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GateWorld
September 8th, 2006, 07:12 PM
<DIV ALIGN="center"><TABLE WIDTH="450" BORDER="0" CELLSPACING="0" CELLPADDING="7"><TR><TD><DIV ALIGN="left"><FONT FACE="Verdana, Arial, san-serif" SIZE="2" COLOR="#000000"><A HREF="http://www.gateworld.net/atlantis/s3/309.shtml"><IMG SRC="http://www.gateworld.net/atlantis/graphics/309.jpg" WIDTH="160" HEIGHT="120" ALIGN="right" HSPACE="10" VSPACE="2" BORDER="0" STYLE="border: 1px black solid" ALT="Visit the Episode Guide"></A><FONT SIZE="1" COLOR="#888888">ATLANTIS SEASON THREE</FONT>
<FONT SIZE="4"><A HREF="http://www.gateworld.net/atlantis/s3/309.shtml" STYLE="text-decoration: none">PHANTOMS</A></FONT>
<FONT SIZE="1">EPISODE NUMBER - 309</FONT>
<IMG SRC="/images/clear.gif" WIDTH="1" HEIGHT="10" ALT="">
Sheppard and Ronon are influenced by a mind-altering device created by the Wraith while on a mission to rescue a lost team.

<FONT SIZE="1" COLOR="#888888"><B><A HREF="http://www.gateworld.net/atlantis/s3/309.shtml">VISIT THE EPISODE GUIDE ></A></B>
SPOILERS! PHOTOS! AND MORE!</FONT></FONT></DIV></TD></TR></TABLE></DIV>

Descent
September 15th, 2006, 08:02 PM
I did like this episode but it was a bit of a mixed bag. This story is nothing new but I think it was still worthwhile. Twas freaky watching everyone lose it.

7/10 from me.

It gets bonus points for giving great stuff to both Carson and Teyla for once and some long awaited backstory for Sheppard. :sheppard:

This is turning out to be a great season for Atlantis, IMHO.

NowIWillDestroyAbydos
September 15th, 2006, 08:03 PM
Good episode, "You shot Me!!!," Shep shot Rodney, awesome. Rodney's having a bad year, getting shot in the ass in Sateda and getting shot in this ep by Shep, damn does that suck for him.

Good to see the Kull Warriors again.

I really can't wait for next week's Summer Finale

rarocks24
September 15th, 2006, 08:03 PM
Mckay got shot....again! :D

siXbrownSnakes2
September 15th, 2006, 08:05 PM
I had mixed feelings about the episode coming into these week because there was next to nothing known about it. There were very few spoilers anywhere I looked.

The idea of the episode itself was okay. The drama was pretty tense throughout and the Shep backstory, as unfufilling of the promises as it was, was better than nothing I suppose. It kind of reminded me of "Shadow Play". That episode was supposed to be the turning point for Jonas but turned out to be a party bag full of empty wrappers.

The directing of the episode was great, props to Martin, another fantastically shot ep.

I liked last week's a lot more.

The Return looks great.

rarocks24
September 15th, 2006, 08:07 PM
Sheppard backstory...finally!:D

It was also Teyla that got to see his breakdown. This season has been filled with Shep/Teyla scenes.

coolove
September 15th, 2006, 08:07 PM
This episode reminded me too much of Paradise Lost but I did enjoy the last half of the hour when Sheppard thought he was in Afghanistan. Not bad.

sharkface217
September 15th, 2006, 08:08 PM
Ok, I really liked this episode.... I give it a good 8/10. The Sheppard backstory was quite entertaining. Seeing Carson lose it was actually pretty neat, but I honestly didn't see the thing whole "Sarge is dead, man" thing coming.


8/10

TheGreatLordGeorge
September 15th, 2006, 08:08 PM
I loved the cinematography of this episode. Well written piece, 5 stars

Descent
September 15th, 2006, 08:08 PM
I liked the Shep/Teyla scenes. I'm really glad they finally gave Rachel some meaty material in this episode. Its been awhile since shes been able to flex her acting muscles.

rarocks24
September 15th, 2006, 08:10 PM
I liked the Shep/Teyla scenes. I'm really glad they finally gave Rachel some meaty material in this episode. Its been awhile since shes been able to flex her acting muscles.

She didn't have as many scenes as I would have liked. The entire episode centered really around Carson and Sheppard. Teyla was pretty much listening to Shep's ramblings and trying to convince him that everything he's seeing isn't real.

Ironic
September 15th, 2006, 08:10 PM
Besides "Irrisistable," this season has kicked ass!

Tonight's episode even beat Sateda! OMG, WAS TEYLA AWESOME! Don't have time for a review yet, but I'd just like to take this moment to say . . . Squee, baby. Very squee!

*contemplating Top Five episodes of this season*

1.) Real World
2.) Common Ground
3.) Phantoms
4.) Sateda
5.) Progeny

I repeat, this season has kicked ass! And next week's episode looks like it could be like "The Storm/The Eye," personally my favorite Atlantis episodes ever.

Merlin7
September 15th, 2006, 08:11 PM
Well...that was a great big HONKIN disappointment. Sheppard backstory? Where? I already knew he went back for someone against orders. And I had figured out the angst of it being the guy didn't make it back in season one. So...waste of time. No Shep whump. No Ronon and Shep confrontation as in FIGHTING and BLOOD between them and cripes. Everyone gets shot BUT Sheppard? Blech.

Xfiles did this SL way WAY better.

rarocks24
September 15th, 2006, 08:11 PM
Besides "Irrisistable," this season has kicked ass!

Tonight's episode even beat Sateda! OMG, WAS TEYLA AWESOME! Don't have time for a review yet, but I'd just like to take this moment to say . . . Squee, baby. Very squee!

*contemplating Top Five episodes of this season*

1.) Real World
2.) Common Ground
3.) Phantoms
4.) Sateda
5.) Progeny

I repeat, this season has kicked ass!

One of the best, but I think it ties Sateda. It was definitely a lot better than I thought it was going to be.

Annubis' hitman
September 15th, 2006, 08:12 PM
Good episode.

Ill give it a 8.5/10

Good points-
Sheps backstory
Everyone going nuts was cool to see
Beckett
Shep/Teyla scences

It was a good episode but definately not the seasons best.

rarocks24
September 15th, 2006, 08:13 PM
Well...that was a great big HONKIN disappointment. Sheppard backstory? Where? I already knew he went back for someone against orders. And I had figured out the angst of it being the guy didn't make it back in season one. So...waste of time. No Shep whump. No Ronon and Shep confrontation as in FIGHTING and BLOOD between them and cripes. Everyone gets shot BUT Sheppard? Blech.

Xfiles did this SL way WAY better.

It perhaps would have been better if there were more scenes between Shep and his friend. Instead, there wasn't. It would have done a lot better had it been vignettes instead of how it was. Either way, this episode was still good.

Infernorhythm
September 15th, 2006, 08:13 PM
10/10.

I didn't think they could top Sateda or Common Ground, but this came close. Everything about this episode was perfect. The camera work was great, with some tight closeups on Crazy-Shep and Crazy-Ronan, the Blair-Witch style forest scenes, and a great in scenary with the Afghanistan fight scenes. The way each character started hallucinating was great. I figured out the Ronan and Shep ones easily, but I was pretty close on the Rodney ones. It was the Beckett scenes that really got me. When we found out that Sgt. was really dead: shocker.

Major kudos go out to the fight choriographer. This was as good as in Sateda, and without the annoying slow-mo. True, it didn't top Ronan's infared Wraith Goggles fight, but when Leonard ambushed them, to the Ronan/Sheppard fight, and even the scene where Rodney was shot (that made me jump) were all wonderful.

Favorite parts:
-Zelenka. He rules.

-The dead soldier reveal. That shocked me as much as Beckett.

-The arrow-in-Rodney's-butt reference. Nice.

-The flashbacks. You know, I'm wondering how much of that was true.

-Teyla getting a good bit of dialogue.

-Kull Warriors. Didn't see that coming. Leonard, man, must suck to be him.

-The single best line of the episode, the season, and probably the series: "I'm sorry for shooting everybody."

Again, perfect. 10/10.

Descent
September 15th, 2006, 08:13 PM
I repeat, this season has kicked ass! And next week's episode looks like it could be like "The Storm/The Eye," personally my favorite Atlantis episodes ever.

I agree, this has been Atlantis' best season yet. The show is able to stand on its own legs finally. Its such a breath of fresh air after how S2 turned out.

rarocks24
September 15th, 2006, 08:14 PM
Good episode.

Ill give it a 8.5/10

Good points-
Sheps backstory
Everyone going nuts was cool to see
Beckett
Shep/Teyla scences

It was a good episode but definately not the seasons best.

Season's best would have to be, in my mind, Sateda. No Man's Land a close second with this episode a third. It doesn't really tie like I said it does, but then again, the excitement. :)

Really, I think this episode was one of the best, but it wasn't the best.

prion
September 15th, 2006, 08:15 PM
Okay, I had the sneaking suspicion Shep woudln't get shot because well, he was up against Ronon and that weapon is lethal! However... Shep shot ROdney! Just shot him! Aieee... if that's not good for some major league angst/guilt in a tag, I don't know what is, plus reliving the failure of a botched rescue mission which basically tanked his career.

Poor Carson - people dead, not dead, dead again. Not to mention COVERING the live body thinking he was a corpse. Talk about a medical disaster...And the one soldier died and went into rigor mortis and Beckett was so into the 'hallucination' that he didn't even see it happen, which is probably going to give him nightmares.

And Teyla got shot and heck, she actually saved the day, even though Rodney was 99% done with doing it until he snapped.

Hm, don't see how Hagan survived all that but well, this is scifi and Beckett's a damned good doctor, and, er, still don't know how the guy survive.

Gotta admit, I love how they use the close-up lens on Sheppard when he was going off into la-la land of Afghanistan. It's sort of a classic camera angle used since the B&W tv days but I still love it.

And we FINALLY, finally got some backstory on his 'black mark' - that despite his best heroic efforts, the men he went after died. I was wondering about that

Descent
September 15th, 2006, 08:16 PM
I loved how Teyla *gasp* played an important part finally, FINALLY!

Ronon laughing at Mckay was a great touch as well.

lirenel
September 15th, 2006, 08:17 PM
This was an awesome ep! I know things like this have probably been done before on SG-1, but I have a very faulty memory so I can't remember ever seeing an ep like this, which makes it more enjoyable for me.

The bad: Didn't like the poor red-shirts dying. I have a very hard time watching war movies with soldiers being killed, probably becuase it's an all too real reality in our time. It's a good story, but sad.

Also, I didn't really feel Ronon's hallucinations. maybe because they took place on that planet, but I wasn't getting anything from it.

The good:
:sheppard: Sheppard- finally, we have backstory! That was so sad about his friend, but it was pretty cool to see him in his pre-stargate days. JF did a very good job acting crazy.

:ronan: Ronon- like I said before, I didn't really feel his hallucinations, but I like how he was seeing things that could have been there. It was a nice lead in. Plus his laughter at the end, and "he shot me too!"

:beckett: Carson- I felt so bad for him! It must be awful for a doctor to not know if he's saving or harming someone. And I can't imagine how he feels knowing he could have saved that one man if he hadn't hallucinated him being alright. I was a little confused when the hallucination told him to leave and get away from Rodney. Were the hallucinations sentient or something? Did it somehow know that Rodney and Carson might be able to stop the machine together?

:teyla: Teyla- I'm so glad she got an actual part! RL really showed how frustrated Teyla was when Sheppard wouldn't listen to her and was trying to kill the rest of her team. And the part when she's looking at McKay's work and says "Rodney, you were almost there, why did you stop?!" was almost heart-breaking. She sounded close to tears. I can imagine she needs a little time with her team to get over all that.

:mckay: Rodney- Wonderful, wonderful. Thank goodness this time he wasn't just the comic relief. He had a few lines, and the flinging himself out of the cave was a little overdramatic, but in all he was just the frustrated scientist we all know and love. Also I thought it was interesting how his hallucination resembled what happened in Trinity with the 'weapon' overloading to explode. Some lingering fears perhaps?. And I actually gasped outloud when Sheppard shot him! Finally some whump that isn't made fun of!


All in all, I'd rate this a 9.5/10. I think I may try and watch it again at 12 even though I have to get up early tomorrow. :S

coolove
September 15th, 2006, 08:18 PM
Well...that was a great big HONKIN disappointment. Sheppard backstory? Where? I already knew he went back for someone against orders. And I had figured out the angst of it being the guy didn't make it back in season one. So...waste of time. No Shep whump. No Ronon and Shep confrontation as in FIGHTING and BLOOD between them and cripes. Everyone gets shot BUT Sheppard? Blech.

Xfiles did this SL way WAY better.

Yeah, I wouldn't call it backstory either. They just showed us what we already knew. I thought it nice to actually see it but it didn't add anything.

TattertotLove
September 15th, 2006, 08:19 PM
Great episode! It was good to see Shepps background but I read somewhere that his background was a little different. Like in this episode he saved one guy in the war when I read that he saved two. Oh well.
I was having so much fun predicting everything that was happening. I can't wait to see this episode agian tonight.
Poor Teyla got caught up in the nut case episode. She held up well though.

Anyone know why they didn't air the code tonight? Last week Sci-Fi was having some problems with the website so I'm thinking that's part of the problem.

Great Episode! :)

DANIquinn
September 15th, 2006, 08:20 PM
Mixed feelings about this episode, though I think it really came together in the last 10 minutes or so with all that explosive tension. So I'd give it a 7/10. Great to see a lot of Beckett given he was completely missing in the last episode. And Teyla...I have to wonder why see wasn't affected by the generator. Probably something to do with her Wraith DNA. Anyway, overall a decent episode.

rarocks24
September 15th, 2006, 08:20 PM
Great episode! It was good to see Shepps background but I read somewhere that his background was a little different. Like in this episode he saved one guy in the war when I read that he saved two. Oh well.
I was having so much fun predicting everything that was happening. I can't wait to see this episode agian tonight.
Poor Teyla got caught up in the nut case episode. She held up well though.

Anyone know why they didn't air the code tonight? Last week Sci-Fi was having some problems with the website so I'm thinking that's part of the problem.

Great Episode! :)

Well, it was a flashback. Perhaps Sheppard didn't encounter the other guy until later? And BTW, Teyla did change the course of the hallucination.

Descent
September 15th, 2006, 08:21 PM
And Teyla...I have to wonder why see wasn't affected by the generator. Probably something to do with her Wraith DNA.

Yes, this was pointed out when Shep and her first found Edward's hut.

vaberella
September 15th, 2006, 08:27 PM
UNRATEABLE

Okay so I couldn't come up with a viable rating. What do I say, lots of action, finally a bit of John's backstory. Emotionally driven moments, lots of dead bodies...it's like Blair Witch + Predator + Merc battle. Overall great ep, I think the *Holy Sh*t* moments were what kept me at the edge of my seat. John was shooting at everyone but Teyla. But that says a lot. He even shot Rodney, poor guy---says a lot about how high in esteem Teyla is...or it could just say it was handy she got shot at the time.

I was a bit boggled when I saw a moment of zombies added to things like this, but hey it was effective.

So let's hit it by character:

:sheppard33: JF was bloody great, it was a great moment for him, his facial expressions and his actiosn were believable and realistic. I liked that, and I liked where we see 'we never leave people behind' it was great to see that.

:teyla25: It was weird, its' like Teyla and that guy...so I don't know how to really rate it. I did think she was frustrated (had to correct that misspelling)..and I have to say for a woman who got shot, she sucked up the pain very well. That poor Marine who died was crying like crazy. And the way she fought off the unconciousness...respect!! Then I also liked how she was able to sort of break through John's haze enough to get the job done. Not only that, it says a lot that she was the one he sort of confided too, once again!! And she saw him at his worst and sort of helped him through relatively. Non-judgemental but supportive coolness. Personally, I think she dealt well with a crazy!!


:mckayanime07: My man lost his damn mind. I don't know what to say, he was funny when he got shot. Plus when he was dealing with Beckett, not to much to add.

:ronananime16: He went chasing after Donner and Blitzen (i.e. Teyla/John who looked like wraith). It was just funny calling the wraith Donner and Blitzen..but other than that..he gets shot again, not sure he was cool.

:beckett03: He was the star of the ep...he's a doctor had an emotional moment, at least Kagan (black Marine?) is still alive. He needs a thunk thread, did a good job poor guy. Hmmmm...I liked Beckett a lot, he did his duty as a doctor, he came across as affected perfectly and the termoil was great. Not only that I got to saw pecs and muscles..fantastic.


:weiranime42: Not much to say there, she was hovering around doing her duty as leader worried about her elite team out there and with no response which happens to hold the head doctor, head scientist, and head military---what a disaster. But I can see her worried. One question...what's up with the musckrat on her head?! I was a bit distracted by it when I saw the hair. My sis called it a mullet, others said a bad weave...I think her curling iron broke down before she could finish.

:zelenka: He was much like Weir...hovering, he should have ripped the muskrat off of Weir's neck. :D

It's so funny!! Her hair was great just for the distraction. Reminds me of Shep's hair in Inferno...I can't handle hair distractions...Teyla had one of those, think it was in Sateda it was like all sexy and stuff!! Ronon had his own in Runner...nice hair!! Long live hair! :D


I mean the action was great, the scenes were great...everythng was edge of the scene, I mean I saw it was 10:53, and I literally only thought 30 minutes went by in the ep. It was more of an ep for Beckett and Teyla overall, with added John. I think they're the two that stood out for me, in seeing how they deal in situations and their reactions and their interactions with others...more so Teyla and John and McKay (she deciphered McKay's mumbo jumbo...Respect!)

It was great, but just not worth rating it was that good. It's just unrateable.

Great writing by Binder, but he always produces eps I like and he definitely likes the characters because he managed to sucessfully give everyone some kind of play and not more than others in this ep. It was extremely well balanced, unlike Common Ground and for that it gets far more Kudos than CG. I have no clue why not all the writers are able to sucessfully give all the characters some kind of action, even minute. I liked this ep and I can't wait for some new eps.


UNRATEABLE


:teylaanime03: in a :mckayanime09::sheppard28:
I think she's lovin' it!!

ToasterOnFire
September 15th, 2006, 08:32 PM
Solid ep. I knew that the team was going to hallucinate so no surprise there, but it kept my interest and I was happy to see more of Teyla and Carson.


-Shep did say that Teyla's wraith DNA might protect her from the "machine", is that what we're supposed to assume did happen? I enjoyed seeing her as the voice of reason while the guys ran around shooting each other. It carrying over her role in other eps like Allies.

-Once again, TPTB make it seem like Elizabeth just waits around Atlantis until the team returns. Come on, couldn't Zelenka interrupt her in the middle of one of her many meetings or something?

-Did Rodney say he had an arrow in his ass? I wasn't aware that Stargate used that term. :D

-Ah Rodney, back to snarking and being pissy after a chance for some growth post-M&MM. Still, his hand on Carson's shoulder was quite touching. And I loved his flying leap to avoid the explosion that...never happened. :D

-I also don't know how Hagan survived, especially since Beckett picked him up and carried him. That's practically a death sentence for someone with so recent and significant chest wounds.

-On that note, there's no way that Leonard or whoever would blow himself up with a grenade and not hurl...bits everywhere.

-What was the military guy's name who Beckett thought was helping him? I thought he was great, too bad he had to be killed off.

-When the team watched the camera replay (blatant Sony placement!), I immediately thought of the Blair Witch Project. Thankfully snot-free this time.


Did anyone catch the trailer for the mid season finale? And would they be so kind as to post it somewhere? Way too many screenshots way too fast - I'd like to slow things down. :)

vaberella
September 15th, 2006, 08:32 PM
Mixed feelings about this episode, though I think it really came together in the last 10 minutes or so with all that explosive tension. So I'd give it a 7/10. Great to see a lot of Beckett given he was completely missing in the last episode. And Teyla...I have to wonder why see wasn't affected by the generator. Probably something to do with her Wraith DNA. Anyway, overall a decent episode.
Not much to wonder about, check back to Rising II, she's unaffected by wraith tech!! It was established in that ep. If Wraith are unaffected she would be by it. So it is safe to assume because of her Wraith DNA---I thought The Gift clarified that...?!

Ace
September 15th, 2006, 08:32 PM
Sheppard's background just gets more and more confusing... especially with this episode!

From Rising Part I:

O'NEILL: You know, I checked into his record.

WEIR: I know about the whole supposed black mark in Afghanistan. He was trying to save the lives of three servicemen.

O'NEILL: Disobeying a direct order in the process.

From Home:

DEX: Our boys were pinned down, so Hot Shot here takes his chopper right over this bridge ...

MITCH: ... and we're supposed to follow him.

DEX: Well, there's no way I'm flying a Black Hawk over a bridge with enemy tanks on it.

SHEPPARD: Yeah, that was, uh, priceless. (He smiles.)

DEX: But, uh, we got that Special Ops team outta there, didn't we, Shep?

SHEPPARD: Yes, we did.

------------------

However in this episode we find out that he went in alone without Dex & Mitch as backup. We also find out that the Special Ops team which since the beginning has consisted of three servicemen but is infact only 1 person. And since Season 1 Sheppard got the three servicemen back safely, they did not die!

Which is why I have always supposed he wasn't court martialed as soon as he got back. But instead we find out that the 1 person he went back for he didn't get bring back alive.

HUGE PLOT HOLE... Sheppard shouldn't have even been in the military after that! If he had brought back three servicemen alive after disobeying an order not to go, then I could see the military giving him some leeway and just banishing him to the Antartic.

I don't know... I was expecting something alot better from the writers on Sheppard's behalf.

Ace

P.S. Also how did the guy with the shoulder wound end up dying but the guy with a bullet lodged in his intenstines end up living and making it "out of the woods" by the end of the episode!! WHAT?!? That makes absolutely no sense!!

FoolishPleasure
September 15th, 2006, 08:35 PM
This episode had good points and bad points.

First, it was just a reworking of SG1's old "Paradise Lost" where O'Neill and Maybourne find dead bodies of a race that killed each other off, then the two of them start hallucinating and trying to kill each other. At least they made enough changes this time to make it half way different from the original (unlike "Progeny", which was a total SG1 clone).

I really enjoyed the Carson scenes, especially since we don't see enough of him as it is, and McKay trying to "fix" the contraption.

Got awfully tired of Teyla repeating her few lines of the night, "John. .JOHN. .this isn't REAL!". Um, how many times did she say that? At least she got to save the day, which is one of the few things the writers have let her do all season. And how many times did Sheppard change the dressing on her wound? Um, like five or six? And how many scenes did we have showing Ronon just running around the woods? *Yawn* It didn't get interesting until Ronon thought Sheppard was a Wraith dragging Teyla away, and that was towards the end!

The weakest part was the so-called Sheppard "character building" flashback. Honestly, I still know nothing about the man. We already knew he got in trouble for trying to rescue a downed team. Just what did we learn about him that was new? Poorly done, IMO.

As for those who thought this was going to be the great Sheppard/Teyla romance thing. Um, Sheppard thought she was a GUY through most of the episode. :rolleyes:

This was just "meh" for me. Not nearly as interesting or emotionally charged as SG1 before it (as we lost one of my fav recurring characters). I'd be excited about next week, but we have. . .uh, Replicators. At least we get RDA. ;)

gambit
September 15th, 2006, 08:36 PM
Sheppard's background just gets more and more confusing... especially with this episode!

From Rising Part I:

O'NEILL: You know, I checked into his record.

WEIR: I know about the whole supposed black mark in Afghanistan. He was trying to save the lives of three servicemen.

O'NEILL: Disobeying a direct order in the process.

From Home:

DEX: Our boys were pinned down, so Hot Shot here takes his chopper right over this bridge ...

MITCH: ... and we're supposed to follow him.

DEX: Well, there's no way I'm flying a Black Hawk over a bridge with enemy tanks on it.

SHEPPARD: Yeah, that was, uh, priceless. (He smiles.)

DEX: But, uh, we got that Special Ops team outta there, didn't we, Shep?

SHEPPARD: Yes, we did.

------------------

However in this episode we find out that he went in alone without Dex & Mitch as backup. We also find out that the Special Ops team which since the beginning has consisted of three servicemen is infact only 1 person. And since Season 1 Sheppard got the three servicemen back safely...

Which is why I have always supposed he wasn't court martialed as soon as he got back. But instead we find out that the 1 person he went back for he didn't get bring back alive.

HUGE PLOT HOLE... Sheppard shouldn't have even been in the military after that! If he had brought back three servicemen alive after disobeying an order not to go, then I could see the military giving him some leeway and just banishing him to the Antartic.

I don't know... I was expecting something alot better from the writers on Sheppard's behalf.

Ace

I don't believe the whole Mitch and Dex mission was THE mission that got him in trouble. It never said it was, you honestly think he only went on one mission throughout his career?

Sparky13
September 15th, 2006, 08:36 PM
I'm a little breathless. I really loved this episode. From the second the DHD exploded, things just ramped up and I really appreciate MW's direction, how he kept up the pace.

I'll let everyone else go into the details of what they liked or didn't. I'll just be brief and say that everyone's freak-out rocked, especially Beckett's because it was so refreshingly creepy. I would have figured that John and Ronon would end up shooting at each other because that's, you know, what they're all about. But Beckett and the dead/not dead/dead/not dead...oh, I just loved that. And because it was mostly hallucination, I'll forgive that CPR was used to revive a trauma code, which, you know, is simply not going to happen, even if you use epi. (Sorry. EMT, here.)

Also, Rodney shot--give me a heart attack, why don't cha? Thank God he survived a point-blank with a P90. Geez, I barely survived watching it.

I'm not much into back story, in terms of Sheppard's military experience. I read earlier on this thread that the desert scenes didn't fill in Sheppard's back story much. I hear that. However, in terms of what the Afghanistan scenario was supposed to show about Sheppard's mindset while he's shooting his close friends, it really worked well.

The Sparkster
iamrighthere.livejournal.com

emotionallydisturbed
September 15th, 2006, 08:42 PM
As for those who thought this was going to be the great Sheppard/Teyla romance thing. Um, Sheppard thought she was a GUY through most of the episode. :rolleyes:

LOL! If those moments with Sheppard and Teyla were meant to promote ship, than I have to say by that logic, more than anything, it would prove John Sheppard was gay. :P

Seriously, didn't I hear some while ago that there was suppose to be this huge S/T shippy scene in this episode? Uh, were was that? When she said "John" for the hundreth time in the episode?

(Yes, I don't want ship on my Atlantis. So glad the PTB aren't going that route with these types of episodes.)

caty
September 15th, 2006, 08:42 PM
Sheppard's background just gets more and more confusing... especially with this episode!

From Rising Part I:

O'NEILL: You know, I checked into his record.

WEIR: I know about the whole supposed black mark in Afghanistan. He was trying to save the lives of three servicemen.

O'NEILL: Disobeying a direct order in the process.

From Home:

DEX: Our boys were pinned down, so Hot Shot here takes his chopper right over this bridge ...

MITCH: ... and we're supposed to follow him.

DEX: Well, there's no way I'm flying a Black Hawk over a bridge with enemy tanks on it.

SHEPPARD: Yeah, that was, uh, priceless. (He smiles.)

DEX: But, uh, we got that Special Ops team outta there, didn't we, Shep?

SHEPPARD: Yes, we did.

------------------

However in this episode we find out that he went in alone without Dex & Mitch as backup. We also find out that the Special Ops team which since the beginning has consisted of three servicemen is infact only 1 person. And since Season 1 Sheppard got the three servicemen back safely...

Which is why I have always supposed he wasn't court martialed as soon as he got back. But instead we find out that the 1 person he went back for he didn't get bring back alive.

HUGE PLOT HOLE... Sheppard shouldn't have even been in the military after that! If he had brought back three servicemen alive after disobeying an order not to go, then I could see the military giving him some leeway and just banishing him to the Antartic.

I don't know... I was expecting something alot better from the writers on Sheppard's behalf.

Ace

P.S. Also how did the guy with the shoulder wound end up dying but the guy with a bullet lodged in his intenstines end up living and making it "out of the woods" by the end of the episode!! WHAT?!? That makes absolutely no sense!!

OK, to clear that up for you: The guy Shep was trying to save probably hadn't been alone, his team probably died in the helicopter crash - so that'd make sense..
Also, I always got the impression that Mitch and Dex are already dead at the time of the black mark. I think Mitch was talking about a whole different mission earlier than his black mark...

On the ep itself: I am hugely disappointed! No real back story ( nothing that we didn't know before), no real team bonding and no real angst.
Normally, I am not the person to complain and I usually even stay away from the episode threads, because I think that some people are trying too hard to come up with certain faults or inconsistencies..
I think I might feel different after watching it again and I probably had too high expectations, but I finally want that background on Shep - somthing we don't know already!

Please PTB, PLEASE!!!

vaberella
September 15th, 2006, 08:42 PM
Solid ep. I knew that the team was going to hallucinate so no surprise there, but it kept my interest and I was happy to see more of Teyla and Carson.


-Shep did say that Teyla's wraith DNA might protect her from the "machine", is that what we're supposed to assume did happen? I enjoyed seeing her as the voice of reason while the guys ran around shooting each other. It carrying over her role in other eps like Allies.

I thought Rising II already established that Teyla would be unaffected by the Wraith machine for hallucinations. Even when she's shot by the stunner's she's the slowest to go down, but then the wraith are affected by their own stunners. So it's safe to say she wouldnt' be affected by this machine.


-Once again, TPTB make it seem like Elizabeth just waits around Atlantis until the team returns. Come on, couldn't Zelenka interrupt her in the middle of one of her many meetings or something?
At least they gave me her with a muskrat on her head...it was good enough to solidify her presence.


-I also don't know how Hagan survived, especially since Beckett picked him up and carried him. That's practically a death sentence for someone with so recent and significant chest wounds.
I thought Kagan was the black guy?!



-What was the military guy's name who Beckett thought was helping him? I thought he was great, too bad he had to be killed off.
Okay I thought he was Kagan...{Mod SNip}


-When the team watched the camera replay (blatant Sony placement!), I immediately thought of the Blair Witch Project. Thankfully snot-free this time.
Yeah, I said that in my review too...Blair Witch meets Predator, plus Mercs.

Ace
September 15th, 2006, 08:44 PM
I don't believe the whole Mitch and Dex mission was THE mission that got him in trouble. It never said it was, you honestly think he only went on one mission throughout his career?

Yep... I honestly believe that he has just gone on one mission in his entire time in Afghanistan! Why would you even ask such a silly question? LOL

They may have been referring to ANOTHER situation in which they rescued a Special Ops team from danger... but I think the writers intentionally wrote that particular scene to add further information to his "black mark".

Give the audience what they have been asking for... more information on his background. I am going to assume that they were referring to the same incident and completely ignore this episode with any regard to Sheppard's background.

Ace

Ironic
September 15th, 2006, 08:48 PM
At least they gave me her with a muskrat on her head...it was good enough to solidify her presence.

Dude, I have no clue what you're talking about. Elizabeth is getting hotter and hotter every episode!

And EmotionallyDisturbed, you know I love you, but even you have to admit, Teyla rocked in this episode. I'm not arguing the S/T shippy thing, but at least give it up for a great performance by Rachel.

gambit
September 15th, 2006, 08:48 PM
Yep... I honestly believe that he has just gone on one mission in his entire time in Afghanistan! Why would you even ask such a silly question? LOL

They may have been referring to ANOTHER situation in which they rescued a Special Ops team from danger... but I think the writers intentionally wrote that particular scene to add further information to his "black mark".

Give the audience what they have been asking for... more information on his background. I am going to assume that they were referring to the same incident and completely ignore this episode with any regard to Sheppard's background.

Ace

I think you need to go watch 'Home' again, it's pretty obvious they were talking about a different mission.

white noise
September 15th, 2006, 08:48 PM
another great episode! i'm impressed with how well these are being done, and finally seeing tayla in gear, instead of her middies! plus she acually got to act in this one. good for her. i thought it was a real kick to watch all of them loose it except tayla....hmmm.....female genes being immune, perhaps?

FerCryinOutLoud!
September 15th, 2006, 08:53 PM
I liked this episode. It was good. I'm not seeing how some are saying it's the best or one of the best this season. But whatever! To each their own.

I'm really sold on Teyla as a character now more than ever. A lot of that has to do with Rachel's acting. She did well with the desperation of the situation and showing her frustration. It was good to see her and Rodney interact on some level for a change, as well.

Rodney was more serious which was fresh.

I really could feel Becket's situation. I mean his whole situation was really reallty dark in a surprising way. Especially in comparison to everyone else's situations. If i were to go through something like that i think it would take me a long time to get over it. Maybe we could see some lingering effects from it in future episodes with Becket. But that probably won't happen.

Nice to see Ronan lighten up for a change at the end of the episode. Even if it took a gun shot wound to make it happen.

And i still don't know what a whump is.

emotionallydisturbed
September 15th, 2006, 08:54 PM
And EmotionallyDisturbed, you know I love you, but even you have to admit, Teyla rocked in this episode. I'm not arguing the S/T shippy thing, but at least give it up for a great performance by Rachel.

Rachel Luttrel's acting has never been in doubt. She manages to do wonders with absolutely nothing. My problem with Teyla's character has always been the lackluster way the PTB write her. They never give her anything interesting to do (I'd start writing about examples, but then I'd have to mention every single episode this season). This episode is the first time all season that they even considered putting Teyla in a bit of a spotlight, and even then, she was second-stage to John and Carson. That's just pathetic.

I could grow to like Teyla, I really could. But first the PTB have to show me that she's worth investing interest in. So far, the PTB haven't even shown me that they're interested in Teyla. They never give her anything to do.

But in this episode, I'll hand it Rachel. Once again, she did an amazing job with not a lot. She really is an awesome actress.

Ace
September 15th, 2006, 08:55 PM
I think you need to go watch 'Home' again, it's pretty obvious they were talking about a different mission.

Watched it yesterday... because I thought I was going to get some more background story on Sheppard.

And it's certainly not obvious that it was a different mission... it was certainly the same mission. And without presenting any proof you will not convince me otherwise!

Ace

Descent
September 15th, 2006, 08:56 PM
And it's certainly not obvious that it was a different mission... it was certainly the same mission. And without presenting any proof you will not convince me otherwise!

Maybe thats cause it was a hallucination and not an accurate account of what actually happened. That was obvious to me.

gambit
September 15th, 2006, 08:57 PM
Watched it yesterday... because I thought I was going to get some more background story on Sheppard.

And it's certainly not obvious that it was a different mission... it was certainly the same mission. And without presenting any proof you will not convince me otherwise!

Ace

You're right, I can't convince you otherwise but that's your problem, not mine. I know what I know, and you know what you know.

Ace
September 15th, 2006, 09:00 PM
Maybe thats cause it was a hallucination and not an accurate account of what actually happened. That was obvious to me.

I'd be almost willing to buy that... if it were not for Teyla's comment at the end when she asks if Sheppard got the guy back safely. Since he says no... and doesn't mention the other two guys then I simply can't buy it.

Ace

Descent
September 15th, 2006, 09:01 PM
I'd be almost willing to buy that... if it were not for Teyla's comment at the end when she asks if Sheppard got the guy back safely. Since he says no... and doesn't mention the other two guys then I simply can't buy it.

Ace
Well it was a different mission then. :P

Ace
September 15th, 2006, 09:02 PM
You're right, I can't convince you otherwise but that's your problem, not mine. I know what I know, and you know what you know.

It's not my problem... it's just another plot hole! I simply care more about the military side of these shows more than anything else so when they make a HUGE mistake on the military background of one of the main characters it irks me.

Ace

Ace
September 15th, 2006, 09:04 PM
Well it was a different mission then. :P

How it could it be a different mission? The guy specially mentioned that Sheppard went against orders to go and get him...

Unless Sheppard has two "black marks" on his record for doing practically the same thing and we just never heard about this one? That would be the only logical answer... other than the more obvious one!

The writers created a plot hole by not looking up the already stated background on the character.

Ace

gambit
September 15th, 2006, 09:05 PM
It's not my problem... it's just another plot hole! I simply care more about the military side of these shows more than anything else so when they make a HUGE mistake on the military background of one of the main characters it irks me.

Ace

I agree about about the three service men thing, but I still believe the mission talked about in 'Home' was something else entirely. Can't convince me otherwise.

JanusAncient
September 15th, 2006, 09:06 PM
Heh, it was okay. The best thing was Teyla, and Reynolds, he seemed to be the furthest from reality. And, I figured that the power spike was Mckay's delusion, but it was funny to see him dive on the ground, and then look bewildered when nothing happened. Getting shot again, this time by Sheppard, fantastic.

emotionallydisturbed
September 15th, 2006, 09:08 PM
I thought Rising II already established that Teyla would be unaffected by the Wraith machine for hallucinations. Even when she's shot by the stunner's she's the slowest to go down, but then the wraith are affected by their own stunners. So it's safe to say she wouldnt' be affected by this machine.

That logic go BOOM.

Ace
September 15th, 2006, 09:08 PM
I agree about about the three service men thing, but I still believe the mission talked about in 'Home' was something else entirely. Can't convince me otherwise.

Not trying to convince you... just stating my personal belief!

Ace

FoolishPleasure
September 15th, 2006, 09:11 PM
I don't believe the whole Mitch and Dex mission was THE mission that got him in trouble. It never said it was, you honestly think he only went on one mission throughout his career?
You don't get many chances in the military. The injured captain made the remark (something like), "I'll vouch for you at your court martial." This HAD to be the incident referred to in "Rising" and "Home". This couldn't have happened more than once without Shep getting a dishonorable discharge, or criminal charges tossed at him. I just think the writer slipped up by not reviewing Shep's past, which is a rather serious boo-boo considering how little backstory we have even had on Shep.


At least they gave me her (Weir) with a muskrat on her head...it was good enough to solidify her presence.
Why do you always have to be so MEAN to this character? You don't like her, fine. Making snarky remarks about physical appearances is borderline actress bashing, IMO. Fine if you say you hated her wardrobe, but lets not get into trashing physical appearances. Personally, I found her hair rather pretty.

gambit
September 15th, 2006, 09:14 PM
You don't get many chances in the military. The injured captain made the remark (something like), "I'll vouch for you at your court martial." This HAD to be the incident referred to in "Rising" and "Home". This couldn't have happened more than once without Shep getting a dishonorable discharge, or criminal charges tossed at him. I just think the writer slipped up by not reviewing Shep's past, which is a rather serious boo-boo considering how little backstory we have even had on Shep.


Oh, it was definitely the incident in Rising but not in Home.

Ace
September 15th, 2006, 09:18 PM
But what about the guy with a shoulder wound dying... and the guy with internal bleeding from his intestines manages to not only live but appear "out of the woods" by the end of the episode?

I'm no doctor but that doesn't make any medical sense to me...

Ace

lirenel
September 15th, 2006, 09:27 PM
Quick quesiton: The marine that survived asked twice after McKay when he was injured.

After he's first injured and being carried back to the cave he says "I'm sorry about this Dr. McKay." to which mcKay answered "Don't worry about me," etc.

Then when they're in the cave he asks Beckett "How's Dr. McKay?"

So the question is: how does the marine know mckay? Have we seen him in another episode? I was just thinking it was odd that he kept asking if McKay was alright.

smushybird
September 15th, 2006, 09:33 PM
Well, I enjoyed the ep, for the most part. Yet I feel strangely disappointed.
I guess I'm looking for more depth from Stargate Atlantis than there's ever going to be. Certainly more than there's been so far in SGA--and more than there was in SG1.

I should give up hoping for it and just enjoy the show for what it is. It was fun, mildly entertaining, had a few interesting moments with the Carson storyline. He suffered more than anyone (well, except for the guys that died, of course) and Paul McGillion was excellent in conveying Carson's anguish.

The Sheppard backstory seemed predictable and superficial. I would've liked more substance...something to leave me more intrigued with Sheppard than ever. It didn't really work for me that way. Did it work for you guys?

Tipper
September 15th, 2006, 09:36 PM
Ooh, I thought that was the coolest thing about this whole ep, actually. The wounds on the sergeant and Kagen. Beckett's already hallucinating--like Ronon, he was hallucinating almost from the beginning. The sergeant, when he "stood up and said he would go outside and keep watch" was already dead, because Beckett wasn't monitoring him. Beckett said, to Sheppard (before he left), that the sergeant would be fine if he was monitored, but Kagan would only have "minutes" to live. His mind, I think, kept killing Kagan, who was clearly not that bad off--obviously he had more than minutes. That's why Beckett was so upset at the end. Because of his hallucination, he was focused on the wrong man...and the sergeant died. Of all of them, I think his guilt is going to be the deepest.

(And I wrote lieutenant through all this, instead of sergeant originally. Ford flashbacks, man. Sorry!)

memnarch
September 15th, 2006, 09:37 PM
Unexpectedly good! There was virtually no spoiler info before hand and I was getting a little worried. I liked that there was finally something for everyone to do!!! Even Teyla! Sheppard's backstory was nice to see, as well as Beckett's emotional wringer. Though everyone who was watching it at my house figured it out as soon as they discovered the Wraith device, the fact that McKay was hallucinating was a nice twist, though not entirely unexpected.

Overall, a pleasant surprise: ***

smushybird
September 15th, 2006, 09:48 PM
As for those who thought this was going to be the great Sheppard/Teyla romance thing. Um, Sheppard thought she was a GUY through most of the episode. :rolleyes:


For one instant there near the end, I thought Teyla was actually going to plant a kiss on him to try to break him free of the hallucination... :D And I am decidedly not a 'shipper. It just seemed so, for an instant, in the way she was leaning toward him and talking so desperately to reach him.

I agree with you, I didn't feel like I learned anything new about John.

And it all felt like too much crammed into one hour and not enough time for anything with real meat to it. And Sheppard shoots McKay from that distance and doesn't kill him? Not that I wanted him to--it just doesn't seem Sheppard would fail to mortally wound him in that instance.

To get back to the shallow vibe, I liked Zelenka's new 'do. He's still cute as a button. :D

Gate Geek
September 15th, 2006, 09:52 PM
Well, watching this ep the second time around only made it a bit better than the first time.

I will admit, I found most of it disappointing. For all the hype of this being Shep's backstory, where exactly was it and what did we learn? What was shown was known from Rising - in that he disobeyed orders going back for three men in Afghanistan. Ok, so this ep had some of the action associated with it. But if sHep was supposed to be under severe emotional angst over the memories, I didn't see it.

For some reason, the cat and mouse game between Ronan and Sheppy offered a few brief moments of comedic relief. Nothing like seeing your teammate as the enemy. But I can't help but wonder when did they both become such bad shots?

I thought this episode could easily have had way more potential than what was shown. But it certainly isn't the worst episode of the lot either.

I give it a 7/10.

FoolishPleasure
September 15th, 2006, 09:53 PM
For one instant there near the end, I thought Teyla was actually going to plant a kiss on him to try to break him free of the hallucination... :D And I am decidedly not a 'shipper. It just seemed so, for an instant, in the way she was leaning toward him and talking so desperately to reach him.

To get back to the the shallow vibe, I liked Zelenka's new 'do. He's still cute as a button. :D
I actually thought Teyla was getting so desperate that she was going to punch him to knock some sense into him. ;)

Zelenka is always a treat. :)

suse
September 15th, 2006, 10:18 PM
I liked the whole screwing with the mind concept. I'm not so sure I believe the really-bad-off guy would make it over shot-in-the-shoulder guy(I liked that actor!) however...

I got sick of Rodney explaining what he had to do. Someone was dying! Quit k'vetching and do it already! Way to much exposition. Was this an attempt to not have to show the more expensive action? My sister was threatening to turn it off (She thought the story dragged.)And I thought that was reserved for SG-1. I was yelling at the tv. (Except Sateda - I was yelling "Video game villians!" quite a bit.)

I thought John's backstory was intersting. It's about time Teyla gets at least winged. Notice she wasn't whining about Ronin shooting her. Poor Beckett! Rodney was just a pain this ep. He needed to be shot again. Perhaps on the other cheek.

A disappointment following last weeks episode.

Suse

Hatcheter
September 15th, 2006, 10:31 PM
It was a good ep. I really enjoyed seeing where everyone's minds took them when the machine started to affect them. Each hallucination suited the individual's personality and history.


I agree about about the three service men thing, but I still believe the mission talked about in 'Home' was something else entirely.

Ditto. It's been pointed out to me that USAF helicopter pilots do Search and Rescue missions, so if Sheppard was in Afghanistan for any length of time he had likely flown several rescue sorties. In 'Home', Mitch and Dex were carrying on about a crazy/daring maneuver Sheppard made during a mission. Nothing really connects it to the mission we saw in 'Phantoms'.

I'll need to see the episode again, but didn't Sheppard ask Holland about his men or crew (I can't remember the exact tword) when he first arrived at the downed Hind?

And to militarygeek for a moment, I was almost ready to pitch a fit when I thought they were gonna use a Soviet Hind as a downed Air Force helicopter. I was very glad Sheppard clered that up. But what was up with the Marines carrying MP-5s? If not P90s, they ought to have used M-16s, IMO. Is FN stopping blanks production again?

Orion's Star
September 15th, 2006, 10:49 PM
Now I'm no expert on military crashes that happened in Afghanistan, but I didn't know they came equipped with their own sandbags and conveniently placed trees. Unless somehow Sheppard was hallucinating C&C:Generals...

o-0
September 15th, 2006, 11:09 PM
y didnt atlantis send a jumper through the gate instead of sending the daedalus? jumpers can dial gates without the dhd and it would have been a lot faster

Excali5033
September 15th, 2006, 11:13 PM
Heh. The Afghanistan sequence was flawed enough technically without arguing about plot holes. But we'll ignore all that for now. :p

Candy
September 15th, 2006, 11:15 PM
Bam Bam played the wraith!:)

Ruined_puzzle
September 15th, 2006, 11:20 PM
I actually thought Teyla was getting so desperate that she was going to punch him to knock some sense into him. ;)

I was thinking more of a slap but punching him would have worked too ;) I was just thinking no ship thank god. Why did I ever doubt Carl Binder :)

The episode was okay, nothing new on the Shep backstory but I really didn't expect anything, considering how tptb have dealed with it in the past.

I loved Beckett in this, his hallucinations were far more interesting than Shep's.

kris
September 15th, 2006, 11:38 PM
I wish Teyla had just reached over and given John a firm slap (or two) there at the end in the bunker---may not have helped him but I would've loved it. I just wanted to shake him to his senses. He was so completely gone, maybe a little pain would've done the trick.

Spooky, creepy, entertainment at its Atlantis best. Suspense sustained, great editing from reality to imagined scenes--that really upped the tension--especially the intercut of Ronan's and John's hallucinations. And poor Carson. Yes, he will feel very bad he didn't know his other patient needed him as well. For a second there, I thought they'd all end up wounded.

I can't believe John shot Rodney:mckay: , who will never let him forget it. One more episode then the long wait. :(

Dark Falcon
September 15th, 2006, 11:39 PM
This episode was excellent! It kept us guessing what was
going to happen next all the way through! It was highly
entertaining and, most of all, it kept us wanting more, as all
good episodes should. :sheppard:

Major Sheppard's flashback
sequences allowed us to understand his past and what
he has been through.

Alright, An A-10 Warthog made an appearance! I've seen that
aircraft in real life and let me tell you that it's one
beautiful sight! Did anyone recognize the crashed Soviet
helicopter? It was an Mi-24 "Hind" gunship.

I can't believe that Sheppard actually shot McKay and Ronan.
That was completely unexpected.

Carl Binder's storylines are definitely helping SGA's ratings. Hope he's
around for a while. :)

The Kull Warriors appeared in this episode!! I miss those guys! :(

Dark Falcon
September 15th, 2006, 11:41 PM
y didnt atlantis send a jumper through the gate instead of sending the daedalus? jumpers can dial gates without the dhd and it would have been a lot faster

Good point. You found a plothole!

Yeah, they could have sent Jumpers to pick up the Atlantis team.
But, wouldn't the Wraith device have interfered with the Jumper's
controls?

Fatewarns
September 16th, 2006, 12:15 AM
you know I can't imagine being that soldier (the black one) who probably bled to death, trying to get Carson to help him, but couldn't because of Carson little episode, which is sad.

Catalase
September 16th, 2006, 12:21 AM
y didnt atlantis send a jumper through the gate instead of sending the daedalus? jumpers can dial gates without the dhd and it would have been a lot faster
Power. McKay said there was no power, even if there was a way to dial. Dialing gate is the one that provides power to the connection, and since the DHD was blown...I'm guessing perhaps that the PJ lets you dial but doesn't provide the gate with juice like a normal DHD.

Kazan
September 16th, 2006, 02:03 AM
One question...what's up with the musckrat on her head?! I was a bit distracted by it when I saw the hair. My sis called it a mullet, others said a bad weave...I think her curling iron broke down before she could finish.

Question for you. How is any of that relevant within the context of an episode review / thread?
If you wish to produce large scale reviews each week in the manner you do, then surely you need to try and do so with some balance and objectiveness? Of course any review contains some personal opinion and we all respect and understand that but there is a balance to be struck.

By your own admission there wasn’t much to comment on in respect to Weir this week, so why do so at all let alone in such snide terms, not once but twice within a short number of posts?
You don’t like the character – I think we all know that and the reasons for it, and that is your opinion. But this borders on personal bashing and IMHO is uncalled for. It’s a shame, I like to read your reviews each week. Don’t always agree with everything but they are generally interesting to read and I like to see all sides of the views being expressed.
On that note, I’ll let everyone return to the interesting comments and debate

Excali5033
September 16th, 2006, 02:42 AM
Alright, An A-10 Warthog made an appearance! I've seen that
aircraft in real life and let me tell you that it's one
beautiful sight! Did anyone recognize the crashed Soviet
helicopter? It was an Mi-24 "Hind" gunship.

B model. Well, probably a C model, realistically, but B for story purposes.

kyriakos
September 16th, 2006, 04:31 AM
lacked originality, no plot twist, you knew whats gonna happen from the first 5 minutes, recycled plot from other scifi shows and even stargate itself. by far the worst episode of this season for me.

shockwave
September 16th, 2006, 04:36 AM
good ep, but no way my favourite
had some clever writing
liked the afghanistan stuff
also cool to see the supersoldiers again, they were so cool

silence
September 16th, 2006, 05:11 AM
simple solution to problem of Shep's black mark... he went in, saved three guys (they werent wounded), tried to save wounded one (but failed)... end of story...

since there was only Teyla next to him, they couldn't make three wounded soldiers around him, but since there is NO info on that mission, how the hell anyone knows for how many men Shep went? 1,3 or 4? yes, he saved 3 and he failed to save last of them (which is prolly why that part was most traumatic and it became his hallucination - you did notice that all of them were influenced by their fears/traumas? did you? Shep - blak mark mission, Ronon - Wraith, Backett - not being able to save life, Rodney - dying in any way ;)). also to those insisting on plot holes... there were TWO choppers shot down (which is clearly stated) in that mission. since i am not aware of ANY single seat US military chopper... thats AT LEAST 4 people all together...

end of story. bloody nitpicking. just enjoy the show and ep (which was great).
sometimes coming here after watching latest ep and reading all the nitpickping ruins that ep more then anythin TPTB could do.... seems i need to cut my time on GW and enjoy the well written and entertaining episodes of this season....

Easter Lily
September 16th, 2006, 05:37 AM
I thoroughly enjoyed this episode... and was surprisingly engrossed in it. I didn't expect originality and was pleasantly surprised to see such a strong team episode after hearing all kinds of "ship" rumours. Paradise Lost was a decent episode but I prefer the way this one was put together, it felt tighter (the way every character was integrated into the story was extremely well done) and there were even a couple of twists to add interest.

I didn't care one iota that we didn't learn anything new about Sheppard... but I was very impressed with the way the Afghanistan incident was worked into his fears about losing fellow soldiers on the field. I don't want any backstory that upsets the overall balance of the episode so I think what we got was enough for now.

Beckett's arc in this episode was noteworthy... The twist with the two marines was a nice touch... We don't get to see Beckett too often as the dedicated medical professional so this episode gave PM a chance to stretch his acting legs.

Linzi
September 16th, 2006, 05:49 AM
I enjoyed Phantoms very much. Not the best of season 3, Common Ground and Sateda are so far for me, but still very strong and incredibly entertaining.
I didn't think this was ANYTHING like any SG1 episode I've ever seen...certainly not Paradise Lost, and definitely not a re-working of it, though nothing is truly original, how can it be?
Okay.The plot. I thought it was good, not exactly what I expected, but tense and disturbing in places.
Sheppard. I liked his backstory here. No, it wasn't anything Earth shattering that was revealed, but I didn't expect it to be! Let's be honest, a lot of us Sheppard fans have hypothesised to death the Afghanistan incident, and it played out pretty much as I expected it to. Still, it's really nice to see it on screen, to see some of what happened in canon. As usual, Joe put in a great performance, and I enjoyed seeing him running around doing the action stuff he loves so much - very entertaining, especially the desert fatigues,lol! I particularly enjoyed Sheppard's interaction with Teyla. Those two have developed a very strong bond, which is nice to see.
I liked Teyla in this episode. It was great to see Rachel Luttrell getting to play an important part here; trying to get through to her friend. I liked the way she did manage to convince Sheppard to help disconnect the wraith device, and in my eyes their mutual trust has been strengthened. Great character stuff.
Ronon didn't get to do much but run around, but that was fine; the emphasis was on Sheppard's hallucinations, and I was happy with that.
Rodney was good. Ireally enjoyed his disbelief at being shot by Sheppard.
Beckett was good here too, though it was a little spooky how the marine's were alive/dead!
I particularly enjoyed the closing scenes. We find out Holland didn't make it, I presumed he had, so that was pretty sad, and explains much about Sheppard and the way he never wants to leave a man behind, always wanting to save everybody. I loved Sheppard's last line to Rodney and the exhasperation in his voice. Very amusing.
On first viewing I give this 8/10, though that may change after subsequent viewings. Another strong episode. Season 3 is shaping up just as I had hoped.
Final note on the hair thing. Personally, I like Weir's longer style, I see it as much more flattering. But, I don't think it matters two hoots what a characters hair looks like, but people are free to comment if they so wish, surely? Seems pretty trivial to me in the scheme of things, though. However, the mods have made it pretty clear over the years that you can say anything you like about a fictional character, and that includes being mean to them if you so wish, as long as the actor is left out of it. At times, ALL of SGA's characters have been torn to shreds here, sometimes some great observations have been made, and it isn't necessarily nice to read things that you find upsetting about your favourite character, is it? But, they aren't real, so what does it matter? I've learned to ignore negative things that I consider petty, unless, of course actors get dragged into the negativity. Perhaps posters should think about that in the future when making 'mean' comments about characters who are not their favourites, before they complain about others criticising their favourites. After all one person's favourite isn't necessarily anothers...

Southern Red
September 16th, 2006, 06:02 AM
Good team episode with lots of action. Great writing and great acting by everyone. It's nice to see that Shep and Teyla have a real friendship. I was beginning to wonder if they had been introduced. ;) Thank the stars that TPTB have realized that considering the lack of romantic chemistry, those two work so much better as friends and teammates.

Now, what exactly did we learn new about Sheppard? *crickets chirping, birds tweeting* I thought so. Nada.

Loved the switching back and forth from the planet to Atlantis. Good to see Elizabeth and Radek working at home to do what good leaders and scientists do. It's her job to wait at home and make decisions and she is damn good at it. And I think her hair is gorgeous. These personal attacks are getting ridiculous and just making the attackers look petty.

atlantis_babe34
September 16th, 2006, 06:14 AM
Good team episode with lots of action. Great writing and great acting by everyone. It's nice to see that Shep and Teyla have a real friendship. I was beginning to wonder if they had been introduced. ;) Thank the stars that TPTB have realized that considering the lack of romantic chemistry, those two work so much better as friends and teammates.

Now, what exactly did we learn new about Sheppard? *crickets chirping, birds tweeting* I thought so. Nada.

Loved the switching back and forth from the planet to Atlantis. Good to see Elizabeth and Radek working at home to do what good leaders and scientists do. It's her job to wait at home and make decisions and she is damn good at it. And I think her hair is gorgeous. These personal attacks are getting ridiculous and just making the attackers look petty.


Wow its been a while.. well i havent seen the episode.. cus Australian TV sucks badly... i jsut wanted to agree with SR (i can call u that right :P).. Leave Weir alone.. there is an anti Weir thread in this forum.. post the stuff that other non-weir fans will read.. not in here.. thanks!

good to be back!;)

Steve_the_Wraith
September 16th, 2006, 06:45 AM
I really enjoyed the episode - it wasn't a big flashy centerrpiece episode like Sateda, or Progeny but it was a well written and creepy character piece

RecycledFunk
September 16th, 2006, 06:48 AM
y didnt atlantis send a jumper through the gate instead of sending the daedalus? jumpers can dial gates without the dhd and it would have been a lot faster


Power. McKay said there was no power, even if there was a way to dial. Dialing gate is the one that provides power to the connection, and since the DHD was blown...I'm guessing perhaps that the PJ lets you dial but doesn't provide the gate with juice like a normal DHD.

Also, the area around the 'gate was pretty heavily wooded. I don't think they would've had enough room to pull up and out if they shot a 'jumper thru.

Merlin7
September 16th, 2006, 06:58 AM
Well, I enjoyed the ep, for the most part. Yet I feel strangely disappointed.
I guess I'm looking for more depth from Stargate Atlantis than there's ever going to be. Certainly more than there's been so far in SGA--and more than there was in SG1.

I should give up hoping for it and just enjoy the show for what it is. It was fun, mildly entertaining, had a few interesting moments with the Carson storyline. He suffered more than anyone (well, except for the guys that died, of course) and Paul McGillion was excellent in conveying Carson's anguish.

The Sheppard backstory seemed predictable and superficial. I would've liked more substance...something to leave me more intrigued with Sheppard than ever. It didn't really work for me that way. Did it work for you guys?

I was very disappointed. I should stop expecting ANYTHING! I already knew this about Shep. That he went back against order, regardless of what mission it was. And I had figured out in season one that Shep's Angst was that he couldn't save all the men he went back for. That at some point he went back, against orders and the guy/guys died. Big surprise...NOT!

I wanted backstory they hadn't already told us. Something, YA KNOW...NEW! I do expect something from teh writers/PTB. Obviously I expect WAY too much but it's hard to just drop my expectations.

Joe was fabulous and very pretty, but that's not enough. I can look at pictures and rewatch the first season for that. I want something more. ::Kicks stupid show::

Melyanna
September 16th, 2006, 07:06 AM
Good episode, overall. The pacing dragged a bit, but after SG-1's exercise in crush-and-rush with the plot, I was okay with that.

And look, a Binder ep with a fair amount of interaction between John and Rodney that didn't annoy me! (Really, that's my one complaint about Carl Binder.)

I have to say, I've been kind of annoyed at how quickly fans have looked at the trailers and pointed at some SG-1 episode and cried foul. Not once during this episode did I think it bore any resemblance to Paradise Lost, which is the one that I saw most often. But anyway.

I nearly squealed out loud when John showed up in desert camo. I'd given up all hope of seeing that anytime in the near future. And more to the point, the explanation of the incident made perfect sense with what we know as the punishment. The disobeying an order, destruction of property, loss of crew, and failure to rescue anyone fits with the idea of not having a court-martial but getting quietly cycled out of the service.

And I have to say, given some of the bizarre rumors I was hearing about this episode, I was highly amused that John spent half the episode thinking Teyla was a guy. ;)

That said, I really liked seeing some proof that John and Teyla are friends. They may not be as close as John and Elizabeth or even John and Rodney, but it was nice to see them actually interact. Over the last two seasons I've occasionally had to wonder if John has any respect at all for her. There have certainly been times when he's been totally dismissive of her and completely disinterested. I like seeing proof that they're friends instead of just being told that they are. I know John has problems expressing emotions, but this story was the perfect vehicle for showing that yeah, they really are friends.

(On a superficial note, I'd like to applaud TPTB's restraint at keeping Teyla's midriff covered through the whole episode. It was so non-distracting that I didn't even realize it till now. ;) )

caty
September 16th, 2006, 07:08 AM
But, I don't think it matters two hoots what a characters hair looks like,

I can't believe you just said that!!!

caty
September 16th, 2006, 07:11 AM
y didnt atlantis send a jumper through the gate instead of sending the daedalus? jumpers can dial gates without the dhd and it would have been a lot faster

You're right! Maybe there was something wrong with the gate so nobody can dial out at all? The only possible explanation..

BTW: After the second viewing, I still didn't like it (and can't believe it, either)... :(
I'm trying so hard to like it, but I'm just too disappointed...

Ltcolshepjumper
September 16th, 2006, 07:15 AM
Good episode, overall. The pacing dragged a bit, but after SG-1's exercise in crush-and-rush with the plot, I was okay with that.

And look, a Binder ep with a fair amount of interaction between John and Rodney that didn't annoy me! (Really, that's my one complaint about Carl Binder.)

I have to say, I've been kind of annoyed at how quickly fans have looked at the trailers and pointed at some SG-1 episode and cried foul. Not once during this episode did I think it bore any resemblance to Paradise Lost, which is the one that I saw most often. But anyway.

I nearly squealed out loud when John showed up in desert camo. I'd given up all hope of seeing that anytime in the near future. And more to the point, the explanation of the incident made perfect sense with what we know as the punishment. The disobeying an order, destruction of property, loss of crew, and failure to rescue anyone fits with the idea of not having a court-martial but getting quietly cycled out of the service.

And I have to say, given some of the bizarre rumors I was hearing about this episode, I was highly amused that John spent half the episode thinking Teyla was a guy. ;)

That said, I really liked seeing some proof that John and Teyla are friends. They may not be as close as John and Elizabeth or even John and Rodney, but it was nice to see them actually interact. Over the last two seasons I've occasionally had to wonder if John has any respect at all for her. There have certainly been times when he's been totally dismissive of her and completely disinterested. I like seeing proof that they're friends instead of just being told that they are. I know John has problems expressing emotions, but this story was the perfect vehicle for showing that yeah, they really are friends.

(On a superficial note, I'd like to applaud TPTB's restraint at keeping Teyla's midriff covered through the whole episode. It was so non-distracting that I didn't even realize it till now. ;) )

I personally liked the episode. It was great. Like someone said, it wasn't to BIG but at the same time it had a good plot. More so than Paradise Lost. The only reference I saw to paradise Lost was the 'killing each other because of hallucinations' part and the knive part where the Genii stabbed the other one. That part was completely taken from Paradise Lost.

lily
September 16th, 2006, 07:31 AM
WOW! This has become my second fave Carl Binder epi ever, the first one being Common Ground (and this one is really a close second). What I love about Carl Binder episodes is that he always write great team interaction and gets all the characters. In particular in this epi everybody in the team had something to do.

There are lots of really nice single lines throughout the epi that speak volumes about how much several characters have grown (next time I watch it, I'll write down some details so I can post them).

Great action, angst and bonding. Loved it!

Oh, loved Shep's hallucination. And they were excellent mixed with what was really happening. Excellent editing.

My only nitpick is that the moment Shep unplugged the thing, the hallucinations ended. Too suddenly. One would think that if the hallucinations started to show slowly, they would have had to wear off slowly too. However, it's a small nitpick in my eyes. I guess it must have been done due to time constraints, and there's NOTHING else in this epi that I would've liked to be left out in order to include another scene about the effects wearing off. So, I'm OK with that.

I absolutely ADORED the ending. Perfect.

So, I'd rate this a 9.8 out of 10 because of that minor nitpick I mentioned, but I'll round up and give it a 10. Loved it!

Kudos to Mr. Binder.

Linzi
September 16th, 2006, 07:35 AM
I can't believe you just said that!!!
Ooops! You know what I mean! I meant nobody's hair except Sheppard's is important, and I don't give two hoots about anybody elses! LOL!;) :sheppard:

vaberella
September 16th, 2006, 07:36 AM
And I have to say, given some of the bizarre rumors I was hearing about this episode, I was highly amused that John spent half the episode thinking Teyla was a guy. ;)

That said, I really liked seeing some proof that John and Teyla are friends.

(On a superficial note, I'd like to applaud TPTB's restraint at keeping Teyla's midriff covered through the whole episode. It was so non-distracting that I didn't even realize it till now. ;) )

You act that when John was thinking Teyla was a guy that it was just any guy. That's his bloody mate that died in combat. Crap man, that stuff is deep. That's someone John honored to watch his back and then went through hell and high water to save, further more risked his career and life to save...dude that's not just any guy or 'a guy'. For John to hold Teyla in that kind of esteem; to see EVERYONE but her as an enemy that's really out of control and says something that really no one can deny. That's a place of bloody honor. No one has that privilege, and on top of that Teyla has access to his inner sanctum.

No one on the SGA ex knows more about John, besides what they read in a file or (the miniscule) he allows them to know than Teyla. She was given that privilege, even if he didn't want to give it, he did. This was shown in episodes like LFP, snippets in Conversion and TLG, and totally seen in Sateda and here. He has been seen at his worst in HER presence. How is that so easily discarded?!

I'm a McShep, was that from the beginning (J/T is my hetero), and he bloody shot McKay; we're talking McKay here?! Apparently many of us believed McKay to be his best bud, he spends more time with McKay than ANYONE else in Atlantis, actually visually speaking, I'm sure he hangs out with others on Atlantis, cause Teyla told him a lot of info about herself in S1. Anyway, McKay was viewed as the enemy and shot AND John was gonna finish the job!! Come on now?!

If John was still under that brain influence he would have killed EVERYONE but Teyla...Teyla wasn't just imagined with just any guy, and worthy enough to be seen with that guy. As for the friendship thing, come on, proof has been around since S1-S3, Sateda was proof this season that they were always friends if not more (you don't just let anyone into what you're thinking and 'feeling' as John did with Teyla; unless of course you're weird). Once again an excellent ep further giving us the extent of their friendship...but their interaction has been remarked on for several seasons. It was Teyla, John asked for reassurance in Allies---I'd still like to know why he cared enough to ask her about what she felt...when majority rules.


But that's somethinge else, overall Binder did more by adding to J/T interaction and again just redisplaying the bond and friendship that has been clearly apparent in the last two seasons. John has acted and reacted that way with no one else and they've shown how that deep that bond is. Further more, in combat it's pretty much established that she's his second in command, no way it's Ronon or McKay...you can see that in The Tower. She's seen him through his nightmares, which I don't think no one has and when it comes to a military man, those things can drive you crazy---especially when you see you're comrades go down. Teyla was given that privy and that's not just easily thrown out or given, the marginalizing otherwise bogs the mind. It's not romantic shippy, but definitely shippy in the context of friendship that could develop into something more, REALISTICALLY if TPTB wanted to do that.


Overall Binder did a fantastic job. I don't think Teyla's usage in this episode was better than her in Sateda...she was fantastic in Sateda and no one can really beat that. And after the disaster in Common Ground which was completely unrealistic, and totally out of wack that we had NOTHING on Teyla's reactions and feelings; well this definitely gave the SGA writers redemption. Binder managed to use ALL the characters well. I don't know how he managed to give Weir and Zelenka something to do, since they just kept repeating the same lines. But they did alright...and his characterization of Ronon/John/Teyla/Beckett/McKay was fantastic. I was actually expecting more of J/R than anything else, so it was surprising to see that not being the case. A bit disturbing at times to watch, but it was overall a good episode and I think the J/T stuff was fantastic...proof was given to me before, but I like undeniability that it gives to everyone on certain things...


*Further more, on the last note, Teyla is always fully decked out when in combat. I don't understand that it's TPTB's way of keeping her clothed. They said it was action packed, she's wearing her military attire as she's ALWAYS worn during combat from Seasons 1-3. I'm sure when she's back on Atlantis during her leisure she'll be back to her usual...and as it should be. I can't understand how every episode brings up her clothing...sad when there's nothing to dispute about the character, one harps on her clothing. I don't even see how women see her mid-riff to be distracting, don't you have one?! Why would it be of such interest it's distracting...I lift up my shirt and there's mine, I work out so it's worth lifting up.
Now Weir's hair attachment was distracting, since it was there last week; or John's hair (but that's always attention grabbing). But a body part, meh...never worth much interest to me. Especially if I was blessed with a fantastic one as well. When you got it, flaunt it...shoot!


Binder you're a demi-god in my eyes. Great job!! :D

keshou
September 16th, 2006, 07:39 AM
I liked the episode but didn't LOVE the episode.

They took an old concept and managed to execute it very well I thought but I was never that emotionally engaged in what was happening.

We finally saw a bit of John's backstory and that was welcome. I just expected it to be more original and interesting. :) Joe was very good though.

I enjoyed the stuff with Beckett and McKay more although McKay was back to "super-whiny" mode in this episode. The whole "you shot me"! bit was funny and reminded me of that SG-1 episode (Lockdown?) when Jack shot Daniel. ;)

Beckett had some really good scenes as he tried to save that guy, only to think he was dead....and then not dead.

Teyla has some nice scenes in this one and I thought they gave a plausible explanation as to why she wasn't affected.

I thought the cast all did a great job and good execution all the way around. Just not an episode I'll run to watch again like I did McKay and Mrs. Miller last week.

7 (barely) out of 10. :)

Ltcolshepjumper
September 16th, 2006, 07:44 AM
7 out of 10? I give it a 9 out of 10. It was cool how Beckett thought the guy was dead, then alive, then dead, then alive, then dead, and he turns out to be alive. It was also cool how the guy helping Beckett had been dead a long time. And how Mckay thought the Wraith device was messing up. It's at least an 8 out of 10, not a 7.

tace
September 16th, 2006, 07:50 AM
I really liked Ronon in this. He wasn't as major a part as the other team members but what he did was interesting if you pay attention. I thought at first he was just going to be the Wraith exterminator (a la the first part of Sateda) again but at the end he 'sees' Teyla and Rodney. He has people to protect now. Interesting twist to the story.

And I cracked up at the very beginning when he took the Genii knife & was testing it out. Too funny. I wonder where he hid that one?

Everyone's hallucinations really do a lot to give insight into their fears and motivations. The team has a strong bond already, and it was interesting to see how they interact with all that mess going on around them. The acting was brilliant. Even the extras were believable--how often do you really feel that affected by red shirts?

Carson's hallucinations really hurt to watch. Poor guy--most of his character development involves extreme whumpage. I suppose that's what happens when you take someone so compassionate and stick him in Pegasus. It's good that the core of his character hasn't been changed too much by what he's had to do to fight the Wraith.

And I loved that McKay wasn't just used as a foil for comic relief. He had some really funny moments but they didn't distract from the story at all. The pot line was great. Carson's "Really?" had me rolling. Rodney + pot + white bread = new OT3?

I'm not quite sure what some of the Carson and Rodney interaction was all about--the parts where Kagan was telling Carson that Rodney wanted to keep him from saving the other guy. A lot of distrust there? Anger at having to pretty much toss "first do no harm" in the garbage?

It was good to see that the episode wasn't overly weighted to one person, too. Shep was a huge part of it but everything seemed to be so interconnected & changeable that the focus kept shifting. I think it would've overshadowed all the other characters if the episode had been the Holy Grail of Shep backstory.

All in all, the emotions were so believable. I loved everyone in this. John in full-savior mode, complete with snarky comments and barely repressed (and still visible) emotion. The expressions on Teyla's face and her palpable desperation--especially at the very end. The look on Rodney's face after he's been shot. Carson with the Marine he saved. Ronon chuckling at the 17th "You SHOT me!" :D

Luz
September 16th, 2006, 08:19 AM
That said, I really liked seeing some proof that John and Teyla are friends. They may not be as close as John and Elizabeth or even John and Rodney, but it was nice to see them actually interact. Over the last two seasons I've occasionally had to wonder if John has any respect at all for her. There have certainly been times when he's been totally dismissive of her and completely disinterested. I like seeing proof that they're friends instead of just being told that they are. I know John has problems expressing emotions, but this story was the perfect vehicle for showing that yeah, they really are friends.

ITA, one of the things I've liked more this season is how tptb have been deepening the relationships between everyone, not just McKay/Sheppard and Sheppard/Weir.
Well, they've just had what counts as their first real conversation since the beginning of the show in Sateda, it was about time we saw tptb remember that Sheppard and Teyla are supposed to be team members and actually have some sort of interaction, you know, like talking, and actually having scenes together.

FoolishPleasure
September 16th, 2006, 08:22 AM
You act that when John was thinking Teyla was a guy that it was just any guy. That's his bloody mate that died in combat. Crap man, that stuff is deep. That's someone John honored to watch his back and then went through hell and high water to save, further more risked his career and life to save...dude that's not just any guy or 'a guy'. For John to hold Teyla in that kind of esteem; to see EVERYONE but her as an enemy that's really out of control and says something that really no one can deny. That's a place of bloody honor. No one has that privilege, and on top of that Teyla has access to his inner sanctum.

John saw Teyla as his buddy because that is how he sees her IRL. Nothing more. There is no hot, smoking romance there, unless you want to say John is in love with his male buddies. There IS a bond of strong friendship and love that soldiers have for each other, but it is very different from the bond/love between a man and a woman. . and that you want to see between Shep/Teyla. Most fans really don't want to go there, so please have some respect for people who see things differently. You don't need to be ripping off arms with every post.

If there was anything I could remotely call "ship" in this episode, it was the scene in the end where Ronon yelled for Teyla. He saw Teyla as normal, and was trying to rescue her from what he thought was a Wraith. THAT I would call "ship" before I would say Teyla and Shep scenes were, and that's my opinion.

lily
September 16th, 2006, 08:28 AM
Time to read others comments after posting mine :)

Some fans felt dissapointed at Shep's backstory... Well, all I can say is that I loved the way it was done, and I wasn't expecting more than some tidbits, like the ones we actually had. If others expected more screen time, I can understand the disappointment. But personally I loved the way it was done.

I've watched Paradise Lost and liked it, and while I can see the connection about hallucinations and shooting each other, I think Phantoms is different enough. In fact I didn't think of Paradise Lost when watching Phantoms at all. Anyway, I think this epi was much better that PL, by far.



Besides "Irrisistable," this season has kicked ass!

Tonight's episode even beat Sateda! OMG, WAS TEYLA AWESOME! Don't have time for a review yet, but I'd just like to take this moment to say . . . Squee, baby. Very squee!

*contemplating Top Five episodes of this season*

1.) Real World
2.) Common Ground
3.) Phantoms
4.) Sateda
5.) Progeny


I disagree about Irresistible. I liked it very much and already watched it 6 times. But I agree about s3. This season rocks so far. And I agree about this epi beating Sateda (and I loved Sateda).

It's hard to pick just 5 epis this season, because I loved them all (some a bit more than others, but not by much). I liked The Real World a lot (9/10 for that one), but I liked McKay and Mrs Miller a bit more (10/10) so my top 5 epis of this season would be


1.) Common Ground
2.) Phantoms
3.) Progeny
4.) McKay and Mrs Miller
5.) Sateda

All these are excellent in my book, and they are all close to each other, so they could all share a first place as well. All 10s out of 10.


She didn't have as many scenes as I would have liked. The entire episode centered really around Carson and Sheppard. Teyla was pretty much listening to Shep's ramblings and trying to convince him that everything he's seeing isn't real. Well, I'm a fan of all the regular characters (sure, Shep is my top fave, but all the others come in a very very close second place. I love them all). Personally, I see this as a team-centric epi more than anything else.


Yeah, I wouldn't call it backstory either. They just showed us what we already knew. I thought it nice to actually see it but it didn't add anything. I actually see it as something new. So far we had gotten a couple of references to John's past in canon in Rising and Home, but nothing showed on screen.

In Rising, Elizabeth tells Jack "I know about the whole supposed black mark in Afghanistan. He was trying to save the lives of 3 servicemen"

In Home we had 2 characters (Mitch and Dex). They tell a story about a mission, flying choppers over a bridge , and saving the lives of a Special Ops team. Shep also says that 3 days later Mitch and Dex were killed on another mission. Shep says "they took an RPG when it touch down for med-evac. There was barely enough left to bring back for a military funeral".

Then we had the backsoty in Phantoms (no bridges there, no Mitch, no Dex. A different mission that the one mentioned in Home). And there's no indication that any of these two missions was the one that got Shep the black mark. The way I see it, John flew choppers in Afghanistan, flying in search and rescue (several S&R missions at least). It seems to me that he was hallucinating about a different mission than the one mentioned in previous epis. My take is that this was in fact something new.

BTW, we also got a short story about his past in one of the Stargate magazine issues a while ago, but that's not considered canon. The Fandemonium novels as well as the short stories published in the official magazine can't contradict anything already established in canon (in the actual episodes) at the moment they're written, but any future episode can contradicts anything told in the novels/short stories. One of the Fandemonium authors (don't remember who) said that and it's logical.

I better post this before reading more comments. This is a long enough post already :D

stubadingdong
September 16th, 2006, 08:30 AM
You act that when John was thinking Teyla was a guy that it was just any guy. That's his bloody mate that died in combat. Crap man, that stuff is deep. That's someone John honored to watch his back and then went through hell and high water to save, further more risked his career and life to save...dude that's not just any guy or 'a guy'. For John to hold Teyla in that kind of esteem; to see EVERYONE but her as an enemy that's really out of control and says something that really no one can deny. That's a place of bloody honor. No one has that privilege, and on top of that Teyla has access to his inner sanctum.

I think that John would have the same hallucination regardless of who got shot with him. It has nothing to do with Teyla personally. If it was Ronon or Rodney or Carson, John would have had the same vision, methinks.

What inner sanctum? I don't understand this depth you see. There must have been some straws lying around here...

lily
September 16th, 2006, 09:16 AM
Vaberella, I guess we disagree about Torri's hair. I love Torri's hairstyle this season and this epi was no exception. I hope she keeps it this way :D



-Ah Rodney, back to snarking and being pissy after a chance for some growth post-M&MM. Still, his hand on Carson's shoulder was quite touching. And I loved his flying leap to avoid the explosion that...never happened.

Oh, I think we continue to see how Rodney has changed since he stepped into the Pegasus Galaxy. When he's carrying the injured Marine and the Marine tells him that he's sorry Rodney has to carry him on a stretcher, and Rodney replies "Don't worry about me. Just hang in there, OK?". That line itself speaks volumes, IMHO.



Quick quesiton: The marine that survived asked twice after McKay when he was injured.

After he's first injured and being carried back to the cave he says "I'm sorry about this Dr. McKay." to which mcKay answered "Don't worry about me," etc.

Then when they're in the cave he asks Beckett "How's Dr. McKay?"

So the question is: how does the marine know mckay? Have we seen him in another episode? I was just thinking it was odd that he kept asking if McKay was alright.
In a previous scene, when they were carrying the dead bodies on the stretchers, Rodney was complaining about it. So then the injured Marine felt bad about Rodney having to carry him now.

JaguarJG
September 16th, 2006, 09:26 AM
The route they went with Carson was Great. It is rare for me to be suprised. I kind of figured he would be haunted by the soldier he was working on. especially after his hand moved.

Just out of curiosity did this episode make anyone else think of the suicide squid on Red Dwarf?

emergencyfan
September 16th, 2006, 09:27 AM
I'm sorry, while I liked the episode in general, the ending was very disjointed and fragmented and seemed to be lacking a bit in common sense (though the dialogue was fun).

What's with not sending a puddlejumper to rescue them after the machine's been turned off? Looks like there was enough room for it to me--it's made some pretty tight maneuvers through the gate before. Even if there was no power to the gate (on their end) because of the damaged DHD, Atlantis could have sent through some Naquedah generators on the pj for power and at least sent home the wounded.

Where did Carson do the soldier's adnominal surgery--in the dark unsterile cave or the dank unsterile forest? Supposedly that injury was confirmed before the team started seeing things.

Who's the new chick in the gateroom? I'm attached to Peter Grodin's Canadian replacement (even if the PTB haven't give him a name).

caty
September 16th, 2006, 09:34 AM
Ok, I have a question: Why does the team even wear their vests? They seem no good for anything but a supply storage..

Or aren't they supposed to be bullet proof?

JaguarJG
September 16th, 2006, 09:54 AM
Did anyone else find it funny that McKay was telling Beckett about brain chemistry. Gee, being a doctor I would hope he'd know that stuff already. But thats so McKay.

doylefan22
September 16th, 2006, 09:56 AM
Very solid episode. Much better than I thought it would be actually. I expected 'okay' and got 'pretty damn good'. Mainly I think due to Carson and Rodney's scenes - the episode wouldn't have been half as good without them and they contrasted well with the action.

Carson's stuff was so eerie - I certainly didn't see the twist in his part of the story coming. It was great also to see Binder really working on showing those little improvements in Rodney's character - yes he's still whiny, irritable and tetchy but he also shows a lot of compassion and concern for the injured soliders and Carson which was great to see.

I'm with the camp that says the mission mentioned in 'Home' was certainly not this one. It seems as if Sheppard was working S&R (which really reinforces his 'we don't leave anyone behind' stance) and the mission mentioned in 'Home' was part of that. The discrepancy between here and what was said in 'Rising' could be easily explained - he went out after three men and only found one alive, hiding in a Russian helicopter away from his original crash site. The other two weren't there because they died in the crash. By no means is this gospel truth but it's also not fair on the writer to point and shout 'plot hole!' with something that can be so very easily explained.


John saw Teyla as his buddy because that is how he sees her IRL. Nothing more. There is no hot, smoking romance there, unless you want to say John is in love with his male buddies. There IS a bond of strong friendship and love that soldiers have for each other, but it is very different from the bond/love between a man and a woman. . and that you want to see between Shep/Teyla.

See, I don't like the idea of telling anyone their ship or ship ideas are definitely wrong. There are no definites because the relationships between the characters are open to interpretation. I personally don't see the Sheppard/Weir thing at all in the slightest, but I wouldn't say those supporting it are definitely wrong and it would never happen. There are no certainties, only interpretations. From the beginning, before I got involved in all this lovely, crazy fandom stuff, I got the impression that Sheppard and Teyla were certainly physically attracted to one another and were becoming good friends but because of circumstance they would never consider taking it further - they don't think about each other in that way because it's not feasible. Were things different though then I could see them being a couple because their characters appear compatible in that way. There's an undercurrent there that suggests there could be something more. Different people see different things. I've always looked upon Rodney and Elizabeth and seen something very interesting - he's so much different and kinder around her and she seems to understand him and look after him very well. Some people most likely think that's absolutely crazy but they've always politely disagreed. I just think it's rather dodgy ground to dismiss out of hand what the characters truly think about one another as we just don't know.

Oh, and for the record I like Elizabeth's longer hair. And if Teyla's clothes are not and should be an issue then nor should Elizabeth's hairstyle!

Pocus
September 16th, 2006, 09:57 AM
I liked this episode. It kept me awake for the whole hour and that is saying something because of the stupid cold I am fighting! It had continous action, team and individual. There was insight into characters personalities. I loved the way it was filmed. I thought some of the begining closeups were slightly distorted which led well into the warped realities that most of them faced.

Sheppard's backstory seemed to be a visualization of things we already knew, but to me, it was nice to see it on film. And yes, I think he does look very, very nice in desert uniform. I thought it was interesting to see the stubborn side of him show up when Holland said he thought they were going the wrong direction and possibly heading for an enemy area. Great acting on JF's part for the line "West huh?" I like how his "reality" reaffirmed his dedication to team and bringing everyone back, no matter what.

Ronon's "reality" was just kind of there. It did not seem to do much but allow for gun fire and chasing. Not that there is anything wrong with that. We know destroying the Wraith is everything to him.

Carson's and Rodney's "realities" were subtle and well done. They seemed to incorporate their individual doubts that they can do the job they need to do. Carson seems to face many medical situations that he never trained for and he is determined to lose as few people as possible. Some slip thru the cracks, but he is doing his darndest for all of them. Rodney acts as though he is the only one who can do the job (and most likely he is right) but that puts all the pressure on him to do his job right EVERY TIME. What about the time he fails to accomplish his task? He does not want to contemplate that thought.

I loved how Teyla was unaffected. She was the voice of reason in a crazy world. RL did an awesome job portraying frustration, determination, and the ability to adapt to the situation. It was great for Teyla to play into Shep's vision and get him to do what she needed him to do.

The end was great. I love when a serious episode ends on a light note. It makes things seem all wrapped up to me.

Linzi
September 16th, 2006, 10:27 AM
I think that John would have the same hallucination regardless of who got shot with him. It has nothing to do with Teyla personally. If it was Ronon or Rodney or Carson, John would have had the same vision, methinks.


Agreed. It was nice it was Teyla because she's not had much to do this season, and her and Shep's friendship needs to be explored. However, as far as I can see there's no irritating, annoying and troublesome ship anywhere in SGA at the moment. It's just in some people's heads, which is fine as long as people don't try to foist it on me. I see just friendship and the odd bit of sexual tension. Long may it stay that way.

vaberella
September 16th, 2006, 10:35 AM
I think that John would have the same hallucination regardless of who got shot with him. It has nothing to do with Teyla personally. If it was Ronon or Rodney or Carson, John would have had the same vision, methinks.

What inner sanctum? I don't understand this depth you see. There must have been some straws lying around here...

Ronon was there when they got shot at, Teyla was unfortunately the one that got shot. But did he see Ronon as a friend?! No, he turned out to be the enemy, they all turned out to be the enemy BUT Teyla. Hence the major difference. He shot Rodney and was going to finish the job. It's of course debatable whether or not he would have acted the same with the others as he did with TEyla...but it's apparent that he didn't see them the same way, as again Ronon was there and he became the enemy. Much like Ronon saw John as the enemy. That means in essence he trusted Teyla the most out of everyone.

Of course there's a depth....he compared her to his friend. He was at war in his head, having a crazy hallucinations and Teyla was there to see all that, and he still looked her in the eye when she addressed him about what happened and he told her. Most of the time he normally blows these things off---further more, Teyla was able to work with the hallucinations and get him to help her destroy that bloody machine and he trusted her. That says a bloody lot. The man was tortured, and she saw that, it was a raped intrusion but it was there and it happened. On that level the episode was emotionally charged and tells you on a level people see others. Most of everyone else, excludig Carson and McKay, and Teyla saw enemy's. Ronon was on a rampage. First time around he saw two wraith running in the woods, and then towards the end he saw Teyla and a Wraith....but he saw Teyla---shows who Ronon trusts above all else as well.

VB

nclowe
September 16th, 2006, 10:37 AM
This episode was rather cool. I thought the Sheppard flashbacks were ok, but nothing amazing. Rather I liked the Sheppard/Teyla interactions once Sheppard had gone all wacko. That was played very well.

But poor Rodney getting shot! (pretends she didn't secretly enjoy the angst). That had to be my favourite scene of the whole episode simply because of the suddeness of it. Right up until the last second I didn't think Sheppard would actually shoot anyone seriously because Stargate never really goes 'that way' (unlike BSG which beats the living cr*p out of everyone on a weekly basis).

However it looked to me like Rodney got shot in the chest, though later Beckett has applied a dressing to his side... Anyone else spot that or was I making it up?

stubadingdong
September 16th, 2006, 10:47 AM
Ronon was there when they got shot at, Teyla was unfortunately the one that got shot. But did he see Ronon as a friend?! No, he turned out to be the enemy, they all turned out to be the enemy BUT Teyla. Hence the major difference. He shot Rodney and was going to finish the job. It's of course debatable whether or not he would have acted the same with the others as he did with TEyla...but it's apparent that he didn't see them the same way, as again Ronon was there and he became the enemy. Much like Ronon saw John as the enemy. That means in essence he trusted Teyla the most out of everyone.

Sheppard got Teyla away from everyone, then started his hallucination. It wasn't an immediate thing upon Teyla's injury. He still was in possession of his faculties upon finding the shelter Major Leonard (that was his name, right?) built. That justification doesn't make sense to me. He trusted Teyla because he thought she was Holland, the man he was rescuing.


Of course there's a depth....he compared her to his friend. He was at war in his head, having a crazy hallucinations and Teyla was there to see all that, and he still looked her in the eye when she addressed him about what happened and he told her. Most of the time he normally blows these things off---further more, Teyla was able to work with the hallucinations and get him to help her destroy that bloody machine and he trusted her. That says a bloody lot. The man was tortured, and she saw that, it was a raped intrusion but it was there and it happened. On that level the episode was emotionally charged and tells you on a level people see others. Most of everyone else, excludig Carson and McKay, and Teyla saw enemy's. Ronon was on a rampage. First time around he saw two wraith running in the woods, and then towards the end he saw Teyla and a Wraith....but he saw Teyla---shows who Ronon trusts above all else as well.

VB

Sorry. I don't think it says a lot. He wasn't comparing Teyla to his friend. He was hallucinating that the person with him was someone else. Again, nothing to do with Teyla personally. I think John is growing up. He's getting more comfortable with his team because for the first time in what appears to be a long while he's got a family. And to me it seems like he's beginning to realize that he can let these people in. I don't see Teyla as being anything exceptional. I'm not denying that they have a nice bond of friendship, but I can't see it as anything more than he has with Rodney, Elizabeth and Ronon. It's just banging home the family theme of season three.

We'll just have to agree to disagree.

EdenSG
September 16th, 2006, 11:03 AM
Really good episode!
I liked Sateda and Common Ground much more but this was still really good.
Loved the action, the angst, character moments etc.

I thought the story was very well written and the direction top notch. Liked the filming technique - fit perfectly with the story.

I felt there was a lot of tension in the episode (example would be when Sheppard is trying to convince Leonard who he is but then he blows himself up), some creepiness (the whole scene with Carson and the soldier who he thought was alive but was really dead – creepy and it genuinely surprised me) and a lot of “little” moments between characters, especially Carson and Rodney and John and Teyla.

Thought it was really good how each individuals hallucinations played into their own fear and/insecurities. Ronan vs. the Wraith, made me think of Sateda and the horror and desperation he experienced there. Then we have Sheppard in Afghanistan and his desperate yet futile attempts to try to protect and save a friend. Rodney’s hallucination made me think of Trinity – playing into his fear of causing another catastrophic explosion. And Carson – just loved him in this episode. He is the dedicated doctor who will always go to great lengths to save someone –and his hallucination seemed to play into a fear of not being able to save someone or perhaps missing “something” that might cause another person harm or even death. To learn in the end that it was the other black soldier that had died and he had not “seen” it and therefore did not do anything to help I think was very difficult for him.

(Note: I saw very few similarities between this and “Paradise Lost”. I think overall they are two very different stories)

Sheppard: Great acting by JF. I thought when Sheppard first saw Holland instead of Teyla – right after Teyla was shot, than saw Teyla again - you could just see and feel how unnerved he was by it. And I think he was unnerved not only because he realized he saw someone that wasn’t really there but that it was someone from a very painful and difficult time in his life. The subsequent scenes with his buddy in Afghanistan – you could really sense the desperation he felt to save him. (Note: The backstory was pretty much exactly what I expected. I had read spoilers and some mag articles on the show – there was not a lot of back story promised – just some helicopters and flashback scenes to that mission in Afghanistan. I think a lot of the hype about backstory was people talking it up in the forums.) I thought John’s experience in Afghanistan really played well into the story and into his character. It was very well done. Though there wasn’t a lot of new info about Sheppard we did get to “see” what happened and it provided a good illustration of Sheppard’s character and his beliefs. (don’t leave anyone behind, feels a strong sense of obligation to protect/save those around him – especially those that he deeply cares about and his willingness to go with his own gut feeling/decisions rather than obey orders).

Ronon: Right in character – hates the Wraith, wants to kill the Wraith. I thought this could have been played up a little more.

Teyla: Good to see her have a bit more to do – would have liked even more. She gets to save the day in the end. Good interaction with John – really shows the friendship those two have. This season he has been able to share more personal stuff with her (Sateda and this episode). I think the fact she was able to somewhat reach him in the end – when she trying to convince him to take her into the cave and then once in there when she needed his help to disable the Wraith device - was because the one thing that was the same between she and Holland was the strong friendship, camaraderie and trust John had/has for both of them. I think that is why she was able to bridge the gap between his hallucination and reality and I think this was illustrated in the cave as she was trying to convince him to grab the cable he had that flashback moment when he saw Holland talking. RL did a fine job acting.

Rodney: Still very typical – high strung, brilliant, snarky at times but a bit more reserved in this episode than some previous ones. He also showed his concern for the injured soldiers. I do think Rodney’s character has shown some growth this season. I liked the interaction with him and Carson in the cave – at times adversarial, at times supportive and times just plain needing each other. And Rodney got shot by Sheppard! And it wasn’t just a nick it was a shot in the gut. It did cause an “OMG I can’t believe that” moment. I think we are going to hear Rodney say to Sheppard “You shot me!” in many more episodes to come.

Carson: Really good to see his character have such a strong presence – the hallucination he suffered was especially poignant because it really played into his emotions and feelings as a doctor (and a person) and the fact that while he tried so desperately to “save” the life of the one soldier it was the other one who was dying. The horror of his expression when he realized what happened was so dramatic. Then when John found him and the one soldier in the woods, you could still see the pain and despair on Carson’s face. The way he was holding on to that soldier I felt like he was he was just trying to hold in the life of the soldier. So very glad that the soldier survived. Excellent acting by Paul McG.

Rating: 8/10

lily
September 16th, 2006, 11:06 AM
I'm sorry, while I liked the episode in general, the ending was very disjointed and fragmented and seemed to be lacking a bit in common sense (though the dialogue was fun).

Disjointed and fragmented? I certainly don't see it that way. I ADORED the ending. But that's OK. To each her/his own. :D



What's with not sending a puddlejumper to rescue them after the machine's been turned off? Looks like there was enough room for it to me--it's made some pretty tight maneuvers through the gate before. Even if there was no power to the gate (on their end) because of the damaged DHD, Atlantis could have sent through some Naquedah generators on the pj for power and at least sent home the wounded.

The way I see it, the PJ can't go into hyper space. The Daedalus can. We don't know how far the closest gate was. Maybe too far for the jumper to dial that gate and then fly to the planet. As of sending the PJ through the planet's own gate with some generators... well, they could've tried. But if anything went wrong and couldn't dial the gate, then they would have more people stuck there, plus a jumper. Or maybe RecycledFunk is right, the area around the stargate was heavily wooded and maybe there wasn't enough room for the PJ. Don't know... It didn't bother me and still doesn't bother me, though.


I enjoyed Phantoms very much. Not the best of season 3, Common Ground and Sateda are so far for me, but still very strong and incredibly entertaining.
While I like Common Ground a bit more than Phantoms, I like Phantoms more than Sateda (and I loved Sateda, I just love Phantoms and Common Ground even more). For me Phantoms was a very strong epi, with lots of angst and enough twists to keep me guessing.


I didn't think this was ANYTHING like any SG1 episode I've ever seen...certainly not Paradise Lost, and definitely not a re-working of it, though nothing is truly original, how can it be?
Exactly. I can see as some might see the hallucinations similar, but other that that, a completely different epi. And as you said, nothing is truly original. Just because both episodes have hallucinations involved doesn't make them similar. Heck, I didn't even think of PL when watching Phantoms. Not even once.



Okay.The plot. I thought it was good, not exactly what I expected, but tense and disturbing in places.
Sheppard. I liked his backstory here. No, it wasn't anything Earth shattering that was revealed, but I didn't expect it to be! Let's be honest, a lot of us Sheppard fans have hypothesised to death the Afghanistan incident, and it played out pretty much as I expected it to. Still, it's really nice to see it on screen, to see some of what happened in canon. As usual, Joe put in a great performance, and I enjoyed seeing him running around doing the action stuff he loves so much - very entertaining, especially the desert fatigues,lol! I particularly enjoyed Sheppard's interaction with Teyla. Those two have developed a very strong bond, which is nice to see.
I liked Teyla in this episode. It was great to see Rachel Luttrell getting to play an important part here; trying to get through to her friend. I liked the way she did manage to convince Sheppard to help disconnect the wraith device, and in my eyes their mutual trust has been strengthened. Great character stuff.
Ronon didn't get to do much but run around, but that was fine; the emphasis was on Sheppard's hallucinations, and I was happy with that.
Rodney was good. Ireally enjoyed his disbelief at being shot by Sheppard.
Beckett was good here too, though it was a little spooky how the marine's were alive/dead!

I agree. While the plot was nothing huge, I think it had enough twists to keep it interesting. The strenght of this epi comes from the character and team interaction. IMHO, Phantoms excelled in character stuff.
As I said, Shep is my top fave, but I love all the other characters. They all come in a very close second place, so I always enjoy any character moment.
I liked Shep's backstory and wasn't disappointed by it. I loved the John/Teyla interaction, and both characters were great. I'm neither a shipper nor a slasher (if I had to really really choose a romantic pairing, I would always go for John/Elizabeth, but only for artwork (wallpapers, etc). NEVER ever in canon. I'm against ANY romantic pairing in canon. I'm a huge fan of just friendship and team bonding. Heck, I don't even like ship fics. I only read gen fanfics).
I loved Rodney. Besides, the whole thing about being shot by John, I also loved when he told the injured Marine to just hang in there, and the scenes with Carson in the cave, and when he jumps out of the cave and realized that he was also starting to imaging things.
I loved Carson here too. I think we got fantastic character moments for him. I loved the Marines alive/dead twist. At some point, I wasn't sure what part was allucination and what part wasn't.


I particularly enjoyed the closing scenes. We find out Holland didn't make it, I presumed he had, so that was pretty sad, and explains much about Sheppard and the way he never wants to leave a man behind, always wanting to save everybody. I loved Sheppard's last line to Rodney and the exhasperation in his voice. Very amusing.
Oh, I adored the last scene. It was perfect, IMHO.


On first viewing I give this 8/10, though that may change after subsequent viewings. Another strong episode. Season 3 is shaping up just as I had hoped.
Oh, I agree about being a strong epi. Only that in my case on first viewing I give it a 10/10. Like you, that might change after subsequent viewings.


Final note on the hair thing. Personally, I like Weir's longer style, I see it as much more flattering. But, I don't think it matters two hoots what a characters hair looks like, but people are free to comment if they so wish, surely? Seems pretty trivial to me in the scheme of things, though.
Oh, I agree. I sometimes talk about how much I like a character's hairstyle here or there (like I did with Elizabeth's hair here. As I said, I love her current hairstyle), but I agree with you. A character's hairstyle is not relevant to any episode, and I would never think more or less of an episode because of what anyone's hair looks like.


At times, ALL of SGA's characters have been torn to shreds here, sometimes some great observations have been made, and it isn't necessarily nice to read things that you find upsetting about your favourite character, is it? But, they aren't real, so what does it matter? I've learned to ignore negative things that I consider petty, unless, of course actors get dragged into the negativity. Perhaps posters should think about that in the future when making 'mean' comments about characters who are not their favourites, before they complain about others criticising their favourites. After all one person's favourite isn't necessarily anothers...
And imagine in my case, that I love ALL the regular characters. I usually avoid characters and episodes threads (hadn't read an epi thread in detail in a long time) because of this. Don't get me wrong. I think it's great to discuss the epis, etc. But lots of times I admit that I find hard enough to ignore negative things that I consider petty. It seems that if you go into a character X discussion thread, you find petty anti character Y comments there too. The same with pairings. As I said, I love all the regular characters 100% (John, Rodney, Elizabeth, Teyla, Ronon and Carson). I love all of them to bits, so I get tired when I read fans of a certain character making uncalled nasty remarks about another character, just because it isn't her/his fave. So I tend to avoid reading in detail the characters and epis threads.

<Edited for typos>

Also ETA:


I'm with the camp that says the mission mentioned in 'Home' was certainly not this one. It seems as if Sheppard was working S&R (which really reinforces his 'we don't leave anyone behind' stance) and the mission mentioned in 'Home' was part of that. The discrepancy between here and what was said in 'Rising' could be easily explained - he went out after three men and only found one alive, hiding in a Russian helicopter away from his original crash site. The other two weren't there because they died in the crash. By no means is this gospel truth but it's also not fair on the writer to point and shout 'plot hole!' with something that can be so very easily explained.
I agree 10000000000000000% :D


And if Teyla's clothes are not and should be an issue then nor should Elizabeth's hairstyle!
Exacly. Personally, I've never had a problem with Teyla's clothes. It's not an issue for me. I've never seen anything wrong or out of place regarding Teyla's clothes, , and I just don't get all the fuss about them (and before anyone says "typical male teenager thoughts", I'm a woman, and I'll be 36 in a few weeks. Thank you). I already commented on Elizabeth's hair, so I have nothing to add.

Southern Red
September 16th, 2006, 11:14 AM
Sheppard got Teyla away from everyone, then started his hallucination. It wasn't an immediate thing upon Teyla's injury. He still was in possession of his faculties upon finding the shelter Major Leonard (that was his name, right?) built. That justification doesn't make sense to me. He trusted Teyla because he thought she was Holland, the man he was rescuing.



Sorry. I don't think it says a lot. He wasn't comparing Teyla to his friend. He was hallucinating that the person with him was someone else. Again, nothing to do with Teyla personally. I think John is growing up. He's getting more comfortable with his team because for the first time in what appears to be a long while he's got a family. And to me it seems like he's beginning to realize that he can let these people in. I don't see Teyla as being anything exceptional. I'm not denying that they have a nice bond of friendship, but I can't see it as anything more than he has with Rodney, Elizabeth and Ronon. It's just banging home the family theme of season three.

We'll just have to agree to disagree.


Very well explained. I think he saw Teyla as the man he was trying to rescue because she was injured. Simple transference. And did they make it clear that Holland was Shep's close friend or was it just a band of brothers kind of thing? Teyla was simply convenient and was smart to play into his hallucinations at times. I'm sure she has had plenty of experience with people having Wraith induced hallucinations. He answered her direct question about the survival of Holland. I'm sure if another member of the team asked him a direct question, he would also answer them. I loved the way she reassured him that this rescue had been successful. It seems like she was connecting herself with his fallen comrade. Another great team bonding moment.

I would also like to ask that we try to leave our ship prejudices out of this thread. I cringe at the idea that TPTB will come in here to find out how we liked this episode and find us pushing our ship while defying all logic and laws of observation. Not that any of us are guilty of that, of course.;)

GateLadyM
September 16th, 2006, 11:20 AM
This was a good episode, not a great one. I do see the similarities with Paradise Lost, but this was better and involved the whole team instead of just Jack and Harry trapped on a planet together.

Beckett was by far the most interesting for me, with his dead/not dead dilemmas.

I don't see any romantic angles between Sheppard and Teyla here. They are team mates and friends. That's what I got out of it. I saw so many shippers pounding on poor BamBam about this episode and when they were going to get "sheyla moments" that I had to stop reading his thread. After this episode I hope they learned their lesson and will just watch the show, enjoy it, and carry on their romances in fan fic. Personally I'm not interested in "sheyla moments", I like the team dynamic as it is.

Poor Ronon didn't get much to do, unfortunately. Would have been interesting to see him shoot Sheppard in the end instead of Sheppard shooting McKay. Poor McKay, always picked on. ;)

Teyla finally got something to do, but like some others, it would have been fun to see her smack Sheppard to get his attention in the end. The pain would have shaken him back to reality perhaps. I did get tired of hearing her yell, "John" every 30 seconds. It felt like she did it 500 times, and that was 498 times too many.

I'd give this a 6 or 7 out of ten. Haven't decided yet. Maybe a 7, because Beckett was so good.

bluealien
September 16th, 2006, 11:23 AM
See, I don't like the idea of telling anyone their ship or ship ideas are definitely wrong. There are no definites because the relationships between the characters are open to interpretation. I personally don't see the Sheppard/Weir thing at all in the slightest, but I wouldn't say those supporting it are definitely wrong and it would never happen. There are no certainties, only interpretations. From the beginning, before I got involved in all this lovely, crazy fandom stuff, I got the impression that Sheppard and Teyla were certainly physically attracted to one another and were becoming good friends but because of circumstance they would never consider taking it further - they don't think about each other in that way because it's not feasible. Were things different though then I could see them being a couple because their characters appear compatible in that way. There's an undercurrent there that suggests there could be something more. Different people see different things. I've always looked upon Rodney and Elizabeth and seen something very interesting - he's so much different and kinder around her and she seems to understand him and look after him very well. Some people most likely think that's absolutely crazy but they've always politely disagreed. I just think it's rather dodgy ground to dismiss out of hand what the characters truly think about one another as we just don't know.

Oh, and for the record I like Elizabeth's longer hair. And if Teyla's clothes are not and should be an issue then nor should Elizabeth's hairstyle!


Very well said doylefan

It would be nice if we could the shipping remarks out of this thread.


I thought the ep was excellent - I was enthralled throughout the entire episode. I loved how everyone was effected and it was a great team ep, and team eps are my favourite. I really enjoyed the Afghanistan scenes eventhough I'm not really all that bothered about backstory. Everyone did a great job. Teyla was great here and I liked how she got through to John in the end to disable the Wraith device.

Carson and Rodney were also great and I loved how Rodney kept saying that Sheppard shot him. It was pretty creepy in places and the part with the marine was pretty sad - poor Carson.

As I enjoyed all of this ep and have no complaints - I'm giving it a 10/10

Definitely up there with Sateda and Common Ground.

Callie
September 16th, 2006, 11:29 AM
However it looked to me like Rodney got shot in the chest, though later Beckett has applied a dressing to his side... Anyone else spot that or was I making it up?

I rewound and froze the image several times and the bullet definitely hit Rodney lower than the chest, so the dressing was in the right place!

I got puzzled by the dead marines and the film images. The camera recording shows Largent running on for a short while after his team mate is shot, but the three bodies are close together when Teyla finds them. Also, Rodney finds the camera a short distance away from the bodies, but the recording seems to indicate that Largent fell with the camera still attached him. Did Leonard do some tidying up after he killed everyone?!

BTW, how much teasing must Largent have had during the time when he was a sergeant? ;-)

NotAscended
September 16th, 2006, 11:53 AM
I think he saw Teyla as the man he was trying to rescue because she was injured. Simple transference.

Agreed. I also think John's hallucination might have been different if the situation had been different. I think the fact that Teyla was injured pre-hallucination simply set the stage for that particular past situation to be relived for him. If Teyla had been uninjured and the two of them were able bodied and trying to capture Leonard, he might have experienced a different scenario.

I think it was also telling about Ronan's character that when he saw John helping an injured Teyla, it prompted an hallucination of a Wraith carrying off his teammate. I think it shows how he's grown attached to the team and fears for their safety above his own. S2 Ronan probably would have had a different hallucination in the same situation.

And poor Carson! Even after Rodney points out the dead Marine to him, Carson continues to hallucinate that he's alive and walking. Between remembering this event and all the other things that have happened to him since coming to Atlantis, I keep expecting the man to have a nervous breakdown.


I haven't rewatched the episode yet, but I think it's definitely one for rewatching to try to understand what it is about the character's motivations that produced the specific hallucinations they experienced when they experienced them. While at first glance, this episode seems somewhat superficial, I think Carl Binder slipped in a lot more about the character's development than I realized.

doylefan22
September 16th, 2006, 12:14 PM
Very well said doylefan

It would be nice if we could the shipping remarks out of this thread.

Ta.

And I agree. I'm not particularly for shipping in the show but I wouldn't have an aneurism if it was done well. I'm fairly ship neutral and don't support a ship that's been 'at war' with any others (McKay/Weir is the easy going ship, don't you know? :D ) so I've never got into the whole ship wars thing. But, as the situation stands at the moment, I think shipping issues are more suited and best left to their own thread because for many it's too contentious.


While at first glance, this episode seems somewhat superficial, I think Carl Binder slipped in a lot more about the character's development than I realized.

I was surprised about the amount of character development in this as I thought it would be a filler type episode. I was particularly impressed in how he wrote this new, more caring but still snarky Rodney that we've bee seeing more of this series. From Carson's remarks in 'Sateda' to how he was surprised Rodney had come on the mission to rescue Ronon, through his concern for Elizabeth in 'Progeny' and to all he went through in 'McKay and Mrs Miller', I've been particularly impressed with what they've been doing with Rodney this season and the continuity shown.

OORAH_DEVILDOG_USMC
September 16th, 2006, 12:17 PM
You know, I can't help but feel alittle put off by last nights ep. The story was nothing new, and highly predictible. However the thing that really got me is how the costume department and prop department really dropped the ball on the uniforms and weapons once again. Now while I would like to go into greater detail as to why this bugs me, unfortunately it's a minor gripe that I have and won't let it upset the rest of forum.

Fatewarns
September 16th, 2006, 12:20 PM
7 It was also cool how the guy helping Beckett had been dead a long time.

well if you think about that guy who was helping Beckett (his name Barroso) bled to death which is a slow and painful process. so that guy probably died when Beckett was helping the other guy with the big hole in his chest (name Lt. Kagan). Barroso probably sat there waiting for Beckett to help him as he slowly dies. And what's worse is that Lt. Kagan was alive the WHOLE time. so that's pretty depressing:(

FallenAngelII
September 16th, 2006, 12:20 PM
It was a very good episode. Nothing really bad about it. What I noted the most, though, was the fact that Radek's hair was slightly different and I hadn't noticed how long Elisabeth's hair's been getting 'til just now :P.

NotAscended
September 16th, 2006, 01:08 PM
well if you think about that guy who was helping Beckett (his name Barroso) bled to death which is a slow and painful process. so that guy probably died when Beckett was helping the other guy with the big hole in his chest (name Lt. Kagan). Barroso probably sat there waiting for Beckett to help him as he slowly dies. And what's worse is that Lt. Kagan was alive the WHOLE time. so that's pretty depressing:(

Yeah, can you imagine what both of them must have been hallucinating? At least all the others were still moving and able to do something in their hallucinations; both of the Marines just had to lay there while their minds warped out.

It was especially creepy when Carson put the sheet over Kagan. I can only imagine what awful thoughts he was having as someone covers you over and says you are dead.

Seastallion
September 16th, 2006, 01:26 PM
Not the best show, but it was okay. :) I enjoyed it mostly.

PG15
September 16th, 2006, 01:58 PM
And the powerhouse that is Atlantis Season 3 continues unabated! Ok, I'll admit, this episode was pretty damn slow at the beginning, but the emmy-worthy directing and the Beckett and Teyla moments more than made up for it.

So, as usual, the points of interest:

As I said, the Beckett moments were just wonderful. Paul really made the whole thing stand up more than just freaky writing. I didn't not expect the twist with Brussol (sp?) at all. Let me just say this: Paul plays "frustrated doctor" really well. :)

Then there is Teyla. I know a lot of shippers will see it their way, but I thought it was a great friend piece between her and Shep, especially the "trust speech" near the end. It's good to know that for once, Teyla saved the day.

We didn't get as much Shep backstory as I thought we would, but that's alright. I loved how they shifted between Hollan and Teyla. Like I said, the directing by Martin Wood was awesome.

The "McKay pot" returns! :D

I guess the thing that floored me the most was that it mostly involved our own people and didn't rely that much on guest stars. It was our people shooting at our people, which means you automatically cares for both sides of the conflict. Well done Carl Binder!

There's not much to say about this ep to be honest, except that it was pretty much gold all the way from the first act break to the end.

Score: 8.5/10

Ltcolshepjumper
September 16th, 2006, 02:01 PM
Did you notice how Teyla repeatedly called him 'John' throughout the episode?

PG15
September 16th, 2006, 02:32 PM
WOW! This has become my second fave Carl Binder epi ever, the first one being Common Ground (and this one is really a close second). What I love about Carl Binder episodes is that he always write great team interaction and gets all the characters. In particular in this epi everybody in the team had something to do.



Actually, Ken Culperus wrote "Common Ground"; he's new.

CalmStorm
September 16th, 2006, 03:08 PM
I realy liked this episode. So much so I've watched it twice already.

Most are talking about Shep's backstory and lack of, but I have to disagree somewhat with there being a lack of backstory. In the very first episode we learned that he had a black mark, and it was for trying to save soldiers against orders. We also learned in his chopper ride with O'Neill he can fly just about anything. We learned in Letters from Pegasus that he had no one he wanted to send a letter to back on Earth. We learned from Home that a base at Antartica had been his home for a while. We also learned from this episode that he lost 2 of his friends in a chopper related inncodent. We also know that he served in Afganistan. I think this is quite a bit of backstory. What is lacking in his backstory...why does he not have anyone back home? What about his family? That, to me is the only thing really lacking, and it may be sometime before that cat is let out of the bag.

I thoroughly enjoyed Shep's flashbacks. It was good to see him pre-stargate awareness. Also, I know it has been brought up in some other posts, but I'm one of the ones who believes that the Dex and Mitch innocodent is not related to this inncodent that he was flashing-back to. I think this (the flashback) is the inncodent that caused the black-mark, so I'm happy that we got to see that played-out.

Loved the part where McKay was shot...by Shep. Loved McKay's reaction.

Glad to see Beckett get some good quality screen time. Loved the scene at the end where he had snapped out of it and was holding the soldier. I thought for certain the soldier was dead, but was thrilled to see otherwise.

Bravo to RL in this one. Thought she did great. I think my favorite scene with her was towards then end too, when she saw that McKay was so close but did not complete it and then was able to get through to Shep to have him "pull the plug."

Great episode. :weiranime17:

Oka
September 16th, 2006, 03:23 PM
This episode is to me the worst episode of the season. I don't know what you guys liked about it. Heres my take:

Trite and ridiculous storyline, absolutely no suspense since you knew pretty much exactly what was going to happen (everyone but the SGA team dies, what a surprise!). Didn't progress the wraith or replicator storyline, i.e. a reset button episode (will Ronon and McKay still be shot in the next episode). At least Weir wasn't in it much.

It was one of those "Producer: Go into the woods of BC and shoot a cheap one" filler episodes that we've seen too many of already in Stargate.

3.5/10

Easter Lily
September 16th, 2006, 03:24 PM
I haven't rewatched the episode yet, but I think it's definitely one for rewatching to try to understand what it is about the character's motivations that produced the specific hallucinations they experienced when they experienced them. While at first glance, this episode seems somewhat superficial, I think Carl Binder slipped in a lot more about the character's development than I realized.
That I think is the real genius of this episode... how each individual character responded to the situation according to their experiences.
What also impressed me about the episode is how subtly the hallucinations took hold especially with Beckett... that was very cleverly done. They didn't all turn into immediate nutjobs but the hallucinations played with their greatest fears.
Ultimately, this was IMO, an extremely well-written team episode.

expendable_crewman
September 16th, 2006, 03:54 PM
The episode wasn't as dark as I thought it was going to be, but it was dark enough. With the Becket story, and the dead Marine slumped by the wall -- the one he didn't watch because he thought the man was up and about ... and the Marine with the trauma getting a sheet over his face ... what with the psychological issues that could come of it ... Honestly, this was the first time I thought the show should have been on at 10:00. Maybe it's me but the Beckett element just freaked me out. And Beckett out in the woods, holding the lieutenant? I'm still thinking about it.

Rodney isn't really alive. Sheppard would have killed him. With a close target like that, all Sheppard has to do is want to. But he can't kill Rodney, even when he thinks Rodney is ... someone trying to kill him ... I'm giving the ep a pass on that. Free pass on the dessert uniforms, too. I'm deciding the flaws were intentional, as in they were trying to show us all misses / leather boots + dessert uniform were caused by or part of the hallucination. [Updated] Teyla pushed Sheppard's weapon. Okay, I had to get some help on that one-- thanks!

They used almost everyone this ep. I could hug someone. Big grins watching Teyla tell Sheppard how to unplug the machine while she's looking at a laptop screen. Overall, the character interaction delivered some gems and I enjoyed the ep for getting everyone in on it.

IMO, we're not getting any down deep details about Sheppard. I'm giving up on it. We've got all we're going to get. Now, if they give us any, that'll be me falling off my chair, and I've got pretty good balance.

What they did give us worked for me in that it kept my attention. So what if I have more questions now than I did before? I guess that means for me Binder and Flanigan did a good job bringing it to my TV. Besides, I'm not bursting or anything to know how Sheppard escaped a court-martial or when / how during the rescue his friend died. The PTBs can keep that a secret if they'd like. Really.

I was pleased the episode had Sheppard wanting to get off the planet pretty fast and there was effort made to take back the dead. There I go again with these issues with the dead. Must be me.

Caty, I think the vests are for protection. Their P90 rounds are armor-piercing, so that about does it when they're shot by their own. The vests are for carrying stuff, too.

obsessed1
September 16th, 2006, 04:15 PM
I'm really not sure how I felt about this episode. It was dark and creepy and not as overly predictable as some people seem to think, but there were defintely parts that worked and didnt work. The ending, for instance, with Teyla convincing Sheppard to remove a wire that wasnt thre to him...i just couldnt see past that. It bothered me for some reason. WHy couldnt she do it? Her leg was shot, not her arms.

All of the actors portrayed their emotions immacualtely, Joe flanigan, in particular shone out.
The scene transitions from flashback to reality were really cool.

I really enjoyed the bits with Beckett. Paul was fantastic.
I did however think that the shooting at the end of Mckay was fairly gratuitous.


so some good, some bad....overall......i really dont know how i felt about this one..hmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmm?

bluealien
September 16th, 2006, 04:16 PM
Rodney isn't really alive. Sheppard would have killed him. With a close target like that, all Sheppard has to do is want to. But he can't kill Rodney, even when he thinks Rodney is ... someone trying to kill him ...

Sheppard aimed directly at him and probably would have killed him if Teyla hadn't pushed his gun away. She deflected the gun just as he fired.



They used almost everyone this ep. I could hug someone. Big grins watching Teyla tell Sheppard how to unplug the machine while she's looking at a laptop screen. Overall, the character interaction delivered some gems and I enjoyed the ep for getting everyone in on it.

Great moments from all the team and lovely character interaction.

Great episode.

PG15
September 16th, 2006, 04:23 PM
This episode is to me the worst episode of the season. I don't know what you guys liked about it. Heres my take:

Trite and ridiculous storyline, absolutely no suspense since you knew pretty much exactly what was going to happen (everyone but the SGA team dies, what a surprise!). Didn't progress the wraith or replicator storyline, i.e. a reset button episode (will Ronon and McKay still be shot in the next episode). At least Weir wasn't in it much.

It was one of those "Producer: Go into the woods of BC and shoot a cheap one" filler episodes that we've seen too many of already in Stargate.

3.5/10

You don't like the episode, fine. But if you think that any episode will end with a major character dying (which we will most definately know before hand), then you're...well, I guess I can say "naive".

doylefan22
September 16th, 2006, 04:43 PM
I did however think that the shooting at the end of Mckay was fairly gratuitous.

It was basically plot related. McKay had already realised his mistake and that he was hallucinating. He probably would have gone back in and stopped it himself had he not been shot. It was a way of incapacitating him so that Teyla could have her moment at the end.

Descent
September 16th, 2006, 04:55 PM
I was shocked when Mckay got shot...again. :P I mean, how many times are they going to torture Mckay before hes had enough. :mckay:

Mitchell82
September 16th, 2006, 05:16 PM
I must say I expected alot more bashing than there is. It did remind me of "Paradise Lost" an ep I really liked and even though it was similar it was very different IMO. I loved the whole I"m Shot" by Rodney and Sheppards backstory. I really thought this episode was well done and I forget who posted it but yes this season has kicked ass. I even loved Irresistable and can't wait for Irresponisble. I have loved both SG-1 and SGA form the begining and am still really enjoying it. Can't wait for next week! 10/10 for me.

TheUnknown
September 16th, 2006, 05:24 PM
I was shocked when Mckay got shot...again. :P I mean, how many times are they going to torture Mckay before hes had enough. :mckay:

And strangely no matter how many holes get blown into them, they never have any scars, lol.

expendable_crewman
September 16th, 2006, 05:40 PM
Sheppard aimed directly at him and probably would have killed him if Teyla hadn't pushed his gun away. She deflected the gun just as he fired.I checked it out and you're 100% right.

Since I was there I just went ahead and rewatched the ep. I think I liked it even more on second viewing. Dark and creepy.

NotAscended
September 16th, 2006, 05:56 PM
IMO, we're not getting any down deep details about Sheppard. I'm giving up on it. We've got all we're going to get. Now, if they give us any, that'll be me falling off my chair, and I've got pretty good balance.

What they did give us worked for me in that it kept my attention. So what if I have more questions now than I did before? I guess that means for me Binder and Flanigan did a good job bringing it to my TV. Besides, I'm not bursting or anything to know how Sheppard escaped a court-martial or when / how during the rescue his friend died. The PTBs can keep that a secret if they'd like. Really.

I was pleased the episode had Sheppard wanting to get off the planet pretty fast and there was effort made to take back the dead. There I go again with these issues with the dead. Must be me.



I agree with all these points; the issues with the dead aren't yours alone. I thought it was particularly telling that not only did he think it important to get the dead back, but that his first reaction after Leonard blew himself up was that he had to get the dog tags. It's all about not leaving anyone behind, which seems to be John's strongest core value.

Like you, at this point, I'm not expecting much more Shep backstory, and don't really feel as much need for it as before. Basically, this episode affirmed everything we did know about Sheppard, without any equivocation. The man is about his team, first, foremost, always. And that's good enough for me.

How he came to be that way? Well, we may never know. But if we do ever find out, I think there'll be lots of thumps heard as many of us fall off our chairs. :)

AutumnDream
September 16th, 2006, 06:49 PM
It would be cool if he turned out to have some psychological disorder from some horrific experience that made him so bent on not leaving anyone behind. And not something trite and overdone like, "Oh, my daddy abandoned me. Oh noes."

lily
September 16th, 2006, 06:50 PM
WOW! This has become my second fave Carl Binder epi ever, the first one being Common Ground (and this one is really a close second). What I love about Carl Binder episodes is that he always write great team interaction and gets all the characters. In particular in this epi everybody in the team had something to do.

Actually, Ken Culperus wrote "Common Ground"; he's new.
Oops. I knew that. What I meant to say is that it was my second fave s3 epi right after Common Ground. And that Phantoms is my top fave Carl Binder epi ever.
I guess I shoud've read my post again after posting it. <headdesk>

Miyth
September 16th, 2006, 06:50 PM
My 2 cents:

I thought the storyline was a little generic, but I think it was absolutely perfect for character development and depth. I personally loved it, and watched it more than once.

I definitely think that there will be some great fanfiction coming off of this ep.

vaberella
September 16th, 2006, 07:40 PM
My 2 cents:

I thought the storyline was a little generic, but I think it was absolutely perfect for character development and depth. I personally loved it, and watched it more than once.

I definitely think that there will be some great fanfiction coming off of this ep.
Totally agreed. I didn't see much development for John, but then I like the mystery around the guy, what I was given I'm satisfied with and I can't wait for the fanfiction...I'm writing one about Weir's muskrat. :D


I was shocked when Mckay got shot...again. :P I mean, how many times are they going to torture Mckay before hes had enough. :mckay:
Hahaha...agreed, but my man has thick skin, he'll handle it well!:mckay:

civilbloodshed
September 16th, 2006, 08:26 PM
Seriously, did Wood take a seminar or something? I really loved the way he shot this episode; it really brought out the level of urgency it needed. I felt like I was watching E.R. or something, only with stuff blowing up and whatnot.

The only thing that took away from it was all that wet sand and cloudy overcast in Afghanistan. I know, I know, it's canadian weather and all that, and schedules need to be met regardless of fickle conditions, but still. :(

Willow'sCat
September 16th, 2006, 08:48 PM
Well, this was an OK ep nothing special, it actually reminded me of Red Dwarf again, interesting wonder if next week they encounter a monster made entirely out of vindaloo. :p :D

Anyho... So we still don't have a Sheppard background story... my god why is this so hard for the writers to do? Come on guys it is getting annoying.

OK breaking it down to characters as it is easier.

Teyla, aw she got shot and took it like a man, a stupid keep it all inside man. Why can't people show emotion and why can't she show emotion? Sure with John freaking out she needed to be the one holding on to her sanity but as John said (for the audience watching at home) her DNA should keep her from being effected. Other then, for plot devices via playing off Sheppard she was next to useless here.

Carson, I noticed he was in this episode. He was still nothing more then the doctor but I guess we just have to get use to that, it isn't going to change. I didn't feel for him, probably because I was two or three steps ahead of them, I already suspected they were all in the grip of the generator so I was expecting things to not be as they seemed. I did like the little McKay/Beckett moments but really they were rushed and I was left at one stage wondering if Carson has a permanent poll stuck *cough* *cough* because he seemed really pissy here, I thought only Rodney was allowed to be pissy. :P

Ronon, he was Ronon which is really sad as he is the most one dimensional character on the show, remember they got rid of Ford because he wasn't working, well how is Ronon working any better???? :S

Elizabeth, she did what I suspected she would, listen to the next brilliant scientist on Atlantis.

Sheppard, well major disappointment about the lack of background. Also about the lack of growth for him, he is still being written as the big dam hero with no reason to be a hero, like to know what makes him tick and it isn't happening. At least he seemed genuinely remorseful for shooting McKay and even Ronon, which is good but odd as he couldn't help it, why apologise when you couldn't have helped it? Why not explain to his team why he shot them? No that would mean he would have to show real emotion and explain that huh maybe he made a big mistake once, miss calculated the risks and we can't have that! Because he is the big dam hero! :rolleyes: *arrh!*

Zelenka, can we make him a regular? :)

McKay, and here I have to quote ToasterOnFire...

Ah Rodney, back to snarking and being pissy after a chance for some growth post-M&MM. Still, his hand on Carson's shoulder was quite touching.I think he did show growth in this episode from last week, I have no idea in what order they were written or shot; but I heard Rodney ask twice after one of the marines, and he seemed genuinely annoyed with himself when he got the guys name wrong, also despite the fact he was busy trying to SAVE everyone, he still took time out to show a little sympathy to Carson. This is not what he would have normally done in my opinion.

This may just be all to do with the generator but I think it was a small attempt to follow through, as hard as that is to believe. :P

I didn't mind him getting shot as it wasn't used to mock him, but really if it goes on like this I wouldn't blame him for leaving Atlantis and going back to Earth, even the threat of The Ori has to be better then this!

In all a nice filler episode but nothing really new. :cool:

Bring on The Return.

Gate gal
September 16th, 2006, 10:28 PM
This was a good episode. I expected it to be a little predictable and maybe even a little dark, but I was actually really suprised a few times. I didn't expect the Beckett and the dead marine scenes. I love Carson more every single week. I also loved getting some backstory on John. It was time. Another nice suprise was John shooting Ronan and Mckay. I loved the way Mckay reacted. It was really nice to see Teyla's wraith DNA help her save the day. I love the continuity that SGA has given us this year. Teyla needed a bigger part this week. She hasn't been around enough this season. Now, if only we could have an episode that had plenty of Teyla and Elizabeth. We usually get a lot of one or the other.

Jeyla4ever
September 17th, 2006, 03:00 AM
I think that John would have the same hallucination regardless of who got shot with him. It has nothing to do with Teyla personally. If it was Ronon or Rodney or Carson, John would have had the same vision, methinks.

What inner sanctum? I don't understand this depth you see. There must have been some straws lying around here...
This is a very good point...never thought of this one...

For me, it makes me wonder why the writers chose Teyla in the first place..and if you go back from Season 1 all the way till the very last episode, the person that is always by John's side in his worst and his best, is Teyla..so it wasn't a coincidence that they use Teyla....they friendship and bond is like no other, and if anything this episode solidifies it more....

again, it's what's in the writer's mind....why didn't they put Rodney next to John, it would have made more sense, they are best friends after all, and it was bound to happen that Rodney was going to get hurt..and of coarse, we wouldn't be getting the ridiculous comments on how John sees Teyla as a guy...but in the writer's mind, I"m sure they didn't do it with the intention of thinking that John thought of Teyla as a guy, but more importantly as the only person that understands him and as the only one that could get through to him...even Rodney figured that one out...

Edited: I'ts also interesting to add....that John knew he was loosing it so, why didn't John leave immediately....he wouldn't risk hurting Teyla....and then of coarse, he knew Teyla wouldn't hurt him because he figured out that because of her Wraith DNA she would not be affected...so, like a friend just mentioned to me, John knew that he wasn't going to hurt Teyla before he went into his hallucination...he was even joking with her....and he also knew that she wasn't going to hurt him....

I thought this was a solid episode...it was creepy and very eerie to see that all of them lost it...with the exception of Teyla..and basically, they would have all died and Teyla would have remained because none of them were going to hurt her...

Joe was incredible...from the very first time you saw him, you knew this was going to be creepy, he showed it to us right from the beginning..he wanted to get the heck out of there..

Ronon was great...I loved how they use his mind to make us see the Wraith hive ship when in reality it was Atlantis's attempt to figure out what happpened to them...

Teyla was amazing..Rachel did a fantastic job making us see through her struggle as she sees her teammates suffering and loosing their minds and she unable to do anything....when she finally saw Rodney's plea as her being their only hope, you could see in her face that she knew she was the only one that could get Sheppard to do something about it...

Carson broke my heart...he was Fantastic..I have no clue why he's not used more...the man is amazing! he had me the entire time...the hurt in his eyes, the anguish and pain...man, these guys are going to need some serious help...

but in the end, that was classic...Again...Ronon on the side, Rodney with Carson...and John next to the one whom he feels most comfortable with any time...insane or not..Teyla.....or was it the guy!

travis
September 17th, 2006, 05:31 AM
Not bad ep. kinda have mix feeling on this ep.
There were really tense moments and then there were sloppy moments, which is why I'm a bit conflicted. Love Teyla in this ep, Rodney was a dick again you think he'll be bit less arrogant and obnoxious after last ep. So I was glad he got shot, I saw that as poetic justice, but it was funny anyway.

Shep back story was a bit weak, but was a continuty to the ep Home in season 1, I think it was that dead guy that we saw in his reality. ( note to self must see that ep again to see if it was the same guy). Good to see Carson back and being active on away mission. Ronan LOL first thing that comes to mind, Gorilla in the mist.

MB.Eddie
September 17th, 2006, 05:36 AM
Overall i found the ep to be quite disapointing. It was quite predictable, and has been done numerous times.

Positive was that we got to learn a bit more about Sheppards background.

Willow'sCat
September 17th, 2006, 05:38 AM
For me, it makes me wonder why the writers chose Teyla in the first place

Well they used Teyla because she was going to be the only one unaffected because of her DNA, it was solely to drag this slight story out to fill the 40 odd minutes it had to. If they used Rodney, then who is fixing the generator? If they use Ronon then who is shooting at them after what's his name is blown to kingdom come? If they use Carson then no angst for Carson plus a good chance he would have a "shot" of something to give John to knock him out. If they used a nameless person then that wouldn't have worked for so many reasons, not least who cares about the nameless peeps... no it needed to be the only one with Wraith DNA. That just happened to be Teyla. No big mystery there. :S

OutThere
September 17th, 2006, 06:33 AM
I'ts also interesting to add....that John knew he was loosing it so, why didn't John leave immediately....he wouldn't risk hurting Teyla....and then of coarse, he knew Teyla wouldn't hurt him because he figured out that because of her Wraith DNA she would not be affected...so, like a friend just mentioned to me, John knew that he wasn't going to hurt Teyla before he went into his hallucination...he was even joking with her....and he also knew that she wasn't going to hurt him....

For some reason I hadn't put it together before that of course the machine would protect someone with Wraith DNA. So Teyla became Shep's friend in his hallucination, and all the humans were enemies. Thanks for pointing that out.

aaobuttons
September 17th, 2006, 07:18 AM
Loved:
The Rodney/Teyla interactions, I'm glad we're seeing more of them this season.
The Sheppard backstory. I'm glad we finally got it, it was enough for me and if they want to go back to it later then fine, but no biggie.
More Shep/Teyla friendship. Romantic shipper or friendshipper or just gen, it was a good time.
Poor Carson... I'd be having nightmares about that for years if I was him.
Rodney getting shot. That was an OMG moment/twist for sure. You always expect our heroes to get clipped in the arm or leg, but a shot to the chest you don't see coming.
Kull Warriors, nice to see them again!


Didn't love:
Ronan's run through the forest. It worked... but it didn't really do anything for me. I'd probably have been more interested if he was going after that military guy he killed in season 2. I understand that the Wraith are his biggest fear, but it had been done before.
No Chuck... who's this new gal and where's Chuck?
Weak use of Weir and Zelenka. I like what somebody suggested about having Zelenka interupt Weir doing something important instead of her just looking bored. Or maybe have them brainstorming on ways to cut through the interference on the planet. Something! :D

grasshopper64
September 17th, 2006, 07:30 AM
Overall a good episode, and once again I found it so much better than SG1.

I liked that Teyla and Carson were more involved here. I liked the Sheppard backstory bit, although like others have said, I was expecting more, like something concerning his family background.

Mckay getting shot, I couldn't help but thinking of when Jack shot Daniel in Lockdown "you shot me", brilliant!

ShadowMaat
September 17th, 2006, 08:26 AM
Shep's so-called backstory was, as someone else said, superficial. We didn't learn anything we didn't know already, we just had it put into pictures. :rolleyes:

Will second the feeling that Teyla's attempts to talk Shep out of his hallucination got tedious especially since, at the end, she immediately latched on to the obvious solution: play along with the fantasy and get Shep to do what you want that way.

The Carson stuff was wonderful although I couldn't help wondering if the guy he was performing CPR on was really dead or if Carson just thought he was. ;) Having the "not as injured" guy die was a nice- if cliched- twist, but Carson single-handedly hauling the "critically injured and oft-dying" guy halfway through the woods without incurring more damage seemed a little dodgy to me. I also can't help wondering if there was something Carson could have done to help the "not as injured" guy but the hallucinations prevented him from realizing there was any need.

McKay's paranoia about the machine was in keeping with his character and other than the *****ing about his sciatica I didn't see anything particularly insulting about the way he was portrayed. It's always nice to see McKay when he isn't being treated like a caricature... although the "You shot me!" thing at the end did start to wear after the first two times.

I must have missed the discussion about why a puddlejumper couldn't be sent to rescue them. I wandered off to take a shower at one point- must have been then.

As for the plot as a whole, I found it very... tedious. The "hallucinations" thing is so ancient it coughs up mothballs and I didn't feel that anything particularly new or interesting was done with it this time around. It's the same old story with the same old twists and the same old predictible outcome. What did we really learn about the characters? Shep has a Hero Complex, Ronon hates the Wraith, Carson is a good doctor and Rodney is afraid of failure. Gee, what a surprise. Teyla's Wraithy genes conveniently left her out of it all so we never get to learn a single thing about what makes her mind tick.

Sure, there was some good stuff in the ep, but I don't think the payoff was worth it and I kinda wish they'd gone in another direction. One that doesn't involve hallucinations. :P Kinda wish I'd skipped the whole thing. It's a one-off ep anyway and it'll have no impact on anything whatsoever in the future, except maybe some snarking about Shep shooting people. Not worth it, IMO.

expendable_crewman
September 17th, 2006, 08:26 AM
Well they used Teyla because she was going to be the only one unaffected because of her DNA, it was solely to drag this slight story out to fill the 40 odd minutes it had to. If they used Rodney, then who is fixing the generator? If they use Ronon then who is shooting at them after what's his name is blown to kingdom come? If they use Carson then no angst for Carson plus a good chance he would have a "shot" of something to give John to knock him out. If they used a nameless person then that wouldn't have worked for so many reasons, not least who cares about the nameless peeps... no it needed to be the only one with Wraith DNA. That just happened to be Teyla. No big mystery there. :SI think what makes the use of Teyla in this episode more interesting is she's shared Sheppard's alternate reality before. In Home , she was the recipient some of his combat history too.

Either Ronon or Teyla ... both were suitable as teammates capable of understanding war trauma, IMO. I can think up scenarios that switch Ronon, Teyla, and Sheppard around and still move the story, so it's been fun for me to read everyone's ideas.

Something I picked up on that I liked when I watched again:
From within the context of the story, we don't know when Sheppard figured out Teyla wasn't going to lose it. He brought it up after he re-bandaged her leg, when he was lucid. In the previous scene, he turns from Ronon and in the same moment sees Captain Holland. I thought he looked like a guy who was hoping he was going to stay unaffected and suddenly realized that he was going to lose control. He'd already seen the result of that. Within the context of the story, I don't imagine looking at three Atlantis expedition Marines sprawled on the ground was a sight he was going to forget.

I'm impressed by the fact that he didn't get away from Teyla as fast as he could. He's got to know how effective he is in combat. I think the story was saying that based on his vision and the way he felt about it, he must have been very sure that if he slipped again, Teyla was safe. I liked that dynamic. I didn't appreciate it until I watched the episode again. I just think that with what we *do* know about Sheppard to date, if he thought he was capable of hurting her, after he knew he was slipping, when he was lucid again he would have cleared out and told her why. On the lethal scale, her leg wound vs. deluded Sheppard with a gun ... I'm convinced he would have boogied.

I think all the speculation about why the writers gave the characters their particular reality and what it meant to the characters and the episode (and the viewers) is a great way to show appreciation for the episode. There have been a lot of ideas presented on this thread. My thanks to the many who have respected each and everyone's right to express them.

Major Gambit
September 17th, 2006, 08:28 AM
Terrific episode, I just love it when they tie it to SG-1 like that.

Jeyla4ever
September 17th, 2006, 08:54 AM
Well they used Teyla because she was going to be the only one unaffected because of her DNA, it was solely to drag this slight story out to fill the 40 odd minutes it had to. If they used Rodney, then who is fixing the generator? If they use Ronon then who is shooting at them after what's his name is blown to kingdom come? If they use Carson then no angst for Carson plus a good chance he would have a "shot" of something to give John to knock him out. If they used a nameless person then that wouldn't have worked for so many reasons, not least who cares about the nameless peeps... no it needed to be the only one with Wraith DNA. That just happened to be Teyla. No big mystery there. :S
That's a good point...but then again...we don't know about Ronon....we know they can't feed on him..so he could have been an alternative....

and the story could still have unfolded, I think, with someone else, because we know that the device was protecting Teyla from having hallucinations herself, but we know that it was not shielding her from others seeing her as friendly...I mean Rodney still saw Carson as Carson...and he saw Teyla and John when they came forward....they didn't have to have John with someone else from his past to tell the story....I don't think anyways, it could have gone another way...I think the point was to solidy this bond between them and it was beautifully interpreted while at the same time showing the background.....so, I think it could have been done differently if the writer's wanted to.....there is always room for other scenarios....so, I don't think it was that it could have only been Teyla....

Jeyla4ever
September 17th, 2006, 09:00 AM
I think what makes the use of Teyla in this episode more interesting is she's shared Sheppard's alternate reality before. In Home , she was the recipient some of his combat history too.

Either Ronon or Teyla ... both were suitable as teammates capable of understanding war trauma, IMO. I can think up scenarios that switch Ronon, Teyla, and Sheppard around and still move the story, so it's been fun for me to read everyone's ideas.

Something I picked up on that I liked when I watched again:
From within the context of the story, we don't know when Sheppard figured out Teyla wasn't going to lose it. He brought it up after he re-bandaged her leg, when he was lucid. In the previous scene, he turns from Ronon and in the same moment sees Captain Holland. I thought he looked like a guy who was hoping he was going to stay unaffected and suddenly realized that he was going to lose control. He'd already seen the result of that. Within the context of the story, I don't imagine looking at three Atlantis expedition Marines sprawled on the ground was a sight he was going to forget.

I'm impressed by the fact that he didn't get away from Teyla as fast as he could. He's got to know how effective he is in combat. I think the story was saying that based on his vision and the way he felt about it, he must have been very sure that if he slipped again, Teyla was safe. I liked that dynamic. I didn't appreciate it until I watched the episode again. I just think that with what we *do* know about Sheppard to date, if he thought he was capable of hurting her, after he knew he was slipping, when he was lucid again he would have cleared out and told her why. On the lethal scale, her leg wound vs. deluded Sheppard with a gun ... I'm convinced he would have boogied.

I think all the speculation about why the writers gave the characters their particular reality and what it meant to the characters and the episode (and the viewers) is a great way to show appreciation for the episode. There have been a lot of ideas presented on this thread. My thanks to the many who have respected each and everyone's right to express them.
I agree..not only that but then you wonder, he knew that Teyla wasn't going to hurt him either...and he did say, no violent urges yet...so, I think he figured out that by seeing Teyla as Holland, which he didn't deny to her that he was beginning to have the hallucinations, he figured out that not only he wasn't going to hurt her cause he was seeing her as his friend, he also told her don't worry about it....he wouldn't have endangered her at all if he wasn't sure...and he also knew that she was not going to be affected so, he was safe from her as well....

great points..and I do thank those who are being so polite and allowing others to freely voice their opinions, regardless if you agree or not.....It's threads like these that make it worth while to share your honest opinion....

doylefan22
September 17th, 2006, 09:05 AM
...Rodney was a dick again you think he'll be bit less arrogant and obnoxious after last ep. So I was glad he got shot, I saw that as poetic justice, but it was funny anyway...

Perhaps you weren't watching closely enough but he certainly wasn't a 'dick' in this episode. He was still tetchy, irritably and snarky under stress but that is just him. He's also shown as considerate and caring - he's concerned about the state of the marines, he comforts Carson, he tells the marine not to worry when he appologises for being a burden and his first instinct is to cover Carson so he can work on the downed marine when they get attacked. That is certainly not the McKay we first met!

He'll always be arrogant - mix his genius and his personality and that's pretty much a given - but he is showing some development.

Elinor
September 17th, 2006, 09:33 AM
Another very enjoyable episode...and I think it was even better on second viewing.

I also didn't pick up on Carson's illusion, that he was seeing the dead marine, so that was creepy.

Was nice to see a snippet of Shep's backstory...it put 'on screen' a bit of what we had heard about him. Laughed at the fact that his terrible sense of direction was shown again!!

Nice to see Teyla had some good stuff to do this time as well.

Heh...Rodney getting shot by Shep...and him so not letting it go...even though Shep apologized...many times!!

The writers have done well with showing us the team and their relationships with each other this season...

...and, ending on a fangirly note, I would like to express my thanks to the Wardrobe Dept for not only giving us Shep + leather jacket, but also Shep + desert gear! I wait in eager anticipation to see what they're going to give us next!!

http://www.websmileys.com/sm/happy/783.gif

stewsith
September 17th, 2006, 09:48 AM
Backstory yey! We found out about that black mark in Afganistan that Wier and O'neil mentioned in Rising which was cool. I really wish we could get even more deeper backstory on the Atlantis characters, expecially Carson and Teyla. We know nothing about their backstory and experiences so far.

Mitchell82
September 17th, 2006, 11:18 AM
Backstory yey! We found out about that black mark in Afganistan that Wier and O'neil mentioned in Rising which was cool. I really wish we could get even more deeper backstory on the Atlantis characters, expecially Carson and Teyla. We know nothing about their backstory and experiences so far.
I loved the backstory as well. Even though it reminded me of Paridise Lost it was very different and I loved every minute of it.

Scyld
September 17th, 2006, 11:27 AM
Yep... I honestly believe that he has just gone on one mission in his entire time in Afghanistan! Why would you even ask such a silly question? LOL

They may have been referring to ANOTHER situation in which they rescued a Special Ops team from danger... but I think the writers intentionally wrote that particular scene to add further information to his "black mark".

Give the audience what they have been asking for... more information on his background. I am going to assume that they were referring to the same incident and completely ignore this episode with any regard to Sheppard's background.

Ace

Well, consider that Shepphard was not exactly in a clear state of mind in this episode. It is entirely possible that his memory here was unreliable.

Trialia
September 17th, 2006, 11:29 AM
Hmm. Have to say, I thoroughly enjoyed this episode, despite the minimal appearance of my favourite character, and that says to me that the episode itself stood up pretty damn well. :)

Refreshingly, somehow, this episode didn't contain 'ship of any kind; I wouldn't want it that way for every episode, since I like me some 'ship every now and then, but it worked so well for this one. It's such a wonderfully team-oriented piece... and yay, Sheppard backstory! Finally!

Two questionable things I did pick up though - first of all, how come it took six hours for the team to be reported overdue to Elizabeth and have help sent for them? And secondly - Teyla's using contractions again, and while I am trying to write about her, that gives me a headache. :P

mgbland
September 17th, 2006, 11:31 AM
Loved the episode!


It seemed to me that Sheppard seemed to succumb completely. While Rodney and Beckett seemed to keep a sense of reality. Ronan and McKay still recognized Teyla.

I wondered if Sheppard may have had the biggest problem due to his ancient gene. He's always been a natural. With Carson also with the ancient gene couldn't tell if his patient was dead or not. Of course Rodney seemed to think it wouldn't affect him so much, since he had smoked pot with little problem (other than the munchies.)

At least we know what the black mark in Afghanistan is all about.

Linzi
September 17th, 2006, 11:34 AM
Hmm. Have to say, I thoroughly enjoyed this episode, despite the minimal appearance of my favourite character, and that says to me that the episode itself stood up pretty damn well. :)

Refreshingly, somehow, this episode didn't contain 'ship of any kind; I wouldn't want it that way for every episode, since I like me some 'ship every now and then, but it worked so well for this one. It's such a wonderfully team-oriented piece... and yay, Sheppard backstory! Finally!

Two questionable things I did pick up though - first of all, how come it took six hours for the team to be reported overdue to Elizabeth and have help sent for them? And secondly - Teyla's using contractions again, and while I am trying to write about her, that gives me a headache. :P
I've noticed the contraction thing too. I wonder if the writers are gradually letting her speak in a similar way to us Earthlings? After all, when we live and work around people, we do tend to copy their speech patterns, so it would make sense that she would pick up and use our less formal speech.

Trialia
September 17th, 2006, 11:35 AM
I've noticed the contraction thing too. I wonder if the writers are gradually letting her speak in a similar way to us Earthlings? After all, when we live and work around people, we do tend to copy their speech patterns, so it would make sense that she would pick up and use our less formal speech.
Naturally, yes, but I'm trying to write a fic set in season 1 and so it's giving me a headache hearing her speech change. *laughs*

Mitchell82
September 17th, 2006, 11:48 AM
Loved the episode!


It seemed to me that Sheppard seemed to succumb completely. While Rodney and Beckett seemed to keep a sense of reality. Ronan and McKay still recognized Teyla.

I wondered if Sheppard may have had the biggest problem due to his ancient gene. He's always been a natural. With Carson also with the ancient gene couldn't tell if his patient was dead or not. Of course Rodney seemed to think it wouldn't affect him so much, since he had smoked pot with little problem (other than the munchies.)

At least we know what the black mark in Afghanistan is all about.
Yeah and to be honest it was very Oneil like. The whole never leave a man behind thing. I thought it really fit his character.

NinaM
September 17th, 2006, 11:56 AM
I truly enjoyed the episode...I enjoy the team episodes...
Glad that Teyla had a more larger part in it then she has had for some time...
Glad also to see the bond getting stronger between John and Teyla...her seeing him at his worst reliving his past and what happened at that time...oh end really liked him in the desert gear *lol* Joe did once again a fantastic job getting different emotions through..
I loved that we got some backstory to Sheppard...even if we knew somewhat before what might have happened,,we really didn't know what happened out there and how he felt at the time being behind enemy lines trying to rescue this guy...

So all in all I truly enjoyed it and are ranking high on my favorite episode list :D

Linzi
September 17th, 2006, 12:15 PM
Naturally, yes, but I'm trying to write a fic set in season 1 and so it's giving me a headache hearing her speech change. *laughs*
I know what you mean! It took me ages to write for her NOT using contractions and now I'm going to have to get used to writing them, but not all the time, because she doesn't seem to do that! It's going to be horribly confusing, I think!

bluealien
September 17th, 2006, 01:02 PM
I think this ep gets even better on second viewing.

Great team ep with all my favourite characters and everyone was outstanding.

I have to give special kudos to Rachael for doing a great job with Teyla. Her interaction with Shepard was great and I loved the scene at the end where she got through to him - shows what a great understanding and bond they have with each other. I thought that she was going to kiss him at one stage to get through to him but the writers didn't need to have them lip locking in order to show us how connected they are. We know how Shep feels about Teyla and his team when he confided in her in Sateda, but its nice to see Teyla recipricate that feeling as well, and not give up trying to get through to him. The writers always do a great job with John Teyla scenes and its through Teyla that we tend to get a bit more insight into John Sheppard.


Great Carson moments here too and it was heartbreaking to see the look on his face when he saw that the marine had died. Very creepy moments as well when we are left unsure if the other wounded marine was dead or alive.

Loved the Afghanistan scenes and it was interesting that Sheppard still didn't see Teyla as an enemy but another person who ment a lot to him. Just as well that it wasnt Rodney who was with him at the time, as he may have shot him on sight like he did at the end od the ep. Thankfully Teyla managed to deflect his gun just as he fired.

Poor Rodneys cries of "Sheppard shot me," were very much in character for Rodney. While he was his usual snarky self throughout he still manages to show us that he has heart with the nice touch on Carsons shoulder when he found the dead marine.

Overall great character ep and wonderful team interaction.

drufan
September 17th, 2006, 01:06 PM
I believe even if the backstory was superficial and something we already knew that we learned a lot about Sheppard and the others.

Sheppard is not nice. He's a good guy but how many could sit next to someone they shot- even if he doesn't recognize him as Rodney- and continue to call for help? He had no problem with shooting a perceived enemy and just letting him bleed in the sand.

Rodney-mister I only watched Jeopardy- has seen Spinal Tap. Dialed it up to 11 and left it. That had me laughing. He has grown as others have mentioned. His attempt at comfort was rewarding.

Teyla watching teammates shoot at one another and unable to stop it. Having to work with what she's got...kudos to Ms. Luttrell.

We do not know when the device really truly affected them. Ronon was early. But look at Shep's face at the ring as the bodies lie around him. Is he under the influence then? Probably that situation works into the final illusion.

Carson's was the most heartbreaking. We don't know if the severity of Lt. Kagan's wound. Was it as dire as we were led to believe? I actually found myself caring about the extras in this one. Good writing and acting.

Fun episode and great addition in character development. S3 kicking ass and taking names...just not Chuck's.

ShadowMaat
September 17th, 2006, 01:56 PM
How come Sheppard didn't brain himself against the tree?

Of all the hallucinations we saw, his was the only one that had NO BASIS IN REALITY WHATSOEVER in regards to the surrounding terrain. All those "running through the desert" scenes and he didn't once smash into something invisible? Or at least dodge something that wasn't actually there?

Descent
September 17th, 2006, 02:04 PM
How come Sheppard didn't brain himself against the tree?

Of all the hallucinations we saw, his was the only one that had NO BASIS IN REALITY WHATSOEVER in regards to the surrounding terrain. All those "running through the desert" scenes and he didn't once smash into something invisible? Or at least dodge something that wasn't actually there?

Thats a good point, I doubt anyone will be able to explain that one. :sheppard33:

Heat_vision
September 17th, 2006, 02:09 PM
How come Sheppard didn't brain himself against the tree?

Of all the hallucinations we saw, his was the only one that had NO BASIS IN REALITY WHATSOEVER in regards to the surrounding terrain. All those "running through the desert" scenes and he didn't once smash into something invisible? Or at least dodge something that wasn't actually there?

I have to agree that you made a very valid point. However, his hallucination did still include Teyla, which shows he was aware of his surroundings at least to a limited extent. However, Sheppard's memories were so vivid that the hallucination would almost be too unreal set in a forrest because he likely remembers the exact path he took. (Aside from the obvious climate change!) Still, Teyla might have been able to help steer him a little, if not much.

It is possible that Ronan's reality had no basis in the surroundings. In Runner he was hiding on a forrested world, likely one of many. It is entirely possible the forest looked like another to him, without our noticing. Unlikely, but possible.

That these people didn't just shut down because of the inconsistencies in what they thought was happening and what was logical is impressive. The state of mind induced was really nightmarish, where nothing has to be logical.

ur uncle urgo
September 17th, 2006, 02:21 PM
have to say this wasnt my favorite but it wasnt the worst there was just to much crazyness i personaly think it is the worst this season but it was still good i love all SGA just my 2 cents

JohnDuh
September 17th, 2006, 05:35 PM
Wow, when you get guess the "plot" of the story 30 seconds in you know you are in for snooze city. Perhaps its age, when you are older than 20 you see how they keep recycling storylines on tv.

1 out of 10 because i liked the color of the remaining dune in Canada.

JohnDuh
September 17th, 2006, 05:56 PM
Dude, I have no clue what you're talking about. Elizabeth is getting hotter and hotter every episode!



So you are the one! Knew there was someone out there ;)

JohnDuh
September 17th, 2006, 06:01 PM
Why do you always have to be so MEAN to this character? You don't like her, fine. Making snarky remarks about physical appearances is borderline actress bashing, IMO. Fine if you say you hated her wardrobe, but lets not get into trashing physical appearances. Personally, I found her hair rather pretty.

So one is only allowed to say positive things here, eh? Wouldn't it be more efficient then to close the site and replace it with a sign saying: WE LOVE YOU.

mgbland
September 17th, 2006, 06:14 PM
It seemed to me that Sheppard was the most creeped out by the situation. Of course shooting half his team didn't help.

When Teyla asked him about [spoiler] saving Holland (or whatever his name was). I thought that for a second Sheppard wasn't going to answer. Of course Sheppard thought he was back in his past, during a traumatic time. McKay was trying to fix something without much luck. Beckett thought his patient was dying on him, and Ronan saw wraith. Each in their own way experienced their worst fears.[/spoilers]

ShadowMaat
September 17th, 2006, 06:33 PM
So one is only allowed to say positive things here, eh? Wouldn't it be more efficient then to close the site and replace it with a sign saying: WE LOVE YOU.
If you have a constructive criticism about a character, that's one thing, but if all you're doing is bashing a character's physical appearance, that tends to drift into different territory. There's a fine line between an honest complaint and a thinly-disguised attack.

lily
September 17th, 2006, 07:11 PM
Well, I just finished watching Phantoms for a third time. After watching it once, I gave it a 10 out of 10. And the more times I watch it, the more I love it. So I guess I should rate it 12 out of 10, or above now. LOL. Excellent character and team interaction, fantastic acting, editing and direction. IMHO, of course.

vaberella
September 17th, 2006, 08:06 PM
Why do you always have to be so MEAN to this character? You don't like her, fine. Making snarky remarks about physical appearances is borderline actress bashing, IMO. Fine if you say you hated her wardrobe, but lets not get into trashing physical appearances. Personally, I found her hair rather pretty.
So one is only allowed to say positive things here, eh? Wouldn't it be more efficient then to close the site and replace it with a sign saying: WE LOVE YOU.
Actually this may be in response to my Muskrat comment. Shoot, I have to send out an apology about that. I didn't know that was real! I knew Ms. Higginson was growing out her hair, but I thought the whole thing would be curly.

I didn't know people's hair actually grew straight on top and curly in the back. I'd like to thank a friend for notifying me. My sister also informed me she has a friend who had curly hair on top and straight hair in the back, that's natural. So it was a 'learn something new' for me day!

Put it down to my own ignorance. I seriously thought it was a weave or wig piece like they do on Teyla. In Progeny and TRW her hair didn't look like that, so I figured it was styled in that way, not that it was actually her real hair.

I don't waste my time on attacking actresses, since they're playing a role--and are insignificant to my discussion, as can be clearly seen in all my posts; and I only critize the character not normally her appearance, the hair threw me off guard, it's like Teyla's contractions or her various wig changes :eek:. I thought it was a character hair faux pas on part of the hair stylists, my mistake! :S No insult was intended to the actress in my statement.

SciFiGeek
September 17th, 2006, 10:15 PM
I was surprised at this episode--I thought it was pretty wicked cool. Since there had been so little info given out in spoilers regarding the episode, I was afraid it would be more along the lines of the entire rest of the team being hunted around by Sheppard and Ronon, which would've gotten old fast. And though I've rarely been a fan of Carl Binder's scripts in the past, I thought this was easily one of his most tolerable.

Whiny McKay was back maybe a little too frequently, but at least he got some serious moments. But when it really hit me just how wicked this episode was was the great reveal that the one Marine was (to Beckett's and our surprise) actually really dead--which then had me questioning everything, like whether either of the Marines were really dead or alive, and what of what was going on around Beckett and McKay could be trusted.

Also nice to be able to finally get some (minimal) backstory of Sheppard, which they've been promising for about a year and a half now. I can't say honestly for sure (and hope that the writers will sometime in the future) but it'd be interesting to learn if that mission was one of the reasons for his ultimately being sent to Antarctica. I also was a little confused as to why Teyla remained unaffected, though I assume we are to surmise, from Sheppard's comment, that it's a result of her Wraith DNA?

Surprisingly good ending--amen to whomever said best quote of the episode was Sheppard's "I'm sorry for shooting everyone." Especially what with McKay's repeated "You shot me" (which most definitely did hark to SG1's Lockdown, IMO) and made all the better by Ronon hopping on board ("You shot me, too.") and even smiling at the end at McKay's repeated use of the line.

All in all, one of the better episodes of the season, I thought. Between this, Common Ground, what I'd like to hope for of Sateda, what I wish I had gotten from McKay and Mrs. Miller...and repressing Irresistlble, I would say the first half of the season is standing up better than the first half of second did. (If any of that even made any sense.)

travis
September 17th, 2006, 11:19 PM
Perhaps you weren't watching closely enough but he certainly wasn't a 'dick' in this episode. He was still tetchy, irritably and snarky under stress but that is just him. He's also shown as considerate and caring - he's concerned about the state of the marines, he comforts Carson, he tells the marine not to worry when he appologises for being a burden and his first instinct is to cover Carson so he can work on the downed marine when they get attacked. That is certainly not the McKay we first met!

He'll always be arrogant - mix his genius and his personality and that's pretty much a given - but he is showing some development.
I agree with what you said here. I have a love/hate relationship for his character. It's just that in a dire situation like that i just wish he can just tone done a bit. Though he did express compassion to the marine that got shot, it just that it came out in a way that it was like oh well you got shot so I have no choice kinda way.( it's just how I interperate it)

I just found it also funny that in "Pegasus Project" that Shep was telling Mitchelle to shot Rodney if he get annoying. So in this ep it was good to see that follow through in an subconcious and random way.

Descent
September 17th, 2006, 11:40 PM
Its kind of strange, the more I watch this episode the more I end up liking it. I originally gave it a 7/10 but now I'm more inclined to give it an 8...:sheppard33:

Linzi
September 17th, 2006, 11:47 PM
Well, I just finished watching Phantoms for a third time. After watching it once, I gave it a 10 out of 10. And the more times I watch it, the more I love it. So I guess I should rate it 12 out of 10, or above now. LOL. Excellent character and team interaction, fantastic acting, editing and direction. IMHO, of course.
I've watched Phantoms twice more so far, and the second time I watched it with my eldest daughter, who thought it was the best episode so far in season three. I don't think that, but I did enjoy it even more second time round! It is a spooky episode, but quite highly charged emotionally too in places. I really like the way it was shot, kudos to MW for that. It was a good team episode, with nobody being left out.

spirited Chihiro
September 18th, 2006, 05:14 AM
I have watched this episode several times now, and i have to say that it was EXCELLENT!!! Absolutely loved the whole team being vulnerable and not completely with themselves.
I absolutely thought that Teyla was awesome!!! She saved the day, and about time, she is the most composed character and it was about time that she used those skills to solve the problem! I also thought she was fabulous in that she didnt let her injury completely make her useless, as she realised that it was up to her to help her team!
I thought Rachel's acting was excellent and the way she was able to get thru to john by using his hallucinations to get what she wanted was superb!
John was creepy...but i enjoyed the backstory, and i thought it was interesting to see the way they incorporated teyla's wound with Holland...
Poor beckett too!!! heartbreaking stuff!
Whenever i think of rodney running out of the cave trying to avoid the explosion i cant help but lol...hilarious!
I appreciate a show which can incorporate humour and drama together and like this episode take the audience thru a whole range of emotions continuously!

I hope we see more of the strong and intelligent Teyla that we saw here...and also more team action like this!!!

Jeyla4ever
September 18th, 2006, 08:43 AM
I think it is that kind of an episode..I think at first we are so entranced by the eerie feeling..I mean seeing John and Ronon at each other is creepy enough..but then when you watch it a second time around you see how well each storyline was played out and the details and complexity of each story so wonderfully arranged to fit the main plot....DAMN WRAITH DEVICE!

I just think that it was such a dark episode...but then to make us like it..it's even better....

In a way, each one of the cast had to deal with its own fears....and well, poor Teyla..she faced her own fear....to loose her teammates right in front of her eyes...

and as I watch it again..there are so many scenes that really give me the chills....watching Rodney on the ground plead to Teyla as the only one that can do something....*shivers* still give me the creeps...that was an intense scene....and then Teyla almost cry when she saw that Rodney was almost done shutting the thind down...*shivers*

Watching John relieve one of his worst nightmares....

and you know, I was thinking...John couldn't possibly be relieving those exact moments...I mean what are the odds that Holland had the injury in the same spot as Teyla...and that he was going unconscious at the same time as Teyla...so, I think he was not living the exact same scenario, but instead attempting to do things differently than the first time around...again when Teyla talked him to pull the cord, he was in fact listening to Teyla but interpreting it in his vision....

and John wasn't himself from the minute he started seeing those bodies...I think that although his hallucinations didn't come until later..the creepy feeling that he was experiencing was from the beginning...knowing that not long ago, he saw the same thing with his team mates back in Afghanistan...

and Carson...*shivers* holding that soldier...I thought he was dead! and why did the other guy die, wasn't he the least injured...? I didn't get that part...

but overall, I think this was just as creepy as Common Ground, maybe even more cause the entire team was affected....

LOVED IT! I give it 10/10

hakkyounotenshi
September 18th, 2006, 09:10 AM
I thought this was a pretty good episode, although I was a bit put off by how calm Sheppard seemed upon learning he'd shot his team. I would think he'd be a bit more worked up, but maybe he was holding it together until they were all safe off the planet. Then having his "OMG I almost killed my friends!!" moment.

Teyla :teylaanime03: :cheers!: TEYLA SAVES THE DAY!!!! She talks down Sheppard as much as possible, manages to get Sheppard to disable the generator, and if you watch the scene when Sheppard shots McKay in slow motion, you can see that Teyla jostles Shep's arm and throws off his aim, effectively saving Rodney's life.

One thing I don't understand is why the writers always pick on McKay :mckay:. Nearly every time the team goes of world he gets hurt in some way. Be nice already :cries:

McKay rocks! :mckayanime17:

Linzi
September 18th, 2006, 09:21 AM
I thought this was a pretty good episode, although I was a bit put off by how calm Sheppard seemed upon learning he'd shot his team. I would think he'd be a bit more worked up, but maybe he was holding it together until they were all safe off the planet. Then having his "OMG I almost killed my friends!!" moment.

Teyla :teylaanime03: :cheers!: TEYLA SAVES THE DAY!!!! She talks down Sheppard as much as possible, manages to get Sheppard to disable the generator, and if you watch the scene when Sheppard shots McKay in slow motion, you can see that Teyla jostles Shep's arm and throws off his aim, effectively saving Rodney's life.

One thing I don't understand is why the writers always pick on McKay :mckay:. Nearly every time the team goes of world he gets hurt in some way. Be nice already :cries:

McKay rocks! :mckayanime17:
I thought Sheppard was being a professional soldier here, and that's why he was outwardly calm. He also must have known it wasn't his fault that he shot Ronon and McKay. I'm sure he felt pretty upset about it though. I also think perhaps Sheppard was holding it together until they're all safely home, and then he'd have a little freak out - along with the rest of the team!

Pitry
September 18th, 2006, 09:56 AM
Excellent! Excellent excellent excelent.

Loved every second of Phantoms.

First, finally Becket gets some wel deserved attention! I was beginning to get exasperated. But here he was, Becket that I loved so in season 1. I was compeltely and utterly taken by surprise to find the young lieutenant dead - can't remember his name. And Kegan being alive after all - weird. But the wayt they revealed the lieutenant dead, and that it was all Carson's hallucination and that he died because he didn't get any treatment... creepy. Really creepy.

Sheppard - I actually liked him this episode! Well, there's a first to everything. Okay, second, cos I also liked him a bit in Common Ground. I really enjoyed the Afghanistan bits - and poor Teyla, talking to thin air.

Speaking of Teyla - and Ronon - can they please start paying attention to them too? That would have made the episode truely perfect, had they not ignored these two, yet again. Well, can't get everything.

Ha, the Prometheus... I was sure I heard wrong before Rodney repeated it. ;) And super-soldiers! Bwahahh. Some SGC traumas for the poor marine? OR airman? Or something....?

Rodney! Finally, after he's been sketchy all season, I got back the Rodney I loved from the previous 2 seasons, hooray! *pats Meredith*. And he was so close, too, to figuring it out til it got him. I guess he was relatively shielded in that chamber, but not compeltely - but since when did Teyla start understanding about computers?

Why would the WRaith want to make themselves better at causing halluciantions? They were right, they're doing it quite well on their own already. Perhaps this is the way they originally got that ability, I wonder.

All in all.... loved it.

OutThere
September 18th, 2006, 11:27 AM
I really liked this episode. I watched it a second time, and now really love it.

I thought the 10-second Taliban Rodney Guy was pretty good. I'd love to know what he was saying. By the inflection I imagine it was something along the lines of a disbelieving, "What the--?! You shot me!" Someday maybe we'll get a translation. I thought he sounded very Rodney-esque even though I couldn't understand him.

vaberella
September 18th, 2006, 12:06 PM
Teyla :teylaanime03: :cheers!: TEYLA SAVES THE DAY!!!! She talks down Sheppard as much as possible, manages to get Sheppard to disable the generator, and if you watch the scene when Sheppard shots McKay in slow motion, you can see that Teyla jostles Shep's arm and throws off his aim, effectively saving Rodney's life.


For sure I totally agree with you about Teyla saving Rodney's life, John saw a an enemy and that shot was an aim for the heart, poor Rodney would not be around right now if Teyla didn't deflect the aim of the gun. :mckay: :teyla25: That was one of the crazy things.

It definitely showed me who John trusts and who he's clearly wary of, and understandably so. I have read where people say that if it was Rodney or Ronon, who was shot John would have reacted the same. The ep shows, that's definitely not the case, probably would have seen a taliban laying there and finished the job when the machine really got to his head, like it did in the middle-end of the ep. Ronon was an enemy later on, and he was around getting shot along side John and Teyla. The shooting of Rodney, who I would have said was his best bud was a 'Woah, Momma!!' scene; I recieved the message, but it was shocking none the less.

Again, it is understandable John would be wary of Ronon/Rodney and not Teyla, so far she's the only one who hasn't in some way let him down or made him question his trust. Rodney in Trinity even knew that he tested John's trust level, he was sincere in his apology---but there's definitely a rebuilding of the relationship that is necessary---John is probably still reacting to that. With Ronon, even though he understands Ronon, the guy is still a major wild card. He would do something reckless that could harm people before really getting the alternatives.

Ronon of course would see John as the enemy I find mainly because not only does he have trust issues, but also for the fact that John is overall foreign to PG and a CO (I think Ronon is still smarting for what his last CO did to the Satedan people, which is understandable.) Or it could be that next Ronon himself---John is a worthy and skilled opponent added to his foreignness, which could be the wraith reflection.

Teyla holding out that position of trust was cool. JF and RL definitely play off each other well, I was really glad to see that energy from Sateda shown here. It was a great friendship for them, and definitely shows the high esteem that John holds Teyla.

Teyla herself has some balls man, she didn't cry or or fall unconcious, she sucked it up, after getting shot!! Teyla most likely has never been shot before by a bullet, I'm surprised not even a tear came out of her eye, she was just sweating a lot. Not only that it was cool to see her save the day, and she worked with John's delusions not away from them, to get the job done.

I'd like to see more of this, and especially of Teyla, I like seeing the ladies saving the day!!

smushybird
September 18th, 2006, 12:54 PM
I think this ep gets even better on second viewing.

I watched it again and I think you're right. I still wish we'd learned something new about Sheppard, but I did enjoy the playing-out of what we already knew, and I enjoyed it mainly because JF's acting was so good. In fact, the acting by everyone in this episode was just really outstanding.



Thankfully Teyla managed to deflect his gun just as he fired.


It looked to me like he fired before she pushed his arm. He lifted the gun, aimed and fired in one smooth motion, without interruption, so it was a miracle Rodney wasn't killed instantly.

ShadowMaat
September 18th, 2006, 01:47 PM
It's interesting to see how people define "dark" in regards to storylines. It never crossed my mind to apply the term to Phantoms. Could be why I have such an issue with the lack of darkness on the show: I'm not seeing it! ;) They must be working from a different dictionary. :)

Wilson3Girl
September 18th, 2006, 02:10 PM
Rodney! Finally, after he's been sketchy all season, I got back the Rodney I loved from the previous 2 seasons, hooray! *pats Meredith*. And he was so close, too, to figuring it out til it got him. I guess he was relatively shielded in that chamber, but not compeltely - but since when did Teyla start understanding about computers?

That was my thought too when I first watched the episode. How did Teyla know so much about that kind of stuff? But then I remembered that Rodney was talking to her and explaining to her what he was doing at the beginning of the episode. In fact, she got a bit exasperated with him, saying something to the effect of, "I've been trying to appeal to Rodney that its not necessary to explain why this is happening but how important it is to just shut it off." Maybe standing there all that time listening to Rodney explain what was going on gave her some understanding? I noticed that she'd picked up on some things in Epiphany too, when Rodney was explaining to her about how to work the camera etc. She seemed to be picking up on what he was saying as if she'd listened to him before. I don't know. I'm glad that she understands some of this stuff in case Rodney ever becomes unable to work during a mission. I loved the scene between she and Rodney when Rodney was lying on the ground shot, and pleading with her to convince John to let her turn it off. He knew she was their last and only chance. Good stuff.

Wilson3Girl

CalmStorm
September 18th, 2006, 02:55 PM
I agree with what you said here. I have a love/hate relationship for his character. It's just that in a dire situation like that i just wish he can just tone done a bit. Though he did express compassion to the marine that got shot, it just that it came out in a way that it was like oh well you got shot so I have no choice kinda way.( it's just how I interperate it)

I think this is as toned down as McKay can get. Anymore so and it would not have been McKay.

ShadowMaat
September 18th, 2006, 03:41 PM
At the end, McKay also shouted at her, "I told you what to do, now do it!" (or words to that effect) so it's possible that in addition to whatever she may have picked up through osmosis McKay also detailed the remaining steps to her while Shep was off in Hero Land. ;)

vaberella
September 18th, 2006, 04:05 PM
It's interesting to see how people define "dark" in regards to storylines. It never crossed my mind to apply the term to Phantoms. Could be why I have such an issue with the lack of darkness on the show: I'm not seeing it! ;) They must be working from a different dictionary. :)
Dude...Rodney almost got shot in the heart. The heart!! A man blew himself up, granted we didn't see pieces of him, but you have that mental image. And Zombies were running around talking to Beckett---that's crazy!

That was my thought too when I first watched the episode. How did Teyla know so much about that kind of stuff? But then I remembered that Rodney was talking to her and explaining to her what he was doing at the beginning of the episode. In fact, she got a bit exasperated with him, saying something to the effect of, "I've been trying to appeal to Rodney that its not necessary to explain why this is happening but how important it is to just shut it off." Maybe standing there all that time listening to Rodney explain what was going on gave her some understanding? I noticed that she'd picked up on some things in Epiphany too, when Rodney was explaining to her about how to work the camera etc. She seemed to be picking up on what he was saying as if she'd listened to him before. I don't know. I'm glad that she understands some of this stuff in case Rodney ever becomes unable to work during a mission. I loved the scene between she and Rodney when Rodney was lying on the ground shot, and pleading with her to convince John to let her turn it off. He knew she was their last and only chance. Good stuff.

Wilson3Girl


Check out the ep Aurora in S2, you'll really see Teyla dishing it out like she was McKay himself, albeit hesitantly. She said enough that even Caldwell was fooled by it. I get the feeling that she hangs out the scientist to get what they're doing, and since at times I get the feeling that John tunes Mckay out and so did Ford or as Ronon does, Teyla actually listens as the man babbles on endless. (So do I, but I WUV HIM! :D) Anyway, she really does seem to get him and she knows how to play him as well, seen again in Aurora and various other eps!!

Luz
September 18th, 2006, 05:31 PM
It's interesting to see how people define "dark" in regards to storylines. It never crossed my mind to apply the term to Phantoms. Could be why I have such an issue with the lack of darkness on the show: I'm not seeing it! ;) They must be working from a different dictionary. :)
I think it's because it can be considered dark for SG, I mean look at SG1 that show is almost a parody, Atlantis is slightly darker than SG1. The only other shows I've got to compare these two in terms of darkness are XF and Twin Peaks, so yeah SG is not quite there yet (and it might never be, it's not that kind of show).

It looked to me like he fired before she pushed his arm. He lifted the gun, aimed and fired in one smooth motion, without interruption, so it was a miracle Rodney wasn't killed instantly.
When I looked it seemed like he was going to shoot him in the arm, and Teyla pushed the gun more to the left, so Rodney is lucky she didn't get him shot in the stomach or his heart.

vaberella
September 18th, 2006, 07:06 PM
When I looked it seemed like he was going to shoot him in the arm, and Teyla pushed the gun more to the left, so Rodney is lucky she didn't get him shot in the stomach or his heart.


You definitely need to rewatch the episode. John is a skilled marksmen, we saw what he did to Ronon from the distance he was. That means in close proximity if he wants you dead he'll bloody kill you, and he saw Rodney as a taliban---ie E-NE-MY!!

Further more, and not to seem condescending, you have your right and left wrong. Unless you are speaking of Rodney's left, and that would mean if Teyla pushed it more towards Rodney's left, then she pushed the gun towards Rodney's arm or away from Rodney period, to the cave area behind him.

If you see when Teyla deflects John's aim it's to John's lower RIGHT, John's left arm is around Teyla's waist, and his right arm is on the gun. So Teyla pushed the right arm, which was aiming towards the left side of McKay, which means, Teyla did not pull the gun towards herself aiming closer to a death kill by John!!

That means, John's aim was initially to the upper left (from John's perspective), ie probably an aim for Rodney's heart. His aim was to kill Rodney, and he was going too, if Teyla didn't push the gun away.

stubadingdong
September 18th, 2006, 07:57 PM
It definitely showed me who John trusts and who he's clearly wary of, and understandably so. I have read where people say that if it was Rodney or Ronon, who was shot John would have reacted the same. The ep shows, that's definitely not the case, probably would have seen a taliban laying there and finished the job when the machine really got to his head, like it did in the middle-end of the ep. Ronon was an enemy later on, and he was around getting shot along side John and Teyla. The shooting of Rodney, who I would have said was his best bud was a 'Woah, Momma!!' scene; I recieved the message, but it was shocking none the less.

As someone who believes that John would have a similar hallucination regardless of who got shot with him, I'll explain what I mean.

Teyla got shot in John's presence before he started to hallucinate. If Rodney or Ronon had been shot at that time in the place of Teyla, I do firmly believe that John would have treated his teammate as Captain Holland. John only saw his other teammates as enemies while in his full-blown hallucination.


Again, it is understandable John would be wary of Ronon/Rodney and not Teyla, so far she's the only one who hasn't in some way let him down or made him question his trust. Rodney in Trinity even knew that he tested John's trust level, he was sincere in his apology---but there's definitely a rebuilding of the relationship that is necessary---John is probably still reacting to that. With Ronon, even though he understands Ronon, the guy is still a major wild card. He would do something reckless that could harm people before really getting the alternatives.

What does this trust issue have to do with Phantoms? I don't understand the comparisons. John didn't see Teyla, he saw Holland. And I'm not sure John has ever not trusted Teyla, but I don't think she's the one he unequivocally trusts above everyone else. It makes your argument sound like it's firmly based on a shipper preference. The point is that regardless of who was shot initially before John started to hallucinate, that that person is who he would see as the injured Holland.


Teyla herself has some balls man, she didn't cry or or fall unconcious, she sucked it up, after getting shot!! Teyla most likely has never been shot before by a bullet, I'm surprised not even a tear came out of her eye, she was just sweating a lot. Not only that it was cool to see her save the day, and she worked with John's delusions not away from them, to get the job done.

I'd like to see more of this, and especially of Teyla, I like seeing the ladies saving the day!!

I agree completely with this. :D

vaberella
September 18th, 2006, 08:07 PM
As someone who believes that John would have a similar hallucination regardless of who got shot with him, I'll explain what I mean.

Teyla got shot in John's presence before he started to hallucinate. If Rodney or Ronon had been shot at that time in the place of Teyla, I do firmly believe that John would have treated his teammate as Captain Holland. John only saw his other teammates as enemies while in his full-blown hallucination.
Yeah, and again I think he would see a Taliban as he saw them as that in the episode. I thought it was an easy conclusion. I can see him, seeing a flash of a taliban officer on the ground shot, there either by him or someone else, since he saw them that way later on in full hallucination. Not only that, it was seen in the ep that Ronon was near him, and we know from his past that there were other officer's with him, more than one, he could have easily imagined Ronon or Rodney as one of them, but he didn't. He saw them as the enemy.




What does this trust issue have to do with Phantoms? I don't understand the comparisons. John didn't see Teyla, he saw Holland. And I'm not sure John has ever not trusted Teyla, but I don't think she's the one he unequivocally trusts above everyone else. It makes your argument sound like it's firmly based on a shipper preference. The point is that regardless of who was shot initially before John started to hallucinate, that that person is who he would see as the injured Holland.
Sure it would seem shippery, as it should, there are friendSHIPS, aren't there?! And that's the context I was speaking of. It's clear by the way John's reflection put the face of his dead comrade on Teyla as there being a deep friendship there, one with an undeniable bond (Since again, he opened up to Teyla and hasn't to anyone else on the show!!). Again, I'll have to disagree with you on that point of trust.

I'm not denying that John trusts these people, because he has said they're family. And he does have Ronon and McKay on his team. But Trinity clearly showed that there was a level of trust put in question, Rodney even said paraphrasing,'That he hopes to earn John's trust again.' So something was lost and John is fairly wary of him. I don't see something wrong with him being wary of the various people he works with. Case in point he saw them as the Taliban (again, the enemy).

This is again the reason I pointed out the difference in his reaction's and what he saw of each person.

FoolishPleasure
September 18th, 2006, 08:07 PM
With the talk of "dark/edgy" - just a tidbit on SciFi.com:

SCI FI is so happy with this critical and ratings darling (BSG) that it has tapped creator (or is that re-imaginer?) Ron Moore to put together a prequel series, called Caprica, about the events that led to those pesky Cylons getting out of hand in the first place. While it's looking a bit Stargate-ish in design, it's a plan that's most likely to work as long as they let Moore create another daring, edgy series.

Even the Suits at SciFi don't consider SG1/SGA to be daring or edgy.

Whole article here:

http://www.scifi.com/sfw/screen/sfw13667.html

SciFiGeek
September 18th, 2006, 08:18 PM
I think this is as toned down as McKay can get. Anymore so and it would not have been McKay.

Umm, Defiant One? It's been a little while since I watched it, but I don't remember much in the way of McKay having any of his shrill panic attacks beyond a slight overreaction to the initial appearance of the light insects. He certainly didn't in anyway relating to Gaul killing himself, and remained cool-headed and focused enough to want to go out and help Sheppard, and then did with his gun--which he promptly forgot to use come the start of Season 2. Even Hot Zone had pretty level-headed McKay in dire situations--in fact, it was more most the other scientists freaking out while McKay was one of the one's trying to stay calm enough to fix the situation...which was one of the reasons why I loved that episode.

Is it just me, or did McKay suddenly get really whiny, shrill, and waaaay too prone to panic attacks somewhere between Sheppard flying the PJ into the Wraith ship and the arrival of the Daedalus? *sigh* I miss Season One.

stubadingdong
September 18th, 2006, 08:25 PM
Yeah, and again I think he would see a Taliban as he saw them as that in the episode. I thought it was an easy conclusion. I can see him, seeing a flash of a taliban officer on the ground shot, there either by him or someone else, since he saw them that way later on in full hallucination. Not only that, it was seen in the ep that Ronon was near him, and we know from his past that there were other officer's with him, more than one, he could have easily imagined Ronon or Rodney as one of them, but he didn't. He saw them as the enemy.

I'm sorry, but I'm really not following your line of thinking. John saw them as Taliban well into his hallucination, when Teyla couldn't bring him out of it. Again, I don't think it had anything to do with Teyla, just who was with him to serve as the injured Holland. I think it's just reading way more into it.





Sure it would seem shippery, as it should, there are friendSHIPS, aren't there?! And that's the context I was speaking of. It's clear by the way John's reflection put the face of his dead comrade on Teyla as there being a deep friendship there, one with an undeniable bond (Since again, he opened up to Teyla and hasn't to anyone else on the show!!). Again, I'll have to disagree with you on that point of trust.

He saw Holland in Teyla because she was injured and suited the hallucination. I'm not arguing the friendship or the trust. I just don't think it's an issue in this episode. It sounds to me like you're trying to put more on the dynamic between John and Teyla than what was meant in this episode. And I think I'll disagree with you on him opening up only to Teyla.


I'm not denying that John trusts these people, because he has said they're family. And he does have Ronon and McKay on his team. But Trinity clearly showed that there was a level of trust put in question, Rodney even said paraphrasing,'That he hopes to earn John's trust again.' So something was lost and John is fairly wary of him. I don't see something wrong with him being wary of the various people he works with. Case in point he saw them as the Taliban (again, the enemy).

This is again the reason I pointed out the difference in his reaction's and what he saw of each person.

He only saw one friend, the person who was with him the whole time during his hallucination. Given that his hallucination was in "enemy territory," of course he's going to see everyone else that way. It's got nothing to do with the events in Trinity or any other episode. John was so far gone that even the landscape changed. He so was not even remotely present on the forest planet (wherever they were). He had no clue that he was hallucinating whereas Rodney and Carson did.

Hm, maybe it has something to do with the levels of testosterone. Ronon was all running on a rampage and didn't seem to get "reality" either.

CalmStorm
September 18th, 2006, 08:28 PM
Umm, Defiant One? It's been a little while since I watched it, but I don't remember much in the way of McKay having any of his shrill panic attacks beyond a slight overreaction to the initial appearance of the light insects. He certainly didn't in anyway relating to Gaul killing himself, and remained cool-headed and focused enough to want to go out and help Sheppard, and then did with his gun--which he promptly forgot to use come the start of Season 2. Even Hot Zone had pretty level-headed McKay in dire situations--in fact, it was more most the other scientists freaking out while McKay was one of the one's trying to stay calm enough to fix the situation...which was one of the reasons why I loved that episode.

Is it just me, or did McKay suddenly get really whiny, shrill, and waaaay too prone to panic attacks somewhere between Sheppard flying the PJ into the Wraith ship and the arrival of the Daedalus? *sigh* I miss Season One.

I think he was very affected by Gaul, and this subdued him quite a bit. Prior to that inncodent, he was being a bit panicked and completely uncertain as to what he should do...stay with Gaul or go help Sheppard. Gaul made the decision for him. It was his friend, he saw what had happen to him, and at the time, I think he felt somewhat responsible for what Gaul did. I'd say he was more in shock than toned down. However, the situation can be perceived any number of ways.

In Hot Zone, McKay seemed somewhat calm in the beginning, until he really started putting the pieces together. Once he realized he was affected as well, I no longer saw a toned down McKay, but one who was rather panicked. Again though, this situation cane be perceived any number of ways as well.

McKay has his moments, however, for this episode I felt that McKay was as toned down as McKay can get for the situation at hand and still be in character.

Lightbane
September 18th, 2006, 08:35 PM
I thought that episode was a bit odd the soilder with the stomach wound coming back to life was freaky i liked Company of Thieves better then this ep

SciFiGeek
September 18th, 2006, 08:36 PM
CalmStorm, I guess I'm just having unhappy flashbacks to the beginning of Season Two, mostly notably (*cringe*) in Runner, with the image of McKay literally running around and shrieking...

I thought the overreacting of McKay to the "power levles rising and explosion" was just a tetch too much for me, but that's just IMO. :)

ShadowMaat
September 18th, 2006, 08:47 PM
Yeah, well, I can think of a few exceptions, but generally speaking I consider both Stargates to be a bit... toothless? They lead up to big things, they toe around the edges once in a while, but then they drag out the Big Bad Reset Button and throw a handful of cliched dei ex machinis at whatever the problem is and everything goes back to boring normal.

Not a popular opinion, I know, and I'm really not interested in defending my viewpoint, but there it is anyway. ;)

Why not give us something we aren't expecting? Why not show us something we don't know? Why not take some bloody damn chances once in a while? *sigh* But that's not what Stargate is about, I know. That's one thing that will NEVER change.

At least the Carson stuff was good. Nice to know TPTB haven't forgotten who he is. :P

OutThere
September 18th, 2006, 08:58 PM
Again, it is understandable John would be wary of Ronon/Rodney and not Teyla, so far she's the only one who hasn't in some way let him down or made him question his trust. Rodney in Trinity even knew that he tested John's trust level, he was sincere in his apology---but there's definitely a rebuilding of the relationship that is necessary---John is probably still reacting to that. With Ronon, even though he understands Ronon, the guy is still a major wild card. He would do something reckless that could harm people before really getting the alternatives.

I don't see it as a subliminal trust thing-- although possibly that could figure into there somewhere-- but Ronon saw Teyla in his hallucination, and tried to rush in and protect her from John. I was thinking that the machine might have been designed to protect the Wraith from their victims' ravings; not only did Teyla's Wraith DNA make her immune to its effects, but the others would even try to protect her from harm (until they reached the insanity level of Leonard; then everything would be fair game).

ShadowMaat
September 19th, 2006, 04:28 AM
Well, it'd be to the Wraith's benefit to have their victims trust them, wouldn't it? ;) In fact, I'd say it's the only thing that makes sense. After all, what's the point of confusing your enemy with hallucinations if he's still going to try to shoot you on sight? :P

prion
September 19th, 2006, 05:01 AM
I thought Sheppard was being a professional soldier here, and that's why he was outwardly calm. He also must have known it wasn't his fault that he shot Ronon and McKay. I'm sure he felt pretty upset about it though. I also think perhaps Sheppard was holding it together until they're all safely home, and then he'd have a little freak out - along with the rest of the team!

I agree. While he may feel inwardly crappy about having shot his friends (not that Ronon wasn't trying to kill HIM), he'll hold it together till they're back home, safe and sound (well, except for that niggling 'we drained the ZPM stuff') and probably have a nasty nightmare or two....

prion
September 19th, 2006, 05:08 AM
Yeah, well, I can think of a few exceptions, but generally speaking I consider both Stargates to be a bit... toothless? They lead up to big things, they toe around the edges once in a while, but then they drag out the Big Bad Reset Button and throw a handful of cliched dei ex machinis at whatever the problem is and everything goes back to boring normal.

Not a popular opinion, I know, and I'm really not interested in defending my viewpoint, but there it is anyway. ;)

Why not give us something we aren't expecting? Why not show us something we don't know? Why not take some bloody damn chances once in a while? *sigh* But that's not what Stargate is about, I know. That's one thing that will NEVER change.

At least the Carson stuff was good. Nice to know TPTB haven't forgotten who he is. :P

Yes, the writers do tend to hit the 'reset' button in some regards. I'd rather they not do that, give us some 'meat' with the stories. After all, the characters have been through some tough times (like, say, Shep getting fed on by a wraith!) and yet, we don't see any repercussions from that.

vaberella
September 19th, 2006, 05:19 AM
I don't see it as a subliminal trust thing-- although possibly that could figure into there somewhere-- but Ronon saw Teyla in his hallucination, and tried to rush in and protect her from John. I was thinking that the machine might have been designed to protect the Wraith from their victims' ravings; not only did Teyla's Wraith DNA make her immune to its effects, but the others would even try to protect her from harm (until they reached the insanity level of Leonard; then everything would be fair game).
Yeah, I didn't see that. I figured. that out of everyone out there that Ronon really trusted Teyla--or felt a like comraderie based on lineage, he didn't see McKay for Mckay, or it didn't look that way to me. Looked like an unmoving log of some kind. Not only that, going back to let's say Duet, or various moments in the show like in Trinity, Teyla appears the only one who doesn't seem to be a threat for Ronon and someone he automatically attached himself too. Someone like himself who knows the Wraith and what they can do; thus being more of companion based on heritage than the others, who are foreigners to him.

I don't think so about the whole protecting Teyla thing, I thouught they used it as an easy diversion, so their attack on the unassuming would be managed easier. Remember back to Rising 2, which this is all sort of connected with; John almost shot Teyla in Rising 2 until he recognized it was her. So that sort of twists that logic a bit. At that point she wasn't anything but Teyla and he sent out a message out saying they were just shadows not real! A little bit longer and they'd all be killing the Athosians in Rising 2.

doylefan22
September 19th, 2006, 06:07 AM
I thought the overreacting of McKay to the "power levles rising and explosion" was just a tetch too much for me, but that's just IMO. :)

As far as he was concerned the power levels were rising to dangerous levels and he couldn't figure out why, nor could he stop it. When it looked like it was going to explode he got the hell out of there and threw himself down to try to protect himself from any flying debris. Seems like a pretty normal reaction to me!

Notice he was the only one to know and realise that he was hallucinating...

Linzi
September 19th, 2006, 06:41 AM
As far as he was concerned the power levels were rising to dangerous levels and he couldn't figure out why, nor could he stop it. When it looked like it was going to explode he got the hell out of there and threw himself down to try to protect himself from any flying debris. Seems like a pretty normal reaction to me!

Notice he was the only one to know and realise that he was hallucinating...
I did notice that. The wraith technology obviously didn't affect McKay as much as everyone else. Wonder why? Perhaps the genius of his brain chemistry came into play and frightened the wraith tech away? Seriously, I wonder if it was something to do with brain chemistry? As it affected everyone else pretty badly, except for Teyla.
I didn't personally think McKay reacted to the overloading of the power to the device any differently to how he normally would. I also tittered when the poor guy threw himself to the ground, and there was no explosion. Ouch!

Jeyla4ever
September 19th, 2006, 06:53 AM
Good points Wilson....It was good stuff...and didn't Rodney say to her while he was lying on the floor, I"ve already explain to you how to shut it off..or something like that...so he knew that Teyla could do it..it was just a matter of her doing it....I don't think he told her to plead with Sheppard...he just knew she was the only one besides him that knew how to shut it off..She in turn knew that only John could get her in there and only John was capable since her injury to shut it down.....

and yes, if one thing we've learned about Teyla is that she's becoming very knowledgeable in things....she is paying very close attention to Rodney even if half the time he's boring her to death...and I thought it was so clever...again...had they listened to Teyla in the first place, none of this would have happened....Dang it..will they ever learn to listen to her?

then again, there wouldn't have been no Phantoms....

Luz
September 19th, 2006, 07:26 AM
and yes, if one thing we've learned about Teyla is that she's becoming very knowledgeable in things....she is paying very close attention to Rodney even if half the time he's boring her to death...and I thought it was so clever...again...had they listened to Teyla in the first place, none of this would have happened....Dang it..will they ever learn to listen to her?

then again, there wouldn't have been no Phantoms....
Exactly, they had to get in trouble because it's team Sheppard, I bet you the other SGA teams just go and make boring deals for coffee substitutes while Team Sheppard makes everything go BOOM. :D

Mitchell82
September 19th, 2006, 07:56 AM
Exactly, they had to get in trouble because it's team Sheppard, I bet you the other SGA teams just go and make boring deals for coffee substitutes while Team Sheppard makes everything go BOOM. :D
Yeah thats much more fun than trying to figure out what flavor substitue to trade for. I bet SGA-1 has a wating list 10 miles long.;)

prion
September 19th, 2006, 09:23 AM
I did notice that. The wraith technology obviously didn't affect McKay as much as everyone else. Wonder why? Perhaps the genius of his brain chemistry came into play and frightened the wraith tech away? Seriously, I wonder if it was something to do with brain chemistry? As it affected everyone else pretty badly, except for Teyla.
I didn't personally think McKay reacted to the overloading of the power to the device any differently to how he normally would. I also tittered when the poor guy threw himself to the ground, and there was no explosion. Ouch!

Actually, it did affect him just as much, just differently. While both SHep and Ronon found themselves in military/fight situations, and Beckett faced the horrors of being unable to keep patients alive, Rodney was faced with benig UNABLE to solve a problem he knew he should have solved, and it escalated just like it did with the Arcturus Experiment. They just all had their different little nightmares.

Oh yes, landing face first on ground hurts. I'd really like someone to go 'dang, bruised knees, elbows, palms. ouch ouch.'

prion
September 19th, 2006, 09:32 AM
Exactly, they had to get in trouble because it's team Sheppard, I bet you the other SGA teams just go and make boring deals for coffee substitutes while Team Sheppard makes everything go BOOM. :D

Heh, at least I give them credit. They don't lose whole honkin spaceships. ;) Let SG1 have one and poof, it's gone. Oh wait, no, that was Lorne at command of the uh, er, that alien spaceship whose name I can't recall cuz it sure as heck didn't last that long....

CalmStorm
September 19th, 2006, 09:47 AM
Actually, it did affect him just as much, just differently. While both SHep and Ronon found themselves in military/fight situations, and Beckett faced the horrors of being unable to keep patients alive, Rodney was faced with benig UNABLE to solve a problem he knew he should have solved, and it escalated just like it did with the Arcturus Experiment. They just all had their different little nightmares.

However, with McKay, he did realize after it did not explode, that he was hallucinating. No screaming or amount of logic looked like it would break Shep, Ronon, and/or Beckett of the hold of the hallucination. He was able to realize the hallucination, and then had enough sense left to direct Teyla that she knew what to do.

OutThere
September 19th, 2006, 10:07 AM
However, with McKay, he did realize after it did not explode, that he was hallucinating.

That's something that's been bugging me: why didn't it explode in McKays hallucination? Was it because he was less effected, and his mind couldn't produce such a drastic bit of unreality? By contrast, Sheppard was completely pulled into his hallucination, imagining a whole other time and place that he couldn't be snapped out of.

Ronon, Carson, Rodney, and even Leonard at least kept the terrain of the planet in their hallucinations. Poor Shep went completely wacko. No wonder Rodney kept repeating, "You shot me!" in such a disbelieving tone. I never would have thought it would be Shep who would be the one to flip out completely.

CalmStorm
September 19th, 2006, 10:40 AM
That's something that's been bugging me: why didn't it explode in McKays hallucination? Was it because he was less effected, and his mind couldn't produce such a drastic bit of unreality? By contrast, Sheppard was completely pulled into his hallucination, imagining a whole other time and place that he couldn't be snapped out of.

In all of their hallucinations, it was based somewhat on current circumstances. Ronon saw Shep as wraith and Shep saw Ronon as Taliban. They also saw "phantom" images of people that were not actually there. My guess is that those "phantoms" would not have been able to cause any physical harm. If they had "fired" a weapon, nothing would have happened to either Shep or Ronon as they were not really there. However, Shep and Ronon are very much real, and when they fire their weapons, real bullets/energy beams actually fly causing injury.

The device did not explode in McKay's hallucination, because there was nothing occurring outside the hallucination that would have caused the view of an explosion.

That's just my guess though, who really knows :S

OutThere
September 19th, 2006, 10:49 AM
In all of their hallucinations, it was based somewhat on current circumstances. Ronon saw Shep as wraith and Shep saw Ronon as Taliban. They also saw "phantom" images of people that were not actually there. My guess is that those "phantoms" would not have been able to cause any physical harm. If they had "fired" a weapon, nothing would have happened to either Shep or Ronon as they were not really there. However, Shep and Ronon are very much real, and when they fire their weapons, real bullets/energy beams actually fly causing injury.

The device did not explode in McKay's hallucination, because there was nothing occurring outside the hallucination that would have caused the view of an explosion.

That's just my guess though, who really knows :S

**Thinks really hard trying to remember if anything in the episode contradicts this theory** Okay, I think that works :) So my next question is: if my head explodes from overthinking things, and no one's around to hear it, does it still make a sound?

CalmStorm
September 19th, 2006, 11:10 AM
So my next question is: if my head explodes from overthinking things, and no one's around to hear it, does it still make a sound?

If no one is around to hear it, then no one is around to see it, so can we be certain that it really exploded at all? ;)

doylefan22
September 19th, 2006, 12:47 PM
That's something that's been bugging me: why didn't it explode in McKays hallucination? Was it because he was less effected, and his mind couldn't produce such a drastic bit of unreality? By contrast, Sheppard was completely pulled into his hallucination, imagining a whole other time and place that he couldn't be snapped out of.

Maybe Rodney was right and the device was shielding him from its own effects some what. Either the shielding wasn't entirely effective because it'd been turned up so high or his trips out to talk to Carson allowed it to affect him a little. Or perhaps geniuses just have different brain chemistry from the rest of us mere mortals. :D

ShadowMaat
September 19th, 2006, 01:19 PM
If no one is around to hear it, then no one is around to see it, so can we be certain that it really exploded at all? ;)
Ah, but how do you know there was a head to start with? :P

Linzi
September 19th, 2006, 01:38 PM
If no one is around to hear it, then no one is around to see it, so can we be certain that it really exploded at all? ;)
Oh now I'm really confused! ;)

OutThere
September 19th, 2006, 07:34 PM
Oh now I'm really confused! ;)

So's my head. Now it fears it has been a mere hallucination this entire time, rendering the question of its explosive nature moot :D

The Sweet Guy
September 19th, 2006, 08:28 PM
Cool episode, not the best out of season 3 but still pretty good. Sheppard's flashbacks were definetly the highlight but it wasn't really backstory. A episode where we learn about Sheppard's family or lack of is what I'm looking foward to (if they acknowledge it). I also enjoyed Beckett's scenes quite a lot, which was surprising as he usually isn't given anything interesting. One thing is bothering me though. When Sheppard and Ronon are shooting each other and Ronon gets shot, wouldn't he ever wonder why a Wraith just shot him with a bullet instead of a stunner?

vaberella
September 19th, 2006, 10:02 PM
I'm sorry, but I'm really not following your line of thinking. John saw them as Taliban well into his hallucination, when Teyla couldn't bring him out of it. Again, I don't think it had anything to do with Teyla, just who was with him to serve as the injured Holland. I think it's just reading way more into it.
You said that several times before, and since my first post on this topic. I'll say it again, I don't see it that way and didn't interpret that, and I'm far from being a die hard "romantic shipper", so mine is on the facts that I know in past seasons and relate it to this episode. Even other posters who are far from shippy, picked up something else from the scenes, so there's really no need to reiterate your point to me. As I said, I read it the first time and I don't agree.
I find it significant that John saw a friend, someone he risked his career (which, as I mentioned was something he loves a great deal) and life to save; that's what he saw in Teyla. Again, with Rodney he saw an enemy, it may deep into his hallucination but he saw an enemy. All I'm saying following in that logic, I find it likely if Rodney was shot at in place of Teyla, he would still be seen as an enemy, and as Rodney is laying there---we still see a vision of an enemy, even after injury. And again, Ronon was seen as an enemy and he was fighting ALONG-SIDE John and Teyla.
Again you may not read that, but that's neither here or there for me, I just don't agree.

He saw Holland in Teyla because she was injured and suited the hallucination. I'm not arguing the friendship or the trust. I just don't think it's an issue in this episode. It sounds to me like you're trying to put more on the dynamic between John and Teyla than what was meant in this episode. And I think I'll disagree with you on him opening up only to Teyla.
Go ahead, I'm sure as hell not stopping you. So far no one knows about John's past from John's lips, they may have read his file or heard from the grapevine, be he hasn't said anything to anyone but to Teyla so far; this was slightly involuntary but he didn't shy away too much from her probing. She has a strong idea of what happened to him back then, she's the one he opened to and explained how he feels about the team in SATEDA. No one else has had those intimate moments with him. Of course though, maybe I'm blind and didn't actually see those scenes. :S
In Trinity the moment at the end with John and Rodney was completely one sided. So you can disagree, but I'm just following the eps that show the dynamic that I'm recieving. And Allies even shows how much he cares for her opinion, when there's really no need for him to have too, the scene wasn't called for but it was there. So apparently I see something that you're not seeing; and that's hella fine by me.
And check the above about Cpt. Holland, didn't see it fitting a hallucination and saw something else based on what I've seen in the past episodes.

He only saw one friend, the person who was with him the whole time during his hallucination. Given that his hallucination was in "enemy territory," of course he's going to see everyone else that way. It's got nothing to do with the events in Trinity or any other episode. John was so far gone that even the landscape changed. He so was not even remotely present on the forest planet (wherever they were). He had no clue that he was hallucinating whereas Rodney and Carson did.
Hm, maybe it has something to do with the levels of testosterone. Ronon was all running on a rampage and didn't seem to get "reality" either.
I have no clue about testosterone, since Teyla's situation was because of Wraith DNA, and the Wraith use it on humans. I figured it dealt with experience. Both Ronon and John are the proper military figures, and Rodney and Carson are far from military. Most of those guys who killed each other were military as well----I didn't think it had anything to do with testosterone; soldiers have a way different nightmare on life than a man who works in a 9 to 5 and drinks starbuck on a daily basis (especially those who were trained hard and dealt with friends and family loss, either through war or in the case of Ronon/Genii---Wraith attacks). Not only that McKay was the only one near lucid, and Carson was far from it---he saw zombies; and this is a man all to familiar with death, of course just the aftermath of war.
As for the hallucination, again going to past episodes, it was more than one person John was going to get or was with in Afghanistan, as noted in Home. Again my question is, why didn't John see another friend, like Rodney as someone else on his team---but an enemy, and this goes for being injured or not?! John didn't, he saw one, and that was seen in Teyla not the others.
Of course we don't know the full details, things are always being retconned, but you're statement on the hallucinations doesn't coincide in what was mentioned in Home, or what I interpreted in Home (for me anyway!)---Ronon or more likely, Rodney could easily have been that other friend. This is also another reason why I don't see Teyla as 'fitting' a role in John's hallucinations. She played more than that.

lily
September 20th, 2006, 04:02 AM
I agree. While he may feel inwardly crappy about having shot his friends (not that Ronon wasn't trying to kill HIM), he'll hold it together till they're back home, safe and sound (well, except for that niggling 'we drained the ZPM stuff') and probably have a nasty nightmare or two....
I agree. I can imagine Elizabeth ordering everyone to go and see Kate Heightmeyer. Any tag fics about it about there?


I did notice that. The wraith technology obviously didn't affect McKay as much as everyone else. Wonder why? Perhaps the genius of his brain chemistry came into play and frightened the wraith tech away? Seriously, I wonder if it was something to do with brain chemistry? As it affected everyone else pretty badly, except for Teyla.
Didn't Rodney say to Carson at one point that the place where the Wraith generator was was probably shielded? I don't remember the exact words, but I'm sure he said something about it at some point... or am I hallucinating? :D That might explain why he wasn't so affected by the device.



I didn't personally think McKay reacted to the overloading of the power to the device any differently to how he normally would. I also tittered when the poor guy threw himself to the ground, and there was no explosion. Ouch!
Ditto.

lily
September 20th, 2006, 04:12 AM
Heh, at least I give them credit. They don't lose whole honkin spaceships. ;) Let SG1 have one and poof, it's gone. Oh wait, no, that was Lorne at command of the uh, er, that alien spaceship whose name I can't recall cuz it sure as heck didn't last that long....
The Orion. :D

expendable_crewman
September 20th, 2006, 04:58 AM
All I'm saying following in that logic, I find it likely if Rodney was shot at in place of Teyla, he would still be seen as an enemy, and as Rodney is laying there---we still see a vision of an enemy, even after injury. And again, Ronon was seen as an enemy and he was fighting ALONG-SIDE John and Teyla.
[snip]
So far no one knows about John's past from John's lips, they may have read his file or heard from the grapevine, be he hasn't said anything to anyone but to Teyla so far; this was slightly involuntary but he didn't shy away too much from her probing. She has a strong idea of what happened to him back then, she's the one he opened to and explained how he feels about the team in SATEDA.
[snip]
Both Ronon and John are the proper military figures, and Rodney and Carson are far from military. Most of those guys who killed each other were military as well----I didn't think it had anything to do with testosterone; soldiers have a way different nightmare on life than a man who works in a 9 to 5 and drinks starbuck on a daily basis (especially those who were trained hard and dealt with friends and family loss, either through war or in the case of Ronon/Genii---Wraith attacks). Not only that McKay was the only one near lucid, and Carson was far from it---he saw zombies; and this is a man all to familiar with death, of course just the aftermath of war.I do agree with a lot of what you said here.

At this point, I'm not really sure it's important why this has become canon, but it is true that Teyla was present when we (the viewers) got some of Sheppard's military backstory in Home and she got the one-on-one in Sateda. Now she has more. To date, she is the only characater with this info.

I've always been fascinated by Teyla as a character because we're supposed to see her as a person who grew up with the knowledge that no matter what she did, what she dreamed about, what kind of life she built for herself, inevitably something relentless and dark would come out of the sky and take it all away.

This certainty is woven into many season one storylines, along with the way different Pegasus cultures adapted.

Teyla remained a fighter. As a woman, I identify with that.

Now coming from a military background myself, I didn't need a full color glossy to get the picture that Sheppard had war trauma. Based on what they told us in Rising, I figured he had a hard time somehow. So I appreciated the dynmaic we saw in season one, with Sheppard and Teyla sort of getting into this trust thing right off the bat. Peas in a pod.

I think there are posters on this thread who are trying to point out that the above relates to Phantoms inasmuch as Sheppard drew Teyla into his delusion when he could have looked at her and seen an enemy. I figure there are posters who can think up other explanations, so it's okay if my opinion doesn't work for everyone but it works for some and that should be okay too.

Now for Phantoms, this hallucination / machine-effect thing ... I say, throw out the rule book. Sheppard was in the desert and didn't run into any trees. Rodney and Carson saw each other but Sheppard saw Rodney as the enemy. Leonard saw everyone as the enemy. Sheppard, McKay, and Ronon recognized Teyla. From this layout, IMO, we're supposed to believe the effect was unpredicatble. And it didn't swallow you whole. Sheppard incorporated what he needed into his visions. If he couldn't do that, how could he see Rodney as more than a pile of sand in order to shoot him? Somehow he perceived the trees and he perceived Ronon and Rodney. I very much doubt that Captain Holland's wound was the same as Teyla's wound, I don't know how many years later and a galaxy away .... Come on. But Sheppard was able to treat her injury while in his delusion.

Someone mentioned the choice to flashback as opposed to plain old delusions. Leonard or a fellow on his team cried out for the Prometheus, which is long gone. Okay, not long gone. I'm still in mourning for it, actually. So Sheppard's wasn't the only flashback.

On the "Is this really a dark ep?" question, I can't speak for everyone else. Here's my criteria for Dark Ep:

* We see the bodies of the Team's comrades shot to death on the ground and subsequently learn they were killed by another comrade.

* We see the Team carry their comrades' bodies through the woods. No blood needed for me to imagine what bodies chewed up by MP5s look like. And they've been dead more than a few hours, so they smell. *Shudders*

* Another comrade gets blown up and dies in front of the Team trying to dial home while the Team hunkers down away from the fire of a guy they're trying to rescue.

* The Team's comrade holds a grenade to his chest and blows himself to bits, so the lead character says, "I gotta get his dog tags," which to my mind means that's all they'll be scooping up of Major Leonard today (another shudder), after which the lead character says bye-bye in what is arguably a combination of post trauma stress and Wraith device-influence, since he's looking at what's left of his comrade when he says it.

The images the episode evoked were dark and creepy. And I haven't covered dead people helping with CPR on a guy who doesn't need CPR and just the overall creepiness of the machine chamber with its sticky, blood-colored conduits.

For me this ep did not call to mind a "filler" installment at all, but rather the younger seasons of SG1, when Stargate was about going through the event horizon on foot, encountering alien cultures, and confronting technology that surprised our heroes and sometimes harmed them.

I'm definitely bumping this episode to my favorites list.

stubadingdong
September 20th, 2006, 08:17 AM
You said that several times before, and since my first post on this topic. I'll say it again, I don't see it that way and didn't interpret that, and I'm far from being a die hard "romantic shipper", so mine is on the facts that I know in past seasons and relate it to this episode. Even other posters who are far from shippy, picked up something else from the scenes, so there's really no need to reiterate your point to me. As I said, I read it the first time and I don't agree.

Great! Again, we'll have to agree to disagree.


I find it significant that John saw a friend, someone he risked his career (which, as I mentioned was something he loves a great deal) and life to save; that's what he saw in Teyla. Again, with Rodney he saw an enemy, it may deep into his hallucination but he saw an enemy. All I'm saying following in that logic, I find it likely if Rodney was shot at in place of Teyla, he would still be seen as an enemy, and as Rodney is laying there---we still see a vision of an enemy, even after injury. And again, Ronon was seen as an enemy and he was fighting ALONG-SIDE John and Teyla.
Again you may not read that, but that's neither here or there for me, I just don't agree.

Ok, we'll have to agree to disagree...still.


Go ahead, I'm sure as hell not stopping you. So far no one knows about John's past from John's lips, they may have read his file or heard from the grapevine, be he hasn't said anything to anyone but to Teyla so far; this was slightly involuntary but he didn't shy away too much from her probing. She has a strong idea of what happened to him back then, she's the one he opened to and explained how he feels about the team in SATEDA. No one else has had those intimate moments with him. Of course though, maybe I'm blind and didn't actually see those scenes. :S

Ok fine...again, agree to disagree. You really don't need to explain anything to me. Nor I to you. I didn't elaborate because I didn't feel it was part of this discussion. My point was there are other characters on this show that John talks to and is close to.


In Trinity the moment at the end with John and Rodney was completely one sided. So you can disagree, but I'm just following the eps that show the dynamic that I'm recieving. And Allies even shows how much he cares for her opinion, when there's really no need for him to have too, the scene wasn't called for but it was there. So apparently I see something that you're not seeing; and that's hella fine by me.
And check the above about Cpt. Holland, didn't see it fitting a hallucination and saw something else based on what I've seen in the past episodes.

I still don't understand what past episodes have to do with this one. I just don't think it was "significant" that it was Teyla with him. That's all I'm saying. I've made my point and now I'm done. You can talk all you want, but you're still not getting your argument through. Logically, I don't get the significance. And just to be clear, it's not YOU that I'm not getting. I just don't see what you're seeing.

So one more time, we'll have to agree to disagree.


I have no clue about testosterone, since Teyla's situation was because of Wraith DNA, and the Wraith use it on humans. I figured it dealt with experience. Both Ronon and John are the proper military figures, and Rodney and Carson are far from military. Most of those guys who killed each other were military as well----I didn't think it had anything to do with testosterone; soldiers have a way different nightmare on life than a man who works in a 9 to 5 and drinks starbuck on a daily basis (especially those who were trained hard and dealt with friends and family loss, either through war or in the case of Ronon/Genii---Wraith attacks). Not only that McKay was the only one near lucid, and Carson was far from it---he saw zombies; and this is a man all to familiar with death, of course just the aftermath of war.

Well, my bad. I was joking. I failed to use a winkie-face and thus the joke was lost. I apologize that you took it as a serious remark.


As for the hallucination, again going to past episodes, it was more than one person John was going to get or was with in Afghanistan, as noted in Home. Again my question is, why didn't John see another friend, like Rodney as someone else on his team---but an enemy, and this goes for being injured or not?! John didn't, he saw one, and that was seen in Teyla not the others.
Of course we don't know the full details, things are always being retconned, but you're statement on the hallucinations doesn't coincide in what was mentioned in Home, or what I interpreted in Home (for me anyway!)---Ronon or more likely, Rodney could easily have been that other friend. This is also another reason why I don't see Teyla as 'fitting' a role in John's hallucinations. She played more than that.

Again, we disagree on the significance. I think it was just happenstance, nothing more. You can keep on reiterating your point, but it still isn't making sense to me.

Luz
September 20th, 2006, 08:44 AM
I still don't understand what past episodes have to do with this one. I just don't think it was "significant" that it was Teyla with him. That's all I'm saying. I've made my point and now I'm done. You can talk all you want, but you're still not getting your argument through. Logically, I don't get the significance. And just to be clear, it's not YOU that I'm not getting. I just don't see what you're seeing.

He incorporated one circumstance from reality into his hallucination, his comrade was shot, and Teyla by coincidence was shot too, she was just there and he incorporated her as his shot pal. Much like when you're sleeping and the phone rings and your brain doesn't want you to wake up so your subconscious brings the ringing into the dream. It's no a signal from the universe that you're by some cosmic rule forever binded to the ringing, or that that telephone and you have this oh so special connection, or anything, the telephone was just there ringing, it doesn't have to be taken as a sign of your tuw wuv *lol*.

stubadingdong
September 20th, 2006, 09:04 AM
He incorporated one circumstance from reality into his hallucination, his comrade was shot, and Teyla by coincidence was shot too, she was just there and he incorporated her as his shot pal. Much like when you're sleeping and the phone rings and your brain doesn't want you to wake up so your subconscious brings the ringing into the dream. It's no a signal from the universe that you're by some cosmic rule forever binded to the ringing, or that that telephone and you have this oh so special connection, or anything, the telephone was just there ringing, it doesn't have to be taken as a sign of your tuw wuv *lol*.

Exactly. :D

bluealien
September 20th, 2006, 10:02 AM
He incorporated one circumstance from reality into his hallucination, his comrade was shot, and Teyla by coincidence was shot too, she was just there and he incorporated her as his shot pal. Much like when you're sleeping and the phone rings and your brain doesn't want you to wake up so your subconscious brings the ringing into the dream. It's no a signal from the universe that you're by some cosmic rule forever binded to the ringing, or that that telephone and you have this oh so special connection, or anything, the telephone was just there ringing, it doesn't have to be taken as a sign of your tuw wuv *lol*.

I think the question is even though Teyla was shot and maybe triggered Sheppards hallunication, why did he see her as a friend and not an enemy. I think the person as well as the circumstances played very much into how his hallucination played out. Because of his relationship to Teyla even in his hallunicatory state he saw her as a friend. He has a pretty close bond with Teyla so subconsiously he still knew this was a friend and subsequently his hallicunation played out this way.

But eventhough his hallucination started when both Teyla and Ronan were with him, he immediatiately sees Ronan as an enemy. Again subconsiously maybe he doesn't completely trust Ronan - remember Ronan has shot him a few times.

Why did he see Rodney as an enemy - even after he shot him he still saw him as a Taliban. Again he and Rodney have been at loggerheads quite a bit. So it could very well be that his relationship to each of his team members had an effect on how his hallunination played out.

Pitry
September 20th, 2006, 12:07 PM
Maybe Rodney was right and the device was shielding him from its own effects some what. Either the shielding wasn't entirely effective because it'd been turned up so high or his trips out to talk to Carson allowed it to affect him a little. Or perhaps geniuses just have different brain chemistry from the rest of us mere mortals. :D

Yeah, that's what I thought, too. Note that at first, when Sheppard hallucinates, he's still able to notice he's hallucinating and that something is wrong, i.e Holland isn't supposed to be there. Same with Ronon - he didn't think Shepard was a wraith from the start, onyl afterwards - and Becket treated his patient quite a while before he started hallucinating - although in his case it isn't that obvious when it started - when the lieutenant that didn't make it tells him he's going to guard otuside, I take it this already is a hallucination?

If Rodney is shielded, then it could be just the beginning, in the phase his brani can still rebel and tell him "this isn't happening".

ShadowMaat
September 20th, 2006, 02:57 PM
Not to add fuel to the flamewar, but I sure as hell didn't give much thought to the fact that the ep was "OMG! Totally Sheyla!" and I'm die-hard anti-ship, prone to hating even the merest looks exchanged between characters. ;)

I know other people see things differently, though, and I have no problem with that. *shrug*

I do wonder, however, if the Wraith device was programmed specifically to make its victims see the wraith as "friends" or if it just portrayed them as neutral elements with the possibility- as in Teyla's case- of being seen as a "friend" by the hallucinating victim.

FoolishPleasure
September 21st, 2006, 05:58 AM
Not to add fuel to the flamewar, but I sure as hell didn't give much thought to the fact that the ep was "OMG! Totally Sheyla!" and I'm die-hard anti-ship, prone to hating even the merest looks exchanged between characters. ;)

I know other people see things differently, though, and I have no problem with that. *shrug*

I do wonder, however, if the Wraith device was programmed specifically to make its victims see the wraith as "friends" or if it just portrayed them as neutral elements with the possibility- as in Teyla's case- of being seen as a "friend" by the hallucinating victim.
There was Shep/Teyla romance? I didn't see any. :) I've never seen any. I thought this was kinda nice because Shep actually noticed Teyla existed for once, even if he did see her as a "guy". I took that as Shep accepting her as a full and important team player. Shep's team mate got injured in the past. A team mate got injured now. The Wraith machine pushed both incidents together in his mind. That is all. There was no romantic bonding with the universe. :rolleyes: These writers don't go that deep.

Frankly, I found the Shep scenes repetitive and boring. The Carson and McKay scenes were more interesting to me, especially the Carson angle.

Thankfully tomorrow we get a new episode. :)

sparklegem
September 21st, 2006, 08:14 AM
Just saw Phantoms last night, and though I don't have time to discuss the many positives of the episode or read others' opinions, I was compelled to mention how much I disliked the ending after one viewing. I'll take another look at it later. Sorry to be negative, but it was the one thing that put a damper on an otherwise intense, enthralling episode.

This was a horrible episode for the team: they lost 6 (I think) of their own men, one who committed suicide in front of them, another who died in their care because they couldn't power down the wraith technology fast enough, etc. One of those deaths could have easily been from a member of "Team Sheppard" (like if McKay had dialed the gate), and they very nearly killed each other anyway.

I don't see why TPTB insisted on having the false 'everything's okay now' humor moments at the end, which comes across as grating, and undermines the serious truth of the characters' experiences. Perhaps it was intended to be the kind of dark humor that comes from it finally being over or keeping it together or being in shock from such an experience, but that's not how it came across to me. Rodney's my favorite character. And I've read how some think his character's losing integrity for comic relief. I need to watch the episode again because sometimes I change my mind after another viewing, but I felt at that first viewing that the end was a perfect example of it. At his third utterance of "You shot me" I literally yelled at him to shut up (with another element added to the exclamation), and I've never yelled at Rodney. It would have been more understandable soon after the situation was diffused, but this is after they've contacted Atlantis, gotten supplies, done surgeries, and everything squared away. And then everyone smiles at Rodney, Ronan gives a hearty chuckle and John patronizes him. And John's "I'm sorry I shot everyone" seemed to paint all the dire seriousness out of the experience. Would another team be cracking jokes as they took care of Sheppard's team's bodies?

Anyway, in short, the end really rubbed me the wrong way.

ShadowMaat
September 21st, 2006, 01:49 PM
I tend to agree, spark. TPTB don't seem to understand the balance between grim and funny and in McKay's case especially they seem to think that a joke that's funny once is just as funny (or funnier) the third, fourth, and fifth time it's made. :rolleyes:

MarshAngel
September 21st, 2006, 06:08 PM
I just watched the episode today and I have to agree. They have lost so many people I just don't understand how they can continue to be so callous about it particularly when they are so often dying for no gain for Atlantis, Earth, or anyone else.
I understand they're grateful for their own lives but why is it that once a person is dead, they're forgotten? They aren't owed any reverence at all? It's just one of a long list of items that make them look bad from an object pov.
We've established they care about each other but can we please ascertain if other people matter to them at all?