PDA

View Full Version : Sunday (317)



Pages : 1 2 [3] 4 5

expendable_crewman
January 19th, 2007, 04:39 AM
Er, if Sheppard isn't supposed to date within the ranks, and he can't date a civilian, what's left? Trees? Squirrels?

Don't you worry now about Sheppard.

IMO, the regs referenced by FoolishPleasure leave out Sheppard's boss, but unless you ship Sheppard with someone who is in the Atlantis military, you're still good to go and so is Sheppard.

And of course there are lots of Pegasus ladies out there. (That should go over well.)

Thank you, FP, for getting me pointed at military regs.


Teyla would be considered "civilian". As you can read, there can be no hanky-panky between Shep/Teyla without ramifications. Specifically note: "Relationships with Civilians" and "Dating and Close Friendships", along with "Responses to Cases Involving Dating and Sexual Relationships".

Besides getting a lovely trip down memory lane .... it's been a long time since I chatted about good order and discipline ... your post clarified the reasons why I listed MY reasons why Sheppard and Teyla CAN date.

If we set aside the obvious "flexibility" permitted in the Atlantis military by the writers, we can at least look at the three key points real life command staff use to determine if a relationship is unprofessional.

A relationship gets tagged as unprofessional if it has the potential to erode good order and discipline, if it can have a questionable effect on morale, or if it can impact the chain of command in that one of the parties is directly supervised by the other.


Looks like there shouldn't be any Weir/Shep either.

Yep, that pretty much finishes Sheppard and Weir.

Teyla is on Sheppard's team. So are Rodney and Ronon.

I don't think Sheppard's dating Rodney or Ronon would impact good order and discipline, impact the chain of command, or adversely affect morale. Oh, wait ... Okay, you get my point.

I've made these calls for people under me ... is your realtionship professional or a potential for bad morale ...

Back to the show ...

My call for Sheppard and Teyla is go for it, have fun, knock yourself out.

I listed my reasons in an earlier post on this thread but without using the regs to explain why my reasons would be the deciding factor.

My bad.


If TPTB move along with any Shep/Teyla "ship", they are making a mockery of US military Standards of Conduct.

Ah, now. A TV show coming up with its own interpreation of an RL procedire, protocol, or discipline. Heaven forbid.

What does the guidebook say about who goes through the Stargate first, the most senior person or the least senior person? What if there are civilians in the detail?

Hmm.

I'm thinking I won't find that in the rules on military conduct.

Leaving us in TV land who are watching a show set in another galaxy to use common sense ...

In real life, you can date your civilians when they aren't in your chain of command. Working alongside a person doesn't make that person in your chain of command. That may be what's confusing some people. Chain of command has to do with authority and another person's ability to impact your pay, your freedom, and your career.

In the show, Sheppard doesn't have authority over Teyla.

For me the term "command authority" is binding, as in not arbitrary. And it is rigid. Forget ship. Just look at ordinary events. Out of curiosity, does anyone see Sheppard having binding, command authority over Teyla, Ronon, or McKay?

Ronon and Teyla especially follow Sheppard because they choose to.

Teyla's not even contracted to Atlantis.

IMO, the writers created this dynamic between Sheppard and his team because it works for the show.

That removes the "authority over" issue.

Leaving the concern about morale and the impact to good order and discipline.

That's why I mentioned that people (civilians, military, and now in the Ark

some random alien guy we've never met before)

aren't worried Sheppard will leave behind anyone on his team, personal relationships aside.

The character of Sheppard is written to show he'll shed his blood for all of them.

He's said so.

A relationship within a unit or across units gets evaluated by the command on these points.

IMO, Sheppard and Teyla are a go.

Edit: I met my husband when we were in the same unit. We stayed in the same unit. Military personnel attended our wedding. Our son was born on base. Not fiction, but RL. Imagine what can happen in fiction.

http://forum.gateworld.net/showpost.php?p=6216678&postcount=419

Ronnikins
January 19th, 2007, 06:00 AM
Regarding Sunday:

Must admit when I saw the opening credits with PM's face and name on it I started feeling sad already. Grrr!!!! Why do I read spoilers? *facepalm*

Overall, a truly touching episode, beautifully written and wonderfully acted by all the cast. Martin Gero scored again and Will Waring did a fine job directing :D
I didn't think I would like it so much for various reasons but it surpassed my expectations. Not the best for Season 3 but near the top.

The highlights:

*Top of the list has to be Beckett and how he interacted with his friends. He was so comfortable with everybody and so caring. One could feel the family love of the Atlantis expedition.
I thought the manner of his death was entirely in keeping with his character. If one had to die then that was a befitting way to go, by saving the life of another human being. It was not useless at all IMO. I will miss him though. *sighs*

*The Teyla/Weir scenes were an absolute delight to watch and I would have liked to seen more of that in future episodes. (Not holding out much hope there. You know why.)

*I like this Mike Branton. Seriously hot.Can we keep him please? (Shave his beard first) If I can't have my preferred ship then I guess he's not too shabby a replacement. :P

*McKay/Katie Brown made a very cute couple. He was so Rodney but you could tell she adored him. For a genius Rodney has got some low self-esteem issues on the social front. On a shallow note, Katie Brown kept reminding me of Hillary Duff. Just like Mike kept reminding me of Dr Carter in ER.

*The memorial service and the Beckett/McKay end scenes were touching. Not too sickly sentimental but enough to get across how much they all cared for the good doctor.

The lowlights:

*Hmm....no lowlights really except that Carson got killed. Yeah, that's pretty low. :(

*Seemed also like this episode pretty effectively killed off all ships, het and slash, with various scenes and various comments. Lots of close friendships though. As usual there was a lot ambiguity and various interpretations so might as well enjoy what you go for but nothing really was made canon except for McKay/Brown.

*I am so over shipping wars.
If one sees J/T here then good I hold no animosity with the Sheylas. (I saw close friendship myself. I thought she was referring to Beckett too with her confession, especially coupled with her "So sad...*pause*...just so sad" comment later. Thought she was going to express how she felt.) I wish them the best of luck with their ship and that was not a snark so please don't interpret it that way. I just want the whole thing to be handled with grace.

Overall, an episode I enjoyed and I didn't....if that made any sense.

TJuk
January 19th, 2007, 06:35 AM
Actually, pointless deaths are ones done in order to boost ratings, reshuffle cast for some inane reason, etc. So many shows are killing off regular characters in the past couple tv seasons that they are pointless. It's just for shock value and nothing else.

THANK YOU Prion. That was the point I've been trying to make. It WAS NOT so much the fact his death was pointless in terms of story, but in terms of the SHOW. Removing a popular actor and character from Atlantis when it most needs every bit of support it can get doesn't make sense.

I agree with ShadowMaat it appears as if despite their bowing to fan pressure and promoting him, they didn't know how, or rather weren't prepared to write for him. The easiest way to get out of an actors 5 year contract? Kill the character off. I hope that doesn't happen to Rachel next season and I'm starting to get that feeling they dont know what to do with Sheppard now either...which worries me greatly.

The use of character deaths as a ratings grabber has been done to death recently. THAT will make it loose a lot of shock value to begin with. The fact this show has done it before so blatantly is also something the press and critics (aka bad publicity) will also pick-up on. Because it airs in Canada first, but the US ratings are what the financers look at, any real benefit to ratings from 'shock' value is greatly deminished. The internet has blurred broadcast market boundries and they need to catch up to that. Hence TV shows are in production that will 'premiere' online. But as a result of the net activity a very large chunk of the fandom will know about the news and judging by the lurkers coming out of the wood work to comment, you can safely bet a lot of the 'adverage' viewers who dont usually participate are also more then aware.

As for my right to shout about it and the opinion its viewed as obsessive. Well speaking as a successful career women, I feel no need to justify my right to come on a DISCUSSION board and partake in DISCUSSION. Call me an obsessive, doesn't both me mate. And I wasn't aware that 'dicussion' was only deemed appropriate if it included being rude to others for their feelings on a subject, or only being allowed to blindly follow and praise people who make the show I'm watching and are therefore a CUSTOMER. Someone better tell the critics they're out of a job! Obviously someone missed the 'importance of constructive criticism' at school (whether you agree with it or not, constructive means presenting an opinion with examples of why you feel that opinion is valied and argueing the various pros and cons of that opinion).

And as for the reasons. Well I have to do on what we DO know. The actor did not want to leave. He has been REPLACED by Jewel confirmed to have 12 eps by MGM casting...Paul only had that many this year, so budget constraints can be dismissed as a factor. AT will cost at least TWICE what any other regular does (because Scifi have harped on about SG1's salaries as an expense factor) yet they bring Jewel in also. I can believe a subjective arguement, because its clear the old blood struggled to use him, though the new writers did not simply view him as 'the doctor' and seemed more predisposed to using him as a CHARACTER rather then just his job description.

Also, one final thing. Bad english is not a reason to neither dismiss nor critisise someones post and/or areguement. This is the WORLD WIDE WEB which means people of all ages, nationalities and therefore LANGAUAGES will come to this forum to participate. GateWorld is the biggest and most well know Stargate Fansite. So its the sentiments NOT the way its written as long as its understandable. Maybe you (AlphaBlu) should take that into consideration BEFORE you feel the need to be rude or condesending towards others.

FoolishPleasure
January 19th, 2007, 06:45 AM
A relationship within a unit or across units gets evaluated by the command on these points.

IMO, Sheppard and Teyla are a go.

Edit: I met my husband when we were in the same unit. We stayed in the same unit. Military personnel attended our wedding. Our son was born on base. Not fiction, but RL. Imagine what can happen in fiction.

See, the regs I posted didn't say people in the same unit couldn't date, IF they were equal rank, and not working directly together, especially one a direct supervisor of the other (this applies to officers, enlisted personnel, and civilians, btw). I don't know what your rank was, but enlisted personnel may have slightly different relationship regs - I only looked up Officers. It specifically states a CO cannot "date" an enlisted member, and cannot show favortism, or "implied" favortism to anyone else, or behave in any way which "could" jeopardize mission status. A "unit" can be made up of any number of people, but a small "away team" of 4 or 5 cannot have a CO having romantic feelings for one of the 4. That is court-martial territory. The regs specifically state "integrity and service before self".

For example: Relationships are unprofessional, whether pursued on or off-duty, when they detract from the authority of superiors or result in, or reasonably create the appearance of, favoritism, misuse of office or position, or the abandonment of organizational goals for personal interests. Unprofessional relationships can exist between officers, between enlisted members, between officers and enlisted members, and between military personnel and civilian employees or contractor personnel. Fraternization is one form of unprofessional relationship and is a recognized offense under Article 134 of the Uniform Code of Military Justice (UCMJ).

Now, you are going to say this won't apply because everyone knows Teyla is pure as driven snow and Shep would never do anything bad, but just look at "The Ark" where Shep wasn't interested in saving 1000 civilians, but then went on the same mission just for Teyla. That is what the military frowns on. Personal interest must be pushed aside - its favortism, fraternization, whatever. It can jeopardize the mission, the base, and cause unnecessary loss of life. If a field CO can save 1000 civilians (that he has never met) by losing one member of his team (or even himself), he will do so. That is his job (bless their hearts)! The military is there to protect us peons - it isn't there to save us IF none of them will get hurt!

The whole Shep/Weir, or Shep/Tey, just won't work. Even Sam/Jack was never resolved due to AF regs, much to the dismay of shippers everywhere.

macktheknife
January 19th, 2007, 07:09 AM
Re: Doctor Killing

They can't really kill someone from the main team, as that would be a huge, major change in the show.. but they still occasionally want to do something to show people die or whatever, and not just redshirts.

People like grodin and slightly expendable, but in the overall scheme of things not that important (now we have Chuck the Canadian doing his control room job and Zelenka took over his science duties). Can't really kill the Generals or Weir.

The last group is spaceship captains and leaders of other groups. Very few actually make it to a recognisable type role, so killing them means more work introducing another character. Sg1 killed a ship captain and his ship and by next week they already had another captain, and another whole bloody ship. Damn near nameless those guys are. No-one cares if they die.

In steps the Doctors. There is usually only one named doctor on any show, they get a good amount of screentime. Less than the team, but more than faceless randoms.

They don't have a huge effect on the actual episodes all that often, don't effect the team dynamic like losing shepard or carter would, and are replaceable without heavily effecting the show, and still have a impact on the other characters and show watchers.

So they get the chop. They are the middle of the balance between killing redshirts, and ruining a show by killing all the main characters. They cause angst, but don't effect the show as much.

I don't like it one bit however. Especially in such stupid situations. Exploding Tumours and randomly joining a massive firefight to save one random soldier and not well written ways to kill a character.

macktheknife
January 19th, 2007, 07:14 AM
If a field CO can save 1000 civilians (that he has never met) by losing one member of his team (or even himself), he will do so. That is his job (bless their hearts)! The military is there to protect us peons - it isn't there to save us IF none of them will get hurt!

It depends on the field CO's mission. He might willingly sacrifice those 1000 civilians if his mission, or the team member is important enough. He might decide that saving the civilians risks the whole of his team, and the mission and he must let them die.

AlphaBlu
January 19th, 2007, 07:17 AM
What we DO know from Paul himself is that he didn't want to go, and has asked fans to keep campaigning to bring him back. He released an official statement on www.paulmcgillion.com (http://www.paulmcgillion.com) a few days ago.

None of which tells us why it happened, so please stop pretending to know what happened (or, at the very least, making judgement calls about what you think happened) when we all very clearly know nothing of how this decision came to pass. I mean, you very well may turn out to be right, but until we know the facts we can't come to any concrete conclusions, nor make demands based upon this non-existant conclusions.


Isn't that surmising every bit as much as the pro-Carson members of this forum are? Except you are almost writing it as fact. Which it is not - it is your hypothesis, and yours alone.

You claimed that the death of Carson was to service that episode, as though it was just another normal thing to do. My fake dialogue highlighted the absurdity of such a line of argument with the 'Next week, let's kill Weir' comment. The point I was making was that it is very unlikely that Carson's death was a spur of the moment thing.

There are such things as contractual obligations. You don't just write someone out of a show without contract negotiations, buy-outs, etc, all of which would be discussed at length. You wouldn't just turn in a script and go 'Oh, by the way Brad, I killed Beckett in this script - is that ok?'.


And if you lose the condescending, sarcastic and inflammatory tone of your posts, people might find it a little easier to take you more seriously.

Forgive me if I find the prospect of reliving the who Meridian debarcle to be utterly horrendous.


And I guess we shall agree to differ about Daniel missing from season 6 improving it - I felt it was one of the weakest seasons of SG-1.

I guess you've never watched Season 7 then. Go and watch *spits* Space Race *spits* and then come back and tell me with a straight face that Season 6 was the weaker...


So no-one has the right to get upset about the decision to axe a character? I guess you don't live in a world where free speech is encouraged.

Oh for crying out loud, don't put words in my mouth.

You can be upset. I was upset about Daniel leaving. I was upset about Jonas leaving. I was upset about about Jack leaving. I was shocked at Grodin dying. I was shocked at Pendergast's and Emmerson's deaths. Jacob dying as well. Fraiser. I would rather not have had all of these things (in some cases), and everyone lived and all the characters I liked stayed alive. I think SG-1 with Jonas and Daniel would've been awesome.

But I'm not going to demand something of TPTB as if they owe me something. By all means, get upset, but ditch this 'How could they! How dare they betray us like this!' nonsense attitude. It's a television show about wormholes and big honkin' space guns - that's all.


Who are YOU to lay out the limits of where passionate borders on obsessive?

As I said, making demands to television studios, writers and producers as though they somehow should answer to you is obsessive. Why not, instead, write a letter to Paul saying how much you enjoyed his time on the show, and hope to see him crop up again in the future. Why mark his end as a regular on Atlantis with hate-filled bile towards the makers of the show, when you could instead take the time to remember the fun and well-liked character we just lost.


Obviously, there's nothing in your life that you care enough about to want to make a difference.

*chuckle* Well, that's most certainly true when we're talking about a television show.

Let me put it another way:

This will be the 11th year Stargate has been with us. I was 13 when Children of the God's aired. Stargate remains the single show I follow near-religiously, and has been a major part of my life through all my formative teenage years, all of school, university, and into my working career. But it's still a television show for God's sake, and I'm not going to yell at Joe Mallozzi or Martin Gero because a character was killed...


I APPLAUD those who have the courage to speak out, whether it's about a character on a TV show, or larger issues - you'll find they are usually the same people having the courage to speak out AT ALL, instead of muttering about "obsessees" and not having the courage to do anything themselves.

Are we now trying to equate 'speaking out' against a change in a television show to, say, political activisim? If so, then you're right. This has nothing to do with 'obsessiveness', and more to do with delusional behaviour...


Again, I disagree strongly with you on this point. I feel it would have been a MUCH better decision to choose to develop the existing characters

Oh of course, I don't disagree with that. Having followed many of David E. Kelly's shows (The Practice, Boston Legal, Boston Public, etc.) and watched the mistreatment of characters and the near-endlessly shifting main title screens (Ally McBeal, especially, suffered from it's cast walking in and out of a revolving door), I would much rather they just sat down and worked out what to do with the character.

But they're not, but I don't think it will be bad. As I said, making O'Neill the general was a breath of fresh air. It meant the writers could just get on with it and write shows without having to invent reasons why O'Neill wasn't around in the field as much (this was the major reason that Season 7 sucked). I think that with the writers not having to constantly wonder 'How does Weir fit into this story', we can open up the show, story-wise.

So yes, more development for established characters is good, but this could also work. Just give it a chance before you call Variety. Please!


and therefore build on an already strong fanbase rather than pissing off a large portion of this fanbase just to try to attract SG-1 and Firefly fans.

1. I doubt they're doing it to attract Firefly fans. Chances are all 10 of them already watch Atlantis.
2. I don't like the idea of Carter being on so much of Atlantis either, so I won't disagree with you there. And to add to that, say Carter does end up being the captain of a new ship on Atlantis. We'll now have 'Worf Syndrome'. Remember how in the Next Generation films they always had to invent reasons for Worf to come aboard the Enterprise (the Defiant just happened to be there in First Contact, Worf just happened to get time off for Insurrection, etc.). I see that happening with Carter and the SG-1 movies.


A lot of them have already stated they won't watch SGA simply for AT and Jewel - they would rather see then back in their own respective shows...

And? People have been saying since Season 5 that they'll never watch Stargate again. So many of these people are still saying that, or going on endlessly about how much they hate the show each week (yet they still continue to watch it). People proclaiming to not watch a show any more isn't new, and is little more than a bluff.

That said, I'd probably lose interest if McKay left... ;)

BYE

stewsith
January 19th, 2007, 07:46 AM
That episode was so sad. I teared up alot at the end when carson's spirit spoke to rodney. Havent been that emotional at an episode since Jacobs death in Threads.

Very well written, kudos to Matrin Gero! He is probably my favourite writer on the show now!

immhotep
January 19th, 2007, 08:05 AM
I have to say that i really loved this episode, its exactly what SGA needed, an episode to delve in to the people on atlantis. It started off really well, with the Teyla and the girl tlaking, then elizabeths date.
Then rodneys berating the two newbies. Him getting out of fishing. Spending time with Kate.

It was a really moving episode because weve never sene that side of the characters ever before, i loved the fact that lorne paints, very charming, and becket..Oh beckett.:(:(:( We have lost the soul of atlantis, the human quality, hes going to be sorely missed but i think his end was one that fitted him, he died saving someones life, its the way he would want to go.
The Tumor weapon, that could be really interesting, nasty..it takes the concept of cancer to a whole new level, but against the wraith..beaming that in to hive ship could be amazing. But yeah i havent got many words, i cant believe hes gone :(

ata_beckett
January 19th, 2007, 08:16 AM
They don't have a huge effect on the actual episodes all that often, don't effect the team dynamic like losing shepard or carter would, and are replaceable without heavily effecting the show, and still have a impact on the other characters and show watchers.

...You know, except when they have story arcs that essentially span the length of an entire season.

...I'm just saying.

Mercury973
January 19th, 2007, 09:02 AM
TPTB never said that Carson would be recurring. In response to the rumours about Paul leaving the show, they eventually confirmed that Carson would "disappear" towards the end of Season 3 and mentioned that they might bring Paul back (note, Paul - not Carson) at some point, maybe as a different character.



*Snort* Hey! Look at that guy who just came off the Daedalus. Doesn't he look exactly like Carson? What a coincidence!!!

ShoDar
January 19th, 2007, 09:08 AM
What we DO know from Paul himself is that he didn't want to go, and has asked fans to keep campaigning to bring him back. He released an official statement on www.paulmcgillion.com a few days ago.

That says he would love to come back, which isn't exactly the same thing. As an excercise, Shanks in season 6 could have been:
To fans: Thanks for all the support. I'd love to come back.
To tptb: The fans want me back. I'd like to come back but only if you do something better with the character

I'm not saying I really think that is the case here, but my point is our hard info supports many ways of looking at it.



Besides getting a lovely trip down memory lane .... it's been a long time since I chatted about good order and discipline ... your post clarified the reasons why I listed MY reasons why Sheppard and Teyla CAN date.

Good points. But I'm more worried about the idea of should they date, as in would it be good for the show. IMHO it would be a disaster. Plus, I'm not convinced that Teyla meant John at all in what she said in the ep.




...You know, except when they have story arcs that essentially span the length of an entire season.

...I'm just saying.
You know, I never really saw it like that. To me it was more that they used him near the beginning of the season and near the end and ignored him the rest of the time.

ShoDar
January 19th, 2007, 09:10 AM
Actually, pointless deaths are ones done in order to boost ratings, reshuffle cast for some inane reason, etc. So many shows are killing off regular characters in the past couple tv seasons that they are pointless. It's just for shock value and nothing else.

Thankfully, I don't think this is what has happened here.

bluealien
January 19th, 2007, 09:22 AM
See, the regs I posted didn't say people in the same unit couldn't date, IF they were equal rank, and not working directly together, especially one a direct supervisor of the other (this applies to officers, enlisted personnel, and civilians, btw). I don't know what your rank was, but enlisted personnel may have slightly different relationship regs - I only looked up Officers. It specifically states a CO cannot "date" an enlisted member, and cannot show favortism, or "implied" favortism to anyone else, or behave in any way which "could" jeopardize mission status. A "unit" can be made up of any number of people, but a small "away team" of 4 or 5 cannot have a CO having romantic feelings for one of the 4. That is court-martial territory. The regs specifically state "integrity and service before self".

For example: Relationships are unprofessional, whether pursued on or off-duty, when they detract from the authority of superiors or result in, or reasonably create the appearance of, favoritism, misuse of office or position, or the abandonment of organizational goals for personal interests. Unprofessional relationships can exist between officers, between enlisted members, between officers and enlisted members, and between military personnel and civilian employees or contractor personnel. Fraternization is one form of unprofessional relationship and is a recognized offense under Article 134 of the Uniform Code of Military Justice (UCMJ).

Now, you are going to say this won't apply because everyone knows Teyla is pure as driven snow and Shep would never do anything bad, but just look at "The Ark" where Shep wasn't interested in saving 1000 civilians, but then went on the same mission just for Teyla. That is what the military frowns on. Personal interest must be pushed aside - its favortism, fraternization, whatever. It can jeopardize the mission, the base, and cause unnecessary loss of life. If a field CO can save 1000 civilians (that he has never met) by losing one member of his team (or even himself), he will do so. That is his job (bless their hearts)! The military is there to protect us peons - it isn't there to save us IF none of them will get hurt!

The whole Shep/Weir, or Shep/Tey, just won't work. Even Sam/Jack was never resolved due to AF regs, much to the dismay of shippers everywhere.

I don't think that any Co is going to abandon his team and randomly give up his life to save strangers (considering those same strangers tried to kill him and his team in the first place). A CO needs to make judgement calls - not to willy nilly give their lives up for anyone who happens to be in danger. A CO's job is to protect his people first and then to carry out his mission - its not their job to attempt to save everyone they come across - particulary when it means certain death.

John would risk his life for any of his team - doesnt have to be in a relationship to do so - we saw him risk his life in Sateda for Ronan so favouritism doesnt really come into play here.

I don't see John or Teyla ever putting their personal feelings before their job - and eventhough Teyla is a member of Sheppards team she is not under his command. The military have no jurisdiction over her. They may have over Shepard but IF they did object to him having her on his team - simple solution - she joins another team. I don't think the ptb will ever show their relationship manifest anyway - just continue to show that they have feelings for one another.

Lizabeth
January 19th, 2007, 09:26 AM
My thoughts on Sunday:

Overall, I thought it was a very depressing episode. Not sure what that means as far as whether it was good or not, but it was definitely sad. I was very fond of the idea of seeing everyone off duty, seeing it play out however had both it's good points and its bad points. Going through the characters scenes before the catastrophe one by one, I will begin with Elizabeth:

I wasn't surprised to see her in her office trying to work, that seemed very in character for her. I liked the idea of someone getting her out of her office for a break, but I didn't like that it was this Mike fellow who did it. Throwing in some character we'd never seen before to flirt with her seemed weird. Mike himself seemed like he was on the wrong show. He acted like a drama show character, granted that's sort of the part he was playing. I would have preferred that Elizabeth had been dragged off to lunch with one of the other main characters. I was glad to see she had lunch plans with Teyla, and it appeared often did. I would have liked to see her actually go through with that and see more bonding between them. Or I would have liked to see John drag her off to lunch. He did mention that she spends too much time in her office and he is often the one interrupting her. And we've seen them briefly eating lunch together once before. It would have been very natural for him to be the one to convince her to stop working for a while and enjoy the day off like everyone else.

Moving on to Teyla. Repeating what I said above, I was glad to see she had plans for lunch with Elizabeth, and wish we could have actually seen them keep those plans. While it was nice to see her have friends outside of the team, it was a little weird to throw in some random girl we have never seen before as a close friend that Teyla would discuss who she likes with. I was also disappointed, but not surprised that it was not revealed who she actually was speaking about.

Now for Ronon and Sheppard, I'll do them together since they were together pretty much the whole time. I was not surprised to see them hanging out together. I was very amused at the golf. Ronon's flag fighting game was also amusing. The two of them hanging out in John's quarters was a nice idea, but their conversation was just--weird. It seemed a little out of character to me. That said, looking at the content, I wasn't surprised about Ronon saying he wasn't ready for dating yet. However I have noticed him growing closer to Teyla, and especially worrying about her during Echoes, maybe he's closer to healing than he thinks. Which leads me to be a little surprised he asked about John and Teyla. Perhaps he was making sure he wouldn't interfere with anything, but I don't think he really was thinking that far ahead. I was very surprised to learn John had been married before. Not too surprised that he said there wasn't anyone on Atlantis he felt that way about. I think he feels very strong friendship for all the main cast, which includes as far as females both Elizabeth and Teyla, but I don't think he's thought too much on the romantic level.

Now for Rodney: Rodney's day was pretty much my favorite part. He and Katie are so adorable! Congratulations to the producers/writers, this is the best confirmed romantic relationship you've written. They were so believable and so cute, I was extremely impressed.

And Carson. Loved that he wanted so badly to go fishing. I would have gone. I love fishing! His death was tragic. I guess I don't have much else to say about it besides it was tragic and I wish it hadn't happened.

About the catastrophe itself, I thought Ronon should have showed more concern for Teyla. We all know John will be ultra concerned and ready to give up his life for any one of the group (Rodney, Ronon, Carson, Elizabeth and Teyla), but Ronon has shown some deep concern for Teyla before (especially in Echoes) and yet showed little concern here. It just seemed like a lack of continuity. Also bothersome to me, Elizabeth didn't seem very prominent in what was going on. They should have called her immediately. Maybe they did and she was coming, but then I would have liked someone to be like "Where is Elizabeth?" It just seemed like for the leader she was uncharacteristicly absent. She was also strangely absent in the aftereffects. Rodney and Ronon talked and John and Teyla talked. But we still don't know how it affected Elizabeth. Carson was a very close friend of hers, he was the one who came to see her on Earth when she couldn't move on. I would expect her to grieve this loss very deeply, and would have liked to have seen that. Personally, I thought there should have been a scene where John comforted her. He is a leader beside her, and more than that, a very good friend. He has been there for her when she needed support many times (Coup D'Etat, Critical Mass, etc.). I would have liked to see one of those scenes where he goes in her office or they're both on the balcony. It is very effective in showing them both as leaders and friends supporting each other through everything on this expedition.

A few other random things I enjoyed: Chess tournaments on Atlantis! And Lorne painting! For some reason, that one especially caught my attention. I like Lorne more and more all the time.

So overall, I think it is too sad an episode for me to come to a conclusion on whether I liked it or not. There were certainly points that I liked, but there were also points that seemed out of character or out of continuity. I will miss Carson, but I hope in new episodes the family ties in Atlantis will only grow stronger.

ata_beckett
January 19th, 2007, 09:28 AM
You know, I never really saw it like that. To me it was more that they used him near the beginning of the season and near the end and ignored him the rest of the time.


Retrovirus arc started with Instinct (even though they mentioned retrovirus stuff as early as "The Gift"), spanned through Conversion, the reemerged with Michael, Allies, No Man's Land and Misbegotten.

SIX episodes relating to that particular story arc. So I'd hardly say that Carson didn't have a huge effect on episodes.

Sweetsong
January 19th, 2007, 09:30 AM
Ok this may have already been posted, but 26 pages.. yikes. Anyways, apparently there was a funeral for Beckett off camera. Notice who carried the casket through the Stargate, one of them was Ronan.

I would have liked Ronan's first trip to Earth to be on camera. Of course he probably just went from SGC to the Church then the cemetary. That is of course if he went to the funeral or perhaps only helped carry the casket through the Stargate then returned to Atlantis?

ShoDar
January 19th, 2007, 09:36 AM
Retrovirus arc started with Instinct (even though they mentioned retrovirus stuff as early as "The Gift"), spanned through Conversion, the reemerged with Michael, Allies, No Man's Land and Misbegotten.

SIX episodes relating to that particular story arc. So I'd hardly say that Carson didn't have a huge effect on episodes.

I'm trying to remember my perceptions of season 2. Darned dvd delay! :p

Instict I'll give you. Conversion fits into the story arc, but was not really about Carson at all. The main impression I got from that episode was more about the team dynamic and the recipoicating from the team of Sheppard's "never leave anyone behind". And Michael was at the end of the season, so that's where I'm coming from I guess. But then, I didn't like Carson, so maybe I'm just blocking him out partly in my mind :lol:



Ok this may have already been posted, but 26 pages.. yikes. Anyways, apparently there was a funeral for Beckett off camera. Notice who carried the casket through the Stargate, one of them was Ronan.

I would have liked Ronan's first trip to Earth to be on camera. Of course he probably just went from SGC to the Church then the cemetary. That is of course if he went to the funeral or perhaps only helped carry the casket through the Stargate then returned to Atlantis?

I don't think Ronon could have gone to the funeral...at least not unless they made him wear earth clothes. He does stick out a little bit.

Callie
January 19th, 2007, 10:01 AM
I don't think Ronon could have gone to the funeral...at least not unless they made him wear earth clothes. He does stick out a little bit.

Yeah, they might have smuggled him in at the back after everyone else had arrived, then rushed him out afterwards. I can't imagine him being allowed to go to the wake - he'd probably get into a fight with one of Carson's brothers while misinterpreting something they said!

After the coffin's arrival on Earth there must have been a delay before the funeral because Rodney had to travel to Carson's mother to break the news, then the family would have to be gathered and the funeral arranged. A lot depends on where Daedalus was at the time as to how long it took Ronon and the others to travel back to Lantis, though, cos they couldn't have gone back through the Gate. IIRC, the two ZPMs in the Milky Way are at Antarctica and on board Odyssey.

Chailyn
January 19th, 2007, 10:12 AM
I shudder to think how, say, Joe Mallozzi might have handled Carson's departure. Probably nibbled to death by lemmings while Shep and McKay were busy flirting with a scantily-clad native girl in the next room. ;)

Add Lucius in there and I think we got ourselves a script! :P


That's the only thing that makes Carson's death somewhat tolerable for me. Gero did an amazing job on this one (exploding tumors aside). If Carson had gone out like Koyla I would have been very unhappy. So, even though I don't like that Carson was killed, and still think it was a mistake, I gotta give Gero props for at least not writing him out in a dud. Can you imagine what it would've been like to lose Carson in an Irresponsible or The Tower? I shudder at the thought.

Sweetsong
January 19th, 2007, 10:15 AM
A lot depends on where Daedalus was at the time as to how long it took Ronon and the others to travel back to Lantis, though, cos they couldn't have gone back through the Gate. IIRC, the two ZPMs in the Milky Way are at Antarctica and on board Odyssey.

Would it really be that difficult to borrow the Antartica outposts' ZPM to return to Atlantis then return it afterwards? Same planet, just a helicopter or jet ride away.

Haliyah
January 19th, 2007, 10:17 AM
I don't think Ronon could have gone to the funeral...at least not unless they made him wear earth clothes. He does stick out a little bit.


No more than someone with leather, piercings, and UV-reactive liberty spikes. :D

expendable_crewman
January 19th, 2007, 11:04 AM
See, the regs I posted didn't say people in the same unit couldn't date, IF they were equal rank, and not working directly together, especially one a direct supervisor of the other (this applies to officers, enlisted personnel, and civilians, btw). I don't know what your rank was, but enlisted personnel may have slightly different relationship regs -I covered the direct supervisor angle, so I'm missing your point here.

Enlisted and officers have the same rules, btw.

Does Sheppard have direct authority over Teyla? You already know my POV on this and why I have my POV. I'm sorry ... I hate when people write "read my last post" but in this case I've written my reasons for my point of view twice on this particular thread, so I'm going to refer you (respectfully) to my last two posts. Unless you want to open a new thread about it ...


I only looked up Officers. It specifically states a CO cannot "date" an enlisted member, and cannot show favortism, or "implied" favortism to anyone else, or behave in any way which "could" jeopardize mission status.

I listed my reasons why none of this applies to Sheppard and Teyla ... Wha???


A "unit" can be made up of any number of people, but a small "away team" of 4 or 5 cannot have a CO having romantic feelings for one of the 4. That is court-martial territory.

See above.


The regs specifically state "integrity and service before self".

For example: Relationships are unprofessional, whether pursued on or off-duty, when they detract from the authority of superiors
Not an issue.


or result in, or reasonably create the appearance of, favoritism, misuse of office or position, or the abandonment of organizational goals for personal interests.

Not an issue.


Unprofessional relationships can exist between officers, between enlisted members, between officers and enlisted members, and between military personnel and civilian employees or contractor personnel. Fraternization is one form of unprofessional relationship and is a recognized offense under Article 134 of the Uniform Code of Military Justice (UCMJ).

Not an issue.


Now, you are going to say this won't apply because everyone knows Teyla is pure as driven snow

What are we talking about here? I have not brought in the topic of purity, snow, nor the purity of snow. Or Teyla's purity, for that matter. Sounds like another subject entirely.

But, um, if you say she is pure as the driven snow, I'm sure you have your reasons.


and Shep would never do anything bad, but just look at "The Ark" where Shep wasn't interested in saving 1000 civilians, but then went on the same mission just for Teyla.

You should put the Ark thing behind spoiler tags.

The question of saving 1000 people didn't enter Sheppard's purview until after Teyla was in the people box. Sheppard said he'd do what he could. It was Rodney who said it was impossible.

There are four phases to the whole "save 1000 people" story line in the Ark.

The first phase was with Herrick up and well, the shuttle had fuel, and Herick could fly his people home.

The second phase had the moon in a decaying orbit due to an act of sabotage / attempted mass murder / attempted genocide; the shuttle had no fuel; and Teyla asked Rodney if saving the people in the people box was possible. Rodney said no. Sheppard's analysis, based on Rodney's opinion, won't come into play until phase four.

In the third phase, Teyla is a hostage and Sheppard tells Jamus he'll do whatever he can for Jamus's people. If Sheppard wasn't troubleshooting the people box issue with Rodney at that point, I blame it on the story, which was focused on the immediate emergency: a member of Sheppard's team was a hostage.

In the fourth phase, Teyla was in the people box and Sheppard was managing the emergency of a team member who was victimized by a criminal act.

I saw Sheppard say he'd pilot a shuttle with no fuel for anyone on his team.

I recall the convo in Sateda.

But everyone has a right to believe what they want. If Rodney, Ronon, Carson, Lorne, or Weir etc., went into the people box, Sheppard would have flown the shuttle. That's how he's written.


That is what the military frowns on. Personal interest must be pushed aside - its favortism, fraternization, whatever. It can jeopardize the mission, the base, and cause unnecessary loss of life. If a field CO can save 1000 civilians (that he has never met) by losing one member of his team (or even himself), he will do so. That is his job (bless their hearts)!

I'm not seeing what you see. In fact, I think you're confusing personal interest with Sheppard's responsibility to take care of the team. But since I don't see what you saw in the Ark, I can't comment further on the conflict.


The military is there to protect us peons - it isn't there to save us IF none of them will get hurt!

Wow. Although your comment about the purpose of the military is a bit flawed, I think the show does a good job of having its characters jump in feet first when it comes to protecting the folks they are charged to protect.

When the military folks in Atlantis do triage, seeing who can be saved and how and who can't and so on, it hasn't been based on realtionships.

It's not like we're saying relationships in Atlantis don't exist.

The regs you're quoting apply to friendships as well as dating. How come we're not going on and on about Sheppard becoming friends with McKay? Or Ronon?

He's friends with all the civilians on his team. I couldn't hang out drinking beer in the private quarters of my "commanding officer." Neither could Ronon. But the relationship, work-wise and personal, between Sheppard and Ronon fits perfectly as defined by the writers of Atlantis. Sheppard does not affect Ronon's pay, freedom, or career. Sheppard's friendship with Ronon isn't a moral "downer" and missions (good order and discipline) are not put in jeopardy by their friendship.

Likewise McKay and Teyla.

Why is it just Sheppard and Teyla's friendship, or whatever it is or might be, that's an issue?


The whole Shep/Weir, or Shep/Tey, just won't work. Even Sam/Jack was never resolved due to AF regs, much to the dismay of shippers everywhere.

I think it's looking pretty cute right now and with regard to Sam and Jack, when the writers started Atlantis looking at putting Teyla and Sheppard together, they set up a framework that wouldn't involve the barriers faced by Sam and Jack.

That is my opinion, of course.

FoolishPleasure
January 19th, 2007, 12:01 PM
Does Sheppard have direct authority over Teyla? You already know my POV on this and why I have my POV.
Your POV (or mine) doesn't matter. I simply quoted (and gave the link to) the official AF regulations.


Wow. Although your comment about the purpose of the military is a bit flawed, I think the show does a good job of having its characters jump in feet first when it comes to protecting the folks they are charged to protect.
Flawed? The military is not there to give glory to themselves or to help people only if they, themselves aren't hurt. They are there to serve (and die for) their country. Soldiers die for strangers every day, frequently for people who hate them. And sometimes they die helping people they weren't ordered to help. Its sacrifice. Its what they do.


Why is it just Sheppard and Teyla's friendship, or whatever it is or might be, that's an issue for you?
If you had read MY post, I stated, "in all fairness. . .this applies to Shep/Weir as well."


I think it's looking pretty cute right now and with regard to Sam and Jack, when the writers started Atlantis looking at putting Teyla and Sheppard together, they set up a framework that wouldn't involve the barriers faced by Sam and Jack.
But since our PTB aren't military, they probably had no idea of the regulations regarding military/civilian relationships.

This is getting a bit off topic, so I'm going off to play with the lemmings. ;)

Alipeeps
January 19th, 2007, 12:29 PM
*Snort* Hey! Look at that guy who just came off the Daedalus. Doesn't he look exactly like Carson? What a coincidence!!!

Hah. You may jest but it's common practice in the Gates.... I guess there's only so many actors in Vancouver.... :D

Haliyah
January 19th, 2007, 01:05 PM
Hah. You may jest but it's common practice in the Gates.... I guess there's only so many actors in Vancouver.... :D


Yeah. We sent them all to the states.

expendable_crewman
January 19th, 2007, 01:30 PM
Your POV (or mine) doesn't matter. I simply quoted (and gave the link to) the official AF regulations. Not even the military lives in your black and white world. Senior leaders use the regs to make calls. RL's a little more complicated than what the above comment suggests.

I'm telling you this because you appear to be under the assumption the folks in the military are automatons.




Why is it just Sheppard and Teyla's friendship, or whatever it is or might be, that's an issue for you?
To which you replied:


If you had read MY post, I stated, "in all fairness. . .this applies to Shep/Weir as well."

Actually the context of MY question was about the team. Weir is not on Sheppard's team and IMO at least in this discussion, the topic of Sheppard and Weir has been put to bed, in that I agreed with you. MY question refers to Sheppard's relationship to the OTHER civilians on HIS TEAM. His relationships with Rodney and Ronon do not fit the regulations you are quoting. If rigid adherence to a body of rules is your aim, why don't those highly informal relationships get attention?


Flawed? The military is not there to give glory to themselves or to help people only if they, themselves aren't hurt. They are there to serve (and die for) their country. Soldiers die for strangers every day, frequently for people who hate them. And sometimes they die helping people they weren't ordered to help. Its sacrifice. Its what they do.I saw that movie, too, but I can't remember its name. But, hey, let me know when you're actually interested in discussing the real world. Or Atlantis, for that matter.


But since our PTB aren't military, they probably had no idea of the regulations regarding military/civilian relationships.

LOL.

Mercury973
January 19th, 2007, 01:34 PM
Hah. You may jest but it's common practice in the Gates.... I guess there's only so many actors in Vancouver.... :D

Well, there are always us who are a little slow on the uptake. I didn't know he played young Ernest Littlefield until late last year.


Yeah. We sent them all to the states.

What is it with Canada and all the talent there? Is it the water?
Seriously- there is a large group of very talented Canucks here in the states.

Jeyla4ever
January 19th, 2007, 01:45 PM
I have mixed feelings about this episode...certainly very different and frankly not something that I'd want the writers to do too often....

First, I will miss Carson...Terribly! too much! What a brilliant character played by a wonderful actor....Paul McGuillon...

Thanks for the great times..and for making Carson one of my favorite Doctors....

Next, Jeepers....Rodney was never my favorite....didn't hate him, didn't love him...just didn't care for him...and his references to Ronon and Teyla...do get on my nerves..which didn't help...but since the Tao of Rodney and really this entire season.....I am officially falling in love with Rodney....

THANKS!

I've come to accept as he is.....and come to love and respect the side of him that annoys the heck out of me....

His scenes with Katie were so ackward, and yet so Rodney....and yes, God does have someone out there for you.....and for Rodney is called Katie! Men, the woman understands him....LOL

Loved it!

Elizabeth....I have mixed feelings about this....she looked wonderful btw....but why can't she have a relationship with a guy that isn't going off world and going on suicide missions? Why can't she balanced leading Atlantis and having her fun at the same time? I think it's doable.....and she deserves it and needs it....btw...I think Mike was HOT!

John and Ronon...loved their little bit! Too cute! Ronon looking out into the sea...loved that scene!

Clearly, John and Ronon don't have that guy bond yet...whatever that looks like.....I'm not sure...but they dont' have it yet!

It was good to see that they might start, but then who knows, maybe John was just trying to find out things from Ronon....LOL

And Ronon sees John and Teyla married...AW!

*clears throat* sorry!

Now, Teyla...she was interesting...something new for her that we didn't know...
her people have a day of rest every four days..WOW! How do they get anything done? LOL....at least do it the way the it was meant to be, every seventh day!

LOL

But, interesting...she likes this guy, but it's not her way to approach the guy..but she's so sure this guy likes her that she responded, with a "we shall see"..interesting...

Now, I don't know where the writers are going with this...but clearly, I liked the idea that Teyla is moving on and that she is developing other friendships besides the regular team...and that I liked a lot!

Now, Ronon has to do the same..did you guys see that look he gave poor Jim when he took the golf club away from him?? Oh, that was sooo funny!

Overall, I had my concerns about it...It certainly was a bit overwhelming with ships.....too much! LOL

but I liked it and I hope that the writers continue with the idea of the relationships further and to stir up the pot a bit as the seasons progress....

but, now....let's get back to the ACTION!

Carson will be sorely missed!

The Signal
January 19th, 2007, 01:45 PM
Okay, what to say about this episode? Thanks to the mix up between production order and airing order, this one has been long awaited, and so it would be almost impossible for TPTB to fulfill my expectations of this.

I was quite underwhelmed by the majority of the episode. The storyline was brilliant, and the structuring was a time tested winner, telling the story from different points of view, always makes for a good watch. The script was fine and the acting was some of the best SGA has had this season. But the thing I wanted most from this episode wasnt really there.

This episode began as a simple "Day off" idea, which essentially means the story is there, but it has to take second chair, with the primary focus squarely on the characters. Well, while we got that, we didn't get it to the extent that I would have personally liked. We didn't really get much out of the characters or their relationships that we didn't already know. Ronan and Shep are good friends (most of S2 and 3), Elizabeth can't leave her work behind in favor of having a real life (The Return Part One, amongst others), Teyla is very loyal to those close to her (Critical Mass), and despite it all, Shep has a deep caring for those around him (Sateda)

I really thought we'd get a deep insight into the characters, find out what made them tick and what they are really made of, and to be honest, I don't think we got that.

The plot (other than "day off") is nothing new, a piece of ancient tech that went wrong causes havok on Atlantis

That said, there were two hugely impressive points to this episode.

First of all is obviously the death of Beckett. Death in television is important IMO, not of a shows designated red shirts, of the reccuring characters, and even, on occasion, the regulars. Becketts death did for Atlantis what Fraiser's did for SG1, what Doyle's did for Angel, and what Jenny Calender's did for Buffy, it reminded me that in a world where people live in constant danger, they are occasionally going to die. They are regular characters, but that shouldn't mean that they are exempt from danger. What happened to Carson showed that a hero can do everything, save the day, but because they are a hero they might not make it back alive. I know that I would never want Beckett to come back full time, he was a fantastic character, but to bring him back full time, or even on a semi regular basis, would cheapen his actions somehow. He should have left that man to die, but he didn't because that wasn't who he was, he died doing what he believed was right, he went above and beyond and it cost him everything, and that should never be taken from him.

The second thing that stood out was the aftermath, the emotional ending that actually matched the end of "Heroes part 2". Rodney talking to Beckett, I will assume, was Rodney hearing what he wanted to hear, what he knew was what Carson would have told him if he were still alive. The fact that he could imagine Carson saying that just shows that he had a connection that went to the deepest levels of friendship, which was a beautiful thing to include, giving the episode the only moment of character focus that I expected to see.

Overall, despite all its faults, the fact that this episode saw potentially Carson's last heroic stand, and showed for the first time on SGA, the complete face of a friendship, this episode cannot earn less than:

8/10

kakenuri
January 19th, 2007, 02:07 PM
I hope he ascended and will descend soon.

They brought the body back to earth at the end. So no Ascention for him. And I doubt there was any ancient near atlantis to give him a lift anyway :(

I'm really disappointed because of this episode :(

Exploding Tumors... They couldn't even give him a good honorable death like they did with Janet (although I hate them for that one too). He's killed by a Tumor. That's exploding. Inside an organ-transplant transportation box. That's more or less inside the bomb-secure container. Which is opend on the far away side from Carson. Who is not much nearer to the bomb-secure container than Teyla was to the exploding lady.

:beckett03:

And now they bring another woman...

:(

Very disappointing.

Haliyah
January 19th, 2007, 02:13 PM
Well, there are always us who are a little slow on the uptake. I didn't know he played young Ernest Littlefield until late last year.

There's also Narim/Simon, and now Elia/Keller.


What is it with Canada and all the talent there? Is it the water?
Seriously- there is a large group of very talented Canucks here in the states.


I wholeheartedly agree! Including:

* Aykroyd, Dan: Comedian, Actor. "Saturday Night Live", "The Blues Brothers"
* Bochner, Lloyd: Actor. "Dynasty", "Naked Gun 2 1/2: The Smell of Fear"
* Burr, Raymond: Actor. "Perry Mason", "Ironside"
* Candy, John: Comedian, Actor. "SCTV"
* Carrey, Jim: Comedian, Actor. "The Mask", "Ace Ventura: Pet Detective", "The Truman Show"
* Chong, Thomas: Comedian, Actor. Half of Cheech and Chong
* Coates, Kim: Actor.
* Colicos, John: Actor. "Anne of a Thousand Days", "The Postman Always Rings Twice", played the first Klingon on "Star Trek", "Battlestar Galactica"
* Davis, William B.: Actor: "X-files"
* Doohan, James: Actor. Scotty on "Star Trek"
* Elliott, David James: Actor. "Melrose Place", "JAG"
* Ford, Glenn: Actor. "Gilda", "The Big Heat", "The Blackboard Jungle".
* Fox, Michael J.: Actor. "Back to the Future", "Family Ties"
* Fraser, Brendan: Actor. "Gods and Monsters", "The Mummy"
* Frewer, Matt: Actor. played "Max Headroom", "Honey, I Shrunk the Kids", "Star Trek:TNG"
* Garber, Victor: Actor. Mostly on Broadway. "Titanic"
* George, Chief Dan: Actor. "Little Big Man" (AAN), "The Outlaw Josey Wales"
* Greene, Lorne: Actor. Played Ben Cartwright on "Bonanza", "Battlestar Galactica"
* Hewlett, David: Actor. "Kung Fu: The Legend Continues," "Cube," "Treed Murray," "Nothing," "Stargate: Atlantis"
* Hill, Arthur: Actor. "The Andromeda Strain", "A Bridge Too Far"
* Huston, Walter: Actor. "The Treasure of the Sierra Madre" (AA), "Dodsworth", "The Devil and Daniel Webster", father of John Huston
* Ironside, Michael: Actor. "Scanners", "Top Gun", "Total Recall"
* Levy, Eugene: Comedian, Actor. "SCTV"
* Mandel, Howie: Comedian, Actor. "St. Elsewhere"
* McGillion, Paul: Actor. "See Grace Fly," "Stargate: Atlantis"
* Moranis, Rick: Comedian, Actor. "SCTV", "Honey, I Shrunk the Kids"
* Myers, Mike: Comedian, Actor. Wayne Campbell on "Saturday Night Live"
* Nielsen, Leslie: Actor. "The Naked Gun", "Forbidden Planet". Brother was Deputy Prime Minister
* Nykl, David: Actor. "Stargate: Atlantis"
* Perry, Matthew: Actor. "Friends"
* Plummer, Christopher: Actor. "The Sound of Music", "Star Trek VI"
* Priestley, Jason: Actor. "Beverly Hills 90210"
* Qualen, John: Actor. "Casablanca", "The Devil and Daniel Webster", "The Searchers", "Anatomy of a Murder"
* Reeves, Keanu: Actor. "Johnny Mnemonic", "Speed", "Bill and Ted's Excellent Adventure"
* Regehr, Duncan: Actor. "Zorro", "The Legend of Errol Flynn"
* Rubinek, Saul: Actor. "Unforgiven", "The Outside Chance of Maximilian Glick", "Star Trek:TNG"
* Shatner, William: Actor. Captain James T. Kirk on "Star Trek"
* Short, Martin: Comedian, Actor. "SCTV", "Saturday Night Live", "Clifford"
* Silverheels, Jay: Actor. Tonto on "The Lone Ranger", "Key Largo"
* Sutherland, Donald: Actor. "M*A*S*H", "Klute", "Ordinary People", "Eye of the Needle", "Bethune"
* Sutherland, Kiefer: Actor, Director. "The Bay Boy", "Stand By Me", "A Few Good Men"
* Thicke, Alan: Actor. "Hope and Gloria"
* Thomas, Dave: Comedian. "SCTV", "Strange Brew", "Grace Under Fire"
* Wincott, Michael: "The Crow", "Robin Hood, Prince of Thieves", "1492, Conquest of Paradise"

...And that's not even half.

*feels prouder than normal to be Canadian*

P-90_177
January 19th, 2007, 02:25 PM
I just saw the ep and wow oh wow was it brilliant.
First of all I love the interaction between all the characters. I loved to see Rodney and his Girlfriend together again. Rodney can actually be quite charming when he wants to be.
Also a lot of fans seem to be talking about the teyla/sheppard ship in this. i really don't get why. it was never mentioned who teyla was talking about at the beginning and i think ronon talking to sheppard was just meant to be guy talk. and the concern sheppard showed teyla was just the same concern any friend would give.
the ending was very good though. that moment between mckay and beckett brought a tear to my eye.

but i especially loved all the beckett scenes in this. maybe if they'd focused the character in that direction rather then a bit of comic relief who was scared of ancient tech he may have been in it for longer. oh well.

At any rate a big well done to all those who made this episode.

Ltcolshepjumper
January 19th, 2007, 02:31 PM
Well, they kind of hitned that it was Sheppard Teyla and her doctor friend were talking about when she said, "Well, you know him better than I do". Who else would teyla know really well and like besides Ronon or Sheppard?

LadyBozi
January 19th, 2007, 02:48 PM
About the catastrophe itself, I thought Ronon should have showed more concern for Teyla. We all know John will be ultra concerned and ready to give up his life for any one of the group (Rodney, Ronon, Carson, Elizabeth and Teyla), but Ronon has shown some deep concern for Teyla before (especially in Echoes) and yet showed little concern here. It just seemed like a lack of continuity. Also bothersome to me, Elizabeth didn't seem very prominent in what was going on. They should have called her immediately. Maybe they did and she was coming, but then I would have liked someone to be like "Where is Elizabeth?" It just seemed like for the leader she was uncharacteristicly absent. She was also strangely absent in the aftereffects. Rodney and Ronon talked and John and Teyla talked. But we still don't know how it affected Elizabeth. Carson was a very close friend of hers, he was the one who came to see her on Earth when she couldn't move on. I would expect her to grieve this loss very deeply, and would have liked to have seen that. Personally, I thought there should have been a scene where John comforted her. He is a leader beside her, and more than that, a very good friend. He has been there for her when she needed support many times (Coup D'Etat, Critical Mass, etc.). I would have liked to see one of those scenes where he goes in her office or they're both on the balcony. It is very effective in showing them both as leaders and friends supporting each other through everything on this expedition.

ok. GOOD! I thought I was the only one bothered by the lack of continuity. These last few episodes have been kinda *heh?* for me as is. The Ark, and Sunday seemed to ignore what happened in Echoes and Tao as far as character development? Don't you guys think?

ShadowMaat
January 19th, 2007, 02:51 PM
Well, they kind of hitned that it was Sheppard Teyla and her doctor friend were talking about when she said, "Well, you know him better than I do". Who else would teyla know really well and like besides Ronon or Sheppard?

While I dislike the idea of main character ships, I could probably appreciate the irony of Ronon trying to push Shep into considering Teyla while Teyla is trying to make a move for Ronon. ;) A bit on the cliched side, but most things are. At least on Atlantis. :P

watcher652
January 19th, 2007, 03:34 PM
Well, they kind of hitned that it was Sheppard Teyla and her doctor friend were talking about when she said, "Well, you know him better than I do". Who else would teyla know really well and like besides Ronon or Sheppard?
Well, as we've seen in this episode, the main cast members do interact with a lot of other people. We just don't see that. While Ronon pretty much admitted that he only really hangs out with John and Teyla, we certainly can't assume that Teyla only knows and likes Ronon or Sheppard. What about that mystery Marine from Tao? The team joked that it wasn't the first time she had her eye on a Marine. Some people here have said it might have been Carson. It could be anybody. Heck, it could even be another Athosian or someone from offworld that they trade with. It was left vague enough.

While TPTB aren't military or scientists or doctors, they do have consultants for those things. But the primary thing is always to serve the show and if an exception has to be made for the show, they do it (like Sheppard's hair, *cough*!) It's a scifi show, the whole thing is one big exception! :)

Speaking of exceptions, I thought I read or heard that while the medals on the uniforms are real, the order in which they are displayed is purposely wrong. Does anyone know if this is the case?

TheUnknown
January 19th, 2007, 03:48 PM
After the coffin's arrival on Earth there must have been a delay before the funeral because Rodney had to travel to Carson's mother to break the news, then the family would have to be gathered and the funeral arranged. A lot depends on where Daedalus was at the time as to how long it took Ronon and the others to travel back to Lantis, though, cos they couldn't have gone back through the Gate. IIRC, the two ZPMs in the Milky Way are at Antarctica and on board Odyssey.

They probably just used the intergalactic bridge.

Mitchell82
January 19th, 2007, 04:37 PM
They probably just used the intergalactic bridge.

That makes sense. I loved this ep and I truly think Carson's death was meaningfull.

the old briar pipe
January 19th, 2007, 06:13 PM
They probably just used the intergalactic bridge.

Not without a jumper, which they didn't take with them.

Hm. Then again, there's nothing to stop another pilot from coming through and picking them up, I guess.... Ah, the lovely off-screen plot device, friend of SF shows everywhere.


ok. GOOD! I thought I was the only one bothered by the lack of continuity. These last few episodes have been kinda *heh?* for me as is. The Ark, and Sunday seemed to ignore what happened in Echoes and Tao as far as character development? Don't you guys think?

Well, aside from the fact that The Ark specifically referenced Sateda and Sunday mentioned M&MM, Duet, and the accident in ToR, I think it's hard to stuff an ep full of references to other eps. Hard from a writing perspective (the story gets clunky) and hard from a syndication perspective (what if they're aired out of order, oh noes!)

But I think you're talking about character development specifically, yes? If so, I think Rodney's scenes with Katie and later when packing for Carson and imagining the conversation between them all show a real improvement in his attempts with people. Yeah, he ain't perfect, but he's never going to be. He was trying. I'll take it.

(Also, Ronon came in to check on him. That was very much about their interaction in ToR, in my mind.)

There wasn't much contact between Ronon and Teyla in this ep like there was in Echoes, true, but I was kind of glad both of them got to branch out a little. S2 felt very much like the two of them together were a permanent B-plot. For all that, Echoes pushed them forward more than S2 ever did (imo). I don't think they backslid, I think they just didn't get screentime together. There certainly was a lot of subtext and body language in the scene where they tried to get out of golfing with John. Not shippy, just a second conversation clearly happening with shoulders and hand movements and eyerolls.

I'm sure the next time we see an ep that divides out John/Rodney and Teyla/Ronon, we'll see Echoes come up again, at least subtextually.

watcher652
January 19th, 2007, 07:35 PM
They probably just used the intergalactic bridge.

Not without a jumper, which they didn't take with them.
If the intergalactic bridge and the midway station are complete, you don't need a jumper. You just walk thru the wormhole.

I would imagine the intergalactic bridge would end at the Alpha sites on both ends though. For security reasons, you wouldn't want to point right at Atlantis and Earth directly, although for defense reasons, maybe you would. There are shields at both 'Gates. I wonder how that's going to end up.

Sweetsong
January 19th, 2007, 07:50 PM
If the intergalactic bridge and the midway station are complete, you don't need a jumper. You just walk thru the wormhole.

When Mckay was describing how the intergalactic gate worked he did say it was only a "Jumper ride away." Which would indicate a ship of some sort is needed, the midway station seems to be in space as well which means no breathable air and I think they have to re dial there before they hit the milky way galaxy.

the old briar pipe
January 19th, 2007, 07:56 PM
When Mckay was describing how the intergalactic gate worked he did say it was only a "Jumper ride away." Which would indicate a ship of some sort is needed, the midway station seems to be in space as well which means no breathable air and I think they have to re dial there before they hit the milky way galaxy.

Last we heard, the station was not yet complete, i.e., yes, it's either open to space or closed but lacking breathable air/heating/something.

Is there even a plan to install DHDs in the station? Were the final rings taken from planets or space (which wouldn't have DHDs)? Ah, guess I should take this to the tech forum. :o

As for Sunday, I think everything was done for an eye to dramatic effect. The details are left to the viewer's imaginations. :rolleyes:

Alipeeps
January 19th, 2007, 09:00 PM
If the intergalactic bridge and the midway station are complete, you don't need a jumper. You just walk thru the wormhole.

I would imagine the intergalactic bridge would end at the Alpha sites on both ends though. For security reasons, you wouldn't want to point right at Atlantis and Earth directly, although for defense reasons, maybe you would. There are shields at both 'Gates. I wonder how that's going to end up.

As of the episode Echoes, the midway station is still not complete - therefore still open to vacuum and you need a jumper to use the gate bridge. However, the SGC does have a jumper... the one Sheppard and co stole to return to Atlantis in The Return Part I - and which O'Neill presumably returned to the SGC at the end of The Return Part 2 (telling Elizabeth he would be taking "a jumper ride back to the SGC").

twinchaosblade
January 19th, 2007, 09:22 PM
One point that *really* bothered me while reading this thread: I read a few comments about that 'best friends' bit that Rodney told Carson in the end and was completely shocked that anyone would *doubt* this. What is so hard to believe that Rodney considered Carson 'best friend'? I've always perceived Rodney and Carson as best buddies although the writers seldomly ever let it blossom on screen. Just their chemistry in the scenes together was so obviously portraying what a deep friendship the two of them shared, even if the writers denied Carson enough screen time to actually show it. Perhaps Paul's and David's real life friendship also rang through but from the pilot on I never doubted their being best friends. Surely, Rodney is also very close to Sheppard, which was and is heavily featured throughout the series, and I would even say I see the Rodney/Sheppard friendship slightly (and I emphasis *slightly*) above that between Carson/Rodney, but who says a man can't have two best buddies? And even with Beckett a close second, Rodney can still honestly say he was 'the closest thing to a best friend', that neither diminishes John's role in any way nor does it push aside Carson.

And then, for all those who still can't see my point, McKay just could have told Beckett the friendship bit as a kind of nice white lie, even if it wasn't entirely accurate, he didn't have to stretch the truth that far. After all, I suppose that at least Rodney was undoubtedly Carson's closest friend on Atlantis. You could interpret it then as a kind gesture 'on the death bed' of his friend Carson. It needn't be absolutely true, it could just have been meant as a comforting way to say goodbye at last. Especially since Rodney is so immensely guilt stricken (I'm sorry to add: and rightfully so!). That Carson died was not Rodney's fault but it was really mean and insulting of him to cancel his field trip with Beckett, more so because he must have known how much Carson was looking forward to this fishing trip and McKay never really had intended to go at all. This definitely hurt me to the core! Although I give him that, that Rodney certainly never meant to hurt Carson but was just unconsiderate of the fact that it did. Still, it doesn't hurt less when it's not on purpose...

The episode would have worked and had at least the same impact if Carson had actually survived. His death was not at all necessary, neither for the story nor for the show. The other characters would still have felt awfully guilty and the viewers wouldn't have felt the drama a bit less gripping than with Carson's untimely demise. The only reason for him to die was to get rid of the most wonderful character TPTB created when they launched SGA. What a shame, what a waste!

I am truly heartbroken! Unless they manage to bring him back, the show died for me the very second Carson did.
I haven't seen the episode yet (and probably won't be seeing it for a very long while), only snippets in the youtube vids and read the spoilers of course, but knowing of his ultimate fate bereaves me of all joy watching any episode, almost no matter whether he's in it or not. The ones without him I can't bear because I can't get out of my head that the character was treated very poorly and with absolute disrespect. (He was in 13 episodes of the third season; they so made him a regular!!!) And the other eps I momentarily can't bear to watch either because his death hurt so much, and that is all I can think of!
*sobbed for the last four days, still wonders how to ever dry my pillow*

Ever since the announcement of the changes, be it Jewel Staite coming in, Amanda Tapping heavily crossing over from SG-1, the demotion of Torri Higginson or the completely unnecessary disposal of a fantastic Paul McGillion, I have been very sceptical about the future of the show. Not only because I didn't like the changes one bit, but also because I feel they are turning Atlantis into a whole new show, that next season not only the credits change but that the original idea and concept of Atlantis as such will be beyond recognition, as if TPTB didn't have the patience to wait for the launch of the third spin-off to get their new ideas into the franchise.
But now, experiencing the huge effect this most beloved character's death has on me (and Dr Carson Beckett was right from the start my all time favourite fictional character ever), I don't think I could ever go on watching, the pain runs too deep...

I know I might sound a bit stupid and I usually stand with both feet firm on the ground and never let fictional things get mixed up with my real life, I can usually differentiate very well between fiction and actual life to keep a healthy distance but this time somehow the ensnaringly charming character of Carson Beckett really broke that boundary, which is probably not to a small proportion due to the exceptional performance of Paul McGillion that shines through. I literally and irrationally fell for Beckett the instant I first saw him, he really touched my soul. His kindness and warmth along with the seeming reality of the character really made me feel at home. He was able to restore in me the believe that good people with integrity actually have a chance of succeeding in life, of surviving, that being a sweet soul pays out in the matter of not always only getting fu++ed up by everybody because you are so easily taken advantage of.

Now TPTB killed that believe for me again, shoved me back to the cruel reality, where sensitive people are nothing but delusional. They showed me that in the last consequence kind and passionate people indeed don't stand a chance of survival. They are doomed just for having integrity and sticking to it!

Falcon Zero
January 19th, 2007, 09:42 PM
He was able to restore in me the believe that good people with integrity actually have a chance of succeeding in life, of surviving, that being a sweet soul pays out in the matter of not always only getting fu++ed up by everybody because you are so easily taken advantage of.

Good point, his character's personality has a lot to admire. Seeing the look on John's face during the funeral made it really hit home... he's never shown that kind of face before... :(

TechnoBoY
January 19th, 2007, 10:43 PM
I just finished watching the episode!

OMG! They killed him! I knew it would probably blow up, but I thought it would be like a Greys Anatomy and have him just injured. I am sad, I liked Carson.

Belamel
January 19th, 2007, 11:00 PM
One point that *really* bothered me while reading this thread: I read a few comments about that 'best friends' bit that Rodney told Carson in the end and was completely shocked that anyone would *doubt* this. What is so hard to believe that Rodney considered Carson 'best friend'? I've always perceived Rodney and Carson as best buddies although the writers seldomly ever let it blossom on screen. Just their chemistry in the scenes together was so obviously portraying what a deep friendship the two of them shared, even if the writers denied Carson enough screen time to actually show it. Perhaps Paul's and David's real life friendship also rang through but from the pilot on I never doubted their being best friends. Surely, Rodney is also very close to Sheppard, which was and is heavily featured throughout the series, and I would even say I see the Rodney/Sheppard friendship slightly (and I emphasis *slightly*) above that between Carson/Rodney, but who says a man can't have two best buddies? And even with Beckett a close second, Rodney can still honestly say he was 'the closest thing to a best friend', that neither diminishes John's role in any way nor does it push aside Carson.

Thank you for saying it, I've been thinking the same thing myself. I think the most important thing is to realize that you can have more than one best friend. When Rodney said the Carson was the closest thing to a best friend that he ever had, I'm sure that it exactly what he was feeling at the time. I believe that if it had been John who had died, Rodney would be thinking and saying the same thing about John. We always appreciate people more after they are gone.


I know I might sound a bit stupid and I usually stand with both feet firm on the ground and never let fictional things get mixed up with my real life, I can usually differentiate very well between fiction and actual life to keep a healthy distance but this time somehow the ensnaringly charming character of Carson Beckett really broke that boundary, which is probably not to a small proportion due to the exceptional performance of Paul McGillion that shines through. I literally and irrationally fell for Beckett the instant I first saw him, he really touched my soul. His kindness and warmth along with the seeming reality of the character really made me feel at home. He was able to restore in me the believe that good people with integrity actually have a chance of succeeding in life, of surviving, that being a sweet soul pays out in the matter of not always only getting fu++ed up by everybody because you are so easily taken advantage of.


I agree with you. I have never felt a character's loss this much. I generally keep a "healthy distance" myself. But the death of such a "sweet soul", a character that is so unique has given me pain. I don't need that much angst from my favorite shows (that's what fanfiction is for ;)).

starfox
January 19th, 2007, 11:18 PM
I've noticed people using spoiler tags in this thread. I'm not going to. This is the episode thread, it's the one place I can talk about an ep without using a tag every line. If you don't want to be spoiled, don't read this post.


I'm just going to ignore most of the posts previous to mine; I'd rather not upset myself by listening to the whining and b**ching which I must assume has been present.


I am, of course saddened by Carson's death. I trust that Paul McGillion had a good reason for leaving the show; it's not worth my sanity to believe otherwise right now. The way they showed the impact of his death was very well done in my opinion; I could practically feel it coming from Rodney. Teyla's insistence on standing (though I really wish wardrobe could have found her a more appropriate funeral outfit, or does the costume department forget that Teyla exists, too?), the look on John's face at the memorial, Ronon comforting Rodney, it all worked for me.

I disliked Weir's speech, but I tend to dislike all of her grand speeches. I don't think the writers have found a way to work with her in grand address mode.

I'm really annoyed that they couldn't find a better way to kill Carson than exploding tumors, but I'll live with that. They set it up well; allowing the audience members to connect the dots even before McKay made the reveal. This episode wasn't about the reveal, it was about personal relationships, and that part they did a really great job of showing.

McGillion was in fine form in this episode. He adorably enthusiastic and dorky about fishing, professional and sweet in the infirmary, and he followed his oath to the letter. Professional and caring to a fault. The Carson we all know and love.

I loved all of the team vignettes. The proof that Teyla has friends outside the team, the fact that Lorne's a painter, that Zelenka's a chess whiz, that John used to be married, the look on John's face when he and Ronon hit emotional territory, the fact that they're able to acknowledge the existence of homosexuality in the SGA-verse, Rodney's relationship with Katie, Rodney's dressing-down of his staff, Ronon's game, the fact that John's been golfing since age six...all of these made me ridiculously happy. My roommate walked in while I was watching this, and she commented on how happy I looked. I told her "I know one of my favorite characters is going to die, but I love this episode anyway." And it's true. I have nitpicks about the Beckett angle, but as a whole, I found this to be a really good episode. I especially loved the fact that everyone who could have stopped his death was a pall bearer. I don't blame them for not wanting to go fishing with him, but that little touch just made me so happy. I especially love that both Rodney and Radek said that they'd go fishing with him "next week." It's a great reminder that we don't always get "next week".


So, in short:

Things that I disliked about this ep
*Exploding tumors
*Weir's speech
*Weir's personal revelation (we already know she's too tied up in command to date; we couldn't get something else?)
*Teyla's memorial service attire

Things I liked about this ep
*Everything else



Highlights:
-Rodney looked and sounded like someone's father when he was dressing down the two science officers. The mix of "You could have been killed!!!!!" and "Just be careful next time, ok?" was perfect, and it showed his true concern for them.

-Teyla and Rodney and Carson's reactions to Elizabeth's date. Also, Liz calling "shut up" down the stairs to Carson. It's such a friend thing to do, as were all of their reactions to her. It's how you react to someone you know and love and are really going to enjoy teasing later.

-Sheppard backstory.

-Acknowledgement that there is such a thing as homosexuality in SGA-verse

-Zelenka and Lorne. Zelenka was adorable (David Nykl rocks my socks) and the revelation about Lorne was sweet, interesting, and unexpected. (Kavan Smith is also with the sock rocking).


There were a lot of things I liked about this episode, and a few that I didn't. But I squeed like the fangirl I am and some parts, and I was crying at the end. Any episode that can elicit both of those reactions from me deserves a thumbs up.

Farewell, Carson. It was nice knowing you.

meredithchandler73
January 19th, 2007, 11:33 PM
Wow. Just wow. This episode blew me away. Mike is a HOTTIE, and must return. And John finally wearing dress blues? YUM.

I'll copy here what I said in my LJ report:

That episode blew me away for so many reasons - some wonderfully humorous scenes, balanced out by the terrible sadness in the end. I'm SO sad to see Carson going... although that ending scene was very vague, considering the possibility of ascension. But I think that the funeral scene and the goodbye between Carson and Rodney were SO beautifully done. Incredibly touching - it didn't feel at all trite or hurried.

On a ship front, this episode was chock full of it. I'll say it: I'm a Elizabeth/Mike shipper. I thought they were absolutely adorable together. Mike is adorkable, and Lizzie looked like she was about to melt into a puddle of blushing goo around him. :P So now I'm left wondering... will they stay together? He was pretty good at talking her into things. ;) Rodney/Katie... SO sweet! I love how they babysat her plants together, and how they had a chance to talk through issues, and for Rodney to admit that he likes her so much, and to be honest and open with her. And, yes, I will say it - I am a Sheppard/Weir fan, but the Shep/Teyla stuff was VERY well done. They were cute and flirty and caring - it didn't feel forced at ALL. If it were written that well all the time, I could totally go along with it.

And friendships in general were developed - some great girly scenes between Elizabeth and Teyla (Teyla was SO pushing for Liz to go out on that not-a-date ;)), cute teasing between Elizabeth and Carson ("You smell nice, too!" "Shut uuuup!" :D) some nice bonding between Shep and Ronon, and of course, the Rodney/Carson interaction that just made the ending so powerful. It felt like Rodney's losing Carson so suddenly really carried a message - don't put off the time you could be spending with the people you care about, because you never know what might happen.

Just so much character development all around - learning that Lorne is a painter, that Zelenka kicks everyone's ass at chess and collects the spoils, that Dr. Biro is just... weird. :P I loved it!

All in all, an absolutely fantastic episode, ranking up there among the best.



More good moments that I would mention even if Beckett hadn't been killed:
- Teyla having a crush on someone (*who?*) but too afraid/PC to ask him


OMG! I *loved* this episode. I ditto most of the stuff I quoted above. Some other thoughts:
--I liked that it isn't definite who Teyla has a crush on. The only clue we get is that Houghton says, "Well, you know him better than I do." and Teyla says, "I should hope so." But still, that doesn't point at only one guy.
--Elizabeth was totally adorable. As Torri put it in one of her interviews, she got to "be a girl" in this episode. And I liked Mike a lot. Anyone else think he looks like a studly version of Noah Wyle? Maybe it's just me...
--Elizabeth thinks men and women can't be friends?!?! Oh, and I can't comment on the comparison of "When Harry Met Sally" to "Annie Hall" because I've never seen "Annie Hall".
--Loved all the John/Ronan interaction and I like that John knows Ronan once had a wife (close enough) and he isn't ready to date. Ronan thinks that John and Teyla would be good together.
--One of the very few things I wasn't crazy about in this episode - John was married?!?! SERIOUSLY!?!?! I just can't imagine it.
--How could you not love Rodney with bedhead?
--Rodney noticing Elizabeth having lunch with Mike. :)
--Rodney and Katie. They were really cute together! I hope to see a bit more of that relationship in the future.
--Carson's memorial was just perfect. And I loved his "goodbye" to Rodney at the end.

For the record, I don't really support any particular ship. I like the chemistry that exists between all the characters just as they are.

Mitchell82
January 19th, 2007, 11:48 PM
I've noticed people using spoiler tags in this thread. I'm not going to. This is the episode thread, it's the one place I can talk about an ep without using a tag every line. If you don't want to be spoiled, don't read this post.


I'm just going to ignore most of the posts previous to mine; I'd rather not upset myself by listening to the whining and b**ching which I must assume has been present.


I am, of course saddened by Carson's death. I trust that Paul McGillion had a good reason for leaving the show; it's not worth my sanity to believe otherwise right now. The way they showed the impact of his death was very well done in my opinion; I could practically feel it coming from Rodney. Teyla's insistence on standing (though I really wish wardrobe could have found her a more appropriate funeral outfit, or does the costume department forget that Teyla exists, too?), the look on John's face at the memorial, Ronon comforting Rodney, it all worked for me.

I disliked Weir's speech, but I tend to dislike all of her grand speeches. I don't think the writers have found a way to work with her in grand address mode.

I'm really annoyed that they couldn't find a better way to kill Carson than exploding tumors, but I'll live with that. They set it up well; allowing the audience members to connect the dots even before McKay made the reveal. This episode wasn't about the reveal, it was about personal relationships, and that part they did a really great job of showing.

McGillion was in fine form in this episode. He adorably enthusiastic and dorky about fishing, professional and sweet in the infirmary, and he followed his oath to the letter. Professional and caring to a fault. The Carson we all know and love.

I loved all of the team vignettes. The proof that Teyla has friends outside the team, the fact that Lorne's a painter, that Zelenka's a chess whiz, that John used to be married, the look on John's face when he and Ronon hit emotional territory, the fact that they're able to acknowledge the existence of homosexuality in the SGA-verse, Rodney's relationship with Katie, Rodney's dressing-down of his staff, Ronon's game, the fact that John's been golfing since age six...all of these made me ridiculously happy. My roommate walked in while I was watching this, and she commented on how happy I looked. I told her "I know one of my favorite characters is going to die, but I love this episode anyway." And it's true. I have nitpicks about the Beckett angle, but as a whole, I found this to be a really good episode. I especially loved the fact that everyone who could have stopped his death was a pall bearer. I don't blame them for not wanting to go fishing with him, but that little touch just made me so happy. I especially love that both Rodney and Radek said that they'd go fishing with him "next week." It's a great reminder that we don't always get "next week".


So, in short:

Things that I disliked about this ep
*Exploding tumors
*Weir's speech
*Weir's personal revelation (we already know she's too tied up in command to date; we couldn't get something else?)
*Teyla's memorial service attireThings I liked about this ep
*Everything else



Highlights:
-Rodney looked and sounded like someone's father when he was dressing down the two science officers. The mix of "You could have been killed!!!!!" and "Just be careful next time, ok?" was perfect, and it showed his true concern for them.

-Teyla and Rodney and Carson's reactions to Elizabeth's date. Also, Liz calling "shut up" down the stairs to Carson. It's such a friend thing to do, as were all of their reactions to her. It's how you react to someone you know and love and are really going to enjoy teasing later.

-Sheppard backstory.

-Acknowledgement that there is such a thing as homosexuality in SGA-verse

-Zelenka and Lorne. Zelenka was adorable (David Nykl rocks my socks) and the revelation about Lorne was sweet, interesting, and unexpected. (Kavan Smith is also with the sock rocking).


There were a lot of things I liked about this episode, and a few that I didn't. But I squeed like the fangirl I am and some parts, and I was crying at the end. Any episode that can elicit both of those reactions from me deserves a thumbs up.

Farewell, Carson. It was nice knowing you.

I agree with everything you said except what I higlighted. I actually felt Weirs speech was heartwarming and sincere. I thought she did a great job. I actually liked tehe personall revelation and her uneasyness. She was very uncomfortable with dating in particular after loosing her fiance. I didn't mind Teyla's attire b/c for her people that is appropriate. I definatly agree on eveything else especially John's reaction. It is often very hard for a military officer to show his feelings. I will miss Carson but I am very happy with the way his leaving was handled on screen.

starfox
January 20th, 2007, 12:16 AM
I agree with everything you said except what I higlighted. I actually felt Weirs speech was heartwarming and sincere. I thought she did a great job. I actually liked tehe personall revelation and her uneasyness. She was very uncomfortable with dating in particular after loosing her fiance. I didn't mind Teyla's attire b/c for her people that is appropriate. I definatly agree on eveything else especially John's reaction. It is often very hard for a military officer to show his feelings. I will miss Carson but I am very happy with the way his leaving was handled on screen.

It wasn't that I disliked seeing Elizabeth uncomfortable with the prospect of dating, it was more that I felt like the personal revelation we were getting was about her professionalism. Which, for me, at least, is something we could have guessed from previous actions. I think it was telling that was Elizabeth does on her day off is work.

Maybe I've spent too much time in fandom/fanfiction, where everyone assumes that Elizabeth is a workaholic who refuses romantic involvement. But I couldn't help but want more.

Or maybe the writers are just sneaky like ninjas, and the revelation about Elizabeth is that she doesn't reveal too much.


Also, because I didn't say this in my earlier post,

Martin Gero, you are amazing!!!!!!!

Jwizzman
January 20th, 2007, 03:34 AM
sad episode, I guess they'll find a way to bring him back somehow

leelakin
January 20th, 2007, 04:22 AM
I trust that Paul McGillion had a good reason for leaving the show; it's not worth my sanity to believe otherwise right now.

There's no reason to believe that he wanted out, more the opposite. In fact, he said in an interview before filming season 3 "Hopefully I won't be killed off."

rovex
January 20th, 2007, 05:54 AM
Only the second Stargate episode to make me cry. This seres may not have the emotional depth of Battlestar on a continuous level, but when it does emotion like this its awesome.
Fairwell Carson, you will be missed..

TJuk
January 20th, 2007, 06:02 AM
Did anyone else notice the fact Rodney says we've sent *A* body back not HIS or THE body. I highly doubt they would muck that up or not catch the mistake. So that gives me SOME hope.

And as Leeakin says, as far as we know Paul DID NOT want to leave the show. This is a message from the Official Paul McGillion Website (http://www.paulmcgillion.com)


"....I am truley overwhelmed by the support that is happening for 'Carson Beckett'. Although I can not comment on the situation at this time, please know that I have had the time of my life working on 'Atlantis' and would embrace the chance to keep the good Doctor around! Lots of Luv
Paul"

I am NOT happy with Paul's dropping from the main cast and his character's death ESPECIALLY in light they have simply replaced him and N. John Smith's reassurances he would only 'disappear' which at the present moment in time appears to have been...misleading to say the very least.

www.savecarsonbeckett.com (http://www.savecarsonbeckett.com)

P-90_177
January 20th, 2007, 06:15 AM
Just a little thing here but did anyone else notice that there was no mention of all the other people who died in that episode? or did they have their memorial service at the same as becketts and did them one after the other? In which case it was a bit stupid opening the gate seperately for each one when they couldn't have used the gate bridge.
Also wouldn't it have been better to have cadman in the episode somewhere. especially at the memorial. i supose she could be on earth for some reason or the deadalus but still. i would have liked some acknowledgement of the relationship between her and carson.

Nel
January 20th, 2007, 06:30 AM
Just a little thing here but did anyone else notice that there was no mention of all the other people who died in that episode? or did they have their memorial service at the same as becketts and did them one after the other? In which case it was a bit stupid opening the gate seperately for each one when they couldn't have used the gate bridge.
Also wouldn't it have been better to have cadman in the episode somewhere. especially at the memorial. i supose she could be on earth for some reason or the deadalus but still. i would have liked some acknowledgement of the relationship between her and carson.


At the beginning of her speech at Carson's memorial Weir said we have lost a lot of friends today (or something like that).

Also in the Return (part 1) Carson said things hadn't worked out between him and Cadman.

Teddybear
January 20th, 2007, 06:32 AM
Ever since the announcement of the changes, be it Jewel Staite coming in, Amanda Tapping heavily crossing over from SG-1, the demotion of Torri Higginson or the completely unnecessary disposal of a fantastic Paul McGillion, I have been very sceptical about the future of the show. Not only because I didn't like the changes one bit, but also because I feel they are turning Atlantis into a whole new show, that next season not only the credits change but that the original idea and concept of Atlantis as such will be beyond recognition, as if TPTB didn't have the patience to wait for the launch of the third spin-off to get their new ideas into the franchise.
But now, experiencing the huge effect this most beloved character's death has on me (and Dr Carson Beckett was right from the start my all time favourite fictional character ever), I don't think I could ever go on watching, the pain runs too deep...

!

I agree with you about your concern for the future of the show.
One main reason I started to watch the show when I discovered it randomly on TV , was because I immediatly liked the characters and the team they were going to be. It's always interesting to see improbable friendships growing up , and I was also attracted by the quality of the actors . So now , they are going little by little to delete what they have built . I'm sad , and I'm also a little angry when I see that characters from SG1 are going to come . Personally , I don't watch SG1 anymore , since the 5th season .

Alipeeps
January 20th, 2007, 06:48 AM
Thank you for saying it, I've been thinking the same thing myself. I think the most important thing is to realize that you can have more than one best friend. When Rodney said the Carson was the closest thing to a best friend that he ever had, I'm sure that it exactly what he was feeling at the time. I believe that if it had been John who had died, Rodney would be thinking and saying the same thing about John. We always appreciate people more after they are gone.


That's a very good point. Thanks for that.



I'm just going to ignore most of the posts previous to mine; I'd rather not upset myself by listening to the whining and b**ching which I must assume has been present.

That's actually really quite rude of you - I'm not saying you have to read the entire thread before posting but if you don't, then don't presume to know what people have said and make snide comments about it. There's actually been a lot of interesting discussion in here - but you woulnd't know that, because you're rather "assume" that everyone else in here is just whining.


Did anyone else notice the fact Rodney says we've sent *A* body back not HIS or THE body. I highly doubt they would muck that up or not catch the mistake. So that gives me SOME hope.

No, he didn't. He said, "We're going to send, uh... the body back.."

He paused in the middle of his sentence and the a/uh sound was him struggling to find the words.... :(


I am NOT happy with Paul's dropping from the main cast and his character's death ESPECIALLY in light they have simply replaced him and N. John Smith's reassurances he would only 'disappear' which at the present moment in time appears to have been...misleading to say the very least.

No-one ever said he would "only disappear".... at the time of John Smith's comment the rumours of Carson being cut from the show were flying and he attempted to respond to those rumours.. without giving too much away. he was hardly going to tell everyone, "Yes, Carson dies before the end of the season" so he gave us a hint, telling us he would "disappear". Yes, it was a euphemism but it was not intended to be a definitive statement of exactly what would happen (I doubt anyone thought he was suggesting that Carson was going to become invisible, for example?) and, toghether with his comment that they might try and bring Paul back, possibly as a different character, thought it was fairly clear that whatever was going to happen meant that the character of Carson was not coming back.

Blitz
January 20th, 2007, 06:50 AM
Just watched the ep....

...I got tears running! *blush*

Twas a GREAT episode and I think they handled it REALLY well.

Especially the bagpipes at the end *made me cry a lil bit more*

The end was a bit strange

Is beckett still alive somehow? was it Mckays guilt manifesting?

*ponders and tears*

Southern Red
January 20th, 2007, 08:16 AM
This seems to be the official "be careful what you wish for" episode. The fans wanted character development, off-duty moments, and character bonding. Looks like they got it plus a bit more. ;)

The good as I see it:
- Rodney/Katie. How sweet. She likes him in spite of the facade he puts on.
- Teyla has other friends outside the team. She came across as the most socially adept person in the whole thing. Maybe she can help the boys branch out more.
- John's concern for Elizabeth when he encouraged Teyla to keep their lunch date. Sparky is probably not going to happen, but in my deluded shipper state ;) I still think he has a soft spot for her.
- John/Ronon playing games. What a couple of guys. Just the laugh we needed.
- All the Carson moments. He was a truly lovely man and will be sorely missed.
- Elizabeth's speech. Heartfelt and perfect.
- The funeral. Simple and with dignity.
- Everyone's faces at the funeral. I'm sure this didn't involve much acting. After all, they've also lost a good friend.
- Rodney/Carson at the end. I ran out of tissues.

The less than perfect:
- Mike. The idea of a young guy with a crush on Elizabeth doesn't bother me. After all...it's Elizabeth, but this one was too scruffy for my taste and a little too familiar. Now if his purpose was to help her realize who she really does want to be with, then okay. :D
- John/Ronon dating convo. Too slumber party and way too many dangling ships.
- Teyla's funeral outfit. I thought that dress from Critical Mass was the Athosian funeral attire. :confused: And considering that she just had major surgery on her side, Carson must have used a really small bandage.
- exploding tumors...WTF?

So it looks like IMO that we got a big fat delete on all the ships. If you take what was said at face value without benefit of your own personal prejudice, you have to say we still know next to nothing about who likes whom. Who said they weren't teasing shippers? Please.

They made me cry and they ticked me off. So I guess they would call it a success.

Night Spring
January 20th, 2007, 08:33 AM
Who said they weren't teasing shippers?
Heh.


They made me cry and they ticked me off. So I guess they would call it a success.
That they would. booo.

Sweetsong
January 20th, 2007, 10:24 AM
The less than perfect:
- Teyla's funeral outfit. I thought that dress from Critical Mass was the Athosian funeral attire. :confused: And considering that she just had major surgery on her side, Carson must have used a really small bandage.

From what I remember of this episode, it was more like a funeral tradition dress, the tradition being when someone dies of old age and not by the hands of the wraith, which wasn't the case with Carson. Also maybe it's a dress only worn for the Athosian people.

Diesel Vanilla
January 20th, 2007, 01:05 PM
I've seen Sunday. I really enjoyed most of it! Great team dynamic. Great tension and drama throughout. Many people have already stated the good bits, and as I'm not feeling particularly elloquent tonight I'll just say, yup... I agree. :)

However, I'm absolutely gutted that they killed Carson off. His role and his interactions with the other characters were really central to my viewing of SGA. I appreciate not everyone feels the same way. yeah, there are plenty of great characters left but what was wrong with him? pfffffffff... *sigh* I'm baffled as to why they would want to kill him off... and pretty flippin' miserable about it too. :(

Diesel Vanilla
January 20th, 2007, 01:14 PM
I thought the memorial was weird too.

In 'Fire and Ice'...
Daniel had a longer, more emotional send off and he came back 20 minutes later!!!

Pfrt.

stargazr
January 20th, 2007, 01:56 PM
I usually don't post here, so hang w/ me for a bit.

I'm annoyed by the fact that so many people said the Rodney/Carson BFF was a surprise. They have been friends since before Rising. Just because they are not together every waking minute does not mean they aren't friends. They are there for each other when needed and no matter the amount of teasing, they come back to that base friendship (see Phantoms, ToR, Rising, etc). That's the thing about a close friend- they will always be there.

Do I believe Carson's death was pointless, no. The whole point is that he died doing the thing he believed in, saving people. Did I need to see the fireball consume him, also no. Do I love and adore Carson/Paul- hell yes. I think the idea was that death often comes with no warning, we don't get the chance to say goodbye. So carpe diem kids (did I really need SGA to tell me that- no).

How can you have a show that constantly places characters in impending doom and not kill someone off? Plus, Gero wrote it, so at least five people had to die. I think it angers people because we were so invested in Carson (at least I was). If we go into the next three eps w/ no mention of the much beloved doc, I'll get annoyed. Obvious progression of grief for the other characters would make for great drama. They can always reminisce about him over a good firefight w/ rogue Genii. ;) Do not forget the man is all I'm saying.

Now on to the rest of the ep:

-I loved the visuals. The shots of the city were fantastic. And we got to see so much more of it than before.
-Getting to see more than just the main cast was great. But will we ever see Mike Branton again ;)
-Oh my god, Teyla smiled and laughed! And she has friends? who knew. Of course the poor Dr Houston was then blown up. Yep, figures.
-Ronon's Satedan game had me rolling. Hilarious. :D
-Did anyone else notice that Carson popped in on everyone else? No anger, no annoyance that no one wanted to fish, just Carson's usual acceptance and understanding.
-DH was great, and Ronon checking on Rodney was a perfect tie-in to events of the past eps.
-Shep and Teyla in the infirmary, so sweet and sad. Wouldn't it be great if we saw it "hit" Shep?
-I can't comment on the memorial as I was too busy crying to watch :(

All in all, fantastic ep. No I don't want Carson gone (I'm sticking by my theory that this Carson was a Replicator or he was beamed up by the Wraith at the last second-it's scifi, anything is possible). Funny, mostly well-written, the sad was not cheesy and the acting was spot on.
It's only my opinion.
s

A.L.
January 20th, 2007, 02:32 PM
I haven't seen the epi yet and from all I've read I don't want to. This seems to me yet another bad decision by TPTB in a very fast a long line of bad decisions that include replacing Carson with some new chick, bringing Sam over to Atlantis and cuttting out Elizabeth.

At this rate I would be highly shocked if they make it all the way thorugh season 4 let alone onto season 5. Maybe they won't even get to Season 4.

It's JAG all over again, taking a perfectly good show, throwing it into a blender and tossing it back to the fans with wide smiles saying "What do ya think? Tastey?"

Please. I get the feeling come March I'm going to be grateful to TPTB for saving me a little money and time by causing me to finally stop watching all TV all together (Atlantis is the last of all the shows I've ever watched still on) and not buy any more DVDs for this show.

Time will tell.

AL

scarimor
January 20th, 2007, 03:12 PM
*WAIL* :sheppardanime32:

They killed another lovely doctor!

But a very well done episode. Beautiful final image of Atlantis, too.

prion
January 20th, 2007, 04:24 PM
Just a little thing here but did anyone else notice that there was no mention of all the other people who died in that episode? or did they have their memorial service at the same as becketts and did them one after the other? In which case it was a bit stupid opening the gate seperately for each one when they couldn't have used the gate bridge.
Also wouldn't it have been better to have cadman in the episode somewhere. especially at the memorial. i supose she could be on earth for some reason or the deadalus but still. i would have liked some acknowledgement of the relationship between her and carson.

I almost get the feeling there was another memorial service for the others... that they might have been sent home already, or perhaps he was being done first. It's hard to tell.

As for Cadman, I got the drift from "Return part 2" that since Beckett and her broke up, that maybe she was no longer on Atlantis.

Oh someone mentioned Teyla's attire. Well, obviously not the traditional send-off attire (thinking back to Charin's death), and yeah, well, small bandage, but with laprascopic surgery, hey, incisions aren't that big...

Falcon Horus
January 20th, 2007, 04:27 PM
:eek:

I just watched Sunday and oh my goddess...it rocked!! Absolutely one of my all-time favorite Atlantis episodes.

For the first time since Echoes I was enjoying the episode from start till end. I was on the edge of my seat every time we got to see more and more of what was going on.

I loved the wonderful touches, what everybody who had a day off (Heightmeyer's idea -> who else but she would come with an idea like that? :p) was doing. And I loved the way the episode was composed, those hours earlier were really fun. I thought it was gonna be separate stories up until the explosion, but this was so much better.

And oh my, Carson's send-off. I normally don't tear up watching TV or a movie, but boy I had to swallow a couple times there. I'm gonna miss Carson. He was absolutely fabulous in Sunday. I'm hoping he'll be back some day.
And his dying-part, well... I have to say that even if I was spoiled my mind was still saying 'Oh look, he got the box to the guy he's going to be safe ... bang!' :eek: 'CARSON!'

I really, really enjoyed this and I'll be watching this again ... most definitely.

Falcon Zero
January 20th, 2007, 05:53 PM
Beautiful final image of Atlantis, too.

Truly it was, very touching. In a way it was nice to see the scale of the pier against a person too.

Willow'sCat
January 20th, 2007, 05:55 PM
Highlights:
-Rodney looked and sounded like someone's father when he was dressing down the two science officers. The mix of "You could have been killed!!!!!" and "Just be careful next time, ok?" was perfect, and it showed his true concern for them.I felt the "Dad" McKay coming through there too and it made me laugh even the response by the female by saying you did the same thing last week was spot on, it really was "Father knows best". :D


-Acknowledgement that there is such a thing as homosexuality in SGA-verseWell I think it has been acknowledged on SG-1 (although only through some weird ass comments from Jack) but it is better then nothing, which is pretty much what we can expect from now on... eg more of the last 2 half years of denial.

Although one thing has been bothering me, I know Ronon is not US military but of course John is and he is the Leader of said Military in Atlantis so where the heck did DADT go???? :cool: Should John have even been asking or referring to "a man" at all? Yes I know it is a show and no John never struck me as by the book, but still people get thrown out of the US military for admitting to being gay every dam day! :rolleyes: I just think it was an odd thing for John to ask given how homophobic some of the US military rules are. ;)

Night Spring
January 20th, 2007, 06:46 PM
Although one thing has been bothering me, I know Ronon is not US military but of course John is and he is the Leader of said Military in Atlantis so where the heck did DADT go???? :cool: Should John have even been asking or referring to "a man" at all? Yes I know it is a show and no John never struck me as by the book, but still people get thrown out of the US military for admitting to being gay every dam day! :rolleyes: I just think it was an odd thing for John to ask given how homophobic some of the US military rules are. ;)
I don't think there are any rules saying people in the US military can't associate with homosexuals, just that they aren't supposed to participate in homosexual acts themselves. Since Ronon isn't US military, it's not against regs for John to ask him if he's homosexual. Come to think of it, he could also ask Rodney, Teyla, Elizabeth, or Radek if they were homosexual. He cannot, however, ask Lorne -- that's where the "don't ask" part of DADT kicks in.

Major Tyler
January 20th, 2007, 11:42 PM
Actually, the rules say that homosexuals are allowed in the military just so long as they in no way associate themselves with the military while being a know homosexual. I know it sounds odd, but it basically means that "when you're being gay, don't be military-like," and "when you're on-duty, don't be gay-like."

Also, they aren't actively searching for gays, so even if you get "caught," most people will just pretend they didn't see. I have a couple of friends in the Air Force and their COs know full-well that's they're gay, but don't really care. It's one of those rules that, as a practical matter, are rarely enforced.

Funny story, I asked my friend if his (female) Captain knew he was gay and he said, "Sure, I told her at she and her girlfriend's commitment ceremony." :P

P.S. Openly homosexual civilians are allowed to work for the military anyway, so Ronon can be as gay as the day is long and it wouldn't matter.

Mitchell82
January 20th, 2007, 11:49 PM
I just rewatched this ep and it hit me even more this time. Carson was supurb in his last ep and I am truly sad he's gone but I am happy with how it was done. Martin Gero indedd pulled off a great one. I sure hope they find a way to 'resurrect" carson.

FallenAngelII
January 21st, 2007, 01:09 AM
Yes! They fixed the thread titles (due to my urging :P)! Finally the... people going "It's out of sync!" no longer have any Gateworld "proof" to reference.

PegasusPrincess
January 21st, 2007, 03:45 AM
The episode would have worked and had at least the same impact if Carson had actually survived. His death was not at all necessary, neither for the story nor for the show. The other characters would still have felt awfully guilty and the viewers wouldn't have felt the drama a bit less gripping than with Carson's untimely demise. The only reason for him to die was to get rid of the most wonderful character TPTB created when they launched SGA. What a shame, what a waste!

I am truly heartbroken! Unless they manage to bring him back, the show died for me the very second Carson did.


Just finished watching the ep earlier. Knew it was coming, but didn;t really want to believe it.
I'm so upset by this that I really can't articulate my thoughts/feelings about this myself....what you said is roughly about what I'd say (if I wasn't so upset & angry).
Between losing SG1 & all the cast changes on the show, I'm really not certain if I'll continue with this franchise at all....over 10 years, we've put up with alot, but it's starting to get intolerable.
I'll probably get over it by next week, but for now....I just don't know anymore....... :(

Diesel Vanilla
January 21st, 2007, 04:03 AM
:eek:

And his dying-part, well... I have to say that even if I was spoiled my mind was still saying 'Oh look, he got the box to the guy he's going to be safe ... bang!' :eek: 'CARSON!'



Heheheheh, LOL! I had to quote that because I was exactly the same! I couldn't figure out when it was going to go boom and when he turned around from giving it to the bomb guy a little part of me thought (hoped) 'naaah, it's not really gonna happen... it's just a wind-up!'. And then when it did go boom I physically jumped!!!!

shockwave
January 21st, 2007, 04:03 AM
a better episode then usual, but its unfortunate that carson is dead

the show has been struggling since season 2, and his been better in season 3.0. But season 3.5 isn't very good. I don't think carson's death will help the show. Him being replaced someone 24 years old seems silly. Carson was one of the more sympathetic sga characters. And that ending with McKay, was that a hallucination?

Psyku
January 21st, 2007, 04:06 AM
all though it's a shame that carson got killed. if they where to bring him back for guest roles. for if the fans want him back so badly.

i'll guess they will make him an ancient and he just messed with us all the time when he was human.

but that's my theory =P

meredithchandler73
January 21st, 2007, 06:36 AM
As sad as I am to have Carson killed off, I thought this was an amazing episode. I loved the character interaction and learning various things about them. Zalenka is a badass at chess! Lorne paints! Shep was married?!? Okay - that last one kind of threw me for a loop. I really can't picture him as having been married but...oh well.

I thought Elizabeth and Mike were *very* cute together. She was so cute being somewhat flustered by the whole thing. And the various reactions by everyone else were so great - Teyla's obvious delight that Elizabeth was breaking their lunch date to go out with this guy; Carson's gentle ribbing about a hot date and the "You smell good, too!" "Shut uuuuup!" was priceless; Rodney even took notice of her lunch date. All very nice.

I liked how Teyla's friend (Houston?) was trying to get her to ask a guy out. I'm glad that it's never specified who the guy is. The only clue we get is that Houston says, "Well, you know him better than I do." And Teyla answers, "Well, I would hope so." Narrows it down a bit, but still... :)

Ronan and John just being a couple of guys was fun. The game Ronan wanted to play was a lot of fun. And they just end up talking and drinking beer. As at least one other person has mentioned, I liked the acknowledgment that homosexuality exists (when they were talking about dating). But...Shep was married?!?!?

Rodney and Katie were really nice together. She didn't get to do much in her first appearance except be totally confused by Rodney (Duet), so it was great to bring her back.

Rodney having to scold the two scientists in the middle of the night was really fun. Someone else posted that he was like a parent, "You could have been killed! Awww...okay, just don't do it again." Right on. But it still had the Rodney spin on it. "Yeah, I know I turn on devices that we know nothing about all the time, but I can save myself. When you do it, I have to save YOU!" Hilarious. And loved his bedhead hair.

This episode reminded me a bit of SG-1's Heroes in the sense that:
there were some nice Janet Frasier moments that we hadn't seen much of - her interaction with the documentary maker and their meal together - stuff that remind you how much you really like the character, and then she dies. :(

I knew that Carson was going to die in this episode. Am I the only one that cringed when he took the container with the tumor and said, "I'll be right back"? It seriously hurt my heart a little 'cuz I knew what was coming and everyone knows that line is the kiss of death!

It was a lovely ending - everyone's reactions, the funeral, and most especially, the last bit between Rodney and Carson. Lots of tears.

ShadowMaat
January 21st, 2007, 06:54 AM
Yes! They fixed the thread titles (due to my urging :P)! Finally the... people going "It's out of sync!" no longer have any Gateworld "proof" to reference.

Oh gee, thank goodness. I was losing so much sleep over that; it was unbearably stressful to know that a frakkin' number was off. :rolleyes:

How reassuring to know we have someone who will incessantly nag, harass, beleaguer, attack, scream and rage at the mods and everyone around them in order to get such a ridiculous thing fixed. [/sarcasm]

At least we don't have to put up with that BS anymore.

Anyway, as for REAL content...

What do you think the chances are of us ever seeing Mike again? 'cos as great as I thought his scenes were and in spite of the good chemistry I felt... I can't really see TPTB keeping him around. Traditionally (and TPTB are obsessed with Tradition) a lead character like Weir- if she ever gets involved with anyone- gets involved with another lead character. Which is a pity when there are so many other great characters on the show and potentially great characters in the background/offscreen.

Of course, it could be entirely moot, depending on what they have planned for Weir. Irony of ironies if Mike sticks around but Weir's the one we never see again.

Loki78
January 21st, 2007, 07:54 AM
I just finished watching the (SGA) eps. 'Sunday' and am very sad (and even cried) for Carson died and he was one of my favorite characters of SGA! :( I also read somewhere Weir might be leaving the series, I wouldn't mind that, I liked the blond version of Weir, the actress that only did one show as her better, this actress is too stiff to my liking anyway, but I will miss our Scotisch friend very much, for I have a very special connection with Scotland and he represented that on this series... :(

Nolamom
January 21st, 2007, 08:55 AM
You need to post SPOILER WARNING in your thread title. Also, there are threads for Sunday already.

ShadowMaat
January 21st, 2007, 08:58 AM
You need to post SPOILER WARNING in your thread title. Also, there are threads for Sunday already.

While the situation has been remedied, Nola's post is still highly relevant. Anyone NOT posting directly in an episode discussion thread had bloody well better make sure that all due spoiler warnings are implemented. Some spoiler tags would not be remiss, either.

Read, understand and OBEY the rules of the forum before you post ANYTHING.

Loki78
January 21st, 2007, 10:25 AM
Yes, I am a n00b and did not know all of this and I am also chronically fatigued, so I did not read all the rules yes, also I could not find my way through the bush that is all the forumthreads and did not find the right place to put my thread in (English is only my second language)... I will refrain from posting on these forums in the future, for it is to complicated for me, I just wanted to share my feelings... :(

ShadowMaat
January 21st, 2007, 11:40 AM
There's nothing wrong with sharing your feelings as long as you understand how to share them. There's a time and a place for everything... and if something is out of place and at the wrong time it can make it messy for other people, that's all.

Adria
January 21st, 2007, 11:47 AM
I liked this episode it didn't really hit me that carson died until the end with the music and the main cast bring him through the gate ...i started to cry :(

jeterfan
January 21st, 2007, 12:21 PM
Yes, I am a n00b and did not know all of this and I am also chronically fatigued,
speaking of chronically fatigued, I am in a world of hurt at work today since I stayed up all night! >sigh< Gateworld is such a waste of time...but it's fun. g'night y'all, going to get 2 hours of sleep...


You need to post SPOILER WARNING in your thread title. Also, there are threads for Sunday already.

Hang on...Before I go, does ANYONE browsing Gateworld forums NOT know about Carson? I mean, excluding blind people and small puppies?? Spoilers are everywhere before you even reach inside the thread, including....


There's nothing wrong with sharing your feelings as long as you understand how to share them. There's a time and a place for everything... and if something is out of place and at the wrong time it can make it messy for other people, that's all.

...in ShadowMaat's sig ("They came for Ford, they came for Carson, they came for Weir...") This entire thread is already chock full of spoilers waaay before Loki78 arrived. Don't feel badly, Loki, the precedent was set before you got here!

Teylarrific
January 21st, 2007, 12:34 PM
You are Carson, responsible for saving the lives of a number of the main characters. You love fishing. You go around asking a few people if they'd want to go fishing with you. They all turn you down . Then when you die they do a big hoopla about it. Would I want friends like that ?
If someone ever saved my life I'd put up (hehe that's a good one ) with going fishing once in a half moon with him. BTW totally dug how fishing was handled on SG-1 .Nevermind. Rip :beckett: .

prion
January 21st, 2007, 12:54 PM
Although one thing has been bothering me, I know Ronon is not US military but of course John is and he is the Leader of said Military in Atlantis so where the heck did DADT go???? :cool: Should John have even been asking or referring to "a man" at all? Yes I know it is a show and no John never struck me as by the book, but still people get thrown out of the US military for admitting to being gay every dam day! :rolleyes: I just think it was an odd thing for John to ask given how homophobic some of the US military rules are. ;)

Uh, those were two friends just shooting the breeze and I just snorted at that question because Sheppard probably realizes how little he really knows about Ronon, and this IS an entirely different galaxy which has different religions/beliefs/practices. I saw the remark as something the writers just slip in for humor (or to tease slash fans, who knows?) and since Ronon isn't in the U.S. military, there's no rules against asking the question. Heck, Shep could easily have asked 'you don't sacrifice gerbils at the high moon, do you, in your spare time?' just as easily ;)

Willow'sCat
January 21st, 2007, 01:16 PM
Uh, those were two friends just shooting the breeze and I just snorted at that question because Sheppard probably realizes how little he really knows about Ronon, and this IS an entirely different galaxy which has different religions/beliefs/practices. I saw the remark as something the writers just slip in for humor (or to tease slash fans, who knows?) and since Ronon isn't in the U.S. military, there's no rules against asking the question. Heck, Shep could easily have asked 'you don't sacrifice gerbils at the high moon, do you, in your spare time?' just as easily ;)
I know all of that, I was wondering if the DADT regs actually mean anything in this situation. Either way, it seems odd Sheppard is the one to ask, joking or not.

Pegasus_SGA
January 21st, 2007, 01:24 PM
I know all of that, I was wondering if the DADT regs actually mean anything in this situation. Either way, it seems odd Sheppard is the one to ask, joking or not.
Quick question...why would it be odd? Because Sheppard is in the military and shouldn't use the word gay, or ask a friend who's not in the military or even of the same planet is gay? He was bonding with him, and since Ronon didn't reply about the seeing anyone when he mentioned a woman, so he was probably curious...

ShadowMaat
January 21st, 2007, 02:20 PM
...in ShadowMaat's sig ("They came for Ford, they came for Carson, they came for Weir...") This entire thread is already chock full of spoilers waaay before Loki78 arrived. Don't feel badly, Loki, the precedent was set before you got here!

I also "announce" in my sig that Joe F and David H are leaving and that Lorne is next on the chopping block. As far as I know, none of those are currently true. Who's to say where the facts stop and the speculation begins?

Night Spring
January 21st, 2007, 03:09 PM
This entire thread is already chock full of spoilers waaay before Loki78 arrived. Don't feel badly, Loki, the precedent was set before you got here!
Loki's post was originally not in this thread -- she/he started a new thread in the main S3 forum. The mods merged Loki's thread with this one after people complained.

markaudette
January 21st, 2007, 05:42 PM
My God it's terrible to lose Carson.

I sincerely loved his character so very much.

Still, I have hope that he can come back to guest star in future episodes. My take on what happened to him is that the Ancients felt a little remorse over Carson dieing to what is tantamount of an Ancient landmine. Because that's kind of how I see what the device created - the bomb that forms inside people, kind of like a land mine.

I am going to miss Carson on the show.

PG15
January 21st, 2007, 06:22 PM
I skipped the last 10 pages of this thread because...come on! 30. FRACKING. PAGES.

Anyway, did anyone else realize that Carson was the only constant in every "story"? He was the only other regular in Weir's story, and was present as part of Shep and Ronan's, Teyla's (short) story, and of course, Rodney's story.

This episode was for Beckett from the very beginning IMHO.

Night Spring
January 21st, 2007, 06:49 PM
I skipped the last 10 pages of this thread because...come on! 30. FRACKING. PAGES.

Anyway, did anyone else realize that Carson was the only constant in every "story"? He was the only other regular in Weir's story, and was present as part of Shep and Ronan's, Teyla's (short) story, and of course, Rodney's story.

This episode was for Beckett from the very beginning IMHO.
Yes I did realize that, and that makes me mad -- they wrote an entire episode just for the purpose of killing off a character!

Maybe there is a larger reason for writing out Beckett that will become apparent in the future -- but I'm not holding my breath for it.

Belamel
January 21st, 2007, 07:12 PM
OK there is one thing that I noticed in this episode that has been bothering me. In the scene where Rodney chews out Hewston and Watson we discover that they had been exposed to a machine that was giving off some sort of radiation. At this point Carson says there doesn't seem to be anything wrong with them but they should check back in 24 hours. The next day, Sunday, Carson sees Watson at the "driving range" where Watson says his stomach has been feeling weird. Carson tells him that this is his day off and go tell Dr. Cole in the infirmary. My problem with this is that even though it was Carson's day off I think that he would have been a little more concerned and proactive when the guy exposed to Ancient radiation tells him that something doesn't feel right. Do you think the writers put this in there to make Carson feel guilty about not helping the guy earlier and therefore explain his actions at the end (in addition to the whole hypocratic oath concept)? The whole thing just doesn't feel right with Carson being so indifferent to the guy when there was a very good reason to pay attention to him.

Jedted
January 21st, 2007, 10:59 PM
Anyone think that Dr. Cole looked a little like Jewel Staite? As soon as i saw her i thought of Staite but apparently i was wrong.

I musta mis read thinking she would be in the second half of the season.

the old briar pipe
January 21st, 2007, 11:26 PM
OK there is one thing that I noticed in this episode that has been bothering me. In the scene where Rodney chews out Hewston and Watson we discover that they had been exposed to a machine that was giving off some sort of radiation. At this point Carson says there doesn't seem to be anything wrong with them but they should check back in 24 hours. The next day, Sunday, Carson sees Watson at the "driving range" where Watson says his stomach has been feeling weird. Carson tells him that this is his day off and go tell Dr. Cole in the infirmary. My problem with this is that even though it was Carson's day off I think that he would have been a little more concerned and proactive when the guy exposed to Ancient radiation tells him that something doesn't feel right. Do you think the writers put this in there to make Carson feel guilty about not helping the guy earlier and therefore explain his actions at the end (in addition to the whole hypocratic oath concept)? The whole thing just doesn't feel right with Carson being so indifferent to the guy when there was a very good reason to pay attention to him.

Hm. I do see your point.

I think it was late in the evening/after bedtime when they were called to the carpet by McKay - bathrobe and bedhead, anyone? :D - so their actual appointment was for the next night shift. Though that doesn't negate your other argument at all.

From personal experience, I can say that my dad fields complaints all the time, of which stomach pain, back pain, and the early onset of common colds are the most common. And he's not even a GP. This is in his spare time when he's not on call, not at work. So Carson probably gets these things all the time and the one day, the one day when he wants to go fishing and have his darned day off already, that's the day it turns out he should have sent the guy for x-rays.

The irony is a little heavy-handed, yes, but I can see it happening.

jeterfan
January 22nd, 2007, 02:15 AM
Loki's post was originally not in this thread -- she/he started a new thread in the main S3 forum. The mods merged Loki's thread with this one after people complained.

Oh. I thought it was that post in here. Sorry!:o

Pegasus_SGA
January 22nd, 2007, 03:08 AM
Well I watched it again...and again and again :D :D :D

I thought the epi was very well written, good character development in everyone which was so nice to see. It shows that TPTB are more than capable of writing development for everyone...so why did it take an episode like this to showcase their talents?

I said in a post...so many ages ago now, lol. That this was a Carson ep from beginning to end and it didn't disappoint at all. I can't remember who said it, but I think that someone on this thread said that the team weren't THAT good a friend to Carson, for blowing off the fishing trip. But in their defence how often do we put stuff on hold when something we'd rather do comes along. It wasn't that no one wanted to spend time with him, they just didn't want to FISH, there's a difference.

There were so many things about the ep that I loved in my las post so I won't repeat them here, but for me one of the pivitol moments was for Sheppard and McKay. Both of them dealing with it in their own way.

Sheppard's 'It hasn't hit me' struck a cord in me, and I totally relate to what he means by that, and when it does hit, it will hit hard. I just hope that we as viewers get to see that side of Sheppard... Carson was his family, and as we don't know much about his background it would be interesting to see how they incorporate this into future storylines.

As for McKay...bless, I just wanted to give him a cuddle and tell him everything would be ok. DH played this extreemly well, and it showed how much he's grown over the years. Carson was his best friend (remember he only has a handful of people he would confide in) and Carson was one of them. Is there a limit on the number of best friends you can have? For me the most poignant moments was when he was looking at the pic of him and Carson...beutifully done, and the ending where he's on the peer. Everything was just right (imo) the guilt, and anguish..the if only, and that's one of the hardest things to cope with when you're grieving. I thought the waving to his friend and Carson's 'Don't blame yourself' was brilliant writing and props go to PM and DH for this.

I think for me though the most haunting thing was the quietness at the memorial. There was no score, untill the bagpipes started playing, and then I grabbed for the kleenex *sniff* The scene was heartfelt and to see the hurt in everyone's stance and stoic expressions showed what an impact Carson had on their lives and how much he'll be missed... and personnally it felt real as they knew PM was unlikely to come back...

*sniff*

nonniemous
January 22nd, 2007, 08:44 AM
Anyone think that Dr. Cole looked a little like Jewel Staite? As soon as i saw her i thought of Staite but apparently i was wrong.

I musta mis read thinking she would be in the second half of the season.

Jewel filmed at least one of the last three episodes this season; I've seen where people have said "one" but her interview doesn't specify a number. DH talks about her being on set, saving people in his interview about Season 3.

Supposedly Jewel has said her character's name is "Dr. Keller." "Cole" is close, though. Given the resemblance of that actress to her, the way they gave her "pride of place" in the funeral scenes, and that she was a pall bearer over someone like Biro? Yes, there are suspicions that she is a "placeholder" and TPTB's attempt to slot Jewel's character in without having to "introduce" her and the rest of the main cast can be shown as already having a relationship with her and therefore no problem with her replacing Carson.

prion
January 22nd, 2007, 09:38 AM
Supposedly Jewel has said her character's name is "Dr. Keller." "Cole" is close, though. Given the resemblance of that actress to her, the way they gave her "pride of place" in the funeral scenes, and that she was a pall bearer over someone like Biro? Yes, there are suspicions that she is a "placeholder" and TPTB's attempt to slot Jewel's character in without having to "introduce" her and the rest of the main cast can be shown as already having a relationship with her and therefore no problem with her replacing Carson.

Yup, when I saw her at UFP in November, I asked who she was playing and she told me she was playing Dr. Keller but clammed up on the rest.



I skipped the last 10 pages of this thread because...come on! 30. FRACKING. PAGES.

Anyway, did anyone else realize that Carson was the only constant in every "story"? He was the only other regular in Weir's story, and was present as part of Shep and Ronan's, Teyla's (short) story, and of course, Rodney's story.

This episode was for Beckett from the very beginning IMHO.

Uh yeah... not sure where you're going with that. I'd say the bulk of the 30 pages is about Beckett... ;)

PG15
January 22nd, 2007, 01:13 PM
Just wanted to point out that "Beckett constant" out. :D

I guess I should've said "So I didn't read through the last 10 pages, sorry if anyone else has already said this..."

TJuk
January 22nd, 2007, 04:19 PM
If you go back and read the interviews with Gero when he first talked of his idea for 'Sunday', it sounded like he'd already written a spec script or outline and pitched it but been rejected. One of the things that he mentioned that stood out for me (please excuse no exact quote or link, I cant be arsed) was he spoke about the 5 main characters. FIVE. Thats Weir, Teyla, Sheppard, McKay and Ronon. Its one of the reasons when I look at the episode it made me feel the addition of Beckett's death was an after thought. He may have popped up, but his original inclusion in the story (if any) was definately not as inclusive, probably on the same lines as Lorne or Zelenka. The way Gero's talked in interviews leading up to its broadcast was it was a 'rejected idea' until they decided to add a dramatic element to make it work, aka Beckett's death.

Looking at the way Gero writes, when he includes Beckett its usually as a foil, dramatic or comedic for McKay. He doesn't use the character much on his own merit as an individual. Which is fine to a point, Duet is a great ep and one of my favourites. But because of what he'd said previously, and because of what I saw on screen, and BECAUSE they just couldn't have him die without really making him part of the story, thats why I preceived and was disappointed by his limited inclusion in the story. AND severely disappointed by the waste of his character and so many unfulfilled stories lines.

From this season alone...What did Michael do to him in the 2 DAYS he was alone with him before rescue? What sort of personnal cost has it all had? Sheppards near loss in Conversion. Ellia's accidental death, essentially an innocent life. Baraso's death and head f*&$ by the Wraith machine. Any 'normal' person (the thing I loved most about Beckett, his 'everyman' qualities) would be suffering some sort of emotioal backlash. The man had a big heart and strong conscience after all. We never even got one, truely personnal, dramatic moment where they let us see how much he HAD to be hurting. ANY one of those would have been powerful and dramatic...written right, as powerful if not more so then his death. Paul McGillion was certainly capable of it (anyone whose seen his multi-award winning 'See Grace Fly', will know that). But that would also mean he was the 'center' of that scene or god forbid, an episode.

Look at the way its written. YES Beckett is the constant that tied everyone together. But he HAD to be for the final scenes to work. But you could have easily lifted those parts out without any impact on the episodes storyline. Taken the drama away yes, but the story would still be there and whole. And ya know what, while not as dramatic it would have been highly enjoyable. We learnt something about our heroes after all! But He WAS NOT the centre, with the rest of the characters revolving around in support, he was an extra layer added in and woven around the others to make the final dramatic moments have impact.

Did I think it was a good episode? Yes of course I did. Did I think it was dramatic? To a point yes, how could it not be? Do I think the cost of Beckett's loss was worth it? Nope, I think the drama, compassion, comedy and many other elements he bought to the show easily out-weighed those few finite moments. THis show has never been reknowned for is emotional continuity after all.

I think they've ripped the heart out of 'Atlantis' and left a bleeding hole. Reading the 'Review of the Year' articles in various magazines Atlantis was heavily criticised for its retrovirus arc and the can of moralistic worms it opened up. However one element was constantly pointed out, that Beckett, though he has made questionable moral decisions himself (to err, is to be human after all), at least he brought some sort redemption to the stories with his humanity and compassion.

This episode, though VERY dramatic, touching and heart-wrenching was a lesson for the fans in 'be careful what you wish for' and ultimately, an utter waste of potential.

prion
January 22nd, 2007, 04:27 PM
If you go back and read the interviews with Gero when he first talked of his idea for 'Sunday', it sounded like he'd already written a spec script or outline and pitched it but been rejected. One of the things that he mentioned that stood out for me (please excuse no exact quote or link, I cant be arsed) was he spoke about the 5 main characters. FIVE. Thats Weir, Teyla, Sheppard, McKay and Ronon. Its one of the reasons when I look at the episode it made me feel the addition of Beckett's death was an after thought. He may have popped up, but his original inclusion in the story (if any) was definately not as inclusive, probably on the same lines as Lorne or Zelenka. The way Gero's talked in interviews leading up to its broadcast was it was a 'rejected idea' until they decided to add a dramatic element to make it work, aka Beckett's death.


"Sunday" is SGA's "Heroes." A script that started out on a lighter vein, that suddenly ended up darker and with the death of one of the base's doctor.

nonniemous
January 22nd, 2007, 04:30 PM
But He WAS NOT the centre, with the rest of the characters revolving around in support, he was an extra layer added in and woven around the others to make the final dramatic moments have impact.

This, I think, is what infuriates me the most about the episode, that Beckett was basically an extra at his own death. It was only done so we could see the impact on the other characters; it had nothing to with Beckett or with the show's larger story arc (*insert laugh track*). How hard would it have been to tie in the need to save Watson despite the risks to the fact that he'd been forced to watch the humanized Wraith destroyed by his own people? To make his defiance of Sheppard trying to order him to stop at least somewhat tied in to the fact that this time Beckett had control of the situation and wasn't going to give it up?

For that matter, why wasn't a bigger deal made of the fact that Teyla's surgery was complicated and tricky, and she most likely would have died if Carson hadn't been there to operate on her? That, too, was simply a teaser, easily missed by most viewers.

Rodney got "Tao of McKay" and "Grace Under Pressure" when he was threatened with death. Sheppard had "Common Ground." Ronon got "Sateda." Weir got "Real World." Teyla hasn't gotten anything yet, and Beckett, well, he was like the Lucky Charms leprechaun in this episode, popping up and providing comic relief and that was about it. If it hadn't been necessary to have those connections in order to up the emotional manipulation of the viewer at the end, we probably wouldn't even have seen him until Watson needed surgery.

Pegasus_SGA
January 22nd, 2007, 04:34 PM
If you go back and read the interviews with Gero when he first talked of his idea for 'Sunday', it sounded like he'd already written a spec script or outline and pitched it but been rejected. One of the things that he mentioned that stood out for me (please excuse no exact quote or link, I cant be arsed) was he spoke about the 5 main characters. FIVE. Thats Weir, Teyla, Sheppard, McKay and Ronon. Its one of the reasons when I look at the episode it made me feel the addition of Beckett's death was an after thought. He may have popped up, but his original inclusion in the story (if any) was definately not as inclusive, probably on the same lines as Lorne or Zelenka. The way Gero's talked in interviews leading up to its broadcast was it was a 'rejected idea' until they decided to add a dramatic element to make it work, aka Beckett's death.

Looking at the way Gero writes, when he includes Beckett its usually as a foil, dramatic or comedic for McKay. He doesn't use the character much on his own merit as an individual. Which is fine to a point, Duet is a great ep and one of my favourites. But because of what he'd said previously, and because of what I saw on screen, and BECAUSE they just couldn't have him die without really making him part of the story, thats why I preceived and was disappointed by his limited inclusion in the story. AND severely disappointed by the waste of his character and so many unfulfilled stories lines.

From this season alone...What did Michael do to him in the 2 DAYS he was alone with him before rescue? What sort of personnal cost has it all had? Sheppards near loss in Conversion. Ellia's accidental death, essentially an innocent life. Baraso's death and head f*&$ by the Wraith machine. Any 'normal' person (the thing I loved most about Beckett, his 'everyman' qualities) would be suffering some sort of emotioal backlash. The man had a big heart and strong conscience after all. We never even got one, truely personnal, dramatic moment where they let us see how much he HAD to be hurting. ANY one of those would have been powerful and dramatic...written right, as powerful if not more so then his death. Paul McGillion was certainly capable of it (anyone whose seen his multi-award winning 'See Grace Fly', will know that). But that would also mean he was the 'center' of that scene or god forbid, an episode.

Look at the way its written. YES Beckett is the constant that tied everyone together. But he HAD to be for the final scenes to work. But you could have easily lifted those parts out without any impact on the episodes storyline. Taken the drama away yes, but the story would still be there and whole. And ya know what, while not as dramatic it would have been highly enjoyable. We learnt something about our heroes after all! But He WAS NOT the centre, with the rest of the characters revolving around in support, he was an extra layer added in and woven around the others to make the final dramatic moments have impact.

Did I think it was a good episode? Yes of course I did. Did I think it was dramatic? To a point yes, how could it not be? Do I think the cost of Beckett's loss was worth it? Nope, I think the drama, compassion, comedy and many other elements he bought to the show easily out-weighed those few finite moments. THis show has never been reknowned for is emotional continuity after all.

I think they've ripped the heart out of 'Atlantis' and left a bleeding hole. Reading the 'Review of the Year' articles in various magazines Atlantis was heavily criticised for its retrovirus arc and the can of moralistic worms it opened up. However one element was constantly pointed out, that Beckett, though he has made questionable moral decisions himself (to err, is to be human after all), at least he brought some sort redemption to the stories with his humanity and compassion.

This episode, though VERY dramatic, touching and heart-wrenching was a lesson for the fans in 'be careful what you wish for' and ultimately, an utter waste of potential.
I agree with everything you said, and one of the concerns I have with Atlantis is the continuity aspect regarding past actions/decisions/history of the character, however you want to define it. This is a major blow for the Atlantis team, and I for one don't want it pushed to the back as if Carson never existed. I want to see ramifications and the impacts of his death in their actions in their words and in their demenour. Now I know the eps can't 'harp on' (for want of a better word) about his death, but acknowledgement should be a given and the teams reactions to it. Sheppard said it hadn't hit him yet, so I would like to see the ep when it does 'hit him' McKay was inconsolable, so does this mean that in the next ep we will see him back as how McKay always is or will we see the effect of it all. Again with Teyla and Ronon, we didn't see much reaction from them, a lovely bit by Ronon shows that he'll deal with it in his own way, but Teyla and Weir? We didn't get to see how much it hurt them apart from a little tidbit. So I would like to see it brought to the foreground and incorporated into future's ep.

Ohh had a bit of a rant there, sorry about that, lol...

TJuk
January 22nd, 2007, 06:05 PM
"Sunday" is SGA's "Heroes." A script that started out on a lighter vein, that suddenly ended up darker and with the death of one of the base's doctor.

Good point. But at the end of the day Janet was a recurring character not main cast. Important yes. High profile, yes. Beloved to the fans, oh god yes (but then to some extent so was Grodin or his death would have had no impact). But she did not have so many central plot elements left UNRESOLVED. Untold definately, but started and unfinished or thrown away?

I think it's part of Beckett's downfall. I think that TPTB never got the 'recurring character' mentality out of their minds even though they promoted him. Which I STILL believe was as much a business decision to ensure the actors availability as it was his 'popularity'. Because of that Beckett was not treated as an individual nor consistently written for on the characters own merits, but rather his job description. Except of course, when it suited the purposes of the plot and even then it was as I said, usually as a foil for another character. As an example, not taking away from it or the actors performances because it was powerful and touching. The last scene in 'Sunday' was used to give us a little peak at the inner workings of McKay and in the process a sweet farewell to Carson. But it was STILL written for McKay NOT Beckett.

To illustrate my point, just look at any publicity and merchendising. He is there in the stuff they absolutely can not miss him out on, but generally he's as marginalise in the promotion of the show as he is in the storylines. The adverts, the stuff on Scifi's site etc. Weir and Teyla (and to some extent Ronon) have also been under utilised but still acknowledged as main cast when promoting the show.

As a result of not shedding themselves of that mentality, it must have become increasingly difficult to want to write for Beckett. Its almost like they thought, 'well the doctor was never meant to be part of the main cast, so why try'? Though there has been some promise of a change in that attitude with his inclusion in more off-world episodes. So to kill him off now when they've FINALLY started to get to grips with the character...well my feelings are clear on that issue.

But they DO NOT use him as a central character. 'Sunday' shows that, he was used to create drama for the rest of the characters and as a result, the show. Not to give Beckett/Paul himself a moment to shine and carry an episode. He is often used as a catalyst, but rarely ever as the central focus.

It's weird because MGM USED Beckett to sell the show to Europe initially. Otherwise why choose 'Poisoning the Well' as the free episode to give away with SG1 DVDs? The plot was definately not a stand alone. They used it to entice European, new and exist fans of the franchise to watch the spin-off show (international DVD sales are important to the shows revenue...why do you think we get them first?). That was the ONLY episode that was every truely Beckett's. I cant count how many fans, especially SG1 long time fans have said that PtW is the episode that drew them into watching SGA.

And ya know what? I think TPTB totally underestimated and never truely beleived in Carson/Paul's popularity with the viewers. I just HOPE the events in 'Sunday' can and will be 'spun' into something less final and we'll get him back in season 4...FULL TIME.

Mitchell82
January 22nd, 2007, 07:03 PM
Yes I did realize that, and that makes me mad -- they wrote an entire episode just for the purpose of killing off a character!

Maybe there is a larger reason for writing out Beckett that will become apparent in the future -- but I'm not holding my breath for it.

Well IMO that is how it needed to be done. If they just killed him off in the backround I'd be very pissed.

veryangrystargatefan
January 22nd, 2007, 08:14 PM
My opinion is that the fans need to keep sounding off about this idiotic move by TPTB despite the fact that Carson is apparently gone. I personally think that he merely ascended based on the ending with him on the pier with Rodney. If we sound off and chew out TPTB in loud letters and mail of disgust, they may realize they have jumped the shark and if they don't undo this Atlantis doesn't stand a chance of lasting as long as SG-1.

Rachel (veryangrystargatefan)

Night Spring
January 22nd, 2007, 08:58 PM
Well IMO that is how it needed to be done. If they just killed him off in the backround I'd be very pissed.
My point was that storywise, there was no reason to kill off any character at all. I loved Grodin, and I still miss him, but still, it made sense that somebody had to die during the Siege. Sunday felt like a "very special episode" written just for no other reason than killing off a character.

Zed.P.M.
January 23rd, 2007, 01:57 AM
Nooooooooooo!!!

I'm so sad to see Carson go. I hope they can bring him back, not just for an appearance, but as a regular cast member. Save Carson Beckett!

Also, I'm man enough to admit that I cried a bit when Daniel died, and I cried a bit again when Carson died.:(

Lauriel
January 23rd, 2007, 04:20 PM
My point was that storywise, there was no reason to kill off any character at all. I loved Grodin, and I still miss him, but still, it made sense that somebody had to die during the Siege. Sunday felt like a "very special episode" written just for no other reason than killing off a character.

I'm too sad to say much, but I agree with this view. The Michael/Carson idea that's been floating around (and it's a good one too!) would have at least incorporated Carson's death into the storyline. It would also highlight how dangerous the Pegasus Galaxy is and do more to strengthen the danger represented by the assorted enemies they have (ala Grodin). With the exception of eps like CG, the enemies tend to either be trivialised, or simply not convey the impact that they could achieve.

TJuk
January 24th, 2007, 03:55 AM
My point was that storywise, there was no reason to kill off any character at all. I loved Grodin, and I still miss him, but still, it made sense that somebody had to die during the Siege. Sunday felt like a "very special episode" written just for no other reason than killing off a character.

I think thats EXACTLY the reason his death occurred in this episode. Not to highlight the 'danger' but to dispose of the character. Simple as that. The no follow up certainly highlights this and makes his death even more trivial. The nature of his death...a tasteless CGfireball??? COME ON! And we all know it wasn't part of the first draft because Gero had spoken about his original idea several times and that it was REJECTED. So IMO it was written into the script as an excuse to dispose of Beckett needlessly and say 'thats what made the story'. But shock factor only works for one episode. If they wanted his death to have meaning then it would have to be followed up, Stargate has NEVER been good at doing that (for anything) so they shouldn't use character death because it makes deaths seem trivial and pointless and in the end has the reverse action, turning viewers away.

Regphorph
January 24th, 2007, 07:00 AM
Really didn't like this ep because of Carsons death

lily
January 24th, 2007, 08:07 AM
Haven't read the posts here yet, but I'm posting my thoughts. An extract from what I posted at my LJ:

Oh, boy. This epi blew my mind. I ADORE IT. Not because of the plot, which was OK, but nothing mind-blowing, and that's fine, since the plot wasn't the focus of the epi. I absolutely loved Sunday and it blew my mind because of the fantastic character moments.

The beginning... WOW. I knew in advance what the general plot was about: a day off in Atlantis, showing what the characters were doing until there was an explosion. I also knew it was very possible that this one was the episode where Carson died, but I wasn't 100% sure. I knew all that, but I wasn't expecting the explosion so early in the epi, so it was a surprise.

I liked how they got back in time several times and every time it ended in the same moment so you knew what everybody was doing when they heard the explosion. I also loved that some of the separate stories met, like Elizabeth and Dr. Branton having lunch at the commissary and Rodney going there and finding them. I had the feeling I was putting the pieces of a puzzle together as the episode went on and started to get the big picture. I think it was a great way of telling the story.

I was OK with the Elizabeth and Dr. Branton scenes. Didn't mind them, but I didn't see a lot of chemistry as a pairing there so I hope it doesn't turn into an official pairing.

I loved when John and Ronon find Teyla. Ronon, behind John, making signals to Teyla was so funny. Ronon trying to avoid golf lessons was funny too :) And the actual golf lesson... LOL

John and Ronon in the gym... Absolutely hilarious. I was ROTFLMAO the whole time. I adore this scene. Ah, poor John. Got whumped <vbg> And we got some nice sneak peeks of John's boxers *vbg*

John and Ronon in John's room. OMG. I adore this scene too. It starts funny, with Ronon smashing that thing into his forehead and then becomes more serious while drinking beer.

John being married at some point was a huge surprise. I wonder if he's single now or still married, even if only in papers, never bothering to get divorced... Hmmm. I see some plot bunnies for fan fic there :)

Rodney lecturing the two young scientists. It must be hell to have him as one's boss :D And his hair, like he had just gotten out of bed. LOL. Loved this scene. I liked how Rodney shouts at them first (I think he does that because he's worried about them more than anything else) and then feels sorry/guilty and gives them the day off, even if they already had the day off. It's the thought that counts :) I liked Dr. Houston. It would've been great to see her learning from Rodney. It's a pity she was killed :(


Loved seeing Katie Brown again. Loved the scenes with Katie and Rodney. And how Rodney tells her that seeing his sister so happy with her family made him think of marriage. It's amazing how much Rodney changed since he stepped into the Pegasus galaxy.

Ah, Rodney seeing Elizabeth and Branton having lunch. His face was priceless.

I liked the little tidbits we got about Radek playing chess and Lorne painting.

Oh, boy. From the moment the second tumor exploded and Carson was killed, until the end, I cried like a baby. And I cried again every single time I watched the epi after that.

Rodney packing Carson's belongings and his conversation with Ronon, with Rodney feeling guilty and in tears. It broke my heart.

John in his dress blues. OMG. I've been wanting this since day one. I wish it was under different circumnstances, though.

I loved the scene with John and Teyla in the infirmary. So sweet. When Teyla says that she feels a great sadness. I could feel her sadness. A short line but it carried so much emotion.

Everybody gathered in the gateroom. Oh, man. Elizabeth's words were fantastic. The guy dressed in traditional Scottish clothes, playing the bagpipe was a great touch. And John, Rodney, Lorne, Cole, Radek and Ronon carrying the coffin through the gate... I cried so much.

And the last scene... It left me wondering the meaning. Was it just a dream? Was it real? And if it was real, does it means Carson ascended? After all, he has the Ancient gene, so... But he didn't do the glowy thing ascended beings do, so... What?!! Is Carson dead for good or not? Hmmm

I hate the idea of Carson being dead, but as the cliche goes... nobody stays dead in sci fi... unless TPTB wish it so... So maybe, just maybe, he comes back in the future.

Carson, you'll be sorely missed.

A brilliant and emotional episode. Sigh.

Major Gambit
January 24th, 2007, 02:46 PM
lol. First Janet now Carson. I guess being a doctor in the stargate universe is a dangerous job :D

-Jules-
January 24th, 2007, 05:35 PM
Please forgive, but I haven't been keeping up-to-date. :o

When did this episode air? Has it already aired in the US?

the old briar pipe
January 24th, 2007, 05:45 PM
Please forgive, but I haven't been keeping up-to-date. :o

When did this episode air? Has it already aired in the US?

It aired Monday night in Canada. It won't air in the US until (counts on fingers) sometime in late May / early June. So you didn't miss it. :)

-Jules-
January 24th, 2007, 05:48 PM
Thanks so much!

I was begining to panic... I'm usually the schedule police for everyone, and I have been neglecting my duties. :rolleyes:

I am terribly dissappointed to hear the spoilers though. At least it won't be as much of a shock, but still... so sad. :(

Falcon Horus
January 25th, 2007, 05:19 AM
I am terribly dissappointed to hear the spoilers though. At least it won't be as much of a shock, but still... so sad. :(

That's what you think. :p
I knew what was going to happen and it still came as a shock to actually see him go out with a bang. (no pun intended)

It's like watching "Titanic" (IMO anyway). You know the ship is going to hit the iceberg and sink to the bottom of the ocean, and yet every time my mind is hoping for different turn-out. It's like, 'Oh, they'll notice the ice and make a turn in time.' And I know that sounds hopelessly ridiculous. :o

Lauriel
January 25th, 2007, 05:35 AM
That's what you think. :p
I knew what was going to happen and it still came as a shock to actually see him go out with a bang. (no pun intended)

It's like watching "Titanic" (IMO anyway). You know the ship is going to hit the iceberg and sink to the bottom of the ocean, and yet every time my mind is hoping for different turn-out. It's like, 'Oh, they'll notice the ice and make a turn in time.' And I know that sounds hopelessly ridiculous. :o

Me too. I knew it was coming, and I still cried like a baby. Nope - I've tried to type more, but words fail. I'm still sniffling. :(

the old briar pipe
January 25th, 2007, 06:09 PM
Me too. I knew it was coming, and I still cried like a baby. Nope - I've tried to type more, but words fail. I'm still sniffling. :(

It's like your mind keeps saying, "This is not happening!" and you try to find ways it might not have happened - it was a dream sequence, he's only badly injured, he ascended, it's all a trick....

Then Teyla starts sniffling onscreen for, like, the second time ever and I'm bawling my eyes out. :sheppardanime32: Darn you, Carson. Poisoning the Well got me, too.

Jedted
January 27th, 2007, 06:46 AM
When i heard the news that Mcgillion was leaving i knew there would be a huge outcry similar to Shanks departure from SG1. Who knows, the ending for "Sunday" leaves us with hope that the writers just might find a way to bring him back again.

obsessed1
January 27th, 2007, 11:00 AM
Me too. I knew it was coming, and I still cried like a baby. Nope - I've tried to type more, but words fail. I'm still sniffling. :(
same here. I thought, no, i wont cry...but that funeral..........WEEPS AGAIN!!!!

And I totally agree aboutb having his death incorperated into the michael story. It would have made a lot more sense to do it that way that this.

ShadowMaat
January 27th, 2007, 11:06 AM
Having a Michael-oriented death for Carson might have been interesting but I thought the whole point of the ep is that death can come when you least expect it. Michael is an obvious threat, but walking to the cafeteria? Who expects to die then? Maybe after you've sampled the food, but before? ;)

Carson died on an "ordinary" day in Atlantis. Yeah, there was the whole "exploding tumors" thing, but there were no obvious threats; no Wraith, no Replicators, no enemies thirsting for revenge... it was the aftereffects of an accident and I thought the ep did a pretty good job of showing just how dangerous things can be when you start fiddling with things you don't fully understand- and how sometimes even doing the "right thing" can have fatal consequences.

Jedted
January 27th, 2007, 01:31 PM
Yeah, there was the whole "exploding tumors" thing, but there were no obvious threats

Speaking of which, anyone think that was jumping the shark just a tad? I know there was an explanation for it but come on, Exploding Tumors?! I definatly wouldn't wanna be either of those two scientists that's for sure.

ShadowMaat
January 27th, 2007, 01:35 PM
Speaking of which, anyone think that was jumping the shark just a tad? I know there was an explanation for it but come on, Exploding Tumors?! I definatly wouldn't wanna be either of those two scientists that's for sure.

Both Stargates have had their share of pathetic plot devices. I think Sunday, at least, made pretty good use of what it had.

Then again, I'd have said Atlantis jumped the shark before this. ;)

TJuk
January 27th, 2007, 02:16 PM
I think killing of one of the most unique characters in the show put it in the 'jumping the shark' catagory. Whether you liked him or not, he was an important and unique aspect of cast dynamic. The very man who wrote his death with those DUMB exploding tumours said he was possibly/probably '...the emotional core of the show'... (From the interview with Martin Gero in the 'Paul Profile' extra on the s2 DVD's).

scarimor
January 27th, 2007, 02:35 PM
... it was the aftereffects of an accident and I thought the ep did a pretty good job of showing just how dangerous things can be when you start fiddling with things you don't fully understand- and how sometimes even doing the "right thing" can have fatal consequences.
And those fatal consequences can happen in the safest (relatively) place you've got. Not just out there in the field, but right inside your home and place of everyday work.

Pharaoh Atem
January 27th, 2007, 05:54 PM
It was a nice touch that every single member of the cast had a chance to go fishing with him and they all passed it up. Maybe nice isn't the right word.

isn't that the way it always is in life......

this was agood/sad episode

more ronon i loved that we was kicking john's ass with the flad stick game, and the one arm tee shot :lol:

weir has a boyfriend :P...ewwwwwww lol thoug hthat was a little to sudden but it was a break from the usual.

and a ode to Carson for doing everything he could to save someone even at a risk to himself. it didn't really hit me that he had died untill everyone was in the gateroom and the bagpipes started to play :( ( i started to cry i'll admit it)

and finally the rodney/beckett sence outside of atlantis was great broke me up again shining moment for david he sold me on that beckett was his friend and that he would really miss him.

Jedted
January 28th, 2007, 12:48 AM
I think killing of one of the most unique characters in the show put it in the 'jumping the shark' catagory.

Gotta agree with ya on that one. I allways liked Beckett and watching his character evolve, next to McKay and Radek he was my 3rd favorite in the series.

I just realized how much "Sunday" is like "Heroes", both were about normal days on the base when something unexpected happens which leads to the loss of a close friend. If they had something other than Exploading......Tumors(exploading nanites maybe) then i might think this story rivals the one in "Heroes". Oh yeah, loose Weir's suave boyfriend too. :rolleyes:

Linzi
January 28th, 2007, 01:23 AM
When i heard the news that Mcgillion was leaving i knew there would be a huge outcry similar to Shanks departure from SG1. Who knows, the ending for "Sunday" leaves us with hope that the writers just might find a way to bring him back again.
I personally don't think there has been an outcry similar to Shanks leaving SG1. I'm personally very unhappy about Carson leaving, because my impression is that Paul didn't want to leave - that is just my impression though, I don't know anything for sure. I certainly didn't want Carson to no longer be in the show! :( But, I don't feel inclined to be involved in trying to bring him back, because I think it's futile, and I personally know many others who feel the same way. Daniel ascended, so there was always the potential for him to return - the door wasn't closed. Carson is gone - no doubt about that. I don't like it, but I've accepted it. Sadly, after seeing Sunday, I don't see a way for him to come back. Like Janet, he's gone and the only way back is the odd AU cameo, in my opinion, which I don't even really like.
Shanks did want to leave, but even so, the fan response was massive from what I remember. Carson's demise hasn't had as big an impact on the net as I thought it would, to be honest, but he wasn't as important a character in terms of the storyline or had the amount of screentime as Daniel was and had, in my opinion.
Also, N.John Smith's comments at the Gmex in Manchester said it all to me. He said maybe they could bring Paul back as another character at some stage. That's when it hit me that Carson is sadly gone for good :(

scarimor
January 28th, 2007, 01:18 PM
Gotta agree with ya on that one. I allways liked Beckett and watching his character evolve, next to McKay and Radek he was my 3rd favorite in the series.

I just realized how much "Sunday" is like "Heroes", both were about normal days on the base when something unexpected happens which leads to the loss of a close friend.
I disagree about the "normal days on the base" comparison for Heroes. It was a very unusual scenario in Heroes: they had a media team on the base - something they'd never had before - filming and recording and conducting interviews. And then the base commander sent his CMO off-world (which was rare) into a fire-fight (which was extraordinary).

Major Tyler
January 28th, 2007, 07:24 PM
I just loved the idea of Major Lorne on SG-1!

*Dreams of a "Lt. Colonel Carter/Maj. Lorne/Daniel/Teal'c" SG-1* :D

TJuk
January 29th, 2007, 06:02 AM
I personally don't think there has been an outcry similar to Shanks leaving SG1. I'm personally very unhappy about Carson leaving, because my impression is that Paul didn't want to leave - that is just my impression though, I don't know anything for sure. I certainly didn't want Carson to no longer be in the show! :( But, I don't feel inclined to be involved in trying to bring him back, because I think it's futile, and I personally know many others who feel the same way. Daniel ascended, so there was always the potential for him to return - the door wasn't closed. Carson is gone - no doubt about that. I don't like it, but I've accepted it. Sadly, after seeing Sunday, I don't see a way for him to come back. Like Janet, he's gone and the only way back is the odd AU cameo, in my opinion, which I don't even really like.
Shanks did want to leave, but even so, the fan response was massive from what I remember. Carson's demise hasn't had as big an impact on the net as I thought it would, to be honest, but he wasn't as important a character in terms of the storyline or had the amount of screentime as Daniel was and had, in my opinion.
Also, N.John Smith's comments at the Gmex in Manchester said it all to me. He said maybe they could bring Paul back as another character at some stage. That's when it hit me that Carson is sadly gone for good :(

Actually the campaign is building up day by day. The SDJ campaign didn't happen overnight, it was the result of a lot of very hard work by the orangisers to encourage fans to support it. And its only 2 weeks since 'Sunday' airred for the first time ANYWHERE. Because of the silence from TPTB A LOT of fans sat on the fence until it was confirmed on screen. Theres been increasing mention in press including this month's 'Cult Times' whose letters page was almost entirely made up of fans writing in to shout about Carson's death and support the campaign. They and TV Zone (two big international genre publications) have stated more then once they've already been inundated with letters and continue to be so.

EVERY. SINGLE. LETTER/EMAIL makes a difference.

As for being 'final', we dont know if the scene at the end was an apparition, hallucination or he was an ascended being, it was rather ambiguous. Remember, 'No one really dies in Scifi', they just need the right motivation to bring him back. One things that always sticks in my head from 'Misbegotten' was the fact Michael had him for 2 DAYS before he was rescued, what happened in that time? Its a BIG unansweared question...there are many more! NJ Smith's comments were also ambiguous. He said Carson 'disappeared', but to most it looks like they just killed him outright. Janet's death was FINAL, but Carson's has enough of a door open to come back.

Hey look on the brightside. This campaign IS and WILL get the show lots of much needed publicity. I love SGA, I want to see it continue and I believe it NEEDS Carson to that. If Nothing else SUPPORTING the SaveCarson campaign will also SUPPORT SGA! And they could easily spin the events of 'Sunday' and his return into a fantastic story arc for next season.

Celsius
January 29th, 2007, 06:38 PM
I think these kind of episodes are needed sometimes, keeping the same cast forever is very static, something that I've noticed on SG-1, though it's very different with 4 or 5 main characters as opposed to 7 on SGA. I think it's unrealistic for everyone to survive every major accident, so I think it's a nice touch of realism when a main character dies in an event that would usually kill an extra. I loved Carson, but I really enjoyed how this episode was presented. Beautiful acting, some of the best writing from the series. 9/10 because I feel that the post-death scenes should have taken up more of the episode.

lari_sga_fan
January 29th, 2007, 08:38 PM
hey, sorry ive been in 'isolation' lately. so is this where Carson dies? i mean definitely? and what about Shep being married and having a son?

larisse

PG15
January 29th, 2007, 08:40 PM
1. Yes, Carson dies in this episode.
2. Shep was married, but didn't have any children. It didn't work out (obviously).

the old briar pipe
January 29th, 2007, 09:02 PM
2. Shep was married, but didn't have any children. It didn't work out (obviously).

Did he actually state he didn't have kids? *is reluctant to flip through the ep again because then I'll watch the whole thing*

Lauriel
January 29th, 2007, 09:23 PM
Did he actually state he didn't have kids? *is reluctant to flip through the ep again because then I'll watch the whole thing*

He doesn't say he has no kids in Sunday, but he said he doesn't have kids in Season 1 in Childhoods End.

Edit: Here you go - I dug up the quote:

KERAS: Do you have young?
SHEPPARD: Me? No. Not yet, anyway. You?

Night Spring
January 29th, 2007, 09:47 PM
KERAS: Do you have young?
SHEPPARD: Me? No. Not yet, anyway. You?
Am I the only one thinking "Not that you know of, anyway"?

scarimor
January 30th, 2007, 03:35 AM
Am I the only one thinking "Not that you know of, anyway"?
No you ain't, lol! :)

tjkitten
January 31st, 2007, 02:03 PM
I liked this episode. Gave me more information regarding the character's personal lives, hobbies, etc. However, I has heart broken when I realized what has happened to Carson. He was a wonderful person: gentle, kind and caring. Why did he has to go..... :sheppardanime32:

AutumnDream
February 1st, 2007, 02:08 AM
I think these kind of episodes are needed sometimes, keeping the same cast forever is very static, something that I've noticed on SG-1, though it's very different with 4 or 5 main characters as opposed to 7 on SGA. I think it's unrealistic for everyone to survive every major accident, so I think it's a nice touch of realism when a main character dies in an event that would usually kill an extra. I loved Carson, but I really enjoyed how this episode was presented. Beautiful acting, some of the best writing from the series. 9/10 because I feel that the post-death scenes should have taken up more of the episode.

Some of the best writing in the series, eh?

PTB1: Okay, time to add a pinch of dramatic spice! We need a way to kill that Irish guy.
PTB2: Scottish, wasn't he?
PTB1: Oh right. So any ideas?
PTB2: He gets shot on a medical mission in the field.
PTB1: No, we did that with Janet on SG1.
PTB2: Since when has that ever stopped us?
PTB1: Well, I feel nice today so we'll give him a non-recycled death scenario.
PTB2: Okay, how could we introduce him to a dangerous element otherwise?
PTB1: He's in the medical room most of the time. What could be dangerous in there?
PTB2: There could be a patient with a deadly and contagious disease.
PTB1: No, not flashy enough. We need something flashy so the teenagers will watch. Like explosions.
PTB2: Well, what's going to explode in the operating room?
PTB1: Maybe he has to operate on guy who got hit with a magical beam gun that makes you explode when you least expect it.
PTB2: That would be a pretty sweet beam gun.
PTB1: Yeah, like - it creates an bomb in your body.
PTB2: Wait, didn't we do that with Cassandra in "Singularity".
PTB1: Damn! Okay, the magical beam could create a tumor that has to be operated on. That would make it more "medical", I think. The scottish guy was a surgeon, right?
PTB2: I think so.
PTB1: So he has to operate on it to save the guy, or something.
PTB2: But he knows it could explode AT ANY TIME! So that'd make him all heroic and stuff.
PTB1: Maybe if he's heroic enough in his last scene the lemming won't be so shrill about it.
PTB2: Okay, totally sweet. Episode written. Let's go watch some Dragon Ball Z for ideas on the season finale.
PTB1: Cool, I'll get the popcorn.

nonniemous
February 1st, 2007, 08:40 AM
Some of the best writing in the series, eh?

PTB1: Okay, time to add a pinch of dramatic spice! We need a way to kill that Irish guy.
PTB2: Scottish, wasn't he?
PTB1: Oh right. So any ideas?
PTB2: He gets shot on a medical mission in the field.
PTB1: No, we did that with Janet on SG1.
PTB2: Since when has that ever stopped us?
PTB1: Well, I feel nice today so we'll give him a non-recycled death scenario.
PTB2: Okay, how could we introduce him to a dangerous element otherwise?
PTB1: He's in the medical room most of the time. What could be dangerous in there?
PTB2: There could be a patient with a deadly and contagious disease.
PTB1: No, not flashy enough. We need something flashy so the teenagers will watch. Like explosions.
PTB2: Well, what's going to explode in the operating room?
PTB1: Maybe he has to operate on guy who got hit with a magical beam gun that makes you explode when you least expect it.
PTB2: That would be a pretty sweet beam gun.
PTB1: Yeah, like - it creates an bomb in your body.
PTB2: Wait, didn't we do that with Cassandra in "Singularity".
PTB1: Damn! Okay, the magical beam could create a tumor that has to be operated on. That would make it more "medical", I think. The scottish guy was a surgeon, right?
PTB2: I think so.
PTB1: So he has to operate on it to save the guy, or something.
PTB2: But he knows it could explode AT ANY TIME! So that'd make him all heroic and stuff.
PTB1: Maybe if he's heroic enough in his last scene the lemming won't be so shrill about it.
PTB2: Okay, totally sweet. Episode written. Let's go watch some Dragon Ball Z for ideas on the season finale.
PTB1: Cool, I'll get the popcorn.

ROFLOL! That's probably about it--oh but don't forget the conversation about bringing in some young pretty thang as a replacement... Gah.

the old briar pipe
February 1st, 2007, 01:20 PM
Some of the best writing in the series, eh?

:lol:

Wait, you forgot a bit!

PTB1: Don't we need a B plot? Or maybe an A plot, since the exploding's not going to take very long.
PTB2: Um. Well, we have that script of Martin's we shot down last time. Something about a day off?
PTB1: Booooring.
PTB2: But with explosions?
PTB1: Well, as long as we put lots of hints of sex in it and at least two explosions. Can't get by on just one.
PTB2: And let's hurt Teyla right at the beginning, too, so we don't have to write too much for her.
PTB1: Sure. We do that all the time anyway.

I firmly believe the basic idea behind Sunday was already written out long before the "kill the doctor" part came up.

nonniemous
February 1st, 2007, 01:24 PM
I firmly believe the basic idea behind Sunday was already written out long before the "kill the doctor" part came up.

Especially after watching "Vengeance"! It very much feels as if it was originally planned with Carson in mind, the way the scenes with Michael were shot. But then oops! Exploding tumors, no more doctor. Guess we'd better find someone else to insert.

Then again, give the lack of quality in the writing in "Sunday" and "Vengeance", maybe we're just expecting too much of TPTB in general.

the old briar pipe
February 1st, 2007, 01:29 PM
Especially after watching "Vengeance"! It very much feels as if it was originally planned with Carson in mind, the way the scenes with Michael were shot. But then oops! Exploding tumors, no more doctor. Guess we'd better find someone else to insert.

Then again, give the lack of quality in the writing in "Sunday" and "Vengeance", maybe we're just expecting too much of TPTB in general.

I am just sitting down to watch "Vengeance" now, as I've been working my little tush off at two jobs since Monday. Will wait to comment until I finish. ;)

Celsius
February 1st, 2007, 05:37 PM
Some of the best writing in the series, eh?

PTB1: Okay, time to add a pinch of dramatic spice! We need a way to kill that Irish guy.
PTB2: Scottish, wasn't he?
PTB1: Oh right. So any ideas?
PTB2: He gets shot on a medical mission in the field.
PTB1: No, we did that with Janet on SG1.
PTB2: Since when has that ever stopped us?
PTB1: Well, I feel nice today so we'll give him a non-recycled death scenario.
PTB2: Okay, how could we introduce him to a dangerous element otherwise?
PTB1: He's in the medical room most of the time. What could be dangerous in there?
PTB2: There could be a patient with a deadly and contagious disease.
PTB1: No, not flashy enough. We need something flashy so the teenagers will watch. Like explosions.
PTB2: Well, what's going to explode in the operating room?
PTB1: Maybe he has to operate on guy who got hit with a magical beam gun that makes you explode when you least expect it.
PTB2: That would be a pretty sweet beam gun.
PTB1: Yeah, like - it creates an bomb in your body.
PTB2: Wait, didn't we do that with Cassandra in "Singularity".
PTB1: Damn! Okay, the magical beam could create a tumor that has to be operated on. That would make it more "medical", I think. The scottish guy was a surgeon, right?
PTB2: I think so.
PTB1: So he has to operate on it to save the guy, or something.
PTB2: But he knows it could explode AT ANY TIME! So that'd make him all heroic and stuff.
PTB1: Maybe if he's heroic enough in his last scene the lemming won't be so shrill about it.
PTB2: Okay, totally sweet. Episode written. Let's go watch some Dragon Ball Z for ideas on the season finale.
PTB1: Cool, I'll get the popcorn.

Not that I don't appreciate the spoof; nice work ;), but I do feel that the writing post-exeunt of Carson was particularly well written. Plus the scenes with Rodney and his lady friend, Shepherd and Ronon. Muchly good! The main reason that I would give the episode less than a perfect score though is because of the tumor storyline which was completely weird to say the least.

Athosian Death facilitator
February 2nd, 2007, 05:28 AM
<DIV ALIGN="center"><TABLE WIDTH="450" BORDER="0" CELLSPACING="0" CELLPADDING="7"><TR><TD><DIV ALIGN="left"><FONT FACE="Verdana, Arial, san-serif" SIZE="2" COLOR="#000000"><A HREF="http://www.gateworld.net/atlantis/s3/317.shtml"><IMG SRC="http://www.gateworld.net/atlantis/graphics/317.jpg" WIDTH="160" HEIGHT="120" ALIGN="right" HSPACE="10" VSPACE="2" BORDER="0" STYLE="border: 1px black solid" ALT="Visit the Episode Guide"></A><FONT SIZE="1" COLOR="#888888">ATLANTIS SEASON THREE</FONT>
<FONT SIZE="4"><A HREF="http://www.gateworld.net/atlantis/s3/317.shtml" STYLE="text-decoration: none">SUNDAY</A></FONT>
<FONT SIZE="1">EPISODE NUMBER - 317</FONT>
<IMG SRC="/images/clear.gif" WIDTH="1" HEIGHT="10" ALT="">
The team tries to relax during a mandatory day off, until an explosion leaves three people dead -- and a scientist is believed to be another walking time bomb.

<FONT SIZE="1" COLOR="#888888"><B><A HREF="http://www.gateworld.net/atlantis/s3/317.shtml">VISIT THE EPISODE GUIDE ></A></B>
SPOILERS! PHOTOS! AND MORE!</FONT></FONT></DIV></TD></TR></TABLE></DIV>



Okay this episode is retty good at the start it gives atlantis more of a human touch but atlantis's heart and soul went out the window when Carson Beckett
died he was funny and he has the ancient gene and he didnt ascende
imean what was that.

I'mean c'mon i want coolness and thid episode had a really poor ending i mean the death is suppose to meaningful or is MGM having pay cuts. First Sg-1 now Beckett Ford and now Weir guys we must get ford weir and beckett back in the show some how even ifthey die i want the best out of starhate and im getting crap...

bcfc
February 2nd, 2007, 06:06 PM
I really enjoyed this which supprised me from reading the spoilers but it showed how the different relationships have evolved over the three years and it was done very well.

The only down fall was the exploding Tumours (What?) :confused: surely they could have come up with somthing better for Carson.

However it was touching at the end with Rodney and Carson

Very Sad!

:beckett:

katrin
February 7th, 2007, 10:39 AM
Am I the only one thinking "Not that you know of, anyway"?

i took one look at the post and went


*UUUUUUHh rrrrrrr * shepp married *****:sheppardanime31:

Daniel Jackson
February 9th, 2007, 09:36 PM
If you have not seen "Sunday," click back, because this thread will contain spoilers!

I just saw "Sunday" with my dad tonight, and I have two major complaints about this episode. First off, I got bored with the episode depicting Sunday from everyone's perspective. The plot didn't kick in until the end, so it felt like a 12-minute episode. :rolleyes: My second complaint is how they killed off Dr. Beckett. I don't mind that the character was killed off, but he died saving someone we've never heard of and will likely never see again. It would be far more effective if the other person with the explosive tumor was Teyla and Sheppard had to order Beckett to abandon her, then Beckett risks his life to save her and ultimately dies so she can live. Instead, we get Patient I-already-forgot-his-name. :rolleyes:

nonniemous
February 9th, 2007, 09:51 PM
It would be far more effective if the other person with the explosive tumor was Teyla and Sheppard had to order Beckett to abandon her, then Beckett risks his life to save her and ultimately dies so she can live. Instead, we get Patient I-already-forgot-his-name. :rolleyes:

:weiranime33:

You know, that just might have sold me on the episode, too. Wow. Just that twist and his death becomes so much more meaningful in terms of their overall story arc and the show itself.

Wow. Why in the WORLD no one at Bridge could think that through...just goes to show the total paucity of creativity there right now.

PG15
February 9th, 2007, 10:23 PM
I disagree. I think a no-name is what we needed, since otherwise it would be obvious that whoever it is would survive (given that we didn't hear rumors that say otherwise).

Besides, showing Carson saving a "random" guy just shows that he's willing to risk his life for anyone, like a good doctor should.

Just my 2 cents.

Daniel Jackson
February 9th, 2007, 10:33 PM
I disagree. I think a no-name is what we needed, since otherwise it would be obvious that whoever it is would survive (given that we didn't hear rumors that say otherwise).
It didn't work for me, because I didn't care if he lived or died since we haven't seen him before and will likely never see him again.


Besides, showing Carson saving a "random" guy just shows that he's willing to risk his life for anyone, like a good doctor should.
It would have been more effective if the patient Carson cared so much about was someone the audience also cared about.

Lauriel
February 10th, 2007, 03:28 AM
I disagree. I think a no-name is what we needed, since otherwise it would be obvious that whoever it is would survive (given that we didn't hear rumors that say otherwise).

Besides, showing Carson saving a "random" guy just shows that he's willing to risk his life for anyone, like a good doctor should.

Just my 2 cents.
I agree with this. Even though we know Carson would risk his life for anyone, it was much more moving actually seeing it.

It didn't work for me, because I didn't care if he lived or died since we haven't seen him before and will likely never see him again.


It would have been more effective if the patient Carson cared so much about was someone the audience also cared about.
I don't think it would have been more effective. We are invested in Carson's character, and we care about Carson. Think about it- would his death have been as emotionally impacting if you also shared the relief that "Thank God Teyla/John/Rodney was saved?" Patient whatever allowed us to focus on Carson and our emotional reaction was solely to Carson's actions and death.

nonniemous
February 10th, 2007, 06:00 AM
I don't think it would have been more effective. We are invested in Carson's character, and we care about Carson. Think about it- would his death have been as emotionally impacting if you also shared the relief that "Thank God Teyla/John/Rodney was saved?" Patient whatever allowed us to focus on Carson and our emotional reaction was solely to Carson's actions and death.

I don't agree AT all. For me, it just made his death that much more random and pointless, that it was to save what was a redshirt, a character that we had never seen before and will likely never see again. It reduced Carson's death to a stunt, plain and simple. It would have been much more meaningful in terms of story arc and the show in general if it had been for a character we were invested in--even someone such as Kolya or Sora. Anyone but random "yellow shirt" #4.

Besides, this episode wasn't focused on Carson, at all, and it wasn't about his death. That was simply the vehicle they used to write about the way the rest of the characters handled their day off--and then, OH, NOES! BAD THINGS! WOES! And again, it's not about Carson, it's about how everyone reacts to his deaht--and how Rodney deals with his guilt. This was never, EVER an episode "about" Carson, not like Rodney got "Tao" and M&MM and GUP, or Sheppard got Epiphany and CG, or Weir RW. If the most recent interview with McGiillion didn't make it plain enough, this episode was nothing but a cheap ratings gimmick through and through.

Daniel Jackson
February 10th, 2007, 10:38 AM
I don't think it would have been more effective. We are invested in Carson's character, and we care about Carson. Think about it- would his death have been as emotionally impacting if you also shared the relief that "Thank God Teyla/John/Rodney was saved?" Patient whatever allowed us to focus on Carson and our emotional reaction was solely to Carson's actions and death.
Carson isn't real, he's a fictional TV character, so his death doesn't impact me if he dies saving someone we haven't seen before nor will see again. It leaves me feeling meh. They botched Beckett's death like they did Doc. Frasier's death on SG-1 where she died off screen! :rolleyes: I don't count the video recording, because it was shown after the event occured.

If they can kill off Dr. Beckett, then they could also have killed off a different main character. While Teyla is a great character, she is not necessary for the show to continue. Playing with the audience by asking, "Will Teyla die, will Beckett die, or will they both die," would have been far better than the story we got.

Lauriel
February 10th, 2007, 04:45 PM
I don't agree AT all. For me, it just made his death that much more random and pointless, that it was to save what was a redshirt, a character that we had never seen before and will likely never see again. It reduced Carson's death to a stunt, plain and simple. It would have been much more meaningful in terms of story arc and the show in general if it had been for a character we were invested in--even someone such as Kolya or Sora. Anyone but random "yellow shirt" #4.

Besides, this episode wasn't focused on Carson, at all, and it wasn't about his death. That was simply the vehicle they used to write about the way the rest of the characters handled their day off--and then, OH, NOES! BAD THINGS! WOES! And again, it's not about Carson, it's about how everyone reacts to his deaht--and how Rodney deals with his guilt. This was never, EVER an episode "about" Carson, not like Rodney got "Tao" and M&MM and GUP, or Sheppard got Epiphany and CG, or Weir RW. If the most recent interview with McGiillion didn't make it plain enough, this episode was nothing but a cheap ratings gimmick through and through.

I agree with you - I think it would have been much better to have Carson go as a part of a major story arc. Personally I would have liked, instead of Sunday and Irresponsible, to have a double ep where both Carson and Kolya died. I think Sunday was contrived merely to kill off Carson. I did enjoy the 'day off' aspect of the show though.

My point was within the confines of the show that we did get. They set up Sunday this way, and the way they presented Carson's death within this ep, I think it was more effective with the redshirt for the reasons I stated above.

Lauriel
February 10th, 2007, 04:50 PM
Carson isn't real, he's a fictional TV character, so his death doesn't impact me if he dies saving someone we haven't seen before nor will see again. It leaves me feeling meh. They botched Beckett's death like they did Doc. Frasier's death on SG-1 where she died off screen! :rolleyes: I don't count the video recording, because it was shown after the event occured.


You may not get emotionally invested in the characters, but you would be in a minority. Many of the threads on this forum are about characters and the emotional attatchment fans have to them.

And resorting to the "this isn't real - it's a tv show" is the weakest form of argument. We know. We are discussing the tv show. We haven't flipped our lids. We chose to discuss based on what is presented to us, what we may like to see that isn't presented to us, and how we feel about it. It doesn't have to be reality in order for us to discuss it, nor does it have to be reality for us to develop an emotional bond with the characters - good storytelling will develop an attatchment to the characters. Please don't insult us with that tired line.

Daniel Jackson
February 10th, 2007, 08:42 PM
You may not get emotionally invested in the characters, but you would be in a minority. Many of the threads on this forum are about characters and the emotional attatchment fans have to them.
I get emotionally attached to characters with one or more episodes. I don't get attached to extras.


And resorting to the "this isn't real - it's a tv show" is the weakest form of argument. We know. We are discussing the tv show. We haven't flipped our lids. We chose to discuss based on what is presented to us, what we may like to see that isn't presented to us, and how we feel about it. It doesn't have to be reality in order for us to discuss it, nor does it have to be reality for us to develop an emotional bond with the characters - good storytelling will develop an attatchment to the characters. Please don't insult us with that tired line.
"This isn't real, it's a TV show," was not my argument at all. :rolleyes: I was simply trying to communicate that I don't care if an extra lives or dies, because he's not real. I only care about the regulars and guest stars.

Laeren
February 11th, 2007, 09:04 PM
All I can say is Stargate needs to stop killing off its doctors. Otherwise there won't be anyone to perform miracles on them off-screen so that in the next episode they're all back to normal with no ill effects from the previous.

I will miss Carson. I wish they hadn't done this.

Daniel Jackson
February 11th, 2007, 09:08 PM
Killing off the doctors? They've only done it twice, once on each show. Doc. Frasier was only killed off, because they thought they were ending the final season. Why Doc. Beckett was killed off is beyond me. :confused: I guess they were going for dramatic effect. Too bad people complain instead of just taking in whut happened.

Celsius
February 12th, 2007, 04:42 AM
I don't agree AT all. For me, it just made his death that much more random and pointless

I think that was the episode's point; death IS random and pointless, but it still happens, even to people you don't expect to die, and care about. Having said that, I think "Heroes" made this point much more effectively, and I'm not entirely sure it was necessary to do such a similar thing again (despite the fact I loved the writing and set-up of the episode).

nonniemous
February 12th, 2007, 06:38 AM
I think that was the episode's point; death IS random and pointless, but it still happens, even to people you don't expect to die, and care about. Having said that, I think "Heroes" made this point much more effectively, and I'm not entirely sure it was necessary to do such a similar thing again (despite the fact I loved the writing and set-up of the episode).

And my point is and will always be that I do not need SGA to educate me on the fact that death is pointless and random. I have had that rubbed in well enough in my own life. If I forget, I can watch the evening news or BSG. SGA set itself up as something very different than that, and "s*** happens and then you die" with a main character is not a workable plot device within the universe they themselves created and sold to us.

"Heroes" worked as well as it did because it had a purpose in the overall story arc, it made a point. (Not that I was happy about Janet's demise, but it was handled far better than Carson's.) Carson's death did not serve the story, overall or episodic, in any fashion whatsoever, and that leads us right back to poor writing and poor production. I don't care if the episode itself was stellar. (It wasn't.) All "Sunday" did was simply dispose of a character TPTB wanted to get rid of for whatever inane reasons they had. It was nothing but a pointless ratings stunt, as the recent interview with PM proves.

Lauriel
February 12th, 2007, 12:06 PM
And my point is and will always be that I do not need SGA to educate me on the fact that death is pointless and random. I have had that rubbed in well enough in my own life. If I forget, I can watch the evening news or BSG. SGA set itself up as something very different than that, and "s*** happens and then you die" with a main character is not a workable plot device within the universe they themselves created and sold to us.
.

To be fair, that is your image of SGA, not necessarily one shared by TPTB. Grodin died in s1 purely to highlight the danger they were in and to underscore the fact that people can and will die.

nonniemous
February 12th, 2007, 12:14 PM
To be fair, that is your image of SGA, not necessarily one shared by TPTB. Grodin died in s1 purely to highlight the danger they were in and to underscore the fact that people can and will die.

And it served the both the episodic and the larger story arc for that season, as well as the general set up of the universe they created. I was sorry to see him go, but it made sense storywise. I couldn't argue with how it was done or why. Beckett's death, on the other hand, was none of these things.

Lt. Colonel Ryu Gaia
February 18th, 2007, 12:37 PM
Am I the only one who thinks that this should have been 3.19 instead of 3.17?The fans would have complained less if "Vengeance" had aired as 3.17, "Submersion" as 3.18, "Sunday" as 3.19, and then "First Strike." That way Carson would have been mentioned in the subsequent episode. It would have felt... more right.

Night Spring
February 18th, 2007, 01:07 PM
Am I the only one who thinks that this should have been 3.19 instead of 3.17?The fans would have complained less if "Vengeance" had aired as 3.17, "Submersion" as 3.18, "Sunday" as 3.19, and then "First Strike." That way Carson would have been mentioned in the subsequent episode. It would have felt... more right.
Hmmm, a death of a major character immediately followed by an "Atlantis in dire straits" episode might feel like dramatic overkill, though.

I tend to agree that they should have aired Vengeance before Sunday, *and* had Carson in it. In fact, aside from the fact that they had to air episodes with Carson in them before Sunday, it could have been placed anywhere in the lineup -- it was a totally stand alone episode, nothing in it related to any other episode whatsoever.

Diesel Vanilla
February 18th, 2007, 03:00 PM
Am I the only one who thinks that this should have been 3.19 instead of 3.17?The fans would have complained less if "Vengeance" had aired as 3.17, "Submersion" as 3.18, "Sunday" as 3.19, and then "First Strike." That way Carson would have been mentioned in the subsequent episode. It would have felt... more right.

It would have made infinitely more sense to do it in that order. And as Night Spring said, they could have then had Beckett in 'Vengeance'.

That could have opened up that dwindling plot into something really significant... and then they could have kept Beckett alive for a really great arc, realising that he's really rather grand after all! :o

Yes, Lt. Colonel... your reasoning works for me.

TraGisK^
February 20th, 2007, 09:43 PM
The way Carson died and talk rondey and him had at the last!
God i loved it.
dont get me wrong damn carson was my fav in atlantis. but they handel hes Death good, i really really enjoey it.
even got a tear in my eye :D

Lt. Colonel Ryu Gaia
February 20th, 2007, 09:44 PM
Might wanna try posting in the episode thread next time.

bcfc
February 21st, 2007, 01:04 PM
Just aired in the U.K, Altough this is the second time I've seen it still very sad especially with Rodney at the end.

:(

Eye Of Ra
February 21st, 2007, 01:07 PM
just watched it good ep but sad.

chevroneight
February 21st, 2007, 01:08 PM
NOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO OOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO OOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO!!!!!

my poor carson :(

aaron54
February 21st, 2007, 01:10 PM
hhmm its a shame to see him gone but i didnt really like that episode dont get me wrong the stroy line was good and the end bit is a nice toutch but i really hated the way it was edited lol it really irritated me the way it goes to presetnt then back five hours then back to present then back again that really annoys me :D and the ball of fire that incinerated him was really bad i know it can be hard to do but i just think it looked really crap

it will be a shame to see him gone he was one of my favorite people

and why everytime i whatch atlantis do i always get a headache lol i never get that with SG-1

Gatebunny
February 21st, 2007, 01:18 PM
Very touching episode. I always like the ones that get closer to characters... the fact that everyone brushed Carson off (when he was so obviously excited to go) just made everything seem so much more poignant.

A real lump-in-throater, this one... had to really struggle to not lose it in front of baffled hubby (he's not an SGA fan... ;)), but then the bagpipes came... waaaa!

Trialia
February 21st, 2007, 01:22 PM
I couldn't be bothered to obtain the ep by other means after hearing the casting spoilers for season four, so I decided to wait and withhold judgement on it until it aired here, which it just has.

My reaction to this-- What's the BBcode for the "rolling eyes" smiley? The two words that would sum up what I think of this episode, one I'm not supposed to use on GW and "please" I can, put 'em together and you'll pretty much see it.

Pathetic. What the hell?

To start with, both John and Elizabeth were written so weirdly in this episode it was as if they'd been replaced with pod people up until just before the explosion that killed Carson (don't try to push that lousy writing out of sight with "it's their day off", it doesn't wash). Elizabeth never smiles that much even when she's off duty, from past experience - the episode prior to this that she'd smiled as much as she did here was The Long Goodbye, and that wasn't even her! I doubt Mike Branton could make her smile that much when he's so unimportant that we haven't even seen him in a single episode before this. Again: "B****, please."

Explosive tumours? One of the dumbest sci-fi plot devices ever, even if that was intended. It wasn't even interesting because we barely got into any of the science behind it before the last one went "boom". And using it as a way to kill off a main character is really, really stupid. Plus, in the scene where Carson was actually killed, fading out his face?! That's as much of a cop-out as killing a character off-screen! Could have just had him sort of hurled at the camera and then manipulated the angle so it looked like he was being thrown right into it before he vanished from sight, but as it was, it just looked silly.

Rodney's guilt over what happened, I can believe. His scene with Katie was done pretty well, too. Ronon giving Rodney what comfort he did, I can also see easily because what he said is the way I've always felt he thought about that kind of thing anyway. And the pall-bearers were well chosen. Also, Teyla getting up from her infirmary bed to go to the memorial, that was good and something I could definitely see her doing.

The rest? I think I'm just going to pretend this episode didn't happen, because it was well under par for this show. Then again, I'm beginning to expect that. :(

P-90_177
February 21st, 2007, 01:57 PM
I don't know what you mean about the weir and sheppard thing. I thought they acted the same way i'd expect them to. They were just being average every day people on their day off. I thought it works well. Weir has to have ome fun sometime and John didn't act any differently to normal.

Trialia
February 21st, 2007, 02:17 PM
I don't know what you mean about the weir and sheppard thing. I thought they acted the same way i'd expect them to. They were just being average every day people on their day off. I thought it works well. Weir has to have ome fun sometime and John didn't act any differently to normal.
Don't get me wrong, I've seen her smile before, seen her laugh, but it seemed... overdone, this time. As for Sheppard, he just felt 'off' somehow. Like he was just talking and completely ignoring anything Ronon was trying to say to him.

Terrah
February 21st, 2007, 02:20 PM
I really don't know why they killed off Carson :( I didn't tell my other half what was going to happen and he couldn't believe it either.

I agree with Gatebunny the way everyone gave him the brush off, so sad. :(

JackDaniels
February 21st, 2007, 02:33 PM
I'll admit it...I cried.
I try to shut myself off from spoilers and so although I was aware Carson would be leaving the show, I had no idea of when or how (or if it was to be permanent). I think I was half way through the episode when it suddenyl occured to me what might actually be happening. I think the episode, though limited for some of the characters, showed the true nature of Carson. whilst Rodney was the only one on screen to acknowledge the way he treated Carson, all of them, in some way brushed him off - not wanting to go with him or not focusing on him fully while he spoke to them. This was perhaps the true message of Sunday - the life of Carson. He was truly integral to the team. The way he supported Teyla when she was injured and the comfort she drew from him speaking to her, the way he seemed genuinely pleased for Elizabeth as he watched her on her date. The way he put the lives of others before his own (both in working on the guy with the bomb and his decision to work on his day off) and the 'rodney-esque' way he acted after he realised the mistake he would be making if he'd asked that insane woman to go on the fishing trip. Whilst I am still hoping for a Daniel style return, I feel like we got to know Carson in these three years in the way it took Janet Fraiser in seven. Why they feel the need to kill off medical officers I don't know, but at least he, like Janet, went out saving the lives of others - selflessly.

As for the rest of the episode, I think the time changes could have been handled better, because although it was nice to see everyone reacting in their own way, having Radek or Rodney repeating the same thing several times seemed pointless. I also have to agree with several points that the exploding tumours was highly underdeveloped - but obviously it was needed for the tension created in the OR.

I know this is an episode I'll watch again, and will probably cry again at. Long Live Carson - "No-one ever had a bad word to say about him" but I can't help feeling that we all wanted many more words from him.

P.S. On a vain note - the scientist who went on a date with elizabeth was hot!

shelsfc
February 21st, 2007, 02:33 PM
I posted my opinions on this ep after reading the spoilers, and actually seeing it has just reinforced them. As nice as it was to see the character moments (because they are so rare) it just was not worth losing Carson for. They could very easily have had a beautiful character ep without killing anyone off. As much as I love angst, this just seemed ridiculous to me. Exploding tumour...come on. If nothing else that completely blows away their protestations that they have to kill people off to 'keep it realistic'.

beale947
February 21st, 2007, 02:41 PM
I posted alot earlier in this thread, and after seeing it. It just made me more annoyed. This is not worthy of being under the title of Stargate

The story was bad, Sheppard and Weir, I dunno who they were replaced with but they wern't Weir and sheppard. The only good parts and chararters were rodney, Teyla and a tiny bit ronan when he was consoling rodney.
The funeral was good in whatever badness it was shrouded in. And the part at the end between Rodney and Carson was good, but thats it. I so hope he ascended.

2/10

Angelus.
February 21st, 2007, 04:10 PM
I find it very sad about the Doc going out like that, and it was a total shock he was a great guy, so that said I was always brought up to believe the good guys lived in the end. Hope they find a way to bring him back it won't be the same without him.:sheppard:

Arthur
February 21st, 2007, 04:19 PM
well i've not been so disappointed by an episode for a long time. I was looking forward to this episode, not knowing that it was Carson's death episode. I simply cannot believe why they keep getting rid of some of the most interesting characters in the series or SG1 for that matter. It simply wasn't necessary to kill Carson off, so I just hope he got to ascend, though i simply dont' think so. And reducing Weir's involvement is another negative step.
Am I the only person who simply doesn't get the characters of Teyla and Ronin? I don't dislike them but neither of them seems to add any real interest to the story, whereas Carson and Weir are to me, both interesting characters and strong personalities. All Ronin and Teyla ever do is to look a bit mean and fight well with sticks........
For me the only reasons to continue watching are Rodney and the hope that Carter's arrival in the Atlantis universe will be interesting. HOwever i don't put it past the producers to kill either of them off and introduce a couple of new people who fight with sticks instead! I hope i'm wrong!

Dave C
February 21st, 2007, 04:22 PM
It would have made infinitely more sense to do it in that order. And as Night Spring said, they could have then had Beckett in 'Vengeance'.

That could have opened up that dwindling plot into something really significant... and then they could have kept Beckett alive for a really great arc, realising that he's really rather grand after all! :o

Yes, Lt. Colonel... your reasoning works for me.

agreed but if they wanted to kill him off then why not in vengence, it was his arc after all and would have had real significance for s4

also any other scots who got choked up when the bagpipes started

jannagalaxy
February 21st, 2007, 04:33 PM
I cried my eyes out! :(

Anubis69
February 21st, 2007, 04:52 PM
also any other scots who got choked up when the bagpipes started
*meekly raises hand* In a manly way though. :P

Knowing it was going to happen at the end of the episode just made that first 30mins horrible to watch! One of the most genuine characters in TV being knocked back left, right and centre and then dying. Come on. That's just awful. Still, he kept upbeat and then went back to work. The guy's a legend.

Still, it was an enjoyable episode and, as Celsius said on the previous page, highlighted just how random death is. I completely understand why TPTB did it and all i hope is that he's mentioned in the development in Rodney, or another character, in the future.

Long live Carson!

Clark'sGirl
February 22nd, 2007, 05:00 AM
Despite avoiding all the spoilers and all the other save carson threads I was still aware of what was going to happen to him this season and what ep is was going to be in. Sigh

However I hadn't noticed what ep was being broadcasted last night when I taped it. So when I watched it this morning while getting ready for work it hadn't occured to me which one it was until nearly the end, when he's operating on the stupid scientist guy.

All I can say is Nooooooo!

It was a good episode, I thought everyone was relatively in character, loved Carson desperate to go fishing, made me think of O'Neill. And glad to see another Scot who can't stand Golf!

Rodney was great, loved the stuff with his girlfriend, can't for the life of me remember her name, and I liked the Elizabeth/Hot Guy stuff.



also any other scots who got choked up when the bagpipes started

I had a lump in my thoat during the eulogy but when the bagpipes started, that was it, make up had to be re-done.

Poor Carson, I hate that this was done to him.

Lauriel
February 22nd, 2007, 05:17 AM
I had a lump in my thoat during the eulogy but when the bagpipes started, that was it, make up had to be re-done.

Poor Carson, I hate that this was done to him.

I hope you don't have to be Scottish for that! That's where I lost it too. I was really proud of myself for not crying, then the bagpipes started and that was it - no hope of staying dry-eyed. :o

TJuk
February 22nd, 2007, 05:47 AM
I think its an absolutely bloody travesty they killed him off. If anyone wants to know why (well as close to why as we've got right now) http://www.savecarsonbeckett.com has posted snippets from Paul McGillion's EXCLUSIVE interview with Starburst magazine. Apparently TPTB were worried because SG1 got cancelled and decide they MIGHT need to 'shake things up a bit'....simple as that. Its a really heartbreaking interview, you can tell he was totally gutted as to WHY they would do this. Shameless shock tastic in a below par ep merely written (as we speculated) to bump off the character.

And yes, while I didn't like the Eulogy (as they had poor Torri/Elizbath feeding us the partyline 'People die') the bagpipes, John and Rodney's faces really choked me up!!!

:(

Lauriel
February 22nd, 2007, 06:14 AM
I think its an absolutely bloody travesty they killed him off. If anyone wants to know why (well as close to why as we've got right now) http://www.savecarsonbeckett.com has posted snippets from Paul McGillion's EXCLUSIVE interview with Starburst magazine. Apparently TPTB were worried because SG1 got cancelled and decide they MIGHT need to 'shake things up a bit'....simple as that. Its a really heartbreaking interview, you can tell he was totally gutted as to WHY they would do this. Shameless shock tastic in a below par ep merely written (as we speculated) to bump off the character.
I know, I've read some snippets here and there from PM, and it's so sad.


And yes, while I didn't like the Eulogy (as they had poor Torri/Elizbath feeding us the partyline 'People die') the bagpipes, John and Rodney's faces really choked me up!!!

:(
Didn't they act that brilliantly! Kudos to DH and JF, they did a marvellous job with it.

shelsfc
February 22nd, 2007, 06:33 AM
And yes, while I didn't like the Eulogy (as they had poor Torri/Elizbath feeding us the partyline 'People die') the bagpipes, John and Rodney's faces really choked me up!!!

:(

That was heartbreaking...JF & DH did such a good job with that, Rachel & David N too. If the Scottish flag on the coffin hadn't started me crying, their faces would have :(

Elite Anubis Guard
February 22nd, 2007, 07:48 AM
I thought it was a fantastic episode, without the killing of Beckett. I love these character episodes, and I loved the moments between all the characters. But in the end, think of all the things that have happened because of Carson. All the retrovirus stuff. I'm sure he's broken that oath in some way with the stuff he's experimented on. Somehow, they would have had to have dealt with that and killing him off was a shortcut.

Anyway, I was a lil' emotional during the eulogy scene. I really felt for Rodney.

Falcon Horus
February 22nd, 2007, 08:06 AM
I so hope he ascended.

Don't want to crush your hope (or mine for that matter) but there was a body (Rodney mentioned the body) and ascension doesn't leave a body behind.

beale947
February 22nd, 2007, 12:35 PM
Don't want to crush your hope (or mine for that matter) but there was a body (Rodney mentioned the body) and ascension doesn't leave a body behind.


True. Worst episode ever!

Serebii
February 22nd, 2007, 12:42 PM
I think its an absolutely bloody travesty they killed him off. If anyone wants to know why (well as close to why as we've got right now) http://www.savecarsonbeckett.com has posted snippets from Paul McGillion's EXCLUSIVE interview with Starburst magazine. Apparently TPTB were worried because SG1 got cancelled and decide they MIGHT need to 'shake things up a bit'....simple as that. Its a really heartbreaking interview, you can tell he was totally gutted as to WHY they would do this. Shameless shock tastic in a below par ep merely written (as we speculated) to bump off the character.

And yes, while I didn't like the Eulogy (as they had poor Torri/Elizbath feeding us the partyline 'People die') the bagpipes, John and Rodney's faces really choked me up!!!

:(
That makes no sense as by the time SG1 got cancelled, Sunday had already been written and filmed

Elite Anubis Guard
February 22nd, 2007, 12:50 PM
Wheren't they considering not even airing this at one point?

P-90_177
February 22nd, 2007, 01:25 PM
well there are always ways to bring him back folks. parrallel universe most likely. even if it's just for a guest spot.

PG15
February 22nd, 2007, 02:07 PM
Wheren't they considering not even airing this at one point?

Nope.

Matt G
February 22nd, 2007, 02:38 PM
1. "The flower of Scotland...when will we see...your like again..." RIP Carson!
:(

2. Why the hell did they have to kill off someone like Carson Beckett?:mad:

3. And why couldn't someone have gone fishing with the guy?

4. To be honest, the "exploding tumour" thing felt more realistic than a terrorist bomb(my original assumption), given that they'd already done that in Critical Mass.

5. Sheppard married? Not implausible I guess.

6. Liked pretty much everyone in this ep(other than not being willing to go fishing with Carson).

Overall, better than "The Ark", I'm be generous and edge it over The Game but no where near the best ep of the season.

the old briar pipe
February 22nd, 2007, 04:33 PM
That makes no sense as by the time SG1 got cancelled, Sunday had already been written and filmed

Written, probably. Filmed, no. SG-1 was cancelled while they still had half of the season left to film for both series.

This was actually one of my big pet peeves with the ep, which I liked many parts of. But Carson's death felt very tacked on, like they spun the plot sideways at the last minute to accomodate it. And though it certainly was an emotional roller coaster (yes, I admit it, I started cried with Teyla in the infirmary and kept going through the whole eulogy), there were spots where it felt quite clumsy. Certainly not as smooth as, say, Siege I and Grodin's death.

Night Spring
February 22nd, 2007, 05:17 PM
This was actually one of my big pet peeves with the ep, which I liked many parts of. But Carson's death felt very tacked on, like they spun the plot sideways at the last minute to accomodate it. And though it certainly was an emotional roller coaster (yes, I admit it, I started cried with Teyla in the infirmary and kept going through the whole eulogy), there were spots where it felt quite clumsy. Certainly not as smooth as, say, Siege I and Grodin's death.
Martin Gero has said that he had originated the concept of a "day off" episode before they decided to write out Carson, so in that sense, Carson's death was certainly "tacked on" to Gero's original concept. But the way Carson keeps popping in on everyone else's storyline throughout the episode shows that his death was not a last minute addition -- there was a careful attempt to intergrate it into the original concept, and in many ways, I think this episode did succeed in what it set out to do. If this was a completely stand-alone TV movie, I'd compliment it on its unusual approach to storytelling. However, as an episode of Stargate: Atlantis, it felt like it was only there for the purpose of killing off Carson. All the character moments feel like they are just there to up the emotional shock of Carson's death, and there was nothing in the episode to connect it to any ongoing story arcs in the series. I mean, this is Stargte -- the last time I can think of when a character's personal relationship meaningfully intersected with the main storyline is Daniel and his quest to save his wife Share from the Goa'uld. Yet all the "day off" moments from Sunday ended up being about the main cast contemplating and/or attempting personal relationships. All stuff that, even if they end up being expanded on later, would never be part of the main storyline of Atlantis, because, as they keep telling us, this show isn't about romantic relationships. I agree with everyone who has said that if they had to kill off Becket, it would have been better to do it as part of the Michael/retrovirus arc. Even Heroes had a point to make beyond "anyone can die at any time." With Sunday, that is the only point of this episode, which is just beyond pathetic.

TJuk
February 22nd, 2007, 05:43 PM
Written, probably. Filmed, no. SG-1 was cancelled while they still had half of the season left to film for both series.

This was actually one of my big pet peeves with the ep, which I liked many parts of. But Carson's death felt very tacked on, like they spun the plot sideways at the last minute to accomodate it. And though it certainly was an emotional roller coaster (yes, I admit it, I started cried with Teyla in the infirmary and kept going through the whole eulogy), there were spots where it felt quite clumsy. Certainly not as smooth as, say, Siege I and Grodin's death.

Well Paul said he was told at the end of shooting 'Phantoms' then thats what, around June or earlier ? I cant remember WHEN the official news of cancellation was released, but it was right around the time they had the SG1 '200' party which was AFTER shooting that. So that kinda suggests they knew SG1 was going to get cancelled a while before it was announced OR its an excuse and they always intended to kill off the character. 'Sunday' was shot as the 14th episode in production, which puts it in August sometime. They have the summer hiatus from shooting for most of July, so that would give them time to re-write the script. Though if you remember, Martin Gero said they weren't going to commission it to start with at all. So they probably used 'Sunday's' original premise as a convenient way to add in the character death.

And as others have said, its blarringly obvious the episode was not originally written with the characters death in mind and to be honest I seriously doubt his character had as much inclusion. Remember Gero always spoke of 'the 5 main characters'.

So brave isn't it, killing off an already marginalised character for 'shock value' and 'to keep it real'. What planet do they think we're from? Hell, I think Carson was the most real thing about the show, he was human and not a caraciture (dont get me wrong, I do love them just the way they are) like the rest of the characters. As Gero said he was the 'every man'. So his death actually LESSENS the realism, not aides it.

So in other words, the decision to kill off the character was hastily done. You can DEFINATELY see 'Vengence' was written with Carson in mind. Theres a bloody big 'Carson shaped hole' in the scripts that makes that blarringly obvious and ruin IMO 'Vengence'.

The question is, WHY use such a completely insignificant episode and contrieved plot to kill him off? Why kill him off at all? Its so contrieved its not going to have any real effect to the ratings. The whole 'shake things up' thing is crap, especially when JM is using such a poorly thought out justification. For starters's he's citing shows that do this but ALL of whom kill off the LEADS. God Bless Carson I do love him, he was my fav but he was NOT a lead and struggled to get enough material to truely be main cast. God knows Paul did wonders with the pitence they gave him. And we all know Sheppard and McKay are safe, so that excuse just insults my intelligence.

xqqzme__mr
February 22nd, 2007, 08:28 PM
Wow.

It's amazing how worked up people will get over an episode. I know I'm certainly one of them. I don't care what the reasons were for the episode, but it was very well written (as usual) and I am enjoying the show more and more.

This is by far one of the best episodes of Stargate Atlantis, in my opinion. Certainly not <i>the</i> best, but it's up there near the top in my list. I loved Carson, he was my favorite, I thought the Scottish accent made him all the more attractice (even though it's fake), and I hated that he died.

I bawled at the end of the episode, beginning not three seconds after the last explosion, during which I sat in wide-eyed, slack-jawed disbelief at the screen. And in my opinion, any episode that gets me that emotional is one heck of an episode.

The character development by the writers is amazing. They did the same thing with SG-1 (up until season 8 or so, then they all moved over to Atlantis and left the not-so-good writers to mop up the rest of SG-1, which makes me sad, cuz my show doesn't rock anymore). Anyhoodle, back to the topic.

I'm gonna miss him. A heck of a lot. But at the same time I'm praying they don't bring him back, because it might cheapen the show. And the next time someone dies (which had better not be anyone I like anytime soon) I won't be as effected. And the episode will *kaput*.

Awesome episode. Amazing writing. Stupid idea. *wails over Carson* If they keep killing off my favorite guys....I'm....I'm gonna....fast or something, I dunno. The main reason Atlantis won me over (aside from the awesome writing....which I think I mentioned by the way ;) ) was McKay and Carson. Can't stand McKay, but I love the guy at the same time. He makes me smile every episode while urging me to throw something at the TV screen at the same time. That takes talent.

:beckett: : :danielanime08: = me

the old briar pipe
February 22nd, 2007, 11:43 PM
Martin Gero has said that he had originated the concept of a "day off" episode before they decided to write out Carson, so in that sense, Carson's death was certainly "tacked on" to Gero's original concept. But the way Carson keeps popping in on everyone else's storyline throughout the episode shows that his death was not a last minute addition -- there was a careful attempt to intergrate it into the original concept, and in many ways, I think this episode did succeed in what it set out to do.

See, I felt the "popping up" was a tack-on. E.g., he shows up in John & Ronon's golf scene but barely contributes to the actual conversation. He's mostly there as foreshadowing. He stops Lizzie in the hall to chat in a scene far more reminiscent of Shep's teasing than his own - and the scene itself didn't have to be there for Lizzie's sake, since she'd already had the talk with Teyla. He pops in on Zelenka and Lorne, both times when someone else could have been used for the role. Hewston and Watson are chewed out by McKay in the infirmary for plot reasons, yes, but the way Carson was smiling in the background was unusual for the show's style. McKay getting Brown to cover for him was practically the only thing that worked smoothly, but I don't doubt that was a lucky accident.

Don't get me wrong - I loved the unusualness of the ep. But I still think the "weaving" of Carson's storyline was added in later, and it showed.


If this was a completely stand-alone TV movie, I'd compliment it on its unusual approach to storytelling. However, as an episode of Stargate: Atlantis, it felt like it was only there for the purpose of killing off Carson. All the character moments feel like they are just there to up the emotional shock of Carson's death, and there was nothing in the episode to connect it to any ongoing story arcs in the series.

Yes, and yes to the pointlessness of tptb declaring a single, Camus-like intent to this ep instead of a broad spectrum. That's what SGA has really lacked in the past two seasons - consistant multi-tasking in the scripts. It's to the point where I clap my hands and squeal like a child when they do mere double duty in a scene.

If there was actual emotional/interpersonal fallout from Carson's death, I'd be a lot more accepting of it. In fact, I was initially inclined to let it go with only some private mourning. But can we say dropped ball?

Ethically speaking, I would say this doesn't rate an "Irresistible", but it may rival "Michael" for messages I wouldn't want my little sister to see in television. "Sometimes people die, honey, and then they're completely forgotten by the people who loved them. Everyone's replaceable, it's okay."


So they probably used 'Sunday's' original premise as a convenient way to add in the character death.

[...]

So in other words, the decision to kill off the character was hastily done. You can DEFINATELY see 'Vengence' was written with Carson in mind. Theres a bloody big 'Carson shaped hole' in the scripts that makes that blarringly obvious and ruin IMO 'Vengence'.

The question is, WHY use such a completely insignificant episode and contrieved plot to kill him off? Why kill him off at all? Its so contrieved its not going to have any real effect to the ratings. The whole 'shake things up' thing is crap, especially when JM is using such a poorly thought out justification. For starters's he's citing shows that do this but ALL of whom kill off the LEADS. God Bless Carson I do love him, he was my fav but he was NOT a lead and struggled to get enough material to truely be main cast. God knows Paul did wonders with the pitence they gave him. And we all know Sheppard and McKay are safe, so that excuse just insults my intelligence.

Yes to the Vengeance comment. I felt a definite draft from the Carson-shaped hole....

I think we may be asking ourselves the wrong question. Clearly, the killing of Carson was weird and contrived and set in an odd space within both the season and "Sunday" itself. Clearly, there was no intended fallout from it for the rest of the characters. So my question is, was Carson really killed as a ratings stunt? Or did tptb actually do what has been suggested before and cut a character for costs and/or because they felt they couldn't write for him, then find an odd way to use his death to make an otherwise low-action script into a drama-fest?

I read in an SF press release that Jewel's only contracted for 6 eps next year.

That immediately makes me think money.

(The same press release you cite in which Paul discusses being told about Carson's death after filming "Phantoms" - arguably one of his best performances of the series - also includes his comment that tptb offered him the opportunity to walk after "Sunday" was filmed, despite not having filmed the eps leading up to it. Also, his big farewell scene with Rodney in ToR was never filmed due to time constraints. This sounds to me like tptb never considered the character important. They would have let him walk from ToR, The Ark, and The Game. That they could even conceive of putting someone else into the doughnut scene in ToR just blows my mind. As a comedic actor, Paul is almost on David's level; as a dramatic one, he's simply incredible - far more emotionally believable than most of the cast, much as I love every one of them. That Paul was rarely used effectively is both obvious and a travesty.)

Apologies for the enormous combo-post. It's late and I got carried away. :o

PG15
February 23rd, 2007, 12:14 AM
I read in an SF press release that Jewel's only contracted for 6 eps next year.



8, actually

the old briar pipe
February 23rd, 2007, 01:36 AM
8, actually

Ahaha, I not only can't cut my verbiage, I can't read, either. Going to bed now.

Thank you. :)

Linzi
February 23rd, 2007, 01:46 AM
I know, I've read some snippets here and there from PM, and it's so sad.


Didn't they act that brilliantly! Kudos to DH and JF, they did a marvellous job with it.
You know all of the actors did a great job in the funeral scene. The characters all looked desperately unhappy, but trying to hold it together. I think this was a classic episode. My brother watched it with me on Wednesday night and he was shocked at Carson's death, but thought it was a fantastic idea. Not losing the character of Carson, of course, because we both like him, but that it was so unexpected and a total shock. He said to me, 'He was one of the main cast, so that means anyone could go now', and he's got a point: as far as drama and sense of shock goes, it was an episode that really delivered. Of course, the loss of a good character isn't so great for Carson fans. :(

Hooperman1990
February 23rd, 2007, 03:27 AM
Carson was one of the characters that TPTB should never kill off. EVER. Too important! They should be able to find some storyline to bring him back in, even only as a guest. After all when they killed Daniel Jackson, Micheal shanks appeared in at least two episodes before they even brought him back. I gt really choked at the end with the eulogy and the bagpipes, and the bit with rodney and carson right at the end was a nice bit to add in. :thoranime01:

Falcon Horus
February 23rd, 2007, 08:08 AM
Carson was one of the characters that TPTB should never kill off. EVER.

I agree... Killing Carson was a very bad move.


They should be able to find some storyline to bring him back in, even only as a guest. After all when they killed Daniel Jackson, Micheal shanks appeared in at least two episodes before they even brought him back.

I'd love to see him back in some way. Though Daniel ascended so there was always the chance of him returning, while Carson got blown to pieces which is in fact very final.

Unless they come up with an AU...

nonniemous
February 23rd, 2007, 08:34 AM
See, I felt the "popping up" was a tack-on. ...snips...

EXACTLY. They couldn't even write Carson an episode of his own in which to die. They couldn't even give him Vengeance for that, when it would at least have served some overall story line. They wanted dramatic impact? Michael killing Carson in revenge? That would have done it.




Yes, and yes to the pointlessness of tptb declaring a single, Camus-like intent to this ep instead of a broad spectrum. That's what SGA has really lacked in the past two seasons - consistant multi-tasking in the scripts. It's to the point where I clap my hands and squeal like a child when they do mere double duty in a scene.

The general complexity of the scripts from first season compared to this season? Oh, yeah. There were a few that delivered, Phantoms, for one. But most haven't. And Sunday was one of the worst.


Ethically speaking, I would say this doesn't rate an "Irresistible", but it may rival "Michael" for messages I wouldn't want my little sister to see in television. "Sometimes people die, honey, and then they're completely forgotten by the people who loved them. Everyone's replaceable, it's okay."

:zelenka25:

Exactly.




So my question is, was Carson really killed as a ratings stunt? Or did tptb actually do what has been suggested before and cut a character for costs and/or because they felt they couldn't write for him, then find an odd way to use his death to make an otherwise low-action script into a drama-fest?

...snips...

(The same press release you cite in which Paul discusses being told about Carson's death after filming "Phantoms" - arguably one of his best performances of the series - also includes his comment that tptb offered him the opportunity to walk after "Sunday" was filmed, despite not having filmed the eps leading up to it. Also, his big farewell scene with Rodney in ToR was never filmed due to time constraints. This sounds to me like tptb never considered the character important. They would have let him walk from ToR, The Ark, and The Game. That they could even conceive of putting someone else into the doughnut scene in ToR just blows my mind. As a comedic actor, Paul is almost on David's level; as a dramatic one, he's simply incredible - far more emotionally believable than most of the cast, much as I love every one of them. That Paul was rarely used effectively is both obvious and a travesty.)

Apologies for the enormous combo-post. It's late and I got carried away. :o

Not going to cut any of that last, because you are so very right. I'm to the point where I'd rather see PM go on to something that truly accepts and showcases his talents rather than being stuck back where they routinely ignore his talent and his character. I know he has said over and over he loved working on Atlantis, but they have never, ever used him to his full potential. Just the fact that they left him out of McKay & Ms. Miller and didn't fil that scene in Tao proves that.

I think the whole point of Sunday was to make room in the budget for TPTB's wet dream of moving the character of Sam Carter over to SGA (they knew SG1 was gone, remember?) and to give them the opportunity to bring in some more HAWT for the boys, since Teyla wasn't drawing them in. As always, it had nothing but nothing to do with Carson or Paul.

:weir44:

TJuk
February 23rd, 2007, 11:53 AM
I'd have to disagree about budget ideas. For starters, if that were a concern then they would have a random guest star or relative unknown ad hoc, NOT a NAME as a recurring character. Recurring means theres a contract that GARANTEES a certain number of episodes, as the MGM press release says, JS got 8 (the original MGM casting line was 12 AND she's already been in 1 episode in s3...so it wouldn't surprise me if the number increases). Add Michael Beaches character who is also supposedly recurring. AND on top of that they AT who is supposedly 'recurring' but is in the credits? Paul was recurring in MORE episodes in season 1 but NOT in the credits which says to me says the 'recurring' title is a sham. AT IS a main cast member on SGA at the COST of TWO original cast who made Atlantis was it was. And I'm sorry, the excuse they're hoping to draw more SG1 fans over is laughable. SGA is SG1's spin off, we've already had plenty of crossover. Except possibly a very small number, any SG1 fans who wants to watch will already be doing so and many of those from what I've read have stated CARSON was the character that drew them in thanks to watching 'Poisoning the Well 'when it was given out free with their SG1 DVDs.

And I agree with nonniemous the way in which Carson appears in everyone's scenes in 'Sunday' while not really participating in them just shows they 'tagged' him on. It was bad enough the character had already been missing from multiple episodes he SHOULD have been in (such as The Game which was Atlantis based), as well as marginalised within the relationships (such as the unfilmed scene DH spoke about from Toa). And then to add insult to injury, they kill him off in a complete random, stand alone episode. Going as for as killing him WITHOUT actually including him int he story except the death would have just been a step too far. However, tagging him on to various scenes just made the mistake WORSE. Its blatantly a ploy to create drama without actually having the characters inclusion at heart.

It was an emotional episode, it wasn't a 'bad' episode, but it was a PERFECT example of the way in which this character AND the actor has been treated all along. Marginalised, under-used and eventually wasted. Pretty much the story of SGA all over...its an exercise of 'wasted potential'. Good but could have been A LOT better.

Linzi
February 23rd, 2007, 12:20 PM
I'd have to disagree about budget ideas. For starters, if that were a concern then they would have a random guest star or relative unknown ad hoc, NOT a NAME as a recurring character. Recurring means theres a contract that GARANTEES a certain number of episodes, as the MGM press release says, JS got 8 (the original MGM casting line was 12 AND she's already been in 1 episode in s3...so it wouldn't surprise me if the number increases). Add Michael Beaches character who is also supposedly recurring. AND on top of that they AT who is supposedly 'recurring' but is in the credits? Paul was recurring in MORE episodes in season 1 but NOT in the credits which says to me says the 'recurring' title is a sham. AT IS a main cast member on SGA at the COST of TWO original cast who made Atlantis was it was. And I'm sorry, the excuse they're hoping to draw more SG1 fans over is laughable. SGA is SG1's spin off, we've already had plenty of crossover. Except possibly a very small number, any SG1 fans who wants to watch will already be doing so and many of those from what I've read have stated CARSON was the character that drew them in thanks to watching 'Poisoning the Well 'when it was given out free with their SG1 DVDs.

And I agree with nonniemous the way in which Carson appears in everyone's scenes in 'Sunday' while not really participating in them just shows they 'tagged' him on. It was bad enough the character had already been missing from multiple episodes he SHOULD have been in (such as The Game which was Atlantis based), as well as marginalised within the relationships (such as the unfilmed scene DH spoke about from Toa). And then to add insult to injury, they kill him off in a complete random, stand alone episode. Going as for as killing him WITHOUT actually including him int he story except the death would have just been a step too far. However, tagging him on to various scenes just made the mistake WORSE. Its blatantly a ploy to create drama without actually having the characters inclusion at heart.

It was an emotional episode, it wasn't a 'bad' episode, but it was a PERFECT example of the way in which this character AND the actor has been treated all along. Marginalised, under-used and eventually wasted. Pretty much the story of SGA all over...its an exercise of 'wasted potential'. Good but could have been A LOT better.
You see I have a different take on the episode.
For me, seeing Beckett desperately trying to get someone to go fishing with him and everyone refusing because they had other things to do made me feel awful for Beckett. Everyone would be thinking, "Why didn't I say yes. Because I said no, he was here and he died." I thought that was a really original idea and it really felt like a hit to the stomach. I also felt it was a useless death. In the sense that if Beckett had left and evacuated with his patient and nurse that they'd all have been ok - maybe. But, that seemed the point to me. Death CAN be random, CAN be pointless and sometimes your number's just plain up. That made the episode all the more poignant for me.

vaberella
February 23rd, 2007, 04:01 PM
You see I have a different take on the episode.
For me, seeing Beckett desperately trying to get someone to go fishing with him and everyone refusing because they had other things to do made me feel awful for Beckett. Everyone would be thinking, "Why didn't I say yes. Because I said no, he was here and he died." I thought that was a really original idea and it really felt like a hit to the stomach. I also felt it was a useless death. In the sense that if Beckett had left and evacuated with his patient and nurse that they'd all have been ok - maybe. But, that seemed the point to me. Death CAN be random, CAN be pointless and sometimes your number's just plain up. That made the episode all the more poignant for me.

I wholeheartedly agree Linzi. :(

Lauriel
February 23rd, 2007, 08:46 PM
It was an emotional episode, it wasn't a 'bad' episode, but it was a PERFECT example of the way in which this character AND the actor has been treated all along. Marginalised, under-used and eventually wasted. Pretty much the story of SGA all over...its an exercise of 'wasted potential'. Good but could have been A LOT better.
I have to agree - there is a difference between a bad episode, and a choice you dislike. I love Carson. I didn't want him to die. I'm sad that he's gone and I think they made a bad choice in getting rid of him. However, I thought Sunday was a good ep. If you resign yourself to the fact that they have done this, you can enjoy the ep for what it is - an emotionally laden ep which was well written (imo) and well acted, and quite dramatic. I can see where some people think the Carson part was tacked on, and it may have been, but I didn't get this feel from the show when I watched it.

You see I have a different take on the episode.
For me, seeing Beckett desperately trying to get someone to go fishing with him and everyone refusing because they had other things to do made me feel awful for Beckett. Everyone would be thinking, "Why didn't I say yes. Because I said no, he was here and he died." I thought that was a really original idea and it really felt like a hit to the stomach. I also felt it was a useless death. In the sense that if Beckett had left and evacuated with his patient and nurse that they'd all have been ok - maybe. But, that seemed the point to me. Death CAN be random, CAN be pointless and sometimes your number's just plain up. That made the episode all the more poignant for me.
I agree Linzi. I think this is part of what the ep was trying to convey too, and I think the point came across.

the old briar pipe
February 23rd, 2007, 10:48 PM
You see I have a different take on the episode.
For me, seeing Beckett desperately trying to get someone to go fishing with him and everyone refusing because they had other things to do made me feel awful for Beckett. Everyone would be thinking, "Why didn't I say yes. Because I said no, he was here and he died." I thought that was a really original idea and it really felt like a hit to the stomach. I also felt it was a useless death. In the sense that if Beckett had left and evacuated with his patient and nurse that they'd all have been ok - maybe. But, that seemed the point to me. Death CAN be random, CAN be pointless and sometimes your number's just plain up. That made the episode all the more poignant for me.

Hm. Looks like I'm going against popular opinion so far, but....

I agree with you as far as the emotional impact goes, but when we get to the question of whether this ep was about Carson or not, well, clearly it wasn't. It was about everyone except Carson. He just happened to die in it. It was about everyone's reactions to his death. The only moment I truly felt was his was when he put his foot down and insisted on saving Watson. That was the only moment in the script where I really saw him affecting the outcome of the story. If you compare it to Phantoms, where he was constantly moving, pushing, trying to force the situation to play out his way even though he had no idea what was real - well, there is no comparison.

My feeling is that if an episode is going to kill a main character, the episode should be about that character. A last hurrah, if you will. Pointless death may seem "real" but without the hurrah, we're left just mourning our own grief and guilt. Elizabeth said it in her eulogy - "No one had any complaints against him." Mon dieu, that's a line straight from Auden's "The Unknown Citizen". It made me shudder to hear it.

So folks can go ahead and be shocked and tell themselves that "anyone can die" because yes, it's true, but I ask you to also consider being shocked and saddened that anyone could be killed off without first being given the chance to shine.

nonniemous
February 23rd, 2007, 10:51 PM
Hm. Looks like I'm going against popular opinion so far, but....

I agree with you as far as the emotional impact goes, but when we get to the question of whether this ep was about Carson or not, well, clearly it wasn't. It was about everyone except Carson. He just happened to die in it. It was about everyone's reactions to his death. The only moment I truly felt was his was when he put his foot down and insisted on saving Watson. That was the only moment in the script where I really saw him affecting the outcome of the story. If you compare it to Phantoms, where he was constantly moving, pushing, trying to force the situation to play out his way even though he had no idea what was real - well, there is no comparison.

My feeling is that if an episode is going to kill a main character, the episode should be about that character. A last hurrah, if you will. Pointless death may seem "real" but without the hurrah, we're left just mourning our own grief and guilt. Elizabeth said it in her eulogy - "No one had any complaints against him." Mon dieu, that's a line straight from Auden's "The Unknown Citizen". It made me shudder to hear it.

So folks can go ahead and be shocked and tell themselves that "anyone can die" because yes, it's true, but I ask you to also consider being shocked and saddened that anyone could be killed off without first being given the chance to shine.

I would green you many times over for this, if I could. But I'm out of strawberry leaves right now, not even any spinach to share.

Just a heartfelt WORD, and then some. This is exactly what was wrong with the episode--other than that little thing about Carson dying at the end...

Night Spring
February 23rd, 2007, 11:08 PM
My feeling is that if an episode is going to kill a main character, the episode should be about that character. A last hurrah, if you will. Pointless death may seem "real" but without the hurrah, we're left just mourning our own grief and guilt. Elizabeth said it in her eulogy - "No one had any complaints against him." Mon dieu, that's a line straight from Auden's "The Unknown Citizen". It made me shudder to hear it.

So folks can go ahead and be shocked and tell themselves that "anyone can die" because yes, it's true, but I ask you to also consider being shocked and saddened that anyone could be killed off without first being given the chance to shine.
That's it, exactly!!! And oh my god, was that eulogy the lamest thing -- they didn't even give Weir any words of her own to say, just had her quoting some guy whom I've never heard of before. Are we to believe that "Nobody had any complaints against him" is the best thing that could be said to sum up Carson's life? He was so much more than that!

the old briar pipe
February 23rd, 2007, 11:22 PM
That's it, exactly!!! And oh my god, was that eulogy the lamest thing -- they didn't even give Weir any words of her own to say, just had her quoting some guy whom I've never heard of before. Are we to believe that "Nobody had any complaints against him" is the best thing that could be said to sum up Carson's life? He was so much more than that!

Yeah, I can't believe that was really Weir's eulogy. She's so much better than that.

The bagpipes were nice, though. *whimper*

Someone should get on here and write a better speech. *looks around hopefully*

Night Spring
February 24th, 2007, 12:04 AM
Someone should get on here and write a better speech. *looks around hopefully*
*raises hand* I did write one. I made Rodney say it, though. :p
http://nightspring.livejournal.com/78001.html

Linzi
February 24th, 2007, 12:29 AM
Hm. Looks like I'm going against popular opinion so far, but....

I agree with you as far as the emotional impact goes, but when we get to the question of whether this ep was about Carson or not, well, clearly it wasn't. It was about everyone except Carson. He just happened to die in it. It was about everyone's reactions to his death. The only moment I truly felt was his was when he put his foot down and insisted on saving Watson. That was the only moment in the script where I really saw him affecting the outcome of the story. If you compare it to Phantoms, where he was constantly moving, pushing, trying to force the situation to play out his way even though he had no idea what was real - well, there is no comparison.

My feeling is that if an episode is going to kill a main character, the episode should be about that character. A last hurrah, if you will. Pointless death may seem "real" but without the hurrah, we're left just mourning our own grief and guilt. Elizabeth said it in her eulogy - "No one had any complaints against him." Mon dieu, that's a line straight from Auden's "The Unknown Citizen". It made me shudder to hear it.

So folks can go ahead and be shocked and tell themselves that "anyone can die" because yes, it's true, but I ask you to also consider being shocked and saddened that anyone could be killed off without first being given the chance to shine.
I disagree about an episode needing to be entirely about a character when they're going to be killed off. Why should it be? Certainly, in SG1 that hasn't been the case. Even the marvellous Heroes wasn't all about Janet Fraiser.
The whole premise of the episode was that the Atlantis expedition has a day off. We see vignettes for each character in it. That's what we were told many moons ago about Sunday.
Carson's story was that he was going to go fishing, but McKay backed out and he then went around looking for someone else to go instead. After the explosion he got a fair amount of screen time, and we saw him rise to the challenge as a doctor, and a person.
For me, I thought the whole episode was wonderfully pieced together, though I accept some people's complaint that it was a little disjointed because of the hopping back and forward in time.
I was so sceptical about this episode. From some of the spoilers it sounded awful. Yet I watched it and was blown away.
To come up with an idea where each character has a little section where you see what they do when they're off duty, which then suddenly becomes a life and death situation was a great idea, I think.
I didn't feel it was a disservice to Beckett. I thought it was the opposite.
I would agree with those who weren't overly impressed by Weir's eulogy though. I wasn't thrilled with that either. Very mediocre, I'd agree.
The last scene, between McKay and Beckett was a great send off though as far as I'm concerned. Beckett will be sorely missed, was the message that came across to me. What more could an episode say about a departed character?

expendable_crewman
February 24th, 2007, 03:33 AM
You see I have a different take on the episode.
For me, seeing Beckett desperately trying to get someone to go fishing with him and everyone refusing because they had other things to do made me feel awful for Beckett. Everyone would be thinking, "Why didn't I say yes. Because I said no, he was here and he died." I thought that was a really original idea and it really felt like a hit to the stomach. I also felt it was a useless death. In the sense that if Beckett had left and evacuated with his patient and nurse that they'd all have been ok - maybe. But, that seemed the point to me. Death CAN be random, CAN be pointless and sometimes your number's just plain up. That made the episode all the more poignant for me.Good points. I saw what you saw.

More importantly, if I was coming at the episode "unspoiled," I would have seen it to a greater degree, although I can't speak for everyone, and that's telling when I rate my (personal) viewing experience.

My issues with the ep are nitpicks. The overall story, IMO, was well done.

Linzi
February 24th, 2007, 03:41 AM
Good points. I saw what you saw.

More importantly, if I was coming at the episode "unspoiled," I would have seen it to a greater degree, although I can't speak for everyone, and that's telling when I rate my (personal) viewing experience.

My issues with the ep are nitpicks. The overall story, IMO, was well done.
I can't believe I'm going to say this, but I wish I HAD come into the episode unspoiled. I just can't resist clicking on the old spoiler button, and if I hadn't, then I think the impact of this episode would have been even more dramatic than it was.

expendable_crewman
February 24th, 2007, 04:04 AM
I can't believe I'm going to say this, but I wish I HAD come into the episode unspoiled. I just can't resist clicking on the old spoiler button, and if I hadn't, then I think the impact of this episode would have been even more dramatic than it was.I'd green you for that but the hall monitor won't let me, lol.

I'd love nothing better than to leave all spoilers behind and face Season 4, whenever that will be, fresh as I did in the days (ten months ago) before I discovered Atlantis online fandom. Will it happen? Nah.

I can't unplug, it seems, so my choices are (1) have the spoilers and let them impact my viewing experience or (2) have the spoilers and do my best to minimize the impact on my viewing experience.

I've found that with spoilers, because developing expectations is human nature and inevitable, I have to watch the episode several times to appreciate it for the story it's trying to tell, as oppposed to the story I "wanted" it to tell, or thought it was going to tell based on spoilers. Can't say that watching an ep several times has been all that much of a burden, though.

Well, Sunday, because of Carson's death, I've watched less than others.

xqqzme__mr
February 24th, 2007, 09:06 AM
I've found that with spoilers, because developing expectations is human nature and inevitable, I have to watch the episode several times to appreciate it for the story it's trying to tell, as oppposed to the story I "wanted" it to tell, or thought it was going to tell based on spoilers. Can't say that watching an ep several times has been all that much of a burden, though.

Well, Sunday, because of Carson's death, I've watched less than others.


You've got a point. Now that I think about it, I'm enjoying Atlantis much more than SG-1 now and I'm not reading up on future Atlantis episodes. I have no idea what's to come in season four, or the last two episodes of Atlantis, for that matter. But I've always looked as far ahead as possible in SG-1, and I'm almost always disappointed when I finally see the episode. I'm going to try my hardest not to spoil Atlantis the same way. I might look at episode titles, but I'll try not to read any plotlines or anything.

Do you think they'll have another character assume The Doctor position, or will they just sort of leave it out? On SG-1 they brought in Dr. Lam, but we haven't seen here in quite some time. I kind of hope they do, just so I'll be reminded of Carson everytime he/she shows up, or every time there's a medical scene. If they cut out the medical side of the storylines alltogether, it'll feel like they not only killed Carson, but they killed Dr. Beckett as well. If that makes any sense. Not just the character, but his role in Atlantis and the significance his character had to the show.

Yeah, I'm not very good at wording things...

Pegasus_SGA
February 24th, 2007, 12:44 PM
Just watched Sunday again *sniff*

For Carson http://i134.photobucket.com/albums/q119/Scully_album/candle.gif

Night Spring
February 24th, 2007, 06:10 PM
Do you think they'll have another character assume The Doctor position, or will they just sort of leave it out?
Wow, you've done a really good job of avoiding spoilers if you don't know the answer to this one! ;)

Trialia
February 25th, 2007, 02:11 AM
Yeah, I can't believe that was really Weir's eulogy. She's so much better than that.

The bagpipes were nice, though. *whimper*

Someone should get on here and write a better speech. *looks around hopefully*
Well said. Which fits with what I've said earlier that I felt she was not her usual self throughout this episode, and I didn't like it.

TBH, Carson's death did feel like it was tacked on, but even without that, I don't think I'd have enjoyed this episode. It was lacklustre - far below Gero's usual writing capability, so I'm getting the feeling it was heavily "messed with" after the original script was put out.

nemisis
February 25th, 2007, 08:15 AM
ok i get a feeling that everyones favorite doc (dr.beckett) may of asended because if you watch sunday after he gives the solider the tumer and it blows up you see a realy realy bright light well it seems to move around for a split second and it reminded me of seeing dr.jackson asened it was as if they just zoomed in on it, plus at the end it was just like what happed on sg-1 but instead of jack and daniel it was mackay and beckett.

Owell just a idea what do you think?.

generaloneill
February 25th, 2007, 09:23 AM
memorial videos to carson i found on youtube spoiler warning for those of you who haven't seen sunday though i imagine veryone has because of the significance of this episode

In memory of Carson Beckett
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KCXJ-3AV6IU&NR

In Memory of Carson Beckett
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BgwNen4wKnQ&mode=related&search=

Tribute to Carson Beckett
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CKCW34aWcGg&mode=related&search=

:beckett:

Alipeeps
February 25th, 2007, 09:27 AM
ok i get a feeling that everyones favorite doc (dr.beckett) may of asended because if you watch sunday after he gives the solider the tumer and it blows up you see a realy realy bright light well it seems to move around for a split second and it reminded me of seeing dr.jackson asened it was as if they just zoomed in on it, plus at the end it was just like what happed on sg-1 but instead of jack and daniel it was mackay and beckett.

Owell just a idea what do you think?.

a) No he didn't. He died. This was made clear in the episode... Rodney talks about sending the body back through the stargate.

b) Your thread should be clearly labelled to show that it contains spoilers as to the content of the episode Sunday.

c) There's a perfectly good Episode Discussion thread for the episode Sunday which is there specifically for people to discuss any and all aspects of the episode.

shelsfc
February 25th, 2007, 02:32 PM
I thought it was a fantastic episode, without the killing of Beckett. I love these character episodes, and I loved the moments between all the characters. But in the end, think of all the things that have happened because of Carson. All the retrovirus stuff. I'm sure he's broken that oath in some way with the stuff he's experimented on. Somehow, they would have had to have dealt with that and killing him off was a shortcut.


I completely agree. There was so much still to do with Carson, but he (and Paul, for that matter) were just wasted. It feels like it was laziness on the writers part.




Don't get me wrong - I loved the unusualness of the ep. But I still think the "weaving" of Carson's storyline was added in later, and it showed.

I feel the same way, it did feel like it was just added in for the sake of it. Though I did think that maybe I was just seeing it that way because I knew it was added in afterwards.:rolleyes:




My feeling is that if an episode is going to kill a main character, the episode should be about that character. A last hurrah, if you will. Pointless death may seem "real" but without the hurrah, we're left just mourning our own grief and guilt. Elizabeth said it in her eulogy - "No one had any complaints against him." Mon dieu, that's a line straight from Auden's "The Unknown Citizen". It made me shudder to hear it.

So folks can go ahead and be shocked and tell themselves that "anyone can die" because yes, it's true, but I ask you to also consider being shocked and saddened that anyone could be killed off without first being given the chance to shine.

It's adding insult to injury. Not that Paul didn't do a great job, but he wasn't given an awful lot to work with (IMHO). Now I know he's had a couple of really good eps in the past (although not nearly enough!), Poisoning the Well obviously springs to mind. But you're right, when they're actually killing the character off, the least they can do is make his swan song about him.

Andy1
February 27th, 2007, 04:18 AM
I disagree that Carson's part and subsequent death was added on to the end. Personally I thought the episode flowed very well given the unusual way it was told. I didn't actually know he was going to die in this one, I kind of half-guessed it and I knew it would be somewhere towards the end of this season but I wasn't sure it would be this one.

For me it added to the episode's greatness: is he going to get the tumour away safely or is it going to go off in his face? Unfortunately the latter was the closest but still it adds to the tension.

I think if you are not spoiled prior to the episode of the end result, it makes his death seem less pointless. Instead of knowing what happens and having the freedom to analyse the event you are more caught up in how or if he's actually going to die.

As eluded to by some others here spoilers can ruin an episode for you without you realising that the spoiler is the thing that has ruined it.

jonno
March 1st, 2007, 06:39 PM
As an episode ... it was beautifully constructed, written, acted and directed. It's a good piece of work. Unfortunately there's the small problem that it killed off my favourite character. And for that it will always be tarnished to me.

Was the death necessary? ... well - sadly, i have to say yes. Part of the reason it works is because we lose someone unexpectedly. That fact provides the impetus required to make it work as a beautiful piece of (one-off filmmaking). But was it the best decision for the overall show? Personally, i think not. Not at this stage in the show's life anyway.

Night Spring
March 1st, 2007, 11:29 PM
Was the death necessary? ... well - sadly, i have to say yes. Part of the reason it works is because we lose someone unexpectedly. That fact provides the impetus required to make it work as a beautiful piece of (one-off filmmaking). But was it the best decision for the overall show? Personally, i think not. Not at this stage in the show's life anyway.
Exactly. As a one-off story, it worked beautifully. As a "farewell episode" to a character, I dare say it worked better than Heroes or Meridian. In his latest interview, Paul McGillion says that Martin Gero, who wrote this episode, was a great fan of the Carson character, and I think it shows. The contrived plot device of the exploding tumor aside, I think Gero manages to encapsulate just exactly what made Carson such a well-loved character in all the interactions between Carson and the other characters during the course of this episode, making his death even more poignant. But Carson's departure leaves a gap in the show that cannot be plugged, and no one-off episode is worth that, no matter how beautiful and poignant it was.

O'Neill4prez
March 8th, 2007, 11:06 AM
I'd say shepard's marriage was a short affair probably in college. sad to see Beckett go but i thought it was very well done, it should how little we still know about Atlantis and how dangerous it is. it was also a nice tribute to Carson the way he died, fighting to save someone's life, thats what his character was all about:beckett:

the old briar pipe
March 8th, 2007, 07:17 PM
I'd say shepard's marriage was a short affair probably in college.

I'd agree with your first point, but not your second. First of all, Shep was either in ROTC or the Air Force Academy, neither of which leaves lots of extra time for what you'd call a "personal life". Second of all, it is not standard in America to get married while you're in college - quite the reverse, actually. He's also quite old enough to have married later.

Now, if you'd said "grad school", then maybe I'd believe you. Still no time, but lots of folks do it anyway... :sheppard:

I wonder how much of Shep's marriage, if any, was long-distance? Being an AF wife on base is one thing, but family members are not shipped into war zones.

Why Carson? Why?
March 10th, 2007, 07:19 PM
Ok IMHO i think that it's crap that they killed of the softer side to SGA I mean there was just no need and people saying its a part of life etc i think thats crap seriously,

And how people are saying that he is dead well did any of you actuely see the body no it was in a military metal casket so we don't know if there is a body or not and i mean if Shepperd was about assend i don't see why Beckett
couldn't I mean the man was a the best doctor in TWO galexys (excuse my spelling through out im very tired) and the most warm hearted man on SGA or SG-1,

and to who would help him why not the people from the planet with the fast pase assention (can't remeber the episode).

I for one think that with all the support and fan base that will nay "should" bring him back... IMHO

Falcon Horus
March 11th, 2007, 07:49 AM
And how people are saying that he is dead well did any of you actuely see the body no it was in a military metal casket so we don't know if there is a body or not...

It's in fact Rodney who says they're taking the body back home.

Why Carson? Why?
March 11th, 2007, 09:48 AM
It's in fact Rodney who says they're taking the body back home.

Yes but he hesitated quite a bit before hand and im just hoping that all the fans get through to TPTB there are many websites going up about beckett and weir and i salute them!

I just hope that they see the light and bring Beckett home to Atlantis.

PS What about the wee baby turtles he just bought who will look after and feed the wee turtles.

Falcon Horus
March 11th, 2007, 09:58 AM
Yes but he hesitated quite a bit before hand and im just hoping that all the fans get through to TPTB there are many websites going up about beckett and weir and i salute them!

Wouldn't you hesitate before saying the body of your best friend is going to return home. I'd be devistated having to refer to him as a body. Of course, he'd hesitate, it'd be mighty hard to say.


I just hope that they see the light and bring Beckett home to Atlantis.

As much as I hate the way he went, bringing him back would make his death even more pointless.
But that doesn't meant we have to stop fighting to see the character of Beckett returned in some way... AU, past story, clip-episode...


PS What about the wee baby turtles he just bought who will look after and feed the wee turtles.

I'm pretty sure Cadman will take care of his turtles. ;)

Night Spring
March 11th, 2007, 10:18 AM
I'm pretty sure Cadman will take care of his turtles. ;)
Carson said that he and Cadman "didn't work out" in Return 1.
JM has said on his blog that the turtles are "in McKay's care."