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trinity1013
August 13th, 2004, 06:42 AM
ibwolf's boasting ;) about his (vast) DVD collection in another thread basically made me ask myself if you can recognize a person as being either male or female by what s/he likes to watch. Which again raised the question of whether there are as few sci-fi loving women out there as the stereotype suggests.

I'd say the action/adventure genre is still mostly male-dominated. And then there's the love story thing at the other end. Where's sci-fi?

My personal experience suggests that the majority of sci-fi fans are men as well (as I am someone who's punished with female friends who are all impersonations of the cliché - with, needless to say, me being the only exception).

So, I'm wondering if they're people out there who don't fit the cliché concerning "gender-specific" genres and have similar experience. Like when I told my female friends that I was into "Stargate", they were all like "Oh, you dig that MacGyver guy, don't you?". I mean, how can you assume that a woman will just watch sci-fi if there's a hot male character in it (turn it around for men: hot female character in a chick flick)? So, have you ever been given strange looks because your favored type of entertainment is not the same as many others' of your gender?

I'd be interested in opinions of both women and men. I hope I haven't been (all too ;)) sexist.

Pdixie
August 13th, 2004, 06:47 AM
In my experience men who enjoy science fiction are looked down upon by others, which is why I'm in the closet about my love of scifi to everyone aside from my friends. Personally I don't see the difference between someone who gets excited about a new episode of Stargate and someone who gets excited over a stupid game (football).

trinity1013
August 13th, 2004, 07:17 AM
In my experience men who enjoy science fiction are looked down upon by others
Really? I've never experienced this. Most of my male friends are into sci-fi and they're the only ones I can talk to about it. Of course, they're - (stereo)typically - also into all the action stuff, but I've never heard that a man's looked down on for loving sci-fi. Why? It's not like you confessed your love for some sappy love movie. And even that would be okay, although really way out of the stereotype.

Posherella
August 13th, 2004, 07:20 AM
In my experience men who enjoy science fiction are looked down upon by others...

I think that has more to do with the fact that sci-fi is considered "geeky" and people immediately cut to images of Star Trek conventions and Dungeons and Dragons. I don't think that stereotype has to do with gender.

It's fairly established that the male and female brain don't work the same. Therefore, it's only logical that men are stimulated by shows that women aren't and the other way around. It's why channels like Spike TV and Oxygen exist.

I'm sure every show on TV knows its demographic and caters to each major demographic group in different ways with their shows.

Larry
August 13th, 2004, 07:29 AM
In my experience men who enjoy science fiction are looked down upon by others

As a male in my 40's, I got my "looks" when I expressed the fact that I really really enjoyed Buffy the Vampire Slayer. To the un-initiated, that was a show that should only be viewed by teenagers. I do think there are certain genre's that attract, and most definatly are marketed to certain population segments. I do think that good storytelling is universal however, and women that enjoy the "manly" genre of Science Fiction are, like many people, drawn to great storytelling that is done well the way Stargate SG-1 does.

trinity1013
August 13th, 2004, 07:30 AM
It's fairly established that the male and female brain don't work the same.
Sure, but does the fact that I am a woman and into sci-fi (just to stay PC: for a man being into love stories/whatever else you rather associate with women) mean my brain is working in a more "manly" way? Do I have to worry? ;)



I'm sure every show on TV knows its demographic and caters to each major demographic group in different ways with their shows.
So, what's the major demographic group for Stargate? Men aged 16 to 50, perhaps?



As a male in my 40's, I got my "looks" when I expressed the fact that I really really enjoyed Buffy the Vampire Slayer. To the un-initiated, that was a show that should only be viewed by teenagers.
Perhaps I should include "age" as a criterion here as well, not just gender. Feel free to do so in your replies. Actually, include any criterion you want as long as it makes you stick out of a group of more or less homogenous people and you have been treated differently because of that.

Posherella
August 13th, 2004, 07:42 AM
Sure, but does the fact that I am a woman and into sci-fi (just to stay PC: for a man being into love stories/whatever else you rather associate with women) mean my brain is working in a more "manly" way? Do I have to worry? ;)

I have absolutely no ideas what the demographics are for sci-fi or Stargate, but they must be out there. They might not be public knowledge. It might be possible though for your brain to be working in a more "manly" way, but I doubt it'd be cause for concern. Everyone's different and all. :)

There are lots of books and studies on this subject and I can't even pretend to know anything other than that the studies exist. Although I have seen a few specials on the Discover Channel. hehe.
:p

ibwolf
August 13th, 2004, 07:50 AM
Ibwolf's boasting ;) about his (vast) DVD collection...
Boasting!?! I was merely ah ... establishing the fact that I have plenty of first hand experiance with DVDs. That's my story and I'm sticking to it. (In case you are wondering (http://www.dvdaficionado.com/dvds.html?cat=1&sub=ANF&id=ibwolf))

Oh, and (not that it matters at all) "ibwolf" is always spelled with all lowercase letters.


... in another thread basically made me ask myself if you can recognize a person as being either male or female by what s/he likes to watch. Which again raised the question of whether there are as few sci-fi loving women out there as the stereotype suggests.
Well, I started reading Sci-Fi because my mother introduced me too it. She's probably a bigger SG1 fan then I am so, yeah, there are sci-fi women out there :)


I'd say the action/adventure genre is still mostly male-dominated. And then there's the love story thing at the other end. Where's sci-fi?
Sci-Fi can be either action/advanture, horror, romance, drama ... it's all a matter of setting. Most Sci-Fi films these days are action/advanture (like the new I, Robot or The Chronicles of Riddick) but that's just because action movies are the ones most likely to realize the kind of profits needed to justify the effects in a decent sci-fi.


My personal experience suggests that the majority of sci-fi fans are men as well (as I am someone who's punished with female friends who are all impersonations of the cliché - with, needless to say, me being the only exception).
Probably more men then women, yes. 'Geeks' tend to be guys. The engineering department at my university is the only department where men are still in the majority.


So, I'm wondering if they're people out there who don't fit the cliché concerning "gender-specific" genres and have similar experience. Like when I told my female friends that I was into "Stargate", they were all like "Oh, you dig that MacGyver guy, don't you?". I mean, how can you assume that a woman will just watch sci-fi if there's a hot male character in it (turn it around for men: hot female character in a chick flick)? So, have you ever been given strange looks because your favored type of entertainment is not the same as many others' of your gender?
It's never a good idea to rely too heavily on stereotypes. Sure there are more men then women who dig sci-fi. But there are also more men then women working as software engineers. That doesn't mean there are no women programmers, in fact I know several very talented ones. It's just that they don't get much attention.




In my experience men who enjoy science fiction are looked down upon by others, which is why I'm in the closet about my love of scifi to everyone aside from my friends. Personally I don't see the difference between someone who gets excited about a new episode of Stargate and someone who gets excited over a stupid game (football).
Fortunately this has never been a problem for me. Maybe it's because I'm a 'geek'. Some of my friends like sci-fi, some don't but it's never a subject for even light hearted ribbing. Maybe it's more of a cultural thing.

tera'ngan
August 13th, 2004, 07:57 AM
Yeah, I've always been a bit of a weird duck compared to all my chick friends (pun intended :D )! I've been a sci-fan fan since I was a kid. You name it, I loved it. "Space:1999," "Buck Rogers," "Battlestar Galactica," "Star Trek TOS," "Bionic Man/Woman." How many girls did you know growing up that had a Star Wars action figure collection - and played with them! My best friend in high school rated her movies by the number of kleenex she went through - drove me nuts! We did everything together . . . except watch T.V. and movies. :)
So, maybe I have a "manly" brain, too. But that wouldn't explain my hobby of quilting . . . I will have to say that I was in the minority - definitely had to have my "fan" conversations with the guys. And as for Stargate and sci-fi, good story or eye candy? Perhaps it is a little of all three ;)

-tera'ngan

trinity1013
August 13th, 2004, 08:00 AM
I have absolutely no ideas what the demographics are for sci-fi or Stargate, but they must be out there. They might not be public knowledge.
I'd be really interested in that. If anybody has an idea, enlighten us. ;)



It might be possible though for your brain to be working in a more "manly" way
I doubt that my brain works in a manly way. I'm no good at math, which is considered a male subject. And I have actual "statistics" to prove that: there are only a handful of men studying what I study (languages) and almost everybody who studies it really sucked at math in school. Which suggests to me that there are many people who are either good at the "female" thing including everything language-related or at the "male" logical, math-related stuff, but very few are both. I think it's interesting, because according to that theory, we encounter two (gender-stereotype-wise) "outsiders" on Stargate - Daniel Jackson, linguist, and Sam Carter, physicist and good at everything technical.



I doubt it'd be cause for concern.
Oh, if you knew just how bad I am at math, you wouldn't say that! ;)

Posherella
August 13th, 2004, 08:06 AM
Oh, if you knew just how bad I am at math, you wouldn't say that! ;)

My husband makes fun of me for how bad I am at math. I have huge problems adding without a calculator. I know it doesn't make me dumb - my brain just really doesn't operate on that level.

I've never heard that women are better at languages before - I'm not disputing it, I've just never heard it. If that's the case, I wonder why the majority of programmers are men then, since it's not much more than another language.

joshing123
August 13th, 2004, 08:11 AM
Yeah, I've always been a bit of a weird duck compared to all my chick friends (pun intended :D )! I've


Most of my male & female friends when I was younger thought it was weird for a female to be so into science fiction (started watching ST when I was 4). When I was younger I actually rarely brought it up. Only my family and close friends really knew how much I loved it. As an adult though, I admit straight out to being a sci-fi geek & other then an occassional initial eye roll or laugh, most people don't think twice about it, especially since they already know I'm a computer geek (I also think it's partly because to look at me, I don't fit into the stereotypical "geek" category at all).

My mother has only recently admitted a love of science fiction, although she reads/watches a lot more other genres than I do. Two sci-fi gals in one family!

trinity1013
August 13th, 2004, 08:17 AM
Oh, and (not that it matters at all) "ibwolf" is always spelled with all lowercase letters.
So is trinity1013 but people keep capitalizing it, so I thought I could do the same to you ;) (I actually thought about it before posting). But I'm doing a good job at convincing myself that people just write my username with capital "t" because I'm so important. ;) Oh, and as it rather annoys me, I'm gonna change it...



Sci-Fi can be either action/advanture, horror, romance, drama ... it's all a matter of setting. Most Sci-Fi films these days are action/advanture (like the new I, Robot or The Chronicles of Riddick) but that's just because action movies are the ones most likely to realize the kind of profits needed to justify the effects in a decent sci-fi.
So, perhaps some/many (?) people don't really enjoy the sci-fi but just the action within the sci-fi?



It's never a good idea to rely too heavily on stereotypes.
I know that. But there's also a reason that the stereotypes exist in the first place. And as someone who's basically continually ridiculed for loving sci-fi I am certainly not in favor of any stereotyping. I just wanted to know if the stereotype's justified. I can live with being one of the few sci-fi loving women and if there are really that few, I don't have a problem with not getting all that much attention.



Maybe it's more of a cultural thing.
So, yet another thing to include... gender, age, cultural/social background, huh?

trinity1013
August 13th, 2004, 08:26 AM
My husband makes fun of me for how bad I am at math.
My dad makes fun of me for how bad I am at math



I have huge problems adding without a calculator.
Thank God, I am not alone! ;)



I've never heard that women are better at languages before - I'm not disputing it, I've just never heard it.
That's very much the picture I get from my fellow students.



I wonder why the majority of programmers are men then, since it's not much more than another language.
Are you talking about computer programmers? Because, as far as I know, computer programming is all about math. I actually wanted to study computer science... that is, before I learnt that you have to do only math for one year to get started. Even if you want to become a graphic/web designer, you have to go through that, which I think is weird because I know many people who are really good at art-stuff (doing collages, websites, drawing, that kind of thing) but suck at math.

I wonder if ibwolf has to say something about that, how else would he know that

The engineering department at my university is the only department where men are still in the majority.?

aAnubiSs
August 13th, 2004, 08:31 AM
programming isn't all about math. But having a great understanding of math is a very good start.

I've programed in VB,C++,Java and I'm pretty good in math and algebra.
My friend also studied the same courses and he sucks at math, but he did ok in VB,c++,java.


While webdesign doesn't require any math, getting a job as a webdesigner 99% requires knowledge of ASP and PHP. PHP is very similar to c++ and therefore knowing math is good :)

Posherella
August 13th, 2004, 08:31 AM
Are you talking about computer programmers? Because, as far as I know, computer programming is all about math. I actually wanted to study computer science... that is, before I learnt that you have to do only math for one year to get started. Even if you want to become a graphic/web designer, you have to go through that, which I think is weird because I know many people who are really good at arts-stuff but suck at math.

I'm proficient in web design, Perl, Unix Shell scripting and PHP. Granted, not computer programming, but none of it is reliant on math - more on language skills. PHP and SQL especially are all about language and statements - so if women are better at languages, one would think there would be more women creating PHP scripts and there aren't, at least from what I can tell.

aAnubiSs
August 13th, 2004, 08:33 AM
I think there are more male programmers is because computers overall is a "male" thing.

VirtualCLD
August 13th, 2004, 08:43 AM
Are you talking about computer programmers? Because, as far as I know, computer programming is all about math. I actually wanted to study computer science... that is, before I learnt that you have to do only math for one year to get started. Even if you want to become a graphic/web designer, you have to go through that, which I think is weird because I know many people who are really good at art-stuff (doing collages, websites, drawing, that kind of thing) but suck at math.

Learning the programming language itself and designing certain things like websites and so forth does not take a great deal of understanding math. There was little math involved with my early programming courses, it was mostly about learning the language and what you can do with it and writing some relatively simple programs. You can even make a lot of complex, or complex looking programs and still not know too much math.

It's when you get into the higher level courses, aka data structures, that math really starts to help out. I know in my data sturctures course, we start talking about linked lists, hashed maps, binary trees, and so on, and then some aplications of them, then it becomes math "heavy". you start to learn about their uses and counting theory, linear algebra, numeric differential equation solving, and it can get intense, but it all depends on the direction you go. you can still write great programs without that knowledge, but if you go into programs that require these more advanced structure for mathematical intensive programs, then yes, you knowing math would be pretty important.

If you ever program in Matlab (as the name suggests) that's a mathematical intensive program, but it's designed for recording samples for testing, solving complex calculus equations, designing and simulating complex designs of various fields.

Webdesign and other programming in that realm does't require the mathematical knowledge that some of those more "extreme" programs require.

trinity1013
August 13th, 2004, 08:44 AM
I've programed in VB,C++,Java and I'm pretty good in math and algebra.My friend also studied the same courses and he sucks at math, but he did ok in VB,c++,java.
I've got a friend (male) who has always been bad at math and didn't finish his computer studies. The last time I saw him, he already did all of his courses the second time. Which indicated to me that it is somehow connected. Then again, it's not necessarily connected to the gender but I've always known more women who had problems with math.



so if women are better at languages, one would think there would be more women creating PHP scripts and there aren't, at least from what I can tell.
I could understand if they did it in their spare time, but as you have to do quite a lot of math here (at university) to become a computer programmer (or anything computer-related, basically) and do it for a living, I understand that there are not many professional female ones.

Perhaps I'm just too influenced by this book I read once, "Why Men Don't Listen and Women Can't Read Maps" ;)

trinity1013
August 13th, 2004, 08:53 AM
I think there are more male programmers is because computers overall is a "male" thing.

I wouldn't say that. Not anymore, at least. It's more of an age or interest thing. I know plenty of men who couldn't care less about computers (even younger ones, they hardly manage to write and send an e-mail). Or an opportunity thing, for that matter. I, for example, don't have internet access at home (and that's not because I'm not interested), so what use is learning how to do a website? Sure, if I had enough time, I'd play around on the computer all the time but I don't think that this is an exceptional attitude for a woman.
"Playing around" of course not meaning computer games. I am not one of the people who think playing computer games makes them computer-savvy.;)

DJFavorite
August 13th, 2004, 08:57 AM
When it comes to computer programming (my degree), it's not so much the math, but the logical thinking that you develop in the same manner as learning how to do math. You need to be able to put the program in the right order to get the correct results. Math is much the same way. Say you have a problem like this 5+3*2. If you solve it one way you get 16, another way is 11. Which is correct? Well, learning that provides you with the same knowledge you need to put computer programs together properly.


Back on topic, I think that the sci-fi target audience is Male 18-34 (read that somewhere). Many reasons that that age are the target is the 'logical' thinking of science. Typically, females in that age range are family, romance oriented (again the stereotype) and sci-fi doesn't usually hav that as a central focus.

I myself have enjoyed sci-fi since I was a child. Even today, I dream of 'going to the stars'. My childhood idol was Sally Ride. I always wanted to be her and make sci-fi into sci-fact.

aschen
August 13th, 2004, 09:00 AM
I grew up watching Star Wars and later Star Trek with my dad. It's always been a part of my life. And I'll never let it go. *sobs*

As for the whole gender thing, most scifi fans ARE male. It would seem as though that the majority (and I know there are some of you awesome girls out there) of females like scifi, are really drawn to the whole love arch behind the storyline.

Which is fine, really. It doesn't matter what your reasons are. So long as you enjoy it. :D

Posherella
August 13th, 2004, 09:00 AM
Perhaps I'm just too influenced by this book I read once, "Why Men Don't Listen and Women Can't Read Maps" ;)

That's something else I'm horrible at. I have no internal compass. Another thing my husband teases me mercilessly about.

VirtualCLD
August 13th, 2004, 09:04 AM
That's something else I'm horrible at. I have no internal compass. Another thing my husband teases me mercilessly about.
Ha! Internal compass! Who needs that when you got a magnetic compass or GPS?! And if you don't have that, there's always the sun and the North Star, Polaris. And if you're in the southern hemisphere.... well, you're pretty much scr***d. J/K, there's at least the Southern Cross.

aschen
August 13th, 2004, 09:06 AM
Ha! Internal compass! Who needs that when you got a magnetic compass or GPS?! And if you don't have that, there's always the sun and the North Star, Polaris. And if you're in the southern hemisphere.... well, you're pretty much scr***d. J/K, there's at least the Southern Cross.
You only need a GPS if you're in the middle of the woods are have so much money you can buy a car with it in it already.

VirtualCLD
August 13th, 2004, 09:10 AM
You only need a GPS if you're in the middle of the woods are have so much money you can buy a car with it in it already.
I wish I had that much money. I had the money for the GPS by itself (no car), but now that I got it, I don't have the money for it anymore. Besides, you can't take a car hiking with you (unless they actually go through with this plan to make parts of the Apalachian trail handicapped accessable). Anyway, too far off-topic. It would be interesting to have survey listing a bunch of movie collections and then try to identify if the person is male or female.

trinity1013
August 13th, 2004, 09:11 AM
It would seem as though that the majority (and I know there are some of you awesome girls out there) of females like scifi, are really drawn to the whole love arch behind the storyline.
I knew this was going to come up sooner or later. I admit, I am a shipper and I like that aspect, but I wouldn't watch the show if there'd be nothing else. And, contrary to many shippers I guess, I don't want to see S&J together in the series. I like a bit of UST every now and then as it is another way of showing us more of the characters but I neither want nor need them to focus on it. That'd be really really boring. Could go watch "The Bold and The Beautiful" just as well then. *shudder*



I have no internal compass. Another thing my husband teases me mercilessly about.
Isn't it sad that so many of those stereotypical things really apply to us?

aschen
August 13th, 2004, 09:18 AM
I knew this was going to come up sooner or later. I admit, I am a shipper and I like that aspect, but I wouldn't watch the show if there'd be nothing else. And, contrary to many shippers I guess, I don't want to see S&J together in the series. I like a bit of UST every now and then as it is another way of showing us more of the characters but I neither want nor need them to focus on it. That'd be really really boring. Could go watch "The Bold and The Beautiful" just as well then. *shudder*

Isn't it sad that so many of those stereotypical things really apply to us
Yep, yep. Leave it up to me to bring up enevitable! :) Well if those stereotypical things weren't true, then what would we have to complain about?

trinity1013
August 13th, 2004, 09:20 AM
I think that the sci-fi target audience is Male 18-34 (read that somewhere). Many reasons that that age are the target is the 'logical' thinking of science. Typically, females in that age range are family, romance oriented (again the stereotype) and sci-fi doesn't usually hav that as a central focus.


As for the whole gender thing, most scifi fans ARE male..
Okay, so why do they then incorporate a "love arch" at all? I mean, the few women who are into sci-fi could probably do without it as well and it seems (blatantly generalized) that the men are rather annoyed by it as it distracts from the actual story. So, assuming that the target audience really is male from 18-34, they have to assume that you (the men) also want a "love arc" or what?

Posherella
August 13th, 2004, 09:22 AM
Isn't it sad that so many of those stereotypical things really apply to us?

I think it's sad I can barely make it to my home from the airport without someone else in the car with me. But I don't really think the fact that these stereotypes apply to me is sad. After all, there's a reason stereotypes exist in the first place. It's just that some people forget that they don't apply to everybody. (I'm heavily in the camp that says people get offended too easily)

aschen
August 13th, 2004, 09:22 AM
No. Men don't need "love arcs." I think those are a conspiracy to make it bearable for women to watch when a couple is married and there is but 1 TV in the house. :O

Posherella
August 13th, 2004, 09:24 AM
I can't stand all these love arcs in Stargate and don't like any of the shipper possibilities. I really wish they'd leave Sam and Jack alone.

Although with the X-Files, I was a strong Mulder-Scully shipper until they started playing it up every single episode. Ships are much better when there is an unspoken, unacknowledged sexual tension between the characters.

trinity1013
August 13th, 2004, 09:25 AM
Well if those stereotypical things weren't true, then what would we have to complain about?
True. And this thread wouldn't exist. :eek: ;)



Men don't need "love arcs." I think those are a conspiracy to make it bearable for women to watch when a couple is married and there is but 1 TV in the house. :O
If I really didn't like sci-fi, I could think of plenty other stuff to do than watch something that annoys me with my husband. Knitting, for example. ;)

DJFavorite
August 13th, 2004, 09:28 AM
Okay, so why do they then incorporate a "love arch" at all? I mean, the few women who are into sci-fi could probably do without it as well and it seems (blatantly generalized) that the men are rather annoyed by it as it distracts from the actual story. So, assuming that the target audience really is male from 18-34, they have to assume that you (the men) also want a "love arc" or what?
I couldn't tell you why they add the "love arc", except to give the girlfriends of the 18-34 yr old males something to enjoy while sitting on the couch having to watch the show?? :rolleyes:

Seriously, I'm not sure why they add it. If it is subtle enough, it gives the characters depth, but too much becomes distracting. That's what I think TPTB are having a difficult time doing. Finding that right balance.

Liv
August 13th, 2004, 09:31 AM
As for the whole gender thing, most scifi fans ARE male. It would seem as though that the majority (and I know there are some of you awesome girls out there) of females like scifi, are really drawn to the whole love arch behind the storyline.


Then I guess I´m in the female minority category, because I do not want that whole love-thing. I want the friendship and the chemistry, but not the romance.

As for watching sci-fi, well, mostly it has to do with the awesome writing and the fact that usually these shows have a lot more leeway in terms of telling a story. I can´t even remember when I started watching these particular type of genre shows, but I think that it was either Buffy (which isn´t really sci-fi, I know) or Babylon 5 that got me into it, and then from those shows it kind of took on a life of its own. ;)

Oh, and the math/language vs male/female thing... I´m terrible at math, just terrible. The worst. But the language I never really had a problem with so I guess I fit into that stereotype. More or less.

trinity1013
August 13th, 2004, 09:33 AM
Although with the X-Files, I was a strong Mulder-Scully shipper until they started playing it up every single episode.
We have far too much in common. ;)


Ships are much better when there is an unspoken, unacknowledged sexual tension between the characters.
Absolutely agree and the way the S&J ship has been going is a bit too obvious, even for me. It just doesn't seem that believable anymore. And the Pete thing has made matters even worse, I'd say.


I do not want that whole love-thing.
But there you've got really good examples of women loving sci-fi but at the same time disliking the "love arc" which they incorporated especially for them!

Posherella
August 13th, 2004, 09:35 AM
In almost any show where a man and woman interact closely, they'll start developing romantic/sexual feelings for one another, even if that wasn't the intent at the beginning.

I think it has to do with the When Harry Met Sally theory that men and women can't be friends.

trinity1013
August 13th, 2004, 09:42 AM
I´m terrible at math, just terrible. The worst.
You can't be. I'M the worst. :D


In almost any show where a man and woman interact closely, they'll start developing romantic/sexual feelings for one another, even if that wasn't the intent at the beginning.
I think it has to do with the When Harry Met Sally theory that men and women can't be friends.
I always had a bit of a problem with this theory. Don't you have fe/male friend you just consider to be friends and would never think of having a relationship with? Surely, people grow on you and as you get to know one another better an attraction might develop where there hasn't been one in the beginning but if that'd be like that with all people who are close we'd have a real chaos.

Liv
August 13th, 2004, 09:44 AM
You can't be. I'M the worst. ;)


:D

Okay then, we´re both terrible. How´s that?

aschen
August 13th, 2004, 09:45 AM
Then I guess I´m in the female minority category, because I do not want that whole love-thing. I want the friendship and the chemistry, but not the romance.
Ditto. Except, I'm male... :)

trinity1013
August 13th, 2004, 09:47 AM
Okay then, we´re both terrible. How´s that?
Great. Well, come to think of it, not so great because a bit of a math talent would actually be really nice but who knows what you would have to sacrifice for it? ;)

This feels more and more like a chat to me, it's strange. So I'm gonna tell you that I'm going home now. (if that's unappropriate: sorry).

Posherella
August 13th, 2004, 09:48 AM
I always had a bit of a problem with this theory. Don't you have fe/male friend you just consider to be friends and would never think of having a relationship with?

I have a lot of thoughts on this, but I won't post nearly all of them to spare you. I believe friendship is an attraction of a sort and I believe as the friendship grows, your commitment to the other person goes. I think in a lot of cases, people get sexual attraction confused with just regular every day "I like you as a person" attraction and it manifests in hooking up.

A lot of men don't think men and women can be friends. I've heard the When Harry Met Sally line so many times it isn't even funny (almost daily). I think for TV, producers and writers get sort of bored with the characters and turn things into a ship just to put some spice back into the show. Sort of like Who's the Boss. Also comparable with how almost any show that features a married couple will eventually have a baby if the show lasts long enough.

Pdixie
August 13th, 2004, 10:09 AM
Really? I've never experienced this. Most of my male friends are into sci-fi and they're the only ones I can talk to about it. Of course, they're - (stereo)typically - also into all the action stuff, but I've never heard that a man's looked down on for loving sci-fi. Why? It's not like you confessed your love for some sappy love movie. And even that would be okay, although really way out of the stereotype.

Maybe it's because I live in a backwards redneck infested Bible belt area, but around here partaking in science fiction is seen as something done by only the most extreme dateless geeks, and the thought of a relativly average person such as myself being a fan of many scifi franachises is a little odd. I was reading a Starwars book in class once and a fellow came over and "discussed" with me how lame "spaceships and lasers and aliens were". I gave him a Teal'c patented eyebrow raise and went back to reading. Fortunatly I'm moving back east in a few days.

As to romance, I would consider myself a fan of love stories, not by themselves but when intertwined with other plot elements, such as Han and Leia's love in Star Wars or Daniel and Sha're. [mod snip]

Skydiver
August 13th, 2004, 10:10 AM
this isn't exactly a place to get an accurate answer because the majority of online fans in stargate are female.

Most of the lists are populated by females, even a good majority of the attendees of gatecon were women

Posherella
August 13th, 2004, 10:14 AM
Pdixie, I'm in the Bible belt too. I would hazard a guess that sci-fi is a 'guilty pleasure' for a lot of people and they're just not willing to admit it.

Although you have to admit that sci-fi gathers some pretty unique people (just go to a midnight release showing of the last Star Wars movie for the tiniest taste of that....) People are likely afraid of "turning into" one of these sorts of people for some reason so they bash it mercilessly.

Personally, I think it all chalks up to people not being able to accept anything different than the status quo.

Tok'Ra Hostess
August 13th, 2004, 01:42 PM
Oh, if you knew just how bad I am at math, you wouldn't say that! ;)

You (and your gender) aren't the only one. President Ronald Regan showed his innumeracy when he said, "A million dollars, a billion, a trillion, whatever. It doesn't matter as long as we do something about the problem." :rolleyes:

As to the topic at hand, I and my whole family are into science fiction, but, although we like the A/A type sci-fi, and the aliens and space ships stuff, I do regret that there isn't a better mix of sci-fi stories on tv. Science fiction isn't all about space, aliens, and blowing stuff up. I would dearly love a Gattaca type series, or a MYST, or a Brazil.

(BTW, MYST remains the top favorite game of both genders, and even though there are few actual number calculations, it is very much a math type of game.)

Science fiction was originally supposed to be about how science and technology would affect the human condition. I find that the current crop of space-oriented SF is,... good,... the way that Italian cuisine is good, but just as there's more to Italian cuisine than pasta, so, too there is much, much more to SF than space battle-of-the-week.

Posherella
August 13th, 2004, 01:46 PM
I heartily agree with you, Tok'Ra Hostess. I like sci-fi, but the umpteen carnations of StarTrek-like series really get quite boring and repetitive after a while. It's one of the things that makes Stargate shine in my mind.

DJFavorite
August 13th, 2004, 01:55 PM
(BTW, MYST remains the top favorite game of both genders, and even though there are few actual number calculations, it is very much a math type of game.)
(OT: Loved MYST. Trying to work on Exile, but life keeps getting in the way.)

I think that because sci-fi can take such a wide range of areas (not just space) is slowing making it enjoyable for a more well rounded audience. I just think that writers and such have focused on the typical demograph, that they don't know how to really address the wider audience. SG is doing a better job than most, in my opinion.

Tok'Ra Hostess
August 13th, 2004, 02:12 PM
this isn't exactly a place to get an accurate answer because the majority of online fans in stargate are female.

Most of the lists are populated by females, even a good majority of the attendees of gatecon were women

I wonder if this is a case of, 'the facts don't always match the stats'?

The question was asked: Why the love arcs in SF? That's a good question, since most SF writers for tv/movies are male, and they write for the male demographic.

There is another thread that asks whether the SG-1 series writers write women well. Most of the stories in the series were written by (a commitee of) males, and there has been no lack of ship on the show, much to the vocal dismay of many female viewers who go online and (I would imagine)to cons.

So, why do men write ship?

Personally, I think it's because men are just as romantically inclined as women, most particularly men who love to write stories. :)

Capt. Rivet
August 13th, 2004, 02:31 PM
We are definitely in the minority... I've had a thing for Sci-fi (action/adventure too) since I was a little kid. My sisters hate it and most of my female friends could care less (which is why I always end up going to the movies alone :p )
As for Math, Computers, etc... My proficiency in math is pretty limited (pretty good at physics though, ironically) but I love computers and am planning on getting into the field of video game design after college.

snowshoeangel
August 15th, 2004, 10:56 AM
I love Sci-fi. When I first started seeing my boyfriend it really surprised him (Sci-fi nut also). We went to watch a movie at his apartment and I started looking through his collection (Star Wars, Star Trek, Battlestar Galactica, etc.). I started talking about how much I liked those movies. With SG-1, I actually watch more of it than he does. We have seasons 1-6 and are waiting on season 7. I like it because it does have a story line. But I do watch all other movies too. We just went and watched AVP on Friday. We have the Alien Boxed set. I'm lucky that I actually found someone to share this with.

Iskandra
August 15th, 2004, 11:55 AM
I think it's quite funny that there are more girls/women that got into the whole sci-fi thing through their *mothers* than I ever thought...I thought I was the only one....my mum has been into sci fi since the original Star Trek and forced me to watch it ;)
But then I'm probably pretty weird anyway....I can read maps (and use a GPS, and I even *have* one...geocaching, anyone?), I'm fairly good at maths, I had my first computer when I was 11 (back in the early 80s), I've been on the internet since 1993, I can repair cars and stuff (my dad being a mechanic and ex-motorcycle race driver...probably all his fault, and my brain was perfectly feminine before that :D )...I'm also an rpg geek, and I've done some of this stuff for money....and what I do with languages (more dead than living ones, though) is not the "girly" stuff (literature studies ;) ) either, it's linguistics, which is infinitely more scientific :D
And when I played with barbie dolls, they had to do jungle fights and parachuting in our garden. Incidentally, I can't stand these books that waffle on about gender stereotypes. I really don't think I'm "male", nor have I ever wanted to be male. I'm glad there are more women like that around here! :)

Ancient 1
August 15th, 2004, 04:16 PM
I've always watched and enjoyed SciFi. As a kid, I enjoyed the special affects. (cheesy as they were.) The affects have vastly improved with the 'silicon age' but as I've grown older, I can apreciate the sheer amount of science that goes into making SciFi. In its own way scifi tends to become scifac, (Science Fact). So IMO, any one who watches is not a geek, nerd, or any other "label." They are in fact intuitive forward-thinking people.

ibwolf
August 17th, 2004, 12:16 AM
Some replies, better late then never....


So is trinity1013 but people keep capitalizing it, so I thought I could do the same to you ;) (I actually thought about it before posting). But I'm doing a good job at convincing myself that people just write my username with capital "t" because I'm so important. ;) Oh, and as it rather annoys me, I'm gonna change it...

There is some history behind this name - it's not just for this forum -, but (as I stated) it's not a big deal.



So, perhaps some/many (?) people don't really enjoy the sci-fi but just the action within the sci-fi?

Sort of. They're not there to explore the implications of technology on human society or some such. They want to see Will Smith kick robot a**.



Are you talking about computer programmers? Because, as far as I know, computer programming is all about math. I actually wanted to study computer science... that is, before I learnt that you have to do only math for one year to get started. Even if you want to become a graphic/web designer, you have to go through that, which I think is weird because I know many people who are really good at art-stuff (doing collages, websites, drawing, that kind of thing) but suck at math.

I wonder if ibwolf has to say something about that, how else would he know that?

Yes, in a way it is about math, but not as most of you know it. It's primarily about logical math (that probably not the proper english term for it).

Programming languages are (despite their name) not like regular languages. They have much greater structure for one, and that is inherently 'mathematical'.



Learning the programming language itself and designing certain things like websites and so forth does not take a great deal of understanding math. There was little math involved with my early programming courses, it was mostly about learning the language and what you can do with it and writing some relatively simple programs. You can even make a lot of complex, or complex looking programs and still not know too much math.

It's when you get into the higher level courses, aka data structures, that math really starts to help out. I know in my data sturctures course, we start talking about linked lists, hashed maps, binary trees, and so on, and then some aplications of them, then it becomes math "heavy". you start to learn about their uses and counting theory, linear algebra, numeric differential equation solving, and it can get intense, but it all depends on the direction you go. you can still write great programs without that knowledge, but if you go into programs that require these more advanced structure for mathematical intensive programs, then yes, you knowing math would be pretty important.

If you ever program in Matlab (as the name suggests) that's a mathematical intensive program, but it's designed for recording samples for testing, solving complex calculus equations, designing and simulating complex designs of various fields.

Webdesign and other programming in that realm does't require the mathematical knowledge that some of those more "extreme" programs require.

Right, some excellent points here. Learning to write a 'Hello World' program is simple. Even web pages are quite simple and require mostly skills as a layout artists.

But once you get down into the nitty gritty of data structures etc. (and that etc. covers a lot) things change immensely.

It's still not the algebra you learned in highschool though. The math behind formal representations of functionality are for example worlds apart.



I could understand if they did it in their spare time, but as you have to do quite a lot of math here (at university) to become a computer programmer (or anything computer-related, basically) and do it for a living, I understand that there are not many professional female ones.

Right, in order to get a degree you've got to wade through a lot more math then you are strictly speaking going to need. My Uni. has been reducing the math it teaches CS in favor of more program oriented courses. But overall about a third of a BSc degree in CS is going to be math.

Ironically the field of Software Engineering is getting broader. It used to be all about the programming, but today you could work as a software engineer without ever writing a scrap of code. Other tasks such as requirments analysis and system design, not to mention support, writing documentation etc. is a huge part of the process today.



Ok, at this point I skipped a bunch of posts before....


There is another thread that asks whether the SG-1 series writers write women well. Most of the stories in the series were written by (a commitee of) males, and there has been no lack of ship on the show, much to the vocal dismay of many female viewers who go online and (I would imagine)to cons.

So, why do men write ship?

Personally, I think it's because men are just as romantically inclined as women, most particularly men who love to write stories.

Partly I think that is correct, but only partly. I think the real reason is found a bit further back in you post where you say "were written by (a commitee of) males" (my emphasis). You see there is the 'convention wisdom' (Jon Stewart explaining conventional wisdom (http://www.comedycentral.com/tv_shows/thedailyshowwithjonstewart/videos_corr.jhtml?p=stewart)) that a TV series needs a romance. Preferably between two of the series' stars. Even if it never "happens", you have to hint at it. The X-Files did it, heck Xena did it. It's just some thing you do.

I'm not saying that men don't do 'ship', but most male writers wont do it unless it serves the story (rather then being the story). I know that is true of me. Of course there are always exceptions. This wouldn't be any fun without them :)

trinity1013
August 20th, 2004, 04:59 AM
There is some history behind this name - it's not just for this forum -, but (as I stated) it's not a big deal.
I guess you won't tell me the history, will you? (you can PM me, too, you know ;)). Sorry, but I'm an awfully curious (not to say "nosy" ;)) person.



They're not there to explore the implications of technology on human society or some such. They want to see Will Smith kick robot a**.
How sad that you're a 100% right. And many just go to see Will Smith... doing anything. :(



You see there is the 'convention wisdom' (Jon Stewart explaining conventional wisdom (http://www.comedycentral.com/tv_shows/thedailyshowwithjonstewart/videos_corr.jhtml?p=stewart)) that a TV series needs a romance. Preferably between two of the series' stars. Even if it never "happens", you have to hint at it. The X-Files did it, heck Xena did it. It's just some thing you do.
But it's not directly connected to a show's popularity/success, is it? So, they just do it because everyone does it, not because there're actually more people watching? I don't really get that, as lots of people obviously are annoyed by the ship and most don't see it as the reason to watch, either.



I'm not saying that men don't do 'ship', but most male writers wont do it unless it serves the story (rather then being the story).
Is that supposed to mean female writers make "ship" the one and only story? ;)
What if it's not "ship" as in a romantic relationship women are more interested in but generally interaction between the characters rather than just plot?
Because I think that is true of me. I like scenes with friends/"enemies" having a conversation just as much as somewhat shippy ones. I like them having an argument or showing emotions in another way because it deepens the characters.

nugglebugget
August 20th, 2004, 05:42 AM
I'm female & have never really cared for "chick flicks" & romance films & such,although there have been exceptions.I do like romantic comedies but I find action/adventure more appealing.I like sci-fi but can get bored pretty easily with some.I had no problem going to see "Godzilla" for our anniversary one year:I liked seeing a huge-honkin'-rampaging lizard going out on the town ,...go figure:p .
I'm a mild S/J shipper & I do like to see a bit of romance{emphasis on "a bit"} & some UST.However,I favor the eps with battles,explosions,SG-1 generally kicking "gluteus-maximus",etc.
Maybe because as a kid,I had to wear my brother's hand me downs & I was the only girl in the neighborhood of boys that I developed a stereotypical "guy-mindset streak".I mean, there was me,my brother,& the boys next door...
Ok,one of the boys next door would play barbies with me & would do fantastic "Olivia-Newton-John" impressions on the bus,but that's a whole 'nother story;)

trinity1013
August 20th, 2004, 05:58 AM
I'm female & have never really cared for "chick flicks" & romance films & such,although there have been exceptions.
Generally, I don't like anything that is just romance either, it's boring most of the time. I do enjoy a bit of romance mixed into sci-fi, though, mostly because it doesn't get out of control there, it doesn't get too sappy.

I wouldn't watch anything that had just battles or explosions either, though. I want a good story to support it and complex, likable characters to go with it.

Tok'Ra Hostess
August 20th, 2004, 06:37 AM
I'm female & have never really cared for "chick flicks" & romance films & such,although there have been exceptions.

<snippidy-do-dah>

Maybe because as a kid,I had to wear my brother's hand me downs & I was the only girl in the neighborhood of boys that I developed a stereotypical "guy-mindset streak".I mean, there was me,my brother,& the boys next door...
Ok,one of the boys next door would play barbies with me & would do fantastic "Olivia-Newton-John" impressions on the bus,but that's a whole 'nother story;)

This isn't meant to be a jab at you, personally, NB, but I'm really beginning to dislike that word, stereotype. :(

ibwolf
August 20th, 2004, 07:25 AM
Another long reply, this is getting to be a habit :)


I guess you won't tell me the history, will you? (you can PM me, too, you know ;)). Sorry, but I'm an awfully curious (not to say "nosy" ;)) person.
I said there was a story behind it, not a secret or even a particularily interesting story :)

It basically dates back about five years and began with a online FPS called Action Quake. I was still in college and AQ was the game of choice. I used to play as BigBadWolf. Sometime during the summer of 1999 I began to become involved with the AQ community online and decided that I needed a unique name. Something that would be mine. So I started trying to register several ideas at one of the large (then but now defunkt) free e-mail sites. Figuring that anything that hadn't been registered there would be pretty much unique. I eventually arrived at ibwolf (read 'I be wolf', inspired by the cartoon I am Weasel). The spelling bit was an arbitrary choice. Since then I've used ibwolf as my identity on numerous forums and online games etc. It is basically my online name, one that I stick with (at least on MB where I am willing to be identified).

Now, if there is anyone who hasn't been bored to death, lets move on...



But it's not directly connected to a show's popularity/success, is it? So, they just do it because everyone does it, not because there're actually more people watching? I don't really get that, as lots of people obviously are annoyed by the ship and most don't see it as the reason to watch, either.
"Common sense" holds that for a TV series to be 'engaging' it must have some drama. One of the most commonly used dramas is a relationship of some sort (but always "romantic"). That's just the way things are done. Stargate has tip-toed around it because they sense that they need to have something, but also know that going any further would hurt them. It's a balancing act. To be fair I think they are right to assume that it would cost them viewers if the the Sam/Jack 'ship had not been a part of the story at any point.



Is that supposed to mean female writers make "ship" the one and only story? ;)
What if it's not "ship" as in a romantic relationship women are more interested in but generally interaction between the characters rather than just plot?
Because I think that is true of me. I like scenes with friends/"enemies" having a conversation just as much as somewhat shippy ones. I like them having an argument or showing emotions in another way because it deepens the characters.
There are very few men who write 'romance' novels. For some reason that kind of literature seems to be a female 'thing'. I'm sure there are exceptions, and I was most definately not saying that female writers never write a relationship as a part of the story.

More platonic relationships generally only serve the story. There are a few exceptions, such as Lost in Translation though. But then Lost in Translation was written and directed by a woman :)



I'm female & have never really cared for "chick flicks" & romance films & such,although there have been exceptions.I do like romantic comedies but I find action/adventure more appealing.I like sci-fi but can get bored pretty easily with some.I had no problem going to see "Godzilla" for our anniversary one year:I liked seeing a huge-honkin'-rampaging lizard going out on the town ,...go figure:p .
I'm a mild S/J shipper & I do like to see a bit of romance{emphasis on "a bit"} & some UST.However,I favor the eps with battles,explosions,SG-1 generally kicking "gluteus-maximus",etc.
Maybe because as a kid,I had to wear my brother's hand me downs & I was the only girl in the neighborhood of boys that I developed a stereotypical "guy-mindset streak".I mean, there was me,my brother,& the boys next door...
Ok,one of the boys next door would play barbies with me & would do fantastic "Olivia-Newton-John" impressions on the bus,but that's a whole 'nother story;)
Everyone is different, that's the beauty of life. Despite being a guy I've on occasion been known to enjoy a romantic comedy (rare, true but it has happened).

Sterotypes actually are a self fullfilling concept (at least partially). Because group X is expected to behave in a certain manner they are more likely to do so simply to 'fit in'.

trinity1013
August 20th, 2004, 07:56 AM
@ibwolf - thanks a lot for satisfying my curiosity with that story. Now I can enjoy my weekend and don't have to think about it 24/7. ;)




Stargate has tip-toed around it because they sense that they need to have something, but also know that going any further would hurt them. It's a balancing act. To be fair I think they are right to assume that it would cost them viewers if the the Sam/Jack 'ship had not been a part of the story at any point.
You could be right, but I think they're not doing so great at balancing lately. More and more people seem to be annoyed and turn into anti-shippers.



There are very few men who write 'romance' novels. For some reason that kind of literature seems to be a female 'thing'.
Not wanting to offend anyone, I still say romance novels are rubbish. I neither know why women (or anyone, for that matter) reads or writes that kind of stuff.



Sterotypes actually are a self fullfilling concept (at least partially). Because group X is expected to behave in a certain manner they are more likely to do so simply to 'fit in'.
Which also works the other way round, then, doesn't it? I am more likely to not behave like the majority of my gender because I don't want to fit in, because I want to distance myself from sappy love stories and typical "femaleness". Then again, I don't think I watch sci-fi or any "male" genre simply because I want to deviate, to be a "rebel", especially because what you get as a woman watching "Stargate" is your ("Gilmore Girls"- and "The Bold and the Beautiful"-loving) female friends asking you "you really like that (referring to "Stargate")? WHY?". A part of me might like not being like other women in that respect but if sci-fi wouldn't do anything for me, I wouldn't desperately try to like it, just because I don't like the other "extreme".

ibwolf
August 20th, 2004, 08:00 AM
@ibwolf - thanks a lot for satisfying my curiosity with that story. Now I can enjoy my weekend and don't have to think about it 24/7. ;)
Well you're easy to satisfy err... that didn't come out right :)



You could be right, but I think they're not doing so great at balancing lately. More and more people seem to be annoyed and turn into anti-shippers.
Agreed. This is probably because the writers just don't know what the frell to do with it anymore (which is probably the reason they brought in Pete)



Not wanting to offend anyone, I still say romance novels are rubbish. I neither know why women (or anyone, for that matter) reads or writes that kind of stuff.
Don't ever read them myself, but that's besides the point. The point was that romance novels are largely written by and for women.



Which also works the other way round, then, doesn't it? I am more likely to not behave like the majority of my gender do because I don't want to fit in, because I want to distance myself from sappy love stories and typical "femaleness". Then again, I don't think I watch sci-fi or any "male" genre simply because I want to deviate, to be a "rebel", especially because what you get as a woman watching "Stargate" is your ("Gilmore Girls"- and "The Bold and the Beautiful"-loving) female friends asking you "you really like that (referring to "Stargate")? WHY?". A part of me might like not being like other women in that respect but if sci-fi wouldn't do anything for me, I wouldn't desperately try to like it, just because I don't like the other "extreme" either.
Most human beings strive to fit in. It's a fundamental part of our physcy (sp?). There will always be exceptions, and it's is a gradual scale, not black and white. But most people will try to 'fit in'. We like to feel that we belong. Just our nature.

Of course that wont make you like SF or whatnot. It will just make you a hell of a lot more likely to give it a fair shot.

trinity1013
August 20th, 2004, 08:17 AM
Well you're easy to satisfy err... that didn't come out right :).
LOL



This is probably because the writers just don't know what the frell to do with it anymore (which is probably the reason they brought in Pete)
Yeah, because, contrary to myself ;), most shippers are hard to satisfy and they get tired of the postponing technique. I think "Stargate" has a pretty good "excuse" for that in S&J being military (much better an excuse than, for example, X-Files or J.A.G. have/had) and I find nothing wrong in a bit of teasing (now this really starts to be - unintentionally, I swear! - innuendo-filled ;)) but people do want to see a growth of some sort in the ship, they have to mean more to each other than the season before, this kind of stuff and before they go over the top too soon they push the reset button, which, I agree, is Pete here.



Don't ever read them myself, but that's besides the point.
Neither did I (well, not more than a few pages, anyway) but most of my friends who admit that they do don't really admit that they like it, they play it down by saying "I just need something dumb to relax". That's what I don't like. If you're into romance novels/"The Bold and the Beautiful" or something like that, at least admit that you enjoy it and don't be embarrassed. Then again, it's probably people like me who make women like my friends feel embarrassed but, in my defence, they also make watching "Stargate" look like a crime.



Most human beings strive to fit in. It's a fundamental part of our physcy (sp?).
I think you mean 'psyche'.



But most people will try to 'fit in'. We like to feel that we belong. Just our nature.
Well, then that's what this thread is for - making me feel I belong, not that I'm some kind of wacko for liking what I like. ;)

joshing123
August 20th, 2004, 01:56 PM
It would seem as though that the majority (and I know there are some of you awesome girls out there) of females like scifi, are really drawn to the whole love arch behind the storyline.





That doesn't work. If I was only drawn to the love arch I would be watching Lifetime movies & reading Harlequin romances, not sci-fi. Even when there is romance it's not the main focus of any sci-fi I've ever seen.

While a "love arch" may not be a detraction for me, it is most definately not why I enjoy sci-fi. I don't go into any of them expecting a love story.

Tok'Ra Hostess
August 20th, 2004, 07:21 PM
Originally Posted by aschen

It would seem as though that the majority (and I know there are some of you awesome girls out there) of females like scifi, are really drawn to the whole love arch behind the storyline.

I can't speak for the others of my gender, but this particular female was most definitely not drawn to Stargate because of the ship. I am in no way, shape or form, anti-ship, nor am I gung-ho pro-ship. If ship happens, fine, I'll take it(and defend its right to exist), and if it doesn't happen I won't even notice, as long as the story is a good one, for it is the story, the potential for human endeavor, the discovery, the mirror into our society's soul that I enjoy in any good SF.

trinity1013
August 27th, 2004, 03:46 AM
this isn't exactly a place to get an accurate answer because the majority of online fans in stargate are female.

Most of the lists are populated by females, even a good majority of the attendees of gatecon were women
Okay, so why then is this so? If the majority of sci-fi fans are male, why are the majority of online sci-fi fans female? And, doesn't it contrast rather sharply with how aAnubiSs sees this, that...

there are more male programmers because computers overall is a "male" thing.
?

As for the answers I get here not being able to represent the true nature of things, I was aware of that, the idea was not so much one of a poll with clear answers, I just wanted to know about people's feeling about and experiences with this topic and also not only if they themselves felt they (didn't) fit the stereotype but how people they know fit/don't fit in.

ibwolf
August 27th, 2004, 04:35 AM
Okay, so why then is this so? If the majority of sci-fi fans are male, why are the majority of online sci-fi fans female? And, doesn't it contrast rather sharply with how aAnubiSs sees this, that...

Perhaps Stargate has an unusually large (for a SF show) female following? I'm just speculating here. I had never heard that "the majority of online fans in stargate are female" before...

trinity1013
August 27th, 2004, 04:49 AM
I had never heard that "the majority of online fans in stargate are female" before...
Well, Skydiver's a Mod, so s/he gotta know. I have absolutely no overview of all the people here, whether they're m or f, that is, so I believe it.



Perhaps Stargate has an unusually large (for a SF show) female following? I'm just speculating here.
Could be. But why? I mean, for those who now want to list all the attractive fe/male actors/actresses on the show: other sci-fi shows do have good-looking casts, too. What differentiates "Stargate" from other sci-fi shows that makes it more interesting for women?

ibwolf
August 27th, 2004, 06:11 AM
Well, Skydiver's a Mod, so s/he gotta know. I have absolutely no overview of all the people here, whether they're m or f, that is, so I believe it.
Well, people aren't asked to give up their gender upon registration so (aside from having been here longer) s/he wouldn't have any more info... Maybe there was a poll sometime before I joined?



Could be. But why? I mean, for those who now want to list all the attractive fe/male actors/actresses on the show: other sci-fi shows do have good-looking casts, too. What differentiates "Stargate" from other sci-fi shows that makes it more interesting for women?

Not sure why. I'm pretty sure that it's not related to 'eye candy'. Probably a combination of the 'feel' of the show, the characters and their interactions and how people relate to any of them.

Just as a bit of empherical evidence. My mother (who got me started reading SF at an early age) considers SG to be the best SF show pretty much ever. My brother and I on the other hand - while enjoying it immensely - would not hesitate to put both B5 and Farscape ahead of Stargate. For whatever reasons those shows speak more to us....

trinity1013
August 27th, 2004, 07:13 AM
Well, people aren't asked to give up their gender upon registration so (aside from having been here longer) s/he wouldn't have any more info... Maybe there was a poll sometime before I joined?
Maybe s/he was judging from the usernames? Talking about it, you gave me an idea with your "username story", namely asking people what their usernames mean/why they chose them. Think there are other people out there who'd tell me? I'm turning you into my babysitter, amn't I? Sorry.



I'm pretty sure that it's not related to 'eye candy'.
Me, too. Otherwise, they'd be (half-)naked more often. ;) Then again, the stereotype says that men are more easily affected/attracted by that kind of stuff anyway (okay, reading a bit of the "thunk" threads here, you don't get that impression) but from personal experience I get the idea that attractiveness of actors/actresses plays a huge role in somebody's decision whether or not to watch a show/movie.



My mother (who got me started reading SF at an early age) considers SG to be the best SF show pretty much ever. My brother and I on the other hand - while enjoying it immensely - would not hesitate to put both B5 and Farscape ahead of Stargate. For whatever reasons those shows speak more to us....
That's interesting indeed. I've never seen a lot of "B5" but quite a bit of "Farscape", until they stopped showing it here. That was a long time ago, though, so I couldn't say what exactly would make it less attractive for women in comparison to "Stargate". What does your mother say?

ibwolf
August 27th, 2004, 07:21 AM
Maybe s/he was judging from the usernames? Talking about it, you gave me an idea with your "username story", namely asking people what their usernames mean/why they chose them. Think there are other people out there who'd tell me? I'm turning you into my babysitter, amn't I? Sorry.
I'm quite certain I have no idea what you are talking about :)

In any case, most of the people posting here seem to have a Stargate related nick so there isn't much there. But maybe others have something of a story *shrugs* couldn't hurt.



Me, too. Otherwise, they'd be (half-)naked more often. ;)
Umm....... err let's not go there.



Then again, the stereotype says that men are more easily affected/attracted by that kind of stuff anyway (okay, reading a bit of the "thunk" threads here, you don't get that impression) but from personal experience I get the idea that attractiveness of actors/actresses plays a huge role in somebody's decision whether or not to watch a show/movie.
For me it is the last thing I'd consider. Sure having a good looking woman doesn't hurt a show but I'd never let it influence my viewing beyond maybe being more likely to give such a show a chance...



That's interesting indeed. I've never seen a lot of "B5" but quite a bit of "Farscape", until they stopped showing it here. That was a long time ago, though, so I couldn't say what exactly would make it less attractive for women in comparison to "Stargate". What does your mother say?
Just that she likes SG more. Nothing more concrete then that I'm afraid.

trinity1013
August 27th, 2004, 07:32 AM
But maybe others have something of a story *shrugs* couldn't hurt.
Thanks for the "encouragement". ;) I'm bored and hope others are, too, so I'll just do it.


On (half-)nudity:
I always found the character of Anise/Freya and her clothing (rather lack thereof) a bit strange. Not that I felt offended or anything, it was just weird. This has nothing to do with me being a woman, though, I didn't really like the way they re-introduced Daniel either. Okay, it made sense that he wouldn't have clothes but still it was kinda unnecessary.



For me it is the last thing I'd consider. Sure having a good looking woman doesn't hurt a show but I'd never let it influence my viewing beyond maybe being more likely to give such a show a chance...
What about the other way round? Does having an ugly wo/man as a main character hurt a show?

ibwolf
August 27th, 2004, 07:38 AM
This thread is turning into a dialoge :)


On (half-)nudity:
I always found the character of Anise/Freya and her clothing (rather lack thereof) a bit strange. Not that I felt offended or anything, it was just weird. This has nothing to do with me being a woman, though, I didn't really like the way they re-introduced Daniel either. Okay, it made sense that he wouldn't have clothes but still it was kinda unnecessary.
She said in one of the eps. that her culture had a different attitude to sex and sexuality (or something along those lines) so I guess it fits in with that. I certainly didn't mind her wardrobe :D



What about the other way round? Does having an ugly wo/man as a main character hurt a show?
Can't really think of a suitable example :) I would like to think that that wouldn't be the case in my instance. If the story is good and engaging then everything else is secondary. But somehow I doubt any TV exec would ever put on a show where the only lead female was actually "ugly". At least not if it was intended to capture the young males demo.

trinity1013
August 27th, 2004, 07:48 AM
This thread is turning into a dialoge :)
Yep, and you're talking much faster than I am. I can hardly keep up! Not that I mind... :)



She said in one of the eps. that her culture had a different attitude to sex and sexuality (or something along those lines) so I guess it fits in with that. I certainly didn't mind her wardrobe :D
Do you mean what she said when she kissed Jack in "Divide and Conquer"? I don't know if that's the same. The other Tok'ras are not that revealingly dressed, are they?



But somehow I doubt any TV exec would ever put on a show where the only lead female was actually "ugly". At least not if it was intended to capture the young males demo.
Yeah, although there's the thing with personal preference, too. But some people are just ugly, and most people agree to that, so I guess they'd never take someone like that. Although it was a comedy, perhaps. And then the poor one would be made fun of.

aschen
August 27th, 2004, 08:51 AM
this isn't exactly a place to get an accurate answer because the majority of online fans in stargate are female.

Most of the lists are populated by females, even a good majority of the attendees of gatecon were women
Really?? That's crazy! :O I would never have thought that the majority of SG-1 fans are females. O_O

Athenaktt
August 27th, 2004, 12:26 PM
I don't know if this is relevent, but anyway here is my two cents...

Being a female Scifi fan, I get made fun of by my female non Scifi friends...but that is besides my point.

Up until this year I only knew one other Sg-1 fan which was my roommate. Until I recently stopped caring about how my friends would tease me about being a SG-1 geek, so I would declare my love for sg-1, and out of the blue a friend of mine came out out saying "stargate sg-1 rocks!" and how much he loved it. And this happend again with another guy friend of mine.

It's like a lot of guys (at least the ones I'm acquainted with) are so to speak "in the closet" fans of Stargate. It could be the result of male ego, but who knows.

Madeleine
August 27th, 2004, 08:54 PM
Really?? That's crazy! :O I would never have thought that the majority of SG-1 fans are females. O_O


Any reason why not? :)

ibwolf
August 30th, 2004, 01:05 AM
Do you mean what she said when she kissed Jack in "Divide and Conquer"? I don't know if that's the same. The other Tok'ras are not that revealingly dressed, are they?
It isn't a Tok'Ra thing. The comment refered to Freya's (the host's) people and their customs. Presumably Anise is willing to humor Freya on this subject.



Yeah, although there's the thing with personal preference, too. But some people are just ugly, and most people agree to that, so I guess they'd never take someone like that. Although it was a comedy, perhaps. And then the poor one would be made fun of.
There is TV ugly and then there is ugly ugly (as one excellent Simpson episode pointed out).

trinity1013
August 30th, 2004, 05:52 AM
It isn't a Tok'Ra thing. The comment refered to Freya's (the host's) people and their customs. Presumably Anise is willing to humor Freya on this subject.
Right. Well, Anise would have had to suffer if Jack had wanted to be with Freya, too. And Jacob doesn't drink coffee anymore. That's true symbiosis.



There is TV ugly and then there is ugly ugly (as one excellent Simpson episode pointed out).
Haven't seen many "Simpsons" eps, unfortunately. Without wanting to offend anyone, do you have any examples of (in your opinion) "TV ugly"?

ibwolf
August 30th, 2004, 06:20 AM
Haven't seen many "Simpsons" eps, unfortunately. Without wanting to offend anyone, do you have any examples of (in your opinion) "TV ugly"?

Not really................ ugly might be too strong a word, but on Buffy, Xander is supposed to be a geeky 'couldn't get a date if he was the last man alive' type (at least initially) but the actor playing him is (I'm told) considered to be quite attractive.

Usually TV ugly means that the actor is not ugly, just that the character that he or she is playing is supposed to be ugly :)

trinity1013
August 31st, 2004, 12:11 AM
on Buffy, Xander is supposed to be a geeky 'couldn't get a date if he was the last man alive' type (at least initially) but the actor playing him is (I'm told) considered to be quite attractive.
Not in my eyes. I'd say he's average, at best. And, AFAIK, they also somehow made fun of that on "Buffy" - talking about him basically just dating vampires.



Usually TV ugly means that the actor is not ugly, just that the character that he or she is playing is supposed to be ugly :)
I know what you mean. Steve Urkel comes to mind... But there are really ugly actors, too, aren't there? Of course, they make them better looking (you can do anything with lots of make-up and good lighting ;)) but basically they're not really average- or good-looking. But I think all of them are cast like that and I don't remember any protagonist of anything else than comedy being really ugly either.

fair_nymph
February 4th, 2005, 08:29 PM
One correlation that I have definitely noticed is: scientists, especially physical scientists(physics, chem, and math), are nearly always at least somewhat into sci-fi. I think that correlation has more predictive power than any other.

Of course, there are far more men than women in the physical sciences so that would explain in part why sci fi generally appeals more to men.

It could be said that women who are in the physical sciences are more 'masculine', at least in mindset, than the 'average' woman...perhaps the same could be said of women interested in sci-fi, to some degree.

Certainly it would apply to me, I have a background in chemistry and biology, and I've always acted more like a 'guy' than a girl. Which is a good thing in my book.

@Li3n
February 5th, 2005, 06:26 AM
Frankly I find that most people like thing mostly because how they where brought up, and what influenced them at an early age (girls have Barbie and boys GI Joe), and that sort of thing.
Also i think most people like Stargate more than Farscape or B5 because it's easier 2 get into. I mean Farscape and B5 are way better in my opinion(even if in B5 they had that whole time traveling thing, which I really hate) TIME TRAVEL SUCKS, STOP DOING IT...

Albion
February 6th, 2005, 07:12 AM
My personal experience suggests that the majority of sci-fi fans are men

Unless things have changed dramatically over the years, I would have to say my experience differs. Admittedly, I haven't been to a convention in a number of years, but every one I did attend in the past had a healthy half and half mix of male and female attendees. In fact, I'd probably say there were slightly more females than males.

I think males were more attracted to pure SF conventions. The likes of Asimov and Heinlein, say. Females seemed more attracted to SFantasy like McCaffrey or Eddings and conventions for SF TV shows attracted both.

It's not a scientific observation by any means, but that's definitely the mix I was a part of back in the day.

Albion :)

emily_reich
February 7th, 2005, 12:27 AM
Yeah, I've always been a bit of a weird duck compared to all my chick friends (pun intended :D )! I've been a sci-fan fan since I was a kid. You name it, I loved it. "Space:1999," "Buck Rogers," "Battlestar Galactica," "Star Trek TOS," "Bionic Man/Woman." How many girls did you know growing up that had a Star Wars action figure collection - and played with them! My best friend in high school rated her movies by the number of kleenex she went through - drove me nuts! We did everything together . . . except watch T.V. and movies. :)
So, maybe I have a "manly" brain, too. But that wouldn't explain my hobby of quilting . . . I will have to say that I was in the minority - definitely had to have my "fan" conversations with the guys. And as for Stargate and sci-fi, good story or eye candy? Perhaps it is a little of all three ;)

-tera'ngan

ok, this is going WAY back in the thread and i really read much after this cuz as soon as i saw this i knew i had to respond!!! :D

i was first introduced to scifi at age 6 or 7 by my first babysitter in the form of star wars :) i've kinda slowly developed a scifi addiction (building on one show at a time :D) ever since!!!

and i GREW UP on shows like bionic woman and six milion dollar man.... i admit to not getting into trek and such til later, but still, i grew up on scifi... and i DID play with star wars figures and had a damn good fun time doing it too!!! :D my sis (two years younger than me) has been my scifi geek companion the whole way too!! :)

being 18, female, and a scifi geek DOES set me apart from pretty much all my friends... in high school it was kinda an unspoken rule that i didn't discuss scifi around them, but oh well... my best friend ever accepts me in me and all my scifi geek glory :D but she doesn't like it either... (though i DID get her to not think SG1 was stupid anymore, so that's a start!!! :D)

so i must say MANY of the scifi fans i've met online are female... but there are many guys also...

i think (and sorry if someone mentioned this already...) the difference in gender viewing of scifi is not scifi in general but WHAT the watch the scifi for... obviously there's exceptions to every rule, but in general more of the 'shippers and thunkers out there are gals... and they guys do talk about how hot the gals are too!! but it's not quite the collective group dynamic that the shippers and thunkers have!! and i know a lot of gals and guys like different aspects of the story... i mean, there's the action/adventure aspect, the characters, the relationships, etc....

now not to make this sound TOO sterotypical.... in GENERAL, i think (at least among the online fans!) the gals like about various scifi shows similar things to what the sterotypical gal likes in non-scifi and same with the guys (did that make any sense???)

anyway... that's just been my observation, remembering of COURSE that there are exceptions to every rule!! :)

Albion
February 8th, 2005, 04:47 AM
It would seem as though that the majority (and I know there are some of you awesome girls out there) of females like scifi, are really drawn to the whole love arch behind the storyline.

Not this one. Two things primarily attract me to any show - especially SF which is and always has been my favourite genre. That's humour and character relationship. Note, that's distinct from ship. By character relationship I mean moments like Hammond's discussion with Carter about her father's illness at the start of Tokra I. Or the Daniel/Jack relationship/banter. Moments in which we see how and why a close group of people care about each other. Of either gender. I love that. Can't get enough of it.

In certain shows, I can enjoy the ship. I do with Stargate and I did with my other two previous loves - Lois and Clark (where it was kind of a given, given the entire show was about the ship between the two main characters) and The Young Riders. But it's not a must for me. Where it works for me, it's more like a bonus. An added extra.

Albion :)