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GateWorld
August 5th, 2004, 09:38 PM
<DIV ALIGN=CENTER><TABLE WIDTH=450 BORDER=0 CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=7><TR><TD STYLE="border:0;"><DIV ALIGN=LEFT><FONT FACE="Arial" SIZE=2 COLOR="#000000"><A HREF="http://www.gateworld.net/atlantis/s1/108.shtml"><IMG SRC="http://www.gateworld.net/atlantis/graphics/108.jpg" WIDTH=160 HEIGHT=120 ALIGN=RIGHT HSPACE=10 VSPACE=2 BORDER=0 STYLE="border: 1px black solid" ALT="Visit the Episode Guide"></A><FONT SIZE=1 COLOR="#666666">DISCUSS ...</FONT>
<FONT SIZE=4 COLOR="#0066BF"><B>UNDERGROUND</B></FONT>
<FONT SIZE=1>EPISODE NUMBER - 108</FONT>
<IMG SRC="/images/clear.gif" WIDTH=1 HEIGHT=10 ALT="">
Efforts to open trade relations with a species called the Genii turn sour when the team discovers their new "allies" have ulterior motives.

<B><A HREF="http://www.gateworld.net/atlantis/s1/108.shtml">Visit the Episode Guide >></A></B></FONT></DIV></TD></TR></TABLE></DIV>

Skydiver
August 27th, 2004, 07:53 PM
so far, a very creepy episode, and it plays well into what i'm seeing as an ongoing theme of Atlantis

deception. many races they've ran into hide thier true nature to survive

this overwhelming, massive and almost fanatical fear of the wraith. These folks are willing to do about anything to stop them or survive them

i do have a bit of a quibble with shep wanting to trade C4. first of all, they can only have a finite amount and second of all, they want to start being the intergalactic arms dealers????

ooh, and we know that the picture for this thread is wrong. it'll be fixed as soon as it can

Drewbert
August 27th, 2004, 08:03 PM
Finally!
Ever since I was blown away by the first episode, I've been waiting to be impressed again. This episode did it.

Taonas
August 27th, 2004, 08:06 PM
This episode was awesome!

Plus it has Colm Meany in it, he's one of my favourite actors! (next to those of Stargate :P )

The ep has to do with the Genii and has Colm Meany.... It rhymes :D

Loki
August 27th, 2004, 08:09 PM
:eek: :eek: :eek: :eek: :eek: :eek:

Holy crap that was awesome! I mean the whole way through it was a good episode, but that ending was awesome. I assume since this is a episode discussion thread spoilers are implied but if not heres your space
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Having the jumpers de-cloak was so sweet and I swear every episode Shepard just keeps getting cooler and cooler. Guy reminds of a mix between Wyatt Earp and Doc Holiday. I have expected him to tell the jumpers to target the head guy to make sure he went down first if things went bad. I gotta say I'm really impressed by Stargate Alantis so far, so much so that I feel it's making SG1 look medicore. All in all I can not wait to watch it again at mid-night.

Larry The Chevron Guy
August 27th, 2004, 08:10 PM
Great episode!

I wasn't expecting them to infiltrate a Wraith ship like that. Quite a brave thing to do, and was a great twist.

And that Genii chick with the curly hair was HOT!

Major Fischer
August 27th, 2004, 08:12 PM
Not so much episode related as thread related...

... to the Mods, the information at the top of this thead is wrong, both the episode number and the picture.

Redwall
August 27th, 2004, 08:21 PM
McKay was great, again. And his comments on how the bomb works were all firmly grounded in reality AFAIK.

"I built one for my science fair."
"They let you do that?"
"It wasn't a working model..."

Larry The Chevron Guy
August 27th, 2004, 08:23 PM
And there was a Lemon joke again!! LOL

Praxus
August 27th, 2004, 08:27 PM
I agree with the Aliens. She was an idiot for trying to rescue them when it would undoubtably cause the Wraith to come and foil any chances they have of destroying the ship.

Very good episode:)

Rukkian
August 27th, 2004, 08:32 PM
I have like all the episodes, but now it really seems to be hitting its stride. I almost find myself waiting more to see atlantis than sg-1. This episode was awesome and I cant wait see if the genii show up again.

aeroe
August 27th, 2004, 08:34 PM
So we made mortal enemies with Bilbo Baggins and the techno-hobbits? Scary.
I was half expecting an Aschen type of baddie, but the hobbits aren't close to our level of technology in many regards. Especially considering our gold mine of technology we're based at.

I also loved the ending. I'm so tired of seeing SG1 being captured or ambushed. I'm glad these guys are smarter than that.

NightGloom
August 27th, 2004, 08:37 PM
So... I'm guessing someone cuts hair in Atlantis?

This was a great episode. So far I'm very impressed by Atlantis. Really liked some of Weir's more sarcastic comments. I have to rewatch the episode though, cause there were some stupid fireworks going off and I couldn't hear all of it so I'll post actual comments later.

major al
August 27th, 2004, 08:42 PM
I love the ending, otherwise the rest of the episode was once again deception due to the fact of the impending Wraith attack, and we get blamed for how we awaken them before there actual feeding time, but gah i love it anyway - I'm still waiting for the episode when Atlantis makes a connection back to Earth and just tell them a fraction off what they have there hands on and oooo, i can just imagine it :p

keshou
August 27th, 2004, 08:48 PM
Really good episode this week. Written by PDL, although I swear Brad Wright had his hand in this one.

*The Genii, seemingly simple people but right away we knew there was more to them. Friends, enemies, could go either way. Lots of nice layers and twists and turns to the interaction between the humans and the Genii.

* Good Shep/Weir discussions this week. I actually felt for Weir, having Shep keep coming back with all these "deals" he's made. Trading C4? Shep knows how to impress the new people.

*Mckay and the atomic bomb. Love McKay and loved all his scientific babbling in this episode. I think he knows he should keep him mouth shut but he just can't resist showing off. He and Shep make a pretty good banter team.

*Colm Meaney. Good role for him. He has such a friendly face but can be quite menacing.

* The wraith ship was really well done. I think the ships are scarier than the wraiths themselves. The idea of cocooning people for food was effectively creepy and although I felt for them I tend to think Teyla should have probably stayed with the others.

* Teyla was certainly more expressive this week and her hair is certainly better a little shorter. For the first time she really seemed to be asserting her knowledge and her place on the team. I wish I was more convinced by the actress but I did think they used the character well this week.

* Shep was mostly great although I did wonder why he didn't try and check in with Ford before venturing down into the bunker. He also needs to practice his negotiating skills although he did manage to have a few tricks up his sleeve. Nice save at the end getting the interface device. So 60 wraith ships. That's a lot.

* Glad they haven't forgotton the practical realities of survival. Food might have to be rationed huh? Guess the Athosians haven't had time to grow anything on the mainland.

Next week's preview looks interesting. Hammond!!!

NurseRatched
August 27th, 2004, 08:53 PM
Nicely done. Again, it entertained me more than SG-1; good plot, good pacing, good SFX.

Teyla's hair looks a LOT better with her new 'do. Overall, a stronger presence for her in this ep, as opposed to her "Should we not do <whatever>?" every few minutes.

We learn that McKay, "in order to get his fair share" before supplies run out, drinks a LOT of coffee daily, and also designed a model of an atomic bomb for his 6th grade science fair. :eek: Mr. Hewlett's rapid-fire prattling about U-235 versus U-238 and all that nuclear physics stuff was utterly convincing.

I'm becoming more convinced as the show develops that Mr. Francks, will all due respect, should stick to the straight-laced, just-the-facts stuff; he's not that strong an actor to carry off even light comic relief. The quick salute to SG-1's "Children of the Gods" (the moonshine reference) was overdone, and quite clumsy IMHO.

Is Weir going to let Sheppard negotiate anything ever again? Next time she should handle that part of the exchange, perhaps via an audio/video link through an open wormhole. And exactly how many outfits did she cram into her backpack? That itty-bitty aqua tank top seemed a little on the skimpy side for someone in authority.

Colm Meaney. Yeah. Always good.

To make the Wraith even more despicable - on-board pantries stocked with cocooned live people. (And leftovers. Ewwwww.) And ruh-roh: up to 60 hive ships? :eek:

Shep: Poor negotiator here (seems rationing should have been implemented from day one, knowing they had finite amounts of consumable goods), C-4 (also limited availablity) in exchange for food they may have been able to obtain from another Athosian trading ally, or wait for the Athosians to grow) didn't seem very smart. Smart: cloaked jumpers. Diplomatic skills aside, he still rocks.

What was done well: SPOILERS AHOY: Nicely sets up the "Storm/Eye" arc - the Genii aren't too happy with the Atlantis team, and Sora is out for sweet, sweet revenge against Teyla, who indirectly caused her fathers' death. Look at the upcoming episodes gallery - it's Sora and Teyla in that knife fight.

Jonas
August 27th, 2004, 08:57 PM
Really good episode. Atlantis seems to be hitting its stride. I agree that it was stupid for Teyla to try and rescue the cooned man. That scene reminded me of "Aliens" where the Marnies enter the hive and find that woman alive.

McKay had some great lines and i love all his techno babble. It was great to see Colm Meaney. (Chief Miles Edward O'Brien) I think that makes him the sixth "Star Trek" actor to appear on Stargate.

Good episode all around, the effects were great.

Skydiver
August 27th, 2004, 09:02 PM
Not so much episode related as thread related...

... to the Mods, the information at the top of this thead is wrong, both the episode number and the picture.


yep. we know. but that's something that darren has to change, i don't quite know how.

he'll take care of it as soon as he can.

Bobthespirit
August 27th, 2004, 09:02 PM
Okay, several problems I have with this episode.

1) Their secret hatch was *really badly* hidden.

2) When they find said secret hatch, they decide, rather to go back and radio what they're doing, to just push forward, and rather than *not* spying on their new friends, to spy on their new friends.

3) McKay "Oh yeah, I'll tell you exactly how to make an atomic bomb, just having met you and having no idea what you plan to do with it. I mean, sure, for all I know you could be planning to use it against innocent people later, but hey. While I'm at it, this is how you make nerve gas."

4) Teyla decides to tell them it's *their* fault the Wraith awoke, when she knew they were perfectly capable and perfectly willing to kill them on the spot without consequences, when she could have just said 'the wraith awoke'.

5) Weir...Weir..okay, this isn't specific to this episode, but GOD YOU ARE SO WOODEN. She's about three steps away from saying 'there's coffee in that nebula'. And when you have your heart to hearts with Shepherd, can you *pretend* you are disciplined military like people and not talk like kids in a treehouse?

So...we have Teyla about ten times as naive as Daniel with nobody balancing her out with hard military disipline like Jack, we have Shepherd who acts like he's on vacation, we have Ford who doesn't really say much of anything, and McKay who's never in his life heard of the word 'practical'.

We've seen some signs of hope with a few of the earlier episodes, but I'm really hoping Atlantis writing turns around quickly.

I do like all the characters in general except for the two that happen to be in charge, but up until those two ships decloaked I was feeling like I had no respect for the intelligence of any of the characters for the entire episode.

Universal Nexus
August 27th, 2004, 09:11 PM
So we made mortal enemies with Bilbo Baggins and the techno-hobbits? Scary.

That. Line. Rules. May I please use that in my signature? Pretty please? It's a lot better than my current one!

My opinions on this episode are VERY positive. I really enjoyed it, much more than most of the previous ones. It wasn't action-packed or anything, but I truly found it something I could watch without rolling my eyes. I loved McKay, and Sheppard in it as well. The new villain was cool, too, being really different. I really think there's potential for the Genii in the villainry department, too...

Teyla was okay in this episode, I guess. She still hasn't grown on me. I liked Weir a lot, though. "THEN we'll talk about nuclear weapons." Hee hee. I liked that line...

Summerfield
August 27th, 2004, 09:22 PM
My McKay love grows yet more.

I also liked the fact that, even with 50's technology, the Genii built a computer interface for a Wrath memory card. So seldom are other cutures in the 'Gate universe able to make use of the galaxy(s) the way Earth has.

I think it's kinda cool that Wraith ships seem biological. Neat departure for this universe.

I do think that the one Genii soldier, what was his name?, defeated his own purpose. Saving cocoon-man would have alerted the Wraith, so let's leave some bullets in him? It stops Teyla from exposing you, but... exposes you.

ShadowMaat
August 27th, 2004, 09:30 PM
Not super-actiony, but it makes up for it with suspense (much better done than in Suspicion) and tension and a nicely complex new enemy.

McKay was, as ever, brilliant. ;) Loved the atomic bomb convo with Ford. McKay's even smarter than I thought... and that's really saying something. :P Funny, though, the bomb thing reminded me of that ep of Joan of Arcadia where Luke and the angry chick build a model rail gun. Would have LOVED to see teenage Rodney showing off his model. The righteous indignation as he fails to win... which would probably be his primary complaint as he sits through the interrogation with government officials... lol

Interesting interior stuff on the hiveship. Reminds me a bit of Giger. Think the ships themselves are biomech? And how did McKay know he could cut through the wall/skin with a mere knife? Bad design flaw on the part of the wraith, there. ;)

Good stuff with the underground lair, too. Nice visual FX. Liked the waterfall in the distant bg. Good reaction shots for Shep and McKay, too.

Teyla was somewhat less annoying in this ep, but I still don't like her. Weir was actually kinda tolerable. In fact, I wished she'd come down harder on Shep and his team. Nice dig about Bates securing them some supplies. hehe

Bit that bugged me: Daddy-o kept telling Teyla that they couldn't rescue anyone because it would alert the wraith. Then he turns around and shoots the yelling guy. WTF did he think THAT was gonna do?? Sheesh.

vfxsoup
August 27th, 2004, 09:56 PM
Hey All,

I'm seeing some really great feedback on the vfx for this episode... which is great because this was one of the hardest so far, and one of my faves.

The Genii underground city was a massive project, existing entirely in 3D, Spin West put that together in remarkable time and with fantastic attention to detail. I would turn up there most evenings and we'd discuss how people would live there and how that would effect their environment... then, with that in mind, we would sculpt the Genii world until the early hours...

I remember one night, an artist there, Landon, posed the question of how they coped with all the water issues that you might get in a cavern that size... quickly adding that lakes and waterfalls might really help us believe in their world... we sat there a moment while this sank in, each one of us remembering how every cave we'd ever been in always had vast amounts of water everywhere... It was a genius moment, thanks Landon!

Even though it only appeared on the screen as Shepherd's POV for (I think) 3 seconds, and took us about 4 weeks to complete, it stands out as a real place that "makes sense" and that's down to the fantastic skill that the artists put into the shot.

Rainmaker created the Wraith hanger, awesome detail, hundreds of man hours in that one... great job guys! The Interface room was created by a young guy called Jose, and you can all expect amazing things from J and the whole Rainmaker team in a few episodes time... truely amazing... I didn't know you could do that with pixels!

Oh well, back to ... better not tell ya!

Thanks for watching!

Mark Breakspear
Visual Effects Supervisor
Atlantis

PS... If anyone has feedback on the VFX and wants to post it directly to me, you can post it at vfxsoup.com in the forum section...

aAnubiSs
August 27th, 2004, 10:50 PM
Loved the episode.
SGA has more of a B5 feeling then SG1 does, revealing a little bit about the Wraith each episode instead of revealing it all in two-parters.

Guess my guess of 100 Hive ships weren't that bad.


And the Wraith Hive ships interior looks awsome.

Now I just wanna find out how much damage the Ancient Drones can do to a Hive ship :)

Dragonlor
August 27th, 2004, 11:05 PM
Good episode. I liked everyone in it. Good story and it set up plenty to fuel many episodes in the future.

Funny how a simple trade for food turned into a nuclear arms discussion. :rolleyes:
Let's just go to every planet and teach them how to build nukes! Maybe if we ruin every world the Wraith will go away. :D

aAnubiSs
August 27th, 2004, 11:09 PM
Wonder if a regular US Nuclear Missile does any serious damage to a Wraith Hive if impacting with the hull.

Wonder if the Wraith Hives got shields... They probably do.

I can see the SGA->SG1 reunion..."Oh and Gen. O'Neill... We're gonna need a few hundred nukes"

Dragonlor
August 27th, 2004, 11:10 PM
We're gonna need a few hundred nukes
Good thing Earth is in no short supply of nukes.

aAnubiSs
August 27th, 2004, 11:12 PM
Indeed. Atleast now they'll be used for something usefull.

Shipperahoy
August 27th, 2004, 11:28 PM
I really enjoyed this episode. My love for McKay grows by leaps and bounds. Ford is really growing on me as well. I've gone from feeling like, o.k well he's there, to looking forward to seeing him in scenes. I too liked Weir in this episode. She seems less stiff and cold as time goes by. I adore Colm Meaney and he can pretty much do no wrong by me. The visual affects were great. I loved the underground waterfall. I agree with Shadow about being confused by "Daddy-O" shooting the poor schmuck in the Wraith ship after saying that he didn't want to alert the Wraith. Okaaaay. Shep I still love cuz he's cute and funny. What's not to love? Oh and did I mention that I love McKay?

aAnubiSs
August 27th, 2004, 11:30 PM
shipperahoy: Who's this McKay guy you're almost mentioning? :D

Wonder if I wouldn't rate Underground as the best episode of Atlantis yet... I think I will.

gange57
August 27th, 2004, 11:50 PM
I liked this episode a lot; IMO it is one of the best outside of "Rising." The Genii storyline was set up nicely. It will be interesting to seem what impact the Genii's will have in the future. It is always good to see Colm. :) I still don't understand Weir though. The Weir in Stargate SG-1 S7 was confident and strong in her convictions, especially regarding the Goa'uld. The Atlantis Weir lacks what made the S7 Weir a strong leader. Despite taking a stand against Shep a couple times, she easily caved in after a few words by the Major. I just don't understand her. BTW, what is up with Teyla dissing Ford to his face? "I thought you were a man?" That's not cool. :(

ToastBusters
August 27th, 2004, 11:57 PM
This ep was awesome. I loved it. Loved the wraith ship, loved the underground city, and especially loved the ships decloaking at the end.

vfxsoup, kudos to you and the people you work with. I still drool whenever I see an exterior shot of the city :)

kris
August 28th, 2004, 12:15 AM
Okay, several problems I have with this episode.

1) Their secret hatch was *really badly* hidden.
>>>>snip<<<<

So...we have Teyla about ten times as naive as Daniel with nobody balancing her out with hard military disipline like Jack, we have Shepherd who acts like he's on vacation, we have Ford who doesn't really say much of anything, and McKay who's never in his life heard of the word 'practical'.

We've seen some signs of hope with a few of the earlier episodes, but I'm really hoping Atlantis writing turns around quickly.>>>snip,sorry<<<


yes i'll have to agree with you - i don't fancy being in the minority but i wasn't too interested in tonight's episode. The plot device of team members simply spilling the beans without thinking is transparent and uninvolving. Very little action. And another stand off at the end, like in childhood's end. Amish like people. This episode more than any previous one reminded me of some of the less impressive eps of sg1

teyla: leave her at home. She's more a diplomat, not a real soldier. A little common sense goes a long way. Another tedious moment when I knew she was going to be the nice one.

good part: smart sfx. love the cloaking on the jumper

the whole goal seemed to be to get on to the wraith ship so we could creep out at those poor preserved people--and get the intel for another episode. I wish i could've like it more. it was humorous at least.

Mio
August 28th, 2004, 12:18 AM
This was a pretty good episode. We made an enemy, YEY! I'm surprised Sheppard didn't have one of the jumpers send up a GJOD to show them what they were up against, though.

tera'ngan
August 28th, 2004, 09:33 AM
Each week gets better with Atlantis - and they started out good to begin with! :D

I think one of my favorite aspects of this show is that they are separate from Earth/U.S. politics. I understand the necessity of it in SG-1, and it makes for good plot device, but it's refreshing to NOT have it in Atlantis. I think it really came out this week - ethically and morally they ultimately only answer to themselves. Are they going to trade nuclear technology for food? - it's entirely their decision to debate and make, not some administrator somewhere off-camera. For me that makes it less of a "military" show and more of a "sci-fi" show.

I also very much like the fact that they are setting up some long-term arcs right from the get-go. Stand-alones are nice, but getting two or three recurring storylines bouncing around make for some interesting plot development, IMHO.

And Mark - all I can say is WOW! Keep it up!

-tera'ngan

shockwave
August 28th, 2004, 09:37 AM
good episode, looking forward to the next Genii episode already

and next ep General Hammond and someone who was supposed to be dead

Liv
August 28th, 2004, 09:49 AM
Oh, Underground how much did I love thee, let me count the ways. This has got to be my new favorite episode of Atlantis, so far. :D This, to me, felt like a real Stargate episode.

There were so many things I loved I don't even know where to start... But here we go, anyway.


Things that made me go ROFL:

- "I wasn't hitting on your daughter."

- Sheppard/McKay banter. I could just listen to them talk forever and ever.

- "You know, if people could just learn to keep their secret underground hatches looked." ~ McKay

- "We say, 'What giant underground bunker?!" ~Again, McKay


Things that made me go Hmmm, that's surprising. I *like* it!

- Teyla. What a turnaround. For the first time I felt like she was a three-dimensional character. Lovely haircut, as well.

- The twist with the Genii people. And Colm Meaney is great.


And some other stuff I enjoyed:

- Nice use of creepy and "slithering" music inside the Wraith ship.

- The fact that they (Sheppards team and the Genii) kept going back and forth on the whole 'trusting each other' issue. You could never really be sure which way they were gonna turn. As proven by the scene at the end, where the two puddle jumpers came out of hiding.

^

I guess the only thing (that I can think of, right now anyway) that I didn't like so much, were the scenes where Sheppard needed to return to Atlantis to clear things with Weir, in between negotiations. That slowed things down a bit, but I suppose it was necessary.

^

I also agreed and symphatized with Teyla in that situation with the guy in the pod. As much as I understand what was at stake, I don't think I could have walked away from that guys pleas, either.

UltraMarioMan
August 28th, 2004, 10:00 AM
Really good episode. Atlantis seems to be hitting its stride. I agree that it was stupid for Teyla to try and rescue the cooned man. That scene reminded me of "Aliens" where the Marnies enter the hive and find that woman alive.
It wasn't stupid I'd have started disliking Teyla if she didn't try to save the guy. I was also getting an Alien/Aliens vibe from it. The approach to the Hive Ship felt like a mix between finding the alien ship in Alien and the Dropship flying to the colony in Aliens.

Livi2Jack
August 28th, 2004, 10:09 AM
Why isn't there a protocol to involve Weir when negotiations get serious?

HIj'Qa
August 28th, 2004, 10:10 AM
Good episode, story-wise. We learn more about life in Wraith Universe, we makes friends and enemies, we visit worlds and ships, we get tech and intel. Plot lines are pulled along from earlier eps and set up for future ones.

Character interaction is maintained: Rodney blabbing. Shep holding Rodney's leash! Sergeant Bates scores over Shep!

My only gripe is Sheppard the Pilot as Sheppard the Ground Team Leader. The Air Force pilots I know are mad for flying. Sitting around yammering with administrators and or being diplomatic is just not their thing. Sheppard looks a bit bored at meetings, and his unorthodox negotiations piss off Weir. But I would like him to voice a little characterization of his feelings. He just seems to be being The Leader because O'Neill told him to go and then Sumner was killed. Perhaps something is coming up. I hope so. We've forgotten the whole 'He's not a good soldier in Sumner's opinion because of his going against orders thing' in Rising. Lt. Ford doesn't have a prob with him, which could be a puppy dog Ford thing. Is Bates just a jerk, or does he have anti-Shep issues? Perhaps the future will tell, but often things set up in a pilot episode go by the wayside when the writeres have to churn out scripts every week.

We see and hear Dr. Peter Grodin. :D
No Beckett :( But we had plenty last week, he was off this week, mourning Perna. :(

And, Colm, really, you're tired already of casting calls for low-budget movies made in deary Eire. You want the safety and security of a weekly Sci Fi television series again, don't ya? Don't ya? Pleeeaseeeeeee

kadosho
August 28th, 2004, 10:17 AM
Quite a leveled ep, and a bit of a fun ride.
+====
Ex note- to VfXSoup - Mark
Gotta add a note, awesome job to the entire crew!

Dr. Weir's Hair Gel
August 28th, 2004, 10:17 AM
I am glad Dr. Weir loaned me to Teyla. As the 1 personal item that Dr. Weir was allowed to bring with her, it is my duty to combat helmet hair on all the crew's heads.

shockwave
August 28th, 2004, 10:28 AM
I thought her personal item were all her different clothes she's been wearing :eek:

Chirp
August 28th, 2004, 10:52 AM
Boy is there alot I would like to say, but I hate typing.
First of all this is the first season, we all know,(the veterans of SG-1 that is), you don't always put, the hole meal on the table. Seppard puts to much trust in Teyla words, hes got to get a little bit more Jack in him. You can't always trust your new friends. This show is like a chess board, you have to think at lest 3 or 4 steps ahead before you move.
As for Seppard trading C-4 for food, agin looks are decieving, what do you expect from the Amish, surely not nucular wepons, let alone 3 barral shot gun.
Atlantis needs food now, they might find it in Atlantis some secret food replacater, but give them time.

Major Fischer
August 28th, 2004, 10:56 AM
Why isn't there a protocol to involve Weir when negotiations get serious?

My bet is that it certainly is now! :D

I actually think this might have been a good excuse for them to let Weir leave Atlantis more often. And may have been one of the seeds deliberately planted in this episode.

Major Fischer
August 28th, 2004, 11:51 AM
Not overly attached to this episode, but don't dislike it either. Loved the McKay/Sheppard interaction. Ford's just still sort of there to me, and Teyla is starting to annoy me less.

At least I thought it was kind of funny to see her wanting to strangle Sheppard during the first few acts.

My favorite line, "I generally stop short of offering nuclear weapons."

Taonas
August 28th, 2004, 12:25 PM
This whole time I've been mispronoucing the Genii.... I thought it was pronouced like those things that grant wishes x.x

Anyway... This episode was great! I can't wait for "The Storm" and "The Eye"... More Genii action!

Hohenzollern
August 28th, 2004, 12:30 PM
So we made mortal enemies with Bilbo Baggins and the techno-hobbits? Scary.
I was half expecting an Aschen type of baddie, but the hobbits aren't close to our level of technology in many regards. Especially considering our gold mine of technology we're based at.

While the Atlantis tech offsets the threat greatly...remember McKay gave them a big jump on the progress of their atomic bomb. They seem xenophic and pissed off enough to use it with little qualm.

Hohenzollern
August 28th, 2004, 12:37 PM
Not so much episode related as thread related...

... to the Mods, the information at the top of this thead is wrong, both the episode number and the picture.

Correct on the number. But on the picture, isnt that a still of when the doomed "wraith food" guy lunged out of the wraith "life force suck o tron" screaming "help me, help me"; creating the plot device of their discovery and subsquent nerving "close" escape?

It does appear in the gateworld pics for the episode 108.

jbrd79
August 28th, 2004, 12:46 PM
HI i loved this episode and i think SGA is great but i was woundering if anyone else notice? spoiler space ..............





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/
/

before shepard and the others left teyla and the father of the blond (that genni fella who got shot by the wraith)
it looked to me as if he gave Colm Meaney. (Chief Miles Edward O'Brien)
the old Wraith memory stick thing,then while in the puddle jumper Colm Meaney switched it for the new one so the one the SGA team has is the old one that the genni already looked at so the genni do have the new memory stick thing

did any one else see that?

Hohenzollern
August 28th, 2004, 12:55 PM
Not super-actiony, but it makes up for it with suspense (much better done than in Suspicion) and tension and a nicely complex new enemy. .
...and ties up or brings foward nicely the issue of how many wraith ships there are...and what they may be doing. I liked that a lot.


McKay was, as ever, brilliant. ;) Loved the atomic bomb convo with Ford. McKay's even smarter than I thought... and that's really saying something. :P Would have LOVED to see teenage Rodney showing off his model. The righteous indignation as he fails to win... which would probably be his primary complaint as he sits through the interrogation with government officials... lol.
...no doubt. I love Mckay's character. he just keeps getting better and better.


Interesting interior stuff on the hiveship. Reminds me a bit of Giger. Think the ships themselves are biomech? And how did McKay know he could cut through the wall/skin with a mere knife? Bad design flaw on the part of the wraith, there. ;)
..you would think cutting into the living tissue would have further alerted the wraith... and perhaps it did. I would think all the ships are somewhat biomech...the darts perhaps less so than the motherships. Definitely very "Giger-y". Also reminded me of Lovecraft!


Bit that bugged me: Daddy-o kept telling Teyla that they couldn't rescue anyone because it would alert the wraith. Then he turns around and shoots the yelling guy. WTF did he think THAT was gonna do?? Sheesh.
...what was WITH that? I know they needed a plot device to have the obligatory tense, narrow escape...but cutting into the wall would have sufficed to alert the wraith...but I would not have liked to see Mckay cast as a buffoon.

Hohenzollern
August 28th, 2004, 01:10 PM
I also liked the fact that, even with 50's technology, the Genii built a computer interface for a Wrath memory card. So seldom are other cutures in the 'Gate universe able to make use of the galaxy(s) the way Earth has.

Did you find that McKay seemed VERY incredelous, or ALMOST disbelieving that they were able to accomplish this? I wished there were time for McKay to expand on that, or why he reacted that way. Could the Genii have had help? If so from whom? That hand communicator in the beginning looked even more advanced then their other technology.
Just thinking aloud...but it strikes me the Genii might stop at nothing or not stop at enlisting anyTHING to accomplish their aims...to include collaboration w/ the wraith for a time. I wonder if they had a "Steve" previously from the crashed dart...and maybe got info out of him?

Could the daddy-o Genii, have REALLY been that stupid to alert the wraith that way by shooting up the guy now food? It is like he was trying to prevent something other than the rescue of the food guy. Would rescuing him have revealed some kind of collusion between the wraith and the genii?
Again...just thinking aloud. Seemed more of an intricate episode than on the surface of the plot. Looking foward to see if any of it is borne out in future episodes.

ShadowMaat
August 28th, 2004, 01:21 PM
Could the daddy-o Genii, have REALLY been that stupid to alert the wraith that way by shooting up the guy now food? It is like he was trying to prevent something other than the rescue of the food guy. Would rescuing him have revealed some kind of collusion between the wraith and the genii?
Nah. Interesting idea, but my guess is that Daddy-o was already twitchy when Teyla tried to interfere (maybe he had reason to think he'd know someone in there) and the confrontation with Teyla coupled with the Snack screaming for help (screaming being another way of alerting the wraith) caused a temporary snap in his head. He shot the Snack to make him shut up so that HE could have some time to think. Unfortunately, he should have thought a bit faster. ;)





Also reminded me of Lovecraft!
Maybe a bit. Although Rising actually seemed more Cthulhoid to me. The City Beneath the Sea, rising again? Kept visualizing R'lyeh. :D

Hohenzollern
August 28th, 2004, 01:25 PM
The shot of Atlantis near the end of the episode...at night. I thought the sky looked more like the sky one might see in a barred, or barred spiral galaxy like our own.

I thought Pegasus was a globular cluster or smaller galaxy (on the show)?
In reality, it is thought to be a "dwarf globular" cluster.
http://antwrp.gsfc.nasa.gov/apod/ap990122.html

No way to be sure w/o being there <obviously>...but I just thought the starfield view from Atlantis at night is more of a "strip" of stars across the sky ala our own Milky Way or similiar formed galaxy.

Then again, they may be in a nebula strand or something, of which there would be plenty even in a "small" galaxy as Pegasus.

Just an idle thought. Not a "beef" I do like the overall effect and appearance.

Grumpyguy
August 28th, 2004, 01:37 PM
My two cents here:

The bad--
1. Food shortage: Can anyone else picture the Ancients in overalls and driving a tractor to raise food? Didn't think so :) So instead of visiting other planets, shouldn't the team be exploring the city, looking for the Ancient's food "replicator"? It really would be nice to see a little more of the city than we have seen so far.

2. Finding the entrance to the underground city was simply silly. The Genii go to all the trouble of playing "Little House on the Prairie" and they leave the gate to their super-secret city unguarded? Plus, if the Genii were trying to keep the base secret, wouldn't they have tried to hide the radioactivity just a bit better so the Wraith couldn't find trace the technology just like McKay did?

The Genii must have the most incompetent military organization in the Pegasus Galaxy with a nuclear bomb in the making.

3. As pointed out, "We can't save him, because it will alert the Wraith." "So just let me shoot him with my loud machine gun."

4. Now the Genii are (see the most incompetent military...above) dead meat. Colm leaves one of his soldiers behind. Since the Wraith read minds, they will know exactly where he came from. Shouldn't he have at least went back and shot the guy so the Wraith couldn't gain any intelligence?

The Good---
1. The curly haired babe :D
2. McKay's character is quickly becoming very likeable. Sheppard wasn't bad. Teyla at least got a better hair-do. Maybe they explored the city enough to find a beauty salon.
3. We see the scope of the Wraith threat with at least over 20 ships.


Questions--
Even from seeing the FX of the Wraith ship, does anybody have sense of how big they are? A football field, and aircraft carrier, ten football fields?

Bryan

Elwe Singollo
August 28th, 2004, 02:17 PM
Ok, although maybe Tyrus was right about not helping the dude in that little stasis area to make sure the Wraith knew they wouldn't be there, but don't you think it was kind of late already, he was already yelling, and and blah blah blah, and even stupider, the dude shot him. Ok maybe i'm looking at the scene the wrong way to some people, but i got a little more angry when the Genii Backstabbed them once again, very annoying, but i guess lying was the important thing, since if Sheppard wasn't absolutely truthful, they probably would have been dead or something.

I may sound a little evil, but Tyrus deserved to be left behind, and being supposingly dead.

Ugly Pig
August 28th, 2004, 02:37 PM
Previously, on 'Piggy's Useless Opinion': And now, once again, to wait for next week... For which the previews look very promising. And now, the conclusion:


PIGGY'S USELESS OPINION
of 'Underground'

I'll say this right now: This episode just might be my favorite since the pilot. Of course, this is just my immediate reaction, and I don't know how well it will hold up on repeat viewing (and there hasn't been a Stargate episode to date which I haven't watched at least twice - except tonight's, of course) but right now I fell pretty dang good about this one.

And what's not to like? For the first time in I don't know how long, I was not only enjoying the show. I was literally glued to the screen. Well - maybe not literally, but I really was at the edge of my seat. There was tension. And plenty of it. Building throughout the whole episode, from the standard meet-and-greet was becoming... well, a tense meet-and-greet, to the mission into the Wraith ship. Speaking of which - those Wraith sure like to hibernate surrounded by thunder and lightning, huh?

Some Sheppard/McKay banter... is this going to become part of the character dynamics? In any case, fun to see McKay in his element. But he sure seemed to be hung up on that science fair...

Suspense, humor and a surprise twist at the end in which our guys get the upper hand (I totally didn't see that one coming! I was fully expecting the Genii to get away with keeping all their stash, especially after the guy said he'd let them walk away with their lives!). That, and the introduction of a new, appearantly recurring villain. On top of that, what McKay was tracking with his funky device didn't turn out to be a ZPM they couldn't use for some reason. Oh yeah. This ep shall have the


http://photobucket.com/albums/v413/uglypig/thumbsup.gif

ShadowMaat
August 28th, 2004, 02:38 PM
Re: memory sticks- I knew Meany's character was messing around with something but I wasn't clear on what he was doing.

Did they actually say anything about blowing up the ship? Or did they not get a chance to plant the charges or what? I must've missed that bit. Not even any reaction shots and "Oh, look at that explosion! It's... indescribable!" ;)

Mio
August 28th, 2004, 03:03 PM
The original plan was for the Wraith not to even know that they downloaded the information.

tera'ngan
August 28th, 2004, 03:13 PM
Did they actually say anything about blowing up the ship? Or did they not get a chance to plant the charges or what? I must've missed that bit.

It was strictly a re-con mission. They were only there to download info from the main computer. That was why Tyrus made such a big deal about not saving anyone so the Wraith wouldn't know they were there. Of course, we all know how that ended up . . . :rolleyes:

-tera'ngan

Ugly Pig
August 28th, 2004, 03:47 PM
I forgot to mention this earlier, but this ep had new establishing shots of Atlantis. Yay! Now if only someone would go and shoot some new stuff at Cheyenne Mountain...

ShadowMaat
August 28th, 2004, 03:50 PM
I forgot to mention this earlier, but this ep had new establishing shots of Atlantis. Yay! Now if only someone would go and shoot some new stuff at Cheyenne Mountain...
Establishing new shots of Cheyenne Mountain is tricky 'cause of national security. New shots of Atlantis pose no such problems. :P

Ugly Pig
August 28th, 2004, 03:54 PM
Establishing new shots of Cheyenne Mountain is tricky 'cause of national security.
Well, they were able to do it once... :p

ShadowMaat
August 28th, 2004, 04:00 PM
Well, they were able to do it once... :p
Yeah, and the Air Force FREAKED OUT, MAN! ;) hehehe. Sorry. Couldn't resist.

Gary Jones is a terrible influence. ;)

Mio
August 28th, 2004, 04:02 PM
Yeah, and the Air Force FREAKED OUT, MAN! ;) hehehe. Sorry. Couldn't resist.

Gary Jones is a terrible influence. ;)
Yes, being able to just click the 'render' button does have a few advantages....

Major Fischer
August 28th, 2004, 04:11 PM
As has been pointed out, filming establishing shots of NORAD's headquarters in the current national security enviroment isn't likely. They arrested a kid around here for taking photographs of a nuclear plant from a distence for a school photography project.

Does remind me though of 1963's Seven Days in May (which has to be one of my favorite movies of all time), where they needed a shot of one of the characters entering the Pentagon. The DoD doesn't let film crews shot at that building (not than, not now, not likely ever), so to get it they had the film cameras set up in a station wagen and had Burt Lancaster dressed in a Marine uniform walk on up and into the building.

Thus the guards saluting were real marines thinking they were saluting a real colonel.

jbrd79
August 28th, 2004, 04:59 PM
not sure if this was addressed i noticed it and not sure if anyone else did

before shepard and the others left teyla and the father of the blond (that genni fella who got shot by the wraith)
it looked to me as if he gave Colm Meaney. (Chief Miles Edward O'Brien)
the old Wraith memory stick thing,then while in the puddle jumper Colm Meaney switched it for the new one so the one the SGA team has is the old one that the genni already looked at so the genni do have the new memory stick thing

did any one else see that?

jayeffaar
August 28th, 2004, 06:23 PM
not sure if this was addressed i noticed it and not sure if anyone else did

before shepard and the others left teyla and the father of the blond (that genni fella who got shot by the wraith)
it looked to me as if he gave Colm Meaney. (Chief Miles Edward O'Brien)
the old Wraith memory stick thing,then while in the puddle jumper Colm Meaney switched it for the new one so the one the SGA team has is the old one that the genni already looked at so the genni do have the new memory stick thing

did any one else see that?

There was no new memory stick. They brought the one they had with them so they could download the data from the wraith ship's computer into it. There was only one memory stick.

BTW, the wraith should have a chat with Sony engineers about making those memory sticks more compact...

AsgardCarnage
August 28th, 2004, 06:41 PM
great ep, it still brings up the question how much stuff can u bring in 38minutes. obviusly food is the first limiting resource. i'm sure the acients would have something to make food. we need to see more of the city.

as to why didn't they hide the enterance better, the head genii guy said "our scientists said the radiation isn't harmfull at these levels" and i tend to belive mckay, so while they may be on the right track to makeing a A-bomb they jumped a few steps it seems like they missed the background work. they probebly couldn't detect the radiation so they thought the wraith could either.

they are going to fast for safty they just want a-bombs and quick they dont care about the other advantages that come with it

ShadowMaat
August 28th, 2004, 06:45 PM
They didn't think they HAD to hide the entrance better. The barn was not on the proscribed route to the village, it was far off the path. I assume that a Genii usually accompanies new visitors until they're familiar enough with the route to make their own way to/from town. If Shep hadn't gotten them lost, Rodney would never have had to dig out his Everything Detector and picked up the radiation "leakage" which led them to the hatch.

AlphaBlu
August 28th, 2004, 07:17 PM
Best. Episode. Of. Atlantis. Since. The. Pilot.

Hell this episode was better than most of Season 7 (again, not that that'd be hard, nearly half of Season 7 was just recycled Season 3 episodes).

I'm glad the writers are taking risks with Atlantis. The writers on SG1 spent most of the first season doing one-off stories. There weren't many over-riding arcs other than the Goa'uld and Pops' iminent attack, but most of the episodes were one-offs, mostly there to explain the universal constants, showcase each of the characters, and establish the mythos of the show. It wasn't until Season 2 where they really started introducing the running themes, such as the Tok'ra, the Asgard, more Goa'uld System Lords and so on.

Here, right away, not even half way through Season 1, we've already set up our next enemy beyond the Wraith, and we've established what a clear threat the Wraith present (60 ships, maybe more). Now there is a chance, with the upcomming Atlantis 2-Parter (The Storm & The Eye), that they could kill off this story line too quickly, but I'm hoping the Jeni will become a permanant fixture as running bad guys, especially with Colm Meany involved.

In case you didn't notice the none-too-subtle directing, Teyla is set up for a major fight with Sora.

Anyway, back to this episode. Everything about it was great. Every character got to do something, with only Ford dissapearing into the background occasionally. Weir was consistant, Sheppard was great, Teyla had lots to do and McKay... well, McKay was McKay. You can't fault McKay.

Also, this episode has the best one-liner yet from, yes, McKay:

"It's atomic readings in Amish-Land; your call!"

I think that tops "Listen, kiddies, everything you believe to be true is wrong and trust us because oh we've been here almost an hour!" from two weeks ago. I mean, McKay had a lot of good lines in that particular episode ("Of course it's different - veal is delicious" and "That's not quiet, that's talking!"), but the one from this episode wins out over those.

McKay was an absolute riot this week. If anyone's wondering why, when faced with guns and execution, McKay starts helping them it's because McKay never passes up an opportunity to show people how smart he is ("Did I mention that I know almost everything about almost everything?"). He'll help anyone if he can show them just how much smarter he is than everyone around him.

McKay rocks, and I still praise the writers for dumping the Ingram character and deciding to go with McKay instead.

Other than that it's hard to describe just how much I loved this episode. I REALLY hope that they don't destroy the plotline they've set up in The Storm & The Eye.

Anyway, I'll wrap this up. This gets 5.5/5. How is that possible? Simple, it's a 5/5 episode any episode that McKay is in (even if it's just the opening titles) gets +.5 points, so, again, 5.5/5 for that one.
BYE

DarkQuee1
August 28th, 2004, 07:23 PM
'Fraid this was only OK for me again. Was there any real doubt that these 'allies" would prove unreliable? That the plan was useless? That someone else would get annoyed with us for waking the Wraith early?


Liked Sheppard and Weir. Ford is still a nonentity. Teyla was OK, but they haven't done enough with her.

McKay was a major annoyance. In SG-1, he was arrogant, sarcastic and really impressed with his own smarts (though we saw cracks in that in Redemption). Which made him minorly annoying. Here, he was downright stupid. Which made him majorly annoying. Does gate travel cause diarrhea of the mouth??I could not believe some of the things that said, apparently without thinking at all.

Liked the appearance of the two puddle jumpers at the end.

I still can't figure out what the Wraith are supposed to be. On an individual level, they are so powerful that defeating them seems impossible: they don't seem to age, when they feed they are practically unkillable and so on. But their tech doesn't seem that incredible: the puddle jumper could take the ships out, even an Earth ground weapon could take out a ship, we walk right onto a hive ship--no problems. I still can't see why they ever got close enough to the Ancients to "feed" on them; the Ancients tech seems way superior, and they should have been able to get onto everyone of the hive ships and take them out.

It seems very inconsistent at this point.

J.

HIj'Qa
August 28th, 2004, 11:04 PM
My two cents here:

The bad--
1. Food shortage: Can anyone else picture the Ancients in overalls and driving a tractor to raise food? Didn't think so :) So instead of visiting other planets, shouldn't the team be exploring the city, looking for the Ancient's food "replicator"? It really would be nice to see a little more of the city than we have seen so far.


They should find little colored cubes, yellow, Thor's favorite, laying around and taste them so we can have a group spewing scene :D

And now for something completely different:
How did Sheppard and McKay get lost in the first place? A scene must have been cut for time. Everyone else is suffering through a Harvest Festival, but they're out getting lost to find the secret entrence to the Underground. Hmmm.
Sheppard and McKay, the anti-Kirk and Spock

ToastBusters
August 29th, 2004, 12:09 AM
Slightly off topic, but what sg-1 ep was McKay in?

Mio
August 29th, 2004, 06:30 AM
Slightly off topic, but what sg-1 ep was McKay in?
Redemption and 48 Hours.

Mio
August 29th, 2004, 06:31 AM
Best. Episode. Of. Atlantis. Since. The. Pilot.
I agree, It was an excellent ep.



"It's atomic readings in Amish-Land; your call!"
I nearly fell off my couch laughing when he said that.

NightGloom
August 29th, 2004, 11:00 AM
The scary thing is, right before McKay made the comment about "Amish Land" I made comments saying that it looked like a planet full of Amish people. Wow, my natural sarcasm is turning into McKay sarcasm...

derrickh
August 29th, 2004, 11:04 AM
Is it just me or did the team's morals flip 180 degrees from last week? How is what the Genii planned of doing any different from what was going to happen in 'Poisoning the Well'? The SGA went all nutzo and cut off all relations with one group who planned on killing the Wraith, but along comes another group who want to kill the Wraith and all of a sudden they're all gung-ho. "Hey, lets help these guys build a nuke but we'll turn our backs on the guys with the anti-wraith injection." How does that make sense?

And before you say something about the high mortality rate, well, that was from the first batch. Who knows, they might be able to fix it in the next couple of weeks, but the SGA will never know cuz they're off helping the shady, lying, sneaky planet build a few nuclear bombs. Which of course could never have any civilian causualties...

And if Teyla is gonna tag along, then maybe she should learn when not to go telling everyone exactly who woke up the bad guys. You could almost see that Shepard wanted to put her on the first puddle jumper back the farmville. And what is with her trying to save the feeder mouse in the Wraith ship? She couldn't figure out that dragging that guy back would slow them down and alert all the bad guys? And guess what Teyla, you signed on to a plan that would NUKE all of these ships. And unless you planned on hoping the Wraith would let you pack all of these people into busses I doubt they would survive the blast. Plus...PLUS she was all for dragging back the feeder mouse but when her partner got stunned, she bolted. She didn't call for help and try to hold off the single Wraith. She didn't go get help and say, 'Hey, we got a man who needs help. Remember when I saved Shepard after he got shot? We should do the same for this new ally'. Nope. She waited until she got back to the ship and said 'oh by the way, your son in law got shot and I left him. Time to go.' Teyla just peeves me because it seems she abandoned her people. Teal'c did basically the same thing but some how when he did it, it was kinda honorable. Teyla just seems like she wanted to move out of the trailer park and into the comfy suburbs of Atlantis... and that aint cool.

Back to the show. Colm Meany was cool. In fact, all of the Genii were great. Sneaky, but great. Hopefully they'll show up again.

D

kris
August 29th, 2004, 12:20 PM
Is it just me or did the team's morals flip 180 degrees from last week? How is what the Genii planned of doing any different from what was going to happen in 'Poisoning the Well'? The SGA went all nutzo and cut off all relations with one group who planned on killing the Wraith, but along comes another group who want to kill the Wraith and all of a sudden they're all gung-ho. "Hey, lets help these guys build a nuke but we'll turn our backs on the guys with the anti-wraith injection." How does that make sense?


And guess what Teyla, you signed on to a plan that would NUKE all of these ships. And unless you planned on hoping the Wraith would let you pack all of these people into busses I doubt they would survive the blast. Plus...PLUS she was all for dragging back the feeder mouse but when her partner got stunned, she bolted.


D

Amen. After watching this episode again and reading your post, I have more reasons to be bugged by the illogical parts. Yes, Mckay is funny, I adore him, yes I was glad to see Grodin at the end. I wish he'd come out more, in fact I think they should trade Teyla for Grodin on the team.

How does it make sense that they didn't want to call attention to themselves by using the wraith killing drug in PtW but would by blowing them up? Isolated incident? Blowing up Wraith is only a minor threat to them? or, they wouldn't know who to attack? Thoughts anyone? Happy to debate or arm wrestle.

Excali5033
August 29th, 2004, 12:34 PM
It seems very inconsistent at this point.

Maybe they haven't had their coffee yet. :D

Grumpyguy
August 29th, 2004, 04:08 PM
'

I still can't figure out what the Wraith are supposed to be. On an individual level, they are so powerful that defeating them seems impossible: they don't seem to age, when they feed they are practically unkillable and so on. But their tech doesn't seem that incredible: the puddle jumper could take the ships out, even an Earth ground weapon could take out a ship, we walk right onto a hive ship--no problems. I still can't see why they ever got close enough to the Ancients to "feed" on them; the Ancients tech seems way superior, and they should have been able to get onto everyone of the hive ships and take them out.

It seems very inconsistent at this point.

J.


Don't get me wrong, I park my but every Friday night to watch SG-1 and Atlantis (just imagine if Sci-fi hadn't canceled Farscape, we'd have a triple header! ). Anyway, so far, from what I've seen, the Wraith shouldn't have been that much of a threat to the Ancients as they are presented now. Here's my supposition on how they challenged the Ancients:

1. The Ancients were small in number. 50,000 or less accompanied Atlantis to the Pegasus Galaxy.

2. The Ancients set out to seed the Pegagus Galaxy with life. Thus they teraformed thousands of planets and created human life on these planets. So in otherwords, these aren't Ancient colonies, they are humans created by the Ancients. So the Ancients allowed the humans to develop from hunter-gathers.

3. When the Ancients stumbled upon and awoke the Wraith, they really had no allies, because even the oldest of the worlds they had created would have been no further advanced, technologically, say than the Romans or the Greeks, circa 100 A.D.

4. Each Wraith ship holds over 90,000 hibernating, hungry, mean life-suckers. There are over 150 Wraith ships.

5. As a result, the Ancients were not overwhelmed by Wraith technology, but by sheer numbers. Even an advanced people like the Ancients, without great numbers of soldiers, fighters, and missles, couldn't have held off a foe like the Wraith forever.

Anyway, at some point, the writers will have to go with something like what I wrote above, or they will have to reveal more of the Wraith's "awesome" powers. But, they need to do one or the other, and soon to make the Wraith seem like a fearsome enemy.

DJFavorite
August 29th, 2004, 09:09 PM
I liked this episode. I'm finding that each episode continues to have some good character growth.

I'm liking Sheppard, Teyla and McKay the best. Judgement is still out on Ford and Weir. Teyla reminds me of early Daniel. She is naive and trusting. Always looking for the good in others to the point of sometimes being blind to the bad. I see much growth potential in her character.
Sheppard and McKay, what can I say. They are both great characters and I'm looking forward to some good 'difference of opinion' bantering between them.

vfxsoup
August 29th, 2004, 10:11 PM
Yes, being able to just click the 'render' button does have a few advantages....

Ummm... just being able to click the render button... if only it was that easy... To give you an idea, each frame of the city consists of about 8.2 million pixels, broken down into about 15 layers, z depths, mattes, rgbs etc... which means that for each city establishing shot you get, someone somewhere has baby-sat 124,416,000 pixels, which also means the average city shot can take about 4 solid days of artist-watched render time, 24/7... the "render button" is unfortunately a mythic beauty I am personally seeking! Enjoy those images... our blood is dried into them!

Mark Breakspear
Visual Effects Supervisor
Atlantis

Mio
August 29th, 2004, 10:28 PM
Ummm... just being able to click the render button... if only it was that easy... To give you an idea, each frame of the city consists of about 8.2 million pixels, broken down into about 15 layers, z depths, mattes, rgbs etc... which means that for each city establishing shot you get, someone somewhere has baby-sat 124,416,000 pixels, which also means the average city shot can take about 4 solid days of artist-watched render time, 24/7... the "render button" is unfortunately a mythic beauty I am personally seeking! Enjoy those images... our blood is dried into them!

Mark Breakspear
Visual Effects Supervisor
Atlantis
Yes, I know. (I'm a pathetic lowly amateur with Maya) <g> Still, It's probably easier than getting a shot of the real Cheyenne mountain.

AmyE
August 29th, 2004, 10:51 PM
Yes, the episodes are definately getting better, but agree that the Wraith seem to easy to overcome.

waz
August 30th, 2004, 04:01 AM
Yes, 4-5 wraith seem easily overcome, maybe 8-10, but just say 50,00 wraith a mothership and at least 60 ships, so....
50,000
x 60
----------
3,000,000

At least 60 ships with 3 million troops who have massive numbers of darts available to them doesn't sound easy.

AlphaBlu
August 30th, 2004, 04:01 AM
The thing about the anti-Wraith drug was that they had to wait for the Wraith to come and eat them. Once the Wraith find out about it, they'll just kill anyone who has the immunity.

With the Genii they were going to nuke all the ships while they were sleeping. It's a slightly more direct approach, and the Wraith don't know it's coming. It'd also be simultaneous, so the Wraith wouldn't have much time to react, if any at all.

Of course, that was when all the Wraith were sleeping. They didn't know about all the other ships, nor did they know that we woke them up.

BYE

prion
August 30th, 2004, 06:26 AM
[QUOTE=Grumpyguy]4. Each Wraith ship holds over 90,000 hibernating, hungry, mean life-suckers. There are over 150 Wraith ships.

{/QUOTE]

Where did you get those numbers from? In "Underground," They said 60 ships, and that's a guess.

Major Fischer
August 30th, 2004, 07:13 AM
Enjoy those images... our blood is dried into them!


Oh, but we do enjoy those images a lot. :D I do at least. We were simply pointing out that given the current climate in the country, getting more establishing shots of Cheyenne Mountain likely would require selling ones soul... much less one's blood ;)

vfxsoup
August 30th, 2004, 09:00 AM
Oh, but we do enjoy those images a lot. :D I do at least. We were simply pointing out that given the current climate in the country, getting more establishing shots of Cheyenne Mountain likely would require selling ones soul... much less one's blood ;)

I work in television... what is this "soul" thing you mention? ;)

Mark Breakspear
Visual Effects Supervisor
Atlantis

Major Fischer
August 30th, 2004, 09:06 AM
I work in television... what is this "soul" thing you mention? ;)


Darn it! And last week someone asked me to explain curling! What do I look like, answer woman? :p :D Seriously, I'm not usually one to be big on effects, but I'm generally really enjoying the work being done with Atlantis. And enjoying your comments on the episodes as they come out...

watcher652
August 30th, 2004, 09:49 AM
Ummm... just being able to click the render button... if only it was that easy... To give you an idea, each frame of the city consists of about 8.2 million pixels, broken down into about 15 layers, z depths, mattes, rgbs etc... which means that for each city establishing shot you get, someone somewhere has baby-sat 124,416,000 pixels, which also means the average city shot can take about 4 solid days of artist-watched render time, 24/7... the "render button" is unfortunately a mythic beauty I am personally seeking! Enjoy those images... our blood is dried into them!

Mark Breakspear
Visual Effects Supervisor
Atlantis
The only problem with the special effects is that I can't fully appreciate them on my 20 inch TV. Yes, I know I'm living in the dark ages, but what can I say? If my television screen was any larger, I would really have no life, not that I have much of one now.

What hit me were the waterfalls in the center of the screen. Everything else in the cavern was rather dark and it went by so fast, it was all I could do to say "wow, that's a waterfall! what else.. oh, damn!" I kinda felt like McKay, with his mouth agape. BTW, that scene looking over their shoulders at the cavern would make a great photo.

I sure the folks with larger screens really appreciate your work. Especially those with full wall screens (green with envy).

Taonas
August 30th, 2004, 10:32 AM
The only problem with the special effects is that I can't fully appreciate them on my 20 inch TV. Yes, I know I'm living in the dark ages, but what can I say? If my television screen was any larger, I would really have no life, not that I have much of one now.

What hit me were the waterfalls in the center of the screen. Everything else in the cavern was rather dark and it went by so fast, it was all I could do to say "wow, that's a waterfall! what else.. oh, damn!" I kinda felt like McKay, with his mouth agape. BTW, that scene looking over their shoulders at the cavern would make a great photo.

I sure the folks with larger screens really appreciate your work. Especially those with full wall screens (green with envy).

I downloaded the ep from the net, so in my case I could barely make out what the cavern looked like.

So if there's anyone with a clear picture of it, could you send it to me?

Larry
August 30th, 2004, 10:35 AM
Best episode since the pilot imo. Has Chief O'Brien had any roles as a good guy other than Star Trek TNG/DS9?

One thing I don't like, and it seems like it's in every episode there is this debate between Weir and Sheppard.

Sheppard: We need to do this
Weir: No

Sheppard: Awe, c'mon, pretty please?
Weir: NO!

Sheppard: With Milk and Sugar on it?
Weir: Ohhhh, OK.

Kinda reminds me of a kid and his mother at the store with the kid begging for a treat of some kind. Small complaint in an otherwise very good episode.

waz
August 30th, 2004, 10:56 AM
I downloaded the ep from the net, so in my case I could barely make out what the cavern looked like.

So if there's anyone with a clear picture of it, could you send it to me?
Email me on: [email protected] I tryed uploading the image here but the file is 81k but the upload limit is 39k.

Grumpyguy
August 30th, 2004, 12:49 PM
[QUOTE=Grumpyguy]4. Each Wraith ship holds over 90,000 hibernating, hungry, mean life-suckers. There are over 150 Wraith ships.

{/QUOTE]

Where did you get those numbers from? In "Underground," They said 60 ships, and that's a guess.

I didn't get them from anywhere :) . Just conjecture/advise to the producers :D on how to make the Wraith a little more fearsome. Right now it seems like the Little Sisters of the Poor, armed with M-16s, could hold their own against the Wraith.

kryon22
August 30th, 2004, 10:06 PM
[QUOTE=derrickh]Is it just me or did the team's morals flip 180 degrees from last week? How is what the Genii planned of doing any different from what was going to happen in 'Poisoning the Well'? The SGA went all nutzo and cut off all relations with one group who planned on killing the Wraith, but along comes another group who want to kill the Wraith and all of a sudden they're all gung-ho. "Hey, lets help these guys build a nuke but we'll turn our backs on the guys with the anti-wraith injection." How does that make sense?

It is different because you're talking about the relative scales of destruction involved in the combat maneouvres. Extrapolate the level of destruction capable in one kg of nuclear ordnance (and the corresponding number of warheads you're able to construct from it) versus one kg of biological agent. That one kg of innoculated toxin, could easily decimate an entire population of Wraith specimens (for lack of a better term). And having said that, when one's in the frame of reference to engineer a weapon for OFFENSIVE capabilities, you would look at modifying the toxin into a bioweapon capable of efficient delivery and uptake by the enemy...maximum exposure and possibly infectious, ie, clone the necessary agent's DNA into a modified highly infectious airborne virus that is specific for Wraith cells. Once you infect one hive colony, you literally wipe that colony out in a matter of hours/days. And one could reverse engineer this agent to be slow acting in spread, meaning, you could highly increase the possibility of transmitting the agent to other colony ships. Think opening a vial of virulent smallpox in a centre with massive international (interplanetary in this case) traffic. Get the picture?

And before you say something about the high mortality rate, well, that was from the first batch. Who knows, they might be able to fix it in the next couple of weeks, but the SGA will never know cuz they're off helping the shady, lying, sneaky planet build a few nuclear bombs. Which of course could never have any civilian causualties...

Even with the most sophisticated massive supercomputing mainframes a lot of advanced biopharmaceuticals have to this day, the process of engineering a drug or protein or biologically viable agent to improve its characteristics and then testing it out on a population (or suitable animal model) takes many years of rigorous molecular design/testing as well as a lot of experimental application and study. There are also quite a number of host factors to study as well as taking into context the genetic heterogeneity of a population to which it is applied.

And it's not entirely true that a nuclear explosion would not have any civilian casualties. Ignoring the subsequent devestation of radiation fallout, what happens should the hive ship be located at a distance fairly near the stargate. We wouldn't know how the explosion of the Hive Ships would end up. What if it caused a catatrosphic overload and amplified the nuclear blast x number of times over. Talk about having that translated through an active wormhole back to the point of origin? Potential casualties i can definitely foresee.

And if Teyla is gonna tag along, then maybe she should learn when not to go telling everyone exactly who woke up the bad guys. You could almost see that Shepard wanted to put her on the first puddle jumper back the farmville. And what is with her trying to save the feeder mouse in the Wraith ship? She couldn't figure out that dragging that guy back would slow them down and alert all the bad guys? And guess what Teyla, you signed on to a plan that would NUKE all of these ships. And unless you planned on hoping the Wraith would let you pack all of these people into busses I doubt they would survive the blast. Plus...PLUS she was all for dragging back the feeder mouse but when her partner got stunned, she bolted. She didn't call for help and try to hold off the single Wraith. She didn't go get help and say, 'Hey, we got a man who needs help. Remember when I saved Shepard after he got shot? We should do the same for this new ally'. Nope. She waited until she got back to the ship and said 'oh by the way, your son in law got shot and I left him. Time to go.' Teyla just peeves me because it seems she abandoned her people. Teal'c did basically the same thing but some how when he did it, it was kinda honorable. Teyla just seems like she wanted to move out of the trailer park and into the comfy suburbs of Atlantis... and that aint cool.

Lots of inconsistencies in the train of thought here. If we're to believe the original premise of Teyla's character, then we have to focus on the bigger picture that she is the leader and representative of at least one major factor of the Athosians. As such, she has to think, respond and act in accordance with that role as well as being part of the Atlantis Team.

Remember that she has to upkeep the diplomatic ties the Athosians have with these trading partners. To not mention that she had a hand in the reawakening of the Wraith and that they had indeed been reawakened is plain irresponsible. And the Athosians being the more honourable race (as compared to the Genii), such honesty and transparency is paramount in maintaining these trade relations (regardless of the presence of the Earth Atlantis team).

Having suffered at the hands of the Wraith, wouldn't you feel compelled to try and save an awake sentient prisoner especially if you knew, at THAT point, you had the tactical advantage of anonymity. If you like the premise of SG-1, then it's just a variation on the WE-DON'T-LEAVE-OUR-PEOPLE-BEHIND bit. And about the variation in modus operandi and not leaving Sheppard behind, remember that they had several Atlantis team members to help drag his ass back after being stunned. She probably couldn't do rescue the stunned Genii Daddy-O on her own because look at the physical disparity between the two. He is so much heavier awkward than Ford was (remember Suspicion and there she already had trouble trying to get his unconscious ass back to Atlantis).

In fact, it is a testament to her character that she tries to help where possible instead of hiding behind the more tactical reason of, it would jepoardize the bigger mission. You can't really compare it with Teal'C because of the fact that Teal'C in a similar situation would be more physically able to effect a rescue operation. That doesn't mean that she should be shot down for trying.

As for Teyla only wanting creature comforts, I think it's laughable. In a situation like this where you're plagued by the constant possibility of death at a Wraith's feeding mitt, wouldn't the more attractive comfort be in the company of your own kinsmen, people who understood you, loved and cherished you and no matter the outcome, would stand by you, even if they were to fall? Instead she faces a higher risk of deadly outcomes by going through the wormhole in uncharted territory with the stargate teams, and not even with her own kinspeople. That speaks a lot for the character.

I think a deeper look at this is warranted before mouthing off on unfounded criticisms. No? Shadowmaat, piggy, your observations?

Sicarius
August 31st, 2004, 02:37 AM
Enjoyed the humor in this episode, liked the whole thing overall.

One nitpick...

If you descended into a dark scary hole and found out your radio didn't work from the bottom, wouldn't you just climb back up the 10 feet to the top to shoot off a message? Or perhaps radio before descending into the dark scary hole? =)

Major Fischer
August 31st, 2004, 02:53 AM
Instead she faces a higher risk of deadly outcomes by going through the wormhole in uncharted territory with the stargate teams, and not even with her own kinspeople. That speaks a lot for the character.


Not only does she face a higher risk of death by simply going through the gate with stargate teams, but the Atlantis teams have a demonstrated lack of understanding of for lack of a better term 'street wise' in the Pegesus Galaxy. They are probably just as likely to get her killed by saying the wrong thing at the wrong time to someone, oh, like the Genii.

kris
August 31st, 2004, 10:37 AM
To Kryon 22 (sorry still learning to use the board tools):

[Quote]>>>>>As for Teyla only wanting creature comforts, I think it's laughable. In a situation like this where you're plagued by the constant possibility of death at a Wraith's feeding mitt, wouldn't the more attractive comfort be in the company of your own kinsmen, people who understood you, loved and cherished you and no matter the outcome, would stand by you, even if they were to fall? Instead she faces a higher risk of deadly outcomes by going through the wormhole in uncharted territory with the stargate teams, and not even with her own kinspeople. That speaks a lot for the character.<<<<<<<<<[quote]

You have made a reasonable counterpoint to Derrick's plaint about Teyla but I also think his has plenty of validity. Thing is, we don't enough about Teyla yet, that is about her character. So far, we don't know much about the inner mind workings of Teyla. She knows about the Wraith--great way to introduce that exposition into the stories--and she is the established diplomat amongst some of the cultures. This is not depth of character. We have no idea how she really felt living amongst her people--okay, so she was happy and everything was perfect. Just like my family. She would want to stay.

I can't take this any further because scifi does not emphasize character study. I mean, if we found out she resented her family because they smothered her--nah, not going to happen on an adventure show. Maybe she's attracted to Sheppard--wouldn't some people love that storyline! People infatuated will give up a lot to be with their object of affection.

What I am trying to say is you both have good points and it's interesting to talk about them openly.

--Kris-----ready to arm wrestle

Teal'c
August 31st, 2004, 04:35 PM
Best episode since the pilot imo. Has Chief O'Brien had any roles as a good guy other than Star Trek TNG/DS9?

The Snapper, The Van, The Commitments, interMission, How Harry Became a Tree...

Brilliant episode, simply brilliant. I of course knew the Genii were to become enemies, but all the back and forth was great. And I actually didn't see the cloaked jumpers coming, I thought the Genii were going to capture Jumper 1...

Looking forward to Home now, Hammond's back! :D

derrickh
August 31st, 2004, 11:59 PM
It is different because you're talking about the relative scales of destruction involved in the combat maneouvres. Extrapolate the level of destruction capable in one kg of nuclear ordnance (and the corresponding number of warheads you're able to construct from it) versus one kg of biological agent. That one kg of innoculated toxin, could easily decimate an entire population of Wraith specimens (for lack of a better term). And having said that, when one's in the frame of reference to engineer a weapon for OFFENSIVE capabilities, you would look at modifying the toxin into a bioweapon capable of efficient delivery and uptake by the enemy...maximum exposure and possibly infectious, ie, clone the necessary agent's DNA into a modified highly infectious airborne virus that is specific for Wraith cells. Once you infect one hive colony, you literally wipe that colony out in a matter of hours/days. And one could reverse engineer this agent to be slow acting in spread, meaning, you could highly increase the possibility of transmitting the agent to other colony ships. Think opening a vial of virulent smallpox in a centre with massive international (interplanetary in this case) traffic. Get the picture?

Not really, no. It sounds like you're saying the bioweapon would be much more effective in killing more Wraith and on a wider scale with less risk to humans. If thats the case(and you made a good point of proving that it is the case) then the Atlantis team made a huge mistake by not hopping on board the bioweapon train.

Even with the most sophisticated massive supercomputing mainframes a lot of advanced biopharmaceuticals have to this day, the process of engineering a drug or protein or biologically viable agent to improve its characteristics and then testing it out on a population (or suitable animal model) takes many years of rigorous molecular design/testing as well as a lot of experimental application and study. There are also quite a number of host factors to study as well as taking into context the genetic heterogeneity of a population to which it is applied.

Thats a lot of big words which don't really mean much since the Doc managed to get pretty darn close to perfecting the drug in a couple of weeks using a Laptop and some test tubes. I say give the guy another month or so and he would've not only fixed the drug, but made it come in small chewable tablets that taste like chocolate ice cream.


Lots of inconsistencies in the train of thought here. If we're to believe the original premise of Teyla's character, then we have to focus on the bigger picture that she is the leader and representative of at least one major factor of the Athosians. As such, she has to think, respond and act in accordance with that role as well as being part of the Atlantis Team.

Remember that she has to upkeep the diplomatic ties the Athosians have with these trading partners. To not mention that she had a hand in the reawakening of the Wraith and that they had indeed been reawakened is plain irresponsible. And the Athosians being the more honourable race (as compared to the Genii), such honesty and transparency is paramount in maintaining these trade relations (regardless of the presence of the Earth Atlantis team).

This all depends on if the Ahtosians even trade anymore. They don't have access to a Stargate unless Weir sends a ship to lug them back to the city. And there's only so many beaver pelts that'll fit into the back of a puddle jumper. I don't believe it's neccasary for them to trade with other cultures since it was noted that they're on very fertile land with lots of animals and I'm sure that anything else they need could be taken care of by stuff found in the bottom of a closet in Atlantis. Need some oil for that lamp? Here, take an Atlantis Light(tm), it'll last 500 years. Want some spices for that meat? just use the Atlantis Salt Shaker(tm), it has enough to last for 8 generations.

Having suffered at the hands of the Wraith, wouldn't you feel compelled to try and save an awake sentient prisoner especially if you knew, at THAT point, you had the tactical advantage of anonymity. If you like the premise of SG-1, then it's just a variation on the WE-DON'T-LEAVE-OUR-PEOPLE-BEHIND bit. And about the variation in modus operandi and not leaving Sheppard behind, remember that they had several Atlantis team members to help drag his ass back after being stunned. She probably couldn't do rescue the stunned Genii Daddy-O on her own because look at the physical disparity between the two. He is so much heavier awkward than Ford was (remember Suspicion and there she already had trouble trying to get his unconscious ass back to Atlantis).

You know what, none of that matters. She's part of the Atlantis Team and no matter how fat that guy may have been, for that mission, he was part of the team,too. And you don't leave teammates behind. If it's like you say, and she's too weak to drag a wounded teammate, then she shouldn't be there in the first place. And worse, she didn't even try. So everyone who's more than 150lbs is just out of luck if they expect Teyla to help them out? The extra from Aliens that was stuck in that wall wasn't part of the team, but she was quick to try to pull him out. Where's the love for the Genii? So much for her being so honorable.

In fact, it is a testament to her character that she tries to help where possible instead of hiding behind the more tactical reason of, it would jepoardize the bigger mission. You can't really compare it with Teal'C because of the fact that Teal'C in a similar situation would be more physically able to effect a rescue operation. That doesn't mean that she should be shot down for trying.

This is hard to type without sounding condesending so please don't take it as such. That last paragraph makes no sense. It's a testament to her character that one second she trying to pull a screaming guy from a wall during a covert mission, and the next she's leaving her partner to die while she runs back to the ship? As soon as she tried to help that feeder mouse, she blew the mission. The Genii guy saw that and said 'Hey wait, we can't take that guy' He's the one that made the hard choice. And once again, if she can't carry the load, she better not step through that gate, She shouldn't be shot down for trying? Why not? Everyone else around her is.

As for Teyla only wanting creature comforts, I think it's laughable. In a situation like this where you're plagued by the constant possibility of death at a Wraith's feeding mitt, wouldn't the more attractive comfort be in the company of your own kinsmen, people who understood you, loved and cherished you and no matter the outcome, would stand by you, even if they were to fall? Instead she faces a higher risk of deadly outcomes by going through the wormhole in uncharted territory with the stargate teams, and not even with her own kinspeople. That speaks a lot for the character.

Teyla is acting exactly the opposite of what you describe. How is she a leader of her people if she only sees them on alternating weekends? Even Jonas knew that it's better to be a leader of you people, when you're WITH YOUR PEOPLE. Teyla is basically saying to her people, "See ya, wouldn't want to be ya!". Lets be honest, basically Teyla is an glamourized tour guide.(and I do mean glamourized..it only took her a couple of weeks to find a hairstylist to get rid of her ghetto athosian 'do). She's only there to facilitate meet and greets. Any Athosian could do that. You don't need to be the head muckitymuck just to say 'Genii, Atlantis. Atlantis, Genii.' From here it looks like Teyla's only in this to get in good with the rich kids and not have to live in a hut anymore.

D

Sy'onei
September 6th, 2004, 02:36 AM
One of the main things i enjoy about this cast is how their faults make their characters more believable. In every episode it's funny as hell to see one memeber of the crew slip-up.

Major Shepard isn't a Bruce Willis "Die Hard" bad azz, but in his own way he deals with things through a bit of strange humor. I also notice when push comes to shove, in the end he gets a bad azz edge to him.

What can I say about McKay? He takes things so seriously, yet this drives him to make me bust a gut everytime he's on the verge of a Hypoglascemic? reaction.

Ford is like Robin to Shepard's Batman. He's a young man who is learning like the rest of them to adapt to strange situations on another planet.

As for Weir, I can say she is very interesting. She can be passive at times but she is never above putting a person in check. As the series progresses I do feel she will develope her character more towards being a figure of authority in Atlantis.

Teyla's Naïveté shows how sheltered she actually was on her planet. She's learning about how other people she thought to be one thing are turning out to be another. It all about learning while she's fitting into her own skin on the Atlantis crew. For all of her naive traits she believes in being honest with others about the dangers they face. I do believe that actually being with her people is no progression at all when she can actually be on the field trying to work with the people that can maybe offer hope to weakening the wraith. What is she going to do...Lead them in planting crops when she can be helping with the problem with the Atlantis team?

Overall I am throwing positives to their negatives. During the next few seasons (sci-fi willing) I look forward to seeing each character and their personallities progress. The Genii progression will probably teach the crew to learn from their mistakes and never underestimate their foes. Maybe from their blunders of offering C4 with open smiles and trading for tava? beans with anyone will make them more astute in the coming altercations with the Genii.

Mirabel
September 8th, 2004, 02:44 PM
The Snapper, The Van, The Commitments, interMission, How Harry Became a Tree...

...The Englishman Who Went Up a Hill But Came Down a Mountain... stole that one right out from under Hugh Grant.

This show's a keeper. We're 8 episodes in, and none of the scripts have made me want to throw a brick at the tv. Not to mention that McKay rules the galaxy. ;)

watcher652
November 6th, 2004, 04:44 AM
I saw the repeat on SciFi tonight. I noticed 3 things that I missed the first time:

- When the team first comes thru the Stargate to the Genii planet, Teyla is telling the team about what food the Genii produce. She says "Tava Beans." McKay mis-hears this and say "Java?". As in JavaBeans, a computer term. I like how McKay gets in his computer jokes. He had one about Windows in Childhood's End.

- After the team and the Genii agree to work together, they sit down for a meal. McKay wonders if there is any lemon in the food. Ford tells him to eat. McKay asks Ford if he's ever seen anyone go into anaphylactic shock.

Apparently, McKay is worried enough about the food that he doesn't eat any of it. I noticed most everyone else chewing at one time or another during the meal. But I only saw McKay drinking. In fact, when Cowen and Sheppard were out of the room and McKay was talking about he could help the Genii get back on track, he didn't even have his plate right in front of him. It looked like he had pushed it away.

- The people Bates managed to trade with for some food were the Menarians.

Major Fischer
November 6th, 2004, 10:52 AM
I saw the repeat on SciFi tonight. I noticed 3 things that I missed the first time:

- When the team first comes thru the Stargate to the Genii planet, Teyla is telling the team about what food the Genii produce. She says "Tava Beans." McKay mis-hears this and say "Java?". As in JavaBeans, a computer term. I like how McKay gets in his computer jokes. He had one about Windows in Childhood's End.

Java. As in the island in the south pacific ocean known for it's coffee plantations. I think the that it's much more likely he was refering to coffee, since coffee was discussed earlier in the episode.

watcher652
November 6th, 2004, 02:44 PM
- When the team first comes thru the Stargate to the Genii planet, Teyla is telling the team about what food the Genii produce. She says "Tava Beans." McKay mis-hears this and say "Java?". As in JavaBeans, a computer term. I like how McKay gets in his computer jokes. He had one about Windows in Childhood's End.

Java. As in the island in the south pacific ocean known for it's coffee plantations. I think the that it's much more likely he was refering to coffee, since coffee was discussed earlier in the episode.

Ah, but who do you know calls those kind of coffee beans Java beans? While JavaBeans is a common (nowadays, anyway) computer software term.

David Hewlett, being the computer geek that he is, would appreciate the computer reference.

We need a writer, or David, to weigh in on this one! :)

Kanten
November 11th, 2004, 03:21 AM
I know nobody cares about my opinion, but I personally took it as a coffee reference, as the opening made him look obsessed with coffee and we've seen him drinking coffee other times this season as well. And coffee drinking is a lesser-used tech geek stereotype as well in some cases isn't it?

Crazedwraith
November 30th, 2004, 02:05 PM
Ooooh....Evil Chief O'Brien.

OK episode seemed a bit choppy at times moving from one portion of the story to another. Also seems to be a sort of prologue to a much larger Tauri/Genii Conflict.

Ugly Pig
November 30th, 2004, 02:11 PM
OK episode seemed a bit choppy at times moving from one portion of the story to another. Also seems to be a sort of prologue to a much larger Tauri/Genii Conflict.
Indeed. :D

Crazedwraith
November 30th, 2004, 02:31 PM
Indeed. :D

:) How is "Indeed" a Spoiler Tea....ERR...Pig? :P

Albion
November 30th, 2004, 02:55 PM
Well, so far Atlantis just hasn't grabbed me by the throat and shaken me up, but I continue to watch and record and haven't given up on it yet.

Last week's episode was the first that really held my attention all the way through. And I quite enjoyed this week's too. Those darn, pesky aliens. Don't you know they're never what they seem? Always up to something, darn them.

Wanted to smack that Sovra or whatever her name was all the way through. Little cow. And I enjoyed the decloaking of the puddle jumpers at the end.

Weir continues to....slip right past me. She has zero screen presence for me. I often find myself wondering what the point of her character is? She never seems to really have a handle on anything or be on top of a situation. Mostly her 'orders' get ignored by Shepherd and anyone else and I find myself thinking why no one as of yet has just mutinied and bundled her into retirement as useless.

I didn't have a problem with Torri Higginson playing the character on SG1 - although I greatly preferred Jessica Stein's portrayal. But in Atlantis she's just so bland and her character does nothing to help move stories along. I say pack her off to the mainland and leave Shepherd in charge. Seems like he is in all but name anyway.

Re the great coffee debate. Java is actually a pretty common nickname for coffee. It's kind of gone out of fashion in more recent years, but McKay is certainly old enough to use it as a term for coffee.

Albion :) (still watching...mostly enjoying...)

Ancients Rising
November 30th, 2004, 03:45 PM
I did like this episode a lot.

The fact the Genii are such arrogant pricks appeals to me.

I want us to kick their asses.

I agree the episode was a bit choppy and always kept on thinking "Evil Chief O'Brien", as he has been titled, would start to come out with stuff like "The tachyon emitter array is corroding the inertial field matrix" or whatever ;)

This episode was for me, as good as Poisoning The Well but still, I crave a Rising beater….come on….

Matt G
November 30th, 2004, 04:24 PM
OK...

1. Well the last time I saw Colm it was on the big screen in a pic called LayerCake. His character was cool in that. His character in this ep make for a pretty good ****** here!

2. While the Genii aren't out and out evil, they are complete morons! For starters what is the point of getting into a pi$$ing contest with a potential ally just because they're 'new to the neighbourhood' as Jacob Carter might say and woke up the local bad guys from hibernation ahead of schedule. And I doubt they'd have given a f-k had the positions been reversed between Tyrus and Teyla!

3. Having said that, this ep did have a lot of cool moments. Unlike this point in SG1, where Jack was the only character that stood out, the team's looking fairly rounded at the mo. Teyla seemed to look slightly better with the short hair and a lot looser than we've seen her so far which is cool. Full marks to Sheppard for out-bluffing the Genii at the end!

4. I though McKay was talking about coffee when he mentioned 'Java' as well!

Overall, they're sticking with the same gear they went up to in PtW! Maybe last week's ep has the edge but only an edge.

Ancients Rising
November 30th, 2004, 04:28 PM
OK...
Maybe last week's ep has the edge but only an edge.

Yep agree with that and I'd say Steve, sorry, Mr. I Am Your Death is the main reason for it. He was great :D

.:Lemon:.
December 1st, 2004, 08:46 AM
I liked this episode, and now I'm really looking forward to 'Home' next week. The Genii were really annoying....but in a good way, if that makes sense :S

shelsfc
December 1st, 2004, 12:03 PM
Really enjoyed this ep. I love Colm Meaney, and he was great in this.
I genuinely didn't see that coming at the end, very cool. Go Sheppard! :D

I do like the Genii, and I'm looking forward to seeing them again.
All the characters seem to be being developed, that's nice at this stage in the season.

Ugly Pig
December 1st, 2004, 12:46 PM
:) How is "Indeed" a Spoiler Tea....ERR...Pig? :P
Look at the context. :p

Anubis
December 6th, 2004, 09:41 AM
I liked Underground, the story, the camera position and the basic context of the episode. Finally a little bit more on Teyla and Ford, but yet still not enough. ;)

McKay was again great, with the atomic bomb line. :D Great!

CultTVGirl
December 9th, 2004, 08:32 AM
Wanted to smack that Sovra or whatever her name was all the way through. Little cow.

Me too! I thought she and Teyla were going to go at it a couple of times there. Perhaps they should've done - it would've given Teyla something interesting to do.

The Genii were seriously creepy. I didn't like them at all, but I suppose that's the point! Great villain material - especially Colm Meaney.


Weir continues to....slip right past me. She has zero screen presence for me. I often find myself wondering what the point of her character is? She never seems to really have a handle on anything or be on top of a situation.

I like Weir a lot. She tries to see every point of view when making a decision, which is good. Though sometimes she does agree to Sheppard's ideas a little too quickly! She also got in some great snarky lines in this episode. Gotta love the snarkiness. :D

Major Tyler
December 17th, 2004, 10:16 PM
I wonder why Rodney carried a P90 in this episode, especially since he didn't acrry one in the subsequent episodes, such as Home and The Defiant One. The scientists generally only carry such weapons when they are going into a hostile environment. All they thought they were doing was negotiating for food.

Just a curiosity...

GatetheWay
February 14th, 2005, 08:08 PM
Does anyone know where I can find a transcript of 'Underground'?

kris
February 14th, 2005, 08:35 PM
Does anyone know where I can fine a transcript of 'Underground'?

Try this.

I read transcripts here but have never checked for Underground. However, the bandwidth was exceeded as I posted this. It should return eventually.

http://www.stargatedanielfriendly.net/html/index.php

kris
February 15th, 2005, 11:18 PM
Looks like the DanielFriendly site has changed to:

http://www.scifigate.net

GatetheWay
February 16th, 2005, 11:11 AM
Thanks kris! Google kept on giving me that other site and it wasn't working. But now I have my transcript thank you for helping me. :D

kris
February 16th, 2005, 01:17 PM
Thanks kris! Google kept on giving me that other site and it wasn't working. But now I have my transcript thank you for helping me. :D

You're welcome. I like reading the transcripts - have to put a lot of your imagination into it, then check out the hundreds of screen captures. What's really weird is, when I finally see the episode, it feels like I already saw it in places. Deja vu!

Amazing the human mind.

I have also come to appreciate more the actors giving life to the lines and also the writers whose dialogue is so precise and has the perfect "ring" to it for realism.

SmartFox
February 24th, 2005, 09:26 PM
Really like Mckay and how calmly he was talking about Atomic bombs and how Sheppard was reacting to it. Nice move also by Sheppard with the cloaked ships.

SeaBee
April 9th, 2005, 12:18 AM
This was a good ep., with some nice touches. I liked the de-cloaking PJ moment.

I'm not sure that the Genii have any real staying power as bad guys, though.

Stricken
June 19th, 2005, 04:19 AM
~Whoo someone else we've pissed off, we should really warns other species, anyone noticed a trend how the Tauri always seem to annoy other species

Other than that good episode

SilverRider
November 24th, 2005, 11:44 PM
~Whoo someone else we've pissed off, we should really warns other species, anyone noticed a trend how the Tauri always seem to annoy other species

That's genetic. :P :P :P other than that we are a nice bunch of people of Earth. :D :p

andrelage
February 23rd, 2006, 10:14 AM
i loved the genii and how evil they are. imo this episode was good. i wasn't expecting there to be two jumpers cloaked at the end.

captain jake
April 9th, 2006, 11:15 AM
The start of the genii they might just be a more formidable enemy then the wraith themselfs.

Catsitter
May 14th, 2006, 02:58 PM
And if Teyla is gonna tag along, then maybe she should learn when not to go telling everyone exactly who woke up the bad guys. You could almost see that Shepard wanted to put her on the first puddle jumper back the farmville. And what is with her trying to save the feeder mouse in the Wraith ship? She couldn't figure out that dragging that guy back would slow them down and alert all the bad guys? And guess what Teyla, you signed on to a plan that would NUKE all of these ships. And unless you planned on hoping the Wraith would let you pack all of these people into busses I doubt they would survive the blast. Plus...PLUS she was all for dragging back the feeder mouse but when her partner got stunned, she bolted. She didn't call for help and try to hold off the single Wraith. She didn't go get help and say, 'Hey, we got a man who needs help. Remember when I saved Shepard after he got shot? We should do the same for this new ally'. Nope. She waited until she got back to the ship and said 'oh by the way, your son in law got shot and I left him. Time to go.' Teyla just peeves me because it seems she abandoned her people. Teal'c did basically the same thing but some how when he did it, it was kinda honorable. Teyla just seems like she wanted to move out of the trailer park and into the comfy suburbs of Atlantis... and that aint cool.



D

I know that hardly anybody is reading these season 1 episode threads by now, and this quote is from years ago, but I just want to post up my thoughts about Teyla's actions in this episode now I have watched it again just after watching Letters from Pegasus - I wonder if Teyla could have done more to try to save Tyrus, but didn't because she thought he deserved to be killed by the Wraith for shooting the prisoner? She says to him something like, "You're not the man I thought you were" and it kind of reminds me of LfP.

captain jake
May 15th, 2006, 09:34 AM
What's lfp?

schtroumph_c
May 21st, 2006, 11:14 AM
What's lfp?


Letter From Pegasus

captain jake
May 27th, 2006, 12:48 PM
O thanks so much it all makes sense now.

(And I am reading them)

Orovingwen
September 26th, 2006, 08:17 PM
"yeah sure we are prisoners and give willingly informations away... oh and you really want to attac the enemies?" And if not..well it doesn't bother the 'lantians anyway

In the episode McKay actually funny exspecially in the scene where they skip the havest ceremony*hehe*), Shep has really no idea what he's doing, Weir is the only reasonable here and Ford is backround decoration.

Colm Meaney is grat in here !(really has something from the the mirrow O'Brian :p) uuh and we see Sora the firts time, cuty!

meredithchandler73
November 16th, 2006, 10:54 AM
I really liked this episode. I'm torn about the Genii. Interesting to see how they have worked to defeat the Wraith, but they are SO ruthless. Can't imagine they will ever be allied with Atlantis since they can't really be trusted, so I can only imagine they are going to be getting in the way in the future. (Please - no spoilers. I'm plodding along from the beginning of the series.)

Love Colm Meaney, but I wished he was playing a nice guy. :)

Angela V
January 8th, 2007, 09:53 PM
Must remember to not watch stargate shows with star trek actors in it with my son:). He kept asking me why Miles was on Atlantis and why was he so mean? :)

EarthandBeyond
December 19th, 2007, 08:54 PM
The whole Teyla - Tyrus incident, was a really bad wrighten attempt to make Genii hostile to Atlantis folk.
I bet if O'niell was in command of that mission, that would have been the last episode for Teyla character. I mean come on: leaving a man behind, then not informing your CO about it, and at the end trying to justify her action by bad-mousing Tyrus's actions - how low can you get here? -a really bad wrighting i'd say.

garhkal
December 20th, 2007, 03:08 PM
I can actually see jack doing the same thing as Teyla here...

EarthandBeyond
December 21st, 2007, 01:26 AM
I can actually see jack doing the same thing as Teyla here...

Really? I cant see how O'niell would have gone against his principles.

garhkal
December 21st, 2007, 09:36 PM
His principles of never leave a friend behind imo would not count towards one who was getting them into the mess with his shouting and shooting..

EarthandBeyond
December 22nd, 2007, 12:59 AM
His principles of never leave a friend behind imo would not count towards one who was getting them into the mess with his shouting and shooting..

O'Niell would have never watched one member of his team beeing draged away just few feats from him, with out trying to save him. No matter how bad he though Tyros was. Because attempting to save him, would have been the right thing to do. And thats what Jack was all about.

jelgate
December 22nd, 2007, 07:04 AM
O'Niell would have never watched one member of his team beeing draged away just few feats from him, with out trying to save him. No matter how bad he though Tyros was. Because attempting to save him, would have been the right thing to do. And thats what Jack was all about.But doing that would have meant death for O'Neill. Yes, he would go back for teamates, but?* npt to the point that it was sucide. Becauase going back for Tyros would have meant a mission failure and death for his whole team and not one man (Tyros)

garhkal
December 22nd, 2007, 04:14 PM
But doing that would have meant death for O'Neill. Yes, he would go back for teamates, but?* npt to the point that it was sucide. Becauase going back for Tyros would have meant a mission failure and death for his whole team and not one man (Tyros)

Very true. While i think he would have tried to help Tyros, i do NOT think he would have done so if it jeopardized everyone else.

EarthandBeyond
December 22nd, 2007, 06:46 PM
But doing that would have meant death for O'Neill. Yes, he would go back for teamates, but?* npt to the point that it was sucide. Becauase going back for Tyros would have meant a mission failure and death for his whole team and not one man (Tyros)

First of all, they have already been discovered, because of that mans in a cocoon, yelling. Second, there were only 2 Wraith Drone draging Tyros away, she could have with easy taken them out and help Tyros. Third, she should have radioed for help, Cowen and Sheppard could have been there in no time to help her drag Tyros back. - Thats pretty much what O'Niell would have done if he was in Teylas place. I bet even Teal'c would have stayed and fight.
And as i said at the start, be O'Niell in Sheppards place instead, knowing all what Teyla did, she would have been dissmissed from ever going with Atlantis folk to off-world missions. Who would want to group with a member that chickens out when it gets tough and and trys to cover up her actions.

EarthandBeyond
December 22nd, 2007, 07:00 PM
Very true. While i think he would have tried to help Tyros, i do NOT think he would have done so if it jeopardized everyone else.

Its funny you mentioned that. It is exacly because of Teylas cowerdly actions, Genii turned on Sheppards team, puting his team in danger. - And that exacly why i think this was a cheap way for wrighters to alienate Genii and Atlantis team. They could have spended a 5 extra minutes to come up with a better way to play all this out.

Butlersgate
February 25th, 2009, 11:20 AM
the gennii i think are a great enemy, especially when kolya get's involved :D

escyos
May 15th, 2009, 04:10 AM
This was awesome, loved how they are pretty much the only race in the peg. to trick the wraith

MechaThor
July 14th, 2009, 06:18 AM
After watching series 5 on DVD I have decided to go back and start watching some of my favorite series 1 episodes including this one which I had not seen in a long time.

I really enjoy the way the Genii are introduced, and although the Genii are not the best enemies ever, this story did lead to the events in The Storm and The Eye, two of the best episodes in Atlantis history.

However after re-watching this episode I found one thing really shocking, and that is the appearance of the Wrath sets from series 1. Oh my Goa'uld System Lord do they look bad, infact they don't even look Wrath, especially when compared to the amazing sets for the Wrath we got in series 4 and 5.
The Wrath set from this episode just looked so bland, unfinished and pieced together, especially the food cocoons which looked really out of place. The Wrath sets back then also looked allot more blue and more architectural. Of Course I can forgive them as they where still experimenting with the designs of the Wrath ships, but still the difference is massive. I guess however you could say that Different Hive ships grow in different ways, so no one Hive looks the same inside. But even so it still looks terrible compared to the new ones.

Shame

ktebid
February 9th, 2010, 11:08 PM
ok, next episode on my rewatch list :)

I thought this was a good introduction for a more advanced race. I was a bit unsure of Teyla leaving Tyros behind, however she was a PG native and their thoughts on rescuing people taken by the wraith were different. I loved the stand off towards the end.

asdf1239
March 31st, 2010, 09:38 AM
i do not see why races that actually try to fight back such as the genii are considered bad guys while the athosians who sit on their butts while being culled are supposed to be sympathetic. it seems that the athosians would have a lot to learn from the genii.

Matt G
April 7th, 2010, 02:12 PM
The Genii are dishonourable bleeps though.

asdf1239
April 7th, 2010, 02:15 PM
still theyve done a better job than the athosians who should stop relying on atlantis for help and try to defend themselves against the wraith.

mrscopterdoc
June 26th, 2010, 01:08 PM
Not one of my favorite eppys of the season.

Elorendil
June 30th, 2010, 09:39 PM
Interesting episode. When Cowen first came on, I was like ,"Hey, look, it's Miles O'Brien from DS9!!" Anyway, back to the episode - all the double crossing and lying was interesting to follow. Not my favorite episode of the season so far, though.

maneth
November 11th, 2010, 09:05 PM
The Genii certainly seemed interesting. Good to know they'll be back! The look on Cowen's face when the two other puddle jumpers appeared...

Skie
March 14th, 2011, 04:05 PM
Its funny you mentioned that. It is exacly because of Teylas cowerdly actions, Genii turned on Sheppards team, puting his team in danger. - And that exacly why i think this was a cheap way for wrighters to alienate Genii and Atlantis team. They could have spended a 5 extra minutes to come up with a better way to play all this out.

Yep, totally agree to that, especially as we later see that Teyla is no coward at all! I even think that they wouldn't have needed this Teyla-Tyres thing to let the Genii turn against them.

Other then that, it was a great episode. I especially liked those precautionary measures Sheppard took. I really missed that in the latest two seasons. There I got the feeling they never were cautious and it was just either a means of Rodney finding a miraculous solution or about brute force. That's what I loved in S1-3 using your head for thinking and not as battering ram. :D

Skie
March 16th, 2011, 02:38 AM
A question just popped into my mind. How could the lanteans read the wraith device as they had no interface like the Genii did?

mrscopterdoc
June 4th, 2011, 06:44 PM
I especially liked those precautionary measures Sheppard took. I really missed that in the latest two seasons. There I got the feeling they never were cautious and it was just either a means of Rodney finding a miraculous solution or about brute force. That's what I loved in S1-3 using your head for thinking and not as battering ram. :D

So very true! I agree! In the later seasons they made decisons that just made me wonder....

Lt.Colonel John Sheppard
June 8th, 2012, 05:15 PM
This episode reminds me of SG-1's The Other Side.

NowIWillDestroyAbydos
June 11th, 2012, 04:53 PM
Thought it was a pretty good episode.

I'll say this, when they were hooking up the Wraith thing up, damn did that screen look retro. I love it.

And once again, we p***ed off some aliens (we do that way too much).

Tomorrow, we find a way home.

Krisz
June 11th, 2012, 05:07 PM
I too wondered why they made more enemies than friends, guess they are too jealous of their technological superiority. Of course it doesn't help making an enemy of one of the more technologically advanced ones who get even more excited at the prospect of getting hold of it at any cost!

Once again they are no where near Atlantis, exploring that to find something to use against the Wraith, but I digress!!! :P :D

Colm Meany was great here as the seemingly welcoming but deceptive host. A great game of poker face and bluffing between him and Sheppard, great tension with the mistrust, and of course Sheppard getting the upper hand with superior wits and technology! Not too bad an episode. :D

hlndncr
June 11th, 2012, 07:53 PM
I'll never look at the Amish the same way again. You think there are nuclear research facilities beneath the farms of Western Pennsylvania?

I found this episode sufficiently entertaining but I have lots of problems with it.

First, why didn't Weir go to negotiate with the Genii? That is her speciality and she would clearly be better at it the Shep.

Second, the Genii were so concerned about keeping their strength and tech a secret but after this it seems that everyone in the galaxy knows the Genii are a military power. What happened to them wanting to protect themselves?

Third, what's with Teyla leaving a man behind and Shep being OK with it? What happened to those SGC values? And isn't it ironic that the guy gets left to die because he didn't want to save someone else from the same fate (and Teyla was ready to risk capture to save the other guy)?

Honestly, I think the Genii had legit reasons to hate and mistrust the Atlantis folks. They've really screwed up quite a bit and put the rest of the galaxy in a terrible spot. Kind of hard to make friends with that opening line.

mathpiglet
June 12th, 2012, 01:13 PM
I agree with your analysis, hlndncr.

Weir should have gone. Now, how do you think the episode would have been different? I'm afraid it might have been a more story, since she would not have investigated the hidden bunker.

hlndncr
June 12th, 2012, 02:03 PM
I agree with your analysis, hlndncr.

Weir should have gone. Now, how do you think the episode would have been different? I'm afraid it might have been a more story, since she would not have investigated the hidden bunker.

I don't know, I think she would have had John and McKay investigate and they still would have found the bunker. The negotiations with Cowan just would have been very different. I think she would have been able to keep a stronger bargaining position with the Genii and difuse some of the hostilities and tensions between them and the Atlantis team. After all, that's what a good negotiator does.

mathpiglet
June 12th, 2012, 04:01 PM
I agree, but I think we would have lost good stories without the hostility.

Lythisrose
June 12th, 2012, 10:26 PM
Joe Mallozzi's memories of this episode:
http://josephmallozzi.wordpress.com/2012/06/10/june-10-2012-misery-comic-con-days-of-stargate-past-atlantis-poisoning-the-well-and-underground/

UNDERGROUND (108)

Given the fact the wraith target technologically advanced societies, it would make sense that certain civilizations would seek to disguise their accomplishments from the enemy. Enter the Genii. I liked them as a wildcard, a military society that could prove both friend and foe, depending on the circumstances. I also liked the continued clash between the civilian and military approaches on Atlantis, something we touch on in the previous episode but really comes to the fore here in the discussions between Weir and Sheppard. Again, Sheppard makes sense and Weir inevitably acquiesces to his game plan on the strength of his argument, but what is particularly interesting about this ethical clash is not the debate itself but the fact that Sheppard makes a unilateral decision on dealing with the Genii BEFORE discussing it with his defacto Commander. Not once, but twice!

Later in the episode, the Atlantis team comes clean about the wraith and warns the Genii that they were awakned as a result of their failed rescue op and subsequent murder of a queen. Well, yes and no. Certainly yes in their minds but one could make a very strong argument that the wraith would have been awakened regardless, not because of Sheppard’s actions on the failed rescue op, but because of the information the queen draws out of Sumner: the existence of Earth and the billions of humans just waiting to be fed upon. Of course, Sheppard wasn’t privy to the conversation and has no way of knowing that, while he may blame himself for the wraith’s early awakening, it’s likely that the wraith would have awakened anyway.

Lieutenant Sparrow
June 13th, 2012, 04:44 AM
An alright ep but I'm not a fan of the Genii.

I do love the scenes between Shep and Kolya later on though. Very cool rivalry. I also love the Genii weapons.

Cowen was annoying. We like you. Changed my mind you die! We like you again. Changed my mind again you die! Ugh.

xevgyx
June 13th, 2012, 05:50 AM
No matter how many times i watch it i just cant start liking the Genii :( They are the only race that i find annoying and Kolya is just making me nuts! I like how the ep ends with the surprise from Sheppard though

Jae'a
June 13th, 2012, 03:59 PM
Cowen was annoying. We like you. Changed my mind you die! We like you again. Changed my mind again you die! Ugh.

:lol:
I did like seeing Colm Meaney though, being a fan of Deep Space Nine.
Overall, a bit 'meh' though...
My LiveJournal post (http://jo-r-lee.livejournal.com/59315.html)

gatechick
June 13th, 2012, 04:58 PM
This is not one of my favorite episodes, especially because it highlights one of the things that annoyed me most about the members of the Atlantis expedition. Why would you go investigate something on the land of others without permission. They would never allow a guest of Atlantis to roam freely and go exploring on their own. They would be suspicious of them and their motives. I can see why they made so many enemies. I think Atlantis should have expected to be treated just so because of their actions. (I mean yeah I know it wouldn't make for much of a show, but it makes for great exploration of the topic) Atlantis and SG-1 always seemed to think it was their right to come into another civilization and just freely walk about. The never extended the same courtesy to others.

jelgate
June 17th, 2012, 07:35 PM
I have to agree with not having Weir negioate. This is how area of expertise. The first time Sheppherd went back with using C4 on the Geni stumps Weir should have been on the planet negioating with them. It made little sense for Sheppherd's military force to be involved in negioating for food. It made even less sense to help making nuclear bombs. That violates so many laws on most of nations of Earth that it is ridicilous. That said I do like the episode. The enemy nature of Geni is an interesting one. I look at the episode and I have to wonder what do we do in this episode that made Geni hate us so much. And I think it comes down to trust. The Geni are paranoid and suspicious to trust Atlantis. I have to think this parnoia is a result of the constant fear of the Wraith.

Matt G
June 19th, 2012, 04:13 AM
Midweek, another ep of SG1

1. As I've said twice on this thread alone, the problem with the Genii is that they are bleeps! Yes our guys screwed up by waking up the Wraith but Cowan still seriously over-reacted.

2. Rewatching it this time round I was reminded how 'little' Teyla knew about the Genii and particularly how little she knew Sora. How much of the Genii's farmer personas are genuine and and how much is/was faked?

3. Maybe Weir would have been better at negotiating but that wouldn't have stopped the messy stuff from happening.

4. I smiled a bit more at Shep's deceptions.

Still fun.

ZRFTS
June 23rd, 2012, 07:06 PM
Underground

In SG1 we've met technically advanced cultures beyond our wildest imaginations while in SGA we've met seemingly simplistic cultures with either a hidden secret or anterior motives; I guess it's just the way it goes in the Pegasus galaxy... In this episode, the Atlantis crew encounters a bunch of traders from Taylor's long personal list of contacts but as it turns out, they too have a secret and as an additional shock, ulterior motives.

The initial deception of them as farmers is good enough; I liked their pleasant environment and it sort of supported the odd thing that was going on. Just imagine, the tons of people farming and the celebrations to be had... However, once they get to the underground city things get to be a bit wonky; I mean sure, it's shocking that this is their true secret but the people slowly transform from a bunch of compassionate folks to a mix between a distrustful society and a society living in fear, with the distrustfulness being eerily familiar and complacent as a whole. I like some of the underground city with it's 50's like tech and the society isn't 100% antagonistic (which makes their scenes entertaining); the woman is an example of this as she manages to carry a friendly personality but the society we come to know in this episode feels like the usual distrustful amount of people; the leader, some bits of the woman, her father... I understand that this is something SGA is doing, introducing something seemingly simple and then including a twist or motives that are ultimately questionable; they even did it with the previous episode but they could of been a bit more unique with the plots they have, watching an entire society of people betray them is much more exciting when it's unique and non-cliched.


http://img17.imageshack.us/img17/3734/sgaallthesame.jpg
In the end, they're all the same.

The arguments relating to trust are done well enough; they manage to be competent and in an SGA way, almost insightful as the growth of a simple thing into a more complex thing is noted throughout the episode. What is seen makes us think about how far we're willing to go, how much we're willing to trust the other in order to have a common Ally in the fight against the Wraith; even Dr. Weir has objections and she makes them dually noted but she goes along with it chagrinally because she has some hope that the plans will work. Unfortunately there isn't much to go along and the entire topic becomes generic midway though the episode, I mean much of us know about the concept of trust and it's only marginally interesting because it involves A-bombs and the Wraith; it would of been nice to see the concept of trust done in a different way (and it is somewhat) but it's ultimately used in a way that's generic; not even bothering to make itself known from the crowd. It isn't a big deal but still...

They do manage to include the Wraith in a way that breaks up the monotony and the journey into the Wraith hive is entertaining; it's tense... it's exhilarating and thought the initial impact of it has lessened, it still manages to be scary and claustrophobic. Seeing Shepherd scale the rooms of the hive is good alongside the crew, it's moments like this which allow him to show off the best of him, well aside from the moments where he leads and the moments where he does cool stuff; even the Geminii guys do some respectable stuff as well as their perception of life leads to a decent scene, well until the moment where he turns back and kills someone. I mean you're not supposed to be drawing attention to yourselves, even if you were against saving him, why kill him? Anyways, the moments where they get the data, the chase and subsequent escape from the Wraith hive was done well enough and the fact that the data acquired from the Wraith is used to further the threat and may even be used in subsequent episodes well, it just proves SGA is focused on moving forward.


http://img339.imageshack.us/img339/192/sgamovingforward.jpg
SGA... Moving forward.

I have mentioned many times that Rodney is annoying, detracts from the episode he's in and almost wants to seem like the center of attention; well this may be one of his finest hours yet as there is barely anything that detracts from his character. (not to say that there is though) Focusing on an A-bomb allows David Hewlett to focus his performance and provide something that digs into his character, showing off his quirkiness, knowledge, his admiration and more importantly, his worthiness; to see him placed in situations like this brings out the best of his character. I have no idea why the writers make him annoying and have him do weird sounds or make him say weird quotes, maybe because it's funny, maybe because it defines his character; all I know is that it's distracting, mostly undermines his character and makes me look at him as someone who has potential but contradicts that by being unlikable; not to say he has his fans but still... These types of things is what Rodney was made for, it allows him to express himself and really show off his character in an appealing way; we don't want to see Rodney wearing a shield making quips, we want to see him helping out with an A-bomb.

Ford is nice in this episode but I really liked Taylor; her performance was approachable and we even learned a bit more about her here. There are tons of things we don't know about her and to see her chat it up with that girl about the trust and the trades, to see her utilize past events in her life and to utilize that in a way that gives a hint to what she's been through... That right there showcases the potential she has; her list of contacts, her friendships and even her life could possibly fill up an entire season of SGA. I really hope the SGA people use her more often because this episode showcases what could be done with her in regards to the series. I really would of liked to see more of her though, I mean the society is one of Taylor's contacts and she's sidelined between Shephard and Rodney; granted I've read Stargate writers don't know how to deal with their female characters but this seems like the perfect chance to give one of your potential-filled characters the chance to shine. Maybe in a couple of episodes they'll do that.


http://img535.imageshack.us/img535/4539/sgataylor.jpg
They should be focusing on her right now.

This episode is entertaining enough but is quite disappointing compared to the last episode; regardless, this is still a good outing for Stargate. The situation that they're in is quite entertaining and Rodney gets to shine here but there's still a bit of wonkyness mostly relating to the subject matter of trust, the society and the plotting of the episode as a whole; this is something you won't regret watching but there's also the ulterior feeling that more could of been done with this concept. I mean an underground civilization, Wraith, the fassad? You could create 100 fanfics if you were truly imaginative... A decent way to kill an hour.

7.5/10

bookwormjules
November 13th, 2012, 09:15 AM
Rewatching this episode, and I find how much I enjoyed the Genii storyline. I wish we had more of a focus on them throughout the series. This isn't the best episode with them in it, but it does touch on some interesting points. Some if which were already touched upon above.

I never liked Sora. She was a character I never wanted to see again. But the results of this episode, have her return. Although the episode arc she returns in, was one if my favourites.

Cluas
February 12th, 2013, 05:32 AM
This one was way better that the previous. I like to hate the Genii.

I guess there are some really awful plotholes in here, but I enjoyed it much more than the previous

:sheppardanime23:

StargateMillennium
July 18th, 2014, 05:03 PM
So, they were going to trade medicine and C4 for food. They were still cut off from Earth and had to work under the assumption they would be indefinitely cut off from Earth. So, quick question. What are they going to do when they run out of C4?

garhkal
July 19th, 2014, 03:02 PM
Never thought of that. perhaps they felt that earth might be able to connect back to them after finding a new ZPM? Either that, or there were enough techs that knew how to make it (or dynamite) they didn't worry about it.

mrscopterdoc
August 20th, 2014, 09:11 AM
I'll never look at the Amish the same way again. You think there are nuclear research facilities beneath the farms of Western Pennsylvania?

:lol: makes you stop and think!