PDA

View Full Version : Progeny (305)



Pages : 1 [2] 3

PG15
August 12th, 2006, 07:43 PM
^ to IWantToBelieve

In your scenerio, our team would get a fresh new cityship with 3 ZPMs.

I really doubt TPTB would give us such an advantage.

uknesvuinng
August 12th, 2006, 07:51 PM
^ to IWantToBelieve

In your scenerio, our team would get a fresh new cityship with 3 ZPMs.

I really doubt TPTB would give us such an advantage.
So we should except character stupidity because the writers wrote themselves into a corner?

The team would have never gotten the cityship. Considering the removal of the aggression subroutine, it would make the most sense to me that the nice Asurans would have gone the Nox-style passifist route, used their tech to stay out of the reach of the wraith, but never did anything to fight them. The team might have gotten ZPMs, but the writers could have worked with that. If there was a schism and the aggressive ones remained, albeit separated from the nice ones, then they could have still remained an enemy, without writing a blatantly stupid decision.

Try, TPTB. Try...

IWantToBelieve
August 12th, 2006, 07:51 PM
^ to IWantToBelieve

In your scenerio, our team would get a fresh new cityship with 3 ZPMs.

I really doubt TPTB would give us such an advantage.

Not necessarily...the 'good' faction wouldn't just hand it over, and why should they? And, they could have their hands full back home with a civil war...the split could be through their society...it doesn't mean they'd get a fresh new cityship and those ZPM's.

PG15
August 12th, 2006, 07:56 PM
So we should except character stupidity because the writers wrote themselves into a corner?

Uh...no?


The team would have never gotten the cityship. Considering the removal of the aggression subroutine, it would make the most sense to me that the nice Asurans would have gone the Nox-style passifist route, used their tech to stay out of the reach of the wraith, but never did anything to fight them. The team might have gotten ZPMs, but the writers could have worked with that. If there was a schism and the aggressive ones remained, albeit separated from the nice ones, then they could have still remained an enemy, without writing a blatantly stupid decision.

Try, TPTB. Try...

I guess the ep should've been a 2 parter.

IWantToBelieve
August 12th, 2006, 08:06 PM
It can very well be that this ending will make and hold up much better after the next episode and the mid-season two parter.


Ultimately, we'll just have to wait and see.

Considering I've been very happy with the first four episodes, having some issues with this one is a little thing. Season 3 has been going incredibly well. I'm hoping the Asuran angle will be great in the end.

Blower'sGate
August 12th, 2006, 08:16 PM
Maybe Weir's a Goa'uld, sent to sabotage Earth's efforts in Pegasus. She's doing a pretty good job of that these days.

Actually, now that you're pointin' it out! Why not! Afterall she's Weir'd' :p lol
No but seriously I agree with pretty much you said about the fact that she's responsible for killing Asurans that wanted to ascend. But still what about Atlantis? They needed time to complete the first plan. The city ship was far too close from Atlantis if I remember correctly and maybe Niam couldn't have convinced "the Asurans' leader"- don't remember his name -. I mean what is SGA without the city of Atlantis? Yes you're right they could have handled plan A but, I think plan B was certainly not the most idealistic one, but it was safer IMO.

But you're right Dr Weir had two seasons of sometimes really bad calls but if her decisions are so bad isn't it strange that, Altantis hasn't fall down or that, Dr Weir hasn't been kicked out of the show yet?

( talking to myself lol )Yeah but again it's complicated. By the way I don't want to offend anyone with my opinions. No actually it's not hard to understand that people may hate someone you appreciate on a show. LOL ) talking to oneself===>end of transmission:S

IWantToBelieve I'm glad you enjoyed the season so far :) 'cause so have I.

uknesvuinng
August 12th, 2006, 08:23 PM
Actually, now that you're pointin' it out! Why not! Afterall she's Weir'd' :p lol
No but seriously I agree with pretty much you said about the fact that she's responsible for killing Asurans that wanted to ascend. But still what about Atlantis? They needed time to complete the first plan. The city ship was far too close from Atlantis if I remember correctly and maybe Niam couldn't have convinced "the Asurans' leader"- don't remember his name -. I mean what is SGA without the city of Atlantis? Yes you're right they could have handled plan A but I think plan B was not the most idealistic one, but it was safer IMO.

But you're right Dr Weir had two seasons of sometimes really bad calls but if her decisions are so bad isn't it strange that, Altantis hasn't fall down or that, Dr Weir hasn't been kicked out of the show yet?

( talking to myself lol )Yeah but again it's complicated by the way I don't want to offend anyone with my opinions. No actually it's not hard to understand that people may hate someone you appreciate on a show. LOL ) talking to oneself===>end of transmission:S

Don't worry about offending anyone with your subjective opinion. Just don't pass your opinion off as fact or assume others have no right to their own opinions that disagree with your opinions, and things will be ok. Anyone who is "offended" can just set his/her whine upon a shelf to let it age.

Considering the size of the city, and the size of the explosion from the random soldier's view, the city was still quite far away, and that was well after they chose to ignore the good plan and go with the bad plan. They had more than enough time to push try the update before going with the backup plan.

O'Neil
August 12th, 2006, 08:42 PM
I think its safe to say that the team will never obtain 2 more ZPM's. We've seen atlantis in battle, and we've seen what it would look like flying, entering hyperspace, and being destroyed.

Now its time for the writers to concentrate on making sure everyone knows and see's just how dumb and ignorant the team is. I dont think we've seen their worst mistakes yet.

So I guess operation "This will likely end badly" is a go!

That right there says it all.

IcyNeko
August 12th, 2006, 08:44 PM
I think its safe to say that the team will never obtain 2 more ZPM's. We've seen atlantis in battle, and we've seen what it would look like flying, entering hyperspace, and being destroyed.

Now its time for the writers to concentrate on making sure everyone knows and see's just how dumb and ignorant the team is. I dont think we've seen there worst mistakes yet.

So I guess "Operation this will likely end badly" is a go!

That right there says it all.
And this is where I get off the Atlantis Train. I'll see you guys at teh bottom of the ratings pit. I'll walk, if you don't mind. No need to take the Weir express.

ShadowMaat
August 12th, 2006, 08:45 PM
More like Operation FUBAR. 'Cos something can be frakked up beyond all reason but still proceed endlessly, but ending badly at least implies an end to the miseries we're enduring with Team Atlantis's stupidity.

Blower'sGate
August 12th, 2006, 08:48 PM
Just to close the "I don't want to offend anybody" subject. It was never in my intention to pass my opinion off as fact or to assume others have no right to their own opinions. I had to write my post as fast as I could so I don't think I mentioned these were my own opinion, I have zero facts. I can't proove anything that I said on my previous posts. It was more like a *lol* I love to say that :"subjective" observation and perception of the way I hope the writers will figure out to explain Weir's actions.

xxxxxxxxx

lily
August 12th, 2006, 09:21 PM
These are my initial thoughts after watching this epi once. Of course, this is just my opinion, and no offense is intented to those who disagree.

Here we go:

WOW! This epi was awesome. Puting all the s3 episodes in perspective, my rating so far goes as follows:

No Man's Land: 9/10
Misbegotten: 8/10
Irresistible: 9/10
Sateda: 10/10
Progeny: 10/10

Excellent. The best season so far.

In particular, regarding Progeny:

- The interaction between all the characters and team feeling is, once again, great.

- The visual effects were, once again, awesome. Loved the CGI of the Asuran city. And watching it fly was awesome

- Love the new enemy.
Before watching this epi I had seen some comments about being like Unnatural selection. Even though I don't watch SG-1 anymore, I used to watch it, and season 6 was one of my fave and most watched seasons, so I've seen "Unnatural selection" several times (one of my fave epis, not in my top fave list, but still one of my faves). In fact I've watched it many more times than episodes from other seasons. And I still don't get all the comments about this epi being a rip off of that one. Sure, since the Asurans are replicators, some similarities do exist (like the way they probe others' minds), and the way Niam showed Elizabeth their past. Not enough for me to even THINK this could be considered a rip off (I was really surprised when I read some comments about this). Some similarities? Yes. A rip off, nope (IMHO). I see Progeny as a complete different episode from Unnatural Selection. But, as they say, to each his/her own. The world would be such a boring place if we all thought the same :)

- Aaawww. I wanted to hug Shep. I didn't realize it was a dream until the very last moment.

I know I'll come up with detailed favorite moments after watching it again, but my top fave without a doubt is Shep's mind probe.

- shallow thoughts:

Shep rocks! <vbg>

Hope Elizabeth keeps her hair longer as she's wearing it this season. I didn't like her hairstyle in season 1, but I liked it in season 2, and I like this one even more.

birdieey
August 12th, 2006, 09:24 PM
Asurans: the Stargate Cylons?

God I hope not. At least the Cylons had Sharon.... the Asurans don't really have much.

Agreed.

Even though I've been told more than once that the Asurans were the intended Atlantis enemy by TBTB, I still can't help but feel this is a weak attempt to tap into the BSG hype.

Aside from that, I just don't feel that having replicators as the "big baddy" is a good idea.

For one, they are just too powerful (in theory anyway), we shouldn't be able to continually defeat them and if/when we do it should be by the skin of our teeth.

And for two, SGA is not the type of show that can properly explore the complexities inherent to the existence of android life forms, it's too fragmented. Unlike BSG which forces us to constantly examine our positions on the very nature of mechanical life forms, using Cyclons like Sharon and Six, on SGA I think the “go to” solution during conflict with the Asurans will always be "blowing them up", and that’s gonna get real boring real fast IMO.

I prefer the Wraith, or more accurately the Wraith from Season 1. Here’s an enemy that’s not fighting for vengeance or some silly idea of superiority but to simply survive and there’s tons of them, and they defeated the Ancients, and they’re beginning to fight amongst themselves and they’ve been *****ed with on a genetic level by people who think they have no right to exist….much more interesting in my opinion.

Oh and, how did they find the gate address for the Asurans? Are they just randomly trying address'? Or had someone else been there before.

smushybird
August 12th, 2006, 09:32 PM
Why would Weir ever go on a first contact situation?

I was wondering, too. I thought she was supposed to be the Gen. Hammond type character (though non-military) for Atlantis--the cool, collected boss staying behind to stay in charge and on top of all situations at the base. She's not part of the team, but it seems they're trying to expand her role in that direction. That didn't make sense in Progeny. I think it made her character actually seem weaker, because she didn't handle Oberoth well (no smart diplomat would have handled it that way--giving so much information that was surely need-to-know only, and ending the conversation with a nasty little snap at him personally.)

For the rest of the episode she was constantly the damsel in distress needing rescue by all the other characters. Even Rodney's more trained in self defense than she is. She didn't offer anything as a member of the away team. What really struck me the most was that moment when she was trying to talk Liam into going along with them and she had that line about him being able to ascend--there was the most manipulative gleam in her eye (did it come across that way to anyone else or was it just me? I'd like to know.)

She did better on her away trip in that second season ep with the society who fed their prisoners to the wraith (can't remember the episode name). She was strong without seeming cold and ruthless. Then they weakened her again with that nonsense about needing sedatives from Beckett (ever see Gen. Hammond sucking down pills? They don't do that to male characters).

I get the impression the writers just flat out do not know what to do with the female characters on this show.

xfkirsten
August 12th, 2006, 09:43 PM
I was wondering, too. I thought she was supposed to be the Gen. Hammond type character (though non-military) for Atlantis--the cool, collected boss staying behind to stay in charge and on top of all situations at the base.

Actually, I believe it was said very early on that they didn't want her to fall into the trap of just being the one left on the base to wave goodbye to everyone each episode like Hammond did. I can't remember now where I read that... I wanna say it came out during ComicCon 2004, but I can't recall for sure.

vaberella
August 12th, 2006, 09:43 PM
I was wondering, too. I thought she was supposed to be the Gen. Hammond type character (though non-military) for Atlantis--the cool, collected boss staying behind to stay in charge and on top of all situations at the base. She's not part of the team, but it seems they're trying to expand her role in that direction. That didn't make sense in Progeny. I think it made her character actually seem weaker, because she didn't handle Oberoth well (no smart diplomat would have handled it that way--giving so much information that was surely need-to-know only, and ending the conversation with a nasty little snap at him personally.)

For the rest of the episode she was constantly the damsel in distress needing rescue by all the other characters. Even Rodney's more trained in self defense than she is. She didn't offer anything as a member of the away team. What really struck me the most was that moment when she was trying to talk Liam into going along with them and she had that line about him being able to ascend--there was the most manipulative gleam in her eye (did it come across that way to anyone else or was it just me? I'd like to know.)

She did better on her away trip in that second season ep with the society who fed their prisoners to the wraith (can't remember the episode name). She was strong without seeming cold and ruthless. Then they weakened her again with that nonsense about needing sedatives from Beckett (ever see Gen. Hammond sucking down pills? They don't do that to male characters).

I get the impression the writers just flat out do not know what to do with the female characters on this show.


I wholeheartedly agree with you, but can't give you another green...as much as I would want.

The ep in question is Condemned and I thought she was good in that ep,and it was more realistic for her to accompany Lorne's team in my opinion. :)

It doesn't work for me to have the head of Atlantis, the head of Atlantis military, and the head of atlantis scientist all together in one go. I'm like that's a disaster waiting to happen. Just doesn't work for me. There should always be one head holding down the fort.

PG15
August 12th, 2006, 09:46 PM
Weir's a diplomat, remember?

Whether she's good or bad is up for debate, but that was her occupation before knowing about the Stargate (oooo, that rhymes!)

smushybird
August 12th, 2006, 10:31 PM
Actually, I believe it was said very early on that they didn't want her to fall into the trap of just being the one left on the base to wave goodbye to everyone each episode like Hammond did. I can't remember now where I read that... I wanna say it came out during ComicCon 2004, but I can't recall for sure.



It doesn't work for me to have the head of Atlantis, the head of Atlantis military, and the head of atlantis scientist all together in one go. I'm like that's a disaster waiting to happen. Just doesn't work for me. There should always be one head holding down the fort.


I agree--someone has to stay back and stay in charge. Weir's the leader (at least, that's how they refer to her :)), she's gotta be the stay-at-home mom. :D

If the writers are so set on 'shipping her with Sheppard (brrrr...) that they want to send her off-world with him, they'd do better to stay home and stick to exploring Atlantis itself for a few eps (and while I would really love to see some actual exploration of Atlantis, definitely not encouraging the 'ship :D).

The people who went to Atlantis were supposed to be Earth's best and brightest. Maybe it's because she was a political appointee...but Liz ain't living up to that. They could redeem her some next week, if she's smart and tough and decent--instead of the poor fragile flower needing rescue from everyone else or the evilly manipulative person she's become--but I'm not getting my hopes up. Her character's gone so far beyond the realm of decency, it's going to be a long trip back.

(She's starting to remind me of Mary Tyler Moore's character in Ordinary People...eek)

Lord Shiva
August 12th, 2006, 10:46 PM
Definitely. I would be ok with the repeat if this was a one-shot episode, but to use a recurring villain on Atlantis that was similar to a recurring villain on SG1 is too much. I want something completely different.

I don't think they are the same as the Milky Way's Replicators... they aren't made up of blocks, and there aren't any tiny Repli-Asurans running around in the shape of insects.

While Rodney called them Replicators, I think he said that in the sense of the original word... they are similar to our Replicators in the way that they can probe minds or are mechanical humans - but they don't seem to fall apart into little blocks or anything like that.

vaberella
August 12th, 2006, 11:11 PM
I agree--someone has to stay back and stay in charge. Weir's the leader (at least, that's how they refer to her :)), she's gotta be the stay-at-home mom. :D

If the writers are so set on 'shipping her with Sheppard (brrrr...) that they want to send her off-world with him, they'd do better to stay home and stick to exploring Atlantis itself for a few eps (and while I would really love to see some actual exploration of Atlantis, definitely not encouraging the 'ship :D).

The people who went to Atlantis were supposed to be Earth's best and brightest. Maybe it's because she was a political appointee...but Liz ain't living up to that. They could redeem her some next week, if she's smart and tough and decent--instead of the poor fragile flower needing rescue from everyone else or the evilly manipulative person she's become--but I'm not getting my hopes up. Her character's gone so far beyond the realm of decency, it's going to be a long trip back.

(She's starting to remind me of Mary Tyler Moore's character in Ordinary People...eek)


I don't know smushy. Redemption might be hard, my sis says she's in a mental institution for a reason, in next weeks ep. You never really turn out great when your in scenes like that. Look at Mulder in X-Files, he looked like he was gonna start throwing feces ala silence of the lambs. :D

But if they can do that, I'll give her props as I always do. And I'm not S/W the only way I'd ever be an S/W fan, is I have to see Ronon/Weir as possible ship on screen. Then I would ship anything and everything to end that. :D

VB

Gate gal
August 12th, 2006, 11:23 PM
I love the Replicators! I am so glad that Atlantis has another villian. The Wraith are cool, but it was time for another villian. I love that Weir went off world with the team. The scenes in Sheppherd's head were awesome. This was a great episode!

PegasusPrincess
August 12th, 2006, 11:54 PM
This episode had awesome special effects with the Asuran city, the ship flying etc, but I have to say, I'm a little disappointed with the Asurans as 'the new enemy'. I know they're not actually Replicators exactly, but they're too close enough for my liking. Do they 'consume' technology like the Milky Way Replicators to evolve?
Anyway, all I know is that it was a great episode for me and then bam! when Rodney said "they're replicators" in the cell, I was like poof! deflated.
I hope they don't do too many storylines with this - I already saw it on SG1 a couple years ago....

bluealien
August 13th, 2006, 01:35 AM
I was wondering, too. I thought she was supposed to be the Gen. Hammond type character (though non-military) for Atlantis--the cool, collected boss staying behind to stay in charge and on top of all situations at the base. She's not part of the team, but it seems they're trying to expand her role in that direction. That didn't make sense in Progeny. I think it made her character actually seem weaker, because she didn't handle Oberoth well (no smart diplomat would have handled it that way--giving so much information that was surely need-to-know only, and ending the conversation with a nasty little snap at him personally.)

For the rest of the episode she was constantly the damsel in distress needing rescue by all the other characters. Even Rodney's more trained in self defense than she is. She didn't offer anything as a member of the away team. What really struck me the most was that moment when she was trying to talk Liam into going along with them and she had that line about him being able to ascend--there was the most manipulative gleam in her eye (did it come across that way to anyone else or was it just me? I'd like to know.)

She did better on her away trip in that second season ep with the society who fed their prisoners to the wraith (can't remember the episode name). She was strong without seeming cold and ruthless. Then they weakened her again with that nonsense about needing sedatives from Beckett (ever see Gen. Hammond sucking down pills? They don't do that to male characters).

I get the impression the writers just flat out do not know what to do with the female characters on this show.

I agree - she seemed completely out of place in this ep and I think the writers are just trying to find something for her to do.

Her dipolmatic skills are appalling. She just storms in and makes her demands and when they are not met immediately she acts like a petulant child and storms off - after giving away vital information that put the teams life in danger and resulted in the destruction of the Asurans city, which was populated by millions.!!

I wish the writers would stay away from these moral, ethical type of eps because all they achieve is making the team look like condesending holier than thou, cold hearted killers who will stop at nothing to save their own skins. Couldn't Rodneys genius have come up with some " brilliant" plan like he normally does. I can't believe that he would be unable to reprogramme them. Couldn't Sheppard have contacted Atlantis and ordered them to evacuate as he did in his hallucination.

There were some lovely character moments but it never felt as genuine as the moments we had in Sateda. In that ep the team acted with courage and honour and for the first time in a long time I could see the bond between them and that they genuinally cared for each other. It didn't seem as strong here. The flying city was awesome and Sheppards hallucination was done well but overall the ep left me with a bad taste in my mouth and once again feeling sympathy for our "enemy".

Liam Kincaid
August 13th, 2006, 01:45 AM
This episode had awesome special effects with the Asuran city, the ship flying etc, but I have to say, I'm a little disappointed with the Asurans as 'the new enemy'. I know they're not actually Replicators exactly, but they're too close enough for my liking. Do they 'consume' technology like the Milky Way Replicators to evolve?
Anyway, all I know is that it was a great episode for me and then bam! when Rodney said "they're replicators" in the cell, I was like poof! deflated.
I hope they don't do too many storylines with this - I already saw it on SG1 a couple years ago....

This is way too true! It is the exact same story, right down to the betrayal of the Replicater who helps them to escape. The forshadowing at the end of the episode suggests that this betrayal will now lead to an even bigger threat. I hope TPTB don't pursue this story any further. Atlantis is supposed to be an SG-1 spin-off, not an SG-1 rerun!

Linwelin
August 13th, 2006, 02:26 AM
Fortunately, I don't even remember "unnatural selection"... :p I've only watched it once... :(

Thus, I really liked this episode, I had nothing to compare... :p And I also avoid spoilers, so I only knew there would be new ennemies during the season, but wasn't prepared to that ! :D

The flying city is an awsome scene, I 'm happy TPTB didn't choose to have Atlantis as first flying city in SGA.

At least, Rodney apologizes for something... and I'm very happy to see the replicators back, even if they're not those small machines they used to be in SG1... :o

Well, once again an episode I'll be happy to watch for another time. For me, the best this season so far, with "Sateda". And it's the episode that makes me come to the "Atlantis" section of the forum for the first time... :p

Liam Kincaid
August 13th, 2006, 03:02 AM
Okay, so the Lanteans programmed the the Asurans to be violently agressive, and also programmed them to never be able to harm an Atlantean, right? The Asuran leader was getting ready to destroy Atlantis, so obviously they were able to overcome the "do not harm a Lantean" part of their core programming. Why then would they need McKay's help to remove the violently agressive part of their core program? If they can change part of their core program by themselves, why can't they change the rest? And don't tell me that the reason is that there is a difference between destroying the city of Atlantis and harming a Lantean. From their mind probing, the Asurans know that humans, or at least some humans, are descendents of Atlanteans. So, harming humans ( at least humans with the Ancient gene) would violate their core program. And destroying Atlantis would definately have harmed humans with the Ancient gene.

Willow'sCat
August 13th, 2006, 03:34 AM
Well all on my little lonesome, but this was just barley an average episode IMO, other then the potential new big bad this offered nothing of real value. I didn't come away thinking we gained anything, can someone tell me what we did gain?

No ZPM
No new tech (unless McKay had a way of saving info about their programming)
No way to get anymore info on them
No new allies

Oh right yeah a new enemy. Well I guess they had to introduce them somehow I just thought they might be a little better then this, and heck RepliCarter was more frightening then these guys. :cool:

I think the Asurans may have learned more from the stupid people of Atlantis then they learnt from the Asurans, in fact I am pretty sure they did! :rolleyes: :cool:

Alright that aside; nice to see some banter continuing even if it does get a little old, glad Ronon had more then two words to say, nice to see Weir nearly get strangled *insert evil laugh* and nice to see Zelenka! :)

Roll on um... is it Common Ground? Tell me it isn't Real World. :( :S

Bossman
August 13th, 2006, 04:27 AM
In terms of interest towards the show, Progeny is basically the end of Atlantis. Let me explain why. In Progeny we got to see:

1. A Lantian City-Ship fly and travel through hyperspace.
2. The same Lantian City-Ship being destroyed.
3. An Asuran city that dwarfs Atlantis in size and grandeur.
4. The "Evil" side of an Ancient society, which can build as many ZPM's as it wants, thus basically having an unlimited power supply.
5. Atlantis being destroyed and John sacrificing himself, just like he said he would if needed in "Sateda".
6. A race that could destroy the Wraith at will - Speculation: I'm assuming that the Asuran plan is to release the "Hot Zone" virus (or a modified version of it) to kill all the Wraith in the Pegasus Galaxy, and possibly all the humans.
7. That the Ancients were actually morons and traitors: instead of treating the Asurans as allies (having them construct Aurora or God knows what type of ships off the assembly line for instance) they chose to destroy all of them (doing a p*ss poor job at it mind you) and then erasing every known record of their little experiment so that no one else would know that they screwed up big time.

Basically, for me at least, there's no reason to watch the show anymore...

I mean, seriously, what more could possibly happen to trump what has been already revealed in Progeny? We all know that in the end we're going to defeat the Wraith and the Asurans (even if the latter would have made for a great ally) and when we do, there will probably be "another new horrible and unspeakable enemy that will want to destroy us all - AGAIN".

Despite this, I will continue to watch the show, mostly because I want to see Acustus Kolya again, but IMHO the writers made a huge mistake with Progeny by revealing so many things at once.

Unamed
August 13th, 2006, 06:32 AM
excellent ep, best out of the two shows this season. And that scene of the ancient ships pounding the city...amazing

ShadowMaat
August 13th, 2006, 06:38 AM
The only reason Weir was there at all was to set up a later storyline. Otherwise she served no real purpose except to completely frack up the negotiations. Are we SURE she's a bona fide diplomat? She doesn't act like one.

CalmStorm
August 13th, 2006, 07:27 AM
Actually, I believe it was said very early on that they didn't want her to fall into the trap of just being the one left on the base to wave goodbye to everyone each episode like Hammond did. I can't remember now where I read that... I wanna say it came out during ComicCon 2004, but I can't recall for sure.

I think they also made mention of this during one of the "Behind the Gate" programs that aired prior to the start of the season. I'm glad to see Weir offworld and working with the team.

EDIT:


The only reason Weir was there at all was to set up a later storyline. Otherwise she served no real purpose except to completely frack up the negotiations. Are we SURE she's a bona fide diplomat? She doesn't act like one.

Perhaps her not acting like a diplomat is where her success in her job has come from. I have to say I loved her last line about suggesting that arrogance ran in the family. There are certain situations that just cannot be negotiated. I think it's a strength to recognize that for what it is. Weir could no more convince this arrogant leader than anyone on this board could convince some posters that the mods are not out to get them ;)

Tok'Ra Hostess
August 13th, 2006, 08:41 AM
I enjoyed the ep. Foresee lotsa MacKay whumpfic about his "torture" session... I wonder if it was a female repi that "probed" him.... ;)

And, ooh, boie, Hell hath no fury like a humanform replicator, scorned.

This should heat things up a bit. Not that I've thought the series needed extra heat; Atlantis has become my fav SG series. :)

gooner_diva
August 13th, 2006, 09:08 AM
The only reason Weir was there at all was to set up a later storyline. Otherwise she served no real purpose except to completely frack up the negotiations. Are we SURE she's a bona fide diplomat? She doesn't act like one.
Her presence off-world screamed Plot Device to me. Seriously, under what circumstance would they send all their senior staff to a planet they'd never visited before? I also find it hard to believe that an experienced negotiator like her would say things like "May I suggest [arrogance] runs in the family?" when speaking to a leader of an advanced civilisation. This isn't the first time Binder's tried to make her look/sound like a badass, either. I still cringe when I remember the scene in Condemned where she's threatening the Magistrate with guns. Woeful characterisation. Sheppard and McKay were arguing even more than usual at an even more inappropriate time, as for Teyla, since when is she familiar with phrases like "electromagnetic pulse"? So not only can she sense the Wraith, she can now also "sense" other things like someone lying or that monster in Epiphany. She needs her own unique identity, not be a rip-off certain Babylon 5 and The Next Generation characters... with Xena's fighting abilities.

The episode? A rewrite of Unnatural Selection, complete with First and Fifth. I understand the need to introduce a new enemy on SGA, but why piss on 10 years of established SG-1 canon to rehash an old enemy? One that wasn't terribly popular, mind you. Is this their idea of rewarding long-time loyalty to the Stargate franchise? Those who haven't seen SG-1 - great, they'll enjoy the episode. The rest will experience a deja vu, but we don't give a damn about that as long as there's cool CGI. :rolleyes:

The only good thing that's come out of this episode was seeing the city fly. Great stuff. Not sure what to think about next week's ep. SG-1's Legacy comes to mind, including a similar psychotic delusion and the puddle in the closet. Dear Lord.

55 days to S3 of BSG.

YodaMate
August 13th, 2006, 09:30 AM
Haven't read 99% of the thread so i'm sorry if there's repetition. Also, kept comfortable cause this is a long one, but hopefully rewarding.

I actually like the Asuran concept and this episode. It ties into some of the long running themes and continually evolving backstories that are at the heart of Stargate (both series are drawing on the same mythology and i really consider them two sides of the same coin). The two issues in particular are the Replicator/Nanites and ever so briefly, Ascension.

There are gaps in the Replicator storyline, some of which are potentially now filled in, and some that still remain (especially, how did they make their way out of the MW before meeting the Asgard).

Here's my take on it ; one of the those incredibly tricky challenges that even Ancients struggle at (e.g. the Arcturus project) is managing to create a nanite-based A.I that can balance benevolent and destructive elements. This issue first raised its head in the Pegasus galaxy. I suspect that the Asuran nanites were created as a delivery system capable of transforming Wraith into humans. To do so, the nanites had to aggressively modify target cells and replicate in massive numbers.

My pet theory on why the Ancients didn't hit the Wraith hard enough in the war is that they didn't want to annihilate a sentient race, instead they were too focused on helping them until it was too late. It was their hope that a nanite solution could bring peace. Even in the final stages of the war, the Ancients still probably valued Wraith lives more generously than the Tau'ri would.

This replication not only lead to the nanites forming collective networks as individual sentients and bigger collective networks as the Asuran race. Unfortunately, the required aggression turned them into a violent race trapped by the directives of their programming and the Ancients attempted to destroy them. Lacking the 'magic bullet' to 'fix' the Wraith, and lacking the infrastructure to force the Wraith back from every world they'd taken, the Altantians realised that eventually the Wraith's own hunger would consume much of their vast numbers. In the meantime, though they could maintain the siege indefinitely, they chose not to waste any more Wraith lives and evacuated Atlantis.

Their intent was that eventually an advanced race with the sufficient resources (such as a large fleet) that could force the Wraith back and rescue captive human populations would use Atlantis, and its technology as a base. This could only occur once the overwhelming (perhaps tens of thousands of hives) numbers of Wraith had been thinned out by their own hunger (to perhaps a few hundred). To this end, the Ancients left knowledge repositories in the Milky Way (once they realised humans had evolved again) to help an advanced race access their technology.

The downside of the plan was that this process could take centuries and in the meantime billions would die at the hands of the Wraith (literally :p ). At least one Ancient felt that the nanite plan could still be salvaged as long as a personality could be developed that was sentient, stable, capable of benevolence and still achieving the same aggressive task. Reece was the result, her knowledge restricted to the construction of 'safer' block-forms that she instructed to become Replicators during a malevolent mood.

The Replicators created nanite versions to imitate Reece, but the human-form networks were trapped, exactly like the Asurans, by the Replicator programming. They experimented with Fifth, who was a true imitation of Reece, and this created a sentient human-form with emotional capacity and the potential to be "good" or malevolent. In turn, he created RepliCarter with a copied consciousness and thus limited emotional capacity, but she was still trapped by Replicator programming and turned on him for his "emotional weakness".

In Progeny, we meet Liam (close enough). Unlike the human-form Replicators and fellow Asurans who are trapped by programming, he has the desire to overcome the programming and shows empathy (thus demonstrating limited emotional capacity), perhaps out of natural evolution. He hoped to achieve the sentience and choice that Fifth, with his unrestricted emotional capacity, once possessed. If achieved, he believes he could be a virtuous ally whilst still devoted to destroying the Wraith. In fact, he believes he could Ascend, an intriguing twist in the tale.

However, in full circle, the tragedy is that programming has once again won out and trapped Liam into opposition to the Atlantis expedition. For now, the human-form Asurans pose the same malevolent and dangerous threat as the angry Fifth once did. But it is possible that just maybe, hope exists that the programming can be overcome and the Asurans will come full circle and be the key to defeating the Wraith. This is great thematically, as Stargate Atlantis provides both further backstory and offers hope of overcoming the issues of Stargate SG-1.

aAnubiSs
August 13th, 2006, 10:22 AM
Maybe they should use their military advisors with more than when to salute. Using them to "proofread" the script for retarded errors would be nice. Sure they aren't writers, but they could atleast catch all the stupid mistakes that would never happen.

ShadowMaat
August 13th, 2006, 10:24 AM
Maybe they should use their military advisors with more than when to salute. Using them to "proofread" the script for retarded errors would be nice. Sure they aren't writers, but they could atleast catch all the stupid mistakes that would never happen.
I think the military advisors have given up advising TPTB on anything since it's obvious no one is listening.

vaberella
August 13th, 2006, 10:25 AM
I think the military advisors have given up advising TPTB on anything since it's obvious no one is listening.
For the first time in a long time. I bloody well agree with this post. :mckay: Had to green it!!:D

The Ori
August 13th, 2006, 11:26 AM
Hmm not 100% sure about the CGI but unbelievable ep though, reminded me of SG-1 season 6's 'Unnatural Selection, when they first introduced the human form reps and Fifth.

The Ori
August 13th, 2006, 11:34 AM
Haven't read 99% of the thread so i'm sorry if there's repetition. Also, kept comfortable cause this is a long one, but hopefully rewarding.

I actually like the Asuran concept and this episode. It ties into some of the long running themes and continually evolving backstories that are at the heart of Stargate (both series are drawing on the same mythology and i really consider them two sides of the same coin). The two issues in particular are the Replicator/Nanites and ever so briefly, Ascension.

There are gaps in the Replicator storyline, some of which are potentially now filled in, and some that still remain (especially, how did they make their way out of the MW before meeting the Asgard).

Here's my take on it ; one of the those incredibly tricky challenges that even Ancients struggle at (e.g. the Arcturus project) is managing to create a nanite-based A.I that can balance benevolent and destructive elements. This issue first raised its head in the Pegasus galaxy. I suspect that the Asuran nanites were created as a delivery system capable of transforming Wraith into humans. To do so, the nanites had to aggressively modify target cells and replicate in massive numbers.

My pet theory on why the Ancients didn't hit the Wraith hard enough in the war is that they didn't want to annihilate a sentient race, instead they were too focused on helping them until it was too late. It was their hope that a nanite solution could bring peace. Even in the final stages of the war, the Ancients still probably valued Wraith lives more generously than the Tau'ri would.

This replication not only lead to the nanites forming collective networks as individual sentients and bigger collective networks as the Asuran race. Unfortunately, the required aggression turned them into a violent race trapped by the directives of their programming and the Ancients attempted to destroy them. Lacking the 'magic bullet' to 'fix' the Wraith, and lacking the infrastructure to force the Wraith back from every world they'd taken, the Altantians realised that eventually the Wraith's own hunger would consume much of their vast numbers. In the meantime, though they could maintain the siege indefinitely, they chose not to waste any more Wraith lives and evacuated Atlantis.

Their intent was that eventually an advanced race with the sufficient resources (such as a large fleet) that could force the Wraith back and rescue captive human populations would use Atlantis, and its technology as a base. This could only occur once the overwhelming (perhaps tens of thousands of hives) numbers of Wraith had been thinned out by their own hunger (to perhaps a few hundred). To this end, the Ancients left knowledge repositories in the Milky Way (once they realised humans had evolved again) to help an advanced race access their technology.

The downside of the plan was that this process could take centuries and in the meantime billions would die at the hands of the Wraith (literally :p ). At least one Ancient felt that the nanite plan could still be salvaged as long as a personality could be developed that was sentient, stable, capable of benevolence and still achieving the same aggressive task. Reece was the result, her knowledge restricted to the construction of 'safer' block-forms that she instructed to become Replicators during a malevolent mood.

The Replicators created nanite versions to imitate Reece, but the human-form networks were trapped, exactly like the Asurans, by the Replicator programming. They experimented with Fifth, who was a true imitation of Reece, and this created a sentient human-form with emotional capacity and the potential to be "good" or malevolent. In turn, he created RepliCarter with a copied consciousness and thus limited emotional capacity, but she was still trapped by Replicator programming and turned on him for his "emotional weakness".

In Progeny, we meet Liam (close enough). Unlike the human-form Replicators and fellow Asurans who are trapped by programming, he has the desire to overcome the programming and shows empathy (thus demonstrating limited emotional capacity), perhaps out of natural evolution. He hoped to achieve the sentience and choice that Fifth, with his unrestricted emotional capacity, once possessed. If achieved, he believes he could be a virtuous ally whilst still devoted to destroying the Wraith. In fact, he believes he could Ascend, an intriguing twist in the tale.

However, in full circle, the tragedy is that programming has once again won out and trapped Liam into opposition to the Atlantis expedition. For now, the human-form Asurans pose the same malevolent and dangerous threat as the angry Fifth once did. But it is possible that just maybe, hope exists that the programming can be overcome and the Asurans will come full circle and be the key to defeating the Wraith. This is great thematically, as Stargate Atlantis provides both further backstory and offers hope of overcoming the issues of Stargate SG-1.

Just read it, nicely said. I was going to say the exact same thing!! ;)

Mitchell82
August 13th, 2006, 01:24 PM
I thought this was an excellent ep. I loved the new take on the Replicators and it didn't seem like a rehash to me. great ep IMHO sorry that some were disapointed.

Mitchell82
August 13th, 2006, 01:28 PM
Please tell me I'm not the only one who liked this ep. I thought it was excellent and I hate all this doom and gloom talk b/c some eps might have a similarity to SG-1. Now come on this was a great ep and I have great hopes for both shows.

xfkirsten
August 13th, 2006, 01:30 PM
Perhaps her not acting like a diplomat is where her success in her job has come from. I have to say I loved her last line about suggesting that arrogance ran in the family. There are certain situations that just cannot be negotiated. I think it's a strength to recognize that for what it is. Weir could no more convince this arrogant leader than anyone on this board could convince some posters that the mods are not out to get them ;)

I think you make a very good point here. I think it's pretty clear that the Asurans had NO desire to negotiate.

verbalkint
August 13th, 2006, 01:32 PM
The Asurans were the ones who made the virus. That is their "plan" and "advice". To destroy the Wraith's food supply.
Not so fast my friend! If that was indeed their plan they would have redistributed the "hot zone virus" in the 10,000 years since they believed Atlantis to be destroyed by the wraith. Funny thing is that since they believed Atlantis to be destroyed by the wraith 10,000 years ago I wonder how long ago it was when the Lanteans tried to wipe the Asurans out. The Lanteans still had a lot of warships at the time so I think that is an interesting question I'm surprised Weir didn't ask.

mindfire
August 13th, 2006, 01:35 PM
I enjoyed this episode, I am looking forward to see how big of a threat the Asurans will be especially if they build another city ship.

kes
August 13th, 2006, 01:43 PM
I didnt ready any posts I just had to write this:
I just saw this ep and let me tell you what a rip off! This series has nothing new to offer! They better come up with a really cool ,SG1 free, ep or I'm not wasting my time with this anymore. Its one thing when SG1 is repetitive, I mean they are coping themselfs but when a spin off copies its "mother" show that just points to lack of story and imagination. What a waste of resourses and time that could improve SG1.
Well glad I got that out, sorry if I sterped on any ones shoes. Wast my intetion.

evangeline
August 13th, 2006, 01:44 PM
Criticize me all you want but I'm really sick of the Replicators. That's one scenario that's been beaten to death. They're pesky little buggers (pun intended) and I'm really bored with the whole story. Who cares? Destroy them and move on with the story. I'd like to hear more about the Ancients and getting rid of the Wraith.:jack: :sam: :beckett:

But I will say this: McKay and Shepherd are really funny in this episode. Whatevery happened to the Crosby/Hope "On the Road" scenario? Now that's funny. Or how about McKay and Ronan on the road. They were hysterical in the season opener!!!

bluealien
August 13th, 2006, 01:50 PM
I think you make a very good point here. I think it's pretty clear that the Asurans had NO desire to negotiate.


Well that didn't seem very clear to me - no clearer than Weir having no desire to negotiate either.

She gave up after 5 minutes and decides to obliterate a whole civilization because they were a threat to Atlantis. Altantis has 200 people and there were millions of Asurans. Is this what we are to expect from Weir and the team in future. Anyone that poses any threat to them - give up diplomacy after 5 minutes and just wipe them out. What if it is a planet of billions next time. Why not contact and evacuate Atlantis. Rodney was able to change the Asurans programme once - why not again. The majority of the Azurans had lived in peace for thousands of years but after the team makes first contact they all end up being destroyed - so who are the more agressive race here. Why did Weir offer up the information about Atlantis in the first place.
I guess I'm not fond of episodes where we just obliterate civilizations at the drop of a hat. And its interesting that Rodney can always come up with a convenient solution and pull a miracle out of his hat when Atlantis is in danger but isn't able to make a permanent change to the programming of the Asurans.

Mitchell82
August 13th, 2006, 02:11 PM
I didnt ready any posts I just had to write this:
I just saw this ep and let me tell you what a rip off! This series has nothing new to offer! They better come up with a really cool ,SG1 free, ep or I'm not wasting my time with this anymore. Its one thing when SG1 is repetitive, I mean they are coping themselfs but when a spin off copies its "mother" show that just points to lack of story and imagination. What a waste of resourses and time that could improve SG1.
Well glad I got that out, sorry if I sterped on any ones shoes. Wast my intetion.
I must say I have to disagree. This was not a ripoff. They took an established enemy and did a compleate 360. They reinvented them IMHO and I think they are alot worse than the Replicators we aere used to. We finally know where they came from and i see great promise to this storyline.

xfkirsten
August 13th, 2006, 02:13 PM
Well that didn't seem very clear to me - no clearer than Weir having no desire to negotiate either.

She gave up after 5 minutes and decides to obliterate a whole civilization because they were a threat to Atlantis. Altantis has 200 people and there were millions of Asurans. Is this what we are to expect from Weir and the team in future. Anyone that poses any threat to them - give up diplomacy after 5 minutes and just wipe them out. What if it is a planet of billions next time. Why not contact and evacuate Atlantis. Rodney was able to change the Asurans programme once - why not again. The majority of the Azurans had lived in peace for thousands of years but after the team makes first contact they all end up being destroyed - so who are the more agressive race here. Why did Weir offer up the information about Atlantis in the first place.
I guess I'm not fond of episodes where we just obliterate civilizations at the drop of a hat. And its interesting that Rodney can always come up with a convenient solution and pull a miracle out of his hat when Atlantis is in danger but isn't able to make a permanent change to the programming of the Asurans.

Apparently we just see things differently, then. Because he wouldn't give her the time of day, let alone a serious offer.

You're ignoring the element of time here. It took time for Rodney to re-write the programming in the first place. When the Asurans had woken back up and were above Atlantis, he didn't exactly have time to rewrite their code again.

Why did she offer up the information on Atlantis in the first place? First of all, I don't recall her telling Oberoth it was Atlantis - just that it was of Lantean design. What he got from there, he got by force. Secondly, it was a bargaining chip. Oberoth looks down his nose at them and won't negotiate, and so as a last-ditch effort at trying to gain his attention to start negotiations, she admits that they are living in a Lantean city. In hindsight, no, it didn't turn out well (and the show would be boring as hell if it did). But when faced with the prospect of losing such a powerful ally, I think she weighed the potential benefit (the gain of access to many ZPMs and advanced technology and a powerful ally) against the potential cost (knowledge of the existence of their city) and made a decision. Personally, if I were in her place, I would have done the same thing. It was a gamble, though, and unfortunately, she lost.

As for wiping out millions, I won't argue that it was morally dubious. But I do think that it's more interesting from a storytelling perspective that way. They may be the protagonists, but no one ever said that they had to make the best moral choices all the time. I find it a lot more interesting when they don't, myself.

CalmStorm
August 13th, 2006, 02:16 PM
Well that didn't seem very clear to me - no clearer than Weir having no desire to negotiate either.

She gave up after 5 minutes and decides to obliterate a whole civilization because they were a threat to Atlantis. Altantis has 200 people and there were millions of Asurans. Is this what we are to expect from Weir and the team in future. Anyone that poses any threat to them - give up diplomacy after 5 minutes and just wipe them out. What if it is a planet of billions next time. Why not contact and evacuate Atlantis. Rodney was able to change the Asurans programme once - why not again. The majority of the Azurans had lived in peace for thousands of years but after the team makes first contact they all end up being destroyed - so who are the more agressive race here. Why did Weir offer up the information about Atlantis in the first place.
I guess I'm not fond of episodes where we just obliterate civilizations at the drop of a hat. And its interesting that Rodney can always come up with a convenient solution and pull a miracle out of his hat when Atlantis is in danger but isn't able to make a permanent change to the programming of the Asurans.

McKay did what he could in the time he had available. He was completely unsure if his plan would work, and if it did, how long it would work. If you were in a similar position and had exhausted all options, would you allow yourself, your team, and your entire expedition to be destroyed simply because the other side had a larger population. If that is the case, then we have been doing a grave injustice to the wraith. Just stand aside and let them feed on you and your team, because it is cruel to starve and entire civilization. Never mind that they are intent on destroying you and all of your kind, they have greater numbers so allow their civilization to thrive.

As far as Weir ending the negotiations after five minutes, at the time she had no idea that was the end. As Niam was escorting her and the team to the gate she was talking about contacting him through the gate again at a later time. It was clear in her last meeting with Asuran leader that he had no respect for her, or her people, and that his arrogance completely blinded him. He had no intention of entertaining any more talks with her. He made it clear that he thought of her, and the other visitors they had received as nothing more than pests. There was little she could do to change that attitude, and no reason wasting time and effort on something that was that obvious.

Weir also had new insight into the type of civilization it was with the help of Niam and their little trip to the past to explain how and why they were created. Perhaps she saw and knew what they were up against, as was evident in her conversation with the group afterwards. They felt betrayed and were tossed aside, whereas Weir and company and the others were the favored ones. How much clearer is it now that the Asurans plan on destroying Atlantis simply for retribution. The ancients have all since ascended and the Asurans are now aware of this. However, their civilization is content with destroying a completely neutral party just because they inhabit the old digs of their creators.

Also, they did not destroy and entire civilization. They destroyed an entire city/ship headed for Atlantis with the intention of destroying it, which is no different than destroying wraith hives ships. Greater numbers does not equate to allowing someone, or some group, destroy you. As we learned from Niam, the others were quite well, had learned of what he had done and were in the process of reseting him to suit their needs.

JohnDuh
August 13th, 2006, 02:20 PM
The theory is that one of the ancients who designed the Asuran nanites were one of the ones who returned to Earth and travelled through the stargate to another planet where he created Reese who was capable of creating nanites herself and control them. Reese then created the replicators as toys and the rest is history.
YOUR theory, they didn't say anything like that in the episode. Just someone else who build a machine - there are only so many ways you can build a bicycle.

JohnDuh
August 13th, 2006, 02:29 PM
The CGI was brilliant, especially in the flashback sequence detailing the birth of the Asurans. The city was absolutely beautiful and simply felt huge in scale. The story was much more engaging that many episodes we've had since S2.

I missed something flying past out there, so it didn't just look like a big picture outside the window. But when the city moved i have the same problem as i always have with them "Oh, this big and heavy thing should move really slowly, but we don't have time for that so we'll just speed it up and hope nobody notices!" - that's so cheap. If you have a military flick where a hangar ship has to leave port you don't just speed it up - people would laugh you out of the cinema - you CUT your way out it, you EDIT your way out if it - which is what they should do there -instead they just pick the easy way each time. Any item regardless of size has the bulk of a thimble.

BubblingOverWithIdeas
August 13th, 2006, 02:40 PM
Is it just me or does the Ancients seem no better than anyone else?

Quite. Every enemy or problem the Stargate program has faced is connected to the Ancients. The Ori are an off-shoot of them. The Goa'uld technology is all plundered from their ruins. In fact, they likely created the Goa'uld by accident (along with all other Milky Way Galaxy species) when they used the Dakara device to recreate life in the galaxy. They created the Wraith through negligence by seeding humans on the iratus bug planet, allowing the bugs to feed on humans and incorporate human DNA, thus evolving into the Wraith. They intentionally created the Asurans, and obviously Reese and her Replicator creations were the result of a post-Atlantis Ancient scientist trying to perfect the technology.

BubblingOverWithIdeas
August 13th, 2006, 02:42 PM
YOUR theory, they didn't say anything like that in the episode. Just someone else who build a machine - there are only so many ways you can build a bicycle.

Actually that theory came along with the official spoilers for the episode, making it likely that the scenes where the characters discussed it were cut.

JohnDuh
August 13th, 2006, 02:59 PM
Yes, well, once again it's whatever's convenient for the plot instead of what's logical. *sigh* Fifth is exampt from the freeze command

Because Rodney had changed the code.



, but is easily reset by Reps far back on the homeworld.


But not that part.

vaberella
August 13th, 2006, 03:11 PM
Well that didn't seem very clear to me - no clearer than Weir having no desire to negotiate either.

She gave up after 5 minutes and decides to obliterate a whole civilization because they were a threat to Atlantis. Altantis has 200 people and there were millions of Asurans. Is this what we are to expect from Weir and the team in future. Anyone that poses any threat to them - give up diplomacy after 5 minutes and just wipe them out. What if it is a planet of billions next time. Why not contact and evacuate Atlantis. Rodney was able to change the Asurans programme once - why not again. The majority of the Azurans had lived in peace for thousands of years but after the team makes first contact they all end up being destroyed - so who are the more agressive race here. Why did Weir offer up the information about Atlantis in the first place.
I guess I'm not fond of episodes where we just obliterate civilizations at the drop of a hat. And its interesting that Rodney can always come up with a convenient solution and pull a miracle out of his hat when Atlantis is in danger but isn't able to make a permanent change to the programming of the Asurans.


There is more to this too BA which hasn't even been brought up here...No one seems to have brought up the fact that, if Weir was so worried about her people in Atlantis, why she didn't ask for her people to be evacuated before the city ship showed up?! Or even have McKay relay an information to her people on Atlantis, just to be on the safe side.

I know Weir cares about her people, but we saw no real exclamaition of that, just a want to see this city ship and its people gone. If the people were more important than Atlantis, we might have seen more of a push for their well being, maybe giving time for Mc's programming to work. Sigh!

That would have been just an added failsafe. Plus it would be interesting to see how that would have went if she did. Oberoth clearly didn't kill those 5, and put them in some nice quarters rather than the prison later on, rather hospitable.

ShadowMaat
August 13th, 2006, 03:14 PM
Because Rodney had changed the code.



But not that part.
And that's not plot devicey how?

Rodney changed Fifth's base code- he took out the agression, made him so he's "not like the others" and conveniently left him immune to the freeze command, but he's still succeptible to being rewritten by other replicators? What happened to the "we can't change our own base code" bit? If his base code was changed by outside sources, it shouldn't have been possible for him to be rebooted. And if he WAS rebooted, wouldn't he still be Fifth-like with Fifth's... calmer tendencies? Or was he reset to a much earlier version of himself? Or was his personality ALSO wiped out? And how come it took so long for the reboot to take place? If the reps can communicate instantaneously across vast distances, shouldn't they have known something was wrong a lot faster?

uknesvuinng
August 13th, 2006, 03:25 PM
I missed something flying past out there, so it didn't just look like a big picture outside the window. But when the city moved i have the same problem as i always have with them "Oh, this big and heavy thing should move really slowly, but we don't have time for that so we'll just speed it up and hope nobody notices!" - that's so cheap. If you have a military flick where a hangar ship has to leave port you don't just speed it up - people would laugh you out of the cinema - you CUT your way out it, you EDIT your way out if it - which is what they should do there -instead they just pick the easy way each time. Any item regardless of size has the bulk of a thimble.

Well, if one presumes that the Ancients were silly enough to use drives that depended solely on mechanical energy pushing the city, the city should have never moved at all, as the combustion required would have destroyed the surrounding city. Most likely, they used a drive similar and most likely more advanced than the drive in a Jaffa Glider, which negates inertia. Negating intertia means there's a lot less energy required to move a mass. A dust speck colliding with a planet-sans-inertia would move the planet at the same speed the dust was travelling.

JohnDuh
August 13th, 2006, 03:26 PM
Don't forget about Menace... That girl was supposed to have created the replicators... not the ancients... But I suppose TPTB have an explaination for that...


Yeah, and we heard it in the episode: Its not the same creatures.

Liam Kincaid
August 13th, 2006, 03:40 PM
Actually that theory came along with the official spoilers for the episode, making it likely that the scenes where the characters discussed it were cut.

They must have decided to cut those scenes when they realized that this theory wold create a major plot hole. Reese created the Milky Way Replicaters. She was not a Replicater herself. Therefore, there can be no direct connection to the Asurans. Unless, maybe, Reese had some sort of access to the Atlantis Database somehow. And she would need access to a deleted portion of the database at that.

siXbrownSnakes2
August 13th, 2006, 03:44 PM
And that's not plot devicey how?

Rodney changed Fifth's base code- he took out the agression, made him so he's "not like the others" and conveniently left him immune to the freeze command, but he's still succeptible to being rewritten by other replicators? What happened to the "we can't change our own base code" bit? If his base code was changed by outside sources, it shouldn't have been possible for him to be rebooted. And if he WAS rebooted, wouldn't he still be Fifth-like with Fifth's... calmer tendencies? Or was he reset to a much earlier version of himself? Or was his personality ALSO wiped out? And how come it took so long for the reboot to take place? If the reps can communicate instantaneously across vast distances, shouldn't they have known something was wrong a lot faster?

I'm just wondering your personal opinion on this because I agree with you--but if Niam hadn't been "reset" by the others... would you have liked this episode any better?

Klenotka
August 13th, 2006, 03:45 PM
Am I the only one who thinks that this "Unnatural selection" thing was done on purpose? Like the link? The end was exactly the same, even the music. I think it was on purpose, it wasn´t just coincidence.

And to the episode? I liked it, I really did. Great flying city, the team working together. I have only some problems with Weir but it was told here before so I don´t want to repeat them.

kes
August 13th, 2006, 04:06 PM
I must say I have to disagree. This was not a ripoff. They took an established enemy and did a compleate 360. They reinvented them IMHO and I think they are alot worse than the Replicators we aere used to. We finally know where they came from and i see great promise to this storyline.
I dont recall them saying that an ancient later must have built Reese let alone that it was an ancient that built her. But regerdless they need they're own enemies. Their own stories. At least fror me to like this series.

Edit: And again one dude that is more human. At least with Fifth it made sense, they changed his program. The new guys are all suppose to be violent.
And why did he all of a sudden became violent? The other must have changed him to his original code, right? Thats all they could do if they couldnt change their original code. So if he, dispite having the violent program, wasnt violent...you know why did he all of a sudden attack Dr.Wier?

poilo7895
August 13th, 2006, 04:08 PM
:mckayanime18: i thinck this was a great esped but why did the just tacke all of the zpm and run to the jumper bay becasse of chose they conld with one actve drone,:bratac13: if a drone epodes in the drone bay of the city ship even with out the zpm the ship would be use less becse with out zpms the ship has no power for beam weapns and no drone it would be swead ya they would have jumpers but the are no macke for a drone and with no power no stargate ,:jack_new_anime25: and for they tought that if they had no zpms no power the team would die with out air even the acents would of not been stuiped enfeth not to have emes power reseves for lifesport and the haul of enen a city ship would hav been to hold air for atied ten mients :samanime15: [reamer that the dreaus thay thow hyperspace with out sheild up]:tealcanime23: plety of time to get to the jumper bay :zelenka:

doylefan22
August 13th, 2006, 04:22 PM
And why did he all of a sudden became violent? The other must have changed him to his original code, right? Thats all they could do if they couldnt change their original code. So if he, dispite having the violent program, wasnt violent...you know why did he all of a sudden attack Dr.Wier?

Earlier on in the episode he said that over years he had evolved to repress his violent nature - taught himself to control it, so to speak. The others reverted him to factory settings and that 'knowledge' was lost.

smushybird
August 13th, 2006, 04:28 PM
Apparently we just see things differently, then. Because he wouldn't give her the time of day, let alone a serious offer.


A serious offer? She had nothing to offer in return. It was all about what he could do for her, and she seemed to think that she just had to smile and ask and all would be delivered to her because she's Weir and the leader. Um, hello, I don't think so. Oberoth's (Now you guys have got me thinking of him as Oberon :D) reaction was perfectly reasonable, in light of the fact that she came there as she herself said "in friendship" and then immediately she's making all these demands like a toddler in a toy store? I just had to laugh. Weir, honey, that's not how trade works. And then when she doesn't get her way, she loses her cool with him? Uh uh. Sorry, that's not diplomacy. Well, maybe in George W. Bush's world... :D But not in the normal, sane one.

I do agree with posters who've said her presence was plot device, made no sense, and was worse than useless. Sheppard could have handled everything she "handled" and probably not have given away as much information as she did. The way she's written, she's just way out of her depth.
She may have started out as a character with potential but the writers seem at a loss with her now and they need to get together, write character sketches, do something to straighten the mess out and make sure the characters are consistent and believable within the context of what we know about them so far.

kes
August 13th, 2006, 04:29 PM
Earlier on in the episode he said that over years he had evolved to repress his violent nature - taught himself to control it, so to speak. The others reverted him to factory settings and that 'knowledge' was lost.
Hmm didnt catch that. Ok makes sense I guess in a way.

stewsith
August 13th, 2006, 04:55 PM
Great Episode. When they looked out of the window and first saw the city i was sat there saying "woooooooow" to the television. I cant belive they blew up a city ship! For some reason It seemed all too easy and I still think they might be under the mind probe still.

ShadowMaat
August 13th, 2006, 05:16 PM
I'm just wondering your personal opinion on this because I agree with you--but if Niam hadn't been "reset" by the others... would you have liked this episode any better?
I don't know. I think it would depend on the communication abilities of the reps. Letting Fifth/Niam "live" would at least keep it a few beats off of following in the footsteps of Unnatural Selection, but if the reps could piggyback on Niam's senses he'd still be a threat to Atlantis. ...But then again, it isn't like the reps don't know everything about the city already anyway. :rolleyes: *shrug*

The whole second half of the ep was rather clunky, IMO, and I think it would take more than Niam's survival to "fix" it for me.

xfkirsten
August 13th, 2006, 05:22 PM
A serious offer? She had nothing to offer in return. It was all about what he could do for her, and she seemed to think that she just had to smile and ask and all would be delivered to her because she's Weir and the leader. Um, hello, I don't think so. Oberoth's (Now you guys have got me thinking of him as Oberon :D) reaction was perfectly reasonable, in light of the fact that she came there as she herself said "in friendship" and then immediately she's making all these demands like a toddler in a toy store? I just had to laugh. Weir, honey, that's not how trade works. And then when she doesn't get her way, she loses her cool with him? Uh uh. Sorry, that's not diplomacy. Well, maybe in George W. Bush's world... :D But not in the normal, sane one.

I don't see her acting as childish as you say, not even close. Of course she had nothing more to offer than being an ally - these people had harnessed almost the full power of Ancient technology, what more could they offer? And I think she realized that, and she was about to head back through the gate with the team when they were taken prisoner.

PG15
August 13th, 2006, 05:54 PM
Okay, so the Lanteans programmed the the Asurans to be violently agressive, and also programmed them to never be able to harm an Atlantean, right? The Asuran leader was getting ready to destroy Atlantis, so obviously they were able to overcome the "do not harm a Lantean" part of their core programming. Why then would they need McKay's help to remove the violently agressive part of their core program? If they can change part of their core program by themselves, why can't they change the rest? And don't tell me that the reason is that there is a difference between destroying the city of Atlantis and harming a Lantean. From their mind probing, the Asurans know that humans, or at least some humans, are descendents of Atlanteans. So, harming humans ( at least humans with the Ancient gene) would violate their core program. And destroying Atlantis would definately have harmed humans with the Ancient gene.

There is a difference between Lantian and their descendents. Would you call a native American an Asian? Because that's where they were originally from.

So the Asurans had no qualms with destroying Atlantis with all hands onboard.


This is way too true! It is the exact same story, right down to the betrayal of the Replicater who helps them to escape.

He was trying to kill Weir. They were acting in defense.


Her presence off-world screamed Plot Device to me. Seriously, under what circumstance would they send all their senior staff to a planet they'd never visited before?

How about a world of living Ancients? You know, the reason why the Stargate program exists?

Mitchell82
August 13th, 2006, 07:22 PM
There is a difference between Lantian and their descendents. Would you call a native American an Asian? Because that's where they were originally from.

So the Asurans had no qualms with destroying Atlantis with all hands onboard.



He was trying to kill Weir. They were acting in defense.



How about a world of living Ancients? You know, the reason why the Stargate program exists?
I agree with everything you said. This was a great ep and I can't wait to see where they take this.

verbalkint
August 13th, 2006, 07:39 PM
Her presence off-world screamed Plot Device to me. Seriously, under what circumstance would they send all their senior staff to a planet they'd never visited before? I also find it hard to believe that an experienced negotiator like her would say things like "May I suggest [arrogance] runs in the family?" when speaking to a leader of an advanced civilisation. This isn't the first time Binder's tried to make her look/sound like a badass, either. I still cringe when I remember the scene in Condemned where she's threatening the Magistrate with guns. Woeful characterisation. Sheppard and McKay were arguing even more than usual at an even more inappropriate time, as for Teyla, since when is she familiar with phrases like "electromagnetic pulse"? So not only can she sense the Wraith, she can now also "sense" other things like someone lying or that monster in Epiphany. She needs her own unique identity, not be a rip-off certain Babylon 5 and The Next Generation characters... with Xena's fighting abilities.

The episode? A rewrite of Unnatural Selection, complete with First and Fifth. I understand the need to introduce a new enemy on SGA, but why piss on 10 years of established SG-1 canon to rehash an old enemy? One that wasn't terribly popular, mind you. Is this their idea of rewarding long-time loyalty to the Stargate franchise? Those who haven't seen SG-1 - great, they'll enjoy the episode. The rest will experience a deja vu, but we don't give a damn about that as long as there's cool CGI. :rolleyes:

The only good thing that's come out of this episode was seeing the city fly. Great stuff. Not sure what to think about next week's ep. SG-1's Legacy comes to mind, including a similar psychotic delusion and the puddle in the closet. Dear Lord.

55 days to S3 of BSG.
As to the part about Teyla sensing "feelings" I think its important to note that she's never actually says she can read other people's emotions or minds but rather I'd like to point out that over 70% of communication is non-verbal and she has had to learn such things since their culture have had frequent trade relations with many different worlds. If you don't develop a sense about things like trading for proper value and when someone is being forward with you it will all end very badly.

AutumnDream
August 13th, 2006, 07:43 PM
I can't believe you guys are talking about this episode. I don't think it was even worth discussing. If The Real World isn't much, much better than this I'll probably stop watching Atlantis unless it's a Genii episode. I'll keep watching SG-1 because it still amuses me, even though I thought I liked Atlantis way more. My friends who are going to university far away are back home for a couple months and staying in to watch this kind of writing is definitely not worth foregoing a night out with them. If it were better, we'd probably all watch before going out, since they are (read: were) fans too.

verbalkint
August 13th, 2006, 07:49 PM
And that's not plot devicey how?

Rodney changed Fifth's base code- he took out the agression, made him so he's "not like the others" and conveniently left him immune to the freeze command, but he's still succeptible to being rewritten by other replicators? What happened to the "we can't change our own base code" bit? If his base code was changed by outside sources, it shouldn't have been possible for him to be rebooted. And if he WAS rebooted, wouldn't he still be Fifth-like with Fifth's... calmer tendencies? Or was he reset to a much earlier version of himself? Or was his personality ALSO wiped out? And how come it took so long for the reboot to take place? If the reps can communicate instantaneously across vast distances, shouldn't they have known something was wrong a lot faster?
Maybe it was just me but when Niam turned the corner after all the other Asurans were froze it seemed like it startled Weir and the team as if they didn't expect him to be unfrozen. I would have to watch the episode again but thats the way it seemed initially.

ShadowMaat
August 13th, 2006, 07:50 PM
Did you see the preview for TRW? Particularly the bit where Daniel Weir opens a door and sees the event horizon?
Looks to me like the blatant recycling/thievery of SG-1 elements is only going to get WORSE.

Me? I plan to watch Psych instead. Much more fun and much less pretension.

Mitchell82
August 13th, 2006, 07:53 PM
Did you see the preview for TRW? Particularly the bit where Daniel Weir opens a door and sees the event horizon?
Looks to me like the blatant recycling/thievery of SG-1 elements is only going to get WORSE.

Me? I plan to watch Psych instead. Much more fun and much less pretension.
It's offical you have turned troll and are betraying Stargate. If you can't see past theese little things we dont want you!:jack_new_anime18:

ShadowMaat
August 13th, 2006, 08:01 PM
It's offical you have turned troll and are betraying Stargate. If you can't see past theese little things we dont want you!:jack_new_anime18:
Fair enough. TPTB betrayed everything Atlantis once stood for (or at least could have stood for) so I'm simply returning the favor. ;)

Liam Kincaid
August 13th, 2006, 08:16 PM
Did you see the preview for TRW? Particularly the bit where Daniel Weir opens a door and sees the event horizon?
Looks to me like the blatant recycling/thievery of SG-1 elements is only going to get WORSE.

Me? I plan to watch Psych instead. Much more fun and much less pretension.

Both SGA and Psych are repeated, why would you have to choose? I watch them both.

ShadowMaat
August 13th, 2006, 08:25 PM
Both SGA and Psych are repeated, why would you have to choose? I watch them both.
Because SGA looks like it won't be worth watching AT ALL this week. But yeah, sometimes I catch the reruns of Psych.

kes
August 13th, 2006, 09:02 PM
[...]Would you call a native American an Asian? Because that's where they were originally from.
[...]
This is totally of topic but...this doesnt sound right. I mean wouldnt a native american be, you know, native to america?

uknesvuinng
August 13th, 2006, 09:07 PM
This is totally of topic but...this doesnt sound right. I mean wouldnt a native american be, you know, native to america?
No human group is "native" to America. But then, no group is really "native" to anywhere outside of Africa. All of the other groups just get credit for making their way to their respective areas first (as far as we know). However, we don't consider ourselves all African.

ShadowMaat
August 13th, 2006, 09:07 PM
This is totally of topic but...this doesnt sound right. I mean wouldnt a native american be, you know, native to america?
I think it's a reference to people crossing over the land bridge from Asia to North America. :rolleyes: Seems a little overly pedantic to me, but whatever.

I still say they're replicators. *shrug*

kes
August 13th, 2006, 09:14 PM
Hmm Ok, cos I was under the impression (sp) that Colombo, you know when he reach america, say something like: Look Indians?! LOL



I think it's a reference to people crossing over the land bridge from Asia to North America. :rolleyes: Seems a little overly pedantic to me, but whatever.

I still say they're replicators. *shrug*
Land bridge?

ShadowMaat
August 13th, 2006, 09:18 PM
Land bridge?
The Bering Land Bridge (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bering_Land_Bridge) that once connected Alaska and Siberia.

Americans get taught that in school at an early age but it rarely has much impact on daily life. :P

kes
August 13th, 2006, 09:26 PM
The Bering Land Bridge (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bering_Land_Bridge) that once connected Alaska and Siberia.

Americans get taught that in school at an early age but it rarely has much impact on daily life. :P
Mm interesting. I thought the Conts where like this for a long time before humans appeared. Always hated history. Too much stuff. Wars, country borders, migration, slavery, kings,language evolution,exploration, trade roots,etc etc. and that just from my little corner of the world lol

Mandysg1
August 13th, 2006, 09:55 PM
Did you see the preview for TRW? Particularly the bit where Daniel Weir opens a door and sees the event horizon?
Looks to me like the blatant recycling/thievery of SG-1 elements is only going to get WORSE.

Me? I plan to watch Psych instead. Much more fun and much less pretension.

Yes! I had the same thought....didn't we see this already:S
Just like I thought I was watching Natural Selections part deux :mckay:
Well I guess if you can't steal from yourself, who can you steal from :D

ShadowMaat
August 13th, 2006, 09:56 PM
Well I guess if you can't steal from yourself, who can you steal from :D
I always thought cannibalism was frowned upon by most "modern" societies. :P

PG15
August 13th, 2006, 10:15 PM
I think it's a reference to people crossing over the land bridge from Asia to North America. :rolleyes: Seems a little overly pedantic to me, but whatever.



Give me a break, it's the first thing that popped into my head, m'kay? :p

duffarama
August 13th, 2006, 11:02 PM
Honestly one of the best Atlantis episodes to date. Sateda and now this! S3 sounds great. The last scene with Niam floating in space really set the tone for the episode as a whole. The CGI was great, everything was great.

There was a lack of suspense at times, but that may have come from reading the spoilers. I can't wait for "The Return" now!

Grats to Carl Binder for writing such a fantastic episode.
Yep, up there as one of the best. SG1 and SGA have really hit the nail on the head with quality episodes in season 9 and season 3. It just gets better and better.
Weir was stunning this episode. I loved her interactions with the Asurans particularly.
Also the scenes in which Atlantis was attacked in Shep's mind-probe were very enjoyable.

Wraith Warrior
August 14th, 2006, 12:16 AM
Me too. I loved it, one of the best Atlantis episodes to date. However, a couple of things. I don't think it's helpful to keep referring to them as Replicators, with the similarities it's tempting but the from what I understand The Replicators weren't made out of nanites and it wasn't until after studying Reese that they were able to evolve to Human form where as the Asurans evolved straight from nanites to human-from machines and most importantly, they don't replicate! So they're not really replicators. Secondly, please don't make Niam another Fifth, it's already been done and besides, he strangled Weir, so we had no choice. Thirdly, though I loved the episode and the Asurans, especially their leader given I'm a MASH fan ;), don't you think we have enough enemies with the Wraith, the Genii and now the Asurans? It took SG-1 a couple of seasons to rack up that many enemies!! Lastly, I really hope the Asurans don't take the spotlight away from the Wraith, I really wished they had developed the Wraith more as an enemy before introducing the Asurans. But overall, a very good episode.

spiff
August 14th, 2006, 12:48 AM
S3 episodes are GREAT and so are some S10 episodes for Sg1, so wtf is with the ratings slump?

Valos Cor
August 14th, 2006, 02:34 AM
hmmm.... i think i am the only perosn o nthis planet that has realised that the ancients( condescending lights that are "better" then us) the ancients have created EVERY single Enimy in stargate... they created the guald with the dakara "terraformer" creating all life in the milky way.....including the goa'uld , the replicators ...... they created them for a weopon.... and they turned on them... and then an atlantean scientist(presumed) creates them again.... and as for the wraith...ha! has anyone wondered how the wriath evolved sooooo quickly... and got the atlanteans out numbered a thousand to 1? they came from one planet where the ancients were experimenting... it is a bit strange how the wraith are everywhere now ... but the ancients had the power of a galaxy to stop them.... when they were lergly sparce.....

and as for the ori... i think htey are being a bit stoopid... who cares about interfeering?..... its there survival at stake.. if they had let the ori continue in there ways insted of fleeing into the universe....


well wow... the ancients have created every major enimy in stargate......


think about it ....

Pitry
August 14th, 2006, 03:21 AM
So that's how Unnatural Selection was supposed to look.
I wondered.

Finally - I know I've said about Atlantis episodes that they're excellent before, but this is one of the only I can say this without adding for myslef - "for Atlantis". Finally, a great episode.
Nah, I don't mind the Unnatural Selection vibes. Or rehashes. Or..
The Asuran city was marvelous. I loved it. See - that's how they shouldb have done the Atlantis shots in Pegasus Project!
Arrogant Ancioents. Surprise, surprise.
They weren't exactly replicators, no. I agree. Now I hope they explain somehow the similarities between these replicators and the ones in the Milky Way galaxy - unless Reese was built by the Ancients? They also have another very differnet trait - the replicators don't have feelings. They're not aggressive, they're not hateful, they jsut... replicate. These lot have feelings. Oooooh (cue dramatic music).
Loved the bits when.. well, Decent Replicator, can't remember his name - showed Weir their history. All those post-apocalyptic-war pictures. Beautiful. Sheppard's hallucinations.... Rodney's arbitrary numbers and complaining on why he's not going alone to these missions - ha! Unfortunately, Ronon and Teyla returned to being wallflowers, Ronon's only contribution was to remove that Asuran (and ha, the way Rodney automatically turned to him to do it) - and Teyla on repeating Jonas Quinn's half-arsed moral issues from Unnatural Selection about betrayel... Either get a morally-inclined character a-la Jackson\ start being consistant about moral reactions - or drop it altogehter. Please?

But it was great. REally looking forward to Real World.

Linzi
August 14th, 2006, 03:24 AM
I enjoyed Progeny. I think the Asurans will be a good enemy, as long as they're going to be developed, and not be like the human form replicator's from SG1 too much.
The episode was entertaining, the sfx stunning, and I loved the mind probe hallucination of Sheppard's. That was the best part of the episode for me, mainly becuase I didn't realise until the end of the scene that is was all an illusion!The scene where we found out it was all an illusion, where Oberoth pulled his hand out of Sheppard's head was not only unexpected, but really tense. I loved it. Very clever.
Poor Shep seems to have little regard in his own self-worth! I did love that Rodney seemed to be the only one not happy at Sheppard's self-sacrificing - again! Shep obviously realises how much Rodney cares for him....arghhh ;).
The ending was a little, er, reminiscent, of Unnatural Selection, but I can live with that as long as that doesn't happen again. I don't want Niam to become Fifth, that you very much.
I loved the McKay/Sheppard banter, and some lines made me laugh out loud. I did wonder what poor Rodney had endured in his illusion though. Intimate? I shudder to think what happened to him!
My only quibble was that the first 30 odd minutes of the episode was great, the rest a little slower and predictable.
I also don't know why Weir went along. She's actually not a great diplomat in my eyes, and though I know her inclusion was for plot device reasons so she gets her own episode next week, I think the team would have gone alone to Asura, and then, if all was safe, Weir joined them later.
This did not compare to Sateda, in my eyes. But, it was still a solid episode, and season 3 is shaping up well for me, though I have grave reservations about next weeks episode, which I think may be a horrible scifi cliché. Let's hope I'm wrong.

gooner_diva
August 14th, 2006, 04:12 AM
How about a world of living Ancients? You know, the reason why the Stargate program exists?
Like McKay said, just because they can use Ancient technology, it doesn't mean they're Ancients. ;)

FoolishPleasure
August 14th, 2006, 04:41 AM
Her presence off-world screamed Plot Device to me. Seriously, under what circumstance would they send all their senior staff to a planet they'd never visited before?
It didn't work for me either. Who was in charge of Atlantis? And as much as I like Weir, she really didn't display very good negotiation skills here.


as for Teyla, since when is she familiar with phrases like "electromagnetic pulse"? So not only can she sense the Wraith, she can now also "sense" other things like someone lying or that monster in Epiphany. She needs her own unique identity, not be a rip-off certain Babylon 5 and The Next Generation characters... with Xena's fighting abilities.
Season 1 and 2 Teyla was a ripoff of Lyta from Babylon 5, with all her genetic changes and "infiltrate and confuse the enemy with the mind" abilities. Now she is channeling Deanna Troi of ST-TNG. I used to hate all that "I feel they are lying. . .I feel they are hiding something, B.S. in TNG, and I don't want to see it here! Plus, someone take the lip gloss away from her - they were prisoners but sometimes she had naked lips and sometimes she was all made up, and Teyla doesn't seem the type to take a make-up bag with her off world. This poor girl really needs the writers to make her truly unique and her own person - they can start with dumping the inappropriately tight tank tops. :rolleyes:


The episode? A rewrite of Unnatural Selection, complete with First and Fifth. I understand the need to introduce a new enemy on SGA, but why piss on 10 years of established SG-1 canon to rehash an old enemy? One that wasn't terribly popular, mind you. Is this their idea of rewarding long-time loyalty to the Stargate franchise? Those who haven't seen SG-1 - great, they'll enjoy the episode. The rest will experience a deja vu, but we don't give a damn about that as long as there's cool CGI. :rolleyes:
It just shows you what goes wrong when the same writers work on two different shows.

doylefan22
August 14th, 2006, 05:33 AM
Reading a lot of what has been written on here I found myself thinking things along the lines of 'hang on a minute, didn't they...?' and 'but didn't they say that...?'. I actually went and watched the episode again after to see if I was mistaken and I do think there are a fair few points that some people who have been complaining about this episode have missed. And I do feel people have been very unfair to Weir.

Personally I love the morally dubious episodes - I loved the whole deal with Michael because it isn't all black and white. It's about choosing the lesser of two evils in order for personal survival. I didn't really see this episode like that though - it was played as an us or them situation and, quite rightly, the team chose to protect their own. But I'll come back to that in a moment...

They were not Replicators
They employed similar technology but they were not the Replicators we've already seen. Rodney's gut reaction after he comes round is to call them Replicators. Later he retracts that and explains that they are very similar but not the same - although he surmises they may be related to the human form Replicators. Replicators in SG-1 aren't driven by emotion, yet these guys are. They are violent and wish for revenge/retribution. Also, the history of the Asurans states they are in fact partially organic. They are more biological than the essentially mechanical beings we've already met. I considered the implication to be that these were a pre-cursor to the Replicators we've already seen. Maybe Reese's creator was trying to fix some of the mistakes they'd previously made with the technology....I really didn't see this as recycling the old enemy because it is like they are a different 'breed'.

Did they betray them?
A lot of people on here have been implying that the Asuran's were the victims here and were hard done by the Atlantis team but I really didn't get that vibe at all. I didn't feel particularly sorry for them because in the end they were the aggressors. I cetainly don't think the Niam's version of events that happened between them and the Ancients was the whole truth. When the team first meet Oberoth he lies to them and tells them they are Ancients. He also says that they split from the Ancients because of a disagreement over what to do in a time of war - considering the hot zone virus and how the Asurans were programmed to be violent, I don't think they left the Ancients with much choice. They were already struggling with the Wraith and couldn't afford to let another enemy to humanity survive, especially one of their own making. I certainly got the impression that the reason why the Ancients tried to wipe them out was because they couldn't control them and considered them highly dangerous. A harsh decision maybe, but done with the best intentions.

Later on, having yanked the knowledge from the team's mind, they head off to Atlantis to destroy it - they didn't care that people were living there. They wanted to wipe out the city in retribution for something that happened thousands of years ago, regardless of the lives lost. Oberoth would have been quite happy to kill the team there and then since he saw no purpose in them - yup, real nice guys!

The plan later on was an attempt to not have to destroy the Asurans, unfortunately it came across three major problems - one, they got to Atlantis before the automatic update took place and two, they couldn't guarantee how long the freeze would last and three, it was highly unlikely they could have pursuaded Oberoth not to attack them in the mean time. I certainly didn't see their decision to blow it up in the circumstances as betrayal - the Atlantis team were the victims here, they were the ones who's home and people were about to be destroyed by aggressors through no fault of their own. Quite rightly they prioritised the lives of their own over those of an attacker. I'd be rather surprised if they sat back and thought 'well, there's more of these people than there are of us, therefore we should just sit back and let them kill the ones we're responsible for because of the numbers!'

My only issue is that, yes, they took Niam along (which went pear shaped through no fault of their own) but what about the two female Asurans? Why didn't they deserve to be saved? A poor writing oversight.

Weir is a bad diplomat/decision maker?
I like Weir, think she has the toughest job and has to make some of the crappiest decisions, but in the end she always does what's best for her own people. She certainly tries not to harm others and looks for the diplomatic solution but if it's a matter of us or them, she quite rightly chooses us. After all, that is where her responsibilities and loyalties lie.

She is very clever with her words and does ask the right questions. Not once does she betray that they are from Atlantis, still being very careful to hide the existence of the city from anyone just in case. During their initial meeting, she questions them carefully without bringing up the sore points (Ronon and Sheppard do that and she looks a bit uncomfortable with it). When John and Rodney are talking about how arrogant Oberoth is, she hurriedly steers the conversation away, presumably not wanting to insult or offend Niam. She brings up the point of ascension first, wondering why they haven't, and immediately picks up on the fact that Niam doesn't agree with Oberoth on the matter. She is perceptive enough to be suspicious of them and realise something is quite right.

In her brief negotations with Oberoth it certainly seemed that she was stuck in a rut. He obviously thought that they had nothing worth offering and she had to walk the fine line between trying to convince them that they may have something to trade and not revealing where they came from - she gave enough hints to keep them interested but not to endanger themselves. Oberoth gave her nothing to work with - he was not interested in negotiations. She tried to compromise - if he won't give them the means to defeat the Wraith how about helping them defend themselves in the mean time? When they don't go for that she goes for a next option - could they come here and use it as refuge if they are attacked again? He basically says they would see they as an irritation. She tries to convince him that they can work together to stop the Wraith and he completely shuts her down. She immediately picks up on the fact that he is not interested in helping them. From that point on there's little she can do negotiation wise. She uses his own words against him (about the Ancient's arrogance) to give him something to think about. Still she maintains her friendly attitude towards Niam (keeping good relations with some of them is an advantage) and says they will leave it a little while and try to contact them again. She hasn't given up hope of an alliance just because of one set back.

Of course the Asuran's actions change all that.

Her decision at the end to go along with blowing up the city was one of necessity. She did feel compassion for them, as Niam sensed, and was willing to help them but circumstance got in the way. They got to Atlantis before they could initialise their plan. Her choice then was use the advantage Rodney had given them to wipe out the threat and guarantee her people's safety or hope that Niam could persuade Oberoth that he didn't want to be violent and hate the Ancients, and therefore hold off attacking the city until the update took place. Which considering his earlier behaviour was unlikely. Why should she value their lives over the ones she's responsible for? It was a matter of survival and she made the right choice.

What I would like to see from her is more 'damn, I wish I didn't have to do that but I had no choice', but that's the same with a lot of characters - we don't see much personal reaction to the things they do.

Niam is left floating - should they have destroyed him?
Well that's assuming they can find him! If he was ejected back out of the jumper in that way, basic physics would suggest he is in fact floating away from Atlantis (as long as he isn't in orbit, which he didn't look like he was) and will continue to do so until he comes across something to stop him. He is not entirely organic and therefore may not show up on a life signs scan and the sensors are really for detecting ships - they may not be designed for finding such a thing. After all, he's a very small object in a very big universe.

Talking of sensors, the only other thing that made me go 'huh?' in this was why Atlantis had not detected the other city so close - but perhaps they had ways of blocking themselves from the sensors?

Overall I thought this was a very good episode - plenty of shades of grey and some great interaction between the team.

Pitry
August 14th, 2006, 06:43 AM
It just shows you what goes wrong when the same writers work on two different shows.


Not quite. While the story credits are shared between Carl Binder and RCC - who originally wrote Nemesis\Exodus and Unnatural Selection - the writing credits are only given to Carl Binder, who has only written on SG1 episode. It might be that the Unnatural Selection similarities do come from RCC's suggestion.... but we cna't be sure :)


They employed similar technology but they were not the Replicators we've already seen. Rodney's gut reaction after he comes round is to call them Replicators. Later he retracts that and explains that they are very similar but not the same - although he surmises they may be related to the human form Replicators. Replicators in SG-1 aren't driven by emotion, yet these guys are. They are violent and wish for revenge/retribution. Also, the history of the Asurans states they are in fact partially organic. They are more biological than the essentially mechanical beings we've already met. I considered the implication to be that these were a pre-cursor to the Replicators we've already seen. Maybe Reese's creator was trying to fix some of the mistakes they'd previously made with the technology....I really didn't see this as recycling the old enemy because it is like they are a different 'breed'.


Good point - But I suspect hte reason everyone's refering to them as Replicators isn't McKay's words, but rather TPTB. A lot of the writers have mentioned that they're inserting the Replicators into the plot, not a similar breed - also, if I'm not mistaken they did hint of ties between them and Reese. Also...
The Return spoilers
Jack is brought to Atlantis to deal with him because he's the expert on all things Replicators. It's possible that next week's episode will show more about their origin and how they're connected to "our" replicators, but even if not, I'm pretty sure that's what the writers have in mind. You're absolutely right - they should show it, rather than think it - one of hte major problems Atlantis has on all fronts - but I did get the impression they're the same Replicators.

Ah, well. As long as they stay on Atlantis and don't find their way to SG1... I'm actually happy. :)

uknesvuinng
August 14th, 2006, 07:00 AM
Me too. I loved it, one of the best Atlantis episodes to date. However, a couple of things. I don't think it's helpful to keep referring to them as Replicators, with the similarities it's tempting but the from what I understand The Replicators weren't made out of nanites and it wasn't until after studying Reese that they were able to evolve to Human form where as the Asurans evolved straight from nanites to human-from machines and most importantly, they don't replicate! So they're not really replicators. Secondly, please don't make Niam another Fifth, it's already been done and besides, he strangled Weir, so we had no choice. Thirdly, though I loved the episode and the Asurans, especially their leader given I'm a MASH fan ;), don't you think we have enough enemies with the Wraith, the Genii and now the Asurans? It took SG-1 a couple of seasons to rack up that many enemies!! Lastly, I really hope the Asurans don't take the spotlight away from the Wraith, I really wished they had developed the Wraith more as an enemy before introducing the Asurans. But overall, a very good episode.

They had to replicate. There's no way there could have been that many unless the Ancients just kept producing trillions upon trillions of nanites without end and then followed that up with the worst extermination effort ever.

They aren't quite the same as replicators, but they do look a great deal like the humanform replicators at the base level. The only real difference between humanform reps and the Asurans is the base programming, one having the primary objective to replicate, and use aggression when necessary, the other to be aggressive, replicating simply out of need.

FoolishPleasure
August 14th, 2006, 07:23 AM
Not quite. While the story credits are shared between Carl Binder and RCC - who originally wrote Nemesis\Exodus and Unnatural Selection - the writing credits are only given to Carl Binder, who has only written on SG1 episode. It might be that the Unnatural Selection similarities do come from RCC's suggestion.... but we cna't be sure :)
Andy Mikita directed both SG1's "Unnatural Selection" and this SGA episode in question. That could account for many similarities. Like others have said, a different director would have come from a different angle and possibly made it seem "newer/fresher" than just a remake.

Robert Cooper and Brad Wright wrote "Unnatural Selection", and Carl Binder had to have read their script. There are too many similarities for him not to have done so. This was NOT an original story by Binder in any way, shape or form. BTW, Carl Binder usually writes for SGA, not SG1.

I am curious to see what path TPTB take our new "friends". We'll see if they can come up with something other than Replicators taking over a base.

langdonboom
August 14th, 2006, 07:45 AM
They must have decided to cut those scenes when they realized that this theory wold create a major plot hole. Reese created the Milky Way Replicaters. She was not a Replicater herself. Therefore, there can be no direct connection to the Asurans. Unless, maybe, Reese had some sort of access to the Atlantis Database somehow. And she would need access to a deleted portion of the database at that.

Reese WAS made of nano-technology, and I wouldn't be surprised if it was the exact same technology as the Asurans. She did create the Replicators (the spidery things) and they in turn, when given all the time they needed to evolve, rediscovered this super-nano technology on their own on the planet Halla, which resulted in the 'human-form' replicators, who are also now using super-nano-molecules to assume more organic forms -- none of this is incompatible with the Ancients making the Asurans first, then coming to the Milky Way, and perhaps one ancient trying to work on the same technology and failing (Reese's planet was destroyed, perhaps by the Replicators, or perhaps by the Ancients themselves similarly to Asuras).

MB.Eddie
August 14th, 2006, 08:09 AM
Just when you think SG1 has killed the replicators, they pop up again in a different galaxy...

Decent ep. Started awesome, but then went down the same path as un-natural selection.

Will be interesting to see if they show up again in the coming eps.

What ever happened to that anti-replicator weapon that Jack used to free Carter? If it wasnt destroyed it could come in handy...

Also im not sure how these replicators were planning on attacking Atlantis. They couldnt use ancient weapons, as they arnt human, so would surely lack the dna and genes.

McKay and Sheppard were good again.

BubblingOverWithIdeas
August 14th, 2006, 08:41 AM
They must have decided to cut those scenes when they realized that this theory wold create a major plot hole. Reese created the Milky Way Replicaters. She was not a Replicater herself. Therefore, there can be no direct connection to the Asurans. Unless, maybe, Reese had some sort of access to the Atlantis Database somehow. And she would need access to a deleted portion of the database at that.

She wasn't a Replicator, but she did have nanites as part of her system which were the basis of her Replicator creations. So there is a technological similarity which makes sense if her "father" was an Ancient.

IcyNeko
August 14th, 2006, 08:52 AM
Is it just me, or is Sheppard exhibiting ungodly amounts of ADD as the military commander of Atlantis? I mean, occasional banter with McKay is okay, but when they're in the middle of life-and-death situations, the whole "HOW MANY MINIUTES" discussion seems like something most officers who ascend to the rank of Lt. Colonel would know better than to do.

GateLadyM
August 14th, 2006, 10:02 AM
Is it just me, or is Sheppard exhibiting ungodly amounts of ADD as the military commander of Atlantis? I mean, occasional banter with McKay is okay, but when they're in the middle of life-and-death situations, the whole "HOW MANY MINIUTES" discussion seems like something most officers who ascend to the rank of Lt. Colonel would know better than to do.
Sheppard doesn't have nearly the professionalism of the officers over on SG1. You would never see Carter and Mitchell in that argument. Those "time left" discussions irritated the heck out of me and sounded more like two teenagers bickering than a Ph.D and an Air Force officer discussing escape from an enemy. The writers can still show humorous banter between Shep and McKay without having to resort to outright immaturity.

The Signal
August 14th, 2006, 10:36 AM
Okay, this episode gains major points for action and intensity (Shep's illusion was a spectacular scene to say the least), dialogue, backstory, Ancient development (bombing the Asuran city was possibly the most entertaining thing they have done), however, it looses pretty much all of those points for being a re-hash of an old idea. Normally, I don't mind re-hashes, but when it is of an episode of SG1, it just screams laziness. So, unfortunately, as it really was a good episode, I can't give it any more than

6/10

Apophis87
August 14th, 2006, 10:43 AM
Well, I can see a military leader needing to know as much about the situation he's in as possible, but you'd think that he'd know his team well enough that he'd be able to understand what McKay was trying to say without having to waste time argueing about exactly how long they had.

maxbo
August 14th, 2006, 11:15 AM
Strange episode. The more I think about it, the more I find fault with it. Although there were several good to great moments, there were also several moments that had me scratching my head.

The Good

* The Team’s continuing to bond
* The Team’s first sight of the grandeur of the city
* Seeing the city in flight
* The guest characters - Oberoth and Niam
* Sheppard and Rodney’s banter (although at times it was a bit much)
* Teyla and Ronon having more than one line each
* Sheppard’s mind probe nightmare
* Elizabeth going off world, which also leads into the bad

The Bad

* Having the top 3 Atlantis leaders go on a first contact mission together
* Having Elizabeth go off world for da plot and not even trying to write a surrounding storyline that makes sense
* Where the hell was Carson?
* The whole Niam having his programming rewritten and then being reset made my head hurt
* Leaving Niam floating in space when they should have blown him up

Yep, strange episode.

OfF3nSiV3
August 14th, 2006, 01:12 PM
yeah bit strange the 3 leaders going on mission, but that's because they're the main characters
carson wasn't there because there was no need for medical stuff

Gydyon
August 14th, 2006, 02:02 PM
I guess I don't understand why so many are accepting what Niam said at face value.

Who's to say anything he said was true? We have no idea how information is passed down to later forms of the nanites -- even if Niam was sincere (and I wonder given he was willing to kill thousands of his kind to "ascend"), he could have been fed misinformation by the older Asurans.

We don't know that the Ancients tried to wipe them out or that they have an "agressive program" or that they can't change their base code except from what they themselves told us by showing images to Weir, moments after they fed the same group false images designed to get more information.

I know we sometimes like to rush to find the plot holes, but to do so by taking a stranger and an enemy at his word seems to not give anyone the benefit of the doubt. I will wait and see; hopefully some of this is explained.

Further, the Replicators created human form Replicators, not Reese. If we accept the theory that an Ancient made her using Ancient technology (and perhaps that will be discussed), I don't think it's such a stretch in a science fiction show to come to the conclusion that her creations, also based on Ancient tech, would create a form of themselves that works much like the Asurans do.


EDIT: Whoops, a lot of people on page 18 said what I was thinking on 16. And more eloquently.

SJL24
August 14th, 2006, 02:43 PM
[QUOTE=Gydyon]I guess I don't understand why so many are accepting what Niam said at face value.

Who's to say anything he said was true? We have no idea how information is passed down to later forms of the nanites -- even if Niam was sincere (and I wonder given he was willing to kill thousands of his kind to "ascend"), he could have been fed misinformation by the older Asurans.

We don't know that the Ancients tried to wipe them out or that they have an "agressive program" or that they can't change their base code except from what they themselves told us by showing images to Weir, moments after they fed the same group false images designed to get more information.

I know we sometimes like to rush to find the plot holes, but to do so by taking a stranger and an enemy at his word seems to not give anyone the benefit of the doubt. I will wait and see; hopefully some of this is explained.

I agree with your assesment and i have kept quiet cause i don't like arguments, but i to feel that Niam's version of events needs to be addressed in futher detail, besides we only have the asuran side of the story their perspective on events don't you agree that we would need to hear both sides of the story the asurans and ancients before condeming the ancients as being heartless.

Besides maybe they viewed the possibility that the asurans might one day pose a threat, they were already to blame 4 the wraith to have unleashed 2 enemies on a defenceless galaxy would have been 2 much 4 them to take so they decided to take care of the problem before it got out of hand.

This is only a theory on my part, please don't rip my head off if u don't agree.

SJL24
August 14th, 2006, 02:48 PM
Just another thought, if what Niam said was true and the asurans asked the ancients to remove their violent nature, when Niam received the update suppressing his violent side why didn't the other asurans on his homeworld accept the new programme which is what they originally wanted.
Instead they reset Niam, this makes me suspicious of the asurans version of history.

Thoughts anyone?

PG15
August 14th, 2006, 02:54 PM
Like McKay said, just because they can use Ancient technology, it doesn't mean they're Ancients. ;)

Yeah, but they were dressed in white like the Ancients. :p

SJL24
August 14th, 2006, 02:55 PM
S3 episodes are GREAT and so are some S10 episodes for Sg1, so wtf is with the ratings slump?

Couldn't agree with u more my friend i was just as surprised to read about the ratings slump as u obviously were.

PG15
August 14th, 2006, 02:59 PM
Robert Cooper and Brad Wright wrote "Unnatural Selection", and Carl Binder had to have read their script. There are too many similarities for him not to have done so.

How so?

What exactly are the similarities anyway besides Replicators?

The betrayl? Betrayls aren't really original ideas in any medium, so why pointed out here?

The plot is, they discover a new enemy, they try to destroy Atlantis, and our team has to find a way to stop them. Tell me, would it be as "derivative" if they weren't replicators but regular aliens/humans?

I guess I just don't get it.

SJL24
August 14th, 2006, 03:12 PM
I would just like to say that i really enjoyed this episode and i love Stargate Atlantis.

Don't u think that we might be a little 2 picky now and again. Let us be honest we r not under the constraints of budget, time, etc that the ptb r when they r making the show. Our imaginations r not under those constraints theirs are!

By no means am i saying that the points brought up aren,t valid some i agree with to an extent, but at the end of the day i am just glad to have a enjoyable scifi show on my screen.

I love atlantis and i want to continue to see it grow and evolve, so lets show our support as well as constructive critique!

P.S. The asurans kicked butt looking foward to seeing them again!

bluealien
August 14th, 2006, 03:21 PM
How so?


The plot is, they discover a new enemy, they try to destroy Atlantis, and our team has to find a way to stop them. Tell me, would it be as "derivative" if they weren't replicators but regular aliens/humans?


They didn't discover a new enemy - The Asurans welcomed them as friends but due to Weir telling them they were from Atlantis - they became an enemy. They had been around for thousands of years and didn't seem to bother anyone but it only took a visit from Atlantis to change all of that.

ShadowMaat
August 14th, 2006, 03:36 PM
If Atlantis is supposed to be a secret, why does Team Atlantis keep telling everyone about it? Even if it's an accidental slippage of information these people should be intelligent enough to not make mistakes like that. My nine year old niece keeps better secrets than Team Atlantis and she doesn't even have to worry about the possibility of hundreds of people dying if she slips up.

Need to excuse the need for ZPMs? Say they've found a cache of Ancient tech. Or some hybrid ship. There are lots of ways a ZPM can be used and just because strangers LOOK friendly and SEEM like they could be Ancients is no reason to be so trusting.

Whatever happened to STRANGER DANGER?! :P

silverdamascus
August 14th, 2006, 03:41 PM
May have been brought up before but there's a lot here to read through:

Why on earth does McKay think the Replicators created the Hot Zone virus?

It was designed to kill humans and leave the Ancients alive, which is how he himself survived. Did I mishear that or was that a little oversight on someone elses part?

doylefan22
August 14th, 2006, 03:54 PM
If Atlantis is supposed to be a secret, why does Team Atlantis keep telling everyone about it? Even if it's an accidental slippage of information these people should be intelligent enough to not make mistakes like that.

They didn't tell anyone that they were from Atlantis - just that they were at a base that they found which runs off of Ancient technology. We've come across non-Ancient cities before which use ZPMs so they certainly weren't automatically giving it away by revealing that info. Elizabeth was in fact very careful in her talk with Oberoth not to reveal where they were from. They got the information directly out of their minds with the probe.


May have been brought up before but there's a lot here to read through:

Why on earth does McKay think the Replicators created the Hot Zone virus?

It was designed to kill humans and leave the Ancients alive, which is how he himself survived. Did I mishear that or was that a little oversight on someone elses part?

Elizabeth said that the Asurans have a hatred for humans, seeing them as the favoured children of the Ancients. They also would stop at nothing to stop the Wraith, even wiping out their food supply. Considering that they are made of nanities themselves, Rodney surmised that it is likely they were the ones who created the virus whilst doing their job i.e. finding a way to stop the Wraith.

smushybird
August 14th, 2006, 04:30 PM
Couldn't agree with u more my friend i was just as surprised to read about the ratings slump as u obviously were.


Do they factor in that a lot of people are on vacation in July and August and probably don't watch as much tv?

FoolishPleasure
August 14th, 2006, 04:40 PM
How so?

What exactly are the similarities anyway besides Replicators?

The betrayl? Betrayls aren't really original ideas in any medium, so why pointed out here?

The plot is, they discover a new enemy, they try to destroy Atlantis, and our team has to find a way to stop them. Tell me, would it be as "derivative" if they weren't replicators but regular aliens/humans?

I guess I just don't get it.
Go watch SG1's "Unnatural Selection", then you'll understand what people are complaining about.

xfkirsten
August 14th, 2006, 05:00 PM
Yeah, but they were dressed in white like the Ancients. :p

*puts on white Ancient-y clothes, grabs a couple of high tech toys, and waits for Team Atlantis to come runnung* :p

KerMcG90
August 14th, 2006, 05:03 PM
You'll be waiting a while there missy, the time it takes to get to earth then the time it'll take to get to san diego ;)

Lt.Colonel John Sheppard
August 14th, 2006, 05:07 PM
okay so I got a Feeling The Return is going to be better than Progeny and The Real World.

GhostPoet
August 14th, 2006, 06:57 PM
WOOoooooooooo!! The reps are back and bigger and badder than ever!!

Man...I LOVE these new seasons of Atlantis and SG-1...
This episode was so awesome...my ONLY complaint is that Teyla didn't have much to say...but other than that...I was blown away :) The shows just get better and BETTER.

ShadowMaat
August 14th, 2006, 06:58 PM
I have a feeling just about anything will be better than Real World. :P Although hopefully it won't be of the same bad caliber as The Tower and Irresistible...

deltsigpun
August 14th, 2006, 07:09 PM
Has anyone else wondered why Rodney didnt just take all 3 zpm from the asurans ship leaving them powerless floating in space and then go to atlantis and have sheppard use drones to blow up the asuran ship. i mean i know giving atlantis 3 more zpms all at once might not be interesting as far as more stories go, but seriously, Rodney is to smart not to do the obvious thing.

uknesvuinng
August 14th, 2006, 07:12 PM
Has anyone else wondered why Rodney didnt just take all 3 zpm from the asurans ship leaving them powerless floating in space and then go to atlantis and have sheppard use drones to blow up the asuran ship. i mean i know giving atlantis 3 more zpms all at once might not be interesting as far as more stories go, but seriously, Rodney is to smart not to do the obvious thing.
With no ZPMs, the city would have no shield. Humans are rather fond of breathing.

coolove
August 14th, 2006, 07:18 PM
yeah bit strange the 3 leaders going on mission, but that's because they're the main characters
carson wasn't there because there was no need for medical stuff

Carson is a main character as well. There would have been no need for him or Weir to be off-world as maxbo stated.

PG15
August 14th, 2006, 07:31 PM
They didn't discover a new enemy - The Asurans welcomed them as friends but due to Weir telling them they were from Atlantis - they became an enemy. They had been around for thousands of years and didn't seem to bother anyone but it only took a visit from Atlantis to change all of that.

Weir never told them they were from Atlantis. Weir just said that they needed ZPMs, and Oberoth guessed that they were from a Lantian outpost/city/whatever.

And then they stuck their hands in her head and figured out that they were from Atlantis.

Mind you, this is all from memory, so I may be wrong.


Go watch SG1's "Unnatural Selection", then you'll understand what people are complaining about.

Oh I've watched that, many times. I can see the resemblance (replicators, betrayl), but not on the scale some of you are screaming about.

ShadowMaat
August 14th, 2006, 07:32 PM
Carson is a main character as well. There would have been no need for him or Weir to be off-world as maxbo stated.
Carson who? :rolleyes:

Oh yeah, you mean that jittery doctor guy who only pops up when it's convenient to the plot? As opposed to Teyla and Ronon who generally serve no purpose at all but are always hanging around anyway. Dang, maybe if Carson had been born on another planet he could've gotten more screentime. :P

Although Scotland practically IS another planet... ;)

uknesvuinng
August 14th, 2006, 07:42 PM
Weir never told them they were from Atlantis. Weir just said that they needed ZPMs, and Oberoth guessed that they were from a Lantian outpost/city/whatever.

It's not hard to guess when Weir says, "We found an Ancient outpost and found the address for this world in its computer." I'm fairly sure not a lot of things fit that description.

uknesvuinng
August 14th, 2006, 07:44 PM
Carson who? :rolleyes:

Oh yeah, you mean that jittery doctor guy who only pops up when it's convenient to the plot? As opposed to Teyla and Ronon who generally serve no purpose at all but are always hanging around anyway. Dang, maybe if Carson had been born on another planet he could've gotten more screentime. :P

Although Scotland practically IS another planet... ;)

Is it just me, or did Beckett get more screentime in S1, before he was a "regular."

PG15
August 14th, 2006, 07:55 PM
It's not hard to guess when Weir says, "We found an Ancient outpost and found the address for this world in its computer." I'm fairly sure not a lot of things fit that description.

What do you mean?

You tell that to me and I would have no idea that she's from Atlantis. All I know would be...well, they found an outpost with my world's address in it.

Gregorius
August 14th, 2006, 07:58 PM
Is it just me, or did Beckett get more screentime in S1, before he was a "regular."

He has caught the Ford/Jonas syndrome, as regular you barely get character development but as recurring you do get a decent storyline and character that is forgotten after a few episodes.

uknesvuinng
August 14th, 2006, 07:59 PM
What do you mean?

You tell that to me and I would have no idea that she's from Atlantis. All I know would be...well, they found an outpost with my world's address in it.
Yeah, but you aren't privy to the massive amounts of info the Asurans had. Considering Atlantis was the base city, it was likely the only one (or one of few) to have had references to Asura, specifically the location of it. It certainly told Oberoth the existence of Atlantis was likely. One little mind probe and that was confirmed.

Even so, they probably would have been happy to eliminate any Ancient outpost. It was just convenient for them that it was Atlantis.

kes
August 14th, 2006, 08:00 PM
[b]
[...]

Oh I've watched that, many times. I can see the resemblance (replicators, betrayl), but not on the scale some of you are screaming about.
First, Fifth..

Major Gambit
August 14th, 2006, 08:07 PM
Ok, something confuses me, did the Asurans make reese? Because we know that she made the replicators.

PG15
August 14th, 2006, 08:08 PM
As I understand it:

Fifth: Has adolescent mind that is very unstable and wishes to fit in. He also had a crush on Sam.

Niam: Intellegent, stable, all around nice, normal guy that wish to ascend to a higher plane of existance. He wished to better his people.

Pretty different to me.


Yeah, but you aren't privy to the massive amounts of info the Asurans had. Considering Atlantis was the base city, it was likely the only one (or one of few) to have had references to Asura, specifically the location of it. It certainly told Oberoth the existence of Atlantis was likely. One little mind probe and that was confirmed.

Weir wouldn't have known that by the time she talked to Oberoth. I mean, she had no idea what the Asuran's true nature or intentions were.

She also had no points of reference for a great civilization such as theirs, except for the Ancients, who obviously wouldn't have done what the Asurans eventually did.

candyman
August 14th, 2006, 08:16 PM
Ok, something confuses me, did the Asurans make reese? Because we know that she made the replicators.

This is a great question. I too was wondering how to resolve this. Reese, if I remember correctly was the android that was created by some advanced civilization. Reese made the replicators as toys for herself, but she couldn't control them---and that is how the whole mess started.

Any ideas on how to resolve this?

Here is one thought:

The advanced civilization must have be Lantian. They created Reese and Reese had access to the entire Atlantis database. Reese looked around and created the replicators as toys for herself.

I would appreciate a better explanation.

uknesvuinng
August 14th, 2006, 08:23 PM
Weir wouldn't have known that by the time she talked to Oberoth. I mean, she had no idea what the Asuran's true nature or intentions were.

She also had no points of reference for a great civilization such as theirs, except for the Ancients, who obviously wouldn't have done what the Asurans eventually did.

Exactly. Two extremely important reasons that she shouldn't have even told as much as she did. She was utterly clueless, yet she gave information that could be used to figure out their secrets, knowing that it would just as likely be used against them as for them. It was a huge mistake as far as diplomacy goes, and she's supposed to be a top diplomat. She needs a vacation.

PG15
August 14th, 2006, 08:33 PM
Exactly. Two extremely important reasons that she shouldn't have even told as much as she did. She was utterly clueless, yet she gave information that could be used to figure out their secrets, knowing that it would just as likely be used against them as for them. It was a huge mistake as far as diplomacy goes, and she's supposed to be a top diplomat. She needs a vacation.

I guess we'll just have to agree to disagree. I see nothing wrong with what she revealed considering that all negotiations have many unknowns, and there is only so much you can not reveal before it becomes just "hello".

Mitchell82
August 15th, 2006, 01:09 AM
As I understand it:

Fifth: Has adolescent mind that is very unstable and wishes to fit in. He also had a crush on Sam.

Niam: Intellegent, stable, all around nice, normal guy that wish to ascend to a higher plane of existance. He wished to better his people.

Pretty different to me.



Weir wouldn't have known that by the time she talked to Oberoth. I mean, she had no idea what the Asuran's true nature or intentions were.

She also had no points of reference for a great civilization such as theirs, except for the Ancients, who obviously wouldn't have done what the Asurans eventually did.
Exactly! I loved this ep and thought it was very different from Unatural Selection.

doylefan22
August 15th, 2006, 01:37 AM
Exactly. Two extremely important reasons that she shouldn't have even told as much as she did. She was utterly clueless, yet she gave information that could be used to figure out their secrets, knowing that it would just as likely be used against them as for them. It was a huge mistake as far as diplomacy goes, and she's supposed to be a top diplomat. She needs a vacation.

Hang on, if she doesn't actually tell them a little of what she wants (i.e ZPMs) then she cannot begin to negotiate with them and they'll never get anywhere! You can't negotiate if you can put nothing on the table to start with - that was part of the problem in that she couldn't reveal to him why they may be capable of helping him.

Atlantis is certainly not the only place we have seen use ZPMs as a power source and no way did what she reveal mean they were in the city. They had told her they were Ancients and everything around them pointed to that, she certainly had no reason to believe they could stick their hands in her head and find out the truth!

bluealien
August 15th, 2006, 10:25 AM
Weir never told them they were from Atlantis. Weir just said that they needed ZPMs, and Oberoth guessed that they were from a Lantian outpost/city/whatever.




He asked her if they were of Lantean design and she immediatly says yes. She said that they found an uninhabited settlement and he asked if that was of Lantean Design and again she says yes and goes on to tell him where it was located.


By giving its location, that is was of Lantean design and that it was uninhabited was really more than enough info for Oberoth to know that it was Atlantis.

Erised
August 15th, 2006, 11:22 AM
Her presence off-world screamed Plot Device to me. Seriously, under what circumstance would they send all their senior staff to a planet they'd never visited before? I also find it hard to believe that an experienced negotiator like her would say things like "May I suggest [arrogance] runs in the family?" when speaking to a leader of an advanced civilisation. This isn't the first time Binder's tried to make her look/sound like a badass, either. I still cringe when I remember the scene in Condemned where she's threatening the Magistrate with guns. Woeful characterisation.
Good observation! :D Damn you've watched Progeny way more carefully than me. Yeah I can also see how Weir going off world was too obvious that something bad and big was going to happen. That line about "arrogance" made me cringe too. It's one thing when she's talking like that to military on Earth.. It's another thing when all of Atlantis expedition is at stake and she talks to a leader of the enemy like that.



Sheppard and McKay were arguing even more than usual at an even more inappropriate time, as for Teyla, since when is she familiar with phrases like "electromagnetic pulse"? So not only can she sense the Wraith, she can now also "sense" other things like someone lying or that monster in Epiphany. She needs her own unique identity, not be a rip-off certain Babylon 5 and The Next Generation characters... with Xena's fighting abilities.

LOL, never seen Babylon 5 but yeah. TPTB should have just left the beinbg able to sense the wraith part. I understand how she could sense them at least... The Gift was a great episode that showed it. But now she can sense everything. What the heck? Honestly... she must have little bit of everything from the Pegasus galaxy in her ;)



The episode? A rewrite of Unnatural Selection, complete with First and Fifth. I understand the need to introduce a new enemy on SGA, but why piss on 10 years of established SG-1 canon to rehash an old enemy? One that wasn't terribly popular, mind you. Is this their idea of rewarding long-time loyalty to the Stargate franchise? Those who haven't seen SG-1 - great, they'll enjoy the episode. The rest will experience a deja vu, but we don't give a damn about that as long as there's cool CGI. :rolleyes:

I haven't seen Unnatural Selection for awhile now and maybe I should, because for some reason I liked Progeny. Well alright I will watch SG-1 replicator episodes and hate Progeny with all of you together.. haha ;)



55 days to S3 of BSG.

Can't wait!!! *starts marking the days off on her calendar


Plus, someone take the lip gloss away from her - they were prisoners but sometimes she had naked lips and sometimes she was all made up, and Teyla doesn't seem the type to take a make-up bag with her off world. This poor girl really needs the writers to make her truly unique and her own person - they can start with dumping the inappropriately tight tank tops. :rolleyes:

LOL! I didn't even notice the lip gloss. Yeah, I mean she grew up in a village and did not use any make up. And now suddenly she acts like a very girly girl from Earth?? I don't think so ;)

FoolishPleasure
August 15th, 2006, 11:54 AM
LOL, never seen Babylon 5 but yeah. TPTB should have just left the beinbg able to sense the wraith part. I understand how she could sense them at least... The Gift was a great episode that showed it. But now she can sense everything. What the heck? Honestly... she must have little bit of everything from the Pegasus galaxy in her ;)
That's the big SIKRIT this year - besides having Wraith DNA, Teyla also has nanite particles in her blood. I bet her father was a refugee Genii as well. Plus she could sense the creature in "Epiphany" because she is close to ascention herself. Silly, isn't it?? ;) :)


I haven't seen Unnatural Selection for awhile now and maybe I should, because for some reason I liked Progeny. Well alright I will watch SG-1 replicator episodes and hate Progeny with all of you together.. haha ;)
I didn't really hate the episode. The production values were top notch, the actors all did a good job, and I wasn't even upset that the writers had dusted off an old script. "Intruder" was a reworking of SG1's "Entity" but it was different enough to be thoroughly enjoyable.

What really upset me was that it was more than taking an old script - in the last half hour of "Progeny" it was almost exactly the same set up as "Unnatural Selection", - the SG1 replicators wanted to take human shape to be like their creator, Reese, while the SGA Asurans took human form to be like their creators, the Lantians. Comparison go clear down to our friend (Niam/Fifth) showing the lead female (Carter/Weir) what was/could be (invading their minds), "freezing" the enemy, having serious discussions about how many minutes for an escape window, one enemy wanting to be an ally, and then being left behind. The only difference was that SG1 lied to Fifth and left him to his fate with those he betrayed, while SGA shot Niam out of the puddlejumper (to face his fate with his buds back home after betraying all those on the ship). Both characters came back (or will come back) for their revenge.


LOL! I didn't even notice the lip gloss. Yeah, I mean she grew up in a village and did not use any make up. And now suddenly she acts like a very girly girl from Earth?? I don't think so ;)
Sometimes Teyla has so much makeup (with those silly tank tops, complete with pushup bras), I expect her to say, "Oh that Wraith Queen's outfit is sooooo. . .um. . .like. . last CULLING.. . DUH!" :D

GhostPoet
August 15th, 2006, 11:56 AM
I couldn't be more excited after finding out the Replicators were the new enemy. Dude, I got goosebumps!! :) This is such an exciting twist and TOTALLY unexpected...I didn't see it coming at all. Man...the Replicators are back and bigger and badder than ever!!! =) I LOVE Stargate!!!

vaberella
August 15th, 2006, 12:51 PM
If Atlantis is supposed to be a secret, why does Team Atlantis keep telling everyone about it? Even if it's an accidental slippage of information these people should be intelligent enough to not make mistakes like that. My nine year old niece keeps better secrets than Team Atlantis and she doesn't even have to worry about the possibility of hundreds of people dying if she slips up.

Need to excuse the need for ZPMs? Say they've found a cache of Ancient tech. Or some hybrid ship. There are lots of ways a ZPM can be used and just because strangers LOOK friendly and SEEM like they could be Ancients is no reason to be so trusting.

Whatever happened to STRANGER DANGER?! :P

Hey, hey...it's not team Atlantis. It's people in the team. John has taken great pains in not givig up information. We saw this in Irresistable and Condemned, in Epiphany and also he made it a point to talk around Atlantis in Inferno. It's the incompetants around him that talk about Atlantis----minus Teyla, and I believe, McKay. But others give it up like a $.50 ----.

That's why I hold John in such esteem, no matter what he does try to protect Atlatis from the enemy overall. Unfortunately not for long.

And your last point is true enough...hence the bloody reason Weir should never have gone on this mission. She was like he's good...let's go. Come on now..think through, for everyone else who seems not matter to her---the lowly citizen's; military team and an athosian is good enough. If their worth her time they'll relay back and she'll make an appearance. But in this because they APPEARED to be Ancient and 'civilized' by her estimation, making a deal with them can't wait. Come on man. What the hell is that about?!:mckay:


It's not hard to guess when Weir says, "We found an Ancient outpost and found the address for this world in its computer." I'm fairly sure not a lot of things fit that description.

http://i42.photobucket.com/albums/e308/vaberella/teylaanime20.gifhttp://i42.photobucket.com/albums/e308/vaberella/teylaanime20.gifhttp://i42.photobucket.com/albums/e308/vaberella/teylaanime20.gifhttp://i42.photobucket.com/albums/e308/vaberella/teylaanime20.gifhttp://i42.photobucket.com/albums/e308/vaberella/teylaanime20.gif

And the Asurans new they were from Earth since, they pretty much said so, I would assume the Asurans would also know of Earth or some idea of Earth because of the ancients, and the gate on Atlantis is the ONLY way to earth if not by ship---as they knew the Ancients escaped those that did not ascend.


:sheppardanime23:http://i42.photobucket.com/albums/e308/vaberella/teylaanime32.gif:mckayanime03:
Teyla in a McShep Sandwich!!

GateLadyM
August 15th, 2006, 01:03 PM
And your last point is true enough...hence the bloody reason Weir should never have gone on this mission. She was like he's good...let's go. Come on now..think through, for everyone else who seems not matter to her---the lowly citizen's; military team and an athosian is good enough. If their worth her time they'll relay back and she'll make an appearance. But in this because they APPEARED to be Ancient and 'civilized' by her estimation, making a deal with them can't wait. Come on man. What the hell is that about?!:mckay:
One of the big complaints that fans have had about this show revolved around Weir doing nothing and going nowhere. I think this was an effort to show she does go offworld and is important, but it just didn't go over right.

xfkirsten
August 15th, 2006, 01:15 PM
LOL! I didn't even notice the lip gloss. Yeah, I mean she grew up in a village and did not use any make up. And now suddenly she acts like a very girly girl from Earth?? I don't think so ;)

Maybe she and Weir had a big makeover party or something, and now Teyla's hooked on the stuff. :p

ShadowMaat
August 15th, 2006, 01:16 PM
One of the big complaints that fans have had about this show revolved around Weir doing nothing and going nowhere. I think this was an effort to show she does go offworld and is important, but it just didn't go over right.
If you're going to have you're character going somewhere and doing something then it had bloody well better be consistent with who and what the character is. Mouthing off to the leaders of advanced nations is NOT something that any experienced negotiator would do, at least not within the first few hours/day of meeting.

I'd rather have Weir doing nothing and going nowhere than having her behave like an untrained rookie.

white noise
August 15th, 2006, 01:28 PM
i liked it! i thought it was great...i finally got to see a city ship fly, then got to watch it explode, how bad can that be? i'll leave the nit-picking to others to cry about!

ShadowMaat
August 15th, 2006, 01:32 PM
And if all you care about are cool special effects, that's fine. I myself thought they were pretty cool. ...But I also like a competent story to go with my CGI and that's where Progeny failed for me. *shrug*

FoolishPleasure
August 15th, 2006, 02:01 PM
Maybe she and Weir had a big makeover party or something, and now Teyla's hooked on the stuff. :p
Sounds like an idea for an upcoming episode:

"Avon in Atlantis"

Ugh. . I feel ill. :)

xfkirsten
August 15th, 2006, 02:15 PM
Sounds like an idea for an upcoming episode:

"Avon in Atlantis"

Ugh. . I feel ill. :)

The Pegasus Galaxy has to get its makeup products from somewhere! :p

ShadowMaat
August 15th, 2006, 02:16 PM
Is it just me, or did Beckett get more screentime in S1, before he was a "regular."
It sure seems like it to me. Certainly his screentime seemed more meaningful then. I had a lot more respect for him, too.

I'd like to see Carson stand up to Weir & co and flat-out refuse to participate in some of their more... questionable schemes.

vaberella
August 15th, 2006, 02:35 PM
One of the big complaints that fans have had about this show revolved around Weir doing nothing and going nowhere. I think this was an effort to show she does go offworld and is important, but it just didn't go over right.
Really? I hadn't heard the complaints by many people in that regard. I know I never complained about wanting her to go off world, and I definitely complained how much I wanted from the character of Weir. She's leader of Atlantis, but I always felt it was slightly risky to send leader on missions with other teams, kind of reminds me of her useless in Epiphany; or something going wrong in the episode of Condemned. It's not only the waste but also the danger factor of losing your leader like that in a situation when it shouldn't happen. I didn't even like the Genii situation---I saw the reasoning, I was just uneasy about it.

I feel she should have stayed on base, unless of course it was proven that the villagers or citizens of any planet were willing to negotiate and then bring her in to meet leader to leader, but then again Teyla had more of a relationship with a few of the leaders...so Teyla's place in that negotion was better. But Weir would be good in weaponry and of course technology and any other form of extended protection if possible from earth with people in the PG. Like if Sateda was still standing, after the which ever team made first contact and it seemed they could be allies, then you call in Weir and have her finish up the negotiations and create some sort of treaty----that would hav been perfect. But I never complained of wanting her going on missions, it's too risky having not only the Atlantis leader, but the head military and the head scientist all together. That's just professionally off base and could destroy the whole Expedition.

And whenever she goes on missions and meeting let's say a male leader who is welcming but hesitant she uses undo force, I keep thinking of Inferno...her statements were totally uncalled for, and then we see she blows up the ship she was ready to force out of the guys hands. What a waste....


If you're going to have you're character going somewhere and doing something then it had bloody well better be consistent with who and what the character is. Mouthing off to the leaders of advanced nations is NOT something that any experienced negotiator would do, at least not within the first few hours/day of meeting.

I'd rather have Weir doing nothing and going nowhere than having her behave like an untrained rookie.

As SM has said, this is one of the bigger problems. There's no need to make her an idiot and they do make her appear slightly childish...like a pre-madonna...

doylefan22
August 15th, 2006, 02:46 PM
I keep thinking of Inferno...her statements were totally uncalled for, and then we see she blows up the ship she was ready to force out of the guys hands. What a waste....

What statements? She was desperately trying to convince the people to leave before their planet exploded around them - they were very pressed for time - and all her willingness to help was met with was distrust. She was honest and didn't have time to gently persuade them.

As for what happened to the Orion - well she could have just left Earth to deal with the problem, having been told they had little defence against the Wraith. I hardly see the willingness to help save people on her home planet as a failure.

vaberella
August 15th, 2006, 02:53 PM
What statements? She was desperately trying to convince the people to leave before their planet exploded around them - they were very pressed for time - and all her willingness to help was met with was distrust. She was honest and didn't have time to gently persuade them.

As for what happened to the Orion - well she could have just left Earth to deal with the problem, having been told they had little defence against the Wraith. I hardly see the willingness to help save people on her home planet as a failure.
Maybe I should have made my statement clearer, I was speaking of her negotiation with the leader of those people in Inferno...nothing else and nothing more. Even the leader wasn't appreciative of her approach. She used undo force with a vieled threat, which was totally uncalled for. That's all I was commenting on!

And the Orion...I don't know what your saying, I understand why she risked destroying the Orion, so that's not my concern. I don't like the loss of the Orion, but whatever.

doylefan22
August 15th, 2006, 03:04 PM
Maybe I should have made my statement clearer, I was speaking of her negotiation with the leader of those people in Inferno...nothing else and nothing more. Even the leader wasn't appreciative of her approach. She used undo force with a vieled threat, which was totally uncalled for. That's all I was commenting on!

I didn't read her words as threat at all. She was firm but fair, explaining to him what was in both their interests. She takes a distinctly non-military approach to negotiatons - I can only imagine what it would be like if Caldwell was in charge! I get the impression he would care a lot more about the military strength of the Atlantis base and far less about what happened to the other human inhabitants of the PG. Not really his fault but he has been trained to think that way. Weir is much different - although she has had to adapt since coming to the PG.

vaberella
August 15th, 2006, 04:06 PM
I didn't read her words as threat at all. She was firm but fair, explaining to him what was in both their interests. She takes a distinctly non-military approach to negotiatons - I can only imagine what it would be like if Caldwell was in charge! I get the impression he would care a lot more about the military strength of the Atlantis base and far less about what happened to the other human inhabitants of the PG. Not really his fault but he has been trained to think that way. Weir is much different - although she has had to adapt since coming to the PG.

CHANCELLOR'S OFFICE. Elizabeth and Laikos are sitting on either side of his desk.

WEIR: We are seeking to establish relations with civilisations throughout the galaxy.

LAIKOS: As are we. In fact, people from several worlds have chosen to emigrate here, seeking refuge from the Wraith.

WEIR: Our interest extends beyond just security, though. We're also interested in cultural exchange and, of course, trading opportunities. As you discovered, we have an extensive knowledge of Ancient technology.

LAIKOS (looking at her suspiciously): And *we* have an Ancient warship.

WEIR: Yes. A ship that currently is unable to fly. If we were able to repair it, perhaps we could negotiate ...

LAIKOS (interrupting): We do not know all of its wonders, but I can only assume it possesses the capability for great destruction. Why would I hand over that capability to you?

WEIR: Now, Chancellor, don't take this as a threat in any way, but we already possess that capability. Now, having that ability and using it are two entirely different things.

The above is quote of the scene, which is tame compared to the effect of the scene on screen, so I'd recommend rewatching; but what I wanted to mention is here. Just by the mere mention that her statement will be seen as a threat is enough for the Chancellor to believe that it's a threat. Look, you don't want to even imply or during your negotiations have anything you say give an implication as a threat----so saying that it is not to be taken as such---makes the threat apparent.

Keep in mind this is before we knew that the place would blow up, we're throwing our weight around. So for her to even request the ship so early on in their meeting is off the wall for me, maybe I'm used to plesantries and a knowledge of each other and laying down what can be offered, before making a direct request of wanting something they have---something of which we know in the PG is of more of sentimental and reverant value---while we view it as an effective weapon.

Don't get me wrong, I know we're at war and will do what we can. But using the wraith as a tactic wasn't used in the request. There's a delicacy when broaching such a topic that wasn't even done. So yeah, I did have a problem with the approach. She may not be military, but it was reminiscint of when John was making negotiations in The Eye/Storm with that other leader. That's how you don't make friends. She's lucky their world was blowing up, or she might have lost another friend after those negotiations.

uknesvuinng
August 15th, 2006, 04:34 PM
Hang on, if she doesn't actually tell them a little of what she wants (i.e ZPMs) then she cannot begin to negotiate with them and they'll never get anywhere! You can't negotiate if you can put nothing on the table to start with - that was part of the problem in that she couldn't reveal to him why they may be capable of helping him.

You don't begin negotiations by saying "We need this." You start with developing a relationship with them and find out what they're like and what they can use in return. Weir just gave up all kinds of information, knowing nothing about how it would be used. It was a grave mistake.

ShadowMaat
August 15th, 2006, 04:55 PM
You don't start off by saying "GIMME THIS!" and you don't have a snit when the answer is "No." That SHOULD be in Diplomacy 101

doylefan22
August 15th, 2006, 05:11 PM
The above is quote of the scene, which is tame compared to the effect of the scene on screen, so I'd recommend rewatching; but what I wanted to mention is here. Just by the mere mention that her statement will be seen as a threat is enough for the Chancellor to believe that it's a threat. Look, you don't want to even imply or during your negotiations have anything you say give an implication as a threat----so saying that it is not to be taken as such---makes the threat apparent.

She quite clearly stated that she did not intend to threaten them and would not use thopse capabilities against them if you actually read what she said.


You don't start off by saying "GIMME THIS!" and you don't have a snit when the answer is "No." That SHOULD be in Diplomacy 101

She didn't ask them to hand them over, she put her cards on the tale and said 'this is what we need, what can we offer you.' She certainly didn't get in a 'snit' when they turned her down, back came up with other options. When it was clear that he wasn't going to bother trying to help them at all, she turned his own words back against him to try to get him to see how unfair he was being. She then said they'd leave it a while and come back and try to start again...

Chailyn
August 15th, 2006, 05:30 PM
You don't start off by saying "GIMME THIS!" and you don't have a snit when the answer is "No." That SHOULD be in Diplomacy 101

IMHO, diplomacy is one great "gimme this" otherwise there's nothing worth negotiating for. Sure, sometimes there are nicities, but the more powerful side will always intiminate the weaker side, which is why I found Weir's negotiation with Laikos to be realistic. She knew she had more power, and didn't feel the need to beat around the bush. Just like national politics, we don't help third world countries out of the goodness of our overflowing hearts, do we?

However, I too thought she missed the mark with the Asurans. After seeing their technology and the grandness of their city, I think a little more weaseling for a handout was in order. But, Weir isn't a shrinking violet. She was trying to play their distaste for their creators against them. It didn't work, and was a risky move. She lost her hand. However, knowing what we now know about the Asurans, I think the odds were against us ever buying them a cold one. ;)

CalmStorm
August 15th, 2006, 05:38 PM
One of the characteristics I deplore in diplomats (and sales people) is the fact that it takes them soooo long to get to the point. They try to beat around the bush so much that it takes forever to get anything done. Once something is accomplished, it is usually with much confusion and much misunderstanding.

Occasionally, my job requires me to be able to sell our service and bring in new customers and expand with the ones we have. I have found that getting straight to the point brings in more and better customers than trying some "sales pitch" does. If I tell them exactly what it is that we have to offer, what it is we are good at, but more importantly, what it is we cannot do, it is much easier to communicate and there are no misunderstandings. I am not trying to sell them something we do not have or over-state the services we offer. This way, neither one of us is wasting our time. Time is a very valuable asset, and most do not want to waste any.

I think this is a good characteristic in Weir. She gets straight to the point. No beating around the bush, no over-statement of what they have to offer. The Ausuran leader made it clear that he would not be willing to listen to a lengthy speech from her. Through Weir's method, she learned very early on the type of person the Ausuran leader was. Anyone could see his disdain and attitude that their "visitors" were pest. I saw Weir making clear their need and what they had to offer. I did not see her arrogance remark as smarting-off, I saw it as a very good statement for the Ausuran leader to contimplate upon her departure. If anything were to change his mind, I would think it would be pointing out that he suffered the same affliction that he criticized his "brothers" of suffering from as it was extremely obvious. How could he counter such an absolute truth? I thought it was brilliant on her part to make that her parting words.

I think it was clear that the Ausuran leader was set in his position and no amount of brilliant negotiating would change that. I don't see Caldwell doing any better in that situation. I don't see Sheppard doing any better in that situation. I don't see Hammond doing any better in that situation.

The team won't win every situation. Not every situation will play out absolutely perfectly. I like that the team is flawed. I like that Sheppard gets very aggravated with McKay. I like that Ronon is very aggressive. I like that Beckett is a bit of a scaredy cat that can bring forth bravery when needed. As much as I find it annoying, I am glad that McKay is whiney. I like that Weir handles the leadership of the expedition, mistakes and triumphs. These characters are not perfect, far from it, but I am happy with the characters we have and how they succeed and how they fail. It's easy to sit back and say..."how stupid"...I've done that myself...but at the same time stupidty abounds in real life everywhere. Some of the most brilliant people screw up royally, but that does not make them any less brilliant on a whole, it only makes them human. Kudos to the writers for keeping it sometimes all too real.

doylefan22
August 15th, 2006, 05:40 PM
IMHO, diplomacy is one great "gimme this" otherwise there's nothing worth negotiating for. Sure, sometimes there are nicities, but the more powerful side will always intiminate the weaker side, which is why I found Weir's negotiation with Laikos to be realistic. She knew she had more power, and didn't feel the need to beat around the bush. Just like national politics, we don't help third world countries out of the goodness of our overflowing hearts, do we?

However, I too thought she missed the mark with the Asurans. After seeing their technology and the grandness of their city, I think a little more weaseling for a handout was in order. But, Weir isn't a shrinking violet. She was trying to play their distaste for their creators against them. It didn't work, and was a risky move. She lost her hand. However, knowing what we now know about the Asurans, I think the odds were against us ever buying them a cold one. ;)

Excellent post. That's pretty much my view on the situation and why I think Weir gets an unnecessarily hard time on here. That's how diplomacy is in real life - basically poilte arguing and trying to figure out who has the stronger position. I liked that she used word games against Oberoth. He showed no signs of backing down and so she tried something she wouldn't normally. At the time she didn't see they had anything to lose since they weren't going to give her anything anyway. It was a clever move - just a pity she didn't have all the facts at the time!

ShadowMaat
August 15th, 2006, 05:46 PM
How about basic bartering? Do you walk in and say, "I want this. I NEED this. I MUST HAVE IT!!! WE WANTS THE PRECIOUSSS...." Or do you say, "Hey, this thingy looks kinda neat, what does it do?" ;) And then, "Oh really? Wow, 'cos ya know, we found a few things in these old ruins and it looks like this thingy- what did you call it?- might be what powers it. We think it might be a toaster. So, what's this other thing over here?"

Getting straight to the point might work in some situations, but I also think it pays to be cautious and to not show how much you want/need something- especially when you're dealing with an unknown and powerful group of people. Or pseudo-people. :P

doylefan22
August 15th, 2006, 05:50 PM
How about basic bartering? Do you walk in and say, "I want this. I NEED this. I MUST HAVE IT!!! WE WANTS THE PRECIOUSSS...." Or do you say, "Hey, this thingy looks kinda neat, what does it do?" ;) And then, "Oh really? Wow, 'cos ya know, we found a few things in these old ruins and it looks like this thingy- what did you call it?- might be what powers it. We think it might be a toaster. So, what's this other thing over here?"

Getting straight to the point might work in some situations, but I also think it pays to be cautious and to not show how much you want/need something- especially when you're dealing with an unknown and powerful group of people. Or pseudo-people. :P

No you say, 'we would like this, what would you like in return?' - which is pretty much what she did do!

CalmStorm
August 15th, 2006, 06:14 PM
How about basic bartering? Do you walk in and say, "I want this. I NEED this. I MUST HAVE IT!!! WE WANTS THE PRECIOUSSS...." Or do you say, "Hey, this thingy looks kinda neat, what does it do?" ;) And then, "Oh really? Wow, 'cos ya know, we found a few things in these old ruins and it looks like this thingy- what did you call it?- might be what powers it. We think it might be a toaster. So, what's this other thing over here?"

Getting straight to the point might work in some situations, but I also think it pays to be cautious and to not show how much you want/need something- especially when you're dealing with an unknown and powerful group of people. Or pseudo-people. :P

It always depends on the situation of course ;)

I did not see Weir as coming right in and saying "we need this" now trade with us. I saw a less direct approach to begin with and then a more direct approach when leader guy made it clear they were unwelcomed.

They met what they thought were ancients, and not just any ancients, ancients who were completely unwilling to come to the aide of those in need, those who have suffered many thousands of years at the hands of the wraith while they lived in prosperity and safety. Here is a group, of what the team has every reason to believe are ancients, with the ability to aide in the fight and refuse. Niam made it clear that they had more than enough zpms to power the city and that they made them. Perhaps I sympathize with Weir in this situation because given what she knows, these "ancients" are smug and arrogant and completely dismissive of her, her team, and the plight of the enitre Pegasus Galaxy population. Asking for a zpm from them, to me, would be like asking someone for a generator to provide power during a hurricane when such a request would not harm them or put them out in anyway.

At the time, she did not know that they were not truely ancients. Everything about them was very convincingly ancient. How could any one of them know they were replicators? I think Weir's degree of frustration and straight forwardness was understandable in this situation. The less direct approach did not work and time was out. So, give the direct approach a shot because at the time it was clear from leader guy there would be no second shot.

vaberella
August 15th, 2006, 07:01 PM
She quite clearly stated that she did not intend to threaten them and would not use thopse capabilities against them if you actually read what she said.

Actually I read it very well, I wonder if you read my post. The threat was stated and clearly there though. She has the capabilities---no need to mention it if it's not a threat. That's my problem. It changes the tone and the feel of the conversation. Your trying to minimize any kind of adverse approach to a possible ally. With that kind of statement...do you really think that the leader would be comfortable?! Really now. I sincerely doubt that.


One of the characteristics I deplore in diplomats (and sales people) is the fact that it takes them soooo long to get to the point. They try to beat around the bush so much that it takes forever to get anything done. Once something is accomplished, it is usually with much confusion and much misunderstanding.

<snip>
The team won't win every situation. Not every situation will play out absolutely perfectly. I like that the team is flawed. I like that Sheppard gets very aggravated with McKay. I like that Ronon is very aggressive. I like that Beckett is a bit of a scaredy cat that can bring forth bravery when needed. As much as I find it annoying, I am glad that McKay is whiney. I like that Weir handles the leadership of the expedition, mistakes and triumphs. These characters are not perfect, far from it, but I am happy with the characters we have and how they succeed and how they fail. It's easy to sit back and say..."how stupid"...I've done that myself...but at the same time stupidty abounds in real life everywhere. Some of the most brilliant people screw up royally, but that does not make them any less brilliant on a whole, it only makes them human. Kudos to the writers for keeping it sometimes all too real.

I found the statement in bold hilarious. It's very clear why one takes so long to get to the point. Your dealing with cultures, peoples, and languages that are inherently different from yours. Do you have any idea how these things work? One word is said with the wrong inflection and you've just insulted not only the man or woman but the bloody nation. This is wy things take so long. You expect to go up to the prson and say...'Yo, hook me up, bra!' And for the person to know what the hell you mean or what your talking about. My own professor was doing a contract with a chinese business man, and they signed the contract the day before, then he's out enjoying himself...he gets a call saying isn't he coming in to work. Then he's like no we just signed the contract. Then the guy is like....that's the first step...you still have to negotiate and attend several other meetings before anything gets done. This is why things take so long...this is why you take tentative steps, and this is why you watch what you say and the way you say it.

These are things all diplomats should know. You don't stand there and threaten one country, then you become the bully and you are then the threat. And rather than make one friend, you've just made SEVERAL enemies.

For the other poster to say diplomacy is all a big 'gimme this' is marginalizing the point and really breaking down the purposes of countries and why wars start. It's about also standing by your word and coming through on your claims. Not only that showing that you're not a threat or even give that impression, but you could be a back up and in return they would do the same. You all have a common threat, then you work together..not apart.

When those things don't work out..then you will have problems and you'll have drama. Sure you can still end up with problems even when taking precautions and being gracious an doing what a diplomat is supposed to do, but not often....especially if you come to terms.
-------------------------------------------------------
As for the team, our problem again is not flaws. It's stupid mistakes that don't need to be made. Our problem is stupid comments, or decisions or actions that are totally uncalled for and actually make the character look bad. While there are people on this board who harp on a style of dress, the way the person looks, and of course how many relationships a character may have.

The real issue of importance is the actions that actually affect the Atlantis ex which can and have been fatal. There are situations that were easily avoidable and unnecessary which occured which makes the team appear deplorably incompentant....and further more makes the leader look worst, since some of those actions were based on her FINAL decisions.

Acting like a kid also doesn't get things done, when one doesn't get your way and relaying so much information just makes it even worse because it results you in putting your people in immediate danger. Hence the reason I give John props on this, he makes it a point in several scenes to never release too much information and tells them as much as they need to know and states it as vaguely as possible. Some of what Weir let out wasn't vague and can give anyone a clue! Bad leadership there and bad decision making, personally I felt she should have had John there as well, since he's head military he could give that background in what to offer.

ShadowMaat
August 15th, 2006, 07:08 PM
What does it matter if they were Ancients or not? They're still strangers and they're still showing an obvious reluctance to share. Weir should have backed off and tried another approach instead of getting pissy about it, insulting Oberoth and attempting to stalk off in a snit.

How would she feel if complete strangers waltzed into Atlantis and said, "We want this. We'll give you this stuff that's inferior to your own stuff for it, but we still think you should give it to us, especially since we have so much in common, so there"? Would she say, "Why yes, of course" and hand over whatever it was? Or would she say, "Umm... No, we don't even know who you are yet"?

Granted, Oberoth was a bit more forceful in his denial of access to ZPMs, but that's all the more reason to play it cool, not hot-headed.

CalmStorm
August 15th, 2006, 07:10 PM
What does it matter if they were Ancients or not? They're still strangers and they're still showing an obvious reluctance to share. Weir should have backed off and tried another approach instead of getting pissy about it, insulting Oberoth and attempting to stalk off in a snit.

I understand where you are coming from, I just did not see it that way. Oh well :)

Chailyn
August 15th, 2006, 07:54 PM
These are things all diplomats should know. You don't stand there and threaten one country, then you become the bully and you are then the threat. And rather than make one friend, you've just made SEVERAL enemies.

For the other poster to say diplomacy is all a big 'gimme this' is marginalizing the point and really breaking down the purposes of countries and why wars start. It's about also standing by your word and coming through on your claims. Not only that showing that you're not a threat or even give that impression, but you could be a back up and in return they would do the same. You all have a common threat, then you work together..not apart.


We'll just have to disagree. I've learned that politics is not about making friends, it's unfortunately about managing enemies. And, as far as diplomacy is concerned, I can think of very few instances were allies "gave a helping hand" and "stood by their word" unless there was some self interest involved. That's why a country goes to war with country x, but uses diplomacy for country z. It all comes down to power, IMHO. But, this is all getting OT.

Regarding Weir, as I said previously, I thought she could have handled it better, but the Asurans don't exactly have a high opinion of the human race to begin with. Most likely, we'd have to align ourselves with the minority who want to ascend like their creators. We'd basically be getting ourselves into a civil war. Maybe Weir should have made more of an effort on this front, but I don't think even perfect negotiating could break down thousands of years of distrust in a simple meeting. They have a good reason not to trust us (and to hate us). The Atlantis team simply had to cut their losses. They didn't make an ally this time. There's too much bad blood to ignore.

Also, I think Weir's working on short terms goals, instead of long term right now, which may or may not be the right thing to do. She needs a ZPM to keep Atlantis protected. That's her priority. I think we will make allies, but it'd be nice if they didn't try to eat our ancestors, or our ancestors didn't try to annihilate them. You know, pesky details like those. :)

PG15
August 15th, 2006, 08:00 PM
He asked her if they were of Lantean design and she immediatly says yes. She said that they found an uninhabited settlement and he asked if that was of Lantean Design and again she says yes and goes on to tell him where it was located.

As far as I know, and from watching the Weir vs. Oberoth convo one more time, all she said about location was that it was on the outer edge of the galaxy and was near some Wraith Hives.

That's like me saying that I live in the Western Hemisphere. Now try to find me.



By giving its location, that is was of Lantean design and that it was uninhabited was really more than enough info for Oberoth to know that it was Atlantis.

Location: outer edge of Pegasus
Lantean design: we've seen at least 2 (Atlantis + The Tower), and there could be plenty more, like the outpost where they found the Asuran's location in the first place (which was also uninhabited if I remember correctly).

There is also the fact that before some point in the episode, the Asurans thought Atlantis to be destroyed. I forgot when that happened, so it may or may not strengthen my arguement that by revealing the info that Weir did, a normal person wouldn't know that she was from Atlantis.

Then again, the Asurans aren't quite normal.

CalmStorm
August 15th, 2006, 08:07 PM
Regarding Weir, as I said previously, I thought she could have handled it better, but the Asurans don't exactly have a high opinion of the human race to begin with. Most likely, we'd have to align ourselves with the minority who want to ascend like their creators. We'd basically be getting ourselves into a civil war. Maybe Weir should have made more of an effort on this front, but I don't think even perfect negotiating could break down thousands of years of distrust in a simple meeting. They have a good reason not to trust us (and to hate us). The Atlantis team simply had to cut their losses. They didn't make an ally this time. There's too much bad blood to ignore.

I think Weir's goal was to continue to align with Niam. As he was escorting her and the team to the gate, I think she said something about contacting Niam through the gate. Niam is the one who seemed most interested in Weir and company, and Weir picked up on that. However, those plans were interrupted as they were taken prisioner. I'm not entirely certain, but Niam seemed to be suprised that they were taken prisioner as well.

kes
August 15th, 2006, 08:12 PM
As I understand it:

Fifth: Has adolescent mind that is very unstable and wishes to fit in. He also had a crush on Sam.

Niam: Intellegent, stable, all around nice, normal guy that wish to ascend to a higher plane of existance. He wished to better his people.

Pretty different to me.

Fifth, to me, didnt seem adolescent. He was human, sort of, he was kind. So what he liked Sam. Niam liked Elizabeth lol
With Fifth the difference between him and the othes was just more noticable (sp) cos the others werent trying to be humans. But in Niams case it wasnt such a big difference cos everybody pretty much was the same.

vaberella
August 15th, 2006, 11:41 PM
As far as I know, and from watching the Weir vs. Oberoth convo one more time, all she said about location was that it was on the outer edge of the galaxy and was near some Wraith Hives.

That's like me saying that I live in the Western Hemisphere. Now try to find me.

Is it just me or do we forget that when someone dials the address it shows up on the recieving ends. And these are a comps, the coding or addy is automatically given to them. They didn't need Weir to give the address, but when you say you come from somewhere that needs ZPM's...cause your asking for aid, when you got nothing to offer. Then to be asked if it's Atlantian of design and to answer yes, you've just got yourself a problem. Oberoth is a fantastic leader, I've worked for many political spheres and when your with someone you don't trust, nor your sure you want to trust; you say as little as possible and get as much as possible in information.

He was able to gather all he needed, just by the conversation she requested on a one on one basis...and it lead to this. If anything, when people make it clear they don't anything to do with you and find you of a lesser being, you make your excuses without divulging anything and most of all DON'T ask for anything!!

JanusAncient
August 16th, 2006, 02:35 AM
Weir obviously divulged far too much information to Oberoth. But, the fact that she was bemoaning not being able to have their technology, when she had nothing of equal value to give, did make her character look bad. Sort of got the feeling that she was going to stomp her feet, or hold her breath until Oberoth gave in.

She shouldn't have mentioned anything about Z.P.M's., the most information she should have given, was about the outpost where she found the information, nothing more, not until she was certain that the Asuran's could be trusted. Weir acted as if Atlantis was in imminent peril, and there was absolutely no room for negotiation. But, the thing that really irked, was when Sheppard, via Ronon, noted that the Asuran's were thriving, as if they owed them anything, when it was the Atlantis expedition that awakened the Wraith. She kept trying to cut corners with Niam, like she was going to convince him to overthrow Oberoth, so that they could get the things they wanted more easily.

And, that one-to-one conversation that she had with Oberoth, that was just an incredibly stupid idea. He gave no appearance, that he was anywhere near budging, and the fact that she thought she could convince him otherwise, seemed incredibly naive. They're not about to give a single Puddle Jumper to any other society, but it was like they actually thought, that they were just going to load up Asuran technology, and call it a day.

Linzi
August 16th, 2006, 02:56 AM
I think what the situation shows is that the writers obvoiusly don't know how long-winded and devious diplomats and negotiators are. Weir has never come across as a great diplomat in my eyes, but I blame the writers for that. I maintain weir only went off world because the plot demanded it for the next episode and it really shows. I honestly prefer Weir on Atlantis, and then being brought it to supposedly broker deals when it has been confirmed it is safe for her to do so. I also agree with those that have said Sheppard/McKay and Weir going off world on a first contact mission all together is ridiculous.

doylefan22
August 16th, 2006, 03:07 AM
But, the fact that she was bemoaning not being able to have their technology, when she had nothing of equal value to give, did make her character look bad.

Er...don't the people of Atlantis do just that A LOT? How many less advanced cultures have we seen them interacting with and helping since they arrived? They have often used what they have to help the people of PG and don't always get much in return - especially things of equal value to what they're handing out. They do it one, because they want to help and two, because it helps them keep good relations with those around them.

Having been told point blank by the Asurans that they were Ancients, why should she not expect them to help? Why shouldn't she at least ask? Atlantis is surviving on luck more than anything at the moment - they need those ZPMs to ensure the safety of everyone on there and those things aren't exactly easy to come by. Now you've got a culture who can make them...

She asked them if they would be willing to part with a ZPM so they could defend themselves (considering that Niam had already said they had plenty of them!) and that she's quite willing to try to find something to trade. In the end she basically stated 'look, we're in trouble here and we'd really like your help since it won't actually inconvience you all that much.' She's not going to insult them by simply asking and they really need those ZPMs. She was honest with him and laid her cards out on the table. When he refused she tried to find lesser alternatives until it was quite clear that they were not interested in helping them and would quite happily sit back and watch millions of people slaughtered. Her failing was assuming that they would want to help but that was based upon what they had been told and seen.

You've got to remember as well, the length and format of the show doesn't lend itself to big, drawn out negotiations. If you consider what we're seeing as a watered down version of hours of talking then I have absolutely no problem with it. The show would be rather dull if they showed full negotiations!

ShadowMaat
August 16th, 2006, 04:54 AM
Weir's actions in this ep are being called into question- some support what she did, some think she was a tyrant, others fall in between those extremes. Since this is an episode discussion thread and not a pro-Weir thread, folks are discussing all the angles- even the ones pro-Weir fans might find objectionable. One would hope that people are mature enough not to come and piss all over an "objectional" discussion simply because they don't like seeing a fictional character being criticised, but that's probably a bit much to hope for in this day and age. :rolleyes:

Is it worth pointing out that other ep discussions have lambasted Sheppard? Just check out The Tower discussion. Sometimes McKay is the one taking the heat, sometimes it's Teyla and I think I've even seen the occasional complaint about Carson. This time it's Weir's turn.

I love Torri, but I think that Weir is terribly- and inconsistently- written and this episode illustrates part of the problem for me. She's supposed to be a diplomat but I saw very little that was diplomatic in her dealings with the Asurans.

I also think that her reasons for going on the mission were a bit wobbly. It was an excuse on the part of the writers to get her offworld and captured, but she gives no thought at all to the fact that three of the most important people in Atlantis are going to be on the same mission to go and see a bunch of strangers. Even if she thinks they're Ancients, there should be some basic precautionary measures, such as not placing all of your eggs in one basket.

I'd still like to know who was in charge while the team was gone and how they reacted to the appearance of a giant cityship in their area. Assuming they even noticed it at all. :rolleyes:

Weir in particular and the expedition in general are far too trusting- they believe everyone from the start and are always surprised when the masks are dropped. This happens over and over but no matter how many times it happens, Team Atlantis doesn't learn. They go right back out and make the same mistakes.

Skydiver
August 16th, 2006, 05:25 AM
Ladies and Gents, this is a DISCUSSION thread, which means that ALL opinions are welcome. Pro and Con, friendly or fun.

This means that you're likely to read an opinion you may not like. That's the part of being in a discussion. Try not to take it personally and participate. If you feel that you can't take it dispassionately, then maybe you should either not participate in discussion threads.

Part of 'freedom of speech' means that you may not hear things you agree with. That's just the way it is.

Raziel
August 16th, 2006, 07:28 AM
good opinions, bad opinions in some aspects, but, in the end, still an awesome ep!.... IMHO....

1.- Beautiful CGI effects... flying the city... wow.... a very big city.... or... a replica, sort of....
but.... whay they had to destroy it?.... they didn'y had enough with destroying the Orion?!?!?! I kow the reasons, but still..... :S

2.- diplomatic skills: I prefer Teyla in that department... she appear more sensitive, more perceptive than Weir.... don't flame me, I love the two characters, but sometimes Weir is very impulsive....

3.- :ronan: "Where we are from, we care for family"
:mckay:":eek:"
Wow.... what a change in Ronon!... so cute!!....

4.- All the exchange about random numbers between Rodney and John.... hahahaha.... hilarious!.... :sheppard28:


5.- I missed Carson this ep....

6.- I loved Niam!.. so cute, so kind!..... but... he has an agresive nature.... wooooow... so creepy in the end.... floating around Atlantis Planet.... unfortunaly, he'll be back as an enemy.... a formidable enemy.... :(

7.- So, they have a new enemy now.... very, very powerful.... more powerful than the wraith?.... they seemed like a child game in comparison with these replicants!.....

siXbrownSnakes2
August 16th, 2006, 08:42 AM
I think it would have been interesting if Niam hadn't been reset and was on Atlantis for what is about to happen to Weir this week.

Maybe he will play some significance, I dunno.

Daniel's_twin
August 16th, 2006, 09:17 AM
Oh, he'll probably play some kind of part. Floating over the city, and not deactivated or destroyed? Maybe Asuran "eyes" can zoom in, so he can spy on them, sending his fellow Asurans information as to what he can see in Atlantis.

It's a possibility. :cool:

vaberella
August 16th, 2006, 09:23 AM
I think what the situation shows is that the writers obvoiusly don't know how long-winded and devious diplomats and negotiators are. Weir has never come across as a great diplomat in my eyes, but I blame the writers for that. I maintain weir only went off world because the plot demanded it for the next episode and it really shows. I honestly prefer Weir on Atlantis, and then being brought it to supposedly broker deals when it has been confirmed it is safe for her to do so. I also agree with those that have said Sheppard/McKay and Weir going off world on a first contact mission all together is ridiculous.

If people assume me to be a Weir hater because of my complaint on bad writing for her....nothing---nothing compares to seeing her go off world with the main team. I can't wrap my head around that. It makes no sense. There are people who want her go offworld and experience missions---sure after first contact, not with the other crew.

Even if the plot demanded that she go off world, the execution could have been cleaner and given a more natural affect. This just came out of left field and threw me for a loop. But then I don't like the odds, of all leaders out in a similarly bad situation---together.

To answer SM....I'm now going to say that the job of leadership is divided up between wannabe Lorne and Zelenka----if Caldwell was still around from the episode before, then he's in charge. But I don't know. Zelenka in charge...*insert deity* help them!! Or it could be Carson in charge of Atlantis...that actually might be interesting.

When Elizabeth, John, McKay, and Caldwell are not around...Teyla's in charge. And since Teyla's on this mission it goes to who ever.


:sheppardanime23::teylaanime08::mckayanime01:
Teyla in a McShep Sandwich!! :D

uknesvuinng
August 16th, 2006, 09:25 AM
Oh, he'll probably play some kind of part. Floating over the city, and not deactivated or destroyed? Maybe Asuran "eyes" can zoom in, so he can spy on them, sending his fellow Asurans information as to what he can see in Atlantis.

It's a possibility. :cool:
So he'll be a spy satellite? I hope he can stand monotonous work.

I wonder if the Asurans have a fleet of ships and/or other city-ships. Surely technological beings are familiar with the importance of having backups.

doylefan22
August 16th, 2006, 09:44 AM
Oh, he'll probably play some kind of part. Floating over the city, and not deactivated or destroyed? Maybe Asuran "eyes" can zoom in, so he can spy on them, sending his fellow Asurans information as to what he can see in Atlantis.

It's a possibility. :cool:

Will he be floating over them? If they weren't actually in Atlantis' immediate orbit when he was thrown out the back (and I really couldn't tell either way) then surely he'll be constantly floating away from the place until he some other force acts on him? If so, I wonder where he'll end up...

Chailyn
August 16th, 2006, 09:57 AM
I also think that her reasons for going on the mission were a bit wobbly. It was an excuse on the part of the writers to get her offworld and captured, but she gives no thought at all to the fact that three of the most important people in Atlantis are going to be on the same mission to go and see a bunch of strangers. Even if she thinks they're Ancients, there should be some basic precautionary measures, such as not placing all of your eggs in one basket.

I can agree with that. Sheppard and Co. probably should have met the Asurans first just to give the all clear. Sheppard probably would have picked up that the Asurans were hostile, or at least unwilling to befriend us. But, even though I get that it was a plot element, I do like seeing Weir off world and fulfilling her role as a negotiator. She isn't like Hammond, whose main duty was to be a leader. We see very little of her linguist and political background. Still, that initial mistake aside, I think she did a good job with what she had.

About the episode as a whole, I really enjoyed this one. Regarding the SG1 "Unnatural Selection" episode, I got into SGA before SG1, so fortunately for me this wasn't an issue. I've seen Unnatural Selection, and while, yes, maybe the ending was similiar, overall I liked Progeny more.

I never really liked the Replicators in SG1, but I thought tying them to the Ancients was clever. Somehow, they have a higher meaning/purpose now. I can't wait till we find out more history on them. Also, I find it interesting that they've completely isolated themselves from humanity and the Wraith problem. I wonder what races they did choose to stay in contact with, if any.

It was also smart, and somewhat sadistic, that the Ancients made sure the Asurans would never have true independence over their own bodies. For McKay to have played with their systems like that probably ticked them off to no end, because it only reasserted human dominance over them. Also, I hope that they don't ascend. Somehow, trying to mirror your creators/destroyers that much comes off as pathetic to me. They're a powerful race in their own right. I'd like to see them create their own history, and eventually go their own direction.

stubadingdong
August 16th, 2006, 09:58 AM
Will he be floating over them? If they weren't actually in Atlantis' immediate orbit when he was thrown out the back (and I really couldn't tell either way) then surely he'll be constantly floating away from the place until he some other force acts on him? If so, I wonder where he'll end up...

Agreed. He shouldn't be floating stationary at all. The inertia from being blown out the hatch would have him barreling through space at that same speed. Unless he hit a space rock conveniently orbiting Atlantis (whatever the planet is called). It made for a good dramatic end to the episode, but physics would indicate it's unlikely unless we're shown otherwise.

ShadowMaat
August 16th, 2006, 10:33 AM
I can agree with that. Sheppard and Co. probably should have met the Asurans first just to give the all clear. Sheppard probably would have picked up that the Asurans were hostile, or at least unwilling to befriend us.
Exactly. Why bother going if the people aren't going to be interested in cutting a deal? Or what if they turn out not to be who they say they are? Sure, AFTER they arrive it's all, "Oh, maybe they aren't really Ancients" and all that, but those are the kinds of things that should have been considered BEFORE stepping through the gate.

Anjirika
August 16th, 2006, 11:46 AM
Right, so I thought that this episode was bloody brilliant! I thought that while, yes the plot was similar to unnatural selection, I thought that this added to the whole story. The parallels between the two were great because, not only to we have an answer to what those nanites from season 1 of SGA are, we have a new baddy and a solid theory to where the replicators came from. Clearly an Atlantean created Reece who inturn created the replicators. I thought the whole fake out with Atlantis blowing up was great- the entire time I was like- this can't be real- but what else could it be- ^_^ and I loved how John showed his heroic nature (Like in Straeda) staying behind and allowing as many as possible to escape through the gate! I love the Asurians and I cannot wait till the next episode.

Oh, and I agree with what Weir and the gang did. Niam (and his girls) was the only one who seemed ready and willing to listen to them, and there was no way that Oberath was going to listen to them and I mean, they were already at Atlantis' doorstep! There was a very slim chance that the over ride program would work- and in the end (as we saw) it didn't.

At first I thought it was great, because they didn't betray Niam the same way that Carter betrayed fifth- and when you think about it- they didn't. He was trying to kill Weir and they had no choice but to evacuate him from the jumper. He may be frozen, but some how I think that he will be an ally and not an enemy (at least, I hope he is)

9/10 for this ep.

Metarock Sam
August 16th, 2006, 11:48 AM
Just watched this ep and WOW !!!!
for a start yay replicators return !!! and they had their own version of Atlantis (shame Mckay couldnt take a ZPM or two cos that would have been useful).
which we saw fly and subsequently get blown up :(.
Why do all the good ships in atlantis get blown up ????? This is getting really annoying !!!
it was really great seeing the replicators return although in my opinion this should have been a double episode since there was so more we could have seen such as what was hapenning in the minds of Teyla , Ronon, McKay and Weir when they were being 'probed'.
all in all I give 9/10 I loved it but it should have been longer.

vaberella
August 16th, 2006, 12:19 PM
It was also smart, and somewhat sadistic, that the Ancients made sure the Asurans would never have true independence over their own bodies. They're a powerful race in their own right.
What? Where are you getting this from? What they didn't have independence over was the level of aggression?! They were programmed to kill. They...meaning the Asurans managed to repress that attribute programmed into their being. So how is it that the Ancients were smart?! And it was sadistic. They wanted to be good, but the Ancients wouldn't want them to be otherwise..or their weapon had definitely become no longer a machine but a living thing to be respected. Why would any one want that? Then your agenda may never come about.


For McKay to have played with their systems like that probably ticked them off to no end, because it only reasserted human dominance over them.
Again Weir is very into the ancients and from what I've seen of the last 2 seasons all the ancients do is great and wonderful. There is nothing to say that the Asurans are in some way jealous of humans as she put it in the episode. Because they are driven by a violent nature, they could have killed and eliminated ALL the humans of the PG if they wanted---since the wraith took so long. Why didn' they if they were so jealous of the human race? Even the ancients ran from the Wraith and the Asurans knew of this, that was enough of pleasure to show howo dominant they as Asurans are over the ancients. That the wraith can't touch them.

I doubt totally what your saying about McKay....we already know that a few of them requested and those 3 also stated that many others----probably a few thousand wish to ascend, probably Oberoth himself would like to ascend. And Niam wanted McKay to help where the Ancients WOULD NOT!! The Asurans would never have asked the ancients to change the programming if they didn't want it changed. So McKay would probably have been reverred for succesfully doing that for them.

The problem occurred when the Atlantis team had to attack the asurans with fighting...and then blowing them up...their computers, Niam probably worked like a webcam of sorts adn there's no telling what was sent back, since again they work like computers. The Asurans on the home base then rightfully changed the program to original setting, cause if you remember the programming that McKay did caused the glitch. They don't want the glitch occuring again and they needed to fix that, to fix it even Mckay says they'd have to reset the computers. So the aggression was put back in, and so Niam reacted as he did and should have when he saw his city-ship obliterated.


Also, I hope that they don't ascend. Somehow, trying to mirror your creators/destroyers that much comes off as pathetic to me.
As for mirroring your creators/destroyers....well then you have to say the same about the human race and those that try to ascend. The point is they have the need to ascend because they can be granted that by their 'gods' = ancients. That's a blessing and I see no reason not to do that. Human race on earth has been doing it for ages, how many times has God or whoever the power that exists for a religion has destroyed it's creation---and yet still the creation begs to be welcomed and works to achieve the same celestial home shared by it's creator but also it's killer. Millions upon millions, so these people on earth and real life are there for pathetic in your eyes?! I think that's a bit harsh!


I'd like to see them create their own history, and eventually go their own direction.
First you say it's smart the Ancients don't let be truly free, and then you say that you want them to go their own direction. They try to go their own way and paved their own history, check out the city they live in. But they're driven by a force that was built within them and they're not given autonomy over because of the Ancients. This is why they can't move on, this is why they can't really reach their ultimate autonomous self, they're bound by these details in their make up.

Comparing your first statement to this last one, shows a contradiction.


:sheppardanime23::teylaanime08::mckayanime03:
Teyla in a McShep Sandwich! :D

Chailyn
August 16th, 2006, 01:19 PM
What? Where are you getting this from? What they didn't have independence over was the level of aggression?! [...] So how is it that the Ancients were smart?! [...]They wanted to be good, but the Ancients wouldn't want them to be otherwise..or their weapon had definitely become no longer a machine but a living thing to be respected. Why would any one want that? Then your agenda may never come about.

This is exactly what I am saying. You said "but the Ancients wouldn't want them to be otherwise..or their weapon had definitely become no longer a machine but a living thing to be respected". That is why I'm saying the Ancients were smart. By denying the Asurans the ability to become "no longer a machine but a living thing to be respected" they were trying to make sure that their weapon stayed a weapon. It's easy to destroy something when you don't see it as a living thing to be respected. That's all I'm saying. Morally, it's a difference issue no doubt.


I doubt totally what your saying about McKay....we already know that a few of them requested and those 3 also stated that many others----probably a few thousand wish to ascend, probably Oberoth himself would like to ascend. And Niam wanted McKay to help where the Ancients WOULD NOT!! So McKay would probably have been reverred for succesfully doing that for them

Look, I conceed that I shouldn't have said that the Asurans were probably ticked that Mckay froze them. I don't know. I just know that I wouldn't be too happy if someone froze me. I made an assumption. You're also making assumptions when you state that "probably a few thousand wish to ascend, probably Oberoth himself would like to ascend" and that "McKay would probably have been reverred for succesfully doing that for them". We don't know exactly how much of the population agrees with ascension. We only know that the team met 3 people in a small room with no other representatives around.



As for mirroring your creators/destroyers....well then you have to say the same about the human race and those that try to ascend.

I guess I'd be a Daniel then. I'd either get kicked out or choose to leave. ;)



Millions upon millions, so these people on earth and real life are there for pathetic in your eyes?! I think that's a bit harsh!

I have not once made assumptions or judgments about your personal beliefs. Please show me the same respect. Thank you.


First you say it's smart the Ancients don't let be truly free, and then you say that you want them to go their own direction. Comparing your first statement to this last one, shows a contradiction.

I don't think it does. Intellectually, treating your handgun like a handgun is not a bad thing. Once you start looking at it as a living, thinking being, however, you have a moral decision to make. Morally, I don't agree with how the Ancients treated the Asurans. Intellectually, I can understand why they did.

Can we just be friends now? :)

uknesvuinng
August 16th, 2006, 01:24 PM
I don't think it does. Intellectually, treating your handgun like a handgun is not a bad thing. Once you start looking at it as a living, thinking being, however, you have a moral decision to make. Morally, I don't agree with how the Ancients treated the Asurans. Intellectually, I can understand why they did.

A gun has neither self-awareness, nor a will. The Ancients created a sapient intelligence and forced it to become effectively a slave-warrior race in service to the Ancients. The Ancients certainly have an "interesting" morality.

Chailyn
August 16th, 2006, 01:31 PM
A gun has neither self-awareness, nor a will. The Ancients created a sapient intelligence and forced it to become effectively a slave-warrior race in service to the Ancients. The Ancients certainly have an "interesting" morality.

I agree. Unfortunately, the Ancients chose to use the Asurans like a gun. When that gun (the Asurans) decided to form their own society, the Ancients tried to destroy them. Definately gives us an interesting look into the Ancients' past, something I hope we get more of as the season progresses. :)

PG15
August 16th, 2006, 01:33 PM
Is it just me or do we forget that when someone dials the address it shows up on the recieving ends. And these are a comps, the coding or addy is automatically given to them. They didn't need Weir to give the address, but when you say you come from somewhere that needs ZPM's...cause your asking for aid, when you got nothing to offer.

Surely they will know the address to Atlantis, which means Weir is not at fault since they would've known the truth long before she ever stepped foot in their city. They wouldn't need any clues from Weir herself.

vaberella
August 16th, 2006, 04:01 PM
This is exactly what I am saying. You said "but the Ancients wouldn't want them to be otherwise..or their weapon had definitely become no longer a machine but a living thing to be respected". That is why I'm saying the Ancients were smart. By denying the Asurans the ability to become "no longer a machine but a living thing to be respected" they were trying to make sure that their weapon stayed a weapon. It's easy to destroy something when you don't see it as a living thing to be respected. That's all I'm saying. Morally, it's a difference issue no doubt.
Maybe it's the wording, but there's an elemnt from your first post, I quoted, to this one, I'm still lost about. Could be why I'm not following you.




Look, I conceed that I shouldn't have said that the Asurans were probably ticked that Mckay froze them. I don't know. I just know that I wouldn't be too happy if someone froze me. I made an assumption. You're also making assumptions when you state that "probably a few thousand wish to ascend, probably Oberoth himself would like to ascend" and that "McKay would probably have been reverred for succesfully doing that for them". We don't know exactly how much of the population agrees with ascension. We only know that the team met 3 people in a small room with no other representatives around.
They met 3 of the high level Asurans not counting Oberoth. And the point of your statement was what I was responding too...the episode said that they, even Oberoth, wanted the agression element deleted. That was the main purpose of McKay's fiddling with their programming. Ascension could come in handy after that agression element came. But the purpose was to get rid of the agressions....McKay wasn't programming ascension, but those who wanted it, probably a few thousands if not millions might want to ascend. My assumptions were based after the fact, because it's a toss up. Oberoth looked in no rush, but you never know. I don't deny it.


I guess I'd be a Daniel then. I'd either get kicked out or choose to leave. ;)
Don't know much about Daniel besides 3 eps in season1, the movie, and what I've been told.


I have not once made assumptions or judgments about your personal beliefs. Please show me the same respect. Thank you.
Excuse me?! There was nothing personal in my statement. Based on your statemet, I made an analogy which is actually very freakishly similar. It would be the same context but brought to a real life situation. They would be considered pathetic by your estimation. I just don't think it's possible, but if it's possible...everyone/thing should get to achieve what they want.



I don't think it does. Intellectually, treating your handgun like a handgun is not a bad thing. Once you start looking at it as a living, thinking being, however, you have a moral decision to make. Morally, I don't agree with how the Ancients treated the Asurans. Intellectually, I can understand why they did.
Can we just be friends now? :)

I don't understand your meaning at all. A human who has a handgun and and sees it as a living thing needs to be in a looney bin. If the gun comes to life and talks and has will and reasoning....then yes it should be given consideration. These were living, they had reason, they evolved enough to have a will of their own. They became a separate entity so then they did deserve their right. So your statement does show contradiction...because overallhy in all things they were separate beings --who managed to squelch their computered aggresssion...they can't evolve the way you stated they should if they still have that program because their still inherently bound. That little element could of course set them free.

By the way, you were never my enemy in the first place.



Surely they will know the address to Atlantis, which means Weir is not at fault since they would've known the truth long before she ever stepped foot in their city. They wouldn't need any clues from Weir herself.

PG...did you read the rest of my post when you quoted my statement? And that element is not my problem nor my care. As I said it was the rest of the details after that. They would never have known she was on an Atlantian base if it wasn't for the fact she asked for the ZPM and said that she was from an Atlantis base. Which means, she divulged information that risked her people. They probably thought she was another pesky human from some off planet in the PG full of woodland creatures like the ewoks singing kumbayah and wearing fur. But once you say, 'Yes, I'm from an Atlantian base' then they research the addy...it's like you pushed the kill button.

So yeah, it was her fault.


:sheppardanime23::teylaanime08::mckayanime03:
Teyla in a McShep Sandwich!! :D

Chailyn
August 16th, 2006, 04:34 PM
[B]I don't understand your meaning at all.


I think we're both having that problem. Let's just throw in the towel, huh? It was nice debating you. ;)

bonadolq
August 16th, 2006, 06:15 PM
This is a great question. I too was wondering how to resolve this. Reese, if I remember correctly was the android that was created by some advanced civilization. Reese made the replicators as toys for herself, but she couldn't control them---and that is how the whole mess started.

Any ideas on how to resolve this?

Here is one thought:

The advanced civilization must have be Lantian. They created Reese and Reese had access to the entire Atlantis database. Reese looked around and created the replicators as toys for herself.

I would appreciate a better explanation.
From Post 187:Milky Way Replicator Creator: Janus, Moros/Merlin, or Other?(was Re: Progeny (305) )

Given that Reese from Menace said her father left her, I figured I'd ask the inevitable question, "Who do you think was Reese's Creator; Janus, Moros/Merlin, or another Alterran/Ancient?"

Some suporting data:

1.Time ship in the Milky Way: Good to be King

2. Moros/Merlin and Janus returning to the Milky Way and creating various technologies over the ages (the bloodstone, timeship,etc.)


from post 193
This also makes me think if it was an Ancient that created Reese then he didn't learn his lesson with how the Asurans turned out.

from post 194

Well... he programed the SG1 replicators differently than the Asurians. Maybe he thought that would make the difference. But yeah, didn't learn his lesson.

PG15
August 16th, 2006, 06:54 PM
PG...did you read the rest of my post when you quoted my statement?

Sure did. I'm just saying that if the Asurans can find out the incoming gate adress, then the damage was done when we sent our MALP, and whatever happens afterwards is moot.

But that's not what we're debating.


They would never have known she was on an Atlantian base if it wasn't for the fact she asked for the ZPM and said that she was from an Atlantis base. Which means, she divulged information that risked her people. They probably thought she was another pesky human from some off planet in the PG full of woodland creatures like the ewoks singing kumbayah and wearing fur. But once you say, 'Yes, I'm from an Atlantian base' then they research the addy...it's like you pushed the kill button.


Hindsight is 20/20 if you ask me. We'll have to agree to disagree on this one, for the same reasons as with the argument I had with uknesvuinng; I just think that there were too many unknowns as to what Weir could and couldn't say.

OutThere
August 16th, 2006, 07:49 PM
I liked this episode, though like a lot of people I was experiencing Unnatural Selection flashbacks while watching. During the last half hour I kept waiting for some unexpected plot twist, and was disappointed when none ever materialized.

Niam, at least, does seem different from Fifth, and I don't think he will necessarily become an enemy. The Atlantis crew did try to take him with them.

So the RepliAncients created the Hot Zone virus? Anyone else think that their plan to get rid of the Wraith involved starving them to death by killing all the humans? Look at the problems Team Atlantis created for the Wraith by waking them up early, before their food supply was adequately restocked. Having all the humans in Pegasus drop dead all at once would certainly put a crimp in the Wraith's day. And such a plan is probably a far cry from what the Ancients originally planned for the RepliAncients to do-- might explain the Ancients' desire to utterly destroy them.

funks
August 16th, 2006, 08:09 PM
So the RepliAncients created the Hot Zone virus? Anyone else think that their plan to get rid of the Wraith involved starving them to death by killing all the humans? Look at the problems Team Atlantis created for the Wraith by waking them up early, before their food supply was adequately restocked. Having all the humans in Pegasus drop dead all at once would certainly put a crimp in the Wraith's day. And such a plan is probably a far cry from what the Ancients originally planned for the RepliAncients to do-- might explain the Ancients' desire to utterly destroy them.

maybe there was some truth to what oberoth stated in the beginning in regards to a "disagreement" and not heeding their "counsel".

Somebody stated earlier that maybe the asurans "proposed" (created the hotzone virus) to kill off the humans in the pegasus galaxy. This is maybe why the hotzone virus was in atlantis (They lanteans were probably studying the "proposal").

Then maybe lantians realized that their creations became a bit *TOO* extreme (a) and decided to wipe them out. It seems the ancients allowed the asurans to create their own society, co-existing, nevertheless, the extremism might be what caused the camels back to break.

(a) in line with what weir stated, that they somewhat felt that the humans were the ancients favored creations, hence creating the nanozone virus to kill off the humans in the pegasus galaxy wasn't a big deal for the asurans, especially with their programmed agression)

theory - Basically, the lanteans built these nanites (which later became asurans) specifically to attack wraith physiology (wouldn't have made sense for them to design the nanites to target humans). Then the asurans *proposed* to use modified nanites targeted towards the humans physiology instead(b). Hence disagreement - lanteans decided their creations were a bit too *extreme* and decided to wipe them out.

(b) hot zone virus - kill of the wraith food supply which the asurans thought were in line with what the lanteans wanted - to kill of the wraith.

vaberella
August 16th, 2006, 09:22 PM
Sure did. I'm just saying that if the Asurans can find out the incoming gate adress, then the damage was done when we sent our MALP, and whatever happens afterwards is moot.

But that's not what we're debating.

You're not getting it. If she never said she needed ZPM's and proving that it was Atlantian...that means the Asuran's wouldn't care. That means if she never went to meet Oberoth, he would have let them go, assuming they were just advanced natives of PG.

But when she said Atlantis he wanted it destroyed because she said it was of Atlantian design. So it was her fault. And the MALP means nothing, because it could have been a place like SATEDA they were from.

O'Neill is funny
August 16th, 2006, 09:48 PM
Awesome episode! anyone think they can be a serious threat to the wraith? ancient technology, multiply faster then the wraith can by far, can make their own ZPM's and power the place...imagine how many ZPM's they got! I was getting goosebumps and antsy on my chair when the ships got out of hyperspace and were shooting down at Atlantis. Of course it had to be fake...but still! 7 ships and another 15 from hyperspace, they were hiveships (wraith i'm not sure of though...).

Mitchell82
August 16th, 2006, 10:46 PM
Awesome episode! anyone think they can be a serious threat to the wraith? ancient technology, multiply faster then the wraith can by far, can make their own ZPM's and power the place...imagine how many ZPM's they got! I was getting goosebumps and antsy on my chair when the ships got out of hyperspace and were shooting down at Atlantis. Of course it had to be fake...but still! 7 ships and another 15 from hyperspace, they were hiveships (wraith i'm not sure of though...).
It's possible. But they are a major threat to us first.

PG15
August 16th, 2006, 11:55 PM
You're not getting it. If she never said she needed ZPM's and proving that it was Atlantian...that means the Asuran's wouldn't care. That means if she never went to meet Oberoth, he would have let them go, assuming they were just advanced natives of PG.

But when she said Atlantis he wanted it destroyed because she said it was of Atlantian design. So it was her fault. And the MALP means nothing, because it could have been a place like SATEDA they were from.

Evidently you didn't finish reading my post.

In my line of thought, the Asurans are machines, like computers, so they should be able to access info without "carring" or that other human stuff. If they see an address they'll know it's from Atlantis since it was an important place to them, like a keyword search; ie. they'll recognize it's from Atlantis the moment they see the adress.

Since they obviously didn't act like that, I can only assume that they don't know where that wormhole originated from, and the suspicions only started during Weir's talk with him, when none of us nor Weir truly comprehends the danger of her words.

But then, none of us really live through the day thinking the worst case scenerios at all times, so I can't really blame her.

Oh, one more thing. Weir's goal here, as would be all of ours I would imagine, is to form an alliance with the Asurans. You can't do that without having a face-to-face convo with the opposite party and diverging at least some bits of info. It just doesn't make sense to me.

In her shoes I would definately not let go of this chance for a great alliance, I would try the hardest (diplomatically) to strike up some kind of deal, and that's what Weir did.

Like I said, we'll have to agree to disagree.

doylefan22
August 17th, 2006, 02:48 AM
Oh, one more thing. Weir's goal here, as would be all of ours I would imagine, is to form an alliance with the Asurans. You can't do that without having a face-to-face convo with the opposite party and diverging at least some bits of info. It just doesn't make sense to me.

Yup.

And you can't deny Atlantis REALLY needs those ZPMs. It's not like they stumble across fully working ones everyday. At the moment they are riding their luck by hiding themselves - if the Wraith ever find them, they've got no chance.

In the circumstances, considering she had no reason to distrust them, I think it's perfectly understandable that she was honest with them and laid out what they needed and that they were willing to come to some arrangement.

ShadowMaat
August 17th, 2006, 04:45 AM
Unless the entire city is going to collapse within the next 24 hours I don't think Atlantis is that desperate for a ZPM that they can't exercise some basic caution and take their time to do things right. Why does Weir have to go RIGHT NOW? Why can't she wait a few days- or even a few hours- for Sheppard to scope things out first? Does she think he's going to screw things up (or just screw someone) if she isn't there to be in control? ;) The reasoning behind her being on the first contact mission is extremely dodgy to me and no amount of fanwanking is going to make the situation "right" in my mind. This is just yet another example of the stupidity and dangerous impetuosity of Team Atlantis. It's a wonder they aren't all dead ten times over given the way they've been behaving the past couple of seasons.

CalmStorm
August 17th, 2006, 07:40 AM
Unless the entire city is going to collapse within the next 24 hours I don't think Atlantis is that desperate for a ZPM that they can't exercise some basic caution and take their time to do things right. Why does Weir have to go RIGHT NOW? Why can't she wait a few days- or even a few hours- for Sheppard to scope things out first? Does she think he's going to screw things up (or just screw someone) if she isn't there to be in control? ;) The reasoning behind her being on the first contact mission is extremely dodgy to me and no amount of fanwanking is going to make the situation "right" in my mind. This is just yet another example of the stupidity and dangerous impetuosity of Team Atlantis. It's a wonder they aren't all dead ten times over given the way they've been behaving the past couple of seasons.

So if a poster supports Weir going off-world, and has no issue with the way it was handled in this episode it is "fanwanking"

I've seen some very well thought out posts in support of Weir going off-world, and I've seen some very well thought out posts against her going offworld. I've also seen some very poor posts that are nothing but Weir lovers and Weir haters just dissing or praising the choice with no real support behind their reasoning.

I agree with the decision and like the way it was handled. However, I would not call what I was doing "fanwanking"

To me, there's no reason for Weir to be the "protected one" safe and sound back on Atlantis. There is regular contact with Earth and there is the Daedalus. If something were to happen to Weir now, it would not be impossible to fill the position with someone else. So I would think that she is fully capable of going off-world a little more now than before.

Also, I can't blame her, or anyone else in that position from not going on that mission and believe it would be worth the risk. If I were Weir, I would want to go on this mission simply because of its importance and the opportunity to see first hand. I don't see Weir, or anyone in that position, as someone needing to be coddled. If she wants to go off-world good for her. If she wants to stay planted at Atlantis good for her.

You ask why does she have to go RIGHT NOW, and I ask why should she always have to wait? I think it's just a difference of opinion. I'm not trying to convince anyone I am right anymore than I am allowing another to convince me they are right. I'm not trying to tell posters they are wrong, and no amount of my "fanwanking" is intended to do so.

stubadingdong
August 17th, 2006, 08:17 AM
Unless the entire city is going to collapse within the next 24 hours I don't think Atlantis is that desperate for a ZPM that they can't exercise some basic caution and take their time to do things right. Why does Weir have to go RIGHT NOW? Why can't she wait a few days- or even a few hours- for Sheppard to scope things out first? Does she think he's going to screw things up (or just screw someone) if she isn't there to be in control? ;) The reasoning behind her being on the first contact mission is extremely dodgy to me and no amount of fanwanking is going to make the situation "right" in my mind. This is just yet another example of the stupidity and dangerous impetuosity of Team Atlantis. It's a wonder they aren't all dead ten times over given the way they've been behaving the past couple of seasons.

Why would they wait? Why would Sheppard and his team have to scope anything out? As far as the Atlantis team knows, the MALP found an actual Ancient civilization still alive and flourishing. They said to come over as friends. And the Team has no reason not to trust an Ancient. They've been established as allies (for lack of a better term) up to this point.

I don't see the issue. They never thought Ancients still existed let alone were not to be trusted. It's all they know. They live in this city abandoned by this mighty race (in their eyes) and suddenly they've got a very golden opportunity to get some help from the very people that created this technology.

Chailyn
August 17th, 2006, 09:06 AM
Oh, I just remembered another moment I loved about this episode. When Rodney poked Sheppard in the head to make sure he was real. Just the way DH did it cracked me up. I wonder how many times they had to take that shot. It's a wonder JF was able to keep a straight face seeing DH's finger coming at his head. :sheppard28:

uknesvuinng
August 17th, 2006, 09:53 AM
Why would they wait? Why would Sheppard and his team have to scope anything out? As far as the Atlantis team knows, the MALP found an actual Ancient civilization still alive and flourishing. They said to come over as friends. And the Team has no reason not to trust an Ancient. They've been established as allies (for lack of a better term) up to this point.

I don't see the issue. They never thought Ancients still existed let alone were not to be trusted. It's all they know. They live in this city abandoned by this mighty race (in their eyes) and suddenly they've got a very golden opportunity to get some help from the very people that created this technology.
Because two seconds of thought would tell you that just because it looks like a society of Ancients, doesn't mean it is. And there's no rule that says Ancients have to be nice people. In fact, this episode fairly well proved that by our human morality, they aren't very nice at all.

The President, Vice President, and Speaker of the House will never be in the same location at the same time. Why? Because if they are, there's the unnecessary possibility that they could all be eliminated in a single act, causing a serious (albeit temporary) blow to the leadership of America. And this is inside the United States, where we have a great deal of control over the situation. There is no valid, intelligent justification for sending the whole main leadership of Atlantis into a first contact situation with a plethora of unknowns, and at least one known that the civilization is advanced enough that if they just want to kill you, there's nothing you can do about it. Had the Asurans been totally united in their desires, AR-1 and Weir would be dead, and Atlantis would have been reduced to rubble.

CalmStorm
August 17th, 2006, 10:14 AM
Because two seconds of thought would tell you that just because it looks like a society of Ancients, doesn't mean it is. And there's no rule that says Ancients have to be nice people. In fact, this episode fairly well proved that by our human morality, they aren't very nice at all.

I think they went in with caution. I thought they made several references along the lines of...if these people really are ancients. They went in hopeful, not blind. McKay even said that just because they have ancient devices does not mean they are ancient. The entire group seemed optimistic, but cautiously optimistic. Even once there, they continued the discussion of whether they were in fact what they said they were.


The President, Vice President, and Speaker of the House will never be in the same location at the same time. Why? Because if they are, there's the unnecessary possibility that they could all be eliminated in a single act, causing a serious (albeit temporary) blow to the leadership of America. And this is inside the United States, where we have a great deal of control over the situation. There is no valid, intelligent justification for sending the whole main leadership of Atlantis into a first contact situation with a plethora of unknowns, and at least one known that the civilization is advanced enough that if they just want to kill you, there's nothing you can do about it. Had the Asurans been totally united in their desires, AR-1 and Weir would be dead, and Atlantis would have been reduced to rubble.

This is the leadership structure of a single country that contains fifty states and is responsible to a huge population. The loss of several top members of the chain of command could have a disasterous impact on the entire population in regards to safety and economics. I cannot compare that to the chain of command of an expedition team of a few hundred. If something were to happen to Weir and Sheppard, the expedition team would not go crazy. They would not riot, they would not be running around as if the sky were falling. For all we know, there could be someone very capable in charge while Weir and company are out. However, we can only make assumptions as we are not shown this in the 45 minutes or so they have to tell a story. The impact of Weir and company being taken out and the prime leaders in a government in charge of a very large culture are, to me, completely different.

uknesvuinng
August 17th, 2006, 10:39 AM
For all we know, there could be someone very capable in charge while Weir and company are out. However, we can only make assumptions as we are not shown this in the 45 minutes or so they have to tell a story. The impact of Weir and company being taken out and the prime leaders in a government in charge of a very large culture are, to me, completely different.
This in itself speaks volumes about even the possibility of having decent leadership should an emergency develop. We can't even come to a concensus about who might be "in charge" while the main leadership is away. No one else really sticks out as being a strong leader. Atlantis is supposed to be the most important venture humanity has ever taken, yet they're willing to risk it unnecessarily?

bluealien
August 17th, 2006, 10:42 AM
This is the leadership structure of a single country that contains fifty states and is responsible to a huge population. The loss of several top members of the chain of command could have a disasterous impact on the entire population in regards to safety and economics. I cannot compare that to the chain of command of an expedition team of a few hundred.

If we are to believe that Weirs responsibility is only to the expedition team then I would agree that she isn't really all that important in the scheme of things and Atantis could run quite easily without her.

This is why I found her order to destroy the city so unbelievable. Were the team and a few hundred were worth the lives of millions. She took this decision so lightly that I found it cold and callous. BUT if we are to believe that Weirs was acting on behalf of not just the expedition but pretty much the entire human race then her going off world and creating friction between a race of people she knows nothing about is a whole different story. She told Niam when she was convincing him to betray his people that her whole race depended on her destroying the Asurans, because presumably she had decided that they were a threat to the whole of mankind and needed to be wiped out



The impact of Weir and company being taken out and the prime leaders in a government in charge of a very large culture are, to me, completely different.

The impact of Weir being taken out would not create a huge problem but the impact of Weirs decisions do not just effect the expedition members but earth as well ....

as we have seen in Allies where her decision put earth in danger and again in Progeny.

Gabophis
August 17th, 2006, 10:44 AM
very very great episode,i ve really enjoyed it
but i was said when the others reseted niam and shep. had to let him be in space :( that last view of episode was really sad :( :( :( it was like some time ago with the fifth :(

maxbo
August 17th, 2006, 10:47 AM
I don’t think Elizabeth should ever go on a first contact mission, especially when the people they plan to meet could be as advanced as Atlantis is. Not only is she Atlantis’ leader, but she doesn’t have combat skills so if the first contact situation turned dangerous, she would likely become a liability because she would need to be protected more than the others, even Rodney.

I realize that TPTB wanted Elizabeth off world to set up future episodes, however, they should have thought this out more. They could have used a set up similar to what they used in Inferno where the Team checked out the location first, and then Elizabeth arrived later, after determining that it would be better to negotiate with that world’s leader in person.

Also, this assumption that if it appears to be Ancient and/or Ancient-related then it must be okay, is making our crew look like they should have kick-me signs on their backs. The writing in this instance is beyond confusing because on the one hand Sheppard (and Ronon and Teyla) is written as being immediately suspicious of the Asurans, yet he’s not written as trying to talk Elizabeth out of accompanying the Team on first contact. The very fact that a people as advanced as the Asurans were thriving in a world dominated by the Wraith, yet there was no record of them assisting the other Pegasus galaxy residents should have had red flags flying all over the place.

In fact, this seemed to be the source of Sheppard, Ronon and Teyla’s concerns. So why was Elizabeth written to disregard this to accompany the team on their first visit to Asuras. Plot-driven, character-dulling writing drives me crazy, especially when better solutions are readily available.

stubadingdong
August 17th, 2006, 10:52 AM
Because two seconds of thought would tell you that just because it looks like a society of Ancients, doesn't mean it is. And there's no rule that says Ancients have to be nice people. In fact, this episode fairly well proved that by our human morality, they aren't very nice at all.

Since historically, on the actual show, the Ancients are for the most part portrayed as "friend" that's how the Team went into it. They have no reason not to trust them given what they know. They had no reason to assume otherwise and acted on all the information that Daniel and SG-1 logged. They were optimistic in the hopes that this society could help them battle against the Wraith, as their ancestors did.

Hindsight is most often 20/20. The episode is meant to catch the characters off-guard and rethink their ideas of what and who the Ancients really were. SG-1 has kind of allowed the Atlantis team to put them on a pedestal. Now they've realized that maybe that's not the case. They're still muddling through. As far as I'm concerned, SGA was supposed to have had their image of the Ancients shattered via this episode.


The President, Vice President, and Speaker of the House will never be in the same location at the same time. Why? Because if they are, there's the unnecessary possibility that they could all be eliminated in a single act, causing a serious (albeit temporary) blow to the leadership of America. And this is inside the United States, where we have a great deal of control over the situation. There is no valid, intelligent justification for sending the whole main leadership of Atlantis into a first contact situation with a plethora of unknowns, and at least one known that the civilization is advanced enough that if they just want to kill you, there's nothing you can do about it. Had the Asurans been totally united in their desires, AR-1 and Weir would be dead, and Atlantis would have been reduced to rubble.

I'm not sure they thought this was a typical first contact situation, though. But again, I also think it was another intentional screw-up, for the benefit of advancing the plot and establishing a new enemy. There's no reason to think that the Asurans wouldn't have tipped their hand to Sheppard anyway. He could have gone in and arranged for diplomatic talks, and they'd still be in the same situation. We'll never know.

CalmStorm
August 17th, 2006, 10:57 AM
This in itself speaks volumes about even the possibility of having decent leadership should an emergency develop. We can't even come to a concensus about who might be "in charge" while the main leadership is away. No one else really sticks out as being a strong leader. Atlantis is supposed to be the most important venture humanity has ever taken, yet they're willing to risk it unnecessarily?

I guess in my own little world, I choose to assume that there is someone capable in charge when others are away. I choose to assume this because it would make sense to me for that to be the case, and I understand that I will not be shown all the background details in an episode that is focused on the main cast and their adventures. I do not know this for fact, I cannot even say that my assumption is close to accurate. I can say that this assumption allows me to enjoy the show.

I would think that Lorne would be a good choice to fill in while Weir is away. He seems to be second in command to Sheppard and has shown that he is capable of maintaing order and handling circumstances as they occur.

stubadingdong
August 17th, 2006, 11:11 AM
I guess in my own little world, I choose to assume that there is someone capable in charge when others are away. I choose to assume this because it would make sense to me for that to be the case, and I understand that I will not be shown all the background details in an episode that is focused on the main cast and their adventures. I do not know this for fact, I cannot even say that my assumption is close to accurate. I can say that this assumption allows me to enjoy the show.


I think it's called suspension of disbelief or some technical term like that. I've found that if I employ this technique, I get way more enjoyment out of shows. ;)

uknesvuinng
August 17th, 2006, 11:27 AM
I think it's called suspension of disbelief or some technical term like that. I've found that if I employ this technique, I get way more enjoyment out of shows. ;)
Suspension of disbelief only works to a point, then you're staring at your screen wondering why the writers wrote such a mistake when better options were available and required no real effort to implement. Let AR-1 meet them first, then bring in Weir. Don't have her just rushing off pointlessly and against common security solely to set up a future plot line.

Sometimes I wonder if the writers are intentionally avoiding simple and obvious fixes to plot inconsistencies and silliness.

stubadingdong
August 17th, 2006, 12:10 PM
Suspension of disbelief only works to a point, then you're staring at your screen wondering why the writers wrote such a mistake when better options were available and required no real effort to implement. Let AR-1 meet them first, then bring in Weir. Don't have her just rushing off pointlessly and against common security solely to set up a future plot line.

Sometimes I wonder if the writers are intentionally avoiding simple and obvious fixes to plot inconsistencies and silliness.

They've only got an extremely limited amount of time to write all of this in. Granted, they could have written a line in there so the audience would know that this isn't first contact.

That said, I do think it's intentional. Earth humans are very arrogant. We think we're superior to everything and we're learning that this so isn't the case in the Pegasus Galaxy. In order for this expedition to learn this, they need to keep making these mistakes. Things here are not even close to similar as Earth. That's where, for the audience, the suspension of disbelief comes into play. We all know it's a tv show, therefore we need to let go of some the standards we'd hold our own government/leaders to.

But that's just how I see it. I don't think it's a big deal. In order for these characters to grow and get used to their new home, they're gonna screw it up. Sometimes the mistakes will be small and sometimes they'll be huge, but they'll be necessary to learn.

uknesvuinng
August 17th, 2006, 12:28 PM
They've only got an extremely limited amount of time to write all of this in. Granted, they could have written a line in there so the audience would know that this isn't first contact.

That said, I do think it's intentional. Earth humans are very arrogant. We think we're superior to everything and we're learning that this so isn't the case in the Pegasus Galaxy. In order for this expedition to learn this, they need to keep making these mistakes. Things here are not even close to similar as Earth. That's where, for the audience, the suspension of disbelief comes into play. We all know it's a tv show, therefore we need to let go of some the standards we'd hold our own government/leaders to.

But that's just how I see it. I don't think it's a big deal. In order for these characters to grow and get used to their new home, they're gonna screw it up. Sometimes the mistakes will be small and sometimes they'll be huge, but they'll be necessary to learn.
They shouldn't be making mistakes that even rookies would avoid on their third year in the area (presuming 1 season = 1 year). Some mistakes shouldn't be made, especially if these people are supposed to be experienced in things like diplomacy and military tactics.

stubadingdong
August 17th, 2006, 01:24 PM
They shouldn't be making mistakes that even rookies would avoid on their third year in the area (presuming 1 season = 1 year). Some mistakes shouldn't be made, especially if these people are supposed to be experienced in things like diplomacy and military tactics.

That's kinda my point. Their experience is mostly in Earth diplomacy and Earth tactics and they're still in that mindset. In order to be successful in the Pegasus Galaxy, they need to adapt to their environment and the ways things work there. When they do try Pegasus tactics, people are displeased by those as well. Maybe the reason folks have such complaints is because it goes against their own Earth logic and Earth morals. The SGA team shouldn't be expected to adhere to these. They're not on Earth. And that's why I can allow these mistakes. I may not like them, but I get that it needs to happen.

By the way, I understand your point. I'm just trying to present a different angle (and maybe some justification) to their mistakes. Because I understand them doesn't necessarily mean I condone them.

uknesvuinng
August 17th, 2006, 01:41 PM
That's kinda my point. Their experience is mostly in Earth diplomacy and Earth tactics and they're still in that mindset. In order to be successful in the Pegasus Galaxy, they need to adapt to their environment and the ways things work there. When they do try Pegasus tactics, people are displeased by those as well. Maybe the reason folks have such complaints is because it goes against their own Earth logic and Earth morals. The SGA team shouldn't be expected to adhere to these. They're not on Earth. And that's why I can allow these mistakes. I may not like them, but I get that it needs to happen.

By the way, I understand your point. I'm just trying to present a different angle (and maybe some justification) to their mistakes. Because I understand them doesn't necessarily mean I condone them.
But they weren't in an Earth mindset. They made mistakes that are mistakes no matter where you are. Location, culture, etc. are completely irrelevant. You don't put the entire leadership in danger unnecessarily. You don't go in giving away your bargaining position when there's no rush to obtain what you seek nor do you know what the other side wants. This is basic strategy and negotiation. It doesn't change when you go to a new galaxy.

bluealien
August 17th, 2006, 02:16 PM
That's kinda my point. Their experience is mostly in Earth diplomacy and Earth tactics and they're still in that mindset. In order to be successful in the Pegasus Galaxy, they need to adapt to their environment and the ways things work there. When they do try Pegasus tactics, people are displeased by those as well. Maybe the reason folks have such complaints is because it goes against their own Earth logic and Earth morals. The SGA team shouldn't be expected to adhere to these. They're not on Earth. And that's why I can allow these mistakes. I may not like them, but I get that it needs to happen.

By the way, I understand your point. I'm just trying to present a different angle (and maybe some justification) to their mistakes. Because I understand them doesn't necessarily mean I condone them.

Well for me diplomacy is diplomacy no matter where you are. Weir is ment to be skilled in dealing with Earths different nations and as we know they are vastly different in customs and ways of thinking. Why wouldn't her diplomatic skills apply exactly the same in the Pegasus galaxy. She didn't even apply basic negotiating or diplomatic skillis with the Asurans. As I've said before she should be able to deal with all different scenarios otherwise she is no different from anyone else on the expedition team.

I don't understand why morals and ethics should be discarded whilst in the Pegasus Galaxay. What about the teams own personal morals and ethics. They are still human so why not apply human values.

If they consider every enemy they encounter in the Pegasus galaxy to be less important than they are, and not worth treating as sentient beings then how are they any better than them. What makes us so special if we are going to stoop to the same level as our enemy. We have decided that they are not worth negotiating with - as in Michael - and definitely not worth trusting - again with Michael. They took the same stance with the Asurans. The team and Weir decide that Atlantis and even humanity is in peril, even though the Asurans had lived for thousands of years and never bothered anyone - but now they are a danger to mankind and the only solution is to wipe them out. I could have understood Weirs decision if the Asurans had threatened to wipe out humanity or even if she had given us some impression that she found it a difficult decision to make. But why didn't she have Atlantis evacuate. That may have given Rodney the time he needed to try and re write their base code. or have more of the Asuranas that were on their side help them.

So now Atlantis has another enemy they need to watch out for. Are they really doing themselves any favours clocking up these enemys. Maybe if they could consider that not all the wraith are evil monsters and put more effort into finding another way for them to feed. Who knows if Michael could have been an asset to them in this area - but again he wasn't even given the chance. The theme throughout Progeny was that the team were just as arrogant and condesending as the Asurans. They had judged them after a few minutes and because they weren't obviously "Ancienty" they became as condensending in their actions to them as Oberoth was to them.

If an unknown race came to Atlantis and demanded Puddle Jumbers would Weir say yes. If they were offering something much less in value she would have reacted the same as Oberoth, so why should she get so annoyed that Oberoth was not interested in trading with her.

But is looks like the writers are intent on giving us one dementional villians and depicting these enemys as being thoroughly evil, and the only option is for the heroes to wipe them out. Things are never that simple and the bad guys and not always that bad, and the good guys are not always that good. It would be nice if the writers could delve into this a bit more and maybe show the team dealing with the consequences of their actions at times and not just treating it so casuaully.

vaberella
August 17th, 2006, 02:20 PM
Evidently you didn't finish reading my post.

In my line of thought, the Asurans are machines, like computers, so they should be able to access info without "carring" or that other human stuff. If they see an address they'll know it's from Atlantis since it was an important place to them, like a keyword search; ie. they'll recognize it's from Atlantis the moment they see the adress.

Since they obviously didn't act like that, I can only assume that they don't know where that wormhole originated from, and the suspicions only started during Weir's talk with him, when none of us nor Weir truly comprehends the danger of her words.

But then, none of us really live through the day thinking the worst case scenerios at all times, so I can't really blame her.

Oh, one more thing. Weir's goal here, as would be all of ours I would imagine, is to form an alliance with the Asurans. You can't do that without having a face-to-face convo with the opposite party and diverging at least some bits of info. It just doesn't make sense to me.

In her shoes I would definately not let go of this chance for a great alliance, I would try the hardest (diplomatically) to strike up some kind of deal, and that's what Weir did.

Like I said, we'll have to agree to disagree.


Fine, although it was evident that they did not recognize that the gate address was from Atlantis, nor another city-ship. It was ignored and they gave them hospitality until they were to leave. But when she informed them of where she comes from, then they probably analyzed the address, stopped her and her team from going and then probed their minds. Again to suggest that the Asurans did not know about the city ship or that they came from one, until Weir went to negotiate for something with nothing, to a leader who had already disregarded her position.

As for worst case scenarios...I do. I can't afford not too. You have to sit there and check out the pros and cons before making any decisions that not only affect you but also affect those around you. That would just be a rational humanistic thing to do, and intelligent. Of course there's nothing to say that it would still benefit you, but at least you looked out the pros and cons. In this situation much of the cons were her choices and disregarding safe guards.

Come on now, I'm still wondering why she didn't ask for her people to evacuate Atlantis while they were on their way. That would have been my first thought. Or even have McKay relay info back since he had control of their master programs--to be able to tap in the program to Niam....rig up several zpms into imploding and various other things.

For negotiation. She divulged enough information in the first hand meetings with her crew behind her. He was totally unattentive and very interesting. When doing negotiations again you do not say much, did you see Oberoth in the meeting?! Did he say much, or just ask a lot? Yeah, ask a lot---that's what a leader does. I have been to many negotiations, when it's an uncertain second party you don't divulge information but state enough to test---she did that the first time. The second she just spouted it out without saying atlantis but atlantian city ship---as they did have more than one, like in Athos and The Tower, and the planet in Trinity.

PG15
August 17th, 2006, 02:21 PM
Well for me diplomacy is diplomacy no matter where you are. Weir is ment to be skilled in dealing with Earths different nations and as we know they are vastly different in customs and ways of thinking. Why wouldn't her diplomatic skills apply exactly the same in the Pegasus galaxy.

Maybe because they weren't human?

Sure, diplomacy is tough on Earth, and all of our customs differ, but think this: this is all happening on one planet. How different would it be if it involved different planets and none-humans?

Weir's challenge is waaaaay more than any diplomat on Earth, and she was pretty much thrown into that.

vaberella , I'll say this: no one would've seen that coming; Weir acted like anybody would.

nightowl300
August 17th, 2006, 02:56 PM
It was a great episode. I give it a 10.

Weir's actions is what anybody would have done. Who says the Asurans have a plan to destroy the wraith.

doylefan22
August 17th, 2006, 03:01 PM
It was a great episode. I give it a 10.

Weir's actions is what anybody would have done. Who says the Asurans have a plan to destroy the wraith.

And even if they did have a plan there's reason to believe it is the Hot Zone virus and that doesn't do the Atlantis team much good.

stubadingdong
August 17th, 2006, 03:20 PM
She didn't even apply basic negotiating or diplomatic skillis with the Asurans. As I've said before she should be able to deal with all different scenarios otherwise she is no different from anyone else on the expedition team.

Sure she applied her negotiating skills. She immediately hit a brick wall and had nowhere to go. Her prediction for this scenario was that these guys are Ancients. And by their own experience with Ancients, she thought that they'd be willing to help with the Wraith. There was one variable that Weir couldn't have possibly known, and that is that the Asurans are machines and don't give a flying frak what happens to anyone else. How is she supposed to prepare for that? One gains negotiating experience with other cultures by first having to deal with it. This was a first, hence now they'll know in the future.


I don't understand why morals and ethics should be discarded whilst in the Pegasus Galaxay. What about the teams own personal morals and ethics. They are still human so why not apply human values.

Because in the Pegasus Galaxy, humans are not the superior ones. The Wraith are (top of the food chain and all that). If humans from Earth show compassion towards the Wraith, as they already have, they've learned that the Wraith don't return the courtesy. They get eaten either way. Again, they have to adapt to this new universe, not wait for everyone else in the PG to adapt to them. How arrogant is that??


If they consider every enemy they encounter in the Pegasus galaxy to be less important than they are, and not worth treating as sentient beings then how are they any better than them.

I don't know who you're talking about here. The Wraith? The Asurans? The SGA team? Is that a question even?


What makes us so special if we are going to stoop to the same level as our enemy.

What level have we stooped to? Survival? We expected to go for information, and lookit here, we're suddenly spending all of our time trying to stay away from the Wraith.


We have decided that they are not worth negotiating with - as in Michael - and definitely not worth trusting - again with Michael. They took the same stance with the Asurans. The team and Weir decide that Atlantis and even humanity is in peril, even though the Asurans had lived for thousands of years and never bothered anyone - but now they are a danger to mankind and the only solution is to wipe them out. I could have understood Weirs decision if the Asurans had threatened to wipe out humanity or even if she had given us some impression that she found it a difficult decision to make. But why didn't she have Atlantis evacuate. That may have given Rodney the time he needed to try and re write their base code. or have more of the Asuranas that were on their side help them.

Remember when Michael was a Wraith? We don't have any enemies on Earth even close to the Wraith. The Team has to employ any means necessary to ensure their survival. Michael experiments was one way. Instead of killing the Wraith, the idea behind it is to turn them human so that everyone stays alive. Not being Wraith anymore, they'll survive on plants and stuff. As for the Asurans, they only blew up one ship in order to prevent the destruction of Atlantis. Do you think Oberoth would go all soft once he got to orbit? He was gonna blow up Atlantis. Rodney beat him to it. As for the communication to Atlantis...who knows? I'd like to think that between all the team members, someone would have thought it up and would have made mention of it if it were possible. But since they didn't, I'll assume it wasn't possible as much as you're assuming it was. With the lack of information, who's right? And does it really matter? Would Atlantis have had time to evacuate? We don't know.


So now Atlantis has another enemy they need to watch out for. Are they really doing themselves any favours clocking up these enemys. Maybe if they could consider that not all the wraith are evil monsters and put more effort into finding another way for them to feed. Who knows if Michael could have been an asset to them in this area - but again he wasn't even given the chance.

I might buy that whole not-all-Wraith-are-life-sucking-fiends theory if we'd ever seen any hint towards it since this show started. But that's not how they're portrayed and SGA is employing the kill-or-be-killed tactics. It's called survival. They've showed mercy to the Wraith and they got screwed. How many times do you expect them to keep doing that? And how long do you think the audience is going to tolerate that wishy-washy behavior?


The theme throughout Progeny was that the team were just as arrogant and condesending as the Asurans. They had judged them after a few minutes and because they weren't obviously "Ancienty" they became as condensending in their actions to them as Oberoth was to them.

Yes, and? Humans from Earth are arrogant. Humans in the Pegasus aren't. It's about time they learn that their "superior" ways aren't gonna cut it here.



If an unknown race came to Atlantis and demanded Puddle Jumbers would Weir say yes. If they were offering something much less in value she would have reacted the same as Oberoth, so why should she get so annoyed that Oberoth was not interested in trading with her.

How do you know that? Is that written somewhere? You don't know (nor does anyone else) how Weir or anyone else is going to react, not to mention under what circumstances this scenario might occur.


But is looks like the writers are intent on giving us one dementional villians and depicting these enemys as being thoroughly evil, and the only option is for the heroes to wipe them out. Things are never that simple and the bad guys and not always that bad, and the good guys are not always that good. It would be nice if the writers could delve into this a bit more and maybe show the team dealing with the consequences of their actions at times and not just treating it so casuaully.

Well, heroes on tv have an annoying habit of winning a lot. However, I do agree with your last sentence. It's a shame they only have 42 minutes to create a decent story, though.

doylefan22
August 17th, 2006, 04:39 PM
I don't understand why morals and ethics should be discarded whilst in the Pegasus Galaxay. What about the teams own personal morals and ethics. They are still human so why not apply human values.

Moral and ethics have to be flexible and depending upon circumstances. Someone stealing a car to go on a joyride is wrong, but what about a mother stealing to feed her kids? As a person you may think it is morally wrong to kill, but if someone broke into your house and started shooting at your family you'd do what you could to protect them. Morals are just as tricky in the Pegasus Galaxy. The Atlantis team haven't done anything because they're horrible people - they've done it because they're fighting a war which they inadvertantly caused, they're hugely outnumbered and many people are dying. They're doing it to save lives.


If they consider every enemy they encounter in the Pegasus galaxy to be less important than they are, and not worth treating as sentient beings then how are they any better than them.

I've never considered that to be the case. The Wraith? They are well aware that they are sentient beings. The Asurans? Well that's an extremely grey area...But in the end, yes, the team value the lives of their expedition higher than those of their enemies. And I don't really see what is wrong with that. Atlantis has never been the aggressor here. When races attack them then the attackers should not be surprised if they defend themselves by any means. Surely the team's first responsibility lies with their own people?


What makes us so special if we are going to stoop to the same level as our enemy.

But have they? The Wraith in particular have never shown an interest in not consuming humans. The whole retrovirus deal was an attempt to not have to kill the Wraith, trying to find another solution whereby they could at least still live. Have the Wraith ever shown the humans such courtesy? Have they ever shown remorse for devouring these highly sentient beings with families and lives? They look down on us far more than we look down on them.


We have decided that they are not worth negotiating with - as in Michael - and definitely not worth trusting - again with Michael.

What's to negotiate? They want to eat humans. What do the team do - negotiate a deal whereby they eat everyone else but us? Ask them very nicely not to try to come to Atlantis or get the address of Earth so they can go and eat everyone there too? The only time the team have trusted the Wraith they screwed us over. Michael himself swapped sides twice depending upon what suited him. Him giving his word is hardly good enough anymore. And what were they going to feed him on?


They took the same stance with the Asurans. The team and Weir decide that Atlantis and even humanity is in peril, even though the Asurans had lived for thousands of years and never bothered anyone - but now they are a danger to mankind and the only solution is to wipe them out.

To be fair to the team they were on their way to Atlantis to wipe it out. Atlantis was in serious danger; a fully capable city ship would likely wipe Atlantis out in one shot and everyone there would be killed. Not only that but they'd take with them virtually any chance the people in the galaxy had of stopping the Wraith.

The Asurans started an aggressive action and could not be disuaded. The team's ultimate responsibility is to the people in Atlantis. When you choose to attack you run the risk of people fighting back. It's a real shame it couldn't have gone another way but when the ship got so close to the city and the team saw the chance to take it out, they had little choice - it was the only course of action that guaranteed the safety of Atlantis and her inhabitants. Any other option was too risky. In an ideal world we'd have an hour show and there'd be time for a bit more talking around the matter but unfortunately it's restricted to 42 minutes...


I could have understood Weirs decision if the Asurans had threatened to wipe out humanity or even if she had given us some impression that she found it a difficult decision to make.

So the fact that they were going to wipe out the section of humanity she was responsible for isn't reason enough?


But why didn't she have Atlantis evacuate.

What gave you the impression they were capable of communicating with them?


That may have given Rodney the time he needed to try and re write their base code. or have more of the Asuranas that were on their side help them.

Rodney had already rewritten the base code. The implication was they were waiting for an automatic update to take place and spread it throughout the system. In the meantime they'd have to try to persuade Oberoth not to attack which seemed a highly unlikely proposition.


Maybe if they could consider that not all the wraith are evil monsters and put more effort into finding another way for them to feed.

What is there to suggest at all there is another way for them feed? And even if there was, why would the Wraith take it? From what we've seen they don't much care for one another let alone other races. Why would they bother doing humanity a favour when they've quite happily and easily been eating them for a thousand years. When a human-rights protesting Wraith shows up then the team may have something to think about, until then I think it is safe for them to assume there will be no suitable peaceful resolutions to this.


Who knows if Michael could have been an asset to them in this area - but again he wasn't even given the chance.

Again, they've no reason to trust him and they still have to feed him in the meantime...There can't be that many Kavanagh types they want to get rid of...;)


The theme throughout Progeny was that the team were just as arrogant and condesending as the Asurans. They had judged them after a few minutes and because they weren't obviously "Ancienty" they became as condensending in their actions to them as Oberoth was to them.

I read it as disappointed. Let's face it, the Asurans were jerks to them. Having had an entirely different idea of what the Ancients were like the team were very taken aback and rather put out by their conduct. And it is very hard not to judge a race when they more than have the means of helping save possibly millions of lives, yet sit there going 'we don't want to/can't be arsed/don't really care'. Since the Atlantis team has gone out of their way to help races less advanced than themselves it is a big kick in the teeth to not get that in return from people it would hardly be a problem for. Maybe that's their fault for expecting too much but to be blunt the Asurans were not very nice - cold, heartless, dismissive and uncaring.


If an unknown race came to Atlantis and demanded Puddle Jumbers would Weir say yes. If they were offering something much less in value she would have reacted the same as Oberoth, so why should she get so annoyed that Oberoth was not interested in trading with her.

I think it would depend on the situation and why they needed the PJs. She would certainly not refuse them outright the same way Oberoth did. And that's bearing in mind Atlantis has a limited supply of PJs - the Asurans could make ZPMs.

Again, her failing here was assuming that these people would be willing to help others the same way the Atlantis team does. She got most annoyed with him when he refused to even allow them to take refuge there if and when the Wraith attacked again. If the roles were reversed and a group of people came to Atlantis and said 'if we're really in trouble can we come and hide here?' I have no doubt she'd say 'yes'. It was clear that Oberoth had no compassion and did not care for the lives of anyone - and considering how different Elizabeth's views are, she took umbridge to that.


But is looks like the writers are intent on giving us one dementional villians and depicting these enemys as being thoroughly evil, and the only option is for the heroes to wipe them out. Things are never that simple and the bad guys and not always that bad, and the good guys are not always that good. It would be nice if the writers could delve into this a bit more and maybe show the team dealing with the consequences of their actions at times and not just treating it so casuaully.

The Wraith are evil from the humans pov - they eat people and show no compassion for the lives they take. There's nothing to redeem them but they were always intended to be like that - they are monsters. The Asurans I will reserve judgement on until we see more of them. From the synopses I have read things don't look as simple as what we might expect. What about the Genii though? There are many shades of grey there. They've been both villian and ally. They have the same goal as the team but go about it in very different ways; not always the best ways but you can understand their motivation.

I guess in summary I would say that I don't feel that any of the villians in Atlantis have been hard done by by the team, despite what some people on here seem to think. I don't know, maybe I'm getting harsher as I get older but I have no sympathy for the Wraith (and I'm surprised the team has even bothered trying find a way whereby they don't have to kill them) and the Asurans got what they asked for - when some race actively goes to wipe out a whole city of people who haven't even done anything against them then it's hard to feel much sympathy when they get taken out first. In the end I think the team have gotten their priorities right - try not to kill but if the lives of their own are at stake then they must come first.

rhade
August 17th, 2006, 08:13 PM
Sure she applied her negotiating skills. She immediately hit a brick wall and had nowhere to go. Her prediction for this scenario was that these guys are Ancients. And by their own experience with Ancients, she thought that they'd be willing to help with the Wraith. There was one variable that Weir couldn't have possibly known, and that is that the Asurans are machines and don't give a flying frak what happens to anyone else. How is she supposed to prepare for that? One gains negotiating experience with other cultures by first having to deal with it. This was a first, hence now they'll know in the future.

See the thing about negotiation is that you have to know that you will face these walls often and you need to have a set of tools that you can use to break them down. First their first meeting should be about introducing themselves and learning about them while sharing where they came from. She made quick assumptions about them and as a diplomat she should know that not everything is always what it seems and she should have enough experience to gain information be careful probing and through interaction with people within that culture.

She should not just start negotiations without understanding the culture and society of those she is negotiating with especially since she is negotiating from a position of weakness. She would need much more information about them, not the technological background but more about the culture itself. Then that information would need to be analyzed before you even get started. She could of built a relationship with Niam You need to build turst and recognize that while both sides may be working for their own interest you need to build it slowly so that both can get to the point where they can negotiate because there is respect and an understanding of where the sides are starting from.

Brick walls can be overcome but that takes time. I think I would of approached Niam and focused on learning about the society they built. Not the technology of the direct history on how they came to be but on what they have accomplished. It shows you recognize them as a great civilization and what they have achieved. I think that any negotiation would take months to develop in order to develop trust and an understanding. It would require meeting several times just go gain a level of understanding and comfort level with the other party. They could of used Niam's willingness to work for them as a way to overcome the rest of the council's reluctance over time by developing turst but in this episode it was not possible because they were too direct and were not sensitive enough, nor did they take the time or respected them to make first contact successful. It was not about meeting a new culture and developing a relationship but about what Weir needed. She took a short range view that ultimately left her in an even worst position and I am sorry she as a character has no one to blame except herself. You would think that there would be protocols for developing relations with new societies and although Atlantis is at threat it is in no way in immediate danger at this point and as such although taking the time to develop a relationship with this group would take time it was better than what they did. I think that the team made a moral judgement about the Asurans after they found out about them not helping to eliminate the Wraith but you can't create a relationship if you judge a group without understanding them and these thoughts should never be discussed unless it is behind closed doors given that there were potential allies with ZPM's you have to put that up against working with a group you believe may not share your beliefs. There were so many things that should of been done and after seeing the city they should reacted differently but instead they showed desperation which weakened their position even more. Weir is really not a good diplomat and too bad because it was her team's fault and she should have to face consequences for her actions but insted no ever does.

She needed to take a long view and spend the time needed to make the relationship work, societies have long memories and I can understand why they didn't help defeat the wraith because why should they since the Ancients tried to commit genocide against intelligent beings. Why should they go out of their way to help their decendents. Understanding that the Asurans have deep seeded anger would help them change their approach. But that information could only be gained by first understanding the other side and in this case gaining Niam's trust.

stubadingdong
August 17th, 2006, 09:01 PM
See the thing about negotiation is that you have to know that you will face these walls often and you need to have a set of tools that you can use to break them down. First their first meeting should be about introducing themselves and learning about them while sharing where they came from. She made quick assumptions about them and as a diplomat she should know that not everything is always what it seems and she should have enough experience to gain information be careful probing and through interaction with people within that culture.

Well...ok. If the other party wants nothing to do with negotiations, then what? Oberoth made it pretty clear at the outset that he wasn't interested.


She should not just start negotiations without understanding the culture and society of those she is negotiating with especially since she is negotiating from a position of weakness. She would need much more information about them, not the technological background but more about the culture itself. Then that information would need to be analyzed before you even get started. She could of built a relationship with Niam You need to build turst and recognize that while both sides may be working for their own interest you need to build it slowly so that both can get to the point where they can negotiate because there is respect and an understanding of where the sides are starting from.

From my understanding, Weir & Co. thought these were Ancients. And from what they understood about Ancients, they thought the Asurans would be willing to help. Not to mention the whole 42 minutes to cram a lot of crap into an episode. There's no time to build a relationship slowly and get to know them.


Brick walls can be overcome but that takes time. I think I would of approached Niam and focused on learning about the society they built. Not the technology of the direct history on how they came to be but on what they have accomplished. It shows you recognize them as a great civilization and what they have achieved. I think that any negotiation would take months to develop in order to develop trust and an understanding. It would require meeting several times just go gain a level of understanding and comfort level with the other party. They could of used Niam's willingness to work for them as a way to overcome the rest of the council's reluctance over time by developing turst but in this episode it was not possible because they were too direct and were not sensitive enough, nor did they take the time or respected them to make first contact successful. It was not about meeting a new culture and developing a relationship but about what Weir needed. She took a short range view that ultimately left her in an even worst position and I am sorry she as a character has no one to blame except herself. You would think that there would be protocols for developing relations with new societies and although Atlantis is at threat it is in no way in immediate danger at this point and as such although taking the time to develop a relationship with this group would take time it was better than what they did. I think that the team made a moral judgement about the Asurans after they found out about them not helping to eliminate the Wraith but you can't create a relationship if you judge a group without understanding them and these thoughts should never be discussed unless it is behind closed doors given that there were potential allies with ZPM's you have to put that up against working with a group you believe may not share your beliefs. There were so many things that should of been done and after seeing the city they should reacted differently but instead they showed desperation which weakened their position even more. Weir is really not a good diplomat and too bad because it was her team's fault and she should have to face consequences for her actions but insted no ever does.

All I can really say to that is...when did they have the time to allow for all that understanding to occur?


She needed to take a long view and spend the time needed to make the relationship work, societies have long memories and I can understand why they didn't help defeat the wraith because why should they since the Ancients tried to commit genocide against intelligent beings. Why should they go out of their way to help their decendents. Understanding that the Asurans have deep seeded anger would help them change their approach. But that information could only be gained by first understanding the other side and in this case gaining Niam's trust.

They found it out pretty quickly. But again, I'm not sure how you expect them to gain all this knowledge and understanding in the time constraints of a one-hour television show - which cuts down to about 42 minutes, as previously stated. In normal, day-to-day Real Life I agree with your post 100%. But there's that whole suspension of disbelief thing hanging over my head with a tv show. I don't expect to sit through boring negotiations and trust-building and things real diplomats do. I don't care, quite frankly. I want to watch these characters stumble through a completely different set of "ordinary" and see how they fare.

rhade
August 17th, 2006, 09:32 PM
I know it is a tv show and a lot of this would be hard but I don't think it would be impossible to do. The writers would need to take a longer view in their approach to telling a story. What I discussed about diplomacy is more a realisitic approach that would be hard to do on TV but I think that some of those elements could be inporporated if only to create the illusion of depth. I mean if the writers have been thinking about these Asuran's since hot zone why didn't they introduce them a year ago and build the relationship then. They could of developed a working relationship and developed their society better. It would make turning into a villian that much more impactful if they had once been close to a deal or have once had good relations instead of what they did in this episode which was to basically make them the bad guy from the word go.

My view is that from the beginning their diplomatic effortss have been very haphazard with no real focus when meeting new people. while that is needed there should also be some structure in how they approach new societies to ensure that situations like in episode 5 don't happen.

stubadingdong I said that they need to develop understanding and that it would realistically take time. It couldn't be done on their first meeting just like how negotiations should not take place after you just meet the people for Weir especially since after the moment they got there and saw the city she should have known she was in a position of weakness and had nothing to leverage. I guess what I meant to say in a earlier post was that they would need regular visits and communication before negotiation could be attempted so they could get a better understanding of the culture of the Assurans.

stubadingdong
August 17th, 2006, 09:43 PM
I understand that and completely respect your view. I guess all I'm saying is that in order for Stargate Atlantis to be an action/adventure show, they're not going to be doing much negotiating or diplomacy. Because the Wraith were awakened all at once, there leaves little time to build relationships. They've got to hurry up and find a way to beat the Wraith. They're under some serious pressure and stress in an unfamiliar place.

It would be a totally different show if there wasn't the imminent threat of death.

doylefan22
August 18th, 2006, 03:03 AM
I understand that and completely respect your view. I guess all I'm saying is that in order for Stargate Atlantis to be an action/adventure show, they're not going to be doing much negotiating or diplomacy. Because the Wraith were awakened all at once, there leaves little time to build relationships. They've got to hurry up and find a way to beat the Wraith. They're under some serious pressure and stress in an unfamiliar place.

It would be a totally different show if there wasn't the imminent threat of death.

Yeah, that's pretty much what I think about it. Yes, in real life the negotiations would last a lot longer but that would bog down the show too much. I'm fine with what they show and how they portray it.

Shep'sSocks
August 18th, 2006, 03:13 AM
Although, an episode based around paperwork would provide some great character opportunities.

Willow'sCat
August 18th, 2006, 03:40 AM
It would be a totally different show if there wasn't the imminent threat of death.I think that may just be the point for some people. ;)

Ennoia
August 18th, 2006, 09:45 AM
superb episode, my favorite of SG atlantis so far. It explains so much... Can't wait for the follow up!!! :)

rhade
August 18th, 2006, 03:03 PM
I love the action and adventure but I guess I wish the writers had more time to think things through and were more consistent with the characters. With Weir if she is a great diplomat then regardless of what should be done in real life some of that should translate on screen but in this episode due to the plot it doesn't and instead some of the character interactions with the new characters don't reflect what we know about the characters especially Weir. So that highlights the poor choices even more making them more visible to fans of the show and especially fans of the characters. Usually the writers do really well but it seems that at critical moments the characters are sometimes lost to the plot points and act out of character because of the direction of the episode not the direction of the chracters. Basically the characters serve the plot not the plot serving the characters. It doesn't often all the time but when it does it is easy to spot.

randy
August 19th, 2006, 09:10 PM
And that's not plot devicey how?

Rodney changed Fifth's base code- he took out the agression, made him so he's "not like the others" and conveniently left him immune to the freeze command, but he's still succeptible to being rewritten by other replicators? What happened to the "we can't change our own base code" bit? If his base code was changed by outside sources, it shouldn't have been possible for him to be rebooted. And if he WAS rebooted, wouldn't he still be Fifth-like with Fifth's... calmer tendencies? Or was he reset to a much earlier version of himself? Or was his personality ALSO wiped out? And how come it took so long for the reboot to take place? If the reps can communicate instantaneously across vast distances, shouldn't they have known something was wrong a lot faster?

Prior to the incident, Niam, one of the few Asurans, who believed ascension to be the pinnacle point in their evolutionary path; stated that, much has been done to suppress their violent impulses, which were embedded by the Ancients long ago. Plausibly, they built psychological barriers to the level where Asurans could control their emotional state to an extent - but never really subverting that part of their psyche. (Think of the Vulcans - [but] in this case, the Asurans' proclivity dominates their very nature, where the barriers created can no longer contain the archiac tendencies when confronted with an enemy). Subsequently, this maybe the time when the Asurans implored the Ancients to extract their aggressive protocols. Also, rebooting or reformating does not mean you change the base code: you simply revert back to the original programming. More over, thinking intuitively, the Asuran's homeworld may have only known of Niam's betrayal after the city ship was destroyed, which they realized through subspace communication.

c_world01
September 2nd, 2006, 04:48 PM
What i did not understand is why Rodney was not able to overload just one ZPM. In some episodes before, the city nearly exploded with just one (remember the episode when the goau'ld come to atlantis), and now we can blow the asurans city only with 3 ZPM.

Does someone have an idea?

uknesvuinng
September 3rd, 2006, 09:39 AM
What i did not understand is why Rodney was not able to overload just one ZPM. In some episodes before, the city nearly exploded with just one (remember the episode when the goau'ld come to atlantis), and now we can blow the asurans city only with 3 ZPM.

Does someone have an idea?

http://img218.imageshack.us/img218/1338/sgdemotivatorrx8.th.jpg (http://img218.imageshack.us/my.php?image=sgdemotivatorrx8.jpg)