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GateWorld
July 14th, 2006, 02:55 PM
<DIV ALIGN="center"><TABLE WIDTH="450" BORDER="0" CELLSPACING="0" CELLPADDING="7"><TR><TD><DIV ALIGN="left"><FONT FACE="Verdana, Arial, san-serif" SIZE="2" COLOR="#000000"><A HREF="http://www.gateworld.net/atlantis/s3/306.shtml"><IMG SRC="http://www.gateworld.net/atlantis/graphics/306.jpg" WIDTH="160" HEIGHT="120" ALIGN="right" HSPACE="10" VSPACE="2" BORDER="0" STYLE="border: 1px black solid" ALT="Visit the Episode Guide"></A><FONT SIZE="1" COLOR="#888888">ATLANTIS SEASON THREE</FONT>
<FONT SIZE="4"><A HREF="http://www.gateworld.net/atlantis/s3/306.shtml" STYLE="text-decoration: none">THE REAL WORLD</A></FONT>
<FONT SIZE="1">EPISODE NUMBER - 306</FONT>
<IMG SRC="/images/clear.gif" WIDTH="1" HEIGHT="10" ALT="">
Elizabeth Weir wakes up in a mental institution, where she is told that the expedition to Atlantis and the Stargate are figments of her imagination.

<FONT SIZE="1" COLOR="#888888"><B><A HREF="http://www.gateworld.net/atlantis/s3/306.shtml">VISIT THE EPISODE GUIDE ></A></B>
SPOILERS! PHOTOS! AND MORE!</FONT></FONT></DIV></TD></TR></TABLE></DIV>

NowIWillDestroyAbydos
August 18th, 2006, 08:09 PM
Good episode. Good to see RDA in that ep. I give it a ***. Next Weeks episode look awesome.

vaberella
August 18th, 2006, 08:11 PM
2/10

This was an utter disappointment. It was so boring. I mean I'm all in support of Weir Centric eps, but darn. I wanted it to end...and it didn't end soon enough. I mean this was long and dreary. I loved all the other eps..and gave them high ratings...but Weir...and everyone else. Oooh..bad.

Torri--did a great job in acting. Weir was... Weir at home. I mean, I don't know what I was supposed to get out of the ep, except when we were with the team. So seeing her in her world , it was whatever. I liked her and Jack---I might be a Jack/Weir shipper for sure in this.

As for John---I liked his characterization, but it wasn't what I expected. Based on reviews from people I was expecting lots of Shweir love, didn't get that at all. John was even interrupted.

I do however liked that the fact that again we see that John would risk his life for his team--just another moment of proof. So that was excellent.

Was it boring to death yes, it doesn't get words of poetry from me. It was a bomb!

My sister said don't call her to watch stupid things like that..and she is right!! :(

2/10



:sheppardanime23: :teylaanime08: :mckayanime03:
Teyla in a McShep!

lissa1000
August 18th, 2006, 08:12 PM
Wow, that was really good. Who knew they had it in them.

smushybird
August 18th, 2006, 08:12 PM
Mildly entertaining episode, a little predictable. Enjoyed the teamwork and TH did a good job. I suppose the Weir/Shep shippers enjoyed it.
I'm glad Weir did her part to save herself. She came across as a stronger person than she usually does.
She could use some self-defense lessons from Teyla.

gambit
August 18th, 2006, 08:13 PM
I'm a big fan of Weir, but I was a little bored with this episode. Probably because I read the spoilers so I knew what was going on whole time. One question though, was that John "haunting" her the whole time?

Kem Rixen
August 18th, 2006, 08:15 PM
Ehhh, I didn't like it too much. I didn't have any idea what this show was going to be about going into it as I was paying way too much attention to the 200 hype, and I can see why...This episode wasn't very strong and having Shep not be infected because they were too busy seemed like nonsense. That said, the first twenty or so minutes I thought were very cool, I just wished it could've stayed that way. Oh well, there is bound to be at least one bad episode a season, I suppose this one is it.

Willow'sCat
August 18th, 2006, 08:18 PM
OK as I am not really wanting to watch this can someone actually give a more detailed review? I know most don't until much later but please I really need to know if I should be bothering with this ep.

Also some info on Jack would be nice and yes was there any McKay in this?

Please. :)

MarshAngel
August 18th, 2006, 08:21 PM
It wasn't original but I don't hold that against it. I loved that Weir got her own episode. I thought Torri did a great job and I'm glad she finally had the opportunity to really act. I didn't find it completely boring but would I have been disappointed to miss it? not particularly.

I hated the ending. The reasoning behind what happened to her and how she got over it just made no sense. She killed the nanites with self confidence? come on. John calling her back reminded me of that kiss at the end of The Matrix... total fairy tale sleeping beauty nonsense. Hearing him is one thing, having him show up in her warped reality, a bit much.

But the thing that really made me go wtf is this whole nanite and wraith nonsense. If each nanite cell, is compelled to attack the Wraith as a part of their basic programming, what the hell have they been doing for the past 10,000 years or so? I hope they actually adress that because as if this moment, it makes no sense.

miju
August 18th, 2006, 08:22 PM
I'm confused. Why was Weir infected with nanites and no one else? :confused:

MarshAngel
August 18th, 2006, 08:23 PM
I'm confused. Why was Weir infected with nanites and no one else? :confused:
She's the one Niam grabbed after his reset.

ToasterOnFire
August 18th, 2006, 08:27 PM
I liked this ep because it gave Elizabeth more screentime and Torri some decent material to work with, but overall it was...really boring. Really. I felt like this ep went on forever. :mckay:

I didn't quite understand the nanites either - they were trying to get Weir to give up? Wha? Why would they need to bother with that? Just smelled like a plot device to have those cliched scenes where Shep urged her to fight. And Shep contaminating himself to try and get through to Elizabeth was a rash and dumb decision. Yeah, let's have the head of military put himself in a dangerous spot when the head of Atlantis is already compromised. Oh my bad, that's exactly what happened in Long Goodbye. Should have seen that one coming. :rolleyes:


WC, Rodney and the rest of the team were in the infirmary the whole time trying to figure out what was going on and how to save Elizabeth. Jack showed up a handful of times in Elizabeth's reality, same military rank but the Stargate program was completely nonexistant. They had met when Elizabeth had acted as a diplomat for a nonproliferation treaty, IIRC.

smushybird
August 18th, 2006, 08:32 PM
Yes, McKay and co. were in it, working together to save Liz. McKay, Beckett, and Shep were fun working together to come up with ideas (tho no real banter, because they were being all serious and focused). Most of the ep was Liz slowly piecing together what had happened to her, a predictable process with some mild horror movie-type moments now and then.... Some nice Jack O'Neill here and there, interacting with Liz to the extent that it seems to be inspiring some Jack/Liz 'ship, but I didn't see any particular chemistry there. As a fan of McKay, primarily, I wouldn't be in any particular rush to see this ep....tho' I'd probably watch it sometime if I had nothing better to do. He had his cute moments (doesn't he always?) It was also very Shep/Weir 'shippy and that's not something I personally care for, either.

SG1, on the other hand, was hilarious. Terrifically silly, but still--just funny. Lots of affectionate jabs at us fans. My favorite bit was the slashy Jack and Daniel moment. :) Not even subtexty.... Just awesome.

lord-anubis
August 18th, 2006, 08:35 PM
i really dident like this ep not even RDA could save it. all i keeped thinking was this is just like that one ep of deepspace 9 were they tryed to tell siko that nonhing about deepsapce9 was real.

RoryJ
August 18th, 2006, 08:36 PM
Loved it. Some moments towards the middle dragged, but overall a great episode for Torri and for Elizabeth to test her own mettle. RDA was fantastic, and I actually thought the nanites going immediately after the Wraith DNA was cool. I want that explored. *taps foot patiently*

The ending was fantastic. Seeing Elizabeth fight her way through, but not being really alone, was very cool. It was also interesting to see her trust torn between John and Jack. Again, RDA was awesome (at least he had screentime *glares at 200*).

Willow, there was very little Rodney, and what little there was had him being an insensitive jerk, so I suggest skipping it. ;) Though there was one priceless comment about a mirror that had me ROTFL.

John bursting through the plastic was in character - like he'd care if he was infected. however, would it have killed them to come up with a better excuse as to why he wasn't infected? How about the nanites had to adapt only to Weir's DNA in order to replicate out of desperation. okay, still stupid, but not as bad as "they were too busy". Meh. If that's the only thing that bugs me, then so be it.

The transition from Elizabeth sleeping in her hospital room to the first time we see her in quarantine was very well done. I think I like this director; we should keep him around. I also loved how the visions ended up being John, but she was afraid at first and took her meds. The scene where the team was begging her to fight being juxtaposed with Elizabeth throwing her pills into the toilet? Beautifully done. Again, I'm feeling the director love. :cool:

Overall a day in the sun for Weir/Torri fans, but also a good punching bag for anti-Weirs, so I'm going to keep away from any further comments and enjoy the 200/RDA/TRW bliss. :D


Some nice Jack O'Neill here and there, interacting with Liz to the extent that it seems to be inspiring some Jack/Liz 'ship
'Tis my secret ship. ;)


My favorite bit was the slashy Jack and Daniel moment
Off topic, but had to comment since I don't post in the SG-1 side of things. That scene was freaking hysterical. Awesome.

Willow'sCat
August 18th, 2006, 08:42 PM
WC, Rodney and the rest of the team were in the infirmary the whole time trying to figure out what was going on and how to save Elizabeth. Jack showed up a handful of times in Elizabeth's reality, same military rank but the Stargate program was completely nonexistant. They had met when Elizabeth had acted as a diplomat for a nonproliferation treaty, IIRC.So I am thinking you need to be a total Weir fan and at least like the idea of Shep/Weir shipping to like this episode? :S Oh well, there is always CG and M&MM to look forward to... I hope. :cool: Thanks Toaster. ;)

smushybird, I was never going to miss the 200th SG-1 ep, how could I? I am hearing good things about it; and yes I am thinking TRW is one for watching during the hiatus. ;)

MarshAngel
August 18th, 2006, 08:44 PM
I just can't get past the nanites. What was their goal exactly? Take over her brain and what? And if they had enough intelligence to get to her brain and create a delusion, why the hell would they give up just because she saw through their plan? Why not just move on to a new body part and attack her lungs or her liver or some vital organ. Aren't they also programmed to be basically violent? They just gave up, just like that? What did her brain do electrocute them?

brdmacfreak
August 18th, 2006, 08:46 PM
Say marsh Angel, Did you by chance get to see the code on the web that was displayed during a commercial? I tried the url, but perhaps it expired. Idea...Info??? Thanks

lissa1000
August 18th, 2006, 08:47 PM
So I am thinking you need to be a total Weir fan and at least like the idea of Shep/Weir shipping to like this episode?
It didn't seem all that shippy to me. It was serious and a bit more mature than we normally see on the Stargates. I think you'll like it.

Pocus
August 18th, 2006, 08:48 PM
I thought it was a good episode. Torri did a fantastic job and I could really feel her stress. I did like finding out that the watch that sits on Elizabeth's desk is from her father. Just a little backstory touch that was neat.

Did like John breaking the barrier when everyone else seemed unwilling to touch her. No nanites for him? Uh, I guess I can let that pass.

Elizabeth defeating the nanites thru sheer will power, I can suspend belief for that. Don't like it, but I will let it pass.

Loved how Sheppard/shadow kept appearing in her dream world. Loved how when he was yellling at her to fight she was dumping the pills in the toilet. And the biggest "LOVED" part for me was when she had to choose between Jack (Earth) and John (Atlantis). She still wasn't sure which was the Real World but she went with her gut feeling.

Did like seeing Sedge. She is a great little actress doggie.

I can't explain why I did like this episode since the two of the main action parts need a suspension of belief, but it somehow struck a chord for me.

MarshAngel
August 18th, 2006, 08:52 PM
Say marsh Angel, Did you by chance get to see the code on the web that was displayed during a commercial? I tried the url, but perhaps it expired. Idea...Info??? Thanks

Sorry. Can't help. Didn't even notice it because I didn't watch the commercials.

ToasterOnFire
August 18th, 2006, 08:55 PM
So I am thinking you need to be a total Weir fan and at least like the idea of Shep/Weir shipping to like this episode? :S
Yes, I think if you like both of those things there's a better chance you'll enjoy this ep. Conversely, if you don't care for either you probably won't miss much by skipping it. :)

(btw, where did you find that pic of Gero (?) in an Atlantis uniform interviewing DH (?) in your sig? I must have missed that clip.)


Regarding SciFi's blatant attempt to get viewers to watch live and boost ratings the code that was displayed to access something special on scifi.com, I've been bouncing around forums and it seems like no one can access it the webpage. Way to go, SciFi. :rolleyes:

Chailyn
August 18th, 2006, 08:57 PM
OK as I am not really wanting to watch this can someone actually give a more detailed review? I know most don't until much later but please I really need to know if I should be bothering with this ep.

Also some info on Jack would be nice and yes was there any McKay in this?

Please. :)


I'll try. :)

Weir wakes up in a psych hospital outside of D.C. She is told that she collapsed during final negotiations with a group of African leaders while discussing nuclear weapons. She doesn't buy it and requests to talk to Jack O'Neill. O'Neill knows nothing about the SGC, or so he says. She refuses the drugs they try to put her on, but when she starts having hallucinations she begins to doubt the last two years in Atlantis.

Basically, this was a character ep. There wasn't big explosions or any war ships, so some people may have gotten bored. I liked it and thought Weir needed this growth. Personally, I loved it when she clocked that attendent. The girl really put up a good fight. (Not quite Teyla, of course.) We also met her mother.

We find out that after Niam grabbed her, he transferred some of his nanites into her. They're spreading throughout her body. Beckett, with McKay's help, figures out that they can isolate the nanites by injecting her with Wraith cells, which will act as a tumor. Because the nanites were created to destroy the Wraith they should go for the bait. (Beckett and McKay were great together discussing "brilliant" ideas. I wonder exactly what Rodney does in front of mirrors now. ;) McKay's my favorite too, and while he wasn't the main star of this one, his conversation with Beckett was priceless.)

However, some of the nanites have started replicating using her organic brain tissue. It basically becomes Weir's consciousness v. Niam's consciousness. Organic V. organic. They're both fighting for her body. Niam has been using Jack's form to trick her.

Sheppard doesn't give up on her and urges her to keep fighting, exposing himself to the nanites in the process. McKay isn't happy at all by his reckless behavior. Weir wins. The ending may have seemed a little easy, but the rest of the ep certainly made up for it. Sheppard's shadow "thing" throughout was pretty cool. I thought they did a great job with the subtle suspense. The direction was top notch, and I was really impressed with the lighting and music. Also, I don't read spoilers so I come into it fresh. Like I said, this was a subtle, psychological ep. It wasn't trying to hit you with a frying pan. ;)

Willow'sCat
August 18th, 2006, 09:01 PM
Yes, I think if you like both of those things there's a better chance you'll enjoy this ep. Conversely, if you don't care for either you probably won't miss much by skipping it.Well I asked around a few other place and that seems to be the consensus so... skipping.

(btw, where did you find that pic of Gero (?) in an Atlantis uniform interviewing DH (?) in your sig? I must have missed that clip.).

Oh that is on the Season 2, Vol 5; UK DVD release, Martin decided he wanted to be an actor *his dream* and he gets tips from David on acting and then he has a looooooooooooong hug with Joe. It is really funny. :D

Thanks Chailyn :)

smushybird
August 18th, 2006, 09:01 PM
So I am thinking you need to be a total Weir fan and at least like the idea of Shep/Weir shipping to like this episode? :S Oh well, there is always CG and M&MM to look forward to... I hope. :cool: Thanks Toaster. ;)

You don't have to be a total Weir fan, but it helps. :D And I didn't think the 'shippy stuff was anything but the usual you've-got-to-fight-back pleading, etc. Nothing that you don't see in a million fan fics.

And I disagree that Rodney was an insensitive jerk. He was totally Rodney in his concern for Weir and wanting to come up with a cure. I agree that the resolution was not very convincing; it all seemed mainly set up for the 'ship stuff between Sheppard and Weir. When she kept seeing flashes of him, I'm surprised she didn't recognize the hair. :D

The Real World was more an all-Liz ep than GUP was an all-Rodney ep.




smushybird, I was never going to miss the 200th SG-1 ep, how could I? I am hearing good things about it; and yes I am thinking TRW is one for watching during the hiatus. ;)

Oh yeah, I know--I didn't think you'd skip that one (tho another fan I watched it with didn't like it at all). I don't usually ever post in the SG1 threads, either, but I commented on SG1 because it was so much fun and the slash was just delicious. :D

p.s. The Sci Fi site code thing was idiotic. You couldn't get to the site for love or money. I still have no idea what that was about. Now I guess they know just how many fans SGA has.

Steven_the_Atlantean
August 18th, 2006, 09:06 PM
I'll try. :)

Weir wakes up in a psych hospital outside of D.C. She is told that she collapsed during final negotiations with a group of African leaders while discussing nuclear weapons. She doesn't buy it and requests to talk to Jack O'Neill. O'Neill knows nothing about the SGC, or so he says. She refuses the drugs they try to put her on, but when she starts having hallucinations she begins to doubt the last two years in Atlantis.

Basically, this was a character ep. There wasn't big explosions or any war ships, so some people may have gotten bored. I liked it and thought Weir needed this growth. Personally, I loved it when she clocked that attendent. The girl really put up a good fight. (Not quite Teyla, of course.) We also met her mother.

We find out that after Niam grabbed her, he transferred some of his nanites into her. They're spreading throughout her body. Beckett, with McKay's help, figures out that they can isolate the nanites by injecting her with Wraith cells, which will act as a tumor. Because the nanites were created to destroy the Wraith they should go for the bait. (Beckett and McKay were great together discussing "brillant" ideas. I wonder exactly what Rodney does in front of mirrors now. ;) McKay's my favorite too, and while he wasn't the main star of this one, his conversation with Beckett was priceless.)

However, some of the nanites have started replicating using her organic brain tissue. It basically becomes Weir's consciousness v. Niam's consciousness. Organic V. organic. They're both fighting for her body. Niam has been using Jack's form to trick her.

Sheppard doesn't give up on her and urges her to keep fighting, exposing himself to the nanites in the process. McKay isn't happy at all by his reckless behavior. Weir wins. The ending may have seemed a little easy, but the rest of the ep certainly made up for it. Sheppard's shadow "thing" throughout was pretty cool. I thought they did a great job with the subtle suspense. The direction was top notch, and I was really impressed with the lighting and music. Also, I don't read spoilers so I come into it fresh. Like I said, this was a subtle, pschological ep. It wasn't trying to hit you with a frying pan. ;)

Thank you very much. That was an awesome description, a lot of imagery used and I loved reading your perspective.

Thanks for that Chailyn!:)

Suzotchka
August 18th, 2006, 09:08 PM
I just have to say how much I loved this episode. It was very well written and Torri did an excellent job. She deserves an award for this episode.

Ironic
August 18th, 2006, 09:11 PM
Fantastic episode. I love character based episodes, and this one is my favorite of the season - which says something, because Sateda was so awesome, but this is almost exactly the opposite of that. While Sateda was all about action and mayham, I liked that TRW decided to go with the psychological warfare instead. Very creepy, and very nicely done.

Torri Higginson's performance was impressive, and I especially liked the scene where she's inching towards the door, apprehension totally apparent on her face, and then the orderly notices and stands in her way - she plows right into him! Nicely done! I almost didn't know Weir had it in her! Also loved her quiet breakdown. Nice display of emotions throughout the entire episode.

Jack was a very nice addition to the episode! Although, how can one go wrong with Jack? Best line was the one about fantasies. Ah, Jack, if you only knew how many women (and a few men) truely did fantasize about you. *dreamy sigh* Is it me, or did Jack have more lines in this episode than he did in "200"?

The plot - been done before, but I still enjoyed the hell out of it. It's like Alternate reality episodes - no matter what, I'll tune in and watch. I love the glimpse into other possibilities. This one was nicely messing with your head!

I love that the PTB are remembering that Carson is a full time cast member as much as the next man over. I love that Carson, Rodney, and John were there for support the entire time.

I love the Rodney-Carson duo. They vibe with each other on a geek level, and I am continuely amazed that David Hewlett has chemistry with every single cast member on Atlantis - no hold's bar. I loved their way of dealing with Elizabeth's situation was to get into scientific mode.

But John took the cake, and unsurprisingly (especially since I knew the spoilers beforehand), the main focus of concern back at Atlantis was from him. John was to Elizabeth in this episode what she was to John in "Conversion." They served as each other's touch with reality. I loved that. The scene where he breaks through the quarantine section - against all logic - is largely a mirror to the scene where Elizabeth faces Wraith-bug!John against all logic. Nice symmetry.

On a more shallow note, I do believe Torri is getting hotter by the episode. My God, I want that leather outfit she had! I also appreciated the girly white shirt in the next scene, and the suit she wore to the UN. I like to think of that as the "power suit." Some woman just pull off a suit in a way I envy. Congrats to the clothing department for finally getting her some consistantly nice "Earth" clothes (I'm thinking mainly of the hideous shirt she wore in "Intruder" when Simon broke up with her - urgh! Must scrub that memory from my brain!).

I'm glad that the PTB are finally giving Weir some meaty things to do. It's about damn time. I only hope this trend will continue, because Torri obviously has the chops cut out for it. Season three looks to be promising on that front.

Now, if only the same could be said of Teyla. Hello, PTB, please remember you've got two kick-ass females on the show. Don't forget either one, please!

prion
August 18th, 2006, 09:11 PM
Yes, I think if you like both of those things there's a better chance you'll enjoy this ep. Conversely, if you don't care for either you probably won't miss much by skipping it. :)

(btw, where did you find that pic of Gero (?) in an Atlantis uniform interviewing DH (?) in your sig? I must have missed that clip.)


Regarding SciFi's blatant attempt to get viewers to watch live and boost ratings the code that was displayed to access something special on scifi.com, I've been bouncing around forums and it seems like no one can access it the webpage. Way to go, SciFi. :rolleyes:

I quite liked the episode, subtle is a good way to describe it. Plot's been done to death, but I still like it.

Anyway, to get to the exclusive content

http://www.scifi.com/pulse/
go to MOST VIEWED - choose SGA season 3 trailer (you must choose SGA)
twiddle thumbs as video loads
in bottom right hand corner you get a column, find SGA content - click on that
next, choose EXCLUSIVE CONTENT

and voila! has spoilers for THE RETURN

Joe talks, Torri talks, the dog talks, er, well, it's there :)

FoolishPleasure
August 18th, 2006, 09:12 PM
I really liked this episode, mainly because Torri doesn't get much of a chance to exercise her acting chops, and she did a good job of it tonight. There were some Shep/Weir romantic hints, but I like those two together, and it wasn't so "in your face" to irritate the noromo crowd.

The nanite thing was iffy and I didn't quite swallow the bit on how she could fight them off herself, but it had to end somehow.

The one glaring issue was how the nanites were so quick to attack Wraith tissue and destroy it. They were programmed years ago to aggressively fight the Wraith, yet the Asurans sat on that silly planet all this time, building a huge city and ship, without ever going after the Wraith, and all they can say is, "We'll get them in due time." Sort of a contradiction in aggressive traits.

Hey- was that BamBam as one of the orderlies in the asylum??

Overall a pretty good episode, but it had to be tough to follow SG1 tonight. That episode was incredible.

vaberella
August 18th, 2006, 09:16 PM
OK as I am not really wanting to watch this can someone actually give a more detailed review? I know most don't until much later but please I really need to know if I should be bothering with this ep.

Also some info on Jack would be nice and yes was there any McKay in this?

Please. :)
Sorry. here's a not so brief summary...:D

Weir wakes up in a room, in a mental hospital thinking she's just gotten back to earth, when in the dream scape she never even left earth. So the Doc guy, is Ferris Bueller's best bud, yeah the one that trashed his dad's car! He's tell her she never left the planet and she had a mental break down, after Simon = Narim, was killed after they came home from a dinner date. At least he didn't go on an empty stomach. :S

She doesn't believe it. She proclaims that she was from Atlantis and can't believe that she dreamed up 2 years of her life. Then FB's bud is like saying, 'Yo, dog. A dream can live a lifetime, but no probs, you only got 2years out.'

She's like...'I wanna see jack, that's my boy! He'll be letting me know the 411.' So she tells FB's bud that she needs Jack O'Niell, and Jack doesn't get what's going on, since the last time he saw her was during a meeting for non-proliferation treaty. So needless to say, Jack is no help and totally weirded out. Of course these things are nanites attacking her---oh this comes out later. Any-ways, computer glitch and Weir get's her first glimpse besides not believing them, that something might be up. So she's like, 'Adios Jack, you can't help me dog.'

She tries to escape the first time...and then she b**** slaps an orderly but gets drugged and dragged back. She then meets her mom who has great taste in clothes and starts believing that maybe Atlantis is not real. She plays along, as my sister said....'Finally she catches on.' But she's being drugged the whole time.

We also see Weir is deathly afraid of plastic coverings, shadows behind fuzzy glasses and possibly sheets. :D But no worries, every one can predictably guess that the shadow was John. Yes...it was John or it could be Beckett or Mckay. I say this for early on, because we're given a masculine shadow and all three of them were haunting around the bed. Ronon wasn't that keen on getting too close. Probably afraid of cooties!;) :D

Anyway we find out in that scene, when we're back on Atlantis..Beckett gets a whole new hospital wing which is all dark and mysterious..and I wasn't sure if Weir was behind glass or plastic, we find out it's plastic. Anyway, the new hospital wing or quarantine section was rad. And we find out that Weir is infected by nanites that Niam put in her when he attacked her at the end of Progeny. Beckett gets this great idea, it was like woahgasmic, to get rid of nanites in her system we give her a Wraith skin flap.

Me, I said have Teyla touch her, but unfortunately that wasn't used. The idea was have the skin flap there since the asurans were nanites meant to target wraith. It sort of worked..but I'll get into that later.

We go through several boring minutes of Weir walking around and talking to people, sleeping and kissing her dog, lots of Jack/Weir here.... I mean we see her and her mum, Jack, and she's pretty much living like she never left. Then shadowman reappears, your guess is as good as mine, as too who it could be?! Maybe it was Grodin?! ;) :D

Then she walks to where the shadowman was and sees a weird looking closet in some room, opens it and sees blue liquid. She's weirded out, and wants to walk in...but surprisingly, or unsurprisingly; the orderlies take her back.

She wakes up and Jack is there...I love Jack/Weir...yes lots of Jack---that's a power ship right there. Anyway she couldn't believe it... Then we go back and John is talking to her and stuff.

Oh there was a moment where she dumped the drugs the doctor gave her cause she was taking it during the day; John's motivational speaking came through and showed her the light in her dark.

Personally, I strongly believe that John should take on a future career as motivational speaker, because his comments of discomfort were soothing and enspiring for Weir. For me, he was just sexy---plenty of zpm shots. Onwards and forwards.

So she starts figuring out, because they did that whole nanite zap like HZ, and it killed 95%, it seems apparently these nanites are pretty smart and didn't fall for the red herring or Wraith skin, sooooooooo; they were in her brain and started replicating. But this was the great part, so we see that Weir's immune system is back up because now majority of the nanites are gone and her immunity can fight off the other replicating ones.

John then gets pissed...as per his usual. He talks to her some more, she becomes Rambette and gets out of some arm bands they give her, kicks an orderly in the chest, runs to elevator a la terminator, and goes down to SG1 underground place...or whatever.

She's fighting her way, flash to Beckett's new wingn and John get's pissed per his usual; he goes into infected area, touches Weir's arm, sends out of prayer...'Fight Lizzie, you can do it..break the bonds that are you tieing you down'---paraphrasing. He gets pulled out by some hazmats and put in quarantine. But it was enough to show her the light and she follows John's---now visible manifestation through the tunnels of SG1, and shows up at the gate.

Ah, yes, the drama doesn't end there....there is more to await for it can't be so easy to end the ep. Anyway, she makes it to gate at SG1, yes this is all in her dream world-----she has a vivid imagination. Right, so onwards, she is confronted first by Jack, and she's like, 'Fool me once, shame on you; fool me twice---well you can't fool me twice', paraphrasing. Then Jack turns into Ferris Buellar's bud, and he's like, 'You can't go, we're just getting to know one another.'
Then he changes to, Niam and is like...'No, your here to stay, I love you Lizzie, don't leave me like this.' She's like, 'Your not cute enough for me,'----paraphrasing--Shep's waiting :D :rolleyes:. Then she walks through him...it was really sad, he turned to dust--she walks through the gate.

That's when she opens her eyes, ala sleeping beauty, to the wonderful face of her princes in waiting....yes you guessed it. Mckay and Beckett. They worked real hard to save her life---and John gave moral support. And we got Weir back from--never never land.

Oh then, surprises of all surprises, it appears Weir went shopping in the dream and came back with this super cute black top. She looked great, had a touching quarantine moment....a la balcony with Shep---where they talked about being quarantined and what the food was like. :D

Hope that helps WC!

Actually through my recounting which was fun and, I came to appreciate it more..it has now gone up my estimation to a shocking of all shockings...


5/10


:sheppard: :teyla: :mckay:
Teyla in a McShep Sundae!!:D

Captain-Peregrine
August 18th, 2006, 09:29 PM
Anyway, to get to the exclusive content

http://www.scifi.com/pulse/
go to MOST VIEWED - choose SGA season 3 trailer (you must choose SGA)
twiddle thumbs as video loads
in bottom right hand corner you get a column, find SGA content - click on that
next, choose EXCLUSIVE CONTENT

and voila! has spoilers for THE RETURN

Joe talks, Torri talks, the dog talks, er, well, it's there :)

Thanks, I hope this works for me 'cause I've been trying to get into it all night.

As for the episode, which I'm rewatching right now, I actually really liked it. I love Elizabeth Weir so I've been looking forward to a Weir-centric episode since day-one. The only thing that sort of bugged me--and it's a silly thing--is that Weir was doing her best to convince these people, but she didn't even try looking up John Sheppard or Rodney McKay or Carson Beckett or any of those folks to see if they were real and see if they knew each other at all. That just seemed a little silly to me--that's what I would have done right off the bat, but then, that's just me... lol

Otherwise, I loved it. It definately had that strange nightmarish quality to it which made it really creepy and surreal. Plust I love character-centric episodes and, like I said, Weir is among my favorites.

On an actor's note, I thought Torri did a bang-up job. It's hard to play a decently crazy person (I personally thought Micheal Shanks was the only person who could pull it off in SG-1), but she really pulled it off well. I was so impressed and I just so enjoyed it.

vaberella
August 18th, 2006, 09:32 PM
Now, if only the same could be said of Teyla. Hello, PTB, please remember you've got two kick-ass females on the show. Don't forget either one, please!

Heh, no worries..Teyla gets one ep for sure dedicated to her, I know of. And there is supposedly another and I think one more---we see heavy all Teyla.


:sheppard: :teyla: :mckay:
Teyla--totally McShepping!! :D
Naughty, Naughty!! :D

stubadingdong
August 18th, 2006, 09:35 PM
In a nutshell, I thought they wrote well around a weak plot and bad science. The acting was great. It did drag a little, but weak plots will do that I suppose. It was a great opportunity for Torri and that was fun to watch.

As others have mentioned, it couldn't quite shine in the afterglow of SG-1's 200.

the fifth man
August 18th, 2006, 09:35 PM
I thoroughly enjoyed this episode. Loved RDA being in it as much as he was, and Weir was great in it. I'd give it a solid 8/10.:)

sparklegem
August 18th, 2006, 09:37 PM
Code's working now. Maybe they were waiting for west coast to see it?

Ironic
August 18th, 2006, 09:38 PM
Heh, no worries..Teyla gets one ep for sure dedicated to her, I know of. And there is supposedly another and I think one more---we see heavy all Teyla.


:sheppard: :teyla: :mckay:
Teyla--totally McShepping!! :D
Naughty, Naughty!! :D
I'll hold my breath, but the second half of season two is so frakking long away! Who's brilliant idea was it to delay the second half by six months?!

Anyway, it's nice to hear that Teyla is getting an episode (decidely will not grumble about the fact that it's so far away, and only one episode, but . . . ) Err, what was I saying? Oh yes, I truly hope that they give Teyla a meaty episode like this one! Torri hit this one out of the park, and I loved Weir's representation. I honestly think the PTB are finally getting a hang of her character, especially Carl Binder. His protrayal of Weir is unparalleled, and you can tell he honestly loves writing her character! I hope the same can be said when they do the Teyla episode!

khd
August 18th, 2006, 09:43 PM
I thought this episode was great. Weir seemed so fragile. Usually she's very strong; though at times timid of it, she is always in control of her power, but in this episode she was so out of control that we got to see another aspect of her.
Also, Rick was great in this episode. It was the first time that I've seen the "Real" O'Neill since season 8.

Chailyn
August 18th, 2006, 09:53 PM
Thank you very much. That was an awesome description, a lot of imagery used and I loved reading your perspective.

Thanks for that Chailyn!:)

You're welcome. :p

This wasn't my favorite ep of the season, but I still enjoyed it. I really liked that we got more characterization on Weir--watching her get ready to start negotiations again, kicking some serious butt (even if it was all in her head ;) ), etc. I also liked that they put the card game in there. After all, we know she likes to play cards on her laptop. The game was a clever detail. Mainly, I appreciated that they didn't just ignore last week's episode and move on to the next idea. Niam grabbing her had repercussions. Obviously, the Asurans weren't just telling him to strangle her.

Oh, and Torri rocked. She amazed me. :)

Arative
August 18th, 2006, 09:54 PM
Good episode, some powerful material for Torri to work with and I thought she pulled it off rather well. I know a lot of people had been making comparisons to SG-1 episodes but I just didn't see it, other than the gate in the door scene. I am confused as to why the nanites were gone when she won. Perhaps subconsiously the nanites were making her immune system not react to them by making her take her meds and think the stargate program wasn't real, least that is the only thing I can think of.

I liked Shep in this episode, carries over from Sateda, where he considers them his family and will do anything for them and never give up on any of them.

Anyone else want gate symbol playing cards like me? Although we probably wouldn't be able to play with a full deck.

Sela
August 18th, 2006, 09:54 PM
I thought it was a good episode. Torri did a fantastic job and I could really feel her stress. I did like finding out that the watch that sits on Elizabeth's desk is from her father. Just a little backstory touch that was neat.

Did like John breaking the barrier when everyone else seemed unwilling to touch her. No nanites for him? Uh, I guess I can let that pass.

Elizabeth defeating the nanites thru sheer will power, I can suspend belief for that. Don't like it, but I will let it pass.

Loved how Sheppard/shadow kept appearing in her dream world. Loved how when he was yellling at her to fight she was dumping the pills in the toilet. And the biggest "LOVED" part for me was when she had to choose between Jack (Earth) and John (Atlantis). She still wasn't sure which was the Real World but she went with her gut feeling.

Did like seeing Sedge. She is a great little actress doggie.

I can't explain why I did like this episode since the two of the main action parts need a suspension of belief, but it somehow struck a chord for me.
I agree with everything you said about this episode. There were some things you just had to let go of and when you did, the show worked for you.

The writers gave Torri some great material to work with and she was able to show some real depth in this part. What's up guys? That's some quality writing there in the last few episodes. I hope you're not getting our hopes up for the good stuff continuing and then let us down...

Loved the way Jack was worked into the story. It didn't feel forced and he and Weir worked well together. Interesting, doncha think, that her mind associated Jack with home?

Oh and just for the record, I know the show is called "Atlantis" but if I had John at one end of a hall and Jack at the other....oh well.

I'm just saying...he's not called the Silver Fox for nuthin'.

Verity5
August 18th, 2006, 09:58 PM
This must be the most boring episode ever. The Weir character has absolutely no chemistry with either JF or RDA. Sadly, Ms Higginson is a very good actress, she did fine, but this story reeked.

Nothing was really revealed about Weir's essential character. Poor Sheppard was once again the cheerleader willing to die for his team (we have known this since season one, that horse is dead people). The entire 1st half had none of the regular cast in it, and the "nanite virus" was a very weak link. Giving more thought and air time to the cause and fight of the nanites may have helped, but who knows?

And yet again we have another "linked" show. What happened to revealing character through actions, as was done in the first eight seasons of SG1. There have been precious few stand alone episodes.

I am truly disappointed with this episode. Maybe next week will be better.

V5

RoryJ
August 18th, 2006, 10:00 PM
Then he changes to, Niam and is like...'No, your here to stay, I love you Lizzie, don't leave me like this.' She's like, 'Your not cute enough for me,'----paraphrasing--Shep's waiting :D :rolleyes:.

OMG, that made me spit out my tea. :lol:

As to the pace and action: I just thought of something while posting in another thread. I get how someone who's watched the gates for a long time can get bored with this episode, because it really doesn't have nearly the amount of action or effects of an average episode. But it was a slow-burn episode, one very akin to Elizabeth's personality. Look at the frenzy of words that was Duet or the hectic GUP for Rodney - both very compatible with his slightly neurotic personality. Sateda was just blasting away with action, and almost oppressively silent most of the time as well. Again, this is very much who Ronon is - a man of action, not always a man of words. And so TRW felt very fair to who Elizabeth is - it unraveled slowly, intensely, every moment being felt and questioned. It just felt right to have her personal episode go down like TRW. In many ways it felt similar to SG-1's Grace, which is another episode that I adore. You see right into the core of two women who don't usually reveal too much about themselves; you can see the wheels turning in their heads. Loved it.

ToasterOnFire
August 18th, 2006, 10:23 PM
I dunno, there's a very fine, subjective line between a slow burn ep and a dull one. A well written and executed drama/internal conflict ep can be just as gripping as an ep with guns and space battles ("I do not understand why everything in this script must inevitably explode" :D). I just don't feel like RW had enough there to keep my interest, and the whole explanation or lack thereof of the nanites was very poorly handled.

L.A. Doyle
August 18th, 2006, 10:35 PM
Oh and just for the record, I know the show is called "Atlantis" but if I had John at one end of a hall and Jack at the other....oh well.

I'm just saying...he's not called the Silver Fox for nuthin'.

I know! Jack or John? John or Jack? Decisions, decisions. :jack: :sheppard:

Torri was amazing in this episode! I really liked it.

Ironic
August 18th, 2006, 10:36 PM
I dunno, there's a very fine, subjective line between a slow burn ep and a dull one. A well written and executed drama/internal conflict ep can be just as gripping as an ep with guns and space battles ("I do not understand why everything in this script must inevitably explode" :D). I just don't feel like RW had enough there to keep my interest, and the whole explanation or lack thereof of the nanites was very poorly handled.
As is largely the case for any Stargate episode, you have to overlook the glarring errors and appreciate what they get right. The one thing I think TPTB rarely falter in is their characters. I love every damn one of them. When TPTB put in the effort, they really know how to make them shine. Sloppy writing can diminish the overall effect of the episode, but I still walk away loving it - if only because of the cast/characters.

I loved No Man's land for Weir. I loved Misbegotton for Carson's performance. I loved Sateda for Ronon (and Shep). I thought Irresistable sucked, but I couldn't argue against the fact that everybody in the main cast was hilarious in their performances. "Progeny" was a great team episode, and I think the thing I walked away from the most was the subtle Weir/Teyla interaction. I've been craving that for years, so now I get all drooly when I see even a morsel of it.

Each episode had it's weaknesses. I'm sure several people here could list them in detail. But the characters - the characters made it shine. TRW was no different - in fact, it was better than regular.

I'm hoping next week, Sheppard gets to dig his teeth into some good material!

Reichiru
August 18th, 2006, 10:44 PM
The first 30 minutes of this episode were fantastic. Torri did an amazing job and I applaud her. It was nice to see a totally different side of Weir. Usually she holds everything in and sometimes you feel almost as if she's cold in her need to show she is a strong leader. To see her vulnerable and scared and heck! even cry was so refreshing and made me like her character soo much more. It was nice to see her doing some fighting and getting whumped too.

The last half wasn't as great and felt pretty rushed in my opinion. It felt like they were just trying to hurry up and make up a solution.

And the whole Sheppard part made me want to gag. I know he's the lead and all, but they might as well have just put up cardboard cutouts of everyone else. I really think it should have been a group effort to try and get her out of the coma.

But all in all I really enjoyed this episode. Yay for Torri! :D

smushybird
August 18th, 2006, 11:01 PM
There were some Shep/Weir romantic hints, but I like those two together, and it wasn't so "in your face" to irritate the noromo crowd.

Eh. It was pretty in-your-face. It put me off, anyway.

Mitchell82
August 18th, 2006, 11:20 PM
I absolutly loved this episode. So great to see Tori showcase her talents. I thought the story was good and I was not confused. I think this show is getting better and better.

NotAscended
August 18th, 2006, 11:34 PM
I'm surprised no one else felt like they were revisiting the similar "psych ward in your head" plot from Buffy.

Nonetheless, I really enjoyed the episode and didn't realize exactly why until I read this comment:



The transition from Elizabeth sleeping in her hospital room to the first time we see her in quarantine was very well done. I think I like this director; we should keep him around. I also loved how the visions ended up being John, but she was afraid at first and took her meds. The scene where the team was begging her to fight being juxtaposed with Elizabeth throwing her pills into the toilet? Beautifully done. Again, I'm feeling the director love. :cool:



It is really a beautifully directed and edited episode. Little details like the lighting on the actors and the seamless transitions really made a less than original plotline still leave me pleased with the episode.

And when Elizabeth sums it up at the end that these nanites are more insidious than she ever imagined, I agreed with her sense of horror. By the end of the episode, I was seeing the characters in her mental world as personifications of the nanites in their attempt to attack her and survive, making them a much more scary enemy than just the Asurans in their human form.

aAnubiSs
August 18th, 2006, 11:55 PM
2nd worst ep ever of Atlantis, bested only by a certain Irresistible.

RoryJ
August 18th, 2006, 11:56 PM
I dunno, there's a very fine, subjective line between a slow burn ep and a dull one.

And you're on one side of the line and I'm on the other. :P Though I can agree that two scenes (the one with Weir's mom and the one at her house talking to Jack) were a bit long-ish. But I liked the pace and the intercutting overall.

And even though I may like ship, I still wish we could've seen a little more reaction from everyone. Ronon did a good job of looking like he was feeling the gravity of the situation - for some reason I found myself noticing his face when they were all looking. I wanted more from Teyla, though. I thought Paul did a good job of showing carson's frustration.

FerCryinOutLoud!
August 18th, 2006, 11:58 PM
The beginning of this episode was rather slow and dragged on, but later it picked up. It seemed like a waste for Richard Dean Anderson to be in the episode because we didn't get his wise cracking, snarky acting self. I suppose him acting more serious was the point but StarGate didn't become the show it was by having RDA act all serious all the time. That was what Kurt Russle's job in the StarGate film was.

xfkirsten
August 19th, 2006, 12:08 AM
Absolutely loved this episode! Torri did a fantastic job - it was wonderful to finally have an episode that she could really sink her acting teeth into! I think part of what made it so interesting for me, too, was the little character bits we got - that she wanted to be an astronaut when she was younger, getting to see her mother, her home. It's the little things like that that make characters feel so much more real to me. :)

memnarch
August 19th, 2006, 12:11 AM
I was a little bored with this episode to be honest. Not a lot happened. You could tell it was all not real, but to be fair, is it ever all just something the character just dreamed up? No. That being said, I liked the Dr. Weir development and Torri did a great job. I also liked Alan Ruck, I'm a fan of his from Spin City (geeze, with Richard Kind on earlier you'd think they'd get Michael J. Fox on in a few episodes!). I thought he gave a nice cover story for what was going on, despite the audience's knowledge to the contrary. Once again, not much from Teyla or Ronon, though Beckett and McKay had some nice snappy reparte. And of course Sheppard saves the day/helps someone else save the day despite the fact that no one thinks he can do it. Next week should be interesting, especially given the lack of current info on it. No photos even!

Anyway, 2/4 average episode with some good character stuff for Weir

seizard
August 19th, 2006, 01:25 AM
I'm delurking to put in my two-cents worth.

Everyone seemed to have Loved the episode or they were bored (probably from the lack of explosions). I enjoyed watching an excellent actress stretch her wings a bit and it was lovely.

Well done, Torri.

Also, I'd like to address the ending, which most people seem to think was the writers taking the easy way out regarding Elizabeth defeating the nanites through willpower. I thought that was addressed early on when Carson mentioned her white blood cells.

Correct me if I'm wrong (and I'm sure you will) but didn't Carson state that Elizabeth's white blood cells destroyed the nanites in the petri dish, but that the nanites had somehow convinced her body that they were not a threat?

All John had to do was get Elizabeth to recognize the threat and start fighting back. Then her brain/body would recognize the danger and send in the white blood cells.

Right?

birdieey
August 19th, 2006, 02:30 AM
I don't know what shocks me more how much I hated this episode or how many people seemed to really like it. Granted the show has kinda been all over the map over the last 2 and a half seasons but I don't think I've seen an episode so uninspired, contrived or rehashed as this. Progeny may have been a "reworking" of Unnatural Selection but this was a ripoff of like 10 different shows, movies and day time soaps combined, AND it wasn't even done well.

I'm all for more character development and giving Torri a chance to show off her "skills" but not like this. Pure cheese... the idea of nanites being transferred from Niam is a good one but Beckett furring his brow, sighing deeply and proclaiming "We're losing her" more than once in an episode is unnacceptable. And Sheppard.... good grief..."Like hell we are?" (or something to that effect) Ronan should have shot him (on stun) for his stupidity. The nanites should have been able to smell the wraith on his breath and jumped ship, or at least realized they were fighting a losing battle and transferred to him to try and save themselves.

I'm ranting, I know, but I really hated this episode, hated it!!!:mad:

Vaberella stick with your initial reaction, it was the right one.

bluealien
August 19th, 2006, 02:49 AM
Mind numbingly boring!!


Not just boring but rediculous, bad science and meaningless.

If Weir was infected when Niam touched her, then why wasn't Teyla and Ronan. They both tried to pull Niam off her.

Then Sheppard is also conveniently not infected when he goes in and touches her. Now I don't really get this bit - he just has to tell her to fight and that is enough to get rid of the of all the nanites.:eek:


I really don't mind character eps if done well but this had no substance to it at all and even RDA came across as flat.

Terrible. 2/10

macktheknife
August 19th, 2006, 03:20 AM
Bit of a mindtrip episode. Sorta like "The Sting" on Futurama. Except not as good. Unsuprising, considering The Sting is pretty much my favourite episode of Futurama.

It would have been better if they kept in weirs head the whole time, until she "wins", and have her solving problems or doing things that each of the rest of the group (maybe she has a science problem that relates to something mckay is saying, she realises the guy from spin city is lying when beckett says something).

Easter Lily
August 19th, 2006, 03:42 AM
It would have been better if they kept in weirs head the whole time, until she "wins", and have her solving problems or doing things that each of the rest of the group (maybe she has a science problem that relates to something mckay is saying, she realises the guy from spin city is lying when beckett says something).
I think I agree with you there...
But I still enjoyed the episode for what it was... a character piece for Weir. :)

shockwave
August 19th, 2006, 04:15 AM
boring episode, I had some high expectations after the improved quality of last weeks
even RDA couldn't save
why is there so much RDA on SGA instead of on SG1, where there wasn't much jack?

Merlin7
August 19th, 2006, 04:42 AM
Bored bored bored. Enought to zone out for the first half quite a few times. Perked up a bit when the team showed up, and loved the last ten minutes when John didn't give up on Weir. Nice carry over on his character. And the preview for COMMON GROUND? That had me all kinds of excited.

As for the nanites not affecting John? I would have paid to see HIS time in isolation. But my fan wank is the nanites in HOT ZONE didn't affect those with the ancient gene. So...I'll go with that.

Seastallion
August 19th, 2006, 04:46 AM
I LOVED Jack..! The episode was... okay. I love stargate to death, but this episode was just... okay. I mean, it was plausible enough, but it was just... okay. I didn't hate it or anything, but it was just... okay. Okay?

OKAY!!! :D

*Oooh... my 1,500th post..! Yaaayyy!* :p LOL

macktheknife
August 19th, 2006, 05:42 AM
Bored bored bored. Enought to zone out for the first half quite a few times. Perked up a bit when the team showed up, and loved the last ten minutes when John didn't give up on Weir. Nice carry over on his character. And the preview for COMMON GROUND? That had me all kinds of excited.

As for the nanites not affecting John? I would have paid to see HIS time in isolation. But my fan wank is the nanites in HOT ZONE didn't affect those with the ancient gene. So...I'll go with that.

The nanites designed to kill ancients by the asurans did not affect those with the ancient gene? Unless I'm missing something?

doylefan22
August 19th, 2006, 05:47 AM
Certainly not one of those episodes you can watch over and over (I've felt the same way about similar plotlines on Buffy and SG-1) but still interesting to watch.

Torri was excellent. She played a really fine line between strong, assured Weir who knew she was right and the one who was starting to doubt herself. It was interesting to see how prominently Jack figured in her visions. Clearly she has a great deal of respect for him and trusts him implictly.

I liked Rodney and Carson doing what they do best - they were not going to sit there and be all concerned about her when they could be trying to solve the problem. John's uselessness was well played in contrast. I wasn't surprised by what he did at they end - he'd have acted an done the same if it had been any of them there - but I do think it would have been more interesting and made more sense in a way to have Teyla do it. She is the one more likely to put her faith in mind over matter.

The cinematography was beautifully done. Loved how creepy and cold they made Elizabeth's 'real' world.

Major Gambit
August 19th, 2006, 06:12 AM
This was a great episode, it kept you guessing for a very long time.

Osiris
August 19th, 2006, 06:13 AM
I, for one, really enjoyed this episode! The whole drama feeling, Torri's amazing acting, RDA showing up, great directing are all positive points. Great character development for Dr. Weir! I love her!

I can understand a certain amount of fans found it boring though... (those who need an explosion every two minutes to enjoy an episode!) :P

Anyway, I've been really impressed by the quality of Atlantis' season 3 so far. :)

AutumnDream
August 19th, 2006, 06:14 AM
Not too bad. I've always liked Weir, so it's nice to see her doing something. It's too bad "other" shows can handle casts of 14 or so fully developed characters and this one can't even handle 6 - 5 of them being flat - but I'll take what I can get. It was better than last week's trash, anyway. This time when the title sequence came on, I was listening to the theme song and thinking about how much I used to love this show a couple years ago. The more timid, less hardcore Weir was also a nice reminder of Season 1.

Rating: Moderately Enjoyable. ^_^

Arlessiar
August 19th, 2006, 06:19 AM
A rather weak episode with some plot holes and all in all much too predictable - but: I liked it. Yes, I didn't think I'd say that about an episode that has so many logical flaws and clichés, but on the whole I liked it. Torri Higginson's acting was superb in this ep, and personally I also love these freaky-creepy mental hospital plots and settings, always have, so this was interesting for me.

The epsiode was slow, yes, but not dull for me. It was good that we had an ep that focussed on a character and less on action. The plot was strange, many questions I asked myself about this whole nanite thing were already raised in other posts here. The ending - too quick, too short, too vague. The sense of the whole nanite attack? There's none. It was really just a plot device. But ok, in this case I can somehow live with it, because it was the plot device for some sort of AU story I really enjoyed.

But I didn't really like Jack O'Neill in this ep. It was nice to see RDA again, but I think since he wasn't the real Jack his appearance was rather pointless and boring.

I liked the background for Weir this epsiode provided (small tidbits about her life on Earth, her family and her childhood), that was really nice and way overdue.

I could have done without the whole "Fight this, you're not alone" pathos from Sheppard. And how obvious was it that it's him she saw in her nightmarish 'visions'? I thought of Shep when the first blurry vision appeared! :D Must have been the hair...

That Sheppard didn't care about the quarantine and went to Weir was stupid, yes - but in character. Sheppard reacts this way. There's a part of his family dying (remember 'Sateda'), and even though he rarely gets emotional, there he does - by doing what he thinks he can do best: Fighting for this person. With weapons or words, doesn't matter, and he also doesn't care if his life is at stake. He risks it, and he doesn't give up as long as he can breathe. It's all better than losing someone that is dear to him, and it's the most obvious thing he does to admitting that someone is dear to him. That's a cliché and utterly stupid - and at the same time nice, it would be great to have someone who'd fight for your life like this.

The ShWeir shippers were probably happy with this ep, for me it was a bit much shipping in this ep, especially at the end. But I try to see it from the family aspect, as described above. I guess in the end Shepard would do that for Ronon, Carson, Teyla and Rodney, too.

So, and the rest of the guys?
Well, not much emotion from Ronon - definitely in character.
Teyla was concerned but still her ususal calm self.
Carson was visibly desperate, did what he could, and you could see that he hated to be defeated. Maybe this "We're losing her" came a bit too often for my liking. At least he fought hard for Elizabeths life before.
Rodney - some here said he was insensitive. No, I think then you don't understand his character at all.
Rodney was worried, and I dare to say that he was honestly and deeply concerned about Elizabeth. He doesn't want to lose her - he likes her! He just doesn't show his concern that openly - and I think he generally rather uses his brain to work on solutions while other people are busy worrying. Maybe it's also a distraction for him so that he won't be overwhelmed by emotions he probably couldn't handle well. And he simply is a scientist, with all his being. So he simply doesn't get as emotional as the others do, and I understand that he might easily come across as insensitive then when he talks in such a clinical or sometimes even rude way.
But I'm pretty sure that's just the outside, that's what he wants others to see (and to be or believe himself, maybe). He looks for scientific and realistic solutions. He doesn't believe in things like holding hands for support and strength or in something like a war of wills. Well, I for my part do, so of course I can say that Rodney is wrong, that these things can work, and that it's sad that he doesn't think so. But I can understand and would never hold it against him that he thinks otherwise. It's the way he is, and it's his right to think so, even if one could think that it's insensitve. And who knows, maybe the fact that he can keep a level head in many dire situations (after the usual "I'm gonna die" shock of course :D) has helped to save lives already. Emotions can also get in the way.

Anyway, he's there in the infirmary the whole time, looking for a solution as desperately as Carson. Normally he'd be pretty helpless when it's all about a voodoo profession as medicine, but when it comes to nanites he might be able to help. So he concentrates on that. Then Carson has an idea (and Rodney notices it, he's more observant than you'd think), and he works with him on that. When they present the idea he talks too much, yes, after all it was Carson's idea, but that's Rodney, he's proud and in his element (no matter how dire the situation, he'll always be like a child at Christmas when it comes to fascinating science) and he's excited to have something they can actually try to save Weir's life.

All in all I would have liked it if the whole team had lent their support to Weir. Yes, they were obviously concerned and wanted her to get better, but why did Sheppard have to be the only one daring to go to her and tell her to fight? Different scenes and approaches in urging her to live might have been interesting to see. Sadly we didn't get any "goodbye scenes" in "Conversion", so some "Come back to us" scenes from the different team members would have been nice, and maybe it wouldn't have been so tiring to hear it so often as it was when Sheppard said it several times. The ep might have been less shippy then, too.

But well, as I said, it was an episode I really enjoyed, mostly because of the character aspects.

Bye, A.

Southern Red
August 19th, 2006, 06:28 AM
An excellent episode in which everyone gets to do some real acting, not just running around with guns. TH finally got something to sink her teeth into to show us what an outstanding actress she is. And JF? What can you say about a man who does angst like noone I've ever seen. They could do a whole episode focusing just on his face and we'd all know what's supposed to be happening. I also loved the frantic running around that Carson and Rodney were doing, using their brains to save her while John and Teyla provided emotional support. And Ronon, bless him. stood around looking helpless. Once again the team rallies around one of their own.

It's amusing also that so many people see the S/W shippiness that TPTB say doesn't exist. Maybe it's time they actually admit there's something there. For once in SciFi, I'd like to see a ship come to reality that makes sense and isn't based just on physical attraction. No matter whether you support the ship or not, you can't deny that John and Elizabeth have a close bond after this episode. Carl Binder, you write them beautifully.

expendable_crewman
August 19th, 2006, 06:42 AM
... As to the pace and action: I just thought of something while posting in another thread. I get how someone who's watched the gates for a long time can get bored with this episode, because it really doesn't have nearly the amount of action or effects of an average episode. But it was a slow-burn episode, one very akin to Elizabeth's personality. Look at the frenzy of words that was Duet or the hectic GUP for Rodney - both very compatible with his slightly neurotic personality. Sateda was just blasting away with action, and almost oppressively silent most of the time as well. Again, this is very much who Ronon is - a man of action, not always a man of words. And so TRW felt very fair to who Elizabeth is - it unraveled slowly, intensely, every moment being felt and questioned. It just felt right to have her personal episode go down like TRW. In many ways it felt similar to SG-1's Grace, which is another episode that I adore. You see right into the core of two women who don't usually reveal too much about themselves; you can see the wheels turning in their heads. Loved it.I liked the episode and thank you, RoryJ, for capturing why. I didn't mind the change of pace. It felt entirely appropriate.

I was glad to see at least one thing bleed over from Progeny. Niam at the end of this episode was interesting.

I've seen the "it's all in your head" story before but that didn't bother me. The gem was in the execution and TH did a great job.

The background story-- her staff working to save her --did not disappoint.

As someone mentioned, I know we're supposed to expect Sheppard to do something dangerous. Still, I was happy when he did his thing. Sure, it's a hardwired trait (and therefore predictable) with the character but I don't think I'd like it if he changed direction.

I wished the episodes were ten minutes longer. I knew we were winding up by looking at the clock and I hated that because the shows go right to the last minute and sometimes hit "resolution" abruptly. I suppose it can't be helped. Good ep, though.

LaCroix
August 19th, 2006, 06:50 AM
The only thing that kept me awake in the one was Torri and waiting for RDA's apperance. I thought it was a cross between Buffy's Normal Again, that Lost episode, and a little of Sg-1's Legacy.

Merlin7
August 19th, 2006, 06:56 AM
The nanites designed to kill ancients by the asurans did not affect those with the ancient gene? Unless I'm missing something?


No. I'm just totally fanwanking to appease myself. It's not the same thing, I'm just making it justified so I don't have to roll my eyes so much. LOL

Stevo
August 19th, 2006, 07:17 AM
i think it was pretty good episode :D in some ways they could have made a feature film out of it with the storyline looking forward to the rest of the season!

MarshAngel
August 19th, 2006, 08:07 AM
Correct me if I'm wrong (and I'm sure you will) but didn't Carson state that Elizabeth's white blood cells destroyed the nanites in the petri dish, but that the nanites had somehow convinced her body that they were not a threat?

All John had to do was get Elizabeth to recognize the threat and start fighting back. Then her brain/body would recognize the danger and send in the white blood cells.

Right?


That would be like saying you can fight the flu by sheer will power... unlikely. You do not have that kind of control over specific cells in your body so why would getting past the delusion cause her white blood cells to suddenly do a better job? Were her cells in on the delusion too? Were they just hanging out until they received orders?

rarocks24
August 19th, 2006, 08:18 AM
I liked this episode. Whilst not the greatest episode, it did give Torri the chance to act, and we found out a little bit more about the character. Whilst this episode was a little cliché, I found it to be far more enjoyable than the 200th episode, actually. I suspected Torri first got her suspicions when that woman claimed that there were aliens from Saturn that fed on blood. Even she saw something in that claim to make her think this may just be in her mind.

RDA being in it, was I the only one to pick up on another ship (Jack/Weir), and then the more obvious ship of (Weir/John). Anyways, this episode was good, and did manage to frighten me a bit (the mystery thing raising up in her bed and through the hospital curtains was very creepy). All in all, whilst not the best episode, was a decent enough episode that I'll give it a 7 or 8.

-Jules-
August 19th, 2006, 08:19 AM
I really loved this episode. I thought they did a really good job with this one as well. All around a great Stargate night. I thought Richard Dean Anderson did a fab job in this, but it was a little weird to see him as the antagonist "bad guy". I always love the stories that mess with the mind because it can be the greatest enemy. I also loved Sheppard in this. (though, I pretty much always do...) He's the best! :sheppard:

Chailyn
August 19th, 2006, 09:00 AM
That would be like saying you can fight the flu by sheer will power... unlikely. You do not have that kind of control over specific cells in your body so why would getting past the delusion cause her white blood cells to suddenly do a better job? Were her cells in on the delusion too? Were they just hanging out until they received orders?

Yeah, I wondered about this too. I think they should have added more scenes with the team just so Beckett could give us some exposition. The way I took it, in my limited way :P , was that after the nanites started replicating as organic brain tissue that brain tissue turned the problem from a biological one into a more psychological one. It became an issue of multiple personalities, which enabled Weir to become the dominant one and repress the Niam personality. What happened to the Niam personality, I don't know. I don't think that brain tissue could have just disappeared when she "beat him", so I'm assuming those cells are still in her head somewhere. Maybe after Niam realized that he had been repressed, he allowed the cells to die? Ack, I don't know. Anyway, this is all just a theory now. Hopefully, we'll get more details about the nanities and how they work in upcoming eps.

I did like that the Asurans chose to infest Weir with the nanities since they know she's the leader of the expedition. Niam didn't grab just anyone. Smart little buggers. :)

Missing info aside, I still enjoyed this one. I thought the direction/editing was really on target and I enjoyed Torri. Not one of my favorites, but something different.

Mitchell82
August 19th, 2006, 09:09 AM
I'm delurking to put in my two-cents worth.

Everyone seemed to have Loved the episode or they were bored (probably from the lack of explosions). I enjoyed watching an excellent actress stretch her wings a bit and it was lovely.

Well done, Torri.

Also, I'd like to address the ending, which most people seem to think was the writers taking the easy way out regarding Elizabeth defeating the nanites through willpower. I thought that was addressed early on when Carson mentioned her white blood cells.

Correct me if I'm wrong (and I'm sure you will) but didn't Carson state that Elizabeth's white blood cells destroyed the nanites in the petri dish, but that the nanites had somehow convinced her body that they were not a threat?

All John had to do was get Elizabeth to recognize the threat and start fighting back. Then her brain/body would recognize the danger and send in the white blood cells.

Right?

I agree 100%. You are right about the ending. This was a great episode Tori did an excellent job. About time she got to showcase her talents.

Mitchell82
August 19th, 2006, 09:11 AM
That would be like saying you can fight the flu by sheer will power... unlikely. You do not have that kind of control over specific cells in your body so why would getting past the delusion cause her white blood cells to suddenly do a better job? Were her cells in on the delusion too? Were they just hanging out until they received orders?
I have to disagree on this one. This is compleatly different than the Flu. The naninites were trying to take over Elizabeth, so she needed to fight to regain control. It was beleivable given the unique situation.

immhotep
August 19th, 2006, 09:13 AM
This was the best character development episode stargate has produced in years, it was incredible. It had everything that makes CD eps great, torri was soo strong and portrayed the confusion and the feeling of being lost really well.
The science was kept to a minimum and the whole episode was complete and fufilling to watch. if the SGA team contiue to do CD in this manor during S3 then it might not be a lost cause after all, we can only hope the rest of the spinoff's episode are given this much care by the PTB.

Mitchell82
August 19th, 2006, 09:45 AM
This was the best character development episode stargate has produced in years, it was incredible. It had everything that makes CD eps great, torri was soo strong and portrayed the confusion and the feeling of being lost really well.
The science was kept to a minimum and the whole episode was complete and fufilling to watch. if the SGA team contiue to do CD in this manor during S3 then it might not be a lost cause after all, we can only hope the rest of the spinoff's episode are given this much care by the PTB.
I happen to think all the episodes past and present have been great but this one does take the cake IMO. It was a great CD episode. I absolutly loved it great job Tori!

Krendoshazin
August 19th, 2006, 10:08 AM
The whole "reality isn't reality" thing has been done so many times, even breaking from the false reality into another false reality has been done, so I can't give any points for originality, however it fitted in well with the replicator storyline, and the episode was well done.
They didn't spend the entire episode trying to convince you that the false reality really was reality and then at the end we suddenly find out the truth, they already did that when the team believed they had returned to earth, only to find out that the energy beings on the planet had fooled them, so I liked the fact they focused on the strength of the struggle in order to regain control of your mind.

With this in mind it did present some originality, but I felt John could have played more of a role in it, since nobody was fooled by the false reality, they should have let the cat out of the bag sooner, and then focused on John refusing to give up on her while she fought for her life, in a subtle "we're more than friends" way. This would certainly have given more depth to the characters and taken the focus away from the dead and buried "reality isn't reality" storyline.

The acting was good, and the storyline fitted in well, I give it 3 stars.

Iyouboushi
August 19th, 2006, 10:19 AM
The problem with an episode like this (no matter what series it's from; as this type of episode has been done in both Stargates, Star Trek, Buffy, et al) is that we already know how it's going to end. The viewer knows that it's not real. We know that somehow or another the character is going to break out of the false reality and return to his or her life ultimately as if it never happened.

Yes, these eps are interesting in the sense that we see how a character goes through their fake life but just once I'd love to see an episode like this be used as a series finale. And without any real resolution. That way we're not sure. Was the whole show a fake? In this case it would have worked great as a season finale if they had modified it just a little bit so that there was no resolution at the end, there were no cuts to the Atlantis team talking about what happened to Weir and that O'Neill knew of the Stargate program in the fake reality but the whole Atlantis expedition was fake. At least then we can wonder "well, maybe Atlantis never happened." Though using it for a season finale ends up the same as using it in the middle of a season--the audience already knows the outcome.

Still, it was interesting.

AGateFan
August 19th, 2006, 10:49 AM
I would give a review. But honestly the episode was so pointless and boreing I barely remember what happened now.

Just IMHO of course.

Apophis87
August 19th, 2006, 11:28 AM
Yeah, this has been done before. In SG1, when Daniel was infected with Machello's anti-goauld weapon thing, and especially in ST:TNG, when Riker was captured by those aliens who tried to make him think the Enterprise wasn't real, and members of the Enterprise crew would appear to him, trying to tell him what was going on.

I don't really have a problem with that, though. However, this episode just wasn't very good. As I was watching it, I glanced over at a clock, and saw that it was half way over in no time. It seemed to go by VERY quickly. RDA should have saved the episode, just by being there, but after seeing him in 200, his presence lost a bit of the novelty. I mean, it was like "Oh, ok, RDA's here. That's cool. But I just saw him in 200, so I don't really care as much as I normally would."

One thing I don't get though. When Weir is going back to the treaty talks, and Jack says something about taking short shifts before jumping back to the first line, Weir says she doesn't know anything about Football, and Jack says "or hockey, apparently". My question is, if this was all in her mind, and she didn't know anything about hockey, why would fake Jack know about it?

coolove
August 19th, 2006, 12:02 PM
I enjoyed the first half of the episode much more then I thought I would. Torri was just amazing. Though as soon as they showed Atlantis, I got bored.

Descent
August 19th, 2006, 12:25 PM
This episode was a lot better than I thought it would be, even though I knew what was going on it still freaked me out a bit. Finally Wier fans, heres your backstory! Now we just need to work on Sheppard, Carson and Teyla. Torri was just amazing in all this and O'Neill was a welcome addition to the fantasy.

8/10 from me!

gambit
August 19th, 2006, 12:39 PM
Finally Wier fans, heres your backstory!

This episode wasn't backstory, we found out some small bits but that was it. And besides out of all the Atlantis characters, Weir probably has the most backstory already, especially if you saw her intro in SG-1.

Descent
August 19th, 2006, 12:41 PM
This episode wasn't backstory, we found out some small bits but that was it. And besides out of all the Atlantis characters, Weir probably has the most backstory already, especially if you saw her intro in SG-1.

You got to see her relationship with her mother, the locket and other things. Thats a lot more than we have on Teyla and Carson. You people apparently want this show to turn into Lost or something. :P

gambit
August 19th, 2006, 12:49 PM
You got to see her relationship with her mother, the locket and other things. Thats a lot more than we have on Teyla and Carson. You people apparently want this show to turn into Lost or something. :P

Like I said we got a few bits of info, not backstory. And who the hell is "You people?"

chiefchucky
August 19th, 2006, 12:50 PM
All I can say is RDA's performance was better in the Real World than it was in 200.

Descent
August 19th, 2006, 12:54 PM
Like I said we got a few bits of info, not backstory. And who the hell is "You people?"

I wasn't disagreeing with you, im just saying that all those people who want backstory so badly are going to just get bits and pieces here and there. This isn't going to turn into Lost where you learn a huge amount of backstory in one episode. Wheres the fun in that? (no offense to Lost, I like Lost :P)

kymeric
August 19th, 2006, 01:17 PM
Holy Crap RDA looks old. What did he do in the last yr, so i know not to do it! BoToX man! Botox! He looks older than hammond ever did!!!!

Thought it was a pretty slow episode. Called the big reveal would come at the 30 min mark. Guess they spent all the money on a flying atlantis last ep. Was either and earth story or a clip show to make up the difference!! ;-)

The replicators r really creepy. Organic replicators assimilating people to make new bodies. Uhm... ew. Nice trick with the injecting wraith tissue. Nabid or whatever the Asuran guys name was has the creepiest mother @$%#ing haircut ever. Its like boy band meets elvis.

CalmStorm
August 19th, 2006, 02:04 PM
This was a good episode. I think Torri did a wonderful job with the material. It was good to see her go through all the emotions. We got to see her vulnerable (w/Mom), we got to see her defiant (w/Therapist), we got to see her have doubt and then we got to see her give up (by taking the meds and trying to accept what she was being told), then we got to see her fight.

On the flip side, I was dissapointed that Weir had only been in the coma for 5 hours. I think I would have preferred for her to be in the coma for a few days and to see the rest of the group extremely fatigued from their being at her side the entire time. I would have liked to see a more frantic, "what do we do", than to see them all somewhat resigned because they could not come up with anything. (EDIT: The last 10 minutes had this "what do we do" urgency, and that is what I wished was present a little earlier in the program) It would also have been nice to see some of the individual team members at her side with their little private moments like the scene with Sheppard encouraging her to fight. I would have like to have seen Teyla and the others and would be curious as to what that conversation would go like. To me, that would really have added to the personal character moments and would have given this episode that little extra something.

I did like Sheppard's move into the quarantined area and doing what he could to help Elizabeth. This seems to be right in-line for his character and something he would do. I'm also glad we did get to see Weir in some physical struggles...anything to show that she is not a delicate little creature is a bonus.

Of course, the added bonus....RDA. It was good to see him again and very much in character.

SGalisa
August 19th, 2006, 02:52 PM
Originally posted by CalmStorm:
I did like Sheppard's move into the quarantined area and doing what he could to help Elizabeth.Me too. And maybe Shep didn't care what might happen, because he firmly believed *someone* had to reach out to her; and he risked his own life to be that *someone*. ;)



Originally posted by Merlin7:
As for the nanites not affecting John? I would have paid to see HIS time in isolation.
Originally posted by macktheknife:
The nanites designed to kill ancients by the asurans did not affect those with the ancient gene? Unless I'm missing something?The way I understood this after the whole episode ended, was Shep also being part Wraith via the *iratus* bug... remember that little bugger?? (via "38 Minutes" and "Conversion"??) Carson introduced Wraith cells into Weir's body, and the nanites attacked it, because it was what their sole purpose was in defeating.

Unless the writers forgot all about Shep's medical history, perhaps Shep's mixed human plus ancient ATA gene over-rode the DNA structure of the Iratus bug, or because the iratus creature was pre-Wraith and Shep is still mostly *Ancient* of another sort, the nanites left John's cells alone.

I think this is on the right path for the answer, but I don't know how to properly explain it.

edain
August 19th, 2006, 02:56 PM
You guys are thinking way too scientifically. The body and mind of man is an amazing, amazing thing. Of course she could fight these off. Don't you guys ever read the stories about cancer victims fighting off cancer and living longer than they should(Lance Armstrong comes to mind....).

I enjoyed the episode. Not one of those that keeps you on the edge of your seat or anything like that, but good character development and all.

I know I'm going to get ragged about this but daggum Weir looked good in those blue jeans she was wearing at one point in the episode. She needs to get herself a pair of those to wear at Atlantis at ALL times.

Oka
August 19th, 2006, 03:07 PM
Awful episode, really boring and trite; how many times hasn't this episode been done in sci-fi before? I am actually amazed that I could sit through it all.

Why dedicate an entire episode to Weir? She's not supposed to be a major character in SGA. The plot was so predictable too, I pretty much figured out exactly what was going to happen the first 10 seconds. I was surprised to see RDA though but his presence didn't help the episode, it was doomed from the start. It just feels like such a pointless episode because you KNOW it isn't true - boom, reset button in the end, YAWN.

It did remind me of the one episode where Teal'c lost his symbiote in SG-1, which I didn't like either but at least it had a decent back story. Nanites? Comon........

What was the point of the nanites anyway? And I am not buying that "you have to fight them Elizabeth" bull**** either. Did she conciously activate her immune system? Laughable.

I am never watching this episode again.

Descent
August 19th, 2006, 03:09 PM
Why dedicate an entire episode to Weir? She's not supposed to be a major character in SGA.

Alright uh...then how come she has regular cast credit and is in more episodes than say Carson? *sighs*

birdieey
August 19th, 2006, 03:10 PM
I wasn't disagreeing with you, im just saying that all those people who want backstory so badly are going to just get bits and pieces here and there. This isn't going to turn into Lost where you learn a huge amount of backstory in one episode. Wheres the fun in that? (no offense to Lost, I like Lost :P)

I think "backstory" is highly overated. I'd prefer to learn about Weir through her weekly dealings with her team, SGC and everyone she encounters in Pegasus. How does learning that her mother gave her a locket (pocket watch?) give me more insight to her feelings and decisions? Episodes like this seem a cop out to me, I want to see Elizabeth well written week after week, I want to see her character grow, or regress or become jaded or what ever it is they have planned for her over the course of a season/series. Seeing happy, scared, confused, joy and triumph all in one episode (that has barely any connection to current storylines) does not make up for having her barely do anything for the last 2 seasons.

A good writer should be able to create well rounded characters whose actions and feelings are believable and understandable because of what they have done (and or said) in "previous episodes" not "flashbacks".

I didn't need this episode to realize Tori was a good actor, and I wish they had used it to teach me something more about Weir.

BTW- which is something they might have been able to do had they taken the time to explain why the nanites, her subconscious, Liam's consciousness or whatever was interested in making her think Atlantis didn't exist.

PG15
August 19th, 2006, 03:24 PM
Wow, that was intense, disturbing...and awesome. This is Stargate at it's best IMHO, since they are able to use the characters to their full strengths, and boy, did it show. We had Carson carring, McKay snarking, John risking his life, and of course, Weir was phenomenal in this. Torri did a great job; she deserves an Emmy IMHO.

There has been only a handful of telelvision episodes I've EVER watched, that made me think in silence afterwards, and this was one of them. Very powerful stuff. I think I'll promote Carl Binder to Minor Deity; although, he still has some ways to go before reaching the Godhood of Martin Gero and Brad Wright. :D

Ok, the points:

Very disturbing. I jumped when O'Neill's head went bobblehead-on-steroids on us. It's not gross, it was not violent, but it's still very "unhinging" for me.

Speaking of RDA, it's good to know he hasn't lost his skillz during the retirement period. Very nice to having him back for a guest spot. :)

I have to stress it again, but Torri just did a wonderful...hell, beyond wonderful job with this episode. You can see she really put her soul in this, or that she's just this good. :D (I think I'm officially a Weir-fan).

Very nice bit showing her mother, who was portrayed wonderfully by that actress (who I don't know). They look enough like each other that they can really be believed to be mother and daughter.

Sedge!! :D

Alan Ruck was very good playing the creepily-calm psychologist. I also liked how the camera trained on him, almost as if he was permanently slanted.

The one slightly downside of this episode was the ending. I wasn't quite clear on what happened, and felt slightly anticlimactic. No big deal though.

All in all, a solid episode that continues the trend of the season. IMHO, this is going to go down as one of the best Stargate seasons ever. :)

Score: 9.5/10

white noise
August 19th, 2006, 03:38 PM
every episode, in every series has been done before, i mean, come on, there's only so much you can do, but so what? the show was killer, and i had just gotten done watching the buffy show about the same thing, and i still think it was amazing! kudos! the nanite thing was fine...if i want true science, i'll watch a documentary....this is entertainment, and entertainment it was! keep it up atlantis!!!

stewsith
August 19th, 2006, 04:08 PM
I just watched this and I really enjoyed it. I was pretty creeped out at some points and felt really sorry for elizabeth! When Jack's head started spinning It made me jump. Anyway I thought it was very well written and a good wier episode.

I just wish that they had been really clever at the end and left it so that there was a ever so slight possability that wier really was in a mental hospital and it is all in her head. Like she could be restrained to that bed and she is still imagining it!

EdenSG
August 19th, 2006, 04:09 PM
I really enjoyed this episode.
I did have some apprehensions since it was to focus so much on one character, but I thought overall it was very well done.

Good story/ Good writing – yes the story has been done before but this was still different enough and done well enough to keep it interesting and hold my attention.

Great directing – which is probably what made the story and premise worked as well as it did. Someone mentioned the scene where the John was telling her to fight then you see Weir throwing away the pills – extremely well done and a great connection between the two events.

Great acting – outstanding job by Torri!

Things I really liked:
• How the shadow of John kept popping up. Seemed he was the strongest link she had to the “real world” and Atlantis. Yes the hair should have been a dead give away it was him.
• The genuine creepiness of some of the scenes.
• RDA and how he kept popping up.
• Little tidbits about Weir’s character, especially the scene with her mother and the watch and the meaning it holds for her.
• How John broke quarantine to “save” her. Maybe not the smartest thing to do but definitely in character – I would have been surprised if he hadn’t done that.
• The moments with Carson and Rodney working together on the Wraith tissue idea were well done – and I don’t think Rodney was insensitive, I think it is his character to – in life threatening moments - to become very focused on the science aspect of things. That is what he comfortable with and that what is expertise is in so that is how he attempts to solve problems.
• How it was John who made the connection that the nanites were trying to take over Elizabeth’s consciousness and that she was fighting it.
• How Elizabeth had to find trust and the strength in herself to overcome the situation and defeat the nanites and how John helped her do that.

I would have liked to see a little more interaction/conversation between John and Elizabeth at the very end and there were a few inconsistencies with the nanite premise but …

All in all this was a solid episode, perhaps not one that I would watch over and over, but a good, character focused episode nonetheless.

JohnDuh
August 19th, 2006, 04:13 PM
Well that was bad. In this kind of story we KNOW from frame 1 that its not real - so stop dragging it out, get over it in a couple of minutes not after half an hour. Of course in this case they didn't actually have a story - just predictable running in place - lets hope the money saved will be well spent in the future.

The Ori
August 19th, 2006, 04:19 PM
I found it a really good episode and I Liked Wier's acting, hopefully they do more character developments of all the crew as well as interpersonal relationships!!

The Ori
August 19th, 2006, 04:29 PM
Wow, that was intense, disturbing...and awesome. This is Stargate at it's best IMHO, since they are able to use the characters to their full strengths, and boy, did it show. We had Carson carring, McKay snarking, John risking his life, and of course, Weir was phenomenal in this. Torri did a great job; she deserves an Emmy IMHO.

There has been only a handful of telelvision episodes I've EVER watched, that made me think in silence afterwards, and this was one of them. Very powerful stuff. I think I'll promote Carl Binder to Minor Deity; although, he still has some ways to go before reaching the Godhood of Martin Gero and Brad Wright. :D

Ok, the points:

Very disturbing. I jumped when O'Neill's head went bobblehead-on-steroids on us. It's not gross, it was not violent, but it's still very "unhinging" for me.

Speaking of RDA, it's good to know he hasn't lost his skillz during the retirement period. Very nice to having him back for a guest spot. :)

I have to stress it again, but Torri just did a wonderful...hell, beyond wonderful job with this episode. You can see she really put her soul in this, or that she's just this good. :D (I think I'm officially a Weir-fan).

Very nice bit showing her mother, who was portrayed wonderfully by that actress (who I don't know). They look enough like each other that they can really be believed to be mother and daughter.

Sedge!! :D

Alan Ruck was very good playing the creepily-calm psychologist. I also liked how the camera trained on him, almost as if he was permanently slanted.

The one slightly downside of this episode was the ending. I wasn't quite clear on what happened, and felt slightly anticlimactic. No big deal though.

All in all, a solid episode that continues the trend of the season. IMHO, this is going to go down as one of the best Stargate seasons ever. :)

Score: 9.5/10

Agreed! She did do a great job!

Elles
August 19th, 2006, 06:13 PM
I really, really liked that episode. I found the theme quite fascinating.
I thought that that sillouhette Weir kept seeing was Sheppy-kins... Somehow recognized his build...
I love Carl Binder... But not in that way...
Yup.

PG15
August 19th, 2006, 06:23 PM
I thought that that sillouhette Weir kept seeing was Sheppy-kins... Somehow recognized his build...


Heh, that would make sense, wouldn't it? I thought it was Niam.

Damn you spoilers!!

Bama
August 19th, 2006, 06:44 PM
Fantastic episode!! Shippy imo as all get-out but beside that it was just quality acting (Torri was fabulous as was the whole gang), story and downright edgy, hard-core drama/sci-fi. Had a real xfile like feel to it! Great stuff! SGA is busting it this year ! Keep up the great work guys!

lily
August 19th, 2006, 07:49 PM
I really liked this epi. I was looking forward to it because:

1) It was written by my top fave SGA writer: Carl Binder (Martin Gero is my second fave)

2) I knew we would get character development for Elizabeth. I like ALL the regulars and many recurring characters in SGA very much , so I'm always looking forward to epis focused on any of the characters, just not my top fave (which would be Shep in my case)

So I started to watch it thinking it good be good (like a 7 out of 10).

You know what? I liked it even more than I expected. I'd give it an 8 or possible a 9 out of 10.

It was great to see Elizabeth in another context, know about her life before SGA, find out about that watch (shown for the first time at the end of Critical Mass), find out about her mother, etc.

I know this kind of story doesn't appeal to everybody, but I'm very fond of psychological thrillers (movies and books), so I liked it from that perspective too.

We already knew that it was a lie, so there was no mystery in that. But that wasn't the point either. I like how the story was told and acted. I love how we realize that the man she'd seen through the glass was Shep. And I love how she gets to the SGC. The scene in the SGC corridors, with Jack on one direction and Shep in the other was great. And I love the ending.

So, yeah, thinking about all this again... It gets a 9 out of 10.

Tiret
August 19th, 2006, 08:31 PM
I really like this episode. It may sound strange, but this story strikes a very deep chord with me. The battle for control of one's own will and the struggle to find a true reality will always be strong storylines for myself personally. I also liked the phychological thriller "feel" to the piece, and the fact that we get to see more of Dr. Weir, not just reacting to an Atlantis "peril of the day" or dishing out orders, but really in a situation by herself. I bet it was a good episode to work on for the actress. She got to play some really strong emotion. This has made my list of favorites for Atlantis. ;)

Ruined_puzzle
August 19th, 2006, 08:33 PM
I love this episode. Seeing Elizabeth fighting, but then giving in and fighting again was so great. We knew from the beginning that her world wasn't real, but I really liked seeing Elizabeth's fake world. I think this episode was fitting for the character of Elizabeth.

Plus the sparky shippyness didn't hurt :)

Quinn Mallory
August 19th, 2006, 08:35 PM
I thought this was a good episode and definitely benefitted from the presence of RDA to lighten up the scenes. I did watch this while fast forwarding through the ads, so perhaps that's why it wasn't as 'boring' to me as to some other people.

The Sheppard-Weir interaction was of course the highlight.

Blower'sGate
August 19th, 2006, 08:41 PM
My friends, a tv show is about entertainment and SG1 and SGA have given it to me from the begining and so did The Real World. I read the spoilers about three weeks ago but still I was amazed by how the episode turned ou to be... Torri is like, IMO, one of the most talented actress I've ever seen and I think she definitly deserves an award for her performance ( and yeah while trying she actually tried to kick some ass^^- It's not explosions but there still was little action 'entertainment' parts); espacelly on this episode because she was "the plot" but also, for her overall performances on SGA. She's not only beautiful ( some of you commented on the way she's been dressed for this episode, if you have no idea what I'm talking about, look at the civilian clothes' scene again ^^ ) but she's smart enough to know the difference between "acting out of character and try to demonstrate something to the viewers" and acting on the different aspects of the character with a side of it that already existed in season 1. Some of you dislike her decisions ( I don't want to go back on this sensible subject, I agree with you it's all about the writing decisions; but if you just hate the charcater it's your right, I'm not here to judge anyone's opinions ), but I don't want the writers to change Dr.Weir. It's true she's one of my favourite character on the show, but objectivly I like her this way: wrong about a lot of things ( don't worry Atlantis is far from being destroyed ). And I'm glad Torri handled her part so well throughout this episode, because she would have had, not only because of the way the episode was written, but considering the fans critics ( I'm sure the writers are aware of the people who like a charcter and those who don't ), there were so many opportunities IMO for Torri to change her way of playing Weir. I'm not saying I'm against changes, on the contrary I must say the end of the real world made me think that there's going to be a lot of changes in her character's development, maybe in her decisions toward Atlantis' expedition, treaty, safety... She's just a fascinating character and as far as I'm concerned this episode made me even more pleased for what's coming next. I hope TPTB do the same for the rest of the cast, even better maybe, because perfection can't be reach and we all know it. So very good episode overall, I loved the fact that RDA was in it, but I want to see him more on SG1 too.

And as for the shweir thing, I think some of you might be exagerating the impact Shep had on Wer on this episode. I'm a huge Shweir fan but I don't think it is obvious enough to say they're flirting or something, for the moment being what counts is there friendship and I'm glad TPTB are getting into developping their "friendship". But as a matter of fact, this episode was mostly about Weir: her strengh and weakness than shweir. Like for Sateda we had friendship support/ Now, subjectivly, I obviously like the shippy stuff but this is an another story....

By the way vaberella ( I know your not a big fan of how Weir's written but I always find your comments very interesting ), I'm glad you changed your 2/10 to a 5/10 ^^ ;)

Lord Shiva
August 19th, 2006, 08:57 PM
I have 2 words for this episode:

JACOB'S LADDER!!!

This episode was Stargate's version of that movie, from not knowing what's real/unreal, to the scary visuals. I thought it made a fantastic horror episode, just not a typical Sci-Fi Stargate episode.

I think it was a decent episode, but I felt that it was approached wrong... I realize they wanted to save the fact that Weir was infected by nanites till later on, but when they finally did reveal that fact, it was a bit ho-hum by then.

Overall decent episode, but both this and 200 were underwhelming to me. Decent episodes, though.

Mitchell82
August 19th, 2006, 09:32 PM
Excellent ep, Torri was great kudos to her,I want more Tori eps!
Woohoo 600 posts!

Lord Shiva
August 19th, 2006, 10:15 PM
This episode also reminded me of an episode of Buffy the Vampire Slayer where Buffy retreated into her subconscious because of some horrific thing that happened in her life, and she "wakes up" in a mental institution, which is actually in her head.

bluealien
August 19th, 2006, 10:58 PM
I think "backstory" is highly overated. I'd prefer to learn about Weir through her weekly dealings with her team, SGC and everyone she encounters in Pegasus.

I agree - Weirs personal past in of no interest to me at all and it doesn't give me any insight into how she copes from day to day and deals with the decisions she has made so far.



How does learning that her mother gave her a locket (pocket watch?) give me more insight to her feelings and decisions? Episodes like this seem a cop out to me, I want to see Elizabeth well written week after week, I want to see her character grow, or regress or become jaded or what ever it is they have planned for her over the course of a season/series. Seeing happy, scared, confused, joy and triumph all in one episode (that has barely any connection to current storylines) does not make up for having her barely do anything for the last 2 seasons.

Exactly - TRW has no bearing at all on how we see Weir deal with the day to day running of Atlantis. By the end of the show she was already back to her usual stoic self and I'm sure we will see no insight at in into how she feels about the life and death decisions she has made so far. How does killing millions effect her. I would like to see some emotion of genuine feeling from her on a weekly basis and well written and consistant characterization. But I'm not holding my breath. What is the point of a one off ep giving us info that really has no bearing on what we see on a regular basis . You don't need to devote a whole ep to one character to do this. It can be done over time and all it takes are a few well written lines like we had with Sheppard when he was telling Teyla how he felt about his team.


A good writer should be able to create well rounded characters whose actions and feelings are believable and understandable because of what they have done (and or said) in "previous episodes" not "flashbacks".

I didn't need this episode to realize Tori was a good actor, and I wish they had used it to teach me something more about Weir

I agree.


BTW- which is something they might have been able to do had they taken the time to explain why the nanites, her subconscious, Liam's consciousness or whatever was interested in making her think Atlantis didn't exist.

The whole nanite thing was really lame and her "cure" was even worse. The science was very badly explained and overall pretty unbelievable.

bluealien
August 19th, 2006, 11:13 PM
Why dedicate an entire episode to Weir? She's not supposed to be a major character in SGA. The plot was so predictable too, I pretty much figured out exactly what was going to happen the first 10 seconds. I was surprised to see RDA though but his presence didn't help the episode, it was doomed from the start. It just feels like such a pointless episode because you KNOW it isn't true - boom, reset button in the end, YAWN.

I am never watching this episode again.

Unfortunately this is how it make me feel. There was no suspence as we knew from the very beginning that it wasn't real. So we sit through patiently waiting for Weir to figure it out and this wasn't enough to keep my interest. Sorry I didn't get pulled in or care about Weirs plight because the story was just too predictable and it doesn't make the fact that Tori did a good job acting wise change this. This was probably a treat to Weir fans and Shep/Weir fans even though I didn't see Sheppard do anything that he hadn't done for other members of his team - but to the casual viewer is was boring and waste of time. The writers need to be appealling to fans of all the characters if they ever hope to get the ratings to increase again.

Elinor
August 20th, 2006, 12:21 AM
I love how this season we're really getting some good character moments. I liked this episode. It's not one I would watch lots and lots of times, but it was good stuff!

Did have a creepy feel to it. I was wondering if that was Shep that she kept seeing, I thought it probably was, but wasn't entirely certain until towards the end. Sheppy in Lizzie's bedroom...wonder if/when we'll see that again!http://www.websmileys.com/sm/happy/783.gif

Torri did a great job here as most of the episode focussed on her and I also thought Joe was great with the angsty/worried scenes and also his selfless rushing into the quarantine area to help her. What a guy!


I jumped when O'Neill's head went bobblehead-on-steroids on us.

LOL! http://www.websmileys.com/sm/happy/028.gif

vaberella
August 20th, 2006, 12:25 AM
By the way vaberella ( I know your not a big fan of how Weir's written but I always find your comments very interesting ), I'm glad you changed your 2/10 to a 5/10 ^^ ;)

I'm in shock...'You like me, you really like me!!'---Okay, that sounded as bad as when it was first coined by Sally Fields, although I do really like her work; but that's all besides the point. :rolleyes:

I wanted to make a clarification. I upgraded the episode after I gave my rather wacked out summary, the my summary made me laugh so I upgraded. The episode was poorly made and it wasn't a smoking ember at all.

Continuity was thrown out the window...don't get me wrong, I'm very familiar with retconning, since Marvel has been messing with my brain functions and my memory synapses for years now. But this is a three season show compared to an about 40 year comic businenss. So we have 3 seasons and when it comes to the Asurans 3 eps during all that time, two of which were sequestered in S3 so far. Then we have the lack of development of the character, which was really stupid. The utter boredom of the episode which just dragged on, and even those who liked it---had to say it lagged for moments...I'm surprised I didn't fall asleep during that time. And lastly, there was more about Shep in the couple of seconds he got than about Weir in the 35 minutes she got, and sadly the team was really not used to their capacity as they could.

Now I'll expand a bit. Normally I rarely complain about these ep (based on my previous ep reviews and the high scores I gave them), and I usually give people their props, and in Progeny there was much to say. But this episode was rather boring. Before I touch on continuity, I'll speak of my utter boredom. I really don't know what I was to take from the ep. We knew she was infected by something and she falls unconcious, we know she's in a make believe world, and we know that the team tries to find a cure while Shep gives motivational support. Now, after knowing all that...the ep didn't have any sort of surprise for me. I'll compare this to let's say SATEDA, for all the info I knew on SATEDA, I came to realize I knew nothing. Exept it was Ronon's backstory, we'd get a snippet into the mind of John, and of course there's some girls making some appearances. Beyond that, I knew nothing. I'm not saying the spoilers ruined the show, I'm just saying the show was predicatable spoilers or not. While SATEDA, had it's moments of pure and utter coolness, ie. McKay/Beckett and Shep/Teyla.

But in this episode I was sort of numbed out. I didn't hate, but I know I didn't like it either. I was just watching something...it's like watching golf on tv. For some, golf is exciting; I really would rather eat grasshoppers in chocolate than watch golf---not because I hate the sport...but because, I get nothing out of it. This numbness leads to more on lack of Weir development.

Unfortunately there was zero development. We know Weir's a fighter, we saw this in The Eye/Storm, we saw this in The Siege 1 or 2, so I got nothing there. I know she's a supposed diplomat/negotiator, the words have been slapped in my face (although I haven't seen them enacted). I know she's a teacher at Georgetown, 'What's new pussycat?! Is all I'm asking.' I knew Weir had a dog, I was shown the fact in 'Home.' I know she had a lover, given to me in Rising and Home. I know Weir was helping the government...what don't I know about Weir is what I have to ask, that was revealed to me in this episode?! It gave me nothing. I was lost in a haze of what I know. This clearly states it wasn't really Weir centric, just lots of pictures of her doing things, but we got nothing on Weir.

Oh except two things... could be the holy grail I was supposed to get, her mum is alive and has cool fashion sense, and her dad is dead and had a pocket watch. I think we discovered the cure for cancer in this. I don't know how this adds to anything about Weir. I'm not even sure Shep has parents, we know Teyla has zero parents---and depending on the age she lost them, we can bet our cookies she went through some drama; being raised as an orphan pretty much--then taking on responsibility so great. Or Ronon, we got nothing on his parents. So I'm trying to see how her parents are so great to her backstory?!

Now onto continuity. Now I know HZ like the back of my hands, I've watched it over and over again, mainly because I love McKay, Zelenka, Ford---and prime numbers. So I was playing along, I'm a math geek---it compliments my obsession with Sudoku. Anyway, it's also the ep with J/T sparring, we know the Asurans are the nanites in HZ, but within human form from Progeny. We know that the bloody ancients are immune...much like McKay was immune to the virus in HZ, now explain to me why John needed to be quarantined?! The nanites are to kill the wraith, and unfortunately take on humans too....why would they then be wanting to quarantine John----he wouldn't be infected, same goes for McKay or Beckett, and Ronon was too far away---he's seriously afraid of Weir cooties (smart man) and the only one who shoul dhave been out of the room was Teyla---cause those suckers would eat her like pirahna on a chicken leg. Why keep Teyla in a room like that..even if Weir is covered in plastic. And further more, I thought this crud was airborne, like in HZ..now he's like centralized, okay I'll concede that they would fix the sort of specialized version as being more direct and through physical contact, but Teyla touched Niam...I'm still wondering how she didn't get infected as well...not getting it.

Then there's John motivational speaking. I mean I saw no shipper moments, it's fun ragging on it though--and to expand on why I felt ti gave more into Shep, because it was another form given to us to show his devotion to his team members. Like he said to Teyla in SATEDA he'd die for them, and the same was seen in Progeny when he envisioned it's collapse. I'm not surprised by him being there for Weir or helping her out. McKay and Beckett were rather the understated harder workers in my book, because without them she surely would have died. So in reality they saved her life. John was there, but unfortunately as sheets, fuzzy glass, and shadowman. So I got more support from vision Jack, than John. I found John the moment to be great for John, also because he uses his brain more. It's a rare occasion when he's giving McKay and/or Beckett tips on solution, and we knew he was super smart because of The Brotherhood.

Teyla and Ronon were rather unnecessary, although Teyla was giving in some input which made sense, I gave her a little high five for sayinig something. Ronon looked more fearful of cooties, if you ask me to even say much.

Anyway, this was an ep where I should have seen the entire team really uniting to help a friend, I don't even get that, not even really in John's case, a nurse would have said the same to Weir. It's rather sad that it wasn't executed well in my eyes. I really enjoyed Before I Sleep, and although you don't get much back story to Weir herself, you get great input on the Ancients through her and that was fantastic. But this gave me input on nothing. I wasn't on the edge of my seat. I wasn't even able to be that sympathetic...not like when Mulder went nuts in X-Files (that boy had me crying). She didn't even look that crazy, more like she wsa renting a room in a hospital---what insane asylum lets you use the internet?! I never knew they were even connected for people to use. And she was walking freely in and off the base, there were cars, she could just run away. I don't know the feel was all wrong, I wasn't feeling like she was really being tortured, at least Mulder gave me that....and even Scully---those things made my stomach turn.

All I got was no make up and a decent room with dsl. Okay, so it's an asylum---they got dial-up...whoopee. :D I guess this is a more serious review..I was just numbed really, with waht I was being fed. Again there's no hatred for the ep, because I sat through it...and I really support character centric episodes (I hated GUP, but I still stand by it), but this was just poorly made, with too many loopholes and really no essence.

This is not an ep I would watch again, I'd put it down to the level of GUP, possibly The Tower for me. GUP at least gave me a plesiousaur, I gotta give props for that.

Too many....meh, just really not my cup of tea.


As for Ms. Higginson's acting, I mean we all knew she was a good actress, I'm sure some are glad she got to exercise it, but we got a piece similar to this...and I felt far more dynamic for the character in eps like Critical Mass and Michael and Before I sleep, where we're really seen some great drama and angst on her part, especially Critical Mass---which is actually a fave of mine for the character. This wasn't that much of a stretch from those scenes. But her acting and performance really isn't in question or up for debate, just thought I'd throw that in there.

saberhagen83
August 20th, 2006, 12:40 AM
This was a very good episode. Good character development for Weir, and we got to see some Jack again, always nice. :) I really don't think you need to be a super-fan of Weir to like this episode, I'm not a huge fan of hers but I still enjoyed this. Sure it's been done before, but so has A LOT of other stuff been on many shows. As long as the ep is good, I'm all for a little copying. ;)

Reaceania
August 20th, 2006, 02:58 AM
Why dedicate an entire episode to Weir? She's not supposed to be a major character in SGA.
She's not? Um could have fooled me.



What was the point of the nanites anyway? And I am not buying that "you have to fight them Elizabeth" bull**** either. Did she conciously activate her immune system? Laughable.

I am never watching this episode again.

Um feel free to laugh but the field this idea taps into is called psychoneuroimmunology (also neuroimmunology but the former is more accurate in this instance). I find it one of the more fascinating aspects of medical science.

Dr Reaceania.

ps. I find that it helps your credibility if you know what you’re talking about before dissing an idea so vehemently (otherwise it just makes you look silly). :)

metabog
August 20th, 2006, 03:20 AM
Tori would be perfect to play Sarah Connor in a terminator movie. :D

Pitry
August 20th, 2006, 04:02 AM
Ah, that episode was brilliant! I don't usually tend to go that way, but Real World does seem to have earned the "Best Atlantis Episode Ever" title. At least for now.

Torri Higginson was excellent. As much as I usually find Weir annoying as hell, this episode seems to show how underused the character really is. She was compltely awesome.
Jack! Jack Jack Jack. I was surprised at how much he appeared in the episode, I thought he'd be in a much smaller part. Okay, it wasn't the real Jack... and yet. ;)
So Mystery Man was Sheppard - huh, I thought some of the blurred close-ups looked like Niam.

The scene I loved the most - back in the hospital, when she's playing cards (how's that game called in English? It's speed here...) and she's getting the Atlantis address on the cards... that was one brilliant bit.
Also the group session, when she's all patronising about the woman seeing aliens and then the psychologist looks at her in a "look who's talking" and humbling her down. Loved that scene.
And the chatter with Jack of course... *innocent smile* the signing -the -treaty bits were excellent.

I wondered about Simon... interesting that they chose to kill him rather than have him around, but I s'poose he already played his part.

So forget all my complaionings about lack of real character development in Sateda and Progeny. This time I really do feel we've seen sides to Weir that weren't there before. Her acceptence of the cover story, for example. Was she running away from Scary Man or actually buying into their story? Thankfully, also, they gave up the kind of "whta if I told you it's all a dream" speech a-la Mitchell in Collateral Damage. On the contrary - I enjoyed how they refrained form having Weir answer the pyschologist's question when he tells her how ridiculous it all sounds.

That clock - is there something more significant in that? I wonder. Weir seemed pretty stricken to see it, and then playing it afterwards when she's conscious and on Atlantis...

Sheppard - I dunno, I don't mind his figuring it out. I don't see it as him being so overly smart, or whatever - the solution, or at least beginning of the solution, was found by Beckett and McKay (BTW! Ha! McKay picking up the credit for Carson's idea and keeping on interrupting him. I just love these two.) - it was rather his stubborness that allowed him to get through to Weir, not his brains. Or at least that's the way I saw it. It was refusal to give up on her that managed to help find her way.

Okay, yeah, it was getting a tad bit Legacy there with the Stargate inside the door - but I liked it nonetheless.

Excellent, all in all.

buzlighty1
August 20th, 2006, 04:06 AM
I found this episode most borring. Not sure why exactly. Proably that it had to do with weir more then anything else i think. Though Niam near the end was cool, but for some reason i think this whole plot thing has been done. Also if the nanites caused the halicunations in her, why didn't the others survive in hotzone the same way?

Reaceania
August 20th, 2006, 04:16 AM
[With this plot I knew there’d be people who wouldn’t like it but looking through this thread I’m amazed at how much this ep seems to have really polarised the audience).

Okay I really liked this episode, and after watching it again I’ve got to say that I loved it. I’ll be watching this one again. I’ve been really impressed by the last 3 eps of SGA. I hope this continues.

For me it serves as a good reminder that a quality science fiction story can be done without the need for explosions and without the need for a huge cgi/ VisFX budget. For me this ep pushed the SG franchise up a level. Class ep! Out of the 11.5 or so years of SG in total, this ep is right up there in my top ten. It’s a stand out for me.

Torri Higginson. What’s there to say? She’s brilliant and prodigiously talented. All too frequently the writers struggle to come up with material for the female characters. It’s about time that she was showcased like this.
Great casting with Alan Ruck as the psychiatrist. Great to see RDA again, though with “200” (which non stop laughs) screened immediately before this ep, the significance of RDA’s presence was diminished (negative points for the planning section of the production office on that count).

As for the comments that the basic story isn’t new. Ah well, find me one that really is. For me the interest in the story comes from the journey not the destination. How they pull the story off. I liked what they did here. It wasn’t perfect (what is?) but I still love it.

The music was great. I especially liked the subdued music in the opening scene, right up to where it resonated as she tried to open the locked door. The pieces where she was giving up and then was starting to fight back were great. I especially liked the sequence after John was telling her she wasn’t alone. Right up to the final run home from the hospital to Atlantis.

I would’ve liked to have been more freaked out by this ep, but that could be just me. It takes quite a bit to freak me out. I did like the direction in general. In particular I liked the first transition to Atlantis (I liked the contrast in worlds, the lighting etc) and I also really liked the camera work when she freaked out just before running into Fletcher’s arms. The intercuts between her illusionary world and Atlantis were amongst my favourites. When Shep was telling her to fight (“Don’t let them get to you … you’ve got to fight this!”) and Elizabeth was in the “bathroom” reacting to what he was saying. And then again when Elizabeth was about to get a dose of ECT and Sheppard was telling her she wasn’t alone and had to fight. It was beautifully done (acting, direction, story, and music)! I liked the Sheppard intrusions into her artificial world. Always out of arms reach like he was in the periphery of her consciousness, never in focus, just a vague reminder of something else from her memory. Likewise I liked the shot in the bathroom where her face had disappeared as though her consciousness was telling her she was really trapped in a body that couldn’t see or speak to think otherwise was an illusion.

I also would’ve liked to have seen the other members of the team encouraging her to fight, but I guess there are only so many things you can do in 42-43 minutes. Carson gave up on her a bit earlier than I would’ve liked. I would’ve also liked in the final scene for her to question whether or not she really was back in the real world, but then I guess that was meant to come from her not being impressed by Sheppard’s joke.

I liked that Sheppard waited until the others left for him to really try to speak to her, to tell her to fight, as though he was afraid of the others seeing his vulnerability. Yet when the stakes were high he didn’t care. He didn’t care that the others would see his concern for Elizabeth and he didn’t care for his own safety to grab her arm. Physical contact is such an important form of communication for us, especially for people (from newborns to adults) on that make-or-break threshold where she was, so I’m glad that they chose to do that. I do have to admit that that scene did make my heart jump and I don’t mean figuratively, it literally jumped. I must admit I really like the strong bond that is developing between these two characters.



Questions:
Have the nanites all gone? How easy would it be for just one to have gone into hibernation mode; for it to have escaped detection from the scanners. You only need one to replicate and they’re smart little buggers. I give it a good chance that one might have found somewhere to hide.

Did Evil-Reset-Niam have any control over the nanites? He’s what, floating around in orbit of the planet, so could he have been controlling them? Could he have acted as a relay station for the Assuran’s to be in control of them? Or were they simply on their own?

Biscuit
August 20th, 2006, 08:16 AM
The hell? I hate an episode that everybody else seems to love? Excellent! Finally, I can unpack all my most unflattering adjectives!

Usually, I'm Little Mary Sunshine about our weekly outings -- easily amused, tolerant of plot holes and continuity lapses and weird characterization and the show's complete inability to pass up a cool Ancient city or ship without blowing it up before I have a chance to play with it. I'm easy that way.

That said. Oh my freaking god. This episode bored me to clawing my eyeballs out.

Not that there weren't things to love. Plenty of deliciously creepy moments and some fine, fine examples of the team rallying 'round. I loved Torri Higginson's performance -- taut, desperate and believable.

I like Weir plots! While You Were Sleeping was one of my favorite episodes and I loved her venture into evil action mode in The Long Goodbye (what is it with evil aliens invading Weir's brain? Beckett's going to have to install an on-ramp in her ear canal at this rate.) And Sheppard. Aw, Sheppard. C'mere and let me hug your self-sacrificing head! And McKay, who knows what a brilliant idea looks like because he's had more than a few while standing in front of a mirror. Mad love!

Now that I've purged myself of the warm fuzzies...

Shout, shout, let it all out. These are the things I could do without:

* Yet another bunch of aliens lulling the foolish humans into a false illusion that they're back on Earth. At least in "Home" it made a certain amount of sense. But honestly, if the nanobots wanted to keep Weir docile while they went about disassembling her brain -- wouldn't it have made more sense to fool her into believing she was in the middle of an average day on Atlantis, doing paperwork.? Why cobble up the intense stress of chucking her into a hallucinatory mental ward. Wouldn't that make her fight the illusion even more?

* The planet Earth is boring. Somebody should cross-stitch this on a sampler and mail it to Vancouver. Booooooring. I live in Washington, D.C. If I want to watch people teach political science, negotiate treaties or get hauled off to the mental ward (I'm looking at *you,* Senator Allen!) I'll open up a window. Which brings us to...

* You're not fooling anybody, writers! We know the past two years haven't all been a beautiful dream. You can spend half an hour building the illusion. You can make it a three-episode arc in which we watch Weir go shopping, get a pedicure and learn macrame. We're still not going to believe it. And we know the mystery's not going to get solved until we get back to Atlantis. So get us back to Atlantis, pronto! I was writhing on the floor by the end of the first half hour. ("Take us back to the city! Cruel writers! Take us back to Atlantis and soothe my troubled soul with technobabble!") Because...

* Nanobots? Are INTERESTING! Wee killer robot brain invaders! I loved the carry-over from Progeny! Heck, the carry-over from Hot Zone and the way the nanovirus terrified its victims with shadowy hallucinations before it killed them. Loved the vengeful Niam! Loved Beckett and McKay's frantic search for a cure! Alas, the interesting microscopic robots got, what, 15 minutes of exposition? I'm still confused as hell by them -- how they work, what they were trying to accomplish, whether this brain-disassembling thing was something the Ancients programmed into themselves or Niam whipped up on the spur of the moment. We need another episode to explain what happened in this episode! Why didn't the nanobots attack Teyla and Dex when the were pulling Niam off Weir in the shuttle? They touched him too! For that matter, why didn't McKay get infected when Charles Emerson Winchester The Replicator lunged for his throat?

* Weir healed herself with the power of positive thinking? Seriously? Because Sheppard...talked to her? Touched her arm? We are getting perilously close to healing sex territory here, people.

* Weir's mom is alive? No farewell videotape for your mom before the Siege, Elizabeth? You use your precious video time to break up with Simon instead? That's kind of crummy.

Whew. I feel better now. I've drained the festering wound And next week's episode looks like it's going to rock my socks.

Korean_Turtle87
August 20th, 2006, 08:19 AM
i thought it was a waste of an episode

lirenel
August 20th, 2006, 10:39 AM
The hell? I hate an episode that everybody else seems to love? Excellent! Finally, I can unpack all my most unflattering adjectives!

Usually, I'm Little Mary Sunshine about our weekly outings -- easily amused, tolerant of plot holes and continuity lapses and weird characterization and the show's complete inability to pass up a cool Ancient city or ship without blowing it up before I have a chance to play with it. I'm easy that way.

That said. Oh my freaking god. This episode bored me to clawing my eyeballs out.

Not that there weren't things to love. Plenty of deliciously creepy moments and some fine, fine examples of the team rallying 'round. I loved Torri Higginson's performance -- taut, desperate and believable.

I like Weir plots! While You Were Sleeping was one of my favorite episodes and I loved her venture into evil action mode in The Long Goodbye (what is it with evil aliens invading Weir's brain? Beckett's going to have to install an on-ramp in her ear canal at this rate.) And Sheppard. Aw, Sheppard. C'mere and let me hug your self-sacrificing head! And McKay, who knows what a brilliant idea looks like because he's had more than a few while standing in front of a mirror. Mad love!

Now that I've purged myself of the warm fuzzies...

Shout, shout, let it all out. These are the things I could do without:

* Yet another bunch of aliens lulling the foolish humans into a false illusion that they're back on Earth. At least in "Home" it made a certain amount of sense. But honestly, if the nanobots wanted to keep Weir docile while they went about disassembling her brain -- wouldn't it have made more sense to fool her into believing she was in the middle of an average day on Atlantis, doing paperwork.? Why cobble up the intense stress of chucking her into a hallucinatory mental ward. Wouldn't that make her fight the illusion even more?

* The planet Earth is boring. Somebody should cross-stitch this on a sampler and mail it to Vancouver. Booooooring. I live in Washington, D.C. If I want to watch people teach political science, negotiate treaties or get hauled off to the mental ward (I'm looking at *you,* Senator Allen!) I'll open up a window. Which brings us to...

* You're not fooling anybody, writers! We know the past two years haven't all been a beautiful dream. You can spend half an hour building the illusion. You can make it a three-episode arc in which we watch Weir go shopping, get a pedicure and learn macrame. We're still not going to believe it. And we know the mystery's not going to get solved until we get back to Atlantis. So get us back to Atlantis, pronto! I was writhing on the floor by the end of the first half hour. ("Take us back to the city! Cruel writers! Take us back to Atlantis and soothe my troubled soul with technobabble!") Because...

* Nanobots? Are INTERESTING! Wee killer robot brain invaders! I loved the carry-over from Progeny! Heck, the carry-over from Hot Zone and the way the nanovirus terrified its victims with shadowy hallucinations before it killed them. Loved the vengeful Niam! Loved Beckett and McKay's frantic search for a cure! Alas, the interesting microscopic robots got, what, 15 minutes of exposition? I'm still confused as hell by them -- how they work, what they were trying to accomplish, whether this brain-disassembling thing was something the Ancients programmed into themselves or Niam whipped up on the spur of the moment. We need another episode to explain what happened in this episode! Why didn't the nanobots attack Teyla and Dex when the were pulling Niam off Weir in the shuttle? They touched him too! For that matter, why didn't McKay get infected when Charles Emerson Winchester The Replicator lunged for his throat?

* Weir healed herself with the power of positive thinking? Seriously? Because Sheppard...talked to her? Touched her arm? We are getting perilously close to healing sex territory here, people.

* Weir's mom is alive? No farewell videotape for your mom before the Siege, Elizabeth? You use your precious video time to break up with Simon instead? That's kind of crummy.

Whew. I feel better now. I've drained the festering wound And next week's episode looks like it's going to rock my socks.

You've basically just stated everything I thought about this episode. Very well said, thank you. Though I don't really hate it, I'm just ambivalent. They could have done this sooo much better.

snoopoony
August 20th, 2006, 12:37 PM
Like Reaceania, I'm surprised to see such reactions to the episode.

I understand that there might be some people who loves an episode, some who likes it, some who has no opinion, and some who dislikes it. But I never thought I'd see such a polarisation in the comments. Either it was the best episode ever, either it was the worse.

To be honest, unless you're a Weir-hater, I don't really understand how you can hate the episode that much. You can find it less interesting than others, as the focus is on the character you dislike, but that much hatred...

I found the episode rather interesting. I know the story has been used already, but all stories have, and on other shows than Stargate. I think it's a fake argument. The only thing that matters when you watch a movie, a TV show or even when you read a book, is not to find a story that is original, because it's very rare, the onyl interesting thing to look at is the way the story is handled. At least, that's what I think.

I thought Torri Higginson was very good. I wasn't a fan of her playing in the first episodes of season 1, I admit, but she really got into a character after and her performance on the Real World was perfect. She was subtle, and not too much in the excess. It really fitted with the tone of the episode. We learnt some things about her, if you pay some attention to the episode. I don't what you were looking for: did you expect something along the line 'when I was 8, I..., when I was 16, I....' The story wasn't about clips being put the one after the other, it was about a psychological experience, and how you respond to that. You may have seen such a story on Charmed or Buffy, but each actress played their role differently, just rewatch the episodes.

I liked the 2nd part too, but I kind of wish that the story would have continued the way it had started, but it's a team TV show, so I guess we needed to get back to Atlantis. As a shipper, I really enjoyed John/Elizabeth connection, but I won't go on that because I suppose it's already been said. The only thing I'd say is that I just can't understand why everyone seems so keen on denying every Sheppard/Weir moment. I never diminished Sheppard and Teyla moment in Sateda. I didn't find it shippy, but I see perfectly how others could. The same goes for other ships. I know Sheppard has done what he'd probably would have done for any member of his team, he said so in Sateda. But, what strikes me is that he is the only one really showing concern, talking to her... 42 minutes or not, I would have thought it would have been nice to see Mckay or Teyla's concern a bit more. I thought too that Carson gave up on her a bit early (that's the thing that I really disliked in the episode: he must have used the sentence "we're losing her" like three times in ten minutes... grrr).

The transitions between the different scenes were most of them well done. And the episode just followed its course nicely, one thing leadind very naturally to another. I liked how John's words influenced Elizabeth in The Real World, though I'm still wondering about how the nanites could disappear from her body. I can quite understand the battle of wills, it's a nice concept, but I don't really how that could erase the nanites. But it's Stargate, and I've seen much bigger questions being left without an answer, so again, that you felt so frustrated by what seems a Deus Ex Machina is quite exaggerated in my opinion.

That was just my own view of the episode and of the few comments I have seen here. No offense was intented, because I respect everyone's opinion. :)

For those of you who disliked the episode that much, I hope you'll find the next ones better ;)

Ironic
August 20th, 2006, 01:27 PM
To be honest, unless you're a Weir-hater, I don't really understand how you can hate the episode that much. You can find it less interesting than others, as the focus is on the character you dislike, but that much hatred...


I was thinking something similiar. I'm honestly surprised that anyone could call this the worst SGA episode ever - especially with other trash out there like "The Tower," "Sanctuary," and (more of a personal opinion, of course, instead of general concensus) "Irresistable."

Dorka
August 20th, 2006, 01:39 PM
I finally watched this episode... and I have to say, I'm totaly in Love with it!

First of all... I can understand it if some people didn't like it or found it boring, if you don't care too much for the character of Elizabeth Weir, well then I guess it was that cuz I on my hand didn't liked "Grace under Pressure" too much either, cuz that was boring to ME but for a McKay-fan it had to be heaven *g*

So, yeah I'm a big fan of Elizabeth and Torri and this episode just gave me even more then I expected! I mean we don't get very much time for Elizabeth usually, she's mostly in Atlantis and there on a few meetings so after 26 Episode I'm VERY happy we got a PURE Elizabeth episode.

In my eyes it was very well done. I liked the storyline (even if it was done already in other shows...you can't do anything, that wasn't already done somewhere in the world! if you do, then you deserve an oscar, but that's only one person per year :p) and especially the directing. Liked the camera moves, and how the story was told, it had some very nice shots in it!

I liked the little extra informations, like seeing Elizabeth' mother, the watch, the little story about elizabeth' childhood and that we saw what she was doing before she came to Atlantis... I never tought of her teaching until now ;) I think for a 3rd season this was just right. It's not the target to learn all about a person from a-z but it's more that you've getting a feeling for her, I think that was well done, cuz I now see her with other eyes a bit.

SciFi is still very much about characters and relationsships acceptance, so I very much adore it when we don't only get those great visual effects, but also very emotional stuff, it's good that it's outweight ;)
As for the nanite things... I'm usually VERY bad in understanding english when it comes to that techno-babble and science things, but I think even I understood what Carson and McKay said...okay at the end it really wasn't very logic that John didn't get infected.... but I don't really care about that "not 100% explained thing" too much cuz I had fun warching this episode, and that's what a TV-show is all about ;)

So my points would be 9.5/10 ;)

Well I'm happy that we got this episode this year!

doylefan22
August 20th, 2006, 01:50 PM
The only thing I'd say is that I just can't understand why everyone seems so keen on denying every Sheppard/Weir moment. I never diminished Sheppard and Teyla moment in Sateda. I didn't find it shippy, but I see perfectly how others could. The same goes for other ships. I know Sheppard has done what he'd probably would have done for any member of his team, he said so in Sateda. But, what strikes me is that he is the only one really showing concern, talking to her... 42 minutes or not, I would have thought it would have been nice to see Mckay or Teyla's concern a bit more. I thought too that Carson gave up on her a bit early (that's the thing that I really disliked in the episode: he must have used the sentence "we're losing her" like three times in ten minutes... grrr).

That's the only part of your post I'd disagree with.

I personally don't see anything particularly shippy between Sheppard and Weir, mainly because I don't really see how he acts any differently towards her than he does the others. I like their interaction and I think they have a good working relationship and a rather funny brother/sister teasing type thing going on. Just no romance there. His actions in The Real World didn't stand out as shippy because, yes, he would have done that for anyone - he wouldn't have behaved any differently if it was Teyla, Rodney or Ronon in that situation. He's just that kinda guy. :)

Not wanting to start shipping arguements (heaven forbid!) or anything. I can see why the shippers could say that it was shippy, but I also don't think it was undeniably so and I didn't think anyone diminished the moment by saying that - they just didn't see it that way.

The reason why I think John was one talking to her was because, to be honest, he's actually rather useless in that situation. There's little he can practically do and John doesn't like standing around and doing nothing so he does what he can. Ronon is always a man of few words and so I could understand why he was so silent. Teyla - well my pet peeve of the episode was that she didn't get involved more.

Rodney's reaction was totally him. He didn't stand there fretting because when things are bad he falls back on his science - it's something he can deal with, something he can do and something he can lose himself in. He was clearly frustrated and snippy when things weren't going well and excited and pleased when they were. That's Rodney - he's just not very good at showing emotions in other ways. Carson was his usual calm, rational but honest self. I don't think he ever gave up on her but he's not one to sugar coat the situation - he tells it like it is.

Snork
August 20th, 2006, 02:01 PM
So Cameron from Ferris Bueller is Fletcher.

RoryJ
August 20th, 2006, 02:05 PM
I thought the suspense was very palpable. I'd read the spoilers a long time ago, so I knew what was happening right off the bat, but I was still interested in seeing how Elizabeth discovered something was off and how she dealt with it. And seeing the weird visions of John creeped me out just as much as her, even though I figured out it was him the first time Jack went all wobbley.

I'm seeing an even split between calling this "backstory" and calling it "development". I say it was the first one more, but I feel Elizabeth will still progress from this ep. I just hope there's not a case of the reset button on this or it will be a waste of a fantastically written and beatifully acted episode.

(and ITA with comparing this to an episode of X-Files; that show had a ton of episodes that were very slow and quiet, but it still held my attention for the psycho-drama, which I feel TRW is)

doylefan22
August 20th, 2006, 02:16 PM
I thought the suspense was very palpable. I'd read the spoilers a long time ago, so I knew what was happening right off the bat, but I was still interested in seeing how Elizabeth discovered something was off and how to dealt with it.

In the end that's the point of these episodes, isn't it? Not really seeing what happens or how it happens but how the character deals with it. As Torri said in her interview, SGA is plot driven rather than character driven. I thought this mixed the two quite well.


I'm seeing an even split between calling this "backstory" and calling it "development".

I'd probably call it more a character study. She doesn't really change during this episode and we only find out a little of her background. It does give us a chance to see her in a very different situation though and learn more about how the character reacts.

Poltergeist
August 20th, 2006, 03:54 PM
It wasn't as bad as I thought it would be, but I'm positive I'll never watch it again.

Ironic
August 20th, 2006, 04:33 PM
It wasn't as bad as I thought it would be, but I'm positive I'll never watch it again.
I've watched it like two and a half times already. *hangs head in shame* Yes, that is slightly pathetic. It's just so good, though!

mckaysgirl
August 20th, 2006, 04:37 PM
I liked the episdoe. It may have been similar to other shows but I thought it was very well done. I liked seeing John a little more vulnerable and helpless. And I enjoyed finding out a little more about Elizabeth.

Goddess
August 20th, 2006, 05:14 PM
I was actually suprised how much I enjoyed this episode. When I saw the trailer I was bummed because a) I don't like Weir that much and b) this plot has been done to death on other shows (Buffy and Farscape anyone??).
However, after seeing the episode I've decided it turned out to be one of SGA's best so far. I can't quite put my finger on what made this episode good, though. I think it must have been the mix of all different elements. And for the first time I found myself rooting for Weir rather than wanting to kick her off the screen. Okay, so the whole "fight it with your mind" thing was a little weak, but overall the episode was quite well done. Interesting story arc with these replicator like things. Hope to see more in the future.

Blower'sGate
August 20th, 2006, 05:33 PM
I'm in shock...'You like me, you really like me!!'---Okay, that sounded as bad as when it was first coined by Sally Fields, although I do really like her work; but that's all besides the point. :rolleyes:

Yes Vaberella, "l like you, I really like you!!"-And it's actually weird, considering most of my opinions and comments can't possibly match with yours^^, but anyway I support many of your ideas because this show is obviously unperfect.


I wanted to make a clarification. I upgraded the episode after I gave my rather wacked out summary, the my summary made me laugh so I upgraded. The episode was poorly made and it wasn't a smoking ember at all.

Again!!!! I guess we can never stick to our previous summaries of an episode after watching it sixth time in a row, or something like that! And after reading your third upgrade:)


Continuity was thrown out the window...don't get me wrong, I'm very familiar with retconning, since Marvel has been messing with my brain functions and my memory synapses for years now. But this is a three season show compared to an about 40 year comic businenss. So we have 3 seasons and when it comes to the Asurans 3 eps during all that time, two of which were sequestered in S3 so far. Then we have the lack of development of the character, which was really stupid. The utter boredom of the episode which just dragged on, and even those who liked it---had to say it lagged for moments...I'm surprised I didn't fall asleep during that time. And lastly, there was more about Shep in the couple of seconds he got than about Weir in the 35 minutes she got, and sadly the team was really not used to their capacity as they could.

It's hard for me to say it but I do agree with you on this.... But anyway I'm glad you didn't fall asleep and still gave a (u'll never say it anyway :p)chance to the episode^^


Unfortunately there was zero development. We know Weir's a fighter, we saw this in The Eye/Storm, we saw this in The Siege 1 or 2, so I got nothing there. I know she's a supposed diplomat/negotiator, the words have been slapped in my face (although I haven't seen them enacted). I know she's a teacher at Georgetown, 'What's new pussycat?! Is all I'm asking.' I knew Weir had a dog, I was shown the fact in 'Home.' I know she had a lover, given to me in Rising and Home. I know Weir was helping the government...what don't I know about Weir is what I have to ask, that was revealed to me in this episode?! It gave me nothing. I was lost in a haze of what I know. This clearly states it wasn't really Weir centric, just lots of pictures of her doing things, but we got nothing on Weir.

Just so you I know, I have no recall that a centric episode for a character has to always be about a character backstory. This episode wasn't about her backstory at all in my opinion. What I mean is that, like you said, there was no real point in showing us her mother or her dead father's watch, but I've got to say I like Torri's dog so, it really pleased me (but that's just, me there's still no point). It was about what the nanities did to her mind, using some of her memories to trick her mind into commiting suicide in a way... So if you look at the episode like this, I think it was really interresting...But still it's a complicated way of seeing things. Anyway as a Weir fan I'm still waiting for her backstory but it doesn't necessarly has to be in a centric weir backstory episode witch in my opinion is quite hard to do, except if the writers do it like in "Lost". I liked this episode the way it was. I just can't expect more than what it just is. An episode centered on the leader of Atlantis' expedition who was, for once, the one in danger here.
But the little we learned about Weir in this episode may still be useful to the show. I have no idea how but it's still a possibility. But IMHO I don't think Carl Binder is working on it for the moment being. And if he was there mostly would have been a hint in the episode about it.


Now onto continuity. Now I know HZ like the back of my hands, I've watched it over and over again, mainly because I love McKay, Zelenka, Ford---and prime numbers. So I was playing along, I'm a math geek---it compliments my obsession with Sudoku. Anyway, it's also the ep with J/T sparring, we know the Asurans are the nanites in HZ, but within human form from Progeny. We know that the bloody ancients are immune...much like McKay was immune to the virus in HZ, now explain to me why John needed to be quarantined?! The nanites are to kill the wraith, and unfortunately take on humans too....why would they then be wanting to quarantine John----he wouldn't be infected, same goes for McKay or Beckett, and Ronon was too far away---he's seriously afraid of Weir cooties (smart man) and the only one who shoul dhave been out of the room was Teyla---cause those suckers would eat her like pirahna on a chicken leg. Why keep Teyla in a room like that..even if Weir is covered in plastic. And further more, I thought this crud was airborne, like in HZ..now he's like centralized, okay I'll concede that they would fix the sort of specialized version as being more direct and through physical contact, but Teyla touched Niam...I'm still wondering how she didn't get infected as well...not getting it.

Maybe the nanities couldn't affect the others because Niam (while being reset) was ordered to focus on her, she's the leader after all. But again that's another theory. Vaberella, I'm sure all these questions aren't driving you crazy but still, I suppose it's ticking you^^. Like you said you're not sure of what you felt about this episode. Then let it stay that way and try not to focus too much of your energy on it because I think only time will tell; and considering Atltantis has a bunch of stories to tell, we're all far from knowing the truth about the reasons Teyla or the others weren't affected. But Carl Binder needed a reason to make his Weir-centric episode and I'm certain he made a little mistake not telling us why Weir was the only one who got infected. This episode is still close to a sort of 2 parters episode.


As for Ms. Higginson's acting, I mean we all knew she was a good actress, I'm sure some are glad she got to exercise it, but we got a piece similar to this...and I felt far more dynamic for the character in eps like Critical Mass and Michael and Before I sleep, where we're really seen some great drama and angst on her part, especially Critical Mass---which is actually a fave of mine for the character. This wasn't that much of a stretch from those scenes. But her acting and performance really isn't in question or up for debate, just thought I'd throw that in there.

I'm sure deep inside you just adore her ^^ :p Like you said her acting isn't in question here. After that people like her or don't, we're talking about the episode here, it's not the Weir/Torri Wow Thread, the Anti-Weir nor I hate Weir thread.

But as always we have the right to say we liked or dislike and episode. But an episode can be good overall and still be full of flaw, and, the other way around.

jckfan55
August 20th, 2006, 05:46 PM
The plot was pretty old hat & I didn't like that they only let Sheppard talk to her to give her support--I'm pretty sure hearing Teyla and Beckett would have also gotten through to her. But TH did a great job & it was good to see her have something to sink her teeth into. I like it when they mix in moody, mysterious episodes as well as the action-y ones.

Serenity228
August 20th, 2006, 06:14 PM
I enjoyed the episode, but will not count it as one of my favorites. I understand it is getting harder and harder to create a truly new sci-fi idea, but oh my goodness, how many times has this plot been used?!?

Torri did a lovely job. I would not have lasted the first half hour without her intuitive acting and of course, the appearance of RDA did not hurt either. :D :jack_new_anime18:

While watching the episode I had two concerns:

1- Was there a deeper meaning to Weir's medication? Sometimes she seemed to take it, other times she flushed it. I tried to find a connection between her visions and the medication. When she flushed the meds, I thought she was trying to fight her condition and therefore could be contacted by John and her real life more, but I just didn't see that made apparent in the ep. Yet, the doctor, at the end, became very aggitated when he accused her of not taking her meds- but he dialed them back earlier in the ep. I'm so confused! I'm probably looking for depth where none exists.

2- I thought it was Shep that she kept seeing in her visions, as Neim was already present as her doctor. Often times she saw the figure in the vision through a plastic-like material, like John would look to her on the outside of the quarantine area looking in. However, if that was John, why was she scared of the vision? Why was it not comforting to her, like a guardian angel? She was not comforted by the vision until the end when she actually saw John and even then she did not seem to completely recognize him. Perhaps that signified how close the nanites were to winning. And if her visions were of her companions trying to contact her from Atlantis, what did the "bed monster" have to do with anything? Was it supposed to signify the nanites inside of her?

PG15
August 20th, 2006, 07:00 PM
I was never good at disecting poems and short stories for deeper meanings, but here goes:




1- Was there a deeper meaning to Weir's medication? Sometimes she seemed to take it, other times she flushed it. I tried to find a connection between her visions and the medication. When she flushed the meds, I thought she was trying to fight her condition and therefore could be contacted by John and her real life more, but I just didn't see that made apparent in the ep. Yet, the doctor, at the end, became very aggitated when he accused her of not taking her meds- but he dialed them back earlier in the ep. I'm so confused! I'm probably looking for depth where none exists.

The meds is the nanites way to make her give up so they can take over her body. When she takes the meds, the visions go away, and she's happy, which, lets be honest, all people want to be. If she doesn't take the meds, the nanites make her afraid. Basically, the meds are a symbol of the control over Weir the nanites have, so what you got there is completely right.


2- I thought it was Shep that she kept seeing in her visions, as Neim was already present as her doctor. Often times she saw the figure in the vision through a plastic-like material, like John would look to her on the outside of the quarantine area looking in. However, if that was John, why was she scared of the vision? Why was it not comforting to her, like a guardian angel? She was not comforted by the vision until the end when she actually saw John and even then she did not seem to completely recognize him. Perhaps that signified how close the nanites were to winning. And if her visions were of her companions trying to contact her from Atlantis, what did the "bed monster" have to do with anything? Was it supposed to signify the nanites inside of her?

All of the visions, I believe, are ways to induced terror in Weir. Now, logically speaking, she should've been comforted by Shep, like you said, but don't forget that fear is just another brain function, so with the nanites in partial control, they can basically tell her to feel fear when seeing Shep's shadow, and thus make her take meds, which furthers the control the nanites have on her, which eventually would lead to her defeat, and the nanite gaining control of her body.

The end. ;)

Apophis87
August 20th, 2006, 07:07 PM
Was I the only one who thought the O'Neill head spaz thing was like in the Matrix, when the agents take over people's bodies?


And, again, if Weir knows nothing about hockey, how did "fake" Jack know about it?

PG15
August 20th, 2006, 07:23 PM
Maybe she's heard him saying those words before and remembered it?

Peanutbutter
August 20th, 2006, 07:40 PM
Just popping in to propose possible answers to a few questions that have been asked in this thread (though it has pretty much all become a blur at this point so I can't directly quote them).

"Why didn't the nanites spread to Teyla and Ronon?" From what I can recall, neither of them actually touched Niam's flesh (just his sleeves). It could be that direct contact is required.

"How did fake!Jack know about hockey?" The world that Elizabeth was in was something created by the Nanites from the information they extracted from her brain (I'm assuming). Possibly the hockey information was in her subconscious (something she had picked up in passing) but not retained in her conscious thoughts -- therefore the Nanites could access the information but she wasn't aware of it.

"Why didn't the Nanites kill Elizabeth like the ones in Hot Zone killed the expedition members?" The Asurans have been evolving since the Ancients left for Earth and the samples in the lab have not. It doesn't seem like much of a stretch to believe they have changed their methods in that time.

Overall, I really enjoyed this episode, though I do agree the ending/resolution was rather rushed and some answers seemed more convenient than logical. Probably my biggest issue has already been mentioned -- what were they trying to accomplish by making her think Atlantis wasn't real? Pretty important question not to have answered, I know, but I suppose I'll try not to think too hard on it.

Excellent acting by Torri -- and she really is getting more beautiful by the minute. :)

Lizabeth
August 20th, 2006, 07:44 PM
I haven't read everybody elses posts here, but I just wanted to say that The Real World is the best Stargate: Atlantis episode I've ever seen IMO. I adored every bit of it. Great character building, and Elizabeth is my favorite character, so I suppose it's not surprising I would like this one. The acting was awesome and just everything about this episode clicked for me. I especially loved John's reaction to the situation. I think it was great character building on his part as well as Elizabeth's. Their relationship is my favorite and I love to see episodes that bring out how much the Atlantis team members care about each other, especially John adn Elizabeth because, as I said, their relationship is my favorite. I especially am glad to see John worrying over Eizabeth because it seems like Elizabeth has done more than her share of worrying over John. It's nice to see the concern go both ways. I could go into more detail but I'm about ready to go to bed...anyway, I hope to see more awesome episodes like this in the future.

eyecandylovr
August 20th, 2006, 08:54 PM
I found the episode rather interesting. I know the story has been used already, but all stories have, and on other shows than Stargate. I think it's a fake argument. The only thing that matters when you watch a movie, a TV show or even when you read a book, is not to find a story that is original, because it's very rare, the onyl interesting thing to look at is the way the story is handled. At least, that's what I think.



ITA. I must say I'm so sick of the "that story's been done before" line I wanna scream. THERE ARE NO NEW STORIES, folks. Read any Shakespeare? We've been doing variations on his stories for the last 400 years, and he took them himself from even earlier sources. As for sci-fi, you have dozens of talented writers who have written hundreds or thousands of stories over the years. Once again, THERE ARE NO NEW STORIES. Only variations on old ones.

I loved this ep - the acting, seeing Weir in a different setting. In my mind, that's how you learn about a character. Back to Shakespeare, his method of fleshing out characters was to show the same person from different viewpoints, in different situations. It's not collecting facts, it's seeing different facets.

My 2 cents.:)

eyecandylovr
August 20th, 2006, 09:13 PM
Just popping in to propose possible answers to a few questions that have been asked in this thread (though it has pretty much all become a blur at this point so I can't directly quote them).

"Why didn't the nanites spread to Teyla and Ronon?" From what I can recall, neither of them actually touched Niam's flesh (just his sleeves). It could be that direct contact is required.

"How did fake!Jack know about hockey?" The world that Elizabeth was in was something created by the Nanites from the information they extracted from her brain (I'm assuming). Possibly the hockey information was in her subconscious (something she had picked up in passing) but not retained in her conscious thoughts -- therefore the Nanites could access the information but she wasn't aware of it.

"Why didn't the Nanites kill Elizabeth like the ones in Hot Zone killed the expedition members?" The Asurans have been evolving since the Ancients left for Earth and the samples in the lab have not. It doesn't seem like much of a stretch to believe they have changed their methods in that time.

Overall, I really enjoyed this episode, though I do agree the ending/resolution was rather rushed and some answers seemed more convenient than logical. Probably my biggest issue has already been mentioned -- what were they trying to accomplish by making her think Atlantis wasn't real? Pretty important question not to have answered, I know, but I suppose I'll try not to think too hard on it.

Excellent acting by Torri -- and she really is getting more beautiful by the minute. :)

Great answers, and I agree with your points!;)

I just wanted to add - I have the impression that part of the reason Elizabeth was infected and no one else was was that Niam had been reset, meaning the aggression had been added back into his programming, and I think he had intent to infect her. Remember how the Asurans took a 10,000 year old betrayal (not well) and Niam had commented that he saw compassion in Elizabeth. So of course if he feels betrayed, he will feel the most betrayed by her. Therefore, she's the one he physically attacks as soon as he's reset, and I believe he had the intention of infecting her, but never touched anyone else at all (as far as I can remember), and certainly not with that intent.:)

A.L.
August 20th, 2006, 09:44 PM
As expected there's so many wonderfully different views on this epi. I for one enjoyed it. Yes, it had its plot holes, and yes, it dragged a moment or two - most epi's do I've noticed - but I still enjoyed it. And yes, I'm a Shep/Weir shipper but even besides that I thought we saw some great team moments, everyone wanting to help in anyway they can, and frustrated when they couldn't. Plus, we got to learn some stuff about Lizzie, backstory is always good even if it's only a little. And we got Action!Lizzie. Very cool. I love our peaceful diplomat but I like knowing that she'll do what she has to when the situation calls for it.

And I thought this was full of Shep/Weir goodness. Sure, my vision may be skewed because of my preference but I thought it was well done. I was very happy.

And I've got a good feeling about Common Ground. Yeah, I know, previews can be misleading but you've got Kolya and Atlantis facing off again. The Storm/The Eye are two of my favorite epi's. This has got to be fun. :D

AL

RoryJ
August 20th, 2006, 10:04 PM
I'd probably call it more a character study.

I agree; that's a much better description of this episode. And I want more, more, more! I really love how every character seems to be getting an episode mostly to themselves this year! *waits for Teyla's :rolleyes:*


I've watched it like two and a half times already. *hangs head in shame* Yes, that is slightly pathetic. It's just so good, though!

I've watched it three times already. Don't feel bad. ;) :D

Ronnikins
August 21st, 2006, 02:19 AM
I can understand why this episode has polarised opinions. It's not the usual Sifi episode with spaceships, aliens or CGI effects. If one is not a great fan of Weir either, then, yes, this episode wouldn't hold one's interest.

Personally, this ranks as one of my favourite episodes for SGA. It was character driven and had a X-File-ish feel to it (I loved that show).
Everything has been said already and far more eloquently by other posters, so all I want to say is a big thank you to Carl Binder for writing a believable story for a female character. Who said men can't write for women? Carl Binder can write for Weir and Teyla any day in my books. Paul Ziller, first time SG director I think? Great direction, the whole episode had an atmospheric creepiness to it.
Lastly, kudos to Torri Higginson for a brilliant bit of acting showing an emotionally vulnerable yet resilient Weir. She made the character more 3-dimensional with this episode.

TPTB promised more character interaction in Season 3 and they have delivered it with all the episodes seen so far. I liked how the episode showed the close bonds of friendship between Sheppard and Weir. He would do anything to save her (and any other team member...just to clarify) and she trusted him enough to follow him in her dream world. Shipping is all in the eyes of the beholder, so it's really a matter of interpretation but there's no denying the close friendship being forged between the two.

This is just a personal opinion so I won't bother going into any debate if anybody disagrees :D

snoopoony
August 21st, 2006, 03:35 AM
That's the only part of your post I'd disagree with.

I personally don't see anything particularly shippy between Sheppard and Weir, mainly because I don't really see how he acts any differently towards her than he does the others. I like their interaction and I think they have a good working relationship and a rather funny brother/sister teasing type thing going on. Just no romance there. His actions in The Real World didn't stand out as shippy because, yes, he would have done that for anyone - he wouldn't have behaved any differently if it was Teyla, Rodney or Ronon in that situation. He's just that kinda guy. :)

Not wanting to start shipping arguements (heaven forbid!) or anything. I can see why the shippers could say that it was shippy, but I also don't think it was undeniably so and I didn't think anyone diminished the moment by saying that - they just didn't see it that way.

The reason why I think John was one talking to her was because, to be honest, he's actually rather useless in that situation. There's little he can practically do and John doesn't like standing around and doing nothing so he does what he can. Ronon is always a man of few words and so I could understand why he was so silent. Teyla - well my pet peeve of the episode was that she didn't get involved more.

Rodney's reaction was totally him. He didn't stand there fretting because when things are bad he falls back on his science - it's something he can deal with, something he can do and something he can lose himself in. He was clearly frustrated and snippy when things weren't going well and excited and pleased when they were. That's Rodney - he's just not very good at showing emotions in other ways. Carson was his usual calm, rational but honest self. I don't think he ever gave up on her but he's not one to sugar coat the situation - he tells it like it is.


I see your points! But I guess we'll never agree on what's shippy or not. So, I'd say we leave it to that ;)
Anyway, I like your analysis of Rodney and I surely and totally agree. It's just that most of the characters' reactions were a bit... well... unseen, as far as the screen time of the characters is concerned. I mean, we barely see them... That's the only negative point I could make about the episode. And still I think TPTB could have made Carson say other things than 'We're losing her' every five minutes :p

Didn't I say it already? I love your sig. It's very nice.

LoveYouBaby
August 21st, 2006, 04:15 AM
Hello everybody, long time no respond from me, been busy in Los Angeles!


Anyho, I thought this episode was performed magnificently, especially by Tori. Boy, was she good in this episode!!! She gave the character (Weir) such depth and punch, a 9er! =D

PegasusPrincess
August 21st, 2006, 06:29 AM
I was suprised by how much I liked this episode as I'm usually a bit of a 'gimme action' type.
Loved the character building of Weir, and showing the growing friendship, respect and bond between the main characters. It was nice to see Sheppard in a situation that wasn't military but he'd still risk his life to try and save someone he cares about.
Torri's acting abilities were really showed well in this ep.
8/10

Ragnarok13
August 21st, 2006, 08:03 AM
this wasnt my favorite episode. i didnt hate it but i didnt enjoy it like i did 200. it seems like every season there an ep where some one goes crazy or is living in a dream world, or is it just me? i was happy to see the guy from ferris buelers day off doing stuff again. doesnt he have a movie coming out soon? i think the writers made a twilight zone referance in this episode. wiloughby was both the name of the hospital and an episode of TZ in which a overworked businessman has dreams on a train of a pre civil war town called wiloughby.he keeps trying to stay in wiloughby but he cant. at the end he is able to stay in wiloughby, but in real life he jumps of the train and dies. the ambulance the takes the body is from wiloughby hospital. soooo yeah

wams352
August 21st, 2006, 08:52 AM
In a word: bleah. I am not a fan of Torri/Weir at all. I thought SGA was getting interesting again this season but this was just a drippy episode for me. And all those medical/science people available in Atlantis and the ONLY ones standing outside the tent are Carson, McKay, Ronan, Teyla & Shep?

And I love RDA but I thought his acting was a bit stiff in both this and in 200?? Don't flay me for that comment please :)

RoryJ
August 21st, 2006, 10:32 AM
And I love RDA but I thought his acting was a bit stiff in both this and in 200?? Don't flay me for that comment please :)

Even though he did the show for so long, it still must've felt a bit awkward coming back into the fold for 200. And as for TRW - it really wasn't him, so I took that stiff/awkward vibe as intentional to show that not all was as it seemed. :)

LoneStar1836
August 21st, 2006, 10:40 AM
I liked this episode. Not loved….just liked. Rather dragged there for the first half.

I appreciated the episode more for the acting and directing. Not so much for the writing which is a shame because Carl Binder wrote this one so I was expecting good things when I read his name in the credits. I’m not really a fan of Weir, but I like character episodes when they are done well so focusing on one character isn’t a problem for me (The Changeling and Forever in a Day are two of my all-time favorite SG-1 episodes. Though it took several viewings for me to appreciate both of them.), but this still wasn’t quite the story I was looking for. Torri did a fine job so props to her. :) Nice job by RDA as well. (I’m one of those that thought he was phoning it in in S8. ;)) And nice work by whoever directed this one.

Royal_Nonesuch
August 21st, 2006, 11:10 AM
I quite enjoyed this episode. I thought it was written and directed quite well and contained some very creepy moments. Torri did an excellent job selling the hauntings. I thought the cut aways to Atlantis were very effective--the pacing didn't bother me. I loved all the Jack and Weir scenes. They have a great repartee and his presence made the fantasy land much more interesting which reminds me of the fantasizing quote from Jack--great stuff.

I'm glad the SG writers are willing to do episodes like these. While the action and snarkiness of a typical episode is fantastic, episodes like these are crucial in making characters more human. Without that, it would be difficult to care for them in the other perilous situations they are invloved in.




RDA being in it, was I the only one to pick up on another ship (Jack/Weir), and then the more obvious ship of (Weir/John). Anyways, this episode was good, and did manage to frighten me a bit (the mystery thing raising up in her bed and through the hospital curtains was very creepy). All in all, whilst not the best episode, was a decent enough episode that I'll give it a 7 or 8.

You definitely were not. I noticed it quite clearly (although I do enjoy Jack/Liz in the first place). I think the nanites recognized that Liz had a lot of respect for Jack and a possible thing for him--otherwise why not send Landry, Daniel or even a repro-Shep? (ignoring the reality factor that RDA was available lol). I think the Repli!Jack was very friendly with liz--trying to make her stay possibly? All of their moments seemed "close" but I particularly liked the scene where Jack comes to ask Liz to return to her UN work, she calls him "general" and he insists on being called "Jack" and Elizabeth coyly responds "which Jack?"--very cute. The other moment was when they were about to enter the negotiations and Jack references Hockey and Liz repsonds "I don't know anything about football". He replied "Or Hockey apparently". Too bad it was all repli.

I'll stop there and take the rest to the Jack/Liz ship thread lol.

Overall a strong episode with some very un-Gate like elements that were refreshing, a 9/10

Royal

BubblingOverWithIdeas
August 21st, 2006, 11:24 AM
Eh. It was pretty in-your-face. It put me off, anyway.

Well, while there have been attraction moments between Sheppard and Weir in the past, I didn't see anything in this episode that didn't fit in the near and dear friend/close as family category.

P.S,
PG-15, Peanutbutter, and Eyecandylover made good points.

vaberella
August 21st, 2006, 09:21 PM
So Cameron from Ferris Bueller is Fletcher.
Apparently, so far he was the only real plus with this ep. I kept having Bueller flash backs.



I'm seeing an even split between calling this "backstory" and calling it "development". I say it was the first one more, but I feel Elizabeth will still progress from this ep. I just hope there's not a case of the reset button on this or it will be a waste of a fantastically written and beatifully acted episode.
Backstory to me doesn't speak of only let's say someone's history, I want to see what their reactions would be in a situation and why. And backstory is development, because the character would not be the character without this background information which led to it's current development. There was no progression of the character---for the character to progress some more. It was just there. There's no added essence, there wasn't anything that was missing before that's been cleared up, it's just an episode. It's like Irresistable really----no purpose and no reason...beyond the fact that we know that our white blood cells can take on the nanites and all we need is the power of self (where is Depak Chopra when you need him) to overcome. Lame-o! It's a rather corny concept which wasn't even really expanded well, when it could be.


(and ITA with comparing this to an episode of X-Files; that show had a ton of episodes that were very slow and quiet, but it still held my attention for the psycho-drama, which I feel TRW is)
I'll assume your speaking to my post, since I'm the ONLY one to compare to X-Files; a few others compared it to Buffy. I compared it to one X-Files ep, not the entire series, clearly stated in my post. When Mulder went nutty and had to get lobotomy, that was bloody fantastic and it was hard core. Of course it was so intense they needed 2 episodes for it. But that's the point, this should have been someething really emotionally taxing.

I don't see being able to use the internet and pretty much walk freely, or not being watched to swallow the meds, as being emotionally taxing. Actually the main time I saw something was when she was told that Simon died and when they gave her, her dad's pocket watch. Overall, it wasn't very emotional.



Again!!!! I guess we can never stick to our previous summaries of an episode after watching it sixth time in a row, or something like that! And after reading your third upgrade:)
I didn't give it a third upgrade, it's to explain my point more clearly based on my first post, which is more of negative look at the episode. The second post was to answer Willow's Cat, and further more I had a laugh at myself---so I gave my review a 5/10 and it better explained my numbness. Where I didn't hate it or like it, the 2 was a straight hate. I just recieved nothing from the episode.


It's hard for me to say it but I do agree with you on this.... But anyway I'm glad you didn't fall asleep and still gave a (u'll never say it anyway :p)chance to the episode^^
I have to say, most people assume to know me alot on this board, and most of the time they're shep/weir shippers. I don't get it. I concede when I have to and I agree with people I normally wouldn't. It just blows my mind the assumptions. But I will say this, I watch every SGA ep, if not, I cannot successfully argue my points. And since you and a few other's no me so well, you'd know that I like having enough background knowledge to express my opinion. I may have been bored, but I pay attention and anyway I wasn't expecting this episode to be so dry, it was a surprising disappointment---reminds me of how I felt about Weir in general and Noreena's character presence in Inferno.


Just so you I know, I have no recall that a centric episode for a character has to always be about a character backstory. This episode wasn't about her backstory at all in my opinion. What I mean is that, like you said, there was no real point in showing us her mother or her dead father's watch, but I've got to say I like Torri's dog so, it really pleased me (but that's just, me there's still no point). It was about what the nanities did to her mind, using some of her memories to trick her mind into commiting suicide in a way... So if you look at the episode like this, I think it was really interresting...But still it's a complicated way of seeing things. Anyway as a Weir fan I'm still waiting for her backstory but it doesn't necessarly has to be in a centric weir backstory episode witch in my opinion is quite hard to do, except if the writers do it like in "Lost". I liked this episode the way it was. I just can't expect more than what it just is. An episode centered on the leader of Atlantis' expedition who was, for once, the one in danger here.
But the little we learned about Weir in this episode may still be useful to the show. I have no idea how but it's still a possibility. But IMHO I don't think Carl Binder is working on it for the moment being. And if he was there mostly would have been a hint in the episode about it.

There is a bit to respond to in this ep. I wasn't expecting to waste my time on Weir's dog. I was expecting to watch a show. There may be Weir/Torri fanatics who wanted to see her dog, but my concern is not the dog. If the dog has some weird wraith power and or was a delicacy in Athosian meals, then maybe I'd care. But for a dog to be highlight makes it even more depressing. As for backstory, I put a lot in backstory---I consider past character actions or situations and or just situations added to backstory to give us development. But as you said it doesn't have to be just backstory. I don't think her going to sleep, waking in the morning, or opening her closet to blue water as development of a character, or adds anything to her.
The HIV virus and SLE (systemic lupus erythamatosis) tricks your immune system into attacking itself--so in affect your body is committing suicide. But still even the more drama wouldn't make me understand the real purpose of the ep or it's overal contribution to the SGA world. As I mentioned Iressistable didn't add anything and i wasn't expecting it too. But I was expecting more from TRW but got the same wasted fluff..and sorry to say The Tower gave more to me in it's eposide than this did.
As for Lost, don't know the show, and don't watch it. As for Weir being in danger she has been, it's nothing new. The Siege 1 and The Eye/Storm.
BG explain to me what we've learned about Weir in this episode that can be found useful in future eps, because as I mentioned, I don't see it.
And as mentioned by another poster, we know her mum is still alive, it's rather insulting to the character that she'd send a message to Simon and yet nothing for her own mum. I don't get it.


Maybe the nanities couldn't affect the others because Niam (while being reset) was ordered to focus on her, she's the leader after all. But again that's another theory. Vaberella, I'm sure all these questions aren't driving you crazy but still, I suppose it's ticking you^^. Like you said you're not sure of what you felt about this episode. Then let it stay that way and try not to focus too much of your energy on it because I think only time will tell; and considering Atltantis has a bunch of stories to tell, we're all far from knowing the truth about the reasons Teyla or the others weren't affected. But Carl Binder needed a reason to make his Weir-centric episode and I'm certain he made a little mistake not telling us why Weir was the only one who got infected. This episode is still close to a sort of 2 parters episode.
Noted and understood. As I said, I plan on watching the eps, I just find these mistakes rather glaring than not.


I'm sure deep inside you just adore her ^^ :p Like you said her acting isn't in question here. After that people like her or don't, we're talking about the episode here, it's not the Weir/Torri Wow Thread, the Anti-Weir nor I hate Weir thread.
Not so deep and very much in the surface I have stated continously in many posts I would have idolized the characterization. As a womanist, one of my main things is seeing substantive representation of my sex on television. Unfortunately I don't see that in Weir.
As for my statement on Torri/Weir, it was only in reference to the other posts commending Torri on a job well done..since the episode was predominantly on her.


But as always we have the right to say we liked or dislike and episode. But an episode can be good overall and still be full of flaw, and, the other way around.
I agree with that, but this epside had nothing to offer. I didn't get anything from it. Irresistable had nothing to offer, but at least I laughed. The Tower had nothing to offer but at least I got some action moments and a plethora of drones and a kick as sister ship...with a few puddlejumpers. This episode didn't give me any thing and didn't add anything. Added on to the major amount of flaws I've seen in an ep.


Just popping in to propose possible answers to a few questions that have been asked in this thread (though it has pretty much all become a blur at this point so I can't directly quote them).
"Why didn't the nanites spread to Teyla and Ronon?" From what I can recall, neither of them actually touched Niam's flesh (just his sleeves). It could be that direct contact is required.


Rewatch the ep, they touched his arm. His sleeves were pushed upwards...so when he stretched out hsi arm the sleeves went up Ronon and Teyla touched his arms, as I stated.


Well, while there have been attraction moments between Sheppard and Weir in the past, I didn't see anything in this episode that didn't fit in the near and dear friend/close as family category.

I have to agree with this. I saw the same thing. It was just an extention of what was said in Sateda. Weir in catatonic state didn't extend anything out of Shep, that was done in Sateda, we're just seeing more of the actions of what John would do, he did the same in Sateda and we saw that in his mindwarp in Progeny. IT's not to down grade on Shweir love, if that's what's wanted to be seen. But if you see the eps, he didn't open his heart out in his comments and didn't do anything very OTT. Even his actions were harmless to him because he has the ancient gene and we all KNOW that the nanites wouldn't hurt him---so that whole drama of him in some way hurting himself was total and utter crud.

FallenAngelII
August 21st, 2006, 10:39 PM
I loved this episode. Very good acting from Torri Higginson. There should've been more psycho-mumbo-jumbo in there, though. The Nanite's fake world was too perfect. The only real glitch was that weird head-twitching-thingie (which only happened, what, twice?) and John often appearing.

How could Weir not recognize John's silhouette (who else would have hair like that?!)? I recognized it right away. Also, what was up with the weird sounds every time John appeared?

Also, Phantom John was a bit strange. It seems as though the writers wanted to convey to us that he able to communicate with Elizabeth and that she could hear what was being said in the real world (though with special effects).

But then, how did Phantom John know which way for Elizabeth to go?! How did he know the path out of the Fake World was through those soldiers?!

Reaceania
August 22nd, 2006, 03:22 AM
In a word: bleah. I am not a fan of Torri/Weir at all. I thought SGA was getting interesting again this season but this was just a drippy episode for me. And all those medical/science people available in Atlantis and the ONLY ones standing outside the tent are Carson, McKay, Ronan, Teyla & Shep?
There were a few around (I remember at least the blonde female medic and a couple of guys on the swivel chairs and then there were the extra guys in their dodgy-as-all-hell red P4 suits), just not as many as you’d find in an emergency dept on Earth. But even intensive care units aren’t always crammed with nursing staff or doctors. I would expect her close friends to be the ones spending most of the time gazing at her through the plastic. :)

And I love RDA but I thought his acting was a bit stiff in both this and in 200?? Don't flay me for that comment please :) Not at all ;) I guess he was a bit but he wasn’t really in it that much. I’d also guess that he may not feel as much of the cast family as he probably did back in earlier seasons. I’ve got to say I wish they had done the “invisible Jack” story. I can’t believe how much a rotating empty chair made me think of him *LOL*




And as mentioned by another poster, we know her mum is still alive, it's rather insulting to the character that she'd send a message to Simon and yet nothing for her own mum. I don't get it. Okay I must be overlooking something, or I’ve forgotten something. When was it said that she never left a video for her mum? I mean, we saw one to Simon (fair enough) but how does that rule out the possibility that she either sent a separate one for her mum or included a message for both in the one video (we just didn’t see the rest of it)? I need you to explain this one to me, taa. :)



Not so deep and very much in the surface I have stated continously in many posts I would have idolized the characterization. As a womanist, one of my main things is seeing substantive representation of my sex on television. Unfortunately I don't see that in Weir. While I do think that they need to up the ante on the characterisation of Weir (and Teyla) I think Torri has done a wonderful job elevating that character beyond the scripted lines to one that I am quite fond of and proud of, and even respect. To some extent that probably has a lot to do with with me as viewer. I have had more years than I care to remember being trained to pay attention to a person’s behaviour not just what they say. My appreciation for the character is heavily influenced on that (infact probably biased towards that). For me Torri is able to flesh out the character and add layers and substance to her that is not offered in the lines that Weir is given. In a lesser actors hands I doubt I would care about or indeed repect the character anywhere near as much as I do.

The writers need to some serious work on the female characters throughout the stargate universe (which is just SGA now I guess). They have shown with TRW that they can do that when pushed to it. It would be nice to see them do that now in an ep more balanced between the cast than this one.

But back to TRW in particular:
I personally have come away from TRW with a more complex and layered representation of Weir than I had before.



Rewatch the ep, they touched his arm. His sleeves were pushed upwards...so when he stretched out hsi arm the sleeves went up Ronon and Teyla touched his arms, as I stated. okay I’ll enter this debate as well (hey why not ;)). Why is this an issue? Can’t the nanites have been directed by Niam (or the others potentially working through Niam) to go directly into Elizabeth (presumably as the leader she is the one that would be of most interest to the Asurans – she is essentially the Queen of the Atlantis chess board). How do we know that they weren’t injected/infused through her skin by something in/on his hands (that’s what I assumed)? I never had the impression that they were either airborn or simply picked up by transient contact. For all we know he could’ve spat them on her ;)



I have to agree with this. I saw the same thing. It was just an extention of what was said in Sateda. Weir in catatonic state didn't extend anything out of Shep, that was done in Sateda, we're just seeing more of the actions of what John would do, he did the same in Sateda and we saw that in his mindwarp in Progeny. IT's not to down grade on Shweir love, if that's what's wanted to be seen. But if you see the eps, he didn't open his heart out in his comments and didn't do anything very OTT. Even his actions were harmless to him because he has the ancient gene and we all KNOW that the nanites wouldn't hurt him---so that whole drama of him in some way hurting himself was total and utter crud.

I have to disagree with this. We have to remember that the nanites that invaded Weir are not the same as those seen in Hot Zone. It is true that the original nanovirus from HT could not attack anyone with the ATA gene and John would be immune to those. However, the nanites seen in HT were the original form (un-evolved if you will) maintained in stasis or dormant for thousands of years. Unless I’m mistaken the Asurans are the highly evolved form of that virus. While they were programmed not to attack the Ancients, at least when the Ancients were still around, it’s obvious that in their more evolved form that the fail safe directive has been lost. The nanovirus was able to evolve in a relatively short time into the complex human form. I would like to think that over several thousand years since the Ancients left that the nanites would have either a) evolved beyond that programming or b) been able to engineer a solution to it. For evidence for this: it can be recalled that a) the Asurans had no problem with destroying Atlantis which would have in turn destroyed humans with the ATA gene, and b) Oberoth was planning on killing ‘the team” before Niam intervened - (e.g., OBEROTH: “ending their lives seems to be the most prudent course” - one must assume that includes John and Rodney who, of course, have the ATA gene. The Asurans certainly had no problem sticking their hands in John or Rodney’s heads and essentially torturing them). I take that as evidence that Asurans and the nanites they created to invade Weir lack the directive to not harm those with the ATA gene. In short, it was a bold and courageous move for Sheppard to enter the isolation tent and come in physical contact with Weir to save her, and consistent with his comments in Sateda and his “dream” in Progeny that he would risk or give up his life to save those close to him. He was not immune to them.

tiggerific
August 22nd, 2006, 03:45 AM
i personally liked the episode, it was a good episode for Torri :) she doesnt normally get the chance to shine like she did in this one :) plus it was cool to see Bam Bam getting in on the action!

FallenAngelII
August 22nd, 2006, 08:12 AM
I have to disagree with this. We have to remember that the nanites that invaded Weir are not the same as those seen in Hot Zone. It is true that the original nanovirus from HT could not attack anyone with the ATA gene and John would be immune to those. However, the nanites seen in HT were the original form (un-evolved if you will) maintained in stasis or dormant for thousands of years. Unless I’m mistaken the Asurans are the highly evolved form of that virus. While they were programmed not to attack the Ancients, at least when the Ancients were still around, it’s obvious that in their more evolved form that the fail safe directive has been lost. The nanovirus was able to evolve in a relatively short time into the complex human form. I would like to think that over several thousand years since the Ancients left that the nanites would have either a) evolved beyond that programming or b) been able to engineer a solution to it. For evidence for this: it can be recalled that a) the Asurans had no problem with destroying Atlantis which would have in turn destroyed humans with the ATA gene, and b) Oberoth was planning on killing ‘the team” before Niam intervened - (e.g., OBEROTH: “ending their lives seems to be the most prudent course” - one must assume that includes John and Rodney who, of course, have the ATA gene. The Asurans certainly had no problem sticking their hands in John or Rodney’s heads and essentially torturing them). I take that as evidence that Asurans and the nanites they created to invade Weir lack the directive to not harm those with the ATA gene. In short, it was a bold and courageous move for Sheppard to enter the isolation tent and come in physical contact with Weir to save her, and consistent with his comments in Sateda and his “dream” in Progeny that he would risk or give up his life to save those close to him. He was not immune to them.

1) They could attack people with the ATA gene. They just didn't kill them.
2) According to what the writers have told us, the HZ virus was actually created by the Asurans. It's all logical. "Why would anyone invent a virus that only kills humans?" - Because they are pissed at us for being the Ancients' favourite child. And they have a fail-safe that prevents them from harming Ancients. Sure, the Ancients got a few hallucinations out of it, but they didn't die.

Reaceania
August 22nd, 2006, 09:43 PM
1) They could attack people with the ATA gene. They just didn't kill them.
2) According to what the writers have told us, the HZ virus was actually created by the Asurans. It's all logical. "Why would anyone invent a virus that only kills humans?" - Because they are pissed at us for being the Ancients' favourite child. And they have a fail-safe that prevents them from harming Ancients. Sure, the Ancients got a few hallucinations out of it, but they didn't die.

I haven’t read the comments by the writers on this issue. So I can’t comment on those but thanks for clarifying the distinction of the nanovirus in Hot Zone. I was confusing the nanites created by the Ancients to attack the Wraith (these nanites are the progenitors for the Asurans) with the nanites seen in HZ. I had thought they were from similar developmental stock. So thanks for that, but I still don’t think that changes the rest of what I said.

According to Niam in Progeny, the directive given to the progenitor nanites and the original form of the Asurans was that they could not harm the Ancients. It wasn’t just that they couldn’t kill them. We see the highly evolved present-day Asurans, or at least Oberoth, planning to kill off the team which includes at least two members with the ATA gene. On top of that they intended to destroy Atlantis. One obvious outcome of such an action would be the death of many individuals with the ATA gene (they would know that there with people with the ATA gene there from their mind-meldy thing they did). If the failsafe directive was still in operation (and assuming the key element of the directive was anyone with the ATA gene and not some other ancient gene that our humans don’t possess) neither action would be possible.

As far as I am concerned, and given what we saw in Progeny I do not believe that individuals with the ATA gene are immune to the present-day nanites (either the human form replicators or individual nanites that they may create, like those that invaded Weir). As far as I am concerned people with the ATA gene are only immune to the virus which was found in the Ancient viral lab in Hot Zone and which is several thousands of years old.

I’m still standing by my assertion that John wasn’t immune to the nanites that invaded Weir.
(I mean, come on, even Rodney knew that and he’s always right, right ;)).

Ronnikins
August 23rd, 2006, 02:17 AM
I haven’t read the comments by the writers on this issue. So I can’t comment on those but thanks for clarifying the distinction of the nanovirus in Hot Zone. I was confusing the nanites created by the Ancients to attack the Wraith (these nanites are the progenitors for the Asurans) with the nanites seen in HZ. I had thought they were from similar developmental stock. So thanks for that, but I still don’t think that changes the rest of what I said.

According to Niam in Progeny, the directive given to the progenitor nanites and the original form of the Asurans was that they could not harm the Ancients. It wasn’t just that they couldn’t kill them. We see the highly evolved present-day Asurans, or at least Oberoth, planning to kill off the team which includes at least two members with the ATA gene. On top of that they intended to destroy Atlantis. One obvious outcome of such an action would be the death of many individuals with the ATA gene (they would know that there with people with the ATA gene there from their mind-meldy thing they did). If the failsafe directive was still in operation (and assuming the key element of the directive was anyone with the ATA gene and not some other ancient gene that our humans don’t possess) neither action would be possible.

As far as I am concerned, and given what we saw in Progeny I do not believe that individuals with the ATA gene are immune to the present-day nanites (either the human form replicators or individual nanites that they may create, like those that invaded Weir). As far as I am concerned people with the ATA gene are only immune to the virus which was found in the Ancient viral lab in Hot Zone and which is several thousands of years old.

I’m still standing by my assertion that John wasn’t immune to the nanites that invaded Weir.
(I mean, come on, even Rodney knew that and he’s always right, right ;)).

Just wanted to add one extra point here. :D What has not been pointed out was that Shep did not know whether his ancient genes would protect him or not. He took the risk anyway so this was a case of where action spoke louder than words. The whole scene was quite significant and very in character for Sheppard. He said himself he wasn't good at doing "profound" talk. If these nanites were deemed "harmless" by Beckett and co. to those with the Ancient gene then there wouldn't have been any need for hazmat suits for anybody with the gene, eg, Beckett.

Having personally worked in hospital situations including Emergency and ICU, I can safely say that Isolation units are just that, isolation units in a remote area. Minimal human contact except essential personnel at all times so no hustle and bustle of ER, however, family members are allowed to visit with the proper precautions.

Southern Red
August 23rd, 2006, 05:24 AM
Just wanted to add one extra point here. :D What has not be pointed out was that Shep did not know whether his ancient genes would protect him or not. He took the risk anyway so this was a case of where action spoke louder than words. The whole scene was quite significant and very in character for Sheppard. He said himself he wasn't good at doing "profound" talk. If these nanites were deemed "harmless" by Beckett and co. to those with the Ancient gene then there wouldn't have been any need for hazmat suits for anybody with the gene, eg, Beckett.

Having personally worked in hospital situations including Emergency and ICU, I can safely say that Isolation units are just that, isolation units in a remote area. Minimal human contact except essential personnel at all times so no hustle and bustle of ER, however, family members are allowed to visit with the proper precautions.

Good point. And the scene where John rushed in where angels fear to tread showed actual continuity with the scene in Sateda where he told Teyla that he would do anything even die if he had to for the people he had listed. One of which was Elizabeth. Now the question might be why did he think this was what he had to do? But again it was continuity. Even as far back as the pilot John was rushing in and risking his own life to save others. He's the hero.

Dannygirl
August 23rd, 2006, 10:29 PM
Given Weir is my favorite character, I enjoyed this episode. I wasn't bored by it or even wondering what the point of it was. We got to see her not as the Atlantis leader, but as the regular type of person she was on Earth. We met her mother as she saw her and things precious to her. It was nice to see the more human side of Weir with doubts about herself, not to mention her sanity, but also the faith she had in the end with John. Although the world was created by the nanites, they could only draw it from her memory and maybe even her fears.

It was also good to see what length John would go to save her, something that as other posters have mentioned, was a good follow-up to Setida. Next week we'll see just how far Elizabeth would go to save him.

As for the nanites, I just assumed they were the building blocks using her body as a grounds for recreating itself, with a little bit of organic as a means of enhancing, like the borg. Different from the virus in Hot Zone, since that was created soley as a means of killing the humans it contacts with. So if the Asurans did create this virus, it would explain why it killed humans w/o the gene, while sparing the ones with the gene - assuming those were the Ancients.

vaberella
August 23rd, 2006, 10:59 PM
Okay I must be overlooking something, or I’ve forgotten something. When was it said that she never left a video for her mum? I mean, we saw one to Simon (fair enough) but how does that rule out the possibility that she either sent a separate one for her mum or included a message for both in the one video (we just didn’t see the rest of it)? I need you to explain this one to me, taa. :)
It doesn't rule it out, but it wasn't there, so I don't see it as part of canon. So until it's proven as canon, then it doesn't count and I can say that it wasn't there. I'm not going to dance with too much speculation on this..because we saw her leave comment after comment for the dead soldiers...how short would it be to say something to your mum...but it showed that her boyfriend was more imporant.



While I do think that they need to up the ante on the characterisation of Weir (and Teyla) I think Torri has done a wonderful job elevating that character beyond the scripted lines to one that I am quite fond of and proud of, and even respect. To some extent that probably has a lot to do with with me as viewer. I have had more years than I care to remember being trained to pay attention to a person’s behaviour not just what they say. My appreciation for the character is heavily influenced on that (infact probably biased towards that). For me Torri is able to flesh out the character and add layers and substance to her that is not offered in the lines that Weir is given. In a lesser actors hands I doubt I would care about or indeed repect the character anywhere near as much as I do.
What does this have to do with anything? I don't understand this bit of a monologue. No one is knocking the skill of the actor, that shouldn't even be part of the discussion...but the character is not very well put together...and as I mentioned my main focus is on her decisions.


The writers need to some serious work on the female characters throughout the stargate universe (which is just SGA now I guess). They have shown with TRW that they can do that when pushed to it. It would be nice to see them do that now in an ep more balanced between the cast than this one.
But back to TRW in particular:
I personally have come away from TRW with a more complex and layered representation of Weir than I had before.
This initial comment was very interesting, I thought The Gift was perfect in displaying women of SGA and a very balanced approach of it, I also can say the same about Critical Mass. This not the first, I find that the writers do try to do a good job, in Weir; they just make awful mistakes on her leadership skills, which shouldn't be the case. But these decisions are not under debate on this thread. But in those two cases mentioned it was great for both Teyla and Weir, I can actually throw in Conversion in the mix. That's not a problem...but I do complain that the women need more screen play(and also as I mentioned bad character representation, in specific departments). Compared to the men the women are not shown as friends, when they should be, since they're the relatively the same character from two different countries...except Teyla is an orphan and has been more experience in leadership position than Weir does. <----(But again, not really up for debate here, just an added commentary).



okay I’ll enter this debate as well (hey why not ;)). Why is this an issue? Can’t the nanites have been directed by Niam (or the others potentially working through Niam) to go directly into Elizabeth (presumably as the leader she is the one that would be of most interest to the Asurans – she is essentially the Queen of the Atlantis chess board). How do we know that they weren’t injected/infused through her skin by something in/on his hands (that’s what I assumed)? I never had the impression that they were either airborn or simply picked up by transient contact. For all we know he could’ve spat them on her ;)
I wonder if you read my last two posts (since you'd have to understand why I was responding)? It was a question and I feel that it is a continuity problem, because they didn't explain that thought. Anyway I also said in my post, if you read them, because the asurans are a more advanced case of the HZ microtech killers that it could be possible, but it wasn't explained by the writers and I felt it was just a hanging thread.
Weir is the leader of the Atlantis Expedition not the Queen of Atlantis and what's this chessboard thing?! We can pretty much assume the transport through hand, hence the reason I asked why Teyla and Ronon weren't affected since they touched him..and he could have centralized it to attack Weir, but we don't get any definition on that. But again this is an assumption and as I had said; Why Weir alone?...What was going on?

I'm not getting continuity, I don't have a clear understanding, and apparently you don't either hence you ask those final questions. I don't see why it's a big deal that I ask, when it's clear that others are just as confused.



I have to disagree with this. We have to remember that the nanites that invaded Weir are not the same as those seen in Hot Zone. It is true that the original nanovirus from HT could not attack anyone with the ATA gene and John would be immune to those. However, the nanites seen in HT were the original form (un-evolved if you will) maintained in stasis or dormant for thousands of years. Unless I’m mistaken the Asurans are the highly evolved form of that virus. While they were programmed not to attack the Ancients, at least when the Ancients were still around, it’s obvious that in their more evolved form that the fail safe directive has been lost. The nanovirus was able to evolve in a relatively short time into the complex human form. I would like to think that over several thousand years since the Ancients left that the nanites would have either a) evolved beyond that programming or b) been able to engineer a solution to it. For evidence for this: it can be recalled that a) the Asurans had no problem with destroying Atlantis which would have in turn destroyed humans with the ATA gene, and b) Oberoth was planning on killing ‘the team” before Niam intervened - (e.g., OBEROTH: “ending their lives seems to be the most prudent course” - one must assume that includes John and Rodney who, of course, have the ATA gene. The Asurans certainly had no problem sticking their hands in John or Rodney’s heads and essentially torturing them). I take that as evidence that Asurans and the nanites they created to invade Weir lack the directive to not harm those with the ATA gene. In short, it was a bold and courageous move for Sheppard to enter the isolation tent and come in physical contact with Weir to save her, and consistent with his comments in Sateda and his “dream” in Progeny that he would risk or give up his life to save those close to him. He was not immune to them.

Okay, your quoting me, when I was quoting other posts, and based on my own posts, so there was a building discussion here and most of your statements can be found in about 3 of my posts, so there's really nothing for me to remember.

But let's continue. As I had said in another post, I realize that the Asurans are an evolved case of the HZ microtech killers----and I gave room for the Nanites to be evovled as the ASurans are evolved.

If you watch the episode of Progeny you are still aware that they cannot kill the Ancients or attack the ancients. John and McKay still have them, and you even mention that their state in HZ had them as able to affect McKay, but he didn't die---this is in speaking of the nanites--and I doubt the nanites can kill John or McKay because of HZ and of course we don't know the extent of the evolution. It is unlikely that John would still die, because Niam still said we culd not hurt ancients. They could destroy a planet that is predominantly inhabited by humans and their goal is not killing ATA genes just destroying Atlantis---the people there are just 'casualties of war'--so to speak. So even if John got a bit weird, he wouldn't die from them even if their specialized, from my perspective---and based on the end of TRW, I'm correct.

Again we have no clue if they were going to kill the entire people on Atlantis, and it still boggles my mind why Weir didn't ask if she could evacuate her people from Atlantis and the mainland. The statement of Oberoths was only in regards to the team that was on the sister ship of the Asurans, not the people of Atlantis. But again that's not the point--and we have no idea how they were planning on ending their lives. Your statement again boggles me, because we have retconning of a situation that happened in HZ---without rhyme or reason except their specialized. I need a bit more than just that. ---But this is all around Progeny discontinuity--which had plenty of problems, but I still enjoyed since it gave something back to the audience.

Further more, for all your statements and conclusions, it doesn't make sense to me how the nanites were able to focus on Weir to enter and attack, but Ronon and Teyla were not affected. So they were smart enough to affect only Weir and not affect Ronon and Teyla, and intelligent enough to attack John and centralize an affect on John? That doesn't make sense. If their objective is Weir, John wouldn't be a concern of theirs, the wraith gene is like Carson said it would be a diversion of sorts, since their basic make up is meant for the wraith destruction----even if they may be programmed for Weir. Again it's all in the air and your explanation doesn't clear up the continuity issue.

I don't get how in one case it's specialized for Weir and Shep but not for Ronon and Teyla...give me le break! The rest of your statements really don't help or add anything to continuity it just shows the amount of retconning, behind the writer's planning.

This episode was still boring and dry, from my perspective and none of this talk has changed it, but made it worse. It's definitely almost as bad GUP, which I found worse than The Tower.
------------------------------------------------------------------------------
{MOd Snip} It has, what?! About 4 other people who are not shweirs, and maybe two other's who aren't Weir fanatics...and most of the usual episode posters didn't post here, besides myself and PG15. Further more, it's only had 9 pages compared to the 17-25 pages of the other eps.

It's was boring enough that it didn't even bring forth commentary like Irresistable did...which was the lowest ranking ep. This ep may come out on top, from my perspective, beacuse of RDA and his presence in the ep (which was a great deal) and following an excellent ep like Progeny, despite it's continuity issues. I would have expected better writing from this episode but it was boring, lacking and really unfocused for continuity.

I'm sure after this statement---there might be an increase in posts just to disregard my statements, but 17-25 pages is a lot to fill in one day.

doylefan22
August 24th, 2006, 04:07 AM
{Mod SNip}. It has, what?! About 4 other people who are not shweirs, and maybe two other's who aren't Weir fanatics...

Er...I'm not a Shweir fan or a Weir fanatic. I like her character but there again I like all the characters on SGA so...


...and most of the usual episode posters didn't post here, besides myself and PG15. Further more, it's only had 9 pages compared to the 17-25 pages of the other eps.

It's was boring enough that it didn't even bring forth commentary like Irresistable did...which was the lowest ranking ep.

I don't think the number of pages of posts is an accurate measure of how interesting people found an episode. The poll (which seems to be getting far more votes than normal since GW changed the front page) would put this somewhere between 7-8. Which considering how much of a marmite episode this is (people who like Weir, like psychological dramas and like character pieces were generally going to like it whilst people who don't like her and the ones who prefer the more action orientated episodes were generally going to be bored) is a pretty fair assessment.

I just don't think there's much more to say about this episode. It was rather straight forward and there was little of controversy to discuss or speculate on. The people who like it have said everything there is to say as have those who don't. Certainly doesn't mean it was a universally boring episode though. Just, unlike a lot of Stargate, it wasn't all about the plot.

Also, it has to be taken into account it played opposite 200 which, if you look on the SG-1 boards has more replies than any episode (the only one that even got close was Pegasus Project and obviously fans of both shows could comment on that). 200 did take a lot of the focus away from this one and I do think it was a good idea of TPTB to play this quieter, more serious episode against 200. They served as a good contrast.

Sandrock
August 24th, 2006, 08:01 PM
I only have one question about this episode (great episode btw).
Weir is injected with Wraith DNA. The reason provided is that the Asuran nanites will stop attacking Weir and target the Wraith DNA - because it is what they are programmed to do. Yet in 305 Progeny, we are shown that the Asurans didn't want to fight, and it was stated they would never become the weapons the Ancients originally had intended.
Isn't that kind of a contradiction?

PG15
August 24th, 2006, 08:22 PM
The Asurans themselves are sentient beings who can decide who they attack, but the nanites themselves are just machines programmed for destroying Wraith stuff.

Think of it like this: you're brain cell's sole purpose is to stay alive and transmitt electric signals, but when you group a bunch of them together, you get a brain which makes every person unique.

tassiedude
August 24th, 2006, 10:01 PM
Hi can I just ask how did Dr Wier get back to Atlantis I mean I thought the stargate from earth to Atlantis didn't have enough power to make a connection?

Reaceania
August 25th, 2006, 02:22 AM
It doesn't rule it out, but it wasn't there, so I don't see it as part of canon. So until it's proven as canon, then it doesn't count and I can say that it wasn't there. I'm not going to dance with too much speculation on this..because we saw her leave comment after comment for the dead soldiers...how short would it be to say something to your mum...but it showed that her boyfriend was more imporant.
Okay this is logical fallacy. Out of curiosity would you also make the claim, “We do not the see the characters shower or use the lavatory, therefore the people on Atlantis do not shower or use the lavatory” ?
Just curious.


What does this have to do with anything? I don't understand this bit of a monologue. Thankyou, if only I was allowed to call three sentences of what I write daily a monologue. I’m sorry you didn’t understand that but I thought the significance of what I was trying to say was inherent in what I said, but you know, it was the end of several long days so maybe I wasn’t as clear as I thought I was being. I was trying to say that many elements go into making a character in this medium (e.g., the creators, the writers, the actor, the director, the editors, the producers etc will all influence, and ultimately have responsibility for, what we see). I was offering you an explanation, giving you one out of (what I would now guess) many reasons why I view the character differently to you. I will see a person differently to many others, in part, because of what I am trained to focus on. Part of what makes the character is not actually spoken. That part I attribute mostly (but not completely) to the actor.


This initial comment was very interesting, I thought The Gift was perfect in displaying women of SGA and a very balanced approach of it, I also can say the same about Critical Mass. This not the first, I find that the writers do try to do a good job, in Weir; they just make awful mistakes on her leadership skills, which shouldn't be the case. But these decisions are not under debate on this thread. But in those two cases mentioned it was great for both Teyla and Weir, I can actually throw in Conversion in the mix. That's not a problem...but I do complain that the women need more screen play(and also as I mentioned bad character representation, in specific departments). Compared to the men the women are not shown as friends,
I would also like the writers to spend more time address the negotiating skills of Weir. Why she is one of the most sort after negotiators in international politics. We have seen this intermittently but it couldn’t hurt to give a bit more coverage.

I do think that the writers struggle quite a bit with the female characters in the SG universe. I love Sam, Elizabeth, Teyla and I wasn’t trying to suggest that TRW is the only example of them doing or trying to do a good job. I mentioned TRW here as it’s the episode in question and I would like to hope that it serves as an impetus for more development in the upcoming episodes. I would also add BIS, the Seige trilogy and many others to the examples you gave. There is peppered throughout SGA good, though usually all to brief, examples of good character moments for the female characters (inc. Elizabeth, Teyla, Laura, Kate). Rarely do I ever consider these moments approaching the strength of those given to the guys (most notably John and Rodney). I sometimes get the feeling they get a little bit lost with what do with the female characters (just an intermittent feeling not an overriding concern). As example I could the one you have given, the lack of overt development of the relationship between Elizabeth and Teyla. It gets hinted at but a lot of this is simply down to talents of Torri Higginson and Rachel Luttrell, and not really elaborated in the dialogue they are given.
I wonder if you read my last two posts (since you'd have to understand why I was responding)? It was a question and I feel that it is a continuity problem, because they didn't explain that thought. Anyway I also said in my post, if you read them, because the asurans are a more advanced case of the HZ microtech killers that it could be possible, but it wasn't explained by the writers and I felt it was just a hanging thread.
Yep I read them and as I said I just don’t see it being an issue. Maybe I should have just said it’s not an issue for me (but I can’t really see how it would be one in general but that’s just me). However, technically it’s not a continuity error. If they had said (and this is a hypothetical) – anyone that looks at an Asuran is automatically infected with nanites; and then in the next episode only Weir was infected with them even though every other member of the team had looked at an Asuran then that would constitute a continuity error.


Weir is the leader of the Atlantis Expedition not the Queen of Atlantis and what's this chessboard thing?! We can pretty much assume the transport through hand, hence the reason I asked why Teyla and Ronon weren't affected since they touched him..and he could have centralized it to attack Weir, but we don't get any definition on that. But again this is an assumption and as I had said; Why Weir alone?...What was going on?
You’re serious about the chessboard question aren’t you. Okay a chessboard is a board on which one plays the game of chess. (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chess) Chess is a game of strategy which involves amongst many others a particular piece called a Queen which is moved around the board according to certain rules, which brings me to the metaphor (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Metaphor ) that I was drawing. I said that “…she (Weir) is essentially the Queen of the Atlantis chessboard” (note that even a cursory reading of that statement would indicate that I did not say that Weir is the Queen of Atlantis). The idea being of course that she would be a highly strategic piece to capture, or in essence I was giving you a reason (one of many that I can think of off the top of my head but what I’d consider the most likely in this instance) for the very question you ask, “Why Weir”? Strategically (chess aside) if you wage a campaign against your enemy one of the five primary categories that you target in parallel would include enemy leadership. For instance, if someone wanted to destabilise the US and they had in font of them 2 potential targets, one being the President of the USA and the other being an average Joe, they would target the President rather than the “average joe”. No brainer, right?. If I were targetting Altantis, I would take out Weir and then Sheppard. If I had spent some time with them or was able to get some decent intelligence on Atlantis personnel I would then target Rodney (in that order and so on). I really don’t think it takes much effort to come up with a reason why Elizabeth was targeted, especially as they had blown up the Asuran flying city. Just as I don’t think it takes much effort to come up with reason how she infected.

If an explanation is readily available why should they spend valuable time in the episode articulating it.

[Replies continued in the next post because the original response was too long]

Reaceania
August 25th, 2006, 02:31 AM
[the reply continues]


I'm not getting continuity, I don't have a clear understanding, and apparently you don't either hence you ask those final questions. I don't see why it's a big deal that I ask, when it's clear that others are just as confused.

I still don’t get where you think there’s a continuity error, can you explain please?
Ah, no, I don’t have a problem with it. I was giving you a variety of valid means by which Weir might have been selectively infected. Take any that fancies you. There is no continuity error here that I can see.

If you watch the episode of Progeny you are still aware that they cannot kill the Ancients or attack the ancients.
There was no evidence provided in Progeny (that I can recall) that indicated that the present day Asuran’s still have an operational directive that prevents them from harming the Ancients. Indeed, I believe a very strong case can drawn to indicate that such a directive which constrained their progenitor nanites has been lost (see my previous post for this).

John and McKay still have them, and you even mention that their state in HZ had them as able to affect McKay, but he didn't die---this is in speaking of the nanites--and I doubt the nanites can kill John or McKay because of HZ and of course we don't know the extent of the evolution. It is unlikely that John would still die, because Niam still said we culd not hurt ancients. They could destroy a planet that is predominantly inhabited by humans and their goal is not killing ATA genes just destroying Atlantis---the people there are just 'casualties of war'--so to speak. So even if John got a bit weird, he wouldn't die from them even if their specialized, from my perspective---and based on the end of TRW, I'm correct.
First of all the nanovirus found in HZ was several thousands of years old. Just because the ATA gene conferred immunity to that “strain” does not mean that people with the ATA gene would be necessarily immune to different and ostensibly more highly evolved nanites created by the Asurans today. Who said they were specialised?
If I have read you correctly when you say “and based on the end of TRW, I'm correct.”. You’re assertion at the end is another logical fallacy (in this particular case a “negative proof”) if you are using the fact that John wasn’t infected at the end of the episode as “evidence” that he was immune to the nanites that invaded Weir. The logical fallacy invalidates the “argument”.
How’s this for simplicity: Failure to contract a virus after being in the vicinity of one does not constitute immunity.

There is no way that the Ancients would have allowed such a glaring loop hole in the directive to not harm the Ancients that would permit them to be killed off as simply “casualties of war”. That would be like writing a directive that has no hope of working. I’d like to think that the Ancients were at least reasonably smart when writing it.

The statement of Oberoths was only in regards to the team that was on the sister ship of the Asurans, not the people of Atlantis. But again that's not the point--and we have no idea how they were planning on ending their lives. Your statement again boggles me, because we have retconning of a situation that happened in HZ---without rhyme or reason except their specialized. I need a bit more than just that. ---But this is all around Progeny discontinuity--which had plenty of problems, but I still enjoyed since it gave something back to the audience.
Further more, for all your statements and conclusions, it doesn't make sense to me how the nanites were able to focus on Weir to enter and attack, but Ronon and Teyla were not affected. So they were smart enough to affect only Weir and not affect Ronon and Teyla, and intelligent enough to attack John and centralize an affect on John? That doesn't make sense. If their objective is Weir, John wouldn't be a concern of theirs, the wraith gene is like Carson said it would be a diversion of sorts, since their basic make up is meant for the wraith destruction----even if they may be programmed for Weir. Again it's all in the air and your explanation doesn't clear up the continuity issue.
I don't get how in one case it's specialized for Weir and Shep but not for Ronon and Teyla...give me le break! The rest of your statements really don't help or add anything to continuity it just shows the amount of retconning, behind the writer's planning.
I thought my statements were pretty clear myself. I gave you examples of a couple of reasons for both the why and how the nanites may have specifically targeted Weir and not Ronon and Teyla (who had been in physical contact with Niam). In no way does your failure to grasp what happened constitute a continuity error (see my comment above) or indeed constitute retconning when it is explained to you. My statement regarding the possibility that Sheppard was not immune relates to the discussion that, to paraphrase, that his actions in entering the isolation tent were not heroic. To quote you Vaberella (post #165): “Even his actions were harmless to him because he has the ancient gene and we all KNOW that the nanites wouldn't hurt him---so that whole drama of him in some way hurting himself was total and utter crud.”)
His actions were heroic because we (or he) did not know whether he was immune to these nanites, and indeed the available evidence strongly leans in favour of the opposite; that the Asurans and by extension the nanites they can create have evolved beyond the failsafe directive and as such the ATA gene would no longer confer immunity to them. You cannot use ATA induced immunity to the HZ virus as evidence that people with the ATA gene would be immune to the nanites that invaded Weir (it would be something like saying that someone who is immune to SARS is immune to H5N1, so called “bird flu”). Moreover, just because John came in physical contact with Weir does not mean that he would automatically become infected, just as I would not automatically become infected with SARS if I came in contact with someone with SARS. There would be a very high risk for that yes (which is why Sheppard’s actions were heroic - he performed the action with considerable potential risk to himself) but it does not automatically mean that I would contract it. In short, he was one darn lucky boy.

I can’t see a continuity error in there at all. Not a sossle. Sheppard’s actions were heroic: he entered the isolation tent without any clear understanding of his immune status and deliberately came in contact with a person who had what was essentially, a high (near fatal) viral loading.

Loving this forum! :)
Dr (_insert_Reaceania’s_real_name_here)

Reaceania
August 25th, 2006, 02:39 AM
Hi can I just ask how did Dr Wier get back to Atlantis I mean I thought the stargate from earth to Atlantis didn't have enough power to make a connection?
Of course you can. You mean at the end of The Real World right? The journey through the stargate was just symbolic of her escaping the clutches of the nanites that had invaded her body. She was on Atlantis the entire time in the medical unit. There would be several different ways you could interpret the nature of the artificial world she was in, when she thought she was on earth (e.g., just a dream state; maybe the way the higher function sections of her brain interpreted the physiological effects of the nanites etc).

Gabophis
August 25th, 2006, 03:53 AM
realy great episode,i have realy enjoyed it

FallenAngelII
August 25th, 2006, 10:41 AM
I haven’t read the comments by the writers on this issue. So I can’t comment on those but thanks for clarifying the distinction of the nanovirus in Hot Zone. I was confusing the nanites created by the Ancients to attack the Wraith (these nanites are the progenitors for the Asurans) with the nanites seen in HZ. I had thought they were from similar developmental stock. So thanks for that, but I still don’t think that changes the rest of what I said.

According to Niam in Progeny, the directive given to the progenitor nanites and the original form of the Asurans was that they could not harm the Ancients. It wasn’t just that they couldn’t kill them. We see the highly evolved present-day Asurans, or at least Oberoth, planning to kill off the team which includes at least two members with the ATA gene. On top of that they intended to destroy Atlantis. One obvious outcome of such an action would be the death of many individuals with the ATA gene (they would know that there with people with the ATA gene there from their mind-meldy thing they did). If the failsafe directive was still in operation (and assuming the key element of the directive was anyone with the ATA gene and not some other ancient gene that our humans don’t possess) neither action would be possible.

As far as I am concerned, and given what we saw in Progeny I do not believe that individuals with the ATA gene are immune to the present-day nanites (either the human form replicators or individual nanites that they may create, like those that invaded Weir). As far as I am concerned people with the ATA gene are only immune to the virus which was found in the Ancient viral lab in Hot Zone and which is several thousands of years old.

I’m still standing by my assertion that John wasn’t immune to the nanites that invaded Weir.
(I mean, come on, even Rodney knew that and he’s always right, right ;)).

I never argued that people with the ATA-gene would be immune to present-day nanites. Just that the directive prevented them from killing (and yes, more specifically, harming) the Ancients.

Obviously, the HZ virus didn't really harm the Ancients. No one's ever been harmed by seeing shadows.

Bootbinder
August 27th, 2006, 02:31 AM
I liked this episode a lot. It was different from what we are used to and sometimes spooky, and TH:weiranime33: :weir: was great it in. She is a very good actress.

maxbo
August 27th, 2006, 04:50 AM
After Sateda, where the writers successfully meshed a Ronon-focused storyline with meaty character moments for the other characters, I was hoping for the same with The Real World.

Unfortunately, although the first half was good and Elizabeth was excellent, this episode loss steam for me when the team appeared. I had expected to see memorable team bonding moments where each team member rallied around Elizabeth to provide their support. Instead Ronon and Teyla were so generically written that they their roles could have been filled by any SGA character.

Carson and Rodney's scenes together were good, but there was something missing in the other scenes. Carson repeating "we're losing her" and Sheppard repeating variations on "you have to fight" had an unfortunate cheesiness that made me cringe. Also, did anyone who knows Sheppard not expect him to storm the plastic surrounding Elizabeth? After all, this is the man who was willing to take on a Hive ship to save Ronon in Sateda, among his other outrageously heroic acts, so I expected nothing less here.

While I was watching these scenes in disappointment (I fully expected this to replace Before I Sleep as my favorite Elizabeth episode), I kept wondering why they weren't working and I think the main reason is that when the writers took the focus away from Elizabeth, they didn't take the time to flesh out the team dynamics to fill the gaping hole.

Reaceania
August 27th, 2006, 05:04 AM
I never argued that people with the ATA-gene would be immune to present-day nanites. Just that the directive prevented them from killing (and yes, more specifically, harming) the Ancients.

Obviously, the HZ virus didn't really harm the Ancients. No one's ever been harmed by seeing shadows.
I know, the rest of my post after thanking you was just me following my line of thought through again to make sure that the correction didn't change it. :D
Thanks for the clarification once again.

ubiquitous
September 4th, 2006, 04:11 AM
Just popping in to say that I absolutely loved this episode, and is my favourite so far for at least this season. ^.^

Lizlove
September 14th, 2006, 03:43 PM
Just popping in to say that I absolutely loved this episode, and is my favourite so far for at least this season. ^.^
I'm totally agreeing with you there! It's on my fave-ep-list :D
Torri did an amazing job and Liz evoluated even if we didn't really see it at the end, I hope we're going to have some downfall from it though.

Aussie_Fan
September 15th, 2006, 04:05 AM
While I was watching these scenes in disappointment (I fully expected this to replace Before I Sleep as my favorite Elizabeth episode), I kept wondering why they weren't working and I think the main reason is that when the writers took the focus away from Elizabeth, they didn't take the time to flesh out the team dynamics to fill the gaping hole.


I was hoping this episode would also become my favourite Elizabeth episode as well. I've been trying to figure out what it was about this episode that I didn't like and I think what you said is it. When they were focusing on the other guys it was just "arrr she's going to die" and that was it.

I think they also should have shown Elizabeth fighting more before she gave up and started taking the medicine. Would have made it a bit more meaningful. Still, it was a great episode and I'm lovin' season 3 so far!

Platschu
September 22nd, 2006, 02:08 PM
If the Asurans are programmed to attack the Wraith tissue what they did in Weir's case, then why didn't they attacked Teyla in their city? She has Wraith genes! What about McKay and Sheppard? They have Ancient genes, so they are enemies of them too.

PG15
September 22nd, 2006, 04:36 PM
The NANITES attacked the Wraith genes. The Asurans are more than just a collection of nanites, they're intellegent and sentient and all that other stuff that makes them pretty much the same as us.

Dr McKay
September 28th, 2006, 11:10 AM
very dissapointing episode but cool to see Richard Dean Anderson back even if it wasnt for long. 2/10

Matt G
November 22nd, 2006, 05:18 PM
OK...

1. The nearest I've seen to this kind of ep was SG1's Out of Mind but even I knew that the institution wasn't for real and that became blatent during the head morph. So why did they keep us in Weir's reality for so long?

2. My best guess on the nanite's game plan was that they planned to take over Weir's body for their own ends, not take her out of the picture entirely.

3. Interesting to see Jack(or something that looked like him) be a bad guy. Particularly the virtual standoff between 'Jack' and Sheppard.

No where near as good as the last two eps, but still OK.

Orovingwen
November 25th, 2006, 07:01 AM
I had more expectations for rthat episode. They shouldn't have gone that much into the Atlantis side. I'd like to see mroe of the Weir's World.
I mean it's a good episode only I love the imagin/real epiodes of Buffy so much (tehy really duch a great job there) that I'm kinda dissapointed this wasn't such a great one, which is a bit unfair because it is a good epispde.

I'd like to a have a (real) open end here that you doesn't know what is real or not (and don't tell me Shep said so.. pff that's lousy.. go do Joss Wheadon and see hwo you do it right :D) And teh nanite thing? not really believing for me, don't like that plot *hmpf*

TH was really great in this episode! Also loved the mother :)

Short Angel
November 26th, 2006, 11:24 AM
I loved this episode and thought Torri was great in it. I'm a big Shep/Weir fan so I thought it was cute (for lack of a better word) that he kept supporting her.

beale947
November 26th, 2006, 12:50 PM
It was a good episode, dark in places, and a cop out ending with Sheppard appearing in the dream. 6/10. It was a filler episode, and the only good parts were the parts where it was in 'weir's world'

mancslad08
November 26th, 2006, 06:14 PM
very dissapointing episode but cool to see Richard Dean Anderson back even if it wasnt for long. 2/10
I actually thought RDA was BRILLIANT in this episode. Luckily he didn't play the clumsy, sarcastic walking joke that he was in seasons 7-8 of SG-1, he was actually a serious military man with a (funny) sense of humour and cracked subtle jokes 'every so often'. Not, 10 times a minute!

That's the Jack that should have been there in seasons 7 and 8. Excellent.

Shame he wasn't real though lol.

Good episode, plot's been done to death and cheesy moments but it was a nice filler episode that was done well. I found the scene when Weir was telling whoever was behind her door to 'Go Away' pretty freaky and felt SERIOUSLY sad for her. The symbols on the playing cards were cool as well.

I'm still not Weir's biggest fan though, she seemed to revert back to her odd acting in the last scene when she said 'John.... don't.'. Hmmm, but otherwise, thumbs up. 7 or 8/10

jonno
December 1st, 2006, 07:41 PM
Much better than I was expected (for a start I was expecting RDA to play a cameo wheras he actually had a pretty good role which i thought worked nicely - his character was the perfect one for that role, meaning it wasn't a waste of one of RDA's 5 performances as i'd been expected.

Liked that Weir got to do something, and thought TH did well.

Whilst it wasn't the most visually stunning episode, it's also probably one of the cheapest, and every show needs ones like that in the season, and its much better when they're quite interesting and well acted like this one.

Also liked that McKay's plan didn't work.

So yeah - a little slow, one that won't live in the memory (but not all can), and overall a pleasant surprise.

meredithchandler73
December 31st, 2006, 10:20 AM
Well, I'm in the "I loved it" camp. No, it's not a perfect episode, but I loved how Weir-centric it was. (As someone else pointed out - it was more Weir-centric than GUP was McKay-centric.) Torri did a *wonderful* job. She really got to flex her acting muscles. And speaking of muscles, she did put up a bit of a fight with those orderlies, too! (I keep hoping there will be scene someday of Teyla teaching Elizabeth some fighting techniques. For one thing, I like seeing Torri handle action. Her stuff in The Long Goodbye was a lot of fun. Also, I'd just like more Teyla/Weir scenes. But hey, they have had more interaction together than Sam and Vala, so I can't complain too much.)

I knew practically nothing about this episode before I watched it, so RDA's appearance was a *very* nice surprise!

Loved Weir's wardrobe on Earth. Others have mentioned some of the really nice touches - showing the pocketwatch that we've seen Weir with before (and explaining that it was her father's), Weir playing solitaire with the deck of cards (a little callback to Caldwell catching Weir playing solitaire on her computer). I liked that in the previous episode (Sateda) we had a really lovely scene where John tells Teyla how they're the closest thing to family he has, and he'd do anything - even give his life - for any of them. And here was have Sheppard boldly stepping into the isolation unit to try to get through to Weir. (By the way, while I find Shep to be totally loyal to his Atlantis family, I don't get a ship vibe there. I think I prefer to look at SGA as ship-free among the regulars there. But that may just be me.)

Oooh...and I love that Beckett had the brilliant idea about injecting Wraith DNA.

Prior Daniel
December 31st, 2006, 04:26 PM
this was a good episode not the best use of RDA but I'll take it considering he isn't around much anymore:D

obsessed1
January 1st, 2007, 10:36 AM
very dissapointing episode but cool to see Richard Dean Anderson back even if it wasnt for long. 2/10
RDA seemed very wooden in this episode to me. I would have rather have seen some of the Atlantis characters make an appearance in her mind, either as Doctors or wardens or patients etc. It was a great show case ep for Liz but it left everyone else standing around and doing nothing. :D IMO

Linzi
January 1st, 2007, 11:39 AM
RDA seemed very wooden in this episode to me. I would have rather have seen some of the Atlantis characters make an appearance in her mind, either as Doctors or wardens or patients etc. It was a great show case ep for Liz but it left everyone else standing around and doing nothing. :D IMO
Agreed! RDA just said in his interview in Stargate magazine that he didn't really have much idea of what was going on in this episode, and neither did anyone else, or words that hinted at that. I think that shows in his performance. It seemed to me he was thrown in the episode because TPTB needed to stick him in an episode somewhere! This still rates as my least favourite season 3 episode, though Irresposible is yapping at its heels...:(

Luz
January 1st, 2007, 12:00 PM
Agreed! RDA just said in his interview in Stargate magazine that he didn't really have much idea of what was going on in this episode, and neither did anyone else, or words that hinted at that. I think that shows in his performance. It seemed to me he was thrown in the episode because TPTB needed to stick him in an episode somewhere! This still rates as my least favourite season 3 episode, though Irresposible is yapping at its heels...:(

I liked this episode a lot, it had a certain X-File-ish vibe to me, but I agree on RDA, I don't know what we were supposed to make of his appearance. Wonder why tptb didn't use the chance to give him something useful to do on SG1 instead of simply having him parading around modeling the uniform and doing not much else.
You're right, it was like tptb had said "we want to have him on this episode, and that's what we're going to do *meep*" without having planned his role in the plot at all.

Rootortoise
January 1st, 2007, 12:11 PM
Agreed! RDA just said in his interview in Stargate magazine that he didn't really have much idea of what was going on in this episode, and neither did anyone else, or words that hinted at that. I think that shows in his performance. It seemed to me he was thrown in the episode because TPTB needed to stick him in an episode somewhere! This still rates as my least favourite season 3 episode, though Irresposible is yapping at its heels...:(
well it showed RDA was awful in this ep IMO i never understood why elizabeth didnt ask to see JOHN or RODNEY since they were supposidly on atlantis with her. RDA was just there to try and bring in the viewers from sg1 who watched the 200th ep.
torri did some good acting with what she was given, but this ep just didnt do it for me since we got like 35 minutes of weir (mostly in a mental institution) and about 10 minutes of the team (who i want to see) standing around doing nothing, with sheppard just saying "fight it" and other corny stuff he wouldnt normally say.
im sure if i was a weir fan id love this ep, but it was too cliched and didnt keep my interest at all. it was just boring. IMO. As linzi said this also remains my least favourite ep of season 3 (i had the same problem with tao of rodney, too much rodney, but at least the team were in it and had some good scenes with him). Even irresponsible and the game rate higher than this ep and thats saying something, but again at least they had all the team in the eps.

obsessed1
January 3rd, 2007, 01:05 PM
Agreed! RDA just said in his interview in Stargate magazine that he didn't really have much idea of what was going on in this episode, and neither did anyone else, or words that hinted at that. I think that shows in his performance. It seemed to me he was thrown in the episode because TPTB needed to stick him in an episode somewhere! This still rates as my least favourite season 3 episode, though Irresposible is yapping at its heels...:(
Perhaps RDA accidentally wandered in and was like "wha???" LOL!!

Yeah there was ust something inherently wrong with him being in that ep and Ive heard it said that he was wooden because he wasnt the real O'neill, but my counter point would be that he should, then, have had to have been EVEN more convincing. If that makes any sense....LOL!

obsessed1
January 3rd, 2007, 01:08 PM
well it showed RDA was awful in this ep IMO i never understood why elizabeth didnt ask to see JOHN or RODNEY since they were supposidly on atlantis with her. RDA was just there to try and bring in the viewers from sg1 who watched the 200th ep.
torri did some good acting with what she was given, but this ep just didnt do it for me since we got like 35 minutes of weir (mostly in a mental institution) and about 10 minutes of the team (who i want to see) standing around doing nothing, with sheppard just saying "fight it" and other corny stuff he wouldnt normally say.
im sure if i was a weir fan id love this ep, but it was too cliched and didnt keep my interest at all. it was just boring. IMO. As linzi said this also remains my least favourite ep of season 3 (i had the same problem with tao of rodney, too much rodney, but at least the team were in it and had some good scenes with him). Even irresponsible and the game rate higher than this ep and thats saying something, but again at least they had all the team in the eps.
Yeah that was another litle thing that bugged me. You would think that Elizabeth would ask to see John as he is the CO of Atlantis and she would know that he would never mess her around. He at least should have had some mention as as I recall he didnt...........or did he? Am i remembereing wrong? :(

If he had come in and said "Atlantis isnt real" then she would have known that something was seriously wrong and it would have given the ep far more interesting overtones and would have included the cast of Atlantis a liitle more. The ep felt a bit unbalanced because it was heavy on Elizabeth at the start (Which I kind of understand) but the second half them seemed off.

Oh dear, I dont seem to have liked this ep very much :D

xfkirsten
January 3rd, 2007, 01:41 PM
Yeah that was another litle thing that bugged me. You would think that Elizabeth would ask to see John as he is the CO of Atlantis and she would know that he would never mess her around. He at least should have had some mention as as I recall he didnt...........or did he? Am i remembereing wrong? :(

My assumption here is that she figured John would still be in Atlantis, and that's why she asked for Jack instead. :)

Luz
January 3rd, 2007, 01:59 PM
My assumption here is that she figured John would still be in Atlantis, and that's why she asked for Jack instead. :)

I thought the reason she didn't ask was because the replicators were keeping her from remembering the people from Atlantis, so she did remember Atlantis, but the details were a little fuzzy (like she could remember the planet, but not the people).

bluealien
January 3rd, 2007, 03:03 PM
RDA just seemd so out of place and if this is how TPTB smoothly intergrate SG1 characters into Atlantis then I am dreading even more the appearance of AT in season four.

TRW was the most boring ep of the season, of the entire show for me. Really stupid story and 35 minutes of Weir was just too much - she barely holds my interest for 5 minutes. That with the really corney lines and the unbelieveably bad science made this ep a real stinker.

Ruined_puzzle
January 3rd, 2007, 07:17 PM
Did I mention that I LOVED this episode, well doesn't hurt to say it again ;)

leelakin
January 3rd, 2007, 11:05 PM
Did I mention that I LOVED this episode, well doesn't hurt to say it again ;)

*lol*! Well, since I haven't posted in here yet, I guess it's safe to say for me that I also loved it. =)
I really liked the eerie feel of it all and the fact that John helped Elizabeth escape just through sheer will power (oh, of course Carson helped with his little nanite-killing thing, too :beckett: )
Anyway, awesome acting, awesome interaction, awesome effects, great story.

Reaceania
January 4th, 2007, 02:26 AM
RDA just seemd so out of place and if this is how TPTB smoothly intergrate SG1 characters into Atlantis then I am dreading even more the appearance of AT in season four.

TRW was the most boring ep of the season, of the entire show for me. Really stupid story and 35 minutes of Weir was just too much - she barely holds my interest for 5 minutes. That with the really corney lines and the unbelieveably bad science made this ep a real stinker.

Yep I'm guessing you probably didn't like this ep much. ;) Fair enough. I suspect that this is the type of episode that would polarise people.

But there is something I want to ask, the bit where you say "unbelieveably bad science " I was just wondering what about the episode made you come out with such a statement? It's one of those things I have been curious about for some time and really amazes me sometimes when I hear statements like that in Sci-fi forums. Professionally, I'm a scientist (amongst other things) and this episode predominantly covered topics in my field. I have no problem with the science touched on in the ep. This is after all taking place within a speculative fiction genre (after all I'm not examining a thesis or reviewing a submission to a journal .. in which case my criterion would shift somewhat). I think they did a great job with it. If I had to, I could take issue with one minor thing in this ep and it wasn't the "science." I thought it was, as a whole top class. But then I love stories that are a little different to the norm, I love the whole psycho-thriller angle, I don't have a problem with the character of Weir, I thought the acting and direction and music and pacing etc was first class. Personally this episode rocked my socks off!

And just to clarify, I'm not having a go at anyone in the thread (said that before). This is kind of a pet issue and I just wonder why such extreme terms get brandied about in speculative (science in this case) -fiction forums. I often suspect that people just throw the term in because they're seriously _ _ _ _ _ _ off with something and they think it makes their criticism of the show sound weightier somehow. Not always and its just a suspicion. I mean I've read some not-so great submissions to journals and some not so great doctoral theses, but I would never use the term "unbelieveably bad science" to describe any of them. I think people often use that term in sci-fi forums without any real understanding of the scientific method or any substantial knowledge of the topics covered. In many cases the actual laboratory science is a lot cooler than people might believe. As I said, this is a pet issue of mine that I am for the first time taking the time to take issue with. I think the guys that work hard to produce the show deserve better then to have that "criticism" sledged against them in addition to everything else.


Reaca.

p.s., Having said that, if this is does touch on your field, I'd love to sit down and have discussion about it. It would be kind of like a conference dinner, just long-distance. :) We could sit down and have a good discussion of the pro's and con's of what was covered. I'd like that.

Rootortoise
January 4th, 2007, 08:05 AM
*lol*! Well, since I haven't posted in here yet, I guess it's safe to say for me that I also loved it. =)
I really liked the eerie feel of it all and the fact that John helped Elizabeth escape just through sheer will power (oh, of course Carson helped with his little nanite-killing thing, too :beckett: )
Anyway, awesome acting, awesome interaction, awesome effects, great story.

interaction with who? cos it certainly wasnt with any of the other main cast, and thats what this ep severely lacked for me. it was too much weir, whilst the rest of the cast stood around, and johns cheesy lines....oh dear.
episodes like sadeta, common ground and mckay and mrs miller, have all worked well for ronon, shep and mckay respectively because although they were character episodes they had the team playing an active role in them, i not only like seeing the character in a certain situation, but how the team react and play parts in the episodes too. one of my fav bits in sateda for instance isnt anything to do with ronon, its the scene on the daedalus with shep and teyla, because its such a good character moment.
Yes torri acted well in this ep, but if youre not a huge torri fan then what was in the ep for the rest of us, who want to see all the other characters?
adding in RDA was also just a huge mistake, i like to keep sg1 out of sga, and his performance was so awful i had to wonder why the heck they put him in that episode in the first place.
i believe like obsessed1 said, that if the team had played into her delusions (shep as a doctor, mckay as a patient, ronon as an orderly etc) then it wouldve worked better, because then it wouldve made the ep into more of a team episode rather than it being all about weir and give those of us who arent big weir fans something to watch. neven if the team werent in her delusions then they couldve worked out some way to give the team a more active role in the ep.
and the whole thing about shep not being infected by the nanites because "they were too busy" was ridiculous, i thought these nanites were supposed to be smart and yet they give up the opportunity to infect/take over another body because theyre busy.....i dont think so.
this episode was just a huge disappointment, i didnt like it at all.

Linzi
January 4th, 2007, 08:16 AM
interaction with who? cos it certainly wasnt with any of the other main cast, and thats what this ep severely lacked for me. it was too much weir, whilst the rest of the cast stood around, and johns cheesy lines....oh dear.
episodes like sadeta, common ground and mckay and mrs miller, have all worked well for ronon, shep and mckay respectively because although they were character episodes they had the team playing an active role in them, i not only like seeing the character in a certain situation, but how the team react and play parts in the episodes too. one of my fav bits in sateda for instance isnt anything to do with ronon, its the scene on the daedalus with shep and teyla, because its such a good character moment.
Yes torri acted well in this ep, but if youre not a huge torri fan then what was in the ep for the rest of us, who want to see all the other characters?
adding in RDA was also just a huge mistake, i like to keep sg1 out of sga, and his performance was so awful i had to wonder why the heck they put him in that episode in the first place.
i believe like obsessed1 said, that if the team had played into her delusions (shep as a doctor, mckay as a patient, ronon as an orderly etc) then it wouldve worked better, because then it wouldve made the ep into more of a team episode rather than it being all about weir and give those of us who arent big weir fans something to watch. neven if the team werent in her delusions then they couldve worked out some way to give the team a more active role in the ep.
and the whole thing about shep not being infected by the nanites because "they were too busy" was ridiculous, i thought these nanites were supposed to be smart and yet they give up the opportunity to infect/take over another body because theyre busy.....i dont think so.
this episode was just a huge disappointment, i didnt like it at all.
I agree. The nanite bit concerning Sheppard not being infected was ridiculous!
What a great idea having the team playing various characters in Weir's illusionary world though. That would've been a wonderful and novel approach. Instead I saw an incredibly ubiquitous plot that had no suspense and was so predictible that it was embarrassing. RDA being included just didn't make sense on any level, and it really showed.
This episode went against everything the series is supposed to be heralding - the bond of the team. It was a showcase for a single character that lacked both innovation and insight, IMO.

Southern Red
January 4th, 2007, 08:22 AM
Yes indeed, Torri's acting was awesome. And since it was an episode about her, and about time I say, naturally we see more of her than the rest of the team. Having the others appear in her dream world, IMHO, would have spoiled the illusion and given it too much of a Wizard of Oz feel. Imagine her waking up in the infirmary and saying, "And you were there and you were there." LOL. Just no. The point was that she didn't have any of the familiar people around who would give her an anchor to reality. Jack was connected to her life before Atlantis, so he was the natural choice to try to make her believe that everything that had happened in Atlantis was a lie.

John is the person that she works closest with in Atlantis, so he was a natural choice to be the one who could reach her. The scenes with the team trying desperately to save her, Rodney and Carson using science, and the others just being there, were amazing emotional moments that continue with the family theme of S3. I don't think John's lines were cheesy at all. I think his heartfelt pleas for her to do her part to come out of it were a rare insight into just how emotional he can be. And the fact that he risked his own life to try to save her adds to his growing list of moments when he is willing to do anything to save any one of the team. He may have told Teyla in Sateda that he has trouble with feelings and didn't exactly disagree with her when she said he lacks social skills, but his outpouring of emotions when by Elizabeth's bedside showed that he can be quite eloquent indeed. Just my opinion. Of course I understand that those who support a different ship may see it a completely different way.

Rootortoise
January 4th, 2007, 09:02 AM
John is the person that she works closest with in Atlantis, so he was a natural choice to be the one who could reach her. The scenes with the team trying desperately to save her, Rodney and Carson using science, and the others just being there, were amazing emotional moments that continue with the family theme of S3. I don't think John's lines were cheesy at all. I think his heartfelt pleas for her to do her part to come out of it were a rare insight into just how emotional he can be. And the fact that he risked his own life to try to save her adds to his growing list of moments when he is willing to do anything to save any one of the team. He may have told Teyla in Sateda that he has trouble with feelings and didn't exactly disagree with her when she said he lacks social skills, but his outpouring of emotions when by Elizabeth's bedside showed that he can be quite eloquent indeed. Just my opinion. Of course I understand that those who support a different ship may see it a completely different way.

again, the problem, teyla and ronon were just there. they didnt actually do anything. and john being the one reaching her was just silly, it was completely out of character IMO that he wouldve said any of that stuff especially since we had sateda aired before this where he said he had problems expressing emotion to people. all the cheesy cliched "you've gotta fight this" stuff was just awful, it wasnt shep IMO.
the use of john was to make the sparky shippers happy i think, to be honest it wouldve been nice seeing teyla in that role, shes the one whos supposed to be spiritual after all and her in johns role wouldve made more sense, otherwise teyla and ronon might as well not have been in the episode at all.

i almost wish shep hadnt been in this ep at all tbh, because then at least i wouldve known not to bother watching it. If it was just going to be all about weir, and believe me i do like weir, and if this ep had been more balanced team wise maybe i wouldve enjoyed it more, but it was just too focused on her (in a mental institute for most of it, talking) and so it just did not keep me interested. like i say, i like character episodes with a team feel not just WEIR and 10 minutes of the team standing around.
another thing was, i didnt even get the sense that the team really cared that weir was going to die, only shep (but again way OTT for him), in sateda we saw the team worrying for ronon, same in common ground with shep, we saw the team and weir, even ladon worried over shep'c capture, in this episode i just didnt get that same sense of urgency or sadness that weir was about to die. i didnt get that "team family feeling" that has been portrayed in sateda, CG, mm and m because the team didnt actually do anything in the episode anyway. IMO of course.

Reaceania
January 5th, 2007, 05:45 AM
My thoughts on some of the more recent issues raised in the thread.

Regarding, O’Neill: I quite liked him in there. Yes, I also thought there was something about his behavior that wasn’t 100% “our O’Neill”, but then I credited that to RDA’s acting. Afterall, he wasn’t playing O’Neill. He was playing a nanite induced vision/version of O’Neill in Weir’s consciousness. So I liked him in there. While I prefer seeing him as “our O’Neill”, I was more than fine with him in this one.

As for why Weir requested O’Neill rather than, say Sheppard or McKay. I assumed it stemmed from the stage Weir was at. At that part of the episode, Atlantis was still very real to her. I would have assumed that she thought that Sheppard et al would still be there. On Atlantis. She knew something hinkey was going on, but from her perspective what was wrong was in the immediate vicinity around her, in the “hospital”. Jack would’ve represented not only a very high ranking member of the military who was close at hand, but someone whom she respected and was quite familiar. Someone in the stargate program that could come in reassure her and get her out of there. It wasn’t until much later that she started to doubt and give up. At that point there probably wouldn’t be much of a reason to ask for Sheppard or Rodney because she would’ve been questioning her “memories” and their respective friendships :(

If I was forced to pick one thing about the ep that I would have preferred done a little differently (something I’m sure we could all do with everything) that would be the use of Beckett, Teyla and Ronon in the icu. It felt maybe a little rushed to me … or something. I had been expecting (expectations = the bad thing about knowing about an ep before it airs ;)) that there may have been scenes with them taking turns in sitting a vigil at her bedside or something in that vein. But that was before I knew the problem was going to be the nanites and hence she would obviously need to be in quarantine of some fashion. Their concern was definitely there when they were all standing around the tent, and their relief (esp in Teyla) was evident when Weir first regained consciousness. So we still got some of that but I wanted something a little more substantial … or something. I’m demanding like that ;) But that’s not enough to detract from the episode for me. As I said before, you can always find something that needs "fixing" in your opinion if you look hard enough

To me Sheppard was Sheppard, and I didn’t think his actions in the icu were out of character. Rather I thought them very much in character. Sheppard is a guy that has issues with revealing his feelings. We have often seen he gets uncomfortable with it, he’s said so himself. When he first tried to “talk” to Elizabeth, the situation wasn’t urgent enough to do so in front of everyone else. He pointedly waited until McKay and Beckett were out of earshot before trying to encourage and support Weir. He wasn’t comfortable and secure in having anyone really see him try to reveal a more emotional (and I mean emotional for John) side at that point. It wasn’t until things were urgent/dire and even Beckett was giving up that Sheppard risked not only his own life, but also revealing to other people how much he did care. I do think at this point in the show that it would be hard for someone to deny that Weir and Sheppard share a bond, regardless of how you view that bond (friendship, shared leadership, ship or potential ship etc). Indeed, even he said in Sateda that he would risk his life for any of them.
. Some of Sheppard’s lines might sound cheesy to some, but I’m pretty sure that I would’ve been saying similar things under the circumstances and I know I wouldn’t care how they sounded as long as they worked. Which they did in his case. Personally I’d say and do whatever it would take to save someone that I cared that much about (actually in my case that stretches to people I don’t even know). Also, when you have someone who isn’t good at expressing their feelings and put them in a situation where they finally need to (note just because someone isn’t good at it doesn’t mean they wont try it at some point) they don’t always do a good job of it. They can stumble over their words, what they say can sound weird (or cheesy), they can get frustrated it didn’t come out right. They can turn around and try again because it didn’t come out right. So, I liked Johns lines.

The episode still rocks my socks off. ;) :) So two thumbs up to the cast and crew and production staff from me.

Nearly forget, since as I mentioned in my previous post that this is a pet issue with me, a quick question for the thread, and in particular those that thought the fact that John didn’t catch the virus after coming in contact with Weir “was ridiculous” … as opposed, of course, to people earlier in the thread who thought it was ridiculous that we were meant to be believe there was a chance he would be infected and hence that his actions were heroic .. (the guys on this show can’t win can they ;) )
Immunology 101: Do you automatically become infected with a virus after coming in contact with someone that has it? :)

Linzi
January 5th, 2007, 08:49 AM
My thoughts on some of the more recent issues raised in the thread.

Regarding, O’Neill: I quite liked him in there. Yes, I also thought there was something about his behavior that wasn’t 100% “our O’Neill”, but then I credited that to RDA’s acting. Afterall, he wasn’t playing O’Neill. He was playing a nanite induced vision/version of O’Neill in Weir’s consciousness. So I liked him in there. While I prefer seeing him as “our O’Neill”, I was more than fine with him in this one.

As for why Weir requested O’Neill rather than, say Sheppard or McKay. I assumed it stemmed from the stage Weir was at. At that part of the episode, Atlantis was still very real to her. I would have assumed that she thought that Sheppard et al would still be there. On Atlantis. She knew something hinkey was going on, but from her perspective what was wrong was in the immediate vicinity around her, in the “hospital”. Jack would’ve represented not only a very high ranking member of the military who was close at hand, but someone whom she respected and was quite familiar. Someone in the stargate program that could come in reassure her and get her out of there. It wasn’t until much later that she started to doubt and give up. At that point there probably wouldn’t be much of a reason to ask for Sheppard or Rodney because she would’ve been questioning her “memories” and their respective friendships :(

If I was forced to pick one thing about the ep that I would have preferred done a little differently (something I’m sure we could all do with everything) that would be the use of Beckett, Teyla and Ronon in the icu. It felt maybe a little rushed to me … or something. I had been expecting (expectations = the bad thing about knowing about an ep before it airs ;)) that there may have been scenes with them taking turns in sitting a vigil at her bedside or something in that vein. But that was before I knew the problem was going to be the nanites and hence she would obviously need to be in quarantine of some fashion. Their concern was definitely there when they were all standing around the tent, and their relief (esp in Teyla) was evident when Weir first regained consciousness. So we still got some of that but I wanted something a little more substantial … or something. I’m demanding like that ;) But that’s not enough to detract from the episode for me. As I said before, you can always find something that needs "fixing" in your opinion if you look hard enough

To me Sheppard was Sheppard, and I didn’t think his actions in the icu were out of character. Rather I thought them very much in character. Sheppard is a guy that has issues with revealing his feelings. We have often seen he gets uncomfortable with it, he’s said so himself. When he first tried to “talk” to Elizabeth, the situation wasn’t urgent enough to do so in front of everyone else. He pointedly waited until McKay and Beckett were out of earshot before trying to encourage and support Weir. He wasn’t comfortable and secure in having anyone really see him try to reveal a more emotional (and I mean emotional for John) side at that point. It wasn’t until things were urgent/dire and even Beckett was giving up that Sheppard risked not only his own life, but also revealing to other people how much he did care. I do think at this point in the show that it would be hard for someone to deny that Weir and Sheppard share a bond, regardless of how you view that bond (friendship, shared leadership, ship or potential ship etc). Indeed, even he said in Sateda that he would risk his life for any of them.
. Some of Sheppard’s lines might sound cheesy to some, but I’m pretty sure that I would’ve been saying similar things under the circumstances and I know I wouldn’t care how they sounded as long as they worked. Which they did in his case. Personally I’d say and do whatever it would take to save someone that I cared that much about (actually in my case that stretches to people I don’t even know). Also, when you have someone who isn’t good at expressing their feelings and put them in a situation where they finally need to (note just because someone isn’t good at it doesn’t mean they wont try it at some point) they don’t always do a good job of it. They can stumble over their words, what they say can sound weird (or cheesy), they can get frustrated it didn’t come out right. They can turn around and try again because it didn’t come out right. So, I liked Johns lines.

The episode still rocks my socks off. ;) :) So two thumbs up to the cast and crew and production staff from me.

Nearly forget, since as I mentioned in my previous post that this is a pet issue with me, a quick question for the thread, and in particular those that thought the fact that John didn’t catch the virus after coming in contact with Weir “was ridiculous” … as opposed, of course, to people earlier in the thread who thought it was ridiculous that we were meant to be believe there was a chance he would be infected and hence that his actions were heroic .. (the guys on this show can’t win can they ;) )
Immunology 101: Do you automatically become infected with a virus after coming in contact with someone that has it? :)
But it wasn't a virus in the usual sense, it was nanites, special little computers specifically designed to infect others. So you can't really compare them to an organic virus in this instance.
The episode just wasn't one of the best, IMO. It didn't hold my interest and seemed very un-Atlantis like, (if that's a word!!). As I've said before, I wouldn't care who the showcased character was, the episode still would've been a cliché, and that's a shame in my eyes. There was no suspense for me, because I knew all along it was a illusionary state, and Elizabeth running through the 'gate and beating the nanites was so cheesey I groaned. It was a lazily written episode that could've been so much better IMO.

bluealien
January 5th, 2007, 09:10 AM
Sheppard cares about everyone on Atlantis - it is his job to protect them. He would risk his life to save ANY ONE of them. He would have done the same no matter who was in the bed, the same way he risked his life to save Ronan. I didnt see any more emotion being displayed then when he went up against Caldwell in Sateda to go and save a member of his team/family.

This is all he was doing in TRW - but it was cheesy and out of character. Carson was made to look usless and everyone else just stood around and all Sheppard has to do it to tell her to fight it - and of course the nanites conveniently didn't bother to infect Shep. How fortunate. I can't see Sheppard being this reckless - yes he will fight for anyone he cares for but to just storm into the isolation unit with no idea of the consequenses is not in character for the military head of Atlantis. So there is nothing at all about this ep that I liked - Weir bored me to tears and the team and Carson were made to look useless - the writers huge plan of attack was to tell Weir to fight it - if the nanites could be defeated so easily why didnt McKay come up with a better plan to reprogamme them in progeny.

maxbo
January 5th, 2007, 10:47 AM
Agreed! RDA just said in his interview in Stargate magazine that he didn't really have much idea of what was going on in this episode, and neither did anyone else, or words that hinted at that. I think that shows in his performance. It seemed to me he was thrown in the episode because TPTB needed to stick him in an episode somewhere! This still rates as my least favourite season 3 episode, though Irresposible is yapping at its heels...:(

This explains so much. I was really looking forward to RDA in this episode and was very disappointed - RDA just didn't fit and it showed. I think that trying to showcase RDA is what brought down this episode because IMO, TPTB spent so much time trying to include RDA that they shortchanged the SGA characters.

I agree with many of the points raised about why this episode didn't work but I think a point that sums it up more than anything is the one that Rootortoise raised - I didn't get the feeling that the team really cared that Elizabeth was dying. When I compare the bedside vigil for Elizabeth to what we saw in a later episode for another character - the difference is striking.

In TRW, except far a few moments, those scenes seemed to be populated by pod people. I didn't get a Team feeling from this episode so although I enjoyed the Elizabeth/faux-Jack heavy first half more than some viewers, I didn't enjoy it enough to want to watch this episode again. All in all, TRW was a very disappointing episode for me.

Other episodes, including Sateda, Common Ground, McKay and Mrs. Miller, Echoes and Tao of Rodney handled showing the Team's care and concern for each other much better. Those episodes also introduced, or expanded on, elements that I would love to see followed-up. So far, I find the Asurans incredibly dull and, it doesn't help that they are essentially SG-1 rip-offs.

Luz
January 5th, 2007, 01:49 PM
I really liked the eerie feel of it all and the fact that John helped Elizabeth escape just through sheer will power (oh, of course Carson helped with his little nanite-killing thing, too :beckett: )
Anyway, awesome acting, awesome interaction, awesome effects, great story.
(Emphasis mine) I loved that eerie vibe, when she saw Sheppard on her bedroom I had a flashback to an X-Files episode (Duane Barry) when a guy who's going to get abducted sees the aliens' shadows, and it was really creepy, and when she saw him through the plastic curtain I felt it again.
That's how I felt when I was watching this episode, all the while it was like watching a good old X-Files episode.
Only peeve was too much O'neill, could have done without him, meh!.
And Torri's acting was awesome indeed. :P

Ruined_puzzle
January 5th, 2007, 02:13 PM
and john being the one reaching her was just silly, it was completely out of character IMO that he wouldve said any of that stuff especially since we had sateda aired before this where he said he had problems expressing emotion to people. all the cheesy cliched "you've gotta fight this" stuff was just awful, it wasnt shep IMO.


Well she was unconscious so I would assume it would be easier for him to express his feelings. To tell her to fight and all that.



I didn't get the feeling that the team really cared that Elizabeth was dying. When I compare the bedside vigil for Elizabeth to what we saw in a later episode for another character - the difference is striking.



This episode reminds me of Echoes when Ronon was beside Teyla while she was in the infirmary dying, nice parallel.

kimyroo
January 5th, 2007, 02:39 PM
I don't think John was out of character. I can see him doing that if it was Teyla there. *Ducks from all the Sparky shippers!* And although i think Teyla and Ronan looked as though they were "just there," i think the scenes with Rodney and Carson trying to save Elizabeth showed the connection they have with each other.


When I compare the bedside vigil for Elizabeth to what we saw in a later episode for another character - the difference is striking.

I don't think i have seen this other episode... but was the other person in confinement? Because it would be quite hard to keep a bedside vigil if there is a huge plastic sheet around the bed!! :lol:

Torri's acting was excellent, i thought she did fantastic! :weir: :weiranime17:

maxbo
January 5th, 2007, 05:48 PM
Well she was unconscious so I would assume it would be easier for him to express his feelings. To tell her to fight and all that.

Those you-have-to-fight scenes could have been done so much better. As it was, there was a cheesiness about them that made them uncomfortable to watch. On the other hand, I thought Sheppard storming the plastic to help Elizabeth was in character - although I thought it strained credulity that the nanites didn't attack him. It appeared that the writers wanted Sheppard to have a dramatic moment, however, they didn't want to deal with the possible consequences so they glossed over them.


This episode reminds me of Echoes when Ronon was beside Teyla while she was in the infirmary dying, nice parallel.

Those scenes were wonderful, but I was thinking about Tao of Rodneywhen the Team was watching over Rodney. That scene was much better done than similar scenes in TRW. In ToR I could see that the Team cared about Rodney and no one was out of character.


I don't think John was out of character. I can see him doing that if it was Teyla there. *Ducks from all the Sparky shippers!* And although i think Teyla and Ronan looked as though they were "just there," i think the scenes with Rodney and Carson trying to save Elizabeth showed the connection they have with each other.

I don't think i have seen this other episode... but was the other person in confinement? Because it would be quite hard to keep a bedside vigil if there is a huge plastic sheet around the bed!! :lol:

Torri's acting was excellent, i thought she did fantastic! :weir: :weiranime17:

As I mentioned above, John's you-have-to-fight scenes were too cheesy for me and felt off. And, although I agree that Carson was in character, Rodney was also off. At times, he seemed to to be too into finding a solution for the thrill of finding a solution and not because he was trying to save Elizabeth.

And, to just have Ronon and Teyla standing around was unfortunate because I was looking forward to seeing how they would react to Elizabeth's situation. I wish the writers would have taken the novel approach of exploring their reactions rather than relying on out-of-character cheese.

The episode was Tao of Rodney and nope no plastic :D. However, a little plastic wouldn't have stopped our crew from showing their love, concern and support for one of their own, provided they were written well, that is.

I agree that Torri did a great job in TRW. Too bad I can't say the same about the writers.

Reaceania
January 5th, 2007, 07:24 PM
But it wasn't a virus in the usual sense, it was nanites, special little computers specifically designed to infect others. So you can't really compare them to an organic virus in this instance.


Cool! but you kind of jumped ahead to the next step.

So we can assume the answer to my question was a no. It’s not an automatic thing. It depends on many factors including (amongst others) the type and strain of virus and route of transmission etc. Even for someone coming in contact with fresh blood product containing HIV there’s always the chance they wont become infected with HIV. So we’re okay with that step right. So in the real world if we were talking about a virus it would more than a little silly to say that it was ridiculous that someone didn’t become infected with it after being exposed to it. Okay we can move on to the next step.

Yep these were nanites. Those that had replicated with Weir’s body had become essentially organic, hence those replicated inside Weir were immune to then EMP. Isn’t it possible to say that these “nanites” and their line (descendants if you will) were programmed by Niam to infect and control Weir. Their purpose then is to control her, and not another person. For which according to events we saw in the episode we can conclude it takes a sufficient number to control her. Why would they then go to Sheppard ? Moreover, we can assume (from Becketts dialogue) for the time being, that it takes a critical mass of “nanites” to infect someone and sustain themselves. A person’s immune system can readily deal with the nanites on initial infection but when they pass a sufficient number/threshold, the nanites are able to take some control of the central nervous system and in turn, turn off the immune response to their presence. So ignoring other factors (e.g., as in a possible program) a sufficient number of them would have to desert their current task in Weir to go to Sheppard. In doing so, by reducing their numbers in Weir, they’d risk losing control of her and they’d risk not being in control of anyone, and they’d cease to be. Also, remember that their numbers had just been seriously reduced by the EMP.

And regardless of that, why it assumed that the “nanites” can be transmitted by simple physical contact? Yes, Niam infected Weir but how do you know that an Assuran doesn’t have (or can’t form) little microscopic injectors in his hands that injected the nanites into the blood-stream or muscle? You cannot say that John would automatically become infected with the nanites by gasping tightly hold of Weir’s hand and forearm. He was at risk yes, risk because of all the unknowns, but that doesn’t translate into, “oh of course he would be automatically infected.”


Dr Reaca.

Linzi
January 6th, 2007, 12:41 AM
Cool! but you kind of jumped ahead to the next step.

So we can assume the answer to my question was a no. It’s not an automatic thing. It depends on many factors including (amongst others) the type and strain of virus and route of transmission etc. Even for someone coming in contact with fresh blood product containing HIV there’s always the chance they wont become infected with HIV. So we’re okay with that step right. So in the real world if we were talking about a virus it would more than a little silly to say that it was ridiculous that someone didn’t become infected with it after being exposed to it. Okay we can move on to the next step.

Yep these were nanites. Those that had replicated with Weir’s body had become essentially organic, hence those replicated inside Weir were immune to then EMP. Isn’t it possible to say that these “nanites” and their line (descendants if you will) were programmed by Niam to infect and control Weir. Their purpose then is to control her, and not another person. For which according to events we saw in the episode we can conclude it takes a sufficient number to control her. Why would they then go to Sheppard ? Moreover, we can assume (from Becketts dialogue) for the time being, that it takes a critical mass of “nanites” to infect someone and sustain themselves. A person’s immune system can readily deal with the nanites on initial infection but when they pass a sufficient number/threshold, the nanites are able to take some control of the central nervous system and in turn, turn off the immune response to their presence. So ignoring other factors (e.g., as in a possible program) a sufficient number of them would have to desert their current task in Weir to go to Sheppard. In doing so, by reducing their numbers in Weir, they’d risk losing control of her and they’d risk not being in control of anyone, and they’d cease to be. Also, remember that their numbers had just been seriously reduced by the EMP.

And regardless of that, why it assumed that the “nanites” can be transmitted by simple physical contact? Yes, Niam infected Weir but how do you know that an Assuran doesn’t have (or can’t form) little microscopic injectors in his hands that injected the nanites into the blood-stream or muscle? You cannot say that John would automatically become infected with the nanites by gasping tightly hold of Weir’s hand and forearm. He was at risk yes, risk because of all the unknowns, but that doesn’t translate into, “oh of course he would be automatically infected.”


Dr Reaca.
It's interesting you got the idea the nanites were perhaps forced upon Weir to control her. My take on that was that Niam infected her just to kill her. I don't remember seeing anything on screen that made me think the idea was to take control of her in any way. I got the impression is was a vengeance thing on Niam's part. I also believe that because the nanites are easily transmitted that the Asurans may have wanted to infect as many of the Atlantis team as possible, just to try and incapacitate them.
The problem with comparing the nanites here to organic viruses, is that we have no basis for comaparison in real life, so any assumptions we make are just that. Unless there were nanites such as these advanced fictional creations, created by a technologically superior race for us to study, we can only hypothesise on how they would infect someone and how likely transmission from one person to another would be. Judging from Beckett's care, and bearing in mind that these nanites were far more sophisticated than the ones seen in Hot Zone, and look how easily transmitted those were, I believe the chances of Sheppard being infected would have been significant.
I also believe that because the nanites were so sophisticated that they mutated when in Weir in order to survive and kill her. I would think that anything as advanced as that would easily be able to quickly adapt to infect another person, should the opportunity arise. But obviously this is all speculation based on science fiction we saw on screen.
I still maintain that it was all a little too convenient that Sheppard didn't become infected, and that it made the plot seem rather more far-fetched than usual.
Bottom line for me, the science was dubious, the plot a cliché, and it just didn't hold my interest. Though most ideas aren't original, this made no effort to have a unique twist, and I just groaned at some of the cheesy lines. It just wasn't the quality of writing I'm used to seeing Carl Binder produce. I have no problem with any of the performances in TRW, except for RDA's; his role here, and the execution of it, was poor, IMO, and I say that as a huge RDA fan.

kimyroo
January 6th, 2007, 04:25 AM
As I mentioned above, John's you-have-to-fight scenes were too cheesy for me and felt off. And, although I agree that Carson was in character, Rodney was also off. At times, he seemed to to be too into finding a solution for the thrill of finding a solution and not because he was trying to save Elizabeth.

And, to just have Ronon and Teyla standing around was unfortunate because I was looking forward to seeing how they would react to Elizabeth's situation. I wish the writers would have taken the novel approach of exploring their reactions rather than relying on out-of-character cheese.

The episode was Tao of Rodney and nope no plastic :D. However, a little plastic wouldn't have stopped our crew from showing their love, concern and support for one of their own, provided they were written well, that is.

I agree that Torri did a great job in TRW. Too bad I can't say the same about the writers.

I do agree with you, especially about Ronan and Teyla. I havn't seen Tao of Rodney yet! :lol: Stupid uni... :sheppard33: :teyla30: so i can't really comment.

obsessed1
January 6th, 2007, 02:40 PM
My assumption here is that she figured John would still be in Atlantis, and that's why she asked for Jack instead. :)
well they were telling her it didnt exist.....but I would have thought she would want to see if Sheppard was contactable. If he was, i.e. on earth, it would validate the 'atlantis isnt real' theory :D

xfkirsten
January 6th, 2007, 10:06 PM
It's interesting you got the idea the nanites were perhaps forced upon Weir to control her. My take on that was that Niam infected her just to kill her. I don't remember seeing anything on screen that made me think the idea was to take control of her in any way. I got the impression is was a vengeance thing on Niam's part. I also believe that because the nanites are easily transmitted that the Asurans may have wanted to infect as many of the Atlantis team as possible, just to try and incapacitate them.
The problem with comparing the nanites here to organic viruses, is that we have no basis for comaparison in real life, so any assumptions we make are just that. Unless there were nanites such as these advanced fictional creations, created by a technologically superior race for us to study, we can only hypothesise on how they would infect someone and how likely transmission from one person to another would be. Judging from Beckett's care, and bearing in mind that these nanites were far more sophisticated than the ones seen in Hot Zone, and look how easily transmitted those were, I believe the chances of Sheppard being infected would have been significant.
I also believe that because the nanites were so sophisticated that they mutated when in Weir in order to survive and kill her. I would think that anything as advanced as that would easily be able to quickly adapt to infect another person, should the opportunity arise. But obviously this is all speculation based on science fiction we saw on screen.
I still maintain that it was all a little too convenient that Sheppard didn't become infected, and that it made the plot seem rather more far-fetched than usual.
Bottom line for me, the science was dubious, the plot a cliché, and it just didn't hold my interest. Though most ideas aren't original, this made no effort to have a unique twist, and I just groaned at some of the cheesy lines. It just wasn't the quality of writing I'm used to seeing Carl Binder produce. I have no problem with any of the performances in TRW, except for RDA's; his role here, and the execution of it, was poor, IMO, and I say that as a huge RDA fan.

I don't think it actually had anything to do with either control or revenge - only survival.


BECKETT: I don’t think their intention’s to kill her. If that were the case, they could have easily done it already. I don’t think there’s enough of ‘em to survive on their own. They need Elizabeth’s body as raw material.
McKAY: So they’re attempting to assimilate her – to transform her into one of them?
BECKETT: Until they can reach sufficient numbers to form a viable independent entity, I would say so, yes.
TEYLA: This is how they replicate?
BECKETT: I doubt it’s their normal way. It may well be a last-ditch attempt to survive.

With that in mind, I do agree that it doesn't make sense that they wouldn't go after John, considering that he'd be another survival tool. The only explanation I could offer would be that without some centralized direction of the nanites (eg Niam or the collective telling them where to go) they weren't organized enough to take over John that quickly. I'll admit it's a pretty shaky plot device, but I enjoyed the episode enough overall to let that one go.


well they were telling her it didnt exist.....but I would have thought she would want to see if Sheppard was contactable. If he was, i.e. on earth, it would validate the 'atlantis isnt real' theory :D

Ah, I see what you're saying here. It just seems a bit too indirect to do it that way, I think. I would be much easier to just go right to Jack and get a straight yes or no. She might have wanted to try and contact Sheppard after that, but at that point they'd be straying too far from the story for the allotted 43 minutes.

Linzi
January 7th, 2007, 03:01 AM
I don't think it actually had anything to do with either control or revenge - only survival.



With that in mind, I do agree that it doesn't make sense that they wouldn't go after John, considering that he'd be another survival tool. The only explanation I could offer would be that without some centralized direction of the nanites (eg Niam or the collective telling them where to go) they weren't organized enough to take over John that quickly. I'll admit it's a pretty shaky plot device, but I enjoyed the episode enough overall to let that one go.





Yes, I must admit, it did occur to me that the nanites were centralised and not in the extremities of Elizabeth's body, so Sheppard touching her arm might not have been infected because none were there. It was a shaky plot device, I agree. I also understand why some fans could let that go too. It is about enjoying your favourite character having the central role, enjoying that performance, and not a lot else can detract from that, which is quite right, IMO. :) I personally find it hard to let plot problems go, even if my favourite character features heavily in the episode, (*cough, Irresponsible, cough*:lol:) That's just me though.

Reaceania
January 7th, 2007, 07:02 AM
It's interesting you got the idea the nanites were perhaps forced upon Weir to control her. My take on that was that Niam infected her just to kill her. I don't remember seeing anything on screen that made me think the idea was to take control of her in any way. I got the impression is was a vengeance thing on Niam's part. I also believe that because the nanites are easily transmitted that the Asurans may have wanted to infect as many of the Atlantis team as possible, just to try and incapacitate them.
The problem with comparing the nanites here to organic viruses, is that we have no basis for comaparison in real life, so any assumptions we make are just that. Unless there were nanites such as these advanced fictional creations, created by a technologically superior race for us to study, we can only hypothesise on how they would infect someone and how likely transmission from one person to another would be. Judging from Beckett's care, and bearing in mind that these nanites were far more sophisticated than the ones seen in Hot Zone, and look how easily transmitted those were, I believe the chances of Sheppard being infected would have been significant.
I also believe that because the nanites were so sophisticated that they mutated when in Weir in order to survive and kill her. I would think that anything as advanced as that would easily be able to quickly adapt to infect another person, should the opportunity arise. But obviously this is all speculation based on science fiction we saw on screen.
I still maintain that it was all a little too convenient that Sheppard didn't become infected, and that it made the plot seem rather more far-fetched than usual.
Bottom line for me, the science was dubious, the plot a cliché, and it just didn't hold my interest. Though most ideas aren't original, this made no effort to have a unique twist, and I just groaned at some of the cheesy lines. It just wasn't the quality of writing I'm used to seeing Carl Binder produce. I have no problem with any of the performances in TRW, except for RDA's; his role here, and the execution of it, was poor, IMO, and I say that as a huge RDA fan.
Re: Beckett's care and the use of quarantine. Passed experience for the Atlantis expedition showed that at least one “strain” (or model) of nanites was highly contagious. It should then be SOP (standard operating procedure) that upon any subsequent detection of nanites, that BSL4/Level P4 quarantine be initiated. It’s a precaution. It doesn’t mean that the agent is highly virulent, it’s just very prudent measure.
I get what you mean by having the Assurans potentially try to infect as many as possible but it was my take was that they weren't the same type of nanites here as the ones used in Hot Zone, since those nanites (or the ones around 10000 years ago) evolved into the Assurans. The one in Weir had a longer incubation period, different symptoms and apparently different route of transmission. At least that's what I got from it.

nanites as a virus metaphor Yes and no (which is the point I did such a bad job getting at the last post). At some level they have to be subject to the same biological laws that a virus or other pathogen is. They have to be able to interact with cells in some way (for example in the case of the nanites by modulating the flow of calcium or sodium into a neuron or by binding to receptors etc or some such) otherwise they are simply foreign objects floating around in her blood. The chances are they also going to be subject to similar restrictions to infection i.e., if what you are touching doesn’t contain the infectious agent you have a low risk of contracting it; can it break through skin etc. In many respects a virus is just a little machine. But then of course as nanites, they could also be subject to extra rules … such as a program that maybe customed made by their initial creator etc. etc. My point I was so badly getting at is that at some point they are going to be constrained by at least some similar rules as those that pathogens are subject to. Thinking about a virus or other pathogen is a good place to start in order to understand the nanites (sorry I'm technically on holidays at the moment, though actually at work I'm free from having to explain anything to anyone outside of my colleagues so that part of my brain is still on leave ;))

John again. Why didn’t he get infected Also just to get this bit out of the way, at the time when John rushed into quarantine their funky scan showed that the nanites were concentrated around her head and neck, away from her arms where John came in contact with her. This significantly reduces his risk of infection, just as it does with a virus. It doesn’t mean he wouldn’t get infected it means there’s a lower risk. If you couple that with the supposition that, a) it takes a critical number of nanites to infect a host, and b) by dividing their already reduced number in Weir to infect John they would reduce their control over Weir and hence reduce the chances of their survival, it makes it extremely unlikely that they would have infected him even if there were some stray nanites in her arms that couldn’t be seen on the scanner. On top of that we don’t know if simple physical contact is sufficient for infection (i.e., Niam could have injected her) with this particular “strain” (model) of nanite. There are lot of potential reasons why he may not have been infected, many of which can be based on the same sorts of reasons determining whether you’d get infected by a virus. (This is why I mentioned it in the last post and why don’t have a problem with the issue in the episode). [EDIT: okay I just read your last post. Sorry I wrote the reponse offline when I had breaks. See you thought about it. It was a possibility. You came up with a very good reason for him not being infected :) and its one that receives some support by the scanner. Though as I said above its more the case it would reduce the probablity of infection. In many respects, it's all about probabilities. :)]

We also have to remember at this point that some time had passed between when Weir was infected and when she passed out in her office, yet she didn’t (I’m assuming) infect anyone else. We can deduce from that there are some constraints on the nanite’s ability, just as there are constraints on the ability of a virus to infect others. For example, they may have been in an initial incubation-like period (as they were trying to suppress her immune system and replicate and they may have still been in this stage in the episode) and/or they aren’t transmitted by simple contact etc. We can also deduce from what was said in the episode that A) it takes a certain critical number of nanites to infect someone, b) it takes a certain critical number of nanites to maintain control over the host (e.g., Weir wasn’t taken over immediately; also, when their numbers were diminished Weir was better able to fight back), c) this control of the hosts immune system is required to facilitate replication of the nanites. Continued replication ensures survival. But is that the end aim, kind of like for a virus, or is there something more going on?

Let me take a step back at this point, since this is relevant at the same time. Revenge, control and survival Actually I do see the potential vengeance element. Actually I think you can consider it a combination of all three elements (revenge, control and survival) which got Weir to where she was in the episode (with there being a potential fourth factor thrown in, which is either simply the long term survival of the line/strain or something else … which has me kind of curious). And I should have clarified that when I say control I don’t mean they were intending to guide Weir around by remote control or something like that. But rather they needed to control her immune system and her consciousness (which in turn facilitates their control of her immune system) in order to replicate. By doing so it ensures their survival. In that way vengeance becomes the motivation behind her initial infection by Niam, with her death being a simple consequence of the nanites fight for survival and their use of her for food and spare parts. That’s not to say that Niam wasn’t happy (in so far as an Assuran can be “happy”) with the prospect of her death. Maybe that’s all he wanted (i.e., he may have simply used the nanites like a kind of biological weapon) but it doesn’t seem to be the “purpose” of the nanites themselves. If they were simply programmed to kill her then it wouldn’t take long to replicate enough to simply block blood flow to her brain, particularly her brain stem, or to shred her brain stem and so on (actions that would kill her quickly). A lot less than the volume scan indicated she had in her. This is what Carson was getting at in the quote xfkirsten posted just above. But then at the same time maybe the motivation of Niam infecting her was revenge. This is outside of what Carson was saying. So, anyway, beyond the potential motivation of Niam for revenge we get back to the nanites themselves and the issue of control and survival. Maybe all the nanites have is a simple directive of survival. To obtain this goal of survival appears to necessitate maintaining some control of the host’s immune system and control of her “consciousness”, which in turn facilitates better control over the immune system. In many respect you can consider Weir’s fantasy life as the manifestation of that struggle for control between the nanites and Weir. Weir giving up and refusing to fight would actually make it easier for the nanites to control her immune system and thereby increase their chances of survival (yes there really is a link between your immune system and your cognitions). That’s what I meant by control. From memory John brought up the issue of control. I just elaborated …. quite a bit. ;)

Anyway, the question that really interests me is, was there some additional end result from their fight in Weir? Was it simply long-term survival of the line/strain/model much like a virus. i.e., Go forth and be bountiful! Go out, multiply and when they’d reached a critical mass (by the time they had controlled Weir and slowly consumed her *eww*) infect others. Who would in turn be consumed slowly and then infect other etc etc. Was their fight for survival simply that, like a virus (incubate and multiply in a host and eventually spread to new hosts and so on). Or was there something else? Was it something more insidious? For instance, after infecting one or more people and using their body to replicate would there be enough nanites to construct an Assuran? In other words was in a case of invasion by stealth. (I think Beckett hinted at this, but not quite in the dark way I’m insinuating). Was it something else? I don’t know. But did I mention that I still don’t have a problem with John not being infected? ;)

*breath*

Reaceania
January 7th, 2007, 07:19 AM
well they were telling her it didnt exist.....but I would have thought she would want to see if Sheppard was contactable. If he was, i.e. on earth, it would validate the 'atlantis isnt real' theory :D

Would it?
Wouldn't she question why she knew him and what he looked like etc. "If those 2 years on Atlantis didn't happen and Atlantis doesn't exist why do I know him at all?"
(I can make the stretch that she may have seen Jack in passing at UN negotiations or heard his name before that's why when he turned up even though the stargate program wasn't real she didn't go ahha! But it's hard to do that stretch twice.

Would it also stop her from thinking "I'm being tortured by Cardasians or someone's messing with my head and making me see John"

:D

I still would like her to openly question whether she really is back in the real world some point. mwahahahaha

obsessed1
January 7th, 2007, 09:25 AM
Would it?
Wouldn't she question why she knew him and what he looked like etc. "If those 2 years on Atlantis didn't happen and Atlantis doesn't exist why do I know him at all?"
(I can make the stretch that she may have seen Jack in passing at UN negotiations or heard his name before that's why when he turned up even though the stargate program wasn't real she didn't go ahha! But it's hard to do that stretch twice.

Would it also stop her from thinking "I'm being tortured by Cardasians or someone's messing with my head and making me see John"

:D

I still would like her to openly question whether she really is back in the real world some point. mwahahahaha
Either way, if they found him it would prove something to her although i see what you're getting at also :D

Vicky
January 15th, 2007, 03:26 AM
That ep was just the bestest Torri/Elizabeth episode ever (or at least for the moment).

She deserved to have an ep center on her character and she showed to everybody what a talented actress she is.

It's definitely my fave Atlantis ep so far because first it deals with my favourite character, and then it was so well wrapped up!

Alexandra
August 3rd, 2007, 12:49 AM
I liked this episode a lot and I am surprised that is doesn't have better fan rating!

I like Torri, she was great!

But..... the story was a bit of a blur, why didn't she ask anything about the members of her team, Shep, McKay, Carson. Instead she asks to see general O'Neill. Of course he was the big boss but I think I would ask to see my friends if I were her.
Maybe her mind was so twisted that she didn't remember much.

But, that was a great episode and really scary, if we try to imagine what it would be like if in this instant we would wake up in a mental treatment facility and be told that we have dreamed the last 2 years of our lives because of a terrible loss. God, I don't even want to think about it! It's horrible.
And Elizabeth/Torri was so great!

The nano virus idea is interesting in this episode, with some minor flaws, but I guess that the replicator story imported from SG-1, it's not too original.

And I liked how John reacted, a soldier that follows the shortest path to save another he cares about, regardless of the consequences. It really showed me something about him that I didn't know exactly.

MmmmMcKAy
September 21st, 2007, 06:02 AM
While not my favorite episode, I still enjoyed it. Good to see a lot more of Weir(and a chance for Torri to shine). I really felt her terror and confusion. I like the look too...sort of blue all over. Bad part..O'Neill....I just can't stand him.

Trek_Girl42
September 22nd, 2007, 04:52 PM
While not my favorite episode, I still enjoyed it. Good to see a lot more of Weir(and a chance for Torri to shine). I really felt her terror and confusion. I like the look too...sort of blue all over. Bad part..O'Neill....I just can't stand him.
Torri was excellent- Weir has always been one of my favourite characters and afer this episode I like her even more! I am extremely impressed with how this season has gone so far- the only episode I haven't liked is Irresistable.

It's odd, I felt for the first half of the episode like I was rooting for her to live her normal life on Earth rather than hope she get back to Atlantis- I kind of wanted to see what her life would be like if she wasn't heading the expedition. :P And RDA was great- a guest appearence not used to further crappy S/J shippyness! This is how he should be used! :D :P

MmmmMcKAy
September 22nd, 2007, 05:01 PM
No, no, no........never use Jack again...PLEASE!!!!!!;);)

Trek_Girl42
September 22nd, 2007, 05:04 PM
No, no, no........never use Jack again...PLEASE!!!!!!;);)
Ooooh, I insist that he is used as much as possible!!!!! :D

First
November 21st, 2007, 04:32 PM
The first half of this ep seemed painful to watch. This is the Stargate universe. We know what we are seeing is not real. We know it's a dream/mind probe/alterante reality or something, like has been used too many times before. I can't accept what I'm seeing as real. It felt like it dragged on too long before we were shown what was really happening.

That issue aside, once we found out what was really going on, it was a very good episode.


(Emphasis mine) I loved that eerie vibe, when she saw Sheppard on her bedroom I had a flashback to an X-Files episode (Duane Barry) when a guy who's going to get abducted sees the aliens' shadows, and it was really creepy, and when she saw him through the plastic curtain I felt it again.
That's how I felt when I was watching this episode, all the while it was like watching a good old X-Files episode.


+1
The creepy silhouette of an observer from behind the glass.....excellent. I like the twist that this was actually the good guys trying to help, and that to accept the artificial reality was to accept defeat. My first reaction was to think, just play along with it and find out what's really going on. But constantly fighting it was the right course of action.

Nanites made from organic material, and taking control of people. That starts to blur the line between man and machine!

Achaja
November 22nd, 2007, 10:40 AM
Ooooh, I insist that he is used as much as possible!!!!! :D
I agree...besides- good episode!:weir: very like brainwashing episodes.

Ozzy O'NeiLL
December 16th, 2007, 05:11 AM
I agree...besides- good episode!:weir: very like brainwashing episodes.

I'll happily second that!

Also, JACK O'NEILL in the episode!

Like, WOAH!

They created a very nice plot for this one, as the aftermath of the RepliAncient's touch on the ep. before.

And with JACK O'NEILL, seriously.

I'm done ^^

Chrisisall
February 26th, 2008, 07:42 AM
This was a re-working of an episode of Buffy almost scene-for-scene in places, but it was really well done, and that's what counts in the end.

:weiranime17:isall

Achaja
March 23rd, 2008, 02:58 PM
woohoo! I've just watch it again and..mmm...this is exactly what I expect from SGA. Action, mysteriousness, stars (ohh so miss Lizzy!)I mean- a really good acting; interesting plot, sometimes scarry, unexpectable!

This episode is one of my few favourites, a really good one (if not perfect!)
:weiranime17::sheppard:

nowvoyager908
June 28th, 2008, 02:12 PM
Just caught the episode again in syndication. It has always been one of my favorites.

Loved Elizabeth in this one. Weir was always one of my favorite characters and Torri really pulled this one off. It was nice to see the entire core team working together (sort of) to come up with some kind of answer to the nanites. Though John kind of won the day in the end (big shock there :rolleyes:).

The whole episode made me misty for the good ole days.

drusila87
August 10th, 2008, 02:08 PM
nowvoyager908:

Loved Elizabeth in this one. Weir was always one of my favorite characters and Torri really pulled this one off.

It´s nice to read positive opinions about Weir.
She is one of my favourite characters too. And I think there are a lot of people who love Weir, but the anti Weir people is constantly saying that she is a boring character.

But talking about the episode again:
I enjoyed it, a lot.
I really love the space battles and the action episodes, but the good science fiction is more than that. And episodes like this or Stateda are examples about what SciFi is about. It´s about personal storylines too.

A really good episode.
One of the better things: See the entire team together.
In fact, my favourite episodes are those in that we can see all the team. Like Hide and Sheek, 38 minutes, The Storm/The Eye, Hot Zone, The Siege (I, II and III), The Return (I and II) or Echoes.

Ozzy O'NeiLL:

They created a very nice plot for this one, as the aftermath of the RepliAncient's touch on the ep. before.

I thought the same when I saw the episode for the first time.
One of the best things about stargate is the coherence in the facts that we discover in every episode.:cool:

First:


Nanites made from organic material, and taking control of people. That starts to blur the line between man and machine!

Yeah! That´s cool!
By the way:
Maybe I´m wrong, but I thought the nanites aren´t made of organic material. What they do is interact with the organic material.:confused:

First
August 11th, 2008, 05:51 PM
Maybe I´m wrong, but I thought the nanites aren´t made of organic material. What they do is interact with the organic material.:confused:
Normally true, but the nanites also started to replicate using organic material, which is why the EMP only worked on some of the nanites.

drusila87
August 12th, 2008, 12:30 PM
Normally true, but the nanites also started to replicate using organic material, which is why the EMP only worked on some of the nanites.

You´re totally right. :o
I know that the EMP didn´t work efficiently because they had interact with organic material, but I forgot that the way the nanites interact with the materials in general is using it to replicate.
I think I was a little bit sleepy that night!!

I always have thought that the replicators are as real as we are.
What I mean is that we are made of small and independent structural units (the cells) that could adopt different forms to do the function that they have to do. And the same for the replicators:
They are also made of small and independent structural units (The nanites) that also could adopt different forms to do the¡r functions.

The only difference is what are those units made of, because our cells are made of organic material.

First
August 12th, 2008, 08:00 PM
Yeah it makes it hard to define what is a life form. I wonder if they really can ascend as some of them hope to be able to do?

Rac80
August 14th, 2008, 01:35 PM
This has long been one of my favorite eps. I loved Torri Higginson in it. I thought she played it perfectly. It showed us a new side of Weir, her ability to overcome against high odds. As a psych. major, this show had special interest for me - I loved the imagery of the replicators doing a psychologiocal assault on elizabeth. All in all one of the BEST SGA eps. :D