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ShadowMaat
April 30th, 2004, 07:06 PM
Has Stargate Jumped the Shark (http://www.jumptheshark.com/)? Why or why not? Can it be saved? Can it NEVER jump? Why?

For me, I still think the biggest bad spot was Full Circle and what happened to the Abydans. The premiere of S7 wasn't too hot, either. There's a big difference between "homage" and "blatant rip off" and as far as I'm concerned, Stargate did the latter. Shallow plotting, poor characterization and coincidences which were too frequent and too massive to ignore detracted from the eps as well.

Anyone else care to comment? Bueller? Bueller?

SGSlugger
April 30th, 2004, 07:25 PM
For the sake of discussion, I'll comment.

It seemed to me that the S6 finale was a bit rushed, and didn't really fit together. I do also feel sorry for Abydos. The S7 opener started off with a bang, but I'm not sure if that was a good thing. It didn't really feel like it fit in, it seemed like the authors were scraping from the bottom of the barrel for a way to get rid of Anubis's ship. I think that it could have been handled better.

GateGipsy
May 1st, 2004, 08:40 AM
For me, a show has to descend into the plain ridiculous for it to 'Jump the Shark'. Just as Happy Days did, when Fonzie did actually jump that darned shark.

For me, the show isn't what it was in season 3 - that was the pinnacle. But even then, it is still way better than anything else on TV, and even at its worst, it is still immensely watchable TV.

Unlike Enterprise, or Angel, I haven't found myself so bored I actually drifted off and did something else without even realising it.

Gategrrl
May 1st, 2004, 03:29 PM
I found myself either walking away a lot, or working on the computer, or putting the DVDs of the earlier seasons on (and yes, I've got s1-6 on DVD), making books, putting my kids to bed, doing the dishes, going to the garage to get the laundry done...

When a show doesn't keep me in my seat for the show, even through the commercials, and does that on a regular basis, it's off my list of favorites. That's what happened with Angel, and Buffy towards the end (I only watched that final season just to see how Whedon was going to wrap that up, and out of real loyalty). Plus, if the premise doesn't hold my attention anymore, I switch off. That's what happened with Law and Order...after a while, my taste changed.

In this case, I would have gladly followed SG-1 until the end of its run, but the premise seems to have changed, the Lead roles have changed, the plots have become shallow mockeries of what they once were, and the characterization -- well, for some of the characters, it sucks lemons.

So, for me, it has jumped the shark. Esp when I read the upcoming spoilers for s8. More SamGate and Her Many Loves. And I'm really not interested in watching TPTB destroy what are now my favorite characters, simply because they can.

ShadowMaat
May 1st, 2004, 03:39 PM
And I'm really not interested in watching TPTB destroy what are now my favorite characters, simply because they can.

Amen! That's one of the reasons I've given up watching- because I don't want to see something I love being destroyed. I'd rather remember the GOOD times than have to suffer through the bad, knowing that things will only get worse.

tara3583
May 2nd, 2004, 05:48 AM
No i don't think the show has "jumped the shark" it's changed and grown over the years and that is what makes it still entertaining because it does move the over all story foreward. I hope sg1 makes it to the big screensome day.

ShadowMaat
May 2nd, 2004, 07:07 AM
it's changed and grown over the years and that is what makes it still entertaining because it does move the over all story foreward.

I'm glad you still think that the story is moving forward. My personal opinion is that most of the changes for the past few seasons have been for the worse and that in S7 in particular the show is devolving, not evolving. Change is good, but only if it's for the better, and as far as I'm concerned, the latest changes in Stargate have been for the worse...

Dani347
May 2nd, 2004, 07:39 AM
Change is good, but only if it's for the better, and as far as I'm concerned, the latest changes in Stargate have been for the worse...

Right. Change in and of itself is not good. Just because a show changes doesn't mean it's making progress or improving. I agree that imo the changes that have been made are worse.

dipsofjazz
May 2nd, 2004, 08:50 AM
I don't think it's jumped yet. I do agree that the show has changed a lot. With the reduced schedual of RDA, I feel we aren't getting the team-based episodes of the first few seasons. The team is, IMO, the strong point of the whole show, as the stories are much stronger. :(

KayBrooke
May 2nd, 2004, 10:35 AM
As someone else said above, for me a show has to become truly absurd and cringeworthy before I'll say it jumped the shark (kinda like season 9 X-Files). Though I've questioned at times some of the . . . directions they're taking the story lines, I still watch Stargate every week and always enjoy it. So no, I don't think it has jumped the shark.


-Kay Brooke

TameFarrar
May 2nd, 2004, 01:37 PM
I would have to say that because Stargate has yet to go beyond the ridiculous and has still utilized plausible story lines- granted I don't always like them or agree with them-I do not believe they are close to Jumping the Shark. As a fan there is just to much overall I like about the show still to give up on em because of some of the things I don't think are all that great

Geekyred
May 2nd, 2004, 05:20 PM
Well for my two cents worth, while I think it's redeemed itself just enough with the 2nd half of season 7 I think the jump the shark moment came with Daniels 'de-scention' and the way it was handled. I mean, they may as well have had him in the shower when Teal'c came out of Khel-nor-eem (spot the sp anyone?).

SallyK
May 3rd, 2004, 12:24 AM
I'm not completely sure the show has jumped the shark yet, though it came pretty close several times in the second half of the season.

I'm hoping that at the end of Season 8 I will be able to look back and see that the team came back together, that Jack and Daniel's friendship was given the attention it deserved, that Sam regained the respect she has lost as a result of Grace, Heroes, Lost City etc. etc. and that Teal'c finally had something significant to do, without Chris Judge having to write the episodes himself. I hope we will have many episodes going through the Stargate to explore new worlds, and make contact with our own mythology. That the writers will remember that there is more to sci-fi than big explosions.

On the other hand, I'm afraid that looking back in retrospect I will have to say that Grace was when the show jumped the shark, when they finally decided to introduce a pod person instead of the Sam Carter I knew and admired, and the show forever became a showcase of "homages" to other shows rather than the original concept it had been in the beginning.

Only the next year will tell.

SallyK

Mar9645
May 3rd, 2004, 04:51 PM
I was going to do a long treatise on Season 7 jumping the shark but have decided to concentrate on the element that is primary to me and has been shark-bitten the worst, namely the characters of Jack O'Neill, Sam Carter, Daniel Jackson and Teal'c.

To say I was shocked at the crash-and-burn Season 7 did is only part of it. The real shock is that this long-running, quality show jumped the shark so suddenly. Granted, Disclosure and Full Circle in Season 6 were pretty bad but I've chalked it up to TPTB writing for a series finale and tie-in to a feature film and Atlantis.

The first half of Season 7 was okay enough to have 5 episodes I enjoy rewatching. Even with that stupid episode Avenger 2.0, I continued to be hopeful that some significant character and story movement would come through in the second half of the season. Boy, was I wrong! The horror of the bad writing, insipid storytelling and pathetic character regression became even more appalling.

After watching Chimera, Heroes Parts 1 and 2, Resurrection and Lost City Parts 1 and 2 along with Enemy Mine, Space Race, Avenger 2.0 and Evolution Parts 1 and 2, I don't recognize this as the Stargate SG-1 I loved for six seasons and I don't know who these four people are anymore.

Jack's dumb routine has reached the saturation stage, even for him. Added to it is the rank crudeness that has suddenly been added. I don't like Colonel Jack O'Neill anymore and wish he would be promoted to the Alpha site, rarely to be seen again. Never mind being an ancient information-site downloadee. What he really needs is a personality transplant.

Teal'c was wonderful in Season 6. He showed us how much he'd changed and how far he'd come since Children of the Gods. Now he's back to being the monosyllabic, eyebrow twitching, grumpy alien he was in Season 1. I really feel sorry for him.

Sam is the one I feel sorry for the most. From the strong, take-charge, polished Air Force officer and brilliantly adept scientist she'd fully achieved in Season 6, she's been relegated to a whimpering stereotype female, driven solely by her emotions. What she needs to do is lose Jack and Pete, neither of whom are good enough for her. TPTB should get her back on track with her career and DUMP THE SHIP COMPLETELY!

The Daniel character breaks my heart the most. This once dynamic, vibrant personality is now stuck in emotional neutral since his deascension. He's not the Daniel he once was and he hasn't been allowed to become the Daniel he could be if TPTB had used his return to its fullest advantage. He is boring. He's also lost a few marbles somewhere. I wanted to strangle him for giving the tape back to that weasel Bregman! Angst isn't just for fan fiction, guys.

Season 7 can be summed up in a few short, descriptive phrases: numerous lost opportunities for character advancement, a gone-nowhere story progression and a huge slap in the face to the viewers, the worst of which was that two-part abomination Heroes.

What's really sad is that Season 8 looks to be more of the same. RIP Stargate SG-1?

Eken95
May 3rd, 2004, 11:17 PM
Why or why not? Can it be saved? Can it NEVER jump? Why?

For me, I still think the biggest bad spot was Full Circle and what happened to the Abydans. The premiere of S7 wasn't too hot, either. There's a big difference between "homage" and "blatant rip off" and as far as I'm concerned, Stargate did the latter. Shallow plotting, poor characterization and coincidences which were too frequent and too massive to ignore detracted from the eps as well.

Anyone else care to comment?

I don't think SG1 has 'jumped the shark' I also didn't like Full Circle but generally the show is still telling good stories with interesting characters I think. I'm still watching and enjoying.
Erika

Matt G
May 4th, 2004, 02:37 AM
Yeah well...I guess it depends on your definition of jumping the shark.

My hunch says that S7 though very hit and miss, is going to be a blip. The reason for this blip? The writers didn't know Season 7 was going to happen till the last minute.

I like what I'm hearing about 'New Order' though I think that a 3 person SG1 could be stretching things a bit and I believe that S8 should be able to make up for the worst elements of S7.

Indiana
May 4th, 2004, 03:17 AM
Stargate can only jump the shark for individuals because as individuals we enjoy different things. I haven't enjoyed Stargate as much as I did watching seasons 1-3 and it's because when S4 came about I started reading the spoilers. Spoilers are called spoilers because they spoil the show. If you didn't enjoy season seven its probably because there was no element of surprises in the episodes. You knew what was going to happen because you read the complete episode synopses online here.

I've not read a single spoiler for S8 or the Atlantis series. All I've peeped at is the new Gallery for Atlantis (only one I'm looking at) and the odd photographs of new characters. Plot Lines I have tried to steer right away from.

It's not the show that jumps the shark but the people who watch it. I jumped the Shark in Season four by reading spoilers. I never read them in S1-3.

People say that characterization has weakened and so has plot lines, but most of you might feel this way because you knew what was going to happen before hand and so nothing was a surprise. For many it wasn't a surprise what happened in Part 2 of "Heroes", or for what happened in "Meridian", or the twist in the tale of "Revisions" was common knowledge if one kept up with the joneses on spoilers. Imagine what the show would be like if you didn't know what was going to happen week after week? :eek:

ShadowMaat
May 4th, 2004, 03:26 AM
Imagine what the show would be like if you didn't know what was going to happen week after week? :eek:

I didn't know what was going to happen in Full Circle (other than Daniel returning) and I still hated the things they did. ;) As you said, people enjoy different things. For you, maybe spoilres ruined part of your enjoyment of the show, but for others, they enhance the experience. Spoilers are not the bane of existence for everyone. But that's a discussion for another thread.

I hope you're right about S8, Matt, but I can't share your confidence.

Indiana
May 4th, 2004, 04:23 AM
I didn't know what was going to happen in Full Circle (other than Daniel returning) and I still hated the things they did. ;) As you said, people enjoy different things. For you, maybe spoilres ruined part of your enjoyment of the show, but for others, they enhance the experience. Spoilers are not the bane of existence for everyone. But that's a discussion for another thread.

I hope you're right about S8, Matt, but I can't share your confidence.

And you still knew what was going to happen. In S1-3 episodes I would know absoloutely nothing about new episodes. Nothing! Nathing! Zip! But like individual episodes, different people like different things.

I on the other hand enjoyed Full Circle. If TPTB had known they would be returning for another season they would have done it differently. The ending of full circle definitely lacks the adventurous upbeat endings that earlier season used to have. In the end, I enjoyed it and thats what it counts to me. Sorry you didn't enjoy it, but we can't like 'em all.

But to some up what I was trying to say, Spoilers for me is when I jumped the Shark. I guess I'm going to have to wait til I watch a few new episodes before I can say if not reading the spoilers will improve my enjoyment of the show or not because since I decided to stop reading the spoilers there have been no new episodes.

ShadowMaat
May 4th, 2004, 04:32 AM
And you still knew what was going to happen.

I knew Daniel was returning, that was bout it. The thing that pissed me off the most came as a complete surprise. I sat there stunned before my TV set thinking, "They could not possibly have just done that. They aren't THAT stupid, are they?"

But whatever. Spoilers ruin things for you. For me, they've saved me the heartache of watching some truly wretched-sounding eps, and clued me in as to which ones I should watch, so I'm quite grateful to have them.

As for getting back on topic, I stand by my prediction that a lot more people will be finding their own personal shark jump points during the course of S8. I'll be curious to see how this thread plays out.

Gategrrl
May 4th, 2004, 06:59 AM
I agree with you there: everyone is different.


People say that characterization has weakened and so has plot lines, but most of you might feel this way because you knew what was going to happen before hand and so nothing was a surprise. For many it wasn't a surprise what happened in Part 2 of "Heroes", or for what happened in "Meridian", or the twist in the tale of "Revisions" was common knowledge if one kept up with the joneses on spoilers. Imagine what the show would be like if you didn't know what was going to happen week after week? :eek:[/QUOTE]

What WAS a surprise for ME, was seeing and noticing how much Sam was pushed forward, and Daniel pushed back. How Sam was made into Jack's New Best Friend, and Daniel relegated to most of the non Team Scenes/Plots.

What I noticed, that I do not think spoilers had anything to do with, was the spotty characterization and plotting of episodes.
Spoilers had nothing to do with spotty characterization of the main characters.
Spoilers had nothing to do with the poor storytelling.
Spoilers had nothing to do with the lack of team interaction.

Basically, using spoilers as a reason for why *I* think the show has jumped into sharkdom, has nothing to do with what I knew beforehand. The joy of discovery of SG-1 has died: unless it's an ep written by CJ, tho, I'd like to qualify.

FeydJM
May 4th, 2004, 08:16 AM
This is all very interesting. I personally still love the show and think it's a long way from Jumping the Shark.

I liked how the creators got rid of Michael Shanks and I think the way they brought them back was appropriate. It's been an ongoing thing that Oma Desala was not the prime example of the ascended and was kind of a rebel. So it fit completely in that the ancients had to punish Daniel but Oma found a way to bring him back. I think a lot of people underestimate how hard it is to re-introduce a character.

It also fit with Oma "saving" all abydonians. I liked that as well. It was a shocking plot twist but not one that I would consider inappropriate.

As far as S7 goes, I enjoyed it. I especially liked Space Race (flame away) and Lifeboat. I wonder why they wrote out Janet but I thought it was appropriate the way they did it. And the whole story behind heroes with the film crew and all struck me as completely plausible. I imagine that happens in a lot of top secret places for documentation purposes.

All in all, I'm really looking forward to Atlantis and S8. I hope it ends in dignity and I also hope Atlantis can carry the torch forward.

Wordsmit2
May 5th, 2004, 01:26 AM
Has Stargate SG-1 jumped the shark?

Yes. "Full Circle" was the turning point. "Hooray, Daniel's coming back. We don't have to try any more. The show will just write itself."

Dead wrong, guys.

Can it be saved?

Yes. The writers are going to have to go back to trying. They succeeded brilliantly in season 6 when they had to define a new character and get us to respect him, and shift the show's focus to Carter in order to give Richard Dean Anderson more time off. They also managed to reintroduce the series, for those who had only noticed it now it was on the Sci-Fi Channel instead of subscription TV.

*

Looking back at season 6, I'm struck by how much teamwork there was. Most noticeably there were Carter-Jonas and Teal'c-Jonas pairings. But even episodes like "Sight Unseen" had a sense of teamwork, because it was the *SGC* at work. Skills were complemented, weaknesses were recognized and patched, assumptions were put aside, agendas were adjusted or postponed.

That's something that seems lacking in season 7. Compare the "Homecoming" Daniel-Jonas and O'Neill-Carter teamwork with the solo episodes, or the ones where people don't work together, or the ones where they work together but it doesn't matter *who* they work with. There is soul in "Homecoming" and "Avenger 2.0", which is probably why fans disagree about them so vehemently. Too many of the other episodes seem sterile, passionless, insubstantial. No one is asked to change.

This explains why I liked "Fallout" whereas upon reflection there didn't seem to be a lot to it: Keana's agenda forced Carter and Jonas to adjust to battle or accommodate her, and in turn forced her to change her agenda. The bickering delegates and the increasingly gloomy revelations of the causes of their woes didn't play quite so well because the delegates never made any adjustments. Yet it *was* interesting watching Daniel, Hammond, and ultimately O'Neill attempt to adjust and eventually get pushed too far.

Aphrodite
May 5th, 2004, 02:01 AM
I'm glad you still think that the story is moving forward. My personal opinion is that most of the changes for the past few seasons have been for the worse and that in S7 in particular the show is devolving, not evolving. Change is good, but only if it's for the better, and as far as I'm concerned, the latest changes in Stargate have been for the worse...

I dred to think you maybe right. I mean they did kill off Dr. Frasier in the most rushed and for me not so right way.
Then in S8 Jack will barely be part of SG1 according to the spoilers and Hammond?? has he finally retired? Then there's Jacob/Sam's dad, he'll also barely be appearing on the show because of the strained Tokra alliance.....I mean I can keep going here....I mean it seems that the primary and some secondary casts appear to be leaving the show!!
Is that why Stargate - Atlantis was produced...to slowly end the original Stargate??

Shemyaza
May 5th, 2004, 04:19 AM
I find myself wondering if the show hasn't become a victim of its own success. Everyone has their own expectation of a favourite show's direction. I admit that this show hasn't gone in my preferred direction and I think it came closest to jumping the shark during Season 4, which for me was one of the worst seasons. It was a defining season for me and afterwards, although I have not stopped watching the show, it felt to me as though it had taken a direction so far removed from the original concept that it had almost become another show. For me it was always about the Stargate, yet that aspect has appeared to diminish with the constant focus on the SG1 team members themselves. I know that many will say 'well it is called Stargate SG1' but for me that meant Stargate and SG1, not exclusively SG1. For me, the two were always inextricably linked to each other. I have a feeling that this was very much due to the perceptions of what viewers wanted from the show which some of the writers took on board rather too enthusiastically. They seemed to assume from the ensuing enthusiasm over the four main characters that this was the only thing that viewers wanted. More about Jack, more about Sam, more about Teal'c (albeit him to a slightly lesser degree than the others) and of course Daniel. The level of hysteria over his character reached such heights that when he left the show it bubbled over. That for me was the second defining point of the show and something which was handled excruciatingly badly. This wasn't so much a jumping the shark stage, although the shark fins were definitely circling when they had Daniel ascend and they've been circling ever since. However it's my feeling that the show hasn't actually jumped yet, but Season 8 is yet to come and as long as they don't get 'demob' happy and decide that because it's the last one they can do what they like no matter how ridiculous, hopefully the show will end on an upbeat note and won't be added to the annals of Jump the Shark! Unfortunately, given the fact that RDA seems to have switched off, Don S Davis' stabilising presence will no longer be there and Teryl Rothery, one of the few very talented members of the cast, has also gone, I'm not entirely sure they'll be able to resist turning it into a pantomime.

Still, here's hoping.........

MagnoliaAnaglypta
May 5th, 2004, 04:59 AM
My personal opinion is that most of the changes for the past few seasons have been for the worse and that in S7 in particular the show is devolving, not evolving. Change is good, but only if it's for the better, and as far as I'm concerned, the latest changes in Stargate have been for the worse...

I would have to agree. Not necessarily devolving, but being deconstructed. The show, for me, has lost its uniqueness, and become like any of the other recent crop of sci fi shows. What set it apart originally was the natural tensions that it had within it (discovering history versus military activity) and the placement of Earth itself within the heirarchy that was 'out there'. It's difficult to put it into words, but humankind doesn't seem to accept very gracefully that it's not the centre of the universe, and more and more the show has crept towards the postion where the humans are the most important people at the centre of everything, and no one else can do anything right, and everyone else needs help from the humans because humans have a manifest destiny to be 'better' than everybody else. In the early seasons, the program actually challenged this view. They actually made interesting plots out of it - such as Enigma, the Nox, and Learning Curve, where the SGC had to learn that it can't just go around demanding everyone change to suit their own ideas of what is good and right (although I do think the ending of Learning Curve was an awful cop-out). But recently it seems that it's become set in stone that the SGC does know best in every circumstance and everyone who has an opposing view seems to inevitably get bad Karma out of it...

The Asguard have been deconstructed, in that they now regularly need humans to pull their choobies out of the conflagration.

The Ancients have been deconstructed, in that it turns out they were humans after all, thus re-confirming humanity as the 'most important' species, and the natural heirs to all of that techie goodness...

The Ascended have been deconstructed, in that they now are embued with the same pettyness, the same trivial concerns as 'lesser' races, and the things which could have been explored about them will obviously now never be possible.

The Tollans have not so much been deconstructed as destructed...

The Nox have very sensibly dissapeared and are no doubt having a very good laugh at our expense somewhere.

The Tok'ra, who managed to survive without humanity's 'help' for two thousand years or so have now been all but wiped out - and I bet the remainder are now thinking that humanity wasn't that much help to THEM.

The Jaffa, who don't actually seem to be able to organise their way out of a paper bag without their Goa'uld masters, are now denied access to larval symbiotes because they are no longer trusted. Human intervention doesn't seem to have done them a lot of good either.

You know, when I think of what a writer like JMS might have done with the whole Tok'ra/Jaffa/Goa'uld/Human politics thing, it makes me want to weep for all the potential lost opportunities.

And I am not going to get started on particular characterisations.

darklilac
May 5th, 2004, 07:56 AM
Regarding the post of this Indiana person, it's weird for a fan to post something like this, usually it's TPTB that are worried about spoilers, in fact didn't they say something exactly like that not so long ago to the webmaster of Gateworld?
Spoilers don't make an episode less interesting or not good, it's the plot.
If an episode is crap, then it doesn't matter how many spoilers we read, like for example Emancipation, D&C, Wormhole Extreme, I didn't read any spoilers and I found them horrible anyway.
After season 3 the shows started to go downhill, so that's why the episodes started to stink, not because of the spoilers.

It's also interesting to see that the fans that think Stargate didn't jump the shark and it's still so damn good are all Jack/Sam fans(see the icons).
Of course, since now Stargate it's the Sam/Jack show.

Another person here posted that it jumped the shark at the beginning of season 7, with the descended thing(Daniel), but then Stargate came back on track in the second half of season 7.
Againd JS fans, while the truth is that the second half of season 7 has nothing to do with Stargate, everybody has been killed or transferred, and the main storyline is now the JS love.

Stargate didn't jump the shark, because they're not out of ideas, or out of characters, and some of the actors are very good.
It's TPTB that chosed to drop the ball, and let Stargate become the loveboat.

My only satisfaction will be when Atlantis will flop, and it will.

Dani347
May 5th, 2004, 08:06 AM
All I can say is, I've always read spoilers. I'm the type of person that flips to the end of a book before I start reading it. And, if a story is good, knowing how it's going to turn out has never affected my enjoyment. So no, for me spoilers are not the reason I think Stargate has jumped Papa Shark, Mama Shark, and all their little baby sharks. If I had watched season 7 without ever knowing anything beforehand, I still would have felt the same way.

GateGipsy
May 5th, 2004, 08:30 AM
It's also interesting to see that the fans that think Stargate didn't jump the shark and it's still so damn good are all Jack/Sam fans(see the icons).
Of course, since now Stargate it's the Sam/Jack show.


A lot of aggro and upset has been caused in the fandom due to the use of generalisations such as yours. It is just your opinion that it is the Sam/Jack show. It doesn't happen to be my opinion. I am a Daniel fan - you can see my icon. And I don't think that it has jumped the shark. So please don't use the 'all [insert type of fan here] fans' remark unless you've exhaustively surveyed the fandom and know it for sure!:)

GateGipsy
May 5th, 2004, 08:35 AM
What set it apart originally was the natural tensions that it had within it (discovering history versus military activity) and the placement of Earth itself within the heirarchy that was 'out there'.
Have you got any work done today? ;)

Right, you raised a lot of excellent points there, but I've only got time to go into one of them.

With this I think you hit the nail on the head, at least for me. I always liked that aspect of the show, the tussle between the civilian and the military, the sense that neither was right or wrong always, but that by pushing the two together you can come up with something that is ethically and morally the right thing to do. It is how I always imagined that Starfleet and the Federation first came into being.

Although I do agree that this is something the show has lacked in Season 7, I just don't think it is enough to 'jump the shark'. The show has been deconstructed, and the writers haven't come up with the same level of storylines we're used to, but we haven't descended into the plain ludicrous - yet.

**stops to think**

although how easily they were suddenly able to defeat the super soldiers in Lost City, and how they took them all out with no deaths despite Tealc making a great honking target of himself could be seen as ludicrous...nope, not going to think about it... **sticks fingers in ears, la la lala la la**

Sarcazmo The Clown
May 5th, 2004, 08:55 AM
Sorry...I still have a hard time changing the chanel. HTere are screaming matches in my house on Monday evenings because by 10pm, I've been watching SG1 since 6 and my sister wants to watch CSI:Miami. Just because its a "new" episode...pah! I'll take vintage Gate over new dead bodies any day!
As for the newer seasons being bad or boring...I thought so too at first, but now that S6 is airing on Fox here in the US, I'm watching them over again and thinking hmmm...interesting. I should've given them a chance the first go-'round. Also, with S7, the times are a-changing, and I'm still buying it. Hook, line, and sinker.
And if she's really goin' down, I guess I'm going down with her... You'll find me twenty years from now sitting in my room watching SG1 on TVLand. Come on in... there's plenty of room.

ShadowMaat
May 5th, 2004, 08:58 AM
Regarding the post of this Indiana person, it's weird for a fan to post something like this, usually it's TPTB that are worried about spoilers, in fact didn't they say something exactly like that not so long ago to the webmaster of Gateworld?

Are you trying to imply something about Indy, or are you just picking on him as the nearest convenient target? While I agree that spoilers don't "ruin" an ep in regards to storylines, they CAN spoil the enjoyment fans get from watching, and since the effect of spoilers is a matter of personal opinion, it can be neither right nor wrong nor can someone agreeing or disagreeing with TPTB make their opinions more right or more wrong or more "suspect". That's the whole point of an opinion.


It's also interesting to see that the fans that think Stargate didn't jump the shark and it's still so damn good are all Jack/Sam fans(see the icons).
Of course, since now Stargate it's the Sam/Jack show.

Wow, generalize much? I know some Sam/Jack fans who are as disappointed with the show as I am. ...Well, OK, maybe not quite as disappointed as I am, but they aren't too keen on the direction of things, either.

As Gipsy said, it's generalizations like that and the laying of blame entirely on individual factions which make fandom a difficult place. Yes, I'm sure there ARE some S/J fans who think the show is just fine, but I know of some anti-S/J'ers who still love the show just as much as the shippers. Try to keep an open mind. And remember to clarify that when you say things like, "It's the Sam/Jack show" that people know that it's just YOUR opinion. With the tone of your words it makes it sound as if you are stating fact when you aren't and I'm sure there are lots of people who would beg to differ with your opinion.


My only satisfaction will be when Atlantis will flop, and it will.

Again, that's your opinion, and quite a spiteful one too, from where I sit. And considering that I'm quick to criticize Atlantis, that's really saying something. ;)

You're free to have whatever opinion you wish, but actively wishing for a show's demise? What does that accomplish? Even I don't hate Atlantis that much.

I know all about posting "in the heat of the moment". I've done it before and I know I'll do it again. However, if you don't mind a little friendly advice (and that's all it is: advice), try taking a step back before you hit "post". Take a look at what you've said and see if it could be misconstrued, see if it could be hurtful to other people, try and consider the other point of view and see how your post looks. Just a thought. And probably one I could benefit from, myself. ;)

Shipperahoy
May 5th, 2004, 10:15 AM
I am an S/J shipper (yeah, I know people would never have guessed) and while I certainly don't think that the show has jumped the shark (although it was so very very very close with Full Circle) I have been disapointed with many aspects of the show.

Despite the fact that many people find it a contradiction I also love the Jack/Daniel friendship and team episodes and those have been few and far between. Is it because of S/J ship? That's probably a big part of it. But I am selfish and don't want to give up one thing I love for the other. I live in my own happy little la la land where I fully believe that it is possible not to focus on one aspect of the show to the exclusion of all others. I emerge every once in a while to release some pent up sarcasm when things start to really disapoint me but for the most part there I will stay. Yup, I'm the eternal optimist. :D Sorry I just couldn't write that last sentence with a straight face.

bcmilco
May 5th, 2004, 10:52 AM
I am an S/J shipper (yeah, I know people would never have guessed) and while I certainly don't think that the show has jumped the shark (although it was so very very very close with Full Circle) I have been disapointed with many aspects of the show.

Despite the fact that many people find it a contradiction I also love the Jack/Daniel friendship and team episodes and those have been few and far between. Is it because of S/J ship? That's probably a big part of it. But I am selfish and don't want to give up one thing I love for the other. I live in my own happy little la la land where I fully believe that it is possible not to focus on one aspect of the show to the exclusion of all others. I emerge every once in a while to release some pent up sarcasm when things start to really disapoint me but for the most part there I will stay. Yup, I'm the eternal optimist. :D Sorry I just couldn't write that last sentence with a straight face.

What she said... dito ;) :cool:

dipsofjazz
May 5th, 2004, 10:55 AM
What she said... dito ;) :cool:
ditto from me, too. :)

Shipperahoy
May 5th, 2004, 11:00 AM
What she said... dito ;) :cool:

You know you have to stop agreeing with me about everything or people will start to think that we're the same person. ;)

bcmilco
May 5th, 2004, 11:05 AM
You know you have to stop agreeing with me about everything or people will start to think that we're the same person. ;)

Well I can't help it if you're right all the time :p

Crazedwraith
May 5th, 2004, 12:32 PM
although how easily they were suddenly able to defeat the super soldiers in Lost City, and how they took them all out with no deaths despite Tealc making a great honking target of himself could be seen as ludicrous...nope, not going to think about it... **sticks fingers in ears, la la lala la la**

Yes it was terrible they had anti Kel devices! Even though that the devices had been in developemt ever since the Kel warrior was introduced!!! It's terrible the kel warrior can't hit main characters when even lowly Jaffa hit targets in similar postions all the time! Oh wait. THEY HAVEN'T!!!.

Gategrrl
May 5th, 2004, 12:51 PM
I am an S/J shipper (yeah, I know people would never have guessed) and while I certainly don't think that the show has jumped the shark (although it was so very very very close with Full Circle) I have been disapointed with many aspects of the show.

Despite the fact that many people find it a contradiction I also love the Jack/Daniel friendship and team episodes and those have been few and far between. Is it because of S/J ship? That's probably a big part of it. But I am selfish and don't want to give up one thing I love for the other.


Then, you agree that because of the J&S ship, and the way the writers feel they can only seem to write for one or the other, it's dandy to have one fanbase excluded for the benefit of another fanbase?

Cuz from where *I'm* sitting, that what it sounds like.
You're lucky in that you say you like both, yet prefer one over the other, and have the one you prefer pushed over and above the other to its exclusion.

*****
So, in addition to the lack of cohesive, GOOD stories that feature all of the team members and not just one or two, I also think the ship has helped sink the Stargate.

TameFarrar
May 5th, 2004, 01:11 PM
Then, you agree that because of the J&S ship, and the way the writers feel they can only seem to write for one or the other, it's dandy to have one fanbase excluded for the benefit of another fanbase?

I don't agree...I LOVE both the J/D friendship AND the S/J ship and I don't want to give up either and I don't think I have.....I do think that sometimes the writers lean one way this week and the other way next week AND NO way the following week.
I WISH that they would utilize the time RDA has on screen better sometimes.....contrary to popular belief not all shippers want 10 minutes of S& J just staring at each other.... BUT Unfortunately for me and VERY Fortunate for all of you :D I do not write the show.....
What is my dream.... well I will tell you
GREAT TEAM episodes that include a GREAT Friendship all four SG members with D/J banter AND a reminder that there is a GREAT couple (S&J) together in the background..
so Great Team, Great Action, Great Romance........spells blockbuster to me

Mar9645
May 5th, 2004, 03:52 PM
Excellent points. The condition of Earth's friends and allies doesn't leave anyone to create stories around, does it?

Of course, we still have the domestic political snake pit that did so much to ruin Season 7. There's the last gasp of the uniqueness, the top secret status of the Stargate, being thrown to the wolves.

I trusted the spoilers that led me to believe Season 7 was going to be the best ever. It wasn't until I actually saw the episodes that I arrived at the conclusion that most of them were terrible.

Now I'm trusting the spoilers I've seen so far for Season 8 to tell me that I need to keep my skepticism intact.

Dani347
May 5th, 2004, 04:11 PM
I don't agree...I LOVE both the J/D friendship AND the S/J ship and I don't want to give up either and I don't think I have.....I do think that sometimes the writers lean one way this week and the other way next week AND NO way the following week.

Well, all my opinion, obviously, but to me they've been leaning heavily one way through most of the season. And, it starts with an s and ends with an hip.

bcmilco
May 5th, 2004, 04:41 PM
Then, you agree that because of the J&S ship, and the way the writers feel they can only seem to write for one or the other, it's dandy to have one fanbase excluded for the benefit of another fanbase?

No, I don't think it's right to exclude any section of the fan base in preference to any other.

I'd like to see BOTH relationships on the show, and I'd like to think it can be done. I'd like to think the writers are capable of writing for both relationships at the same time.

I feel like RDAs time was very poorly utilized in s7, both in terms of quality of apperances and distribution of scenes between cast members. However at the same time I don't think they completely excluded Jack and Daniel. Would I like to see more? Yes, but not to the exclusion of ship.

IMO while the average quality of the episodes for season 7 slipped, overall I'm still enjoying the show so no I don't think it has jumped yet.

And despite the crappy spoilers were getting I'm still optimistic about season 8. :S :o

ShadowMaat
May 5th, 2004, 04:52 PM
And despite the crappy spoilers were getting I'm still optimistic about season 8. :S :o

Am I allowed to laugh at your silly optimism? ;)

I don't think that ship (or any other sub-element) should be a factor in the writing. Ship can exist whether the writers consciously write it or not. Pandering to the shippers MAKES ship exist, whereas by leaving well enough alone, those who don't want to see ship don't have to.

I never saw the Jack/Daniel friendship as being something specifically written, I always figured it was just a more or less natural occurence. Naive belief, maybe, but I always figured the friendship just sorta happened, rather than the writers sitting down and thinking, "OK, how do we show that Jack and Daniel are buddies?"

Whatever happened to just telling good stories? When did it become all about the "ship element" and the "buddy element" and the "this element" and the "that element"? *sigh*

Back on topic, I still think the show has jumped the shark. ;) If anything, the whole pandering to the various factions thing is just another tooth in the shark's mouth.

bcmilco
May 5th, 2004, 05:12 PM
Am I allowed to laugh at your silly optimism? ;)

Of course you can :p I do it all the time. :D


I don't think that ship (or any other sub-element) should be a factor in the writing. Ship can exist whether the writers consciously write it or not. Pandering to the shippers MAKES ship exist, whereas by leaving well enough alone, those who don't want to see ship don't have to.

I never saw the Jack/Daniel friendship as being something specifically written, I always figured it was just a more or less natural occurence. Naive belief, maybe, but I always figured the friendship just sorta happened, rather than the writers sitting down and thinking, "OK, how do we show that Jack and Daniel are buddies?"

I think chemistry between two characters just exists, and I think that's what you're talking about? but wether that chemistry is put to use or not has to be written IMO.


Whatever happened to just telling good stories? When did it become all about the "ship element" and the "buddy element" and the "this element" and the "that element"? *sigh*

well.... and then.... it could be.... well maybe...
I don't know. :p


Back on topic, I still think the show has jumped the shark. ;) If anything, the whole pandering to the various factions thing is just another tooth in the shark's mouth.

And I say it still hasn't jumped yet, but I reserve the right to change my mind at a later date ;)

ShadowMaat
May 5th, 2004, 05:18 PM
And I say it still hasn't jumped yet, but I reserve the right to change my mind at a later date ;)

I'll Stargate continue has my jumped subtle the brainwashing shark!! of Shadow you, is BCM. a :) goddess!

Shipperahoy
May 5th, 2004, 05:43 PM
Then, you agree that because of the J&S ship, and the way the writers feel they can only seem to write for one or the other, it's dandy to have one fanbase excluded for the benefit of another fanbase?

Cuz from where *I'm* sitting, that what it sounds like.
You're lucky in that you say you like both, yet prefer one over the other, and have the one you prefer pushed over and above the other to its exclusion.

*****
So, in addition to the lack of cohesive, GOOD stories that feature all of the team members and not just one or two, I also think the ship has helped sink the Stargate.

Where on Earth did you get any of that from what I wrote? I said that I like J/S ship. I also like team episodes and I really enjoy the Jack/Daniel friendship.

What I said *exactly* was that I believe that there is a way to write it so that one thing is not pushed to the exclusion of all others. Where from that did you get that I would prefer S/J ship pushed to the exclusion of all else?

The way that the writers have been writing it lately it has pushed the ship to the forefront to the detriment of other aspects of the show that I enjoy but I have voiced my displeasure of that time and time again. What I said is that I don't want to have to give up one thing I love just to have something else I love. I may be being unrealistic but I would like to think that if the writers were creative that there could be a way that I could have the whole ball of wax (ex: seasons 1-4).

So I certainly don't feel that it's *dandy* to exclude any fanbase and I feel as though you are putting words in my mouth that were never even close to ever having been written.

bcmilco
May 5th, 2004, 05:43 PM
Resistance is NOT futile :p

Gategrrl
May 5th, 2004, 08:29 PM
Is it because of S/J ship? That's probably a big part of it. But I am selfish and don't want to give up one thing I love for the other. I live in my own happy little la la land where I fully believe that it is possible not to focus on one aspect of the show to the exclusion of all others.

Shipper, true, you would like Ship not to exclude the other aspects, but J&S ship, in addition to pitiful storywriting and noncontinuity and lack of team cohesion has IMHO caused a big jump over Bruce the Great White.


But I am selfish and don't want to give up one thing I love for the other.

So, what did you mean by this? If the writers could start writing some decent Jack and other teammate scenes (::cough::Daniel::cough::) and that meant, by default, edging out some J&S scenes, you wouldn't mind, because you do like Daniel and Jack also, or you would resent it? Sorry, but color me confused here!

ShadowMaat
May 5th, 2004, 08:35 PM
I thought this thread was about whether or not Stargate has jumped the shark, not a chance to pick apart each other's opinions. :P

Shipperahoy
May 5th, 2004, 08:53 PM
So, what did you mean by this? If the writers could start writing some decent Jack and other teammate scenes (::cough::Daniel::cough::) and that meant, by default, edging out some J&S scenes, you wouldn't mind, because you do like Daniel and Jack also, or you would resent it? Sorry, but color me confused here!

What I mean is that I don't want to give up one thing I like for another. I don't want to give up J/S ship to get more team moments and I don't want to give up team moments for more J/S ship. Maybe it's completely unrealistic but I would like to have all of the aspects of the show that made me love it to still be in the show as they were in the earlier seasons.

While I don't believe that J/S ship has made the show jump the shark I do think that the way it was handled in the latter half of season 7 was detrimental to the show somewhat, but I really do think that it can be fixed and that they can bring back all of the aspects of the show that I love.

darklilac
May 6th, 2004, 05:29 AM
Another spoiler in Gateworld, another reason why Stargate is going down, so down I can't even think of watching this upcoming crappy season.
Now, after season 7 with allofsam, the big shipgate and 2 or 3 Daniel scenes, we have season 8, with all episodes about love, sex, carter and carterjacklove.
And no absolute Daniel in it.
If that's what they want, to make a lot of fans leave the show, they did it, but if they think said fans will watch their precious Atlantis, they're very stupid.

ShadowMaat
May 6th, 2004, 05:55 AM
And no absolute Daniel in it.

Well, with all due respect, Stargate is no more about Daniel than it is Sam/Jack. It's supposed to be about this team that actually goes offworld to explore the universe and protect the Earth from alien attacks.

Instead, it's getting increasingly Earth-based with eps focusing on Sam/Jack and other interpersonal relationships and fending off attacks from "local" threats rather than these silly aliens.

Daniel isn't the only one suffering. The whole team is suffering from attrition and character entropy- including Teal'c. Remember him? He actually spoke whole sentences in S6. He actually had a personality. No so anymore. The only decent Teal'c eps now are the ones CJ himself writes. Yay for CJ, but how sad a comment is that on TPTB?

Likewise in S6 one of the better Jonas eps was written by Jacqueline Samuda and James Tichenor.

I think they need fresh blood on the writing staff. Unfortunately, not only is that not going to happen, but they're going to stretch themselves (and their so-called "plots") even thinner by attempting to write for BOTH SG-1 and Atlantis. Bad idea.

Dani347
May 6th, 2004, 06:15 AM
I beg to differ. As part of the team Stargate is about Daniel. And Jack, Sam (but not Jack and Sam) and Teal'c. And, yes, Teal'c has been woefully underused. And, I'm sure that there are people who would scream about that (justifiably). And, some of us notice when Daniel is left out of spoilers. There's nothing wrong with that. If someone feels that for them the fact that Teal'c doesn't have anything interesting happen unless CJ writes it is why the show has jumped the shark, that's fine (I wouldn't even disagree). But, it shouldn't matter if they want to focus primarily on Teal'c, even if I didn't think his wallpaper status was important (which I do). Because, like I said, it would be the thing that would be the breaking point for them, and who am I to say differently. And, I feel the same way about Daniel. I notice when he's getting shafted (imo) more. Doesn't mean that I don't care about the show in general. The lack of Daniel in the spoilers does affect what happens to the show in general. IMO.


I don't see the show (and, I'm not trying to say that anyone does) as just a team of 4. It is, but it's also about each person as an individual, so talking about them individually and how someone may feel about the writing for them makes sense. And, it isn't necessary that each person has to mention every team member each time. Someone wants to talk about how they feel about how Sam is being written/not written/ whatever, fine. Great. If it's important to you. It's not important to me that you must mention the team as a whole, or give Daniel, Jack, or Teal'c equal time in your post. Just say what has bothered you about the show. Believe me, I'll have enough to say about Daniel. And, people will have enough to say about Jack and Teal'c.

keshou
May 6th, 2004, 06:37 AM
Well, with all due respect, Stargate is no more about Daniel than it is Sam/Jack. It's supposed to be about this team that actually goes offworld to explore the universe and protect the Earth from alien attacks.

I think they need fresh blood on the writing staff. Unfortunately, not only is that not going to happen, but they're going to stretch themselves (and their so-called "plots") even thinner by attempting to write for BOTH SG-1 and Atlantis. Bad idea.

Agreed. I'm a big team and character fan, but I'm also a big story fan. I don't want to see Sam/Jack to the exclusion of Daniel, I don't want to see Daniel to the exclusion of the other characters. They're at their best when they're all together although it's fun to see them mix up the pairings on occasion.

I also think they could use some fresh blood on the writing staff. Heck I just think they may need some help because it's darn hard to write and produce two shows at once. And I fear it's going to be SG-1 that suffers the most because they're naturally going to be more interested in the success of their new baby Atlantis.

I don't think the show has jumped the shark. I still enjoy it. I think it's edged up on the ramp a couple of times but hasn't made the leap. Season 7 came together pretty well in the second half (and I'm not even a shipper!) and I ended up liking about the same number of episodes in season 7 as I did in season 6 and season 5 (yes, I counted ;) )

I don't think the show is as consistent or original as it used to be. At one point I think it had the potential to rival Babylon 5 as the best overall scifi show ever produced. (IMO, of course). Now, it's just a nice, enjoyable scifi show with very good characters. Still it has managed to produce episodes every year that end up in my top ten list. Not bad for a seven-year old show.

I am a little concerned about season 8, especially with the spoilers we're getting and the comments about the "lower budget". I keep thinking....oh, geez, maybe the jump the shark moment is going to be (highlight for small S8 spoiler) Teal'c getting hair! *end spoiler*.

But I'm trying to remain optimistic! :D :D In spite of the "pests" (short for pessimists). :p :p

Dani347
May 6th, 2004, 06:56 AM
I don't want to see Daniel to the exclusion of the other characters.


Is there danger of this, based on the limited info that we have? Does it appear that when someone points out the lack of Daniel they see that they want Daniel to the exclusion of other characters?

ShadowMaat
May 6th, 2004, 07:16 AM
I beg to differ... If someone feels that for them the fact that Teal'c doesn't have anything interesting happen unless CJ writes it is why the show has jumped the shark, that's fine (I wouldn't even disagree). But, it shouldn't matter if they want to focus primarily on Teal'c, even if I didn't think his wallpaper status was important (which I do). Because, like I said, it would be the thing that would be the breaking point for them, and who am I to say differently.

I don't see the show (and, I'm not trying to say that anyone does) as just a team of 4. It is, but it's also about each person as an individual, so talking about them individually and how someone may feel about the writing for them makes sense.

Point taken. So I'll clarify and say that for me team is more important than any one character. Yes, the team is made up of individuals, and yes, I like to learn about them, but again, my opinion is that one of the greatest weaknesses of S7 was that a majority of the eps felt as if they were about individuals rather than the team as a whole. I don't like what I saw as an over-emphasis on Sam Eps and Daniel Eps and SamAndJack Eps to the exclusion of everything else. I like Team. I like Exploration. I like Alien Threats. I don't feel that there was enough of that in S7 and from what I've heard, there isn't going to be much of it in S8, either. Does that mean I want Team Eps to the exclusion of everything else? No. But I would like to see SOME Team Eps. More than we've been given in S7. I'd like for the writers to remember what the show is about. A TEAM of individuals. At least, that's my opinion. ;)

Dani347
May 6th, 2004, 07:31 AM
I don't like what I saw as an over-emphasis on Sam Eps and Daniel Eps and SamAndJack Eps to the exclusion of everything else. I like Team.

I don't disagree, entirely. I mean, the occasional one focused episode doesn't bother me. I don't think Sam got any good episodes focused on her, though, although Space Race wasn't really bad, imo. (But, it was also more about the guest characters. The episode that was really mainly about her was terrible. IMO;)) But, if the majority of the episodes were team episodes, I could take a few episodes that are primarily of one character. By, that I mean *real* team. If you can't use all the characters in the team ep, I expect a good reason why. Not that there's this lovely wall that needs someone to prop up.

bcmilco
May 6th, 2004, 09:56 AM
Yes, the team is made up of individuals, and yes, I like to learn about them, but again, my opinion is that one of the greatest weaknesses of S7 was that a majority of the eps felt as if they were about individuals rather than the team as a whole. I don't like what I saw as an over-emphasis on Sam Eps and Daniel Eps and SamAndJack Eps to the exclusion of everything else. I like Team. I like Exploration. I like Alien Threats. I don't feel that there was enough of that in S7 and from what I've heard, there isn't going to be much of it in S8, either. Does that mean I want Team Eps to the exclusion of everything else? No. But I would like to see SOME Team Eps. More than we've been given in S7. I'd like for the writers to remember what the show is about. A TEAM of individuals.

I agree, :eek: I don't think they emphasized the team enought in s7, but now, with Jack having an excuse for being gone most of the time I'm hopeful that they go back and at least emphasize the team of Teal'c, Daniel, and Sam, together. :o