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GateWorld
July 14th, 2006, 01:53 PM
<DIV ALIGN="center"><TABLE WIDTH="450" BORDER="0" CELLSPACING="0" CELLPADDING="7"><TR><TD><DIV ALIGN="left"><FONT FACE="Verdana, Arial, san-serif" SIZE="2" COLOR="#000000"><A HREF="http://www.gateworld.net/atlantis/s3/305.shtml"><IMG SRC="http://www.gateworld.net/atlantis/graphics/305.jpg" WIDTH="160" HEIGHT="120" ALIGN="right" HSPACE="10" VSPACE="2" BORDER="0" STYLE="border: 1px black solid" ALT="Visit the Episode Guide"></A><FONT SIZE="1" COLOR="#888888">ATLANTIS SEASON THREE</FONT>
<FONT SIZE="4"><A HREF="http://www.gateworld.net/atlantis/s3/305.shtml" STYLE="text-decoration: none">PROGENY</A></FONT>
<FONT SIZE="1">EPISODE NUMBER - 305</FONT>
<IMG SRC="/images/clear.gif" WIDTH="1" HEIGHT="10" ALT="">
Weir and the team visit an advanced civilization that split off from the Lanteans thousands of years ago, but discover that they may not have left Atlantis in peace.

<FONT SIZE="1" COLOR="#888888"><B><A HREF="http://www.gateworld.net/atlantis/s3/305.shtml">VISIT THE EPISODE GUIDE ></A></B>
SPOILERS! PHOTOS! AND MORE!</FONT></FONT></DIV></TD></TR></TABLE></DIV>

NowIWillDestroyAbydos
August 11th, 2006, 07:04 PM
Great ep. I'm happy we saw the human form Replicators again. I can wait for "The Return" in a few weeks.

Dromag67
August 11th, 2006, 07:04 PM
One Word:

Amazing.


Breathtaking CGI.

Awesome City ship.

Awesome new enemy.

siXbrownSnakes2
August 11th, 2006, 07:04 PM
Honestly one of the best Atlantis episodes to date. Sateda and now this! S3 sounds great. The last scene with Niam floating in space really set the tone for the episode as a whole. The CGI was great, everything was great.

There was a lack of suspense at times, but that may have come from reading the spoilers. I can't wait for "The Return" now!

Grats to Carl Binder for writing such a fantastic episode.

uknesvuinng
August 11th, 2006, 07:04 PM
Someone please tell me why the Stargate personnel are incapable of learning from mistakes? Betray the replicators once, it returns to cause them massive trouble. The Ancients betrayed these replicators, and it caused problems. Why do they think it would be a good idea to immediately betray the replicators a third time, especially when a peaceful solution with a high probability of success has already presented itself. Keep the freeze-the-replicators-and-blow-up-the-city plan as a backup, but give the other plan a reasonable chance.

Why must characters make stupid decisions to advance the plot?

Pharaoh Atem
August 11th, 2006, 07:05 PM
One Word:

Amazing.


Breathtaking CGI.

Awesome City ship.

Awesome new enemy.
ya there goes the budget for the rest of the year lol

Dromag67
August 11th, 2006, 07:06 PM
At least they didn't betray and leave behind their one ally this time, even though he didnt stick around long.

siXbrownSnakes2
August 11th, 2006, 07:06 PM
Someone please tell me why the Stargate personnel are incapable of learning from mistakes? Betray the replicators once, it returns to cause them massive trouble. The Ancients betrayed these replicators, and it caused problems. Why do they think it would be a good idea to immediately betray the replicators a third time, especially when a peaceful solution with a high probability of success has already presented itself. Keep the freeze-the-replicators-and-blow-up-the-city plan as a backup, but give the other plan a reasonable chance.

Why must characters make stupid decisions to advance the plot?

You would have done differently in Weir's position?

You might not be talking if Atlantis had gotten destroyed in the process.

You saw at the end that Niam couldn't resist the "resetting" of his base code--that is evident enough that Oberoth would not have reconsidered and Atlantis would be sinking in pieces right now.

IWantToBelieve
August 11th, 2006, 07:07 PM
The first half of this was great. The second half felt like watching Unnatural Selection all over again. It fell completely flat for me.

prion
August 11th, 2006, 07:07 PM
AWESOME!

KICKASS!

Excelelnt episode. Carl Binder knows how to do the Shep-McKay banter as well as write scenes in which the team actually interacts. That impressed me more than the great SPX (like the pseudo-Atlantis, the flying city, and the gorgeous moonlight sky over Atlantis).

Plus the Shep whump, the McKay whump (which fanfic writers will have a ball with).

verbalkint
August 11th, 2006, 07:10 PM
Is it me or does the moral question presented in this Atlantis code pretty much like a recycled event of sg1's dealings with "fifth" and the other original human replicators? Another thing is how can McKay rewire code in a couple of hours tops yet the Asurans couldn't do it in thousands of years. Finally, I hope they realize that since Niam (sp?) is not an organic life form that he doesn't need oxygen to survive and so he is just floating in space gazing at Atlantis? How about they take the initiative to rewrite his code again, disconnect the subspace communication between him and the other Asurans and retrieve him.

The next logical move would be for the Atlantis expedition to return to earth because if the Asurans could build 1 Atlantis, they can certainly build another one and they will just come after Atlantis again without having to worry about internal sabotage.

I wonder what kind of weapons the Asurans were planning on using to destroy Atlantis? To me that is the most significant question left by this episode.

JanusAncient
August 11th, 2006, 07:10 PM
Seeing the city ship fly was definitely a high point. But, repeating the Ancient's mistake, they had a chance to make a powerful ally, and they threw it away. The Ancient's are kind of heartless after seeing that, I really don't like them, all those ships firing on the Asuran city. I thought the Asurans attacked the Ancient's, but it seems like the Ancient's let them go build a city, begin a civilization, and then decided just to wipe them out, for no apparent reason. Still, it was nice to see so manyy Lantian ships, but their weapons weren't causing much damage to the city itself.

smushybird
August 11th, 2006, 07:10 PM
Progeny was interesting, but so downbeat. I hate to see the Atlantis team perfecting their manipulation and betrayal skills. :( Certainly Liz has it down pat. I think she should stay home in the future. She's ready to destroy whole civilizations these days at the drop of a hat.

They're really becoming the bad guys of the universe.

Poor Liam. That was awful.

The special effects were brilliant. Really excellent job of it. And David Ogden Stiers was fantastic, too. Wicked arrogance. Nice job.

Some nice Sheppard-McKay interaction saved the ep from being entirely depressing. They're such boys. Loved the exchange of smacks. :)

verbalkint
August 11th, 2006, 07:11 PM
The first half of this was great. The second half felt like watching Unnatural Selection all over again. It fell completely flat for me.
Exactly, I was loving the episode until it started to feel like I was watching Unnatural Selection. I wonder far Asuras is from Lantia and how long it took for them to get to Lantia using the star drive.

obsessed1
August 11th, 2006, 07:12 PM
Sounds like a cool ep. Flying cities, evil villans etc Can uh anyone tell a whumpaholic, will probably write a fanfic about it, slightly obsessed person, what the shep whump was?
Maybe a summary of the ep too? Oh i'm a pain........
:sheppard: :sheppard:

TechnoBoY
August 11th, 2006, 07:12 PM
I liked it a lot! Wow! An episode with some meat to it. I like!

It mightve been similar to a few SG1 eps, but they sure did a great job! Good episode, kept me interested!

Yey, more hope for SGA.

Pharaoh Atem
August 11th, 2006, 07:12 PM
highlights in this episode

seeing a city ship fly, our Atlantis getting destroyed (loved that part) the scene where there are 15 or more Aurora class ships overall great CGI

once again SGA makes me forget what happen on SG-1 tonight

thorthefifth
August 11th, 2006, 07:13 PM
I don't know. It was a great episode overall. It left me confused. Did the Ancients create the replicators and if so are they the same as the android Reese we found a long time ago? It kept my attention the whole way through, I have to say. Season 3 is off to a great start.

uknesvuinng
August 11th, 2006, 07:13 PM
You would have done differently in Weir's position?

You might not be talking if Atlantis had gotten destroyed in the process.

You saw at the end that Niam couldn't resist the "resetting" of his base code--that is evident enough that Oberoth would not have reconsidered and Atlantis would be sinking in pieces right now.
Well, the original plan should have involved using the update before trying to convince Oberoth or anyone. By changing the plan, they made the others aware of a "problem" with Niam, and so they changed his code. The original plan had plenty of time to be attempted before using the freeze. They jumped the gun and it cost them the opportunity for a great alliance.

verbalkint
August 11th, 2006, 07:14 PM
Seeing the city ship fly was definitely a high point. But, repeating the Ancient's mistake, they had a chance to make a powerful ally, and they threw it away. The Ancient's are kind of heartless after seeing that, I really don't like them, all those ships firing on the Asuran city. I thought the Asurans attacked the Ancient's, but it seems like the Ancient's let them go build a city, begin a civilization, and then decided just to wipe them out, for no apparent reason. Still, it was nice to see so manyy Lantian ships, but their weapons weren't causing much damage to the city itself.
Its ironic because there isn't 1 noted instance of that type of aggression the lanteans shown against the Asurans while they were battling the wraith. Maybe they should have used that method more on wraith hive ships and things would have turned out differently.

Is it just me or does the Ancients seem no better than anyone else?

TechnoBoY
August 11th, 2006, 07:14 PM
I dont even know why McKay said they might be related to the Replicators. Those were created by the andriod girl from that planet. They did reuse the same hand in head effect though.

northstar_08030
August 11th, 2006, 07:15 PM
The first half of this was great. The second half felt like watching Unnatural Selection all over again. It fell completely flat for me.

The same here, as soon as McKay said they are Relicaptors, the episode seem to follow the same path of that episode. But, on the good side, we have them back again in the Stargate. Maybe Niam could be the next 5th.

verbalkint
August 11th, 2006, 07:15 PM
Well, the original plan should have involved using the update before trying to convince Oberoth or anyone. By changing the plan, they made the others aware of a "problem" with Niam, and so they changed his code. The original plan had plenty of time to be attempted before using the freeze. They jumped the gun and it cost them the opportunity for a great alliance.
The team should have just updated the code to Liam and allowed him to at least try. Have the freeze plan as a backup just in case Oberoth couldn't be convinced.

FoolishPleasure
August 11th, 2006, 07:16 PM
It looked great, it felt great at first, I WANTED it to be great, but all it was, was a total rip-off of "Unnatural Selection", which is one of my all time fav SG1 episodes.

Disappointed, to say the least.

IWantToBelieve
August 11th, 2006, 07:16 PM
Exactly, I was loving the episode until it started to feel like I was watching Unnatural Selection. I wonder far Asuras is from Lantia and how long it took for them to get to Lantia using the star drive.

Exactly. The second half was like watching unnatural selection all over again, except that episode had a better solution. I was incredibly disappointed to see that kind of an ending on such a great start.

Daniel's Sister
August 11th, 2006, 07:17 PM
As usual, great ep!

I love how they made Rodney nice. I mean saying stuff like: are you okay?; I'm sorry that it didn't work; stuff like that. :mckayanime03:.

I also think that Ronon was trying to impress Teyla with his fancy gun work.
:ronananime28:

It was a great way to introduce the new enemy. Unfortunately my dad totally missed that. Even though my bro has told him that ... a few times. (sigh)

I also loved that look that Zelenka gave Rondney at the end when Rodney said that he hates it when people don't admit their mistakes. That look was a classic.

And all I could think of was Fith when they said that they would take the replicator dude with them. Only they did take him.

And the parts where John and Rodney were acting like two year olds was so cute. Them argueing over how much time before the city blows up was so childish. And they looked like little boys too. That made it all the funnier. :sheppardanime31: :mckay09:


Writers: GREAT JOB!!! :zelenka25:

coolove
August 11th, 2006, 07:17 PM
The first half of this was great. The second half felt like watching Unnatural Selection all over again. It fell completely flat for me.

I'm with you on this one. I guess there are only so many stories you can tell without becoming redundant but on Atlantis it's just getting tiresome for me.

verbalkint
August 11th, 2006, 07:18 PM
I dont even know why McKay said they might be related to the Replicators. Those were created by the andriod girl from that planet. They did reuse the same hand in head effect though.
The theory is that one of the ancients who designed the Asuran nanites were one of the ones who returned to Earth and travelled through the stargate to another planet where he created Reese who was capable of creating nanites herself and control them. Reese then created the replicators as toys and the rest is history.

NowIWillDestroyAbydos
August 11th, 2006, 07:19 PM
Exactly. The second half was like watching unnatural selection all over again, except that episode had a better solution. I was incredibly disappointed to see that kind of an ending on such a great start.
You right it did feel a little like Unnatural Selection. This is Carl's best episode to date. And I'm surprised Mikita directed it, this would have been a good ep for a Wood or DeLuise directed ep. But Andy does a good job too.

cafine_us
August 11th, 2006, 07:21 PM
Exactly. The second half was like watching unnatural selection all over again, except that episode had a better solution. I was incredibly disappointed to see that kind of an ending on such a great start.
Definitely. I would be ok with the repeat if this was a one-shot episode, but to use a recurring villain on Atlantis that was similar to a recurring villain on SG1 is too much. I want something completely different.

vaberella
August 11th, 2006, 07:22 PM
120/10

Was this episode fantastic?! Bloody hell yes!!

Was it better than Sateda?! Hell bloody YES!!

I loved Sateda, and seriously thought no episode could be better than Sateda, but this episode was fantastic, from visualization, thank you cinematogpher!! To the writers, except for a character, but all others were great, and it was a bloody great team ep. The Asurans, are my gods! I'm sorry Ori....it's all about Asurans---ie Terminator style punks. Not fair, but wicked.


John: Yes, he is almost godlike. We're talking amazing acting, and that moment of giving up his life for the team from Sateda, can be seen in this episode during the Asuran manipulation. He was fantastic and there realy wasn't anything wrong on his side. He knew what to say and what to do and he did well with what he was given.

Teyla: I love her and she's the main one with a brain as always. She stated she didn't trus them and that there was more than met the eye and we should be weary. John of course backed her up and her fighting of course amazing. Great episode.

McKay: The other half of McVab was at this best. A bit annoyed he's always fixing things, but he was great and did that scene in the cell with John was hilarious. My man is always getting abused. Anyway great moment.

Ronon: For a minute there, I thought it was Sateda part two. Ronon was twirling his gun like it was a lollipop. Anyway it was a great ep for him. And what's up with that flip after the b**** slap?! Wicked! Anyway I liked him in the ep and for minimal lines he was definitely a significant part of the ep.


Weir: Oh dear, what to say. I'm done with her, I don't hate her, but I there will be nothing to make me love her. I will give her props as I have done when she's in the right, but she's a character officially off my list of important. From the beginning moment when she made that about civilized...I got the impression that everyone else who doesn't live in a citylike area are not worth her time. They are savages, untrustworthy, and not worth her time. Obertoth treated her just as insignificant she made all the other people of the PG who are not in the same elk the same. I'm utterly disgusted.

Then there was the destruction of the ship. McKay tried to help in altering the system and he succeeded, and yet, and yet, Weir ordered it's destruction. I'm like you didn't do this with Michael, but it's totally okay to do this with the Asurans who were the ones VICTIMIZED in all this?! Obviously she has no emotion on this and thinks the Ancients are blessed, so I'm done with this. And we lose a sister ship. Also she saves him but leaves the other two lovely ladies who were helping him. And he ended up betraying his people. Sad, sad....the writing for her will never work it seems, and the character is just not waking up.


Asurans: Now these are the enemies that make the Wraith look like pussy cats. The dude slapped Ronon like misquito and walked thorugh the ship doors. It's fantastic. I loved that. I love Obertoth. I liked them all. These are great enemies, the best I've seen, and the whole Terminator aspect was cool for me.


We lose another sister ship, but that city was fantastical and beautiful and grande and hopefully I want to see more like that. I can't wait for more of this. I want a major Asuran attack, I can't wait when they take over. Great ep, nothign was wrong here..besides Weir's writing, but that was minute compared to everything else. Great overall ep!!

We have betrayal, we have honor, we have sacrifice, we have action--which is always great, we have great overall storyline. We have great acting and characterization ---minus one. Everything was class!




Cooper/Binder thank you for this great story. I love it!


120/10
:sheppard: :teyla: :mckay:
Teyla in a McShep sandwhich!

ShadowMaat
August 11th, 2006, 07:24 PM
There was a lot to love about this ep- the action, the story, the characters... Unfortunately, history gets in the way and I could never quite shake my uneasiness about the whole thing.

As wonderful as I thought this ep was, it's still about the Replicators and I cannot express in words the depth and scale of my loathing and disgust with TPTB for so blatantly resurrecting an SG-1 enemy and bringing them to Atlantis. How is Atlantis supposed to be its "own show" if TPTB keep crippling it with stuff borrowed from SG-1?

There were echoes of Allies (enemy offering an alliance which Atlantis accepts because "it's not like we have any choice"- a line I'm pretty sure was also used then) and there were echoes of Unnatural Selection, as well, only this time SG-1 AR-1 didn't leave Fifth Niam behind. I did like the twist of Fifth Niam being "reset", but the existence of the millions of other Replicators on the Asuran world should have been an obvious consideration, even if no one thought they could communicate over such vast distances.

The shot of Niam floating in space was nice foreshadowing, but the previews for next week's ep destroyed most of the good accomplished here.

You know, it's bad enough when Atlantis tales are blatantly lifted from SG-1, but when you lift ACTUAL FRACKING SCENES from SG-1 and transfer them to Atlantis? You gotta ask yourself WTF you think you're doing. Daniel Weir opening the door to find an event horizon... puh-lease. That's beyond awful. Can't you people come up with something more ORIGINAL??

*sigh* Still, I liked the ep a lot more than I thought I would. The set-up was a lot more believable than SOME plotlines I could mention, everyone seemed to be in character and on their toes, and I liked Shep's Rep-induced vision, although all those hiveships popping out at once seemed awfully suspicious to me. Granted, there wasn't a lot of time to stop and think, "Hey, where the hell did they all come from?" but it still nagged. I'd be curious to know what some of the others envisioned.

I wish Niam could have been a little less Fifth-like, but whatever. I also wish they could have chosen a better name for him because I constantly have to remind myself that it's Niam, not Nian; another innocent caught up in events. :rolleyes:

What I wish most of all, though, is that I could have enjoyed this ep without any reservations... and here's where being a Stargate fan becomes a hindrance. If I'd never watched SG-1, if I didn't know the history of the Replicators and Fifth and all the various other hints and shadings I think I would have enjoyed the ep even more. Progeny was great... but its use of crutches was a disappointment.

uknesvuinng
August 11th, 2006, 07:24 PM
Elizabeth does seem to be quite happy to manipulate, betray, and destroy entire civilizations these days, doesn't she? She seems to have lost perspective. She needs a vacation.

Beyond the bad plan, it was an excellent episode. David Ogden Stiers showed his acting prowess (though I must admit, I have problems separating any character he plays from Charles Emerson Winchester III). The CGI was brilliant, especially in the flashback sequence detailing the birth of the Asurans. The city was absolutely beautiful and simply felt huge in scale. The story was much more engaging that many episodes we've had since S2. I don't look forward to next week's episode, but there's hope that future episodes could prove much better.

Infernorhythm
August 11th, 2006, 07:25 PM
Ok, first off, that was David Odgen Stiers. I never thought I'd see Major Charles Emerson Winchester III again since his famous "Gentlemen" line at the end of M*A*S*H. He had a creepy arrogance that totally threw me off, even though I was having M*A*S*H flashbacks.

The episode itself was awesome. It's hard to top Sateda, but this one made the former an equal. I have to say, I knew the spoilers for this episode, but I still blown away. That fake out with the mind probe got me. I actually thought the Wraith had shown up after being sent by the Asurans. Yeah, I knew the city wasn't doomed, but christ, that was shocking and heartpounding. The banter between Rodney and Shep was classic, and didn't feel like a retread of previous conversations. I have to say, I am loving that running gag of everyone realizing something and turning to Rodney to fix things. The writers even poked fun at that with Rodney's "why don't I go on these missions myself" thing. The ending though, that was great. I love the throwback to "38 Minutes" with blowing open the airlock. Great move. That final shot, creepy as all get out. It's like the end of Firefly's "Objects in Space" without the humor.

Whoever did the CGI gets some applause from me. That scene where Niam showed Weir the Asuran city burning was kind of bland, but the others scenes outdid themselves. That shot of Oberod walking through the door was trippy as heck. Hopefully the budget hasn't been blown.

Overall, Atlantis is screwed.

4.5/5

Daniel's_twin
August 11th, 2006, 07:26 PM
A fantastic ep. This is a teriffic set-up. Agreed, it did feel a lot like Unnatural Selection towards the end there, but it turned out allright.

The story was amazing. I thought the whole Ronan showing off thing was a little ridiculous, but oh well. I didn't trust the Asurans the moment they started acting all boring (sort of like the Aschen). But I wasn't expecting them to be an original version of the Replicators. I think I'm getting a better idea of how Reese was made.

Anyway, the effects were also cool. The explanation of the Asurans' origin was amazingly done, and we finally get to see an Atlantis fly in hyperspace (also finally answers my question as to how the ship would fly, straight "up" or "sideways" (it's all relative I know, but it was just a personal thing).

There's a lot more to be said for this episode, but I don't want to keep you too long. Ultimately, an excellent episode to which I give a 5/5. Keep the good stories coming! :cool:

Lord Shiva
August 11th, 2006, 07:27 PM
You saw at the end that Niam couldn't resist the "resetting" of his base code--that is evident enough that Oberoth would not have reconsidered and Atlantis would be sinking in pieces right now.

That upset me... I was hoping that we'd actually have Liam join Atlantis or at least be a part of the show, a machine trying to Ascend. Would have been cool.

But it was a great episode!

Not_The_MaMa
August 11th, 2006, 07:27 PM
I was very happy with this episode, allthoe I feel that the massive Atlantis that the replicators made should have been how large the real Atlantis is, dose anyone el's feel the same? I was also happy that there where 3 ZPM's there and that McKay only needed 1 to overload to destroy the city.It was stupid that all of a sudden he says o well I need to overload all 3, and there was no argument or anything, I felt it was a very cheap way of making it so they could"nt take the other 2 ZPM's.

Edit: But all in all one of the best episodes yet 5 of 5.

Osiris-RA
August 11th, 2006, 07:27 PM
I can understand that SGA is searching for a better baddie than the Wraith, and the reppies most definitely are that baddie...but like many have already noted, it felt like an Unnatural Selection rip-off. With no Patrick Curry. Which really sucks.

What I don't understand is why they give the Ancients credit for building another breed of Replicators when Reese already did it, and we know that the Replicators - being masterminds of galactic travel - could easily traverse galaxies and get to Pegasus. There could have been another way to work that out -- if I'm understanding the story correctly.

Meanwhile, they probably could have gotten a different bad guy. While Replicators are Love...SGA is supposed to be it's own show. *wink* Steal some Star Trek baddies and beef them up. What about that freaky probe thing in that one ST episode?

Meanwhile, I liked the episode...if not just because some people posing as Replicators were there...

IWantToBelieve
August 11th, 2006, 07:27 PM
I don't think this is Carl's best episode. I think Aurora is.

He does do the banter nicely, the character moments. Again, I have no issues with the acting in the episode, the designs, etc...but the script had problems. This was so close to an episode all ready done that it shouldn't have gotten the go ahead until a different solution could've been constructed. Why write an episode that has the *same* basic premise as the solution. I mean, same...it's ridiculous.

In Unnatural selection they were prisoners and probed, okay,they were here too. But we only see one, but still, that was well done. But then they wake up and Niam (aka 5th) pleads for them to live and they get free access...okay...then they rewrite the code with Niam's help, but Rodney plans a way to 'freeze them'...in Unnatural Selection, the time dilation is what froze the others. Here, 'let's destroy them'...just like in Unnatural Selection, but at least in Unnatural Selection, they didn't have a choice...here, the reprogrammed code was supposed to eliminate the threat. They never even gave it a shot, just jumped right into 'let's kill them all'. Then, Niam goes along with it. Niam goes along with it. Turns over the failsafes to destroy his people! I actually thought it was an illusion because that struck me as so completely not likely. Then they make the miraculous escape, and Niam is with them, so I'm thinking, wow, okay something different but then he gets altered and spaced and is now going to of course, hate the humans and want revenge. Aka 5th. The wronged replicator.

The ending of this was just...not good.

vaberella
August 11th, 2006, 07:28 PM
Progeny was interesting, but so downbeat. I hate to see the Atlantis team perfecting their manipulation and betrayal skills. :( Certainly Liz has it down pat. I think she should stay home in the future. She's ready to destroy whole civilizations these days at the drop of a hat.

They're really becoming the bad guys of the universe.

Poor Liam. That was awful.

The special effects were brilliant. Really excellent job of it. And David Ogden Stiers was fantastic, too. Wicked arrogance. Nice job.

Some nice Sheppard-McKay interaction saved the ep from being entirely depressing. They're such boys. Loved the exchange of smacks. :)

Smushy if I can, I'm greening you for this. You are so right. I so hoped this season could help her. I had hope, but this, this episode just proved that she's not a character worth really getting into for me. She's very disapointing, and this just upset me that she said and did what she did. Oh dear...if she does anything, let her stay on Atlantis. Please!


And yeah, I guess they are becoming the bad guys. You can't differentiate them too much for Wraith...with all this. That's an entire people...in essence they are people. Adn now we have more enemies coming out as a poster before you mentioned.

The blowback is crazy now we have Asurans who are more frightening than the Wraith and the Wraith themselves.

ShadowMaat
August 11th, 2006, 07:29 PM
Actually... I have a question. Didn't McKay reprogram Niam's base code? Wasn't that the reason why he wasn't frozen like the others? And yet the Reps on the homeworld had no problem resetting him. *shrug* Dunno, maybe that's just an obvious computer thing, but it was kinda surprising.

TechnoBoY
August 11th, 2006, 07:32 PM
Truthfully when I was listening to McKay the plan sounded different. Somewhere along the line I thought that they would update everyone with the code first, and then if it didnt work then McKay would freeze them. I guess I heard wrong or something.

ShadowMaat
August 11th, 2006, 07:33 PM
Truthfully when I was listening to McKay the plan sounded different. Somewhere along the line I thought that they would update everyone with the code first, and then if it didnt work then McKay would freeze them. I guess I heard wrong or something.
I guess they decided killing them all would be easier. But yeah, I thought they were at least supposed to give the upgrade a chance. ...Although if the Homeworld Reps can simply reprogram them whenever they want, what's the point?

uknesvuinng
August 11th, 2006, 07:34 PM
Actually... I have a question. Didn't McKay reprogram Niam's base code? Wasn't that the reason why he wasn't frozen like the others? And yet the Reps on the homeworld had no problem resetting him. *shrug* Dunno, maybe that's just an obvious computer thing, but it was kinda surprising.

There was no valid reason for Niam to be exempt from the freeze anyway. The kind of change that was effected should not have had such an affect. It was just a silly excuse to have Niam aboard the jumper when they escaped.

Elles
August 11th, 2006, 07:35 PM
Actually... I have a question. Didn't McKay reprogram Niam's base code? Wasn't that the reason why he wasn't frozen like the others? And yet the Reps on the homeworld had no problem resetting him. *shrug* Dunno, maybe that's just an obvious computer thing, but it was kinda surprising.
If I remember correctly, and it's quite likely I don't... They didn't sever his supspace connection with the others because they wanted him to upload the changes they made to him to the others. That's only if I remember correctly.

EDIT: Oh... question already answered... Nevermind...

TechnoBoY
August 11th, 2006, 07:35 PM
Right but I thought that the update would go to all of them and not just the ones on the Atlantis ship they were on. So I assumed they would all have the new code if it was sent.

FoolishPleasure
August 11th, 2006, 07:36 PM
What I wish most of all, though, is that I could have enjoyed this ep without any reservations... and here's where being a Stargate fan becomes a hindrance. If I'd never watched SG-1, if I didn't know the history of the Replicators and Fifth and all the various other hints and shadings I think I would have enjoyed the ep even more. Progeny was great... but its use of crutches was a disappointment.
Fans who don't watch SG1, or who have never seen Unnatural Selection, will call this a classic.

Fifth/Niam, whatever his name this time around, may have gone on the ship, but he was still booted and left behind, angry, and ready to kick butt when he comes back. Ho hum. We've seen this before. :rolleyes:

I can understand reworking an old SG1 episode that didn't work first time around. "Intruder" is a good example of that. But to take one of SG1's BEST episodes to do a remake is almost sacriligious. I'm not even interested in seeing the episodes where these dudes return.

And what is the deal with Teyla now channeling Deanna Troi? "I feel they are hiding something!" Good grief. Where is my remote!?!?

Major Gambit
August 11th, 2006, 07:36 PM
WOW.

That is all I have to say.

vaberella
August 11th, 2006, 07:36 PM
Again I keep seeing complaints on rehashed eps, and I'm like other shows had the same eps, and shows before them had the same eps. I mean everyone is ripping everyone off. I would just not bother watchign television if I wanted serious originality. Everything is fairly comparable...the point is, our characters are different.

And please remember...there are quiet few of us who probably never saw an ep of SG1 so we don't sit there complaining. And I think the writers are really trying to cater to them, but also keep you guys happy with possibly similar eps that were popular.

Industry does this all the time, the X-men movies didn't cater to the die hard long term X-Men fans like myself. They market and make it available for those who dont' know aything and are just newly introduced, ie. the new people who watched the film---who know NOTHING about X-Men. Does it bug me? Yeah, but it's a marketing selection that makes sense in regards to build popularity and awakening a few more fans. I think this was great..and I still went to see the X-Men movies!! Same as you guys saw this episode.

Mitchell82
August 11th, 2006, 07:37 PM
Is it me or does the moral question presented in this Atlantis code pretty much like a recycled event of sg1's dealings with "fifth" and the other original human replicators? Another thing is how can McKay rewire code in a couple of hours tops yet the Asurans couldn't do it in thousands of years. Finally, I hope they realize that since Niam (sp?) is not an organic life form that he doesn't need oxygen to survive and so he is just floating in space gazing at Atlantis? How about they take the initiative to rewrite his code again, disconnect the subspace communication between him and the other Asurans and retrieve him.

The next logical move would be for the Atlantis expedition to return to earth because if the Asurans could build 1 Atlantis, they can certainly build another one and they will just come after Atlantis again without having to worry about internal sabotage.

I wonder what kind of weapons the Asurans were planning on using to destroy Atlantis? To me that is the most significant question left by this episode.
I thought so at first but then they did it compleatly differntly. They did not betray anyone THEY betrayed us! It was an excellent episode and we got the tASURAN to work for us it backfired. In unnatural selection we blatenly tricked and betrayed Fith, compleatly different. Great ep, and great start on a terrific new enemy far worse than our replicators!

uknesvuinng
August 11th, 2006, 07:38 PM
I guess they decided killing them all would be easier. But yeah, I thought they were at least supposed to give the upgrade a chance. ...Although if the Homeworld Reps can simply reprogram them whenever they want, what's the point?

Since the homeworld reps were within signal range, they would have been updated as well. Even so, the reps WANTED to remove the rage long ago. There should have been, at the least, a schism between those who wanted to shed the aggression and ascend and those who simply wanted revenge.

ShadowMaat
August 11th, 2006, 07:38 PM
There was no valid reason for Niam to be exempt from the freeze anyway. The kind of change that was effected should not have had such an affect. It was just a silly excuse to have Niam aboard the jumper when they escaped.
Yes, well, once again it's whatever's convenient for the plot instead of what's logical. *sigh* Fifth is exampt from the freeze command, but is easily reset by Reps far back on the homeworld. Yeah, whatever.

BTW, was I the only one expecting Fifth to morph into Oberon Oberoth? Must be too much Matrix. ;) I suppose it's meant to be more poignant when AR-1 has to face down a former friend/ally who's now an enemy.

rarocks24
August 11th, 2006, 07:38 PM
Well, the original plan should have involved using the update before trying to convince Oberoth or anyone. By changing the plan, they made the others aware of a "problem" with Niam, and so they changed his code. The original plan had plenty of time to be attempted before using the freeze. They jumped the gun and it cost them the opportunity for a great alliance.
How so? They would have reset all of them just as they reset Niam.

coolove
August 11th, 2006, 07:39 PM
If I remember correctly, and it's quite likely I don't... They didn't sever his supspace connection with the others because they wanted him to upload the changes they made to him to the others. That's only if I remember correctly.

Isn't it rather odd that he's still left floating in space perhaps even in Atlantis's orbit? You think that they would have used the jumper to destroy Fifth, sorry Niam, because he's still connected to the others. That seems like a logical thing to do. His code was rewritten and attacked Weir.

lord-anubis
August 11th, 2006, 07:40 PM
i don't know about this ep it just remind me more of that one sg1 ep. also once again they swcred up cuz now they made a new enimie. isent the bold guy in this ep the same person who play charles on mash?

uknesvuinng
August 11th, 2006, 07:41 PM
I thought so at first but then they did it compleatly differntly. They did not betray anyone THEY betrayed us! It was an excellent episode and we got the tASURAN to work for us it backfired. In unnatural selection we blatenly tricked and betrayed Fith, compleatly different. Great ep, and great start on a terrific new enemy far worse than our replicators!
Fifth wanted the flaw in the programming fixed so that the replicators wouldn't be so aggressive and uncaring. Niam wanted the same kind of problem fixed. Both teams promised to fix it, and ultimately used that trust to harm the replicators. Had Niam frozen like everyone else, you can bet he would have still been on that city when they blew it. At least with Fifth, Jack had reasonable justification for his betrayal, and it wasn't so happily accepted by everyone else.

ShadowMaat
August 11th, 2006, 07:42 PM
I was surprised they didn't send a wossname glowy bomb thing to blow him up. And I'm also surprised that they figured a simple explosion would completely eradicate the Reps in orbit- not only because SG-1 history has proven that a false assumption but because Weir had just witnessed a flashback wherein the Ancients tried to blow up the city but a few blocks (or whatevers) survived to rebuild. Isn't that a bit of a "duh" thing? And being in orbit really wouldn't help stop them.

uknesvuinng
August 11th, 2006, 07:43 PM
How so? They would have reset all of them just as they reset Niam.

But they wouldn't have betrayed anyone as a result. Plus the reset would have affected ALL within range. Since the homeworld reps were in range all the way at Atlantis, they would have recieved the same update. There wouldn't have been anyone trying to reset anyone else.

Elles
August 11th, 2006, 07:43 PM
And what is the deal with Teyla now channeling Deanna Troi? "I feel they are hiding something!"
Don't forget about Menace... That girl was supposed to have created the replicators... not the ancients... But I suppose TPTB have an explaination for that...

As for Teyla being like Deanna Troi... I thought she was almost slightly closer to House, personally...

Icer234
August 11th, 2006, 07:44 PM
I thought this Epi was awesome! Amazing! Cool! Did I mention awesome already?

Anyway, The CGI was impressive! Kudos to the people who made it!

uknesvuinng
August 11th, 2006, 07:44 PM
I was surprised they didn't send a wossname glowy bomb thing to blow him up. And I'm also surprised that they figured a simple explosion would completely eradicate the Reps in orbit- not only because SG-1 history has proven that a false assumption but because Weir had just witnessed a flashback wherein the Ancients tried to blow up the city but a few blocks (or whatevers) survived to rebuild. Isn't that a bit of a "duh" thing? And being in orbit really wouldn't help stop them.
Egads, you expect them to think!?!? What kind of inhuman fiend are you?

Pharaoh Atem
August 11th, 2006, 07:44 PM
BTW, was I the only one expecting Fifth to morph into Oberon Oberoth? Must be too much Matrix. ;) I suppose it's meant to be more poignant when AR-1 has to face down a former friend/ally who's now an enemy.
no

ShadowMaat
August 11th, 2006, 07:45 PM
Don't forget about Menace... That girl was supposed to have created the replicators... not the ancients... But I suppose TPTB have an explaination for that...
Ah, but someone created Reese first and OBVIOUSLY her creator was an ANCIENT!! Duh. :P ;)

IWantToBelieve
August 11th, 2006, 07:45 PM
Again I keep seeing complaints on rehashed eps, and I'm like other shows had the same eps, and shows before them had the same eps. I mean everyone is ripping everyone off. I would just not bother watchign television if I wanted serious originality. Everything is fairly comparable...the point is, our characters are different.



But you should also remember, Atlantis is a spin-off from SG-1, and it's supposed to be it's own thing. There were concerns brought up when the first spoilers were released that it sounded exactly like Unnatural Selection...it's one thing to bring the replicators into Atlantis. I'm fine with that. And really, the first half of this was so incredibly good. I loved it.

But the second half was just like watching an episode I'd all ready seen, plus, the basics of it were just wrong. It wasn't just Niam trying to help them, there were others, and they very callously decided to just blow them up without letting the program have a try. And would Niam really turn his back on his people, those that felt the same as he did, and just let them be blown up like that? I just...it doesn't work. This is what I feel is Binder's weakness, he writes things that sometimes just don't work. Condemned was the same way, it didn't work.

But, the effects, the characters (Oberoth was fantastic), the acting, the banter, the character moments, I did enjoy those, immensely, but in a show that is a spin-off they should not blantantly copy episodes from the other show.

uknesvuinng
August 11th, 2006, 07:46 PM
BTW, was I the only one expecting Fifth to morph into Oberon Oberoth? Must be too much Matrix. ;) I suppose it's meant to be more poignant when AR-1 has to face down a former friend/ally who's now an enemy.

I totally expected it before the reset happened. It would have been a bit Matrix-like, but I want to know that David Ogden Stiers can return.

Hopefully the destroyed reps will be recreated.

ladysarah
August 11th, 2006, 07:47 PM
Fans who don't watch SG1, or who have never seen Unnatural Selection, will call this a classic.

So finally, never having watched SG1 (well, except TPP) can be an advantage!

Woo! I knew it would eventually.

Elles
August 11th, 2006, 07:49 PM
Well yeah... I liked it... But the whole part of the plot that involved Niam was relatively uninspired.

600 posts... Hurray?

MasySyma
August 11th, 2006, 07:52 PM
I don't think that I have ever seen an episode of SGA or SG-1 be this bad. (If you really loved the episode, you may want to stop reading right now.)

How does an obivious rip off of Menace, Unnatural Selection, and bits of other replicator episodes become such a disaster of muddy characterization, blantant plot recycling, and usless special effects.

My only positive for this episode was that the CGI of the city flying was nice. Too bad that it couldn't make up for the rest of the episode.

I have to admit that until late Season 7, I did not care for the replicator plot with the exceptions of Menace and Unnatural Selection. Therefore, the reuse of these plots already annoyed me; however, I am even more annoyed that SGA ripped off of SG-1 again, and didn't even try to steal from an early episode that the fans might have forgotten about. The Asurans even attack the mind in the same way and create visions just like Fifth, but anyone who has seen Season 8 of SG-1 knows that.

My next problem came with the characters. For once, I was fine with Ronon, but I would like McKay and Sheppard to grow up. Useless banter has its points, but it was poorly timed this week. I also wanted to see more of the visions, and Shepperd's was not that convincing given that every wraith ship in the galaxy would have had to ally to produce that kind of attack. I also want to know when exactly did SGA became the Wraith? Weir acting like Jack was bad enough, but the team has betrayed Michael, abused their few allies, and can't seem to make friends anywhere in the galaxy because people wind up dead for helping them. Sounds like the wraith to me. This week, our team arrives on this world with the proposal of "we'll find some tinker toys to give you, but you must give us your energy supply of ZPMs immediatley, even if we are a lesser developed and strange species." I'm kept waiting for Weir's hands to change before sucking the life out of the nearest Asuran. At least that would have been surprising.

I was so mad that I didn't care to even see the episode end. I've never been so annoyed as to shut an episode off, especially ten minutes from the end. I'm giving what I saw a 0/10. Unfortunately, this act also led me to another decision.

As some of you know, I have been unhappy with SGA for awhile now, and this was the last straw. Maybe, I'll see a trailer that will compel me to come back, but even knowing that Jack will be in next week's episode can't make me watch it because it looks like the recycling of an SGA plot and numerous SG-1 episodes. Unless I hear of major changes, I'm done with SGA.

ShadowMaat
August 11th, 2006, 07:53 PM
The shot of Random Soldier #4 standing on deck or whatever and looking up to see the explosion was... okay, but shouldn't Atlantis have noticed a big frackin' cityship in their orbit? Wouldn't this be something communicated to everyone with a radio?

And speaking of radios, couldn't the team have radioed Atlantis once they came out of warp hyperspace? Some added firepower at least might have been nice- as backup in case Rodney's overload plan didn't work.

the fifth man
August 11th, 2006, 07:55 PM
Great episode IMO. Nice way to introduce the Replicators to the Atlantis Universe. I can't wait to see more of these Asurans, because you know it's only a matter of time.

ShadowMaat
August 11th, 2006, 07:56 PM
Maybe, I'll see a trailer that will compel me to come back...
Oh, you mean the trailer that included a scene directly lifted from Legacy? That trailer will inspire you to come back and watch more? :P

MarshAngel
August 11th, 2006, 07:56 PM
You know I would have enjoyed this much more had I never seen SG-1. I loved the flying city, loved seeing it occupied and in action. I even liked the whole destroying Atlantis scenario.

I can't fault the team for what they did but I found some things about these replicators very confusing.

The Ancients designed these replicators, knew everything about their makeup and weaknesses and yet seemed intent on attacking them using conventional weapons? That's odd. given what they're made of, blowing them up seems awfully inefficient. It's hard to believe they waited until after they returned to the Milky Way to develop the disruptor technology.

If the Asurans wanted to destroy Atlantis did they really need to haul the entire city to Atlantis to do it? They could have gotten all the information they needed from the team, and efficiently destroy the city via stargate... they're machines, how hard could it be?

Why didn't Mckay complete the merge before the freeze? Wouldn't that order of events have worked more to their benefit? As for their violent tendencies, for violent peeps they've been awfully quiet for a long time minding their own business. It seems to me, they're no less violent than their creators.

Why would the Ancients create a nanovirus and give it so much time and material to replicate a human form? It took the replicators several years and the right materials to do it? What kind of experiment were they doing and since when did they have time to wait for that development before using it on the Wraith?

As for this ascension bit. By their own story, the Ancients are no less violent than their creators. So why would the Asurans need to eliminate their violent tendencies to ascend when it seems the Ancients hung on to theirs and had no issues.

What really bothered me the most though is Weir's comment about if the Asurans could come after them they would have. That strikes me as a stunningly naive thing to say. They have ZPMs and a flying city... it's not a matter of "could". It's clearly obvious they can.

uknesvuinng
August 11th, 2006, 07:57 PM
The shot of Random Soldier #4 standing on deck or whatever and looking up to see the explosion was... okay, but shouldn't Atlantis have noticed a big frackin' cityship in their orbit? Wouldn't this be something communicated to everyone with a radio?

And speaking of radios, couldn't the team have radioed Atlantis once they came out of warp hyperspace? Some added firepower at least might have been nice- as backup in case Rodney's overload plan didn't work.
Judging from the size of the explosion in the random soldier's view, I don't think the replicator city had quite made it into orbit. I don't recall anyone saying they were in orbit. I could have missed that though.

ShadowMaat
August 11th, 2006, 07:59 PM
If the Asurans wanted to destroy Atlantis did they really need to haul the entire city to Atlantis to do it? They could have gotten all the information they needed from the team, and efficiently destroy the city via stargate... they're machines, how hard could it be?
All they would need to do is create a Repliteam to go back through the gate- they'll have absorbed enough from the real AR-1 to pass inspection- not that folks will be much inclined towards suspicion- then simply enter the self-destruct code that Shep so conveniently provided for them and BOOM, no more Atlantis.

And then the next stop would be Earth, since that info was also accessible during the mindmeld.

MasySyma
August 11th, 2006, 08:00 PM
Oh, you mean the trailer that included a scene directly lifted from Legacy? That trailer will inspire you to come back and watch more? :P

Did it? I didn't stick around to see it. Oh well. I can cringe next week during SG-1. :)

SGC and SGA
August 11th, 2006, 08:01 PM
I for one think it has been the best episode yet in Season Three. I like how the brought back the replicators and I have a question Who created the replicators. The Ancients or Reese. Reese is the dormant female android from the episode Menace.

ShadowMaat
August 11th, 2006, 08:01 PM
Judging from the size of the explosion in the random soldier's view, I don't think the replicator city had quite made it into orbit. I don't recall anyone saying they were in orbit. I could have missed that though.
Well, maybe not in orbit, but close enough to drop out of hyperspace- and if they can detect Wraith ships dropping out of hyper, they should pick up a bigass CITY dropping into local space. The Lantian computers at the very least should go, "Um... guys?" over its appearance.

the fifth man
August 11th, 2006, 08:02 PM
Judging from the size of the explosion in the random soldier's view, I don't think the replicator city had quite made it into orbit. I don't recall anyone saying they were in orbit. I could have missed that though.

It sure looked pretty close to the planet though. Atlantis should have picked it up way before it got as close as it did.

GateLadyM
August 11th, 2006, 08:04 PM
Andy Mikita was the WRONG choice to direct this episode since he was the director for "Unnatural Selection". In the hands of a different director, this might have come off a bit more original. Brad Wright (who wrote Unnatural Selection) also needs to have a chat with Carl Binder and tell him to stop dusting off old scripts.

If the writers can't come up with anything more original than rehashing old SG1 stories, then maybe this show shouldn't be on the air (and I can't believe I even said that). The worst part is that Unnatural Selection is one of SG1's best and didn't deserve to be remade.

IcyNeko
August 11th, 2006, 08:06 PM
If the writers can't come up with anything more original than rehashing old SG1 stories, then maybe this show shouldn't be on the air (and I can't believe I even said that).
Oh heck I'll say it. Secret Nazi Weir needs to be spaced out an airlock. I hate her more than Laura Roslin, and that's saying something.

At any rate, the show's sloping downhill faster than gravity can pull it, in terms of story quality. It's like trying to bandage corpses over here. >.>

uknesvuinng
August 11th, 2006, 08:07 PM
Well, maybe not in orbit, but close enough to drop out of hyperspace- and if they can detect Wraith ships dropping out of hyper, they should pick up a bigass CITY dropping into local space. The Lantian computers at the very least should go, "Um... guys?" over its appearance.

Very true. Perhaps the Ancients very stupidly programmed their computers to make no mention of the arrival of other Ancient city-ships.

Sandrock
August 11th, 2006, 08:07 PM
Definetely a great episode. How can people say the Asurans are a bad new enemy? We all know how deadly the replicators were. The human-form replicators were that much worse. Now we basically have human-form replicators again, but they've been around MUCH longer, have much more advanced technology, and there is MILLIONS of them. Definetely a badass new enemy :)

Daniel's_twin
August 11th, 2006, 08:08 PM
Actually, I just thought of a very small oversight. When SG-1's ZPM was going to explode, Carter said that it could have possibly taken out the solar system. In Critical Mass when the Atlantis ZPM was going to go, I was under the impression that it would give a very large explosion, possibly enough to take out the entire planet. Here though, the city just blew up like it was attacked by weapons. Shouldn't overloading not one, not two, but three ZPM's cause a much, much larger explosion then what actually occurred?

Just wondering. :cool:

uknesvuinng
August 11th, 2006, 08:09 PM
Definetely a great episode. How can people say the Asurans are a bad new enemy? We all know how deadly the replicators were. The human-form replicators were that much worse. Now we basically have human-form replicators again, but they've been around MUCH longer, have much more advanced technology, and there is MILLIONS of them. Definetely a badass new enemy :)
Yes, too bad in fact. So bad that deus ex machina will be required to defeat them totally. Why can't the writers stay away from deus ex machina now? Is it addictive?

ShadowMaat
August 11th, 2006, 08:09 PM
Very true. Perhaps the Ancients very stupidly programmed their computers to make no mention of the arrival of other Ancient city-ships.
There ya go- the Ancients so completely wiped all trace of their mistake from the database that included a command to the computers to ignore the Asuran city if it should pop into local space. :P

Ooo, or maybe the reps secretly downloaded a VIRUS into the Atlantis comps! 'cos that would be COMPLETELY original and unexpected! :P

uknesvuinng
August 11th, 2006, 08:10 PM
There ya go- the Ancients so completely wiped all trace of their mistake from the database that included a command to the computers to ignore the Asuran city if it should pop into local space. :P
Apparently widespread idiocy only increases as a race advances...

coolove
August 11th, 2006, 08:12 PM
Actually, I just thought of a very small oversight. When SG-1's ZPM was going to explode, Carter said that it could have possibly taken out the solar system. In Critical Mass when the Atlantis ZPM was going to go, I was under the impression that it would give a very large explosion, possibly enough to take out the entire planet. Here though, the city just blew up like it was attacked by weapons. Shouldn't overloading not one, not two, but three ZPM's cause a much, much larger explosion then what actually occurred?

Just wondering. :cool:

Well all I can say is that when it comes to Sg1 and Sga in situations like these it was a all a dream! :cool: Apparently the TPTB can't grasp the concept of continuity.

uknesvuinng
August 11th, 2006, 08:15 PM
The weakening power of ZPM explosions is the result of the heat death of the universe occurring at a much more rapid rate than currently thought... :P

I think Sam was referring to the explosion of the explosive chemical on the ZPM being fueled by the ZPM's energy, and not just the ZPM itself. I don't think the ZPMs themselves were supposed to be blowing up whenever the overload happened. But it was probably just a continuity oversight.

GateLadyM
August 11th, 2006, 08:16 PM
I for one think it has been the best episode yet in Season Three. I like how the brought back the replicators and I have a question Who created the replicators. The Ancients or Reese. Reese is the dormant female android from the episode Menace.
In the SG1 episode, "Menace", Reese is a young girl/android who created the spider version replicators as toys to amuse herself. Eventually she began to lose contol of them and they destroyed her home planet and escaped into space. In the episode she mentions her father, and the SG1 team assumed he was the scientist who created her.

ShadowMaat
August 11th, 2006, 08:16 PM
Here's another thing: the Ancients designed the Reps to be some kind of superweapon... beyond plot convenience, were they really stupid enough to think that blowing them up was the best way to get rid of them?

And if reprogramming them is so easy that McKay can do it, why not simply reprogram them not to be aggressive, not to replicate, not to do anything? Heck, reprogram the nanites to repel each other so they can never connect up to form Voltron anything.

IcyNeko
August 11th, 2006, 08:18 PM
Or program them to form huge mecha... that can be called upon when the Wraith come...

Like... Stargate: Power Rangers!

ShadowMaat
August 11th, 2006, 08:18 PM
I think Sam was referring to the explosion of the explosive chemical on the ZPM being fueled by the ZPM's energy, and not just the ZPM itself.
So what effect would a triple ZPM-fueled explosion have on the massive cache of weapons/explosives/whatevers that are stored in the city?

verbalkint
August 11th, 2006, 08:18 PM
The shot of Random Soldier #4 standing on deck or whatever and looking up to see the explosion was... okay, but shouldn't Atlantis have noticed a big frackin' cityship in their orbit? Wouldn't this be something communicated to everyone with a radio?

And speaking of radios, couldn't the team have radioed Atlantis once they came out of warp hyperspace? Some added firepower at least might have been nice- as backup in case Rodney's overload plan didn't work.
The whole time since the scene where the Asuran cityship lifted off I kept wondering if they would show any scene of Atlantis's deep space censors alerting Atlantis to their presence but nothing came and it definitely ticked me off. Then the random soldier looks in the sky and sees a huge explosion and doesn't even radio the control tower for a confirmation on what it could be really set me off. How the heck does both the military and civilian leader go off on a mission to a clearly advanced race of beings and only have a regular team with 3 true fighters? In what world is this even close to being reasonable. Can we please redeem Weir's character because as each episode passes its becoming clear her decision making ability is crud.

I've bashed this episode to great ends but it did produce a couple OMG moments. First when the team went through the stargate to Asuras and the shot of the long beautiful hallway, then the shot of the Asuran cityship taking off and jumping to hyperspace, wow!!! The cinematography was awesome this episode.

ShadowMaat
August 11th, 2006, 08:20 PM
Who WAS in command if every senior character was off gallivanting with the replicators? Carson? Zelenka? Lorne? :P

Merlin7
August 11th, 2006, 08:21 PM
The first half of this was great. The second half felt like watching Unnatural Selection all over again. It fell completely flat for me.


I'm just gonna go WORD, and I've never seen Unnatural Selection.

Had they kept it more of a team thing, more probing and more excitement I think it would have rocked. But it became more about Weir and her politics in a sense and...bleh.

Next week is Weir centric so..bleh again for me.

verbalkint
August 11th, 2006, 08:23 PM
You know I would have enjoyed this much more had I never seen SG-1. I loved the flying city, loved seeing it occupied and in action. I even liked the whole destroying Atlantis scenario.

I can't fault the team for what they did but I found some things about these replicators very confusing.

The Ancients designed these replicators, knew everything about their makeup and weaknesses and yet seemed intent on attacking them using conventional weapons? That's odd. given what they're made of, blowing them up seems awfully inefficient. It's hard to believe they waited until after they returned to the Milky Way to develop the disruptor technology.

If the Asurans wanted to destroy Atlantis did they really need to haul the entire city to Atlantis to do it? They could have gotten all the information they needed from the team, and efficiently destroy the city via stargate... they're machines, how hard could it be?

Why didn't Mckay complete the merge before the freeze? Wouldn't that order of events have worked more to their benefit? As for their violent tendencies, for violent peeps they've been awfully quiet for a long time minding their own business. It seems to me, they're no less violent than their creators.

Why would the Ancients create a nanovirus and give it so much time and material to replicate a human form? It took the replicators several years and the right materials to do it? What kind of experiment were they doing and since when did they have time to wait for that development before using it on the Wraith?

As for this ascension bit. By their own story, the Ancients are no less violent than their creators. So why would the Asurans need to eliminate their violent tendencies to ascend when it seems the Ancients hung on to theirs and had no issues.

What really bothered me the most though is Weir's comment about if the Asurans could come after them they would have. That strikes me as a stunningly naive thing to say. They have ZPMs and a flying city... it's not a matter of "could". It's clearly obvious they can.
To build on your point about he Asurans becoming human form. It was said repeatedly in this episode that the Lanteans inserted a base code that prevented the Asurans from ever attacking Lanteans yet they felt the need to go and destroy them with conventional weapons. I swear the more episodes we watch the more we start to realize that the ancients, although clearly more evolved than us, carry the same faults all humanoids do. Furthermore, it seems Lanteans are ridiculously horrible at military strategies, no wonder the wraith kicked their arses.

MasySyma
August 11th, 2006, 08:23 PM
Who WAS in command if every senior character was off gallivanting with the replicators? Carson? Zelenka? Lorne? :P

Carson, of course. He is the only other character capable of operating the chair after all. :) Can't you just see him giving orders in a stern voice? ;)

ladysarah
August 11th, 2006, 08:23 PM
Who WAS in command if every senior character was off gallivanting with the replicators? Carson? Zelenka? Lorne? :P

Could Lorne do any worst then Sheppard? But I wouldn't put Carson in charge of a street market stall.

ShadowMaat
August 11th, 2006, 08:23 PM
First when the team went through the stargate to Asuras and the shot of the long beautiful hallway,
Reminded me of Jack's visit with the Asgard in Fifth Race. ;) But the city shots in general were impressive. And I loved seeing the city take off- that was actually the reason I bothered watching the ep at all, just to see that.

It's a shame that the few Atlantis-exclusive (or mostly exclusive) writers TPTB have aren't banned from watching SG-1. I think things could have gone a lot better without the "homages" to SG-1.

I'm not asking for 110% originality, but for god's sake, can ya lift stuff from sources farther away than your own damn doorstep??

MarshAngel
August 11th, 2006, 08:25 PM
T
How the heck does both the military and civilian leader go off on a mission to a clearly advanced race of beings and only have a regular team with 3 true fighters? In what world is this even close to being reasonable. Can we please redeem Weir's character because as each episode passes its becoming clear her decision making ability is crud.

Amen to that. Let's see, on this mission we have the military leader, the city, leader, and the lead scientist essentially the three most valuable people on this expedition. The three people you would need to destroy Atlantis. Why on god's green Earth would all three be in the same place at once meeting strangers in a galaxy where no planet is safe and ten years worth of SG-1 mission reports, and two years worth of Pegasus Galaxy screwups suggest trusting no one should be rule #1 for every single person.

I would let this go as a nitpick except I'm kind of annoyed right now anyway.

coolove
August 11th, 2006, 08:25 PM
Who WAS in command if every senior character was off gallivanting with the replicators? Carson? Zelenka? Lorne? :P

Wasn't there supposed to be an episode possibly last year's Intruder that was supposed to tell us the direct chain of command? I still think Shep and Weir have issues as to who is leading / making negotiations with whom. At least that's the vibe I got from the episode. I'm trying to to nitpick this episode/show to death but it's quite hard not to.

Merlin7
August 11th, 2006, 08:26 PM
I thought this Epi was awesome! Amazing! Cool! Did I mention awesome already?

Anyway, The CGI was impressive! Kudos to the people who made it!

I have to say I didn't think it was an awesome Epi, BUT...the CGI was very VERY impressive. Watching the other ATLANTIS fly was way cool.

ShadowMaat
August 11th, 2006, 08:28 PM
Actually, I could see Carson and Zelenka in joint control with Lorne banging his head against the wall at their waffling and general jabber. LOL!

Merlin7
August 11th, 2006, 08:28 PM
But you should also remember, Atlantis is a spin-off from SG-1, and it's supposed to be it's own thing. There were concerns brought up when the first spoilers were released that it sounded exactly like Unnatural Selection...it's one thing to bring the replicators into Atlantis. I'm fine with that. And really, the first half of this was so incredibly good. I loved it.

But the second half was just like watching an episode I'd all ready seen, plus, the basics of it were just wrong. It wasn't just Niam trying to help them, there were others, and they very callously decided to just blow them up without letting the program have a try. And would Niam really turn his back on his people, those that felt the same as he did, and just let them be blown up like that? I just...it doesn't work. This is what I feel is Binder's weakness, he writes things that sometimes just don't work. Condemned was the same way, it didn't work.

But, the effects, the characters (Oberoth was fantastic), the acting, the banter, the character moments, I did enjoy those, immensely, but in a show that is a spin-off they should not blantantly copy episodes from the other show.


That's what seems to be happening, doesn't it? Too much of SG1 is now bleeding into SGA and there's no reason for it. ::pouts::

The first half was terrific. I loved it, like you did and for the same reasons.

Shep's mindprobe, and Joe's acting, were FANTASTIC! I was going OMG OMG when he was typing in the code, hit enter then closed his eyes and waited to die. Meep. That's my Shep.

ShadowMaat
August 11th, 2006, 08:29 PM
Wasn't there supposed to be an episode possibly last year's Intruder that was supposed to tell us the direct chain of command? I still think Shep and Weir have issues as to who is leading / making negotiations with whom. At least that's the vibe I got from the episode. I'm trying to to nitpick this episode/show to death but it's quite hard not to.
Probably part of the reason we didn't see what was happening in the city was because TPTB themselves don't know who'd be in charge. ;)

And Weir and Shep definitely have leadership issues.

ladysarah
August 11th, 2006, 08:30 PM
Actually, I could see Carson and Zelenka in joint control with Lorne banging his head against the wall at their waffling and general jabber. LOL!

Poor Lorne, I bet he wonders how he got himself in amongst a bunch of insane people. Ha. Great visual.

cooky
August 11th, 2006, 08:30 PM
The CGI was awsome.

Especially
A glimps of a new class of Ancient warship durring the flashback scene

IcyNeko
August 11th, 2006, 08:33 PM
Asurans: the Stargate Cylons?

God I hope not. At least the Cylons had Sharon.... the Asurans don't really have much.

MarshAngel
August 11th, 2006, 08:34 PM
You know what I find fascinating is that twice now (if we're counting the replicators) the Ancients have been responsible for the creation of artificial intelligence. We've come across no evidence of other artificial intelligence on that high a level and they've been around for tens of millions of years. If nothing else, this indicates to me that at some point they must have realized this wasn't a good idea. And yet they not only created these nanites but allowed them to gain intelligence that wasn't really of any use to their goal to destroy the Wraith.

What the hell kind of experiment goes on so long that they develop human form and intelligence before they decided this is a bad idea? How many years has science fiction argued the ethics of this and we haven't yet developed it yet but these ancient Lantean geniuses... oy.

verbalkint
August 11th, 2006, 08:37 PM
Wasn't there supposed to be an episode possibly last year's Intruder that was supposed to tell us the direct chain of command? I still think Shep and Weir have issues as to who is leading / making negotiations with whom. At least that's the vibe I got from the episode. I'm trying to to nitpick this episode/show to death but it's quite hard not to.
You're right, I don't remember which episode but I do distinctly remember McKay and Caldwell arguing over the chain of command and apparently its in non-military situations then its under the civilian expedition control but in military situations the chain of command of decision making falls with the military presence there. So in this case at the time Weir and Shepperd both left to visit Asuras then either Beckett or Zelenka would have been in charge.

aeromathlete
August 11th, 2006, 08:39 PM
I thought this ep was awesome, until the betrayal plots came up and I started groaning at the TV, like "didn't you try this already, with disastrous consequences?" But nevertheless, even with it being such a ripoff of the SG-1 replicator plots, I really enjoyed it. I find the Asurans to be quite a bit more exciting than the Wraith, so I'll take what I can get here gladly.

L.A. Doyle
August 11th, 2006, 08:39 PM
Overall a nice episode! I loved the flying city. Too cool! In fact, their whole city was pretty amazing. :)

RoryJ
August 11th, 2006, 08:42 PM
Well, :P to the naysayers, because I loved this episode. Yes, I've seen Unnatural Selction. No, I didn't like that episode. I hated it, actually. So Progeny worked in a lot of ways US didn't, at least for me.

I actually like that the Ancients are continually getting darker and crueler. I never liked the idea of them at all in SG-1 and always thought they weren't nearly as good as they seemed, and this is more proof of that.

As for Reese, do we know who created her? Her father could have been an Ancient himself, and then she was able to create her toys fashioned form her own technology. But the Assurans evolved from a nanite, not the "bugs". I'd like to see that connection made later on, because letting it go feels too cheap.

I loved the character interaction. Weir is my favorite character (yes, she is. :D), so I liked seeing her off-world and with the rest of the team. The Shep/McKay banter was great. I was ROTFLMAO when McKay poked Shep in the side of the head and Shep smacked him.

Shep's mindprobe scene was so intense and very well done. My heart was literally beating a mile a minute, even after I figured out what was happening. That whole scene remains the highlight of the episode to me; I felt so sorry for Sheppard when he closed his eyes at the end and waited to die. That boy has issues, but I like it anyway.

I felt so sorry for Niam at the end. I knew something had to go wrong because there was no way they could keep him around. The actor did a good job at making him sympathetic, so it was an "Aw" moment when he realized what was happening to him.

Overall, adored Progeny and I absolutely cannot wait for TRW next week. Season 3 has been phenomenal for me thus far and I am very pleased (wish I could say the same about SG-1 :()

Shep'sSocks
August 11th, 2006, 08:43 PM
Andy Mikita was the WRONG choice to direct this episode since he was the director for "Unnatural Selection". In the hands of a different director, this might have come off a bit more original. Brad Wright (who wrote Unnatural Selection) also needs to have a chat with Carl Binder and tell him to stop dusting off old scripts.

If the writers can't come up with anything more original than rehashing old SG1 stories, then maybe this show shouldn't be on the air (and I can't believe I even said that). The worst part is that Unnatural Selection is one of SG1's best and didn't deserve to be remade.

Haven't seen this episode and am unlikely to until next year but I doubt if Carl is the one dusting off the old episodes.

coolove
August 11th, 2006, 08:44 PM
I thought this ep was awesome, until the betrayal plots came up and I started groaning at the TV, like "didn't you try this already, with disastrous consequences?" But nevertheless, even with it being such a ripoff of the SG-1 replicator plots, I really enjoyed it. I find the Asurans to be quite a bit more exciting than the Wraith, so I'll take what I can get here gladly.

You'd think they would at least glance at the mission reports from Sg1. Hell, Mitchell read all of them and is practically the walking Sg1 encyclopedia.

And I'm finding it rather amusing watching Torri's hair throughout the episode. It goes from flat to curly to flat to curly the entire time.

Verity5
August 11th, 2006, 08:46 PM
Finally, an episode that comes close to the quality of the 1st season's promise. McKay is not the buffoonish butt of some writer's incredibly childish joke, but the more rounded person he was becoming in the original season. The team actually seemed to respect and care for one another. Weir's moral compass remains shaky, or else why try to save only Niam and not the 2 women who also tried to help?

Although the CGI were truly spectacular, I still think that some of the better episodes were with more limited sets (Hot Zone, The Defiant One, Suspicion, etc.). I hope they don't start suffering from George Lucas syndrome.

Mr. Binder's script was spot on with the dialogue , so true to the characters. It would have been nice if the wonderful Mr. Stiers had more to do. The problem with this one was again a weak ending. I think that often his scripts either fizzle out or seem chopped off. Of course, that could be due to budgetary or editing concerns.

I do feel that this was the best directed episode of this season, so far. The blocking and pace were excellent. There was also no excessive scenery chewing.

All in all, it would have been nice if this were the 1st episode shown this season. To me it is much closer to the Stargate Atlantis I fell in love with.

V5

FoolishPleasure
August 11th, 2006, 08:49 PM
Haven't seen this episode and am unlikely to until next year but I doubt if Carl is the one dusting off the old episodes.
Well, its obvious that this episode wasn't a Carl Binder "original". Someone higher up the food chain handed him a good old SG1 script and told him to make lightening strike twice. Gotta feel for the guy.

FoolishPleasure
August 11th, 2006, 08:52 PM
And I'm finding it rather amusing watching Torri's hair throughout the episode. It goes from flat to curly to flat to curly the entire time.
I was more entertained with Teyla magically finding a tube of lip gloss when they were about to make a run for it. Her hair was messy, but danged if those lips didn't have a new coat on. Would have been nice if she had bothered to share her gloss with Weir. *LOL*

smushybird
August 11th, 2006, 08:59 PM
Elizabeth does seem to be quite happy to manipulate, betray, and destroy entire civilizations these days, doesn't she? She seems to have lost perspective. She needs a vacation.

I still don't see her character bringing anything of real value to the Atlantis mission. She has no skills and she's not much of a diplomat. At least in the beginning of the series she seemed to possess some integrity. Now she's lost that and I think any of the other characters, especially Teyla (who is MUCH better with people), could do her job just as well and probably a whole lot better than she's currently doing it. Even Sheppard could do it better, and that's saying something.



Beyond the bad plan, it was an excellent episode. David Ogden Stiers showed his acting prowess (though I must admit, I have problems separating any character he plays from Charles Emerson Winchester III).

Before I saw this ep, I thought I would, too--so I was agreeably surprised to find I could separate him from Charles. He was that good.

uknesvuinng
August 11th, 2006, 09:03 PM
Before I saw this ep, I thought I would, too--so I was agreeably surprised to find I could separate him from Charles. He was that good.

Well, having recently seen the Star Trek TNG ep "Half a Life" in which Stiers plays the alien-of-the-week, it was a bit easier to separate character and actor. Plus he's just an excellent actor anyway.

Descent
August 11th, 2006, 09:06 PM
Boy is Atlantis in for it now, what an outstanding episode this was. Definately a triumphant return of the replicators, not to mention their city was pretty darn cool. These new enemies are really going to add a welcome twist to the series.

10/10 from me! :sheppard:

khd
August 11th, 2006, 09:09 PM
Beautiful episode. A bit confusing with the 'Replicators/Not Replicators' thing. But when Atlantis was destroyed, even though I knew it wasn't real, I still felt that tension.
Great episode. As good as Sateda.

Galilahi
August 11th, 2006, 09:14 PM
I liked this ep.

It was nice to see Weir away from Atlantis.

Oberoth, CREEPY!! and he totally took Weir to the mattress.

The whole Atlantis blowing up thing was amazing. It really could happen that fast. Way to go Shep!!

OMG!! the star drive. INCREDIBLE!! SFX people I'm still kissing your feet.

I felt bad for Niam, but he freaked me out at the end floating in space. When will we get it that AI is never a good idea? Obviously the Asurans are shaping up to be the big bad as opposed to the Wraith.

Also, Atlantis ladies, ask Cauldwell to bring a hairdresser next time he goes home. Up, down, flat, curly...get it together.

smushybird
August 11th, 2006, 09:14 PM
Fans who don't watch SG1, or who have never seen Unnatural Selection, will call this a classic.


Not necessarily. I haven't seen that SG1 ep, tho I've seen some other one with replicators. The only thing that impressed me about Progeny were the special effects. The ep reminded me of Misbegotten, actually--in the sense that the Atlantis team gets involved in a civilization, ends up at odds one way or another as they did with Michael, gains the trust of one person, then betrays the crap out of him. Granted, they got to the point in both eps where they basically had to mow everyone else down in order to survive themselves, but--jeez. And I kept wondering about those two poor girls who were with Liam, the ones who wanted to ascend too. What a downer of an ep. Makes me miss the days when fictional heroes had at least a little nobility in them. :(

I wouldn't call this a classic. I thought Sateda was better. And Aurora was definitely better.

Livi2Jack
August 11th, 2006, 09:19 PM
Awesome CG ! Kudos ! Wow! The best ever. And I liked it when Jack and Sam attacked Anubis' mothership and he blew up Abydos... Sateda was great. But this was stupendous. Nice going ....

Lt.Colonel John Sheppard
August 11th, 2006, 09:22 PM
Very good episode. i'm with a lot of people can't wait for The Return we get to see Jack O'Neill in that episode hopefully he will bring the ancient disruptor weapon with him. I like the whole sheppard staying on atlantis.

FoolishPleasure
August 11th, 2006, 09:49 PM
Very good episode. i'm with a lot of people can't wait for The Return we get to see Jack O'Neill in that episode hopefully he will bring the ancient disruptor weapon with him. I like the whole sheppard staying on atlantis.
Its been a long time since I've seen some of those old replicator episodes on SG1, but I think it was mentioned somewhere that they had countered the effects of the disrupter gun and it wasn't effective anymore. With the SGA Reps even more advanced, it would probably be nothing more than a toy to them.

verbalkint
August 11th, 2006, 09:51 PM
Its been a long time since I've seen some of those old replicator episodes on SG1, but I think it was mentioned somewhere that they had countered the effects of the disrupter gun and it wasn't effective anymore. With the SGA Reps even more advanced, it would probably be nothing more than a toy to them.
The replicators, more specifically the repli-carter, was able to gain access to the base code of the disruptor gun and thats how they were able to build in a silo to stop the disruptor gun. Without gaining access to that information they couldn't come up with a way to neutralize its effect. The dakara weapon was just a more powerful instrument along those lines.

FoolishPleasure
August 11th, 2006, 09:54 PM
The replicators, more specifically the repli-carter, was able to gain access to the base code of the disruptor gun and thats how they were able to build in a silo to stop the disruptor gun. Without gaining access to that information they couldn't come up with a way to neutralize its effect. The dakara weapon was just a more powerful instrument along those lines.
Ahh, thank you! I knew someone would come up with the proper description. :)

funks
August 11th, 2006, 10:27 PM
I don't understand why the ancients didn't do a good job exterminating the asurans. Considering they were microscopic, you would have thought they'd use something like destroy the star in the solar system method to wipe everything out.

It's like trying to kill bacteria with big weapons (which these asurans were basically made from), there's a good chance that one or two will still be around - lol.

Zat
August 11th, 2006, 10:34 PM
I have to say that I have been surprisingly happy with both SG-1 and SG Atlantis this season. Both have had some episodes that I didn't think they were capable of anymore. Last weeks ep was exactly what I had hoped for from Atlantis and the first half of this episode seemed like an actual step up from last week. The rest of this post is dedicated to just how disapointing the last half of this episode was.

Half way through the episode I was ready to give this show the first '10' of the year. I ended up giving it only a 9 because, as a stand alone episode it was very good, but for any fan of SG-1 there was an amazing sense of deja vu. The similarities to Unnatural Selection (a top 10 SG1 ep IMO) have already been discussed, so I wont point them out. It boggles my mind how this show could've been green lighted when the last two acts were Unnatural Selection with the names replaced. What's so bad is that the plot didn't have to go that way. McCay writing a sense of morality into the code was a great plan. We could not be sure that it would work but if it did Atlantis and the team would be saved and we would have gained a powerful allie. If it failed they still could freeze them and blow the ship. But once they blow the ship they are making these guys an enemy. The fact that Weir was all over this idea and that there was no discussion about it makes the team look amazingly stupid. The other thing about the freezing plan that was horrible was that it was counting on Naim (sp?) to betray all of his people - and not just by helping the team escape, but by KILLING ALL HIS PEOPLE. There is no way he would go through with that for just the off chance that the SG Atlantis team could actualy help teach him how to accend.

The other thing that bugged me a bit less was bring up the replicators. These aren't really replicators as we know, and they don't really fit into the preestablished canon of the replicators. The fact that these guys are the new bad guys is kind of lame, simply because it's as if the writers decided that Atlantis needs the replicators as a 'new' enemy even though we have already gone down this road before. This time we wont even be able to call them the replicators...

Franklyn Blaze
August 11th, 2006, 10:36 PM
OK is it me or did the freeze trick with the replicators remind anyone of the borg in ST:TNG?

Aside from that it was well put together, lots of "ooohs" and "ahhhs" and a "crap they lost the chance to get 3 zpms in one go."

RoryJ
August 11th, 2006, 10:36 PM
I have a question: Do you think the Ancients invented the Dakara weapon as a result as what had previously happened with the Asurans, or as a result of what Reese created. I still think Reese was created by an Asuran or an Ancient trying to continue the experiment, but I'm curious as to the original intent of the weapon now that canon has been altered a bit.

Lt.Colonel John Sheppard
August 11th, 2006, 10:44 PM
do you think the anicents might have placed a second weapon like the one they found on dakara in the pegasus galaxy?

NotAscended
August 11th, 2006, 10:49 PM
Good episode, but as others have pointed out Weir was very brash in her initial dealings with the Asurans, and I found that part of the story itself seemed rushed.

Also, am I alone in wondering whether the history Liam showed to Weir is the whole story? It made the Ancients, who TPTB have consistently shown as semi-benevolent, TOO evil. It was just too one-sided. I wonder if the Asuran side of the tale has been edited down over the centuries to one that portrays them only in the best light to themselves.

I also thought this episode set up an interesting parallel with SG1 storylines with the Ancients/Ori. In that case, we also know little or nothing about why the Ancients split off, and most of what we know is coming from the Ori. The Ancients aren't popping down from their ascended plane and saying "Hey, no, this is the way this really went down." In both cases, they have intentionally kept humans from knowing about these big enemies (by shielding the Milky Way from the Ori, by erasing all evidence of the Asurans from the Atlantis database). My question is why did they do this?

Orion's Star
August 11th, 2006, 10:51 PM
Recycled plots? Check. (Thank you, SG-1!)
Recycled characters? Check. (Hi, Fifth!)
Illogical premises? Of course.
Just a typical Atlantis episode.

Why would Weir ever go on a first contact situation? So stupid. Weir and Sheppard should never go on the same mission together. Weir is a terrible diplomat. It was so hard to believe that she actually told Oberoth that they were from a Lantian city/outpost. Like, huh? Way to give away the farm. I thought you were hiding the fact that you were from Atlantis, Weir. If you had to tell Oberoth what you needed the ZPM's for during negotiations, just say you needed them for the Daedalus. Who knows, they may have never even kidnapped the crew if she had never said anything about the city.

It is nice to see that Atlantis expedition is being consistent however. Betray potential allies once, gotta do it all the time. No wonder everybody in the Pegasus Galaxy is trying to kill them, they are all huge jerks.

memnarch
August 11th, 2006, 11:17 PM
I think that Progeny may contain the funniest moment ever on stargate atlantis thus far. I am speaking of course when McKay asks Ronon to move the paralyzed replicator! SOOOO FUNNY! My whole family almost died laughing! Like he can't do it himself! Oh, and when McKay talks about how annoying people are who won't admit they're wrong! Wow! So, onto the story: I think it's interesting how every single major villain in the stargate universe (barring the Goa'uld) stem from the Ancients, supposedly the most advanced and knowledgeable race ever. I think I'm beginning to see why the ascended ancients don't want to interfere, given that they unleashed the Ori, Wraith, and Replicators on the universe (inadvertantly). Still, I would've liked a new enemy a little more than a recycling of the replicators. What's done is done though, and I guess it's worth it if we can see an actual ancient city ship flying! AWESOME! I liked that at least everyone got to do something in this episode. Teyla and Ronon's pre gate interaction was nice, though I'm still hoping for more on both of them this season.

Overall, 3/4 stars

slammed
August 11th, 2006, 11:22 PM
wow, one more enemy, yet we have no worth while allies in pegasus. I loved the start of the episode, but i hated the ending. This episode would of served better as an early two parter.

JanusAncient
August 11th, 2006, 11:33 PM
Have to say, the most idiotic part of the episode was the face they didn't seem to understand, what the word Replicator actually means. They created the city ship, or Asurus, they could create another, all of the Replicator's on the city ship can be replicated. You can't actually kill them, by blowing up their ship anyway. The part I just can't seem to understand is why? Why didn't the Ancient's just eliminate the core program, that way they could have left an incredibly advanced society to look after their children, defend them against the Wraith.

I know this is sacrilege, but the more I think about it, them seemed so bent on wiping out the Asurans because they were as advanced, and because of something that they refused to do, could become a threat one day. Here's the sacrilegious part, could have been the same with the Ori. The more we get to see into their past, the more we realize they really are human.

Hatusu
August 11th, 2006, 11:36 PM
...
What I don't understand is why they give the Ancients credit for building another breed of Replicators when Reese already did it, and we know that the Replicators - being masterminds of galactic travel - could easily traverse galaxies and get to Pegasus. There could have been another way to work that out -- if I'm understanding the story correctly.
...
Let me see if I have it straight. On SG1, some Ancient who later ascended built Reese, who built the Replicators, who made themselves humanoid and started a civilization. On Atlantis, some Ancients built Replicators, then humanoid Replicators who started a civilization....makes sense to me....kind of. :P

Shep'sSocks
August 11th, 2006, 11:41 PM
Recycled plots? Check. (Thank you, SG-1!)
Recycled characters? Check. (Hi, Fifth!)


No, no, it's no recycling, it's a homage ...

phillipjfry
August 11th, 2006, 11:48 PM
The complaints for the SG-1 theme repeat aside. Here is what I see as wrong with this episode.

1. Weir, I know she is tough, but not this devious. At times, she acts like a car salesman. "yes, if you help us, ascension is in your grasp". SG-1 I can understand, military state of mind, blow things up first, ask questions later. But this isn't SG-1. Weir suppose to sane and fair, where is her sense of fairness and justice? She decided to blow up the city ship first before giving Niam a chance.

2. Replicators, When they are all frozen, couldn't Niam just upload to the collective? And when he is being reseted, can't he just close the connection? Since he can already control his violent urges, he has already "evolved" beyond his original programing. The ancients are at times violent, yet they managed to put it aside to ascend.

Over all I wish the episode is structured differently, SGA didn't stick their principles. If they are concerend for primitive humans shooting at them to fire warning shots only, they should drop this betraying bussiness. It's one thing to have a backup plan incase Niam fails, but it's another to preemptivly blow stuff up. The whole story would be more interesting if Niam and friends failed to convience the others and decided to blow up the city themselves. That would be a giant bonus point (self-sacrafice) for ascending.

Descent
August 11th, 2006, 11:55 PM
1. Weir, I know she is tough, but not this devious. At times, she acts like a car salesman. "yes, if you help us, ascension is in your grasp". SG-1 I can understand, military state of mind, blow things up first, ask questions later. But this isn't SG-1. Weir suppose to sane and fair, where is her sense of fairness and justice? She decided to blow up the city ship first before giving Niam a chance.

She didn't want to take the chance of having him in Atlantis and look what happened when she did take that chance, almost got herself killed. :weir40:

They were resetting his programming which meant deleting his ability to supress those angry urges thus...the strangling. Now Niam is one of them again.

coolove
August 12th, 2006, 12:05 AM
Well, all I can say is that at least Atlantis is consistent with one thing: Visiting other places and then screwing up. Gotta love that. ;)

xfkirsten
August 12th, 2006, 12:06 AM
Well, all I can say is that at least Atlantis is consistent with one thing: Visiting other places and then screwing up. Gotta love that. ;)

Hey, it would be boring if they didn't. :p :D

Famous
August 12th, 2006, 12:14 AM
I really liked this episode, one of the best Atlantis episodes to this point. When they started the whole betrayal/Unnatural Selecition plot I didn't really like it, but at least they didn't end it the same way as US, so that was good. I thought it was weird how Niam mentioned that some of the other Asurans had survived and were on the surface, and that they were the ones who reset him, yet at the end of the ep Shep and Weir don't seem that concerned about having Asurans on the surface... but I guess that's for next week, since this is a two part episode, I think...

Quinn Mallory
August 12th, 2006, 12:18 AM
Interesting episode. Good setup for some future plotlines, I'm sure.

Just when you think that the human has redeemed themselves for betraying Fifth in SG-1 by their action in this case, they betrayed Niam again (well, I guess Niam couldn't help but be "reset").

Possible plothole in that the Replicator (whatever their names are now) didn't just use the knowledge gained from the Atlantis team (I'm sure they got the IDC) to attack Atlantis via the gate (of course, they then would be unstoppable).

Nevertheless, it was a good/enjoyable episode.

Kliggins
August 12th, 2006, 12:27 AM
I liked the beginning, but it was too much like Unnatural Selection for me especially with the exact same closeup on the eyes closing shot as in Unnatural Selection. :rolleyes:

As mentioned, the flying city was wonderful. I liked the interaction between the team too.

David Hewlett snapping his fingers all over the place kept making me laugh.

I wish the replicator's appearance had been with a more original story.

Famous
August 12th, 2006, 12:38 AM
Another thought, when Niam was showing Dr. Weir what happened between the Asurans and the Lanteans, I kept thinking that if TPTB do end up getting a third SG show, it should be about the Ancients back before they were ascended, set either when the were in Pegasus or MW, either way. I think that'd be fascinating, personally.

syyid
August 12th, 2006, 12:50 AM
My reaction was that this was the episode where Atlantis jumped the shark. Great setup, horrible ending.
1) We know all about SG1 missions but refuse to think/understand anything they learned
2) Lets recycle villain , worked great for Enterprise?
3) As someone else mentioned screw the extra ZPM's
4) We know you have a massive industrial planet but we'll destroy your ship anyways cuz if there's anything we've learned a cpl of them can regenerate their civilization but millions upon billions of them, who cares?
5) The sheer brutality of the betrayal. Including leaving the other 2 chics behind
6) The fact that the 'nice guy' was as evil as they come, betraying AND killing thousands of his fellow sentient beings for a selfish desire.
7) The episode went south as soon as the hand in forehead scene appeared, before that I thought it was one of the best episodes yet.

Alternative plotline that would have sat much better w/me :P
They could simply have been androids or another allied indigenous lifeform w/an ensuing civil war which crippled the Ancients pre-Wraith war (they must have done something b/w the 3 million years they left the Milky way and the 10-20,000 years ago when they encountered the wraith).

I didn't watch the trailers but if they continue w/stuff like this SG1 might outlive Atlantis

The Engineer
August 12th, 2006, 12:59 AM
Another good episode.

Dan2k
August 12th, 2006, 01:07 AM
Quite a good episode, not the best though. Oh and where had I seen this before? Right, SG-1. Already knew what would happen long before the episode was over. A bit of a disapointment there.

Also I loved the John/McKay scenes, lots of laughs there. Who comes up with that stuff?


A few goofs I saw:

The camera guy was a little too obvious... How on earth could they miss that?
http://img218.imageshack.us/img218/8780/cameraguyef9.jpg


Also a few of those that were "frozen" moved, especially the one you only saw the hand/arm of when they went through a door.

Orion's Star
August 12th, 2006, 01:10 AM
Possible plothole in that the Replicator (whatever their names are now) didn't just use the knowledge gained from the Atlantis team (I'm sure they got the IDC) to attack Atlantis via the gate (of course, they then would be unstoppable).
Not only did they get the IDC to Atlantis, but wouldn't they have gotten the gate address to Earth?

This seems like a huge plot point here, and yet the Atlantis people are just sitting pat, grateful that the billions of Asurans left on their home planet have decided not to come after them...yet (Never mind the floating Niam around Atlantis). Do they not realize that they have given away the location of Earth to a race hellbent on destroying humanity because they are jealous mommy and daddy didn't love them enough?

Weir and Sheppard should be actively coming up with ways to destory these guys. Not going, "Oh well, we survived another close one! Whew!" Which I hope is the case, although I fear that the writers will forget about the whole Earth thing because it will give the Asurans too much power. But what's one more plot point layed along the wayside?

Sauron18
August 12th, 2006, 01:23 AM
This is the best I could do for pictures of Asuras:



http://img212.imageshack.us/img212/3425/asuras1ui6.jpg

http://img212.imageshack.us/img212/7294/asuras2wl2.jpg



Rough, but it's something :cameron:

metabog
August 12th, 2006, 01:49 AM
Sorry for the late response, but I was unable to post... but...

OMFG...

...

Yes, this episode in my opinion clearly shows both that Atlantis rocks and that the writers have some more magic juice in there. This is pure stargate awesomeness. They can't cancel it... it rocks too much. And the fact that Weir was a total b**ch here doesn't mean that Tori sucks. She acted out Weir as an interesting character this way. At least she's not a stock character.

FerCryinOutLoud!
August 12th, 2006, 01:54 AM
Okay first thing's first. What in the world is a whump? Some of you keep mentioning Rodney and Shepperd whumping. What does this mean?

This episode was bitter-sweet for me. It's cool to see how the replicators... or what would be the catalyst for the creation of the replicators came into existence. It's almost like the replicator's ancestry is ancient but foreign at the same time. I think the Asurans are cool in that it's almost as if our new enemy is the ancients in a perverse sense of the idea. But at the same time their still pretty much human form replicators. It can go either way for me. After all these years i thought we finally got rid of the Replicators in season 8. I suppose i was wrong. In SG-1 i liked the replicators but at the same time i was happy to finally be rid of them because just like their numbers, their owverwhelming at times. But at the same time the Asurans seem to be a fresh look at the would be replicators and the ancients as well.

At first glance the Ancient's desimation of the Asuran society invoked a deep anger and revolsion at how the ancients (so-called good guys) could be so evil as to attempt to destroy an entire society. But i suppose in the end they figured they were only destroying machines. Sort of like Terminator, only it's the machine's being destroyed and not the humans. I suppose the ancients were afraid of what they created and the possible threat the Asurans could possibly pose. Kill or be killed.

The city ship was cool, and the grand scale of the Asuran/Ancient city was beautiful and well done. I also think that when the team's minds were being probed is was nice to see in Shepperd's fantasy he stayed behind and died so that everyone could evacuate. It speaks volumes of his character.

Overall i give it an 8/10.

Descent
August 12th, 2006, 02:01 AM
I also think that when the team's minds were being probed is was nice to see in Shepperd's fantasy he stayed behind and died so that everyone could evacuate. It speaks volumes of his character.

Oh wow, didn't really think about that till now. Yeah that was perfect considering the things he said in Sateda, nice! :sheppard:

metabog
August 12th, 2006, 02:49 AM
I still don't get it tho... why did they have to blow them all up when they could've done it Niam's way, making them all non-violent?

AutumnDream
August 12th, 2006, 03:01 AM
...

Usually, even for episodes I don't like, I write a small summary each week of the good and bad points. This was such trash that I can't even be bothered to summarize the fundamental problems with the concepts and writing - among other things. I'm in a state of half-disbelief that this is created by the same people who did Season 1 and that it was allowed to degrade into the rubbish we see today.

Wow.

AscendedWarrior
August 12th, 2006, 03:09 AM
Well, the original plan should have involved using the update before trying to convince Oberoth or anyone. By changing the plan, they made the others aware of a "problem" with Niam, and so they changed his code. The original plan had plenty of time to be attempted before using the freeze. They jumped the gun and it cost them the opportunity for a great alliance.

Thats what i thought to, but i don't think tbtp wants us to have such powerfull allies.

expendable_crewman
August 12th, 2006, 03:38 AM
Well, :P to the naysayers, because I loved this episode. ... snip ...

Shep's mindprobe scene was so intense and very well done. My heart was literally beating a mile a minute, even after I figured out what was happening. That whole scene remains the highlight of the episode to me; I felt so sorry for Sheppard when he closed his eyes at the end and waited to die. That boy has issues, but I like it anyway.

I felt so sorry for Niam at the end. I knew something had to go wrong because there was no way they could keep him around. The actor did a good job at making him sympathetic, so it was an "Aw" moment when he realized what was happening to him.I'm liking this season's guest stars a lot. I'm with you on your first point, too ... I liked the episode. I have a "wait and see" mindset on what the newest evolution of replicator BAs means in the Pegasus. I spoiled myself rotten before the episode aired so I've been waiting for these Asurans and they did not disappoint. I believe that they will give Atlantis a whumping on a grand scale. I can see the IOC having MIs over this mission report. Ori in one galaxy, replicators in the other? Maybe that's how we get O'Neill through the gate in The Return, I don't know. See? I'm really excited about the development.

Based on what the show was telling me, I can't recall ever thinking the Ancients were perfect, although I used to think ascending might have some perks. I'm iffy on that, now, too. Technology and power didn't save the Ancients. The show has said this for a while, so it doesn't surprise me to find some erasure-worthy events in the Ancients' vast span of existence. Their blunders just make them more interesting. Their messes (IMO) make their history in the Pegasus a more "flesh and blood" experience, which is how I like it. They were nice architects, though.

To the ep: Atlantis has a Stargate, the off-world team goes through the Stargate, the members make friends, they go home ... or the members go through the Stargate, they make a mess, they get out of it, preferably temporarily, so there's more seed for future eps, and they go home. I vote for scenario two. But that's me. I guess that's why I had fun watching the show and I'm definitely going to re-watch it.

Sheppard's mindprobe was great ... a sort of backdoor peep into the world that is John Sheppard's Worst Nightmare. As the scene progressed, I had to realize, "Wow, this can't be real" because no one waved good-bye. Lots of running and hey now all defense and automated systems knocked out on the first hit? ... Thank you, PTBs. Now I know what keeps this character up at night: to protect Earth he's forced to operate the city self-destruct-- manually --on (what?) a four-second timer. The man needs a hug.

shockwave
August 12th, 2006, 03:39 AM
Great episode
the replicators is this episode were great, much better then the wraith as enemies
A great episode after another great episode, hope they can keep it up

macktheknife
August 12th, 2006, 04:00 AM
as soon as they Mind Probed the team, imo they deserved to be blown the hell up.

Easter Lily
August 12th, 2006, 04:07 AM
I didn't mind this episode, actually... I agree that the first part of was intensely good and the second time resembled Unnatural Selection somewhat selectively...
:D
I'm not a huge fan of Unnatural Selection... I didn't mind it but it's definitely not in my Top 20 of SG-1 eps... but I liked the Progeny version a lot better... I think the story was better written, the context in which it occurred was much more intriguing and the team interaction here is much more engaging. That scene in which Sheppard's mind was probed was amazing stuff and it really brought to bear the kind of urgency and desperation of living under the shadow of the Wraith. I also think it is linked to the rationale behind Weir and Sheppard's decision to blow up the replicator equivalent. The idea is that they would do anything, whether rightly or wrongly, to protect Atlantis.

The husband worries about where they're going with this arc, as for me, I think we're going to see a major face off between the Wraith and the replicators and it wouldn't surprise me if the team play one baddie off the other

Ouroboros
August 12th, 2006, 04:15 AM
So they're basically using these replicators as a way to make the team fight the ancients and the Wraith at the same time?

I guess having Earth whoop up on only two intergalactic super powers at a time just wasn't enough.:rolleyes:

I got pretty much what I expected here. Lots of pretty FX, enemies acting really, really stupid, and a story that belonged in SG-1 2 years ago. It wasn't horrible like irresistable but it wasn't exactly good either. The final verdict; an ultimately forgettable rehash of old sg-1 material.

I'll probably stop thinking about this episode when I hit the post button here.

Next.

Osiris
August 12th, 2006, 05:31 AM
Truly brilliant episode! The best of Atlantis so far! OMG the visual effects were amazing! Season 3 is looking very very good!

Stevo
August 12th, 2006, 05:41 AM
this defidently has to be one of the best SG:A episode this season, city-ship taking off and flying!!! Aurora-Class were their battleships!!! first replicators!!! atlantis-city-ship exploding!!! all in 1 episode

prion
August 12th, 2006, 05:51 AM
1. Weir, I know she is tough, but not this devious. At times, she acts like a car salesman. "yes, if you help us, ascension is in your grasp". SG-1 I can understand, military state of mind, blow things up first, ask questions later. But this isn't SG-1. Weir suppose to sane and fair, where is her sense of fairness and justice? She decided to blow up the city ship first before giving Niam a chance.

Actually, Ronon was the first one to suggest destroying the city, and considering the gravity of the situation, it made sense. While you could sit and wait for the good replicator guy to kick into action, there was no guarantee and the replicator cityship was VERY close to Atlantis.

What should have been done was at least have a little more discussion on why they're going to blow the city, but after the viciousness of the mindprobe (and everything else they know about the replicators) put the team into a situation of 'us or them'. They did give the good replicator a chance to flee with him, and I suspsect if he didn't see the logic of their ways, he woudln't have let it happen.

Reaceania
August 12th, 2006, 06:19 AM
Loved this episode.
Usually when I'm looking forward to an episode as much as I've been anticipating this one I get disappointed when I actually see it. Not this time around. Thankyou everybody!
I really liked the story and the way it was written. Kudos to Carl Binder! He really does know how to write for Weir, which I don't always think that all the writers do (maybe they just get scared to write her stuff ... I don't know).
It felt more balanced in terms of the main team (which in my mind includes Weir). Shame there was no Beckett but I'm sure we'll get lots of him next week. And oooo next week. *jumps up and down in anticipation of next weeks ep (I should really learn not to do that)*

Thoroughly enjoyed this ep. This episode and last weeks. Top stuff!!

p.s. Weir should off-world more often. Thank you. :)

ShadowMaat
August 12th, 2006, 06:32 AM
My memory is absolute rubbish when it comes to a lot of things- I forget names and faces, I can re-read books easily because after a while I forget the stories, I can't remember vast tracts of my childhood... but I am absolutely AMAZED that I appear to be one of the few people who remembers that Reese did not spontaneously generate out of thin air and that she was, in fact, created. I may not remember the exact dialogue, but I know there was a flashback to her father and that Reese talked about him creating her and yet I look at this thread and see a lot of people talking about how Reese created the replicators. Um. She didn't- her father did. Or at least Dad created the replicator factory in the form of Reese and programmed her to "go forth and replicate" (see? I remember that, too). Reese may have made all the other reps, but someone made HER first and programmed her to be the way she was. I should think that would be an important consideration. Although given all the history that came afterwards I'm now amazed that Jack was able to take her out with a single bullet. So maybe she was more of a robotic factory than an actual replicator.

Anyway, back to the ep. What have the Replicators learned about us?

* The gate address to Atlantis
* The gate address to Earth
* The self-destruct codes for Atlantis

That right there should make EVERYONE very nervous. What happens if the reps decide to bypass Atlantis for the time being and go blow up Earth? Then they could come back to destroy Atlantis knowing that they've cut off the expedition's main escape route.

Given Earth's history with the reps, a few things should have been obvious- like the fact that even ONE BLOCK surviving can mean the recreation of the whole race- and its only more proof of Team Atlantis's staggering stupidity that they never thought about that... and seem to have dismissed the thousands/millions of other replicators back on the homeworld. "Oh, maybe we scared them away." Are they honestly that stupid? I can see saying that without really meaning it, but I'd be taking massive precautions just in case- beyond having Rodney look through the database.

Of course, for all of Team Atlantis's stupidity, the reps weren't that much smarter. As I suggested earlier- why didn't they create replicator versions of the team and send them back through the gate to activate the self-destruct? That would be the quickest, most efficient method of destroying the city. Launching Asura and having it go gunning for Atlantis made for some nice CGI and gave the team an opportunity to escape, but plan-wise it leaves a lot to be desired, especially if we're supposed to believe that the reps have spent the past 10,000 years or so puddling around their homeworld, not venturing forth, not replicating beyond their planet's borders and basically ignoring the rest of the universe. Moving the city consumes too much time and energy/resources to be practical and however vengeful the reps might be, they should still be a little more efficient.

If the reps can communcate with each other, why wasn't Fifth stopped earlier? Especially if Oberoth had reason to be wary of him? I suppose it'll be chalked up to arrogance, but if I were Oberoth I would have kept a very tight rein on Fifth and his Wonder Twins and I certainly wouldn't have allowed some underling to give our prisoners access to our base code.

Tell me again why Team Atlantis opted to kill all the reps instead of trying to "upgrade" them via Fifth? And WHY didn't that upgrade happen on its own? And if Fifth was still in "range" of the homeworld reps, why wasn't HIS upgrade the dominant one instead of the reset code sent to him? There were shades of Avenger 2.0 in all of this with the virus infecting one DHD affecting them all. Isn't that how it SHOULD have gone? But with better results? I can't imagine McKay NOT knowing about that and not finding a million ways to have improved upon Felger's botched job. If the Ancients created the DHDs and the reps, it shouldn't have been two hard to modify the DHD virus thing to work on reps instead. Or even doing something similar, as happened in an earlier ep of SG-1 (I think).

And then there are the Ancients. What was the point of allowing the reps to evolve into human form? They're supposed to be a WEAPON, right? So... you make some bullets made out of replicators and fire them at the wraith and the bullets enter the wraith and start taking over. You want wider dispersal? Have the infected wraith go back to their ships to spread the infection. Still wider dispersal? Come up with a way to gas them, much as was the original plan with Carson's retrovirus.

Still not good enough? Fine, shoot the replicator bits at the hiveships and have them programmed to dissolve the biomech component of the ships, then sit back and watch.

I'm a stupid little monkey and even I can come up with better ideas than the Ancients. That is unbelieveably sad.

Scyld
August 12th, 2006, 06:33 AM
Its ironic because there isn't 1 noted instance of that type of aggression the lanteans shown against the Asurans while they were battling the wraith. Maybe they should have used that method more on wraith hive ships and things would have turned out differently.

Is it just me or does the Ancients seem no better than anyone else?

Well, the ancients *aren't* any better than anyone else. They're physiologically and technologically superior to modern humans, but they're still basically human, and fully capable of making mistakes, going wrong, going bad, falling prey to their own pride, and so on.

AlphaBlu
August 12th, 2006, 06:37 AM
That episode rules!

It was just incredible.

If the Return is as good as this, we're in for a ride!


Another thing is how can McKay rewire code in a couple of hours tops yet the Asurans couldn't do it in thousands of years.

Because the Asurans weren't allowed to fiddle with their base code. You were watching the same show as the rest of us right?


Finally, I hope they realize that since Niam (sp?) is not an organic life form that he doesn't need oxygen to survive and so he is just floating in space gazing at Atlantis?

I've seen this criticism before. I hardly think that Niam living or dying as he was sucked into space was one of their concerns. More likely... in fact... definately, their main and only concern was saving Weir's life.

BYE

FoolishPleasure
August 12th, 2006, 06:51 AM
My reaction was that this was the episode where Atlantis jumped the shark. Great setup, horrible ending.

I didn't watch the trailers but if they continue w/stuff like this SG1 might outlive Atlantis
I was thinking the same thing. In last night's SG1 episode, "Uninvited" we saw LOTS of character building and bonding, with the monster-on-the-loose actually the "B" plot. It was very good writing overall. Then we get this SGA episode which is just a rehash of an old SG1 episode.

If TPTB can't do anything more original with Atlantis than redo old SG1 episodes, then what is the point of even doing the show? SG1 has reinvented itself and continues with good writing and new story arcs, but SGA can't seem to come up with anything totally original to its setting. Three years and I'm still waiting to see exploration of Atlantis. :rolleyes:

aaobuttons
August 12th, 2006, 07:04 AM
This episode was amazing!

I Loved the team dynamic in this one, everyone got a chance to shine and Weir got to come along and shine too!

I unfortunatly was spoiled to the replicator twist, but my husband wasn't and he was blown away when he saw that hand coming out of Shep's head! The scene in Shep's head was great in itself, the destruction of Atlantis, just how little time they would actually have, Shep's sacrifice. I also loved that in Shep's head, he see's Rodney as trying to be heroic with his whole 'flip the coin' bit.

I loved the banter between Shep and Rodney, and I loved Protective!Rodney towards Elizabeth. I loved the Elizabeth and Teyla interactions, we so rarely see them together.

I wasn't bothered by the Unnatural Selection similarities, because they were so different. Weir took Niam with them, that shows a big difference between a civilian's perspective and a military perspective like O'Neill's. The fact that Niam didn't just want to save himself like 5th did, but help change his people as a whole was interesting too.

OH, and the special effects were amazing! I've always wanted to see a flying Atlantis and it was beautiful! Way to go, and I hope we see more of it!!

derrickh
August 12th, 2006, 07:48 AM
This is another in a long line of episodes that prove Weir has no business being in charge of Atlantis. She's such a bad leader that it borders on criminal to even have her on base. For someone who is supposed to be an incredible negotiator and diplomat she makes stupid mistakes when dealing with these people. Atlantis is supposed to be a secret, but she volunterrs the info that it's still around. And then backed it up by saying they barely have enough power to defend themselves so please give us a ZPM. Thats idiotic. She doesnt know these people, and they already act like they're hiding something. Why is she trustng them with this information? The one bargaining chip she had was information and she gave it up for nothing.

Of course, they use it against her and proceed to head to Atlantis. So what does Weir do to cover up her bumblings? She destroys the city. Killing thousands if not hundreds of thousands of sentient beings. There were alternatives on the table, but instead of waiting 3 minutes and possibly saving all of those lives and gaining an ally, she commits mass murder. Good job Weir. Once again you've proven that you are a war criminal.

D

MarshAngel
August 12th, 2006, 07:48 AM
Because the Asurans weren't allowed to fiddle with their base code. You were watching the same show as the rest of us right?


That might be the explanation they gave in the show but it doesn't sound any less like BS because they said so. The replicators in the milky way are basically a defiance of their original intention. They knew everything about their own makeup, hence their ability to manipulate it. If the Asurans couldn't modify their own programming why couldn't they write an entirely different one? They seem to be able to do everything else the Ancients did so clear it's not a matter of not knowing how. They've also had 10,000 years to find someone to do this if they wanted to. McKay isn't the only braniac in two galaxies.

And speaking of Mckay... at the end of the episode he was just surfing through the database looking for specific information... certainly puts some doubt on the theory that they can't just find whatever they want. I guess they only find relevant facts when it serves the plot and all those other scientists are just sitting around twiddling their thumbs waiting for something to happen so they can find something in the database worth looking into :rolleyes:

Wilson3Girl
August 12th, 2006, 07:54 AM
I loved the John/McKay scenes, lots of laughs there. Who comes up with that stuff?

I agree. Their interaction is always the highpoint of each episode for me.
I loved it when Rodney, while trying to see if he was really 'awake', walked over to John and flicked him on the head. John's expression and his retaliation by whacking Rodney on the leg was very funny, but Elizabeth's expression as she watched the two of them was even funnier imho. :)


Wilson3Girl

uknesvuinng
August 12th, 2006, 07:55 AM
I don't recall the Asurans having any desire to eliminate humans entirely. They just wanted to destroy the city of Atlantis as a "revenge" against the Ancients for being absolute morons. As far as I know, they couldn't care less about Earth.

Also, I would think humans, being engineered to be a rebirth of the Ancients, would qualify under the same Asimovian programming that prevented the Asurans from harming the Ancients.

ladysarah
August 12th, 2006, 07:56 AM
TI guess they only find relevant facts when it serves the plot and all those other scientists are just sitting around twiddling their thumbs waiting for something to happen so they can find something in the database worth looking into :rolleyes:

Oh hush now, thinking is bad. No thinking here, just enjoy the pretties, oooh look, Teyla has shiny new lip shine.

All that stuff about logic and convenient plot lines and stupid decisions, stop it ;)

Keep to the pretties.

Dammitt, bashes head against table...cannot do it...reality dysfunction...meltdown...

ShadowMaat
August 12th, 2006, 08:08 AM
Hats- the reason Oberoth sounds Shakespearean is because Oberon was the king of the faeries in Midsummer Night's Dream. :) The names were a bit sticky this time around, what with the Oberoth/Oberon thing and the Niam/Nian confusion.

Pogo01
August 12th, 2006, 08:11 AM
I havent seen the show yet but the summary says they were abundant in ZPMs and could make them. Which also suggests that Atlantis can make them too then right? Also did Atlantis ever take one from the Asurans?

AGateFan
August 12th, 2006, 08:11 AM
So the big plan was to update the base code for one of the replicators and then tell him they were going to kill all his brothers and sisters and offer him a chance to come with them... after they murdered all his friends.

Yeah, I can't believe THAT didnt work.

And what about the two female replicators that were trying to help too, how come they didnt get the same offer?

aaobuttons
August 12th, 2006, 08:21 AM
And what about the two female replicators that were trying to help too, how come they didnt get the same offer?

Well they probably didn't think they had enough time to search the city for them, and i have a feeling they wouldn't have tried too hard to find Niam either. It seemed like Weir _wanted_ to bring Niam along, but her team and Atlantis were her first priority... as it should be.

AGateFan
August 12th, 2006, 08:37 AM
You know I would have enjoyed this much more had I never seen SG-1. I loved the flying city, loved seeing it occupied and in action. I even liked the whole destroying Atlantis scenario.

I can't fault the team for what they did but I found some things about these replicators very confusing.

The Ancients designed these replicators, knew everything about their makeup and weaknesses and yet seemed intent on attacking them using conventional weapons? That's odd. given what they're made of, blowing them up seems awfully inefficient. It's hard to believe they waited until after they returned to the Milky Way to develop the disruptor technology.

If the Asurans wanted to destroy Atlantis did they really need to haul the entire city to Atlantis to do it? They could have gotten all the information they needed from the team, and efficiently destroy the city via stargate... they're machines, how hard could it be?

Why didn't Mckay complete the merge before the freeze? Wouldn't that order of events have worked more to their benefit? As for their violent tendencies, for violent peeps they've been awfully quiet for a long time minding their own business. It seems to me, they're no less violent than their creators.

Why would the Ancients create a nanovirus and give it so much time and material to replicate a human form? It took the replicators several years and the right materials to do it? What kind of experiment were they doing and since when did they have time to wait for that development before using it on the Wraith?

As for this ascension bit. By their own story, the Ancients are no less violent than their creators. So why would the Asurans need to eliminate their violent tendencies to ascend when it seems the Ancients hung on to theirs and had no issues.

What really bothered me the most though is Weir's comment about if the Asurans could come after them they would have. That strikes me as a stunningly naive thing to say. They have ZPMs and a flying city... it's not a matter of "could". It's clearly obvious they can.
I was thinking that. Reese was able to shut down all of her replicators you would have thought the Ancients would have added a "Kill code" in along with that "violence code" (although they did not seem particularly violent to me). Then they could have just Shut them all down and then used disruptors or whatever to clean up the mess.

BTW did they ever mention why the experiment did not work? Give those guys guns and make them face down the wraith, its not like they can have their life force sucked out... how come that didnt work? They never say.

Also, they just SAY they are violent but dont SHOW it except for justifiable anger so it was kind of hard to actually dislike the enemy. Thus the only ones you end up disliking are the people doing the backstabing IE AR-1.

kymeric
August 12th, 2006, 08:40 AM
We've come across no evidence of other artificial intelligence on that high a level and they've been around for tens of millions of years.

You forget sg1's season 4 episode entitled ENTITY.

Oh and awesome eppy. Asuran cities look like Courescant. Atlantis taking off and flying in hyperspace + Blowing up twice = 5 holy $#[email protected] moments.

LiquidBlue
August 12th, 2006, 09:01 AM
First of all, I liked this episode. It was worth an hour of my time. I have no problem with Replicator-like beings in Pegasus, after all someone created Reese. And it is worth noting that the replicator created by Reese had one very specific objective, Replicate at all costs. The Asurans have different directives, and will behave very differently than the SG1 replicators.

However...

I am confused by the very ending. What happened? Appanarently, the Asurans remaining behind on their planent reset Liam's programming. So why did he freak out? I mean, before McKay changed his programming he did act that way. Were the other Asurans some how controling him?

Furthermore, how could the other Asurans reset him? According to the episode they could change their own programing. How could they undo the changes that Dr. McKay made.

Anyway, passing over my confusion, let me rant a little now.

What stupidity! They destroy hundreds of thousands or millions of sentient beings to save the few hundreds on Atlantis. From a pure numbers stand point that doesn't seem moral.

Now consider that many or most of those people are sympathetic. Whose greatest ambition is to live at peace and find ascension. Now consider that they are acting largely out of innante aggression, which can be expunged. Now consider that the city destroyed represents only a fraction of the race, and so the destruction of the city will only delay the attack.

So what is a better plan?

Let Liam try to convince the now less innately aggressive Asurans not to destroy Atlantis, or at least spare its inhabitants. If that fails, then do the freezing trick.

They now have a couple of options:

-Radio Atlantis and order an evacuation.
-Steal the ZPMs.
-Reprogram the Asurans further.
-etc.

Okay, that last one is a cop out. My point is, if you are only delaying the inevitable attack, why make enemies out the Asurans in the process?, why commit mass murder?

Oh well, At least now there is debris to prove that Atlantis was destroyed.

As the episode ended, and we saw Liam floating in space, I almost expected to see him ascend.

bonadolq
August 12th, 2006, 09:11 AM
Given that Reese from Menace said her father lef her, I figured I'd ask the inevitable question, "Who do you think was Reese's Creator; Janus, Moros/Merlin, or another Alterran/Ancient?"

Some suporting data:

1.Time ship in the Milky Way: Good to be King

2. Moros/Merlin and Janus returning to the Milky Way and creating various technologies over the ages (the bloodstone, timeship,etc.)

Apophis87
August 12th, 2006, 09:19 AM
First of all, I'm dissapointed by the fact that so many people have totally written off this episode simply because of similarities to Unnatural Selection. Obviously, any episode that introduces new Replicators is going to be similar to previous episodes about the Replicators. That said, I will now go into my rant about Progeny.

Ok, as I watched this episode the first time, I was amazed. It was awesome! The scene where they looked out the window, and saw an Atlantis style city, surrounded and DWARFED by the rest of the Asurans' city, was unbelievable. Niam was a cool character, and Oberoth was very well played by the guy from MASH (wasn't he in a ST:TNG episode too?). The special effects were incredible, the fact that we got to see an Ancient City-Ship fly was ridiculously cool. (Was I the only one who thought it looked a little bit like a Hatak from the bottom?) I liked the twist of them seemingly escaping, going back to Atlantis, then finding 15 Wraith Hive Ships coming out of nowhere and attacking, and having to evacuate and self destruct, only to find out it was just an illusion caused by the Asuran mind probe. For people who hadn't read about this episode, seeing Oberoth's hand in Sheppard's head must have been a great scene of realization, even before Rodney said they were Replicators. I loved Niam trying to befriend them and help them escape, knowing he was risking his life in doing so, because he disagreed with Oberoth and wanted to ascend. The plan to rewrite the code was nice, and it really seemed like they were going to get a powerful new ally, or at the very least do some good.

But, then there was the last 10 minutes of the episode, and it seemed like they were like "Oh crap! We have a great episode! Quick! Lets ruin it!". As has been said before, DON'T STARGATE PERSONEL EVER LEARN!!!!! SG1 betrayed Fifth, and he got pissed off and became their enemy. The Ancients betrayed the Asurans, and they got pissed off and became their enemy. Now the Atlantis team (AT1?) betrays the Asurans, and what a surprise, now they're pissed and they've become Atlantis's enemies. Couldn't they have just let Niam try to link with the others and give them the changed code? And then kept the option of freezing them and blowing up the city in case Niam's plan didn't work? And why didn't Niam know that the others would find out he had betrayed them, and that they could reset him?

If you want to make sure Oberoth doesn't destroy Atlantis, instead of blowing up the city and forcing Niam to become a traitor to his people, JUST SABOTAGE THE WEAPON CONTROLLS!!!! I assume the weapons would have been drones controlled by the chair, as with all Ancient cities. So, take all but 1 of the ZPMs (so that the shield wouldn't fall while you're still in the city), perhaps sabotage the chair in some way if you can, and THEN leave. Let Niam spread the changed code to the others, and once they're friendly, you go back, give them back their ZPMs, they take you back to Asura, maybe give you a spare ZPM or two, and now you have new, powerful allies. But no, TPTB wanted a new recurring enemy, and they were willing to ruin a great episode to get it.

Of course, these aren't the only mistakes in Progeny. WHY THE HELL would the Ancients, engaged in a desperate war against an enemy that greatly outnumbers them, take a whole FLEET away from that war, to go destroy a civilization they created, when they could have easily just changed the damn code, and, while the Asurans wouldn't have been the weapon they had invisioned, they could at least be powerful reinforcements who could help fight the Wraith, with the advantage of not being susceptible to Wraith feeding. Heck, even if the code change made them so peaceful that they'd be useless in battle, they could at least be used to quickly build ships, and help crew those ships (in roles where they wouldn't have to participate in fighting). That way, the huge Wraith advantage of numbers would be negated. Imagine, ships built with the speed and efficiency of Replicators, crewed by hundreds of Datas, with Ancients as the Captains and tactical officers. Why the hell did the Ancients think it was a better idea to use their precious warships to just destroy the Asurans? Ineffectively, I might add. Also, McKay and Sheppard bickering about time estimates got really annoying after a while. (Although Rodney poking Sheppard to see if he was real, then getting slapped by an annoyed Sheppard was pretty funny)

Honestly, after watching the end of Progeny, I actually enjoyed the SG1 episode, because it was fairly entertaining and at least it didn't make you want to kill somebody in frustration after you watched it. After the 2nd viewing of the SG1 episode, I watched Progeny again up untill the last 10 minutes, and then I turned it off and went to bed.

verbalkint
August 12th, 2006, 09:48 AM
My memory is absolute rubbish when it comes to a lot of things- I forget names and faces, I can re-read books easily because after a while I forget the stories, I can't remember vast tracts of my childhood... but I am absolutely AMAZED that I appear to be one of the few people who remembers that Reese did not spontaneously generate out of thin air and that she was, in fact, created. I may not remember the exact dialogue, but I know there was a flashback to her father and that Reese talked about him creating her and yet I look at this thread and see a lot of people talking about how Reese created the replicators. Um. She didn't- her father did. Or at least Dad created the replicator factory in the form of Reese and programmed her to "go forth and replicate" (see? I remember that, too). Reese may have made all the other reps, but someone made HER first and programmed her to be the way she was. I should think that would be an important consideration. Although given all the history that came afterwards I'm now amazed that Jack was able to take her out with a single bullet. So maybe she was more of a robotic factory than an actual replicator.

Anyway, back to the ep. What have the Replicators learned about us?

* The gate address to Atlantis
* The gate address to Earth
* The self-destruct codes for Atlantis

That right there should make EVERYONE very nervous. What happens if the reps decide to bypass Atlantis for the time being and go blow up Earth? Then they could come back to destroy Atlantis knowing that they've cut off the expedition's main escape route.

Given Earth's history with the reps, a few things should have been obvious- like the fact that even ONE BLOCK surviving can mean the recreation of the whole race- and its only more proof of Team Atlantis's staggering stupidity that they never thought about that... and seem to have dismissed the thousands/millions of other replicators back on the homeworld. "Oh, maybe we scared them away." Are they honestly that stupid? I can see saying that without really meaning it, but I'd be taking massive precautions just in case- beyond having Rodney look through the database.

Of course, for all of Team Atlantis's stupidity, the reps weren't that much smarter. As I suggested earlier- why didn't they create replicator versions of the team and send them back through the gate to activate the self-destruct? That would be the quickest, most efficient method of destroying the city. Launching Asura and having it go gunning for Atlantis made for some nice CGI and gave the team an opportunity to escape, but plan-wise it leaves a lot to be desired, especially if we're supposed to believe that the reps have spent the past 10,000 years or so puddling around their homeworld, not venturing forth, not replicating beyond their planet's borders and basically ignoring the rest of the universe. Moving the city consumes too much time and energy/resources to be practical and however vengeful the reps might be, they should still be a little more efficient.

If the reps can communcate with each other, why wasn't Fifth stopped earlier? Especially if Oberoth had reason to be wary of him? I suppose it'll be chalked up to arrogance, but if I were Oberoth I would have kept a very tight rein on Fifth and his Wonder Twins and I certainly wouldn't have allowed some underling to give our prisoners access to our base code.

Tell me again why Team Atlantis opted to kill all the reps instead of trying to "upgrade" them via Fifth? And WHY didn't that upgrade happen on its own? And if Fifth was still in "range" of the homeworld reps, why wasn't HIS upgrade the dominant one instead of the reset code sent to him? There were shades of Avenger 2.0 in all of this with the virus infecting one DHD affecting them all. Isn't that how it SHOULD have gone? But with better results? I can't imagine McKay NOT knowing about that and not finding a million ways to have improved upon Felger's botched job. If the Ancients created the DHDs and the reps, it shouldn't have been two hard to modify the DHD virus thing to work on reps instead. Or even doing something similar, as happened in an earlier ep of SG-1 (I think).

And then there are the Ancients. What was the point of allowing the reps to evolve into human form? They're supposed to be a WEAPON, right? So... you make some bullets made out of replicators and fire them at the wraith and the bullets enter the wraith and start taking over. You want wider dispersal? Have the infected wraith go back to their ships to spread the infection. Still wider dispersal? Come up with a way to gas them, much as was the original plan with Carson's retrovirus.

Still not good enough? Fine, shoot the replicator bits at the hiveships and have them programmed to dissolve the biomech component of the ships, then sit back and watch.

I'm a stupid little monkey and even I can come up with better ideas than the Ancients. That is unbelieveably sad.
Despite some opinion not everybody out there is targeting earth in another galaxy. Oberoth or Niam made the comment that they were going to destroy Atlantis and that he was going to kill the expedition team. Oberoth had a conversation with Dr. Weir about occassionally having guests for a few days so obviously they don't harbor ill will towards all of humanity.

I think that statement that Weir made about the Asurans feeling like humans are the favored "child" of the ancients leads many of us to inaccurately believe the Asurans are out to kill all humanity although dialogue in that very same 1 on 1 meeting between Oberoth and Weir completely disputes such theory. Heck, if Weir never mentioned the team was staying at Atlantis they would have never detained them in the first place.

Final thought is can we please stop with the arrogance that everybody is out to get earth. The Asurans haven't attacked any of the human inhabited worlds in the pegasys which is easily accessible and they already had those worlds stargate addresses and locations for thousands of years, nor have they attacked the wraith which was their original programming code so all of a sudden we as viewers are supposed to believe that they'd travel to an entirely different galaxy and try to wipe out a race of beings they never even knew existed and to this day have never done anything to them? Come on, anyone with an IQ above room temperature shouldn't buy it Stargate universe or not!

Pocus
August 12th, 2006, 09:52 AM
I did like this episode. It had its flaws and weak points, but I can get over them. I did see Unnatural Selection but can't seem to recall the details, so the similarities don't bother me.

I like the idea of the Replicators being in the Pegasus Galaxy. I am hoping we will get a revised concept of them. The SG1 replicators seemed to be purely mechanical beings, even the human form ones. These Replicators have built and maintained a society for thousands of years. Some of them even have the desire to Ascend. The first time I saw any emotion from any of them was when Weir mentioned Ascension and Niam seemed surprised then excited that she knew about it. They had motivation for revenge against the Atlantians and now against the humans in Atlantis.

The motivation for revenge against Weir and group, IMO, should not exist though. I am severely disappointed that uploading the anti-aggressive programing was not even tried. I do understand the need for the urgency to protect Atlantis, but I am still confused as to how long it would have taken to enact McKay's new code. Somehow the science of everything got all muddled in my head. :( I will have to wait until the transcripts come out and read it to get it straight in my brain.

I loved the interaction between Sheppard and McKay (snarky) and between Teyla and Weir (supportive). Ronon had a good supporting role. The interaction between Sheppard and Weir seemed to me to be a little off. They almost seemed to be avoiding each other.

The CGI was great. Loved the flying City shots. Loved the different view out of the windows of a huge city. Loved seeing what Atlantis would look like as a functioning city filled with people going about their day.

All in all I thought it was a good episode. Not great, just good. My husband did not like it and says he is almost done with Atlantis. He is tired of them making mistakes and being put in, as he terms them, "No win" situations and then having to deal with the situation for the next season and a half. He even erased the episode off the DVR as soon as it was over. :( .

NotAscended
August 12th, 2006, 10:13 AM
Just rewatched the episode this morning, and I am still a bit baffled by how the plot played out. TPTB have left a lot of holes in the story (like why would the Asurans want to kill the human expedition, Weir's motivation through most of the episode, and the team not seeming to remember why SG1 had so much trouble with human replicators in the first place). For now, I'm willing to wait for the next few episodes to see if the story will make more sense after seeing those, but didn't think this episode did a great job of explaining the Asurans or the SGA teams actions.

The parts worth rewatching: the interactions among the team and the return of our hero John Sheppard. I was one of those fans disappointed by Sheppard in a lot of S2, but I loved the sequence in which the Asuran probed John's mind. He was willing to sacrifice himself for his team and to protect Earth. Knowing that's John's deepest motivation really redeemed him for me.

And he even saw Rodney as someone willing to sacrifice himself as well. That little tidbit of insight just makes all the McKay/Sheppard banter and teasing in their everyday interactions that much more enjoyable.

vaberella
August 12th, 2006, 10:14 AM
I don't think the motivation was to destroy Weir and her people, I actually think they might have let them go if given the chance, unfortunately they were 'killed' before that. I think the Asurans just wanted the sistership eliminated since it's standing rememberance of their own betrayal at the hand of the Ancients---but the humans there are of less importance to them. If they cared so much about humans they would have killed all the other humans on earth, so Weir's estimation on the feelings of the Asurans--from what I can tell were incorrect or a bit self-righteous.

I don't look at the Asurans as so much bad guys, just really abused. I personally have not been fond of the Ancients, only because no single group could be so perfect---even *insert diety* have been knwon through history to be merciless as well as benign. So the ancients most probably have a dark side or misguided side to cause multitudes of harm.

In all this I felt more bad for the Asurans and I'm feeling a bit peeved at the Weir and the Atlantis team for their actions.
--------------------------------------------------

I saw this after I had already posted, great points, gave a green for this!


Despite some opinion not everybody out there is targeting earth in another galaxy. Oberoth or Niam made the comment that they were going to destroy Atlantis and that he was going to kill the expedition team. Oberoth had a conversation with Dr. Weir about occassionally having guests for a few days so obviously they don't harbor ill will towards all of humanity.

I think that statement that Weir made about the Asurans feeling like humans are the favored "child" of the ancients leads many of us to inaccurately believe the Asurans are out to kill all humanity although dialogue in that very same 1 on 1 meeting between Oberoth and Weir completely disputes such theory. Heck, if Weir never mentioned the team was staying at Atlantis they would have never detained them in the first place.

Final thought is can we please stop with the arrogance that everybody is out to get earth. The Asurans haven't attacked any of the human inhabited worlds in the pegasys which is easily accessible and they already had those worlds stargate addresses and locations for thousands of years, nor have they attacked the wraith which was their original programming code so all of a sudden we as viewers are supposed to believe that they'd travel to an entirely different galaxy and try to wipe out a race of beings they never even knew existed and to this day have never done anything to them? Come on, anyone with an IQ above room temperature shouldn't buy it Stargate universe or not!

mindfire
August 12th, 2006, 10:18 AM
Given that Reese from Menace said her father lef her, I figured I'd ask the inevitable question, "Who do you think was Reese's Creator; Janus, Moros/Merlin, or another Alterran/Ancient?"

Some suporting data:

1.Time ship in the Milky Way: Good to be King

2. Moros/Merlin and Janus returning to the Milky Way and creating various technologies over the ages (the bloodstone, timeship,etc.)


This also makes me think if it was an Ancient that created Reese then he didn't learn his lesson with how the Asurans turned out.

aaobuttons
August 12th, 2006, 10:25 AM
Well... he programed the SG1 replicators differently than the Asurians. Maybe he thought that would make the difference. But yeah, didn't learn his lesson. ;)

CalmStorm
August 12th, 2006, 10:50 AM
Overall, I really enjoyed this episode :)

Likes:
Seeing a city exactly like Atlantis flying!
The view of the outside Ausura (spelling?) with dowtown connected to the massive surrounding city structure.
Learning more about the ancients!
The entire set was beautiful.
Weir offworld and with the group!!!!
The overall speed of the episode was good.
Good ending. Last season all of the endings seemed very rushed. So far, the ending, to me, has been given enough time so far.


Dislikes:
So easily crossing the "nicer" replicators in order to escape.
Considering helping the "nicer" replicators with their knowedge of ascension. Is it not entirely possible that they would carry their revenge to the next higher plain of existence and be like the Ori? Thereby becoming an even greater threat to those on the lower plains?

However, it was not just about the team saving themselves. It was about the team saving the entire population of Atlantis. At some point, given what you have, you simply have to do what you have to do. It was the replicators who put the innocent inhabitants of Atlantis in danger. It was the replicators, who knowing that the ancients had ascended, were willing to slaughter innocent people for retribution on a civilization that is no longer present. So I do not view what the team did as a double cross to Niam and the others. However, one can only imagine what new retribution these replicators will take against their new enemy, the current inhabitants of Atlantis....yet at the same time, they were already intent on destoying Atlantis...now they will probably attempt it with anger at its current inhabitants.

Seastallion
August 12th, 2006, 10:51 AM
I liked this episode..! I loved seeing 'Atlantis' actually flying and in full capability mode. That alone made this a great episode. On the other hand, there were definitely some moral quandries in this episode. Some are under the impression that it was the Atlantis Expedition and the Ancients that did the betraying. I'm not so sure about that.

For one thing, we don't KNOW that Weir was told the FULL truth. I'm reasonably certain that what she was told WAS true, as far as it went. But I'm also certain that there was some pertinent information left out. The Asurans claimed that the Ancients destroyed them without cause, but I find that hard to believe. Perhaps from their own perspective that is true, but in the larger sense perhaps the Ancients had reasons that the Asurans could not, or would not understand.

In any case, back to the immediate events of the show, it was NOT the Atlantis Expedition that made the first hostile actions. They were content to leave in peace, but the Asurans forcibly stopped them and then essentially mind raped them. Afterwards, they made their intentions to destroy Atlantis clear, potentially ending not just the Expedition, but also Earth's greatest hope to learn all they can of the Ancients and their technology. There WAS far more at stake then a few hundred lives of the personnel on Atlantis. Earth and the futures of both the Pegasus and Milky Way galaxies were at stake as well. True Niam promised to do what he could, but as it turns out what he could do wasn't much. I'm sure he was originally sincere about helping them. However, upon being reset by the others (NOT reprogrammed per se. However all of his previous development and growth as an individual would've been wiped out and he was sent back to his original base programming codes), he was a threat and they had no choice but to rid themselves of him as best they could. It would've been wiser for them to have turned around and blasted him with a drone, but maybe they didn't realize he could survive in space. (Yeah, Rodney should've, but maybe he was just caught up in the action, and it sort of skipped his notice.) In any case, the Expedition did NOT betray either the Asurans OR Niam. Those of you saying they did are sorely mistaken. It was the Asurans that made the first hostile gestures. It was not at all like what happened with Fifth. They did NOT leave Niam behind, and Niam was NOT some innocent that didn't know what he was doing. He knew the risks he was taking, even if he wasn't entirely comfortable with it. He was in fact betraying his own, and he knew it, but his hope for ascension compelled him to do it. Anyways, depending on the response of the Asurans, Atlantis is going to have a VERY tricky road ahead. Great episode..! :)

BoneCollector
August 12th, 2006, 11:19 AM
Absolutelly GREAT episode!!!

I loved McKay - Sheppard interaction... I laughed a lot... And also McKay's line:

"why don't i go in these missions by myself?" I laughed like half an hour =))

bluealien
August 12th, 2006, 11:43 AM
I enjoyed the first 10 minutes or so but then it all went down hill. Altantis flying and Sheppards hallucination was probably the best parts, other than that I hated most of the rest of the ep.

Weirs diplomatic skills are unbelievable. Her giving away that they came from Altantis started the whole sorry mess.

Like in Misbegotten I sympathised with the Asurans and I'm sick to death of Weir spouting about her and her entire race being at risk. It was only at risk because of her deplorable decision making once again. And when did the Asurans say they had any interest in Earth. They have been around thousands of years so if it was their intention to attack earth they could have done it long ago. Altantis was their only target because of the ancients. But again Weir is willing to destroy a city of millions to save 200 hundred people without even trying to find another solution, I guess it really is survival at ANY cost irrespective of numbers - and Weir called Oberath arrogant. Why would they be a threat to Earth, they were only after Altantis but after the team destroyed their city I guess they could just become a serious enemy now!!

It looks like they intend to make enemies of half the Pegasus galaxy. Will they ever make a deal with anyone without betraying them and the fact that they do it with such ease. I thought Weir would be the moral compass for the expedition - a type of Daniel Jackson - but I couldn't have been more wrong. The tiny bit of respect I had for her is now entirely gone.

I didn't even find the McKay Sheppard banter that funny. It was the first time but after that it became a bit juevenile. This was such a let down after the wonderful Sateda and I have no interest in next weeks ep at all.:(

zombie8
August 12th, 2006, 11:55 AM
I thought this episode was pretty damn good! I can't remember the pop culture or "in joke" that Rodney made though,guess I'll have to wait for a rerun..
I really like the idea that the Ancients made the Replicators and the Wraith as well as the gates and who knows maybe even the goa'uld as well! I don't think it's such a horrible idea that it ran similar to Unnatural Selection..in my opinion its just building on the backstory of the replicators..even though they probe minds the same as 5th and his buddies.:cool:

uknesvuinng
August 12th, 2006, 11:58 AM
It occurs to me that the location of Atlantis for sure wasn't news to the Asurans. The only reason they hadn't bothered with Atlantis before now is they believed Atlantis had been destroyed by the Wraith 10k years ago. I imagine the location of Earth probably wasn't news to them either, considering Atlantis had lauched from there and it held much importance to the Ancients in the Milky Way. And they definitely knew about the seeded worlds in Pegasus. With all of this information, had they the desire to eradicate humanity, they would have done so millenia ago. It would seem they simply spent their time developing as a civilization, not really caring to wantonly destroy anything until they found an opportunity to attempt to gain closure by destroying Atlantis.

The Asurans didn't give a crap about humans before AR-1 came by. But now that the crew responsible for destroying several thousand Asurans, you can bet they have all kinds of rage they wish to unleash upon humanity. Because of Weir, a once non-threat is now a major, unstoppable short of deus ex machina threat. Realistically, the international committee should have removed her before Misbegotten because of the poor decision making regarding Michael. Since that didn't happen, they should have removed her for the events of Misbegotten. Now, she's screwed up yet again, but we know she won't be removed because she's a main character. She's also proving to one of the biggest threats to Earth in existence, surpassing such enemies as the Goa'uld and the Lucian Alliance with ease.

MarshAngel
August 12th, 2006, 12:11 PM
Despite some opinion not everybody out there is targeting earth in another galaxy. .... so obviously they don't harbor ill will towards all of humanity.

.....nor have they attacked the wraith which was their original programming code so all of a sudden we as viewers are supposed to believe that they'd travel to an entirely different galaxy and try to wipe out a race of beings they never even knew existed and to this day have never done anything to them? Come on, anyone with an IQ above room temperature shouldn't buy it Stargate universe or not!

Well to be fair, they supposedly did create that Hotzone virus to kill humans so they are not quite innocent but it's hard to buy that having gone to the bother to create that they've been sitting on their hands for the past 10,000 years. What have they been doing all this time, going in slow motion?
So they don't care about humans, fine. But it's hard to believe that they were programmed to be violent and yet all they've been doing is hanging out making ZPMs in peace for millennia.

I hope this is a mystery with a solution and not just a plothole like things seem to be too often these days.

FerCryinOutLoud!
August 12th, 2006, 12:14 PM
AWESOME!


Plus the Shep whump, the McKay whump (which fanfic writers will have a ball with).


Please, what does whump mean? I've never come across the term on the forums before and it's going to drive me nuts if i don't find out what it means!

cityofroses
August 12th, 2006, 12:14 PM
I'm pretty meh on this episode, it was disappointing after last week, it seems like the writers have no idea what they're doing with the show and retreading one the best episodes of SG-1, not a great idea especially since it wasn't a patch on Unnatural Selection.

There was some good stuff though, loved the flying city and some great character moments too.

aAnubiSs
August 12th, 2006, 12:20 PM
While I liked the episode, I feel good that my predictions over the last two years are 100% correct:

The Ancients created the Hot Zone-nanobots.

Weir is still a retard and should be sent back to Earth; for someone so very smart, and excellent at negotiating she sure always uses the military solution. She always also have her mind made up regarding people/races/values. For example she used the militaries opinion on the replicators without even thinking about that these aren't the same replicators as the ones in our galaxy. Either they should replace her with an actual military general that knows his **** and doesn't make stupid mistakes such as trusting the Wraith etc. or a real civilian that makes up his/her mind based on morale, ethics etc. instead of a military value. Too bad Woolsey chickened out and went soft on her.

I nominate O'Neill as the new Atlantis commander. Bring in a staff of politicians to take care of the negotiating and have a military leader with vast experience of aliens, combat as well as non-violent methods.

Apophis87
August 12th, 2006, 12:22 PM
Perhaps they should send General Landry to command Atlantis, and bring General O'Neill back to the SGC :)

aAnubiSs
August 12th, 2006, 12:24 PM
Perhaps they should send General Landry to command Atlantis, and bring General O'Neill back to the SGC :)
I feel it's better to have O'Neill in/on/at Atlantis. Landry is still relative new and it's better for him to have a safety net(The whole Pentagon:D). O'Neill has experience enough.

Ofc Hammond would be the absolute no.1

AGateFan
August 12th, 2006, 12:28 PM
Please, what does whump mean? I've never come across the term on the forums before and it's going to drive me nuts if i don't find out what it means!

whump - A thump; a thud.
Used to indicate a character getting beat up.

Sauron18
August 12th, 2006, 12:50 PM
While I liked the episode, I feel good that my predictions over the last two years are 100% correct:

The Ancients created the Hot Zone-nanobots.

Weir is still a retard and should be sent back to Earth; for someone so very smart, and excellent at negotiating she sure always uses the military solution. She always also have her mind made up regarding people/races/values. For example she used the militaries opinion on the replicators without even thinking about that these aren't the same replicators as the ones in our galaxy. Either they should replace her with an actual military general that knows his **** and doesn't make stupid mistakes such as trusting the Wraith etc. or a real civilian that makes up his/her mind based on morale, ethics etc. instead of a military value. Too bad Woolsey chickened out and went soft on her.

I nominate O'Neill as the new Atlantis commander. Bring in a staff of politicians to take care of the negotiating and have a military leader with vast experience of aliens, combat as well as non-violent methods.
The Asurans were the ones who made the virus. That is their "plan" and "advice". To destroy the Wraith's food supply.

ShadowMaat
August 12th, 2006, 01:00 PM
...so all of a sudden we as viewers are supposed to believe that they'd travel to an entirely different galaxy and try to wipe out a race of beings they never even knew existed and to this day have never done anything to them?
I'll think whatever I like to think, thank you, and you can keep your insults regarding my intelligence to yourself.

The replicators hate all things Ancient. Atlantis was an Ancient city and they set out to destroy it. Earth was a refuge for the Ancients and I think it's at least possible that the reps might be interesting in setting out to destroy THAT, too, especially if there's any genetic link between Earth humans and the Ancients. Fanwank or not, it might explain why Oberoth wanted to kill the expedition rather than letting them evacuate first.

Shtaman
August 12th, 2006, 01:13 PM
I've read all the post here and wow do people go at great lenght to explain the link between Reese and the Asurans in confusing and complicated ways.

I think its fair to assume she was an Asuran. When the Ancients decided to destroy their creation, one of them who didn't agree took a young Asuran, Reese, and fled with her to the Milky Way in a spaceship. Then, on the «Menace» planet, he tried many years to «fix» Reese, and thus prove to the Lantians they were wrong. But he didn't know how to properly access the programming so he eventually failed, and was killed along eveyone on the planet when the bugs were unleashed.

The power supply in Reese neck might have been a modification made by her «father», for a reason or an other. But the fact is she was 99% made of nanites and I firmly believe she was an Asuran. It's the simplest explanation on how the human replicators and the Asurans are so much alike... because Reese is the direct link between the two.

AGateFan
August 12th, 2006, 01:20 PM
I've read all the post here and wow do people go at great lenght to explain the link between Reese and the Asurans in confusing and complicated ways.

I think its fair to assume she was an Asuran. When the Ancients decided to destroy their creation, one of them who didn't agree took a young Asuran, Reese, and fled with her to the Milky Way in a spaceship. Then, on the «Menace» planet, he tried many years to «fix» Reese, and thus prove to the Lantians they were wrong. But he didn't know how to properly access the programming so he eventually failed, and was killed along eveyone on the planet when the bugs were unleashed.

The power supply in Reese neck might have been a modification made by her «father», for a reason or an other. But the fact is she was 99% made of nanites and I firmly believe she was an Asuran. It's the simplest explanation on how the human replicators and the Asurans are so much alike... because Reese is the direct link between the two.
Problem with that theory.... the shotgun worked pretty darn well on Reese, it wouldnt have had she been made of nanites. She was an android not a human form replicator.

Gaterholic
August 12th, 2006, 01:21 PM
Ok, i just need a little help seperating speculation from what has been seen.
please correct me if i am wrong.

1) We don't know if the hot zone virus was created by the replicators, or was created by the ancients and are the early version of the replicators.

2) we dont know if there is a relation between these and the SG1 replicator. We can assume there will be eventually, but no actual connection was made in the show, other than saying "maybe they are"

3) We don't know what they've been doing for the last 10,000 years, other than chilling.

4) We don't know if they were built with ancient level knowledge, or just evolved to that technological level. I would assume the first, which would explain why everything was the same. they dont know much other then they were written with. so they are not innovative or inventive.

5) we dont really know much about their built in rage. do they hate humans? the ancients? the wraith? If they have such a rage problem, why arent they killing and breaking stuff. they all seemed pretty calm, especially the one who helped them. Maybe thats a plot thread for later.


As I said, i am curious if these points are true. A lot of people speculate without saying its speculation, so i get confused if i missed something in the show.

saxamoophone
August 12th, 2006, 01:47 PM
Like others have said, the first half of this episode was GREAT. However, the resolution of the episode could of used some work. I kept screaming "Don't just blow up the city!!" Weir has really changed over the years..she's very trigger happy now!

Sauron18
August 12th, 2006, 01:47 PM
1) We don't know if the hot zone virus was created by the replicators, or was created by the ancients and are the early version of the replicators.
We do, TPTB told us this in the spoilers, it's how they were introduced, as the "villains who created the Hot Zone Virus". They aren't replicators btw, they are Asurans.


2) we dont know if there is a relation between these and the SG1 replicator. We can assume there will be eventually, but no actual connection was made in the show, other than saying "maybe they are"
It's something that doesn't need to be said, they assume we can connect the dots, which we can and have ever since the spoilers for this fantastic episode came out.


3) We don't know what they've been doing for the last 10,000 years, other than chilling.
That is correct, much like Ascended beings....


4) We don't know if they were built with ancient level knowledge, or just evolved to that technological level. I would assume the first, which would explain why everything was the same. they dont know much other then they were written with. so they are not innovative or inventive.
They have Ancient Level intelligence, but they are programmed to not "meddle" with themeselves. Aka: they can Make ZPMs and anything else the Ancients could, but they can't change themeselves, at least not alone.


5) we dont really know much about their built in rage. do they hate humans? the ancients? the wraith? If they have such a rage problem, why arent they killing and breaking stuff. they all seemed pretty calm, especially the one who helped them. Maybe thats a plot thread for later.
The Calm Before the Storm. Keep in mind, they thought there was nothing left of the Ancients anymore, they thought anything left had been consumed or destroyed by the Wraith. Therefore they really had no one to take their revenge too (granted they could kill the wraith, but I'm not sure they care).

Now that they know that certain Ancient things remain....

ShadowMaat
August 12th, 2006, 01:49 PM
They aren't replicators btw, they are Asurans.
That's poTAYto/poTAHto, as far as I'm concerned. A replicator is a replicator regardless of whatever fancy name they've adopted for themselves.

EdenSG
August 12th, 2006, 01:50 PM
A very good episode.
Overall I think season 3 has been strong. I like the fact that the stories, the decisions and the outcomes for the Atlantis Team have not been made so easy or clear.

Things I liked: The scene with Sheppard during the mind mining where he believes he is back on Atlantis had me on the edge of the seat; And then the transition to the scene back in the cell with the hand coming out of his forehead – very chilling.
The scene of Niam floating in space – very scary and I think definitely foreshadowing of bad things to come.
There was great McKay/Sheppard banter and the fun scene in the cell when McKay “checked” to see if Sheppard was real.
In addition, the special effects, the flying city, the destruction of Atlantis and the Asuran city, just WOW!

Things I did not like: The ending seemed rushed. The decision to destroy the city was so quick it seemed totally heartless. Also the final discussion on the balcony between Weir and Sheppard was too easy going (not sure if that is the right wording) for all they had been through and the new danger they now face.

I think this episode opened a new chapter in Atlantis history, one that will have lots of repercussions to come. I am looking forward to seeing how this all evolves in future episodes.

My perception of a few of things:

I think there is a lot more to the story of why the Ancients tried to eradicate the Asurans then we have been given thus far. Niam "showed" Weir how the Ancients created them, how they grew into their present forms and then how the Ancients came to destroy them. But was Niam’s version of events the whole truth or was Niam just giving her some of the information or even manipulating the story to gain her sympathy? Niam tells Weir that the Asurans were betrayed by the Ancients. He tells Weir, “they (Ancients) realized we (Asurans) would never become the weapon they hoped to create so they decided to end it.” What did he mean by weapon they hoped to create? Did the Ancients try to destroy the Asurans simply for that or did the Ancients realize they had created such a terrible, horrible weapon – one that was a threat to Ancients, humans and even the universe that the Ancients had to act. Did the Ancients act in cold blood to wipe out the Asurans or was there a reason why they needed to? I don’t think we really know just from this episode. Perhaps in future episodes more of this story will be revealed.

One other thing. I wonder what kind of weapon were the Asurans to supposed to have been against the Wraith? A weapon that carries guns to kill Wraith or more like a virus that would kill them from within? Now that sounds disturbingly familiar. Is history repeating itself? Is Oberoth to the Ancients what Michael is to the Atlantis Team.

Oberoth seemed very cold, ruthless and unyielding. He had little interest in negotiating with Weir and he had little regard for the lives of Weir and his team. He told Niam after they had obtained the info they needed from the Atlantis Team’s minds, "they are no longer any use to us, killing them seems to be the most prudent course." Niam was the one that asked for their lives to be spared. It also seemed to me that Oberoth held little regard for Niam’s desire for ascension. Throughout the episode I wondered what Niam's real motivation was. After all, Oberoth had such disdain and hatred for the Ancients I do not believe that Niam would ever have been able to convince him to see his point of view and not destroy Atlantis and it inhabitants – and I wonder if Niam knew this too. (After all once he is reprogrammed he admitted to Weir he could not promise he could change Oberoth’s mind). Niam wanted to be reprogrammed so he could try to reach Ascension – that is all he needed the Atlantis team for. Once he got this from the Atlantis team I had to wonder how much he would try to help them as he already admitted that his existence was at risk for what he was doing. The success of this plan totally relied on Niam doing what he said he would.

It is because of all this that I never thought it was a good plan and it had a slim chance at being successful, but it was the only one they had initially. My perception of the plan was;
1. McKay would develop a program to erase or rewrite their aggression directive
2. After the new program was downloaded into Niam he would share that new program with the other Asurans when there was a subspace “update”
3. Neither McKay or Niam could not perform the update, they had to wait for it to occur.
4. While they were waiting for the update to occur Niam would have had to try to convince Oberoth not to destroy Atlantis. In my perception the success of the entire plan rested upon whether or not Niam would have been successful – and for reasons I cited above I really don’t think he would have been.
5. There was very little time. They were approaching Atlantis and coming out of hyperspace.
6. When Mckay came up with a way to freeze the Ausrans it presented the Team with an alternative for escaping and saving Atlantis – to set the zpm’s to overload and destroy the city and escape in the puddlejumper.

This was a harsh plan and a betrayal to some degree of Niam but it was a plan with an outcome that they had control over and therefore could be much more certain of it being successful. (Success defined as the survival of Atlantis). If they had just escaped without destroying the city the Asurans would have destroyed Atlantis before everyone there could escape thru the gate. Was there another way they could have done things - maybe, but was there enough time? The ship had already dropped out of hyperspace and I don’t think Oberoth would have waited to destroy Atlantis.

While I did not like the fact that they had to destroy the city and kill the Asurans, the alternative, to have Atlantis and all its inhabitants destroyed, was not a good alternative either. And there is the question if Earth would have been at risk too. Over the years SG-1 and SGA have had to blow up a lot of enemy ships to survive. Hopefully, it is never an easy thing to do.

Sela
August 12th, 2006, 02:01 PM
It looked great, it felt great at first, I WANTED it to be great, but all it was, was a total rip-off of "Unnatural Selection", which is one of my all time fav SG1 episodes.

Disappointed, to say the least.
I agree. I enjoyed it up to the point when it took that decidedly "UnNatural Selection" turn and then I was amazed at how blantant the copy was right down to the fact of the sympathetic female character and the dumping of the ally at the end. I had been wondering why they had Weir go along on a first contact situation and that was why. By the way, who was running the show back home on Atlantis while all of the senior staff was gone?

I kept waiting for them to at least tie it into "Menace" saying perhaps that Reese's father must have been one of the Ancients. I could have taken that connection back to the beginning of the Replicators and been fine with it, but to leave it hanging out there as an obvious copy was disappointing.

One good point: I did love seeing the flying city. :)

PG15
August 12th, 2006, 02:05 PM
WOW WOW WOW!!!

That was AMAZING!!. There's so much to talk about oh my God so much. :D :D Just...damn, freaking amazing.

Ok, so the points:

The SFX, oh my god, just beautiful; everything from the reveal of the great city, to the city lifting off, to it flying around, just freaking amazing! I don't know how the SFX team does it, but...just damn!

The music, Joel did a great job tonight, as usual. My favorite parts include the city reveal, the Wraith attack, and of course, the whole end sequence, which had me just on the edge of my seats the whole time.

Of course, the numbers game between Shep and McKay; Carl Binder does great banter (hey, that rhymes!). It was very fast-paced and the two played it without a flaw!

One minor thing, is that the overloading ZPMs was said to be able to obliterate Lantia, but here it wasn't near as powerful. Oh well, maybe it was on purpose, it's not like Binder to make a mistake like this.

I know it was not real, but the McKay-being-heroic part in Shep's mind probe was really...well, nice. I guess it furthers Shep and McKay's friendship somewhat, knowing how Shep really thinks of him.

Speaking of the Wraith attack, it didn't matter that I figured out that it wasn't real the moment they started firing, but damn, I pretty much jumped when Radek shouted "they're firing!" Very nice delivery by our favorite Czech! :D

And I don't care if it was like Unnatural Selection; sure the plot points might seem similar, but Niem (sp?) was nothing like Fifth, he was adult, and wanted to become much more, not some adolescent that wanted to fit in or something.

There are a bunch more things, but one last thing I need to touch on is the depth of the Asurans. It's been 2 years since the Wraith were introduced, and they still don't have much depth (well, I don't think, as a species, they have much depth to begin with), but right away in this one episode, we reveal the full motivations of the Asurans. Very well done.

Anyway, awesome episode, and I can't wait till next week! More Asurans, and of course, 200! :D

Score: 10/10

uknesvuinng
August 12th, 2006, 02:11 PM
[SIZE="7"]One minor thing, is that the overloading ZPMs was said to be able to obliterate Lantia, but here it wasn't near as powerful. Oh well, maybe it was on purpose, it's not like Binder to make a mistake like this.

So, you think that instead of accidentally breaking continuity, Carl Binder effectively "gave it the finger?"

PG15
August 12th, 2006, 02:13 PM
I still have faith in TPTB. That's all I'm gonna say.

Mainer82
August 12th, 2006, 02:15 PM
Someone please tell me why the Stargate personnel are incapable of learning from mistakes? Betray the replicators once, it returns to cause them massive trouble. The Ancients betrayed these replicators, and it caused problems. Why do they think it would be a good idea to immediately betray the replicators a third time, especially when a peaceful solution with a high probability of success has already presented itself. Keep the freeze-the-replicators-and-blow-up-the-city plan as a backup, but give the other plan a reasonable chance.

Why must characters make stupid decisions to advance the plot?
I agree... they are in loads of trouble.

One thing I didn't like was that the ZPMs were blown up and barely anything happened. A few seasons back Sam said that if one were to blow up it could take out a galaxy, or was that because it was tampered with?

PG15
August 12th, 2006, 02:27 PM
Having read most of the thread, I got to put out my own views on this whole betrayl thing.

First, they are replicators. Some of you want history? Look at the history of our dealings with replicators. What incentive do you think our heroes have at trying to make them our allies?

Second, so what if we betray them? They were already on their way to destroy Atlantis. Oh, now that we've betrayed them, they're so mad that they're going to destroy Atlantis...twice!!

Anyway, just my two cents.

SGalisa
August 12th, 2006, 02:33 PM
glad I didn't read the spoilers on this, cause it was a definite and *interesting* surprise. But the moment I saw the hand coming out of Shep's forehead, I sensed "REPLICATORS"... whoa! but these nanites are an advanced form, however. :eek:

it was sad to see Niam turned evil at the end; but then there might not be an opportunity for Rodney to try to fix him again with more lasting results...

as for Oberoth: could that guy get any colder??

Not sure if the nanite replicators can *ascend* tho...
Can picture them eating into the minds of the wraith, tho... ;)

and the ancients are really the evil ones, without even trying?? Shep's not a happy camper discovering that notation.

uknesvuinng
August 12th, 2006, 02:33 PM
Having read most of the thread, I got to put out my own views on this whole betrayl thing.

First, they are replicators. Some of you want history? Look at the history of our dealings with replicators. What incentive do you think our heroes have at trying to make them our allies?

Second, so what if we betray them? They were already on their way to destroy Atlantis. Oh, now that we've betrayed them, they're so mad that they're going to destroy Atlantis...twice!!

Anyway, just my two cents.
Yes, let's look at our history with them, as well as the Ancients history with them, and notice the trend that betraying them ALWAYS comes back to bite you in the ass.

They mainly wanted to destroy Atlantis because they had an aggressive subroutine that made them violent, and the actions of the Ancients toward them gave them something to be violent about. Had they used the the original plan of simply removing the aggressive subroutine from the Asurans, there would be very little reason for them to continue on the path of destroying Atlantis. Instead, Weir chose betrayal that has guaranteed the Asurans will attempt another attack, and this time the Atlantis team won't be given access to the base code to be able to do anything about it.

Dr. Weir has become the most dangerous enemy to Earth. The rest of AR-1 holds a bit of the blame for going along with such stupid ideas.

Sauron18
August 12th, 2006, 02:35 PM
The Asurans are not Replicators, they are Asurans:

Replicators are called such because their sole purpose is to Replicate.

The Asurans don't replicate anymore than we breed, so to call them Replicators would be as inappropriate as them calling us breeders. It is not their purpose and it is certainly not all they do.

They are Asurans.

Admiral Mappalazarou
August 12th, 2006, 02:41 PM
I thought that out of ten, this episode was only a five - wasn't a big fan to be honest. The massive Asuran city was cool and their flying city was nice, but I thought that compared to last week's 'Sateda' it lacked that sense of epic Atlantis adventure.

That's my review anyways.

uknesvuinng
August 12th, 2006, 02:42 PM
The Asurans are not Replicators, they are Asurans:

Replicators are called such because their sole purpose is to Replicate.

The Asurans don't replicate anymore than we breed, so to call them Replicators would be as inappropriate as them calling us breeders. It is not their purpose and it is certainly not all they do.

They are Asurans.
Actually, these "Asurans" rebuilt Asura, which was the place where they were created, after the Ancients bombed the crud out of it (with some beautiful CG). The "true" Asurans were the Ancients that originally inhabited that place.

The most accurate term for them would be "nanocell collectives entities." But to the writers, they'll always be replicators.

PG15
August 12th, 2006, 02:43 PM
Yes, let's look at our history with them, as well as the Ancients history with them, and notice the trend that betraying them ALWAYS comes back to bite you in the ass.

So what? They're biting our ass now! Uh...you know what I mean.

Besides, betrayl will make anybody angry, but is there any point not to do it if they already hate your guts?


They mainly wanted to destroy Atlantis because they had an aggressive subroutine that made them violent, and the actions of the Ancients toward them gave them something to be violent about. Had they used the the original plan of simply removing the aggressive subroutine from the Asurans, there would be very little reason for them to continue on the path of destroying Atlantis. Instead, Weir chose betrayal that has guaranteed the Asurans will attempt another attack, and this time the Atlantis team won't be given access to the base code to be able to do anything about it.

Well, I kinda see your point, but I guess they were thinking on their feet. They were heading to Atlantis to blow it up anyway, and I don't think they knew when the next merge was going to be.

Meh, doesn't bother me. They are the new enemy afterall, if we pacify them here and now...well, we wouldn't have much of a new enemy.

uknesvuinng
August 12th, 2006, 02:48 PM
So what? They're biting our ass now! Uh...you know what I mean.

Besides, betrayl will make anybody angry, but is there any point not to do it if they already hate your guts?

They only wanted to destory Atlantis. Now, they will likely want to go after all humans, including the ones on Earth that we so conveniently gave them the location thereof. Earth now has yet another threat, one that wouldn't have been a threat if Weir hadn't jumped at the chance to kill thousands unnecessarily.

PG15
August 12th, 2006, 02:49 PM
Atlantis is supposed to be a secret, but she volunterrs the info that it's still around.

She never said Atlantis, just that they needed ZPMs (which really was the goal of the entire mission), and Oberoth guessed that they were from a Lantian city. Atlantis was never mentioned.

And of course, no body could've stood against the mind probe.


She destroys the city. Killing thousands if not hundreds of thousands of sentient beings. There were alternatives on the table, but instead of waiting 3 minutes and possibly saving all of those lives and gaining an ally, she commits mass murder. Good job Weir. Once again you've proven that you are a war criminal.

D

They were going to blow up Atlantis, and our team didn't know when the merging was supposed to happen. Where did that "3 minutes" come from?


They only wanted to destory Atlantis. Now, they will likely want to go after all humans,

We shall see.

uknesvuinng
August 12th, 2006, 02:56 PM
They were going to blow up Atlantis, and our team didn't know when the merging was supposed to happen. Where did that "3 minutes" come from?

The merging could have been done at will. Niam planned to use the it to update the program, so it was probably a simple matter to request a merge or somesuch. It's obvious the communication network is always-on, as it was the same update mechanism that allowed them to freeze ALL of the Asurans (excluding Niam because of his changed program). Clearly, the timing of the update was a non-issue.

Elinor
August 12th, 2006, 02:58 PM
Ooooh....flying city! Pretty! Great effects!

I enjoyed this episode. Been so long since I've seen the episode some of you are mentioning this is a bit of a retread of, so it doesn't matter to me! I can't really remember much about that one!

Loved the team feel to the whole thing again...and Lizzie got to play this time to! The Shep/McKay banter put a smile on my face....as always. Joe and David work wonderfully well together. Ronon's getting some cool moves. Great gun twirling!!

Favourite piece of dialogue?
Niam: Your minds are no longer being probed.
Shep: Good to know it was just our minds!!

http://www.websmileys.com/sm/happy/1002.gif

PG15
August 12th, 2006, 03:03 PM
The merging could have been done at will. Niam planned to use the it to update the program, so it was probably a simple matter to request a merge or somesuch. It's obvious the communication network is always-on, as it was the same update mechanism that allowed them to freeze ALL of the Asurans (excluding Niam because of his changed program). Clearly, the timing of the update was a non-issue.

Then why didn't Niam do it right away? I guess the big problem with this episode is that the ending was a tad rushed.

funks
August 12th, 2006, 03:12 PM
4) We don't know if they were built with ancient level knowledge, or just evolved to that technological level. I would assume the first, which would explain why everything was the same. they dont know much other then they were written with. so they are not innovative or inventive.


I'm pretty sure the asurans assimilated ancient technology, and most likely have surpassed (it's been 10k years). The only problem was, just like the ancients - they were so technically advanced that they needed to ascend in order to continue learning / evolving.

I guess you could say, the ancients got bored - lol.

Didn't niam state that the asuran society itself also became stagnant, ascension is probably the only solution for them to continue evolving.

zombie8
August 12th, 2006, 03:30 PM
I think that when Menace was written they were trying to create a backstory for the replicators back then in season 5 and that was all. At the time that was the origin of the replicators..that a robot made them as toys. But after SG1 kinda swept the replicator stories to the side,Atlantis writers wanted to redefine the replicator backstory to fit in with the Atlantis storyline. Maybe sooner or later they might explain(or create an explaination for) how reese fits in to it all as well.

Oka
August 12th, 2006, 03:38 PM
So they screwed up again and made enemies with the most powerful beings in the galaxy. And did they have to bring replicators into SG again? Seriously I got sick of those things after the 3rd episode they were in on SG-1, why couldn't they just have let them be ancients, or whatever. Grr, this Episode had potential but they screwed it up.

Are we going to be stuck with these replicators ripoffs for the rest of the season now?

vaberella
August 12th, 2006, 03:40 PM
Well to be fair, they supposedly did create that Hotzone virus to kill humans so they are not quite innocent but it's hard to buy that having gone to the bother to create that they've been sitting on their hands for the past 10,000 years. What have they been doing all this time, going in slow motion?
So they don't care about humans, fine. But it's hard to believe that they were programmed to be violent and yet all they've been doing is hanging out making ZPMs in peace for millennia.

I hope this is a mystery with a solution and not just a plothole like things seem to be too often these days.

Woah what's this?! That's not what I read from the episode. The first news I got about the HZ killers was that they killed humans, and yet there was no proof the Ancients had anything to do with it, but we know they weren't affected by the virus. When this ep with the Asurans was coming I heard it might be Ancients who created the microtech killers, since no knew they were Asurans not Ancients..then I heard it was Asurans who created the microtech killers---would be ancients.

But when I watched Progeny that's not what I got. There was no proof to say they created the microtech killers in HZ. What I heard from the episode is that the Asurans ARE in fact the microtech killers taken human form. Meaning that the Ancients created them and they were used as a weapon attack the wraith from the inside. Check out when Niam said that---when he was with Weir. Then the ancient creation took on new life and took on new form, they started melding together and taking form, becoming in essence an AI---and taking on their ancient counter parts.

So who created the microtech killer in HZ? Based on last nights ep the Asurans were the microtech killer which was created by the Ancients. So it was the Ancients in their testing to destroy the wraith who inadvertently created a virus that killed humans. Not the Asurans.

funks
August 12th, 2006, 04:01 PM
maybe there was some truth to what oberoth stated in the beginning in regards to the "disagreement"..

Somebody stated earlier that maybe the asurans "proposed" (created the hotzone virus) to kill off the humans in the pegasus galaxy. This is maybe why the hotzone virus was in atlantis (They lanteans were probably studying the "proposal").

Then maybe lantians realized that their creations became a bit *TOO* extreme (a) and decided to wipe them out.

(a) in line with what weir stated, that they somewhat felt that the humans were the ancients favored creations, hence creating the nanozone virus to kill off the humans in the pegasus galaxy wasn't a big deal for the asurans)

theory - Basically, the lanteans built these nanites (which later became asurans) specifically to attack wraith physiology (wouldn't have made sense for them to design the nanites to target humans as their war was with the wraith). Then the asurans *proposed* to use modified nanites targeted towards the humans physiology instead(b). Hence disagreement - lanteans decided their creations were a bit too *extreme* and decided to wipe them out.

(b) hot zone virus - kill of the wraith food supply which the asurans thought were in line with what the lanteans wanted - to kill of the wraith.

HirogenGater
August 12th, 2006, 04:06 PM
I don't know. It was a great episode overall. It left me confused. Did the Ancients create the replicators and if so are they the same as the android Reese we found a long time ago? It kept my attention the whole way through, I have to say. Season 3 is off to a great start.

I am confused about this as well. I thought Replicators were created in our galaxy by some unknown race.

O'Neil
August 12th, 2006, 04:19 PM
Once again, the team gets dupped and wins the grand prize of another enemy. This repeating pot of pablum is getting old. Atlantis should change its name to "Stupid explorers that cant learn a lesson". I bet the rest of S3 will be nothing but a big pile of trouble and stupid mistakes.

Ok, so we saw a city fly..... awesome!

We find out more about the stuck up ancients..... great!

The SGA team makes another enemy.... join the club.

We miss out on yet another opportunity to get a ZPM..... why am I not surprised.

Weir needs a beating. And not one of those manly bloody beatings. Im talking about one of those "slap me around and call me susie" beatings. That woman has way too much power and expects everyone they meet to be nice and helpful.

I think the writers are running out of ideas, and if its going to take another 3 seasons in order for the team to gets its act together and find some ZPM's and quit acting like idiots, im not so sure if im going to watch it anymore.

SGA has gone from Mind blowing awesome, to second hand store bought crap. They need to fix things fast.

Brivilya Almasy
August 12th, 2006, 04:53 PM
I actually really liked this episode. The Mckay/Shep banter was cute. "He always does this!" haha, really amused me.

And when they were probing Sheppard's mind ,he thought Atlantis was being destroyed, I got really into that moment and thought it was actually happening,lol. I didn't even think that well, they're obviously not going to kill him off. haha..

I read in some interview with Brad Wright, i think and he said that the Asurans were meant to be the original enemies of the Atlantis expedition, or sumthing to that effect. So as of this season they have two major enemies to fight. Sooner or later the asurans are gonna come for them,lol.And they still have the wraith to worry about.

The one thing that kinda bothered me a bit was that John didn't say anything about Elizabeth going offworld except for "You're the boss". I would think he'd be a little more like protective of her. And he didn't say anything when Niem was going to show her about his people. Idk, lol, maybe i was hoping for a bit more but i wondered about that.

And isn't this episode sort of a two parter with the Real World, the next episode? Do the asurans have anything to do with what happens to Weir? Cuz Niem was left in space just floating around. I couldn't tell, but was he moving or not? It kinda looked like he was, but I dont think he was.


But overall I liked this episode.

Apophis87
August 12th, 2006, 05:18 PM
Besides, betrayl will make anybody angry, but is there any point not to do it if they already hate your guts?


Well, they only hate your guts because they've been programmed to be very aggressive. Only some of them hate your guts and want to destroy Atlantis, others don't. So, if you change their programming, so the ones who do want to destroy Atlantis will become more like the ones who don't want to destroy Atlantis, then none of them will want to destroy Atlantis. But, if you ignore that plan, and just piss them off further by betraying the ones who wanted to be your friends, then you just get a powerfull, aggressive enemy who now is united in their desire to kill you.

So, what SHOULD they have done? Hmm, well, they clearly had access to the ZPMs. Now, I'm pretty sure it's been established that Ancient weapons need power. Alot of power. So, you take all but 1 of the ZPMs (so the shield doesn't fall while you're still in the city-ship), and now the Asurans have no power for their weapons, and you can just wait untill Niam spreads the code change to the others. Or, if they can shut down the shield without getting sucked into space, and decide to use the ZPM to power the weapons, then they still have just 1 ZPM, while you have 3. So you can have shields and weapons, while they can only have weapons, which means if they're dumb enough to attack, you can easily destroy them. I'd say that's a much better course of action, because you have a chance of Niam's plan working, and if it doesn't, at least you get 2 ZPMs out of it.

xfkirsten
August 12th, 2006, 05:21 PM
So, what SHOULD they have done? Hmm, well, they clearly had access to the ZPMs. Now, I'm pretty sure it's been established that Ancient weapons need power. Alot of power. So, you take all but 1 of the ZPMs (so the shield doesn't fall while you're still in the city-ship), and now the Asurans have no power for their weapons, and you can just wait untill Niam spreads the code change to the others. Or, if they can shut down the shield without getting sucked into space, and decide to use the ZPM to power the weapons, then they still have just 1 ZPM, while you have 3. So you can have shields and weapons, while they can only have weapons, which means if they're dumb enough to attack, you can easily destroy them. I'd say that's a much better course of action, because you have a chance of Niam's plan working, and if it doesn't, at least you get 2 ZPMs out of it.

They had a lot of ZPMs, though, as they could manufacture them. I would be surprised if they didn't have backups with them. So the Atlantis team could take ZPMs, but I'm willing to bet the Asurans wolud have more to put in their place.

Lieutenant Reichwein
August 12th, 2006, 05:28 PM
The Atlantis expedition will burin in hell for their actions. I don't see why they make such stupid decisions time and time again. They have no problem committing genocide either. Seems like they are screwing up Pegasus in a few years than the Wraith have in hundreds. =\

xfkirsten
August 12th, 2006, 05:42 PM
The Atlantis expedition will burin in hell for their actions.

If the Atlantis expedition members are going to burn in hell, then there's a whole lot of American government officials that are going to be in a lot of trouble in the afterlife. :p

ShadowMaat
August 12th, 2006, 05:44 PM
Ah, but will they REALLY burn in Hell, or will it just be another rep-induced vision? :P

xfkirsten
August 12th, 2006, 05:45 PM
Don't give the writers any big ideas! :p

Blower'sGate
August 12th, 2006, 06:25 PM
First, yes I've seen Unatural Selection and every single episodes of SG1. I have to admit it's not original to use a plot from the original show to a spin off. Indeed SGA is a spin-off, but a spin-off needs some similarities with the original show. Using the replicators agains might have been a mistake if I didn't believe, just by -maybe I have a sixth sense- watching and understanding the episode, that TPTB want to go farther with the Asurans than the original replicators. I think while the wraith are still -and hopefully- still around, the Asurans are truly the next great new bady, espacelly since there's a lot to discover about the anscients with them. IMO that's the plus that made me love this episode. Sure it's similar to Unatural Selection but I believe that SGA has an incredible potential.

May I say that SG1 used also, in a couple of episodes, references to SGA. So these two shows are connected. A hell of a great news! I mean maybe the episode could have been directed by someone else but it wasn't the case and we can't go backwards. So the second part of the episode didn't please a lot of you guys! But think of it as a needed transition to -I hope- great new adventures, discoveries on the anscients ( that maybe they're not who we think they are ), the Asurans and the Wraith, great CGI, great acting ( cause tonight's ep was full of it, I mean all the cast was great IMO of course )..... This episode opened a lot of new possibilites IMO. Which are far more interesting than I thought this episode would have brought. I don't think TPTB would have taken a risk such as bringing back the replicators without a specific ideo of how to handle a plot that was first brought up in SG1. I don't think SGA's writers are out of ideas. Actually, I believe they're going to blow us away...

Ok so now, doctor Weir's part in SGA: ( I'd just like to point out that her character is complicated -in her decisions (lol) as in her personality- )
After reading all of your posts on this thread, I may only assume you truly think she's unecessary to Atlantis, sometimes it's hatred towards the character. Dr Weir is one of my favourite characters on the show. And you know why? Because she's definitly not made to be the great grand leader like Hammond, O'Neil ( sometimes lol :p ) or Landry. Indeed she made a lot of bad decisions but I believe these are the writer's idea because for once I truly think they want to make the leader of this 'civilian' project an irresponsable person. Characters have to grow, I'm sure you're aware of it. For the story's main plot and, in the eye of the viewers. The three well-known generals I mentioned above are military. This has been said many times so I'm sorry that I have to say it once more: she isn't, her decisions are not made upon military basis. She may not be the diplomat you would have expected her to be, but I think it makes her even more interesting because her decisions will engage Atlantis in far more extended stories that, I'm sure this way will give SGA the possibility of being one of the most surprising spin-off. Why? Because her decisions might work for a while like we've seen in the past (I know most of the time at the expense of great stuff or the "greater good", I got it !!:)...but these decision aren't safe. That's what's making the show even more open to drama and then incredible expectations will come out of it. This way pro"I don't want SGA to be SG1's copy" will get Atlantis "A show in its own". And for people like me who think it still has to be related to SG1, there's still the Asurans :p lol :)

Remember this "Error communis facit jus": "A common error makes law". Whether she makes the decisions alone or not, the error is settled and it makes the story go on with its own law. In our democraties it's the case. Let's just hope a "great purpose" is the law the writers are aiming at. Let's just face it her character is troubled as any other human being, but instead of using military commands, she's using her own. But let's not forget she's under surveillance....

Anyway ( wow what a speech ) it's just a show so, I believe while we're still watching it we should just enjoy what's happening in it. I hope now some of you will change your minds and will consider the possibility to give Weir a second chance. By watching The Real World maybe ( next week episode ) hehe !!! Considering none of us have seen it yet, then maybe it won't be as good as I had hoped the week before it aired. But I'll never give up.

I'm going to repeat myself but the hell I care, this post is anything but objective. We're free to choose what to like or dislike...

xxxxxxxx SGAforever:) Have fun with the show guys :)

IWantToBelieve
August 12th, 2006, 06:37 PM
The episode thread is for discussion of the episode, both things people enjoyed and didn't enjoy.

I've rewatched the episode now and I have the same issues with it.

The first half was definitely well done. The second half lost a lot of ground.

The thing is, instead of going off in an original way, the writing had the 'good' guys do something decidedly 'not good'.

Niam, and others, helped them. Gave them access to the codes. Promised to do everything they could to ensure Atlantis would not be destroyed. It wasn't as if they had solid proof that Niam and the others were a much smaller set, not at all, Oberoth was the only Asuran that was very aggressive.

A better end: That the code works on enough that a faction splits. The good Asurans take over, but the 'bad' escape to continue to be an enemy. Therefore not causing Weir to take Ronon's 'we have to blow them up...including the ones that trusted us and promised to be allies and help fight the wraith'.

The problem with this more than anything is they *had* a good plan, and then went with the morally wrong choice. It wasn't 'we have no other choice'...here, they did. There wasn't any proof to show that Niam's faith was misplaced.

Very disturbing.

In the fight with the wraith, they've made hard choices, not all for good. It would be nice to see them grow and learn from past mistakes instead of making them again. This was a big mistake.

But, I still give the episode a 7/10. The acting was superb, the set, the characters, all of that was very enjoyable. I just wish the writers could've handled the end of this episode with better care. They could've had it end better and still allow for 'the new enemy'.

uknesvuinng
August 12th, 2006, 06:41 PM
First, yes I've seen Unatural Selection and every single episodes of SG1. I have to admit it's not original to use a plot from the original show to a spin off. Indeed SGA is a spin-off, but a spin-off needs some similarities with the original show. Using the replicators agains might have been a mistake if I didn't believe, just by -maybe I have a sixth sense- watching and understanding the episode, that TPTB want to go farther with the Asurans than the original replicators. I think while the wraith are still -and hopefully- still around, the Asurans are truly the next great new bady, espacelly since there's a lot to discover about the anscients with them. IMO that's the plus that made me love this episode. Sure it's similar to Unatural Selection but I believe that SGA has an incredible potential.

May I say that SG1 used also, in a couple of episodes, references to SGA. So these two shows are connected. A hell of a great news! I mean maybe the episode could have been directed by someone else but it wasn't the case and we can't go backwards. So the second part of the episode didn't please a lot of you guys! But think of it as a needed transition to -I hope- great new adventures, discoveries on the anscients ( that maybe they're not who we think they are ), the Asurans and the Wraith, great CGI, great acting ( cause tonight's ep was full of it, I mean all the cast was great IMO of course )..... This episode opened a lot of new possibilites IMO. Which are far more interesting than I thought this episode would have brought. I don't think TPTB would have taken a risk such as bringing back the replicators without a specific ideo of how to handle a plot that was first brought up in SG1. I don't think SGA's writers are out of ideas. Actually, I believe they're going to blow us away...

Ok so now, doctor Weir's part in SGA: ( I'd just like to point out that her character is complicated -in her decisions (lol) as in her personality- )
After reading all of your posts on this thread, I may only assume you truly think she's unecessary to Atlantis, sometimes it's hatred towards the character. Dr Weir is one of my favourite characters on the show. And you know why? Because she's definitly not made to be the great grand leader like Hammond, O'Neil ( sometimes lol :p ) or Landry. Indeed she made a lot of bad decisions but I believe these are the writer's idea because for once I truly think they want to make the leader of this 'civilian' project an irresponsable person. Characters have to grow, I'm sure you're aware of it. For the story's main plot and, in the eye of the viewers. The three well-known generals I mentioned above are military. This has been said many times so I'm sorry that I have to say it once more: she isn't, her decisions are not made upon military basis. She may not be the diplomat you would have expected her to be, but I think it makes her even more interesting because her decisions will engage Atlantis in far more extended stories that, I'm sure this way will give SGA the possibility of being one of the most surprising spin-off. Why? Because her decisions might work for a while like we've seen in the past (I know most of the time at the expense of great stuff or the "greater good", I got it !!:)...but these decision aren't safe. That's what's making the show even more open to drama and then incredible expectations will come out of it. This way pro"I don't want SGA to be SG1's copy" will get Atlantis "A show in its own". And for people like me who think it still has to be related to SG1, there's still the Asurans :p lol :)

Remember this "Error communis facit jus": "A common error makes law". Whether she makes the decisions alone or not, the error is settled and it makes the story go on with its own law. In our democraties it's the case. Let's just hope a "great purpose" is the law the writers are aiming at. Let's just face it her character is troubled as any other human being, but instead of using military commands, she's using her own. But let's not forget she's under surveillance....

Anyway ( wow what a speech ) it's just a show so, I believe while we're still watching it we should just enjoy what's happening in it. I hope now some of you will change your minds and will consider the possibility to give Weir a second chance. By watching The Real World maybe ( next week episode ) hehe !!! Considering none of us have seen it yet, then maybe it won't be as good as I had hoped the week before it aired. But I'll never give up.

I'm going to repeat myself but the hell I care, this post is anything but objective. We're free to choose what to like or dislike...

xxxxxxxx SGAforever:) Have fun with the show guys :)

It's my sincere hope that "irresponsible" leaders, especially ones who show such blatant disregard for consequences and a desire to commit mass murder, would be removed from their positions when they're shown to be unfit for the position. There's a great difference between mere human error and consistently making bad judgements. Weir practically went out of her way to kill thousands, including those who only wanted to help her. Sure, she saved Niam, but only because he wasn't frozen. She didn't even give a second thought to the others who felt the same as Niam and were partially responsible for her still being alive.

Maybe Weir's a Goa'uld, sent to sabotage Earth's efforts in Pegasus. She's doing a pretty good job of that these days.