here and alot of hearsay. Ok some have asked why would they assume that it was a game. The Anceints were very advanced and probably copuld have created a far supperior video game than we ever could so why not think it was a game since it had no immeidiate evidence that it was real. I have played a few RTS and to be honest I likely would have played it the same way. It seemed to play in real time but there was nothing wrong with either of their stratagies and since it was real and made to "help" advance people it seemed the Ancients left it preety open as too what you could do. I think both John and Rod have their own ideas of how to advance their people. John being a military man advanced their army and weapons. Rod advanced them scientifically but had no intention of giving them bombs. They did that on their own. I see both their actions as logical for a game and also logical for ereal world when they realized it. I still feel this was a great ep.

obsessed1
January 1st, 2007, 10:37 AM
Ok it seems to have gotten a little heated in here and alot of hearsay. Ok some have asked why would they assume that it was a game. The Anceints were very advanced and probably copuld have created a far supperior video game than we ever could so why not think it was a game since it had no immeidiate evidence that it was real. I have played a few RTS and to be honest I likely would have played it the same way. It seemed to play in real time but there was nothing wrong with either of their stratagies and since it was real and made to "help" advance people it seemed the Ancients left it preety open as too what you could do. I think both John and Rod have their own ideas of how to advance their people. John being a military man advanced their army and weapons. Rod advanced them scientifically but had no intention of giving them bombs. They did that on their own. I see both their actions as logical for a game and also logical for ereal world when they realized it. I still feel this was a great ep.
Thats a good point and I agree. Plus Humans are fallable and if you say something like that you probably would assume it was a game and think 'i'll have a go!" :D

MB.Eddie
January 2nd, 2007, 10:20 AM
Awesome episode. Really enjoyable.

I loved how Zelenka and Lorne were playing the game at the end, and how they were going nuts at each other. I also liked how McKay and Sheppard did similar all the way through the eps. Plus the Geldar people hating the evil citris.

obsessed1
January 3rd, 2007, 12:52 PM
Awesome episode. Really enjoyable.

I loved how Zelenka and Lorne were playing the game at the end, and how they were going nuts at each other. I also liked how McKay and Sheppard did similar all the way through the eps. Plus the Geldar people hating the evil citris.
Yeah that whole scene in the boardroom between the woman from geldar and Baden was really funny, because you could see how Shep and Mckay had really taken their arguments and filtered them through their people!!!

And Shep sending a crate of lemons to Mckay's people was just too good!!!!

Raj_2006
January 8th, 2007, 04:35 AM
Off topic questions - When does the next episode air?

PG15
January 8th, 2007, 06:51 PM
In 2 hours.

SlytherinGal
January 8th, 2007, 10:25 PM
question...have you guys seen Sunday yet??? and is there 4 eps left??? (after 317..The Ark that is)

PG15
January 8th, 2007, 10:37 PM
No, and yes. ;)

SlytherinGal
January 8th, 2007, 10:49 PM
okay..thanks :D

meredithchandler73
January 18th, 2007, 08:43 AM
Well, I really enjoyed this episode. Loved how Lorne and Zalenka got sucked into the game just as much as McKay and Sheppard. And Weir had to step in and straighten them out. (Maybe it's just the most recent episodes, but I get the Weir-as-Mom vibe with most of the men being little boys that need discipline. It just makes me wish we could see Weir being child-like and/or carefree and irresponsible.)

Nice catch on Geldar's flag being the Canadian flag with McKay's face instead of the maple leaf. That's brilliant.

Liked McKay's choice of short blonde hair to be the fashion, too.

LOVED the whole citrus thing. I loved seeing Weir figure out how a gift offering could be an insult. (Sheppard offering a crate of citrus to McKay's "people" as a gift offering was rather cheeky.) You could see that Weir was going to try to explain why the big blow up about citrus, but neither side wanted to listen.

I have to say, I've never been interested in games like Civilization, but watching this episode actually made me curious about trying them out.

bcfc
February 2nd, 2007, 05:52 PM
I liked this a lot it showed Rodneys and Johns rivalary at its best, although it was unfortunate for the Planet.

The Great Lord Baal
February 7th, 2007, 12:57 PM
Good episode
Serious rivalry between sheppard and mckay
Lorne and Zelenka are the new sheppard and mckay
I liked that guy who was head of sheppards army I thought he was cool
So mckay really cant get carter out of his mind making his leader a blonde
I thought it was good that sheppard beat mckay in the chess to put him in his plac a bit

Ellara
February 7th, 2007, 01:23 PM
Episode Highlights for me:-

1. Shepherd and McKay snarking over game.
2. Geldar Rodney Flag.
3. Citrus Fruit Offering.
4. Lorne and Zelenka snarking á la Shepherd/McKay.
5. Geldar and Zolona being taught moral lesson.
6. Shepherd kicking McKay's butt at chess!

This sums it up for me! Good episode.

m_wendy_r
February 7th, 2007, 02:06 PM
What an awesome episode!!!! Age of Empires anyone?

The words With Great Power Comes Great Responsibility come to mind. It was a very thought provoking episode and I enjoyed watching the story unravel. I found it eerie because it reminded me of countless of conversations, debates and often heated discussions I've had over the years about how much of our lives we control and if you've ever played Age of Empires then you really see the resemblence. I've spoken to people who believe that some being/person/God controls everything we do; like that fine line between fate and destiny. And this episode really touched on that.

Weir proved once again she's the morale voice for the Atlantis team, and I loved the way Shepherd and McKay continued their discussion like it was still a game to them despite the fact they had both seen with their own eyes that it was in fact very real; they couldn't quite break away from the two years previous. I know I would have difficulty with that, even with proof I still wouldn't quite believe that the game I'd been playing was actually effecting lives. I felt sorry for them both. I didn't feel sorry for Lorne and Zalenka - they both walked straight into that with their eyes wide open.

I think I would really have to watch this episode again because I'm sure there are extra details that I missed.

Wendy
Hugs :)

ETA: I hope the above makes sense :D

mancslad08
February 7th, 2007, 02:55 PM
Episode Highlights for me:-

1. Shepherd and McKay snarking over game.
2. Geldar Rodney Flag.
3. Citrus Fruit Offering.
4. Lorne and Zelenka snarking á la Shepherd/McKay.
5. Geldar and Zolona being taught moral lesson.
6. Shepherd kicking McKay's butt at chess!

This sums it up for me! Good episode.


See, that proves my point that people rate episodes because of little tiny details like that, other than looking at the whole episode.

mancslad08
February 7th, 2007, 02:57 PM
Rubbishly tedious and boring episode that nearly put me to sleep.

As though we haven't had enough stories on Stargate about two war-ing countries/continents, they gave us another with yet more pathetic acting.

Lorne/Zelenka playing with another planet's civilisation pretty much destroyed their characters. That scene should never have been filmed, let alone edited into the episode.

On the plus side, McKay was actually pretty good this time around and not the snappy, whining, idiot he usually is.

3/10.

Zzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzz

Lus
February 8th, 2007, 01:52 AM
Episode Highlights for me:-

1. Shepherd and McKay snarking over game.
2. Geldar Rodney Flag.
3. Citrus Fruit Offering.
4. Lorne and Zelenka snarking á la Shepherd/McKay.
5. Geldar and Zolona being taught moral lesson.
6. Shepherd kicking McKay's butt at chess!

This sums it up for me! Good episode.

Yep, same for me. Especially the Citris Fruit offering, definatley the sort of thing Shep would do to McKay. :lol:

jannagalaxy
February 8th, 2007, 02:41 AM
There is something I remeber before the episode was shown last night on Skyone. They said it was a world premier...I don't think so! Canada showed it first.

lissafoss
February 8th, 2007, 04:27 AM
There is something I remeber before the episode was shown last night on Skyone. They said it was a world premier...I don't think so! Canada showed it first.

I spotted that as well, think they got confused because we are getting SG1 first.


I was a bit disappointed with this episode.
When they found out it wasn’t a game they didn’t seem upset enough about what they had done. They seemed more like little kids that knew they had done wrong but didn’t quite realise the extent of what they had done.
And although Lorne and Zelenka arguing was fun, after what Sheppard and McKay had just done, I really think they would have known better then to even consider interfering.

I also find it hard to believe McKay hadn’t looked at exactly what the game was earlier, or they hadn’t told anyone else about in the two years they have been using it.

I didn’t hate it, I just didn’t find a lot of it believable.

Lus
February 8th, 2007, 06:34 AM
There is something I remeber before the episode was shown last night on Skyone. They said it was a world premier...I don't think so! Canada showed it first.

I picked up on that. I get really annoyed sometimes at the commontary before some of the episodes including SG1. They also get something wrong, mis-pronounce a word like - Goa'uld and Ori or completely give the plot the away like in Common Ground when Shep was captured by the Genii and had a Wraith feed on him, they gave it away! :mckay:

Has anyone else noticed that Sky have no adverts for SG1 & SGA, BSG & the other new programs are advertised all the time but Stargate isn't. You'd think they would especially with the amount of Stargate they show & seeing how SG1 is the World Premiere and it's coming to an end.

Sorry for the vent, it just ticked me off. :lol:

mancslad08
February 8th, 2007, 10:58 AM
Thing that bugs me most about sky is that idiot announcer talking about what's on next before the credits have even rolled!!

We've got the nice dramatic ending music, Executive Producers... NEXT ON SKY ONE!!!!!..... pisses me off because it completely destroys the mood of the ending.

Imagine that happening after the last scene in Unending.

Ellara
February 8th, 2007, 12:21 PM
Quote Originally Posted by Ellara

Episode Highlights for me:-

1. Shepherd and McKay snarking over game.
2. Geldar Rodney Flag.
3. Citrus Fruit Offering.
4. Lorne and Zelenka snarking á la Shepherd/McKay.
5. Geldar and Zolona being taught moral lesson.
6. Shepherd kicking McKay's butt at chess!

This sums it up for me! Good episode.




See, that proves my point that people rate episodes because of little tiny details like that, other than looking at the whole episode.

Just because I chose to list my favourite points DOES NOT mean that I didn't take in the view of the ENTIRE episode!

I could see by the length of this thread that the episode had been reviewed quite thoroughly by many others and to do so myself would serve as nothing but a repitition of this.

I thought bullet-pointing it was a more than adequate way of showing my appreciation of the acts that I enjoyed the most.

I'm sorry that didn't meet with your satisfaction.

Maybe next time you should ask me how I feel about the episode before you type such derogatory remarks about something you know nothing about.

Matt G
February 12th, 2007, 04:01 PM
1. Weir was harsh on the guys earlier. Me and my best mate could have wound up in a similar situation to an extent given the circumstances. Then again, from there on in Zelenka and Lorne were fair game.

2. "You sent us a crate of lemons - that is the ultimate insult to my people". :D

3. Nice trick to end the conflict.

4. Should they have worked out it wasn't a game? How were they supposed to?

Overall, Sheppard and McKay at their best. Not sure how it matches with Tao of Rodney but a definate quality ep!

zantose500
February 19th, 2007, 05:19 AM
I loved this episode, maybe because I am a huge gaming fan but I also liked the whole set up for it and the relationships between actors. There are two thing I found in this episode that i found rather bad. First, why the hell is Weir so angry at Sheppard and Rodney, its not like they knew that they were playing people in real life, I think her anger is really unjustified. The second was the leader of Rodney's nation actor, I don't think she was the right role for it and it could have been better played, she is an amazing actress but was not right for the role.

rosey_angel
April 21st, 2007, 02:40 AM
I loved this episode, maybe because I am a huge gaming fan but I also liked the whole set up for it and the relationships between actors.

hehe, after watching this ep, and seeing the intensity of the characters towards the game makes me want to get involved in a similar sort of game. the cloest thing my computer will/may handle is a SNES game Harvest Moon lol

i really loved this ep. as a person who didn't really like sga to begin with, i think s3 is really cool. each ep has me going 'hmm' rather than grr.

really interesting moral dilemma's raised. made me think a lot about the current wars and political situations.

interesting how quickly lorne and zelenka got involved in the game.
it would be cool to see how teyla and weir would have played the game. coz weir is a negotiator, and teyla, although a leader has been a warior. would they have escalated into war as quickly? coz it seemed like it took shep/mckay 2 years, but lorne/radek 2 hours :D

garhkal
April 22nd, 2007, 11:06 AM
it would be cool to see how teyla and weir would have played the game. coz weir is a negotiator, and teyla, although a leader has been a warior. would they have escalated into war as quickly? coz it seemed like it took shep/mckay 2 years, but lorne/radek 2 hours :D

That would have been fun... or wier against cadwell..

Though i wonder if there are other planets out there it is tied into..

rosey_angel
April 23rd, 2007, 01:18 AM
That would have been fun... or wier against cadwell..

Though i wonder if there are other planets out there it is tied into..

weir v caldwell! that would have been really cool

it would be nice to see if we run across another planet that is monitored, and the ppl are angry at atlantis ppl coz they think they took away their oracle... maybe?

Hatusu
May 11th, 2007, 07:35 PM
A good episode. It really made you think. I've played Sim City, which obviously inspired this episode, but it was never this good. The arguments between Sheppard and McKay and between the two leaders seemed very "real life". The end was a little pat, but it surprised me.

Did anyone else spot GW member, Strivaria in McKay's village? :D

Jackie
May 11th, 2007, 07:38 PM
I liked this ep. it played well with power and morality that we see in the video games. reminded me of War Games, the movie with Mathew Broderick.

Scale of 1-10--I would give it an 8.:)

monkey_man132
May 11th, 2007, 07:41 PM
I enjoyed the episode. It was entertaining seeing it a second time but hard to watch it entirely. I absolutely love the parts with McKay on Canadian flag, telling them about citrus, and sunlight. :lol:

I hate when the episodes go into morals so much. When they realized it was real people they should have just gone back to Atlantis and work together to make them live peacefully. Right?

Kingomon
May 11th, 2007, 07:54 PM
I enjoyed the episode. It was entertaining seeing it a second time but hard to watch it entirely. I absolutely love the parts with McKay on Canadian flag, telling them about citrus, and sunlight. :lol:

I hate when the episodes go into morals so much. When they realized it was real people they should have just gone back to Atlantis and work together to make them live peacefully. Right?
true
this was an interesting episode

I blame McKay for the war

the fifth man
May 11th, 2007, 07:57 PM
I really enjoyed this episode. Definitely one of my favorites of this season.

jds1982
May 11th, 2007, 08:07 PM
This episode really made me want to play a game like this, are there any out there similar to this? With that kind of multiplayer like options?

monkey_man132
May 11th, 2007, 08:40 PM
I blame McKay for the war Yea, it was the bicycles with one big wheel.:)


This episode really made me want to play a game like this, are there any out there similar to this? With that kind of multiplayer like options?
I play Age of Empires 3 (the expansion pack). In online multi player you can trade resources with allies. Also theres a free for all version of play that is fun because you can talk with other players and make alliances and make it like real countries. I enjoy that part the best.

theboywonder
May 11th, 2007, 09:16 PM
only thing i didnt like about this ep was that stupid blonde chick who was the leader of mckays country, she just seemed to stubborn and unwilling to compromise to anything, i just wanted to kick her in the teeth the whole time.

suse
May 11th, 2007, 09:29 PM
A good episode. It really made you think. I've played Sim City, which obviously inspired this episode, but it was never this good. The arguments between Sheppard and McKay and between the two leaders seemed very "real life". The end was a little pat, but it surprised me.



Yeah, I immediately thought SimCity too. But I was quite bored. <sigh> Yet another Shep and McKay show. What a waste of other talent. Hope this changes. And no, I don't mean focus on Sam. Other characters need development.

suse

garhkal
May 11th, 2007, 09:31 PM
I liked this ep. it played well with power and morality that we see in the video games. reminded me of War Games, the movie with Mathew Broderick.

Scale of 1-10--I would give it an 8.:)

Nice tie to war games..


only thing i didnt like about this ep was that stupid blonde chick who was the leader of mckays country, she just seemed to stubborn and unwilling to compromise to anything, i just wanted to kick her in the teeth the whole time.

Yea, it did seem that she was pigheaed that way.

suse
May 11th, 2007, 09:34 PM
That would have been fun... or wier against cadwell..

Though i wonder if there are other planets out there it is tied into..

Speaking of "tied to" I thought the machine was disconnected - Weir told Lorne and Zelenka to do that.. How come the oracle machines still worked on the planet?

suse

ancientaction
May 12th, 2007, 05:11 AM
good episode.

i liked how the two lands had formed themselves around there 'oracles' personality, from Mcays and citrus, and Shep giving mcay citrus...

and the endgame was great



one mistake that i saw.

the satalites were obiriting the planet, and they wernt cloaked...
and they asked the chic about the wraith.. they had been there....

so... why didn't the wraith destory the satalites?

AGateFan
May 12th, 2007, 07:37 AM
only thing i didnt like about this ep was that stupid blonde chick who was the leader of mckays country, she just seemed to stubborn and unwilling to compromise to anything, i just wanted to kick her in the teeth the whole time.
Yeah....she acted just like Mckay. Go figure.

If he hadnt given them his fears of citris and the sun and his arrogance maybe the war wouldnt have happened. Sure Sheppared made a warrior society but suprisingly they were not the aggressive ones overstepping their bounds it was the "advance" society that thought they were better then the other people that did that.

LaCroix
May 12th, 2007, 08:15 AM
I liked this ep. it played well with power and morality that we see in the video games. reminded me of War Games, the movie with Mathew Broderick.

Scale of 1-10--I would give it an 8.:)


I also loved the War Games theme too. I also saw a little bit of The World is Not Enough thru the competition of Rodney and Sheppard, ala James Bond and Renard. But that was only in reverse.


In TWINE, there was a game where the players felt pain when they played. It was a reminder of the pain of those foot soldiers of each side felt. In The consequences. In this episode the players felt the "pain" was felt when they saw what their decisions during the course of the game had wrought.

Naomi
May 12th, 2007, 11:16 AM
An okay episode, but not one of my favorites. I like episodes that have the main characters growing, changing, and/or something that advances the Atlantis story.Shepherd and McKay began playing the game two years ago - not new; and Weir had the game room unplugged (so to speak) and sealed, so I don't see the game room being a factor in future episodes, but, who knows?I think that this episode rehashed Shepherd's and McKay's personalities, without showing anything new. The heavy-handed morality lesson - war bad; peace good - didn't have the finesse I've come to expect from Atlantis stories. I think that Nola and Baden did the best they could with the material.



one mistake that i saw. the satalites were obiriting the planet, and they wernt cloaked...and they asked the chic about the wraith.. they had been there....so... why didn't the wraith destory the satalites?

I wondered about that as well.

Kingomon
May 12th, 2007, 12:01 PM
Yeah....she acted just like Mckay. Go figure.

If he hadnt given them his fears of citris and the sun and his arrogance maybe the war wouldnt have happened. Sure Sheppared made a warrior society but suprisingly they were not the aggressive ones overstepping their bounds it was the "advance" society that thought they were better then the other people that did that.

yeah that is why I blame McKay. The fact is the "McKay" Society was the one who pushed themselves further into "Shepard" Society land. that would be considered an act of war.
And I agree with Shepard....McKay cheated

sparklegem
May 12th, 2007, 12:42 PM
Overall I really liked this episode. Weir was great, strong, and sensible. Teyla, as the leader of her people, definitely should have been utilized more in communicating with the societies' leaders. She's much more qualified than McKay and Sheppard. Plot was interesting, the respective village leaders were interesting, not Stargate cliche like Line in the Sand (yay!). The resolution was done well-I felt a great deal of suspense. I'm in complete denial that Sheppard beat Rodney at chess. :sheppardanime23: <-- He cheated! :P (only in retribution, of course) Finally, though, I feel this is another episode where the writers created a very serious plot and then didn't do it full justice for the sake of comedy.

My main issue with this episode was McKay's and Sheppard's juvenile banter and initial lack of appreciation of such a serious situation. Yes, they were sobered once they realized they'd set up a war, but as two very intelligent leaders I'd expect them to have an immediate appreciation of the consequences and feel responsible for how they influenced their respective societies, not assume it was harmless and benevolent, or at least express concern over the quality of life, education, etc. They made choices for the direction of the societies under the assumption that none of it was real, and of course such choices will not be beneficial to a real society because they wouldn't be as seriously considered and weighted as to how they would affect people's lives. The citrus debacle, for example, was just an inside joke that ended up having serious political ramifications.

That is perfectly apparent to me, and I'm certainly NOT one of the smartest people in the world, but apparently only Weir has enough sense to realize this, while the boys seem insensitive to the people they've affected and more occupied with who stuck their tongue out at the other first. I thought it was especially stupid to bicker in front of the society's leaders, probably giving them horrible impressions. How would we feel if, at a time Earth was dependent on the Asgard, Fair Game for example, Thor brought a buddy along and started bickering like a 10 year-old with him? Nola and Baden thought Sheppard's and McKay's guidance to be divine, and their realization they really were only being played with must have come harder with how immaturely Sheppard and McKay presented themselves.

The addictive nature of the game was very well presented with Lorne/Zelenka, and I understand that McKay and Sheppard were invested in all this from the point of view of a game, so it would be hard to completely change your perspective. I guess I just expected more :shrug:.


I found the McKay and Sheppard banter excessive...it was too much and I found that their characters were presented like two immature kids playing games , specially when facing Weir who was given the bad role of the Teacher reprimanding them. It's not serious for the Leaders of Atlantis.


did think that the bickering was over the top considering the seriousness of the situation. They almost caused a war...Overall the guys came across as too immature for my liking with Weir like their teacher or mother figure repimanding them.

prion
May 12th, 2007, 01:22 PM
Episode Highlights for me:-

1. Shepherd and McKay snarking over game.
2. Geldar Rodney Flag.
3. Citrus Fruit Offering.
4. Lorne and Zelenka snarking á la Shepherd/McKay.
5. Geldar and Zolona being taught moral lesson.
6. Shepherd kicking McKay's butt at chess!

This sums it up for me! Good episode.

It was a fun episode. I'm not into gaming myself, but have read about Sims, so it seems to be like that, right? I also loved it when Shep called Geldar "Gelding." Ouch! ;)

You know, all those flags and painting would go for a pretty penny at a charity auction ... they did that with paintings they had done for Kung Fu: TLC

garhkal
May 12th, 2007, 09:13 PM
one mistake that i saw.

the satalites were obiriting the planet, and they wernt cloaked...
and they asked the chic about the wraith.. they had been there....

so... why didn't the wraith destory the satalites?

I wonder why the wraith did not cull it,... Did they not discover it or something?

PG15
May 12th, 2007, 09:37 PM
The Wraith did cull the planet, it was said in the episode.

As for the satellites...what would be the point? They aren't weapons or any form of threat to the Wraith, and they don't really stand in the way of food; destroying them would just be a waste of weapons power.

Naomi
May 13th, 2007, 06:03 AM
As for the satellites...what would be the point? They aren't weapons or any form of threat to the Wraith, and they don't really stand in the way of food; destroying them would just be a waste of weapons power.

True, the satellites are not a threat to the Wraith, but the Wraith wouldn't know that when they did the first culling of the planet. Even if the Wraith did not destroy the satellites because they somehow figured out that the satellites were not a threat, why wouldn't the Wraith take the satellites in order to study the technology? If the first culling occurred after the Atlanteans and the Wraith were at war, that makes the satellite system being untouched odder, as the Wraith would realize that the people of the planet did not have the technological know-how to make the satellites and put them in orbit. That would mean that the satellites belonged to either their enemies, the Atlanteans, or another unknown race - a potential food/technology source.

I understand establishing that the planet was on the Wraith radar; that it had been culled. A planet suitable for habitation that had never been found by the Wraith would become the place to put refugees, and a back-up base. A potential refuge from the Wraith was not the focus of this episode. I can't think of a good justification for the Wraith leaving the satellites untouched.

PG15
May 13th, 2007, 11:58 AM
If they wanted to study the satellites, they would've only needed to take one of them; hardly detrimental to the entire satellite system.

And, since there are other planets with the same satellites, this one could've been unchanged after the Wraith figured out that the satellites were basically useless to them.

Boxytheboxed
May 13th, 2007, 12:11 PM
that satelite thing bothered me too, but i really likeds the ep. espicilay mckay on the flag and mckay making the girl look like sam carter

monkey_man132
May 13th, 2007, 12:24 PM
The Wraith did cull the planet, it was said in the episode.

As for the satellites...what would be the point? They aren't weapons or any form of threat to the Wraith, and they don't really stand in the way of food; destroying them would just be a waste of weapons power. What if the Wraith could harvest the advanced sub-space communications that the satellites have? They could communicate across the galaxy.

garhkal
May 13th, 2007, 12:44 PM
That is a valid point, though maybe they felt using atlantiean tech would allow them to tap in to what they were doing..

PG15
May 13th, 2007, 12:49 PM
^That's a good one.


What if the Wraith could harvest the advanced sub-space communications that the satellites have? They could communicate across the galaxy.

Couldn't they do that already? Besides, I'd think they'd rely on their telepathy more.

monkey_man132
May 13th, 2007, 12:54 PM
^That's a good one.



Couldn't they do that already? Besides, I'd think they'd rely on their telepathy more.
Well the telepathy doesn't work across entire galaxies. Imagine if Wraith could talk across the galaxy, "Hey Bob The Wraith, Steve over on hive 12 said he found i tasty human muahahahahaa lets suck its life force."

....not good. :mckay:

GhostPoet
May 14th, 2007, 12:02 PM
I really liked this episode...I enjoyed the character interaction and story as a whole. :)

Carter1994
May 17th, 2007, 01:21 PM
I loved it, I loved it, I love it!

:sheppard28: :mckayanime03:

McKay and Sheppard were so funny! I loved it when Sheppard said, "You told them how to make a bomb?!" and then, "You just had to cheat didn't you." Then the part where they got mad at Shep's, um, 'country' (I guess) because of the citris? I nearly choked with laughter! :)

The only part I didn't like was the fact that Weir was so hard on Rodney and John. :weiranime34: I mean, they didn't know! Granted, she acted in the right when she told them off for trying to contol them after they knew, but I still think she was tough. (Please don't interpret this as disrespect. I have the utmost respect for Weir- she's my second favorite character.)

esheppard
July 26th, 2007, 09:41 AM
The Game is one of my favourite episodes of Season 3.

I could watch is 100times :D

placid
July 30th, 2007, 09:37 AM
I found this one of the more enjoyable episodes of season 3, although there were a few holes in the plot, the biggest being how Shepperd and Rodney have played this game for like two years and only now does anyone find out about it.
The storyline had an interesting matrix-like simulation theory aspect to it though.

Alexandra
August 3rd, 2007, 12:34 AM
I think this episode was a bit childish, IMHO.
What do we find out about the characters in this episode, that John creates a military society and Rodney a science-based one. Good, I already knew they were capable of that. And when they were fighting about the game, I thought, that's not very mature of them.
Of course they eventually made things better, and fixed everything, and we cam always say that beeing in Atlantis induces a whole amount of stress so it's understandable that they behaved like kids, but ..... it could have been better.
And, come on, the people on that planet wre portraied like toys, with not much mind of their own.
The idea was ok, but the development was shallow, IMO.