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GateWorld
July 14th, 2006, 01:51 PM
<DIV ALIGN="center"><TABLE WIDTH="450" BORDER="0" CELLSPACING="0" CELLPADDING="7"><TR><TD><DIV ALIGN="left"><FONT FACE="Verdana, Arial, san-serif" SIZE="2" COLOR="#000000"><A HREF="http://www.gateworld.net/atlantis/s3/302.shtml"><IMG SRC="http://www.gateworld.net/atlantis/graphics/302.jpg" WIDTH="160" HEIGHT="120" ALIGN="right" HSPACE="10" VSPACE="2" BORDER="0" STYLE="border: 1px black solid" ALT="Visit the Episode Guide"></A><FONT SIZE="1" COLOR="#888888">ATLANTIS SEASON THREE</FONT>
<FONT SIZE="4"><A HREF="http://www.gateworld.net/atlantis/s3/302.shtml" STYLE="text-decoration: none">MISBEGOTTEN</A></FONT>
<FONT SIZE="1">EPISODE NUMBER - 302</FONT>
<IMG SRC="/images/clear.gif" WIDTH="1" HEIGHT="10" ALT="">
The Atlantis team must decide the fate of a colony of Wraith they have turned into humans. Dr. Weir must defend her leadership when she is evaluated by the I.O.A.

<FONT SIZE="1" COLOR="#888888"><B><A HREF="http://www.gateworld.net/atlantis/s3/302.shtml">VISIT THE EPISODE GUIDE ></A></B>
SPOILERS! PHOTOS! AND MORE!</FONT></FONT></DIV></TD></TR></TABLE></DIV>

rarocks24
July 21st, 2006, 07:00 PM
All in all a great episode.

captainpash
July 21st, 2006, 07:02 PM
A good ep indeed.

Lil Naitch
July 21st, 2006, 07:03 PM
Say goodbye to ANOTHER ship...

siXbrownSnakes2
July 21st, 2006, 07:03 PM
I liked the ep. Carson shined, exceptional acting by everyone (which is unheard of for Atlantis so far) and a good story. Glad to see Woolsey finally out of the way, but that little arc did add some good character to Weir.

Michaels fate, as spoilers show, is undecided. Apparently the hive ship wasn't there when Daedalus got to the planet, so we don't know for sure if he was picked up. But if it does, it means the Wraith know about Atlantis. And that could be a problem.

Good episode. ***1/2 from me.

MarshAngel
July 21st, 2006, 07:03 PM
It's truly amazing how this mistake with Michael keeps coming back to bite them in the behind. And amazingly, still, no one questions it. amazing.
Weir doesn't even get called on it. They just dance around it. How disappointing. A truly missed opportunity for some tension and drama.

Despite those issues the episode was a good one. I'm just disappointed how they skimped on the ethics. I don't really need them to agree that it was wrong; it just would have been nice to see somone have some real doubts. Instead they simply confirmed that they're ok with their choices...no drama there.

npattis
July 21st, 2006, 07:05 PM
I thought it was a good episode, overall, season 3 is to a better start than last. Though, is it just me, or am I pissed off what they keep doing to Michael?

kharn the betrayer
July 21st, 2006, 07:06 PM
Michael and Carson wher ethe stars of this episode as far as im conserned

and Poor Michael likes to get screwed over alot doesnt he...


good episode which I enjoyed more than SG1 again this week



though im getting sick of them blow up every new ship we get...

Major Tyler
July 21st, 2006, 07:06 PM
I don't like how cool everyone is with Woolsey lying to the IOA.

Merlin7
July 21st, 2006, 07:06 PM
Wow..that was a whole lot of NOTHING! Blech. I now get what the trick is TPTB are going to use in season 3. Setting up something that looks really promising and exciting, giving us the TEASE of it only to deliver the FADE OUT. Hey viewers, you don't need to SEE the action. YOU know what happened. Right? We'll just save time and money by not actually showing you anything cool and exciting. Just fill it in for yourself.
Okay then. Wow. So not impressed.

What did any body really do? ALMOST be bad? Sheppard ALMOST got to do soldier stuff. Teyla ALMOST got to be impressive with her flying the ship. Ronon ALMOST got to be his bad self. Did I even once not know exactly what was going to happen before it did? Nope. Knew it like I had the script.

And what a surprise. Beckett's barely conscious one minute and perfectly fine the next. Woolsey thinks ELizabeth should stay in charge. WOW! Didn't see THAT Coming. ::ducks anvils::

And the previews for next week? Meh. Might be better simply cause it'll be intentionally stupid.

So much for thinking this year might be a gooder. ::Heavy sigh::

The only good points for me. Light on Rodney and he didn't tick me off this ep. And Sheppard looked great and got to come close to being in charge of stuff. Close to being the HEAD MILITARY GUY.

rarocks24
July 21st, 2006, 07:06 PM
It's truly amazing how this mistake with Michael keeps coming back to bite them in the behind. And amazingly, still, no one questions it. amazing.
Weir doesn't even get called on it. They just dance around it. How disappointing. A truly missed opportunity for some tension and drama.

Under the circumstances with the Daedalus crew, it's not like they had a choice. That was rathy risky, depositing them on a planet, at least until a permanent solution could be found.

smushybird
July 21st, 2006, 07:07 PM
Well, at least Rodney tried to maintain some empathy and humanity. None of the others are even trying any more.

And how ironic is that, that Rodney's the only one who protested the slaughter.

Beckett only managed to at the very last second. But then I don't even find it believable that Beckett would ever have agreed to do any of this experimentation.

Woolsey's snap decision at the end wasn't particularly convincing either.
It felt like the whole business with Liz/Woolsey was set up for one reason: so the writers could do a flirt scene between Liz and Sheppard. That line about defending her honor actually made me cringe.

Rodney was by far the most palatable and likeable character in this episode.
I didn't even feel sorry for Beckett. He brought that on himself.

npattis
July 21st, 2006, 07:07 PM
Though I am confused, wasn't the hyperdrive on the Hive severly damaged in the premiere?

Jodi518
July 21st, 2006, 07:07 PM
Loved the episode, I just love that carson's fear of keep getting in the chair!!!

NowIWillDestroyAbydos
July 21st, 2006, 07:07 PM
Cool ep, good to see "Dick" Woolsey in the episode. Next weeks ep looks, uh, so-so. Good to see the Jumper again (first appearance this season, amazing eh)

Kanten
July 21st, 2006, 07:11 PM
Jeez, will someone get on the phone with these guys and tell them to stop losing ships? In the words of Jack O'Neill "Ok, next mothership we keep!"

Dromag67
July 21st, 2006, 07:12 PM
Wonder what Michael got out of Beckett, they never really clarified that.


Good episode though, and no one can complain about them getting beamed out at the last minute. ;)

Trialia
July 21st, 2006, 07:12 PM
It's truly amazing how this mistake with Michael keeps coming back to bite them in the behind. And amazingly, still, no one questions it. amazing.
Weir doesn't even get called on it. They just dance around it. How disappointing. A truly missed opportunity for some tension and drama.
Weir got called on that mistake last week, in case you missed it.

ETA: I haven't seen the ep...yet... in case anyone's wondering. *waits impatiently*

ussrelativity
July 21st, 2006, 07:13 PM
What situation had Beckett get in the chair?

:beckett: : Why me?

markaudette
July 21st, 2006, 07:13 PM
I think Misbegotten was an exceptionally fine episode. Strong writing. Strong scripting. And strong acting.

I really felt sorry for Micheal for what the team did to him (again.) At one time, the Atlantis team might have had him as an ally (maybe not...). But after the events of Misbegotten, Micheal will never be an ally ever again. Assuming Micheal and some other Wraith survived the bombardment from the caputured Hive ship, Micheal will forever be cemeted as Atlantis' nemesis. Factor in the fact Micheal now has the team's nuclear bomb, Micheal has now became the team's greatest singular threat.

I actually feel bad for Micheal.

It is nice to see that there are shades of grey in that whole area of fighting the Wraith. The team will have to deal with the choices they have made for a long time.


I give Misbegotten a 10. Perfect.

coolove
July 21st, 2006, 07:13 PM
Tsk. Tsk. There are sooo many things wrong with this episode. I am very disappointed in Sheppard and his gungho attitude about killing the "people" as he puts it. As an anthropology student, I find this whole arc completely disturbing. Michael gets screwed over every time. I hope Karma really kicks the Atlantis team where it hurts. They handled the whole Michael situation very poorly.

Jimbo-DR
July 21st, 2006, 07:20 PM
I'm amused to see all the people protesting the "slaughter" as some call it. Thats just another example of you not being there, and not understanding the gravity of the situation. You second guessing them attempting to kill all the Wraith on that planet is no different than the IOA second guessing Weir.

rarocks24
July 21st, 2006, 07:22 PM
Perhaps they should have given Michael what he wanted, yes. On the other hand, I think that was the intentions all along. Besides, if things went to ****, Michael would be remembered as the traitor, and revealed to the other hive queen.

I'm disturbed though that Andee Frizzell was credited for this episode despite the fact she didn't even appear in it.

Jimbo-DR
July 21st, 2006, 07:25 PM
Did anyone else catch the line about them being ferryed back and forth by the Asgard?

Isn't is weird that the Asgard can spare a ship to carry them back and forth, but thats all the help we get? And of course Thor is still just MIA.

Pharaoh Atem
July 21st, 2006, 07:26 PM
i hope Michaels alive

npattis
July 21st, 2006, 07:27 PM
Did anyone else catch the line about them being ferryed back and forth by the Asgard?

Isn't is weird that the Asgard can spare a ship to carry them back and forth, but thats all the help we get? And of course Thor is still just MIA.


Yeah, that irritated me a bit too.


"The Ori! Single greatest threat the MW as ever seen and Asgard only have one SCIENCE vessel to fight them."

"Oh yeah, spare ship to transport you two to Atlantis."

IWantToBelieve
July 21st, 2006, 07:28 PM
I absolutely loved it. From the fact that they showed our characters *showing* emotion and a connection to one another, to the shocking choices, to the constant surprising twists.

Why did they do that to Michael a second time, though? I'm curious to the reasoning there. I guess because he knew about them and that was a risk. They couldn't let him leave, couldn't keep him a prisoner indefinitely, so, change him.

Yes, the ethics of what they are doing (having to do) is dark, but it is about 'them or us'. I don't have a hard time seeing them taking this line. There isn't any possibility of a peaceful solution. There isn't any co-existing with the wraith.

And those wraith made into temporary humans are still wraith.

npattis
July 21st, 2006, 07:28 PM
i hope Michaels alive

Indeed, Atlantis has actually pissed me off by what they have done to him.

markaudette
July 21st, 2006, 07:30 PM
I am quite pleased that the Atlantis team didn't make a decision that saved the day. Leading the way for the team to head back home triumphant, victorious and justified. Where a grand feast would await them as they sing boastful songs of their joyus and glorious victory in battle.

Wait, this isn't Star Trek.

Still, it is glad to see the the team making dark choices. Making the only choice they could make under the circumstances. Choices that will have dark consequences in time. I love the fact that the team played the cards that were dealt to them. Except the hand that was dealt when the team decided to revert Micheal back to human. This is the turning point in Micheal's charater. And it's where the Atalntis team officially went wrong. Their paranoia and mistrust may have made an enemy out of Micheal. For as much as anyone knew, Micheal may have actually made himself out to be a close ally. But the team's choice changed this forever. For worse.

It's where the team could have made a better decision. But they didn't. In my opinion, it was the wrong choice. And that's intrigueing to witness. The wrong decision was made and now the team may have to deal with the consequences of that decision forever. Micheal couldn't live in both worlds. Half Wraith, but once human. He was ostricized by the other Wraith. And now, Micheal has the impetus to fully reclaim his rightful place within the hive - against the Atlantis team.

It's nice to see the team make a wrong decision that will have lasting consequences.

And Woosley's presence was incredible as well. It is refreshing to see there's always a third side to a two-sided coin.

Merlin7
July 21st, 2006, 07:30 PM
Tsk. Tsk. There are sooo many things wrong with this episode. I am very disappointed in Sheppard and his gungho attitude about killing the "people" as he puts it. As an anthropology student, I find this whole arc completely disturbing. Michael gets screwed over every time. I hope Karma really kicks the Atlantis team where it hurts. They handled the whole Michael situation very poorly.


I have to say, I'd do the same thing cause those *people* intended to head straight for EARTH and wipe us out. SO, a few hundred beings against billions. Hmmm. Easy choice for me. I didn't see it being all that easy for Shep though. But they all knew it had to be done.

Scyld
July 21st, 2006, 07:30 PM
[Charlton Heston]You Maniacs! You blew it up! Ah, #### you! God #### you all to hell![/Charlton Heston]

There goes another cool new ship, the episode after we get it.


I suppose it was inevitable, however. :(

Merlin7
July 21st, 2006, 07:31 PM
I absolutely loved it. From the fact that they showed our characters *showing* emotion and a connection to one another, to the shocking choices, to the constant surprising twists.

Why did they do that to Michael a second time, though? I'm curious to the reasoning there. I guess because he knew about them and that was a risk. They couldn't let him leave, couldn't keep him a prisoner indefinitely, so, change him.

Yes, the ethics of what they are doing (having to do) is dark, but it is about 'them or us'. I don't have a hard time seeing them taking this line. There isn't any possibility of a peaceful solution. There isn't any co-existing with the wraith.

And those wraith made into temporary humans are still wraith.

Heh. Don't read the email I sent you. Cause you apparently so the really exciting ep and I got the crap one. :D

ShadowMaat
July 21st, 2006, 07:35 PM
First, WAAAHHHH! No Lorne! :( Damn IMDB for spitting out false info YET AGAIN! :mad:

As for the rest of the ep... This highlights a lot of what's wrong with the show for me. The staggering arrogance (and stupidity) of the Atlantis team to try and pull off the same trick TWICE is absolutely mind-blowing. Trying to convince an ALIEN SPECIES that it's really human... there are no words for the depths of brainlessness displayed. Ye gods, did someone take an ice cream scoop to their skulls or what? No wonder the converted Wraith rebelled!

Shep acted like an utter jackass to the Converted. Sure, he's had bad dealings with the wraith and he's undoubtedly biased, but I should think it'd be in Atlantis's best interests to do everything they can to get the Converteds settled. Treating them like a nuisance and brushing off their concerns is not a way to build trust.

And what the fracking hell was the deal with drugging Michael AGAIN? What, they didn't learn their lesson the last time? :rolleyes: Stupid, stupid, STOOPID. "Easiest way to get rid of him" sure, but easy doesn't always mean best and it certainly doesn't mean effective. He'd been on the drug before and started to remember anyway. Whatever "improvements" Carson might have made to the formula, it was still the same drug and if Michael has started building an immunity... well, I guess we all saw what happened. *sigh* STOOPID.

I have rarely hated the Atlantis crew more than I hated them in this ep. The sheer pretension of the entire groupmind makes Rodney look like Caspar Milquetoast. And so much for the forlorn hope that they might all have regrown a few brain cells between seasons. If anything, they lost whatever dying cells they may have had. STOOPID!!!! It would have been fitting if they HAD all died on the Wraith hiveship. The show's IQ would have skyrocketed.

And Woolsey... Who the hell WAS that man and what did he do with the REAL Woolsey? When did Mr. Weasel suddenly become a GOOD guy? Actually, that's a real question 'cos I stopped watching SG-1, so if he really IS good, I wouldn't know it. Last time I saw him he was still a bookish little jackhole. Either way it came off as awfully convenient and I don't particularly like this fawming, simpering little twit we've got now. I'd rather see Weir's command in jeopardy. I want to see a power struggle. I want some by-gods tension and a chance that things won't come up roses all the time for Dr. Perfect.

You know what else bugs me? Some of those poor, misguided Converteds actually believed the Atlantis team was there to help. That "I don't understand..." scene was almost heartbreaking. Almost. But of course, we can't dwell on that when there's much more exciting things to be seen with Our Intrepid Heroes, scrambling to save the universe from the Wraith scourge and cover their asses once again after being so overwhelmingly STOOPID. AGAIN!! *headdesk*

The ep wasn't a TOTAL loss, though.

Kleinman once again got a chance to be on his feet and generally looking adorable. ;)

TPTB finally remembered who Carson was and I think Paul did an absolutely brilliant job with what he was given. I have issues with Carson going along with the plans at all, but barring that his emotional reactions were spot on.

Caldwell continues to show a surprising (to me) depth of character. Kudos to Mitch on a job well done. I really hope his character doesn't get killed off. He's finally starting to get interesting. Unfortunately, that's often a dangerous (and fatal) sign...

As a whole, however, I really wish I hadn't watched this self-important steaming pile to stupid. The lack of Kavan's name in the opening credits should have served as warning to turn the TV off (or switch to Psych- although I still have to catch up on the first two eps). Unfortunately, I just figured I'd missed seeing his name. *sigh*

I will DEFINITELY be skipping next week's ep. I won't go within fifty channels of THAT.

IWantToBelieve
July 21st, 2006, 07:36 PM
I am quite pleased that the Atlantis team didn't make a decision that saved the day. Leading the way for the team to head back home triumphant, victorious and justified. Where a grand feast would await them as they sing boastful songs of their joyus and glorious victory in battle.

Wait, this isn't Star Trek.

Still, it is glad to see the the team making dark choices. Making the only choice they could make under the circumstances. Choices that will have dark consequences in time. I love the fact that the team played the cards that were dealt to them. Except the hand that was dealt when the team decided to revert Micheal back to human. This is the turning point in Micheal's charater. And it's where the Atalntis team officially went wrong. Their paranoia and mistrust may have made an enemy out of Micheal. For as much as anyone knew, Micheal may have actually made himself out to be a close ally. But the team's choice changed this forever. For worse.

It's where the team could have made a better decision. But they didn't. In my opinion, it was the wrong choice. And that's intrigueing to witness. The wrong decision was made and now the team may have to deal with the consequences of that decision forever. Micheal couldn't live in both worlds. Half Wraith, but once human. He was ostricized by the other Wraith. And now, Micheal has the impetus to fully reclaim his rightful place within the hive - against the Atlantis team.

It's nice to see the team make a wrong decision that will have lasting consequences.

And Woosley's presence was incredible as well. It is refreshing to see there's always a third side to a two-sided coin.

So what would you have suggested they do to Michael? Set him free, knowing that they exist. So when he got into trouble, he could hook up with another Hive and bribe them to do what he needed in return he'd give them Atlantis, and Earth? Or, should they have kept him locked up?

And what about feeding...cause as a wraith, he would've needed a human to eat.

Of the two options, the one that made the most sense was take a chance on giving Michael an opportunity to live, hoping the retrovirus would be more effective this time. Unfortunately, it wasn't.

Should it have been created in the first place? Probably not, and that is where the real wrong decision lay. But it would be a boring show if everything they did was right and perfect and clean.

npattis
July 21st, 2006, 07:38 PM
I definately liked the Caldwell/Woosey scene.

IWantToBelieve
July 21st, 2006, 07:38 PM
Heh. Don't read the email I sent you. Cause you apparently so the really exciting ep and I got the crap one. :D


No, we just have different tastes lately. I was thrilled to get the character moments and after last week, didn't mind the action taking place off screen. It delivered for me, totally.

Osiris-RA
July 21st, 2006, 07:40 PM
Atlantis. Good episode. I love Micheal even more this time around. If possible, I'm liking the show more for the sheer reason that I'm feeling more and more sorry for the Wraith because the humans are so dang stupid and deserve everything they get. Like the Battlestar Galactica people, actually.

First of all, it was wrong of them in the first place to assume that they could mess around with DNA and make their enemies human, and second, it was incredibly moronic of them to de-wraith-ify the Wraiths, then put them in a prison camp and treat them like they're still Wraith. Micheal had it right. He wasn't accepted by the Wraith and he wasn't accepted by the humans. Sheppard and the rest of the military's treatment of the Wraith was so obviously hostile, that the next logical step for the Wraiths to take was figure out why they're missing time. If the humans had at least pretended to like them and treated them like an unfortunate quarantine situation, maybe they wouldn't have toddled off into the woods and stopped taking their human pills! I mean, what's wrong with these humans? They want the Wraith to stop attacking them - ok. They want peace, alrighty. So they change them into humans against their will, then expect to go on treating them like crap and the Wraith aren't supposed to notice??

If the humans going to act like that, maybe they should have just killed them all and be down a couple dozen Wraiths. They're so obviously scornful of these Not!Humans that it doesn't seem like they should waste their time pretending to be all humane towards them.

There's gotta be a better way to win a fight against the Wraith without becoming a hypocrite and a moron along the way. But hey, I like the story so far. While I hope that they do someone find a way to cream the Wraith...one just can't help rooting for the Wraith when the humans do something dumb like what they did.

LONG LIVE MICHEAL!!!

LoneStar1836
July 21st, 2006, 07:45 PM
Why would they just dump Michael on a planet with all these other human Wraith? You’d thing they would have more of a connection to Michael and thus they would keep him on Atlantis and try to integrate him again. I mean they are getting a second chance here to learn from past mistakes but they’d just rather abandon him on some planet and forget about him. Course obviously they didn't learn from past mistakes by making the choice to convert him again....

I kind of wanted Michael the Wraith to be an ally rather than an enemy and was hoping that they could keep him around but oh well…. I’m sure he survived and took the nice little nuclear bomb with him so we’ll be seeing both of them again.

And stupid Sheppard. He should have taken more time to answer that guy’s questions. By just brushing him off like that it just created more suspicion….

Whatever. The episode was ok. Nothing impressive.

ladysarah
July 21st, 2006, 07:47 PM
Do the writers want us to hate the characters in this show?

Because, I don't get it.

npattis
July 21st, 2006, 07:48 PM
Do the writers want us to hate the characters in this show?

Because, I don't get it.

I keep asking that myself.

markaudette
July 21st, 2006, 07:50 PM
Like I siad above, it's the shades of grey within the decision-making process that I really love. If I were put in that situation, I would have a msall crisis on my hands. I wouldn't know what to do.

1. Let sleeping dogs lie. Micheal may have aligned himself with Atlantis, in as far as an ex-Wraith could.

2. Give Micheal the retrovirus again and turn him back into a man. And eliminate him as a threat forever. Thinking of it now, I would have most likely made this choice.

But those shades of grey. That third side to a two-sided coin - kill Micheal. Just murder him. Shepard seemd like he wouldn't be very hesitant to make that decision. And Ronan would have killed Micheal within the blink of an eye.

But Weir made the right decision. And it had unfortunate consequences.

It reminds me of one of the finest episodes of Deep Space Nine. An episode called "In the Pale Moonlight" where Sisko fabricates a couple of facts to bring the Romulans into the Dominion war. A dark decision that may have terrible consequences. Again, the dark grey area of war. Whether it's a war with the Dominion or the Wraith. Weir made a similar decision to Sisko's delimma. She had to do something. And it was most likely her ownly choice. A choice that will have unfortunate consequences down the road. In my mind - phenomenally wonderful storytelling.

:)

starfox
July 21st, 2006, 07:51 PM
How did I not notice the Life cereal joke from last week's ep until this week's teaser?

I was a little disappointed by the Weir-IOA angle. I can understand why Woolsey made the decision he did; what I didn't like was Elizabeth's over solicitous-ness towards him. She backed down very quickly, and she wasn't cooperating with Woolsey in a "I'm doing the best I can to keep my job" kind of way, she was doing it in a "I've already lost and am going to go along meekly" kind of way. And that's not the kind of behaviour I expect from these characters and this show.

Weir's behaviour at the beginning of the meeting with Sheppard's team was the moment when we really knew that she thought she was out. It was a kind of a "I'm out of here, I love you guys" moment. There was a lovely little Rodney character moment in there, though, with the "What, she's hungry, too?" That and the little smile afterwards were an effective tension diffuser, tactfully steering attention away from emotions by using one of his quirks, but not in an obnoxious way. The fact that Rodney can do it, and consciously do it, show a bit of character growth. Also, it's just a fun Rodney/Elizabeth friendship moment.

Woolsey is such a tool. But he's useful, and it's so much fun to dislike him, until he comes out in your corner in the end.

Sheppard wanting to defend Elizabeth's honor, also a good friendship moment. I refuse to view it in a shippy light, because I know my friends would feel inclined towards violence as well, were someone to question me as Woolsey questions Elizabeth. Besides, it was a cute, fun moment. That's what I like about the friendship between John and Elizabeth; it has a fun, genuine dynamic that makes me believe that these two people have a friendship (I'm still not a John/Elizabeth shipper and probably never will be; I just think they're a lot of fun as friends).

I must be a really horrible person. I must have no soul. Because seeing the Wraith-turned-humans, my first instinct was to say "Why the hell didn't you throw them out the air lock?" Not exactly a humane way to kill, but honestly, what else can you do with these things? If you have half an ounce of common sense, you know you can't rehabilitate them, why not just toss 'em and go? But that would have been gruesome and inhumane and would have given us no A-plot for this episode.

Michael's not dead. He's chilling with Ford out in the void between scripts, waiting until he and the plot devices he brings with are needed.

Michael and Ford. Now there's an interesting parallel. Wraith moving towards human and human moving towards Wraith; neither more than a step away from his original form, and neither able to be trusted by the people of the Atlantis expedition. Putting them in a room together would be such a fun psychological study. At least, until they tried to kill each other.

Teyla flew a ship! Yeah, I don't know why I'm so happy about that, except that it just shows her to be even more of an adaptable, competent team member, and competence is the essence of cool.

Rodney deferred to her expertise! He said, "Well I have no clue. Teyla, what do you think?" Rodney admitting he has no clue and then immediately asking someone else's opinion? It shows that he has to a certain extent begun to rely on Teyla's knowledge and skills, which says something about the team development, especially as we almost never see these two interact onscreen. Plus, the Rodney/Teyla shipper within me just loves it.

"Colonel, where the hell are you?"
Daedalus to the rescue. Yes, that gag's getting old, but I am beginning to genuinely like Caldwell. Especially his metaphorical flipping of the bird at Woolsey earlier in the ep.

Which reminds me; was I the only one a little startled by the passage of time? I mean, I know Elizabeth said that the Asgard ship would shave some time off the journey, but my initial reaction on seeing the Caldwell-Woolsey scene was "Wait, when did the Daedalus get in, and who did the redecorating?" It was a bit difficult to reconcile the fact that I saw Woolsey on Earth in his last scene, and there was no visual to indicate that he'd traveled to Pegasus. Maybe that's just me, though.

Carson. Carson, Carson, Carson. So true to his doctorly nature, and yet willing to overcome his fear of the chair and defend Atlantis. I also adored the scene where Michael was talking about his capacity for open-ness and empathy, and Carson's reaction was basically, 'yeah, kinda diminishing there.' That definitely goes in my file of Carson character development moments. So far he's been betrayed by enzymed-Ford, and had his treatments rejected by Michael twice, not to mention twenty to thirty of the other Wraith on the planet. This is definitely going to strip away a bit of his idealism, which in some respects is a good thing. After all, it's like Michael said: They all saw how Michael felt after the first treatments, what did they think was going to happen?


So basically, not my favorite episode plot-wise, but I'm still high enough on the rush of a new season to forgive that. Michael being the one to plan the rebellion did surprise me, though in hindsight, it shouldn't have. There's a good job of character development here and it's not a bad episode, but once my new-season-high wears off, I'm expecting much better plots.

Osiris-RA
July 21st, 2006, 07:53 PM
Do the writers want us to hate the characters in this show?

Because, I don't get it.
Obviously. With Lt. Col Stupid leading the party. :P

FoolishPleasure
July 21st, 2006, 07:54 PM
At first I thought this was a good episode, but on closer inspection, lots of plot holes.

The real good stuff: Beckett.

Everything else:

Its always good to see Woolsey and he was very good in this episode, except for that last scene where the writers hit the "reset" button and Woolsey swept everything under the rug and everything was hunky dory. Come on - they played games with living creatures - created humans and then just wanted to dump them in some backwater where they may or may not survive and then wash their hands of the whole affair. Can't believe I was actually rooting for the Wraith to blow our team away.

Poor Michael. They should have tried to work with him in the beginning. Atlantis doesn't want him, the Wraith don't want him, we "made" him and should have tried to come up with a place to live or help him in some way - he DID save everyone's butts last week. Instead they just reinject him and stick him on a remote world with no escape and 200 other men (and no women). I'd be ticked off too. ;)

Sheppard. Sigh. Last week he is all goofy and flirty. This week he is snotty and mean. I really felt bad when Wraith Nathan tried to ask him questions. That snarky attitude is what started Nathan on the path of doubt. I guess I'm just tired of Sheppard these days as the writers just don't know how to write consistently for him.

Ooooh, Teyla has all the powers of a Wraith Queen flying a monsterous hive ship! Yeah. I believe that. Sorry writers, that was just a wee bit too much to stomach. I just find her way too much like Lyta in the old B5.

One last thing - Michael now has a nuke! When will he return? When will he use it? OMG! That is so cool! Um. . wait. . .BSG already did this scenario last season. Oh well, on to next week.

Mitchell82
July 21st, 2006, 07:55 PM
As a whole, however, I really wish I hadn't watched this self-important steaming pile to stupid. The lack of Kavan's name in the opening credits should have served as warning to turn the TV off (or switch to Psych- although I still have to catch up on the first two eps). Unfortunately, I just figured I'd missed seeing his name. *sigh*

I will DEFINITELY be skipping next week's ep. I won't go within fifty channels of THAT.
I'm sorry you didn't really enjoy this episode I found it really enjoyable and overall a very good episode. Hopefully you won't give up on the season. I'm sorry that you won't even give next weeks episode a try. I'm looking foward to it I think it will be really interesting. Hopefully you will enjoy more of season 3. Any way I thought it was a great episode and had no problem with Sheps plan to nuke the planet, he had no other option really. Overall grreat ep and looking forward to next week!

Persephone
July 21st, 2006, 07:58 PM
The thing that made me most happy about this episode was Carson's role. I thought making him lead cast in Season 2 was a great move on the part of the producers/ writers, particularly after Poisoning the Well, and then in Season Two there wasn't a single episode that really felt like Carson's. True, he was pretty crucial to Michael, but that episode really belonged to... well, Michael. LOL

Grr, speaking of Michael, I was pretty disappointed by the decision to humanize him again. I'm a sucker for a good redemption story, so I was hoping they could come to some kind of reconciliatory conclusion with the character, however I also acknowledge that what actually happened in the episode was much more credible and in character for all parties concerned. Still, he's a character that continues to fascinate, and I'm going to go out on a limb and predict he ain't dead. Hehehe...

The B-plot with Woolsey was a little uncreative, imho. It mostly felt like a rehash of the political blah blahs of last week, and really? Much as I admire Robert Picardo as an actor, can't he just go home now? He's been on both new episodes of both new seasons. On the other hand, the scene of John venting about him in Elizabeth's office went a long way to make up for it. *GRIN*

The episode contributed to the overall story arc and had some strong character moments, but it's not probably one I'll watch over and over again wtih any level of excitement. Two stars.

vaberella
July 21st, 2006, 08:00 PM
It's truly amazing how this mistake with Michael keeps coming back to bite them in the behind. And amazingly, still, no one questions it. amazing.
Weir doesn't even get called on it. They just dance around it. How disappointing. A truly missed opportunity for some tension and drama.

Despite those issues the episode was a good one. I'm just disappointed how they skimped on the ethics. I don't really need them to agree that it was wrong; it just would have been nice to see somone have some real doubts. Instead they simply confirmed that they're ok with their choices...no drama there.


Gotta agree with you on that. But it's beuracracy at it's best, and further more they have bigger fish to fry on earth to worry that much when the threat was at least contained for the time being. And as we know in future eps...these decisions probably come back to bite them on the ass in future.


Anyway...i think the ep was great. Teyla was fantastic...to bad she didn't have Michael properly disposed of, I felt she came and did her darndest. Plus, I enjoyed the way that they worked out how Teyla was taking lessons on controlling and flying the ship on the side while Weir was making her way back....so that was good--where it came across very realistic. Wicked also to fly the ship. Loving Teyla's smile when she they got the news J was alive.

John was fantastic as always, showed his friendship, his loyalty and a real leader durin the episode. He was in control and all around great. Finally saying..'This is a military situation, it's my call!!' ----words he should have used in S2 to Weir on many occasions. But glad to see him kind of feeling his way back and forgoing his uncertainty from he past. And his moment with Woolsey was classic. His scene with Weir was funny, great flirting from Weir...total side stepping of that and continued whinging by him. Good moment of friendship--classic.

As for Ronon...okay I found him a tad ridiculous...but whatever. He's Ronon and that's what Ronon does, maybe I'm just looking for a bit more, but still not getting that extra something--that I was given in eps like Trinity or Inferno and Allies.

As for McKay---very little of him really in this ep. No growth, just the same Mc saying the same things. I was hoping for more, since he's my main man. But that didn't detract from the greatness of this ep.

Weir---not really much around her in this ep. Besides her moment with Woolsey and minute moment with John in the office. So not much to say there.

Woolsey--I like the guy, although the ending was feeling flat, but I understood it. Politics doing it's thing.

Michael and the crew---alive and well and will be ver problematic for the Atlantis crew...Teyla should have taken matters into her own hands and killed him. Or had him killed..he's one of their biggest threats.

As for Carson---gotta save the best for last. He was fantastic, this was predominantly his ep ---again the scientist/doctor/and man waring with one another. He's fantastic and his character is definitely going to be tortured this seaons. He'll probably age significantly due to these problems.


Now all around great characterization, great team ep, good dialogue. Overall sollid with some fantastic twists. I think SGA...did a great job and I really like this step. The writers are definitely getting back on track and nothing was amiss. I preferred it to NML, actually.

Because they lost the hive ship though...they get a .5. These guys can't hold on to a darned ship...Jeez..they need to work on that.


9.5/10

starfox
July 21st, 2006, 08:07 PM
Moment I missed in my initial, way-too-long review: When the team is on the jumper getting ready to pick up Beckett; it's Rodney and Teyla who seem be concerned for the Wraith as humans, and Sheppard and Ronon who have gone into military "casualties of war" mode. It's an interesting ideological schism, and though it really only got half a second of reaction shots in this ep, I hope it comes back later in the season.


And, watching the teaser for this ep again and just seeing Michael in the background, flying the ship, it makes me want him back even more. I mean, come on; he's such a good character. Just, don't try to de-Wraith-ify him this time, 'kay?

ShadowMaat
July 21st, 2006, 08:07 PM
Any way I thought it was a great episode and had no problem with Sheps plan to nuke the planet, he had no other option really. Overall grreat ep and looking forward to next week!
Of course he didn't have any other plan! He (and the reast of them) were so monumentally incompetent that they allowed the situation to get to the point where they had no other choice but to nuke the camp!

As for giving up on this season, I think I'll decline to comment for now.

coolove
July 21st, 2006, 08:15 PM
First, WAAAHHHH! No Lorne! :( Damn IMDB for spitting out false info YET AGAIN! :mad:

As for the rest of the ep... This highlights a lot of what's wrong with the show for me. The staggering arrogance (and stupidity) of the Atlantis team to try and pull off the same trick TWICE is absolutely mind-blowing. Trying to convince an ALIEN SPECIES that it's really human... there are no words for the depths of brainlessness displayed. Ye gods, did someone take an ice cream scoop to their skulls or what? No wonder the converted Wraith rebelled!

Shep acted like an utter jackass to the Converted. Sure, he's had bad dealings with the wraith and he's undoubtedly biased, but I should think it'd be in Atlantis's best interests to do everything they can to get the Converteds settled. Treating them like a nuisance and brushing off their concerns is not a way to build trust.

I have rarely hated the Atlantis crew more than I hated them in this ep. The sheer pretension of the entire groupmind makes Rodney look like Caspar Milquetoast. And so much for the forlorn hope that they might all have regrown a few brain cells between seasons. If anything, they lost whatever dying cells they may have had. STOOPID!!!! It would have been fitting if they HAD all died on the Wraith hiveship. The show's IQ would have skyrocketed.



I think I love you. :) I have to agree with you on all points. Shep for the most part was acting very military-esque more then what we're used to seeing in this regard. I still find him arrogant beyond belief.

rarocks24
July 21st, 2006, 08:17 PM
Overall, I thought it was a good episode, but yeah, it bothered me the callousness to which Sheppard treated Merrick. If he had treated Merrick better, well, Merrick wouldn't have ended up on the rocks. Sheppard acted like an all around jerk, but at least we were spared from his obnoxious kirking. The episode was sort of rushed, I had expected better from TPTB, but then again, the SG1 episode had a rushed ending (though at least it showed others saving the day now), what happened to Michael was absurd, completely rediculous. If they were going to turn him, they should have kept him separated from the others, they didn't. They should have killed Michael anyhow.


Are you my executioner?!

This entire episode was depressing, extraordinarily so. Frankly, had they kept the ship near Atlantis we wouldn't have had this problem. :( How stupid of them to release them until a permanent solution was to be found.

Yes, it was a great episode so far as the darkness illustrated by both sides, but it was laced with completely stupid decisions (that weren't Weir's fault). It annoyed me that the IOA gave in so quickly to Weir, though No Man's Land had shown the true capabilities of the character. Sheppard was portrayed in a not so favorable light (genocide without a second thought). As for the Wraith that still thought there was a virus, Michael showed himself no morally superior than Beckett by offering to the coming hive ship a food source.

I guess Michael was right, sometimes the Lantians can act like Wraith. :(

There were some flaws, it was incredibly rushed, they could have written it so those that survived and remained human were beamed out by Daedalus, but that just didn't happen. I would have felt much better. But given the circumstances...

A good episode, worthy of at most an 8. It no where near holds up to No Man's Land, and both No Man's Land and Siege Parts 2 & 3 and some others are examples of what this show is truly capable of.

L.A. Doyle
July 21st, 2006, 08:20 PM
I liked this one-better than last week's IMHO. (((Carson))) Poor guy went through a lot in this one!

IWantToBelieve
July 21st, 2006, 08:32 PM
Sheppard wasn't being a jerk to Lathan or Nathan, whatever his name was. He was highly uncomfortable, with all of it. He isn't thrilled with what's happening but I don't get where people think they had a choice.

These were their choices:

1: Leave them in stasis, drain the Hive ship of power, and what...leave them in stasis in the ship in orbit around Atlantis. Ohhh-kay. That probably isn't a good idea.

2: Kill them. First. Without *trying* to save them.

3: Try to handle it. Try to set them free make a cover story, get them to try to adjust to being humans.


The retrovirus was a bad idea. But the choices they've made since then are damage control and they don't have a lot of choices. Michael couldn't go free, he knew too much. The human/wraith couldn't be left alive for the coming Hive ship to find, because then they'd know the truth about Atlantis.

The wraith aren't going to make peace with humans. You don't make peace with your chicken dinner. And the wraith can only sustain themselves on humans. If the only thing that keeps you alive is a certain type of food, no matter how much the food begs, you're still gonna eat it, because it's your life or theirs.

And we've seen nothing prior to Michael to suggest the wraith regard humans as anything more *than* food, so there isn't the option of 'let's work together to find a way to feed you that doesn't rely on us'. The two species are incompatible to sharing the same space.

And Sheppard is making the choices he has to now that events are in motion. He's not mean, nasty or a jerk. He doesn't like it, he's uncomfortable, he wishes it could be different.

FoolishPleasure
July 21st, 2006, 08:36 PM
And Sheppard is making the choices he has to now that events are in motion. He's not mean, nasty or a jerk. He doesn't like it, he's uncomfortable, he wishes it could be different.
What irritated me the most was that these "people" thought they had a horrible disease and the humans were there to help them. Sheppard's rude attitude and refusal to talk made that guy seem suspicious - something wasn't right. They all needed to be "playing their parts" for this charade to succeed but Shep dropped the ball, horribly.

I miss Lorne. :(

ShadowMaat
July 21st, 2006, 08:39 PM
He didn't read as uncomfortable to me, he read as dismissive and possibly even a little repulsed. Hence his hesitation at even calling them people.

ladysarah
July 21st, 2006, 08:40 PM
They all needed to be "playing their parts" for this charade to succeed but Shep dropped the ball, horribly.

I miss Lorne. :(

I could possibly see Rodney doing this, because Rodney just can't lie to save his life. But Sheppard, geez, the guy is essentially a walking enigma, you'd think he could pretend better then that.

IWantToBelieve
July 21st, 2006, 08:40 PM
I didn't see how he was rude at all. He explained that Doctor Beckett was treating him and that the details where up to Beckett, and that he didn't know anything else. Nothing struck me as rude. Uncomfortable, yes, because he couldn't really keep eye contact, but his tone of voice, posture etc never struck me as rude.

'this situation sucks all around' sure...but not rude.

MasySyma
July 21st, 2006, 08:43 PM
After last week's episode, I had hope for the season, but after tonight's episode, I am back to my lack of hope and borderline distrust of SGA's capabilities as a show.

What was the point of this episode?

Last week, we had a ship after making the other one blow up, and now, we have no ships. Therefore, SGA is even less capable of defending itself. Yes, we still have the Daedelus, but it leaves perodically, and it is only ready when its tempermental Asguard can be ignored.

Last week, we had a plot that made sense. This week, the characters seem to be sharing a brain, and it is with Weir at the SGC. I understand why they took the Wraith out of storage, but perhaps the characters might have considered treating Michael better. Maybe they could use him as an ambassador? Perhaps, Carson could modify the drug so Michael could eat rare steak instead of Carson? No, we just get another Ford-like loophole that the writers can return to if needed. If the show needs peril, someone survived, if it doesn't, the Michealized wraith stay dead.

Now, I did enjoy most of Weir's scenes, but Woolsey, a character I really have come to like, bothered me. The man is supposed to be annoying because he is very straightlaced. He sees things as either right or wrong and can't grasp the idea of shades of grey. Yet, he travels through a wormhole and something in the air compels him to begin lying like Vala, who happens to be much better at it. Yuck.

I also agree with the folks who found it rather odd that Rodney had the empathy button this week, and I still find myself liking him this season. Too bad, my character list is down to Weir, Rodney, and Carson at the moment.

I'm giving it a 7/10 to be generous and because the SG-1 episode made me mad, but this episode did not make me want to wish for next week.

GreyFox
July 21st, 2006, 09:01 PM
answered some lingering questions bout the asgard.


i give the ep a 6/10

too bad looked great. but not all bad

but whatever it's still very early. i have great hopes of the asurans and the ownage of the wraith

anyway it's still dvr worthy (ie it'll stay).

Galilahi
July 21st, 2006, 09:11 PM
ok, i can't decide if shep really is an unfeeling ass or if that's just the way he's coming off.

i like woolsey. he rides the line between total buercratic jerk and somewhat human. picardo rocks.

the writers have succeeded in their quest. they got people mad and talking about the ethics of the wraith/human thing. (personally i would have dumped them on the plant, then set off the nuke no questions. i wouldn't have put everything i cared about in danger a second time no matter how much beckett whined)

great moment between weir and the senior staff.

i really enjoyed it. can't wait for more!

Spooks99
July 21st, 2006, 09:26 PM
These were their choices:

1: Leave them in stasis, drain the Hive ship of power, and what...leave them in stasis in the ship in orbit around Atlantis. Ohhh-kay. That probably isn't a good idea.

2: Kill them. First. Without *trying* to save them.

3: Try to handle it. Try to set them free make a cover story, get them to try to adjust to being humans.


The retrovirus was a bad idea. But the choices they've made since then are damage control and they don't have a lot of choices. Michael couldn't go free, he knew too much. The human/wraith couldn't be left alive for the coming Hive ship to find, because then they'd know the truth about Atlantis.

The wraith aren't going to make peace with humans. You don't make peace with your chicken dinner. And the wraith can only sustain themselves on humans. If the only thing that keeps you alive is a certain type of food, no matter how much the food begs, you're still gonna eat it, because it's your life or theirs.

And Sheppard is making the choices he has to now that events are in motion. He's not mean, nasty or a jerk. He doesn't like it, he's uncomfortable, he wishes it could be different.

I mostly agree with I Want To Believe. I think for the most part, they didn't have ANY good options at all. I hate how they treated Michael and the humanized wraith, though. Michael did save their lives, and it seems like they should have tried to at least obtain his consent, or maybe just friggin' apologize for what they were about to do. But they really didn't have much of a choice. The best option probably would have been to just kill him, but that's modern society for you--killing a hundred faceless people from orbit is a lot easier than looking straight into your victim's eye and pulling the trigger. They just didn't have the heart (except for Ronon, of course). There was no other compromise they could ahve reached with Michael--even if they were somehow absolutely assured that he wouldn't reveal Atlantis' continued existence, ever, the fact remains that he's a wraith. He needs to feed on humans to survive. Letting him go would just mean more dead people down the line.

As for the other wraith, I think there was an alternative solution, presented by a fanfic I read recently. I don't remember the fic, but basically they used culling beams to collect all the wraith until they could figure out what to do with them. Saving them as data would probably take less power than keeping them in stasis, and with less pesky moral side-effects. All it would take to be rid of them is a press of a button--nice and distant, no faces or awkward conversations, just a deleted hard drive.

I think trying the same experiment with the wraith again without a permanent solution was a dumb idea, though, especially when they threw Michael in with the rest of them. Obviously a plot device so Michael can back as a wraith arch-nemesis for Atlantis. I think, given what they knew then (i.e., they didn't know that the wraith would eb able to communicate over such long distances) they should have just dumped them on the planet and left them there to change back and feed on each other. That also removes the pesky moral issues, since they wouldn't be killing any humans. Of course, now we know the wraith could have just called for help.

On the other hand, as some people have suggested, these decisions do make for a slightly darker show. Most of the time on SG-1 the SGC is a bastion of morality, courage, honor and the American Way. They always find a way out of having to make the really tough calls, and they always magically seem to know who to trust. The Atlantis people are making more mistakes in that regard, and consequently getting themselves into situations where they need to make those tougher calls...but then we have the benefit of knowing some things they don't, like who will never be killed off on this show, and that Atlantis and Earth not going to fall anytime soon, and when the "plot twists" are coming (i.e., if they're only 20 minutes into the episode, the "new ally" probably is too good to be true).

lirenel
July 21st, 2006, 09:27 PM
I have to say I did like this episode quite a bit, but I also know that I tend to watch episodes through rose-coloured glasses. My inner McWeir shipper squeed at the looks passed between said characters in the initial briefing, along with McKay's "What, she's hungry too?" tension diffuser comment. Rodney was great, especially with his reluctance to kill the Wraith/humans on the planent. It really says a lot when Rodney is the one with the moral conscience.

I liked Caldwell too, though i may be biased because I still see him as Skinner from X-FIles. Woolsey was an interesting character, I hadn't seen a lot of episodes with him before.

I don't like how the team (minus McKay and possibly Teyla) have lost their moral compass. They're supposed to be the good guys! Yes, I know it's more realistic that they make morally ambiguous mistakes, but I don't watch TV to see real life. I like it more when they're like McKay: harsh and snarky on the outside, but really a good person on the inside. I'm not seeing that with the rest of the team.

Still, overall I felt it was a great episode. Am withholding judgement on next weeks episode, though I feel I might like SG-1 better.

coolove
July 21st, 2006, 09:28 PM
I miss Lorne. :(

Lorne does make the world a better place. :)

DingoGirl
July 21st, 2006, 09:30 PM
Hi, um, this might have been answered, but what did Michael do to Carson? I'm sure he tortured him or something but what exactly did he do? I saw no marks on Carson, nor did he say anything. Think we'll find out later?


:sheppardanime23: :mckayanime08: :wraith32: :teyla25: :ronon: :beckettanime09:

(Sorry, had fun with the smilies)

civilbloodshed
July 21st, 2006, 09:36 PM
An open letter to John Sheppard.


Dear John;

I hate you and you suck. At the moment, I feel this encapsulates my feeling towards you quite nicely. You are wrong about the Wraith and you're going to mess up this whole expedition just like everyone said you would. You are too stupid and thick-headed to realize that the Wraith are not just night time monsters out suck our souls with their creepy mouth-hands. They are, in fact, a thinking, feeling, highly advanced race. They are a formidable opponent. Life or death, or not, if they weren't aliens from outer space you wouldn't be so stupid as to underestimate them, and you know it too. You feel guilty about what you did, and now you are so desperate to fix what you did that you'd kill them all rather than truly face the mistake you made. It's not about saving earth because we all know you sure as hell aren't a hero, what happened in Afghanistan be ******, you're just trying to cover your own ***. Beckett isn't the only Frankenstein, but at very least he had the decency to commit himself to the responsibility of his creations. You are so irresponsible and incompetent it would be better for the expedition to be recalled before more people died because of your "leadership skills". Seriously, you couldn't lead a troop of S.E.A.L.s out of a paper bag. If you had any sense whatsoever, you'd listen to every word that Caldwell says and follow every order Elizabeth gives you because if you keep doing what you're doing now you will undoubtedly be the cause of countless more disasters. In conclusion, get with the program, man. And learn some structured empathy before you dig yourself an ethical ditch you might as well make your grave.

Yours in Reservation,
(The not at the moment) Civil

fatesfortune
July 21st, 2006, 09:37 PM
I found this to be a very good episode. Weir had character in this one, and that made me paticularily happy. She joked, she smiled, and she had more than one emotion, and wasn't the strong cold distant leader all the time. It was nice.
Upset at what happened with Michael, you would have thought they would have learned the first time. I think it would have been interesting to keep him around a little longer. He was more flamboyant in a way than the other wraiths have been, simply because he has had more time to develop as more than a two dimensional character.
Good acting, and good writing by everyone over all through the episode.

Lexx
July 21st, 2006, 09:54 PM
It's a sad day of affairs when I've found myself identifying more with the alien vampires who suck the life out of you than with the show's heros.

Regarding Sheppard, he was uncomfortable. He was uncomfortable being around the "people" because he doesn't think of them as such. To him they're still Wraith and he's shown in the past he has no problem killing them on the spot if he thinks it's the right thing to do. Sorry folks, but I can't get behind that.

I love shades of gray and dark characters as much as the next guy. For example, "In the Pale Moonlight" is my favorite episode of DS9, my favorite Trek series. But everything in that episode pales in comparison to what our "hero's" are doing. To use another aspect of DS9: Section 31 bioengineered a virus to wipe out the Founders. To Section 31 there was no other choice, no chance of peacefully co-existing. But even on DS9, the darkest of the Trek series, this was universally condemned as wrong. Yet, the hero's of SGA are doing the same thing. Developing a biological weapon that fundamentally alters the enemies' DNA and destroys their persona and memories. As Michael pointed out, this is really no different than death for the Wraith. If the memories are wiped out for good, that "person" is dead.

I don't have a probelm with shades of gray. I have a problem with outright reprehensible actions. Oh, and once again I completely agree with ShadowMaat.

stevieg
July 21st, 2006, 10:07 PM
hi i havent seen the episode yet so i know this is sort of off topic but,{Mod Snip} ive been looking for the better part of an hour,if anyone did could you please pm me the link because i dont want to check every post in here for links and i dont want to put the thread any more off topic,
thanks in advance for whichever kind soul will help me

pavaneofstars
July 21st, 2006, 10:13 PM
A great ep. Not as great as last week's, but still good. A few comments:

Becket was great! He finally gets a scene to shine in! Hooray! :D

Loved, loved, loved the reunion moment with the senior staff! :D


My inner McWeir shipper squeed at the looks passed between said characters in the initial briefing, along with McKay's "What, she's hungry too?" tension diffuser comment.
Yes, same here!!! :D

I am so loving the Michael story. Poor guy. :( He's been screwed over twice now. So what was with the weird Wraith séance thing around the fire? And one other thing I couldn't figure out: Why did they kill Nathan?

stevieg, a friendly reminder: we're not supposed to mention the "D" word on gateworld. :)

memnarch
July 21st, 2006, 10:16 PM
First and most importantly, they finally gave Teyla something to do! I'm not a huge fan of hers or something, but I like all the characters and like to see them actually participating in some capacity. It was good that they brought up Teyla's Wraith abilities again, as they were largely missing from season 2. Oh, just a side note here, I'd really like to see Ronon's reaction to Teyla's inherent Wraithness, as that might creep him out more than the Atlantis team. Anyway, Carson really stood out this episode, after his absence from the premiere. His reaction's to the treatment of Michael and the other Wraith are what I felt I would have felt in his place. He certainly voiced the concerns we've all been feeling about the ethics behind their transformation of Wraith into humans. Also, Michael continued to develop into an even stronger character here. It's clear he's very bitter about his situation and is confused and angry about where his place in life is and where he goes from here. However, now that others have experienced what he has, I'm sure he'll adopt some kind of leadership role among them. Oh, and don't think that he's dead, because he's so obviously NOT! Do you think the writers would throw away the only other interesting and individual villain since Kolya away on a whim? Don't think so. (Here's hoping Ford comes back as well, along with Michael in the same episode! That'd be cool) On another note, I'm starting to like Woolsey, or at least not hate him. He's not exactly on our side, but he's likable enough that you don't hate the guy.

Overall I give it 3/4 stars

Fatewarns
July 21st, 2006, 10:16 PM
Tsk. Tsk. There are sooo many things wrong with this episode. I am very disappointed in Sheppard and his gungho attitude about killing the "people" as he puts it. As an anthropology student, I find this whole arc completely disturbing. Michael gets screwed over every time. I hope Karma really kicks the Atlantis team where it hurts. They handled the whole Michael situation very poorly.

He wasn't so much gun-ho about killing people as his years of military experience told him that it was nessacary to kill them.

Fatewarns
July 21st, 2006, 10:29 PM
As for the other wraith, I think there was an alternative solution, presented by a fanfic I read recently. I don't remember the fic, but basically they used culling beams to collect all the wraith until they could figure out what to do with them. Saving them as data would probably take less power than keeping them in stasis, and with less pesky moral side-effects. All it would take to be rid of them is a press of a button--nice and distant, no faces or awkward conversations, just a deleted hard drive.

I think trying the same experiment with the wraith again without a permanent solution was a dumb idea, though, especially when they threw Michael in with the rest of them. Obviously a plot device so Michael can back as a wraith arch-nemesis for Atlantis. I think, given what they knew then (i.e., they didn't know that the wraith would eb able to communicate over such long distances) they should have just dumped them on the planet and left them there to change back and feed on each other. That also removes the pesky moral issues, since they wouldn't be killing any humans. Of course, now we know the wraith could have just called for help.

On the other hand, as some people have suggested, these decisions do make for a slightly darker show. Most of the time on SG-1 the SGC is a bastion of morality, courage, honor and the American Way. They always find a way out of having to make the really tough calls, and they always magically seem to know who to trust. The Atlantis people are making more mistakes in that regard, and consequently getting themselves into situations where they need to make those tougher calls...but then we have the benefit of knowing some things they don't, like who will never be killed off on this show, and that Atlantis and Earth not going to fall anytime soon, and when the "plot twists" are coming (i.e., if they're only 20 minutes into the episode, the "new ally" probably is too good to be true).

first they (I think?) didn't have any darts to use.

second stargate sg-1 made lots of morally questional solutions I guess you can call them.

list of stargate sg-1 morally questional solutions: episode Unnatural Selection, perfect example, allie themselves with the Goul'd, trying to take alien Nazis techoly, killing Reese, and more that I can't think of.

Orion's Star
July 21st, 2006, 10:31 PM
This episode was just not very good. Never mind the poor characterizations of the main characters, or the fact that they never seemed to do a single thing right, but it was the little things that just annoyed the hell out of me. Sheppard was annoying in his disregard for anybody not named Weir or Sheppard, and everybody else was just lame.

1. First Beckett is left on a planet of 200 humans that were just recently Wraith, where who knows what could go wrong (and past history with the retrovirus would tell you something inevitably would go wrong). And what is the size of the security force left to protect Dr. Beckett, four men? Yeah, that makes sense.

2. Then when Dr. Beckett is off traipsing around in the forest, all tra-la-la, what does the guy in charge do when he tells Beckett to come back to camp? Does he send somebody after Beckett to make sure that he makes it back to camp safely? No, of course not, that would be too logical.

3. Now Dr. Beckett, he is not alone in the stoopid. Any smart, rational person would not go following a strange Wraith/human hybrid deep into the forest where he could get lost or God knows what, without backup, or at the very least without at least radioing back his position. Of course what does this result in? His getting captured. Not that this ultimately mattered, because the Atlantis people are dumb anyway, but it is the principle here.

4. I love how on a hive ship that can hold thousands of Wraith, all that it takes to save the day are Teyla, Ronon, Sheppard, and McKay. And ultimately, you only need McKay to do anything important, because he is just that good. One man to run a whole ship! Isn't that just so awesome?

ladysarah
July 21st, 2006, 10:42 PM
I

Regarding Sheppard, he was uncomfortable. He was uncomfortable being around the "people" because he doesn't think of them as such. To him they're still Wraith and he's shown in the past he has no problem killing them on the spot if he thinks it's the right thing to do. Sorry folks, but I can't get behind that.

Wails!!! But why? I get that he's uncomfortable, I get it, we all would be. But he almost became a bug in 'Conversion', that wasn't happy happy, doesn't he at least identify with them at some level? Is he completely without feelings.

He's not Ronon or Teyla, he hasn't been brought up under the threat of the Wraith, he hasn't had his entire world destroyed by them, what the HELL IS HIS PROBLEM!?

I want to know.

Dromag67
July 21st, 2006, 10:44 PM
Wails!!! But why? I get that he's uncomfortable, I get it, we all would be. But he almost became a bug in 'Conversion', that wasn't happy happy, doesn't he at least identify with them at some level? Is he completely without feelings.

He's not Ronon or Teyla, he hasn't been brought up under the threat of the Wraith, he hasn't had his entire world destroyed by them, what the HELL IS HIS PROBLEM!?

I want to know.


Good question.

ladysarah
July 21st, 2006, 10:46 PM
Good question.


Maybe Sheppard has some twisted guilt complex for waking them up in the first place, and he wants them eradicated completely so he doesn't have to deal with his guilt all the time.

It's a good theory as any with the lack of you know, any characterisation, or backstory, or anything.


AT least I understand Ronon.

Gateboy13
July 21st, 2006, 10:55 PM
I thought this was a good episode, but what I want to know is why didn’t Sheppard try and take out the wraith on the planet with drones after the nuke failed to go off? He could have used the jumpers’ sensors and HUD to pinpoint exactly where they were at and do precision strikes instead of taking the chance with a hive ship that’s barely working. After all it’s pretty important that those Wraith didn’t survive, especially with the knowledge of Atlantis.

pavaneofstars
July 21st, 2006, 11:05 PM
why didn’t Sheppard try and take out the wraith on the planet with drones after the nuke failed to go off?
Good question. Maybe the Jumper wasn't armed with drones? Though it seems weird that the jumper wouldn't be armed. I dunno. :S

Hatusu
July 21st, 2006, 11:22 PM
As a whole, however, I really wish I hadn't watched this self-important steaming pile to stupid.
It was very interesting reading your opinions on this episode. I submitted my opinions as a review (as you should have done) and I don't know yet whether it will be accepted, but our views of the show are radically different. We saw the same bad choices and questionable ethics, however, I felt the episode was intended to make us think about these issues. You definitely had an immediate reaction. :)

RoryJ
July 21st, 2006, 11:30 PM
I quite liked this episode. I'm glad Woolsey didn't become a token bad guy and that he actually made a morally questionable decision himself. Quite interesting. I also like how Caldwell is playing on Atlantis' side. He's been through too much with our guys to hang them out to dry, which does the character a great service.
I could see Sheppard's discomfort, and I understood how he honestly couldn't bring himself to think of the Wraith as people. They've tried to eat him and his men on several occasions, they attempted to blow up his new home, and Michael ended up screwing them over anyway (the first time). He doesn't like them and he has no porblem killing them, and I get that. That's the darkness to Sheppard that makes him interesting to me. I don't always agree, but it feels real. I like when the "heroes" aren't heroes, but instead fallible people. John is without a doubt fallible, which I (usually) enjoy.
Loved the team moments. Teyla and Elizabeth actually being surprised to find out John was alive, the moment in the conference room, piloting the Wraith ship, the office scene with John and Elizabeth, Rodney actually telling a joke to make Elizabeth feel better. All good stuff that I've missed seeing lately on SG-1.
As for Carson wandering off in the woods alone; I was yelling at the TV the whole time, but it was a very Carson thing to do. The man is so naive still, but I saw a lot of maturity in his scene with Michael at the end. I bet he'll be thinking about that moment for a long time yet. Shame on the marine for letting Carson wander alone, though.
Now as for the entire plot of the Wraith on the planet. I supported the storyline out of sheer interest to see what would happen, but it would have been a hell of a lot easier to kill them while they were in stasis. Just suck it up and clean up your mess, guys. The Wraith don't want to be humans. I really hope this is the last time they try and pull this, because the retrovirus as a whole is a fantastically failed experiment.

Lord_Revan
July 21st, 2006, 11:35 PM
To me the entire Wraith war is confuseing it's like both sides can never do the right thing no matter what. They are fighting the Wraith because they feed on humans but they must do so in order to survive they can't help that. We look at that as so wrong and so terrible Beckett then comes up with a retrovirus to "cure" the Wraith make them forget who and what they once were so then other Wraith will just feed on them and leave us be. I think what they are doing is worse than what the Wraith are doing to humans and I know somebody is probably gonia say well hey it's war it's them or us, that may be true but it dosent mean they couldent work harder on a drug with less extream side-effects that is if the memory loss is a side-effect I think it may be. For example create a similar retrovirus to where it would just take out some of the bug dna and restart their digestive system to where they would have at least a choice or even better take out the Wraith's ability to feed altogether. Im sure this could be done they are surrounded by tech thousands of years ahead of us.

Fatewarns
July 22nd, 2006, 12:09 AM
I thought this was a good episode, but what I want to know is why didn’t Sheppard try and take out the wraith on the planet with drones after the nuke failed to go off? He could have used the jumpers’ sensors and HUD to pinpoint exactly where they were at and do precision strikes instead of taking the chance with a hive ship that’s barely working. After all it’s pretty important that those Wraith didn’t survive, especially with the knowledge of Atlantis.

not enough firepower


To me the entire Wraith war is confuseing it's like both sides can never do the right thing no matter what. They are fighting the Wraith because they feed on humans but they must do so in order to survive they can't help that. We look at that as so wrong and so terrible Beckett then comes up with a retrovirus to "cure" the Wraith make them forget who and what they once were so then other Wraith will just feed on them and leave us be. I think what they are doing is worse than what the Wraith are doing to humans and I know somebody is probably gonia say well hey it's war it's them or us, that may be true but it dosent mean they couldent work harder on a drug with less extream side-effects that is if the memory loss is a side-effect I think it may be. For example create a similar retrovirus to where it would just take out some of the bug dna and restart their digestive system to where they would have at least a choice or even better take out the Wraith's ability to feed altogether. Im sure this could be done they are surrounded by tech thousands of years ahead of us.

I don't know if it's is worse, but I do have to admit it is still pretty questional.

aAnubiSs
July 22nd, 2006, 12:10 AM
How much power does a stasis pod use? I'm sure Atlantis has several of them, since a warship had over 300 of them.

Use the retrovirus and put them in Atlantis' statis pods. This should've atleast been done with Michael since he isn't exactly random Wraith guy no.42

Dromag67
July 22nd, 2006, 12:14 AM
How much power does a stasis pod use? I'm sure Atlantis has several of them, since a warship had over 300 of them.

Use the retrovirus and put them in Atlantis' statis pods. This should've atleast been done with Michael since he isn't exactly random Wraith guy no.42

I was also thinking about the stasis pods on atlantis.

All hail the USAF
July 22nd, 2006, 12:33 AM
When did the team become so dumb?

They had what would have been a GREAT ally with Michael and they just threw it away and made a bitter enemy...

Lord_Revan
July 22nd, 2006, 12:56 AM
When did the team become so dumb?

They had what would have been a GREAT ally with Michael and they just threw it away and made a bitter enemy...

I agree the team has become quite... stupid. I do not think they seriously thought their decision though and how serious the consequences would be if he found out what they had done to him yet again and escaped. So now Michael has not only follwers but a nuclear weapon and will stop at nothing to get his revenge, I seriously doubt he and the others will just forget about what they did. Whatever the team has comin to them they will probably deserve it.

All hail the USAF
July 22nd, 2006, 01:00 AM
I agree the team has become quite... stupid. I do not think they seriously thought their decision though and how serious the consequences would be if he found out what they had done to him yet again and escaped. So now Michael has not only follwers but a nuclear weapon and will stop at nothing to get his revenge, I seriously doubt he and the others will just forget about what they did. Whatever the team has comin to them they will probably deserve it.


I was really shocked by it...they had no reason to turn him again...Theres no telling what he could have helped with...

expendable_crewman
July 22nd, 2006, 01:02 AM
Sheppard wasn't being a jerk to Lathan or Nathan, whatever his name was. He was highly uncomfortable, with all of it. He isn't thrilled with what's happening but I don't get where people think they had a choice.

These were their choices:

1: Leave them in stasis, drain the Hive ship of power, and what...leave them in stasis in the ship in orbit around Atlantis. Ohhh-kay. That probably isn't a good idea.

2: Kill them. First. Without *trying* to save them.

3: Try to handle it. Try to set them free make a cover story, get them to try to adjust to being humans.


The retrovirus was a bad idea. But the choices they've made since then are damage control and they don't have a lot of choices. Michael couldn't go free, he knew too much. The human/wraith couldn't be left alive for the coming Hive ship to find, because then they'd know the truth about Atlantis.

The wraith aren't going to make peace with humans. You don't make peace with your chicken dinner. And the wraith can only sustain themselves on humans. If the only thing that keeps you alive is a certain type of food, no matter how much the food begs, you're still gonna eat it, because it's your life or theirs.

And we've seen nothing prior to Michael to suggest the wraith regard humans as anything more *than* food, so there isn't the option of 'let's work together to find a way to feed you that doesn't rely on us'. The two species are incompatible to sharing the same space.

And Sheppard is making the choices he has to now that events are in motion. He's not mean, nasty or a jerk. He doesn't like it, he's uncomfortable, he wishes it could be different.Good points.

I guess we have to give a nod to somebody in the writing department when a discussion like this is started about an enemy that was introduced two years ago as committed to treating an entire galaxy like a cattle ranch, up to and including letting their human livestock get a two-century breather to replenish the "stock" and raise a couple of generations ... so it can have more to eat.

Nothing shown at the end of season 2 or the beginning of season 3 indicates the above has changed. The last, what is it, five episodes have not attempted to "gray" the Wraith place in the PG. What they've done is make us ask questions like, "How far as we willing to go to defeat them?" Though I don't think the writers have been dead-on straight down the line, I can't argue with the fact they did something right ... The Wraith of "Misbegotten" were the same Wraith of "Rising" except the Wraith of "Misbegotten" were "gassed" enroute to a culling on Earth. And viewers got heartsick watching their plight in tonight's episode.

I have no problem with a show that evokes this reaction. A la the old Cold War question, "Do the Wraith love their children too?"

Yeah, I get those twinges but after I shake my head, rather than re-write season 1 canon, I stick with: "Who cares?" When will this culture, which has stolen or invented hyperdrive technology, create an alternative food source? The answer: in Stargate canon, no time soon. The Wraith don't want to. At present, the Wraith do what they do because they like their place in the Pegasus Galaxy food chain.

Truthfully, I've been uncomfortable since "Michael" and agree that the Atlantis expedition was working through the consequences of a bad error in judgment ... I like it that the team makes mistakes, but that's the way I like my characters and my shows. Otherwise, the 304's airlock (stasis? OMG) was the way to go. Don't ask me what I'd do. I'm not comfortable with that responsibility. (I prefer to watch others struggle with it on TV.) And I'm not sure yet that ferrying 200 Wraith-turned-humans back to Pegasus (given the failure in "Michael") was any more moral or fair than an airlock solution.

I didn't have a problem with Sheppard. IMO, he was played in "Misbegotten" as capable of seeing that two plus two equals four. He was used as a backdrop to Beckett's position so we could get "uncomfortable." We were supposed to feel ill at ease. That's my opinion. There was a general "This will not end well" color to Sheppard's actions. He looked like his stomach was curdling. The character and I had that in common. I'm a little put off by the suggestion that if he had treated the Wraith better, the story's outcome might have been different. Someone wrote something to the effect that "Sheppard was being Sheppard." My takeaway from the episode was the Wraith were being Wraith.

Michael says he's not evil, this is who / what he is. I prefer to listen to what the story is saying. And I believe Michael. He wants to be a Wraith.

Clues about Michael, who is good, IMO, as a villain because he's so ... honest about himself ... the clues are big as speed bumps. Speed bumps with spikes in them. He doesn't want rehabilitation. He doesn't think he's got a problem. It all comes down to nature, he believes. Give him a ship and supplies? What kind of supplies does he need? We know he doesn't need a can opener. Agree with him if you think ten thousand years of culling is the natural order of things. Agree with him but unless I missed an episode I don't think we're supposed to forget what he is. He's constantly telling us. He doesn't hide it. He's starting to remind me of Hanibal Lector, another irredeemable, entertaining character. BTW, the humans didn't suggest gassing the hive ship. Michael "I wanna keep living" the Wraith did. (So sad he has Trip's face ...)

Poor Michael. Okay ... For me "poor Michael" left town at the thirty-minute mark in the "Michael" episode. Maybe they should not have injected him. Then instead of being our new SGA villain with a nuke, he'd just be dead.

Anyway, somebody must be doing something right if this discussion is even happening ...

Sauron18
July 22nd, 2006, 01:10 AM
It was a good episode, it was nice to see more about the wraith, more views of their ships, their society structure (despite the difference in clothing), as well as nice to see the stasis chambers properly.

Also kind of cool to see wraith that have different faces, though James Lafazanos was cool and all, a little change now and then is not bad.

Si I guess my highlight for this episode was that we got to see more about the wraith, and how they act in different situations, as well as a bit more about how they live.

Lord_Revan
July 22nd, 2006, 01:14 AM
I was really shocked by it...they had no reason to turn him again...Theres no telling what he could have helped with...

They were afarid that he was going to tell the other wraith what... that Atlantis still exists hey he already knew that. He knows that even if he did tell another queen the same thing he did the last about Atlantis they would still hate him for what he was no amount of information he gives them would change that. Plus he did help them get a hive ship and he even drove it back to Atlantis for them. I would have felt sorry for him the Wraith don't want him we don't want him nobody really and we did this to him so I would have at least let him out and walk around the city.

Dromag67
July 22nd, 2006, 01:53 AM
There were two realistic options.

Let him have a ship and hope he helps you in the future

Or

Let Ronon shoot him


Instead the choose the insanely stupid idea of turning him human AGAIN, after he saves their lives and drives them home.

:S Poor Michael.

areghnatha
July 22nd, 2006, 02:07 AM
I have not seen this episode so far...
But I think it would be a better idea to find a way that the Wraith are able to eat things like humans (that is better than starving on hunger) than turning them into humans. As we have seen in "Michael" this does not work...
Why is Beckett not working on that?
I think that our "heros" forgot everything about humanity when they first met the Wraith and get to know that they are only food in the eyes of the Wraith.

HelenT
July 22nd, 2006, 02:45 AM
Good points.

I guess we have to give a nod to somebody in the writing department when a discussion like this is started about an enemy that was introduced two years ago as committed to treating an entire galaxy like a cattle ranch, up to and including letting their human livestock get a two-century breather to replenish the "stock" and raise a couple of generations ... so it can have more to eat.

Nothing shown at the end of season 2 or the beginning of season 3 indicates the above has changed. The last, what is it, five episodes have not attempted to "gray" the Wraith place in the PG. What they've done is make us ask questions like, "How far as we willing to go to defeat them?" Though I don't think the writers have been dead-on straight down the line, I can't argue with the fact they did something right ... The Wraith of "Misbegotten" were the same Wraith of "Rising" except the Wraith of "Misbegotten" were "gassed" enroute to a culling on Earth. And viewers got heartsick watching their plight in tonight's episode.

I have no problem with a show that evokes this reaction. A la the old Cold War question, "Do the Wraith love their children too?"

Yeah, I get those twinges but after I shake my head, rather than re-write season 1 canon, I stick with: "Who cares?" When will this culture, which has stolen or invented hyperdrive technology, create an alternative food source? The answer: in Stargate canon, no time soon. The Wraith don't want to. At present, the Wraith do what they do because they like their place in the Pegasus Galaxy food chain.

Truthfully, I've been uncomfortable since "Michael" and agree that the Atlantis expedition was working through the consequences of a bad error in judgment ... I like it that the team makes mistakes, but that's the way I like my characters and my shows. Otherwise, the 304's airlock (stasis? OMG) was the way to go. Don't ask me what I'd do. I'm not comfortable with that responsibility. (I prefer to watch others struggle with it on TV.) And I'm not sure yet that ferrying 200 Wraith-turned-humans back to Pegasus (given the failure in "Michael") was any more moral or fair than an airlock solution.

I didn't have a problem with Sheppard. IMO, he was played in "Misbegotten" as capable of seeing that two plus two equals four. He was used as a backdrop to Beckett's position so we could get "uncomfortable." We were supposed to feel ill at ease. That's my opinion. There was a general "This will not end well" color to Sheppard's actions. He looked like his stomach was curdling. The character and I had that in common. I'm a little put off by the suggestion that if he had treated the Wraith better, the story's outcome might have been different. Someone wrote something to the effect that "Sheppard was being Sheppard." My takeaway from the episode was the Wraith were being Wraith.

Michael says he's not evil, this is who / what he is. I prefer to listen to what the story is saying. And I believe Michael. He wants to be a Wraith.

Clues about Michael, who is good, IMO, as a villain because he's so ... honest about himself ... the clues are big as speed bumps. Speed bumps with spikes in them. He doesn't want rehabilitation. He doesn't think he's got a problem. It all comes down to nature, he believes. Give him a ship and supplies? What kind of supplies does he need? We know he doesn't need a can opener. Agree with him if you think ten thousand years of culling is the natural order of things. Agree with him but unless I missed an episode I don't think we're supposed to forget what he is. He's constantly telling us. He doesn't hide it. He's starting to remind me of Hanibal Lector, another irredeemable, entertaining character. BTW, the humans didn't suggest gassing the hive ship. Michael "I wanna keep living" the Wraith did. (So sad he has Trip's face ...)

Poor Michael. Okay ... For me "poor Michael" left town at the thirty-minute mark in the "Michael" episode. Maybe they should not have injected him. Then instead of being our new SGA villain with a nuke, he'd just be dead.

Anyway, somebody must be doing something right if this discussion is even happening ...

You also make some excellent points yourself. I agree with you wholeheartedly; especially over Michael. The writers have set this up from 'Michael' to be SGA's version of SG-1's 'First' of the replicators. IMO there are distinct parallels. A destructive single-minded foe suddenly takes on human aspects and begins to question existance and who has right to it and in what form.

Unfortunately accepting that those questions are valid does not make them easier to answer. The Wraith and Michael have not fundamentally changed to the point where humans and they each can go their own way.

Also, the Wraith until this arc were almost an indifferent enemy. They wanted to eat humans, yes, but there was nothing personal about it. That to me was what made the Genii a much more compelling foe, because there was real animosity there. The writers have now set it up where there are Wraith with a VERY personal vendetta against the humans of Atlantis, and moreover, done so by giving them a REAL reason for that animosity with a very distinctive figurehead that the viewers alredy have some sympathy for. Dark stuff to be sure.

I'm a little uneasy about that because it's not a comfortable position to be in. To me it seems that the writers have taken a gamble that the viewers are ready and able to handle a grittier storyline where grey areas abound and lines are fuzzy.

I could gladly handle that if I thought that they were going to pursue it, but I'm curious how they are going to flow this into the new threat they have set up for the season.

All in all, I think this could be exceedingly compelling viewing if done right. I still think it's a risky direction to take with their heroes though. It seems that in the 'gateverse' fandom there is a preference for clearly drawn lines with unambiguous morality that never smears the main characters. I guess we'll have to wait and see.

Alipeeps
July 22nd, 2006, 03:13 AM
Ok, my thoughts, having just watched the ep:

All in all I thought it was a good ep, through not a great one. It came across a little bit as a filler ep for me. I think it suffered by trying so hard to tie up all of the loose ends of various plot threads from the S2 finale and the S3 premiere.

That said - there was lots to enjoy in this ep, mostly in terms of character moments. I know TPTB had said they were going to bring in a lot more character development in S3, and particularly in terms of showing the deep bonds within the SGA team etc, and I can see that happening already - and I love it.

So many delightful moments such as:

Sheppard getting all agitated on Weir's behalf (nice to see him getting worked up over something and not just being Mr Laid Back all the time too - but still keeping that hint of Sheppard humour in there and keeping it in character).

The team scene where Weir tries to express her releif at having everyone back safe - and McKay deliberately making a joke to ease the tension and make Weir smile, not just to be a smart-ass.

Sheppard getting to be a proper soldier - taking down a Wraith quickly and quietly with his knife.

Beckett not only arguing his moral corner but also admitting - to Michael - that his moral standpoint is perhaps not what it once was. True, that was kind of a dig at Michael and what he was doing to Beckett but it also spoke to a darker truth about Beckett's involvement in the weaponisation of the retrovirus etc.

All this and more is good in this ep - my only real criticism of it is that it seemed disjointed. We kept moving forward in time without any real explanation (Oh, hang on. Weir's back on Atlantis now? Right, so time has passed then? How much time? Weeks? What?) and that was confusing and distracting and kinda prevented the ep from buiding up any kind of pace or sense of tension. A symptom I feel of trying to tie up all of those loose ends.. some of which can't be resolved overnight. But they didn't want to drag the story arc out over any more eps (gotta have that magic reset button with syndication in mind) so they tried to cram a few weeks worth of plot developments into one ep. I don't think I've ever seen one episode of a show try to encompass such a long passage of time within the ep.

I'm guessing there is going to be a lot of dicussion over the moral issues in this episode and hey, that's great because if it makes you think and makes you discuss it then it's good TV, right?

The choice made by Sheppard at the end was difficult but - realistically - their only option. They knew from the start that they would not be able to just let these people go and it was always a possibility that this would have to happen. My view on the morality of this issue is that those people were only alive in the first placec because the SGA team had had no other choice. If they'd had the capability in NML, they would have blown that entire hive to smithereens and all those Wraith would be dead anyhow. The only reason they survived at all was because the retrovirus was the only weapon the Daedalus had left to try and ensure the surivial of their own people. And once they had turned those Wraith human, they did try and do their best by them.

I think it is more morally interesting - and dubious - to look at their treatment of Michael. They turned on the man who saved their lives. He betrayed his own kind to save them - and they in turn betrayed him. Now that is dark. And yet, again, I can see why they had to do that. It's a hard pill to swallow but, really, what other choice did they have? They could not simply let him go with the knowledge he possessed, but they also could not keep him as a Wraith on Atlantis - how would he feed?

All in all a very interesting episode. It suffered a little from the disjointed feel of trying to pay off all those storylines but we had some great character moment and character development and it was an enjoyable ep. I'm feeling satisfied that the story arc has been fairly well tied up and I'm ready to get into Season 3 proper. Bring on Sateda! :D

P.S. To all those who will no doubt be saying "They blew up another ship as soon as they got it??!!!", I think we've got to accept that they are unlikely to get an keep any kind of advanced warship like that for any period of time. You can't have that element of threat and danger to the show if you can always get out of it by saying "Oh hey, we'll just blow them up with outr ancient warship/Wraith hive ship."

AutumnDream
July 22nd, 2006, 03:18 AM
This episode is basically the image of what the show has become since Season 2. Which is, precisely - Characters were great, plot was iffy. On many, many levels.

Alipeeps
July 22nd, 2006, 03:44 AM
I was really shocked by it...they had no reason to turn him again...Theres no telling what he could have helped with...

Umm. And just how do you suggest they were to feed Michael? Ask for volunteers amongst the expedition or the Athosians? "It's for the good of the team, really. There's no telling what he could help us with!"

Go out and hunt humans and bring them back to feed to him?

It was a tough choice - and one I find hard to swallow too - they betrayed the guy who saved them. But I can also see where they didn't have a lot of other options.

kaeyla
July 22nd, 2006, 03:59 AM
Good bye Stargate atlantis it was nice knowing you...time to move on...at least I have the wraith to take with me

Willow'sCat
July 22nd, 2006, 04:01 AM
First I want to start with a much miss-quoted, quote:;) *which I hope I am quoting correctly* :S

"I am sick and tired of war.
Its glory is all moonshine. It is only those who have neither fired a shot nor heard the shrieks and groans of the wounded who cry aloud for blood, for vengeance, for desolation.
War is hell."

I think that is my review of this episode. Sheppard has fired and has heard the shrieks but he still cries for blood, more vengeance, more desolation. He isn't a hero he is barely a man. If this is development... TPTB need to talk to Joss Whedon or even Russell T Davis. :cool:

Leaving my disappointment in Sheppard aside.

Stop the presses! Weir is let off! *again* Jeez, didn't see that one coming. True the only way I would be happy is if she left and that ain't gonna happen but I would have been a little happy if she had realised she made her own mess and owned up to it fully instead of whinging about how the pen pushers never make a decision, seems she is more like them with that talk, blame anyone but yourself.

The obviously shippy moment with Sheppard and Weir better of been a joke, there is no way I will put up with SGA doing a Jack/Sam on us. I spend 7 years on that ride and I actually liked both of them but no way will I do it with these two. :mad:

Coming back to Sheppard, I get he is the military guy and he makes the hard decision and he has to live with them... oh wait wrong show. :P This is Sheppard, not some tough guy who has been set up that way from episode one, Sheppard was pulled back from the darker persona in late season one and all of season two, so now we are back to dark Sheppard, just like that. Well OK but if they hit the big red reset button next week in "Irresistible" and we get the Kirking and the goofy I will not be pleased, no person can with sanity carry that kind of personality change. A little yes but we had a very Sumner like Sheppard in this episode, I couldn't see Sumner making nice and goofy with the ladies so I don't want this new *old* Sheppard to either. *sh I forgot am talking about continuity and TPTB don't like that kind of talk* :P

Ronon has to go, I want Ford back. :p Even wacko Ford is better then he-man hulk Ronon and wow that is a surprise because I use to cheer for him, but his hatred is too intense he will never be able to be controlled so there should be no place for him on Atlantis and especially The Team, I don't need to see Sateda (?) to understand him I get him loud and clear.

Beckett, yay and boo, hiss! Yay he is there but boo for being so spineless, I mean I expect McKay to cave quickly but Beckett once had a whole heap of morals wtf happened to them? :S At least he admits it but it will take more then that to get me back on the Beckett bandwagon.

Teyla, what about her? I seem to have missed most of her stuff, must have been the Sheppard thing getting in the way. :S

McKay, doing Sheppard's dirty work for him, it was his finger/s on the button *or whatever* that deployed the weapons, so if it makes fans feel any better they can blame McKay. ;) At least he showed *hugs David Hewlett for his talented facial expressions* that the death of a 100 Human Wraith wasn't sitting easy with him. Unlike Sheppard who seemed almost upset that Teyla, Beckett and McKay were not sure about this plan to slaughter the Human Wraith as well as the others.

Deplorable throw away line made to make us feel OK about all of this goes to Ronon... they're about to become casualties of war.. well la de da, never thought of looking at it like that! :rolleyes: Now boys and girls let's hear the one about war is hell. :cool:

Funny things... Well Steven and Woosley was fun to watch, a nice little dance. See I told you he didn't really want Weir's job, who can blame him if he waits long enough it will be his anyway without having to push her out himself.;)

McKay's little joke at himself, nice touch but not really in character. :S

Um, that was pretty much it. The rest was too ordinary/boring or stupid to bother with.
:mckay:

Merlin7
July 22nd, 2006, 04:02 AM
An open letter to John Sheppard.


Dear John;

I hate you and you suck. At the moment, I feel this encapsulates my feeling towards you quite nicely. You are wrong about the Wraith and you're going to mess up this whole expedition just like everyone said you would. You are too stupid and thick-headed to realize that the Wraith are not just night time monsters out suck our souls with their creepy mouth-hands. They are, in fact, a thinking, feeling, highly advanced race. They are a formidable opponent. Life or death, or not, if they weren't aliens from outer space you wouldn't be so stupid as to underestimate them, and you know it too. You feel guilty about what you did, and now you are so desperate to fix what you did that you'd kill them all rather than truly face the mistake you made. It's not about saving earth because we all know you sure as hell aren't a hero, what happened in Afghanistan be ******, you're just trying to cover your own ***. Beckett isn't the only Frankenstein, but at very least he had the decency to commit himself to the responsibility of his creations. You are so irresponsible and incompetent it would be better for the expedition to be recalled before more people died because of your "leadership skills". Seriously, you couldn't lead a troop of S.E.A.L.s out of a paper bag. If you had any sense whatsoever, you'd listen to every word that Caldwell says and follow every order Elizabeth gives you because if you keep doing what you're doing now you will undoubtedly be the cause of countless more disasters. In conclusion, get with the program, man. And learn some structured empathy before you dig yourself an ethical ditch you might as well make your grave.

Yours in Reservation,
(The not at the moment) Civil


So you missed the part where ELIZABETH gave the order to CARSON to do the experiment on Micheal. Where Sheppard told her not to let Micheal roam Atlantis and she went against SHEP's advice. Wehre Carson and Weir ALONE are responsible for the MESS of Micheal and the othre changed Wraith. They are not human. They are still Wraith. And everything that led up to and happened on MISBEGOTTEN is WEIR's FAULT in the end. She agreed to all of it.


Thank GOD for Sheppard. The only one willing to clean up WEIR and Carson's mess.

Sheppard making the decisions about the whole thing back when Carson went to Weir to begin with? None of this would have happened. Nice try though. Blame Shep just cause you hate him.

Don't blame the person in Charge actually MAKING THE WRONG DECISIONS! ::waves to Weir::

Merlin7
July 22nd, 2006, 04:05 AM
Wails!!! But why? I get that he's uncomfortable, I get it, we all would be. But he almost became a bug in 'Conversion', that wasn't happy happy, doesn't he at least identify with them at some level? Is he completely without feelings.

He's not Ronon or Teyla, he hasn't been brought up under the threat of the Wraith, he hasn't had his entire world destroyed by them, what the HELL IS HIS PROBLEM!?

I want to know.


I believe his conversion is the reason he KNOWS they had no choice but to stop the WRAITH. He knew he was losing his humanity. He KNEW Better than anyone. And Weir and Beckett made this mess. ShEPPARD Stopped it. Go Shep.

Willow'sCat
July 22nd, 2006, 04:11 AM
Frankly the only thing saving this show right now are great actors like Paul McGillion, Connor Trinneer and David Hewlett because these days there seems to be more 'holes' then plot.Lol! Now if they would just do a spin off with David/Paul and Connor I would so be there. :D

AGateFan
July 22nd, 2006, 04:59 AM
Quick question.

The wraith used their mind connection with other wraith to call for help. But wraith are at war with each other because they are running out of food. So why would some random wraith ship go out of its way to pick up some random wraith people who were not part of their own hive?

OutThere
July 22nd, 2006, 05:06 AM
Quick question.

The wraith used their mind connection with other wraith to call for help. But wraith are at war with each other because they are running out of food. So why would some random wraith ship go out of its way to pick up some random wraith people who were not part of their own hive?

For the intell, perhaps? There aren't many things out there that can take out the wraith. It would be in their best interest to find out what happened.

Bugginkrd
July 22nd, 2006, 05:07 AM
:ronan: Newbie here. Did I miss something because I thought you could not go through the Atlantis gate and get to earth? Something about not enough power to connect the two? Then when Weir and Woolsy returned they used an Asgard ship. When Woolsy left he walked through the gate? I'm confused.

I also thought 'Sateda' was going to be the next episode, but they showed something else?

Alipeeps
July 22nd, 2006, 05:12 AM
Quick question.

The wraith used their mind connection with other wraith to call for help. But wraith are at war with each other because they are running out of food. So why would some random wraith ship go out of its way to pick up some random wraith people who were not part of their own hive?

Free food! The Wraith who did revert are keeping the other human-wraith medicated and human. There are over 100 walking Big Macs on that planet as far as the Wraith are concerned! :D

Alipeeps
July 22nd, 2006, 05:14 AM
:ronan: Newbie here. Did I miss something because I thought you could not go through the Atlantis gate and get to earth? Something about not enough power to connect the two? Then when Weir and Woolsy returned they used an Asgard ship. When Woolsy left he walked through the gate? I'm confused.

I also thought 'Sateda' was going to be the next episode, but they showed something else?

First question first - you can travel through the stargate from Atlantis to Earth because Atlantis has a ZPM to power the gate. You can't travel by stargate from Earth to Atlantis however because Earth doesn't have a ZPM and doesn't have enough power to establish a wormhole to Atlantis. Hence Woolsey and Weir had to come to Atlantis by Asgard ship.

Second question: I believe Sateda was originally slated to be the third ep aired but, for reasons unknown, TPTB seem to have changed this and Irresistible is going to be on next.

AGateFan
July 22nd, 2006, 05:15 AM
:ronan: Newbie here. Did I miss something because I thought you could not go through the Atlantis gate and get to earth? Something about not enough power to connect the two? Then when Weir and Woolsy returned they used an Asgard ship. When Woolsy left he walked through the gate? I'm confused.

I also thought 'Sateda' was going to be the next episode, but they showed something else?
They got a ZPM last year. So they can open a gate back to earth now.
They still have to fly to Atlantis though because now earth doesnt have a ZPM.
EDIT: Too slow Alipeeps beat me to it :)


For the intell, perhaps? There aren't many things out there that can take out the wraith. It would be in their best interest to find out what happened.

Good point. All I could think is. "why are they picking up members of an enemy hive? Now they will have to feed them."

rarocks24
July 22nd, 2006, 05:18 AM
He didn't read as uncomfortable to me, he read as dismissive and possibly even a little repulsed. Hence his hesitation at even calling them people.
Something Woolsey picked up on during the episode.

rarocks24
July 22nd, 2006, 05:19 AM
They got a ZPM last year. So they can open a gate back to earth now.
They still have to fly to Atlantis though because now earth doesnt have a ZPM.
EDIT: Too slow Alipeeps beat me to it :)



Good point. All I could think is. "why are they picking up members of an enemy hive? Now they will have to feed them."
Woolsey went back through the Stargate....I don't remember that.

AGateFan
July 22nd, 2006, 05:21 AM
Woolsey went back through the Stargate....I don't remember that.
It was at the very end. He was back in a suit and carrying his breif case. Got up after talking to Liz and Liz kinda walked to the window of her office while the gate was open and they had a nice wide shot. (unless I dreamed it).

donnie_darko
July 22nd, 2006, 05:28 AM
Is it just me but can what we did to those Wraith be called genocide?

HelenT
July 22nd, 2006, 05:30 AM
Something Woolsey picked up on during the episode.

I'm not saying the decision wasn't tough or have enough moral issues to down in, but am I the only one thinking that a temporarily de-clawed Wraith is still a Wraith(to be again)?

And, aren't the Wraith still the same fine folks that like to travel around a galaxy harvesting unarmed thousands by the week? Not to mention, I don't think the plan on arriving to Earth involved an honourable battle either.

I recognise the idea that 'we' shouldn't stoop to their level, but to some there is also the argument for survival.

rarocks24
July 22nd, 2006, 05:36 AM
Which is why they should have left them in stasis, until a more permanent solution could be found.

That wasn't the only plothole in this episode.

I found myself wondering where they got the nuclear bomb if Daedalus exhausted them all. :S

I guess Atlantis has a stock pile, and I don't imagine the Genii just giving them up.

HelenT
July 22nd, 2006, 06:04 AM
Which is why they should have left them in stasis, until a more permanent solution could be found.

I agree that sounds like an option, and perhaps, one Sheppard considered and dismissed as too risky. Isn't it feasible that during this internal debate he may have come to the conlusion that they don't know enough about how the statis chamber may effect the returning Wraith aspects. Stasis chambers don't stop change, they should slow it down. Sure 10K years is a lot of time, BUT the chambers are designed to maintain a <i>human</i> life, and the returning wraith DNA could be aggressive enough to bring them out of Statis within a few months, or years.

The way I see it, John, had perhaps a minute to make the decision on whether to elimate the threat to Atlantis and Earth, or try for a softer option. Also don't think it is unreasobable that to a military man charged with the defence/protection of the city and Earth the risk of the softer option is unacceptable.

I know I would hesitate to take that risk. I wouldn't want to be having to explain to grieving loved ones why I'd let a 100 Wraith exist in Atlantis, right next to their son/daughter/wife/husband/mother/father.

TJuk
July 22nd, 2006, 06:19 AM
Beckett, yay and boo, hiss! Yay he is there but boo for being so spineless, I mean I expect McKay to cave quickly but Beckett once had a whole heap of morals wtf happened to them? :S At least he admits it but it will take more then that to get me back on the Beckett bandwagon.


Well ya know, we dont even KNOW what Michael did to him to make him cave in, so you cant really call him spineless (he did stay on a planet full of non-wraith now didn't he?). The actors were perfically capable of doing something seriously juicy and HARD and pulling it off (as both have proven in the past), the writing/editing whatever whimps out at just the wrong bloody point. Thats pretty much SGA all over, half-assed attempts only made worse by the fact the writing cant seem to make up its mind. But wait, sorry no time pimping SG1...paving the way for more crossover...digging the shows grave...

FoolishPleasure
July 22nd, 2006, 07:08 AM
It was very interesting reading your opinions on this episode. I submitted my opinions as a review (as you should have done) and I don't know yet whether it will be accepted, but our views of the show are radically different. We saw the same bad choices and questionable ethics, however, I felt the episode was intended to make us think about these issues. You definitely had an immediate reaction. :)
Can't wait to read your review! I give kudos to TPTB for tackling the issue of experimentation, but I don't feel they "quite" hit the bullseye.

This episode had the same feeling as SG1's "Unnatural Selection" (which others have mentioned), but while O'Neill made a gutsy, unpopular decision to have the team turn their backs on a friend, I understood why he did it, and I didn't feel he was being vindictive or mean in any way, he had regret. Same with the episode involving Reese (title forgotten in my feeble brain). I loved Reese and felt her pain and confusion, but Sam told Jack that Reese was losing control and Jack took appropriate action. Again, I felt pain for everyone - it was a sad episode all the way around.

In this SGA episode, I only felt emotion for Michael and his Wraith buds for some strange reason. They were now humans, they were confused, frightened, and everyone except for Beckett seemed to be treating them like prisoners instead of the ill, quarantined patients they supposedly were.

In NML, Sheppard and Michael appear to be on very good terms, Michael helps our gang, they all talk and engage with each other. In this episode Michael is suddently treated by our gang like the Queen treated Michael in NML. I guess its okay to be "friends" with Michael when he's saving your life, but then it was all, "we have to get rid of him" when he is no longer needed. It all just seemed to be very cold behavior by our heroes and I didn't really care for it. It would have been better to have our gang face remorse, regret, make mention of "wish we didn't have to do this".

Our humans just seemed to be missing some humanity.

CalmStorm
July 22nd, 2006, 07:13 AM
Anybody else think that Woolsey looked a little girly in the SGA uniform?

Perhaps, to me, it's because I have only seen Weir and Teyla in the red flagged uniforms. It was just a funny look on him.

Alipeeps
July 22nd, 2006, 07:16 AM
Woolsey went back through the Stargate....I don't remember that.

After he walked out of Weir's office he went through the control room and asked the gate technicain to dial Earth and then he headed down the steps to the stargate - and Weir stood up and watched him go.


Which is why they should have left them in stasis, until a more permanent solution could be found.


McKay explained why they couldn't leave them in stasis - the power generating capabilities of the hive ship were wrecked - and unrepairable - and keeping the ex-wraith in stasis was using up too much power. It was not a sustainable, long-term option.

If they had left the Wraith in stasis it would have used up all the available power in the hive ship, leaving them unable to fly it anywhere.. and also unable to keep the stasis pods running.... effectively leaving them with a disabled hive ship orbiting Atlantis full of 200 ex-Wraith needing daily injections to stop them turning back into life-sucking aliens. If they were gonna be in that situation anyway, then better it be on an isolated planet with no stargate than in orbit above the city.

MarshAngel
July 22nd, 2006, 07:19 AM
You know it's strange that I still found this episode somewhat entertaining particularly since reading this thread really reminded me about its failings.

What annoys me about this whole thing is the stupidity of it all. It was one thing to place all the wraith on the planet but then they compounded their problem by placed michael with them --- an enemy they knew they had created again, because he pretty much told them so before they did it.... again. If they think he's too dangerous to let loose, they'd be better of imprisoning him on Atlantis or shooting him as he suggested. When given the opportunity to show why they should mistrust him, they'll try to shoot him anyway, they may as well have the balls to be less hypocritical and get it over with.

It was stupid and risky the first time and it remains so. How could they possibly think they could contain something like this long term? They didn't know how long coming up with a permanent solution was going to take (though given the timing of their magic science, a few hours) and they don't have the resources to keep a society going for any length of time. And of course these particular Wraith, Michael more so than the others, know way too much. The very fact that they didn't have a long term solution and had no idea when they would means they should have let them revert on the hiveship and blow the damn thing up. The only purpose letting them rermain human and alive serves is to assuage the guilt of the Atlantis team.

The obvious solution was to execute them, and it's fascinating that they'd consider this more wrong than what they've already done which only proves nothing Michael has said has gotten through their heads. Given the results of their first wraith experiment, you'd think they'd learned a lesson.

Another thing I was disappointed by was the lack of pressure on Weir. I think they were trying to imply there was some chance her job was at risk; if that was the case their attempt to portray this was an utter failure. In the previous episode I was under the impression that they were going to really list her transgressions and make a real case for her replacement. Instead, they made the IOA out to be the bad guys for even daring to question her willingness to make tough decisions. I thought it was their job to ask questions and examine the facts. It doesn't matter what the ultimate decision is, but they should question the decisions made on Atlantis and doing so shouldn't make them the evil bureaucrats...
Woolsey was useless. And a complete waste of Asgard time and fuel. All he served to confirm is that the Atlantis team are the good guys; they make excellent decisions. By all means continue the slow drain on their collective conscience.

At least Teyla and Weir had things to say and do. They made a much better use of everyone's talents this time around. At least there's that.

GateLadyM
July 22nd, 2006, 07:22 AM
This episode had too many problems as others have mentioned. The writers sorta painted themselves into a corner and didn't know how to get out.

My dumb question (maybe I missed something).

On the Wraith hive ship, where there any other humans cocooned for later feeding, like Ronon and McKay? What happened to these real humans when the gas was introduced? Or was this huge hive out there with no food source? Sure, they were on their way to Earth, but they had to have humans on board for snacks at least. What happens when the retrovirus gas is used on humans? Did we just kill a bunch of our own?

Just wondering.

Fatewarns
July 22nd, 2006, 07:24 AM
Which is why they should have left them in stasis, until a more permanent solution could be found.

That wasn't the only plothole in this episode.

I found myself wondering where they got the nuclear bomb if Daedalus exhausted them all. :S

I guess Atlantis has a stock pile, and I don't imagine the Genii just giving them up.

they fast forward time a bit to bring weir and woosley and get more weapons.

Oka
July 22nd, 2006, 07:31 AM
You know I thought this episode was pretty OK because it was fairly entertaining.

However, it was based on another SCREW UP by the Atlantis team. What happened on the planet shouldn't have been allowed to happen and people need to be held accountable. I can't fathom how Weir is still in command when she keeps screwing up over and over again, she's not a good leader, fire her. Also, I'm tired of the pussyfooting around with the Wraith, KILL THEM when you have the chance. I don't give two ****s if they're in human form or whatever - they aren't human, kill them.

How many soldiers didn't we lose down there on that Godforsaken planet because of their f*** up? All the guards were killed, human lives were lost, not once did I see any regret about that, pathetic. All while Weir was worrying about her own career.

Oh yeah, and they lost yet another ship, how surprising!

Fatewarns
July 22nd, 2006, 07:32 AM
Can't wait to read your review! I give kudos to TPTB for tackling the issue of experimentation, but I don't feel they "quite" hit the bullseye.

This episode had the same feeling as SG1's "Unnatural Selection" (which others have mentioned), but while O'Neill made a gutsy, unpopular decision to have the team turn their backs on a friend, I understood why he did it, and I didn't feel he was being vindictive or mean in any way, he had regret. Same with the episode involving Reese (title forgotten in my feeble brain). I loved Reese and felt her pain and confusion, but Sam told Jack that Reese was losing control and Jack took appropriate action. Again, I felt pain for everyone - it was a sad episode all the way around.
Our humans just seemed to be missing some humanity.

Jack himself states that he wasn't feel sorry for doing neither one. He considers both actions nessacary. And that is part of the reason, why I like him. He simply sees two sides good or bad and has little leeway for in between.

CalmStorm
July 22nd, 2006, 07:35 AM
I don't like how cool everyone is with Woolsey lying to the IOA.

I did not care for this part either. His report would have been just as complete without the need to lie. If he felt that Weir was the best person for the position, he should have been able to defend that position with his reasons as to why he felt that way.

Perhaps the reason Wolsey is so suspicious of everyone and feels that they are holding back and lying is because these are qualities he possesses. If he can manipulate a report, then certainly others would, could and have done the same to further their views.

I think we have seen a huge change in Woolsey in that he now recognizes that the decisions made are not always cut and dry. That those involved with the stargate program are risking their lives on a daily basis and doing the best they can. That those in charge, Weir and Landry, really are the best people for the job.

Melyanna
July 22nd, 2006, 07:42 AM
The episode was a bit hollow for me – well, for the most part. I enjoyed the retrovirus arc when it started, but now it's just become long string of stupid mistakes. It would have been more interesting to me had Michael chosen the drug again and then become convinced, once his memory started to return, that he had been tricked again. I'm just having a hard time believing that Carson would put him through that again.

As much as I like the fact that Woolsey is on Elizabeth's side, him lying to the IOA just seemed like a cheap way to tie up that arc. Surely there was a better way to establish her authority

But the shipper in me went a bit crazy at the "John Sheppard, are you defending my honor?" bit. ;) I love that Elizabeth has loosened up so much, like the prospect of losing her job made her think that she might as well let the facade down. In two episodes, we've seen her angry and annoyed, calm and commanding, overwhelmed and flirty. I think we may have finally seen the real Elizabeth Weir.

I enjoyed the episode, but it's not one I'll watch over and over. (Well, except for a couple scenes. ;) ) Mostly, I'm glad that the show seems to be moving away from the retrovirus arc, because that story line is just getting silly.

Hatusu
July 22nd, 2006, 07:54 AM
Can't wait to read your review! I give kudos to TPTB for tackling the issue of experimentation, but I don't feel they "quite" hit the bullseye.

This episode had the same feeling as SG1's "Unnatural Selection" (which others have mentioned), but while O'Neill made a gutsy, unpopular decision to have the team turn their backs on a friend, I understood why he did it, and I didn't feel he was being vindictive or mean in any way, he had regret. Same with the episode involving Reese (title forgotten in my feeble brain). I loved Reese and felt her pain and confusion, but Sam told Jack that Reese was losing control and Jack took appropriate action. Again, I felt pain for everyone - it was a sad episode all the way around.

In this SGA episode, I only felt emotion for Michael and his Wraith buds for some strange reason. They were now humans, they were confused, frightened, and everyone except for Beckett seemed to be treating them like prisoners instead of the ill, quarantined patients they supposedly were.

In NML, Sheppard and Michael appear to be on very good terms, Michael helps our gang, they all talk and engage with each other. In this episode Michael is suddently treated by our gang like the Queen treated Michael in NML. I guess its okay to be "friends" with Michael when he's saving your life, but then it was all, "we have to get rid of him" when he is no longer needed. It all just seemed to be very cold behavior by our heroes and I didn't really care for it. It would have been better to have our gang face remorse, regret, make mention of "wish we didn't have to do this".

Our humans just seemed to be missing some humanity.
I feel the same way, especially as it concerns Michael, but I understand the other viewpoint. It's a very good discussion to be had, as we can see right here in this thread.

It's very interesting to me that the same 2 writers, Paul Mullie and Joe Mallozzi wrote both episodes this week. One that fell flat in my opinion and one that has sparked a lot of emotion and interesting discussion.

So, FP, why aren't you submitting your opinion as a review? I understand that it's fun to get the instant feedback here.

CalmStorm
July 22nd, 2006, 07:55 AM
I enjoyed the episode, but it's not one I'll watch over and over. (Well, except for a couple scenes. ;) ) Mostly, I'm glad that the show seems to be moving away from the retrovirus arc, because that story line is just getting silly.

I think that this is also their way of moving away from the wraith as the dominant enemy as well. The wraith hive ships that were aware of Atlantis have been destroyed. The wraith ship on its way to the stranded human/wraith colony was destroyed and the colony was destroyed. At least this is the appearance given.

...and of course, now the wraith are engaged in their civil wars and territory wars that they will be less of problem because they will end up killing each other :rolleyes:

I'm really rather glad that this seems to be the case. I don't want the wraith to be the center of most of the stories and would like to see more episodes centered on the cast, other cultures, and most importantly learning more about Atlantis, its technology and the ancients.

I'm actually very optimistic about this season of SGA and SG-1. I've enjoyed episodes from both shows so far. SGA is in its third season, no longer a noobie and no longer with wet feet. This is in essence, the second season of the new SG-1 with all of the cast changes and I like the way it has all melded together.

ShadowMaat
July 22nd, 2006, 07:57 AM
I'm submitting a review, too, but I thought I'd better make it a little more polite and a little less rage-y. That 1000 word limit is really constricting, though. ;)

Hatusu
July 22nd, 2006, 08:01 AM
I'm submitting a review, too, but I thought I'd better make it a little more polite and a little less rage-y. That 1000 word limit is really constricting, though. ;)
Then yours will be more thoughtful than mine. My review was a little over 500 words. :)

I'm looking forward to reading it.

rarocks24
July 22nd, 2006, 08:02 AM
McKay explained why they couldn't leave them in stasis - the power generating capabilities of the hive ship were wrecked - and unrepairable - and keeping the ex-wraith in stasis was using up too much power. It was not a sustainable, long-term option.

Fair enough, but did they really need "awakened"? I mean, they could have set up triage in Atlantis, sedated them (and kept sedating them while injecting the retrovirus), thereby avoiding the whole situation. As for the hive ship's power supplies...eh, Mckay says things are unrepairable and he always finds a way.

padr49904
July 22nd, 2006, 08:08 AM
This episode had too many problems as others have mentioned. The writers sorta painted themselves into a corner and didn't know how to get out.

My dumb question (maybe I missed something).

On the Wraith hive ship, where there any other humans cocooned for later feeding, like Ronon and McKay? What happened to these real humans when the gas was introduced? Or was this huge hive out there with no food source? Sure, they were on their way to Earth, but they had to have humans on board for snacks at least. What happens when the retrovirus gas is used on humans? Did we just kill a bunch of our own?

Just wondering.
The retrovirus doesn't have any effect on humans since its supposed to leave only the human part when its used. In Instinct it wasn't finished so it messed with sheppard we have fine tuned it since then they were probebly just sitting in there watching the wraith turn into humans.

Alipeeps
July 22nd, 2006, 08:28 AM
Fair enough, but did they really need "awakened"? I mean, they could have set up triage in Atlantis, sedated them (and kept sedating them while injecting the retrovirus), thereby avoiding the whole situation. As for the hive ship's power supplies...eh, Mckay says things are unrepairable and he always finds a way.

You think they should have kept 200 human-form Wraith sedated on Atlantis for an indefinite period? Aside from the logistical issues of where to house them, the amount of drugs required, (and other medical resources such as catheters, feeding tubes etc etc) and the medical personnel needed to care for all these comatose patients, do you honestly think that that option would have been easier/less of a security risk than putting them on an isolated planet without a stargate whilst they tried to find a way to make the conversion permanent?

utroligt
July 22nd, 2006, 08:36 AM
I can`t believe some of you buy the storyline in this episode...

I mean only days before the earth was in danger of a wriath attack, and that`s 6 billion people Vs. 200 wraith... Yeah let`s keep them alive on an undefended patch of land somewhere with about 5 guards. Remember we don`t want to interrogate them as wraiths, experiment on them or anything else like that...

And bearing in mind that it didn`t work out only days before (and would potentially cost the lives of all people on the planet earth) let`s not have the place watched, booby-trapped or anything. Just if like the drug doesn`t work (again)

And hey we have a hive ship... which translates into 3 ships... surely that`s a strategic advantage, what about the things we can learn, the technology, the weapons, etc... but let`s just waste it because we´re not in a desperate survival situation and vastly outnumbered...

The important thing to remember is we have the moral and ethically highground here, that`s what will be our first priority in this situation...

And to sum it up... We have The future of the human civilization at stake, 6 billion people + as well as all the other races Vs. 200 Wraith...

That`s a tough (moral) choice... Yeah right...

The "plot" conveniently takes the choices for them in the end so the characters themselves don`t have to take any "dark" choices.

And I could go on about the back to the staus quo every episode seems to end with in Atlantis, but I´ll stop here... As I can`t take Stargate Atlantis seriously anymore after this episode...

rarocks24
July 22nd, 2006, 08:37 AM
Yep.

Obviously they don't have any issue manufacturing drugs (they were producing the retrovirus in the boatloads), An isolated tower in Atlantis set up for the sole purpose of monitoring their unconscious state, and IIRC, so long as they remain human, the drug to put one IN chemical coma is pretty long lasting.

Second, if one did become conscious, it would fit the profile of a viral outbreak a bit more if they had quarantine suits on. Atlantis is more than capable of housing that many occupants.

freyr's mother
July 22nd, 2006, 08:39 AM
The only thing that pissed me off about this episode is that we lost another damn ship! TPTB don't think one every half season is enough. No, they have to do it in succeeding episodes. And we probably didn't even learn anything about the wraith ship in that time. It was what a week?

Gate gal
July 22nd, 2006, 08:46 AM
I thought the episode was great! I love the little bit of crossover with SG1, and Woolsy was likable in this episode. I liked the interaction between the core characters, especially between John and Elizabeth. Dr. Beckett was awesome tonight! I love him more every season! He reminds me of Janet, and I love that! Michael can't be dead, because there is way too much potential for him to make trouble. He'll be back, and I can't wait to see what he does with the nuke! (Season finale?) Excellent start to season three!

Alipeeps
July 22nd, 2006, 08:53 AM
The only thing that pissed me off about this episode is that we lost another damn ship! TPTB don't think one every half season is enough. No, they have to do it in succeeding episodes. And we probably didn't even learn anything about the wraith ship in that time. It was what a week?

We don't know what they learnt about the hive ship in the time they had it. It was definitely more than a week - long enough for Weir to get back to Atlantis... and she said having the Asgard take them would shave "a couple of weeks" off the trip but that still makes it a minimum two week trip. It was a bit confusing how the timeline kept jumping forward now and then in the ep. I did find it hard to keep up with that.

Alipeeps
July 22nd, 2006, 08:54 AM
Yep.

Obviously they don't have any issue manufacturing drugs (they were producing the retrovirus in the boatloads), An isolated tower in Atlantis set up for the sole purpose of monitoring their unconscious state, and IIRC, so long as they remain human, the drug to put one IN chemical coma is pretty long lasting.

Second, if one did become conscious, it would fit the profile of a viral outbreak a bit more if they had quarantine suits on. Atlantis is more than capable of housing that many occupants.

Sorry, There's just too much wrong with that scenario to even go into. Suffice to say, have you any idea how much nursing care is involved in looking after 200+ comatose patients? You can't just stick em in a coma and leave em to it....

Tomcatter
July 22nd, 2006, 08:55 AM
Overall, a pretty good ep. Good character moments, good writing and acting. I loved that the show delved into the grey areas of morality and such, as seen in the last moments when the team decided to kill the former Wraith on the planet. It was imporant for Shep to show some backbone.

Poor Michael! Again with this grey area thing... it's horrible what the team has done to him, twice, but how far is too far when it comes to survival? (That sounded like a bad tagline). I wanted to hate Woolsey but I couldn't find something to dislike about him. I was expecting the writers to take the usual government-worm route with him, but that wasn't the case and I appreciated that. That was a nice scene between him and Caldwell, too.

Shep got to do a little commanding, Weir a little directing (and held on to her job as a result), Teyla a little flying... and McKay and Ronon were their usual (charming) selves. I give it an 8/10.

Mattathias2.0
July 22nd, 2006, 09:17 AM
This episode was quite good.

I can understand why Woolsey let her off the hook. Because he would done the same in her situation had he been in it.

As far as Michael goes... they screwed up again. I think if they just listened to him, and stop thinking of him as a normal Wraith, they could have had an ally, maybe even a spy. I think Michael is most definately their most major threat.

While I was watching, I was thinking it is likely Lt. Ford and Michael could both team because they both can't fit into their perspective worlds as Wraith or human. That is scary.

This episode was very good.

Mattathias

rarocks24
July 22nd, 2006, 09:23 AM
Sorry, There's just too much wrong with that scenario to even go into. Suffice to say, have you any idea how much nursing care is involved in looking after 200+ comatose patients? You can't just stick em in a coma and leave em to it....
I know that. :)

But what's better, leaving them on a planet with four or five guards and a couple decide to stop and see what happens, their memory regains and they contact a nearby hive ship, thereby revealing everything about Atlantis, the location of Earth more than likely (I'm sure those Wraith would have eventually remembered their dream world as well as it's location), and allow Atlantis to be sieged again.

And no, I don't think it's the best idea. The best idea would have to have been leaving them in stasis instead of taking the ship back into hyperspace (the point of which exactly? Particularly when they were low on power to begin with?) So the hive ship's power source was damaged, why not replace them with our own. :rolleyes:

That was a plot hole. If they had enough power to travel through hyperspace, then they sure as hell had enough time to adapt a secondary power source for the people in stasis.

rarocks24
July 22nd, 2006, 09:26 AM
I think Michael is most definately their most major threat.

While there's no indication that Michael isn't dead, I don't think he lived. That hive ship opened fire, even if it's in the general vicinity, the smoke alone would have killed them all. Future episodes don't seem to point this way either, shame.

Quinn Mallory
July 22nd, 2006, 09:51 AM
This episode (and the entire Michael arc) is reminisent of the SG-1 episode "Red Sky"...essentially showing that our heroes are human and subject to making mistakes.

It's an interesting ethical dilemma that the Atlantis team has created. I would've expected Weir to think more about the morality of the issue more had Woosley not been there (and force Weir to be a stronger leader in his presence).

Interesting episode overall but too bad we can't keep the hive ship.

Major Gambit
July 22nd, 2006, 09:57 AM
very good episode, better than the SG1 episode IMO. I didnt like how they left the plot hanging like that. Is micheal dead?! NOoOoOoOoO!



Also, damn, does Woolsey have to be in EVERY episode of SG1 and Atlantis?? The should just put him in the intro!

Southern Red
July 22nd, 2006, 10:01 AM
I think this was overall a good episode, if a bit disjointed timewise. The whole dewraithification arc is disturbing, but their actions are understandable. After all, they are trying to save Earth. The idea that the Wraith can be reasoned with or in any way dealt with in a diplomatic way is laughable. The bits of character development, albeit negative, for Carson were great.

It was refreshing also to see the return of soldier Sheppard. I thought he was strong, showed much better leadership than in S2, and did a good job making on the spot decisions. He may not always have been right, but he did the best he could at the moment with the info he had.

Rodney was nicely toned down and showed true sensitivity when he made the joke to alleviate tension in the meeting. Nice going writers and DH.

Teyla flying the ship actually made sense, sort of. I hope we see more of her getting in touch with her inner Wraith. As always, her scenes with Michael showed real chemistry. Too bad he's more of an enemy than ever. And I do believe he's still alive somewhere. TPTB can't be stupid enough to lose him permanently. Can they?

The scene with the team at the table was a real treat. Finally we get to see that these people really care about each other. And the Sheppard/Weir ship meter was in the red zone. Sorry to those who don't like this pairing, but wow is it looking better and better. The same goes for the office scene which went beyond mere shippiness. Finally, we see that Sheppard's shell can be pierced. All you have to do is threaten someone he cares about. I'm not pretending he wouldn't have defended any other member of his team the same way. Look at all the times he's stood up for Ronon. But Weir's "I've never seen you like this" just says it all. Now let's move forward with his character development and not have him revert to standing around and making wise cracks next week. Please.

bluealien
July 22nd, 2006, 10:08 AM
Well all in all a very disppointing episode and I was actually rooting for the Wraith.

So they betray the guy who saves them without even trying to see if they could use him as an ally.

Michael said he would rather die than be turned back into a human - maybe they should have respected his wishes.

To go down the route of making up some stupid story again to convince the Wraith that they were human was handled even worse than in Michael and the half Wraith/half Humans looked ridiculous.

And why waste time on the whole Woolsey crap - we all knew that nothing was going to happen to Weir.


I love the way everyone panics about another hive ship finding out about Altantis - they are an intelligent race and are not going to believe that Atlantis has been wiped out for ever. Sheesh - with Sheppard and his team visiting different planets each week dont they think that the Wraith WILL find out anyway.

So the same old statement - we have to kill everyone because they will tell the rest of the Wraith that we are alive and will send dozens of Hive Ships to destroy Atlantis - IS GETTING REALLY OLD.!!


If they come across a whole planet of people who know that Atlantis survived and may tell the Wraith - what then will they blow the whole planet up.

Michael and Carson were the stars of this show and I'm hoping that Michael survives and meets up with the team again some day.

rarocks24
July 22nd, 2006, 10:30 AM
I wasn't rooting for the Wraith or Michael, they were going to offer members of their own hive up to another as a sacrifice, for what purpose? If the Queen of their own hive looked down on Michael for being what he became, wouldn't whatever hive queen feel the same? And finally, why was Andee Frizzell credited for this episode if she got killed at the very end of last episode? :confused:

I was mad they did that. I would have liked to have seen her out of makeup.

caty
July 22nd, 2006, 10:35 AM
Very good episode indeed!

I also think the writers got what they wanted...

They triggered some serious morale discussion in here with many people judging the way the team dealt with the humanized Wraith and equally as many supporting the decision.

Anyway, the first two episodes left me really excited about the rest of Season 3, I hope it doesn't go downhill from here...

keshou
July 22nd, 2006, 10:47 AM
Eh.... I wanted more after last's week very good episode (imo).

Still like Michael and hope to see more of him. Good job, Atlantis team, for making him even more of an enemy than he was before (assuming he's still alive). :rolleyes:

I was frankly put off by the inclusion of Woolsey in this episode after just seeing him on SG-1. And he totally flaked out at the end, giving Weir a "thumbs up" by fictionalizing her supposed actions. I don't know - made me dislike both Woolsey and Weir.

And my "ship-o-meter" went off with the Weir and Shep scenes. I'm sorry, I see no romantic chemistry between these two. I've really tried. I truly hope they're not going to ship those two.

McKay and Beckett were good in this episode, I thought. And Teyla got a nice bit flying the ship.

So next week's preview looks like a real change of pace. :eek: :D

smushybird
July 22nd, 2006, 10:51 AM
How many soldiers didn't we lose down there on that Godforsaken planet because of their f*** up? All the guards were killed, human lives were lost, not once did I see any regret about that, pathetic. All while Weir was worrying about her own career.

She did seem more focused on that than anything else throughout the ep.

I didn't see regret or hesitation from most of the characters for their less than noble actions throughout Misbegotten. What they did to Michael was the worst, yet no one seemed to be agonizing over the decision in the least (not even Beckett, not nearly as much as he should have been). I like flawed heroes as much as anyone--but when they don't seem to give a gosh darn when they commit reprehensible acts, they cease to be heroes.

I agree with the posters who found the ep depressing and felt that Sheppard was harsh and dismissive. I felt that was out of character for him, despite his tough soldier side, and I love Shep, so it makes me sad to see him wrongly written. Same goes for Beckett. I kept waiting for him to say, "No, this is wrong. I'm not doing it any more. We have to figure out something else." But he never did, and I felt that was out of character for him, too.

Like Rodney's always pointing out, it's always a violent military solution with these people, including Liz, and it's kind of pathetic that they can't come up with something else, as intelligent as they are.

By the end of the ep, my feeling was if the wraith had slaughtered them, well, they certainly brought it on themselves.

padr49904
July 22nd, 2006, 10:57 AM
Very good episode indeed!

I also think the writers got what they wanted...

They triggered some serious morale discussion in here with many people judging the way the team dealt with the humanized Wraith and equally as many supporting the decision.

Anyway, the first two episodes left me really excited about the rest of Season 3, I hope it doesn't go downhill from here...

It will get better they meet a new enemy that could be the origin of the replicators. And they might even get some zpms out of it and a way to make more but you know something will happen like they run out of materials to make zpms.

Steve_the_Wraith
July 22nd, 2006, 11:01 AM
I can't believe people are so upset about betraying Michael, he eats people, he knows about Atlantis and most importantly he is loyal to no one

He betrayed his hive to the humans because he wanted to live, he has no loyalty to Atlantis, let lose how could they trust him not to betray them too

smushybird
July 22nd, 2006, 11:20 AM
I was frankly put off by the inclusion of Woolsey in this episode after just seeing him on SG-1. And he totally flaked out at the end, giving Weir a "thumbs up" by fictionalizing her supposed actions. I don't know - made me dislike both Woolsey and Weir.

And my "ship-o-meter" went off with the Weir and Shep scenes. I'm sorry, I see no romantic chemistry between these two. I've really tried. I truly hope they're not going to ship those two.

It would be nice to see these people just become friends, like Jack and Sam did, without the sense that the writers are busily trying to get them to a 'shippy emotional place without creating any real bond between them first.
I don't feel chemistry between Liz and John, either. I'm sure it was a nice idea, originally, because they're two very different people and the whole opposites-attract thing is always fun. But these two just aren't clicking somehow. And I can't blame it entirely on the lack of developed friendship. Maybe it's partly that she's supposed to be his boss--that makes it feel a little awkward. But it's more than that. When Ronon and Teyla are together, there's a definite heat there. You can feel it sizzling when they look at each other. And I am not a Ronon/Teyla shipper, so don't get me wrong--I would prefer no 'ships whatsoever on Atlantis. I'm purely a slasher at heart. But I do sense a chemistry between Ronon and Teyla, an instant attraction kind of thing, an unmistakable destined-to-connect, lust-at-first-sight going on. :D

But that same kind of sizzle doesn't happen when Liz and Sheppard are onscreen together. It feels more like an uncomfortable high-schoolish flirtation thing. They're trying too hard and I just feel embarrassed for them.

Klenotka
July 22nd, 2006, 11:21 AM
So next week's preview looks like a real change of pace.

And where did you see it? It´s not in sci-fi site yet.

AGateFan
July 22nd, 2006, 11:24 AM
I can't believe people are so upset about betraying Michael, he eats people, he knows about Atlantis and most importantly he is loyal to no one

He betrayed his hive to the humans because he wanted to live, he has no loyalty to Atlantis, let lose how could they trust him not to betray them too
You know. I wouldnt have minded it so much if they just went and killed him. Its the using biological weapons to turn him into a human against his will and then try to kill him that gets me.

If you cant trust him, then you cant trust him. Kill him, make it quick. Dont freaking toruture him. And he made it quite clear the last time that they did this to him that he felt it was torture. Why pull the legs off the spider before you kill it... just freaking squash it already

The Atlantis team acted all tough in the end like they had the spine to do what had to be done. But really they were forced into it. Really they didnt have the spine to do what had to be done (except Ronan), or they would have killed the wraith to begin with. All they did was cause unnecessary suffering for their own scientific learning. Don't dictators order doctors to do stuff like that?

It was very sad and made me lose interest in the episode. I have no desire to watch someone scrw someone else over, even a bad person. Seeing a bad person getting their just earned deserts is one thing but just scrwin them for no reason makes you as bad as them. Just be honest about what has to be done. Be a man and tell your enemy to their face what is what. The simpering whimps of Atlantis didnt even tell Michael to his face that they were going to change him again they could have at least done that.

expendable_crewman
July 22nd, 2006, 11:27 AM
A destructive single-minded foe suddenly takes on human aspects and begins to question existance and who has right to it and in what form.

Unfortunately accepting that those questions are valid does not make them easier to answer. The Wraith and Michael have not fundamentally changed to the point where humans and they each can go their own way.

Also, the Wraith until this arc were almost an indifferent enemy. They wanted to eat humans, yes, but there was nothing personal about it. That to me was what made the Genii a much more compelling foe, because there was real animosity there. The writers have now set it up where there are Wraith with a VERY personal vendetta against the humans of Atlantis, and moreover, done so by giving them a REAL reason for that animosity with a very distinctive figurehead that the viewers alredy have some sympathy for. Dark stuff to be sure.

I'm a little uneasy about that because it's not a comfortable position to be in. To me it seems that the writers have taken a gamble that the viewers are ready and able to handle a grittier storyline where grey areas abound and lines are fuzzy.That's it in a nutshell. That's what I was trying to say. You said it better.

Another thought that sticks ... Michael, as he's getting back his memories, has twice connected deeply with some real, down-to-earth indignation. I mean, he's furious.

With all the noise he's making, it's very easy to see the view from his side of the glass. You almost -- almost -- forget that as confused, eager retro-Michael wakes into understanding how he was wronged, he must also remember what the Wraith have done to humans. In fact, he does remember. And if anyone thinks the retrovirus is the end-all of evil, from Michae's POV, re-watch NML. Gassing others for survival is well within his moral parameters. Gassing his former crew without hesitation ... was priceless, like condemning the weaker, er, "human" Wraith (also crew) for a ticket off a gate-less planet.

This story is only gray because the humans have to stumble through their own muck to solve a problem that the Wraith could mop up in thirty seconds. (Again, just watch Michael. If you think Sheppard condemned the Lothlorien Elf-lookalikes fast, go back and use a stopwatch on Michael.)

BTW, I am so looking forward to seeing Michael again ... And not only because I think he has that nuke.

Oh, and Beckett needs a hug.

RoryJ
July 22nd, 2006, 11:33 AM
I can't believe people are so upset about betraying Michael, he eats people, he knows about Atlantis and most importantly he is loyal to no one

He betrayed his hive to the humans because he wanted to live, he has no loyalty to Atlantis, let lose how could they trust him not to betray them too

I agree. Yes, Michael helped the team out in NML. But you know what? He also helped the Wraith queen out in Allies. He's loyal to whoever will take him in, and unfortunately no side is willing to do that. It's tragic and it's our fault. I accept that. But they really should have just let Ronon kill him. It was his wish and it was the smartest thing to do. But the expedition can't just let go, which is something they need to learn to do.

As for the whole "put the Wraith in stasis" discussion: Are you kidding me? Just. Kill. Them. :o I'm sorry, but they are not human. It's morally wrong to keep them alive and play with their minds moreso than it is to just eliminate an enemy. Gah!

As for Weir. Well, with Woolsey hanging around and with no subspace contact with Sheppard as to what was happening on the planet, she kind of didn't have anything else to do at the moment than worry about her job. And, I'm sorry to all the dedicated Weir haters, but she did take responsibility for her actions in NML. She said that the decision made was her decision and no one else's (though the Pentagon encouraged it). And she said the same thing to Carson in "Michael". Hindsight bias is a powerful thing; I think trying to find a way to "cure" the enemy sounded very convincing at the time. Where the bad decision was made was when they kept Michael on Atlantis the first time. That was the really dumb move.

And I don't think Carson was spineless. He didn't give away the information on the nuke intentionally. Michael pulled the same mind game trick on him that he pulled on Teyla, and no one said she was spineless for that. And I just don't think Carson was ready to give up this experiment. He seems like he really thought he can find away to make it work. He was so invested in the project and spent so many hours enhancing the retrovirus that it was probably hard to just give up and say "Nope, I'm done".

And on the shippy side of things; to each his/her own.:) I loved the Sparky scenes, but I'll keep it in the Sparky thread.

Sela
July 22nd, 2006, 11:33 AM
SGA was interesting on two fronts for me: the Michael/Wraith aspect and the "Sparky" (Shep/Weir) aspect.

I have to say honestly that I'm starting to side with Michael about the way they've been treating him. They could have turned him into an ally over time, but not only did they lock him up (which I agree with from a security stand point) but they shot him and re-injected him against his will with the retrovirus. To me there is a very disturbing trend going on here with the SGA storyline that I really don't like. Our heroes are becoming less heroic and much less ethical as the time goes on. I'm not happy at all about that. Is this the way we treat a prisoner of war? It raises the hackles on the back of my neck thinking about the ease with which they blasted the new humans away. With the exception of Carson no-one else really had a problem with it. Also, I can see a major break coming between Carson and the Atlantis leadership regarding this Wraith/Human thing. He's quickly coming to the end of his rope over this situation. When the blowup comes, I'll be siding with Carson. :)

The Sparky aspect was a bit surprising to me as I thought Elizabeth would have been a bit more subtle regarding her flirting with John. She needs to dial it down a bit. She was a bit too obvious with the soulful look across the table. Shep does report to her and she needs to step carefully. Not because he'll feel sexually harassed, but because it will make her a target to the IOC (rightfully so) and to other unfriendly elements that may yet be lurking in the expeditionary force. I chalk it up to her being tired and under a lot of stress. :P

Also, you would think Elizabeth would be the type woman who would have a little more hesitation about chasing after a man who chases after every skirt in the known two galaxies. She's a classy quality lady. Why settle the local hound dog? Is the sticky-up hair that alluring? :D She could do much better. *cough*caldwell*cough*

ShadowMaat
July 22nd, 2006, 11:40 AM
It will get better they meet a new enemy that could be the origin of the replicators. And they might even get some zpms out of it and a way to make more but you know something will happen like they run out of materials to make zpms.
You may wish to refresh your knowledge of the use of spoiler tags, pad. I've taken the liberty of adding them here.

Dropping huge horrible spoilers about upcoming episodes is a bit of a no-no.

Sela
July 22nd, 2006, 11:41 AM
I don't like how cool everyone is with Woolsey lying to the IOA.
Me either. Elizabeth surprised me when she allowed him to keep that in the report. I lost a bit of respect for her regarding that. I thought she was above that sort of thing judging from her taking the moral high ground in the previous episode when they called her on the carpet.

Verity5
July 22nd, 2006, 11:46 AM
This season is off to a much better start, after the disappointment of last season and the really weak cliffhanger that was Allies.

Someone has finally realized that they need to show that these characters, while having human failings, actually respect and care for each other. I do not think that viewers identify much with people who seem totally disonnected from each other, almost parodies of themselves.

I think that any of them developing relationships with each other is too early in what will hopefully be a run of at least 2-4 more seasons. I, of course, would prefer longer. By the way, as spectacular as the special effects are, and they really are, situational and character scripts are still much appreciated,too. Are there not more things to be found on both Atlantis and the mainland? Don't forget the Athosians.

While I am sure that each and every fan might make different choices for every nuance of every episode, that is not the attitude that many of them (and I enclude myself) take when going to see a movie, for example. We all seem to be backseat "writers". Of course, that also shows the depth of commitment that this show has generated in its fans. (I would have played the Michael storyline without re-drugging him, showed remorse over the loss of the soldiers on the planet, tried telling the drugged wraith the Truth (!) and on and on, etc.)

Speaking only for me, I say KUDOS to Mssrs. Wright and Cooper, et. al.

Good start to what I hope is a tremendously successful season.

V5

mckaychick
July 22nd, 2006, 11:54 AM
To me, this episode wasnt as explosive that i thought it should be with it being a 3 parter. I did think it was a good episode, but i thought there should have beeen alittle more action or something to make it a wow part 3.

bluealien
July 22nd, 2006, 12:03 PM
The problem is I'm starting to feel empathy for the Wraith and for Michael and thats not good.

I should be seeing them as evil life sucking monsters who deserve to be exterminated. But they seem to have lost there baddassness (new word) and I felt that Michael came across as having more feelings and compassion than anyone on the Atlantis team. He certaintly isn't the one dementional "evil" Wraith we have previously seen.

Why not try and have Michael as an ally - he could have been the turning point in actually defeating the Wraith or coming up with some sort of compromise to their situation. How are they ever going to defeat the Wraith if they don't eventually come up with some sort of Alliance with them. How long will the Wraith keep sending Hive ships and how long can Atlantis keep destroying them. As to how they could feed Michael - well he will have to live off the local life stock for a while - they did feed Steve a wee mouse.

I don't really see the Wraith has a huge threat to Earth anyway - a planet with 60 billion people cannot destroy a few wraith ships. What about all our nukes and weapons of mass destruction. The Hive Ship seem to disintigrate after a few rounds of machine gun fire anyway - my son could take one down from my back yard with his bee-bee gun.

SG1Atlantis
July 22nd, 2006, 12:03 PM
Not a bad ep IMO, but seriously, how many times can these guys get tricked and then yet still be surprised. Don't get me wrong I liked the episode but the team has been tricked by the Genii and the wraith more times than i can count. I mean did they really think that they could leave a whole group of de-wraithed ppl on a planet and everything would go perfectly. I mean i guess thats why Shep had a fail safe but still. I agree that they could have had more action. They did the same thing w/Sg-1, they build up the problem and then try and solve it w/in the last ten mins and we dont get to see it.

The stoyline was good, but they need to stop being so gullible and trusting to everyone they meet.

areghnatha
July 22nd, 2006, 12:06 PM
At least I have seen this episode... and I was really disappointed.

Poor Michael... :(
Now they did it again to him; transfer him into human against his will. If he survived this episode, Atlantis will face a real angry enemy. Why not accepting his wishes and shot him? I think that this would have been more humanic than transferring him into a human again. He saved the ashes of everybody on the Daedalus and this is the way how the humans say "thanks"? Am I the only person who feels uncomfortable with that?
He could have been such a good ally... but now...

Back to the hive... Only 200 Wraith on such a big ship? I cannot believe that!
And one episode after they get the opportunity to study Hive-Technology the ship is destroyed... Perfect! If they go on this way, they will not learn anything.

In the camp the people were treated like prisoners and not like people whose have got health problems. Beckett knew from Michael, that he dreamed about the Wraith while he was sleeping and that he had the feeling that something was wrong.
And now they guard 200 transformed Ex-Wraith with only 4 or 5 soldiers? How stupid!
All are afraid that these humanic Wraith could tell other Wraith that Atlantis still exist.
Who knows? Maybe the other Wraith already know about Atlantis? I do not know in which episode, but it must have been in the first season, Bob or Steve told them that the other Wraith will know what they have done to him. IMO they have great telepathic abilities. So it could have happen that the Wraith Queen shared the information about Atlantis with others (Allies, NML).
The "prisoners" including Michael were able to tell other Wraith where they are and that they need help. Why not giving the Wraith at first the information that Atlantis still exists? Ok, we do not know that, but if I were in Michaels situation, that fact would be the first thing I tell the Hive which is heading for the planet.

Last point: I begin to hate the team for what they are doing: At first they are stealing the Wraith their identity in transforming them into humans (with loss of their memory of what happened before the first injection). Then they are not capable in telling them a story which could fit. In the end they decide to destroy these 200 lives without a blink of an eye (besides of Rodney and Carson), because they do not accept the transferred people as humans.

What is wrong in being a Wraith? They only want to survive, that is why they feed upon humans. What do the humans do? Experimenting with living, FEELING creatures, not to change their way of eating (why not find a way that Wraith could eat human meals?), but to change their whole being against their will?
The more our “heroes” act this way, the more I feel ally with the Wraith…

I hope that some of the Wraith survived on the planet and were saved by the other Hive. I really would like to see Michael again :D

Pocus
July 22nd, 2006, 12:13 PM
I really liked this episode. It was full of debating possibilities as we have seen throughout this thread.

My favorite thing was Michael. I believe he has a right to feel betrayed by the leadership of Atlantis. Yes, he did help Sheppard in NML, but that was to save his own skin. He obviously did not expect to be welcomed back to Atlantis with open arms, but since they started the whole thing with their experiment, I think he at least expected less of a prison atmosphere. Of course they could have put him in Steve's cell, but they put him in a guest room with guards and, it seemed to me, just left him there.

I really liked the scene with Michael and Teyla. He let his anger show and she tried very hard to be the voice of reason. He is an outcast in both societies, human and wraith. He is who he is by having the memories of his life. By taking the retrovirus again and losing all those memories, Michael will die and a new persona evolve. You could see it in Teyla's eyes that she knew he was right, but what other choice could she offer him.

I was a little disappointed that there was no face to face meeting between Weir and Michael. She keeps taking responsibility for the decision to perform the experiment. She admitted to a few people that she made mistakes. I would have liked to see her look one of her mistakes in the eye. Not to apologize. Not to explain herself or her actions. I would have liked to see her say "Well this is what it is. What's done is done. How do we handle things now?" Maybe they could have come up with some mutually beneficial arrangement. Maybe it would have been best to just let Ronan shoot him.

anaM
July 22nd, 2006, 12:13 PM
I think it was a good episode and a good conclusion - for the time being anyway- to the subject of the retrovirous. I'm sure the writers could very well give an easy and mellow solution and they have my respect that they didn't. They pursued the matter to it's dark ending and every body has a part at the guilt, not for the 200 wraith that might or might not have been killed, but for taking rather superficially dubious moral decisions.
The scenes in the hive ship, when sheppard ordered the planet hit and everybody else was shocked were excelent, they had pushed their luck too hard and it turned around. And i think that Sheppard made the right decision in this case.

bluealien
July 22nd, 2006, 12:21 PM
At least I have seen this episode... and I was really disappointed.


And now they guard 200 transformed Ex-Wraith with only 4 or 5 soldiers? How stupid!

Exactly - how unbelievably stupid.

They couldn't contain Michael with the whole Atlantis security team and they only leave about 4/5 marines to guard 200 of them.

Oka
July 22nd, 2006, 12:38 PM
Exactly - how unbelievably stupid.

They couldn't contain Michael with the whole Atlantis security team and they only leave about 4/5 marines to guard 200 of them.

I agree, really stupid. Fact is, 200 of those wraiths died, the entire security team was wiped out, the mission was a complete and utter FAILURE, someone should be held accountable. Where are the official inquiries, where are the court-martials? I just can't take this show seriously if they keep doing things like this, it's not like it's the first time.

I have no sympathy for the wraith by the way, they deserve to be wiped out for the things they have done. One human life is worth more than one billion wraith lives, so please people, stop feeling sorry for those parasites =)

CalmStorm
July 22nd, 2006, 12:48 PM
I agree, really stupid. Fact is, 200 of those wraiths died, the entire security team was wiped out, the mission was a complete and utter FAILURE, someone should be held accountable.

It was not a complete and utter failure. The team now knows that the wraith can communicate without technology over great distances when a few are grouped togther and focusing.

areghnatha
July 22nd, 2006, 01:09 PM
I have no sympathy for the wraith by the way, they deserve to be wiped out for the things they have done. One human life is worth more than one billion wraith lives, so please people, stop feeling sorry for those parasites =)

I will never stop feeling sorry for the Wraith. Humans are not better than the Wraith are. Both sides just do everything what they think is necessary in order to survive.
It is not the Wraith´s fault that they are only able to consume humans as food. It was a mood of nature that they became that, what they now are...

Heaven
July 22nd, 2006, 01:13 PM
omg that was so.. DARK!!
what happened to the fun show I loved so much?

the story was done well but I just can't enjoy the show like this
I wish they get back to more pleasant storylines
seriously it felt like the spirit of the show is falling apart!

Alipeeps
July 22nd, 2006, 01:34 PM
I will never stop feeling sorry for the Wraith. Humans are not better than the Wraith are. Both sides just do everything what they think is necessary in order to survive.
It is not the Wraith´s fault that they are only able to consume humans as food. It was a mood of nature that they became that, what they now are...

So you feel sorry for the Wraith because it's not their fault they evolved to eat humans? Let me ask you this then - if there were you and a Wraith locked in a room together and you were the only source of food for the Wraith, would you let it just kill you cos it's not its fault and you feel sorry for it? Or would you fight to survive?

Yes the Wraith eat humans because they need to to survive but that doesn't mean I feel sorry for them. It has also been shown that they take pleasure in the killing - which makes them even less sympathetic - and of course they are also technologically advanced and could conceivably have researched a different way to survive - after all, the Wraith scientist in The Gift was researching ways to make humans more compatible as a food source - so why could they not do similar research on other animals etc? Because they don't want to. The Wraith like eating humans, they feel no remorse or guilt over the millions of lives they take.

I don't feel sorry for them at all.

Auralis
July 22nd, 2006, 01:50 PM
Well,

when will someone start to act inteligent again around atlantis?
The whole retrovirus stuff was stupid from the beginning, but now its beyond rediculus. And turning michel a second time, chalk that up for accute braindead as well. There he is an axctually wants to help and they betray him.
God and wolsey is covering for weir? gah, unless he wants to blackmail her with that its another stupid stunt to keep a completly incompetent leader because the actors contract sais she has so many season left ...
disguesting.

AutumnDream
July 22nd, 2006, 01:53 PM
omg that was so.. DARK!!
what happened to the fun show I loved so much?

the story was done well but I just can't enjoy the show like this
I wish they get back to more pleasant storylines
seriously it felt like the spirit of the show is falling apart!

So episodes like Poisoning the Well, The Eye, The Defiant One, The Gift, and Hotzone were pleasant storylines? ^_^

Darkness = good. It means that maybe... just maybe, they won't be afraid to make some long-term storyline arcs. For instance, I'd have had them can Weir. She would have remained at Atlantis as some mock civilian advisor to the military. Some unimportant position dressed up with a fancy title. She'd watch the way Atlantis is being run under the new military dictatorship. Tensions between the military men following the new leader and the "old school" team surrounding Liz and Shep grow, creating rifts and a nearly factionized Atlantis. Interesting and likable characters pop up on the opposing side, making you care about it. Somewhere in this, something happens to their ZPM and they're cut off from Earth. Earth sends no ships even after months and nobody knows why. After about half a season of developing this, some horrific thing happens and wipes out much of the Atlantis military personal in one shot. Preferably because of a stupid decision someone made. John and Liz wrestle control from the remaining followers and reinstate themselves at the leaders of the city. Blah blah blah. You get the idea. Cool stuff happening over a long period of time never happens in bright cheery shows. :<

bluealien
July 22nd, 2006, 02:02 PM
I don't feel sorry for the Wraith but I do feel empathy for them. They kill to survive but we also kill to survive. As to them enjoying the kill well again you could say that some humans equally enjoy killling the Wraith.

The difference is how far would we go to survive. How much of our humanity do we sacrifice to survive. Some seem to think that because the Wraith are not human that no moral code or ethics should be applied at all. We should do whatever it takes and use any means necessary to destroy them. What does that make us - if we survive by these means are we any better than the Wraith. How can we call them evil monsters when we are doing the same.

An enemy is an enemy - what difference does it make who they are and where the war is taking place. The Wraith are more than the evil one dementional species that have been portrayed earlier and I hope to see more of Michael who is giving us a wonderful insight into them. Maybe we have only seen the warrior Wraith up until now and who knows what other traits they possess. Even if Michael helped Sheppard because he wanted to live I still felt that if given the opportunity by Sheppard or Weir he could have been a major ally for them.

areghnatha
July 22nd, 2006, 02:13 PM
So you feel sorry for the Wraith because it's not their fault they evolved to eat humans? Let me ask you this then - if there were you and a Wraith locked in a room together and you were the only source of food for the Wraith, would you let it just kill you cos it's not its fault and you feel sorry for it? Or would you fight to survive?


Good question... But THAT is not the same situation. The Atlantis team fights the Wraith with ABC-Weapons (the retrovirus is one) and weapons of mass destruction, but not face to face.
If I would be locked with a Wraith in a room together I would fight... and loose (because I am not a sportsman), but I would do my verry best to survive. The point is, that I respect the Wraith as a living being, who has also got the right to live.

rarocks24
July 22nd, 2006, 02:17 PM
Good question... But THAT is not the same situation. The Atlantis team fights the Wraith with ABC-Weapons (the retrovirus is one) and weapons of mass destruction, but not face to face.
If I would be locked with a Wraith in a room together I would fight... and loose (because I am not a sportsman), but I would do my verry best to survive. The point is, that I respect the Wraith as a living being, who has also got the right to live.
I'm sure they feel the same way about you. It's the nature of the game, really. They were never violating any Wraith's right to live, they were violating the Wraith's capability of feeding on them, BIG difference.

Easter Lily
July 22nd, 2006, 02:18 PM
While I agree with Michael's original assessment of himself, I can't say I have no real sympathy for his position. Ultimately, he's still a wraith... he still needs to feed on humans. Ultimately, I can't see him hanging around Atlantis, ally or no ally. I think the reaction on this thread at least proves one thing... it's fun wrestling with human compassion and moral responsibility.

I liked this episode for what it tried to do. It didn't reach the heights of NML but I'd rather have episodes like this than The Tower any time. I'd rather we debate the moral dubiousness of the story and the characters than have yet another angry match between anti-Kirkers and non-anti-Kirkers. That cadaverous horse has been flogged once too many times already.

I think the title of this episode is highly appropriate in that it conveys the plight of the converted Wraith. I suppose they look rather attractive as Connor Trineer (or the morose Latham) and can make impassioned speeches and appeal to the human moral sensibility. It's possible for them to push that button for the audience because we can understand Michael's arguments as one who has been "misbegotten". If roles should be reversed, I doubt we would elicit the same sympathy from our Wraith captors.
The manipulation of the POV follows on from Michael but now less convincing because our team has experienced betrayal. In Allies, the team was accused of being too trusting, now the team is being accused of being too ruthless. I suppose it was always a no-win situation any way it went. My take is that the expedition went for the soft option initially but Michael tried to force their hand, knowing that he/the rest of the converted Wraith would never be accepted anywhere they went.

I'm enjoying the blame game that we're playing here. I suppose Beckett should get some of the blame for creating the serum because maybe he thought it was a great idea to change the Wraith rather than to kill them and Weir for agreeing with him. And of course, Sheppard for going along with it. Personally, I blame the Ancients for everything... for making it all happen and then for taking off when things got too hot. Well, perhaps the moral of the lesson is that if the Ancients were unable to defeat the Wraith, perhaps us lesser beings should not feel that we should attempt to take matters into our own hands and let sleeping dogs lie.

PG15
July 22nd, 2006, 03:19 PM
Wow, Season 3 is off to a GREAT start, better than Season 1 or Season 2.

There really weren't many AWESOME!!11 moments like in NML per se, but rather the entire episode had me on the edge of my seat.

Ok, some points:

I don't know if it's because I miss the characters, or what, but the actors really seem to be comfortable with their roles. Even if TPTB haven't reveal their backstories just yet, it feels like I've known them all their lives, like they've deepened somehow. It's just a feeling. Take for example Caldwell's little scene with Woolsey, I've never seen him like that before. Very well done.

More Trip!! :D

There were some twists I really didn't see coming, like when Laethon(sp?) died, or what happened at the end. I didn't see the nuke coming either, I guess I was just too immersed in the episode.

Great showcase for Beckett, and I think Michael got the info about the nuke from him; that was his purpose.

Great SFX of the hive ship.

Woolsey is wonderful as always.

Anyway, I think this is one of the best Mallozzi-Mullie scripts in recent years, and it has definately redeemed them from "The Tower". ;)

Score: 9

PG15
July 22nd, 2006, 03:34 PM
Well, I just read the thread...and boy, I disagree so much it's not funny.

THEY ARE WRAITH!!! They kill us without remorse, and worst of all, they won't change. It's literally us or them. And, while this may sound selfish, I'd rather it be us who live to see another day.

What Shep did was necessary. If he didn't, Atlantis would've been attacked, and, if fallen, Earth would've been attacked, and that'll be the end of the human race across our entire GALAXY!

Is that enoughg incentive to kill 200 Wraith? I think it is. Is it ethical? That's up to the beholder.


Is it just me but can what we did to those Wraith be called genocide?

Nope.

Remember we nuked about 4 hives worth of Wraith in Siege Part 3.

cafine_us
July 22nd, 2006, 03:44 PM
I think the moral dilemma that arises when the Wraith are forced into human form is somewhat contrived. Just because our enemy looks like us does not make him any less of our enemy. These Wraith still have violent tendencies and still have every potential to revert back to their deadly form. The Wraith and the humans are at war. In war, both parties kill each other when they get the chance, especially when one party has information that could put the entire opposing force at risk.

That said, I do think at least one of the Wraith on the planet survived and will prove to create more problems.

PG15
July 22nd, 2006, 03:55 PM
I agree, really stupid. Fact is, 200 of those wraiths died, the entire security team was wiped out, the mission was a complete and utter FAILURE, someone should be held accountable.

Yeah, the Wraith.

Orion's Star
July 22nd, 2006, 04:09 PM
Yeah, the Wraith.
Or, you know, the ones really responsible: Weir and Sheppard. But it's okay, heroes always get a free pass.

PG15
July 22nd, 2006, 04:14 PM
Considering what choices they had, I wouldn't be so sure.

Oka
July 22nd, 2006, 04:15 PM
Yeah, the Wraith.
Definitely. We're at war with the wraith - we know that they will kill us when they get the chance. However, that doesn't mean that the people who screw up completely, put our marines/soldiers in harmsway and let them die for nothing shouldn't be held accountable.

Killing wraiths isn't genocide, it's self-defense.

themeangel
July 22nd, 2006, 04:43 PM
I see some people are really split in there feeling about What "Team Atlantis"
did to Micheal and the Wraith.
I think possibly some of the people complaining about the team Morals.
May like there show more like SG1.
As some people have already stated, it's a different show. And there were some dark episodes. But allot of the time (especialy in the Early years) the team went through the gate. helped the people, Played the hero's, fought the bad guy and saved the day.
Now Atlantis is a new show, and it seems there taking a different route possibly and show there team as "More Human"
Weir, and Group are "Human"
They are fighting a Group of Aliens who have 2 goals.
Suck the life out of millions of people in the Pegasus Galaxy and then find there way into our galaxy and Suck the life out of Billions of humans here on earth..
The team has witnessed there destruction for 2 years. Seen how many Worlds
and people devasted and completly destroyed by these aliens.
So When Beckett came up with this "Experiment"
Should they have taken the "Moral Highroad"
and not turned Michael.?
The characters are supposed to be Us! humans from various nations in our time. If an alien fell to earth right now What would America. England, Canada, or any industrialized Nation do with him?
(First he would have a hard time getting here, as the minute our radar in any nation spotted his ship we would "Nuke" it out of the sky. No questions asked.
But if he did get here, you think we would not lock him up. Poke, Prod, Experiment & Disect him untill hell froze over??
As for the turning Michael human Again. After "He saved us"
Did he Really? Well yes and no!
The first time Michael turned back to Wraith, He went back to them. And turned over the information to the Queen that Atlantis still stood, they letting the Queen hatch the plot to make the phony aliance and gain Earth location.
He did not try and "Help us" Untill the Wraith Queen made it clear to him he was not Welcome among the Wrath anymore. So he helped us, to help himself.
And Should we have let him go for that. to feed on more humans. and make new alliances with the other Warring Queen Wrath telling them Atlantis Was still around.
Maybe they should have just killed him and the Other
"Human" Wrath outright. Because after all. These Wrath all murdered Human's at one time or another. But Weir, and company did have Moral's and did see there condition was due to there experimant. They were at least trying in some way to give them a chance at survival, however slim that chance was.
I really Don't see Atlantis as "Bad" or really Stupid. They are humans putting there lives on the line everyday, trying to fight a Life Threatning foe.
Would any of us be able to do there job?

MmmCesium
July 22nd, 2006, 04:44 PM
This episode had a great idea, but it felt like completely different writers wrote it. Teyla seemed the closest to herself (which there's not much of to stray from). Caldwell was also pretty good in this respect, but everyone else was like a new character. There was just too much that changed in this episode. You can change either the characters or the setting, but you can't do both.

It also appeared squashed. When the third act ended, I was asking myself how everything could be resolved in ~eight minutes. That could have taken at least an entire act to do and then it wouldn't have felt so cramped. It probably could have fit a four-parter. Spoiler for The Eye: The Eye was originally under time, so the writers went back and added some scenes of the rescue team approaching in more detail. For me, those added scenes (the armory and the first power station being the wrong one, for example) was what really sold this episode as one of, if not the, best in Altantis. If the first power station would have been the right one, the episode would have been cheese and the setup ruined, much like this one did. The writers probably could have written the retrovirus part a lot better if they had about a half hour more to do it.

The Woolsey thing was kind of dumb. The writers could have set it up where Woolsey only made one final report at the end of his stay. Then, near the end of Woolsey's stay, Weir could have made a great decision nobody else had thought of, therefore giving a reason for the IOA to recommend her keeping her spot. This might happen anyway.

That was a lot for two cents.

O'Neil
July 22nd, 2006, 04:51 PM
Well, once again the writers and producers have proven that the SGA team cannot keep anything for more than a few days without it being destroyed. And dont even get me started on the wraith retrovirus not working, and then the new ex-wraiths turning back, and taking over. I saw that one coming years ago......

I think Weir must be retarded. In the very first episode, (Rising), she said that everyone going on this expedition was chosen because they were the brightest and smartest in their fields.... I guess they forgot to choose people from the "common sense" field.

Cory Holmes
July 22nd, 2006, 05:29 PM
This episode, while not the greatest in the world (or even SGA as a series) has highlighted for me the reason why I do so love this show: the main characters do not fit into nice, neat, little cliched pidgeonholes.

Caldwell. So easy to assume he's a by-the-book military blowhard who wants Sheppard's job (that was originally to be his). And yet, his actions have consistantly proven otherwise. He calls Sheppard by his proper rank (if he were the stereotype, he'd always be calling Sheppard "Major"), even correcting McKay on that once or twice. And here, he patently refuses to help Woolsey skewer Weir, which the cliche says he should.

Sheppard. The cliche is that he'd make some speech or some last-second decision that would solve the problem on the planet and save everyone, dewraithified Wraith included (as the much-referenced Kirk would have). And yet, his actions have proven that he's capable of admitting defeat and then taking the next most appropriate action to fix the problem (take off and nuke 'em from orbit. It's the only way to be sure.)

McKay. The stereotype is for him to be a totally self-absorbed egomaniac. And yet, he's proven time and again that there's more to the man than just that surface veneer. Stepping in front of a gun for Weir, deliberatly making a joke to ease the tension, etc.

Woolsey. So easy to assume that he's "the beaurocratic bad guy" who is only out to skewer Weir. And yet, he's proven that he's a straight shooter who is only interesting in doing what's best (see Prototype and Heros II for proof of this) and he's capable of reading between the lines and seeing what's really going on. So many times the cliche is for a man in his position to be totally blind, it's refreshing to see someone who isn't. Though this does bring up the idea that maybe he'll call Weir for a favour one day...


Atlantis is proving that the Pegasus Galaxy is a place where morals need to be flexable in order to survive against enemies such as the Wraith, the Genii, the Menarians. It's a place where pragmatism must take precidence over "the best choice". This isn't SG-1 where the bad guys are bad because they choose to be, thereby allowing for our heros to take the moral highground easily. Moral highground doesn't exist in Pegasus, survival does.

In this thread, a lot of people have wondered why the Wraith just weren't left in stasis or turned into WraithBeam Data. How is burying your head in the sand an actual solution? Close your eyes and clap your hands over your ears and pretend that the problem will go away on its own? I'd be far more disappointed in Atlantis as a show if they took that route instead of trying to deal with the consequences.

And I'm glad that our heros are making bad choices. Their some of the most human and realistic characters on TV today. I'd like a show of hands of people reading this thread who have never made a bad choice in their lives.



ps: McWeir smile all the way ;)

utroligt
July 22nd, 2006, 05:52 PM
Seriously people

The whole premise of these 3 episodes is to stop the wraith reaching the earth and secondly to prevent the spread of information about the status of Atlantis. (that it is not destroyed)

To do this Weaver gambles everything The Deadalus, The Orion etc... To stop them at all costs...

This situation arose from the failed experiment on Michael. Here their first mistake is to not guard him properly and he gets away. Their next mistake is to trust Michael and his queen which puts everything in jeopardy. Then they correct these mistakes by destroying one hiveship and cribling the second one, at the cost of The Orion...

This leaves them with Michael, a crippled hive ship and about 200 wraiths in human form and the secret of atlantis. And then the writers expect me to believe that the Atlantis team will risk everything for the sake of 200 humanised wraith after they were nearly destroyed in (space) battle with them, eaten by wraiths, their former trackrecord of the "vaccine" tests, they have just slaughtered several thousand wraiths with the gas vaccine (hey no problem), are willing to sacrifice everything to stop the the wraith at all costs, etc...

In other words they have just escaped complete disaster and hours later they are wiiling to risk everything they have achieved... because it`s the right/moral thing to do and by doing the exact same mistakes that just got them in trouble in the first place.

Ohh and I almost forgot, they wake all the human wraiths, they place them in an open environment with almost no guards or security, they expect them to administer the vaccine themselves despite the fact that they need it every 24 hours etc... And these "patients" are always only hours away from becomming lethal enemies with vital information on Atlantis and the general direction of earth.

Come on, now... That`s not acting like humans, that`s acting like muppets or lemmings... That makes absolutely no sense to gamble the future of Atlantis and earth on "a work in progress vaccine" and good faith that have already failed before... That`s totally absurd given the circumstances.

IMHO

smushybird
July 22nd, 2006, 06:50 PM
So episodes like Poisoning the Well, The Eye, The Defiant One, The Gift, and Hotzone were pleasant storylines? ^_^

Darkness = good. It means that maybe... just maybe, they won't be afraid to make some long-term storyline arcs. For instance, I'd have had them can Weir. She would have remained at Atlantis as some mock civilian advisor to the military. Some unimportant position dressed up with a fancy title. She'd watch the way Atlantis is being run under the new military dictatorship. Tensions between the military men following the new leader and the "old school" team surrounding Liz and Shep grow, creating rifts and a nearly factionized Atlantis. Interesting and likable characters pop up on the opposing side, making you care about it. Somewhere in this, something happens to their ZPM and they're cut off from Earth. Earth sends no ships even after months and nobody knows why. After about half a season of developing this, some horrific thing happens and wipes out much of the Atlantis military personal in one shot. Preferably because of a stupid decision someone made. John and Liz wrestle control from the remaining followers and reinstate themselves at the leaders of the city. Blah blah blah. You get the idea. Cool stuff happening over a long period of time never happens in bright cheery shows. :<

Wow. Now there, see--interesting, creative, daring, intriguing, and doesn't feel repetitive, like this ongoing battle with the wraith lately.

Why aren't you writing for the show? :D

Armagaiden
July 22nd, 2006, 06:51 PM
All in all a great episode.

Are you kidding me??

After all that Michael did for them and they screwed him over YET AGAIN. Now they have two loose cannons out there, Ford and Michael, and I know for sure Michael isn't dead, and I don't blame him one bit for wanting to kill every last one of them.

Oh and of course they lost the SECOND baddest ship they had yet again in a span of only one episode. First the Orion and now the wraith ship, as if that wasn't easy to see coming :mckay: . As if the IOD aka Woosley would REALLY support the decision to attempt to save a squadron of marines and one doctor with the risk of losing the huge potential of reverse engineering Wraith Technology by losing the ship. And they would never allow their only doctor that does the main research into the one weapon they have against the wraith to remain on an isolated planet with 200 humans that could easily revert with a handful of marines :rolleyes: .

Not only that, but to actually "write" the atlantis crew into being FLABBERGASTED into what the wraith could EVER have an interest in at the planet is just astounding to me considering they KNOW they have telepathic abilities over large distances of space and they KNEW there was a high chance that the wraith would retain memory or revert, and to leave the head physician with the knowledge of their only true weapon against the wraith on this planet is just rediculous. If they want to write this show unrealistically, at least make it in some sort of positive way where the story arc takes a turn for the better by introducing a character that could've been useful, umm, LIKE MICHAEL.

They obviously need a pilot for the wraith ship, and they made such a HUGE reference to this and Michael was perfect candidate. But nope, they had to revert him back when they SAW THE FIRST TIME IT DIDN'T WORK. God forbid they'd ever write go'ald into the story line by being a alternative food source for wraith that could help us or by becket developing an alternative food source. Of course that would mean intersplicing two shows that obviously have no bearing on eachother in reality, right? :rolleyes:.

Seriously, this was once again a huge tatical error and waste of manpower, resources, and potential security, which is one thing the producers are ALWAYS good at writing into SG1 and SG:A

And now we get an episode next week that has COMPLETELY no bearing on advancing the plot whatsoever; a typical kooky stupid waste of an hour. God I cannot wait until the new season of BSG...

smushybird
July 22nd, 2006, 06:54 PM
Oh, and Beckett needs a hug.

Beckett needs a kick in you-know-what and a reminder that he's a doctor, for god's sake.

rarocks24
July 22nd, 2006, 06:57 PM
I think the moral dilemma that arises when the Wraith are forced into human form is somewhat contrived. Just because our enemy looks like us does not make him any less of our enemy. These Wraith still have violent tendencies and still have every potential to revert back to their deadly form. The Wraith and the humans are at war. In war, both parties kill each other when they get the chance, especially when one party has information that could put the entire opposing force at risk.

That said, I do think at least one of the Wraith on the planet survived and will prove to create more problems.

Not everyone showed violent tendencies, this was probably what got Merrick killed. He risked thier plan, or they simply wanted to act out some sadistic urge on him and realized him the most vulnerable.

The issue with Merrick was distrust, not sadism. Michael showed a sense of sadism, some of the other commanders that were turning back did. The rest believed Atlantis's story about a virus and obeyed. They were then to be used as sacrifices for the Wraith hive that was coming to get them.

smushybird
July 22nd, 2006, 07:00 PM
I have to say honestly that I'm starting to side with Michael about the way they've been treating him. They could have turned him into an ally over time

And that would have been more interesting a storyline than what they did.




She could do much better. *cough*caldwell*cough*

Yes, I think she has more chemistry with Caldwell than with Sheppard. She and Caldwell look more couple-y together. And the conflict between them makes a potential relationship more interesting. Caldwell forces her to play the tough cookie and Liz is more interesting when she shows a backbone.

Armagaiden
July 22nd, 2006, 07:01 PM
Seriously people

The whole premise of these 3 episodes is to stop the wraith reaching the earth and secondly to prevent the spread of information about the status of Atlantis. (that it is not destroyed)

To do this Weaver gambles everything The Deadalus, The Orion etc... To stop them at all costs...

This situation arose from the failed experiment on Michael. Here their first mistake is to not guard him properly and he gets away. Their next mistake is to trust Michael and his queen which puts everything in jeopardy. Then they correct these mistakes by destroying one hiveship and cribling the second one, at the cost of The Orion...

This leaves them with Michael, a crippled hive ship and about 200 wraiths in human form and the secret of atlantis. And then the writers expect me to believe that the Atlantis team will risk everything for the sake of 200 humanised wraith after they were nearly destroyed in (space) battle with them, eaten by wraiths, their former trackrecord of the "vaccine" tests, they have just slaughtered several thousand wraiths with the gas vaccine (hey no problem), are willing to sacrifice everything to stop the the wraith at all costs, etc...

In other words they have just escaped complete disaster and hours later they are wiiling to risk everything they have achieved... because it`s the right/moral thing to do and by doing the exact same mistakes that just got them in trouble in the first place.

Ohh and I almost forgot, they wake all the human wraiths, they place them in an open environment with almost no guards or security, they expect them to administer the vaccine themselves despite the fact that they need it every 24 hours etc... And these "patients" are always only hours away from becomming lethal enemies with vital information on Atlantis and the general direction of earth.

Come on, now... That`s not acting like humans, that`s acting like muppets or lemmings... That makes absolutely no sense to gamble the future of Atlantis and earth on "a work in progress vaccine" and good faith that have already failed before... That`s totally absurd given the circumstances.

IMHO

VERY well said. That camp should've been like Guantanamo Bay, if it should've been set up at all, since if they really wanted to get over the moral dilemma they could've easily just waited until they reverted back and killed them.

And to think Woosley would cover the butt of Wrong-all-the-time Weir by insinuating a "covering over" the decision making at the end of the episode. Gimme a break!!

lirenel
July 22nd, 2006, 07:14 PM
Well, I just read the thread...and boy, I disagree so much it's not funny.

THEY ARE WRAITH!!! They kill us without remorse, and worst of all, they won't change. It's literally us or them. And, while this may sound selfish, I'd rather it be us who live to see another day.

What Shep did was necessary. If he didn't, Atlantis would've been attacked, and, if fallen, Earth would've been attacked, and that'll be the end of the human race across our entire GALAXY!

Is that enoughg incentive to kill 200 Wraith? I think it is. Is it ethical? That's up to the beholder.



Nope.

Remember we nuked about 4 hives worth of Wraith in Siege Part 3.

I think the part that bothered me is that they killed all the human/wraith who hadn't reverted back. They were just a group of people who thought the Atlantis team was there to help them, and then they get slaughtered. I know it had to happen and I think Sheppard made the right decision for the time, but I'm just angry that it came to that. That Sheppard and the others made the human/Wraith trust them and then killed them. That, to me, is worse than anything Rodney did in Trinity. They, in my opinion, were innocent no matter that they used to be Wraith.

Ouroboros
July 22nd, 2006, 07:29 PM
I'm not sure what I think about this episode yet. The wrting seemed fairly consistant with it self but at the same time there was a lot of extremely questionable behavior on the part of the heros that they once again seemed to try to legitimize without much success. What I'm wondering is if this was done on purpose, do they really want to make the SGA team look like a bunch of irrational idiots who're being led around by their own prejudices as oppossed to logic, or was it unintentional.

For example someone explain this to me.

Why did they sabotage potentially the best opportunity they will ever have or ever get to infiltrate and undermine the core values of Wraith society by still acting like distrustful douches to the guy who essentially saved their planet?

You would think that after Michael betrayed his own queen, helped Shep to rescue Ronon and McKay and disabled the jamming codes that allowed SGA to not only win the space battle but essentially kill or mutate 1000s of his former countrymen that he'd be entitled to some measure of trust. Afterall had he not disabled the codes in NML everyone on Daedalus would have suffocated and the Hiveship would have eventually repaired itself and been on it's way to Earth, or back to Pegasus to spread the word. It' not like he just slipped a file of classified Wraith popcorn recipies under the table here. The guy really went out on a limb for Sheppard and co. and helped them kill a group of people that very well may have been his comrads for hundreds, if not thousands of years. The queen might have even been his own mother!

So how do they repay the guy who sold his own momma down the river to help them?

They lock him in a room and once again threaten to torture and murder him along with what few surviors from his ship there were left from the gas attack.

They even write him a series of lines this time that make it plain as day to the audience that what they're doing to him and the other Wraith mind as well be murder, and though Teyla seems to consider it, the command staff decides to do it anyway!

This is the point where I really started scratching my head. What message are they trying to get across here other than "hey look guys we're just a cirus tent of irrational racists here. Yep dem Wraith, they all no good you see, even the ones that actually go out of their way to help us SAVE OUR ENTIRE PLANET BY TURNING ON THEIR OWN KIND. Nope can't trust 'em no sir, not so long as they's Wraith. You see people shouldn't be judged by their actions, their history or their character. They should judged by the DNA they were born with."

Seriously what am I missing here folks. Was the basic message of this episode not "no matter how much good a supposed "evil" enemy does or how much they help you, you must never trust them so long as they're of race/species X, because that race/species is evil and can never be anything else regardless of the boatload of evidence against this you just saw last week."

If they hadn't botched this opportunity in the horrible horrible way they did they could have ended up with a small Wraith community on that single hiveship that was essentially loyal to them.

They could have slowly allowed the other human/Wraith to revert back to their true selves, after they'd spent enough time among other humans, using the vaccine to control the rate at which they did so. When that happened they could have Michael explain to them how the other Wraith would reject them now because of what had happened to them just as they would no doubt remember was his own fate. And how the SGA people they'd been getting to know over the course of the last few weeks were trying their best to work toward a way for their kind and humanity to co-exist in some fashion.

Some would not agree, but there would be little they could do given the situation, but others would not doubt come to the same conclusion Mike had. That a lot of what Wraith say about humans comes from a one sided propoganda perspective and the humans really are, more or less just as intelligent and worthy of life as they are. We know that being a human for a little while gives a Wraith this sense of perspective after only a few hours of really shaby treatment. Actively trying to expose them to human society and values would seem to be all but guaranteed to illicit the same reaction. This combined with the fact that they would all remember how mike was treated by the other Wraith would pretty much eliminate any desire they'd have to "go back".

Once that took place they could have just given them the hiveship or even just it's compliment of those little scoutships, and they could have been on their way.

Is there a risk that they might reveal Atlantis' location, sure, but that's a risk every time someone goes offworld.

This was the perfect set-up to turn those 200 guys. So many things fell into place that would have helped it succeed that it's unlikely such a good opportunity will EVER come by again. And what did they do with it? They pissed it away because they couldn't come to afford even some basic measure of trust to the guy who'd trusted them enough to help them defeat his hiveship to save their planet from his kind.

A single group of Wraith floating around out there who had ties back to Atlantis and a different perspective on humanity could very well be the beginings of something akin to a Wraith Tok'ra or free Jaffa nation. You could even supply them with the virus and encourage them to turn other Wraith to the cause. In any case it would be a massively useful future resource contingent only on the fact that we trust a guy who'd helped us kill thousands of his countrymen not to betray us. The risk benefit to my eye favors keeping the Wraith group alive as potential future allies. Who knows what insights they could also give us on Wraith political, societal and technological considerations? They never even debriefed Michael on any of that stuff here. You'd think if they were acting at all sensibly they'd at least try to be friendly while they got him to spew some nice info before they stuck the knife in his back, but they couldn't even wait that long to do it it would seem.

This wasn't even about empathy necessarily, though that was a part of it, it was about wasting a very good opportunity because you're clinging to flawed ideas like "all Wraith are evil, even the ones that help us save our planet from others of their own kind."

If helping us save our world from their own kind isn't going to be enough to prove that a Wraith can be a potential ally than what will, nothing I suppose?

So it would seem our enwisened leaders on Atlantis really are going out of their way to keep Earth locked in a fight to the death with a gigantic alien empire that defeated the ancients.

Yep, that's a winning plan all right.

Armagaiden
July 22nd, 2006, 07:36 PM
And, watching the teaser for this ep again and just seeing Michael in the background, flying the ship, it makes me want him back even more. I mean, come on; he's such a good character. Just, don't try to de-Wraith-ify him this time, 'kay?

Umm, clearly you're missing the part where they betrayed him for the SECOND TIME. Yea, they won't have a chance to try to de-wraith-ify him, they'll be trying to kill him, because he'll be trying to KILL THEM, which I don't blame him for.

Armagaiden
July 22nd, 2006, 07:52 PM
I'm not sure what I think about this episode yet. The wrting seemed fairly consistant with it self but at the same time there was a lot of extremely questionable behavior on the part of the heros that they once again seemed to try to legitimize without much success. What I'm wondering is if this was done on purpose, do they really want to make the SGA team look like a bunch of irrational idiots who're being led around by their own prejudices as oppossed to logic, or was it unintentional.

For example someone explain this to me.

Why did they sabotage potentially the best opportunity they will ever have or ever get to infiltrate and undermine the core values of Wraith society by still acting like distrustful douches to the guy who essentially saved their planet?

You would think that after Michael betrayed his own queen, helped Shep to rescue Ronon and McKay and disabled the jamming codes that allowed SGA to not only win the space battle but essentially kill or mutate 1000s of his former countrymen that he'd be entitled to some measure of trust. Afterall had he not disabled the codes in NML everyone on Daedalus would have suffocated and the Hiveship would have eventually repaired itself and been on it's way to Earth, or back to Pegasus to spread the word. It' not like he just slipped a file of classified Wraith popcorn recipies under the table here. The guy really went out on a limb for Sheppard and co. and helped them kill a group of people that very well may have been his comrads for hundreds, if not thousands of years. The queen might have even been his own mother!

So how do they repay the guy who sold his own momma down the river to help them?

They lock him in a room and once again threaten to torture and murder him along with what few surviors from his ship there were left from the gas attack.

They even write him a series of lines this time that make it plain as day to the audience that what they're doing to him and the other Wraith mind as well be murder, and though Teyla seems to consider it, the command staff decides to do it anyway!

This is the point where I really started scratching my head. What message are they trying to get across here other than "hey look guys we're just a cirus tent of irrational racists here. Yep dem Wraith, they all no good you see, even the ones that actually go out of their way to help us SAVE OUR ENTIRE PLANET BY TURNING ON THEIR OWN KIND. Nope can't trust 'em no sir, not so long as they's Wraith. You see people shouldn't be judged by their actions, their history or their character. They should judged by the DNA they were born with."

Seriously what am I missing here folks. Was the basic message of this episode not "no matter how much good a supposed "evil" enemy does or how much they help you, you must never trust them so long as they're of race/species X, because that race/species is evil and can never be anything else regardless of the boatload of evidence against this you just saw last week."

If they hadn't botched this opportunity in the horrible horrible way they did they could have ended up with a small Wraith community on that single hiveship that was essentially loyal to them.

They could have slowly allowed the other human/Wraith to revert back to their true selves, after they'd spent enough time among other humans, using the vaccine to control the rate at which they did so. When that happened they could have Michael explain to them how the other Wraith would reject them now because of what had happened to them just as they would no doubt remember was his own fate. And how the SGA people they'd been getting to know over the course of the last few weeks were trying their best to work toward a way for their kind and humanity to co-exist in some fashion.

Some would not agree, but there would be little they could do given the situation, but others would not doubt come to the same conclusion Mike had. That a lot of what Wraith say about humans comes from a one sided propoganda perspective and the humans really are, more or less just as intelligent and worthy of life as they are. We know that being a human for a little while gives a Wraith this sense of perspective after only a few hours of really shaby treatment. Actively trying to expose them to human society and values would seem to be all but guaranteed to illicit the same reaction. This combined with the fact that they would all remember how mike was treated by the other Wraith would pretty much eliminate any desire they'd have to "go back".

Once that took place they could have just given them the hiveship or even just it's compliment of those little scoutships, and they could have been on their way.

Is there a risk that they might reveal Atlantis' location, sure, but that's a risk every time someone goes offworld.

This was the perfect set-up to turn those 200 guys. So many things fell into place that would have helped it succeed that it's unlikely such a good opportunity will EVER come by again. And what did they do with it? They pissed it away because they couldn't come to afford even some basic measure of trust to the guy who'd trusted them enough to help them defeat his hiveship to save their planet from his kind.

A single group of Wraith floating around out there who had ties back to Atlantis and a different perspective on humanity could very well be the beginings of something akin to a Wraith Tok'ra or free Jaffa nation. You could even supply them with the virus and encourage them to turn other Wraith to the cause. In any case it would be a massively useful future resource contingent only on the fact that we trust a guy who'd helped us kill thousands of his countrymen not to betray us. The risk benefit to my eye favors keeping the Wraith group alive as potential future allies. Who knows what insights they could also give us on Wraith political, societal and technological considerations? They never even debriefed Michael on any of that stuff here. You'd think if they were acting at all sensibly they'd at least try to be friendly while they got him to spew some nice info before they stuck the knife in his back, but they couldn't even wait that long to do it it would seem.

This wasn't even about empathy necessarily, though that was a part of it, it was about wasting a very good opportunity because you're clinging to flawed ideas like "all Wraith are evil, even the ones that help us save our planet from others of their own kind."

If helping us save our world from their own kind isn't going to be enough to prove that a Wraith can be a potential ally than what will, nothing I suppose?

So it would seem our enwisened leaders on Atlantis really are going out of their way to keep Earth locked in a fight to the death with a gigantic alien empire that defeated the ancients.

Yep, that's a winning plan all right.

Man, talk about a positive story arc! NOW THAT'S WHAT I'M TALKING ABOUT. That kind of scope is what I remember from the days of BB5.

Unfortunately you're not a writer/producer, and they are, and unfortunately they don't seem to be able to write their characters with the amount of depth and complexity that alters their decisions for the better in the humanity over culture/war/goodvsevil that BSG can when, for example, it comes to main characters being able to trust certain cylons to some extent that develops over time after being shot by one, because in reality, that person was a good friend for a long time Michael SAVED THEIR LIVES. HE HELPED TO SAVE EARTH, OUR HOME PLANET. Sure his motive was to stay alive, but isn't everyones? Survival? He could've easily turned on them once he was in control of the hive ship, but he didn't.

But I do have to admit they have some excellent dialogue on both sg shows, very witty dialogue. Unfortunately that's not enough to keep me around.

I get tired of stupid descisions screwing everybody over but the main characters of a show. It's happened throughout the seasons with the guo'ald each time they went through the stargate and got their butts shot back to earth while the planet on the other side and it's people get obliterated, including the to'kra.

Numerous would be jaffa rebels have been deceived/or obliterated.

Both of two main character's overall goals in the overall story arc (jack and daniel) got shattered/obliterated when daniels wife was killed and jacks abados son-like friend got obliterated by anubis.

But hey, who care's so long as the characters keep on a chugging to save the galaxy and have no lives of their own (although finally jack got to get out but over 8 seasons and so many years I don't know if that's really character-realistic considering how much he's lost over the years to be in the program. Quite frankly with how much all of them have lost and with how the writers have wrote them in having no lives, I wouldn't be surprised if they stayed in until they died of old age!)

I noticed the producers had mentioned they didn't understand why their show was so successfull and the audiences have kept with them over the years on that sci-fi special "the science of stargate" or whatever. And you know what, they're right. I can't understand it either. I can't understand why I've been watching it when each time I'm disappointed in how the story arc plays out.

I guess that's why I'm done with these shows.

BSG will most definitely satisfy my sci-fi needs when everyother show that I loved has gone the way of dust (BB5, star treks, x-files, etc.) and the only other shows available are essentially comedies/tragedies in space... :S

MarshAngel
July 22nd, 2006, 08:47 PM
It seems to some people that those of us who think the Atlantis team behaved stupidly are opposed to having them make mistakes. That's really not the issue. It's perfectly OK for them to make mistakes; It's the fact they never seem to acknowledge them, or show after effects of having made them that is the problem. They just push through and keep following the same line of thinking never learning from their mistakes. Their decisons never weigh them at all, it's like they're all cyborgs.

While I think their actions were stupid, it's their lack of reaction that gets me. Why is it no one has the guts to ask aloud if they should be doing this, ask if there's another way... they don't ask before hand and their choices never seem to bother them afterwards.

Weir acknowledged in one moment that she made a bad decision but she places far more emphasis on her wondrous ability to make hard decisions in the first place. So in the end, she comes off as being the good guy simply by comparing herself to those who weren't capable of making the decision to screw up.

The whole ethical dilemma seems to be happening among the fans, not the characters which is unfortunate because the same great arguments being made on both sides of the issue on this board, would make for great, dramatic, meaningful, dialogue in the show. If they don't talk about it in the show, we have no reason to believe it means anything to them at all.

O'Neil
July 22nd, 2006, 08:50 PM
It all comes down to the Atlantis team acting like Pansies. Think about it... Everywhere they go, they are lied too, (and fall for the lie), gullible, captured, beat up, blown up, slapped around, and for some unknown reason, they cant seem to get past it. If they would quit playing around and actualy kill more people and take what they need with force, they might just do alot better.

Where did they find all of these people? Weir said she had been getting together a long list of people for the trip. I think she got her "list" a little confused.

There is one thing I want to know.... Why did they turn Michael back into a human? All they did was tick him off... oh wait, thats right. They havent reached a high enough number of screw ups yet. So where are they at right now? 10,045?

Oh well, ill continue to watch the show, but the storylines and ideas are kinda fruity right now. I hope they fix it.

ShadowMaat
July 22nd, 2006, 09:11 PM
I don't mind them making mistakes, but shouldn't they LEARN SOMETHING when they do? Instead we get Michael v2.0 with the exact same mistakes being made AGAIN. The first time was bad enough, but TWICE?! That's unforgiveable.

And there's a difference between "oops, we woke the Wraith" mistakes and "oops, we just handed over the keys to Atlantis and Earth to someone we've royally f***** over twice" mistakes. There's "Whoops, I just vaporized half a solar system" mistakes and then there's "Whoops, I left a civilian doctor without much offworld experience behind on a remote world with 200 amnesiac Wraith and four guys with guns" mistakes.

Where's the COMMON SENSE??

Cory Holmes
July 22nd, 2006, 09:24 PM
Where's the COMMON SENSE??

I've given up hope of seeing common sense in the real world, so there's no reason at all for me to expect it on a fictional TV show :p

lily
July 22nd, 2006, 09:55 PM
I liked Woolsey in SG-1, at least in past seasons, I'm not watching season 10 so I can't talk about it... I like him in SGA too. I wouldn't want him as a regular, but I like him very much as a recurring character, in a few episodes per season.


I think Misbegotten was an exceptionally fine episode. Strong writing. Strong scripting. And strong acting.

I really felt sorry for Micheal for what the team did to him (again.) At one time, the Atlantis team might have had him as an ally (maybe not...). But after the events of Misbegotten, Micheal will never be an ally ever again. Assuming Micheal and some other Wraith survived the bombardment from the caputured Hive ship, Micheal will forever be cemeted as Atlantis' nemesis. Factor in the fact Micheal now has the team's nuclear bomb, Micheal has now became the team's greatest singular threat.

I actually feel bad for Micheal.

It is nice to see that there are shades of grey in that whole area of fighting the Wraith. The team will have to deal with the choices they have made for a long time.


I give Misbegotten a 10. Perfect.

Exactly. I've only seen it once so far, and... WOW! I absolutely LOVED this epi to bits. Every second. I loved the story line and I loved all the character moments. I wouldn't change a thing.

I think this was one of the best Stargate Atlantis episodes ever. Excellent character development and very cool story. Hope we hear from Michael again!

White Knight
July 22nd, 2006, 10:39 PM
I reckon the end of the episode could've been better and there were some missed opportunities to explore the ethics and morals of dealing with the humano-Wraith, but the episode in general was great. I was particularly impressed by performances by Paul McGillion (its so nice to have an episode where Beckett's getting a big role), Connor Trinneer (loved Michael in this episode, and his Wraith getup at the end was fantastic!) and Robert Picardo (this is the ep where I started appreciating the Woolsey character).
I wrote a much longer review of this episode today and submitted it, but I don't think they'll put it up.

Willow'sCat
July 22nd, 2006, 10:55 PM
I've given up hope of seeing common sense in the real world, so there's no reason at all for me to expect it on a fictional TV show :pGreen. :D

Must remember that! ;) I obviously except far far too much from my TV...silly me *headdesk* No more common sense.

This should now be a great season. :p

andrewag
July 22nd, 2006, 11:14 PM
I really liked this episode. It delt with a whole range of issues.

I was a little annoyed when they were trying to work out (back at atlantis) why a hive ship was going to the planet. Like DUH!

I felt sorry for Michael having this happen twice - especially when it's happened before. Now he has a gang of merry followers who can sympathise with him when before he felt isoclated. Now in future episodes he will be back with a force of wraith and it will be lame.

Overall I really liked this episode. If they can keep it up, season 3 is going to be great!

bluealien
July 23rd, 2006, 12:38 AM
I'm not sure what I think about this episode yet. The wrting seemed fairly consistant with it self but at the same time there was a lot of extremely questionable behavior on the part of the heros that they once again seemed to try to legitimize without much success. What I'm wondering is if this was done on purpose, do they really want to make the SGA team look like a bunch of irrational idiots who're being led around by their own prejudices as oppossed to logic, or was it unintentional.

For example someone explain this to me.

Why did they sabotage potentially the best opportunity they will ever have or ever get to infiltrate and undermine the core values of Wraith society by still acting like distrustful douches to the guy who essentially saved their planet?

You would think that after Michael betrayed his own queen, helped Shep to rescue Ronon and McKay and disabled the jamming codes that allowed SGA to not only win the space battle but essentially kill or mutate 1000s of his former countrymen that he'd be entitled to some measure of trust. Afterall had he not disabled the codes in NML everyone on Daedalus would have suffocated and the Hiveship would have eventually repaired itself and been on it's way to Earth, or back to Pegasus to spread the word. It' not like he just slipped a file of classified Wraith popcorn recipies under the table here. The guy really went out on a limb for Sheppard and co. and helped them kill a group of people that very well may have been his comrads for hundreds, if not thousands of years. The queen might have even been his own mother!

So how do they repay the guy who sold his own momma down the river to help them?

They lock him in a room and once again threaten to torture and murder him along with what few surviors from his ship there were left from the gas attack.

They even write him a series of lines this time that make it plain as day to the audience that what they're doing to him and the other Wraith mind as well be murder, and though Teyla seems to consider it, the command staff decides to do it anyway!

This is the point where I really started scratching my head. What message are they trying to get across here other than "hey look guys we're just a cirus tent of irrational racists here. Yep dem Wraith, they all no good you see, even the ones that actually go out of their way to help us SAVE OUR ENTIRE PLANET BY TURNING ON THEIR OWN KIND. Nope can't trust 'em no sir, not so long as they's Wraith. You see people shouldn't be judged by their actions, their history or their character. They should judged by the DNA they were born with."

Seriously what am I missing here folks. Was the basic message of this episode not "no matter how much good a supposed "evil" enemy does or how much they help you, you must never trust them so long as they're of race/species X, because that race/species is evil and can never be anything else regardless of the boatload of evidence against this you just saw last week."

If they hadn't botched this opportunity in the horrible horrible way they did they could have ended up with a small Wraith community on that single hiveship that was essentially loyal to them.

They could have slowly allowed the other human/Wraith to revert back to their true selves, after they'd spent enough time among other humans, using the vaccine to control the rate at which they did so. When that happened they could have Michael explain to them how the other Wraith would reject them now because of what had happened to them just as they would no doubt remember was his own fate. And how the SGA people they'd been getting to know over the course of the last few weeks were trying their best to work toward a way for their kind and humanity to co-exist in some fashion.

Some would not agree, but there would be little they could do given the situation, but others would not doubt come to the same conclusion Mike had. That a lot of what Wraith say about humans comes from a one sided propoganda perspective and the humans really are, more or less just as intelligent and worthy of life as they are. We know that being a human for a little while gives a Wraith this sense of perspective after only a few hours of really shaby treatment. Actively trying to expose them to human society and values would seem to be all but guaranteed to illicit the same reaction. This combined with the fact that they would all remember how mike was treated by the other Wraith would pretty much eliminate any desire they'd have to "go back".

Once that took place they could have just given them the hiveship or even just it's compliment of those little scoutships, and they could have been on their way.

Is there a risk that they might reveal Atlantis' location, sure, but that's a risk every time someone goes offworld.

This was the perfect set-up to turn those 200 guys. So many things fell into place that would have helped it succeed that it's unlikely such a good opportunity will EVER come by again. And what did they do with it? They pissed it away because they couldn't come to afford even some basic measure of trust to the guy who'd trusted them enough to help them defeat his hiveship to save their planet from his kind.

A single group of Wraith floating around out there who had ties back to Atlantis and a different perspective on humanity could very well be the beginings of something akin to a Wraith Tok'ra or free Jaffa nation. You could even supply them with the virus and encourage them to turn other Wraith to the cause. In any case it would be a massively useful future resource contingent only on the fact that we trust a guy who'd helped us kill thousands of his countrymen not to betray us. The risk benefit to my eye favors keeping the Wraith group alive as potential future allies. Who knows what insights they could also give us on Wraith political, societal and technological considerations? They never even debriefed Michael on any of that stuff here. You'd think if they were acting at all sensibly they'd at least try to be friendly while they got him to spew some nice info before they stuck the knife in his back, but they couldn't even wait that long to do it it would seem.

This wasn't even about empathy necessarily, though that was a part of it, it was about wasting a very good opportunity because you're clinging to flawed ideas like "all Wraith are evil, even the ones that help us save our planet from others of their own kind."

If helping us save our world from their own kind isn't going to be enough to prove that a Wraith can be a potential ally than what will, nothing I suppose?

So it would seem our enwisened leaders on Atlantis really are going out of their way to keep Earth locked in a fight to the death with a gigantic alien empire that defeated the ancients.

Yep, that's a winning plan all right.


EXCELLENT POST

I couldn't agree more.

ladysarah
July 23rd, 2006, 04:45 AM
This wasn't even about empathy necessarily, though that was a part of it, it was about wasting a very good opportunity because you're clinging to flawed ideas like "all Wraith are evil, even the ones that help us save our planet from others of their own kind."

If helping us save our world from their own kind isn't going to be enough to prove that a Wraith can be a potential ally than what will, nothing I suppose?

So it would seem our enwisened leaders on Atlantis really are going out of their way to keep Earth locked in a fight to the death with a gigantic alien empire that defeated the ancients.

Yep, that's a winning plan all right.

It just keeps on coming back to the writers to me, around and around in circles I ask 'what were they trying to tell us?' 'What moral message are we to take from this?'

Are we suppose to agree with the heroes, are we suppose to hate the heroes, are we suppose to agree that 'war is bad' or 'people make mistakes...again' because when I stick one of those reasons, another scene appears and it contradicts. It's all over the damn place.

And the line about the 'international distrust of the American military' I don't know how to take that one, was it ironic, was it making a point about how those silly 'international folk don't appreciate the American Military like they should OMG'

I'm very confused. And it does frustrate me.

The Ori
July 23rd, 2006, 04:55 AM
I found myself getting quite bored to be honest with you woth this ep, but am happy that they delved into Carsons character in terms of passion and desire and morality.

dosed150
July 23rd, 2006, 04:56 AM
where did micheal find out how to defuse a nuclear weapon and surely there would have been an anti tampering device and surely it would have been well hidden

Heaven
July 23rd, 2006, 05:05 AM
I don't mind them making mistakes, but shouldn't they LEARN SOMETHING when they do? Instead we get Michael v2.0 with the exact same mistakes being made AGAIN. The first time was bad enough, but TWICE?! That's unforgiveable.

Exactly! being naive is one thing but being stupid is unacceptable.
they're always making the same mistakes twice: Michael, the Genii, Ford..
I swear if they see Michael again and don't shoot him on sight I might just lose it.
I've just about had it with sympathetic enemies in this show!!
I liked it better when the wraith were just plain evil like the goauld

AutumnDream
July 23rd, 2006, 05:11 AM
Where's the COMMON SENSE??

Most of the Stargate writers leave it at home when they go to work every day?

Oh well. Next Friday it'll be a Brad Wright episode and a Rob Cooper episode. And that makes me happy. I always enjoy their work.

Inty
July 23rd, 2006, 05:22 AM
9/10 from my point of view. I really liked the interaction between Michael and Carson and the plot was cool. And I actually liked the Hive blowing up scene cause I hate hive ships. Those organic jucky ships lol :) I can't wait for next week :cameron:

CalmStorm
July 23rd, 2006, 08:12 AM
I'm not certain if someone has already brought this up or not, so I'm sorry in advance if it has been discussed.

At first, I felt a little sorry for Michael and his plight. However, after these last few episodes I could care less about what has been done to him.

When Teyla came to Michael, he said that he can't believe they were holding him prisioner after all he had done for them. He did nothing for the Atlantis team. He was saving his own life. He turned over an entire hive ship to save himself, because he wanted to live, not because he wanted to help the Atlantis team. Now he is trying to twist the issue and manipulate Teyla into feeling sorry for him. Even telling her to kill him now.

Once on the planet, he killed a fellow wraith for raising suspicions. Why not bring this one into his fold? Was it because he knew who this wraith was and would compete for his leadership position?

Furthermore, Michael had no qualms about keeping the other wraith in the dark and offering them up as a sacrafice to the hive ship that was on its way. After all, it is the strong and witty who survive. Shame on the others for not possessing the intelligence or strength.

Given all of this, I find it hard to sit back and say "poor Michael, look at what he has been through."

It just now dawned on me too, when Michael said they already got out of Beckett what they needed, I'm guessing it was the location of the nuke and possibly how to disarm it. Perhaps Beckett was given the code and the know how as a "just in case" measure.

OutThere
July 23rd, 2006, 08:32 AM
I'm not certain if someone has already brought this up or not, so I'm sorry in advance if it has been discussed.

At first, I felt a little sorry for Michael and his plight. However, after these last few episodes I could care less about what has been done to him.

When Teyla came to Michael, he said that he can't believe they were holding him prisioner after all he had done for them. He did nothing for the Atlantis team. He was saving his own life. He turned over an entire hive ship to save himself, because he wanted to live, not because he wanted to help the Atlantis team. Now he is trying to twist the issue and manipulate Teyla into feeling sorry for him. Even telling her to kill him now.

Once on the planet, he killed a fellow wraith for raising suspicions. Why not bring this one into his fold? Was it because he knew who this wraith was and would compete for his leadership position?

Furthermore, Michael had no qualms about keeping the other wraith in the dark and offering them up as a sacrafice to the hive ship that was on its way. After all, it is the strong and witty who survive. Shame on the others for not possessing the intelligence or strength.

Given all of this, I find it hard to sit back and say "poor Michael, look at what he has been through."

I agree with that assessment of Michael. He stated clearly in NML that his motive was survival. It appears he will do anything to survive, including murder any wraith or humans that are in his way. Definitely not a guy to trust.

Elinor
July 23rd, 2006, 08:57 AM
Really good episode...it's been a great start to s3.

I am enjoying this darker tone to the show....I feel it's been done ever so well.

I like how these issues with the Wraith are showing what tough decisions people in command have to make in times of war. We may not think they're the right decisions, but someone ultimately has to make the call...and the guilt that may result in that decision has to be lived with. I liked how this episode mirrored 'Michael' in the sense that you could see the doubt flit across our heroes' faces whenever a decision was being taken. 'Is this really the right thing to do?'.

Great performances all round again...and it was fab to see Beckett get some good screen time.

Yay! Teyla can fly a hive ship 'cos of her slight Wraithiness. Loved seeing her doing that.

Funniest line of the show? Don't remember the wording...but it was McKay saying something about how they wouldn't be able to hit a great, large flying barn! Hee!

Cutest moment? Shep realising he hadn't de-cloaked the PJ and the way he said 'Oh...sorry!'. LOVES!!

http://www.websmileys.com/sm/happy/1006.gif

Mefusta
July 23rd, 2006, 09:02 AM
For me, I had no real issues with this rather entertaining ep save one rather innocuous conversation:

When Woolsey had that conversation with Caldwell on the balcony, he mentions Caldwell as the 'most likely candidate' for a military command of Atlantis should Weir ever be ousted. Now, forgive me for seeing the lack of common sense [which hasn't really been all that common since way back in Children of the Gods], but how could the hell can we be expected to believe the overly-suspicious, conniving, vindictive International Oversight Committee would ever let a former Goa'uld agent take charge of easily the most technologically advanced location this side of Orilla?

Don't get me wrong, Caldwell's proven himself to be a capable commander, but can we honestly believe the IOC would ever trust that man again? Hell, i'm surprised the USAF allowed him to keep the Daedy command.

kaeyla
July 23rd, 2006, 09:14 AM
Areghnatha, this is my first one hundreth post - i am using it to say total respect to you for expressing your views on the Wraith as being living beings who deserve respect for being that alone... on page nine....it sums up what I feel. Thank you so much for expressing those words as I like to respect other forms of life whether they respect me or no, whether it is human or not in my own world or the SGA universe.

Maguyver
July 23rd, 2006, 09:37 AM
I didnt think this ep. was great it was a bit too predictable i knew that the wraith people would rebel and it was a wee bit too obvious that the atlantis hive would be destroyed it brings back memories of jack trying to bring a ghould ship back to earth(never happened)..also why did they use the hive weapons to try and destroy the wraith colony when they could hae used the puddle jumpers drones they're more powerful and more acurate...another question how did michael know how to disarm the the nuc

Serenity228
July 23rd, 2006, 10:54 AM
When the “humans” were in the tent, the one in the back, one the left, with the bizarre granny wig on, was that Peter DeLuise? :S

Why is Michael the only one who has color in his hair when he is Dewraithed? Some of the Dewraithed were bald. I’ve never seen a bald Wraith before. I think I saw one of the Dewraithed with short hair, and again, I’ve never seen a Wraith with short hair. Did Atlantis’ hair stylist try to change their hair when they were in stasis to make them look different for some reason, but ran out of time? Silly, I know, but seriously, what’s up with that? :confused:

And now for some idioms…

Beckett said that he considered being a Wraith to be an unnatural condition. He meant well when he started this whole fiasco. The road to hell is paved with good intentions. :beckett14:

Michael turned on his own people to help his former captors. He then turned on Team Atlantis on the planet when he was told they were helping him. I agree that Michael would have been an interesting and exotic addition to Atlantis, but not a smart one. Fool me once, shame on you. Fool me twice, shame on me. :wraith37:

I applaud how the writers have caused the viewers to feel sympathy for those who would eat them as soon as look at them. The Wraith experiment to make their food tastier, but do not look for other food sources. I doubt the Wraith have ever tried to find an alternative such as soy. They do not bother to kill mercifully because a large part of the joy in eating is watching their meal (human or other Wraith) squirm or act defiant. Do not feel sorry for the Wraith because they have temporarily lost their Wraith traits. They are Wraith... :teylaanime08: A leopard does not change its spots.

And as for Michael- he will be back. I hope that Team Atlantis has a long memory, because I can assure you, Michael will. He may even try to ingratiate himself again by trying to help the expedition. Beware of Wraith bearing gifts. :wraithanime11:

bluealien
July 23rd, 2006, 10:55 AM
I didnt think this ep. was great it was a bit too predictable i knew that the wraith people would rebel and it was a wee bit too obvious that the atlantis hive would be destroyed it brings back memories of jack trying to bring a ghould ship back to earth(never happened)..also why did they use the hive weapons to try and destroy the wraith colony when they could hae used the puddle jumpers drones they're more powerful and more acurate...another question how did michael know how to disarm the the nuc


Because he is not the dumb Wraith that we have been subjected to before. Michael has proved that there is a lot more to the Wraith than just life sucking aliens.

If the Atlantis team had kept him around a bit longer they may have found out a lot more about the Wraith but now instead of having him as a POSSIBLE ally he will now become a formidable enemy.

areghnatha
July 23rd, 2006, 11:17 AM
The Wraith experiment to make their food tastier, but do not look for other food sources. I doubt the Wraith have ever tried to find an alternative such as soy.

Because their feeding grounds had enough food to feed them all..
Now this situation has changed. Different situation, different sollution.
Maybe now the Wraith would accept different food sources... Nobody has asked that question so far and Dr. Beckett did not surch in that direction.

ShadowMaat
July 23rd, 2006, 11:32 AM
Some of the wraith were also rather... heavy. I've never seen anything other than a lean wraith, myself. And the baldness was definitely odd. Unless something in their individual makeup caused their hair to fall out. I suppose that could explain the random weight gain, too, but that's a pretty pathetic excuse, even for fanwanking. ;)

rarocks24
July 23rd, 2006, 11:36 AM
Some of the wraith were also rather... heavy. I've never seen anything other than a lean wraith, myself. And the baldness was definitely odd. Unless something in their individual makeup caused their hair to fall out. I suppose that could explain the random weight gain, too, but that's a pretty pathetic excuse, even for fanwanking. ;)
It seemed like almost all the Wraith were commanders. I'm thinking the commanders had hair and the warriors didn't.

I'm also thinking that the higher up commanders (as in big shot commanders) were the ones that rebelled, and the lower end commanders and most of the warriors were the ones that continued taking the virus.

On that note, Merrick wouldn't have even thought anything fishy had Sheppard hadn't acted like a jerk.

Serenity228
July 23rd, 2006, 11:36 AM
Because their feeding grounds had enough food to feed them all..
Now this situation has changed. Different situation, different sollution.
Maybe now the Wraith would accept different food sources... Nobody has asked that question so far and Dr. Beckett did not surch in that direction.

Yes, this is true. But my point is that many humans turned to soy as an alternate food source to meat, not because there was no meat, but because they found it distasteful to eat animal flesh.

The Wraith revel in the fact that their meals are alive. They get off on "the taste of defiance." I believe they have not found an alternate food source because they are fine and dandy with their current choices. They will even go so far as to eat each other. Different culture, different values, but ew. I tend to be very open minded and try to value other cultures and ways of life even if they differ from my own. If people are consenting adults and they are not hurting children or animals, than my opinion is - go for it. But the Wraith have no such worries because they have no empathy for others. They are true hedonists.

AGateFan
July 23rd, 2006, 11:37 AM
Some of the wraith were also rather... heavy. I've never seen anything other than a lean wraith, myself. And the baldness was definitely odd. Unless something in their individual makeup caused their hair to fall out. I suppose that could explain the random weight gain, too, but that's a pretty pathetic excuse, even for fanwanking. ;)
I assumed the big fat bald ones were the faceless warrior ones.

ShadowMaat
July 23rd, 2006, 12:22 PM
I assumed the big fat bald ones were the faceless warrior ones.
Yeah, but the masked warriors aren't bald, either. And I wouldn't call 'em fat.

starfox
July 23rd, 2006, 12:44 PM
Maybe it's just me, but except for the scene where Beckett's saying he's a lot less open and forgiving than he used to be (or whatever the exact line was), I'm not really seeing how the team repeating the same mistakes from "Michael" is showing a darker side of Atlantis. If anything, it's showing a foolish, ignorant and self-righteous idealism in thinking that humans are inherently better than Wraith and that we need to convert them to our ways and show them the light of humanity. It's like the Christian housewife's view of American slavery in the early 1800s. "Darkness" is doing something that's wrong because it needs to be done, not doing something that's foolish and dangerous because you're too stupid/weak to kill your enemy when the opportunity presents itself, especially when you have found yourself in a similar situation before. I would have enjoyed this episode much more if the focus had been on a debate over what to do with the prisoners, and had the result been putting the ship in orbit over that uninhabited planet and tossing the prisoners (while they still looked like humans) out the airlock, hopefully in a position so that the bodies would have been caught in the gravity field of the planet and burned on the way down. No, it doesn't sound very nice, but they're Wraith. They eat people. And to the Wraith point of view, the retrovirus was akin to murder (although, considering it stripped away all that they were and replaced it with something else, I'd go with torture and Stockholm Syndrome). Then we could have had an ethical debate that actually made sense, not just a view of our main characters acting with gross stupidity.

areghnatha
July 23rd, 2006, 12:45 PM
I think that no warrior has survived the transformation...
Remember the image at the end of NML, where the one Wraith stood in the middle of so about 4 warriors, which lay (dead?) on the ground.
The retrovirus also had no effect on the Wraith-Queen...
A Hive with only 200 Wraith on it... That number is much too small (remember when they attacked Atlantis... how many Darths flew around). That is why I believe that no warrior survived the transformation. They used to be the group with the most members on the Hive. I think that only the male Wraith without a mask have survived the retrovirus.

cafine_us
July 23rd, 2006, 12:48 PM
The hive had a lot more than 200 Wraith originally. Many died during the violence resulting in the transformation. The episode didn't really give any indication that the warriors in particular were the ones that died.

acdj31
July 23rd, 2006, 01:04 PM
I Michael's not dead. He's chilling with Ford out in the void between scripts, waiting until he and the plot devices he brings with are needed.

Michael and Ford. Now there's an interesting parallel. Wraith moving towards human and human moving towards Wraith; neither more than a step away from his original form, and neither able to be trusted by the people of the Atlantis expedition. Putting them in a room together would be such a fun psychological study. At least, until they tried to kill each other.

I was thinking the same thing after the ep. Also it would be cool to have both Micheal and Ford in the same ep. Not knowing about each other, maybe helping each other out.

Good ep not great. :o
Should have been called Sci Fi Woolsey-- a whole night of Woolsey. I like Woolsey. Or Stargate: Woolsey

bcfc
July 23rd, 2006, 04:14 PM
I really enjoyed this episode, for us getting a hive ship and then have it blow up. (how many ships have we lost in the last year), I also liked the politics with woolsey and weir although his change in opinion is becoming predictable now.

To be honest i felt sorry for the Wraith, although I didnt really understand the retrovirus they knew that they would change back and it had only been tested on Michael.

The decision to bomb the site was annoying, it just proves that Atlantis is getting away with what they like, Sheppards reaction to woolsey was a good example not facing up to his decisions and avoiding the issue.

AutumnDream
July 23rd, 2006, 04:36 PM
Should have been called Sci Fi Woolsey-- a whole night of Woolsey. I like Woolsey. Or Stargate: Woolsey

Rofflecakes! You've figured out what the third spinoff is! Congratulations!

Alipeeps
July 23rd, 2006, 05:09 PM
You would think that after Michael betrayed his own queen, helped Shep to rescue Ronon and McKay and disabled the jamming codes that allowed SGA to not only win the space battle but essentially kill or mutate 1000s of his former countrymen that he'd be entitled to some measure of trust. Afterall had he not disabled the codes in NML everyone on Daedalus would have suffocated and the Hiveship would have eventually repaired itself and been on it's way to Earth, or back to Pegasus to spread the word. It' not like he just slipped a file of classified Wraith popcorn recipies under the table here. The guy really went out on a limb for Sheppard and co. and helped them kill a group of people that very well may have been his comrads for hundreds, if not thousands of years. The queen might have even been his own mother!

So how do they repay the guy who sold his own momma down the river to help them?

They lock him in a room and once again threaten to torture and murder him along with what few surviors from his ship there were left from the gas attack.

They even write him a series of lines this time that make it plain as day to the audience that what they're doing to him and the other Wraith mind as well be murder, and though Teyla seems to consider it, the command staff decides to do it anyway!

This is the point where I really started scratching my head. What message are they trying to get across here other than "hey look guys we're just a cirus tent of irrational racists here. Yep dem Wraith, they all no good you see, even the ones that actually go out of their way to help us SAVE OUR ENTIRE PLANET BY TURNING ON THEIR OWN KIND. Nope can't trust 'em no sir, not so long as they's Wraith. You see people shouldn't be judged by their actions, their history or their character. They should judged by the DNA they were born with."

Seriously what am I missing here folks. Was the basic message of this episode not "no matter how much good a supposed "evil" enemy does or how much they help you, you must never trust them so long as they're of race/species X, because that race/species is evil and can never be anything else regardless of the boatload of evidence against this you just saw last week."

If they hadn't botched this opportunity in the horrible horrible way they did they could have ended up with a small Wraith community on that single hiveship that was essentially loyal to them.

They could have slowly allowed the other human/Wraith to revert back to their true selves, after they'd spent enough time among other humans, using the vaccine to control the rate at which they did so. When that happened they could have Michael explain to them how the other Wraith would reject them now because of what had happened to them just as they would no doubt remember was his own fate. And how the SGA people they'd been getting to know over the course of the last few weeks were trying their best to work toward a way for their kind and humanity to co-exist in some fashion.

Some would not agree, but there would be little they could do given the situation, but others would not doubt come to the same conclusion Mike had. That a lot of what Wraith say about humans comes from a one sided propoganda perspective and the humans really are, more or less just as intelligent and worthy of life as they are. We know that being a human for a little while gives a Wraith this sense of perspective after only a few hours of really shaby treatment. Actively trying to expose them to human society and values would seem to be all but guaranteed to illicit the same reaction. This combined with the fact that they would all remember how mike was treated by the other Wraith would pretty much eliminate any desire they'd have to "go back".

Once that took place they could have just given them the hiveship or even just it's compliment of those little scoutships, and they could have been on their way.

Is there a risk that they might reveal Atlantis' location, sure, but that's a risk every time someone goes offworld.

This was the perfect set-up to turn those 200 guys. So many things fell into place that would have helped it succeed that it's unlikely such a good opportunity will EVER come by again. And what did they do with it? They pissed it away because they couldn't come to afford even some basic measure of trust to the guy who'd trusted them enough to help them defeat his hiveship to save their planet from his kind.

A single group of Wraith floating around out there who had ties back to Atlantis and a different perspective on humanity could very well be the beginings of something akin to a Wraith Tok'ra or free Jaffa nation. You could even supply them with the virus and encourage them to turn other Wraith to the cause. In any case it would be a massively useful future resource contingent only on the fact that we trust a guy who'd helped us kill thousands of his countrymen not to betray us. The risk benefit to my eye favors keeping the Wraith group alive as potential future allies. Who knows what insights they could also give us on Wraith political, societal and technological considerations? They never even debriefed Michael on any of that stuff here. You'd think if they were acting at all sensibly they'd at least try to be friendly while they got him to spew some nice info before they stuck the knife in his back, but they couldn't even wait that long to do it it would seem.


Okay I just got to reply to that. There's been so much discussion on here about how mean the team were to Michael and the human Wraith etc etc and yeah, I do get that and I think it was a really harsh, dark decision to do that to Michael but I can see how they felt they had no choice.

My point here in response to all this talk about how they should have made Michael an ally is this - how is he going to eat? The guy is a WRAITH - he needs to eat human beings to stay alive. But you want to make him an ally, keep him around on Atlantis or even send him out into the galaxy with a ship and your blessing "Off you go, Mikey boy. Thanks for all your help, here's a ship, go eat as many humans as you like and oh, by the way, please don't tell anyone about Atlantis, okay? Pretty please?"

And then you want to do this with 200 Wraith? It doesn't matter how nice you are to them or how you might think they might empathise with humans after having been one for a while. THEY EAT HUMANS TO LIVE. They will continue to eat humans to live. And yes, whilst they may have been sympathetic as humans, it's pretty clear that once they DO start to revert to Wraith form, all that empathy is out the window and they are just like any other Wraith; they want to eat and they want you dead. You're not an ally to them, you're a food source.

Can you seriously see the SGA team - or the IOA - agreeing to set 200+ Wraith (with the knowledge of Atlantis' existence) free to roam the galaxy killing humans?

And what makes you think Michael is so darn trustworthy? Sure, he betrayed his own hive to help Shep and co. He certainly didn't do that because he's their friend. He said himself he did it because he wanted to stay alive and sooner or later the queen was going to get rid of him. Would you trust a guy who essentially helped murder thousands of his own kind (as you say, possibly his own family really) to not turn on the people who had already, in his view, tortured him once? Michael wants to survive. If he thought betraying Atlantis would give him a better chance of survival, he'd do it in a heartbeat.

Comparing the captured Wraith to the Tok'ra or the free Jaffa nation etc is specious - those cultures don't view humans as food. You cannot make any kind of lasting, trustworthy alliance with a species/culture that sees you as dinner.

Ltcolshepjumper
July 23rd, 2006, 05:18 PM
I have to agree. Despite the moral issues here, you only have three options, one of which is impossible for the SGA team to accomplish, even with Dr. Beckett's expertise:


Turn the wraith into humans and lie to them.
Kill the Wraith and practically commit genocide.
Find a way to modify their bodies to eat normal food( fruit, vegetables, animal meat, etc.)
:sheppard:

ShadowMaat
July 23rd, 2006, 06:00 PM
We've blown up hiveships full of Wraith before, why should this time be any different?

Dress a wolf in sheepskin and it's still a wolf. If you're worried about it attacking the flock, just kill it, don't try and convince it that it goes "baa" and eats grass.

Annubis' hitman
July 23rd, 2006, 06:10 PM
In my opinion a very good episode. I like the whole moral dilema with the retro virus. it adds depth to the show.

I also liked the story.

I espcially liked the Woolsey moments with characters.

Im sad that we lost the hive ship, but i had a feeling it would happen so no biggie.

Good Ep.

PG15
July 23rd, 2006, 06:19 PM
I think the part that bothered me is that they killed all the human/wraith who hadn't reverted back. They were just a group of people who thought the Atlantis team was there to help them, and then they get slaughtered. I know it had to happen and I think Sheppard made the right decision for the time, but I'm just angry that it came to that. That Sheppard and the others made the human/Wraith trust them and then killed them. That, to me, is worse than anything Rodney did in Trinity. They, in my opinion, were innocent no matter that they used to be Wraith.

To use an extreme example, what if we captured Osama Bin Laden and then erased his memory.

Will he be any less guilty for what he did? Just because they don't have their memory (which can return if left alone), doesn't make them any less Wraith-y.

Willow'sCat
July 23rd, 2006, 06:29 PM
We've blown up hiveships full of Wraith before, why should this time be any different?

Exactly! This is scifi you have ships blown up with heaps of *aliens* dying all the time we get that, it is cool, but this was something else, this was an experiment on a species that was not in anyway consenting. And when it blows up in our faces, which of course it would. :rolleyes: We still don't learn. I say kill them in their hives no qualms with that! But to do this? Makes no sense and it makes our heroes out to be stupid and devoid of any kind of morals. :S


I agree with that assessment of Michael. He stated clearly in NML that his motive was survival. It appears he will do anything to survive, including murder any wraith or humans that are in his way. Definitely not a guy to trust.And he is so different from us... how? :mckay: I find that argument a little dismissive of our guys behaviour.

It is an easy out for almost anything you would do to him. Hey he is just out for himself, to survive... well duh aren't we all in the end and isn't that the "neat" little message this ep was sending.

Screw morals lets just do what keeps us alive. Hell yeah! :rolleyes:

Willow'sCat
July 23rd, 2006, 06:35 PM
To use an extreme example, what if we captured Osama Bin Laden and then erased his memory.

Will he be any less guilty for what he did? Just because they don't have their memory (which can return if left alone), doesn't make them any less Wraith-y.Ooh that is a little too hot button issue you are brave. :cool:

I just ask are we any less guilty of murder becasue they are Wraith, at least *I hope* Osama would be put on trial.

We were gaoler, judge and executioner. They call that a Kangaroo court and I thought only really backward societies used them. :cool:

Alipeeps
July 23rd, 2006, 06:55 PM
We were gaoler, judge and executioner. They call that a Kangaroo court and I thought only really backward societies used them. :cool:

So what would be your solution then? They had to use the retrovirus not only to save themselves but also to save Earth - to allow them access to the hive ship and it's life support and to prevent the Wraith from repairing the hive and carrying on to Earth. You can see that, right?

So given that they had to do that and the consequences are that they are left with 200 human-form Wraith, what would you suggest they do with them?

Their only real options are to:
1. Kill them anyway asap while they're still human (a pretty hard thing to do given the human race's inclination towards empathy and anthropomorphism)
2. Let em turn back to Wraith and then kill em
3. Let them go - in which case they turn back into Wraith.. Wraith with the knowledge of Earth's location and improved hyperdrive engines
4. Try to give them a chance of survival as human beings

The SGA team tried to make the best of a bad situation. They had to use the retrovirus but once they were left with human-form Wraith, they tried to do their best by them and find a solution that didn't involve just slaughtering them. Was that attempt overly-optimistic? Very probably. Did they let their altruism get in the way of cold, hard pragmatism? Almost certainly.

But of the choices they had available to them, they did at least choose to try to give the former Wraith a chance for survival.

lirenel
July 23rd, 2006, 06:59 PM
Ooh that is a little too hot button issue you are brave. :cool:

I just ask are we any less guilty of murder becasue they are Wraith, at least *I hope* Osama would be put on trial.

We were gaoler, judge and executioner. They call that a Kangaroo court and I thought only really backward societies used them. :cool:

I hadn't thought about it like that, but you're right. We would at least give bin Ladin a trial, as we have with Saddam Hussein.

vaberella
July 23rd, 2006, 07:12 PM
Tsk. Tsk. There are sooo many things wrong with this episode. I am very disappointed in Sheppard and his gungho attitude about killing the "people" as he puts it. As an anthropology student, I find this whole arc completely disturbing. Michael gets screwed over every time. I hope Karma really kicks the Atlantis team where it hurts. They handled the whole Michael situation very poorly.
Coolies..fellow Antropology student..but I also strongly follow the Hobbesian ideals. Sheppard was doing what he could do..and hwen you get betrayed by the wraith---and there's no way of really reasoning with the wraith. Or being friends..how do you expect to feed this wraith?! Allow him to feed on a few people...then how much bette are we?! I say Sheppard was in the right. I was a bit turned off by Ronon's bluntness about it..but they are casualties of war..and there's no way to make sure the ones who are human really will believe us and trust us...or turn on us.

I hadn't thought about it like that, but you're right. We would at least give bin Ladin a trial, as we have with Saddam Hussein.
A trial...that's funny. A trial where he was already guilty from the first without any proof to the contrary. So it would be a trial where he's guilty and then it's around until he's proven guilty. Laden of course, with humiliation and torture on the side, as well as all other forms of abuse that we, the people, don't know about. I think that's so much better. :mckay:

PG15
July 23rd, 2006, 07:17 PM
Ooh that is a little too hot button issue you are brave. :cool:

I just didn't want to use Hitler since it would violate Godwin's Law. ;)

And there wasn't much time for a trial. At that moment it was either ethics or the lives of a lot of people.

Black Arts Ocelot
July 23rd, 2006, 07:29 PM
One thing to keep in mind in this is who's idea it was in the first place. With their ship heavily damaged, everyone had this "we're screwed" look about them. What does Michael lay out there? The retrovirus! Also, let's not forget that the whole mess started when Mr. "The Retrovirus is wrong, I am not a disease" suggested to his bretheren that they ally with their foes/food source and obtain this virus so that they could turn around and change/devour the rest of their own species. No wonder the other Wraith thought he was crazy.

And let's not forget poor Lathan. One would think that Michael could have pulled his "brother" in, told him he was right, and brought him up to speed on the game plan. They were on the exact same wavelength. They just needed him to play it cool for a little bit. But...well, why reason with someone when you can break his neck, right?

And our great revolutionary has so little regard for those he literally calls brothers as to pass off over a hundred of them as humans and have them offered up as cattle to their own species, just so that he can make a getaway.

Now...I list Michael's evil actions to illustrate a point. These "poor souls" in question were just other Michaels. You wouldn't want to be anywhere near them if they went a couple of days off their meds, lest you find yourself on the dinner menu. If the hive had been vaporized with a nuke instead of gassed noone would have cared. Likewise, if the entire colony had reverted and not just 30, noone would care. Killing Wraith is considered acceptable. Why are our heroes suddenly villified because the Wraith in question were a little confused at the time? Sure, they had amnesia. What lead them there?

Oh, that's right, their own plan to feign interest in the retrovirus in an attempt to cull Earth. One episode ago these "innocents" had one thing on their minds- feeding freely on the entire human populace. A few missed injections, and that's pretty much what they would go back to doing.

And while I'm on the subject, what's with Ronon-bashing for not liking Michael? Is it really so bad that he stunned the guy so he could be injected? What did Michael and co. do to him and Rodney? Stunned them. Stuck them in the wall. Their future basically leading to gruesome death.

Evil life-sucking aliens with amnesia are still evil life sucking aliens. How about this. The good guys take the moral high ground by scoffing at Michael's suggestion to use the only weapon they had on hand. They drift, venting atmosphere, until they die. The Wraith repair their hive ship and continue on to cull Earth. I suppose that would be a better ending?

smushybird
July 23rd, 2006, 07:32 PM
It just keeps on coming back to the writers to me, around and around in circles I ask 'what were they trying to tell us?' 'What moral message are we to take from this?'

Are we suppose to agree with the heroes, are we suppose to hate the heroes, are we suppose to agree that 'war is bad' or 'people make mistakes...again' because when I stick one of those reasons, another scene appears and it contradicts. It's all over the damn place.

And the line about the 'international distrust of the American military' I don't know how to take that one, was it ironic, was it making a point about how those silly 'international folk don't appreciate the American Military like they should OMG'

I'm very confused. And it does frustrate me.

I think the storyline wasn't thought out as thoroughly as it could have been, with all the ramifications involved. :( And in the writers' zeal to try and emulate BSG's harsh, dark stories (which I personally can't stomach on a regular basis, so I quit watching BSG altogether), they went too far overboard in trying to take the shiny edge off SGA's heroes. I think they may have succeeded in turning them into people increasingly difficult to root for.

Real life is harsh and sucky enough. On an escapist show, the last thing I want to see are my heroes behaving like the type of person who ends up behind bars in a max security prison or in the White House. :/

expendable_crewman
July 23rd, 2006, 07:38 PM
We've blown up hiveships full of Wraith before, why should this time be any different?Weapons were off line.


Dress a wolf in sheepskin and it's still a wolf. If you're worried about it attacking the flock, just kill it, don't try and convince it that it goes "baa" and eats grass.We're no longer debating the story here. The story was the space battle was a draw, with the hive ship doing better life-support-wise. The Daedalus had the retro gas on board. The gas was on board because Beckett (initially) came up with the idea that if the Wraith stopped depending on humans for food, the Wraith would be nicer at community picnics. The gas was a better delivery system than a needle. Unforunately, the gas failed to address mental health disorders and general poor social habits. It also failed to address bonding issues among the Wraith, even inside contained Wraith communities.

According to the story, the humans were apparently too oxygen-deprived to think of gassing the hive ship on their own. The only Wraith on the Daedalus had to suggest it.

After gassing, the Wraith did go "baa" and eat grass. Secondary effect.

The main point of using the gas was to incapacitate the hive ship's Wraith crew to make the ship safe for humans to breathe its atmosphere and pilot it homeward.

Let's have a show of hands. Would it have been an appropriate military action and morally right to free the rest of the expedition from dealing with the "baa-ing" Wraith by shoving 200 beings out of the airlock before going to hyperdrive? How do you assign that job? Is it the crewman who draws the short stick or the long stick?

As weapons were off line and the Daedalus had no life support, sending the gas wasn't about fixing the Wraith. I suspect we were given that story to show that the Daedalus crew (post-"Michael") no longer considered the retrovirus an appropriate tool for improving human-Wraith relations in the PG.