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GateWorld
August 5th, 2004, 09:35 PM
<DIV ALIGN=CENTER><TABLE WIDTH=450 BORDER=0 CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=7><TR><TD><DIV ALIGN=LEFT><FONT FACE="Arial" SIZE=2 COLOR="#000000"><A HREF="http://www.gateworld.net/atlantis/s1/107.shtml"><IMG SRC="http://www.gateworld.net/atlantis/graphics/107.jpg" WIDTH=160 HEIGHT=120 ALIGN=RIGHT HSPACE=10 VSPACE=2 BORDER=0 STYLE="border: 1px black solid" ALT="Visit the Episode Guide"></A><FONT SIZE=1 COLOR="#666666">DISCUSS ...</FONT>
<FONT SIZE=4 COLOR="#0066BF"><B>POISONING THE WELL</B></FONT>
<FONT SIZE=1>EPISODE NUMBER - 107</FONT>
<IMG SRC="/images/clear.gif" WIDTH=1 HEIGHT=10 ALT="">
The team finds a world whose people are on the brink of a discovery that may make them immune to the Wraith feeding.

<B><A HREF="http://www.gateworld.net/atlantis/s1/107.shtml">Visit the Episode Guide >></A></B></FONT></DIV></TD></TR></TABLE></DIV>

Bobthespirit
August 20th, 2004, 08:11 PM
I only have one problem with this episode. I find the speed at which the whole world committed to taking the drug implausible.

I mean, it was hard enough for America to get the people behind entering World War II even with Hitler's rampage across Europe. Now, overnight, we have 96% of the population in favor of killing half their population in order to fight against an enemy that would probably only kill around half of them anyway.

Now, maybe they put a really good spin on it, and maybe they were motivated by fear, and maybe the other side wasn't represented. But, come on. I would believe 58% of the vote. Not 96%.

They should have tried harder to justify the other side's point of view. As it is it's just 'Main characters are right, everyone else is wrong' as we see constantly in every kind of scifi.

I think the drug should have killed more like 10-20% of the people who took it. That way it'd be even more plausible for them to commit to it that easily.

Vyse
August 20th, 2004, 08:13 PM
I only have one problem with this episode. I find the speed at which the whole world committed to taking the drug implausible.

I mean, it was hard enough for America to get the people behind entering World War II even with Hitler's rampage across Europe. Now, overnight, we have 96% of the population in favor of killing half their population in order to fight against an enemy that would probably only kill around half of them anyway.

Now, maybe they put a really good spin on it, and maybe they were motivated by fear, and maybe the other side wasn't represented. But, come on. I would believe 58% of the vote. Not 96%.

They should have tried harder to justify the other side's point of view. As it is it's just 'Main characters are right, everyone else is wrong' as we see constantly in every kind of scifi.

I think the drug should have killed more like 10-20% of the people who took it. That way it'd be even more plausible for them to commit to it that easily.

I see what you mean, but after so much time of the Wraith destroying their progress I can see 96% of people in favor of the drug.

Mio
August 20th, 2004, 08:13 PM
I only have one problem with this episode. I find the speed at which the whole world committed to taking the drug implausible.
Well. When your world has been attacked every century for thousands of years.....

Vyse
August 20th, 2004, 08:17 PM
Well. When your world has been attacked every century for thousands of years.....

Exactly, more than 50% of the people would die from the wraith attack, so it was really the only choice.

ShadowMaat
August 20th, 2004, 08:19 PM
I loved all the focus on Carson, but the ep itself was kinda draggy and far too preachy for my tastes. I could, however, buy 96% of the population agreeing to the drug. Americans sure as hell wouldn't want anything to do with it, but these people are from another planet with a very different mentality, different problems, different culture, different everything.

Icemancmd
August 20th, 2004, 08:23 PM
I thought it was a great esp. I voted OUTSTANDING on the Sites poll for the first time since the first 2 esps. (The others were all 4 outta 5).

I thought we learned a lot from this esp. and i hope we have a follow up of this esp in season 2.

Faith
August 20th, 2004, 08:29 PM
I really liked this ep but I wish we could see more of the city of Atlantis.

We did learn alot by this ep. Hmm... the wraith are like the Ashen "Very patient"

NightGloom
August 20th, 2004, 08:36 PM
Good episode! And Dr. Beckett was in it a lot, which made me very happy. And he said "Scotland" for some reason I like when people with Scottish accents say "Scotland." I felt kinda bad for Steve though. They probably could have kept him going- did they really need all those Athosians and what does Teyla do anyway? :p

keshou
August 20th, 2004, 08:43 PM
I enjoyed the episode. I thought it was in interesting way to use the wraith they'd captured - good old "Steve" - and an interesting examination of the lengths a population was willing to go to fight something that had decimated its people for eons. I really felt for the guy who volunteered to be the wraith's victim.

I did think it dragged a little at times and it was pretty predictable that Dr. Beckett's lady friend was a goner. However I enjoy it when the scifi genre is used to examine these difficult moral issues so not a bad episode for me. Heck it was just nice to see them exploring some new worlds, unlike the SG-1 episode preceding it.

My fave McKay didn't have much to do but spout a few snarky lines, Shep was in pretty good form although I think he's trying a little bit too hard to be cool, Weir was okay, Beckett was endearing, Teyla still bugs me. ;)

Livi2Jack
August 20th, 2004, 08:46 PM
Exactly, more than 50% of the people would die from the wraith attack, so it was really the only choice.
No, the Wraith were not attacking at that moment. Kits could have been issued with instructions to take in case of attack with warnings that testing would continue and the serum may be replaced, so keep up with the news.

Icemancmd
August 20th, 2004, 08:51 PM
Hahah that was the greatest. They name the Wraith STEVE and kept calling him that. That made me laugh so much.

crazylinguist
August 20th, 2004, 08:55 PM
I felt kinda bad for Steve though. They probably could have kept him going- did they really need all those Athosians and what does Teyla do anyway? :p

LOL :D

I know Wraith are BAD, but I kinda felt sorry for good old Steve too.. maybe it was because they gave him a name.

NightGloom
August 20th, 2004, 09:06 PM
Yeah, Steve woulda made a good pet, unlike a dog you can talk to him and he would talk back and say about how you're all doomed and how his kind is going to come feed off of everyone. Could knock him out and dress him up in fun costumes and have tea parties with him...

crazylinguist
August 20th, 2004, 09:08 PM
Yeah, Steve woulda made a good pet, unlike a dog you can talk to him and he would talk back and say about how you're all doomed and how his kind is going to come feed off of everyone. Could knock him out and dress him up in fun costumes and have tea parties with him...

:D
Too bad he would try to eat you... :(

NightGloom
August 20th, 2004, 09:15 PM
Yeah, guess he would have to stay behind bars. Might be able to get him to do it too.
"Now drink the nice tea and I'll feed you... NO! PINKIE FINGER UP! NOW! I SAID PINKIE FINGER UP! Aw, now you've done it no human life force for you! Now it's time for a staring contest"

TheHomegaMan
August 20th, 2004, 09:20 PM
It puts the lotion on the skin or else it gets the hose again!

Steve was too much fun. Too bad he's a dead Steve now... :(

crazylinguist
August 20th, 2004, 09:26 PM
Steve was too much fun. Too bad he's a dead Steve now... :(

:( Poor Steve. And just when wraith were becoming more 'personal' bad guys. I wish they had made Steve escape and be a major problem as a future bad guy or something...oh well.

Mio
August 20th, 2004, 09:28 PM
It puts the lotion on the skin or else it gets the hose again!

Steve was too much fun. Too bad he's a dead Steve now... :(
I agree. Steve was a MUCH more interesting character than....

hmm...

Teyla. I still don't like her.

NightGloom
August 20th, 2004, 09:30 PM
:( Poor Steve. And just when wraith were becoming more 'personal' bad guys. I wish they had made Steve escape and be a major problem as a future bad guy or something...oh well.

That would have been great. And everyone complains that they never kill off major characters. I mean, I felt a personal connection to Steve. When he was telling Sheppard that he was doomed it was like he was telling me that I was doomed. And when he was doing the whole menacing glaring thing it was like he was glaring right at me. *sniff* I'm sorry, I just can't go on...

ShadowMaat
August 20th, 2004, 09:34 PM
"How many Hive ships are activated?"

"All of them."

That's not really an answer. How many is ALL? Two? Three? Three hundred? I'm surprised they let him get away with such a vague answer.

TheHomegaMan
August 20th, 2004, 09:34 PM
I'd like to dedicate this thread to the memory of Steve (b. ep 101, d. ep 107)

May he rest in pieces. And may Sheppard find a more entertaining captive to test out his quips on...

Would anyone else like to say a few words before we close the coffin?

ShadowMaat
August 20th, 2004, 09:36 PM
Would anyone else like to say a few words before we close the coffin?
Eleka nahmen nahmen
Ah tum ah tum eleka nahmen...

Wait, wrong show...

crazylinguist
August 20th, 2004, 09:37 PM
"How many Hive ships are activated?"

"All of them."

That's not really an answer. How many is ALL? Two? Three? Three hundred? I'm surprised they let him get away with such a vague answer.


This surprised me too. I thought they would push him for all the information they could get out of him. Maybe Sheppard thought that they wouldn't get anything out of him, and it would just be a waste of time.

crazylinguist
August 20th, 2004, 09:40 PM
Eleka nahmen nahmen
Ah tum ah tum eleka nahmen...

Wait, wrong show...


:D No one Mourns the Wicked! Er...Steve. Steve was a bad guy that we will forever remember...with fondness...?...

Major Fischer
August 20th, 2004, 09:49 PM
I liked this epsiode, it still didn't have an entirely smooth feel, but it's certainly on the same lines as late season 1 early season 2 of SG1. Good story, but sort of inconsistant or unsure characterization.

The title made the plot kind of predictable to me, but eh. So... Katherine's random list of unrelated comments...

- Ties. I always thought hanging little nooses around your neck was a kind of odd custom on earth, but in the a galaxy far far away?

- Steve. I just wish that more people had taken to calling him that. It was really amusing to me for some reason. Sometimes Sheppard feels a little too Jack-like to me, but this was a line I couldn't have seen Jack saying.

- Having spent way too much time studying international conferences and agreements, I took some perverse amusement in the idea of Wraith eating 1920s statesmen. Completely geeky thing.

- I liked the Star Trek reference, it was a nice touch. Especially the line about McKoy being the doctor Dr. Beckett played in real life.

- Teyla is far less annoying in this epsiode to me, and I think they are handling Weir much better.

DJFavorite
August 20th, 2004, 09:50 PM
Good moral dilemma story. The difficulty in the various decisions that had to be made. And once they felt that they made a wrong decision, or was starting to head down the wrong path, how they tried to correct themselves.


I'm just wondering if Dr. Beckett made copies of the research to continue on his own and 'perfect' the drug.

ShadowMaat
August 20th, 2004, 09:51 PM
:D No one Mourns the Wicked! Er...Steve. Steve was a bad guy that we will forever remember...with fondness...?...
Well, maybe not fondness but certainly I'm disappointed about paths not taken and opportunities left unexplored.

Steve is OBVIOUSLY no Fiyero. ;)

I'm on a major Wicked kick (as also evidenced by my sig), so I'm finding excuses to work things in anywhere. :D

Major Fischer
August 20th, 2004, 09:54 PM
Good moral dilemma story. The difficulty in the various decisions that had to be made. And once they felt that they made a wrong decision, or was starting to head down the wrong path, how they tried to correct themselves.

I think one of the ideas in this epsiode was that once they had made the first wrong decision, and it's not even clear which one was the first one (and shouldnt' be), than they really had no way of correcting it. Slipperly slope.

crazylinguist
August 20th, 2004, 09:55 PM
Well, maybe not fondness but certainly I'm disappointed about paths not taken and opportunities left unexplored.

Steve is OBVIOUSLY no Fiyero. ;)

I'm on a major Wicked kick (as also evidenced by my sig), so I'm finding excuses to work things in anywhere. :D


maybe fondness was too strong a word. :) I feel the same way you do about the missed opportunities ...And yes Wicked is lots of fun. I should go find my CD...

TheHomegaMan
August 20th, 2004, 10:03 PM
OK, here we go. All my stupidity aside. Seriously. Starting now.

I'd say this was one of the better episodes of Atlantis to date. I mean, it had something for almost everyone. Those of us who wanted more Steve got more Steve. The Beckett fans thought it was practically Christmas day. Even the one or two people who wanted more offworld and less Atlantis got what they were looking for.

I can completely understand the rather high amount of support for the resolution approving the drug. These people accomplish so much only to be smacked back centuries in their development. I remember seeing somewhere that the Wraith tend to cull something like 95% of each herd's population. Better a guaranteed 50% than 95% dying to feed the Wraith. We may not have liked the results, but it was their choice to make.

Sheppard got screwed on info from Steve, no doubt about it. Like Shadow said, he told them nothing. "All of them" could be 1 or 1 million. I'm just wondering if they'll try to bag another Wraith to see if they can get anything more out of the next one. Knowing how shows work, probably not.

Weir is having to face the music. She's finally realizing that the rules work great when there's a solid civilization to enforce them. Out in Pegasus, they're a luxury. I'd like to see an episode where she goes too far down that slippery slope and is forced to climb back on her moral high ground.

Teyla's role? I've got it! She's Jiminey Cricket!

And what are they gonna do about Steve's corpse? Yes, they've done an autopsy but are we gonna put Steve in jars? Steve on ice? Get some Athosian taxidermist to stuff Steve all Planet of the Apes style? I need closure here!

crazylinguist
August 20th, 2004, 10:15 PM
Yes this was a good one. Not too much action in it but you can't always have that. I like a good moral dilema episode anyway. It kinda reminded me of the whole Tollan thing back on SG-1. How they wouldn't give technology to people who didn't have it.(different I know but it reminded me) Perhaps the Atlantis crew will be more hesitant, helping with things like this in the future.

And Steve's corpse? Hold an big funeral service for him ...in all seriousness, they will probably study it. They couldn't pass up that chance.

ShadowMaat
August 20th, 2004, 10:26 PM
Will they leave any pieces behind for the locals to play with, maybe see if they can find a cure for their cure? ;)

crazylinguist
August 20th, 2004, 10:29 PM
Will they leave any pieces behind for the locals to play with, maybe see if they can find a cure for their cure? ;)

They might. If the silly locals even care to look for a cure. :)

Mornington
August 20th, 2004, 10:59 PM
I agree. Steve was a MUCH more interesting character than....

hmm...

Teyla. I still don't like her.

not to mention that Steve had the more convincing wig. I swear, that silly thing on Teyla's head gets worse every week. :S

Mio
August 20th, 2004, 11:31 PM
not to mention that Steve had the more convincing wig. I swear, that silly thing on Teyla's head gets worse every week. :S
I'm thinking about getting a pet and naming it Steve.

Maybe I can dye a hamster blue....

Elwe Singollo
August 20th, 2004, 11:32 PM
Hmm, this episode was practically a Teyla'less episode, without counting the small lines she had, but maybe i missed some of her scenes since someone was talking to me at the sametime.

PYRO
August 21st, 2004, 03:21 AM
Steve was the only Wraith we've experienced that isent some big guy in armor. Besides the Wraith Woman in 101. Steve was a badass with the Long hair and moustache and that stride he did...


He was my fav character.

Mio
August 21st, 2004, 03:26 AM
He was my fav character.
The characters you want to keep, they kill off, but the characters you want soooooooo much to die, they stay for the whole series.

Teal'c
August 21st, 2004, 04:15 AM
This was really good.

- Story was OK, seemed a little more interesting on paper.
- Not enough McKay :P
- Beckett was great, especially his Gate-phobia.
- Steve.... I have never laughed so hard in my life. I can now never talk to a man called Steve without laughing, I'm actually laughing right now... it's just so funny :P
- Speaking of which, I'm awaiting the Shep/Steve slash thread to start :P

It's probably my least favourite ep so far (not that that's bad or anything) but Steve definately saved it :P

IWantToBelieve
August 21st, 2004, 04:18 AM
I thought it was an excellent episode. Sheppard's interrogation scenes were the best, followed closely by Beckett's. Best line, "I was on an alien planet!" That whole scene had me ROTFL.

I disagree with comparing Shep to O'Neill. Sheppard may share the same sarcasm, but that's about all. O'Neill is a very hard character, jaded, slow to trust, and there is a hardness to him. Sheppard may have a sardonic wit, but he's also trusting and has an innocence to him that O'Neill doesn't.

The Hoffan's felt they had no choice in using the drug, but with a 50% mortality rate, they are going to do the wraith's job for them. They didn't discuss if the drug will have to be adminstered to each generation, which is kind of an important flaw in this situation. If it cost 50% for each generation, that's going to end up doing a lot of harm if the wraith don't wipe them out anyway (which I agree with Sheppard, they probably will, the wraith strike me as pretty nasty characters-go figure).

Of course, the mortality rate could probably be lowered with more time and research but the prime research doctor died from her innoculation.

Excellent growth with Beckett's character.

Interesting dilemma for Weir to face, and it was nice to see she was up to the challenge.

Shipperahoy
August 21st, 2004, 06:30 AM
I liked it. It was an interesting moral dilemna. I agree that there needed to be more McKay but that's just because I wuv him. Paul McGillion did an excellent job though. I think that he's going to be the Teryl Rothery of Atlantis. Playing a big part but only given guest star status even into the 7th year of the show. At least I hope he stays around. I like him.

And I too was disapointed that they killed off Steve. I think that they could hve done more with him. The whole naming him Steve thing made me see him more as a pet. One of the first things they tell people in labratory's doing animal testing (squick. Horrendous practice. Poor animals.) is not to name the animals because it promotes bonding. I was surprised that Shepard showed any compassion at all for Steve when he was dying after all the baiting he's done and how quick he was to run tests on him.

Anyway, I thought it was a good ep and (yay!!!) there will be Colm Meaney next week. Woo hoo!

ShadowMaat
August 21st, 2004, 06:40 AM
I was surprised that Shepard showed any compassion at all for Steve when he was dying after all the baiting he's done and how quick he was to run tests on him.
Speaking of bait, I think they should have used Bates as bait instead. :P Although now I'm curious. Bates- he WAS the guy guarding Steve, right?- said that Steve had given up trying to make him "see" things. Makes me wonder what he was seeing... and if the visions had really stopped or if Steve just got a lot more clever about what he showed him. *sigh* It all goes back to dumping off an interesting character too soon.

I still want to know the purpose of that metal finger guard.

TechnoBoY
August 21st, 2004, 07:07 AM
I liked it but I also thought it was kinda boring for some reason. Good story though.

One thing that always pisses me off is when the Earth teams need to judge everyone else. Okay so 50% of everyone will die. Well thats their choice isnt it? Shouldnt you still help them? Telling them you will never come back. Psh!

Hey and isnt that the same lady who was in The Cure in Season 6?

NurseRatched
August 21st, 2004, 07:32 AM
Enjoyed this one on quite a few levels.

First up: Beckett. Gotta love this guy. The writers gave him a story with a medical/scientific challenge, a bonnie lass to work with, some big ethical issues, and finally, loss. That's...a LOT. Props to Paul McGillion for pulling it off very well. He manages to portray an intensely passionate character without falling into the "chewing the scenery" trap. Well done.

Toning down McKay this week (although the whole rejected handshake thing was great) was appropriate. There's plenty of stuff for him to do in other eps.

I liked the fact that this episode made you think; the Hoffans have very, very strong convictions about their history, their heritage, and their fight against the Wraith. The visitors from Atlantis also want to defeat the Wraith, but there's a conflict of some important values. Should the visitors judge the Hoffans by Earth standards? Do they have that right? Important issues of self-determination arise. (Importantly, the Chancellor shows consistency, and keeps his word re: sharing the outcome of the vote, and keeping with his plan, even though the visitors disagree. More importantly, Sheppard agrees to let the Hoffans proceed, and withdraws the team.)

I wanted to smack Weir when she brought up the Geneva Convention. I'm not sure what part of "Laws and protocols from Earth aren't necessarily relevant in the Pegasus galaxy" she's not understanding.

I'll miss Steve. (rofl!) He could have been useful, or at least entertaining, for a few more weeks. They need another Wraith-in-a-box. I'm wondering what "live stuff" Sheppard was referring to when he mentioned that the only things Wraith can feed on are humans. He'd attempted to keep Steve alive; and seemed genuinely concerned when he eventually died.

I'm still ambivalent re: Teyla and (especially) Ford. The guy they have playing Stackhouse is a better actor and has a more military demeanor IMHO.

Did anyone else find Sheppard's "dinner party" reference a tad callous, as he said it in front of poor Merrill (sp?)

Perna was an obvious red shirt, but her actress did a good job.

Lots of good stuff. Well done.

HIj'Qa
August 21st, 2004, 08:28 AM
Overall, an A.

So, are the Wraith around or were they all asleep in the buried ship on Tayla's planet? They sort of hibernate in between cullings? Still confused on this. The enemy is taking too long to gel in my befuddled brain.

Shep looks unshaved, in a conference and on the planet. Looks unkempt, slightly unprofessional.

Star Trek. McCoy. Beckett. love it love it love it

Carson in love, cliché, but its Beckett so its charming, absolutely charming. Say 'slippery slope' more, please.

Explains primitivism - Wraith cyclical culling. Makes sense, but I can get tired of fur bikinis. Unless they equal opportunity fur rumble bags.

Weir, so far, so good. Administrator. Geneva Convention, etc. Making the tough decisions. One of the promos shows her kissing some guy. Eh. Not looking forward to administrator romance. Keep her in her office.

Shep Very O'Neill with Steve
Steve sounds like Tony Todd, but no

Rodney, blinking. Oh, Rodney.

Lt. Ford was Mayweatherish, but with attitude and dialogue. "Bye, Steve."

Not peaceful Earth, spoiled rotten Earth, this is what sci fi can do, and my head doesn't hurt from the hammer blow ENT would have delivered.

Ah, Beckett in love, soft music. Kiss her you fool!

But no! Here we go - Heading down the wrong road. Ethical moral dilemma.

Wraith Steve is gonna die anyway?! I thought they didn't die easily. In the pilot beckett said they don't die easy.

Oriental Chevron guy, no Grodin. Boo.

Bates, *******, again

Bullet sounding dial up threw me off at first. Hadn't noted PJ dial up being so loud previously.

Sacrifice guy too young. I would have liked Steve to go up against a little old lady. But, I suppose Steve wouldn't have fed if there was no beef, then.

Oh, plot development. Defense changes to offense. Cure as bad as disease. As many people die with the cure as would verses the Wraith. And the natives are willing to go down that road. This is good.

Holy Grail, what? How would the Chancellor know that simile!

Beckett's gonna lose Perna. Noooooo. Even though you know its gonna happen, Tayla coming in and not saying anything like "It's Perna, she's dying." Good good.

Good solid character and ethical dilemma driven episode. All of the characters were good, even this-isn't-the-way-the Wraith-work Tayla. Sheppard was just a little too smart-ass O'Neillesque. Kirk was gung-ho hero. Picard erudite. Crichton pop culture smart ass. Sheppard needs to move out of O'Neill's shadow. Are other people pitching and or writing for Atlantis?

Faith
August 21st, 2004, 09:02 AM
Could someone PM me and tell me how Steve the wraith died as I had walked outside to have a smoke and I missed that part. :(

Thanks

NurseRatched
August 21st, 2004, 10:32 AM
Could someone PM me and tell me how Steve the wraith died as I had walked outside to have a smoke and I missed that part. :(

Thanks

They gave him a pack of Marlboros.

Jwizzman
August 21st, 2004, 10:42 AM
reasonable episode...not good...not bad
steve was cool...but not even an atom of info from him! pretty useless

Major Fischer
August 21st, 2004, 10:54 AM
I wanted to smack Weir when she brought up the Geneva Convention. I'm not sure what part of "Laws and protocols from Earth aren't necessarily relevant in the Pegasus galaxy" she's not understanding.

So which laws do you suggest they not obey? Murder? Theft? War crimes? I'm just curious. Lots of subjections that 'such and such doesn't apply', and Sheppard has a point--which Weir acknowledges--that the Wraith aren't exactly parties to the Geneva Convention, but I'm serious. Societies exist on the bases of shared moral values, enforced by written laws. You ignore the laws, you ignore the values.

Faith
August 21st, 2004, 10:57 AM
They gave him a pack of Marlboros.



RolTFLMAO

keshou
August 21st, 2004, 11:06 AM
I thought the introduction of "Steve" was a brilliant move in that I'm a lot more intrigued by the wraith than I was before. I think the makeup on these "fu manchu" male wraiths is much more convincing than the Marilyn Manson female wraith in the premiere. The actor portraying "Steve" also did a good job of not playing him too over-the-top.

I liked having "Steve" around and the Shep/Steve conversations were a real highlight of the episode. I actually hoped his capture might lead to a little more of a story arc but it was still a pretty interesting episode. Maybe they'll capture another one - they can name him Freddy or something. :p

Hohenzollern
August 21st, 2004, 11:11 AM
...So, are the Wraith around or were they all asleep in the buried ship on Tayla's planet? They sort of hibernate in between cullings? Still confused on this. ...

The wraith Hive/Mother ship was landed upon a planet other than Teyla's.
They did go to Teyla's planet (through gate in the "Dart" Fighters) for small (what I call) "sustaining/snack cullings".
Once it was discovered that the wraith mothership seen in Ep 101 had lifted off, I assume it was on the loose and possibly headed for Atlantis, waking up others/reinforcements <?>.
Steve's cryptic remarks (cursed lack of info) could indicate this.
No idea if the ships <number unknown> all hibernate in unison or do they kind of do their own thing, are only loosely organized. I would think they are tightly organized (hive structure?), and all actively manage their "herds" by hibernating to conserve energy between cullings.

The queen undoubtedly shared the information of earth's population count with the others...so they are all awake and in a frenzy to get to the location of Atlantis, find our address, use the Atlantis gate to get to Earth, etc.

NurseRatched
August 21st, 2004, 12:45 PM
So which laws do you suggest they not obey? Murder? Theft? War crimes? I'm just curious. Lots of subjections that 'such and such doesn't apply', and Sheppard has a point--which Weir acknowledges--that the Wraith aren't exactly parties to the Geneva Convention, but I'm serious. Societies exist on the bases of shared moral values, enforced by written laws. You ignore the laws, you ignore the values.


You're forgetting that I said "don't necessarily apply" That's a qualified statement. Both the SGA team and the Hoffans have a shared value - that the Wraith are their enemy; it's just that their opinions on how to deal with them varied. At no point did I suggest or condone that murder/theft/war crimes/whatever would be acceptable...last week the issue of taking the ZPM from the planet in "Childhood's End" was explored, and deemed unacceptable. They could have just kept it if they had really wanted to...

Also, in "Childhood's End" Sheppard clearly stated that on Earth human life was highly valued. To extend that regard of life to a race/species/whatever that openly states that it values human life only as a food source is a tad...ridiculous. It's been made clear so far that the Wraith have no redeeming qualities whatsoever. (I'm suddenly reminded of the "Just because they're big bad nasty aliens, that doesn't mean they don't have rights" statement from "Wormhole Extreme"). Would you, Major Fischer, extend that regard to say, the creature from "Alien"? Didn't think so.

Major Fischer
August 21st, 2004, 01:06 PM
I would be more than a little disturbed if someone on the show HADN'T mentioned the Geneva Convention.

Ugly Pig
August 21st, 2004, 01:45 PM
Everyones favorite self-important barn yard animal is back!


PIGGY'S USELESS OPINION
of 'Poisoning the Well'

To be honest, I wasn't expecting much from this episode, but it turned out to be pretty decent. While McKay was absent for most of it (which probably played a big part in its relatively low humor quantity), it was very heavy on Dr. Beckett. Which was nice, as he got to play the central character for most of the episode.

Steve the Wraith (loved that!! :D) was put to good use in the story. I was wondering what they were going to do with that particular left-over plot thread from 'Suspicion', but I can't help but feel a little dissappointed that he got killed off so quickly. But I guess it wouldn't have been such a good idea story-wise to keep him around forever.

A major plus for the episode was it's dark ending. It's refreshing to see that once in a while, our heroes don't succeed in getting the folks they meet to see things their way. While I doubt it will happen, I hope we do get to see the aftermath of the people's decision.

And now, once again, to wait for next week... For which the previews look very promising.

Grumpyguy
August 21st, 2004, 04:01 PM
I guess I'm in the minority here. The team becomes awful preachy at the end. These people have been decimated for 100s of centuries. This is their first chance to be able to fight the Wraith.

Now the questions, which should have received more attention are this:
1. When the wraith do reach Hoff and find not only can't they feed, but they die as well, what will they do?
2. What kind of offensive weapons do the Wraith have? Would they decimate the surface of the planet with nuclear weapons for instance?
3. Do the Wraith travel the Pegagsus galaxy by Stargate or do they have instellar drive abilities, or do they sleep for years and years as they travel at light speed from one star system to another.

I can understand the team warning the Hoff's of the possible pitfalls of the drug, and even saying that they wouldn't help develop a drug that kills at a 50% rate, but on the other hand, I would have thought they would have admired the Hoff's bravery and understood their motivation.

Plus, let's say one of SGA's teams is stuck on a world and about to be overrun by Wraiths. Wouldn't you at least like to have the option of injecting this drug in an emergency?

Finally, shouldn't there be a computer on Atlantis that could scan this Wraith repelent serum and modify it so that it works 100%? This wasn't even addressed. They are on an Ancient city-state/spaceship, right? : )

So far, SGA has disappointed me, just a little. The writing needs to be tightened up, to0 many plot holes. This just shouldn't be happening on a show that has 7 years of experience to draw from.

TheHomegaMan
August 21st, 2004, 04:27 PM
I guess I'm in the minority here. The team becomes awful preachy at the end. These people have been decimated for 100s of centuries. This is their first chance to be able to fight the Wraith.

Now the questions, which should have received more attention are this:
1. When the wraith do reach Hoff and find not only can't they feed, but they die as well, what will they do?
2. What kind of offensive weapons do the Wraith have? Would they decimate the surface of the planet with nuclear weapons for instance?
3. Do the Wraith travel the Pegagsus galaxy by Stargate or do they have instellar drive abilities, or do they sleep for years and years as they travel at light speed from one star system to another.

I can understand the team warning the Hoff's of the possible pitfalls of the drug, and even saying that they wouldn't help develop a drug that kills at a 50% rate, but on the other hand, I would have thought they would have admired the Hoff's bravery and understood their motivation.

Plus, let's say one of SGA's teams is stuck on a world and about to be overrun by Wraiths. Wouldn't you at least like to have the option of injecting this drug in an emergency?

Finally, shouldn't there be a computer on Atlantis that could scan this Wraith repelent serum and modify it so that it works 100%? This wasn't even addressed. They are on an Ancient city-state/spaceship, right? : )

So far, SGA has disappointed me, just a little. The writing needs to be tightened up, to0 many plot holes. This just shouldn't be happening on a show that has 7 years of experience to draw from.

There's a difference between plot holes and not doing what you would have done.

Based on what we saw during the attack on Athos in "Rising", we know that Darts are equipped with some kind of destructive weaponry. Tents were blowing up like mad during that sequence. My guess is that a massive force of Darts would come sweeping in and raze Hoff to the ground. That's probably what they do during cullings anyway, but now that have more motivation to do so.

Frankly, I'd be pretty disappointed if they put the formula into some computer and were handed a perfect version. Its too deus ex machina for me. We don't know that the Atlantis computers are perfect, or even if we know how to use them. Other thank thinking about things in the jumpers or pushing the buttons on the Atlantis DHD interface, the people have been using laptops.

Finally, while Atlantis has had 7 years of experience to draw from they are still going in a different direction. If they were off fighting the Goa'uld then I'd tend to agree with you. As it stands, though, really aren't drawing too much on SG-1 beyond having 2 minor characters in SG-1 as stars, having a Stargate, and including the Ancients. It was only in Seasons 6 and 7 that the Ancients became a central focus to the show.

ShadowMaat
August 21st, 2004, 04:28 PM
Now the questions, which should have received more attention are this:
1. When the wraith do reach Hoff and find not only can't they feed, but they die as well, what will they do?
2. What kind of offensive weapons do the Wraith have? Would they decimate the surface of the planet with nuclear weapons for instance?
My guess is, they attack from space. Either from a planet-killer weapon, generic bombs/energy weapons or possibly that plague that wiped out the Ancients.





3. Do the Wraith travel the Pegagsus galaxy by Stargate or do they have instellar drive abilities, or do they sleep for years and years as they travel at light speed from one star system to another.
Well, the ship we saw in Rising was definitely too big to fit through a stargate, so they must have interstellar drives of some type or other. Or bigger gates. :D






Finally, shouldn't there be a computer on Atlantis that could scan this Wraith repelent serum and modify it so that it works 100%? This wasn't even addressed. They are on an Ancient city-state/spaceship, right? : )
Computers/simulations can't predict EVERYTHING. If they could, they would have known about the 50% mortality rate before the drug was ever injected. There've probably been dozens of instances where simulations failed to take the full measure of something. Look at 48 Hours. Feedback raced through the cables and caused the DHD to explode and a surge electrocuted Carter. "That never happened in the simulations," Daniel said. ;) Avatar, without getting too spoilery, also had some unexpected "side effects".

Besides, computers able to predict everything or fix every little problem would be boring. :P Let them suffer and learn from their mistakes and strive to try harder the NEXT time...





The writing needs to be tightened up, to0 many plot holes. This just shouldn't be happening on a show that has 7 years of experience to draw from.
New show, new rules. Cut 'em some slack. It's only the first handful of eps and they can't solve everything COMPLETELY and happily every single week, there have to be gray areas and unanswered questions to which the team/show can return at a later point. Just because the creative team is good for ONE show doesn't mean the same team will be good for ALL shows or that they'll all start off perfectly perfect in every way.

SG-1 had its share of rough patches in the first season (and throughout the show, really), it's only natural that SGA would run into hiccups as well. The question is, what will TPTB do about it?? Ignore it and cross their fingers? Or work to rectify it at a later date? Stay tuned to find out... :P

Major Fischer
August 21st, 2004, 04:40 PM
Computers/simulations can't predict EVERYTHING. If they could, they would have known about the 50% mortality rate before the drug was ever injected. There've probably been dozens of instances where simulations failed to take the full measure of something. Look at 48 Hours. Feedback raced through the cables and caused the DHD to explode and a surge electrocuted Carter. "That never happened in the simulations," Daniel said. ;) Avatar, without getting too spoilery, also had some unexpected "side effects".

In fact, computers often cause more problems than they help. There is a story that i heard on NPR--so I'm hoping it's not urban legend--that the makers of the Lord of the Rings movies had insisted that each little guy in the massive battle simulations "be fighting for himself" and "be realistic as possible." So the programers programed each little guy to fight for his own survival, and ran the sims... and the armies kept running away. Enmass. They had to alter the program to actually get them to fight. ;)

More over, medical research isn't nearly as fast as that. The Atlantis team was able to speed up the Hoffin's research because they looked to be somewhere about the 1940s in technology level, but we dont' get instant answers today. My father is a biophysicist and he's been working on AIDS drugs since 1984 for one of the top drug companies in the world. He told me a story once that they had spent millions of dollars, and years of research, ran simulations and lab work on this one drug. Everything said it should be a miracle....

... when they went to do human trials it worked on one person, for two weeks. And than it stopped. Total bust. He was telling me the story several years--maybe as much as a decade--after the fact, because it was highly confidential when it first happened, but he wanted me to understand why AIDS drugs were so hard to develope. I think the lesson I took away was that basic research, even the most promising, can crash and burn when you move to the next level.

Ugly Pig
August 21st, 2004, 05:09 PM
There is a story that i heard on NPR--so I'm hoping it's not urban legend--that the makers of the Lord of the Rings movies had insisted that each little guy in the massive battle simulations "be fighting for himself" and "be realistic as possible." So the programers programed each little guy to fight for his own survival, and ran the sims... and the armies kept running away.
That's a true story and no urban myth. They talked about it on some behind-the-scenes thing on one of the LOTR DVDs, but with the billions of featurettes on those DVDs I can't remember which one it was. :)

Major Fischer
August 21st, 2004, 05:19 PM
I thought so ;) But the point being, just because we can help someone behind us, doesn't nessecarily mean we can solve the problem instantly. Especially given that I haven't seen much evidence that the Atlantis team has access to the city's computers. If the city has computers.

gange57
August 21st, 2004, 07:52 PM
After watching "Affinity," I found this episode to be such a relief. Not much action, but a good episode that dealt with ethics and morality. Is it just me, or does it seem that ethics and morality were checked at the door (or, rather the gate) when the SGA crew stepped foot on Atlantis? Thus far, some of the SGA crew seems quite willing to cast aside ethics if it benefits Atlantis. I loved Beckett in this episode, and I also think Weir and Teyla are beginning to find their niche. My only problem is when will we see Ford shine? Oh well, maybe in a future episode. But Steve? Absolutely hilarious.

Shep: I don't even know your name.
Wraith: I am your death.
Shep: I think I prefer Steve.

LOL!

NightGloom
August 21st, 2004, 08:55 PM
*sniff* Please do not remind me of Steve, I am still in mourning. :(

Teyla still annoys me. I say take her and bring Steve back, then Steve could become REALLY like Teal'c. Ya know, and old "bad guy" helping out the "good guys" But I don't think that Steve would have given up his awesome leather jacket for the regular old Atlantis civillian gear. I still like Weir better, although I think she's still kinda shifting from side to side a little.

Cydonia
August 21st, 2004, 10:10 PM
It was very interesting to me to see how Sheppard's perception of the Wraith seemed to shift just a little as soon as he named him. One of you mentioned something about naming animals in testing labs... so true. We give something a human quality - even just a name - and begin to attribute other human qualities to it as well. Sheppard was actually concerned about him when he was dying.

Someone else asked about the metal things on the wraiths hands... I think they administer the chemical that allows them to drain life forces, kind of like a fingertip hypodermic.

Ummm... what else? Oh yeah, it was mentioned that 96% support seemed unrealistic and WWII mentioned as an example. Problem is that example doesn't really fit. In WWII the average American didn't really feel the threat of Hitler - it was on the other side of the world, what did we have to worry about? So we were slow to care about another culture being wiped from the face of the planet. Once America was directly attacked, we were in it 100%. Not too difficult to believe nearly 100% of Hoffans would want the drug as it the Wraith directly affected *them* not some distant group of people.

I think the Hoffans were stupid not to give more consideration to Wraith retaliation once the Wraith discovered the effects of the drug. Sheppard's probably right - they won't exist after the Wraith find out the human's have discovered weakness.

I did not like the fact that Parna was killed off. I think it would have been an interesting dilemma for Beckett to be attracted to someone whose values are so completely opposite of his and see how he coped with that. It would also put a dent in his fear of gate travel. BTW - this is the 2nd Star Trek reference directly involving Beckett. Think he's a fan?

Overall I haven't seen a character I don't like in Atlantis, except Bates. Interesting to note that Bates always seems to have a scowl on his face and tries to look menacing... seems to come off as constipated, though. Teyla is a bit dramatic, but her character is around I think to act as a guide to worlds the Athosians have traded with in the past. I've like Weir and Ford from the beginning and McKay is one of my favorites.

Raised a few more questions than answered though... they tried other life forms to feed Steve, but what and where did they get them? And did it not work because it wasn't human, or because Steve wasn't hungry enough yet to break down and feed on something non-human? It would certainly knock some of the wind out of the Wraith if it was discovered they could feed on other forms but chose humans because they were more satisfying and Steve would most likely attempt to protect that image. Or it could just be late and I'm off on a weird tangent. :rolleyes:

Oh yeah, someone else asked how Steve died... not sure if it's a "spoiler" so better safe than yelled at... The serum meant to prevent the chemical from working that allows the Wraith to feed entered into Steve and mutated, poisoning him and causing all of his internal organs to shut down. It appeared to be a very painful death.

TheHomegaMan
August 21st, 2004, 10:58 PM
I thought so ;) But the point being, just because we can help someone behind us, doesn't nessecarily mean we can solve the problem instantly. Especially given that I haven't seen much evidence that the Atlantis team has access to the city's computers. If the city has computers.

The city has computers. We brought them with us! Remember the Dells with the nice Atlantis stickers? Oh yeah, now that's the technology of the Ancients. :p

Supreme Commander Thor
August 21st, 2004, 11:02 PM
Hey and isnt that the same lady who was in The Cure in Season 6?
Yep. It was

Atlantis'Might
August 22nd, 2004, 09:08 AM
I only have one problem with this episode. I find the speed at which the whole world committed to taking the drug implausible

True, from OUR perspective. When WE think of getting the WHOLE CIVILIZATION to vote, we are talking about 5-6 billing people. They never mentioned HOW MANY total people voted or how large their population had grown since the last culling.

If they had only been around for say 100 years, it is doubtful they had grown beyond the size of a large city. Plus, the vote didn't take very long to execute which supports the fact that there weren't many of them to survey.

Also, as another member said. Their whole society built on and was devoted to the successful development and execution of this serum. They were very committed.

Liv
August 22nd, 2004, 10:36 AM
This might just be my favorite episode after Rising. Good to see Beckett take center stage and get out of the infirmary. (Although, he ends up in another one, but still...)

Loved all the scenes with Sheppard and Steve the Wraith (who has already reached legendary status, it would seem). "I am your death, that is all you need to know." ... "I prefer Steve." Too funny. I don't really get all the comparisons to O'Neill though, regarding Sheppard. Sure, he's witty and sarcastic, but I think Flanigan has put a whole other spin on the character and I have not once found myself thinking that RDA would say it this way or that way.

Really liked the fact that there was no happy ending and that it was all left sort of 'out in the open'. I'm thinking they´re gonna revisit this plot again, some day.

Ugly Pig
August 22nd, 2004, 01:02 PM
One question about Sheppard's last line of the episode: What was it?

Beckett: Victory at all cost. That sound familiar, major?
Sheppard: (mumbles)
Beckett: Aye. Never thought I'd disagree.

I've rewatched that part a bunch of times, but I can't decipher his line! Help, anyone? :S

Liv
August 22nd, 2004, 01:04 PM
One question about Sheppard's last line of the episode: What was it?

Beckett: Victory at all cost. That sound familiar, major?
Sheppard: (mumbles)
Beckett: Aye. Never thought I'd disagree.

I've rewatched that part a bunch of times, but I can't decipher his line! Help, anyone? :S
I think it was Churchill. I had a difficult time making it out myself, but I'm pretty sure that's it.

Ugly Pig
August 22nd, 2004, 01:06 PM
Ahhhh. The only thing I could make out of it was "trick show", but I didn't think that made much sense. Thanks. :)

NurseRatched
August 22nd, 2004, 02:15 PM
It's definitely "Churchill". Notice how Beckett, a citizen of the United Kingdom, says how he never imagined ever disagreeing with it (with its WWII/Earth implications)...

gwangung
August 22nd, 2004, 06:50 PM
So, folks.....

Do we or do we not have a REALLY effective anti-Wraith weapon? And how effective is it? And in what scenarios would it be best used?

ShadowMaat
August 22nd, 2004, 06:53 PM
Might be an alternative to cyanide pills. ;) Sounds like it's a more painful way to go, but not as bad as being Wraith food.

Major Fischer
August 22nd, 2004, 06:55 PM
So, folks.....

Do we or do we not have a REALLY effective anti-Wraith weapon? And how effective is it? And in what scenarios would it be best used?

As it is currently constituted, and for the Atlantis team, the only way that it could be used ethically would be as a 'last ditch' thing. If you KNOW that you are going to be captured by the Wraith, you take it, and pray that the way they chose to kill you when they find out what's in your system is faster than what the feeding might do, or what the drug might do.

Summerfield
August 22nd, 2004, 08:26 PM
No, the Wraith were not attacking at that moment. Kits could have been issued with instructions to take in case of attack with warnings that testing would continue and the serum may be replaced, so keep up with the news.
Now, there's a good idea!


Teyla's role? I've got it! She's Jiminey Cricket!
Does that mean she'll get squished? :)

One cliche, from both SG-1 and Atlantis, that I begin to hate is that any culture not "primative" seems to be Victorian.

And after "Childhood's End"
and the big deal about respecting local religious sacrifices
it seemed odd that they were so adamant that the Hoffan government respect our values. I saw their point of view, but I also saw the Hoffans'.

Last point: Dr. Weir had a Terra Cotta Soldier miniature and South American native-looking pot in her office. Personal items or was there an Interior Decorating Alowance in the mission planing?

Joe Chen
August 22nd, 2004, 08:32 PM
Develop a gaseous/powered version of the serum, put it in a delivery system, and when they find hive ships, feed it through the venting system. It looked kinda red, so we can call it red dust. Oh wait, we did that in V. :D So glad the full series is out on dvd now but that's off topic.

However, I'm curious if they would have explored the possibility of salt-water types of attacks for effectiveness against wraith since it had some effectiveness on the bug on Shepherd's neck that seemed to be a distant relative. Sure, might be hard to capture wraith, but it might be easier to collect a bunch of those slug things and work on those for a while as well. Just a thought.

Overall, I found the episode decent, ethics and morality, etc. I'm kinda bothered that the ancients never found a way to counter the wraith life sucking with their advanced biotech. Watch out, I'll predict that in season 5 of SGA, we'll find sneezing on wraith is the miracle weapon, and they'll stop bothering us when someone gets SARS. :D

Major Fischer
August 22nd, 2004, 08:50 PM
Last point: Dr. Weir had a Terra Cotta Soldier miniature and South American native-looking pot in her office. Personal items or was there an Interior Decorating Alowance in the mission planing?

Could be. Could have been that they are part of a representation of traditional earth cultures, which is my guess, but i don't think we'll know.

ShadowMaat
August 22nd, 2004, 08:53 PM
Gifts from a lovestruck Daniel who smuggled them into the team's supplies. ;)

Or maybe they're actually Ancient trinkets. :D

TheHomegaMan
August 22nd, 2004, 09:45 PM
I can't wait till we see the giant Tiki man that Weir's hiding in her office. That and stuffed Steve would rock!

gwangung
August 23rd, 2004, 12:07 AM
After thinking about it a bit, I'm not sure if this will ever be issued as a last ditch measure; not well tested enough and they'd probably want to tinker with it more before they issue it to the field.

As for it being an offensive weapon...it may not do the Atlantis team any good. It's not particularly fast acting....it'd work best as a booby trap.....

aschen
August 23rd, 2004, 06:15 AM
Steve puts a nice twist on the Wraith. :D

Great ep tho. A lot better than 38 miins where I actually fell asleep.

nugglebugget
August 23rd, 2004, 07:32 AM
Steve?!

Oh come on, he was a "Vince" if anything.You know,short for "Vincent",...as in "Vincent Price".....??:rolleyes:
Oh well,it was still funny.I too,shall never be able to hear that name[Steve]& not think of SGA's pet Wraith with the totally "rad" leather jacket.He was too cool for words IMO.I knew it when he gave his 1st evil glare in the series opener..

spoiler space "Rising" pt 1 or 2[can't remember]

*

*

*

*

*

*

*
When he came into the cell to retrieve a prisoner[a.k.a the appetizer] & "Sumner" stepped up in his face."Steve's" expession was like[to me anyway:rolleyes: ]..."[email protected]#^!! I thought we were having home-made lasagna!What do we get?...Leftover fish sticks!....I hate fish sticks!!!

aschen
August 23rd, 2004, 07:43 AM
[QUOTE=nugglebugget]Steve?!

Oh come on, he was a "Vince" if anything.You know,short for "Vincent",...as in "Vincent Price".....??:rolleyes:
[QUOTE]

Good point...he DID remind me a little bit of John Travolta in "Pulp Fiction..."

nugglebugget
August 23rd, 2004, 07:52 AM
I just thought of something concerning the desired effect of the drug.

The SGA team was bothered by the fact that it killed the "Wraith".The argument being that the Wraith would wipe the people out in retaliation.Ok,but the drug,if it worked properly would have eventually starved them to death.Dead Wraith either way.
Even if they could,in fact,feed on other life forms[unclear],it's been pretty much established that "humans" are their 1st choice.You deny someone their fave[or only]choice in sustanence,it tends to tick them off a bit.

To sum it up,it would've made "humans" useless to them.The fact that they were smart enough to come up with it makes them a threat.The Wraith could figure "we're gonna starve to death,or at least be reduced to feeding on lesser choice pickings....let's wipe them out first".I think there'd be a retaliatory massacre anyway.

Major Fischer
August 23rd, 2004, 10:08 AM
One thing that I just started thinking about on a second viewing of this episode:

Why take Steve to his 'meal' that obviously amounts to a dangerous prisoner transfer, when they could have just as easily have brought the patient (and some of the docs) to Atlantis to do the test. Seems to me like a silly risk.

TheHomegaMan
August 23rd, 2004, 12:56 PM
My gut reaction would be to keep the location of Atlantis a secret. The fewer the societies that know where it is, the less likely the Wraith will take cull a herd that A) knows Atlantis's address and B) knows that the humans are operating out of Atlantis. Well, that or they wanted to see Steve smiling as he was put in the Jumper.

prion
August 23rd, 2004, 01:12 PM
"How many Hive ships are activated?"

"All of them."

That's not really an answer. How many is ALL? Two? Three? Three hundred? I'm surprised they let him get away with such a vague answer.

The only reason to ask the question was to lure Steve into dinining on Merrell. Does anybody believe that "Steve" would have given them an honest accounting of just how many ships there were? Nope, but I agree, it wasn't the best questions, and the writers could have thought of something else to ask, but oh well.

prion
August 23rd, 2004, 01:14 PM
One question about Sheppard's last line of the episode: What was it?

Beckett: Victory at all cost. That sound familiar, major?
Sheppard: (mumbles)
Beckett: Aye. Never thought I'd disagree.

I've rewatched that part a bunch of times, but I can't decipher his line! Help, anyone? :S

Churchill. From his famous June 1940 speech. Me thinks I'm the only one who's ever watched PBS :D

Basically, what the Hoffans had was a pyrric victory. Sure, they'll be immune to the Wraith, but the Wraith will wipe 'em all out. Hence, the title, poisoning the well (which doesn't need explaining). er, right?

prion
August 23rd, 2004, 01:17 PM
- Steve. I just wish that more people had taken to calling him that. It was really amusing to me for some reason. Sometimes Sheppard feels a little too Jack-like to me, but this was a line I couldn't have seen Jack saying.


Ah, didn't Sheppard know you just don't name whatever you're leading to slaughter? Then you get attached to them... :p

Sheppard, like Jack, is in the irreverant leader mode from whoever does casting. Been enjoying that typecasting for ages on TV :D Although I couldn't see Jack naming the Wraith, not really. Shooting it, maybe....

ShadowMaat
August 23rd, 2004, 01:39 PM
My gut reaction would be to keep the location of Atlantis a secret. The fewer the societies that know where it is, the less likely the Wraith will take cull a herd that A) knows Atlantis's address and B) knows that the humans are operating out of Atlantis. Well, that or they wanted to see Steve smiling as he was put in the Jumper.
I don't buy that. Unless the Hoffans have some innate innerborn ability to be able to sense exactly where they are in the grand cosmos, being transported from the stargate (where it'd be very easy to blindfold him so he couldn't see the gate coordinates) to the inside of a large building doesn't tell you anything at all about WHERE that building is. It could be on the other side of the same planet, for all he'd know. Heck, it could be the next building over. You just can't tell.

I'd be more concerned about Steve getting too much info. We don't know what Wraith abilities are like, yet. We don't know if he has homing/tracking beacons activated. They check for the obvious things, but what if he has some kind of internal beacon letting Mom know where he is or which could record all kinds of peripheral information?

Which do YOU think is more dangerous? Letting a sick and dying man who belongs to a friendly/possibly allied world into Atlantis? Or taking a dangerous known enemy who seeks only the death of every living human out of his energy-shielded cage and hoping your teams reflexes are fast enough to stop him if he tries to escape?

Major Fischer
August 23rd, 2004, 01:48 PM
My gut reaction would be to keep the location of Atlantis a secret. The fewer the societies that know where it is, the less likely the Wraith will take cull a herd that A) knows Atlantis's address and B) knows that the humans are operating out of Atlantis. Well, that or they wanted to see Steve smiling as he was put in the Jumper.

But the other civilization could see the Atlantis team dial out... it's not like you can keep that secret...

TheHomegaMan
August 23rd, 2004, 01:54 PM
First, to Shadow. I'm not talking about the Hoffans having a sense of where they are. I'm talking about them knowing the symbols that lead to Atlantis. If they see them, then the Wraith could extract that information during interrogation. You can bet they'd interrogate the people who have developed the drug, if nothing else than to find out who helped them and where they came from.

Fischer, look at the gate. When a wormhole is established on the Pegasus gates, (incoming and outgoing) all the glyphs light up. That being said, the Hoffans could look at the DHD, like in Rising.

Major Fischer
August 23rd, 2004, 01:55 PM
Which do YOU think is more dangerous? Letting a sick and dying man who belongs to a friendly/possibly allied world into Atlantis? Or taking a dangerous known enemy who seeks only the death of every living human out of his energy-shielded cage and hoping your teams reflexes are fast enough to stop him if he tries to escape?

Exactly my point, especially in light of the fact that the Hoffin's seemed to use a little metal cage. After all, we don't know all that much about Wraith's abilities to escape from such a cage without the Ancient's powers.

TheHomegaMan
August 23rd, 2004, 02:23 PM
I'm willing to bet that Steve-O wasn't doing so hot after so long without feeding. Also, don't forget that they had a Wraith stunner trained on him the entire time. Besides, wasn't it great watching Steve grin the entire time as Ford told him this wasn't a field trip? C'mon, I know you guys liked it....

Summerfield
August 23rd, 2004, 08:03 PM
- Speaking of which, I'm awaiting the Shep/Steve slash thread to start :P
Not quite a thread (or on this site) but I have already found:
Outside (http://www.fanfiction.net/s/2023527/1/).

Faith
August 23rd, 2004, 08:50 PM
That library had to be cgi...What do you guys think or was it obvious? or am I totaly wrong?

ShadowMaat
August 23rd, 2004, 09:02 PM
Definitely CGI. I'm still waiting to find out how they did Steve's eyes. Either they tossed money on CGI or they tossed money on d*** good FX lenses. Or a fake head. ;)

GhostPoet
August 24th, 2004, 11:37 AM
So far i've loved evety ep. Tho I thnk this is a fav of mine.
I found the characters interaction much better...and I found the alien peoples choices very believable.

prion
August 24th, 2004, 11:56 AM
So which laws do you suggest they not obey? Murder? Theft? War crimes? I'm just curious. Lots of subjections that 'such and such doesn't apply', and Sheppard has a point--which Weir acknowledges--that the Wraith aren't exactly parties to the Geneva Convention, but I'm serious. Societies exist on the bases of shared moral values, enforced by written laws. You ignore the laws, you ignore the values.

Precisely. Weir was correct to bring up the Geneva Convention. Sure, nobody in the pegasus galaxy knows a thing about it, but just because we're not at home doesn't mean we don't follow the codes of our own society. Otherwise we're just as good (or bad) as the folks we're using for experiments (and by the way, the Geneva Convention does cover aliens - although they didn't mean those with blue skin)....

prion
August 24th, 2004, 11:56 AM
Definitely CGI. I'm still waiting to find out how they did Steve's eyes. Either they tossed money on CGI or they tossed money on d*** good FX lenses. Or a fake head. ;)

Contacts. You can buy these things anywhere. No joke. I've seen ads. And those are NOT the wildest contacts you can get either.

greytop
August 24th, 2004, 06:03 PM
Star Trek. McCoy. Beckett. love it love it love it

I had to lol at the mention of the Beckett being similiar to McCoy, but he, Beckett, being the real thing.

Tok'Ra Hostess
August 25th, 2004, 06:33 AM
Yes!

Now this is what I call science fiction! :)

I throughly enjoyed this ep. I loved the conviction coming from both sides of the arguement. That scene with (female guest star) and Carson, about how Earth was not at all a peaceful place, gave great insight into how a common cause can unite a whole society. The Hoof(? Can that be right? The sound on my squinty vision is just horrible. :( ) are such a passionate people that it's probably a good thing that they have the Wraith, otherwise they'd probably be just like us - blowing each other's brains out at the slightest provocation. :rolleyes:

I loved how Sheppard handled "Steve" and how the ep ended with no clear resolution.

I did wonder why they took such a huge risk with "Steve" by transporting him to the guest planet instead of bringing the culture-of-the-week to Atlantis.

And, yes, I cried. Bawled my eyes out, actually. Carson is terrific, natural, and oh, so very huggable when he's sad.

Kudos to the PTB and cast and crew! :)

Tok'Ra Hostess
August 25th, 2004, 07:59 AM
Precisely. Weir was correct to bring up the Geneva Convention. Sure, nobody in the pegasus galaxy knows a thing about it, but just because we're not at home doesn't mean we don't follow the codes of our own society. Otherwise we're just as good (or bad) as the folks we're using for experiments (and by the way, the Geneva Convention does cover aliens - although they didn't mean those with blue skin)....

<nods> Just because Pegasus doesn't fall under the protection of the Geneva Convention doesn't mean Weir should ignore the principles and values of its civilizing influence. The GC has been called "the cornerstone of modern humanitarian law;" to ignore it is to ignore one's own humanity, and do we really want to be losing our humanity just because we're in a different galaxy? Isn't that the slippery slope the Nazis went down with their sterilisations, killing off the old, infirm, ethnic cleansing, medical experimentation on prisoners, etc.

This whole arguement puts me in mind of the child slave-labor and prostitution situation on Earth: their best customers are those men who come from countries that ban such practices. :(

Major Fischer
August 25th, 2004, 01:42 PM
<nods> Just because Pegasus doesn't fall under the protection of the Geneva Convention doesn't mean Weir should ignore the principles and values of its civilizing influence. The GC has been called "the cornerstone of modern humanitarian law;" to ignore it is to ignore one's own humanity, and do we really want to be losing our humanity just because we're in a different galaxy? Isn't that the slippery slope the Nazis went down with their sterilisations, killing off the old, infirm, ethnic cleansing, medical experimentation on prisoners, etc.

The fact that there are so many people on the boards who think Weir is somehow weak or stupid for even bringing up the subject disturbs me no end. When did the Geneva Convention become a controversal thing? Hammond and O'Neill make those same arguments about Teal'c in The Enemy Within in SG1. Maybe with a slightly different take, but at that point they are indeed the same arguments.

TheHomegaMan
August 25th, 2004, 01:58 PM
The fact that there are so many people on the boards who think Weir is somehow weak or stupid for even bringing up the subject disturbs me no end. When did the Geneva Convention become a controversal thing? Hammond and O'Neill make those same arguments about Teal'c in The Enemy Within in SG1. Maybe with a slightly different take, but at that point they are indeed the same arguments.

I'll take this one. There is a major difference between Teal'c and Steve. Teal'c is perfectly capable of surviving and functioning, as we saw. Steve, on the other hand, depended solely on humans for sustenance, which we were rightly unwilling to provide. Since Steve's death was assured through his unwillingness to consume other life, we decided to give his death a purpose. Yes, the Genva Convention bans such practices.

However, the Geneva Convention was entered into between many nations of a single species on a single planet. Somehow, it seems obsolete in light of the "realities" of the Pegasus galaxy. The Wraith live to feed upon intelligent life, which they view as cattle. The GC was entered into more or less among equals. The main deal with the Geneva Convention was the so many agreed to it. Sure, we could have extended it to Steve. Then when the Wraith arrived there would be an untested drug and a bunch of people on the high moral ground as their society was destroyed. Long and short of it, the GC was not meant to stand as a be-all end-all of prisoner treatment, especially among different species on different planets in a different galaxy. Weir is learning to go beyond the simple black and white mode of thinking and learning to adapt to a completely unique situation.

Major Fischer
August 25th, 2004, 03:35 PM
There is a fact that seems to be ignored though. Weir mentions the Geneva Convention. She doesn't say they can't do it because of the Geneva Convention. She doesn't extend those protections to Steve. She mentions it. That's it. And within minutes of mentioning it gives permission to do what they need to do to survive in the Pegesus Galaxy.

In The Enemy Within, Colonel Kennedy isn't talking so much about running tests on Teal'c, as running tests on Junior. Junior wasn't capable of surviving without living off a host body. Sam and Daniel later in the season also have a discussion about the ethics of taking prim'tah to experiment on. I see a double standard in fan reaction.

I would be more disturbed if a representative of my civilization went off to an unexplored land and ignored the conventions of my society without even a second thought. That would show, to me, a lack of character.

vfxsoup
August 25th, 2004, 04:10 PM
Yep, Library was CGI...

Mark Breakspear
Visual Effects Supervisor
Atlantis

TheHomegaMan
August 25th, 2004, 04:17 PM
There is a fact that seems to be ignored though. Weir mentions the Geneva Convention. She doesn't say they can't do it because of the Geneva Convention. She doesn't extend those protections to Steve. She mentions it. That's it. And within minutes of mentioning it gives permission to do what they need to do to survive in the Pegesus Galaxy.

In The Enemy Within, Colonel Kennedy isn't talking so much about running tests on Teal'c, as running tests on Junior. Junior wasn't capable of surviving without living off a host body. Sam and Daniel later in the season also have a discussion about the ethics of taking prim'tah to experiment on. I see a double standard in fan reaction.

I would be more disturbed if a representative of my civilization went off to an unexplored land and ignored the conventions of my society without even a second thought. That would show, to me, a lack of character.

OK, I think I have a sense of where you're coming from now. At first, taking Teal'c's prim'tah was a problem- he needed it to survive. Now that he's on tretonin, I say we grab a prim'tah or few to do some tests. That being said, this is after years of SG-1. Atlantis may find some dead Wraith to experiment on. It's too early to tell.

Weir is giving mention to the GC. This is good, yes, but she can't expect it to rule her every action. She's given it some thought, and decided that is a situational concern to be dealt with accordingly.

Major Fischer
August 25th, 2004, 09:21 PM
Weir is giving mention to the GC. This is good, yes, but she can't expect it to rule her every action. She's given it some thought, and decided that is a situational concern to be dealt with accordingly.

:D That's exactly where I was coming from. it just disturbs me that a number of people have implied in other threads that she's a weak leader because she thought about the implications of the GC. I think that may well be less to do with her actions now than the general Weir bashing that some people seem to be very intent on.

The character is far from perfect, and far from perfectly written yet (McKay is the only one I'd say is perfectly written so far), but I really do take issue with the implication on some people's part, that the mention of the Geneva Convention is some sign of her lack of intelligence or understanding of their situation.

greytop
August 26th, 2004, 12:18 PM
Protein? Could it be similiar to one in Sam's blood. Too bad we cain't sent the sample of it back to SGC to find out. They would probably find out in a jiffy. If it was it would be :cool: .

prion
August 26th, 2004, 01:16 PM
Contacts. You can buy these things anywhere. No joke. I've seen ads. And those are NOT the wildest contacts you can get either.

Oh, and hey, here's a good URL with loads of pretty pictures of whacko contacts. You, too, can have Wraith eyes! :eek:

http://teethworld.com/display-department_143_0_english_makeup.html

ShadowMaat
August 26th, 2004, 01:23 PM
Contacts. You can buy these things anywhere. No joke. I've seen ads. And those are NOT the wildest contacts you can get either.
Yes, but the FX lenses generally available or used on shows usually don't stay so well aligned.

Look at that Evil Dude from the Enterprise finale. His pupils were slitted, straight up and down... but in some scenes, his pupils were slanted- or ONE would be slanted and the other would be fine. Point is, they were a little off. But in all the close-ups I can remember of Steve's eyes, his pupils stayed straight up and down and remained aligned that way whenever I noticed them. Since the contact lenses I'm familiar with don't do that, I wondered if they were, in fact, lenses or if the effect was accomplished by some other means. I've been told you can get lenses specially "weighted" so that they stay aligned properly, but I've only ever heard it was possible, I don't think I've ever actually seen any.

Hohenzollern
August 27th, 2004, 07:35 PM
I thought the uniforms of the ubiquitous guards in episode 107, looked to be the same as the ones worn or <will> be worn in episode 108.

At least the same service caps. I am aware of the need to keep production costs down, but I would think the viewers might enjoy more variety or differing costume designs.

When seeing the teasers for 108, I thought it might be a continuation of 107, or be the same culture. This is not the case, obviously.

However...as the Genii <sp?> in 108 were part of a Federation of worlds, perhaps we can say the culture in 107 were part of that...and the uniform designs carried down through the ages. Unlikely; but could work.

http://www.gateworld.net/atlantis/s1/graphics/107_10.shtml

zats
August 27th, 2004, 08:36 PM
I really liked this episode. It was sad, yes, but powerful. Beckett was awesome (and not just because he sounds like Billy Boyd!); it definitely brought a new dimension to his character. It made him more human instead of the "You don't understand, I break things like this!" doctor from Rising.

My main bone to pick with this episode was that I spent most of it wanting to smack Chancellor Druhin upside the head with a two-by-four...but then I guess that was intentional on the part of the writers. If so, they did a fantastic job.

All in all, a good ep. Not quite of the "happy moments" type, but good nonetheless.

Still doesn't beat Jack bicycling through the SGC, though.

Tok'Ra Hostess
August 28th, 2004, 09:23 AM
[QUOTE=Hohenzollern]I thought the uniforms of the ubiquitous guards in episode 107, looked to be the same as the ones worn or <will> be worn in episode 108.

<snip>

However...as the Genii <sp?> in 108 were part of a Federation of worlds, perhaps we can say the culture in 107 were part of that...and the uniform designs carried down through the ages. Unlikely; but could work.
QUOTE]

<nods> I'm hoping that this and other shared similarities among the different cultures in Pegasus will be explained as the common knowledge of their roots- seeded by the Ancients - and of their common enemy - the Wraith - as well as their casual use of the Stargate system for trade. How many Russians wear American designer jeans made in Mexico?

I really, really do like how the Pegasus system is set up; it's such a different mentality from the submissive, largely ignorant, enslaved masses of humanity scattered throughout the Milky Way series,... erm, galaxy. :p

Cydonia
August 30th, 2004, 10:32 AM
...I've been told you can get lenses specially "weighted" so that they stay aligned properly, but I've only ever heard it was possible, I don't think I've ever actually seen any.
(slightly off topic)

Yes, weighted contacts do exist. I used to wear them (called toric lenses) due to severe astigmatism where the contact has to sit a certain way on the eye to properly correct the vision. I'm sure they make them non-prescription too.

Now back to your regularly scheduled topic... :)

Tok'Ra Hostess
August 31st, 2004, 05:52 AM
Bringing this over from the now locked Poisoning the Well thread:

Quote:
Originally Posted by TheAncientOne
it seems to me that(mass producing and distributing the drug with the intent of wiping out the Wraith)would be justified since they require human sacrifice to live and the alternative to execution would be starvation. Whichever is less painful would be appropriate as such. [/QUOTE]


Someone else(sorry, I forget) replied:
[QUOTE]Well people eat cows, and deer and all sorts of creatures. Most view it as ok because they are "lesser" than us and eating is part of nature. I don't see how the Wraith are different, we even farm and control our food like the Wraith. I can see how Atlantis doesn't want to be eaten and their plight seems justified due to that.

<shakes head> Not like the Wraith, not the "advanced" farm societites of our planet. :(


Having been a livestock farmer and having seen first hand, farm factories, I have to say one positive thing about how the Wraith proceed: They allow their "livestock" to lead relatively free lives - to be free-ranging, if you will(I know, ewww!)

But seriously, if a Wraith were to witness our farm factory operations up close, they'd probably have as much respect for us as we do for pigs.(Note: Pigs are essentially a clean animal that just happens to be able to eat anything, including carrion, but our perception of pigs, brought about largely by human abuse, is that pigs are stupid, dirty and violent creatures.)

JediTrilobite
November 1st, 2004, 12:24 PM
I enjoyed this episode, although it seemed like they were grasping for video. There were a lot of scenes with music and people doing things. Don't get me wrong, I liked it, but it was very different.

Crazedwraith
November 23rd, 2004, 02:02 PM
Amazing Episode. Really well acted by Carson. The last bit with the woman doctor really pulled on the heart strings... Liked the Steve/Shep interactions.

Ancients Rising
November 23rd, 2004, 02:12 PM
Steve was great. "I am your death" - what a line.

This was definetly the best episode since Rising. Agree with the point raised earlier about them struggling for video.

Watters87
November 23rd, 2004, 02:15 PM
Brilliant episode. Paul McGillion was excellent. Loved the Wraith being called Steve and good Sheppard/Steve interaction also. :)

Elita
November 23rd, 2004, 02:26 PM
Yet another ace episode. It was great to see more of Beckett: he's a very skilful actor in one episode getting me to laugh out loud and reducing me to tears.

The episode seemed to deal with a lot of moral issues which was interesting. I think poisoning the well succeeded here where childhood's end fell short, well for me anyway - I felt a lot more of an emotional investment at the end when everything went to hell in a hand basket.

The Sheppard/Steve scenes were excellent. I'd seen the steve appreciation thread before this ep and didn't quite see the attraction but this episode cinched it.

I noticed the little montage set to music too, I think it was a good way to convey time passing, it worked and added a touch of class IMHO.

All in all a quality episode, one of the best so far and that's saying something :D

shelsfc
November 23rd, 2004, 02:32 PM
Fantastic episode!

Paul McGillion was amazing - I hear he's going to be a regular next year, which is great!!

Nice Weir/Sheppard stuff when they were discussing what to do with Steve.

And the Sheppard/Steve moments were good - Steve was quite cool actually, pity they couldn't have kept him around for a bit longer. I now see what all the fuss was about :D

It's nice to see they're starting to use first names a bit more.

Matt G
November 23rd, 2004, 04:38 PM
Woah!

1. Paul McGillion brought his A-game to this ep!

2. Hmmm....tricky situation here. I don't blame the 'locals' in this ep for going down the road they did but the whole thing is a moral mess. Procedure wise they made the best of a bad situation.

Can't say I blame the Atlantis guys for saying 'we'll leave you be'. They've got their way of doing things, we've got ours and if they want to do things their way instead of ours then we're honestly of limited use to them.

Part of me still hopes they don't get completely creamed though.

Atlantis just moved up a gear though!:) Now, how many more gears have they got?

TechnoWraith
November 23rd, 2004, 05:01 PM
Great episode.

Steve was cool. He's actually the reason why I think the Wraith are pretty cool. Too bad they killed him. I was thinking Steve would make a great candidate at making Major Sheppard's life a royal pain in the butt.

I also thought it somewhat odd that the Hoffans would commit so quickly to the drug, despite it not being thoroughly tested. But I guess i can see it from their point of view, as well. Maybe they should have exercised more caution in implementing the drug to begin with.

Anubis
November 24th, 2004, 08:36 AM
I think this episode was great. Good actions between the two worlds. :)


Beckett was great, we've learned that he seems to know a LOT! :D Much more than I thought he had known prior to this episode. ;) It's a shame that he lost a good friend he had made, making me feel sorry for him.


Steve. :D Steve is great, I think that name suited him very well indeed. I think the interaction between Sheppard and Steve was really funny, trusting by the way of Sheppard's sense of humour.


Mainly focused around Carson and Steve, not really around others, so there isn't a lot to comment on, but I still think that world was stupid voting 96% in favor of the treatment .. stupid people. :D

Major Clanger
November 24th, 2004, 11:11 AM
Flying visit to say... fab fab fab ep. Loved it. A lot.

Madeleine
November 24th, 2004, 01:58 PM
I was surprised a not-in-the-credits character would get to Star in an ep this early on. Jolly good thing he did though. He's my favourite character and it was nice seeing so much more to him than the neuroses :)

It's nice to finally 'get' what people are on about when they talk about Steve.

Glad to see that the, um, whoever they were chose the 'wrong' way. It's always better to have aliens / offworlders behaving totally at odds to the heroes or to Earth behaviour and keeping their own standards. Makes them more alien / otherworldly. And hence more INTERESTING.

l liked Weir's indecision. I think she'd really decided to go along with Shepherd right away, but feels duty bound to hash the argument about a bit before committing. Not very military, but very diplomat.

Good ep.

Terok
November 25th, 2004, 08:54 AM
A very good episode, and like most people I thought that Beckett/Paul McGillion was great in this episode, definately becoming one of the better characters in the series. I also find it a little strange that the show would choose to focus on character development for one of the background characters when main characters like Teyla and Ford are desparately in need of some.

Also liked the scenes between Sheppard/Steve, and it's a shame that they killed him off so fast.

.:Lemon:.
November 26th, 2004, 02:11 PM
I thought this episode was good :D Really nice to see Beckett have a major role in this ep! Oh and I loved Steve in it :p My favourite Atlantis ep so far I think

SeaBee
November 26th, 2004, 04:36 PM
I enjoyed this episode, and I'm glad that the writers seem to have shied away from the "comic Scot" roll they were in danger of giving Beckett in the first 2 episodes.

Shame they killed off Steve, though. There could have been some interesting twists, if he had been kept alive.

CultTVGirl
December 9th, 2004, 08:35 AM
Shame they killed off Steve, though. There could have been some interesting twists, if he had been kept alive.

That really surprised me. I wasn't expecting Steve to die. I actually felt sorry for him in the end! :(

But Paul McGillion was fantastic in this episode!

Elite Anubis Guard
April 5th, 2005, 02:09 AM
watching this again on the preview dvd that comes with SG1V38! Some funny bits, reference to McCoy and an interesting story idea.

Elite Anubis Guard
April 5th, 2005, 02:34 AM
Anyone else notice that when they where going thro the gate with steve, when we say out the cockpit when Ford was dialing they where still in the jumper bay and once hed finished dailing they where in the gate room?

Elite Anubis Guard
April 5th, 2005, 01:34 PM
The guy who was the test subject was just in Dead Like Me, lol, he got killed by a shoe. I love seeing SG actors in other shows!

Unamed
June 5th, 2005, 04:19 PM
To be honest i feel this was the most boring of all atlantis episodes. Sure there was alot of story telling and we needed to find out the info but it was just lacking imo.

aaobuttons
June 5th, 2005, 06:05 PM
To be honest i feel this was the most boring of all atlantis episodes. Sure there was alot of story telling and we needed to find out the info but it was just lacking imo.


Not every episode has to have lots of explosions in it to be good. PTW was a great character piece, not just for Carson, but also for Sheppard and Elizabeth. While I wouldn't put it in my top 5 for the season, I definetly wouldn't call it "lacking" by any means.

TechnoWraith
June 5th, 2005, 06:18 PM
People like episodes for varying reasons.

I like PTW because i'm a certified Wraith worshipper, and Steve absolutely kicks major butt in the Wraith department.

I also liked Beckett's performance, too. PTW was a strong Beckett episode, and he shined pretty well, (though not as brightly as Steve).

donnie_darko
July 9th, 2005, 06:32 AM
I don't know if this has been said but I wonder if the team is still working on the drug. If they could find out who would be neg. effected by the drug and who it will protect then it would be good for the team.

Or they could try and make an aerosol of the blocker/poison and create a good BC (biological/chemical) weapon. Or dip their bullets in the chem. or create darts to deliver it directly in the body of Wraith.....

saxamoophone
August 1st, 2005, 07:32 PM
ha, just noticed that Allison Hossack plays the smart hot chick in both this episode and SG-1's "Cure".

Both deal with a magic drug that does something amazing. And, she's kinda the same character in both...

Evidently in Atlantis, they are allowed to reuse actors ;)

kimaken
August 2nd, 2005, 06:29 AM
ha, just noticed that Allison Hossack plays the smart hot chick in both this episode and SG-1's "Cure".

Both deal with a magic drug that does something amazing. And, she's kinda the same character in both...

Evidently in Atlantis, they are allowed to reuse actors ;)
They use many of the same actors in most of the shows taped in Vancouver, British Columbia (Canada) as they don't have as large a base of actors as you'd find in Hollywood or NYC. The producers might fly in a big name actor for a guest starring role, but not for the everyday background and recurring characters. One of the reasons RDA left SG1 is because he wants to spend more time with his family, who doesn't live in Canada.

Some of the advantages for taping in Vancouver include lower production costs and availablilty of all sorts of outdoor backgrounds to accommodate almost any scene (cityscape, wooded areas, all four seasons--rain, snow, sunshine, clouds, etc.) compared to Hollywood and NYC. I think we'll see more new actors flocking to Vancouver to get their start in the business, but for now expect to see many of the same faces from other shows. :)

Nerual
February 22nd, 2006, 01:39 PM
Eirual here, I love this episode because of two reasons:

It was my first complete Atlantis episode I ever watched (It came with the first SG-1 dvd for season 8).

It introduced me to the character of Carson Beckett who is easily my favourite character to date.

I'm glad I got the chance to become a fan of it.

:mckay: SUPPORT THE ROCKETT!!!:beckett:

mckaychick
February 22nd, 2006, 01:50 PM
this was a very good episode and one of my favorites. It had some good lines

captain jake
April 8th, 2006, 11:30 PM
Man the ending of that episode was realy bitter. However I cant believe that they seriously wanted to take the drug to different planets were they insane.

freyr's mother
April 9th, 2006, 12:46 AM
this was a very good episode and one of my favorites. It had some good lines

Definately, especially Steve's whole deal with sheppard. Okeydokey, im gonna go make myself a sandwich.


McKAY: C'mon, how often do you get to travel to an alien planet?

BECKETT: I was already on an alien planet!

Just to name a few.

captain jake
April 9th, 2006, 11:13 AM
Ya those were some realy great quotes but there were some real break throughs with our understanding of the wraith. When shepard started pittying the steve. Steve got pissed off and pushed him away they obviously have some real psychological issues.

BC - 303
May 31st, 2006, 08:50 AM
Re-watching this i notised something, the drug was made from someone who couldnt be eaten by the wraith! Ronan couldnt be eaten by the wraith!!

PERNA: The key. (She opens the book.) His journals tell of one man who survived an encounter with the Wraith. Ferrel and his team discovered that this man possessed a unique protein, one that enabled him to resist the chemical released by the Wraith to precipitate draining of life from their victims. After painstaking trial and error ...
BECKETT (looking at the book): Ferrel made a copy of the protein.
PERNA: He was eventually able to create a prototype of a drug designed to interfere with the Wraith feeding process.
BECKETT: And it worked?
PERNA: Ferrel was killed before the drug could be used to defend Hoff.
WE know alot more about how wraith feed, with the enzyme and what not, i reacon we should take another crack at this drug.

Raziel
May 31st, 2006, 09:43 AM
I think the same, BC....

This is an aspect of Ronon that the writers doesn't take count or may be they are waiting for a key moment to show up with this.... May be the man Perna talked about from the book was in fact a Satedan.... we don't know if the protein that Ronon have is a characteristic only in him or all the Satedans..... :S may be in Season 3 we'll know more about this.... hope so!....

:ronan: :beckett:

captain jake
May 31st, 2006, 12:14 PM
The only way we will see it is if he get's captured and a wraith attempts to eat him.

BC - 303
May 31st, 2006, 07:44 PM
i think we will find out on ronans backstory episode.

captain jake
May 31st, 2006, 07:49 PM
Will there be one?

BC - 303
May 31st, 2006, 07:53 PM
Season 3, Sateda, its going to be all about Ronan.

captain jake
May 31st, 2006, 09:36 PM
O ok cool.

Might wan't to put that in a spoiler tag.

BC - 303
June 1st, 2006, 03:10 AM
Im staying relitivly spoiler free, just knowing theres an episode about Ronan and its name isnt THAT much of a spoiler, you could find that out from watching the advert for that episode.

captain jake
June 1st, 2006, 10:22 AM
Are they advertising yet?

Orovingwen
September 26th, 2006, 08:13 PM
Finally a Beckett episode where he can stand tall for his believes.
I liked it much that it was about the experiment and not "another lovestory" (often that kills good eps) Ok only that heart breaking scene in the end *cry* I guess my fav beckett scene! a crying carson - a doc with heart. *sniff* Carson is so sweet *hug him*
And we have "Bones"^^

I just was bothered by McKay a bit, say unneccesary things but I liked that lil gestures in the end when Carson came down the hallway. Steve and Shep were so cool but it was (exspecially with Shep in the end) like steamroller tactics.

and meh I liked Steve.. my fave wraith^^

meredithchandler73
November 16th, 2006, 10:43 AM
Really liked this episode. Love Beckett!!! Love Steve! (Not in the same way, of course.) I liked the dark ending. I don't know what's going to happen in future episodes/seasons, but I'm sure we haven't seen the last of this drug.

Arga
November 17th, 2006, 03:01 PM
I loved all the focus on Carson, but the ep itself was kinda draggy and far too preachy for my tastes. I could, however, buy 96% of the population agreeing to the drug. Americans sure as hell wouldn't want anything to do with it, but these people are from another planet with a very different mentality, different problems, different culture, different everything.
different everything, but oddly..... same clothing, architecture, furniture style, technological advancement, than on early 20th century Earth (or America, more precisely). How did they explain this strange coincidence?
I don't suppose humans were taken from Earth at this era, and I can't believe they could evolve from primitive to exactly the same fashion as Earth.
I just don't like when aliens' fashion & design are too identical to humans'

November 21st, 2006, 11:45 AM
:ford:
different everything, but oddly..... same clothing, architecture, furniture style, technological advancement, than on early 20th century Earth (or America, more precisely). How did they explain this strange coincidence?
I don't suppose humans were taken from Earth at this era, and I can't believe they could evolve from primitive to exactly the same fashion as Earth.
I just don't like when aliens' fashion & design are too identical to humans'

:ford: Now you must remember did not the Ancients come from the
Milky Way Galaxy and went to Pegasus and populated it and developed
it until the Wraith Arose? Then they left and went back Home to Earth.
So there are many reasons the same type fashions could be found
thru out the Pegasus that would mirror the Milky Way.
But that is a good question, just like in Stargate, the Ancients built
the gates, but the Goul'd used them to enslave the people of Earth
and took them to other planets and they mirrored the Egyptian Society.
Who knows? but there are a lot of different worlds there that are not
copies. Teyla's World and Ronan's seem to dress differently than
your average American. Even though Ronan does have the Afro Dreadlocks.

:ford: Lt. Geo. Jr.

Trialia
January 7th, 2007, 03:57 PM
*laughs* Well, I knew I recognised "Perna" from somewhere, and now I know why. She's played by Allison Hossack, the same actress who played Zenna in the SG-1 episode "Cure" - watched that today and got hit by the clue-by-four. :P

Yet another example of the Vancouver casting pool? ;) Of course, in thirteen seasons' worth of shows you're bound to re-employ a few actors (not counting main cast members). Simon/Narim was the most noticeable reuse of an actor from SG-1 to Atlantis, and I'm sure I'd have noticed Zenna/Perna before now if I were a more devoted SG-1 fan, like some of the other members of this forum. :) But glory be, it's a double-take to notice them. :P Maybe we should make it a drinking game? :D

Angela V
January 8th, 2007, 09:26 PM
So sad for Steve! My son wasn't scared of him at all. Though he kept saying "I know that's an actor in there." :). He likes Atlantis too much to stop watching because of some scary dudes.

neurophobic_and_perfect
February 4th, 2007, 04:26 AM
I felt kinda sorry for steve - he was all locked up and it kinda reminded me of when lions get put in little boxes.
Good epesode overall though. Lots of emosional wumping for Carson.

Anuna
February 5th, 2007, 03:23 AM
This was a great episode, about moral issues and deeply thought provoking - I love episodes like this. It was disturbing to see what happened to Steave, and the treatment Sheppard gave him wasn't pretty at all. Yes I know, there is no way to reason or negotiate with a species that considers you a meal, but it was disturbing.

I loved Carson moments in this episode.

neurophobic_and_perfect
February 5th, 2007, 09:32 AM
deffinately one of the better epesodes.

bcfc
February 5th, 2007, 04:24 PM
This was very good but the Churchill reference at the end really bugged me it felt so cheesey.

Anuna
February 6th, 2007, 12:28 AM
I guess the Churchill reference fits good into what those people on that planet were trying to do - win no matter what was the price. Which is wrong.

TuesdayRain
June 6th, 2007, 06:53 AM
So I just rewatched this episode becasuse I miss Carson. And I was reminded about some questions I had the first time I watched. I read through this thread and didn't see anyone really bring it up. There were so many moral and ethical questions in this episode that I think it bears bringing up again. (It's great when something makes you think and discuss!)

Did the Atlantis team leave the Hoffans because they disagreed with the people's decision to go forward with the world-wide distribution of the innoculation or because they believed the drug no longer was a defensive instrument but an offensive weapon in which it now kills other living beings, that being the Wraith, and is therefore wrong and they want no part of it?

If the team left the Hoffans because they disagreed with the people's decision, then I have no problem with that. A people has the right to decide their own course. We can only choose to walk away if we disagree and not judge or force others to come to our point of view.

However, what I don't understand is why is it such a moral issue (if indeed it was) if they left because the drug was now going to kill the Wraith. The only analogy I can think of is poison ivy. If you see it and know that it's not good for you, you don't touch it. All the Wraith has to do is not touch a Hoffan. The Hoffans are not killing the Wraith, it's the Wraith that are killing themselves if they touch a Hoffan.

Now that I'm typing this, I have another question. What are the rules of war? Humans are at war with the Wraith who are another race. We (real world) have biological weapons. Is it justified in war?

garhkal
June 6th, 2007, 01:00 PM
I think the biggest reason they lef, was initially the hoffans were touting the drug as a defensive measure that would save their entire race. Then when it was found out it would kill half their people for it to be effective it became a hinderance to associate with them, and finally to see their work perverted from a defensive measure to being a weapon was the last straw.

Heck, i have no prob if hey wished to kill themselves that way, but i too would have nothing else to do wih them afterwards.

daysleeper
August 14th, 2007, 09:07 PM
Moral issues aside, this episode really bothered me.

- Why not create a weapon with syringe bullets containing the Hoffan serum since they already know it can kill a Wraith? The Wraith unlike the Goauld don't seem to have personal shield to protect themselves, probably because they rely on regeneration. Even if they develop one, as in SG-1 a syringe weapon can penetrate the shield. Walking away from this was unacceptable to me.

- Someone else may have said it in the previous pages but the Hoffan serum can also be used as a suicide pill for last resort - one that has, mind you, 50/50 chance of actually keeping the user alive. How bad is that if your chance of surviving is virtually zero without it, say when you're in captivity of the Wraith?

PS. Yes I just watched the eposide recently, in fact I just completed Season 1 Atlantis today having previously watched only SG-1. Let's see if these questions get answered later on though I doubt it. Great show so far, the characters seem real (but really annoying, e.g. the indecisive Dr. Weir)...

twinchaosblade
August 14th, 2007, 10:02 PM
So I just rewatched this episode becasuse I miss Carson. And I was reminded about some questions I had the first time I watched. I read through this thread and didn't see anyone really bring it up. There were so many moral and ethical questions in this episode that I think it bears bringing up again. (It's great when something makes you think and discuss!)

Did the Atlantis team leave the Hoffans because they disagreed with the people's decision to go forward with the world-wide distribution of the innoculation or because they believed the drug no longer was a defensive instrument but an offensive weapon in which it now kills other living beings, that being the Wraith, and is therefore wrong and they want no part of it?

If the team left the Hoffans because they disagreed with the people's decision, then I have no problem with that. A people has the right to decide their own course. We can only choose to walk away if we disagree and not judge or force others to come to our point of view.

However, what I don't understand is why is it such a moral issue (if indeed it was) if they left because the drug was now going to kill the Wraith. The only analogy I can think of is poison ivy. If you see it and know that it's not good for you, you don't touch it. All the Wraith has to do is not touch a Hoffan. The Hoffans are not killing the Wraith, it's the Wraith that are killing themselves if they touch a Hoffan.

Now that I'm typing this, I have another question. What are the rules of war? Humans are at war with the Wraith who are another race. We (real world) have biological weapons. Is it justified in war?

I think the Lantians/expedition abandoned the Hoffans because they couldn't accept and support the latter's decision to use the drug despite the 50 per cent mortality rate. Plus the fact that, since the drug didn't only prevent the Wraith from feeding but also killed them, they were afraid of retributions by the Wraith. Once the Wraith realized that the Hoffans had this drug and distributed it to other worlds, effectively limiting their feeding grounds (both by reducing the sheer number of inhabitants and those that survive are immune and a danger), the Wraith would have erased the whole planet out of existence, just as well as anyone who had dealings with this people because the Wraith simply can't tolerate and merely ignore the Hoffan's success. They would have been utterly destroyed, for the Wraith would have wanted to stop their distribution, plus setting an example as to what happens to people who dare defying them.

As I see it, it was a multilayered dilemma for the Lantians. Not only didn't the Hoffan's want Carson to continue working on the drug to make it safe(r) before administering it (something Beckett and probably most of the expedition as well would never have accepted), plus they probably feared that this kind of action (after all the Wraith would have gotten to know about the drug being a danger to their species some time) would only accellerate the Wraith's advance on all the Hoffan's allies, thus on them as well.


Moral issues aside, this episode really bothered me.

- Why not create a weapon with syringe bullets containing the Hoffan serum since they already know it can kill a Wraith? The Wraith unlike the Goauld don't seem to have personal shield to protect themselves, probably because they rely on regeneration. Even if they develop one, as in SG-1 a syringe weapon can penetrate the shield. Walking away from this was unacceptable to me.

- Someone else may have said it in the previous pages but the Hoffan serum can also be used as a suicide pill for last resort - one that has, mind you, 50/50 chance of actually keeping the user alive. How bad is that if your chance of surviving is virtually zero without it, say when you're in captivity of the Wraith?

PS. Yes I just watched the eposide recently, in fact I just completed Season 1 Atlantis today having previously watched only SG-1. Let's see if these questions get answered later on though I doubt it. Great show so far, the characters seem real (but really annoying, e.g. the indecisive Dr. Weir)...

Welcome to Gateworld, daysleeper!
I think this serum wasn't used as a syringe weapon because it takes too long to take effect. The Wraith would die at last but not immediately enough to prevent the culling. Therefore the Hoffans would still lose their lives. Injecting themselves with the drug and hoping to be on the side of the surviving 50 per cent, would hold a much greater chance of survival for the people. If the Hoffans all died, it would be a bitter victory and who would continue the production of the drug?

The point with the suicide pill is actually a good one. Although there is no knowing how long the drug takes to become effective in the recipient, thus they might be fed upon before the Wraith have to fear for any deadly effects for themselves. Just my two cents...

And I also think that 'Poisoning the Well' was a very good episode, very emotional and touching, especially for Carson Beckett! My heart broke for him when Perna died. http://i210.photobucket.com/albums/bb58/TCBTwinchy/smilies/beckett_cry2.gif
(I think Paul McGillion gave a fabulous performance in this episode!)

daysleeper
August 15th, 2007, 04:39 PM
Hey thanks twinchaosblade!

I was referring to the Tauris using srynge weapons, not the Hoffans. If they use it in conjunction with regular projectile weapons I think it can be effective. Regardless, I agree the episode is emotionally entertaining.

I'm on to Season 2 as we speak!

garhkal
August 24th, 2007, 06:22 AM
Moral issues aside, this episode really bothered me.

- Why not create a weapon with syringe bullets containing the Hoffan serum since they already know it can kill a Wraith? The Wraith unlike the Goauld don't seem to have personal shield to protect themselves, probably because they rely on regeneration. Even if they develop one, as in SG-1 a syringe weapon can penetrate the shield. Walking away from this was unacceptable to me.

Perhaps cause the drug only seemed to work if the wraith fed on someone who consumed it, they could not 'weaponize it.

garhkal
February 22nd, 2008, 11:59 PM
Well after what happend in Kindred part 1 (season 4 ep 17), we now know what happened to the Hoffans..

Arga
February 23rd, 2008, 04:04 PM
Great but... :( You forgot to put spoilers tag... We're not supposed to say anything that happens in season 4, on a season 1 forum... It's not too late to edit your post and place it between SPOILERS tags.. Please.

garhkal
February 23rd, 2008, 04:21 PM
That better..

Artifysial
September 10th, 2008, 01:25 PM
I was surprised more was not made of the potential for a weapon here as well. I mean more is made later on about blowing the Wraith away and turning them against each other and so on so why not use a serum at this point that can infect them or even a whole hive? There were presumably no rules of space war as there are on Earth about the use of biological warfare - not an honourable death for a Wraith of course but then if if it's a straight choice between Wraith fodder and survivor where's the choice. In earth wars no one is trying to suck your life blood for dinner.

gateship15
September 14th, 2008, 02:30 AM
i feel sorry for Carson Beckett! i like him and when the woman died i was sad for him because he liked her very much.

Orion25
September 19th, 2008, 12:49 AM
I liked the episode. It was another view of how the humans in the Pegasus have been surviving against the Wraith and seeing how a society's development has been hampered by the periodical culling. I begin to wonder if the drug would eventually fall into Genii hands, seeing they have spies in some home worlds. I'm also curious as to what happened to the rest of the Hoffans now. Someone mentioned where the peculiar protein resistant to the Wraith's feeding enzyme, may have come from a Satedan. Interesting theory and I hope the writers will pick up on this again sometime. I guess I have to wait and see.

Butlersgate
February 25th, 2009, 12:40 PM
one of my fav beckett episodes :D

escyos
May 15th, 2009, 04:09 AM
this was an ok episode. learning about the wraith was cool

nmmb
July 15th, 2009, 06:43 PM
Liked the episode!We learn a lot about Beckett is a lot like Dr.Fraiser in a way that he is very ethical and wants to help most of wall. He has a bit of Daniel Jackson first time trough the Stargate and makes a lady friend :)

ktebid
February 9th, 2010, 11:00 PM
This was an interesting episode in that we see the differences in morals between galaxies. I thought Beckett did a fantastic job.

albatross
March 16th, 2010, 02:40 PM
Does anyone else find it strange to learn that the wraith wear shoes? I mean, of course they wear shoes, but... I just can't see them going shopping for Hush Puppies. Do they have wraith cobblers to make them? How do they tie the laces with those clunky goey fingers? Is there such a thing as wraith chic? Just what is the most sensible footwear for hunting down and eating people? It surely isn't winklepickers.

I have SO many questions.

Trillian52
March 22nd, 2010, 05:16 PM
Does anyone else find it strange to learn that the wraith wear shoes? I mean, of course they wear shoes, but... I just can't see them going shopping for Hush Puppies. Do they have wraith cobblers to make them? How do they tie the laces with those clunky goey fingers? Is there such a thing as wraith chic? Just what is the most sensible footwear for hunting down and eating people? It surely isn't winklepickers.

I have SO many questions.

Perhaps different footwear for different occasions? All well dressed Wraith would have at least a couple of pairs of boots for hunting (to suit dry and wet weather conditions) and the winklepickers for more formal events such as meeting the Queen? I think they're more slip-ons type guys rather than laces and as for Wraith chic - I think Todd provides more than enough proof to support that idea!!:D

Todd's Pet
March 23rd, 2010, 06:49 AM
*sneaks in - mourns for Steve - is so devastated by grief has to crawl out* :(

Re wraith chic: is this ep not about Steve? Is Steve not the epitome of wraith chic? :cool:

albatross
March 23rd, 2010, 07:26 AM
You're right, Steve certainly has it down.

Poor Steve. Still my favourite character.

Todd's Pet
March 23rd, 2010, 11:57 AM
You're right, Steve certainly has it down.

Poor Steve. Still my favourite character.

*hugs Albatross*

My first venture out of the wraith threads... nice to see "non-wraith worshippers" who still appreciate wraith :S :)

addicted_to_steve
June 18th, 2010, 07:32 PM
Steve makes this episode, despite his being in it for about 8 minutes. It's such a shame he has to die at the end. He could have just fallen ill... I'd be quite happy to nurse him back to health...

mrscopterdoc
June 21st, 2010, 08:49 PM
A great Beckett eppy............and also for Steve :D [even though he died]

addicted_to_steve
June 21st, 2010, 09:40 PM
It was a great Beckett episode. I have such a conflict of interest there... on the one hand, he helped perfect the drug that killed Steve, on the other, he is just such a great character.

Anyway. I now have a theory that Steve actually lives. When he's lying on the autopsy bed, they zoom in close just as JL swallows. Yes, I know he needs to breath, lol, but that did not stop me from yelling "Steve Lives" at the top of my lungs (yes, I am insane. Yes, I have watched Poisoning the Well way too many times)

jelgate
June 22nd, 2010, 06:32 AM
It was a great Beckett episode. I have such a conflict of interest there... on the one hand, he helped perfect the drug that killed Steve, on the other, he is just such a great character.

Anyway. I now have a theory that Steve actually lives. When he's lying on the autopsy bed, they zoom in close just as JL swallows. Yes, I know he needs to breath, lol, but that did not stop me from yelling "Steve Lives" at the top of my lungs (yes, I am insane. Yes, I have watched Poisoning the Well way too many times)

If he had survived we would have known about it. A Wraith going on a murderous rampage would be hard to ignore

addicted_to_steve
June 22nd, 2010, 06:37 AM
If he had survived we would have known about it. A Wraith going on a murderous rampage would be hard to ignore


A fair point... but I reckon if any Wraith was going to go on a murdering rampage... Steve would be the most entertaining to watch

Elorendil
June 25th, 2010, 08:39 PM
I loved the part where Sheppard names Steve. That was pretty funny. "I am your death." "I like Steve better." :p

I would say that this is a pretty deep episode. It delves into some very philosophical issues - the whole experimenting on prisoners thing, using the vaccine as an offensive weapon against the wraiths, if it is worth all of the deaths, etc. I think Sheppard was definitely right when he said the wraiths wouldn't leave the Hoffens alone once they realised that feeding on them was deadly - they will just wipe them out. Sad that they were so focused on this vaccine that they couldn't see that.

The Flyattractor
October 13th, 2010, 08:56 PM
Just noticed that Steve dosen't have any face tats?

Why is that?

Didn't want to mess up his good looks with em?]

addicted_to_steve
October 15th, 2010, 08:47 PM
Just noticed that Steve dosen't have any face tats?

Why is that?

Didn't want to mess up his good looks with em?]

That's my theory. He realised he was devilishly handsome enough without having to highlight his facial features with tats :D
This does not mean that there are none on his body... ;)

maneth
November 11th, 2010, 09:54 AM
Interesting ep. The ending was rather predictable, however...It would simply have been too easy if they'd found something that would prevent the Wraith feeding on humans without any side effects.

Skie
March 14th, 2011, 01:47 PM
Interesting ep. The ending was rather predictable, however...It would simply have been too easy if they'd found something that would prevent the Wraith feeding on humans without any side effects.

What was too effortless is the fact that they could synthesize this protein so quickly. Such a thing is not easy, especially as we can easily assume that a protein capable of fending off the feeding process is highly complex. I would have made two parts. First make contact with the Hoffans and test the drug on the cells they got from the wraith arm. Let some time go by for other eps. After that show a second ep with the capture of the wraith and then the test on poor Steve.

What they also don't say is the fact that you would need to repeat those inoculations after some years if it works like a vaccination. But if it is not like a vaccination, the protein will catabolize and you need to take it like a drug for it to work (with maybe the risk of dying again). Not to mention that you would loose 50% of every next generation until you refine the drug (that having the risk that it would not be as effective as before or would not work at all) as they would have to be inoculated again.

The other thing is that also some wraiths would be immune (e.g. even for HIV there is immunity) and this would then be genetical, meaning those wraiths who survive are giving this immunity to the next generation.

Something to add:
That was a very slippery road they took and that's why I loved S1-3, the moral issue, which was often brought up by Weir. That's why a civilian has to lead this expedition and not some military guy. Are we any better than the wraith if we use them for experiments and let them starve to death. The wraith were accused for experimenting in THE GIFT but look what we did.

Skie
May 20th, 2011, 03:59 AM
I just wondered today:
If Steve could have fed after he tried to feed on that terminally ill patient, would he have survived? Because we know they have incredible regenerative/healing abilities. Maybe it would have been possible for Steve to recover from the poisoning? Just wondered.

WraithRichard
May 20th, 2011, 06:39 PM
Something to add:
That was a very slippery road they took and that's why I loved S1-3, the moral issue, which was often brought up by Weir. That's why a civilian has to lead this expedition and not some military guy. Are we any better than the wraith if we use them for experiments and let them starve to death. The wraith were accused for experimenting in THE GIFT but look what we did.

Indeed this was confusing. So what they did was bad, but what we did was okay, even though we have laws forbidding it specifically, but those can apparently be ignored if no one's going to tell you it was wrong.

This insinuates all the humans collaborated to a completely different story for their mission reports, or that the IOA, members of which can easily get themselves into--pardon the phrase, I see none better--deep ****, has secretly added 'when we feel like it' to intentional laws of war (all but one country on the Atlantis committee has ratified the Geneva convention alone) and called it a day when it came to Atlantis protocol.

Amazing how representatives of several dozen countries can be written so out of character offscreen.

Skie
May 21st, 2011, 05:50 AM
Amazing how representatives of several dozen countries can be written so out of character offscreen.

You can MAYBE be a bit more forgiving in S1, since there they were cut off from Earth. It makes you more desperate and the IOA could not intervene after reading mission reports. BUT after they regained contact with Earth, this SHOULD have been brought up.
And though I don't like Kavanagh, he was actually right about reporting that incident with Steve to O'Neill in a private message in the ep LOP. But he probably only did it because it gave him the opportunity to criticize Weir. Because I didn't agree with his other whinings as Ford so nicely put it. ;)

WraithRichard
May 21st, 2011, 10:22 AM
You can MAYBE be a bit more forgiving in S1, since there they were cut off from Earth. It makes you more desperate and the IOA could not intervene after reading mission reports. BUT after they regained contact with Earth, this SHOULD have been brought up.
And though I don't like Kavanagh, he was actually right about reporting that incident with Steve to O'Neill in a private message in the ep LOP. But he probably only did it because it gave him the opportunity to criticize Weir. Because I didn't agree with his other whinings as Ford so nicely put it. ;)

Indeed. Just because a person you don't like does something for the wrong reason doesn't mean it isn't right the right thing to do. As a people, we'll have to make a formal apology for it someday

NowIWillDestroyAbydos
June 8th, 2012, 04:53 PM
I'm starting to think getting ahead of the pace.

I thought was an average episode.

Carson found love and she died, sad :(

Monday, the Genii make their first appearance.

hlndncr
June 8th, 2012, 05:44 PM
This is the episode that made Dr. Beckett a star. After Paul McGillion's performance how could they not make him one of the principles.

This is the episode where Carson gets his name. If I recall correctly, Damian Kindler went to Brad Wright when he started writing this episode asking what Dr. Beckett's first name was and BW made it up on the spot because he didn't have one.

I think this is a great story and did turn out to be a jumping off point for several later storylines. The Hoffan culture was fabulous. It's the first indication of some advancement among the peoples of the Pegasus Galaxy. We learn something of how the Wraith operate and get a feel for what it must be like to live under the shadow of an inevitable culling. We also have interesting moral questions that are addressed but never fully answered to anyone's satisfaction. I enjoyed the murkiness of it all.

This is definitely my favorite episode so far.

Lieutenant Sparrow
June 10th, 2012, 07:33 PM
Pretty boring ep.

Beckett was pretty good. Paul McGillion's best performance so far.

What's with Teyla's hair? Did she originally have dinner plans? Looked nice anyway.

I know the Hoffan people were desperate but wow. Such a risk.

The Hoffan drug will make for some interesting stories later on.

mathpiglet
June 11th, 2012, 12:52 PM
The Hoffan drug does lead to many episodes later on, but the best part for me was the ethics discussion between Weir and Shepherd. I'm still not sure with whom I agree.

Krisz
June 11th, 2012, 04:52 PM
I completely forgot this episode, don't know if I'd even ever watched it! It explains why when there was mention of this 'Hoffan drug' in odd episodes I happened to watch later on that I wondered where it came from! :D

It was actually quite a good episode. What a moral conundrum?! It reminded me of the SG-1 episode with the people using Goa'uld symbiotes to synthesise a drug that gave them immunity to disease at the cost of Tok'ra lives it turned out. Again the choice of letting people die for what is believed to be for a greater good. Also killing one species to save another, not much room for moral sensibilities here it seems!

Beckett was great in this episode, he really shines as the conflicted Doctor going against the very oath he stood by. It's the question of how desperate does a person or group get before ethics are questioned and even abandoned in the face of death!

Lythisrose
June 12th, 2012, 10:24 PM
Joe Mallozzi's memories of this episode:
http://josephmallozzi.wordpress.com/2012/06/10/june-10-2012-misery-comic-con-days-of-stargate-past-atlantis-poisoning-the-well-and-underground/

POISONING THE WELL (107)

This was my favorite episode since the two-hour opener. It offered a difficult moral and ethical dilemma with no easy answers and a wonderful emotional arc in Carson Beckett’s working relationship with Perna, the Hoffan scientist. I like my endings like I like my chocolate, bittersweet, so the conclusion to this one really resonated with me. The episode also delivers one of the most unwieldy, difficult to deliver lines in Stargate history with “One hundred percent cellular penetration in all five test inoculations”! Try saying that five times fast.

The captive wraith gets a name, Steve, only to die before we get a chance to know him. C’est la vie. Given the circumstances and his push to experiment on the prisoner, I found Sheppard’s “We’re gonna help you” assurance as Steve succumbs to the effects of the Hoffan drug altogether bizarre. If anyone would have adopted this conciliatory stance, it should have been civilian Commander Weir and yet even she sees the logic in Sheppard’s arguments, acceding to his demands for experimentation. When he first mentions it, she brings up the Geneva Convention to which Sheppard counters that if the wraith were at the Geneva Convention, they would have no doubt fed on the other participants. Good point. Ultimately, this enemy is not one that can be reasoned with. Short of discovering a way for them to gain sustenance without feeding on humans (and we’ll come to that later in the series’ run), it’s kill or be killed.

There are, of course, those pro-wraithers who point out that the wraith’s actions are dictated by survival instincts. They’re not evil. And, while that may seem true (although the obvious joy they take in torturing their prey suggests otherwise), I would point out that the Atlantis expedition and the rest of the humans in the Pegasus galaxy are simply fighting back, the result of their own survival instincts.

garhkal
June 12th, 2012, 11:42 PM
I completely forgot this episode, don't know if I'd even ever watched it! It explains why when there was mention of this 'Hoffan drug' in odd episodes I happened to watch later on that I wondered where it came from! :D

It was actually quite a good episode. What a moral conundrum?!

Beckett was great in this episode, he really shines as the conflicted Doctor going against the very oath he stood by. It's the question of how desperate does a person or group get before ethics are questioned and even abandoned in the face of death!

Especially when those taking the drug stand a 50/50 chance of dying from it.
And i agree that this ep MADE dr Beckett.

Jae'a
June 13th, 2012, 07:03 AM
My LiveJournal post (http://jo-r-lee.livejournal.com/58960.html)

Wow, it was a great episode for Dr. Beckett. Great stuff all round too. :)

jelgate
June 16th, 2012, 10:26 PM
This is a pretty good episode. I know the Wraith defenders group usually dislike this episode because of what happened to Steve but given that he would not hesitate to kill us in a second I am not really feeling sad. Was in unethical? Probably but that is war for you and in war you do what you must to survive. Speaking of ethics I love the battle of ethics between Beckett and the Hoffans about the drug and the warning of taking precaution. Compared to the Hoffans, Earth is relatively peaceful. Beckett doesn't have the kind of fear and desperation that the Hoffans have so he can look it more objectively. Its interesting to see how fear of being attacked from the Wraith can cloud people's judgement to do anything to fight back

Matt G
June 17th, 2012, 03:21 PM
Midweek, another ep of Atlantis.

1. It's wasn't that long back that I actually watched this ep, was wierd seeing Sheppard as a Major again that time round.

2. Carson getting gooey with Perna...was Beckett's first big ep.

3. Couldn't remember where the name "Steve" came from.

4. Morally...I described it as a "mess" back in '04. The Hoffans were reckless but I 'guess' it was their choice...they were only harming themselves and our guys were smart enough to not allow them to harm anyone else.

Good stuff.

jelgate
June 17th, 2012, 04:14 PM
4. Morally...I described it as a "mess" back in '04. The Hoffans were reckless but I 'guess' it was their choice...they were only harming themselves and our guys were smart enough to not allow them to harm anyone else.

Good stuff.
As I said in my review I think it was the war torn nature of Hoffan to be reckless. They were deperate to do anything to stop a threat they was murdering thousands of thier people. We didn't have to deal with the Wraith on that scale giving us a fresh perspective

hedwig
June 17th, 2012, 04:29 PM
As I said in my review I think it was the war torn nature of Hoffan to be reckless. They were deperate to do anything to stop a threat they was murdering thousands of thier people. We didn't have to deal with the Wraith on that scale giving us a fresh perspective

This is one of the reasons I was annoyed with Shep saying he'd been on a wraith hive ship and fought the wraith ... which, of course, he did. But how does his very limited experience with fighting the wraith in any way compare to the dozens of years the Hoffans have lived and died and suffered at the hands of the wraith. I felt like slapping Shep for being so self-righteous and condescending about the situation.

ZRFTS
June 23rd, 2012, 01:28 AM
Poisoning the Well

For most of SGA, Dr. Beckett has been the Scottish doctor who's mainly in the background; sure, in many episodes he appears to be doing more substantial stuff, acting somewhat like a male version of those female scientists seen on SG-1 but he's always been in the background. For weeks we've been hoping for Dr. Beckett's big break and well; here it is... And what a break it is.


http://img11.imageshack.us/img11/592/sgabigbreak.jpg
Truly his big break.

Grabbing it's inspiration from the SG-1 episode "Cure", this episode provides the basis for Dr. Beckett to roam around as he does his doctor stuff; showing that he can be more then just the character who's in the background. The aforementioned "cure", the one that will save them all is very notable sci-fi stuff indeed; disregard the fact that it's similar to tretonin, the idea of the drug, the basis of the drug and even the drug itself are essential to the episode as a whole. There's an heir of hope that this drug might work and it fuels the initial scenes with Becket and the Atlantis crew as they work towards developing the drug. We're on the same line of thinking as they are and we're involved in the creation of the drug as they are and that's a good thing because an episode like this requires the viewer to be involved; what would happen if the viewer wasn't involved well they wouldn't connect with the emotional scenes, the drug scenes or even the scenes that happen later on and that would negatively harm the episode. The Wraith that was captured two episodes ago is put to good use (even the threat of the Wraith and their society is put to good use) with his scenes still being awesome and his his role playing a very big part in the episode (with a large number of scenes at that), I just wish that he didn't have to die so soon (he's just so awesome and entertaining) but I guess life is life and they can't keep that wraith forever you know.

Alongside that cure likes moral implications that are the icing to the proverbial cake; it starts off subtle enough, with the moral reasoning being related to test subjects being used, tests being done, procedure being taken, "do no harm", etc. but then it progresses into the willingness to sacrifice people, the disregard for life, the intentions of revenge, the dissuading of it's original purpose and the dedication/obsession to their goal (much of which appear in the second half). The question it raises is nice; how much are we willing to put up with it before we say no mas? Do we always allow these things initially for the sake of survival and the cure, do we regret the decision afterwards when we see the true intentions of these people? It just provides some of the stuff that sci-fi is known for and they fuel alot of scenes big and small; it allows us to get in depth with Beckett's character as he expands and grows and shows off his beliefs as a doctor, it allows us to see the psychology of a person who's been in this situation for so long, it allows us to get into the process of testing, it also allows us to see the life & death situation that plagues from having such things happen in the first place and the fact that they manage to focus it where it's important exceptionally well... that's saying a lot regarding the people behind this episode. The moral implication theme is one of the best themes of this episode, something which defines it and gives it it's voice amongst the other SGA episodes.


http://img52.imageshack.us/img52/5740/sgacure.jpg
Just imagine what this little vile holds.

The SGA team does what they do best with Shephard being gruff, confident and menacing, (with some of his best acting yet; the scenes where he yells out in objection to what he sees might be the pinnacle of his Stargate career.) Dr. Weir being cautious and a very good leader, Ford being a good defendee and Rodney being... surprisingly out of the way, I guess less Rodney equal better episode but I will say that the scenes where Rodney does appear are decent enough. But they're only a sideline to Dr. Beckett who appears in his finest hour yet; for once, he's not trying to be the goofy doctor for once, just the serious doctor with a strong determination; we learn more about his thoughts, his desires, his life, his ethics, well... everything really through his natural dialog; they're diving really deep into a character who've we barely seen and they're utilizing him really well, weaving him into the ethical morals plot they have going on. Additionally, he's even joined by a love interest; a woman named Carson. The two take their romance seriously, providing tons of interaction, affection and sweetness; neither actor feels the need to shmaltz up and every line is delivered very sensibly and the progression of the love plot is also something to be commended, as they progress, the bond grows deeper and everybody seem to realize that this is more then just a forced pairing which makes these scenes all the more worthwhile and it even works out to the point where the unexpected happens, leading to a very sweet scene which isn't mopy and is 100% emotional, even with the plot they have going on. Writers take note, you can have romance and sci-fi together and still have it work.

I like the people who inhabit the planet they visit and the style of architecture that they have; even if it's just something ripped off from SG1, it looks nice and historic with a small hint of high-technologically and dankness to it and it seems like a place I would retire too if it existed. The people are the best of both worlds, intelligent and devoted; they're certainly a bunch of knowledgeable and humble folks and I appreciated their presence even when they went to the morally questionable grey areas, and that's saying a lot. Though we only focus on two at a time, we get attached to these groups of people, the political system that they have and the general idea of the community to the point where they become a presence all their own, feeling sad about the situation they're in. People would of liked to seen what happened next (and there are still a few who wonder about their very fate today) but implication or not, their fate seems somewhat clear and the fact that the Atlantis crew just walks away, doesn't even bother to even interfere with their plans or even help out further just reinforces that; I like that they didn't feel the need to tie everything together a pretty bow with the ending, it's just something that makes the episode.


http://img717.imageshack.us/img717/5029/sgatown.jpg
Sure going to miss the place...

So what else is there to say... This is by far the best SGA episode so far. The concept of a cure isn't original but they manage to utilize it to the best of their abilities to provide something that questions moral implications and ethics as well as provide the basis for a plot which is sci-fi at it's finest; the focus on Dr. Beckett is genius, he's the perfect character to serve the entire basis of the episode and as a plus the writers dig deep into him fleshing out a character who's usually in the background. Sure, some of the stuff isn't original but when it's finely executed like this, does it even matter? One of SGA's finest hours and a episode which shows the true potential of the show.

10/10

Cluas
February 12th, 2013, 05:29 AM
I have to give this one 6 out of 10.
Saw through the plot from the start. Really boring.

Beckett's episode, yes.... But ....

I'm afraid I hate the guy :o

Steve was funny though :lol:

garhkal
February 19th, 2013, 03:42 PM
I did like 'steve'.. Though i wonder.. So far we have had todd, steve and that wraith they captured in the siege... All three were named by Sheppard and i am wondering if he named them people he hates..

Thorthewraith
April 2nd, 2013, 05:31 PM
He might have. I mean I would give my unnamed enemies names of my known enemies I think... Or maybe he DID just pick the first name he came up with...I do that usually.

I really liked this episode, but not for the Atlantisteam and definately not for the bearded guy...
Steve was my point of interest. Since Rising I've been looking forward to the wraith, but not as much yet...
I could almost feel his pain, his anger, his frustration, everything...


I liked the romance blossoming between Carson and Perna as well and I could also see Atlantis' point of view. If you have what you need to make your weapon work...wouldn't you? It's sad that the denying of the Geneva convention lead to the suffering of Steve, but at the same time, doesn't Geneva convention only apply on Earth? I mean, They are in a different galaxy, with (at that time at least) no way back to Earth because of ZPM depletion on both sides.
I don't think the Geneva convention would just go and meddle. And we don't know anything about the IOA at that point. (Oooh I hate them, Woolsey I like, but I hate THEM)

j7n
January 23rd, 2014, 02:32 AM
The Humans denied these people the chance to fight as they saw fit, not unlike how the Assurans responded to Dr Weir: "We will eliminate the Wraith at the time of our choosing."

Overall the episode was okay. I mean all the parts where the Atlantis team didn't act as morally superior or Sheppard joking. Beckett was great indeed.

mrscopterdoc
August 20th, 2014, 09:08 AM
As I said in my review I think it was the war torn nature of Hoffan to be reckless. They were deperate to do anything to stop a threat they was murdering thousands of thier people. We didn't have to deal with the Wraith on that scale giving us a fresh perspectiveinteresting thought. Would we have done the same thing if we were in their situation?

jelgate
August 20th, 2014, 12:57 PM
Maybe but it would still be stupid. They signed away their death

mrscopterdoc
August 20th, 2014, 02:55 PM
They did, but they were desperate. People in that type of situation aren't thinking clearly, which sometimes equals stupidity.

garhkal
August 20th, 2014, 03:04 PM
interesting thought. Would we have done the same thing if we were in their situation?

I know plenty of people who would be willing. While others who would say "To heck with that".

jelgate
August 20th, 2014, 03:15 PM
They did, but they were desperate. People in that type of situation aren't thinking clearly, which sometimes equals stupidity.

Emotions do not excuse it was a poor choice. Part of being a leader is for one to control the emotions when making decisions. Overemotional killed the Hoffan population

puiwaihin
September 27th, 2015, 06:59 AM
No, the Wraith were not attacking at that moment. Kits could have been issued with instructions to take in case of attack with warnings that testing would continue and the serum may be replaced, so keep up with the news.
I totally agree. Actually, why didn't SGA keep the serum as a suicide pill for if captured? Better than getting fed on.

briangreen1984
October 4th, 2016, 06:59 AM
I think it just tells us how desperate people were. It is not about dying, but about feeling like a helpless cattle.

garhkal
October 4th, 2016, 11:56 AM
I totally agree. Actually, why didn't SGA keep the serum as a suicide pill for if captured? Better than getting fed on.

Mybe they were not allowed to keep a copy?