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GateWorld
July 14th, 2006, 02:46 PM
<DIV ALIGN="center"><TABLE WIDTH="450" BORDER="0" CELLSPACING="0" CELLPADDING="7"><TR><TD><DIV ALIGN="left"><FONT FACE="Verdana, Arial, san-serif" SIZE="2" COLOR="#000000"><A HREF="http://www.gateworld.net/sg1/s10/1004.shtml"><IMG SRC="http://www.gateworld.net/sg1/graphics/1004.jpg" WIDTH="160" HEIGHT="120" ALIGN="right" HSPACE="10" VSPACE="2" BORDER="0" STYLE="border: 1px black solid" ALT="Visit the Episode Guide"></A><FONT SIZE="1" COLOR="#888888">SG-1 SEASON TEN</FONT>
<FONT SIZE="4"><A HREF="http://www.gateworld.net/sg1/s10/1004.shtml" STYLE="text-decoration: none">INSIDERS</A></FONT>
<FONT SIZE="1">EPISODE NUMBER - 1004</FONT>
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Stargate Command captures several copies of Baal and must determine which one is the genuine article.

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NowIWillDestroyAbydos
August 4th, 2006, 07:08 PM
It was a good episode. this season is still getting better and better (even tonight's ep wasn't as good as last weeks'). Next weeks looks worse that tonight's, but the one in 2 weeks looks better then the last 4, and yes I'm talking about the 200th episode.

Lt. Colonel Ryu Gaia
August 4th, 2006, 07:08 PM
Okay, so, this episode definitely exceeded expectations. The plot, while decent, didn't win the episode for me, but the team interaction and the way Vala and Mitchell fit so well into the team did.

A satisfying episode.

OVERALL: ***

Dani347
August 4th, 2006, 07:09 PM
I didn't watch this straight through, so I'm going to be very sketchy on the plot and details (when am I ever not?).

First, although (at least from what I saw) Vala and Sam still haven't shared any personal conversations, I thought they had a nice chemistry together and can imagine them being friends.

Did they say where Daniel was? I know they mentioned him being gone, but did they say where? And, I mean Daniel, not MS.

Why was Vala leading the soldiers in her group when they were all spaced out around the base? She was giving out the hand signals and seemed to be in charge of that group. I know she's one of the main characters, but since she's only a probationary member, you'd think she'd be paired up with an SG1 member and would be following their lead.

Why? Why did they have to have Barrett turn? Although, I still say he looks different than he did before. Like he got a nose job.

I still find the clones stupid, but this was a better use for them than "did we kill the real Ba'al?"

Descent
August 4th, 2006, 07:10 PM
Good episode, looks like Earths slowly becoming untrustworthy territory. Gotta love all those Baals.

7/10 from me

Brianamarie
August 4th, 2006, 07:15 PM
Did they say where Daniel was? I know they mentioned him being gone, but did they say where? And, I mean Daniel, not MS.


They said he was at Camelot, trying to find something in Merlin's books.

I enjoyed the episode. Even though the writers need to be bopped for the excessive amount of Baal double entendres. *bop*bop*bop* I like almost any episode with Baal, since he is just a great villain with a personality. Or should that be "they" are great villains...

SMEAGOL2
August 4th, 2006, 07:15 PM
I thought some for the stuff was funny. Good episdoe. Not as good as last week. Love the team interaction.

Nolamom
August 4th, 2006, 07:19 PM
I liked that the writers finally put it into canon that Mitchel is NOT the team leader. He was kinda sweet the way he said that he and Carter were the same rank and that Daniel and Teal'c were both civilians - really, he hasn't got any troops to lead.

TechnoBoY
August 4th, 2006, 07:20 PM
I was waiting for them to explain Barrets dumbness.

I though the episode was okay.

Nolamom
August 4th, 2006, 07:26 PM
I was waiting for them to explain Barrets dumbness.

Yeah, break out the old zaytarc detector.

captain jake
August 4th, 2006, 07:26 PM
Leadership issues- The quote "" kind of disturbed me until I realized that jack never had control of his team either. I still hold strong in my belief that the command of sg-1 is held by no other than colonel Mitchell. However carter has allot more power over the teams decisions than I originally speculated.

Vala- Wow, do we have a case of bipolar disorder on are hands or what? One episode she is a little pigtail princess, than she turns into a suave quick to the mouth chick, and it doesn't stop there. I have yet to figure out who she truly is and this episode pushed her character over the edge. Don't get me wrong I love Vala I just don't know which one of her to love.:confused:

Foothold issue- How in the world did it escalate that quickly? It would seem that we would have had allot more security than we did...... I suppose it was just one of those things, I can overlook it.

Overall I liked this episode it was in no means the best of the season but I would give it 8 1/2 out of 10.

CCA
August 4th, 2006, 07:29 PM
Again another episode I shall be rewatching, I really am enjoying this season...definitely some good lines here and there. Again hahah liked when Vala was arm wreastling Teal'C! I really don't have much to say just that I enjoyed it a lot :D (could be the fact that I know I have to be up at 5.am is what keeping my brain from truly functioning)

Nolamom
August 4th, 2006, 07:38 PM
Leadership issues- The quote "" kind of disturbed me until I realized that jack never had control of his team either.
I disagree - Jack led through loyalty. Teal'c and Daniel were fiercely loyal to him and would follow him to Nehtu and back. So yeah, he did have control of "his" team. The problem is that SG-1 is still primarily Jack's team, not Cam's. Cam would have been a great addition to Jack's team, and that's what he was expecting to become when he requested the assignment. He did get the gang pulled back together, but without the leader that they all loved, it has a very different dynamic.

Tonight's episode was nice. Not flashy, not over the top, but nice. My husband and I were laughing over all the Baal jokes. We wanted to see just how far the writers were going to take it - and they took it pretty darn far!

bitnine
August 4th, 2006, 07:39 PM
Foothold issue- How in the world did it escalate that quickly? It would seem that we would have had allot more security than we did...... I suppose it was just one of those things, I can overlook it.I suppose one might assume that Barret both went in at the moment of greatest vulnerability, scouted the gaurds, and relayed that information to Ba'al.

Also it was convenient. ;)

Mitchell82
August 4th, 2006, 07:44 PM
I absolutly loved this episode. It was funny, serious and overall great. I am loving this season even more! Can't wait for next week the trailer looks great!

eirenne
August 4th, 2006, 07:44 PM
I liked that the writers finally put it into canon that Mitchel is NOT the team leader. He was kinda sweet the way he said that he and Carter were the same rank and that Daniel and Teal'c were both civilians - really, he hasn't got any troops to lead.

I guess what I got out of it is that he can't control individuals but ultimately he is responsible for the team. He's still the leader of SG1.

captain jake
August 4th, 2006, 07:46 PM
I disagree - Jack led through loyalty. Teal'c and Daniel were fiercely loyal to him and would follow him to Nehtu and back. So yeah, he did have control of "his" team. The problem is that SG-1 is still primarily Jack's team, not Cam's. Cam would have been a great addition to Jack's team, and that's what he was expecting to become when he requested the assignment. He did get the gang pulled back together, but without the leader that they all loved, it has a very different dynamic.

You don't think Daniel, Teal'c, and Sam are loyal to cam? Well thats just ridiculous in my opinion, I believe there is a huge difference in having control of your team and having the loyalty of your team. I suppose we are at a deadlock because I think what makes up sg-1 is a bunch of people with individual thought processes AKA a bunch of out of control people (which is one of the most appealing aspects of the show IMO).




Also it was convenient.

which is why I said I could overlook it.

shester
August 4th, 2006, 07:46 PM
I guess what I got out of it is that he can't control individuals but ultimately he is responsible for the team. He's still the leader of SG1.

I agree. This is the conclusion I came up with too.

Sybil

shester
August 4th, 2006, 07:50 PM
You don't think Daniel, Teal'c, and Sam are loyal to cam? Well thats just ridiculous in my opinion, I believe there is a huge difference in having control of your team and having the loyalty of your team. I suppose we are at a deadlock because I think what makes up sg-1 is a bunch of people with individual thought processes AKA a bunch of out of control people (which is one of the most appealing aspects of the show IMO).


I like the way you think. Cam is definitely the team leader.


Sybil

Mitchell82
August 4th, 2006, 07:56 PM
I like the way you think. Cam is definitely the team leader.


Sybil
I'm fine with that! He showed great abliites tonight and so did Vala! Excellent episode I want next Friday already!

ShardsofGlass
August 4th, 2006, 08:00 PM
Gosh, this was another boring episode, though not nearly as bad as Morpheus. It's like they spent half the episode explaining what happened in past episodes. Yawn. Every Baal episode is like this. His history goes back so far that the writers think they have to tell us all these details of past things that just slow down the action and make it feel like I need to take notes, and that's not what I want to do with my entertainment. And Sam's conflict was sooooo tame. I felt no jeopardy for anyone during her capture. And I have no idea why Landry said it was okay for her to have given away the information she did at the end of the ep. That seemed backwards to me.

I did like Vala in this ep. She's back to the Vala I like. However, what in the world's happened to Cam? Does he have to be so grim all the time? Ugh. The Cam from last season would've smiled once in a while and had a little fun with Sam at the end of the ep. I miss the guy that gave Sam a high five in Arthur's Mantle and told her she looks like Mary Poppins in OTG.

BTW, to me it was obvious Mitchell is in charge of the team and its leader. His conversation with Landry was about his leadership STYLE, and how he doesn't try to control anyone. Otherwise why would Landry be talking to him at all about this? In the conversation Landry was asking the team leader how he was going to control Vala. He wouldn't be asking that of anyone if they weren't the leader. And Mitchell's reply was taht he didn't try to control anyone on his team. His team. That's key.

captain jake
August 4th, 2006, 08:07 PM
I didn't watch this straight through, so I'm going to be very sketchy on the plot and details (when am I ever not?).

First, although (at least from what I saw) Vala and Sam still haven't shared any personal conversations, I thought they had a nice chemistry together and can imagine them being friends.

Did they say where Daniel was? I know they mentioned him being gone, but did they say where? And, I mean Daniel, not MS.

Why was Vala leading the soldiers in her group when they were all spaced out around the base? She was giving out the hand signals and seemed to be in charge of that group. I know she's one of the main characters, but since she's only a probationary member, you'd think she'd be paired up with an SG1 member and would be following their lead.

Why? Why did they have to have Barrett turn? Although, I still say he looks different than he did before. Like he got a nose job.

I still find the clones stupid, but this was a better use for them than "did we kill the real Ba'al?"

I find most of your posts to be pretty insightful so I wouldn't worry about it if I was you.

Frankly they only have 2 Things in common 1 they both are female and 2 they have both had a gou'ald in there head. Sorry to say this but I don't think Sam thinks much of Vala.

He was at Camelot looking for Merlin's weapon.

Well I didn't notice it when I was watching it but now that you mention it............. I am really curious to know where TPTB are taking her character.

I don't think he "turned" more like he was brainwashed against his will. As for the nose job....... I don't care.

I don't know, I kinda like having all those Baal's around;) Haha I had to throw that in.

CCA
August 4th, 2006, 08:12 PM
Oh yeah and maybe I was the only one thinking this with the little numbers on the Baal's, I just could just see in my head "no I'm number one!" "I do not want to be second,...second is for losers." "Yeah well I'm number one so tough, besides I called it first" sorry I know it's ludacris but I just wondered how they came up with the number system lol

Livi2Jack
August 4th, 2006, 08:14 PM
I have to wonder if the writers have ever researched what security protocols really are in the military and highly secure facilities and projects. And yes I do know.

For Sam to be able to enter a code to unlock a database, she would have to be the IT nerd in the room which no one ever visits or even heard of. That being said, her rank is not sufficient for that kind of global access. In fact, had she had such access, and still gave up the code, she would be courts martialed. Deservedly so. There is absolutely no way the ending could have happened with Landry telling her she did the right thing.

Now, for creativity, what ever happened to fake data? What about fractured data. It's never all in one place. Searches are possible through data but not the whole database. And it would never never be yielded up by a real military officer. That was an insult to everyone who has given his/her life for country to protect information.

The ending was so patently ridiculous that it left a bad taste in my mouth. I urge the writers to sit down with Air Force security people and really go through a debriefing/security consultation about these matters. Whatever little they have reviewed is insufficient.

the fifth man
August 4th, 2006, 08:15 PM
How surprising, another episode that I thoroughly enjoyed.;) This season just keeps on rolling IMO. Four eps in, and I'm loving Season 10.:) Also, I'm glad our boy Ba'al (well, several of them actually) survived to threaten us another day.

Dromag67
August 4th, 2006, 08:15 PM
Good episode, but last week was better.

Vala was once again halarious and of course the Jaffa haven't gotten any smarter.

I loved how the two Ba'als were fighting, poor Barret hope they get him straightened out.

Sela
August 4th, 2006, 08:19 PM
Now I know why Jack O'Neill is coming back: to kick the butts of everyone in the SGC including and especially his old team.

I was motified at the way the SGC handled this foothold situation. This whole thing was a major screw-up beginning with the decision to not scramble our space troops to make sure that our skies were clear of any other Goa'uld vessels. Never have they handled anything so badly in the history of the operation. The kids in "Proving Ground" handled things better than this group did.

Everyone seemed to be two beats behind everything the Ba'als did. It was like they were moving in a fog. One of the clones might have gotten out, I can give you that, but how in H-E- double toothpicks did they allow all of the rest of the Ba'als to be freed? Weren't any of them under guard? Then, once they got out and they decided to go after them, what were they thinking giving Vala charge of trained SG troops? Were all of the other senior SG team leaders on vacation? They wouldn't even give her a real gun when they took her to the planet (and we don't even want to talk about that!) but yet she gets to tell our best and brightest what to do? What the - ?!

And Sam - the moment they left the real Ba'al alone in the room with her, why didn't she take his gun away from him and beat the crap out of him with it? We're not even going to talk about the way they got the addresses of her by just threatening to shoot Barrett. That information was so important they should have had to shoot everyone in the base before she gave it to them. She caved way too fast and that was extremely disappointing.

The only thing I liked about this episode was Siler's contribution. Other than that, I was really completely disapointed in the whole thing and I was really looking for to seeing Ba'al again.

kirmit
August 4th, 2006, 08:19 PM
Good episode, but last week was better.

Do you actually expect episodes to get better and better every week? There's always going to be better episodes but they don't have to go in order, I'm not ranting btw lol just don't see why people say 'but last week was better'.

Mitchell82
August 4th, 2006, 08:19 PM
I have to wonder if the writers have ever researched what security protocols really are in the military and highly secure facilities and projects. And yes I do know.

For Sam to be able to enter a code to unlock a database, she would have to be the IT nerd in the room which no one ever visits or even heard of. That being said, her rank is not sufficient for that kind of global access. In fact, had she had such access, and still gave up the code, she would be courts martialed. Deservedly so. There is absolutely no way the ending could have happened with Landry telling her she did the right thing.

Now, for creativity, what ever happened to fake data? What about fractured data. It's never all in one place. Searches are possible through data but not the whole database. And it would never never be yielded up by a real military officer. That was an insult to everyone who has given his/her life for country to protect information.

The ending was so patently ridiculous that it left a bad taste in my mouth. I urge the writers to sit down with Air Force security people and really go through a debriefing/security consultation about these matters. Whatever little they have reviewed is insufficient.
Ok this is a little rough. First off as I stated many times before, they know plenty about military secruity and protocols. Carter had no time to switch for fake data and to enter a database, one that Carter is qualified to acess and would have the code fo is legit. Now if you didn't like the episode fine thats you right. I however found it very enjoyable and it kept me intrested all the way through.

eirenne
August 4th, 2006, 08:20 PM
I have to wonder if the writers have ever researched what security protocols really are in the military and highly secure facilities and projects. And yes I do know.

For Sam to be able to enter a code to unlock a database, she would have to be the IT nerd in the room which no one ever visits or even heard of. That being said, her rank is not sufficient for that kind of global access. In fact, had she had such access, and still gave up the code, she would be courts martialed. Deservedly so. There is absolutely no way the ending could have happened with Landry telling her she did the right thing.

Now, for creativity, what ever happened to fake data? What about fractured data. It's never all in one place. Searches are possible through data but not the whole database. And it would never never be yielded up by a real military officer. That was an insult to everyone who has given his/her life for country to protect information.

The ending was so patently ridiculous that it left a bad taste in my mouth. I urge the writers to sit down with Air Force security people and really go through a debriefing/security consultation about these matters. Whatever little they have reviewed is insufficient.


This is a television show after all. There are bound to be things that wouldn't jive in the RL.

FoolishPleasure
August 4th, 2006, 08:21 PM
There was no way TPTB were going to top last week's episode, so the family just sat back to see what happened. Normally I get bored with the Ba'al clones eppys but this one was rather good. Yeah, there were a lot of jokes, but we all had fun with them. Mitchell's talk about leadership was a nice nod to all of us who have been arguing the issue (and he IS the leader. *LOL*). I like Vala and her "improvisations". Poor Barrett, wondering what will become of him now.

I could nit-pick about a few things, but it isn't worth it. We all had fun with the episode. :)

shester
August 4th, 2006, 08:23 PM
I have to wonder if the writers have ever researched what security protocols really are in the military and highly secure facilities and projects. And yes I do know.

For Sam to be able to enter a code to unlock a database, she would have to be the IT nerd in the room which no one ever visits or even heard of. That being said, her rank is not sufficient for that kind of global access. In fact, had she had such access, and still gave up the code, she would be courts martialed. Deservedly so. There is absolutely no way the ending could have happened with Landry telling her she did the right thing.

Now, for creativity, what ever happened to fake data? What about fractured data. It's never all in one place. Searches are possible through data but not the whole database. And it would never never be yielded up by a real military officer. That was an insult to everyone who has given his/her life for country to protect information.

The ending was so patently ridiculous that it left a bad taste in my mouth. I urge the writers to sit down with Air Force security people and really go through a debriefing/security consultation about these matters. Whatever little they have reviewed is insufficient.

If you want accuracy then how do you justify the Stargate by real world standards since there are no Stargates?

Sybil

the fifth man
August 4th, 2006, 08:24 PM
This is a television show after all. There are bound to be things that wouldn't jive in the RL.

Without a doubt. One can't nit-pick every little thing, or that's all we'd do sometimes with shows. Things happened to fit the storyline. I don't think the team or SGC personnel acted foolishly at all. Ba'al, all of them, just got the upper hand - something I might add that's happened various times throughout the history of this show with bad guys.

Mitchell82
August 4th, 2006, 08:25 PM
There was no way TPTB were going to top last week's episode, so the family just sat back to see what happened. Normally I get bored with the Ba'al clones eppys but this one was rather good. Yeah, there were a lot of jokes, but we all had fun with them. Mitchell's talk about leadership was a nice nod to all of us who have been arguing the issue (and he IS the leader. *LOL*). I like Vala and her "improvisations". Poor Barrett, wondering what will become of him now.

I could nit-pick about a few things, but it isn't worth it. We all had fun with the episode. :)
Yes we did. I think it's pointless to compare each episode to another. Just enjoy each episode in its own right and just sit back an enjoy.Thats what my wife and I did and we really enjoyed this episode.

captain jake
August 4th, 2006, 08:31 PM
Without a doubt. One can't nit-pick every little thing, or that's all we'd do sometimes with shows. Things happened to fit the storyline. I don't think the team or SGC personnel acted foolishly at all. Ba'al, all of them, just got the upper hand - something I might add that's happened various times throughout the history of this show with bad guys.

Exactly I mean what sci-fi show in the history of sci-fi shows has molded to the normal way of life....... Are you still thinking? However I do enjoy pointing out a few things I would have done differently. After all that is part of what the forum was made for.

O, and I figured out why it was so easy to capture all 20 of them. They set it up that way the Baal's wanted to be caught. Which is why they grouped together and didn't bother with personal shields or better bases.

the fifth man
August 4th, 2006, 08:33 PM
O, and I figured out why it was so easy to capture all 20 of them. They set it up that way the Baal's wanted to be caught. Which is why they grouped together and didn't bother with personal shields or better bases.

Yep! And as for losing some Jaffa, they're expendable anyways in Ba'al's eyes.

captain jake
August 4th, 2006, 08:37 PM
Yep! And as for losing some Jaffa, they're expendable anyways in Ba'al's eyes.

Especially when you are talking about a weapon that is capable of wiping out the Ori. After that he will be able to raise a freshly recruited army of jaffa. I would assume that seeing Ba'al wipe out the Ori would change allot of the free jaffa minds.

Mitchell82
August 4th, 2006, 08:37 PM
I bet none of them was the real Baal, the worst is yet to come!

Sparky13
August 4th, 2006, 08:38 PM
High Points: Vala, who is beyond awesome. Mitchell... Browder, actually, whose interrogation scene with Baal was really excellent. Let's hear it for the "Farscape" people, because they make the show much more interesting and lively. Especially when Daniel's not around. Cliff Simon...rocks.

Low points: Sorry to be totally shallow, but Sam's hair? Gives new meaning to the term "blown dry." Second, perhaps it was the directing or the acting or the script but I didn't catch whether Barrett was really brainwashed or whether he "turned" for some reason and willingly conspired with Baal. The scenes with Sam in the storage room...I didn't get a real sense of danger, perhaps because Sam assumed that the Baals could not leave the facility. Also, the Baal jokes were funny, but I still like O'Neill's bocci thing better in "Abyss."

Anyway, all in all, an okay ep.

OldSchoolKlingon
August 4th, 2006, 08:40 PM
I thought that the weapon on Dakara was destroyed by the Jaffa? Why was it talked about in this episode as if it still existed?

Major Gambit
August 4th, 2006, 08:42 PM
This was a really cool episode. Vala was awsome. I was nice to fight jaffa once more :D

Iguana775
August 4th, 2006, 08:43 PM
I have to wonder if the writers have ever researched what security protocols really are in the military and highly secure facilities and projects. And yes I do know.

For Sam to be able to enter a code to unlock a database, she would have to be the IT nerd in the room which no one ever visits or even heard of. That being said, her rank is not sufficient for that kind of global access. In fact, had she had such access, and still gave up the code, she would be courts martialed. Deservedly so. There is absolutely no way the ending could have happened with Landry telling her she did the right thing.

Now, for creativity, what ever happened to fake data? What about fractured data. It's never all in one place. Searches are possible through data but not the whole database. And it would never never be yielded up by a real military officer. That was an insult to everyone who has given his/her life for country to protect information.

The ending was so patently ridiculous that it left a bad taste in my mouth. I urge the writers to sit down with Air Force security people and really go through a debriefing/security consultation about these matters. Whatever little they have reviewed is insufficient.

I found it very hard to believe that Carter would give up the data so easily. She knows how important it is. very out of character.

Btw, anyone else think that Barrett is the REAL Ba'al just in another body?

but, it was a good episode. very enjoyable Stargate night. ;)

coolove
August 4th, 2006, 08:44 PM
Oh, how I love the many Baals. :) Good episode. I enjoyed it.

Terrarin
August 4th, 2006, 08:44 PM
Now I know why Jack O'Neill is coming back: to kick the butts of everyone in the SGC including and especially his old team. ........
--
And Sam....We're not even going to talk about the way they got the addresses of her by just threatening to shoot Barrett. That information was so important they should have had to shoot everyone in the base before she gave it to them. She caved way too fast and that was extremely disappointing.

THE OLD (PAST) LEADER OF SG-1 WOULD'VE UNDERSTOOD...WE NEED JACK BACK TO SAVE US FROM THE KINDER, GENTLER SGC.:jack:


This is a television show after all. There are bound to be things that wouldn't jive in the RL.
To me, one of the greatest things about the show has been how it has managed to keep a touch of reality mixed in with the fantasy.


Oh, and did anyone else really wish that the poison would have 'culled' a few more from the flock?

captain jake
August 4th, 2006, 08:46 PM
I found it very hard to believe that Carter would give up the data so easily. She knows how important it is. very out of character.

Btw, anyone else think that Barrett is the REAL Ba'al just in another body?

What other choice did she have? I think she realized that there was no way to get out of the base. (well to her knowledge)

Sam would have sensed the naquadah............ so no.

the fifth man
August 4th, 2006, 08:48 PM
THE OLD (PAST) LEADER OF SG-1 WOULD'VE UNDERSTOOD...WE NEED JACK BACK TO SAVE US FROM THE KINDER, GENTLER SGC.:jack:

Come on. Jack wouldn't have put that all together either. He'd been fooled many a time in the past on this show.

Major Gambit
August 4th, 2006, 08:48 PM
oh ya, one more thing.....NO DANIEL?! :daniel:

Sela
August 4th, 2006, 08:50 PM
THE OLD (PAST) LEADER OF SG-1 WOULD'VE UNDERSTOOD...WE NEED JACK BACK TO SAVE US FROM THE KINDER, GENTLER SGC.:jack:
LOL! It was a kinder-gentler SGC. They have definately lost their hard, cutting edge. Jack would have blown the darn thing up before he would have let them take over. No one even mentioned the self-destruct tonight!

Camello of Abydos
August 4th, 2006, 08:51 PM
I loved this episode it's back down to earth, the Ori are ok, but I like that they bring back a Goa'uld; and the fact that it's Ba'al is nice, because I like Ba'al (for a bad dude ).:baal: I like how Vala was arm wrestling Tea'lc! :valaanime06: And Siler was in it the fist time this season YES!

JanusAncient
August 4th, 2006, 08:53 PM
Leave it to Ba'al to be one to outwit the whole team. Good episode, because of Ba'al. But, is anyone other than myself beginning to think, that all of this was planned by the Ancient's. Think about it, they didn't tell Anubis where Atlantis was, but they let him in on knowledge of a weapon that can kill ascended beings, that's hard to swallow.

sarievenea
August 4th, 2006, 08:54 PM
I do get bored with Goa'uld issues in this "new" SG-1, though I understand the importance of keeping the original enemies around. Ba'al is boring, that's all there is to it.

Sam capitulated waaay to early. I mean, Barrett? He's obnoxious.

I loved Vala, just annoying enough to be her, but starting to show a serious, SG-1-worthy attitude. (Though I missed Daniel.)

And FINALLY-Cam admits he's not The Boss, but part of a team. I am interested in whether they will continue to play with the leadership issues on the team, especially in high-risk situations.

All-around decent, just part of the bigger plot.

MasySyma
August 4th, 2006, 08:59 PM
This episode started with such promise and what was a 10/10 episode tripped at the end. I hate when that happens.

The episode began wonderfully. I'm not nomally a big fan of Ba'al, and I did not care for his clones in Season 9; however, this season, he was funny. The ball jokes were amusing, and the team dynamic worked well.

Vala was used well, and I like seeing that Daniel is not her keeper. I also liked the official declaration of Cam as leader in name only. Everyone on the team functions as an individual unit. Even the 20+ clones were cute.

That said, I loved the episode until Sam got stupid. I was suspecting that our NID boy was some kind of Ba'al tool, but I was suprised that Carter just handed over the data. I hate when Sam gets stupid, and she seems to do it once a season, i.e. Chimera and Gemini. Her intelligent, strong, military character turns into a passive wuss who just gives the villain what he or she wants. I kept expecting her to say that she had really given Ba'al the list of all the volcano planets or that the file was really a virus, but nope; she just gave him all the info the SGC had on the weapon. If the SGC wouldn't bargin for her, I don't see why she had to bargin for Barrett.

Overall, I liked the episode, and I am enjoying Season 10. I just wish that Sam's brain would not have left for part of the episode. 8/10 for character stupidity.

Gate gal
August 4th, 2006, 09:01 PM
Tonight's episode was good. I'd watch it again (and I probably will in the am), but it isn't one of the top ten greatest episodes.

I loved the interaction between Sam and Vala. I was so glad we got a Jack mention. I am relieved with the Mitchell/Landry discussion of the leadership issue. I expected that discussion to be much worse. As it is, there is room for interpretation among the fans on who's in charge. I personally would prefer Sam as the leader, but this can work.

I didn't understand why they wouldn't give Vala a real gun early in the episode, but they let her lead a team of marines at the end. Not a major gripe though, because I like Vala. I also felt like Sam was written out of character in her scene as Ba'al's prisoner. I am glad she told them to kill her rather than get the information, but I didn't like her giving into his demand to protect Barrett. I wish she had been protecting Daniel, Teal'c, Mitchell, Vala, or even Landry. I think it would have played better that way, but again not a major gripe.

All in all, good job! I was satisfied with tonight's episode, and my hubby loved every minute (and he's a pretty tough customer).

Andrew Joshua Talon
August 4th, 2006, 09:01 PM
Not bad, but not my favorite. Still, as it fits into the overall puzzle, it does well.

But why the hell wasn't the Al'Kesh intercepted way before it entered the atmosphere? Don't we have ships in orbit? Guess not...

On the other hand, I think this cinched the notion that our planes could have defended Earth pretty effectively against Goa'uld attack ships. Not motherships, but we could definitely handle Gliders and Al'kesh.

Dani347
August 4th, 2006, 09:04 PM
How in the world could Sam giving Ba'al the information be the right thing to do, like Landry said?

Descent
August 4th, 2006, 09:07 PM
oh ya, one more thing.....NO DANIEL?! :daniel:

Yep, this was one of the four episodes that Michael Shanks isn't gonna be in this year. I missed him this episode.

the fifth man
August 4th, 2006, 09:08 PM
How in the world could Sam giving Ba'al the information be the right thing to do, like Landry said?

He just didn't want her to feel even worse than she already did, most likely.

Dani347
August 4th, 2006, 09:19 PM
You don't need to lie (and unless it was the right thing to do, it was a lie) to make a Lt. Colonel and member of the premiere SG team not feel worse than they do. If he had to try and make her feel better, there wasn't something else he could have said that wasn't a flat out lie? Unless, again, it was the right thing to do, which I'm not seeing.

suse
August 4th, 2006, 09:21 PM
Not bad, but not my favorite. Still, as it fits into the overall puzzle, it does well.

But why the hell wasn't the Al'Kesh intercepted way before it entered the atmosphere? Don't we have ships in orbit? Guess not...

On the other hand, I think this cinched the notion that our planes could have defended Earth pretty effectively against Goa'uld attack ships. Not motherships, but we could definitely handle Gliders and Al'kesh.

Baal wasn't axactly trying to take anyone out there. He didn't want to get blown out of the sky by showing resistance. And it was only one, not a squadron.


Suse

Uber
August 4th, 2006, 09:21 PM
How in the world could Sam giving Ba'al the information be the right thing to do, like Landry said?Because of the situation. From Sam's perspective, she knew that there were a bunch of heavily armed SF's ready to storm the place and take out all the Ba'als if need be.

I didn't see it as Sam capitulating to her captor. I saw it as her knowing that she needed to stall for time to give her team a chance to act.

It looked as though Ba'al had set it up so that all she had to do was enter was her access code and it's clear she did something to ensure the download arrived via slow boat to China...again, to stall for time...but it didn't look like he gave her any leeway to do much else. I would have loved it had she done something to render the data unusable, but perhaps she didn't have a way to do that from where she was. It would have been cool but again, it didn't look like there was much he allowed her to do.

The immediate threat was the loss of hostages and she ensured they didn't lose any of them while relying on her team to come in and contain the situation. And for that, her actions were right on course.

Further, they made a point of saying Anubis had this same information and never found the weapon...so perhaps they were looking at it for what it was...a wash.

It was an okay episode...but I was disappointed with the resolve. I was really pulling for Barrett to be the AlphaBa'al and that he had been from before EDM. But...ah well.

Not my favorite episode but it had some great character beats with Sam and Vala and Vala and Teal'c. But it was still quite a let down after Pegasus Project, which had me giddy for a full day after seeing it.

Dromag67
August 4th, 2006, 09:28 PM
Do you actually expect episodes to get better and better every week? There's always going to be better episodes but they don't have to go in order, I'm not ranting btw lol just don't see why people say 'but last week was better'.

I never said every week would be better than the last nor did I expect or believe them too, every episode is different in its own right and that is the simple fact of life.

MasySyma
August 4th, 2006, 09:29 PM
You don't need to lie (and unless it was the right thing to do, it was a lie) to make a Lt. Colonel and member of the premiere SG team not feel worse than they do. If he had to try and make her feel better, there wasn't something else he could have said that wasn't a flat out lie? Unless, again, it was the right thing to do, which I'm not seeing.

I agree. This seems to be a nasty pattern developing around Sam's character.

In Gemini, after she helped Replicarter, instead of being told that she screwed up, she was told that it wasn't her fault. So, her character didn't learn anything.

Now, after helping Ba'al, instead of being told that she screwed up, she was again told that it wasn't really her fault. Yes, it was, but she probably won't learn anything because she will need the ability to temporarily lose her mind as she does once a season next year.

Uber
August 4th, 2006, 09:33 PM
I agree. This seems to be a nasty pattern developing around Sam's character.

In Gemini, after she helped Replicarter, instead of being told that she screwed up, she was told that it wasn't her fault. So, her character didn't learn anything.

Now, after helping Ba'al, instead of being told that she screwed up, she was again told that it wasn't really her fault. Yes, it was, but she probably won't learn anything because she will need the ability to temporarily lose her mind as she does once a season next year.Uh I won't go into Gemini, but there's a great breakdown on the Gemini thread by golfbooy, showing how everyone acted completely in character...including Carter...and that the only way to have prevented what happened would have been for them to kill Replicarter on site. http://forum.gateworld.net/showpost.php?p=4927043&postcount=411

As for what happened in Insiders, Sam expected her team and a ton of SFs to be arriving soon. With the jamming technology in place...ergo, the Ba'als aren't going anywhere...from her perspective she was stalling for time as best she could while ensuring that none of the hostages were killed.

And for that, her actions were right on.

GateLadyM
August 4th, 2006, 09:34 PM
How in the world could Sam giving Ba'al the information be the right thing to do, like Landry said?
Sam had no idea the Ba'als could escape the way they did. She thought they were trapped on the base and knew Landry would be cooking up a plan to stop them. They were all fooled.

Really liked this episode. Wasn't up to par with last week, but Pegasus Project was just extra good stuff! The Ba'al jokes were funny, liked how Vala is trying to interact with everyone, like arm wrestling Teal'c, and how Mitchell doesn't quite trust her with a gun. The scene between Vala and Ba'al was good too. I thought Barrett was going to turn out to be a Gou'ald in the end, well, he may yet be. ;)

We finally got to see the incredible, magnificent Siler!

Oh, BTW, Mitchell IS in charge. :)

CYBEREAGLE19
August 4th, 2006, 09:34 PM
I enjoyed the episode, I wonder if the real baal is ever going to be found? I like how he gave vala a zat instead of a P90, allthough a zat would be worse, looks like we have us are very own alkesh allthough I think its going to the same place as the time jumpers to never be seen again, I wonder how this week will do in the rateings, I always enjoy clif simon,

Lt. Gnatty-Bug
August 4th, 2006, 09:35 PM
Military Generals don't say stuff just to make someone happy - trust me, I've met a few. Hell, most officers in the military don't say stuff to make someone feel better. But that's not my point.
I am amongst the group that thought what Carter did was very out of character, and entirely wrong. I quote the code of conduct, article one, three, and five:
I am an American fighting in the forces that guard my country and our way of life, I am prepared to give my life in their defense.
If I am captured I will continue to resist by all means available. I will make every effort to escape and aid others to escape. I will accept neither parole nor special favors from the enemy.
Should I become a prisoner of war, I am required to give name, rank, service number, and date of birth. I will evade answering further questions to the utmost of my ability.
My point being, she's an officer in the USAF, she's learned this - probably had it beaten into her head while she was at the academy, and even at the cost of the lives of people around her, she should not of given that information so freely. What can I say, I'm a military elitist...
Other than that, I really enjoyed the episode =3

Galilahi
August 4th, 2006, 09:39 PM
i thought this ep was ok. i like the interatction between vala and sam. we always get the male bonding "i won't leave you behind" moments but the girl moments come few and far between.

vala and teal'c arm wrestling was totally cute.

sam giving in so easy bothered me too. i think it was written more as a plot device than any refelection on her character.

i really think there was a competition to come up with as many corny ball jokes as possible.

overall it was a good solid ep

L.A. Doyle
August 4th, 2006, 09:39 PM
As for what happened in Insiders, Sam expected her team and a ton of SFs to be arriving soon. With the jamming technology in place...ergo, the Ba'als aren't going anywhere...from her perspective she was stalling for time as best she could while ensuring that none of the hostages were killed.

And for that, her actions were right on.

Exactly.

L.A. Doyle
August 4th, 2006, 09:42 PM
I loved this episode it's back down to earth, the Ori are ok, but I like that they bring back a Goa'uld; and the fact that it's Ba'al is nice, because I like Ba'al (for a bad dude ).:baal: I like how Vala was arm wrestling Tea'lc! :valaanime06: And Siler was in it the fist time this season YES!

Siler! YES! I agree. I love ol Sly! I missed Daniel in this ep, but it was nice to see some Jaffa again! And the arm wrestling-priceless. :D

suse
August 4th, 2006, 09:51 PM
I truly disliked - very akin to hated - this episode. After last week I thought the characters might be treated with some respect and got my hopes up. This ep sure dashed those.

Vala was amusing. Loved her trying to "armwrestle" Teal'c using both arms. She looked like a kid. SHe also had some good lines. The lack of sexual references was a relief. 3/4 S10eps with none. Great! Liked the team interaction. Was nice to see Vala starting to fit in.

Vala leading a small team of AF personnel. Er, what happened to probationary status? She gave orders and used military hand signals. Sure. ;)

Baal jokes. Amusing. Been there, done that with Yu, but still funny.

BArrett. I really thought he was a goa'uld with no naquada. He sure acted out of character with Sam and their "relationship". I thought she put something together there. :( Apparently not.

Mitchell was suspicious of how easy one clone got caught. Why weren't they suspicious of how all of them got caught?

The Sam before S9 would have put all those Baals in one place and the strengthening of the tracking device together.


Sam knows better than to to give information to an enemy 'that cannot get away'. If she didn't know it before Gemini, she sure knew it after. ANd SG-1 has been tortured for information before. Usisng another to force information out is a common technique. Sam would never have given it up. Not even to save another life. More is as stake than a few people. . Like the galaxy if Baal gets to Merlin's weapon before SG-1 does. Why was the character sacrificed - twice! used to just hand over information to the enemy? I have theories, but this isn't the place.

Sam also woild have gotten out of that room. So it was a supply closet. It had supplies. And a network link. I'm sure sensative info like that isn't store on every hard driven on base. I'm sure she could MacGyver a way out.

Do AF personal not get trained on how to deal with a breakout/foothold situation? Patently ridiculous. Er, use the computer to make all the guards passes not work. Drop the bulkheads. Cut power. Even backup power to those sections. Bet Baal doen't know where the flashlights are. :D

Midway thru this eo it was maybe a 6 or 7 out of 10. By the end it had fropped to a 4. I've seen worse. But I've seen muchmuchmuchmuch better too.

Suse

ETA: As to this being sci-fi: Wright and Cooper used to say they were proud that they kept "one foot in the real world" when it came to miltiary protocol and daily life. Well, that's gone the way of the dodo. The AF used to have an advisor there to help keep them within most protocols. And Stargate did it so well the AF gave RDA and honorary rank. From the major "snafus" of the last two years I'd hazard a guess that the advisor is no longer there.

Uber
August 4th, 2006, 09:54 PM
I truly disliked - very akin to hated - this episode. After last week I thought the characters might be treated with some respect and got my hopes up. This ep sure dashed those.

Vala was amusing. Loved her trying to "armwrestle" Teal'c using both arms. She looked like a kid. SHe also had some good lines. The lack of sexual references was a relief. 3/4 S10eps with none. Great! Liked the team interaction. Was nice to see Vala starting to fit in.

Vala leading a small team of AF personnel. Er, what happened to probationary status? She gave orders and used military hand signals. Sure. ;)

Baal jokes. Amusing. Been there, done that with Yu, but still funny.

BArrett. I really thought he was a goa'uld with no naquada. He sure acted out of character with Sam and their "relationship". I thought she put something together there. :( Apparently not.

Mitchell was suspicious of how easy one clone got caught. Why weren't they suspicious of how all of them got caught?

The Sam before S9 would have put all those Baals in one place and the strengthening of the tracking device together.


Sam knows better than to to give information to an enemy 'that cannot get away'. If she didn't know it before Gemini, she sure knew it after. ANd SG-1 has been tortured for information before. Usisng another to force information out is a common technique. Sam would never have given it up. Not even to save another life. More is as stake than a few people. . Like the galaxy if Baal gets to Merlin's weapon before SG-1 does. Why was the character sacrificed - twice! used to just hand over information to the enemy? I have theories, but this isn't the place.

Sam also woild have gotten out of that room. So it was a supply closet. It had supplies. And a network link. I'm sure sensative info like that isn't store on every hard driven on base. I'm sure she could MacGyver a way out.

Do AF personal not get trained on how to deal with a breakout/foothold situation? Patently ridiculous. Er, use the computer to make all the guards passes not work. Drop the bulkheads. Cut power. Even backup power to those sections. Bet Baal doen't know where the flashlights are. :D

Midway thru this eo it was maybe a 6 or 7 out of 10. By the end it had fropped to a 4. I've seen worse. But I've seen muchmuchmuchmuch better too.

SuseI agree with most of what you said except the part about Sam not giving the info to Ba'al. As I pointed out earlier, she was stalling for time and preserving the lives of the other hostages waiting for the others.

I also agree that Sam would have figured a way out of the closet somehow. She's gotten out of worse scrapes than that. :rolleyes:

Uber
August 4th, 2006, 09:58 PM
I originally posted this in the Carter thread...thus the focus of this will be about her:

My sense was that Ba'al already dug up the information and all he (they) needed was the password, so to speak. Sam wasn't willing to give it up to save her own life but did do it for the sake of others.

I didn't have a problem with that. One of the Ba'als was leaving to go kill one of the hostages right then and there.

I think from her perspective, she was stalling for time so the others could get to her and contain all the clones. They then could retrieve the disk...so no harm no foul.

The writers like putting them in this situation, don't they? Where they're forced to cooperate with an untrustworthy being or beings and then get suckerpunched in the end. I think, when cleverly done, it's thoroughly entertaining. SGA's Coup d' Etat was a great example. Insiders...sadly...was not. There were just way too many plot holes in this one.

And don't get me started on Vala taking point for a team of well-trained SFs...especially when they don't even trust her with a P-90. :rolleyes:

The leadership thing...well, that certainly didn't look like Landry's cabin unless he's done a heck of a renovation job. As for the beat itself...again. It's just way to freakin' little way too freakin' late. It was Sam's command and the show would have done JUST FINE adding a Major Mitchell to the mix. If this is how they deal with what is clearly a volatile fandom issue, I shudder to think of how they will massacre any ship resolution.

Most of Sam's character beats worked great. The ones with Vala were particularly good. Same with Barrett. Great energy running there. The ones with Mitchell? Not so much. They felt forced...but then they always do with him.

I would have liked it if Barrett had turned out to be the Alpha Ba'al, not another brainwashing story...but that kind of requires depth and creativity...so...not holding my breath there.

And I understand those who said they thought it was odd that Sam didn't say anything regarding Malcolm's eruption. My perception was that she probably saw it as extremely out of character and chalked it up to him being under a lot of pressure. Later on when she puts the pieces together about what happened though, I think she factored that in as part of the side affects of his programming.

And please...make Mitchell stop trying to be funny. It makes me want to shoot him. More.

yowo
August 4th, 2006, 09:58 PM
I agree. This seems to be a nasty pattern developing around Sam's character.

In Gemini, after she helped Replicarter, instead of being told that she screwed up, she was told that it wasn't her fault. So, her character didn't learn anything.

Now, after helping Ba'al, instead of being told that she screwed up, she was again told that it wasn't really her fault. Yes, it was, but she probably won't learn anything because she will need the ability to temporarily lose her mind as she does once a season next year.



:sam:
Cater did the right thing the only thing she could do. She couldn’t let Baal kill Barrette especially when she thought Baal couldn’t get off the Base.

Vesian
August 4th, 2006, 10:07 PM
Did anyone else sit there in confusion at the beginning of the episode when Baal and SG-1 were having the discussion about Baal's plan to hijack the ancient weapon on Dakara? I mean, it may be my horrible imagination, but I distinctly remember during a certain favorite episode of mine titled "Threads" that the Jaffa pledged to DESTROY the ancient weapon after Anubis attempted to gain control of it.

...and yet, months after this, Baal decides to attempt to gain access to the Jaffa High Council with the expressed intent on gaining access to the said (destroyed) weapon? Um, PLOT HOLE, PEOPLE.

Was it destroyed or wasn't it?

Amakusa
August 4th, 2006, 10:20 PM
Like others have mentioned before, it would've been better of Barrett turned out to be Baal. But then they'd have to sideline Cliff Simon for that, so noo....

Seems to me more like their preferred method to get rid of Sam's last lingering boyfriend.

Lt. Gnatty-Bug
August 4th, 2006, 10:32 PM
I'm actually quite curious to see what happens to Barrett, I've always really liked him as a character and I loved the tension between him and Carter. Guess only time will tell, but I do hope we see him again.

suse
August 4th, 2006, 10:36 PM
I'm actually quite curious to see what happens to Barrett, I've always really liked him as a character and I loved the tension between him and Carter. Guess only time will tell, but I do hope we see him again.

I rather like Barrett also. Wonder if the Zatarc detector can help?

I'd still rather him have been a goa'uld without naquada. And left with Baal serving as an underlord.

Poor carter doesn't have much luck with guys, does she?

Suse

DEM
August 4th, 2006, 10:37 PM
My reaction to Insiders:


:sam59:

:mckayanime01:

:ronananime17:

:mckayanime01: :ronananime17: :sam34: :ronananime17: :ronananime17:

:weiranime33:

:teylaanime08:

:beckettanime09:

:cameronanime13:

:weiranime32:


:zelenka26:

yowo
August 4th, 2006, 10:37 PM
:jack_new_anime07:
I loved this episode; it was exciting and full of funny lines. I loved the interaction between the characters.
I really liked the conversation between Carter and Barrette when Barrette yelled at her and hit his hand on the table.:samanime20:
I loved the line from Baal “I know they won’t negotiate not even for you “about Carter.
I am so glad we are finally getting to see Carter be Carter again.
:samanime15: About the scene with Carter and the Baal’s… It was "NOT" out of character. Carter was not going to give up anything for her own benefit. She only gave in when Baal was going to kill Barrett, and then only because she thought there was no way they could get off the base.
I noticed that Mitchell said he didn’t have control of the team because Carter is the same rank as him, Vala listens to no one, Teal’c is an alien and Jackson is a civilian. I think this line was just to appease the fans that think Carter should be the leader of SG-1. In which I am a strong believer. Too little too late! :sam43:
So far season 10 beats season 9 1000%. :indeed:
It really feels more like the old show. :sam59:

Lord Shiva
August 4th, 2006, 10:39 PM
I liked that the writers finally put it into canon that Mitchel is NOT the team leader. He was kinda sweet the way he said that he and Carter were the same rank and that Daniel and Teal'c were both civilians - really, he hasn't got any troops to lead.

I hated that... I blanched and said out loud: "See! They said that because they were too p*ssy to say that he's in charge... I bet that'll make the Anti- fans so happy."

lol

Mitchell82
August 4th, 2006, 10:43 PM
:jack_new_anime07:
I loved this episode; it was exciting and full of funny lines. I loved the interaction between the characters.
I really liked the conversation between Carter and Barrette when Barrette yelled at her and hit his hand on the table.:samanime20:
I loved the line from Baal “I know they won’t negotiate not even for you “about Carter.
I am so glad we are finally getting to see Carter be Carter again.
:samanime15: About the scene with Carter and the Baal’s… It was "NOT" out of character. Carter was not going to give up anything for her own benefit. She only gave in when Baal was going to kill Barrett, and then only because she thought there was no way they could get off the base.
I noticed that Mitchell said he didn’t have control of the team because Carter is the same rank as him, Vala listens to no one, Teal’c is an alien and Jackson is a civilian. I think this line was just to appease the fans that think Carter should be the leader of SG-1. In which I am a strong believer. Too little too late! :sam43:
So far season 10 beats season 9 1000%. :indeed:
It really feels more like the old show. :sam59:
I really enjoyed it too! I also enjoyed season 9 but I agree that season 10 is getting better week by week. Is it Friday yet?

coolove
August 4th, 2006, 10:47 PM
Military Generals don't say stuff just to make someone happy - trust me, I've met a few. Hell, most officers in the military don't say stuff to make someone feel better. But that's not my point.
I am amongst the group that thought what Carter did was very out of character, and entirely wrong. I quote the code of conduct, article one, three, and five:
I am an American fighting in the forces that guard my country and our way of life, I am prepared to give my life in their defense.
If I am captured I will continue to resist by all means available. I will make every effort to escape and aid others to escape. I will accept neither parole nor special favors from the enemy.
Should I become a prisoner of war, I am required to give name, rank, service number, and date of birth. I will evade answering further questions to the utmost of my ability.
My point being, she's an officer in the USAF, she's learned this - probably had it beaten into her head while she was at the academy, and even at the cost of the lives of people around her, she should not of given that information so freely. What can I say, I'm a military elitist...
Other than that, I really enjoyed the episode =3


Agree with you on all points. The first thing that popped into my mind is that every person in the SGC, military or not, knows the risks of working there. I just concluded that they would lay down there lives for the safety and security of Earth. That's why I felt it was completely out of character for Sam to just agree to give up the access codes because Barrett's life was in danger. Sure, she didn't want to see him die but she has a duty to uphold. And let's face it, I wouldn't exactly go ballistic if he ended up as a red shirt.

majorsal
August 4th, 2006, 10:57 PM
my take on 'insiders'



it was alright, but that's how i've voted for every ep so far.

maybe because i'd been told what to expect, it wasn't so bad (in what some were upset about).

i think sam telling baal that she'd download the stuff when he threatened a hostage (barrett) was so she'd stop him from killing him right then and there. but, i also saw that she purposely slowed down the d/ling to buy even more time (she couldn't stop baal from immediately starting the killing any other way i believe).

as for the leadership issue... keeping in mind that next weeks could cause a stroke in me...

i saw sam leading too. and that's better than cam THE leader. yeah, i'm settling, but the entire show is settling for second best now (for me).

and believe it or not, i enjoyed this ep more than last weeks. i might be one of the only ppl on this planet to not really like 'peg project'. i liked this one better (but in no way loved).


now, for the characters:

i'm sorry to admit, but i didn't really miss daniel (sorry daniel). i think because there's so many characters now, that even one missing gives more time for the others. shouldn't be like this.

vala i'm liking more, and i loved her interaction with sam.

baal is baal. sexy, evil, sneaky.

landry was fine. i've always felt his authority.

barrett is another admirer of sam's. same old.

mitchell is acting more like an officer. i asked for this last season, so at least i can't complain when he actually starts acting like one. (still want him off MY show)

sam. i (finally) got more sam. (((:samanime20:))) i didn't have had any probs with what she did (downloading). i didn't have a prob with it in 'gemini' either. i found sam in character.



now, what i didn't like:

barrett used as admirer material. sam/other, no matter if it's one-sided, is something i've had so much of that it leaks out of my brain while the ep airs. so yeah, i'm tired of the 'horny horde of wanna-be-sam's-man' scenario. like seriously, dude.

why is vala running around the sgc with control over anyone or anything?


questions:

was barrett really brainwashed?

was what baal had downloaded really 'that' important? i mean, weren't there a LOT of planets on that list?

did any of the baals really know where the weapon was?

were any of the baal's we saw the real one?



scenes i liked:

numerous scenes between sam and vala. like, all of them.

vala and teal'c arm wrestling thing.

sam and mitchell banter with chevron guy there.

the end 'nudge' between sam and mitchell.


like i said, i liked this ep more than last weeks.





sally :sam:

memnarch
August 4th, 2006, 11:02 PM
It was nice to see Baal again. He's been consistantly one of the most interesting SG1 villains, although the whole clone thing has worn a bit thin by now. Good team interaction, despite Daniel's absence. Foremost, Vala was outstanding in this episode, and I think she's really coming into her own and showing the team she can be one of them and be useful. Her interogation of one of the Baals was rather funny. I liked Cameron better than last week. His discussion with Landry was quite nice and showed his awareness that he isn't necessarily in charge, but that he can take charge at times. Sam had some good moments throughout, although I can't believe she didn't suspect Barrett sooner. Their whole discussion in the commisary made it seem to me like Barrett was tripping or something and I think she should've been a bit more suspicious. Teal'c had a few little moments that were good as well, and Landry's hard nose attitude has grown on me a lot. He's not quite as by the book as Hammond was and I like that (not that I wouldn't give a lot to see Hammond back, for no one can replace him).

Overall I rate it 2.5/4

majorsal
August 4th, 2006, 11:11 PM
Further, they made a point of saying Anubis had this same information and never found the weapon...so perhaps they were looking at it for what it was...a wash.



that's right. i'm now remembering her mentioning that, which gave me the impression (but i didn't remember 'why') that the info might not be the end-all/be all. but we'll see.




sally :sam:

majorsal
August 4th, 2006, 11:13 PM
I agree. This seems to be a nasty pattern developing around Sam's character.

In Gemini, after she helped Replicarter, instead of being told that she screwed up, she was told that it wasn't her fault. So, her character didn't learn anything.

Now, after helping Ba'al, instead of being told that she screwed up, she was again told that it wasn't really her fault. Yes, it was, but she probably won't learn anything because she will need the ability to temporarily lose her mind as she does once a season next year.

sam didn't 'need' to be told she did something wrong; she felt it herself. in both instances.





sally :sam:

Orion's Star
August 4th, 2006, 11:26 PM
This episode was all right. It was humorous, especially in the beginning with all the Ba'al jokes. But once we got to the middle it just went downhill.

Why, why, why! would any guard ever let somebody see a prisoner while still possessing a weapon? That is Prison Procedure 101. God, that was so stupid. The guards at the SGC are always such morons. The guard at Ba'al's prison cell should have never let Barrett into see Ba'al with his gun in the first place.

Secondly, I can't believe people are trying to justify what Carter did. That was terrible. No military officer would (or should) ever, under any circumstances, give highly classified intelligence to an enemy like she did. It wouldn't matter if Ba'al threatened to kill every single person in the base, or that he couldn't go anywhere once he got what he wanted. That is immaterial. That intelligence is more valuable than those people. Someone with Carter's experience should know that. And it's not like Ba'al even made a credible threat, I mean geeze, Sam folded at just the mention of Barrett being killed. That was pathetic. I was even more ashamed of Landry coddling Sam and telling her she had done the right thing.

Uber
August 4th, 2006, 11:29 PM
This episode was all right. It was humorous, especially in the beginning with all the Ba'al jokes. But once we got to the middle it just went downhill.

Why, why, why! would any guard ever let somebody see a prisoner while still possessing a weapon? That is Prison Procedure 101. God, that was so stupid. The guards at the SGC are always such morons. The guard at Ba'al's prison cell should have never let Barrett into see Ba'al with his gun in the first place.

Secondly, I can't believe people are trying to justify what Carter did. That was terrible. No military officer would (or should) ever, under any circumstances, give highly classified intelligence to an enemy like she did. It wouldn't matter if Ba'al threatened to kill every single person in the base, or that he couldn't go anywhere once he got what he wanted. That is immaterial. That intelligence is more valuable than those people. Someone with Carter's experience should know that. And it's not like Ba'al even made a credible threat, I mean geeze, Sam folded at just the mention of Barrett being killed. That was pathetic. I was even more ashamed of Landry coddling Sam and telling her she had done the right thing.I don't think it was pathetic. I thought it was Carter stalling for time.

Kliggins
August 4th, 2006, 11:37 PM
Between Ben, Claudia and Cliff, I am on accent overload, lovely accents though they are. ;)

Still getting the Farscape feeling with all the cutesy smirks and gestures between Claudia and Ben.

majorsal
August 4th, 2006, 11:41 PM
i thought this ep was ok. i like the interatction between vala and sam. we always get the male bonding "i won't leave you behind" moments but the girl moments come few and far between.

vala and teal'c arm wrestling was totally cute.

sam giving in so easy bothered me too. i think it was written more as a plot device than any refelection on her character.



i honestly don't know how i would have reacted to that moment, because i'd read so many others views by then that they might had influenced me. about the only thing i could 'honestly' say i didn't like was sam giving baal the codes to save 'barrett's' life (has reekings of possible sam/other ship).





sally :sam:

Hatusu
August 4th, 2006, 11:46 PM
I enjoyed this episode. It was good all around, not innovative in any way but fun. It was great having Carter in the forefront again. I thought Mitchell's comment on the team's command situation was interesting. I'm starting to think someone from the show really is reading these threads.

As for Vala, I'm worried she's schizophrenic, sort of Jekyl and Hyde. Mature Vala with her hair free and ditzy Vala in pigtails. This week Vala acted in a fairly mature manner. Her voice was even at a lower register. S & M Vala seems to have totally disappeared, thank goodness. The writers need to make up their mind about how they want to write Vala... unless they are planning a surprise for us in the future:

"Sybil as played by Vala! :P

majorsal
August 4th, 2006, 11:46 PM
Sam also woild have gotten out of that room. So it was a supply closet. It had supplies. And a network link. I'm sure sensative info like that isn't store on every hard driven on base. I'm sure she could MacGyver a way out.

that's another thing. when mitchell showed up in the room, instead of sam tying to rig the door open, she was at the computer. that set off some bells for me. i was wondering what she was doing....




sally :sam:

majorsal
August 4th, 2006, 11:49 PM
The leadership thing...well, that certainly didn't look like Landry's cabin unless he's done a heck of a renovation job. As for the beat itself...again. It's just way to freakin' little way too freakin' late. It was Sam's command and the show would have done JUST FINE adding a Major Mitchell to the mix. If this is how they deal with what is clearly a volatile fandom issue, I shudder to think of how they will massacre any ship resolution.



:S

mommy


((( :love: )))








sally :sam:

majorsal
August 4th, 2006, 11:51 PM
Like others have mentioned before, it would've been better of Barrett turned out to be Baal. But then they'd have to sideline Cliff Simon for that, so noo....

Seems to me more like their preferred method to get rid of Sam's last lingering boyfriend.

last lingering male admirer you mean.

(if just having a guy like you and/or give you the look, i've got 5 new boyfriends a day :p )






sally :sam:

Agent_Dark
August 4th, 2006, 11:53 PM
Oh, and I bet the same people that are questioning Carter's judgement in giving the information across would have been demanding her resignation had she let Ba'al slaughter all the SF's and other personnel they had hostage. Landry was thanking her for it not turning into a bloodbath on top of it.

majorsal
August 4th, 2006, 11:59 PM
Between Ben, Claudia and Cliff, I am on accent overload, lovely accents though they are. ;)

Still getting the Farscape feeling with all the cutesy smirks and gestures between Claudia and Ben.

ben has an accent???





sally :sam:

Hatusu
August 5th, 2006, 12:04 AM
ben has an accent???

sally :sam:
I think it's South Carolina. :)
Correction. Browder is from Memphis, Tennessee.

majorsal
August 5th, 2006, 12:07 AM
I think it's South Carolina. :)

oh. he just sounds english speaking without any real accent (to me).






sally :sam:

Orion's Star
August 5th, 2006, 12:20 AM
Oh, and I bet the same people that are questioning Carter's judgement in giving the information across would have been demanding her resignation had she let Ba'al slaughter all the SF's and other personnel they had hostage. Landry was thanking her for it not turning into a bloodbath on top of it.
Nope. Just wondering how Carter, who is supposed to be this accomplished, experienced military vet, could make such a horrible decision, and then how Landry could pat her on the head and tell her that everything was all right.

Uber
August 5th, 2006, 12:20 AM
Oh, and I bet the same people that are questioning Carter's judgement in giving the information across would have been demanding her resignation had she let Ba'al slaughter all the SF's and other personnel they had hostage. Landry was thanking her for it not turning into a bloodbath on top of it.Yeah.

I'm trying to come up with a scenario where it would have been in character for Sam to allow the hostages to die since she had a means to stall for time and wait for the troops to contain things.

Kliggins
August 5th, 2006, 12:29 AM
ben has an accent???

sally

My dad was from the south so I hear it, not extremely pronounced, but I definitely hear it. :p

I liked this episode better than The Pegasus Project too.



I think it's South Carolina. :)

North Carolina/Tenessee I think. :)

Gwin
August 5th, 2006, 12:43 AM
Tennessee is right ;)


I liked this episode, mostly because of its good team interaction. TPTB did a great job so far, and I'm glad Mitchell fits in perfectly.
Season 9 was good, but there wasn't that much chemistry, but a search for it.
And they found it. :)

Adrius
August 5th, 2006, 12:53 AM
I am glad she told them to kill her rather than get the information, but I didn't like her giving into his demand to protect Barrett. I wish she had been protecting Daniel, Teal'c, Mitchell, Vala, or even Landry.


How in the world could Sam giving Ba'al the information be the right thing to do, like Landry said?

Him being someone aside from the core cast does not make his life any less important.

She had a duty to protect the lives of those around her.

Yes, that information could POSSIBLY be used to hurt a lot more than Barret, but in her mind, I'm sure that she saw a chance to get that information back before the Baal's escaped.. them beaming out like that was just completely unexpected.. until Sam realized it of course. You could sense she was practically crapping herself when she realized what was happening. I mean, information disk or not, at that moment she only forsaw them somehow escaping through the gate, which would have been next to impossible with the base on lockdown.

I don't blame her, it wasn't stupid. She protected the lives immediately in danger and was hoping they could get the info back before they got away. As I said, the Baal's beaming out was simply not something she thought was possible until she realized what they were doing.

Anyways, it is a cache of importatant stargate addresses from the ancient database, but I don't think it included the two newer planets.

Hard to say how this will pan out.

Agent_Dark
August 5th, 2006, 01:35 AM
Nope. Just wondering how Carter, who is supposed to be this accomplished, experienced military vet, could make such a horrible decision, and then how Landry could pat her on the head and tell her that everything was all right.
I dont really understand what else she was meant to do. Refuse to give the codes, Ba'al kills all the hostages and then what? Kills her? She already called him on that. So what would stop Ba'al from kidnapping her and then brainwashing or blending her? With her knowledge of Earth's current levels of science and technology, that could potentially be much more devastating to Earth than a weapon that kills Ascended Beings, not humans.

Orion's Star
August 5th, 2006, 01:45 AM
I dont really understand what else she was meant to do. Refuse to give the codes, Ba'al kills all the hostages and then what? Kills her? She already called him on that. So what would stop Ba'al from kidnapping her and then brainwashing or blending her? With her knowledge of Earth's current levels of science and technology, that could potentially be much more devastating to Earth than a weapon that kills Ascended Beings, not humans.
Yes, refuse to give him the codes. It really is that simple. Sometimes sacrifices have to be made for the safety of the whole galaxy. She is a soldier, she would have, should have understood that. She didn't even stall or try to come up with some way to trick Ba'al, she just gave in! I mean, her little trick to make the download longer? What was that? So instead of it taking 5 seconds it took 15 seconds? That was the best she could come up with? She didn't even try.

Agent_Dark
August 5th, 2006, 01:50 AM
Yes, refuse to give him the codes. It really is that simple. Sometimes sacrifices have to be made for the safety of the whole galaxy. She is a soldier, she would have, should have understood that. She didn't even stall or try to come up with some way to trick Ba'al, she just gave in! I mean, her little trick to make the download longer? What was that? So instead of it taking 5 seconds it took 15 seconds? That was the best she could come up with? She didn't even try.
Well considering that had a few more seconds passed, the symbiote poison would have taken out the Ba'als before they escaped... I say she got pretty damm close to sucessfully stalling for time.

Orion's Star
August 5th, 2006, 02:02 AM
Well considering that had a few more seconds passed, the symbiote poison would have taken out the Ba'als before they escaped... I say she got pretty damm close to sucessfully stalling for time.
No it didn't. Ba'al(s) was able to get the data, then attack Mitchell and company, put up a successful resistance long enough for all the Ba'als to regroup, and then escape. That was not just a few seconds after Sam giving over the data, that was several minutes.

L.A. Doyle
August 5th, 2006, 02:07 AM
i think it was written more as a plot device than any refelection on her character.


I think you're right. It wouldn't be the first time a character was sacrificed in order to move a plot along. And it could have been any one of them. This week just happened to be Sam.

Agent_Dark
August 5th, 2006, 02:19 AM
No it didn't. Ba'al(s) was able to get the data, then attack Mitchell and company, put up a successful resistance long enough for all the Ba'als to regroup, and then escape. That was not just a few seconds after Sam giving over the data, that was several minutes.
No, you misunderstood. The poison was seconds away from entering the room where the Ba'als had congregated to be beamed out. Which means Sam's stall tactic from earlier very nearly worked.

And really, I'm not sure where anyone gets the idea that Sam would allow Ba'al to kill hostages. She quite willingly put her own life on the line but had to stall for time when Ba'al threatened the hostages instead, under the impression that he wasn't going to be able to escape so easily. You know, none of this would have happened if the SGC hadn't had such poor security measures in the first place. The SF letting Barrett into the Interrogation Room by himself? The rather inneffective lockdown?

And actually, now that I'm thinking about it, the entire point behind Ba'al's little party at teh SGC was to get the list of gate addresses. I can't imagine that something as mundane as a refusal to give an access code would have stopped him.

freetoken
August 5th, 2006, 02:26 AM
Perhaps for other viewers such as myself, who has seen all of the SG-1 episodes to date, the key problem is that ep1004 doesn't get anywhere but mostly retreads old ground. For example:

- AT stated her desire to keep her character out of 'ships, but what do we have here but another Carter luster (agent Barrett.)

- the one and only highly trusted US gov't secret agent, Barrett, is now suspect and no longer can be an honest protagonist. He will always be suspect. That brings up the whole NID-can't-be-trusted meme. The problem here is that writers have too many balls in the air - too many "arcs" if you will, and not enough time to deal with them.

- still no strong leader of the team who could act as a focus for rallying our (the viewers') empathies ; no single person around which we (the viewers) can anchor our attention as being THE focus of action. The SG-1 television program is still more an action fiction than a relationship fiction, and if the action is not clear but haphazard, as in this episode, we are left wondering how this or that specific action occurred, as in this episode (ex: how quickly all the Baals got out.) We (the viewers) NEED focus to keep our attention, and it must be logical, and one of the best (and perhaps easiest) ways to do that is have our eyes on one main person, or to see the world through that one person's eyes. I think this is a really important point to stress - when trying to absorb a story in 45 minutes we need to focus, and not distract our attention.


- Yet another example of why CJ is now redundant on the set. There are too many characters for approx 45 minute episodes. In the last encounter of Baal and Teal'c they tried to kill each other (again), but here Teal'c is almost emotionless and non-existent.

- use of cliche lines (which have been also used in other episodes), such as the "Are you thinking what I'm thinking" utterance by Carter when she is alone with Vala. That scene would have been so much more effective if Carter had just looked at Vala and nodded her head - we don't need the redundant cliche!

Yup, I guess I'm one of those who is growing more and more sour on the writers. The actors are fine, the camera work is fine. We are missing some music, though... What is missing most are: (1) the writing of some deeper dialogue, and (2) clarification of plot, and (3) the bigger picture (i.e., what does all of this mean for us, the viewer.)

Orion's Star
August 5th, 2006, 02:34 AM
No, you misunderstood. The poison was seconds away from entering the room where the Ba'als had congregated to be beamed out. Which means Sam's stall tactic from earlier very nearly worked.

And really, I'm not sure where anyone gets the idea that Sam would allow Ba'al to kill hostages. She quite willingly put her own life on the line but had to stall for time when Ba'al threatened the hostages instead, under the impression that he wasn't going to be able to escape so easily. You know, none of this would have happened if the SGC hadn't had such poor security measures in the first place. The SF letting Barrett into the Interrogation Room by himself? The rather inneffective lockdown?

And actually, now that I'm thinking about it, the entire point behind Ba'al's little party at teh SGC was to get the list of gate addresses. I can't imagine that something as mundane as a refusal to give an access code would have stopped him.
I agree with you about the crappy security creating the situation in the first place. My first post in this thread mentioned the stupidity of the guard. But look, Sam is supposed to be a USAF officer and while I know this is TV, I really don't think any credible officer in the USAF would have ever given up the data, regardless if they thought that the people they were giving the data up to could never get away.

White Knight
August 5th, 2006, 02:35 AM
I thought this was the best episode yet of Season 10. I already wrote a lengthy review and don't want to repeat everything, so I'll just summarise:

* Alan McCullough!
* Baal!
* Vala's going a long way towards becoming a part of the team. I hope that continues.
* The right balance of humour and drama, with a definate emphasis on humour in the beginning that shifted towards a tense, dramatic emphasis in the end.
* Some fantastic team-building.
* "I don't think anyone's in charge." Good to be clear.
* The action scenes earlier in the episode were exciting and fun to watch, but the ones at the end had a tension and a Die Hard quality to them.
* I don't know what I enjoyed more, Carter failing to come up with a solution or Dr Lee succeeding to.
* Barrett being under the Baals' control was a little predictable - at least, I saw it coming.
* Excellent use of the 'show, don't tell' principle, especially in the teaser and with the Baal hunt (when we see SG-1 catch a couple of Baals and then hear that while they were gone SG-12 caught two as well, its not as much of a stretch as "Every time one of these dots goes out the Replicators have invaded and destroyed a mothership").

And excellent, excellent episode. I gave it a 9 out of 10.

Agent_Dark
August 5th, 2006, 02:40 AM
I agree with you about the crappy security creating the situation in the first place. My first post in this thread mentioned the stupidity of the guard. But look, Sam is supposed to be a USAF officer and while I know this is TV, I really don't think any credible officer in the USAF would have ever given up the data, regardless if they thought that the people they were giving the data up to could never get away.
I really dont think any credible officer in the USAF would allow themselves or fellow comrades to be needlessly killed either. Carter had another way - and it very nearly worked.

numpty
August 5th, 2006, 03:12 AM
Although I'm not fan of the notion, a bit of encouragement for the Barrett as Baal camp - in Fallout it is established that Baal and his minions have a drug which masks the Naquada 'smell', thus allowing a Goa'uld to worm her way into Jonas'...affections.

Not a fan as I think a fair proportion of Baal's appeal is his rather dishy host!

White Knight
August 5th, 2006, 04:07 AM
numpty, I suspected that Barrett had a cloned Baal symbiote in him.

Watt
August 5th, 2006, 04:10 AM
Just got through watching this interesting Ep.
It was good to see Daniel not there and allow Vala to come through. As I have posted before it was getting tiresome seeing Daniel manhandle Vala about and she simply wasn't allowed to develop her character. Now if only she would get over this childish crush on Daniel then we can see some of her strengths show through.
Vala leading a squad as a probationer? Well it wouldn't really happen but I guess as SG1 is the lead team maybe the respect that the soldiers shared for the original SG1 still held (IE Sg1 saved the planet 7 times? well maybe they do know what they are doing lol) This is TV so things do happen that normally wouldn't. Despite the rather "unique" way Vala does things she did ok and I reckon she'll get to know the boundries in time. WOuld love to see her go through some weapons training for SG1 though. Vala wanted her chance top prove herself and she did ok.
Cam is quite open in acknowledgement that the uniquness of SG1 is it's strength and as a good leader he goes along with that.
Carter and giving the codes (SIGH) another of her weak decisions. This babe folded like a wet rag at even the suggestion of killing the hostages.
Years ago on my very first assignment in real life I had a female OIC and she was great even years later if I get a choice to work with a female OIC or a male one I will 9-10 times pick a female OIC so I'm not against ladies leading but I am against ladies who are weak leaders, same as males, and Carter is one of the weakest leaders I have ever seen.
We have to face the fact that Carter only got to be LTC because Jack Oneil had the hots for her. Simple as, end of story. Oneils very first order of business was to promote her.
The replicant Carter that she allowed to manipulate her and the fact she blew the most well kept secret in the world to her stalker XBF Pete after only dating him for about a month or so shows how bad this lady is at leadership.
Bust her back to Major and let Cam lead.
Should she have entered the access codes? No, under no circumstances do you allow classified info of that importance to be accessed in that situation. Depending on the type of info it may also require more than one access code to access the data.
In my experience under that tight timeframe, and they were on a very tight timeframe there, you stall, stall, stall and if you lose a hostage or two you deal with it later. The bigger picture here is losing billions upon billions of lives for 6 hostages. There are such things as no hostage clauses and it's usually fairly well understood for the field guys what happens if you do get taken hostage, but the point is that she folded like a wet rag immediately even knowing the consequenses of allowing access to those codes.
Sam is no leader.
Nough said

coconutt2000
August 5th, 2006, 04:36 AM
This was a frustratingly stupid episode.

Ba'al shows up. This is a clear indicator that they should be on their guard. Instead they fall right into his trap.

Things they knew:

1) Ba'al is a multi-step thinker.
2) Ba'al wanted the information in the Cheyenne Mtn. facility's computer.
3) Ba'al wanted his clones killed.

Things they knew after they captured the second Ba'al:

1) They had to capture all the Ba'als to figure out which one was the real one.
2) They didn't know which one was the real one.

Now, it was obvious that as soon as they realized they needed to take the Ba'al clones into custody, they should've asked themselves if this was precisely what the first Ba'al had intended. It was the first thing that occurred to me.

Once they had two Ba'als in custody it doesn't take a leap of logic to decide that the best method of controlling the situation was to increase the distance between the Ba'als and what the data they wanted. Personally, I felt that they should've backed up the real data and substituted a corrupted version of the data into the computers, on the off chance that the Ba'als had a chance to get at the data. This occurred to me when the first Ba'al expressed interest in the data.

Then there's the security guard who let the NID agent into the interrogation chamber. That shouldn't have happened. NID has no military authority, and the guards would've been briefed on who had access. The guard should've called in for instructions before letting Barrett anywhere near the prisoners.

As soon as the first Ba'al escaped from his holding cell, the second order after ordering the security teams to respond should've been to lock down the database and take the pertinent data offline. Disconnecting the computer network via the routers to the affected levels should've been done as well, to further ensure that the data wouldn't be taken.

The whole thing with the anti-symbiote poison was a waste of time. The anti-symbiote poison should've been part of the base defense systems, and it should've been weaponized into grenades. But as soon as they had a Go'auld on the base, the first thing they should've done was station men at the relevant ventilation points to pump the gas into the system.

------------------

Now, I favor the use of a corrupted data set. The reason is simply that if things got so out of control that the Ba'als escaped custody and gained access to the computers, they'd get what they wanted and leave without taking a hostage with them. One of the dangers in blocking an enemy's stratagem without providing a controlled escape route is that the enemy will revert to killing indiscriminately. Thus, assuming that the Ba'als took hostages, having a corrupted data set online for them to steal would've been a way to defuse the situation, and sucker the Ba'als into believing they'd succeeded.

Toward the end of the episode, Carter catches up with the Ba'als just before they beamed out. Instead of opening fire immediately, they pause and give the Ba'als a chance to escape. Granted, none of them thought that the Ba'als could escape, but given their past experiences with Ba'al, it boggles the mind that they'd assume that he wouldn't have an escape plan that trumps their abilities to keep the clones imprisoned. They should've had a last ditch plan to kill all the Ba'als. One other thing that occurred to me when I saw the first Ba'al was that they should attach an explosive ankle bracelet, or while the Ba'als are knocked out - install another locater beacon. Also, if they'd had the symbiote gas in grenade form, they could've tossed a grenade into the room after all the Ba'als had assembled, before running into the room. Heck, a flash bang would've been a pretty neat trick too. Who runs into a room full of armed enemy combatants without a twitchy trigger finger anyhow?

Like I said, while I like Stargate and watch it religiously, the writers are allowing the Stargate command to make too many mistakes. Mistakes that I see as easily avoidable are being made in an effort to move the story along.

----------------

I forgot one more thing. I said earlier in this post that as soon as they knew what Ba'al was after, they should've increased the distance between him and what he was after. I already covered the part about protecting the data. The other option that occurred to me immediately upon the first Ba'als capture was that he should've been transferred, blind folded, to temporary holding facility on another planet.

Stargate command should be establishing forward bases throughout the galaxy. Basically small, concrete bunkers hidden near or with stargates on unpopulated planets, with emergency supplies. We all remember the use of a program used to adapt a gate dialer that stored unauthorized incoming objects and redialed the gate and sent the stored objects/people to a new address. The authorization would be embedded in the same signal used to identify SG teams.

Another problem I have with Stargate command procedures is their use Earth as the primary gate. All non-emergency traffic should be funneled through off world, forward bases. Heck, even emergency traffic should be sent to off world collection points.

Then there's the whole Ba'al/Anubis plan to set up an independent gate network. Why doesn't Stargate command grab a few unused gates and set up a fire walled network off the grid. Make it so that the only gate that can dial the new network is the Earth gate, and only by using a special dialing computer that isn't linked to the primary dialing computer.

Agent_Dark
August 5th, 2006, 05:03 AM
We have to face the fact that Carter only got to be LTC because Jack Oneil had the hots for her. Simple as, end of story. Oneils very first order of business was to promote her.
Never mind the fact that not only did her promotions fall under a normal promotion cycle, but that officer promotions are handled through the Pentagon and not any individual...

The bigger picture here is losing billions upon billions of lives for 6 hostages.
You mean Ascended beings right? Because this weapon does not kill humans. It doesn't kill any physical being for that matter. It destroys Ascended Ori and Ascended Ancients. The Ancients are big boys - I'm sure they can look after themselves. And we were going to use it on the Ori anyway...

There are such things as no hostage clauses and it's usually fairly well understood for the field guys what happens if you do get taken hostage
You mean like 'never leave a man behind' and all that? Can't be too good for morale if the official policy is 'get caught and you're on your own buddy'. Also note that these people were not 'field guys', but people stationed at a Military Base on US soil.

Carter never folded, not by any means. She did what she did to prevent the deaths of comrades. She was also counting on the fact that the rest of the SGC forces would be there stop the Ba'al's from escaping. If they were really concerned about Ba'al gaining access to that information (which they clearly knew he had knowledge about), maybe they should have stormed the room instead of waiting around?

DEM
August 5th, 2006, 06:03 AM
This was a frustratingly stupid episode.Agreed. We're living in the age of Bizarro SGC. Like your detailed analysis. Well done!

I also applaud Agent_Dark's posts. Taking the shoddiness of the plotting as a given,
I really dont think any credible officer in the USAF would allow themselves or fellow comrades to be needlessly killed either. Carter had another way - and it very nearly worked.The only reason it did NOT work was because the writers decided that -- surprise! -- symbiote poison is no longer highly potent, highly diffuse, and instantaneously lethal. :rolleyes:

keshou
August 5th, 2006, 06:12 AM
Well last week I kind of fell "in love" with the show again. :)

This week.....kind of a let down. :(

There were a few nice character beats as they continue to integrate Vala into the team. But otherwise it wasn't that exciting a story for me. I was flipping around with the remote and forgetting to change back so that's never a good sign.

Random comments......

I agree that the characterization of Vala seems a little schizophrenic from week to week. For what it's worth, I thought they hit some pretty good notes for her in this episode. And much better hair for an "SG-1" member than the pigtails she's been sporting. Vala continues to bring some much-needed energy to the show.

I was waiting for Barrett to have been snaked and was disappointed it was only brainwashing.

As for Sam. The writers have used the characters to give up key information before in vital situations if it fits their needs for future episodes. Daniel in the "omg, they shot my coffee cup!" episode comes to mind.

They need to have Ba'al and the Ba'alettes as an antagonist to race them to Merlin's weapon so Ba'al gets the list of gate addresses. I thought Sam had a pretty good reason to believe they might be able to contain Ba'al so I didn't think it was that bad. Except for the sad lack of any emotion or drama in those scenes. I remember the awesome Sam/Ba'al scenes in Reckoning II.....these were just kind of blah.

I used to love Ba'al but don't find the whole clone storyline to be that interesting. Other than giving me an opportunity to roll my eyes at all the "Ba'al" jokes. ;) :)

And what's up with Teal'c this season? I'm getting the feeling they're keeping CJ around to keep everyone on the set happy and laughing. Because they're sure not doing much with his character so far.

I gave last week's episode an 8 out of 10.

Insiders gets a 5.

DEM
August 5th, 2006, 06:29 AM
As for Vala, I'm worried she's schizophrenic, sort of Jekyl and Hyde.

I agree that the characterization of Vala seems a little schizophrenic from week to week.
:whimper:

keshou and Hatusu, know that I admire and respect you :), so please don't take this personally, but I can't let this go by. ;) It's a thing.

Schizophrenia: Mental illness characterised by hallucinations, delusions, disordered thinking, and poor reality testing. A psychosis.

Dissociative Identity Disorder (bka Multiple Personality Disorder): Characterised by the presence of two or more distinct personality or identity states, each of which intermittently or recurrently control behaviour.

e-dog
August 5th, 2006, 06:29 AM
First, I gotta be grateful for the opening blurbs and the "previously on Stargate" clips. I was able to pick up quickly what kind of person Ba'al was from the back history and his interactions with the team. So, moving on. . .

Seems to be some issues with Vala taking command. According to her conversation with Ba'al, she's no stranger to combat and/or taking charge or doing anything field work related. Hell, I know she can operate a weapon! I don't know much about her, but I assume she's never taken charge of a team, but that in my mind doesn't mean she's not capable. So I'm willing to suspend belief that she is permitted to run a team. Of course that probationary period was quite short, but if she's needed, why not bend the rules?

Besides that, her child like boredom in the meetings (swinging in the chair) and her attempts at arm wrestling Teal'C were all nice touches and added a bit of something to those scenes. I find myself looking for those little things whenever she's on screen just to see what kind of mischief she's getting into now.

The Ba'al jokes, while cheesy, still made me laugh. Gotta love that kind of humor, even if it is overdone.

I also had no problem with Sam doing what she did at the end. She was under the belief that Ba'al could not transport himself out of there, the gas was being dispersed and the base was heavily guarded. She did what she thought was best to spare the life of Barrett and other hostages given her understanding of the situation.

And let's face it, that's a big list he stole. It'll take Ba'al a long time to find what he's looking for, even with his clones. (Which he lost two of, btw. He may have lost more, but I wasn't counting too closely.)

I enjoyed this episode very much. Looking forward to next week.

Hatusu
August 5th, 2006, 06:48 AM
My dad was from the south so I hear it, not extremely pronounced, but I definitely hear it. :p

I liked this episode better than The Pegasus Project too.




North Carolina/Tenessee I think. :)
You are correct. :)

Sela
August 5th, 2006, 06:49 AM
Oh, and I bet the same people that are questioning Carter's judgement in giving the information across would have been demanding her resignation had she let Ba'al slaughter all the SF's and other personnel they had hostage. Landry was thanking her for it not turning into a bloodbath on top of it.
Not me. Not by a long shot. Carter was totally and completely wrong.

Hatusu
August 5th, 2006, 06:56 AM
:whimper:

keshou and Hatusu, know that I admire and respect you :), so please don't take this personally, but I can't let this go by. ;) It's a thing.

Schizophrenia: Mental illness characterised by hallucinations, delusions, disordered thinking, and poor reality testing. A psychosis.

Dissociative Identity Disorder (bka Multiple Personality Disorder): Characterised by the presence of two or more distinct personality or identity states, each of which intermittently or recurrently control behaviour.
You are quite correct and I don't take offense. :)

DEM
August 5th, 2006, 07:11 AM
Carter was totally and completely wrong.Ya know, my problem was that the behaviour of the whole of the SGC -- Landry -- was patently ridiculous from the word 'go'. Given how ridiculous and implausible everything leading up to that was, and once I wrapped my brain around McCullough's premises, I had no problem with Carter's actions.

keshou
August 5th, 2006, 07:12 AM
:whimper:

keshou and Hatusu, know that I admire and respect you :), so please don't take this personally, but I can't let this go by. ;) It's a thing.

Schizophrenia: Mental illness characterised by hallucinations, delusions, disordered thinking, and poor reality testing. A psychosis.

Dissociative Identity Disorder (bka Multiple Personality Disorder): Characterised by the presence of two or more distinct personality or identity states, each of which intermittently or recurrently control behaviour.
Oh you're quite correct of course. I blame Hatusu.....she said it first. ;) :)

(*just kidding* Hatusu.....please don't hurt me)

Actually I think Vala has a well-known (in the TV industry) mental illness called "writer-induced MPD". I expect it will be "cured" in time as they settle on their "ground zero" voice for the character.

Hatusu
August 5th, 2006, 07:49 AM
Oh you're quite correct of course. I blame Hatusu.....she said it first. ;) :)

(*just kidding* Hatusu.....please don't hurt me)

Actually I think Vala has a well-known (in the TV industry) mental illness called "writer-induced MPD". I expect it will be "cured" in time as they settle on their "ground zero" voice for the character.

:Dhttp://bestsmileys.com/weather/3.gif
KESHOU

It must be driving Claudia Black up the wall. Maybe the pigtails are intended to help clue her (as well as us) in on which Vala we're talking to at the moment. Wouldn't it be a hoot if Qetesh was still there somewhere in her subconcious?

captain jake
August 5th, 2006, 08:11 AM
How in the world could Sam giving Ba'al the information be the right thing to do, like Landry said?

Well she was trying to save the life of a government agent. She was going by the good old saying of "survive and you will fight another day". From her perspective there was no way out of the base. She did what she had to do to save the life's of the prisoners. O, and so what if it was a horrible mistake, people make mistakes! I think the good out weighs the bad in her situation.

Piratejenna
August 5th, 2006, 08:24 AM
:Dhttp://bestsmileys.com/weather/3.gif
KESHOU

It must be driving Claudia Black up the wall. Maybe the pigtails are intended to help clue her (as well as us) in on which Vala we're talking to at the moment. Wouldn't it be a hoot if Qetesh was still there somewhere in her subconcious?

Actually, I think that may be exactly the point, and that Vala DOES still have character traits of Qetesh - she's got both the memories and the learned behaviour somewhere hidden away, and seems to tap into them when she needs to. I don't see her as an inconsistent character, but as a very complex one. When she's focused on a particular objective, her brain is very effective and she becomes the 'strong' Vala we see in PU and here in Insiders. But she's like a gifted child - when she's bored, she's easily distracted and looking around for shiny things to play with, and when she's placed in a situation she can't control or manipulate, as in Morpheus, she becomes frustrated and brattish. I think both CB and the writers have got a pretty good handle on her voice - she's a consistently erratic wild card with conflicting internal motivations. CB once described Vala as having a 'zig-zag fruitcake brain'. I would find it unrealistic (and intensely boring) if Vala suddenly turned into a straightforward, predictable and reliable character. She's much more interesting this way, and entirely credible given what we know of her past.

OutThere
August 5th, 2006, 08:45 AM
Actually, I think that may be exactly the point, and that Vala DOES still have character traits of Qetesh - she's got both the memories and the learned behaviour somewhere hidden away, and seems to tap into them when she needs to. I don't see her as an inconsistent character, but as a very complex one. When she's focused on a particular objective, her brain is very effective and she becomes the 'strong' Vala we see in PU and here in Insiders. But she's like a gifted child - when she's bored, she's easily distracted and looking around for shiny things to play with, and when she's placed in a situation she can't control or manipulate, as in Morpheus, she becomes frustrated and brattish. I think both CB and the writers have got a pretty good handle on her voice - she's a consistently erratic wild card with conflicting internal motivations. CB once described Vala as having a 'zig-zag fruitcake brain'. I would find it unrealistic (and intensely boring) if Vala suddenly turned into a straightforward, predictable and reliable character. She's much more interesting this way, and entirely credible given what we know of her past.

Yes, I agree with that assessment of Vala's character, but I myself never would have been able to put it into words.

esoap524
August 5th, 2006, 08:49 AM
:Dhttp://bestsmileys.com/weather/3.gif
KESHOU

It must be driving Claudia Black up the wall. Maybe the pigtails are intended to help clue her (as well as us) in on which Vala we're talking to at the moment. Wouldn't it be a hoot if Qetesh was still there somewhere in her subconcious?


ah, Claudia's a trooper! I don't know if it drives her crazy but it drives me crazy. And it would be cool is Q'tesh was still hanging around.

I think this version of Vala is much better than the child-like one. I wonder if she pulls that version out to impress Daniel and get his sympathy. This time, no Daniel, she'd better look competent. I have absolutely no doubt that she's capable. She's been conning the galaxy for years, stealing, conniving, keeping a step ahead of doubtless many people who'd like to kill her--she's got to be adept at strategy and defending herself. I definitely do not see this version as boring, though--I can see where the team still wouldn't trust her. And sending her into Ba'al's cell like that...well, I began to wonder at her loyalties myself. You just never know...

As for the episode...why didn't Mitchell go and hunt her ass down when she wandered into the woods instead of standing there looking helpless. She still could have accomplished her goal and what was he gonna do to stop her--sit on her? Still, it would have made sense to have him be more proactive and follow her.

I also wondered why they stood there and stared at the screen while Ba'al was beating up on Barrett...wouldn't they have immediately jumped out to stop it?

It might have been cool to see Ba'al escape mid-episode and then have the rest devoted to trying to track him down, all the while the severity of Carter's mistake weighing down on her. that was a bad deal, even if it is a lot of gate addresses. He still has top secret information.

nevertheless, i didn't feel nit-picky till afterwards. While I watched, I enjoyed it, definitely more than Morpheus and about as much as Pegasus...Flesh and Blood is still my favorite.

buzlighty1
August 5th, 2006, 09:08 AM
My favorite line has to be "I understand you have a few extra Baal's, would you mind if i take a few off your hands?" lol. Goes down as one of the best and most funniest stargate lines in a number of years i think.

eirenne
August 5th, 2006, 09:20 AM
High Points: Vala, who is beyond awesome. Mitchell... Browder, actually, whose interrogation scene with Baal was really excellent. Let's hear it for the "Farscape" people, because they make the show much more interesting and lively. Especially when Daniel's not around.
.


I thought so too. The Mitchell interrogation scene was one of the best parts for me as well. I loved how Cam got in his face...Ben totally rocks!!!

Zoser
August 5th, 2006, 09:23 AM
This was a frustratingly stupid episode.

Ba'al shows up. This is a clear indicator that they should be on their guard. Instead they fall right into his trap.

Things they knew:

1) Ba'al is a multi-step thinker.
2) Ba'al wanted the information in the Cheyenne Mtn. facility's computer.
3) Ba'al wanted his clones killed.

Things they knew after they captured the second Ba'al:

1) They had to capture all the Ba'als to figure out which one was the real one.
2) They didn't know which one was the real one.

Now, it was obvious that as soon as they realized they needed to take the Ba'al clones into custody, they should've asked themselves if this was precisely what the first Ba'al had intended. It was the first thing that occurred to me.

Once they had two Ba'als in custody it doesn't take a leap of logic to decide that the best method of controlling the situation was to increase the distance between the Ba'als and what the data they wanted. Personally, I felt that they should've backed up the real data and substituted a corrupted version of the data into the computers, on the off chance that the Ba'als had a chance to get at the data. This occurred to me when the first Ba'al expressed interest in the data.

Then there's the security guard who let the NID agent into the interrogation chamber. That shouldn't have happened. NID has no military authority, and the guards would've been briefed on who had access. The guard should've called in for instructions before letting Barrett anywhere near the prisoners.

As soon as the first Ba'al escaped from his holding cell, the second order after ordering the security teams to respond should've been to lock down the database and take the pertinent data offline. Disconnecting the computer network via the routers to the affected levels should've been done as well, to further ensure that the data wouldn't be taken.

The whole thing with the anti-symbiote poison was a waste of time. The anti-symbiote poison should've been part of the base defense systems, and it should've been weaponized into grenades. But as soon as they had a Go'auld on the base, the first thing they should've done was station men at the relevant ventilation points to pump the gas into the system.

------------------

Now, I favor the use of a corrupted data set. The reason is simply that if things got so out of control that the Ba'als escaped custody and gained access to the computers, they'd get what they wanted and leave without taking a hostage with them. One of the dangers in blocking an enemy's stratagem without providing a controlled escape route is that the enemy will revert to killing indiscriminately. Thus, assuming that the Ba'als took hostages, having a corrupted data set online for them to steal would've been a way to defuse the situation, and sucker the Ba'als into believing they'd succeeded.

Toward the end of the episode, Carter catches up with the Ba'als just before they beamed out. Instead of opening fire immediately, they pause and give the Ba'als a chance to escape. Granted, none of them thought that the Ba'als could escape, but given their past experiences with Ba'al, it boggles the mind that they'd assume that he wouldn't have an escape plan that trumps their abilities to keep the clones imprisoned. They should've had a last ditch plan to kill all the Ba'als. One other thing that occurred to me when I saw the first Ba'al was that they should attach an explosive ankle bracelet, or while the Ba'als are knocked out - install another locater beacon. Also, if they'd had the symbiote gas in grenade form, they could've tossed a grenade into the room after all the Ba'als had assembled, before running into the room. Heck, a flash bang would've been a pretty neat trick too. Who runs into a room full of armed enemy combatants without a twitchy trigger finger anyhow?

Like I said, while I like Stargate and watch it religiously, the writers are allowing the Stargate command to make too many mistakes. Mistakes that I see as easily avoidable are being made in an effort to move the story along.

----------------

I forgot one more thing. I said earlier in this post that as soon as they knew what Ba'al was after, they should've increased the distance between him and what he was after. I already covered the part about protecting the data. The other option that occurred to me immediately upon the first Ba'als capture was that he should've been transferred, blind folded, to temporary holding facility on another planet.

Stargate command should be establishing forward bases throughout the galaxy. Basically small, concrete bunkers hidden near or with stargates on unpopulated planets, with emergency supplies. We all remember the use of a program used to adapt a gate dialer that stored unauthorized incoming objects and redialed the gate and sent the stored objects/people to a new address. The authorization would be embedded in the same signal used to identify SG teams.

Another problem I have with Stargate command procedures is their use Earth as the primary gate. All non-emergency traffic should be funneled through off world, forward bases. Heck, even emergency traffic should be sent to off world collection points.

Then there's the whole Ba'al/Anubis plan to set up an independent gate network. Why doesn't Stargate command grab a few unused gates and set up a fire walled network off the grid. Make it so that the only gate that can dial the new network is the Earth gate, and only by using a special dialing computer that isn't linked to the primary dialing computer.
When I started watching this episode I was lulled into thinking I would like it (Ba'al even a glimmer of that old guy, Jack or is it Jim) until I foolishly began to think.
Now they do have budget constraints so an off site holding area might be a bit much (I'd love to see it) but base security was a joke.
Landry doesn't seem to have a grip on his command or what he is really facing. The enemy is smart - we have to be proactive - like your idea of symbiote poison grenades. And too the computer security is nonexistent.

The Ba'al-ball jokes were tedious - we are not all 14.

Vala as usual was pointless.

How could Carter do it again?? Doesn't she remember Replicarter?

And as for the Clones escaping I think of Menace and Jack O'Neill, who would have blasted them all to hell.

And finally as for who is in command - well yeah they are like hearding cats but this is a military Air Force team - someone should be in command!

Zoser
August 5th, 2006, 09:33 AM
Actually, I think that may be exactly the point, and that Vala DOES still have character traits of Qetesh - she's got both the memories and the learned behaviour somewhere hidden away, and seems to tap into them when she needs to. I don't see her as an inconsistent character, but as a very complex one. When she's focused on a particular objective, her brain is very effective and she becomes the 'strong' Vala we see in PU and here in Insiders. But she's like a gifted child - when she's bored, she's easily distracted and looking around for shiny things to play with, and when she's placed in a situation she can't control or manipulate, as in Morpheus, she becomes frustrated and brattish. I think both CB and the writers have got a pretty good handle on her voice - she's a consistently erratic wild card with conflicting internal motivations. CB once described Vala as having a 'zig-zag fruitcake brain'. I would find it unrealistic (and intensely boring) if Vala suddenly turned into a straightforward, predictable and reliable character. She's much more interesting this way, and entirely credible given what we know of her past.
Okay if this is true why do we allow her on base never mind accepting her on SG-1? If we need her for intel then use her like Jacob or Bra'tac not an SGC member.

shockwave
August 5th, 2006, 09:47 AM
Another good episode
enjoyed watching
liked the many baals, but boy do they have bad security at the SGC
noticed that something was up with barrett when he went angry on Sam in the mess hall, first tought he was goa'ulded
love vala as usual

coolove
August 5th, 2006, 09:59 AM
My favorite line has to be "I understand you have a few extra Baal's, would you mind if i take a few off your hands?" lol. Goes down as one of the best and most funniest stargate lines in a number of years i think.

You're not alone. I cracked up at that line. Ah, reminds me of the earlier episodes ala seasons 3-4.

AutumnDream
August 5th, 2006, 10:09 AM
I loved this episode. This is like one of those normal old SG-1s that made the show cool. Also: VALA RULES! I started out as one of the anti-Vala people, back when Season 9 was starting. Now I love her. She really adds a spark to the show, amongst AT's creepily and unnaturally demure new portrayal of Sam and CJ's same old Teal'c. And most of the time, Cameron is just "there" for me. So yeah, Vala is very much welcome.

Zomg! Agent Barret went all freaky! They actually did something different and not trite with a character! Call the press! Too bad it was most likely because of brainwashing or some such nonsense.

Anyway 8/10.

creed462
August 5th, 2006, 10:10 AM
Very good ep, I loved the Baal jokes.

michey
August 5th, 2006, 11:05 AM
Loved this episode

Vala character was brilliant as usual. I thought it was good to see a team ep (although daniel was missing), as so far the eps have had the team split up doing different things with less interaction.

Captain Ødegård
August 5th, 2006, 11:24 AM
just finished watching, it was an OK episode but not as good as many others. Vala is kind of cool, and this was her first episode as one of the team. But one thing I thought of: why didn't they just quantum date the baahls?
or does that only work for dead people?

Mandysg1
August 5th, 2006, 11:37 AM
I first have to say, what the hell? Have these writers had lobotomies:S That could be the only reason for having Sam hand over top secret information to Ba'al :mad: Those who know the character of Sam, know that even faced with causing the death of others, Sam would never cave in and give over the info She would have found a way of sabotaging the info or downloading something else! It's just going to prove the point that has been made in other threads that the only way to make Cam look good is to make Carter look bad :( Well I was so angry that I turned off SciFi and didn't even watch Atlantis! Way to go PTB, you sure know how to drive your audience away!

Sorry to say this, but the way things are going I really do hope SG1 gets cancelled :mad: There is no excuse for what they have done, and they don't deserve to go on. To me SG1 ended after the end of S8.

For those of you that don't agree with my post, just remember its only my opinion and has no bearing on ratings or if the show is cancelled.

Pocus
August 5th, 2006, 11:42 AM
I liked this episode.

From the first moment that we saw Ba'al, I was wondering what he was up to. You know that he would never tell the SGC his true plan. I was just waiting for the unfolding of the story and find out what the sneaky snake was up to. He is a far thinking kinda guy. He may have seemed to be Anubis's "yes" man, but you always knew he was totally out for himself. He has not changed one bit. He just has to be a little more subtle when it comes to infiltrating the SGC.

Vala reminds me of some of the children I deal with. She is highly intelligent, street smart, and hyperactive (with a touch of attention deficit). If you find something that interests her or something she can really sink her teeth into, she will do a fantastic job. If she is not interested or not included in an activity, then she will entertain herself. She may drive you crazy, but you have to appreciate the talents she has to offer.

Mitchell's comments to Landry were insightful to me. IMO, he does not feel that he controls the team, but he does feel responsible for their actions. I think he believes that they work well together because everyone is good at something and they all benefit from their differences. He likes to take advantage of that by letting them have free reign in there area of expertise. This, of course can backfire by not giving the team a focus point. Jack gave them that. Let's hope this new style of non-leadership will work as well and not just cause confusion.

I am not sure of my feelings for Carter's actions. She did seem to give in quickly, but then again she does believe her team will back her up. IMO she did believe there was no way out for Ba'al and she was stalling to let them get a plan underway.

Piratejenna
August 5th, 2006, 11:57 AM
My thoughts on this one...

I have to be honest - I firmly believe that the 33rd Rule of Science Fiction is: 'Clones are a Bad Idea'. Admittedly there's an exception to every rule - the obvious exception to this one being 'except when you are making a film called Gattaca' - but I stand by the general principle. Attack of the Clones - Bad Idea. Even Farscape suffered the Curse of the Clone. And yes, I know it wasn't really a clone, it was a Twin, separate but equal and all that. And it's true that for Farscape, having two copies of our hero allowed them to tell stories they couldn't otherwise tell and to take the show to new heights which left the fans in a quivering mess with their heartstrings tied in a granny knot. But there is no doubt that splitting our Farscape hero into two also served to confuse the audience and probably harmed the ratings. Because. let's face it, if you leave your audience wibbling in the corner over the death of a character, only to have him appear alive and kicking next week, there's a certain potential for cognitive dislocation. And bear in mind that these were Farscape fans - the sort of people who greeted the concept of Unrealised Realities with an insouciant handwave, who were happy to accept a small rubber Hynerian Dominar who farted helium, and had no difficulty with the notion that our hero had a copy of the show's Uber-villain living in his head wearing a Hawaiian shirt and drinking Tequila. I may be wrong, but it's always been my impression that the average Stargate fan tends to be a little more demanding when it comes to having stories that make sense. My point is (Yes, I'm getting there! It's not my fault if the younger generation has the attention span of a small goldfish and is educationally ill-equipped to cope with the extended use of creative digression as a literary device...) My point is, that if Clones are a Bad Idea, a storyline which revolves around absurdly large numbers of Clones is probably a Very Very Bad Idea. It was a Bad Idea in Season 9, and the passing of time has not made it any more sensible. Which means that Insiders started out with something of a disadvantage.

Given the sheer stupidity of the plot, Insiders does a very good job of being entertaining. There were lots of lovely moments of team interaction and characterisation: Vala's boredom suddenly turning to intense interest which Daniel's name was mentioned, and the return of SuperCoolVala from PU as soon as she was back on her own turf playing by her own rules; Sam's very believable switch into ActionSam when the shots were fired; and Cam's laconic honesty with Landry about the nature of his relationship with the team.

I loved the fact that Qetesh played a part in Vala's 'interrogation' of Ba'al, because it makes sense that they would have met before, and Vala's past is too important to who she is to be ignored. Interesting too that Ba'al seems to believe that she is still Qetesh. When he first saw her, I assumed he knew Vala was the ex-host and was yanking her chain and I couldn't understand why Vala didn't react more strongly. But when I watched it again I realised that Sam's 'she goes under the name of Vala now' and Vala's ambiguous reply were probably intended to fool Ba'al into believing Qetesh is still there. I guess when the Jaffa rebellion was at it's height, communications broke down so Ba'al may not have known what happened to other System Lords. And since he is perfectly happy to ally himself with the Tauri when it suits him, it probably makes sense that he believes other Goa'uld are doing the same. A Ba'al/Qetesh arc has a lot of potential so I hope it's not forgotton.

I also liked Cam's interrogation of Ba'al: Mitchell nicely low-key and sceptical but still menacing, and Ba'al's buttons being pushed just enough to remind us that under the suave persona there is a very dangerous creature. Cliff Simon does that so well...

And as a quick shout-out to nameless-extra-of-the-week, I really liked the scientist who was doing the DNA analysis (I think the actor's name in the credits was Lesley Ewan) I don't know what it was about her, but she felt very 'right' and had an interesting face (and I suspect it didn't hurt that her voice reminded me of the Doctor played by Kika Markham in 'Outland', who is up there in my pantheon of great sci-fi heroines).

One problem with with the episode (apart from the fact Clones are a Bad Idea, remember?) is Sam. She starts out fine, all the early exposition is OK and when they go off-world, Sam's in perfect military mode. (And a quick Yay! Because, like, Trees! And Jaffa! And Rings and shooting things and who says Stargate isn't what it used to be?). The first hint of a problem is Sam's interrogation of Ba'al, because the script gives her this monosyllabic Tough-Girl dialogue, but it just doesn't feel right for Sam. Sam is a person who uses reasoned argument, so having her come out with stuff like 'tell us or you're dead meat' (or words to that effect) just feels...off. And then Barrett arrives on the scene, and poor Amanda Tapping is stuck with the Meaningful Scene With Mr Zero-Personality and it's all sort of a bit downhill from there. I didn't have a particular problem with the fact she gave them the access codes - I think the way the scene played out established that she had bought time by slowing the download, and thus saved lives, and she did have good reason to believe Ba'al couldn't escape. So faced with a difficult choice, she took a sensible option (not necessarily the right one, but a reasonable one based on what she knew at the time). I think what kills it, and makes Sam's decision look worse than it is, is the fact that Landry completely exonerates her and says she did the right thing. Because the audience is not stupid and can make up it's own mind, and many people may think that it is not unambiguously clear that she did the right thing. The outcome is bad, and had Sam known then what she knows now, she would probably have acted differently. I think it would have helped sell Sam's decision if Landry's response had been more uncertain and less categorical.

The other thing I didn't really like in this episode was Vala leading the SG team - that just felt wrong. There ought to be a big sign hanging over the writer's room door saying 'Do Not Separate the Team Unless Necessary for the Plot!' And another big sign saying 'Credible Motivation Good, Out-of-Character Bad!' The Vala thing breaks both those rules. The plot only requires SG-1 to provide a diversion and fill a bit of screen-time running through the corridors shooting Ba'als. It doesn't not require them to separate into three teams. It would make far more sense for Vala to tag along behind Teal'c, especially as the actors are already giving these two a lovely, quirky little relationship which could have been exploited. And it makes no sense whatsoever for Vala, at this stage of her career, to be leading an SG team. Maybe, at some point down the road she will get there, but it's not the sort of responsibility which should be given easily, especially on the Base where there are so many qualified people to take charge.

So, generally, I enjoyed the episode. Not a classic, but lots of fun, and just like the previous three, very re-watchable, with lots of little details and character moments which are easy to miss the first time around.

jckfan55
August 5th, 2006, 11:59 AM
No, you misunderstood. The poison was seconds away from entering the room where the Ba'als had congregated to be beamed out. Which means Sam's stall tactic from earlier very nearly worked.

And really, I'm not sure where anyone gets the idea that Sam would allow Ba'al to kill hostages. She quite willingly put her own life on the line but had to stall for time when Ba'al threatened the hostages instead, under the impression that he wasn't going to be able to escape so easily. You know, none of this would have happened if the SGC hadn't had such poor security measures in the first place. The SF letting Barrett into the Interrogation Room by himself? The rather inneffective lockdown?

And actually, now that I'm thinking about it, the entire point behind Ba'al's little party at teh SGC was to get the list of gate addresses. I can't imagine that something as mundane as a refusal to give an access code would have stopped him.

I agree. Sam was in a no win situation. Her refusal would have gotten all the hostages killed & for what? I think she believed the SGC personnel would recapture the Baals and her best bet was to slow the download to stall for time.

As for the rest of the episode, I liked that there was a bit of a team feel to it. Vala wasn't OTT, which was good. Maybe as others have said, the absence of Daniel had something to do with that. Sam had a few relaxed moments with Mitchell. Not the best plotted episode, but some good spots. So far I'm liking S10 a lot more than S9.

-Major Woody
August 5th, 2006, 12:00 PM
I find two Ba'als to be quite sufficient, myself. ;)

jckfan55
August 5th, 2006, 12:09 PM
Ya know, my problem was that the behaviour of the whole of the SGC -- Landry -- was patently ridiculous from the word 'go'. Given how ridiculous and implausible everything leading up to that was, and once I wrapped my brain around McCullough's premises, I had no problem with Carter's actions.
Good point. It was one plot device after the other. I think this was one of those episodes you had to put your brain into hibernate for.

And as much as I wish Carter had been able to foil Baal, (and in this episode she couldn't b/c that would have spoiled TPTB plans for Baal down the road) letting him slaughter the hostages would not have done it. As Agent Dark says, it would have been a needless bloodbath.

LMichelle
August 5th, 2006, 12:27 PM
"You talked to Daniel?" Vala sure misses her Daniel. I hear ya, Vala. I missed him, too. However, this gave Vala a chance to interact with the team without Daniel. She did a pretty good job. However, what was up with Vala leading those soldiers and doing the handsignals? Did she take a crash course in earth military? Vala can barely stay focused during a briefing, let alone a class/seminar.

I forgot about Ba'al knowing Qetesh. I'd like some more backstory on that. I'm not surprised Vala tried to seduce him. I'm sure Mitchell told her to keep her clothes on before she went in to interrogate one of the Ba'als. ;)

Didn't like what they did with Sam. She would have tried harder to sabotage the files.

Mitchell continues to steal Crichton's lines. *shakes head* You understand me, you fellow Scapers.

Orion's Star
August 5th, 2006, 12:56 PM
I didn't have a particular problem with the fact she gave them the access codes - I think the way the scene played out established that she had bought time by slowing the download, and thus saved lives, and she did have good reason to believe Ba'al couldn't escape. So faced with a difficult choice, she took a sensible option (not necessarily the right one, but a reasonable one based on what she knew at the time). I think what kills it, and makes Sam's decision look worse than it is, is the fact that Landry completely exonerates her and says she did the right thing. Because the audience is not stupid and can make up it's own mind, and many people may think that it is not unambiguously clear that she did the right thing. The outcome is bad, and had Sam known then what she knows now, she would probably have acted differently. I think it would have helped sell Sam's decision if Landry's response had been more uncertain and less categorical.
Agreed. Well...partially agreed. I still think what she did was fairly wrong, but I think that if Landry had not said what he had said at the end, and instead had told her that she had screwed up like she actually did, then her actions would have not been so bad, relatively. Because they would have not had the official seal of approval (obviously) and the usual writers' reset button wouldn't have been pushed.

scifi woman
August 5th, 2006, 12:58 PM
[QUOTE=LMichelle However, what was up with Vala leading those soldiers and doing the handsignals? Did she take a crash course in earth military? Vala can barely stay focused during a briefing, let alone a class/seminar.
QUOTE]

Just wanted to jump in here and say that I really enjoyed the episode. I come to any TV program with an expectation of being entertained and last night's episode did just that!

In reading through the posts here in thread I am seeing many question Vala's ability to lead a squad of soldiers. I really don't understand why you all think Vala does not have the ability to be a military leader -- Ba'al himself last night paid homage to Quetesh (ala Vala) for being the briliant mind who destroyed one of his ships and a huge number of his soldiers.

The woman has a military mind (along with all her other attributes).

But before you throw rocks at me, I do understand the question of giving Vala a group to lead so quick since she is still under probationary status. That argument I will accept. But her military skills -- she's right up there with the best of them! I certainly would never under estimate her ability to lead a military campaign.

What impressed me the most last night tho was that all the actors, Ben, Claudia, Amanda, Cliff, Chris .... all seemed to be having such a good time and enjoying themselves (re, the little moments like Vala and Tealc arm-wrestling) and it translated onto the screen. And that is so infectuous. And a lot of fun to watch!

Strix varia
August 5th, 2006, 12:59 PM
There were two good things about Insiders.

First, Vala had some good scenes in which she was actually portrayed as a competent individual with something to add to the team.

Second, Daniel was able to miss the disaster that was the rest of this horrible episode, missing the fate of everyone else who underwent a personality transplant for the sake of a terrible plot.

Clearly, this was an alternate universe episode in which Landry, Barrett, and Sam never matured into fully functional adults, being stuck with the emotional and social skills of 15 year olds. Instead of Cambo this time, we had Sambo. Instead of the professional, competent Barrett, we had infatuated, cry-baby Barrett who, like Sam, was completely unrecognisable from the character we have watched previously on the show. Teal'c, who once upon a time was a great warrior, got pinned down in a corridor by a couple of Ba'als (I can't remember when Teal's was portrayed as being so impotent and incapable in his abilities). Landry was stuck with some awful lines; Mitchell was stuck with at least one cringe-worthy stare that might be better suited to a playground bully. I won't even get into the implausible and hole-filled ending in which the entire SGC was made to look like a bunch of incompetent idiots.

Needless to say, I detested this episode.

golfbooy
August 5th, 2006, 01:02 PM
Yeah, um, big shocker here: this week I've NOT developed a sense of either brevity or wit. So, the post won't be any shorter and the jokes won't be any funnier. Sorry. I know, I suck. What can I say? I'm working on it. I'm sure you'll all deal.

What to say about Insiders? Well, I liked most of it. Undoubtedly there were some things that didn't sit well with me, but overall it was another decent (if not great) effort, and it was certainly another episode that is far superior to just about anything posited as Stargate SG-1 in season nine. But I see they've still got problems with that pesky "resolution" part of the story, which marred an otherwise enjoyable episode. Insiders was certainly the most curious tale unfolded on SG-1 in a while, which I think is what I appreciated most about it. Kudos to the Goa'uld, whose devious plotting and cerebral intrigues kick the crap out of the flavorless Ori.

Honestly, I really liked the first, oh, three quarters of the episode. The interaction among the team during that time was certainly a step up from the norm last season. Alas, I have the sneaking suspicion that the actors and director are mostly responsible for the team's increasing comfort with each other. Alan McCollough proves once again that Prototype was a fluke (probably a heavily re-written one), and that he's grossly out of his depth when it comes to getting an entire episode right. Seriously, I'm beginning to think that McCollough has no idea how to script a believable resolution to any story. But I'm sure I'll rag on that in due course a bit further down.

I will say that one of the aspects of McCollough scripts that I do like is that they almost always draw heavily on SG-1's extensive mythos and history in order create a new story. There was much in this episode that works only because of the show's past: all the stuff about Anubis and his knowledge of the ascended, Jack and the Ancient repository, Baal's history with O'neill, Carter, and Teal'c, even the NID stuff with Barrett. So I really appreciated all of that being included in more than a cursory way. Part of what makes a Stargate episode a Stargate episode is that it fits in the series. One of my biggest problems with season nine is that they tried to ignore eight full years of story and development in favor of a clean break. That didn't work, and most of the episodes sucked bad because of the tactic. The writers have pretty much abandonded that philosophy in season ten. Flesh and Blood used Chulak to evoke a stronger emotional response from the audience, Pegasus Project was very much about Daniel getting to go to Atlantis and about his time among the ascended, and here in Insiders that trend continued. I hope the rest of season ten "fits" as well with the first eight seasons as these first four episodes have.

Now, I really don't want to involve myself heavily in the great leadership debate that dogs at and clouds over this new incarnation of the show like a good man's guilty conscience after he's gotten away with murder. But, I said above that Insiders was a curious episode. One of the reasons for that is because this episode was obviously intended to address that issue in a significant way. And I'm not just talking about Mitchell's exchange with Landry. Much was done in this episode to allay any claims Mitchell has to authority over SG-1, that bit of dialogue aside. The writers really did embrace the supposed concept of co-command (or no command) in this one, almost going to the point of Carter winning out. Most notably, there was the bit where they arrive on the scene with the crashed alkesh and the bit on the planet where she and Vala go to capture a clone. Beyond that, a number of things were done to lessen (for lack of a better term) Mitchell's authority. His words to Landry obviously fall into this category, but so do the tet-a-tet he and Sam have at the briefing table before capturing the Ba'als, Vala running off on him during "his" mission, and Carter's exclusion from the end briefing scene. The two were also blocked side-by-side at every instance in a clear attempt to disestablish any sense of one being "in front" of the other. This is most evident at the puddle pass after capturing the Ba'als and in the tag scene at the end. Overall, I'm not sure what to make of the whole thing. OK, that's a lie. I do know what to make of the whole thing, but I think discretion is the better part of valor here. It's just, um, curious.

The run up to the episode's conclusion was fine, even entertaining. Sam's cafeteria scene with Barrett was refreshing. I said elsewhere a few days ago that the only thing left (or that ever existed :P) for Barrett to do in the story was die. Yay for proving me wrong. Finally he was given something to actually do in an episode, something which I think worked. It certainly helps to muddy the waters with the whole NID, and to put a little bite back into the middling Trust storyline. That said, there was obviously a missed opportunity. Like most others, I'd have preferred Barrett to be either snaked with a Goa'uld clone (a la Nightwalkers) or a za'tarc (which would have made that end scene where he turns over his gun a bit more intense). Both would have been better than a return to the weak "brainwashing" equivocacy of Stronghold. However, all this is mildly palliated by Barrett's own belief that he's still himself and the slight ambiguity as to both the truth and Barrett's fate.

Now for the crap ending. I've not been a great fan of Allan McCullough, as I feel that each of his scripts haven't been thought through enough to alllow for proper resolution. The only exception to that has been Prototype, though it's my understanding that was only because both Peter DeLuise and Ben Browder agreed on the day of filming that that story's denouement should be changed. I've already read where a number of people feel that Sam acted out of character at the end of Insiders. I don't think so. See, there's a difference between being out of character and writing your characters into a corner, which is what happened here (the same thing happened to Daniel in Affinity). In fact, Ba'al was given very specific dialogue in order to tell the audience why Sam was giving him the code. He says to her (but tells the audience) that her belief that he's trapped inside the mountain is false, but that SG-1's belief that it was so was necessary to get anyone in the mountain to give him the code. I believe that McCullough was trying to put forth that Sam believed the hostages were the greatest problem at the time, and that Ba'al's potential escape was an impossibility. But it didn't work, for a number of reasons. Firstly, Ba'al is a Goa'uld. Through any number of various past situations it should have been evident that he was clever enough to escape. Secondly, SG-1 had been suspicious of Ba'al's motives from the start. Thirdly, too often the audience has seen Sam somehow stall, double-cross, trick, disable, or otherwise inveigle would-be captors or villains. To not do so here is a major cop out from McCollough. If you have to have your characters do stupid things in order to finish a story, you've failed miserably. Throw in the "stupidest SF ever gag" and the shakey "all the Ba'als are suddenly free" jump, and you're really stretching the bounds of believability. There's no doubt that this one was scripted by the same writer who created "Fat Jaffa, the most inept Jaffa ever" in Stronghold.

End of Part I (Oh, for Christ's sake)

golfbooy
August 5th, 2006, 01:02 PM
Part II (you've got to be kidding me forums)

Right, now on to the characters. Landry was good for most of the episode, but he's still got an attitude problem when it comes to dealing with others. For some reason he seems to think that he should be afforded credit for all the work that Hammond and O'neill did while they were at the SGC. His unwarranted snobbery towards Barrett and his impatience with Dr. Lee just rub me the wrong way. Do something productive, then maybe you can gloat. Speaking of productive, this was one of the first episodes where I sat up and said, "Hammond or O'neill would never do this". Like with Sam, Landry hesitating to use the symbiote poison immediately is just a dumb ass thing to do to a character. What, suddenly the symbiote poison doesn't kill instantly? Come on, McCollough.

Next, there's Daniel. Well, not really. But I do want to say that I wish there was a better excuse for Daniel not being at the SGC than him being away at Camelot. Couldn't the writers have allowed him to hang out on Atlantis for a little bit? What about the next episode? Is he still going to be all alone out there scouring Merlin's library? This is the same lame manner in which Amanda Tapping's time off was poorly accounted for in the story. It's boring and lazy.

Teal'c also didn't get to do squat this week, but the scene of him arm wrestling with Vala was great. I would have really liked to have a scene of Teal'c interrogating one of the Ba'als to go along with the rest of the cast. Honestly, just about the entire bit between Mitchell and Ba'al probably should have gone to Teal'c. He's the one with all the recent history with Ba'al, not Mitchell. And all that stuff about how evil and threatening the real Ba'al could be would have sounded a lot more credible coming from Teal'c instead of Mitchell. Teal'c has at least lived it. Please, writers, all of you. Do more with Teal'c.

I liked most of what they did with Vala this week. As far as fitting in with the team goes, she's a much better addition than Mitchell will ever be. Vala's interaction with Carter and Teal'c in this one was really well done. Carter and Vala did finally speak to each other. Way to step up there, writers. I knew you could do it. Also, I liked the bit with her running off to get the Jaffa's attention. That played well. Also a nice touch was Ba'als recognizing Vala as Quetesh. That's how backstory should be introduced, not with a big giant hammer marked "BACKSTORY".

Again, as I've said before, I think the big ol' reset has been hit on Mitchell. Four episodes into the season the jokey, brash guy from last season has been forsaken for this more subdued, grown-up version of the character. He's now quiet, almost to the point of being overly somber. Still, I find this Mitchell far more tolerable than previous incarnations, and he fit into this story pretty well, too. Having hit on the leadership bit above, I'm uninclined to speak further on the issue until a later date.

For almost all of Insiders, Carter was great. Confident and collected, this is the first time since season eight that I can really say that she was written as the lead character in an episode. It was quite natural for Carter to be ordering everyone around (yes, even Mitchell), and I don't feel that anyone else's character needed to be sacrificed in order to have that happen. I was glad to see Carter's past history with Barrett touched upon, but not overplayed for laughs or used to jerk the audience around. The commissary scene between the two of them accounted for just about the only conflict between characters this season. Conflict is not evil; it's necessary. As such, it would have been nice to see Carter angry at everyone else for not backing her up sufficiently when it came to Ba'al. If you were going to play it as if she thought the Ba'als would be immediately taken out (with symbiote poison), why not have her be angry at Landry's waiting? Conversely, it would have been nice to see Landry angry that Carter hadn't been able to buy him more time. Alas, not in New Stargate.

The Goa'uld are just a really versatile villain. Cliff Simon is great as Ba'al, and I like seeing him. But it'd also be great to get another fallen system lord out there to mix things up. Overall, the interrogation scenes were probably his best. I'm tired of the clones, though. If the Ba'al marked #1 was intended to be the real Ba'al, then the writers needed to do more to convey that. If not, the real Ba'al really needs to make an appearance soon. Kill the clones for crying out loud. They're too disposable.

Uninvited is next week, and I'm not too sure about that one. We'll see, but that monster looks funny. I don't think that's what they're shooting for. Hey, at least it doesn't hiss like the Wraith. At least I don't think so. On a happier note, Siler lives! I can't be the only one to be astounded that Jack and Siler were both onscreen last night. Woo hoo!

DEM
August 5th, 2006, 01:15 PM
(T)his was one of those episodes you had to put your brain into hibernate for. The episode did it for me.


And as much as I wish Carter had been able to foil Baal, (and in this episode she couldn't b/c that would have spoiled TPTB plans for Baal down the road) letting him slaughter the hostages would not have done it. As Agent Dark says, it would have been a needless bloodbath.Okay, I'm still catching up with the posts and I freely admit to being stupourous for stretches of the episode, so forgive in advance.... Did they SHOW the hostages after they were first captured? See, I kept forgetting them; ergo, no feeling of peril; ergo, little understanding of or empathy with Landry's and Carter's dilemmas.

A plot device I specifically want to point out and mock: The idea that Baal cracked the computer system sufficiently enough so that the desired file was already 'open' and as soon as Carter entered an access code the data began downloading. The heck?! Way to force the issue, Mr McWriter.

DEM
August 5th, 2006, 01:44 PM
First of all, curse you, golfbooy! My fries are getting cold.


In fact, Ba'al was given very specific dialogue in order to tell the audience why Sam was giving him the code. He says to her (but tells the audience) that ... SG-1's belief that {he is trapped} was necessary to get anyone in the mountain to give him the code. I believe that McCullough was trying to put forth that Sam believed the hostages were the greatest problem at the time, and that Ba'al's potential escape was an impossibility. But it didn't work, for a number of reasons. Firstly, Ba'al is a Goa'uld. Through any number of various past situations it should have been evident that he was clever enough to escape. Secondly, SG-1 had been suspicious of Ba'al's motives from the start. Thirdly, too often the audience has seen Sam somehow stall, double-cross, trick, disable, or otherwise inveigle would-be captors or villains.Yes, exactly so. What percentage of the audience do we suppose did NOT know that Baal was likely to pull a fast one? So, unless one really cranks up the peril, makes the Catch-22 so large and so binding, the characters look stupid falling for it. Neither the script nor the direction delivered.

HOWEVER, I do want to say this: A bad outcome does not a bad decision make.

(Oy, the Blue Angels just flew overhead. :sam34: Go Thunderbirds!)


I would have really liked to have a scene of Teal'c interrogating one of the Ba'als to go along with the rest of the cast. Honestly, just about the entire bit between Mitchell and Ba'al probably should have gone to Teal'c. He's the one with all the recent history with Ba'al, not Mitchell. And all that stuff about how evil and threatening the real Ba'al could be would have sounded a lot more credible coming from Teal'c instead of Mitchell. Teal'c has at least lived it. Please, writers, all of you. Do more with Teal'c.

:indeed: :indeed: :indeed:


It was quite natural for Carter to be ordering everyone around (yes, even Mitchell), and I don't feel that anyone else's character needed to be sacrificed in order to have that happen.And no one's was. See, it CAN be done! :p


I liked most of what they did with Vala this week. As far as fitting in with the team goes, she's a much better addition than Mitchell will ever be. Vala's interaction with Carter and Teal'c in this one was really well done. Carter and Vala did finally speak to each other.Yeah, I gotta admit Vala was much better -- save for the leading of the SFs. :rolleyes:

I also like the way Vala seems to hang onto Carter's every word. :valaanime03:



Conflict is not evil; it's necessary.

:jack_new_anime07: :weiranime17: :jack_new_anime07:

Very enjoyable read, golfbooy. :zelenka25:

esoap524
August 5th, 2006, 01:51 PM
I loved this episode. This is like one of those normal old SG-1s that made the show cool. Also: VALA RULES! I started out as one of the anti-Vala people, back when Season 9 was starting. Now I love her. She really adds a spark to the show, amongst AT's creepily and unnaturally demure new portrayal of Sam and CJ's same old Teal'c. And most of the time, Cameron is just "there" for me. So yeah, Vala is very much welcome.



Don't you think Carter should have slugged Barrett, or at least called him out a little more when he got in her face like that? That was a bit extreme on his part. yeah, I know, mind control. Carter's got some self control, that's for sure.


I also like the way Vala seems to hang onto Carter's every word.

DEM, amen to that. I'm glad to see that it doesn't appear that there will be any catfighting between these two. You can tell Carter gets annoyed with her every now and then but that's because of her behavior not the whole female/female thing. It's kind of the same look she gets with McKay sometimes.

And I'm firmly placed in the VALA RULES! camp.

Strix varia
August 5th, 2006, 01:56 PM
And I'm firmly placed in the VALA RULES! camp.
If they keep her dressed ;) and going in the same direction for the rest of the season, I could easily be converted to a Vala fan. I very much liked her in Insiders and wished she'd had more to do in Pegasus Project.

Uranium118
August 5th, 2006, 03:04 PM
Good episode. I like how SG1 lost this time. They usually always win and now they lost in this episode, a little change can't hurt.

Dani347
August 5th, 2006, 03:23 PM
Yeah, um, big shocker here: this week I've NOT developed a sense of either brevity or wit. So, the post won't be any shorter and the jokes won't be any funnier. Sorry. I know, I suck. What can I say? I'm working on it. I'm sure you'll all deal.

Wit is always good, so if you feel you're lacking, I wouldn't mind some work in that area. But, do not strive for brevity under any circumstances. I like reading you're incredibly long analysis (I don't know the plural) of the episodes.

Miyth
August 5th, 2006, 03:24 PM
I'm not sure how I feel about this episode, although it was about time they re-opened the whole Ba'al insident.

Farscapefan
August 5th, 2006, 03:26 PM
Sorry to say this, but the way things are going I really do hope SG1 gets cancelled :mad: There is no excuse for what they have done, and they don't deserve to go on. To me SG1 ended after the end of S8.


Really? It's getting better and better IMO. And saying that you're hoping the show gets cancelled is extremely selfish. You don't like it? Stop watching and let others (like me) ENJOY IT AS LONG AS POSSIBLE.

Insiders are really good episode. And surprisingly I haven't even missed Daniel very much.

Mr.Clark
August 5th, 2006, 03:35 PM
numpty, I suspected that Barrett had a cloned Baal symbiote in him.
I thought that, then I thought that Sam would sense it and sound the alarm.

About the hostage situation... consider this.

Sam refuses to divulge the information. Baal threatens the hostages. Sam still refuses. Baal kills a hostage. Sam refuses. Repeat until hostageTotal = '0'.

Baal then gets two of the clones to grab Carter, and a third one to implant it's sybiote into her. They then kill the clone and give the transponder to Carter-Baal.

THEN Baal has the information and all the knowledge that Carter possesses.

I'd say that was a lose-lose situation really.

Lt.Colonel John Sheppard
August 5th, 2006, 03:36 PM
I disagree - Jack led through loyalty. Teal'c and Daniel were fiercely loyal to him and would follow him to Nehtu and back. So yeah, he did have control of "his" team. The problem is that SG-1 is still primarily Jack's team, not Cam's. Cam would have been a great addition to Jack's team, and that's what he was expecting to become when he requested the assignment. He did get the gang pulled back together, but without the leader that they all loved, it has a very different dynamic.

Tonight's episode was nice. Not flashy, not over the top, but nice. My husband and I were laughing over all the Baal jokes. We wanted to see just how far the writers were going to take it - and they took it pretty darn far!


okay i agree with this Jack O'Neill led SG-1 for 7 years Teal'c automatically trusted o'neill back in the first few episodes of SG-1 Season 1. (or do i have that switched around)? Carter- well we know he has something for her that goes beyond friendship and their ranks. and Daniel- he had some problems with jack but that never stop from them forming a friendship i think all of them would do anything for one another. Cam needs to know that its going to take time for him to get where the team is with o'neill.

Mandysg1
August 5th, 2006, 03:57 PM
For those of you that don't agree with my post, just remember its only my opinion and has no bearing on ratings or if the show is cancelled.


Really? It's getting better and better IMO. And saying that you're hoping the show gets cancelled is extremely selfish. You don't like it? Stop watching and let others (like me) ENJOY IT AS LONG AS POSSIBLE.

Insiders are really good episode. And surprisingly I haven't even missed Daniel very much.

Oh I guess you didn't read my little note at the bottom, my hoping for the cancellation of the show, will not get it cancelled.

Driving fans away will get it cancelled, and from what I've seen of the ratings, they seem to be doing that quite well.

Uber
August 5th, 2006, 04:45 PM
Wit is always good, so if you feel you're lacking, I wouldn't mind some work in that area. But, do not strive for brevity under any circumstances. I like reading you're incredibly long analysis (I don't know the plural) of the episodes.I believe it's with an "e"...so "analyses."

That's a guess though. :sam43:

wolverine_nl
August 5th, 2006, 04:52 PM
I liked this ep. not too fantastic, but o.k. Vala was more integrated in the team and was working together with Sam which was nice to see. And B"aal is a classic villain ... times a few extra clones LOL:cameron:

Fargater
August 5th, 2006, 04:57 PM
Because of the situation. From Sam's perspective, she knew that there were a bunch of heavily armed SF's ready to storm the place and take out all the Ba'als if need be.

I didn't see it as Sam capitulating to her captor. I saw it as her knowing that she needed to stall for time to give her team a chance to act.

It looked as though Ba'al had set it up so that all she had to do was enter was her access code and it's clear she did something to ensure the download arrived via slow boat to China...again, to stall for time...but it didn't look like he gave her any leeway to do much else. I would have loved it had she done something to render the data unusable, but perhaps she didn't have a way to do that from where she was. It would have been cool but again, it didn't look like there was much he allowed her to do.

The immediate threat was the loss of hostages and she ensured they didn't lose any of them while relying on her team to come in and contain the situation. And for that, her actions were right on course.

Further, they made a point of saying Anubis had this same information and never found the weapon...so perhaps they were looking at it for what it was...a wash.
Thanks for this. It sort of bothered me that Sam seemed to cave so fast, and reading comments in here had me more and more disappointed in her, but I like your assessment of the situation. It did occur to me when she didn`t seem overly tense when captured that she was probably just biding her time and waiting for the others to contain the Ba`als, but giving the info just seemed wrong. But you`re right, she kept the hostages alive, and Anubis couldn`t do anything with the same info so maybe she wasn`t really giving up all that much.



Hmmm. Just had a thought. I wonder if they would have offed Barrett if they brainwashed him to their side. I guess they might have though if it would have served the purpose at the time.

captainpash
August 5th, 2006, 05:09 PM
Couple of things. Is Vala's suit tighter than Sam's? Anyways, this was a good episode. It was funny (the two ba'als fighting) there was some great action, and of course a little character stuff. It seems that Mitchell really is in charge of SG-1. When he talked about the control issue. Vala was her usual self. I loved how in the briefing she wasn't even paying attention until Daniel's name was brought up. The lack of Daniel was expected. MS said he wasn't doing an episode early in the season. Ba'al with the ancient gate address. That is going ot be a long running plot line. Anyways, good ep.

Zoser
August 5th, 2006, 05:35 PM
snipped
Part II
On a happier note, Siler lives! I can't be the only one to be astounded that Jack and Siler were both onscreen last night. Woo hoo!
Best part of the episode!!

SunKrux
August 5th, 2006, 05:45 PM
*note - if you frequent the SaGC thread...you've read this. Just wanted to share it on the "offical thread" in case TPTB do really read it. ;)

Greetings all...finally had time to watch the eps and while it wasn't the best eps so far I did enjoy it and was pleased with the Sam/Vala interactions. Go AT & CB! *does happy dance w/ Oooooober*

Vala thoughts:
I didn't have any problems with Vala's attempts to get the information SGC needed from the Ba'al she was interogating. As someone else here mentioned...She was using what she remembered from when she was Ka'tesh (sp? - sorry). I think if she had tried to use any other form of trying to get the info out of Ba'al, she wouldn't have had any better luck with that.

As for her knowing the hand signals...uh do we know the actual time line of how long she's been there? I don't think so. It's possible that she's spent time studying them and that's how she knows them. Besides...I didn't see her using a lot of them. I saw her mostly using her head to say "yes" or "no". Considering that as she, Cam and Teal'C were walking down that hall as he explained to her again (side note - I'm getting really sick of the condescending attitude Cam has towards Vala. I understand they don't trust her completely yet...but come on...condescending? :rolleyes: ) that she's to follow the "plan". She did her best to follow the plan until she and the men with her basically got pinned down. I don't even think Sam would have just sat there and let the "enemy" take her and her men without a fight. So why give Vala a ration of dren for doing the same thing? Oh wait...cause people don't like her. ;) Sorry, my bad for forgetting that. ;) :p

I did like the arm wrestling with Teal'C and the "Next time more enthusiasm from you mister" (or whatever she said after asking the guys how she looked in uniform. :D

SAM thoughts:
I don't have an issue with how Sam handled the downloading of the addresses. Sam is more compassionate about those she's working with than to just say "Frell it" and refuse to help. Hence her doing the download. Do I think she did someting to slow the process, you bet your ass she did. Why else would she have said, slyly I might add, "I don't know what your talking about." :lol:

The whole Barrett thing...since I think I missed some eps with them together I tend to look at it as he has the hots for her and is a little ticked that she doesn't return the feelings. Sam thinks of him as a friend and nothing more. (Yes it's the Jack thing for me. :p Deal! :p

I don't think the fact that the Ba'als got away with the download was her fault. They were ALL CLUELESS that he was playing them. So why folks are blaming just Sam for it is beyond me. :rolleyes:

I love that she kept telling Cam that the Ba'al collecting wasn't a competition. :lol:


So yes, I did enjoy the eps. :D

McDork
August 5th, 2006, 05:56 PM
First off.. on the issue of the whole command thing.. Cam was given command of Sg1.. NOT Daniel, Teal'c, Sam and himself.. SG1!. At that point, Daniel, Sam and Teal'c weren't even part of Sg1. Sam walked away and chose NOT to command Sg1 and that isnt Cam's fault, why should he be demoted because Sam changed her mind?!. I reckon given time he will make a good leader of Sg1. Its happening and i think its time people moved on.

But, back to the point. I liked this episode. Kind of.

I would of liked to see Daniel and more of Teal'c, but i suppose it will do.

I still adore Vala..i love her. Shes great. Although im wondering how she managed to learn the hand signals fast enough and why she was in command of her own team. :tealcanime49:

I loved the Ba'als.. the Ba'al jokes were kind of lame, but still had me laughing :shrug:

I dont believe that Sam would of given the information over so easily. And, i agree with some other posters, then foothold situation got out of hand so easily.. where the hell were all the guards?

The guard who let Barrett into the room with his gun should be shot.. and its so typical that the one trustworthy agent is now compromised.. i didnt like Barrett this episode.

Is anyone else fed up of all of Sams storylines with her revolving boyfriends?.. S9 was Orlin and Martouf.. now Barrett.. who else can be have?

Overall it was Ok.. might be worth giving it a 2nd glance.. or 3 ;)

Just a quick edit.. I loved the Teal'c/Vala arm wrestling.. it was cute.. and as the above poster said.. more enthusiasm about the uniform next time.. that had me Lol'ing :D

yowo
August 5th, 2006, 05:57 PM
Really? It's getting better and better IMO. And saying that you're hoping the show gets cancelled is extremely selfish. You don't like it? Stop watching and let others (like me) ENJOY IT AS LONG AS POSSIBLE.

Insiders are really good episode. And surprisingly I haven't even missed Daniel very much.

:sam59:
You read my mind. I hope that Stargate last for years. :jack_new_anime06: Let the fans that love it have it, :jack_new_anime07: and let the people that don’t just let it alone. :jack_new_anime25:
If the show is cancelled how can we see Carter every week? :samanime20:

Dani347
August 5th, 2006, 06:40 PM
I hope I get a million dollars and a lifetime supply of Doritos and chocolate.

*waits* *looks up in the sky*

What? You mean, saying you wish for something doesn't mean it's going to happen? Who knew?

Fargater
August 5th, 2006, 07:07 PM
Still getting the Farscape feeling with all the cutesy smirks and gestures between Claudia and Ben.
I disagree. I`ve been waiting for the directors or whoever to get up enough nerve to put them in the same frame facing the same way. They finally did it in this ep. No Farscape feeling here. Vala was kind of leaning all over Mitchell briefly in that one conference scene, but I figured that was Vala being Vala. No Daniel to pester so she went for the closest one. What cutesy smirks and gestures? CB was playing Vala. Aeryn Sun would never behave that way. BB was being Mitchell, not John. I didn`t see any smirks or gestures from him. Nice job from both, and I hope TPTB just keep writing them good Vala and Mitchell stuff so they can play THOSE people.

DeeKayP
August 5th, 2006, 07:28 PM
The guard who let Barrett into the room with his gun should be shot..


I think that the Ba'al who got the gun from Barrett did shoot him. I thought I heard gunfire. :(

JohnDuh
August 5th, 2006, 07:35 PM
Frankly they only have 2 Things in common 1 they both are female and 2 they have both had a gou'ald in there head. Sorry to say this but I don't think Sam thinks much of Vala.


Funny, the impression i got from this episode was that she has a growing respect for her.

JohnDuh
August 5th, 2006, 07:41 PM
Well, this has the feel of a bottleepisode, as in gotta save money and not use too many sets. Ok so there are baal clones, but these days people at home can make special effects on their home pcs to rival the movies (http://www.panicstruckpro.com/revelations/) so perhaps that isn't such a big deal.

If you don't like the characters its the usual fairly unimaginative by the numbers (and holes) script that one can belt out in a couple of days, but if you do like the characters - and I do - then its generally another helping of the feelgood dish. I enjoyed the company and look forward to more - but will it be enough for everbody else.

captain jake
August 5th, 2006, 07:45 PM
Funny, the impression i got from this episode was that she has a growing respect for her.

Well my only response to that is you are dead wrong but thats only my opinion. Have you seen the way she looks at vala? Sam has spent her entire life trying not to be restricted by the MAN'S WORLD. Vala Not only alows that restriction she looks for it. Now maybe she knows a few things but her whats the word....... looseness really bugs carter, again just my opinion.

Fargater
August 5th, 2006, 07:47 PM
Actually, I think that may be exactly the point, and that Vala DOES still have character traits of Qetesh - she's got both the memories and the learned behaviour somewhere hidden away, and seems to tap into them when she needs to. I don't see her as an inconsistent character, but as a very complex one. When she's focused on a particular objective, her brain is very effective and she becomes the 'strong' Vala we see in PU and here in Insiders. But she's like a gifted child - when she's bored, she's easily distracted and looking around for shiny things to play with, and when she's placed in a situation she can't control or manipulate, as in Morpheus, she becomes frustrated and brattish. I think both CB and the writers have got a pretty good handle on her voice - she's a consistently erratic wild card with conflicting internal motivations. CB once described Vala as having a 'zig-zag fruitcake brain'. I would find it unrealistic (and intensely boring) if Vala suddenly turned into a straightforward, predictable and reliable character. She's much more interesting this way, and entirely credible given what we know of her past.
Indeed.

JohnDuh
August 5th, 2006, 08:18 PM
If you want accuracy then how do you justify the Stargate by real world standards since there are no Stargates?



This is not a valid argument. You define a world with specific parameters, if its Superman you are asked to accept/or not, a man can fly - but if all other humans suddenly start to fly as well its nonsense - and the rebuttal can't be "but you accepted Superman could fly".
Here you accept the there is a stargate, but the military is still supposed to function like a real one or at least some people will shake their heads at it. "there are no stargates" is not a valid argument.

binkpmmc
August 5th, 2006, 08:25 PM
Nope. Just wondering how Carter, who is supposed to be this accomplished, experienced military vet, could make such a horrible decision, and then how Landry could pat her on the head and tell her that everything was all right.

How 'bout let's take a long hard look at TPKTS and how they are sacrificing the characters to move the plot (mitchell in many eps in S9), how TPKTS are writing more and more slip-shod lazy crapola with plot-holes you can drive a tank through and out-of-character moments that boggle the mind (first Daniel defending vala to Landry and then comparing Teal'c to vala - puhleeeaze. Teal'c as damsel in distress who needs rescuing by the big, shiny new hewo, etc.)

All I want to know is what the heck that have been smoking up there at bridge - this stuff they are churning out reeks worse than week old butter in 100 degree heat.

Fargater
August 5th, 2006, 08:26 PM
Okay if this is true why do we allow her on base never mind accepting her on SG-1? If we need her for intel then use her like Jacob or Bra'tac not an SGC member.
This has bothered me also but I`m seeing her as sort of a refugee. She`s got no one really, and seems to have made a lot of enemies, so she`s sort of like Teal`c was in the beginning. Where else is she going to go? That only gives her an excuse for being at the SGC though, it`s a BIG stretch to even think about including her in SG-1. I can see her coming on missions from time to time as a consultant or whatever, like Jacob and Bra`tac have done, but no way should she be included as a member. I like the character and all but the reasons to keep her right there have to be logical and shouldn`t include membership in SG-1.

majorsal
August 5th, 2006, 09:01 PM
another thing i liked about this episode... baal capturing sam. i *really* wanted more danger and, dare i say, violence. what makes baal so scary is that while he's preparing to snap your neck, he's grinning and saying some roguish remark. he's a totally different goauld.

i'd like baal to have another go with sam. and this time give it more menace. maybe give it some 'abyss' flavorings...






sally :sam:

RealmOfX
August 5th, 2006, 09:13 PM
I'm still too cranky about this episode to make much comment on it yet because when I do comment on an episode I like to present both (as I saw it) what was good about it and what was bad about it. Unfortunately, at the moment the BAD is so overiding I'm going to have to wait a few days.

I will however bring up a point. I was watching the ep as I prepared dinner so I wasn't paying 100% attention to it. A very sad comment because pre S9 NOTHING got between me and a new SG-1 episode. As I heard the comment "locater beacon" I thought "Great we get to see a new doctor, I wonder who it is?" because OBVIOUSLY you wouldn't let a prisoner keep a damn locator beacon now would you? (Hey anyone know when/if Lexa is coming back). And then things moved on and kept moving on and my next thought was "Bugger, they can't be that stupid can they?" and yes the rest of the ep proved just how stupid the entire base was. FCOL they're using the magical beam out fairy for the bad guys as well???

That whole ep was about lazy writing and it didn't need to be. You had all the elements of a really good episode and it could have been with a little effort. I posted the following in another thread just after seeing the ep, unfortunately it still holds true.


Oh great! Now they've turned all the characters into plot devices and get them to do stupid things that are against character to further the lame plot. It was bad enough having to deal with Hero, Plot Device Boy but now it would seem that they are going for the equal opportunity character decimation.

Another potentially good episode destroyed by lazy writing.

I'm too cranky at the moment to make further comment - I'm laying the blame where it deserves to be - in the writer's lazy and unprofessional writing laps. Wake up boys - we didn't all take stupid pills!!

<ETA> And in the showrunner's lap too - because they're letting it happen!!

BTW I'm glad some people liked the ep because as I said before it had all the elements of a really good ep, unfortunately I just see potential unrealised.

the fifth man
August 5th, 2006, 10:38 PM
After watching this episode a few times already, I've come to the realization that it was even better than I first thought. I really feel that this season is off to a strong start story-wise. I hope that trend continues, which I feel it will.:)

suse
August 5th, 2006, 11:01 PM
Ya know, my problem was that the behaviour of the whole of the SGC -- Landry -- was patently ridiculous from the word 'go'. Given how ridiculous and implausible everything leading up to that was, and once I wrapped my brain around McCullough's premises, I had no problem with Carter's actions.

Perhaps this statement will help me out of my rage. I'm not mad at Carter, she's a character who has been sorely abused for the last year, but I AM royally pissed at the writer and showrunner. Even the director couldn't do much without rewriting the ep.

I haven't been this pissed since Stronghold. In spite of my whinging about S9's disservice to the original SG-1 team I just k'vetshed by the later eps. Rage was over by then, except in small moments. And Camelot. That just got Pythoned. :S

And Ooober has a point. It's not like the weapon can be aimed at corporal beings. There's a reason for the Ancients to get involved. However nothing is stopping Baal from really scewing up the lives of those who live on those "formerly unknown to the Goa'uld" planets. Though as long as he doesn't think the locals are hiding something he's too busy on his quest-of-the-moment to do too much terrorizing - yet.


Oy. I abhore most of this ep.

Suse

Agent_Dark
August 5th, 2006, 11:13 PM
However nothing is stopping Baal from really scewing up the lives of those who live on those "formerly unknown to the Goa'uld" planets. Though as long as he doesn't think the locals are hiding something he's too busy on his quest-of-the-moment to do too much terrorizing - yet.
I dont think Ba'al is really in any position to do much planet conquering anyway. Not enough resources and all that.

Scyld
August 5th, 2006, 11:25 PM
The only thing I was wondering was this: why didn't Baal or one of his clones just leave his current host and take over Sam to get the code? Why bother with interrogating her at all?

GatetheWay
August 5th, 2006, 11:46 PM
Well, I thought this ep was okay. I was happy to see Barrett when he showed up. He has always been one of my favorite reoccuring characters. I felt bad for him when he asked Sam out and she turned him down.

It was dissapointing to see Barrett all the sudden turn into a hot head. The TPTB did do a good job of making you think it was because of Landry's constant stonewalling and Barrett being majorly pressured by his superiors to get results all the way until he had that little tantrum infront of Sam and asked her if this was about "us". Right there it was obvious something was wrong with him.

I really like Barrett as a character but it bothered me how they never showed his reaction to the fact he was responsible for unleashing Baal on the SGC. The closes we got was the cring worthy line in response to the fact he stupidly brought his gun in to the holding cell, "Oh, yeah I guess I shouldn't have done that." There was no regret, no guilt, just a very cocky and unBarrett attitude thinking he was going to walk out of there without any consequences.

Despite the bad handling of Barrett in this ep I hope this isn't the last we see of him and that we find out what happened in another ep. Caldwell post Goauld convade more character then this ep did for Barrett in the second half. I think there was potential to have a lot more angst for Sam.

Other things I didn't like: Vala directing troops when she's not an officer or even from Earth! Sam giving up info way too easily (I kept on thinking she had some trick up her sleeve but apparently she is that dumb). I will always hate the Baal clones. The SGC should have seen right through Baal's BS story because Baal has killed or sacrificed his clones many times in the past and they have never turned on him, so why all of the sudden would these clones care? Landry was being a bit of an ass to Barrett. Let the poor guy have a Baal, for crying out loud.

Okay things I liked: I really like Barrett even if he's character was a bit ruined in this ep. I loved the continuity from other eps long past thought TBTP piled on a little too much exposition dialogue for my liking. Even with the campy clone arc I still like Cliff. :o

Mitchell82
August 5th, 2006, 11:58 PM
This was an excellent episode and I' m glad most people enjoyed it. I'm sorry some of us are just reading way too much into this episode. The SGC didn't have much time to react, Lan dry did not order barret to go in their but he had the proper ID so the guard thought it was fine. Sam did the only thing she could in that situation, and Val didn't rerally bark orders at anyone but she has gained our trust and has the same responsibilites Teal'c does. Ok mabey not all the responsibilites but she definatly has proven herself. I had no complaints with this episode. I loved it!

fatblond
August 6th, 2006, 12:32 AM
In fact, had she had such access, and still gave up the code, she would be courts martialed. Deservedly so. There is absolutely no way the ending could have happened with Landry telling her she did the right thing.

Now, for creativity, what ever happened to fake data? What about fractured data. It's never all in one place. Searches are possible through data but not the whole database. And it would never never be yielded up by a real military officer. That was an insult to everyone who has given his/her life for country to protect information.




I unfortunately have to agree with this. Love the show, hate the writing for Sam on this episode. This is a Lt. COLONEL in the US Air Force that has faced these guys time and time again. And yet, despite that she gives up the information to Baal that could potentially give him access to the most powerful weapon that has ever been created. One that can kill Ancients/Ori, God like beings. One that could allow Baal to take over the galaxy. Are you serious? Carter would not do that even if faced with the prospect of a few lives given up as hostages. Bad writing. Very very bad writing.

Hunter86
August 6th, 2006, 12:39 AM
Well did anyone actually miss Daniel in this Ep? I hate to say it but not really judging from the comments on here :)
In general everyone seems to be happy that Vala got her chance to actually do something and everyone is pissed at Sam for folding so fast with the code thingy.
Coulda, woulda, shoulda, it's been written that way maybe for Baal to come back later or in the least for the great race for the weapon to start. The only thing I will say about the plot is that it's full of holes.
Sure we could all pick it to bits but it's not the worst I have seen nor the best I give it a 6 out of 10 mainly cause of Vala doing her thinggggg :)
Yeah I'm a great fan of CB she's a real hottie so sue me I'm male :) hehehe

ikcor
August 6th, 2006, 12:45 AM
This episode was only "ok" (5/10).

I don't like episodes where SG-1, and especially Sam, act dumb.

It was obvious that Baal had something else up his sleeve, but they took no precautions. And Sam should know better than to give into his demands to easily.

Also, the guard shouldn't have let the dude in without so much as a radio check. He apparently had standing orders not to allow anyone else in, but he did. Baal's plan should never have worked.

This episode suffered from bad writing.

Watt
August 6th, 2006, 12:51 AM
I unfortunately have to agree with this. Love the show, hate the writing for Sam on this episode. This is a Lt. COLONEL in the US Air Force that has faced these guys time and time again. And yet, despite that she gives up the information to Baal that could potentially give him access to the most powerful weapon that has ever been created. One that can kill Ancients/Ori, God like beings. One that could allow Baal to take over the galaxy. Are you serious? Carter would not do that even if faced with the prospect of a few lives given up as hostages. Bad writing. Very very bad writing.

I made my post before but it's worth repeating.
Her decision had galaxy wide consequenses and affecting billions of lives and she folded like a wet rag at the first mention of hostages. ( My first thought was why doesn't she break the stalemate and smash the laptop as that seemed to be the focus to access the data? but ahh well)
P*** Poor Writing (PPW) Indeed.

Jonzey
August 6th, 2006, 03:14 AM
Ok guys, here's the alternate ending you've all been so desperate for:

Baal: Enter the code!
Carter: No.
Baal: Bring in the hostages!!
Hostages enter.
Baal: Tell me the code!!
Carter does nothing.
Baal lifts his gun and shoots Agent Barrett in the head.
Carter still sits there and does nothing.
Baal shoots the hostages one by one, including the scientist working on a cure for cancer, and the guy with a wife and six children relying on him to bring in money for food- but hell, they're just extras, so who cares, right?
All the hostages lie dead on the floor.
One of the Baal's removes its own symbiote and puts it in Carter.
Goa'ulded Carter accesses the data.
Baals get the data and beam out, taking Carter with them.

So the Baals still escape with the addresses, more people are dead and the Baals have all the knowledge Carter has. Much better than that ''everyone surviving and only giving up a few gate addresses'' crap we had to put up with. What were they thinking?! :rolleyes:

StarGi
August 6th, 2006, 04:38 AM
Here's what will happen next: Ba'al will find the weapon, but doesn't know how to use it, so he'll contact SGC once again. With their combined strength and with help of the asgards, they'll beat the Ori.

As for the episode, an average one. Finally they gave Vala some chance to prove herself in off-world mission. And Ba'al, as always, very charming goa'uld. But what was that thing between him and Vala? How do they know each other?

Agent_Dark
August 6th, 2006, 04:46 AM
But what was that thing between him and Vala? How do they know each other?
Vala was host to a Goa'uld called Qetesh. Obviously Ba'al and Qetesh knew each other from the 'good old days'.

keshou
August 6th, 2006, 06:43 AM
I didn't have a particular problem with the fact she gave them the access codes - I think the way the scene played out established that she had bought time by slowing the download, and thus saved lives, and she did have good reason to believe Ba'al couldn't escape. So faced with a difficult choice, she took a sensible option (not necessarily the right one, but a reasonable one based on what she knew at the time). I think what kills it, and makes Sam's decision look worse than it is, is the fact that Landry completely exonerates her and says she did the right thing. Because the audience is not stupid and can make up it's own mind, and many people may think that it is not unambiguously clear that she did the right thing. The outcome is bad, and had Sam known then what she knows now, she would probably have acted differently. I think it would have helped sell Sam's decision if Landry's response had been more uncertain and less categorical.
I didn't have a huge problem either - mainly because the whole purpose of the episode was to give Ba'al the addresses so he can be a worthy foe as they race for Merlin's weapon. At least I assume that's where they're going with this development.

It's just that the writers had to make it so obvious and so lacking in drama and twists and turns. First Sam just kind of said "okay" as soon as Ba'al mentioned killing Barrett. I was sure as I watched that scene that Sam had something up her sleeve and was probably downloading some sort of bogus information. Or a virus in the data that would help them capture Ba'al down the road.

I was surprised at the end that Sam really had downloaded the actual file of gate addresses - and that was it! I just expected more than Landry patting Sam on the head and telling her she did the right thing.

Landry could have at least acknowledged that they all screwed up on this one. They sure didn't keep an eye on their Ba'als, did they? ;)


Actually, I think that may be exactly the point, and that Vala DOES still have character traits of Qetesh - she's got both the memories and the learned behaviour somewhere hidden away, and seems to tap into them when she needs to. I don't see her as an inconsistent character, but as a very complex one. When she's focused on a particular objective, her brain is very effective and she becomes the 'strong' Vala we see in PU and here in Insiders. But she's like a gifted child - when she's bored, she's easily distracted and looking around for shiny things to play with, and when she's placed in a situation she can't control or manipulate, as in Morpheus, she becomes frustrated and brattish. *snip*
Really perceptive thoughts on Vala. I can see what you're saying. I find the bratty/pigtail behavior a little annoying at times but otherwise I've enjoyed Vala so far in S10. I like the energy she brings to the group and her unpredictability. Of all the characters she has the most room for growth.

Mr.Clark
August 6th, 2006, 06:44 AM
Ok guys, here's the alternate ending you've all been so desperate for:

Baal: Enter the code!
Carter: No.
Baal: Bring in the hostages!!
Hostages enter.
Baal: Tell me the code!!
Carter does nothing.
Baal lifts his gun and shoots Agent Barrett in the head.
Carter still sits there and does nothing.
Baal shoots the hostages one by one, including the scientist working on a cure for cancer, and the guy with a wife and six children relying on him to bring in money for food- but hell, they're just extras, so who cares, right?
All the hostages lie dead on the floor.
One of the Baal's removes its own symbiote and puts it in Carter.
Goa'ulded Carter accesses the data.
Baals get the data and beam out, taking Carter with them.

So the Baals still escape with the addresses, more people are dead and the Baals have all the knowledge Carter has. Much better than that ''everyone surviving and only giving up a few gate addresses'' crap we had to put up with. What were they thinking?! :rolleyes:
THANK you. Someone who agrees with me. :D

kazzyk
August 6th, 2006, 07:02 AM
This ep was just another nail in the SG coffin.
So much potenial with not even an attempt to draw from it.
It is like they are making these eps from the writers rough draft instead of the final copy.

"Insiders" imo, was thrown together and the only thing S10 is doing is hurting the future of the actors!

BJX
August 6th, 2006, 07:57 AM
It was an okay episode, entertaining enough but like alot of other people said, it could've been so much more. The action sequences lacked danger and excitement. The episode was lacking of any real big twist and turns which an episode of this kind could've had in spades. The team interaction wasn't great and Daniel's absence was very noticeable. I thought Amanda Tapping's performance was poor and I wasn't happy with the scene between Mitchell and Landry, where Mitchell talked about the problem of chain-of-command within SG1. I just can't believe Landry would not only not acknowledge the situation but make a joke about something like that. This is the elite Air Force team where, as O'Neill made clear many times before, a clear chain of command is vital, especially in combat situations. I also hated the ending, god damned beaming people out, it's so crap. It'd be alright if it happened the odd time but every other episode it's happening. Any time anyone is in trouble, be it the good guys or the bad guys, they just get beamed out. I wish the writers would stop being so lazy by relying on such a bad storytelling device and come up with clever and interesting ways to resolve stories. They are ruining alot of episodes with this beaming stuff.

I really don't want to sound too negative about this episode because despite all the problems overall I did enjoy the episode but I was left feeling dissapointed by it as it had potential to be so much more. I enjoyed season 9 and I'm enjoying Season 10 alot but as I was watching this episode I couldn't help thinking had an episode like this been made in Season 4 or 5 it would probably have ended up as a truly superb ten out of ten episode. Episodes back then didn't have this lazy, stagnant feeling that this had and they certainly didn't have such silly endings.

I'd give it 2.5/5

Albion
August 6th, 2006, 08:16 AM
This is a television show after all. There are bound to be things that wouldn't jive in the RL.

Granted. But what used to make SG1 a cut above the usual SF show and which has proved so disappointing in S9 and now, again, in S10, is that once upon a time SG1 used to take time to make sure the miltary details were spot on. They even had an AF advisor to make them aware of any mistakes they made. And I really used to appreciate that attention to detail. It was one of the things I most enjoyed about the show and one of the things that I most deplore the passing of. :( That even though it was a SF show, it had a grounding in reality and you could believe in the SGC and its missions.

When I see episodes like this one, I can only conclude that they've had the poor AF guy locked in a closet since Avalon. Either that or they're passing the scripts past the tea boy instead. :S

So I'm afraid that old 'it's just a TV show' excuse just doesn't wash for me. Because, sadly, I remember a time when we had better. When we had a TV show that tried to get the details right. Not the one we have now which when the writers hit a plot glitch just warps the characterisations to fit rather than intelligently writes them out of the hole they've dug for themselves.

Albion :)

Zoser
August 6th, 2006, 08:35 AM
This episode was only "ok" (5/10).

I don't like episodes where SG-1, and especially Sam, act dumb.

It was obvious that Baal had something else up his sleeve, but they took no precautions. And Sam should know better than to give into his demands to easily.

Also, the guard shouldn't have let the dude in without so much as a radio check. He apparently had standing orders not to allow anyone else in, but he did. Baal's plan should never have worked.

This episode suffered from bad writing.
Yes it was obvious to us Ba'al had something up his sleeve.
I was hoping Sam had something up her sleeve - time will tell.
I also hope Barrett was one of those thing up Ba'al's sleeve.
As for everyone else, nothing up their sleeve and nothing in their heads (characters and ultimately the writers)
Actually these people are so unprepared and dumb I fear for Earth.
We're doomed, I tell you, doomed!!:cool:

Zoser
August 6th, 2006, 08:43 AM
It was an okay episode, entertaining enough but like alot of other people said, it could've been so much more. The action sequences lacked danger and excitement. The episode was lacking of any real big twist and turns which an episode of this kind could've had in spades. The team interaction wasn't great and Daniel's absence was very noticeable. I thought Amanda Tapping's performance was poor and I wasn't happy with the scene between Mitchell and Landry, where Mitchell talked about the problem of chain-of-command within SG1. I just can't believe Landry would not only not acknowledge the situation but make a joke about something like that. This is the elite Air Force team where, as O'Neill made clear many times before, a clear chain of command is vital, especially in combat situations. I also hated the ending, god damned beaming people out, it's so crap. It'd be alright if it happened the odd time but every other episode it's happening. Any time anyone is in trouble, be it the good guys or the bad guys, they just get beamed out. I wish the writers would stop being so lazy by relying on such a bad storytelling device and come up with clever and interesting ways to resolve stories. They are ruining alot of episodes with this beaming stuff.

I really don't want to sound too negative about this episode because despite all the problems overall I did enjoy the episode but I was left feeling dissapointed by it as it had potential to be so much more. I enjoyed season 9 and I'm enjoying Season 10 alot but as I was watching this episode I couldn't help thinking had an episode like this been made in Season 4 or 5 it would probably have ended up as a truly superb ten out of ten episode. Episodes back then didn't have this lazy, stagnant feeling that this had and they certainly didn't have such silly endings.

I'd give it 2.5/5
And that is the tragic part - this could have been a great episode.

BJX
August 6th, 2006, 08:45 AM
Granted. But what used to make SG1 a cut above the usual SF show and which has proved so disappointing in S9 and now, again, in S10, is that once upon a time SG1 used to take time to make sure the miltary details were spot on. They even had an AF advisor to make them aware of any mistakes they made. And I really used to appreciate that attention to detail. It was one of the things I most enjoyed about the show and one of the things that I most deplore the passing of. :( That even though it was a SF show, it had a grounding in reality and you could believe in the SGC and its missions.

When I see episodes like this one, I can only conclude that they've had the poor AF guy locked in a closet since Avalon. Either that or they're passing the scripts past the tea boy instead. :S

So I'm afraid that old 'it's just a TV show' excuse just doesn't wash for me. Because, sadly, I remember a time when we had better. When we had a TV show that tried to get the details right. Not the one we have now which when the writers hit a plot glitch just warps the characterisations to fit rather than intelligently writes them out of the hole they've dug for themselves.

Albion :)

Very, very well said, I couldn't agree with you more.

thothscribe81
August 6th, 2006, 09:20 AM
Okay, so this is exactly the kind of episode I was looking for this season, that I felt was lacking last season. Aside from the fact that they were still looking for the Ori weapon, it really didn't have much to do with the Ori - and we got a different bad-guy back, which is a nice change of pace.

I loved the storyline, bringing back the NID, and Ba'al of course. I thought it was interesting the entire episode.

Cameron finally gave us some closure on the whole "who is leading sg-1" thing. I think most fans have gotten the idea this season, that he's not leading and neither is Sam, its more of a team thing, but it was nice to hear him say it. I also liked Cameron alot more in this episode than I have in the first few episodes of the season. I dont know what it was during the first three eps, but he seemed... off... just not himself. He was this darker, moodier Cameron, and I wasn't really liking that. He was back to more the way he was in season 9 in this ep and I liked that.

Sam - Okay, You Go Girl!! I thought Sam was great in this episode. The writers are really writing her as a independent, strong, military colonel. I liked how she and Cameron "shared" the command when they were offworld - him taking control sometimes and she taking control others. When the Barrett was compromised and she heard the gunshots - I loved that scene. She took control right away. In hindsight it reminds me alot of how Jack would have reacted to the same situation. And I think that shows that she's growing into her role as Lt. Colonel nicely. She's not afraid to take charge. This whole episode was great for that. I even liked at the end that she really DID give Baal the codes. I think it made sense. Alot of people are saying that she never would have given him the codes - but I dont see how else she would have been able to work it. Ba'al would have killed the hostages, simple as that. She knew this. She stalled him, and if it had been a second or so longer, her plan would have worked. It shows that they are humans who make mistakes, It didnt' work out for her at the end. This is a nice change of pace, it was a suprise. And, it leaves things open for them to continue this storyline. Should be interesting.

Teal'c - was well... Teal'c, lol. He didn't really have alot to do in this episode speaking wise. But his presence was there and was nice.

Vala - Great episode for Vala. I enjoyed her interaction with Sam and I hope thats something they continue in the future. I liked how they were able to showcase how her background and history with the Goauld as well as her history as a fighter is helping her in her postion on the team. She thinks on her feet, and while she may come of goofy sometimes, she really does know what she's doing. That really shined in this episode. It was actually nice to get her away from Daniel for awhile and let her character stand on her own. I like her even more after tonight's episode. I've heard alot of talk about how she was able to use the hand signals and stuff right away. My guess is that ever since she was able become a member of the SGC she's been studying up. It would make sense if you look at how she prepared for her mental exam. She's quite the SGC fangirl, so I dont doubt she asked one of the team members to teach her, or just looked it up for herself. I also loved the scene where she was arm wrestling Teal'c, I almost fell off the couch laughing!

Lack of Daniel - I know MS was going to miss a few episodes this season, I think due to Lexa having the baby, and later on due to some family vacation I think. As much as I love Daniel and he's probably my favorite character, I didn't miss him as much as I thought I would in this episode. I think if he HAD been in the episode, he probably would have somewhat of the same role Teal'c did - lacking in speaking parts and just being "there". His absence also gave Vala a chance to interact with the other characters which was nice.

Overall episode - again, I just really enjoyed how they are going back to the way things were a few seasons ago. This was a great episode that furthered the larger "arch" but at the same time got away from the Ori and gave us a chance to see an old but interesting badguy. I loved it! They didn't overdue it on the NID stuff - it was just enough to make it interesting and leave you wanting to know whats going to happen to Barrett and the Ba'al's.

Loved all the "ball" references. They were funny. Especially when Cam was talking about the competition among the SG Teams to see who could bring in the most Baal's, lol.

fatblond
August 6th, 2006, 09:24 AM
Ok guys, here's the alternate ending you've all been so desperate for:

Baal: Enter the code!
Carter: No.
Baal: Bring in the hostages!!
Hostages enter.
Baal: Tell me the code!!
Carter does nothing.
Baal lifts his gun and shoots Agent Barrett in the head.
Carter still sits there and does nothing.
Baal shoots the hostages one by one, including the scientist working on a cure for cancer, and the guy with a wife and six children relying on him to bring in money for food- but hell, they're just extras, so who cares, right?
All the hostages lie dead on the floor.
One of the Baal's removes its own symbiote and puts it in Carter.
Goa'ulded Carter accesses the data.
Baals get the data and beam out, taking Carter with them.

So the Baals still escape with the addresses, more people are dead and the Baals have all the knowledge Carter has. Much better than that ''everyone surviving and only giving up a few gate addresses'' crap we had to put up with. What were they thinking?! :rolleyes:

you are making huge assumptions about what would have played out had she acted in line with her character. Probabilities as any number of things could have happened.

I am just focusing on what Carter would have done based on her rank, character history, and situational awareness. The character I have seen for nearly 200 episodes would not have folded under such a miniscule amount of pressure. She is not weak or incapable of grasping the gravity of a situation. Maybe the carter you have watched is different.

TheCaptain
August 6th, 2006, 09:29 AM
I have to say, these Ba'al episodes have come to grow on me, and this one had to be one of the better sorts so far :)

Very good group interaction, a nice plot twist in the end that caught me offguard alittle, but made me a bit shocked/embarassed I didn't see it heh, and overall just good flow and development into the Ba'al-centric eps that are to come. He's after the Merlin anti-Ori weapon just like we are, and it's a race to the superdevice. Weehaa, now who's gonna get there first, and what craziness is gonna happen along the way? ;)

8.5/10 for me

Capt

Admiral Mappalazarou
August 6th, 2006, 09:31 AM
I still think that this season of Atlantis has been better than season 10 of SG-1 so far, though both 'The Pegasus Project' and 'Insiders' have impressed me thus far.

L.A. Doyle
August 6th, 2006, 10:42 AM
Landry could have at least acknowledged that they all screwed up on this one. They sure didn't keep an eye on their Ba'als, did they? ;)


Yes, he could have and no, they sure didn't.

SMEAGOL2
August 6th, 2006, 11:00 AM
I thought it was an ok episode. But the one problem I had was that fact that Sam did give Ba'al the gate addresses. I always thought she was giving him fake info or something. But when she did not and gave the real thing I was thining Sam would never do that.

The chain of command was a given to me. I mean Cam is the "leader" of SG-1. Its its head if things go bad, his responsibilty.

Jonzey
August 6th, 2006, 01:31 PM
you are making huge assumptions about what would have played out had she acted in line with her character. Probabilities as any number of things could have happened.

I am just focusing on what Carter would have done based on her rank, character history, and situational awareness. The character I have seen for nearly 200 episodes would not have folded under such a miniscule amount of pressure. She is not weak or incapable of grasping the gravity of a situation. Maybe the carter you have watched is different.
I didn't know there was a Carter who would give up the lives of people she cared about when it may prove unnecessary.

The whole of Baal's plan was pivotal on them not figuring out his escape route. They didn't, so his plan suceeded. If they did, Baal would have the information, but he (they) would be recaptured before escaping.

Mitchell82
August 6th, 2006, 02:00 PM
Okay, so this is exactly the kind of episode I was looking for this season, that I felt was lacking last season. Aside from the fact that they were still looking for the Ori weapon, it really didn't have much to do with the Ori - and we got a different bad-guy back, which is a nice change of pace.

I loved the storyline, bringing back the NID, and Ba'al of course. I thought it was interesting the entire episode.

Cameron finally gave us some closure on the whole "who is leading sg-1" thing. I think most fans have gotten the idea this season, that he's not leading and neither is Sam, its more of a team thing, but it was nice to hear him say it. I also liked Cameron alot more in this episode than I have in the first few episodes of the season. I dont know what it was during the first three eps, but he seemed... off... just not himself. He was this darker, moodier Cameron, and I wasn't really liking that. He was back to more the way he was in season 9 in this ep and I liked that.

Sam - Okay, You Go Girl!! I thought Sam was great in this episode. The writers are really writing her as a independent, strong, military colonel. I liked how she and Cameron "shared" the command when they were offworld - him taking control sometimes and she taking control others. When the Barrett was compromised and she heard the gunshots - I loved that scene. She took control right away. In hindsight it reminds me alot of how Jack would have reacted to the same situation. And I think that shows that she's growing into her role as Lt. Colonel nicely. She's not afraid to take charge. This whole episode was great for that. I even liked at the end that she really DID give Baal the codes. I think it made sense. Alot of people are saying that she never would have given him the codes - but I dont see how else she would have been able to work it. Ba'al would have killed the hostages, simple as that. She knew this. She stalled him, and if it had been a second or so longer, her plan would have worked. It shows that they are humans who make mistakes, It didnt' work out for her at the end. This is a nice change of pace, it was a suprise. And, it leaves things open for them to continue this storyline. Should be interesting.

Teal'c - was well... Teal'c, lol. He didn't really have alot to do in this episode speaking wise. But his presence was there and was nice.

Vala - Great episode for Vala. I enjoyed her interaction with Sam and I hope thats something they continue in the future. I liked how they were able to showcase how her background and history with the Goauld as well as her history as a fighter is helping her in her postion on the team. She thinks on her feet, and while she may come of goofy sometimes, she really does know what she's doing. That really shined in this episode. It was actually nice to get her away from Daniel for awhile and let her character stand on her own. I like her even more after tonight's episode. I've heard alot of talk about how she was able to use the hand signals and stuff right away. My guess is that ever since she was able become a member of the SGC she's been studying up. It would make sense if you look at how she prepared for her mental exam. She's quite the SGC fangirl, so I dont doubt she asked one of the team members to teach her, or just looked it up for herself. I also loved the scene where she was arm wrestling Teal'c, I almost fell off the couch laughing!

Lack of Daniel - I know MS was going to miss a few episodes this season, I think due to Lexa having the baby, and later on due to some family vacation I think. As much as I love Daniel and he's probably my favorite character, I didn't miss him as much as I thought I would in this episode. I think if he HAD been in the episode, he probably would have somewhat of the same role Teal'c did - lacking in speaking parts and just being "there". His absence also gave Vala a chance to interact with the other characters which was nice.

Overall episode - again, I just really enjoyed how they are going back to the way things were a few seasons ago. This was a great episode that furthered the larger "arch" but at the same time got away from the Ori and gave us a chance to see an old but interesting badguy. I loved it! They didn't overdue it on the NID stuff - it was just enough to make it interesting and leave you wanting to know whats going to happen to Barrett and the Ba'al's.

Loved all the "ball" references. They were funny. Especially when Cam was talking about the competition among the SG Teams to see who could bring in the most Baal's, lol.
Thank you! Thank You! It seems like most people enjoyed it from the poll, but all the people that didn't are posting here! I agree 200% with everything you said. I enjoyed how they did everything with this episode and I didn't find anything unbeleiveable. The whole Baal escape thing caught everybody offgard. Barret had no permission and was overwhelmed, and then baal had plenty of time to free the clones. Carter does have acess to that mainframe so it's logical sh would know the acess code. Overall great episode 9/10.

captain jake
August 6th, 2006, 02:17 PM
I have to say, these Ba'al episodes have come to grow on me, and this one had to be one of the better sorts so far :)

Very good group interaction, a nice plot twist in the end that caught me offguard alittle, but made me a bit shocked/embarassed I didn't see it heh, and overall just good flow and development into the Ba'al-centric eps that are to come. He's after the Merlin anti-Ori weapon just like we are, and it's a race to the superdevice. Weehaa, now who's gonna get there first, and what craziness is gonna happen along the way? ;)

8.5/10 for me

Capt

I agree it is a very interesting story arc, as I said in a earlier post I gave the episode 8 1/2 as well.


I still think that this season of Atlantis has been better than season 10 of SG-1 so far, though both 'The Pegasus Project' and 'Insiders' have impressed me thus far.

I have to disagree with you on that one and I will tell you why. If it hadn't been for irresistible they would have been about even but that piece of crap through them down a few notches.

No mans land- 9/10
Flesh and blood- 9/10

Misbegotten- 8/10
Morpheus- 8.5/10

Irresistible- 6/10
The Pegasus project- 10/10

Sateda- 9/10
Insiders- 8.5/10

So basically

Atlantis-32/40
Sg-1- 36/40

There both really doing great but IMO sg-1 has been doing better.

nccjones
August 6th, 2006, 04:10 PM
I actually enjoyed the episode. I thought it was going to be Mitchell heavy and full of his heroism and it wasn't. I can take him in small doses, but he wasn't too bad here (still don't care for him though). Loved the conference scene in the beginning...Vala anxious about Daniel...that was cute...lol (yes, I saw that as a little shippy and liked it).

The scene with Mitchell and Landry! Awesome, they pretty much defined Mitchell's role...he's just part of the team that can't be controlled. It's true...how can he lead a team that has 8 years more experience than him. It was good to finally see that addressed.

I love Ba'al. I liked the little jokes and all the "balls". I actually liked Mitchell's "three strikes and two ba'al's...cute.

Vala was good in this episode. First, I loved how this episode had an earlier seasons feel to it with alkesh's, motherships, jaffa's and even a goaul'd. I kind of wish they would have thrown the old music into it. Vala proved handy at the ring site, though she would go a long way with the team if she just told her plan to them to start with, I think they would have went along with it and it still would have shown how useful she is. But I guess it was done in typical Vala fashion...lol. I do have a little qualm with her leading the Marines. Yes, she knows Ba'al and knows how to handle a zat and has been in battle's before, but I would think they would have had her tagging with Mitchell or Teal'c.

Sam. I really don't think she did anything wrong or was out of character in anyway. Since there was a jamming device on the locators, she knew that the Ba'als had no where to go and it was only a matter of time before the team and SGC personnel were able to contain the situation. She was just stalling for time. My only question was how did Ba'al figure out where the address's were located to get to the screen that had the password. I mean, it would have been more realistic if he just told Sam to get on the computer and get the codes. It would have been easier for her to fake it by going into another site and download whatever. I don't know...that whole scene was just a fill in for a future episode. It's probably going to come down to SG1 and Ba'al at the end of the season racing to get the weapon against the Ori...what a surprise.

Teal'c...great as usual.

Daniel....I can't believe I'm going to say this, but I actually didn't miss him this whole episode. He's my favorite character but he never had strong scene's anyway in foothold episodes. At the end I thought about why I didn't miss him and realized that he really couldn't have done anything. He would just have been wallpaper in this episode and I'd rather not see him physically and just think of him in his element in the library at Camelot. BTW...when did the Camelot leader ever let him back? I thought he kicked them out. I guess he just "beamed" in again and is hiding in the library. I hope he brought some brown bag lunches with him.

I only had one qualm...couldn't they have shown them going through the gate to the planet? One little scene? I mean, it is STARGATE! Overall, I thought it was a good episode for a Daniel-less one.

nccjones
August 6th, 2006, 04:54 PM
mitchell is acting more like an officer. i asked for this last season, so at least i can't complain when he actually starts acting like one. (still want him off MY show)

I have to agree with you on this. I don't want him on this show, but if he has to be, he's acting much better this season than last. I think they finally found his stride. I also love how they handled the leadership issue, though a year too late. He should have been introduced as a Major. But then how could they justify him being the lead in the show?



questions:

was barrett really brainwashed?

I was curious about that too. He didn't seem brainwashed to me at the end because he was in total control of his memories and really felt he didn't do anything wrong. I take issue with this because I always liked his character.


was what baal had downloaded really 'that' important? i mean, weren't there a LOT of planets on that list?

Thank you! That's my big question of the day too! They said there were thousands of planets and how many Ba'al clones? It would take a millenia to even search all those places.


were any of the baal's we saw the real one?

I thought the real one was the one at the end when he directed the Jaffa to go out of orbit or whatever...but you're right, that could have been any of the clones.

PG15
August 6th, 2006, 05:00 PM
Overall a pretty solid episode. :) The season so far hasn't had any bad episode, or any that even approached bad, which is awesome! :D

This episode went by a lot faster than I thought, and felt like build up, just as Cliff Simon said in his latest interview. Looks like the Ba'al's are truly planning something big.

Ok, some points:

This episode had the most team-ness since Mitch was introduced! The little moments between Mitch and Sam, and between Vala and...pretty much everybody! Very well done. Hopefully it continues like this.

Speaking of Vala, she was HAWT during that interrogation scene...hmmm...I think she did that on purpose. :D

I don't know how long the writers have been planning this, or how solid their idea of Ba'al's plan is, but they seem to have developed his whole plan way back a year ago! Seriously, when he was explaining everything at the beginning, all of a sudden everything made sense!

About that Dakara weapon, I thought it was destroyed? Hopefully they'll touch on that later on.

Barrett. I knew there was something up with him the moment he exploded in the cantine; I actually thought he was a Goa'uld, but brainwashing works just as well.

Loved the pletheora of Ball jokes, very consistant.

Speaking of consistant, I'm beginning to like Mitch more and more with each episode. Well done writers!

Score: 8/10

nccjones
August 6th, 2006, 05:35 PM
We have to face the fact that Carter only got to be LTC because Jack Oneil had the hots for her. Simple as, end of story. Oneils very first order of business was to promote her.

Someone who claims to have been in the military should know that a Colonel does not have the authority to advance a Major to Lt Col. The Air Force has promotion boards and all you have to do is google the timeline for officer ranks and you will see she fit into the timeliine properly. There is nothing in her background to indicate that she shouldn't have been promoted.

nccjones
August 6th, 2006, 05:44 PM
Actually, I think that may be exactly the point, and that Vala DOES still have character traits of Qetesh - she's got both the memories and the learned behaviour somewhere hidden away, and seems to tap into them when she needs to. I don't see her as an inconsistent character, but as a very complex one. When she's focused on a particular objective, her brain is very effective and she becomes the 'strong' Vala we see in PU and here in Insiders. But she's like a gifted child - when she's bored, she's easily distracted and looking around for shiny things to play with, and when she's placed in a situation she can't control or manipulate, as in Morpheus, she becomes frustrated and brattish. I think both CB and the writers have got a pretty good handle on her voice - she's a consistently erratic wild card with conflicting internal motivations. CB once described Vala as having a 'zig-zag fruitcake brain'. I would find it unrealistic (and intensely boring) if Vala suddenly turned into a straightforward, predictable and reliable character. She's much more interesting this way, and entirely credible given what we know of her past.

That's a very good characterization. Many (though I saw the definition above) say she is skitzo, but, it makes sense. When she plays the little girl characterization, I believe she is truly Vala, but the "Where's my Daniel" and the seducing of Ba'al are definately Qetesh traits. I like how she can tap into these emotions and use them to her advantage.

betjam
August 6th, 2006, 06:08 PM
This episode was lost on me. A good one for MS to miss.

They actually trusted Ba'al?

I did like how Vala got the rings to "work" and I enjoyed Teal'c's line when Ba'al said his clones were against him (can't remember exact line). But the whole trust Ba'al and then he turns on them thing...c'mon, they should have seen it coming.

Mitchell82
August 6th, 2006, 06:42 PM
Someone who claims to have been in the military should know that a Colonel does not have the authority to advance a Major to Lt Col. The Air Force has promotion boards and all you have to do is google the timeline for officer ranks and you will see she fit into the timeliine properly. There is nothing in her background to indicate that she shouldn't have been promoted.
Oneil was a General when he promoted Sam, not a Colonel. I happen to like the idea that everybody commands the team, they are literally a team in being that they rely on everybodys strengths and weeknesses. I love Vala's character and like was she has brought to the team even though she is not "officially" a member of SG-1.

Dani347
August 6th, 2006, 07:19 PM
That's a very good characterization. Many (though I saw the definition above) say she is skitzo, but, it makes sense. When she plays the little girl characterization, I believe she is truly Vala, but the "Where's my Daniel" and the seducing of Ba'al are definately Qetesh traits. I like how she can tap into these emotions and use them to her advantage.


I posted something similar in the anti-D/V thread, but I found her interaction with Daniel in Avalon to be much more childlike than seductive. To me, it was like someone running into a playmate they had met over the summer, and then someone who acted out when he didn't act like he also felt she was an old pal. Of course, since Vala is a who knows how old woman, and maybe traces of Qetesh play into it, her version of "you don't want to play with me so I'll be a pest" includes sexual innuendo.

sword1986
August 6th, 2006, 07:26 PM
i love this episode

DEM
August 6th, 2006, 07:39 PM
Oneil was a General when he promoted Sam, not a Colonel.Carter's selection for Lt Colonel occurred while O'Neill was still a Colonel.

Should anyone like to educate her- or himself on the USAF promotion process, please see:
http://www.military.com/MilitaryCareers/Content/0,14556,Promotions_AirForce_Officer,00.html
and
http://www.e-publishing.af.mil/pubfiles/af/36/afi36-2406/afi36-2406.pdf

Mitchell82
August 6th, 2006, 08:00 PM
Carter's selection for Lt Colonel occurred while O'Neill was still a Colonel.

Should anyone like to educate her- or himself on the USAF promotion process, please see:
http://www.military.com/MilitaryCareers/Content/0,14556,Promotions_AirForce_Officer,00.html
and
http://www.e-publishing.af.mil/pubfiles/af/36/afi36-2406/afi36-2406.pdf
Are you sure if I remeber correctly in was in New Order Part 2 after he had accepted the position and said"One of the reasons I have accepted this command is so I can do really cool things like this!" Then he promoted her.

L.A. Doyle
August 6th, 2006, 08:11 PM
Are you sure if I remeber correctly in was in New Order Part 2 after he had accepted the position and said"One of the reasons I have accepted this command is so I can do really cool things like this!" Then he promoted her.

I think the process would have started when he was still a colonel. He was, however, a General at the end of New Order.

Agent_Dark
August 6th, 2006, 08:18 PM
Are you sure if I remeber correctly in was in New Order Part 2 after he had accepted the position and said"One of the reasons I have accepted this command is so I can do really cool things like this!" Then he promoted her.
Presenting the promotion at a ceremony and the actual promotion process are two very different things.

majorsal
August 6th, 2006, 08:53 PM
I made my post before but it's worth repeating.
Her decision had galaxy wide consequenses and affecting billions of lives and she folded like a wet rag at the first mention of hostages. ( My first thought was why doesn't she break the stalemate and smash the laptop as that seemed to be the focus to access the data? but ahh well)
P*** Poor Writing (PPW) Indeed.

i'm not sure why some ppl are not realizing that sam was just stalling with baal. when someone makes a threat of killing, you basically believe them. when baal does, YOU SURE BELIEVE HIM because of what he did to jack (and the fact that he's a goauld). AND, she never believed baal would get out of the sgc.

i won't lie and say the writers couldn't have written this scene better (amongst a few other in this ep), but the facts are there to see. sam stopped baal from needlessly killing the hostages, knowing that whether he got the codes or not, he'd not get off the base. baal tricked them all.




sally :)

Watt
August 6th, 2006, 10:52 PM
I think the process would have started when he was still a colonel. He was, however, a General at the end of New Order.

That was my mistake there what I meant to say was as his very first order of business when he became General was to present carter with her promotion.
BUT:
If you check out the tape of that you can see the implication is that he promoted her because he liked her. The writers didn't go into the whole promotions board process just the end result which was that Oneil ended up promoting her and one can easily jump to the conclusion that carter got it because Oneil had the hots (aka liked) her.
I can see a lot of things in her background that would prevent her from getting promoted but also saving the planet about 7? fragging times would go a LONG way to ease this promotion through without much problem. :)

Watt
August 6th, 2006, 11:00 PM
i'm not sure why some ppl are not realizing that sam was just stalling with baal. when someone makes a threat of killing, you basically believe them. when baal does, YOU SURE BELIEVE HIM because of what he did to jack (and the fact that he's a goauld). AND, she never believed baal would get out of the sgc.

i won't lie and say the writers couldn't have written this scene better (amongst a few other in this ep), but the facts are there to see. sam stopped baal from needlessly killing the hostages, knowing that whether he got the codes or not, he'd not get off the base. baal tricked them all.




sally :)

Yup yup it's just bad writing is all.
From my POV if a enemy wants to be captured there's always something snakey about that and being a bit egotistical when I saw the program, probably like many others on the board, I pretty much saw the whole plot unfold before it happened, you could see right away what was going to happen and how baal was manipulating the sgc.
Personally 10 bullets directly applied would have saved the universe a bunch of grief. (kidding)

majorsal
August 6th, 2006, 11:01 PM
That was my mistake there what I meant to say was as his very first order of business when he became General was to present carter with her promotion.
BUT:
If you check out the tape of that you can see the implication is that he promoted her because he liked her. The writers didn't go into the whole promotions board process just the end result which was that Oneil ended up promoting her and one can easily jump to the conclusion that carter got it because Oneil had the hots (aka liked) her.
I can see a lot of things in her background that would prevent her from getting promoted but also saving the planet about 7? fragging times would go a LONG way to ease this promotion through without much problem. :)

:rolleyes:

any sam fan and/or jack fan would 'know' that jack didn't promote her, and didn't help out the process because he had the hots for her. *snort*






sally :sam:

DEM
August 6th, 2006, 11:03 PM
If you check out the tape of that you can see the implication is that he promoted her because he liked her.I don't (at least not in the way you mean it).

Let's try this again plainly: O'Neill did not promote Carter; the United States Air Force promoted Carter.

Myn McGeek, Third Sentinel
August 6th, 2006, 11:49 PM
An average episode, IMO. I'm not disappointed, 'tis to be expected. :)

Don't get me wrong, though. The average is pretty good. :D

6/10

majorsal
August 6th, 2006, 11:51 PM
out of the eps so far, i've liked (in order) -

1 - morpheus
2 - insiders
3 - flesh and blood
4 - pegasus project





sally :sam:

Watt
August 7th, 2006, 01:01 AM
I don't (at least not in the way you mean it).

Let's try this again plainly: O'Neill did not promote Carter; the United States Air Force promoted Carter.

Yes I do know that but I'm not looking at it from that way. I'm looking at it from the average john Q Public view who knows jack all about promotions etc... right? I'm trying to bring a different perspective to the forum.
The simple fact of the matter is that if you put on John Q Publics hat for a mo and look at the entire history of the J/S thing then you would assume that O'neill had something to do with her promotion and given their history and his comments about it at the time, with the looks and all those J/S intimate moments....... for John Q Public it's not a unreasonable assumption to assume that Oneill had ,at the least, some influence on her promotion.
We know he didn't promote her but if you look at it from a civvie point of view that Ep says something different. The Ep says she was promoted cause he liked her. This isn't reality bear that in mind.
Anyway OT for here so thats enough from me about it.

Lokii
August 7th, 2006, 05:30 AM
While this was a good episode in many ways, it also bothered me in a few.

Just how many clones are we going to see? While I like Baal, too much of a good thing is not good.

It really bothered me how quickly Sam caved into Baal. I thought she was tougher than that.

Something that also bothered me was how poor thr security appeared to be. Unless I missed something (Quite possible) why would a SF take an order from a civilian? Granted he is a member of the NID, but he was not in the chain of command. Also you would think there was procedures in place for this type of situation. The SF could have also been compromised, is so that would be very disturbing. I also don't understand how Sam was able to access the computer systems? Would her being captured cause her command codes to be disabled? I know this was all done for the sake of the story, but I get the feeling that SGC is losing control.

I did like Vala in this episode. I thought it was good for her character development.

dosed150
August 7th, 2006, 06:47 AM
How in the world could Sam giving Ba'al the information be the right thing to do, like Landry said?

i doubt it but maybe its part of an elaborate plot to find the weapon maybe the sgc have planted tracking devices on the baal's then when they find the weapon the sgc take it off them

Lokii
August 7th, 2006, 06:50 AM
i doubt it but maybe its part of an elaborate plot to find the weapon maybe the sgc have planted tracking devices on the baal's then when they find the weapon the sgc take it off them

I half expected Carter to say it was faked info or Landry tell her that they replaced what she was looking for with fake files

Esquin
August 7th, 2006, 07:21 AM
I'd jsut like to mention, and i'm sure soemone else has already. But jamming screens jam, not just a little, but completly. A bigger beacon doesn't get rid of that. In fact more beacons would probably make it harder to pick up the signals because you then have a whole bunch of scattering jammed signals.

bmicales
August 7th, 2006, 07:51 AM
I'd jsut like to mention, and i'm sure soemone else has already. But jamming screens jam, not just a little, but completly. A bigger beacon doesn't get rid of that. In fact more beacons would probably make it harder to pick up the signals because you then have a whole bunch of scattering jammed signals.

A jamming signal works if it is more powerful and on or close to the same frequency than the signal it is jamming. However, if a radio signal is more powerful (relative to the position of the receiver) than the jamming signal, it will get through.

Listen to the radio on some of the shortwave bands. You will hear all sort of stations, but it is usually the most powerful station that gets through (clearly) all the other jamming stations.

I am just wondering how powerful the SGC's jamming transport lockon signal was vs those in Baal. Plus did they shift the frequency of the jamming signal to match that of the beacons?

Bruce

MB.Eddie
August 7th, 2006, 07:53 AM
Average ep.

Missed Daniel, although he would have had no role in this ep anyway.

I didnt like how they brought the 1st to Baal's together...

It was easy to see that Bennent was going to do something, and i was surprised the guard didnt radio for authorisation before letting him in.

All in all, i guess it means that they still have to watch over their backs when fighting the Ori, as you never know what Baal is up too.

6/10

Zelda
August 7th, 2006, 08:02 AM
I suppose this might be considered a technical question: If all the Ba'als had an implanted device that allowed the SGC to track and capture them and the combined signal strength of several of the tracking devices was strong enough to override the SGC security system failsafe and allow the mulititude of Ba'als to escape by being beamed up together, why was this signal then not amplified enough for the SGC to track the departing Ba'al ship?

I know that Carter caving in to Ba'als demand regarding the list of gate addresses was a plot device to establish a race between Ba'al and the SGC to recover the ancient weapon device, I just wished it had been written better.

I enjoyed the scene of usually mild-mannered agent Barrett making a sharp 380 degree personality turn -- that was a surprising scene between him and Carter -- even if it was never explained. So, at what point was he corrupted? Was it before he came to the SGC to question Ba'al or during his time there?

Vala is a little too cute for me over all. I find the SGC, a military installation, a bit too trusting of the alien mother of the figurehead of the current lethal enemy a might unbelievable.

The lax security of the base and its top secret files and an alien aircraft crashing in Colorado seems like it would raise a few eyebrows.

The dialogue between Mitchell and Landry regarding who Mitchell is leading is a stupid interjection by the writers. I guess the writers forgot that the SGC is still a military installation. In the military, last time I looked, the officer in charge is responsible for the outcome of a mission.

bmicales
August 7th, 2006, 08:22 AM
I suppose this might be considered a technical question: If all the Ba'als had an implanted device that allowed the SGC to track and capture them and the combined signal strength of several of the tracking devices was strong enough to override the SGC security system failsafe and allow the mulititude of Ba'als to escape by being beamed up together, why was this signal then not amplified enough for the SGC to track the departing Ba'al ship?



Beacons were either turned off or somehow once inside the ship, the ship shielded any radio beacons unless they were transmitted via the ship's antenna.

OutThere
August 7th, 2006, 09:02 AM
Ba'al's plan:

Ba'al clone gives himself up to SGC, claims the to be the real Ba'al and the clones have turned on him, and that they all have vital information that would be bad for the Ori to get ahold of so it would be in the SGC's best interest to go round them up. So far I'm following along fine.

The clones all have tracking devices, making them easy to find. Seems like they're pretty easy to capture too. Ba'al wants enough clones inside the SGC to overcome the jamming. Okay. But the SGC might become suspicious at the ease they have catching Ba'als, or they might remove the tracking devices.

Barrett has been compromised. He is supposed to get a weapon to Ba'al, with which Ba'al will overpower the whole security force and free all the Ba'als. Was this honestly his plan? How could he reasonably expect it to actually work?

Was Ba'al's plan really to take hostages, and expect the SGC to hand over genuine classified documents on which the fate of galaxy rests in exchange for the hostages's lives? Or did he expect to be able to hack into the SGC's computers himself once there?

The chances of Ba'al's plan actually having worked looks incredibly improbable to me.

nccjones
August 7th, 2006, 09:24 AM
Oneil was a General when he promoted Sam, not a Colonel. I happen to like the idea that everybody commands the team, they are literally a team in being that they rely on everybodys strengths and weeknesses. I love Vala's character and like was she has brought to the team even though she is not "officially" a member of SG-1.

My mistake. I forgot about that. But still the same, he does not have the power to advance. I agree with you about the team. Everyone leads to their own stregnths.

BJX
August 7th, 2006, 09:34 AM
The chances of Ba'al's plan actually having worked looks incredibly improbable to me.

That's another thing that bothered me. The likelyhood of him escaping, and all his clones, was extremely minimal. He took such a huge risk to get a huge amount of gate addresses because he believed one of them was home to the weapon. Seems very unlikely. I know the Goauld are arrogant but that just plain stupid. However, maybe none of them were the real Baal, in which case he never put himself at risk.

MB.Eddie
August 7th, 2006, 09:48 AM
However, maybe none of them were the real Baal, in which case he never put himself at risk.

I think that was the real Baal piloting the ship when they escaped...

BJX
August 7th, 2006, 09:52 AM
I think that was the real Baal piloting the ship when they escaped...

That's what I assumed at first but who knows for sure.

Mandysg1
August 7th, 2006, 09:58 AM
My mistake. I forgot about that. But still the same, he does not have the power to advance. I agree with you about the team. Everyone leads to their own stregnths.

Not really a mistake, because he would still have been a Colonel when the paper work was going through for the promotion...and we how much Jack likes paperwork:S

And I thought that you had to go through a promotion board before the promotion actually goes through.:mckay:

So even if Jack put up for a promotion it had to be approved by other.