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FoolishPleasure
January 16th, 2007, 07:56 PM
Ronon says he isn't ready for another romance. When is ready? Its been 8-1/2 years! He was on the run for 7, and been on Atlantis for a year and a half. The dude needs some serious sessions with Heightmeyer.

When I first heard about Gero doing a "Sunday" episode, I figured it would finally be the episode we needed back in year one - something to tell us a bit about each of our main people, but no, we get Weir being stalked by a new scientist (well, stalk is a bit strong, but you get the idea), explosions, deaths, and the unnecessary loss of a fan fav. We got some info on our characters, but we didn't need death and destruction. I can turn on CNN when I want to see that.

I still think the exploding tumor idea came from SG1's "Singularity", especially seeing how the writers have ripped off so much from SG1 this season. Ugh.

Mitchell82
January 16th, 2007, 08:02 PM
I've been watching television for a very long time now...but there were only 2 things, 2 1-hour television episodes that made me feel as I do now. Both were Star Trek Enterprise episodes, and both made me quiet for a long while after the episode finished. I don't know what it was; perhaps I was thinking about the events within the episodes, perhaps I was trying to twist my mind through the plot lines; the character's actions.

The first was "Damage", where a major character revealed an addiction to a drug, and the captain was forced to steal from innocent aliens. The second was "Observer Effect", where the captain's best friend died; the pain he showed in his eyes was probably what did it. At the end of the episode, however, everyone came back to life, and showed the friendship between the characters.

Tonight we add a third episode to this list. My headphones, which I used to watch "Sunday", is still on my head, long after the last few seconds of the episode was silenced. I have not said a single word since the growling lion that is MGM's logo vanished off of my computer screen. My nose, and my hands are ice cold, and I'm forced to swallow again due to whatever process that's affecting me right now. For the first time, writing a "review" for an episode is taking something out of me; instead of listing the points of interest, filled with happy faces at the end of them, I'm going to write a real review, or as real as I can.

I'm not going to lie. Sunday was not perfect. The first few moments felt a tad awkward as we are suddenly drawn into the personal lives of these characters which we've seen time-and-time again in mortal danger, only exposing the part of them wishing for survival. At best, we saw grace under pressure (pun definately not intended), and a little humor/snark between buddies. But this was different. It was jarring, yes, but once I got used to it, everything became that much more wholesome, that much more sweet. I was watching the people I knew having fun, enjoying life, and all that good stuff that they've deserved since day 1.

Martin Gero, the SuperUberGod he is (I had to promote him again after this episode), crafted this episode like a puzzle that for once didn't bore me after opening the box. It was very odd seeing Elizabeth on a date, especially with a little scruffy nerd herder who I've never heard of before. I'll admit, I thought he was a little too arrogent for his own good, and took mild satisfaction at Liz's "rejection" of him at the end. Still, if he returns, I won't be unhappy.

Speaking of returns, we got to see many faces from the past; the enthusiastic Dr. Beuro(sp?), the accepting Katie Brown, as well as our usual guest stars with new, interesting quirks of their own. Zeleka bested that SOB at chess, and took away Joe's Anime DVDs, and Lorne's excellence at paintings were only eclipsed by my lack there of. Even though the main story was not this; it was still nice. Obvious mention will go to the little character moments, such as McKay's marriage stuttering and Ronan and Shep's little beer fest, including the first time we hear them actually talking about potential relationships (and the last). Still, the story was not about this.

As we all know by now, Gero wanted to do a *complete* day off, with just characters interracting. However, while that would be perfect for a good laugh and some character development, what he did instead elevated this episode above pretty much all else in terms of character drama in this series, and perhaps in SG1 as well.

There is no words to describe Beckett's day off. Of course, I knew he was going to pass on long before I saw the episode, as did pretty much everyone on this forum. Still, watching each character politely rejecting him, and having him frustrated, just adds another layer to the whole thing. I'll probably just repeat what everyone else has said, about his absolute determination, his absolute dedication...but it has to be said. Carson Beckett was an unique character; he died doing what he did best. Sure, it wasn't something huge like the Wraith or Asurans attacking the city, and he was the one man that can flip the switch to save everyone; that would've been cheap, and cliche.

This was different. From start to finish, the ending minutes of the episode was dedicated to Carson Beckett. He saved the lives of 2 people by himself. His nurse, and Watson. Sure, our heroes save millions of people on a daily basis, but when it comes down to 2, it becomes personal. Carson died a personal death, the most honorable, the most memorable death. This was in plain sight at the end of the episode; the body might be broken, but Carson will forever live on in the memories of the Atlantis expedition, as well as the viewers. I mourn for him, and what's more, I didn't think it was necessary.

But it had an impact on me. It made me feel things that I usually don't. It gave me a new experience, one that I will never forget. In television nothing is necessary, but when it has the chance to impact a viewer such as myself like this...it becomes necessary, just as it's necessary that we remember him, as well as the fact that for 45 minutes, we were treated to his generosity, his dedication, and everything else that made him Carson Beckett.

This is PG15, still not taking the headphones off, still not talking, still typing with ice cold hands, signing off with an Episode Score of...

10/10

Nice post hey I need to talk to you I am going to PM you please respond.

gatinha
January 16th, 2007, 08:31 PM
actually .... I haven't seen sunday yet...but I've got the picture .... some commented that Sunday was cliche coz it's similar to SG1 and all....but I also want to remind some of you that some people who watch SGA don't watch SG1...so some of us don't know any stories in SG1.

Somehow I felt weird...

Because sometimes I found that some were not really know SGA....how it started...where it's gonna go....so I recommend we really need to watch the show from season 1 not just one time....but at least 3 to 4 times...and if possible also watch the commentaries...coz from there we're gonna get back stories about the making process....

Goddess
January 16th, 2007, 08:42 PM
:sobs hysterically: I have no words :sobs more hysterically:

unruhbrady
January 16th, 2007, 08:54 PM
Oh my flipping god....:beckettanime12: this would have better served as the season finale. (for some reason i think carson will return is some form)

Beckmen
January 16th, 2007, 08:56 PM
Does anybody know what that final scene was about? Or if the writers plan on explaining it ever? I mean, all they had to do to have it make some sense was have Rodney wake up after it in bed and just look all depressed.

Also, Dr. Katie Brown. Wow. I thought she was Heightmeyer all this time. They look too alike and have too similar of names, plus the Heightmeyer stuff with McKay pretending/wanting to go out with her really confused me...

But a really good episode, IMO. Carson will be sorely missed.

ShadowMaat
January 16th, 2007, 09:08 PM
Maybe it's just that I've pretty much stopped watching the show and have thus built up my tolerance levels again, but I thought this episode was brilliantly played. If it wasn't for the unfortunate fact that I know better, Sunday could almost have restored my faith. But like I said, I know it's just one diamond in the dung heap. But oh, what a diamond!

I know a lot of folks are upset at the loss of Carson and I'm right there with you (of all the cowardly, stupid moves...), but personally I think that is exactly the right kind of ending for the character and even knowing what was going to happen I still cried like a broken thing. Safe journey, Carson.

Actually, I should amend that: I knew there was going to be an explosion and I knew Carson was going to die, but I was expecting the explosion to happen towards the end of the ep. Consequently I nearly hit the ceiling when it happened in the teaser. You're still a sneaky, dirty rat, Martin. :P

Everyone was outstanding in this ep. Everyone. For the first time in forever the characters actually felt and acted human. What a wonderful change! And seeing them out of their roles and relaxing is a too-rare treasure.

I loved Dr. Whatsit who charmed Weir into lunch and stole a kiss. I hope we get to see more of him, if only in the background occasionally making eyes at Weir. ;)

All the little details we got on the characters, from Shep's failed marriage to Zelenka's chess sharking to Lorne's painting and McKay's continuing relationship with Katie... it's SO reassuring to know that there's at least ONE PTB who has put some thought into the characters beyond the stereotypical crap we get week in and week out. Thank you for this gift, Martin.

If I had any complaints it'd be that I found all the time jumping to be a little distracting. I found myself wanting to sit down and make a timeline so I could figure out who was where and when. But in the grand scheme of things it was a minor quibble and it all came together in the end.

I will add the caveat that if some damn fool writer ever tries to bring Carson back in a future ep- through whatever cutesified method- I will curse said writer (or writers) into the ninth circle of Hell. Don't screw up a good exit; it would lessen everything accomplished in this ep.

Yes, I know there are many who disagree, but this is my personal view. Whatever failings have marred the show so far, whatever atrocities lie in the future, this one episode, at least, is worth watching.

PG15
January 16th, 2007, 09:08 PM
^Edit: to Beckmen

The final scene is about Rodney remembering Carson, and having a heart-to-heart with a dear-departed friend.

Don't think of it too technically; it was done purely for emotional impact.

And it worked.

watcher652
January 16th, 2007, 09:10 PM
Second half.


14 hours earlier

Rodney in infirmary wearing a robe. Rodney scolding 2 junior scientists that we now know are Dr Houston and Dr Watson. They were sent on a routine cataloging assignment but they activated an alien device. Dr Houston (female scientist): But you did that. Rodney: I can fix it, you can’t. My 4 year old niece is smarter than you. You need to be more careful. Carson: Rodney. Rodney calms down. Ok, ok. Take tomorrow off. Dr. Houston: We were. It’s the mandatory rest day. Rodney looks at Carson. Carson mimes fishing. Rodney turns away mumbles: Oh great.

Door of botany lab. Rodney goes in. Calls for Katie. Katie: I have to monitor these ferns. Could have the cure to leukemia. Rodney: I need an excuse to break those fishing plans with Carson. I can’t conceive of a more tortuous, unappealing way to spend time. Katie: Why did you agree? Rodney: It was a month ago. I thought something would come up so I wouldn’t have to go. But nothing did. Can take you out to lunch? Kaite: No I have to stay with the ferns. Rodney: I’ll get lunch and bring it back here. Katie: You want to baby sit ferns with me? Rodney: Yes, as opposed to fishing with Carson.

Mess. Rodney has two lunches. Sees Elizabeth and Hot Science Guy at table. Hmm. Carson comes in. Carson: Ah, great minds think alike. I've come for snacks, too. Rodney has long story about day off plans. Rodney: We spend so little time together I don't know if we're even a couple. I told Katie I’d spend the day with her. Carson: All right Rodney. Tell Katie I said hello. Carson walks out with a sandwich, an orange and a bottle of water.

Botany lab. Katie: Didn’t think we had a chance. Cadman made you kiss me. Then you avoided me for months. I understand how you didn’t want to think about it. But you’ve really made an effort to make time for me and it’s been lovely. Rodney: Saw my little sister saw happy. So I was thinking I’d like to get married. Rodney fumbles back and forth with Katie. Oh not to you. But I didn’t mean it like that. I mean... Katie: I like you a lot. Rodney: I know and to be honest I find that baffling. When you get to know the real me… Katie: I know you. There’s not a lot of subtext with you. Rodney: Sorry I ignored you. The two lean in...

Muffled sound of an explosion. Rodney runs off.

Back to Sheppard and Ronon with Radek at gym wall.

Rodney: Drs Houston and Watson were exposed to odd radiation. Carson examined them. They had a clean bill of health. So we thought we'd we’ll figure out the device later. Big Mistake. It’s a weapon to battle the Wraith. Creates explosive tumors. Medical technobabble.

Where’s Dr. Watson? In the infirmary, one of the people caught in the explosion caused by Dr Houston.

2 hours earlier

Mess. Back to Carson and Rodney. Rodney brushing Carson off.

Carson walks down hallway lined with dining tables. People are playing chess. Radek is at a table playing chess with someone. Carson: Radek, want to go fishing? Radek: I would but today we’re playing for things. Lists things already won. Can we go next week? Carson: OK.

Balcony. Carson finds Lorne on balcony painting. Carson: Would you like to go fishing? Lorne: Maybe if you asked earlier, but I'm in the middle of this painting. Carson: That's ok.

Some general purpose room. Carson sees Biro. She’s quite, um enthusiastic in her greeting. Carson doesn’t ask her to go fishing.

Infirmary. Doctor Cole at some device. She’s on call. Carson: Fishing trip is a bust, I’m going to catch up with paper work. What’s wrong with you? Cole: Migraine. Took something but still have it. Carson: You should have called me. Cole: That fishing trip was all you were talking abut for 2 weeks. Carson: It's done with now. Go rest.

Later. Carson is wrapping a woman’s foot. Carson: Don’t play volleyball in sandals.

Muffled sound of explosion. Carson orders medical personnel. Runs out.

Gym. Carson accompanies Teyla on stretcher.

Infirmary: Carson operating on Teyla.

Science lab: Rodney calls for Dr. Watson.

Infirmary. Dr. Watson is on operating table.

Carson sends his assistant to tell him Watson's on the operating table.

Rodney: Radiation caused explosive tumor. Get everyone out. Carson: He can’t move. Rodney: He doesn’t have to move you do. Carson sends everyone out but other doctor stays. Carson: We have a tumor to remove.

Science lab. John: Carson used his authorization code to seal off floor. Carson refuses to leave his patient. Rodney: You can't seriously be considering operating on this guy. Arson: Exactly how much time do you think we have? Rodney: There's no way of knowing. Houston was infected at the same time and her tumor already exploded. Carson: No time to waste, then. Rodney: Look, this all really brave and all... John: What if there's strutural damage? What if the tower comes down with everyone in it? Carson: Sending him to the other side of the city is tantamount to murder. Rodney: The man is already dead. Carson: Like hell he is. John: I can’t order you to stand down. Carson: That’s right you can’t. Have your men standing by I'll open access to the floor once I've extracted the tumor.

Elizabeth: How long has he been at it. John: About 10 minutes. We have an emergency crew standing by. Either way we're covered. Elizabeth: Can’t you bypass his access code? Rodney: It’ll take at least a half hour. Elizabeth: This is crazy.

Infirmary: Carson has extracted the tumor. Puts it in carefully in a container. Carson: Colonel Sheppard: I've extracted the tumor. He enters his access code and opens door. John: He's on his way Just sit tight. Carson: Tell him I'll meet him half way. The sooner I get this out of my sight the better. Carson tells other doctor to finish up with Dr. Watson. He takes container. Walks slowly out of infirmary. Hazmat guy is hauling a containment unit. Carson gives unit to man. Turns and walks away.

Explosion happens. A fireball engulfs Carson from behind.

Carson’s room. Rodney is in a shirt and tie. Going thru Carson’s things. Picks of photo of himself and Carson in that field on the day Rodney got Cadman downloaded into his head. (Cadman, who was escorting them, must have taken it)

Ronon comes in. Are you ok?

Rodney: Not really.

Ronon: Need help?

Rodney: No. He didn’t have a lot of stuff here.

Ronon: You sending all back home to his family?

Rodney: Yeah. I mean we will. They don’t know yet. We’ll send his body back to earth and I’m going to tell his mother.

Rodney: I should have just gone fishing with him.

Ronon: Don't.

Rodney: If I had just gone fishing, if I had checked the machine, if I hadn’t sent two junior scientists to catalog the lab…

Ronon: Rodney, what’s done is done.

Rodney: I know and that’s what’s killing me.

Infirmary: Teyla is in bed. John comes in wearing his dress blues. Teyla wants to go to the memorial. John: I’ll get a wheel chair. Teyla: No I want to stand, as a testament to him. Teyla: How are you? John: It hasn’t hit me yet. I’m not looking forward to when it does. Teyla: I feel a great sadness. I feel... She’s has no other words. Teyla: A great sadness.

John helps Teyla up and they leave the infirmary.

Gateroom. The Gateroom is filled with people. There is a coffin draped in the Scottish flag is in the center of the room. Elizabeth steps up to the side of the coffin.

Elizabeth: We say goodbye to a lot of friends today. Our mission is a dangerous one. We lose people. A fact we are all painfully aware of. But Carson was… I can’t remember anyone coming to me with a complaint against him. Ever. He was a kind soul. He was a healer. And he will be very deeply missed. George Fabrica said: "Death comes to us all, but great achievements, they build a monument which shall endure until the sun grows cold.” Every single life Carson saved is a monument to him and that gives me great comfort.

Elizabeth looks up to the balcony and piper starts to play the bagpipes. The Gate dials. We look at all the faces of those closest to Carson.

John, Lorne and Radek walk to one side of the coffin. Rodney, Dr Cole and Ronon are on the other side. Elizabeth steps beside Teyla. The procession walks slowly thru the open wormhole as the bagpipe fades.

Out on a platform on the edge of Atlantis. It’s sunset. We see Rodney standing by himself, at the edge of the platform looking out over the ocean towards the horizon.

Rodney is wearing his uniform. We see Carson walk up to stand beside Rodney. Carson is wearing a simple black shirt.

Carson: How did go back on earth?

Rodney: It was, um, it was awful. Your family was amazing, though

Carson: Aye, they are. Good turnout?

Rodney: Oh, packed the church.

Carson: Oh, that’s good to hear.

Rodney: It’s not going to be the same here without you.

Carson: Oh, you’re telling me.

Rodney: You know, the universe is a big place. Who knows, maybe we’ll bump into each other again.

Carson: Aye. Who knows?

Rodney: You were the closest thing to a best friend that I ever had. I’m really, really, sorry. I should have just…

Carson: Hey. This isn’t your fault.

Rodney: You’re just telling me what you want me to hear.

Carson: Well, that’s what best friends do sometimes. And in this case, it also happens to be true. Take care of yourself, Rondey.

Rodney raises his hand.

Rodney: Goodbye, Carson.

The camera pulls back over the ocean. Carson fades from Rodney’s side. The view continues to pull back until we see all of Atlantis and Rodney is no longer visible on the platform.


I hate it. I haven't even seen the episdoe yet, and I already hate it. You did a good job with the transcript though....the ending made me cry-hell, I'm still crying...
Thanks. It wasn't really a transcript as I didn't write down every line, although I had to for the last scene with Carson and Rodney. I did it mainly for me. I know practically everyone here has seen the episode and won't want to read it having seen the real thing. But I love Carson and just felt I had to do it, if that makes any sense.


But most of all we had Carson meeting and speaking with everyone on his last ep.

Yes, exactly! I'm glad someone finally noticed this.

Sweetsong
January 16th, 2007, 09:10 PM
I don't know how at the memorial everyone is so straight faced while Weir is givinig her speech and I'm bawling my eyes out, tears just rolling down my face. This had the potential of a good "here's what we do when we have time off" humor episode, just never expected it would end on such a sad note which kind of spoiled it in my opinion.

Oka
January 16th, 2007, 09:15 PM
Didn't like the whole 3 hours ago, 10 hours ago, 5 hours ago thing. Good character episode though, some funny bits, some unnecessary bits. I liked it because it was sort of different from other SGA eps. Beckett's death could've been handled better, death by exploding tumor, come on! Do they have to kill likable characters? Couldn't they just have him leave for earth or something? It's not like he's gonna come back ever now since he's in fact dead.

7/10.

Shep Code
January 16th, 2007, 09:21 PM
I have to admit, I've been looking forward to this episode since the first mention of an episode where we got to see a "day off" in Atlantis. And even though some events occurred that I would rather have not seen...this episode certainly did not disappoint.

I really liked the format of the episode--following each of the characters as they went about their day off, the overlapping dramatic storyline that unfolded, Carson popping in and out of everyone's day. I was intrigued by Mike and his date lunch with Elizabeth (though normally I ship Elizabeth with John), mostly because it was wonderful to see Elizabeth outside of the "office" setting, and being treated like an actual woman instead of the fearless leader. Teyla weaseling her way out of golf practice and her girl talk with Dr. Houston--and her teasing of Elizabeth in regards to her lunch--was a nice development of Teyla's character, as it hinted that she does have a life outside of the team. I liked Shep and Ronon's adventures with various sports, and their "guy talk" (though Shep having been married previously does strike me as a little...contrived). Katie and Rodney were an unexpected, sweet surprise, and I was glad for the backstory of their relationship (and Rodney's flustered attempts at backing out of an inadvertant marriage proposal). Having glimpses of both Zelenka and Lorne (wow, I wish I had his artistic talent) relaxing were wonderful as well.

I think the most heartbreaking thing about this episode was Carson. I knew going into it that he was most likely a dead man, and seeing him being rejected by each of his friends--even though they didn't mean to hurt him--really twisted my heartstrings. I really, really didn't (and don't) want Carson off the show, but it was a well-written (and heartwrenching!) demise.

I appreciated how everyone was shown to have been affected by Carson's death--especially Rodney (the way he was looking at the picture broke my heart again) and Teyla (I'm wondering if Carson was who she was talking about at the beginning, especially with her trailing off sentence to John at the end...). The funeral was very well-done, and I loved Elizabeth's speech. I thought that John's silent support and check up on her with his glance was a nice touch as well.

There are so many more things I could touch upon in this episode, but suffice to say that this is definitely one of my favorite episodes, despite my disagreement in the choice of Carson leaving the show. It was an excellent episode overall.

10/10

Seldini
January 16th, 2007, 09:29 PM
I'm pissed at the way the writers handled Carson's death. Am I the only one who thinks Carson was completely wrong in what he did? Seriously, instead of condemning one man to death by random exploding tumor, he got himself killed AND got that bomb tech killed as well (don't tell me he survived, bull****, even in all that gear he can't survive that thing exploding in his hands.) Beckett should not be praised as a hero for his actions, he was wrong, DEAD WRONG. He didn't care if there was damage to the tower or any other repercussions from the explosion, he was going to be stubborn and do things his way. What if the ******* tower collapsed and the control room was destroyed, with the gate falling into the ocean? The writers really ruined his character; his actions were absurd, pigheaded and stupid.

watcher652
January 16th, 2007, 09:37 PM
I appreciated how everyone was shown to have been affected by Carson's death--especially Rodney (the way he was looking at the picture broke my heart again) and Teyla (I'm wondering if Carson was who she was talking about at the beginning, especially with her trailing off sentence to John at the end...).

Ooh, now there's a thought! Carson was quite caring when Charin died.

I still don't have my feelings all together for this episode, but I wanted to point out some random things that haven't been mentioned yet.

- Right before Rodney enters the Botany Lab, he checks his breath.
- Although Rodney is always going on about women with short blond hair, Katie has long hair that leans more towards red.
- Someone else pointed this out. Radek won all the anime dvds from a Dr. Mallozzi (first name Joseph?)
- Carson says he's head surgeon. We seen him operate before. So, doctor, head surgeon, geneticist. A genius in his own right.
- Rodney has a blue robe, wears a dark blue shirt on his off day, a light blue shirt to the memorial.
- When John is helping Teyla out of the Infirmary, we see Dr Watson was in the bed next to her.
- When they first pan the Gateroom at Carson's memorial, it's Rodney who's walking away from Carson's casket.
- When Elizabeth nods at the end of her comments, I though she was signalling the piper. She actually was nodding to the Canadian Gate techician to dial the Gate. (Can we please give the Sgt a name? This would have been the perfect episode to do it.)

The stupidest thing went through my mind when the casket was being carried back to Earth. I thought, "But Carson hates going thru the Gate!"

I thought it was interesting that Radek and Lorne would have no trouble going fishing with Carson, just they had already started something else that they didn't want to leave.

Some people think Dr. Biro is one of the pallbearers, but it's Dr. Cole. Dr. Cole has short blond hair cut short close to her neck. Dr. Biro wears glasses and her hair is a little longer and darker and fluffs out at the end. Although we've never seen Dr. Cole before, it's reasonable to assume that she's probably second in command in the Infirmary. She gave Carson a big hug when he let her go rest and take care of her migraine so they were close enough for that.

Carson is such a people person. Instead of going fishing by himself, when he didn't have a friend to go with, he decides to catch up on work.

twinchaosblade
January 16th, 2007, 10:01 PM
If I want meaningless, pointless death I'll watch Battlestar Galactica and or the evening news. In this particular case, all it does is point out the utter meaninglessness of killing off a great character who was an asset to the show both on screen and off. I don't watch SGA to be reminded how people die in real life; I watch SGA as a brief holiday from real life.

Alli and nonnie, I definitely second that statement!

Knowing that Carson was to die in 'Sunday' beforehand, when I read the spoilers, I was very disappointed at the way they did it. Okay, so he did save at least one or two lives but being killed by an exploding tumour when you already turned away from it...? Please! :(

Yet, no matter how they could have or actually did bring out his death, the episode as such was only meant to feature the untimely demise of a wonderful and most beloved character. The way that you could right from the beginning see that the only point of this would be writing an ep simply for the sake of dumping a lovely character and appreciated actor of the show, that painly hurt to the core!

And it was so obvious from the start that everybody would turn down Carson just to later regret it deeply and give them an extra bad feeling about it.

Unfortunately I have no doubt whatsoever that next week everything will be pretty much back to normal, perhaps with the exception of Rodney, who might just take a little longer to get over this. And in a few eps., the beginning of the next season at the latest, they will behave as if Beckett never existed at all, as if they didn't lose one of their closest friends just recently. This is really annoying! :mad:

And why did they have to get rid of this fantastic and what is more very unique character of Carson Beckett in the first place?

http://bestsmileys.com/frustrated/5.gif
I don't care how they do it, even if they have to pull some lazy stunt on him, I want Carson back as a regular on Atlantis!!!
They have really no idea how much they are hurting their own show! They need him, he adds so much to the overall feeling of SGA!

FallenAngelII
January 16th, 2007, 10:21 PM
Ok, I'm only at the 12:29 mark, but doesn't Carson seem to be a bit... gay? >_>' As in stereotypically gay. So far he's had some kind of heart-to-heart talk with Elizabeth where he was being a busy-body and trying to push her into a date (the gay best friend thing), then there's a little quasi-effette scene where he ends a sentence by snapping his fingers and saying "Thaaank you!" o_O

And for the slashers, there's the going out on a one-on-one with Rodney to "fish" :P. I can only imagine what the McBeckett slashers will turn that into.

Let's not mention the fact that Rodney never thought of going on a "date" with Katie on his day off 'til he needed an excuse to get out of fishing despite "having made an effort to make time for Katie in recent times".

Also: Some lives are worth more than others? I love Carson, I really do, but did they have to send him back by Stargate even though their ZPMs are limited (3 at the moment but why use up more than you have to?). This is the first and only time I've ever seen them send someone back by Stargate.

So is Carson so special he deserves something others don't in death? Is it a senior staff thing? I know that it's a very nice gesture, but when you look at the grand scheme of things, wouldn't Carson want to be treated just like any other person; to be taken back by the Daedalus?

And, well, he certainly didn't Ascend unless they're retconning themselves now. Instead of going all glowy, he faded out. Not something Ascended beings do.

Night Spring
January 16th, 2007, 11:53 PM
Just finished watching Sunday, and I'm sure this sentiment has been stated many times already but I just need to get it off my chest before sitting down to read all the previous posts, so please pardon me...

They finally, finally show John in class-A uniform, and it's for Carson's funeral!!!!!! Aaaaaaaaaargh!!!!!! Now I'll never be able to see John in that uniform without tearing up!!!! *sob*

macktheknife
January 16th, 2007, 11:56 PM
This was Heroes mkII.

Checklist:

Pointless Death. Tick. Both.

Pointless Death of Doctor. Tick. Both

Ridiculous situation. Tick. Beckett manages to operate and pull out a "explosive" tumour stick it in a box, then decides instead of him, the female doctor/nurse and maybe the scientist guy moving away from the tumour, he will take it instead. Fraiser goes out for about the 2nd time ever through the stargate, somehow manages to break through the supposed overwhelming enemy, to help ONE soldier, and then they get flanked and she dies.

Now it remains to be seen if the replacement doctor only lasts half a season like the chick from andromeda (i've forgotten her name she was that brief in the show).

Atlantis on Sci-Fi will only last 2 more seasons before it gets "non-renewed".

FallenAngelII
January 17th, 2007, 12:00 AM
Now it remains to be seen if the replacement doctor only lasts half a season like the chick from andromeda (i've forgotten her name she was that brief in the show).

Atlantis on Sci-Fi will only last 2 more seasons before it gets "non-renewed".
Unless you're referring to some other female doctor on SG-1, I'm pretty sure you're talking about Lexa Doig (Carolyn Lam). Though she isn't seen often, she has yet to be transferred or die (as far as I know) nor do they plan for her to.

And on "Andromeda", she played Andromeda IIRC.

Korean_Turtle87
January 17th, 2007, 12:07 AM
I want to wraith the person who came up with the idea of killing off Carson:wraithanime11: Aside from that, it was a great episode. Teyla was becoming more Earth washed?

macktheknife
January 17th, 2007, 12:11 AM
Unless you're referring to some other female doctor on SG-1, I'm pretty sure you're talking about Lexa Doig (Carolyn Lam). Though she isn't seen often, she has yet to be transferred or die (as far as I know) nor do they plan for her to.

And on "Andromeda", she played Andromeda IIRC.

Yep, I'd forgotten her name since it's been so long since I've had to refer to her doing anything. Whilst she might not be "dead" or "transferred" I think the last episode I saw her in was either Prototype or perhaps the 2 parter with the plague.

Herm... thought of another similarity:

* Both replace by female doctor, played by an actress from another sci-fi show.

I will also like to register my disguist at some random who is not Sheppard kissing Elizabeth.

IronGoliath
January 17th, 2007, 12:21 AM
This episode was the first show that ever has made me break down to tears.

I have no other words for this episode.

Beautiful, just beautiful.

PG15
January 17th, 2007, 12:21 AM
then decides instead of him, the female doctor/nurse and maybe the scientist guy moving away from the tumour, he will take it instead.

I'm almost certain that he said the guy couldn't be moved at that moment; that's what Carson said before the operation when McKay told him about Watson's "condition".

Jenner8675309
January 17th, 2007, 12:24 AM
Ok, I finally got the nerve to watch Sunday. I think on a whole the episode was long overdue. The majority of the episode was fantastic. The interaction between the cast members was fabulous and there were so many great Beckett lines that I laughed out loud to.

And I will admit (I am a Beckett lover of course) that I cried at the end (and cried and cried. Hello how old am I? Sigh). Yes, it was tragically beautiful. But I still think they way he went out was stupid (exploding tumors? seriously?).

Its said people die to make life meaningful. And I agree and that may have been what they were aiming for. They almost hit it, but not quite. The last scene with McKay was nice, but not quite enough for me. And Weirs speech fell really flat at the memorial. And even if they had hit the mark, I still think Beckett was too endearing to lose. Ok, so I just contradicted myself (I just don't want to let him go), its the endearing ones that we learn from the most and impact us the most........As much as I wanted to all out hate this episode I can't and I am a Beckett FANATIC.

I still wish (and think) he didn't really have to die, but this was a good episode. Like I said, could have used some work at the end, but damn, it still was fairly powerful.


But I will never watch the show in the same way again. I'll always miss Beckett, he was such a wonderful part of the show. He can never, ever be replaced (again, probably what they were going for...I just still wish it wasn't my character!)

B O Y S C O U T
January 17th, 2007, 12:25 AM
Amazing Episode

Halessa
January 17th, 2007, 12:28 AM
I'm pissed at the way the writers handled Carson's death. Am I the only one who thinks Carson was completely wrong in what he did? Seriously, instead of condemning one man to death by random exploding tumor, he got himself killed AND got that bomb tech killed as well (don't tell me he survived, bull****, even in all that gear he can't survive that thing exploding in his hands.) Beckett should not be praised as a hero for his actions, he was wrong, DEAD WRONG. He didn't care if there was damage to the tower or any other repercussions from the explosion, he was going to be stubborn and do things his way. What if the ******* tower collapsed and the control room was destroyed, with the gate falling into the ocean? The writers really ruined his character; his actions were absurd, pigheaded and stupid.

I absolutely and totally agree with you. No matter how much you care as a doctor for your patients, he have had the damn duty to stand down in that situation. I mean, remember TNG? They had the rule that the captain has to stay on board of the ship, and not go on away missions because the captain is the most vital part of the crew. And now compare it with Beckett - he is head of staff in the medical departement, in another galaxy, in a secret mission and he is a specialist in genetics as well as exobiology. There is much experience and education behind such a character. You can't just snip with your finger and get someone who fits that profile. Oh well, I think thats not the point - they already have somone with BOOBS!:zelenka26:

FallenAngelII
January 17th, 2007, 12:30 AM
I too felt that it was stupid of Carson to be the one to deliver the tumor (and for the nurse for letting him do it) as he's the chief of staff and obviously the most qualified medical staff member on the expedition.

It's like having John go off and deliver it with a random grunt standing around.

It was obviously a cheap cop-out, used to make his death "heroic". Equally as stupid as Janet suddenly going off world to save one soldier in an on-going battle.

Halessa
January 17th, 2007, 12:33 AM
Unfortunately I have no doubt whatsoever that next week everything will be pretty much back to normal, perhaps with the exception of Rodney, who might just take a little longer to get over this. And in a few eps., the beginning of the next season at the latest, they will behave as if Beckett never existed at all, as if they didn't lose one of their closest friends just recently. This is really annoying! :mad:


yes, that is what I have thought, too. In "real life" you just don't go back to work in the same way after you lost a friend or a loved one. It takes time to mourn, weeks, months, sometimes even years. And I am pretty sure that next week, the show will get to normal and at least at the beginning of S4 they wil never speak of him again.

IronGoliath
January 17th, 2007, 12:39 AM
Ok, I have words for the episode now. I have to get a kleenex.

Carson Beckett died ina good way. Saving someones life. Saving people is his life, because he's a bloody ruddy damn scrubby doctor. And I think he died honorably, and if anyone else in Atlantis were to be cut from the story line, they would die the same way. Doing the thing they do best.

For example, when they kill off Sheppard, he will most probably be dying like D'argo did in Farscape. Fighting until there is nothing left to fuel the muscles that press the trigger that kills the enemys.

It fits. All reactions and emotions should have had a bit of a breakdown though, from the other cast members.

ascended alteran
January 17th, 2007, 12:59 AM
This episode sucked. They were just trying to find a way to get rid of Beckett.
Way too many flashbacks.

Belamel
January 17th, 2007, 01:07 AM
So I just watched the end of Sunday for a 2nd time and I feel like a bit of a masochist because it just hurts my heart to watch. I do feel like I just lost a friend. That's the thing about Carson, he's the character that I would want for a friend in real life. He's the one that I personally identify with the most. Even though I want to be open minded about the future, I am afraid that every time I watch the show in the future I am going to continue to feel the resentment at TPTB that I do now. :mad: Time will tell.

On the other hand, I have watched the Sheppard/Ronon scenes a few times and every time I laugh out loud. That was some funny stuff. One armed, one legged, stick fighting...priceless. :zelenka25:

Linzi
January 17th, 2007, 01:17 AM
Ronon says he isn't ready for another romance. When is ready? Its been 8-1/2 years! He was on the run for 7, and been on Atlantis for a year and a half. The dude needs some serious sessions with Heightmeyer.


I still think the exploding tumor idea came from SG1's "Singularity", especially seeing how the writers have ripped off so much from SG1 this season. Ugh.

I have a friend who's been widowed for 12 years. She hasn't had a relationship since her husband died, and he died when they were very young, and says she never will again. So, I don't think it's that unusual. I have another friend who lost her fiancé ten years ago, when she was in her ealry twenties, and she's hasn't had another relationship so far - she just can't and won't let go. It may not be healthy, but that's the way some people are.
You know, not everything is about SG1, or has been stolen from SG1*sigh* Sg1's ideas are often similar to those from other shows. What is original anyway?
Sunday bore no resemblance to any SG1 episode I've ever seen - and I've seen them all. So, sorry, I disagree.

Hatcheter
January 17th, 2007, 01:21 AM
Beautiful episode.

Linzi
January 17th, 2007, 01:25 AM
yes, that is what I have thought, too. In "real life" you just don't go back to work in the same way after you lost a friend or a loved one. It takes time to mourn, weeks, months, sometimes even years. And I am pretty sure that next week, the show will get to normal and at least at the beginning of S4 they wil never speak of him again.
As nice as it would be to have Carson mourned for a long period of time on screen, realistically it can't happen - the show has to move forward as life does. Just because the characters don't mention him doesn't mean they won't be thinking of him. I think they would be.
We never know exactly how much time passes between episodes, so it's impossible to say how long people have mourned, and by next episode the wounds may not be so raw.
I agree it would be nice to see some mention of Carson again, to know he's not forgotten, but realistically, people move on and keep their grief private.
Much of the time, I'd imagine, the expedition members are too busy to even think about those that have died. In their quieter moments, I'm sure they'd think about Carson, but on screen we rarely get to see those moments. So the magic reset button is most likely what will happen and is a fact of life in television such as Stargate.

Linzi
January 17th, 2007, 01:28 AM
So I just watched the end of Sunday for a 2nd time and I feel like a bit of a masochist because it just hurts my heart to watch. I do feel like I just lost a friend. That's the thing about Carson, he's the character that I would want for a friend in real life. He's the one that I personally identify with the most. Even though I want to be open minded about the future, I am afraid that every time I watch the show in the future I am going to continue to feel the resentment at TPTB that I do now. :mad: Time will tell.

On the other hand, I have watched the Sheppard/Ronon scenes a few times and every time I laugh out loud. That was some funny stuff. One armed, one legged, stick fighting...priceless. :zelenka25:
I know what you mean. Every time I watch the end my heart just squeezes tight in my chest. Yet, at the same time, I find myself thinking back to the stick fighting, one-legged flag game, Sheppard and Ronon playing golf, and Rodney's not-marriage proposal to Katie , and I just titter! Comedy IS best when it's interspersed with great drama. :):(

Celcool
January 17th, 2007, 01:43 AM
I will also like to register my disguist at some random who is not Sheppard kissing Elizabeth.
Too bad it wasn't John with whom she went on a date, yes. It would be perfect. Nevertheless I just liked the fact that she got to go on a date and kiss a guy! :weir:


yes, that is what I have thought, too. In "real life" you just don't go back to work in the same way after you lost a friend or a loved one. It takes time to mourn, weeks, months, sometimes even years. And I am pretty sure that next week, the show will get to normal and at least at the beginning of S4 they wil never speak of him again.
I hope they don't do that, just act like this episode never happened. I wouldn't be surprised though if there'd be no continuity. Nothing can surprise me in relation to the writing in this show anymore.

Domesticated Equine
January 17th, 2007, 02:05 AM
As nice as it would be to have Carson mourned for a long period of time on screen, realistically it can't happen - the show has to move forward as life does. Just because the characters don't mention him doesn't mean they won't be thinking of him. I think they would be.
We never know exactly how much time passes between episodes, so it's impossible to say how long people have mourned, and by next episode the wounds may not be so raw.
I agree it would be nice to see some mention of Carson again, to know he's not forgotten, but realistically, people move on and keep their grief private.
Much of the time, I'd imagine, the expedition members are too busy to even think about those that have died. In their quieter moments, I'm sure they'd think about Carson, but on screen we rarely get to see those moments. So the magic reset button is most likely what will happen and is a fact of life in television such as Stargate.

Of course it can happen, plenty of shows have a character killed whose death impacts the others in future episodes. It's not that hard to do, but I do think it's beyond the SGA writers, who most of the time don't care about the continuity of the plots and characters one bit. I'd love to be proven wrong, but I think the characters have soon forgotten all about the good doctor.

Linzi
January 17th, 2007, 02:12 AM
Of course it can happen, plenty of shows have a character killed whose death impacts the others in future episodes. It's not that hard to do, but I do think it's beyond the SGA writers, who most of the time don't care about the continuity of the plots and characters one bit. I'd love to be proven wrong, but I think the characters have soon forgotten all about the good doctor.
I think the problem is that SGA isn't a serialised show. Storylines don't often continue over into the next episode, and there are many stand alone episodes. It's all to do with success in syndication, we're told, but I don't know if that's true.

welwynrose
January 17th, 2007, 02:23 AM
thought this was a brilliant episode - although I'm disappointed that they decided to write the Character out I think they handled it well

Domesticated Equine
January 17th, 2007, 02:23 AM
I think the problem is that SGA isn't a serialised show. Storylines don't often continue over into the next episode, and there are many stand alone episodes. It's all to do with success in syndication, we're told, but I don't know if that's true.

That's true of course, Stargate has always been mostly a collection of one-off plots and that's obviously a concious choice. Even so, that doesn't mean you have to use the reset button in every aspect of the show every episode. You could have character arcs going throughout the season and still manage to keep casual viewers interested with the plot-of-the-week that they can get into without having seen the previous episodes. Of course, I'd rather take full-blown serialized stories, but having at least some kind of continuity would be nice.

djmc26
January 17th, 2007, 02:30 AM
well
good episode but the decision to make Carson die is a idiocy...
He was sure one of my fav char....
I will like less the show from now on, it is evident..
i dont know why they fired him...really...not even USEFUL to the plot itself thsi death..
bah..i dont know !

Linzi
January 17th, 2007, 02:30 AM
That's true of course, Stargate has always been mostly a collection of one-off plots and that's obviously a concious choice. Even so, that doesn't mean you have to use the reset button in every aspect of the show every episode. You could have character arcs going throughout the season and still manage to keep casual viewers interested with the plot-of-the-week that they can get into without having seen the previous episodes. Of course, I'd rather take full-blown serialized stories, but having at least some kind of continuity would be nice.
I don't disagree with you here. I'm sure there will be some mention of Carson as the series goes on. However, when I've watched some shows that are serialised which have character deaths, often I've still felt they move on too quickly. I remember an Australian medical soap I watched many moons ago. A main cast character died of lukaemia, and I cried my heart out, sobbed for hours. Even though it was a serialised show, and the departed character was mentioned many times after, it was never enough to attone for the death of said character. I think Sunday was a great episode. I didn't want Carson to die. His death seemed a little pointless to me. But, in the end, I think they gave him a good send off.

Alipeeps
January 17th, 2007, 02:56 AM
You know I haven't seen Sunday yet and I am really anxious to do so. However, I have been reading a lot of the comments and although I agree and I am sad that Beckett is gone, I agree that unfortunately it's part of life, we all had moments in our lives when we say I should have done this or that. Think about it this way, what if Carson would have gone fishing either with Rodney, John or Ronan. How many would have died because he wasn't there to operate on this guy, to do his job. Would he be saying, I wish I wouldn't have gone fishing, maybe I could of save so many lifes, so if people don't see him as a hero in this episode, I just don't get it.

Precisely. For example, if Beckett had gone fishing... he would not have been there to operate on Teyla. And from the nurse's comments, the operation was not a simple one, she was impressed that he had been able to repair the damage as well as he had. Who knows how many more people would have died had Beckett not been there?


Ronon says he isn't ready for another romance. When is ready? Its been 8-1/2 years! He was on the run for 7, and been on Atlantis for a year and a half. The dude needs some serious sessions with Heightmeyer.


He spent 7 years on the run from the Wraith, thinking about nothing but surviving for one more day. I doubt in that period he had chance to come to terms with his loss and what had happened... he didn't even know that Sateda itself had been destroyed. Effectively, emotionally-speaking, it's almost as if his life was on hold during those seven years. It's only in the last 1 and a half years that he's had a stable enough situation to allow himself the luxury of contemplation, of grieving for his losses and coming to terms with what happened to him.

I don't think it's at all surprising that he's not ready yet.

expendable_crewman
January 17th, 2007, 03:00 AM
The first few moments felt a tad awkward as we are suddenly drawn into the personal lives of these characters which we've seen time-and-time again in mortal danger, only exposing the part of them wishing for survival. At best, we saw grace under pressure (pun definately not intended), and a little humor/snark between buddies. But this was different. It was jarring, yes, but once I got used to it, everything became that much more wholesome, that much more sweet. I was watching the people I knew having fun, enjoying life, and all that good stuff that they've deserved since day 1.
Ah, yes. You have nailed my experience perfectly. You found the piece that, for me, won't settle. Watching from the comfort of one's living room, you'd think your characters getting thrown into mortal danger week after week exposes enough. After a few seasons of it, you start to believe, and rightly so, that you know what the characters care about, do, and think, even on their "off" time.

I found the character moments sometimes uneven and at other times cringe-worthy, which is to say they (dare I say it) mimicked life. It was the character moments that drove home this tragedy and, as you said, forced it through my skin.

It's not just that we the audience lost Carson. It's that John, Rodney, Teyla, Ronon, and Weir lost Carson.

Domesticated Equine
January 17th, 2007, 04:01 AM
I don't disagree with you here. I'm sure there will be some mention of Carson as the series goes on. However, when I've watched some shows that are serialised which have character deaths, often I've still felt they move on too quickly. I remember an Australian medical soap I watched many moons ago. A main cast character died of lukaemia, and I cried my heart out, sobbed for hours. Even though it was a serialised show, and the departed character was mentioned many times after, it was never enough to attone for the death of said character. I think Sunday was a great episode. I didn't want Carson to die. His death seemed a little pointless to me. But, in the end, I think they gave him a good send off.

Yeah, I agree with you as well. Serialization isn't a guarantee for success but you can do things with serialized shows that you can't with just stand alone episodes. For an example of a show that handled the death of a character well, I think Farscape was very succesful when Talyn-John died. It would have been easy to trivialize the death as there was another John around, but the characters felt the effects of this loss very painfully, none moreso than Aeryn.

MechaThor
January 17th, 2007, 04:09 AM
That was a cool episode they way it was made with the interlinking stories and the mix of humour and drama.

You also got to see all the major and minor characters which i liked. Shame gd old Coldwell was there. I would of loved to see what hermiod would have been doing on his day off. My gess would be playing Gears of War on the Xbox 360 lol.

Rather than speak about Carsons death/accention shice we know his a reacurring i would rather mention my fav parts.

-Ronan learning about Golf then playing capture the flag ronan style was cool.
-Teyla talking about the guy she likes. Is it the marine? is it sheppard? is it ronan? or all 3 ;)
-Sheppard asking Ronan if he has a boyfriend. Then seeing the look on his face lol!
-Mckay asking that fern girl to marry him by mistake.
-Lorne painting
-Zelenka winning chess in one move and winning some Ainime DVDs.
-Carson trying to go fishing.

Also its werid how Ronans 1rst time to Earth (that we know off) was holding up a coffin. Which can't of had a body in it as i am sure he accended?

Domesticated Equine
January 17th, 2007, 04:13 AM
Which can't of had a body in it as i am sure he accended?

There's no way in my mind he ascended. The way I saw it, the last scene was just Rodney speaking with his subconcious mind. Beckett is dead and buried.

jerkface
January 17th, 2007, 04:57 AM
Well, I've been slogging through these 15 (!) pages, so maybe I missed it, but was I the only one who found this episode unintentionally funny?

Honestly, I did try and like this episode. Whatever my reservations about the coming changes in Season 4, I wanted to watch the end of 3, hoping for moments as strong as some in its opening episodes.

I've even liked nearly all of Gero's past episodes. I did think most of the actors did a fine job with the given material. Zelenka's chess scene was cute anyway.

But damn, other than that, Sunday just seemed like an incredibly awkward jumble of abrupt character development and laugh-inducing bathos. Sheppard was married? Teyla and Elizabeth are suddenly focused on dating? Rodney's considering marriage?

...and people's tumors are exploding in the middle of hallways?! :jack_new_anime06:

And that all leads into the closing, unexplained ghost scene! Well, sure, that makes perfect sense! Nothing says science fiction like a good ol' ghost scene!

Or maybe it was just Rodney imagining talking to Carson. That makes just as much sense, after all, as Rodney's belief in magical spirits has been well established previously.

Just like it makes sense that Rodney's and Elizabeth's big emotional scenes are with people we've either never or barely seen before. I feel like I know so much about Katie and Mike, and their devotion to plants...and...long hair?

And, hey Carson and Rodney were really better friends with one another than anyone else. (I guess John never did trust Rodney again after Trinity...and their scenes together in Tao weren't all that important?)

Did I miss something? When did this show become a joke?

Pitry
January 17th, 2007, 05:11 AM
The irnoy of it all is, Sunday is probably the best Atlantis episode aired to date.

Loved every second of this (even the ones that got me whimpering). So many things the show so desperately needed were addressed here. I loved the format of the episode, keeping you on your toes and yet managing to convey everything else, as well.


Elizabeth having a personal life - well, I thought that Mike bloke was a tad bit smug, but hey! They make a nice couple :). Teyla, shown to have activities with other Earth personal - hey, if they actually bothered to show this side of her more often, I wouldn't've complained so much at how non-alien she is. She's always struck me as so much Earth-ised, os early in the show. But if she's seen in her every day life, inserted into scenarios that allow her to make comments that show the cultural difference, this could actually work. Here's to more day to day interaction for her. Loved the Weir half cancelling on Teyla, half begging her not to let her cancel :) Finally, the long awaited interaction between the two of them. I think they do get along well together, and it could have been so much help for Teyla's character, giving her this every one in a while (small sigh).

Sheppard and Ronon. Again, sorely missed til now. Yes, we've seen these two together. This was more a continuation of a relationship than the first portrayel of one... but it was done in a great, contributing way. They do sit around and talk. They do play together - loved Ronon's "game" ha! I'm actually thinking they're finally starting finding their footing around Ronon, starting to see his point. the character really is starting to make more sense.... more on that front as well, please.

Rodney... dating! Ahhhh! And that reference to McKay and Mrs Miller... yes, the character is growing, is evolving... I love Rodney's insane hysteria, but seeing him stumbling on a whole different dimension is just as well. Plus, this interaction with Katie finally corrected what is one of my biggest pet peeves about Duet - Rodney can interact with people, and he's shown it plenty of times before, and here he is, acting like a human being, a guy who really likes a girl, and not the stupid caricature of Duet. And his speech when wakened from sleep - genius!

Lorne painting! Zelenka's chess games! ha!
And yeah. Carson. Sigh. So I was exposed to the news he does die, and doesn't "disappear" as had been stated before, before the episode. Part of the reaosn for whimpering - when it became clear how the Rodney-Carson interaction's going to go, Rodney trying to get off fishing and p[romising him to go next week... yup, one of the whimpering moments. I can't believe they did something like to Rodney. That scene with Ronon - well, at least they used it. As a whole, Carson was so charming in this episode, sniff. And sigh, that last scene. Yes, it was pure cheese, Carson's "ghost" - or rather, memory... but it should have been there, at least in some form, if not with the full cheese of it. A shame they're utilising Carsopn so well in the one episode he's being killed off, and not in the entire season.

As for the stupid "explosive tumor" excuse... oh, come on. SG1 had always had the grace not to use stupid pklot devices - well, most of the time. I can see - and agree - why they didn't wan tto make this a bomber episode. That wasn;t the centre of the episode, it would have stolen the story into a direction they shouldn't've gone to, not in this episode. But there must have been a better way than explosive tumors. Sigh.

Stargate's always killed characters well, I'd grant them that. And Sunday was no exception, an excellent episode, and an excellent goodbye to a fantastic character. But Stargate Atlantis, at the place it's right now with characters, cannot afford killing off one of its better established characters - a mistake that hopefully whoever made that stupid decision would realise. Now there's only hoping they would be wise enough to utilise this death in the better way - following the Daniel Jackson example - and not the worse way - following the Janet Frasier and the complete lack of mention for a season and a half example. They could actually use this to give some beef and humanity to those characters who lack it most.

excellent, cruel, wonderful, heart jerking, and the best SGA episode I've seen. More of those please - just without the killing major characters part.

Domesticated Equine
January 17th, 2007, 05:13 AM
Did I miss something? When did this show become a joke?

The second season, I'd say.

Anyway, I agree with a lot of what you said but I feel the abruptness of the character development can't really be helped since we usually don't have any. At least there's some effort in this episode.

And regarding the final scene, I'm of the opinion that Beckett wasn't a ghost or anything like that. It was just a visual way of showing us Rodney coming to grips with Beckett's death.

Pitry
January 17th, 2007, 05:15 AM
As nice as it would be to have Carson mourned for a long period of time on screen, realistically it can't happen - the show has to move forward as life does. Just because the characters don't mention him doesn't mean they won't be thinking of him. I think they would be.
We never know exactly how much time passes between episodes, so it's impossible to say how long people have mourned, and by next episode the wounds may not be so raw.
I agree it would be nice to see some mention of Carson again, to know he's not forgotten, but realistically, people move on and keep their grief private.
Much of the time, I'd imagine, the expedition members are too busy to even think about those that have died. In their quieter moments, I'm sure they'd think about Carson, but on screen we rarely get to see those moments. So the magic reset button is most likely what will happen and is a fact of life in television such as Stargate.

I disagree - Daniel Jackson was mourned properly in SG1, there is the entire theme of Daniel's death running through season 6. They can find the time to insert a comment, like in Paradise Lost. Mention him every once in a while, like they did a lot in season 6. Make sure we know he's missed, like Redemption, Shadow Play - no, we won't get the affective ackwnoledgements of Changeling and Abyss, but I think he can still be mourned throughout the show. No, if ever this show makes it to 10 years, I don't expect them to mention him this far ahead. But for the near future, for the past season or two, I think this would be the best way to develop the rest of the character, to make this death at least be worthwhile, even if just a tad bit.

travis
January 17th, 2007, 05:58 AM
Fantastic ep totally enjoyed it. Loved all the characters moments in this even all the sub characters were great. I say write these sub character more offten as it make Atlantis more real and alive. With all these shipping moments I even got a little bit gidddy myself. Weir and Katie was just to cute and adorable.

Sad about Carson got bit teary there though I said I would'nt but hey you just have to it touching. I notice some fans has mention that Carsons departure in this ep was stupid or not right, but personally I thought it was fine. He even died a hero imo. He died as a true doctor risking his life to save another.
Chin chin to you Carson R.I.P

Commander Ivanova
January 17th, 2007, 06:03 AM
Poor Teyla was obviously working up to make a move on Beckett, not Shep as many assume. Poor lass held herself together well during the service, though.

jerkface
January 17th, 2007, 06:09 AM
The second season, I'd say.


Sadly true. :/

At least with S2 though, I felt like they were trying to do more meaningful storylines (though pulling their punches so often undercut most of their efforts). I just feel so frustrated with S3 in particular since it all seems so aimless. It feels like they dangle character moments in hopes of distracting from their lack of an original, underlying plot.



And regarding the final scene, I'm of the opinion that Beckett wasn't a ghost or anything like that. It was just a visual way of showing us Rodney coming to grips with Beckett's death.

Yeah, if I'm being more than sarcastic, I do think you're right, but it's that lack of explanation that frustrates me even more. It just seems like poor storytelling. They want Rodney and Carson to have a closing conversation, but they also want Carson to die abruptly, so they just don't explain how they've made both happen. And then they add a schmaltzy setting because that all isn't annoying enough.

sueKay
January 17th, 2007, 06:11 AM
I think I picked up a Teyla/Beckett vibe in this epiosde, and I hope they use it in future episodes both as development for Teyla, and also as a way to keep Beckett 'alive' on the show.

Commander Ivanova
January 17th, 2007, 06:13 AM
Yeah, if you watch it again and assume Teyla was talking about Carson it totally fits.
EDIT: 68 PEOPLE READING THIS THREAD!

Callie
January 17th, 2007, 06:32 AM
It's not just that we the audience lost Carson. It's that John, Rodney, Teyla, Ronon, and Weir lost Carson.

And, even more painfully, Joe, David, Rachel, Jason and Torri unwillingly lost McGillion.

I've never cried so much typing a transcript before. Having to go through the build-up to Carson's death a little bit at a time was truly painful.

Not even the re-emergence of Shep's underpants cheered me up. :-(

talyn2k1
January 17th, 2007, 07:24 AM
This is the second time I have *almost* shed a tear this year (the first being Tao of Rodney) - SG-1 has only done that once to me in its entire 10 year run in Meridian when Daniel is dying.

I am terribly sorry to see Carson gone, he was probably my favourite character next to Rodney. But he died a hero - just like Janet. There is no other way he could've gone.

This was a fantastic episode from beginning to end and the fact that I nearly teared up show just how much the writers have developed the characters this year. If this episode had been last season my eyes would've been dryer than Abydos!

Good scenes:
Rodney & Katie talking about marriage :D
Ronon & Shep fighting
Radek's chess game
Carson being the hero.
Carson's memorial and the Rodney/Carson spirit scene at the end.

There are MANY others but these are the best.


Bad Scenes:
Realising that an explosion that big had only melted a wall. Was hoping for much more devastation.
Weir and that guy...not interested.

It sucks to lose Carson but he couldn`t have gone out in a better way.

10/10

Poltergeist
January 17th, 2007, 07:45 AM
Carson being the mystery man :confused: Teyla was talking about, nope didn't catch that vibe at all, personally I think she was refering to Sheppard myself.

macktheknife
January 17th, 2007, 07:45 AM
I'm almost certain that he said the guy couldn't be moved at that moment; that's what Carson said before the operation when McKay told him about Watson's "condition".

"Yes, lets risk everyone's lives instead of just one redshirt!"

If they moved the scientist, it would have blown up behind them and beckett would be alive to try and save him again. If scientist died, he was probably going to anyway and both the nurse, beckett and the poorly equipped bomb disposal guy would be most likely safe. Instead he leaves a nurse, takes the tumour very slowly (which could have blown up in their 3 faces) towards the bomb disposal guy and you know what happens next.

BJX
January 17th, 2007, 07:48 AM
This is the second time I have *almost* shed a tear this year (the first being Tao of Rodney) - SG-1 has only done that once to me in its entire 10 year run in Meridian when Daniel is dying.

I am terribly sorry to see Carson gone, he was probably my favourite character next to Rodney. But he died a hero - just like Janet. There is no other way he could've gone.

This was a fantastic episode from beginning to end and the fact that I nearly teared up show just how much the writers have developed the characters this year. If this episode had been last season my eyes would've been dryer than Abydos!

Good scenes:
Rodney & Katie talking about marriage :D
Ronon & Shep fighting
Radek's chess game
Carson being the hero.
Carson's memorial and the Rodney/Carson spirit scene at the end.

There are MANY others but these are the best.


Bad Scenes:
Realising that an explosion that big had only melted a wall. Was hoping for much more devastation.
Weir and that guy...not interested.

It sucks to lose Carson but he couldn`t have gone out in a better way.

10/10

Not much point in me writing what I thought of this episode because I would be re-writing this post. I agree completely.

I'll just add that I really hope we see the effects of this episode on McKay through the rest of the season. It would be nice to see him spiral into a depression (which could open the possibility for Carson to return) or at least dealing with the knowledge that Carson could still be alive if he had gone fishin'. And I really want to see more of him and Katie together. Their scenes together are hilarious and it would be nice to see Rodney in a relationship.

John and Ronan playing golf was cool, and I loved seeing John and Lorne in their full dress uniform, I think that's the first time we've seen Sheppard dressed like that.

Absolutely fantastic episode; one of the best ever. Bravo Martin Gero, Paul McGillion and the whole team for having the courage to make this episode.

ata_beckett
January 17th, 2007, 08:26 AM
I've watched it a few more times since yesterday (I can't believe I actually rewatched the ending-- cried on the second and third viewing too, omg) and now that I'm over the shock, I wanna list all of the great little character moments that I liked about this episode. Sorry if I reiterate a few things that have already been said....


:teyla: Teyla
I loved her in this episode, though, like many other episodes in the past, I wish there had been more of her.

:sheppard: Sheppard

His pathetic little attempt a mimicking Ronon's golf swing. Hahahah!

He's SUCH a sore loser. Most people would have figured out after round one of Ronon's game that there was no way that they could win. HAH. Oh, John.

Am I the only one still trying to figure out what John was listening to in his quarters? I mean, we know he likes Cash, but that didn't sound like Cash to me.



:ronan: Ronon

The fact that he's not over Melena yet. A friend of mine speculated that he probably wouldn't be, and LOOK. Confirmed! I know III wouldn't be over my significant other being exploded in a fireball right in front of me for a LONG time. But that's just me.

You'd think that the whole Ronon being good at EVERYTHING physical thing would get old, but I still died laughing at the golf scene.


:zelenka: Zelenka

"CARSAAAAAN!"

I love that Zelenka's getting more screentime these days. He KILLED me with the look that he gave Carson after he talked about the Swedish massage.

He's such a big dork. I love it.

Lorne
I'm not sure how I feel about Lorne, though they've kinda been shoving him in our faces for a little while now. Eh. Maybe they'll give him an actual personality one day.

:mckay: Rodney
He was SOO adorable with Katie Brown-- and I usually find neither David Hewlett NOR Rodney adorable, so that's saying a lot. He's not Snarky, Caustic McKay around her, and he's just really likeable. Not that I want SGA to become some weird romantic-comedy-scifi show, but I really hope that we get to see more of Katie.

:beckett: Carson
I hate that they chose the episode where they 'off' Carson to be the one where they remind me just why I love the character so much.


The facial expressions, omg. McGillion is just darn good at saying things without saying them anyway, but he was fantastic at it in this episode. One that stands out the most is the look that he gives Rodney in the infirmary after he's just given the scientists a tongue lashing.

One of my favorite Carson moments of the entire episode was right after the explosion happened. Without even a second thought, he jumps right into action, and all I could think was "Wow. He's GOOD."

The fact that Carson can pull off saying things like "easy peasy".

The one line--after he tells Dr. Cole (yes, COLE. Not Keller. This was NOT Jewel Staite.) to take the day off, when she says "Carson, you're a lifesaver", and he just goes "I know"...KILLED ME.

Carson being Weir's 'gay best friend'. Nooo, I DON'T think Carson's gay, but HAAAA! "OOOOH Don't YOU look lovely!!"

And I think what REALLY gets me about Carson in this episode is his complete selflessness. And it comes so naturally to him, that it HAS to be in his nature and not just as a result of being a doctor. He didn't have to think for more than a second about whether or not he was going to stay and operate on Watson. As long as there was a chance the man would live, he was going to take it.

Every time I watch this episode, I find something else that I love about it. Great job, all around.

i found forever
January 17th, 2007, 08:30 AM
eh, it was an ok episode. liked some parts, hated others.


Carson being the mystery man Teyla was talking about, nope didn't catch that vibe at all, personally I think she was refering to Sheppard myself.

I don't know where people are seeing Teyla/Carson, but each to their own. I don't think she was talking about Shep ether, for several reasons (which I posted on other threads so I'm not going to do it all over agan, too lazy). That was a very ambiguous scene and probably not about anyone.

ata_beckett
January 17th, 2007, 08:33 AM
eh, it was an ok episode. liked some parts, hated others.



I don't know where people are seeing Teyla/Carson, but each to their own. I don't think she was talking about Shep ether, for several reasons (which I posted on other threads so I'm not going to do it all over agan, too lazy). That was a very ambiguous scene and probably not about anyone.

I think she was talking about the Marine that she mentioned in M&MM.

i found forever
January 17th, 2007, 08:45 AM
I think she was talking about the Marine that she mentioned in M&MM

Maybe, that's probably the only plausible choice, but dunno lol. I still think it was there just to show Teyla does have a life and does have feelings for the male species and show girl bonding (althought with the *wrong* girl lol), no matter who it is. It was all about a day off anyway.

jannagalaxy
January 17th, 2007, 09:18 AM
i've never cried so much in my life! i don't think i'll be able to watch that episode again!

i thought that character wasn't going to be killed off, i thought that he was going to be sent somewhere else.

i know in sci-fi no one dies, and i hope with all my heart that we'll see the good doctor again.

i'm missing him already.

:(

grasshopper64
January 17th, 2007, 09:32 AM
I really didn't want to like this ep, but it was better than I expected.

So sad, but ironically Carson had some of his best moments in this ep, I thought before he met his fate. His scenes with Elizabeth, asking everyone to go fishing (it would have been nice if we could have had a scene with Rodney and Carson fishing that would've been fun), his scene with Teyla on route to the infirmary.

I thought his death was pointless and the whole exploding tumour felt a bit lame to me.

I wasn't too impressed with Mike, he came across as a bit pushy, but nice to see another side to Elizabeth, she had some nice moments and is a great shame she is being reduced next season. (whatever that means exactly)

I hope they don't go anywhere with Shep/Teyla, I really can't put those two together and prefer not to see any shipping onscreen anyway.
I did like the scenes with McKay and Katie Brown, it was nice but subtle enough. Was also nice to see Zelenka and Lorne getting some screentime.

I initially thought they were trying to imply that Carson had ascended, but I really don't think that's the case.

I'm not sure we will see Carson again and if we do, I'm not sure they'll do it justice, it'll be like some Ripple Effect type AU thing.

prion
January 17th, 2007, 09:33 AM
Ok, I'm only at the 12:29 mark, but doesn't Carson seem to be a bit... gay? >_>' As in stereotypically gay. So far he's had some kind of heart-to-heart talk with Elizabeth where he was being a busy-body and trying to push her into a date (the gay best friend thing), then there's a little quasi-effette scene where he ends a sentence by snapping his fingers and saying "Thaaank you!" o_O

And for the slashers, there's the going out on a one-on-one with Rodney to "fish" :P. I can only imagine what the McBeckett slashers will turn that into.

Let's not mention the fact that Rodney never thought of going on a "date" with Katie on his day off 'til he needed an excuse to get out of fishing despite "having made an effort to make time for Katie in recent times".

Also: Some lives are worth more than others? I love Carson, I really do, but did they have to send him back by Stargate even though their ZPMs are limited (3 at the moment but why use up more than you have to?). This is the first and only time I've ever seen them send someone back by Stargate.

So is Carson so special he deserves something others don't in death? Is it a senior staff thing? I know that it's a very nice gesture, but when you look at the grand scheme of things, wouldn't Carson want to be treated just like any other person; to be taken back by the Daedalus?

And, well, he certainly didn't Ascend unless they're retconning themselves now. Instead of going all glowy, he faded out. Not something Ascended beings do.

Gay? Cuz he uses way too much hair gel? (which probably ignited the explosion into a fire of unending proportions?) ;) Heck, I haven't seen that in the show, and he was happy to have a day off and go FISHING. Some guys get REALLY intensely happy about sports. Doesn't mean they're gay. Just obsessed ;) Except for Rodney, who said that fishing and listening to Carson go on about his favorite stuff was akin to hell, or words to that effect. Rodney probably would have stuck his finger in a light socket to avoid going fishing. ;)

I suspect all the bodies got sent through the gate, but we just got to see Carson's memorial.

ShadowMaat
January 17th, 2007, 09:59 AM
Poor Teyla was obviously working up to make a move on Beckett, not Shep as many assume. Poor lass held herself together well during the service, though.

Funny, I was thinking the same thing. ;) Poor Teyla. Now she'll have to settle for a lesser man. :P

leelakin
January 17th, 2007, 10:28 AM
I don't know where people are seeing Teyla/Carson, but each to their own. I don't think she was talking about Shep ether, for several reasons (which I posted on other threads so I'm not going to do it all over agan, too lazy). That was a very ambiguous scene and probably not about anyone.

I TOTALLY didn't see Carson/Teyla, either, but...
A friend of mine said that Rachel Luttrell mentions in one of the season 2 commentaries (the episode that Charin dies) that there was a scene where Teyla and Carson KISSED, but it was cut. Can anyone confirm that?

nonniemous
January 17th, 2007, 10:31 AM
Just for the record, my 14 year old son's comments on this episode, since he is near the target demographic at which recent cast changes are most likely aimed :

(First, he tore apart their "science" for the exploding tumors like the proper geek he is.)

"It was an okay episode. But they shouldn't have killed Carson. They need him. There are so many ways to bring 'Kaylee' into this show that are better than that. They didn't need to kill him. They shouldn't be killing off any of the main cast."

(Emphasis his.)

siXbrownSnakes2
January 17th, 2007, 10:39 AM
Obviously people who didn't want Carson to die (pretty much everyone) might have some mixed feelings about the episode. I just watched it today, and didn't feel like reading 17 pages of threads but I bet there are those people who are giving this episode a bad "rating" just because Carson died.

The episode was astonishing. Sure I'd have liked it a lot more if they hadn't killed Carson but there's obviously hope for the future. The episode was so touching in so many ways and I had read the "carson died" spoilers looong before I watched the episode so I was even on the edge of my seat at times.

I also believe it was one of the best ways you can send off someone such as him. I thought Frasier in Season 7 was a bit of a cheap shot, but this? This was the only way you really could send someone off like him without him being fed on by the wraith or falling out off a building or something stupid. He was saving someone's life and was JUST about to succeed in getting away in time.

From the character development to the heavily dramatic scenes to the ending scene with Rodney and Carson's ghost, this episode was great. There aren't many episodes that can get as good as this one because the story just doesn't fit and you can't kill off someone every day. I question TPTB's decision to do this but they did it in the best way possible. If I wanted Carson to die, I would want him to die doing what he does best and in an increadible episode.

Toaster Roaster
January 17th, 2007, 11:48 AM
The guy that took Weir on the lunch date had some serious game. I wish I HAD IT LIKE HIM. I mean he was very talented in the art of courtship.

Carson should have run away after he handed over the bomb. I beleive thier was a corner a few feet away. He was very brave to attempt to save that man. Talk about literally being on the clock.

Another question is should Tela have removes the shrapnel from her side or leave it thier until she got some medical attention. I have heard sometimes it is better to leave it in and sometime its better to take it out.

I think that tumor causing device would be a great weapon. It could be deployed like a anti personel mine. It would "infect" the enemy and then incubate just long enough for the enemey to get back to base then explode. lol It would take forever for the enemy to figure out what was going on.

LadyBozi
January 17th, 2007, 12:13 PM
Sunday--Finally watched it
I LOVED it and HATED it at the same time... ='[ *goes to cry*

Beginning: Was cute! I didn't get the impression that Teyla was crushing on neither Ronon nor Sheppard.....or Carson lol. <3 CArson<3 I felt like it was someone not part of their team. The Marine maybe? For a second I thought it was the same person as Lizzies date! Mike lol speaking of him
Weir's Hottie: HELLO! Cutie! lol. I thought that part was cute..but my brother was like "OMG Boring"When they were eating lunch bro: ok Wraith attack............now! They keep talk Ok..NOW! lol.
He found that part boring..lol.ok..just a lil bit.
I felt SO bad for Carson *crys* He was one my favorites because he was such a pure soul and they had to take him away from us!
Ronon/Sheppard was awesome! like omg awesome!! hehe... alll except one single line..

"I always thought you and Teyla"*Ronon's stupid expression. Sorry to anyone who sees anothers ship..dont get offended.please..
I'm sorry? Are we living in some Bizzare Universe. Anyone who saw Echoes and saw it as shippy can kinda see what Im talking about.I KNOW a lot of you did! Don't be shy. Where the heck did that line come from anyway? Even my brother, who doesn't want them to get together was confused. Ok..random and .....really...weird. I thought it was fine that he said it...but the stupid expression I'm sorry.. but. ok....ok.. no.. whatever.. You WIN. PTB. They are like the best brother and sister duo alive! & Zom-friggin-g they have NEVER exchanged looks that have given hits about their ATTRACTION towards eachother. I'll just ignore it all. You have it! Oh just one more thing... Echoes--Ronon oh-so worried Hovering over Teyla (Sibling like/ Romantic view doesn't matter) ......that NEVErR happen again!? The ARk and now Sunday?! WOW! He goes from being at her side the whole episode to totally "ooh whoops she's hurt" IT makes NO Sense. Sorry I had to add that in. I mean, I understand its hard for the writers to do this. no..wait..wait its not! Can we keep the DEVELOPMENT Constant! oh wasn't Rodney suppost to be a LOT nicer to his team members since Tao!? helloo..Blowing his BEST fRIEnd off is Not nice. Maybe his development can stay constance. Like...your favorite Kirk-sheppard..Im sure we will see plenty of Rodney Sheppard scenes...no more room to actually think about the others.
/RANT lol. man..feels good to get that off my chest.

Over all... 8/10--would have gotten a 10/10 but certain things pissed me off.

*Walks away from Season4* Completely ignoring it. Joins MOB of people ready to write their own AU version of Atlantis Season 4. NO CARTER Needed to hype it u

rejven
January 17th, 2007, 12:29 PM
it seams that in sg is more dangerous to be a doctor in base than on the front lines^^

lord-anubis
January 17th, 2007, 12:30 PM
i dident know carson was going to die im sure some people may of new but i dident. i thought i heard some where that they were not going to kill him off that last part was so sad.

very good ep even thou it was sad i did love how Zelenka said he won some anime dvds he should have named a show it would have been funnyer.

Suzotchka
January 17th, 2007, 12:36 PM
Okay, here's my .02 cents if anyone cares.

I think that all that back story and insights we found out about all the characters could've been spread out over the course of the season instead of having everything in one episode.

Shep and Teyla? Uh, no. Sorry.

Mike whats-his-name? I don't see the appeal. Sorry. But to each their own.

Exploding tumors? ROTFL

And while I did not like Carson dying, I found the speech given by Weir very moving. And I liked the fact that all his friends were pall bearers.

And Shep in his dress blues! WHOA! NICE!

And overall, I was enjoying season 3 up to this point.

Edit: I'd just like to add that since both SG-1 and Atlantis have lost Doctors, are Doctors now considered the 'red shirt' (ala Star Trek)??

Dax
January 17th, 2007, 12:47 PM
Great episode at a greater price. :sigh:Let's hope for some (needed) follow up in upcoming episodes, such as McKay taking a mission off or something of that nature.

10 from me.

FoolishPleasure
January 17th, 2007, 12:53 PM
Okay, here's my .02 cents if anyone cares.

I think that all that back story and insights we found out about all the characters could've been spread out over the course of the season instead of having everything in one episode.

It should have been done back in season 1.


Shep and Teyla? Uh, no. Sorry.

It should be Ronon and Teyla. I saw it way back when Ronon was in Teyla's bedroom watching her do splits on the bed. That's spicy. . .not brotherly. ;)


Mike whats-his-name? I don't see the appeal. Sorry. But to each their own.

He shall be known as "Stalker Dude" from now on (but he is awfully cute). :D


Exploding tumors? ROTFL
Just wait, next week we get the belly-button lint of doom!


And Shep in his dress blues! WHOA! NICE!
Did you notice his tie was a bit crooked? That's the secret signal for the Lemmings Society members. ;)


Edit: I'd just like to add that since both SG-1 and Atlantis have lost Doctors, are Doctors now considered the 'red shirt' (ala Star Trek)??
Frasier and Beckett were obviously ill-informed on what was expected of them.

*runs*

bluealien
January 17th, 2007, 01:02 PM
Excellent episode - fantastic characterization and yet heartwrenching at the same time. Carson was wonderful and his attempts to get anyone to go fishing with him and being turned down were so sad.


Loved all the moments between the characters - Shep/Ronan scenes rocked. I really hope we get to see more of these scenes in season four. The Game was hilarious and John really got whumped by Ronan. Their scenes later gave us more tidbits about their past lives and their feelings than most one character centric episodes. Very well done - Shep denying he liked anyone on Atlantis but then his reaction to Teyla being injured pretty much answered Ronans question about Teyla and John liking each other. I mean John had just told Ronan that he, Teyla and Ronon hung out together ALL the time- so not much of an opportunity for Teyla to be seeing anyone else.

The back and forth between the characters and the different time zones was a bit jarring at first but then it all seemed to fall into place. Carsons death was still a shock eventhough I was expecting it and the reaction of everyone afterwards was heartbreaking - Rodneys guilt , Ronans quiet acceptance - John telling Teyla that it hadnt hit him yet and her feelings of incredible sadness. I love how John and Teyla seem to be there for each other even if they don't ever admit their feelings for one another. There is always a genuine caring and connection between them that the writers have built on this so wonderufully this season. I hope to see this connection continue to grow in season four.

The funeral service was really powerfull and everyones's expressions just summed up how devastated they were. Carrying the coffin through the gate was probably the saddest scene we have seen in Atlantis so far. Very touching moment with Rodney and Carson at the end - really a beautiful episode - one I will watch over and over though I still cannot imagine Atlantis without Carson.


Only my second ever - 10/10

sueKay
January 17th, 2007, 01:05 PM
Carrying the coffin through the gate is the saddest scene in Stargate History. Not just Atlantis

Orovingwen
January 17th, 2007, 01:10 PM
A really good episode, I was (positive) surprised.
A lot of great scenes. Lorne can paint! AFAIK Kavan Smith said it in an interview that he wants Lorne to be a painter. And OMG he is so right when he says that even if it looks finished it isn't I notice it everytime when my flatmate paint her pictures, I think it looks great and she does it over and over again and it really looks better then. And he got a great spot there oh yes,.
Rodney&Kate ooh so sweet, Rodney really approved and Weir and her "lover". they are so cute, HE is so cute! I want them together, pleeeeeease. She needs someone to lean on and hey she wants it too c'mon lizzy give in.. and next time bring dessert ? I mean she actually reacted like I thought she would: no relationship with a colleague she ahs responsibility for.. but then.. hey she likes it she knwo she does^^
Besides can we please see more of these yummy guys around Atlantis?

uuh and whom does Teyla fancy? it is so nice to see her with non-athosian friend :) But I think it isn't Ronan she fancie (at least in thie episode it doesn't seem so) because it was like she got an glimps on him in the mess and then left but Ronon wasn't there. So maybe the Marine Sheppard mentioned in McKay&Mrs.Miller.

And now we know that Shepaprd was married but damn I couldn't hear the music that good, would like to now which song that was^^

And of course radek, he was so cool withhis chess! And his partner there seem to be a nice guy to hang aroudn with. Hey somehow I got the feeling we need more "second row" people or "third row" And hey so they can blow them off when they feel like killing someone to get tension :aaaa:

Also liked the "parted story" that you switch the perspective btu I'm not quite sure if I wouldn't have want it to go a certain point everytime. Like just seeing the coffin (without the flag) and then start the say with the perspective of teyla how she gots there and then switch to Lorne and show his day tehn radek and so on. It's something I've seen before and I liked that kind of story telling. But with this pieces it was also good. Just one or two scenes tehy showed twice I think they eiterh should have skipped them or show it from a diffrent direction (to keep it interesting).

After a bit time has passed I kinda can accept the death of Carson. Not because I didn't liek him, no I LOVE HIM but of how it was done.
It wasn't atime when you could have said that "not thet he gots intersting.." in my opinion the writers didn't know what to do with him, not nice to kill teh charcter because you made mistake and can't fix it but it kinda makes it better then to see him "die" oncreen like O'Neill. (in the meaning of shrinking to a one dimensional charcter or persiflage)
It's actually also something for the story, it gives the show a bit more reality, becuase there was no big battle no stupid sacrefice only a consequenece of playing with something you don't understand/know. That is what the 'lantiens do all the time and it normally went well so one times it doesn't and we actually see it. Besides it wasn't "the main plot" here, it was only a setting and that makes it - for me - better. YOu see the chacters and how they (re)act to it.
It wasn't an useless death just like "we had to sacrefice someone" (like Grodin) and bulind up a stupid death scenario written in probably 5 minutes but a beliveable situation. Carson act in the way we actually love him for, he thinks about his patience. He wnated to save him and afterwards he brought the tumor away from his patient and assistant. It would have gone off anyway but so he saved those two people.
I'm just dissapointed liek always that they just say godobye to Carson and not the the marine and the other 3 people. Just a half of a sentence. And then this wink to the fans "no we haven't killed him off, he will be back" just to make good weather :rolleyes: *look around* doesn't really work.

What I hope for the next episodes is that this changes the characters in a way it makes it more interesting. After the death of other people here and in SG-1 it mostly was the same. And I just think this could be used for a good change. On the expedition everybody knew him and his job leaves a whole.

Anyway, really really sad he is gone and i'm quite sad as well but I should get used to it that TPTB only kill my fave characters *lol* (couldn't they kill Ford and make Carson a Wraith :P)

5***** out of 6******

KezatheAscended
January 17th, 2007, 01:20 PM
This is probably one of the best SGA epis that I have seen...I really want to say I hate it, but I just can't. I think of all the ways for a character like Carson to die, that was the best way. I hate the few seconds that the creators give us, thinking that everything is going to be okay...and then disaster hits. They did it for 4 seasons on Farscape. Nothing was okay until the end...and it is the same feeling here when he hands it off to the guy. I finally let myself breath thinking that it was over...but of course it wasn't.

I did really like the last scene though...with McKay, even though I cried.

And it was kinda strange seeing John and Lorne in blues...and was Ronon wearing a suit? I couldn't really tell. The funeral scene was a good one too.

And I love the idea that Lorne could paint...anyway...very good, and very sad epi...I'll be sad for the rest of the season...and the rest of the show...It will be wierd not seeing Carson around...luv ya Carson...:beckett: :beckett: :beckett: :beckett:

fuchsia
January 17th, 2007, 01:28 PM
Liked the episode but DID NOT like that slimy whats-is-name that was sucking up to Elizabeth...
Just some random lounge-lizard with a face you want to slap.
I always thought John and Liz should get together but I found him really superficial in this ep. Mentioning a failed marriage like it was nothing to him. I now hold out hopes that Liz and Rodney will find each other, and slimy- Mike, was it?- will disappear, not necessarily in that order.

Alipeeps
January 17th, 2007, 01:37 PM
Another question is should Tela have removes the shrapnel from her side or leave it thier until she got some medical attention. I have heard sometimes it is better to leave it in and sometime its better to take it out.


General rule of thumb - *never* remove a foreign-object from a penetrating injury. You could do untold damage.

Chailyn
January 17th, 2007, 01:42 PM
Well, I bit the bullet. I'm not sure how I feel yet. There were things I loved and things I hated.

The Good (because there is always good)

1. I liked the easy way Teyla and Weir interacted at the beginning and the way Weir moved closer to Teyla during the memorial. I've been waiting forever to see that easy sort of friendship between them, but, at the same time, it also felt weird because it was so out-of-the-blue. I wish we'd seen this eariler.

2. Ronon and Shep were awesome. Jason does great stuff with the little he's given. And, no, I didn't see any shippyness in their talk. Shep even admits that there's no one on Atlantis he thinks of like that. When Ronon asks about Teyla, Shep is clearly surprised. But, then again, I'm a non-shipper, so I'm not looking for these things. (Then again, if Ronon's comment starts Sheppard thinking, then I guess the Sheylas will be beholden to him) :)

3. I liked Teyla. I'm actually shocked. I liked the way RL played her, putting more emphasis and emotion in her face instead of being so bland. She seemed lighter and friendlier. I also liked the easy way she handled Ronon and Shep when Shep tried roping her into golf. It seemed like she was dealing with her little brothers and no, she can't play with them now. :)

4. I liked the way all the characters interacted with the cameos. Again, I wish we had seen this in seasons 1 & 2. I really liked seeing Carson's staff and hope they don't drop off the edge of the earth.

5. Carson rocked it. "You smell nice." "Shut up." :)

The Bad

1. Exploding tumors. Come on. I was hoping to continue the Carson-Michael arc. The only thing this plot device really did was to show how warped the Ancients were getting, which we kind of already knew. Blowing people up with tumors? Even the Wraith will kill you face-to-face. The Ancients are looking more cowardly as the show progresses.

2. Carson's death. Still think this was one mother of a mistake.

3. Even though all the "who do you like?" and "will so and so ask me out?" was cute, I thought it was silly that everyone had their own mini soap operas. A little bit would have been fine, but this isn't Atlantis: 90210. ;)

4. Katie Brown. I just don't like her and I don't understand Rodney's interest at all. And..they've been dating for a year? Why haven't we seen this? She comes off as a little weak, too weak to handle Rodney's personality. Although I loved the "I would love to get married...just not to you." Foot meet mouth. :p

Things I'm unsure of

1. Lorne being a painter. Ah, I'll have to think on this.

2. Weir's speech. I don't think it was that strong, which is a shame. The playing of the bagpipes made more of a statement, imo.

3. Ghost!Carson. Although, the scene with Rodney pulled at the heart strings, it kind of pulled me out of it too. I would have liked to have seen Rodney's or even Sheppard's reaction without a ghost to talk to. Sheppard's most of all. He barely reacted. He's so team-oriented and "we never leave our man behind" that I really wanted to see how he would react in private to Carson's death.

All that said, if they're not bringing back, cloning, or whatever to Carson then they better not hit the reset button. I want to see the team affected by Carson's death beyond this one episode. If he's not coming back, then he should not be forgotten. :(

ShadowMaat
January 17th, 2007, 01:48 PM
I missed a slurry of posts in the middle of this thread. Can someone remind me who Dr. Biro is? When Carson said her name I was like, "AHA!" but I can't recall details of her previous appearance. A name like that kinda sticks, though. ;)

I'll second the "don't remove shrapnel" bit. You never know- it could be acting as a tourniquet for a severed artery. Pull it out and you could be gushing all over the place.

And of course there was that one ep of Homicide where the person was cut in two by the subway car but was still alive until they moved it. *shudder*

Pegasus_SGA
January 17th, 2007, 01:48 PM
It should have been done back in season 1.



It should be Ronon and Teyla. I saw it way back when Ronon was in Teyla's bedroom watching her do splits on the bed. That's spicy. . .not brotherly. ;)



He shall be known as "Stalker Dude" from now on (but he is awfully cute). :D


Just wait, next week we get the belly-button lint of doom!


Did you notice his tie was a bit crooked? That's the secret signal for the Lemmings Society members. ;)


Frasier and Beckett were obviously ill-informed on what was expected of them.

*runs*
ROFLMAO, wish I could green you for that *g* Darn spreading of reputation...

ShadowMaat
January 17th, 2007, 01:52 PM
Oh yeah, that reminds me- I loved how Ronon glared daggers at Teyla for bailing on him and the golf lessons. Muahaha. Subtle but effective. :D

lexlooper
January 17th, 2007, 02:16 PM
I can't believe that they killed off one of the best actors of the show! What a shocker! Who's next? :confused:

Maekas
January 17th, 2007, 02:18 PM
This is an episode that I doubt I can ever watch again. Don't get me wrong, it was an amazing episode, however, I hate sad endings and I hate sadness in general.
This was even worse than Heroes as I could watch that episode again. God, why do they have to kill off the doctors...

I'm angry now :mad:

Suzotchka
January 17th, 2007, 02:20 PM
I can't believe that they killed off one of the best actors of the show! What a shocker! Who's next? :confused:

Take a look at my sig if you really want to know.

Chailyn
January 17th, 2007, 02:21 PM
I missed a slurry of posts in the middle of this thread. Can someone remind me who Dr. Biro is? When Carson said her name I was like, "AHA!" but I can't recall details of her previous appearance. A name like that kinda sticks, though. ;)

I think she was the doc from Hotzone that was cutting people's heads open, talking about how 'fascinating' it was after they died. Carson scolded her.


And of course there was that one ep of Homicide where the person was cut in two by the subway car but was still alive until they moved it. *shudder*

I still remember that episode. Easily, one of the most gripping hours of TV ever.

atlantis_babe34
January 17th, 2007, 02:25 PM
Oh i finally watched the episode last night/morning. but staying up late was so worth it!


Wow! What an episode!

Pros:

Teyla having a Buddie from earth rather then one of her own poeple
Mike. Is HOT!.. and has the best pick up line;).. comparing himself to a wall!. *sigh in dreamland*. look out Sheppy u have some competition!
Teyla and the uttermost glee on her face when Lizzy Cancelles their lunch and realizes that she is going on a date.
Carson Teaseing Elizabeth "have you got a hot date?" "who Told You that?!"... "you smell nice" "Shuuut uppppp!":D. Great!
Lizzy Likeing "When Harry Met Sally":D its a sign i tell ya!
John Teaching Ronan How to play golf:P *WACK!* One handed! Classic!:D
The Balcony scene with lizzy and Mikey
Ronan beating the crap outa John in his game "on one leg" Lol! and then ofcourse...
Ronan smashing a beer can on his head lol
Rodney Yelling at his Junior scientists
Rodney "hmm"ing when he see's Lizzy and Mikey having Lunch. and...
Rodney "plant siting" with Katie...Canon yay!:D
Lorne painting
Radek kicking everyones ass at chess hehe
The look on Carsons face when he walked out of Dr Biro's room ahahaha!
Some hugs For Carson
Carson's Memorial was beautiful. turned the water works on then *wipes eyes*
The final Scene between Rodney and Carson was special and beautiful... and the last pro was
To See Carson One more Time:)

Cons

That no one would go fishing with carson
Bombs Exploding
Carson's Passing:(


Ah in otherwords... the episode i ahd been witing for!:D aprt for the sad bits:(

9/10:D

P/S... I Miss Carson:(

caty
January 17th, 2007, 02:25 PM
I think she was the doc from Hotzone that was cutting people's heads open, talking about how 'fascinating' it was after they died. Carson scolded her.


Wasn't she also the one that was at the conference in 'Conversion' about the retrovirus in Shep's system? She did have short hair back then, so I'm not positive...

obsessed1
January 17th, 2007, 02:30 PM
ROFLMAO, wish I could green you for that *g* Darn spreading of reputation...
I agree hilarious

lemming 85 :D

MrLIK
January 17th, 2007, 02:34 PM
And Beckett being a ghost, maybe he ascended. :)


Maybe he'll be returning more or less in spirit, that is, as some kind of a ghost in need, or something? Great episode. I found tears in my eyes at the end...

kirmit
January 17th, 2007, 02:34 PM
I thought this episode was alright, was good to see the main team had friends besides the ones in sheppards crew. However I have to say I thought Carsons death was lame, (the part about his putting his life on the line to save that guy was good) not the fact it was because of an exploding tumour but just the way it was done, he's there and then he's gone in a puff of smoke (no pun intended). The memorial service was quite touching, though I have to say besides Weir everyone was too stone faced for my liking, as if they were trying to hold up this tough guy image. The thing I love about SG-1 characters is that they really look upset and have tears in their eyes and everything, they let it all show. Even Rodney bowing his head down and you see the drip of a single tear would've been better that the just glum face he gave, he was afterall his best friend. I didn't really dig the 'ghost' part either, it worked with daniel and Jack in 'Meridian' because daniel was actually talking to jack through some kind of psychic connection but with Rodney it seemed a little soap opera-ish even though it did still make me sad :P.

All in all it was an alright episode but I think Carson should've gotten a better death and I would've liked to of seen more emotion from the characters.

Haliyah
January 17th, 2007, 02:35 PM
I just watched it...and CRIED. I was seriously sobbing into my blanket. It was a terrible way for Carson to go - I mean, radioactive exploding space tumours! - but I suppose he was saving someone, which he'd've been happy about. I, personally, would've liked to see him go down saving people he didn't neccessarily need to save, like a village under attack or something. It would have been much more heroic, and it'd've given him a chance to say goodbye.

...Besides, what're they going to do about his absence? That's a huuuuuuge void to fill, and the base'll probably resent the new CMO because they'll be "replacing" Carson.

Aside from that...I'm going to criticize the piper. I am a piper, and I can play Dark Isle better than that. Much better. Without all the novice-y chanter squawking, badly fluctuating note tones and less-than-perfectly-tuned drones. Like, sure, maybe he was nervous, but really. Has no one heard of dubbing?

Lt. Colonel Ryu Gaia
January 17th, 2007, 03:14 PM
Well, that was sad.

I wish it was Teyla and not Carson, though.

Ebinia
January 17th, 2007, 03:25 PM
I find it is difficult to separate the sadness of what happened from whether it was actually a good episode or not. I certainly enjoyed the first half, I thought Elizabeth was very sweet on her date and it was excellent to see her more relaxed and not in work mode. The scenes with John and Ronon playing golf and stick fighting had me really laughing. After these parts however it became obvious that something bad was going to happen to Carson so I spent the second half watching in anxiety and not enjoying myself as much. I’m not entirely sure what his death bought to the story as it seemed entirely unnecessary to kill him to prove his status as a hero. I felt pretty sad for him about the fishing trip but I guess it was mainly a plot devise to allow him a scene with everyone before popping his clogs.

As for all the friendship/relationship stuff, I got the distinct impression they were trying to kill everything but Rodney/Katie off. As a Sparky shipper however I still saw plenty of hope (JF and TH have fantastic screen chemistry and can’t seem to help themselves even when they try) but I know my interpretations of certain scenes are seen through shipper goggles and the Sheyla fans have just as much left to go on too (although I’d say it’s definitely an assumption that the crush she’s talking about is John). I’d say the only ship that’s now truly dead is McKay/Beckett. *sads*.

Overall I liked the friendship scenes between Elizabeth and Teyla, and John and Ronon the best.

monkey_man132
January 17th, 2007, 03:40 PM
I don't really miss Carson. What bothers me more is how he died, eventually the writers will run out of secret labs that kill people for turning stuff off. They should have killed him off like they did to Dr Frasier, in battle helping someone.Beckett made the show awkward somehow, IMO, just like Wier does. Also i hate the whole Everyone in Atlantis Having a Radio-Thing.They should install red phones like in the SGC in earlier seasons.::hammondanime03:

R.I.P. :beckettanime09:

PS: They should really think about making a golf course on mainland.:ronananime17::sheppard:

LoveConquers
January 17th, 2007, 03:52 PM
Another question is should Tela have removes the shrapnel from her side or leave it thier until she got some medical attention. I have heard sometimes it is better to leave it in and sometime its better to take it out.




Oh, that's a big no-no. You never remove any impaling device in the field. You leave it and wrap around it until the doctor can remove appropriately. In the one shot, you can see this is exactly what they did.

LoveConquers
January 17th, 2007, 03:58 PM
General rule of thumb - *never* remove a foreign-object from a penetrating injury. You could do untold damage.

Oh sorry, Ali, just saw now that you already responded to that one! Thanks!

Quinn Mallory
January 17th, 2007, 04:19 PM
Quite a sad episode just like everyone said. I liked everything else in the episode other than that bit right before the end. Hopefully, we'll see or get update on Dr. Watson and a great achievement in a future episode.

I think TPTB probably think that people identifies more with the kind doctors than the military in terms of killing off a character for effect.

As much as I would like to see Beckett again in the future and with the kind of relationship that he has with TPTB maybe we'll see an alternate universe Beckett? I'm in some way relieved that he didn't ascend.

kymeric
January 17th, 2007, 04:43 PM
What a CHEAP shot. The episode was filler fluff--oh, and by the way, we KILLED CARSON! OMG!!! WOES!!! LOOKIT everyone crying!!! Look at Rodney emote!!! SHEP almost CRIED!!!! OMG!!! WOES!!!! There was no plot, nothing going on, no building tension. And they left TEN minutes at the end for the poor, sad woebegone faces of the remaining cast.

Radioactive Tumors??? My gods, couldn't you come up with anything better than that?

How stupid and pointless can you get? Actually, pretty stupid and pointless, as this episode proves.



I am furious that they not only killed Carson, they wrote such an absolutely sh***y send off for him. DH and JF hinted at it, but man alive, was that a pointless, POINTLESS episode--and an absolute travesty and a waste. All it was was an excuse to yank the fans around and see how many they could make cry.

Heroes, Redux. Nothing original about this one and just as stupid and pointless as Janet's death was--maybe moresoe, because we didn't even get a Fluffy patriotic video out of it.

1/10

I recommend you stop watching stargate... it seems to be only causing you stress and torment. I bet theres a rerun of golden girls on somewhere, no one ever dies on that show. Might be better.

Scarym1
January 17th, 2007, 04:45 PM
Oh my that such an awesome ep. It so sad. I had tears rolling down my cheeks. It was beautifully written and acted. The last scene with them walking thru the gate with the casket just floored me. :sheppardanime32: It was great to see McKay talk about how much he valued Beckett as a friend. I am still in shock.

Alipeeps
January 17th, 2007, 05:02 PM
I missed a slurry of posts in the middle of this thread. Can someone remind me who Dr. Biro is? When Carson said her name I was like, "AHA!" but I can't recall details of her previous appearance. A name like that kinda sticks, though. ;)

I'll second the "don't remove shrapnel" bit. You never know- it could be acting as a tourniquet for a severed artery. Pull it out and you could be gushing all over the place.

And of course there was that one ep of Homicide where the person was cut in two by the subway car but was still alive until they moved it. *shudder*

Ack! Never saw that ep! Sounds horrid! :S Removing any penetrating object is likely to merely increase the bleeding - there's a high risk that the object itself is forming a tamponade and slowing blood loss.. remove it and you could end up with a gusher on your hands. Not nice. Not at all. I'll bet Ronon got a good telling off from Carson (*sob*) for his antics with the arrow in Condemned.


Wasn't she also the one that was at the conference in 'Conversion' about the retrovirus in Shep's system? She did have short hair back then, so I'm not positive...

Yup. Dr Biro is the pathologist and performed the autopsies on the nanovirus victims in Hot Zone and was also involved in the conference brainstorming for a cure for the retrovirus in Conversion.


The memorial service was quite touching, though I have to say besides Weir everyone was too stone faced for my liking, as if they were trying to hold up this tough guy image. The thing I love about SG-1 characters is that they really look upset and have tears in their eyes and everything, they let it all show. Even Rodney bowing his head down and you see the drip of a single tear would've been better that the just glum face he gave, he was afterall his best friend.

All in all it was an alright episode but I think Carson should've gotten a better death and I would've liked to of seen more emotion from the characters.

I saw the complete opposite there. I saw a great depth of emotion; I saw people desperately trying to hold it together and not cry. This:

http://i49.photobucket.com/albums/f260/Alipeeps/SGA/Season%203/Sunday/NDVD_1358.jpg

is the face of a man trying his damnedest not to cry.


Oh, that's a big no-no. You never remove any impaling device in the field. You leave it and wrap around it until the doctor can remove appropriately. In the one shot, you can see this is exactly what they did.


Oh sorry, Ali, just saw now that you already responded to that one! Thanks!

No worries. :D Great minds and all that... :D

KerMcG90
January 17th, 2007, 05:19 PM
I just watched it...and CRIED. I was seriously sobbing into my blanket. It was a terrible way for Carson to go - I mean, radioactive exploding space tumours! - but I suppose he was saving someone, which he'd've been happy about. I, personally, would've liked to see him go down saving people he didn't neccessarily need to save, like a village under attack or something. It would have been much more heroic, and it'd've given him a chance to say goodbye.

...Besides, what're they going to do about his absence? That's a huuuuuuge void to fill, and the base'll probably resent the new CMO because they'll be "replacing" Carson.

Aside from that...I'm going to criticize the piper. I am a piper, and I can play Dark Isle better than that. Much better. Without all the novice-y chanter squawking, badly fluctuating note tones and less-than-perfectly-tuned drones. Like, sure, maybe he was nervous, but really. Has no one heard of dubbing?

Oh thank god I wasn't the only one literally sobbing over this episode :P

prion
January 17th, 2007, 05:20 PM
Not even the re-emergence of Shep's underpants cheered me up. :-(

whoa............ that's serious uncheeriness then. :(

Alipeeps
January 17th, 2007, 05:22 PM
Oh thank god I wasn't the only one literally sobbing over this episode :P

Not by a long way. I cried my eyes out. I had to pause the vid twice cos i was crying so much I couldn't see!

Thank god I was alone at the time... :o

Anjirika
January 17th, 2007, 05:22 PM
Alright, so I've actually seen the episode now...

...I will say this for it. I loved it up until the whole 'I've made the hand off' if the episode had had a happy ending after that I would have given it a 10/10 but because of that I'm giving it a 0/10.

No character deserves to go in that way, and what makes me really, really, REALLY angry is that Carson should have let the bomb deposer in the room, that would have cut down the time that was wasted by the unlocking of the floor and the time Carson took to meet the guy- to me, it doesn't make sense.

0/10


0/10

And try as they might (TPTB) to kill Sparky, I still saw it. Teyla was talking about someone else (perhpas the marine), John was concerned for her because her injury, Elizabeth was forced into the date with Mike Branton and at the end when Elizabeth was giving the Eulegy, in the pauses she looked to John for support.....I still see Sparky, I still do.

Edit it to add: When Carson started operating, the tears started, and by the end I could hardly breathe..... so, if one were to rate the episode based on tears, it would be very high, but based on reason and truth to character...still a ZERO

prion
January 17th, 2007, 05:24 PM
I think TPTB probably think that people identifies more with the kind doctors than the military in terms of killing off a character for effect.



I think that being the kindly doctor in Stargate is like wearing a t-shirt that says "kill me." First Janet, now Beckett.

prion
January 17th, 2007, 05:29 PM
Ack! Never saw that ep! Sounds horrid! :S Removing any penetrating object is likely to merely increase the bleeding - there's a high risk that the object itself is forming a tamponade and slowing blood loss.. remove it and you could end up with a gusher on your hands. Not nice. Not at all. I'll bet Ronon got a good telling off from Carson (*sob*) for his antics with the arrow in Condemned.

Yeah, you don't remove penetrating objects unless you're at risk of death (like harpooned to a big whale). Now that a family member has become an EMT, he'llwalk in the room, see what i'm watching and I suddenly hear "blunt force trauma" "tension pneumothorax" or "my god they don't know what they're doing." :)


someone
I saw the complete opposite there. I saw a great depth of emotion; I saw people desperately trying to hold it together and not cry. This:

http://i49.photobucket.com/albums/f260/Alipeeps/SGA/Season%203/Sunday/NDVD_1358.jpg

is the face of a man trying his damnedest not to cry.


Oh yes, the expressions on Rodney and Sheppard said a LOT. Shep is not the kind of guy to do public displays of crying, as we all know he tends to hold that stuff in, but you can see it's affected him, and Rodney's face was just sheer depression all the way around. He's lost a very, very good friend.

TJuk
January 17th, 2007, 05:31 PM
I didn't feel like this episode was about Carson, he didn't heavily feature he just kept popping up enough to make sure his death wasn't some random event. The last part of the episode yes, but was this a 'Carson-centric' episode? No! It focused on the various characters and some developments for them (and admittedly some golden moments!) and to serve as a reminder they were all friends with Carson so they could have their teary eyed dramatic moment at the end. I thought to some extent his storyline was added to pad the episode out to make 45 mins and his death was a cruel after thought.

I think 'Sunday' had some truely excellent moments of drama, but that was pretty much down to the acting. You could SEE all the cast were upset and shocked Paul was going and the man was at his dramatic best. I found his and David's scene at the end both touching and emotional (had me bawling), but also a little grating. McKay's already stated in previous episodes SHEPPARD is his best friend. That I can beleive. If they'd built it up or shown Rodney and Carson's friendship more over the past season, I MIGHT have believed that. He is certainly a close friend, but best? Nope. That line was simply to justify the scene and while it was very moving and both actors excelled themselves it left a bad after taste . It was CLEARLY written for McKay, not Carson, to show that Rodney cares. We already knew McKay cares, thats why we love him...for the venerability hidden behind a mask of uber-ego, snarkasm and general *****iness.

Carson fans have been moaning (and rightly so) about his under-use and we've ALL wanted character development which we FINALLY got, but his death was almost a 'be careful what you wish for' warning. It DID NOT suit the ep or do the character justice mainly because there was no need for it. In a world where we are at war in Iraq and Afghanistan and more, we do not need to be reminded people die in real life, we live it everyday. We loose friends and loved ones everyday to disease, murder, accidents and old age. Mothers, fathers, sisters and brothers of soliders live with that fear everyday. Fantasy is supposed to be about escapism and realism and drama can be written and done well WITHOUT the death of a beloved MAIN character. IMO so soon into a series, loosing main cast like this is just a waste.

Personally, in the end I just felt disappointed for Paul, for his fans...and very VERY cheated.

prion
January 17th, 2007, 05:39 PM
Yeah, if you watch it again and assume Teyla was talking about Carson it totally fits.

Oh good grief, I hadn't thought of that. Yes, if you go through everybody Carson talked to and she's always seemed to like him.... oh man, no wonder she was so down at the end (well, who wouldn't be?)

I only hope and pray that Carson is not totally forgotten in the rest of season 3.

nonniemous
January 17th, 2007, 05:40 PM
I didn't feel like this episode was about Carson, he didn't heavily feature he just kept popping up enough to make sure his death wasn't some random event. The last part of the episode yes, but was this a 'Carson-centric' episode? No! It focused on the various characters and some developments for them (and admittedly some golden moments!) and to serve as a reminder they were all friends with Carson so they could have their teary eyed dramatic moment at the end. I thought to some extent his storyline was added to pad the episode out to make 45 mins and his death was a cruel after thought.

EXACTLY!

If it had been Rodney who was going to die? Wait...we got that episode. It was called The Tao of Rodney. But for Carson, a *main* character, credited as *regular* cast, equal to DH?

We get this travesty instead.

It's called "bait and switch" folks, the way TPTB sang Paul's praises to the high heavens in season 1, then failed to give him much at all to do in the next two seasons, only to kill him off in this off-handed, "gee, golly, look how awful life can be" fashion.

I know there were some lovely tidbits in this episode. I know it packed an emotional wallop. But NONE Of it, none of it was worth the cost to the show or the fandom. Even if (when!) they bring Paul back, it won't change the fact that they killed him first.

watcher652
January 17th, 2007, 05:45 PM
More thoughts. Because I can't stop thinking about this episode!

1. Despite what people are wishing for, Carson didn't ascend. You just don't do that on your own. That scene at the end with Rodney talking to Carson was just a visual representation of what Rodney was going thru in his mind.

That's not to say Paul McGillion can't come back in some fashion. Alternate time line Carson, time travel Carson, shape shifter morphing into Carson ("your memory of this being is strong"), Asuran Carson, Replicator Carson (which is pretty much the same as an Asuran). But, this Carson, OUR Carson, with these people and these memories and interactions, is dead.

2. How many people are they going to get to replace Carson? The man was a doctor, a surgeon and a geneticist. Seems like that's a pretty unique set of talents. We know that in the coming episodes/season

Spoiler if you don't know about the new doctor
Jewel Staite is the new doctor. That's already been published. In real life, Jewel is in her mid twenties. They could have her play older, but they can't stretch that too much. I find it really, really hard to imagine her as a full fledged doctor, even a Doogie Howser doctor, plus a surgeon and a geneticist. It was pushing the credibility boundaries with Carson, and he was in his late thirties.
Spoiler if you haven't seen David Hewlett's MGM interview
David Hewlett said in his MGM interview talking about Jewel's role: "I have no idea what she actually does on the show because I haven't actually worked with her. So far, she’s been rescuing other people, other than me. McKay hasn’t gotten hurt enough. I gotta make sure McKay gets hurt badly so I get to spend some serious quality time with Jewel Staite.” They haven't started season 4 yet, so if what he says is true, that means she appears in at least one of the remaining season 3 episodes. I guessing at least the last episode.
3. There was a total waste of some very good story telling to discuss the moral implications of the genetics work Carson was doing and the conflict he might have had with his medical oath. Now the writers can just ignore that. Or, if they have 2 people to do the work Carson did, they can have the doctor yell at the geneticist instead of the harder writing of the inner conflict Carson would have to deal with.

4. I feel that a lot of Rodney's change in personality over the years was due to his hanging around Carson. As Rodney said, Carson was the closest thing to a best friend Rodney ever had. And hanging around Carson made Rodney a better person emotionally. Carson was a caring person with a ready warm smile for everyone. Carson was the kind of person who didn't mind giving a hug or holding a hand. He was the one who fixed up Rodney when he was hurt.

Sheppard is Rodney's buddy. They play sim games against each other. Sheppard is challenge to Rodney in chess. Sheppard is Rodney's team leader and protects Rodney on missions. Sheppard is a guy's guy who's handsome and brave and gets the girls and has a hard time talking about all that emotional stuff.

Carson and Sheppard are both Rodney's friend, but for different reasons. The way Rodney snarked at Carson was different from the way he snarks with Sheppard. Rodney and Carson were the two civilian science guys.

5. I think Katie is a good match for Rodney. She's in a field that Rodney wouldn't feel he had to compete with her, subconsciously or not. She has that caring side that balances Rodney defensive abrasiveness. It made me sad that Rodney didn't understand why Katie would like him, or would continue to like him after she got to know him better. Good for her in saying, "Rodney, I think I know you pretty well. There's not a lot of subtext with you." She knows how Rodney is, and she still likes him.

6. Were they trying to lead us on when

Dr. Houston: (to Teyla) But I wouldn't be surprised if he was oblivious to the whole situation.

And later,

Ronon: (to John) I always thought you and Teyla would, you know...
John: Really?
Ronon: Yeah, why not?
John: Hmm...

7. Anything the Ancients left behind in Atlantis must be really, really bad or really, really broken. They knew they were leaving. they packed up all the good stuff and took it with them.

8. I wonder if either Dr. Houston or Dr. Watson had the gene and that's how the machine got turned on? It would make sense to have a team have a person with the gene on it, if possible.

9. McKay's explanation of the explosive tumor had irriadiated particles that have been genetically programmed (what, no nanites?) to collect trace elements from the host's body. Did Dr. Houston explode first because she was practicing stick fighting with Teyla and her blood was flowing faster while Dr. Watson was golfing? Yeah, I'm trying to make sense of medical technobabble.

10. If the tumor was behind the lungs, shouldn't Carson had to open Dr. Watson from behind or could he just work around them from the front? Dr. Watson did complain about a pain and indicated his chest.

11. We lost the person that was probably the foremost authority (in both Galaxies) on the Wraith gene and the Ancient gene.

12. I'm sure there's someone that likes Dr. Biro, but if Carson didn't want to take her fishing... Well, she seemed like a real talker and maybe Carson wasn't in the mood for that. Maybe he wanted to do the talking for once and have someone listen to him.

Shipperahoy
January 17th, 2007, 05:50 PM
I have to give some major props to Martin Gero. This was a truly excellent episode IMO. If Carson had to go then what an excellent send off. Not to mention that this is the first episode I can think of that really showed McKay having some true depth. Not to mention that despite the fact that the whole team was never together until the very end this really was an excellent team episode. In one episode they've managed to convey a more real sense of friendship and caring then in all of the other episodes combined. All in all I think this episode did a lot to flesh out the characters and to establish a real sense of danger on Atlantis.

kymeric
January 17th, 2007, 05:56 PM
I too felt that it was stupid of Carson to be the one to deliver the tumor (and for the nurse for letting him do it) as he's the chief of staff and obviously the most qualified medical staff member on the expedition.

It's like having John go off and deliver it with a random grunt standing around.

It was obviously a cheap cop-out, used to make his death "heroic". Equally as stupid as Janet suddenly going off world to save one soldier in an on-going battle.

To be fair Hammond confessed to screwing up by sending her, and ultimately that was what cost him his command at the SGC. It was that that was investigated by woolsey and submitted to Pres Hayes that leg to Weirs tenure at the SGC. Related to Wiers reduced role? Maybe.

Uber
January 17th, 2007, 06:00 PM
It's interesting but so far it's turned out that the episodes that I heard spoilers on and cringed because they sounded cheesy have turned out to be pretty big winners in my book. That was true of Echoes, which I personally think is one of the best episodes of the series to-date, and the same can be said now of Sunday.

Although I found the pacing to be a bit awkward and frustrating at times, it was nice to see the same day from so many different perspectives. I'm not sure what could have been done to tighten the episode to make it run more smoothly...so I'll simply chalk it up to a minor nuisance and move on. ;)

First off, although I am a fan of Weir/Caldwell, I really liked the tall, dark and sexy Mike and I think Liz did too, if that smoky look she gave him after they locked lips was any indication. It was nice seeing her as just Liz, although even here, she felt the burden of leadership on her day off. Or was she just protecting herself from a personal relationship by hiding behind her authority?

Teyla. I liked the banter she had with the red shirt before the big boom. It was nice to see that even though we don't get to see the team interacting with others who aren't among the main core, they clearly do. And who was this clueless guy she's talking about being interested in? If I went by episode cues, I imagine that they're hinting it's Sheppard. But then the same cues could direct you to it being Ronon (my pick for Teyla). I don't imagine they'll make a huge deal out of her feelings though and will more than likely leave little bread crumbs here and there rather than put up big ol' honkin' road signs.

Sheppard and Ronon. I thoroughly enjoyed the interplay between them...Shep trying to introduce Ronon to his sport and Ronon kicking his butt both with his one handed driving skills and his one handed kick-Shep's-butt skills. Their personal discussion about love and life gave insight into how both were feeling and hello...Shep was married??!?!? Anyway...from my perspective, I'd like to think that Ronon was asking Shep about Teyla because he is interested in her but is either honestly still hurting too much to pursue anything with her or is hiding behind his fears and avoiding such entanglements.

Major Hottie...err, Lorne. As an artist, let me be the first to say how squee-worthy it is to see someone so delicious be so artistic too.

ZELENKA!!! I love my Radek. How cute was he with his chess tournament??? And did anyone else catch the reference to Dr. Mallozzi? LOL Nice. Reminds me of SG-1's Window of Opportunity, where Jack was reading a book on basic Latin, written by one Dr. Mallozzi. ;)

Meredith. I continue to adore McKay, and seeing him in Sunday certainly didn't change that for me in any way. :) I love how cute he is with the plant lady. ;) Nice nod to the events in Duet and McKay and Mrs. Miller too...showing that he is growing and changing. Frankly the fact that he's involved makes me breathe a little easier about SEASON 4 SPOILERS Sam coming to Atlantis. While I enjoy their banter, I don't want it to become the focal point of the show...and having him with someone in a relationship might serve to preclude this eventuality. Let them banter about not agreeing how to do something...but please let him lighten up slightly on his crush. Just a smidge. :)Still obnoxious and overbearing at times, I was glad that the junior scientists pointed out that he turned something on without knowing what it was just the episode prior in The Ark. Good continuity there.

I cried during the scenes in Carson's room between McKay and Ronon. I was moved not only by Rodney's sense of guilt...the "if only's", but also by Ronon's effort to comfort his friend. Very moving scene and well done by both Jason and David.

Carson. Man that made me so sad. I'm glad I knew he was going to die in this episode or I would have been devastated like I was when Janet Fraiser was killed off in SG-1. The circumstances around the reason for his death were sounder than hers...as in, she very rarely/never went off world but did so in Heroes and was killed by a wayward staff blast whereas he chose to save the life of a patient at great risk to his own life. A risk that sadly he was on the losing side of.

I was a little put off by the notion of exploding tumors...but putting that aside, I was proud of my beloved Carson for putting other people first. He died as he lived...a hero.

A few other irksome things. As hot as Joe looked in his dress blues, his hair really distracted me because it was so wrong there. Especially in dress blues, the hair would have been cut shorter for the special occasion, or tamed a heck of a lot more than it was. It took me out of the moment because, as an Air Force brat, I knew that would never EVER be the case.

Then there was the funeral itself. Why was this one just for Carson? Liz said others had perished, which we knew...so why not memorialize them all at once and send them all through the gate at once? It just seemed odd.

Now I know some people didn't care for the CG for the explosion that killed Beckett or for the "ghost" scene at the end. I didn't mind either of these things because I'd rather focus on the emotional impact of those moments rather than nitpick their presentation. For example, while the CG during the explosion was a little cheesy, it was the moment we lost Carson. And for that, any weight that moment might have been lost due to the CG work was regained from the emotional weight of the event itself. We. Lost. Carson.

As for the "ghost" scene...I saw it here as many others did...as not Carson as a ghost, but rather as McKay trying to free himself from his personal demons. The guilt he felt for putting off the fishing trip with his best friend. The weight in his heart he carried for not cherishing what he and Carson had more. It was McKay coming to terms with losing his best friend in life...and that was a deep and special moment alone for him to come to terms with something so painful.

McKay was right too...things will never be the same without Carson.

Knowing bits and pieces of what's in store for next season, I have hope that while it won't be the same, that doesn't mean it will be worse. Sometimes change is good, and sometimes it isn't. I'll wait and see what the future holds for the show and the team; but one thing's for certain...I truly hope we will see Carson Beckett again.

Haliyah
January 17th, 2007, 06:01 PM
Not by a long way. I cried my eyes out. I had to pause the vid twice cos i was crying so much I couldn't see!

Thank god I was alone at the time... :o


I had to do the same thing.

I'm also glad I was alone.

:sheppardanime32:

ShadowMaat
January 17th, 2007, 06:31 PM
...I would've liked to of seen more emotion from the characters.

I didn't cry (much) at my father's funeral. Doesn't mean I didn't love him, doesn't mean I wasn't ripped to shreds inside; I was trying to hold it together for the rest of my family.

There were a lot of glassy eyes and tight faces at that service. Shep, McKay, Lorne, Teyla... That seemed "right" to me.

I cried watching the ep, but if I'd actually been there it might have been a different story.


ZELENKA!!! I love my Radek. How cute was he with his chess tournament??? And did anyone else catch the reference to Dr. Mallozzi? LOL Nice. Reminds me of SG-1's Window of Opportunity, where Jack was reading a book on basic Latin, written by one Dr. Mallozzi. ;)
Radek was adorable! And I wonder if it was the same Dr. Mallozzi? It would fit, seeing as JM himself has been "transferred" to Atlantis.

Easter Lily
January 17th, 2007, 06:38 PM
I loved this episode... sad as it was...
I'm still tearing from it but I dropped by to say... Martin Gero, the dialogue in this was pure gold.

Every episode should be as well-written as this.

prion
January 17th, 2007, 06:45 PM
The guy that took Weir on the lunch date had some serious game. I wish I HAD IT LIKE HIM. I mean he was very talented in the art of courtship.

Carson should have run away after he handed over the bomb. I beleive thier was a corner a few feet away. He was very brave to attempt to save that man. Talk about literally being on the clock.

Another question is should Tela have removes the shrapnel from her side or leave it thier until she got some medical attention. I have heard sometimes it is better to leave it in and sometime its better to take it out.

I think that tumor causing device would be a great weapon. It could be deployed like a anti personel mine. It would "infect" the enemy and then incubate just long enough for the enemey to get back to base then explode. lol It would take forever for the enemy to figure out what was going on.

If I'd been Carson, I would have run so fast I'd have left skid marks.

You definitely don't take foreign objects out of the torso, especially shrapnel. It was on the left side, - possibly near or in the spleen - you'd have a major exsangination (bleeding) if you pulled it out, plus it would hurt like hell. Yes, if you get run through the torso, the head, etc. leave the object in, call the emergency folk and sit back and wait, unless you're harpooned to a whale, then you've got a circumstance to pull the object out.

Exploding tumors are far-fetched because the damage that Dr. Hewston (first victim) did was extensive and something else very flammable must have been nearby to have caused that fireball, but then the surgically removed tumor also went up in a fireball. Honestly don't think the human body has enough chemicals inside to create that kind of a fireball but this is scifi, must suspend belief, mus suspend belief.

watcher652
January 17th, 2007, 06:45 PM
ZELENKA!!! I love my Radek. How cute was he with his chess tournament??? And did anyone else catch the reference to Dr. Mallozzi?
Others have mentioned it.


A few other irksome things. As hot as Joe looked in his dress blues, his hair really distracted me because it was so wrong there. Especially in dress blues, the hair would have been cut shorter for the special occasion, or tamed a heck of a lot more than it was. It took me out of the moment because, as an Air Force brat, I knew that would never EVER be the case.
Aren't you thrown out of the moment every time you see Sheppard? That isn't any kind of regulation haircut. I think the rest of us would be thrown if Sheppard did anything to his hair. He wouldn't be the same guy.


Then there was the funeral itself. Why was this one just for Carson? Liz said others had perished, which we knew...so why not memorialize them all at once and send them all through the gate at once? It just seemed odd.
It was a memorial service, not a funeral. I think all the others had/will have their moments. We just didn't see it. You probably don't attend a memorial service of someone you don't know. Not everyone would know Dr. Houston, the other 2 confirmed dead, the bomb technician, anyone who died later of their injuries from the first explosion.

But Carson's death affected every single member of the expedition. That's not to demean anyone else's life, that's the last thing Carson would want. But everyone knew Carson. He saw you at your worse, when you were hurt or aching. And he made you feel better, not just with medicine, but because he was Carson.

Mitchell82
January 17th, 2007, 06:51 PM
This is the first episode in a long time on either show that has hit me this hard in a long time. Probably since "Heroes". First off at first I found the constant "five hours earlier", "four hours earlier" etc. But upon second viewing I found it very refreshing to see everyones lives and I realized that was the point. To see everyones "day off" and interaction with Carson. I really eliked the creative ancient weapon and a very successfull one if deployed properly. Mabey this is just the military man in me but think about infecting soeone who works at your enimies weapon processing facility and it goes off near lets say a reactor. Nice way to anhilate your enemy. I thought the team interaction was spot on and really hope to se Weirs "boyfriend" again. I wonder how they can bring him back but I can imagine it will be interesting. Very sad to see Carson go but he left very heroically. I thought they did it real well and the funeral was very well done. 10/10

ToasterOnFire
January 17th, 2007, 06:54 PM
Exploding tumors are far-fetched because the damage that Dr. Hewston (first victim) did was extensive and something else very flammable must have been nearby to have caused that fireball, but then the surgically removed tumor also went up in a fireball. Honestly don't think the human body has enough chemicals inside to create that kind of a fireball but this is scifi, must suspend belief, mus suspend belief.
It's all about the sciencewank. :D ;)

Mitchell82
January 17th, 2007, 06:56 PM
Alright, so I've actually seen the episode now...

...I will say this for it. I loved it up until the whole 'I've made the hand off' if the episode had had a happy ending after that I would have given it a 10/10 but because of that I'm giving it a 0/10.

No character deserves to go in that way, and what makes me really, really, REALLY angry is that Carson should have let the bomb deposer in the room, that would have cut down the time that was wasted by the unlocking of the floor and the time Carson took to meet the guy- to me, it doesn't make sense.

0/10


0/10

And try as they might (TPTB) to kill Sparky, I still saw it. Teyla was talking about someone else (perhpas the marine), John was concerned for her because her injury, Elizabeth was forced into the date with Mike Branton and at the end when Elizabeth was giving the Eulegy, in the pauses she looked to John for support.....I still see Sparky, I still do.

Edit it to add: When Carson started operating, the tears started, and by the end I could hardly breathe..... so, if one were to rate the episode based on tears, it would be very high, but based on reason and truth to character...still a ZERO

Well I understand but I disagree. It caught me by complete surprise and I sill feel Carson went out fighting and did the right thing, actually he did the Carson thing IMO. He will be missed vut got a fitting farewell. It was done perfect. I loved John's reaction, corection everyones reaction it was all spot on great job Martin Gero.

O'Neill is funny
January 17th, 2007, 07:11 PM
On second thought i don't get this...

how can the doctor be dead if sunday is when Carson dies yet episodes like the ark he's alive? did they change the episodes around or something? because this makes no sense to me and i'm hoping someone can clear this up. Thanks.

MasterPower
January 17th, 2007, 07:12 PM
I just watched Sunday.

I didn't know that Carson was going to die?! :(

Jenner8675309
January 17th, 2007, 07:12 PM
But Carson's death affected every single member of the expedition. That's not to demean anyone else's life, that's the last thing Carson would want. But everyone knew Carson. He saw you at your worse, when you were hurt or aching. And he made you feel better, not just with medicine, but because he was Carson.

Very well put. Such a shame to see such a wonderful character go, no matter what justification is used. While I have never believed death is neccessary to keep a show fresh and full of drama, there was no better character to choose than him.

But I still think it was unneccessary. :(

:beckett:

Mitchell82
January 17th, 2007, 07:33 PM
On second thought i don't get this...

how can the doctor be dead if sunday is when Carson dies yet episodes like the ark he's alive? did they change the episodes around or something? because this makes no sense to me and i'm hoping someone can clear this up. Thanks.

The episode order was orrignally production order. Sunday was ment to air after the Ark before submersion.

Mitchell82
January 17th, 2007, 07:34 PM
Very well put. Such a shame to see such a wonderful character go, no matter what justification is used. While I have never believed death is neccessary to keep a show fresh and full of drama, there was no better character to choose than him.

But I still think it was unneccessary. :(

:beckett:

Agree but it was done with tact. When I think of all the ways it could have been handled I prefer how they did it.

Atlantean Engineer
January 17th, 2007, 07:44 PM
I'd give the episode 8/10 even with the death of Beckett. I'm saddened but also annoyed. I knew he was going because of the news that he wasn't going to be around for next season, but they should've found a better way for his character to exit. Preferably a less permanent exit. At the very least, they could've kept the storyline and had him sent back to Earth to recuperate from serious injury. With an explosion like that, it could take at least a few years, but I guess the producers wanted to really give the episode more of an emotional punch. :( And in that respect, they succeeded quite well.

Atlanis
January 17th, 2007, 07:51 PM
someone is die someone is going to [email protected]~: die

Haliyah
January 17th, 2007, 08:30 PM
Now, here's a burning question: why did they decide to kill him at all? Was there really any specific purpose to that?

Uber
January 17th, 2007, 08:36 PM
Others have mentioned it.Ah...cool. I haven't read through this entire thread.
Aren't you thrown out of the moment every time you see Sheppard? That isn't any kind of regulation haircut. I think the rest of us would be thrown if Sheppard did anything to his hair. He wouldn't be the same guy. Actually he would be the same guy. And of course his hair isn't regulation. But it's a heck of a lot more noticeable in his blues.
It was a memorial service, not a funeral. I think all the others had/will have their moments. We just didn't see it. You probably don't attend a memorial service of someone you don't know. Not everyone would know Dr. Houston, the other 2 confirmed dead, the bomb technician, anyone who died later of their injuries from the first explosion.

But Carson's death affected every single member of the expedition. That's not to demean anyone else's life, that's the last thing Carson would want. But everyone knew Carson. He saw you at your worse, when you were hurt or aching. And he made you feel better, not just with medicine, but because he was Carson.True that. But at the same point, it would have been a better use of resources and energy to send all of them through to earth at once. Also, they're like an extended family...mourning and remembering them as a group would not have taken away from individual events to honor them.

the old briar pipe
January 17th, 2007, 09:10 PM
If I'd been Carson, I would have run so fast I'd have left skid marks.

I kept thinking, "Run, Carson, Run!" And then he had to stride all manly-like and slow. :S


You definitely don't take foreign objects out of the torso, especially shrapnel. It was on the left side, - possibly near or in the spleen - you'd have a major exsangination (bleeding) if you pulled it out, plus it would hurt like hell. Yes, if you get run through the torso, the head, etc. leave the object in, call the emergency folk and sit back and wait, unless you're harpooned to a whale, then you've got a circumstance to pull the object out.

You don't take them out of anywhere if they're embeded like that. Unless it's a splinter. ;)

You're so right, that wrap was just what they were supposed to do, just like they did with Ronon in Condemned and Rodney in Sateda. Imo, whoever does the medical consulting for SGA has done a pretty darn good job so far on the concrete, rl stuff.

(Yes, I am ignoring "Echoes". Why do you ask? :D)


Exploding tumors are far-fetched because the damage that Dr. Hewston (first victim) did was extensive and something else very flammable must have been nearby to have caused that fireball, but then the surgically removed tumor also went up in a fireball. Honestly don't think the human body has enough chemicals inside to create that kind of a fireball but this is scifi, must suspend belief, mus suspend belief.

Heh, yes. This is where I see the medical consultant going, "You want to what? Okay, fine. Just don't put my name on it." It's not as bad as the infamous "de-evolution" ep in ST:TNG, but....

Now I really want to go find out what trace elements in my body are flammable. How morbid. :o

IcyNeko
January 17th, 2007, 09:21 PM
Coming Soon: "HI MY NAME IS KAYWINNET LEE FRYE I'M YORE NEW DOCTAR"

Haliyah
January 17th, 2007, 09:24 PM
You don't take them out of anywhere if they're embeded like that. Unless it's a splinter. ;)

You're so right, that wrap was just what they were supposed to do, just like they did with Ronon in Condemned and Rodney in Sateda.


The bandaging technique is called a "log cabin," by the way...

Haliyah
January 17th, 2007, 09:29 PM
Coming Soon: "HI MY NAME IS KAYWINNET LEE FRYE I'M YORE NEW DOCTAR"


Ah, yes. The old Stargate "reuse old actors" gag. They did it with Ernest/Carson, Narim/Simon, and now Elia/Keller. :mckay:

DarkAngel34994
January 17th, 2007, 09:31 PM
Bye Bye Beckett, But isn't this episode 17 instead of 14?

Yeah it episode 17 i believe but for some reason they keep calling it episode 14. Doesn't bother me anymore.

watcher652
January 17th, 2007, 09:59 PM
Yeah it episode 17 i believe but for some reason they keep calling it episode 14. Doesn't bother me anymore.

The different numbers are the production numbers vs the airing numbers. Which I think means that Paul was still filming shows after Carson died because Carson was in The Ark, which aired before Sunday but has a higher production number.

Another thing I noticed on rewatching the episode. After the scene in John's room and the explosion that sends John and Ronon running out the room, when they run up to Carson to ask what's going on, the person that's being carted away on a stretcher is Dr. Watson. John glances down at him.

And I saw in the credits that it's Dr Hewston, not Houston.

the old briar pipe
January 17th, 2007, 10:02 PM
The bandaging technique is called a "log cabin," by the way...

Thank you. You can see how much I pay attention when my mother speaks. ;)

---

When I originally heard about this ep, there was this thought in the back of my mind that I wouldn't be able to watch it again. Just the once, then bury it deep.

That's not going to be the case.

I keep wanting to go back to the little things, the connections. My fav was Ronon talking about his girlfriend's death and then dropping by to see McKay in Carson's room, packing things away. He was definitely the guy to do that.

Good humor, too. Loved Rodney not knowing what day it was. Loved that Carson looked good even in what was supposed to pass for a fishing vest, I guess. Very much loved that Teyla gives stick lessons to people other than John and Ronon and that she used mission reports as an excuse to beg off golf. *rotfl*

Katie's ferns were cute. They kind of reminded me of Shep's hair. :D

So I'm sure I'll cry the next time I see the end, too (darn you, PM, for always making me sniffle! *hugs Carson*), but I am going to watch it again. And again, and again....

P.S. Throwing my hat into a dangerous ring: I think Shep's marriage broke up due to his inability to talk about his feelings, ever, with anyone. Not infidelity. Besides, now it's official: Elizabeth's kissed/been kissed by as many people on screen than he has, if you count the Janus peck.

watcher652
January 17th, 2007, 10:09 PM
But at the same point, it would have been a better use of resources and energy to send all of them through to earth at once. Also, they're like an extended family...mourning and remembering them as a group would not have taken away from individual events to honor them.
Well, whose to say the other coffins weren't off to the side waiting to be borne by other pallbearers? We just didn't see that.



I keep wanting to go back to the little things, the connections. My fav was Ronon talking about his girlfriend's death and then dropping by to see McKay in Carson's room, packing things away. He was definitely the guy to do that.


Reminded me of Rodney and Ronon's scene together in Tao.

O'Neill is funny
January 17th, 2007, 10:20 PM
The episode order was orrignally production order. Sunday was ment to air after the Ark before submersion.

Thanks. :)

illspirit
January 17th, 2007, 10:24 PM
It has to be said: silly technology aside, this is one of the best episodes of Atlantis, perhaps even Stargate, ever. Truly poignant.

FallenAngelII
January 17th, 2007, 10:25 PM
I suspect all the bodies got sent through the gate, but we just got to see Carson's memorial.
But that's even worse! They booted up the gate, sent bodies through, shut it down, booted it up again and repeated the process. One can only imagine how much ZPM power one needs to do that!

As for John being the person Teyla was talking about: Teyla can't have an open relationship with John for several resons; for one, they're on the same team. So unless you want them to have a covert relationship or for either to step down and leave the team, her telling someone else about it (and them urging her to tell him) would be a very bad idea and against all kinds of regulations.

Mitchell82
January 17th, 2007, 11:26 PM
Thanks. :)

Your Welcome.

Mitchell82
January 17th, 2007, 11:29 PM
But that's even worse! They booted up the gate, sent bodies through, shut it down, booted it up again and repeated the process. One can only imagine how much ZPM power one needs to do that!

As for John being the person Teyla was talking about: Teyla can't have an open relationship with John for several resons; for one, they're on the same team. So unless you want them to have a covert relationship or for either to step down and leave the team, her telling someone else about it (and them urging her to tell him) would be a very bad idea and against all kinds of regulations.

Well actually there are many views on that. 1. Teyla is not ilitary so not all the same rules apply. True it wouldnt be "proper" but I've seen it with civi's and military personnel. It's not really against regs since she isnt technically under his command.

helio9
January 17th, 2007, 11:41 PM
I'm glad they let him go with dignity.

Sorry to play Devil's advocate, but if that bomb disposal guy died (probaby did, it was point blank, armour or no armour), then by deciding to operate he caused the death of 2 people when only one would have died otherwise. The writers really shouldn't have let that slide. Kinda ruins it.

Mitchell82
January 17th, 2007, 11:54 PM
I'm glad they let him go with dignity.

Sorry to play Devil's advocate, but if that bomb disposal guy died (probaby did, it was point blank, armour or no armour), then by deciding to operate he caused the death of 2 people when only one would have died otherwise. The writers really shouldn't have let that slide. Kinda ruins it.

Yeah but he had good intentions. he risked his life to save another that is a honorable trait IMO. The bomb disposal guy knew the risk. Comes with the territory.

Dr Antony (DR of Atlantis)
January 18th, 2007, 12:12 AM
this epesode is rubish I hate it they not oly took there time puting it out but it like all mixed up

IE refeering to this suppose to be ep14 but carson makes apperence in ep15 helping mekay out when hi brains near exsplode of all the advancments

second epesode he apears in is the most resont one is ep17 the new one as he helps taylorand her guest out after inmjerys on the space moon injery.

i've only just maneged to see this epesode im unsure if it just only came out or that its been out a few weeks but makes no sence at all seen as a man to be dead is out ali and helping people I think this epesode is a fantisey one and is not true and all a dream just like the one in SG1 608 THE OTHER GUYS
& 709 AVENGER 2.0 I hope so as that will make sence pluss carson cant die he needs to find a drug that the rath cant fead on humans and also how to deliver a better weapon to trancform the rath from them to humans and keeping them that way.

I hope if this epesode is real that hes asended and not dead but they did state his body and telling his parents which would be so hard to exsplain sorry madam your son is dead but he ant if you get me just dont make sence at all.

on anther note I read some place that Dr beckett will be makeing a less aperence in other epesodes but will not be around a lot and if i remember correctly this happened when daniel asened and why would'nt carson asend hes truth of spirit kind at hart and a very intelegent man.

regards Antony
voting for it to be a non true story or asended carson to come back with more nolege of time and space to fight the rath and we need him in the fight againsted the replecators.

Tristen
January 18th, 2007, 12:54 AM
I have to say that I really liked this episode. I loved all the little character bits, especially the rather hilarious scenes with Ronon and Sheppard. It was a lot of fun to watch them all interact with each other during their downtime. It's always nice to find out that the team also likes to hang out together even when they're not off on a mission.

The only downside to this episode was of course Carson dying. He wasn't my favorite character (that would be Sheppard! ;) ), but I did like him, and I really didn't want him to die. He brought a lot of humor to the show, and like many have said, he was kind of the heart of Atlantis (along with Teyla).

I cried at the end during Beckett's send-off. It was incredibly sad but moving, especially when Sheppard and McKay exchange a glance right before they step through the gate with Carson's coffin. I'm thinking Rodney's not the only one feeling guilty...

One tiny little gripe- well, two actually, is the scene with McKay sorting through Carson's things and Ronon coming in to check on him. IMO it should've been Sheppard instead of Ronon. I understand that a bond needs to be created between Rodney and Ronon, but in this case, I think it would've been more fitting if Sheppard had come in to ask McKay if he was okay and if he needed any help.

Which leads me to my second tiny gripe: at the end, when McKay says, "You were the closest thing to a best friend I've ever had", that just didn't seem right to me. True, Rodney and Carson would probably have more in common than Rodney and Sheppard, but Rodney and Sheppard have been through so much together and they've saved each other's lives countless times. Also, the scenes in previous episodes of the team hanging out together in their down-time, have never shown Carson. It was always Sheppard, McKay, Teyla and Ronon. It just seems to me that Sheppard would be more of a best friend to Rodney than Beckett.

Anyway, this was a great episode, and I hope there'll be many more episodes with good character moments like we got in this ep! Although minus the death of a beloved character, please ;)

xTristen

Alipeeps
January 18th, 2007, 01:56 AM
this epesode is rubish I hate it they not oly took there time puting it out but it like all mixed up

IE refeering to this suppose to be ep14 but carson makes apperence in ep15 helping mekay out when hi brains near exsplode of all the advancments

second epesode he apears in is the most resont one is ep17 the new one as he helps taylorand her guest out after inmjerys on the space moon injery.

i've only just maneged to see this epesode im unsure if it just only came out or that its been out a few weeks but makes no sence at all seen as a man to be dead is out ali and helping people I think this epesode is a fantisey one and is not true and all a dream just like the one in SG1 608 THE OTHER GUYS
& 709 AVENGER 2.0 I hope so as that will make sence pluss carson cant die he needs to find a drug that the rath cant fead on humans and also how to deliver a better weapon to trancform the rath from them to humans and keeping them that way.

I hope if this epesode is real that hes asended and not dead but they did state his body and telling his parents which would be so hard to exsplain sorry madam your son is dead but he ant if you get me just dont make sence at all.

on anther note I read some place that Dr beckett will be makeing a less aperence in other epesodes but will not be around a lot and if i remember correctly this happened when daniel asened and why would'nt carson asend hes truth of spirit kind at hart and a very intelegent man.

regards Antony
voting for it to be a non true story or asended carson to come back with more nolege of time and space to fight the rath and we need him in the fight againsted the replecators.

Wow. Well I had to read your post aloud to try and work out what on earth you were trying to say but to answer your question:

Carson is dead. The episodes were filmed out of order for production reasons so although this episode was filmed before the others you mention (GW episode guide is based on the production order until the US airing order is confirmed so for the moment it is incorrect) it was always intended to air as it has, AFTER those episodes. So yes, Carson saved Rodney in Tao of Rodney, and yes he went to the space station to help rescue the team in The Ark.

And then he died in Sunday.

Willow'sCat
January 18th, 2007, 02:25 AM
Poor Teyla was obviously working up to make a move on Beckett, not Shep as many assume. Poor lass held herself together well during the service, though.
You know, I am a little confused on this and that may be what TPTB wanted. ;) But didn't they say she had a crush on one of the marines in one of the other eps? But does Teyla work with other marines? How could she then say she should know "him" better then the other women?

I know they are teasing us in a way but... and also if it was Carson he is not really shy, why wouldn't he have asked her out if he was interested?

Sorry not a shipper but just interested on this little exchange.


One tiny little gripe- well, two actually, is the scene with McKay sorting through Carson's things and Ronon coming in to check on him. IMO it should've been Sheppard instead of Ronon. I understand that a bond needs to be created between Rodney and Ronon, but in this case, I think it would've been more fitting if Sheppard had come in to ask McKay if he was okay and if he needed any help.

Which leads me to my second tiny gripe: at the end, when McKay says, "You were the closest thing to a best friend I've ever had", that just didn't seem right to me. True, Rodney and Carson would probably have more in common than Rodney and Sheppard, but Rodney and Sheppard have been through so much together and they've saved each other's lives countless times. Also, the scenes in previous episodes of the team hanging out together in their down-time, have never shown Carson. It was always Sheppard, McKay, Teyla and Ronon. It just seems to me that Sheppard would be more of a best friend to Rodney than Beckett.
Well my take on the first scene I am still WTF about that, I have no answer as to why it wasn't Sheppard it should have been IMHO. *shrugs*

The second, now see I think Sheppard and McKay on one level are equals and do get along well, but they are not open with each other enough yet to be close friends. A lot of their interactions tend to be around missions and well maybe they just don't have the time to talk or do "buddy" type things and playing chess is not all that conducive to conversation if you want to win. I also think Carson was more of a geek like McKay then Sheppard, although Sheppard is the coolest dorkiest geek boy around. :p

The other thing is I was taking the scene with Ronon to be going on at the same time as the one with Sheppard and Teyla in the infirmary... I guess you would have to write Ronon in the infirmary then and I don't know if that would have worked as well... hmm I do feel cheated on the lack of McKay/Sheppard in this episode but then I guess that is payback for having so much of them in all the other eps. :D

Teotl
January 18th, 2007, 02:26 AM
I really liked the "behind the scenes at Atlantis" thing this episode had going on. There was lots of good character moments and it was all very well done. I thought Carson's death was poignant, but was too similar to Heroes, which completely overshadows it. I have to admit that Carson never really made much of an impression on me until this episode. He was a good character but I didn't (and still don't, fully) understand why everyone was raving about him.

The bagpiper at the end was a bit much. "He's Scottish, therefore he must have bagpipes playing at his funeral!" Uh huh. Anyone plays the bagpipes at my funeral and I'll come back long enough to shoot them with a P90 buried with me just in case.

Kept expecting them to launch into the national anthem as well.

O Doctor Beckett,
When will we see,
Your like again?
You performed major surgery,
On a man who had been exposed,
To radiation,
It gave him a tumour,
Which you safely removed,
And then it exploded.

dosed150
January 18th, 2007, 02:58 AM
i thought it was a good episode carson will be missed but if they bring him back some how i will be annoyed stargate has used the rest button too many times before its almost at the stage that death in stargate has no meaning it looks like this may be a change in direction for the better

2ndgenerationalteran
January 18th, 2007, 02:59 AM
its so sad, everyone rejected him before he died... RIP carson becket.


i must say it did have the feel like he ascended in the end though

beale947
January 18th, 2007, 03:49 AM
its so sad, everyone rejected him before he died... RIP carson becket.


i must say it did have the feel like he ascended in the end though

Not everysingle Charater on our side ascends when they die. He's most probaly dead for good. :mad:

Nephelyn
January 18th, 2007, 04:01 AM
who is the stupid dumbass of an idiot that killed beckett?????? I wish i could kick his ass for this!!! I miss him already... It wount be the same on atlantis without him... And no one can fill in the gap they created...

:jack_new_anime25:

Atlanis
January 18th, 2007, 04:07 AM
As anyone noticed that Dr. Weir and Dr. Becket they have one epasoide featuring them but no more sure a few seens but nothing that was dealing with them on a personal level for Carson he had only one epasoide "Posioning Well"
but after which he was treated as a recuring charicter for the entire three year tenure and Dr. Weir had only "The Real World" and again she was also treated as a secondary charicter how about the writting team go back to Unaversty and retake their classes on utalizing all of their charicters?

Alipeeps
January 18th, 2007, 04:11 AM
As anyone noticed that Dr. Weir and Dr. Becket they have one epasoide featuring them but no more sure a few seens but nothing that was dealing with them on a personal level for Carson he had only one epasoide "Posioning Well"
but after which he was treated as a recuring charicter for the entire three year tenure and Dr. Weir had only "The Real World" and again she was also treated as a secondary charicter how about the writting team go back to Unaversty and retake their classes on utalizing all of their charicters?

Sorry, but I can't help giggling at the notion of such a poorly-spelt post telling the writers that they need further education.... :lol: :rolleyes:

spirited Chihiro
January 18th, 2007, 04:13 AM
I TOTALLY didn't see Carson/Teyla, either, but...
A friend of mine said that Rachel Luttrell mentions in one of the season 2 commentaries (the episode that Charin dies) that there was a scene where Teyla and Carson KISSED, but it was cut. Can anyone confirm that?

Yeah they mention that at the end of one of the scenes, Teyla gives Carson a hug and a kiss...though because of the relationship with Cadman, or potential relationship they removed it...but from the tone of voice, i kind of assumed that it was a kiss on the cheek with the hug...but who knows...

expendable_crewman
January 18th, 2007, 04:16 AM
Well actually there are many views on that. 1. Teyla is not ilitary so not all the same rules apply. True it wouldnt be "proper" but I've seen it with civi's and military personnel. It's not really against regs since she isnt technically under his command.I agree, there are many views.

From personal experience, it is not against the regs. I'll put the reasons behind spoilers for folks who have seen this before or feel it's off topic:

1. We could date our civilian contractors, and that's RL. On the other hand, I don't look at Atlantis military hierachy in the tradition sense, because it is the most non-traditional framework I've ever seen.

2. Teyla is more civilian than the scientists, who early in the series remind a Marine officer about not having to take orders from the military. Teyla is local, and is free to follow her customs for obvious reasons.

3. Teyla takes Sheppard's orders in the field ... unless she doesn't want to, which is pretty much status quo for everyone on Sheppard's team, but I'm not complaining. It's interesting to watch. There are no repercussions in the field or on base when Sheppard gets questioned in the field by his people, therefore no military hierarchy as we are used to seeing it. Try questioning the team leader on an RL mission or calling him by his first name. Doesn't happen.

4. The important reasons senior leaders shouldn't date at work have to do with perceived influence over pay increases, job assignments, etc. Rather than pay (does she get any?) or performance reviews, Teyla's got the Athosians and the Athosians' relationship with the Earthers. Sheppard doesn't have the authority to influence Athosian relations with Atlantis. Weir does. And the IOA.

5. With regard to special treatment for Teyla .... The show wired Sheppard with this iron-hard belief no one is left behind. The folks on his team have no worries if he'll get aggressive to save everyone, anyone, or just someone. To get "saved" by Sheppard, membership on Sheppard's team is all that's required.

In Sateda:
He asked the Daedalus to head toward a hive ship for Ronon.

In No Man's Land: While the Daedalus is trying to take out the hive ships' weapons, Sheppard realizes the beaming thing McKay rigged doesn't work and Ronon and McKay are trapped. He takes a glider with limited fuel into hyperspace.

I could go on.



That's what I see and I like it.

Admiral Mappalazarou
January 18th, 2007, 05:07 AM
right loved the ep. now someone clear something up for me...WTF happened in the end???? we've never seen a ghost on a fallen comrade before!!!! Why didn't Dr Frasier come back for one final goodbye!!!? I thought Carson ascended or maybe Rodney was just dreaming...?

Anyone know what really happened?

Admiral Mappalazarou
January 18th, 2007, 05:09 AM
But that's even worse! They booted up the gate, sent bodies through, shut it down, booted it up again and repeated the process. One can only imagine how much ZPM power one needs to do that!

Maybe the others got sent back on the Deadalus and they wanted to pick one person for the memorial that everyone in the city knew; Carson.

Callie
January 18th, 2007, 06:16 AM
I think everyone has missed the most important question of all:

Who will get custody of the wee baby turtles?!

obsessed1
January 18th, 2007, 06:42 AM
Well actually there are many views on that. 1. Teyla is not ilitary so not all the same rules apply. True it wouldnt be "proper" but I've seen it with civi's and military personnel. It's not really against regs since she isnt technically under his command.

plus they have been holed up in Atlantis for a while and they should beable to ahve a life out there. Away from earth (Though they still have contact) some of the rules could probably be bent. And as teyla isnt military, and not tied to the same rules, and is from another planet, it probably wouldnt be such a bad thing if she got with John.

obsessed1
January 18th, 2007, 06:42 AM
this epesode is rubish I hate it they not oly took there time puting it out but it like all mixed up

IE refeering to this suppose to be ep14 but carson makes apperence in ep15 helping mekay out when hi brains near exsplode of all the advancments

second epesode he apears in is the most resont one is ep17 the new one as he helps taylorand her guest out after inmjerys on the space moon injery.

i've only just maneged to see this epesode im unsure if it just only came out or that its been out a few weeks but makes no sence at all seen as a man to be dead is out ali and helping people I think this epesode is a fantisey one and is not true and all a dream just like the one in SG1 608 THE OTHER GUYS
& 709 AVENGER 2.0 I hope so as that will make sence pluss carson cant die he needs to find a drug that the rath cant fead on humans and also how to deliver a better weapon to trancform the rath from them to humans and keeping them that way.

I hope if this epesode is real that hes asended and not dead but they did state his body and telling his parents which would be so hard to exsplain sorry madam your son is dead but he ant if you get me just dont make sence at all.

on anther note I read some place that Dr beckett will be makeing a less aperence in other epesodes but will not be around a lot and if i remember correctly this happened when daniel asened and why would'nt carson asend hes truth of spirit kind at hart and a very intelegent man.

regards Antony
voting for it to be a non true story or asended carson to come back with more nolege of time and space to fight the rath and we need him in the fight againsted the replecators.

Huh???

unknownterra
January 18th, 2007, 06:48 AM
I think everyone has missed the most important question of all:

Who will get custody of the wee baby turtles?!
Didn't they starve to death :beckettanime14:

Alipeeps
January 18th, 2007, 06:50 AM
Didn't they starve to death :beckettanime14:

They're soup. :D

AlphaBlu
January 18th, 2007, 07:13 AM
Don't ask me where I got it, but I really did think at one point that Beckett was becoming a reoccuring character, and that the reason for it was because Beckett was going to end up joining Michael and become a semi-badguy - as Beckett becomes a wraith and then willing goes off with Michael and so on.

I don't know why I thought that, but it sounded interesting, if a bit wild.

Anyway, so, yes, Beckett is dead. Excellent episode enjoyed every moment of it. Very sad to see Beckett go, but the way he went was fine. Nice send off, good to keep it mainly with Rodney's grief over it, given the relationship between those two. Nice bit with Ronan and Rodney. I really didn't know Beckett was going to die.

The sad part of this episode however is not the death of a character, or even the individuals I see everywhere going on and on about the feasibility of explosive tumas (it's a show about a worlmhole and has omnipotent energy beings - explosive tumas are the least of our worries). The sad part about this is we're right back where we were 5 years ago at the end of Season 5 - a character dead, an E-mail campaign, a poor actor about to be vilified and compared to Beckett at every turn (like it's somehow Jewel's fault that Beckett is gone), legions of vocal and vacant fans campagning over whatever nonsense conspiracy theory has entered their skulls this week and worst of all - the separation of the fan community into little 'anti' and 'pro' groups all being force to take sides in a 'you're either with us or against us' approach to fandom.

It makes us look pathetic. It was horrible 5 years ago, with people screaming endlessly about how they'd never watch the show again and blah blah blah (and there are still some of the same people saying the same thing 5 years on... which is quite amusing), and it'll be horrible again now to re-live it.

I know my views are very much are a 'why can't we all just get along' way of looking at things, but c'mon - it's a television show. We have no control over it, and we just have to accept that. The show goes on, and we will to continue to watch it (at the same time as claiming we'll never watch it again).

Anyway, remember every one, as Ford said - 'stuff happens'.

You guys remember Ford right? ;)

BYE

GaterGina71
January 18th, 2007, 08:40 AM
Haven't been here in a while, but I wanted to comment on this ep. While I enjoyed some of the ep regarding the backstory, Carson's death was absolutely pointless. Why? It seems they took the most valuable recurring character on this show and got rid of him. Although a recurring character, thier role is a absolutley necessary one. They are what can be considered the 'behind the scenes hero'. Watching this ep brought back the useless death of another character on sg-1, which should have never happened.If they were going to kill him off, it should have been during the surgery of the man with the tumor, not while he was walking away. I think it would have served his character better. I haven't cried during an ep since I don't know when, but I did with this.

Unamed
January 18th, 2007, 09:12 AM
has beckett ascended? what was with that bit at the end was rodney just talking to himself imagining becket was there?? this episode was so sad

oh and i noticed some ppl saying carson not worthy tp ascend but he did save many lives and died saving a life too

Alipeeps
January 18th, 2007, 09:58 AM
oh and i noticed some ppl saying carson not worthy tp ascend but he did save many lives and died saving a life too

Just being nice and saving lives doesn't guarantee you ascension. It is an evolutionary process - as shown in Tao of Rodney, it requires a physical advancement (either that or intervention from an outside source such as Oma) *and* a mental component... It doesn't just happen.

cshawzye
January 18th, 2007, 10:02 AM
I haven't been able to read through all the posts in here yet, I'm going to go back through and try to accomplish that in a bit but I thought I'd just post my thoughts up about this episode ....

Sunday is such a conundrum, to me. I loved it, I hated it and I thought it was just ok, all at the same time. It’s actually a very strange feeling when thinking about an episode. I thought it was great seeing Weir out of her base uniform, loved when Ronon came in while Rodney was cleaning out Carson’s quarters, I cried my eyes out before Carson was gone and through the rest of the episode. At the same time too, I had a heck of a laugh watching Rodney blunder his way through his time with Katie, and nearly cried laughing watching Ronon golf with Sheppard. I also hate what's happened to Beckett and think there are other ways the episode could have been handled that didn't lead to Carson's death. It was all very strange. And as much as I want to just outright hate this episode because of what happened to Carson I must admit, I can’t. All of the things I went through in the episode, the ups and downs and in betweens, signal to me not only stellar acting but great story-telling. I hope that we continue to get episodes of this quality, although I don’t want to see the loss of anymore main cast members.

Cat_the_Alien
January 18th, 2007, 10:12 AM
Worst episode ever.

Lame, pointless "storyline" (if you can even call that pointless compilation of scenes a story)... and all of a sudden, out of nowhere... BOOM! Lamest death scene ever. Hi! He was killed by an exploding tumour!!!!!!!! How unbelievably stupid is that!

I'm so disappointed in this episode.

ShadowMaat
January 18th, 2007, 10:24 AM
The standards for ascension have dropped dramatically over the past few years. Pretty much anyone can ascend for any reason at all. And un-ascend again whenever it's convenient. :rolleyes:

That being said, however, Carson didn't ascend. Rodney was imagining Carson at the end, giving himself one last chance to say goodbye to his best friend.

Mercury973
January 18th, 2007, 11:09 AM
Just small two cents and all.

DH- you blew me away, again. Oh, the last scene. Just broke me. I was keeping it together until then, but by the end, I lost it.

This is not an episode that I will ever willingly see again, since the premise was just to get rid of Beckett, and I hate death eps, but, bravo to Hewlett. Great piece of acting.

Sad little lol for the wee babbie turtles left behind.

TJuk
January 18th, 2007, 11:13 AM
Don't ask me where I got it, but I really did think at one point that Beckett was becoming a reoccuring character, and that the reason for it was because Beckett was going to end up joining Michael and become a semi-badguy - as Beckett becomes a wraith and then willing goes off with Michael and so on.

I don't know why I thought that, but it sounded interesting, if a bit wild.

Anyway, so, yes, Beckett is dead. Excellent episode enjoyed every moment of it. Very sad to see Beckett go, but the way he went was fine. Nice send off, good to keep it mainly with Rodney's grief over it, given the relationship between those two. Nice bit with Ronan and Rodney. I really didn't know Beckett was going to die.

The sad part of this episode however is not the death of a character, or even the individuals I see everywhere going on and on about the feasibility of explosive tumas (it's a show about a worlmhole and has omnipotent energy beings - explosive tumas are the least of our worries). The sad part about this is we're right back where we were 5 years ago at the end of Season 5 - a character dead, an E-mail campaign, a poor actor about to be vilified and compared to Beckett at every turn (like it's somehow Jewel's fault that Beckett is gone), legions of vocal and vacant fans campagning over whatever nonsense conspiracy theory has entered their skulls this week and worst of all - the separation of the fan community into little 'anti' and 'pro' groups all being force to take sides in a 'you're either with us or against us' approach to fandom.

It makes us look pathetic. It was horrible 5 years ago, with people screaming endlessly about how they'd never watch the show again and blah blah blah (and there are still some of the same people saying the same thing 5 years on... which is quite amusing), and it'll be horrible again now to re-live it.

I know my views are very much are a 'why can't we all just get along' way of looking at things, but c'mon - it's a television show. We have no control over it, and we just have to accept that. The show goes on, and we will to continue to watch it (at the same time as claiming we'll never watch it again).

Anyway, remember every one, as Ford said - 'stuff happens'.

You guys remember Ford right? ;)

BYE


There is a very big difference however. MS chose to leave, yes he may have realised his mistake and come back, but at the end of the day it was HIS choice. I may not have liked it, but I didn't scream about it because I had to respect his decision.

However it seems almost obvious it WAS NOT Paul's choice to leave, judging by the message on his official website and from cons reports where he was 'encouraging' fans, telling them 'TPTB listen'. You have angry fans because people feel outraged and sadded by the treatment of the actor as well as his character. Its obvious from David and other cast/crew's comments its not just the fans who neither understand nor feel this is a wise decision. Remember the rumours were essentially started by Torri and David themselves.

Conspiracy theories aside because I like FACTS you're talking about someone who has proved himself to be a fan favourite...FACT. Has been constantly praised by TPTB....FACT. Gero himself declared Paul the 'break out star'....FACT. And then the very same man turns round and writes his character pointless death only a season and a half AFTER they promoted him and then declares it 'the best episode ever'??? WTF???

It makes no sense, the episode and his death barely made sense but this is worse. Why kill off such a popular character when you only get renewed by the skin of your teeth because of low ratings? Why turn away and piss off a percentage of your fanbase...essentially the core audience? You should be building on that core audience, not alienating it. Not to mention the rest of the cast changes, its caused a HUGE amount of upset and justfiably a bad vibe amongst the fans. We're not just upset about the character's death, we're worried for the future of this show. There are plenty of ways to be 'dramatic' without a wasted character death which can and is backfiring.

Beckett had a million dramatic storylines still left to be explored, some left unfinished, but instead they kill him off, make no comment on it, almost refuse to. What does that tell me? They made a very big mistake.

Elinor
January 18th, 2007, 12:32 PM
'Oh my god! They killed Carson!'

What an episode....it took me through the gamut of emotions!

I loved and laughed at Ronon and Shep playing games! Ronon and his one handed golf! Oh, and the one stick, one armed, one legged hopping fighting...I was killing myself!! Great stuff...and then Rodney's accidental marriage proposal. Heh!

But...oh no! Shep backstory overload!! We get two revelations in one episode....two!! Not only has he played golf since he was six (?), but he was married as well! (er...not when he was six!!) Flippin' heck...BRAIN.CAN'T.COPE!! http://www.clicksmilies.com/s1106/lachen/laughing-smiley-004.gif

Then we get the sadness of Carson getting killed. Awww...I'm going to miss the lovely Dr. B. and he's soothing bedside manner. Hope we see him again. You know what though? I didn't cry...was sad yes...but no tears. I want to cry dammit...so I'm going make myself watch it again and again until I do. Carson deserves it!

Thank you Paul McGillion for the great entertainment. I will miss you!

:)

Nel
January 18th, 2007, 12:51 PM
I've got completely mixed feelings about this episode.

There were good bits (even great bits) in it. The acting all round was outstanding. But I don't think I can get beyond the fact it was the episode they killed off Carson. And why? What story line has been enhanced by this? What benefit has it brought to the show? I've no problem with Jewel joining the show - if Carson was still around, I'd be looking forward to it, as I think they would work well together and play off each other well. But I just can't see the benefit of killing off Carson.

As I said there were aspects of the episode I enjoyed.

I liked seeing Elizabeth as a "woman" rather than a "leader". Although I thought her potential boyfriend was a character obviously written by a man who sat down and created a character he thought would be a woman's ideal man (and he wasn't - not for this woman).

I liked the bits with John and Ronon although I thought they went on slightly too long - or should have been cut up with other scenes. But I liked the openness there was between the two, as they talked about relationship (well as much openness as you'd get from these two).

I liked seeing Teyla more relaxed and not having to be "leader of her people" or "warrior queen".

I liked the scene with Rodney and Katie - I'm not sure aobut that ship - but I thought Rodney was really good in that scene (perhaps slightly more David Hewlett than Rodney McKay) but he seemed more appealing in it.

I liked the fact that we saw abit about Radek and Lorne.

I thought Paul McGillion did an amazing job making Carson seem even more appealing in this episode. Carson seemed even more lovable than before if that was possible.

The scenes at the end - Rodney and Ronon, John and Teyla, and then the funeral scene, and then Rodney and Carson at the end - were all very well done. The acting was outstanding and the emotions understated and real.

But what I didn't like was the story line - the plot of the exploding tumours. There were so many ways to write a character out and they chose this one that sounds more like a Monty Python plot device. OK Carson was heroic in a typically Carson sort of way - his dedication to his job showed through in taking over the infirmary on his day off to let his ill colleague rest - and then refusing to condemn a patient to certain death if he could help him.

But "exploding tumours"!!!

All in all - a very well acted episode, that hit many emotional notes because of the quality of the acting. I just felt it was let down by the plot-line - not necessarily the writing, as the lines were good - but the story line wasn't as effective as it could be.

Haliyah
January 18th, 2007, 01:03 PM
I want to see the writers make good on their claim that "no one ever truly dies in sci-fi." I want to see how they get out of this plot hole they've dug themselves into. Hopefully, they'll somehow dig a tunnel, and come out on the other side with a fabulous way to bring Carson back.

You know what's one odd thing I'm hoping for? I hope that at the start of some episode that there'll be a dream sequence with an accusatory Carson. Then Rodney'll wake up with a cold sweat and Carson's name on his lips. Then he'll realize it was only a dream, tear and choke up, and then try to go back to sleep whilst dealing with residual guilt.

It would be good to show just how much Carson's pointless death affected him, and the rest of the team.

I see a lot of visits to Heightmeyer in the future...

mishe
January 18th, 2007, 01:15 PM
It was a great episode with a very sad ending. I wish it ended different because I really liked Carson. :(

Mercury973
January 18th, 2007, 01:15 PM
I want to see the writers make good on their claim that "no one ever truly dies in sci-fi." I want to see how they get out of this plot hole they've dug themselves into. Hopefully, they'll somehow dig a tunnel, and come out on the other side with a fabulous way to bring Carson back.

Maybe they'll have him return, in a shower. (Ah, Patrick Duffy, you slay me)

OoOoOoh! It was all a dream....

Haliyah
January 18th, 2007, 01:25 PM
Maybe they'll have him return, in a shower. (Ah, Patrick Duffy, you slay me)

OoOoOoh! It was all a dream....


I wish it were a dream...

I don't understand the shower reference, though... :beckettanime14:

Tukka
January 18th, 2007, 01:30 PM
Absolutely great ep. Loved to see normal life too in Atlantis.
Beckett is a great loss for series, but at least his dead was very emotional. Sh*t happens I say, but yeah, its scifi! He'll be back someday.

Also loved that Ronon and Shep conversation, when they talked about Teyla, Joe absolutely may have some interest on her.

One of the best eps of this season, if we dont count that sad thing :<

Mitchell82
January 18th, 2007, 01:32 PM
I agree, there are many views.

From personal experience, it is not against the regs. I'll put the reasons behind spoilers for folks who have seen this before or feel it's off topic:

1. We could date our civilian contractors, and that's RL. On the other hand, I don't look at Atlantis military hierachy in the tradition sense, because it is the most non-traditional framework I've ever seen.

2. Teyla is more civilian than the scientists, who early in the series remind a Marine officer about not having to take orders from the military. Teyla is local, and is free to follow her customs for obvious reasons.

3. Teyla takes Sheppard's orders in the field ... unless she doesn't want to, which is pretty much status quo for everyone on Sheppard's team, but I'm not complaining. It's interesting to watch. There are no repercussions in the field or on base when Sheppard gets questioned in the field by his people, therefore no military hierarchy as we are used to seeing it. Try questioning the team leader on an RL mission or calling him by his first name. Doesn't happen.

4. The important reasons senior leaders shouldn't date at work have to do with perceived influence over pay increases, job assignments, etc. Rather than pay (does she get any?) or performance reviews, Teyla's got the Athosians and the Athosians' relationship with the Earthers. Sheppard doesn't have the authority to influence Athosian relations with Atlantis. Weir does. And the IOA.

5. With regard to special treatment for Teyla .... The show wired Sheppard with this iron-hard belief no one is left behind. The folks on his team have no worries if he'll get aggressive to save everyone, anyone, or just someone. To get "saved" by Sheppard, membership on Sheppard's team is all that's required.

In Sateda:
He asked the Daedalus to head toward a hive ship for Ronon.

In No Man's Land: While the Daedalus is trying to take out the hive ships' weapons, Sheppard realizes the beaming thing McKay rigged doesn't work and Ronon and McKay are trapped. He takes a glider with limited fuel into hyperspace.

I could go on.



That's what I see and I like it.
I agree nice post.

Belamel
January 18th, 2007, 01:33 PM
I wish it were a dream...

I don't understand the shower reference, though... :beckettanime14:
Patrick Duffy played Bobby Ewing on Dallas in the 80's. His character was dead for a season and at the begining of the next season, you see his character for the 1st time stepping out of the shower. The explaination was the whole previous season had been one character's dream.

ShadowMaat
January 18th, 2007, 01:34 PM
I want to see the writers make good on their claim that "no one ever truly dies in sci-fi." I want to see how they get out of this plot hole they've dug themselves into.
Under no circumstances do I EVER want to see them make good on that claim. I loathe it when they do things like that because I feel like it cheapens the death and belittles the sacrifices that have been made. Flashbacks, maybe, but not some AU version or clone or replicator or "travel back in time" gimmick. Please, no.

leelakin
January 18th, 2007, 01:34 PM
I want to see the writers make good on their claim that "no one ever truly dies in sci-fi." I want to see how they get out of this plot hole they've dug themselves into. Hopefully, they'll somehow dig a tunnel, and come out on the other side with a fabulous way to bring Carson back.

You know what's one odd thing I'm hoping for? I hope that at the start of some episode that there'll be a dream sequence with an accusatory Carson. Then Rodney'll wake up with a cold sweat and Carson's name on his lips. Then he'll realize it was only a dream, tear and choke up, and then try to go back to sleep whilst dealing with residual guilt.

It would be good to show just how much Carson's pointless death affected him, and the rest of the team.

I see a lot of visits to Heightmeyer in the future...

Oh how I wish that was the case. And dito on "No-one ever dies in sci fi", I think I've heard that about 20 times in interviews over the past 2 months.

FoolishPleasure
January 18th, 2007, 01:41 PM
plus they have been holed up in Atlantis for a while and they should beable to ahve a life out there. Away from earth (Though they still have contact) some of the rules could probably be bent. And as teyla isnt military, and not tied to the same rules, and is from another planet, it probably wouldnt be such a bad thing if she got with John.

Teyla isn't tied to any rules, but Sheppard, as an Air Force officer IS. Here is a site for AIR FORCE INSTRUCTION - PROFESSIONAL AND UNPROFESSIONAL RELATIONSHIPS: http://www.e-publishing.af.mil/pubfiles/af/36/afi36-2909/afi36-2909.pdf

Teyla would be considered "civilian". As you can read, there can be no hanky-panky between Shep/Teyla without ramifications. Specifically note: "Relationships with Civilians" and "Dating and Close Friendships", along with "Responses to Cases Involving Dating and Sexual Relationships".

If TPTB move along with any Shep/Teyla "ship", they are making a mockery of US military Standards of Conduct.

And to be fair and not play favorites with "ships", here is the military "Civilian Conduct and Responsibilities" as well.

http://www.e-publishing.af.mil/pubfiles/af/36/afi36-703/afi36-703.pdf

Looks like there shouldn't be any Weir/Shep either. ;)

Hopefully that will put all the "ship" stuff to rest, and we can have a fun and interesting show. :)

Cailliath
January 18th, 2007, 01:58 PM
Under no circumstances do I EVER want to see them make good on that claim. I loathe it when they do things like that because I feel like it cheapens the death and belittles the sacrifices that have been made. Flashbacks, maybe, but not some AU version or clone or replicator or "travel back in time" gimmick. Please, no.

Ditto Shadow. As much as I loved Carson, to bring him back would definitely not do justice to his character, or even the show.

I didn't want the show to lose him but, now that he's gone, the better way to remember him would be through memories, flashbacks etc. Unfortunately, Stargate Atlantis isn't so great at doing this due to the whole "reset" thing.

I'm still not entirely sold on Sunday. Yeh there were great character moments on both ends of the emotional spectrum from laughter to tears, but there was something jarring about it to me.

Haliyah
January 18th, 2007, 02:08 PM
Patrick Duffy played Bobby Ewing on Dallas in the 80's. His character was dead for a season and at the begining of the next season, you see his character for the 1st time stepping out of the shower. The explaination was the whole previous season had been one character's dream.


...O_o

Now that would be supremely confusing...

Haliyah
January 18th, 2007, 02:23 PM
Under no circumstances do I EVER want to see them make good on that claim. I loathe it when they do things like that because I feel like it cheapens the death and belittles the sacrifices that have been made. Flashbacks, maybe, but not some AU version or clone or replicator or "travel back in time" gimmick. Please, no.


Okay, I maybe should've been more specific. I do like flashsbacks (and I can see an entire episode of flashbacks coming up in the next season as they deal with they're loss). I however, want to see an original, unusual way of doing it. Alternate universe, time-travel, and cloning is so old. Having it as all being a dream sequence would be...wrong. And, Replicarson? Please. I want to see it done right

Bringing him back would be very difficult to do properly, which is why I hope they like a challenge.

AlphaBlu
January 18th, 2007, 02:27 PM
However it seems almost obvious it WAS NOT Paul's choice to leave, judging by the message on his official website and from cons reports where he was 'encouraging' fans, telling them 'TPTB listen'. You have angry fans because people feel outraged and sadded by the treatment of the actor as well as his character. Its obvious from David and other cast/crew's comments its not just the fans who neither understand nor feel this is a wise decision. Remember the rumours were essentially started by Torri and David themselves.

Writers writing characters out of a show is not new. You're acting as though he was 'hard done by' and that this sort of thing has never happened before.


Conspiracy theories aside because I like FACTS you're talking about someone who has proved himself to be a fan favourite...FACT.

Which means exactly zip.


Has been constantly praised by TPTB....FACT.

Eh? What's that got to do with anything?


Gero himself declared Paul the 'break out star'....FACT.

In the words of another missing character:

And? So? But? Therefore?

He was written out. This has happend 100 times on 100 shows before, and will continue to happen for the rest of time. Get over it and just watch the damned show.

BYE

Ella
January 18th, 2007, 02:47 PM
If TPTB move along with any Shep/Teyla "ship", they are making a mockery of US military Standards of Conduct.

And they didn't already do that with the Sam/Jack ship?

Atlantis, being an international organization (in theory anyway) with international soldiers under military command almost undoubtedly has its own charter on the kinds of allowed behavior that may not include such regs. I doubt other countries would have allowed their soldiers to be judged under US standard and I doubt either that the international oversight committee would have opened a giant can of worms by having each soldier judged by his own country's code. It would tend to divide the unit too much.

ShoDar
January 18th, 2007, 02:54 PM
And they didn't already do that with the Sam/Jack ship?

Atlantis, being an international organization (in theory anyway) with international soldiers under military command almost undoubtedly has its own charter on the kinds of allowed behavior that may not include such regs. I doubt other countries would have allowed their soldiers to be judged under US standard and I doubt either that the international oversight committee would have opened a giant can of worms by having each soldier judged by his own country's code. It would tend to divide the unit too much.

Personally, I don't think she was referring to Shep...but anyway... are there international soldiers there? I know there are lots of scientists, but I was under the impression that all the military were US marines and air force.

Ella
January 18th, 2007, 02:59 PM
There are at least German soldiers there.

Haliyah
January 18th, 2007, 03:08 PM
There are at least German soldiers there.


South African, too.

Ace
January 18th, 2007, 03:16 PM
It was very distracting to see Sheppard in full dress blues... just points out how much he is not an Air Force officer. He doesn't act like one, look like one...

Maybe it's the length of his hair that really bugs me and makes him look unprofessional? I don't know... I just can't take him seriously in the dress blues.

I don't know what it is whether its the writing or the costume department but there is just a huge noticeable difference between SG-1 and Atlantis. The military officers in SG-1 look and act very professional and I am able to take them seriously. I can honestly say "Yeah... they look, talk and act like the Lt. Cols I have known in the Air Force".

Just can't say the same for Atlantis... and that is very disappointing. Especially when the military accuracy and representation is what drew me to Stargate in the first place.

Ace

caty
January 18th, 2007, 03:28 PM
Absolutely great ep. Loved to see normal life too in Atlantis.
Beckett is a great loss for series, but at least his dead was very emotional. Sh*t happens I say, but yeah, its scifi! He'll be back someday.

Also loved that Ronon and Shep conversation, when they talked about Teyla, Joe absolutely may have some interest on her.

One of the best eps of this season, if we dont count that sad thing :<

Huh? Joe is interested in Teyla?? He is married and has kids!! :lol:

Chailyn
January 18th, 2007, 03:41 PM
South African, too.


I know I've also seen Russian. I think there's been French, Spanish, and Czech soldiers too? There might have also been British troops, but I'm not positive.

Anise76
January 18th, 2007, 03:44 PM
Writers writing characters out of a show is not new. You're acting as though he was 'hard done by' and that this sort of thing has never happened before.

I don't believe she stated it WAS the first time it's happened. She was referring to the manner in which it was done, which many of us, myself included, feel was out of order and unnecessary to carry the plot of the episode.


In the words of another missing character:

And? So? But? Therefore?

He was written out. This has happend 100 times on 100 shows before, and will continue to happen for the rest of time. Get over it and just watch the damned show.

BYE

Okay, so, say for example, TPTB arbitrarily offed YOUR favourite character - the one you would be royally pissed off if they removed them from the show. Just because Carson isn't YOUR favourite character doesn't mean that he can't mean a lot to others.

Do you have a problem with people getting passionate about a show they love? And having misgivings about MAJOR cast changes which appear to have been made with NO good reason behind them, and TPTB refusing to comment, unlike they did with Weir's... "demotion"? I, for one, am NOT one of those who is prepared to stand by unquestioningly when things like this come out of the blue. I PAY to watch this show, and, as such, feel as though some answers, at the very least, ought to be forthcoming.

ShadowMaat
January 18th, 2007, 04:05 PM
I've seen a lot of people say that Carson's death was "pointless." Is there ANY way he could have died that would be considered pointed? In what possible manner could his death ever be accepted by those who don't want him to go?

Pointless would be him getting atomized by an incoming wormhole.
Pointless would be him falling off the railing into the water. Or tripping down the stairs. Or slipping in the shower.
Pointless would be him choking to death on a carrot.
Pointless would be him falling victim to a transporter malfunction.

Carson died doing his job. He died trying to save the life of another; someone that everyone else had already given up as dead. He died trying to do the right thing. How many of us will be as lucky?

Atlanis
January 18th, 2007, 04:07 PM
Sorry, but I can't help giggling at the notion of such a poorly-spelt post telling the writers that they need further education.... :lol: :rolleyes:

Hey I am dislecsic I can't help it

LoveConquers
January 18th, 2007, 04:08 PM
I think everyone has missed the most important question of all:

Who will get custody of the wee baby turtles?!

LOL! They actually got forgotten and left behind on earth. Hence Carson's dismay when he remembered them. Hopefully whoever is caring for his apartment is also caring for the turtles and then got willed to his family. I like to think they lived on. ;)

Hypochondriac
January 18th, 2007, 04:15 PM
When was this episode first shown? The last few episodes I saw carson was still alive and nothing was mentioned about him dieing. (The last episode I was was the game and the asteroid/moon one where the people were stored)

Atlanis
January 18th, 2007, 04:15 PM
I thought John was just devorced but even that I think he was saying it cause of bravado

Vixen
January 18th, 2007, 04:28 PM
An emotional episode. I liked the interaction between the characters. It was lovely to see Elizabeth in a different, more softer light. Katie and Rodney are very sweet together.

I didn't like seeing Carson die. I loved his character and always enjoyed the scenes of him and Rodney together. Both had great chemistry and a wonderful friendship. Carson really gave more heart to the show. SGA will feel a little emptier and colder without him now. :( I wish he stayed on.

Ace
January 18th, 2007, 04:29 PM
I've seen a lot of people say that Carson's death was "pointless." Is there ANY way he could have died that would be considered pointed? In what possible manner could his death ever be accepted by those who don't want him to go?

Pointless would be him getting atomized by an incoming wormhole.
Pointless would be him falling off the railing into the water. Or tripping down the stairs. Or slipping in the shower.
Pointless would be him choking to death on a carrot.
Pointless would be him falling victim to a transporter malfunction.

Carson died doing his job. He died trying to save the life of another; someone that everyone else had already given up as dead. He died trying to do the right thing. How many of us will be as lucky?

I agree 100%... if any character is going to die then it should be just like how Carson died. Every week the characters get into trouble... eventually one of those times is going to catch up with them and they will be killed.

That's how they should always die... because that's not pointless. It's doing their jobs like they do everyweek. Pointless deaths would be just like ShadowMaat mentioned above

Ace

watcher652
January 18th, 2007, 04:31 PM
But that's even worse! They booted up the gate, sent bodies through, shut it down, booted it up again and repeated the process. One can only imagine how much ZPM power one needs to do that!
A ZPM can last thousands of years and you're fixated on how many times they're using it for bring back bodies? A ZPM can hold back a barrage from Wraith hive ships and you're worried about the dialing the gate multiple times if everyone had a separate ceremony? I don't think that's what the scene was about. There's only so much you can show. Sometimes you just have to make stuff up yourself and fill in the blanks.

How about this: We see Carson taken thru the Gate. The scene fades. While you weren't watching, other pallbearers follow the first group bearing the others who died.

Again, while it's tragic that the people we only met for this episode were killed and some people that we didn't even see were killed, the thing the rest of us are upset about is the fact that Carson died.


As for John being the person Teyla was talking about: Teyla can't have an open relationship with John for several resons; for one, they're on the same team. So unless you want them to have a covert relationship or for either to step down and leave the team, her telling someone else about it (and them urging her to tell him) would be a very bad idea and against all kinds of regulations.
As others have already said, Teyla is not US military. The military from other countries have apparently agreed to follow the American lead, although, for all we know, there are teams with a foreign military lead that we never see. The lead Gate technician is a sergeant in some branch of the Canadian military.

In fact, the way Sheppard's team is right now, all his team members follow his lead because they want to, not because they have to. Neither Rodney, Ronon nor Teyla are under any obligation to follow Sheppard or to be on Sheppard's team. They are all volunteers.

And, wow, I can't believe how many people still are fixated on Sheppard's hair. Rant follows.
If that takes you out of the show because Sheppard doesn't exactly look what you think the Air Force haircut should be, then the show isn't impacting you the way it should be.

How about we pretend that Sheppard is in this alternate universe where people can use wormholes to travel to another galaxy and have to fight life sucking aliens and that while his hair is the subject of jokes even by aliens, he hasn't been busted down to private for it and probably won't in the near future since he's been saving lives pretty constantly for the past 3 years.

I know some things are supposed to reflect the way things are right now in real life, but Sheppard's non-military hair isn't one of them. The show is not showing any disrespect to the dead, nor to the US military with Sheppard's hair.
Thanks, I needed to get that out.

Anyway, I think I neglected in all my posting to say what a remarkable job all the actors did for this episode. While we are all upset and sad that one of our favorite characters was written out through no fault of his own (no pregnancy (hee, that would be funny for Paul!), no rehab, etc, etc), the actors must have been even more upset that someone they worked with regularly is no longer going to be with them doing the show. I know they know what kind of life is the actor's life, but it still hurts. And I'm always amazed at an actor's ability to be able to say lines and be on the verge of tears and to show such emotion and to let it all be caught on film. Good work, everyone.

prion
January 18th, 2007, 04:51 PM
Teyla isn't tied to any rules, but Sheppard, as an Air Force officer IS. Here is a site for AIR FORCE INSTRUCTION - PROFESSIONAL AND UNPROFESSIONAL RELATIONSHIPS: http://www.e-publishing.af.mil/pubfiles/af/36/afi36-2909/afi36-2909.pdf

Teyla would be considered "civilian". As you can read, there can be no hanky-panky between Shep/Teyla without ramifications. Specifically note: "Relationships with Civilians" and "Dating and Close Friendships", along with "Responses to Cases Involving Dating and Sexual Relationships".

If TPTB move along with any Shep/Teyla "ship", they are making a mockery of US military Standards of Conduct.

And to be fair and not play favorites with "ships", here is the military "Civilian Conduct and Responsibilities" as well.

http://www.e-publishing.af.mil/pubfiles/af/36/afi36-703/afi36-703.pdf

Looks like there shouldn't be any Weir/Shep either. ;)

Hopefully that will put all the "ship" stuff to rest, and we can have a fun and interesting show. :)

Er, if Sheppard isn't supposed to date within the ranks, and he can't date a civilian, what's left? Trees? Squirrels?

prion
January 18th, 2007, 04:53 PM
Pointless deaths would be just like ShadowMaat mentioned above

Ace

Actually, pointless deaths are ones done in order to boost ratings, reshuffle cast for some inane reason, etc. So many shows are killing off regular characters in the past couple tv seasons that they are pointless. It's just for shock value and nothing else.

Seldini
January 18th, 2007, 05:01 PM
See my eariler post, its not that Beckett's death was pointless, the problem is that his death was truly FOOLISH. He was dead wrong in what he did and his actions could have cost a great number of lives and the success of the mission itself (he didn't even care that the explosion might cause the central tower to collapse.) He was pigheaded and stubborn to the end, and instead of condemning one average scientist to his death, he got himself (a medical genius by most accounts) and a bomb technician killed as well. It was horrible for Beckett to go out in this way, though the writers tried to make it seem heroic, an objective view of the situation causes us to notice the pure idiocy of his actions.

Ace
January 18th, 2007, 05:06 PM
Actually, pointless deaths are ones done in order to boost ratings, reshuffle cast for some inane reason, etc. So many shows are killing off regular characters in the past couple tv seasons that they are pointless. It's just for shock value and nothing else.

I can agree to that aswell... but I don't think TPTB thought that killing Carson was going to boost the ratings. They obviously did it for reasons unknown to any of us...

However I am quite pleased as to how it was carried out...

Ace

Alipeeps
January 18th, 2007, 05:08 PM
When was this episode first shown? The last few episodes I saw carson was still alive and nothing was mentioned about him dieing. (The last episode I was was the game and the asteroid/moon one where the people were stored)

It was first shown last Monday, exactly when and where it was meant to be first shown. It was always intended to air after The Game and The Ark (that's why Beckett is alive in those episodes and dead in this one), it was merely filmed out of order, as is quite common with TV shows. GW's episode guide currently reflects the production order, not the airing order.


See my eariler post, its not that Beckett's death was pointless, the problem is that his death was truly FOOLISH. He was dead wrong in what he did and his actions could have cost a great number of lives and the success of the mission itself (he didn't even care that the explosion might cause the central tower to collapse.) He was pigheaded and stubborn to the end, and instead of condemning one average scientist to his death, he got himself (a medical genius by most accounts) and a bomb technician killed as well. It was horrible for Beckett to go out in this way, though the writers tried to make it seem heroic, an objective view of the situation causes us to notice the pure idiocy of his actions.

He was trying to save a patient's life. That's what doctors - good doctors - do. I suppose if he had wheeled the guy into a secure room somewhere and just left him to die, you would have been equally disgusted, claiming he was not heroic and was callous and betrayed his physician's oath etc?

Put it this way - would you rather be treated by a doctor who would risk his life to try and save you.. or one who would sacrifice you in a heartbeat in the name of the (possible) greater good?

LoveConquers
January 18th, 2007, 05:22 PM
Er, if Sheppard isn't supposed to date within the ranks, and he can't date a civilian, what's left? Trees? Squirrels?

Guess that leaves the aliens. Which oh wait, that would be Teyla. ;)

LoveConquers
January 18th, 2007, 05:25 PM
It was first shown last Monday, exactly when and where it was meant to be first shown. It was always intended to air after The Game and The Ark (that's why Beckett is alive in those episodes and dead in this one), it was merely filmed out of order, as is quite common with TV shows. GW's episode guide currently reflects the production order, not the airing order.



We should take bets on how many times and in how many threads you'll have to repeat this. This makes what, 58 for the day? :D

Ace
January 18th, 2007, 05:27 PM
And, wow, I can't believe how many people still are fixated on Sheppard's hair. Rant follows.
If that takes you out of the show because Sheppard doesn't exactly look what you think the Air Force haircut should be, then the show isn't impacting you the way it should be.

How about we pretend that Sheppard is in this alternate universe where people can use wormholes to travel to another galaxy and have to fight life sucking aliens and that while his hair is the subject of jokes even by aliens, he hasn't been busted down to private for it and probably won't in the near future since he's been saving lives pretty constantly for the past 3 years.

I know some things are supposed to reflect the way things are right now in real life, but Sheppard's non-military hair isn't one of them. The show is not showing any disrespect to the dead, nor to the US military with Sheppard's hair.

I'm assuming this is directed at me... First off in my opinion Sheppard has never been a professional which is probably why the senior staff gets along with Sheppard.

Normally I don't mind Sheppard's hair, for the sake of sitting down and watching a quality hour of televison, I forgive the length. But it was just so noticeable in the dress blues that it threw me and other people who know the military out of scene.

It was no longer a scene about one friend helping another friend to get to a funeral of a mutual friend. Something that should have been a solemn scene... instead was a scene about a Lt. Colonel in the US Air Force and his damn long hair.

It was just too noticeable... but the hair has never bothered me. Until seeing him in his dress blues. I have always just thought that Sheppard wasn't a military officer. Anybody remember that horrible salute Sheppard gave Everett in Siege III? I shutter every time I watch that...

I guess that is why I have always enjoyed seeing Ford, Caldwell, Sumner and Everett. They have been my only military refuge for Atlantis. And as I said before I was originally drawn to SG-1 because of the military aspect. Most of the characters on SG-1 remind me of officers I have known in the Air Force.

I can't say the same for any of the main characters in Atlantis. All the good military characters are now recurring... that's a shame in my opinion.

It would be nice to have a strong military presence on the show weekly! Sheppard just isn't that presence for me.... Which is why I continue to enjoy SG-1 more than Atlantis.

Ace

Alipeeps
January 18th, 2007, 05:36 PM
Guess that leaves the aliens. Which oh wait, that would be Teyla. ;)

:lol: Or Ronon.. ;)


We should take bets on how many times and in how many threads you'll have to repeat this. This makes what, 58 for the day? :D

I think I'll be reciting it in my sleep tonight. :rolleyes: Do I get a medal for patience above and beyond the call of duty? :D

FoolishPleasure
January 18th, 2007, 05:40 PM
Er, if Sheppard isn't supposed to date within the ranks, and he can't date a civilian, what's left? Trees? Squirrels?

He can't date anyone on his TEAM. Did you read the link? It is the direct Air Force Regulations. He can date Teyla, but she would have to be on another team, or no team at all, even if she is civilian.

Haliyah
January 18th, 2007, 05:51 PM
This is mostly directed at Ace, I suppose.

If that were you or me, we'd probably take extreme care while getting dressed to make sure we honoured our good friend and comrade properly. But Shep is Shep. He's never placed much store by the rules in the first place, and his focus is his people. He's just lost one, a friend no less, and he probably feels guilty about it. Do you really think his focus is nitpicking his own uniform or getting a haircut so that it's off his ears? It'd be on the fact that they just lost Carson, and it might have partially been his fault.

That bit's not true, of course, but he'd probably think it.

:sheppardanime32:

Ace
January 18th, 2007, 06:02 PM
This is mostly directed at Ace, I suppose.

If that were you or me, we'd probably take extreme care while getting dressed to make sure we honoured our good friend and comrade properly. But Shep is Shep. He's never placed much store by the rules in the first place, and his focus is his people. He's just lost one, a friend no less, and he probably feels guilty about it. Do you really think his focus is nitpicking his own uniform or getting a haircut so that it's off his ears? It'd be on the fact that they just lost Carson, and it might have partially been his fault.

That bit's not true, of course, but he'd probably think it.

:sheppardanime32:

Point taken... Getting a haircut so I looked nice in my uniform would probably be the last thing on my mind when dealing with the loss of a close friend.

However why was it that long in the first place? Like I said it is not that noticeable in the other uniforms he wears so I don't stress out about it. But as an Air Force officer and a Lt. Col no less you would think that your hair would be atleast close to regs.

I bet if you measured Mitchell's, Lorne's, or Reynold's hair they probably wouldn't be within regs. But they look neat and close enough that it doesn't distract and make you think of the actor instead of the character.

*shrugs* It's not that big of a deal... its just the lack of military character in Sheppard that makes me sad! :( Everytime I watch Siege III, I cringe at his salute when I watch this episode I'll be distracted at his hair.

Sheppard is less and less of a officer in the military to me, and more and more of a guy who knows how to shoot a P-90 and was lucky enough to be born with the Ancient gene.

Ace

AlphaBlu
January 18th, 2007, 06:03 PM
I want to see how they get out of this plot hole they've dug themselves into.

You need to look up the meaning of plot hole. A general comment by a producer about people dying in sci-fi does not a plothole make.

A character dying is not a plot hole.

I doubt many people watched Carson dying and though 'How are they going to write him back in next week? That'll be difficult."

BYE

AlphaBlu
January 18th, 2007, 06:16 PM
She was referring to the manner in which it was done, which many of us, myself included, feel was out of order and unnecessary to carry the plot of the episode.

Except for one glaring problem:

We don't know the manner in which it happened.

That has not been revealed, and may never be revealed. Do we know if it was an amicable departure, something caused due to friction? We don't know.

Furthermore I hardly think they just killed a main cast member just for the sake of a single episode. It's not like they just met in the writing room and went:

"Ok, this week I want to kill... hmm... Carson! Yeah! I'll invent an exploding tuna-"
"Make it an exploding tuma, then Carson can remove it and boom!"
"Ok, an exploding tuma. That's cool."
"Excellent work. Next week we'll kill Weir."

This thing was probably in the works for quite a while, and they needed a way to write it into the show, so they took Gero's 'Sunday' concept, ie. the day where nothing much happened, and that became the story.


Okay, so, say for example, TPTB arbitrarily offed YOUR favourite character - the one you would be royally pissed off if they removed them from the show.

For starters, you cannot claim it was an 'arbitrary' decision, so don't. We do not know why it happened, so lose the typical fandom conspiracy nonsense.

Secondly, arbitrary or otherwise, I would be annoyed at the loss of the character, but I'd accept the fact that there is a lot going on behind the scenes and I'll probably never know the full reasons for it. I won't be getting any adds in Variety or screaming for TPTB to reinstate a dead character.

And I've already had my fav character leave a show - Daniel on SG-1. Granted MS, chose to leave, but I didn't mind him going. His presence (or lack thereof) make Season 6 a better Season. And his three appearences were better than all his appearences in the Season beforehand.


Just because Carson isn't YOUR favourite character doesn't mean that he can't mean a lot to others.

There's a difference between a character meaning a lot to someone, and inventing non-existant 'plot holes' and decrying everyone about the decision to get rid of him. It's even worse to demand he come back.

And then there's Jewel. Poor Jewel. It's Corin Nemec all over again.


Do you have a problem with people getting passionate about a show they love?

There's passionate, then there's obsessive.


And having misgivings about MAJOR cast changes which appear to have been made with NO good reason behind them

Again, we don't know the reason.


unlike they did with Weir's... "demotion"?

That decision will help the show. They've done nothing with Weir, just like with Ford. Her being reoccuring will mean the writers won't have to try to find reasons to put her in the show, much like how O'Neill becoming the general of the base helped free up the stories for SG-1 as they weren't tied to his screen time.

BYE

Haliyah
January 18th, 2007, 07:15 PM
Point taken... Getting a haircut so I looked nice in my uniform would probably be the last thing on my mind when dealing with the loss of a close friend.

However why was it that long in the first place? Like I said it is not that noticeable in the other uniforms he wears so I don't stress out about it. But as an Air Force officer and a Lt. Col no less you would think that your hair would be atleast close to regs.

I bet if you measured Mitchell's, Lorne's, or Reynold's hair they probably wouldn't be within regs. But they look neat and close enough that it doesn't distract and make you think of the actor instead of the character.

*shrugs* It's not that big of a deal... its just the lack of military character in Sheppard that makes me sad! :( Everytime I watch Siege III, I cringe at his salute when I watch this episode I'll be distracted at his hair.

Sheppard is less and less of a officer in the military to me, and more and more of a guy who knows how to shoot a P-90 and was lucky enough to be born with the Ancient gene.

Ace


I agree with a lot of that, terrible salute included (of course, I generally don't like American-style salutes to begin with, so I could be biased). I'm a stickler for drill, dress, and deportment, as my cadets and my pipe band know well. Even McKay's hair is within regs, and he's a civilian. If you'll recall, a lot of people didn't really agree with Sheppard being in command, and I think that his command is the only thing keeping him on the straight and narrow. If he were still on Earth, he probably would've been out of the military, had he anywhere to go. He probably would've burned out, or committed suicide after his next tour. Basically, I think he was more slack than average to begin with.

As Sheppard said, he's naturally lazy. So it's obvious that would come out if he's in command; who's going to tell him otherwise?

Aw, damn you. Now that you've mentioned it, it's going to bother me now, too. *grumbles*:mckay:

gebtkd
January 18th, 2007, 07:18 PM
I know that a lot of people are upset with Carson's death and I will miss him too, however, I did enjoy the episode for the little things about the characters especially
Spoilers from Sunday
When Rodney is packing Carson's room, I thought is was fantastic that Ronon came to check on him, it was a nice continuity to their building friendship. It would have been a cliché if it would have been Sheppard. Also, it was the first time since they have known each other that Ronon called him by his first name, to me that spoke volume how it was truly trying to reach Rodney that's the scene that made me cry. The other scene was the glance between Sheppard & Rodney before they carry the casket through the gate, their silence spoke volume and the last scene when Rodney obviously imagined Carson standing beside him, telling him the things he wanted to say. Wow, DH amazing actor. Everyone in the cast did a fantastic job.

Haliyah
January 18th, 2007, 07:19 PM
You need to look up the meaning of plot hole. A general comment by a producer about people dying in sci-fi does not a plothole make.

A character dying is not a plot hole.

I doubt many people watched Carson dying and though 'How are they going to write him back in next week? That'll be difficult."

BYE



Obviously not next week. Duh. TPTB stated that he would be "recurring" in season four. Therefore, I'm wondering how they'll do it.

As for "plot hole," I didn't even know that was an actual term.

Ace
January 18th, 2007, 07:44 PM
Aw, damn you. Now that you've mentioned it, it's going to bother me now, too. *grumbles*:mckay:

LOL Sorry about that! You know the saying... misery loves company ;)

Ace

AlphaBlu
January 18th, 2007, 07:48 PM
Obviously not next week. Duh. TPTB stated that he would be "recurring" in season four. Therefore, I'm wondering how they'll do it.

Probably for the same reasons everything is (sickeningly) referred to as a 'franchise' these days, to keep their options open in case they ever want to do more of it.


As for "plot hole," I didn't even know that was an actual term.

Then perhaps you should not attempt use it, lest you appear foolish.

BYE

Oka
January 18th, 2007, 07:51 PM
I for one do not see why Carson should be mourned, he caused the deaths of those bomb technicians with his negligence. He should've obeyed orders and only one person would've died. Bad writing or what, what a dumb, unnecessary death.

AlphaBlu
January 18th, 2007, 07:52 PM
When Rodney is packing Carson's room, I thought is was fantastic that Ronon came to check on him, it was a nice continuity to their building friendship. It would have been a cliché if it would have been Sheppard.

I agree. Excellent scene. I have to admit I had tears in my eyes when Rodney said "I just should've gone fishing" and Ronan stopped him.


The other scene was the glance between Sheppard & Rodney before they carry the casket through the gate, their silence spoke volume.

That bit was perfect. They didn't need a whole scene together - just a single look was enough to sum up everything they were both going through. Very nicley put together, acted and directed perfectly.

BYE

Haliyah
January 18th, 2007, 07:58 PM
LOL Sorry about that! You know the saying... misery loves company ;)

Ace


xD Yes, yes it does.

Haliyah
January 18th, 2007, 08:10 PM
Probably for the same reasons everything is (sickeningly) referred to as a 'franchise' these days, to keep their options open in case they ever want to do more of it.


I didn't say why, I said how, but I do agree with you about the franchise bit. The question is, how much is too much? How many incarnations of Stargate are the fans willing to take?



Then perhaps you should not attempt use it, lest you appear foolish.


Perhaps you shouldn't be so condescending simply because not everyone is versed in dramatic terminology. I apologise for unknowingly misusing it.

ShadowMaat
January 18th, 2007, 08:35 PM
I can agree to that aswell... but I don't think TPTB thought that killing Carson was going to boost the ratings. They obviously did it for reasons unknown to any of us...
I, too, agree that killing off characters as a gimmick/ratings boost/whatever is irritating. And Ace, I'd wager that the reason they killed off Carson was so that they could bring in a Hot Chick to replace him. More eye candy means more ratings in their book. Or someone's book, anyway.

However, while I question their reasons for killing Carson I thought the method was wonderful (or as wonderful as tragedy can be). And while I'm sorry to see him go... I kinda get the feeling TPTB didn't know what to do with him anyway. They made him a lead character, but to what purpose? He sure didn't look as if he was getting lots more development or storylines. So...?

I prefer characters who are actually allowed to DO something and who are allowed to be more than a caricature, a plot device, a mobile prop or an exposition machine. ...Of course, that would eliminate 90% of the cast, but that's probably why I'm not a regular viewer any more. :D Anyway, as far as Carson goes, while I know a lot of fans are happy with any amount of a favored character they can get, I prefer some substance. And if I can't get substance, well, I'd rather not see the actor wasted in a weak role.

Paul gave it everything he had, I'm sure, but I don't think TPTB returned the favor. If Carson getting killed off means that Paul can now get better roles in productions that will actually use him to the fullest extent, I say more power to him! It's Atlantis's loss if TPTB can't bestir themselves to come up with quality material.

I loved the insights we got into Carson in this ep and it's a shame that it has to end here, but great character-defining pieces like Sunday are the exception to the rule rather than the rule itself. We should probably count ourselves lucky we got anything at all and bless whatever almighty forces allowed Martin to go ahead with this story when it was initially blocked.

I shudder to think how, say, Joe Mallozzi might have handled Carson's departure. Probably nibbled to death by lemmings while Shep and McKay were busy flirting with a scantily-clad native girl in the next room. ;)

ToasterOnFire
January 18th, 2007, 08:48 PM
I shudder to think how, say, Joe Mallozzi might have handled Carson's departure. Probably nibbled to death by lemmings while Shep and McKay were busy flirting with a scantily-clad native girl in the next room. ;)
Ah yes, Monty Pyton comes to mind:

"Look, that lemming's got a vicious streak a mile wide! It's a killer!"
"Get stuffed!"
"He'll do you up a treat, mate."
"Oh, yeah?"
"You mangy Scots git!"
"I'm warning you!"
"What's he do, nibble your bum?"
"He's got huge, sharp-- eh-- he can leap about-- look at the bones!"

:D

ShoDar
January 18th, 2007, 09:06 PM
:lol: Or Ronon.. ;)
Nah...Ronon belongs to McKay ;)



You need to look up the meaning of plot hole. A general comment by a producer about people dying in sci-fi does not a plothole make.

A character dying is not a plot hole.

I doubt many people watched Carson dying and though 'How are they going to write him back in next week? That'll be difficult."

Agreed.



Obviously not next week. Duh. TPTB stated that he would be "recurring" in season four. Therefore, I'm wondering how they'll do it.


Where/when did they say this? I just tried to find it on the savecarson site and all I could find was a vague "maybe" about how nobody is ever really dead. What that implies to me is that they don't want to say for sure in case they want to do something with it, but it doesn't seem to imply at all that Carson will be recurring in S4.

Copernicus
January 18th, 2007, 09:22 PM
I for one do not see why Carson should be mourned, he caused the deaths of those bomb technicians with his negligence. He should've obeyed orders and only one person would've died. Bad writing or what, what a dumb, unnecessary death.
That one person was his patient, however. Doctors think differently than soldiers.

jtjaforever
January 18th, 2007, 09:53 PM
Never posted in this thread before but I just had to comment on what a wonderful ep I thought this was. I just watched it again for maybe the fourth/fifth-who knows:o . Anyway, the performances of all was beyond outstanding. The emotional charge of losing a *family* member so suddenly and then you realize so deeply loved(Rodney's admission of his closeness to Carson). I have not been following this full thread, therefore what I have to say will likely be less bias as a result(at least I hope so - LOL). I love the character of Carson and was sad that this had to happen yet I hold out the fact that like soaps in SciFi no one stays dead forever(okay, I'm stretching, but I can wish).

I briefly read in some post about Carson spending his *off* day essentially alone. As a writer, the scenario is a classic plot device, but in real life the possiblities of the events playing out as they did is very real. McKay cancelled at the last minute. Others were already engaged in activities, like Zelenka & Lorne. I think as Lorne said had he caught him earlier in the day he would not have hestitated to go, the same w/Zelenka. When Carson relieves the other doctor because of her headaches she calls him a *lifesaver* , Elizabeth referred to him as a *healer* - that is what Carson was. He spent his day doing what he loved and did best. I don't think he would have had it any other way(remember his fear in Phantoms).

As for the other performances as I said - all outstanding. It was nice to see the expedition as *people* not just expedition members. It was also good to see Weir out of her office and interacting as a *woman* not just the *boss*. It was also a nice glimpse into a friendship moment between Liz/Teyla when she reveal why she was cancelling on lunch. I think that scene also helps to show that Liz/Teyla are possibly closer than many believe. It is only a hour long show so only so much can be highlighted in that time, but I liked this little peek into their *girl*ship;) , it would be nice to expound on that more because these two women have so much in common.

I will finish this by saying I love this show and this ep in particular because I love the aspect of how people can come together and care deeply for each other and a worthwhile cause despite their differences. It was what drew me to FS, it is what draws me to SGA. S3 has had it low moments granted but by far it has been excellent in showcasing the growing Atlantis *family* and I hope it continues as such. One of my fav lines from FS was Zhaan commenting about how the crew of Moya had become her family of sorts. JC's reply was "yeah, a Jerry Springer kinda family, but family none the less" or something along those lines - LOL. I said that to said this the Atlantis family is sometimes dysfunctional, but it *is* becoming family and w/eps like this I think the series will do well into S4.

Okay, essay done. Thanks for listening.

AlphaBlu
January 18th, 2007, 11:30 PM
The lemming thing is getting old. Mallozzi's comments about the fandom, whilst as abrupt as always, were true. Too many people cry out about stuff they know nothing about - exactly the point I made in my earlier post.

BYE

Jenner8675309
January 18th, 2007, 11:54 PM
The lemming thing is getting old. Mallozzi's comments about the fandom, whilst as abrupt as always, were true. Too many people cry out about stuff they know nothing about - exactly the point I made in my earlier post.

BYE

Eh, everyone is just having fun with it. It started out pretty rabid, but now its all about humor and there is alot of self-mocking in the thread. Its still pretty humorous to some. And in the grand scope of all of Stargate fandowm worldwide (what, millions?) its a drop in the ocean. But if it bothers you, stay away from the thread. :)

Regarding the ep., I thought it could have used some work. Yeah it was good and it was great to see the interactions, but I thought the Weir and whats-his-name stuff was akward. And even though it was nice to see Weir and Teyla "girl talk", it really wasn't much. But there were quite a few "little things" I loved - the chess scene, Beckett "reeling" McKay in, Beckett being told "shut up" by Weir after saying she "Smells good too.." etc etc. Those were real interactions that most of us have had with good friends - acting silly, teasing or being beaten badly at a game. Those small things were priceless.

BYE

Psyku
January 19th, 2007, 01:22 AM
found the ep kind of a mix between doctor frasier's death and when daniel wen't beyond. oooh well

not a bad ep just a tad bit to fast for me. well the writers are getthing a bit lazy .

and if to where bring him back! then i wan't a Damn good plot twist.(edit)

hmmm perhaps he was already an acient and just messed with us all:beckett:

Haliyah
January 19th, 2007, 01:24 AM
Where/when did they say this? I just tried to find it on the savecarson site and all I could find was a vague "maybe" about how nobody is ever really dead. What that implies to me is that they don't want to say for sure in case they want to do something with it, but it doesn't seem to imply at all that Carson will be recurring in S4.


It was in an interview that David Hewlett gave to somebody...I'll see if I can find it.

Psyku
January 19th, 2007, 02:09 AM
haven't read all the pages of this topic but did anyone notice. through out the whole episode that beckett was more confident then he usually is ?

Alipeeps
January 19th, 2007, 02:21 AM
Obviously not next week. Duh. TPTB stated that he would be "recurring" in season four. Therefore, I'm wondering how they'll do it.

As for "plot hole," I didn't even know that was an actual term.



Where/when did they say this? I just tried to find it on the savecarson site and all I could find was a vague "maybe" about how nobody is ever really dead. What that implies to me is that they don't want to say for sure in case they want to do something with it, but it doesn't seem to imply at all that Carson will be recurring in S4.

TPTB never said that Carson would be recurring. In response to the rumours about Paul leaving the show, they eventually confirmed that Carson would "disappear" towards the end of Season 3 and mentioned that they might bring Paul back (note, Paul - not Carson) at some point, maybe as a different character.

To the best of my knowledge, there has never been any official mention of Carson becoming a recurring character. I suspect all the various issues of Carson's death and Weir' becoming recurring etc etc are getting mixed up into one big overall concept.

caty
January 19th, 2007, 03:52 AM
haven't read all the pages of this topic but did anyone notice. through out the whole episode that beckett was more confident then he usually is ?

He seemed more outgoing, that's what I'd say.. He never came across to me as a shy person. He is just always surrounded by so many geniuses who come up with the most intelligent ideas to save the day. Because of that and because of the fact that he doesn't understand a lot of the technobabble, he just seems self-concious sometimes.
We have seen in episodes like 'The Eye' (when he was mad at Ford) that he can be quite outgoing when he wants to be.

And in Sunday, we saw off duty Carson for the first time.

Just makes me all the more sad because now we know what a nice guy he really is (I found his conversation with Weir so cute and he was so nice to everybody despite the fact that non of them wanted to go fishing with him)...

Anise76
January 19th, 2007, 04:12 AM
Except for one glaring problem:

We don't know the manner in which it happened.

That has not been revealed, and may never be revealed. Do we know if it was an amicable departure, something caused due to friction? We don't know.

What we DO know from Paul himself is that he didn't want to go, and has asked fans to keep campaigning to bring him back. He released an official statement on www.paulmcgillion.com a few days ago.


Furthermore I hardly think they just killed a main cast member just for the sake of a single episode. It's not like they just met in the writing room and went:

"Ok, this week I want to kill... hmm... Carson! Yeah! I'll invent an exploding tuna-"
"Make it an exploding tuma, then Carson can remove it and boom!"
"Ok, an exploding tuma. That's cool."
"Excellent work. Next week we'll kill Weir."

This thing was probably in the works for quite a while, and they needed a way to write it into the show, so they took Gero's 'Sunday' concept, ie. the day where nothing much happened, and that became the story.

Isn't that surmising every bit as much as the pro-Carson members of this forum are? Except you are almost writing it as fact. Which it is not - it is your hypothesis, and yours alone.


For starters, you cannot claim it was an 'arbitrary' decision, so don't. We do not know why it happened, so lose the typical fandom conspiracy nonsense.

And if you lose the condescending, sarcastic and inflammatory tone of your posts, people might find it a little easier to take you more seriously. :)


And I've already had my fav character leave a show - Daniel on SG-1. Granted MS, chose to leave, but I didn't mind him going. His presence (or lack thereof) make Season 6 a better Season. And his three appearences were better than all his appearences in the Season beforehand.

Well, there we go - the exact OPPOSITE of the situation here. MS QUIT - Paul did not. Paul has made it widely known that he wanted to stay, and would love to come back... And I guess we shall agree to differ about Daniel missing from season 6 improving it - I felt it was one of the weakest seasons of SG-1.


There's a difference between a character meaning a lot to someone, and inventing non-existant 'plot holes' and decrying everyone about the decision to get rid of him. It's even worse to demand he come back.

So no-one has the right to get upset about the decision to axe a character? I guess you don't live in a world where free speech is encouraged. :)


There's passionate, then there's obsessive.

Then there's reasonable, and there's offensive. That last statement was offensive. Who are YOU to lay out the limits of where passionate borders on obsessive? Obviously, there's nothing in your life that you care enough about to want to make a difference. I APPLAUD those who have the courage to speak out, whether it's about a character on a TV show, or larger issues - you'll find they are usually the same people having the courage to speak out AT ALL, instead of muttering about "obsessees" and not having the courage to do anything themselves.


That decision will help the show. They've done nothing with Weir, just like with Ford. Her being reoccuring will mean the writers won't have to try to find reasons to put her in the show, much like how O'Neill becoming the general of the base helped free up the stories for SG-1 as they weren't tied to his screen time.

Again, I disagree strongly with you on this point. I feel it would have been a MUCH better decision to choose to develop the existing characters, and therefore build on an already strong fanbase rather than pissing off a large portion of this fanbase just to try to attract SG-1 and Firefly fans. A lot of them have already stated they won't watch SGA simply for AT and Jewel - they would rather see then back in their own respective shows...

Bye bye...