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Black Arts Ocelot
July 23rd, 2006, 07:57 PM
Let's have a show of hands. Would it have been an appropriate military action and morally right to free the rest of the expedition from dealing with the "baa-ing" Wraith by shoving 200 beings out of the airlock before going to hyperdrive? How do you assign that job? Is it the crewman who draws the short stick or the long stick?

As weapons were off line and the Daedalus had no life support, sending the gas wasn't about fixing the Wraith. I suspect we were given that story to show that the Daedalus crew (post-"Michael") no longer considered the retrovirus an appropriate tool for improving human-Wraith relations in the PG.

Considering that females are to be gunned down and noone bats an eyelash, I think the "sucks for you if you weren't affected" attitude further supports that the retrovirus is not a humane "cure" for poor Wraith. It's biological warfare. One could actually draw paralells to the weaponized form of the cure in X-Men 3. The issue being, "is it wrong to alter someones identity, enemy or no, to save yourself?" In the case of the Wraith I think it should at least send a message that if you want to keep that sense of self, STOP TRYING TO EAT US.

OutThere
July 23rd, 2006, 08:10 PM
I wrote this:

I agree with that assessment of Michael. He stated clearly in NML that his motive was survival. It appears he will do anything to survive, including murder any wraith or humans that are in his way. Definitely not a guy to trust.

To which Willow'sCat replied:

And he is so different from us... how? :mckay: I find that argument a little dismissive of our guys behaviour.

It is an easy out for almost anything you would do to him. Hey he is just out for himself, to survive... well duh aren't we all in the end and isn't that the "neat" little message this ep was sending.

Screw morals lets just do what keeps us alive. Hell yeah! :rolleyes:

I'm not dismissing Atlantis's behavior. I'm also not seeing how the argument that Michael is untrustworthy automatically adds up to my being dismissive of Atlantis's behavior. Michael is untrustworthy. He will betray and murder to get what he wants.

Certainly this episode was meant to draw parallels and contrasts between how Michael and the Wraith deal with their situation, and the actions of our team. The title the PTB gave this episode pretty much sums it up: "Misbegotten". We should have never gone down that retovirus road. It was a bad idea to start with, it was immoral, and it failed miserably.

So how is Michael different from us? I think there is a big difference between killing in self defense, and killing to survive. Let's say there's a human guy named Floyd, and he has a bad heart. If Floyd doesn't get a heart transplant, he'll die. It turns out that Old Man Jenkins across the street would be a compatible heart donor, but he doesn't look to be giving it up voluntarily any time soon, so Floyd pops over to Jenkins house and bashes his head in with a hammer.

Soon Floyd has his new heart, and all is right with the world.

Except now his kidneys are going, and nice Mrs. Brown who lives down the road with her husband and three kids would make the perfect donor....

So, Floyd needs to kill Old Man Jenkins and Mrs. Brown in order to survive. But he doesn't have the right to do so. They are not a threat to him, their deaths would devestate their families, their lives do not belong to Floyd (not one, not two, not ten or a hundred) to dispose of as he sees fit, even to save his own life.

Now, killing to defend oneself against someone trying to kill you is another matter. So if Floyd shows up at the Browns' house to bash Mrs. Brown's head in with a hammer, and Mrs. Brown takes exception and stabs the poor just trying to survive bloke to death with a paring knife-- well, too bad for Floyd, killing isn't nice but she both needed to do it and she had the right to do it, to protect herself.

Of course, the scenario could have gone down slightly different. Floyd could have shown up at her house and tried to bash her head in with a hammer, only to have her fight back so furiously that he ends up killing her by throwing her out the window instead. Then he can take comfort in it being self defense on his part, because it's all her fault for fighting back. :rolleyes: (I'm being specious here, just wanted to make that clear)

Anyway, my post is getting too long and stupider by the minute. I suppose I really need to construct a scenario whereby Mrs. Brown hears ahead of time about Floyd's plan, and tries to cut him off at the pass by unwisely building a high voltage fence to fry him when he gets near but ends up zapping stray dogs and little children by mistake, but I'm getting bored of Floyd and Mrs. Brown at this point, so I'll give it up here.

I think one of the problems that our people had is that they weren't willing to murder Michael or the Wraith-human prisoners, even though that would have been the convenient solution. So everything went to hell, and people died, and a hive ship was moving in. Then killing the Wraith and wraith-humans on the planet became a necessity.

None of that excuses the utter stupidity and immorality of the original genetic experiment. But none of Atlantis's actions excuse Michael or the Wraith for what they do either.

I've been enjoying the moral debate this episode has spawned. I just hope the writers keep in mind that the characters are going to have to live with all these questionable moral decisions, and I hope the characters will abandon the retrovirus idea from this point on.

ShadowMaat
July 23rd, 2006, 08:51 PM
Weapons were off line.
They were put into stasis for the trip back to Atlantis. Blow 'em up with some of the drones. Beam up some nukes. Whatever.

And you may be able to teach a wolf to baa, but eventually it's going to howl again. You can't change a creature's nature, especially not when the change is unwilling and you spend all your time lying about it. So... kill it right from the start. Save yourself the trouble and spare the wolf your lies.

Ouroboros
July 23rd, 2006, 09:45 PM
It just keeps on coming back to the writers to me, around and around in circles I ask 'what were they trying to tell us?' 'What moral message are we to take from this?'

Are we suppose to agree with the heroes, are we suppose to hate the heroes, are we suppose to agree that 'war is bad' or 'people make mistakes...again' because when I stick one of those reasons, another scene appears and it contradicts. It's all over the damn place.

And the line about the 'international distrust of the American military' I don't know how to take that one, was it ironic, was it making a point about how those silly 'international folk don't appreciate the American Military like they should OMG'

I'm very confused. And it does frustrate me.

Yeah it's the same thing for me.

Perfect example from this episode.

They give Michael this little speach about how turning him human and erasing his memories mind as well be killing him because he will no longer exist. That's something I agreed with and Teyla seemed to even be thinking it over.

Ok so I fugure, alright finally they're going to actually take an honest look at what they're doing to these people/Wraith from an ethical perspective, 'bout time.

Then Dex just walks in and stuns him and Beckett turns him into a human.

WTF!?

Did I miss the part where they explained why this was now ok desite what Mike had said about it murdering him, or were we supposed to see it as, yeah ok so I guess they just murdered him then?

Then at the end even after all they've put him through Michael still doesn't murder Beckett even though it would be ridiculously easy and arguably completely justified for both practical and emotional reasons.

Then at the end we're supposed to believe that Michael was the badguy in all this?

It's almost impossible to weigh the sides here and come to that conclusion on your own without the episode trying to spoon feed it to you contrary to what the story actually showed.

It almost feels like this episode was written by two or more people that had very different ideas about what it was supposed to mean and be about.


When Teyla came to Michael, he said that he can't believe they were holding him prisioner after all he had done for them. He did nothing for the Atlantis team. He was saving his own life. He turned over an entire hive ship to save himself, because he wanted to live, not because he wanted to help the Atlantis team. Now he is trying to twist the issue and manipulate Teyla into feeling sorry for him. Even telling her to kill him now.

Whether his motives for defection were mainly self preservation or not it doesn't change the fact that they still owed him big.

If he hadn't helped them all escape the hive and deactivated the jamming code they would literally all have been dead.

Just about everything the SGA team does is motivated by self preservation to, including attempting to kill those 200 people with orbital strikes because they were too incompetant to handle the situation with them properly from day one. "Oh sorry guys, the situation we placed you in against your will has suddenly become really bad for us, enjoy the megatons. Next time maybe you shouldn't try to get uppity and escape our science fair, and just put up with us remaking your entire bodies to suit our best interests like you're supposed to instead."

I've said it before with the first episode that featured this and I'll say it again here. If you're having trouble seeing how utterly wrong this whole thing was just switch the sides around. Take 200 humans and have a group of Wraith try to turn them into Wraith against their will, then murder them all with orbital strikes when they screw it up.

As for him needing to offer some of his own men up as sacrifices to the hive in order to escape, who created the whole situation with a bunch of desperate prisoners mutated against their will and under constant threat of Nuclear extermination at the first sign of trouble? Trouble being defined as simply trying to resist the warped science experiment they were all being subjected to. Oh that's right. :D

PG15
July 23rd, 2006, 10:00 PM
I guess the message is "nobody's perfect"

That, or there was no message, just a simple story...like a lot of other Stargate episodes.

Ouroboros
July 23rd, 2006, 10:07 PM
My point here in response to all this talk about how they should have made Michael an ally is this - how is he going to eat? The guy is a WRAITH - he needs to eat human beings to stay alive. But you want to make him an ally, keep him around on Atlantis or even send him out into the galaxy with a ship and your blessing "Off you go, Mikey boy. Thanks for all your help, here's a ship, go eat as many humans as you like and oh, by the way, please don't tell anyone about Atlantis, okay? Pretty please?"

That is indeed the main problem but I don't think it's an insurmountable one. Not in a land where you can turn one species into another with a syringe.

The first thing I would try to do with him and his Wraith buddies is get all the top minds together and try to find a way for them to sustain themselves without feeding on humans. Get Hermiod involved to. Their scientists are going to know a lot more about how their feeding process works than anyone else so if there's ever going to be a way to do this it's going to work a lot better with their help.

Since they're already starting to see humans in a new light they're going to be more receptive to the idea than normal Wraith likely would.

As for the meantime you could revert them back to humans with the drug, feed them human food, and then let them turn back to Wraith. If that doesn't work you could keep them as humans but with full knowledge of what they're supposed to be this time.

I honestly suspect that given the loss of memory telling them that they're actually vicious lifesucking aliens we had to turn human might cause some of them to want to stay human out of fear rather than "turn into a monster".

Worst case scenario we use Asguard cloning tech to feed them human blanks like the Asguard blank those corperate guys made and put on TV. Since it doesn't really have a functioning mind you're not really killing a sentient anymore. You could even make them look like celebrities you hate.

It's nice to have a network of allies.:D

If you got a viable alternate food source to you could use it as a bargaining chip to any of the weaker Wraith tribes who're suffering under the starvation the most. You could force them to fork over all kinds of stuff if they were really starving, ships, weapons, tech, info you name it.


And then you want to do this with 200 Wraith? It doesn't matter how nice you are to them or how you might think they might empathise with humans after having been one for a while. THEY EAT HUMANS TO LIVE. They will continue to eat humans to live. And yes, whilst they may have been sympathetic as humans, it's pretty clear that once they DO start to revert to Wraith form, all that empathy is out the window and they are just like any other Wraith; they want to eat and they want you dead. You're not an ally to them, you're a food source.

This isn't really true. You can see in a couple scenes in allies that even after Mike reverts back to a Wraith he still harbors thoughts about how similar our two species really are. He also goes out of his way not to kill Teyla at the end of the original Michael episode despite all the torments they've inflicted on him.


And what makes you think Michael is so darn trustworthy? Sure, he betrayed his own hive to help Shep and co. He certainly didn't do that because he's their friend.

It's in his and their best interest to team up with us if we're offering it.

They're essentially caught between worlds. The wraith don't want them, he knows that, but if the other side, humanity, shows that we're willing to give them a chance we become natural allies.

200 Wraith that the other Wraith hate are not going to last very long on their own without cutting some sort of deal with someone. I suspect he knows this already. They'd be massively useful to Earth to.

For example if we're really worried about them screwing us over and ratting out Atlantis to the other Wraith there's a really easy way to solve that problem. Move them to the milkyway galaxy instead.

What I'd personally love to do in that situation would be mod their hive with some Asguard shields/tech and put about 1000 human troops on it in a combined Wraith/human crew so they can't expect to succeed in any mutiny they might attempt. It would be really easy to sell this to them to since the hive needs big crew and we only have 200 Wraith to use.

After that's all done with you use the refitted hive to send the Ori a message. A hiveship with asguard level shields that scale in power to it's massive size should actually give those toiletseats of theirs something to really get nervous about. Going by how the 304s held up it wouldn't be out of the question for a hive modded the same way to take something like 50+ deathbeam hits to kill its shields off. You also give it beaming tech so that when it disables an Ori ship you can beam off some of the Ori troops for the Wraith to feed on. That might sound evil at first but since we were going to blow them up anyway I don't see how it's any different really.

You could also fly the hive back to Pegasus at some point and bulldoze the other Wraith with it or use its transporters and the Wraith crew's knowledge of their own tech to hasten the defeat of the jamming codes so we could convert more Wraith into human/Wraith inbetweens with the gas, and add to our modded hiveship fleet.

That's just one possible use for them to.

The insights they would give us into Wraith technology, politics and general goings on would greatly aid Earth in fighting them in Pegasus or potentially even making more alliances.

bluealien
July 24th, 2006, 01:24 AM
Okay I just got to reply to that. There's been so much discussion on here about how mean the team were to Michael and the human Wraith etc etc and yeah, I do get that and I think it was a really harsh, dark decision to do that to Michael but I can see how they felt they had no choice.

My point here in response to all this talk about how they should have made Michael an ally is this - how is he going to eat? The guy is a WRAITH - he needs to eat human beings to stay alive. But you want to make him an ally, keep him around on Atlantis or even send him out into the galaxy with a ship and your blessing "Off you go, Mikey boy. Thanks for all your help, here's a ship, go eat as many humans as you like and oh, by the way, please don't tell anyone about Atlantis, okay? Pretty please?"

And then you want to do this with 200 Wraith? It doesn't matter how nice you are to them or how you might think they might empathise with humans after having been one for a while. THEY EAT HUMANS TO LIVE. They will continue to eat humans to live. And yes, whilst they may have been sympathetic as humans, it's pretty clear that once they DO start to revert to Wraith form, all that empathy is out the window and they are just like any other Wraith; they want to eat and they want you dead. You're not an ally to them, you're a food source.

Can you seriously see the SGA team - or the IOA - agreeing to set 200+ Wraith (with the knowledge of Atlantis' existence) free to roam the galaxy killing humans?

And what makes you think Michael is so darn trustworthy? Sure, he betrayed his own hive to help Shep and co. He certainly didn't do that because he's their friend. He said himself he did it because he wanted to stay alive and sooner or later the queen was going to get rid of him. Would you trust a guy who essentially helped murder thousands of his own kind (as you say, possibly his own family really) to not turn on the people who had already, in his view, tortured him once? Michael wants to survive. If he thought betraying Atlantis would give him a better chance of survival, he'd do it in a heartbeat.

Comparing the captured Wraith to the Tok'ra or the free Jaffa nation etc is specious - those cultures don't view humans as food. You cannot make any kind of lasting, trustworthy alliance with a species/culture that sees you as dinner.

Well Michael turned on the Wraith because they were going to kill him. What is so different about Sheppard turning of Ford because he was trying to kill him. Its a matter of survival. He didn't really seem on best buddy terms with any of Wraith on the ship anyway.. But the fact that we are all forgetting even before he helped Sheppard he WANTED an alliance with the humans. He saw this as a means to help both races. It was the Queen who betrayed him as well.


If Sheppard and Atlantis are going to continually hate and Wraith and NEVER trust them - then what - they continue to hope that not more than one or two hive ships comes by and keep crossing their fingers that the Wraith will not find out that Atlantis is still intact.

If the team continues going through the gate each week don't you think it wont take long for the Wraith to find out that they are from Atlantis. They have encountered enough human settlements who seem to know that Atlantis has not been destroyed.

The Wraith will keep sending Hive Ships and how long can Atlantis or McKay keep coming up with "brilliant" plans to keep them at bay. This didn't work for the ancients so will it work for the Atlantis team.

Who knows how long Michael could have lasted without feeding - I do believe that they can survive on animal life forms. Why doesn't Carson start working on a way to find an alternative feeding source for them. If the guy is clever enough to create a retrovirus that can completley change them into humans then is it really impossible that he could come up with some alternative feeding solutions.


Michael was willing to form an alliance with Atlantis. It was the Queen who betrayed him as well. So if one Wraith was willing to do this there could be more - so are we willing to say that we NEVER put aside our hatred for them look for another solution besides trying to fend off each Hive ship that arrives at their doorstep. Sure they have been bitten once but not by Michael and considering the stakes here wasn't it in their best interest to make an attempt to talk to him at least. We get Teylas few minutes and of course Ronan who can't seem to focus on anything but his hatred of him.


So unless there is some sort of compromise both sides will continue to do whatever it takes to survive and that basically is continueing to kill each other. And as we have seen humans are willing to go to any lenghts to achieve this and so are the Wraith so in the end there isn't really a lot of difference between them.

Alipeeps
July 24th, 2006, 02:12 AM
This debate is going round and round in circles and I think we're just gonna have to agree to disagree as it seems to be an utterly polarising issue with no middle ground. You think the Wraith can be made allies, I don't.

Gotta reply however to two quick points in there for which there is an easy, quick answer:



If the team continues going through the gate each week don't you think it wont take long for the Wraith to find out that they are from Atlantis. They have encountered enough human settlements who seem to know that Atlantis has not been destroyed.

Ever since Siege III the Atlantis team have continued to travel through the gate and to visit other worlds... but, aside from a few trusted allies like the Athosians etc, they have not been telling people they came from Atlantis. In fact, they have been specifically telling people that they escaped the city's destruction and are now based elsewhere (I think it was possibly Coup d'Etat where Sheppard told Cowen "We have a new address now"). To the best of my knowledge it is only the Genii who know (or suspected, until it was confirmed) that Atlantis survived... and that's primarily because they have a huge network of spies.



Who knows how long Michael could have lasted without feeding - I do believe that they can survive on animal life forms. Why doesn't Carson start working on a way to find an alternative feeding source for them. If the guy is clever enough to create a retrovirus that can completley change them into humans then is it really impossible that he could come up with some alternative feeding solutions.

I'm pretty sure the Wraith cannot survive on animal life forms. Sheppard tried that with Steve way back in Poisoning the Well but apparently only human life would do.

Lokii
July 24th, 2006, 04:49 AM
I thought this was a good episode also.

I just don't understand why they did not give michael a chance. He has a pretty good incentive to want to hurt the wraith. But then again, who would they let him feed on?

Alipeeps
July 24th, 2006, 04:58 AM
I thought this was a good episode also.

I just don't understand why they did not give michael a chance. He has a pretty good incentive to want to hurt the wraith. But then again, who would they let him feed on?

Precisely. My point entirely and the reason why, much as I do find it hard to accept their betrayal of him, I can understand why they felt they had to do that.

Linzi
July 24th, 2006, 05:11 AM
Wow! After reading this thread I don't know what I can add.
I enjoyed Misbegotten very much. It wasn't perfect, as there never seems enough time to develop everything sufficiently for me, but it was great entertainment, throwing up all sorts of ethical questions. That's what a good story does, in my opinion.
I came away from the episode believing that the team did the only thing they could do. They eliminated possible hostiles who would endanger Earth and Atlantis. What else could they have done? Left the Wraith/humans there to go back to the new Hive and divulge all they knew? That would never be allowed by any military power.
This whole mess was a disaster waiting to happen after the events of Michael. A number of poor decisions were made then, and now everyone has paid for that.
Do I feel sorry for Michael? No. What was done to him in the first place is questionable. However, should he have been allowed to leave Atlantis as a Wraith, when he couldn't be trusted? No. That WOULD have been stupid. The Atlantis team couldn't let him go wandering around, and he would need to eat. He doesn't want to become human he wants to be what he is, a Wraith. Therefore he's the enemy of humans, as he wants and needs to eat them. He also said he wanted to live. I believe he'd have betrayed anyone to survive, so to say the team let him down doesn't wash with me. He'd have betrayed them easily if he didn't think the Wraith queen was going to kill him.
Tough decisions are made by the military all the time, and unless I am in charge, presented with the facts, and have to make a decision I can't say Sheppard or anyone else did anything wrong.
I didn't think Sheppard was gung-ho or hard here. He was being a professional military man. That means you put your feelings aside to protect and do your job. He did this. In this case, he ordered the Wraith/humans to be killed rather than risk Atlantis and Earth being compromised. He would have been demoted by the military for not taking that decision, IMO. He looked uncomfortable making that decision, but it had to be done. How would he have looked if he had been indecisive, or weeping into McKay's jacket? He is military commander, and if anyone thinks Caldwell would have ordered differently, then I would say, I really don't think so. Sheppard distanced himself emotionally from the situation and acted like a professional military man, IMO. Emotions can't get in the way of life and death decisions. I'm just glad I don't have to make them.
Moral debate aside, I liked the team reunion. I liked McKay's 'hungry' joke. That was well timed and really sweet.
My one beef, is that Woolsey was too nice at the end. When has that man ever been so supportive and nice?
The scene between Sheppard and Weir was nice, though, sorry, I really didn't see anything other than an amused Atlantis leader, who was touched her military commander and friend stuck up for her, and a very angry millitary man, who didn't like his bosses, or his own decisions being questioned by a pencil pusher. Nice scene though.
All in all, a great second episode. I enjoyed it very much, and love the moral debate that has ensued.

prion
July 24th, 2006, 05:20 AM
I don't like how cool everyone is with Woolsey lying to the IOA.

Maybe it's because it's what the US gov't does best... :(

prion
July 24th, 2006, 05:22 AM
Big question, simple one: Where was Christopher Hyerdahl? He was credited in the credits for this episodes, and he played Halling in previous episodes and wow, you just can't miss a guy that tall and I did not see him at all.

Oh, and finally figured out the bald wraiths. Duh. They're the cabbage head guards (as I call 'em). So, I'm guessing when they revert to 'human', their hair falls off, sheds, something.

Oka
July 24th, 2006, 07:08 AM
The whole idea of the retrovirus is repulsive, talk about crossing the line. Fine, I understand their motive for using it, but instead of treating the wraiths-in-human-form they should've let them revert back to wraith form and blown em to bits. Oh yeah, stop feeling sorry for Michael he's a mass murdering a-hole and should die for what he has done.

travis
July 24th, 2006, 07:34 AM
Wow! After reading this thread I don't know what I can add.
I enjoyed Misbegotten very much. It wasn't perfect, as there never seems enough time to develop everything sufficiently for me, but it was great entertainment, throwing up all sorts of ethical questions. That's what a good story does, in my opinion.
I came away from the episode believing that the team did the only thing they could do. They eliminated possible hostiles who would endanger Earth and Atlantis. What else could they have done? Left the Wraith/humans there to go back to the new Hive and divulge all they knew? That would never be allowed by any military power.
This whole mess was a disaster waiting to happen after the events of Michael. A number of poor decisions were made then, and now everyone has paid for that.
Do I feel sorry for Michael? No. What was done to him in the first place is questionable. However, should he have been allowed to leave Atlantis as a Wraith, when he couldn't be trusted? No. That WOULD have been stupid. The Atlantis team couldn't let him go wandering around, and he would need to eat. He doesn't want to become human he wants to be what he is, a Wraith. Therefore he's the enemy of humans, as he wants and needs to eat them. He also said he wanted to live. I believe he'd have betrayed anyone to survive, so to say the team let him down doesn't wash with me. He'd have betrayed them easily if he didn't think the Wraith queen was going to kill him.
Tough decisions are made by the military all the time, and unless I am in charge, presented with the facts, and have to make a decision I can't say Sheppard or anyone else did anything wrong.
I didn't think Sheppard was gung-ho or hard here. He was being a professional military man. That means you put your feelings aside to protect and do your job. He did this. In this case, he ordered the Wraith/humans to be killed rather than risk Atlantis and Earth being compromised. He would have been demoted by the military for not taking that decision, IMO. He looked uncomfortable making that decision, but it had to be done. How would he have looked if he had been indecisive, or weeping into McKay's jacket? He is military commander, and if anyone thinks Caldwell would have ordered differently, then I would say, I really don't think so. Sheppard distanced himself emotionally from the situation and acted like a professional military man, IMO. Emotions can't get in the way of life and death decisions. I'm just glad I don't have to make them.
Moral debate aside, I liked the team reunion. I liked McKay's 'hungry' joke. That was well timed and really sweet.
My one beef, is that Woolsey was too nice at the end. When has that man ever been so supportive and nice?
The scene between Sheppard and Weir was nice, though, sorry, I really didn't see anything other than an amused Atlantis leader, who was touched her military commander and friend stuck up for her, and a very angry millitary man, who didn't like his bosses, or his own decisions being questioned by a pencil pusher. Nice scene though.
All in all, a great second episode. I enjoyed it very much, and love the moral debate that has ensued.
Thank you Linzimy thoughts exactly I'm just to lazy to write my own as you has conveyed it pretty much how I saw this ep.

befor watching this ep I read every ones post I began to have doubt myself but was suprise to really enjoy this ep.

I guess I don't have the same trouble as other fans are having with issues regarding this ep as I thought it was left for other great story possibility and the fact that I'm easily pleased regards to Atlantis.
Some time I think with all the issues going on in the world and some time the struggle of day to day life, its nice to have this kind of entertainment to escape to and enjoy.
To be honest with all the flaws that fans have pointed out about this show regarding the ethical issues, stupidity of the expetdition team, Weirs leadership and etc. At least their excuse is that this is after all a TV show, but whats the excuse for the Real World out there and the leaders of the worlds out there.:)

macktheknife
July 24th, 2006, 07:45 AM
Big question, simple one: Where was Christopher Hyerdahl? He was credited in the credits for this episodes, and he played Halling in previous episodes and wow, you just can't miss a guy that tall and I did not see him at all.


Wraith? Background? I know I did not see him (at least recognisable) both times I watched it.

bluealien
July 24th, 2006, 08:01 AM
I agree that because of the situation that the team found themselves in AGAIN - there wasn't really much they could do about saving the Wraith and I don't think Sheppard had any other choice in doing what he did.

But my argument is that if NO ONE is willing to take a step back and try and come up with some sort of compromise - either puttting their heads together and finding a feeding solution for the Wraith or at least trying to find out a bit more about Wraith weakness or some knowlege of their society then how can they ever hope to defeat the Wraith. How can Atlantis continue to defend Atlantis if 20 Hive Ships arrive at their door. How can they stand up to such firepower with only one ship.


Michael gave them this opportunity and it doesn't really matter how he arrived at that point - a lot of it of course was because of what the retrovirus did to him. Now the one good thing that could have come about with having Michael turned into a human was that for the first time he could see humans as something more than just food.

He was willling to form an alliance with them -- he trusted them enough to offer up a solution to both their problems so how can we say that you should never trust a Wraith . He didn't know that the Queen was going to betray both of them. But he did prove that he was willing to work with the humans but they are not prepared to do the same.


I don't see Michael as being a mass murderer - if he is a mass murderer then so is Sheppard and his team. Sheppard did not kill in self defense when he killed Steve (or was it bob) - he murdered him. Again I could understand why he did- he let his concern for Teyla and his hatred for the Wraith take over.

But how long can they continue to hold the Wraith back - and again who said they needed to let Michael roam around Atlantis - hopefully they would put better security measures in place. And we really don't know how long Michael can last without feeding - but is it really impossible to say that there would be no temporary solution to his feeding requirements that Beckett could come up with. It was at least something that could have been considered.

Oka
July 24th, 2006, 08:16 AM
You can't murder Wraith. You can kill them though.

Heaven
July 24th, 2006, 10:05 AM
just wondering...
do you think they at least got the wraith database from the hive now?

areghnatha
July 24th, 2006, 11:27 AM
And then you want to do this with 200 Wraith? It doesn't matter how nice you are to them or how you might think they might empathise with humans after having been one for a while. THEY EAT HUMANS TO LIVE. They will continue to eat humans to live. And yes, whilst they may have been sympathetic as humans, it's pretty clear that once they DO start to revert to Wraith form, all that empathy is out the window and they are just like any other Wraith; they want to eat and they want you dead. You're not an ally to them, you're a food source.

Can you seriously see the SGA team - or the IOA - agreeing to set 200+ Wraith (with the knowledge of Atlantis' existence) free to roam the galaxy killing humans?


Maybe you find some volunteers...
Many people commit suicide on this planet (I have lost a good friend who commited suicide, so please do not blame me for this idea). These people want to die, because of several reasons and the Wraith need humans as food source. Why not asking people with suicidal tendencies, if they would give their live a last sense in letting a Wraith feed upon him/her...

Alipeeps
July 24th, 2006, 12:10 PM
Maybe you find some volunteers...
Many people commit suicide on this planet (I have lost a good friend who commited suicide, so please do not blame me for this idea). These people want to die, because of several reasons and the Wraith need humans as food source. Why not asking people with suicidal tendencies, if they would give their live a last sense in letting a Wraith feed upon him/her...

You're seriously suggesting asking for suicidal volunteers to feed themselves to the Wraith as a solution? Aside from the fact that most cultures try to talk people out of suicidal impulses, aside from the fact that all the Atlantis expedition members would have had to pass strict medical and psychological tests before being accepted on the mission and anyone suicidal would have been ruled out, even if you did want to kill yourself... would you choose to do so by having the life painfully sucked out of you?!!

There's just so much wrong with that idea that it makes the discussion of the moral choices of the SGA team in this ep pale in comparison.

areghnatha
July 24th, 2006, 12:46 PM
I am not suggesting that as a final solution, of course it is not a sollution!

As you know, I would like have seen Michael as an ally. As a Wraith he needs humans as a food source. But for a short time he was a human. Maybe he would accept other food, if Dr. Beckett finds a way to change his DNA in that way, that he is able to live from human food. And giving him volunteers until Dr. Beckett has a solution would stall time. Of course this is moralic questionable...

If I would be a volunteer?
I do not know. Maybe... if they promise me that it would not hurt too much and it would not take too long... then I would thinking of giving some years of my livetime to a Wraith (In "The Defiant One" the Wraith made clear, that he is able to control, how many years he takes and how long this would take).

The thing I hate most on the retrovirus is that it wipes the memory of the person out.

Linzi
July 24th, 2006, 01:00 PM
I am not suggesting that as a final solution, of course it is not a sollution!

As you know, I would like have seen Michael as an ally. As a Wraith he needs humans as a food source. But for a short time he was a human. Maybe he would accept other food, if Dr. Beckett finds a way to change his DNA in that way, that he is able to live from human food. And giving him volunteers until Dr. Beckett has a solution would stall time. Of course this is moralic questionable...

If I would be a volunteer?
I do not know. Maybe... if they promise me that it would not hurt too much and it would not take too long... then I would thinking of giving some years of my livetime to a Wraith (In "The Defiant One" the Wraith made clear, that he is able to control, how many years he takes and how long this would take).

The thing I hate most on the retrovirus is that it wipes the memory of the person out.
Michael doesn't WANT to be altered in any way. He states he wants to be what he is - a Wraith, therefore he wouldn't allow Beckett to tamper with his DNA anymore than has happened already. We know the Wraith only can eat humans, and Michael physically couldn't eat anything else.
You'd seriously offer yourself up as sacrifice to feed a Wraith? Well, I wouldn't, because I want to live. If it came down to me and a Wraith, my survival instinct would kill him if I was able to every time. Would I enjoy it? No. Would I do it to live? Yes. I'd kill one even more readily to protect someone else, especially one of my children.
The retro virus was a mistake. However, it was thought that it would be a more humane way of disposing them, but ultimately, yes, it was a biological weapon to ensure the survival of humans, whether one agrees with that or not is another matter.
So, the retro virus wipes Wraith's memories. It wasn't designed to do that, it's just a side effect. So what? Would it be better to have a group of de-Wraithified Wraith who remembered everything? I doubt it. As the memory wiping was beyond the control of anyone anyway it's a moot point.

expendable_crewman
July 24th, 2006, 02:09 PM
They were put into stasis for the trip back to Atlantis. Blow 'em up with some of the drones. Beam up some nukes. Whatever.

And you may be able to teach a wolf to baa, but eventually it's going to howl again. You can't change a creature's nature, especially not when the change is unwilling and you spend all your time lying about it. So... kill it right from the start. Save yourself the trouble and spare the wolf your lies.Lol, sounds like you and Sheppard have a lot in common.

I agree with Black-Arts. The gas was no longer being considered an antidote to Wraith-ness but as a means for the queen to convert enemy hive crews to food. Such was the deal Atlantis made with the Wraith queen. It might have been interesting to see what the crew did with Michael if they had returned with Michael alone ... no other Waiths. Shot him? Leting him go was not an option. No matter what deals Atlantis was willing to make with him, I doubt Atlantis was willing to let the Pegasus Galaxy pay the bill.

ShadowMaat
July 24th, 2006, 02:27 PM
Lol, sounds like you and Sheppard have a lot in common.
That's one of the messages the show was trying to convey to us: tigers don't change their stripes. Neither do humans, for that matter. They're still a buch of stupid, heartless monsters who're more interested in looking good than taking the necessary steps to honestly selp someone.

I would be more in favor of serious rehabilitation measures and full disclosure to the victims of the retrovirus, but since Team Atlantis is too arrogant stupid genocidal ...poorly written, that's never going to happen. The only humane alternative, IMO, is to kill them. Simple. Honest. Fast. And if they're in stasis when it happens they might not even wake up. At least the victims won't suffer for weeks of gnawing doubts about themselves, confusion over what happened, and frustration over the restrictions placed on them by their so-called benefactors.

Cassian
July 24th, 2006, 02:39 PM
Hi, I am new here. Though I have been lurking around for years in forums like this just to see what people say. I got a bit caught up with this whole Michael arc after this episode. I have to break it into bits since its long but it makes sense, I think….

It does have me confused. Actually I have not watched the episode because I wanted to read people’s views on it first and after reading this thread, I was tempted not watch it at all.

But I did. Manage to whole off a good 40 hours or so… ? And this is my very long winded opinion. The whole Weir/Woolsey plot line was pointless. Don’t get me wrong, I actually love Robert Picardo and kinda warmed up to his character after the SG-1 bug episode when he yelled back at the IOA guy to shut up several times in the end but that plot was still pointless. Yes, Weir will need to be answerable for her actions but the way it was played; it was obvious she would get away with it. Unless all this was pre-cursor to something more serious down the line.

Next, Sheppard. OK definitely more military than usual. And to be really honest, I have to agree and disagree at the same time. On what? Did the SGA team ever consider what would happen when they start dewraithing wraith on such a large scale would only serve to not only deplete resources but complicates so many other things like discovery of the Atlantis still existing? This retrovirus advantages and disadvantages to other Wraith? And if their lame story would hold more than a few days? And would they continue to supply the retrovirus to keep them human? Come on, killing them was the best way to go especially when you are in war and it’s us against them? So, Sheppard is uncomfortable and dismissive of Lathem. I doubt that even if Sheppard was nice or not, it would not stop the humanized Wraith from regaining pieces of their memory. Michael did say they were remembering even while on the medication. We cannot assume the drug work the same on every wraith in the same way, can we?

Which bring me to Michael. The part I disagree. I have no idea how many doses Michael has had overall but he definitely looked more human compared the other reverting wraith. I went back to the episode Michael, Allies, NML to watch how the writers actually not only cleverly humanized this wraith called Michael Kenmore with a retrovirus but by his very character and actions. He was first introduced to us as being human. So a bunch of us, well….. connected and empathized and humanized this wraith in our own eyes. And I think the fact the writers or producers got Connor Trinneer (who didn’t feel bad for Commander ‘Trip’ Tucker for a few reasons) to play that character made it so much more appealing (And he last time I saw Trip he was crying, its not easy detaching from that). They had to pick an actor rather famous for being so HUMAN among aliens. He’s a good actor except I had a problem with a humanized wraith having a Texan accent when he’s never been on earth before in ‘Michael’ep.

Cassian
July 24th, 2006, 02:40 PM
To continue …. the question that is really bugging me after reading this thread and watching Misbegotten, is Michael really good or bad and in a sense did Sheppard made the mistake of pushing a potential ally to an extreme threat? Michael was shocked, scared and actually a more decent human then some I know in real life in ‘Michael’ ep. Then this character turned a little more complex because when he was human reverting back, he was just trying to escape and go back to his own people, nothing wrong with that. He killed one 1 guard (look like he did not want to and felt guilty and manipulated Teyla and almost fed on her, instinct you see. But then he did something odd in Allies, he went back to the very spot he was in was strapped down for days to reminisce and ‘apologize’ in a way to Teyla for almost feeding on her and trying to justify why? Why bother? He’s suppose to be a full on wraith now trying to get a deal with his queen. He did not plan to see Teyla again later or ever and did not know his queen was planning to double cross SGA at the time. That queen was right; ‘the human stench’ in him was definitely still there because a normal wraith commander would stay away and not bother.

Then Michael got irked when he found out SGA was double crossed and dared to question the queen because he was not told about it. And that is when he discovers, he has a limited lifespan because of what happened to him. His days were numbered. But instead of going to his room as he should, he went to the room where they stored all the SGA stuff. Why? Why not take a dart and leave? They were in hyperspace, so that was out. But the way he came out with the very quick answer to target the ventral hyperdrive leads me to believe he actually planned to blow that part to begin with if he could. He was sitting there formulating a plan. And he wanted to rescue Ronan and McKay to get their help because he knew he could not do it alone. I think that because he was leading Sheppard to where they were kept before Sheppard even asked. (All this is an assumption. Up to anyone if they agree or not)

So when Sheppard called suddenly, it was the best of opportunities. He took it. Yes, he wants to survive but there were plenty of times Michael could back stab them along the way and leave on a dart or kill the SGA and take the ship after they gassed the ship. He did not really have to take down the jamming codes but he did. He saved the lot of them and followed along all the way back to Atlantis putting the 200 remaining humanized wraith in stasis. So Michael was suddenly heartless towards his fellow wraith when he knew they are just using him and mean nothing of to them so his switch sides. Actually, seems very normal to me.

Then SGA locked him up under guard. No thank yous, no appreciation. He does not want to be human, he is not accepted by the wraith, the people he helped saved still does not trust him because trusting a former first prime is easier than a life sucking alien (which bring to mind how often do they need to feed?) So, he asked for a ship and supplies. No surprise there. Or asked to just go ahead and kill him which is exactly what he expected them to do because he knew their biggest secret. He did not try to escape or feed, he did not do that mind, telepathic manipulation thing on the guards or Teyla or maybe he couldn’t but for a wraith hell bent on self preservation earlier suddenly he’s waiting in that room then had his arms open hoping Ronan would kill him (almost like he wanted to end the misery). By the way, I think he appealed to Teyla because she was the only one willing to MAYBE accommodate his request for a ship and supplies. He has turned rather human, having not only a unique insight as he said to Teyla in ‘Allies’ but he picked up human traits too whether he would admit it or not.

But no…. opps SGA did it again. Not giving him an option to be turned human thinking it’s the human thing to do instead of killing him. And did they expect the retrovirus to work as effectively as before? How about building an immunity especially when it came to Michael? He’s been dosed so many times. And what? Not bothering to think how pissed he would be if he ever reverted again and they knew that was a huge possibility.

Cassian
July 24th, 2006, 02:41 PM
So many people here commented here about SGA’s stupid move. I agree there too. And I think it was a very good scene for Beckett because I missed him in NML and his interaction with Michael was priceless. That was great. It really made the episode. But here is another thing, why didn’t Michael feed on him? Maybe take few years off? Not hungry? Still human? Still needed Beckett intact? Hostage? We know the four marines got fed on but by whom also no clue. But only after being betrayed a couple of times, Michael turns quite ruthless (i.e. killing Lathem and the four marines). Can we blame him?

He displayed human characteristics time and time again different from other wraith though. The writers did that on purpose for us to like this character and be caught in between sympathizing, loving, justifying and hating this character. They did a good job a turning a hated enemy in just four episodes to everyone going ‘Oh…Poor Michael….and hope he kicks SGA’s a** when he comes back with their nuke’. Suddenly, people are bashing the so called ‘heroes’ of the show and poking holes in their mistakes and character flaws. I think we fell into the writer’s trap to purposefully provoke this response and to debate morality issues. Nice….

Another thing bugged me. Michael said: “I admire your courage, Colonel Sheppard” in NML when Sheppard wanted to go to the hive ship when they were running low on air. Why would a wraith say that? Why would he trust Ronan when he knew how much Ronan wanted him dead? Why trust the humans at all? To survive when there were other chances to leave? Why act human? Why is Michael still so human looking when the other reverted wraiths look almost all wraith? And it’s not just the hair. And just how old is he? What is his real name? How much info did Michael get from Beckett? Just the nuke’s existence and how to disarm it? What else?

Anyway, there were too many questions and plot holes in Michael’s favor to be an ally. But the writers turn around and made him another enemy, making SGA very flawed indeed for screwing up again. More than SGC even. This is better than Ford, Kolya, the Genii combined thus far. I might not be totally supportive of the wraith or humanized wraith in general but what an interesting species to explore. And Michael is a whole other chapter on its own. Hope the writers don’t spoil it. It’s hard to have and maintain half good, half bad characters that are so endearing somehow.

Cassian
July 24th, 2006, 02:44 PM
This episode did not just entertained but made me think, analyze, scrutinize and ponder the possibilities, argue the morality, the actions or inactions and stupidity. Life is like that. All about confusing people. That is a show worth watching. Why I am starting to like SGA even more than SG1 too? (can’t believe I have considered that) Because I like shows that make me angry, think and argue till I turn blue and yet still manage to be entertaining and consistent… oh and very funny (big fan of sarcasm). SG1 really has not done that of late. Although both shows have a thing for not being able to keep their ships. That irks me a bit too. I wanted to know more about hive ships. Oh, well as O’Neill said before “Next one…we keep.”

On the topic of the different humanized wraith. I think the bald ones are the warrior wraiths Michael mentioned. The bulky ones that never talk and wear mask. But as I recall they have a little short hair (retrovirus work differently on them and made them lose hair?). The lean ones are the dart pilots and commanders like Michael use to be wearing long black/brown uniforms. Wait a minute…in that case why Michael’s hair never grew longer and white or maybe because he keeps going back and forth between species or the retrovirus permanently messed up his hair(Michael: It’s not enough you make me human, but you messed with my LOCKS (hair)! :cool: Anyway, I think another attempt to make him seem human to us or Connor Trinneer not fond of wigs…heh he…) That’s why there is so much more to learn. How exactly the retrovirus effect wraiths even after one dose? Is Michael special because of his dosage and the period in which he took it? What is their society really like? Is it possible to change their dietary habits? Alternate food source besides humans? If you can turn them human, why not change other things?

About Michael being an ally? I would think it would be nice but as Sheppard said before to Steve… ‘not being able to meet his dietary requirements’. As I asked before how often do they need to feed? Obviously not everyday by how they show has played it. But after feeding does make them quite strong and could regenerate too. How long do they live? Indefinitely as long there are humans to feed on? How they procreate? How many are they really? Do they have a home planet? But as I said, if they can make him human, why not change his need to feed. And I doubt he would lose his complete memory every time he is made human. He’s adapting by the looks of it. Remembering and reverting faster. Not to mention picking up very cunning plans to outsmart SGA.

Yeah, and he seems rather cruel killing Lathem and sacrificing the rest of the other wraiths but mind you, we do not know much about their society. We judge them by our cultural standards. Isn’t that wrong? They have this survival of fittest mentality. That’s why he was ostracized, wasn’t he by the wraith for being human before. Their reasons to kill Lathem (for not listening and drawing attention) and sacrifice the weaker others seemed logical, ruthless as it seems to us but normal for them. We judge them because they are life sucking aliens, sucking on us humans but that’s how they turned out, their physiology and evolution from those iratus bugs. They never knew anything else but feeding mostly on humans. Try judging Klingon society by our standards and they are just as cruel too but at least not life sucking aliens ;) .

I am just rationalizing here since a few mentioned that Michael or the wraith being evil. Define evil? I study forensic psych, there are human criminals on this fair planet of ours that kill PEOPLE for pleasure. So it says that wraith gain pleasure from feeding on a human. What? Never felt elated after gorging yourself when you’re hungry? (You know what they say about eating a lot of chocolate) You don’t feel great chowing down on a rare sirloin steak with special sauce with beer or champagne? We are the ones that pretty much hunted so many animals to extinction for food or otherwise and still do to this very day (We rationalized that these animals are not sentient of course, so it is ok. Is it?). So the goa’uld threat us like cattle and so do the wraith. What a surprise? We as humans would fear and hate the wraith when the tables are turned. Be different if you are a wraith and these humans kidnapped you and experimented on you and making you into a food source for your previous species, telling you lies when you lost your memory and identity then decide to kill you because you’ve become an inconvenienced when you remember who and what you are after being converted to a lowly cow… opps sorry human :o :) And imagine that done to you TWICE without your consent. How would you feel? Who’s evil now? Want to argue if what we eat is sentient? Cows? Whales? Salmon? Monkeys? Your pets? Makes you wonder if one day we do meet intelligent life forms out there, if we seem sentient enough to them to bother? What Micheal said in ‘Allies’ is partially true if not all true ‘Human and Wraith are more alike than we would like to believe’.

rarocks24
July 24th, 2006, 02:45 PM
We've blown up hiveships full of Wraith before, why should this time be any different?

Dress a wolf in sheepskin and it's still a wolf. If you're worried about it attacking the flock, just kill it, don't try and convince it that it goes "baa" and eats grass.
The issue was the Daedalus crew wanted to survive. So they used the retrovirus. If they could create a virus that altered them permanently, then what's the point of murdering them?

Cassian
July 24th, 2006, 02:46 PM
Some say why the Wraith didn’t change to find alternate food source? Change since they seem advance enough? We can argue the DNA and evolution of wraith from the iratus bug but seriously, these are fictional aliens, they evolved feeding mostly on humans (even on the Ancients) and took on most of their characteristics and technology. But ask yourself why we breed cows, chickens, fish and all manner of live stock if we can also eat vegetables too. We have alternate food sources and yet only a handful chose to be vegetarians.

Then there many people have this thing with vampires which the wraith are compared to and how ‘pleasurable’ sucking/drinking blood can be. We have actual people who are actually into this stuff (gothic something) for that ‘pleasure’. But it just feels all different when you yourself are turn into prime beef, someone’s dinner as it keeps being mentioned here (Hitting a little close to home). Somehow, that makes the Ori seem good. At least they are not trying to eat you, just converting you and ask you to prostrate a lot to the Ori or they kill you anyway (Try debating that! Wraith vs. Ori or Goa’uld host maybe). I know I sound like a real softy and blow heart but actually if I saw a humanized wraith, I probably shoot him dead if came to me or him and I knew he was reverting. I’m just saying here…..this is what happen when writers make the bad guy look like the good guy.

On the topic Michael was saving himself? Survival (who isn’t out to save themselves when they feel alone and rejected?) was all Michael cared about and he said he wanted to live (but did not want to be human) and he thought his best chance was helping the humans. We know they have a huge instinct to survive no matter what, look at the ep ‘Defiant One’. They would feed on themselves if necessary. So he did by betraying his own people and his queen (which was the wraith’s mistake to shut him out in the first place), all the way he helped the SGA team until us human went and betray his trust in us by also shutting him out, lock him up (at least not in that cage again, why didn’t he try to escape again?) and not trusting him, change him to something he objected and detested before even though he said he preferred death. SGA thinks they are being human by making him human because they could not keep him around, could not kill him and could not let him go. As morality goes, I’d say kill him. I enjoyed the character but Michael’s a soldier, he knew what was coming, expected it but to be humanized again. That is being cruel. How’d you like it if someone kept trying to turn you into a cow against your will? Telling you that being human was a virus or a disease a daily injection could fix that. That would be an interesting Outer Limits or Twilight Zone episode….

So I actually understand the motives, feelings and actions of the SGA team despite it being morally wrong to a point and yes, they made mistakes which we all do and it is not a perfect world. There are always circumstances. And they royally screwed Michael along with the other humanized wraith which made things worse. And yet, I also strangely understand Michael and his actions and even the Wraiths. I guess that means both parties are morally wrong but hey, I’m only human… don’t feed on me… heh heh… Or maybe it is my twisted mind trying to make sense of a wacky season finale with an even wackier season opener. Anyone agree, maybe more disagree? I’ll keep quiet now and go back to my little hole…..(scurrying away…:)

Black Arts Ocelot
July 24th, 2006, 03:16 PM
As for him needing to offer some of his own men up as sacrifices to the hive in order to escape, who created the whole situation with a bunch of desperate prisoners mutated against their will and under constant threat of Nuclear extermination at the first sign of trouble? Trouble being defined as simply trying to resist the warped science experiment they were all being subjected to. Oh that's right. :D

That's a simplification of events. He didn't "need" to offer up sacrifices, especially not of fellow Wraith. He just figured the incentive would make the other Wraith more likely to go out of their way. And by the time the nuke was brought into play, Mikey had already killed Atlantis crewmen and had Carson captive. Not to mention, the moment he and his cronies got onboard, they'd pretty much just set off again for Earth, bringing us back to square one. Desperate Wraith, struggling to survive? Cry me a river. Have you ever seen a culling? Ever seen a victim of a Wraith's hunger? Seen what they have in store for Earth? If weapons hadn't been offline and life support was working, they would have just blasted the hive and been done with it. They used the only means they had (at Michaels' behest- and let's not forget the whole gassing of hives was his idea to begin with). They tried to be humane about it after, it failed miserably, and I'm sure they will keep that in mind next time. Personally, I think they should just chalk the retrovirus up as a weapon that will rob their enemies of their superhuman abilities and leave them temporarily confused...aka turn once fearsome and unstoppable foes into a non-threat. Sounds like a positive to me.

Anyone who disagrees on that point is more than welcome to go apologize to a Wraith themselves. Let us know how that works out for you.

Alipeeps
July 24th, 2006, 03:33 PM
Anyone who disagrees on that point is more than welcome to go apologize to a Wraith themselves. Let us know how that works out for you.

I think I love you! :D :D :lol:

Serenity228
July 24th, 2006, 05:51 PM
That's a simplification of events. He didn't "need" to offer up sacrifices, especially not of fellow Wraith. He just figured the incentive would make the other Wraith more likely to go out of their way. And by the time the nuke was brought into play, Mikey had already killed Atlantis crewmen and had Carson captive. Not to mention, the moment he and his cronies got onboard, they'd pretty much just set off again for Earth, bringing us back to square one. Desperate Wraith, struggling to survive? Cry me a river. Have you ever seen a culling? Ever seen a victim of a Wraith's hunger? Seen what they have in store for Earth? If weapons hadn't been offline and life support was working, they would have just blasted the hive and been done with it. They used the only means they had (at Michaels' behest- and let's not forget the whole gassing of hives was his idea to begin with). They tried to be humane about it after, it failed miserably, and I'm sure they will keep that in mind next time. Personally, I think they should just chalk the retrovirus up as a weapon that will rob their enemies of their superhuman abilities and leave them temporarily confused...aka turn once fearsome and unstoppable foes into a non-threat. Sounds like a positive to me.

Anyone who disagrees on that point is more than welcome to go apologize to a Wraith themselves. Let us know how that works out for you.

Excellent points!! The team got themselves into trouble in the first place because they were trying to find a compassionate way to make the Wraith into something that would not munch on the galaxy rather than just going out and killing them all. It was their human compassion for the Wraith that put them in the position to have to kill them face to face. The team has tried to find ways to coexist, but Teyla says it best, "They are Wraith." Compassion is wasted. How many times will Michael spin things his way before he is considered incorrigible?

Y'all, you can only get the life sucked out of you once. I for one would rather be alive and morally ambiguous in the face of evil than be the gal that came for dinner and ended up being dinner.

And Ali, I agree, wonderful line! Let us know how that works out for you, indeed!

ShadowMaat
July 24th, 2006, 06:09 PM
Excellent points!! The team got themselves into trouble in the first place because they were trying to find a compassionate way to make the Wraith into something that would not munch on the galaxy rather than just going out and killing them all.
Compassion? I don't know. Seems to be they were trying to save their own asses by removing the teeth from their biggest enemies. Maybe TPTB want us to think the Atlantis team is compassionate and went through all this research out of nothing but love for their enemy and a desire to see them all holding hands, singing "Kumbaya" and braiding flowers into each others' hair, but if so, that's bull. They were researching WEAPONS, whether said weapons were "humane" or not is a matter of interpretation and from the victims' point of view, what the retrovirus did was worse than death... but Team Atlantis didn't care, did they? THEY know what's best for everyone. What anyone else wants means damn all to THEM.

ToasterOnFire
July 24th, 2006, 07:00 PM
Thoughts:

-I spent a lot of this ep feeling like I had deja vu. Turning wraith into humans, hiding the truth (and doing an exceptionally crappy job), having the truth get out and everything goes to pot? Saw it in Michael. Trying to get a ship running, having Shep push Rodney for results, and Rodney snarking back? Saw that in Allies. Having a ship go boom (though I don't give a flying fig about the Orion or this ship)? Did it last week in NML. It felt like a mismash of recycled Atlantis scenes.

-I was quite upset to see the team repeat the same mistakes. Why did they turn Michael back when it failed so spectacularly before? Why stick him with the other wraith? Why not come up with a better story for the wraith turned humans and why not work harder to make it convincing? Why have such a crappy security detail on the planet? As someone (apologies for forgetting who) stated upthread, the writers are still making it very difficult for me to sympathize with this team when they don't seem to learn from their mistakes. And not being able to sympathize with the team makes it much more difficult to enjoy the show.

-Poor team decisions and recycled scenes aside, I did think that the scenes on the planet set up a nice atmosphere of tension and the writers did a good job getting me to sympathize with the wraith.

-Never for one second did I get the feeling that Weir might lose her job or even get a severe reprimand for what happened in Michael and beyond. It didn't help that the IOA was written (intentionally?) as a weak "enemy" for Weir to run over. Because of this, I didn't give one whit about this subplot, which was frustrating because I was hoping this would lead to some good (and desperately needed) character development for her. What we got felt like a wasted opportunity.

-I was worried that having Teyla fly a hive ship would be such a Mary Sue, but it didn't end up that way for me. Maybe because it made sense for her do it thanks to her wraith DNA, maybe because they didn't focus too much on it, maybe because she wasn't some instant awesome!pilot or even close. Looks like she won't get a chance to fly another anytime soon though.

-The Caldwell/Woolsey scene had a nice background of the inside of the city - it emphasized the height and hugeness of Atlantis when it's so easily forgotten with traditional camera angles and sets.

-Highlights of the ep for me: the Teyla/Weir scene, Teyla/Michael scene, getting visual verification that Carson exists on this show, Caldwell/Woolsey scene, and the scene with the whole team at the conference table. That last one was the best - it showed the level of comfort and respect everyone shared for each other yet wasn't overdone. Rodney's quip especially was lighthearted, funny, and well-placed. :)

Black Arts Ocelot
July 24th, 2006, 07:05 PM
Compassion? I don't know. Seems to be they were trying to save their own asses by removing the teeth from their biggest enemies. Maybe TPTB want us to think the Atlantis team is compassionate and went through all this research out of nothing but love for their enemy and a desire to see them all holding hands, singing "Kumbaya" and braiding flowers into each others' hair, but if so, that's bull. They were researching WEAPONS, whether said weapons were "humane" or not is a matter of interpretation and from the victims' point of view, what the retrovirus did was worse than death... but Team Atlantis didn't care, did they? THEY know what's best for everyone. What anyone else wants means damn all to THEM.

Erm...define "anyone else?"

If you mean the Wraith, then yea... damn all to them. The phrase "don't start none, won't be none," comes to mind. Maybe if they didn't go around the galaxy eating everyone they wouldn't have to worry about the odd group that decided to fight back. Don't want to be declawed? Don't go screwing with the Atlantis crew. It's simple math.

And for anyone else...I'm fairly certain the rest of the Wratih-fearing galaxy wouldn't mind seeing their vampiric overlords reduced to harmless LotR elves with memory problems. After generations of oppression...actually it goes beyond oppression...of being flat out DEVOURED... I think seeing the meek, confused Wraith would be sweet irony.

O'Neill is funny
July 24th, 2006, 08:54 PM
Well, 2 ships down in 2 episodes! that kinda sux because i was looking forward to seeing a hive ship! just imagine what some of those annoying Genii guys will think! i hate the fact the wraith aren't allowed free will...sure i want humans to have great technology but there is no difference between us and them because of that, atleast for them they do it for food.

Willow'sCat
July 24th, 2006, 09:43 PM
Well, 2 ships down in 2 episodes! that kinda sux because i was looking forward to seeing a hive ship! just imagine what some of those annoying Genii guys will think!Well to misquote dear Oscar Wilde: :p

"To lose one Ship may be regarded as a misfortune; to lose both looks like carelessness."

;)

Lieutenant Reichwein
July 24th, 2006, 10:55 PM
WTF...two means of tech advancement and also tactical advantages for the wraith and both are stupidly destroyed in back-to-back episodes. F***en stupid!

Ouroboros
July 24th, 2006, 11:42 PM
If Sheppard and Atlantis are going to continually hate and Wraith and NEVER trust them - then what - they continue to hope that not more than one or two hive ships comes by and keep crossing their fingers that the Wraith will not find out that Atlantis is still intact.

If the team continues going through the gate each week don't you think it wont take long for the Wraith to find out that they are from Atlantis. They have encountered enough human settlements who seem to know that Atlantis has not been destroyed.

The Wraith will keep sending Hive Ships and how long can Atlantis or McKay keep coming up with "brilliant" plans to keep them at bay. This didn't work for the ancients so will it work for the Atlantis team.

This is a point I've tried to hammer home numerous times myself to the assorted "just kill 'em all" people who would look on attempts at some sort of diplomacy as weakness or wimping out or something. For all the pro-Earth wanking that goes on killing them all in a fight to the death is an extremely stupid plan, lets just do a little math here.

We Have

-2 Small ships

-1 planet

-A few million soldiers on all of Earth assuming everyone teams up

They Have

-60 gigantic hivehips we know about, plus an unknown number of cruisers and lesser ships all of which outclass ours on a 1 to 1 basis

-1000 planets or so under their control

-An entire race of people who're immortal warriors capable of killing even a trained human soldier, the only exception being their children.

They've also got technological advantages over us and we're fighting another war against the Ori at the same time we're dealing with them.

Diplomacy isn't weakness here folks, it's survival. Trying to beat them in open warfare is pretty much a total non option.

Mike and his crew represented an opportunity to potentially open up diplomatic channels with at least some of the Wraith. Our objective in making an alliance with him and his guys wouldn't exactly be to befriend all the Wraith by the end of next week and start intermarrying with them until all our differences are blurred away, as the adage goes. It would be to simply create a disruptive set of ideals and a group of sympathetic allies in their midst to take some of the heat off us. If we have the "bad" wraith worried about the growing ranks of the "good" wraith and trying to contain their message then we have to worry that much less about the bad wraith focusing their attention entirely on harvesting Earth or blasting Atlantis apart.


Who knows how long Michael could have lasted without feeding - I do believe that they can survive on animal life forms. Why doesn't Carson start working on a way to find an alternative feeding source for them. If the guy is clever enough to create a retrovirus that can completley change them into humans then is it really impossible that he could come up with some alternative feeding solutions.

Well the guy from defiant one lasted 10,000 years on just those prisoners and his crew so I don't think they feed that often. I'd say 1 or 2 times per year is what's actually required but they'll feed more if they get the chance to or possibly if they get injured.

areghnatha
July 24th, 2006, 11:45 PM
Anyone agree, maybe more disagree? I’ll keep quiet now and go back to my little hole…..(scurrying away…:)

I agree to all of your points, but I was not able to put that into englisch the way you did ;).
I am moderator in a German Forum and there we have had the same discussion since the episode Michael. It makes me feel better that we are not the only persons who think that way about the Wraith.

How often Wraith have to feed...
In Episode Instinct the Wraith feeds every 3 Month a human, makes 4 humans a year...

Alipeeps
July 25th, 2006, 01:58 AM
WTF...two means of tech advancement and also tactical advantages for the wraith and both are stupidly destroyed in back-to-back episodes. F***en stupid!

For simple reasons of story development alone, it was unlikely that the SGA team would ever get to keep any greatly superior warship for any length of time. You can't have the sense of tension and danger the show requires if every week you can just solve the problem by saying "Oh hey, we'll just blow it up with our hive ship/ancient war ship"

Linzi
July 25th, 2006, 02:35 AM
For simple reasons of story development alone, it was unlikely that the SGA team would ever get to keep any greatly superior warship for any length of time. You can't have the sense of tension and danger the show requires if every week you can just solve the problem by saying "Oh hey, we'll just blow it up with our hive ship/ancient war ship"
Agreed. As cool as the ships are, it would detract from the storyline if every episode was 'That's okay, just call the *insert name of cool ship*, they'll save the day.' That's why the Deddy is only at Atlantis one out of every six weeks.

IWantToBelieve
July 25th, 2006, 03:21 AM
To those talking about diplomacy:

The cattle walk up to the slaughterhouse crew and moo for a peace pact.

Yeah.

Alipeeps
July 25th, 2006, 03:27 AM
To those talking about diplomacy:

The cattle walk up to the slaughterhouse crew and moo for a peace pact.

Yeah.

I so wish I could green you! :lol:

Willow'sCat
July 25th, 2006, 05:22 AM
Diplomacy isn't weakness here folks, it's survival.Amen. :cool: It isn't like they solved anything there are still Wraith out there it will not be long before they know where we are. Sheppard's murder spree did nothing to stop that from happening. :cool: They may have made it worse.

The real irony here is Dr Weir is meant to be this great diplomat... :rolleyes:

Linzi
July 25th, 2006, 06:14 AM
Amen. :cool: It isn't like they solved anything there are still Wraith out there it will not be long before they know where we are. Sheppard's murder spree did nothing to stop that from happening. :cool: They may have made it worse.

The real irony here is Dr Weir is meant to be this great diplomat... :rolleyes:
Sheppard's murder spree? Must have blinked and missed that one.
I'm really glad I don't have to make decisions like the Atlantis team did. You know what? I damn glad some of the posters here don't either. Otherwise the Wraith would make it to Earth and we'd all be their lunch.
I find it surprising how naive people can be. When it comes to fighting a war, and that's what this is, difficult decisions have to be made. No, they're not nice, or necessarily humane, just look at the violence and killing around this planet at the moment in the name of God knows what. But let's be realistic here. We're talking about a bunch of life-sucking vampires, turned back to nearly humans, turning back to Wraith, who would let other Wraith know about Atlantis/Earth/Hyperdrive systems. It would be so logical just to let the approaching Hive ship take them in, or feed on the weaker still human ones, wouldn't it? The team couldn't re-capture the Wraith/humans before the Hive arrived, so they had no choice but to kill them to save Earth. Why is that a killing spree? It's self preservation, and it happens in war all the time. Isn't it right to protect your own kind? The Wraith certainly wouldn't think twice about it. Do the Wraith have less right to survive than humans? Who knows. Humans don't eat Wraith though, do they? Tell me any of you wouldn't kill a Wraith to survive? I would, if I had to.
As to whether weir's a good diplomat or not...er, negotiate with the Wraith? Er, yep, right before they eat you.

Hatusu
July 25th, 2006, 07:21 AM
This is why I love science fiction. What other medium is such a good platform for discussing important issues?

As for me, I could definitely kill to defend someone else's life. I think that I could kill to defend my own life, if I was at immediate risk. Self preservation instinct would take over. However, I don't think I could kill for a future risk even if the certainty is very high. I'm not judging people here. I just need certainty. Would that make me a bad leader?

I think Atlantis should face these issues head on. Weir's character needs to face this issue of the Wraith in all its ugliness. It's wonderful drama and it reflects what's going on in the world today.

SGFerrit
July 25th, 2006, 07:35 AM
Great episode, Atlantis and SG-1 were both very enjoyable, but...
Can we not hold on to a ship for two minutes these days?!?! All together we have had:
A Hatak (Destroyed)
Prometheus (Destroyed)
Daedalus
Odyssey
Orion (Destroyed)
Korolev (Destroyed)
Wraith hive ship (Destroyed)

Out of 7 large ships we now only have 2. Hopefully we will be able to keep the next one.

prion
July 25th, 2006, 08:28 AM
Why would they just dump Michael on a planet with all these other human Wraith? You’d thing they would have more of a connection to Michael and thus they would keep him on Atlantis and try to integrate him again. I mean they are getting a second chance here to learn from past mistakes but they’d just rather abandon him on some planet and forget about him. Course obviously they didn't learn from past mistakes by making the choice to convert him again....

And stupid Sheppard. He should have taken more time to answer that guy’s questions. By just brushing him off like that it just created more suspicion….

Whatever. The episode was ok. Nothing impressive.

They dumped michael there because he's a wraith, because alll the rest of them are wraith and until beckett concocts the a solution that permanently changes them to human, they're always going to be wraith.

As for Sheppard... Lathan has asked him this question numerous times, if you listen to the dialogue, and you can't blame him for being uneasy about the whole situation. The thing is that if Sheppard kept concocting more lies, that would create more suspicions. The whole scenario was in Beckett's hands. Sometimes the truth is simplest (but not the truth that 'hey, you were once a soul sucking wraith but we're on fixing that')

prion
July 25th, 2006, 08:30 AM
Well, 2 ships down in 2 episodes! that kinda sux because i was looking forward to seeing a hive ship! just imagine what some of those annoying Genii guys will think! i hate the fact the wraith aren't allowed free will...sure i want humans to have great technology but there is no difference between us and them because of that, atleast for them they do it for food.

Don't forget numerous ships blown up in the season 9 ender of SG1. The writers just have something against anybody having technologically superior ships I guess ...

Hatusu
July 25th, 2006, 08:40 AM
Great episode, Atlantis and SG-1 were both very enjoyable, but...
Can we not hold on to a ship for two minutes these days?!?! All together we have had:
A Hatak (Destroyed)
Prometheus (Destroyed)
Daedalus
Odyssey
Orion (Destroyed)
Korolev (Destroyed)
Wraith hive ship (Destroyed)

Out of 7 large ships we now only have 2. Hopefully we will be able to keep the next one.

They like ship go boom. :P

Sheylafan87
July 25th, 2006, 10:15 AM
I liked this eppy, it was interesting to see Woosley from SG-1 apprear and when he and caldwell talked it seemed like Caldwell was more protective of Weir and that he wouldnt take her place cause she seemed better of here then on earth. It was kool to see Teyla fly the ship, now that was sweet the way she looked and she was so focused and McKay makin sure she can fly in a straight line was funny.

(i saw the ratings and man i cant believe the ratings droppe3d again. Man this season is showing to be better but its not fair how the ratings come out. Two eppys so far got the lowest ratings, i hope the ratings go back up in the later eppys to come.)

bluealien
July 25th, 2006, 10:44 AM
-



Diplomacy isn't weakness here folks, it's survival. Trying to beat them in open warfare is pretty much a total non option.


Exactly.

If Atlantis think that open war fare is the only way to go - then I guess they will end up just like the ancients.

When has any war not ended because of diplomacy!!

Alipeeps
July 25th, 2006, 10:56 AM
When has any war not ended because of diplomacy!!

Errr.. 2nd World War? Sure, diplomacy is always there at the end to tidy up the loose ends and get everyone to sign a treaty to say they won't go doing that kind of thing again... but a war usually ends because one side realises they can't win.

After 2 A-bombs the Japanese decided there was no way they could fight against weapons like that, the cost was just too high, and so they conceded.

Diplomacy just dealt wth the aftermath.

Aside from which - this has been said before but it bears repeating... you can't open up diplomatic relations with a race that thinks you are edible. It's like the sheep trying to have a diplomatic relationship with the wolf. What's in it for the wolf? Nothing? He doesn't want to be friends with the sheep, he only wants to eat them.

NoDot
July 25th, 2006, 01:51 PM
I just didn't want to use Hitler since it would violate Godwin's Law. ;)It wouldn't violate it, but rather confirm it.

The Law itself: "As an online discussion grows longer, the probability of a comparison involving Nazis or Hitler approaches one."

Therefore, Godwin's Law can only be violated by an infinitely long discussion with no comparisons involving Hitler or Nazis.

creed462
July 25th, 2006, 02:36 PM
I liked the ep

IWantToBelieve
July 25th, 2006, 03:33 PM
Exactly.

If Atlantis think that open war fare is the only way to go - then I guess they will end up just like the ancients.

When has any war not ended because of diplomacy!!

When has any war been with an alien race that has to suck the life out of you to feed themselves?

Just a thought to remember.

Gregorius
July 25th, 2006, 03:42 PM
Bad episode. They lost another ship and got Michael against them once more. I thought that only the best of the best went to Atlantis, but the decisions the Atlantis expedition has been making in the last episodes are seriously contradicting that statement. They exhibit poor judgement, poor tactical decisions and a total lack of strategy and planning.

Any decent commander would've kept Michael in Atlantis as Wraith since he's a very important source of information about Wraith technology, tactics etc. as well as an excellent tactician/strategist. Also would a decent commander never have left a doctor with only 4 soldiers alone on a planet with potential hostile elements, nor would a such a commander have allowed that these (former) hostiles were to perform the medical treatment alone, especially not after there is evidence of that some of the captives aren't believing the cover story anymore.

Alipeeps
July 25th, 2006, 03:51 PM
Any decent commander would've kept Michael in Atlantis as Wraith since he's a very important source of information about Wraith technology, tactics etc. as well as an excellent tactician/strategist.

For the nth time, you can't keep a pet wraith on Atlantis! Unless you want to volunteer to be his dinner next time he gets hungry?

ShadowMaat
July 25th, 2006, 04:01 PM
Any decent commander would never have allowed Michael in the city the first time around. Weir deserves to be sacked for making such a monumentally stupid (and blatantly dangerous) decision. I don't care if the IOA gave the go-ahead- they only know what Weir tells them, they don't know how the situation really is and I don't care if the rest of the crew agreed it was a good choice- she's the commander, the final call is hers and she could very easily have vetoed it and set Michael up on an innocuous planet with no easy access to Atlantis. But she didn't. And Atlantis is still paying the price for that and will undoubtedly continue to pay for it in future eps.

The fact that they were stupid enough to try the whole humanizing thing again only proves how dangerously unfit she is for this kind of position. Not that Shep and Co. are any better, since they went along with it, too and may have encouraged the choice. They must have some hellacious deathwish.

Gregorius
July 25th, 2006, 04:24 PM
For the nth time, you can't keep a pet wraith on Atlantis! Unless you want to volunteer to be his dinner next time he gets hungry?

Considering the Atantis crew has no problems with killing they can use those wraith-humans as food and keep Michael in that dugeon with the force field.


Any decent commander would never have allowed Michael in the city the first time around. Weir deserves to be sacked for making such a monumentally stupid (and blatantly dangerous) decision. I don't care if the IOA gave the go-ahead- they only know what Weir tells them, they don't know how the situation really is and I don't care if the rest of the crew agreed it was a good choice- she's the commander, the final call is hers and she could very easily have vetoed it and set Michael up on an innocuous planet with no easy access to Atlantis. But she didn't. And Atlantis is still paying the price for that and will undoubtedly continue to pay for it in future eps.

Very true and I think I already addressed this in my previous post in this thread ("They exhibit poor judgement, poor tactical decisions and a total lack of strategy and planning"), furthermore I was merely refering to the stupidity all around in this episode.


The fact that they were stupid enough to try the whole humanizing thing again only proves how dangerously unfit she is for this kind of position. Not that Shep and Co. are any better, since they went along with it, too and may have encouraged the choice. They must have some hellacious deathwish.

Imo, all personel as they are currently written are unfit for an expedition consisting of the best of best from Earth, with a notable exception of Sergant Bates who actually does try to create some security but is overruled by Weir & Co thus again proving your point. As you already stated, this expedition lacks a strong (militairy) leader who can actually think two steps ahead of time.

And they might not have a deathwish, they're merely trying to follow in the footsteps of the Ancients...

RoryJ
July 25th, 2006, 04:37 PM
I agree that the whole problem stemmed from keeping Michael in Atlantis (though I don't want her sacked). I still believe that the expedition wasn't wrong to try the retrovirus. The Wraith want to eat them, we can't beat them technologically, the expedition had to try something.

As for diplomacy; not in this case. They tried it in Allies and it thoroughly bit them in their collective a$$es. The Wraith have no need to negotiate; they're at the top of the food chain, both literally and figuratively.

If the retrovirus were to be used again, it's only use is that it makes the Wraith easier to kill; this time it would only take one shot.

IWantToBelieve
July 26th, 2006, 04:51 AM
They only humanized those wraith on the ship because they needed to beam over for the oxygen. It was either do that, or die.

jenks
July 26th, 2006, 05:09 AM
I'm too lazy to read the whole thread so I'll just ask:

Did anyone notice the 'matrix style' music during the wormhole bit as Weir went to see the IOA?

The Shadow
July 26th, 2006, 08:03 AM
I didn't get to see the ending but was Lorne in this ep at all....he's credited in the ep and there is a picture of him and Zelenka on Gateworld for the ep....but I just don't remember seeing him at all.

ShadowMaat
July 26th, 2006, 08:59 AM
I didn't get to see the ending but was Lorne in this ep at all....he's credited in the ep and there is a picture of him and Zelenka on Gateworld for the ep....but I just don't remember seeing him at all.
Nope, no Lorne. Another reason not to like the ep. :P

The pic may have been an out-take from No Man's Land. It seemed to be on the bridge of the Orion, so short of a flashback it isn't likely to be from a current ep. Unfortunately. *sigh*

freyr's mother
July 26th, 2006, 11:58 AM
Remember we nuked about 4 hives worth of Wraith in Siege Part 3.
That's still not genocide. It was a counterattack.

People, if it will make you feel less immoral about killing wraith, stick an M9 in his hand(empty) and then shoot them. And with regards to the retrovirus, we know it sux. I don't see why we don't go back to killing wraith the old fasioned way.

Lord Shiva
July 28th, 2006, 10:39 AM
Wow, I just saw Misbegotten, and I must say that from reading this thread for the last week, I expected to see some horrible atrocity. I expected to see the humans being evil and committing acts of genocide on an innocent people.

After watching the episode, I can't help but shake my head at people who think that way... we're dealing with Wraith, and almost 1/3rd of the camp had reverted to their former selves and were preparing to board another Hive Ship. Not only that, but Michael and the captured Wraith knew that Atlantis was still operational. Or at least, subconciously.

Left with a Wraith uprising, a situation going from bad to worse, the humans made a decision to wipe the camp out. I hate it, and I would hate to be the one to have to make a decision like that in real life... but it was the right one.

Other then that, the only thing I didn't like is us losing another friggin' ship. If there's one thing I don't like in Stargate, it's that. Let us keep some alien ships, please.

nightowl300
July 28th, 2006, 03:39 PM
I loved this episode. I give it a perfect 10.
I still think Michael survived the bombing from the orbit. Maybe he will be back later this season.

travis
July 28th, 2006, 05:14 PM
I loved this episode. I give it a perfect 10.
I still think Michael survived the bombing from the orbit. Maybe he will be back later this season.
Off course he did.

kaeyla
August 2nd, 2006, 10:09 AM
Great it should make some brillant interaction if he did- i am all for it!

Steven_the_Atlantean
August 6th, 2006, 02:38 AM
Great episode at first, Nice too see more inside of a hive ship, Teyla flying the hive ship was awesome, nice to see she’s’ still got it in her. About Michael and the gang, I personally didn’t enjoy that particular section, but, I wanted to see the two hives destroy each other, :( Aww I didn’t really like the ending and that’s so strange because I love every other ending of the entire Stargate Atlantis seasons from 1 to 2 it just feels so weird now :S Ah well, Sateda made it up so it is all good!

Padme18
August 10th, 2006, 06:36 AM
I loved this episode. I give it a perfect 10.
I still think Michael survived the bombing from the orbit. Maybe he will be back later this season.
I agree with you on the Michael thing. I also loved seeing Teyla fly a hive ship. That was awesome.

Pitry
August 14th, 2006, 02:13 AM
So there is moral ambiguity in the world! So the by-any-means-necessary attitude isn't accepted by all Atlantis characters! Hooray, at last. It wasn't that much better, but after the past two seaosns, I'm finally getting some hope. The thing so apparent in SG-1 - the world isn't black and white - finally finds its way to Atlantis, too.

Why does it have to be the medical doctor, tho? Out of all the science fiction cliches - and as much as I enjoy the fact Beckett gets some much needed attention - why the medical doctor?!

Eh, Michael survived. Obviously. The temptation is too high. No one ever dies.
So now we have in the galaxy a rogue human with Wraith influences and a rogue Wraith with human influences?... I can jsut see the spin off - Stargate: Michael & Ford! Ye, gods. I hope it doesn't mean they're throwing Ford out to the cold - while I didn't like the whole Wraith Enzyme plot, I enjoyed the character in season 1 and hope to see him again.

Amusing, all in all...

The Signal
August 14th, 2006, 09:43 AM
I really don't know how to feel about this one. On the one hand the dialogue was lazy, the plot was clumsy, and things just seemed too unlikely. On the other you have Connor Trinneer and Paul McGillon acting brilliantly, and most importantly a ruthless move by the expedition that is further evidence that SGA is fast becoming the Angel to SG1's Buffy. Still, fair is fair, and the pros and cons balance out, making this a

5/10

LiLTiff17
September 3rd, 2006, 03:46 PM
Does anyone know when this ep will rerun, I missed it.:(

Anubis69
October 25th, 2006, 02:51 PM
So there is moral ambiguity in the world! So the by-any-means-necessary attitude isn't accepted by all Atlantis characters! Hooray, at last. It wasn't that much better, but after the past two seaosns, I'm finally getting some hope. The thing so apparent in SG-1 - the world isn't black and white - finally finds its way to Atlantis, too.
Exactly. That's the sort of thing i want to see. I'm hoping it becomes the DS9 of the 'Gate universe myself... Darker, more ambiguous, more fleet action etc. etc.

Plus, it was good to see a Beckett episode. I loved his "Ironically, they're the two people I nearly killed when I did that." line. Genius. The guy's a legend.

... Does anyone else think that Dr. Weir seems to have grown a personality this year?! More jokes, and some sniping as well. I like that! ... Much better IMO. And then there was the all the shipping... *sigh* The "honour" scene (as amusing as it was) as well as at the table when she kind of paused and stared at Shep? *double sigh*

Matt G
October 31st, 2006, 07:50 AM
As everyone's said, one very interesting ep:

1. I was surprised they rehumanised Michael when they knew it didn't work last time, particularly when they put him in with his old crew. But then he sacrificed a large chunk of them, makes for an interesting bad guy but I'd rather Atlantis didn't have to ally with him again.

2. Definately like the convo between Caldwell and Woolsey.

3. Interesting that Woolsey gave Weir a free pass though. Bottom line is, the decision to try and humanise Michael first time out was done for the right reasons(and I still say it was worth a shot, given that as other people have said on here, Atlantis couldn't win an all-out fight vs the Wraith) but one way or another it went completely to cack then and Atlantis have seemingly been on the reactive ever since.

Orovingwen
October 31st, 2006, 02:29 PM
jeez please don't put this govermant/political crap into SGA! I didn't like that in SG-1 but it defenetly doesn't fit into SGA. *grml*

And uuh what a surprise Weir is staying in Atlantis.. And how "fortunate" that al wraith and ex-wraith on the planet blow up. Now we don't have to deal with it, we are so luckly because that could have been something fresh and more believeable...

I so loved Carson! I mean OMG he could be the doc good guy again! I kinda was concerned after Michael and I so I loved it whe he said he isn't that emphathic as he used to be. I think that is true. sadly actually. But I could still slap the whole 'lantien crew on their attitude towards the wraith.. I mean they just do teh same to them as the wraith do to "us" treat them as animals. Jsut when they look human they are worth something. hello? I am not saying tehy could have act diffrent but their POV is a bit - let's say it polite - extreme.

btw. why does only Michael's haircolor change? besides.. why does it change in the first place? Not that I don't like Trinneer with brown instead of silver hair ;)

well Teyla.. well another episode where I felt the writers sat in the office thinking the whole day of what Teyla could do. Jeez if you don't know what to do with her get her out of the maincast! something I always think about Carson. Hey I love him, sure but why make him maincast when he hasn't something to do? well Season 3 so far is great (;)), I just still got the second season on my mind ;)

OK I complain much here, I know. But don't get me wrong I like the episode, I like it that it works on many levels, you have actually an A (Wraith on Planet), B (Shep Team Story) and C (Weir+Woolsey). I like that, it's diffrent from teh "normal" A Plot with a bit B story. And there are nice charcter moments like Woolsey and Caldwell, John called Carson "Carson" (I really like that sound :)), Michael when he talks to Teyla, Michael and Carson, Woolsey to Weir at the end,..
oh and I am so happy they try to open the spot to more then Shep and Rodney. I mean I live the two together buit it's not The Rodney&John Show, at least I think they should limit themselfs to that ;)

btw. do they have new chairs in the meeting-room? and did they recycle the night view on the city shot? (I love that shot^^)

Another comment.. I didn't liked that John&Lizzy scenes that much, it seemed to me a bit "the fans want to see it so we give it to them" and not because the characters would do/say so. and on the other hand it seemed to me John and Rodney were a bit "cold" to eachother. Like they had a fight but sorted it out just need a bit time now to get over it and go on liek they used to do. that would have been better after Trinity..

Anyway, all in all I'm a bit two-parted. On one site great episode, but then it has a lot more potential and then some stuff I didn't like that much. I mean not that I hated it from the bottom of my heart but it stoped me from falling for that epi

borgprincess
April 30th, 2007, 09:45 PM
Exactly. That's the sort of thing i want to see. I'm hoping it becomes the DS9 of the 'Gate universe myself... Darker, more ambiguous, more fleet action etc. etc.

Plus, it was good to see a Beckett episode. I loved his "Ironically, they're the two people I nearly killed when I did that." line. Genius. The guy's a legend.

... Does anyone else think that Dr. Weir seems to have grown a personality this year?! More jokes, and some sniping as well. I like that! ... Much better IMO. And then there was the all the shipping... *sigh* The "honour" scene (as amusing as it was) as well as at the table when she kind of paused and stared at Shep? *double sigh*

I agree, they developed her a lot more this season and it is awesome!

I'm loving the Sh/Weir in this ep. I know, shippers are very good at seeing what they want to, but regardless of whether or not they do 'like' each other, there were some cute scenes in this ep between them!

Anyway, LOVING Weir right now, I bet Torri had so much fun with the first two eps of this season. She is sassing at Woolsey like I ain’t never seen from her before! ‘You, I think, will love the Asgard. They got a great sense of humor….’

Now, about the ep itself. I love SGA, I really do- but surely someone saw the potential for MAJOR DISASTER here; why didn’t they just kill all the newly human-ified Wraith and be done with it? The gas didn’t last long on Michael and he reverted, so didn’t they realize it could all go hugely wrong if 200 humans suddenly reverted to 200 Wraith? KILL THEM ALL, idiots…

I know, I know, ooh- moral dilemma. And if I were in their situation and not a tv viewer, I *may* be worried about the implications too. But it's a war, and they are the enemy. What's so hard? I actually agree with Ronan's bloodthirstiness for once.

I was so entertained during Caldwell and Woolsey's conversation, not that I listened to it. I was watching that precariously balanced cup and the partially peeled orange on the railing, thinking how funny would it be if one of them accidentally knocked something over?! And on the floor below, some poor
tech gets drenched in Earl Grey or black coffee or whatever it is Caldwell's drinking….!

It’s getting tiresome how many times they have the scene where Caldwell asks for lifesigns, random extra reports none, then a miracle occurs and through some plot contrivance, Team Sheppard survived! Ah, just when the
suspense was killing me…Mitch Pileggi doesn’t even bother to look sad or mournful anymore, he just has this patient ‘waiting’ face, like he’s anticipating
Sheppard’s call. And it’s hilarious when he asks where the hell the team is, and Teyla kind of side glances at Sheppard, while Ronan just point blank stares at him; Sheppard is totally clueless for a few seconds, then it hit him that they’re *cloaked*. That was a good one…

I forgive Woolsey for all the times he was a pain in the eema. He makes up a pretty bed-time story in order to keep Weir in charge! I didn’t think he needed to add that ‘for now’ comment about her leadership, but he’s probably trying to compensate for all the times she shut him down with
her biting wit. Whatever the case, I'm glad Sheppard didn't knock him on the head. ;)

JackBauer2007
June 6th, 2007, 05:46 AM
Quick question here:

How did Weir and Woolsey get back to Atlantis so quickly?

My thoughts on the episode.

Way too fast. Too much happened in such a small time which is an odd approach for Stargate. For example, one scene theyre shooting Micheal and giving him the anti wraith drug, next scene theyre some unknown planet colony. I get what happened but this happened a few times throughout the episode. OPverall though a good show.

PG15
June 6th, 2007, 01:21 PM
The Asgard gave them a ride.

WillowB
June 6th, 2007, 06:24 PM
I think is a very good episode!It is serious and intelligent.

I am a Weir/ Sheppard shipper and I have to say that I like the scene in her office:
"John Sheppard are you defending my Honor??":weir::sheppard:

daysleeper
August 29th, 2007, 06:16 PM
Hate to break the party, but this episode summed it up for me! How many stories must result from mismanagement and incompetence??

The decision to inject Michael with retrovirus (that they already know didn't work!) for the second time instead of killing him along with the 200 other Wraith is a very bad one. Bad call all around.

I look forward to having Samantha Carter replacing Dr.Weir in Season 4.

MechaThor
September 1st, 2007, 04:44 AM
Now that i have rewtached this episode on DVD, It is a lot better than I remember!

Althought i genrally hate the "Huamn Wraith" aspect as it adds to the every growing list of humans in space and human aliens! But atlaest it gets fixed and becomes more likable (for me) when the mutant bug monsters arrive latter on. As they are COOL!

Anyways a very intresting episode! With some gd action, story and some very bad wigs :ronan:

One thing is that the bald me are ment to be the wraith drones! However wraith drones do infact have long white hair when you see them as true wraith! So what happened to their hair?

borgprincess
September 2nd, 2007, 10:35 PM
Hate to break the party, but this episode summed it up for me! How many stories must result from mismanagement and incompetence??

The decision to inject Michael with retrovirus (that they already know didn't work!) for the second time instead of killing him along with the 200 other Wraith is a very bad one. Bad call all around.

I look forward to having Samantha Carter replacing Dr.Weir in Season 4.

I don't believe that it was Weir's fault alone, if that's the implication. They only injected the Wraith with that drug because it was easy, efficient and the most likely plan to save their butts. Chemical warfare v going in guns blazing and risking loss of life? I think the former is obvious.

What bugs me is how the writers wimped out. They went for the let's-angst-over-the-insanely-obvious necessity of killing all the humanified Wraiths: please, we saw with Michael that it didn't last long enough, obviously they should be disposed of. The writers should've tried being brave and having the characters take the morally ambiguous route of oh, trying to ensure their survival? Sometimes they err too much on the side of morality in situations when it's literally do-or-die. Realistically, who would agonize over killing the Wraith when they're an ongoing threat, regardless of how harmless they seem right now? The resources alone required to keep their camp going is just impractical.

But again, Weir didn't decide that all on her lonesome. Everyone went with that idea, except for Ronon, whose predictable 'let's kill the Wraith, who cares how they look' attitude was actually the *right* attitude for a change. Carson , in fact, was the one that championed the cause the most. So I don't see how Weir can be blamed for this. And if Carter had been in charge, I don't honestly believe that she would have made a different decision, given those circumstances.

bluealien
September 3rd, 2007, 03:46 AM
This was an extremely disappointing episode and I was routing more for the Wraith than our guys. The team had an opportunity to use Michael as an ally but once again they betrayed him and find themselves in deep water due to their unbelievably bad decisions. If the team want to believe that the Wraith are mindless killers and never to be trusted then I don't see them ever defeating them.... the ancients didnt even manage that. But here we had an opportunity to actually have one of them on their side and could have gained intell or information from Michael and possibly come to some sort of allliance. Sure it's not going to happen over night and many of the wraith would not be interested ... but if Michael is willing to try and help them and come up some some other method of feeding then who is to say that there are not many more wraith out there who may think the same... we know they have honour..(Common Ground).. but in Misbegotten it was the humans who were without honor and unwilling to do anything but engage in the Wraiths distruction. This kind of thinking may be their downfall and again if the ancients couldn't defeat the Wraith by battleing out with them how can a handfull of humans achieve this.
The team should never have given the retro virus to Michael again and as Weir is the leader I'm assuming this was her decision. So much for trying to negotiate with him but again I'm guessing they didn't even consider this. The whole set up on the planet was rediculous... and again terrible decision making... they leave a handful of marines with 200 Wraith .. without even thinking of the consequenses... didnt they learn anything from Michael... he was able to sus out that something was up and find out who he really was .... so why on earth did they think that all the Wraith on the planet wouldn't eventually do the same.

I think Sheppard wouldn't have had any problem with blowing up the remainder of the wraith on board the wraith hive ship...the only reason they put them on the planet was for Carson to continue his experimentation on them. I really don't think there was any moral decision involved other than continuing the retro virus research. Ronan was the only one who saw this as wrong and wanted no part in it. I think it would have been more humane to kill the wraith on the hive ship rather than what they were doing to them on the planet. The team didn't really have much problem distroying them and it was only Carson who tried to save them because they were now "human". But the fact that they were now human didnt seem to make any difference to Shep. It's episodes like this that put a blur on who are the good guys and who are the bad guys.... because all we learn is that our guys will stoop to any lenghts to survive and they did in this episode IMO... and the Wraith I guess will do anything to survive too, so what separates them.

I've always believed that there is so much more to the wraith than mindless killers... and it was nice to see this come to fruition in Common Ground but the team could have taken the first step here in Misbegotten to find this out.

garhkal
September 3rd, 2007, 12:43 PM
And if Carter had been in charge, I don't honestly believe that she would have made a different decision, given those circumstances.

Actually looking back to how she handled the replicarter incident, i could see her making the same mistake as wier did.

borgprincess
September 3rd, 2007, 08:59 PM
This was an extremely disappointing episode and I was routing more for the Wraith than our guys. The team had an opportunity to use Michael as an ally but once again they betrayed him and find themselves in deep water due to their unbelievably bad decisions. If the team want to believe that the Wraith are mindless killers and never to be trusted then I don't see them ever defeating them.... the ancients didnt even manage that. But here we had an opportunity to actually have one of them on their side and could have gained intell or information from Michael and possibly come to some sort of allliance. Sure it's not going to happen over night and many of the wraith would not be interested ... but if Michael is willing to try and help them and come up some some other method of feeding then who is to say that there are not many more wraith out there who may think the same... we know they have honour..(Common Ground).. but in Misbegotten it was the humans who were without honor and unwilling to do anything but engage in the Wraiths distruction. This kind of thinking may be their downfall and again if the ancients couldn't defeat the Wraith by battleing out with them how can a handfull of humans achieve this.

I've always believed that there is so much more to the wraith than mindless killers... and it was nice to see this come to fruition in Common Ground but the team could have taken the first step here in Misbegotten to find this out.

I agree, it was so satisfying to have Common Ground show a different aspect to the Wraith. A lot of shows tend to lock one particular mentality/characteristic in place with one particular alien species and forget about any sort of development or growth [like the Ferengi/Klingons, etc. in Star Trek] so I love any hints into a greater complexity in the Wraith society.

And what you said about rooting for the bad guys? I gave up feeling sympathy for the marines and just encouraged the wraith to go do their thing. Because it was honestly that stupid a situation, I had no respect for that decision, *regardless* of whether we agree who is to blame for it. I wish they'd listened to Ronon for a change. And I love Carson, but I wanted to slap him. Our heroes tend to be this weird mix of naivete and self-sacrifice and cynicism. They'll do what they can to baby the poor humanified Wraith along, they'll risk their lives taking care of their enemy and then they'll go and end any hopes of winning Michael over to their side. I felt his pain, I was sympathetic to his situation, more than anyone else's. Because he can't stay with his kind, they don't accept him; the humans want to manipulate or kill him...he's an outcast through no fault of his own, and it would've been more merciful to just kill them all. Not to mention, oh, *smart*, maybe?

Yeade
September 13th, 2007, 07:00 AM
What bugs me is how the writers wimped out. They went for the let's-angst-over-the-insanely-obvious necessity of killing all the humanified Wraiths. [snip] Realistically, who would agonize over killing the Wraith when they're an ongoing threat, regardless of how harmless they seem right now? The resources alone required to keep their camp going is just impractical.
The team had an opportunity to use Michael as an ally but once again they betrayed him and find themselves in deep water due to their unbelievably bad decisions. If the team want to believe that the Wraith are mindless killers and never to be trusted then I don't see them ever defeating them... [snip] I think it would have been more humane to kill the wraith on the hive ship rather than what they were doing to them on the planet.I find the whole retrovirus arc really complicated. It's important to keep in mind, I think, that the Atlanteans are a "weird mix of naivete and self-sacrifice and cynicism" (phrase courtesy of borgprincess). These are not practical people. They stepped through the stargate to a new and unknown galaxy on a quite possibly one-way trip because they are mainly idealists and optimists. Now their time in Pegasus--where nearly everybody has been forced by the Wraith to extreme pragmatism--has battered their lofty principles. I don't think the expedition, as a whole, has been able to find a balance between those original hopes and reality. Or, perhaps, the Atlanteans don't quite believe that they've changed and think they can always revert to the high morals of the time before they encountered the Wraith. As a result, the Atlanteans vacillate endlessly on the Wraith--one moment, they take the expedient approach of killing Wraith by the thousands; the next, they work the retrovirus and attempt to integrate ex-Wraith with humans, which is fatally flawed despite being a brilliant theoretical solution.

The SGA folks simply don't know what to do. And I can't blame them because, honestly, if I were in their situation, I wouldn't be sure how to proceed either. The "clean" answer of genocide is rather unpalatable morally and, given advanced Wraith technology and heavy Wraith superiority in numbers, probably not militarily feasible anyways. What, then, is left? Clearly, surrender is not an option. Negotiation, too, is difficult when the party you're trying to come to terms with sees you as meatloaf. The Wraith-human conflict is not one that can easily be resolved by compromise.

Regarding Michael, correct me if I'm wrong, but he stated no intention of allying with the Atlanteans. In fact, IIRC, Michael wanted Atlantis to provide him with a ship and supplies (including the means to defend himself?) so that he may leave. Um. That spells "security risk" to me. When told the expedition could not release him, Michael wanted death. Yes, he did cooperate with the Atlanteans in "No Man's Land"--indeed, came up with the idea of using the retrovirus on his former hive. This, however, was a matter of self-preservation for Michael and doesn't mean he's at all interested in a permanent truce. I think the chances of that were ruined by the Atlanteans having forced the retrovirus on him in the first place.

Atlantis would have better luck with the "Common Ground" Wraith, IMO, and his hive. Provided he vouches for Sheppard and, by extension, the rest of the expedition. Prior to the emergence of the Asurans as a threat to both the Wraith and humans, I don't think the Atlanteans could've found a common goal to pursue with even this (relatively) friendly Wraith.

Trek_Girl42
September 19th, 2007, 11:10 PM
Really enjoyed the ep! Seeing Woolsey in an Atlantis uniform. :jack_new_anime06: Great scene between him and Caldwell- always love it when actors who have played two of my favourite characters from two different shows, get a scene together.

Loved seeing Michael de-wraithified, again. Why do I have that nagging suspician that he'll be back..... ;)

And was glad to see more Beckett in this one. It was a pretty good progression of the retrovirus storyline, which I wasn't particularly keen on in the first episodes that it was introduced, but ever since "Michael", I've been liking it more, and it'll be interesting to see how it progresses from here. :)

AvatarIII
January 22nd, 2008, 06:50 AM
why are some of the de-wraith bald? and some have long hair, even grunt wraith have long hair!
i also love the awful white wigs some of the extras wear. Classic!!

Sp!der
July 18th, 2008, 07:32 AM
liked the episode. and omg i love michael ^^

Butlersgate
March 6th, 2009, 09:54 AM
It was a pretty good progression of the retrovirus storyline, which I wasn't particularly keen on in the first episodes that it was introduced, but ever since "Michael", I've been liking it more, and it'll be interesting to see how it progresses from here. :)

yeah that was the same with me :D

major davis
May 12th, 2009, 05:29 PM
Wonderful way to wrap up some of the plot.

9/10

clauz89
May 26th, 2009, 07:20 AM
nice episode, particularly when becket is kept prisoner by michael...


why are some of the de-wraith bald? and some have long hair, even grunt wraith have long hair!
i also love the awful white wigs some of the extras wear. Classic!!

I think that bold de-wraith were wraith soldiers...

escyos
June 5th, 2009, 12:18 AM
dont really like the wraith centred episodes

Dr. Selene Ankarres
October 26th, 2009, 11:32 AM
why are some of the de-wraith bald? and some have long hair, even grunt wraith have long hair!
i also love the awful white wigs some of the extras wear. Classic!!

I thought the bald ones were originally drones who had survived and the ones with long hair were commanders ect.

helenmagnus23
November 21st, 2009, 03:26 AM
Originally Posted by AvatarIII
why are some of the de-wraith bald? and some have long hair, even grunt wraith have long hair!
i also love the awful white wigs some of the extras wear. Classic!!

Those bald guy's are the masked wraith solider's the one's with the hair are scientist wraith,commander's there second's etc :)

I was watching the eps today and i was woundering does anyone have a pic of CH i know he's in it i just couldnt see which person/wraith he was after they got turned human ? if anyone does that be great :)

Sp!der
December 21st, 2009, 07:15 AM
just watched it today, this and "Michael" are yet one of my favorite episodes of the show!!! Loved Beckett and Michael. Teyla is awesome too, i know now what i have missed in the later seasons especially season five. Teyla. She was completely underused in season five, which was a bad move i think because she is a very important character for the atlantis movie, since she was there from the beginning she could have been more in season five is suppose, well i love her ;) :teyla::D

ktebid
March 3rd, 2010, 01:53 AM
I found this episode left a taint in my mouth. I thought they approached the handling of the human wraith well, but obviously they were ill equiped to deal with the result.

asdf1239
March 30th, 2010, 11:55 PM
how -did- the hive rescue michael and presumbably some of the other wraith...orbital bombardment from a hive aimed at a small island is not easy to survive

i wouldn't have much of a problem with the team's immoral actions if the show didn't *try* to mask them. it wouldve been better if it had acknowledged that theyve abandoned the premise of moral high ground and shown the characters in an "evil" situation without trying to justify it.

mrscopterdoc
September 3rd, 2010, 01:13 PM
I love episodes that have a dark story and then of course there is Michael. :D

maneth
January 6th, 2011, 10:55 AM
Loved this one, and Michael must be my favorite Wraith. Loved the dark story too. Not to mention that my inner trekkie went squee at having both Connor Trinneer and Robert Picardo in the same episode.

capricasix
March 18th, 2011, 03:49 PM
I just watched this ep for the first time, and am enjoying reading the discussions that happened when it first aired almost five years ago! Lots of moral ambiguity and gray areas in the episode.

Skie
March 21st, 2011, 01:57 AM
Micheal and Beckett were played fantastically!


how -did- the hive rescue michael and presumbably some of the other wraith...orbital bombardment from a hive aimed at a small island is not easy to survive
That's because Michael is a cat, having at least nine lifes as you will see in later eps. :S


i wouldn't have much of a problem with the team's immoral actions if the show didn't *try* to mask them. it wouldve been better if it had acknowledged that theyve abandoned the premise of moral high ground and shown the characters in an "evil" situation without trying to justify it.

Very good moral points here, also from bluealien and borgprincess. Old posts but still very valid.
Edit: What wondered me most: They have no moral issues (only Beckett) to let the hive use the retrovirus to turn wraiths into humans and the wraiths sucking the life painfully out of them but have a problem to give those humanized wraiths a much nicer death by killing them while they're in stasis (exlpoding the ship) and won't feel a thing.

Personally I find this whole retrovirus story way too far fetched. Think about it, they use this virus to get rid of the Iratus Bug DNA, right? So essentially you get rid of about half the DNA of an organism!!? :eek: I don't wanna know how that thing looks like. Not to mention of the technological difficulties for pulling this one of. Yes, they have gene therapy, but that's a SINGLE gene not half of the genome! I would have liked it better if they tried a gene therapy to reactivate the digestive system or really get a biological weapon (so Weir would probably not allow that). Still very difficult to do but a lot more plausible than this "turn wraith into human" plot.


Edit:
TEYLA: It is possible that a group of them acting together could communicate over much larger distances.
Ah, why don't we see that ever again? :rolleyes: Because it is convenient now for this plot but not for other eps ...

McKAY: It looks like they're all keyed into the sensors. The ship must have detected something and turned them on.
SHEPPARD: Detected what?
McKAY: Wraith life signs.
DEX: What about human?
McKAY: Still well over a hundred.
The wraith ship has life signs detectors AND can distinguish between different species. What happened to this wraith tech later. You know, all this sneaking on a hive ship of the SGA team would be quite useless, when the wraith can detect you walking around ... :rolleyes: That's a major plot hole.

Blizzah
May 5th, 2011, 03:59 AM
McKAY: It looks like they're all keyed into the sensors. The ship must have detected something and turned them on.
SHEPPARD: Detected what?
McKAY: Wraith life signs.
DEX: What about human?
McKAY: Still well over a hundred.
The wraith ship has life signs detectors AND can distinguish between different species. What happened to this wraith tech later. You know, all this sneaking on a hive ship of the SGA team would be quite useless, when the wraith can detect you walking around ... :rolleyes: That's a major plot hole.

I was annoyed by the same thing. They walk around the hive ships like they are invisible but somehow the Wraith can distinguish between species on the planet.

I did however enjoy the episode and the moral dilemmas (which have been more frequent latly). I really enjoy the Michael character but I can't believe what they keep doing to him, I mean don't they have enough enemies as it is?

Skie
May 5th, 2011, 05:34 AM
I did however enjoy the episode and the moral dilemmas (which have been more frequent latly). I really enjoy the Michael character but I can't believe what they keep doing to him, I mean don't they have enough enemies as it is?

I don't know if you like spoilers:

Believe me you gonna hate TPTB for what they do with Michael.

And for the moral dilemmas, SGA is good at rising them but VERY BAD at decently solving them. You will see that in later episodes to come. In case you are interested in the moral dilemmas, but be warned of spoilers: http://forum.gateworld.net/showthread.php?80287-TPTB-getting-cold-feet-about-going-through-with-moral-issues

rushy
May 5th, 2011, 05:56 AM
I was annoyed by the same thing. They walk around the hive ships like they are invisible but somehow the Wraith can distinguish between species on the planet.

I did however enjoy the episode and the moral dilemmas (which have been more frequent latly). I really enjoy the Michael character but I can't believe what they keep doing to him, I mean don't they have enough enemies as it is?

Michael Kenmore is my favourite character of SGA and I agree. Skip to Prodigal, Season 5 and you'll see what he has become.

Blizzah
May 6th, 2011, 06:30 AM
I don't know if you like spoilers:

Believe me you gonna hate TPTB for what they do with Michael.

And for the moral dilemmas, SGA is good at rising them but VERY BAD at decently solving them. You will see that in later episodes to come. In case you are interested in the moral dilemmas, but be warned of spoilers: http://forum.gateworld.net/showthread.php?80287-TPTB-getting-cold-feet-about-going-through-with-moral-issues

Cheers for that. I am always reading ahead -- much too impatient to wait.

mathpiglet
May 19th, 2011, 02:43 PM
Those bald guy's are the masked wraith solider's the one's with the hair are scientist wraith,commander's there second's etc :)

I was watching the eps today and i was woundering does anyone have a pic of CH i know he's in it i just couldnt see which person/wraith he was after they got turned human ? if anyone does that be great :)

Thank you. I was wondering this when I watched the episode today.

NowIWillDestroyAbydos
August 2nd, 2012, 03:28 PM
Cool ep, good to see "Dick" Woolsey in the episode. Next weeks ep looks, uh, so-so. Good to see the Jumper again (first appearance this season, amazing eh)

Thought it was kind of a meh episode.

Tomorrow, Richard Kind part 1.

Lythisrose
August 2nd, 2012, 08:52 PM
Joe Mallozzi's Blog entry (http://josephmallozzi.wordpress.com/2012/08/02/august-2-2012-days-of-stargate-atlantis-past-misbegotten-akemis-cute-culinary-creations/):

MISBEGOTTEN (302)

Do you know what I hate almost as much as driving around looking for parking? Yes, that’s right – coming up with episode titles. More of than not, we spend an entire afternoon throwing around ideas before finally settling on some inane placeholder title we can use until somebody can come up with a suitable one. These situations have given rise to inspired, strangely suitable, wholly unacceptable temporary titles like: Fool’s Goa’uld, The Red Shirt Diaries, Atlantis vs. the Space Dolphins, and Teal’c Interrupted. In the case of this episode, Paul, who took the lead on the script, went with The Grapes of Wraith until he finally came up with a title he was happy with: Begotten. And subsequently changed his mind and went with Misbegotten.

Love the premise, how the episode plays out, and the fact that it’s one of those rare occasions where Beckett is front and center in the action. But those wigs! I had a very hard time taking the dailies seriously whenever those flaxen-haired fellas strolled through the scenes. Granted, some were better than others but more than a few were unintentionally hilarious.

Another production bump I recalled concerned that “steep incline” which the wraith was purported to have taken a tumble down, presumably breaking his neck. The problem was the location had not steep angled drops and the only incline they had was maybe 45 degrees at best. In the end, we used a little camera trickery to sell it – but it still wasn’t wholly convincing.

Great moral dilemma at episode’s end when Sheppard and Beckett briefly debate the best course of action as the sensors detect the approach of the hive ship. As much as it may have seemed morally suspect, I think that Sheppard made the right call. I’m sure there’ll be those who disagree.

Richard Woolsey visits Atlantis, holding Weir’s fate as Commander of the Atlantis expedition in the balance – and comes through for her, further cementing his redemption in the eyes of longtime viewers.

Finally, actor Chris Heyerdahl changes sides, from the role of the Athosian Halling to that of a wraith – and, eventually, THE wraith we’ll come to know and love as Todd.

Thoughts?

Lieutenant Sparrow
August 3rd, 2012, 12:53 AM
An okay ep.

It really didn't turn out so well with the un wraithed Wraith. It did look funny seeing all these albinos walking around.

The size difference between the Daedalus and Hive ships is funny. And to think Prometheus was even smaller.

Poor Michael. Always getting toyed with. It's our own fault he becomes such an enemy later on.

Can't have been easy to fire on the planet like that. Beckett wasn't impressed. Another ship that didn't last long.

garhkal
August 3rd, 2012, 11:58 AM
The size difference between the Daedalus and Hive ships is funny. And to think Prometheus was even smaller.
.

Makes me wonder if they will ever have a ship size guide like star trek and star wars had..

Krisz
August 3rd, 2012, 03:26 PM
Yes, I agree that it's not surprising Michael becomes the enemy. Wonder if he could have become an ally if the Atlanteans took the chance with what they created.

Now they have more 'Michaels' wandering aimlessly around in a forest. Just creepy with the white hair and confused almost vacant 'human' faces as they struggle with remembering who they are supposed to be. The whole thing looked set to fail, seemed to me that Beckett was just too trusting that his retrovirus worked well enough to keep this time bomb in check.

Morganrone93
August 9th, 2012, 02:18 PM
It greatly disturbs me that they keep having the mindset that the wraith who are temporarily humans, really are humans.. They are in war for godsake, stop showing mercy.. They should have flushed out all the former wraith and Michael along with them before they even reached Atlantis.

Lieutenant Sparrow
August 9th, 2012, 05:37 PM
Makes me wonder if they will ever have a ship size guide like star trek and star wars had..

I have seen fan made ones. But I would like an official one.

Matt G
August 13th, 2012, 01:10 AM
Midweek, another ep of Atlantis...

1. Forgot about the initial tension when Sheppard's hive ship showed up.

2. Also forgot how much of a headache it was to get this to work.

3. Reverting Michael to human a second time still wasn't the greatest idea but what other options were there? Killing the guy would have been harsh.

4. The borgprincess description of the Atlanteans is why I like them, they remind them of me sometimes.

5. Very well played from MIchael, I think he got his memory back before everyone else.

Solid ep.

jelgate
August 14th, 2012, 09:12 PM
Fool me once shame you. Fool me twice shame on me.

I have to wonder what the Atlantis expedition was thinking with this episode. Micheal proved that using the retrovirus on Wraith just doesn't work. It just seems funny that they thought it was a good idea to abandon a bunch of amnesia people on a planet who could revert back to Wraith at any moment. In fact with the secrecy of Atlantis it seems idiotic to do that. Any one of these Wraith could reveal the existence of Atlantis. It also annoys me how Sheppherd and the others kill everyone on the planet and yet Micheal mysteriously survives. That made no sense in future episodes and it was never explained how he was capable of surviving such an attack by the Atlantis team. I forgot about the moral dilema Beckett and Sheppherd had. Probably a good point to add given they now are human. But they are still Wraith that will revert back to their murderous instinct as shown in this episode when they capture Beckett. Does anyone else find that the Weir and Woosley stuff was mostly filler? Woosley being an arse to the main cast only at the end to say that Weir did a good job seems like filler because the A story was too short

Jae'a
August 26th, 2012, 02:43 AM
My LiveJournal post (http://jo-r-lee.livejournal.com/68062.html)
Shep was right in the last ep, this did end pretty badly. But messing with Nature always does...

Infinite-Possibilities
September 27th, 2012, 12:46 AM
I was (halfheartedly) watching part of this episode again just now and I began to wonder: Who was it that made the call to use the retrovirus on Michael again? The order of events shown on screen seems to imply that it was ambiguous, whether Weir and Woolsey had arrived on Atlantis. So was it Elizabeth? Beckett? Shepard? Somebody else? We never actually saw them make the decision of talk about deciding what to do amongst themselves. And This was one of their most pivotal ones too.

mrscopterdoc
August 20th, 2014, 04:49 PM
Loved this one, and Michael must be my favorite Wraith. Loved the dark story too. Not to mention that my inner trekkie went squee at having both Connor Trinneer and Robert Picardo in the same episode.I think I like Michael almost as much as Todd and I do love Connor as well

Todd the Wraith Worshipper
April 25th, 2016, 06:45 AM
Sorry if this has already been mentioned...but long-range subspace communication? How the heck can that be an evolved trait?? And even if you argue that the Wraith could've performed genetic modifications, we're talking about something that technology is typically needed for. And besides, the way the writers chose to present the ceremony was very "primal" looking, so I believe they wanted this to look like a natural ability.

I mean I know there's always suspension of disbelief needed, no matter how imaginative the sci-fi piece is (except for The Expanse, that show is darn-near hard sci-fi, and they really did their homework when it comes to the physics - by the way, can we say d**m or h*ll on here? Nor sure if those count as profanity), and in addition to that, the examples of the Wraith's psychic abilities have indeed broken relativistic laws on many occasions, but still...what they demonstrated in that episode seems like a bit of a stretch.