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sg-1fanintn
September 15th, 2006, 10:04 PM
If this has already been posted, please forgive me. If it has not, I thought you would be interested in the observation.

I loved this ep! I hope they bring "Mrs. Miller" back again. But did you notice when Jeannie was talking to the Rodney from the alternate universe, and he showed her photos of the children the sister in his reality had, two of the names were "little Robbie and Bradley."

As in RCC and BW? Snark! Tee-hee!

maxbo
September 18th, 2006, 01:57 PM
Despite not being a Grace Under Pressure fan and being supremely irked about the lack of Carson, I loved this episode. I think the reason this it worked for me, where GUP didn't, is that most of it was shown through Rodney's eyes. Just the thought of that makes me chuckle.

Although I'm not usually a fan of extended, non-regular character scenes, I love the way Jeannie was introduced. I don't think the episode would have worked as well if we hadn't seen a glimpse of Jeannie's lifestyle before she became aware of the Stargate program. I also loved her reactions after she became aware of the Stargate program because we haven't seen that type of awe since Season 1.

The Rodney and Jeannie scenes were pure gold and had just the right amount of hurt, anger, disappointment and undercurrent of love on both sides. Watching them snark at each other was fun and although they came a long way by the end of the episode, it was good to see that they still had a long way to go. I hope we get to see more of Jeannie throughout the series to see them work through their issues.

The team scenes were tiny, but significant, because it was good to see proof that the Team hang out together outside of SGA missions. And, it was good to see how important the Team is to Rodney, just as it was good to see how important Jeannie is to him. IMO, Rodney's reactions to the teasing was more a reflection of his paranoia and insecurities than any real cruelty on the part of the Team, Jeannie and Rod. After all, we've seen Rodney give and take (especially *give*) verbal abuse often enough to know that if he's feeling secure, he can give as good as he gets.

When I first heard about Rod, I thought his scenes would amount to McKay overkill, instead, I loved what he added to the episode. Yes, he was the source of Rodney's insecurities, but he was also the catalyst for getting Rodney to acknowledge some of his faults.

A couple my favorite scenes were when Rod told Rodney that despite his Team not being as easy to get along with as Rodney's team, that he (Rod) wanted to get back to them because they were his team. I thought that scene complemented the last scene where the Team realized that Rodney wasn't taking the teasing well and needed their reassurance that they preferred him to the AU-Mckay.

The only negative was the lack of Carson.

BnF95
September 22nd, 2006, 05:45 AM
This was a hilarious episode, it shows a more "human" side to McKay.

A.L.
September 22nd, 2006, 10:16 PM
I realize I'm a little late in posting on this one as the mid-season finale just finished airing the second time, but I don't think it's too late to post my opinion and tell those involved with the show just what I thought.

I thought this was a great episode. I know some people have gotten frustrated with so much McKay but I like him - now anyway. :D And I loved that we finally got to meet his sister. I loved the relationship between them and how they came to an understanding.

I also loved how it shed some light on Rodney's own relationships with his teammates. There wasn't enough Lizzie in this epi to my dismay but this seemed to be more about McKay and his teammates and sister so I'm okay with that.

Also, I think the action!plot left something to be desired but again, this was more about McKay than the science. It was a good character building epi and I love those as much as the full of action and plot twist ones.

AL

Willow'sCat
September 25th, 2006, 05:37 PM
This was a hilarious episode, it shows a more "human" side to McKay.Yes because before he was just a robot. :rolleyes: :p

I think it showed a more emotional side to him, a deeper side to his character but McKay has always been "human" just not the cuddly Carson type. :p I prefer the more arrogant, not giving a frak what people think of him side, but that is just me "apparently". :cool:

If they continue to follow through with these changes to his character I may come around to actually liking this "shiny, new" McKay, I don't mind it as part of character growth and development but when it is only for plot reasons and never used/seen again I don't see the point. The Return pt 1 seems to have followed through somewhat, but of course that was also written by Martin Gero, I await a Joe Mallozzi script or a Wright/Cooper one (those two are great with the old school Rodney but no so much this newer SGA one) to test this "new" McKay out, that will be the clincher as those three have never been very good IMHO at following through with consistency when writing McKay. I do have some concerns with even Gero's inconsistency when writing McKay, but he still does a better job then the old war horses of SG *again IMHO* :cool:

Strangely enough I really would like a Peter DeLuise script/story his season one "Defiant One" was a shining beacon for McKay development and emotional angst. :D

Dr McKay
September 28th, 2006, 09:21 AM
i really liked the bit at the end where john showed mckays sister the video footage from the previous years, showing that he does infact care. then at the end them both hugging and setting things straight. it was great seeing this side of rodney (meradith LOL)

Danner
September 29th, 2006, 09:59 PM
Well it seems that (as far as this board is concerned anyway) I'm in the extreme minority here when I say that this particular episode sounds like something I never want to see.

From what I can gather, it's a McKaycentric episode and that alone should have been enough to have me jumping for joy, until I starting reading feedback on it here and elsewhere.

The basic idea sounds just fine and from what I can gather, there are some wonderful moments between McKay and his sister and McKay and Sheppard, both sound so wonderful as to make my heart sing. Trouble is, I seemed to have momentarily forgotten the abysmally juvenile nature of the show's writers and that could be because Gero wrote this, and I normally love Gero, but he seems to have channelled, Cooper and Wright during some of this.

I can't fail but to notice that many people don't seem to 'see' Rodney (and I refuse to acknowledge the painfully stupid and not so surprising addition of his 'true' first name... obviously, the writers just seem to wet themselves silly over taking the pi...err, making fun of Rodney). Has everyone on Atlantis forgotten how many times they have been saved by McKay's genius and quick thinking (something that the writers also seem to be keen to diminish along the way).

Did (as one example of many) Rodney spend his time frantically working on, and ultimately succeeding in, breaking Weir's codes so as prevent Teyla from having to shoot a possessed Sheppard, only so that he can innocently walk in on him and others laughing their ar...backsides off at his expense? Is this the sort of jollies our 'reassuring' commanding officer and 'honourable' Athosian warrior gets off on? (I sort of expect no better from Ronon) - Would they find the picture (they obviously had in their heads), this funny had they witnessed this very thing happening to the child Rodney had been at the time? Frankly, the entire scene sickens me.

We've seen Rodney show concern over all his team mates at one time or another, his horror at Sheppard being culled by the wraith, his distaste for having to go through Teyla's belongings when her people were suspected of informing the wraith of the Atlantians missions, his concern over Ronon's well-being... we've seen it all on well more than one occassion... not to mention many moments of bravery, especially considering he's not trained as a soldier or warrior. Looking just beneath the surface of Rodney McKay they should see the very complex and caring individual he actually is... they only have to look to the actions and not the words. Yet, they do not seem to look that deeply, or they would have been horrified by Rodney's childhood trauma and not amused by it, (not that they should have been anyway) and frankly, I'm appalled that they were... I have lost some respect for them as a result of this.

Re: the team bonding I have read about... I don't know if it comes across any different to what I have been reading, but it sounds to me, more like the "team" had to put in a effort to show McKay that he belonged... really something they shouldn't have to do if he *did* actually belong to the "team" - I would have thought that putting his life on the line right along side of them every time they ventured out would have bonded them without the need for the "team" to have to make the effort to make him feel included... comes across as more than a little patronising to me.

Re: Jeannie... I have heard much lauding of this character, and most of it sounds good, and I would love to be able to love this character... to know that Rodney has someone he is close to... but what I can't help but focus on is the one very big and almost irredeemable action of this character... I have read how she seemed in awe of her journey, how Rodney introduced her to the wonders she was experiencing... and I can't help but think on how she repays her brother this incredible moment in her life by betraying him to his co-workers, his team, the people he breaks bread with on a daily basis... I don't care what her reasons were, you don't betray family and certainly not in such a manner as this.

I have been blowing hot and cold on this show for some time now, season two turned me from an avid watcher to a sometimes watcher and made me realise that this was a season I would not be purchasing on DVD, I haven't been all that excited about what I have been reading in the transcripts for season 3 but was interested in watching, just in case the episode came out better on screen, but "McKay and Mrs Miller" was the straw that broke the camel's back, for me...

...Not really surprised that the show would end for me before it ended for others... but I did have a pathetic hope nonetheless that this one would work out better than Stargate SG1 did... oh well, like I said, not totally surprised, but I am deeply and bitterly disappointed.

Linzi
September 30th, 2006, 01:28 AM
Well it seems that (as far as this board is concerned anyway) I'm in the extreme minority here when I say that this particular episode sounds like something I never want to see.

From what I can gather, it's a McKaycentric episode and that alone should have been enough to have me jumping for joy, until I starting reading feedback on it here and elsewhere.

The basic idea sounds just fine and from what I can gather, there are some wonderful moments between McKay and his sister and McKay and Sheppard, both sound so wonderful as to make my heart sing. Trouble is, I seemed to have momentarily forgotten the abysmally juvenile nature of the show's writers and that could be because Gero wrote this, and I normally love Gero, but he seems to have channelled, Cooper and Wright during some of this.

I can't fail but to notice that many people don't seem to 'see' Rodney (and I refuse to acknowledge the painfully stupid and not so surprising addition of his 'true' first name... obviously, the writers just seem to wet themselves silly over taking the pi...err, making fun of Rodney). Has everyone on Atlantis forgotten how many times they have been saved by McKay's genius and quick thinking (something that the writers also seem to be keen to diminish along the way).

Did (as one example of many) Rodney spend his time frantically working on, and ultimately succeeding in, breaking Weir's codes so as prevent Teyla from having to shoot a possessed Sheppard, only so that he can innocently walk in on him and others laughing their ar...backsides off at his expense? Is this the sort of jollies our 'reassuring' commanding officer and 'honourable' Athosian warrior gets off on? (I sort of expect no better from Ronon) - Would they find the picture (they obviously had in their heads), this funny had they witnessed this very thing happening to the child Rodney had been at the time? Frankly, the entire scene sickens me.

We've seen Rodney show concern over all his team mates at one time or another, his horror at Sheppard being culled by the wraith, his distaste for having to go through Teyla's belongings when her people were suspected of informing the wraith of the Atlantians missions, his concern over Ronon's well-being... we've seen it all on well more than one occassion... not to mention many moments of bravery, especially considering he's not trained as a soldier or warrior. Looking just beneath the surface of Rodney McKay they should see the very complex and caring individual he actually is... they only have to look to the actions and not the words. Yet, they do not seem to look that deeply, or they would have been horrified by Rodney's childhood trauma and not amused by it, (not that they should have been anyway) and frankly, I'm appalled that they were... I have lost some respect for them as a result of this.

Re: the team bonding I have read about... I don't know if it comes across any different to what I have been reading, but it sounds to me, more like the "team" had to put in a effort to show McKay that he belonged... really something they shouldn't have to do if he *did* actually belong to the "team" - I would have thought that putting his life on the line right along side of them every time they ventured out would have bonded them without the need for the "team" to have to make the effort to make him feel included... comes across as more than a little patronising to me.

Re: Jeannie... I have heard much lauding of this character, and most of it sounds good, and I would love to be able to love this character... to know that Rodney has someone he is close to... but what I can't help but focus on is the one very big and almost irredeemable action of this character... I have read how she seemed in awe of her journey, how Rodney introduced her to the wonders she was experiencing... and I can't help but think on how she repays her brother this incredible moment in her life by betraying him to his co-workers, his team, the people he breaks bread with on a daily basis... I don't care what her reasons were, you don't betray family and certainly not in such a manner as this.

I have been blowing hot and cold on this show for some time now, season two turned me from an avid watcher to a sometimes watcher and made me realise that this was a season I would not be purchasing on DVD, I haven't been all that excited about what I have been reading in the transcripts for season 3 but was interested in watching, just in case the episode came out better on screen, but "McKay and Mrs Miller" was the straw that broke the camel's back, for me...

...Not really surprised that the show would end for me before it ended for others... but I did have a pathetic hope nonetheless that this one would work out better than Stargate SG1 did... oh well, like I said, not totally surprised, but I am deeply and bitterly disappointed.
From your post, I take it you haven't yet seen this episode? How on Earth can you judge it, if you haven't even watched it? How can you be disappointed, when you haven't seen it with your own eyes and are relying on other people's perspectives? Seeing other people's reviews may give you an idea of the content of the episode, but that can't form your opinion for you, can it? Seeing things on screen is very different from reading about an episode. I suggest you give it a try. I was pleasantly surprised when I watched M&MM, and I had so many preconceived ideas that were totally wrong. I had to eat my words about the episode, maybe you'll have to do the same.

bluealien
September 30th, 2006, 04:02 AM
From your post, I take it you haven't yet seen this episode? How on Earth can you judge it, if you haven't even watched it? How can you be disappointed, when you haven't seen it with your own eyes and are relying on other people's perspectives? Seeing other people's reviews may give you an idea of the content of the episode, but that can't form your opinion for you, can it? Seeing things on screen is very different from reading about an episode. I suggest you give it a try. I was pleasantly surprised when I watched M&MM, and I had so many preconceived ideas that were totally wrong. I had to eat my words about the episode, maybe you'll have to do the same.


I agree -

Danner you cannot judge an episode on other peoples comments. The episode is vey different to how you are interpreting peoples comments. To me it showed just how much his team and his sister care about McKay. We also see Rodney realise that HIS actions have also effected other people as well, his sister in particular.
I think you need to make your mind up about the ep after you have seen it.

Danner
September 30th, 2006, 07:09 AM
Linzi and bluealien, I appreciate what you are both saying and under normal circumstances I would be in full agreement with you both. It's true that in most instances an episode needs to be watched before it is judged, but I don't think either of you really understood where my gripe about this episode rested.

Whilst it is true re: the team bonding moment, I cannot be sure how it really is, and I did state that it may play differently on screen... but that was incidental to my main complaint, which was re: Jeannie McKay telling everyone about a very personal and traumatic moment in Rodney's childhood and the fact that his team found it amusing and mocked him... they may have been 'funning' him, but considering the fact that he was upset enough to face his sister about it means that not everyone was enjoying the joke... and when that happens then it's *not* a joke, it's just plain cruelty. There is no way under earth I could ever find that sort of thing acceptable, no matter how brilliantly the actors played the scene... so seeing it is entirely irrelevant to my complaint.

I also appreciate the fact that McKay may not have been the best brother in the world, but I can't imagine him ever doing or saying anything that would be considered an act of betrayal to his sister... this is what I was unhappy about, she could have been cold to him, yelled at him, told him he was an idiot, anything, and I would have been fine with that, they obviously had issues to work out... that was never my complaint... it was what she did that I find unforgiveable and no amount of watching the episode is going to alter the fact that what she did was deeply wrong.

I also am aware that the rest of the episode is excellent viewing, especially for McKay fans (or so I've been told), but I can't get beyond that one completely cruel scene.

Can you honestly tell me that that scene had merit, that it played an important part in the episode, that without it the episode would have lost valuable meaning? Something tells me that this is not the case, in which case, it really shouldn't have been there, and I can only imagine that it was for the usual reasons that have been popping up quite regularly and that is to further diminish Rodney McKay... and as a fan of the character, I have had enough..

For me personally, if there is an episode or movie with a scene in it which is totally unpalatable to me, then I can find no further merit in said episode or movie and therefore seeing the rest is pointless for me, so no matter how good the rest is, that one moment, that one action, that one scene has ruined the episode for me.

I feel compelled to point out that this is not the first time that McKay has been belittled and I don't imagine it would be the last, and I can't help but feel that should a similar thing had occurred to any of the others, then they would never have walked in on the others in such a fashion, it would have been a totally different matter entirely and all I really want is a little show of respect for the man, it's not like he hasn't earned some measure, in spite of his sharp tongue.

EDIT:

I've just noticed that I've overlooked an important point that you made bluealien:
"We also see Rodney realise that HIS actions have also effected other people as well, his sister in particular."

I'm curious as to what actions McKay have made that would warrant such behaviour from his teammates. I've seen all the eps from seasons one and two and I don't recall him doing anything bad to any of them. The sister is something that would no doubt be from the past so I can't comment on that, but like I said, was it anything bad enough to warrant what she did? Particularly after he obviously made the first move in contacting her and bringing her into his world... I seem to recall Sam Carter also having problems with her brother, but she didn't treat him in such a fashion when she finally met up with him again *and* she had to make the first move to boot.

Linzi
September 30th, 2006, 07:50 AM
Linzi and bluealien, I appreciate what you are both saying and under normal circumstances I would be in full agreement with you both. It's true that in most instances an episode needs to be watched before it is judged, but I don't think either of you really understood where my gripe about this episode rested.

Whilst it is true re: the team bonding moment, I cannot be sure how it really is, and I did state that it may play differently on screen... but that was incidental to my main complaint, which was re: Jeannie McKay telling everyone about a very personal and traumatic moment in Rodney's childhood and the fact that his team found it amusing and mocked him... they may have been 'funning' him, but considering the fact that he was upset enough to face his sister about it means that not everyone was enjoying the joke... and when that happens then it's *not* a joke, it's just plain cruelty. There is no way under earth I could ever find that sort of thing acceptable, no matter how brilliantly the actors played the scene... so seeing it is entirely irrelevant to my complaint.

I also appreciate the fact that McKay may not have been the best brother in the world, but I can't imagine him ever doing or saying anything that would be considered an act of betrayal to his sister... this is what I was unhappy about, she could have been cold to him, yelled at him, told him he was an idiot, anything, and I would have been fine with that, they obviously had issues to work out... that was never my complaint... it was what she did that I find unforgiveable and no amount of watching the episode is going to alter the fact that what she did was deeply wrong.

I also am aware that the rest of the episode is excellent viewing, especially for McKay fans (or so I've been told), but I can't get beyond that one completely cruel scene.

Can you honestly tell me that that scene had merit, that it played an important part in the episode, that without it the episode would have lost valuable meaning? Something tells me that this is not the case, in which case, it really shouldn't have been there, and I can only imagine that it was for the usual reasons that have been popping up quite regularly and that is to further diminish Rodney McKay... and as a fan of the character, I have had enough..

For me personally, if there is an episode or movie with a scene in it which is totally unpalatable to me, then I can find no further merit in said episode or movie and therefore seeing the rest is pointless for me, so no matter how good the rest is, that one moment, that one action, that one scene has ruined the episode for me.

I feel compelled to point out that this is not the first time that McKay has been belittled and I don't imagine it would be the last, and I can't help but feel that should a similar thing had occurred to any of the others, then they would never have walked in on the others in such a fashion, it would have been a totally different matter entirely and all I really want is a little show of respect for the man, it's not like he hasn't earned some measure, in spite of his sharp tongue.

EDIT:

I've just noticed that I've overlooked an important point that you made bluealien:
"We also see Rodney realise that HIS actions have also effected other people as well, his sister in particular."

I'm curious as to what actions McKay have made that would warrant such behaviour from his teammates. I've seen all the eps from seasons one and two and I don't recall him doing anything bad to any of them. The sister is something that would no doubt be from the past so I can't comment on that, but like I said, was it anything bad enough to warrant what she did? Particularly after he obviously made the first move in contacting her and bringing her into his world... I seem to recall Sam Carter also having problems with her brother, but she didn't treat him in such a fashion when she finally met up with him again *and* she had to make the first move to boot.
Well, having watched the scene where Rodney was teased because of a few embarrassing moments from his childhood told to his team by his sister, I can say that similar things have happened to me and I had a laugh about them, and joined in the fun at my expense. So, Rodney's teasing reminded me of my own experiences which just made me laugh. My family and friends do the same all the time. You have to be able to laugh at yourself, in my opinion, because if you don't, someone else will beat you to it, and you'll have a pretty unhappy life. It was basically good natured teasing, in my eyes, and wasn't malicious or nasty, though a few people have obviously not seen it that way. Unless you've actually seen it on screen, I don't see how you can say how it was meant. How can a scene be unnacceptable to you if you haven't seen it and formed your own opinions on it first hand? You're relying on things others have seen and reported, from their own perspectives, and therefore can't state an objective opinion.
You're missing the fact, that as wonderful as McKay is, he is, at times, an arrogant jerk. He gets alot of what he deserves and dishes it back out pretty well. In fact the way he treats his staff and Zelenka at times has been pretty appalling, remember 'Fumbles McStupid'? That wasn't exactly nice, was it? Poor Zelenka. Rodney isn't some poor sensitive soul, he's a grown man who happens to be socially inept, outspoken and a genius. I like him how he is, and don't want him to change, but don't sugar coat him either.

Danner
September 30th, 2006, 08:50 AM
Well, having watched the scene where Rodney was teased because of a few embarrassing moments from his childhood told to his team by his sister, I can say that similar things have happened to me and I had a laugh about them, and joined in the fun at my expense. So, Rodney's teasing reminded me of my own experiences which just made me laugh. My family and friends do the same all the time. You have to be able to laugh at yourself, in my opinion, because if you don't, someone else will beat you to it, and you'll have a pretty unhappy life

I think that everyone has experienced embarrassing episodes in their life and most of us, yes myself included, do indeed have a huge laugh at it all. In my case, I often bring it up first, because years down the track, it's the sort of things that can be extremely funny in the retell. However; being bullied is never funny, it's usually a pretty damn stressful period of one's life... and whilst I don't speak from personal experience, I do speak from someone who has seen it and faced it on behalf of someone very near and dear to them.

For anyone to experience bed-wetting for e.g. then I think we can safely say that the experience was not embarrassing but damned traumatic... as for the other matter, that too goes way beyond embarrassing... Rodney didn't have an embarrassing slip, tumble over his washing line and end up on his rear with his underpants perched on his head... that is embarrassing, that is something he could laugh at... being made to eat his lunch at school with his current underwear on his head goes beyond embarrassing, it's something which can affect a person's entire outlook, and personal opinion of themselves.


It was basically good natured teasing, in my eyes, and wasn't malicious or nasty, though a few people have obviously not seen it that way. Unless you've actually seen it on screen, I don't see how you can say how it was meant. How can a scene be unnacceptable to you if you haven't seen it and formed your own opinions on it first hand? You're relying on things others have seen and reported, from their own perspectives, and therefore can't state an objective opinion.

It can't be good natured teasing if the person being teased is upset by it. Good natured teasing is when everyone enjoys the joke. Rodney was uoset by the teasing, therefore, as I have already stated, seeing the scene is going to change nothing of that fact. Why is it so hard for you to understand that?


You're missing the fact, that as wonderful as McKay is, he is, at times, an arrogant jerk. He gets alot of what he deserves and dishes it back out pretty well. In fact the way he treats his staff and Zelenka at times has been pretty appalling, remember 'Fumbles McStupid'? That wasn't exactly nice, was it? Poor Zelenka. Rodney isn't some poor sensitive soul, he's a grown man who happens to be socially inept, outspoken and a genius. I like him how he is, and don't want him to change, but don't sugar coat him either.

This particular passage was both assumptive and patronising to myself. I never once stated that McKay was Mr Super nice guy, in fact I have acknowledged that he has a sharp tongue and can run off at the mouth with it... I am not blind to McKay's faults, in fact, I'm glad he's got some, I don't equate well with the Mary Sues or the Marty Stu's of t.v. land.

Like I said, I have no problem with anyone giving back as good as they get with McKay, that has never been a problem for me... my problem is... once again, as already stated... the fact is that he is never shown any respect at all, in spite of the many good qualities he has... no-one has ever openly acknowledged these... it's only his bad points that are noticed... and the general dissing of the character seems to be a part of it... payback for that biting tongue no doubt... but this latest 'payback' was way over the line.

As for you liking him just the way he is... so do I, I never said I wanted him to change... what I said, was that a little respect would not go astray... that's never been something that Rodney has received in spite of the fact that he has earned it. I understand the need to address the fact that his tongue can be a little too sharp at times, and no doubt they did this in the episode, this is not something I have a problem with, even though I personally enjoy his sharp wit, I understand it's not to everyone's tastes... but what did that scene in the cafeteria have to do with anything connected to this point, other than to prove that old adage about women scorned... Jeannie's actions in this regard were plain vindictive... she has a problem with her brother she should address it to him, she's also a grown woman, and we women can handle ourselves without falling over in a heap over a few sharp words.

I'm still waiting for someone to tell me that that scene had merit, that it was necessary to the plot...

bluealien
September 30th, 2006, 09:45 AM
[QUOTE]It can't be good natured teasing if the person being teased is upset by it. Good natured teasing is when everyone enjoys the joke. Rodney was uoset by the teasing, therefore, as I have already stated, seeing the scene is going to change nothing of that fact. Why is it so hard for you to understand that?

Well I dont think that Rodney was overly upset by it. He had the same reaction I had when I walked in on my mom telling my friends about my awful nick name I had as a child becasue my little sister couldn't prononce my name. I looked her with a - youre telling them about that awful nickname!! but I was by no means devastated and later on laughed with my friends.




Like I said, I have no problem with anyone giving back as good as they get with McKay, that has never been a problem for me... my problem is... once again, as already stated... the fact is that he is never shown any respect at all, in spite of the many good qualities he has... no-one has ever openly acknowledged these... it's only his bad points that are noticed... and the general dissing of the character seems to be a part of it... payback for that biting tongue no doubt... but this latest 'payback' was way over the line.

I didnt see it as payback at all and I have never gotten the impression that his team don't respect him. When has anyone ever thanked Sheppard for saving their buts on numerous occasions.



Jeannie's actions in this regard were plain vindictive... she has a problem with her brother she should address it to him, she's also a grown woman, and we women can handle ourselves without falling over in a heap over a few sharp words.

I saw nothing vindictive about Jeannies actions at all. Again you need to see this scene to appreciate this.


I'm still waiting for someone to tell me that that scene had merit, that it was necessary to the plot...

It showed another side to Rodney. It showed us that there is more to him than the snarky, abrasive man that we usually see. He is from a normal loving background which had sibling rivalry and funny moments from his past. It showed a sister who felt comfortable enough with this friends to tell them some of these funny stories - things that we would not normally associate with Rodney - but never once did anyone come across as vindictive. Rodney had hurt his sister but I saw no deliberate intention that she was trying to hurt him back. There is a wonderful scene between them where we see just how much they both love each other and how Rodney realised how much he had hurt her. We also see how much he means to his friends and how Sheppard went out of his way to show Jeannie the tape Rodney had made in Letters from Pegasus- where he had told Jeannie just how much she does mean to him. You will also see the last scene where Rodney joins his friends in the mess hall and he is beaming and asking about what is going on. This to me was a man surrounded by friends who not only care about him a great deal, but also respect him.

Linzi
September 30th, 2006, 09:55 AM
I think that everyone has experienced embarrassing episodes in their life and most of us, yes myself included, do indeed have a huge laugh at it all. In my case, I often bring it up first, because years down the track, it's the sort of things that can be extremely funny in the retell. However; being bullied is never funny, it's usually a pretty damn stressful period of one's life... and whilst I don't speak from personal experience, I do speak from someone who has seen it and faced it on behalf of someone very near and dear to them.

For anyone to experience bed-wetting for e.g. then I think we can safely say that the experience was not embarrassing but damned traumatic... as for the other matter, that too goes way beyond embarrassing... Rodney didn't have an embarrassing slip, tumble over his washing line and end up on his rear with his underpants perched on his head... that is embarrassing, that is something he could laugh at... being made to eat his lunch at school with his current underwear on his head goes beyond embarrassing, it's something which can affect a person's entire outlook, and personal opinion of themselves.



It can't be good natured teasing if the person being teased is upset by it. Good natured teasing is when everyone enjoys the joke. Rodney was uoset by the teasing, therefore, as I have already stated, seeing the scene is going to change nothing of that fact. Why is it so hard for you to understand that?



This particular passage was both assumptive and patronising to myself. I never once stated that McKay was Mr Super nice guy, in fact I have acknowledged that he has a sharp tongue and can run off at the mouth with it... I am not blind to McKay's faults, in fact, I'm glad he's got some, I don't equate well with the Mary Sues or the Marty Stu's of t.v. land.

Like I said, I have no problem with anyone giving back as good as they get with McKay, that has never been a problem for me... my problem is... once again, as already stated... the fact is that he is never shown any respect at all, in spite of the many good qualities he has... no-one has ever openly acknowledged these... it's only his bad points that are noticed... and the general dissing of the character seems to be a part of it... payback for that biting tongue no doubt... but this latest 'payback' was way over the line.

As for you liking him just the way he is... so do I, I never said I wanted him to change... what I said, was that a little respect would not go astray... that's never been something that Rodney has received in spite of the fact that he has earned it. I understand the need to address the fact that his tongue can be a little too sharp at times, and no doubt they did this in the episode, this is not something I have a problem with, even though I personally enjoy his sharp wit, I understand it's not to everyone's tastes... but what did that scene in the cafeteria have to do with anything connected to this point, other than to prove that old adage about women scorned... Jeannie's actions in this regard were plain vindictive... she has a problem with her brother she should address it to him, she's also a grown woman, and we women can handle ourselves without falling over in a heap over a few sharp words.

I'm still waiting for someone to tell me that that scene had merit, that it was necessary to the plot...
I think that Rodney is very well respected by his team. In fact I think they see him as pretty indespensible. However he is difficult to get along with, and can be very abrasive and rude sometimes.
I think the scene with Rodney and the team has merit because it's entertaining. Not every scene can be vital to the plot, and how many really are? I enjoyed it; to me it was simply amusing.
I didn't feel anything in my post was patronising, and it certainly wasn't my intention to be so. So if you felt that way, I apologise.

Danner
September 30th, 2006, 11:02 AM
Well I dont think that Rodney was overly upset by it. He had the same reaction I had when I walked in on my mom telling my friends about my awful nick name I had as a child becasue my little sister couldn't prononce my name. I looked her with a - youre telling them about that awful nickname!! but I was by no means devastated and later on laughed with my friends.

There is no comparison to having an embarrassing nickname and being put through the crap Rodney was put through... however; that aside, anyone who has experienced bullying of that calibre learns to live with it and the ridicule associated with it if they can't find a way to stop it... and usually such people tend to bottle up their feelings as a result... Rodney would not wear his heart on his sleeve over the matter, but I can guarantee that it would have cut deep that his sister not only shared something so personal to his teammates, but that their reaction was probably very reminiscent of the laughter he no doubt had to face on a regular basis when he was young.


I didnt see it as payback at all and I have never gotten the impression that his team don't respect him. When has anyone ever thanked Sheppard for saving their buts on numerous occasions.

Sigh... I didn't mean they all had to offer formal thanks, I meant in their attitude towards him. I don't think Ronon threatening to shove Rodney into that portal in "Epiphany" if he didn't get Sheppard back was any great show of respect for the character, in fact, it spoke volumes about how little regard he held McKay in, and Sheppard is thanked in many ways, the hug Elizabeth gave him in "The Seige" - as opposed to her blatantly ignoring McKay's offer to sit beside him in "Epiphany" when they both made it through the portal, instead opting to sit away from him... that spoke volumes to me. Sheppard is held in high regard by everyone, and he has had bonding moments with Teyla, Ronon and Weir... this is their thank-you.


I saw nothing vindictive about Jeannies actions at all. Again you need to see this scene to appreciate this.

So I should sit through a scene which would greatly upset me just so I can say, "yes I've seen the scene... now will you accept the validity of my complaint?" You see them as 'funny stories' and therefore you will never see anything wrong in what she did, however; from the standpoint of someone who doesn't see bullying as funny in any way, shape or form whatsoever, I can't possibly ever see this as Jeannie sharing some 'fun family memories' with Rodney's good buddies.


It showed another side to Rodney. It showed us that there is more to him than the snarky, abrasive man that we usually see.

Actually there has already been evidence that there is more to Rodney McKay than the "snarky, abrasive man that we usually see" - even Brendan Gaul noticed this in his dying moments way back in season one. However; responding to your observation...showing this side of Rodney McKay would have carried more impact if it had been handled with dignity rather than the sideshow they made of it... so, as far as I can see, it's still all about belittling the character and nothing to do with showing another side to Rodney McKay.


...Rodney had hurt his sister but I saw no deliberate intention that she was trying to hurt him back...

If you honestly can't see what she did as anything other than sharing a few happy families stories, then it's really pointless me addressing this point at all... Just what did Rodney do to his sister that you can all overlook what she has done to him and yet still hold him accountable for his own actions?


There is a wonderful scene between them where we see just how much they both love each other and how Rodney realised how much he had hurt her. We also see how much he means to his friends and how Sheppard went out of his way to show Jeannie the tape Rodney had made in Letters from Pegasus- where he had told Jeannie just how much she does mean to him. You will also see the last scene where Rodney joins his friends in the mess hall and he is beaming and asking about what is going on. This to me was a man surrounded by friends who not only care about him a great deal, but also respect him.

All this sounds wonderful, it really does, and I wish more than anything that I could sit back and enjoy it all... particularly the moments he has with his sister and Sheppard... but I can't, I'm not being difficult about this, I honestly can't enjoy this episode, and it's purely because of the fact that an issue as serious as bullying is, was treated as little more than a joking matter, with not a shred of concern for the dignity of the person involved.

Danner
September 30th, 2006, 11:35 AM
I think that Rodney is very well respected by his team. In fact I think they see him as pretty indespensible.

They definitely know his worth, but I have yet to see any evidence that they truly appreciate just what it is that he has done for them... and I know that they have all had their moments of saving the day or the moment just as Rodney has done, don't mistake me for thinking that he's the only one to have come through in this regard... but he is the only one that is never shown to have borne the respect of the others for it, and I've lost count of the many niggling moments when McKay is once again put down in some way, shape or form by the writers.

The bonding moment with Sheppard and also with the team in "McKay and Mrs Miller" sounds to me like we're finally getting to see some evidence of the closeness that this team would realistically share if this were a real life team... but the writers had to ruin it with that cafeteria scene, they had to make sure to get the boot in one more time before we got to the good stuff... and it's really starting to wear a bit thin.


However he is difficult to get along with, and can be very abrasive and rude sometimes.

I completely agree, he can indeed be very rude and abrasive and I don't expect someone like him to ever be surrounded by a large group of friends, but I do expect those who know him (his sister) (his teammates) (Radek) to know that his bark is a lot worse than his bite. He does have team spirit, he is a team player and when push comes to shove, he will do his utmost to help. He is rude certainly, but he is not a bad man, he is in fact a very good man underneath the snark, and when the moment calls for it, he is also a very brave man.


I think the scene with Rodney and the team has merit because it's entertaining. Not every scene can be vital to the plot, and how many really are? I enjoyed it; to me it was simply amusing.

No, I agree, not every scene has to have merit, although no scene should interfere with the story in general. What I was trying to get across was that the character of McKay is often mocked by the writers, to the point of it getting tedious, and what I wanted to know was, why they felt the need to put in yet another "Let's get another laugh at McKay's expense" moment in what could have been a brilliant episode... why spoil it just for the sake of garnering a few laughs from selected members of the audience... because I assure you, not everyone found it funny. In this regard, to those people (myself included) the scene would actually interfere with their overall enjoyment of the episode, whereas without the scene, I seriously doubt it would have obstructed any part of the story at all.


I didn't feel anything in my post was patronising, and it certainly wasn't my intention to be so. So if you felt that way, I apologise.

Fair enough and thank-you. :)

PG15
September 30th, 2006, 11:37 AM
Well, I love McKay, but the guy's an a-hole, plain and simple.

Believe me, I know. I identify with him A LOT.

Danner
September 30th, 2006, 12:10 PM
Well, I love McKay, but the guy's an a-hole, plain and simple.

Believe me, I know. I identify with him A LOT.


Out of curiosity, is that a, you identify with him alot in a, you're a brilliant astrophysicist who was bullied as a child, and is now working his butt off trying to save humanity and keep it free from being wraith-fodder, whilst putting your life on the line on a regular basis, kind of way or is it more that you're not that nice to be around and that's pretty much it, kind of way?

PG15
September 30th, 2006, 12:45 PM
More like "he says things that are on his mind and is not afraid to offend people". I like that quality.

Look, no matter how great, or how hardworking a man is, if he is hard to be around, you're not gonna be praising at his feet. In fact, how he and Team Atlantis were portrayed in this episode is almost exactly how I act around my friends.

EDIT: He was bullied as a child? Where was that mentioned?

Cory Holmes
September 30th, 2006, 06:02 PM
One thing that's been overlooked about this episode is that it showcases just how talented David Hewlett is with physical acting. We're constantly reminded that he can speak quickly and coherently, that he can ooze smarm and arrogance on a whim, and that he's capable looking condecending on the turn of a dime.

But go to the scene with his sister reading him the riot act and you'll get to see a completely different type of acting. For someone who normally looks smug and arrogant, to see him look so devastated and crushed is a complete shock. Mr. Hewlett is very capable of showing emotion on his face, not needing words or music to act. That takes real talent, I think.

Wilson3Girl
September 30th, 2006, 06:18 PM
One thing that's been overlooked about this episode is that it showcases just how talented David Hewlett is with physical acting. We're constantly reminded that he can speak quickly and coherently, that he can ooze smarm and arrogance on a whim, and that he's capable looking condecending on the turn of a dime.
But go to the scene with his sister reading him the riot act and you'll get to see a completely different type of acting. For someone who normally looks smug and arrogant, to see him look so devastated and crushed is a complete shock. Mr. Hewlett is very capable of showing emotion on his face, not needing words or music to act. That takes real talent, I think.


Great post! I totally agree!


Wilson3Girl

PG15
September 30th, 2006, 07:03 PM
One thing that's been overlooked about this episode is that it showcases just how talented David Hewlett is with physical acting. We're constantly reminded that he can speak quickly and coherently, that he can ooze smarm and arrogance on a whim, and that he's capable looking condecending on the turn of a dime.

But go to the scene with his sister reading him the riot act and you'll get to see a completely different type of acting. For someone who normally looks smug and arrogant, to see him look so devastated and crushed is a complete shock. Mr. Hewlett is very capable of showing emotion on his face, not needing words or music to act. That takes real talent, I think.

It's been overlooked because it was known since the beginning! The man's a genius.

Afterall, he IS among the holy Trinity of Stargate Cast and crew (along with Brad Wright and Martin Gero).

:D

Danner
September 30th, 2006, 08:26 PM
More like "he says things that are on his mind and is not afraid to offend people". I like that quality.

As do I. However; I wouldn't call him an "a-hole, plain and simple" for having this quality, that's a little one-dimensional wouldn't you say? He has the sometimes hard-to-take quality of being amazingly arrogant, and he's not afraid to state it like it is (and this can come across as offensive to some, refreshingly honest to others) and yes, sometimes, he's just plain rude... but he's also not afraid to hear the truth back, he can be humbled (Trinity) and he will never point the finger elsewhere when he is at fault, he is the first to accept blame for his own mistakes...sometimes the sole blame when others would do well to hang their heads a little as well.

I personally don't like a-holes, and if I thought that McKay was one, pure and simple... I wouldn't be interested in the character.


Look, no matter how great, or how hardworking a man is, if he is hard to be around, you're not gonna be praising at his feet. In fact, how he and Team Atlantis were portrayed in this episode is almost exactly how I act around my friends.

Can't fully respond to this as I have not seen the episode, just know the content... however; I never once stated that I thought they should build an altar to the man, all I've ever wanted is for those he's apparently close to, to show a modicum of concern and respect - but most of all, my biggest gripe, is I wish the damn writers would cut him some slack, stop ripping on the man, stop treating him as the resident buffoon and, as far as the writers are concerned, apparently McKay is incapable of having an original thought in his genius mind, I think there's been a couple of times when he's mentioned something and finally someone shows signs of being impressed (and who doesn't get a little thrill of pleasure when they've impressed) only to have him look sheepish and admit that it was Carter's idea... they can't even allow him these pathetic little moments... It's all these little niggling things that have been building up over the past two seasons, add all this to my total disgust over the cafeteria scene, couple it with the fact that everyone seems to find McKay's youthful distress a topic of amusement, is why I finally said something on the board.

I don't need people to worship him, in fact, I would rather they didn't. What I need is some balance for the character... and some might say that "McKay and Mrs Miller" redressed the balance, and maybe it would have, if not for that one, unnecessary and unpalatable (to some) scene.


EDIT: He was bullied as a child? Where was that mentioned?

McKay didn't just decide one day to eat his lunch with his underwear on his head... that whole thing and the bed-wetting... it's not just a 'phase' he went through, he was being unmercifully bullied at school and made to wear his underwear on his head... the bed-wetting would have been the result of the distress he was undergoing at the time...

... it's really not something to be amused about, and shame on the writers for making it a topic of amusement.

Willow'sCat
September 30th, 2006, 08:37 PM
You're missing the fact, that as wonderful as McKay is, he is, at times, an arrogant jerk. I think that is the point for a few McKay fans *myself included* I DO NOT see him as a jerk. :cool:

I just don't, so when we have eps like this, it is hard for McKay fans like myself to get beyond the hurtful treatment, which is only there because some people think he is a jerk and can therefore be treated like this. You are more then entitled to see him like that, but some of us McKay fans don't see him like that, and never will. :mckay:

Yes he has been out of line, some moments with Sam come to mind, but I still don't see jerk like you and others do.

McKay and Mrs Miller was one of the hardest episodes for me to watch, I love this episode but it was hard to stomach the treatment they gave him. I suspect that is what Martin was going, it does make the final moments with Jeannie all the more sweeter, but the cafetiere scenes I could have done without.... I simply skip them now when I watch the ep. :cool:

PG15
October 1st, 2006, 12:05 AM
As do I. However; I wouldn't call him an "a-hole, plain and simple" for having this quality, that's a little one-dimensional wouldn't you say? He has the sometimes hard-to-take quality of being amazingly arrogant, and he's not afraid to state it like it is (and this can come across as offensive to some, refreshingly honest to others) and yes, sometimes, he's just plain rude... but he's also not afraid to hear the truth back, he can be humbled (Trinity) and he will never point the finger elsewhere when he is at fault, he is the first to accept blame for his own mistakes...sometimes the sole blame when others would do well to hang their heads a little as well.

I personally don't like a-holes, and if I thought that McKay was one, pure and simple... I wouldn't be interested in the character.

I'm kinda succint. ;)

I agree with you on many points, but the truth is (at least for me), a person can be the most intellegent, the most self-deprecating guy, but if he says something rude to me, I'm gonna return the "complement".



Can't fully respond to this as I have not seen the episode, just know the content... however; I never once stated that I thought they should build an altar to the man, all I've ever wanted is for those he's apparently close to, to show a modicum of concern and respect - but most of all, my biggest gripe, is I wish the damn writers would cut him some slack, stop ripping on the man, stop treating him as the resident buffoon and, as far as the writers are concerned, apparently McKay is incapable of having an original thought in his genius mind, I think there's been a couple of times when he's mentioned something and finally someone shows signs of being impressed (and who doesn't get a little thrill of pleasure when they've impressed) only to have him look sheepish and admit that it was Carter's idea... they can't even allow him these pathetic little moments... It's all these little niggling things that have been building up over the past two seasons, add all this to my total disgust over the cafeteria scene, couple it with the fact that everyone seems to find McKay's youthful distress a topic of amusement, is why I finally said something on the board.

Good for you. I might disagree with you, but it's nice having a debate with someone that can organize his/her thoughts without swearing and such nonesense.

Anyway, the way I see it, McKay has earned a special form of respect: reliability. I mean, we're talking about a group of military people who relies on him, and trust him with their very life, DESPITE his, shall we say, unskill-fullness with many of the military aspects of the show (as he should be).

If you've watched "Return Part 1", you'll find

that at least Shep misses the man a lot. He, and I'm sure many others, realizes the true value of the friendship they have with Rodney. Not to mention that he himself dislikes sycophants around him. I get a feeling that he actually likes the occasional jab, just so he can hand out some well-worded replies, if you will.


McKay didn't just decide one day to eat his lunch with his underwear on his head... that whole thing and the bed-wetting... it's not just a 'phase' he went through, he was being unmercifully bullied at school and made to wear his underwear on his head... the bed-wetting would have been the result of the distress he was undergoing at the time...

Well...I wouldn't go that far, especially with the bedwetting thing. I think you're overanalysing it a little.

Rodney's past sounds just like any other sterotypical smart guy, and besides this one incident, it's not clear as to what happened, and I would rather not think that he had a very troubled past. It makes it harder to relate.


... it's really not something to be amused about, and shame on the writers for making it a topic of amusement.

I'm sure all of us had funny stories about our past that we were embaressed about. What's past is past. I mean, I don't really see the trouble here, TV does this sort of thing all the time, and it pretty much always end up as a thing to laugh about between friends.

Danner
October 2nd, 2006, 07:41 AM
I'm kinda succint. :wink:

a-hole is not really all that succinct… I would have to go with ‘blunt’ myself. :)


I agree with you on many points, but the truth is (at least for me), a person can be the most intellegent, the most self-deprecating guy, but if he says something rude to me, I'm gonna return the "complement"

Oh definitely! So would I. I have no problems with people standing up for themselves, go for it, I say... and this doesn't make you, me, or anyone else an a-hole any more than McKay's attitude makes him one... it's just a part of his overall personality, of which, whilst he has these not so nice qualities, he also has many fine qualities... which is why I was disagreeing with your original statement of him being an a-hole, ‘plain and simple.’


Anyway, the way I see it, McKay has earned a special form of respect: reliability. I mean, we're talking about a group of military people who relies on him, and trust him with their very life, DESPITE his, shall we say, unskill-fullness with many of the military aspects of the show (as he should be).

I think we definitely see things differently, I really don’t see their reliance on him in terms of having respect for him, they know he’s damn good at what he does and they rely on that but when he stuffed up in ‘Trinity’ it was fairly apparent that respect for the man was not high… Weir blasted him out loud enough for anyone nearby to hear, which is so wrong, he’s CSO, you don’t discipline anyone at that level in a way that displays the fact to any or all subordinates to witness. (I’m not even going to go into the fact that no matter how much it was dressed up to make them look innocent of all charges… Weir, Sheppard and Caldwell were also at fault for what happened in ‘Trinity’). As for the reliability factor, there has been moments when Sheppard has not seemed all that confident in Rodney’s abilities, and sometimes the odd scathing comment about his abilities has also passed his lips… there’s a certain level of contradiction about the way he blows hot and cold on this…
… There’s also the fact that he’s always written in a ludicrous manner when realistically he’s being the only sensible one around… “Runner” is a classic example of this.

Re: “The Return” Part one::
I’m afraid I don’t trust the writers enough to get too excited by this… I will wait and see what the future holds and I certainly won’t be holding my breath on anything, anymore. The character of Rodney McKay is not really held in high regard by the writers… it’s almost as if they woke up at the start of season two and realised that the character had developed beyond their own vision and frantically tried to put him back in their box. Such stagnant thinking brought us a horde of moments designed to diminish any growth observed in the previous season.

Character development is all part and parcel of a good show, with McKay we got the development, then some regression, then some amazingly sloppy contradictory character traits and it all seems to be going around in a vicious circle… it’s pretty sloppy writing by my book.


Well...I wouldn't go that far, especially with the bedwetting thing. I think you're overanalysing it a little.

No, I’m not. Bedwetting is a well documented symptom of trauma, particularly in the young.


Rodney's past sounds just like any other sterotypical smart guy, and besides this one incident, it's not clear as to what happened, and I would rather not think that he had a very troubled past. It makes it harder to relate.

For a start, was it made clear that it was only one incident? Usually things like this occur on a regular basis, if not the same thing, then many other moments of torment… bullies always come back for more, unless they are stopped.

I’m sorry if you can’t relate, I can and I have never been bullied either, although, I do know someone who was and I stepped in to put a stop to it… even so, stepping in and facing it is nothing like being the victim of bullying, and it’s something that is taken far too lightly by society in general. Like any crime which chips away at a person’s sense of self-worth, the emotional fall-out can be pretty devastating.


I'm sure all of us had funny stories about our past that we were embaressed about. What's past is past. I mean, I don't really see the trouble here, TV does this sort of thing all the time, and it pretty much always end up as a thing to laugh about between friends.

Television and television writers have a lot to answer for. What’s past is past? It is never that simple. Most people learn from their life, good things can grow from bad, and a person can discover hidden depths to themselves when faced with adversity, but deep cuts always leave scars. We can learn from our past, but it doesn’t always make the past any easier to bear, it’s all a matter of degrees and where our individual strengths and weaknesses lie.

Moments such as these are never something that gets shared over a beer to be laughed at amongst friends. I would wager good money that most wife-beaters were once bullies at school...

I can't help but wonder if the writers wrote the exact same scene for a Stargate SG1 episode and had Carter having gone through this exact same thing when she was at school, would everyone have found it funny?

Would Carter have walked in on Jack, Daniel and Teal'c laughing it up at her painful childhood memories? Personally, I think they'd be pretty p***ed off with her brother for sharing such deeply personal memories with them.

Linzi
October 2nd, 2006, 10:52 AM
I think that is the point for a few McKay fans *myself included* I DO NOT see him as a jerk. :cool:

I just don't, so when we have eps like this, it is hard for McKay fans like myself to get beyond the hurtful treatment, which is only there because some people think he is a jerk and can therefore be treated like this. You are more then entitled to see him like that, but some of us McKay fans don't see him like that, and never will. :mckay:

Yes he has been out of line, some moments with Sam come to mind, but I still don't see jerk like you and others do.

McKay and Mrs Miller was one of the hardest episodes for me to watch, I love this episode but it was hard to stomach the treatment they gave him. I suspect that is what Martin was going, it does make the final moments with Jeannie all the more sweeter, but the cafetiere scenes I could have done without.... I simply skip them now when I watch the ep. :cool:
Well, I said 'at times' he can be an arrogant jerk, so that doesn't mean I see him like that all the time, not by any means. Sometimes I see him as really sweet, and heroic and incredibly amusing. Other times I want to gag him!
I understand that you see him as something different from me, but to reverse the situation, I couldn't have cared less if the same thing had happened to my favourite character, in fact I'd have roared with laughter. Actually, I damn well wish they would do something like that to him! I'm just used to that sort of teasing behaviour, and I certainly don't see it as bullying, as a few have felt those scenes amounted to. I just had a chuckle because I genuinely thought it was light-hearted and amusing. I also think Rodney can take care of himself.He is a strong man, and not a wimp, and brushes things aside really easily, IMO. Yes, sometimes people tease us and there is an underlying element of - complaint about us, a dig, and they're laughing at our expense. But, for me, that just mirrors real life, and I like that realism. Though I do take the point that it could be dished around amongst the other characters a bit more, rather than having McKay as the butt of peoples jokes every now and then, let someone else have that honour.

Danner
October 2nd, 2006, 01:24 PM
...I'm just used to that sort of teasing behaviour, and I certainly don't see it as bullying, as a few have felt those scenes amounted to.

If the above refers to my own posts, then I feel I should point out (although if read properly, I shouldn't have to)that I never once stated that I thought the others were bullying Rodney in that scene. What I did think was that they were being extremely unkind and more than a little unfeeling in their great amusement over what he experienced at the hands of school bullies.


I just had a chuckle because I genuinely thought it was light-hearted and amusing. I also think Rodney can take care of himself.He is a strong man, and not a wimp, and brushes things aside really easily, IMO.

If you honestly think that someone being made to remove their underwear and wear it on their head during lunch period at school is something that can easily be joked about and that those who would do so are being light-hearted and amusing, then I would be curious to know what you would consider an act of bullying is, something that you think shouldn't be laughed at or joked about, lightheartedly or otherwise.

What on earth is wrong with people today? Just what does some poor sod have to go through before a sense of compassion kicks in?

And you're right, Rodney is a strong man, and can take care of himself, but that doesn't mean that he can't be emotionally hurt, or feel the pain of betrayal and humiliation... he's not a robot, he has feelings.

Linzi
October 2nd, 2006, 02:45 PM
If the above refers to my own posts, then I feel I should point out (although if read properly, I shouldn't have to)that I never once stated that I thought the others were bullying Rodney in that scene. What I did think was that they were being extremely unkind and more than a little unfeeling in their great amusement over what he experienced at the hands of school bullies.



If you honestly think that someone being made to remove their underwear and wear it on their head during lunch period at school is something that can easily be joked about and that those who would do so are being light-hearted and amusing, then I would be curious to know what you would consider an act of bullying is, something that you think shouldn't be laughed at or joked about, lightheartedly or otherwise.
What on earth is wrong with people today? Just what does some poor sod have to go through before a sense of compassion kicks in?

And you're right, Rodney is a strong man, and can take care of himself, but that doesn't mean that he can't be emotionally hurt, or feel the pain of betrayal and humiliation... he's not a robot, he has feelings.
Ok, I can see this discussion has upset you. So I think it's time to stop it. You haven't even seen the episode, so I don't think there's any point continuing this. Unless you've seen it played out on screen, with the nuances of the actors performances taken into account, I'm sorry, but I don't think you're qualified to judge it, or talk about characters being unkind - in my opinion. Bottom line for me - I view this as a fictional episode of a show that entertained me - period.


What on earth is wrong with people today? Just what does some poor sod have to go through before a sense of compassion kicks in?
.
As you put this in a reply to a post I made, I'm presuming this is aimed at me. So, in answer to your question, which is quite offensive, in my opinion, there is nothing wrong with me at all, other than the fact that I view a scene in an episode I have seen and you haven't in a different light to you.
Oh, and, no, I wasn't talking about your post when I answered Willow's, so I don't need to go and read it again as I didn't read it properly the first time.

EdenSG
October 2nd, 2006, 04:08 PM
It was asked if that cafeteria scene had merit – if it added anything to the story.
I am going to say yes, I think it did serve a purpose.

A scene just prior to the cafeteria was one in which both Rodney and Jeannie were getting ready to “start-up” their device. In that scene Rodney sort of takes over and he doesn’t allow his sister to push the button with him and begins answering questions in a way that shuts her out and he is somewhat condescending. This obviously provokes some very hurt feelings in Jeannie, and I got the impression these included feelings that Rodney never gave her the credit for what she accomplished in life, whether it was as physicist or a mother. Her comment to him was something like, “This is working together? Wouldn’t father have been so proud” (said sarcastically) and then she leaves. (Earlier in the episode Rodney had tried to convince her to join the Stargate program because this is what “father would have wanted” – them working side by side. Her response is something like, “Oh, you are sharing credit now?)

So was Jeannie telling secrets about Rodney’s past payback on Jeannie’s part? I think it was more than that – I think she really wanted to make Rodney feel pain and embarrassment, as she felt, not only in the control room but also thru out her life from him (earlier in the episode she had told him “you belittle all my choices”). Was it cruel on her part – yes to some degree and that type of teasing is almost always perceived as mean by the person receiving it. And yes I did cringe at the underpants on the head remark and thought, wow that was just mean for them to do that. However I think the scene did accomplish establishing the level of hurt, misunderstanding and distance between Rodney and his sister. I think it also set up the scene later in the episode where there is a reconciliation, or at least the beginning of one, between Rodney and his sister. I don’t think that scene would have been as meaningful if we had not seen how far apart these two were. You could really feel how difficult it was for each of them to reach out to the other – you would not have felt that in the same way if it wasn’t for the earlier cafeteria scene.

Now for the team’s teasing of Rodney, I don’t think they did it to intentionally hurt Rodney, they looked at it as good natured, buddy type teasing. Rodney has given the outward impression that he doesn’t really dare what others think. (But we know he does – and it is clearly evident in this scene – and I think it is one of the more powerful aspects of the scene because you can really feel his hurt, maybe because many of us have been in similar situations – by this reasoning I thought it was very well written and extremely well acted by DH). Often good buddies and family tease like this and it is okay because we know in the end they love us, we love them no matter what, - but it can be very hurtful and cruel, especially if the person doing the receiving is insecure about his position with the others. I do think the “teasing” cafeteria scene set up the final scene of the show when Teyla, Ronon and Sheppard are in the cafeteria and Rodney walks in. Rodney instantly feels left out and unwanted by the group. They reassure him by telling him they didn’t like Rod all that much – implying that they like Rodney more. (It is debated whether or not they were just making it up or if they really liked Rodney better than Rod. It is one’s POV. I think it was genuine) What ever your POV is, in the end what is important is that they recognized the feelings – to some degree- Rodney was experiencing. They realized they needed to reach out to Rodney, to let him know they did care and he is not just a member of the team but a member of their group. The team exchanged knowing looks while they were talking to Rodney – I think to show the viewer they had planned to do just this – to make up to Rodney for how left out and even hurt he was before.(I think the prior scenes that back up this premise are – when Rodney goes to Sheppard to talk with him and then when Sheppard shows the tape to Jeannie, why? I think because he started to realize how Rodney was really feeling and he wanted to help maybe even make it up to him.) Back to the cafeteria scene: Rodney sits down, joins the team/group and they all start immediately teasing and embarrassing Teyla, with a story of her lusting after a new marine. So in a sense, the scene came full circle.

This is just my take on the scene. Sorry, I guess I did ramble on a bit much.

Danner
October 2nd, 2006, 07:00 PM
Ok, I can see this discussion has upset you. So I think it's time to stop it. You haven't even seen the episode, so I don't think there's any point continuing this. Unless you've seen it played out on screen, with the nuances of the actors performances taken into account, I'm sorry, but I don't think you're qualified to judge it, or talk about characters being unkind - in my opinion. Bottom line for me - I view this as a fictional episode of a show that entertained me - period

It hasn't upset me, it's annoyed me.

You speak of nuance of the actors as being relevant to this situation and condemn me for forming an opinion based on what I have learned, this is utter rubbish. Nuance is indeed important when it comes to a great many moments, however; outright laughter and mockery is not one of them .. how can laughing at and making joking comments about a disturbing experience in someone's life be anything other than (at best) outright thoughtlessness... what?... did Shep perhaps throw a secret, we're not being as mean as it appears, wink in Rodney's direction whilst laughing it up, or perhaps Ronon and Teyla managed to sneak in a look of deep affection when they commented on the underwear on his head and broke up into helpless laughter... I'm sorry but there was nothing subtle about what they did and I don't need to see it to know that, no matter what, they had no call in finding amusement over what they learned.

Bottom line for me... even if I had seen this episode and written the self same things, nothing I have said would have made a difference to people who are not prepared to listen to other people's POV's that differ from their own. Whether you think I'm qualified or not, I am entitled to an opinion, yes even one based on 'eyewitness' accounts, and I have 'listened' to both sides of the account. However; as a dedicated viewer of this show, dedicated enough to read all the transcripts available for season three because we haven't had it shown over here yet... I do know the characters well enough and have seen their interactions with Rodney often enough, and have a damn good understanding on the way the writers minds work, particularly where McKay is concerned, to be able to picture this scene pretty accurately when substantiated by the numerous observations of both, people who loved it, and hated it.


As you put this in a reply to a post I made, I'm presuming this is aimed at me. So, in answer to your question, which is quite offensive, in my opinion, there is nothing wrong with me at all, other than the fact that I view a scene in an episode I have seen and you haven't in a different light to you.

My comment, which was unfortunately an emotive one, something I usually try to avoid, was actually based on the fact that I outlined my reasons quite clearly as to why the scene was offensive to me and yet people still kept popping up and saying that they found the scene amusing and light-hearted, even though I pointed out why such things weren't amusing and light-hearted. I couldn't fathom why what I said didn't even give you pause for thought... the intention was not to sway you over to my thinking, but to offer another viewpoint... something, I often look for myself, so that I can better understand things.

Still, sometimes it just comes down to that old adage... "there are none so blind as those who will not see" and I guess I really am wasting my time attempting to enter into a discussion with you, and any like-minded, over this matter... particularly if my posts aren't even being read... which, by the way, are you reading this one at least?


Oh, and, no, I wasn't talking about your post when I answered Willow's, so I don't need to go and read it again as I didn't read it properly the first time.

An understandable mistake on my part, considering you had been responding to my earlier posts and I had made comments on bullying in my posts... still, you say not, so... so be it. However; this being the case and particularly the fact that you haven't read my posts, how can you possibly state what I am or am not qualified to judge if you can't even be bothered to 'hear' me out?

Danner
October 2nd, 2006, 08:34 PM
In response to EdenSG

First off, thank-you for responding to my question, and further for outlining that scene between Rodney and Jeannie, which you believed prompted her telling the others about Rodney's past. It was a very telling scene.

This Jeannie is someone I can relate to, not the one who told the others about Rodney's painful past, and I still hold that that was way out of line, no matter what her hurt, and trust me on this, I am qualified to make this judgement call. After reading what you wrote, I have a much better understanding of what prompted her... I just wish that she had taken the time to find a different route... what Rodney went through is no laughing matter and the kind of hurt involved would be way beyond anything Jeannie had experienced... again, you're going to have to trust me on this as I have no wish to air my personal life to the general public, but I do understand her hurt and it's a deep hurt, but not on the same level as what Rodney would have experienced.

However; having said this, I do now understand that Rodney was in desperate need of a wake-up call.

Re: this:

However I think the scene did accomplish establishing the level of hurt, misunderstanding and distance between Rodney and his sister. I think it also set up the scene later in the episode where there is a reconciliation, or at least the beginning of one, between Rodney and his sister. I don’t think that scene would have been as meaningful if we had not seen how far apart these two were. You could really feel how difficult it was for each of them to reach out to the other – you would not have felt that in the same way if it wasn’t for the earlier cafeteria scene.

I can imagine how poignant the reconciliation scene between these two must have been, damn, sounds like something that would bring tears to my eyes, something I'm nearly experiencing just by reading this. Having read what you wrote, it's very possible that something along the lines of that scene was necessary after all and I may have to re-assess my opinion on the writing of this moment, at least where Jeannie is concerned and why it was a necessary evil.

However the one area that I can't reconcile with is the team laughing at him, they are supposedly his friends, the same people he risks his life with on a regular basis... I think the writing let us down here and the moment could have still have had the same impact if it had been others laughing at him instead, perhaps someone overhearing Jeannie telling the team those stories and running with it... but the idea that Rodney's team found amusement in them is something that will always grate with me.

I know you believe they were treating it in a good natured buddy teasing manner and I understand why you would want to think that, I would like to think that too, I like Sheppard, a great deal, and in the main, I like Teyla and Ronon as well (although, I do miss Ford), but the fact is that no-one of decent conscience should ever find such things amusing, they would have to at least appreciate how devastating something like that had to be... I mean, imagine being forced to remove your underwear and wear them on your head? That's beyond mortifying, that's deadly abuse, and I am disappointed that they were the ones being used in this scene... I don't think it did any service to them at all.

I think in the instance of the others thinking that Rodney wouldn't care about what they thought, this is something that I think they really must be aware of, Rodney made it pretty clear to Sheppard at the end of "Trinity" that his personal opinion of him does matter.

Re: the later scenes with the team and Sheppard, they sound like a lot of personal interpretation is involved, and so I can't really judge, I am glad that Sheppard tried to help with Jeannie and Rodney, and it sounds like the team tried to make amends, which is nice... but, I do wish that after what he was made to go through at their hands, the scenes could have been more concrete in what they were trying to say and do... I think it would have gone a long way into alleviating the pain for those viewers who found the cafeteria scenes hard to take.

I do thank you for your time and thoughtful comments on the scenes involved and it has helped me see some things in a new light... I think I understand what Gero was trying to do now, and I even understand Jeannie's actions, even though I don't approve of them. I will always have trouble with the team laughing thing, and honestly believe that Gero could have handled this and the 'making up with the team' scene a lot better, but yeah, not as bad in some areas as I originally supposed.

Appreciate your insight on this episode. :)

PG15
October 2nd, 2006, 10:37 PM
Look Danner, I'm gonna end the debate here and now (no offense meant). I just don't feel right arguing with somebody who hasn't even seen the source material. I just can't, and the fact that you're still doing it doesn't make any sense to me, and remind me of other fans (not even close to what you're like, I assure you), who used to condemned perfectly fine movies before even knowing anything about them.

But just to add, I was bullied when I was a kid. I was beaten up a few times, embaressed MANY times, and even were the ends of some rather racist jokes. However, now that I've grown up, I've realized that that was just some childish pidly crap that I should just laugh at and forget about...or, failing that, trash-talk about the bullies with my friends.

So I know what it's like, at least partially. And I really don't think anybody who's as, shall we say, "outspoken" as Rodney, is deeply, deeply hurt about some of these childish pranks. Now, if he was quiet and an introvert, then I would think the bullies actually hurt him deep...but he isn't like that, at all.

On a completely different note, I've just rewatched the hug scene at the end. It's been, what, a month? And guess what, it still brings a tear to the eyes.

Powerful, powerful stuff.

Linzi
October 2nd, 2006, 11:28 PM
It hasn't upset me, it's annoyed me.

You speak of nuance of the actors as being relevant to this situation and condemn me for forming an opinion based on what I have learned, this is utter rubbish. Nuance is indeed important when it comes to a great many moments, however; outright laughter and mockery is not one of them .. how can laughing at and making joking comments about a disturbing experience in someone's life be anything other than (at best) outright thoughtlessness... what?... did Shep perhaps throw a secret, we're not being as mean as it appears, wink in Rodney's direction whilst laughing it up, or perhaps Ronon and Teyla managed to sneak in a look of deep affection when they commented on the underwear on his head and broke up into helpless laughter... I'm sorry but there was nothing subtle about what they did and I don't need to see it to know that, no matter what, they had no call in finding amusement over what they learned.

Bottom line for me... even if I had seen this episode and written the self same things, nothing I have said would have made a difference to people who are not prepared to listen to other people's POV's that differ from their own. Whether you think I'm qualified or not, I am entitled to an opinion, yes even one based on 'eyewitness' accounts, and I have 'listened' to both sides of the account. However; as a dedicated viewer of this show, dedicated enough to read all the transcripts available for season three because we haven't had it shown over here yet... I do know the characters well enough and have seen their interactions with Rodney often enough, and have a damn good understanding on the way the writers minds work, particularly where McKay is concerned, to be able to picture this scene pretty accurately when substantiated by the numerous observations of both, people who loved it, and hated it.



My comment, which was unfortunately an emotive one, something I usually try to avoid, was actually based on the fact that I outlined my reasons quite clearly as to why the scene was offensive to me and yet people still kept popping up and saying that they found the scene amusing and light-hearted, even though I pointed out why such things weren't amusing and light-hearted. I couldn't fathom why what I said didn't even give you pause for thought... the intention was not to sway you over to my thinking, but to offer another viewpoint... something, I often look for myself, so that I can better understand things.

Still, sometimes it just comes down to that old adage... "there are none so blind as those who will not see" and I guess I really am wasting my time attempting to enter into a discussion with you, and any like-minded, over this matter... particularly if my posts aren't even being read... which, by the way, are you reading this one at least?



An understandable mistake on my part, considering you had been responding to my earlier posts and I had made comments on bullying in my posts... still, you say not, so... so be it. However; this being the case and particularly the fact that you haven't read my posts, how can you possibly state what I am or am not qualified to judge if you can't even be bothered to 'hear' me out?
You know what? I agree, there is none so blind as those who will not see, and I agree with PG15, you haven't seen the scene, so what's the point in carrying on this discussion? Nobody is trying to change your opinion, God forbid, but please don't tell me I'm talking 'rubbish' because I think to judge a scene or an episode you need to have actually watched it first. I'm entitled to answer anyone's posts with my take on a scene, or my opinion on what someone has said, just as you are, that doesn't mean I'm trying to change their opinion or criticise, I'm just putting across my viewpoint, my take on that scene. Isn't that the whole point of discussion? To look at and debate opposing views?
Saying you're being emotive is NOT an excuse for being rude or disrespectful, and you are being both here
And, finally, to quote you, you're obviously not reading my posts, as I said I hadn't misread your posts at all. I didn't say I hadn't read them, I have read everybody's posts here.
Anyway, end of debate. I don't want to discuss this topic any longer with someone who can't be calm and rational when they post, resorting to insults to defend their point of view. Perhaps if you actually watch the episode we can discuss the merits of certain scenes in it then?

Danner
October 2nd, 2006, 11:45 PM
Look Danner, I'm gonna end the debate here and now (no offense meant). I just don't feel right arguing with somebody who hasn't even seen the source material. I just can't,..

Fair enough, if you honestly don't feel comfortable discussing this with me because I have not seen the episode then that is your prerogative. No offense taken.


...and the fact that you're still doing it doesn't make any sense to me, and remind me of other fans (not even close to what you're like, I assure you), who used to condemned perfectly fine movies before even knowing anything about them.

I'm simply defending my point and right to an opinion... I'm not sure what you meant by what you wrote in parenthesis, but the fact that I haven't seen something doesn't mean I am incapable of understanding the content and it baffles me that people feel that anyone is beyond comprehending anything they have not personally witnessed... how else does our justice system work? The judge and jury are not personal witnesses... does this mean that anything they ascertain based on eyewitness accounts is not something they are qualified to judge?

I am not condemning the entire episode, I am condemning a scene within the episode based on what I have learnt about that scene. Do we all have to personally witness acts of wrongdoing to understand that they are wrong? Sigh... it doesn't matter, you and Linzi have made your point clear on the matter and so I will bow out of this discussion.

Re: what you wrote about being bullied... if you went through all this, then I don't understand why you felt that you couldn't relate to McKay on his situation... however; I am very sorry that you went through this.

I won't comment on your point re: McKay as I have a completely different opinion on the matter but that's taking us back to the fact that no-one is interested in my POV on this matter, so I won't bother.

On a completely different note, I've just rewatched the hug scene at the end. It's been, what, a month? And guess what, it still brings a tear to the eyes.

Powerful, powerful stuff.

*Smiles* That's nice to hear... it doesn't change the cafeteria scene for me, but it's nice to know that they had this moment... I would love to see more of this in the future. :)

Danner
October 3rd, 2006, 12:14 AM
You know what? I agree, there is none so blind as those who will not see, and I agree with PG15, you haven't seen the scene, so what's the point in carrying on this discussion? Nobody is trying to change your opinion, God forbid, but please don't tell me I'm talking 'rubbish' because I think to judge a scene or an episode you need to have actually watched it first. I'm entitled to answer anyone's posts with my take on a scene, or my opinion on what someone has said, just as you are, that doesn't mean I'm trying to change their opinion or criticise, I'm just putting across my viewpoint, my take on that scene. Isn't that the whole point of discussion? To look at and debate opposing views?

I never once said that I thought that you were trying to change my opinion, where on earth do you get this stuff? And I only wish you did give me your take on that scene as EdenSG did, but you didn't, you simply told me that I had no right to an opinion and then told me that you thought the scene was light-hearted and amusing, but never once contributed to a discussion on the matter... and please don't try to use my own statement against me, as you have never once tried to see my POV on this matter... and you actually admitted to not even having read my posts properly.


Saying you're being emotive is NOT an excuse for being rude or disrespectful, and you are being both here

I was not being rude and disrespectful, and these words are ironic coming from someone who feels that people laughing at someone's past misery is just them being light-hearted and playful... I find it hard to imagine that you are all that offended simply because I honestly couldn't understand what was wrong with someone who I had assumed had been reading my posts completely enough to grasp what I was clearly outlining as to the cause of my distress over that scene, and yet still kept coming back with the fact that they thought the scene was funny and light-hearted, completely ignoring my own concerns over the matter... if anyone had cause to be offended it was me.

but you're right, this is pointless and I can't be bothered anymore either...

Alipeeps
October 3rd, 2006, 06:34 AM
Firstly, let me just clarify one point before you go on attacking Linzi over thing she didn't actually say, Danner.


Oh, and, no, I wasn't talking about your post when I answered Willow's, so I don't need to go and read it again as I didn't read it properly the first time.

I can only assume that you have misread Linzi's statement above. Perhaps the meaning would be more clear if we add quotation marks:


Oh, and, no, I wasn't talking about your post when I answered Willow's, so I don't need to "go and read it again as I didn't read it properly the first time".

Linzi was not saying that she didn't read your post the first time around - she was responding to your suggestion that she "go and read it again as she didn't read it properly the first time". I can understand how perhaps you misread her statement though the meaning was clear enough to me...

Other than that.. it's clear you find this subject very emotive and are incapable of having a reasonable discussion about it. Yes, the posts are eloquent and well-expressed but you can't seem to discuss the issue without getting very het up about it and attacking other posters who express differing opinions. You are the only one I see here who is refusing to see anyone else's point of view.

I'm sorry but I also have to agree that - whatever clever metaphors about court cases you might wish to throw out - you cannot possibly engage in a reasonable critique of something that you have never seen. Your metaphor is flawed - in a court case none of the jurors have witnessed the crime and all are reliant on the evidence presented to them. By contrast, you are discussing a piece of evidence you have never seen with other people who have seen it - to carry your metaphor through, this would be tantamount to having a juror who had not seen the crime and knew only what the lawyers (who are each interpreting the available facts to support their particular point of view in favour of their client) had told them, discussing the case, and judging it, with the rest of the jurors who had been physically present at the scene of the crime and seen it being committed.

But hey, this post is supposed to be about the episode, not the other posters so on to topic. My take on the cafeteria scene is this:

Siblings tease each other and can be cruel. This is a fact of life. It's often not even intentional and they often don't even realise how hurtful something they have said/done is. That's families for you. How many of us have not had a sibling - or even a parent - tell embarassing childhood stories to a friend or partner that we have brought home?

I can see that the issue of bullying is obviously a personal and emotive one for you and this is clearly colouring your perceptions of this scene. But you are also assuming a great deal here - you assume that Rodney was severely bullied over a long period of time and is traumatised by it. You assume that his bedwetting was related to the bullying. You don't actually know any of this, none of us do. Every child had a bedwetting experience or two (it's a fact of life with toilet training) adn there's no indication that whatever Jeannie told his team about bedwetting was at any given age or in any way related to bullying. There's also no evidence that he was systematically bullied.

Yes, I fully agree that being forced to eat lunch with your underwear on your head is awful, horrible, humiliating and not at all funny. But... again we don't know all the facts. Not that anything would in any way justify or mitigate someone doing that to Rodney, I can see how he could very easily have provoked someone into doing something to humiliate him. We have a lot of indications that Rodney was just as brilliant and arrogant as a child (building a nuclear weapon for a school science fair anyone?) and, given what we know of his character, I can easily see him being arrogant and condescending to some "unintelligent" school bully and having it backfire on him spectacularly. Again, we simply have no way to know.

You asked repeatedly what Rodney had ever done to Jeannie to warrant her being upset at him - so obviously your reading of the transcripts has not given you a thorough enough understanding of the episode if you missed this major plot point. He shut her out of his life. For four years. She made a life choice that he disagreed with and, as Jeannie herself said, that meant she "wasn't worth talking to". Just because she chose her family first, he cut her off, he doesn't even know her husband's name and he had NEVER even seen his four year old niece. That is harsh. Oh and I know you say that he made the effort to get in touch first... well, it's not quite that simple. He was the one to cut off contact in the first place, she couldn't get in touch with him as she had no idea where he was.. and, more importantly, he STILL would not be in contact with her now if Carter had not forced him into it because they wanted Jeannie's help and her research. To compound matters, once they were back in touch and working together, (after him promising to share credit, whilst trying to convince her to come to Atlantis) he then very rudely shut her out of the project (based on her work) at the critical moment, publicly, in front of his co-workers. Yeah, she has reason to be upset with him...

In many ways, teams of close friends are like siblings... they tease each other, sometimes without realising that their remarks are more hurtful than they think. Yes, Rodney was hurt that his sister told his team those things and that his team laughed about it... but I honestly don't think they meant it in any way mailiciously and when they did realise that Rodney was feeling hurt and left out, they made a conscious, determined effort to let him know that they care about him.

I don't doubt that my post will do nothing to persuade you to either accept that other people's opinions are valid or to watch the episode so that you actually have some basis for your interpretation so I will close by saying this: I can understand your point of view on this and I very much understand that bullying is a serious issue and should not be trivialised and that it is a shame that the issue in this episode is open to be interpreted in such a way. Perhaps the writers should have found a better way to express what they wanted to convey in this scene. But, ultimately, I don't agree with your interpretation, I see the scene differently (as I have hopefully explained above).

Linzi
October 3rd, 2006, 08:50 AM
Firstly, let me just clarify one point before you go on attacking Linzi over thing she didn't actually say, Danner.



I can only assume that you have misread Linzi's statement above. Perhaps the meaning would be more clear if we add quotation marks:



Linzi was not saying that she didn't read your post the first time around - she was responding to your suggestion that she "go and read it again as she didn't read it properly the first time". I can understand how perhaps you misread her statement though the meaning was clear enough to me...

Other than that.. it's clear you find this subject very emotive and are incapable of having a reasonable discussion about it. Yes, the posts are eloquent and well-expressed but you can't seem to discuss the issue without getting very het up about it and attacking other posters who express differing opinions. You are the only one I see here who is refusing to see anyone else's point of view.

I'm sorry but I also have to agree that - whatever clever metaphors about court cases you might wish to throw out - you cannot possibly engage in a reasonable critique of something that you have never seen. Your metaphor is flawed - in a court case none of the jurors have witnessed the crime and all are reliant on the evidence presented to them. By contrast, you are discussing a piece of evidence you have never seen with other people who have seen it - to carry your metaphor through, this would be tantamount to having a juror who had not seen the crime and knew only what the lawyers (who are each interpreting the available facts to support their particular point of view in favour of their client) had told them, discussing the case, and judging it, with the rest of the jurors who had been physically present at the scene of the crime and seen it being committed.

But hey, this post is supposed to be about the episode, not the other posters so on to topic. My take on the cafeteria scene is this:

Siblings tease each other and can be cruel. This is a fact of life. It's often not even intentional and they often don't even realise how hurtful something they have said/done is. That's families for you. How many of us have not had a sibling - or even a parent - tell embarassing childhood stories to a friend or partner that we have brought home?

I can see that the issue of bullying is obviously a personal and emotive one for you and this is clearly colouring your perceptions of this scene. But you are also assuming a great deal here - you assume that Rodney was severely bullied over a long period of time and is traumatised by it. You assume that his bedwetting was related to the bullying. You don't actually know any of this, none of us do. Every child had a bedwetting experience or two (it's a fact of life with toilet training) adn there's no indication that whatever Jeannie told his team about bedwetting was at any given age or in any way related to bullying. There's also no evidence that he was systematically bullied.

Yes, I fully agree that being forced to eat lunch with your underwear on your head is awful, horrible, humiliating and not at all funny. But... again we don't know all the facts. Not that anything would in any way justify or mitigate someone doing that to Rodney, I can see how he could very easily have provoked someone into doing something to humiliate him. We have a lot of indications that Rodney was just as brilliant and arrogant as a child (building a nuclear weapon for a school science fair anyone?) and, given what we know of his character, I can easily see him being arrogant and condescending to some "unintelligent" school bully and having it backfire on him spectacularly. Again, we simply have no way to know.

You asked repeatedly what Rodney had ever done to Jeannie to warrant her being upset at him - so obviously your reading of the transcripts has not given you a thorough enough understanding of the episode if you missed this major plot point. He shut her out of his life. For four years. She made a life choice that he disagreed with and, as Jeannie herself said, that meant she "wasn't worth talking to". Just because she chose her family first, he cut her off, he doesn't even know her husband's name and he had NEVER even seen his four year old niece. That is harsh. Oh and I know you say that he made the effort to get in touch first... well, it's not quite that simple. He was the one to cut off contact in the first place, she couldn't get in touch with him as she had no idea where he was.. and, more importantly, he STILL would not be in contact with her now if Carter had not forced him into it because they wanted Jeannie's help and her research. To compound matters, once they were back in touch and working together, (after him promising to share credit, whilst trying to convince her to come to Atlantis) he then very rudely shut her out of the project (based on her work) at the critical moment, publicly, in front of his co-workers. Yeah, she has reason to be upset with him...

In many ways, teams of close friends are like siblings... they tease each other, sometimes without realising that their remarks are more hurtful than they think. Yes, Rodney was hurt that his sister told his team those things and that his team laughed about it... but I honestly don't think they meant it in any way mailiciously and when they did realise that Rodney was feeling hurt and left out, they made a conscious, determined effort to let him know that they care about him.

I don't doubt that my post will do nothing to persuade you to either accept that other people's opinions are valid or to watch the episode so that you actually have some basis for your interpretation so I will close by saying this: I can understand your point of view on this and I very much understand that bullying is a serious issue and should not be trivialised and that it is a shame that the issue in this episode is open to be interpreted in such a way. Perhaps the writers should have found a better way to express what they wanted to convey in this scene. But, ultimately, I don't agree with your interpretation, I see the scene differently (as I have hopefully explained above).
Ok, so you explained everything much better than me and more eloquently than I ever could. Wish I had your gift of expression! :)

Danner
October 3rd, 2006, 09:35 AM
In response to Alipeeps

Before I respond to the rest of your post I would like to make a comment in regards to your comment about me making an attack on Linzi. I was not attacking anyone. I was responding to statements made. You made an observation that I was not open to anyone else's POV, and this is so far from the truth it's almost funny. I am an extremely open-minded person, however; if I have a very strong feeling about something, then it's very likely that I will stick strongly to my point... and in spite of what you may think, no-one has responded to my concerns, whatsoever. There were a few posts made which people commented on many things, spoke about other scenes in the episode, spoke about scenes between McKay and his sister, spoke about McKay's personality traits, and made many observations about my lack of right to an opinion on the scene which had upset me enough to make me come in here and make my initial post... yet, never once did anyone actually address any of the issues to which I was referring within the scene itself... and instead just made comments on how they thought it was funny, hilarious, and suchlike.

To me, this came across as no-one even caring about my genuine reasons for why I found the idea of this scene repugnant... I was told, after a fashion, to lighten up and opinions were made suggesting how I was overreacting to what I knew of the scene because Rodney doesn't care what anyone thinks of him and his team were just having fun with him... and no-one would be moved from this opinion, in fact, it became very obvious to me that no matter how clearly I stated my case, no-one even gave pause for thought to anything I said.

Answering my posts and dancing around my point is not seeing my POV at all... so, if it appears that I am not willing to see other POV's on this, much of it has come about because no-one cared to offer one until EdenSG, and whilst she beautifully addressed my point re: Jeannie and made me see things differently in this matter, as well as in the case of Gero's possible intentions, I still found it difficult to appreciate the cafeteria from her perspective in spite of the fact that she presented her insights on the scene extremely well, because I found flaws in her reasoning and not because I refuse to be moved from my standpoint... you actually have no idea how much I would love to be moved from my standpoint... the idea of Rodney having to face this is very upsetting to me, so I would love to be able to change my opinion on this... and seeing other people's POV does go both ways...As far as I recall, not one person who responded to me understood my viewpoint, let alone attempted to see it, so your comment about me being the only one not willing to see others POV's was a little out of line.


BTW, when I said that I found flaws in EdenSG's reasoning, I meant from my standpoint and in relation to the fact that Sheppard did know that Rodney valued his good opinion of him. There was no intent to offend with this comment.


You made a comment about me using 'clever metaphors' - I wasn't... I don't deal in metaphors, they give me a headache. I was making an analogy and it was pretty much the first thing which popped into my head... I was thinking more in terms of eyewitness accounts of which can, and do, carry weight with both the jurors and the judge. - However I will say that I am impressed with your argument, so having little love for metaphors, I will withdraw that particular statement, but still stand by my view that a person need not witness a crime to know that it is a crime, they do not need to witness a wrong-doing to know that it is a wrong-doing.


Re: what Rodney did to his sister... unfortunately, I have not been able to come across any transcripts and I have desperately looked, because I really prefer to be armed with more information before making any comments, but considering the fact that this topic would have been well and truly over before we even come close to getting that episode aired over here, then I had no choice but to come into this discussion armed with only the knowledge of that scene and a basic background on everything else... which is why I have not commented on the rest of the episode, only the scene for which I had a fair bit of information at hand... unfortunately, no-one was really interested in discussing the scene with me, just told me to watch it before commenting on it, which, I think we're going to have to agree to disagree on as you seem to agree with this assessment and which I personally think is pretty cloistered thinking.

I appreciated reading your comments on Rodney's treatment of his sister, it once again gave me further insight into their troubled relationship, and I have to admit that his treatment of her was pretty shabby and whilst I personally would never do what she did, it is possible that the reason I have such trouble coming to terms with it, is because I am emotionally involved in the subject matter, so I will say no more on the subject re: Jeannie... except to say that I am at least pleased that her actions were not the result of anything petty and she did at least have some strong reasons for wanting her brother to hurt.

I've been reading all your comments after your statement about me having made some assumptions regarding Rodney's bullying at school and bedwetting and I have to say that whilst you are right about the fact that nothing is detailed, I personally think it is a safe assumption to make, no matter how neatly you outlined an alternative possibility. Bullying is almost never a one-time thing, once they have a target, it is usually fairly on-going, and bedwetting is a symptom of trauma as I have stated before, and I hardly think Jeannie would mention it if it had been the standard childhood accident of which no doubt she herself fell victim to at one time. So as much as you made good points, in this, I cannot agree with you.

Re: this:

I don't doubt that my post will do nothing to persuade you to either accept that other people's opinions are valid or to watch the episode so that you actually have some basis for your interpretation so I will close by saying this:

I have to say that, whether this was innocent on your part or not, this was an excellent trap, there's no way I can come out of this without looking every bit the person you so happily assume is incapable of seeing the validity of other people's viewpoints, unless I do a complete 180 and completely agree with everything you said in your post. .. and the thing is you are wrong, I have taken something from this post, and I find myself even more in sympathy with Jeannie than I was after reading EdenSG's post, which had nudged me along in this matter as well... but as for the teasing, I honestly can't see me ever changing my opinion on that... I don't for one minute think they were being malicious... I don't even think that I've implied this, but I do think they were being mean and uncaring of Rodney's sensibilities, regardless of how they may have seen this later and tried to make amends, this fact doesn't alter the other.

I will say this, I have decided to watch this scene, as much as it is going to pain me to do so, I will watch it and if by any chance I find that you people were right and I was wrong, I will come back to this place and make a post declaring that fact, and that is the truth plain and simple... but somehow, I don't think I will have to do this, because I strongly believe that in the instance of this scene, viewing is not necessary for understanding... it sounds pretty cut and dried and not really open to nuance.

Alipeeps
October 3rd, 2006, 10:25 AM
Not going to quote your entire post Danner or this post will be even longer than it is! ;)

If you never meant to attack anyone then I apologise for suggesting as such – however, as you yourself have commented, you obviously find this subject very emotive and you seem to be taking all of this discussion very personally and getting quite upset/angry about it. You must be able to see that your tone in many of your replies to Linzi was quite aggressive in nature and using phrasing such as “where on earth do you get this stuff?” etc only reinforced that impression – and it was to this that I was responding.

I still feel that you are not open to other’s POVs in that you refuse to even admit that anyone else’s interpretation of the cafeteria scene could be in any way valid. The opinion that you have expressed has been that the scene is mean and unnecessary and that there is no possible justification for McKay’s team treating him the way they did. Whilst I don’t agree with your interpretation of the scene, I can – and have – at least acknowledge that I can see why you may feel that way about it and that it is a shame that the events are open to being interpreted negatively in this way. You don’t seem to be able to do the same courtesy to other posters’ opinions.

It just seems to me that your personal feelings on the issue of bullying etc are colouring your perceptions not only of the scene but also of people’s responses etc in this thread. I certainly haven’t seen any evidence of people telling you that you don’t have a right to an opinion on the scene – people have questioned the validity/relevance of your opinion, given that you haven’t actually seen the scene in question and I feel they are perfectly right to do so and I can’t quite see why you are getting so worked up over that. People have read your posts, have understood them and have responded to them and agreed or disagreed with them. That is their prerogative and just because maybe their responses are not as in-depth or desperately serious as you might wish does not mean they don’t care about your reasons for being against this scene – they simply don’t agree with your reasons.

I admit I hadn’t realised that you knew nothing about the rest of the episode, you had mentioned transcripts etc and I thought you had read a transcript of the entire episode. To be honest, that makes it even harder for me to accept your interpretation of the scene, given that you are essentially taking it completely out of context. I’m glad anyway that my explanation of the situation between Rodney and Jeannie gave you some more insight into events and into Jeannie’s character.. although, as I said, I still don’t think Jeannie necessarily intended to be mean. To me, there did not seem to be any real malicious/revenge intent there… she was simply laughing and joking with her brother’s friends and taking a bit of perverse delight in embarrassing him with some childhood stories. This is common sibling behaviour. I happily tell people about some of the stupid things my brother has done over the years and he’d probably be quite embarrassed to overhear me! Can I ask, do you have siblings yourself?

I also have to strongly disagree with your continued assumption that a sister making a joking comment about her brother wetting the bed implies that the bed-wetting was a symptom of ongoing, serious trauma. You don’t think Jeannie would mention it if it was a one-time occurrence? You have no way to know that. She wasn’t giving the team an in-depth expose of her brother’s deepest traumas here (I would think it all the more unlikely that she would ever discuss something like that in this way if it had been a serious, traumatic problem), she probably just told a funny story that involved Rodney wetting his bed. Heck, it could have been a story about him as an adult… getting drunk at college and passing out in his dorm and wetting his bed. It could have been anything. To assume the mere mention of bed-wetting means severe childhood trauma is presumptious at best. Bed-wetting is not always, automatically a symptom of trauma.

Likewise with the bullying – you assume that is indicative of long-term, systemic bullying. It could just as easily have been as I suggested: Rodney pushed someone too far and they decided to humiliate him for it. Yes, utterly wrong. Not necessarily proof that Rodney was systemically bullied and humiliated.

I feel you are making assumptions based on your personal experience and your strong feelings on the matter. I can certainly see how that can inform your perceptions of the scene and I’m sorry you find the events of the scene so difficult to deal with and that it in any way spoils your enjoyment of the show.

It’s interesting that you’ve decided to view the scene but a shame that you are going into that viewing with anything but an open mind. I also feel that, again, viewing the scene on it’s own, without the rest of the episode, is essentially taking the scene out of context. But it’s your choice.

Maybe you’d be better off seeing the whole episode and enjoying the lovely character moments – for Rodney and the rest of the team – there are and, as another poster suggested, just skipping past the scene you don’t enjoy.

Danner
October 3rd, 2006, 12:30 PM
...You must be able to see that your tone in many of your replies to Linzi was quite aggressive in nature and using phrasing such as “where on earth do you get this stuff?” etc only reinforced that impression – and it was to this that I was responding.

Hmm, well to be honest, I've never thought of myself as aggressive and it most certainly was not my intent to be so, I was annoyed and thought I was conveying that with my words... it's very annoying to be misquoted, or misrepresented and Linzi did this on a couple of occasions, which is the only reason I said “where on earth do you get this stuff?” - defending herself against an accusation I was supposed to have made, when in fact, I said no such thing, just really rankles, so I was annoyed, I wasn't feeling particularly aggressive though and if this is how I came across then I have to apologise to anyone who thought this and was offended by it, particularly Linzi.


I still feel that you are not open to other’s POVs in that you refuse to even admit that anyone else’s interpretation of the cafeteria scene could be in any way valid...

Saying that I am not open to other's POV's simply because I could find no common ground with the other posters on this particular point, does not mean that I am not open to other peoples POV's in general...

Re: the cafeteria scene and why I can't see what others see, I would like to answer this, whilst at the same time responding to this:


I admit I hadn’t realised that you knew nothing about the rest of the episode, you had mentioned transcripts etc and I thought you had read a transcript of the entire episode. To be honest, that makes it even harder for me to accept your interpretation of the scene, given that you are essentially taking it completely out of context.

I didn't say I didn't know anything about the episode, I know all about it at the basic level, what I don't know is intimate details such as the conversations in those scenes between Rodney and his sister that both yourself and EdenSG outlined for me... however I did know that Rodney had a troubled relationship with his sister, I also know about the alternatives, and the way Rod gets on so much better with everyone than Rodney does, I know that Zelenka seemed to take a shine to Jeannie... the list goes on... it's the intimate details that I don't know. However; what I do know is not only from reading countless posts and outlined thoughts re: the episode from those who have seen it, but also I have read a number of reviews, including those here, and one thing that seemed clear and was as good as stated in one review, is that Jeannie's intentions when relaying those tales about Rodney was with the sole intention to deliver a hurt to him as he had hurt her in the past. It's also been noted elsewhere, that Rodney was very much hurt, and had gone up to Jeannie and asked her why she told those tales, and what was it in revenge for... signifying to me that not only was Rodney deeply hurt by the cafeteria scene but also pretty clueless as to how he had obviously hurt Jeannie in the past... but the biggest thing I took from this was that the team did play into Jeannie's hand and delivered the hurt to Rodney as she had intended... and this is why I can never imagine seeing this scene as just a bunch of friends joking around with one of their own... and it's also why I believe that Rodney's experiences run far deeper than a one-time experience.


...People have read your posts, have understood them and have responded to them and agreed or disagreed with them. That is their prerogative and just because maybe their responses are not as in-depth or desperately serious as you might wish does not mean they don’t care about your reasons for being against this scene – they simply don’t agree with your reasons.

I think it's all a matter of perspective, there seemed to be no visible sign in the previous posts that anyone cared one jot about where I was coming from, it was certainly never referred to in any responses and more often than not I was simply faced with a repeat of the fact that they saw something I saw as painful as something highly humorous... In all honesty all I seemed to get from their posts (in relation to that scene that is), was a feeling that they didn't appreciate my view of it and their only interest was in defending the three characters involved.

I think if you are going to condemn me for not acknowledging their viewpoint, you would have to do the same re: them as well. Only both yourself and EdenSG (both very recent posts) have attempted to understand my viewpoint and convey your insights on the matter of that scene.


Can I ask, do you have siblings yourself?

Yeah, I do. Three brothers. :) We're all very close and I am particularly close to my middle brother who is only a year older than me, and this is one of the big reasons I had such a hard time understanding why Jeannie did what she did, because as mad as I can get with my brothers and believe me when we were younger... not so close... I would never tell anyone anything personal like this... sure we tell embarrassing stories and stuff, but not deeply personal hurtful memories.

I think we're going to have to agree to disagree about the bed-wetting, I really can't see it as being something that happened at college, or otherwise how would his sister know about it? and going back to her intent to hurt, then I imagine it was something that she knew would hurt... and a minor accident once or twice in his younger years is hardly going to bother him.

Re: the bullying...

I'll accept that it's possible that Rodney could have instigated what happened to him at school and that it was a one-time event, although, I personally think it's unlikely and I'm going by McKay's character here. As much as he has a large ego, he also has no problems in putting his hand up and admitting his mistakes, and if he had brought such a happening upon himself by his own actions, then as mortifying as the moment would have been, I think he would be more annoyed at himself than anything else, and a deep hurt would not be part of the equation and according to all that I have read, these memories did have the power to hurt him and that alone tells me that it was more than a one-time event that was of his own doing.

Re: me watching that scene... I have every intention of watching the entire episode, I'm sorry if I made it sound like I was only going to watch that scene, but I do thank you for your thoughtful comments in regards to me watching it. :)

But yeah, if I must watch that scene, then I think I'm going to need the rest of the episode to help get me past that...

I suppose if I have to be honest, I think going in, my view will be a little shuttered on this scene, but that shouldn't matter if it really is as you all say it is... like I said, I am an open-minded person, and thus, if the scene has something in it which allows the viewer to see it in more than one light, then I can assure you I will be frantically searching for that something... Unfortunately, based on what I have learned about this episode and that scene in particular... I just honestly don't think I'm going to find it... but I for one will be more than happy to be proved worng, if it gets me a scene without the Rodney mockery.

Merlin7
October 3rd, 2006, 01:19 PM
like I said, I am an open-minded person, and thus, if the scene has something in it which allows the viewer to see it in more than one light, then I can assure you I will be frantically searching for that something... Unfortunately, based on what I have learned about this episode and that scene in particular... I just honestly don't think I'm going to find it... but I for one will be more than happy to be proved worng, if it gets me a scene without the Rodney mockery.


I'm just jumping in after reading all your posts and the responses to your posts and your responses back. The key point to me in the above is you say you are open-minded. If that were true, by the very definition of open-minded, you wouldn't be judging a scene based on reading the transcript. You have to see it because it is about nuances and such. Reading a scene on paper never comes across the same when viewed on screen.

And, realistically, you've already VERY CLEARLY made it known that nothing will change your mind about that scene. To the point where you won't be able to watch it with an open mind. So it becomes a moot point.

Rodney is many things but traumatized by his child hood isn't one of them. In fanwank, yes. Because that's what people do. Take a nothing and make it something. As a fanfic writer, I've done it. I think we all have as fans or writers or both.

Rodney comes across as extremely well adjusted. A bit of a drama queen. He's had trauma, no doubt. So has everyone in Atlantis. They all adjust in their own ways.

Sure Rodney gets mocked. He sets himself up for a lot of it. He set himself up for Jeannie's reactions. Nothing about Jeannie suggests her being mean spirited. I think she noticed that Rodney's team had become his family and that's certainly proven at the end. And I bet you anything that if anyone outside the team/Family unit made fun of Rodney in mean spirited way, the team/family would defend him. Ronon would happily crush them and move on.

THe whole point of the ep was FAMILY. ROdney now knows he can include Jeannie once again.

obsessed1
October 3rd, 2006, 05:33 PM
Ali, Linzi, Merlin7 *applauds* well said.

it's certainly true that you must view the entire episode to understand it and taking a scene, one scene, out of context is just....well......words fail me.

Its like watching phantoms and only watching the scene where sheppard shoots Rodney. Wow, what assumptions you could make from that!

The cafeteria scene was not malicious. The way i see it, it was a sister telling old stories about her brother, to his friends.

It happens.

Heck, even husbands and wives do it; tell old stories about "Do you remember that time..." in front of their friends.
It's not different with brothers and sisters.

I just dont see it as malicious intent. It's obvious that the team are close, attuned to one another and would do anything for one another.
Yeah Rodney can be arrogant and unapproachable and he gives as good as he gets, but the team have a dyanamic. He moans, they respond with playful chiding. He says a task is impossible, they tell him he's got a big ego and he will do it.
the return part 1 they all have dinner together, shep and rodney talk on the phone etc

And lets face it, we're talking about a bunch of men here. They tease :D

okay, wow, that was a long ramble there, but hopefully you get the idea......

Danner
October 3rd, 2006, 09:47 PM
...The key point to me in the above is you say you are open-minded. If that were true, by the very definition of open-minded, you wouldn't be judging a scene based on reading the transcript. You have to see it because it is about nuances and such. Reading a scene on paper never comes across the same when viewed on screen.

Even the most open-minded of people hit areas where they may stand resolute on a subject which they hold close to their heart. You are assessing my character based solely on this one situation. Some might consider that offensive, but I imagine this was not your intent.

My opinion about that scene is simply that, my opinion, it is based on knowledge of events of which occurred in an episode of a fictional television show, based around fictional characters and fictional events. My complaint about this episode is in regards to a scene which has the heroes of the show, making light of *very real* and very nasty RL acts. Regardless of intent, I shudder to think what message this scene sends out to young impressionable people in regards to people who have experienced the very real trauma of schoolyard bullying.

Addressing your points:

I did not come into this discussion in an air-headed, "I have no idea what is going on" manner. I have asked questions of people and I have received answers. I do know that the team tried to make it up to McKay, but never once at any point was it made clear that they regretted laughing at him over his past misery... and no matter who you are, yes, even Dr Rodney (I can take anything you dish out) McKay, is going to feel, at the least, a sense of misery over that one (we'll assume it's a one-off for the sake of peace) memory. What would have been nice is if it was acknowledged openly that they didn't realise how the memory hurt McKay and that they were now sorry that they had laughed at him. But to those people I spoke to, apparently none of this was addressed... or at least in the same open and obvious manner as the cafeteria scene had been.

The definition of being open-minded does mean being receptive to new ideas, opinions and having no sense of prejudice... and granted, I have *admitted* that re: this one scene my view is somewhat shuttered, however; I have addressed the reasons why my view is such on this scene and being open-minded does not mean that you can't have a strong belief in your own assessment of a situation. However; I have also stated that I can be swayed in this view upon actual viewing of this scene, something I am willing to do to completely clarify the actual situation, even though I know myself enough to know that this scene is going to greatly affect me... and not in a good way.

I have been receptive to other opinions, when they have been addressed in a thoughful manner... but just because all of my original opinions since coming into this discussion haven't done a complete 180, doesn't mean that I'm not open-minded.

Outlining my original opinions and where they now stand:

(1) Jeannie McKay was deeply and utterly wrong in betraying her brother.

I have now changed that view to the fact that she had every right to make a point, to make her brother sit and take stock of what he was doing, I am disappointed in the way she went about it, but I totally understand her need.

(2) Gero has joined the ranks of all those other writers who spend a great deal of time making a mockery of my favourite character.

I now think I understand what he was trying to do and say... I think he could have found a better way in the case of the bullying situation, but I no longer believe he has simply "joined the ranks" and that he was actually making a point.

(3) The cafeteria scene is a disgraceful scene and one that definitely could have been written better and makes for very hard viewing for some fans.

My opinion remains pretty constant on this because no-one has offered an opinion on this scene which has made me sit back and think... "Ah, that's a good point" - and my opinion is based on unbiased views of this episode as well as knowledge of content. I have yet to speak to or read comments from anyone who hasn't loved this episode, but there has been a pretty equal number of people who found the cafeteria scene hard to take and not the slightest bit funny... and based on what I know, I don't think I would find it funny either and the *idea of it* is pretty upsetting to me... and this is what I was objecting to.

However; I am prepared to change my opinion, and I have listened to the advice of others enough to finally decide to "watch the scene" as people have suggested I do, even though this is something I most certainly did not want to do as I know how much it's going to upset me... and regardless of the fact that I do not hold much hope in seeing something to change my current opinion of this scene (steeped in the knowledge I do have of it) - I have stated that if there is something there to be seen (as others have stated there is) then I will see it... because I want to see it... I honestly do.

I would also like to ask where everyone else's open mind is when it comes to my personal opinion on this episode...not one person seems to have pondered any of the various points I have made, even though I have given some pretty detailed reasons for my views and opinions... even when it comes to things we can't know, such as the extent of Rodney's childhood bullying and bedwetting, I have ventured an opinion on those and followed that opinion up with valid reasons why I believe these opinions to be so, and yet not one person has even pondered those possibilities, I have been told in no uncertain terms, even though there is by no means any certainty on this (as it has not been addressed in the episode), that I am overanalysing or that Rodney is not upset by his memories of the bullying... this last alone signifies that no-one is open to my definition, and assumptions have been made on Rodney's feelings in this matter, which actually counters the fact that he *was* upset by the laughter...

... and I never once stated that I thought that Rodney was traumatized by his childhood, what I said was that what he went through would have been a traumatic experience.

... and I know the point of the episode is about family, I am not even commenting on the episode as a whole, I never have been, what I was commenting on was one (to me) unacceptable scene in what would otherwise have been a brilliant episode.

Danner
October 3rd, 2006, 11:20 PM
it's certainly true that you must view the entire episode to understand it and taking a scene, one scene, out of context is just....well......words fail me...

Sigh...

I never said I didn't understand the episode, I haven't even made any comments on the episode as a whole...

...In the case of your spoiler, I would not assume anything from just watching that scene, I would need more information before forming an opinion. In the case of the cafeteria scene in "McKay and Mrs Miller" - I have ample information on that scene and I know all about the episode, I know about the events leading up to the scene and I know about the scene itself and I know about the events after the scene, therefore I have not taken it out of context.

...And, I have already stated that I never once considered the cafeteria scene to be malicious, I thought it was thoughtless and mean... actually, initially, I thought they were mocking him (as the writers often do) - but I have reassessed my opinion on this (based on the responses to my posts)... and reduced it to thoughtless and mean(as in unkind).

I do understand all about teasing amongst friends and family, I'm not some sad sap who doesn't have fun, but in all my experiences of these type of situations, *everyone* involved can laugh at it, even the person being teased, that's what it's all about, a certain unity in the moment. This was not the case in the cafeteria scene. Rodney was not a happy participant, enjoying a mutual laugh with his friends, he was upset and hurt by it all and that alone removes the "teasing amongst friends" aspect of it all for me.


...It's obvious that the team are close, attuned to one another and would do anything for one another.

I don't doubt that for one minute when they are out on the field that they wouldn't put their life on the line for each other, they are a team and yes, I have always wanted to believe that they are close, simply because in their situation they would be and it's my own personal belief that McKay and Shep are good friends... but sometimes, the writers themselves do much damage to this overall belief in their desire to 'seperate' Rodney from the others, and their almost obsessive need to mock him.(the writers, not the team).

They (the writers) can also be somewhat contradictory in their observations of Rodney's relationship to his teammates:

Re: "The Return" part one

Shep states to Landry that he 'never expected to miss Rodney McKay being a member of his team', and Landry comments that 'chemistry takes some time to develop' which suggests to me an element of surprise over the depth of Shep's feelings for his ex-teammate. Nice moment granted, and about damn time too :) but it does make me wonder if I wasn't seeing an acknowledged friendship between these two much earlier than was actually there.

btw, feel free to correct this impression if I am wrong, as in this instance I *am* taking the scene out of context as I don't know about the rest of the episode


Yeah Rodney can be arrogant and unapproachable and he gives as good as he gets, but the team have a dyanamic. He moans, they respond with playful chiding. He says a task is impossible, they tell him he's got a big ego and he will do it.

Yep, not disputing this. I definitely see this and I'm not sure why you commented on this, I have not stated otherwise... unless you are re-inforcing your earlier comment about them being friends, but I am actually in agreement with you over this.


And lets face it, we're talking about a bunch of men here. They tease. :D

Don't forget Teyla as well... and I really don't hold with blanket statements, it's not about gender at all. Teasing is something that pretty much everyone is capable of, and like I said, teasing (as long as everyone enjoys the joke) is fine, no problems with that. But some situations call for an element of care and men are just as capable of that as women are... and in the cafeteria situation, I have come across nothing which suggests that any level of understanding re: Rodney's sensibilities were even taken into consideration.

Merlin7
October 4th, 2006, 12:34 PM
did not come into this discussion in an air-headed, "I have no idea what is going on" manner. I have asked questions of people and I have received answers. I do know that the team tried to make it up to McKay, but never once at any point was it made clear that they regretted laughing at him over his past misery... and no matter who you are, yes, even Dr Rodney (I can take anything you dish out) McKay, is going to feel, at the least, a sense of misery over that one (we'll assume it's a one-off for the sake of peace) memory. What would have been nice is if it was acknowledged openly that they didn't realise how the memory hurt McKay and that they were now sorry that they had laughed at him. But to those people I spoke to, apparently none of this was addressed... or at least in the same open and obvious manner as the cafeteria scene had been.



I never said you were being air-headed, and I was referring specifically to you NOT being open-minded about this point. Other stuff...I wouldn't know.

Why can't they laugh about Rodney's past misery's? They're more miserable than they really are when you're a kid and living through them. And I guarantee Shep and Teyla and Ronon all have their moments of misery.

It's a memory that wasn't pleasant, but they've all had those and still do. He's not all broken up and unable to go on with his life because of them. I had stuff happen that I wish never had. Hate remembering, but as an adult it wasn't as bad as it seemed at the time and I survived them all. Everyone does. It's not a big deal, nor did RODNEY make it a big deal.

bluealien
October 4th, 2006, 02:10 PM
I didn't see the Mess Hall scene as a big deal and frankly I don't think Rodney did either. Plain and simple. He was a bit miffed but as I saw it, not overly upset and got over the whole thing pretty quickly - which would lead me to believe that it was not a traumatic event for him.

Because if it was he wouldn't have been sitting with his team mates a few hours later laughing and joking with them.

Danner you seem to feel that you points have not been addressed at all but from what I have been reading so far, they have been addressed over and over again but you seem to want to hang on to the worst case scenario and I don't think you will change your mind about what you have read until you see the episode - and even then you may not - but at least you will be able to judge the scene for yourself and will not have to rely on other peoples opinions on what they thought of it.

obsessed1
October 4th, 2006, 02:30 PM
... and I know the point of the episode is about family, I am not even commenting on the episode as a whole, I never have been, what I was commenting on was one (to me) unacceptable scene in what would otherwise have been a brilliant episode.

But dont you see that this is the problem. You are commenting on one scene, one scene that can sound pretty bad on paper, but when watched really isn't a big deal. And it is out of context and it IS important that you see all of the episode. There are scenes after that one;)....As you have stated, you have decided to watch the episode and i really think thats a good idea. Seeing the scenes after put that scene into perspective and as bluealien stated, if Rodney had been truly affected by their teasing, he would not have sat down with them in the cafeteria at the end of the episode.

I really think you're reading too much into what was supposed to be a light-hearted scene, reflecting that the team do sit around and spend time together, do talk and obviously have lunch with each other as friends etc



I can't be bothered to reply to my previous post as i don't really think you quite understand what i was saying (Which is probably my fault through not expressing myself as coherently or as elequontly as i could have)

But anyway, there is so much to be said, so much to argue for the team and the writers having respect for Rodney as a friend and a character and so much more, but alas, i also can't be bothered to do that. We all have our opinions. We agree, we disagree. In that sense, its no-win.

Enjoy the episode for what it is; a showcase for DH acting, backstory to the character and well..........a damn good episode of Atlantis :D

prion
October 4th, 2006, 03:22 PM
I agree -

Danner you cannot judge an episode on other peoples comments. The episode is vey different to how you are interpreting peoples comments. To me it showed just how much his team and his sister care about McKay. We also see Rodney realise that HIS actions have also effected other people as well, his sister in particular.
I think you need to make your mind up about the ep after you have seen it.

VERY true. If you judged an episode by people's comments on this board, you'd either think every episode was the best thing since Cheese Whiz or the worst thing since the income tax was put through. And you can't judge episodes by transcripts; the actors put a lot of nuances into their performance which doesn't show up in mere text.

Danner
October 4th, 2006, 08:30 PM
Merlin7, bluealien, obsessed1 and prion

Before I get to your posts, I just want to say that I appreciate the fact that we are discussing the point I initially brought up and you are putting your points across, as am I and I will continue to answer any posts that are directed at me, but I have to say that you guys have no idea hoiw deeply I regret coming here in the first place. In spite of the fact that you have been responding to my points, the one very big underlying factor (from all posts, not just these), in which, everyone agrees, is the opinion that I am not qualified to make a judgement call, which pretty much assures me that my concerns and views are not really being considered as valid.

In real life, when chatting with my family and friends, we discuss all manner of things, including world events which we have not witnessed personally at all and can only go by the reports given and no-one jumps in and says, "hey, you can't make that judgement call, you never witnessed the event."

I do understand completely what you are all saying when you speak of seeing the scene for myself, in the main, nuance is very important, but sometimes a scene is so explicit in content that there is little room left for nuance and it's in this instance where I felt justified in making a judgement call... I honestly fail to see how a man walking in on a room full of laughter and discovering the fact that a deeply private part of his life is the reason for their mirth can be anything other than utterly wrong.

Danner
October 4th, 2006, 09:16 PM
Merlin7

The 'air-headed' comment I made was just me talking in general about the fact that I did have knowledge of content and understanding of the scene, I wasn't accusing you of calling me that... I'm really not that overly sensitive... you know, it's stuff like this and the fact that I have to watch every word I say that makes me realise that I'm not really suited for these places.

As for you referring specifically to me not being open-minded about this subject, I still totally disagree with you, as much as you do with me, however; you are entitled to your opinion on me, but it would have come across as less of a character assassination if you had stated your opinion in clear terms... something along the lines of "In my opinion, I don't believe you are being open-minded on this matter at all" - instead of what you did say, which was, and I quote: "The key point to me in the above is you say you are open-minded. If that were true,by the very definition of open-minded, you wouldn't be judging a scene based on reading the transcript" - If you were honest with yourself, you would see that you were making an overall character call with your statement. Personally though, I wasn't offended, this is the sort of stuff people say out of the top of their heads everyday in conversation, just as the things I have said are... but I got called on it and so I think the same rules should apply to everybody.


...And, realistically, you've already VERY CLEARLY made it known that nothing will change your mind about that scene. To the point where you won't be able to watch it with an open mind. So it becomes a moot point.

Actually, what I have very clearly (there's really no need to shout, I'm not deaf) made known is that I don't *expect* to change my view of the scene, based on what I know of it... if I thought my mind could be so easily changed then I wouldn't have had a problem with it in the first place, and further, considering the fact that scenes such as these really upset me, then I would hardly be considering watching it if I was planning on going in with a completely closed off mind on the matter... there would be no point in putting myself through such a thing, and I'm no masochist... and for clarification, I'm not accusing you of calling me one.


Why can't they laugh about Rodney's past misery's?

Common decency demands that they shouldn't. This was not 'Rodney slipping on a banana peel' stuff, this was about a deeply personal moment in his life which I have absolutely no doubt at all in my mind that he did not find funny in the slightest.


They're more miserable than they really are when you're a kid and living through them.

Yes, they are, but that doesn't negate the fact that the memory of them still has the power to hurt, and I honestly don't see why anyone would think that was funny.


And I guarantee Shep and Teyla and Ronon all have their moments of misery

There is every chance they do, but no-one is laughing at theirs are they? If there was such a scene as this for any one of these or anyone else for that matter, and Rodney was part of the gang laughing at them, I would be just as annoyed.


It's not a big deal, nor did RODNEY make it a big deal.

Out of curiosity, how does shouting out his name help make your point here?

No, I know he didn't make it a big deal, who would? If it were me, I would want it over with as quickly as possible, but that doesn't mean that I would be any less hurt by the laughter, particularly if I was as uncertain about myself when it came to interpersonal relationships as Rodney is.

Danner
October 4th, 2006, 10:15 PM
bluealien


I didn't see the Mess Hall scene as a big deal and frankly I don't think Rodney did either. Plain and simple. He was a bit miffed but as I saw it, not overly upset and got over the whole thing pretty quickly - which would lead me to believe that it was not a traumatic event for him.

I guess it all comes down to how we each perceive how something would affect someone, I would think that being forced to remove my underwear and wear them on my head in front of the entire schoolyard, whilst having to sit there and eat my lunch would be amazingly traumatic, however; for the sake of argument, let's assume that it wasn't traumatic for him, you can't deny that it would still be a somewhat painful memory for him and one he would rather not have known, let alone laughed at.

The very fact that he spoke to his sister about it confirms to me that it did bother him, otherwise he would have just shrugged it off and probably made some cutting remark to his sister about it in typical Rodney fashion.


Because if it was he wouldn't have been sitting with his team mates a few hours later laughing and joking with them.

This does not signify that he wasn't hurt by what happened. It simply means that he's not one to hold a grudge, which is a good thing. From what I know of the episode, McKay learnt a few home truths about himself whilst witnessing the interactions of the others with Rod, and also, Shep went out of his way to help matters with Rodney and his sister... so it's perfectly understandable that he would not want to harp on the cafeteria scene and just move on with his friends and teammates.


Danner you seem to feel that you points have not been addressed at all but from what I have been reading so far, they have been addressed over and over again but you seem to want to hang on to the worst case scenario and I don't think you will change your mind about what you have read until you see the episode - and even then you may not - but at least you will be able to judge the scene for yourself and will not have to rely on other peoples opinions on what they thought of it.

Hmm, possibly incorrect wording on my part, yes people have responded to my points about the scene, but that's not what I meant, what I meant is that no-one considered my view from the standpoint that I found it to be deeply upsetting. Let me try to clarify what I mean... Elsewhere, when I have spoken in conversations with people, I usually try to do my best to avoid upsetting someone by shoving that aspect in their face when it comes to my responses. Yes, I have disagreed with that person's perspective, but I usually try to find a way to avoid upsetting them further with my replies. In the earlier posts, all I kept reading was the fact that the poster thought the scene was hilarious, even though my take on the bullying was one which left no doubt that such things are deeply upsetting to me, and I would not be alone in that appraisal. This contributed in large part to a sense of annoyance and coloured the way I usually post.

I don't mean that everyone had to agree with my assessment, but their disagreement could have been couched in such a way as to at least signify a sense of compassion in their answers... I don't know, something along the lines of "I can see where you could interpret the scene in such a manner and it's unfortunate that it was so ambiguous, but I personally didn't see it the way you did, I simply saw it as a bunch of friends teasing another friend" - I would have disagreed with them as they do with me, but I wouldn't have felt that sense of lack of regard for my own sensibilities... and this is what I meant by no-one addressing my point... I guess I just wasn't very clear on the matter.

Re: the other point; you are incorrect when you assume that I *want* to hang on to the worst case scenario, I don't want this scenario at all... that's the whole problem, the trouble is the 'worst case' as you put it, is the only definition I have been able to draw from everything I have read about this scene. Still, as you say, I will know one way or the other once I have watched it.

Rosehawk
October 4th, 2006, 10:35 PM
In spite of the fact that you have been responding to my points, the one very big underlying factor (from all posts, not just these), in which, everyone agrees, is the opinion that I am not qualified to make a judgement call, which pretty much assures me that my concerns and views are not really being considered as valid.
Danner, I think what is happening here is that you are trying to have a valid conversation with people who have seen the episode and you have not seen the scene so the discussion is not on the same ground level of understanding which can and does make discussions like this difficult to communicate each other's viewpoints.

In real life, when chatting with my family and friends, we discuss all manner of things, including world events which we have not witnessed personally at all and can only go by the reports given and no-one jumps in and says, "hey, you can't make that judgement call, you never witnessed the event."
Where as here, the conversation everyone is on the basically on the same level ground, not actually being a part of the event being discussed. If there was someone in the discussion who had been involved in the world event I am sure that you would encounter similar type conversations. Actually being there and witnessing and feeling something, can and does change how a conversation is held because it affects ones perspective.
If everyone here had not seen that scene you would probably find more people much more receptive to the points you are trying to make.


I honestly fail to see how a man walking in on a room full of laughter and discovering the fact that a deeply private part of his life is the reason for their mirth can be anything other than utterly wrong.
It actually is wrong but I think that is part of the point the writers were trying to make. People lash out, people do things when they are hurting and Jeannie was hurting.
I have had this happen to me in a most painful way and when I saw the scene it made me twinge, but it did not take away from the show for me. In fact McKay and Mrs. Miller has been one of my most favorite episodes this year.
Just to share with you what happened to me, when I was in my twenties my husband died of a serious illness. The night of the day he was buried, several friends talked me into going out, to join the rest of the group of friends we hung out with, I didn't want to but I didn't want to be alone that night either. When I walked into the resturant one of the guys was up in front making fun of me, my mannerisms and how I spoke, everyone was laughing and it was at me, not with me. You should have seen the room get quiet when my friend cleared his throat. I acted like I hadn't heard what I heard-had no energy to do something even if I wanted to. My friend with me knew I heard and saw. And yeah it hurt, it hurt like hell but people do do stupid insenstive things and hurt others. It happens and in the case of Jeannie for her to share those experiences shows the depth of her anger and pain at her brother.
The humor these guys shared at my expense was from their pain and trying to make it go away - not saying it was right, just saying this is what they did.
(Okay, no sympathy stuff here, I have dealt with it and moved on in my life, just thought that it might help to have a real life example to illustrate the point.)

Hope some of this helps.

Danner
October 4th, 2006, 10:44 PM
obsessed1


But dont you see that this is the problem. You are commenting on one scene, one scene that can sound pretty bad on paper, but when watched really isn't a big deal. And it is out of context and it IS important that you see all of the episode. There are scenes after that one;)....As you have stated, you have decided to watch the episode and i really think thats a good idea. Seeing the scenes after put that scene into perspective and as bluealien stated, if Rodney had been truly affected by their teasing, he would not have sat down with them in the cafeteria at the end of the episode.

Actually, my view is from reading reviews from other people who have seen the scene, as well as speaking to people who have seen the scene and asking for information on it, and also just reading comments between other people who have viewed the scene. (So far, I have not met one single person who has a bad thing to say about the episode apart from the cafeteria scene). From all this I have been able to piece the scene together pretty well in my mind, including the fact of how Rodney took it, by the fact that he confronted his sister over it... and the picture painted seems pretty clear to me on how I would take it even if I had viewed it. Still, I will allow for the fact that there may be some key point that I have missed in all of this, which is why I have decided to watch it.


I really think you're reading too much into what was supposed to be a light-hearted scene, reflecting that the team do sit around and spend time together, do talk and obviously have lunch with each other as friends etc


All this really remains to be seen. I can't remember an earlier scene (and we're in season three now) where it's been made obvious that the team pal around outside of working hours... what I have seen are bonding moments between Shep, Teyla and Ronan, but never with Rodney, and this scene is just another where the other three are sitting around together, yucking it up with each other over what they have learnt about Rodney's past... something that he walked in on, not something that he was in on from the very beginning.

I guess it all comes down to what we each see as acceptable behaviour. For me personally, this is something I would never tease someone on anyway. I would be horrified for them and not find it the least bit amusing.


Enjoy the episode for what it is; a showcase for DH acting, backstory to the character and well..........a damn good episode of Atlantis. :D

:) I'm sure that DH gave a fine performance and from what I have heard so did KH, and it is interesting to finally get a bit of a backstory on Rodney. Hopefully in the main I will enjoy the episode, but I can't help but wish that the cafeteria scene had not been included.

Danner
October 4th, 2006, 11:10 PM
prion


VERY true. If you judged an episode by people's comments on this board, you'd either think every episode was the best thing since Cheese Whiz or the worst thing since the income tax was put through

*laughs* Not disputing that at all.

I haven't judged the episode as a whole, only one scene within it, and that was based on a number of reviews on it and personal comments elsewhere, which not only covered the episode as a whole but also detailed the cafeteria scene and those people's perception of it. I have looked over the board comments to see further perceptions but didn't really manage to garner any further knowledge apart from the fact that many perceived the scene to be hilarious, and from what I knew of the scene and it's content, I honestly couldn't see where it could come across as humorous... and I still don't.

I would like to point, out in a general sense, that me concentrating on the cafeteria scene as opposed to the entire episode is purely because I found the idea of it,( from what I learnt about it), to be somewhat offensive and this is the reason for my original post concentrating on that fact, and not the fact that this is all I know about the episode.


And you can't judge episodes by transcripts; the actors put a lot of nuances into their performance which doesn't show up in mere text.

That they do, but I have covered my view on this already, so forgive me for not responding as I don't want to repeat myself.

Linzi
October 4th, 2006, 11:47 PM
VERY true. If you judged an episode by people's comments on this board, you'd either think every episode was the best thing since Cheese Whiz or the worst thing since the income tax was put through. And you can't judge episodes by transcripts; the actors put a lot of nuances into their performance which doesn't show up in mere text.
Agreed, Prion.
How can the actors performances not be important in a scene when understanding the intent of the writer? How can one interpret the true meaning of a sentence if one doesn't hear the nuances of the voice saying it? Even then it's up to the individual to interpret those nuances.
Just look at this forum. Things typed in black and white are misinterpreted all the time, because we don't necessarily understand the posters intent and things come across very differently sometimes on paper.
I stand by my original assertion. To view a scene from an episode relying on other people's opinions and speculation when you have not viewed the scene or seen it in the context of the whole show does not give a complete or accurate idea of what is happening. It means your opinions are formed from others, which in turn means you are not being objective, and haven't formed your own opinions; you're being influenced by other people's views. That's fine, but as Rosehawk said, there isn't any common ground for discussion with others who have seen the episode and formed their own opinions.
Rosehawk I know you're not looking for sympathy, but I'm so sorry to read what happened to you. You're a very forgiving and understanding person to make sense out of such a cruel act. You have my admiration. :sheppard:

Danner
October 4th, 2006, 11:55 PM
Rosehawk


Danner, I think what is happening here is that you are trying to have a valid conversation with people who have seen the episode and you have not seen the scene so the discussion is not on the same ground level of understanding which can and does make discussions like this difficult to communicate each other's viewpoints.


Where as here, the conversation everyone is on the basically on the same level ground, not actually being a part of the event being discussed. If there was someone in the discussion who had been involved in the world event I am sure that you would encounter similar type conversations. Actually being there and witnessing and feeling something, can and does change how a conversation is held because it affects ones perspective.
If everyone here had not seen that scene you would probably find more people much more receptive to the points you are trying to make.

I definitely see this and you have made a couple of very good points, and possibly, I should not have come here in the first place to post my views, I do see that now, it's unfortunate that by the time I get to see this episode, any discussion about it here will be long gone.

I would like to point out though that it's definitely different on a board than out here in the big wide world, because I have had conversations with people over things they have seen or read and I have not (and vice-versa) and we have had discussions on them... sometimes very interesting ones and sometimes quite heated ones. :) but our viewpoints are always given consideration and not dismissed because I/we/they don't have the exact same information that others do.


It actually is wrong but I think that is part of the point the writers were trying to make. People lash out, people do things when they are hurting and Jeannie was hurting.
I have had this happen to me in a most painful way and when I saw the scene it made me twinge, but it did not take away from the show for me. In fact McKay and Mrs. Miller has been one of my most favorite episodes this year.

Thank-you. :) Yes, I agree with you about the point of the writers, I have actually re-assessed my view of Jeannie's actions and Gero during these discussions, but you worded it so beautifully that I just had to comment on this.

It's the fact of how the others acted with the knowledge they gained which is what still upsets me and probably wouldn't have if there had been a scene addressing this, but there wasn't and so it all just left a bad taste in my mouth.


Hope some of this helps.

Yes, and thank-you for your thoughtful post.

I realise now that I really shouldn't have posted my thoughts on the cafeteria scene in a place where people have seen the episode, as there will probably never be any common ground between us, and that's fine, my mistake.

I thank you for opening my eyes on this matter, and although I do remain firm in my own opinions expressed as related to the others laughing at McKay *as I currently understand it* I think it would be best for me to just sit back and wait for the episode to air before saying any more on it.

In the case of Jeannie McKay, I can now see where her anger took her to a place she may later regret visiting, but my perception of her actions are much clearer now.

I know you said no sympathy, and I completely understand that wish. But I hope you will forgive me for giving it anyway, because I can't read something like this and not be moved by it. You near brought me to tears and I personally think that there was no excuse in the world good enough for what those people did to you.

Best wishes. :)

Alipeeps
October 5th, 2006, 01:11 AM
Without wishing to be rude Danner - and I have to specify that because after reading through all the discussion on here, it does seem that you are very quick to take offense and interpret people's posts as being in some way malicious towards you - I think you are projecting here.

As I've said before, it is very clear - and you yourself have admitted - that the issue of bullying touches a very personal nerve for you. I think I have to agree with your assessment that you probably should not have come into this discussion as it's clear that a) the topic upsets you, b) you have very strong ideas on the subject and c) you have difficulty dealing with the fact that others may not share your view.

Your view on this scene is very clearly affected by your past experiences - how could it not be? - and in that situation I don't honestly feel it is possible for you to engage in objective discussion of the scene.

The mere fact that this discussion has gone on so long shows that people are responding to your point of view and are discussing it, are stating their own views in response etc etc and yet you still seem to feel that your views are being discounted and that people are personally attacking you just because they disagree with you. You've accused people of "character assassination" because they stated they didn't think you were being open minded (which, in that you have admitted to major preconceptions about this scene, you are clearly not).

If you're that sensitive about things (and surely we don't have to put a disclaimer of "in my opinion" before everything we post in here? It goes without saying that what someone posts in this forum is their own personal opinion) then, yes, I don't think you should have joined in this discussion.

The fact of the matter is that people have discussed your views, endlessly and repeatedly, but also that they still question the validity of your views because you have less information than they do about the subject. All your analogies of real-life discussions etc where people haven't witnessed the event etc are specious because in this situation, on this forum, you are the only person who hasn't witnessed the event, trying to have an in-depth discussion of it's intent and merits with everyone else who has seen it. That automatically puts you at a disadvantage and if you can't see that then I don't know what else there is to discuss...

I'm not going to go into again all the assumptions you are making in your interpretation of the scene as it's been discussed to death and you seem totally unwilling to accept that your assumptions are just that - assumptions - and not fact. If the issue of bullying is that sensitive for you that you feel that even watching the scene will be upsetting for you then I respectfully suggest that you don't. I don't think it's a good idea for you to put yourself through that and make yourself upset just for the sake of a discussion about a TV show. Do yourself a favour and give this episode a miss.

Can we perhaps get this thread back to discussing the epsiode in general instead of obsessing over interpretation of one scene?

Linzi
October 5th, 2006, 02:49 AM
Without wishing to be rude Danner - and I have to specify that because after reading through all the discussion on here, it does seem that you are very quick to take offense and interpret people's posts as being in some way malicious towards you - I think you are projecting here.

As I've said before, it is very clear - and you yourself have admitted - that the issue of bullying touches a very personal nerve for you. I think I have to agree with your assessment that you probably should not have come into this discussion as it's clear that a) the topic upsets you, b) you have very strong ideas on the subject and c) you have difficulty dealing with the fact that others may not share your view.

Your view on this scene is very clearly affected by your past experiences - how could it not be? - and in that situation I don't honestly feel it is possible for you to engage in objective discussion of the scene.

The mere fact that this discussion has gone on so long shows that people are responding to your point of view and are discussing it, are stating their own views in response etc etc and yet you still seem to feel that your views are being discounted and that people are personally attacking you just because they disagree with you. You've accused people of "character assassination" because they stated they didn't think you were being open minded (which, in that you have admitted to major preconceptions about this scene, you are clearly not).

If you're that sensitive about things (and surely we don't have to put a disclaimer of "in my opinion" before everything we post in here? It goes without saying that what someone posts in this forum is their own personal opinion) then, yes, I don't think you should have joined in this discussion.

The fact of the matter is that people have discussed your views, endlessly and repeatedly, but also that they still question the validity of your views because you have less information than they do about the subject. All your analogies of real-life discussions etc where people haven't witnessed the event etc are specious because in this situation, on this forum, you are the only person who hasn't witnessed the event, trying to have an in-depth discussion of it's intent and merits with everyone else who has seen it. That automatically puts you at a disadvantage and if you can't see that then I don't know what else there is to discuss...

I'm not going to go into again all the assumptions you are making in your interpretation of the scene as it's been discussed to death and you seem totally unwilling to accept that your assumptions are just that - assumptions - and not fact. If the issue of bullying is that sensitive for you that you feel that even watching the scene will be upsetting for you then I respectfully suggest that you don't. I don't think it's a good idea for you to put yourself through that and make yourself upset just for the sake of a discussion about a TV show. Do yourself a favour and give this episode a miss.

Can we perhaps get this thread back to discussing the epsiode in general instead of obsessing over interpretation of one scene?
What a wonderful and reasoned post, Ali. I agree, let's not continue discussing one scene, let's talk about other ones. :)
I'll kick this off:
One of my favourite scenes from M&MM, was the scene where Sheppard was cleaning his golf clubs, listening to Rodney bare his soul. I just love the interaction of these two characters at the best of times, but here I both laughed and 'awwwed'.
Firstly I loved the way that Sheppard showed his friendship towards McKay. He patiently listened to his friend, not foisting his views on him, but then offered an opinion which made Rodney realise how he'd behaved - it all just dawned on him in a epiphanical (is that actually a word?, lol!) way.
I loved the way Sheppard hmmmed and arggghed through the conversation; the cleaning of his clubs made it initially seem his wasn't listening to McKay's little freak out, yet we know from his responses he was.
I also liked that McKay suddenly realised why Jeannie might have a problem with him, and why she might actually prefer Rod to him. I actually did feel sympathy for him here. It isn't nice to realise we've made mistakes, or behaved badly, and to realise that to move on and forge a good relationship we have to atone for our errors or bad judgments.
That scene made me smile also, because Sheppard was obsessively cleaning pristine clubs! Methinks the man is a little obsessed with his golf!

Alipeeps
October 5th, 2006, 04:07 AM
What a wonderful and reasoned post, Ali. I agree, let's not continue discussing one scene, let's talk about other ones. :)
I'll kick this off:
One of my favourite scenes from M&MM, was the scene where Sheppard was cleaning his golf clubs, listening to Rodney bare his soul. I just love the interaction of these two characters at the best of times, but here I both laughed and 'awwwed'.
Firstly I loved the way that Sheppard showed his friendship towards McKay. He patiently listened to his friend, not foisting his views on him, but then offered an opinion which made Rodney realise how he'd behaved - it all just dawned on him in a epiphanical (is that actually a word?, lol!) way.
I loved the way Sheppard hmmmed and arggghed through the conversation; the cleaning of his clubs made it initially seem his wasn't listening to McKay's little freak out, yet we know from his responses he was.
I also liked that McKay suddenly realised why Jeannie might have a problem with him, and why she might actually prefer Rod to him. I actually did feel sympathy for him here. It isn't nice to realise we've made mistakes, or behaved badly, and to realise that to move on and forge a good relationship we have to atone for our errors or bad judgments.
That scene made me smile also, because Sheppard was obsessively cleaning pristine clubs! Methinks the man is a little obsessed with his golf!

Oh my word yes, I adored that scene. That absolutely portrayed and summed up the friendship between these two men without being obvious about it, without shouting "Hey look! They're best friends!":
The fact that McKay goes to Sheppard to talk when he's got things on his mind
The fact that Sheppard just lets him ramble and get things off his chest, being an unbiased listener, as it were..
The fact that Sheppard knows McKay well enough to know what is truly bothering him and says the one thing needed to let McKay realise that for himselfThe humour of it... Sheppard's response when McKay mentions that he's not very good at apologising or admitting he's wrong "perhaps because it happens so rarely" :lol: Love the way Sheppard's "uh-huh" was just a weeeee bit sarcastic there! :D

I think it was a totally accurate portrayal of how friends - particularly male friends - behave. They don't have serious heart to hearts about their problems and share their deepest emotions... they sit and clean their golf clubs and let their friends rant about something that's bugging them and subtly give them the little shove they need to make up their own mind about what they need to do... and then they go and give a little extra help behind their friend's back to make sure things get sorted out for their friend.. ;)

maxbo
October 5th, 2006, 08:34 AM
What a wonderful and reasoned post, Ali. I agree, let's not continue discussing one scene, let's talk about other ones. :)
I'll kick this off:
One of my favourite scenes from M&MM, was the scene where Sheppard was cleaning his golf clubs, listening to Rodney bare his soul. I just love the interaction of these two characters at the best of times, but here I both laughed and 'awwwed'.
Firstly I loved the way that Sheppard showed his friendship towards McKay. He patiently listened to his friend, not foisting his views on him, but then offered an opinion which made Rodney realise how he'd behaved - it all just dawned on him in a epiphanical (is that actually a word?, lol!) way.
I loved the way Sheppard hmmmed and arggghed through the conversation; the cleaning of his clubs made it initially seem his wasn't listening to McKay's little freak out, yet we know from his responses he was.
I also liked that McKay suddenly realised why Jeannie might have a problem with him, and why she might actually prefer Rod to him. I actually did feel sympathy for him here. It isn't nice to realise we've made mistakes, or behaved badly, and to realise that to move on and forge a good relationship we have to atone for our errors or bad judgments.
That scene made me smile also, because Sheppard was obsessively cleaning pristine clubs! Methinks the man is a little obsessed with his golf!

In an episode filled with great scenes, this scene also stood out for me because it spotlighted Sheppard and Rodney's friendship in such a natural, low-keyed way. On the surface, it appeared that not much was happening during that scene because Sheppard was just sitting there cleaning his golf clubs and Rodney was going on about something as he often does. However, when you watch that scene closer you realize that it was about so much more because Sheppard wasn't just sitting there cleaning his already spotless golf clubs - he was really providing Rodney with a much needed, non-judgmental sounding board. He gave Rodney just enough feedback to allow him to work through what was troubling him without making him feel like he was on the defensive.

And Rodney, just by going to Sheppard during what had to be one of the most trying times of his life, showed how much he valued Sheppard's friendship. Wonderful scene.

Alipeeps
October 5th, 2006, 09:13 AM
In an episode filled with great scenes, this scene also stood out for me because it spotlighted Sheppard and Rodney's friendship in such a natural, low-keyed way. On the surface, it appeared that not much was happening during that scene because Sheppard was just sitting there cleaning his golf clubs and Rodney was going on about something as he often does. However, when you watch that scene closer you realize that it was about so much more because Sheppard wasn't just sitting there cleaning his already spotless golf clubs - he was really providing Rodney with a much needed, non-judgmental sounding board. He gave Rodney just enough feedback to allow him to work through what was troubling him without making him feel like he was on the defensive.

And Rodney, just by going to Sheppard during what had to be one of the most trying times of his life, showed how much he valued Sheppard's friendship. Wonderful scene.

Ack. Precisely. You've just explained that so much more succinctly and eloquently than my rambling attempt above - thank you! :D

Linzi
October 5th, 2006, 09:14 AM
In an episode filled with great scenes, this scene also stood out for me because it spotlighted Sheppard and Rodney's friendship in such a natural, low-keyed way. On the surface, it appeared that not much was happening during that scene because Sheppard was just sitting there cleaning his golf clubs and Rodney was going on about something as he often does. However, when you watch that scene closer you realize that it was about so much more because Sheppard wasn't just sitting there cleaning his already spotless golf clubs - he was really providing Rodney with a much needed, non-judgmental sounding board. He gave Rodney just enough feedback to allow him to work through what was troubling him without making him feel like he was on the defensive.

And Rodney, just by going to Sheppard during what had to be one of the most trying times of his life, showed how much he valued Sheppard's friendship. Wonderful scene.
Exactly. I have to give credit to both actors here too. They played the scene just damn perfectly, IMO!!!!!

prion
October 5th, 2006, 09:35 AM
Merlin7, bluealien, obsessed1 and prion

Before I get to your posts, I just want to say that I appreciate the fact that we are discussing the point I initially brought up and you are putting your points across, as am I and I will continue to answer any posts that are directed at me, but I have to say that you guys have no idea hoiw deeply I regret coming here in the first place. In spite of the fact that you have been responding to my points, the one very big underlying factor (from all posts, not just these), in which, everyone agrees, is the opinion that I am not qualified to make a judgement call, which pretty much assures me that my concerns and views are not really being considered as valid.

In real life, when chatting with my family and friends, we discuss all manner of things, including world events which we have not witnessed personally at all and can only go by the reports given and no-one jumps in and says, "hey, you can't make that judgement call, you never witnessed the event."

I do understand completely what you are all saying when you speak of seeing the scene for myself, in the main, nuance is very important, but sometimes a scene is so explicit in content that there is little room left for nuance and it's in this instance where I felt justified in making a judgement call... I honestly fail to see how a man walking in on a room full of laughter and discovering the fact that a deeply private part of his life is the reason for their mirth can be anything other than utterly wrong.

What this whole discussion really boils down to is that, if I'm getting it right, you haven't seen the episode and are relying on other folks' reports on it to formulate whether you're going to like it or not. I have done that, but I do it with friends who know my tastes, and vice versa. I have read spoilers on episodes and thought, 'gawd, this sounds AWFUL,' but I still watch, becuase heck, if I'm going to say that 'such and such an episode/show/movie sucks', I'd like to have seen it (or at least part of it) myself.

I know lots of folks who just avoid boards like this and watch the show. It's great to hang with other fans, but sometimes that can also drag a person down (or give 'em false hope), depending on your viewpoint. And hey, you're welcome to dislike a particular scene in an episode. I dare say many fans can love an episode but perhaps cringe at one line of dialogue, or one scene.

obsessed1
October 5th, 2006, 11:10 AM
Danner - Enjoy the episode and come back and let us know what you thought when you've watched it. You might be pleasantly suprised :D

If i had based opinions on this episode from what people told me or what i read I would have thought "A rodney centric episode?" aw man, i'll give it a miss.....but i'll give every episode a chance and i was pleasantly suprised.
I do like Rodney btw, but i love Shep!

It was interesting to get an insight into Rodney's relationship with his sister, view his awkwardness with her family, and his absoloute obsession with science, to the point that it really is self destructive to his familial relationship. The end when he finds some common ground with his sister and he gives her a hug - well, that had me tearing up. We've caught glimpses over the seasons that Rodney isn't all bad and that he really cares, and as each episode progresses you really get a feel for Rodneys appreciation of having real friends and co-workers who, may find him a little exhausting at times, but really DO like him and respect him.

The cleaning golfclubs/rodney chatting scene was great. Beautifully understated .

I also loved the scene where Shep shows Jeannie the video and then when Rodney comes in he deflects his real reason and instead makes a joke, you know, pretending he doesnt care when he really does.

the very end cafeteria scene was another favourite, simply because it was the four of them sitting together, talking and bonding. Their attempts to say Rod was annoying to make Rodney feel better and Shep joking that Teyla has the hots for one of the new marines. It showed their friendship, not just people assigned to a team, but a finely crafted relationship in which they want to spend time together outside of work.

We've all written before that they have lunch together in fanfic and it's nice to see it as truly canon. See, they all wuv each other really :D

oh and also the, "I was just saying hi" bit with jeannie, and Rodney calls him Kirk LOL!

maxbo
October 5th, 2006, 12:04 PM
Ack. Precisely. You've just explained that so much more succinctly and eloquently than my rambling attempt above - thank you! :D

You're hilarious. I love your "rambling attempt." :D You nailed it when you noted that this scene is an accurate protrayal of how male friends behave. That scene was so natural and so good that it was like a good fanfic scene come to life.


Exactly. I have to give credit to both actors here too. They played the scene just damn perfectly, IMO!!!!!

I agree that JF and DH nailed that scene and did a great job of showing how close Sheppard and Rodney have become.

Danner
October 5th, 2006, 06:49 PM
If you're that sensitive about things (and surely we don't have to put a disclaimer of "in my opinion" before everything we post in here? It goes without saying that what someone posts in this forum is their own personal opinion) then, yes, I don't think you should have joined in this discussion.

Not sensitive at all, just making a point which seems to have flown right over your head.

EDIT: Decided not to respond to the rest of your post for reasons I will not outline, simply because I have no intention of volleying back and forth on personal opinions, however; I would like to comment about your advice about me not watching the episode. I appreciate the fact that you considered my feelings on the matter re: the cafeteria scene and warned me against putting myself through such an experience... trust me, I strongly considered whether it was worth it myself... but I have now reached the point where I think I do need to see it for myself just to see if I can find something less disturbing about it and therefore rest a little easier about it. But thank-you for your consideration on this matter. I strongly disagree with you on other matters, just as you do with me... but I thought a thank-you was in order for that last paragraph at least.

To prion and obsessed1

Thank-you both for your understanding responses to me. I appreciate that. :)

prion a small group of the people I spoke to about the scene do know my tastes, however; not on the same deep level as personal friends and family, so I get your point. :) and I do know what you mean about still needing to see it. I myself have often been pleasantly surprised about things that I've watched and gone into not expecting that much at all. "Troy" was a classic example of that for me. Hopefully, even if I can never stomach the cafeteria scene, I will still thoroughly enjoy the rest of the episode. :)

obsessed1 :) I enjoyed reading about those scenes you outlined which meant so much to you. Yeah, I've heard about the golfclub cleaning scene and it's one that sounds wonderful, I have been waiting so long for scenes with Rodney and Shep which show that they are good friends, and I was beginning to despair that nothing like this would ever be written.

The Kirk scene is classic Rodney. :D

I doubt I will be back with my opinion on the episode though as it will be some time before we get it over here and also I think it's pretty clear now by a couple of the responses I have received that my opinion on this particular episode will carry no weight here, but thank-you for the offer, and hopefully, I will enjoy the episode.

No need to respond to any of this, as I had already made up my mind not to post anymore on this after reading Rosehawk's post yesterday, which most certainly was a wonderful and reasoned post in my opinion.

Willow'sCat
October 7th, 2006, 12:42 AM
Danner I would watch the episode but skip the Cafeteria scenes, they really screwed the ep up for me personally, but it is still the best SGA episode of the season and possibly the entire show *my opinion* but I understand, and a lot of other McKay fans do as well, how you feel.

I would watch it. ;) :)

I would watch it for the ending alone. EDIT: I mean the ending with Jeannie and Rodney ;) The actual ending left me with more questions on the Teams motives then anything, and I find myself wanting to skip that as well.

I think David Hewlett was fantastic in this episode, David shone and so did Kate. Watch it.

smushybird
October 7th, 2006, 05:22 PM
Your view on this scene is very clearly affected by your past experiences - how could it not be? - and in that situation I don't honestly feel it is possible for you to engage in objective discussion of the scene.

Well, no one's going to be completely objective about the scene. We all went through experiences like that, some far worse than others, but everyone's bringing some emotional component to their opinions expressed here.

I, too, dealt with that crap all through school, but the Rodney-torment scenes of which the writers take so much delight in providing us were not my main objection to them. I watched the episode a few times and I understand that boys will be (obnoxious) boys at times and bond with each other in oh so obnoxious ways, so I overlooked Ronon and Sheppard's behavior (I was a little surprised by Teyla, tho').

The false note for me was Jeannie McKay. After seeing her interact with her husband and especially her daughter, I just don't believe for a single instant that she would relate to virtual strangers such cruel things about her brother, no matter how upset she was with him. She struck me as a very sympathetic and sensitive woman and not at all spiteful. And I didn't feel like the writers established that she possessed that kind of mean-spirited streak. I am not as kind-hearted and mature a person as Jeannie was written to be, and yet I would never do that to my brother or my sisters. So I just simply don't buy it...

That, above all else, kept the scenes from being credible to me.

YMMV.

Willow'sCat
October 7th, 2006, 07:27 PM
Well, no one's going to be completely objective about the scene. We all went through experiences like that, some far worse than others, but everyone's bringing some emotional component to their opinions expressed here.Well exactly, and how anyone can view a show or indeed a movie or read a book and NOT bring their personal views, interpretations based on beliefs and experience is beyond me. :S Even the most careful of reviewers will bring their own biases to bare... that is human nature.


I, too, dealt with that crap all through school, but the Rodney-torment scenes of which the writers take so much delight in providing us were not my main objection to them.Sorry to hear of your experiences although not surprised having witnessed similar things when I was at school and even in my working life. Thankfully I have never been bullied or made fun of in such a blatant and hurtful way, I was usually the one standing up for others. ;) And besides petty game playing is not my thing and I find only real morons or those with something to hide themselves engage in that kind of behaviour. There is nothing good or right about bullying or making fun of it... sorry there is not! If I had children and it happened to them I would want to see the perpetrators held accountable not slapped on the back and told how funny it all is. :cool:


The false note for me was Jeannie McKay. After seeing her interact with her husband and especially her daughter, I just don't believe for a single instant that she would relate to virtual strangers such cruel things about her brother, no matter how upset she was with him. She struck me as a very sympathetic and sensitive woman and not at all spiteful. And I didn't feel like the writers established that she possessed that kind of mean-spirited streak. I am not as kind-hearted and mature a person as Jeannie was written to be, and yet I would never do that to my brother or my sisters. So I just simply don't buy it...I have to say that has annoyed me as well, it is a contradiction in her presented character I don't buy either, I can understand her being annoyed at him but where is all this hatred coming from? :S

Also she is presented as independent and having her own views and thoughts on things, but she still needs/wants her brothers approval to justify her choices in life? Why? I don't buy it, not as a sister myself, and not as the character she is presented as.... This is not Kate's fault it is Martin Gero's or maybe the people who have final script approval.

The other thing I felt was off, for want of a better word, was The Team, Teyla for all we know of her, seems more sympathetic to Rodney then anyone else in The Team, so why was she written like this? Did they just need to use her in a scene? *contractual thing* :S Ronon I got; he is an insensitive he-man type character so no growth problem there.

Sheppard; well I am going off his character more and more these days, he is not being written well by anyone really, and here as Team leader he again shows it is all just in name not action. I hope for a mature Leader one day, sadly not in him it seems. *thank god for fanfic, at least some people know how to write him* ;)

But having said all that; to McKay's credit, he let it all mostly go by him, of course given he was bullied at school, he is sadly probably just use to this kind of behaviour from people who "pretend" to care about him. And he did show by the end of this episode that he, unlike some on SGA, can actually learn form his past mistakes and yes grow a little as a person and brother. Of course we still have to deal with the writers inconsistencies, unfortunately there is nothing we can do about that. :rolleyes:

Danner
October 7th, 2006, 11:24 PM
Thank-you Willow'sCat for your advice re: watching "McKay and Mrs Miller" - I deeply appreciate your viewpoint. :)


Well, no one's going to be completely objective about the scene. We all went through experiences like that, some far worse than others, but everyone's bringing some emotional component to their opinions expressed here.

An excellent point!

smushybird and Willow'sCat I would love to take part in your discussion about the episode, but I have already made a pledge not to involve myself further in this discussion until I have viewed the episode, so I don't feel that I honestly can without feeling wrong about doing so, but I just want to say that I thought both of your posts were well thought out, nicely reasoned and just the thing for this posters weary heart. :)

On matters of personal thoughts which require no actual viewing of the episode:

smushybird I am sorry to hear that you went through your own being bullied experiences at school and whilst I (as I have already outlined in a much earlier post), have only experienced it second hand through intervention and can never fully appreciate the sense of misery that must accompany being the focus of such actions, I have nothing but the deepest sympathy for anyone who has gone through this, and the utmost distaste for those who engage in this sort of behaviour. Don't get me wrong, I don't think(from reading your post) for one minute you had to go through what poor old McKay did, but any degree of bullying is disruptive and I am sorry that anyone has to ever experience this in their lives.

I totally agree about not doing something like what Jeannie did, to my siblings (or anyone for that matter), it's really extreme and deeply cruel, and whilst I have now learnt to understand the why's of her actions, and can sympathise with her hurt, I will never agree with her methods.


*thank god for fanfic, at least some people know how to write him* ;)

Oh yeah, they most certainly do. :)

Chailyn
October 9th, 2006, 11:38 PM
Well, I really enjoyed this one. I loved Rodney showing up to his sister's house with flowers. He looked so put out. And finding out his first name was just too good! I also liked that he wasn't so stupid over Sam. Our little Rodney is growing up. His interaction with Sheppard was, as always, fun to watch. I also liked the fact that Sheppard tried to patch things up between Rodney and his sister. Seriously, Sheppard can fight it all he wants, but I'm really starting to believe that McKay is his best friend on Atlantis.

Another good thing is that we got rid of the ZPM. Not sure I liked how they did it, but I'm just glad they did.

This episode wasn't perfect for me though. I was shocked by the double Rodney plot. I think I might have wanted them to make the double-Rodney idea an episode of its own, one that could fully embrace the comic effect. I get why they did it--to compare the two Rodneys in relation to his relationship with his sister, but I think there was just too much going on at once for me.

As for Rodney being teased, I wasn't shocked he was the bullied kid in school, nor was I offended by Sheppard or Ronon. Just my opinion. I came from a rough school myself. I didn't see this as them being "mean", more like their natural reaction. After all, with Jeannie spilling Rodney's childhood horrors over lunch, I think just laughing it off was their way of dealing with it. I can't see either one of them causing a scene and getting into an argument with Jeannie over it, but I was a bit shocked by Teyla's reaction. I was almost waiting for her to tell them to knock it off, esp. when Rodney came in the room. I didn't think she would laugh too. I never saw her as the teasing type. It's too immature for her, IMO.


The false note for me was Jeannie McKay. After seeing her interact with her husband and especially her daughter, I just don't believe for a single instant that she would relate to virtual strangers such cruel things about her brother, no matter how upset she was with him.

Regarding Jeannie, she really bonded (and opened up with) the Atlantis team fast. IMO, I think her spilling Rodney's past was partly to make herself fit in. Her only link to these people was her brother. What else would they talk about? She's been out of the professional world for a while now, and I think she was trying to fit into an environment that she left to play Mom. She used Rodney to do that. I understand that she was also mad at him, but she seemed to want the approval of the Atlantis team. If she was only mad at Rodney, she could have simply stayed in her guest room. Instead, she actively tried to be social with his team. I think she wanted a part of what he had, and what she gave up.

watcher652
October 23rd, 2006, 09:46 AM
GateWorld has an interview with Kate Hewlett (http://www.gateworld.net/interviews/out_of_the_bottle.shtml)up. It's interesting to hear her views on the episode.

mckaychick
October 24th, 2006, 07:21 AM
GateWorld has an interview with Kate Hewlett (http://www.gateworld.net/interviews/out_of_the_bottle.shtml)up. It's interesting to hear her views on the episode.

Very intersting interview

MechaThor
December 3rd, 2006, 03:40 AM
This episode was ok. Not the best when compared to Sadeta and Phantoms.
But it was cool.

Has any one watched RED DWARF? the Uk space Comady as the whole Atlantis episode felt like a rip off of Rimmer and his alter ego Ace Rimmer!

Wonder if thye got any inspiration from it?

Alipeeps
December 3rd, 2006, 05:08 AM
Has any one watched RED DWARF? the Uk space Comady as the whole Atlantis episode felt like a rip off of Rimmer and his alter ego Ace Rimmer!

Wonder if thye got any inspiration from it?

"Smoke me a kipper, I'll be back for breakfast"? :D :lol:

I doubt they intentionally ripped off the idea from Red Dwarf - the concept of another you from a different universe being very different from you, almost the opposite in fact, is not an uncommon theme in Sci-fi - but I admit the whole Rod McKay being much cooler than Rodney McKay thing is vaguel reminiscent of Arnold and Ace Rimmer. :D

Lauriel
December 4th, 2006, 06:14 AM
This episode was ok. Not the best when compared to Sadeta and Phantoms.
But it was cool.

Has any one watched RED DWARF? the Uk space Comady as the whole Atlantis episode felt like a rip off of Rimmer and his alter ego Ace Rimmer!

Wonder if thye got any inspiration from it?
I have to admit I was reminded of Ace Rimmer too. :)

obsessed1
December 4th, 2006, 12:50 PM
"Smoke me a kipper, I'll be back for breakfast"? :D :lol:

I doubt they intentionally ripped off the idea from Red Dwarf - the concept of another you from a different universe being very different from you, almost the opposite in fact, is not an uncommon theme in Sci-fi - but I admit the whole Rod McKay being much cooler than Rodney McKay thing is vaguel reminiscent of Arnold and Ace Rimmer. :D
LOL :D

Ace rimmer :D

Trialia
December 5th, 2006, 01:42 AM
UK Sky One premiere tomorrow night at 9PM.

I loved this episode the first time I got to see it, and I'm hoping that now the rest of my family are getting to watch it, they'll like it too! :)

Also, if my father says one word to me about possibly toning down my drooling over Kate Hewlett, bad things will happen. :P

mancslad08
December 7th, 2006, 04:47 AM
Excellent episode, very very good. This years' Atlantis has had some great ones. Surprising considering the awfulness of 80% of the SG-1 ones.

McKay was actually likeable in this one oddly enough, and no where near as annoying as he usually is. The alternate McKay was also very cool. Team bonding was good, especially the last scene. FINALLY! Some proper team bonding. "Teyla fancies one of the new marines" LOL.

ZPM depletion was interesting plot twist. McKay waiting till his alter ego made it back was also nice, if a bit implausible.

Jedi_Master_Bra'tac
December 7th, 2006, 12:28 PM
This episode was really good, I espicially loved the music! Shame about the ZPM, but it's not as if they're completly cut off from earth, they's still the daedy.

Shame that the Sky One announcer was convinced that someone called MckI was gonna have trouble with his sister :(

Still not as bad as the time the sky one lady called Teal'c Teal see (she actually said C)

mancslad08
December 7th, 2006, 01:57 PM
LOL yeah Teal See was hilarious.

Still, I'm pi55ed off with Sky royally for ruining the ends of episodes every single week. Do we really care what's coming next on Sky? And for those that do, at least wait until the credits start rolling you nob. Most annoying voice ever.

Then again this has been going on for years now so I can't see how it'll change.

Trialia
December 7th, 2006, 02:42 PM
Shame that the Sky One announcer was convinced that someone called MckI was gonna have trouble with his sister :(
URGH. Yes. I yelled at the screen the third time he did it, it was just pissing me off so much. You can tell he didn't bother to even watch a clip from the show, he's just reading from a damn autocue.

PG15
December 7th, 2006, 05:50 PM
Sounds like a guy with a real thick "accent" to me.

Pitry
December 8th, 2006, 10:38 AM
LOL yeah Teal See was hilarious.

Still, I'm pi55ed off with Sky royally for ruining the ends of episodes every single week. Do we really care what's coming next on Sky? And for those that do, at least wait until the credits start rolling you nob. Most annoying voice ever.

Then again this has been going on for years now so I can't see how it'll change.

Sounds liek they've taken a leaf out of the SciFi book? :)


URGH. Yes. I yelled at the screen the third time he did it, it was just pissing me off so much. You can tell he didn't bother to even watch a clip from the show, he's just reading from a damn autocue.


Sounds like a guy with a real thick "accent" to me.

Me too, what accent does he have? I can see Scottish people doing that, not sure about a thick IRish or Welsh but maybe that, too.

Jedi_Master_Bra'tac
December 8th, 2006, 10:47 AM
Me too, what accent does he have? I can see Scottish people doing that, not sure about a thick IRish or Welsh but maybe that, too.

errr I'm not sure which region/county, but it is definitely a nothern english accent

Alipeeps
December 8th, 2006, 10:59 AM
Sounds like a guy with a real thick "accent" to me.

No, he's just "thick" in general. :mad: He tries to make little "humourous" comments about the eps he announces (like we care what he thinks!) but they never are... humourous, that is!

His mis-pronounciation was unforgiveable. He pronounced the name (attempt at phonetic spelling here) "muck-eye". Now, there is a Scottish surname spelt McKay and pronounced that way (though it's usually spelt McKie)... but if you're working as an announcer on a TV channel then I would have thought it was basic common sense, not to mention the bare minimum requirement to do your job properly, to actually know something about the show you are announcing if you intend to comment on it... and if you intend to mention a character name, then to make sure you know how to properly pronounce that name!!

Man, it really narked me... :rolleyes:

Jedi_Master_Bra'tac
December 8th, 2006, 11:04 AM
No, he's just "thick" in general. :mad: He tries to make little "humourous" comments about the eps he announces (like we care what he thinks!) but they never are... humourous, that is!

His mis-pronounciation was unforgiveable. He pronounced the name (attempt at phonetic spelling here) "muck-eye". Now, there is a Scottish surname spelt McKay and pronounced that way (though it's usually spelt McKie)... but if you're working as an announcer on a TV channel then I would have thought it was basic common sense, not to mention the bare minimum requirement to do your job properly, to actually know something about the show you are announcing if you intend to comment on it... and if you intend to mention a character name, then to make sure you know how to properly pronounce that name!!

Man, it really narked me... :rolleyes:

It'll be interesting to see if he ever does it again, I'm sure Sky One have been sent lots of death threats letters of complaint my Gaters and Gateheads alike

PG15
December 8th, 2006, 01:06 PM
I don't know...I can definately see someone with an accent pronouncing McKay as "Muck-eye". After all, it's not a big leap from the hard "a" sound and "i".

They're both vowels. :p

Pitry
December 8th, 2006, 01:08 PM
I don't know...I can definately see someone with an accent pronouncing McKay as "Muck-eye". After all, it's not a big leap from the hard "a" sound and "i".

They're both vowels. :p

Muck-Eye no. I thought iot was the Scottish pronounciation "Mckee", but if it's "Muck-Eye"... it should be on purpose.

methinks, not such an expert on British accents. :)

Alipeeps
December 8th, 2006, 01:12 PM
I don't know...I can definately see someone with an accent pronouncing McKay as "Muck-eye". After all, it's not a big leap from the hard "a" sound and "i".

They're both vowels. :p

The announcer doesn't have the kind of accent that would assume "muck-eye" from the spelling McKay - I could forgive it if he were Scottish as yes, maybe they would assume a pronunciation (though, as I said, McKie is the more common spelling for the pronunciation "muck-eye") but, even then, I would still expect a TV announcer to check things like that and make sure to get things right....

The announcer has a northern UK accent... maybe Northern Yorkshire or up toward Teeside... that kind of region I would say..?

Madeleine
December 8th, 2006, 01:14 PM
I loved this episode. As a sibling myself I recognised my nine-year-old self and my own sisters as children in the two Hewletts :p

Kate Hewlett is one of the first TV moms I've seen (as opposed to TV mums ;)) who actually looks mumsy. She is very pretty, but she didn't wear make-up and prada to play trainset with her sprog, and she had a practical busy-parent hairstyle rather than a posh 'do.

She was so convincing looking, so real-looking, that it actually encroached upon my suspension of disbelief. Weird. I'm so used to TV women looking like they've spent six hours grooming that I sat through that ep feeling that it wasn't quite right to see a person from the real world in Fantasyland/TV Land, and I kept thinking 'fancy that, they've let a normal woman be on TV!'.

PG15
December 8th, 2006, 01:25 PM
Me neither, but I've heard it pronounced like that somewhere, and it just sounds like a slight exaggeration of the various UK accents.

Alipeeps
December 8th, 2006, 01:36 PM
Me neither, but I've heard it pronounced like that somewhere, and it just sounds like a slight exaggeration of the various UK accents.

Nope. Believe me. Not an exaggeration of accent.. more a great big honking mistake! :lol: The buy obvoiusly knows nothing about the show, has never watched it and didn't bother to check any details before doing his stupid announcment.

Madeleine - ITA with your thoughts on Kate - she really did come across as a "real person" in this ep and actually looked like a busy, stay-at-home mum. And I loved that. I also loved - and this is in no way any kind of slight towards Kate cos i think she's awesome - that it was wonderful to see a "normal-sized" woman on TV. On just about every show we see nowadays, every major female character is super slim - unrealistically so. I thought Kate looked fantastic and "normal" and perfect for the character. :D

Madeleine
December 8th, 2006, 01:46 PM
Madeleine - ITA with your thoughts on Kate - she really did come across as a "real person" in this ep and actually looked like a busy, stay-at-home mum. And I loved that. I also loved - and this is in no way any kind of slight towards Kate cos i think she's awesome - that it was wonderful to see a "normal-sized" woman on TV. On just about every show we see nowadays, every major female character is super slim - unrealistically so. I thought Kate looked fantastic and "normal" and perfect for the character. :D

Yes, she's lovely looking; and she had mummy-tummy, and that's not something US TV women have, even the TV moms. It didn't stop her looking gorgeous. She looked far *more* attractive for looking real, IMO. No slight on Rachel, Tori, Amanda or anyone else, but to never have un-skinny women on TV is as weird and un-lifelike as having no curly-haired people or no one with glasses, and for a brief moment I felt a tiny bit of kinship with the people who saw Uhura in the sixties and marvelled that someone like them had actually got a speaking role :o.

Naonak
December 8th, 2006, 01:57 PM
Sky's announcers don't exactly have the best track record with pronunciation... Or, well, anything to do with Stargate. Maybe Muck-Eye is from the same show as the "Oree" and the "Ga-wow-ld".

sueKay
December 8th, 2006, 02:13 PM
On the subject of the announcer's pronunciation...he was right...we're all wrong

McKay is a Scottish name...I know literally dozens of McKays, and they all pronounce it 'Mac-I' rather than 'Mick-Ae'

Rodney's pronunciation suggests his family, while originating from Scotland have been in Canada for several generations, thus the name has become Americanised. The same thing's happened to several Scottish names, e.g Lamond/Lamont, which in Scotland rhymes with Hammond but most of the world now pronounces it La-mont. The only time this pronunciation is actually correct is in the French form of the name, though both are of the same root.

When my website had a meetup we actually discussed this, and we all agree that it should be the 'Mac-I' pronunciation.

PG15
December 8th, 2006, 02:24 PM
Ahem...sounds like I was right too. ;)

Alipeeps
December 8th, 2006, 02:32 PM
On the subject of the announcer's pronunciation...he was right...we're all wrong

McKay is a Scottish name...I know literally dozens of McKays, and they all pronounce it 'Mac-I' rather than 'Mick-Ae'

Rodney's pronunciation suggests his family, while originating from Scotland have been in Canada for several generations, thus the name has become Americanised. The same thing's happened to several Scottish names, e.g Lamond/Lamont, which in Scotland rhymes with Hammond but most of the world now pronounces it La-mont. The only time this pronunciation is actually correct is in the French form of the name, though both are of the same root.

When my website had a meetup we actually discussed this, and we all agree that it should be the 'Mac-I' pronunciation.

Nope - the announcer was definitely wrong.

Whilst there is, as i already mentioned, a Scottish surname written McKay and pronounced "muck-eye"/Mac-I, the fact remains that the character's name in SGA is pronounced Muh-kay and it is wrong to pronounce it otherwise.

I have a similar gripe with my maiden name which is Davies and I've had numerous English people mis-pronounce it as Day-veez when it should be day-viss. The argument that there are people out there whose surname is spelt Davies and who pronounce it Day-veez (though frankly, if there are I have never met a single one - everyone I know with that surname pronounces it day-viss) does not change the fact that to pronounce my maiden name as day-veez is incorrect.

What the announcer did is equivalent to his announcing a film starring Ralph Fiennes and prouncing his first name as Ralph instead of "rafe" - it's incorrect and disrespectful and I would think it an integral part of his job to ensure that he knows enough about what he is talking about to pronounce proper nouns properly - just as e.g. traffic announcers on the radio are expected to be able to pronounce place names properly when giving traffic reports.

Madeleine
December 8th, 2006, 02:44 PM
Er, Alipeeps, you seem to be missing an important point. Stargate Atlantis is SF. As anyone in TVland can tell you, that means that its viewers are undiscerning and unimportant, and it's all just Made Up Stuff so there's no Getting It Wrong cos nothing in it is right anyway.

Sheesh, anyone would think you never got the memo.

Do I sound bitter? I'm aiming for Cynical, not Bitter. But I could reel off a loooong list of instances of the UK media portraying us all as anoraks, and continuity announcers are certainly among the culprits. :p

Alipeeps
December 8th, 2006, 03:01 PM
Er, Alipeeps, you seem to be missing an important point. Stargate Atlantis is SF. As anyone in TVland can tell you, that means that its viewers are undiscerning and unimportant, and it's all just Made Up Stuff so there's no Getting It Wrong cos nothing in it is right anyway.

Sheesh, anyone would think you never got the memo.

Do I sound bitter? I'm aiming for Cynical, not Bitter. But I could reel off a loooong list of instances of the UK media portraying us all as anoraks, and continuity announcers are certainly among the culprits. :p

Ah. Of course. How foolish of me to forget that vital point. *hangs head in shame and huddles further into her anorak* :D

Trialia
December 9th, 2006, 04:38 AM
Sue -- no, he was wrong. I know that the pronunciation he used is the traditional British pronunciation of the name McKay, and it took me a while to get used to how it is with the two on SGA, but their pronunciation is different than the British way, therefore the announcer was wrong - and oh-so freaking irritating - to pronounce Rodney's name like that.

He does try to be funny, and he always falls flat. Hell, I'd rather have Zargon.

Anyway, this is a little OT, but still. Cynical, Madeleine? I don't blame you. Personally, I'm sick to the back teeth of being treated like an anorak just because I watch sci-fi.

FallenAngelII
December 9th, 2006, 04:46 AM
Never mind this post which misunderstood the argument. Run along now.

~Benjamin~
December 9th, 2006, 03:04 PM
loved this episode, i lked the terminator stance when he came through the gateway/bridge and also loved the golf with shep

Willow'sCat
December 9th, 2006, 04:21 PM
Kate Hewlett is one of the first TV moms I've seen (as opposed to TV mums ;)) who actually looks mumsy. She is very pretty, but she didn't wear make-up and prada to play trainset with her sprog, and she had a practical busy-parent hairstyle rather than a posh 'do. :p I think that is just Kate... I mean that in a really nice way. :D I don't know how much tpbt go out of there way to tell the stylist or whatever how they want the actresses to look, other then maybe costumes... I do notice most of the other guest actresses tend to look the way they look in other shows, so maybe they don't mess about with their looks too much and I am pretty sure Kate was still filming 11 Cameras at the time so it makes sense to not change her look too dramatically for one episode, and I am not sure how many actresses would cut their hair short for a one off ep of a scifi show for example... anyway, I loved that Jeannie was so normal and down to earth looking even if she was mean to Rodney. :p

On the pronunciation of McKay :cool: my surname is spelt the same as a very well known British county, but we *my family* do not pronounce it like that at all, I am only three generations removed from my British ancestry *no I am not from convict stock* :rolleyes: :p I imagine any surviving relations in Britain would go with the British pronunciation. Also I have heard some very odd pronunciations of my surname from people.

And we say McKay both ways in Australia, the expression "depending what side of the tracks you are from" is often used when we are not sure of the pronunciation.

Matt G
December 10th, 2006, 01:43 PM
OK...

1. Rodney McKay. Sometimes I want to buy him a beer. Sometimes I want to knock him out. I'm certainly not going to complain at his flaws being pointed out though - I'm more like like him than I'd like to admit so if other characters laugh and him, I'm more likely to laugh at myself.

2. One area I can't imagine me ever doing though is shutting out my sister to the extent he did. That's not just arrogance that's not far off cruel.

3. Rod was certainly an interesting way to focus the spotlight more on McKay though.

4. Why had Jeannie not seen the 'Letters from Pegasus video? Haven't a clue.

Overall, probably the best 'McKay' character ep in Atlantis so far though character eps never really blow me away.

sueKay
December 10th, 2006, 01:50 PM
Another thing about how to pronounce McKay

David Hewlett got interviewed on Australian radio, and the host pronounced McKay the Scottish way (phoenetics: Mac-I) and David didn't seem to mind or correct her

Pitry
December 10th, 2006, 02:11 PM
4. Why had Jeannie not seen the 'Letters from Pegasus video? Haven't a clue.


I wondered about that, too. Does this mean none of the families have got to see the portion recorded from them? McvKay's was just so full of gibberish the AF didn't show this small bit to Jeannie? The tape got cut off? What? :)

sueKay
December 10th, 2006, 02:26 PM
My theory?

He didn't even know that Jeannie's husband's first name was Caleb...he probably didn't know the surname Miller either.

The messages probably got ferried out for delivery to SGC airmen with the right clearance, and they probably got one that couldn't trace her.

luvmac
December 10th, 2006, 03:05 PM
After reading about another episode it got me wondering about the personal shield in this episode. Rod said that he and John flipped to see who would come try and save the day. Does that mean that the Alternate Universe had more than one personal shield or were AU John and Rod able to use the same shield?

Lauriel
December 10th, 2006, 11:31 PM
I wondered about that, too. Does this mean none of the families have got to see the portion recorded from them? McvKay's was just so full of gibberish the AF didn't show this small bit to Jeannie? The tape got cut off? What? :)

This is pure speculation as there is nothing in canon to back me up, but I imagine Rodney as being so uncomfortable with sharing his personal feelings that when they survived, he got the recording back from the SGC before it could be delivered to Jeanne. I can't imagine the SGC delivering "last testiments' before they had died, so they would have hung onto it until they confirmed that Atlantis was destroyed and the crew dead before passing the recordings on with whatever personal effects could be recovered. It would be no big deal for McKay to request his personal recording back after surviving. Again, that's just the way I see it inside my admittedly muddled head. :)

PG15
December 10th, 2006, 11:33 PM
I like that. :)

Very in-character. ;)

Willow'sCat
December 11th, 2006, 02:22 AM
Another thing about how to pronounce McKay

David Hewlett got interviewed on Australian radio, and the host pronounced McKay the Scottish way (phoenetics: Mac-I) and David didn't seem to mind or correct her
Ah, that was an example of an interviewer not doing her home work, as I said Australians do pronounce it both ways but really when it is spelt like McKay and not MacKay well that interviewer was a fraking moron maybe David is too polite or too Canadian to say anything. :p Also he may think all Australians pronounce it like that, he hadn't been here before.

I still think the LFP tape was sent to the SGC but maybe John made a copy... leaving now. :P

Alipeeps
December 11th, 2006, 03:35 AM
My theory?

He didn't even know that Jeannie's husband's first name was Caleb...he probably didn't know the surname Miller either.

The messages probably got ferried out for delivery to SGC airmen with the right clearance, and they probably got one that couldn't trace her.

That was my theory too - if you recall, in Hot Zone when he mentions his sister, he said something along the lines of, "We're not close, I don't know if you even be able to find her..." I guess maybe the military couldn't find her. We know at least some of the tapes got delivered because Ford's cousin had seen his message.

Lauriel
December 11th, 2006, 03:45 AM
That was my theory too - if you recall, in Hot Zone when he mentions his sister, he said something along the lines of, "We're not close, I don't know if you even be able to find her..." I guess maybe the military couldn't find her. We know at least some of the tapes got delivered because Ford's cousin had seen his message.

True about the first part, but I don't think they'd have any trouble finding her. They have access to birth and marraige details, whereas Rodney wouldn't look that stuff up to find her because of the emotional pain and distancing that he was going through.

Also, Ford's family would have got his message because he was MIA. I still hope they wouldn't deliver last stand messages like that, messages that are very emotionally charged and would cause distress and worry the families, unless the person was missing or dead. Again, though, this is all existing in my head. No fact at all. :o

I actually like questions like this - they're not plot holes, but they make you think beyond the stuff planted in canon for you about the characters, their lives, and the general way everything in the show works. :) :)

obsessed1
December 11th, 2006, 10:42 AM
That was my theory too - if you recall, in Hot Zone when he mentions his sister, he said something along the lines of, "We're not close, I don't know if you even be able to find her..." I guess maybe the military couldn't find her. We know at least some of the tapes got delivered because Ford's cousin had seen his message.
thats plausible. Funny but i had forgotten that they had supposedly sent these messages to their siblings. I guess its plausibe also that she received the tape, was told it was from her brother, and said 'take it back to him' because shr would rather he come and speak to her personally. She might have thought that it was her brothers tactless and lazy way to get in touch with her, an afterthought, and she thought she would make it difficult for him, hoping whoever took the message would go abck to Mckay and say 'she doesnt want it'

;)

Cory Holmes
December 13th, 2006, 06:24 PM
Do recall that McKay had his message put on at the very end, with the idea that if the wormhole had closed a few microseconds early than at least the important things had gotten to the SGC. It's entirely probably that his message didn't get through.

Orovingwen
December 15th, 2006, 05:14 PM
OMG what a great episode!

I lvoe the whole thing, often those episodes are "just fun" or "just character study" and the story get kinda lost (like Duet where the whole episode is so funny and gerat in that way but it's more PWP? like^^ or Grace Under Pressure where we got a lot of McKay on screen but not really more, not that I wouldn't like that but you can do better ;))
So we got a great mix here from fun parts to character study but also a good Plot. And the balance is just perfect. I wouldn't want it to be diffrent, it works fine.

Ok one thing I don't love that much as the rest: Carter call to fill Jeanie in. Why? couldn't Rodney do that? or somebody else on board? why has it to be Carter?

Anyway.. a bit of inside of Rodney's parents: the named him meredith? they must really have hated him. poor poor Rodney.
Just a thing I don't get: why does nobody knows that? there is a file of Rodney and there should be his birthname. My Brother also uses his second name but still in official buisness there is his full name. So why doesn't even Shep, who had to read all files as military leader or Weir, who piced the members of the expedition.

Anyway, so great scenes in this episode, I loved the scenes wth McKay in Sheps quarters, shows that they are really close and the hug in the end with his sister. so cute! This is my all time favourite scene! Just a question here.. why has Shep that video? And why didn't send Ford it? evil Ford! ;)

Also nice this lil thing like Zelenka smiles when Jeanie says "great work" to him or that handshake between Rod and Ronon or that "little one" hugs Rodney. OMG! that is so cute!

ok you see I squee about that episode by just thinking about it^^ Just love the scenes and the mix between fun, character study and go on with the story (ZPMs are depleated! a nice lile "goodie") and the actors (which means of course Kate and David here, but also David Nykl). So my fave epi I think so far.

Edit: Totally forgot the one thing that's in my head when I hear the title of this episode.
I still kinda wonder if McCabe and Mrs. Miller had any influence of this epi, you can't really say it's inspired by it but if you wanne see it you see a slight similarity. But let's say teh story is not inspired by McCabe and Mrs. Miller, but maybe the title is... anybody who knows something about that?

meredithchandler73
January 1st, 2007, 01:32 PM
I LOVED this episode. I love not being spoiled (as much as possible). I did come across a post somewhere a while back about there not being a ZPM. No specifics about when that was gonna happen, but I was *really* annoyed to read it. (I guess that if you quote a message with the spoilers opened, they are open in the quote. Grrrrrrrrr!!!!)

On the bright side:
--I knew that Sam was in the episode, but I was pleasantly surprised that it wasn't for 10 seconds. (I recall looking *so* forward to seeing Sam in Leters From Pegasus. Oy.) She gets to be the first to rib McKay about Meredith. And she mentions how McKay and his sister have this cute Canadian accent. (Awwwww.)
--I knew that we were going to meet McKay's sister (played by DH's real-life sister). I had no idea there was going to be another McKay! Rod - a "cooler" version of McKay - complete with black leather jacket.

Why didn't McKay's sister ever get his message? I agree with those that say that not being able to find her doesn't seem plausible. I think maybe it was about security clearance. As I recall, McKay's ramblings often included the mention of impending death. That may have been enough to keep his message from being delivered. The other messages were mostly hello, I miss you, I'm doing okay. They may have felt like goodbyes for some, but I don't think anyone actually said goodbye. Well, that's my theory and stickin' to it.

I thought everyone did a great job in the episode. I think someone else posted that they thought we should have seen some of the annoying Rod traits, otherwise it looks more like the team was just saying he was annoying to make Rodney feel better. I was okay with that. I totally buy that Ronan would eventually tire of someone who was nice all the time. Perhaps the key is the last scene between Rod and Rodney - where Rod is saying how lucky Rodney is to be able to say whatever he wants and not care whether people like him or not. Rod was incredibly likeable. Perhaps he goes out of his way to be liked? And the team, after a while, found Rod kinda creepy.

Hey - Rod wasn't petty, arrogant or bad with people. Think he and the Sam Carter in his universe ever hooked up? ;) Well, there were various differences in personality between the two universes. Maybe Rod wasn't as into Sam as Rodney is. Or it's one of the AU where Sam is engaged/married/pregnant.

obsessed1
January 3rd, 2007, 01:00 PM
I still think its not implausible to believe that jeannie got it but anger for her brother meant she never watched it/binned it/told them to take it back/burnt it (LOL!)

She was peeved that she hadnt heard from him since her daughter was born so she might be mad enough to have said she wouldnt watch it, obviously unaware of Rodneys perilous situation at that time.

SirixRemyxLover
January 20th, 2007, 09:34 PM
I name to rule over Atlantis: Meredith.

That is all I have to say.

borgprincess
April 30th, 2007, 10:16 PM
All right, so the requisite drama/twist was that alternate McKay was ostensibly staying in our universe. Before we go any further, I have three words: Entropic. Cascade. Failure. Oh and another three. Point of View. How could anyone seriously entertain the thought of keeping him when he can’t possibly survive? Alternates can’t co-exist! Of course, there was something in the Stargate ep with many MANY Carters where they came up with a plot contrivance to explain why they weren’t affected, [which I can't remember- anyone?] but still…it’s cheating.

I have to ask- why are they golfing into the water? They’re whacking the balls into the ocean! It's funny, but...Do they have a limitless supply?!

Oh, ‘Rod’ and Ronan, best friends. Whoever saw that coming? I feel sorry for McKay, he’s got to be feeling so insecure right now. I know how he feels, and it’s awful how your distress over the situation manifests as petulance and makes the others dislike you and prefer the ‘interloper’ more. I'd totally be all 'but they're MY friends' too, and it doesn't work when the other person's way cooler than you...ugh...this one made my heart bleed for him.

It’s so sweet how the others try to make McKay feel better by claiming they found Rod annoying and creepy! I mean, who would? But they were trying to save McKay’s pride and it was a lovely gesture on their part. This only validates two more sci-fi clichés: clones/doubles/au counterparts never last for longer than an ep or two [except for Farscape] and plans to harvest more energy always fail spectacularly. I felt so bad when Weir realized that instead of creating more energy, they ended up losing a ZPM. Damn.

I know a few people thought the team were serious in saying they found Rod annoying and preferred our McKay, but I don't know about that. He was polite,charismatic, friendly,told great jokes...

But the ending was cool. As always, in scenes without Weir, I always wish she were in them, as it rarely happens. But it was fun to have Sheppard teasing Teyla about having the hots for one of the marines, her stomping his foot and Ronan joining in the fun by saying it’s so true! I LIVE for personal interaction like that, and for an ep where I worried it would be all McKay- McKay-McKay, they did a fairly good job of not neglecting the others.

One last note- the scenes with Rod charming our team were eerily reminiscent of Irresistible. Yeah? No? I think so... ;)

Arga
June 13th, 2007, 01:53 PM
I need a favour...
can someone explain to me how the Canadian way of saying "sorry" is different from the US?
My ears failed to notice it...
Thanks! (I know it can be hard to express it in written form... but I'm curious..)

PG15
June 13th, 2007, 02:43 PM
We say it more often. ;)

Madeleine
June 14th, 2007, 10:23 PM
This explains Canadians:

http://www.azlyrics.com/lyrics/weirdalyankovic/canadianidiot.html

Lauriel
June 15th, 2007, 01:56 AM
This explains Canadians:

http://www.azlyrics.com/lyrics/weirdalyankovic/canadianidiot.html

:lol: :lol: Thankee for the link.

scirev
August 18th, 2007, 07:22 AM
The entropic cascade failure doesn't begin for several days.
It begins much later when the two universes aren't adjacent (info from the ripple effect sg1 commentary).

scirev
August 18th, 2007, 07:23 AM
This was forgotten in "Ripple Effect" too btw. :mckay:
It wasn't explained, in the episode. But an explanation was given in the dvd commentary, as I posted.

scirev
August 18th, 2007, 07:34 AM
Only thing that kinda bothered me was how they presented "Rod" .. it was kinda Ace Rimmer all over, leatherjacket and all.. (Ace Rimmer is an AU-Character from the British Comedy "Red Dwarf, if you don't know. Look it up, won't bite ya! ;)

Ah well, at least he did not do "The Fonz!" ;)

but since that rant is offtopic I would give this episode a solid laughter and a good chance for a rewatch soon ;)

I liked the episode too.
I thought he was more kind of Christopher Eccleston-ish myself.. that's the 9th Doctor from Doctor Who who does wear a leather jacket...

Oka
August 20th, 2007, 09:15 AM
My favorite Season 3 episode.

Trek_Girl42
September 22nd, 2007, 05:03 PM
Love it! Mckay + Sister + mega-science experiment + AU Mckay + golfing into an alien ocean = where can you go wrong? :D

I really liked Kate Hewlett as Jeannie, and she and David play so well off each other, and especially in the scene with Sam over the moniter. :D

Plus, the scene where Mckay hugged Jeannie and asked her how she was, made me sniffley. :o

And the team was excellent in this one- I liked seeing them all on their off-duty time, and making Mckay feel better at the end was sweet. Also really liked Shep and Mckay's conversation (Shep cleaning gold clubs with his toothbrush :P), and Mckay "insisting" that his sister hate him. Poor guy, just can't pick up on anything. I really like how Mckay had to face his own issues- and see the consequences of being so.....Mckay, in this episode.

Can't wait for Mrs. Miller to come back in season four! :D

Oh, and Meredith? Brilliant. :D

garhkal
September 29th, 2007, 03:24 PM
I am wondering if the AU mccay had stayed here a little longer he would have ha d those tremors we saw carter go through in season 3 of SG1....

Willow'sCat
September 29th, 2007, 07:31 PM
I am wondering if the AU mccay had stayed here a little longer he would have ha d those tremors we saw carter go through in season 3 of SG1....I didn't really understand all that babble about why AU McKay had to leave, I vaugley remember the eps SG-1 did with similar AU events, I mostely ignored all that, for me the show is not about the tech talk it is about the characters. ;)

I guess however to answer your question, the writers would have had to keep it within SG canon so yeah I guess Rod would have died or something bad would have happened.


Plus, the scene where Mckay hugged Jeannie and asked her how she was, made me sniffley. :oMartin Gero; on the commentaries talked about that, apparently Kate & David were against the characters hugging in the end, Martin Wood and Martin Gero had to convince them, or rather ignore their concerns. I am glad they did now. ;) It was one of the best moments on SGA, I think only that McKay scene in Sunday eclipsed it for me.


And the team was excellent in this one- I liked seeing them all on their off-duty time, and making Mckay feel better at the end was sweet. Well I still see that as lies! Dam lies! But after listening to Martin Gero I see it was the actors, acting that was off. Joe came off to me as making Sheppard a pig by his snide little look at Rachel and Ronon, and Rachel was making Teyla look like it was all a joke... if they acted better here it could have saved me a lot frustration, and anger.:cool:

Martin wrote it as a team bonding moment the actors let him down *IMHO of course* ;)

MmmmMcKAy
October 2nd, 2007, 05:32 PM
Very good episode. Rodney and his sis were terrific. Kate Hewlett does a great job.

I enjoyed the sweeter moments like the McKay/Miller hug, John showing Jeannie Rodney's recorded message, Rodney talking to John about Jeannie.

Loved the opening act as well.

Did not enjoy the McKay teasing.

Trek_Girl42
October 3rd, 2007, 03:51 PM
Just listened to the commentary on this one- it's one of Stargate's best. Martin Gero and Martin Wood should always do commentaries together. They're actually.....interesting? Yup. That's it.

MmmmMcKAy
October 3rd, 2007, 04:47 PM
I should listen to commentaries more often. Guess I'll do that when I get around to watching the episode again. I've got so much other stuff to watch that it may be a while.

Glad to hear it's a good one, though.

Trek_Girl42
October 3rd, 2007, 06:58 PM
I should listen to commentaries more often. Guess I'll do that when I get around to watching the episode again. I've got so much other stuff to watch that it may be a while.

Glad to hear it's a good one, though.
A lot of great stuff about how they filmed Rod and Rodney- I love their commentaries because they talk about both the technical and story sides, plus little tid-bits and it's all very interesting. :zelenka25:

McClance
November 11th, 2007, 08:34 PM
I vote this episode as Atlantis' funniest episode. At least, up to this point.

Love everyone's reaction when they learn Rodney's first name is really Meredith! :jack_new_anime06: And Rodney's sister's reaction to all the new stuff being thrown at her.

Colonel Edwards
November 24th, 2007, 04:45 PM
I was wondering when the altrnit Mckay appered why didn't the same thing happen to him like the alternit Carter in sg1

McClance
November 24th, 2007, 09:16 PM
Perhaps Alternate Rodney just wasn't in our Universe as long as Alternate Carter was.

SaberBlade
November 25th, 2007, 07:40 AM
When Alternate Carter came here, the bridge between both universes was cut when the mirror was turned off. When Alternate Rodney came here, the bridge connecting both universes was still active so he wouldnt have been affected.

Whether through coincidence or intent, what happened to Alternate Carter never happened to anyone else because there was always some sort of bridge between universes active.

Fenrir Foxz
November 26th, 2007, 10:55 PM
When Alternate Carter came here, the bridge between both universes was cut when the mirror was turned off. When Alternate Rodney came here, the bridge connecting both universes was still active so he wouldnt have been affected.

Whether through coincidence or intent, what happened to Alternate Carter never happened to anyone else because there was always some sort of bridge between universes active.

I never thought of it like that, thanks...

EarthandBeyond
December 26th, 2007, 05:46 AM
Really nice episode!

Also cant stop on woundering, how many Alternate Universes have been destroyed in a process of making this episode?

McClance
December 27th, 2007, 10:57 PM
Really nice episode!

Also cant stop on woundering, how many Alternate Universes have been destroyed in a process of making this episode?

As Peter DeLuise might say: 'No Alternate Universes were injured in the making of this episode.' :D

Dumper
February 2nd, 2008, 01:36 PM
I need help with something that's niggling at me, the alternate McKay said he got to our universe by using an Ancient shield device to protect him, the same type as our McKay used in season 1. But our McKay could not remove the device until the power ran out.

So i'm taking into account that the shield device just happened to run out of power once he reached our universe as we didn't see him having any problems.

But then how did he get back to his own universe? Did he have a second shield device?

Toast King
February 2nd, 2008, 03:45 PM
No the sheild device didn't fall off McKay when it ran out of power...well it did the second time. The first time he willed it off when he didn't want to die of hunger. Which stands to reason that the alternate McKay did the same thing and used the shield device again when he returned home.

Dumper
February 2nd, 2008, 03:53 PM
No the sheild device didn't fall off McKay when it ran out of power...well it did the second time. The first time he willed it off when he didn't want to die of hunger. Which stands to reason that the alternate McKay did the same thing and used the shield device again when he returned home.


Ah yes, i had forgotten about the first time when it fell off. Thanks for the reminder.

SG1Poz
February 20th, 2008, 03:39 PM
Attention David Hewlett fans!

Both David and Kate Hewlett will be guests at the "Shore Leave" convention, July 11-13th 2008 here in Hunt Valley (Just a bit north of Baltimore) Maryland!
Come and see the sibling rivalry in person!
For more information visit the Shore Leave thread here, http://forum.gateworld.net/showthread.php?t=45614&page=13

and or the Shore Leave website: www.shoreleave.com (http://www.shoreleave.com/)

Sexeh_steph
May 25th, 2008, 07:12 AM
its been a while since i saw this episode but why was rodney so 'cool' in our universe???

Sp!der
July 14th, 2008, 10:25 AM
one of the funniest eps in season 3 i think...lol Meredith...
^^ how the crew made fun of him... and sam..go sam go sam :sam:
why don't we see other sg 1 personal when there are sga personal in the sgc?...wow what a stupid sentence.sorry for that. :jack:
loved it. absolutley loved it.

gateship15
August 18th, 2008, 02:22 AM
this was a great episode i loved that rodneys real name is Meredith but i think i found a mistake in this episode because as we saw in stargate that a parallel and original person can't stay in the same world for to long or the parallel person starts to die may someone explane why this didn't happen this time

Infinatus
August 25th, 2008, 11:22 AM
In SG-1 season 9's Ripple Effect dozens of alternate SG-1s were in the SGC yet there also wasn't entropic cascade failure. Dr. Lee theorized that this could be because the universes these alternate teams were from was further away than the one from Point of View. Personally I just think entropic cascade failure was a poorly conceived plot device to force SG-1 into the alternate universe to face Apophis.

gateship15
August 26th, 2008, 01:48 AM
thanks for explaning it to me but do u think this happend in this episode

Infinatus
August 26th, 2008, 03:54 PM
I don't know. One can only assume. :)

Starsaber
August 27th, 2008, 06:11 PM
I was wondering why they didn't have Rod mention Ford, but I just realized that he could still be on Rod's Atlantis. Rod had no way of knowing if Ford was ever on our Atlantis and no one on our side to compare him to.

gateship15
August 28th, 2008, 01:52 AM
thats true or he may not have one it is possible that ford didn't join in his universe

Anda
September 20th, 2008, 03:00 AM
i like when mackay sais to carter that he doesn't speak to his sister for four years,and whwn carter and the rest of the team finds out that mackais complet names is rodney mackay meridith

Anda
September 20th, 2008, 03:01 AM
:mckayanime18:

gateship15
September 23rd, 2008, 02:38 AM
wasn't it Meridith Rodney McKay but still when they find out his real name is very funny i could watch it over and over again

Orion25
October 4th, 2008, 04:16 AM
Nice episode. A down time episode for the team. I couldn't help but giggle when McKay introduced Jeannie to Sheppard and the fact that the colonel didn't have a chance for a witty comeback also made me chuckle. I was tearing out my hair, because no they don't have a ZPM. This brings over the impending doom to the next episodes as the team search for a new power source.

I liked the ending where McKay's video letter was finally shared to Jeannie. With all of McKay's bluster, he has a place for her.

Lythisrose
December 3rd, 2008, 09:58 AM
There are some stills from this episode up at:
http://andreas-ri.livejournal.com/101462.html#cutid1
they are usually up for a short time before becoming "friends-only"

http://i259.photobucket.com/albums/hh315/lythiasrose/stargate/Rodney/SGA308-0008andreas.jpg

gateship15
December 6th, 2008, 07:06 PM
this episode is one of the funniest i just love mckay and his sisters relationship and the fact that he gets all mushy when he thinks hes going to die. altho i like any episode with mckay in it.

kache
December 26th, 2008, 07:47 AM
Yet another possibility to use the city at full power fads away, with all the energy of the ZPM.
**** the writers! :mckay:

gateship15
January 1st, 2009, 04:24 PM
yea well rodney had to send himself back and had to make sure the other rodney was safe

ellabooray
January 2nd, 2009, 08:35 PM
I really liked this episode
the best bit was the rodney - jeanie realationship
I felt the rest was a bit of a filller
i hope they give up the energy generation idea its never going to work
The extra rodney was a bit crazy but hey, rodney is cool
the zpm was disapointing BUT
At least they found one soon after

i enjoyed it muchly
SGA just keeps getting better

: )

gateship15
January 5th, 2009, 10:56 PM
lol i totally agree

fumblesmcstupid
January 6th, 2009, 11:17 PM
I'm not a big fan of Jeanie! I really HATE the scene in which all of them are making fun of Rodney! How HUMILIATING to have you sister tell your so called FRIENDS you wet the bed!

This is one episode I DISLIKE! Yah Rodney can be a jerk, but Jeanie took pleasure in taunting and embarrassing Rodney! (yes I do have a sibling) yes you can be mean to eachother, but this was cruel!

gateship15
January 7th, 2009, 12:52 AM
i do agree but it is as u said his so called friends that annoyed me if they were really his friend they wouldn't make fun of him but they did so what does it make them

Calluna
January 7th, 2009, 02:55 PM
I'm not a big fan of Jeanie! I really HATE the scene in which all of them are making fun of Rodney! How HUMILIATING to have you sister tell your so called FRIENDS you wet the bed!

This is one episode I DISLIKE! Yah Rodney can be a jerk, but Jeanie took pleasure in taunting and embarrassing Rodney! (yes I do have a sibling) yes you can be mean to eachother, but this was cruel!


I didn't mind it so much. Yes it was humiliating for him but in exactly the same way he humilates and belittles every single other member of the team whenever he can. ghe was even doing it in that ep to Jeannie, belittling her choice to have her child and be a happy Mom/wife. Maybe I'm just remembering the many "harmless" times my older brothers and I told each others' friends about hugely embarrasing stuff and it never premantently scared us.

Whilst it's not perfect this is still one of my favourites eps of the entire series. I loved that she finally got to see evidence that her ******* brother loved her beyond anything else, despite the fact that Rod was what she secretly wanted him to be like all the time. Plus it was a call back to one of my other favourite eps LFP. And the fact that it was Kate Hewlett play Jeannie gave it that extra special touch.

Dwparsnip
January 7th, 2009, 07:43 PM
I'm not a big fan of Jeanie! I really HATE the scene in which all of them are making fun of Rodney! How HUMILIATING to have you sister tell your so called FRIENDS you wet the bed!

This is one episode I DISLIKE! Yah Rodney can be a jerk, but Jeanie took pleasure in taunting and embarrassing Rodney! (yes I do have a sibling) yes you can be mean to eachother, but this was cruel!

I think it would have been different if she had been telling anyone other than his friends.

I take great delight in embarrassing my younger sister to her friends, and she enjoys doing the same to me.

if your sibling can't roast you with your friends, what's the point?

gateship15
January 7th, 2009, 11:15 PM
maybe i never had that relationship with my sister so maybe thats why this is strange.

ellabooray
January 7th, 2009, 11:24 PM
I don't think the humiliation scared Rodney, He's Tough , Life goes on
Even if his team was laughing at him they all love him (see Tao of Rodney)

:)

gateship15
January 9th, 2009, 11:36 PM
i agree with that

Dwparsnip
January 10th, 2009, 09:34 AM
I don't think the humiliation scared Rodney, He's Tough , Life goes on
Even if his team was laughing at him they all love him (see Tao of Rodney)

:)

And that's the beauty of the team.

ellabooray
January 10th, 2009, 08:42 PM
yeah, sad to see them go

gateship15
January 11th, 2009, 11:06 PM
i think Rodney always knew they cared for him thats why u start to see him change and even when his scared he does anything to protect his team i think thats why through this episode no matter how much i thought the other Rodney was great i always liked our Rodney the best because u saw him change and altho he can still be a smarty pants and over dramatic he has became a brave and self sacrificing (when he needs to be) person

Butlersgate
March 7th, 2009, 05:46 AM
i love it when the alternate Mckay says "and my Ronon is ... well, actually those two are pretty similar."

another depleted ZPM

gateship15
March 7th, 2009, 07:39 PM
lol i agree i love that bit to i like that Rodney thought that he would be fired for depleting it. i also like Shepperd showing Rodney's sister the tape Rodney spoke on in one of the other episodes (did anyone here know they used the David Hewlett's real sister to play Rodney sister in any episode his sister was in?)

Jumper_One
March 31st, 2009, 05:49 PM
Finally, sometime last week, some website put together a list of their favorite episode titles. Alas, Stargate failed to make the list. To rectify that oversight, I’ve decided to put together a list of My Top 10 Favorite Stargate Titles:

**snip**

5) McKay and Mrs. Miller: One the one hand, McCabe and Mrs. Miller is the name of an old Robert Altman western. On the other hand, we had a story involving the character of McKay and his little sister. A bit of a stretch unless… “Hey, maybe Miller is her married name!”Marty G. suggested in a stroke of genius.
http://josephmallozzi.wordpress.com/2009/03/31/march-31-2009-my-five-second-stint-as-a-camera-operator-the-kino-revealed-and-my-top-10-favorite-stargate-episode-titles/

major davis
May 15th, 2009, 01:56 PM
It was a fun episode. Different from the norm. Quite fresh and enjoyable.

8/10

gateship15
November 24th, 2009, 05:36 PM
i really love this episode i must watch it again. i just like the brother sister relationship in this episode because its a relationship that can happen so easily

Sp!der
December 23rd, 2009, 08:18 AM
yepp, this was a really funny episode! just loved it... man i forgot how many highlights season three had in its pocket... well done!

gateship15
December 23rd, 2009, 09:42 PM
lol fantastic episode

CraigMacD.
March 3rd, 2010, 08:17 AM
This is by far my favorite episode of season 3 and may in fact be my favorite episode of the series.

First of all, an amazing performance by Kate Hewlett that brought Jeannie to life. This was a character we had heard about a couple of times before so the anticipation was there to see how this character would be portrayed. I think she was fantastic in that she was almost the complete opposite of Rodney and you can see why the relationship became so strained.

Also, the fact that Jeannie was so amazed at the incredible adventure she embarked on was a lot of fun to see, from her first time travelling through hyperspace to meeting her first Asgard.

Plus, it was fun getting to see the alternate universe McKay and how much "cooler" he was than our Rodney.

gateship15
March 5th, 2010, 11:43 PM
i agree with all u have said. i like the cooler Mckay but if i had to chose i would still chose the original i don't know why but i always liked him and i like seeing him change grow up and become braver the other one just got on my nerves

ktebid
March 10th, 2010, 12:19 AM
I enjoyed this episode. I loved seeing the relationship between Rodney & Jeanie, and how the team related to the AU McKay.

gateship15
March 10th, 2010, 10:33 PM
i agree with you

es!
March 12th, 2010, 10:42 AM
Hahaha McKay is so deliciously annoying! Love how he checked out Carter's bum right after his arrival on Earth :D

gateship15
March 13th, 2010, 01:17 AM
lol agree with you there he is just a great character well played

albatross
March 31st, 2010, 03:38 PM
Did anyone else half expect other-universe McKay to say as he was leaving, "Smoke me a kipper, I'll be back for breakfast"?

gateship15
April 2nd, 2010, 01:09 AM
lol nope

katjoy
April 2nd, 2010, 02:10 AM
this is my fave sga ep! and not just because sam is in it with some adorablly funny lines... i think jeannie is awesome and love all the eps she is in...

the brother/sister dynamic between mckay and jeannie is great... i love how she puts him in his place... id love to see and david and kate panel one day, im sure it would be epic...

these are my fave parts of the ep, so funny:

Jeannie: What have you got yourself involved in here, Meredith?
Carter: Meredith?
McKay: Err... long story.
Jeannie: It's his name.
Carter: Your name is Meredith McKay?
McKay: Meredith Rodney McKay, yes, but I prefer to go by Rodney. (to Jeannie) Stick to the point here, look out the window, much more interesting than my name.
Carter: Your name is Meredith?


McKay & Jeannie: Sorry.
(Sam smirking)
McKay: What?
Carter: Well, it's just that you both said 'sorry' in that cute little Canadian way and I… Sorry. Touch base when you get back to Atlantis.

gateship15
April 2nd, 2010, 09:48 PM
lol thats my fave part to its the best i couldn't get over the name at first i was laughing so hard when i heard it

albatross
April 3rd, 2010, 08:20 AM
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ace_Rimmer#Ace_Rimmer

... maybe you have to be british.

Martina Magnus
July 13th, 2010, 06:33 AM
This is one of my fav ... :D

mrscopterdoc
September 3rd, 2010, 08:07 PM
I love this episode even though there are 2 Rodneys :P I love Jeannie, and her face when she first sees Hermiiod is priceless.

Kenton-Atlantis
October 22nd, 2010, 11:35 AM
This is one of my favourite episodes .. when all the haters of McKay tell me they dont like Him i try to lean towards this episode..... i love when She says to him all it would took was one call a year to say " Hey how are you .. are you ok are ya happy .. thats all it woulda needed " And then at the end he goes and hugs her and says those things !! im a guy and i swear it made my eyes water hahaha honestly its a great episode. the fact that there really brother and sister aswell shows how well they act together !!

maneth
January 17th, 2011, 11:02 AM
By far my favorite Rodney ep! Loved the verbal sparring between the two.

Blizzah
May 16th, 2011, 08:10 PM
I really like the MacKay episodes, he is one of the most entertaining characters. This episode was very different from what I was expecting and it delivered a great story. The alter ego story line has been done many times but it was done well and I think Rodney was the best character to have a double. Like many others I am excited to see what happens without a zpm.

Lunaeclipse
January 12th, 2012, 02:03 PM
lol for the 'did you start it?' question.

Platschu
February 13th, 2012, 02:44 PM
JEANIE: Holy cow! That can’t be good for you.

SHEPPARD: Nothing to worry about. I’ve done it dozens of times.
(He offers his hand to her as she turns around to face him. They shake hands as he smiles at her.)
John Sheppard.

McKAY: Yeah. She’s married, and she’s my sister.

SHEPPARD: I’m just saying hi.

McKAY: Yeah. No, I know exactly what you’re doing. I’ve seen that look before ... Kirk.

AlexanderD
February 14th, 2012, 04:04 AM
This really was a great episode.

LT. COL. John Sheppard
February 14th, 2012, 04:06 AM
Carter the way Canadians say sorry lol!

Inquisitor
February 14th, 2012, 05:47 AM
Carter the way Canadians say sorry lol!

I've always found this line funny considering that Tapping grew up in Canada.

SamanthaJenniferChloe
April 26th, 2012, 03:45 AM
Hello! :cool:

I really thought that this episode was neat. I liked the interplay between Jennie and McKay.

I thought how Jennie came up with her proof while sitting with her daughter was interesting.

I liked how McKay had himself and Jennie beamed to the ship. Jennie was of course was very surprised.

I could not help but wonder what Weir thought when she saw that one of her statues was missing. I thought it was great how McKay wanted to give Jennie's little girl a gift. I really like how McKay told Jennie goodbye.

Lythisrose
August 9th, 2012, 10:00 PM
Joe Mallozzi's Blog entry (http://josephmallozzi.wordpress.com/2012/08/09/august-9-2012-days-of-stargate-atlantis-past-mckay-and-mrs-miller-what-might-have-been-moments/):

MCKAY AND MRS. MILLER (308)

Back in season one’s Letters from Pegasus, McKay makes mention of a sister. In truth, in the script, he makes mention of a brother but David requested the gender change since he had a sister who happened to be an actress and, should a future episode call for an appearance by Rodney’s fictional sister… Well, as it turned out, two seasons later, we were looking to cast Rodney’s sister Jeanie and David’s sister, Kate, ended up auditioning for the role. And nailing it.

Probably this episode’s most shocking revelation is the fact that Rodney’s real name is Meredith. Seriously. What sane parent would name their son Meredith? The name Rodney, which caused much consternation among the writers when we first floated the idea of transferring the McKay character over from SG-1 (“His first name is what? Rodney? Can we change it?”), suddenly doesn’t seem so bad.

Among the interesting tidbits that Rod reveals about his alternate universe is the fact that Jeanie has three kids -not just one – named Madison, Bradley, and Robbie. Coincidentally, Bradley Wright and Robbie Cooper were the show’s creators and show runners.

One of the more amusing elements of this episode is the introduction of the AU Rodney McKay, Rod, who ends up charming Jeanie and the team while, simultaneously, annoying the hell out of our Rodney. I’ve always loved AU episodes for their ability to offer us a glimpse of what might have been. Ripple Effect, The Road Not Taken, Vegas – all offered interesting variations on our characters, the result of different circumstances, different decisions. I suppose I enjoy these glimpses because they make me think of the different paths I could have taken over the course of my life and how those alternate decisions may have played out, how the repercussions of those choices would have shaped a different me.

Lieutenant Sparrow
August 10th, 2012, 07:55 AM
Great ep.

David and Kate look so alike. Can easily see the family resemblance. Kate is better looking though haha.

Sam! So good to see her. Still wears her jeans up to her breasts I see. She was pretty funny in this ep. Especially teasing McKay about his real name haha.

Speaking of his real name. What ever made the writers come up with that haha.

Two McKays. That would be weird. I much prefer our McKay though.

Really nice ending. Gotta admit I nearly got teary when McKay hugged his sis and said those things.

The team really look like a family now.

NowIWillDestroyAbydos
August 10th, 2012, 04:59 PM
Great episode, 3rd best this season (behind Sateda and Progeny). Good ep for McKay, along with his goofy first name. I thought I saw a Kull Warrior in the trailer for next week's episode, looks interesting
I agree. I loved Sam's reaction to finding out Rodney's real name.

Monday, a discontinued Wraith experiment. How will McKay screw it up.

Krisz
August 12th, 2012, 09:11 AM
this is my fave sga ep! and not just because sam is in it with some adorablly funny lines... i think jeannie is awesome and love all the eps she is in...

the brother/sister dynamic between mckay and jeannie is great... i love how she puts him in his place... id love to see and david and kate panel one day, im sure it would be epic...

these are my fave parts of the ep, so funny:

Jeannie: What have you got yourself involved in here, Meredith?
Carter: Meredith?
McKay: Err... long story.
Jeannie: It's his name.
Carter: Your name is Meredith McKay?
McKay: Meredith Rodney McKay, yes, but I prefer to go by Rodney. (to Jeannie) Stick to the point here, look out the window, much more interesting than my name.
Carter: Your name is Meredith?


McKay & Jeannie: Sorry.
(Sam smirking)
McKay: What?
Carter: Well, it's just that you both said 'sorry' in that cute little Canadian way and I… Sorry. Touch base when you get back to Atlantis.

Pretty much the same reasons I like this episode too.

The alternate Rodney is great, being the opposite of 'our' Rodney and his feeling more threatened and insecure by 'himself' was funny. I liked the nice twist at the end though, how his team mates liked him more than the 'annoying' alternate. It's funny what a person can end up imagining.

As for a panel with them in.....From the Creation Vancouver Con April 2012.

35173

KATE & DAVID HEWLETT

Kate came on stage alone for the first part of the panel. First thing she did was get the audience to pose for a photo!

She began by telling of her journey to Vancouver from Toronto noting that the taxi driver she had to the airport in Toronto had a bottle of pills on the seat next to him! On the plane a guy in an airline pilot’s uniform sits down next to her and she couldn’t help commenting, “shouldn’t you be up there” pointing to the cockpit. He ignored her.

She also commented that she loved the fact that the convention hotel was on McKay Avenue.

She also wanted to put right some internet misconceptions, mainly the question of ‘What is it like being married to David?”

She’s nine years younger than David…. “He’s immature, but look at his hairline and belly, he is older, just look at him!”

Q. What is your favourite character you have played?

A. Jeannie Miller.

Q. Have you got a really good sibling story where you embarrassed David?

A. “He does it to himself! He eats non-stop, if he doesn’t he turns into McKay!”

Q. In a ‘Dog’s Breakfast’ How much fun was it to kiss Paul McGillion?

A. It was her first ever on screen kiss and was nervous as it was her brother directing. She jokingly said that she did a ‘safe kiss’ not like David and Paul who were “all tongue”!

Q. How did you get into acting?

A. In grade 5 she did a “10 minute version of ‘Sound of Music’. She did plays throughout school and went to the National Theatre School.

Q. Why would you choose to work with your brother?

A. ‘A Dog’s Breakfast’ was the first time they really worked together on screen. Before that David had left acting to start a web design company, he’d hired her to write music for the web design thing he was doing but they argued and he fired her!

Their parents were mystified that they were working together!

Q. In SGA what did you think about Rodney blowing up a solar system?

A. He was the kind of kid that took things apart but couldn’t put them back together!

Q. (Asked by Dan Payne from backstage) Wondered if you dated outside the industry?!

A. (about Dan Payne) “He’s so handsome, can put him in a sandwich!”

Q. What were your best and worst moments when working on ‘A Dog’s Breakfast’?

A. Favourite was the day Chris Judge came on set. She’d never met him before and was expecting the same guy she’d seen on SG-1! He’s a very versatile actor!

Least favourite- With a feigned look of horror….“David naked, I still have nightmares!”

There was a scene they filmed where she was holding a fish over David’s face. She thought it was frozen but it turned out it was “not quite dead”. It ended up being..”the worst day of my life when the fish barfed into David’s mouth!”


Q. What was it like working with the cast of SGA?

A. “Hermiod was so much better than my brother!” She added that Joe Flannigan really hated Hermiod!

Q. What was it like writing with David Gero?

A. She was writing for ‘LA Complex’ with him, a series about women in their 30’s. She looks whistful as she recalls this and then adds “I wish David Gero was my brother.” Then laughs.

Q. Did you watch Stargate before David was on it?

A. She had no experience of Sci Fi, she had never watched Stargate.

At this point David joined her on stage.

Q. (For David) What was your favourite SGA episode?

A. ‘Grace Under Pressure’ locked in a puddle jumper with Amanda Tapping.

Kate added cheekily that she liked to see David in difficult situations with women not attracted to him!

As for favourite characters, for Kate, “I like to look at Jason, but favourite character is McKay, but I don’t like looking at him!”

Q. On the commentary for McKay and Mrs Miller you say you didn’t want your sister to go into acting.

A. “Because she can’t act!” he said with a cheeky grin

He did feel that it was a difficult job so he thought it wouldn’t be really something for Kate. He loves acting but being an actor is a struggle, he was giving tough love as the older brother by being blunt and honest. “Important to know what you’re up against.”

Q. In ‘The Shrine’ was it hard to get the emotion?

A. Kate- “I cried my face off when I read the script, it was so sad.” David said Brad Wright wrote it and he was good with McKay’s ‘voice’, it was good emotional stuff from the writer, making it great to act.

Q. Kate’s character is smarter on SGA, in real life who is smarter?

A. Kate- We are each smart in our own way. David feigns confusion, “We suck!”

On that note the panel ended, all too quickly. It was a joy to see them together, what you saw on screen was pretty much what you get in real life. A great sense of sibling love and respect shone through, making the tongue in cheek sarcastic jibes at the others’ expense more entertaining.

sueKay
August 12th, 2012, 10:05 AM
This is one of my all-time favourite episodes, and I wish we'd seen more of Jeannie...she's a great character :)

I've always reckoned that the reason Rodney was so awful to her when she decided to be a stay-at-home mother, is because Rodney started working at Area 51 in the year 2000, and Madison was probably born in 2002. I'm thinking that Rodney was ready to try and get Jeannie involved with the Stargate programme when she got pregnant. Rodney also knows just how brilliant Jeannie is and knew what a difference she could make.

It doesn't excuse him, but it does give an explanation for what happened, because I've got a funny feeling that they got along well prior to Jeannie settling down.

jelgate
August 17th, 2012, 10:13 PM
McKay is so overused. Some of these characters are wallpaper with little to no development and you feel the need to expand on his familiy. It just seems uncessary and points to the major holes and problems of SGA. The episode itself isn't bad but I take offense of the love fest the writers have with McKay. The epiosde itself paints a nice picture of McKay's emotional immaturaity of who poorly he treated Jeannie by showing how different Rod is. The whole story of the technobabble bridge serves a plot to faculitate that journey for McKay and it feels like it serves as a backdoor to explore McKay's issues and at the same to force a climax of the story to get Rod back and end the character interaction. The ending is pretty interesting but a little forced in how McKay tries to show affection for his sister. The most disappointing thing of all is that we drain the ZPM. I like that idea to solve the technobabble but I did not like how we quickly got another ZPM

Matt G
August 18th, 2012, 03:03 PM
Midweek...another ep of Atlantis...

1. There's actually quite a lot of stuff in this ep...first Jeannie getting introd and then Rod!

2. Interesting theory about Rodney getting ready to get Jeannie involved in the SG problem when Madison came along, it's obvious that he certainly respected her previously.

3. Would Rod have seriously nitpicked Athosian history from another reality?

Certainly a fun ep.

Jae'a
September 2nd, 2012, 06:48 AM
My LiveJournal post (http://jo-r-lee.livejournal.com/69488.html)
Smoke me a Wraith, I'll be back for breakfast! :P (I bet I'm far from the first to make a Red Dwarf reference about this ep though!)
I think I'll miss Rod. Couldn't they have done a swap? :lol:

Matt G
September 3rd, 2012, 03:55 AM
My LiveJournal post (http://jo-r-lee.livejournal.com/69488.html)
Smoke me a Wraith, I'll be back for breakfast!

Warped image alert!

Gatetraveler13
September 3rd, 2012, 07:33 AM
I love this ep. They are so cute when they fight :):mckayanime09:

Cluas
February 18th, 2013, 02:29 AM
Yes, a good episode, would like to see more of Jeannie

:mckayanime07:

Destiny!
February 18th, 2013, 04:17 AM
now are they real brother and sister because in there real last names are the same

Bagpuss
February 18th, 2013, 04:22 AM
Yes.:)

Cluas
February 18th, 2013, 09:35 AM
now are they real brother and sister because in there real last names are the same

Thanks. I didn't know that. Both really good actors

:mckayanime01:

garhkal
February 19th, 2013, 03:50 PM
Makes me wonder how many other real life bro/sis combo's have acted AS in show bro/sis?

Baron Of Hell
August 27th, 2013, 11:14 AM
Really liked this episode. I think they were saying mean things about Rod to make Mckay feel better at the end.

The episode was very low key but I enjoyed it just the same. I hate most kid actors but the kid they had did a good job.

Lunaeclipse
August 28th, 2013, 01:17 PM
...One of the things that stood out about this episode to me is how it's one of the only eps where you see Rodney a little less overconfident than usual...

Kenton-Atlantis
January 11th, 2014, 01:38 AM
I always watch this episode now and then It really is in my top 3 favourite episodes what a great story and Rodney is more serious in it. Also its really funny how cocky Rod is

Lunaeclipse
January 14th, 2014, 09:20 PM
Makes me wonder how many other real life bro/sis combo's have acted AS in show bro/sis?

What if there was a spin off and the McKay's were in charge of a facility?...

garhkal
January 17th, 2014, 01:13 PM
That would be funny.. though it made me wonder why there was no mention of Ms Miller in Vegas..

Lunaeclipse
January 18th, 2014, 05:11 PM
That would be funny.. though it made me wonder why there was no mention of Ms Miller in Vegas..

That actually hadn't occurred to me... that ep had me in too much suspense and stuff... a re-watch may be in order. :)

Lythisrose
January 18th, 2014, 09:49 PM
That would be funny.. though it made me wonder why there was no mention of Ms Miller in Vegas..
It's a different AU. Shep was some sort of obnoxious braniac in Rod's universe.

garhkal
January 21st, 2014, 12:27 PM
True, but Jeenie should have been still around.

Lythisrose
January 21st, 2014, 07:27 PM
True, but Jeenie should have been still around.
I don't know, the McKay in Vegas seemed even more (to me anyway) like he'd be willing to cut bonds with his family.

mrscopterdoc
August 20th, 2014, 06:01 PM
I love Jeannie, wish we had seen even more of her.

garhkal
August 22nd, 2014, 04:01 PM
How many more eps with her in do you wish? She had at least 3 eps in S4 and 2 in S5 iirc.

Davey
September 7th, 2018, 10:30 AM
I liked the story but couldn't understand any of the Stargate "science"...…...just as I can't in most episodes of SGA and SG1.

Xaeden
September 15th, 2018, 03:39 PM
It's actually not that complicated, Davey. Just try to remember that regardless of what they're talking about, it's just a fancy way of saying that magnets make the fantastical technology possible.

If that doesn't work, I recommend trying to recreate a Simpsons episode in your head. Works every time. :jack: